2
25
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1079/11537/APopikaR180806.1.mp3
a31c72321680486a97fccbb762c58367
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Popika, Ruta
R Popika
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ruta Popika (b. 1928). She was born in Lithuania with dual German nationality. She lived through the Russian occupation and emigrated to Germany during the war before making her way to England in 1947.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Popika, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SC: So, this is Steve Cooke uhm, interviewing Mrs Ruta Popika for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. We're at Chaddesden, Derby and the time is 10.45 on the 6th of August 2018. So Ruta if I can ask you to start telling us your memories from that early time and just tell me everything that you want to tell me.
RP: Now the memories really start I think from, I was born in what then was Lithuania the, on the banks of the river Nemunas. Now the river Nemunas is the major river between what then was Germany and Lithuania and it starts in Russia somewhere, I never remember where it starts and it goes into the Curonian, they call it now I think the Curonian Bay or something
SC: Aha
RP: Anyway I lived, we lived there until I was seven. My father's work was customs officer and he did that all the time we were in Lithuania and from there we sort of, it's a long story, we were all born, there were six children, at that time we were only five children when we left there. From there we moved to several places and the first place we went to was Nida and that is on the Curonian Spit, I think they call it now and it's an absolutely gorgeous place, it's on a peninsula that starts from what is Russia now but then was Germany, half of it was German half of it was Lithuanian. So since my father was a customs officer we always lived on the border. We stayed there for three years and we moved to a place called Panemune, now that is again on the river Nemunas and on the other side of the river was a town called Tilsit in German, Tilze in Lithuanian and I can't remember what it is in Russian now, they've changed it completely and we lived there for a couple of years until Hitler started being a little bit greedy, I think, he wanted to take Poland so he said to Stalin now if you don't mind us occupying Poland you can have Lithuania, not Lithuania but the Baltic states and just overnight. First of all Hitler, Hitler also wanted a part of Lithuania minor that is where we lived. This was actually before I think I don't suppose we can go back
SC: Okay it's okay, you come back
RP: It is, that is, what happened first of all when we lived in Panemune, the Germans decided they wanted to have that part of Lithuania, Lithuania minor, so they just moved in overnight and we just saw our father disappear. And what had happened is: because he was a customs officer he had to move straight away to the new border which was now Lithuania and Germany it became, so of course a few days later he sent for the family and we all moved, he had to find somewhere for us to live there so we all moved to Lithuania major and we lived there until the war started actually. shortly and before the war that was when the Russians decided, decided they wanted access to the Baltic sea and they, they just marched in and took it all because the three Baltic states were not prepared for a war or anything like that, which is whether there was any, what happened politically I don't know. And uhm all at once we were under the Russians and the Lithuanian no longer, our ruler was, the president was Smetona at that time, I can't really remember what happened but he I think he'd gone, he left because he must have known that something was happening. We lived there under the Russians which meant we had to go to uhm we, had to learn Russian at school, so I learned some Russian for a while but then the Russians started deporting a lot of Lithuanians into Siberia and with the sort of job my father had, we would have been in line for it as well. So at that time then anybody, any of the Lith, Germans living in Lithuania and because we were born in a part that had gone from Lithuania to Germany and it sort of altered even the French had occupied it at one time years ago, many years ago
SC: Yeah
RP: And the Germans said we want the Germans to come out of Lithuania and into Germany so with my father having six children, six children by then, they felt it would be much safer for us to be in Germany so we registered as Germans because we were entitled, we could do that because that part of where we were born we could be either
SC: Yeah
RP: So we emigrated into Germany and when the war started and the Russians were moved out of Rus, out of the Baltic states and as you know the, the Germans went a lot further than just through the Lithu, through the Baltic states then after, because in Germany we were in a sort of a transit camp, spent a lot of my years in camps
SC: Yeah
RP: Because my father had bought a farm in the way when the Russians came and he had to move away from the border, he bought a farm so we could go back when the Germans chased the Russians out, they sent us back to Lithuania. But they sent us back then as Germans so when the war started actually, no it hadn't started but when the war started going badly for the Russians and the Russians of, badly for the Germans not the Russians and the Russians were sort of oppressing the Germans and the Ger, they were winning over the Germans because the Germans they’d spread themselves a little bit too, too wide
SC: Yeah
RP: And they started losing so of course as the Russians were coming nearer, we felt it was, well my parents felt it was safer for them to pack everything up and move into Germany
SC: Yeah
RP: And we were in a wagon and we travelled in, stopped in several places where we could sort of stay for a few nights. We stayed in Poland in one place for a few months I think even
SC: Yeah
RP: And I can remember while we were there, this is something that I seem to keep on remembering, and there were Jews there in a camp and I know a lot of people went to have a look they were hanging, they were hanging 10 Jews. I don't know what they were supposed to have done but if one did something, they just would hang them
SC: Yeah
RP: But no way would I go so, so many people went to watch it and I thought no. I was, what was I at that age? About 4, 13, 14 I think, maybe a little bit older but I just couldn't do that
SC: Yeah
RP: And from, when the, as the Russians, as you know the Russians kept coming further and further so we kept fleeing further and further from the Russians all the time because we knew what our fate would be if the Russians overtook us, we end up in Siberia. So we gradually moved from one place to another place every time the Russians came nearer and we settled in one place when the war started getting, the Russians and English, they were getting closer to each other and where we were, on one side the Russians were about thirty kilometres, the Americans and English or English and Americans were about five kilometres, so we thought well we are safer to stay where we are because they are nearer. But now this, the English stayed there and allowed the Russians to move on
SC: Yeah
RP: So we were overtaken by the Russians again. Now as far as any, the war itself, the bombardment and that, we avoided most of that because we were always in villages somewhere you could hear bombardment going in the distance, but never sort of very close. So of course, once the Russians and the English and Americans got together, we were under the Russians. So we, my father still, I don't know how it happened that he'd still got a wagon and horses and our belongings, we didn't have that many belongings by then because how much can you, you've got six children and
SC: Yeah
RP: So I don't think we had any furniture but we had clothes and whatever we needed mostly
SC: Yeah
RP: Uh we dec, my father decided that we can't stay under the Russians so we started to travel a bit walked a lot and the wagon, not very far but until we came, we stayed overnight underneath the wagon sleeping there and the Russia, there are some Russian soldiers came there and my father could speak Russian and he sort of started saying we are trying to find our way back to Lithuania, well we were not, we were trying to go the other way
SC: Yeah
RP: And fortunately they believed us, but what was happening a lot at that time as the Russian soldiers were raping women left, right, left, right and centre and my sister and myself we were sleeping under the wagon and they started sort of looking around and the man in charge says, leave them alone they're Lithuanians. So, once they left instead of going, they told us which way to go, well we knew which, which way Russia was. Uhm we went the other way and there was a field there which I think there were American soldiers there and I’d already, I went to grammar school and I had learned some English so my mother said to me go and talk to them. I couldn't speak a lot, but I could speak a bit of English and they let us go in, they let us through the border and that is of course how we got to be on the English side then. How my, my, how my parents arranged all these I don't know, it's really when I think about it I can't imagine how they coped, they found somewhere for us to live they, they found food when we could but while, I found while we were fleeing from the Russians there was this one place where we stayed there were some German women there. Well, we went through Germany that time and there were women there baking bread night and day so that all, because there was a line of nothing but wagons refugees and they were baking night and day to give to the people who were fleeing from the Russians instead of them fleeing from them. They just stayed there and baked, and we found, well, the Germans they were very good to us. I can't, can't say anything really bad but the only thing that they did is they kept my uhm, first of all they kept my oldest brother because he was 16 they took him in the army whether they liked it or not then when we were fleeing from Lithuania, they had stopped my father and my second brother but because my father had got rheumatism they allowed him to go but they kept my other brother and we've never seen them since
SC: Gosh!
RP: So once we were in the British zone they were just my father and mother, my sister, myself and my youngest brother. Yes, only my youngest brother, the other one had, the second youngest he had been killed by a, in a road accident by a bus. It was about a bus going about every week I think but he was killed by one of them
SC: Gosh!
RP: Because they were, they were hanging on to a wagon, you know how children do, they hang on
SC: Yeah
RP: And he jump, one jumped towards the ditch and my brother jumped the other way and there just happened to be a bus coming
SC: Gosh!
RP: On an empty road there's a bus coming. Anyway, this is why we sort of, our family we were just my youngest brother, my sister, myself, my father and and myself. And once we were on the British zone then, uhm this is something we were sort of in account, we kept on sleeping wherever there was any uhm space and this one night I know we were sleeping in a school room with straw, used to be straw just covered up with blankets and we slept there and some American soldiers came in and they were as bad as the Russians raping women and they raped several women there and one of them came up to me that age I don't know whether I was 15 yet, I was about 15. But I started talking in a little bit in English, all at once I became human to him and you know he, we just stood there and talked until some military policemen came in and he just jumped out through the window but he had not, if I hadn't been able to speak English it would have been the most traumatic thing for me
SC: Yeah
RP: I mean at that age
SC: Yeah
RP: And from there on we, oh we were overrun by the Russians again. Because the English and the, well the Allies really, they allowed the Russians to go further so we were under the Russians again and from there we said we got relatives, we got an address in West Germany that we wanted to go there and we were allowed through we had to go on to delousing and all sorts of things but eventually we ended up in a camp not very far from Hamburg. From there I went to a school, there was a Lithuanian grammar school that had opened so I’d rather had to go through Hamburg to the Lithuanian school. During the holidays they started recruiting people to work in England, first just in England my sister came to England then to work in a hospital. Then the following year they were recruiting again, I was too young at that time to go anywhere I was also at school, but the following year they recruited people who wanted to go to Australia, America, England and this, the grammar school I was on we were I think five pupils and everybody was at that age, the men they were about 32 then and I was about 17, 18. And a lot of them were going abroad, the teachers were leaving so the school was closing and I decided I was just old enough, I was 18 by then I’d come to England to work for one year, stretched a bit and that was in 1947
SC: Gosh!
RP: And of course, since then I’ve settled here, got married, married a Lithuanian
SC: Yep
RP: Brought up two children, got a granddaughter
SC: Ah, yeah
RP: And I’ve got, I’m happy here. Sometimes people say, would you like to go back to live in Lithuania? I’ve always said no because my family by then I was married, when Lithuania became independent, my husband had already died by the time Lithuania became independent
SC: Yes
RP: He would have loved to know it to be
SC: Cause that wasn't until 1990
RP: 93
SC: 93
RP: yes
SC: Yeah
RP: 92-93, yes
SC: Yeah
RP: And I know I went as soon as Lithuania became independent, I decided I’d love to meet my in-laws because my husband had got three sisters in Lithuania. His sis and all them, there were three brothers and three sisters and the brothers got away, the sisters were overrun by the Russians. So they were there and I wanted to meet them. So I went to Lithuania but it's just a pity my husband,
SC: Yeah
RP: Couldn't live to see that
SC: Yes
RP: Because my husband died in ‘86.
SC: Yeah, gosh!
RP: So I mean, several years after he died Lithuania became independent
SC: Yes. What about your father?
RP: Oh, my father stayed, my mother died, she, they both stayed in a camp in Hamburg
SC: Yeah
RP: And they spent their life in in a camp because they got nowhere that they were I think getting a little bit too old to work, no they weren't really because my mother was 53 when she died. She got cancer
SC: Yes
RP: We wanted them to come to England and they were in a transit camp actually to come to England and it was discovered that my mother got cancer
SC: Yes, you said
RP: And they wouldn't let them in and she eventually died in hospital there and my father he stayed in a, I think the camps would have had reduced to but it was still in sort of camp conditions until he died, he died 75
SC: Gosh! So, he was there all of that time?
RP: Yes, and my father was nine years older than my mother, so you'd have to work it out
SC: Yeah, yeah
RP: And I’ve settled in England and I’ve got a family
SC: Yeah. But from really quite an early age you were travelling
RP: Yes
SC: All the time
RP: From really I was, where I was born on the banks of the river, oh, that was beautiful for children that was ideal because the house was on the banks
SC: Yeah
RP: And we used to just go down the, down to the river and play and used to be steamships going past with passengers and used to wave to them. I had a lovely childhood there and then even when we went to Nida which still is the border town now between Germany, between Russia and Lithuania and there used to be a lot of holiday makers coming there because this was a lovely holiday resort. But from the age of seven, three years in Nida, then we got to Panemune and then we were there only about six months when the Germans decided they wanted it, we fled into Lithuania and that is
SC: Yeah
RP: Never sort of had settled life till I came to England.
SC: Yes
RP: And then I lived in the hospital for one year, one and a half years I think at the isolate, was the Isolation hospital then and turned to the Derwent Hospital then I worked at the Manor Hospital as in nursing there
SC: Yeah
RP: And worked at the co-op, got married [laughs] and that is how life carried on
SC: Yeah. Well, that's wonderful, thank you so much. I’ll pause this now for a moment.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ruta Popika
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Steve Cooke
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-08-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
APopikaR180806
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:25:18 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Lithuania
Russia (Federation)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1945
1947
Description
An account of the resource
Ruta Popika was born near the river Nemunas, in what was Lithuania before the war. She remembers her family being forced to move eastwards and westwards from Lithuania according to the changing tides of war. Remembers the occupation of the Baltic States by the Russians. Mentions various episodes of her life as a refugee: German women baking bread and handing it out to the refugees fleeing from the Russians; the hanging of Jews; Russian soldiers raping women and being spared because she was Lithuanian. Tells of her 16-year-old brother being taken into the army by the Germans. Tells of American soldiers raping women and being spared because she spoke English. She spent many years in a German transit camp and then moved to Hamburg, where she attended a Lithuanian grammar school. Her parents spent the rest of their lives in German transit camps. Explains how she never had a settled life before she moved to England for work in 1947.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
anti-Semitism
childhood in wartime
displaced person
evacuation
Holocaust
home front
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1074/11532/APickwellBW170317.2.mp3
40826da8f9379e7b40076305fb265bb1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Pickwell, Beryl
Beryl W Pickwell
B W Pickwell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Beryl Pickwell. She grew up in Lincoln during the war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Pickwell, BW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HD: This is Helen Durham conducting an interview for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive on Friday, the 17th of March 2017, commencing at 11.25. I’m here to interview Mrs. Beryl Pickwell. Hello Beryl. Thank you ever so much for allowing us to come and interview. What I want to talk about first of all is your childhood and life before the Second World War.
BP: Oh yes. Well, there’s a lot of story with that. Uhm, my mother had, when she, she got married uhm, because she became pregnant by meeting up at Gainsborough with one of the footballers at Gainsborough as she was working on the pub at Gainsborough and that’s how they met. Mum, who knew nothing at that time about sex or anything else, became pregnant so she got knocked away from her own home and had to go and stay with her husband eventually, it was her husband, they got married and uhm she had her first child and when the little life was being born, she was so naïve that she said to her husband’s mother, when do they cut me to get the baby out? And the mother-in-law said, they won’t cut you, it will come out, and my mother said, you can’t possibly do that! And then, when it was, she, the boy was born, she said, oh my Lord, I didn’t think that would happen. And actually my mum had five children in, one after the other, she had three boys first and then two girls and by the time I came on the front, they were all teenagers, yes, the one that was nearest to me was my sister Vera who was fifteen, so mum had had all these other five [laughs] before I came. Now, suddenly out of the blue, mother thinks, oh my God she’s pregnant again, how could that have happened? And it’s been a total joke in our family ever since that mum and dad had been on a friend’s party and it was one of those nights when they got drunk and apparently they stopped in a passage on the way home, had a little bit of the humpy dumpy and that became me. So, I’d got five grown up children living there, three brothers, two sisters, and me as a little baby, running up and down on the settee at night when I was waiting for them to come in from the pub or wherever they’d been and I won’t go to bed without them taking me to bed, so they used to take me to bed and I used to say, I’m not going to bed when I [unclear] and used to shout downstairs at the lads, come and fetch her, she’s waking us up [laughs] and I used to say, I want to listen to the big crossings and the little crossings [laughs], it’s hilarious really and so,
HD: Did you live in Lincoln?
BP: Yes, Clifton Street, in Lincoln, which was very, very near the railway line, the one that is still there and also very, very near the big common, which was there and in fact you could see the big common from out of our bedroom window but as usual they messed it up when they pulled down all the houses around there to make places for a place like Tesco and stuff like that. But, yeah, I was a naughty little girl I think, but spoiled to death by my sisters and brothers. Yeah [laughs].
HD: So, a very happy family.
BP: Yes.
HD: Yes.
BP: Yes.
HD: And then, the war was declared in 1939.
BP: That’s right.
HD: Do you remember that?
BP: I do remember it very well because before we actually got the actual declaration, I realised that my dad and my, two of my brothers who were working within factories building war material, there was something very strange going on and I was only about nine, eight or nine o’clock then, not eight or nine o’clock,
HD: Yes.
BP: That age, and my dad came home from work in all his working clothes cause he wanted to hear what was gonna be announced on the radio, as we had the radio in those days. And he came round and I was sitting on the table with mum washing me legs as I said before, when we got the message over the radio and my dad said, oh my God, what’s gonna happen now? So my Dad and two of my brothers were immediately put on, you’re permanently working on your factory, you were not gonna be in the army, you see, because they needed to make the works, so
HD: Which factory did they work in?
BP: Uhm, Clarke’s Crank works, my mum, my dad rather, and Ruston and Hornsby me brothers. Yeah, and my dad’s was working in, possible [unclear] street actually nearly it was, it was a massive big thing that he was making, it was huge, and it was something to do with, uhm, some ship or something and it used to make a terrible noise and it was huge and I used to take round to my dad, go in there with all the noise rattling to take a little jarful, a tea potful which I still got the teapot of, little plastic teapot, to take me dad a drink and let him have that and he did alternate shifts with Les, my oldest brother, so mum, me dad did the day, and Les did the night and they were at it all the time and then Ron, the other one, he was at Ruston and Hornsby and he was working there and then Vera, the sister who became the next one to me, she got into one of the works there and she was making like little, you would call them to be allowed sandbank things in the past, but they weren’t, they were used to make like a hole in the ground and they used to put sand and then sort of something in, they were making some chemical of some sort,
HD: Right.
BP: And she worked there for a long time. They used to pull her leg, she met her boyfriend there who she eventually married.
HD: Very good.
BP: So,
HD: So, it was a busy household.
BP: It was a busy household, yeah, and my mother was always wanting to work, she liked working, she was very hard working, she would’ve done with all those children, I think I was the bit of a trouble, you know [laughs].
HD: So, you were nine when you were [unclear]
BP: I was nine and Mum knew that there was going to be an announcement made, Dad knew there was, I mean, he came in from work, to listen, put, I was sitting on the table having me legs washed and what not, and listened to it, heard it all, we are at war with Germany, and I didn’t know what was going on but of course they did and they were so upset about it and oh my God, you know, now what’s it gonna be like and off we went from there.
HD: And did any of your brothers, were they ever called up? Or your sisters?
BP: No, because they were working in the factories, so they,
HD: So they never
BP: No, they were on jobs that they’d got to do so they didn’t get called up, no, and the same with me sister, she chose to go and work in the factory,
HD: Yeah,
BP: And the younger one, she worked in an office somewhere I think but nothing that needed anything and I was just sort of left from that, eight years old, wasn’t I then? Eight years old, you know, sort of wondering what was going on all the time. And the first time I ever saw, for example, the gas masks, I thought, my God, what’s this sort of strange thing that we’ve got? And we all had gas masks. Now, by this time, I realised there was something going on and it was something really important that my dad was always talking about and what was happening but I didn’t really know what was going on but I did know we were at war with Germany but between being eight and ten I sort of grown up a little bit, and I got, I don’t know, a test at St Andrews School in Lincoln and when they picked out people that they thought would be better going up to a better school, I got a place at South Park High School for girls which in those days was very, very posh [laughs] and I was ten when I went up there and of course it was wartime but my mum was so determined to get me the exact school uniform so that I had to look beautiful, you know, and most of them up there came from very rich families cause they paid to go to that one, which is a bit like LST, LSD now, and I loved every minute of that then. Well, of course we had these gas masks given to us which were horrible things and we used to have to carry these to school with us in a bag, you always had to carry your gas mask up to the school cause it was wartime of course and occasionally while we were up there the sirens would go, the war sirens [mimics the sound of the siren] like that sort of thing, and when that happened, we used to have to run like mad into the top field in the school where they’d made some air raid wardens, little air raid wardens, we’d all have to go in there,
HD: Were they the Anderson shelters?
BP: Similar thing to that, yeah, covered in soil though to make them
HD: Camouflaged.
BP: Yeah, that’s right. And we used to have to rush into that and get in that until we could all come out again, you know, and all that sort of thing, so,
HD: What was your experience, when you all had to go in?
BP: Well, we realised it was war, but we were hoping we weren’t gonna be bombs dropping on us and one thing or the other, but one terrible thing did happen, one of the lovely girls who was at school with us, she unfortunately, was actually killed by a bomber, it was on a Sunday afternoon, it was in one of the streets off Skellingthorpe Road, just coming up to the top where it becomes, where the chemist is, that sort of thing, and the bomb dropped right on their house and killed her and the family and we found out about it at school the next day and we had a special prayer at school and everyone was, were in tears that she’d been killed and she was only about my age, at that time, so that was a very near one, you know, for us but it was terrible that one.
HD: Did you have many bombs, dropped on Lincoln?
BP: Not a lot, we had, the one I remember was the, they bombed one of the film places in Lincoln, that was the one that was nearly opposite St, now what is it? Still there, the church that’s still in High Street, oh dear, what’s the name?
HD: St Mary’s?
BP: No, it’s not St Mary’s, uhm, now what’s it called? It’s still there, the church is still there, as you go up Broadgate, it’s on the left-hand side, as you go up Broadgate,
HD: Right, oh, uhm,
BP: Now, what’s it called? St, my husband was a boy singer in it and I can’t remember the name of it.
HD: It’s St Hugh’s, the Catholic church?
BP: No, no,
HD: No,
BP: It’s before you get to the Catholic church, on the other side of the road,
HD: Oh, St Swithin’s.
BP: St Swithin’s, that was it, yeah, that’s the one and yeah, what can I tell you about that?
HD: Yes, there was, was there a bomb there or?
BP: No, what, at St Swithin’s church?
HD: At St Swithin’s.
BP: No, no, there was no bomb there, that they, they had a big boys choir and they had lots of stuff there but it wasn’t bombed there, no, no
HD: No. Can you remember any of the other places in Lincoln [unclear]?
BP: I’m just trying to think, yeah, one of them was, it was a cinema in Lincoln and it was eventually became after the war, it became a place for, uhm, offices and that kind of thing, but this particular show, which I can’t remember the name of, was smashed to bits, yeah, that was bombed to bits, that one, you’d have to find out what the names of
HD: Yes, is that where the ABC used to be?
BP: No,
HD: No, not that one
BP: No, the ABC was near the river, that was the one that was there for donkey’s years.
HD: Yes.
BP: It was further in the land than that one, it was, not that far from where I’ve just told you about
HD: St Swithin’s, yes
BP: The church, it was somewhere near there and that was bombed and destroyed completely, that one was. But we didn’t get a lot of bombs actually dropping on us because they were trying to get onto the factories and particularly they were trying to get on Ruston and Hornsby’s but they never got it because they used to get it up, mixed up with the railway line which was next to it so the bombing was coming over, they were thinking they were hitting the railway line but they weren’t, you know, they weren’t getting into the works and that was the good thing, none of that got, got done at all, it always stood intact but the railway, the railway line they got a few times. In Lincoln itself, the only ones I can remember was when the young girl was killed in just off Skellingthorpe Road and the one that was smashed down, the theatre
HD: Yeah.
BP: [unclear], in this square which I can’t remember
HD: Saltergate.
BP: It might have been Saltergate, yeah
HD: Yes, so
BP: Yeah, definitely, that was that.
HD: Going back to the air raid shelters,
BP: Yeah
HD: That you used to go to,
BP: Yeah
HD: When you were at school
BP: Yeah
HD: When you went in, how long were you there and what did you do whilst you were there?
BP: We used to run up as fast as we could get there, we used to run up with the gas masks with us, not necessarily on unless they told us to put them on, we got the sign you see originally, the noise that was going [mimics air raid siren sound], that was the quite one, that was the one that they coming but they not rise home ahead cause they were two completely different sirens, completely different. If you got the first one, we knew they were about, if you got the second one, they were above you and you’re gonna be in real trouble so we knew that, we rushed up there and got into there, waited in there till the all clear went and then we came back to school again.
HD: And were you in there a long time?
BP: Yeah, well, we used to be in there for about an hour or three quarters of an hour, something like that, until it was all clear, you see, you couldn’t go until you got the all clear sound.
HD: And what did you all do when you were
BP: Well, just talk to each other and hope it wasn’t going to drop on us and you know, and
HD: You didn’t carry on your lessons there?
BP: No, you couldn’t very well do the lessons in an Anderson shelter. No, there were about three or four of them on that top field and we just used to have to run up there as quick as we could and then when it was all clear, we all ran back to our proper classes and what not, you know, all in our nice posh uniform [laughs].
HD: So life changed dramatically then when war started.
BP: Oh yes, yes, yes.
HD: Did it change in your family?
BP: Uhm, well, it did because, I told you that two of my brothers, three, [unclear], yeah, two of my brothers were working in, one working in Ruston and Hornsby, and the other brother working with my dad at Clarke’s Crank works, now they took it in turn, me dad doing the day and me brother at night and they had these massive things going round and round and round and God knows what they were for but they were very, very important and my brother that worked at Ruston and Hornsby’s, he was making stuff as well and then the sister Vera, she went to work at the same place and she was making these model things out to what they heck they were for but she did and the only one sister of mine that didn’t have to do anything during the war cause she was younger, she worked at one of the, film places in High Street and she used to go round with the biscuits and that sort of stuff, you know,
HD: Yes.
BP: But me personally, in my case it was a question of getting ready, getting off to school and see what’s happened. The trouble came most to my mother, really, because when I was five years old, on my very first day to school, at the Baby St Andrew’s School, it was a real icy day, real cold, I went out onto the playroom and slipped and fell and fractured me thigh and of course in those days they didn’t know much about doing anything but anyway, they rushed me up to the hospital as fast as they could, stripped me of clothes off me, and my left leg was cut from the top to the bottom there twice because they couldn’t it right and I was in fact in the hospital for getting on for two years. So, it happened when I was five and I didn’t come to school till I was seven.
HD: Really? [unclear]
BP: Yeah, and I, I was in plaster of Paris all the time, my dad used to push me up, [unclear] up, [unclear] up to the hospital in a big thing, they wouldn’t let the children into the children’s wards to look at you at all, they used to bring a [unclear] round at night, and they used to bring warm milk which I can’t stand but I had to tell the nurse that I don’t like that and so then she used to bring me cold milk cause my mum had a go at her. But I had three operations, but they were never allowed to come in to actually see me, they used to sort of wave to you through a window.
HD: So, you didn’t see them for two years?
BP: No. And the only person that used to come up was the headmistress from the infant school and she came up with some little books, you know, a for apple and b for, for me to learn to read myself, which I did, and I had this fascination for little teddy bears as well and so I got tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of these teddy bears and the nurses used to laugh at these teddy bears and when I was actually sent back home again, in plasters and I think starmer legs and I got photographs of that and I was in trouble for ages before I could take these casts off and stuff, but that brings my mum into the war there and uhm, I was at home but then, when I was about seven-ish, I actually started to being able to go, get to school but walking [unclear] things on me for ages. Now, what happened was, where this involved my mother, all the other brothers and sisters were all at work, I was still at home and I was about, seven and a half, eight years old then, when knocking on the door one day, comes the man from the school checking, why isn’t your daughter at school at the moment? She’s old enough to be at school, she should not be here at home. We’re going to, you know, she’s got to go. So my mother, being telling you what she thought, she said, bugger you, she said, lot, she says, are you gonna take all her things down during the day? Are you going to take her knickers down to go for a pickle and put them back up again? She says, bugger you lot! She’s not going till she’s able to do from the hospital, she said, go away, go away! So, they said, well, it’s still not stopping you from going to work, to my mother, so she had to take work. So I got looked after by the younger sister, who was backwards and forwards working to the, one of the office, uhm, film places, yeah, where I told ye, uhm, I can’t remember what they were called cause I forget now but I shall remember eventually.
HD: [unclear]
BP: Yes, that’s it,
HD: Yes.
BG: Going round with the chocolates and stuff, that’s it. So, she used to look after me at home and Mum had to go to work. She got sent to work at Fisons fertilizers, which was right near where the horseracing used to take place in Lincoln and when she was there, she was the manageress of the canteen, so she used to do the food and what not. While she was there, there was a group of foreigners, German and Italian mainly, in the care of two English soldiers that used to be brought into the café, well, canteen it was in those days, into the canteen for them to get a drink and there used to be coming with them, with a slice of bread with a bit of something on it, I don’t know what, a bit of not butter or anything like that on it and these foreigners used to have to sit in a separate part while they got a drink and ate this sandwich and then my mother was so sorry for them, and she said, oh, the poor devils, she says, so the man who was looking after them, the sergeant that was looking after them said, we’re at war with them, so my mum said, we might be, we, no need to starve them and she used to go and give them a bit of meat on the plate. And they all called her Mama, oh Mama, and you should have seen the most wonderful things they made for her, the Italian people made gorgeous things and gave them to her like, you know, ships in a bottle and stuff like that and she had them for ages.
HD: Right.
BP: Yeah.
HD: Do you know anything about these foreigners? Where did they, why were they there and?
BP: Well, I mean, where they’d actually come from I don’t know. They didn’t tell us anything, we weren’t told anything like that, you see. You did, they just were brought in and that was it, and what they were actually doing somewhere was something like, seemed farming, they were doing some farming or something or other under the help of the people that watching them, yeah. They were doing the farming. And Mum was there ages until after the end of the war. Yeah, there we go. I remember going in there when I was at school and it was school holidays and I went down to have my lunch there and all these Italians came in, you know, and [unclear] you’re that bad and [unclear].
HD: Oh, and they went in everyday, did they?
BP: They used to come in, yeah, they used to be brought in during the day, in the morning, just to have the sort of little drink of whatever and then a little bit of hard bread with next to nothing on it which my mother was really sorry for and added bits to it all the time, which they appreciated and gave her all the bits and bobs and called her Mama, yeah.
HD: Oh. Did she ever keep in touch with any [unclear]?
BP: No, because they all went back to where they came from, you see, yeah, so she didn’t keep in touch with any of them, no.
HD: Did your father ever meet any foreigners?
BP: Well, yeah, the foreigners that, well, no, he did, no, he didn’t meet the foreigners, no, because he was working all the time, you see. He was either, he was home in bed, catching up on his sleep or working, so he didn’t meet people, they didn’t take him into the factories cause they didn’t want him to know what was going in the factories, did they?
HD: No.
BP: So,
HD: And did you uhm during the war, did you see the planes going over or hear them?
BP: Oh yes, could you hear the planes going over, that was the thing. When the first alarm used to go off, you know, I can’t remember exactly [unclear], sort of a wailing thing like [mimics a wailing sound] you could actually get it if you [unclear], and then we’d say, oh heck, they’re here again and then if they were right over head it was [mimics a deep droning sound] like that, you know, big noise, really big noise, and of course there used to be people walking round all the time, to make sure that all the windows had been blocked up, we’d have all the windows blocked up with wood, completely, and there was always people walking round the streets, keeping their eye that there were nobody with the light on. And if anybody had got a light on, the, these people that were working that way, [unclear] put that bloody light out! Because of course you could see from above that where we were, so we had every window blocked off with wood, like wood things over the tops of the windows in every room and if you needed to go to the toilet which was outside, we used to have to just creep through till we could actually get there and funnily enough talking about toilets, on one Sunday, there was a daytime attack, and we were really worried cause we were right opposite Clarke’s Crank Works and they were trying to get to these places you see but I was in the toilet which was outside when the alarm went off, and it was the strong alarm and I flung myself down to the toilet floor [laughs],
HD: They were right above you.
BP: Because I couldn’t get in the house to get into the shelter, now all of us outside the houses had the shelters built, we all had shelters built in all the roads you know.
HD: Right, ok.
BP: Yeah.
HD: Was that in the garden or?
BP: No, no,
HD: Just in the road.
BP: In the roads by the council, they were all big brick, uhm, things that we went in where there was room for to sleep or whatever if you needed to,
HD: And so all the families went in, too?
BP: Oh yeah, yeah, they were in, all the streets, they had the big thing, especially when they were near somewhere where they knew there was likely to be danger, but we tried not to use the, them too much because we didn’t like them, yeah.
HD: What was it like in there?
BP: Well, it was fusty and it was, there was some room to sit and some room to lie down and some room to go for a wee and that sort of stuff but we tried not to go into it. The place we used to go into when the alarms went off was under the stairs, always under the stairs, in the cupboard under the stairs, that
HD: And you’d all fit in?
BP: We used to get in there, yeah. And the funny thing once, it was coming up to a Christmas and a friend of mums was getting a chicken ready for cooking and Mum and I were there when this alarm went off and they made you [mimics a droning sound] and we all had to dive into her cupboard under the stairs with the poor old chicken sitting on the table while it all cleared up and we could get through to get it sorted out, it was terrible, I remember that [unclear], been hid under that, yeah. And my dad and mum used to go and stand outside the garden and do, well, it was a backyard actually, to see when they could see the planes going over, and my dad always used to know whether they were right over Ruston’s or on the line and they never got there, you know, they never got to Ruston’s, because they got muddled up with the railway line.
HD: Yeah.
BP: But there was lots and lots of bombing, and there was one incident in particular which infuriated me. I was, I say, about elven at the time, cause I was up at South Park High School for girls at that time, and my sister Jess, who’d been at home when she’d got one little girl called Pat, that was my, one of my sisters a little girl, and her husband had gone to Grantham to work on some foundries at Grantham, so she came to stay with us. Well, there used to be an extra-large bum thing, it was an awful thing, there was a name to it and people would remember but I can’t remember the name of it but it used to come over with a terrible noise, really loud noise and it was, frightened people to death because if you could hear that above your head, you knew trouble was happening and what annoys me that particular day, my sister was sleeping in bed with me and her little girl and me dad ran up the stairs and took me sister’s little girl, left me upstairs to come down on me own so I was a bit annoyed about that. But as it went on this damn thing was going [makes a humming noise] over your head and as soon as it stopped, it had blown up and it had blown me dad’s garden up, right at the top of Canwick Hill, where all the thing is, right at the top,
HD: Yes
BP: Blew up there,
HD: And that was a German
BP: A huge, big, special, can’t remember what it was called but somebody will, but it was massive, it wasn’t a plane, it was been sort of brought in by no pilot, if you know what I mean,
HD: Right.
BP: Yeah, it was a bombing thing that I found out about and it used to come in and as long as it as making a noise, we knew we could here it, but if it stopped, oh my God, it’s gonna drop on us, you know, but fortunately it didn’t.
HD: Oh. So, there was a bomber up there at Canwick?
BP: Lots, lots of bombs, yeah. Going that way. They used to go all over the place but mostly they were trying, the ones with pilots in were trying to get the ones down here. The other ones, they didn’t care where they dropped them, they dropped it to frighten us, I think, more than anything.
HD: Yes, yes. How did you feel, as a child, growing up during this time?
BP: Well, uhm, how did I feel? Well, I used to listen to my dad and my mum talking about it a lot, you know, on the paper or on the radio as it was in those days. And they used to talk about places that had been bombed and this, that and I remember them talking about Coventry and when Coventry was completely destroyed and I do remember that and I do remember, I’ve been twice back to Coventry, since then, since I’ve been, you know, grown up, to see the actual alterations they’d done to it, but I said to my grandchildren when we went, don’t go into the actual cathedral, look at the old stuff that was left there originally and the, uhm, cross is there amongst the old stuff and I said, if you go and say a prayer, say it there, not inside, say it there, because it was totally destroyed. So, we knew from the newspapers what was happening and actually we were really very lucky cause we were, you know, having all these things being built but they never actually got to us, you see, they kept missing us and apparently when the airmen were going out and coming in from all the bombers around here, dozens of them, weren’t they and all over the place, uhm, they always used to look for the cathedral, as this is the place where we coming from and that is the place where we coming from. And then the thing that hurt me most of all of course was Bill, when Mum asking them round for the Sunday lunches you see, Mum and Dad used to go into the uhm, the pub on a Saturday night, it was, how the hell was it called? I talked to you a few minutes and I’ve forgotten it now, it was, what the hell the pub was called, it was next to the crossings, across Canwick Road, which then led up to the Broadgate [unclear] and I used to get taken there but shoved in the kitchen with a glass of lemonade, which I detested, sitting there with no television in those days, no radio, rats or cats and stuff running about while my mum and dad were in the actual pub itself sopping and drinking and going to and they fetched me in when the time had stopped for this closing so I used to get to actually see one or two people and this is where Mum and Dad had got to know Bill and the other lad, uhm, he was the other lad who came from, uhm, I told you, didn’t I? Where did I tell you he came from? He was a black lad, he came from, not Trinidad, I can’t remember, it’s in my book anyway.
HD: Jamaica?
BP: Jamaica. Jamaica, that was it, yeah. And Mum used to say, you poor lads, where are you stationed at? Now, they weren’t supposed to tell you where they were stationed at, you know? No, no, you, can’t tell you, and it was very convenient for him to come in on a Saturday night because in those days the bus stop was dead opposite the pub which, if you went further up, you’d get the railway, do you know where I mean, don’t you? And this pub was there and they used to go in there and Mum asked them if they’d like to come for Sunday lunch and twice they came for Sunday lunch. It was Bill, Bill Owen, the one that was the love of my life at that time, and the other lad who came in, was the fellow from Jamaica, Louie I think he was called, and they used to come and have Sunday lunch and they always went out the front door and I, not the back door, the front door, and I always used to go to the door to see them out, and this Bill, William George was his name, I found all that out later, William George Owen and he came from just outside London and I used to go out to the front door to say cheerio to him and I was thirteen by then gazing at him and he was eighteen and he used to say, when I’m back, I’ll come back and marry you, you know that? Which of course he never did and you got the poem, do you? And I can remember vividly the thing that really struck me most I think, anything I can ever think about, I knew about bombs and I knew about planes and I knew about being killed but somebody that I really cared about, you know, as much as that, at thirteen you see this gorgeous young man who we had no idea was at Skellingthorpe aerodrome, that’s where they were, and we didn’t know that they’d be going that night on a bombing thing you see and the Jamaican lad didn’t go because he’d got an kidney infection so he was lucky not to go off on that trip, somebody else went, Bill was the navigator and the one that actually got away, got dropped out, was the bomb aimer, he actually managed to get out, before the whole thing was blown up, and he was kept prisoner of war for the rest of the war. Now, I did have but I searched high and low and can’t find it, but my daughter thinks I took it up there when I went up there the first time, which was a letter from the one who did escape, telling them that he’d been a prisoner of war and where he’d been and what he’d been doing. Now, I thought,
HD: Can you remember his name?
BP: Uhm, no, I can’t.
HD: Because he was the bomb aimer.
BP: He was, he was the bomb aimer and he got out the front of it, yeah. But I can’t remember his name, no, you’d have to go back to find the Owens and that sort of thing to find who they were but they were at Skellingthorpe aerodrome and when I found out that what had happened and what not and as I grew older, and I got a boyfriend, and I always remember Bill to this day, I went and had a little plaque made for him which is in, still in Skellingthorpe, just inside Skellingthorpe, a little plaque in memory of him and I used to go and take flowers down there, uhm, even after I was married, you know, my husband realised that, you know, it was just what I was teenage [unclear] and so, that was, that was very, very sad, very sad. And there used to be a lot of famous songs in those days like Vera Lynn, you know, I’ll be seeing you, but you know I [unclear] this famous song that I used to love, it was, now let me think, I’m gonna tell you the name of it [unclear] because I’ve asked some friends of mine who live opposite who have got all the wartimes music cause he used to do it. I said, just lend me them sometimes, I can listen to them all again but I do listen to them now I get the opportunity and there was this particular song, I’ll be seeing you, it was called, I’ll be seeing you in all the old familiar places [singing] and that sort, I’ll be looking at the moon and I’ll be seeing you [singing], you know, one of those sort of things, and I used to be singing that all the time, you know, I mean, you know, the small café, park across the way, and I was virtually singing to Bill, you know, all the time. I went out to be fortune told, when I was much older, much older, and married and we went to see some old lady I can’t remember where it was and she was doing my reading, [unclear] laughing, thinking it was a joke, and she says to the, out of the blue, she said, by the way, I’m telling you, she said, I don’t know whether you know anything about this but, she said, there’s a young man in Air Force blue standing at the side of you. I said, oh my God! And I would be twenty odd then, I thought, my God, who’s that? She says, he’s there, he’s at the side of you. I found strange. Yeah,
HD: Yes.
BP: Very, very strange. So, anyway, that was that, so then, what happened then? We went on, oh, the day the war was over, that was a fantastic day.
HD: Yes, tell me about that.
BP: A fantastic day that was. When we realised the war was over, you know I told you we had all the shelters, the brick shelters, well, the young lads were teenage boys by now and me a teenage girl by then, I was fourteen by then, and that would be right, would it? What was the year the finished?
HD: 1945.
BP: 1945.
HD: Yes.
BP: I was born in ’31, yeah, I was thirteen,
HD: Yes, yeah.
BP: Yeah, so I was fourteen and I used to go round there and the lads used to grab the girls and take them in the shelters and kiss the girls and all that sort of thing and in Cooling Street, which was there but is no longer there, there used to be a place at the bottom where a fellow did a potato business and we often during the war, used to go into his potato sheds if the thing was going as well and I can’t remember the name of the man, I know he was a well-known bloke, but when they found out about it, everybody went mad, and all the windows in Cooling Street had got the windows right open and music coming out and people were dancing and all this you know and it was really exciting that was that we realised that it was over,
HD: [unclear]
BP: Yeah, it really was, you know, it was one of those really interesting times there, yeah
HD: So,
BP: My husband by the way, the war was still on while he was in the army, he was, uhm, part, no, he was not called up until quite late because he worked as a post office engineer and he was doing piles, you know, big things, and
HD: [unclear]
BP: [unclear] there and digging, so he got time, not called up straight away, but towards the end of the war, they did call him up then, and he had to go up and he was taken up to, because he was doing that kind of work, they wanted that kind of work, and he was taken to one of the most famous places where [laughs] they were all, they were all the soldiers, which I can’t remember the bloody name of, but there’s loads of them but he went to one, up North Yorkshire, and he was there a long time and he was in the Royal Signals, he became a member of the Royal Signals, and he was very lucky because they were deciding on this particular day that got rows of them out and the group next to him was sent abroad but my husband’s group were kept here and they were doing all sorts of stuff with listening to things coming in and messages and all sorts of stuff, and he was actually taken ill while he was there with some infection or other he’d got and he was taken down to the hospital down south, somewhere right down towards or really near the coast and he was in a hospital there for about five weeks. I’ve got a box full of letters that he’d sent to me all the time he was in the army.
HD: Really?
BP: Yeah.
HD: So, where did you meet your husband?
BP: I met him at the Drill Hall.
HD: Oh, the Drill Hall.
BP: Yeah, oh, this was interest as well, the Drill Hall in those days was the place where everybody went to and it was absolutely packed out and we had a fantastic band and it used to be full people that were, the soldiers if there were, it was the night off, and then off course the Americans came. So, of course all things changed when the Americans came and I do wish I could find this, I’ve been looking for this all over but I think my daughter’s got it, which I’m really mad about cause I’ve looked [unclear] churned it out but anyway I’ll tell you about it instead, so the Americans arrived and all the young girls decided they’d put Max Factor on and big lipsticks and all that kind of stuff, but I didn’t, I wasn’t that sort of person, I just didn’t bother, and I couldn’t mum let me wear earrings evening, no, if she knew I had any earrings I had to get a clout, no, you’re not having that, you can’t do that and don’t let me find you coming out of that Drill Hall with any of those Yanks and all this that, she used to play hell she did. So, anyway, we were at the Drill Hall, and that’s where I met my husband, I’ll tell you about [unclear] first, then I’ll tell you about the Americans. So, was up at the Drill Hall, with a crowd of friends, and there was a crowd of lads that I knew and they were a bit rough and tumble lads, they were too young to be called up, sixteen, seventeen ages, and we stopped, I stopped talking to him, I’m wearing a green dress I can remember that vividly, and I was talking to him a bit and he said, oh, hi, you got to talk to us for a bit, this four or five lads, I said, I’m not talking to you, rough lot, I said, I have come here to dance not talk to you lot. So this young lad called Benny, who now lives in Canada, and wanted my husband to go with him, that, now that’s another thing I’ll tell you in a minute about that, [unclear] tell you about the Drill Hall first, and I said, I’m not stopping with you lot, you can’t dance, I’m [unclear], so, this lad said, Benny said, [unclear] can dance, so, I looked at this young lad, seventeen year old lad, in a lovely black suit, dressed up, lovely black hair, that sort of lot to do and I said, what, can you dance? He said, well, do you want to go round then? Those were his words [laughs] excited, wasn’t it, charming. Do you want to go round though? [laughs], oh well, come on then. So, that’s when I started dancing, that’s when I first met him, you see, at the Drill Hall. And then, it was Christmas Eve, and I was fifteen, so, whichever year it was, you work that out, he was seventeen and we arranged to meet up the next day and which was Christmas Day and I lied to me mother and told me mother that the war was [unclear] of course that I was just gonna meet a friend from school, but I meant to meet him in the Arboretum in Lincoln for about an hour chatting at the Arboretum [laughs] and my mum never knew but anyway that was that and he didn’t say I’ll meet you again so therefore I thought, well, I’m not very interested in him and he’s not very interested in me but funnily enough the following night which was the night after we’d been on the Christmas now, we were at this group of lads house again, because the lady that used to come round delivering the milk, was a black lady, I don’t know where she was from but my mum really loved her, she was called Doris, and my mum used to ask her to come in every morning for a cup of tea when she was delivering the milk and she said to my mum, why don’t you let your Beryl come and see our lads? She wanted to get me with one of her boys you see. [unclear] I said, I’m not going there, and she says, oh, we are having a party on, she said, at Christmas, why don’t you come? I said, I’m not going, I’m [unclear] a bit too shy, I’m not going to be there, so she said, this was the night after I’ve met Set for the first time, so I went down to her house and she was the milkwoman and I knocked at the door, really shy, [unclear] and she says, oh, I’m ever so pleased you’ve come, Beryl, anyway I walked in and who’s sitting in there? There is these group of lads and this bloke that I’d met the night before and been in the Arboretum with and he was kissing a girl when I walked in so I was a bit, I’m not very happy about this [laughs], but that was where it sort of all started from, you know, from that. So, anyway, that was that and so, let me think of what else what we did. Course food was,
HD: I was going to say, the rations.
BP: Ah, now that, I can tell you a lot about rations,
HD: Yes, rationing.
BP: Now, clothes rationing, now, that was, if you got clothes, wanted to get some clothes, you were to sell your clothes rations, give it to those people who couldn’t afford to buy clothes, so my Mum, was a devil, she was, and she, Vera, my sister was married by then and the people who lived next door to her, they were really hard up, and my Mum used to go round there and buy from them all their clothes coupons and so we could get clothes because I was wanting clothes and South Park uniform and all that so mum did that, she used to do that regularly, and it used to go into the shops in those days, when you went in with your thing, they used to say to you, [unclear] to the counter [whispering] so they did that a lot as well, you see, they’d have a bit of [unclear] if you went there regularly and I remember when the first bananas came in, at the end of the war there, and we went round the market and I used to go on a Saturday morning, I was working for the civil service at that time, and it was a Saturday morning for me to go and get the shopping for me mum, and we went down to the market and the butchers and they used to say, do you want a banana [whispering], these was people behind the counter, you see, and if you’d been a [unclear], you got some bananas, which was, [unclear] used to give you some, you see, so we got bananas before most people did.
HD: Yeah. Did you ever go hungry? Did you ever feel hungry?
BP: No, we didn’t, because a) because my Dad had his garden, and he kept chickens, he, every type of vegetal that he could find, potatoes, the whole lot, you know, all that sort of stuff, meat I suppose was the thing which we were short of, it was always the thing that we were short of, and eggs used to be quite short of as well, and we had limited amount for, tickets for it but when my mum [unclear] working at the canteen, she used to be very naughty and come home at night with a plate full of stuff, you see, that hadn’t been eaten up during the day, so we, we didn’t go hungry at all.
HD: No.
BP: We were very lucky. Neither would we, did we go unclothed because she got, she got coupons, she used to buy the coupons and the woman that she bought the coupons from, because my mum was working, that particular woman, come and cleaned the house for me mum while I was at school and she was at the [unclear] at work and when me dad was at work fulltime which he was, it was daytime, cause he did shifts with me brother and I was off school if it’s a school holidays, and stuff like that, I used to do me dad’s dinner for him and that sort of stuff [laughs],
HD: Oh.
BP: You know, we used to have such fun and laugh about that, I loved my dad. And I remember that, you know, we all went to this big [unclear] as I’ve said to you at the end of the war, you know, I left, [unclear] much to talk about it, me dad to talk about it, I went to talk about it with all the girls and boys, you know, we were fifteen then and those were the days sort of thing. Fourteen and fifteen anyway, coming August, wasn’t it? When it was
HD: Oh yes
BP: When it came up so it was, not quite fifteen, I was fourteen, fifteen in October, yeah,
HD: Yeah, yeah.
BP: So, that was all interesting.
HD: Yeah.
BP: Yeah, was all interesting. Lovely music in those days like Vera Lynn and really sad music. Now, this is an idea for you, when they actually get this thing all organised, I think a real essential thing, this has come to my mind, while the people are looking round there and there’s gonna be a café and God knows what up there, for Heaven’s sake, we want wartime war Two, World War Two music, not anything of todays, we want World War Two, I think that’s essential, because if people didn’t know it, they’ll soon learn it and the songs were so wonderful in those days, I mean, I’ve got a great list as long as my arm, probably on the table there and on a bit of paper, but that’s what needs to be there, definitely, I think that’s absolutely essential, to be there.
HD: You were telling me about the Drill Hall and then you were telling me about the Americans.
BP: Oh God, yes, don’t cut cut, I forgot to tell you this.
HD: Yeah.
BP: This was, you don’t [unclear], not have anything to do with the Americans, I do wish I got this, I’ve looked all over for it, now I realise that [unclear] at my daughter’s house, I’m really peed off with that, so anyway, we were there, I was with Ses but I’ve fallen out with him, we used to fall out like hell actually but we did get back together, at the time we weren’t going out together and then we were going out together and then we weren’t. And his friend actually, Benny, wanted him to move to Canada with him, to go to Canada and Ses said, I don’t think I want to, and he stayed at home in England and Benny went to Canada and apparently they did a decision between them and this must have been just about coming up to the end of the war or whatever, it was a decision, was it gonna be Beryl or Canada and to my husband Ses it was Beryl, so I stayed here and he went to Canada and he still rings me from there, from Canada, when my husband died, he rang up, nearly [unclear] did die, and he got to know already from people in Lincoln. Anyway, talking about the Drill Hall, so the girls were all done up and done up and they came, all the Americans came in in their fantastic uniforms, and there were a few Polish people, soldiers there as well and we liked the Polish soldiers very much for staying on our side, weren’t they? And they were there and they had fairly rough uniforms but the Americans, [unclear], and big, big band and all that kind of thing and the jiving and of course before they came, the Americans, we were all doing swaltzes and what not, as soon as they came, it was the jiving you see, and the people who were sort of going round and seeing if everything was alright, stop that you two, you’re here to be dancing, not here to be jiving, stop that, but we all did and we took no notice of them. And there was an old chap who came every single week to the Drill Hall in his wheelchair just to watch us dancing and he really enjoyed it, he was a wonderful chap that chap, and anyway, on this particular night, I’d had a fall out with Ses for some reason, although that was quite regular, all our life I think [laughs], but anyway, uhm, this chap came up to talk to me, and he was just an ordinary chap in ordinary clothes, and he said, I don’t know why you picked me, to tell you the truth, but I still don’t know, but I know what I wore, I was in a red, bright red and white striped dress which was a very full one at the bottom and really posh at the top which suited me a lot because it fitted me, you know, my face and that, was quite good looking actually, and still am actually, I tell you [laughs], you wouldn’t think I said that would you? So, no, that’s what I keep telling them, but I am, anyway so, anyway, this chap came up and said, I’m doing [unclear] a bit of interest but [unclear] sending back to the States, I said, oh yeah? I said, what’s all that then? He said, well, he said, I want to let the people in the States know what’s happening with the Americans over here, you know, and he said, do you know much about them? I said, no, I don’t know much about them at all, I said, my mother won’t let me have anything to do with them at all, I said, I don’t like. So he said, uhm, oh, he says, well friends, I said, yeah, but I don’t know anything about them but I said, I can tell you one thing, he said, what? I said, five of my girlfriends have all got dates with them. These were the girls who were made up to the and five of them did marry them, did actually marry, moved off and married to them. And one of them, called Yvonne, who was really quiet, she got married and had five children in America, when she got over there, yes. We didn’t see any black Americans though at the Drill Hall, they were all white or probably a little bit but not much, I thought they were really good looking if they were black. As I was uptown once with me mother, going into a shop and this tall, handsome black bloke, I used to look at [unclear], good looking man, I thought, oh, he’s a real good looking man, sharp, he’s black and he’s American [unclear] so I had a look at him, shut up. Anyway, carrying back to the Drill Hall, so this chap was asking me about the Drill Hall and what we knew about the Americans and our with the Americans sitting in and this, that and the other and bits of information about the girls and that, I said, where’s this for, this for? I said, cause I’m not supposed to be here, I said, my mother don’t let me to the Americans, where the Americans are, so I said, I’m not supposed to be here, so he said, well, he’s not going to be here if they put this into the States, so I said, are you sure? He said, yeah, so he says, I wonder if you should do something for me, I said, what? He said, I want you to dance with that American young lad in that pretty frock you’ve got on, that red bright strap frock, so I said, are you sure he’s not going to America? I’m absolutely sure. So, anyway, this sergeant, American sergeant came, and there we are, dancing like hell, you know, going to and all the girls [unclear] had to pick her to do it, anyway [laughs], so that was that, so I thought, me mum won’t know anything about that, [unclear] I shan’t be in any trouble. So, the following weekend, after having been said it will not be published in England, I’ve got this, [unclear] trying to find it to show you cause it would be fantastic and anyway I thought nobody will know, so Mum went into the paper shop on a Saturday the following week, to pick up the papers, and [unclear] and I knew, someone had told me, oh my god, your picture’s in! I said, oh no, no, no, surely not, oh I’ll be killed, I’ll be killed, don’t, there it is, it is, I said, you’re telling it now, so it goes, my mum goes in the shop, not with me, thank God, he opens his mouth, he said, by God it’s a good picture your Beryl dancing with that Yank, in’t it? And my mother said, what the hell are you talking about? And [laughs], and there on the double page in this magazine is Beryl dancing [laughs].
HD: Were you in trouble?
BP: Yes [laughs], except I told her that they just asked me to do it for America, to send to America. So I said, oh, I nearly dropped dead when that chap told me it was in the, oh, I thought, my God, I’m gonna get kicked in the backside forevermore, but then she quite laughed at it, really, cause it was such a good photograph of me.
HD: So, forgave you.
BP: Yeah, she forgave me but she said, shouldn’t be doing that! You shouldn’t be, I told you not to, to keep away from them! And then one night the young man once, one of the Americans once asked if he could walk me home, so I thought, oh, this is going to be trouble as well, cause, you know, that’s no good, so I said, oh, I don’t think so really, cause I was always a bit worried, you know, about people, other than I got that feeling that the Americans were a bit forward sort of thing, but this lad was a nice lad, and I can’t remember his name, he was an American from Texas, I remember that, very well, from Texas, in fact that place where the fellow got shot, the American
HD: President,
BP: What was his name?
HD: John Kennedy.
BP: That’s it, yes, he was from the same town. Texas, somewhere there. Anyway, he said, can I walk you home? I said, yes but not all the way, don’t go right down in case my mother sees you [unclear]. So, I said, oh dear, don’t she like us? I said, not really. So, I said, he said, can I meet you tomorrow night then? Tomorrow during the day, to go to the cinema, I said, yes, alright, that’s alright. Anyway, when the day came, I must tell you about the bomb as well, I’m telling you forever, you will be here forever. Anyway when the day came, the, now what was she, my sister’s daughter, my niece, she used to be there all the time, I told you [unclear] her husband was working at Grantham, and I saw this American standing where he was supposed to meet me and I chickened out after that, I’m not going, [unclear] me mother knew that, so I said to Pat, this was the daughter, I said, can you go and tell that American that I’m not too well and I can’t come today? [laughs] So she did. Poor lad. And then, so that was another one with the Americans when I was, I daren’t have anything to do with the [unclear], anyway, I thought, I was stuck up, and cocks up, and you know, better uniform and who the hell are you kind of thing. And most of the girls that were done up to the eyebrows couldn’t get there quick enough, you know. but I’m telling you about, have you heard about those things that came and they just buzzed and as long as it was buzzing, it was alright and if it stopped buzzing, you were in real trouble. You know about that?
HD: Oh, right, ok then.
BP. There was this huge big thing and I don’t remember what it was called, somebody will know, and it was awful sound, it was [mimics and intermittent humming] and it made this terrible noise and it was a real killer that one was, and this is where me sister Jes and Pat, the one I’ve just been talking about, were sleeping in my bed cause her husband was working at Grantham doing thing and this was going over their head, our head and dad said, oh my God, it’s one of those, get, let’s get downstairs quick. So, he runs to get us downstairs quick but he did, he got me last, he picked me granddaughter and he left me last, I’ve told him that hundred of times when he was, you didn’t damn well take me. Anyway, when it cut off, it cut off exactly where that bomber place gonna be now, right at the top of Canwick Hill, that’s where it exploded, right on me Dad’s garden, and what not, right at the top, and he could hear it coming over. So it just missed us because we lived not very far from there, near Coltham Street, Cooling Street was only at the bottom of the hill really,
HD: Yes.
BP: So we had a bit of a lucky escape there.
HD: Yeah.
BP: But.
HD: So, we talked about when the war finished.
BP: Yeah.
HD: What happened after the war then? Did you all just get back to normal routine, as it was before or,
BP: Well,
HD: Were there many changes?
BP: I think it [coughs] depended. Depended whether they were injured or not, of course, that was one of the things, but they came, if they came back in one piece, most of them easily got jobs because women had bene doing all the work. You see, the women were working in all the factories and come back absolutely filthy, that sister of mine who met her husband in the factory there and so most of them got jobs but now, what year was it when the war ended?
HD: It was ’45.
BP: ’45, so I would have been sixteen then. I was working at that time at the post office, I was working for the telephone manager’s office [unclear] actually, that’s what I was doing, and I worked there a long time at the telephone manager’s office, and then I went into the office, the civil service I was doing, had to do an exam for that, which I did, and the school exams as well and I did the civil service exam and got into the civil service and as I worked in the telephone numbers, how much it cost people at Ruston’s and so to and then I had got moved into one that was for wages and stuff like that, which was much more interesting, and my husband who’d been in the army and had always been with the post office, he came back to the post office, but he worked with the, putting up new lamps and all that sort of stuff, and trying to get telephones in, there was desperately need for telephones in those days, and you couldn’t get one for love of the money and you had to put your name down for can you get me a phone or all that, I was dealing with a lot of that as well. We, and my husband at the same time was working for the post office, and this bit’s really funny actually, he was digging down somewhere near one of the poles and by per chance and by the fact that Ses has been able to do it for it, my mother had got a telephone and nobody anywhere near us had a telephone but she got one and a crafty you see, from somebody who worked there, and everybody used to come to our house to see if they could make use of the phone but Ses was working this particular night and doing something down there and he picked her phone call up on the line,
HD: [unclear]
BP: Part by accident, but then he was dafted off, the silly devil, to tell my mum that he’d heard her talking to a chap on the phone cause my dad was dead by then and I was furious she was going to report it or God knows what [laughs].
HD: So when did your father die?
BP: My dad, oh, my dad died, oh, let me think, he was only young actually, he was sixty two, so if I was born, if I was born in 1931, and he was, he was knocking on, won’t he? He was when my mother had me I would be thirty odd, so he must have been sixty, about sixty two I think, and what happened there was, it was very sad actually that I knew there was something wrong with me dad and the people at work in the foundries knew it was, something was wrong, he didn’t seem to look well and he was all sitting down and he was always, you know, wanting a drink and stuff. And I used to go up to the garden with him and he came in from work [unclear], he looked awful and I was married by then but I was and I had a house near me mum and I’d come up to see her and no children by then, we didn’t have any children for a long time after we’d got married but I came what’s wrong with me Dad? So she, I said, he’s got to go to the doctors, so he went to the doctors, for the first time, he should’ve been going for donkeys years, and he’d been diagnosed with sugar diabetes, and he looked awful that night, when he came back on the Friday in the chair and he was sitting there and my mum said, I’m gonna give you a couple of scones with a bit of sugar, I said, you’re not, Mum, no, no, you’re not. Where have you been? I said, he’s got sugar diabetes. You are not giving him that, I said, that’s no good to him. Anyway, the next day, they fetched him up, took him up to the hospital, no, on a Sunday they took him up to the hospital, on a Saturday, as I lived in the same street, I went up to look after him and he was in bed, oh God, he was ill. He couldn’t even get out of bed to pee, so my mother won’t have anything to do with it. She was a bully woman, my mother, bloody awkward woman really but knew what she was doing when she was awkward, and my dad wanted to pee and she won’t, oh I’m not, I said, keep out of the way, so I went in, I said to me dad, stay where you are Dad, I’ll get the pot, get your bits in here, I said, I’ll look after you. And I said, to me mum when I came down, and I said, this is serious, me dad needs to be at the hospital. So we got him up to the hospital on the Saturday. The next morning, we got a message from the hospital, can you come up, he is very ill. And I was still living in the same street as them, with me husband, and I rushed up to tell me mum told me with her phone, the only one we’ve got that somebody had sent a message that can you come down, you’re needed up to go up to the hospital. So I went down to me mother’s and I said, just going to have a quick look in the Bible, Mum, and she said, look in there, look in there, and this is Goodness truth, and I opened it and the first things that went between the eye, it said, and they buried him. And I said to me mother, there’s no point in going, me dad’s dying and she said, don’t be ridiculous, she made me go up there with him but by the time we got there he was dead. Just like that. And the Bible told me. Yeah, we have buried him. I can remember that to this day that was awful, yeah, terrible. I could shed a tear there, surprised I don’t shed a lot more actually, me poor old dad, yeah. My mother, she was a funny old bugger, she would, she liked all the fellows and she had lots of fellows after me dad died but I didn’t, I didn’t want anything more to do with them. But, yeah. So,
HD: You’ve had a lot of experiences
BP: Oh my God, I could [unclear], yeah. Was at hospital from being first at five at school, and not coming out till I was seven, with callipers on all the time and I’ve got loads of photographs of those upstairs and tonnes of photographs of the whole family I’ve got, that I found the family history actually, yeah, on that table there and my book are [unclear] there as well and lot of interesting stuff in that as well as a matter of fact but some of it has been sort of cut back a little bit but a lot of it is interesting and you know, it was, yeah, it was very hard going really and before when I was a child, as I grew old, as I got caught in and me mother used to be standing at the end of the passageway, come on, who are you with [unclear], it was always the same bloke, it was always the same that I came home with, and he played table tennis, he was a table tennis fanatic, and so I used to, during the week nights, he was always playing table tennis at this club and I used to meet him afterwards, when he left there, and funnily enough, when he died, which was about eighteen months ago now, when we had him in his coffin, I said, I want him to look good, cause he had cancer and we knew he’s got cancer and we knew it was coming and we got him in for the last four days, had his life here, but on a ward bed and all that, and I was singing songs to him, I can remember that as well, [unclear] bit of another tear now, anyway this particular night, I was on the stairs, this has nothing to do with the war really but it’s life, isn’t it? But I was at the stairs and the Marie Curie people were here and she shouted, I think you’d better come down. Anyway, I came downstairs and as I came down on the last breath, that [unclear] it up but I was telling about putting him in his clothes in his coffin, they said, do you want to [unclear] him? I said, yes. What’s he gonna wear? I said, I’ll sort that out. And my daughter wouldn’t have anything to do with it, she was terrified and she was terrible when her dad died, I think it always is when your dad goes. Anyway, so I said, he’s wearing his table tennis shirt, his table tennis jacket, his shorts, his plimsoles, I said and here he’s having his bat and ball so she said to me, at the [unclear], shall I remove that bat and ball before he goes? I said, no, he’s gonna play up there when he gets up there cause my young son [unclear], he was in that road accident when he was sixteen and died when he was eighteen, so he was up there, I said, Matthew was up there waiting for, to come for a game of tennis [laughs]. Yeah, oh dear. What a life.
HD: Oh. Well, thank you so much for sharing all these memories.
BP: Oh, I can tell you hundreds.
HD: Very, very kind of you and it’s fascinating.
BP: I’ve got loads more poems, you know.
HD: Oh, have you?
BP: Yeah, I could show you one or two? Do you want a look?
HD: That would be lovely. I’m just going to terminate the interview now.
BP: Yes, no problem.
HD: At 12.45. Thank you Beryl, thank you very, very much.
BP: That’s ok.
HD: Thank you.
BP: I, don’t forget I want the music of the war
HD: Yes.
BP: If anyone puts the other on, I’ll play it [unclear].
HD: Yeah [laughs].
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Beryl Pickwell
Creator
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Helen Durham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-17
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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APickwellBW170317
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Pending review
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01:19:10 audio recording
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eng
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
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Beryl Pickwell lived in Lincoln during the war. The youngest in a family with three brothers and two sisters, she remembers the day war was declared. Her father and two brothers worked in war factories, Clarke’s Crank and Ruston and Hornsby. She fractured her thigh when she was five, on the first day of school and spent two years in hospital. Remembers the first time she saw a gas mask, which she had carry along with her to school. Vividly describes the sound of the siren and Anderson air raid shelters at schools. Tells of a schoolgirl being killed during an air raid, when a bomb dropped on her house and hearing the terrible news when he was at school the following day. She explains how the air raids were targeting the railway lines but hit the factories instead. Remembers when a cinema, near St Swithin’s church, was hit by bombs. Tells of clothes bartering and food rationing, although she did never fall too short of food. She enjoyed spending her time at the Drill Hall, unbeknown to her mother, and she ended up dancing with American soldiers and a picture of her was taken and appeared in a magazine. Tells of when her parents used to bring servicemen home from the pub for the Sunday lunch and how she fell madly in love with one of them. Her mother used to work at the canteen of Fisons fertiliser company and gave some food to German and Italian prisoners of war. Tells of a huge, unknown aircraft making a lot of noise and exploding on top of Canwick Hill.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/921/11529/APescottSM171018.1.mp3
42ca6713ac5e82b8b008ab682176172e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lawson, Homer
Harold Lawson
H Lawson
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Susanne Pescott about her father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Lawson DFC (b. 1921, 1544881, 177469 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and album. He flew operations as a navigator with 10 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Susanne Pescott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lawson, HA
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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SP: This is Susanne Pescott of International Bomber Command Centre, talking today about my own father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Homer Lawson DFC. Today is the 18th of October 2017. My father, Harold Arthur Lawson was born 24th of August 1921 in Salford, Manchester. His parents were Arthur and Emilia Lawson and Arthur was a piano teacher. He also had two brothers, Arthur and Stanley. He went to Gresham Street School and was an altar boy at the Church of Ascension in Salford. After school, he went to Grammar School and worked for Acme Welders as an engineer before he signed up in 1941. He was aged twenty and he signed up at the recruitment centre in Padgate. I’ve actually got the letter that was sent from the Air Ministry, I think it’s really interesting that in this letter dated 22nd of September 1941, in the end paragraph it says, in wishing you success in the service of your choice, I would like to add this, the honour of the Royal Air Force is in your hands, our country’s safety and the final overthrow of the powers of evil now arrayed against us depend upon you and your comrades. You will be given the best aircraft and armament that the factories of America and Britain can produce, equip yourself with knowledge and how to use them. I can’t imagine what a twenty-year-old, his reaction would be to that, but I should imagine it’s quite daunting to have all that pressure suddenly seen. So, he started his training around the end of 1941 and he was trained to be a navigator and the training was at Scarborough, many crews were based at hotels in around Scarborough at this time, the Grand Hotel, which is still there today, was where a lot of the exams were carried out, not sure the exact hotel my father stayed at, but it would’ve been around that area. His nickname, as I said in the entry, was Harold Homer Lawson, he was nicknamed Homer and that links in to his role as navigator, as he was always seen as bringing the crew home. After his initial training, he moved to number 9 AFU in January 1943 to start training on Ansons and this was at Llandwrog in North Wales, which is now Caernarfon Airport. I think he did well to survive the initial training there as there were very high losses during this time on the Ansons due to its close proximity to the Snowdonian mountains. After there, he moved up to Scotland to 19 OTU which was Forres in Kinloss and here he met up with his Canadian pilot who was Johnny Hewitt who actually ended up being a lifelong friend as they kept in contact after the war as well. While he was here, they practiced lots of things, like cross country training, fight affiliation, high- and low-level bombing missions and foundation flying and formation flying and on here he was on both Ansons and Whitleys. In 1943 they were moved to a conversion unit, it was number 1663 and this was based at RAF Rufforth in Yorkshire and Yorkshire was where he was going to remain to carry out all his operations. Here he met his magnificent Halifax bombers, this is the plane he would complete all his operational tours on. And finally, in November ’43 he was posted to 10 Squadron and this was at RAF Melbourne in Yorkshire. 10 Squadron known as Shiny Ten, and completed quite a huge number of operations from there. His crew whom he met and crewed up with were Johnny, who I mentioned, Johnny Hewitt, he was Canadian, he was the pilot, my dad was the navigator, the bomb aimer was Erwin Bayne, known as Paddy, and he was from Ireland and, F Wheaton, I don’t know his first name, was the wireless op, Sam Smith was the mid upper gunner, and known as Titch to the crew, S Leonard, again I don’t know his first name, was the flight engineer, and M Grey, another Canadian, was the tail gunner and he was nicknamed Blondie. So, it was a bit of a baptism of fire for the very first ops, I can only imagine how the crew felt when they were told it was going to be Berlin, so the 29th of December they at 5.10 set off and that is 1943 to complete the first operation and it is part of the Battle for Berlin. So during this operation, they encountered and shot down a Junkers 88 and then returned to Melbourne 7 hours and twenty minutes later and found that the tail plane had a lot of flak holes in it. This was really to set the tone really for most of their tour of ops as they had several more encounters with German planes and shot down a further two during the thirty-eight ops. So, after the initial baptism of fire, it went a little quite during January and February but again started to get busy in March with several night operations over France, the crew also started to do a lot of minelaying operations, a very different role and quite a challenge for navigators because there weren’t any landmarks and talking to many navigators that have done from around that time, they tended to pick out the navigators who were good because of getting the exact location, so really proud that he was picked out for that. Moved on into April ’44, lots of missions over both Germany and France and that included missions to Essen and Dusseldorf and both of those missions, they were actually caught in searchlights and following an electrical storm on another trip to Karlsruhe they had to land at the emergency airfield at Manston as the engine cut out as they were flying over the east coast. In May the crew were attacked by a fighter over Mantes-Gassicourt so quite a lot of interaction with enemy fighters. But the busiest month [unclear] was June 1944. A lot of mining to start with when, throughout the Hague and then on D-Day, my dad and his crew took off at 2.55am to part, take part on the gun batteries at Mont Fleury, these were overlooking Gold Beach, and this was in preparation for the D-Day landings, his logbooks actually says, the second front started on that actual article. So talking to another veteran, Ken Beard, who was from 10 Squadron, and he set off from Melbourne only three minutes before my dad, so he’s seen exactly the same things, and he said, they weren’t told any details, other than to ensure that they didn’t drop their bombs early, and when they got over the Channel they could see exactly why and that’s because there were hundreds of ships sailing across the Channel at that time. It didn’t stop there on D-Day, they had another operation later that day, and they took off at 22.30 and flew to Saint-Lo where the Germans were based, they had to fly very low at two thousand feet. The rest of the month kept busy, very high activity with a lot more minelaying and started to get some day as well as night operations as well. On the 15th of June, on a trip to [unclear], the plane was once again in combat with the enemy, another Junkers 88, they managed to set his port engine on fire, but the plane cylinder head broke on the return journey making the starboard outer US as it says in my dad’s logbook. It’s worth noting here that the plane they were flying on at this time was a Halifax III, it was known as the Ol’ Ram, it had a fantastic nose art painted on it, which was a picture of a ram smashing three swastikas and painted by one of the groundcrew whilst it was at 10 Squadron. So, the plane was seen as lucky cause it was ZAJ with J for Johnny as the pilot, so they were quite pleased to get that on the majority of their operations. On another raid, on a daylight ops to Noyales on Chausseur, the starboard engine again had problems on the way down in but they carried on on their mission and feathered on return to make it home. You would have thought that might have been enough activity in June but then again, 28th of June, on ops to Blainville the crew had actually three combats on that trip and destroyed one Messerschmitt 210, the logbook actually reads, it hit the deck three minutes after the starboard wing was set on fire, so, a very eventful June which continued into July, at the beginning of July doing three trips over to the V bomb bases at Saint-Martin-L’Hortier, two of these night raids and one day, flak particularly heavy around this installation, the Ol’ Ram, the plane came back from one trip with flak holes in the port tail. I think it must have been quite difficult going on the, on these V bomb trips to Saint-Martin-L’Hortier on one of the flights I know that it’s reported that one plane dropped its bombs on another Halifax squadron and it actually crashed and killed all the crew and on another trip one of 10 Squadron’s own planes was actually shot down, so I can’t imagine having seen that on one trip, the courage they would have to have to go back day after day to the same destination is a very special sort of courage. The Ol’ Ram was hit more by flak on trips to the various railyards and then on the 20th of July the very last ops for the crew was a trip to Blowtrop and here they had a petrol leak on the port inner and the port was US again referred to in my dad’s logbook and the ammo tracks caught fire so a very eventful last trip. So, the crew completed thirty-eight operations and my father, I am very proud to say, was awarded the DFC in November 1944, I’ve got the original press article and that reads, it was given for gallantry and devotion to duty in air operations and actually refers to throughout an exact, throughout an exacting tour of duty, this officer has displayed exceptional ability as a navigator, and cool courage in the face of the enemy, on four occasions his aircraft has been engaged by enemy fighters and in the ensuing air combat three hostile aircraft have been destroyed. So, after they’d finished their operations at Melbourne, they went back to Forres, did more training and flying, this time on Wellingtons, and then ended up back in Yorkshire, at RAF Rufforth at a Conversion Unit. In May ’45 my dad was moved to 77 Squadron and at this point they were based at Full Sutton and he had a new pilot, Flight Officer Pickin and they were on Halifax VIs and then started training on Dakotas and this was ready for preparation to fly them to the Far East to support the Burma campaign. Lots of practice of supply dropping and glider towing and this was done at Broadwell and they finally set off on the 22nd of September 1945 on route to India. The route took them via Libya, Sedam and Yemen into India and then took them from the 22nd of September until they finally arrived at their destination on the 1st of October. October ’45 shows that the main trips they did were around India and the Khyber Pass and supply dropping and bringing troops back. I have a copy of a letter that my dad sent to his pilot, Johnny Hewitt, when he got the, the information that he was going to be sent over to helping the Burma campaign, so I’ll read a little bit out of this, so it just says, I left Rufforth and was posted here, 77 Squadron, ex Elvington, remember the time we all went to Elvington, and that will refer to a time when 10 Squadron had to pick up some planes for an operation and borrowed the ones from 77 Squadron and he also says that he was here on V E Day, didn’t even get one op from here where we are now on transport and I am converting to Dakotas in a couple of months. Talks about training and constantly lectures with the Far East and Burma and tropical diseases and learning about different forms of navigation again on the stars. It says as well to help with being able to navigate by the stars, they’ve wired off the Gee and H2S so that they can only use the stars to navigate. One of the comments he’s put in his letter, says, well, it looks very much that I shall end my life in Burma or some place, you can imagine me under a mosquito net, scratching elephant bites and sweating horse feathers beneath some tropical sun. So, I don’t think he was particularly looking forward to that tour. The logbook continues with lots of daily activities but then on the 22nd of November 1945, the logbook just stops, no idea why cause not like my father [unclear] to leave things unfinished but he has, I know he returned home and was demobbed in late ’46 but no more detail at all. After the war, I know he was taken back by his old employers and worked in engineering all his life, becoming a chief estimate with a company called Acro that then became known as Thomas Store. 1950s he met my mom, Maureen Chilton at Belle Vue Dances which is in Manchester. My father was strict Church of England and my mom came from a Roman Catholic family so you can imagine that wasn’t an easy ride, both sides of the families refused to accept the relationship, so on New Year’s Eve in 1955, my mom slipped out, carrying her wedding shoes and they got married at Manchester Registry Office with one friend and getting a member of public off the street to sign there as witness. And mom and dad went on to become great ballroom dancers winning many medals, so they early started at Belle Vue Dances [unclear] through the rest of their dancing years. Unfortunately on the 12th of September 1975, my dad died very early of a heart attack and he never actually spoken of his war years and the remarkable feats of bravery that he’d shown and really wish we could turn the clock back and hear those stories direct from him and actually you know, let him know how proud I was of him and what he did. I think in a way this is why I’m so privileged to be an oral interviewer for Bomber Command’s Digital Archive, I can hear these stories it makes me realise the sort of activities my dad would’ve been involved in but also to keep them for future generations and let them have the opportunity of listening to a family member recount those stories that I never heard. My research into my dad started about three years ago when I was looking into family history after about a year of research and talked to my brother he asked, would the logbook help? [laughs] Well, clearly that opened up a whole new avenue and it helped immensely. Unfortunately none of his crew was still alive by the time I was researching but I did manage to track down the daughter of his pilot in Canada, Johnny Hewitt, my mom had pulled out some old photos and there was a letter in there from Johnny from 1975 and it had arrived with my mom just after my father had died so really just being put to one side and it was saying that Johnny’s daughter, Pam, and a friend were going to be coming to Europe on a trip of a lifetime and could they met up with my dad and stay with them whilst they were over here. I don’t think the letter was ever replied to unfortunately because of the timing, so I started to look into the letter and try to find a phone number and but I couldn’t, I saw an address so I wrote to this address, didn’t get any information back after a couple of months, so I decided to phone all the J Hewitts I could find around Ontario [clears throat] just to see if I could find, if Johnny was still around, the pilot but again no joy. Think I must’ve been searching a few months each night and just looking on the internet, doing little searches with different names and I finally came across an article in a small Canadian paper, the Aurelian Times, it was talking about a Johnny Hewitt in the cross hall of fame and it had a little quote from his daughter saying that she hadn’t realised how important he was to the cross or how good he was because he didn’t shout about those things that he did, just like he didn’t shout about his time in World War Two and then I see that the daughter is called Pam, and I think, could this be the link that I was looking for? So, I emailed the editor of the paper and asked him to pass my details on to Pam, a week went by and then one night suddenly an email popped through, just saying, I am the Pam you are looking for, still gives me goose bumps now talking about it, but that started up a great correspondence with Pam. I sent her a copy of the letter her father had written, she’d never seen any of his letters so it was quiet precious to her and she let me know that she actually did come across and do the tour of Europe and she actually stayed with my grandparents, my dad’s father and mother who a lot of the crew went to stay with when they were up in Manchester anyway so they were all well known to them and Pam did a little bit searching and to my surprise she found three letters that my dad had sent in 1945 and 1946 and gave a real insight into his life and the sort of things that they were doing during the war. I think one of the things that quite surprised me from it was almost desperation from my father wanting to do another tour with Johnny and the rest of crew and said he got the crew together and could they all do another tour together, and the thing that just clearly showed the bond that they had and how difficult that must have been breaking up after all they’d been through and you know, despite the risks, they would still want to get together just so that they could keep that, you know, comrade and friendship going and on that. So I think whilst nothing can replace talking to my father about his time in the war, the letters, you know, filled such a void there and also talking to the veterans from 10 Squadron where I’m a member of the association and they can really bring it to life with several of the veterans being also on the same trips that my dad did. So, I hope that one day, you know, maybe I’ll come across a recording of his crew and until then I’ll keep my search continuing, so I’m hoping that people will find this of interest and useful and that maybe one of the relatives of my dad’s crew and the crew of the Halifax III ZAJ the Ol’ Ram will be able to find out a little bit more about their families, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Susanne Pescott
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-10-18
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APescottSM171018
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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00:22:23 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Susanne Pescott talks about her father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Arthur Lawson DFC, who worked as an engineer before joining the RAF in 1941, where he served as a navigator. After completing his training, he was posted to RAF Rufforth and from there to RAF Melbourne on 10 Squadron, with which he flew 38 operations. His first operation was to Berlin on the 29th of December 1943 where they shot down a Junkers 88, for which he was awarded a DFC in November 1944. Among his various operations, particular relevance is given to the ones in June 1944, when they targeted a gun battery in Northern France in preparation of the D-Day landings and shot down two enemy aircraft. At the time, he was flying on a Halifax III, known as the Ol’ Ram for its particular nose art. In May 1945 he was posted to 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton, where he trained on Dakotas in preparation to fly to the Far East. In October 1945 he was then posted to India to drop supplies and bring back troops. She recounts her efforts made to find her father’s pilot, Johnny Hewitt, and getting in touch with his daughter.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
France--Neufchâtel-en-Bray
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943-12-29
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1945-10
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
19 OTU
77 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
C-47
Distinguished Flying Cross
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
mine laying
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
nose art
Operational Training Unit
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1069/11525/APeelPAG170831.2.mp3
5b6150f7cc72cd0cfb86b61f26afc8e6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Peel, M G
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Philip Andrew Gervase about his father, Michael Gervase Peel. He flew operations as a pilot with 44 and 227 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-05
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Peel, MG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 31st of August 2017 and I’m in Southampton with Philip Peel. We are doing a proxy interview about his father Jarvis, although during the war he was called Mike. What are the earliest memories do you think your father had of life?
PP: He grew up in West Kirby, I remember him talking about going on holiday to Anglesey, they were quite, his father was a, had been a cotton broker and had been pretty wealthy but lost his money in the Depression, in the crash. He tells the story of getting the very first phone line, private phone line between Manchester and Liverpool, something like that, but I think they’d been quite, the Peels were associated with cotton there, but they lost money in the Depression. From looking at photographs of him he had, seems to have had quite a nice time, a family of, three of them he was the youngest.
CB: And where did he go to school?
PP: He went to prep school [unclear] which is local to the, funnily enough my brother ended up probably through that teaching there, many, many years later [laughs] but he went there I don’t know that much about what he did there.
CB: And how did he come to go to St Edward’s Oxford?
PP: Because it was a tradition, I think he was the eleventh or twelfth Peel that went there and his mother knew, or grandmother knew the original warden or something like that so there’d been quite few generations that had been there so it’s totally automatic, both his brother went there and he went there.
CB: And how did he get on academically and from a sport point of view?
PP: He’s always liked sport, so there’s pictures of him doing steeplechases, photographs rather, I, he was a sportsman right the way through into his nineties, I mean, he was playing squash in his eighties and still continues to play, no, I mean, he might have stopped squash in his late seventies I think, but he continued with tennis, and presumably it was his eyesight wasn’t good enough, so my guess is that he actually enjoyed sports there and recently he went on eventually to do PPE at Oxford so he must have done reasonably well.
CB: Now, before the war, when he was at school, he would’ve been preparing for civilian life, what sort of career did he think he was gonna go into before the war started?
PP: I’ve never asked him that, I know what he did afterwards, which was to become a health and safety inspector, I don’t think, I think his father was quite old when he had him and I think that stopped the stock broking, the cotton broking rather had disappeared cause even the family had gone bust so he, whilst he was at St Edwards everybody had to do the cadets and so there was the army and the navy and the, what was the officer training corps then I think, now called the ATC I think and he told me that he chose the RAF because they appeared to do less squad bashing and he thought the uniform was slightly nicer. And so obviously high ideals there [laughs] and he does tell, told me some wonderful stories about there, being there on air raid duty, they had pupils that, you know, to stay up all night looking for air raids. But the other thing was he remembers that the, after Dunkirk, the BEF or a large number came back and camped on Port Meadow in Oxford and there were many, many thousands of them and he remembers St Edward boys were chosen, the cadets were chosen to guard the BEF but they had, I think each squad had one rifle and one bullet and he thought [laughs] these battle hardened thousands of soldiers were being, were being guarded by seventeen year olds there, youngsters, apparently if you were sixteen you couldn’t have a rifle I think when you were seventeen you could and they also had to guard the armoury and he remembers there that seeing a rat and one of the other cadets got it with a, with a bayonet which he thought was a very good shot.
CB: So, he’s going into extermination.
PP: Well, he wasn’t [unclear] that did it was, somebody else who got it with a bayonet cause so.
CB: So, he’s born in 1923. The war started when he was seventeen effectively, near enough, sixteen.
PP: Yeah, September, he was, his birthday was September.
CB: And what did he do then?
PP: Uhm, he told me that he, this squadron leader or somebody came round and uhm, and talked about that the, they were offering a subsidised, not subsidised, free pre-university course at Aberdeen University, where you studied navigation and I think a couple of other subjects, I don’t think it was solely navigation and this was a sort of offer. And he thought that was a pretty good idea that they would pay for him to go to university so that’s what he chose to do. He went straight from there into to do this so it wasn’t a conscious decision, it’s a series of little things that happened so this wasn’t a great conscious decision to, you know, to go off and be a hero or something like that, it’s a gradual sort of, things like this and initially the uniform and lack of squad bashing and then this, they offered this and so then ended up, you know, getting into the RAF. So, he did his course in navigation, cause I think there were a couple of other subjects and he finished that and he was then interviewed for what he was going to do next because obviously the war on you need to join so interviewed by the RAF and they said, what are you gonna do? And he said, well, navigation, I enjoy navigation and you know, you just spend this money training me. So they decided to make him a pilot which he thought was [laughs], it amused him that they should waste all that but he did however because he had a friend I think who was a navigator, who’d had been on the course, who became a navigator and I think within a few months, within six months or was on ops whereas he went, it took a couple of years I think from then on for him before he was on ops, which is probably a good thing because I’m not sure I would be around if, if he spent longer flying [laughs] with the casualty rate. So, then
CB: So, he would’ve done his initial training
PP: Yes
CB: [unclear]
PP: So, Tiger Moths, certainly the early stuff was Tiger Moths.
CB: But he was in Britain to begin with.
PP: Yes, he was in Britain.
CB: Then what did he do?
PP: He was in Britain, we got the logbook actually but, so he did the, in Britain he started off
CB: Yes. Well, it looks as though what he did was ACRC in other words his initial Aircrew Reception Centre and that was in Brighton.
PP: Alright.
CB: Although the ACRC was actually in London but the logbook says that. And then he went to Desford, so that’s what it says in here.
PP: Yep.
CB: So, then he did some initial stuff there, then what did he do?
PP: Well, I know he ended up going to Canada, the various bits and pieces, I think he went from one centre to another, going through the bureaucracy but he ended up going over to the Canada, to the Rockies. He, I’m not that sure about the order but I think it was that he went to Prince Edward Island initially that might have been later on but certainly at one point and he made his way up to this particular base in King, St Edward Island, no, not St Edward Island, King Edward Island, wasn’t it, and it was the wrong, it was, it was an American base and he then had to try and find, work his way. Let’s have a look at the logbook here, just read it, Macloed, I think that’s High River, Queen Mary, ok, he went over on the Queen Mary, it, which he said was amazing, he [laughs], he was very lucky, because you had to work your way, you couldn’t, you didn’t just sit there as a loaded troop ship and it went very, very fast, they could outrun the U-boats, the speed was, it just went on its own, faster than anything else and they were sorting out what he should do and they decided that as he was RAF, they would put him onto anti-aircraft batteries, not that he’d knew anything about firing guns at all, but and therefore he didn’t need to swab the decks or do the food or everything else like that, so they gave him a bit of training but then they were joined by seven specialist gunners, anti-aircraft people who then said, no, we don’t want you there [laughs], so basically him ended up just doing absolutely nothing, he just had this very nice cruise going over and he does describe, there was a continuous rainbow over the front cause of the speed they were going and he says, and he remembers one night where he went up on deck and it mirrorlike, it totally, totally calm and he said, this looked amazing with this completely totally still and they were just going at the high speed through the water and so he was quite lucky with his trip over. Yes so, Charlottesville, yes, Charlottetown, that’s right, I do know this Prince Edward Island, isn’t it, is it Prince Edward Island?
CB: Yeah.
PP: Yeah, Prince Edward Island, that’s right that he arrived and it was quite tricky, you know, nowadays and all that, in that time and he eventually arrived after a long, long journey and they were rather mystified because he’d arrived completely, he’d arrived at America, oh, that’s right because he’s Royal Canadian, he’s in the Royal Canadian Airforce at that point and they said, no, this is American one, he had to go to the other end of the island and anyway, so he did listen to a lot of shuttling around I think where first of all he wanted to be pilot, then navigator and that so he was got pushed around from one place to another but anyway he eventually ended up over in the Rockies and he trained over there and he says, they basically flew seven days a week. And I think one of the days, Sunday was just only half day but they basically just flew continuously [unclear] they right away through I don’t think [unclear] days or anything, I think he said on Christmas day they actually maybe possibly had a day off but it sounds absolutely continuous, and he seemed to have quite a good time there. I have a photograph of him training on that. He, I can’t remember the details but he then having got through that I think then he got his, he would have got his wings, yes, uhm, and they were gonna send him down for flying on Liberators and I’m not quite sure, I do know he ended down in the States but they’d been having serious crashes there with Liberators and they decided he was an inch too short because they thought it might be due to the fact that they needed to put strong rudder on and if people were a bit short they weren’t able to push it sufficiently so having gone down there and he started doing all this he then, they changed their minds. I do know he went on, he, we had a relation Ruth Van Anders, who he sent a postcard to from a prisoner of war camp in New York, and she, and he had some leave I think after finishing and she said well come down, he said I don’t have any money, and she said, oh, I’ll wire you some money wide fifty dollars which is a huge amount of money at that time, cause they were quite wealthy [unclear]. And he went to New York and one of the things he did there was to go and see this new musical, the first week of this new musical called Oklahoma on Broadway, which he very much enjoyed and we had the full seventy eight set later on when I was young, of Oklahoma. And then he went on down to Trinidad because again there was another relation there so he does, but he seemed to be quite wined and dined and faited because he was in uniform and the American girls seemed to like him I think. Anyway, he then came back and he came back on the Queen Mary again and it’s just been the Quebec Conference because the Peel family my, the, his uncle or great uncle Reg, Reginald Peel, was Commodore of the Cunard fleet, he had been captain of the Titanic sistership, actually, and so was known, the Peel were known as a family. He got introduced to the something like the deck captain or something, it’s not the captain of the ship but the person who organised the passengers and said, oh, you must come along, there’s some, you know, there’s someone of the managery people, RAF people, you know, you must come along and be my guest and he went to this and he was a very, would be just, would it be pilot officer, that he just
CB: Probably.
PP: Yes.
CB: If he was commissioned immediately.
PP: What
CB: Otherwise he would have been a sergeant
PP: No, he, I think he was commissioned immediately, but I, anyway and he went in and it was this cocktail party and he said the most junior other officer cause it, oh, what it was, it was after the Quebec Conference which was the Churchill-Roosevelt, was it, Roosevelt conference where they decided I think D-Day wasn’t it? And so was the really, really senior people and they were all track and [unclear] so this is the most senior people and the most junior person there was an Air Commodore and then him [laughs], uhm, so he, he felt slightly, slightly out of his depth there. Anyway, so he appeared to have quite a nice trip back. He then may well have gone onto various places here but I do remember that he, he was about to go to, I think operational training, and he came out in a rash and they probably took him off to an isolation hospital there’s an isolation hospital there so this would have been what, ’43-’44, anyway they got all these facilities for people coming back to the, you know, from desert warfare and he was the sole person in there and the medical officers [unclear] you know two, I think it was a sergeant or something, medical orderly, you know, what do you think he’s got? Smallpox. No, it’s chicken pox, or measles or whatever it was and so he, he, and it was quite some time you know so he was all ready to go and he just had to sit on his own in this completely empty hospital but I think again he probably quite enjoyed the fact that all the nurses to look after him and he was in isolation. So, then he went to operational OTU on Stirlings I would guess
CB: We’ll stop there. Right, we’re restarting now.
PP: Ok, so
CB: The point he got his wings was when?
PP: Ah, June 1943. So then he, he moved around America a bit, he went to the, in August ’43 he, I think they considered him for flying on Liberators but his, he was too short, but anyway he, eventually he came back and then was, at advanced flying unit at South Cerney, in brackets it’s got Bibury here, funnily enough very close to where he ended up living and where actually I did glider training, then he moved to Market Harborough in March ’44 to Operational Training Unit and he was there for a couple of months, flying Stirlings I understand,
CB: He would have been on Wellingtons there
PP: Wellingtons, was it?
CB: Yes
PP: Ok, there we are, yes, Wellingtons
CB: So, they were crewed up, did he ever describe
PP: Yes
CB: The experience of crewing up?
PP: Yes
CB: What did he say about that?
PP: Well, basically they put them all in a hangar [laughs] and let them sort themselves out which he thought was a, again a rather wonderful RAF way of doing it, and you just sort of wander round and, and they said, again going back to the public school thing, it was like, choosing, you know, people for a game, and just left to sort each other out basically. I can’t remember any actual stories he told us about that, but he says, let them all in and you wonder round so if you liked somebody and put, you know, put it together like that.
CB: Yes. As the pilot, he was the captain. Did he feel that the polarity was on him, in other words people needed to come to him?
PP: He didn’t say, he basically just said people talked to each other and sort of, it was quite almost like a social thing, it, yes, he just thought that that whole process put him in but he didn’t talk about him, himself organising if he had done he probably wasn’t that sort of person that would but he always said that he was the bus driver, the navigator was the one who did the interesting work and he just, he just drove them there [laughs] and drove them back so he was very dismissive of what he, well, maybe not dismissive but he, he played it down.
CB: So, was an informal arrangement but very effective.
PP: Yes, yes, I mean, they mainly just basically left people to sort each other out which is interesting, it’s very interesting way of doing it if you think about it, so they were doing it on gut feeling, I think, to see how well they got on, another thing he did say about flying was that that because he was the only officer, I wonder whether I should say this later on,
CB: Well, say it now and we can [unclear]
PP: Ok, and you can [unclear] later. Was the fact that actually he always felt in war films that, you know, the crew went back and you know, share drinks and stuff like that, and he said the rest, there were no other officers in this crew, and so they had a different mess, they didn’t share stuff, right, and so because the NCOs were in a different mess to the officers, I don’t think that totally held true to, they must have done certain stuff he talks about having parties and things like that, but it is interesting that it wasn’t the, the way I’ve always seen it in films where they had this gang of people who were all equal, it was very much the officers and the NCOs even though they were, you know, they were very much, you know, fighting together.
CB: So effectively there was a social and rank divide but when they were in the air,
PP: Yes, yes.
CB: How did that?
PP: There it was very much and there’s a story about coming back this, well this is when they were on ops, I’ll tell it now then. They were, it was September the 27th, we can see from his logbook where they were coming back from but anyway they were coming back across the North Sea and it got to midnight and the rear gunners to skipper, go ahead rear gunner, happy birthday skip! Cause it’s his 21st birthday. Radio operator to skipper, go ahead radio operator, happy birthday skip! And they went right the way round the crew and they all wished him a happy birthday on his 21st birthday. Now they had it from when they got back, they had either a hang up or some reason, something, you know, they didn’t get back when they thought they were going to get back, so they, there had been a party planned because there was a, one of the squadrons I think was moving out and so they were having a final leaving party and so they’d gonna combine it with his birthday party so they got back in, because they were late he said, they got into the where the party was the mess and the crew must have come along cause all there was, was completely empty and there was just a sign saying free drinks for you and that was it so he went to bed and flew the next day. That was his birthday, 21st birthday.
CB: Yeah. A hard time.
PP: Yes, yes. Uhm,
CB: So you point,
PP: We, yeah,
CB: The point about the rest of the crew being NCOs, and him being an officer would be for the formal meeting process but what about when they went out socially?
PP: Well, he told me they didn’t particularly go out socially and again this is, I was surprised because they did, he said because NCOs and officers didn’t particularly mix, I don’t think he was a great drinker, well later on he did drink quite a lot of vodka when he was in his nineties but that’s different, he sort of moderation in most things, what he [unclear], twenty year old I don’t know, but he doesn’t talk about going out socially with the crew I say because I asked him about that and he said, well, we were, you know, it was NCOs and it was officers, so he said, we didn’t particularly.
CB: Let’s come back to that in a minute. So, at the Operational Training unit, it was Market Harborough,
PP: Yes.
CB: Then where does he go from there?
PP: He goes to Winthorpe, this is Heavy Conversion Unit where this is where he would go from the two engine Wellington then on to the four engine Stirlings, and he was there from July ’44, he was there, right the way through till September so this was you know, two more months so again there’s a long, long process of going from one place to another cause if he’d been navigator, he would have bene straight on, this process continues and then he moved in September ’44 and this time it’s only a couple of weeks and this was then conversion to Lancaster, Lancaster Finishing School and that was at
CB: At Syerston
PP: Syerston, ah, Syerston, can’t quite read it, no. Ok. So and then finally and then at some point during here he would was about to go onto one of these ones where he ended up with his chickenpox or measles, I’m not quite sure which one but eventually then on the 14th of November 1944, he then joined 44 Rhodesia Squadron, Dunholme Lodge and he always said he, within the short time because he was actually flying for three months and he actually he moved around, he moved four different places he moved round in the, he was in two different squadrons and so he actually had, he didn’t really have a sort of permanent base, he got attacked to all permanent squadron really.
CB: Difficult to settle.
PP: Yes, so, he was with 44 Rhodesia Squadron for two weeks and then, and then they, at Dunholme Lodge they moved to Spilsby and that was for 39, 10, that looks like only a week they were there and then he is moved to 227 Squadron where they spent a couple of months before he finally got shot down. So, would you be interested in me telling you some of the stories he’s told me?
CB: Well, I think so. The, it’s intriguing that he was such a short time with 44 Squadron and so he went from the OTU with six in the crew to the HCU on Stirlings with seven in the crew because the flight engineer would have joined.
PP: Yeah, yeah. Flipping through his logbook here, so Syerston there we got [unclear] course and there we got, 44 Rhodesia Squadron, right, so, so his first, so, he was a passenger, he flew down and he got to Dunholme, so his very first operation on September the 18th, Bremerhaven and he was second pilot on that so basically the first operational mission and then there’s four more things HLB, not sure where that stands for, basic training things as in and x cross country and then the first time he flew was on the 26th of September operation Karlsruhe. That’s right. Then the 27th was then operation Kaiserslautern and that would’ve been the one which I, he came back and it was his 21st birthday, so, that was his third mission and then on the 30th he moved to the, the squadron moved to Spilsby. Uhm, right.
CB: Ok, we’ll pause there for a mo. So, we’re back on ops now, a significant raid was on Norway but again, what was that?
PP: Yes, no, that was, Bergen. He said because it was occupied territory, therefore you had to be a lot more precise, with the bombing, and you, and unless you could identify the target, you didn’t drop bombs, so he talks about this and the, you can see the, he says no bombs dropped, cloud over target, his description was though as a very large number of bombers coming in he thought probably and the Pathfinders had dropped flairs [unclear] or something like that, had dropped it, but had problem with cloud and they had all the bomber paths were coming in with different heights, more or less simultaneously, and they went round and they could sort of partly see it and as they got it, got to it, the bomb aimer said, you know, can’t see it, sorry, abort, so they went round again, again came in and the bomb aimer said, we can’t, sorry, sorry, we can’t do this, so my dad decided to go round for the third time, I think the crew getting a little bit worried because all these other, they were quite low down, all these other bombers, hundreds of bombers, all coming in at different levels and bombs, they could actually see slim pass, but they went round a third time and he said, after the third time [laughs], he said, they really and they couldn’t do it the third time, still cloud so they came back with the bombs but he said that the crew, he didn’t feel he could ask them to get around a third time, he’s not sure they will [laughs], he would’ve lynched him because it was a very, very frightening experience. But on the way back, it says back over the North Sea, and he said that it was, it was, you know, the most stressful time and going back, coming back and he fell asleep and it’s on autopilot, what they call it, Archie, was it or? Anyway
CB: That’s the Anti-aircraft
PP: No, no, yeah, but there’s
CB: Yeah
PP: Anyway, the nickname
CB: George
PP: George, yes, that’s right, the and they were coming back and he, you know, they were on autopilot, and he woke up suddenly, ok, and so he thought he better just check out with the rest of the crew, you know, pilot to rear gunner, no answer, pilot to radar, no answer, he went round the whole of the crew, the entire crew were asleep, including himself [laughs]. So and he thinks it was probably due to the stress of this because, you know, this flying at night. Now, whether it was that mission or another mission, I’m not quite sure, but they, I think it must have been another mission, that’s right, when they did drop the bombs, they came in and they were coming round in a, on, near the airfield and suddenly there was a [mimics the sound of an explosion], and the whole aircraft shook, what’s that? What was that? And member of the crew looked in the bomb bay and one of the bombs had a hang up and has dropped into and is rolling around in the bomb doors, so they called up and said, we’ve got, it’s not a hang up, you know, we’ve got a bomb in, running around the bomb bay, and he said, where are you? And he said, well, you know, we are on our final approach to board, and he said, and then he said, there’s another call, plane two call, saying, we’ve got two in our bomb bay from another aircraft, where are you? We’re on the perimeter track [laughs]. Anyway they went off and they had to go off to the North Sea to drop the bomb, they just basically go off and open the bomb door so there was a designated area to do this [clears throat] and they went off and but when they got back, said obviously the control tower hadn’t told anybody so they’d assumed because they was hours over, they were lost. So, their names had been scrubbed off, there they, you know, they no longer existed, he think, thought some of the crew had their rooms cleared, you know, they started doing this basically, everybody just assumed they’d gone. One of the things that I asked him about how he felt about, well, people not coming back, you know, and he said, well, I mean, it wasn’t that bad, it was only one or two a mission, who didn’t come back and then I started doing the maths, and I think there’s twenty in a squadron, it’s twenty in a squadron
CB: Twenty to thirty, it depends
PP: Yes, ok.
CB: Yeah
PP: Something like that, so one or two a mission and you have to do thirty missions, and if you’re losing one or two out of twenty, who are not coming back, the statistics of and so he said to me, wasn’t that bad, it’s only one or two who didn’t come back.
CB: So, what were they told to do with the bomb?
PP: What, with the bomb that was rolling
CB: They got the bomb in the
PP: Oh yeah, well, basically, they were told to go off and drop it over the North Sea, over there. That’s what delayed them, you see, so they just, they went off and just opened it and dropped it over the North Sea and that then was why they were delayed and couldn’t come and had been written off effectively by the time they got back. So those
CB: So the first, the normal tour would be thirty operations.
PP: And he got
CB: And he didn’t get that far,
PP: No, he
CB: So, what’s the next bit?
PP: Yes, well, he would, as I said, he was pretty much average [laughs] and pretty much on average if you got half way through, and this was oh, they did three missions on the Doms, Dortmund- Ems Canal which they did that three times and that was quite [unclear], and one of the Lancasters that they flew which I identified, I’m not sure which mission it was, was one of the Lancasters that went on to do over a hundred missions, very few of them identified one of those, was one of the ones that they flew cause they did, the planes seemed, changed from, you know, they went on mostly the same one but often changing, now he said they’d had a virtually brand new plane, D Dog, he told me was actually the first mission but it’s actually the second mission and they were going to Giessen, so uhm, they’re on the, they, on their bomb run in when they were attacked and the rear gunner thought that he’d destroyed, had destroyed the [unclear], I’ve got it, I’ve got it, and then they were also attacked again and then the mid upper also thought, you know, said, you know, I got him, I got him, you know and it’s down a claim here one destroyed and one damaged and, so they were feeling, he said, they were feeling pretty good actually because they got two enemy aircraft and they saw this aircraft ahead of them, they thought and the front gunner said, there’s one ahead of us, shall we go for it? And so they decided to go and attack the fighter which probably wasn’t a terribly sensible thing to do because they had a backward firing gun and actually the fighters apparently did that, they flew beneath so that they could fire up into the Lancaster, so they went down, and backward firing gun went [mimics the sound of a machine gun] and got right well on the bomb bay, now the odd thing was because they’d been attacked on their bomb run in, he’d forgotten to close the bomb bay so it was still open, so they were on fire, they closed the bomb bay doors, they started to evacuate some of them, some of them jumped out but I can’t remember quite which order, I mean, the rear gunner did, the rear gunner actually never opened his, he died, he was killed, he never opened his parachute and my father always thought it was cause it was a different sort of parachute and it was a seat type rather than a clip on one and he thought that he was, always thought that he, and this is a memory he had right the way through to his nineties, he always thought that he was eyes shut reaching for this rip cord because it was completely unopened. Anyway, so some of them bailed out but then the smoke appeared to clear and they thought, maybe we are alright, so the crew’s been a bit depleted and so they then decided oh, they’re ok, we’ll hold off and they kept going. Second mistake of the night, was there was still a lot of smoke around so he decided, well lets clear the smoke by opening the bomb bay doors, just to clear the smoke cause they thought the fire was out at which the fire started up again, now, so, yeah, ok, then the, it was, what was his name, Andre, anyway, one of the crew was Spanish, and he didn’t want to bail out because he’d fought in the Second World War,
CB: That was the bomb aimer.
PP. It was the bomb aimer, yes
CB: Yes
PP: Yes, he’d fought in the Second World War, ah sorry
CB: Spanish civil war
PP: The Spanish civil war and he’d always said he could never bail out because the Germans would, you know, would take, you know, he was different to the RAF because he’d been in the civil war so he was very, very frightened, he didn’t want to, didn’t want to bail out. And the bomb aimer, I don’t know the radio operator, was sitting on the and he heard this later when they, cause they met up at the interrogation centre they and two of them, I think eventually he got pushed out basically, the bomb aimer just got [unclear] somebody pushed him out, right, gotta go, [laughs] and there were two others and they were sitting on the main hatch about to bail out, and beneath them was the German fighter, who was just flying along, he said so close that if they’d jumped out they would hit it and this fighter wasn’t doing anything, he was just flying along beneath alongside them and they’d been going some time and my father always thought that the, he wondered whether he, you know, the fighter had seen they were stricken, they were on fire, you know, they were bailing out and he was just watching them and counting to see whether everybody they got out but he wasn’t, he was just really, really close, so close that he could see the face, he, I mean, my father know this, I mean this was later on he, but anyway they jumped out and he said he was so close they would outright hit him, anyway my dad jumped and he said, basically and I said, how did you fell, and he said well, relieved because it was hot back there and I was jumping out in for cold you know, it’s nice and cool and it’s really pretty, he said, it felt [unclear] whether he could feel it but it was feeling was, you know, far behind so he jumped out headfirst and one, two, three and he was looking down and there seemed to be lakes, these clear patches and woodland and he thought they were lakes and so and he was heading, he was trying to steer and he kept on going right towards these lakes and he didn’t want to end up in the lakes so he’s frantically steered away from these, these pale patches of water towards the dark patches and he ended up landing, slap banging in a pale patch which he thought was a lake and discovered it was a field so was actually very lucky that he didn’t end up in a tree because that was not, I think one of other crew broke an arm or something like that. Anyway, he ended up, he was on a run for about a week, and he hid in a farmhouse, at one point he was in a barn, and a German guard came in and he just had to keep very, very quiet and he made his way, he was trying to make his way to Switzerland I think it was, and it was December, it was very cold, and he said some people were actually seemed quite nice or just sort of ignored him you know, he didn’t, somebody he
CB: Is it German people?
PP: It must have been German, it must have been German but he, I mean, it wasn’t specific, I mean, they didn’t make a fuss, just sort of let him stay or they didn’t make a fuss. This was of course during the Ardennes offensive I think it was because this was December. Right, anyway he got to what was presumably the Rhine and to get across he decided he wasn’t going to swim across in December so he, there was a bridge across and there was [unclear] farm wagons and things going across and so he snug in behind and he had this torch, there’s a battery in the torch and it had a wire across and he walked across and he just tried to hide and he got across and the German guard saw him and saw this wire and was very worried about the wire, anyway so that was it, he was caught. He learned later when he met up in interrogation centre with two rest of the crew that the Martines, that’s the name of the Spanish chap, had been, was executed by the Germans and it became, it was a war crime that was investigated after the war and I’ve discovered quite a lot of information about that, exactly what happened and where he was executed, whether it was actually cause he was Spanish I don’t think because I was very surprised at the number of RAF that were being randomly killed around that time
CB: Just to interrupt [unclear] killing particularly do you think?
PP: The Germans
CB: Yes, [unclear]
PP: Germans, and it wasn’t, it wasn’t like an organised thing if you see, it appeared to be, I’ve done some research into this, and I, I was surprised that it was, I mean, it was the height of the bombing, they would just, sometimes just killing aircrew quite a few of them, I’m really quite surprised at the numbers that, those that happened, my feeling was that actually it wasn’t particularly that he was Spanish but he was always because it was, it wasn’t like it was an organised thing, it was just, he was unlucky. Two other members of the crew however or rather one of the members of the crew had told him how after they’d landed and he was pinched up and was crawling along this hedgerow and he heard something on the other side of the hedgerow and he stopped and the noise stopped on the other side and he crawled along and this noise started and he eventually came to a gap in the hedgerow and he peered through and you can guess what was happening [laughs] and find another member of the crew [laughs] looking at him, which is fairly amazing they’d ended up that close when consider how long this plane must have been flying for after, fairly recent, a couple of years ago, a German chap who was trying to locate where the Lancaster had actually ended up, was asking me because they didn’t, hadn’t found that wreck and it sounds like it was flying for quite some time.
CB: It’s interesting that sometimes the crews bailed out of the aircraft which carried on
PP: Yeah
CB: And landed a long way away
PP: Yes, it’s, well it was, I mean, it was on fire and they decided that this was flying straight and level from what I can go because they spent some time arguing about, you know, how rather try and push Martines out and watching this other fighter that was just flying along beside them you know
CB: Yes
PP: The interesting couple of stories from the interrogation centre. Ok, he’s been interrogated and the technique was that they told you, my father said, the Germans basically knew quite a lot from [unclear] information are you with 277 Squadron? You know how is so and so, you’ve got the new Lancasters, haven’t you? And would tell you all this information with the idea that they know everything to try and get you into this thing, you know, so you give away another morsel of information and so this was happening and, and the German had really very good English, my father’s being interrogated and he said, my father said to him, he said, look, why are you bothering? Said, you’ve lost the war, it’s obvious you’ve lost the war, why are you asking me all this, why are you bothering? The German classically said, I’m asking the questions not you [laughs] and got quite cheerful [unclear]. Later on when they were taken up to, right the way up to Germany because they went up to Stalag Luft I, Barth which is right up cause he went right from the Swiss border, right the way up through and he said he was with two Americans in a train and they had a single elderly guy with them and it was an all passenger train and they had this long, long journey and they decided they were going to try and escape and so they discussed amongst themselves that one was going to overcome they guard who was not, you know, was not first line troops and then what they were going to do and they worked it all out and every time they were just about to do it, it went over a bridge or a viaduct and so they said, oh no, [unclear] and so in the end they didn’t actually do anything and my father said it was probably quite good I did, they didn’t because this was of course, this was getting round just before Christmas I think and fairly six, no, it would’ve been, yeah, it was, it was probably 10th, mid-December anyway. Ok
CB: Ok, we’ll stop there for a mo.
PP: Yeah, ok. So, whilst he landed, he dug a hole for the parachute and he took off his epaulettes and military stuff and they had flying boots which could convert to shoes so they looked like civilian but the other thing they had was their escape maps which were these maps on silk and so he had this torch and so he figured out where he was approximately and there to try and make his way across to Switzerland.
CB: So, the German experience interrogation, what did he say about how that was carried out?
PP: Do you want me to repeat that story?
CB: Just the attitude of the interrogators.
PP: Well, the attitude of the interrogators was always the thing about telling them, we know everything about you, we know everything about your squadron, what you were doing, the names of people, the type of aircraft they’ve got, all this information.
CB: But they, were they passive, aggressive? Did you?
PP: It’s sounds like.
CB: Friendly?
PP: No, I don’t think friendly, I think they were bureaucratic I think from the response when my father said, why bothering [unclear], we ask the questions not you. So I think it was this and this sort of relaxed, sort of well-spoken English, oh, we know what we are doing, you know, we know what you are doing, but giving lots of information or rather the Germans giving information to try and pick up or you might agree that the, my father might agree with something but that would confirm what they thought so
CB: Difficult trap part of the trade
PP: Yes
CB: So, they go by train to Stalag Luft I
PP: Yes
CB: Then what?
PP: And well basically, well I asked him about, you know, when did you try to escape? And he said, well, at this point of the war, December, the allied armies were just about to cross the Rhine I think at this point, I mean, it was very clear the war was coming to an end and so they weren’t doing any escapes at this point because the war was, they were going to be free fairly soon in some circumstances rather. The camps that were very, they were [unclear] jammed in their rooms, they had formed, he seemed to sort of a have a notebook that he had there and he seemed to spend quite a lot of his time, attending lectures, there was all sorts of skilled people there and they gave different lectures on different subjects, I think my father learned German and car maintenance and so there’s lots and lots of people, they formed sort of mini universities because there was a lot of highly educated people there. He shared a, in his hut there was some and I can’t remember the name, there was a chap who after the war I think was quite famous and became a woman, sex change, but anyway they, I said most of this thing was organised their time and his book, his notebook which I have here, which I thought would, from the very faded, round, cause paper was very scarce which I thought would have a wonderful diary is actually mostly [laughs] car maintenance and things, remove the cylinder head and this, that, the, it was very cold, they had, he told about they would saving up for Christmas day and they’d been making this alcohol so they could have it on Christmas day and it was a great big [unclear] of alcohol [unclear] something else like that and when they drank it on Christmas day they discovered at the bottom was a dead rat [laughs], the it was cold, it was depravation it, but basically they were safe at this point, it was a huge camp, there was American side and the British side and the but with the, with the thing of certain you know RAF officers, they, a lot of them would’ve come to public school would have been going to university so they were actually a very intelligent group with a lot of knowledge and then the main thing was that they took their time to be running lectures for each other because at that point there was no point in trying to escape, that would be foolish, the Germans were getting tougher about escape, they had been at Stalag Luft III so this, they had this sort of quite organised
CB: What about food parcels?
PP: Yes, they got a few parcels through and particularly they were saved up particularly for Christmas because he was arriving, he had arrived about two weeks before Christmas, so they were godsend, I think in the postcode I have here he actually talks, he talks about food parcels
CB: Is it a postcard sent to a friend in New York?
PP: Yes, the friend that he, that he had stayed, shall I read this out?
CB: Please do.
PP: Dear Ruth, as you see I really have done a silly thing now, just before Christmas to, this is the eighth of January 1945, I apologise for not writing for so long, but circumstances have prevented it. I forgot whether I wrote to thank you for the razor blades, the cake and the writing pad. The letter was just what I needed and the cake, and the cake just what I wanted, there is still some cake left, and I dream about it so, this cake has obviously back at the [unclear] base and I dream about it now. It was so rich and filling. Then there’s two lines that have been crossed out by the censor, we have enough coal to keep the fire going during the day, at the moment I’m quite enjoying myself as long as it does not go on that long. Love, Jarvis.
CB: [laughs] fascinating. And that was recovered from Ruth, an American
PP: Yes, that’s got through, it may well have arrived after he was liberated so flying officer MG Peel this number Stalag Luft I, via Stalag Luft III, that’s interesting so at that point in the war it still got through from Stalag Luft I to Stalag, via Stalag Luft III and across to Scarsdale, New York, despite the fact we are only three months from the end of the war. Ok, one of the things they did have was they had a sweepstake for when the war was going to end and everybody put in, signed a check I don’t know what it was for, it might have been five pound, no probably it wasn’t that much, maybe it was a pound, I don’t know what it was but everybody signed a check or gave the promissory note and this was quite so that the amount was going to be really quite a large sum amongst the people that were doing this and it was certainly going to be adding up to a year’s wages and, and he was I think only a day out, I know what happened, they were going to end the war officially and then for some reason there was a delay before it was officially ended so and so he, cause otherwise [laughs] whoever won that actually ended up with, would be set for at least a year’s pay if not several years pay. So, shall I talk about when they were liberated?
CB: Yes, yeah.
PP: Ok. Basically they, I know they were quite lucky actually in a way because some of the other camps the Germans court-martialled them away and when the Russians were getting fairly close, the Germans talked to the senior officers cause the both American and British and they had different compounds, they had many thousands, the, and said, right, you’re all going to move, you know, we are going to move you out and they basically said, no, you will [unclear] what you gonna do, there’s thousands of us, there’s only, you know, I don’t know, a hundred of you so the Germans gave up for that point, which and I know some of the other camps that didn’t have a lot of the POWs, you know, that died as a result as they went on this.
CB: This camp was at the bottom of the Danish peninsula
PP: Yeah
CB: While some of these other ones were in the east
PP: Yeah
CB: Germany or Poland
PP: Yes, yeah
CB: So, they were moving them away from
PP: From, yes, yes
CB: The Russian advance
PP: So, anyway so the Germans disappeared and some of this I know about because I have a copy, they of, they produced a newspaper, so the, basically there was this period where the Germans disappeared and so they had to run the camp and so they took over the German printing press and they printed their own paper which was number one, first one, last one, it says on it. I should get you a copy of that. And basically they went out, the, they knew the Russians coming closer basically the Americans I think did most of this cause went out and to try and find the Russians bit, you know, a bit tensions at this point but they eventually met up with the Russians and, and took them back to the camp and so they were liberated. My father recalls the Russian [unclear] the man in charge saying to the British-American commanders, would you like some women? You know, your men must, we can arrange to get some German women and so, you know, you can have sex with them, which the Americans and the British politely declined but that was the, very much the attitude then and my father was horrified when he discovered what the Russians had been doing and he writes about it very poignantly in a letter that I only saw a copy of the first time recently, how he felt that the Russians were far worse than the Germans so I’m trying to remember anything else about
CB: On what basis was that observation?
PP: From what it would have been based on, I would imagine cause he doesn’t say and I, he never told, he did tell me that story about offering the women and he told in the way I just said which was quite humorous but actually it’s not humorous and but he told it in that way and it was very recently, very, very recently that my sister discovered this, in this pile of letters that he sent from Paris in 1947, to his girlfriend who later became his wife and my mother, about how he felt about it and this was a complete revelation to me how he felt about that, is that worth me reading that out?
CB: I suppose
PP: Yeah, cause I mean, in which case we’ll stop there cause I’ll then have to read it from
CB: Yeah. Ok, we’re talking about letters.
PP: No, yes, this was how he felt [unclear] the Russians and how he felt about them and it was very, very recent that my sister discovered in a pile of old letters, a letter that he wrote in June 1947 because after the war and this describes how he felt, after the war he was working in Paris and this letter to my mother, it’s written at four o’clock in the morning, on 16th of June 1947, and I’m just gonna read it out, ok, it’s a little difficult to read, so bear with me, ok, my disillusionment has an entirely different source I think from yours. After being for five months in POW camp and living for the day when we would be released, I was expecting something far removed from reality. What happened was that an army just as if not more brutal and definitely more barbaric than the Germans were, was our saviour. The thought that we were their allies, this is the Russians of course,
CB: Yeah
PP: The thought that we were their allies and therefore should approve of their actions are utterly repellent, was utterly repellent. All my ideals for which I personally was fighting meant less than nothing to them. Another cause was the fact that our own mode of fighting was just as bad and that I had allowed myself to drift into it without making any objection. At the beginning, [unclear] at the beginning of the war, I did not think that and I just have to go through the next page here, bear with me, at the beginning of the war, I did not think that any of the RAF would bomb towns indiscriminately, yet that is just what I myself did. I found I could enjoy dropping bombs without bothering to think of the results, I’m therefore not merely disillusioned by the state of mankind but in myself, all of which is going to take some time to mend. Good night my darling, I must get some sleep. With all my love, Jarvis. Now that’s really, I think and inevitably I think that to me and so that was his views immediately after the war which is interesting because he said his, I must, it will take some time to mend. And I think basically it, you know, it mended but he didn’t talk about it, he put that away
CB: Parked in the subconscious
PP: Yes, I mean, how do you cope with that so my feeling is that he would, he was not terribly emotional, I mean, he was brought up to be unemotional, he was brought up by a nanny basically, I mean, his father was really quite old, so and then very early to prep school so he definitely was somebody that did not believe, you know, in showing emotions but it’s interesting because in that letter he was revealing them, and I think that came from, where would he have got that from, my feeling is that would’ve been from what he gathered from other POWs who, the Americans and you know, from what they discovered cause they, they spent some, there was some time, I don’t know how quickly they repatriated but they would’ve been very aware of what was, how the Russians were treating the locals and I think that would’ve been him being told you know, what was going on and he was horrified at that. I think that’s where he would’ve come from because I don’t think this was public knowledge at that point because the Russians were of course our allies so this would been him hearing from others the stories of, you know, what they’d heard and seen around the camp, I think that’s where it’s come from, and of course his feelings about the bombings were, I asked him about that, how, you know, and he said well, that’s what I trained to do, that’s what I, that’s what we were trained to do, so he did what he had to do, you followed your orders. He was always unhappy about the fact that Bomber Command weren’t thanked after the war, he felt, he never made a great fuss about it cause he, he didn’t [unclear] about anything but I think that that was hurtful.
CB: Was he a member of any of the associations like the RAF association? Royal British Legion?
PP: He, I don’t think so, no, he, I mean, he had his Caterpillar badge, which and he would always go to the remembrance day, right the way through to his very, you know, final year, he would go to remembrance day, in the local village so he always did that but he never joined any of the associations or anything like that.
CB: And when the Bomber Command memorial was unveiled, did he go to that?
PP: No, he didn’t go to any of those things
CB: He wasn’t invited.
PP: No, no, which was a shame actually because he was actually very, very fit right through to the end, I mean he was losing his memory and we did arrange personally to take him over to the Lancaster that can still taxi, and we took him on a taxi run, I managed to sneak his uniform on without him realising but he took it along and I said oh, you are a bit cold, and put his jacket on and he didn’t particularly notice that it was this RAF jacket and then flunked it on his head, oh my new uniform, so and he was very self-deprecating about it and he did when they described at the beginning, you know, they did the audience thing about saying all about how, what the Lancaster, what the bomber crews did and they made it a bit melodramatic, a bit exciting and he sat there apart from falling sleep half way through [laughs] as we walked away, [unclear] load of old rubbish [laughs] cause he, they, he didn’t see it as, you know, that exciting but he, when people came up to him and did say, oh, I want to thank you, you know, shake him by the hand, he did actually quite enjoy that, it’s the last time he ever went out actually really.
CB: Was it? Yeah
PP: Into any sort of [unclear], yeah
CB: But to what extent after the war, are you aware of his keeping in touch with crew members?
PP: Don’t think he did at all. Don’t think he, immediately after the war, he stayed in the RAF and he worked in Paris and then he went to Cairo and he was involved with the setting up of air traffic control that and he did that for some and what he did do, he was in the reserve, auxiliary RAF, that’s right, so he stayed in the RAF for quite a few years and he did, you know, summer
CB: [unclear], did he?
PP: No he didn’t fly, he was in air traffic control
CB: Right, air traffic
PP. Because any flying would be in his notebook and there’s nothing in there, so he used to go on these camps and I remember him going to the camps, but you know, and he would do so this each year, so he stayed in the, associated with the RAF for a long time so I mean, certainly I would say [unclear], maybe early sixties I don’t know.
CB: So he was working for the RAF on air traffic.
PP: Yes, as I say, yes so his fighter, he
CB: Fighter control
PP: Fighter control, so he did, he would go up to the east of Scotland and he would be doing fighter control off the intercepting Russians coming over so uhm and he did that as member of the Auxiliary RAF but I’m not aware, I mean, the only, it wasn’t a crew member that he stayed in touch with but the only RAF person that he stayed in touch with, I think he did have some friends, I think my godfather is possibly an ex-RAF man, was my mother’s, he was friend with his, this chap, Trevor Richard, who said, oh, I’ll, you know, they were meeting up and he said, oh, can I bring my sister? His friend said and his sister was a very glamorous, young woman who then became his wife and became my mom and they met actually in Piccadilly Circus, outside the restaurant there, I don’t know what it was, famous restaurant, anyway, and my father’s usual state [unclear] joking about him being late, he was late the very first time we met, and they went on honeymoon to Normandy which [laughs] was a totally disastrous honeymoon, they went in an old MG which totally broke down and they didn’t get any further than Normandy and of course Normandy had been completely demolished in the war so, and my mom on her, the day that she, they went off on the honeymoon, she was under the car [laughs] trying to hold the exhaust on cause the exhaust fell off but anyway.
CB: It was a memorable event.
PP: Yes, memorable.
CB: So, the war’s over, but he’s in the RAF. How long did he stay in the RAF for?
PP: I think
CB: The late forties.
PP: I’ll tell you what, he stayed for a bit, I think a couple of years, then went to Oxford.
CB: Yeah
PP: He went back to his, he went to Oxford to Worchester College and where his tutor was Asa Briggs who became very renowned
CB: Historian, yeah
PP: Yes, and what was interesting I cause Asa is, I think still alive and I said, well, he said, well your tutors were the same age as you, so they were both the same age, cause everybody had been in the war.
CB: Yeah
PP: And he did that and completed his degree PPE and he came out and he was looking out, oh and I was born whilst he was a student, and he came out and he [unclear] got a job at a few hundred a year as a factory inspector as they were called then and they were very, very poor and they actually sold the car to buy a pram [laughs]. And he, that’s what he did, until he retired early due to stress and then took up sort of farming really, sheep and cows and horses and things like that.
CB: Where did he do that?
PP: Well, we moved into, as a factory inspector he was moved every seven years so my childhood, I was born in Oxford and we moved to Lyndhurst up to Leicester and back to Lyndhurst and then up to Glasgow and then down south and then we moved to near [unclear] farm house which they stayed in then for, I don’t know, forty odd years, a long, long time.
CB: So, you have a younger brother.
PP: Tony, who also went into St Edwards, yes.
CB: And a sister.
PP: My sister, she, yes, who’s, yes, Nicki, Tony, my brother and Nicki.
CB: What did they do?
PP. Nicki is a paramedic, she’s on fast cars, and so she actually is right on the frontline of emergency staff, and funnily enough meets a lot of ex, cause a lot of people who deal with the quite elderly and so she meets actually a lot of people, quite a lot of RAF people and she’s always interested in that and chats about it, and my brother was a teacher and is now retired.
CB: Well, Phillip Peel, thank you very much indeed for a most interesting talk about a most interesting man.
PP: Aren’t you going to ask me which record I like best?
CB: Yes
PP: Which, which [laughs]
CB: What about?
PP: [unclear]
CB: Yes, what about dancing on the ceiling?
PP: [laughs]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Philip Peel
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-31
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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APeelPAG170831
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:23:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Mike Peel was a Lancaster pilot and served on two squadrons before becoming a prisoner of war late in 1944. He was an active sportsman and played tennis in his eighties but unfortunately is no longer with us. Using his logbook, letters, and recollecting his father’s anecdotes, Mike’s son Phillip gives a detailed account of his RAF career. He describes Mike’s amusement at being awarded a scholarship from the RAF to study navigation, but when he enlisted, he somehow ended up as a pilot. Phillip describes the path taken from gaining his “wings”, to operational training, before finally joining 44 (Rhodesia) Squadron in September 1944, and then onto 227 Squadron. Various operations are described, including one in which his crew was mistakenly declared lost. As they were returning to the station a thump was felt throughout the aircraft, as a bomb had failed to drop and was rolling around the bomb bay. Air Traffic Control instructed them to return to the North Sea to drop the bomb, however, no one told the squadron, and upon landing they discovered they had been removed from the squadron boards. Eventually, Mike’s aircraft was shot down. He evaded capture for several days and headed for Switzerland. Unable to swim across the Rhine river because of the cold temperature, he was captured when he tried to cross via a bridge. Interrogation was followed by transportation to Stalag Luft 1, where he remained until the arrival of the Russian army. Letters describe first hand the brutal and barbaric behaviour of the Russians, which was far worse than anything the Germans had undertaken.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Barth
Germany--Bremerhaven
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Poland--Żagań
Prince Edward Island
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944-11-14
1945
44 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
evading
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
navigator
Operational Training Unit
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Spilsby
RAF Syerston
RAF Winthorpe
shot down
Stalag Luft 1
Stalag Luft 3
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/PPayneG1702.2.jpg
2f46ef1a16000254b14a168175fe9b28
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/PPayneG1701.2.jpg
b039d51b699a66b9cdfd0a9ed039e2d9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1066/11522/APayneGA170528.1.mp3
4f2ec096b73aad4bee119f3e1be46588
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Payne, Geoff
Geoffrey Albert Payne
G A Payne
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Geoff Payne (b. 1924, 1584931 Royal Air Force) and his memoir. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 115 and 514 Squadrons.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Geoff Payne and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Payne, G
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BJ: So, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Brenda Jones. The person being interviewed is Geoffrey Payne. The interview is taking place in Mr. Payne’s home in Cumbernauld on the 28th of May 2017. Mr. Payne, thank you for agreeing to talk to me today. Could you tell me about your life before you joined the RAF?
GP: Well, my life was a bit raggedy, I was an apprentice to Sheet Metal Work and worked in a company in the centre of Birmingham and we were manufacturing spats for Lysander aircraft and making fire pumps, things like that and more interested in sports than anything else [laughs].
BJ: And how did you come to join the RAF?
GP: Well, I joined the Air Training Corps, which I was one of the original members and it was the Air Training Corps was at Birmingham was the Austin Motor Company Squadron which was 480 and 479, there were two squadrons in the, ATC squadrons, and that’s why I started to get involved with the, with the Air Force, thinking a lot about the Air Force at the time. We went to camp to RAF Weeton, which was a Pathfinder Squadron, 7 Squadron, which were flying Stirlings and the most funniest part about us, we wanted to go into St Yves for the evening and we had to know a password to go out of the place because there was operations on that night and they said the password was WATER, which was this, I think they were pulling our legs or something like that, they said because the Germans can’t sound the w’s is wasser, so that was the sort of thing, that gave me a great interest in the Air Force.
BJ: OK. And when did you come to join the Air Force?
GP: I joined when I was seventeen and a half and I went to Vishyde Close in Birmingham to get assessed and I was assessed as a pilot and I was given a number and then sent back to work again because they wouldn’t call me up until I was eighteen but in the meantime I had a letter from them saying that it would possibly take far too long for me to become a pilot and that they’d had other vacancies in the Air Force which was an air gunner so I decided to do that.
BJ: And what year was this?
GP: 1943, yes.
BJ: And what happened when you started with the RAF?
GP: What happened?
BJ: Yes, what did your training involve?
GP: The training, we went to London, to Lord’s Cricket Ground and then we were put into high-rise flats and then we had our meals at the London zoo and used to march there every, for breakfast those [unclear] and tea and there’s one occasion there when there was a heavy air raid and at Lord’s Cricket Ground there’s the Regent’s Park and [unclear] anti-aircraft comes and we had to move out and go to another set of flats which was a hospital, which the RAF hospital, and carry all the patients down from the high floors cause they wouldn’t, couldn’t go down in the lifts and carry the, down in stretchers into the basement and back up then and then after that initial training, I went to Bridlington for ITW and that’s a nice seaside place, enjoyed it there and then off we went to Air Gunners School which was in the Isle of Man, just outside Ramsey, a place called Andreas and then, after three months of training, we were sent to an ITW, which was in Banbury where we were crewed up and flew in Wellingtons and from then we, we had to go to Heavy Conversion Unit which was a Stirling set-up, a place called Wratting Common in Cambridgeshire and we did that and then also we moved to, did an escape course at Feltwell and which was hilarious and then.
BJ: What did they teach you there about escaping?
GP: Unarmed combat and this sort of thing but it was, it just became a laugh actually [laughs] so, but we were there for the week and then we went back onto Wratting Common on Stirlings but at that time the Stirlings was being phased out from operations in the, for the main force in Bomber Command and we were transferred to, onto Lancasters which were radial engines Mark II, Hercules engines and from then we did a couple of weeks training there before we were put onto the squadron.
BJ: How did you find the Lancasters compared to the Stirlings?
GP: I didn’t like the Stirlings at all.
BJ: Ah!
GP: No, they frightened me because whilst I was converting onto Stirlings, I had to go to Newmarket to do a short gunnery course there and in the meantime my crew then crashed one of the Stirlings at [unclear] market so and but I, they phased these Stirlings out and that’s why I went on to Lancasters and then from Lancasters on Waterbeach we moved to a squadron which was RAF Witchford.
BJ: Ok. What happened when you got to Witchford?
GP: [laughs] We arrived at Witchford and then the following day we had to go round, signing in, which is a normal thing, you go to all the various sections and sign in and so forth like that and you get your billets and that and I went to the gunnery leaders office to sign in there and he says, ah yes, he says, you’re on tonight and that was the second day I was there [laughs] and I was, I said, what for? He says, well, there’s a rear gunner taken ill and you’ll have to, you’ll be flying with Lieutenant Speelenburg who was South African.
BJ: How did you feel about that?
GP: Terrible, it was, it was, to do a first op with a sprog crew which, the crew was a, they hadn’t done any operations before anyway and I hadn’t done any operations so they obviously bloodied with a new crew and that was one of the most horrendous air raids I’ve been on and that was to Augsburg, in southern Germany which was an eight hour journey, it was the most frightening experience I’ve ever had in my life so.
BJ: What happened on the mission?
GP: Oh, we got attacked over the target by a, by two Messerschmitt 109s, well, we got through that alright but it was, I never in my life would have expected to witness such a melee which was over the target, and I thought to myself I’m not coming out through this loss.
BJ: Do you remember what the target was?
GP: Augsburg.
BJ: Yes.
GP: It was the MAN works.
BJ: Ok.
GP: So that was, it was a night trip, eight-hour trip.
BJ: And did you stay with that crew then after?
GP: No, no.
BJ: No. So, how did you get assigned to a crew?
GP: I’d already got my crew,
BJ: Oh, ok.
GP: From, from Banbury, from Chipping Warden. I’d already got my crew, my crew were there but they were doing cross country south. So that was me doing me first op and I thought, I’ll never gonna get through this. So, that was my first operation and in the morning I couldn’t get off to sleep so I decided to, I walked into Ely and the Oxford and Cambridge boat race was on there so that was the, because they didn’t have the boat races in London because of the bombings, so I saw the boat race there.
BJ: Oh, ok.
GP: And came back, that’s it, so I said, no, that’s it, you can’t, you got to, maybe get through this alright but just forget about it and take it as it comes.
BJ: Ok. So, what, what was, can you tell me a bit more about some of the other missions you flew from Witchford?
GP: Well, I only did, I only did five operations from Witchford and I got frostbite, because we got attacked by a night fighter which destroyed all the communications and heating in the aircraft, but we managed to get back ok. So, that was alright and that was me put away from frostbite to Ely hospital for some time and then I was transferred to Waterbeach for recuperation and then I picked up another crew at Waterbeach which is Ted Cousins’s and I finished my tour of operations at Waterbeach with that crew.
BJ: What were you flying in at Waterbeach?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: What planes were you flying in from Waterbeach?
GP: Lancaster IIs.
BJ: Lancaster IIs. Ok, right, and can you tell me as what it was like on the base there, day to day life?
GP: Base was good because Witchford was a wartime place and everything was so dispersed you could walk miles for meals and things like that. But Waterbeach was a pre-war station and everything was on tap and there were nice billets and cosy, not like the Nissen huts that we did have, so these were brick-built, brick-built buildings and quite comfortable in a way.
BJ: And what did you do in your time off?
GP: Just going home [laughs].
BJ: Really? Aha.
GP: If you could get home. [unclear] the time off just mainly drinking [laughs].
BJ: What was it like coming home after being on operations?
GP: It was very strange and it’s a funny thing, I haven’t been away from home until I went in the Air Force. It’s a very strange feeling when you come back home and see that, it was a good feeling, but it didn’t last long so I had to go back again and that was it.
BJ: And what did you tell your mum and dad about your life in the RAF?
GP: I didn’t tell them anything, I didn’t think it was fair.
BJ: Ah.
GP: Because my brother, my brother was a navigator wireless operator on Mosquitoes, he was out in Burma so there’s both of us, there were three boys in the family and just my elder brother and myself were in the Air Force and the younger brother, he went in the army, just after the war. It was, it was quite strange because all your friends were away and we just had to nosy around, just going to the pictures or something like that. It wasn’t all that pleasant, it’s nice to see your family but as I say, it was quite boring.
BJ: And what sort of missions were you involved in, when you were at Waterbeach? Where were the targets?
GP: The targets, Witchford was, the targets were German targets, Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Augsburg and one or two others. From Waterbeach there was quite a variety of targets which are sometimes daylight raids and night raids, sometimes were French targets, and then all of a sudden you’d be onto a German target at night, which is [unclear] sorted it out.
BJ: What did you have a preference for daytime or nighttime missions?
GP: I used to like to rather go at night time, I didn’t like daytime [laughs]. You could see too much.
BJ: Right. Were there any particularly memorable missions that you flew on?
GP: Actually, most of them were quite memorable, we did a raid to Beckdiames which was in Southern France and that was an eight hour trip and this was a daylight raid and we went out at under a thousand feet all the way and until we got to the target, the target was a port actually and we climbed up to the bombing height, bombed and dropped down to, under a thousand feet again because of the radar, that was the idea of it but it was a long trip, it was an eight hour trip and it was quite a dangerous trip because the Bay of Biscay it was the, the Junkers 88 used to wonder around there quite a lot, you know, so. And then, there was another one which was to Stettin which was in Poland and that was another long trip, under a thousand feet all the way, this was a night time raid and we flew over Denmark and we could see the lights of Sweden and the anti-aircraft fire was coming up from Sweden, things like that [laughs] and then we went to, got to Stettin which we got to the bombing height and came back down again and what [unclear], we just lost one, one squadron, one aircraft on that squadron. So, and there was, there’s quite a few things which, one of the most scary attacks that we had was my last operation really to Duisburg. And that was the, the squadron went out early to bomb Duisburg, there was over a thousand aircraft to do it, and then, as soon as we got back, over the target the air was black with flak and it was the most frightening experience, I was in daylight did not expect to go to a German target in daylight and then it gradually settled down then but when we got back, we were sent down to, the air gunners were sent down to the bomb disposal place to help to load bombs up again for the same target and then the following day the German, the Americans bombed the same place, that was a disastrous place, terrible. That was about it, you know, but most of the trips were rather scary cause you never knew what was gonna happen there [unclear], you could be attacked by fighters any time.
BJ: What was it like being up in the turret?
GP: Very cold. Very cold [unclear] with ice all the way down there because we didn’t have any Perspex in the turret, we had it taken out because you can just imagine if you are flying at night and you can get attacked by a fighter and if you get any dirt on your Perspex you wouldn’t, it would be a, you wouldn’t know whether you got a fighter coming through, you see but where I got frostbite was around about forty degrees below but you see, your oxygen mask you had a lot of breath dripping down you know, froze up and all that.
BJ: What were you wearing to keep warm then?
GP: Well, I had a heated suit actually, the first time was one of these urban jackets and trousers which were all [unclear] and things like that. Eventually they got full heated suits which you’d plug into your boots and plug into your gloves, they heated up all over so you, you weren’t so cumbersome in the turret so, so that wasn’t too bad. It was when, the one time I said when the, the heating got shot up but it was cold.
BJ: Ok. And anything else that you remember about your time in the two squadrons?
GP: I’m just trying to think about it now. I was involved in athletics with the squadron so I did [unclear] got plenty of time off, things like that, apart from my flying, I was excused duties because I was, I got involved in football and things like that, I didn’t have to do any guard duties and things like that so.
BJ: Ok. Did that involve you going around to other bases?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: Did you go to other bases doing that?
GP: It was just the odd at lib sort of things, you know, you compete against the Americans or something like that, you know and,
BJ: Ok, how did you get on?
GP: We weren’t as good as the Americans, I tell you.
BJ: [laughs]
GP: No, we weren’t as good as the Americans, no, they got far greater facilities and that sort of things like that, you know.
BJ: Ok, and what did you do at the end of the war? What, you know, how did you get demobbed and that sort of thing?
GP: Well, when the, as I finished mature, I was sent up to a place in Northern Scotland, place called Bracla and that was for time expired men, aircrew you see, had [unclear] virtually offices and things like that, and my, my flight commander was up there as well, Lord Mackie, he ended up as Lord Mackie and we just had to march about and things like that and then we were selected for ordinary jobs in the Air Force you see and I wanted to become a PTI which is a Physical Training Instructor because I would’ve had the opportunity to go through to Loughborough and take sports right the way through and then that’s what I wanted to go for but they put me down as a driver [laughs]. So I moved from there and went to driving school at Weeton in Blackpool which was quite good actually, it was quite enjoyable and then from then I was, I went to various camps in this country and then my final camp was in Germany where I was with a microfilm unit taking microfilm documents of all the machine tool drawings and things like that and that’s,
BJ: Where was that?
GP: That was at Frankfurt, Frankfurt but we wondered around Stuttgart and other places, went round all these factories and taking these microfilms of these documents and things like that, that was the, that was my end, I ended and came back to Weeton where I was demobbed.
BJ: So, what was it like being in Germany, down on the ground, this time?
GP: It was, it wasn’t too bad, we weren’t allowed to fraternise at all, you know, we did play football against the Germans and things like that and got thrushed.
BJ: Oh, alright [laughs]
GP: So, I played for the army when we were in Frankfurt and we played a game against the Germans, select team which is if we really got thrushed and that was the first time we realised what sort of football the continentals played as compared with our football but anyway that was, I enjoyed my time in Germany and I learned to speak German quite fluently and which stood me in good sted with my civilian job so that was good and
BJ: How did you learn to speak German?
GP: Well, I had to speak German [laughs].
BJ: Yeah?
GP: Well, I mean, if you were driving around and things like that and you lost your way, you had to talk and things like that so that’s how it went [unclear] I wish I had kept it up actually, which it would have been useful to me but it was useful anyway because I dealt with the Germans, a German company in me civilian life more so than anything and of course was a strange thing that the fellow that I dealt with in Germany, he was a Luftwaffe pilot [unclear] [laughs] and something I know quite well actually.
BJ: Did you tell him you’d been in the RAF?
GP: Yes, yeah. So, I mean it was no end to the, not at all, not with service people [unclear] so they got a job to do, we got a job to do and that was it but
BJ: So what did you do after you were demobbed then?
GP: Sorry?
BJ: What did you do after the RAF? After you left?
GP: I went back to my old company and I gradually progressed there, we were manufacturing cars, Standard, the Triumph and the Triumph Spitfires and these sort of things, and but there was so much, so many problems down in the Midlands with the car industry of strikes and all that sort of thing and I just got married and we bought a new house and things like that, it’s becoming very difficult because we’re going on short time, even when you’re on staff you’re on short time so, I decided to make a move and come up here and that was that.
BJ: What did you do up here, in Scotland?
GP: I ended up as a production director at Carron company in Falkirk and but I set up a, came up and set up a plant for manufacturing steel bars and that sort of thing and then I did twenty-three years there and that’s it.
BJ: Ok, and how do you think being in Bomber Command affected the rest of your life?
GP: It did affect me because the, the people, the people that you met in Bomber Command, they were virtually like your brothers, a wonderful set up, it was great and as I say, it was still, we’re still getting involved with reunions and one of the addresses, the two addresses that I gave you, these are the people that I flew with, so, it was, I wouldn’t have missed it for the world. Really.
BJ: Ok. Alright, anything else you’d like to add, Mr. Payne?
GP: No, I don’t think so. I think that’s about all, that’s, I summarised quite a bit.
BJ: Alright. Thank you very much.
GP: Ok, thank you. [file continued] I’m trying to fill it all in you, you can’t.
US: I know you can’t [unclear], I just.
BJ: Right, this is the interview with Mr. Payne continuing.
GP: Right, one of the most horrendous trips that I did was to Frankfurt. And after the target, we were coming back, we were about half an hour away back from the target when I spotted a aircraft with about four hundred meters behind below and it turned out to be a Messerschmitt 109 and I wanted, I tried to warn the, I tried to warn the pilot but the intercom had frozen up, my mouthpiece had frozen up and I tried to Morse coding with the emergency light and the emergency light wasn’t working so that was it, there was actually nothing I could do about it and as the aircraft came closer to me, which was below at about a hundred meters, I opened fire on it and the guns jammed so therefore I was completely at a loss, I couldn’t do anything, I couldn’t warn the captain or anything about cause I’ve no intercom and no emergency lighting so I just had to hang on a bit and then after a minute the aircraft came underneath us and opened fire and blasted all the centre of the aircraft and the smell of cordite was amazing and then the aircraft started to manoeuvre all over the sky doing very violent evasive action or I thought that we were out of control, completely out of control so I got out of my turret and walked back and found that the main door was swinging open and then I got up to the mid upper turret and the mid upper gunner had gone, he’d bailed out and there was all cannon shell holes all around his turret there, so eventually I thought, that so quiet I thought the rest of the crew had gone, now I walked up, gradually I got through into the main cabin and found the rest of the crew were ok and so forth and that we went back to the sit in the turret, well, I couldn’t do anything anyway, so we were coming in to land, but we got back home ok, coming in to land and I started to smell cordite and I, I looked about at the back in the, in the ammunition panniers and there was a fire in there which must have got hit by an incendiary bullet and we had to land, emergency land and it was, it was an incendiary bullet, that was wedged in the bullets, so [laughs], that was that day but there was also another one, no, I don’t think I will talk about that, just [unclear].
BJ: Ok, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Geoff Payne
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Brenda Jones
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APayneGA170528, PPayneG1702, PPayneG1701
Format
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00:32:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
United States Army Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Geoff Payne has his first experience of the Royal Air Force with the Air Training Corps, at RAF Wyton in Cambridgeshire, where he had one of his first experiences of military humour. He joined in 1943 at the age of 17 and a half hoping to become a pilot - he took the faster option because of his young age and trained as an air gunner.
Basic training was carried out at Lords Cricket ground in London. One clear memory is helping to carry patients down several flights of stairs from a nearby hospital during an air raid.
Time was spent at RAF Bridlington on Initial Training Wing before attending Air Gunnery School in the Isle of Man. Further training was undertaken at RAF Banbury where he was crewed up on Wellingtons, before moving to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Wratting Common to convert to Stirlings. During his time here he attended an escape course at RAF Feltwell and was instructed in unarmed combat, which he dismissed as pitiful.
He and his crew were posted to RAF Witchford, Cambridgeshire, where he flew his first operation in February 1944 replacing an ill air gunner. He later discovered this was an inexperienced crew. He remembers the target was around Osnabrück in Germany and it was a melee over the target where they were attacked by two Me 109s, which they successfully shook off. On his return, he remembers being unable to sleep and went for a walk into Ely. There he discovered the Oxford Cambridge boat race was being held and watched it
Target areas of Germany included Stuttgart, Frankfurt and Augsburg. On his 5th operation, the aircraft was attacked, and the aircraft lost its heating and communications. He suffered frostbite and spent several months recovering in Ely hospital.
On regaining fitness, he was transferred to RAF Waterbeach and was allocated to a crew led by Ted Cousins. Waterbeach was a pre-war airfield with comfortable facilities. Time off was spent competing in athletics and football along with drinking at the local public houses.
When time allowed, he went home, but found the experience boring: all his friends were serving away, and there was little to do except drink or go to the cinema. His elder brother was serving as a navigator in the Far East, and he felt it unfair to talk about his experiences with his family.
At RAF Waterbeach there was a greater variety of operations. Targets varied from Germany to Southern France. He also remembers one trip to Poland. This entailed flying over Denmark and they could see the lights from Sweden and anti-aircraft fire.
He has a clear memory of most of his operations but does not wish to dwell on some. On one occasion he spotted a Me 109, he tried to warn the pilot but his intercom had frozen and emergency light was inoperative. He tried to open fire but his guns jammed – the night fighter opened fire and hit the centre of the aircraft. The aircraft began violently manoeuvring and he wasn’t sure if this was deliberate evasive manoeuvres or if they were out of control. He made his way forward and discovered the aircraft door open and the mid upper gunner missing. There were cannon holes all around the centre of the aircraft. He still wasn’t sure if he was the only one on board until he reached the main cabin and found the rest of the crew in position. They made it back home where they realised an incendiary bullet was lodged in the ammunition pannier.
His last operation was one of the thousand-bomber operations in Germany, the air black with anti-aircraft fire. On his return, the air gunners went sent to the bomb dump to assist the armourers in preparing the bombs for the following days attack which was carried out by the United States Army Air Forces.
After completing his tour of operation, he was posted to RAF Brackla, hoping to be retained as physical training instructor, but ended up at RAF Weeton near Blackpool to be trained as a driver.
He served at several locations across Southern England before his final posting which was with a microfilm unit in Frankfurt. Fraternising with locals was not allowed, but he did manage to learn German. He played in a football match against a much better German select team.
After demob, he returned home and was involved in the manufacturing of cars at the Triumph factory. He married, and because of unrest and strikes in the car industry, he moved to Scotland and was employed at the Carron company in Falkirk as a production director manufacturing steel bars, where his ability to speak German became an advantage in his dealings with foreign companies. He met an ex Luftwaffe pilot and experiences were exchanged - there was no animosity whatsoever and it was accepted they both had been carrying out their duty.
Geoff looks back on his time in Bomber Command with great fondness. It was like a big family. He still has contact with surviving crew members, and still attends reunions.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Ely
England--Lancashire
England--London
England--Norfolk
England--Northamptonshire
England--Suffolk
England--Yorkshire
France
Germany
Germany--Augsburg
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Stuttgart
Denmark
Sweden
Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man
Scotland
Scotland--Falkirk
Scotland--Nairnshire
Scotland--Stirlingshire
Germany--Osnabrück
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ian Whapplington
Peter Schulze
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending revision of OH transcription
115 Squadron
514 Squadron
7 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
incendiary device
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
Me 109
military ethos
military living conditions
military service conditions
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Brackla
RAF Bridlington
RAF Chipping Warden
RAF Feltwell
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Witchford
RAF Wratting Common
RAF Wyton
sport
Stirling
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1065/11521/AParkerPTW160106.2.mp3
9c07b5575ef7a9115eb64d3d990957cc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Parker, Peter
Peter T W Parker
P T W Parker
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Peter Parker (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-06
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Parker, PTW
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: Alright. So it’s Wednesday the 6th of January 2016 and I am sitting with Mr —
PP: You know I’m a bit —
HH: With Mr Peter Parker —
PP: Yes.
HH: In his home in [deleted] Gainsborough.
PP: Yes.
HH: And we’re going to talk about his life and his time in Bomber Command during World War Two. Peter, thank you very much for agreeing —
PP: Yes.
HH: To be interviewed.
PP: Yes.
HH: I wonder if we could start by asking you a little bit about where and when you were born and where you grew up and went to school.
PP: I was, oh yes I could do that now. Yes. Yes. Yes. I was born in Gillingham, Kent. And my father was an Admiralty Inspector. He, and [pause] I’m stuttering now. My father was an Admiralty Inspector in Chatham Shipyard and during World War One. And in World War Two he worked, he was allocated to Marshalls in Gainsborough as an Admiralty Inspector on big guns. My, my, when I was ten my parents separated. And my father, we went up to live in Newcastle. And when I was ten my parents separated and I came down to Gainsborough.
HH: And have you been here ever since?
PP: I’ve been here ever since. Yes. Yes. Yes, I’ve been ever since. Yes. Yes. I came down at the time of the eleven plus and I wasn’t allowed to. I didn’t take the eleven plus at all. The headmaster gave, gave me special education in his office. There was two of us. Two lads. And of course as soon as war broke out, oh and then of course I got a job as a, in a local builder’s merchants and I bought my first car. And then when I first came out the RAF I bought a Triumph Speed Twin motorbike. Six fifty motorbike. And — no, I bought a — can you deduct all the bits you don’t want? No?
HH: You carry on because these are all interesting.
PP: Yeah. It has taken me by surprise. This has really.
HH: And where did you go to school in Gainsborough then?
PP: I went to school in Gainsborough too. I was the first pupils in Benjamin Adlard School on Sandsfield Lane.
HH: Gosh.
PP: Yes. With Hillier the headmaster. And he was very good. Very good indeed. And —
HH: So when war broke out how old were you?
PP: When the war broke out I was nineteen.
HH: And what made you volunteer for Bomber Command?
PP: Oh, I didn’t volunteer for Bomber Command. I wanted to be a pilot.
HH: You just wanted to be a pilot.
PP: Didn’t mind what I wanted to be.
HH: Ok.
PP: Yes. So, and all that happened was that they agreed that I could be a wireless operator/air gunner. So when I came back, my parents separated and, and I lived in Gainsborough. My mother went down to London. She got a job down in London and I was brought up by grandma, my grandfather. And grandad, he was the manager of the local Co-op branch in Gainsborough. Do you know Gainsborough?
HH: Yes.
PP: Well where the number 1 is, where the Yarborough Pub used to be, at the side of it there was a Number 1 Branch. And in those days it was the most effective branch of the, when the Co-op first started in Gainsborough. And so I, I lived there and I joined the Rowing Club and I used to row on the River Trent. And what happened after that? Oh then of course the war broke out and they, he signed me up and I was going to be a wireless operator/air gunner. But they didn’t want me straight away. It might be six months before I was called up. So I was called up and went to Blackpool and these are all the photographs of —
HH: Now, was that where you were, where you did your training?
PP: Well, I was, I was nineteen when I was first called up and got trained. Training at, all these photographs of when I was, when I was at Blackpool you see.
HH: So you were called up.
PP: Pardon?
HH: You were called up.
PP: Oh no. I volunteered.
HH: So you volunteered. Ok.
PP: They signed me up when I first tried to be a pilot you see.
HH: Ok.
PP: But I couldn’t.
HH: So were, did you go to an Operational Training Unit in Blackpool then?
PP: Oh no. No. We went to Blackpool to learn Morse. I was completely, didn’t know one thing from another. So when I came back — I used to breed budgerigars and I used to breed budgerigars in, in my grandma’s shed. And when I came back after being signed on as it were, well I was signed. I was signed on as Volunteer Reserve at that point. And when I came, when I came back I bought a Morse buzzer and I bought a Morse key and I bought the batteries and I wired it up so I could send Morse. And I asked, every time when I finished work at 6 o’clock at half past six I had, I had an hour in my garden shed with the chattering budgerigars and the Morse key and the buzzer and I was sending Morse. That happened for about six months. I’m getting in line now. That happened about six months. And one night there was a knock on the door. Quite a rather impatient knock at the door. And I went to the door and I opened the door and there were two policemen outside and a sergeant and a constable. And they’d been, they’d been warned of hearing Morse signals above the budgie chatter every night sending, somebody sending Morse [laughs]. You see. And of course I had to show them my papers and I told them what I was doing. And he said, ‘Oh good for you lad. You’re very good.’ And so that’s alright. And that, that was that it. Then about three months later I was called up to Blackpool.
HH: And how long were you in Blackpool?
PP: In Blackpool about six to eight months. They took us up to Morse. It’s all in here. They took us up to up to Morse, up to twelve thirteen words a minute Morse you see. And six, and half a day Morse and half a day square bashing. So we had a rare old time [laughs] in Blackpool for that, that time. Yes. And then when I, when we, when we qualified to get up to that we were posted to Yatesbury and then we did our first flying which was the first.
HH: Did, were you in Yatesbury for the duration of the war more or less then?
PP: Pardon?
HH: After that were you at Yatesbury more or less for the rest of the war?
PP: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. Yes. These are all the flights I did you see.
HH: Do you — how many? Do you know off hand how many?
PP: Well, in that time I’d done, I’d done —
HH: Six hundred.
PP: I didn’t do it but the Gainsborough News, over six hundred. Over six hundred. But that was only half of them because he counted them. I’ve been in the Gainsborough News several times. And I’m on, I’m on, on the computer. I’m on what the hell do you call you on the computer? If you read up Peter Parker, RAF, Gainsborough in the —
HH: I’ll find you will I?
PP: But it’s all, oh yes, but it’s all in here.
HH: Ok. I’ll have a look.
Other: It’s at the Gainsborough Heritage Centre. He’s had an exhibition in the Gainsborough Heritage Centre with all his photographs and things.
HH: Fantastic.
Other: When they did a Bomber Command Exhibition about a couple of years ago.
PP: So that’s —
Other: At the Gainsborough Heritage Centre.
PP: There was one of the lads, you see that I was with staying at Blackpool and that [pause] where am I? I’m here. I’m there. And —
Other: There’s loads of stuff here to see.
PP: As I say they were all killed. Fifty of us went under the Empire Air Training Scheme and they trained pilots, navigators in Canada and America. In South Africa. But I was —
HH: Did you ever visit any of those places?
PP: Did I?
HH: Did you visit any of those places?
PP: No. Oh no. I wasn’t put there. No. I’d been here all the time.
HH: You were, you were at Yatesbury.
PP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh I’ve been, I was up at Elsham Wolds. That was a Lancaster squadron.
HH: It was.
PP: And I’ve, it’s in my flying logbook. I I was on Training Command you see. And they were so busy that night they didn’t want, they hadn’t time to bother with me much. They said, ‘Bugger off home. And if anybody asks you what you’re doing tell them you’re on day off.’ And he said, ‘I’ll have you a flight organized by next Thursday.’ And I came back on the Thursday and he stuck me in with a crew and they, they’re job was to go up and they’d got photographers as well. Photographers training, ‘Well this is your briefing. You’re going up to Newcastle. You’re going to bomb, photograph one of the bridges. Then you’re going to bomb it. And then you’re going up to the, to the Shetland Islands and you’re going to bomb a place at the Shetland Islands. But before you bomb it, the bomb aimer presses his button you, you’ve, we want you we’ve got to photograph it.’ So we go in and photograph it for the photographers.
Other: That was, that’s —
PP: And then, and then, and that was it.
Other: That’s my dad look there. That was a Dominie and that’s the wireless instructors so.
HH: This is great thank you.
PP: Where’s that — ?
HH: I’ll have a look at that.
PP: Where’s that other book there?
Other: That’s it.
PP: There.
Other: Pardon?
PP: The other. This one look. Pass me that one Jane. This one.
Other: Oh that was the opening of the Spire that one. That’s at the opening of the Spire.
PP: Where is it? No. Where’s the other one like this? Is it around the corner there?
Other: I don’t know dad.
PP: That’s in Switzerland. You’re not interested in that are you?
HH: Is that, is that after the war?
PP: Yeah.
HH: We can look at that after when we’ve talked some more.
Other: That’s up there. They just want —
PP: Have a look at it.
Other: No. She doesn’t want that.
HH: Wonderful.
PP: You can —
HH: Yes. I think that’s that one isn’t it?
PP: Eh?
HH: That’s, that’s a bigger version.
PP: That’s all there.
HH: Yeah.
PP: That’s all there.
HH: So what did — did you train air gunners, wireless operators for various different kinds of aircraft?
PP: Oh yes. In the air. When I was first an instructor I was, I was on Blenheims. Oh dear dear dear. Blenheims.
HH: Halifaxes.
PP: The early. The early, early bombers. There was Blenheims.
HH: Manchester.
PP: No. No, that’s no that’s the —
Other: Halifaxes.
HH: Halifaxes.
PP: No. They’re the four bombers.
HH: Stirlings.
PP: Stirlings, yes. And — well they’re all in —
Other: Lancasters.
HH: And then Lancasters a bit later were —
PP: That’s, that’s another. That’s [pause] that’s me there you see. See what it tells you [pause] Six hundred and twelve flights, in. That was in 1943 but at, shortly after that I did, oh I can’t tell you the full. I’ve done more than that anyway. If you read that —
HH: That’s a lot.
PP: If you read that that’ll tell you all about it. And that’s, you would be at this would you, this? Yes.
HH: Yeah. I was there.
PP: That’s, that’s that one. That’s that one that’s up there.
HH: Yeah.
PP: Yeah.
HH: These are wonderful. This is a great story.
PP: Pardon?
HH: We’ll, we’ll make a copy of the story for the Archive as well.
PP: That’s here look.
HH: And that was you at the opening of the —
PP: Yes.
HH: At the unveiling of the Spire.
PP: But this fella mustn’t be touched at all.
Other: Benjamin. We don’t want any pictures of Benjamin because Benjamin, because he’s —
HH: No. No. We won’t.
Other: No. Because with him being in the RAF and his job.
HH: Yeah. No, that’s absolutely fine.
Other: I get told off. Well, I get told off.
PP: That’s all, these are all Claire’s pupils.
HH: That’s right.
PP: Has she shown you them? Oh you’ve seen all these then.
HH: Yeah.
PP: That’s, I was second one here somewhere. I think that’s my bald head there.
HH: Did you enjoy that day?
PP: Eh? Lovely.
HH: Did you enjoy the day?
PP: Oh yes. It was a grand day. Every aircraft. Look. It tells you here look. Due to overflight.
HH: That’s right. Blenheim.
PP: Every, every aircraft that flew. Yes. The Lancaster.
HH: And the Lancaster was supposed to fly but didn’t.
PP: Yes. Yes.
HH: And then the Vulcan last.
PP: The Vulcan. That’s right. Yes.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: And they came around and just swept past. Well, you’d have seen all that.
HH: Yeah. It was very, very moving.
Other: It’s a pity I couldn’t have gone really but I had to look after mum so — yeah.
PP: And presumably, presumably some of these, these girls had relations that were on that.
HH: Yeah.
PP: But don’t —
HH: No.
PP: No.
HH: Understood.
PP: That’s him there. You see.
HH: Yeah.
PP: That’s Claire’s, that’s Claire’s —
HH: Fantastic day.
PP: She probably told you about that.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: Has she?
HH: Yeah.
PP: But this is my, this is —
[pause]
HH: That’s a very lovingly made scrapbook. I can tell.
Other: Yeah.
PP: This is right from the beginning, you see. This [pause] that’s giving all —
HH: These are all copies of your qualifications.
PP: That’s Guy Gibson.
HH: Have you, did you know Guy Gibson?
PP: Oh no. I’d nothing to do with him. No.
HH: No.
PP: That’s just cuttings that I found in newspapers.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: That’s an instructor with his five cadets you see.
HH: So that’s very similar to the job you did.
PP: Pardon?
HH: That’s very similar to the, to the role you played.
PP: Yes.
HH: As an instructor.
HH: Yes that’s — yes.
[pause]
PP: No known survivors. I didn’t know. Not know. Didn’t know.
HH: So sad. I mean the attrition rate was so high in Bomber Command wasn’t it?
Other: Yeah. It was. Yeah.
PP: You can take this and sort this out if you want to. Do you want to take this?
HH: That would be lovely but what we’ll do is we, what we do is with with collections like this is that we, we will photograph it as if it is a scrapbook.
Other: Ok.
HH: So it comes out just like the scrapbook.
Other: Yes.
HH: Rather than individual pictures or anything.
Other: Oh brilliant.
HH: We will keep it as a scrapbook.
Other: Yeah.
HH: So that’s how it will be presented.
Other: Oh lovely.
HH: Yeah.
PP: Have you come across that? Look. Take an example. A hundred airmen. Fifty one were killed.
HH: On operations.
PP: And nine killed on active service. Three seriously injured. Twelve taken prisoner of war. One shot down. One survived.
HH: One survivor.
PP: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Of a hundred. Yeah.
PP: So that’s in there. You can take, oh and I have got some photographs at at [pause] what’s that at? At the airfield.
HH: East Kirkby.
PP: Eh?
HH: East Kirkby.
PP: East Kirkby. That’s right. I’ve got some photographs in there.
HH: We’ll go and have a look.
PP: That’s the big, we used to get up on the Big Ben’s roof. Opposite Big Ben. On the roof. Jerry watching.
HH: So you were in London then were you?
PP: And these look. There’s one thing that’s quite interesting. I challenged them, challenged these people, this newspaper, Sunday paper was a whole lot of bullshit. You know. It didn’t happen.
HH: Well good. We need people to do that.
PP: I could prove it so, so you could take all that.
HH: Great. Thank you.
PP: Night fighters fed on carrots [laughs] Do you want to take this?
HH: Thank you. That would be great. Well we, everything we’ll take I will give you a receipt for and I will return it.
Other: Ok.
HH: Soon.
Other: Yeah.
PP: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Ok. But you were going to tell me some of your, your stories.
PP: Eh?
HH: You were going to tell me some of your stories.
PP: Yes. Well yeah. Yeah.
HH: And I want to tell me the one about training those coloured aircrew. The wireless operators who were sick.
PP: Yes. Yes. Yes.
HH: Now, where were they from? Those.
PP: They were from Algeria.
HH: From Algeria.
PP: They were French. French. I’m sure they were Algerian. Algerians.
HH: And they were being, you were training, you were instructing them for what purpose?
PP: Well, they wanted to set up a bomber squadron you see.
HH: The Free French.
PP: That was de Gaulle. He was in charge of the Free French. And he wanted —
HH: And they were sent to you.
PP: He wanted to set up a squadron.
HH: And they were —
PP: And they did.
HH: And they were sent to you for training.
PP: They agreed with that but we had the job of training the wireless operators.
HH: And what was it like?
PP: Eh?
HH: What was it like?
PP: Oh. Oh, well apart from them being sick you know, the [laughs] you had to give them, you get them to a certain standard you see and then sign out what they’d done on this standard you see. Yes. Oh yes. We had the whole thing. I’m just thinking there was something else. Oh yes. Aye. Yes. One day, you know how, how they, you know the warrant officer runs the station. You know they look after the complete job and the parade ground is the, is the, the pet thing of his. He does all of his square bashing on this parade ground and one day we were back late. Oh no. Before I start on that one was that there was a difficulty with accommodation and I was, when I was given this job they’d no accommodation. And they gave me accommodation in the radar section. You know at Yatesbury they used to deliver. They’d the four wings. One wing was radar and three wings were wireless operators, air, wireless operators. Morse. Oh dear. Oh yes and in this, in this case we were late down. We were the last in. So I gets on my bike and I used to have to cycle in to, to this four wing, to this radio section in needles. So we were down late and I got my bike and off I, and I had to break in the camp the back way because it was a bit shorter. And I came in the back way and to get to the, to get to the cookhouse, the cookhouse was here and I had to come in and I came in down there from across the road and I had to get across here. So I took, got my bike and got halfway across the parade ground and there was, there was [laughs] a, ‘What the bloody hell are you doing out there airman? Come this way airman.’ And of course I came back and it was the duty officer with the duty sergeant. The warrant officer with the duty sergeant. And he asked, I had to tell him, I said, ‘Well I have been on this, on your wing for now about six weeks. I just sleep here. Sleep with you and feed with you and I come and get my meals every day.’ And then he, then he said —
HH: He let you go?
PP: He changed his tune then. ‘I didn’t know I had a flying man on my wing.’ He was quite, you know. And so I, that was that was alright. And after that he ate out my hand, you know if I wanted a pass doing. So many people knew. Oh. He thought I was a wonderful lad.
HH: Good.
PP: Oh dear. I can’t remember all these things.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
PP: I had a good time. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
HH: Did you?
PP: And I got into some queer, queer spots some times. We had, in the early days we had to get a bath in six inches of water you know. Hot water. Then of course the thing is you’d got to make sure the duty sergeant didn’t find he was with a bath half full.
HH: Too much.
PP: Oh dear. So that, oh yes we had some real good stories.
HH: And how long did you stay at Yatesbury?
PP: Yatesbury. Oh I was at Yatesbury all the time. Until the war, until the war was finished. And when it was finished there was no, no requirements for instructors you see. We were all stopped. And I was then posted. Posted to Madley in Herefordshire. They were training wireless operators as well. And when I got there, when I got there was going to be a special classroom made. We were in real trouble you know. They were sinking, the submarines were sinking ships, and they delegated five squadrons from up near York. You know, in Yorkshire. Yorkshire was all Halifaxes. They were shipped down to, to [pause] yes they were stripped down to Coastal Command. They were sub hunting you see. They give them more staff. I can’t remember it all but instead of having two wireless operators they had two radar operators and two wireless operators and they were hunting submarines. Oh dear. I can’t.
HH: Yeah.
PP: I’ve got to piece all these things together.
HH: Well, yes. It happened quite a long time ago.
PP: Oh yes. Oh yes. It was. Yes. Yes. Aye.
HH: So, I saw in one of the documents that you showed me a moment ago that you must have trained over three thousand wireless operators/air gunners.
PP: Yes. Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Oh yes. That was what they, that was what the [unclear] told. The news correspondent from the start. He asked me the same question. I said I don’t know. That’s the flying there. And all that. If you’d like to count all those flights up [laughs] all these flights up. And that. He —
HH: A lot.
PP: He came up with that figure you see. So. Oh I’d more than that. Yes.
HH: So you must have trained people from almost every part of the world.
PP: Oh yes. Oh yes. Well, see what it says here look. It’s all in here.
HH: Is that your logbook?
PP: United Nations pilots flown with. Polish.
HH: Polish.
PP: Canadian, Irish, South African, Czech, Belgian, New Zealand. Oh and Australia.
HH: Not bad.
PP: And those are the aircraft I flew in.
HH: And you can add Algeria as well.
PP: Pardon?
HH: And Algeria from the story you told earlier.
PP: Oh they came to our school you see.
HH: Yeah.
PP: Yes. Yeah.
HH: So yeah.
PP: And I never thought that, I was the youngest you see. There was two of us. Two youngsters. All the rest of the instructors were living out and they were regulars. But if you go through that it’s quite, quite interesting really.
HH: I’m sure. This dropped out.
PP: Oh yes. That can come out. You can take that if you like [pause] Do you want to take that then?
HH: Thank you very much and —
PP: And how long will it be before I get this back?
HH: We will try to do it within a week.
PP: Oh. Oh, I don’t mean as quick as that but I promised the girl at the news office to give her some dough but I didn’t want to — I’d so much on I hadn’t time to sort all these things out.
HH: Yeah.
PP: Oh, these here. Did I go through this?
HH: Yes.
PP: Yes. There’s everything here.
HH: So when did you leave the RAF? Did you continue? Did you continue in the RAF after the war?
PP: Oh no. Oh no.
HH: So what did you do after the war?
PP: No. Good. Well I worked for a builder’s and plumber’s merchant. You know Jackson Shipley?
HH: Oh Jackson’s, yes.
PP: Do you know them do you? Do you know Eric Jackson?
HH: No. And did you work for them all the time?
PP: Yes. Yes.
HH: Since the war.
PP: Yes. I was with Shipley’s and I was corresponding with Eric, Eric Jackson. I knew him, I knew him when he was, when the two lads were down here and he set his first station up. First thing up. Where is it here? Surprised [pause] If I can find the right file.
HH: Gosh.
PP: I’ve just got letters that I had from him. I can show you. I can show you those another time. I’ve got letters from Eric Jackson when he was starting his first, first shop at the corner of Tentercroft Street.
HH: I know where that is. Yeah.
PP: He started his first shop then.
HH: Gosh.
PP: Yeah. And then, then he wanted me to go to work. I could have had a job from him in 1947. He wanted to give me a job. I said. ‘Well, I’ve already been told by our governor at Gainsborough that they’re going to open a showroom and I’m going to be the manager.’ So I was manager of plumbing and heating when I came out. Yeah. Right ‘til the, you know, right to the, well to leaving. I didn’t want to go. He wanted me to manage the other branch outside so but I was quite happy at Gainsborough.
HH: In Gainsborough.
PP: Yeah.
HH: So when did you, when did you retire from that?
PP: In ’85. I think that was it. Are you recording all this? It isn’t worth recording is it? [laughs]
HH: It’s interesting to —
PP: About a job.
HH: It’s interesting to know what people have done since the war.
PP: Yeah.
HH: Have you been active in any of the squadron associations or the air base associations at all?
PP: No. No. No. Oh I was a Civil Defence Instructor. Yes. I’ve got some, I’ve got all my — where are we?
HH: And was that in Gainsborough?
PP: Yes. I was Civil Defence Instructor for lecturing on nuclear weapons.
HH: Goodness me.
PP: For oh about four years. I used to go around all the schools. I’ve got them. I’ve got all my letters here somewhere. Oh dear.
HH: You’ve got quite a record of your own. You’ve got your own archive here.
PP: Where did I put them?
HH: Careful.
PP: It’s my legs that are the trouble now.
[pause]
HH: That looks like an interesting bag.
[pause]
PP: Those were all my lessons.
HH: Goodness me. Gosh. You’ve kept all of your lecturer’s notes. So would that would have been in the 1950s or 60s?
PP: That was it. Yes. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
HH: And that was to school. You went around schools did you?
PP: Pardon?
HH: You went around schools did you?
PP: Well, the schools were used you see. Not the school. For the members to set up. To set up a — excuse me.
HH: That’s ok.
PP: I don’t know whether I’m coming or going. That’s quite an interesting one. Read what it says there. I’ve a cousin that’s an international clothing manufacturer. And he has businesses in Japan and he and he’s dealing with all places in Europe and he’s got places in in America and Canada.
HH: So he’s in to clothing. He and he is also a veteran of the RAF it says. Yeah. Very stylish.
PP: Oh. Oh dear. You’re going to have a job sorting that out.
HH: No. It’s absolutely fine.
PP: What else have I —
HH: In fact, what I’m going to do is perhaps we can —
PP: What else have I got?
HH: Are there any other stories you’d like to tell?
PP: Eh?
HH: Are there any other stories of your time at Yatesbury that you’d like to tell?
PP: That I’d —
HH: Any other stories from your time at Yatesbury?
PP: Well, well apart from coming the back way at two and 3 o’clock in the morning. Oh yes. We had, oh yes, we used to get up to some tricks one way and another. Yeah. As I say the one where they had to wipe all the aircraft up because all the, all the pages of the exercise books were all stuck where they’d tried to throw it out the window. What was the other one? There was another one. Oh, the other one. I can think of a few more I think one way and another. But let’s have a look. See what else I’ve got. Oh. My knees are not very good.
[pause]
HH: Is that another of your scrapbooks?
PP: That’s the one I was talking to you about. Eric Jackson.
HH: Oh yes.
PP: That’s from Eric Jackson look. You can read that if you want to.
HH: This is a letter from Eric Jackson in 1971.
PP: Yeah. But I wouldn’t, I don’t think that ought to be actually —
HH: No.
PP: I don’t think that ought to be —
HH: That’s an interesting letter. No. Of course not.
PP: I was on heating. I was in charge of heating you see. Heating and bathroom equipment and plumbing. And this is what it says here look, “Will you please convey my personal thanks and thanks of our two representatives to Mr Peter Parker who assisted us in manning the stand. I am quite certain that without his expert knowledge of potential customers we would not have enjoyed such a good return.” And a pat on the back.
HH: That’s a nice letter to get. That’s 1977.
PP: I have been advised not to pass notes at all from this year’s stripper. They used to have a stripper [laughs] Oh dear.
HH: Talking about heating.
PP: Eh?
HH: Talking about heating reminds me of something that I read about being in a Lancaster. That the wireless operator was, his was the warmest place in the plane.
PP: Oh yes it was.
HH: Was that right?
PP: Oh yes. It was. Yes. Yes. Yes.
HH: And was that an attraction of the job?
PP: Yes. Yes. Well, I don’t know it meant much about the job, you know. But it was in quite a warm spot but you couldn’t see what was going on you see. But the biggest job of the wireless operator was, was getting them home. You imagine the thousand bombers bombing a target. Then they’ve got to come back and find England. Then when they found England they’ve got to find out where —
HH: They’ve got to land.
PP: So the wireless operator will contact two or three spots and when it crossed, like the points crosses that’s where you are. You could tell the pilot where he was. And it was up to him to steer from that point to get to England. Some did overfly England [laughs] Yeah. Yes. You wouldn’t believe it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s me when I was fifteen or sixteen.
HH: Where was that taken?
PP: Newcastle.
HH: In Newcastle.
PP: Yes.
HH: Whereabouts in Newcastle?
PP: Condercum Road. Why? Do you know Newcastle?
HH: My granny was born in Blaydon.
PP: Blaydon. You could hear the Blaydon Races. Good heavens above. Yes. Aye. Oh yes. Yes. And Cabourn. If you look at Cabourn. Cabourn in the, on your computer he’s got, he’s got two businesses in Japan and he’s known all in New Zealand. Not New Zealand. All over Europe anyway. And also in Canada. And also in America.
HH: I will. What I’m going to do is just to say thank you very much for this interview and also to your daughter Jane —
PP: Yes.
HH: Because she was here for some of it and I’m now going to turn the tape recorder off.
PP: Yes ok.
[recording paused]
PP: I was aircrew and I had a eye test when I was posted to a gunnery school. In five weeks I would have been a sergeant. And they were, the situation was that they found that I had a slightly defective right eye and the optician said, ‘He’ll never fly again.’ It’s all, all in here. And, and then two years later I had a, I was annoyed and I got, I went and demanded to see the CO and I told him the whole history talking to you. He were a grand fellow. He ran the whole caboodle. And the old warrant officer, the bullshit warrant officer, you know, he was in it, he was [unclear] something. He said, ‘Well, I’m going now.’ And he said, ‘Just a minute Parker. Come here a minute. What do you think about working at Yatesbury? Sending Morse?’ Well, to tell you the truth I’d not thought about it. I wanted to fly. But on the other hand I had heard that there’s boatloads of wireless operators being sent out to the desert and sent and sent to Burma. ‘Yes. If you’ll give me a job I’ll have it.’ ‘You’ve got a bike haven’t you?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘Alright. Monday morning take your bike and go across the flying school. You know where the flying school is. Where the big hangar is. And go and sign there. And you’ll, you’ll work in a receiving station.’ And there was ten of us all working an aircraft each. Going through the various exercises. What, what happened then? Oh and that was a lovely job, piece of cake. We used to watch rabbits. We used to watch rabbits on a rabbit warren. And we had a medical orderly, Corporal medical orderly, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’ve got some ferrets at home. I’ll bring a ferret next time I come. Next time I go on leave.’ And true to his word he brought, brought a ferret and we had a ferret in the hut. And then we used to go to this rabbit warren and put the, put the, put the ferret down and the rabbits used to come out and we used to have rabbits. Rabbit stew in the hut. We used to have two, two stoves. You see this wasn’t the RAF. It belonged to the Bristol Aircraft Company you see. And we had two stoves and we used to strip rabbits and have rabbit stew on the brew.
HH: Very nice.
PP: And then one, and then another time it was probably three or four months later we put the old ferret down, and he got down. He seemed a long time and then we happened to look up. Looked around. And there was cattle all around. You know they’re very inquisitive, cows are. And we were lying down on the floor, and these rabbit holes and it had brought the cows were all slowly meandered up and they were all around us you see. And then that never came. That was it. The ferret never came, the what do they call it? The one I put down the hole.
HH: The ferret.
PP: The ferret. Yes.
HH: Never came back.
PP: Never came back. No. So that was the end of that.
HH: What a pity.
PP: Oh we had some, oh we had some raw times yes. And nobody bothered us you see. We weren’t, all we would do was fed. We just got fed and fly. And flew you see. So I did four flights a day. You’ll see it in that book there.
HH: Four flights a day.
PP: Four flights a day. Yes. From Monday to, Monday, Monday to Friday. Not Saturday.
HH: And how long was each flight?
PP: Each flight was oh about an hour, an hour and a quarter. We used to fly all over the place. Except when, when you know the landings came. When they were training. Oh we came across towing gliders. You know. Ready for the place too far. Stage too far. You know. That one. I used to know, I used to know a pal that was, we used to go out and have meals together each week. He was a wing commander and he used to tell me all his stories. Oh dear. He’s died now though. He died three or four weeks ago. I still keep in touch with his wife. And he was, he was [pause] he was a Cambridge. This is a good story really. He was a Cambridge man. When he passed out from Cambridge they sent him to the RAF as a pilot and he was a Spitfire pilot and got trained as a Spitfire pilot. And then he was posted and they sent a, they sent along a [pause], they sent along [pause] Oh it’s gone. Anyway, it was, it was an old aircraft and no good at all. You know if Jerry had seen it he could have knocked him down straight away and they’d sent him to France with another, another four or five pilots and he’d just, out of training school. They landed in France on a grass field site. And they landed in France in a tented camp. And when they went there, when they landed there there was a row of ten brand new Spitfires straight from the works and they had a wizard, they had a wizard time flying these Spitfires around until Jerry broke through. Jerry broke through you know and overran France and they had to, had to go and he was the last one off. And he was taking this Spitfire down the drive and he happened to look and he saw there was one bloke going around. So he went around again and watched him. And he was going in to vehicles. So he went around again and landed. And it was the warrant officer in charge of the, in charge of this camp and all he was doing it was setting all the machines. All the traffic. They’d escaped to the coast you see to make the raid back home. They’d gone to the coast and all the vehicles that were left, he’d started all the engines, put them on full blast so it, so they ruined them. It ruined them. And then he told him, and he told him, ‘Get in the back here. I’ll take you off home.’ He said, ‘I’m not, I’m not. You’re not allowed to you take you in your aircraft.’ ‘That’s an order. You get back there and we’re going home. I’m going home and you’re coming with me.’ And he took him home and when he got, when he got, when he got home, when he got to the base they put him on a charge for putting an aircraft at risk with putting more people into it. And of course he explained it all. And then in the end he got the French Croix, Croix de Guerre. He’d a row of medals. He got a French Croix de Guerre for, for doing what he did.
HH: Gosh.
PP: In fact, he was then, he was then then [pause] he was then given the job of with the Resistance in France and he used to fly Lysanders in to France doing all, all the various things. In the end he was made paymaster and he used to used to, used to go out in a, in a, in a Lysander. Lysander. That was what it was. And in the end he used to go out with a, in a Lysander and pay the Resistance men. Aye.
HH: Fantastic.
PP: That was, that was a good story. That was one story he told me.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Peter Parker
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Heather Hughes
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AParkerPTW160106
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:46:16 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Peter Parker grew up in Gainsborough. He had hoped to be a pilot but was unsuccessful, however as he had taught himself Morse code in his shed at home he trained as a wireless operator and became an instructor. He was posted to RAF Yatesbury and trained hundreds of wireless operators during his posting. After the war he returned to work in Gainsborough for Jackson Shipley, a builder’s merchants company, while also being a Civil Defence Instructor.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Peter Schulze
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Training Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Wiltshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
aircrew
civil defence
ground personnel
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Madley
RAF Yatesbury
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1054/11432/AOttewellJA161230.1.mp3
ed6d965b6a00fedce14849a82f016376
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ottewell, John Alan
J A Ottewell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer John Alan Ottewell DFM (1582251, 191334 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 7 and 115 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-30
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Ottewell, JA
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DB: This, this is an interview with John Alan Ottewell in Downend Bristol on the 30th of December at 1445 hours. John can you tell me a little about your childhood and why you decided to join the RAF?
JO: Well, I was always interested in aircraft. Built model aeroplanes as a lad and joined the, what was the precursor to the ATC, the Air Defence Cadet Corp. Rose to the dizzy rank of sergeant. And signed on for the air force when I was eighteen. Call up papers at eighteen and went to London to, in the RAF pool which was based in Lord’s Cricket Ground. And next door to Lord’s Cricket was a huge garage which was the equipment centre. And in Regent’s Park are huge blocks of flats which were the, where everybody was sleeping and eating and so on. And I was there for about three weeks under what was called the PNB scheme. I’m sure you’ve heard of that. Pilot, navigator, bomb aimer. And I was then sent, having been kitted out with the uniform and marched about a bit and taught a few things I went to Derby, Burnaston to fly Tiger Moths and be sorted out as to whether I was going to be pilot, navigator or bomb aimer. And while I was there we stayed at Repton School which was pretty sparse there. There was no heating and it was winter. But I didn’t go solo in the twelve hours allocated. Nearly went but not quite and so I was posted as a navigator. And I went then down to Babbacombe for — here’s a picture of it look. You can see where I was. At the, now this was in a, in a hotel. We were stationed in various hotels in Babbacombe and I was in one called The Downs. There’s one. That’s still there today. And the Sefton is still there but it’s completely different. It’s been rebuilt. And while we were there we were doing exercises one Sunday afternoon on Oddicombe Beach and Babbacombe was attacked by a lone raider. Well, there were actually five lone 190s came over in different parts of the south coast and one came over Babbacombe. It let its bomb go as it crossed the coast. One bomb went, the left hand bomb went through our billet, the Downs Hotel and took a lot of my gear away because it was, we were in an upper floor. We were on the, we were on the beach in in PT kit and the other one hit St Mary Church and killed twenty four people of which there was a local orphanage. There were four teachers and twenty children and I’ve got the cuttings in here if they’re of interest to you. You can take a picture of them. So we were marched up. Well, while we were on the beach. It was a lovely day and suddenly paper fluttering down on the beach was pages from bibles and hymnbooks. We were marched back up and then, by which time all the rescue people had been in the church and got the bodies out but we were employed to go through the rubble to see whether there was anything of significance, you know buried or anything. And a couple of pictures of that in there. And strangely enough one of the four teachers had the same name, surname as myself but I’ve never been able to find out whether she was related. Have you Chris? Have you?
CO: No.
JO: No. You haven’t. So, anyway I passed out of there and went up to, we went to Heaton Park in Manchester which was a holding unit. And friends went off to Canada and USA and I happened to go to Bishops Court in Northern Ireland. Did the navigation training there and on the way back there was a huge storm and we were sitting in the boat for forty eight hours because it couldn’t dock in, in Stranraer. And they didn’t have much in the way of food so we were eating ship’s biscuits which were sort of emergency rations. They made plenty of tea though so we were alright there. And then where did I go then? I’ve got to have a think now. From there I went down to one of the, my memory’s going, near Banbury. Old Warden. Is it Old Warden? Oh, is that my phone or yours?
CO: Mine.
JO: I went to Old Warden on Wellingtons and we flew around. We, well the first thing we did we were all assembled in one of the large hangars. About twenty pilots and twenty navigators and forty bomb aimers err forty gunners and told to form up into crews. Which somehow we did. I don’t quite know how it worked but eventually we did and then we flew the Wellington as a crew and spent, well a few weeks there and then we went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at Feltwell which flew Stirlings. The Stirling was a very nice aeroplane but it was all electric and if the undercarriage failed, for example it was about six hundred winds of a very short handle to get it down. But the, usually the flight engineer carried a half a penny in his pocket so the copper of the half penny he could put in the fuse slot and it wouldn’t blow [laughs] So then the undercarriage would come down and lock. And the Stirling was a very nice aeroplane. And then eventually I went to Witchford on the Lancaster so you can stop it [laughs]
[recording paused]
JO: Well we started operating at Witchford. Let me just have a look and see. I’ve got my logbook here somewhere.
[recording paused]
JO: Switch it on again. We started ops at, at Witchford, bombing Northern France to help the invasion. Caen and places like that. And then we, after three or four ops we did a very long one to Stettin in Poland. Nine hours forty. Which is the absolute limit of what a Lancaster would do. About ten hours. They had, from memory they had two thousand one hundred and fifty four gallons of fuel and they used a gallon a nautical mile. So it gives you the range. And Stettin was just getting to the limit of that. What else? So then, then after that we began to do support for the invasion. Did a Le Havre. Oh. Wait a minute. Just looking back in my book here we did an op to Kiel when we were hit by flak. Oh yes. Charlie Sergeant was sitting above that and it hit the port side of the aircraft. Got the controls to the elevators and damaged the controls to the elevators and cut the controls to the rudders and cut off all the hydraulics so the, the turrets wouldn’t work because they’re driven off the port inboard. And so that was interesting. But we were able to land by using differential power. And then we went on various ops. And I got the job at Witchford of making a radar map. H2S had, we’d just changed the H2S from ten centimetres which was not, not very clear because it’s the wavelength was ten centimetres so anything smaller wouldn’t show up. We went to three centimetre H2S and a tremendous improvement in the quality of the pictures. And I did a trip out to the Ruhr and took pictures of the cathode ray tube of the H2S outlining, showing where the different things you could take bearings on. Lakes, rivers, things like that. And that was put up in the crew room at Witchford and was there when the station closed I was told. You know, when, at the end of the war. So you might find somebody who remembers that. You may [laughs] It’s possible. Anyway, there we are. So, we did, we did altogether I think twenty nine ops at Witchford and then we went to Warboys. We were asked if we would go to be Pathfinders. And Donald Bennett was after the, what he supposed were the top crews. I suppose we’d survived and qualified for that. And three of the crew left. A Canadian bomb aimer and the flight engineer and, and one of the others went. And we got a new, a new crew or new members and we then went to, from having trained at Warboys we went to Oakington with 7 Squadron. And there we are. Ok. Well, Witchford of course was a temporary wartime station. Nissen huts heated by a single coke stove in the middle and the Nissen hut held two crews normally. And you had to get enough coke and coal to keep the stove going to keep the thing warm because obviously as fast as you put heat in it went out and there was many a night foray to the local coal dump to [laughs] to top up the thing. Hopefully unseen by the guards but I think they turned a blind eye. Whereas when we got to Oakington we had a pre-war modern station. We had a batman. I think I had a batwoman but to look after, she took care of about four officers and it was very very comfortable. And also at Oakington was a Mosquito squadron and they were training. They were an interesting squadron. They were training to toss bombs up tunnels. They’d fly towards the tunnel with the bomb, let the bomb go and go up the side of the mountain. A very dangerous game. And they practiced on Oakington because they put some hoops from the Nissen huts to give them the, where the tunnel entrance was. I mean obviously there was no mountain or anything and it was a fairly safe procedure but they did their practice there. And we also while we were there obviously there was the invasion going across the Rhine and gliders were being towed across. And while we were there one of them landed at Oakington and about, the soldiers all dashed out ready with their guns to go into action only to find they were in the middle of an RAF airfield. Which was, we thought was amusing. They did not. Well, then we were posted to St Eval in Cornwall to join the Tiger Force. Now, the Tiger Force was going to help bomb Japan. And the problem is with the two thousand mile range on a Lancaster and Vancouver to Honolulu being two thousand miles we had a problem. How to get the Lancasters into the Japanese war because they couldn’t make it. They didn’t have the Azores and Labrador and things in the way. So we had to wait until they were fitted with a four hundred gallon tank, from memory, in the bomb bay. And that was fitted by people who were flight refuelling. And on Wikipedia there’s something about it said they hoped to use flight refuelling but of course they didn’t. Flight refuelling didn’t exist as a, as a system. It was just that the flight refuelling were the people who supplied the tankage and the pipes and the pumps and fitted them. And as the aircraft were fitted out they took off and went off and we were number ten. During that time I got some leave and got married. So, so anyway eventually of course the atom bomb was dropped and I think it’s possible if it hadn’t been dropped I wouldn’t be here because we would have been bombing Japan. And it, I think it saved a lot of lives. But there was an aircraft got as far as Vancouver. And they were, they were, they were scattered and we were just ready to go and the war stopped. So end of story really.
[recording paused]
JO: A very good friend my mother. And she had a daughter. And her daughter was friends with a, with a girl at where she worked who was, eventually became my wife. I was introduced to her by that.
[recording paused]
JO: I was only in it for a couple of years obviously and I joined Transport Command flying, well we had I did a short bit on Warwicks which was a grown up version of the Wellington. But we flew Yorks on, down to Cairo and Gibraltar and all over the place and I finished on those about two or three months before I was due to be demobbed. I was posted to Lyneham and operated in the control tower for a little while. And then in 1947 I was demobbed and we went up to Warton where of course they make the Typhoons today. They had a big hangar full of suits and shoes and suitcases and hats. All made by Montague Burton who you, you really wouldn’t know about I’m sure but they were the, they were the tailors of the time. And the uniform was put in the suitcase and I left and came home. End of that story.
[recording paused]
Right. As I trained as a navigator in the RAF we automatically got what at that time was called a second class navigator’s licence. A civil licence. Like a driving licence. But in order to work in civil aviation like in BOAC or any of the airlines you had to have a first class navigator’s licence. For that you had to go up to London and sit an exam. And in 1947 the winter was very harsh and so I went up to London and stayed in a grotty hotel and sat the exam in my RAF great coat. In a, you know [laughs] Fortunately passed and got a first class thing. Of course one of the things I was able to do was sort of mental arithmetic and things which helped a lot and I got a job with BOAC as it was then and we were based at Hurn. So you went down to Hurn. You were born that winter.
CO: Yes [unclear] cold.
JO: My son was born that winter. We went down to Hurn and we flew from Hurn which was BOAC’s base. London Heathrow didn’t exist. Although there was an airfield there they were, there was tented accommodation for passengers, looking after the passengers. And the aeroplanes were mostly Yorks or converted Lancasters into Lancastrians. And the Lancastrian was a very nice aeroplane in many ways. It had the odd thing of thirteen passengers sitting sideways. One steward and a crew of four I think it was and we flew down to Sydney stopping in Cairo and Delhi and Karachi and Rangoon and all the places on the way. And there was a film made, and I’ve talked to Chris about this, called, “Seventy two hours to Sydney,” which is what the Lancastrian actually did. Three days to Sydney. And we’ve never been able to find it.
CO: No. I’ve searched online. I can’t find it.
JO: And I’m sure it was made for BOAC. Anyway, somebody might turn it up one day. But they wanted to post me to Sydney on flying boats. I did short trips on flying boats. You had to take a special exam because a flying boat when it lands becomes subject to the Admiralty rules and regulations so you have to learn about lights and buoys and all sorts of things. Anyway, they wouldn’t post me down there permanently so I said rather rashly, oh well, goodbye and left BOAC and took a job with Bristol where the flying schools were continuing after the war. Reserved flying schools that is. For the RAF. I got a job there teaching navigation and we had Ansons and Tiger Moths and various other odd aeroplanes. I think we had an Oxford as well. And one Sunday morning we went into work and they said the flying school is shut. It closed down like that. Without warning. We were given a month’s notice and that was it. Now, you couldn’t imagine that happening today but this is in 1949. And so I thought oh I’d better look for another job. But fortunately they had an order for about a hundred Bristol freighters and they were farming out the delivery of the freighters. And they said well if we’ve got a navigator we’ve got pilots. We’ll deliver them ourselves. And so I sort of fell into a job by sheer luck. And I stayed with them navigating and eventually got a pilot’s licence and flew with them until what was it? 1972, when I sort of retired from flying and took a job as a project manager for developing something called tracked Rapier. The Rapier missile system defends airfields and this was a Rapier missile system developed for Iran on a, an American tank as it were. And unfortunately before it could be properly developed the Shah was deposed and so we had to go and do something else. Anyway, we, I was in, involved in Rapier development until I retired. End of story really.
[recording paused]
JO: I managed to fly in some unusual aircraft. I flew in an aircraft called the Buckmaster which was a two seater trainer for the Brigand. And in the bomb bay of the Buckmaster was fitted a very large combustion heater which was intended to heat the Brabazon. I think it was something, a colossal, like four hundred thousand BTHU. It was a dirty great cylinder. Excuse the word but it was a huge thing and when it lit you heard it. It went vroom. And you know you were sitting with headphones. We did several flights with that because it had to, they didn’t want to start it up on the ground. It had to ignite when you were at altitude to provide heat for the Brabazon which was a vast interior. That was an interesting aeroplane. I had a flight in the Brabazon itself. Took a couple of flights in a Brabazon. We did stalls. It was the most gentle stalling aircraft I ever flew in. It just sort of sighed and went down at about ninety five knots. It just went [unclear] like that. Very gentle. And that was interesting. And then I got involved in delivering freighters. They lost a couple of freighters. The crews did. One was, went down in the Lyme Bay when they were doing single engine climbs and nobody could explain it although there was a sailor on the conning tower of a submarine said he saw something fall off. But that was as much as we had. And then there was a nasty Avro Tudor aircrash at Llandow in Wales. And there was a freighter airborne doing the same thing and the chap went over to have a look at the crash site. And then he did a single engine climb and the tail, the fin collapsed. And of course the thing spins in then and they knew what it was. And they also lost freighters, a couple of freighters when the wing skin fell off. The top, the top wing skin. When they were taken out to Africa to fly, very bumpy conditions and the wings are flexing the rivets fatigued and eventually like undoing a stitch they undid. And then the thing did that. And they lost a couple like that. But all these things are taken care of, hopefully, in modern aeroplanes. We hope.
CO: Yeah.
JO: And then I, we did a lot of work on the Britannia. Chris just reminded me of one we did. We, it had engine trouble because the engines in the Britannia had jet engines, turbo props. But there’s something called reverse flow and the air comes in the wrong end and goes around and comes back out the back. And they used to ice up in certain conditions. If you were flying in cloud like well there wasn’t any and there was some thin cloud earlier. And the Met people, we’d asked the Met office how much water content was for cubic metre so that we could calculate, our boys could calculate how much heat was in the ice to get rid of it. And the Met people said, I’ve forgotten the numbers now but it was something if they might have said say a hundred grams per cubic metre and when we went out there and actually measured it and we had devices for catching the stuff it was nearly four times as much. So the amount of heat you had to put in of course goes up proportionately. And eventually we solved the problem but BOAC by then were concerned with having their 707s and the Britannia never really made it. The air force used it a lot and it was put to very good use for the air force. We, we did all sorts of strange things. We had one in Rangoon which overran the runway and it broke at the front passenger door. A big crack right around. And we took him, a chap out there, what’s the name? King wasn’t it? Harold King. Was it?
CO: I don’t know.
JO: Anyway, we took, we took one of our engineers who was renowned for sort of, what you might call make do and mend jobs and we bolted a lot of dexion. You know what dexion is, you know the punch hole thing around the cockpit to support it? Flew back unpressurised about ten thousand feet using thousands of gallons of fuel. Brought it back to Filton where it was repaired. But interesting.
CO: Yeah.
JO: I think that about the end for me. Any more?
CO: Howard Hughes.
JO: I can’t think of anything else.
CO: You flew with Howard Hughes, I think.
JO: Oh yes. I flew with Howard Hughes. Yes. Yes. That was interesting too. We took a Britannia out to, I think we took it to Ottawa. I’d probably find it in my logbook. And we were told Howard Hughes wanted to fly it because he was looking for it for Transworld Airlines and we were parked on the parking bay in the airport. It was the evening time and suddenly a convoy of very posh American shiny cars comes up to the passenger’s steps and parks there. Nothing much happened and a dirty old Ford came and it was filthy. Came and parked by the crew’s steps. One man got out in a shabby old suit wearing sandals and a hat and came up the front steps and said, ‘I’m Howard Hughes. I’m going to fly this aeroplane.’ And he took his shoes off and he got in the aeroplane and off we went and we flew for, I don’t know, an hour, an hour and a half and came back. He was a very good pilot. He really put it through its paces. And he wanted to buy eighty of these aeroplanes. And since we could only make twelve a year it was a fairly forlorn hope. And of course they then bought the Lockheed Electra. But he tried it twice, the Britannia. And he preferred it but we couldn’t make it. So there you are.
[recording paused]
JO: Yeah. We had our regular crew, regular ground crew and regular aircraft which was in the picture there. KO X. And that year the Derby winner was a horse called Tehran and so we called the Lancaster Tehran. I think we had a, I can’t remember whether we had a horse painted on but it was something like that. But when we were with the Pathfinders we didn’t always get the same aircraft. But at Witchford we, we did most of our ops in that. You got used to it you know. They were, they were assembled in different places and they were all slightly different because they were made of parts which were, came from all over the country. And we certainly liked that one and it was a lucky one for us. Can’t tell you any more really.
[recording paused]
JO: Johnny Boden was the pilot and he was the old man. He was twenty four and he’d been in the air force longer than the rest of us. And he’d been training, flying a Wellington and he’d been not exactly demoted but been prevented from being promoted because he’d done some low flying and he hit a, had hit a telegraph pole with the wing of the Wellington and apparently came back to the station, this is a story we heard, with three feet of telegraph pole embedded in the wing. And for that he was not allowed to be promoted and it set back his, he would have been normally commissioned at that, at that age. And he was a great character. He, at the end of the war he took a civil pilot’s licence and flew for Scandi Scandinavian airlines and I think if you look him up on the internet you’ll find there was an incident in Rome where they had a fire on and he succeeded rather well in looking after the aeroplane. But the rest of the crew we were under twenty. Now, can you imagine today where they keep people in school until their eighteen letting them loose on a multi-million pound aeroplane? You know. It’s very strange. And they all came from different parts of the country. So Tommy Lapin was an Irishman from Belfast. Charlie Shepherd was from London. He’s the, he was the mid-upper gunner. Charlie Sergeant was from Abertillery where he still lives. Ken Ackland was from Bridgwater just down the road and I knew him after the war. And who else have we got? Me. With hair [laughs] And where are we? Just trying to look at the thing. I was, have I said oh Al Gilfoyle was a Canadian, from Toronto. And he came over after the war to visit Ken Ackland and we met. And I think that’s all of us isn’t it? Yes. That’s all of us. Ken Ackland sadly died quite a long time ago. I don’t know what happened to Al Gilfoyle . I’m told Charlie Shepherd died. I only knew recently. Chris found out. Died of cancer shortly after the war.
CO: Not Charlie Shepherd. You’ve got. Oh yes. You’re right. Sorry.
JO: Shepherd. Shepherd.
CO: I’m getting confused.
JO: Yeah. Shepherd.
CO: Yes.
JO: London. Cancer.
CO: He died.
JO: Yeah.
CO: The other one is still with us.
JO: And Charlie Sergeant is still alive and Chris is in contact. And we’re sort of indirectly contact. And Tommy Lapin we’ve, he disappeared. We don’t quite know. It’s possible. He could have survived but we don’t know do we?
CO: No.
JO: And Johnny Boden. Well, we don’t know. He was much older. Of course he was three years older. Which doesn’t sound much today but when you’re old it’s a lot. And so I don’t know what happened to him. So that’s all the crew.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Alan Ottewell
Creator
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Denise Boneham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-12-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOttewellJA161230
Conforms To
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Pending review
Format
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00:34:27 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
John Ottewell was a member of the Air Defence Cadet Corps and volunteered for the RAF when he was eighteen. While undertaking initial training he was present when a Fw 190 attacked the town of Babbacombe. He took part in the clean-up at the church where twenty four people had died. After training he flew a tour of operations as a navigator from RAF Witchford before going on to a second tour with Pathfinders from RAF Oakington. Flew twenty nine operations on the same Lancaster, named after a racehorse, and remembers some of them: over Northern France in support of the invasion; a nine hour flight to Stettin; being hit by anti-aircraft fire over Kiel. Recounts being assigned to the Pathfinder force and then joining the Tiger Force. Mentions a Mosquito squadron at Oakington trained to drop bombs inside tunnels. Tells of his life after the war, working in civilian aviation, teaching navigation in flying schools, then developing missile systems and gives a detailed account of an encounter with Howard Hughes. Describes his fellow crew members. After the war he had the opportunity to fly in a number of aircraft including the Britannia and Buckmaster.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Devon
England--Norfolk
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
7 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Fw 190
H2S
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancastrian
Mosquito
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Pathfinders
RAF Feltwell
RAF Oakington
RAF Witchford
Stirling
Tiger force
training
York
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1053/11431/AOttawayM161121.2.mp3
d38c11a1b8b0125239c232cec6f51ab0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Ottaway, Margaret
M Ottaway
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Margaret Ottaway MBE (b. 1933).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Ottaway, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Margaret Ottaway. The interview is taking place at Ms. Ottaway’s house in Louth, Lincolnshire, on the 21st November 2016. Can you tell me a bit about your childhood?
MO: I can. My mother and father were married before the First World War and they both grew up in Grimsby, Cleethorpes area and my father was one of twelve, and very poor and my mother was one of three and I don’t know why they came to Louth but they came to Louth, well, before I was born and before my late brother was born. But I think there were seven children and I am the sixth of seven. They lost two little boys, one when he was three, I think it was, and the other was three months and of course in those days there was no family allowance or help and of course the standard of the food was very poor and especially in a dock town and so my parents had that to cope with and I don’t know how they coped with it really, they came to Louth and then there was my brother who was seven years older than me, my sister was ten years older than me and I had a brother who was five years older than me and then we had a little sister, Prue, I don’t know when, a long, long time ago now we found out that she was Down syndrome and you can look at the photograph and see she was and we came to live in Louth and they lived in several houses before we lived on the top of Grimsby Road and the A16 as it was and when I was a little girl was a semi-detached house and of course there was not the population and there wasn’t the traffic and there weren’t the dangers even though it was wartime, as a child, you know, and I was always, had this outgoing attitude, I must have had because I can remember going into nearly all the houses both sides of the road, my younger sister didn’t come with me very often but she did come to some of the houses and you know, when you are a child, if you have a community, you are very cherished and I’ve realised that obviously more as I got older cause I love children and I’ve always loved children but anyway, oh, I know my father was in the army although because of his health he actually was registered in the army for a very short time I have some information about that and my mother was, worked in the Toc H in Louth and there were three houses and my maternal grandma who lived in Cleethorpes and was killed with my mum eventually, she spent a lot of time in our house because there was always sowing jobs to do and she used to make dresses for us and all that sort of thing, so my mother didn’t work and we always had a cleaning lady, some lovely cleaning ladies and one is still alive now and we had a very happy childhood from what I can remember, I know my brother who was five years older than me, he was always aggravating me and my older brother that by that time he’d gone into the RAF and in 1941 he was in [unclear] down in Bedfordshire but they were always at me, like big brothers are but I think it’s been a really good training because then of course my father started with a, in the 1920s with one lorry which was solid tyres which of course I’m drawing off and I got a photograph of, that’s a thing I must say, it’s staggering, we all know when photography started, well, I don’t know the exact year, but you know, it’s all these photographs, they are so important, and it’s alright having things on gadgets like computers but they can be wiped off and the hard copies that I am about to show you, it’s amazing, anyway my father started with one lorry and by the time I was around, there were about thirty, which is a photograph over there, and so he had thirty drivers and his business yard at the time was down in what is now Church Street, opposite the bus station but it was called Maiden Road and it was, I can see it now, because as a child, you know, you did lots of exciting things, really, like children do today but a totally different scale. But we had, always had this cleaning lady, the one we had at the time, she had brothers and they either had a small holding across the road, at the top of Grimsby Road, or they were, her father was a farm worker, of course we had a big farm at the back of us, relatively big not like today, called Howard’s, Mr and Ms, Howard and then we had Fanthorpe Lane, which is still there, but it’s dissected by the bypass and I used to go down there to take Sunday papers to this family called [unclear] and this family is been established a long while and people have said to me, in some of the things I’ve done in my life, the stability of families in an area like this does contribute to the community spirit that people that are strangers say, there is, I know there’s a community spirit but they feel it when they come in, so I’m very lucky because I have all sorts of proof about what happened to me because I didn’t know what happened to me except that my godparents were from King’s Lynn and they used to come and stay, we only had three bedrooms and we had, you know, Len, Darcy, John, Margret and Mary and mum and dad, so where we all slept I don’t know, we also had an air raid shelter, cause my father having thirty lorries was a very wealthy man for the time and but the family had a phone call from my auntie in Grimsby to say they were coming over for tea on Sunday afternoon, because one of her brother-in-law’s got a gallon of petrol from the army, that was a fatal thing to do, I can tell you, so they came from Grimsby and there was my auntie Violet, my uncle Walt, Genie, who was five as far as I know, and my uncle’s brother and his wife, they came in this, in the car and parked outside and they stopped for tea, usually one of my sister’s best friends used to come up to the house to keep me, to see my mum as well and my elder brother’s girlfriend used to come, when, if there’s anything on the siren, to keep my mum company and with the children, you see, on this occasion, because they knew the Grimsby family was coming for tea, they didn’t come, so they were all getting ready to get back to Grimsby, according to my late brother, who was in the house and he was upstairs, we were, for whatever reason, downstairs, my sister, my cousin and myself, we’d been put to bed downstairs in the front room, obviously we couldn’t all get into the air raid shelter, but I had no proof of why we didn’t go in but I assume it’s because of too many and as soon as the siren went, my father got his uniform on as a special constable and together with another lady called Ivy Platt who was very, very deaf and who was, the Platt family were big friends with my father’s, even when I was a little girl of four, [unclear] the photograph there and I don’t know how long they’d been friends but I think Ms Platt’s husband probably got into some financial difficulties, he was a grocer in Louth just up the road from where we are now and my sister Dorothy was an air raid warden at seventeen so they went down into the town, they took Ivy to her mum’s, Ms Platt and then dad went on duty and my sister went on duty with the air raid wardens cause they had different areas that they did, I mean, I don’t know cause I never asked her you see, you don’t ask [unclear] and I have all the records and just exactly what the gentlemen wrote Mr [unclear] that roughly it gives the time, it’s the official document, give the time, two screaming bombs were dropped on Louth at the top, at Grimsby Road, we don’t know exactly where but later found out it had dropped on a house and people were killed and injured, we later found out, seven were injured, seven were killed in that incident, we later found out that it was A W Jaines, Arthur Jaines, a special constable, it landed at his house so he’s lost with his daughter who was an air raid warden, fellow air raid warden, they lost seven of their kin and the seventh one was actually the lady who was visiting her daughter next door. And all I can remember is being aware that I was under rubble, trapped in rubble and that’s all I was aware of, you know, then I heard a drill and then I remember very little about being actually rescued and then the next thing I remember is being in one of the either the Toc H houses or the red cross places and you know those little beakers they used to drink out of, with the little spouts, I’ve got an example upstairs. Well, I can remember being offered that and a seven year old, as I say, I must emphasize this, you weren’t like you are today, are today, and I remember the atmosphere in that place, and there was someone brought in on the stretcher, now I obviously don’t know and I’ve never investigated it if it would be one of our family because of course it’s not far from the top of Grimsby Road to the hospital and then, so I don’t know about that, I do know that my brother who died last year, John, who was thirteen, I do know that he went somehow, my father wasn’t allowed to go up to Grimsby Road, which he wanted to do, and obviously my sister would be with him, and they went to Ms Platt’s because Connie was a red cross nurse although she was only seventeen and she was engaged to a police officer and so their home became a sort of centre for my dad and my sister and they had one of those metal shelters under their table cause they lived behind the shop and the shop, you know, is packed with things and they have this metal table and my, Ivy was also under the table and I have a tape where my Ms Connie who became my step aunt, she recorded it with her son cause I kept saying to her, why don’t you write it down? Cause I think, because she was seventeen, and far more aware, she couldn’t face writing it down, so her son, who’s, I think he’s retired now, but he has two chairs at the university, I think one was Cardiff, and I’ve been meaning to speak to him about it really, but anyway, so I also remember, going to my, being taken, I don’t know who took me but to my uncle’s house on Brackenborough Road, just near the post office on Brackenborough because my, a lot of my cousins of my generation have all died and with my father being one of twelve, some of the family came here, four of them came to live here because my father was here, and the others stayed in Grimsby so we’ve like two families. And my cousin who died several years ago now, she often used to tease me, she said, when you came that night, she said, it was about midnight I think, and you got into my bed and it was just like sleeping in a bed where you’ve been eating biscuits, that’ll be of ruttle, wasn’t it? And she said, I remember when you went to the lavatory, it was all lino in those days, the grit fell out of your trousers and she used to tease me about that but I, the next day I went to live at [unclear], uhm, I don’t remember being taken there, I think I must have been in shock, you know, and I think I was traumatised and people have said different things but I went to live with this family called John and Ethel Clark and they had a daughter, Beryl, who was a bit older than me and a son called Jim who was a bit younger and the [unclear] school I went to it has a church and it has a big house and we were in the big house, her mum and dad lived there and John Clark’s younger brother Henry lived there and they had cows of course and gas man and the village at the time had a school, a church, and you used to have and walk up cause it was very deep in the Wolds you’d have to walk up, and there’s a museum out there now, with farm machinery and a smith’s family lived there and a railway line runs through there and I can remember, I never seem to be unhappy, I don’t remember being unhappy there, Jim used to tease us a bit but I those days they used to raise money for the prisoner of war parcels and there was a big barn of course and had garden [unclear] and things like that and we went to church [phone rings]
AH: I just switch off.
MO: We always used to walk up to catch the bus at the top cause there’s several [unclear] you know, they’re all the same but if you look at a map you will see from Louth you can go several ways up to the Bluestone Heath Road, which is one of the longest roads, from, you can go from the Lincoln Road right through to the, if you were going to Alford and Skegness and we used to stand at the top there and it was chalk, you know, and it was freezing cold and things like that and then we used to go and I was sent by Ms Clark, bless her little heart, she was a very, very old fashioned lady and it was one of the best things she could have done for me, because I went in the, what they called the kinder garden which, if you walked down Schoolhouse Lane, and facing you is Suffolk House and it says, I think it’s three or even four stories high and then there’s the cellar, and that was where I went to school and I never achieved anything in exams or anything like but I did use to, but it obviously affected me and my teacher, who was a, taught scriptures as we called it and she became the first major of Louth, she would, she’d died unfortunately, her partner, lady partner, she knew me as the major of Louth, but it was amazing really what influence that school has been and still is because I’m still involved with it now all these years on. Anyway, I had a really happy time there, I used to go on the back with the big carthorse and the, you know, the all sorts of different carts on, and we used to, I used to go with Henry, I don’t know how Henry would be now, must ask his son cause his son’s living in Louth now, and I used to go and take the food with him and I was with them from September about the 9th until after Christmas because my dad, of course there was no house left, and we went to, dad lived at Ms Platt’s I think, just along the road here, and my sister, and we were all scattered really, but I don’t ever remember anybody saying to me, I remember one day when I was in the car with Mr Clark, he always had lovely cars and Mrs Clark was very old fashioned really and he was a bit of a lad I’ll have to say [unclear] my dad could have been as well, as most dads are, although not yours of course, and I don’t know why but I just feel that he might have, I might have been with him when the funeral was on cause obviously I wasn’t involved in that and I never asked my brother whether he was but it’ll be, I’ve got the list of the funeral of mourners and everything so that’s another thing we can, I can look at, but about, be about I think three months and then we moved up into a house just opposite the catholic church, in Upgate, they are very big houses those, and because my father had all these workmen, he had one chap called Sid Day, and Sid could do anything, he was actually like the yardman for my dad and his wife, they lived down in Upgate, they’ve widened the road now, [unclear] flow, you go up, there’s no garden and you go up the side of the house and it was all, there was no car pits or anything and it was like a room, but it wasn’t a room, it was more like a big shed but it was within the house, you see, and then you’d go into the kitchen, and then there was a front room which we hardly ever used and she had a big family and there were three girls and four boys I think, and there was a grandma was always there, but they used to babysit me and I used to wander about, you know, a seven year old, I used to go with my dad, seven year old children in my day, you didn’t and if dad happened to be in the Masons Arms, I was allowed in but girls weren’t even allowed in pubs, children, you see, so I’ve had a very different life from any other child at that age and I think that’s why I’ve got so much confidence you see and the other thing is I’m an avid cook and baker, all normal, ordinary stuff, and I can make meringues, I can make lemon meringue but I’m not into this, all this fancy stuff and Mrs Platt had a big kitchen and we all met up in there, cause of course there was a range and it was behind the shop, behind where they weighed all the soutanes and you know, I had a wonderful childhood and lots of love and still do have love from those families, especially my stepfamily and my dad’s friends, you know, four generations on. And not many people can say that, but I do get on people’s noses and I think it’s, my attitude is that bloody Hitler didn’t get me and nobody else did and I had to be tough, I had to be tough, anyway I obviously went to school, I was at Kidgate school but I was very independent and I can remember my, the cousin that I slept with that first night, she had an older sister called Pam and we decided, I should think Pam decided and I was well for it before the bombing that we would cycle to Grimsby and see our granny who lived on [unclear] Road and so, we didn’t tell anybody, and I had a fairy cycle and she would have one a bit bigger and I can remember doing that as if it was yesterday and we stopped at a house for a drink of water as you do, when we arrived at granny Jane’s, she was a very different cup of tea from my other granny, granny Walt, who was killed, we got told off and she rang my dad and we put on the bus and sent back. Now my cousin that I stayed the night with, on the night of the bombing, she actually married a German prisoner of war, which of course upset my father and, but he was a lovely man, much better than the one that Pam married, but I was sent, as I say, to the girls grammar school when I was seven and I went through the school until I was sixteen but I don’t think I got any qualifications, I don’t remember getting any qualifications, and so I left at, well, of course, and years later none of my brothers really encompassed education. Fortunately they’ve had sensible mothers but my father by this time had married Ivy Platt who was a lovely, lovely stepmother, she didn’t have a lot of maternal things with her son but my father was going to be the major when Michael was eighteen months old and so I was, well, I was told that I, cause I loved him anyway, so I looked after Michael so I didn’t go to work and then when the [unclear] was over, I decided I was going to go on work, I decided, I really wanted to be a [unclear] nanny but my father wouldn’t pay, it wasn’t that he couldn’t pay but he wouldn’t pay and probably didn’t want me to go away cause I always have felt for many, many years that I thought my father was protecting me, see, in actual fact, I’ve realized I’m the one that supports everybody else, I’m the tough one. And because I was always with my father and he died when I was twenty four of cancer but he was a very kind man, he was beneficiary to this little hospital, Crowtree Lane hospital, and St Margret’s children home, children’s home and with a group of the business men of the town, you know, they all and of course the war effort, Louth was an amazing place for raising money, you know, and all the railings were cut down and there was concerts in the town hall and it was, you know, I think that’s why I am like I am because there was so many good influences around, had plenty of bad ones but I’m four and [unclear] [laughs] but it was, it was very hard because I wanted to get a job and I went to the international stalls and made an arrangement to see the manager and my father found out and, oh, he was crossed, he was furious, you are not going to work behind a shop counter! If only he knew the things I’ve done to earn money since he died [laughs]. Anyway, I got a job at the Louth district hospital and, as receptionist, and it was five pounds an hour for forty eight hours and we lived at the time back up Grimsby road in a different house and when Michael was born, we actually lived at the house which is called Mount St Mary’s at the bottom of Grimsby Road where you go over the river lodge and where the floods came down in the twenties and then in 2007 and it’s next to the old cemetery and we lived there and then my father’s insurance man didn’t tell the whole truth about licencing and my father had to go to the high court in London, cause I was not really aware of all this, and he was fined fifteen thousand pounds and so he had to sell the house where Michael was born and we went up to Grimsby Road, so but, you know, my father had a rough time and then in the nineteen late forties, early fifties, the Labour government nationalized all [unclear] so, you know, we had no choice, and it broke his heart, broke his heart it did, cause you know, it was his baby, he did actually start another business for a short time but it wasn’t long, he died when he was sixty two. So that takes me as far as me getting married. I don’t know whether I’m telling you what you want to know or if you want to see some of the photographs of the bombing.
AH: I do in a bit but if you carry on.
MO: Right. Well, my late husband was a watch repairer and he used to park his car near the mount near the [unclear] saw him on a regular basis, you see, and so we started to go out a bit cause in those days you weren’t, you didn’t walk in and say to your parents, oh well, so and so has invited me out so I am going, there’s none of that, and so we used to go very regularly to Grimsby to the cinema or Cleethorpes and then to the lovely hotel called Kingsway for afternoon tea and believe you me, if you ever get a young man like that, enjoy it, because if you get married to him, it’ll all stop [laughs] but he was a gentleman, oh, he really, really was, he was often late, he was very casual about his business and at that time he’d been in the RAF, it never occurred to me that he was a lot older than me, he was actually twenty years older than me and he lived with his mother, his widowed mother in Alford, but he also had through his uncle a huge interest, which he was aware of, when they went fishing in a boat up where Bempton Cliffs is, in that area, and he was taken by all the birds and his uncle was interested mildly but anyway he had been in the RAF conscripted, he could have stayed at home and looked after the shop that they had in his, when his father died, this was before I knew him and he decided he didn’t want to do the shop, he was never interested in being a jeweller in a watch repairer but he’d done the training, eight years he was training at Lincoln at Mannsell’s and I have a letter from his father telling him really to pull his finger out and anyway he, at that time he was friendly with people obviously in Alford and they were starting the Gibraltar Point Nature Reserve and he is one of the people that started it, Charles Lenton Ottaway and a lot of the memorabilia that they sent down there after my husband died of course was washed away in the floods, I’ve never been back but we got engaged down there and he was a gentleman of the top order, he really was and we had a lovely wedding and then, as I say, we were living with his mum, he had a sister who didn’t like me apparently, there’s a surprise but I was shocked the letters she wrote to me four years after my husband had died and I looked after her mum for twenty five years, not all the time, but you know, and she was in a nursing home for ten and died when she was ninety six. You get lots of things like that, you know, you do your best and then I think my sister in law never got over the loss of the father when she was eight, it was very bitter and I don’t, I know that when I was twenty two I remember when we had, we moved from here cause we needed another bedroom but kept the shop and I remember thinking, what sort of woman do I want to be? And I decided that I didn’t want to be one that was a bit of a like [unclear] floozy, I wanted to be a proper mother and wife and cook and do and the lady across the road that, her husband used to be a partner of Eve & Ranshaw’s she, I’d known her all my life cause my sister went there to work when she was fourteen I think and if the children were poorly, she would come across and or if she was poorly needed some shopping I would do it and that’s who really, that sort of person is what I wanted to be and I’m not a warrior and I’ve learned over the years that you have to accept some things that happen to you and you don’t have to respond to people unkind to you, you feel sorry for them, I have a huge faith, I am grateful that I married my husband because he brought intellect, no common sense, I’ve got the common sense and no, hadn’t done the intellect got a bit now with the years and a lovely community with my mum and dad and the families that have been so lovely to me and still are, so that’s on the school. The school, my faith, my husband and my family and community and those are the four things that have stood me in good stead really and I am still very motivated, you know, I like to know, [unclear] my finger on the pulse, I get muddled [laughs], I went to put the milk, [unclear] with the milk just this afternoon, I thought you silly woman, you know, you, I was just tiding up I think and I put it in the cupboard, that’s right, where I bought the new porridge to put it [laughs], yes, but the extraordinary thing about the bombs dropping, there were two bombs dropped in February, February the 19th, at about four o’clock in the afternoon, 1941, and they were aimed at the railway station and I really just started to research the names on the memorial although I knew some of them, over the years I’ve known some of them, and the bombs seemed to roll, or one of them did, so it damaged the railway station and it killed a boy who was a grammar school boy and his father was a vicar, and when you walk down Eastgate, past Morrison’s, you come to, you can just see some of the railway bridge and he lived, they lived on, in a smooth brick house which is now for adults with learning difficulties and that’s, I could tell you, I don’t know if it’s [unclear] but the name is still the same and he and his friend had come home from the grammar school and he was a messenger boy, on a bike he used to that and he, his mother sent his friend home who lived across the road, he was from Grimsby really but their family had been evacuated from Grimsby to Louth and his father was a major in the army and he was under the kitchen sink. Now I think the kitchen sink would be like one I got out there now, an oblong of thick porcelain I’ll call it, you know, not, and he was killed and he was sixteen, another lady, there were two or three names on the war memorial where people were injured elsewhere and then died in Louth hospital, that’s why [unclear] war memorial. It’s all very fascinating, it’s all in paperwork I have but it was a obviously it’s, it doesn’t leave you and because of the way my life has gone and it’s now, you know, there’s lots of lovely people, I mean, this picture here, his name is Drewery who has hedgehog care and her daughter is Swing Out Sister, the lead singer in Swing Out Sister and she’s been a jazz singer and she, when I became the major, which was a huge honour, she send me a card and said that she liked and tried to paint a portrait, could I send her a picture of the, of me in the roads with a nice expression. And it’s on hardboard [laughs] and she brought it in one day, to see if I liked, if I was alright, just, if you don’t like it, you know, just put your plants on it, it’s lovely, I think, and I haven’t really realised because I don’t do things for attention, I really, really don’t but I know and a friend said to me yesterday a lady not, she’s older than me, and of course they still remember they’d been in Louth and she said, you’ve done so much for Louth, and everybody is always telling me that, cross with me now because I don’t ask them to do things for me now, but I didn’t realize I was doing it, you see, I was interfering really, I think it’s an interfering busybody, that’s what I am [laughs]. Yeah, if I was to go out and down the passage and see you off and somebody was mouthing off a lot of language, I’d be shouting, I shout out the window in the middle of the night, they wake me up, you know, I’m not scared of anything but mice, I put my grandchildren, my son thinks it’s hilarious, they really do but I’m so grateful that all these things here, you know, there was an exhibition in March in the museum and without people and then here’s an example, this is a letter, I was just tell you this because nowhere or I think only once have I seen my name mentioned in any of the newspaper accounts, the newspaper accounts they don’t say in Louth, in Lincolnshire, they say an eastern market town and G W Clark actually became my step uncle but at the time he was a nineteen year old police officer, he was engaged to Connie Platt and there was a mix up with bodies and because he was a family friend, which obviously he was because Connie isn’t on there and [unclear] isn’t on there but the little girl that I said was Margaret next to me with more hair than me, her mum is just behind her and she was Connie’s elder sister and Ivy was Connie’s elder sister as well, Connie was the youngest of four girls and two boys but this was sent to Bill although it’s G W Clark, Imperial War Graves, 21st of October 1941, Dear Sir, I have to thank you for returning the forms which was sent to you and for the information contained in your letter of the 15th, a form in respect of the late Ms Ward was sent to you with the other forms but apparently had gone stray I’m enclosing another form and would appreciate it if you would kindly complete it and return it to me. Your assumption, that Roland Hallett’s name will be included in the record of his Majesty’s forces is correct. Well, Roland was the brother of my uncle Walt. And it says, yours faithfully, G W Clark, which is really P C Clark, one of their [unclear], now the tape I’ve got, it’s not all as I have been told, you know, she was only seventeen and she brought this copy of this tape and she sat where you’re sitting, and I think I was sat here and she said, I thought it would be nice if we listened to that together, well, I didn’t want to do that, I really, really didn’t, cause I couldn’t say no, so we had a coffee and after the tape had run, I said to her, Connie, is there mentioned in all the press cuttings I’ve got, about why I survived when Mary and Genie didn’t? We were all in the same, if we weren’t in the bedroom we started, we obviously were very close, so she said to me, do you really want to know? And I said, I do, and of course it wouldn’t be easy for her to tell me she said, well, when Bill was sent, well, he went up there obviously because it is all much more casual then it is now, and I mean the whole, the area, there were a lot of people injured and as I say, Howard’s farm, one bomb dropped in the field just on our hedge and then the other one dropped just outside our back door as our two uncles were getting ready, getting the car revved up and ready to go back to Grimsby and so they took the full force, you see, my auntie Violet, who lost her husband and her daughter, she was trapped in the house and it was, you sort of went in and I think there must have been a sink there but it was arranged like [unclear] and she somehow was blown into the fireplace and a police officer was given an award, he’s only been dead a few years now, and he got a commendation for rescuing us, he was very seriously injured, so she said, do you really want to know? I said, yes, so she said, well, they got Genie out and Mary out and they were going to get, and they got to you and they thought you were dead as well and they protected me so that was a bit hard, really. But if it hadn’t been for Bill being there, and you see, because Mary’s name began with M, but on one of the paper cuttings it does say Margaret, but it’s only one. But so what you just have to think that you, I’m driven, I’m absolutely driven, I won’t say I hate being old because, I mean, that’s something that we all get to be, but I hate it that I can’t do and interfere [laughs], some of my fellow counsellors which I drop off the perch [laughs], they’ve had it [laughs], that’s where the, this house wasn’t there then, there was another bungalow and that’s, they were very seriously injured in there and this is the rebuild, and it’s not 32 now, it is a different number, but that was the site and I’m not quite sure what to do about some of these because, was trying to find the house, and that’s the back of the house
AH: Oh Gosh!
MO: And this is not our house, that’ the neighbours, and if you look, this picture here is a bigger one, if you look at these, the window here and our house is here, and this would have been taken down, our house, our remains would have been taken down because it wouldn’t be safe.
AH: No.
MO: Because my brother was upstairs in all this and so, it wasn’t quite as flattened as that, but that shows you, doesn’t it?
AH: This is completely gone.
MO: And my brother, when he went to, cause Connie was a very regular visitor, I think she got a red cross uniform on, went round to the red cross, that’s right, and John was there and so on the recording, I’ll lend you the recording, I’m a bit loathed to do it but you’ll look after it, won’t you?
AH: Yeah.
MO: And it’s about half an hour long and it’s very moving, it’s not exactly as I‘ve been told but Connie was very, very fond of my mum and when my dad married Ivy and then Ivy died, she, I was fifty, nearly fifty when Ivy died, and people loved to tell you, but of course your father was carrying on with Ivy, I’m not saying that he was, cause I’ve said already, my dad was quite, cause Ivy couldn’t hear, she was stone deaf and she couldn’t get a job very easily so dad let her work at the office and eventually when she married dad, she had the first, really, the first hearing aid in the town and it was, if you have a hand bag that’s like that, you know, one of those old fashioned sort of handbags and the batteries were in there and hearing aids were sort of very, very rare, by the time she, Amplifops it was called, by the time she died, she had these little hearing aids, but I mean she was always with us, always, and she wasn’t , you know, she wasn’t like some of these, you know, when we get themselves dressed up now, cause the young women got themselves dressed up with all the heavy lipstick, so that’s come back, hasn’t it? But the whole family, and I am still in touch with my cousin Margaret and my cousin Anthony, his mum and dad were in the RAF at the time, and I met him and his wife in Lincoln for lunch not long time ago, yeah, so it’s been lovely, but I’ll, I’ll tell you what I’ll do, I’ll let you take the tape, now I’ll just show you this, and you’ll see on here, these are the ones that were killed and these are the ones that were injured and some of them, this is all on the night of the September the 7th, you see, it’s amazing, I knew this chap, this is Steven, he was a police superintendent I think,
AH: And this, what’s this? Were they aiming at Louth, do you know?
MO: No, that’s the next piece of, oh, here is one, no incident in area d, that we all did a quick dive for the floor as two bombs streamed down over the town, we could not make out where they had fallen at the time but found later that they had dropped on the Grimsby road, regret seven people were killed and others seriously injured, we express our deepest sympathy to A W Jaines special and D Jaines fellow warden in their bereavement, six members of the family were killed, now there’s
AH: You read that, sorry.
MO: My uncle Walt, he was my, he became my uncle Walt, come in!
AH: Just put on pause.
US: Hi!
MO: When, I’ve been so lucky to get all these cuttings from people and this is a copy of the cutting I got, I think from my auntie Connie, a sympathetic note, I find it difficult to express here in these simple notes the sympathy we all are feeling today for Mr A W Jaines and his family in the tragic loss they have sustained. Ms Jaines was a canteen leader in the second talvert house, she gave herself on sparing [unclear] for this work, and her cheerfulness was an inspiration to us all, it was only three days ago that I was with her at the second house and it is difficult to believe she has passed on. She gave her time to us knowing that other mothers were doing the same for her son who was serving, to all who are bereaved and to the sick and sorry I send these lines hoping they might be of some help in the difficult days in which they are passing. At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. And I put, added, one died on the September the 7th 1941. And this tribute was written on the 10th of September 1941. Now, to not have a [unclear], and know, because everybody’s told me, and I mean, the cleaning ladies we had, they’ve all said the same thing, and the funny thing is, the most amazing thing to me and I must give her a ring because I haven’t heard from her, when my mum and dad’s friend was Mrs Whitfield, the one on the left there, holding a little boy, when our mother was killed, my sister Dorothy obviously, well, through dad as well I suppose, used to keep in touch with her, and of course when Dorothy died, I took it up and Mrs Whitfield’s now died so I’m in touch with one of her girls, it’s on that photograph, we’ve been corresponding as families all these years, and her father used to work for Vickers, Vickers aircraft in Newcastle and I thought he was in the army but he wasn’t and this is only coming out recently cause one of her sisters, she was called Evelyn and I’m in touch with her, one of her sisters is called Daphne and my daughter, Linda, was named after Linda Lorden Smith, very elderly lady who used to live in Upgate, and my husband used to do her clocks for her and everything and so when we had Linda, I said, why don’t we call her Linda? Well, Linda’s daughter, Linda Lorden’s daughter died and I remember, Mrs Lorden’s was saying to me that the girl, the lady that used to help her, named one of her daughters after Daphne, Daphne was in her nineties, so I was saying to Evelyn on the phone, I said, cause they’ve bene to see me and her mum must have been born round her but I haven’t quite found out her maiden name, and she came, they came, two of the girls came and stayed in a B&B and went visiting people that they were connected to down on the coast but I never twigged that she’d worked for my mother and it was only a matter of two, three months ago, I said something about, cause her surname, her maiden name is Whitfield, and so she said, my mother used to work for somebody called Jaines, cause she hadn’t twigged either that that was my name [laughs], I said, you’re joking, she said, oh no, and you see, we’ve always sort of picked a lot up as we went along, she went to work for a lady, this Mrs Whitfield, went to work for a lady before she was married, down on the coast and she was a maiden lady and she had two little girls and it was Ms Measures that she worked for and we, Evelyn doesn’t know anything about Ms Measures, so I’m trying to research Ms Measures cause she was horrible to their mum and that’s all come through I think through my sister to me, cause I can’t remember where I’ve heard that, but I wouldn’t make that up and so my mum and Evelyn said that this lady wasn’t very nice to her mum and so that’s why she was working for my mum. And so that tells you a lot, doesn’t it? Now you see, I don’t think for one minute, my, Ivy’s son, Michael will know all about that, he knows all about dad cause he bores everybody to death with it, cause dad was a very, very successful man for his days but I met him the other day, I was with a couple, Michael that is and he just come out of the solicitors, but I was walking arm in arm cause it’s going up a sloop right Rosemary Lane, it’s not much and I, we are only acquaintances really but we are friends if you know what I mean, and then Michael came out the office, he didn’t look down, he just, so I said [unclear] and he turned round and he came back, he never does that, and said, these are friends of mine, that spent half the time in France and half here, so he says, l alright, I said, this is my brother, he says, hallo, he said, I don’t suppose you knew that dad walked down here and walked into the wall cause it’s an adjacent, there’s as wall that sticks out and then you go down a bit and then there’s another wall and he was a special and he had glasses you see and he liked his whiskey and so I said, no, I don’t think I did know that, oh alright and then off he went [laughs], our niece who lives opposite the Brown Cow, where Michael drinks now with his partner, she said, she came in on Saturday and she said, he never says anything, when I walk to the pub which, they don’t go in as much as Michael, he says something to her about dad every time, he’s so boring [laughs]. Anyway there’s plenty more for you to go at, has it given you something to start with?
AH: Yes, that’s lovely, thank you. What’s your date of birth?
MO: My date is the 25th of the 6th ’33.
AH: Thank you.
MO: And I’m lovely with it. Now if you’d like to.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Margaret Ottaway
Creator
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Anna Hoyles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOttawayM161121
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:58:49 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Margaret Ottaway lived in Louth, the sixth of seven children, and tells of her childhood there. Tells of an air raid shelter they had in the house. Witnessed, as a seven year old, an enemy air raid on 19 February 1941, which caused damage and casualties and gives a vivid account of it. Tells of herself being buried in rubble and discovering many years later how she survived the bombing, unlike her sisters. Tells of her family: her father a special constable and a business man, a seventeen year old sister serving as an air raid warden. Talks about her marriage and her husband, a watchmaker who was among the establishers of Gibraltar Point Natural Reserve. Tells of a memorial dedicated to the victims of the air raid.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Louth
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941-02-19
Air Raid Precautions
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
memorial
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1052/11430/POatleyK1701.2.jpg
be795ca0b07853007aa77c562bfeb00c
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1052/11430/AOatleyK170321.1.mp3
9f337a41a3840e6e82e8841355f9d0a1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oatley, Ken
K Oatley
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ken Oatley (b. 1922). He flew operations as a navigator with 627 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-05-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Oatley, K
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: I’ll just introduce myself, so, this is, this is David Kavanagh introduce, interviewing Ken Oatley at his home [file missing] borne, 21st of March 2017. So, I’ll just put that down there.
KO: Surely.
DK: Hang on, If I keep looking down I’m just making sure it’s still working
KO: Still functioning,
DK: Still functioning, yeah. It’s, it can be a bit temperamental at times, that looks, that looks ok. [unclear] that. I’ll just like to ask so first of all, what were you doing before the war?
KO: I was going to be a professional violinist.
DK: Really?
KO: My father, I won a scholarship to the Royal Academy when I was fifteen,
DK: Right.
KO: But I had no one to live with in London so I had to put it off for another year, then I had to take an examination that year to get the exhibition the year after that which actually brought me up too far close to the war and, even then, I had a year to go before I could get into the Air Force so I joined the Home Guard, did my duties as far as I could from then, and at that time, it was the 13th of September I think of ’39 that I was in headquarters and the phone rang and call out all the home guard, we’re anticipating the invasion immediately, so that passed over of course and October came and I thought, well, really it’s time and I just was old enough then to volunteer so I volunteered for aircrew in October of 1940.
DK: [unclear] back to me, when you were in the Home Guard, what were your sort of roles then? What were you actually doing, were you guarding anything or?
KO: No, I was in headquarters most of the time, but I had to take out messages or anything that required, you know, but I was there nights and so forth.
DK: So were you mostly young men there waiting to be called up or sort of [unclear]?
KO: No, no, they were all a lot much older than me.
DK: Alright. Alright, so you applied then to the Air Force, so
KO: Mh.
DK: It was always your intention then to,
KO: I always wanted to fly.
DK: Alright. Yeah, so did you actually go into pilot training then?
KO: Yes, in, I started flying in April of ’41, it was April so, anyway. And did the usual six weeks at Blackpool and then waiting for a course to come around they sent me to Northern Ireland guarding an auxiliary airfield there against the IRA and then in Maytime they sent me over then to Scone, that Scone, there was at, oh God! This is, my memory is, north of, in Scotland,
DK: Ah, ok.
KO: On the east coast top, anyhow that was the biggest town north. We were there prepared to go down to ITW then at Scarborough, by, by June then I was flying from Sealand on the wirrell
DK: What type of aircraft were you flying?
KO: Tiger Moths.
DK: Ah!
KO: Which I did, I loved flying and I had the aptitude for it and I really thoroughly enjoyed my time there, it was wonderful.
DK: What did you think of the Tiger Moth?
KO: Oh, I liked it very much and I, our last hour or two that we had on the course, my friend and I, we were supposed to be going out for three quarters of an hour flight at night in the evening, come back and report and then go back and do another three quarters of an hour so I said to my mate, well, this is a bit of a waste of time, I’ll meet you over the river Dee and we’ll have a dogfight, which we did. When time came to, to come back to report in, he disappeared and I thought, well, I don’t know where the heck I am [laughs], we wandered about somewhat for three quarters of an hour so I had, eventually I had to give up and I saw a farm with smoke coming out of the chimney and I decided, well, that looks alright so I made a forced landing into this field, knocking out a host of surveyors posts on the way down and a ditch that was half way across which I hadn’t noticed. Anyhow I landed there and a motorcyclist came in and I got out and spread my map on his handle bars and asked him where I was and he gave to, I was in the middle of Lancashire so I flew back and,
DK: You’ve gone that far south?
KO: Yes. So, anyway, I was up for the wing code the next morning,
DK: Were you able to take off out the field then?
KO: Yeah, I did, half the field
DK: Yeah, so that was
KO: It was,
DK: Damaged the aircraft?
KO: No, no, it was a bit dodgy, there was a wood at the end of the field and I just caught the width to the corner of it and I managed to get through, anyway we landed there and the next morning I was up in front of the CO and charged which it was going to be a court martial but he let me go on [unclear] cause I was the first one to solo [unclear] thirties so I thought, you know, I’m made for this and so I was taken off the Spitfight posting and ended up in Canada flying Oxfords. We were on the Oxfords for some while and then there was, Bennett was just do the Pathfinders setup and he had no navigators, only map readers really, observers, don’t tell him I [unclear], but he had no navigators so he took five pilots off of every pilots course in Canada, brought us home to do the Middle course on the navigators, then go onto flying,
DK: So, you were actually on a pilot’s course in Canada.
KO: Yeah, yeah.
DK: Got called off by Bennett,
KO: Yeah,
DK: Because he needed navigators,
KO: Yeah,
DK: How did you feel about that at the time?
KO: Not very happy, I must admit, but anyway.
DK: How were you chosen, was it almost a lottery or?
KO: Well, I don’t know, I think probably I wasn’t landing them very well. I came down [unclear], the approach was hundred percent, I touched down on the wheels, nice and quietly, as soon as the tailwheel had dropped, which off the runway we’d had, my instructor never once told me that I should be doing three point landings, never mentioned, then when the CFI took me up, I did the same thing and he then asked my instructor whether he’d taught me three point landings, of course he said, oh yes, of course he has, and so I was one of the five that got tucked out.
DK: So, it might have been poor training on the trainer’s part, not I suppose, [unclear]
KO: Well, I mean, it seems simple enough, things say you should be doing three-point landings. I landed quietly and smoothly, you know, and,
DK: And this would have been the Oxford, would it?
KO: Yeah, yes. Anyhow I came back home, nearly torpedoed on the way home.
DK: Can you remember which ship you came back on?
KO: [unclear] Dam and just out of Halifax I was on my sway hammock and there was an enormous bang, I thought, my God, we’d been torpedoed, and I bet, I was four flights down and I bet I was, tops of that before anybody else [laughs]. However, there happened to be a torpedo, a destroyer had come alongside and for no apparent reason, and he happened just to take the torpedo and the thing was sunk with all hands and we just carried on, there was fire
DK: You can’t remember the name of the destroyer that was lost?
KO: No, no, no.
DK: No. Did you actually see it go down or?
KO: No,
DK: No.
KO: But we were told.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But you see, we were in two passengers, well, one was obviously a passenger ship and we were in a sort of half and half but there were five hundred aircrew on board ships, then we had several destroyers flying around us all the way back across the Atlantic. It took three weeks coming home cause we went all over the place and got back to England and put me on the navigation course which we did one course at Grand Hotel, oh, Eastbourne,
DK: Right. Yep, yep.
KO: Six weeks and then we were sent off on a ship again, I thought, we are going back to Canada again, which I didn’t like cause I got engaged to a girl in Canada while I was out there. Anyway, we went to South Africa and I was, from start to finish it was nearly eight months, wasted out of my flying time, going down there, doing the course and coming back again and we spent three weeks at Clairwood race course in tents. Then they moved us to East London and we were there for another six weeks and while we were there I met somebody there quite out of the blue, he asked me what we did, what our hobbies were, said well, I played the violin, oh, he said, I know somebody who’d be interested in you so he took me up the road to this gentleman and he said, would you like to play me something? So I played him one of the better class pieces that I used to perform and he said, would you like to play with the municipal orchestra on Sunday? This was Thursday, so I did that and did that the following month, so that was the virtually, the last time I played the violin at all, really.
DK: So you never played it since then?
KO: No, not really, no.
DK: No, no.
KO: So, anyway we got back and messed about for ages and I did,
DK: How did you feel when all this was going on, you were going to South Africa [unclear] was there a certain amount of frustration or?
KO: Yes I, you know, it was very enjoyable,
DK: Yeah.
KO: But it wasn’t what I wanted to do. Anyway we got back and there was so many aircrew trained here messing about Bournemouth was full of them all the time, they didn’t know what to do with us, anyhow we ended up at Harrogate, we were sent off on a commander course to start with at Whitley Bay, six weeks and then they sent me up to Scone to sit in the back seat of a Tiger Moth with a [unclear] recently qualified pilot in front and I was another six weeks messing about there, well, that was barely started the navigation course properly so I don’t think I was gonna get there.
DK: Was navigation something you took to easily, was it?
KO: Oh yes, I was, no worries about that, and then I was onto OTU and from what I understand I was, uhm, was the top of the class in both flying and ground subjects and,
DK: Can you remember which OTU it was you went to?
KO: I can never remember the name of it, was north of Oxford.
DK: Right. Is not in there, in the logbook.
KO: It would be, I suppose. It’s more likely in the back of my pilot’s, pack of pilot’s
DK: That one.
KO: But in the back,
DK: Oh, right, ok. So, what year are we talking about now then? It’s,
KO: That’ll be ’42.
DK: ’42, alright. So that’s the Oxford, so that’s ’41, ’74, you are still flying in ’74.
KO. Oh that’s, that’s flying here.
DK: Right.
KO: It’ll be very, very close to, no, but it wouldn’t be in there, yes, on the back, on the back page, I got all the
DK: Ah, right.
KO: All the,
DK: Ah, right, ok, so ’40,
KO: In, here, up here.
DK: [unclear] ’43.
KO: And here.
DK: 16.
KO: 16.
DK: Ah, right, so, I’ll just say this for the benefit of the tape so it’s 16 OTU Upper Hayford. So you were there from the 10th of August 1943,
KO: Yeah,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Then we went onto Scampton and then to Swinderby.
DK: And that was,
KO: On Stirlings
DK: 16
KO: We did Wellingtons at
DK: 16 OTU
KO: 16 OTU,
DK: Yeah,
KO: And then we went on the Stirlings
DK: And that was at Swinderby
KO: Yes and then the Lancs
DK: Right, so, at 1660 Conversion Unit, Swinderby, that was the Stirlings.
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah, and then at Syerston,
KO: Yes,
Dk: That was 5 Lancaster finishing school.
KO: Yes.
DK: So, at Upper Hayford was the Wellingtons?
KO: Yes.
DK: Yes, so what was your feeling about the Wellington then as an aircraft?
KO: Oh, fine and my pilot that I had there, although he hadn’t all that many arrows in, he was fine and we got on very well, our crew was first class and everything we did, we were quite well appraised for.
DK: So how did your crew get together then?
KO: Oh, we all, they put us in a hangar and said, I’m sorry, sort yourselves out, so to speak, you know.
DK: You just found yourselves a pilot,
KO: Yes, from
DK: Do you think that worked well?
KO: Yes, it did in our case.
DK: Yeah.
KO: I had an excellent crew and I was very sorry that we went on from there to Metheringham,
DK: Right.
KO: With Gibson squadron.
DK: 106 Squadron.
KO: And my pilot went on a Second Dickey trip with his, with a crew that were on their last operation,
DK: Right.
KO: And failed to return. So, we were sent back to Scampton again in to be recrewed. If they’d given us another pilot, which would have been more sensible, they split the whole crew up as far as I can [unclear] gave us another crew of odd bodies that they had and he wasn’t too bad, he wasn’t as good as my other pilot, you know, they were a little bit lumpy, but see my trouble was, my navigator’s seat was well back from the front and as I remember it seems I had a little office of my own now, the only,
DK: This was the Wellington,
KO: Stirling.
DK: Stirling, right, ok.
KO: And my only chance of talking to the pilot was on the intercom.
DK: Right.
KO: So I never was anywhere near him. It was when we got on to Syerston to the Lancaster, I was sitting right behind him as you realised and he had the most dreadful body odour that you could ever imagine, it really was out of this world,
DK: Oh dear,
KO: And so I took the crew up to the wing commander after we’d just sort of finished the early stages with the Lanc and I said, I can’t fly with this bloke, we all agreed, nearly court martialled, I [unclear] go for, go for a [unclear] you know and anyway we sent back to Scampton again and,
DK: So, you’ve gone back to Scampton for a third time.
KO: Yes, yes.
DK: Alright. When you, just going back to 106, you never met Gibson then, did you?
KO: No.
DK: I, just for the, slightly confusing that for the tape, just for the benefit of the tape, what I’ll say here is where you were, so initially it was Upper Hayford with 16 OTU from the 10th of August 1943, then it was Scampton 15th of December ’43, then 1660 Conversion Unit at Swinderby from the 8th of February ’44 on Stirlings,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then 5 Lancaster finishing school at Syerston,
KO: Yes.
DK: from 28th of March ’44, obviously on Lancasters, then 106 Squadron your pilot went missing as a Second Dickey, so back to Scampton again, then Swinderby,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then 5 Lancaster finishing school, Syerston again,
KO: Yes.
DK: Then back to Scampton because it’s problems with the pilot,
KO: Yes. On 106.
DK: On 106, and then on, I’ve got here, then onto 627, so that was, that’s the next question,
KO: Yes, yeah.
DK: Yeah, ok. So, you’ve complained about your pilot then and what happened then?
KO: Oh, they didn’t do him any harm or anything, I’m just, my memory gets so bad at times, other times I can go with, like, you know, what was the question?
DK: It was, you’re back at Scampton and you complained about the pilot, cause of the body odour,
KO: Yes.
DK: So what happened then?
KO: Well, straight away I was sent to Woodhall Spa from there.
DK: Right, ok. And that’s with 627 Squadron.
KO: 627 Squadron, yes.
DK: Yeah, ok. So, what were you flying at 627 then?
KO: Mosquitoes.
DK: Yeah. What did you think about the Mosquito?
KO: Oh, marvellous.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Yes, I, never complaints about the Mosquito.
DK: Was it a bit of a shock when you’ve gone from four engine bombers?
KO: It was lovely.
DK: Yeah. So you,
KO: Oh. Beautiful.
DK: So you never flew any operations on the four engine bombers?
KO: No, not again, no, no, no. It was all on the Mosquitoes from there on.
DK: Alright.
KO: And then of course the first, the move from Metheringham to Woodhall Spa was like chalk and cheese, you know, [unclear] it, well, every moment we, there we enjoyed the flying and the operational side of it and,
DK: Yeah.
KO: It was just something once in a lifetime, you know.
DK: What was Woodhall Spa like as an airfield then?
KO: It was big enough for what we wanted cause they were flying 617 from there as well so they had to cover the twenty thousand pound bomb weight on runways cause it was just a small camp, on the outside there was no main buildings to it at all, we were very much countryfied.
DK: Did you go to the Petwood Hotel at all?
KO: No, that was 617’s privilege that was,
DK: Ah, right.
KO: We were in the Nissen huts.
DK: [laughs] oh, ok.
KO: Which was a bit of a comedown.
DK: Did you get to know anyone of the 617 crew?
KO: I did but I can’t remember the names now. [laughs] Funnily enough, one of the well known ones that flew with Gibson on the dams, I went into the sergeants mess one day and he was playing cards with a table full of crews there for 617 and he said, can you lend me a pound? So, I lend him the pound, never expecting to get it back again, when I came out of the Air Force about four years after that, I happened to be standing in front of my restaurant in Northampton and who should come in? This chap I’d lent the pound to. So, I caught him and I got me pound back on it [laughs].
DK: [unclear] oh excellent, [laughs], well he did owe it to you.
KO: Yeah, having done the dams raid he was lucky to.
DK: Yeah. So, you can’t remember who that was then now?
KO: I, a flash came into my head, I got an idea whose name, was Monroe, was it?
DK: Les Monroe? Yeah, Les Monroe.
KO: Yeah.
DK: The New Zealander?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, yeah. He owed you a pound [laughs].
KO: Yeah. He just walked in the shop, not knowing I was there.
DK: Yeah.
KO: I just recognized, I said, hey you.
DK: I actually met Les a couple of times when he came over to UK, last few years. So, you’re now on a Mosquito squadron, so what was your actual role then as 627 Squadron, what were you?
KO: We were at 99 percent for marking, for main force.
DK: Right.
KO: And we were the only squadron that did what we did. We were way ahead of everybody else, and we had to dive, we introduced dive bomb marking which was not heard of before 627 Squadron was formed. But they started off the first two or three months joining in with the, flying backwards and forwards to Berlin in those days and then when we moved up with 617 Squadron, we started doing what we did, that was our thing, and that was flying ahead of main force and being there three minutes before the actual time we needed to be there because that was ten minutes between, let me try to explain it a different way, the flares, the target was illuminated by one or two squadrons of Lancasters from our station to drop thousands of luminating shares over the target area and five of us went out separately to the target and stood off until the first markers went down illuminating, lights went down and on the, dead on the spot, they were there ten minutes before the time for bombing and we went in, in that ten minutes under the flares, dive bombed the marker onto the target for about, well, anything from three, two, three hundred feet, from fifteen hundred feet and it was purely up to the pilot because he dropped the bomb, the had a china graph pencil mark on his windscreen and he, that was his only guide he had to drop his markers, and they used to put that according to how they saw it in height and that sort of thing that needed to be very careful and then we would drop off the markers at about two hundred feet, something like that.
DK: Two hundred feet.
KO: Well, we, we flew round Dresden at three or four hundred feet, probably five hundred feet for nearly ten minutes.
DK: Yeah, yeah. So, the illuminators went in first,
KO: Yes.
DK: They illuminated the target area.
KO: Yes.
DK: So you could then see where to drop your
KO: That’s right.
DK: drop your indicators by
KO: Yes.
DK: [unclear] moving on the target.
KO: Yes.
DK: And then the main force came in.
KO: After that, yes.
DK: Yeah. So, how was that controlled then? Was it?
KO: Just on timing.
DK: Literally on timing, so there’s no one there.
KO: No, no, no, no, we had to be there three minutes before the, ten minutes if you like,
DK: Right, yeah.
KO: Thirteen minutes, three minutes we had to get in our track in to go in and do our dive in.
DK: Right.
KO: That was just for error, for coming from, over from Holland down to Dresden, we had that little margin of difference, so at ten to the target, the Lancasters then came in, they had ten minutes to bomb on the markers that we had laid.
DK: So, can, just stepping back one bit, can you remember where your first operation was to then?
KO: Uhm, Bremen.
DK: Bremen. And how many operations did you actually do then?
KO: I, we did twenty-two operations altogether.
DK: Twenty-two.
KO: They were spread over a little bit but, see we only did, we had enough crews that we only did one every five.
DK: Right.
KO. We had thirty crew, thirty crew men on the, for fifteen aircraft and we only ever sent five aircraft out on an operation, so we had, there was, sort of,
DK: It’s quite a long period between flight then,
KO: Yeah, yes.
DK: So, can you remember when the tour started and when it ended, how long it was for, roughly?
KO: The first tour?
DK: Yeah.
KO: I’m having a particular bad day today, I don’t know why it is, but, oh Jesus! [laughs] I’m lost.
DK: Is it, will it be recorded in here anywhere?
KO: Yes, it was about, the middle, the middle of June-July of forty
DK: ’44.
KO: ’44.
DK: Ok, here we go, yeah, so, that’s 627 Squadron
KO: Yes.
DK: At Woodhall Spa.
KO: Yes.
DK: So, on the 25th of July
KO: Yes.
DK: ’44, so that’s all practice
KO: Yes. Our night operations were in red.
DK: Right.
KO: So, we did, only did one in every three.
DK: Ok, that way we’ll, so, that’s all practice so, uhm, cross country, practice.
KO: We practiced at least five times for every operation we did.
DK: Alright. Ok, so we got off ways to see if we got Gladbach, that’s Monchen Gladbach presumably.
KO: So, that was where Gibson got lost,
DK: Right, alright, ok.
KO: So, that was his own fault.
DK: [laughs] We’ll come back to that in a minute. Ok, [unclear]
KO: Yes, I think we did four in one week, which was an exceptional.
DK: Right.
KO: My first op was a day run to L’Isle-de-Adam, a bomb dump north of Paris. We had a fairly leisurely time as you can see.
DK: I see there is an awful lot of practice between the actual raids, isn’t it?
KO: Yeah, it was about five, one in five. Really, what brought that about was we had to have the aircraft on for that night, and they had to have a morning test before,
DK: Right.
KO: And we used the test to go and do a bombing run on the sands at
DK: [unclear]
KO: [unclear], yeah.
DK: So, navigation then and timing clearly needs to be very accurate.
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But we didn’t do anything really, we flew, normal thing was that we flew out to Holland and turned from just over the coast of Holland, turned down to the, wherever we were going, from there it was, we had no troubles [unclear], we went more or less our own way, we knew what time we had to be there and that but.
DK: So, I think this is your first operation the 6th of October ’44 to Bremen.
KO: That was the first time when we used our dive bomb technique.
DK: Right, ok.
KO: It was, they didn’t know really what it was gonna be like and they told the CO that he wasn’t to go on that operation.
DK: Oh, alright. So, then you got the Mittelland Canal on the 6th of November ’44.
KO: They were easy.
DK: So, it’s got bolted flares over [unclear]. And then you’ve got, 21st of November the Dortmund-Ems Canal.
KO: Mhm, there were two or three of those.
DK: And then I’ve got here the 13th of December ’44, the Cologne and Emden ships cruisers.
KO: Yes, that was in, that was in the Oslofjord, but they moved them by the time we got up there and it was a wasted trip.
DK: So, this is [unclear] called off by marker one.
KO: Yes, well.
DK: So, it was a
KO: I can, this, as I was saying to my friend today, I’ve worried about that ever since and I cannot understand because I was absolutely dead on track all the way up there, I said the only thing I can excuse myself in is that the pilot was running ten miles an hour, he was on three hundred and twenty instead of three hundred and thirty and he would jump down my throat if I suggested that but I couldn’t find no other reason for being late cause we were dead on course for everything.
DK: Yeah, [unclear] this, that’s [unclear].
KO: That’s, that was stacked down for a purpose. Probably made a mess of it so.
DK: So, then we got 14th of January ’45 and it’s oil refinery at Mersberg. So, that’s and it’s got here two times one thousands, so that’s two one thousand pound bombs.
KO: Yeah.
DK: And the red target indicators. So that’s [unclear] what you’ve dropped and. So, then it’s 2nd of February ’45 Karlsruhe. It says target obscured by cloud. Sky marking only.
KO: Yes.
DK: So then, 2nd of Feb, Dortmund.
KO: Dortmund.
DK: It says one target marked.
KO: I’m doing well, aren’t I? [laughs]
DK: And then, 8th of Feb, Politz-Stettin, oil refinery. Stettin oil refinery, yeah. And then the 13th of Feb ’45, ops Dresden. Marker two. And then backed up, one one thousand pounder, red TI. So, just talking about that then, what actually happened on the Dresden raid? Was..
KO: Well, the, there was a trade wind blowing to start with and normally, starting off from home, we would climb to the operating height, going out and we would take a fix every three minutes and find an average wind which we would calculate to fly us on from there to Dresden. But this MIG wasn’t working particularly well and when we got to the turning point, it was a question of hops and choices to how you carried on from there. So I part guessed well I could [unclear] what I’d got already to choose from and then I realised that the thing that we had installed in the aircraft which I’d never used before, I’d never been instructed on because it was introduced while I was on leave, I thought, well, I’ll give it a go and see if I hadn’t have the charts with me and so, I took him, took him down on that, bearing as it was, there was a line running straight through Dresden that I could put up on the machine, that was terrible cause on a Gee box you had to two stroves running like that, but on this particular case, when I went on to the LORAN, it was like that and right across the thing as you couldn’t tell which was which, you had to take a guess at it and fortunately I guessed right and I didn’t navigate all the way down there. I just kept on one line and then I could, guide him down along this line all the way down to Dresden and then there was a one, there was another line crossing the second line there which went through Dresden and as soon as I kept switching backwards and forwards to that, and when that line came up, I said, right-oh Jock, we’re here now. We were three minutes early and doing the right one turn, another one [unclear] the arrival and then the main force came, we had the, the uhm, the squadrons that were dropping in there, illuminating flares came in at ten to eleven and we were just on the edge of the city, sitting there, waiting for them. We had to put those down and then we went in and dived in and we were just, just about to call out marker two, tally-ho, and number one tally-ho didn’t just in front of us so we had to go round again and
DK: So you, so marker one got his markers in first
KO: He was the flight commander anyway,
DK: Right, ok.
KO: So, couldn’t, he couldn’t
DK: Right. So, your markers then were the second to go.
KO: Yes.
DK: Right.
KO: Btu we were the most accurate.
DK: Right.
KO: On that.
DK: And how low would you’ve been when you dropped the markers?
KO: About three hundred feet.
DK: As low as that.
KO: Well, we were so low, that as we flew away from there, my pilot was looking back to see if he could see where they’d dropped and I had a shout at him because we were just gonna hit the spires of the cathedral, so I had to pull him up on that one. And then we just circled around Dresden for three or four minutes at five hundred feet and then we came home.
DK: And did you see much of the main force bombing then in that five minutes?
KO: They just started to bomb,
DK: Right.
KO: And I think they let a couple of four hundred, four thousand pounders off as we weren’t all that high and we could feel the, [unclear] get out quick now
DK: I just, for the benefit of the tape, I just read what it says here, so, 13th of Feb ’45, you took off at 2000 as, Mosquito F, so your pilot was flying officer Walker and your navigator so it says, ops Dresden, marker two, which you mentioned backed up, so is that meaning you backed up marker one?
KO: Yes.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Well, we got in, it was a football stadium
DK: Right.
KO: We got our marker in the football stadium.
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: And the others were in a bunch, nearly [unclear] a hundred yards,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Way but,
DK: So, your second ones down was actually the more accurate and then it’s got one thousand, so you got a thousand-pound bomb and red
KO: They were a thousand-pound flares.
DK: Oh sorry, so you dropped one-thousand-pound red target indicators
KO: Yeah, yeah.
DK: Sorry, yeah, so one thousand red target indicator. And you
KO: And the others all backed up after that.
DK: Yeah. So, you arrived back at 0540?
KO: I know my, my history today to you doesn’t sound very much but on my claim for a commission, my squadron commander and the camp squadron commander both put down that we were the best crews, one of the best crews of the squadron.
DK: Oh!
KO: We did do well, I mean, we felt that we, if we dropped our markers that was bloody well close on it and of course the last operation we did was at Tonsberg oil refinery at the
DK: Right.
KO: The, first up towards Oslo and
DK: So, were all the operations with Walker?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. And was he a good pilot?
KO: He was a good pilot and he was good at dropping the bombs too. We were the best on that one as well. But, I know it sounds terrible, our successes and that sort of thing but sometimes they went right and sometimes they didn’t and sometimes if our radar wasn’t working up to scratch, we
DK: So, when you were briefed for Dresden then, it was just an ordinary briefing
KO: Yes.
DK: And an ordinary target.
KO: Yes. When I was allocated onto a new job I’d only been on the squadron about six weeks, two months when I was sent to RAF Wyton 1409 Met Flight
DK: Right.
KO: For a two week crash course on wind reporting then I found myself that we were doing a big operation in south Germany and we had to stop at Manston to refuel and my job then was to decide two hundred miles from the target whether it was gonna be satisfactory for the main force to continue on to attack the target and if I didn’t think it was gonna be satisfactory, my job was to call them out and send them home.
DK: So, you’ve gone out and checked the weather in effect then.
KO: No, that was all we were supposed to be doing,
DK: Yeah.
KO: But fortunately the fog came down and we were, the thing was called off. It was never reinstated again but I think that somebody up a loft had said, well, this is a bloody silly idea in the first place.
DK: That, was that with 1409 Met Flight?
KO: Oh, that was where I was sent for those two-week crash course.
DK: Right, ok. Ok, so you’ve done the training at 1409 Met course.
KO: What there was there of it.
DK: Yeah. So, you, did you get?
KO: I was
DK: Did you get back to Manston then or?
KO: Oh yeah, yes, well we uhm, I think we came in that night, I think we came into, probably into Woodbridge.
DK: Alright. Cause there’s one here you’ve been here the 12th of October ’44, it says from Manston, yeah. You went to Manston the day before. So that idea of going out early and
KO: Cause we used the wing tanks up, you see, we needed all the petrol that we could carry to get there and back so we’d use the wing tanks up going down to Manston until we had to refuel then and while that was being done, we were a little bit early, the fog came down and the whole thing was scrubbed.
DK: Alright. That’s what it’s saying here that you remained at Manston. Yeah. So, just going on here then, 16th of March ’45, Wurzburg, ops to Wurzburg.
KO: Wurzburg.
DK: Yeah, so you’re marker two. So, one thousand [unclear] red target indicator, one one thousand yellow target indicators,
KO: That’s what we carried.
DK: Right. But we carried a red, yellow and a green, as the Germans had a funny act of if the red ones went down they’d light another red one up somewhere away from it, you see, to distract it, so we’d have to go back in again and drop the green beside the red or whatever and
DK: Is this when you’ve got the master bomber’s there then that were telling
KO: Yeah, the master bomber’s up there.
DK: Yeah. So he’s then telling who, the rest of the main force who, which coloured markers to bomb. Has he mentioned you on the same operation that Gibson was lost on
KO: Yeah, yes.
DK: You didn’t know him cause he flew a 627 Mosquito force [unclear], didn’t he?
KO: Yes, yes.
DK: You didn’t meet him there then?
KO: I’ve met him on several occasions but, you know, not sort of personally, we were, [unclear] had social occasion or on one occasion he tried to, he came into our little bar, as you can imagine, we were in Nissen huts and they were all posh in and they came down to our officer’s mess and we, that was an airman’s hut actually, the whole mess, and the kitchen that was all part of it but we had no bar arrangements or that, so we had a builder of one of the boys in the squadron, so he built the bar and built a fire in there for us so we could have an officer’s drinking area. And one night my pilot and three Australians were in there having a drink and the door opened and Gibson appears and nobody sort of moved and he came, don’t you normally stand to attention and when a senior officer comes in? And they looked at each other, said, no, no, no. So, anyway, he created such a fuss, they grabbed hold of him, took him outside, took his trousers off and told him not to come in again. The next morning, there was an officer’s parade which he officiated, went down the line and of course the Australians all six foot something in their dark uniforms and my pilot who was a real dural Scotsman,
DK: This was Walker, was it?
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah.
KO: He was standing at the end of the line and he got him and he put him in the glasshouse for three weeks. So, he didn’t remain very popular with our crowd.
DK: Alright.
KO: So I was flying odd bits with anybody who was needing it, the navigator, flew all that three weeks when he was
DK: Well that, I mean, that meant you had another pilot you had to fly with then that. So you, you weren’t too pleased about that then?
KO: Well, we didn’t [unclear]
DK: Alright, ok. They were just
KO: I might have gone on a night flying test.
DK: Alright, so you didn’t do any operations while he was in [unclear]
KO: No, I mean, I had a very, very nice round of it really, I mean, some of the ops we did, we, yeah, you had to have your head on and I was, I was considered to be one of the better navigators although it didn’t sound like it. You know, you don’t know the circumstances of how things go.
DK: So, what was it like then if you were, you know, you are flying the Mosquito there, you’re over enemy territory, what does it feel like, it’s very dark and you’re being shot at?
KO: Well, we weren’t being shot at, that was just the point you see. Everybody else, the main force went out on allocated circuit. We went out, there was only five of us, we went out and more or less did it the way we thought we would, we didn’t stick to any plan as long as we were there sort of three minutes before the flares went down
DK: Right
KO: Thirteen minutes before the bombers came in. So rise up and up and when cross sort of thing on the machine I said right-oh, Jock, we’re here now and three minutes early, do a right one turn, wind off three minutes and that should bring us on time, that moment in time, the flares started to come down and we turned to going to find the thing and the number one saw it just as, we were just, there’s a story in my book there, he pressed the [unclear] just at the same time my pilot was just going to so we had to go off and go round again. And that happened several times and on one, where we had to bomb Wesel, because the commanders had taken over, they crossed the river there and they were outside of Wesel, we had to mark Wesel and we went, there was five of us, we went in and we had to put our markers on the, uhm, the, what’s, I don’t know what you call it, uhm, on the stone part of the pier sort of thing
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: On the river
DK: Yeah.
KO: And both our pilots [unclear] at the same time, both pressed the button, that cut out transmission then we couldn’t hear anything else. We went in, they went in, and we went in, dropped our markers at the same time and they landed in the same, virtually the same place at the same time so how far we were apart where we dived in there, we couldn’t have been more than twenty feet apart, never saw them and they didn’t see us.
DK: I’m just reading there from your logbook, so, that’s the 23rd of March ’45 and it’s ops to Wesel, army support. And you’ve marked with a thousand-pound red target indicator. So, you both dropped at exactly the same time.
KO: And exactly the same spot.
DK: Onto a pier.
KO: Yeah.
DK: On the river.
KO: Yeah. We didn’t realise what had happened until we got back.
DK: So then just going on here, I’m just reading this out for the recorder here, so, you then got the 10 of April ’45 ops the marshalling yard near Leipzig. So, backed up number two, thousand-pound red target indicator, carrying a thousand-pound yellow target indicator.
KO: Yes.
DK: So that probably would have been your last operation then, would it or?
KO: [unclear] read, read.
DK: Oh, ok.
KO: I know that [laughs] I found out that since that my sister married a family in Northampton, they’re apparently of Jewish extraction and they came down to the grandfather had had property in East Germany,
DK: Oh, right.
KO: And nobody knew where it was or anything and it wasn’t until after the war that they set the wheels rolling and apparently there’s two blocks of very luxury apartments and we’d blown one block up and so they only got reparations for the one, who’d been getting the rent for the other one [unclear] up until that time nobody came to the fore.
DK: Oh, hang on, there’s another op here, so, uhm, so Norway, so 25th of April ’45 Tonsberg, Norway.
KO: Yes, that’s the last one I did.
DK: That’s the last one, yes, so [unclear]. So at that point the war’s ended, how did you feel then?
KO: Well, that was about the first or second op I did from commissioning.
DK: Right. So you were commissioned at this point. Yeah.
KO: But I didn’t, I didn’t bother, we didn’t know what was going to happen to us though, where we were going to go, and what happened, what happened then lot of the Ozzies were sent home and we brought in some new people because there was the Far East war and we were going to take part in that and so we were going out there to mark for 5 Group, was only 5 Group that was going out there and we were the Pathfinder Force for 5 Group but we weren’t going to do our dive bomb marking there, somebody got the bright idea of using H2S and we would fly over the target two thousand feet straight and level for two minutes and drop our markers out. You know, that was a ridiculous idea, we wouldn’t even know where the bloody markers had gone and we would’ve much rather continue what we were doing previously and knowing where it was but.
DK: This would’ve been part of Tiger Force then.
KO: Yes, this was Tiger Force and we were supposed to be leading it.
DK: So, the atomic bomb’s dropped then, how did you feel that you weren’t now having to go out to the Far East?
KO: I was a bit disappointed in some respect because I rather looked forward to the exploratory flight out there really but on the other hand, see, there was a five hundred miles from Okinawa to the landfall in Japan,
DK: Yeah.
KO: And we didn’t have that great deal of overlap of petrol to do that, so we were waiting for Mark 40 Mosquitoes to come, which were pressurized and we were flying at forty thousand feet out, taking the trade wind to blow us there, then we go down and do our marking role for drop our markers whatever to do there and then we were gonna come back at sea level because the trade wind would,
DK: Yeah, yeah.
KO: Well that was what the theory was anyway, that would blow us back, blow us there and blow us back. Which we weren’t particularly thrilled with the idea.
DK: Oh, I can imagine.
KO: As you can imagine, sort of being dropped in the sea in the middle of the Pacific there.
DK: [unclear] Get blown back [laughs].
KO: [laughs] No, some people spark ideas, I don’t know.
DK: So the war’s ended then, what were you
KO: Yeah.
DK: You carried on [unclear]
KO: What happened then was, I was supposed to be leaving the [unclear] and they started sending the Ozzies back then because the war was,
DK: Yeah.
KO: Virtually finished then and they started importing a few other crews to come in, to go on the Okinawa job and [unclear] I was gonna say now, I lost the thread or something.
DK: So, the war’s ended, you’re [unclear] not going.
KO: Yes, so a lot of the new boys that they’d brought in were dispersed amongst other stations and so forth and we were just left to [unclear] we were the only crews that were taken out of the squadron and sent firstly to Feltwell and then, I can never remember the other airfield and then ended up at Marham,
DK: Right.
KO: On a bombing development unit. Now we were supposed to think up different ways of attack for future things, well, that was a waste of time really but that was all we were doing. All the rest of the them, down the squadron as it was left, cause they’d imported a lot of aircrew, and sent the Ozzies back, and they were sent to uhm, 19th Squadron, something like that,
DK: Right.
KO: And within months it was, they were all released from it.
DK: And what happened to yourself, then you, did you leave the RAF at that point?
KO: I was still on bombing development unit.
DK: Right.
KO: We just, from there we just five crews of us there.
DK: Yeah.
KO: And I stayed on till June and I was then pat to hand in me notice so to speak.
DK: So that would have been June 1946.
KO: Yeah.
DK: Yeah, yeah, you’re at Marham. So, you’ve left the Air Force in ’46 then. Yeah. So, what did you after that then?
KO: Well, it’s a bit of a long story really, I wanted to, I wanted to get engaged to one of the WAAFs in the squadron who was a parachute packer.
DK: Right.
KO: And I wanted to get engaged, this was at Christmas time, and I went home that weekend, took a photograph and my father said, no, you’re not marrying that girl. So, I sort of, I [unclear] a little bit, he said, no, you’re not going to marry that girl, if you do, he said, we shall sell the business up, we shall go back to America cause my parents were American born.
DK: Alright, ok.
KO: So, I said very briefly, well, that’s what you want to do, that’s what you left to do. Anyhow, they didn’t go back, the father bought a bungalow outside the town and I left myself thinking that this was the route I was going to take, that he changed his mind about being awkward and he bought two limited companies in Northampton and when I came out to take on the businesses which was a great help to me because I only had one other option which was to stay in the Air Force.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But that wasn’t very good because they really didn’t want anybody else in the, in there but that’s. So where I went and I was in Northampton then for five or six years working on the family business and then we divided up from there into the different companies and so forth.
DK: [unclear] The family business actually involve?
KO: A restaurant and bakeries.
DK: Oh, alright, ok. So, so looking back now, after all these years, several years, how do you feel about your time in the Air Force?
KO: I mean, for good or bad?
DK: Both [laughs]
KO: I thoroughly enjoyed it.
DK: Alright.
KO: No, it was a great experience, I learned a lot really from it, you know, and I wouldn’t have missed a day of my experiences there I mean [unclear] fly in the Air Force, when I came home and joined the local flying club and I was flying several hundred hours [unclear].
DK: So you did eventually get your private pilot’s license, then.
KO: I got my private pilot license, yes.
DK: Yeah. And, one other question I’ve got, did you know anything about the controversy of 627 Squadron moving from Bennett’s 8 Group to
KO: Oh, it was a bit of an argy bargy about that.
DK: Yeah.
KO: But, no, that’s what, what came away and that’s what we accepted.
DK: So, when you initially joined 627, you were part of 8 Group, were you, under Bennett.
KO: Yes. And 6
DK: And then moved to 5 Group under Cochrane.
KO: Yes. And 617 Squadron were on the same station with us.
DK: Right.
KO: So, it was quite a nice association really.
DK: Yeah. And you got on well with 617 Squadron.
KO: Oh yes.
DK: Yeah, yeah.
KO: Was a really good arrangement really.
DK: So, that controversy then, you just accepted you were going to another group.
KO: Well, that was all you could do really.
DK: Yeah.
KO: Hadn’t got a great deal of option [laughs].
DK: Ok. Well, absolutely marvelous.
KO: I’m sorry I’ve been so
DJK: You’ve been absolutely wonderful, brilliant, don’t worry, it’s useful having the logbook here cause we’ve gone through the various
KO: My memory seems to be worse at times than others and
DK: You’ve been absolutely marvelous, no, it’s been good
KO: Good. It’s been absolute rubbish from my point of view.
DK: That’s been good. Right, I’ll turn that off now.
KO: Ok.
DK: Ok, thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Interview with Ken Oatley
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-03-21
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AOatleyK170321, POatleyK1701
Format
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01:03:33 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
Initially too young to enlist at the outbreak of war, Ken Oatley served in the Home Guard until he was able to enlist in October 1940, when after initial training he undertook pilot training. After basic flying training he went onto Canada training on Oxfords. It was whilst there Donald Bennett was forming the Pathfinder Force. Five pilot trainees were taken from each course to retrain as navigators and Ken was selected for transfer. Eventually posted to 627 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa on Mosquito aircraft, Ken flew a total of 22 operations. He describes how 627 Squadron operated within Bomber Command operations, explaining how their role was to arrive and illuminate the designated targets for the following bombers. This included the operation on Dresden in February 1945. At the end of the war, Ken served with the Bomb Development Unit at RAF Marham, before being demobbed in 1946.
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1940-10
1945-02
1946
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
Germany
Germany--Dresden
England--Lincolnshire
Conforms To
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Pending revision of OH transcription
106 Squadron
16 OTU
1660 HCU
617 Squadron
627 Squadron
aircrew
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
civil defence
Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
Pathfinders
RAF Manston
RAF Marham
RAF Metheringham
RAF Scampton
RAF Sealand
RAF Swinderby
RAF Syerston
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Woodhall Spa
Stirling
target indicator
Tiger force
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1037/11409/AMorrisM150720.2.mp3
042adcb94e32f04a3e4e4706c07f4b52
Dublin Core
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Title
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Morris, Malcolm Francis
M F Morris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Malcom Morris (b. 1940, 1931621 Royal Air Force). He served as ground personnel post war as an armourer at RAF Waterbeach and then in Aden.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-20
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Morris, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SB: This is Sheila Bibb interviewing Malcolm Morris at Cliffe in Kent on the 20th of July, I think it’s the 20th and I’m going to ask a few basic questions and then we will get into a little bit more detail. So, Mal, can you just start off by telling me a little bit about yourself, where you were born, your family, anything like that.
MM: I was born, as I say, in Herefordshire, in a place called Lower Bearwood near the village of Pembridge. My, I was a single child and an actual fact, I was rather late one cause my mother was forty when I was born and I was an only child at the beginning of the war 26th of July 1940. We were basically in a farming area although my father worked for the Herefordshire County Council driving rollers, road rollers, he was actually, he was called up during the first world war and went to the King’s Shropshire Light Infantry but never went to the trenches which is probably why I’m here basically and in the Second World War of course he was too old for start and also it was a reserved occupation mending the roads. He could’ve had a farm, his father’s farm but he didn’t want it so that went from, it was not a big place, just a small [unclear] so that went away from us as such. I attended school at the local church school followed by the secondary school cause I failed the eleven plus miserably so basically as I say, I was secondary school failed. The sergeant prompted me to apply to join up, and I found I could apply as a boy entrant at fifteen just as I left school, which I did, I went to RAF Cosford for the inauguration to see if I was fit, if you might say, which was quite an easy day as far as I was concerned, I was surprised I passed it, basically it was put square rolls in round pegs and things like that and I was told, yes you can join up and go down where you want, go down to St Athans in a month or so’s time, which is what happened. I spent eighteen months at St Athans being trained as an armament mechanic then, up to senior aircraftsman standard, which I passed out as but being still young I stayed as a boy entrant so for my first couple of years in the real Royal Air Force mostly at Waterbeach I was a boy entrant until I managed, to get all my [unclear] was coming through when I was seventeen and a half so then I got luckily, fairly lucky, I got on a fitter’s course fairly quickly and also what they call a conversion course cause first off they trained us as armourers fitters guns just that side of it but then they wanted it, when they lost the other trades, things like turrets and one or two other small arms parts of the armament, it did all come into one and I did a conversion course to become a junior technician and then they posted me out to that lovely place called Aden and I thought I would be going to Khormaksar working on everything under the sun when I got there they said, get on that coach, you’re going to Steamer Point, where is that? It’s down in the harbour but it was a much better place than Khormaksar and easy, it was an MU and I actually worked on a large bomb dump, I’m talking both air force, navy and army material which mostly we were looking after destroying at times. Basic throwing everything we didn’t want in the sea because at the same time at Khormaksar 8th Squadron converted from Vampires with 20mm guns to Hunters with 30mm guns and we had lots and lots of ammunition and I’m talking thousands of rounds. I threw, threw most of it into the sea and then they found out I’d thrown one lot I shouldn’t have thrown away [laughs]. But it was one of those things that happen. I did two years in Aden getting the general service medal for Arabian Peninsula although basically I hardly had a shot fired [unclear] or twice but not much. I returned to England and went to eventually RAF Northorpe at Coastal Command headquarters just looking after the small arms weapons, there was about fifty of them we were told there was two of us to do it, it was basically boring and I couldn’t get on, I couldn’t pass me corporal tech at the time so the flight sergeant said to me, how would you fancy a post in some [unclear] flight sergeant down there another junior tech who wanted to come to Northwood so we exchanged posts and I went to St Mawgan and I ended up on 206 Squadron for the best part of six years. Funny thing was that when I got to St Mawgan I met another lad in the armament trade and his [unclear] was up in Dartford in Kent so and I had a car, so he cottoned on to me and I used to drive him off to Kent where I met his sister. She is now my wife and has been for fifty odd years. Unbelievable really because I from London to St Mawgan and then suddenly going to court a girl up in Dartford in Kent, it was unbelievable, anyway that happened. We went up to Kent last eventually when the squadrons moved up to Kinloss to chase the Russian submarines round the North Sea, it was a bit closer than St Mawgan. Basically I loved it on 206 when they said to me one day the squadron leader engineer said, Corporal Morris, we are going to send you on a torpedo course. I said, I don’t want to go on a torpedo course, I’m happy in the squadron, I want to stay here. Oh, he said, you got to go, it’s a good idea for your career. I never really believed it, anyway I went. I got to RAF Newton on a pre-course, electrical course, and met the other half dozen armourers there and they said, oh, you are Corporal Morris, are you? Yeah, why? He said, well, you are going to Changi with us. Hello, nobody told me that! So I decided I’d pass the course, which I did and eventually got posted to Changi as it happened, my wife obviously came with me etcetera and by the time she was pregnant with our first eldest son which she produced in RAF Changi hospital and eventually the second one before we left the tour as was well at RAF Changi hospital, so both of our sons were born at RAF Changi. I served in the torpedo section which was basically air-conditioned and very, very nice and clean and after we’d been there about six months the group that I was with [unclear] at that time we just about looked at every torpedo and cleaned them up and repainted them so everything was alright after that, nothing hardly to do really and I got posted back to England and the funny thing then was when my post had come through it said 26 Squadron and I looked at the other blokes, by which time I was a sergeant by the way, I looked at the other blokes and said, 26 Squadron? That’s a Squadron in Germany, you don’t go from Singapore to Germany. They said, read the rest of the title, brackets, Royal Air Force regiment. Damn it, I don’t want to go to the regiment, anyway I’ve got no choice, come back and got posted to RAF Bicester with 26 Squadron on the regiment as a sergeant armourer on Bolfords guns, the latest version of what of course they had in the war the early versions, ours were, they could be electronically controlled but we didn’t have the radar to do it. If they wanted the radar, they had to borrow it, basically ask the army if they could use theirs [laughs]. Anyway that lasted for about a year when the regiment squadron was posted to Gutersloh and as it happened I didn’t realise that but I was still immune to be posted overseas unless I asked nicely. So the adjutant called myself as a sergeant armourer and a corporal radio lad on a Friday afternoon and he said, we think you are doing well because up till then I’d been the back end of the air force as far as it goes. We’d like you so much, would you like to come to Germany with us? You can go and ask your wives you’re both married, go and ask your wives whether they want to go to Germany and I looked at this corporal and he looked at me and we looked back at the adjutant and together we said, no thank you sir. So we got posted out and I got posted to Honington when I’d become part of what was by that time Strike Command on the Buccaneers early, the early squadron, 12 squadron Buccaneers, mostly the Mark IIs. I served in most of the sections and squadrons, on that squadron at Honington, I didn’t go on a nuclear weapons site although I loaded the nuclear weapons etcetera onto the Buccaneers because we were in those days fighting the Cold War etcetera, which was quite a good thing in the end but I found, by this time I managed to get up to chief technician which was the maximum rank I got and I was put in charge of the carrier bay but ended up doing just about everything else, loading Martels, specialist Martel man, the ejection seats of course, nuclear weapons, standard bombs. If the squadron couldn’t do it which at the time they were still in the bases of [unclear] and I ended up doing it with my lads which annoyed me cause my workers backing up on the section. So anyway that happened and I went on and from there the next posting came through and again a funny one, 112 Squadron in Cyprus, what’s that? Luckily one of my junior techs had been posted out to 112 so I did know that it was Mark II Bloodhounds, surface to air missiles. So I already had a contact on the squadron which was Andy so myself and my family went out in June ’74 and if you know the history of there, the Turks walked in in July and basically buggered up everything. We were not allowed to fight them, I think it was Callaghan was the foreign secretary then and he wouldn’t allow us to fight them. Mind you we hadn’t got a lot to fight with, I think we had a regiment squadron in Akrotiri, the royal Scots up at Episkopi where I was actually based and a couple of tank companies over at the other side, the eastern SBA as it was called, we were the western, which is the Sovereign Base Area, but our radar told me, by the radar lads of course that they could watch the Turkish F100s lifting off Turkey and lock onto them and could shoot them down quite happily except they weren’t allowed to. And luckily they didn’t come and bomb us although they went over the SBA a couple of times but they didn’t drop anything and the silly thing of the air force people [unclear] they put 56 Squadron Lightnings up with the F100s to escort them across, our missiles didn’t know the difference so we couldn’t fire anyway so we were immune from, we didn’t fire at all. Things quietened down, unfortunately the families were sent home because of the problems, had to be sent back to England which didn’t help very much cause my wife by that time had three children, we had three children, two boys and a girl, which is all we we got now and she eventually ended up at the place where they make air publications and I can’t think of name off the top of me head and she was there for about six months and then the powers at bay said to 112 Squadron, so good we gotta keep you on, so your family has gotta come back whereas some went home and I was considered an essential personnel by that time [laughs] but unfortunately although I was a chief tech to get a married quarter, which you couldn’t live out by that time, you had to live on married, on the site or on the camp, they said, oh no, we are going to change the system, the people who has got the least time to do are getting the married quarters first, so basically an SAC had no points with just a wife could get a married quarter was with three children and they were still in England, took about six months, not a happy time. Eventually she came back and we got a married quarter of course in Episkopi which went on alright, was gonna be nice, the Turks had quietened down, they had got the bit in the north in Cyprus that they wanted and then someone else come along and said, oh, we’ve decided to disband the squadrons in Cyprus, that was 112, 56 and the, I think it was two Falcon squadrons they put on at Akrotiri at that time. Thank you very much, when are we going home? As it happened obviously a senior NCO in the sergeant’s mess, I was a partner of the warrant officer who posted armourers around the Mediterranean, Gibraltar, Malta, I think [unclear] had finished by that time and of course Cyprus so he said to me, he said, hey Mal, you’re a chief tech with a qualification for torpedo, I said, yes, he said, how do you fancy going to Malta to finish your tour? And I said yes please and as it happened he was going there as well as the engineering warrant officer [laughs] so we went over to Malta with the family of course which was, I thought was quite nice but my wife wasn’t very keen on Malta, I don’t really know why, we lived out in Malta so she got on alright with the local people. As it happened the lady above her was Maltese although married to an RAF serviceman of course. So she got on quite well but she didn’t like it very much. And of course that time which is ’77-’78 Malta was closing down because of the president his name [unclear] he was checking us out basically because the Libyans were giving him all the money. So we started to pack up and my wife said let’s gonna go home so basically I sent her home. She went home and she went home to her mother at the time but I was now sort of [unclear] to requirements so they just said, well, we don’t want you here anymore you might as well go as well, so it only lasted about a month and I got back home and I was then posted to Marham again the specialist qualification came up, the Martel section. I didn’t like it. Anyway we got a quarter at Marham, settled down there basically with the children [unclear] school etcetera and because I was coming towards the end of my twenty two year contract time by that time I had put in for the last postance, it was overseas Cottesmore, oh, and Wittering but I got Marham so I wasn’t too bothered, alright, anyway went to the officer in the charge, but didn’t get on with very well, but that’s another story, I said, oh, we are going to post you to Coltishall, where do you want to go? I said, I don’t want to go now, oh, he said, you got no choice, you gotta go, it’s your last tour post and you’ve only got a year eighteen months to do. So, I went over to Coltishall which turned out to be quite well actually, by this time of course the family was still in Marham, I was at Coltishall but I got a quarter at Coltishall fairly quickly because the problems with Cyprus and being on a [unclear] I got more points than normal so I was quite high on the points list by that time, so of course my wife come over to with the children to Coltishall so we lasted the last twelve months, eighteen months, I was basically 6 Squadron chief tech in charge of the bomb dump being the Jaguars they were back up for Germany if the balloon went up, if the Cold War become hotted up we were supposed to go over the Jaguars and land on the motorway [unclear] but we never did and basically was exercises to go over to Germany or Netherlands or wherever they decided to go. I think I was out on the forth [unclear] Hercules with about a half a dozen blokes and fourteen cluster bomb out on the bomb dump to look after, so that happened once or twice, which was, my daughter was about eight by that time, the trouble was they used to put the siren out when the exercise started and daddy disappeared to camp on work or come back with this gun, his [unclear] disruptive combat so [unclear] all the rest of it and she was in tears basically and eventually a day or two later once we’ve loaded the Hercules etcetera away I flew for a fortnight or so or used to be ten days on exercise, so my daughter hates this siren and I’ve got one on the car and I’ll bring it up now and again and forty years old she still hates the siren. So basically I was at Coltishall coming up to the end of my time, I applied to sign onto 55 but by that time the Air Force was starting to shrink and they didn’t want chief, high chief techs they wanted Indians so they didn’t allow me to sign on, they did offer me forty seven but I always thought, seven years and I give the government two thousand pounds a year cause I get a pension that way and I know I said I went out instead. What didn’t help and I don’t want it necessarily said was actually the [unclear] group captain on one because he did something wrong in admin put all I didn’t get nothing out of it some poor corporal in the general office that I didn’t even know got a reprimand for giving the wrong information so I left the Air Force out of a bit of a cloud, it was the time I went and the other thing that decided the two us myself and wife the school, local school send [unclear] things in how many places your children [unclear] six months well we used those up and turned the page over and put another half dozen on the back because we are going in and out of Cyprus etcetera, so basically I left the Air Force in 1980 with myself, my wife and the three children and I got the job as a refrigeration engineer. I couldn’t spell it when I left the Air Force, a month later I was one for a firm called Hobart engineering in the Ipswich area and basically I was the Kent engineer for Hobart’s [unclear] travelled for twelve years till they made me redundant. So I was quite happy [unclear] and that’s about my lifetime.
SB: Ok, so that’s given me some food for thought.
MM: It did [laughs]
SB: [laughs] So I think if we go back now to when you first joined up and you are fifteen so that’s 1955, war has been over for ten years but we’ve still got an awful lot of things going on how did that influence your decision, do you think?
SB: Not at all. I would say not at all because as I said earlier I did want to join the air force but didn’t think I would be qualified to any extent and when I was offered the boy entrant I just jumped at it, to be quite honest. Again, the headmaster of the school who, hang on, he did cane me now and again, gave me quite a good recommendation although I was considered the best athlete at the time and I’ve gone downhill since then but I was considered the best athlete at the time in the school. So I had quite a good recommendation from the headmaster which must have influenced a little but I was right at the back end of the boy entrant entry, I think with my entry I was within about the last twenty numbers.
SB: Ok, so, the war itself didn’t seem to influence you. How did you feel about the possibility of maybe getting into another war and having to?
MM: Never really gave it a thought and it was the case or you buy it, obey the orders anyway and get on with it, which is what happened with the odd places I was, with the small wars like Aden, Cyprus, I never really got influenced in Northern Ireland, I nearly did because 26 Squadron the regiment were going to be sent to Northern Ireland but this is when they went to Gutersloh instead so, phew, I didn’t get to Northern Ireland because it was still active in those days and of course the Buccaneers were back up for lots of places which could have had wars, we used to go to Norway and even took them to Singapore for a month. After, that was after the Air Forces had left of course so the Buccaneers would have been in the war if it was going to be but we never really thought about it, to be quite honest. If it happens, it happens.
SB: Let’s talk a little bit about the planes that you done, mentioned Buccaneers, you also mentioned Shackletons. Can you tell me a little bit about what you liked, didn’t like about the varying planes?
MM: Well, if you know the Shackleton, which is my longest Squadron really, I was actually on the squadron, I was actually working on the Mark IIIs, which is the one with the tricycle undercarriage as opposed to the tail draggers, the two’s and the one’s, the two’s and the one’s were still bombing up wise, were still operating as the Lancasters did in the war with the winch, that you literally had to winch up the bombs which was hard work but the Mark III they had based that similar to the Vulcan where we had hydraulic jacks to lift the large frame which had the torpedoes on them so basically the Mark III Shackleton was, as far as I was concerned, was excellent. Ah, we did a thing called the search and rescue standby for a week, we had a Shackleton on one hour standby to take off for a search and rescue anywhere over the Atlantic or wherever basically required and if the first Shackleton went, the squadron had another Shackleton virtually ready at the same time but not quite ready, they had to call people in, especially at Kinloss because I was by that time I suppose the senior corporal, because there was only a corporal armourer and a sergeant armourer went off from St Mawgan to Kinloss, so I was considered the senior corporal for that sort of thing and for an S&R, search and rescue load of, what we had on them? We had the SAR staff sonobuoys and flares but they were all on the beams, there were only four beams that we put on and but they were all already on the trolleys set up on the beams so it only had to be pulled out to the aircraft, fix up the hydraulic jacks two of them, do one at a time and up they went. In fact I could actually, actually I haven’t and I have done, I could load the Shackleton for that in twenty minutes flat as long as I had a couple of blokes to obey and they knew what they were doing, if it was armourer’s great but otherwise it could be anyone else that actually knew because we helped each other on the Shackleton’s. So many a time at Kinloss I’ve be in bed and a quarter across the road from the main gate but there’d be a knock on the door and I’d stick me head out of the window it’s marvellous SAR’s been called out, we need the next load, oh damn, out of bed, get dressed, on me bike, cross I went, loaded the Shackleton up because there was other ground crew there to look after the Shackleton as such, they just needed a specialist armourer there, in about within two hours I was back on bed [laughs] and often the second one didn’t take off so cause I had to get up again [laughs]. That was the Shackletons of course they went round the world, I luckily got a trip to Singapore with them although that was into the Borneo confrontation and of course we never saw anything really of that, we were just looking for the gun runners basically on the South China Sea. As I said, on the Shackleton, if they went on a training trip to fire the guns, they’d take up one of the armourers missile from one of the others whatever to clear the stockages that invariably happened [laughs] and they gave us a go, so that’s how I come to fire guns out of a Shackleton which was a bit unusual for a ground training, I did hit me target, mind you it was the South China Sea at the time [laughs], my sergeant it seemed when he went up, he actually hit the smokefloat that they dropped down, canister about like two [unclear] so he actually had that they say, well none of the aircrew never got near they just got the South China Sea like me, which was I suppose handy because I’d been, it was Changi that we went on a detachment and of course later I was posted to Changi as a torpedo specialist so I knew the area but nothing great about it. Mostly then I also had Buccaneers later which were of course the nuclear Buccaneer, they carried two nuclear weapons, six hundred pound 177, nuclear weapon, the English-made version by the way, because I did actually put nuclear weapons on Shackletons which a lot people don’t realise they did, but we had to borrow them off the Yanks, the Yanks had a bomb, a special weapons bomb dump at St Mawgan and Machrihanish for this but we just had to ask them, we’d like to put two on our aircraft in a month’s time. So, sign here, a sort of thing. Which was one of the funny things there, I happened to be on tour six that we were doing the test in the early days, this must have been about 64, 63, 64, we were designated to do the test with the Yanks to see that ours went up and whatever, very little we did, it was just the case of doing the checks on the switches and things, I did the switches and the chief read the book, and I turned one switch the wrong way and the Yank said, stop, stop, that’s it, start again, so half an hour back again, I’m starting the book again and then one day we’ve been putting these on and off for a month or two, not too regular, they’d all come out painted I can’t remember now maybe blue or green and then one come out a different colour, one colour or another so we got them on the aircraft flew away for an hour or so, just to do whatever they had to do, and while we were there the Yank obviously stayed with us in the crew room, who was looking after the weapon, we said, hey, why is that a different colour? He said, man, that’s the real one! [laughs] Oh, and we got taken off [laughs], we’ll do this gently [laughs] took it off and waved goodbye to it. And until I went on the Buccaneers I never saw another live one, I did see live ones on the Buccaneer, but not often and actual fact the Buccaneers as to my knowledge, in the squadron anyway, they didn’t take off with a weapon on board, they may have channelled down the runway a little bit but they just come back and we took them off. They must well have been flown sometime because the navy had them as well on their Buccaneers but as far as I know we never flew one off on Honington in the time I was there it had actually flew off or if it did it was only a training weapon, but by the time I put mine on and gone back for a cup of tea I didn’t care where the aircraft went, I just had to wait till it come back again. So that was the Buccaneers mostly. It’s interesting time on the Buccaneers cause I became a specialist, took the course on the Martel guided weapon, was a TV guided or a radar guided Martel, two versions, which is why I ended up at Marham on the Martel section and I also got a Martin Baker course for a week on the ejection seats, they were just starting to fit rocket seats, the Harrier which needed a big rocket seat cause that could be going down when it’s crashed, as opposed to be flying along, so they had to have a good boost up to get into the air at what they called 0 0 feet, they could actually pull, no that they wanted to but they could pull the ejection seat handle and when they were sitting on the ground doing nothing and they’d still come down [unclear] I don’t think they ever tested it as such and I went to Martin Baker it was really nice, couple of pints at dinnertime and a meal and all sorts and for a week was really nice, we actually met in passing the man called Benny Lynch who in the back, just after the war, back end of the war, he was one of the first ones that ejected out of a Meteor in test and done more ejections than anyone else. I think by that time he had broken just about every body in, bone in his body and basically he was, basically just about at it but he was still kept on by as an idol of Martin Baker. That was the Buccaneers so and the only other aircraft I didn’t work on a lot but just out bomb up now and again was the Jaguar, as I said, I was mostly in charge of their bomb dump so if they went on detachment I was in charge of all the bombs and got them set up and put on the carrier or whatever required and the armourers on the squadron actually did the loading as such although they used to call me in now and again if they had a problem, mostly it was a problem I had caused or my lads had because they hadn’t quite done the right thing with whatever the fusing etcetera had to be done, so there was a few problems now and again. And that’s about my main time with the aircraft.
SB: Ok. Are there any particular stories that come to mind from your time, you’ve mentioned being able to fire into the South China Sea and so on, you have already mentioned a few things but are there any other incidents at all that you’d like to share?
MM: The one that amuses me a lot, on 26 squadron of the regiment they had thirteen Bulfords guns, twelve of them were obviously on the [unclear], four on each, three four is twelve, yes, but my gun was the thirteenth. But when I went to the regiment and the lads showed me everything and said, where’s this [unclear] on my infantry, he said, oh, they’re in, it’s in that building over there in the, we were working out of an old MT, one of the old MT buildings over there, but he said, well, we don’t know, we’ve taken bits off it like it’s what the Air Force called a Christmas tree, I if we wanted a part, we took it off there before they sent us a bit and after the time we didn’t bother to put it back on the other gun, cause we probably used it on something else eventually, so eventually it came around that we were going to take the squadron was going down to Manorbier to fire the guns and of course they wanted to fire all of the guns cause they were talking of going to Germany and we had to test the barrels and all sorts of things, so I said to the lads, I said, we are gonna have to get this gun out. And they said, well, we will have to be a bit careful the ones that have been there so we went up, opened up, started to push this gun out and I don’t know if you know but the wheels of the gun are locked down [unclear] when it’s being dragged along the ground, but when the gun is going to fire they take them up and it sits on feet, unfortunately this thing fell on the ground, luckily none of the lads got injured so anyway this gun [unclear], so I told their officers in charge etcetera, this gun [unclear] it and they said oh well, went through the system and they said, send it back to Stafford, so we [unclear] rigged it so as the wheel stayed up coming down and it disappeared behind the truck and a new gun, a gun from Stafford that was being refurbished come back to us, all nice painted etcetera etcetera, ok, alright so we dragged, in fact I went on the truck, dragged my gun down to Manorbier and the regiment obviously set their guns out cause they could set all twelve onto the firing range and carried on for half a week and then they said, right, now we’ll try your gun, I said, alright, we are going to fire this, he said, no, you can’t fire it, well, I got six armourers, ah, they said, but you’ve been trained how to load it [laughs], we were servicing the bloody thing but we weren’t being trained cause they put them in from the side and all sorts so, anyway one of the sergeants in the [unclear] took my gun, put it up on the range, started off red, he had tips of five rounds, very like a 303 but bigger and they started firing it, fired about two or three rounds, bang, bang, bang, now stopped, oh shit, called us out, and what they do? Don’t know, got jammed with a mechanism going back before you can’t move it cause it’s too big but two Welshmen that had done this for years, they had a trolley about the size of that table and a big piece of lead basically that you can hardly lift up on a chain but these done it so many times they, oh, we got another jammed gun, it was pointed in safe direction by the way [laughs], and they come up and one of them lifted this and swung it round and hit it in the right place and the gun went and fired, bang, stand a couple of times, we got a bit fed up with this, one of my corporals a very nice, very good lad Scotsman, he what it was cause I hadn’t got a clue, I hadn’t been trained on the guns and this was just experience and he said, you couldn’t get ammunition was called forty seventy or forty sixty it was just slightly bigger, the one, the seventy is slightly bigger but what he reckoned Stafford had done he had bolted the slideway for the ammunition to go in, one side was forty and the other was sixty so basically it was [unclear], skewed as you went down, he sorted this out and changed the bolt etcetera etcetera by which time they finished firing so he never did find out if it fired that way, it went to Germany and I don’t know. But the other things as well that the lads said, they’d been there before to Manorbier of course they said Sarge, he said, it’s bloody horrible there, we give out all the ammunition that’s basically our job on the day unless the [unclear] stops. And come the evening we got all these empty cases back and we gotta, we box’em and put this free of explosives, he used to take us hours to, he said by the time we got back to the camp at Pembrey, starts with the P but Welsh area anyway is a small camp, army camp, small, all the food had gone more or less, I thought, what am I gonna do? Hang on, he says, that a senior NCO must certify free of explosives so he’s fired the gun and he’s got [unclear] he knows it’s free of explosives, each gun had a sergeant in charge of it, I thought, right, make out a list, you will put all the empty cases back in the boxes, seal them up, the lads were doing it of course. Not my lads but his lads, because they had time between the aircraft flying over and things like that to do this sort of thing and certify it and sign it, so all we had to do basically the armourers as such was travel down the back of the guns, at the ones they stopped firing and pick it all up on a three tonner, take it down to a building and stick it all in the building, the next day I had to certify that it was all empty and take it down to the trains at Pembroke Dock, put them on a train, seal that and send it back to Stafford or wherever it went, I don’t know, and this was right because the sergeants weren’t too keen on doing the job but my army officer, the warrant officer on the squadron so it was the case of the warrant officer says and they did it [laughs] and it worked beautifully. The lads, in fact my lads were just about the first ones back because the others, the regiment themselves had of course cleaned the gun and strip it down, [unclear] over for night time etcetera so our lads were just about the first ones back to the cook house so they thought that was great [laughs], so from the lad’s point of view I scored but from the regiment point of view I didn’t like it. I got to know how to do things cause being only a sergeant, the flight sergeants were in charge of the flights and if I wanted something done like their guns cleaned, I’m talking about their private work, I say private, their individual work which they were allocated of course, the SLR by that time, self-loading rifle, I had the armoury as well to look after, although I had a couple of lads doing that of course, every [unclear] they knocked down a barrel and if anything was dirty they said gun number 24 or whatever is dirty barrel, so I used to phone up the flight sergeant and say, so and so and so and so and so and so of your people have got dirty weapons, oh, I can’t be bothered by, warrant officer so and so says and five minutes later they were done, the armoury clean and their weapons [laughs] so it worked out alright but it took me six months to work all this lot out by which time I got the chance to leave and I did [laughs].
SB: Right, so, I think we’ve covered a fair amount of your time.
MM: Good! Crakey, yes!
SB: In there so unless there is anything else you can think that you’d like to add to it? I mean, maybe one question I can throw to you. You said the war, Second World War, didn’t influence your decision to go in but how did you feel about those people who had taken part in, in war, those people who did fly in Bomber Command, how did you feel about it?
MM: At the time I went in because there were still so many in the Air Force, for instance my old chief on 206 Squadron went through the war from an apprentice, he was I believe an apprentice at the beginning of the war and he went through the war and ended up as a warrant officer but only on a temporary rank. And I felt a bit for him because eventually he chased the Japanese back up through Burma and went into Japan with them and became forces of occupation, he was told us that as a warrant officer he sent him out with half a dozen blokes and a truck and get rid of all the Japanese war stores and the Japanese way of storing stuff is different to our way, I mean, we put ammunition in one place over there and furniture over there and food somewhere else and paperwork everywhere else, spread out all over the place, the Japanese didn’t do it that way, they put everything in smaller places, so the ammunition, food, weapons, vehicles, obviously the weapons and ammunitions was part of what the old warrant was telling me destroyed of course. But they had everything else, they had furniture, clothing, well, because, like a large barn basically they used to tell us [unclear] where it was sort of thing and the door was there, well, because of the war etcetera you were worried about booby-traps which is part of why he went of course and the armourers so they used to blow the doors open as opposed to try to open them with a pickaxe or whatever [laughs], they used to blow them open, the trouble, well good thing from this point, I can tell you now cause he’s dead but the good thing about that was when the bang went off, all the local people, we knew about these things, turned up and wanted half of what they could get so basically you sold it to them what he could but the ammunition of course or the weapons etcetera and he ended up quite a rich man basically, in Japanese money though, which was a bit hopeless. Cause he was also involved with the Shackletons earlier on in the nuclear weapons and I reckon that’s where he died of leukaemia but again shouldn’t say this I suppose but the government won’t recognize the blokes from that time and the same thing with the war, the government never recognised it till they put the memorial up in Green Park, which I went to in a couple of years ago, three years ago now, wasn’t it? Couldn’t really, Churchill was good, he was the man of the time, the man we needed, but basically I, I and others of the same thing, we blame Churchill for the devastation we caused in Germany which really didn’t need to happen, it’s the, it’s hindsight it’s easy, hindsight is the, I always say, hindsight is the biggest and best management thing in England, the only trouble is they haven’t got any foresight. And the same thing he didn’t recognise Bomber Command basically way after he was dead etcetera which I think was a, since knowing all about it, was really a thing we shouldn’t have done and we are still in the same thing now, we hardly recognise the people that come back from Afghanistan etcetera, we have trouble looking after them, we shouldn’t, the Armed Forces Covenant, which I try and [unclear] a little, and try and see about but it seems to be dead in the water to be quite honest, where they should look after everybody after they come back out of the forces not just Afghanistan but because when I left the Air Force and went to Dartford, cause my wife comes from Dartford, luckily we put our name down on the Dartford council list, they wouldn’t put my name down because I didn’t come from Dartford, my wife they could put down so we basically since we’ve been married best part of twenty years, we’d had our list down so we got a council house which was most unusual. Although of course we were at Coltishall and because I was going out and the Air Force basically sent me an eviction latest six months beforehand so I sent out to the local council Norfolk and they said, oh no, we are not interested in you, you didn’t come, you come from Herefordshire, you go back to Herefordshire basically. And then I read the small print and it said, if you have worked in the area for a year or eighteen months or so, you can qualify to go on the list and I looked at the wife and said, you work for Birdseye, in the local frozen fruit factory for the last couple of years? Yes, we’ll put your name down instead so we did and we got the letter back where you could see [unclear] put her on but we haven’t got a place for her. But luckily the Dartford council come up with a place. That’s the sort of bad things about the way the Air Force or the government run the Air Force, shall we say. And of course 12 Squadron lately, they were flying Tornadoes of course out of Lossiemouth and went to the various Iraq and Iran and things and then they were told, oh, well, that’s it, we’d had enough, we don’t want Tornadoes [unclear] or 12 Squadron disbanded so they disbanded 12 Squadron the only one left operational is 6 Squadron [unclear] I was on and all the rest have gone and they disbanded 12 Squadron and then they suddenly found out they hadn’t got enough Tornadoes to carry on, so 2 Squadron was disbanded as well, and instead of, they just added the flag over to 12 Squadron and gave them the aircraft and then went on of course to have the Typhoons so 12 Squadron are now back in operation with a first lady wing commander in charge of the squadron, I think she still is on in charge, got a backseat as opposed to a pilot as such although she’s done quite a few Afghan operations etcetera but as a backseater as I called it as opposed to a pilot. I think she’s still in charge. So that’s, the government can’t get it right, no matter what they try, talk to Cameron now and he’s trying to go and bomb’em and we don’t wanna know.
SB: Ok. Were there any other people you came across who had actually been part of Bomber Command?
MM: Well, my chief was, he was Bomber Command before he went overseas to Far East, he was in Bomber Command with the Lancasters quite a bit. And of course I met quite a few in the fifties, stroke early sixties but most of those were chief technicians or flight sergeants, warrant officers sort of thing so, basically down a corporal level, the only one I actually knew fairly well for a while was in the war was in Aden, he was an LAC there, Yorkie, yes, LAC, I don’t know he never wanted [unclear] but he actually helped arm up [unclear], Spitfire at Biggin Hill [unclear], I went through the war but as an LAC and he was talking now in his forties he was still an LAC, he just didn’t want to go any further so but he never really told us many stories of the war as such, that was one of the ones that as I say he was at Biggin Hill for a while and reckoned he helped arm up the Spitfire for, well, he’d be then I think Squadron or wing commander by that time, I think, got that a bit mixed up, have I? I don’t know.
SB: Ok, thanks very much Mal.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Malcolm Francis Morris
Creator
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Sheila Bibb
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMorrisM150720
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Pending review
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00:46:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Second generation
Description
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Malcolm Francis Morris, who was a child when war broke out, remembers joining the RAF as a boy entrant and then serving as an armament technician during the Cold War. Describes his training at St Athans and being then posted to Aden, where he was in charge of a bomb dump and occasionally disposed of the ammunition. Remembers various episodes: serving on 112 Squadron in Cyprus in 1974; being awarded the General Service Medal for the Arabian Peninsula; taking a specialist course on ejection seats and one on torpedoes; his posting back to England on various stations; handling different kinds of weapons. Talks about his experience with the Buccaneers and Shackletons and gives technical details about the nuclear armament of the aircraft. Expresses his critical views on Churchill regarding the destruction of the German cities during the war and the neglecting of veterans.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Cyprus
Germany
Great Britain
Singapore
Yemen (Republic)
South China Sea
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
bomb dump
ground personnel
perception of bombing war
RAF St Athan
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1031/11403/PMercerH1701.1.jpg
ca1e16ce2e7f535857111b45957c7c12
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1031/11403/AMercerH170519.2.mp3
550b969b4cd74761e6a94a8e44b23fde
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Mercer, Harold
H Mercer
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Sergeant Harold Mercer (1922 - 2020). He served as a driver before remustering as an air gunner. He flew operations as an air gunner with 77 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-05-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mercer, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Harold Mercer at his home on the 19th of May 2017. Get going. Alright, I’ll just make sure that’s working. So, just start, if I could just ask you, what were you doing immediately before the war?
HM: I was working for North Shields corporated society as a milk man, driving horse and cart round the streets, delivering milk
DK: So, what years would that be?
HM: That was 1942
DK: 1942. So, what made you then want to join the RAF? Was that your decision or?
HM: Well, it was, yes, it was my decision, I had volunteered at the beginning of the year 1942, and I have gone up to Edinburgh for an interview, I wanted to be in aircrew then but over to you I wasn’t contemplated for at the time and they sent me on the reserve list so I was called up in April 1942
DK: 1942, yeah
HM: On call up, I suppose you want me to continue,
DK: Yes, please, yeah
HM: On call up, I was posted to Weston-super-Mare for what was generally called square-bashing, so I did two months in Weston-super-Mare, while I was there, I did the usual things, marching up and down the promenade, learning how to the march, how to do the drills and everything
DK: How did you feel about all that, was that something you liked or?
HM: To be quite honest, I quite enjoyed it for one reason, I had a little corporal [unclear] who was determined to be a Sir, so I had to call him sir anyway, but being sort of raw recruits and not used to Air Force or Army life or anything really like that, we just generally called him Sir, behind his back I think he was called other things, but that was the Air Force lads, but we got on very well together, there was, the squadron was about thirty, I would imagine? I’ve got a photograph there actually, about thirty of us in a squad and while I was there, I did the usual square-bashing and the odd sentry duty and only one wood march I ever did anyway, the reason for that was I was a musician and I played the euphonium in a brass band, so once the corporal got to know that, he said, oh, I got a job for you, I went to see the sergeant in charge of the band at the time and he said, welcome, he says, it’s just what we need, so I joined the band. Doing that meant that we didn’t do so many parades or anything other than practice in the Weston-super-Mare pavilion there, so we did a lot of practice and of course the drill sergeant said, you know, he was quite upset because we were missing a lot of parades but on the other hand, we had to give concerts every night in the pavilion, so we did a lot of rehearsals during the day so we couldn’t be drilling and rehearsing as musicians, the musicians apparently had the first choice of our time, so I spent two months [unclear] at Weston-super-Mare and we were billeting in private houses in those days, about three to, three to a room, you know, use your little beds that you have, but I quite enjoyed the time there and then when it came to leaving super-Mare, I was destined to be a [unclear], transport driver, so I eventually arrived up, lasted up in the Blackpool School of Motoring, learning all about the cars and lorries, buses, the whole works and
DK: Had you actually driven before then
HM. Yes, I
DK: Or did they teach you to drive?
HM: I happened, actually I happened to be a driver because my brother had a car
DK: Right
HM: And he taught me to drive and I’ve driven ever since I was seventeen. But anyway, I still had to go through the usual school, learning about the combustion engines, and touring around Blackpool area, learning how to drive these cars, busses, lorries, whatever the corporal wanted that day
DK: So you were taught not only how to drive these vehicles, also how to maintain them, and the engines, and
HM: Yeah, we had to be, I rather was, were mechanics, we had to learn all about the combustion engine and be able to trace faults on the car, on the motor, on the whatever, the transport was the intention, so we had to learn all about that, I think that, I’m not sure if [unclear] but, yes, we had to learn both sides, both driving and positive the engine world, you know, so, I say I was there about two months, as actually there was the British School of Motoring that we were under and I had a lady instructor and she says, oh, you are fine enough, no problem with you, but when it came to passing the test, I couldn’t pass the test first time, you know, and I said to this lady, I’ll never pass the test because I’m far too nervous when it comes to anybody sitting beside me, but I know I can drive perfectly and I won’t hurt anybody, so anyway, after the second test, this lady instructor told the examiner exactly what I was done, he says, this airman is perfectly capable of driving anything you care to put on any he’ll drive properly, so the examiner took notice of this, so I passed.
DK: Right
HM: And that was the end of my time in Blackpool, we had off duty time so we passed most of our time at the YM I think, at the YMCA, playing billiards or whatever, snooker, well, you know anything that was coming up. One thing I do remember, going back to Weston-super-Mare, is every Sunday the Air Force had to attend morning service at the church and of course the job of the band was to lead them to the church so they led us to the church, we led them to the church, but the church wouldn’t let us in with our instruments so the corporal says, come back in an hour’s time, I want you here back in an hour’s time, so what we did, popped down the end of the road, went in a café, had a cup of tea so we missed the church service, so that was, I suppose, that’s one of the advantages of being in the brass, being a musician and then we just marched them back to the quarters again and dismissed for the day, had a day off, you know, that was just a little thing [unclear]
DK: Have you been in the band then?
HM: It was, yeah, if you were a musician, it was pretty good because you, various times you were called away to do a concert for somebody and we did, we did concerts, I would say every night, somewhere in the area, so,
DK: Was it something that you stuck to afterwards? Is it something that you’ve done all your life? Continued to play?
HM: Oh yes, I’d been a musician from eight years old I was taught, all my family are salvationers and I was naturally, we were all brought up to be salvationists of as I moved up in airs I was transferred from a junior band to the senior band and then from there I went to the Air Force, so I had a good solid grounding for playing in the band
DK: So just going back to when you passed your test for the motor transport
HM: Yeah
DK: What could you drive after passing that test? Was it the big trucks or?
HM: Yes, thirty hundred weight trucks
DK: You could drive thirty hundred weight trucks
HM: Yeah
DK: And coaches or anything like that?
HM: Yes, we had coaches as well, you had to be able to drive practically anything really, [unclear], yes, you had to be able to drive any vehicle that was to hand and what job was wanted to be done, so it was very interesting and [unclear] if I would say those two months I had
DK: So after those two months, were you posted to a squadron then or to an airfield?
HM: No, from there I went to Bridgnorth for general training, that was like building all of the Air Force discipline and duties and ranks and you know, the whole works of the Air Force you had to go through the, through a whole book as well as doing various drills, nothing like Weston-super-Mare, just ordinary drills, learning how to behave in public, behave at a table, sort of, was like officer training, you had to be able to do, holding a knife and fork and all the various equipment, depending what meal you were at, so it started from breakfast right away through to being at a dinner, black tie and everything sort of thing
DK: And how did you find all of that, was it interesting or?
HM: Well, it was very, I think, I mean, I wasn’t used to that sort of life, for the low station time was hard before that so I was used to very hard life, bringing up my mother had to go to work at four o’clock in the morning, to make enough money to feed us, perhaps people these days don’t understand what the Twenties and Thirties were like, you see, I’m going back a long way and then of course I was brought up by very disciplined parents, very loving but you did nothing on a Sunday except having your food, you couldn’t read anything, you couldn’t buy anything, you know, days were hard in those, today people haven’t got any idea what those days were like, the Thirties especially were, men were short of money, in fact it was the war that made a big change, a very big change in life, in my life anyway, I got sort of out into the world, I’d never been away from home, till I joined the Air Force, you know, I travelled up to Edinburgh, well, Edinburgh as far as I was concerned was Australia, could’ve been, because of us [unclear] altogether, I was born up in North Shields and I lived there, never went out at all, you know people cannot believe, these days they accept travelling all over the world,
DK: It’s normal, isn’t it, all just popping up all over Europe
HM: Oh, I’m gonna have a holiday, oh, where are we going this year? Oh, we’re going to Spain, we’re going all over, well, at my time you were lucky if you got as far as your own town really, that was as far as you got, anyway, back to Blackpool, and had a load of work [unclear] there, we’re billeted again in private houses, about, usually about three in a room depending from the size of the building and off duty we were going to [unclear] and just to, you know, spare time and of course we went to the Tower Ballroom I’ll come to that part later on but we went to the Tower Ballroom but we couldn’t dance just for the music and get together with the boys, get a little bit chatty, I thoroughly enjoyed learning all about motors and that came in handy in life later on as I advanced over the Air Force actually so from actually I think it was about two months approximately I haven’t got the exact date, well, I have the exact date somewhere, but I would say about two months and then we were posted again now I went to Bridgnorth which I was telling I was saying learning all about the Air Force discipline and ranks and how to behave in public and how to dine out and all this sort of thing as well as, pigeon, clay pigeon shooting,
DK: Oh right.
HM: We did a bit of clay pigeon shooting at Bridgnorth so there again, I think was, I think we were there three months, were quite a long time training at Bridgnorth, from Bridgnorth I was posted to Kidbrooke in London and a balloon barrage squadron where I was
DK: Whereabouts in London, sorry? Kilbourn?
HM: It was Kidbrooke
DK: Kidbrooke, right, Kidbrooke.
HM: Kidbrooke, 901 Squadron
DK: Right
HM: It was Kidbrooke, I was posted there as qualified motor driver and from Kidbrooke, Kidbrooke was the headquarters of the London Balloon Command
DK: Right, ok.
HM: And I was posted to Plumstead, which was a satellite of that squadron and from that site we supplied
DK: So the balloons, this is the barrage balloons,
HM: The big barrage balloons
DK: Yeah, right.
HM: The barrage balloons, with oxygen, you know, hydrogen, and from Plumstead we supplied the balloon sites with food every day and with any equipment we were transported over to they were only on WAAF sites, mostly WAAF sites, around my area anyway, I think I had three sites to go to every day, keep them topped up and most of the sites were WAAF, under the WAAF command, so I was there quite a long time then, while I was there off-duty times, I was stationed at the headquarters at Plumstead, when we were off-duty we used to pop out to Eltham Palace dancing, we couldn’t dance, I couldn’t dance, that’s for sure, we weren’t allowed to do things like that, anyway, funnily enough, we happened to have a corporal instructor, he said, I can dance in Civvy Street, I’ve danced in Civvy Street, I teach dancing, so we said, well, come on, you’ll have to show us what to do, you know, to go to the girls, when were nights off, so he taught us all about dancing,
DK: Oh, right [laughs]
HM: You can imagine, twenty airmen in a barrack room learning how to dance, was a bit of a laugh, but we learned the basics anyway, and then when we went out with the WAAFs, we’d get the tram out to Eltham and go to Eltham Palace to dance and when we were dancing, well, you could call it dancing [laughs], because the WAAFs, you know, and the locals would pick the WAAFs up, and I didn’t, I couldn’t get away with dancing, but never mind, the WAAFs used to come up, he said, Harry, if I don’t like the man I am dancing with, we just buzz him off, cause in those days we had what we called the excuse me dances, the chap and told him he had to move on, so that was my job when I went to the dances with the girls, they was coming on and you know, the girls winked as they went past so I would just get up and tap them on the shoulder away would go and so I had a good job dancing with the WAAFs, I went round once stopped and sat and it would happen again, you know, but it was like entertainment as far as we were concerned, and it got you again from the hard fact that there was the war [unclear] all the time I mean, many a time would have an air raid but would have shut down and such, you know [unclear] we could get but we got plenty of time off there, the only thing that they didn’t have was any place where we could get a shower or a bath or whatever you needed, so we had tickets to go into Woolwich and took the baths in Woolwich, we’d go and have a bath there and we’re taken in and then from there we would go to the pictures and put the night in, so that’s how we did a lot of entertainment down in London apart from the air raid traffic [unclear]. Mind you, the air raids, the weather on London and [unclear] was very foggy, smog
DK: Smog
HM: Absolutely thick, you could hardly see your hand in front of you, and in fact one day I was driving a just this light weight van and I got lost, I couldn’t see where I was going, I ended up on a greens somewhere and had to go in the van, just walk where I though the edge might be, I found the edge and then sort of well [unclear] somewhere I know but I no idea
DK: But the headlights were covered up as well, weren’t they?
HM: The headlights were, yeah, the headlights, you might as well not have them on, because they were shaded with little slots in the front and the light they gave off was minimal, no good enough, and you had, it was all in your head, you knew the route, so
DK: I imagine there must have been a few accidents
HM: Oh, there was a few accidents, but you couldn’t avoid it because you couldn’t see where you were going, cause so thick, mind you, we never moved any heavy equipment through the night
DK: Right
HM: Such as the hydrogen bottles, you know, they had, what you called, Scammells, American things, huge motors, but the length of the [unclear] really, and you had all your bottles on the back and then a trailer behind that, so, you know, you got a good length
DK: Did you drive any of those, the Scammells?
HM: I drove the Scammells, excuse me
DK: I’ll just pause that.
HM: So
DK: So, you actually drove the Scammells, then, did you?
HM: I drove, yeah, I drove the Scammells and with the trailer to the WAAF site
DK: And what would be your loads then, what normally were your loads then that you were carrying?
HM: Well, that I remember, that’d probably be about, about fifteen to twenty hydrogen bottles on the Scammell itself, with the same number on the trailer, and you took those to the site, drop them off as you are going round, I can’t exactly remember how many we dropped off at the time, anyway we would obviously drop them off for the [unclear] and pick up others to take back
DK: The empty ones you’d take back
HM: The empty ones we’d take back and then they would be collected by the foreman who provided them in the first place
DK: And refilled
HM: Refilled and then we would do that every day, really, that was something that we did every day and besides the odd little jobs around the site and we had one motorcyclist at place, like a sort of dispatch, dispatch right I would say, and of course there was
DK: So, did he escort you sometimes then?
HM: Yes, he would try and sort of lead the way but you know, you had to use a lot of your own instinct as well, you know, to keep on top of things, we had one or two WAAF drivers, not so many, had one or two of them, it was mostly men at that time,
DK: And were the women driving the big trucks as well?
HM: They never drove the big trucks, no, that was left to the men, the big trucks and busses, that was for the men there, so anyway I finished my time in Bridgnorth, at Plumstead, I went to Bridgnorth, I told you about Bridgnorth, and from Bridgnorth I was posted to Blackpool
DK: Right, yeah.
HM: I went to Blackpool, and I was only there about a fortnight and I was moved up to Northern Ireland, from there I went to Northern Ireland, to Eglinton
DK: Eglinton
HM: In Northern Ireland, well, actually the headquarters, I was at the headquarters first, actually to be honest, I worked from headquarters all the time, which was 5019 Squadron
DK: 5019
HM: 5019
DK: Alright
HM: Funnily enough, I can’t find it in the books anywhere, but I’ve got a photograph with the, of the group, you know
DK: Oh, right, ok.
HM: With the, with the whole squadron
DK: Right
HM: And we were the ones with peaky cups. You know, everybody else had foddered caps, we had a proper peaky cap. Fortunately when I was at Belfast, I got the one job that was going as driver to the officer in charge of the engineering and electrical works all over Ireland, so my job was to drive him to whatever airfield or maintenance area that needed his attention
DK: And what sort of vehicle were you driving him in then?
HM: A Hillman car
DK: Right
HM: One was one in a Hillman car to wherever was necessary, if so, to be honest I’ve been all over Northern Ireland,
DK: So, was he an officer then?
HM: Flight lieutenant
DK: Flight lieutenant, right
HM: Yes, he was Flight Lieutenant and he was in charge of electrical and mechanical vehicles and sites all over Northern Ireland
DK: Right
HM: So I have been nearly in every town in Northern Ireland you can think of, I spent some time in Ballykelly, the thing was, when I was with him, going around all these places, we’d call it aerodrome and he would say, I’m gonna be here three days, driver, just please yourself of what you do, I’m here and if anybody stops you, just refer them to me,
DK: Right
HM: So, every time I went anywhere, I was just on me own, wandering about, going for a coffee or whatever, for a cup of tea, you know
DK: So you got to know Northern Ireland quite well, then
HM: I got to know Northern Ireland upside down, yeah, went to Belfast, way along the top, Ballykelly was a big aerodrome and further along was Coleraine River Valley and Eglinton, which was also a naval station, they didn’t have any planes of course, it was just the station, but he had to look after the maintenance of the works on every station, you see, so, Eglinton came under his edict [unclear] as well, and I went into Londonderry quite a bit when I was off duty, and we used to go to a Roman Catholic tearoom which they had, you know, for Air Force, well, for forces members, so I often went there and had a cup of tea and a wad as they called it and the made us very welcome, at night [unclear] went to the cinema which was only a tin hut, so you can imagine what it was like when I rained, you couldn’t hear anything on because of the thundering and the rain but it was light entertainment I quite enjoyed it because I was more or less free-lance for nine months in Northern Ireland, the one thing that comes to mind, one night the chef put something on whatever it was, I think it was, I don’t know if it was [unclear] or whatever it was, anyway it was quite hot, and through the night, oh, everybody was ill, everybody on the camp was ill, you just had to go outside, you know, there was nothing else to do for it, you know, everybody was in the same boat, so, but it was a really desperate situation, I can tell you, caused many a laughing once we got over the problem, you know, the whole site, the whole camp, upside down, you know, with people dashing outside,
DK: Did the chef get into trouble over that?
HM: [laughs] I would imagine he did, I’ve never heard the end of the story of that but I imagine he would get a severe tipping off from the officer in charge [laughs], of the camp, you know, but it was just one of those things that all, it’s all in life, isn’t it? You know, so, that was it, Northern Ireland, anyway while I was at Northern Ireland after about nine months, a memo came round to anyone resting becoming an air gunner, you know, so I thought, oh damn, I’d done nine months here, I said, we’d be doing nothing really, you know, I always part of the war, and haven’t had me done, somebody had to do it, so anyway, I volunteered and I was accepted for aircrew
DK: Can you remember which year this would have been or
HM: That would have been 194
DK: 3?
HM: No, no, it was much later than that, was it ’43? That would be ’43, end of ‘43
DK: So, end of ’43, ‘44
HM: Yeah, [unclear] the end of ’43 or begin of ’44, was round that period, yes, we’re in 1944
DK: Right
HM: 1944, I definitely went and as you went on to London in those days and in Lord’s Cricket Ground was the
DK: The aircrew
HM: The aircrew selection so I went to the selection there, passed that, no [unclear] I was accepted to become an air gunner, of course you had a severe medical to become an aircrew, you had to be perfect, you know, eyesight, hearing, you know, there was no, if you had the slightest thing wrong with you, you didn’t pass, so anyway I passed all the tests, then we got about seven jabs for various things in case we were sent abroad, all at once you know [unclear] and the lads were going bang! Bang! [mimics a banging noise] so the tallest fellows it seemed to affect them more than us little fellows, you know, and they, they were going down, flat all with all these jabs, I mean, obviously they came round after a few minutes but they knocked them all out [unclear] so they took them a day so for everybody to get settled in so when I went there we just did the usual sports activities and training you know, what you call it? Physics, physical fitness
DK: Yep, yeah, [unclear]
HM: We did a lot of that, so we were perfectly fit when we left there, funnily enough I was just, I was there three months and I can’t remember, I can’t imagine where, how I was there three months, took my time I suppose
DK: And this was at Lord’s
HM: And this was at Lord’s Cricket Ground
DK: Yeah
HM: At the Long Room, so I can always say I’ve been at Lord’s Cricket Ground and the Long Room as well. Of course, I know it’s this sort of side effect, but you met a lot of ladies or young girls and you had a good time with them, I mean, I reckon all the airmen would tell you that,
DK: Yeah
HM: We’ve all had flings with somebody, you know, I mean, [laughs] I don’t know if this is [unclear], I had a, I met a lovely young lady, and she wanted me, I found out that she was a Jewess, you know, well, I did, that part didn’t bother me at all, you know, I said, I’m only here for a couple of months I said whatever, we’ll have a nice time, take her to the pictures, dances, and what that, which I did and [unclear], me mom and dad would like to see ye, oh no, no, I’m not, no, I’m not, so I said, yeah, well, it’s very kind of them but I’d rather think I’m not ready for that yet, so that passed, that was a little bit of history, some of my family don’t know that, but she was a lovely girl and we got on well together, you know, was just
DK: Well, it wasn’t the time to get serious then, was it?
HM: It wasn’t the time to get serious anyway with anybody, I mean, you could’ve been here one day and [unclear] the next, but it’s not fair to anybody [unclear], anyway that’s fine so I passed all the examinations and then I went to training school, to train as air gunner, but this, sorry, I’ve got mixed up, I put Bridgnorth before, it should be after
DK: Right, ok
HM: Right?
DK: Right, ok
HM: [unclear] by Bridgnorth, kind of when we learned about air gunnery
DK: Right, that was at Bridgnorth
HM: That was at Bridgnorth
Dk: Right, ok
HM: We learned all about Bridgnorth, we didn’t do route marches there, was all air gunnery training
DK: So, what, at Bridgnorth then, what sort of training as a gunner did you do then, was it all on the ground or?
HM: Yes, just to refresh me memory, I went to Pembury for air gunnery training,
DK: Right
HM: First
DK: Right
HM: I’m trying to get where this is in, I should have me book out, then I go to Bridgnorth first, or did I go to Pembrey first?
DK: That doesn’t matter, I mean, you obviously went to both, so,
HM: I went, yes, I went to Pembrey, yes, I think that, I think Pembrey was the first thing
DK: Right
HM: Before that
DK: So, it’s Pembrey then Bridgnorth
HM: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HM: Eh.
DK: So what was
HM: This, when he came flying Bridgnorth, Pembrey could’ve been after Bridgnorth, that’s right, ah, that’s right, I learned all about air gunnery, on the ground
DK: On the ground, so what did the training involve then? Did you have to get to know the wetland and [unclear]
HM: You had to learn all about the Browning 303 guns and you didn’t have to bother about rifles but we did do rifling on a course, firing at targets, you know, our legs spread out and
DK: Lying down
HM: Lying down, yeah, everybody lying down and instructors behind you telling you what to do, so, that was part of the training, firing rifles, we also did clay pigeon
DK: Right
HM: Clay pigeon shooting as well
DK: Is it something you took to? Were you quite?
HM: Yeah, quite happy with, I quite enjoyed clay pigeon shooting but because I mostly hit them, I must have been ok for that, yeah, I quite enjoyed that training
DK: So, was it deflection shooting then?
HM: Yes, deflection, oh no, deflection came at Pembrey
DK: Ah, right, ok.
HM: So, Bridgnorth comes before Pembrey
DK: Yeah
HM: We went to Pembrey, that’s the thing
DK: And that’s where you learned pigeon shooting
HM: That’s where I learned all the, that’s where we were up in Ansons and that’s where we did our air gunnery training, and hit a towing target, you know, a plane would drag a tow and we would have to fire at the tow, which had sunny camera as well, as well as live shooting we did
DK: So you had a trip in the Avro Anson then, would that’d been the first time you’ve flown?
DK: That was the first I’d ever been in the air
HM: Yes, this is the Anson one, this is, that’s, oh no, that’s Lossiemouth, that’s further on now, anyway, I did the, I did Pembrey training on Ansons, and that’s the first time I’ve been flying,
DK: So, was the turret in the Anson
HM: No, I can’t remember, there must have been a turret,
DK: Right
HM: There must have been a turret because we had been to fly, we had to fire at the drove
DK: Right
HM: And according to that, I had four percent so, that’s supposed to be good,
DK: Four percent?
HM: Supposed to be good,
DK: Right
HM: Out of a hundred rounds, yes, [unclear]
DK: A hundred rounds, four hit and that was quite good
HM: Yeah, pretty good, must have been, I passed. So, I did me Anson training down there and air gunnery and learning all about deflection
DK: Yeah
HM: Find the speed of your aircraft, find the speed of their aircraft, you find the width, the length and the distance between and fire a head of it, so many yards ahead so that the bullet was collided at the same time with the aircraft, hopefully, anyway I must admit when I hit, well, I did hit it a few times, so that’s gone down there so, so I passed out as an air gunner down in Anson, down in Pembrey on Ansons. From there I went to Lossiemouth
DK: Right, so [unclear] the logbook
HM: That’s where the logbook comes in
DK: Can I have a look?
HM: Yeah, have a look at there first.
DK: So, it’s, I’ve got here, just for this, it’s number 1 AGS, is that
HM: Yeah, 1 AGS
DK: It’s that Air Gunnery School?
HM: That’s Air Gunnery School
DK: And that’s at Pembrey
HM: Yeah, at Pembrey at that time
DK: So, that’s on the Avro Ansons
HM: Yeah. That’s on the Ansons.
DK: That tells you here how many rounds you fired. Say, three hundred rounds?
HM: Yeah
DK: So, three hundred rounds score, for example thirty-one?
HM: Thirty-one, yeah
DK: Three hundred rounds splashed, so you were [unclear] into the sea
HM: Yeah
DK: Yeah
HM: We had tiny cameras as well
DK: The steady cameras, yeah. Oh I see, it actually says sindy cameras, isn’t it?
HM: It says sindy camera, yeah
DK: So, total flying then was twenty-four hours, fifteen minutes
HM: Of training
DK: Yeah,
HM: Yeah
DK: Training at Pembrey, so,
HM: At Pembrey
DK: So, the flights itself weren’t very long, were they?
HM: Oh no
DK: About thirty minutes, thirty, forty minutes
HM: Yeah. No, the flights themselves weren’t very long, you were up
DK: Can you remember how many of you were in the Anson?
HM: There’d be about five of us, ex air gunners
DK: And you’d all take it in turns
HM: We’d all take it in turns
DK: To shoot
HM: Yeah
DK: So, then it tells you how many rounds you fired
HM: It tells how many rounds you fired there and if you were
DK: How many hits?
HM: There is one thing about all this training. If you failed on one subject, you were out
DK: You were out, yeah
HM: You didn’t get a second chance you know
DK: So, it says here beam
HM: Beams
DK: Beam, 7.83 percent. And then Beam RS
HM: Don’t remember what RS stands for
DK: That’s 5.66 percent hits. And then quarter
HM: Oh, that’s, ah, that’s if you draw [unclear], yeah, beam is stale across
DK: Beam across, yeah and quarter is 3.24 percent
HM: Yeah, it would be probably diving, and you’d have to follow it down
DK: So the quarter then, total was four thousand eight hundred rounds so you [unclear] corner
HM: In total
DK: In total, in total
HM: Oh yes, you done a lot of firing altogether but
DK: And they were all with the Browning 303s
HM: All with 303s
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah
DK: So, after Pembrey then, you’ve gone to Lossiemouth
HM: I went to Lossiemouth
DK: And that’s with 20 OTU, 20 Operational Training Unit
HM: Yeah, Operational Training Unit
DK: So, I’m just reading your logbook here, it’s just for the benefit of the recording,
HM: Yeah
DK: So, you went to Lossiemouth in September 1944
HM: Yeah
DK: And you were training on Wellingtons
HM: Wellingtons, yeah, lovely aircraft
DK: So, what do you, you liked the Wellingtons
HM: Lovely aircraft
DK: Yeah
HM: Yes, I liked the Wellington, was a really good, it seemed to be, what shall we say
DK: Stable?
HM: Very stable and, you know, it seemed you could do anything with it, and it would answer the call, whatever you wanted to do with it. You know, if you would tell the skipper to corkscrew, you know,
DK: Yeah. So, they were very agile
HM: Yeah, very agile aircraft, very manoeuvrable
DK: Very manoeuvrable.
HM: Manoeuvrable
DK: So, when you were training on the Wellingtons then, did you go? You were training in the turrets,
HM: Oh yes, we in the turrets, yeah
DK: So, you were in the rear turret
HM: Rear turret
DK: The front turret? Or the rear turret?
HM: I was never in the mid upper gunner
DK: Right
HM: I was always in the rear turret and I followed, you’re sort of on your own at the back, yeah, everybody else is in the front, and you are the full length of the aircraft at the other end, you felt on your own but you didn’t feel lonely, shall I say, you felt on your own but not lonely
DK: So, by the time you got to 20 OTU, have you met up with your crew now then or kind of [unclear]?
HM: That’s where you meet your crew
DK: Right
HM: All except the engineer
DK: Right.
HM: Yeah
DK: And how did your crew come together then?
HM: Well, you’re all sort of, shall I say, in a big room, and air gunners, you know, you’re only a little groups of navigators, air gunners and what, and then you sort of just wander about and you find this, well, you usually find the skipper and then sort of go round with him, having a chat with everybody and then see who liked to join us and you know, was, it wasn’t sort of you go there and you go there, you know, you had one and talked to everybody
DK: Did you think that was a good idea that you kind of found your own crews, you weren’t ordered to?
HM: Well, I think so because you thought, well, I could get on with that chap, and you know, if he’s willing to join us, well, what do you say? Well, they told their friend, so what do you think?
DK: Cause it’s quite
HM: [unclear] quite like him
DK: It’s quite unusual, isn’t it, because normally in the military, in the RAF, you’re told where to go and do this, do this
HM: [unclear]
DK: But the crewing up was very much
HM: Very much a disorganised organised
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, organised disorder, so they say
DK: And can you remember the name of the pilot that you ended up with?
HM: Oh yes, W. B. Holmes
DK: W. B. Holmes
HM: Yeah. Don’t ask me the names, I can tell you the, probably tell you the first name, the, he was called, W. B. Holmes, Basil, we called him Basil, anyway and we had a navigator who was called Jock, he was the bomb aimer, he was a Scot, he came from Scotland. Navigator, we had, he was from London, Ken, Ken, had another air gunner called, the mid upper gunner was called Colman, I forgot his name there, what was his name again? Oh! It’s gone, it’s gone over the head, he was one, he was the grandson of the mustard people, you know, Colman’s mustard
DK: Oh, right, oh right, yeah
HM: Was the grandson of the custard, people, the navigator was called Ken, he came from London. I’ve already given you the bomb aimer. Well, the flight
DK: Flight engineer
HM: Flight engineer, I don’t know if his name’s in the book
DK: We’ll have a look in a minute
HM: It might be
DK: So you were always the rear gunner then
HM: I was always the rear gunner, I operated in that position all the time, all the time I was at Lossiemouth
DK: Cause I noticed towards the end of the time at Lossiemouth, your pilot all the time was Holmes,
HM: Yeah, yeah
DK: So, you’ve crewed up by this point.
HM: Yeah, he’s
DK: So, you had another, other pilots then by
HM: We had another pilots but he was still with us on the pilot, the pilot was still with us every time,
DK: Oh, ok.
HM: The instructor would be with him
DK: Oh, ok, so, you’ve crewed up and where it mentions another pilot, your pilot’s there but he is the instructor,
HM: Yeah
DK: Yes, I’ve [unclear] with you
HM: He’s the instructor as well, you see. It was a nice aircraft, the Wellington, mine was very cold, and we had, fortunately we had heat suits, you know, but once I climbed from the rear turret into the middle over the spire and of course I didn’t have me, me heat on then, I mean, me feet were absolutely frozen, I couldn’t feel them, couldn’t move them, so the lads had to drag us over the top and to plug in to bring the circulus back and
DK: So, did you have a heated suit then?
HM: Oh yeah, I had a heated suit which just [unclear] various points of the aircraft because at fifteen thousand feet, you know, it’s very cold and you could feel it, I mean, as you know, we had silk, wool and silk underwear, as well as ordinary suit, the flying suit on top of that, we had plenty of [unclear], plenty of [unclear], as far as the heat was concerned, the temperature at fifteen is pretty low and I lost the use of my legs cause so cold, as soon as I plugged in warm,
DK: Warmed up again
HM: So, ok, no problem at all. So that was Lossiemouth, I spent quite, I think I told you
DK: Yeah, you, it says here you were at Lossiemouth until the end of November 1944
HM: Yeah, about three months I think there
DK: Yeah. And then, going on for the benefit of the recording here, you then gone to 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit
HM: Heavy Conversion Unit, Rufforth
DK: Rufforth
HM: Just outside York
DK: Right. So then, that’s March 1945,
HM: Yeah
DK: So that’s in Halifax IIIs?
HM: Halifax IIIs. Yeah, that was a different one to that one there, that’s the two,
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah, Halifax Mark IIIs.
DK: So, what did you think of the Halifaxes then?
HM: Well, I find them fine, they seemed to me to be a solid aircraft, you know, was heavily, was, apparently it was, the engine was underpowered, should’ve had stronger engines, they had the Merlins, Merlin engines but apparently was underpowered, the Halifaxes but also workhorse of the Air Force, no doubt about it
DK: Cause the Halifax III had the Bristol Her, Bristol engines, didn’t they?
HM: The
DK: Bristol [unclear]
HM: They had, they changed to Bristol engines, but the first ones, the Merlins were underpowered,
DK: Underpowered, yeah
HM: But I found it, the skipper seemed to like it, he, there is one thing about him he would let us have a go at flying it as well
DK: Oh, right
HM: Of course, I mean, he was here all the time, so he said, well, if anything happens to me, at least somebody will do, sort of take over and manage to get home sort of thing
DK: So, how often did you take control then?
HM: More or less every time we were up, just for a five minutes maybe, just get a go at it and feel
DK: Really?
HM: Feel it, you know, but nearly every time up, without the instructor
DK: Yeah, without the instructor looking [laughs]
HM: He wouldn’t let, but the skipper did, especially if we were on a long flight,
DK: Yeah. Do you
HM: Three hours up, three hours up to five I was
DK: Do you think that might have given your pilot a bit of confidence, knowing that if something happened to him, somebody would step in?
HM: Yeah. Well, I think that’s what he wanted us to do, I think that it gave him, as he was saying, probably gave him confidence if anything happened to him we could, at least one of us could probably manage to get us home sort of thing. But that’s where I finished, that’s where I finished me time, Rufforth. [unclear] I got to a squadron first, I got to a squadron after that but you [unclear] any about the squadron
DK: Alright, ok, so at the Heavy Conversion Unit, that’s where the flight engineer would have joined you, wouldn’t
HM: That’s where he joined, at [unclear], that’s the first time we’d met him
DK: So you are now a crew of seven at that point
HM: We’re a crew of seven at that point
DK: Yeah
HM: Yeah
DK: Right, so that’s it for the logbook then
HM: That’s it for the logbook, yeah. The reason for that was the war ended
DK: Alright
HM: We just got into Full Sutton, 77 Squadron, got booked in and had a chat there, got me leader, met everybody we had to meet and of course the war finished
DK: Yeah
HM: So, I never got on operations
DK: Never got on operations
HM: So, and then
DK: So, after all that training
HM: [laughs] after years training,
DK: Yeah
HM: You know,
DK: So it says here, the last flight here is 4th of May 1945
HM: That’s it
DK: As a rear gunner
HM: And I trained, I started
DK: Holmes’s again the pilot
HM: Yeah
DK: In the Halifax III
HM: Yeah
DK: So that’s just before you went to 77 Squadron at Full Sutton
HM: Yeah, went to Full Sutton and they had Halifaxes of course, booked in and did everything we had to do, we stayed about a month I think,
DK: Yeah, so
HM: And then I got
DK: The war’s ended
HM: The war ended, so there was no use for air gunners
DK: Yeah
HM: So, then I got posted down to RAF Beaulieu. From Beaulieu, cause if you knew you moved through the rank of sergeant by then
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, when I was sergeant at Rufforth, well, I was sergeant at Lossiemouth. Then I transferred from there down to Beaulieu, A-F-E-E Squadron, which was Air Force Experimental Establishment, so they were expecting on, they were practicing jeeps, and dropping jeeps
DK: Oh, right, ok, from
HM: Parachuting jeeps
DK: From Halifaxes again
HM: No, no, from, what aircraft did they get there? I can’t remember what aircraft we had, was it the Dakota? Could’ve been a Dakota.
DK: Yeah
HM: But I, you see, I wasn’t flying then
DK: Alright
HM: I’ve been moved back to my MT, I was NCO in charge of the MT at Beaulieu, cause I was gone up the rank again, I was Flight Sergeant by then,
DK: Looking back now, how do you feel that, after all that training, you didn’t do any operations? Do you feel that’s a good thing or?
HM: Well
DK: Relieved?
HM: Oh, I didn’t, to be honest, I didn’t feel, I didn’t feel anything
DK: No
HM: I just felt I’d done all that work for nothing. I mean, of course they didn’t know when the war was going to end,
DK: No
HM: You know, they got no idea so I could well have been in operations
DK: Was there any suggestion about you going to the Far East?
HM: Never any [unclear], just, no, I was never at any time moved out of the UK, the only time I went was Northern Ireland, it’s as far as I got across the water, but, no, I never, they didn’t, I don’t know, it just didn’t seem to bother me at the time, I mean, you’re young, you know, you’re twenty years old so, and you don’t sort of care what happens, you just get on with life as it comes,
DK: So how did you, after all these years, how do you look back at your time in the RAF then? Was it?
HM: I enjoyed my time in the RAF
DK: Yeah
HM: In fact so much so I wanted to stay on
DK: Right, so
HM: I wanted it to become a career
DK: Right
HM: But
DK: So you left in ’47.
HM: So I left in ’47. I did five full years in the RAF, I went in April and I think I came out in April approximately anyway
DK: And what was your career after that?
HM: Well, I had to go back to civvy life and I mean, already most of the jobs had been taken up because I’d been out for two years, most of them had been out for forty five, you know, out of forty five alot, I still [unclear] went after that but for two years the jobs were getting filled up
DK: Yeah
HM: So
DK: So, there’s few opportunities for you by now
HM: There was fewer opportunities really, there was very little to pick on, so I had to go sort of, I did, I joined, a [unclear] worked as a [unclear] so he got me a job at the, [unclear] shop, was a big concern, [unclear] called it, he had about six shops spread over here and there and I used to drive the van there delivering the goods round the shop for customers you know and then from there, I didn’t like that job at all, well, I had, it was just to get money, really, you had to have something to live on, so from there I went to insurance, I did two years in insurance and then a job came up at Hoover Limited were applying for a man so I applied there and I got a job there and that was the best thing that I’ve done in my life, working for Hoover
DK: So you were there a number of years then
HM: I was there for, oh, ten years, something like that
DK: You say you wanted to stay on in the Air Force. Did, was there a reason why?
HM: The reason was why, my wife
DK: Ah, ok [laughs]
HM: She wanted a home
DK: Right, ok
HM: Cause I said, you know, I’m, I’d like to stay on but she said, well, I’m not very happy about that, so I said, well, fair right enough, fair enough, I’ll, I could have made a lovely career cause I’d been put forward to become an officer, you know and the squadron leader, I can see him now, engineering officer, I wonder whether actually he’d come and think of it because I was in the charge of the MT section and I had WAAFs as well and the young, the young WAAFs were devils, they’re always late in turning up for work, you know, [unclear] started at eight o’clock, there’s one in particular, [unclear], nice girl, always a half an hour late, you know, and I used to warn her, [unclear] if you keep going on like this, so I did fancy but I got kind of fed up, so I said, look, I’m going to show my authority in here instead of being nice to you all, I’m gonna be a sergeant, so I put her on a fizzer and I’ll tell you another one, I went, [unclear], report order and all so I saw the WAAF, Flight Lieutenant she was, had a word with her, you know, she was a nice girl, I said, you know, a WAAF, you see, putting on a WAAF in charge is different than putting a man in charge, when you want a man in charge, you stand beside him,
DK: Right
HM: If you put a WAAF on charge, you stand beside the officer,
DK: Right
HM: And she asks the other questions, you know, and the reason why I brought her [unclear] and of course there’s a WAAF sergeant with the girl so anyway she got seven days [unclear], I said, there you are, that’ll have to keep you, she said, well, I wasn’t going to go out anyway [laughs], oh well, that’s a good excuse, but I wasn’t that type of NCO, you know, I was very lenient with them, as long as they did their job I was quite happy, there’s only I got tired of them, not turn up with the others, which was like school, and that was another [unclear], the squadron leader and engineering officer who M T [unclear], he, I put one of the lads on a fizzer, he’d been abroad and he only had shoes, well he [unclear] so he had to wear boots you know, well, aircrew always wore shoes but ordinary airmen wore boots
DK: Yeah
HM: And he was an ordinary airman and he just had shoes on this day, officer happened to come along, Squadron Leader [unclear], can picture him, and he says, he came into the office and he says, Mercer, says, I saw an airman over there and he’s got shoes on, he’s not allowed to wear shoes, so I said, well, I’m sorry sir but that airman has just come from abroad and he hasn’t been issued with shoes, boots, never mind that, you’ve got to put him on a charge, so I put him on a charge, and then a flight lieutenant took the [unclear] that day to say I got this lad, this airman, what you’re here for, you know, oh, you’ve been wearing shoes, you’re not allowed to wear shoes. So he said he hadn’t any boots, he said, I haven’t any boots, he says, well, the [unclear] chaps in charge of the distribution of clothing
DK: Yeah,
HM: Yeah
DK: The quartermaster
HM: Well, sort of a quartermaster, yeah, airman in the forces
DK: Yeah, yeah
HM: Clothing whatever, anyway, he hadn’t boots to fit in so well, he said, that’s tough, he says, you should be wearing boots, he said, I had them before now, so I said, I’m sorry sir, you can’t charge him because this airman has just come from abroad and there’s no way if the stores, the main stores haven’t got boots in, there’s some over there the equipment, I’ll talk to the equipment officers
DK: The equipment officer, yeah
HM: So, he was just a flight lieutenant, so he said, righto, I’ll take you [unclear], discharged, so obviously phoned squadron leader [unclear] here, is Mercer there? oh yes, speaking sir, I want to see you, ok, so I went to see him, he said, you did the wrong thing, you know, I said, why, sir? He said, well, you got this airman off his charge, I said, well, I believe in equality as well and I’m right, right decisions to be made, sir, well, I says, this airman had no chance to get shoes, the boots, I said, all he could bare were shoes, at least he turned up properly
DK: Yeah, yeah
HM: Did his duties properly. Oh right, well, I’ll let you off this time, I says, ok, sir. Anyway, the next [unclear] rings me up again, I want a word with you, so I said, yeah, that’s fine. He said, let’s forget about that situation, he said, would you not like to join full time, and be make of your career, I said, to be quite honest, sir, I would love to, but you’d have to have two words with my wife if you wanted to get me here. So, you know, there’s a camaraderie in the Air Force as well, you can talk, at one I suppose I can talk [unclear] me, but I think the discipline is not quite so strict as the other forces, there’s a little bit of leniency, in my opinion, because it was the same on nearly every camp I went to, I used to get on well with all the officers and all the fellows around about, [unclear] a different atmosphere amongst the
DK: Is it something you missed then over the years?
HM: Yeah, I miss, I do, I miss the camaraderie as I would call it, the get togetherness, you know
DK: Did you manage to stay in touch with any of your crew at all?
HM: No, unfortunately we only had one get together, down in London in the Cumberland Hotel, and I never couldn’t get in touch with anybody anymore after that, nobody seemed to bother, you know, but we’d be together quite long to nearly a year nearly from the think of it, when you think of it
DK: There’s a lot of training you went through together, wasn’t it?
HM: A lot of training we went through together, many good nights we had together, and that, the last one the squadron leader I was talking about, the last engineering officer, one night I was finishing the last week actually and it was a terrific storm that night, he says, come on, we’ll have to go out and check all the aircraft, so I went round with him and all the time he says, [unclear] you could make a lovely career, he says, there’s good things ahead for you if you want to stay in, he says, I’ll speak for you, so, but he tried all that, all that night and it was a really horrible night, wind howling and we just checked the aircraft and then that was it but he was, he’d been in the Air Force a long time, he was engineer, squadron leader and he was engineering officer, and I got on very well with him and wanted him just things going through my head sometimes, we had to lift a huge pile about the height of this room round, out of a Nissen hut, you know, was the height of the Nissen hut, I think it was the dining section so it might have been a bigger hut, anyway it had to be lifted this boiler had to be lifted out
DK: So it was a boiler you were lifting out
HM: It was a boiler I was lifting out, one of these huge things and so I said, one of the drivers, he says, look, will you take the trawls crane, to lift this boiler up, for we want to get to disposal, oh, I can’t, I can’t do that, I say, yes, pushed an empty [unclear], yeah but, he said, but I have never lifted a boiler and I have never driven a trawls crane, says, some driver you are, so anyway, I couldn’t get any of them, anyone, I said, it’s slightly the worst thing, do it yourself if you want to do it, if you want don’t, do it yourself, so I had to, I had never drove a [unclear] crane to be quite truthful, so anyway I had a run, just did what I had to do and give it a few works to see how it lifted and dropped and I lifted it up, put it up, and the lad said, gave us a clap [laughs] after at first, I said, you lot should have been doing this, not me
DK: So, can I just go back to something, I just noticed on here, 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit
HM: Yeah
DK: It says, you did twenty-eight hours twenty-four minutes daily and seven hours five minutes flying at night, so that was all training
HM: That’s all training, yeah
DK: So, what was the night-time flying like, was that hazardous or?
HM: Well, it was hazardous in a way, because although the war had finished, you never knew if there was gonna be a stray around so you had to still keep on your guard, you know, I’d rather think you were so tensed really but you had to still keep your way as you were flying and we were flying right down to the coast, you know, the full length of England and just to the coast and back and [unclear] and the skipper says, we better turn back or they think we are going to drop a bomb on them and we were going over Bristol Channel, just around about that area, he says, the rear gunner, you can have test your guns here if you wish, I said, ok, so I prepared everything and had a few bursts, he said, I think, I think that’s enough, they might think we are firing at them and they will be firing back at us, yeah, these are just little things that, you know, people think, well you wouldn’t do, but you do
DK: Cause some of these training flights they are quite long, are they? There is one here is three hours and three minutes
HM: Three hours, yeah
DK: And others are quite short, aren’t they? About forty minutes, fifteen minutes
HM: Yeah, you’ll find the one, three hours and I think there’s one a bit longer than that
DK: I got three twenty-five and three fifteen
HM: Yeah
DK: It looks like that
HM: That’s when we went down the coast, right to the bottom and back
DK: Ok then, I’ll probably stop you there, I think, that’s marvellous that is
HM: Yeah
DK: Thanks very much for your time
HM: Yeah, well
DK: I’ll stop that now
HM: We did our work and I never used it
DK: Yeah
HM: You know, we put a lot of time and thought into it, sort of thing
DK: So, you put a lot of time and effort into the training and then never did any operations
HM: No, we never did the finishing work, but I enjoyed me time in the Air Force anyway, you know, the five years that I had, I’ve got, you know, some nice memories
DK: Memories, yeah
HM: Memories of it
DK: Yeah
HM: And that’s as you say, the only thing that I didn’t do an operation [unclear] after training, you know, but
DK: [unclear]
HM: That’s a luck of the draw,
DK: Yeah
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harold Mercer
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-05-19
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMercerH170519, PMercerH1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:14:52 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harold Mercer served in the RAF initially as a transport driver and then trained to become an air gunner. He worked as a milkman before being called up in April 1942. Was sent to Weston-super-Mare, where he played in the military band. Was then sent to Blackpool to train as a transport driver. From there he was sent to RAF Bridgnorth for general training. Was then posted to 901 Squadron on barrage balloons at RAF Kidbrooke, London, where as a transport driver he supplied balloon sites with food and equipment. Was then posted to Eglinton, Northern Ireland at 5019 Squadron, where he drove a flight lieutenant to various airfields and maintenance sites. Was then sent to train as an air gunner. He flew on Ansons at RAF Pembrey and on Wellingtons at RAF Lossiemouth. Was then posted to 1663 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Rufforth on Halifax Mark IIIs and from there to 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton. By that time, war had ended and so he never got on operations. Was then posted to RAF Beaulieu to the Air Force Experimental Establishment.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--London
England--Shropshire
England--Yorkshire
Northern Ireland
Scotland--Moray
Wales--Carmarthenshire
Great Britain
Great Britain
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1944
1945
1663 HCU
20 OTU
77 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
entertainment
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Pembrey
RAF Rufforth
RAF Weston-super-Mare
service vehicle
training
Wellington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/939/11298/AMackieGA171222.1.mp3
e9ca13049823098df01cd69c65a59715
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mackie, George
George Alexander Mackie
G A Mackie
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with George Mackie (1920 - 2020, 855966 Royal Air Force) with his log books, diary extract, list of operations, battle order and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 15 and 214 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Mackie, GA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
GM: In that silence, revulsion of what Bomber Command did and a claim for what Bomber Command did, were in that silence, that trivial monument in Green Park is for the benefit of the multi-millionaires that erected it, in [unclear] in Flanders, every name of the dead is inscribed in stone, the only names inscribed in stone at Green Park are the millionaires names, the rest are painted, this cheap, cheap gesture on the part of about half a dozen millionaires, so, if you want to carry on with that knowledge of my opposition to monuments, I’d be
CB: That’s fine. Did you go to the opening of that? Were you invited to it?
GM: Of course not [laughs]. I wouldn’t be seen dead near that monument.
CB: Did they invite you though?
GM: No.
CB: Right.
GM: Very glad they didn’t. I wrote against it. It’s also a hideous piece of architecture. So, let’s talk about the war
CB: OK, we’ll do that, I need to be able to. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 22nd of December 2017. We are in Stamford in Lincolnshire, talking to George Mackie about his experiences of life and the RAF. So, what are your first recollections of life, George?
GM: I can’t remember. I think
CB: You were born in Cupar, in Scotland
GM: Yes, and I was in my teens, was waiting for the war to begin.
CB: Right.
GM: It began and I wanted to fly so I presented myself in Dundee at the recruiting office. On Monday because the war had started on a Sunday but nothing happened for weeks until I went back to Dundee school of art and then I was called down to a place in the Midlands for medical which lasted two days, Warrington and I wasn’t actually called up until June of 1940 and sent to Babbacombe near Torquay for a month or six weeks square bashing which I thoroughly enjoyed, squad of fifty people being drilled,
CB: Yeah
GM: And from there [unclear] Cambridge, St John’s college, lectures on navigation, meteorology and so on, contrast to Babbacombe and from Cambridge again a contrast to Stoke-on-Trent to begin flying on Magisters, very difficult conditions for flying because there was no horizon. A horizon is very necessary for learning to fly and there was none, was just smoke and no one said the absence of horizon is going to be difficult, so we thought we were [unclear] and but I got through. From Stoke-on-Trent to Cranfield which is a very inconspicuous place compared to today and we flew Oxfords and I started liking flying for the first time. I remember engine failure at a thousand feet [unclear] the fuel and diving down to [unclear] the fuel that was good, good stuff, that was exciting. And from Cranfield onto Wellingtons, a place twenty five miles south of Cambridge whose name escaped me, flying Wellingtons, one day a Stirling through across at a thousand feet, they were very silent, Stirlings, compared to other aircraft, they were huge, very impressive and I went straight to the adjutant and said, I want to go to the Stirling squadron, now, further or not, that had any bearing on the final decision I don’t know but the point was I was posted from the Wellingtons to 15 Squadron at Wyton, one of two squadrons with Stirlings and I have almost one thousand five hundred hours flying in Stirlings which I think is higher than anyone else. You have to switch thing off [unclear]
CB: That’s ok.
GM: So, there I was in 15 Squadron during 1941 and what I didn’t know was how appalling the mess was that Bomber Command was in, we was sent off solo, there was no such thing as a bomber stream, we went off fifteen minute intervals trying to find a target in Germany, we were hopeless at navigation, we were, my navigator had a sextant to try and navigate with, can you imagine?
CB: I’ve used it [laughs]
GM: We weren’t hitting targets
CB: Right
GM: And by the beginning of 1942 the retrenchment of Bomber Command and I was posted to a newly formed Heavy Conversion Unit to train pilots on the new four-engined aircraft, the Stirlings were just coming in and mostfully I was at Waterbeach for eighteen months in which time I only did three ops, they were the thousand bomber raids and I didn’t go back on ops until the Autumn of 1943 in 214 Squadron, so my eighteen months in Waterbeach was a wonderful period of learning to fly the Stirling cause until you instruct on an aircraft you don’t know it and I got to know the Stirling intimately, the most peculiar airplane, take-off, particularly take-off, the talk from the four engines plus the fact that the rudder was out of action until the tail was up in the slipstream meant that the take-off had a colossal urge to veer right off the runway, so the first thing you did was to put the stick fully forwards and open the throttles diagonally, now in Mark I Stirlings, the throttles were parallel, topped by large bulbs, large knobs, which my hand could not encompass
CB: Right
GM: So it was quite tricky trying to open the throttled diagonally nor could my legs reach the rudder bar because they were too short so I had to stuff a parachute behind me to reach the rudder bar so that couple with the Stirlings own eccentricities made flying the aircraft rather tricky. That I got to tell [unclear] sort of course, switch off.
CB: The Stirling was a Marmite type airplane, was it? People either loved it or hated it?
GM: What is Marmite?
CB: You either love it or hate it.
GM: Oh, I loved it because I survived in it and it was [unclear] in design, it was made to be, it was supposed to be the [unclear] version of the Sunderland flying boats with a wing span of a hundred and ten feet, in the event the wingspan was cut down to ninety-nine feet to enter peacetime hangars which were a hundred feet wide, of course, most of the maintenance was done outside anyway, day and night, and that made the aircraft most peculiar, a huge undercarriage and the angle of take-off was absurd
CB: Well, you were sitting twenty-eight feet above the ground, weren’t you?
GM: Well, yes.
CB: So that meant the tail was very low in comparison with the
GM: And until the tail was up, the rudder didn’t work
CB: Yeah, that’s interesting
GM: The [unclear] was switched
CB: Yeah. What sort of speed would you have to get to, in order for the tail plane to get up?
GM: Oh, maybe fifty
CB: Right. And then, when you got to V2, what would you be taking off at?
GM: Oh, ninety?
CB: Right
GM: [unclear]
CB: Right, yeah, oh, one [unclear]
GM: Well, a hundred with bombs
CB: Yeah
GM: A hundred and ten, it depends, it depends on the aircraft, they varied quite a bit
CB: Right
GM: And from Stirling to Stirling
CB: Right. As we were talking about the HCU, what condition were the planes in at HCU, Stirlings?
GM: They were all second hand, they were all ex operational, the groundcrews worked twenty four hours a day, we didn’t give them sufficient credit for what they did, we took them for granted, I’m sure you’ll find this a refrain from aircrew, we took them for granted.
CB: And did, what was the reliability like, as they were clapped out?
GM: Oh, various having an engine failure, no, the Hercules engine was extremely good
CB: You mentioned thousand bomber raids, three of those or three ops to [unclear]?
GM: Well the thousand one which has gone down in history
CB: Yeah
GM: That was a [unclear]. I remember standing by the Stirling while the Wellingtons were going out, dozens and dozens and dozens at about a thousand feet climbing. When we took off, I mean, across the North Sea, you could see a long distance away Cologne bombing, a clear night and we got to the target, we were towards the end of the raid, it was an excellent opposition, next to no searchlights, next to no flak and I had a telescope, I remember trying to identify Cologne through this telescope, we finally got the [unclear] bombed, it was an absolutely easy job, operation but militarily of no significance, psychologically yes
CB: We’ll stop for a mo. So, the reason that the Lancaster and the Halifax didn’t have the yawring problem same was because their [unclear] were
GM: Because they had two rudders
CB: Two rudders
GM: Directly in the slipstream
CB: In the slipstream, yeah, whereas yours was part of the fuselage so it was blanked off
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. You mentioned that early on in your ops you flew as second pilot, what was the
GM: Everyone did
CB: Right
GM: Was standard until in 1942 as part of the re-organisation of the Bomber Command was a man called Peirse, was before Harris,
CB: Right
GM: a disaster, a disaster of a man, I can’t tell you how badly organised Bomber Command was in 1941
CB: So how it operate there then?
GM: Where?
CB: In 1941, how was it operating on operations?
GM: Well,
CB: They didn’t use bomber streams, so what did they do?
GM: Well, we went off at endurance, I should write this down
CB: You should, yeah. You’re going to get this back as a written testament anyway
GM: Mercifully Harris took over and he at least organised things, although he finished up there being a quite psychopathic about bombing German cities, that was, you know, in terms of military advantage it was a crazy, compared to what the Americans were doing
CB: So, with Peirse, can I go just back to Peirse? With, you took off at intervals and
GM: Very few of us, I mean, a maximum effort by Stirlings squadron in 1941 would be say half a dozen aircraft?
CB: Out of
GM: Half a dozen
CB: Out of how many in the squadron?
GM: Well, maybe ten and four only on serviceable
CB: Right
GM: I mean, compared to late, the late war, two Lancaster squadron were maybe forty, fifty aircraft
CB: Yeah
GM: That was a form of the fulfilment of Bomber Command
CB: Yeah, a Lancaster squadron would typically have at least twenty, wouldn’t it?
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. But in your day, with the Stirlings, much less
GM: The Stirlings was electrical and it was a nightmare to keep serviceable
CB: Eh?
GM: Everything was electrical and nothing but short, short brothers
CB: Short brothers and short circuits. What was the most common reason for them going U.S.?
GM: I don’t know. We took, I took no interest, I just put the thing U.S. and that was [unclear]
CB: So, early in the war, you were still, you were using flight engineers on the aircraft.
GM: Oh yes
CB: And they were busy dealing with
GM: Oh chiefly petrol, tanks, we had fourteen tanks so they kept on manoeuvring the petrol, two tanks for take-off and then after [unclear] minutes changed the tanks and also I believe the flight engineer held the throttles and things like that, never in my time
CB: Right
GM: I did it all, get airborne, get the throttles fully open, undercarriage up, up,
CB: Electrical undercarriage as well, not hydraulic
GM: Seems as they were [unclear] retract
CB: Yeah
GM: If it retracted. If it didn’t retract, it had to be done by hand, it took about fifteen minutes, yeah
CB: Who would do the winding?
GM: Oh, anybody, not the pilot
CB: Right. So, initially, your first fifteen ops, you said were as second pilot, then you became the captain after that
GM: I did two as a captain and then I was posted off ops, as were quite a few of us
CB: Yeah
GM: To become instructors
CB: Right
GM: At the newly formed Heavy Conversion Unit and as I said, I was there for eighteen months
CB: Yes
GM: Before going back on ops and when I did go back on ops, I knew the Stirling aircraft, down to flying it, I mean, intimately, and it increased my chances of surviving my second tour of ops
CB: Yeah
GM: And in 214 Squadron I had the great good fortune to start flying fortresses in a hundred group
CB: Yeah
GM: Radar, anti-radar [unclear], we accompanied the bombers, carrying no bombs and if I were a German night fighter pilot and he’s a Stirling, a fortress full of electronics, and here the Lancaster full of bombs, and go for the Lancaster, so we had very few fatalities on 214 Squadron with Fortresses
CB: Because they knew they didn’t carry a bomb load
GM: There’s a piece of paper with the rotors
CB: Yeah. Here we are. So, we’ve got a piece of paper with your ops on and then
GM: There’s the Fortress losses
CB: Yeah
GM: There’s the Stirling losses
CB: Right, yeah. So how different was the Fortress to fly?
GM: The Fortress was child’s play, the perfect aircraft, from mass production for mass produced pilots, the Stirling was the worst possible aircraft for mass produced pilots, it was like something unique, the Fortress, you pushed the throttles open, the throttles were perfectly attuned to your hand and it just took off like a dream and landed like a dream, child’s play, perfect for formation flying, stable, very stable, the Stirling wasn’t, the Stirling was agile, frisky,
CB: Well, the Fortress was designed in the concept of formation box flying
GM: It was designed for formation flying
CB: Yeah
GM: And it was perfect for formation flying
CB: Yeah
GM: It didn’t want to do anything but [unclear] flying
CB: And on the Fortress, the B-17, did you fly with a co-pilot there as well?
GM: Occasionally
CB: But not normally
GM: [unclear] second pilot just for one or two trips, for experience, the idea of doing fifteen as a second pilot was out by 1942
CB: Yeah. Because of the HCU
GM: Was useless
CB: Yeah. The HCU system dealt with that, HCU
GM: Yeah
CB: So when people joined the Stirlings, they, you said they were difficult to take-off, was there a high accident rate associated with that?
GM: Hundreds.
CB: Which did it, it bent the aeroplane but did it, were there fatalities linked to that or just?
GM: No, just crashed, swing and take-off
CB: What was the best thing about the Stirling?
GM: Agility, agile, remarkable, remarkable manoeuvrability, unbelievable for an aircraft that size. I, mastered a stall turn, which is going up like this, can you imagine a large four-engine aircraft at this angle? And kicking the rudder bar stalled, I got quite a reputation for it at Waterbeach.
CB: Was this proving a point or because it was exciting?
GM: Just showing what the Stirling could do, stall turn, quite remarkable
CB: So, a steep climb and then kick the rudder
GM: Yeah. It had a very bad reputation, didn’t carry more than two thousand pounds weight of bombs, I mean, because of the bomb containers
CB: The size of the them
GM: What the Lancaster does was quite stupefying, the weight [unclear]
CB: Yes
GM: Stupefying, nothing in the world like it
CB: Yeah
GM: At the time
CB: Yeah
GM: I mean, Britain did lead the war [unclear], not like today leaving Europe
CB: What was the crew’s reaction to the, your crew in 15 Squadron, how well did they work together?
GM: They were [unclear], various of camaraderie
CB: What were they frightened of mainly?
GM: Death
CB: But the aircraft or
GM: Death,
CB: Or just
GM: Death,
CB: The raid?
GM: I mean, the whole squadron was infected by fear
CB: Was it?
GM: Oh, I think so. Cause when you are not doing anything positive
CB: Yeah
GM: Just being exposed
CB: Cause this is part of, is it, what you were talking about earlier, the disorganisation of Bomber Command meant that it worked in a very inefficient way
GM: [unclear] If you look at the dates of ops
CB: Yeah
GM: Quite absurd, the Stirlings just in service. July in 1941 the 6th and the 7th, then the 12th and the 23rd, 25th and then a month before August 25, then between August 25 and September 19th, October the 12th, the 24th, why weren’t Stirlings used more often? Yes, it’s frightful indictment
CB: What was your conclusion about why they were not used more often?
GM: Oh, we didn’t conclude anything, we didn’t even know the morale was bad, how do you know that morale was bad at the time? You don’t know
CB: Right
GM: You think, this was my first operational squadron
CB: Yes
GM: For all I knew this was normal
CB: Right
GM: In that respect, I know that morale was bad
CB: So, can you talk me through a raid, starting with the briefing? How would this evolve over the course of the night?
GM: Well, briefing didn’t change, it got more complicated
CB: So the briefing was everybody together in the ops room to hear the target and the route, is that right?
GM: Yeah. Well, that didn’t change, only towards the end of the war there were half a dozen streams instead of one, well, in fact, there were no streams to begin with, just [unclear] the target and the navigator worked it out how to get there
CB: So in the ops room, in the briefing room you would be told what the target was and the route.
GM: Oh yes.
CB: Was the route, the navigator had to work it out but was the route straight or was it?
GM: I think it was, I think it was [unclear] the navigator to work out how to get there
CB: Oh, right.
GM: Which is part of the amateurness of the role
CB: Yeah. So, as the war developed then, none of the raids would have a direct route to the target. So in your day initially, what was the state then?
GM: Well, I suppose, I suppose so. I suppose we knew where the concentration of searchlights were, but I don’t know. Later on in the war, you not only had different streams of bombers but you had dummy streams which 214 Squadron did, we set off on spoofs, half a dozen Fortresses charring out Window
CB: Right. Yeah
GM: To simulate five hundred bombers, that was quite important, quite a safe job too
CB: It was safe because the Window secured the view of your aircraft, did it?
GM: Well, the night fighters were after these real streams
CB: Right
GM: And we didn’t go far into Germany, we just went across Holland and then turned back home. 214 Squadron was so lucky, so fortunate with its Fortresses, that was a stroke of gigantic luck being posted to 214 Squadron
CB: So, the crew is the same, was it? As the one [unclear] flown in
GM: The one [unclear] to 214 Squadron
CB: Pardon?
GM: We were a mixed lot, New Zealand, Peruvian. My flight engineer was called Pedro Honeyman. Obviously of Scottish descent. Didn’t keep up with any of them. We had extremely good adjutant to 214 Squadron called George Wright, what George had done before the war I do not know, but he loved being adjutant to a bomber squadron, the aircrew, he loved the aircrew and they really good for us, so before my ops came to an end, I said to George, when I finish, I want to go on Transport Command. [unclear] Before I got a posting to Transport Command where I finished the war. And that was before I was sent to India and North Africa. It’s interesting. George Wright was seen after the war in 1951. My wife-to-be and I were on our way to Paris and we went into the 1951 exhibition on the South Bank and who was selling tickets? George Wright. [unclear] come down for you. I went back to art school
CB: When were you demobbed? When you were demobbed?
GM: Yeah
CB: In 1946.
GM: Yeah
CB: Yeah. How long were you at art school?
GM: I did my fourth year at Edinburgh College of Arts, post diploma fifth year, then a year of travelling scholarship was six years
CB: How did you finance yourself in those days?
GM: Oh, paid for, paid for. People don’t remember but we were privileged, we got no fees at university, a grant, I had a pension, three pounds, ten schillings a week, [unclear] for ten schillings a week, so I had three quid to spend, were privileged
CB: You received an RAF pension because
GM: No
CB: Was it?
GM: I suppose it was
CB: Yes, because you started the war when it started, when, at the beginning of the war
GM: Yeah, I suppose it was RAF
CB: So, in that context, you weren’t VR, were you? You were RAF
GM: I was RAF VR
CB: Oh, you were VR
GM: Yeah
CB: Right
GM: I’ve got the four-volume history of Bomber Command
CB: Yeah
GM: Which you really ought to know
CB: I’ll just stop there for a mo. Yes. The History of Bomber Command
GM: Harris, he is in this book
CB: Did he?
GM: Oh yes
CB: Noble Frankland, and who is the other chap?
GM: Sir Charles Webster
CB: Yes
GM: They’re both historians. Yes, you promised me your book, your [unclear] for it
CB: I shall put, I shall get hold of it, cause these are really important and this links together with your testimony
GM: You [unclear] and your job, you must have it
CB: I do, yes, need it. They’ve got it at Lincoln.
GM: Have they?
CB: Yeah
GM: It’ll be in the university library
CB: Yes
GM: Or it should be
CB: Yeah. Well, we’ll check actually as you come to ask. Can I just go back
GM: I was once in publishing so I can get things at cost
CB: Ah, right. Can I go back to your comments about 15 Squadron? You said that the crew effectively lived in fear all the time, the fear of being shot down or the fear of the aircraft not performing?
GM: No, the fear of not coming back.
CB: Right.
GM: I think that was general, the morale was low
CB: Yes
GM: When morale is low, you lose confidence
CB: Yes. And what was the RAF doing about it in your perspective?
GM: Nothing
CB: Right
GM: Nothing
CB: And what was the squadron commander doing to get together?
GM: Nothing
CB: Right
GM: Nor the Wing Commander. Everyone was tainted
CB: Yeah
GM: In my recollection. The crew I trained with, what’s the name of that place?
CB: At Wyton, oh, at Bassingbourn
GM: Bassingbourn
CB: Yes. On the Wellingtons
GM: Two pilots, flight engineer, navigator and bomb, gunners, I trained the guy called Metaxi, M-E, M-A
CB: Yeah
GM: So, when we got to Wyton a line was drawn under MA and I went as second pilot to an established crew,
CB: On Stirlings
GM: Metaxi crew went to a newly promoted captain, he had no training with the new captain, they disappeared on their first op, the first op, no training, Pierce, group captain wing commander, why? Of course they went down on their first op, they didn’t know each other. That was my introduction to operational flying. Nobody mentioned it.
CB: No. And in the ops in those days, you went off as individual crews, you said, rather than in any kind of orderly fashion. What was the process of finding the target?
GM: Looking at the ground [laughs].
CB: In the dark?
GM: What you could see.
CB: At what height were you flying in the Stirling?
GM: As high as you could go. Which was sixteen, seventeen
CB: On a god day
GM: Right down to twenty. Oh, what a business.
CB: And how did you, when you returned, you were debriefed by the intelligence officer, were you?
GM: Yes, yes.
CB: And what would you have to tell him?
GM: [unclear] we always thought we bombed the target of course [unclear] the first target I properly identified was Cologne, the thousand bomber raid,
CB: And at that stage you were at the HCU. At that stage you were at the HCU, weren’t you? For the thousand bomber raid
GM: Yes, yes, yes
CB: Yeah
GM: Little diversion from training
CB: Yes
GM: The following day you, circuits and landings, circuits and landings again, I don’t know how many landings I did in the Stirling, it must be ten to hundreds
CB: How did you feel about the student pilot flying it?
GM: Oh, they all arrived in a state of great anxiety, the Stirling had a very bad reputation and so the first thing you did was to show them what it was in the air and then the New Zealanders, Australians, South Africans, all nationalities, the most democratic outfit Bomber Command became, I wouldn’t have missed it
CB: What was the most exciting experience you had on operations or in the HCU?
GM: Well, the most dangerous experience I had was five hours in icing cloud trying to get to Hamburg in which 1651 Unit lost four out of nine aircraft in one night through weather and that was touch and go in cumulus cloud.
CB: So the icing cloud should never have been entered but how was it
GM: We should never have set off
CB: Exactly
GM: Again it was a cock-up and no one of course was never held responsible but to lose four out of nine is quite a shock. But the following day, take off and landings, take off and landings
CB: So that goes back to the point about debriefing, there was a met man who did part of the briefing, was there?
GM: That, the North Sea was [unclear] of clouds and of course we dropped the odd bomb to try and get more height, couldn’t and that was just flying skill to survive that night and one of the survivors was Frazer Barron, to finish that was nineteen ops, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar, he lost his life later on of course, he was smaller than me, so how he could get the rudder bar I don’t know. Frazer Barron, one of the so-called Barron
CB: Barn Brothers
GM: Barnel Barnes [unclear]
CB: So, when the crew went back to 15 Squadron, you talked about the low morale, in the off-duty times what happened, what did people do? Cause you are all NCOs in the aircraft, are you? At that stage
GM: We did nothing. After time boring, there was no overall intelligence trying to further our training as bomber aircrew, it’s just, it was, the whole thing was inept. You know, we were losing the war like mad
CB: And what were the senior officers doing?
GM: I never saw them, I was in the sergeant’s mess. I mean, we arrived at Wyton by train, a bus from the station to the airfield, no welcome, put into such and such a fight, didn’t meet the flight commander, no one would tell you hello, this is 15 Squadron, this is what we do, we just arrived, oh, dear, oh dear, that was bad, it was shocking [unclear]
CB: Wyton was an expansion period airfield, so what was the accommodation like?
GM: Nissen hut. We took off from Alconbury, Wyton had no runways, so we flew the aircraft at Alconbury where it was bombed up, and then we went back to [unclear] and got briefly briefed at Wyton and then bus to the station light. I remember the bus going through Huntingdon, people going about their business, going into pubs and so on, where am I going?
CB: Yeah
GM: 21 squadron was quite different cause the war had been going on for years by that time, September 1943, Stirlings would have been taken off German targets, again the luck I had, being posted to a Stirling squadron cause they were being withdrawn and then we heard this extraordinary rumour going on [unclear] and the rumour proved to be true till, we got an American pilot with half a dozen landings and off we went solo, captain of a Fortress, throat microphone, all up to date
CB: Yes
GM: Electric flying suit, all up to date, American
CB: The whole crew had the electric flying suit, did they?
GM: I don’t know about the crew, I took the crew for granted. I hadn’t a warrant officer, my navigator was a flying officer and that was my two fingers up to the system, you see and it didn’t last long, I was a commissioned officer within weeks
CB: We’ll stop now. How often did you get hit?
GM: Once, oh, well, the aircraft got hit more than once of course
CB: Did it?
GM: I got hit personally once, over Leverkusen
CB: Oh.
GM: To an [unclear] squadron to Leverkusen to [unclear] as a souvenir, one of the aircraft came home with shrapnel quite often
CB: So what was the wound that you experienced?
GM: It was?
CB: What wound did you get?
GM: I didn’t get wounded, didn’t even draw blood. Spent shrapnel upper left arm. Colossal braw. If I hadn’t been strapped in, I’d be off my seat.
CB: Was the explosion in the aircraft or just outside?
GM: No, the shrapnel, piece of shrapnel. Flak
CB: Did that hit you hard?
GM: Flak I suppose.
CB: Yeah
GM: Didn’t even draw blood. The arm was swollen of course
CB: Yeah
GM: And that was nothing
CB: What about other members of the crew, did they get?
GM: Nothing
CB: Nobody
GM: No. A nasty surprise flying along in the black, suddenly shrapnel [unclear], flak and this enormous bash which as I say, would have got me out of my seat but for being strapped in
CB: Amazing. This was in the Fortress, was it? Or in the Stirling?
GM: Probably Fortress.
CB: There was a bigger crew in the Fortress, so?
GM: Yes.
CB: That was more gunners.
GM: The Fortress crew
CB: Right
GM: [unclear]
CB: Have a look at that. So, with the Fortress, you, the Americans flew with two pilots but you flew with one pilot in the Fortress in the RAF fashion
GM: Yes, yes. They flew by day, of course
CB: Yes
GM: What the Americans did was remarkable I mean, seeing them go down, we saw them going down in darkness
CB: Yeah. Did you get any planes exploding next to you?
GM: There were things, in Bomber Command we believed in a thing called Scarecrows
CB: Ah, yes
GM: Have you heard this word?
CB: Yes
GM: But there were no such things, they were actual aircraft and we kidded ourselves, another Scarecrow and some could be very close
CB: So, the Scarecrow notionally was an enormous shell when actually it was a German fighter firing upwards with Schrage Musik
GM: [unclear] bomber going down in flames
CB: Yeah
GM: But mercifully we didn’t know. I was never attacked by a night fighter and that may be part of the fact that wherever over dangerous territory I was endlessly weaving the aircraft, endless, to give the rear gunner [unclear] a vision of the area, a vision
CB: You did that on both aircraft
GM: Oh yes
CB: Yeah
GM: Oh yes
CB: Same technique
GM: Endless, gentle weave
CB: And how many reports of air sickness did you get from the crew?
GM: Oh, never. Weaving, that’s nothing, you don’t even know you’re doing it, didn’t know I was doing it, but it’s so far more.
CB: Yeah
GM: I’ve heard a Lancaster sitting a straight and level being shot at, not least by a member of who, by ex-member of my crew, he was shot down later on and we were attacked and the pilot froze, froze, that’s why we were shot down
CB: Froze over the target or [unclear]?
GM: Night fighter attacked, there was no evasive action team
CB: I see, right. But you were trained in the corkscrew?
GM: Oh yes
CB: And could you do the corkscrew with the Fortress or not?
GM: Yes, nothing like [unclear] nothing like this
CB: A big aeroplane
GM: Nothing like this, cleverly, let me have that logbook, thanks,
US: That’s the last, this is the first one. Is this the one you want?
CB: No, he’s just checking
US: Do you want to have a look at it now?
GM: Hey?
US: Do you want to have a look inside it?
CB: I’ll just stop there a minute.
US: [unclear] Air Force for you.
GM: We flew an aircraft from East Anglia to Belfast
US: Right.
GM: You get a cask of Guinness for a party. When you think of the cost of that pint of Guinness
US: [unclear]
CB: Amazing. But you did need that training experience, didn’t you? Was this from the HCU or the squadron?
GM: From the squadron
CB: Yeah
GM: The things were so relaxed. I had the memory of the friend of my father’s came down from Scotland, Ed [unclear], wanted to go up in a Stirling so I just said, an aircraft needing a flight test such and such took off in fifteen minutes
CB: What was the reaction of your family to your flying as a pilot in Bomber Command?
GM: My father and I didn’t communicate, ever.
CB: And you mother’s reaction wouldn’t be cause she
GM: Stepmother
CB: Stepmother, I meant
GM: Stepmother, no communication
CB: Right, ok. Any other members of the family you spoke to? Just stopping there again. Because your father had been in the trenches.
GM: Yeah, I mean Bomber Command is admired beyond reason, the worst that could happen was five minutes in [unclear] alive going down, think of the trenches, think of my father survived after three years in the trenches compared to what I had, Bomber Command was lucky. We lived well
CB: Yeah
GM: You know, it’s over exalted but easy, easier, the troops after the invasion going up through Holland far, far worse than Bomber Command was. I didn’t see a dead body. My father not only saw dead bodies, he saw the remains all around for years, no wonder he didn’t speak about it. Bomber Command too much talk saving your presence. No, it wasn’t all that difficult, it wasn’t.
CB: Now, when you went to 214, you had a completely different crew there,
GM: Yeah
CB: Because you’d come from the HCU
GM: I inherited a crew
CB: Oh, did you? Right, so how well did they gel together?
GM: After
US: You know, I can’t remember
CB: Anyway, professionally as a crew
GM: There was a romantic tosh spoken about Bomber Command crews how they gelled, how they drank together, how they did this together, how they did that, I suspect in many cases that just wasn’t true, wasn’t true in my case
CB: But it also varied, it would appear depending on whether it was an entirely NCO crew or a mixed commissioned NCO crew, in terms of them socialising.
GM: No, in my experience, socialising went on between commissioned and non-commissioned, there was no sense of division. No, no, Bomber Command was very democratic, a great mixture of people, no, no, there was no bullshit. No, no, none. I remember one parade, I can’t remember where, there was no discipline, in my experience, there was self
CB: Self-regulation
GM: Self-engendered discipline, there was no bullshit, no, none. You did your job in the air, you were left alone. Me, when I put that Tiger Moth on the [unclear], I didn’t even get a rap on [unclear]
CB: So, when was that? When were you
GM: Waterbeach
CB: Right. So, what happened there, you borrowed it, did you?
GM: I was in the mess, I had this aircraft flying over and landing and [unclear] and I went down to the flight centre, it was the wing commander giving ATC cadets a touch of flying experience and he saw me and he said, hey, Mackie, you take over. Well, I’d never flown a Tiger Moth and I took over. I took off with the first cadet, flew around and landed after a, a second cadet started getting too cocky, anyway, that’s how I got to [unclear]. It was a lovely summer’s evening and I was quite excited to land, there was earth, [unclear], trees and this great big wide river, flat, not a ripple on its surface, inviting, irresistible, I did a perfect landing, tail down
CB: Yeah. Who was in the back?
GM: I was on the front. I think, we passed over the back, we got to the surface and he was saying, do you mind, look at my dress to dance tomorrow! And I said, you shut up! So and so, I got worries of my own now, the wing commander’s aeroplane
CB: So, were you actually practising an emergency landing or did you feel that you
GM: No, I got in a high-speed stall
CB: So, what were you doing in your manoeuvre at the time?
GM: [unclear] trees
CB: So you were really low, you were going round the trees
GM: Breaking the law and all sorts of things
CB: That’s right
GM: But I didn’t know you had to increase the throttles, [unclear] control, high fifteen tons, you’re supposed to increase the engine revs
CB: Right. In the Tiger Moth
GM: Cocky
CB: But you would have had to do it in the Magister anyway
GM: I don’t remember doing high speeds, [unclear] the Magister
CB: No? So what was the attraction in the river?
GM: The flatness
US: Yeah
CB: But the people, what about the people in the river?
GM: They [unclear] spectacle
CB: So you were busy just
GM: You’re alright? You’re alright? I said, yes, I’m alright, [unclear] job trying to get the parachute on board the, onto dry land, the weight of it [unclear] water
CB: And they helped you pull the plane into the side as well?
GM: No, the plane was just right in the middle of the river, I was completely submerged
CB: And what was the result of this then?
GM: Not, no, nothing happened. I was a confident Stirling pilot, that was the important thing
CB: Right
GM: This, the Tiger Moth just an aberration
CB: So the wing commander said
GM: Nothing. He wasn’t even crossed
CB: And your logbook said
GM: [unclear] somewhere, he was a very good man, he was the best wing commander I ever had, I had some poor wing commanders, he was particularly good, he was called Menaul and he finished up in charge of atomic bombing tests in the South Pacific just after the war and he lived quite near to where my elder daughter lives and she kept on saying, why don’t you look him up? And I kept on saying, no, no, and I wish I had. M-E-N-A-U-L, he’s a good man. I had the worst commander in 214 Squadron called McGlinn M-C-G-L-I-N-N, he didn’t take to me, part because I was a warrant officer I think and froze the normal distances of promotion and once the aircrew were altogether for a talk by him and he suddenly, said, Mackie, what does that mean? And he pronounced a long German word, you know, a multi syllable, multi [unclear] and I said, I don’t know, Sir, and I hope I never do, the squadron erupted. This is still a German prisoner of war camp name, I said what? Anyway, that was my come up and stand up to the wing commander. No, he wasn’t a good type.
CB: So, you reached warrant officer and then when you went to the HCU, you were still a warrant officer, were you?
GM: I became warrant officer at Waterbeach, yes
CB: At the HCU
GM: Not automatic [unclear], sergeant, flight sergeant, warrant officer,
CB: Yeah
GM: A good rank, taken miles
CB: Absolutely
GM: Have you heard that expression?
CB: Yeah
GM: Doesn’t exist [unclear] expression
CB: No. And your commissioning took place when you joined two, joined at 214?
GM: Having more than doubled the hours than any other pilot on the squadron then and the [unclear] ranking, it was this to the system, it was meant to be, I’d finished the war as [unclear] there was anything left [unclear] but they made me take commission
CB: Was McGlinn, this, this CO, was he part of
GM: The station commander intervened
CB: Ah!
GM: He saw, he told me, you’re taking commission, Mackie, which I knew was inevitable and [unclear] didn’t have to ask for it
CB: So what was the process that you went through for that?
GM: Nothing. A new uniform and that was it
CB: But they took you off somewhere for a briefing, did they? Or selection?
GM: I got five minutes
CB: Ah, right
GNM: At Mildenhall
CB: What did they have, a board of assessors?
GM: No, no, just one man, [unclear] after all be all the way as Mildenhall and all the way back for this formality, out of the comedy, tragicomedy
CB: So there you had the opportunity to move into the officer’s mess
GM: I had to and the airfield we shared with an American squadron and the first formal dinner evening took place, when I say formal, peacetime thing, towards the end of the war [unclear], towards the end of the German ascendancy and being the most junior officer, I had to give the royal toast and the toast to his, the president of the United States of America, not a single ring of having lost my [unclear] morale. No, there is one thing I want to emphasize, it was easy
CB: An easy war for you
GM: Easy war, an easy war for most of the crew, if you got shot down, five minutes. I mean, think about it, that’s quite a good way to go, five minutes.
CB: Did you come across Guinea pigs, who’d been burned?
GM: Yeah
CB: And how did they take to flying after being Guinea pigs?
GM: Well, I don’t know, I mean, well actually, I knew them, I met them, I saw them, never knew them personally
CB: Right
GM: But that was extreme. If you got killed, you got killed, in a burning aircraft, you know, you are going down. You see, in 15 Squadron, going out seven, half a dozen aircraft, one missing, that’s quite a lot of proportion, week after week, one again, one again, one again, one again.
US: It is here, Tiger Moth [laughs]
GM: Of course, nobody knew at the beginning of the war. Bomber Command did no night flying in peacetime
CB: No. Were your original ops with 15 Squadron in daylight or were they always at night?
GM: There were two daylight ops on Northern France with Spitfires and Hurricanes, protection. That was so-called circuses, supposed to engender combat between our fighters and their fighters, they never materialised, it’s a waste of time
CB: And how did you feel like flying in daylight bombing on a, in a Stirling?
GM: Well, glad that I missed it. By that time the RAF had learned the sense of not flying by day over Germany
CB: No
GM: To begin with, we thought we could do it with impunity, flying in formations of Wellingtons or, what’s the other aircraft?
CB: Or in Blenheims
GM: Blenheims. 50 percent loss, time after time, sheer incompetence, wasted for nothing, peacetime air force, but by [unclear] what a transformation in 1944, target could be identified and destroyed, terrifying, pinpointed by Mosquitoes, TIs, target indicators, and the [unclear] watching, watching, doing nothing
CB: So in your two and four, flying your B-17 Fortresses, what was the activity going on in your aircraft?
GM: I don’t know, I didn’t know, yeah, I took no interest
CB: What was it supposed to be doing?
GM: Jamming control, jamming communication between ground control and German night fighters, that was one thing, we carried a German speaking wireless op and in a minute he got on to this German night fighter frequency, he jammed it, I believe but there were other, we carried a [unclear] radar which is one reason why operational flying was so infrequent, it was the [unclear] in the world and constantly tinkering new this, new that, but it was so complex, I wasn’t interested. I was interested in one thing, survival.
CB: And these German speaking operators, did they tend to be of foreign origin or were they?
GM: They were German.
CB: On the aircraft?
GM: Yes. But I, when I looked back I missed, actually I should have been more interested in what they were and how they came to be aircrew in the RAF, they were perfect German speakers, I believe. Pedro Honeyman, how did he come to England from Peru? And no one charged him. Cause Honeyman is a Scottish name
CB: He was a signaller, was he? He was a signaller.
GM: He was my flight engineer
CB: Oh, flight engineer.
GM: We all smoked of course, like chimneys
CB: In the aircraft?
GM: Coming back, yes, once you’re over water, down to a thousand feet, open the window, switch off the oxygen, first cigarette, oh, the bliss, the bliss of that first cigarette
CB: So, for non-smokers, explain please what, why it was such an important thing
GM: Well, salvation,
US: You’re a non-smoker.
GM: You were over the North Sea, you’re at two thousand feet, in half an hour you can see the flashing beacons, you’re safe, you survived, you’re off the scaffold, that was why, and the nicotine in the blood stream. Oh, I was a confirmed smoker. I regret having, had to give it up, but I wish I hadn’t. My father smoked forty a day until his late eighties when he died. He had the right answer. Were you an ex-smoker?
CB: No.
GM: You’re both non-smokers?
US: I smoke
GM: What’s that? Pack?
US: Rolling.
GM: You’re rolling [unclear]. Oh yes, so did I. I used to have brown paper, cigarette papers, I’ve [unclear]
CB: What made you start smoking? Did you start because of the flying?
GM: No, before the war I started.
CB: Right. And what made you give up?
GM: Oh, slow asphyxiation. [unclear] for five before the war, the day’s ration. [sighs] Well, Chris
CB: So you, that’s really good. We’ll stop for a bit.
GM: Yeah. Fifty percent of Bomber Command aircrew died for nothing. There’s no way of proving it but that’s my feeling.
CB: Do you mean particularly in the early days, do you mean? Because it was so disorganised
GM: Yes, but it extended into the, towards the end of the war, how many aircrew did damage to Germany? One [unclear]. I’d have had been killed, the damage I had affected on Germany was minimal, minimal, at what expense?
CB: Well, in your two and four days with the Fortresses, you weren’t carrying any munitions, so any bombs.
GM: Were not very successful,
CB: Oh
GM: It was a colossal enterprise involving fighter squadrons, Halifaxes, Fortresses, but it never did enough damage, I suppose was expected. I mean the hundred fighter squadron used to go out at night and circle German airfields
CB: The Mosquitoes, the Mosquitoes did
GM: Yes
CB: Yes
US: Interesting
CB: Interdictors
GM: And they weren’t successful, I believe. And then Transport Command, when I think about the expense, six thousand feet all the way to Germany, straight to India, four days, bed and breakfast, North Africa, bed and breakfast, Palestine, bed and breakfast, Iraq, Karachi.
CB: And what were you flying in Transport Command?
GM: Stirlings, the Mark V, an extra ten miles an hour
CB: And you wouldn’t want to get there too quickly, with all that nice hospitality on the way, did you?
GM: Oh, just a routine bed and breakfast, you know.
CB: What could the Mark V Stirling carry? What could the Mark V Stirling carry?
GM: Sixteen passengers or so much freight, a lot of postal freight, you know, letters [unclear] was abroad
CB: So, did you enjoy that, overall?
GM: Oh yes
CB: How did you come to be posted to Transport Command after 214?
GM: I’ve told you, George Wright
CB: Yes, but in the mechanism of the system, it just automatically
GM: Well, George Wright got me posted to Transport Command
CB: Yeah, as the adjutant
GM: That was it
CB: Yeah. There’d be a less smaller crew there cause you didn’t need gunners, so what did you have?
GM: Oh, navigator and flight engineer
CB: And that was it. No signaller?
GM: Wireless op, possible, you see they were going a-begging, they weren’t needed
CB: No
GM: [unclear]
CB: How did you meet your wife and when?
GM: When did I meet her?
CB: Yes
GM: I don’t know the exact date although I can recount it in detail but I shan’t
CB: [laughs]
GM: My wedding was in [unclear], 1952 in the registry office in Scarborough, cost five quid, got back to Edinburgh that same day, that was the beginning of our marriage
CB: Where did you meet her in the first place?
GM: Edinburgh College of Arts
CB: Edinburgh College of Arts, right. After the war, in other words.
GM: Oh yes, oh yes,
CB: Yeah
GM: ’48 or ’49, the best thing I ever did.
CB: And how many children have you got? How many children do you have?
GM: Two daughters.
CB: Right. Local?
GM: Two daughters, two granddaughters, two great granddaughters. I don’t want any competition [laughs]. Let the name Mackie die
CB: And no brothers or sisters of yours? You have no brother or sister yourself?
GM: Well, no, my mother died after my birth
CB: Cause you were the first child, right
GM: And my stepmother had no children
CB: We’ll stop there. Post-war, what career did you follow?
GM: Well, I taught in a college of art for some years, I free-lanced, I became royal designer for industry, designing books for Edinburgh University Press, I am a member of the Royal Scottish Society of Painters and Water Colour, and now, I don’t know, that’s about it.
CB: So, how did you get down here, in Stamford?
GM: Retirement. Driving from London to Aberdeen, I took the wrong turn at Millhill roundabout, six bloody [unclear], following the A25, and then the A1, and Aberdeen seemed a long way away, roundabout, roundabout, roundabout. I came to a sign saying, Stamford, one mile and so help me. I turned off. [unclear] this is a wartime thing, I don’t know, a monumental thing to do, because it changed my life. The entry into Stamford from the south is the finest entrance to any town that I know.
CB: Yeah, past Burghley.
GM: It’s Extraordinary
CB: Yeah
GM: The George Hotel. So I kept on coming back and found a slum, I’ll let you see what it was like
CB: When is this, 1980?
GM: Yes
CB: Ah, right. It had just been neglected
GM: Completely
CB: Yeah
US: Of course, it’s a lovely building
CB: And you said it was affected by a fire behind it
GM: Oh, that was later on
CB: Ah
GM: When I saw it, I saw [unclear]. The fact is I made it. In Aberdeen I had a wonderful house with twenty, how many years? Twenty-four years there. Wonderful, wonderful. When it came to selling, it was valued forty eight. I said, nonsense, it’s worth seventy. I got in a week [laughs]. Forty-eight to seventy in 1980. And a bloody Scotch lawyer charges a thousand pounds for the convenience for half an hour’s work.
CB: That was a bit much, wasn’t it?
US: Yeah
GM: I had an interviewer here and told him what I thought, he said, I’ve never been spoken like this before, I said, well, it’s high time.
CB: Quite right.
GM: Bugger
CB: Yes
GM: A thousand pounds, in 1980
CB: That was a hell of a lot of money
GM: I mean, I sold it, I did the ad, I did the interviewing, I said, excessive, five hundred, even that, [unclear] enough, that’s a long time ago but still rankles
CB: Yeah
GM: Scotch avarice
CB: Quite right. But you never got the
GM: Anyway, then I could buy this and do tens of thousands of pounds on the house, new electricity, new walling, new this, new that, new [unclear], and it’s been a wonderful house for the family and [unclear] buggered up all went downhill
CB: When your wife became ill
GM: The worst possible conclusion. God, if he exists, is a master sadist. Oh, gentlemen, can I offer you anything now?
CB: I haven’t had anybody else criticize Bomber Command
GM: You haven’t?
CB: No. But that partly for the reason perhaps that you mentioned earlier which is that you were there right at the beginning, when Bomber Command was in a powerless state, and the leadership clearly, from what you said, was lacking severely. The bit I forgot to ask you about because it links quite well with the early comments you made about lack of morale, because this comes out of it in a way, what about LMF?
GM: Oh dear, LMF, how these initials frightened us. We didn’t quite know what it was all about, very effective
CB: Was it?
GM: Oh very, frightening words, frightening initials, and partially frightening because we didn’t quite know what it was. I only came across one [unclear], a commissioned officer, commissioned RAR cause he trained with me this man, the majority of us became sergeants, he became a pilot officer, [unclear] in a flying boat [unclear] blew a tool off and he had a history of early retirements
CB: A pilot?
GM: Pilot
CB: Yeah
GM: I never saw him again.
CB: Do you know where they sent him?
GM: He just vanished. But that was LMF. Poor man, is he still alive? The memory will be constant, he should have died.
CB: Yeah
GM: And of course, LMF was designed to make sure you died rather than anything else
US: That was on the doorbell
GM: Ah, thank you.
CB: What would you say it did to the, what effect did it have on the crew?
GM: Made them bloody sad, they wouldn’t be LMF. Tell me what lack of moral fiber, cowardice
US: Right
GM: Frightening initials. Till today
CB: Sure
GM: That was crude but that was effective and so unfair, it could [unclear] that someone that had done almost a tour and impact in, you know, he proved himself time and time and time again and you’d have reached the end of his [unclear] but LMF had no respect for that kind of achievement, oh, is cruel. We never talked about it. Never talked about it, never mentioned it. You must have found this is the constant in your interviews.
CB: Yes, I have, had a number of people talk about it
GM: Not mention saying what was mentioned
CB: Right, so, it’s been mentioned, yes, by several people
GM: Yeah
CB: And the effect on the crew
GM: Yeah
CB: Because it’s very unsettling
GM: Yeah
CB: And also the deterrent effect, the objective of deterrence
GM: It worked
CB: Yeah
GM: Yeah. Oh God, I’d have died rather than being labelled LMF, oh quite clearly
CB: So, he was commissioned and vanished but what was your perception of what would happen to the sergeants, if they were?
GM: What?
CB: What would happen to the sergeants if they were labelled LMF?
GM: They were stripped of rank of course and just vanished; I suppose. Anyway, I don’t know what happened to the commissioned officer, whether he was uncommissioned or I don’t know. The whole thing’s a mystery.
CB: Yeah
GM: Well, is it Chris?
CB: Yeah
GM: Sorry
CB: It’s alright.
GM: Well, you promised me that you will get access to these four volumes
CB: Yes, absolutely
GM: It’s not the easiest of reading but it’s right up your street
CB: Oh yes, it is
GM: There’s a whole appendix, giving the details about how many bombs fell [unclear] explode for instance [unclear]
CB: Yeah
GM: The bombs were inefficient
CB: Yeah
GM: So many things were incompetent
CB: Yeah. It’s not as though it was new because they had a very high failure rate in the First World War
GM: Yes
CB: Of bombs and shells
GM: My father never once asked me about Bomber Command, very most peculiar, I envy sons who had a good relationship with their fathers,
CB: What was the main stumbling block would you say?
GM: Well, losing his wife when he did, that buggered him, buggered him. Small town [unclear], like his father before him, like his grandfather before him and I would have been the starter, if the tractor hadn’t come, the tractor saved me.
CB: What did the tractor do?
GM: Made [unclear] redundant, no horses, mean this [unclear] two or three [unclear] all gone
US: All gone
GM: My hometown is like, Stamford, you know, agricultural market town. Have you always lived in Stamford, nearby the airfields? [laughs]
CB: In the dark
GM: Yeah, training
CB: Right
GM: Waterbeach, we were sent to other airfields, you see, and I [unclear] all apologetic but five miles apart the circuits overlapping
CB: But it must have been quite difficult, how did you, coming back from an operation or any sortie, how did you identify your airfield in the dark?
GM: Well, the flashing beacons, the Germans knew them all, out, you know, two initials, they never changed, the Germans must have known them all. And the three searchlights intersecting at two thousand feet all over the place, oh God it was a, what a performance! What [unclear]!
CB: So every, when you returned, there was always the searchlight on,
GM: Oh yes
CB: Unless the Germans had followed the bomber stream in
GM: Oh yes, and that should help from the German point of view, why they didn’t do that more often? What an advantage to have their fighters come across
CB: It could’ve been a turkey shoot
GM: It would’ve been a massive one. And they did it, well, they did it, when I was training the Wellingtons it happened once and it scared the daylights out of me, trying to learn to fly and at the same time, knowing there is an enemy aircraft around. Bassinbourn?
CB: Yeah. So if
GM: They missed a great opportunity
CB: If there was a known interdictor, intruder, what did the airfields do, they turned off their lights, did they?
GM: Oh yes.
CB: Then, what did that leave you with?
GM: That never happened to me. No, there was no trouble getting home, I mean, finding one’s way, I mean
CB: Because of all these lights
GM: Oh, the, and you had the radio beams and things, you know
CB: Yes
GM: I took no interest in, QDEM or something
CB: Yeah, did you have DREM lighting as well? The DREM lighting round the airfield?
GM: Yes, of course, I suppose so
CB: They do
GM: Round again that was nothing, I mean, you know, running at night, night flying was easy, it wasn’t difficult, above the weather
CB: And fog?
GM: As [unclear] it is, pilots, well, they know pilots, I when I was in an aircraft going to Boston one day, [unclear] stupid, so I wrote a wee note to the captain, I said, my last flight was from Gibraltar to Lyneham, sixteen passengers, height six thousand feet, and [unclear] speed a hundred and seventy five, can I come up to see you in your office? So the attendant sent up study staring into his cockpit
CB: Ah, this is on a 747
GM: Was it? I don’t know what the hell that was. Anyway, there was a vibration, you couldn’t see a bloody thing and they are all rushing but half a dozen of them, I thought, this isn’t flying, nor is it, we flew through the weather
CB: Yeah
GM: Christ, we, I was flying, you were actually controlling the bloody thing. It was good, you were doing something.
CB: God!
GM: You were in control.
CB: Yes
GM: It was responsive.
CB: How much did you use the auto-pilot on your aircraft?
GM: What you had to do, it was a chore. Invaluable. That night, when I survived the icing cloud, that was thanks to the link trainer, there’s a record at the back of the books somewhere
CB: Of the amount you did on link trainer?
GM: Yeah
CB: But on the aircraft itself, on the Stirling, did they have an automatic pilot?
GM: Oh yes
CB: They did?
GM: I never used it, at least I did in Transport Command, but not over Germany, ever
CB: Because you were always weaving
GM: For a fraction of a second, you know, [unclear]. But the thing is, Bomber Command was never on air, [unclear] my father’s trench war
CB: Yeah
GM: It was boring, can you imagine spending eight hours most of which when nothing was happening, eight bloody hours, Stettin and back, nothing happened, what a bore, all the bombers over over valued because it was dramatic. What the trips, after the raids above Holland, 1944, is undramatic compared to what happened in the air, so Bomber Command was overvalued. Which is why you’re here.
CB: Flying a B-17, how was that different from flying the Stirling?
GM: You couldn’t Make the bloody thing maneuver, it didn’t want to, it just wanted to stay straight and level, which was its job
CB: Yes, absolutely
GM: I mean, the Americans, the Air Force, they didn’t fuck around
CB: No
GM: They [unclear] straight and level
CB: In daylight
GM: Flew it all in daylight, my word, that’s bravery
CB: Absolutely
GM: That’s bravery. Oh yes, we had it easy
CB: And
GM: We had it easy, too much a cream,
CB: And simple comforts on the
GM: All sheets of a kind [unclear] breakfast, drink, cigarettes,
CB: In the Fortress
GM: No, in the Air Force
CB: OH, I see, yes, right, in the,
GM: [unclear]
CB: On the ground, yeah
GM: And too much prestige, too much
CB: In the war
GM: Too much
CB: Yeah
GM: No [unclear], too much. I mean, think what a submarine is like compared to what we did, bloody weeks in the air compared to a submarine, we did a few hours then we were all back to civilisation, so we are overvalued, overestimated. It took me a long time to work this out, I’m convinced of it now
CB: It’s unusual for people to have done more than two, one tour, you did two and then a third one.
GM: No, I did less than two. I did forty-four ops
CB: In total
GM: Supposed to be fifty. I came back from a spoof, nothing, and the wing commander said, Mackie, not [unclear], he’d been a [unclear], Mackie, you’re finished. That’s it, [unclear], I’ll never forget, completely, Mackie, you’re finished
CB: George Mackie, thank you very much indeed for a most interesting conversation
GM: Thank you for coming
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with George Mackie
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-12-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AMackieGA171222
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:39:10 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
George Mackie served in the RAF as a pilot. He flew forty-four operations, fifteen as a second pilot. Was posted to 15 Squadron in 1941 and critically examines the state of Bomber Command at the time. He was posted for eighteen months to RAF Waterbeach where he flew three operations and took part at the thousand bomber operation to Cologne. Describes the Stirling, its characteristics and performance and compares it to the Flying Fortress. Remembers being hit once by anti-aircraft fire over Leverkusen but without being seriously injured. Was then posted to 214 Squadron, where he flew on Flying Fortresses. At the end of the war, was transferred to Transport Command as an adjutant. Talks about low morale among the aircrew and mentions Scarecrow shells. Remembers his most frightening experience when he flew for five hours in an icing cloud on the way to Hamburg.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Cambridgeshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
15 Squadron
1651 HCU
214 Squadron
aircrew
B-17
bombing
bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942)
fear
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
lack of moral fibre
memorial
Oxford
perception of bombing war
pilot
RAF Cranfield
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Wyton
Scarecrow
searchlight
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/912/11154/PKingJ1701.1.jpg
b4aa4fba71c1c25ac700f1c5ae5071d5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/912/11154/AKingJ-L170905.2.mp3
b13c2fca6893d04645fc952046d30107
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
King, Joan
J King
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Joan King and Linda King about Edward Frederick John King (1320799 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner from RAF Scampton.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-09-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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King, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CM: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Claire Monk. The interviewees are Joan King, and also present in the room are Linda
LK: Yes
CM: And Sandra Bisset. The interview is taking place at Joan’s home on Tuesday the 5th of September 2017.
JK: He wasn't very old when I was younger than him as well [laughs]
CM: That's good. So can you tell me where were you born?
JK: Lincoln
CM: In Lincoln?
JK: Yeah
CM: Where did you meet Eddie? Where did you meet Eddie?
JK: Where did I?
CM: Where did you meet your husband?
JK: Oh in the town I think on the bombers, he was on the bombers I think he, he couldn't dance between that he met me in a dancehall because that's where I was dancing and he met us when we were all going home [laughs] that's all I can tell you and he couldn't dance but he learned after he [unclear] met me [laughs]
CM: Sounds like fun. What, was he in the Air Force at that time?
JK: Oh he was only, only a sergeant I think yeah, yeah
CM: Yeah
JK: He was a sergeant for a long time
CM: Nothing wrong with that
JK: Most of them were yeah
CM: What role was he doing then, what was his job?
JK: It was on the bombers, going out to bomb the Germans all the time right through the war yeah
CM: Did he?
JK: Yeah, night after night after night yeah and he still kept coming back [laughs], plenty of them didn't but he did yeah, yeah
CM: Can
JK Wasn’t very old, he was then, it wasn't like long after 18 when he joined. I didn't know him then, I didn't know him until later on, yeah. But he was all on the bombers all the time but that's what they were all doing, all the young chaps here then, yeah
CM: Can you?
JK: He was at Scampton and that was a very busy drome, always was and that's where all the raids used to be going from, more than ever yeah. Scampton was very busy, dromes all the way around but he was on, [unclear] on Scampton most of the time he had to go on and to learn somewhere of course, to train you know, but he was at Scampton most of the time yeah. I can't remember what his position was when he finished can you?
LK: He was a pilot officer
JK: Well it
LK: Wasn't he?
JK: Yeah
LK: And he was
JK: Well yeah
LK: He did, he was in
JK: [unclear] what the next step
LK: He was, I don't know mum, he was in
JK: It’s such a long time ago
LK: He was a mid-upper gunner, wasn't he?
JK: Sorry?
LK: He was a mid-upper gunner
JK: Yeah, yeah but
LK: On the Lancasters yeah
JK: I can’t think, [unclear] position but what he was called. Yeah. Oh, never mind I’ll have to look for something I’ll go and have another look in the drawer see if I can find anything
CM: Okay
JK: [unclear] then [laughs]
CM: Can you tell me what was a, an average day like when you were at Scampton? What was is
JK: I wasn't at Scampton
CM: No Eddie was, what was
JK: That was
CM: Can you
JK: I didn’t live at Scampton, I was still living at home
CM: So you
JK: I didn’t go with him?
CM: [unclear] Lincoln?
JK: Yeah. No, I didn't live at Scampton
CM: Can you
JK: He was boarded at Scampton, but he wasn't there all the time, he was I think two or three different places, but it was the Scampton when he was on the bombers all the time yeah, yeah. I can't tell you any more than that
CM: That's fine
JK: But it was only what was he, 18 when, it, it was a bit, they sent him home cause he was, he applied to be, when he was too young I remember his mother said, they sent him home and she let him go back again when he was ready he went yeah, he was only just old enough to go into the forces yeah, yeah. That's such a long time ago [laughs] yeah
CM: Did he tell you about what happened each flight?
JK: Oh no, they didn’t used to do that, no. They didn’t used to discuss what they’d done or where they, no it wasn't like that. You were just pleased to see them back that's all [laughs] yeah yeah, they should just go and enjoy themselves that's all yeah
CM: Fantastic
JK: I can't tell you a lot more than that
CM: You're fine, you're doing brilliantly. Linda
JK: A long time ago
CM: Linda said
JK: I wasn't very old myself then
CM: Linda says he was mentioned in dispatches, what was that for?
JK: Mentioned?
CM: In dispatches what was it for, can you remember?
JK: Linda?
CM: No, Linda said Eddie was mentioned in dispatches, your plaque on that
JK: I couldn't, I couldn't give you any more details on that, if Linda hasn’t got it, I haven't got it no
CM: Not a problem
JK: Because when they were, when they were kids were looking after them as they were older, I let them take what they wanted you see
CM: Yeah
JK: But she hasn't got it nobody's got it, I can tell you
CM: Not the problem
JK: Because none of the lads were very old when they went in [laughs]
CM: Did he always fly with the same people?
JK: Uhm, no, not always but they'd go for quite a while and then they'd have a rest and they'd be posted away and then while the war was still on, then they sent them back with another one and they did that twice but he wasn't very old when he joined you see, yeah, yeah. Oh, he did a fair share. There's not much more I can tell you really
CM: Do
JK: I don't know what Linda thinks she'll find I’m sure I’ve got [unclear] an awful lot now. Well in the war, I mean things used to get lost anyway where they used to, when they were looking after them themselves, they might not find them when they wanted them, you know and that sort of thing. He wasn't very old himself
CM: Where did you
JK: But he did two tours, he did a whole tour and then he’d come off for a rest and he came back and he was posted back in Lincoln and then he went on and he sent him on a second tour and they survived. I mean a lot of them didn't survive yeah so that's all I can tell you he did the second tour one and then we got to the end of the war and that was it yeah. What are you looking for? You haven't got anything much, have you? What's in there then? Yeah, well
LK: This is what I, sorry,
CM: It’s ok
LK: This is what I made for you, do you remember with all of the bits?
JK: Yeah, we’ll get you there there
LK: Yeah
JK: Yeah
CM: Thank you, will have a look at [unclear] in a minute
JK: But, the information
LK: Yes
JK: I mean I can't tell you much more because he wasn't very old himself was it
LK: No, no, that’s right
JK: He wasn't old enough to join when I first met him but as soon as he was older, he was in, you know
CM: Where did you go to, where did he go after Scampton?
JK: Well then he was, uh I can't remember it’s such a long time ago now love but he was at Scampton right through the war love
LK: He went to RAF Wickenby, didn't he? From Scampton he went to RAF Wickenby
JK: Yeah but that was, he wasn't, he wasn't flying from there
LK: Yes he was, that’s where he
JK: It was at Scampton where he did all his raids
LK: Yeah but he went, he went from Wickenby
JK: He went to Wickenby for a short time, not very long
LK: Yes and that was when he was injured
JK: The war wasn't so busy then by the time he went to Wickenby
LK: Yeah
JK: He was at Scampton when he did it, when he was very young, yeah
LK: That's right yeah
JK: I can't remember what was the number of Scampton?
LK: 57 Squadron
JK: That’s right, that's it
LK: And then they, then from that
JK: You know as much as I do love
LK: Well, I just remember, don't I?
JK: Yeah
LK: Remember what you've told me in the past
JK: [unclear]
JK: Well we weren't, you weren't, kids weren't very old were you, well I mean, I don't think you were around were you?
LK: No
JK: No
LK: Not then
JK: It’s what I've told you wasn't it?
LK: Yes. Good job I’ve got a good memory. Hey
JK: Yeah. Oh well we have a lot written down, but we kept what they were didn't we?
LK: We did
JK: I'm sorry, I can't, I can't be any more help
LK: No, no, no that's all right. Claire’s been listening to what you're saying
JK: Well, I know that he was out night after night after night from Scampton what was the other one?
LK: Wickenby
JK: Wickenby, that's it, yeah
LK: Cause we went to Wickenby, didn't we, to have a look?
JK: Oh that was later, that was after it was all over, wasn’t it?
LK: Of course, yeah. But we went to see what if there was anything there, memorabilia from that time, didn't we?
JK: Yeah, but that was a long time afterwards, wasn't it?
LK: Well yeah, it's only a few years ago, wasn't it?
JK: A long time after that. You don’t go near, you couldn't get anywhere near the station when it was happening
LK: Of course not, of course not
JK: No well, he wasn't very old himself, was he?
LK; No
JK: I've found what, what is important, and I can't find anything else no. I’ve kept what I could
CM: You're doing amazingly, don't worry
JK: I was only in me early, in mid early [unclear] at the time [laughs]
LK: Yeah. Was a long time, wasn’t it?
JK: And the fact that, [unclear] wasn’t they? I don’t know what they had or anybody else then but nobody else noticed that
LK: No
SB: The boat, it was
JK: The bombers
SB: When he was in the hospital
LK: Yes
SB: Which hospital?
LK: And that I don't know, uhm
CM: Was that when he moved, they moved to London?
LK: It would’ve been in, yes yes, I think so, well they landed at Woodbridge uhm which is where all the injured aircraft went I understand
SB: Alright
LK: But as to a hospital I don't know, I wasn't, I never had that information
SB: So presumably your mum went from Lincoln down to the air, to join
LK: Yes, they got married, they didn't get married until 1947.
SB: Alright
LK: Three years after my dad was injured
SB: Right
LK: Uhm and that
JK: That was a long time
LK: Yeah and at that time uhm they were, I think you got married in Lincoln, didn't you?
JK: In what?
LK: Did you get married in Lincoln?
JK: Yes. yeah
LK: Yeah. But I think it was only because
JK: Yeah, got grandad came up here
LK: Mum's family, yeah it's only because grandma and your mum and your dad were here wasn't it? They
JK: Yeah and grandma and granddad
LK: Yes
JK: Came up
LK: Yes, they did
SB: And all the time until she’s married your mum said I’ve never unders, got my head around this backwards and forwards but over the years that I’ve spoken to her
LK: Yeah, yeah
SB: So uhm your mum lived with your grandparents on Newark Road all the time
LK: Yes
SB: Uh-huh
LK: Yes
JK: But yes, your children didn't go to school down there did you?
LK: Yeah, In London.
JK: I can’t remember that.
LK: Yes, we were living in London mum
JK: That's right yeah yeah from a time ago, I can’t remember
LK: Yeah we lived at nan and grandad's house in Hoppers Road, didn't we?
JK: Yes
LK: To begin with and then when Janet was born we moved to Carpenter Gardens in Winchmore Hill JK: Yeah, yeah
LK: And that's where we stayed until I was 16
JK: Yeah
LK: Uh 16 and a half and then we moved back up to Lincoln
JK: That's right
LK: And uhm and you lived in, you lived in Russell Street then, didn’t you?
JK: But your dad wasn't back
LK: No, no dad, dad had died, dad died in 1958
JK: ’58 was it?
LK: Yes, yeah so, he was, he was uhm 34, coming up to 35
JK: [unclear] He wasn’t very old when he went in
LK: Yeah, that's right mummy, that's right so
JK: He was on the bombers night after night after night, he was only a youngster himself yeah
SB: So after your dad died and you were all down there was it for, to family assistance that you all came back to Lincoln I presume?
LK: Uhm
SB: To support, I mean
LK: Uhm I did, I think, uhm to be honest, I think mum wanted to come back because my, her parents were getting older
JK: They only had me
LK: And they only had mum whereas my, my dad's mum and dad had, he had a sister, an older sister and a younger brother who were both still alive and lived fairly local to them
SB: Right
LK: And they died, uhm, well my nan died eight years after my dad and my grandad died ten years after my dad so
SB: Now I know on the way to church I can talk [unclear] before when I used to take, when I was taking your mum regularly to church
LK: Yeah, I remember
SB: We used to walk and drive through Newland Street West and up White hall
LK: Oh yes
SB: And she always said that that's where uhm where her dad’s mum lived
LK: Yes, that's right, Saint Faith’s Street, yes, yes Granny Cox and, yeah, that’s right
SB: I’m going off the track, it's just getting some background
LK: Yeah [laughs]
CM: I love it. It's amazing
JK: We moved a couple of times as well you see since then and since I’ve moved here, I’ve moved again, haven't I?
LK: Yes, you have, yeah that's right
SB: Presumably you ask her about the dispatches
US: Yeah, yeah, yeah
CM: What do you know about the dispatches mentioned?
LK: I don't know an awful lot that was, uhm to do with uhm when my dad was injured uhm because apparently the pilot wanted to bail out over Germany
JK: But they didn't
LK: And no and dad said, encouraged everybody and said, no we can get home, we can get home even though the plane was uhm sort of uh
SB: Damaged
LK: Damaged thank you [laughs] what word [unclear] do I want yeah, I was gonna say injured
US: [unclear]
LK: Uhm but and at the time uhm because of my dad, that everybody said the crew wise that survived that it was because of my dad encouraging them to get home
SB: Right
LK: That uhm, that they did get home and uhm and they so that's what he got mentioned in dispatches for
CM: Yeah
LK: But again
CM: Yeah
LK: Uhm his crewmates said that he should have had a medal for, for his for what he did
SB: Yes
LK: So that's and that's all I can tell you but and I know from obviously that goes back years, from what mum's told me
CM: So that was the flight that he got injured as well
LK: That was the flight he was injured on yes yeah yeah
CM: Impressive
LK: But he, he was actually to be honest he was, he was real stiff upper lip, you know just grip your teeth and get on with it type of person
JK: Well, he joined the RAF before he was 17 and he had to come out of it because he was too young
LK: Yes they told him to come back when he was old enough
JK: But presumably he was old enough and he went back again apparently, yeah
LK: Yeah
JK: So that's as far as
LK: Yes, he was anxious to do his bit
JK: Yeah, but he did lots of chores, didn’t he?
LK: Yeah well, well the um average survival rate was if you got through one tour you were lucky
JK: Night after night
LK: Yeah and I only know this because I I’ve read a lot as well and and uhm, yeah I had
JK: He used to talk to you
LK: Yes, he did but not he never really used to talk much about that, did he?
JK: I’ll never forget, he used to be standing behind his chair laughing
LK: And you, I just knew, I had a sixth sense that he wasn't very well he never said anything he just knew showed used to stand right now or sit on the arm of the chair with my arm around the back of the chair so yeah yeah
JK: [unclear] she chokes me [laughs]
LK: He thought I knew that apparently yeah, yeah, yeah. I liked to think I was always very sensitive to JK: Because I have two more young ones to look after [unclear] you say
LK: Three!
JK: No, no the others
LK: Ah, Malcolm and Janet?
JK: Yes
LK: Yeah, yes, yeah. Rob, Rob’s a year younger than I am yes.
JK: And Rob of course
LK: Yeah. That's what I said, three don't forget Rob
JK: Yeah [laughs]
LK: Yeah, don't forget Rob
JK: You're here to tell the tale
LK: Yes yeah. Yeah
SB: Are we still talking?
JK: I told you as much as I can remember
CM: You're fine
JK: if I find anything else but I’d, I can't think I’m going to
CM: You're amazing, don't worry. She said you used to go out on the lorry with him
JK: We went through a lot
LK: I did yes um and apparently, I used to go and help him with his deliveries, didn't I, when he was working for Ferguson yeah and
JK: He wasn’t very well then
LK: I remember I used to take off the delivery sheet and I remember one day we'd got the windows open and when we got to the next delivery, I couldn't find the sheet. I said oh my god and he was, he was uhm because he would’ve been in real trouble of course and he was quite upset and then I found it down the side of the seat so thank goodness but yeah yes, I did. I used to like being with him. I used to go and help him clean the car
US: Yeah
LK: On a Sunday as well yeah
JK: She’s always got [unclear] patient these days. He used to say we choked him he used to say
LK: I know, I know yeah. I just, I just knew he was ill even though I didn't if you see what I mean
JK: Yeah, yeah
LK: Just a sixth sense yeah. But anyway, there we are
JK: Well you're the one that remembered most because you're the oldest on aren’t you?
LK: Yeah that's it and I have got a good memory thankfully so
JK: Yeah. The other [unclear]
LK: At the moment [laughs]
JK: It's much, it's strange how Malcolm’s a lot like him isn't it?
LK: Malcolm looks very much like him, yes
JK: But he’s a lot like him and his wife
LK: Yes yeah yeah you've always said that
JK: He doesn't remember his dad like he's, like the other one did he say but he's a lot like him in his wife than I think yeah yeah
LK: When he was about three or four years old, he used to go out and help
JK: Have you got Malcolm much of his pictures or anything like that? I don't think so
LK: I have. You know I have
JK: Yes?
LK: Yes, cause I took all of your photographs and, and took copies of them didn't I?
JK: I wonder what Malcolm’s got then
LK: And it was me that took that one and got it framed for you with the Lancaster in the snow
JK: Yeah, yeah, yeah
LK: And then you said you'd like to get that done for Malcolm and Janet and Rob as well for, uhm for Christmas one year we got, we got yes you know
JK: Did I?
LK: Yes I got, I got them framed for you, copies and, and you paid for it
JK: Sorry [unclear]
LK: Yes, I know you, you
JK: That's all we've got to remember him, wasn't it?
LK: Yes yeah
JK: Because he wasn't very helpful for a start, was he?
LK: No
SB: He didn't have any of his badges or anything like that
LK: I think, I'm not sure, I think Malcolm might have a couple just the um standard things. I'll ask Malc for you, I'm not quite sure about that
CM: You mentioned when we were starting
JK: The only thing we've got that's written on is it that picture up here that's
LK: The dispatches when he was mentioned in dispatches, yes
JK: Yeah that's it
LK: Yes, that's right
JK: That’s all we've got doesn't it
LK: Yeah but I’ve got a feeling Malcolm’s got some badges or something off his uniform
JK: Ah, Malcolm might have, yeah
LK: Yeah yeah
CM: You mentioned when we were chatting earlier about the severity of his shoulder injury
LK: Yes
CM: Did that cause him, uhm, did they manage to save his arm? Did they manage [unclear]
LK. Yes, uhm yes
CM: [unclear] later on?
LK: Yes, they did um they did and and everybody that I remember sort of said how amazing it was that he could handle the big vehicles with the injury and and he had some rehab at uhm Roehampton I think it was and uhm Dan Maskell who was a tennis coach at the time used to coach them with ten he used to have some rehab training with Dan Maskell, I remember mom saying that years and years ago as well but I don't, couldn't tell you any more than that but it was amazing what he could do he and as I say, very stiff upper lip and he, he just used to grit his teeth and get on with everything so never complained
JK: He wasn’t very old himself
LK: No, he never complained though, did he mum?
JK: No, no no
LK: No, no
JK: Well, they no, never, none of them did, no
LK: No, no, that's true that's true
JK: They were all a great lot like that
LK: Yeah
CM: Did he stay
JK: But it’s such a long time ago anyway
CM: Did he stay in touch with
LK: Sorry?
CM: Did he stay in contact with any of the rest of the crew?
LK: That I don't know that I don't know
JK: But they were all too young for that
CM: Yeah
LK: That I don't know yeah
CM: Yeah, that's fine
JK: [unclear] ago
SB: Did he ever go to any reunions?
LK: And that I don't know either. I've actually tried to look at, look into things like that and we actually, uhm going back years uhm actually wrote to the personnel department uhm, I think it was Gloucester at the time for the Air Force uhm and we had to get mum's permission to request his uhm war records and I did get a letter back but some of it didn't actually tally with what was in the log book and what we already knew and uhm they, they actually said they were very kind and they said but we’re sure you'll appreciate it and
JK: As it was in war time it wasn't all clear you see yeah
LK: Yeah and, and they said we're sure you'd appreciate that as it's uhm over 40 years ago, uhm the records aren't very thorough so, so we kind of accepted and as I say, we thought we had more with the log book and, and various other bits
JK: Jenna's the only one that could remember most of it yeah,
LK: Yes
JK: Cause Robert doesn’t remember anything
LK: No, he doesn't, no. That's why he suggested to Sandra that I might try and help when uh [laughs] when I came up so that's why. Although Malc's got uhm a fair, fair sort of knowledge of it, cause he's interested as I was
JK: And I can't remember how long but I mean after he died eventually I, we came back to Lincoln didn't I? I brought you back here
LK: You did, yes, I was 16 at the time, wasn't I?
JK: What were you 15?
LK: 16
JK: And then you went back on your own
LK: I did yes. Lincoln wasn't for me, was it? Wasn't, wasn't uhm
JK: No, no
LK: Interesting enough [laughs]
JK: Where did you go back, cause you, you went into a
LK: To London
JK: Yeah and what what
LK: And I worked
JK: It was like a club wasn't it? What was it called? It was something to do with a
LK: I worked for a store on Oxford Street didn't I originally?
JK: Yeah. I can't remember
LK: Because they had a staff residence
JK: That’s it
LK: And that was how you let me go yeah
LK: Yes
JK: And that's where I let you go didn't I?
LK: Yes
JK: Yeah, yeah
LK: Yeah, that's right
JK: And that was the start of it
LK: Yeah, yeah and I’ve been there ever since [laughs]
JK: What were you? About 16 and a half, weren't you?
LK: No i was 18 and a half when I went back yes
JK: When you went [unclear] You were as old as that?
LK: Yes
US: Yeah
LK: Yes, so I was here for two years and I said that's it
JK: I didn’t let you go too early [unclear] I’ve had enough [laughs]
CM: Do you have any other memories of your father?
LK: Uhm, I can remember, yes very much so um when the sun shone, we used to go out on picnics, didn't we? He used to say get the kids ready, Joan and we used to pack up a picnic and we used to go to
JK: Yes, yeah. Oh yes, we used to go out a lot
LK: Yeah, he used to take us out to Heathrow airport to watch the planes and uhm, used to go to a park in Tottenham that had all kinds of things for kids, they had like a mini road
JK: Yeah [unclear]
LK: Where you could hire a bike for a quarter of an hour
JK: [unclear] Picnics for us, where was that
LK: Pardon?
JK: Kind of perhaps you wouldn't remember that I can't remember where it was um it was a like a big picnic area, and it was halfway up the hill and your daddy was there then
LK: No, I don't remember that
JK: I can't well, you will ideal, she was the eldest [unclear] but she was
LK: Well I remember going out on lots of picnics but I don't remember that no. Downhills, at Downhills park we used to go to in Tottenham Downhills
JK: Downhill somewhere like that, anyway I can't remember probably, it’s a long time ago
LK: Yeah
JK: But your dad wasn't there then was it?
LK: Pardon?
JK: Your dad wasn't there then oh yes, he was yes
LK: He was, he used to take us, didn't he?
JK: Yeah [unclear] to start with yeah, yeah. But towards the end it didn't take him long to go, did it?
LK: No, I don’t mean, I don't remember that very well, but he was
JK: But no, no, no, his mum and dad, he went pretty you know, he wouldn't have known you know he made no fuss about it but yeah. Well once they got him into the hospital in town, I used to go all the way from north London right away in town didn't I ever?
LK: Yes, yes
JK: And he never came back that's where, that's where he had to be all the time
SB: Do you remember which hospital it was, Joan?
LK: It was the Central Middlesex um yeah and uhm the last time I saw him was on Christmas day in 1957.
JK: Yeah, yeah
LK: And I, since then I don't like Christmas anymore
JK: I can't remember the name of that hospital, can you?
LK: Was the Central Middlesex, wasn't it?
JK: That’s it
LK: Yes, it's not there anymore it's a block of flats and a car park
JK: Yeah and the other Malcolm and [unclear] and the other one weren't very old, were they?
LK: No, we went up there and they gave us a present off the Christmas tree, didn't they?
JK: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. Yeah
LK: He was very poorly very, very poorly
SB: Yeah because he died in the January
LK: Yeah, yeah, I remember when we were there uhm he had his eyes closed the whole time and a couple of the doctors came into the ward dressed as a horse and I can remember saying oh look dad look at that horse and he just kind of half nodded, he didn't even open his eyes so he was ever so poorly poor soul but there we are
JK: He just stuck it out
LK: He did, yeah, he did
JK: Can't remember the hospital he died in, can you?
LK: Central mid, oh he went to a hospice in Bayswater, didn't he? You went to a hospice in Bayswater. You had to go
JK: [unclear]
LK: You had to go to Bayswater
JK: [unclear] had to go every night
LK: Yes, it was yes that's right yeah yeah
JK: Yeah. That’s a long time ago
LK: It is, it is
JK: And he certainly suffered but no [unclear] about it
LK: No, no, he never made a fuss, did he?
JK: I don't know how many raids he did, do you?
LK: Well uhm, one tour of operations I think was 32 and he, he did uhm maybe,
JK: I think [unclear] 30
LK: Maybe, maybe about 12 on the second, second tour when he got injured
JK: It wasn't the second tour
LK: I can’t remember, it’s in the book, haven’t [unclear], I can't remember
JK: Yeah, a long time ago
LK: Yeah, it is a long time ago
JK: And they were all very young anyway
LK: Yes, that's right
SB: That’s a list of medals
LK: Oh, is it?
JK: What’s that?
LK: Mal, that's Rob's writing so maybe it's a list of medals. I’ve got a feeling Malcolm’s got those. I'll ask, I will ask him
SB: Because Rob told me he had nothing
LK: No, he doesn't, he doesn't. I think it's Malcolm that's got them to be honest there's, they're certainly not here and I’ve just got a feeling it's Malcolm because
JK: What you [unclear]?
LK: A list of medals that dad had
JK: I'll have a look when I’ve got [unclear] the folder there might be something might there? I’ve got the folder in the drawer
LK: No, no, no, this is this, I think Malcolm’s got them for safekeeping
JK: Are you sure?
LK: I think so yes, I’m going to ask him
SB: Bob seemed to, rob seemed to think that Malc had some stuff
LK: He does
SB: That he was showing people um and I think Rob thinks
JK: Did you talk to Malcom?
SB: That he took them to the Dambusters Pub, you know because
LK: Yes, I don't think, yes he would have taken them
SB: Not to lend them but to show them to somebody
LK: Yeah, yeah because the, well the chap who was the um the landlord of the Dambusters he had so much memorabilia there from the Dambusters because it was Scampton of course and uhm, cause mum and I, we went out, do you remember we went to the Dambusters pub in Scampton for Sunday lunch one time didn't we?
JK: Yeah
LK: And they had a picture on the wall which had which were had dad in it, it was
JK: Uhm yeah
LK: And it was the 57 squadron and I’ve got a very bent uhm picture of that you know the whole, cause they used to take the wide screen it's about that wide, I’ve got it somewhere but it's, you know, it's in sort of like three or four pieces because it was folded up before I ever came into, I think I got it from my dad's sister I think uhm but I’m sure Malcolm’s got those and I’ll ask him
JK: Oh, it’s right in the middle of the lot
LK: Yeah and Malcolm, uhm Malcolm, they had uhm part of the uhm uh control panel
JK: The night after night after night bombing
LK: The joysticks and things he, because the guy who lived, who ran the pub he used to collect all that stuff and he went, he went to France in the end and he died
SB: Have you've been there recently?
LK: No
SB: The, the pub has really been done up, you need to go again
LK: Really? Really?
SB: [unclear] got more stuff
LK: Has it? oh my goodness someone would do that then, yeah
JK: What was that?
LK: The Dambusters has got even more, the pub has got even more memorabilia now than it used to have
JK: I’m not surprised
LK: Yeah. Well the guy who started it he's um,
JK: They’re still open, aren’t they?
LK: Yeah, yeah. Maybe he sold it. Maybe he sold the stuff to them, I’m not sure.
JK. [unclear] to look at
LK: I’ll ask Malc, cause Malc knows all that kind of stuff
JK: probably [unclear]
SB: He’ll be still going strong.
CM: You mentioned when we were discussing the logbook earlier about the height tests
LK: Yes uhm yes, they were, uhm the dad and the crew went doing low-level flying training, didn't they at one point?
JK: At what was that?
LK: They did low-level flying training at one point
JK: Yeah, yeah
LK: Yes and uhm I remember mum saying at the time of course dad couldn't say what it was for and and they didn't know either uhm but it, it seems it was a pre-empt to uhm they were testing the crews for the Dambusters and, and as far as I’m aware because squadron leader Avis was such a valuable pilot and on the ground they didn't want him to go uhm and they said that my dad's crew could go with another pilot but he apparently said no if they don't, if they don't go with me they don't go. So, they'd done all the training and, and weren't sort of picked at the last minute because of their, their squadron leader pilot so that's what I understand
JK: That was the time when they were going to blast back to get in again, all of them
LK: They were going to do the dams weren't they?
JK: Yeah, yeah
LK: The dam busters
JK: That’s right
LK: Yes, so they they, flew over the Derwent water and places like that I think yeah
SB: Ladybower Dam
LK: Yeah, pardon?
SB: Ladybower Dam
LK: Yes that's it, yeah. See you know [laughs]
JK: She knows a lot about it
LK: I know she does, she does I know but uhm, but I did uhm as I say I read guy Gibson’s Enemy Coast Ahead and I’ve got a big book of uhm, on the Lancaster which my dad's brother gave me uhm and there's lots of stories from uh, from those days and I’ve also got a book called Bomber Boys which is also uhm, I just I’m just interested so
CM: Keeps a living memory, doesn't it?
LK: Well it does yeah, he said, well he's always been there for me anyway, you know even though he's not with us he's, he's very much there and I still talk to him
JK: So they weren't still around here when you were around?
SB: Sorry?
JK: They weren't still around here when you were around, weren't they?
SB: No
JK: No, awful long time ago
SB: I’m not that old
LK: [laughs] she's too young mum
JK: Yeah yeah [laughs]. Well, I forget how old I am
LK: Yes, she keeps asking me and adding a few more years
JK: Anyway
LK: This plane that he used to fly on, was it O for Oboe?
JK: It could be right
LK: I seem to remember that, I seem to remember yeah, I seem to remember grandma telling us
JK: Yeah, I think, I think [unclear]
LK: Years ago, that you used to listen to the radio
JK: Yeah
LK: And they used to announce so you knew whether, you knew, whether, you know, Dad’s plane was coming back,
JK: [unclear] Yeah
LK: Was it O for Oboe?
JK: Yes, it was. I could remember Grandad listening for it
LK: Yeah, yeah, I do, so that's a vague memory that's half right I don't know if it was [unclear]
JK: Yeah, yeah
LK: That might [unclear] somewhere
JK: [unclear] early hours in the morning, you see
LK: They were used to
JK: [unclear] getting ready for work in the morning
LK: Yeah, to make sure dad had got back safely
JK: Yes. O for Oboe, that that was it
LK: Was it?
JK: Yeah
LK: Oh, okay [laughs]
JK: He was remembered
LK: Well, I don't know whether I did [laughs]
JK: I can't tell you any more than that
LK: No, neither can I.
US: [unclear]
LK: Yes, uhm, oh no, no, that’s
SB: Doesn’t look like him
LK: Oh no, no, that was, uhm apparently, I think mum said he was a Canadian
SB: Alright
JK: There was a lot of Canadians
LK: A friend of dads in the Air Force and you, didn't you say he had a Canadian friend? One of the crew was
JK: I’m not, I haven’t heard of that
LK: A Canadian chap in the air force was a friend of dads
JK: I wouldn't know if [unclear]
LK: No, no see those are the originals
JK: Lots of British nationalities
SB: You've got copies of them
LK: Pardon?
JK: I thought they were all sorts of
LK: I know, I know but I seem to remember you saying that he had a Canadian friend who got, who got killed and you thought that one of those pictures might have been him
CM: So how long was he [unclear]?
LK: I don't, to be honest I really don't know
JK: [unclear] a long time
LK: That was when he was home on leave one time, that’s South Mimms in Hertfordshire
SB: Hold a pipe
LK: Yes, he used to smoke a pipe, didn't he? For a little while
JK: He did for a while, yeah
LK: Yeah
JK: He didn't always
CM: Did they smoke when they were flying?
JK: Yeah
LK: Oh yeah, apparently he, that poor chat uhm went walking past mum and dad when they were in, you were in South Mimms and you said uhm dad said he was the village idiot so that's why I put it in there
JK: [unclear] South Mimms very well [laughs]
LK: Yeah there you are
JK: Yeah. He did look like the village idiot
LK: Yeah, if there's, yeah, any any, yeah that's it, I think mum said he was three sheets to the wind in that one [laughs] or it might have been that one if his cap's a bit skewered on one of them I can't remember
[laughter]
JK: Is a long time ago
LK: Oh yeah that's the uhm
JK: Oh, a lot happened in those years yes
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Joan and Linda King
Creator
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Claire Monk
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-09-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AKingJ-L170905, PKingJ1701
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Pending review
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00:39:41 audio recording
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
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Joan King was born in Lincoln and together with her daughter, Linda King, talks about her husband, Eddie King, who served as a mid-upper gunner on Lancasters at RAF Scampton with 57 Squadron. He did two tours of operations. While he was briefly posted to RAF Wickenby, he suffered an injury on a flight back from an operation to Germany and while the pilot wanted to bail out over Germany, Eddie convinced the crew to fly back home. Following his injury, Eddie was sent to Roehampton for rehab under tennis coach Dan Maskell. Flew on O for Oboe. Linda mentions Eddie doing low-level flying training on 57 Squadron. Joan and Linda also share family memories.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
57 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
RAF Scampton
RAF Wickenby
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/899/11139/AJacksonDM171130.2.mp3
1afde4d3c12a3c8d0bc1a7b452422441
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Jackson, Norman
N Jackson
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with David Jackson about his father Norman Jackson VC (1919 - 1994), his service record and two photographs.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Jackson and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jackson, N
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: [unclear] [laughs] My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 30th of November 19, 2017 and we are in Kingswood in Surrey talking to David Jackson whose father was Norman Jackson VC and we are going to start off with earliest recollections of father’s life. So, what were the first [unclear] there?
DJ: Oh, good afternoon Chris. My father was born in Ealing in London on the 8th of April 1919. He was born to a single mother who put my father up for adoption. My father was adopted by a Mr and Mrs Gunter who lived in Twickenham. They were a professional family as far as I know. They certainly had a lovely house in Camac Road, Twickenham, they also adopted, just after dad another lad by the name of Geoffrey, Geoffrey Hartley. My father and Geoffrey grew up together, very close as half-brothers, my father was educated in Twickenham at Archdeacon Cambridge School, he stayed there until the age of sixteen where after gaining his school certificate joined an engineering company, he always had an interest in engineering. At the start of the Second World War in September 1939 my father decided that he wanted to volunteer, join the military services so he first he tried to join the Royal Navy but was told they weren’t actually recruiting at that time and so thought he would try the Royal Air Force where he was accepted. He was sent to RAF Halton where he took a further apprenticeship in engineering on airframes etcetera, from there once qualified, he joined 95 Squadron which was Sunderland flying boats, as a fitter he was sent to Africa, North East Africa which was Freetown where he served his time on Sunderland flying boats, he returned in 1942, in summer of ’42 where his intention was to join Bomber Command as a flight engineer, prior to that in 1939 he’d actually met my mother, Alma Lilian, they became engaged in 1940 when my father was then sent to North Africa and my, they didn’t see each other for two years, on my father’s return they organised their wedding which was on Boxing Day in 1942. ’43 my father started his training as an engineer on Bomber Command, joined his first squadron later that summer in ’43 which is 106 Squadron at that time based at Syerston in Lincolnshire soon to be sent to RAF Metheringham where the squadron was then based, flew several missions including ten to Berlin, several incidents during his tour of operations with Bomber Command, got shot up, engines out of action, very heavy landings with Fred Mifflin the pilot who they considered taking off flying actually and retraining because he couldn’t land the Lancaster without bouncing it, one day that led in a crosswind situation where they switched runways on a heavy crosswind and my father, the aircraft crashed with a heavy landing losing his undercarriage, my father suffered a broken leg at that time but even with a broken leg managed to get Fred Mifflin, he was in a bit of a, had a few problems inside the cockpit and managed to drag him out but was patched up and continued flying with a broken leg for further six weeks. Thirty missions were completed because my father actually had volunteered with another crew, his flight engineer wasn’t able to go one night, father stood in, so he reached his thirty missions’ quota before the rest of the crew. On the night of the 27th of April 1944, target designated was Schweinfurt in Germany, father volunteered to go along with the rest of the crew to see them through, this would be his thirty first mission, they took off on time, prior to the take-off my father had received a telegram to say that his first child, my oldest brother Brian had been born, he went along on the mission, they hit a head wind which slowed them up and when they arrived over the target they seemed to be alone but they went ahead, bombed, and by turning out and all of a sudden Sandy Sandelands the wireless operator spoke to Fred Mifflin the pilot over the intercom telling him he had a blip on his fishpond screen, his radar screen, he felt that blip could be a night fighter, they all braced themselves and waited, he then came back, Sandy Sanderson said it’s closer, it’s fast, it’s definitely a night fighter and then before they knew it the aircraft was being racked with cannon fire, my father was thrown to the ground, he was injured at that time with shell splinters, on recovering his position in the cockpit he noticed that the starboard wing had a fire just inside the engine area, he tried to feather the engine which he did, he feathered it, but the fire was still raging out there because it was basically in the wing where the fuel tank was. He decided at that time that he could deal with it, he got the, asked the permission of Fred the pilot, he felt he could deal, so he said, he could actually climb out on the wing with a fire extinguisher with the aid of the crew if he jettison his parachute, Fred Mifflin looked at him incredulously but said, ok, go ahead, so Dad took the cockpit axe which had an ice pick end on it, he took a fire extinguisher from inside the cockpit which he placed inside his tunic, his flying tunic, the bomb aimer and the navigator stood by as Dad climbed onto the navigator’s table and jettisoned the hatch above there which is just behind the pilot’s seat, he then deployed his parachute so that navigator and bomb aimer could hold onto the rigging lines, whilst had sorted the lines out Dad then climbed through the hatch and into the two hundred mile and hour slipstream, it was icy cold, he said he always remembered how cold it was, he inched his way out keeping close to the fuselage, trying not to have the slipstream affect him any more than it would, he used the ice pick on the axe to fire into the side of the fuselage to give him some purchase and then pulled himself down towards the wing root which was below him and toward the aerial intake at the front of the wing where he managed to get his left hand in to hold on, he then removed the fire extinguisher from his flying jacket and started dealing with, knocked the end of the fire extinguisher off on the front of the wing, the extinguisher started and he started to deal with the fire, he felt he was doing ok and the fire started to die down, at that point the wing lifted below him and the aircraft started to bank to the left. He was then, he then realised that the fighter must have found them again, the fighter came in, racked the aircraft again with machine gun and cannon fire, my father was hit several times with shell splinter and bullets, the wing blew up around him, engulfing him in flames, the slipstream from the aircraft as it slipped to the port side and down, lifted my father off the wing and he was thrown backwards, he came to an abrupt halt just behind the rear of the aircraft because he was still attached to the cockpit via his rigging lines and parachute, as he was being dragged down through the air, those inside the cockpit thought Dad had been killed but thought they’d get the parachute out anyway, they scrambled as best they could to get the shoot out as it been ripped, as it went through the hatch above the navigators table, it also suffered damage through the fire, my father then left the aircraft as the parachute went out through the hatch, he descended to ground quite rapidly, hit the ground very, very heavily, smashed both ankles, he laid there in a pitiful state, ankles smashed, his hands and face were severely burned, his right eye was completely closed, he also had several shell and shrapnel wounds in his body, he lay there until first light, he then crawled on elbows and knees through the forest and came across a small cottage, he approached the cottage and with his elbow knocked on the door, a window opened above him and a male voice shouted, was ist da? My father said, RAF. The voice from the window upstairs once again said, was ist da? My father cleared his voice as best he could and said in a louder voice, RAF. The voice from above shouted, Terror Flieger! Churchill gangster! And the window closed. Dad then heard the window opening and expected to be kicked and punched but there were a couple of girls inside, who took father in and laid him on a settee and started attending to him, their father, who was the person in the window upstairs, disappeared through the door, he returned a little while later with a policeman and a chap who Dad thought must have been Gestapo was in plain clothes, they then took Dad off of the settee and my father, supported by the policeman was made to march to the local police station. A the police station he was placed into a [unclear], he was in wheels through the streets to the local hospital, en route he suffered verbal abuse and even some stones but he always said he understood this, at the hospital he was treated very well, he stayed in the hospital for several months, he was then transferred to a prisoner of war camp where he served out his time, he escaped once, he tried to, was recaptured, at the end of the war he was repatriated along with the other, the rest, the surviving members of the crew. The surviving members of the crew told my father’s story, my father got a call from a WAAF officer he said who asked if that was warrant officer Norman Cyril Jackson, he said, yes, it was, and she said, I’m just calling you to let you know you’ve been awarded the Victoria Cross. My father’s words were, what the bloody hell for?
CB: We’ll pause there for a moment. That’s. Now in terms of picking up a bit more of detail on this, they got hit and hit badly twice by the fighter or fighters but in general in the dark you can’t see anything that’s going on but you can be seen so what did he feel about flying in these sorties?
DJ: My father, I can remember my father saying that on every single mission they flew which was obviously at night, very dark unless you had a full moon which sometimes light you up, you were, they used to have the four Merlin engines on the Lancaster, and what was a concern to them all the time was the exhaust of the Merlin engine which had basically bright flames coming out of it and that always made the Lancaster visible, they felt from inside the cockpit to anything that was out there but they also had pleasure in seeing that coming out because they knew the engines were still running, so it was basically almost a double edged sword, one you needed to see the exhaust as Dad said to make sure they are all running properly but the other you knew you were a possible target to anyone that was out there that you couldn’t see but they could see you.
CB: And in his training going back a bit he was originally trained as a ground engineer
DJ: Correct, yes.
CB: At what stage and how did he do it, did he get into flying? [unclear]
DJ: This would have happened in Africa, in Freetown when he was with 95 Squadron the Sunderland flying boats, he decided out there that he actually wanted to be part of the aircrew and as a qualified engineer he would be useful to Bomber Command and he knew the new four engine bombers were coming onto stream with the Lancaster and felt that was a position for him and so suitably applied and was accepted
CB: So what do you know about the training he had to do in preparation for getting into the, into Bomber Command?
DJ: Well, I’m reading now, this is the Air VCs Chaz Bowyer, book called For Valour, now, this actually says that my father enlisted in the 20th of October 1939 after various training courses at Halton and Hednesford he became classified as a fitter 11E engines, a group one tradesman posted overseas, his first unit was 95 Squadron to which he reported on the 2nd of January 1941, a Short Sunderland flying boat squadron based on the West African coast near Freetown following, for the following eighteen months Jackson continued to serve as a engine fitter on flying boats Marine Craft but the opportunity to remuster to flying duties as a flight engineer attracted him and he accordingly applied for training, as a result he returned to England in September 1942 and after six months at 27 OTU, Operational Training Unit moved to RAF St Athan at the end of March 1943 to complete instruction. Finally, with promotion to sergeant he was mustered, or remustered, I apologize, as a flight engineer on the 14th of June and posted to number 1645 Heavy Conversion Unit on the 28th of July he joined his first squadron 106 based at Syerston and flying Avro Lancasters.
CB: Right, that sets the scene very well. Did he talk about what the training was like?
DJ: No,
CB: And
DJ: Only, the only thing Dad ever used to mention about training was that the RAF lost more aircrew training than they did on missions themselves, on sorties, he said the loss rate on training was quite high, that’s what I can remember him saying about training
CB: Certainly, there was quite a loss. So, with his training he didn’t start flying until he got to the operational training unit is what you’re saying, yeah, because he’s been on the ground before.
DJ: Well, again I’m reading from Chaz Bowyer’s book here, which has quite a lot of detail, so from September 1942, I think that’s when he started, he applied and after six months at 27 Operational Training Unit moved to RAF St Athan and that was the end of March when he, he may have started his flying training then, whether there was any prior to that at the 27 Operational Training Unit I don’t know.
CB: Ok.
DJ: I don’t know, I think Dad did actually, I can remember Dad talking about RAF Elstos which was a small twine engined aeroplane he used to fly, so at that point being
CB: Ansons,
DJ: Ansons, sorry, the Anson, my apology,
CB: Yes, yeah
DJ: The Anson aircraft, so he did some time on that
CB: Right
DJ: Now I presume that was not at the operational, that may have been at the Operational Training Unit rather than the Heavy Conversion Unit, so I suspected he started before that
CB: The Heavy Conversion Unit would have been the four engine
DJ: The four engine, absolutely, yeah
CB: One way or another. Ok, good, and because he talked to you about a number of things, what did he say about when he got to flying, how he felt about flying?
DJ: He didn’t actually like it that much, I mean, bear in mind, Dad never used to speak, talk about it really at all, it used to be people asking him questions and we as children would be there and I asked, you know, in my father’s later life used to talk Dad about it but he was not very happy with talking about the war, he felt everybody should move on. What was the question, sorry?
CB: The question was how he felt about flying.
DJ: Flying itself he never really enjoyed it, it was just something that had to be done and even though my father wasn’t a particularly religious man, he always said that nobody prayed harder than him before a mission, cause he knew what to expect.
CB: That’s an interesting point because people did different actions before going on a mission, on operation, what did he do? Did he have a mascot, or did he do something before getting in the [unclear]?
DJ: Father never had a mascot as far as I know, he just looked at it as a job that needed to be done and
CB: Did he go through a ritual before getting in the aircraft, do you know?
DJ: No, not that I know of, no.
CB: No.
DJ: He certainly would have spoken of it.
CB: And we are talking about here when he got to the Heavy Conversion Unit it’s now a bomber crew of seven, how did that crew get gelled together?
DJ: As far as I know, once they’d actually formed up as a crew they gelled very well, they, my father always said that they were like a band of brothers, they were very close and that probably, well, I’m sure that would have been the reason why my father decided to fly on the final mission to see them through, their thirtieth, my father’s thirty first, they were very close, socialised together
CB: You talked about him being badly injured when he landed, cause he landed in a different position after he left the aircraft
DJ: Yes
CB: Yeah
DJ: To the rest of the crew
CB: They got out later presumably
DJ: Yes
CB: Were they all in the same prison camp or different ones?
DJ: No, I think that I’m not absolutely sure of, I don’t know, they may have been in the same prison camp [unclear] record and I did not at some stage which Stalag Luft my father was in but I can’t recall it at the moment
CB: Yeah. But did they get together after the war?
DJ: I don’t know much about that actually, I do know that I met two, as a young lad, schoolboy, I met the wireless operator Sandy Sandelands who came to our house in Hampton Hill, Middlesex. I also met the navigator, Frank Higgins, I met him as well, he used to tell about, I can remember them saying that my father citation was always wrong but, you know, they said they just didn’t listen to us because you know, because my father certaition states that on leaving the aircraft my father slipped and then ended up on the wing involved in the fire, well, if you climb out on top of the fuselage on an aircraft travelling at two hundred miles an hour and you’d slip, you don’t go down, you go backwards and this is what they used to say to me and they said, we were looking at your father on the wing and thinking we didn’t actually want him to go out there, we’d all rather just bailed out and that was it, but certainly when the fighter attacked the second time they thought that was it, he shouldn’t have gone out there cause he had now gone, that’s what they thought but those are the two that I’ve met and the only other person I can really remember, which I’d met later many times was Leonard Cheshire at various functions at Buckingham Palace or [unclear] for the Victoria Cross holders
CB: Yes
DJ: But they are the two members of the crew that I have met
CB: And on that topic Leonard Cheshire and your father received the Victoria Cross on the same day, so what happened there?
DJ: The, it was October 1945, as I say, following my father getting that phone call from a female officer in the Royal Air Force informing him he was to be awarded the Victoria Cross, the investiture took place on October 1945, on that day which my mother and father attended was Leonard Cheshire as well, officer commanding 617 Squadron at that time, he was to be awarded the Victoria Cross as well at the investiture in front of the king they were informed about the protocol of the event, the Victoria Cross would always be called first, amongst, cause there were other people there receiving other awards, the Victoria Cross, the people to be invested with the Victoria Cross would be called first, Leonard Cheshire as a group captain, as I believe his rank was at that time, would be called up first, Leonard Cheshire stopped speaking to me at that time, he said, absolutely not, I cannot go first, Norman Jackson in Leonard’s words stuck out his neck much more than I ever did, he should get the Victoria Cross first, I feel humble by being in the presence of this man which is what Lenny told me many times every time I saw him but he, Leonard Cheshire was told that because of the protocol of the day that couldn’t happen and the king would receive him first followed by my father so that’s what happened on that day, Leonard Cheshire went first followed by my father who received the Victoria Cross
CB: And how did they continue their association after the war, was it to do with the?
DJ: I think that after the war of course, the war in Europe had finished, it hadn’t finished in the Far East, my father was being crewed up to continue flying in the Far East but then obviously with the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the war in the Far East ended and that was that but on the aircraft that dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki the RAF observer was Leonard Cheshire and it had such an effect on him psychologically that he then went into an infirmary to for, I’m not sure how long it was for but he disappeared really from public life at that time, so my father never saw him until probably in the 1950s at various Royal Air Force functions where the Victoria Cross holders would be invited and I think that’s when Leonard started to see my father again but there was no real friendship between them, it was just really the only association was that they’d both been awarded the Victoria Cross, my father did know of Leonard Cheshire prior to the investiture of Buckingham Palace because of his work with 617 Squadron as most people in the Royal Air Force would had done. He was a great man but never really continued to associate afterwards other than at functions, Royal Air Force functions or Victoria Cross and George Cross holders functions, that was it. Which is where I met Leonard quite a number of times.
CB: You talked about your father crewing up for the Far East, that was called Tiger Force after what squadron was he supposed to be going to
DJ: Ok, I don’t know Chris, it was just that me Dad said he was, cause I asked that question did he see Leonard afterwards,
CB: Yes, indeed.
DJ: But that was October 1945 and it was really at the end
CB: Sure
DJ: So prior to that Dad was, you know, he came back, he was still in the Royal Air Force, he was still in the Royal Air Force until ‘46
CB: We’ll get that from his service record, but what did he or how long did he stay in the RAF your father?
DJ: From ’39, I mean, I’ve already showed you the photographs
CB: Of his demob.
DJ: Which is 1946 with Roy Chadwick at the presentation of the silver Lancaster bomber to my father and my father’s in uniform there so I’m presuming he was still in the Royal Air Force at that time, awaiting demobilisation I presume, yeah, so, the exact date I don’t know.
CB: They tended to, as I understand it, they tended to demobilise the people who’d been in longest earliest.
DJ: Well, my father joined in ’39 so he would have been long so but what date he got his demob I don’t know.
CB: Right.
DJ: Other than certainly in that photograph dated in, which, March wasn’t it? 1946 with Roy Chadwick my father still in uniform there, so.
CB: Can we just go fast backwards now, your father is on the aircraft, he is hit by cannon fire on the second attack by a fighter and he falls with his parachute in fire is what you were saying. He was badly burned
DJ: I don’t know if it was on fire or just smouldering, yeah, the rigging lines would have been dragging back
CB: But, he was dropping with that
DJ: At an alarming rate
CB: At an alarming rate and but he is burnt
DJ: Yes, very badly
CB: So, what do you know about how the German doctors dealt with his injuries?
DJ: Well, my father always said that they treated him very, very well, there is a report that I found out about twelve years ago, fourteen years ago by Spink’s in London doing some fact finding on my father, the hospital records are still there in Germany and when dealing with my father’s wounds, they actually ran out of saline and had to send out for more, that’s what they told me from the records they saw cause his wounds were so severe, so, that’s what I know, I mean, he said they treated him very well, very, very well
CB: So how long, remind me, how long was he in hospital?
DJ: The exact time I don’t know I believe, according to again if I may refer to Chaz Bowyer’s book For Valour The Air VCs, it states in here and I presume that some research was done for this, that my father was actually, if I can find the paragraph, at daybreak, my father is in a pitiful condition [unclear] he’s in German for the next ten months, Jackson [unclear] recuperated in a German hospital, though his burned hands never fully recovered so according to Chaz Bowyer ten months which would have put him from April through to early ‘45 where he was then sent to the prisoner of war camp
CB: And his wounds of course never fully recovered
DJ: The [unclear]
CB: [unclear] but what was the state of his hands later?
DJ: My father’s hands were noticeable that there was something different about them, my father had a really, if you looked at my father’s arms, they stopped obviously at the wrist, in he had a ring around each wrist and then the colour changed, my father’s hands were almost translucent where all the skin and flesh had been burnt through and then healed over the years. It never really bothered him as far as enabling him to do whatever he wanted to do, so there was no lasting effect from it other than the look of them really. He never suffered any lasting effects from those burns they healed and that was it but my father’s hands reached a stage where they wouldn’t heal any more so they looked like they looked on my father’s body which when we used to if we went to the beach or whatever my father had a pair of shorts on it was quite obvious with the number of scars on my father’s back and on the back of his legs that some sort of injuries had been sustained during his war years, certainly is quite a few scars there and as far as I believe there were seventeen different [unclear] hospital records from shell and shrapnel in my father’s body, some of those would have been incurred first attack and the rest on the second attack when he was on the way
CB: From your recollection what did they look like? Were some of them [unclear], were some them long and [unclear]?
DJ: Yeah, they were white and diamond shaped, I remember there were a couple that were sort of maybe half an inch long, straight, there were some that were diamond shaped and some that were round with almost an indentation to them so the skin had almost, was concave in my father’s back
CB: Was it a subject to conversation between
DJ: Never had, Dad never, all Dad used to say was, well, I’ve still got some shrapnel in my head, he used to feel round the back, [unclear] you could feel it there and used to feel the back of Dad’s head you could feel something sharp inside the skin so that’s the only thing he used to say when you tried to say, Dad, all those scars on your back but he wasn’t, he never used to speak about it much at all, it was, we learned about it from people coming to the house all the time, people would want interviews with Dad, the newspapers etcetera etcetera radio stations and so we learned about it from there it wasn’t something that Dad actually really spoke about but as we got older we spoke to Dad about it and
CB: And how did he feel about being questioned
DJ: Didn’t like it,
CB: By his family?
DJ: Oh, by his family? Well, he never really used to, Dad loved his family, he would never really be angry with us, he would talk but he never really opened up completely, he was just saying that that was then it was a very bad time, didn’t enjoy it very much, glad to move on and my father, we used to, I used to go to school with my father’s medals, they never meant much to Dad at all, he would let us take them to school in our pocket and of course teachers would want to see them and other people want to see them, he would go to Royal Air Force functions at various places, he would never ever put his medals on until he was inside the building and he would take them off before he left the building, he wouldn’t put them on because he felt that it wasn’t fair on all the other aircrew who were walking around who had their medals on, he felt it was almost ill deserved. I can remember one incident where my father had a function to go to and normally his medals would be in his desk drawer where he’d throw them he put them in there and just leave the drawer and that was it and he couldn’t find his medals anywhere and we were hunting, the whole family were hunting and we couldn’t find the medals anywhere and then obviously you start to backtrack the last time you had them, you know, he was at this function a few months before and what suit were you wearing and to that suit but the suit had been to the drycleaners in which was the [unclear] dry cleaners I can remember that in Twickenham and suddenly we thought maybe they were in Dad’s pocket when they went to the drycleaners so we phoned up the drycleaners and he said, yeah, we got a set of medals here, they were in some suit somewhere and we put them in the drawer and it was my father’s medals including the Victoria Cross that had just thrown in the drawer at the dry cleaners [laughs] so Dad managed to recover them ready for the next function. But he never really gave them any thought, he just put them in the pocket and that was it, that’s what Dad was like.
CB: Right, we’ll just stop for a minute. Going back to the medical issues and the hospital experience, in Britain McIndoe was the man who was best known for his plastic surgery but there other people doing it, what did Dad think about the work done by the doctor’s there? Were the plastic surgeons identified in any way or?
DJ: No, no one in particular, he said that he was very, very well looked after, he did speak about a Canadian doctor who would work in the hospital there which always seemed a bit odd to me that you would have a Canadian doctor working in a German hospital but whether that was, he was brought in for a particular reason or not, I don’t know, Dad never really spoke about it more than that other than say he was very, very well looked after, he was in a pretty pitiful state, he must have been but obviously a very strong will and managed to recover
CB: Any idea of the number of operations they had to perform on him?
DJ: No, no, none whatsoever, I don’t know [unclear]
CB: The hospital itself where do you think that was?
DJ: I would say, well the target that night was Schweinfurt which it I believe quite deep in Germany so I presume that as they were shot down over the target or just after the target, bombing the target it must have been within that vicinity, as much as, that would be a guess obviously.
CB: When you said that Spink’s did an awful lot of research on it
DJ: At the auction of my father’s medals which was done by Spink’s in London in 2004 following the loss of my mother and the subsequent dealing with the estate which included my father’s decorations, they did quite a lot of research and supplied me with quite a lot of information including all of my father’s mission records which I have and gave me the information about the hospital that they must have got, whether they got that from the hospital themselves or from somewhere else I don’t know, they gave me the information about the hospital running out of saline and so but the Canadian doctor bit my father, I can remember my father talking about that and [unclear]
CB: [unclear]
DJ: I presume so, yes, yeah, however they used to treat them in those days.
CB: A bit largely experimental I imagine.
DJ: I [unclear], I mean, I do sometimes think my father must have been in so much pain because if you have very deep burns and they are exposed to the air is very painful. And at the time my father hit the ground, his gloves must have been completely burnt off, completely burnt through so he must have been exposed to the air, but maybe with his smashed ankles, only being able to walk on elbows and knees, badly burnt face as well, one eye closed, there was so much pain elsewhere that it sort of numbed the effect of the hands, I don’t know. And it was pretty cold as well if I understand it was April or so I think it must have been pretty cold out there so that may have helped as well, the cold temperature.
CB: So, he was clearly damaged shall we say in various ways, what happened to his eye? Did that recover or what was wrong with it?
DJ: Yeah, I think he just got a bad bash on it or something, I don’t think there was any shrapnel damage to it at all, he, it was just happened in the incident probably when he left the aircraft he hit something and bashed his eye, I presume, I don’t know, Dad never spoke about it but his right eye was completely closed, I mean, Chaz Bowyer mentions that in the book here when he hit the ground so I think that would have just healed and opened up as normal
CB: These sorts of injuries can stay with people for the rest of their lives and you talked about the fact that his head had some shrapnel in it
DJ: Yes
CB: What about his health of in later years? Was his experience in the war in any way a disadvantage to him from a health point of view later?
DJ: No, I don’t believe, if it was I don’t think my father would have said so and he was a man that, he didn’t really speak about the war, he never actually said the war had any effect on him at all, physically or mentally, it was a time when they just did their duty, he spoke a lot about the other aircrew, how wonderful they were, and with the fact that there was no memorial to these guys, that bothered my father a lot over the years, a lot and but as far as the war affecting him, no, he never ever said that it damaged him in any way, in fact I think he felt himself quite lucky that he survived and went on to have seven children, extremely lucky, he often said that he should have died at the age of twenty five [unclear] man
CB: Where do you come in the ranking of children?
DJ: I am number five, born in 1953, so, four were born between ’44, which is my brother, my eldest brother Brian was born on the night my father was shot down and then we have Pauline, Brenda, Peter and then myself and I was followed by Ian and Shirley Anne a bit later.
CB: When were they born?
DJ: Ian was born 1955 and Shirley was, came along a little bit later in 1961 so there is a bit of a gap there.
CB: So, what sort of house did you have to accommodate all these members?
DJ: Yeah, a big one [laughs], My father had a, he built it himself actually with another chap, he bought some land in Hampton Hill, Burtons Road, Hampton Hill in Middlesex off of a chap had a big house in Uxbridge Road he came down to Burtons Road, so he bought this large, large piece of land and on there he built a bungalow, a four bedroom bungalow which had quite a large front, [unclear] it was a very large bungalow and that’s where we all were brought up
CB: Had bunk beds, did you?
DJ: Yes, yeah, I mean, when we were younger certainly and we were all seven at home, yeah
CB: Was there quite a well regimented system operating for use of the bathroom?
DJ: Probably, I don’t remember it being any problem, I know that we used to have a separate shower in the bathroom so we used to have showers all the time, bath night was generally on a Sunday or something where three or four of us boys used to get in together, I can remember that, certainly three of us, the younger ones used to get in together, the girls used to get in together, it was no issue at all, I mean, I was amazed that my mother who cooked three meals a day for us all, breakfast, lunch and dinner, would come up with so much variety for us all, I can always remember thinking where, my mother must be wonderful to come up with all these different choices all the time but it’s obviously I mean the house was full all the time, there was always things going on so we shared you had three of us in one bedroom when we were growing up, three of the boys, my oldest brother Brian had his own room, you had two girls with another bedroom and then when Shirley came along, a bit later, Pauline was getting married and so leaving the house and so Shirley could take her place [unclear] in the bedroom, Brian at that time had already gone, he’d been married and moved on so, it sort of, it worked out well at the end
CB: What was your father’s occupation after the war?
DJ: My father joined JBR Brandy as a salesman, that’s what he wanted to do, travel, he wanted to travel, he couldn’t settle down any more and his hands were such that he couldn’t go back really to engineering as such, he joined JBR Brandy, he was then with them for a while and then he was headhunted I suppose you could say by the distillers company [unclear] John Hague who wanted him to join them as their troubleshooting travelling salesman so to speak whereas they had accounts that needed building up they would send in, were sending in Norman Jackson VC and that carried some weight in those days. And suddenly people would sit up and listen and that’s what they used, you know, they, he was quite well thought of in the company for doing that, so, that’s what he did, he worked for John Hague was he, for many years. Up until retirement and he retired at the age of fifty-three.
CB: Oh, did he? What made him retire so soon?
DJ: My mother has suffered some mental health, she had suffered a stroke at that time but recovered from it but subsequently had a stroke later in life that put her into a wheelchair unfortunately but that was in, my mother was then sixty and lived to the age of eighty two with that
CB: [unclear]
DJ: Yeah, never complained about it, just got on with it
CB: This was the quality of scotch, was it?
DJ: Probably was, my mother never drunk [laughs], she would have a gin at Christmas with a tonic and that was it
CB: It was just the fumes from the open bottle
DJ: Yeah, maybe, my father used to, he’d drink, I think in those days it must have been different because every meeting my father used to have they’d drink whisky, they would go to a meeting and they’d have whisky, and then they’d drive home afterwards you know and my father used to come home, he’s been stopped by the police before in the old days driving home or he’d drive home with one eye closed looking at the centre line in the road because you know he’d been working and have a few whiskeys and the police would stop him and it would be local police and they’d realised who it was and they’d just take him home, knock on the door with Dad, one of them driving Dad’s car and the other one in the police car with Dad in the police car and say, oh, we have Norman Jackson here and delivering him to our house [laughs]. Happened on a few occasions.
CB: And what age was he when he died?
DJ: My father would have been, it was one month to the day before his seventy-fifth birthday, I’m sorry, one month to the day before they day he got shot down, my apologies, he died on March the 27th which was four weeks prior to the day when he took off, which was April 27 1944 so it was a couple of weeks before his 75th birthday.
CB: Now we touched earlier on the delicate question really of what happened to his medals, so
DJ: Yeah, not that delicate at all
CB: Ok, so, mother died,
DJ: Yeah
CB: Your mother died
DJ: Yeah.
CB: Was that someway the prompt on of dealing with the medical, medals,
DJ: Yes
CB: What happened exactly?
DJ: What happened was we contacted the RAF Museum in Hendon which we felt would’ve been where my father would’ve wanted them to go to, so we contacted the museum, not Douglas actually, we weren’t dealing with Douglas at that time, Douglas Radcliffe at Bomber Command, we were dealing with the curator of the museum and we said that we’d like my father’s medals to go there and he was very happy to receive them and letters were flying backwards and forwards between him and then suddenly my mother’s lawyer, I was an executive of my mother’s will as was my sister Shirley, the lawyer contacted us and said according to your mother’s will there is no stipulation about your father’s medals other than, as this is written in, to be kept within the family or if not part of the estate, he said, this is where we have an issue, you cannot keep a single item within a family, it has to be considered as part of the estate, this is what he said, so he said, well, if we all agree to donate it, he said, well, the problem with that in law there is no precedent for that, you, I can only tell you what the law is, he said, now, if you all agree we can possibly do something. My oldest brother Brian who at that time, at that time felt that they shouldn’t be donated to the museum, that was where the issue was, the lawyer acting for my mother then said, well, they have to be considered as part of the estate, so we said, well, what does that mean? He said, well, they have to be sold, he said, and if they have to be sold you can sell them on a private auction where nobody knows about it but the problem with that is legally if the maximum amount of money isn’t realised for any asset of the estate, the executives of that will can be held responsible, this is he’s just saying what the law is, he says, my advice to you would be to go to a public auction, I said, we don’t really want to do that but that was the road we went down so we contacted, well he did, Spink’s, the only reason we knew about Spink’s because that’s where my mother, my father’s medals used to go for maintenance and that sort of thing and they used to do the you know dressing of them and [unclear], so he contacted Spink’s who then contacted us and we had to go and see them and have this, you know, this meeting and everything else and then we had the auction, the media found out about it as we knew they would but a lot more, there was a lot more interest than we really anticipated and including us on the BBC news asked me to do a bit for them and they interviewed me at the RAF museum there talking about it, my wishes which just they would go to the museum for ten pounds or something you know and we donate that to charity or whatever, to which the lawyer said [unclear] you can’t do that, anyway there we are, day of the auction, all of the family really buried their head in the sand, they didn’t want to know, I was driving along the motorway somewhere listening to the radio and the news came on and it came on that the Victoria Cross awarded to airman Norman Cyril Jackson had sold, had made a world record of two hundred and thirty six thousand pounds at Spink’s in London, I felt, it was an awful feeling, it really was and then I got a call from various newspapers asking which I there felt, thought was quite personal actually, what are you gonna do with the money? And I just said, I don’t want the money, don’t want anything to do with it, don’t want to touch it, and then the guy from the Telegraph phoned and I spoke to him and he said, you sound quite angry, I said, well, only the fact that this didn’t need to happen in my view and he said, well, what do you feel about it? And then the next day he printed what I was saying that it bothered me that this, it had been sold amongst much acrimony and this sort of things and [coughs] it was not an easy time, the money itself was, sat at Spink’s for a while [coughs], they then forded it on to any lawyers dealing with the estate and it sat there until we were told that it had to be divided up amongst the people who were named within the will, which were the family, I personally refused to have any of it, with prior to that, Penny and I had lost our daughter unfortunately at a young age and we decided that what we’d like to do was have a bronze plaque made because the Victoria Cross is bronze from a cannon that was captured during the Crimean War, a Russian cannon, even though, you know, I think since they decided maybe it was a Chinese cannon that was captured by the Russians which was then captured by the British but we thought it’s bronze so we’d like to have a plaque made in bronze for Lilly our daughter so we got a quota back then of a thousand pounds and we took a thousand pounds of that money to make the plaque and the rest left with the rest of the family who wanted to take it and so that’s what happened to the proceeds of the sale of my father’s medals. At the time I was a bit angry because I felt they should be in a museum in the public domain, following the sale it became known that Lord Ashcroft had purchased my father’s Victoria Cross and he actually wrote it was one of his favourites which I thought was quite nice but I was still angry because I felt it should be in a public domain, I was told at that time by Didy Grahame who was at the or ran really the Victoria Cross and George Cross Association at the Home Office that don’t be too bothered because eventually they will end up in the public domain, Lord Ashcroft has stated that to me, that’s what Didy said and now of course Lord Ashcroft has been involved in the creation of the Victoria Cross room at the Imperial War Museum in London which is where my father’s medals were on show with the story so that is wonderful and I give my full thanks to Lord Ashcroft for that, it’s wonderful, it’s all ended up, you know, ok in the end and they are where they should be in the public domain and with my father’s story which is good
CB: And how did the rest of your siblings feel about
DJ: Awful, even to this day, really Brian was held responsible in some ways for what happened and that was tough for the family to take really because of dealing with the media and in some way trying to keep from the media without lying about what was happening and the reasons for it, what would’ve been nice if the lawyers just said, ok, a majority decision here, that’s what’s gonna happen but Brian felt that they shouldn’t be going to the museum, he’s entitled to his opinion but it did affect family, the family bond for many years to come, it did
CB: It sounds as though you found yourself in the front line of this but what about Shirley who was the other executive, why did she
DJ: Shirley to this day doesn’t forgive at all, not at all, Shirley, I do, I live and let live, I move on, Shirley is a different [unclear] [laughs], she hasn’t really forgiven so you’re welcome to go and interview her if you like [laughs], Shirley no, nor my sister Pauline neither my sister or Brenda really, they [unclear] forgiven, tough one
CB: Yeah
DJ: But that, you know, there we are. Brian had his reasons and he was entitled to them, you know, not everybody thinks the same and I think if you have seven children you are bound to have some disagreements, somewhere down the line
CB: You don’t need seven to get disagreements
DJ: No, two [laughs] or one.
CB: We’ll just stop there.
DJ: To be sold, part, consider part of the estate or sold, that was it,
CB: Those were the options
DJ: That was the options, they were part of the estate which meant they were to be sold as the rest of the estate would be
CB: Right
DJ: Or kept within the family and you cannot as my sister was saying at the time, you cannot keep one item between seven, you can’t cut it up and have a seventh each, you could all agree to give it to one person or to donate it or something, but you need full agreement and if there is one person that disagrees it’s part of the estate, that’s it, now you can have one person disagree for whatever reason, whether you want to see it sold, whether you just don’t want the museum to have it, if there is a disagreement and not, it’s not completely agreed by all seven children, it’s part of the estate, that’s how my mother’s will had been put together by her solicitor which was wrong really cause Mom would have been a lot better off, cause Mom always used to say I would rather Dad’s, my father’s medals, Dad’s medals went to David, that’s what she always wanted because she knew I would do the right thing and but that was never in my mother’s will, other members of the family knew that and kept quoting her but the solicitor said, [unclear] black on white
CB: Legally.
DJ: No.
CB: No.
DJ: This, my mother’s will was done many years ago, been forgotten about really so there it was in black on white and that was it, it just [unclear] one person to disagree for whatever reason and it was part of the estate
CB: Now Brian was the eldest?
DJ: Yes, he was, yeah
CB: And he is not with us any longer
DJ: No, oh you? that’s right, yeah, we lost him this year.
CB: Oh, this year
DJ: Yeah
CB: Right. So, how did the family, the survivors as it were, all six of you feel about it then being on display in the Imperial War Museum?
DJ: Happy.
CB: In that room?
DJ: Very happy. Very, very happy in doing it.
CB: So, does that in a way create a closure?
DJ: Yes
CB: In the family?
DJ: Absolutely, it does. They really should be in the public domain, doesn’t matter where but they’re in the public domain
CB: Yeah
DJ: That’s it. They’re still the property of Lord Ashcroft
CB: Yeah
DJ: As they should, I mean, but, you know, there we are, that’s it but they’re in the public domain which is a good thing
CB: It created, as you said earlier, a good deal of media attention and the sale price was two hundred and thirty-six thousand
DJ: Yeah
CB: What was the expected price at auction?
DJ: One forty, I think
CB: Right
DJ: From memory, I think they were saying it should reach about one hundred and forty thousand, which when you divide it by seven is nothing, twenty thousand or something like [unclear] saying at the time is just ridiculous, going through all this for twenty thousand pounds,
CB: Yes.
DJ: Which I, was a lot of money then I suppose but to me in my head it didn’t matter if it was two hundred thousand it still would’ve been a no
CB: Going back to that extraordinary experience in the Lancaster, what process do you understand went on between the crew members with your father deciding or convincing them that he should get out?
DJ: It wasn’t a, I don’t think, as I understand it he didn’t need to convince them, he was the most experienced member of the crew anyway, it was his job as far as he saw to see that Lancaster return and the crew as well, he asked the permission of the pilot Fred Mifflin who was obviously the skipper of the aircraft, he told him he could deal with it and I think the bond between them all, Fred never questioned it, it was an incredulous thing to try and do but he never questioned it and so he just let him get on with it, that was it, deal with it
CB: When he went into the prison camp, then there were lots of people there obviously, do you, what understanding do you have of how he got on when he was in the prison camp, prisoner of war camp?
DJ: The only thing I really about, Didy Grahame at the Victoria Cross and George’s Cross Association always says my father went through hell as she said in the prisoner of war camp, how she knows that I don’t know, I know very little about my father’s time in the prisoner of war camp other than he used to talk about they were very hungry all the time. He also spoke about in the prisoner of war camp was a chap who they called Little Bader who had lost both legs, he was an airman, lost both legs and they were forced to march, I don’t think this was what’s known as the long march or whatever, they were forced to leave that prisoner of war camp and march to somewhere else towards the end of the war and my father carried that chap, the legless Little Bader as they called him, the distance from that out the prisoner of war camp they [unclear] to the next one which I thought was a pretty incredible thing when, you know, you had hands that had been burnt through, broken ankles and God knows what else, [unclear] he’d healed but you couldn’t have been that good, because you hadn’t been, nutrition was probably non-existent almost and you’d carried him and the chap that Dad had carried actually wrote an article about this because he then found out about Dad’s award after the war and wrote an article saying this was the chap that carried me from the prisoner of war camp to the next prisoner of war camp, which I think was basically to get away from the advancing Allies to move further deeper into Germany and that’s what, that’s my only recollection of anything to do with my father’s time in the prisoner of war camp
CB: Do you know what his name was?
DJ: I did
CB: Ok [unclear]
DJ: I think, you can look it up, I did know it, it’s recorded, this chap, Little Bader, he’s quite well known I think
CB: Ok.
DJ: I think he was a rear gunner, I think he’d lost both legs
CB: We are talking still about the prison camp, he would have been in hospital as you said earlier all that time
DJ: Ten months according to Chaz Bowyer, yeah
CB: Ten months. And the effect of the surgery and the convalescence will still be in the system as it were when he gets to the prisoner of war camp, what do you know about the medical facilities, of the medical [unclear]?
DJ: I know nothing about, if it was [unclear] I don’t know
CB: No
DJ: I know very little if anything about the conditions within the prisoner of war camp, I know my father said they were always hungry, I know he said he never ever, he had to wait until he got back to England before he had a pillow, so he used to sleep with his arm underneath the back of his head, that’s how they had to sleep, they had no pillow or anything, very hungry all the time, as far as medical conditions, facilities were concerned I don’t know, I would have thought they were pretty basic if at all, whether they had a camp doctor I don’t know, I don’t know, I’d have to check on that
CB: Ok. We’ll stop on that.
DJ: Did prisoner of war camps have doctors?
CB: Probably. German.
DJ: They would of course
CB: If they captured people, they would [unclear].
DJ: Right.
CB: Spoke earlier about the Canadian doctor in the hospital, what do you know other than that?
DJ: I’m not sure if it was a hospital, my father spoke about a Canadian doctor, now, whether that was someone who worked in the hospital in Germany with the Germans or subsequently was a captured doctor in the prisoner of war camp I don’t know, probably the latter would have been the case, I can’t imagine the Germans sort of bringing in a Canadian doctor to help them in their hospitals, pretty bad on the payroll I wouldn’t have thought so, so it’s more than likely he was actually in the prisoner of war camp and helped at the, after being discharged from the hospital and that is probably nearer the truth
CB: In view of what your father said, did he ever make contact with that man or try to make contact with him?
DJ: Not that I know of, no, no. Not at all, not that I know of. But bear in mind, I was born in 1953, so whether he did turn up at the house prior to my being born or a few years after I’ve been born, I don’t know, I don’t remember. Dad certainly never spoke about it, other than this Canadian doctor and that was [unclear] helped him
CB: Apart from his experience with the aircraft, what else did he talk about his being dramatic because some of the earlier operations he went on as in raids were fairly dramatic, what
DJ: Yes, he used to talk about Berlin, they had, his crew at 106 Squadron they did ten tours to Berlin, which was quite a lot
CB: Ten ops
DJ: Ten ops, sorry, ten ops, not ten tours, ten ops, my apologies, three hundred missions to Berlins, ten ops to Berlin
CB: Yeah
DJ: One of them I know because it is on the records upstairs, they were hit by flak and also attacked by a fighter that night and lost one engine so they returned with three engines from Berlin all the way back to Metheringham, their base in Lincolnshire, I know that, that’s the only one Dad really used to speak other than the rest of them which were just missions, he just, it was a job to be done, one mission paled into insignificance with another mission, you know, it was just one mission after another really, had he had the choice he probably wouldn’t have wanted to go on any of them, but they just did their job
CB: Just picking up on what you said earlier about the cohesion of the crew, they tended to speak from experience of interviews as the family, what about when they were off operations? Any idea of what they did in their spare time?
DJ: [clears throat] No. I know they used to drink together around, they would go to a local pub around Metheringham or go into Lincoln together. Other than that I don’t know, bear in mind that Fred Mifflin was from Newfoundland so his family would’ve been in Newfoundland so I suspect he’d been quite close to the crew, keeping them together and then the rest of the crew would have known that so they looked after their skipper and the rest from various parts of the country, so they would have spent a lot of time together as a family, a family unit.
CB: I’ll stop there again. Thank you.
DJ: Maybe my father always spoke about the rear gunner who was killed that night
CB: The time when he got out of the plane
DJ: Yeah
CB: Well he
DJ: Well, he, the rear gunner, Dad said, was injured in the first attack
CB; Oh, right.
DJ: He was hit. Now Dad said, he probably would’ve never survived a parachute jump, now whether that was the reason why my father decided to do what he did or not, I don’t know, now that may be the reason, he was very good friends with Fred Mifflin the pilot who was also killed that night, my father said or Sandy Sandeland the wireless operator actually said they did both manage to get out of the aircraft, he saw them, Fred Mifflin was, Johnny Johnson was near the escape hatch at the back of the aircraft, Fred Mifflin was released, he was standing up, ready to move away from the controls, the Germans say they were both found within the aircraft, Sandy Sandeland always said that they got out of the aircraft and they were killed on the ground, so there was a little bit of disagreement there about what happened and my father says, knowing how aircrew were treated when they were off for a bombing mission on a village or town or city, he believed they were killed on the ground but we don’t know, there’s another story that Fred Mifflin and Johnny Johnson were very good friends, Johnny Johnson was injured, couldn’t survive the parachute jump so stayed with the aircraft and tried to bring it down, that’s another story, whether it’s true or not I don’t know, my father didn’t know, he was not in the aircraft but my father always believed they were killed on the ground and not in the aircraft.
CB: Ok.
DJ: Was one of those things you could never prove either way, really
CB: Yes, it’s difficult to deal with
DJ: Yeah.
CB: Now, we’ve covered dramatic things here but there was some good sides so how did your parents come to meet in the first place?
DJ: My father, actually my mother told this story that the way they met was my father used to cycle to the engineering works which was in Richmond from Twickenham, my mother lived in Twickenham at the time and Dad used to cycle past her daily and whistle and then wink. My mother used to obviously totally ignore him and then there was a dance one night at a club in Twickenham and that was where my father saw my Mum and approached her and asked her to dance, I think my mother refused, my father wouldn’t go away, kept on asking and eventually my mother gave in and that’s where it started. That was it.
CB: Persistent man.
DJ: A man who knew what he wanted, I think
CB: So how long did it take him to
DJ: Well, that would’ve been in 1938 to ’39, just prior to him joining up. Bear in mind my mother was born in 1922 so at that time she would’ve been sixteen years of age, coming on seventeen, so a young girl. They married in ’42 when she was twenty. And it was just prior to the war
CB: And then the decision on getting married, how did that work? Cause he’s been away for a bit.
DJ: Yeah, he was sent away, I think they actually were quite close and got engaged I believe in 1940 if I remember correctly and then my father was sent to North Africa, Freetown, North West Africa
CB: Sierra Leone
DJ: Indeed and was there until ’42 and my mother didn’t know where he was, received the odd letter but that was it, gone, and came back in ’42, September, they got back together and the, arranged their wedding for Boxing Day of that year and that was it. Happy ever since.
CB: But most of the war, [unclear] after that ‘42
DJ: Yeah.
CB: Then they were, father was still around
DJ: He, he was in the UK
CB: In the UK, so, how did they live together or did [unclear]?
DJ: No, they
CB: They lived apart all the time
DJ: They, Mum lived in Twickenham, in Church Street, Twickenham.
CB: Right.
DJ: She had a flat there, which my father used to visit when he was off duty, all the time my father was on duty, he would’ve been stationed at the airfield at Metheringham or Syerston first and then Metheringham
CB: Yeah, she didn’t move up to Lincolnshire
DJ: No, she didn’t, she stayed in Twickenham, that’s where she was
CB: And then after the war,
DJ: Yeah
CB: He was still in the RAF
DJ: He was
CB: So, the same arrangement continued
DJ: No, well, bear in mind that my father came back at the end of the war in Europe, he then was still stationed in the RAF, my mother was still living in Twickenham. Come ’46, he left the Royal Air Force, they then took a house in Whitton, which is near Twickenham, a rented accommodation while my father was looking for some land to build a house and that he found in Burtons Road Hampton Hill not far from there and then built the bungalow
CB: What do you know about how he came back from the prison camp? Because he wasn’t in the long march, you said
DJ: I don’t believe the march that was spoken about was the long march, it may well have been
CB: No, that’s right. Yeah.
DJ: But I don’t know, I don’t believe it was [coughs], I’m sure my father would have mentioned that, I think a lot of people died on that march, I don’t think it was that one, sorry [unclear]. [coughs] What did he say about that? I can’t remember much about it at all
CB: How did he actually get back to Britain? Was he flown back or [unclear]?
DJ: Again, I don’t know whether he was on a boat or actually flown back, I don’t know, a lot of the prisoners of war were flown back
CB: They were in Operation Exodus, yes
DJ: So, it may well be that he was flown back but he never spoke about it and I never asked him the question
CB: Ok. Right. Well, David Jackson thank you very much for a most interesting.
DJ: An absolute pleasure, Chris.
CB: Just. Parents give advice to families and children all the time. So, what was your father’s what shall I say recommendation that you should do in life?
DJ: Well, one thing I can remember my father saying to all of us was that, just remember, you don’t have to prove anything to anybody and personally I never quite knew what he meant by that until we were at school when everybody it seemed wanted to challenge you or expected you to step up to the mark where a challenge was involved, this was even with the school teachers who, if there was a rugby game, football game, whatever, they would expect you to excel in what you were doing because
CB: Because of your father was a VC
DJ: Because of my father, yeah. And it really was difficult to live up to thatt a lot of the time, very difficult
CB: Right
PJ: You’re down?
CB: Well, we keep going. No, let’s just. Penny is here now, so let’s just get a bit of reflection on other things. What do you remember about your father-in-law, although you didn’t meet him very often?
PJ: I met him over about a two- or three-year period but the first time I met him, I knocked at the front door and he opened the door and he went, hello, who are you? And I said, my name is Penny and I’m here to see David. Just a minute, [unclear] over his shoulder and shouted, David! One of your girlfriends is here! That’s my first meeting with Norman Jackson. We had a few more like that afterwards, didn’t we?
DJ: Wonderful man!
PJ: [laughs] Oh, you want me to add that bit. Wonderful man! [laughs]
CB: And you did meet him again. And what did he say the second time?
PJ: Oh, I don’t remember the second time, I can remember
CB: Other times
PJ: I can remember a few wedding receptions, family wedding receptions where we went to where he’d rather stayed in the pub than gone to the wedding reception
CB: Right
PJ: And we had to help him out, didn’t we?
DJ: Yeah
PJ: We assisted him out of various pubs
DJ: He’d rather stay at the bar with his whisky rather than go to the actual function itself, yeah
PJ: Yes
CB: Well, he was a man who distributed lemonade as a whisky
PJ: True
CB: As a job
PJ: Oh, that’s a good excuse
CB: You’ve gotta have confidence in your product
DJ: Absolutely
CB: You must try it out
PJ: Of course
DJ: I used to [unclear] He was a John Hague man through and through, absolutely
CB: A man of great belief
PJ: He was
DJ: And conviction
CB: Conviction
PJ: He was a lovely man, very lovely man, nice family man, good heart
CB: How did, the two of you, what was your perspective of the lack of a Bomber memorial or a lack of a memorial to the bomber crews?
DJ: Well, I know what my father’s opinion on that was. Really, upset him quite a lot and personally I couldn’t understand why, I know a lot more about why now and even though a lot of people who come up with reasons why it shouldn’t have been put up need to really go back and relearn their history because their facts are wrong, totally wrong and it was shame that Winston Churchill really dismissed [unclear] knowledge with Bomber Command at the end of the war, I think that was a start a bit really but I know my father was very upset by the lack of the memorial to these guys and would’ve been very, very happy to have been at the unveiling of the memorial in Green Park had us talking when that happened but to wait so long after the end of the Second World War for a memorial to the service that had the highest loss rate of any of the services is unthinkable really, I can’t answer [unclear] just unthinkable
CB: Thinking of the history of this, bearing in mind the Germans were practicing in the Spanish civil war, what were the main things that stick in your mind about what the Germans did originally?
DJ: Originally by starting the Second World War
CB: Then the bombing context
DJ: I think that the bombing context of the German Luftwaffe, maybe the bombing of cities you could almost say happened by accident, Coventry was meant to be a reprisal for what happened with the bombing of Munich by RAF following Hitler’s speech in Munich at that time. The bombing of London was meant to be a mistake by one bomber that basically had navigation had gone wrong and ended up in the East End of London and dropped his bombs during the Battle of Britain but if that’s true then what happened in the Spanish civil war, places like Guernica
CB: Guernica
DJ: Guernica which was basically used as a proving ground for the bombing tactics of the Luftwaffe, in my view they always had the intention of destroying whatever they could destroy. I think that the Germans, the Second World War was the First World War almost as it evolved into was not like a normal war that beknown before it was total war and it involved everybody within the country, absolutely everybody. I do think that the Allies fought the Second World War as indeed the First World War with a degree of humanity. I don’t believe that the Nazis, I think for them humanity didn’t exist.
CB: You talked earlier about when father landed and by parachute and the reaction of with the comment Terror Flieger. Could you just for the record here explain what Terror Flieger, what they meant by that?
DJ: A flier that delivers terror. Probably in today’s terminology a terrorist. And I believe, and my father always understood it, these German cities were suffering night after night and so that’s how he understood it, as a person delivering terror, to people who as far as I’m sure, that man who lived in that cottage was concerned, they didn’t deserve it. Maybe he wasn’t aware of Germany’s position within the Second World War or the reasons for the Second World War. He knew what he was being told, whether that was the truth, who knows. But if the, where the Nazis were concerned, I doubt it. But I’m sure he looked at my father as someone that was pretty awful [laughs] and should, you know, should have been treated pretty bad, abominably really and not with any humanity at all. That’s what I think.
CB: And he’s unlikely to have known what was happening in London, Coventry, Liverpool, Belfast, Portsmouth, Plymouth, all these places
DJ: No, I don’t believe that at all, and I think we’re talking about a different time where people weren’t, where news wasn’t as readily available as it is today, I’m sure he would’ve been aware of the rise to power of Adolf Hitler and the aims of Adolf Hitler, whether he considered the rest of Europe was to blame, the Allies [unclear] the rest of Europe, for what was happening in Germany towards the end of the war and it was ill deserved as far as Germany was concerned I don’t know, but I’m sure, when he said Terror Flieger, he meant that these people, these Royal Air Force during the night, at night and the American Air Force during the day were delivering terror that was ill deserved on the German cities. [unclear] sure was what he meant.
CB: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with David Jackson
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-11-30
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJacksonDM171130
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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01:25:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Second generation
Description
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David Jackson tells of his father, Norman Jackson VC, born in Ealing, London in 1919 and who worked in an engineering company when the war broke out. After initially trying to join the navy, he then joined the RAF and classified as a fitter on engines. He was then posted to 95 Squadron and trained on Sunderland flying boats before remustering as a flight engineer. David gives a detailed and vivid account of his father’s operation to Schweinfurt on the 27th of April 1944, which earned him the Victoria Cross: although he had reached his 30 operations with 106 Squadron, he volunteered to join the aircrew to see them through, making this his thirty first operation; the aircraft was attacked by an enemy fighter and racked by cannon fire; with the aircraft on fire, Norman decided to exit the plane in order to extinguish the flames. At the second attack, Norman was blown off the aircraft and landed in enemy territory, breaking both ankles and suffering serious injuries on his hands. He reached a German village, where he was indignantly called “Terror Flieger”, taken into custody, paraded through the streets and taken for treatment to hospital, where he spent ten months. Afterwards he was interned in a prisoner of war camp. David remembers when his father was invested with the Victoria Cross at Buckingham Palace and met Leonard Cheshire. David remembers his father flying ten operations to Berlin and tells of one on which they were attacked by enemy fire and lost one engine. David tells of the legal issues regarding his father’s medals and how they ended up in the Imperial War Museum after being sold at an auction. He discusses his father’s views on the lack of recognition to the aircrews after the war and debates the bombing context of the German Luftwaffe.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--London
England--Nottinghamshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Schweinfurt
Temporal Coverage
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1944-04-27
106 Squadron
95 Squadron
aircrew
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
fitter engine
flight engineer
ground crew
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
memorial
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
RAF Halton
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
Sunderland
training
Victoria Cross
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/896/11136/AInkpenH160712.2.mp3
769d6de8ba72622ffed198bb128df8ce
Dublin Core
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Title
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Inkpen, Harry
H Inkpen
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flying Officer Harry Inkpen. He flew 33 operations as a pilot with 162 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Inkpen, H
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anne Brodie, the interviewee is Harry Inkpen. The interview is taking place at Mr. Inkpen’s home in [redacted] Ryde, Isle of Wight, on the 12th of July 2016.
HI: Thank you. Right.
AB: If you’d like just to tell us a bit about your service in the RAF?
HI: Now I talk now? What do I do, talk now?
AB: Yes, you can talk in there, and then it’s hearing there.
HI: It’ll pick it up?
AB: Yeah. It’s picking it up. I can see.
HI: Ah yes. I joined Bomber Command in November 1944 and that was one of the headquarters with number 8 group based in Huntington, Cambridgeshire and the commanding officer was Group Captain Don Bennett, subsequently he was an air vice marshal but he was a remarkable man, not only was he an ace pilot but he was a remarkable navigator in his own right. We started to, the operations with my navigator for our first tour together. The tour was supposed to be thirty five attacks on Germany. In the end, we only did thirty three, because the war ended in April and we were two short of the target, not that that mattered, but we joined 162 Squadron, a Mosquito squadron for markers for Pathfinders and we operated from Bourne in Lincolnshire, that was the aerodrome, and we shared the aerodrome with 105 Squadron, another Mosquito squadron who were master, master markers, they marked the target before we went in. The, when we were first into the Mosquito, as a pilot I fell in love with the aircraft because I’d never seen such a beautiful thing in my life. It had two Rolls Royce engines and the body was all wood and it was called the wooden wonder because it was a real wonder. I think the top speed, straight level, was four hundred and fifty miles an hour. In that day, that was very fast and this was how we had no defence against enemy fighters because we relied entirely on our speed and nothing could catch us. The German Air Marshall Goering was our main enemy, he was, they were very, the Luftwaffe were very, very good but our, really our very worst enemy was General Winter and that was the weather. Because from 1944 to over into ‘45 the weather was atrocious, on our operations, the thirty three trips we did we never lost, personally we weren’t even harmed on those trips but we had terrible troubles with the weather. And our number 162 Squadron, if I remember rightly, never lost an aircraft over Germany, but we lost twelve aircraft on take-off and landing because of ice, snow, fog, et cetera and that was our real enemy. The, can I pause there?
[recording paused]
AB: Okay [unclear].
HI: Of the thirty three raids that we did, Joe and I, seventeen of them were onto Berlin and Berlin, we never talked about Berlin, it was called, it was called the Big City, we used to say, we are going to the Big City and it was seventeen times we went there. It was very well defended because as the war was drawing to a close, it was in the last six months and Germany was being forced back towards Berlin, all of their anti-aircraft guns, all their searchlights, most of their defences were concentrated on Berlin, so when we were told it was a Berlin night, we knew we were in for some fight. They were very clever, the Germans, they had, they could pick us up on radar and on our instrument panel there were three little lights, if one of them, there was two red lights and a white light, if the red light first came on, it means the radar was actually picking us up, if the red light came on, it means the actual guns were firing and within a few seconds there will be a burst and if the white light came on there was a fighter on your tail, which was very, very helpful, now I only had once, when the red light came on, and the immediate action to do was to turn away smartly and drop down and just above you would be the bursts of the anti-aircraft fire, very clever and I only once had the white light came on which was when a fighter was on your tail and the only fighter that could catch us was the new Messerschmitt 262 which was a jet aircraft, now he could, he could catch us easily, he actually had to throttle back so that he could stay on our tail, now he got on the tail, the white light came on and the tracer went over the top, ‘cause immediately I dropped down and the tracer went over the top so that was really the only problem we had with the defences but the, so if you got caught with the searchlight it was rather remarkable, they had four blue searchlights around Berlin, North, South, East and West and the blue searchlight was radar controlled, if it came on, you could look on the end of it and there was an aircraft, it picked it up straight away and then all the other searchlights were white and they were called the slaves, that was the master searchlight and the white lights were the slaves and they then came right onto the plane, now once only we happened not, we weren’t personally caught but one of the slaves caught us in the light, it was a remarkable experience because one moment you’re in total darkness and the next moment you’re in blinding light and it is blinding light and the only way out of that is to go down straight down the searchlight so when it, when we were in this terrible light, I went straight down it to about five hundred miles an hour and then pulled up and lost it but quite an unusual experience and the other amazing experience was coming back from Berlin when we had dropped our bombs and we got as far as Hanau, H-A-N-A-U, which was a fairly big German city and they had some, a few good defences but we were roundabout thirty thousand feet, that’s nearly six miles high and quite unknown to us, both of the engines stopped, now if you can imagine, nearly six miles high an engine stopping, that is something very unusual, now not only did the engine stop, but the aircraft flipped over and it dropped from thirty thousand feet to eighteen thousand and not because of me but my hand was on the throttle and actually hoping to God the aircraft would come back again the engines and suddenly they came on and the relief was unbelievable and the power of the engines shot us forward, my navigator had disappeared down at the bomb bay and he came up rather shocked and I said, ‘I can’t believe it, Tom, we’re flying’ and the aircraft righted itself and flew on and we stayed at eighteen thousand feet and came home. Now, how that happened we checked afterwards to think what could possibly have stopped two Merlin engines and the current thought was that there’d been a burst of enemy anti-aircraft fire, a big burst and it had left a vacuum in the air and we had flown into the vacuum and because the engine could not get oxygen, the engine stopped and that was, that was the technical reason, the explanation but I was only too happy to say we were alive and home. And that was another remarkable explanation. Now the other, I’m telling you the highlights not the general, just run of the mill but the other experience we had, we got as far across the North Sea on another occasion and as we’d been two and a half hours away, by the time we got to the English coast, the North Sea fog had slowly crept in and the whole of the east coast, all the aerodromes were blotted out with ground fog which came up to a thousand feet, we went down to a thousand feet and we were completely blotted out in fog, we got through on the radio and from Bourne and they told us we must go to a nearby aerodrome thirty miles away which was not clear but it had FIDO on the aerodrome, F-I-D-O, and that’s Fog Instant Dispersal Operation and it’s, there’s two lines of metal strips running down the airfield perforated with flames coming out and it burned the fog away and it was quite remarkable, they gave us a course to this aerodrome and as we were going through the fog, which was grey and white, grey and white colour, as we got nearer to the point where we knew the airport should be, it started to turn yellow and then it turned bright yellow and then we realised we must be right over the aerodrome but we couldn’t see it, but what I did, I did a four minute time course on instruments to go round the airport and coming in on my last leg, I lowered down to five hundred feet and at five hundred feet suddenly the fog stopped just like, as if somebody had lifted a cloud and right in front of you was the airport with these two strips of flames, now these flames were six feet high each side and we landed, you could feel the heat, and there was a few gaps down the side where you get off and Joe said, ‘For God’s sake, don’t swerve’ because we should be roasted because we’d have gone into the flames so we found a gap and got off and the first time my navigator really any showed any great emotion, he just put his arm on my shoulder, he said, ‘Thank God we’re down’, I said, ‘Joe, I couldn’t agree with you more.’ And after that, we went in and saved the night and forgot all about it. Can I stop there for a bit?
[recording paused]
AB: Right.
HI: Aircrew are very suspicious, superstitious people, they’d all have some little gimmick that they carry with them, hoping it might give them some luck, in my case, on my right hand, I always wore my father’s gold ring, and on my left hand, I wore a silver ring which I had made from a silver dollar in America where I was learnt to fly in 1941 I gave an Indian, Navaho Indian a silver dollar and said, would you make me a silver ring?
US: [unclear]
HI: And that and he did and that flew with me and my father’s ring all through the war, all through the operations against Germany and I think it did me very, very well. In the case of my navigator, he was a bit of a lad on the ground was my navigator but in the air he was a remarkable man and quite so capable that I had fully reliance on him and what he did I saw he had something round his neck when he was flying and when I looked at it I said, ‘What’s the scarf you’ve got on then?’ No, no, no,’ he said, ‘That’s a petticoat.’ I said, ‘Oh yeah?’ ‘Yes, a silk petticoat, it’s a blue silk petticoat, and it’s from my current girlfriend’, and he said, ‘I always fly with that.’ I said, ‘I’m so pleased you got something to hold onto even if it’s only a petticoat’, well, halfway through the tour, I then noticed it wasn’t a blue petticoat, but it was a yellow petticoat, and I said, ‘You know, what’s the change of colour?’ ‘Well’, he said, ‘We had a little bit of a tiff, and I’ve moved on.’ So that was why, that was a little bit of unusual thing,
US: [unclear]
HI: About superstitious [recording paused]
HI: When I think that there was, in Bomber Command, those terrible losses, all of those fellows on average would have been carrying something and all those little gifts and [unclear] had gone forever and never been recorded but in my case they did me a favour,
[recording paused]
HI: As far as I can remember, because security was so great in the war, nobody said anything about anything but as far as I know 162 Squadron was, the Mosquito squadron that I was on was the only one that never actually suffered a loss through the enemy, we suffered a twelve, a loss of twelve crews through bad weather, fog, ice, snow and crashes, particularly running short of fuel and going into the North Sea and but we only lost through, purely through weather, bad weather and the weather was so bad, up to nowadays people wouldn’t be flying in it, they wouldn’t be allowed to fly in it but in the war, you didn’t question it, if you flew, you went and that was it, that was, that’s and therefore I can’t remember hearing of any other Mosquito, Pathfinder Squadron who actually lost a plane over Germany, they all lost through bad weather.
[recording paused]
HI: Okay, we are now talking about the last leg into the target, which had to be very accurately flown because the bombsight in the nose of the aircraft was pre-set before the actual aircraft took off, so in the, on the bombsight, if it was Berlin, let’s say it was set at thirty thousand feet and the speed had to be four hundred and fifty miles an hour, the wind had to be, already been calculated, that was put into the bombsight and heading for the last leg, say had to be three hundred and sixty degrees, now all that was actually put into the bombsight before we took off but on the last leg into the target, when the navigator went down to drop the four bombs, which were incidentally were four five hundred pound bombs, he had to know bomb is watch, exactly the time when he pressed the button and said, bomb’s gone, because it was dictated by the bombsight, we were, what we were doing exactly what the bombsight told us to do and that was most important, we actually dropped four five hundred pound bombs, three of them were instantaneous and the fourth was had a twenty four hour delay on it, which was a hope to confuse the enemy when they were trying to clear up that another bomb went off but when they were released and you lost a thousand pounds worth of bombs, the aircraft would jump quite visibly and it was a very pleasing sight.
[recording paused]
HI: To qualify for Mosquitos, certainly for Bomber Command, you had to, a pilot had to have a minimum of a thousand hours flying experience and also had a very high instrument rating because as everything was at night you’d require, you relied entirely on instruments, you you must have an absolute trust in instruments to qualify for this and that’s why it was very difficult to get on to a Mosquito squadron but I was very, very happy that I did because it was an experience I’ll never forget and those qualifications came in very useful in the end, also my lucky rings were a bit of a charm,
[recording paused]
HI: In the Air Force were really going back to school because you were always in class, always learning navigation, mathematics were very high on that and aircraft recognition, firing guns, all all ground work and studies took quite a year on the ground and then suddenly you were selected for, to be a pilot, which was the what you were trying to get to and been aiming all the time, when you, when you became selected to be a pilot, you, they put a white flash in your helmet to designate that you were a pilot and not anybody else and then of course we were sent over to Canada and we went from Gourock on the Clyde out into a troop ship, which was SS Louis Pasteur, which was commandeered from the French, we pinched one of their liners, and we ‘propated it into a troop ship, we went up by via Greenland to try and avoid the submarines and then ended up in Halifax near Brunswick
US: Nova Scotia.
HI: As a gathering point and from then on we moved into New Brunswick to Moncton, New Brunswick which was for pilots only, selected for pilots only and the destination from there could only be Florida, South Africa or America. Now, everybody wanted America because, number one, America hadn’t actually entered the war, we were still at war with Germany but, they had never declared war on America so we were sent down by train right down the Saint Lawrence to Toronto, then on to the East Coast line, the West Coast line to Texas, through Texas to Arizona to the little town of Mesa, Arizona, which is an offshoot of Phoenix and Mesa was where the aerodrome was. And of course, we were, there was only fifty of us, fifty English boys, all in civilian clothes because we weren’t allowed to wear a uniform, we were we were entered as visitors and treated as visitors so to get us a training at that time they wanted fighter pilots because it was 1941 and we were seconded to the American Army Air Force as a fighter pilot under training and that was only for a few days and in December, the 8th my birthday, Pearl Harbour happened, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and America, and then Germany declared war on America, and at that point we were allowed to have uniforms flown down from Canada and suddenly we became air force people and not civilians and then we went to the English British Flying Training School at Mesa, Falcon Field and we were trained there as fighter, to be fighter pilots and my instructor was a civilian, American civilian, he’d been a crop-duster, he’d been an aerobatic pilot in air shows and he’d signed on with the Americans to train pilots and my fortune was that he trained me and he was old enough to be my father and to me, I respected him as my father, and that man taught me to fly and he did me the biggest favour anybody can ever do, and he got me solo in six hours, which was almost a record, but he’s taught me always, because I taught thousands of people to fly after that, and he always taught me to tell them, when you step into an aircraft, you become part of the aircraft, you are not an alien, you are part of it, do exactly what you do with it and from then on I used to tell everybody the same story, and that man taught me to fly, now when I eventually went solo at six hours, we passed on to advanced training to really high quality Harvards and then that was the end and we were told we had our wings, we were made sergeants and we, they pinned the wings on our chest and we were on our way to go home to England. And of course I went back to Canada and this time still to Halifax and this time we got on the troop ship called the Duchess of Atholl, and she was nicknamed the Drunken Duchess because she was a pretty bad ride, she was a luxury liner commandeered as a troop ship but she was pretty rough and we had a very rough passage going over, we went as far as we could up to Greenland and back to Europe but on the way back, we sunk the, had four destroyers as escorts personally for our boat and they left us and went off to laying minefield, depth charges in a circle, and I witnessed the most amazing thing because all these depth charges exploded and suddenly a submarine appeared in the middle, they’d actually got him and when he, when the submarine appeared, every gun from every ship fired at this because they were so delighted and they sank the submarine and after that, we went on quite peacefully to Gourock and from then on we went to Bournemouth, you know that was another point, and there we were sorted out into groups, they’d suddenly realised in 1942, they didn’t want fighter pilots, so we’d been trained as fighter pilots, so here we go, what are we gonna do? So they selected, were you good at instrument flying? Yes, okay. So then, I then went on a course on twin engines because they wanted bomber pilots, so when I did the course on twin engined Oxfords they realised, I did a lot of night flying, and they realised I was fairly good on instruments and also they thought, I could well teach people to to actually fly at night so then I went to Upavon on Salisbury Plain which was the Central Flying School of the RAF and that dated back to the First World War and the mess there had a big fire in it, in the fireplace and over it was a vast propeller and it was from a Zeppelin [unclear] shot down at the First World War, so that was the Central Flying School of the RAF and I had to pass through that to become a flying instructor. When I became a flying instructor, I was sent to Flying Training Command which was at South Cerney in Oxfordshire and South Cerney was the base but they had many satellite aerodromes which were all training aircraft for Oxfords, twin engine aircraft and from then on I trained people on twin engine Oxfords at night flying so I gathered a hell of a lot of night flying hours and hence a lot of night night instrument flying and in that time I was quite a few years with Flying Training Command doing just that, I had one slight respite when I was taken away to train people to fly Horsa gliders, for God’s sake, and they were army officers or army sergeants drafted from the army to just learn to land an aircraft, that’s all, you had to take them up, show them how to take off, but they wanted to know when you cut the engine, how to glide because they were going to be glider pilots and for about two months I trained people to fly that, just fly the Tiger Moth and glide till they knew the angle and from then on I moved on from there back to Flying Training Command and then to twin engines but for me in that little period they took me to Brize Norton and let me actually get in a glider, a Horsa glider so I had the experience of being co-pilot in a Horsa glider with thirty five men in the fully armed back and a landing jeep and a machine gun at the back of me and I remember being towed up by a Lancaster and then at the point of return everything suddenly went silent, the nose dipped and the aircraft took a very steep dive, I reached about a hundred miles an hour and all I could think of was thirty five men in a jeep and a gun in my back and are we gonna land alright and he made a perfect landing and that’s the first time I’d ever been in a glider but I had the experience, I think that was it. So, you see, it’s varied.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Harry Inkpen
Creator
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Anne Brodie
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AInkpenH160712
Format
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00:31:54 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1944
1945
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Inkpen joined Bomber Command in November 1944 and flew 33 operations on Mosquitoes as a pilot on 162 Squadron. Tells of how, in his view, his squadron had more losses because of bad weather conditions than because of encounters with the enemy. He flew 17 operations to Berlin and talks about the German defences and searchlight organisation. Recounts a harrowing experience of the aircraft’s engines suddenly stopping while returning from Berlin. Tells of aircrew superstitions: he wore his father’s ring as a lucky charm; his navigator carried a silk petticoat. Remembers being caught in fog returning from an operation and managing to land thanks to FIDO. Recounts travelling to Canada and America, where was trained as a pilot. Mentions the sinking of a U-boat on the way back from Canada. Remembers training army officers to fly Horsa gliders.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
162 Squadron
4 BFTS
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
British Flying Training School Program
FIDO
Horsa
Mosquito
Oxford
Pathfinders
pilot
radar
RAF Bourn
RAF South Cerney
searchlight
submarine
superstition
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/890/11129/PHumesEL1701.2.jpg
b7e2bdab74eff6b6808ac8b8bdfd9361
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/890/11129/AHumesEL170826.1.mp3
8e7d785f41f1ca0887f9c3ad8481803a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Humes, Eddie
Edward L Humes
E L Humes
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Eddie Humes (b. 1922, 642170 Royal Air Force), RAF personnel document and a memoir. After serving in Balloon Command, he flew operations as a navigator with 514 Squadron
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Eddie Humes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Humes, EL
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Eddie Humes today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Eddie’s home and it is the 26th of August 2017. So first of all, thank you Eddie for agreeing to talk to me today. So, did you want to tell me about your time before the war?
EH: Well, before the war, I left school at fifteen, with my ‘tric but didn’t follow education through partly because of the circumstances at home, you know. We had a big family and needed workers and employment situation was bad unless you wanted to go in the mines and my parents didn’t want me to go into the mines so we had a little bit of an argument and eventually they agreed to me going to the RAF and the following, follow on is printed in just another story so there’s no point in me going on that. Uhm, I got my wish eventually, I got onto aircrew, that’s in there as well. I joined in on the 3rd of May 1939 and did my basic training, drills and what have you, and then expected to be posted to be a rigger on aircraft but the war was imminent and when we met to be told where we were going, I was told I was going to a balloon squadron and it didn’t please me very much and but the comment from the powers that be was you’re in the Air Force now, you do as you’re told so I was posted to a balloon centre, training centre and stayed there till I passed my exams. And then I joined a squadron where 90% of the people on it were over fifty, they were auxiliaries who at night and that was their choice to be balloon operators, I wasn’t very happy but that was the situation. Finished the training, went to a cricket ground in Leyton, Essex and our billet if you like, put it that way was a tennis hut which housed twelve of us with cold water and nothing else virtually and our balloon was flown from there and I kept asking, could I transfer to aircrew but nobody wanted to know. Fortunately I played football fairly well and on one occasion when we were coming back, I spoke to one of the officers and he said, make another application straight away, so I made another application to transfer to aircrew and they sent me to a drifter on the Thames to fly balloons from a drifter on the Thames which was, again wasn’t very nice, a) it was at the mouth of the Thames and we got the incoming tide, the outcoming tide which, I wasn’t a sailor, it didn’t suit me very much, there were half a dozen airmen and half a dozen old, very old sailors, fishermen and sometimes we got the balloon up before the German fighters came, other times we didn’t and if we didn’t get it up, then we were strafed. Fortunately, I was posted back into the East End of London onto another balloon site, which had few younger people than I was used to previously and it was during the Blitz, there were all sorts of stories but they don’t want. Uhm, and then my posting came through, did I still want to go to aircrew? And I was in, a week I was in St John’s Wood with lots of other people a) who were transferred and b) who had just joined up and we were there for two or three weeks and then posted to St Andrews in Scotland, the university, and we did our training, were billeted overlooking the golf course which was nice and we did our ground training at the university, part of it, this consisted of everything, gunnery, Morse code, astro, everything, and when that was finished again as a result of football I had a leg injury and I, I wasn’t there for the passing out parade sadly but we were then posted to Manchester, which was a holding centre, and at Manchester normally you stayed for two, maybe three weeks and you were posted abroad, you were told what you were going to be, and you were posted abroad. We were told, I was told that, we were on parade, that there was going to be, that I was going to be trained as a navigator, I didn’t mind that even though I’d flown and soloed I didn’t mind that at all but there were some Belgian pilots there who had already flown against the German Air Force and they were reclassified as navigators as well, so they turned off and went down to the Belgian embassy and we never saw them anymore. But we’d been there, dozen of us had been there about getting on twelve weeks and we talked among ourselves and they designated me as the senior airman only because I’d been in the Air Force the longest, to go and see the adjutant and I did that and the adjutant said, ‘You’re not here’. I said, ‘I am here, obviously, and there are a dozen others beside me’, and he made a few enquiries and he said, ‘Right, you better go off home on leave’ and we went on leave and ‘We’ll call for you when we need you’. And about three weeks afterwards we were called back and expected to be posted abroad like everybody else but unfortunately, we were posted to Bridgnorth. And we did the remaining of our ground training at Bridgnorth. And then from Bridgnorth we went, up to this time the only aeroplane we’d seen was Tiger Moths at school in Scotland. And we went from Bridgnorth to Dumfries to do our flying training and there we were in pairs, two trainee navigators to each aeroplane, we flew on Ansons, sometimes in the morning, sometimes during the day, sometimes in the evening, that was quite an experience, and obviously we were putting into practice all that we learned on the ground. Getting near the end, when we were getting near to our examinations, people came in from that’d been trained in Canada and they’re already sporting their brevets and their stripes, commissioned, badges and so on, which didn’t please us very much, and it pleased us less when we were paired up with them to fly and they’d never flown over a darkened city, all their flying had been done over places where there were lights and they had to learn practically all over again at night-time. Anyway, we got over it and obviously satisfied the examiners and got our stripes and so on, went on leave and were posted to Chipping Warden, that’s in Oxfordshire and there we met the Wellington for the first time and met crews, pilots, air gunners, bomb aimers, all the rest of it. And you had a couple of weeks to wander about and get to know people in between lectures and then you were gathered together and you were expected to crew up there, some did, some didn’t but it was voluntary, you weren’t directed to anybody and said you’ve got to fly with him, you’ve got to fly with him, it was voluntary. And then you complete so many hours on Wellingtons, we had pilot, bomb aimer, navigator, wireless operator, rear gunner, five and then at the end of your training, if you passed satisfactory for the officer commander, we went on leave and then you got a posting to your conversion unit and when I got to the conversion unit, it was Lancasters and we were, well, I was surprised because they had radial engines, they didn’t have inline engines but that’s what we were going to fly, Lancaster IIs and the place that we were at was called Little Snoring which is a particularly peculiar name, but we did our further training on there, we picked up another gunner, mid-upper gunner and an engineer, completed the training, posted to Foulsham to join 115 Squadron and when we got to 115 Squadron, we thought 115 Squadron, but we were told, no, you’re not, you’re forming 514 so we were then into 514. We transferred, took aircraft from Foulsham, flew to Waterbeach and we were very happy at Waterbeach because it was a peace time aerodrome and all the buildings were brick, hot and cold water, bathrooms and so on and so on. So then we again, we settled as a crew and had to do all sorts of training until we were called on operations. And on squadron, we were delayed going onto operations because we had to train on a new system called Gee-H, which was navigator’s job and it was something like a television, it had two, what do you call them? Two bars going across in opposite directions and when the, the underlying one, the navigator pressed the bomb, to drop the bombs, uhm that took some time because we had to do high level and low level, we had to practice near Lincoln at high level and near Heeley [?] at low level, but again, we became proficient and that was satisfactory. Our first operation was to, and there is some doubt in here, but it’s verified in the pilot’s logbook, that we went to Biarritz, which is the north of Spain, border of Spain and France and we couldn’t quite believe how easy it was ‘cause there was supposed to be other aircraft there but we didn’t see any other aircraft and we didn’t have any opposition, there was no flak, nothing and when we got to Biarritz, circled round for a bit because we were supposed to wait for other aircraft but they didn’t come so, we bombed and came home. But when we got to the British coast and were heading for home, we were picked up by our own searchlights and directed west and each time we tried to turn and go home, they picked us up again and directed us west again and eventually we landed in Exeter, which was a Polish fighter ‘drome and as we landed, one of the engines packed up, so we were there for a few weeks, a couple of weeks and ordered home, we had a military escort home and when we got home, the rear gunner was getting off the train and somebody kindly helped him with his parachute but they held onto the silver handle and the thing blowed out. Well, we were in trouble when we got back to base, the navigation officer and the commanding officer didn’t like it all and they weren’t ready to believe our story, but eventually after enquiries they found that a Wellington had put out a mayday call and the observer corps had mistaken us for a Wellington and taken us to Exeter, so that was all sorted out. And we just went on, we did four or five to Berlin, Mannheim, Leipzig, but the logbook, I don’t know this, I did ten, the pilot and the rest of the crew did twelve, and I did one with another crew to Mannheim. And then, as I say, we went to Nuremberg, which wasn’t a very pleasant, and then Aachen was the next trip we were to do and the shortest virtually and that’s when we were shot down coming home from Aachen. The port wing was hit first, and then the port engine, port outer engine caught fire and the engineer was adamant that he could put it out but he didn’t for a few minutes and eventually the engine fell out and obviously the aircraft couldn’t fly on, so the skipper told us to abandon aircraft. I got smashed all the navigation instruments and so on, tore up the log and got to the escape hatch, found that it was open and the bomb aimer had done his job, opening the escape hatch, as I went to go through, I noticed that his parachute in the whole day had gone without his parachute he’d gone but his parachute was still there. And as the aircraft was spinning, I tried to get out but I couldn’t, I couldn’t get out with the force, and I pulled my own parachute, that pulled me out of the aircraft and in doing so, it broke, I broke my femur, as I say in the story, on the way down, the only person I wanted was my mother, pray to God that I’ll be alright. I hit the ground and I didn’t hear the aircraft anymore and shortly afterwards there were some foreign voices and I called for help and I called in English of course and they told me to be quiet and they were Belgians and they took me to a house, took me in there, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t see them, couldn’t see the house, couldn’t see what was inside it [unclear] blind, and when I woke up in the morning, there was a group around me and I could only assume they were praying ‘cause they were all voice were monotonous and they brought the doctor, and the doctor looked, he said, I’m sorry, I can’t do anything, you’ll have to go to hospital and the only hospital is a German hospital. So, they called the Germans and he put garden, took wood from the railings in the garden and put a splint on my leg and the Germans came to take me and the lady wouldn’t let them take my, take the, me without the sofa, I had to go on a sofa and this was verified by her daughter, whom I’ll talk about later who was there at the time and she said, my mother wouldn’t let them take you without the sofa. And then, I went to the German hospital, wondering what gonna be in front of me and they were very kind, first meal wasn’t very pleasant but they were very kind and they did the operation, they said, we’ve got to operate, there wasn’t much I could do about it, I couldn’t say no, and I was put, when the operation was completed, I was put into a room, a kind of pleasant room, with French doors and big open window, big frame window, and in traction, no plaster or anything like that, I was just in traction and there was guard inside and a guard outside and when I asked why they were there when I couldn’t walk, I was in traction, they said, it’s to stop the Belgians from coming in and taking you out. So, that was fine for a few weeks, quite enjoyed myself there, didn’t do anything of course, just talked to the German guards who wanted to, didn’t want to speak English, they wanted to speak, they didn’t want to speak German, they wanted to speak English, for when they came to England and they, they ruled England. And then one night I was, flares dropping round everywhere, you could see them out of the window, and within minutes the place would be being bombed and the hospital was very badly damaged. My ceiling came in, the door and the windows came across the cage, fortunately the cage stopped anything from dropping on me and in the morning the surgeon came, he was still in his apron, which was pretty bloody, and he had a scalpel in his hand and I thought, that’s the end for me, but it wasn’t, he was fully apologetic, and it wasn’t the Germans’ fault, it was the Air Force fault for bombing the place. Well, he said, obviously you’ve got to be moved, is not, your leg’s not ready yet to come out of traction so he said, I’ve got to take it off, you can’t be moved as you are, so they took it off, and the way I went in a back of a lorry and the lorry went over a bomb crater and I fell off and broke my leg again. We stopped overnight in a place that was a rest home for German forces and that was just overnight and of course again I had several people come to look at the strange fellow and then I went to Brussels and in the Brussels hospital we were in an annex and there were several aircrew in there, injured aircrew, American, Canadian, there was even one Italian, he wasn’t aircrew, and one Russian, who ill, they’d been put in there and we stayed there for about, I suppose, seven or eight weeks, I’m not sure. And then again, the British forces were coming and the German officer in command came in and said if we would sign a letter to say we’d been well treated, he would leave us there. So, obviously we signed it and the Germans left and on the morning, I’m not sure, the sixth or seventh of September, the British headed into Brussels but just before they came into Brussels, our doors burst open and the SS came in and we said, you know, we got this paper, well, not me, the commander senior officer said, we’ve got this paper and they just tore it up and said, you know, doesn’t mean a thing. And we were put into a bus and headed out of Brussels which was in a state of chaos because they were evacuating Brussels and Brussels, part of it was on fire. It wasn’t a pretty sight, and on the way out of Brussels, we were attacked by RAF fighters and the, there was a wing commander with us, and he took his life in his hand because the two old German guards were old like home guards, they wouldn’t get off the bus, so he tackled them and disarmed them and we got off the bus and went into a pigsty on the side of the road, and whilst we were there, three, three people made the attempt to escape. Now, I know that one of them survived and got back home because he was on our squadron and I know he got home but I don’t know what happened to the other two. And when it was all over, we were put back on board and taken to Holland. We arrived in Venlo and were, the bus was attacked by Dutch people who thought we were Germans and we were taken to a convent, excuse me. The, whoever was in charge put us on the top floor of this convent and when we asked the nuns why we were on the top floor, they said, well, it’s a tall building and maybe no one will notice you’re here. And we were there for three or four days and then one of the Canadian prisoners got a bit furious and he walked out onto the balcony and looking over and people saw him and waved and of course, as it happened, there was the Gestapo down at the bottom and we were quickly shipped off to Dusseldorf in Germany and Dusseldorf was a workers camp, French, Polish, Russians, Italians and we had a couple of brushes with the French people because they were taking the British Red Cross parcels and we were getting the, the rubbish, you know, the French which was not as good as the British ones and they said, well, they were entitled to it because they were working, we weren’t, as NCOs, you didn’t work, only a few volunteered to work, and we didn’t have any problems with other people, the Russians came and helped, they were glad to have a cigarette or a bite of bread or anything that we could give them ‘cause they didn’t get anything, they had to sort out for themselves, and the Germans put the Polish people on guard at the Russian compound and the Russian people on guard at the Polish compound and they weren’t bothered much about the Italians and that, that was alright until we were moved from there and the medical officer, the French medical officer asked me, would I leave my crutches and take a stick, I said, well, I can’t walk, you know, which going back, that had happened in Belgium, in Brussels, the Germans told me to walk, I said, ‘I can’t walk, I’m still in a cage’, so they gave me crutches and said, they took the cage down and said, walk, so I did my best, and the same thing happened in the French camp, they asked me to leave the crutches because they were short and would I walk with the walking stick. Well, being young and stupid I said yes, I managed alright and then we went from there in cattle trucks, yeah, I think was there, yeah, from there in cattle trucks to, no, I’m sorry, we went from Venlo to Dusseldorf in cattle trucks and the cattle truck was divided by a barb wire, sort of fence across the inside of the truck, and the German guards were on one side and eight of us were on the other side, and during the night, there was quite a commotion, one of the German guards had got too close to the fire and his uniform, his overcoat had caught fire, there wasn’t much we could do about it because there was barbed wire between us and his big moan from then on was what is the officer going to say when he arrived in Dusseldorf? Well, we don’t know ‘cause we arrived in Dusseldorf just after a bombing raid. And when we got off the train and on the busses, the people quite rightly were annoyed about the air raid and they tried to attack us but the German guards kept them in their place and we arrived at the interrogation centre where we were put into single rooms and there was no windows in my room, no heater, just a bed with a straw mattress on it and a little signal that if you wanted to go to the toilet, you pushed this signal and a guard would come and take you but we had, they tapped on Morse code between the pipes but I couldn’t read the Morse codes, too quick for me and if your neighbour banged on the wall, that meant that he was going to put his warning down that he wanted to go to the toilet and then you’d put yours down and so you kept the guard running up and down all the time. That was a couple of days there, then we went for interrogation, now we’d been warned back home about the interrogation, what would happen and what wouldn’t happen and so on and the things they told us exactly happened. You got a form [coughs], you got a form to fill in and as I say, what we’ve been told would happen did happen, we were given a form and asked to fill in all the details on the form and you wrote your number, your rank and your name and handed it back [coughs] and they warned you that you hadn’t finished and gave it to you back then and you gave it back to them and this went on a few minutes and then they appeared to get cross, which we’d been warned about really, and a hand went under the table and obviously pressed a button and there was a shot outside and again we’d been warned about that and they said, that’s what happens to the people who don’t cooperate [coughs] and they gave me the form and I gave them back 642170 and he appeared to lose his temper, he didn’t but that was his attitude and he said, ‘As it happens, we know more about your squadron than you do’, and he handed a cap down, he said, the name was inside, Stead, Sergeant Bill Stead and he said, ‘He was on your squadron, wasn’t he?’ Well, I knew damn well he was but I couldn’t say that to him. He said, and the squadron did this and the squadron did that and I just sat there. Eventually he said, ‘You’re a waste of my time, you’re a waste of everybody’s time’ and he called the guard in and I was transferred to another place a few hundred yards away and there we got new uniforms, American uniforms and a case full of good pyjamas, soap, toilet, all the rest, all the things you needed and you had to be careful what you were saying because you didn’t know whether the people in there were planted by the Germans and we’d been there two or three days, we went to our first prison camp, no, not to the first prison camp because we were, those who were injured like me went to a camp near Meiningen in Thuringia and it was an old opera house and there were, I suppose, a hundred or more people in there who’d been injured, different types of injuries and in there was that, Warrant Officer Jackson who got the VC for his efforts, he was in there at the time and you were there until such times as you were transferred to another prison camp and whilst you were there it was quite pleasant because there were concerts and meetings and outside of the camp there was a group of circus performers who practiced every day and that was quite good for us but we didn’t know how they’d evaded being in the army, we never found out and then we were transferred to a camp in Poland and this camp in Poland was fairly new, it hadn’t been open very long and we were given a block number and at the beginning there were six or seven of us in the room but after a few weeks the place had filled up and there were I think twelve in the same room, twelve bunk beds, and I say, we didn’t grumble about, we knew we were there for a while and there was a stove on one wall and in the Red Cross parcels we used to get something called Klim, was a milk spelled backwards and when the tin was empty, we used to put it on the pipe and extend the stove a little bit further and would eventually get it into the middle of the room, so everybody could get warm because of this pipe and then that’s when the Gestapo would come in and smash it all down, start again. And again we had concerts and we had education classes and so on and so on and then Christmas eve ’45, no, ’44, I was shot down ’44, Christmas Eve ’44, we were told to pack our things, we were likely to be moved, and we had a concert that night, there was a Christmas concert, and we had a priest there, we had mass as well, and in the morning, we were told to move, we had to get out, the Russians were advancing and it’s a rule of war that prisoners have got to be moved away from the battle front and so we set off and we walked, the snow was very deep, very deep indeed but we set off for Germany, we were in a place called Kreuzberg, Poland. We set off for Germany and by the time we got to the river which divides Poland and Germany, we picked up children, people had left their children, left them, thinking we’d look after them, but of course we couldn’t but we walked across the river which was frozen to a place called Oppeln and the children were moved away, I don’t know what happened to them, but from then on it was a case of walking, a few nights in a camp, walking, a few nights in a camp until we got to Lamsdorf, which was a, thousands of prisoners in there of all nationalities, thousands and the first room I was put into I wasn’t very happy, they weren’t, they weren’t clean, they weren’t, they weren’t very nice people to be with, let’s put it that way, you didn’t want to live with them after what you’d had in the other prison camps and I asked for a move and I got a move, was to a oh no, I was taken to a camp for interview by the Swedish Red Cross to see whether I was suitable for repatriation but it transpired that I wasn’t bad enough for repatriation so I moved to another camp, which was an army camp, and there were only two or three airmen there, they’d had airmen before but they’d been moved and we were sort of in with the army, we weren’t there very long and then everybody was moved and when the move was mooted, you were told to get yourselves in groups of seven or six, seven or eight, and there was a group of people there who said to me, will you join us? And I said, yes, of course, you know, I’d join anybody, they’d been prisoners since Dunkirk, so they knew the ropes and I said, yes, willingly. They said, well, the thing is, we want somebody to be quartermaster and you are obviously not one who can go and pinch things and take things for your own, so , you’ll be quartermaster and we will keep the things coming in which worked out very well. And we left there, walked down, walked through, I used to walk during the night and sleep in the woods during the day, in case find a source, walk in and think we were German troops, so we walked during the night, slept during the day and ate during the day obviously and then we got a lift on cattle trucks, about forty was in the truck, and we finished up in Prague and when we got off the truck, you were allowed off the truck to use the loo and ladies came like the WVS, German equivalent of the WVS and gave us soup, no, gave us hot water from the engine so that we could make soup and we did that but that wasn’t a good idea because the next day we were all complaining with stomach ache, the water from the engine obviously hadn’t been very clean but we got over it and this was the routine for the next few days on a truck for a while, off a truck walk and we got to Munich and when we got to Munich, there wasn’t room for us at Munich so we stayed the night and set off walking again the next day. And by this time we were in Austria and we were put into a school in Austria but not the original people I was with, about eight of us airmen and a couple of strangers and I think the second night we were there, I went out the morning ‘cause there were no guards, I said, ‘Well, where have the guards gone?’ They weren’t there, young boys actually, they had taken over from the old men, but they’d gone and I saw a lot of people going to church, I asked them, ‘Why are they going to church?’ I said, I was a Catholic and that wasn’t a feast day, as far as I knew. And they said, oh, you don’t know that the war is over. So, I went and told the others, and we walked to a nearby airfield with all the aircraft there was smashed in, they’d been destroyed by the Germans. And the Americans came through and told us to hang on they ‘d be other trucks coming through and they’d bring us food and what have you which they did and then they picked us up and took us to Reims, in France, and there we were grouped and told then aircraft would be flying back in and again with my luck the aircraft that we were going to fly back in, the navigator was missing all the night, and the people I was with, the army people said, well, you’re a navigator aren’t you, I said, ‘Yes, but the pilot might not want me’, anyway they went to the pilot and said, this fellow’s a navigator, and the pilot said, ‘How long was it since you flew?’ I said, ‘Oh, about twelve, thirteen months or so on’, he said, ‘Well, you think you can map read till we get to England?’ I said, ‘Yeah, I’m sure I can’. So, they gave me the map and off we went. And we got to England and when we got to England they were in wireless contact then and we stopped at a place called, an aerodrome called Wing and there we weren’t very happy, we were taken to a tent and fumigated [laughs], we had puffers put up our sleeves and down our necks and what not and a bit humiliating but there, it had to be done and from there we went home on leave. And at the end of leave, we came back to Cosford and we stayed at Cosford to people like me who were wounded, who had recuperation. And the Japanese war ended, and I remember it well, I was in the swimming pool, and when somebody came in and said, the war in Japan is over, I got out the swimming pool got dressed and went, went to what I thought was home. But, oh, I had a pass to go home, but by a direct route, I couldn’t divert southwards, I had to go northwards and on Woolhampton station, train came in for Liverpool and the next thing I knew I was on the train for Liverpool, I thought, what am I doing here? Well, I’d left a girlfriend who lived near Liverpool but actually in my prison time, I never heard a word from anybody, father, mother, family, friends, no one, it was a bit of a joke when the post came there was nothing for me but I’d moved so many times that nobody had an address and when they wrote it was just passed on and it never caught up with me. Anyway, I got to Liverpool and I thought, well, here it goes, and I went over to my girlfriend’s house, knocked on the door, mother opened the door, she said, ‘What do you want?’ And I said, ‘I’m Eddie.’ ‘Eddie who?’ she said, ‘cause I’d lost, well, about three and a half, four stone in weight and my clothes were pretty, new uniform was pretty hopeless, it was hanging on me, and I was nearly black with the sun being out in the weather all the time and she said, ‘You’d better come in then’, ‘cause she didn’t remember who I was. At roundabout half past five the door opened, Nora came in, looked across the room, saw me and went out again and it transpired it, she had a date for that night but she called to her friend’s to cancel the date and from then on we were together and we married in the September of ’45. And, well, we stayed married for seventy years. And then I was discharged from the Air Force because I wanted to fly and they had so many fliers they didn’t want people who’d been injured, so, they had enough fliers. So I took discharge and went to a special unit where you worked out what you’re going to do afterwards and I made the suggestion that I’d like to be in education but again it came up the question you haven’t got university qualifications and you haven’t been to a training college and so on and so on, however I got over all that, and the education officer said, ‘Why don’t you go a step higher and try for teaching?’ I said, well, you know, as has happened in the past, ‘I might qualify for teaching’, he said, ‘If you’re qualified as a navigator, you’re qualified for teaching’. So, I had a test and passed the test, and I went to a teacher training college, they wanted me to go to, the one year, but I wanted to do a two year and I, I became a teacher. And eventually I spent a couple of terms in the Wirral, near Liverpool and then I came to Worksop taught fifteen year old, fourteen, fifteen, it was the first year I had children had to stay until they were fifteen and I had the first class in this particular school, fourteen, fifteens, they’d all, they weren’t, I’m not being unkind, the majority of them weren’t clever, they hadn’t passed the eleven plus, they hadn’t passed the thirteen plus, but some of them were quite bright, anyway that’s beside the point, and I stayed there for ten years. And then we talked it over and Nora had a good job, we talked it over and it was become quite obvious that I was going to get any further in a secondary school, I was in an all age school, so I decided to transfer to primary school, and we moved to Bishops Stortford in Hertfordshire and I was deputy head there for, I think 1967, ten years, and then I got a headship in Derbyshire, [unclear], and I was head there until 1984, then I retired. Came here. And that’s the story so far. Well, I eventually got in touch with what’s the squadron association and began going to the reunions and I had the wife of the commanding officer wanted to start a museum and she asked all of us who were there and at that time there’d be about eighty, ninety ex-squadron members there, if they had anything that would start the museum and I asked, I said, ‘I haven’t got anything really but I’ve got my prisoner of war identity card, would that be of any use?’ ‘Oh yes’, she said, ‘Let me have it. So, I did. And I suppose a couple of years afterwards, I got a phone call, ‘Please don’t put the phone down, I’m not a double glazing salesman, my name is Clive, you might remember my uncle, Clive Hill.’ I said, ‘I remember him very well, he was my engineer.’ ‘Oh’, he said, ‘Well, can we start from there? My mother has been ill and they have told her that her illness was due to worry about not doing anything about finding what happened to her brother.’ Rightly or wrongly, that’s what they’d said, and he said, ‘I’ve taken over and the Ministry of Defence wouldn’t give me any information about anybody but my uncle, they wouldn’t let me have your information. But I’ve talked to the secretary of the association, squadron association and he has given me your address and phone number, can I talk to you?’ And I said, ‘Yes, of course.’ And she’d gone down to Waterbeach to the museum, to try and find out something about his uncle and he’d given up and as he walked through the door, coming out, he saw this card on the wall and eleventh of April ’44 and he said, that was the night my uncle was shot down. And there was only one aircraft shot down. So, you must be the survivor, he said, I had an inkling there was a survivor, because there’s only six people buried. And, well, from then on, we kept in contact and the then secretary of the association was ill and he wanted to give up and Clive took over and all the information was dumped on his doorstep and he’s been the secretary ever since and he does a fantastic job and of course we’ve kept in touch as families, we’ve been away together, we went to Belgium together, to put the monument up, he went to Belgium to find the spot and as he was looking round, the farmer came up and said, you know, are you from the police, are you looking for somebody? He told him why he was there and of course things blossomed and they gave us the plot to put the memorial on. And we were entertained for the weekend by the local council.
SP: Did you ever meet anyone from the farm after the war?
EH: Oh yes
SP: Who had taken you in?
EH: Yes, the wife of the farmer came to the last reunion and was delighted and so were we. And I met the sister of the family that took me in, but she died. We stayed with her overnight at the time we were putting the monument together, but her brother had died and her parents had died, she was the sole survivor. And we’re still in touch, Clive he, if he can’t arrange a pickup for me on squadron association reunions, then he comes himself, comes from Castle Bromwich, picks me up and takes me and then brings me back again, which is a long journey. So, we are looking forward to next year, which would be the seventy-fifth anniversary of the squadron forming, so hopefully we get there. I think that’s about everything.
SP: Okay, Eddie, well.
EH: I can remember as I’ve been helpful or not.
SP: That’s been very detailed, so thank you very much for your time on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. It’s been an
EH: Oh, thank you for putting up with it
SP: Excellent story, lots of details. Thank you very much for that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Eddie Humes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHumesEL170826, PHumesEL1701
Format
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00:54:55 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Cambridgeshire
Belgium
Belgium--Brussels
Germany
Germany--Düsseldorf
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Thuringia
Poland
Poland--Łambinowice
Description
An account of the resource
Eddie Humes flew as a navigator on Lancasters with 514 Squadron during the war. He chose to join the RAF in May 1939 instead of going to work in the mines. He was initially expected to be posted as a rigger on aircraft but was then sent to a balloon training centre, which didn’t please him very much. After finishing training, he applied for transfer to aircrew, but was posted to a balloon drifter on the Thames and from there, to the East End in London. Then his posting to aircrew came through and so he transferred to St John’s Wood for aircrew training and then to St Andrews and to Manchester, where he trained to be a navigator. Was then posted to RAF Chipping Warden on Wellingtons, RAF Little Snoring and to RAF Waterbeach on 514 Squadron. Remembers his first operation to Biarritz. Gives a vivid and detailed account of when they were shot down in 1944 over Belgium, on the way back home from Aachen, when the port wing was hit. Six members of the crew died in the crash, leaving him the sole survivor, breaking his leg in the landing. He was taken by a Belgian family but, because of his severe injuries, he was handed over to the Germans, who brought him to hospital, where he underwent surgery and spent a long period of convalescence. He then spent the rest of the war being moved from camp to camp, in Belgium, Germany and Poland and was then forced to march hundreds of miles from Poland to Austria, from where he was sent to France and repatriated. After the war, he went into teaching and ended up as a deputy head, until his retirement. He joined the squadron association and together with the association’s secretary, his engineer’s nephew, he went to Belgium to build a memorial to his lost crew.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1944
1945
514 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
Gee
Lancaster
Lancaster Mk 2
navigator
prisoner of war
RAF Dumfries
RAF Little Snoring
RAF Waterbeach
Red Cross
shot down
Stalag 8B
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/888/11127/AHughesWH151021.1.mp3
33613f53da69484a983e122f2ed1e463
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hughes, Harry
William Henry Hughes
W H Hughes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM (- 2023, 159079 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 102 Squadron and then with a Mosquito Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hughes, WH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
HH: It’s all in the book, I think, mainly, isn’t it?
AS: Most of it is, but we need to get it on tape. I think. This is an interview with Harry Hughes, flight lieutenant Harry Hughes DFC DFM, a navigator in wartime Bomber Command on 102 Squadron and then later on Mosquitos. My name is Adam Sutch and the interview is being conducted at Harry’s home in St Ives. Harry, thank you ever so much for agreeing to this interview. Perhaps we can start by going over a little your early days. I believe, you were born in Dorset.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. Did you have brothers and sisters?
HH: A sister, yeah. But I went to school in Sherborne, the Grammar School in Sherborne not the big school, not the public school. And, it was a good school but there we are, I think it was a good school anyway but they’ve, in their wisdom they’ve closed it down now and they amalgamated with the Lord Digby school, ‘cause the Lord Digby school is gonna cost too much to repair or something and I think some builder wanted to get hold of their building anyway and make flats out of it. You know, usual thing.
AS: Yeah. How did you get on at school? What were your subjects? What did you do well at in school?
HH: Mainly in maths. I got a distinction in Maths and a distinction in Physics and Chemistry. Otherwise I got all passes except English language in which I got, I didn’t fail, I got a pass, just got a pass so I didn’t get my ‘tric. Did so⸻
AS: Sorry.
HH: Anyway that’s beside the point. Anyway I left there in 1940 and my very first job was a night watchman for some lady at Lewisham Manor near Sherborne, who lost all her staff and she wanted somebody to be in the house at night and to patrol the grounds. While I went round the grounds once, no, never again, it was too bloody scary [laughs].
AS: Things that go bump in the night.
HH: Yeah, there was hooting and things [laughs]. Anyway that’s beside the point.
AS: But this was 1940. Was this, was the Battle of Britain going on over your head or had that finished?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: What, was that what pushed you towards the air force or?
HH: No. Well, I think. Well, what pushed me towards the air force was the fact that I went, my father wanted me to join the navy and I, I went down to Portsmouth to sit an exam to be a writer or a supply probationer [unclear] his own clerk, and I didn’t fancy that, but anyway they gave you twelve blocks of pounds, shillings and pence to add up that way and then you had to add up that way and then you had to add them all up across and then the figure you got down here and the figure you got down here should have been the same. Mine was nowhere near. Anyway.
AS: But your maths were good so, you threw it really, didn’t you?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Did you deliberately mess up, because your maths were good.
HH: Yeah. Yes, I know, but not the accountancy type [laughs]. Anyway, we then, coming back on the train, I was pretty certain I’d failed, so, coming back on the train, I had to change at Salisbury and I had about an hour to waste, wait at Salisbury so I went in the town and I saw an RAF recruiting office. So I went in there and saw a sergeant there and I signed on for aircrew.
AS: Just like that?
HH: Yeah. And they took me on as a pilot or navigator and then I had to go to Oxford for attestation and I went there and with all the gunners from South Wales and what have you became gunners rather, from the mines, you know, and so that’s how I came to be in the air force.
AS: Okay. Did you go through the aircrew recruiting centres in London at Lord’s and?
HH: Yes, I was the first one there.
AS: Really?
HH: Very first one to go there, I think. In July ‘41, I suppose, yeah.
AS: That’s pretty early. What, what happened then? They’ve taken you into the air force at that stage, I suppose, you didn’t know what you were going to do.
HH: Well, we went to ITW and⸻
AS: Where was that?
HH: Down Torquay, which is very nice and, I’ve got my bloody reading glasses on, no wonder I can’t see, and then I was sent down to America to train.
AS: Okay.
HH: In the United States Air Force.
AS: Straight from Initial Training Wing.
HH: Yes. Straight from ITW. We didn’t get a chance. Later on they used to, they did a little course on Tiger Moths up on somewhere in the world, somewhere up that way.
AS: So, you hadn’t actually flown in an aircraft when you went to.
HH: No.
AS: How did you, obviously they wouldn’t fly you over, but how did you get across the Atlantic, in a convoy or?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. What was that called?
HH: I went out on a ship called the Highland Princess, which I ended up selling. I sold the Highland Princess, the Highland Brigade and the Highland Monarch.
AS: Presumably not during the war when you got there.
HH: No. Four of them, I sold them in about ’51, or ’52, something like that
AS: Okay. So, you’re going across the Atlantic in convoy. Was the ship crowded? What was the conditions like?
HH: Well, we were in hammocks, you know, on meat hooks in the, you hung your hammock on meat hooks in the lower hold, you know?
AS: Gosh.
HH: And we are right up on the stern of the ship because every time the, I think she was twin screwer if I remember rightly, because every time the ship rolled the prop shoot [mimics a sound] [laughs].
AS: Is that the prop coming out of the water?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Gosh! Gosh, and so, there must have been hundreds of men on the ship with you.
HH: Yeah.
AS: All [unclear]
HH: The one thing you found out, you had to hang on to your four and a half hat because one went missing, what did he do? Go and pinch another one. So, it went all round the ship [laughs]. [unclear]
AS: Like measles, isn’t it? Yes, yeah, absolutely.
HH: Yeah, I remember that so, I hid mine, anyway.
AS: So, you went across in uniform with
HH: Yeah.
AS: Hundreds of other people.
HH: No, when we got to, we were being issued with, at Wilmslow I think it was in Cheshire, we’d been issued with a grey flannel suit to wear in America, ‘cause we all had to go down grey worsted suits, you know.
AS: Ah, ‘cause America wasn’t in the war then.
HH: ‘Cause they weren’t in the war then, yeah.
AS: Right.
HH: So, and so we went down to Maxwell Field in Alabama first of all for acclimatization.
AS: Wait, where did the ship come in?
HH: Halifax.
AS: Oh, so you landed in Canada.
HH: Went to Canada first, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: And then, I think, yes I think we were there, we were trained down to Toronto, I think, and then we went from Toronto down to Alabama, to Maxwell Field, to Montgomery, Alabama.
AS: Okay. Was the whole journey really well organised⸻
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: Or was is the usual service mess up?
HH: No.
AS: No. It was good?
HH: It was good, yeah, everything seemed to go to plan I think, pretty well.
AS: How were you received at Montgomery, at Maxwell Air Force base?
HH: Oh, pretty well. In fact, the very first Sunday we were there, first weekend we were there, the American officer came round and, when we were having lunch, and he said, there’s a fair in town at the moment and they’ve heard that you boys are here, so we’d like you, they’d like you to come along and be their guest. So we thought we were going there but no, it was a scam, we were all scammed out of our money. Yeah, so we woke up in the morning, everybody had lost all their money, it was a real American type scam you know and I saw a coach loading up with American service people all in uniform. So I said, ‘Where is this coach going?’ ‘Oh’, he said, one of them said, ‘We are going to a little village called Prattville just outside of Montgomery and we’re going to church and if we’re lucky we will get invited out for lunch afterwards.’ So, I said, ‘Can we come along?’ Then the three of us got on board anyway. And we went in and sang all the hymns [laughs] and, real gospel stuff too it was, yeah.
AS: Deep South, isn’t it?
HH: You know, happy happy-clappy type of fellows, kind of stuff, you know, and anyway afterwards all the American were all invited out to lunch and we were there, standing there, wondering what the hell to do, because it was a long walk back to Maxwell from Prattville ‘bout twelve miles I should think and then suddenly this lovely blonde comes up, she says, ‘You all from Maxwell?’ I said, ‘Yeah, as a matter of fact, we are.’ ‘Oh’, she says, ‘Matter of fact what sort of language is that?’ she says. ‘Well’, I says, ‘Well, you probably wouldn’t understand but we are English’ [laughs]. ‘Oh’, she says, ‘English, you are English?’ And she rushed around and she got all the Americans to cancel so that we were all invited to and she was a daughter of a, she collared me anyway and the other two were taken off somewhere else, I don’t know where. And then, we had lunch and her father was the local judge and he said afterwards, after we had lunch, he said, ‘I guess you would like to take my daughter out for a drive, would you? We gotta a nice Buick in the back. Buick with a steering column for your change’ and I didn’t even have a licence [unclear] never mind [laughs]. Never mind, and I got in anyway and I drove her out, bit of snogging and came back. And that was that and I never saw her again, she, I heard later she married an American navy pilot, who got killed in the Pacific. Yeah. So I could have followed it up if I wanted to but I didn’t but by that time I was back in Canada anyway.
AS: So when did the serious business of learning to fly start and how did that go?
HH: Pardon?
AS: When did the serious business of learning to fly start and how did that go?
HH: Well, when I go to, we went down to, we were posted from Maxwell Field down to Albany in Georgia to an aerodrome called Darr Aero Tech, that was the owner of the aerodrome, I think, Darr Aero Tech. And it’s still there, I was there not long ago. And so, I suddenly had to do a flight commander’s check and he decided, he decided to wash me out so I went back up to Canada and trained as a navigator.
AS: On the flying piece, how much flying did you do? Do you think it was fair that you got washed out?
HH: No.
AS: How did that come about?
HH: Well, they wanted, they, the Air Ministry wanted as many people washed out as possible who could train as navigators, bomb aimers and gunners and what have you. They weren’t too short of gunners but they.
AS: I believe you had an instructor with a German sounding name.
HH: Oh yeah. Schmidt.
AS: Schmidt.
HH: Yeah, that was a joke really. That was in the book, wasn’t it? Yeah.
AS: So maybe he sabotaged your flying career, your piloting career. So, I presume that a lot of people were washed out at this stage.
HH: They were, but [unclear] was never washed out.
AS: Wow.
HH: Over eighty percent. I know it was a whole lot of us came back. And on Pearl Harbour, the day of Pearl Harbour we were giving an exhibition rugby match in the town. And suddenly over the tannoy came an announcement that Pearl Harbour had been attacked by the Japanese and so everybody went home, they all packed up and went home. So we went home as well. And that night, I had a place I used to get under the wire and go into town at night, you know [laughs] and when I came back to get under the wire there was a man there with a gun [laughs]. And he was trying to shoot me because he thought I was a Japanese. He said, look mate, I don’t like your look, you look like a bloody Japanese [laughs].
AS: Did you go out of through the gate after that?
HH: No. Well, I didn’t bother after that.
AS: So.
HH: I went back, well, the following day we were on the train to go back up to Canada.
AS: Is that quick?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Flight commander’s test and then pack your kit and off you go.
HH: About for, about a week later I suppose I was back, I was on the train going back up to Canada. And it’s quite an experience travelling by train out in America, isn’t it? In those days with the dining cars and everything, and the bars and but we had to change, we were on what was called the Chattanooga Choo Choo, but going the wrong way [laughs]. We were going there, were going north but the Chattanooga Choo Choo goes, comes south, doesn’t it? But we were on that line anyway. And I remember we stopped off in Boston and we had a bit of a wait there so we decided to go into town, we never did see Boston because we got on the way into town, we got attacked by these Irish Americans.
AS: For being British?
HH: We had taken them into the war.
AS: Okay.
HH: It’s our fault but [laughs]. And they were at war now. And they’d be getting called up and be killed. And then anyway we got away with that alright.
AS: You were physically attacked?
HH: Yeah, yeah. They had knives and God knows what. They weren’t very nice people. Anyway, I say Irish American but I imagine they were Irish Americans, being in Boston, wouldn’t you?
AS: Big population there, isn’t it?
HH: So, then I went to Trenton where I was interviewed by a group captain and he was Raymond Mass‘s brother.
AS: God lord, Raymond Mass of the Agfa?
HH: Yeah. It was his brother. He looked just like him too. Yeah. And.
AS: Was that a sympathetic interview?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: You wanted to be a pilot and then suddenly that stopped. Was the system generally sympathetic to you?
HH: Oh yes. So they were quite keen to take me on as a navigator. And so then I went from there to Quebec City, L’Ancienne-Lorette. And from there up to Rivers in Manitoba. Which was a dry town, that was, Prohibition there.
AS: Oh dear. Good lord.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Were you in uniform by this time? RAF uniform?
HH: Yeah. Wearing a Canadian uniform in fact [laughs]. They issued us with a Canadian uniform, which were quite smart actually. And they were very similar to ours but the cloth is a little kinder, shall we say?
AS: So, you’re in Prohibition and you went out, presumably looking for a drink, do you?
HH: Well, we knew that Mont-Joli was dry but there was a little, there was a port just down the river called Rimouski, which was a timber port mainly. I remember when I took my Institute of Chartered Shipbrokers exams, one of the questions was, could you explain what were the, how many and what sort of cargo was exported from Rimouski, well everybody else thought it was in Russia, didn’t’ they? [laughs]
AS: But you had a clear mental picture.
HH: Yeah, I’ve seen it. Anyway, we were trying to, we were drinking some, we went to a bar and we were drinking this clear liquid, we had asked for whiskey but they served us up with this clear whiskey, clear liquid and when we were coming back in a taxi we were, we’d had about two each of these, we were all very sick we had to stop the taxi we were really sick and we saw afterwards that [unclear] don’t drink anything that is given to you because there is a stuff called alcool which is made from wood alcohol and it’s can make you blind.
AS: It’s like drinking anti-freeze, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Gosh, lucky escape!
HH: And so that was that. So then from Mont-Joli we went to the staff end course at Rivers in Manitoba which was astronavigation, advanced navigations course it was.
AS: What was the basic navigation course? What was your basic navigation training like? Was it mostly classroom or?
HH: A lot of in the air.
AS: What were you flying in?
HH: Ansons. Yeah. Mark 1 Ansons you had to wind up the undercarriage, you remember?
AS: Yeah. Did you take to it easily, to the navigation, because of your maths proficiency or?
HH: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: And you found it easy to be an accurate navigator?
HH: Yes, I mean, you’re training all the time of course and right the way through when I came home from Rivers, came home over on the Union-Castle ship, called the Cape Town Castle, which I didn’t sell. And, what’s the time?
AS: Now.
HH: [alarm clock rings] The taxi, yeah.
AS: Okay. We’ll pause at there, shall we? [recording paused]
HH: Yeah. Astronavigation course A and it was mainly a flying by using star shots yeah. But when I got on the squadron, I mean you had to carry about three sets of books, you know, and a naval almanac as well. Had to work out your star shots. But when I got to the squadron they had a marvellous bit of equipment, a little projector over the navigator’s tail [unclear], which about that high off the table and you had to measure it up with a special stick to make certain it was in focus and on this astrograph there was three stars you could use and, two stars rather, two stars plus Polaris you use to get a three star fix, and you worked out a datum point for the time before you, before you got airborne and drew it on your chart and then you lay your chart down on the table and lined it up with the astrograph and then this projected the position lines of these stars onto your chart. So all, so, the bomb aimer, all the bomb aimer had to do was to take the star charts, he was, my bomb aimer was a trained navigator anyway and I think he’s still alive, I’m not sure, and.
AS: So it was very much team work.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Between you and the bomb aimer but actually on astros. So, you, we jumped straight on to being on the squadron. Did you know, as soon as you started navigator training, that you would be going to Bomber Command?
HH: Well, it’s pretty obvious I would be. Yeah.
AS; Okay. And, so, you finished your training in Canada, came back to the UK by ship, and what happened next before you got on to the squadron?
HH: I went to [unclear], is it Cumberland?
AS: I think Scotland.
HH: Up near Carlisle, north of Carlisle then, between Carlisle and Keswick I suppose. And a little aerodrome there and we learned to fly in wartime conditions, you know, where the balloon barrages were et cetera. Where to avoid them.
AS: And is this when you stepped up from Ansons to bombers?
HH: No, no, this is still on Ansons. And then from there we went down to Hampstead Norris still on Ansons and then we went to Harwell, Hampstead Norris was a satellite of Harwell at the time and then we crewed up with our pilot and wireless operator, I think we already had a wireless operator and we crewed up with bomb aimer and engineer, no, no, we didn’t have an engineer at that time, this is on Wellingtons and.
AS: What were they like the training Wellingtons, were they in good nick, were they ropey old kites or?
HH: No, no, pretty ropey, they were draughty as hell, oh God they were draughty. The wind used to whistle through that fabric, you know. [unclear] construction, wasn’t it?
AS: What was, was there a step up in gear going on to heavier airplanes and operational tactics?
HH: Oh yeah, yeah.
AS: You are moving much more quickly in your calculations and navigation than perhaps when you were training?
HH: We did quite a lot of cross countries and Bullseyes we did in OTU.
AS: What’s Bullseye?
HH: Bullseyes we did down, we’d go down to, say the Channel Islands and experience a little bit of flak there and then we’d come back up again and fly across to Portsmouth or somewhere and fly across the coast there or else we’d fly, out to the North Sea towards Denmark and come back into Hull.
AS: So this was almost a simulated bombing mission, was that?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Training, for training. Okay.
HH: They were called Bullseyes anyway in cooperation with the army, I suppose, with the the ack-ack.
AS: So, when you’re at OTU, you’re on Wellingtons.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Then we went up to a place called Riccall in Yorkshire, near Selby, and we had to, we trained, we converted onto Halifaxes.
AS: What, can you remember what year, what month this would be when you?
HH: Well, that would be about Christmas of, just around Christmas in ’42, I suppose.
AS: Wow, so what type of Halifax would this be? The Merlin one or the?
HH: The Merlin one, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Yes, so the Hali, Hali 1, what’s his name? Not Gibson, what the hell was his name?
AS: Cheshire?
HH: No. Gus Walker.
AS: Gus, oh yeah, yeah.
HH: He was a lovely man, Gus was, and he’d taken out, all the mid upper turret and the front nose cone as well, there is a very big heavy turret in the front nose and like the Lanc was, you know. And then, it’s pretty useless that front turret was but anyway. Then, eventually we got the Hali II.1 A which had a four gun [unclear] turret on the top, yes, same as on the Hali 3.
AS: So your mid upper then got his job back.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, Gus Walker he took these turrets out to save weight, to carry more bombs?
HH: To save weight, yeah. Just to save weight, to make it improve performance a bit. And get a better height. I better ring up my taxi.
AS: So, by taking the turrets off, Gus Water was giving his aircrews more of a chance really, wasn’t he?
HH: Yeah, but then later on they improved the, we still had the Merlin 22s, same as the Lanc had, you know. Merlin 22s, but the Mark II.1 A was a much better aircraft, you could get up to, you know, eighteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two thousand.
AS: Loaded?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Which is, you were at the same height as the Lancs. And the Lancs had the habit of dropping their bombs on you. Which happened on our very first trip. We went to, we were waiting to have a nice easy trip but no, we got Essen. And then, when we were over the, when we were over the target on our bombing run but a whole lot of bombs dropped on us, a whole lot of incendiaries dropped on us and the engineer and myself had to go back and kick them out the door [laughs] and which is good practice actually, because it happened to us again over Wuppertal.
AS: Really?
HH: But that time there was a, I think it was a two thousand pounder or a thousand pounder, I don’t know, and it came and took our port rudder right off, and the port tail and the port tail blade yeah.
AS: And what sort of problems did that give the pilot?
HH: Mh?
AS: What sort of problems did that give the pilot?
HH: Well, we found, she was, it was still flying alright but I found that we were crabbing a bit. And I remember seeing a light below and I said, take a drift on that, would you? And anyway we found that we were crabbing quite about ten degrees to port, I think, yeah.
AS: So you do all your sums again and take that out by adjusting the.
HH: No, I just took ten degrees off every course [laughs]. Yeah.
AS: That must have been quite a hairy landing I would think.
HH: No, [unclear], yeah. I can’t remember it being anything but normal.
AS: Wow.
HH: And when we got back, the little corporal in charge of our ground crew, he came out, what the bloody hell have you done to my aircraft! [laughs] as if it was our fault, you know.
AS: Did you fly your own regular aircraft that you got attached to?
HH: Yes, yeah. D, we always flew in D, until one time we let, we were on leave and I think it was an Australian pilot took it and he was very conscious of saving fuel. So he throttled right back coming back and the result was that the, when we went to run the engine up the following day, the engine started to shake, port engine started to shake and suddenly the prop came off and went right through where I’d be normally sitting and sliced my table in half, but I was in the rest position now for take-off you know.
AS: Wow. So that was one of your nine lives gone?
HH: Yeah. I tell that story I say, as you can see I’m still here [laughs]. I wasn’t sitting there at the time.
AS: So, did they repair the aeroplane or was that the demise of D-Dog?
HH: But that was it finished, D-Dog was finished then and we got the Mark 2.1 A then.
AS: Still as D-Dog or was there a superstition about that?
HH: No. We were still with D, yeah. But, Jackie Miles, he was our mid upper gunner, he was really pleased to get that. We got four guns, he was really happy [laughs]. But it was much safer to have somebody in a blister looking down underneath.
AS: Is that what he used to do before he got the target?
HH: Yeah. Yes, and he used to put it in his log book, duty, rear gunner’s me [laughs].
AS: Yeah. On, when you were on ops, had the idea of the bomber stream come in by then?
HH: Oh yes. Yes, we were on the very first time they dropped, the Pathfinders used Oboe on the Essen raids. I think it was first used on the 5th of March, wasn’t it?
AS: I don’t know, 1943. This was.
HH: Yeah, ’43, ’43 by this time, yeah.
AS: So, it was quite early on in the idea of the Pathfinders.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, you went on ops just as the stream and the concentration were starting to take place. I know you were deep in the bowels of the aeroplane at your navigation table. Did you, did the crew see other aircraft around them, feel the other aircraft around them?
HH: No, you are in the slipstream the whole time. Especially when you got near the target, when you’re on your final run, you sort of you feel the slipstream and you have got to remember that five percent of our losses were due to collisions, it has been estimated.
AS: That’s a high percentage.
HH: I think we were told that at the time to be extra vigiliant, you know.
AS: Against the dangers of collision. What about enemy aircraft on your first tour? Did you have any encounters with the German night fighters?
HH: Oh yeah. [unclear], he shot down two, he shot down a Ju 88 and an Me 110 I think it was, yeah.
AS: And this, this was your rear gunner.
HH: And he had a problem as well. A lot of Battle of Britain pilots would have given their eye tooth for a score like that. Probably would have gotten a DSO and a DFC.
AS: [laughs] there are a lot of unsung deeds in Bomber Command.
HH: Anyway then we finished up in October ’43 and I got sent up to 6 Group, it was a Canadian crew.
AS: With the Canadians. How did you?
HH: And they wanted everybody to be Canadians, you know. They didn’t want an English instructor so I got, I quickly got posted down to 3 Group. And
AS: Somewhere along the way you, you picked up the DFM. Was that during your first tour?
HH: Yes, was the first tour.
AS: And what was the story behind your DFM?
HH: I don’t know really. It’s not in the book even, not even in the, my citation is not there, there’s a book of DFMs in the RAF, book of DFCs and DFMs. And I think there was an Australian, called Cameron, he found this book of DFMs but I don’t know, I think Gus Walker probably. You see, I’d broken my left foot, I’d broken a bone in my left foot and what with having leave, we were due for leave I went on leave on with my foot in plaster, came back and had the plaster taken off and then I fell off my bicycle [laughs]. Didn’t help. So, the doc said, ‘Right, I’m going to keep you in hospital until your foot’s cured. I don’t want any arguments.’ And the following day Sam came in, he said, we are on tonight, [unclear] and they want me to take a spare navigator and I said, ‘No way, Sam, let’s go and see the doc.’ The doc was in a good mood ‘cause he was going on leave. So, have you read all this before?
AS: No.
HH: So, [pause] he said, ‘Alright you, you can go this time, but’, he says, ‘Provided you come back into hospital as soon as you get back. If you get back’, he said, ‘If you get back.’ So, he then went on leave. Anyway, I duly arrived at main briefing, done my navigation briefing, I think we came at main briefing and Gus Walker was on the door. And Gus said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘I’m on crutches you see. I’m going on ops.’ And he said, ‘Why?’ ‘I don’t where my crew is going, I don’t want them to go without me.’ ‘Well, oh alright then.’ So I went in and we went to Berlin that night. And when I got back, Gus was still on the station. ‘Cause he was in charge of three squadrons, wasn’t he? Up there. And he said, ‘Right, young Hughes,’ he says, ‘I’ve been hearing all about you, he says, ‘It’s alright, I’ll take you back to the hospital myself.’ And then I got in his car and he tore me off a bit of a mild strip for being irresponsible and some of that and then as I got out, he said, ‘Bloody good show anyway, Hughes.’ And I think it was he who recommended me for a DFM, I don’t know, probably.
AS: Excellent. It’s a wonderful, wonderful story. What happened, you said, you tried the book in the RAF club to find your citation. Have you explored anywhere else, to try and find the DFM citation?
HH: I did write to some time ago, I don’t know, I think they did, you get from RAF records I think.
AS: Okay.
HH: Because I wrote to them the other day and asked them if, ‘cause I had a letter from them to say that I could retain the rank, substantive rank of flight lieutenant when I finished in the reserve and use the courtesy rank of squadron leader. But I’ve never used it. So I thought it would be a nice thing to have on my tombstone, so I wrote and asked them if that still pertained, shall we say.
AS: And you are still waiting for a reply.
HH: Well, they wrote back to me and said that I’d have to give them some more proof of who I was, you know, passports, et cetera so I sent them up a copy of my, one of my utility bills and my council tax demand.
AS: Well, hopefully that’s good enough.
HH: It only went off last week, so we will have to wait and see.
AS: You mentioned briefings. I know the targets were different and the weather was different, but could you give me some idea of an average preparation for a mission from waking up in the morning to taking off. Is that possible, that sort of things that?
HH: Yeah, because you went down to the, you went down to the flights and you stood in the apron outside the squadron offices and at ten to ten on the dot, if you were on that night, the phone would ring. You knew you were on that night then and then, but if you waited and waited until ten past ten the phone would ring again to say the squadron’s stood down by which time we had all disappeared ‘cause we’d all. Didn’t want to go to on a bloody route march or something [unclear].
AS: So it was all incredibly secret but the routine gave it away.
HH: Yeah [laughs].
AS: So if the phone call came at ten to ten, you knew you were on ops that night, what would happen then?
HH: Well I did, we’d go down to our aircraft and check all the equipment in it and then if necessary you take it up on an air test and then you were back on the ground again by, about eleven, eleven thirty, and then you’d either come back and go to lunch and or else you’d and then after you’d had lunch you’d go on for navigation briefing at about two o’clock.
AS: So the navigator was the first person in the crew to know where you were going, what timing was.
HH: Yes, we knew where we were going, yeah.
AS: Was that a very full briefing, with weather? Is this when you drew up your courses, you got your turning points and what not?
HH: Sorry?
AS: Was this a very full briefing?
HH: Oh yeah, well, the navigation briefing, yes, you got your various tracks you had to go on to and hopefully they’re taking you around the defended areas you know.
AS: The flak and the searchlights, yeah. Was there a lot of work involved for you to prepare your charts?
HH: Yes, it took quite a time. You were mainly with your bomb aimer to help you, you know. Harry Hoover, my bomb aimer was a trained navigator, he trained in South Africa I think.
AS: So, you two were the only ones that knew at the navigation briefing the target. Was it difficult to keep it secret from your skipper and your crew?
HH: Oh no, you didn’t have to keep it secret but you just told the rest of the crew where we’re going so all this business about being a gasp when they, when the curtains were pulled across from the map.
AS: Probably you already knew.
HH: We all knew where we were going by that time, at least my crew did.
AS: So, you’ve done your navigation briefing and what happened then? Just sit around waiting for the main crew briefing or did you have duties to do?
HH: No, we just, by the time you finished doing the nav, it’s about time for the main briefing and then having done the main briefing you then went for an ops breakfast. The ops breakfast, which was bacon and eggs, baked beans, all the things you shouldn’t eat.
AS: Baked beans?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And you’re flying at twenty thousand feet.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Oh, that could have been interesting. What was the atmosphere like? Was there a lot of tension? Was there a lot of horseplay? Was there a lot of fear? What was the atmosphere like?
HH: I don’t know, I can’t remember now, there was a feeling of are we gonna make it or not, you know.
AS: Was that a personal thing or something that you talked about with the crew?
HH: I would never, never, never, never, my mid upper gunner, he, one day, we were in our room, I shared a room with him and he packed up all his biscuits on his bed and folded up all the blankets and sheets. What are you doing that for? And he said, ‘I don’t think we are gonna come back. So I’m putting the things in order now.’ And he got all his paperwork out and everything, letters and everything to his wife and things.
AS: What did that do to your morale?
HH: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t very happy about it but it was a scrub that night anyway. Then he said, afterwards he said, ‘God, good job we didn’t go to [unclear] because we weren’t going to come back.’ He knew.
AS: But after that on future trips he was fine.
HH: Well, I said, ‘Don’t you ever do that again, Jackie, I said, ‘You never do a thing like that again.’
AS: Tempting fate. What about off duty, what sort of things did you, you guys get up to that you can talk about?
HH: Sorry?
AS: Off duty, did you get much time off to yourself? Or to yourselves as a crew?
HH: Yeah. We, I used to go out with, mainly with another crew ‘cause all our crew, our skipper was commissioned, so we were all and the rest of them, Jackie Miles he lived in Leeds so when he had an evening off, he went back to Leeds and the rear gunner was the same, he was somewhere just outside Leeds. Sam was from Leeds as well, the pilot, so it was only the engineer and myself.
AS: So you latched onto another crew for the,
HH: Yeah.
AS: The social element.
HH: Yes, [unclear] crew, yeah. I was pretty friendly with his navigator but he got killed.
AS: And did the rest of the crew come back?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And brought him back?
HH: They brought him back, yeah.
AS: Your, we were talking about your navigation training and astro, during your time, your first tour on ops, did you start to get Gee in the aeroplane or any other navigational aids that you used?
HH: We had Gee.
AS: You had Gee.
HH: Right from the start, yeah. We had the Mark 1 Gee which was, used to have to tune it, the narrow knobs on the side and you had to tune it to get a signal and it’s like tuning one of those. Televisions, you know.
AS: Keep wandering off. Did you, was it as a big revolution in navigation as people say?
HH: The Gee was, yeah.
AS: The Gee was, it really did make a difference.
HH: Yeah, well, it did make a difference because, but you didn’t get it beyond the Dutch coast, it wouldn’t work beyond the Dutch coast but you had we, well, you had LORAN later, in Mosquitos we had Gee and LORAN. In fact, it really annoys me now to hear the met men talking about the jet stream because we found the very first jet stream. I found a wind of a hundred and ninety five knots at thirty thousand feet.
AS: Tailwind.
HH: Hundred and ninety five knots and when we got back, I told the met man, I said, ‘I got a wind of a hundred and ninety five knots and you were forecasting forty five to fifty knots.’ He said, ‘I don’t believe it, I don’t believe it!’ So he went to Group headquarters and the Group headquarters said we don’t believe it. They went to Command headquarters and the met people up there said they didn’t believe it either. But then everybody else came back with these winds and they suddenly realised what was called jet streams but now they talk about jet streams all the time. And what they mean is where the warm front, the warm tropical front meets the polar maritime front and all the way along that you get depressions form and then, and with it you get this so-called jet stream would form as well. Ah, so which comes first? The frontal systems or the jet stream?
AS: Must be the fronts, must be the fronts. So, when you are doing your tour, you’d had the nasty experience of being bombed twice by your own people, probably 5 Group above you.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Was that the limit of the difficulties you had? Was the aeroplane mechanically reliable or did you suffer?
HH: Oh, we, came back on three engines more times than we came back on four.
AS: Really?
HH: Yeah. I think we came back on three engines eleven times out of our tour.
AS: And what did your ground crew chief say to that?
HH: Well, it wasn’t their fault, necessarily, well, he didn’t think it was anyway.
AS: It’s just overstraining them, is it, full fuel, full bombload climb to heights. Coming back from the raids, what was your pilot like? Was he one of those that, wanted to pour on the coal and get home early or did he stick to heights and courses as briefed or?
HH: Well, he couldn’t do much else with a Halifax. But when I was on Mosquitos, with our New Zealand pilot, we were always first back [laughs]. Yeah.
AS: Becomes a matter of pride. On your first tour still perhaps we can talk a bit more about that. As you got towards the end, did the, you knew presumably you were going to stop on, what, thirty trips?
HH: Well, I did twenty six in fact.
AS: Okay.
HH: Which we were screened two trips early. I would have done twenty eight for my first tour, ‘cause the pilot had already done two second Dickey trips to start with. [door bell rings] That’s my taxi now.
AS: Okay.
HH: So I’ll just pause this. [recording paused] We were just talking about your tour length. The question I was going to ask is did you feel a real rising tension as you got towards the end of your tour?
HH: But we didn’t know we were towards the end, we thought we had another two trips to do.
AS: Okay.
HH: But, I remember Sam coming in and he says, ‘I have some good news for you, we’re screens and you’re off on leave from tomorrow. You are all going on leave tomorrow.’
AS: What did that feel like?
HH: Mh?
AS: What did that feel like?
HH: Ah, it was good feeling but I forget what happened now. When I was on Mosquitos I think when I was doing my last trip on Mosquitos ‘cause you had to do fifty on Mosquitos you see for a tour.
AS: So, you finished on 102 Squadron and were there many crews that went all the way through like yours did?
HH: No, not a great deal, I wish I had the [unclear] I’ve got it somewhere, might be in that case there, book of all the losses, you know. 102 Squadron losses.
AS: Oh, perhaps we can look at that tomorrow or now if you like.
HH: Well I, it might be in that case, I’m not sure.
AS: Let’s pause this and we’ll go and have a look. [recording paused]
AS: Harry, good morning, it’s day two of our interview sessions. It’s very good of you to agree to this interview. Can we start by going back to your first tour of operations during the Battle of the Ruhr on Halifaxes. Were you conscious at the time that this was a major battle or was it just one job after another?
HH: We were trying to hit Germany where it hurt, ‘cause we didn’t only go to the Ruhr and we went to places like Pilsen, and then we did Nuremberg and Munich and.
AS: Were you briefed on specific targets in these cities and told what you were going after?
HH: Oh, we knew that Essen was the Krupp works, yeah, and we were given a good, pretty good briefing by the intelligence officer what we were gonna hit because one time we went, we were going to. There was almost a mutiny one day because they were sending to some place I forget, Gelsenkirchen or somewhere, I forget where it was now, and [pause]
AS: What happened then? What was the mutiny all about?
HH: Well, the intelligence officer said that he didn’t know why we were going there, there was nothing there, there was just a spa town that we were going to hit but what we didn’t know, of course, it was a leave centre for the Gestapo and the place was full of the Gestapo officers and but you know initially we said, no, why are we going there, you know? And there was almost not exactly a mutiny but it was a fear of you know, why are we bombing this place, we probably would just hit a lot of women and children.
AS: So, this was 1943. So even at that stage.
HH: This is ’45. ‘43 rather.
AS: So, even at that stage there were some concerns amongst the crews about what you were doing and where you were going.
HH: Yeah, we didn’t, the Hamburg raids for example. That’s the first time there was a real firestorm and we went on three or four of those raids, I forget now, it’s in the book, Hamburg in July ’43. That book is falling to bits, isn’t it?
AS: Well, it happens to all of us, doesn’t it? As we get older. Here we go, 24th of July ’43 and the 27th of July ‘43. Ops Hamburg, yeah. And then the 2nd of August.
HH: Yeah, the 2nd of August when we, we’d already realised that the firestorms, you know, in then, we were dropping our incendiaries first and setting fire to places and then dropping four thousand pounders, two and four thousand pounders on top of the fires which, that’s why it’s called the firestorm, the blast from the comparatively thin-cased two thousand pounders and what have you, would suck in the air and the oxygen, you know, and cause these firestorms.
AS: So, the thin-cased bombs would blow the roofs off and then the incendiaries would go inside and.
HH: Well, you know, in that, wish I could find that, you could sit and watch that, the CD I’ve got somewhere in there of.
AS: Is it of a Hamburg raid?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Is it of a Hamburg raid?
HH: Yes, the first or second of the Hamburg raids which caused the firestorm. And I remember watching this from over the bomb aimer’s shoulder and watching these fires spreading and I remember saying, I felt very sorry for the people down there.
AS: At that time.
HH: At that time, yeah. In fact I said a little prayer for them.
AS: Is this something you discussed with the crew or any of your friends?
HH: Not really, no. I just said a prayer to myself, yeah.
AS: And was that really specific to Hamburg or to?
HH: Just to Hamburg, yeah. ‘Cause that was where the firestorms first started. Well, it was worst then Dresden actually.
AS: I believe so in the numbers lost. So, your first tour was absolutely in the thick of what we call the Battle of the Ruhr and extremely, extremely difficult and dangerous missions.
HH: The people who came after me, they’d done Hamburg and the Battle of the Ruhr, and then they had to follow on doing the Battle of Berlin. You can find my very last trip was to Berlin I think, no, it was Hanover. It was one of my last trips was to Berlin, that’s when I went on crutches, yeah.
AS: Home on three engines, that one?
HH: Was that Berlin?
AS: Yes, 23rd of August. And then you did a Munich and a Hanover. What was Berlin like? Was it special, was it the
HH: Pardon?
AS: Was Berlin perhaps the best defended target? What was Berlin like?
HH: It was the length of the trip really. You know, on heavies, on Lancs and heavies it took us eight and a half hours there and back. What’s it say there? [paper rustling]
AS: Seven hours fifteen, that’s still an incredible time. People talk about eight hour days, and that was a full day’s work at night.
HH: Was a full day’s work was being shot at too.
AS: And, I mean, was Berlin the best defended target, do you think or was that the Ruhr, perhaps?
HH: No, I think, I don’t think it was as bad as the Ruhr but it was, there was plenty of activity there but mainly a lot of fighter activity there over the target, over Berlin.
AS: And you, you could see the enemy?
HH: Oh yeah. They were coned and searchlights one time I was on Mosquitos, there was two Mosquitos, an Fw 190, and an Me 109, all on the same cone.
AS: Wow!
HH: And there is a painting of that somewhere. I described it, you know. And there is a painting somewhere that is called Berlin Express. And [unclear] have got the original.
AS: Okay, I’ll look for that.
HH: [unclear] then.
AS: Okay. Some trips to France as well. Le Creusot. You weren’t after a saucepan factory there were you, what was, can you remember what that trip was about?
HH: Oh yes, that was, they were manufacturing parts for tanks and things, I think.
AS: Gosh, here, after Le Creusot, Muhlheim, home on two engines.
HH: Yeah [laughs]
AS: What’s the story behind that? Did they just pack up or was it flak or?
HH: Yeah, they just packed up on us yeah, these Merlins were you know they were way overstressed on the Halifax and we came back on two on that occasion, yeah.
AS: After a lot of, after the Hamburgs that we talked about and Berlin, Munich. Now, can you remember that trip? September ’43 to Munich.
HH: Yeah.
AS: First off, first back, in your log book, eight hours, fifty five minutes. Did the stream hold together, the bomber stream hold together over these long distances?
HH: Yeah, you we were all given certain times, you know, you had to be at certain times on all the way along the track, at the various turning points, you know. And I think it did help, you know, no doubt about it and then with the advent of Window of course, it just threw their ground tracking, we had a little device, did I tell you, a little device called Boozer in Mosquitos.
AS: No, you didn’t, no.
HH: We had a little device which, when they were tracking you from the ground, a little yellow light used to glow. But when they were tracking from the air, a red light used to glow. And one night, we were coming back, and somewhere around about the Hamburg, sorry the Bremen Hanover gap, and this red light came on very bright and we knew the red light meant we were being tracked from the air you see. And then suddenly over the top of us, about the height of this building, just came two, I think they were Me 263s,
AS: The jets?
HH: The jets, yeah. Right over the top of us. And they didn’t see us. I got a photograph of a Mosquito somewhere I don’t know what she’s done with it now. I meant to ask her that when she was in last night.
AS: No worries, maybe today. So, this, the 262s had the speed, they were the only ones with the speed to catch you, really.
HH: Yes. They were doing about a hundred knots faster than us. Fifty to a hundred knots faster than us. And they just sailed over the top of us and disappeared in the distance. There were four jets, two of them.
AS: So they had radar airborne in the jets.
HH: Yes.
AS: That is a pretty dangerous development, isn’t it? That was another one of your nine lives gone, really, wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Your slices of luck. Back to your first tour, you, when did you come off ops?
HH: I went to a conversion unit, at a place called Wombleton.
AS: Okay, was that Stirlings?
HH: No, it was Halifaxes actually but.
AS: Okay.
HH: Canadian group, they are mainly on Halifaxes.
AS: In 6 Group, how did you get on with the Canadians?
HH: Not very well.
AS: Really?
HH: No. They are very, they didn’t want to know us, you know, they just wanted to get rid of us as quickly as they could.
AS: I’ve heard this that they were running,
HH: They wanted to run their own show.
AS: [unclear] as part of the Canadian.
HH: I remember getting one crew and I said, I wanted to send them back for further training because the navigator was absolutely hopeless. He really was, he couldn’t, it was like putting, I don’t know, he was thick as two planks, he couldn’t. So, I said if you’re sending this crew with this navigator they don’t stand a chance of getting through, not a chance at all. They’ll be shot down on, within their first five operations, they’ll be shot down.
AS: And do you know whether that came to pass?
HH: No. They didn’t like this, you know, the fact that I’d criticised one of their Canadian crews and I was posted down to 3 Group and, which suited me, and the crew got to squadron, got to a squadron and they did one trip and got hopelessly lost and I heard it afterwards that the CO of the, I think it was Lane, what was his name? Lane. He said, what the hell are you doing sending us crews that are, they should have been send back for further training. And I had recommended that.
AS: Had you been commissioned by this point?
HH: Yes, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: I was commissioned at the end of my first tour, I think.
AS: What sort of process what that? How did that take place?
HH: Pardon?
AS: How did, what sort of process what that? How did that take place?
HH: I just had an interview, I don’t know, who I had an interview with now, I can’t remember. And I mean after the interview I was then a pilot officer but I was a flight sergeant before and my pay was sixteen shillings a day as a flight sergeant but as a pilot officer I was only going to get fourteen and four pence a day. So they said, oh, we can’t have that so they gave me a six pence rise, six pence a day rise so I was getting fourteen and six a day as a pilot officer. And then eventually when I was a flight lieutenant after a couple of years, I was out in India by that time, and I got, well I was on Indian rates of pay anyway so, it didn’t factor.
AS: Back to the instructing. You finished an operational tour, had some leave and presumably your crew dispersed.
HH: Yeah. Pilot went to Rufforth converting many French Canadians and to go to Elvington, French, I mean French crews rather, French crews to go to Elvington, to 77 Squadron.
AS: Did you keep in touch with any of your crew members after?
HH: I came up to York a couple of times and met Sam, Jackie Miles I used to see and my gunner and Harry [unclear] the, the last time I’ve heard from him, he was up at near Shrewsbury.
AS: You all went to instructors jobs, do you?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did they teach how to be an instructor or did they just send you off?
HH: No, I just went in and just talked to them and told them where they were going wrong, you know, and how to waste time and things like that.
AS: In the air this is.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, did you do any formal classroom training of these chaps or was it just, what, supervising in the air and on the ground?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Supervising?
HH: Yeah, just going through their logs and charts individually with them and showing them where they’d gone wrong.
AS: And I believe the same sort of thing used to happen on ops, that when you came back your nav leader would go through your charts, is that right?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: They’d assess your, that’s the assessment on each one there.
AS: That we saw before.
HH: The little design on his wall, Charlie had, he had sort of a little square beside each one of you and you had two dots for very good, one dot for reasonably good, no dots at all for
AS: Average.
HH: Just average. Yeah.
AS: That’s his way of keeping track. So, on 3 Group, is this when you went to Stirlings? When you were training?
HH: Pardon?
AS: When you left the Canadians and went to 3 Group, that was, what was that, Stirlings, was that the Conversion Unit there?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: Yeah, it’s down at Chedburgh.
AS: Okay.
HH: And, yeah, Chedburgh, near Bury St Edmunds. There was a beer drought down at that time and we used to cycle miles to find a pub with beer [laughs]. Then we’d keep very quiet about it [laughs].
AS: It’s not too bad.
HH: Me and a Canadian called Connors and we wanted to, we’d heard about that 8 Group wanted Mosquito pilots and navigators, so, we both applied to go, we both applied to go back on ops together. So, our first application, we were turned down because, being in 3 Group on Stirlings, you know, they were rather short of crews, and so we were turned down anyway. So we waited a couple of weeks and we applied again and we got turned down again. So that night, I got a tin of black paint from the stores and I wrote a message, a letter on the ceiling of the mess to the group captain, quite a polite letter, would you kindly pull your finger out and get us posted back on ops. We’re fed up with this instructing so could we please get back in so and so and signed it Connor and Hughes. The following day we were up in front of the old man and he said, ‘Right, you’re both going back, no way you’re going on the same crew or on the same squadron. In fact, you go back first, Hughes. Connor will follow you in about two- or three-weeks’ time.’ And this is what happened.
AS: It’s amazing. So you weren’t actually instructing for very long, were you?
HH: No, from October until July, so I suppose six months.
AS: Okay.
HH: And you’re supposed to have six months, at least six months rest, you know? From operations. Between tours.
AS: Okay. And then, in July having arranged your own posting really, you arrive at 1655 MCU. What’s MCU?
HH: Mosquito conversion unit.
AS: Okay.
HH: At Warboys, yeah, and Weston [?].
AS: I imagine this must have been a completely different sort of navigating. Was it?
HH: Oh, just very quick, but you, you wouldn’t think it now but I was very, very neat and tidy in what I did. I knew exactly, I used to keep my pencils in my flying boots, my dividers as well, [unclear] my Douglas protractor I kept in my hat with my dividers, which was behind me and my Dalton and, and then we used to take as your [unclear] fix, as soon as you got airborne, you got to operational high I’d take fix, fix, fix, every three minutes, then work out a tracking ground speed wind velocity and then another three minutes later another fix, a nine minute tracking ground velocity plus the sixth, the latest sixth one and another one, further on, six, and I can tell you exactly which way the wind was going, how far out the met was on their winds.
AS: And these fixes would be visual fixes or Gee fixes or both?
HH: Gee fixes.
AS: Gee fixes.
HH: So I’d take fix, fix, fix, you worked really hard to get the timing, you know, of the.
AS: Whereabouts was the Gee screen in the aeroplane? You were sitting on the right in the [unclear]
HH: I was sitting on the right and the Gee was behind me and LORAN as well.
AS: Okay. So.
HH: Gee and LORAN which was behind me.
AS: So, could you operate the equipment with your harnesses done up?
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: ‘Cause you just turned your head and⸻
HH: I just turned my head. It was just like there, behind me, there, but I could turn easier then and it was there, you know, just behind about there, about that angle to me.
AS: And it is just, as you say, second nature, three minutes, three minutes.
HH: It didn’t take long to take the fix but it took a long time but we, we had charts with the letters, lines of the Gee chart superimposed on top of it. So, this really worked very well.
AS: So, what came up on the Gee screen? What allowed you to compare the screen to the map?
HH: Pardon?
AS: What was the presentation on the Gee screen? What actually came up? Was it numbers or?
HH: Yeah. Well, you just, you could, you worked out, you knew what, you strobed the whichever signal you wanted to take, you know, and then you, you strobed the two of them and then fix and then you just read it off.
AS: I guess it’s, so you gotta an alphanumerical printout did you virtually.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Wow. So that could be done quickly.
HH: It’s quite, it’s very quick to work it all out, yeah, to work it out to get, to actually calculate the winds on your Dalton.
AS: How did you operate at night, because I imagine you had no lights in the cockpit?
HH: Well, we had enough.
AS: Okay.
HH: We had a red light and then, what’s his name? Anderson, our group navigation officer, he found that red, you couldn’t see the red markings on your chart. So, that was all orange and green.
AS: Which was easier to see.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Okay. So, when you’d done your Mosquito conversion unit or at the Mosquito conversion unit, you must have crewed up with a pilot, how did that go?
HH: Well, I had already wanted to fly with this Australian so, when this New Zealander came along, I thought, he’ll do, I crewed up with him.
AS: As simple as that. And did you do, did the aeroplane Mosquito take some getting used to it, so different from a heavy bomber, with different performance and.
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: What was she like to fly in?
HH: It was nice and reasonably fast. And I don’t think you really noticed it until you were doing some low flying.
AS: Shall we take a pause there? Okay. [recording paused]
HH: The Mosquito was, it was terribly difficult for a navigator to get out of.
AS: Why was that?
HH: Well, you had to, first of all you had to get hold of your chute and you kept that on, then you had to jettison two hatches to get out,
AS: Underneath.
HH: Underneath, yeah. Slightly forward towards the nose, yeah. And but by which time your pilot probably gone out of the top and you were spiralling down and the chance of you getting out was pretty slim.
AS: This hatch underneath must have been very close to the starboard propeller.
HH: Yes, we, yeah. Yes, it was quite close, yeah.
AS: Did you practice this on the ground a lot?
HH: No. I don’t think they thought you were, it was worth the risk. But the, a friend of mine used to fly with a man called Gill and he went down, got killed, Ronnie Knaith went down with his aircraft, and Gill got out and came home and he went to see Ronnie’s parents and they just slammed the door in his face, they wouldn’t talk to him. ‘Cause they had thought that he’d should have stayed onto the controls until Ronnie got out. Which is really what one was supposed to do.
AS: I hadn’t realised that the drill for the pilot was to go out of the top.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Because there’s a tailfin behind.
HH: Yeah, you jettison, you jettison the hood I think, the whole hood went. And theoretically the navigator could’ve gone out after him, I suppose, but.
AS: I think overall the losses were less on the Mosquito.
HH: Oh yeah.
AS: I think you were safer flying in a Mozzie than in a Halifax.
HH: Yes, I mean, there’s somewhere I got the losses in Hamish’s book, in Hamish Mahaddie’s book, all the losses in 8 Group and you will see that 692 do feature quite regularly, you know.
AS: Yeah, so you were posted to 692 Squadron after the conversion unit. You’d had, I suppose, eight months away from ops by then, ten months, had things changed a lot in that time?
HH: I don’t think they’d changed all that much for the heavies, no. And we operated separately and we used to do Window opening for the heavies, we used to do, we used to fly out with the heavies and used to meet up with them at Reading, they’d all congregated there, what’s that? There is something squeaking, did you hear?
AS: I don’t know, let’s pause the tape.[recording paused] Well, Harry, we discovered what the squeak was, it was the smoke alarm. We were talking about Window opening and you meeting the heavies over Reading.
HH: Yeah. We used to fly down with the and meet up with the heavies and then we’d weave in and out of them, stream, you know, and you could see the strength of the stream then because, you know, there was just a whole block of them all over the horizon.
AS: And these are daylights.
HH: Yeah, in daylight, yeah, it would be. And then somebody in one of the heavies would be signalling to us, you lucky bastards or words to that effect. So I was sent back, been there, done that [laughs].
AS: Fair do’s. Because you could fly a lot faster and a lot higher than they could.
HH: Well, we used to be, weave in and out of them, you see. And then, then when you got to the coast, you climbed very rapidly above and you got to your operational height. If we were going to say, if we were Window opening say for Stuttgart, we’d probably do a, you go to Cologne first and drop a few bundles of Window there making them, making them think that was the target, you see. And then we’d go along to wherever, Stuttgart, and where the main force were going, and we’d, we’d do Window opening for the first wave of Pathfinders going in.
AS: Okay. This was the, was this the main role of 692 Squadron?
HH: Pardon?
AS: Was this the main role of 692 Squadron?
HH: Yeah, well, we were the light night striking force, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: But our main role was to bomb Berlin every night.
AS: Oh, you were involved in this Berlin shuttle?
HH: Yes. So, we used to drop our cookie, we used to drop Window for the heavies and then we’d go along to Berlin and drop our four thousand pounders, keep them awake.
AS: Ah, so, did you have those special Mosquitos then?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Those with the pregnant bomb bay?
HH: That one there, isn’t it?
AS: Yes. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So, who got to drop the bomb? Was it you or the driver?
HH: Me.
AS: You.
HH: Yeah. Unless we were doing low level. And even then it was me up on the front, up in the nose.
AS: How did you, how did you drop Window from a tiny little aeroplane like Mosquito?
HH: We had a chute, little wooden chute which used to go through the two doors and we just dropped bundles of Window through that. Remember to grab the string as it went down, otherwise you’d just drop bundles [laughs].
AS: You don’t want them falling on someone’s head and hurting them, do you?
HH: No [laughs]. So, it’s a nice day now, isn’t it?
AS: It’s wonderful out there. It’s great. So, sometimes you were operating with the main bomber stream and sometimes as 8 Group by yourself or squadron by yourself?
HH: Individually, yeah.
AS: Individually too?
HH: We used to fly, we used to sing, I made up, there was a song going round at that time sung by Hildegard, I walk alone, to tell you the truth I’ll be lonely, I don’t mind being lonely, when my heart tells me you are lonely too. So, I made up the words for our squadron, we fly alone, when all the heavies are grounded and dining, 692 will be climbing, we still press on, it’s every night, though they never will give us a French route, for the honour of 8 Group, we’ll still press on.
AS: That’s fantastic.
HH: It’s always a [unclear] no matter how far, one bomb is slung beneath, it’s twelve degrees east, one engine at least [laughs]. It’s a pretty horrible little song.
AS: it’s brilliant. It sums up what you felt.
HH: Not as good as some of the songs, you see, erks used to make up in India and down in Burma, you know. One they used to sing, rotting in the jungle, on a [unclear] marshy shores, dysentery, malaria and bags of jungle sores, living around in a bloody great heap, our beds are damp, we cannot sleep, we’re going round the corner, we’re going round the bend, two trips to Meiktila, maybe three or four, AOL’s a keen type, he thinks we’re doing more. When we get back as you can guess, we’ll put this effing kite US [laughs] and we’re going round the, and there’s about two more verses to that, I can’t remember, that’s when the mail arrives, and there’s two for you and f.a. for me you know [laughs].
AS: I think we will have to try and get you a recording contract. This could be an excellent CD on the wireless.
HH: I don’t think they’d allow it to be broadcast.
AS: Probably not, probably not. But see, you, it sounds as you had very high morale on the squadron.
HH: Oh yeah. But, yes, this was when I was on ferrying.
AS: And on 692, as you say, opening with Window and then lots and lots of trips to
HH: Berlin.
AS: To Berlin. Did you ever get involved in a double trip, I believe some people, some crews did two trips to Berlin in one night.
HH: Yeah, we did, on one occasion we did. I think we did Duisburg in the morning and Berlin that night. Came back, and refuelled and bombed up again and we were away again.
AS: There must have been, I would expect, a cumulative tiredness at that level of operations. I’ve seen your ops on your second tour are very close together.
HH: Yeah.
AS: First of October, third, fourth, fifth, two on the fifth, very, very very close together and then Berlin followed the next night by Cologne. Did you, were you conscious of getting tired?
HH: Well, no, because when you’re off, you went into town and into Cambridge and I met up with my girlfriend and she was lovely, my girlfriend, I must have a picture of her, I did have a picture. She was beautiful, she was lovely red hair and creamy skin, you know, and green eyes, oh, she was beautiful. I used to walk down the street with her and everybody would stop and stare, at her, not at me [laughs].
AS: I was going to ask that. And you met her when you joined the squadron?
HH: When I joined 692, yeah. Yeah, we were walking, you remember, do you remember the Red Lion in Cambridge?
AS: I don’t know Cambridge well. I know where the airfield is.
HH: There used to be a passage where you could go through, you’d start off in the Baron of Beef, down by the river there and, and then you go from there to the Bun Shop and to get to the Bun Shop you have to walk through the Red Lion right, right the way through there, the foyer, there is a bar, two bars there and when I walked through there one night, there was Red sitting there with two of her friends and as I walked through, I said, ‘Cor’ to who I was with and I caught red hair and no drawers, and I said, ‘I’m in’ [laughs]. And she followed me through to the Bun Shop and that’s how I met up with her [laughs].
AS: Excellent. Probably best not pursue that story too much further, I think. So, you’ve got here on a trip to Berlin, landed Woodbridge. Now⸻
HH: Yeah.
AS: I know that Woodbridge is one of the emergency landing grounds.
HH: Yeah, well we, very often we had to land, when we took S-Sugar, which is a bloody awful aircraft with a terrible fuel consumption, if we took that to Berlin, we would end up, always end up landing short of fuel at Woodbridge. In fact, one night, when Harris was on this station, we were the only squadron operating that night, so he came to our briefing. [phone ringing]
AS: I’ll pause there. So, after the phone call, we were talking about S-Sugar and its ability to drink fuel.
HH: Yeah, on this night Harris was at the and [unclear] Northrop, our CO was reading out the battle order, you know, and he said, came to, flying officer Mormo, S-Sugar, ‘S-Sugar?’ said Roy, ‘What’s wrong with our Robert?’ ‘Well, that’s got a mark drop on the starboard engine, you’re going to have to take the spare.’ ‘But S f for Sugar, sir, that bloody kite flies like a brick shithouse!’ [laughs] and old Harris was standing there, and he was trying his best not to laugh, you know, his moustache had a twitch and [laughs] you could he’s gonna laugh every minute, you know. But he didn’t, he held it in [laughs]
AS: What was Woodbridge like? Is an emergency landing ground very different from a normal airfield?
HH: Oh yeah, you, huts with the roof off, you know, half off and snow would come in, on a snowy night, yeah.
AS: Not finished?
HH: No, they had just blown off. That’s a nuisance that thing, isn’t it?
AS: Your smoke alarm, yeah. As we got to this time or you got to this time in the war, this was late 1944.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Had the scene changed in terms of aids to navigation, things like Sandra lights and Darky and ground organisation, was there a lot to help you?
HH: [unclear] Much on the ground I think, mainly H2S, Oboe, things like that, you know. And G8, wasn’t it? G8.
AS: G-H, yeah. I didn’t, I don’t know how that worked, I never had that but we were quite content with LORAN. In fact, I got a wind over, going down to, I forget where I was going, Berlin I suppose, but yeah, we were going over to Berlin I think and I got a wind just north of the Ruhr, a hundred and ninety five knots.
AS: Wow!
HH: And what we’d done, we hit a jet stream, you see, and but when I came back, I said to the met man, I got a wind of a hundred, impossible, impossible, impossible, and it went to Group and Group said impossible as well, went to Command and Command said impossible well then when everybody started to get them, they suddenly realised there was something in this jet stream. Now they talk about nothing else but the bloody jet stream and it annoys me that because they ignored their existence during the war, the met people did and we kept telling them, look there is something up there and it didn’t last very long, you see, you were in it and then you were out of it, you know. So you couldn’t use it as a general wind to carry on to Berlin, shall we say for example, and nor could you use it when you were coming back. You might hit it again but it’d be in a different place slightly and.
AS: It must have meant that you had to be on your toes with your fixes all the time.
HH: Yeah. Anyway we,
AS: In your logbook, it suddenly goes from duty as nav to duty nav b. What was the significance of?
HH: Well, I stood in as bomb aimer as well.
AS: Ah, okay, that’s what it was. Tremendous number of operations over the winter of ’44-’45.
HH: Yeah.
AS: So I presume you must have flown in most weather with the nav aids that you had.
HH: Oh yeah, I remember one night, I don’t know if I should say this because it’s a bit derogatory to somebody who’s now dead, and that’s to Don Bennett. He was in the control tower on this particular night and we were getting hoarfrost all along the wings of our, as we taxied out we were getting hoarfrost develop all along the wings, so Roy got onto control and he says, ‘Could we have the de-icing bowsers out, please?’ And Bennett said, ‘Never mind about the de-icing bowser, just get off the deck.’ Well, we didn’t go, we said, ‘No, no. It’s too dangerous.’ Anyway, another aircraft came after us and they ploughed into the end of the runway and they were both killed of course when their bomb blew up. And Bennett never said a word to us afterwards, he was, we came back for briefing that night and he’d left the station. We came back and got the de-icing bowser and got cleared of the hoarfrost. He literally left, you see. And then we went to Berlin that night, I think.
AS: I should think, with fuel and a four thousand pounder you must have needed all the runway to get off.
HH: Yeah, well, there is another tale attached to that, the, you see, we started off with four thousand pounders, I think we were the first squadron to have four thousand pounders, and then they put fifty gallon drop tanks on each wing which were increased eventually to seventy five and then a hundred and then, and then we ran out of four thousand pounders and we had to borrow four thousand pounders from the Americans, which were four and a half thousand pounds. So another five hundred pounds to get off the deck. But the old Mozzie just used to take it all in its stride. No bother.
AS: You had no concerns.
HH: No, and I remember one day when I’d finished tour. I was sitting in the crew room minding my own business and the CO, a Canadian called Bob Grant came in and he said, ‘You doing anything Hughes?’ I said, no. He said, ‘Grab yourself a ‘chute would you and I’ll see you out at the aircraft.’ I said, ‘What do you⸻’ ‘Just bring a local Gee chart and local maps, would you?’ So when I got out to the bay, they were loading a four thousand pounder and I said, ‘Well, what fuel have we got?’ ‘You’ve a got full load of fuel and two hundred gallon drop tanks.’ And there’s a wind blowing right the way down the 330 runway which was fourteen hundred feet or something compared with two thousand feet on the main runway. I said, ‘What are we gonna do then?’ He said, ‘We’re gonna see if we can get off with this wind, the scale blowing, see if we can get off on this, on the fifteen hundred runway.’ So, we got to the end of the runway, and he waited until there was a gust of wind blowing, until the airspeed indicator was indicating about fifty or sixty knots. And we went. And I dropped the cookie on the live bomb target in the Wash and then we came back. And he got a report and said it wasn’t possible. I said, ‘Well, thanks for telling me.’ [laughs] it wasn’t possible. And he said, ‘No, no, no,’ he said, ‘I don’t think the crew, you could expect the whole crew to wait’, the whole squadron rather to wait until there was a lull, that’s turned till there was a gust of wind which would get them off the deck.
AS: It’s a good example of leading from the front though, isn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Doing the test himself.
HH: It was old Bob Grant, he’s dead now, he married a Yorkshire, he was CO of 105 Squadron, amongst other things and he was, when he got back to Canada, of course he was made up to brigadier, I think. He was a group captain here, so he was a brigadier. That was equivalent to air commodore, wasn’t it?
AS: I think so, yeah, yeah.
HH: I don’t know.
AS: And, ah, there it is Group Captain Grant, 19th of March 1945, bombload take off fourteen hundred yards. That was pretty much the end of your operational flying, I think, wasn’t it?
HH: Yeah.
AS: On the Mosquito. Last trip, February, February ’45.
HH: Hanover, wasn’t it? Or Hamburg, Hanover.
AS: Frankfurt, I think, Frankfurt in your log. And did you know that that would be your last trip or you’re just told you’re screened?
HH: Yeah. You knew you had to do fifty on Mosquitos. So.
AS: And what did happened after that? Did you go back instructing or?
HH: No, no, we were sent on leave and when we came back, we’d been posted, several crews had been posted down to Pershore to ferry Canadian built Mosquitos across the Atlantic. And I crewed up with a different, Lloyd had gone back to New Zealand and he used to fly with Air New Zealand after the war. And thanks to me, because someone had put a bottle through his hand and all the tendons had gone. And so he couldn’t, when we were taking off at Whiten once doing a cross country, we got airborne and suddenly the throttle went back and he grabbed hold of them and held it with his hand and because you had to keep the throttle up so loose ‘cause of this weakness in his left hand. So I said, ‘I’ll tell you what we’ll do, Roy, from now on I’ll tighten the throttle knot for you when you’re ready. As soon as you want, you just say, throttle knob and I will reach through and grab the throttle knob and turn it and tighten it for you.’ And we did that every trip. And but I, ‘cause I had to reach over, I couldn’t strap in, so I did all my trips without strapping in [laughs]. I never strapped in again, not with Roy flying. So he’d of never, I mean, he was flying with Air New Zealand afterwards he’d never have passed their medical if he’d of disclosed it, you know.
AS: But eventually, not in a Mosquito, but he’d be flying with throttles on the other hand, wouldn’t he? So the problem,
HH: Yeah.
AS: The problem would go away. So you’d had some leave, you were posted to fly to Pershore to fly Mosquitos.
H: Yeah. And we were sent on indefinite leave, Pershore sent us on indefinite leave. And I thought, oh God, I’ll be grounded for sure. So, I got on a train and went up to Air Ministry and saw a wing commander there and I said, look, there is a war going in in the Far East [unclear] aircraft ferried out there, coming back for maintenance and what have you. And he said, what a good idea, you know, come back in the morning, will you? And I got the whole lot posted out to the Far East. Fifteen or eighteen, I think I told you this before, didn’t I?
AS: I think so but we didn’t get in on the tape, I don’t think, no.
HH: No.
AS: I bet you were popular.
HH: Fifteen, oh God, when I got down to Lyneham they were moaning, ‘I’m just due for demob for God’s sake, why the heck do I have to, due for demob any day now.’
AS: I bet you kept quiet.
HH: And here I am, so I kept very quiet. And so, I mean I wasn’t due for demob for some time.
AS: So here we are, Lyneham in July ’45. A huge trip as a passenger on a deck. Thirty two hours flying.
HH: Yeah, back to Karachi, yeah.
AS: So by going, going East, you, did you, before you went, did you see, did you go on any of these trips over, over Germany to see all the destruction?
HH: No, no.
AS: Okay.
HH: I missed all that.
AS: You’d said earlier that you said a prayer for the people of Hamburg. What, at the end of the war, did you reflect at all on the, or during that, on the bombing? And what were your feelings about being involved in it in the war?
HH: Well, I’ve spoken to our vicar about it, you know, and said, do you think Saint Peter’s gonna let me through the gates? Or not. So she sat and he said a prayer for me. Lady vicar of course. Anyway, but I was invited out to Hanover as a guest of the mayor and the local newspaper to commemorate the 60th anniversary of when we bombed them.
AS: And you went?
HH: So I went over, yeah, well, I was asked to volunteer and I remember, at the Bomber Command meeting they said, did anybody go to Hanover, I said, well, I did. When I got home, I found out I’d been to Hanover about eleven times and [laughs] so I was well qualified.
AS: And are you pleased you went, did it turn out well?
HH: Yes, they were very, very, very nice, I like German people.
AS: So do I.
HH: I got two of them coming over now. Here any day now. I think. They stay up at [unclear] castle, ‘cause he’s paraplegic, he can’t get down my steps.
AS: Yeah.
HH: He’s, he had polio when he was a youngster. But they come over by air this time so he couldn’t bring his invalid scooter with him so I don’t know whether he’s gonna hire one when they’re here or not, I don’t know what they’re gonna do to get around.
AS: That should be possible, I think.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And these are friends you made when you went to Hanover?
HH: Yeah. Well, they were both reporters with the Hamburger Allgemeine. And anyway I was, the last day I was there in Hanover I was there for about three or four days, I had to attend a meeting of all the survivors from the raids and all the students from university there and the colleges and what have you and a little girl gets up and question time you see and she gets up and says, can I please explain what was the duty of the navigator? Well if you ask me a stupid question like that, I’m gonna give you a stupid answer, for sure. So I said, ‘Well, the reason why we carried a navigator, because we had to have someone on board who could read and write’ [laughs] and their mouths fell open, he went like this, everybody, so I said to my interpreter, I said, ‘Tell them, it was a joke, will you?’ ‘Ah, a joke, yeah, we got no sense of humour, we Germans, we’ve got no sense of humour at all.’ [unclear] So then, later on somebody, one of the survivors said, ‘Why did you bomb the city?’ So I said, ‘To be perfectly honest, we couldn’t hit anything smaller but just remember this,’ I said, ‘Right in the centre, almost within half a mile from the centre of Hanover there was the biggest rubber factory in Germany, so it made Hanover a very legitimate target.’ ‘Yes’, this man says, ‘But you didn’t hit it, did you? ‘Cause it’s still there!’ [laughs]. I said, ‘Well, and you tried to tell me that the Germans got no sense of humour?’ [laughs] And then I was on their side from then on.
AS: I’ve lived there for eleven years. I’m with you. I’ve lived there for eleven years.
HH: Have you?
AS: Yeah. They’re great people, great people. I think.
HH: In which part were you?
AS: I was in Munich for five years.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And then in Bonn and Cologne, in the Rhineland for about six altogether. Some of the places you visited by air, in fact. That’s the feelings of the Germans. How, there’s been a lot of controversy about how Bomber Command were treated after the war. Have you got any views on that?
HH: Well, I think, first of all, we should never, never have bombed Dresden, I think that was the biggest mistake we made. And Portal should have stood up and said, no! But he didn’t have the guts to do it, he didn’t have the guts to stand up to Churchill and it was Churchill who, on his way to Yalta, he stopped off at Malta, And they’d agreed to bomb five cities within reach of the Russian lines, you know, and I think Dresden was one and what’s that? And Leipzig and one other I think. Anyway he sent back this signal to Portal saying, from Malta saying, where is my spectacular, get on with it. So, Portal looked at the charts and he consulted the Met people and the only target available that night was Dresden. I didn’t go to Dresden, I went to Magdeburg, Magdeburg that night, you can see it on there, in that book there.
AS: You believe it was, that Dresden was the turning point and that?
HH: Mh?
AS: You believe that Dresden was some sort of turning point?
HH: Yeah.
AS: How Bomber Command were treated?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did you, do you feel now that it’s changed with the memorials and the clasp?
HH: Yeah, I think so. I think, there was a time just after the war, when the people who were against us were the people who were in the Air Force or in one of the forces and they felt that we were, they didn’t want us to have any publicity, you know.
AS: After the war.
HH: Yeah. And then, and then since then, they’ve suddenly realised that you know, we had the highest losses of any unit in the, our forces, fifty five thousand killed, which is quite a lot, wasn’t it?
AS: Yeah. Fifty five thousand, five hundred and seventy three.
HH: Yeah.
AS: And you’ve seen a, well, or you see a change in attitudes now.
HH: Yes, I think, younger people are much more inclined to want to hear about it and talk about it and understand why we did it and there is no good saying, well, we were under orders to do it, because that’s what the Germans excuses were, you know, for their treatment of the in the concentration camps. We were under orders.
AS: And you did it because it was right?
HH: Well, we did it because we thought we were, ‘cause we were shortening the war and therefore less people would be killed.
AS: Is it, I agree, you say, that now people want to hear about it, is it good for you and other veterans to be able to talk about it after all this time?
HH: It’s getting more and more difficult, there’s so many books have been written on there, now.
AS: And you are actually in one of the books.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Steve Darlow’s book. How did all that come about? Did you get involved with him?
HH: I don’t know. He wanted, I think I was recommended by probably Bomber Command, you know, Dougie Radcliffe.
AS: Oh, the Bomber Command Association.
HH: Yeah.
AS: Have you always played a big part in that?
HH: No, no, I was mainly in the Pathfinders Association.
AS: Oh, okay.
HH: We were separate from, we were separate from the Bomber Command Association, but I’d already joined the Bomber Command Association when we disbanded. I’d already been a member for several years.
AS: And do you belong to your squadron or 102 Squadron association as well?
HH: Yeah. Yes, it’s, I’ve written a letter to, when I went to the VJ-Day celebrations⸻
AS: Yes.
HH: We had to fill out a form travelling expenses and I got three hundred pounds from the Lottery Fund.
AS: Excellent.
HH: And my son Jeremy, who’d driven me up there and then he got three hundred pounds as well. And I don’t, I hope he hasn’t. So I wrote a letter to the Big Lottery and said, thanking them for their, I said, so, twice a year I’ve got to go to, up to Pocklington in Yorkshire, which is rather expensive for me now ‘cause you got to go up Virgin cross country you know, right the way up to York and it’s a long journey that. It’s an interesting journey but there’s no, there was a little old lady pushing the tray along, pushing the trolley along, you know, that’s all that you get to eat with some coffee and a fruitcake or something.
AS: It’s not the same as a full dining car.
HH: I like the dining cars on, I’m going up on the 22nd of October I think, coming back on the 23rd, I always travel back down on the dining car which, on a train with a dining car which leaves at seven o’clock in the evening.
AS: Do you still have wartime comrades that you’ll meet in Pocklington?
HH: Oh yes, yeah. Most of them are dead now but.
AS: So, a lot of reminiscing and’
HH: Yeah. There’s a friend of mine, who was a previous chairman, Tom Wingate, who, he wrote a book called Halifax Down, ‘cause he was shot down on his second tour, and I used to have a copy but I can’t find it now. I don’t know what I have done with it, I lose things all the time now.
AS: I have a copy at home, I can send you one.
HH: Pardon?
AS: I have a copy, I can send you one.
HH: You got a copy of that?
AS: Yeah, I have.
HH: Halifax Down, yes, it’s not a bad book, actually. Except that he joined the squadron the same time as I did, his crew did. And he’s quoted in his book, as if he was there three or four months before me. He’s quoted various trips and he’s got these out of those old war diaries, wish I could find that. I wonder where I put it?
AS: Well, you’ll have to take your logbook the next time you meet him.
HH: Oh no, he’s dead now.
AS: Okay.
HH: That’s why I’ve taken over as chairman.
AS: After you came off ops, you did this trip out to the Far East, did you then get involved in ferrying aeroplanes?
HH: In what?
AS: Did you then get involved in ferrying aeroplanes?
HH: Oh yes, yeah.
AS: Okay.
HH: It’s quite a lot really. My very first trip was down to Akyab, on the Arakan coast. I think I told you, didn’t I?
AS: Yes, but not into the tape. So, what happened on that trip?
HH: I don’t think that particular trip’s in there, actually, I looked for it the other day and I can’t find it. I must have left it out for some reason.
AS: This was the trip with the Japanese.
HH: Yes, all the way around us were Zeros, you know. We could hear them yacketing away and then this Indian crew comes on with their Hurricanes and the Japanese just disappeared.
AS: What was the radio conversation about with these Indian squadrons, red flight?
HH: Pardon?
AS: What was the radio conversation story about the?
HH: Oh, well, the Indian crews? ‘Yes, red leader to yellow leader, how do you read me, over? Yellow leader to green, you are not red, you are green, you know? Red leader to yellow leader, I am not green, I am red. And this Aussie voice comes up by the blue, you are black, you bastard’ [laughs].
AS: So, it’s still a combat area that you’re flying replacement aircraft I suppose in to the squadrons?
HH: Yeah.
AS: Did you get involved in flying damaged aircraft for repair?
HH: Oh, I used to fly back from say Kamila or with two Pratt & Whitney’s engines in the back and a load of ENSA girls as well amongst them [laughs], sitting where they could and trying not to get greasy, ‘cause these, and yeah.
AS: Yeah. Shall we, pause there I think?
HH: Yeah.
AS: And wind it up. Thank you that, It’s been absolutely wonderful to hear.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Harry Hughes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Sutch
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-10-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHughesWH151021
Format
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02:28:15 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Hughes volunteered for the Royal Air Force in 1940 and trained in America, where he was washed out as a pilot and then retrained as a navigator in Canada, flying Ansons and Wellingtons. In 1942 he converted to Halifaxes and flew operations with 102 Squadron over Germany, being awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal for flying an operation to Berlin whilst on crutches. He recounts the routines of preparing to go on operations and his use of navigation aids including Gee, LORAN and later, Boozer in Mosquitos. He was bombstruck twice during operations. He completed 26 operations including the bombing of Hamburg which he describes as a firestorm and recalls saying a private prayer for the people of Hamburg below. After his tour finished, he then instructed before applying to go back on operations with 8 Group, flying Mosquitos with 692 Squadron and dropping Window for Pathfinder forces in 1944/45. In 2004 he visited Hanover and discussed the raids with survivors of the war. He was a member of a number of post war service associations and kept in contact with his crewmates.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Southeast Asia
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Essen
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
United States
Alabama--Montgomery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
1943
1944
1945
102 Squadron
3 Group
6 Group
692 Squadron
8 Group
aircrew
Anson
Bennett, Donald Clifford Tyndall (1910-1986)
bomb struck
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
briefing
Distinguished Flying Cross
Distinguished Flying Medal
faith
Fw 190
Gee
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 1
Halifax Mk 2
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
incendiary device
Ju 88
Me 109
Me 110
Me 262
medical officer
meteorological officer
military service conditions
Mosquito
navigator
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
Portal, Charles (1893-1971)
promotion
RAF Chedburgh
RAF Harwell
RAF Riccall
RAF Wombleton
Stirling
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/878/11118/AHolmesEA160129.2.mp3
6370a9b710f91955ac01de568b0cbea5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Holmes, Ernest
Ernest A Holmes
E A Holmes
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ernest Holmes (1921 - 2021, 1058581, 157389 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 35 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Holmes, EA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: Testing one two three. I’m here in Perth to interview Ernest Holmes, ex Pathfinder pilot, what we’ll do Ernest is just, I’ll get you just to tell me your name, what you did in the RAF in your own words, just try and tell your story as best you can
EH: What story is it you want?
BB: When did you join the RAF and just not in great detail but just talk it through.
EH: I am Ernest Holmes and at the age of nineteen I volunteered for service in the RAF to train as a pilot and on the 10th of June 1940 I then left home which was on my mother’s birthday to go down to Padgate. From there I eventually did training in Blackpool, the square bashing, then I was posted to Hooten Park where I was working in operations room. Then I eventually got interviewed and accepted for training as a pilot. I went to Desford where I did the, sorry, I went
BB: That’s ok.
EH: Squire’s gate I think it was to ITW, from there I went to Desford to do the initial training on Tiger Moths after thirty hours accomplishing, then went to Canada for further advanced flying on twin engine aircraft, I went there on a [unclear] factory that was called Swen Fine and that was torpedoed in 1943
BB: God!
EH: But I went there on a I think there is a photograph
BB: We will have a look at those later. Thank you.
EH: I don’t know where I then
US: Can I just interrupt, do you take sugar?
BB: I take sweeteners.
US: Perfect. Right.
BB: Thank you very much. So, you went to Canada.
EH: Went to Canada. And then returned to the UK after six months in Canada
BB: You got your wings in Canada.
EH: Got my wings in Canada [unclear] sergeant. Then I went to Abindgon on Whitleys
BB: That was number 10 OTU.
EH: Yes. There I was assessed as exceptional and proof is in my logbook [laughs] and from there I went to train on the Halifaxes and from there I went to 76 Squadron
BB: So, that was the Halifax XCU.
EH: Yes.
BB: Where was that? Somewhere in Yorkshire?
EH: Outside Oxford.
BB: Outside Oxford, ok. Remember that. And then from there you went onto the squadron which was 76.
EH: 76 Squadron.
BB: So you crewed up at the OTU.
EH: We crewed up there and from 76 Squadron I had asked to go onto the Pathfinders so we eventually moved, I can’t recall the actual dates but the logbook [unclear]
BB: Right. Was that the whole crew or just you? Sometimes the whole crew would [unclear]
EH: The whole crew, the whole crew went.
BB: Ok. Now was that a end of tour discussion well chaps what we do [unclear] or do we go onto Pathfinders?
EH: No, it was just a posting.
BB: Oh, you’re posted?
EH: But I had already asked.
BB: [unclear] Oh, you requested it. Ok. That’s good.
EH: And we went.
BB: [unclear]
EH: And then we had to do the training on the Pathfinders and then from there I was moved to 35 Squadron. [unclear]
BB: [unclear]
EH: So we’d already completed about twelve operations or so on 76 Squadron, then we started the training with
BB: Pathfinders.
EH: Yes, the operations with 35 Squadron.
BB: And I suppose that was pretty intensive, all the instructing the markers and sky marking and ground marking and all that.
EH: Yes, it was just a job for us.
BB: Yes.
EH: But I still recall quite clearly the change of attitude of each person, we were all friends, we referred to each other by name, nick names, I was known as Shirley, short for Sherlock, for a long time I was Sherlock, and there was no Holmes came along, so differentiate I am Sher-ee.
BB: Ok, I got you, yes. Ah, ok.
EH: No. And times operations you had on the crews and on my last operation when I was shot down we had a mixed crew. I had two Canadian gunners, my navigator became station officer now deceased and he had DFC DFM and the engineer DFC DFM also deceased., they became chief engineer and also chief navigation instructor, so they came off my crew and I got Johnny Stewart, Derrick came with me but that night I had eight of a crew, not seven.
BB: yes, I counted that up on the [unclear].
EH: Pardon?
BB: Were you carrying an extra wireless op?
EH: The wireless operator wanted to learn how to use the radar
BB: Right.
EH: There was no special training so he came along. Training, been trained on operations and I had a second wireless operator
Bb:
EH: But I also had two gunners. The two Canadian gunners had previously had asked for me to finished their tours with me, they finished, the Canadian scheme was after thirty ops they went back home, they were no longer required to do anything or get involved in any activities in the war unless they chose so but they too wanted to go back home [unclear]
BB: So they did.
EH: They went back home. So I had two new gunners and also a new engineer, the engineer was on his first operation
BB: God!
EH: And I’m not quite certain if the gunner was. David has my logbook.
US: Yes, I got wartime and I’ve also got the flight plans.
EH: You have.
BB: That’s
EH: No. You’ll have to know. Ask the questions and I’ll give you a brief [unclear].
BB: Ok. From the information that I had already, from David, plus my own research material, I’ve sketched out here a tabular form, your career is by unwonded from the information I had.
EH: Yeah.
BB: You enlisted on the tenth of June 1940 as an AC2.
EH: That’s right.
BB: Service number 105851.
EH: Yes, 105851.
BB: And you were a UT pilot basically at that time.
EH: Yes.
BB: And then you went to ITW and then on to number 7 EFTS at Desford.
EH: That’s right.
BB: Where you learned to fly Tiger Moths and they had some Miles Magisters there as well.
EH: That’s right.
BB: And then you went to number 35 AFU North Battleford, Saskatchewan
EH: That’s right.
BB: Where you learned twin engine aircraft on the Airspeed Oxford.
EH: In the Oxford.
BB: In the Oxford. And you were made a sergeant at that stage.
EH: Yes, when you got your wings.
BB: Yes, that’s right. And then you went, came back to the UK, you went to number 10 OTU at Abington Whitley
EH: That’s right.
BB: And your station commander was group captain H M Massey, who happened to be later on in the same prison of war camp as you, as the senior RAF officer in Stalag Luft III.
EH: North compound, yes.
BB: Yes.
US: Did you know that, Dad?
EH: I did, no, I didn’t know it.
BB: He was senior British RAF officer, he was shot down and taken prisoner, I got it here, I can let you have all of this and then you went to HCU on Halifaxes and was promoted flight sergeant.
EH: I was a flight sergeant at Abingdon.
BB: At Abingdon, ok, so, ok, [unclear] and then you went on to the squadron and were commissioned pilot officer on the squadron shortly after you arrived, I think.
EH: it’s on 35 Squadron.
BB: Yes.
EH: Yes.
BB: Yes. And by the time you got to 76 you were already commissioned, you were promoted to pilot officer with the new service number 157389. And then you did your Pathfinders, you went missing on the 22nd of May in Holland on a raid to Dortmund
EH: That’s right.
BB: Shot down and evaded capture, fought with the French resistance for a while but you were betrayed by the Gestapo and taken to Stalag Luft III.
EH: Yes.
BB: Prisoner of war number 0288.
EH: I don’t know the number of prisoner of war.
BB: Here we are. And you were involved in the long march.
EH: Both two marches.
BB: Two marches. Ok. Your aircraft was MD762 code E for Edward.
EH: Can’t recall
BB: Yeah. And it crashed, obviously a night fighter got you and you had to get out of the aircraft and landed in a place near Middlebeers in North Bravent.
EH: Yes.
BB: At 0522 in the morning.
EH: Yep.
BB: And then obviously you made it on the 21st of May ’44 you became an acting flight lieutenant [unclear] gazette illustrated on the 10th of October 1945.
EH: I knew nothing about that till a year later.
BB: I got all this stuff for you. And then you were liberated at Lubeck and then you opted for a permanent commission and went on to do lots of other things, flying on Yorks and
EH: yes.
BB: All sorts of nice things and then you were at [unclear] in Kinloss for a while. I was a member of the RAF reserve for thirty three years, in the maritime world and spent a lot of time at Kinloss briefing and debriefing crews as an intelligence officer and then I went on to, after maritime I went on to fast jets, doing the same with fighter [unclear], I did that in both Gulf Wars and it is very interesting and If I hadn’t actually researching the RAF for years and years and years, I knew about the intelligence cycle and debriefing crews and that interest stood me in really good sted when I had stop the aircrew to deal with in their flying suits, and they just wanted to get to the bar and I wouldn’t le them go to the bar [unclear] they had been debriefed so it’s funny how life but that’s a fascinating story.
EH: That I was [unclear] again.
BB: So.
EH: Can I speak about?
BB: Of course you can. Yes.
EH: When we were shot down, there was no warning, no indication, there was no warning, interception, [unclear] just [mimics a noise] and I lost control of the aircraft, went into a dive, I had my feet on, trying to pull it back but one thing fortunately, I had the loose fissing harness, eventually I was on the [unclear] panel trying to pull the aircraft up, what I was doing of course pulling myself out of the seat, now I had already abandoned the walk southwest, I was somewhere getting near the coast and I choose south west but if I was near the coast walk around the German defences and I also broadcast on my radio so that crews would recognise my voice and this was so, whilst I was on the underground, now is this the part that you are interested in?
BB: yes, yes please, yes.
EH: They started and I landed and I started walking but there was a lot of cloud around, I had to stand and wait to wait till I could see the North Star decide which was North South East and West and I walking South West and I saw someone, this is out in the countryside, light a cigarette and I heard dogs barking so I walked away from that, the person lighting a cigarette a later found out was Derrick, we went away [unclear] because at the time that the second explosion took place where the engineer was in the hatch [unclear] under the escape hatch, Derrick was there, standing with his parachute clipped on, Donnie Stewart the navigator pulled the curtain back, touched me on the shoulder, which was the sign and I am still trying to point [unclear] and then there was a third bang, big explosion, I lost unconscious and I woke up hanging over the nose of the aircraft still strapped to my side with the loose harness fitting your arm and your arm [unclear] I pulled myself back and found my legs were trapped with the control column so I kicked them free, released my harness from the seat and then eventually released my leg and pushed myself off and then pulled my parachute and I just waited, I didn’t know where it was going to land and lot of mud, I don’t know if you [unclear] at that time, we could wear what we liked on our operations, I had an old style army trench coat but I used to use it as cover, the Canadians had leather jackets, leather coats, so some of us did dress up in the hopes that if you were shot down some camouflage, now whence I came across this farm and I knocked on the door, didn’t get an answer but there was a well, water well, I didn’t get an answer so so I opened this gate and the thing about the gate that struck me was a concrete bomb had been used as a pillar to the gate unknown to me the Germans had been using that farm area as a precious bombing range [laughs]
BB: Gosh! [unclear]
EH: So I continue walking and I hear dogs barking and I start walking through water think if there were dogs they would get my scent water would help, remember I am still I once shock I was fighting
BB: Sure but you, you know, it’s a big experience that kind
EH: And then I came to a wood and I started going through the wood, it’s amazing the noise you make at night time when you walk through and I heard dog was barking again, so I came out of the wood and I continued walking
BB: You still have your flying boots at this stage
EH: No, I never used my flying boots
BB: [unclear]
EH: Normal shoes.
BB: Ok, right.
EH: In fact the only gear I had was the roll neck clover on my blazer and my roll neck clover on my jacket and underwear I had my pyjama trousers on, that was all. And my shoes but in my socks I had a Bowie knife, I lost that and I know when I landed and [unclear] I was [unclear]
BB: You couldn’t find it
EH: And then I came to this [unclear] and was the only [unclear], I could hear noises and I thought it was a blacksmith that must have been, I heard this and I thought that’s a blacksmith I think I was thinking that’s the blacksmith and he will have a big handkerchief with a sandwich and I think I was going to steal that, however I came to this [unclear ] and I could see this church steeple and I thought I gotta find a place to hide, twelve hours earlier I could have just jumped across I couldn’t I was so worn out, so I waded across up the ankle deep, knee deep [unclear] to the other side to get rid of any dog scent now I saw walking up to this park, the corn was growing high now and then oh I hate this bank noise I heard and there came a girl, she must be seventeen, eighteen cycling, she was going to and she had a runny bicycle which had small wheels in the front with a flat tray and she had a milk and she was the one that was and when she passed she said, Guten Morgen, and I thought she spoke to me in English, and I said, you speak English? nein, so I said, RAF, Flieger, and she pointed for me to hide in the corn and she went off back to the farm and I’m hiding in the corn as she was quite high at the time and I heard all the voices come by and eventually I stood up and there was [unclear] the father, he was a little man and along with him was [unclear] and was Jan, the elder son, well, the elder son was probably be about thirteen, fourteen, that was Jan, and then there were three others with him, they were all students, one was Willy [unclear], he was hiding form the Germans because the students were over the age of sixteen were to go to work in the defences so all the students went into hiding and [unclear], he was actually studying medicine at the time and he was in hiding and then there was another [unclear], we called him the painter, he was an artist, we could pick him out in a million, he wore a [unclear] type hat, it was a huge hat and a cloak, he didn’t speak English and I took an dislike him because he spoke to the others who spoke English [unclear] and [unclear] and
BB: Willy
EH: Willy and they laughed and then they asked me, I said, what did he say? He said, he wants to know if you have a gun, no, have you got any cigarettes, don’t smoke. And then it was laughter when this related to the artist or painter, I took an dislike to that chappie because he had said, he hasn’t got a gun, he hasn’t got any cigarettes, he is no bloody good to us, let’s kill him.
BB: I could see you take to dislike him, yeah.
EH: I took an instant dislike to that chappie, I met him once or twice after that, but then he said that they were going to help me so they took me to the farm and there they had the old tin bath hanging on the wall, they had to untie my shoelaces and help me take my clothes off and when my clothes were off of course I’d been circumcised, no reference me to that, far my concern, from the RAF and they were trying to help, well, a few things happened, I would say, I mean, I would say they had a fireplace, a brick thing found underneath water in this and on the top of that was a lid and that’s where they used to put the milk [unclear] once it had been because it had been and taken away but they held in that for a couple of days and then I went in the pigsty and that and then he came up to me one day and this is up to six days that’s the farmer, he came up to me with a bottle, a small bottle of whiskey and sixty gold flake cigarettes 1944 didn’t have the money to buy it, any ideas?
BB: Black market.
EH: SOE.
BB: SOE, oh yes, of course. The escape alliance.
EH: And he was tied to the SOE and was the only way he could have got it but anyway I didn’t drink and I didn’t smoke so I told him he could have them. And then they walked me into they called it the orchard, there was and there were about six beds there, this is where the students [unclear]
BB: Right.
EH: They were hiding, came to sleep and during the daytime they disappeared, look the headmaster of the village school had a spare room and the headmaster go to the library to get the medical books for Luke that continued his study and but I only saw him at night time and at meal times so I’m on my own most of the time but then Naty I come across at one time used to buy the biscuits came in a big tin box, in packets inside that box, and she used to bring one of these different types of grain and my task was to sort out those that were edible for humans and the rest for the animals so I used to sort these out, this she would have to do it cause she, she run that farm, she milked the cow, she did the shopping, and she was the one that had to go to the to get the licences to get the nes free papers for the family because the sons couldn’t go otherwise they were under and [unclear] himself couldn’t go so that, you know, she was the real workhouse I can write a book about her but I can tell you what happened I was there and eventually became when I was to get go to the next place, no whilst I was there I had a haemorrhoids and the doctor to come and he prescribed just a little tablet to insert
BB: Yes
EH: And he wanted something to remember me the only thing I had was a small protector [unclear] to give to him and then on the sixth of June which by chance was to be the date I was to be best man at my wife’s, at that time my girlfriend’s brother who was in the RAF, he was getting married and I was to be best man but [unclear] thought it was my marriage
BB: Right.
EH: But he came up to me and envasi, envasi, I knew the invasion had started
BB: 6th of June, D-Day.
EH: On the 6th of June, yes, so I said to him, whiskey so he went back and we had a little drink, just he and I, had a little drink and then, when I had to leave the farm, decided to take me a photograph, now a business man provided Frans with a suit, is that the photograph?
BB: That’s the photograph of Frans.
EH: Of Frans?
BB: Yeah, yeah.
EH: Yeah, well, the photograph of the dog,
US: [unclear]
EH: So this business man provided me with a suit but said to me, leave here, leave, get away from here or all be killed, they’ll all be killed, they and he give me ten guilders which was no use to me, I couldn’t use anyway but then my conscience risking their lives but they had to make the arrangements or point me in the right direction, true enough they made arrangements and the next place I went to was [unclear] the family Faro, the family Faro, they are all deceased, a woman, she had a son, she ran at a village a shop and to a different people coming in that’s people hiding and moving to the next place, I was then moved from there to, it was a big house and a little Dutchman but he had an American wife she was very tall and I don’t think they were happy to have me hiding in their house I was only there I don’t think forty-eight hours and I don’t think they were happy but he himself said that he flew aircraft in the First World War
BB: Alright.
EH: But then I got the impression this American lady, she was a bit concerned about me staying there, then I moved from there to a farm, it was just a single wooden building and there was an old man wearing clogs he didn’t speak English but his son I did discover was in the Dutch navy and this chappie asked me, you know, could I get him shoes, of course ration back here and he also on the tie of that suit I was wearing, he wrote his son’s name and address, service number so that if I got back to UK we could contact them through the embassy. Unfortunately I must continue now and then from there I was moved again, I lived in Holmegrun, you see, that’s a drawing, it’s a forst, and there was a hole on the ground and they actually made it into a, lined it with straw and then so that the wooden perch with and we were locked in there and at night time they would come give us something to eat and drink and then we would wonder round the woods to attend to mother nature and then come back and were locked and meantime I knew from the underground, four members of my crew had been killed, one had been captured, that was five of us, myself was six, then I was introduce to Derrick, is tappest, tappace place, Moregas I think was the name that, we later went back, Derrick had been hidden inside in this monastery and we were brought together with the underground to see if we were the persons we claimed, he recognised me, I with him, so from then on that accounted for my crew, there were seven now, the sixth man, the eighth man must still be evading capture, that was my hope. And the only man I wanted to hope was the original, Mack was the original wireless operator but he wanted to learn how to operate the H2S so that’s why unfortunately didn’t find discovered after the war was also dead. But then to this the last place in Holland I’ve forgotten the name now but somewhere in the records of my and there I gived them ten guilders that I had, that I couldn’t use into Belgium eventually came along and was a female and came half way and we were told she doesn’t speak English, she doesn’t speak French, for a person living in Belgium, however we were not to try to speak to her but just follow her so I was unhappy because this wasn’t the sort of reception that I had when I was moved to another place I was introduced, I wasn’t even introduced to this person, eventually we, to the bus and sitting on the back of the bus were youngsters, seventeen, eighteen years of age, all dressed the same, I think that they were Hitler Youth movements and they were all sitting at the back of the bus, we the only ones, I think that they were part of the ploy, that we were being betrayed, and they were there to ensure that tried anything funny they would have shot us, I’ve no proof of that, just a feeling, hunch I had, thinks are not going the way they should and I said to the French Canadian, he’s the navigator, he came from Montreal, I asked to speak to her in French but she declined, she didn’t understand, she didn’t understand English, she knew fine well what was happening, I didn’t but Derrick and I were a bit suspicious so we eventually were driven into Antwerp and she got off the bus and we followed but we went together, we just followed so he followed, I think the French Canadian first, then Derrick and then I behind, eventually we take into this large shop, it msut have been a big shop like McEwans, shop or something, but it was a coffeshop high ceilings and everything, lots of people in uniform and three people in civil clothes and there was an empty table with four chairs or fice chairs and we were told to sit down, then a chappie came and sat beside us, the girl we had followed, she produced a piece of paper and he produced a piece of paper, put them together and I knew straight away this is not, this is not right, Derrick knew, he wasn’t happy and the French Canadian, he didn’t pass a word about it, but I felt that there’s something not right, al these people around me, there was a slight hope cause I had been told underground possible at some stage in German uniform and take me down to Switzerland I was hoping that was it.
BB: But it wasn’t.
EH: But eventually this girl got up, they put the two pieces of paper together word or something it was a poor imitation of the real thing however the chap she went off and we were told to follow this chap and we went through a back entrance so this, just let me borrow something
US: There’s a photograph. You’re ok?
EH: This was the shop, you see, the woman here and we were taken through the back road down here and directly opposite was a church and the church was not on level ground, was raised, visible wall around it but raised.
BB: yes.
EH: I didn’t get the name and they went three people standing there and we were introduced to him, this chap that had met us inside and then we were told to get in the car so the three of us got in the back of this car and some girls went by in uniform, I hadn’t seen a female in uniform and I asked that young girl, oh, are those young ladies Germans? No, they were girls that work on the telephone section, they had their own dress.
BB: Uniform.
EH: So we start the car and we start driving on oh I would say about four, five hundred yards and they just pulled into an archway and they are standing outside with two [unclear] and this chap gets out of the car, follow me, we follow, I’m still thinking, oh, they gonna put me in a German uniform and take me into, when he got us inside he turned around, right gentlemen military police.
BB: Luftwaffe police?
EH: That was it. And they separated us and they put me in a room upstairs, I would say, it reminded me of my old school, a big room, high ceiling
BB: Master study.
EH: But aside of that, triple bunk beds and I was posted into a single room, there was one window, I tried to open the window which had been screwed tight, oh, I couldn’t open it, but in any case there was only, there was [unclear] downstairs, a space between the buildings and I could see a drain of pipe running from upstairs on that wall but I couldn’t open the window even trying and I wanted to try and go down but I was so exhausted by this time, I just [unclear] and fell asleep. And I was woken by kicked, of course I jumped up then lying dreaming rifle pushing my teeth.
BB: Were you still in your
EH: Civvy clothes?
BB: Yeah, but did you have your uniform underneath your civvy clothes?
EH: No, just civvy clothes.
US: That’s the suit, my dad was wearing, you can see the double two tails
EH: That dog belonged to the business gentlemen’s
BB: The one you didn’t like.
US: The one who, the business man who gave him the suit
BB: Who gave him the suit, sorry, [unclear]
EH: So, he then took me, stripped me and he took me I was both individually to this and then he turned round, he says, right, who are you, you are a spy. I got my dog tags, he took the dog tags off, he just threw them across the room, and he said, [unclear] my grandmother, I will see with lots of and two dog tags oh I am so and so this, I’m meaningless, said he. So I am now without my dog tags.
BB: Was he Gestapo or Luftwaffe please?
EH: Just something, the German military police, I think he was trying to
BB: Provoke you into something
EH: Well, it wasn’t physical but then he said, you’re a spy, we shoot spies, and then he stripped so I was stripped naked, he saw I was circumcised, he said, ah, you’re a Jew! Oh, we have special treatments for Jews. Note, at that time we didn’t know what was happening in the concentration camps, so we had thought so I could either be shot or there is a special treatment for Jews. And there was a little pressure put on me, asking questions but they are trying to scare you, frighten you and then they pushed me into a separate room, this big room with lots of bunk beds, obviously they were using it as a sort of barracks but there was no, I think it must have been a school or something at one time, but they put me in this room and I put my head out the door, everything was quite at the end of the corridor was a guard, German guard and he had a rifle and he start pushing the [unclear] up and down, Jew, Jew, [mimics a noise] obviously [unclear] from Berlin, we were in a terrible mess and I went back to the window was a chappie, I think he was a blacksmith cause he had a little fire there and I sang, my name is Ernest Holmes, I am RAF, just singing, [unclear] and there was only one occasion when he turned round, he was nodding but I hoped that would be the a blacksmith not a German but I think I got the message through to him that I was there but I didn’t want to be there and then, eventually from there they put us in a truck, it’s a fifteen hundred trucker [unclear] and there’s a gate and we had to go, they closed the wired type of gate so that we were trapped and then sitting outside there was a German with a machine gun and from there they took us into from Antwerp they took us to Brussels and they took us to a place called the castle, that used to be prisoner of war camp, no, used to be a prison, but then the Germans had taken and the three of us were then locked in a room and then you could see quite clearly a microphone and the window like a prison was high and we were given little food, little liquid, and we had biscuits, we can buy them over here, they’re nachabrot, it’s just, that was it, no food, no meat.
BB: How many of you were there at this point? How many people were you at this point?
EH: Three of us in this room. And then we were taken out, I can only speak for myself, I can tell you what happened to Derrick cause we were separated and then I was taken downstairs naked, no, before that the intelligence officer was there and he was dressed in an RAF type uniform but he had buttons with a red, white buttons with a red cross on,
BB: Oh, ok.
EH: He spoke very good English but he was huge. I think I described him as a fat however he [unclear] you know, oh they want to know who you are and I said, I clear my protection to the Geneva Convention, prisoner of war
BB: [unclear]
EH: No, he was quite content to sit and just wanted me to sit and speak, you know, and get frightened cause you know, then he started putting [unclear] oh, you’re a spy, we’ll kill you, Jew special treatment we are building up and when he stripped me and I was taken into the dungeon, when I got into the dungeon there was a German with a machine gun standing and he [unclear] on, what’s the name of the thing that you are standing on? You give, someone is giving a talk,
BB: A [unclear].
US: [unclear]
EH: There, against the wall, was a was this person but dressed as a [unclear], you could smell the newness of the suit, and I thought, no, I’ve seen that shape before but I didn’t want to admit he was the chappie the first as a red cross man you see but this chappie, Jude, Jude, Jude, Jude, and then I was there for some time, five, six minutes, with this harassment coming from this coming and there was this person and I think this is part of the ploy to actually test me to see if I was a Jew, cause he had been dressed in this suit there is no other a Jew in Brussels in 1945
BB: Very rare.
EH: So, I just as I went by, I said, don’t lose faith, don’t lose faith but in such a loud voice, eventually I was taken back and then I was asked to sign a form and this was to be a form that was printed from the red cross, but printed on the top of that form was printed in Berlin, so I knew straight away this is a show trying to get information so eventually we were, Derrick went through the same process, Derrick also had bene circumcised, now I don’t know about the Canadian cause from then on we were separated but eventually he decided that we were prisoners of war and this was after about seven, eight weeks, we were then, we were going to prison of war camp and it was whilst we got in the prison of war camp the escape had taken place on the 23rd of March,
BB: Great escape.
EH: I wasn’t shot down until the 22nd of May. And the prisoners were wearing black armbands they told me the story of what had happened but I was in the same hut, have we got the book?
US: I’ve got it, yes.
EH: There is a little logbook I was given.
BB: Yes, I [unclear]
EH: Now, I had been was given a logbook and the first thing that was in my mind was my crew, there’s lots of just the people
BB: Gosh, yes, go on. [unclear] the shower.
EH: The first thing I did was thinking of my crew, I tried, I was mainly concerned about this eighth men member and I hope that it was Mike, can you find the page David?
US: [unclear] which is the poem?
EH: Yes. One left.
US: Carl wrote a poem expressing his feelings about what had happened
EH: The drawing was on that side, the poem’s on the right.
US: Do you want me to read it out, Dad?
EH: Yes. It was [unclear]
US: [unclear] to sent a photograph of the crucifix
EH: Oh.
US: So, it is in memory of those members of the crew flying Lancaster E for Edward who sacrificed their lives for their country on the 22nd of May 1944, so I will remember, when the sun sets and darkness falls, I will remember, when the sun rises and another day is born I will remember, for remembrance is all that I possess of those I knew so well, those who flew with me into the silent night to fight the foe, they asked not for bloodshed nor did they start the fight, but when they heard the bugle call they jumped to fight for right, after they prepared for missions flying into the sleeping night to bring death and destruction to those who called right might, they did their job right, they did it well but this couldn’t last for on the 23rd of May we fell and became as the past, four aviator missing, these we know are dead, three more accounted for, the eighth man is still ahead, making his way for his own homeland, keep going, my friend, Tommy, Johnny, Mac and Jock have left this earth but we who live will remember, I with Derrick and Ron, from the setting of the sun to the rising of the [unclear] we will think of those who kept up England’s fame, will you and England remember.
BB: Moving. And we do remember and Bomber Command [unclear] a very bad deal at the end of the war
EH: Yeah.
BB: And I blame Churchill for that. Cause Harris, Harris had defied Churchill on a couple of occasions and Mr Dowding had done as well sending more Hurricanes to France and I think he was quite vindictive in that respect occasionally, great man but I think you know he’s human when he’s doing things but I think that Harris and Dowding got a raw deal.
EH: The whole of the RAF got a bad reputation but for what has taken place but if it hadn’t taken place, we would all be speaking German.
BB: exactly.
EH: Ah
BB: I mean, when you listen to contemporary newsreels of that time, particularly after the Blitz, the Blitz on other cities, the populations of those saying, go and give it back to them! Go and give it! And so Harris did exactly that, he was doing what he was bed by the war cabinet and by Churchill and he went and he fulfilled that as best as he could and then it all got [unclear] after the war cause [unclear] so well. But that’s all been, I think, Bomber Command went through that darkness
EH: Yes
BB: And then it came out at the other end and here we are
EH: There is a little gap
BB: That’s what these guys at Lincoln are trying to do
EH: Yes, but there was a little gap, someone [unclear] resentment as I did because a medal was produced that cost fifteen pounds and this was to, and I bought one
BB: This was the Bomber Command memorial, this
EH: No, no, this has nothing to do with Bomber Command,
BB: I beg your pardon.
EH: Someone had produced to say a thank you, to say that we had done a good job
BB: Oh my god, Right, right.
EH: But that was replaced seventy years later with the Bomber Command crest.
BB: Clasp.
US: The bar and the
BB: That didn’t [unclear] till 1945, yeah.
EH: So in a fact, I have, I told you about this medal, it’s now meaningless but that was the resentment that we had and that’s why I bought it
BB: Quite right.
EH: I have it, it’s hidden
BB: [unclear] let down by
EH: The thing
BB: Did you apply for your Bomber Command clasp?
EH: Yes, I have, we have the medal, but the sad thing was, after the war I went to Bomber Command, to Pathfinder headquarters [unclear] give me the choice of either going back at the squadron or going into Transport Command but he warned me, the squadron is preparing to go out to the Far East and being [unclear] tropical [unclear] I said at the time I think I have had my fair share of war, I remember that two forced marches and [unclear] so he arranged to go to Pathfinder, to the
BB: Transport, Transport Command
EH: To [unclear], I’m sorry Bournemouth, I went there with the squadron and who was the CO of the squadron? The squadron leader and Wing Commander Dan [unclear] he sent me on my last op and he was waiting for me coming back from that last op to show me the London Gazette and he gave me my ribbon to put on
BB: Oh, how wonderful.
EH: And he repost me, he said, you are improperly dressed, oh, I don’t know what I had, all I had was the thirty nine forty five, and he, from there he didn’t tell me but he took me with his we sat down and we went through all my operations experience through, I finished up with up with a France Germany medal and also the Italian star and I was wearing them until Kinloss when a group captain Caddy, a Canadian, he was a gentleman, he wanted normal story to, [unclear], the reason he wanted me was there was the coronation and there was seven medals allotted to Kinloss and I was to get one of them, so I had to get my other medals, when I applied for them I discovered I wasn’t entitled to the France Germany medal because I’m in Holland trying to get through, but I wasn’t in France, I wasn’t entitled to it, and also I had done [unclear] to Caen to [unclear], there is a bridgehead to Italy and the railway lines from Caen were feeding that and we went to destroy that railway line in Caen itself and we went down to four thousand feet to bomb and it was in aid of the [unclear] bridgehead
BB: Right
EH: And so I took those down, I had to apologize to the CO I had been wearing this because they told me I wasn’t entitled and he got really annoyed with the and he said, oh, I’ll speak to the OC, we already trained through the Pathfinder force [unclear] you went there so you didn’t get it, so I wasn’t entitled to the France Germany because I hadn’t been stationed in Italy, I couldn’t
BB: But you clearly got the France and Germany clasp, you get the aircrew Europe?
EH: No. No, I haven’t got a France Germany at all.
BB: No, I met sometimes
EH: I got a victory medal
BB: Right, didn’t get the aircrew Europe?
EH: Didn’t get the France because I am in Holland
US: But Dad, listen to the question again. Listen to the question again.
BB: Did you get the aircrew Europe star?
EH: Oh yes,
BB: Cause that would have been where you would have worn the France and Germany clasp on that star, had you been able to
EH: No, I didn’t have the, there was no recognition at all for the France Germany, the, I got the victory medal
BB: I see [unclear] put that right
EH: I actually, the many things that freshen my mind but when I think of my story that I have, can I tell you a little more?
BB: Sure, of course you can.
EH: Frances, Frances von der Heyden,
US: [unclear]
EH: After I left
US: She was Francis daughter
BB: Francis daughter
EH: And she was the girl that found me, she was the workhouse on the farm, she looked after us, she made food for us, and [unclear] for us, for the undertakers and there were six children, she was the elder but let me speaking two separate stories [unclear] after I left, the bridge too far does it ring a bell?
BB: Arnhem. Yes.
EH: Well, the aircraft going passed nearby, near the [unclear] where I was and [unclear] and she comes across an American airman who was wounded on a shoulder ands he made arrangements and she took him in the farm and he was in the pigsty where I had been but then [unclear] by this time the troops were not too far away and [unclear] went across, no, I didn’t see this, I am told by the family, he went across the fields to the British and said he had an American and he wanted help, take him away but they didn’t believe him, they thought that it was a trap and the Germans would be [unclear] of him but they gave him some dressing [unclear] so he went back somehow somewhere the Germans found out he crossed the line and they came to the village and there they found them in the church and they were going to shoot the whole family and France argued, he was master of his house and the family had to do he was [unclear] not them and they shot him in front of them
BB: Yeah, was that ever followed up after the war because if they went in and did all this stuff after the war [unclear]
EH:
US: There is a memorial to Frans
EH: Well, what did happen with I had to be taught but they what happened when I first went back however the family unfortunately went [unclear] dispersal remember was nature and young baby sister I think she is still alive and one of her brothers and that’s left and there’s grandchildren after them [unclear] I’m in contact with and I have been on contact with her family for over seventy years
BB: Oh, that’s wonderful. It’s wonderful. Other Bomber Command aircrew I have interviewed, were they, had they similar experiences to yours, have kept up with their people as well. It’s amazing the bond that existed, you know, there was these young, frightened aircrew, had the horrendous experience of getting out a bomber, landed in a foreign country, had done all the theory about what to do and you know Mi9 teaching them all sorts of things but at the end of the day, you know, they were given help and shelter and food and help you know by the resistance, well the escape line I should say.
EH: But what they did for me is not my story, it’s her story, there was Frans murdered cause he had helped this American, the same thing could have, if I had been there the same thing could have happened to [unclear] but there at one point came when I will switch now from Frans to [unclear], [unclear] was invited to go to America where the some Dutch friends of hers and while she was there, she fell in love with the brother in law of this couple she was staying with and she wanted to get married but she was visiting the States and was not allowed to stay so she in actual fact gave us a [unclear] I should have it somewhere, the second page of the [unclear] Express, and this was where they had approached someone in the government to ask permission and she was told by the senator that if she could prove that she was a fit and worthy person to enter the States, he would try to do what he could for her and she sent me the cutting of the paper where this article was in and I went to my lawyer and explained to him the position and he then [unclear], he actually wrote the letter and she got permission to stay and they got married. But that wasn’t the end of the story because Jan and her brother who was back home he found, he didn’t speak English but he and I, he and I could converse, we understood one another but he, he had an American correspondence [unclear] information so he approached this person and he give them the name and address and the service number of the American that was there and law and behold that American was [unclear] and the family went across, Nat was living in the States, and the family, members of the family, they went there and they actually saw,
BB: Oh, that was good.
EH: Yeah, Jan asked them, [unclear] and make sure so he showed them the wound and he asked, why didn’t you, oh, I thought you were all dead, I thought they shot all, he hadn’t even reported the fact that [unclear]
BB: Yes
EH: So that was a sad tale.
BB: That was a very sad tale, yeah.
EH: Yes.
BB: Well, Ernest, thank you very much
EH: Can I tell you one, just one more?
US: Dad, just two seconds. We are going to have fish and chips for lunch.
BB: Right.
US: I was just going to go and pick them up.
BB: Yes.
US: Would you like to join us? You will join us.
BB: I’d be delighted to, thank you very much indeed. Yeah.
US: I’m going to slip away to get some lunch. Alright?
EH: [unclear] tell the story that I could see it as a [unclear] for a love story [laughs]
BB: Ok, on you go.
EH: [unclear]
US: [unclear] if I leave at this point.
EH: When we were, when we had our last meal, you know, after operations and before operations you go and you have your meal, there was normally sausage, bacon and eggs, well, that night when we sat down, Derrick and I sat together and there was no eggs, and I said to the [unclear], you’ve forgotten the eggs, and she said, Jock he said, [unclear] I can’t go ops without eggs, I got the chop, and she said to me, I’m sorry there’s no eggs and I apologised to her
RH: While we are on the subject of things that crews took with them, good luck charms, whatever you want to call them, my uncle was in 9 Squadron during the war, Australian, he flew from Bardney and did his full trip with 9 and then married my mother’s sister and then he went off to an OTU to instruct staff pilot as an instructor but unfortunately he was killed in a mid-air collision at the OTU, he flew, he flew with apparently, the photograph of my aunt, was later his wife, which he put on the panel of the Lancaster in front of the control column and he swore that got him through every op that he did but that [unclear] did the last one at the OTU [unclear].
US: These are letters that we found that have been written by somebody from [unclear]
BB: Right
US: After the war and we don’t know anything about this person, perhaps Dad will tell you
BB: Okay.
US: I’ll get some lunch.
EH: Can I finish this?
BB: Of course, you can.
EH: I was telling you about this that was on my conscience, when I was hiding that [unclear] that girl
BB: Yes
EH: Was on my mind and I was [unclear]
BB: I can imagine.
EH: [unclear], received the [unclear], I mean I am an emotional person, but by God if anything gets up my nose I just [laughs] however when I went back to see Bennet after the war, he said to me, give me the choice and I said that I’d go back to Holland and he said, right [unclear] go back, go to [unclear] and tell the CO to fly you to Holland but you make your own way back, oh, I accepted that but then when I went onto the squadron I didn’t know a face a part from the navigator I had previously
BB: Right
EH: Gibbs and the [unclear] saw me and he called, don’t move! [unclear]! She’s still here! And he disappeared through the door of the kitchen and he came back with the girl that had served me last meal and the one that I’d said would get the [unclear] and she came right across and the mess
BB: Full
EH: I didn’t know a face other than the [unclear] and my crew member he came across and flung her arms around me and I held her, I [unclear], I apologised for [unclear] and she had seen the [unclear] and she said, oh, I’m glad you’re back and she turned round and tears streaming down her face and they were also mine but I left it to the navigator and the [unclear] to answer any questions about my [unclear] was, there was no physical connection
BB: No, no.
EH: Just that eggs [laughs]
BB: Yeah. That’s interesting. Well, that’s a very interesting story now David passed me this letter, must be to do with someone in the Netherlands, that’s interesting. Anyway thank you for talking to me
EH: No
BB: And it’s a fascinating story and it’s probably the best interview which describes the whole prisoner of war initial interrogation
EH: right. I hope it hasn’t swamped you
BB: Not at all, not at all, because
EH: [unclear]
BB: That’s probably the bit than your Lancaster
EH: Yes, that’s the bit of my Lancaster because after the war we went back this is years later because I’m in Transport Command
BB: Yes, flying your
EH: And then the [unclear] had started but before that we went, [unclear] came with us, and we went, the, Jan, that’s the elder son, now deceased, he had [unclear] with some [unclear], every year the [unclear]
BB: Yeah.
EH: And he had mentioned the fact to these people that he called me Shirley [laughs] and he told his folks that that was, where the aircraft was and we were the undertakers that were alive, Willy and Luc and [unclear] and Jan and they came with us to the farm and the farmer, the farmhouse [unclear] and I couldn’t recognise it, if this is the place, my aircraft came down there and I was in the field here and I came across [unclear] but there was a well here and the farmer said, you are standing on it, the story was lightning put the farm on fire so the farmer had to [unclear] the whole place and [unclear] not just the farm building [unclear] the animals the whole and there was another personal build, I have a photograph of that, we have a photograph of at the farm at [unclear] and we also have photographs of [unclear] got after the war but I had to give everything to David because with my sight gone
BB: Yes, yes
EH: I felt so helpless
BB: I know but I mean, well, fifty-five thousand [unclear] aircrew in Bomber Command didn’t make it
EH: Didn’t make it, no
BB: And the chances of survival of a bomber crew in at the height of the Battle of the Ruhr was four trips
EH: yeah
BB: Four trips
EH: Yeah
BB: So, if you survived four you were already dead.
EH: That’s right
BB: And all the aircrew that I interviewed and tracing my late uncle’s crew as well, who survived the war, they all had mechanisms that distanced themselves from that [unclear] and it was to live for today, everything
EH: [unclear]
BB: Everything was that, don’t think about tomorrow, don’t think about the next op, don’t think about the Grim Reaper, no, it’s just live for today, and they said, they guys that worried about it, were the ones that, you know, that weren’t concentrating, that made a mistake or something and it was just, I don’t know, a luck of the draw, but there was a certain, I perceived a certain mental attitude which got people through,
EH: Well, but after the war I [unclear] because there was only one survivor, Derrick and I, Derrick and I were in contact, but Derrick now is dead and but the chappie who was my wireless operator, her also has died but I got he was interview by a chappie who collected stories from DFCs and DFMs.
BB: Alright.
EH: And he, the same chappie asked me more information and he told, I said ,there was no indication [unclear]
BB: God!
EH: Yeah, seconds
BB: Was it Schrage Musik that got you at the end? You know, the night fighter with the upper firing gun? Below the Lancs?
EH: Yes. You see, I can’t
BB: You can’t answer that because it just so instant
EH: I can’t answer
BB: Yeah, it was just one big matter
EH:
BB: It probably sounds like Schrage Musik because as you know, they went underneath the [unclear]
EH: Yeah
BB: Between the two inner engines, straight in the bomb bay [unclear]
EH: Well, we had two close encounters, but we never had to fire the guns
BB: No
EH: Never
BB: No
EH: So the wireless operator [unclear] had been fighting this [unclear] and the other but there was no guns fired, there was no warning, within thirty seconds the whole lot was over
BB: Yeah. Lucky, you were lucky.
EH: He, no, is dead so I can’t, but I went round to visit the families of them so [unclear] the widow of Johnny Stewart, he was the navigator, he kept a diary and he’d written every time in his diary trips that he went on and he always mentioned my name and his wife asked me who Shirley was, he spent, a lot of people thought my name was Shirley
BB: Yes, yes, yes.
EH: Was Sher-lee
BB: Eee, yeah, and the wife was wondering who Shirley was.
EH: Now then we, this is part of the aircraft, the farmer after the Germans had taken away the aircraft, bits and pieces so David actually took this as a memento
BB: Oh, that
EH: That’s it, I found the aircraft, I’ve been there, and this
BB: You went back to the crash site for the family
EH: Yeah
BB: Not only that, my great grandson, my daughter lives in Belgium and she had a daughter and she was [unclear], Alison was my [unclear].
BB: Gosh!
EH: And but he’s a great guy but he died playing tennis
BB: Heart attack.
EH: He and I got on fine and a lot of people use do think, oh, any with Alison [unclear] but there was no, in fact when he wanted to get married, he wanted to come over to us for my permission, I thought it was pointless in coming just for me to say yes or no.
BB: Yeah.
EH: So I said, don’t bother coming. You come over and have the marriage here and that was all over. So their daughter, so my granddaughter, my grandson and Alison went to the place with, along with one of the grandson of the Van de Hayden family, Hank, this is his name and he’s the one that kept in contact, he is the one who actually took them and they went to the farm and they walked all the way back to where I found, where [unclear] found me but instead of wading across the stream there is a bridge [laughs] and of course there’s no well, is all covered over
BB: All covered over, yeah. How interesting. And of course, you took a permanent commission in the Royal Air Force and you went on to do lots of other things. I mean, flying the routes with Avro York, long haul to Singapore and all sorts of [unclear]
EH: Yeah,
BB: And everything in between
EH: Yes
BB: How did you find the York, cause the York was really a
EH: Well, the armed forces
BB: Basically a Lancaster
EH: The armed force thing was, either the country flying and I’d be away three weeks, back for a few days, come up to Scotland and flew back again, so I couldn’t keep in contact with Derrick, he could go to Holland, I couldn’t
BB: yeah
EH: Cause when I was [unclear], I was [unclear] the CO to take me there, I said, I, eventually you realise that you can’t go empty handed
BB: Yeah [unclear]
EH: You can’t go empty handed, I need money, I didn’t have any money, I don’t think I had my check book with me at the time and we didn’t have cards at that time and I thought, I can’t go across there empty handed so I decided not to go. And then [unclear] Berlin airlift of course, my boss Ben was flying his own aircraft there as a civilian
BB: Yeah.
EH: So I met
BB: Avro Tudor [unclear], is that American Airways [unclear]? No, he started up the South American
EH: That’s right
BB: Airways
EH: That’s right. But then he was
BB: Tudors, Avro Tudors. And Lancastrians and Yorks.
EH: Yeah. He was flying [unclear] petrol
BB: Yeah.
EH: And now, when I visited the other members of the [unclear] I found that the widow of Mack who was the original wireless operator now training on the H2S, he had written a farewell letter to his wife which I gather he wrote every time and kissed this is my last trip, I didn’t know that till his wife told me she was most concerned because he had a baby and there was something wrong with the baby I remember that when we went out as a crew, we, they gave us some little bottles of oil of olive,
BB: Yeah
EH: For the use, for the baby was something wrong but her problem was she didn’t have access to a bank account, it was in his name, she couldn’t get it and I was only visiting there for a short weekend and I couldn’t help her so [unclear] so trying to get the Pathfinder club, he wasn’t even a member, he was in the Pathfinder but he wasn’t a member.
BB: [unclear]
EH: He died so I hope someone did have a [unclear] because Derrick tried to find her living in London, went back, no one in the area knew what had happened to her but the humorous part was that I went to Derrick’s folks, his father was a navigator in the First World War, and he too was shot down, he too became a prisoner of war, now, my story is we were having a dinner with the Pathfinder organisation and now where was the dinner?
BB: RAF club?
EH: No
BB: Pathfinder club?
EH: I, we had, I couldn’t go to the many [unclear] living, I was flying back and forth [unclear] whenever I had time and [unclear] I was with the Pathfinder club in the [unclear]
BB: [unclear]
EH: But with Derrick’s father, there’s a book written by [unclear] Broom.
BB: Oh yeah, Broom. Yeah [unclear]
EH: [unclear] The Battle for Berlin.
BB: The Battle for Berlin.
EH: [unclear]
BB: Alright, I’ll make a note of that [unclear]
EH: And at this time, I was now pilot officer.
BB: Alright. And of course you clocked up seventy hours on Yorks and so the transition to civil aviation was multi-engined experience flying the routes with Transport Command
EH: Yes, but my experience was an actual fact trading fuel, I did a tour with [unclear]
BB: Yes, [unclear]
EH: [unclear]
BB: By the [unclear]
EH: Unfortunately, you see, I held senior appointments but not the rank, I was interviewed by the but I have forgotten [unclear] Scotland [unclear] Scotland at [unclear]
BB: Yes, I used to be at [unclear]
EH: And he, it was a good [unclear], thought I had a raw deal, you know, interview with him
BB: Yeah
EH: But then he said to me, you should just tell the fuckers to stick it up their [unclear] ass, that was the words he used to me, yeah, [unclear] at the time but then I later met him again when I was on Glasgow University [unclear], when I went there the [unclear] was actually using the old typewriters typing things and printing, print out with these
BB: Yes, yeah. [unclear]
EH: And I said, oh, this is nonsense, [unclear] so I want and I got a lot of equipment, I got a camera, projector and also a [unclear] and my esteem went up with the squadron and eventually the OC at the time, I’ve forgotten his name, he came round and I heard wing commander [unclear], not a nice man, he was singing my praise and the OC said to me, [unclear] we are in, and I thought, well, and I think I should have said, Coastal Command. But I said Transport Command cause it [unclear] the end, if I had said Coastal Command and he would have brought precious memories up and that was a third recommendation for me [unclear] so I held senior posts but not the rank.
BB: Yeah, well that was, that’s a shame, no, I went, I started my intelligence work at [unclear] Castle, it was sent HQ NORMA, Northern Maritime Region
EH: Yes.
BB: And I reported directly to the admiral and they received [unclear] the coast of Scotland and Northern Ireland [unclear] and yes, the black huts, the black wooden huts, [unclear] we used to sleep in those and walked down to the pits, down those stairs, yes, it was interesting time, was very busy but ,[unclear] mainly spent hunting Russian submarines in the North Atlantic. With Shackletons initially, the MR 1 Shackleton and then of course [unclear] and so on.
EH: Well, I flew the Shackletons at Kinloss.
BB: Was it ten thousand rivets flying in formation?
EH: When I first came to Kinloss and were only doing coastal cross I was [unclear] at the time.
BB: Yeah, so you were [unclear]
EH: And then I suggested, [file missing] Winston Churchill was coming back on the Queen Mary I think it was from America and I arranged for a flight on Shackleton to go and greet him
BB: Excellent
EH: We got full of praise for that.
BB: Excellent. Yes.
EH: That was the first time the Shackletons had actually flown over [unclear] wartime, was just doing coastal crawls all the time do to the intensive trial period but was an easy aircraft to fly
BB: Yeah
EH: And I flew them, I didn’t fly as captain but I flew the aircraft, take-off, landing and flying around and I did even did practice bomb runs on the Moray Firth
BB: Yeah, yeah.
EH: And well I didn’t do a lot of flying in it but I did fly the Shackleton.
BB: [unclear] it was [unclear] the Lincoln, you know, it went from Lancaster, Lincoln, Shackleton
EH: Yeah
BB: So it was lovely aeroplane.
EH: Oh, Yes. Oh, the Lancaster.
BB: Shackleton, [unclear] Shackleton.
EH: Well I had Mark I, II, Halifax, and the Mark III, now the Mark III was a complete change, it was a [unclear] aircraft, it had sixteen hundred horsepower Hercules engines radials
BB: Yeah.
EH: It was a heavy aircraft, what a difference was from the [unclear] so I got three stitches of [unclear], and then the Lanc, I flew the Lanc, that was a beautiful aircraft to fly.
BB: Did you fly the maritime version as well?
EH: Pardon?
BB: Did you fly the maritime version of the Lancaster as well?
EH: No.
BB: No.
EH: No. No, but I did visit one, there was one in a museum here
BB: Oh, that’s right [unclear]
EH: David was nursing at the time, was training at the time, [unclear] hospital and he heard about it and we went out to visit and there’s a photograph and on that photograph there’s the name Holmes and I reckon it’s a pity they hadn’t put they date on and I reckon as a photograph of an operation, you know, the names were taken off.
BB: Yeah, what a shame.
US2: Can I interrupt? Sorry. We need to [unclear]
BB: Ok, right.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ernest Holmes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-01-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHolmesEA160129
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:37:23 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ernest Holmes joined the RAF and served as a pilot, flying operations first with 76 Squadron and then on Pathfinders. Gives a vivid and detailed account of when he was shot down over Holland: how he was given shelter by a farmer’s family and moved to different locations; his eventful escape to Belgium; his capture and interrogation by the Gestapo and internment in a prisoner of war.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Netherlands
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-06-10
1943
1944-05-21
1945-10-10
10 OTU
35 Squadron
76 Squadron
aircrew
animal
anti-Semitism
bombing
evading
fear
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Abingdon
RAF Kinloss
Resistance
Shackleton
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
the long march
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/874/11114/PHollierM1701.2.jpg
2d2bff42122046751c24c3477c3ffe25
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/874/11114/AHollierM171016.1.mp3
1cffc294b38a22c75f045c3808219b63
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Hollier, Marian
M Hollier
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Marian Hollier (b. 1926, Royal Air Force). She served as a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Wickenby and RAf Ludford Magna.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Hollier, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: Right, I think we’re ok. So, this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mrs. Hollier on the 16th of October 2017. I’ll just put that down there and if I keep looking down, I’m just making sure it’s working. Yeah, we’re ok. Could I just ask you then what were you doing immediately before the war?
MH: I was in, it’s another funny thing, I was in the accounts department of the George Wimpey company who built most of the aerodromes, so of course, I knew everything about aerodromes all over the place but I did belong to the Women’s Junior Air Corps and in there I learnt Morse. And my father was a telegraphist in the First World War, so I suppose the radio bit hereditary, so I decided that I was about coming seventeen and a half I will join the RAF
DK: Did, was Morse something that came easy to you?
MH: Yes, so I, that’s what I joined the RAF, which we were sent to Wilmslow in Cheshire for the six weeks square bashing and injections and what have you and then went to Blackpool for three months on a radio course doing the Morse and then after three months we were sent to Compton Bassett in Wiltshire to finish the course. And from there I went to, oh dear, my mind’s gone
US: Ludford?
MH: Where did I go to first?
US: Ludford
MH: Ludford,
DK: Ludford Magna
MH: Ludford, sorry about that [laughs]
DK: [unclear]
MH: My mind’s gone.
DK: That’s right, we’re [unclear]
MH: But I wasn’t there at Ludford Magna all that long but one did have a scare there one night, I was busy taking a Morse message and my colleagues just dived underneath the benches there oh my god but I had to keep on doing the Morse and so finished and I said, [unclear] what’s wrong with you lot? The Germans had followed our aircraft in and strafed our headquarters.
DK: Oh, right
MH: So that was a bit of a scare
DK: So Ludford Magna then, whereabouts were you [unclear], were you in the control tower there or?
MH: No, no
DK: Right
MH: We had our headquarters in the main building
DK: Ah! Alright, ok. So, what would’ve been your role there? You are sitting there and you’re receiving messages or you’re transmitting them?
MH: Yes, receiving message for aircraft coming in and yes, and they strafed the headquarters, so that was scary and then I suppose I must have been there for about six months or so and I was transferred to Wickenby because Morse was coming to an end then so that wasn’t necessary so they put me into the wireless section, the radio section and that was doing the daily inspections on the Lancasters and that’s where I met my husband and there again we had a scare because the Germans who liked to come in after our aircraft and start bombing but this particular day some chaps said to my husband would you like to change shifts with me? So he said yes, I don’t mind because they used to have to go out, when the aircraft were coming in and going out they used to have a radar van that used to go round the airfield, so this chap said, oh, thanks, anyway the same thing happened, the Germans came in our aircraft and the bomb dump went up and this poor chap was killed, he had changed with Eric for this to go out somewhere, so that was scary.
DK: If I can just take you back to Ludford Magna, did you know anything about the squadron there, 101 Squadron?
MH: Yes
DK: Because they were special squadron, weren’t they, with radio countermeasures?
MH: Yes I don’t think I knew a lot about Ludford Magna
DK: No. They didn’t mention anything about what the squadron was doing
MH: No, no
DK: No. Ok, so, you’ve gone on to Wickenby then and you said that Morse wasn’t being used so much. You’re now transmitting by radio, is that what’s happened? You, at Wickenby
MH: Yes
DK: You are using radio now instead of Morse
MH: No, we’d be doing the daily inspections on the aircraft
DK: Ah, right, ok, right. So what would that involve then?
MH: Go onto the aircraft and testing the headphones and all the radio equipment, was it, 1154, 1155, I think they were [laughs] and
DK: So
MH: But of course, I wasn’t trained to do that so I only did menial jobs on the aircraft
DK: And that would be after the raid
MH: Yes
DK: Would these be the following morning, so you’d go out to the aircraft and then
MH: Yes, and do an inspection on them before they went off again, but I mean, they used to come in and go out and sometimes there was no chance that you could do an inspection on them
DK: And then so, what did the inspection sort of involve then? Did you take the radios out or are you inspecting?
MH: Yeah, just to see if they were working alright
DK: Yeah
MH: That sort of thing
DK: Yeah. And how long were you at Wickenby for then?
MH: From forty, I did write it down somewhere, can’t remember what I’ve done with it,
DK: [unclear]
MH: Don’t think that’s in there, I was there from about March ’44 until about September ’45 and then I got sent to Sturgate on 50 and 61 Squadron and that was just in looking after headsets and that sort of thing, nobody was interested in doing anything at the end of the war [laughs] and then, have you ever heard of Ralph Reader?
DK: I haven’t, no, no
MH: Well, he did gang shows for the forces and then at the end of the war he decided he would do a gang show involving all the people who were involved in the war, all the services, the fire people, the police, everything and it was going to be held in Royal Albert Hall and they were asking for people who lived near London if they would like to come and do it and so that we could work in the week and at weekends we could go home and that’s what happened with many because I lived in Middlesex
DK: Right
MH: So, and then we were based at Epping during the week and that went on for about three weeks so that was something interesting after the war and a lot of people don’t remember
DK: No
MH: Because if you weren’t involved you wouldn’t remember. And then I got sent to RAF [unclear] at Eastcote in Middlesex which was near my home, so we got billeted out and a friend of mine that I was at Wickenby with, she got sent to Eastcote and we were allowed to go home to my mother and father at the week, every week and they, we got billeted there
DK: Yeah. So how long were you in the Air Force for altogether?
MH: From beginning of February 1944 until November 1946, because I got married 194, September 1946, so I had to come out anyway
DK: You had to come out with, if you got married, did you?
MH: But I did enjoy my life in the RAF
DK: Just going back a little bit, you mentioned a bit earlier about the ground crew, did you see much of what the groundcrew did on, at Wickenby?
MH: No, not really, because you just stayed in your own section.
DK: Ah, right
MH: But, one thing is when I was at Wickenby, somebody came up and said to me, you’ve got to see one of the officers, so I said, what for? No, I can’t tell you, she says, you’ve gotta come with me, so I got to this office and said, [unclear] the officer, and he says, I understand your name is Taunt, T-A-U-N-T, so I said, yes, that’s right, it turned out he was a long distant cousin of mine. No, I didn’t know him, I didn’t know him at all and they owned the red bus company in Birmingham and his wife bred Bedlington terriers [laughs], that was funny. But a lot didn’t happen to me, not [unclear] exciting, did some exciting things [laughs]
DK: So what did it feel like then when you used to see the aircraft going off on the raids? How did that?
MH: Well, we all, if we were on duty we would be out there watching everything,
DK: You were, yes
MH: Yes, yes
DK: So can you recall what actually happened then as you watched the aircraft take off?
MH: No, not really, just hoping they would all come back.
DK: Did you use to wave to them?
MH: Yes, yes, yes, but when we went on this trip to Canberra, I got talking to two gentlemen there and they were looking at this aircraft so I said, you are looking very lovingly at that aircraft, yes, he said, we were on this squadron during the war, I said, oh yes, were you? Whereabouts? Oh, you wouldn’t know whereabouts, so I said, well, try me, so he said, well, we were in a place called Lincolnshire, I said, oh yes, and whereabouts in Lincolnshire? Oh, he says, that’s no good, we were only in a village, so I said, well, tell me the name of the village then, he said, Wickenby. And he was there in ’45 when I was there
DK: Yeah, And they were Australians, were they?
MH: They were Australians, yes
DK: Oh, right
MH: And he wrote a book of poems, his name is Jeff Magee and he wrote a book of poems and he sent us a book of poems and every year when we used to go back to Australia we used to meet up with him but he’s gone now
DK: Do you, can you recall what type of aircrew he was? Was he a pilot or?
MH: Oh, he was a pilot
DK: He was a pilot, yeah
MH: Yes, yes and his friend was a gunner
DK: Right
MH: And they both survived but it was amazing to go twelve thousand miles
DK: And bump into
MH: And to meet up with these two people
DK: You didn’t remember each other from Wickenby then?
MH: Sorry?
DK: You didn’t remember each other from Wickenby?
MH: Oh no, no, no, but it was funny that all this business of this chat, chat, chat to think that we were at Wickenby at the same time during the war or after the war I should say
DK: So were you actually with 626 Squadron or
MH: With 626 and 12
DK: And 12, alright, ok
MH: Yes, yes, we did both squadrons,
DK: Right
MH: The radio school did both then
DK: So the radio school there wasn’t allocated to one or either of the squadrons
MH: No
DK: You just did both squadrons on the base, yeah
MH: Both, yes
DK: So what was it like living on the base there, did you have much of a social life?
US: [unclear]
MH: I didn’t
US: I think you did, [unclear] the story you told me, I think you did
MH: [laughs] we
DK: [unclear]
MH: No, one thing that we did have was the Americans, they were, they [unclear] Scunthorpe
DK: Right
MH: And they used to send a truck down to take the WAAFs for dances
DK: Right
MH: But I didn’t go on one of them, no, I didn’t like Americans [laughs], my son-in-law is American
DK: Oh right
MH: No, they were up to no good [laughs]
DK: So did you manage to, apart from the Americans, did you manage to get off the base at all? Did you go to the pubs?
MH: Oh yes, I took my bicycle with me all over the place and it’s amazing now to think that from Wickenby or Ludford Magna to Louth was, is a long way but we used to cycle and then, when we had time off, when I was at Compton Basset, I lived, my grandmother lived in Berkshire, which is not all that far from Compton Bassett, with my mother’s home is round there, so I used to skive off and one day I did skive off and I left my bed, cause we used to have to make our bed everyday but this day I left the bed and put that bolster in the bed and skived off overnight and I got caught [laughs] and spent some days peeling potatoes in the canteen [laughs]
DK: So how, when you are on the base then and the aircraft have all gone off on their operations, did you wait for them to come back?
MH: Well, only if we are on duty because at Wickenby the WAAF section was on one side of the airfield
DK: Right
MH: So unless we were on duty, no
DK: So, the WAAF section then was quite someway
MH: Yes
DK: From the rest of the base?
MH: Yes
DK: Right
MH: Yes, cause when we see it now, you know the road that we come in, that right-hand side was where all the WAAF was
DK: Alright. That’s at Wickenby is that as you got to the control tower
MH: Yes
DK: So, you were on the right on the road there
MH: Yes, yesh
DK: Right. So how, when you did see them come back how did you feel about them as they all came back damaged aircraft and things?
MH: A bit tearful you’ve, because they, in the section we had a list of the aircraft that were going out and coming back and some of them didn’t come back, didn’t know what happened to them, dreadful. Their choice, flying
DK: So, how did you feel once it was all over then and the war came to an end?
MH: Elated, glad it was over. We, my husband and I, when he was my husband then, we skived off, got a train to Grantham, and cleared off home and came back a week later but we didn’t get any jankers for that [laughs]
DK: So there was a bit of a celebration then, was it, for the end of the war?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: Yeah. And how do you look back on your time now [unclear]?
MH: I loved it, yes, I loved being in the Air Force,
DK: And was that your main role then, just the radios?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And can you still do the Morse now, if you [unclear]?
MH: I could do it, that’s where my Morse key that I had when I was at Ludford Magna is there
DK: Oh right, right
MH: And they hadn’t got one
DK: And it’s on display now
MH: It’s on display, yes, yes
DK: And you say you received messages then you would
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And what sort of messages were they?
MH: They were all in code
DK: Right, alright, ok
MH: Yes, but we didn’t do the code, we had to pass that on for somebody else to do
DK: So you wouldn’t really know what the message was
MH: No
DK: Right, ok, so
MH: When it was in code
DK: So it’s in code and then it’s deciphered elsewhere
MH: Yes
DK: Right. And if you transmit to them, was that in code as well?
MH: That in code
DK: So you pass the code
MH: Yes
DK: So the message you are sending out, you also [unclear]
MH: Yes, you wouldn’t know what the code was, no, no
DK: Did you sort of [unclear] that and wonder what you were saying or?
MH: No, I was young, wasn’t I? Seventeen and eighteen [laughs]
DK: So, once the Morse finished then, you were transmitting by radio? Presumably that wasn’t in code then
MH: Say that again
DK: Once Morse had finished, you said radios came in, you weren’t speaking in code then
MH: It was all in code, didn’t have anything in plain language
DK: Oh
MH: I didn’t
DK: Right
MH: No,
DK: Ok
MH: I liked the Morse code. When I came out and we moved to Horsham in West Sussex, I joined the Air Training Corps
DK: Right
MH: And taught them Morse, that happened for a little while, why I don’t know
DK: It’s not used very much now, is it? It’s not used today.
MH: No, well, they had what they called Morse lip reading and then, oh, what else did they have? There is the same as the aircraft, they change as well because they had a blister under the aircraft radar, and my husband one of the first people to go on a course for that
DK: H2S
MH: Yes, that radar
DK: Yeah, H2S
MH: At Yatesbury
DK: Right. So, he was, he worked on the radar [unclear]
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
MH: Yes, yes
DK: OK, well, I’m happy with that if you’re ok
MH: Not very interesting.
DK: It’s very interesting, if you ask me. You’ve got a photo here. Right, this is
MH: That’s Wickenby
DK: Right, this is just for the recording then, so
MH: That is a, on the back of this, that’s the radio section
DK: Alright. So, just for the recording here, we’ve got a picture of a Lancaster with
MH: Yes
DK: Are you in this?
MH: Somewhere [laughs], I think I’ve circled where my husband and I are [laughs]
DK: Oh, ok. So this is the signal station at RAF Wickenby, June 1945. So, assuming that sort of something taken for the end of the war, was it, a sort of souvenir?
MH: Well, I suppose so
DK: Yeah
MH: I can’t remember.
DK: So, it’s got the names of everybody on here, can’t see your circle
MH: So, how old’s your dad then?
DK: Oh, he’s ninety next year, be ninety next year
MH: A bit younger than me [laughs]
DK: Yeah. He would’ve, as I say, he would’ve caught the very last year of the war [unclear] he was called up
MH: Yes
DK: He was nineteen then, as I say, failed his medical to get in the Navy and ended up in the factories. I can’t see you here, see if you can point yourself out. Ah, right, ok, so you’re third one in from the left, front row. Ah!
MH: [laughs]
DK: Oh! That’s a wonderful photo there.
MH: What a change! Thank you
DK: So, just for the recording then, I got two photos here, that’s [unclear] good so and this is your husband
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah, and what was his name? What was his?
MH: Eric
DK: Eric, Eric. Yeah. So he was signals as well then. Yeah. Just for the recording here, I say, it’s a photo of a Lancaster from the signal section RAF Wickenby June 1945 and the aircraft is coded PH0, PHO, that’s for 12 Squadron and is that the squadron leaves the field? Is that the squadron right at the bottom there?
MH: Oh, that’s the, oh no, that’s the, that’s on the badge
DK: The crest, on the crest, so that’s the 4 Squadron crest
MH: I have been down to Brookwell, that’s where my mother’s home is, I’ve been down to Brize Norton and taken over the airfield by one of the workers there and had coffee in the officer’s mess
DK: Cause 101 squadron is still going, isn’t it?
MH: Yes, yes, yes, that’ll be, that’s a hundred years
DK: Yeah, I’m not too sure about 12 Squadron though, I don’t think, is 12 Squadron still going, do you know?
MH: No, 12 Squadron is, no, only 101
DK: Nor 626 either
MH: Uh, no
DK: No, no
MH: But I noticed that 61 Squadron was mentioned the other day. I can’t remember in connection with what. Because I thought to myself, oh, I was on 61, oh, something to do with that body that they found somewhere
DK: In Holland
MH: The aircraft that got lost
DK: Yeah
MH: That was 61 Squadron
DK: That was a wreck in Holland, wasn’t it?
MH: Yes
DK: Yes
MH: That was where I was in Sturgate was on 61 Squadron
DK: Right, alright. Cause I think they found the remains of one of the crew, don’t they?
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
MH: Yes, yes, I think it was the pilot cause he’d told all the others to jump out, didn’t he, and he didn’t.
DK: Right, right, yeah. Ok, let’s, let’s stop that there. I’ll ask the question again. Did you ever get to fly in a Lancaster?
MH: No, I didn’t [laughs]
DK: And there was a reason for that. What’s the reason?
MH: Yes, uhm
DK: You did flights to Germany?
MH: Yes, they were sending flights over Germany and I said to my husband who was my boyfriend then, I’m going on one of those, he says, if you go on one of those, I won’t marry you [laughs], so I didn’t go on one. And we were married for fifty-eight years [laughs]
DK: Did he go on one of those trips?
MH: No, I didn’t, no
DK: He didn’t either
MH: No
DK: No
MH: No [laughs]. When, going back to Brize Norton, an uncle of mine was at Brize during the war when they had the Wellingtons pulling the Horsa Gliders
DK: Oh right
MH: And apparently, they had to hold onto the back end of the glider before it took off and he held on and he fell and got killed and that was at Brize Norton.
DK: Right. Yeah. So, have you had many family members that have been in the RAF?
MH: No
DK: Right
MH: Only me.
DK: Right.
MH: My brother went into the navy, my father was in the army
DK: You mentioned your son-in-law, is it, he’s at Coningsby?
MH: My son-in-law
DK: Yeah, alright, ok
MH: With his husband
DK: Right, and he was at RAF at Coningsby?
US: No, he was in the United States Air Force
DK: Oh!
US: He served in, during the Vietnam war
DK Oh my!
US: He was in, think he was in Laos
MH: He gets teased. If anything goes wrong, he says, I’ll stay in America again, he doesn’t mind [laughs]
DK: So, what did he do in the US Air Force?
US: He was on, as far as I know, cause he doesn’t talk about it a great deal, he was on the helicopters, in the back end of the helicopters with a machine gun
DK: Oh right!
US: To, cause they used to go and pick up the downed pilots.
DK: Right
US: And he was one of the people that, you know, was protecting the people that were
DK: Going and pick’em up
US: Going to pick’em up
DK: Oh right, cause someone I know, I’ve never met him, but he’s the son of somebody who fought in, who served in RAF Bomber Command, who was a pilot but he has since gone back to America, lived there and he served in Vietnam on the helicopters doing a very similar job. Yeah. So where did you meet him then?
US: RAF Bentwaters
DK: Right. So you were
US: I was civil servant, yes.
DK: Right
US: And he was still serving time, I mean he was, he was actually military place
DK: Right. Spent time in Vietnam, interesting
US: Well, I think again, it was a case of joining the Air Force before he was
DK: Drafted in, yeah
US: Before he was drafted
DK: Drafted into the army, yeah. Ah, well, right, just for the recording again, there’s this lovely photo of your wedding
MH: Honeymoon paid for by the RAF in the Isle of Wight [laughs]
DK: Ah, that’s very nice, I’ve just come back from the Isle of Wight funnily enough, I was [unclear]
MH: Freshwater [laughs]
DK: Freshwater, yes, we went there. Very handsome chap. I like the way the flairs are in color
MH: Yes, you didn’t get things in color in those days
DK: No, no
MH: They all had to be hand done afterwards
DK: Lovely photo. And did your husband stay in the RAF?
MH: No
DK: Alright
MH: He wanted to
DK: Alright
MH: He was an architect, but I said no, I didn’t want my children to be sent to boarding school in this sort of and keep on moving here, there and everywhere so he went back and then got his degree in architecture
DK: Ah right. Did he tell you much about what he was doing cause you mentioned he was working on the radar?
MH: No
DK: Alright, so he never really talked about that
MH: No, he wasn’t very talkative about other things, was he?
DK: Alright.
MH: He would be a good friend, cause he wouldn’t tell anyone anything [laughs]
DK: But you knew he was working on the H2S radar then, yeah
US: His wing
MH: was part of the section
DK: Right, yeah, yeah
US: We were talking to a lady cause my mother got invited to one of the memorial flight
DK: Right
US: And we were talking to the curator there and she said, you know, how interesting it is talking to people after the war, how some people are quite happy to talk about it and it doesn’t bother them and other people just
DK: Just don’t
US: Just don’t want to
DK: We’ve actually found that this was part of this project there’s a lot of people now who obviously, you know, got to a great age are only now talking about it so when you ask about how many, you know, are still surviving, a lot of these people haven’t mentioned it but we identify them and then for the first time they are talking about what happened, you know, for understandable reasons they haven’t spoken about it before. Sometimes the families haven’t been interested and sometimes they just obviously found it too difficult to talk about and you know, it’s sad and understandable but you know hopefully now we are capturing some of those stories before it’s, you know obviously it’s too late. Cause some people say, well, why didn’t you start this project twenty years ago when the memories were fresher? And perhaps we should’ve done and [unclear] we would’ve done but they didn’t want to talk about it twenty years ago
MH: I’ve still got my father’s diary that he went into the army in 1916, was eighteen in 1916, and I’ve still got his diary written in pencil and still readable
DK: Yeah
MH: Of his time in the army and I’m just wondering whether records in any of the Army things might cause that’s no good to me, nobody wants them
DK: Yeah, it might, you can’t, does it mention which regiment he was with? Because there’s regimental museums, they might be interested probably
MH: Yes, oh right, I think I didn’t give it, I gave you something, didn’t I?
US: I’ve got a few bits and pieces of [unclear]
MH: I think I’ve got a
DK: Because there’s
MH: A little disk upstairs somewhere
DK: Because there’s similar projects to the Bomber Command one where if there is research into this particular regiment like us they might want to copy it, you keep the original document but they, cause now you don’t really need to hand over the original document, they just make a copy of it electronically and the family gets to keep the documents, so it might be worth looking into
MH: It’s very interesting reading and exactly as you see in these pictures with all the margin, he had, a bullet went in his neck and he lived until he was seventy-nine, but he had mustard gas
DK: My grandfather on my mother’s side, he was gassed in the First World War, he lived to be ninety-nine but he was, I think it was phosgene gas that he was wounded and he collapsed and had a label on him and he said, oh, you’ve got a blighty wound, you know, you’re going home and then my grandfather on my father’s side as well and his brother so my great grand uncles all fought in the Western Front
MH: I like hearing about people’s experiences during the war because I’ve got a friend that lives on the estate, he’s coming up ninety-three, and he was in the Red Berets
DK: Alright, yeah
MH: What are they called?
DK: The commandos
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah, yeah
MH: Yes, and he can tell me a few stories
DK: Ah, right. But once again, there might be a project where his stories are being captured, cause I know old history’s now is really a big thing really
MH: And I keep meaning to try and go to Ypres because an uncle of mine got killed in the first week of the First World War and a couple of years ago friends that live at Brize Norton they found his grave
DK: Ah, right
MH: And but I haven’t managed to get there
DK: Hopefully, you’ll get to see it
MH: So
US: Did you, did you have any Polish people on your squadron?
MH: Can’t hear you
US: Did you have any Polish people on your squadrons?
MH: Yes, no, no
DK: Oh, right, ok
MH: Oh no, not allowed, at Faldingworth, have you heard of Faldingworth?
DK: Yes, yes, yeah
MH: That was part of the number 1 Group at Faldingworth and when I got transferred from Ludford Magna to Wickenby which isn’t that far, we stopped at Faldingworth so they said you gotta stay in the van, what do you mean I gotta stay in the van? WAAF are not allowed to get out on a Polish squadron
DK: Really?
MH: The men are always after them [laughs], but you could always get lipstick and nylons and this sort of thing
DK: From the Polish
MH: And silk stockings and, yes, we swear that they used to land somewhere and pick these things up [laughs]
DK: So you have no idea where they got this stuff from then? You’ve got no idea where the Polish were getting the nylon from?
MH: No, no, no, no
DK: So you never actually met any Poles then, no?
MH: But they were always very nice [laughs]
DK: Yeah
MH: But you weren’t allowed out of the van [laughs]. But I don’t know whether there were any women on that squadron at Faldingworth, I didn’t know much about it but I know it was all Polish fliers there
DK: Yeah. So, when you were allocated to a squadron or a base, you really kept within that, did you, you didn’t really mix with people from other squadrons
MH: Well, I think so, I did because it was still Lincolnshire when I went to Gainsborough
DK: Right
MH: To Sturgate so I just stayed in and of course they used to, when you went from, you finished your course and they said, where do you want to go? Everybody put near home, well, you never ever got near home it was miles away [laughs] cause I was in Middlesex
DK: Did you manage to get home much though while you
MH: No,
DK: Served, no
MH; No, no
DK: So, you weren’t granted leave for the weekend or
MH: No, not very often, might get seven days now and again, and you would get days off, but you would just stay locally, well unless you were like me and skived down to my relatives [laughs]
DK: Ok, well, I’ll stop that there but thanks very much for your time. Put that back on again, the radiation cells, so they were all
MH: They were valves
DK: Right. So, was part
MH: Nothing electric
DK: So, was part of your role then changing the valves?
MH: Yes, yes and on the aircraft it was the same
DK: Alright. And this might sound an odd question, but did you take the whole radios out? You had to pull them out presumably.
MH: It could’ve done but I didn’t because they were too heavy
DK: Right. Right
MH: But there will be a receiver, what’s the other thing?
DK: Transmitter
US: Transmitter
DK: Yeah. And then all the valves that you had, did you use to change the valves?
MH: Yes, yes
DK: And could you tell if the valves needed changing?
MH: Can’t remember, long time ago [laughs]
DK: But it was good technology because it worked
MH: Yes
DK: Yeah
US: I mean, my dad used to build his own radios, didn’t he? Papi used to build his own radios after the war
MH: Yes
DK: Yes, yeah
US: Locked in boxes
MH: He really wanted to stay in, no, I wasn’t going to have my children taken away from me [laughs], go to boarding school
DK: It’s understandable. Ok
Dublin Core
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Interview with Marian Hollier
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David Kavanagh
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2017-10-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHollierM171016, PHollierM1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:38:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Description
An account of the resource
Marion Hollier served as a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force from February 1944 to September 1946. Before the war she worked in a construction firm, The George Wimpey Company, which built aerodromes. She learned the Morse code in the Women’s Junior Air Corps. Tells of her father who served as a telegraphist in the First World War. Later on, she joined the Air Training Corps. She was trained at RAF Wilmslow, then Blackpool on the Morse code, before moving to RAF Ludford Magna, with 101 Squadron, and from there to RAF Wickenby with 626 and 12 Squadron. At RAF Wickenby her duties included radio transmitting and carrying out inspections on aircraft. While she was stationed at RAF Ludford Magna, she witnessed enemy aircraft strafing headquarters.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945-06
101 Squadron
12 Squadron
626 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
ground personnel
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Faldingworth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Wickenby
training
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/870/11111/AHextellGJE160104.2.mp3
37d80c475d2be9fba2485ea100ad6789
Dublin Core
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Title
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Hextell, George
George Joseph Edwin Hextell
G J E Hextell
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer George Hextell (1141319 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 51 Squadron and became a prisoner of war.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hextell, GJE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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GH: Yes well, I’m [unclear] Hextell, Hextell, I was a WO, my number 1141319.
MJ: So, how did you manage to get into the RAF then?
GH: How did I manage to get into this? Well, as I say, I was conscription, in 1940, all called up, all the people, the young people, and then I was [unclear] going to be dragged into the army, I thought when I got into the RAF I couldn’t be a pilot, cause I thought, I haven’t got the education for that, I going underground staff cause I worked in a factory, Morris motors, in Birmingham and I went into Birmingham and signed up one Saturday lunchtime, I hadn’t finished my job, and I wanted to know what happened to me cause I was called up after two or three days and posted to Warrington Padgate RAF training station where I did my square bashing and all that stuff and as I say, I hadn’t packed my job and eventually my mother had to get into the factory and tell the bastards I had joined, what did he do that for? They said, you know, there was a job here for him, if he wants it, I thought, no, so I trained as a flight mechanic, cause I was interested in wheels [unclear] and cars and engines and I went to after about three or four months at Padgate I was posted to number 5 school of technical training at Locking in Somerset and I went on a course on engines and aircraft there, you know, and I was there till end of 1941 and I passed out after that was posted to Scotland, Castletown, right up in the north of Scotland, you could almost see Norway, from where we were but we were only there about two or three weeks and [unclear] library, not doing much, any odd jobs and then we were eventually posted, as I say, to number 5 school of technical training Somerset, big long train ride down from up in Scotland and, I was there till the end of 1941 as I say when I got posted to Scotland and all I did, I worked and see all these different engines and aircraft, you know, worked on the Merlin engine, you know, and when I’d finished that they sent me to a maintenance echelon in Kent, [unclear] End, I worked on the maintenance echelon, squadrons came and went but I, we’re always permanent there like, you know, and Spitfires and all I could remember during there the Battle of Dieppe, when they landed in Dieppe in 1942, that was in September, that was disastrous, I remember that morning and I got up early, about five o’clock as something was on but nobody, oh, the second front started but that’s what it was, it turned out to be, Dieppe and they after the German [unclear] headquarters at Lorient and of course a lot of casualties, a lot of Canadian soldiers took part, a lot got killed, lot got captured and [unclear] after that we went to, so Dieppe, we just servicing the Spitfires that’s all, I was an engineman and we just served the Merlin engine up you know and it was good but, stop there for [unclear]. Well it was [unclear] at Gravesend but one day the engineer officer called us all in and wanted to know who wanted volunteer as flight engineers on the four engine aircraft that were coming into service, the Lanc, Halifax and the Stirling and of course there was three of us there, I put me name down for it, and I said, oh I can’t do any [unclear] but I was the only one who passed the medical, we had to go up to Euston House in London, aircrew candidate selection board and they explained to us all about how to fly, you know, [unclear] up and dark nights and flying over the oceans and that, you know and [unclear] and all this kind of thing you know but I went through with it and I was sent to St Athans in South Wales near [unclear], Cardiff and I did a course there and these four engine bombers would come in and they what they wanted to know was, there was a great big crowd of us volunteered and all the chaps going in for the Lancaster, you know, cause it got a famous name but and the squadron leader, I remember, he got us all lined up in the hangar, a big long queue of us and he said to stop any argument about who wants to go on, which was the best aircraft. He divided us up into three and he said that’s it, Stirlings, Halifaxes, Lancasters. Well, I got the Halifax, I went into the Halifax, and that’s how I came to be trained, trained at St Athans. And that’s a while I was posted to Marston Moor into Yorkshire and that was a conversion unit, number ten conversion unit and where pilots and aircrew met up and cause you see the crew I got in eventually had been flying on Whitleys then at St Eval in Cornwall on Coastal Command but they all stuck together and of course I was coming up [unclear] a conversion unit so it was there I turned up with them and became the flight engineer and of course there was seven of us in the crew, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, rear gunner, mid upper gunner and all like that and that’s how I came to be with 51 Squadron. But it was only [unclear] I don’t know what they’d done before but, quite a bit before we went on our operations but the first operation we went on was mine laying off the Dutch coast, dropping mines in the sea and we used to have a naval officer explaining how important it was just [unclear] dropping it in the right place and the right height and all this kind of thing, that was the first flight I flew but of course I did many, we did many hours [unclear] circuit and bombs training, I mean the pilot was, all the crew was getting trained and I was getting trained as well in [unclear] that’s how I came to be with them but as I say the 51 squadron was only like just four men, and there was not many before, you see, you know a lot of names but I didn’t know many because I wasn’t there that long and I went there in the end of January ’43 and we went on, I went on two bombing raids with a crew, with our crew to Lorient in France and one night I went with my own crew and another time I stood in for somebody who was absent for another crew, they’re all officers, pilots, navigators, they was all officers, and I flew with them and I remember the first night we went on, we got back at about three o’clock in the morning and we couldn’t get back to our [unclear] I was stationed at Snaith in Yorkshire, East Yorkshire and couldn’t get back on our own drome so we had to land at Stowe-in-the-Wold in Gloucestershire and everybody, I think it was the first time I’ve seen these giant four engine bombers, you know, and all the people came out and looked at it, they were a big aircraft it was and after that I came to be [unclear] but as I say we did two operations in Lorient but that’s all I did and I just saw the operation mine laying, two to Lorient and on the fourth operation we did on Dusseldorf on the 27th of January ‘43 and I thought, oh, blimey, that’s done it, cause the briefing officer told us it was a heavily defended area, well we knew that because of all the Ruhr and all the places around there, Essen and all those places, I mean, it’s taken a heavy toll of our aircraft but of course it, well, it didn’t bother me and you know, but I thought we’ll get through it alright. But we were shot down over Holland, got over the North Sea alright into Holland, never heard a word, everything quiet and then next thing, I was sitting, I was standing in the middle of the fuselage, putting a flare in a flare shoot for taking photos with the cameras, you know, when the bombs dropped and whilst I stood there all of a sudden on the starboard side, right that at [unclear] machine gun bullets you know [mimics machine gun fire] couldn’t believe it, you know, couldn’t understand it, [unclear] one side or the other, he caught the port engine which controls all the hydraulics and pumps and that and the aircraft and I thought, oh, that was, looking into the astrodome it caught fire, the wing caught fire and I was horrified and the pilot was trying to save it but the aircraft you know dodged about and that but we were going down and we were all rushing, putting our parachutes on and the next thing I knew was I was flying through the air and the second pilot was a New Zealander, he explained it he could he’s written a little book about from where he came from in New Zealand who landed off, and as we were blown out, I was blown out, there was three of us out of the seven and three escaped, the New Zealander, our wireless operator and myself, the other four chaps got killed, pilot, navigator, the bomb aimer and rear gunner. I’ve never heard a word from them at all. And it was in Mill in Holland, place called Mill and it was five past six took off and from up in Yorkshire, ten past eight I was in a prison cell in Holland. Germans wanted to know, you know, why come bombing our women and children, and all I said, well, for the simple reason that you are coming and bombing our women and children and then of course they [unclear] interrogated me and I was there about a week I think and we went to the Dulag Luft interrogation centre and were there a while. Then they sent us to Amsterdam in a big prison, a big prison or whatever it was, big [unclear] and we were locked up in solitary confinement and had a lot of questions asked, you know, and were there about a week and one Sunday they transferred us from Amsterdam onto a train to take us to in [unclear] was Stalag VIII-B but they renamed it later Stalag 344 because Sagan, the Stalag Luft 3 where the air, the air people, where the aircrew prisoners went, they were full, the two, to many, so I had to go to a Stalag but this was at Lamsdorf in Upper Silesia near the Polish border, what’s the name? [unclear] I think or something like that and that was where I ended up but I know the night we flew, we had a brand new aircraft, it had only come from the manufacturers the day before but it hadn’t got a mid-upper turret [unclear] you got [unclear] hadn’t got a mid-upper turret on this particular one, the wing commander said it will give you more speed and all the rest of it you know and [unclear] he didn’t need a mid-upper gunner, so Taffy Jones, our mid-upper gunner he didn’t fly with us that night, he got away with it but as I say, I mentioned a second pilot, but I forgot to mention that before we took off at six o’clock at night from Snaith and staff come up and the group captain came up with this chap and he was a New Zealander, Jack Cardey and he said, I want this chap to fly with you tonight, he said, it’ll give him a bit of experience and that was the first time we met him and he got on board and that was his experience, he became a POW, and I’ve heard from him once or twice but not lately but yes, that’s how I came to be in Poland. Yes, capacity of the Halifax I think it was eleven hundred and ninty gallons but the first flight engineer, the idea was to run the engines as quickly as possible, to have the throttles open all the time, you know, to give, put [unclear] and get the engines to performing properly and another thing before take-off you were testing your engines before one by one and ramp them up to about three thousand ribs [unclear] a minute and then switch one of the magnetos off, there’d be a drop of one of the rears, I think, what was it so many percent, five percent was it, you were allowed if you that went below that [unclear] was faulty, yes, all the four engines [unclear] two magneto on each side of the Merlin was a marvellous engine [unclear] this is a backdrop somewhere ok, ok for take-off. Yes, it was quite an experience but we got through it alright and as I say with Jack Cardey, second pilot who flew with us, he didn’t act as a pilot, as I say, he was only a passenger, he was more than a passenger than I was. But he was in the Royal New Zealand Air Force and I think he’d come from Wellingtons and flown Wellingtons before. And of course at Snaith where I was stationed, 51 Squadron, they’d done all our operations from there and we hadn’t been there for long, as I say, there was only like just four men squadron up and I didn’t know any of the people that went before, you know, I mean, you just mentioned I knew a lot of people who [unclear], well I wouldn’t know, I think I knew about two, a Canadian, [unclear] Stewart or somebody like that and I know I went to Berlin one night and back or something, Slim Stewart, he was a Canadian, but no, as I say, I didn’t have enough time there to get to know anybody, I knew the group captain Grey, he was a station commander, I was in b flights squadron leader Moore, [unclear] Moore, h flights was name Russell, squadron leader Russell, and quite alright, yes I was, but as I say, we didn’t do many operations but [unclear] good the Germans were, night fighters, defences and that and as I say, we didn’t know this fighter was creeping up on us, never heard a word, never heard a word from the rear gunnery and I was horrified as I stood there and saw the tracer coming through the fuselage, you know, it caught fire, but as I say, we were blown out, that how [unclear] Netherland the cottage to walk up to the door and by [unclear] you do see these [unclear] but I was found myself floating through the air, and I saw lights going out in front of me going round and round a big roulette wheel, always remember it, and I was [unclear] I better pull this, the ripcord and I landed as I thought was a field but it was a bit of a built up area than that and I laid there for a bit I thought [unclear] a fine death or [unclear] something like that you know people come running up the Dutch farmer and he came up to me and I said, where am I? Where am I? And he said, Nederland, Nederland, I thought, where the hell is that, suddenly dropped the Netherlands, you know, and up to his house, he’s got two young daughters, they’re all clever [unclear] they brought [unclear] and money and souvenirs and [unclear] but they said that there was a couple of priests there who [unclear] quickly, they said, we’ll hide this, you know, that [unclear] a parachute and I said, we’ll have to notify the Dutch police, I presume they had to do it with any prisoners, there was a Lancaster shot down in the same area at the same time cause they picked the crew up with us and we were in this Dutch policeman’s house, he’s a Dutch police and I said notify them and he said, well, we’ll have to notify the Germans and they sent a minibus and when they opened up the doors, there was George Farmer, our wireless operator, he was a member of our crew and he’s a New Zealander and also a Lancaster crew as well, I think they were all intact, they picked them up in the same area and next thing I say I was being interrogated at a local station wanted to know where I’d come from, what the squadron was, bomb load was carrying, what [unclear] was and everything else, where you’re stationed, you know, and all that kind of business and yeah and as I say, I spent the night [unclear] and fetched up in front of this chap of the Luftwaffe, he wanted to know every day where we come from and what we were doing and all the rest of it, next thing we went to Dulag Luft [unclear] interrogation the treating of all the and then Dulag Luft, went to Amsterdam and I saw the big army place there, our second pilot, he’s been since the end of the war [unclear] travel I don’t know but I mean [unclear] we’ve been to Holland and we’ve sorted the place out with the war graves commission, we’ve been to the scene where our four chaps were buried because we had to identify them, cause the Germans said, you have to come and identify your crew and that got to [unclear] a church or somewhere and they took us down and there was four wooden coffins and there were the bodies lying in there and I said early, most of identify to let the people know, you know, but I couldn’t look at them because it upset me but [unclear] Farmer, our wireless op, he was thirteen years older than me, a bit more mature and he identified them, apparently they are buried in an air force base but after a while we in Holland that they buried them in this place where we went on a weekend in May and May is a big [unclear] first two or three days in May there were all flags flying out in Holland and, you know, as I know you come from England they will treat you well and really good. [unclear] Well, what I would like to do is to, you mentioned one chap [unclear] where he went to, I want to know how many miles we did from when we came after the camp in 1945 on that march, I mean, the names of the first, we went to Lamsdorf on the 22nd of January 1945, we could hear the Russian gunfire on the Eastern Front [unclear] and an Anson came over the Channel to evacuate the camp and we got ready to move out, we got nothing, bits of food stored up, which we took with us and out to the dark then they found us a barn, they herded us all in this barn, that’s where we slept and that’s we did, [unclear] months and months and as I say, it was the 22nd of January and [unclear] about April time before we never knew where we were like you know, I didn’t know then, I should have loved to know, I know the name of some of the important towns as Gorlitz, went from Lamsdorf to Gorlitz, oh, that was a terrible place, [unclear] Russian prisoners there, they treated them like, well, dogs, [unclear], never forget, filthy place [unclear] about a week and then moved us on the road, we never went to another camp, we went to, I can remember Jena, you know where, there are the famous optical lense [unclear] and what is the other place, where they did the porcelain? In German, Meissen [unclear], Meissen, heard about Meissen ceramic wares, marvellous, innit? [unclear] To plot the route we took and what we covered many miles [unclear] I said, end of January in April ’45 and the Germans got to be [unclear] you know and they used to catch you every morning, every night but I was with three of the [unclear] family wireless operator and we met up with another chap who was a [unclear] bloke some kind of destroyer in the Mediterranean and he decided to leave the company [unclear] like you know and we stayed, they put us in a barn one night and we stayed up there all the next day until it got dark, then we headed across the fields cause one got a compass, we could hear the Russian gunfire on our right in the East we could hear the Allied gunfire, the Americans and British on the left and we headed towards them and I know it was a terrible cold [unclear] in the [unclear] it was one of the coldest winters that I experienced.
MJ: Did you have a coat this time?
GH: Pardon?
MJ: Were you lucky enough to have a coat?
GH: A coat?
MJ: Yeah.
GH: Yes, I had a grey coat, yes, had a grey coat and one of us got a [unclear], a little [unclear] or a little saucepan. And I remember, the next morning when we woke, we [unclear] in this forest, we woke up, decided to have a cup of tea, [unclear] now we had a cup of tea, we lit a fire, made this tea and after a bit we sent a German, young German officer coming across, we thought, [unclear], this is the end, you know, [unclear] come around and put you hands up but all he said, he knew we were British and all he said was, don’t forget to put the fire out when you’re finished cause the smoke will attract aircraft in [unclear] always remembered saying that and we thought, oh, we got away with it, he got his Luger on the side, you know, he could have shot us easy, there’s four of us and the next day we saw a bloke, we were near a village, we saw a bloke with a big loaf of bread, a big cart with a loaf of bread, and we wondered where this bread had come from and we stopped him and asked him and he says, American tanks and troops so many kilometres down there, is the Third American army, the sixth army division, the Third American Army, General Patton and it was they who took care of us, they wanted us to go with them, they got a spearhead going through towards [unclear], come with us, they said, I said, no, we want to go home, we want to get back to England and they took us day by day, with these big six wheeler transport used to bring the supplies in, they took us back a few miles each day towards Paris and that, that’s where we finished up in Paris, one [unclear] did the time, that flew us from Paris to, forget the place now, I remember we had lunch [unclear] fish our fish is the best of all the Sunday lunch I’ve ever known, interrogated as quarter [unclear] as regards the performance of the aircraft, any spies, any stool pigeons, anybody like that, it was a bloke, forget his name, dammit, he was notorious but then I knew all about him and I don’t know what happened to him. But yes that was Lamsdorf for [unclear] yes. As I say, German officers sent for us, sent for me one day and in the main office and there was a German guard behind me walking with his rifle always walking behind you [unclear] shoot me but he wanted to know what my attitude was to the Russians, what my attitude was to the Russians, now they were dead scared of the Russians, yes, dead scared of the Russians, what do you think? I said, [unclear] if they attacked England, you know, I joined up and attacked them like to defend the country [unclear] saying that you know, wanted to know what my attitude was [unclear], I don’t know If I was the only one but they sent me two or three times and I, he was American cause he said to me, he said I’m a goddam American in the German, the German army, you know, and I could say, what are you doing in the German army [unclear] and things like that [unclear] I don’t know but that did happen, yes, want to know what your attitude was, what the British attitude to the Russians were, was alright, the Russians were alright, yes [coughs]. [unclear] to the camp, the barb wire, look out through the barb wire, see the typical German trees and the greenery enough in the spring and summer was nice, in the winter was bloody awful, I mean, there’s a [unclear] and you could hear the dogs patrolling the outside of the guard [unclear] you know, and there are all lights [unclear] and you went in the door of the hut, was a great big bulk kind of thing that they used in the night in case you had to [unclear] you know you couldn’t [unclear] the compound the [unclear] conditions were bloody helpless, just a [unclear] shed with a lot of wooden seats with [unclear], no cover, it’s not awful in the summer, terrible at [unclear] you know and it was whilst speaking earlier about the Dieppe prisoners, the Canadians, a lot of French Canadians killed and I reckoned, the Germans reckoned that our people took the German prisoners and chained them up with the result that we finished up in chains, you could just get under your pocket, handcuff [unclear] and you walk about like that, you sat, you sat [unclear] every morning, detail two or three blokes [unclear] big [unclear] all the chain across and bring them up from the office and then put them on you know, you walk about like that all day and if you wanted to tend to the nightshift, you get somebody of the German to unlock them, [unclear], we did all that, did all that and the parcels, [unclear] they were coming through but of course had always blame the RAF for bombing the railways or the Russians, was always blaming them, [unclear] the parcels, what you expect, we can’t get the transport, you’re bombing the railways and all that business but when we did get them, I mean, used to go down and I mean, I forget what country [unclear] parcel [unclear] us but perhaps put a pair of socks inside, just a pair of socks and [unclear] chocolate and cigarettes and of course the Germans all that when they used to go in the office and collect the parcels, this is a private parcel [unclear] that I [unclear] and cigarettes had stuck in [unclear] any messages inside and things like that you know and yeah and oh there’s a lot of chocolate, well of course that was the currency, soap and chocolate, you could get away with it, if you could bribe the Germans with that definitely and one of the blokes did and then another thing, you could go out on a working party if you wanted, if you felt that way inclined, go out on a working party, you’d pick somebody who looked you like [unclear] same way [unclear] and all this stuff and [unclear] identity, I’d go and [unclear] you [unclear] on a German farm, you know, work on a farm, get food and all that, get as much food as I wanted, you know, [unclear] like that, yeah, but we had the chance to do all that but [unclear] what you do to your [unclear] and I [unclear] by going, you know, to work you’re helping them, if you’re not, you’re not helping them and that was the idea but the parcels obviously they [unclear] parcel pretty good and milk and all that kind of stuff and there used to be one [unclear] every week was the M & V meat and veg bourse, they decided the cook house, the British blokes working in the cook house [unclear] German, they take a tin of meat and vegetable out to you parcel every week and cook it up for you kind of business that used to be great but of course there was a lot of racket going down there with blokes pinching more than one tin and all that, you say lot of that going on meat and veg always [unclear] and but we still lived alright work in twos parcel you get a parcel two a week [unclear] Tuesday or Thursday I think he does and collect the parcel and two of us living on the one parcel for two or three days and they try and get another one [unclear] part of our beds, there’s a little, have a little cupboard and a shelf and tins of this and tins of that and tins the other and cause I remember when [laughs] we had, came over the tannoy that we got load the camp at two o’clock in the afternoon the German commandant came over and he said that, you know, you gotta be ready for two o’clock, it was all queuing [unclear] all blankets and all that, you know, and we got tins of condense milk and all that kind of stuff [unclear] you know I remember I was sick of the bloody[unclear] wouldn’t let it fall under the Germans or under the Russians and, yeah, we took all this food and when they threw us, the first night when they threw us into this barn, great big barn, with straw on the floor and no lights and anything, no [unclear] and nothing like that and I felt sick and I wanted to be sick and I remember I got some new handkerchiefs had been more than seven days before and I was sitting all these handkerchiefs and that, you know, I’ll always remember that, sick as an [unclear], get up the next morning, you don’t know where you are going, what you were doing, I asked for a drink of water, no one would give you one, someone would give you drink of water, others wouldn’t, had promised you some [unclear] potatoes, cooked potatoes in big wicker baskets at the end of the day but you never got at the end of the day, you never got them, cause I [unclear] one or two of the German officers I reported it [unclear] one of them books down there I mentioned his name [unclear] what his name was but what happened I don’t know but they weren’t very, as I say, they never treated us, they never treated us too bad, anybody getting beat up or anything, cause lots of people, as you say, [unclear] to us, French Canadians captured at Dieppe, there were Sikhs and Indians and all kinds of, Palestinians [unclear] a year, the interrogator, he was a Palestinian, [unclear] Zelba, I don’t remember his name, and he used to do all our deals for [unclear], he used to get us a bit more coal to put [unclear] brickets to put on the stove, in the [unclear], you know to keep warm and we used to give him cigarettes and [unclear] and he used to bribe the German guard, he could speak German, he was born in Hamburg, as I say, he joined, he was with the RAF in Cyprus, and when Cyprus fell of course he was captured [unclear] Germany [unclear] collect cigarettes and all that, that’s how we used to get our stuff, listen to the radio every night [unclear] the bulletin come round, anybody caught with radios [unclear] every so often they would come and have a search they turn you all outside on a day like this, they turn outside early in the morning and they’d be out there all the bloody day, turning all your bed was ripped out, all that, you know [unclear] and put in detention, you know, and he ran away and the Jerry guard on a, it was on a Sunday and we was all lined up outside we saw all this going on and he ran away the chap did and the German guard got down on his knees and shot this bloke you know, he told him to halt and all that but he wouldn’t and that was going out on working party, yeah, but of course we gotta a senior British medical officer in the camp and he used to look after and he complained [unclear] and the leader of the camp was a regimental sergeant major [unclear] during some [unclear] and he had the badge at the back of the camp because [unclear] artillery [unclear] once and they always wore the at the back [unclear] he’s a camp leader but, you see, he outer perimeter [unclear] look at the people strolling and on a Sunday afternoon in the summer, I was looking and also he was looking [unclear] and former [unclear] and they had a dance round there and you could study, got to night school and [unclear] did a bit of that but [unclear] a bit smoking and could have a bit of walk now and again, you know, yeah, waiting for the news every night how far the Russians had got, how far, yeah, it was an experience, but as I say, really [unclear] one thing trying to get [unclear] more to do a book on the great escape or something but it was written by the one of them Tornado pilots or navigator who got shot down and of course [unclear] the forty’s war was lighter and he [unclear] but [unclear] I can’t read properly although I do a lot of reading. I met a German air force officer and he stopped and talked to us, spoke perfectly English and he said he was sorry for what we’ve been treated and he got us for that night, he got us in his barracks kind of place, like a German naffy, we [unclear], we could eat a German eat [unclear] in their naffy and he got us some brickets to put on the stove and there was straw on the floor, pallet on the floor, and pack of ten or twenty Polish cigarettes [unclear] concession [unclear] for what we’ve been through and we’ve be going through cause that was a [unclear] German, I remember I loved to know where we went and how many miles w covered, I never got to know that [unclear] laughing but I was a bit more serious on that and of course I combed me hair and do myself up but when our working party went out that was the main gates past the office where all the girls worked, checking identities and that cause look at your photo and, you know, oh that’s not you, you’re somebody else and used to be play the band and then march out and I knew a couple of guards, officers, forget what I was in, was in the cavalry, I was six foot, very look smart when I went out and that was to intimidate the Germans cause I looked a real scruffy lad. I think it was on the route to, perhaps on the route to Lamsdorf and they put us in a waiting room and there was all German soldiers in their uniform sitting, all [unclear] drinking and eating but we had to head up the corner, was about half a dozen or more of us and I remember the pipes was on, was warm in there, I mentioned it was warm and this one German, he says, we’ll make you sweat before long, you know, make it hot for you, always remember that, we were there cornered up in the corner, no sitting at the tables, long long waiting [unclear] the station in the waiting room, no, they wouldn’t let us sit at the table, on the chairs [unclear] on the floor and when they took us to one Sunday lunch on they took us to get on the train to go to across to this camp, all the Dutch people was crowding round us cause we stood there in a circle, was guards there with the rifles just waiting for the train to come and the Dutch people would inquisitive, you know, and I was given just a [unclear] and laughing at the Germans backs, you know, [unclear] that them kind of things, you could see [unclear] definitely.
MJ: On behalf of the International Bomber Command I’d like to thank George Hextell, Warrant Officer, from Squadron 51 for his recording on the 4th of January 2016 at one thirty. Once again, thank you again.
GH: Right.
MJ: And that was one hour and
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with George Hextell
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-04
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHextellGJE160104
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Format
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00:55:04 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
George Hextell joined the RAF as a flight engineer and flew operations with 51 Squadron on Halifaxes. After being shot down over Holland, he became a prisoner of war. Gives a detailed account of how his capture, imprisonment and liberation. Describes various episodes from the POW camp Stalag VIIIB: living conditions; food barter; witnessing an attempted escape.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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France
Great Britain
Poland
Netherlands
France--Dieppe
Poland--Łambinowice
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1945
51 Squadron
aircrew
Dulag Luft
final resting place
flight engineer
flight mechanic
ground crew
Halifax
mechanics engine
mine laying
prisoner of war
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Padgate
RAF Snaith
RAF St Athan
recruitment
shot down
Spitfire
Stalag 8B
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/860/11102/AHarrisNG160128.2.mp3
617dde8eedd97b1d29cf4bc164b586a4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harris, Neil
Neil Gibson Harris
N G Harris
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Neil Harris (b. 1920, 56027 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 578 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harris, NG
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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BW: Alright. This is Brian Wright, I am interviewing Flight Lieutenant Brian Wright DFC of Bomber Command on Thursday, the 28th of January 2016 at his home in Lidham and the time is twenty past three in the afternoon. Just to start us with a formal question, if you wouldn’t mind so, could you just confirm your full name, rank on leaving and your service number please?
NH: Neil Gibson Harris, 56027, Flight Lieutenant.
BW: Ok. And I believe you are born in November 1920 in Bournemouth.
NH: 27/11/1920, yes.
BW: What was your family like, you lived with your parents, of course, did you have any brothers or sisters?
NH: Yes, I had two brothers and one sister we, fairly wide range, my eldest brother was nine years older than me and my sister was six years younger than me. So, was a spread of fifteen years between us, we are a working-class family, thank you, but very close.
BW: And what was the area like where you were growing up, was it [unclear]?
NH: Very pleasant indeed, oh, suburban, but very pleasant. Although basically a lower middle-class type area.
BW: And you were at school in Bournemouth during that time?
NH: Yes.
BW: I understand that you left school at fourteen.
NH: Fourteen, school called East Howe.
BW: East Howe.
NH: Yes.
BW: And did you have any qualifications?
NH: No, there weren’t, there were no qualifications available in those days. Not at fourteen, no, just, you just left school at fourteen and started working. And I went to work in the East Dorset brickworks as an office boy but by the end of nine months, I was rang into [unclear] office and my salary went, my wages went from seven and six to fifteen schillings, the works manager didn’t, gave me all his work to do [laughs]
BW: Just [unclear] you with it.
NH: So, I went from there to Bowmakers, which is a banking facilities company in Bournemouth, where I upgraded my position quite a bit, I was a proper clerk, a junior clerk.
BW: And from there I understand you went into the civil service.
NH: No, not the civil service, no, I went straight into the Air Force from there.
BW: Oh, I see, so you were [unclear]
NH: As an apprentice, as an apprentice. No, I’ve never been in the civil service, No, I went, that was, I was fifteen when I went to Bowmakers and I was nearly seventeen when I joined the RAF as an apprentice at Halton.
BW: Ok, and this would be 1937, so that would be
NH: That would be 1930, no, earlier, yes, ’37, that’s right, yes, ’37, September ’37.
BW: And what attracted you to join the RAF, what was your interest in that?
NH: Well, there were half a dozen or so, junior clerks, they all had had benefit of grammar school type of education, which is different to the one that I had and I, three or four of them were interested in the RAF, two of them, like myself, became apprentices, and one of them became an acting private officer
BW: I see.
NH: And a man named Haynes, he was a Battle of Britain pilot eventually, he was killed eventually too, got a DFC, shot down five, after that I don’t know anything about him but he didn’t survive the war, that’s all I know.
BW: A shame. And so, what prompted you to join the RAF, did you sense that the war was coming or did you [unclear]?
NH: Well, I think It’s the effect of three or four of us talking about the RAF and doing quite a nice job, had a pleasant working situation at Bowmakers but we wanted more excitement, I think. And of course I wanted more education, I, leaving school at fourteen I still felt I’d liked to have gone to a public school, there’s no chance of me doing that but RAF Halton provided a fairly good substitute, we had school and workshops and plenty of sport, which is what I wanted.
BW: And was there a good social life as well?
NH: Oh, no, social life, no, you weren’t allowed out [laughs], no, there’s three years hard regime but you had plenty of sports, but never saw a girl [laughs], no, we were all frustrated [unclear] [laughs]
BW: And so you
NH: It was a good training, excellent, marvellous training of course.
BW: And so, your trade in the engineering branch was what?
NH: I was a fitter 2A, a fitter to airframe.
BW: Ok.
NH: I managed to get in because the expansion scheme had started and the entries became much larger so I [unclear] an examination of three set papers, quite large, got a couple of them here somewhere, and I’m quite impressed by the standards that they required. So I did a lot of private study, my second brother was a very clever man, young man, he helped me a lot, he was an, he was a really highly, he became a highly qualified engineer and he helped me a lot, I managed to scrape in and but by that time, entries were getting to something like nine hundred or a thousand, so two entries a year, and of course the expansion scheme has started because of the threat of Hitler and there were, so, we were, before that time it was, you were called fitter twos and you did both engines and airframes, they split us up, the aircrafts were becoming more complicated and so you either became airframe, a fitter airframe or a fitter engine and then you did your three year, it’s a three year training, you did your three year training either as a fitter to airframe or a fitter to engine, and then the scheme was that after you’d been out on a normal squadron, and had practical experienced, you went back and did another year and that would be a conversion, if you did airframes before then you did a year on engines or vice versa so then you became a fitter one, so that’s basically how the training worked.
BW: And so, you get a good grounding not just in the structure of the aircraft but also the powerplants as well.
NH: You would, by that time but of course the war intervened from my entry and we stayed as fitter 2A’s of course but I got off and I took the easier route and managed to get onto aircrew. And but they wouldn’t let me, as soon as I finished my training, I volunteered for aircrew, but they wouldn’t release me until enough people, the war started by then but they wouldn’t release me to go onto aircrew duties until they had enough people in from, to be converted to trades, you know, as engineering trades and I could leave, so it took me nearly eighteen months from the time of being selected to being called up.
BW: So they needed enough people to be in the pool to replace you
NH: That’s right, that’s
BW: Because they could allow the engineers to move on.
NH: Yes
BW: [unclear]
NH: That’s right, yes.
BW: And what attracted you think to aircrew, was is, there simply more money, cause there was flying pay [unclear] or was it [unclear]?
NH: I wanted the glamour.
BW: Alright.
NH: A little bit it was there but I [laughs], I wanted to be a fighter pilot.
BW: I see.
NH: Yeah.
BW: And did that involve more tests and [unclear]?
NH: Not until you got onto, when I was eventually called up of course then by that time of course there the whole process was so huge that there are bottlenecks and so every stage it took time because you had to wait until you could move on to the next stage, the, either, whether held up training or something of that sort so, we start off at the ITW, which in my case was, well, first of all it started off in London, at the air crew receiving centre and we were all there, we live, we ate at the zoo, I remember,
BW: At London Zoo.
NH: At London Zoo, and lived in flats, in luxury flats in North West London and marched to the zoo for our meals.
BW: Right.
NH: But that, again, took a long time before we moved on and the next stage was to go on to the Initial Training Wing, where you did an eight week course and learned navigation and various other skills but there was a bottleneck there, I remember I went down to Brighton for a, just to occupy time, and eventually, although I’d been called up in November, November ’41, that’s right, and I was at Wick at the time when, as a fitter, on the, we were protecting the convoys coming into Liverpool but we’d been stationed at Stornoway on the Outer Hebrides,
BW: That’s where Wick is, is that right?
NH: Pardon?
BW: That’s where Wick is.
NH: No, Wick, no, Wick is on the north east coast.
BW: Ok.
NH: And now we moved over there with Hudsons, we had started with Ansons and changed over to Hudsons, when we moved up to Stornoway and then from Stornoway, we moved over to Wick. But whilst we were at Wick, I was called up for aircrew duties and that was in November ’41, I happened to be on leave at the time in Bournemouth so I got recalled from Bournemouth to Wick, which was to go back to London [laughs] to start my aircrew duties and as I say, then, we had, we hung around in Regent’s Park waiting for the next stage, well the first stage of training and that didn’t happen, this was in November ’41 and we didn’t get to Stratford until about the end of January, February ’42 and then we had this eight week course at Stratford learning navigation, doing drill, all RT and all the rest of it.
BW: So you travelled in a very short time to the length and breadth of the country cause you’ve gone from a short period of time in Brighton right up to the north of Scotland to work on aircraft protecting the convoys and then, across the other side of Scotland, then back down again, and called for [unclear] training
NH: Well, just go back a little bit, when I left, when I graduated from Halton, well, I graduated as a, what’s the right word, as an aircraftsman first class, normally I’d have an entry at, say, of a hundred, well take a hundred, apprentices leaving but ten would pass out as leading aircraftsmen, ten or fifteen would pass out as leading aircraftsmen, aircraftsmen first class, about sixty or so would pass out as aircraftsmen first class and the remainder would pass out as AC2 but the rate of pay was quite significant, a leading aircraftsman would get forty two schillings a week, which was a big rise from five and six pence,
BW: Yeah, absolutely.
NH: Yeah. So, I passed out an AC1 which is 31, 31 of 31 and six pence a week, which is quite good, I, [laughs].
BW: And was that more than you were earning in the bank previously?
NH: Oh, yes, oh yes, in the bank I was getting seventeen and six, I think it was, might have gonna up, to nearly a pound, but no, seventeen to six a week, yes,
BW: So you almost doubled
NH: No, I, and of course, as an apprentice, I’m only getting three schillings a week, for the first two weeks and then five and six pence for the last week, that’s the third week. And then when I passed out as an AC1, I would have jumped up to thirty-one and six pence a week, which is magnificent,
BW: I believe at some point during your early training, you caught pneumonia and had to be sort of
NH: Oh that was before, that was at the end of my training,
BW: Oh, I see.
NH: Yes, this was, the war had started October, November, I caught pneumonia almost [unclear] they had to, they called my mother to come up because they thought I wouldn’t live but M & B was the new drug which they’d produced and that saved my life I think because but always touch and go anyway, when I recovered and I came out, my entry had, the whole thing was telescoped, you see, did a three year course, when the war started, all sports afternoons were stopped, we worked longer hours, and the whole thing was telescoped from the three years to a much shorter one but so we were on that at the time that I went into hospital with pneumonia and when I came out, my entry had finished and they’d gone, so I was left on my own, they gave me some Christmas leave and when I came back, I just studied on my own for a few weeks and passed out on my own as an AC1. I probably had passed out as an AC2 [laughs]. So, I’ve been lucky that way.
BW: So, there was no parade for you then, unfortunately, they just allowed you
NH: No, I just, no.
BW: So you graduated [unclear]
NH: I went down to Thorney Island under 48 Squadron, which is at Coastal Command, we had Ansons then, as I said, and then we, as an AC1. Is it all getting a bit garbled for you?
BW: No, no, that’s perfectly fine. So, during your time at Thorney Island then, which is near Chichester,
NH: Yeah.
BW: You were still as a tradesman, you were an aircraftman
NH: That’s right
BW: First class
NH: Yeah.
BW: What was it like there, what sort of air, you said Ansons then, have other aircraft there too? [unclear] and Blenheims, would you work on them at all or?
NH: No, only Ansons.
BW: Ah, ok.
NH: Yeah. And of course we were there to protect the shipping coming up to Southampton and to the docks along the south coast but then, when the invasion of the low countries came, it was too dangerous and the shipping was moved up to Liverpool, Liverpool and Glasgow and so we followed the shipping up to Liverpool and we were stationed at Hooton Park.
BW: I see. So around the time of the Battle of Britain and when the invasion was looking imminent during the summer of 1940,
NH: Yeah.
BW: You and your squadron, 48 Squadron, actually moved up to Liverpool.
NH: To Liverpool and we were there for about a year I think before we moved up to, because then there were all bombed badly and the submarine menace became bigger and we moved, and so the shipping was moved further up into Glasgow and so we moved up to Stornoway,
BW: I see.
NH: And then to Wick. Don’t quite know why we did that, we were on Hudsons by that time.
BW: How did you find them to work on?
NH: Well of course [unclear] much, they’d hydraulics of course which you know, on the Anson it was a wind up undercarriage, took a hundred and twenty turns to get the wheels up, well of course there was much more hydraulics on the Hudsons, very modern by comparison with the Anson.
BW: And so, you mentioned earlier about having completed your trade training, you were called up for aircrew which is in November ‘41 thereabouts, did you apply to be a pilot or did you?
NH: Yes, I wanted to be a pilot, yeah, I wanted to be a glamourous pilot and go out with girls [laughs]
BW: [laughs] And what happened to enable the change [unclear]?
NH: Well you see that, everything, as I said, was taking so long with bottlenecks everywhere, they decided to change from being a two pilot crew to one pilot and introduced bomb aimers and bomb aimers very often failed pilots, [unclear] capable of getting an aircraft back perhaps in an emergency as the pilot was no longer capable, that was the, so, the some man crew then became a pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator, engineer and two gunners, that’s a Halifax or Lancaster.
BW: Ok.
NH: And so then of course they had a business of what they called grading and so all of us who wanted to be pilots, we had to go to a grading school and fly Tiger Moths and be graded and although we went solo, I did a very poor final test so they graded me down, I’m afraid I messed it up, I made a mess of the spin, that sort of thing but so that was very disappointing but so they transferred me to being a navigator.
BW: I see.
NH: And others who were the same, were either navigators or bomb aimers did navigator or bomb aimer training.
BW: Ok. And so, until this stage you’ve been training on Tiger Moths
NH: Tiger Moths
BW: As a pilot
NH: Yeah
BW: But I believe you were sent abroad to Canada so you
NH: Well then, then of course I went to, yes, that’s right, I went to Rivers, near Winnipeg, went over on the Queen Elisabeth, just newly constructed, that was in, that was in September ’42, yes, September ’42, oh, because of the bottleneck we gone down to Eastbourne for further navigation, for navigation training, so we did a further navigation course down there, that was after we’d failed, we failed to become pilots and went down and became navigators, this is the start of our navigation course at Eastbourne, so did a few weeks there and then we moved across, up to, somewhere near Manchester, where we stayed there before we were shipped up to Glasgow to get onto the Queen Elisabeth.
BW: And what was it like going across to Canada?
NH: Oh, quite good, I mean, we were only a few thousand aircrew going across to, a mixture of pilots and navigators, most of the pilots went down south to Texas or somewhere like that and we went to a place called Mana, called Rivers in Manitoba, in the middle of Canada, about a hundred and twenty miles from Winnipeg and so we were only going out, we were only about two or three thousand I think aircrew under training or going for training. Coming back, I, and I came back on the same boat, we landed in New York, then went to up to Moncton in Canada on the East Coast and then across to, had two or three weeks there, it’s all bottlenecks all the time before we were posted to Rivers at Manitoba, that took a three day rail journey from
BW: Wow.
NH: And we got there about the middle of September.
BW: So just in time before the winter set in.
NH: Just setting in, yes, a week or two later they froze, they sprayed a compound of water and that was the ice rink for the rest of the winter, yeah.
BW: So, did you get much flying in during that time?
NH: Oh yes, yes, yes, in Ansons again, bitterly cold because we had to do astro training was the big feature and we had to open the hatch and these pilots of course shuddered at the cold air coming in but we had to take our, take these, you know, all these [unclear] and stuff, fortunately in Canada, you know, you get these wonderful clear nights, and the stars and everything so visible, it was a, for doing astro navigation, it was ideal.
BW: So you had to
NH: But it was still to bloody cold.
BW: So you actually had to open the hatch mid flying in order to take reading the stars.
NH: Yeah, and take the reading, well, the stars you wanted, yeah. But navigation was simple in Canada because the nights were clear and the days were, cold and brisk, you know, you could see for miles, you could, you get airborne at Rivers, hundred and twenty miles from Winnipeg, and of course you could see Winnipeg because it is, all the lights were still on in Canada
BW: No blackout.
NH: No. And there’s only a few towns there anyway and you knew exactly which town, by the size, so navigation was simple.
BW: What was life like there in general, did you manage to travel out or did you meet any Canadians, at least some aircrew were stationed off base or b&bs and things but presumably you [unclear]
NH: Oh no, we lived, oh no, we were right in the prairies, we just the camp,
BW: So just yourselves and
NH: Place called Brandon, was about twenty five miles away, [unclear] I never went there, once or twice, we did get down to Londa, to Minneapolis [unclear] at Christmas there over the Christmas period but we managed to work our way down there for a, for the Christmas break
BW: And did you stay
NH: Rather special
BW: And did you stay over in hotels and things and [unclear]
NH: No, we stayed with, while went to the US the United States organisation, you know, like the Red cross naffy or whatever but being American at that time was very well appointed, we had written to them before saying we are coming, and they phoned us out, we stayed with a professor, while he was away, on national service, he was a Lieutenant colonel American Air Force but he was a professor at Minneapolis University and we stayed with him, with his wife, five of us.
BW: And was that your crew that you went with then?
NH: No, not, we weren’t crewed up then, we were just five navigators under training.
BW: Ok. And from there you, I believe, you passed out as sergeant observer navigator
NH: Sergeant observer navigator, yes,
BW: You graduated while you were in Canada.
NH: That’s right, yes, came back to Moncton to wait for our journey home, which again was on the Queen Elisabeth from New York. And then back in Glasgow, by avoiding the U-boats, but because we were so fast, they couldn’t, they couldn’t get any nearer but both the Queen Mary and the Queen Elisabeth both scootered across the Atlantic, coming back it was very different than coming out, we brought all the American troops, about fifteen thousand American troops on board.
BW: So this is pretty much at the height of the Atlantic war, then, isn’t it? When the [unclear]
NH: Yes, this is, this would be March ’43 now and we are just beginning to get over the U-boat, we are just beginning to get control of the U-boat menace, it was in ’42 the U-boat menace was at its highest, and it was a serious problem, well still was but we, yeah, we are getting on top of it by the time I came back in ’43.
BW: And so from there you went to
NH: We went to Harrogate, we were all, Harrogate was the assembly point and we were all assembled, officers went into the Majestic and sergeants went into the Grand Hotel in Harrogate, do you know them?
BW: Yes, I’ve been
NH: And the Majestic
BW: I’ve been to one, yes.
NH: Yeah. So
BW: Very nice [unclear] hotels
NH: We didn’t mind that at all, this was March, we had a couple of weeks leave in Bournemouth and back and then we were kept hanging around again, waiting to go on to our onto the OTU, which is the next step in our training, operational training unit, and that took some time, I remember, in order to occupy us they sent us up to Perth, to a flying training school that flew Tiger Moths around the, the name of the river near Perth, do you know it? Tay, is it, Tay?
BW: Tay.
NH: Lovely, anyway, lovely week, I think it was only a week or ten days, just a way of keeping us amused, before we, eventually we did get to the operational training which was at Kinloss, in northern Scotland.
BW: And was that number 19 OTU, [unclear]
NH: I don’t remember the number, [unclear] on my log book. But it’s, yes, operational at Kinloss and we were on Whitleys, so we are on a different aeroplane now. And this will be, by the time we did that, it’s August, August ’43, so it’s already taken me from November ’41 and now we are in, at August ’43,I got my navigator’s brevy but I still haven’t got, I’m still not operationally trained, that we did on a Whitley.
BW: Right. So it’s taken you, as you say, approximately two years, they needed two years
NH: yeah.
BW: To get to that operational training unit.
NH: Yeah. That’s right, yeah. And that finished for about the end of October, beginning of November ’43,
BW: Ok.
NH: So I think it be the end of October, we were posted, we were crewed up there, that was the big feature and I, you all join up together, you look around and you see who you’d like to fly with. I joined up with a chap named, sergeant, he was a sergeant, Sergeant Wilkinson, we liked the look of one another I suppose, so he and I joined and that was the usual pattern, you and the pilot joined up and you skited around and gathered in the rest of the crew which at this stage we would be five, wireless operator, gunner and a gunner.
BW: And this I believe commonly took place in just a big hangar, they amalgamated all together
NH: No, that’s right, yes
BW: And they just left them
NH: Left us to sort ourselves out, yes, a funny system.
BW: And so, you crew up with Sergeant Wilkinson,
NH: Sergeant Wilkinson, yeah.
BW: And do you recall the names of the other crew members?
NH: No, I can’t. No, I’m afraid I can’t. Oh, George Dugray, yeah, a French Canadian, oh, that was later, no, he’s the bomb aimer, oh yes, he was there too. Did George Dugray? Anyway, he joined us on the next one, the heavy conversion unit, when we got on to the Halifaxes.
BW: So
NH: He was a French-Canadian bomb aimer
BW: So if you were five crewmen initially, what were going to be flying at that point when you initially met Wilkinson and Dugray?
NH: Well, we only knew that we would probably Halifaxes or Lancasters were most likely.
BW: I see.
NH: Well the possibility of a Mosquitoes if we were lucky.
BW: So, where were you when you were looking for your crew and when you were getting yourselves together, was this at Burne or was this elsewhere?
NH: Oh no, this was at the operational training unit at Kinloss
BW: Kinloss.
NH: At Kinloss,
BW: I see.
NH: Yes, that’s when you came together
BW: I see.
NH: And up to that time we’d all been navigators but as you know you are split up and you find your crew, so with them we flew as a crew then, pilot, navigator, did we have a bomb aimer? I suppose we did have Dugray as bomb aimer, wireless operator, not an engineer, gunner. That’s right, yes, that’ll be it. That’s the five, isn’t it? One gunner, engineer, no, one gunner, bomb aimer, navigator, pilot. And wireless operator. So then, then you had to do, you went through the whole, all the daylight flying, night flying and of course very different flying conditions in Kinloss in Scotland, the blackout and very few aids and it was a very difficult and hazardous training period and a lot collided into the mountains through inexperience cause that’s what we were, totally inexperienced and there was a lot of fatalities there. So, it wasn’t an easy time.
BW: What sort of aids were you working with as a navigator then at this point?
NH: I’d be twenty-one, twenty one.
BW: What sort of navigational aids or equipment were you using at this time?
NH: Oh, hardly any
BW: So was
NH: Radio, we could get the old radio bearing, navigation and that’s it
BW: Was it all dead reckoning
NH: Otherwise dead reckoning, yeah, and that was one of the troubles as where people, they got lost and they sended through cloud and hit the high ground.
BW: And roughly how long were you on the OTU?
NH: That’s about six to eight weeks, we went the end of August, it’ll be eight weeks and we finished round about the end of October, beginning of November.
BW: So, this is October, November ’43.
NH: That’s right, yeah, yeah. And then of course we still hadn’t finished, then we got to go to the heavy conversion unit, flying the sort of aeroplanes we were going to fly on operations, which in our case was the Halifax and that was when we were posted to Rufforth to a heavy conversion unit at Rufforth which is about four miles out of York.
BW: And you were onto Halifaxes at that point.
NH: Yeah.
BW: Did you acquire any more crew members at all [unclear]?
NH: Oh yes, that’s where the engineer came, and the second gunner, that’s it. Yes, that’s right, Dugray, he did join us up at [unclear] and so were five when we went down to Rufforth and then we were joined by the other, by the mid upper gunner and by the flight engineer.
BW: Do you happen to recall their names at all or?
NH: No. I can’t.
BW: That’s alright.
NH: I can’t. Hardly anyone finished, I was the only one that finished the op, a full round of ops, they all disappeared one way or another. Well, you see, Wilkinson who I became, who became a good friend, splendid, a good looking chap too, and he became, he was going to go to university, he, when we finished our training at Rufforth, preparing to go to a squadron, we had finally finished our training and now we are fully qualified but it was quite usual for pilots to go on an experience exercise and he was sent on to do a run on on an operation on Berlin and that was the end of him and so we didn’t have a pilot and that kept us waiting again.
BW: And do you recall who eventually came
NH: Yes, I’ve got his name, what’s his name? Oh Gosh, my memory’s gone, I’m afraid,
BW: That’s alright.
NH: It’s in the logbook, he was a flying officer, so now as a sergeant I was being teamed up with a flying officer, who’d been posted from Hemswell. Well, Hemswell was a station, was a Bomber Command station in 4 Group and it achieved a terrible reputation for not pressing on to the target and Harris, the Bomber Command chief came up, called them all sorts of names, and closed the station down, Hemswell, everybody was posted, and I got one of those.
BW: I see.
NH: And so we did our, we did [unclear] game, so we had to train together again on the Halifax from Rufforth and that took us until well after Christmas, during which time I met my wife, who, the girl that became my wife.
BW: And how did you meet her?
NH: Oh, I met her at a dance, and she’d gone with, oh, she had arranged to meet a girlfriend at the Grey Rooms in York, I don’t know if you know it.
BW: No, I don’t.
NH: Oh, it was a lovely place, oh, we all got there, all the, York was full of aircrew, Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians particularly and Brits and a few Americans and of course there wasn’t much in York then, everything was closed down but there was a lovely dance place, the Dugrey Rooms, and that’s where we all went, to meet girls and that’s where I met my wife.
US: Sorry, after Williams your pilot, you then had Houston.
NH: Williams, Williams, that’s right. Flying officer Williams, he was the one who was, came to Rufforth from Hemswell we, I having lost Wilkinson and what you say the name was?
US: Williams.
NH: Williams. Oh, he had, I eventually found out he was called Turnback Williams, we are not going to the target? I’ll on that, busy
BW: Part of the reason Harris talk to these guys.
NH: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right so I did all my, I completed all my training with, as a, with him, with Williams, and from there at the end from February 44, now is it? End of 44, yes, Paul Williams of course, when he was sent out on his second Dickey for experience, that was at the height of the Berlin raids, and the losses were huge, we’d been, we’d been on those of course, if he’d come back from his, from his trip of experience
BW: Second Dickey means like a second pilot
NH: Second pilot experience, yes, yeah, so he didn’t come back and I wrote to his father and I got a nice, I might have it somewhere a nice letter from his father who is a stockbroker in London and anyway so I saw that with Williams then we completed another bit of training before we went off to the squadron which I say was about the end of February ’44.
BW: And this was the newly formed 578 Squadron.
NH: And that was the newly formed, yes, they were only formed about three months before
BW: And they were specifically
NH: From Snaith.
BW: And they were specifically flying Halifaxes Mark III as they were one of the first
NH: I was jolly lucky to get on one of those cause it was just as good as the Lancaster, radial engines Bristol and they could get up to the required height and carry a similar amount of bombs, splendid.
BW: So, your first sortie with 578 would be in February as you say,
NH: In March
BW: In March
NH: Then in February, then again the training was so much, I mean they wouldn’t escort, again got ourselves familiarised with the Mark Iii and done a couple of training runs before we were then considered to be operational and that took place in March and it was during that time the Nuremberg raid and of the pilots at Burton on the squadron, he got a posthumous VC.
BW: Did you know him?
NH: No, I didn’t know him, no, no, I’d only been on the squadron a week or so but I didn’t know him, I know, no, I didn’t know him, I didn’t really know him, I didn’t know anybody really, we kept to ourselves a
BW: You tend to associate with your crew if anything
NH: Just with the crew, didn’t mix much with anybody else, you stuck pretty close into the crew and as I had a girlfriend now in York I scuttled off there [laughs].
BW: So, it was looking pretty serious with your girlfriend
NH: Already started to look serious, yes, yeah, we got engaged in April, after I’d done about five operations. I took her down to Bournemouth to meet my family.
BW: Right. And so, what were the accommodation facilities like at Burne, this is where your 578 Squadron
NH: They weren’t bad, it was a brand-new place, you know, all Hudson.
BW: Were you billeted with the crew?
NH: Oh yes, yes, I, we were in huts of course but as sergeants we had little privileges, the sergeant’s mess and that sort of thing, reasonably comfortable of course, we were well-fed as aircrew, the local people, we always had eggs before we went and that sort of thing, things which people couldn’t get on the ration we had plenty of, plenty of chips too cause at the age of twenty one, twenty two I [unclear] of chips [laughs]
BW: [unclear]
NH: [unclear]
BW: And were you the only crew in the billet sometimes or there were two crews in there or?
NH: I think we were the only one, as far as I can remember we were the only one.
BW: And at this time there was a CO in charge
NH: Yes.
BW: Wing Commander Wilkey Wilkinson, do you recall him?
NH: Oh, I do very well, yes, he’s one chap I do remember, and I’ve never been a hero worshiper but I would think I would put him into that category. Marvellous chap, good looking, tall, great sense of humour, great, young, handsome, had every quality, but you knew that if Wilkinson was flying it was gonna be a bad one, he’d only, he wouldn’t take the easy ones, he’d always took the bad ones, great leader, he was on his second tour, too, very nice chap too because then of course I, to going on a bit further, I was with Williams, I did two operations with Williams, I didn’t remember what it was I didn’t like but I didn’t like it, I went to see Williams in great trepidation but I didn’t know what Williams I never spoke to Wing Commanders, they were far too elevated, but I went to see him and so I did my night flying with Williams so I said, we must have talked a bit, I can’t remember, so he said right leave with me, I’ll fix you up with somebody else and I went then to, I was teamed up then with Houston, Jock Houston, and we stayed together all the time, finished together, got commissioned together, got a DFC together.
BW: And so, you when you went from your crew flying with Williams at this point
NH: Yes
BH: To make the change to another crew
NH: Yes, the others all, I [unclear], yes, yeah.
BW: [unclear]
NH: [unclear]
BW: [unclear]
NH: Well, Williams did finish his tour, yes, but I don’t know who he flew, he finished the tour.
BW: The other members of your crew didn’t pick up your sense of
NH: No,
BW: [unclear]
NH: Not as far as I know. No, no.
BW: And you mentioned about Wilkinson, there’s a description here which seems to chime with what you commented about it and it’s only a short description if I can read it to you, it says, he was described by those who knew him as a tall, loose end fellow, the first impression that a stranger might have of him was that he was rather irresponsible, care-free, vague individual, but on closer acquaintance he would seem that he had one of the kindest, gentlest and most sympathetic
NH: Oh, I think that was pretty accurate
BW: Could possess
NH: Yes
BW: He had the knack of inspiring confidence in his crew, when flying I can’t remember anything disturbing him, he was huge with his men
NH: No, no. There’s my little story in that book he’s flying a strange aircraft, an unusual aircraft and he’s got an army man, and army major alongside him but oh, they couldn’t get the flaps down and the army major says to Wilkinson, can you fly this without flaps? He said, well, you are just about to find out [laughs].
BW: And it says of him because he was awarded a DSO he said, he inspired powers of leadership, great skill and determination, qualities which have earned him much success, his devoted squadron commander, his great drive and tactical abilities used in large measure to the high standard of operation to assume the squadron
NH: Yeah, he did, yeah, briefing were always made a pleasure by him being here, he made them quite different, we quite looked forward to his briefing
BW: And when you, you mentioned about him when he going out on a bad raid, were you aware that if he briefed it, it was gonna be a bad one or was it the case [unclear] the raids?
NH: No, not particularly, no, but you knew that if he was on it, it wouldn’t be an easy one.
BW: But he, he always gave the briefing whatever the raid was.
NH: Oh yes, oh yes.
BW: There was only a few at the time
NH: That’s right, yeah, yeah. Yes, I remember his briefing, that is one thing I do remember quite well. Always something to look forward to. I remember a young WAAF officer looking at him I think, Gosh, I’d like a young woman to look at me like that [laughs].
BW: So, by now you are on the early part of your tour and initially it looks like you got operations mainly over Germany, are there any other particular raids through March that you recall?
NH: No, they were all a great big jumble mainly, I, oh, there is one when we lost a lot of aeroplanes.
BW: That night be Nuremberg presumably.
NH: No, not Nuremberg, I didn’t do Nuremberg, there is some, somewhere like, oh, retro memory for names, the size of the Ruhr, a fairly long trip and I remember coming out, they’d briefed us to come down from the target area right down to five thousand feet, it seemed odd tactic, I remember going up with another navigator to Nuremberg, I don’t like this and he said, I wish we weren’t doing this one and he didn’t come back. We lost six that night. So, I don’t know what that tactic was all about.
BW: So, at this time, when you
NH: Oh, I’m trying to remember the name, that, Karlsruhe,
BW: Karlsruhe. And so at this when you were doing operations, you’ve gone from the billet to the ops room to be briefed, you’ve had your briefing, just talk me through then what you would do from there in terms of boarding the aircraft, the checks you would do, what sort of things would be going on then.
NH: Well, we had our own, quite a lot of instruments, we had Gee for example, the bomb aimer would have his stuff but I would have all my charts, gee charts, ordinary plotting charts, what were they called? [unclear] and then the Gee charts, all rather luminous, astro navigation, [unclear] anyway, waste of time most of the time but always had to do it, sextant, all the stuff had to be checked and so, you know, that took up quite a long time, you did that some with the pilot, checking the routes and marking off certain points on it.
BW: And H2S was coming in at this time.
NH: Oh, we didn’t have H2S.
BW: That wasn’t on your aircraft.
NH: We didn’t have it, no,
BW: And was the Gee equipment located right where you position were?
NH: Right in front like that
BW: Ok.
NH: Had a table, table, yeah.
BW: In some aircraft [unclear] different.
NH: And that, that was an incredibly, wonderful instrument I had, of course the Germans were jamming it as much as they could and you’d lose it, you’d, what it did help you to do was to get an accurate wind, cause that’s so incredibly important, if you got an accurate wind then doing jet reconning isn’t going to be too bad and you could get Gee fixes right up to inside the Dutch coast so it gave you a whole string of fixes and a whole comprehension of the wind you know was established by the time you got there. And then, the same thing coming back, you, I’d have, I’d be searching madly to get the signals eventually appearing and it’s marvellous when the, when they just started to appear on your radar screen, and you’d, and you’d get a proper fix, because when you tried astro navigation or even wireless, there were so many errors involved.
BW: Was your pilot good in terms of sticking to the course? Was he [unclear] following your instructions?
NH: Oh yes, of course, oh yes, oh yes, very good, you know, if I take an astro shot, they had to keep very steady because you have a steady platform to get, I don’t know if you know about sextant?
BW: Yes.
NH: You know, yes, getting the star dive into the bubble and holding it there, if the plane lurches up you’ve lost the, it, you’ve gotta get it back again,
BW: And so, you found that you worked quite well presumably [unclear]
NH: Oh, very well, with Houston, terrible memory for names, I even forget my own sometimes
BW: What was it like actually in the environment of a Halifax then, was it pretty roomy, has a reputation of being a fairly roomy aircraft.
NH: Not bad, not bad really
BW: [unclear]
NH: No, no, not when you compare it [unclear] like the Whitley
BW: And I believe the heating, say for example in a Lancaster kept the wireless operator and the navigator pretty warm
NH: yes
BW: Is it similar in a Halifax or not?
NH: Ah, yeah, pretty I was never cold, I never remember being cold,
BW: How did it feel in your flying kit? Was it [unclear]
NH: I didn’t wear much, had a Mae West on, and a parachute harness of course and that was, oh, and an aircrew sweater, and that was about it, don’t [unclear], I think flying boots, yes, yeah, flying boots, cause you could if you were, if you bailed out and you landed, you could cut the top off and they looked like ordinary shoes, ordinary boots
BW: And so you were pretty comfortable in the interior of the Halifax.
NH: Oh, pretty, reasonably comfortable.
BW:
NH: Yes, yes, I had a good desk and all the instruments that I needed. Wind thing, what you call, wind setting, forgot what they called, wind, don’t they use that much, you had to be [unclear] sort of view the sea at eighteen thousand feet, you can’t do that
BW: Did you find that you had to use oxygen much if you were above [unclear] feet or?
NH: Oh yes, about ten thousand feet, most certainly.
BW: Were most of your ops above that [unclear]?
NH: Oh yes, as soon as you get to, well pretty well from five thousand feet or even before, I can’t remember exactly but you certainly wouldn’t want to be [unclear] oxygen above ten thousand feet
BW: You noted as well one particular date you were in the air on the night of D-Day.
NH: Yes, yes.
BW: Do you recall the briefing for D-Day primarily?
NH: No
BW: Were you aware that is was gonna be the start of the invasion?
NH: Well, we were all suspicious but nobody knew anything definite but of course so much everybody knew that D-Day was gonna come soon but that anything definite not until we, well, we were, the target was an easy one on the Northern Coast of France, just inside, gun batteries of some sort, and we bombed that but as we are coming back, and as we are coming back near [unclear], both the gunners shouted out, all the shipping that they could see and so all this shipping was just on the invasion, that was June the 6th.
BW: What sort of time would that be, was it early morning?
NH: About three or four o’clock in the morning. It be in the logbook there. Be about that time.
BW: The gun battery that you mentioned, was it Mont Fleury,
NH: Right.
BW: And that was covering Gold Beach, which was one of the British invasion beaches.
NH: Yeah, yeah. Cause we did two or three, Montgomery, that was later on, after the armies had got established but got held up by the Germans and Montgomery requested Bomber Command to drop their bombs on the German, where the Germans were and we did that, we got a letter of thanks from him because that’s form where the armies could move on.
BW: Were you made aware of the results of the bombing on that particular D-Day mission?
NH: Not really, no, not until we got this letter from Montgomery thanking us for, yeah, I can’t think that we got any particular, no. Of course, we were taking photographs all the time, and we were given some sort of marking for the accuracy and the standard and that was posted up on the boards.
BW: Did it feel like a competition, where you
NH: A little bit like that, oh yes, a little bit like that. Bomb aimers, you know, we, in that book [unclear] claims that we were used for these targets because we had a bomb aiming accuracy record.
BW: Quite [unclear]
NH: No, but, I think that, what is, my God, the insignia of the squadron has got
US: An arrow
NH: A arrow, isn’t it? A bomb aiming accuracy or something is called.
US: Just called accuracy.
NH: Accuracy, yes, yes. So we had this supposedly reputation. I don’t know [laughs].
BW: Well, the gun position that was there at Gold Beach was actually a target given to the Green Howards, the army regiment that was to assault that.
NH: Oh, was that? Oh, was it?
BW: And that particular action was where sergeant major Stanley Hollis got the VC, [unclear] boxes near that battery. So coincidentally the raid that you were on happened to be the target which sergeant major Hollis was the only VC on D-Day.
NH: That’s interesting too. Yeah, yeah.
BW: There was only one [unclear] I can see on that raid and that was a Halifax flown by squadron leader Watson
NH: OH yes.
BW: Who was shot down
NH: yes.
BW: [unclear]
NH: I think I’ve seen the name but I don’t know him. No, no.
BW: So, at this time during April, May, June, most of your targets are in France
NH: Yes
BW: With the idea of supporting D-Day [unclear]
NH: Yeah, D-Day the invasion, yes, yes,
BW: And that continues
NH: [unclear] targets of course, by comparison with the Ruhr and Berlin
BW: And by easy that I assume that they were lighter, more lightly defended, is that right?
NH: Not so much that they’re but quicklier have a long, the big thing somewhere like Nuremberg or Berlin, even if you got to, you had a long trail back to UK and the German fighters knew that and would wait for the trail of bombers coming out of the target and shooting them out then but so and they had a long time to do it whereas going to somewhere Paris or somewhere like that, they didn’t have that length of time to do it.
BW: did you encounter many fighters that you [unclear]?
NH: No, I can’t remember, well, I think the most famous of course was the concentration, I did a daylight on the Ruhr in September and then you saw the concentration, what a concentration of bombers looked like cause we flew at night and we didn’t see how it really looked. But on this occasion we flew daylight to the Ruhr in September and I flew with a strange crew, which is slightly unsettling, their navigator had gone sick or something, and but then you saw aircraft colliding and of course you saw all the bombs dropping from other aircraft dropping so, you know, getting so close to releasing their bombs on you and the gunners would be shouting out, you know, he’s right over, he’s right over us now, and quite often it did happen that bombs from one aircraft hit another one, underneath.
BW: Did it happen on that occasion when you were?
NH: No, no, I never saw it actually happen,
BW: Just [unclear].
NH: No, I did, I did see aircraft, the other thing was collisions, when you got several hundred aircraft, well, at nighttime you don’t know what has happened, whether there’s a collision or whether they’re being shot by ack-ack, but at daylight you could see and I did see a collision, two aircraft hitting one another,
BW: And what, how could you describe what [unclear]?
NH: No, I can’t, we turned away and it was gone but didn’t see anybody come out.
BW: And so during [unclear]
NH: No explosion, that’s all.
BW: And so, during the raid on Stuttgart, during the daylight, could you see, did you get a chance to see clearly the formation? The bomber formation?
NH: Oh, not really, no, you know, of course you know that they are at night because you get into their slipstream, so you know and that’s what you want, of course you want to be close, you don’t want to be isolated that’s when they can pick you off, the whole object of flying in a gaggle or stream was to protect one another with your, what’s the stuff? Window and, you know, confuse the enemy defenses radar so you were conscious at nighttime, but you didn’t see the full horror of it.
BW: And what was your impression during the daylight raid?
NH: Well, I thought, how the hell can you get through that lot? Approaching the Ruhr, this is a lovely September afternoon and you could see the smoke hovering over the Ruhr from such a long way away, I got a feeling we could see it almost from the Dutch coast, and then you think, then of course within the smoke, which is just the puffs of smoke from the ack-ack, you could see the brusts of the showers, well, there’s no penetration, you cannot penetrate that lost, but looks, it probably looks worst than it really is.
BW: In each case your pilot kept on, there was no consideration of turning back [unclear] target?
NH: Oh no, no, but no, no, we were, I think we were pretty that way, we did what we had to do, and although it is nerve-racking when the bomb aimer is insistent on, you know, my God, why doesn’t he press the bloody button? It was he said, bomb’s gone, yeah, that we could turn away.
BW: Were there any occasions where you had to make a second run over the target or not?
NH: Not exactly the, I ‘m not quite sure but I do know that we’ve been approaching the target and we’ve been told to hold off, the Pathfinder, the master bomber is directing us from underneath, usually in something like a Mosquito and he is calling us by our codename whatever, main force, main force, whatever the code, and he said and he’d be telling us, the bomb, overshoot the red TI’s or bomb the green markers or in one case he couldn’t tell because of the smoke and he couldn’t get accurate and he told the whole force to orbit, that was a nasty experience too,
BW: And the whole force at this stage [unclear]
NH: Would have to turn and wait and come in again until he could give the instructions on which markers to attack, they were of course people like, who has got the VC?
BW: Cheshire?
NH: Cheshire, yeah. Incredible people they were. They would stay, I mean, they would stay on the target for the whole time, going round and round, giving the directions to the main force, and asking for new TI’s or something like that if he wanted it.
BW: So, moving on from the D-Day operations, the squadron was then tasked with hitting the V-Weapon sites
NH: Yes, we, those were fairly easy targets, just inside the Dutch and French coast, yeah. We [unclear] several of those, three or four of those.
BW: Do you recall much about what was explained to you about the targets, we know now that they were being [unclear], did you know that?
NH: I don’t think so, I can’t remember, no, I just know that they were, well eventually of course when the flying bombs came up cause they came up, they came off fairly earlier, in was about August wasn’t it? July, August? Well, after, well then we knew them, that sort, they were that sort of targets, not until they, they’d actually arrived.
BW: So, from there through July and August, I think in total you flew thirty-nine operations, right?
NH: Thirty-nine altogether, yes. And of course the normal operation, prior to that., had ben thirty but because we were getting these easy French targets, they made us do thirty nine. And I, when they did say you’re finished, I was quite surprised, I’d thought they’d keep me I wasn’t all that bothered, I was getting used to it and it think sorry there won’t be an end you just carry on to the end and I accepted that I think.
BW: So you would have gone on for the duration of the war.
NH: Yes, I was slightly surprised when they said, you can stop and get.
BW: And what happened at that point, how was it explained to you your tour would end? What happened [unclear]?
NH: No explanation, I was just told that I would be posted on a certain day to in this case to Marston Moor as an instructor. But of course before that I’d been commissioned, Jock Houston and myself both got commissioned and we both got and then shortly after that we both got DFCs. Oh, we got that after I left the squadron, we got them afterwards, we were commissioned before we left the squadron, about a month or so before and then we got the DFC about a month or so after we left the squadron.
BW: And did you go to the palace to receive the DCF [unclear]?
NH: No, it came in the post, it came in the post with a letter from King George, signed by King George and that was stolen, we had a burglary and some bastard stole it, including the letter which was in some respect more important than the DFC. I got the DFC changed
BW: And that was soon after, that was soon after you’d been awarded it, it happened or was it
NH: No, no, it happened, oh, about twenty years ago.
BW: So still, right, still, as recently as that.
NH: Yeah, but we were in Muscat in Oman and this burglary happened whilst we were away.
BW: But you managed to get a replacement for
NH: I got a replacement, yes, they charged me a hundred pounds for it but it’s not quite the same cause I haven’t got the letter from King George.
BW: A shame. And so how was your relationship at this point with your girlfriend, cause you’ve been on pos, a pretty intense period through [unclear].
NH: Oh, well, every, you see, I suppose, in some respects I missed out a bit, I was very friendly with Jock but the other I, I went and had a beer occasionally with them but I was so eager, I was so wrapped up with Dorothy that every opportunity, I just speared off into York and I didn’t spend much time on the squadron but I, I used to take my inflight rations, because we got chocolate and chewing gum and other things and I couldn’t eat them, I was too frightened to eat them, and so I’d take them into York ands give them to her, I ran up to her office, which is on the fourth story of the LNER headquarters building in York and bang on her door and give her my inflight rations, sweets and chocolate mostly cause these things were rationed at that time.
BW: And that must have made your visits special for her.
NH: Yeah [laughs].
BW: [unclear]
NH: Yeah. Well if I wasn’t flying that night, I’d rush into York and rush up and tell her I’d be there and wait for, meet her after she left work.
BW: At what stage during the day would you find out whether or not you were on ops or not?
NH: Well, usually in the morning, you round about, just round about midday as I remember you’d know whether you’d go and operate that night or not. I do remember one occasion when we, we thought we were going to operate and that was when the flight engineer we’d, it was in June cause its, the nights were brighter, I think we were due for a take-off about ten o’clock and it was getting dusk and as usual everything goes very quiet, you wait for the start-up pistol and all engines would then start revving up, start the engines up and revving up, make a crescendo of noise of course when you’ve got sixteen or eighteen four-engines, all going and on this occasion there is always a little pause, you see you check your aircraft, you check everything and then you sort of hang around for a few minutes, I was there waiting for the [unclear] pistol, signal to get in and start up and on this occasion the flight engineer, we’d done about fourteen trips, he said, I’m not going tonight, and he wouldn’t, he said he wasn’t going, so of course the tower had to be informed that we weren’t, we had a crew deficiency and everybody came out then, the CO and the flight engineer leader and the medical officer and they took him to the rear engine to talk to him and took him off and we thought, well, by this time all the other aircraft had started up and are travelling round the peri-track looking at us curiously wondering what, why we hadn’t started up and we are waving them to say, well, clear off, we’re not going but then the engineer nearly came rushing out saying I’m [unclear] [laughs] so we had a start-up and all we did like that.
BW: So you then got, were you having to get back in the aircraft at this point?
NH: Oh, of course, yes. And off we had to go but then we were Tail End Charlies and that’s another thing you don’t like you don’t wanna be amongst the gaggle.
BW: And so you, how did you feel being at the back of the bomber stream then?
NH: Well, I suppose we must have made it up, you know, put a bit [laughs] more throttle on and we, I think we reached them in the end because what you do, you assemble at same point or something like that, that’s the usual thing, the squadrons all take off from the various aerodromes, say in Yorkshire and Spurn Point was a favorite assembly point and you’d set off from there, which there is no formation, you just keep in the stream, and so of course by the time the assembly had taken place and they had set off, we were catching up.
BW: How did you feel during the flight having had [unclear]?
NH: I didn’t like it, I didn’t like it [laughs] I [unclear] much more nervous, well, I’ve always felt nervous but felt a lot more nervous that night and that’s a clear memory of one flight I do have, yeah.
BW: You mention that just feeling nervous and feeling that you could have your inflight rations when you were airborne, you managed to overcome that, did you [unclear].
NH: [unclear] do it, no, chewing gum, I had the chewing gum but didn’t need anything else, coffee, I’d have, I’d drink the coffee and eat and the chewing gum but I was too frightened to eat anything else [laughs]. I waited for my eggs and bacon, egg and chips like got back.
BW: Did you recall the rest of the crew felt in a similar way?
NH: I think they felt similar, fairly similar, yeah, I think so, I think we all felt pretty much the same.
BW: Did you ever talk about it?
NH: No, no, that’s a strange thing, it’s only in the last few years that I’ve ever talked about it, Dorothy never wanted me to hear me talk about it and I never did, I never thought about it and it’s only sort of more or less than she died that I’ve given it any thought.
BW: And at the time did you talk to your crew mates or did they tell you how it felt on the operations night?
NH: No, never talked about it, never, never, no, it’s a, I look back a lot of it and I think, this is a bit strange really cause I think about it a lot now and talk about it quite a bit but for thirty or forty years never thought about it, hardly, hardly, [unclear].
BW: And how does it feel now, reflecting back on that time?
NH: Well, it’s a different time, you know, it’s something which I didn’t, something which is very different to anything, but you know it’s an experience which you’d never imagined that you’d go through really.
BW: And you mentioned now at this stage of your career that you’d come off operations, you were then posted to Marston Moor as instructor.
NH: That’s right, yes, for six months, six months tour and then we got married in June and when I came back from my honeymoon, I was told I was posted back onto operations to go with Tiger Force against Japan.
BW: And is this June ’45?
NH: This is June ’45, the war, the European war had ended and that ended in May, was it May? Yeah, is it.
BW: That’s right.
NH: Yeah and I’ve finished my six months rest and so I was posted back onto a second tour which happened to be with, what I called the force?
BW: Tiger Force.
NH: Sorry?
US: Tiger.
NH: Tiger Force, with Tiger Force. Yes, [unclear] to, and we were going to do something similar to what we did against Germany. That was, but that was on Lincolns, was it Lancasters or Lincolns? Wasn’t Halifaxes? Either Lancasters or Lincolns, I got the feeling it was Lincolns. Cause then after the war I flew in, I was on 50 Squadron which was at Waddington.
BW: At Waddington.
NH: Yeah, that was after the war, that was in 1950, talking about 1947, ’48, no, ’48.
BW: So you were earmarked to go with Tiger Force out to the Far East
NH: Yeah. We did
BW: Did that happen?
NH: yeah. No, no, we did our training and we didn’t have to do much, it was, you know, becoming acquainted, with a slightly new aircraft and we were all experienced people, all done our tour of ops, all being instructors so we are a very experienced crew we did, we just did a little bit of familiarization and we are ready to go and then they dropped the atom bomb so we didn’t go and we all got split up then.
BW: So you were all prepared to go and then you continued your post first to a training as a crew
NH: Yes
BW: Together and I guess you were all I guess earmarked at the same to go to the Far East but
NH: Yeah
BW: But you said it didn’t happen
NH: No, and we would have gone of course if they hadn’t dropped the atom bombs.
BW: And so, just talk us through your subsequent career which I believe involved transport command, fighter command
NH: Well of course [unclear] lot of funny little jobs like on a recruiting center and I was eventually had a sort of a career posting as an instructor at the RAF [unclear] at Cosford which was, if I’d played my cards right, would have done me some good, but I didn’t, I volunteered for flying, I have tried to go back on flying and they posted me back on transport command, but then Dorothy was expecting her babies and after a while I asked much to their irritation I think and it never did me any good, they posted me back to Bomber Command.
BW: And where did you get posted to?
NH: To, well, first of all I did a conversion, I became a navigator, bomb aimer, I did a bomb aiming course at Lindholme, near Doncaster and then from there I was posted to 50 Squadron at Waddington and that was when Dorothy had her babies, twins, and we all moved into quarters at Waddington and I became adjutant to 50 Squadron and my Co’s a man named Peach and that was a most enjoyable experience, I really enjoyed that time, we flew Lincolns.
BW: I was going to ask actually because at this time Jet aircraft are becoming more widely [unclear].
NH: [unclear] was just coming into service, yes, in Bomber Command.
BW: Did you get a chance to fly in it?
NH: No, I didn’t. No, no.
BW: And so what happened after that, were you involved at all in the Berlin airlift for example or not?
NH: No, because, as I say, I would have been if I stayed on transport command, that’s where I didn’t do myself any good by asking for this, but I didn’t know that Berlin airlift, I would have I wish I could have done that now but I got this request answered and was posted to 50 to Bomber Command but I made a mistake though.
BW: And at what stage did you become flight controller?
NH: Well, this is a, from Waddington I was posted to Scampton as an instructor, again I wish I’d protested and I and stayed on longer but I, we were posted to Scampton, as an instructor and then I hadn’t been offered a permanent commission but they did offer me a restricted permanent commission but it had to be either in the air traffic control branch or the fighter control branch, so I chose the fighter control branch, I wish I, somehow I wish I could afford that more and stay, and let me stay on aircrew and I think I’d have prospered more so then I, I did the course on fighter control and yeah that’s and from there I was posted to Patrington, how do we call those units? Fighter control unit.
BW: And this was at Patrington?
NH: Patrington, yeah.
BW: Patrington.
NH: In East Yorkshire.
BW: Ok.
NH: And then I went from, from there I became training officer and that was a nice post I became training officer to the Hull fighter control unit, [unclear] unit, based at Sutton, that was most enjoyable.
BW: What did you like about it?
NH: Well, I was my own boss, I was both adjutant for a long while, was adjutant and training officer, I had the use of the staff car, say I was my own boss, we had a nice house in Withernsea, no, not in Withernsea, in
US: Wasn’t Cottingham?
NH: Cottingham. In Cottingham, yeah. Nice house in Cottingham, we had some pleasant friends in the village and that was a most enjoyable time, I was very, I became very popular with the people, with the auxiliary people who were of course all civilians but I enjoyed their company I got on well with them so that was quite a nice [unclear], from there so I did a full tour there and then we were posted to Germany doing, well doing an operational job, you know, fighter control unit first of all at [unclear] and then at [unclear].
BW: And that I suppose saw you through to, through the Sixties and
NH: Yeah, and right up until
BW: The Seventies
NH: Yes, I did a year in Borneo on my own and joined the confrontation, nobody knows about that, do they? When we fought the Indonesians I’d, of course that was a year what they called an unaccompanied tour, we were based on a little island called Labuan on the north coast of Borneo, which is enjoyable up to a point but I didn’t like being separated all that time from the family.
BW: What sort of things were you doing out there?
NH: Oh well, the Indonesians were trying to control the whole of Borneo and they were claiming it but we said no, the northern part, including, what’s the oil rich place? Begins with a b. Brunei. Kuching and, that’s Kalimantan and then, we said, no, that all belongs to Malaysia, Malaysian federation which at that time includes Singapore but the Indonesians wanted the whole of Borneo as part of the Indonesia so we said, no, you can’t have it, this is all, so we had a four year war, we didn’t call it a war, we called it a confrontation.
BW: Is this the Malaysian insurgency?
NH: Yeah. Yeah, well, it is an insurgency, but of course Singapore was part of it and Malaysia so we eventually Indonesia gave up and accepted the status quo as we said it should be and we had Javelins at that time so we were controlling Javelins along the border, which was way undefined, you couldn’t and of course we had Gurkas out there and Indonesians were scared stiff of them and it was good jungle warfare, very good for anybody who wanted an army career it was ideal training, not too many casualties, a couple of hundred or so were killed, but we had, but we have radar jamming, Lincolns, not Lincolns, Hastings, we had Hastings out there doing our radar jamming and we controlled the Javelins, we had our Javelins which would come onto the island and jet airborne wherever we saw anything that might be a useful target. So I commanded that little unit, I had about sixty or seventy men and all radar equipment, that sort of little encampment of my own, was quite nice and six officers, and seventy men and we had a marvelous time, laughed like anything, all the time, oh yeah, drank a lot, we drank the hell of a lot. Dorothy never stopped saying how shocked she was [laughs] [unclear].
BW: And so after late Fifties through the Sixties
NH: Yes, that’s the Mid Sixties, the confrontation finished in ’66, well, that’s when I came back, I came back in June ’66, and the confrontation stopped just after that and then I came back to, oh, Scotland again, to, up to Buchan, is it Buchan?
US: Peterhead, yeah.
NH: Peterhead, yeah. Peter, yeah, Peterhead, Buchan. Onto a, well, there we are looking at, we are looking after, looking at Russian aircraft, that was the interesting part there was watching for the Bisons and what not coming out of the Russian bases up at, you know, beyond.
BW: Beyond Murmansk and.
NH: Beyond Murmansk, yeah. They’d come out into the Atlantic, they’d be picked up by the Norwegian radar and we would [unclear] them then to come down between the Iceland gap and the
BW: Faroe islands.
NH: Faroe islands, Shetlands, my memory is terrible, anyway we were waiting for them to come through, past the Iceland gap and they’d go out into the Atlantic while we had a flight of, what were they in those days, not the Javelins, what was after the Javelins? Hunters, Hunters? What were the ones before the Lightning? No, it was the Lightnings, the Lightnings, of course it was. Yeah, the Lightnings, we had Lightnings up at Kinloss, or Lossiemouth? Lossiemouth, they were up there on the and the Americans had Phantoms in Iceland so we would scramble when we, as soon as we saw these coming, being handed over, they were handed over to us by the Norwegians, we probably couldn’t see them then but then when we knew they were there and eventually they would appear on our radar and certain time after that we would scramble the fighters from Lossiemouth and the Phantoms from Reykjavik and at first the Lightnings didn’t have the range to get to them and very frustratingly they would turn back because of lack of fuel, the Phantoms would come on and make the interception and then come onto Scotland and land, but then when the Lightning Mark VI came in, we could make the interception properly and return. But that was quite interesting for a while because we also had radar up on top of the Faroes, right on top, no, not the Faroes, the Shetlands, right up on the top island, Saxa Vord, that’s, there’s a radar station up there, so there, that was a bit of an interest and then I was finally posted back to Germany and that, did my final tour in Germany on a NATO, on a NATO post. We had a German commandant then, Brigadier, German, he was, by that time the Germans had bene reconstituted but we had control of the fighter element, the Germans weren’t allowed to control, we were [unclear] of course for, to intercept the Russians in case there was any sort of attack but we had, but they had to have RAF controllers out there, the Germans, under all their constitutional rules weren’t allowed to do this so although they provided all the manning for it, we did the actual operating of the stand-by fighters, what did we have then? Lightnings, did we? Lightnings, yes, Lightnings, and they were at places like Laarbruch, Bruggen and somewhere else, there were three, Gutersloh, yes, we had the triangle of those three and then of course Monchengladbach.
BW: And so
NH: So I finished my tour there and made a lot of good friends, [unclear] we were Germans, Dutch, British and that very pleasant finished my career really, made some good friends who stayed friends right up till now, those who survived, even the Germans, the German commandant of the German regiment, he became, I still talk to him every week on the telephone [laughs]
BW: And so
NH: Oberst Wolfgang Ostermar
BW: Wolfgang Ostermar
NH: Wolfgang, yeah, we went on holidays together, became very close, you know.
BW: And is he a similar age to you?
NH: A year younger.
BW: So he’d been around the year, presumably in opposing forces when you [unclear]
NH: He was, he was, and he was taken prisoner by the Americans.
BW: Really? Did
NH: But he’s an Anglophile, speaks excellent English, same as his wife does. Did his training, of course he became a fighter controller but trained by us in Britain.
BW: Do you recall briefly what his wartime service was? Was he a pilot or a gunner or [unclear]?
NH: No, he was ground staff.
BW: Right. So there was no chance of him being
NH: When we’d been on holiday together, people made romantic conclusions, you know, a German and a British exile, sorry, good friends,
BW: But it wasn’t
NH: Not like that, no.
BW: And so you left the RAF and NATO
NH: Yeah.
BW: What was your civilian career, what did you, did you [unclear]?
NH: I enjoyed the last couple of years, I did a correspondence course which is organized by the service, my [unclear], what did I do?
US: Agency and business studies.
NH: Agency and business studies, that’s right, yes, and it was such an easy posting in Germany I was able to do this with a lot of enjoyment and I thought, well, I can go in human relations or something like that, I’m made for that and it meant a two week course in a [unclear] to start with, then about eighteen months correspondence, finishing up the six weeks again at Chelsea and we happened to be in the Chelsea barracks near the Chelsea officer’s mess but we were told, the Chelsea officer’s, the guards officers not the, not any ordinary mess it’s the guards officer’s mess and we were told very strictly we were not, we may be officers but we were not entitled to go into the guards officer’s mess [laughs].
BW: You mentioned before we started the interview you were security on the ton air project
NH: Well I, having got the H&C, I wrote lots and lots of letters people offering my services and I got reasonable replies from quite a number and I was offered several jobs, I eventually left the air force in November 1970 and I came up here, [unclear] they seemed puzzled as I, I wanted to come up here, why do you want to come up here then? [laughs] because I suppose hopefully you are going to offer me a job. So, they did in fact, I became assistant to the chief designer, they offered me two jobs actually, they offered me a job on Tornado cockpit which was still on the drawing board, I could have either be that job or be assistant to the chief designer, so I said, I’m not qualified to cock pit design work, so I think I better take the other one so I did that, which was quite a nice job, I learned a tremendous amount cause I worked in the main drawing office with him and got to know all the chaps and what they were doing and of course I say the Tornado was still on the drawing board it goes now in production but that was still very much a live product. And so I got to learn in eighteen months so I did that [unclear], I learned a lot and then the chap who is the chief security officer was an ex wing commander and I had, and he still, I want, I want to retire very soon, do you want to take my job over? So, that’s promotion anyway, so I did, I took, George Kennedy, wing commander George, he’d been an ex apprentice like me, but much earlier, and when he, well, I went and joined him as his assistant, first of all about eighteen months, two years, and then took over completely when he retired and that really was a splendid job because the Tornado was still not flying but it was full of classified information and working with the Germans and the Italians, our own Ministry of Defenses and who of course were very hard on us if we gave any information away it was all very and of course the Cold War was on, you know, and Munich we had plenty of Cold War suspects and [unclear] around Munich, eager to get hold of the information about the Tornado.
BW: And so, you were very limited about what you could and couldn’t say at the time.
NH: Oh yes, very much, yes, but it’s very, eventually I did get hold of because these technical people and engineers [unclear], the last thing they wanted to know was about is security, they want to show off their knowledge and they want to write papers and get their names noticed and things like that their ego, you know publicity, whereas we of course, the security side, wanted to restrict it, well, not because we ourselves wanted it, the Ministry of Defense, they provided the contracts and if we broke the rules, they would start threatening that there would be a loss of contract work. So that’s I, I managed to, because I had experience in aircraft all, you know, I think I was able to work all the people like flight test engineers, the flight crews, the [unclear] like Paul Millet, who is the chief test pilot at the time but he took over from, oh, famous wartime pilot, forgot the, I’ll get it in a minute, anyway I had a good time because I got on well with these people.
BW: And so, looking back at your career and the association you have with Bomber Command, how does it feel now looking back?
NH: Well, occupies my thoughts continuously cause I’m on my own now, I’ve been on my own for nearly elven years, it occupies a tremendous amount of time, I can’t read but I do have listening books which I enjoy and music but otherwise I, I have to use my own thoughts to pass the time and I do it a lot.
BW: And have you been able to keep in touch with progress in terms of the memorials to Bomber Command, how do you feel about the tributes and memorials that have been paid these days?
NH: Well, I love it and Dorothy and I went once to St Paul’s, that would be about, oh, about the year 2000, and I can’t even remember what it was for, is for, I know the chap who was the, oh gracious me, trying to remember, he was head of the air force, and he was also president of Bomber Command.
BW: The name that speaks to my mind are Paul Enteder.
NH: No, long after him, no, long after them.
BW: I see.
NH: He’s about my age.
BW: I see.
NH: Oh Gosh, anyway, we did go to this ceremony at St Paul’s cathedral, it be about three or four years before she died so, be about 2000 or something like that, we had a Lancaster flying over York, we all came out of the service and assembled on the steps, but what was the question?
BW: Have you been to Hyde Park memorial [unclear]?
NH: No, I’d like to, near the Green Park one, you mean?
BW:
NH: No, I haven’t, but I know of it and I and Tony Iveson , who was, this is how I did have a connection with, because he was in 4 Group the time as I was, and he led all the staff to make the memorial, he was on, I heard him on Desert island Discs, he’s dead now, but I couldn’t see it if I went I couldn’t see it.
BW: yeah.
NH: I used to, well, I am a member of the IMF club still but I haven’t’ ben there for three or four years.
BW: How do you, what are your thoughts about the memorial center that’s been set up in Lincoln, the International Bomber Command Center?
NH: I don’t know anything about it.
BW: They have now unveiled the memorial spire and the walls which have the names of all the fifty five thousand and something aircrew who were lost during the war and they are now building, or going to start building the Chadwick Center which will house documents, artifacts, there will be audio recordings as well such as this one, the digital
NH:
BW: That will be in the memorial center in Lincoln
NH: Is that a new purpose build
BW: It’s just outside, it’s on one of the hills outside of Lincoln.
NH: Oh! When is it going to be opened?
BW: The center should be opened later this year
NH: There will be a lot of publicity attached to that one. Pretty sure I can’t see much.
BW: I just wondered whether you’d be informed of it and today
NH: I haven’t been informed of it, I’d like to know about it but I can’t do, I can’t see it, so , you know, provided, I hope I shall hear about it.
BW: Well, I can post the details out to you and the information
NH: Right, yes,
BW: You know
NH: I’d like that. Because if I can’t read, Anthony can read it out to me.
BW: Yeah. So
NH: But I’m restricted in movement and everything else now, I don’t really want to go anywhere.
BW: I see. The, there aren’t any other questions that I have for you, are there any other particular recollections that may have come to mind you wish to talk about or else, anything else I may have missed?
NH: I’m sure there will be when you’re gone [laughs], I can’t, I think, oh, I’ve surprised myself [unclear]
BW: Well, it’s been very interesting to talk to you, you’ve given an awful lot of information
NH: Is it?
BW: [unclear] very happy with that.
NH: [unclear], I seen, I’m very happy with that. That’ll give me a better pleasure anyway.
BW: Thank you very much for your time.
NH: Ok.
BW: [unclear] Thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Neil Harris
Creator
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Brian Wright
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-01-28
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisNG160128
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:53:47 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Neil Harris wanted to join the RAF because he was looking for an exciting life experience and an opportunity for further education. He started as a flight mechanic before training as a pilot. Remembers being trained in different locations across the country, from Brighton to Kinloss, in Scotland. Mentions a particular night, when they took off late and had to catch up with the bomber stream. Flew with 48 and 578 Squadron. Shares his memories of D-Day, when he was targeting a gun battery in Northern France. Remembers his life after the war, when he was sent to Indonesia in the 60s during the Borneo confrontation.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Nuremberg
Scotland--Wick
France
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
50 Squadron
578 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Cross
fitter airframe
Gee
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Hudson
Lincoln
love and romance
Master Bomber
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Operational Training Unit
pilot
promotion
RAF Burn
RAF Halton
RAF Kinloss
RAF Marston Moor
RAF Rufforth
RAF Waddington
Tiger force
training
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/855/10860/AHanksJ160622.2.mp3
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Title
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Hanks, John
J Hanks
Description
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An oral history interview with John Hanks (b.1922, 1453357 Royal Air Force). He served as an armourer and was posted to the Shetlands.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-06-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Hanks, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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IB: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive. The interviewer is Ian Boole and the interviewee is Mr John Hanks. Thank you for telling your story today John. Also present is Rita May, Mr Hanks’ daughter. And the interview is taking place at Mr. Hanks’s home in Potterhanworth in Lincoln on the 22nd of June 2016, at approximately 2.20 pm. Over to you, John.
JH: Yeah. Well, I can also answer any questions you like to ask me. Be the best way. Or do you want me to go through the whole?
IB: If you’d like to start with you preservice and your early days.
JH: Yeah, what before this.
IB: before the war.
JH: Well just, yeah, my father, biological father is not here now, he served in the First World War in India. I was born in 1922, poor family obviously and grew up in Battersea, London, left school at fourteen, ordinary elementary school, went to work, 1936 I started work, I was fourteen then and time presses on, 1937 comes round, ‘38 and the signs of war, Mr, what’s his name, went across with a piece of paper?
IB: Chamberlain.
JH: Chamberlain, Mr Chamberlain comes up with a bit of paper, peace in our time, [unclear] when you think about it, we weren’t ready, so 1938 passes, breathe a sigh of relief, thank God for that, no war but 1939, what happens? It happens, Hitler walks into Czechoslovakia we start war, so [unclear] onwards I’m still living in Battersea, London, my mates join the LDV, which became the Home Guard, we guarded bridges, Battersea bridges, things like that and then we had the Blitz start, but I lived through the whole of the Blitz, from beginning to the very end, night after night after night, it’s unbelievable, youngsters said, I can’t imagine what it would be like to live and try to sleep under noise of aircraft, guns and bombs coming down, unbelievable, I can hardly believe it myself today now but we survived. 1941 I decide I’ve got to go up, I’m gonna be called up anyway and I want to go into the Royal Air Force, I like mechanical, I liked things like that so I joined the Royal Air Force, go down to Croydon, there are offices there to join up, asked a few questions, no, I‘m not very good at maths, and when the officer asked me how often, add a half and a third together, I just [unclear] together [unclear] so he said to me, well, he said, I’ll put you down for ACAGD but I didn’t know what it was, aircraft and general duty so that’s it and waited to get called up, sent to [unclear], sent down to Penrhos in South Wales, got down there, kitted out, you know, [unclear] then sent over to Weston-super-Mare and that’s where we started the basic training, marching up and down, sleuthing to the front and the right and all this, anyway, put on guard at the, you know, new pier down there, given a rifle, no ammunition, no, might have hurt somebody [laughs] but we got a rifle anyway and we put down there we were told, you know [unclear] anybody, it goes there and that you know, anyway and from there passed out the end of the training, sent up to Edinburgh, which was [unclear] at the time, I forget what squadron was there, I think it was, I’m not sure, a fighter squadrons up there because the Germans were coming in sometimes up the, you know, the, I forget the river now, what’s the river, where Edinburgh runs, I forget the river now, anyway, they would come up there and attack, you know, go back and I’m put on, looking after the air crew, cause some of the air crew, French pilots learning to take off and landing on aircraft carriers, you know, and on air the best [unclear] in case is a crash and the pilots burning so it [unclear] and it worries me and I’ll tell this I was and I don’t think I gotta tell you and [unclear] and so he says, oh, so [unclear] to get me posted so I get posted up to Shetland islands where I am up at Sullom Voe on PBY Catalinas which is American aircraft and that’s where we, you know, doing their work from there, and I get interested in armoury so I’m put in the armoury section, helping armourers doing fiddly jobs and interesting, so I decide I’ll remuster, see if I can remuster to armourer I [unclear] for, you know, remustering, I’m accepted and I sit down to create a new letter for on an armourer’s course and there I was down there knowing all about every armour under the sun, weapons, all kind of weapons, hydraulics, turrets, the lot, I passed out as AC1 so I’ve covered AC2 now to AC1, that’s not bad, and I was posted to Swinderby in Lincoln here with 1660, HBCU which is heavy Bomber Command unit, so I’m posted there, what we’re doing there, we are training crews in [unclear] to work in Lancasters or Halifaxes so if we got Halifaxes there and we got, so when I get there we got Halifaxes, we only got the Lancasters so on there armourer I’m shown me jobs, another armourer tells me what I have to do each day so I learn that, so every day I will have to go out in the morning to make aircraft dedicated to me and I will have to check every armour, that’s the ammunition, the 303 Brownings, the turret system, the hydraulics, the power technics, everything, any can [unclear], the carrier, the bomb carriers, the lot, so I have to do that every day and then I’d have to sign form seven hundred, I will sign a form seven hundred in my trade, all the other trades are, you know, you will be a mechanic, you would have to sign, electrician they also signed it, the last one to sign would be the captain the aircraft, he is satisfied, he signed it, now that aircraft is fit to fly, that’s the last what I would do and that would be, and that would have left us there to the next job, next aircraft or in between flights inspection just to check everything is going ok and that’s what I would have to do as an armourer and then of course, I think, after being there for a while, they sent me down to Waddington here and I got a feeling, they at the beginning of the war, they were trying to, they were using armourers as air gunners because you had no better gunner than an armourer who knew all about, if a [unclear] dropped a gun, you knew how to clear it, an ordinary gunner who wasn’t an armourer might be, what I do now? So I think it was trying to do the same with me, when we went to Waddington, they would put us on a, into a sort of an imitation turret where you would fire at imitation aircraft flying but that’s all that and there and it came up when I was sent to East Kirkby, where I was attached to 57 and 630 Squadron and there we were bombing up, you know, proper because Swinderby, the only bombing I have done at Swinderby was putting practice bombs up, dynamite bombing would be a bomb which would just be smoked when it came up, if you were bombing at night, it would be a flash bomb, a flash grenade and eight pounders it was all putting up but when we went to, when I went to East Kirkby, we was bombing up for real, we was bombing up on the cookies, that’s the four thousand pounder, o might be an eight thousand pounder and I haven’t put up a twelve thousand pounder, I think I put up an eight thousand pounder but I most certainly put up plenty of four thousand pounders, they called them cookie, and of course you put a cookie up and you put rows of five hundred or two fifty pound bombs except at one day we was putting up a cookie and canisters of incendiaries [unclear] and the incendiaries is a big can, inside the can is about, I think about fourteen incendiaries, they all fit in place, they are octagonal put together but each one keeps the [unclear] out, you in and then there’s a cross by that comes across now when they drop them, the bomb aimer selects the drop bars, the drop bars fall away and all the incendiaries come out, when they go out, they’re alive and I’m up in front position and I, we put these canisters up and I’m up at the very top so I’ve got to come all down to the bomb armourer below, ok, is on? Wind it up, very slowly up cause the can of incendiaries to top position, now it’s clear so I released but the thing was the cable wasn’t in and all canisters went straight away down, right across the bomb trolley and bent it all up but not one drop bar fell out so luckily saved the situation [laughs] but I sweat a bit [laughs] but that’s about the only incident I can ever remember that happened to me. It’s, we use to have a bit of a fun when we used to have to, when we bombed up it seemed to be, the bombs would come up, fill up with petrol or whatever, the bomb, we would come out, bomber, I guarantee you every time we finished, change loads, change loads and he comes down, petrol [unclear] comes up, for several reasons I can understand is the enemy couldn’t work out the distance when we were going or the amount of fuel it was carrying, if the, you know, found out, he was put in so many gallons of fuel in, it would give some idea of where that plane, they would gonna go. And I think that was the idea, why they changed loads the last minute to, you know, and that’s what we but coming back to Swinderby we were there, they were training, training crew, they were trained in take-off and landing so circuits and bumps we called them, diversions, now the diversions as far as I know, HBCU, 166 HBCU would form up with other HBCU [unclear], 54 and they would form up in a big [unclear] of aircraft and they would take-off and away, the point was the enemy would get the guess, they’re gonna make a raid over there but they won’t, they might as well go over there, so we were diverted, it was diversion so once again, the enemy was getting [unclear] and that’s part of the job of 1660, so that’s about all as much I can tell you of 1660 anyway [laughs] but is there anything else, you know, can I tell you?
IB: How was your relationship with the aircrew, you come in contact with them [unclear]?
JH: Yeah, very, well, sometimes I’d have to go out there and I want, I can’t check the turrets cause hydraulic system, I can’t check the turrets without the engines running, the engines are gonna work to get the pumps pushing the fuel for you through, you know, so the hydraulics worked, then once I run the engines, certain engines for the front or rear or mid upper, run the engines up and get in, and check them, make sure the guns were elevate and depressed and the turret would go around cause we are using a Frazer-Nash turret, it was the best turret I’ve ever come across, two grips like this, you go like that and when you are on the turret, [unclear] you know, it was a very good turret, but all oil, oil you know, and that was the best, the other turret I worked on was the in the Halifax, I forget the name of it but it had a central control like this and it wasn’t very good, you know, wasn’t so good as, you know, it was so easy and but yes alright, I get the aircrew to run the engine, they were all good lads, we were all lads together, you know, there was no quibbling, I mean, I’ve been down in Lincoln and one of the officers sitting in the bus, pat me on the back, oh God, he said, now the drink we get in town, it was just like that, you know, and I’m a young lad, he’s an officer and he’s talking to me, I’m so [unclear] [laughs] but yeah, the comradeship, that was [unclear] about the services and the army the same I suppose, but in the Royal Air Force the comradeship was unbelievable, I mean, I went down to Metheringham in, I think it was number 9 Squadron, used to be down, I’m not sure now and al goes in it and the curator in this museum he’s in it and he says, you know, this be about, he showed this bit about a DVD about armourer, you know, yeah, I’m talking to him so, you know, as I said, you know, what rank were you? Oh yeah, I thought, he would say, you know, I was sergeant, flight sergeant, oh, he says, I was group captain, I said, you know what? I said, it’s the first time in my life without standing attention to salute you, of course, he says, sir [laughs] I said, I was in the [unclear], he said, you do a good job, he said, it was stranger when he said that, you know, and he said, group captain, [unclear] [laughs], you know yourself, ay? Group captain, oh dear, oh dear, that’s what I liked about the Christmas time, during New Years’ time down at Swinderby, in the Christmas time all yerks, we all sit down and the officers are coming round, I suppose you know it, and they serve you and you know, and he’s great, you can chat but you know it’s still officers and I remember on New Year’s Eve, be [unclear] on the naffy, we were all in there and the CO comes in as well and the adjutant and all you know, all the big nobs, they are all joining hands, you know, the Auld Lang Syne, is good fun, yeah, is all, great it was, anyway so we all go back to the bed that night, yeah, so we are getting in bed and while we are in bed, we are asleep, and the signal starts, action stations parachute, action stations parachute, bloody hell, out of bed! We had to get out of bed quick, dressed, downstairs, grab a rifle, get outside, on parade, get in the truck, taken out to the airfield, they take us out the airfield, good God, got standing, gotta guard the aircraft I’m standing there, get captured by the army, it’s a trial, the army come in they captured us [laughs] but it was just to show you right if it was, you know, but the army took part in it and it was good though but at the time you didn’t know when you heard this tannoy system going action stations parachute, oh dear, oh dear, [unclear] but oh yeah, lovely, we’ll [unclear]
IB: When you arming the aircraft, what sort of conditions were you working under, as regards thinks the weather conditions and the time that you had to turn round [unclear] to get [unclear] and back?
JH: Well, you see, I spent a lot of time at Swinderby, which was a training centre really for aircrew, so, it wasn’t as operational, so we, we weren’t supposed tied down so much, I mean, if the gunner ops is got to be, they happened really time, no doubt, [unclear] go out every morning doing a DI and every tradesman go and do their part of the job, it sometimes it was a job to get the aircrew to run the engines for you, it was just one of those things but if the weather is bad, course you still had to do it, I mean, I had to go in aircraft and it’s really freezing cold and snowing and you had to get onto the tail end of the aircraft because the RSJ on the rear turret has got a leak, I had to go out and check it, of course that’s not my job so I report it to the fitters, you know, so the fitters come and do their job but you know, you still have to go out and do your job not matter what the weather was like, you know, even [unclear], you know, it just had to be done, clear, might have to go out and clear the [unclear], clear the snow off them another thing, get snowed up you gotta clear the snow off cause, I mean, even flying at night just the same, you were still training at night, day or night, flying, I mean, some of the nights I will be awake all night flying duties, I‘ll have to go out at six and go out there, wait there, wait till the aircraft took off, then I could lay down fall and get some sleep till they come back or come back for a leak or something, you know, which we had to go out and check and let’s see, I all day, the aircrew, luckily night flying duties I’d go to the mess and get a good supper you know normally you wouldn’t laugh but I mean when we had an ordinary and supper at the mess I mean you wouldn’t get eggs and things like that but if it is a night flying duty the crew, they would get eggs, we get them as well, yeah, luckily. Weren’t supposed to be, go them, anyway. What else got there then?
IB: We talked a little bit earlier of how your thoughts and feelings about the fact that you were loading bombs onto an airplane so that it could potentially go and kill people
JH: Yeah.
IB: What were your thoughts and feelings about that at the time?
JH: At the time, I thought it was a good thing, I thought, well, we are doing a good job here, you know, East Kirkby, we are putting the bombs up, they are gonna go out, get killed, thousands of Germans, good, [unclear] dead Germans, good, I can’t feel that way now, I just can’t, if I people that see Germany now, same age as me, in the war just the same, [unclear] and we are all good friends, you know, and that’s how it should have been, how it should be, as I said, I went to the museum for the Holocaust, yeah, I’ve been to Norwich, Norfolk, no sorry it’s, Nottinghamshire, I went there talking to the chap who was lecturing that, I said, people don’t seem to remember that we were fighting the Nazis, not fighting the German people, we weren’t fighting the German people although that’s what he was, it was getting over to so when I was young during the war I we are fighting the German people but we weren’t, we were fighting the Nazi regime not the people and that’s, that is what I feel now but then it was good, I think, we’re killing them, let’s kill some more, kill them all, is nothing bad like the dead Germans yeah, so, you know, to look at life like that, but I was nineteen, twenty then but I’m ninety four now, I can’t feel that way, you know, as I say, you to think that I put a bomb up to think now that bomb I put up there young children, babies maybe, completely innocent, I’ve helped to kill them, I’ve helped, not killed, I’ve helped to do it, the aircrew not their fault, not even the aircrew, they were ordered to do it, they’ve got to do it, they’ve got no choice about it, I’ve got no choice about it, it’s the war, I’ve been told I’ve got to do it this thing, you see, during the war years when you was in the service, I was in the Royal Air Force, yeah, and the army, navy, your life is not yours anymore, it belongs to the, the country that you live in, it’s your life belongs to them now, not you, you’re just a tool, you’re absolute tool, someone pulling the strings, [unclear] I’m told, that’s terrible, four years terrible, God, go ley, [unclear] I don’t know,
IB: At the end of your time in the RAF, were you demobbed at the end of the war, you stayed [unclear]?
JH: No, no, I didn’t want to stay, no, I actually I was sent to Birmingham after I was, you know, that’s it, don’t want armourers no more so I sent down to [unclear] in London they sent me back up to Birmingham, when I get there I’m told, go to the police and I, [unclear] and I went to the police so I went to the police, can you see, yeah, ok.
US: He’s coming.
JH: Yeah, I went to the police and of course
[tape stopped]
JH: My demobbed number was number 42 and I was up at Birmingham at the time and as a recruiting officer, I wasn’t officer but that’s why they called a recruiting officer, you know, the people want to come in and join the Royal Air Force I would interview them, ask them questions, if they failed, turned down the army, and you picked the best Royal Air Force you sent them in to see the officer and why, my number’s coming up next, I’ll be out, when the DROs come up next month be deferred, put back and I was dying to get out and I went in the office and I told him, I feel like deserting, he said, get me victory House in London, get me, he did mention a name at [unclear], I said I wasn’t quite sure of that so I had to ring up Victory House, you got to find Victory House, they called me back in the office, get your kit packed tonight, he said, I got you posted down to [unclear] so I got posted to Hall line Acton where I was, you know, recruiting now, it was great, was [unclear] every night lovely so it was like being home but I finally got demobbed from there but then, can I go to bed Rita? But it was there, when I was at Swinderby and used to come down to Lincoln, we got into the castle, look at the old Victorian prison they opened, we would go in there, so me and my mate goes in there, there’s two girls in there, we chat [unclear] very young men, naturally, talked to them and this girl spoke to them, her name is Rita so I went [unclear] took me to her so can I see you again? She says, yeah, so we arranged to see her again and what I should do when I was back in camp, I’ll bring her up cause she can I speak to Ms. Rita Chapman, please? Yeah, so she put me through, she come on phone and I am off duty, can I come down and see you? Yeah, come then, so go down there and we used to come down and we had a good friendship, it was platonic, it was a true, honest friendship, nothing more and nothing less and we used to go out cycling in the country [unclear] we enjoyed that companionship and eventually I got posted away so back down to [unclear] from there I got demobbed and when I was, I [unclear] uniform so I took it out, put this photo in a letter, wrote on it to this girl Rita Chapman, put the letter, this is my photograph and I want you to look after it for me, so I posted it to her, war’s over, I’m out. Fifty seven years later, I might be, my daughter’s mother died, Gladys she died, and we used to go out and [unclear] and I come up once for me and I went down to the Brayford Pool in a pub, William the Fourth, and talked to the lady who was chef here, she was clearing when I was outside, I said, you’re wasted, you’re alright, I said, used to be with the Royal Air Force during and told about this young girl I met Rita Chapman, she said, what a lovely story, she said, why not tell it to the Lincolnshire Echo and read it, she said, promise you, I promise so I went over there, I saw this report apparently he is well known, [unclear] and I forget his name now, his real name, name Pete something, and I went to see him, I said, I don’t know why and that’s it so that weekend I go back home and on a Monday on that weekend when I get back home, the phone rings, I picked the phone up, so a voice said, is that Mr. Hanks? I said, yes, speaking. So she said, this is Rita and I know it wasn’t my daughter Rita, is there any other Rita I knew? And it was this Rita Chapman and we met then after that, I came up here and we were married in 2010, won’t we? We got married. And I’ve been here ever since but I lost her unfortunately in ’13, bloody cancer again, but we had ten, eleven years, wonderful, and you see, my daughter’s name when I got back home we had a son, my son was born in 1947 and he was named Raymond, his photo’s up there now, he’s dead now, anyway and we had a girl, and my wife said, what shall we name her, baby girl? So I thought, I said, name her Rita and I say, let’s call her Rita, don’t ask me why and I said the reason I gave her the name is I didn’t know of anybody else so honest and true and trustworthy as this girl Rita Chapman because there nothing ever went wrong between us, nothing, she was a good companion and I must admit she was a good companion to me cause when you’re living with blokes all the time it’s nice to speak to a female and that’s how I named my daughter Rita, that’s how she got her name when she rang up she says it’s Rita [unclear] and that’s the part, you know, great but you know I thought she did listen and she said, cause everywhere we went, Rita would tell everybody, I think Rita in fact she was on the TV, they took us down to the studio, I forget where it is now, it was on the news, and they interviewed us down on the TV so Lincoln, all Lincoln knows about, I think so, must do, she tells, everybody she met, she would tell her this story about how we met no matter who it was she’d tell, now I’m telling you, she would have told you right [laughs].
IB: Tells us a little bit about your life after demob, and how they treated you and how you [unclear] about it?
JH: I was demobbed, at the time I was pleased to get out, I was pleased to get out, naturally. I went back to work in me old job, I was a metal polisher, and I was polishing for chrome plating, you know anything to do with chrome plating, if it was a bumper bar for a car or car handles, anything that was chrome plated, we were polishing the metal ready for plating and I for quite a number of years dropped and changed but in them days I could pack up me job and say to the manager, I’m going at twelve o’clock, it’s elven o’clock, hour, one hour, [unclear] walked down the road, go and get another job, not like it’s today, I mean, I ‘ve been in and out jobs, packing up here, go down the road, go in there, go somewhere else, all the time, all the time, [unclear] I mean, once I was working away, I just come back and it was the worst ever, you come back, you gotta go to work, and this chap, [unclear] at me, he said, oh, you’ll have to work till half past seven tonight, so I’m not, said, you’re after, I’m not, so I’m packing up, that was it, so I packed up, I wouldn’t gonna work, I was, I must admit, I wasn’t workaholic, I worked till six o’clock, that’s it, I finished, I’d do no more, enough, so anybody says me you work, you know, I’m not, you don’t tell me how I’m gonna work, I tell you when I’m gonna work, so that’s it, I worked till six o’clock and I finished, go home then, that’s alright, I’ve always been, and of course later on in the years, me and my mate we joined together, we made a little company of our own, we were self-employed and we were known as T&H metal polishers in London and we’d done quite well, we done good work and we done very well, earning good money, no problem at all, never had any problems, until time came to retire I said, I’ve had enough so I pack and I gave it up, I could have gone on big business, but I wasn’t workaholic, I’m afraid not, our life is more important than money, you know, you got to have money to live earn enough but that’s it, then enjoy yourself, enjoy life, not there forever, but I think life treated me pretty well, actually I mean, I’ve been quite satisfied by my life, I mean, I did have cancer in the bowels, bowel cancer once but it was in the colon so I was did chop it out and that was it but I mean , I was lucky [unclear] I’ve met, I felt I’ve been lucky all me life, I can’t think of any bad luck, only, sometimes things are going wrong, then they go right, no stay wrong, gone right, I fell as if I’ve been very, very, very lucky, I went through the whole war and never even cut me finger, so I mean, look at some of the things that some people have to go through, illnesses, you know, or [unclear] or trouble galore. But never, I can’t grable, satisfies with me life, don’t ask for any more, health, happiness, nothing more, nothing less.
IB: What do you feel is now about your service days and?
JH: Looking back over the years of me service days, I enjoyed me service days not the reason for me service days, the war, not that but being in service, I, the service days were enjoyable, comradeship, friendship, you know, you couldn’t ask for more, you live in a barrack room full of fellows, you don’t argue, you know, you talk to each other, you know, you grab in the naffy your cup of tea, buy a beer or go out with them and, you know, you just, that was a part, that was a good part about, I enjoyed that part very much, that was the sad part when you had to leave it behind, really, it was only after I got out, that I began to feel sorry, I was dying to get out but then when the time came, I came out [unclear] I could have gone, could have stayed on obviously but I didn’t want to stay on, they were offering it to you, you could stay on to give you so much money, I forget what it was now, but I didn’t want to stay on but then after I got back, you know, got back into reality, you are working for a living, and you had to work hard, all my life as a polisher, I’ve always been, you got a price for a job, you got a job, you gotta polish it, you get payed for the price that job, you gotta use, you know, your brain, you gotta find the quickest way to do the job, and do it the right way, quality, it’s quality first, obviously, but you gotta give them the quality and you gotta give it to them as quick as you possibly can, the quicker you do it, the more money you can earn. So that was peaceful, I’ve done it all my life peaceful and that was tight, sometimes you get a job for polishing and it was tricky, very tricky and some of the jobs could have been dangerous, trying to polish it where you could get caught up in the tool and you cut your fingers off or God knows what, you know, that sometimes could be a bit dodgy, sometimes you get a job really easy when I first went back to it after the war, I went down, back to me old job, and we was doing [unclear] lighters at the time, and we was in them days when I was gonna back to work and I’d [unclear] the RAF and said to the people in the recruiting centre, I earned eight pound a week, eight pound, they laughed at me, eight pound a week cause in them days I a lot of money, I did a lot of money, but when I started work back on Ronson lighters twenty one pound a week for a while but then of course Ronson decided, you know, I’m not gonna pay this much money so my governors said, we not gonna pay that money to get the [unclear] down and so me and me mates said, right that’s it, we’re gonna go on strike, so we did, we didn’t go to work, what happened? We got sacked [laughs]. Got sacked, but there you are, there it goes, I mean, we should have said, well, yeah, I mean, if a good wage was eight pounds a week, to earn twenty one is a bad [laughs] yeah I excepted it but we didn’t wanna except that so he said, right, you’re out, that was it, out, and then, in them days they could do that, you know, they wanted to sack you, they could sack you, they can’t now, can’t they? Isn’t it? Some good jobs. [file missing]
IB: Ok.
JH: When do we start off again?
IB: Any thoughts about the things that you saw, any experience that has left? Lasting impression?
JH: Yes, Swinderby, I forget how many crashes I saw there actually but there was one I remember that came down just off the airfield in front of a cottage and I had to go out there after the rest of the had cleared the stuff away to get and check on the armour equipment that need to come out and inside the aircraft, what were the remains of the aircraft, there seemed to be the scalp of the pilot hanging on the control column, you know, his scalp and shoes on the ground that had come off the aircrew’s feet obviously so they must have taken the bodies away and left the bits and pieces, I checked things out that you know and [unclear] alright to do except I had to go to the burial of at least one of the crew, I’m not sure, but I had to go to a burial at a church at and, I forget where it is now, just outside of Swinderby, Bassingham or Disney, I’m not sure, there’s a church there, and I’ve the escort, part of the escort the coffin in for burial in the ground, it’s still up there and very often I go up there and I do walk up and down and pay my respects, you know, read and make sure that the there’s some there that occurred after I’d gone or before I arrived but there are some there that when I was there so will be the crew that I probably escorted into the burial ground and I do often go up there and pay my respects, you know, I think it’s best, you know nice to do, I think it’s nice, it takes you back in the years and you can relive the old times and you think about the old times and the comradeship, that’s the point the comradeship, you see, and it was, actually is a photo up there, up the top there, on the left is, one of the, can you see it? Is one up there which the guard room and next is [unclear] down the tab and the one on the right hand side is the SHQ headquarters at Swinderby, they’re not there now, they’ve taken away, it’s all gone now but that’s, but it’s nice, to, I often drive up there, just for the sake of reliving memories, go up there and I told you about and I stood there, I parked the car, sitting there and in the park on the runway and I the airfield would be the dispersal and this is where I’m sitting in the car and I remember bringing the aircrew, the aircraft through here, cross this road [alarm goes off]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Hanks
Creator
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Ian Boole
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-22
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHanksJ160622, PHanksJ1602
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:42:58 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Scotland--Shetland
Description
An account of the resource
John Hanks joined the RAF and served as an armourer. Describes his role and his duties. Tells of his posting at Swinderby and East Kirkby. Gives a graphic and vivid account of an aircraft crash at RAF Swinderby. Describes comradeship between ground crew and aircrew. Expresses personal views regarding the bombing campaign.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
1660 HCU
bombing up
Catalina
crash
ground personnel
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
military ethos
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Swinderby
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/826/10811/PFranklinRH1801.2.jpg
ed993c40dd54fbc164c33bd99d02f6c3
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/826/10811/AFranklinRH180615.2.mp3
0f8222ecc090f5fb6357f096dac99466
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Franklin, Richard
R Franklin
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Richard Franklin (b. 1923, 1319873, 178702 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew a tour of operations as a wireless operator / air gunner and later retrained as a navigator.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Franklin and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Franklin, RH
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SW: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Sue Walters, the interviewee is Richard Franklin. The interview is taking place at Mr Franklin’s home in Cople, Bedfordshire, on Friday the 15th of July 2018.
RF: I’m quite happy to do this interview and to tell Sue my life in the RAF, particularly in Bomber Command. I knew, when the war broke out, that I would have to go into the services one way or another because I was still, I wasn’t in a reserved occupation, I lived on the farm but I wasn’t actually working on the farm and after the men who, some of the men who worked on the farm teased [?] me about life, what life would be like in the army, if I joined the army, they had served in the First World War, in the trenches and it was horrifying to hear them. So, I decided there and then that no way if I could possibly help it would I go in the army. I didn’t want to go in the navy because I, I’m no sailor and I got see sick when I went on an outing with school down to Poole Harbour. So when the recruiting office opened in Bedford, for the RAF, I went along and I volunteered to join the RAF as aircrew. And from then on my life was taken over by the RAF and I have no regret whatsoever. Unfortunately, a lot of my friends in Bomber Command lost their lives but I was one of the fortunate ones, I survived the war without any undue injuries and then I was so enjoying life in the RAF after the war, when I was travelling out to the Far and the Middle East that I signed on for a further five years and I would’ve signed on for until I was pensionable age, entitled to a RAF pension, had not a tragedy in my family persuaded me to go back home and join the family on the farm. Which is what I did and I’ve been since 1954, which is when I left the RAF, I’ve been a farmer in the village of Cople on a farm, that my father, my grandfather rather took on in 1901. I, my father took the farm, I took it on from him. I have now retired and my son is running the farm and that is the story of my life [laughs]. I did 34, I think it was 34, 44, 34 raids over Germany. 30 was the number of raids you do and then you were what they called “tour expired”, that meant you were finished flying on raids for the time being and I did my 30 and apart from one raid, when we got shot up by a German fighter and were in dire straits, we could’ve crashed into the English Channel or crashed because of the damage to the aircraft and the fact that we couldn’t get the wheels down, the undercarriage down to land but fortunately we had a very good pilot and a very good flight engineer and they got us safely back to England and nobody, nobody in the crew was in anyway harmed at all but I was one, I was the fortunate member of my squadron who survived a whole tour and was happy to stay in the Air Force for the time, for, till after the war. We had bombed Frankfurt and had left, dropped our bombs on the markers that were marking the target and had left the target area and the gunners were relaxing and we were on our way home and all of a sudden there was this God almighty explosion and the starboard outer engine caught fire and a night fighter had come up and they had guns that came up and fired on the underneath of the aircraft and it set the starboard outer engine on fire and fortunately the flight engineer and the pilot between them managed to extinguish the flames and feather the engine and we was, managed to get home on three engines but the fuel tank on the starboard side had been ruptured and we were desperately short of fuel, we knew that and we knew that we stood a very good chance of coming down in the Channel so we all put our Mae West on ready to abandon aircraft if we did but I was in, the fact that I was the wireless operator, I was in touch with the rescue services all the while home, they kept passing frequency beams onto us so they knew where we were. The air sea rescue were alerted but we made it back and then we were told to go to an aerodrome Lakenheath, near Cambridge, where they had sufficient fire tenders and rescue appliances to rescue us if we crashed. We couldn’t get the undercarriage down, so we had to land on the grass, on the side of the runway, fortunately it was a smooth landing and we all climbed out unharmed and that was it, that was the only near go to being killed that I had in the whole time I was in the RAF.
SW: Off you go.
RF: We were met by the station commander, the Group Captain, when we climbed out of the aircraft, and set down and he shook us all by the hand, and said: ‘Well done, chaps, go to the mess and have a good meal and I will see you in the morning’. Which we did. And we were issued with the railway warrants and with our flying gear and all that, with our parachutes, which we had to take with us, we tracked all our way back to Leeming, in Yorkshire, to our airbase, yeah. The one feature of that episode that I have always felt sorry for was the fact, that the flight engineer, who was engaged to a lady who was pregnant, decided that no more would he fly on operations and he went to the Squadron commander when we got back to our base at Leeming and said he was not going to fly anymore and that immediately court martial offence, he was told, you are going LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre, you volunteered to do it when you joined the RAF, you’ll be placed under arrest. He was placed into the guard room and that’s the last we saw of him. Until many years later, when I was serving in Transport Command, I met him out in a place called Sharjah, in the Persian Gulf. I was on my way to India and that was a terrible place, it had no facilities and he was, came up to me and said: ‘Hello, Sir’. I said: ‘Who are you?’ and he introduced, I knew straight away who he was and I said: ‘What an earth are you doing here?’ And he said that he had been reduced to the ranks and sent out here as an AC2 to clean aircraft toilets and clean aircraft out as they ferried through and that was his punishment. It was because of him and the pilot that we got back to UK from this bombing raid safely and in one piece and that was the way he was treated. Simply because his future wife had persuaded him not to risk his life again. And one of the reasons I was quite happy to go to the Bomber Command Memorial in Lincoln, because I was told that the names of all the people who were killed or missing were inscribed on the plaques in this memorial and the lady in the desk behind the reception just asked me for this fellow’s name. All I could give her was his name and his address, his home address and she found his name and his permanent address and she gave me a leaflet, telling me on which panel his name was inscribed and also a leaflet which told me when he had been killed, the night he perished along with all his crew and where he is buried and I know now that he is buried in a grave on the outskirts of Berlin along with his six other crewmates. 34 raids as a sergeant. I ended up as a flight sergeant at the end of the raid and then I went into Transport Command, I did a navigation course and I became a Flight Lieutenant, I was commissioned and went to became a Flight Lieutenant and I left the RAF in 1954. I’ve got three logbooks but they’re not all, uhm. These are the ones, that’s, that’s the second raid I went on, that’ll be to Düsseldorf and that’ll be, that was the third one with Berlin and then Frankfurt and Stuttgart and so on. We had to [unclear], then Leipzig, then Frankfurt again, that’s when we got shot up, then Berlin on again, another on Berlin again, Stuttgart there, Frankfurt again, Frankfurt twice in three, twice in three and once on the 18th and again on the 22nd. And Berlin again, then Essen and then this is prior to the second front opening, we were bombing in France, gun emplacements, Villeneuve, Le Bourget, Lens, Düsseldorf again, Karlsruhe, Villeneuve again, Gent, Bloen [?], Louvain, [unclear], Aachen, Bourg Leopold, operation [unclear], and my last, that’s it, my last operation was Arras, that was my thirtieth bombing raid and the second, the second front on the 5th of June we were bombing in Merville, France gun emplacements [?] and that’s when the second front opened. So, that’s and after that I went, I was what they called screened and I became an instructor at Stratford. When I finished my training as a wireless operator, I was posted to 427 Squadron which was an all Canadian Squadron in 6 Group based up on Yorkshire and they were, their standard of discipline was far more lenient and lax, than would have been if I had been on an RAF station and I quite enjoyed my time with the Canadians.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Franklin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sue Walters
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-06-15
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AFranklinRH180615, PFranklinRH1801
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:15:16 audio recording
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Franklin served as a wireless operator and flew 34 operations in Bomber Command over Germany. Describes the only operation on which he risked being killed, when his aircraft was attacked by a German night fighter over Frankfurt. Tells of their flight engineer being accused of Lack of Moral Fibre. Mentions bombing various targets in preparation for the opening of the second front in France. Was posted to 427 Squadron.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
aircrew
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
forced landing
lack of moral fibre
memorial
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Leeming
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/811/10791/AEdwardsM171030.2.mp3
142ddf72834f10eaaf105dc74359073d
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Edwards, Megan
M Edwards
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Megan Edwards (1923). She was a telephonist during the war. She is the widow of Arthur 'Eddie' Edwards (1339587 Royal air Force) who flew operations as a pilot with 102 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-30
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Edwards, M
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RP: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Rod Pickles, the interviewee is Megan Edwards. The interview is taking place in Mrs Edwards home in Weymouth, Dorset on the 30th of October 2017. Also present is Caroline Print. Good afternoon Megan and thank you for inviting me to your home. Could you tell us for starters, you’re going to give us the history of your husband and what we would like to know is when and where you met, and what persuaded him to join the RAF, if you know that. So, when did you meet?
ME: We met in a geography lesson in [unclear], our local school, the teacher was doing her best to give us a geography lesson but at the back of the class was a path leading from a meadow where a farmer used to drive his cows every afternoon back to the [unclear] to be milked and this one particular afternoon they were very noisy cows and they were just all the time they brought to the path and poor Mary Porter, Ms Pot as we used to call her, she nearly had to give in because the cows out bellowed her and we were, well, we were all in hysterics, the children and there was suddenly this boy in front of me just [unclear] off and turned around and smiled at me and that was it and he’d been in my life ever since. We were at sunny school together, we were at Cayton’s Camps together, we were at [unclear] together, we churched together cause he was originally in the choir, then he blew the organ, then he rang the church bell and then he used to come and sit behind me and I had a pretty gold bracelet with a heart-shaped lock on it and it acted like a mirror so when he sat behind me I could pick up my bracelet so I could sit and watch Arthur Edwards all through the service, which was quite something when you are only, what, ten or eleven, something like that and then when he needed to earn some money for his pocket, he became my father’s Friday boy cause my dad was the local baker, so he was always around and he was always around to pick up the pieces and whatever I wanted to do if it was a date with another chap, he’d take me along, then leave and then pick me up afterwards but he was always there.
RP: Where was this?
ME: This was in the Forest of Dean and then his mom had a baby girl when she was just about forty and prior to that her husband had broken his leg in the mine and no money come in, no parachute leave because they had a piano which was counted as [unclear] so Arthur had to leave, the, three months I think it was after his sister was born, he didn’t even have time to take his full certificate, he had to go and earn his own living, and he went to London where he was in a hostel and worked for the Fifteen Shilling Tailors for a short while, didn’t like it particularly, sawing on buttons wasn’t his metier at all so he applied to join Sainsbury’s and he trained in the Sainsbury’s setup, learning to pat butter, learning to slice meat, pack your [unclear] proper packets with the flats all down, quite an intensive course in those days and then he got posted down to Brighton when the Germans started their bombing raids on the south coast. By this time I think his mother was [unclear], maybe things that picked up at home I don’t know but suddenly Arthur was back home, determined I think then to volunteer for the RAF, I mean he would’ve been what then, seventeen, coming eighteen? And he used his skills if you can call them that learned at Sainsbury’s and he went into one, a large local shop [unclear] time until he could volunteer, I think maybe he’d been spurred on by another local lad, who in the thirties was in the RAF, and at that time there were two quite well known songs, one was [unclear] Airman, and the other one was Amy, wonderful Amy, Amy Johnson, I think, maybe that had something to do with it, I don’t know, because when I was growing up, I wanted to be a pilot, but I don’t think I would have suit it cause I was always air sick when I flew anyway so that wouldn’t have helped. Anyway, he volunteered on his eighteenth birthday with a lad that sat by him in school and they both went the same day and the other went to the instructor eventually and Arthur obviously went to aircrew and he trained in, I think, Turner Field in America originally and I think it was going to be fighter pilot and then he had an attack of appendicitis which had dopped him all through his teenage years but then the thing to do was to scatter it with glucose or something and once the pain had gone away, that was the end of that, well at Turner Field this one day he had this awful pain and decided he had to go sick and so they would take him away in a hospital and do an operation and as the ambulance doors were closing, the pain just went but he thought, I’ve had enough of this, I’ve it scattered enough times, I’m just gonna let them do the job, which he did but of course that put him back on his course so but the course he was originally on had finished by the time he got out of hospital and convalesced so he was then taken up to [unclear] in Canada and then out to [static interference noise] [unclear] near Neepawa and that is where he got his in Neepawa and then came back to Harrogate where they were all sorted, they were, by the time he got back to Harrogate, the need for fighters had diminished and it was bombers that were needed.
RP: What year was this?
ME: Uhm, he’d volunteered in ’41, by the way nothing to do with him during those [unclear], just
RP: He just disappeared
ME: Just, well yeah, he disappeared and there was nothing, nothing really sort of settled between us, I mean, yeah, you know, if he was on leave, yes, he’d be around some times, but I wasn’t duly bothered, except when he was, well, I remember, I received two and I don’t know why, two aerograms from him because in those days you had like a A4 sheet of paper which you put your letter on and took it to the post office and then they sort of brought it out in miniature, so it was about that size, when you got it, and I had two of those but they were facsimiles each other, I mean I don’t know how I managed to get two but somebody was making a point I think, anyway by that time, I’d been round and round the orchard a few times anyway and uhm decided
RP: Did you pick up many apples on the way?
ME: Yeah, they were good ones, they weren’t rotten,
RP: Oh, it’s alright.
ME: Just the fact that they were too young was the excuse but typical teenager, you don’t know what you want to do when you are a teenager really, I mean, you love and yeah everything’s gonna be beautiful, but doesn’t work out that way, anyway I was by this time a telegraphist [unclear] and I can remember one day I tried to exchange was Dursley, all our phone calls went to Dursley so that if a call ring the callbox needed a phone call you put them through to [unclear] which is to Dursley, well this particular call box was [unclear] as I recall, and Dursley came through to me on the other line and said, Calford, there is somebody wanting you on 3115. So I thought, I missed the fact that the previous caller had obviously put the phone down and Arthur walked straight into the box and picked it back up again and I was probably busy doing something I missed that clearance so that Arthur was through to Dursley so when I went in on the line, and I said, covert exchange, what the hell do you think you are doing? Arthur, oh my goodness me, Arthur Edwards, well, I’m an innocent here, because I didn’t do anything, I was just not too observant, [unclear] the clearance from the other call, anyway, invited me out, had ascertained beforehand from my next door neighbour beforehand who was a [unclear] pilot who I’d grown with as well was [unclear] with going out with anybody so this lad [unclear] and said no I don’t think so, she had a bit of a relationship but it’s collapsed I think so I should think she is free as air so he got straight to the callbox then you see, what the hell do you think you’re doing? [unclear] cause you know he’d been a couple of years in Canada so and wasn’t [unclear] how he expected me to react I do not know. However we did get together and that was, that must have been sort of towards August ’43 I would think and then by January ’44 he [unclear] onto OTU yes, he came home on leave as we got together and I was in [unclear] telephone exchange then and because the contrast between Bristol telephone exchange and the country exchange was enormous but when D-Day arrived, I walked into the switch room there was no activity at all in that switch room, it was as quiet as a grave, and previous to that, we’d been like hats in a toy shop, there were lights everywhere, you couldn’t, you didn’t have enough hands and enough [unclear] to be able to answer anything that you needed to answer, but you knew that day [static interference noise] when you walked in why you would be working so hard because it was all the preparation for D-Day and I mean we in Bristol, you know, there was lots of activity round Wiltshire, Devon and Cornwall, it was just that activity for those three months and more prior to D-Day and yeah, so he came, he came down to Bristol just before he started ops in May and he had a leave in July which was when we decided we would get married because by then he’d worked out that his ops would have finished so it was a better time to do it but it didn’t work out quite that way, we had arranged it was gonna be October the 7th and we, had I known, I’d, well, I may not have been a bride that day because I can’t think what the name of the op was but it was the one where they were carrying gallons and gallons of petrol in jerry cans across to Brussels, the name of that place, it’s a main airport now, something like [unclear] Melstock or something, can’t remember but they were supplying the British army with petrol, that, 4 Group were asked to do that and it was just jerry cans in the fuselage and they had to practically hedge-hop because they had to be under the German radar so that they wouldn’t be noticed and I think that was from about September the 25th until when he came home when we were married on the 7th so that he should’ve been I think home on the Tuesday and he wasn’t, didn’t come to the Thursday, which was two days before we were getting married, and I came off [unclear] which I’d just done from you dad, and when I walked in the living room there’s a huge bunch of black grapes [unclear] where they come from? Cause, I mean, fruit during the war was a real luxury, I mean, you could get lemons, and I liked them and actually used to be very, very naughty cause I’d take them to the pictures with me, and [unclear] and all around you could, you [unclear] people, smacking their lips you know, [unclear] lemon, which I thought was funny, I was enjoying it but they weren’t, anyway
RP: I can tell you the name of the airport is Melsbroek
ME: Melsbroek,
RP: Melsbroek
ME: Yeah, that’s right, it
RP: 25th of September 1944
ME: That’s right, it was
RP: So, where was he flying from at that time?
ME: He was flying from Pocklington
RP: Ah, right, that’s where he’s based
ME: It was 102 squadron
RP: He was based at, he was based at Pocklington
ME: He was based at Pocklington
RP: On 102, yeah?
ME: Yeah, 102, Ceylonese, Ceylon Squadron. And I’ve got a feeling I can’t really remember the name of the secretary in the association, Tom something beginning with a W and I know Rog didn’t like him, Arthur said, the engineer, he didn’t like him, he told somebody and I was talking to Air Commodore Graham Pitchfork last weekend because I know there’s a tape in RAF A archives which Arthur made about his time in the RAF. There’s one in Canada but I don’t want to impose that task for my son at the moment but I could get him to copy it but I spoke to Air Commodore Pitchfork and he said he, you know, if you like to contact him, he can probably manage to get that one out on loan if you want it, I mean, and there you got Arthur’s own version of [unclear]
RP: I remember, yeah, I know the name cause I’ve read some of his articles, is Graham Pitchfork?
ME: Graham Pitchford. I’ve got his telephone number if you want it.
RP: I know the, yeah, I know the name.
ME: Yeah and because I remember going to an RAF association open meeting at Hereford, the wives used to go sometimes, it was mainly the lads but the wives were invited sometimes, and that day it was the Air Commodore and he was really upset the thing that a lot of the history was being lost and being confined to skipt.
RP: Yeah, well, books like that will recover it and we will make sure we contact these people, don’t we?
ME: Yeah, as I said, it’s a tape.
RP: Yeah, that’s fine.
ME: That is Arthur and he must have done it between 1996 and ’99, because when we came back up from West Wales, we joined Gloucester RAF Association and we weren’t too impressed so we went across to Hereford cause we, distant forest from the Forest of Dean
RP: Yeah
ME: By this time, we’ve gone back to forest anyway
RP: Oh yes
ME: And they were really, really nice up there and I know it must have been, I would’ve said, ’97 to ’99, he was dead by June ’99, so that should pinpoint the date,
RP: Yes
ME: If they [unclear] the date order
RP: Ok.
ME: As I said, Graham Pitchfork said, get in touch with him and he did his best.
RP: Well, thanks for that, yeah, we will make a note
ME: [unclear]
RP: I’ll make a note of afterwards, so, yeah
ME: Yeah, fine.
RP: So, after having taken all that petrol, what did he do after that? Did he resume normal flying then, after the petrol?
ME: Uhm, yes, he still then had a couple of ops to do, didn’t he? Because they weren’t considered ops, they were only [unclear] or something, so he still had some more to do, so he, we got married on the 7th so he must have had a week’s leave, so that was back on the 14th or something, and he’d still got these couple of ops. It’s all in there, it’s all in that book actually, they set off on this raid and I can, whether it was to Cologne or not, I’m not sure and as they were flying, they were seeing aircraft turning round and going back but as I said, he probably realised that failure is not part of Arthur’s vocabulary and no, he wasn’t going to abort. He didn’t abort when he lost his escape hatch, he didn’t abort when with the bee, [unclear] but [unclear] could understand why these aircraft were turning back, and then he suddenly realised that they’d lost an engine, and that the [unclear] of that engine was so [unclear], and then they lost another and Roger [unclear] said you know and I’m happy about this, so the, something’s happening and I think we should turn back but Arthur said, just [unclear], just stop, not, we’re doing what we set out to do, but then he lost another so Rog comes down in the cockpit with his parachute over his shoulder and said, what? If you don’t turn back now, then I’m walking home. So, Arthur realised something was really up and yes, they did turn back, cause they hadn’t got to target, so they got their bombs on board and then because the army was still going up through, they weren’t free to drop their load anywhere, it had to be over the sea, I think they were down for about three thousand feet something when they managed to drop it and they just got into Manston because the engines were pouring and all the oil had sort of thinned out
RP: Yeah
ME: Yeah, so,
RP: Yeah, sounds like the major problem
ME: [unclear] it sort of was [laughs] they put themselves down and Roger looked at the aircraft and he was quite disgusted cause it was covered in oil from propeller to tail and he’d nursed that aircraft through all those ops, you know. Anyway, Arthur went up to the control tower to report that to base to say that they had landed away from base, they were at Manston and [static interference noise] came back down and he said to him, that’s it. That was the end of their tour. So,
RP: How many ops was their tour?
ME: Say again.
RP: How many ops did they do on, was it thirty? It was thirty [unclear]
ME: It was something thirty-nine and a bit.
RP: Was it more?
ME: Yeah, was like thirty-nine and a bit, I think, it’s on the nose of the aircraft
RP: Right.
ME: The daylight ones were in white, I think, the night ones were in brown I think, they various symbols for what they did and it’s all recorded on the nose of the aircraft which was why when Tim wrote that book he could tell when that picture was taken, bit amazing, I don’t know how he worked it out but he did.
RP: It’s good, isn’t it? Amazing!
ME: Yeah, uhm, anyway, I guess Arthur took himself off to the officers’ mess but Rog, the flight engineer, and Walker, the rear gunner, and [unclear] it must have been Mason, wireless operator air gunner, they decided, right, they were going out on the town, so people in Manston gave them a real good night out cause they realised that they just come off an op so they didn’t pay for any drink that night but they were well and truly away with the fairies I would think there is a word that they would use but I’m a lady so I won’t use it. Anyway, they decided then because they’d finished all, all the way off [unclear] they were going down onto the beach so these three [unclear] down to the beach and they heard a lot of commotion, an awful lot of shouting and the police arrived because the beach was a minefield, wasn’t it?
RP: Oh dear!
ME: They had just escaped from that aeroplane and went down on the beach. Anyway, the police took them away, put them in jail, bedded them down, gave them supper and they slept it off and I think [unclear] went down the next day and retrieved them. But they had to wait then for major things to be done before they could fly back
RP: So, they flew the aircraft back to Pocklington.
ME: They took the aircraft back to Pocklington, yeah.
RP: So, he’s finished the tour, so what did Arthur Edwards do then? Where was he
ME: What did Arthur Edwards do then? What didn’t Arthur Edwards do? Arthur Edwards, something was going on like, oh, he had [unclear] weeks leave, he kept having cables to say, your leave has been extended right and they were sent another new squadron, a transport squadron, to fly casualties out from the Middle East and it was, that was gonna be converted Halifaxes I believe, according to Tim in the book, it turned out to be Dakotas and they only went as far as the Middle East, they were all round the Middle East. Then they went from there to India, then to Burma, then to Malaya, and that is when he was in Malaya that he became personal pilot to
RP: [unclear]
ME: Air Vice Marshal
RP: Bouchier, did you say?
ME: Bouchier, was a photograph I have here somewhere and
RP: So, this was flying Dakotas before that when he was, in the Middle East he was flying Dakotas
ME: He was flying Dakotas, it was Dakotas with Transport Command, because I can remember they were in a place called Mithila, in Burma, I remember, uhm, that’s right and then, oh, and there was an op that they were going to do at [unclear] in Singapore and they were going to fly down to Singapore, they were glider towing [unclear]
RP: Because they, it’s all part of Operation Tiger, wasn’t it?
ME: That’s right. But they would not have enough fuel to get back and they were going to have to ditch and hoped that the navy would be at hand to pick them up.
RP: But in the end Operation Tiger was cancelled.
ME: It was cancelled, that’s right, so,
RP: A very large bomb went off in Japan and ended
ME: Exactly, that’s right, well then, Arthur went then and they were at a place called Iwakuni
RP: So, going back to his Halifax days,
ME: Yeah
RP: You mentioned the DFC, when did he, when was he awarded the DFC?
ME: On the February after he’d gone abroad.
RP: So, he’d finished the ops and then he was awarded, so, when did he actually receive it then, if he was abroad?
ME: By post.
RP: Really?
ME: It was sad
RP: There was no presentation?
ME: It was so sad because the King had started to be ill and he wasn’t doing the presentations, so they were sent out by post which was very sad. The same thing happened with his uhm, QC, oh what’s it, Queen’s Commendation for Valuable Services, QVSIA, he didn’t go to the palace for that, it was presented to him in the [unclear] hall Gloucester by the Duke of Beaufort.
RP: But this was obviously, Queen Elisabeth.
ME: That was when he was flying with the Guinea police air wing.
RP: So, if you go, if we go back to where we were,
ME: Yeah,
RP: Operation Tiger is cancelled and he’s in India
ME: Yeah
RP: So, what happens then?
ME: Well, that is when I got a feeling that the Air Vice Marshals was asking for a pilot and that’s when he volunteered to be that pilot. So, he flew then from Burma to Iwakuni and they, all stations up through the Pacific, which were manned by the Americans, weren’t they? And I don’t think they could believe their eyes, when they realised what luxury the US Air Force had compared to what our lads had and on their way, when they got to Singapore, where they had a night stop obviously, a burglar entered Air Vice Marshall Boucher’s quarters and took everything. So, that Arthur would then going around sort of not actually beg, borrowing and stealing, but trying to get the Air Vice Marshall kitted out to get him up to Japan, he took his uniform and everything and Arthur said, he arrived in Japan in [unclear] of clothing, you know, for an inspection of the Commonwealth troops so I don’t expect he was very pleased at that.
RP: So, he was away quite a while then from England, from you.
ME: Oh yeah, he was away from the February until August ’46.
RP: Gosh!
ME: Yeah, well
RP: That’s February ’45 or
ME: That was February ’45 until August ’46. Yeah, well, you just accepted that.
RP: So, what, you mentioned he joined Guinea police, so what year did he leave the RAF?
ME: He left the RAF in ’46, then he went in civilian life for ten years and then he decided he wanted to join the Guinea police.
RP: So, did you all move out to Guinea then?
ME: Just me,
RP: Yeah
ME: I didn’t have any children.
RP: [unclear]
ME: No. Just me, he went first and I went nine months afterwards and yeah, he had some nail-biting moments then I can tell you or when he was in Burma, he flew part of the peace commission across to Ceylon because it was Mountbatten in charge of that area then and he flew the peace mission from Rangoon across to Ceylon, oh what’s the other place in Ceylon? Kandy, is it?
RP: Kandy is in Ceylon.
ME: Yeah, possibly, yeah, uhm, and they were about to set off, uhm, with all the [unclear] and that that were necessary to take with them for signing papers and as they were walking to the aircraft, one of Arthur’s crew said, oh skip, we’ve got, we’ve got a problem, and Arthur said, what, what kind of a problem? He said, well, one of the PA’s, one of the naval officers, it’s a lady. And there were no facilities for ladies, for toilets on board because they have tubes, don’t they?
RP: Oh yes
ME: Right, yes.
RP: Yes [laughs]
ME: So, Arthur had to send another of his crew to the store to get a bucket, ready for the use of.
RP: Life was tough then.
ME: Yeah [laughs], it was, but, uhm, yeah, he was, what can I say,
RP: But you mentioned he recorded this tape in the late Nineties so between the time he’d finished flying and then, did he ever talk much about his war experiences?
ME: Occasionally.
RP: Cause most of them have, most people didn’t,
ME: No
RP: it’s only later in life that they
ME: Occasionally, not often, I mean, I knew, he told me about the bee, because he was telling me somebody else about that but, I mean, that was years and years afterwards and the escape hatch obviously.
RP: What was the one about the bee then?
ME: The bee was the one when they were on this op they started off and everything was ok and then suddenly his instruments weren’t working so he called Rog up and Rog came in and he had a good look round to see what the problem was and he couldn’t solve anything and he said, I cannot make out why you’re not getting anything from your instruments. So, Arthur had to fly in formation with another aircraft all the way to the target and back, no instruments of any kind at all, to tell him where he was, what he was doing and what height he was at or anything and, as I said, when they got back down and the ground crew took a look, it was a bee in the instrument panel.
RP: Doing what [laughs]?
ME: [unclear], it just caused something.
RP: Right.
ME: That was the explanation Arthur had from, it was a bee that had caused the problem, and I think, well, you know, what on earth?
RP: I can only think it must’ve been quite a large one.
ME: Well yeah, could’ve been a hornet I suppose [laughs], it could’ve been a hornet, but he said it was a bee. And I did try to find it in, but it may well be there I don’t know because Rog may have told uhm, you see, because Arthur was already killed before Tim wrote that book
RP: Oh, alright.
ME: So, a lot of the things he got from Roger match
RP: So,
ME: And I would have thought that Roger would’ve said about that one.
RP: Yeah, so, Arthur never read this then. Arthur has never read this book.
ME: Arthur has never that book
RP: Alright, I see.
ME: That is what is so sad,
RP: Yes.
ME: He’s never read that book and
RP: Because he could well have added to it of course.
ME: Oh, yes, of course he would. Ok. Because all [unclear], because I’ve got a lot, I have got a lot of information about the book, what, why it was written,
RP: Oh, we can have a look at that,
ME: Yeah and then he, you see, afterwards, when Arthur was killed, I was, uhm, yeah, I was in a flat in Gloucester then, uhm, which Mason, [unclear] and that is when Roger rang me and said, there’s this chap in Yorkshire who’s writing a book about the, is it ok if I give him your telephone number, because he’d like to contact you? And Rog he still contacts me
RP: Ah, that’s good.
ME: He rang me a fortnight ago to say, when is it convenient for us to come down to see you at Christmas? [unclear] come to see me at Christmas they’ve always kept in touch.
RP: That’s [unclear]. Would you happen to know if he’s been interviewed?
ME: Pardon?
RP: Would you happen to know if anyone has interviewed him?
ME: Nobody has. And I think he deserves to be.
RP: Well, I’ll take his address from you afterwards.
ME: Yeah, I, he deserves to be because that
RP: Oh absolutely. Well, if he’s done that book, he certainly does. He must have a good memory.
ME: Well, it’s the fact that, I’m not denigrating miners or anything because I was brought up in a mining community but he was only secondary school, he was a miner’s son, lived in Pontefract, uhm, he didn’t have any body, uhm, oh what do they call it? When they check read a script, he’d nobody to do that for him, what he got there is what you see, I mean, as I said to Arthur’s niece, grammatically there are a few flaws, and she said, it doesn’t matter Megan, he has recorded his [static interference noise]
RP: That’s a page of history, that’s the main thing.
ME: Yeah, that’s it.
RP: That’s exactly what you want.
ME: Yeah, so uhm, and you see, his niece’s husband, Martin, was RAF, air sea rescue, uhm, he was in the Iraq war, uhm, when he retired from the RAF, he went to fly for Monarch, so a fortnight ago he had a shock during
RP: [unclear] go well there?
ME: No, he didn’t. He said to me, Megan, it’s a good job, I didn’t realise when I put that aircraft down on Friday on the runway and I’m glad I didn’t know that was the last time I was landing an Airbus but he didn’t, he only knew during the night by an email, but now he’s had an interview for WOW and another one for Titan.
RP: Yeah, well, they are always interviewing.
ME: Yes.
RP: Ok, I think we can leave it there cause I think we’ve surely captured the essence of Arthur and I thank you for all the information that you’ve given us, it’s been lovely listening to you, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Megan Edwards
Creator
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Rod Pickles
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AEdwardsM171030
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:38:31 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Description
An account of the resource
Megan Edwards talks about her husband, Arthur Edwards, who served in the RAF with 102 Squadron. Tells of how they met at school and always kept in touch through the war, until they married on October 7th, 1944. She remembers working at the Bristol telephone exchange on D-Day. Arthur took on various jobs before volunteering for the RAF in 1941. He initially went to America to train as a fighter pilot, but then was moved on to bombers. He was stationed at RAF Pocklington on 102 Squadron, with which he flew thirty-nine operations. Remembers when Arthur and his crew had to abort what was to be their last operation and land at RAF Manston because of a widespread oil leak. From 25 September to 7 October, Arthur and his crew dropped fuel canisters over Brussels to supply the British army with petrol. Tells of when a bee got stuck in the instrument panel, jamming it. Towards the end of the war, from February 1945 to August 1946, Arthur was posted to Transport Command, flying Dakotas to the Middle East and the Far East, in preparation for Operation Tiger. Mentions him being awarded the DFC by post and the Queen’s Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air. Arthur left the RAF in 1946, went back to civilian life for ten years and then joined the Guinea police air wing.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Kent
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-09-25
1944-10-07
102 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
C-47
Distinguished Flying Cross
Halifax
pilot
RAF Manston
RAF Pocklington
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/794/10776/ADawsonR171107.2.mp3
8ad9cef294f74f5a98b99c14641317ab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dawson, Ron
R Dawson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Ron Dawson (1684989 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dawson, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the international Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is Ron Dawson, flight sergeant, later warrant officer. The interview is taking place at Ron’s house in Stafford on the 7th of November 2017. Ron, would you start us off by telling us a little bit about your family background please?
RD: Yes. Well, I was the, there was four of us in the family and I was the, my brother was four years older than me and then I had two sisters, four years and five years older than, younger than me. And we lived in a terraced, small terraced house and from there I, when I was sixteen and a half, when I was sixteen I joined the Air Training Corps and then the Air Training Corps I trained to be air gunner and strange as it may seem, my schoolfriend, who we went training on bomber pilot, he changed, he became and we were training as air gunners together. And we trained, and you did your air gunnery course which was an exciting course because you did flying on different aircraft, we did Anson aircraft which had a turret behind the pilot and of course being a gunner, that was ideal and they used to, an aircraft coming along, towing a windsock and we used to fire the guns at the windsock and then my pal joined up and we got in this air gunnery course together and then we went to, when it was all finished, we went to an airfield in Leicester, there was hundreds of different people, pilots, bomb aimers, navigators, and the pilot was trying to get a crew together and he was walking along and talking and with me, he said, he came over, he said, tell me, who are you? I said I told him my age, who I was and he said, what do you want to be? I said, a rear gunner. Oh, he said, I am looking for a rear gunner for my crew and I said, wonder of wonders, my pal, who gave up Bomber Command, gave up pilot and navigator course and we are on the course together and we did a gunnery course, flying an Anson aircraft with a turret, and then in a Boulton Paul Defiant, which was a fighter aircraft, and it was, it had a turret, and it was exciting. And then we all met in this very large room at the airport of Leicester and this man came to me and he said, can you tell me who are you? Well, I said, Ron Dawson, and he said, what did you train? I said, I’ve been trained as an air gunner, oh, he said, I’m a pilot, and he was Australian. And he said, I’m a pilot, I’m looking for a gunner, I said, well a rear gunner, he said, that’s fine and I said, my pal who managed to get the same course, we did the gunnery course together, and I said, I joined up with the pilot, the navigator and other people and we flew. In the early days, we flew in the, the old aircraft called the Whitley, it’s nickname was the flying coffin, because it was square shaped like a coffin and it flew nose down and I did a couple of operations over Europe in that dropping, one was dropping leaflets and the other one was dropping bombs. And then I got together and we were, we were recruited to, as a crew, doing raids on different parts of Germany, Leipzig, Magdeburg, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Berlin and I said it’s, it was exciting going to these different places and I said it was exciting to see the aircraft fighting in the sky, the Germans firing at us and I said twice, on, once on a trip we were attacked by the German aircraft and he fired his guns at us but he never hit us and another time we were there they came and he, the aircraft attacked us and he shot us up, shot the backend of the plane and we had trouble with the mechanics to control the aircraft and we had to land at a [unclear] in Norfolk which was controlled by the Americans and we landed there because there was some difficulty with the mechanics of the aircraft and in controlling it and they had a runway over a mile long which enabled us to control our aircraft and stop and then another time we were shot up and we had to land and we landed at an American Air Force base and I remember the American coming to me and saying, are you RAF? I said, yes, I am, I’m an air gunner, rear gunner, oh, he said, and where [unclear], I said, this is my aircraft, my God, he said, it’s all bullet holes, I said, yes, fortunately none of them have hit us and I said, and another time, we got shot up and then I said, I was flying coming back from Germany on a raid, and we got attacked and we got, we had to bail out, I said, we were over twenty thousand feet and I said it was almost laughable when I was, I said, I went forward the aircraft, you, normally I would drop out the, out the rear turret, backwards, with me parachute on, but if we could we all went out the front so the pilot could count the crew had got out and I said, I bailed out of there the front and I said, we were twenty thousand feet and I said, it was, it was unique, I said and, I said I was, we carried a whistle so that if you ever come down in the sea, you don’t have to shout, you blow the whistle and attract attention and I said, I was blowing my whistle and I was shouting hello! This is Ronnie, this is Ronnie, is calling everybody, hello! And I said I was [unclear] down some twenty thousand feet and I said, I landed and I, immediately I could see my aircraft which had crashed and was burning and I turned my back on it and started to run away and I got, I was hiding up and I was hiding in these bushes, I had no idea where I was, except I thought I was in Germany and I said I, it was coming daylight and I got into these bushes and I looked out cause I heard a dog barking and I thought, they’ve got the dogs on me tail and then I looked up, it was getting late, and I could see these crossroads and the crossroads had signposts there, the Germans never took the sign posts down, so there was a little farmhouse nearby and I saw this farm and this dog was really [unclear] barking and when he disappeared I went out to look at the crossroads to see where I was. And the first words that stuck out in me mind was Luxembourg and I thought, oh, I’ll just go back and hide, now I know where I am and, but the dog started barking again, I thought if I go back and hide in the bushes, the farmer will, I don’t know whether he’s good, bad or indifferent, but I said, I walked into the village, and I said, it’s a mystery of mysteries, about eight to ten children came from nowhere, told them to call [unclear] through the village and no sooner we’d done about twenty yards, then the sirens went and the children disappeared and I turned the first corner and it ended into a little wood and I said, I got my maps out cause I’ve read the signpost and I found where I was and I thought, good, and I was told in, when I was in training, if you get shot down and you come near Switzerland, that’s a neutral country, it’s a good country to get to if you can but the Germans smothered the border to stop anybody trying to escape so I said, I made me mind up, I was in Luxembourg and I’d walk across France and across Spain because Spain wasn’t exactly [unclear] friendly with Germany and into Portugal and I said, I don’t know how many hundred miles it was and I said, I set off walking, but again I got disturbed and this little man stopped me when I was sitting in this little wood and he said in French, vous RAF, tombez avec parachute, you RAF, fall with the parachute and I said, I’ve never been more pleased about learning French at school than I did then, cause the words came easy. And I said yes and I was picked up by them and they hid me away and it was a case of hiding from the Germans and I knew where I was, Luxembourg and then I got out of there and I set off for Spain and I, over France and Spain and Portugal but I got picked up and I was, joined the RAF from there, almost flying in different aircraft, finishing me air training course, and when I did in 1944, I was on me fortieth op and I got shot down and I couldn’t fly again and I was, I got picked up by the underground and taken care of.
JM: Now, I believe Ron that you were, you were, I believe you were sheltered by the Resistance for quite, I believe you were sheltered by the Resistance for quite a long time.
RD: Yeah, yeah.
JM: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
RD: About?
JM: About the time you spent in hiding in Luxembourg.
RD: Oh yes. When I, when I was hiding from the Germans, I didn’t know where I was, and then I was hiding in the bushes, and then I heard a dog barking, and I thought, oh, the Germans have got a police dog on me tail, and I looked out and it was a farmhouse with crossroads, and there was a farmer and his big dog were standing by a little farmhouse, he went in and there were signposts at the crossroads, the Germans never took signposts down, so I said, ah, that’s where I’ll know where I am, and when I went down, I saw the words, [unclear], Luxembourg, and I was just a few kilometres from Luxembourg and I thought, great, and then the underground picked me up, and I was hiding and training with them and it was really exciting coming down after being shot down at twenty thousand feet in the air and blowing the whistle and shouting, this is Ronnie, this is Ronnie, and I landed and then I saw the Luxembourg, I saw the crossroad signs, saw that I was in Luxembourg, and I was going back into hiding, and then the farmer saw me, so I went into the village, and I walked in the village and about eight to ten children joined me and then the sirens went and the children disappeared and I went into the wood, and I looked at me, I got me maps out cause you would given when you would training, you were given an escape package, with foreign money in, French, Belgian, German, and the little maps to tell you where you were and I said, I decided that I would, that’s what I would do, but I got picked up by this little man and he came, he said, vous RAF, tombez avec parachute and he took me on board and I was glad to know it was Luxembourg.
JM: I believe for some time you were living in a house that was only two doors from the Gestapo.
RD: What?
JM: I believe for, you were living in a house that was only two doors down from the Gestapo headquarters.
RD: Two what?
JM: Two doors, two houses, close by the Gestapo headquarters.
RD: Oh yes, yes, and it was exciting and it was frightening in some words, not exactly frightening, but I went training and I was flying and as I say, I got shot down, then I got picked up by the underground cause I was in these different houses and they, I found out, [unclear] I read me maps and everything where I was and I thought, I’ll set off walking from, to Portugal because you couldn’t, the Swiss border was so heavily protected and so I got picked up by the underground who took me on board and took me in a house and hid me and I was hiding away when I was, this man came and took me and he took me to his house and it was in Luxembourg and it was a nice house that I learned much later it was only four, five doors from the senior German police officer and I was hiding in this house and it, they looked up to me, and then they picked up and put me in the underground and it was, it was living, when I was flying, I did about, I did over forty operations and I got shot down, and I wasn’t hurt but when we had to land at this airport, which is a big airport, the Americans were there and when the Americans came and saw the aircraft, and said, are you part of the crew? I said, yes, he said, what are you? I said, the rear gunner, my God, he said, look at that! He said, I said, all the Perspex of the rear turret was shot away, there’s bullet holes all over, how I’ve never been hit I don’t know, but I said it was, I was picked up by those people and I was learned to, trying to fly.
JM: Ron, can I just take you, can I just take you back to your time in Luxembourg?
RD: Time?
JM: When you were living in Luxembourg.
RD: Yeah.
JM: Does the main
RD: I was living in Luxembourg, I was picked up and this, this family picked me up and I was, I’d seen the sign posts and I looked, I got in the wood and looked at me maps and I saw where I was, I was delighted and then this little man came and asked me if I was RAF and I joined up with him.
JM: Does the name Ferdie Schulz mean anything to you? The name Ferdie Schulz?
RD: Yes, and the man, the man that looked after me, was a man, he, I was picked up and taken into the village. And there’s a lady there and she was talking to me in French and it was, she was talking very fast and difficult to understand and I said, the door opened and I said, this man came in, tall, heavily built, short cropped iron grey hair, I said, this man’s Gestapo, he’s German, but he said to me in German, sprechen sie Deutsch? I said, nein. I said, I speak English. Parlez vouz francais? I said, en peu, just a little I speak, but I am English, and from that moment on he hid me away and he took me to his house in the middle of Luxembourg. His wife was a Spanish lady who was neutral of course and she was scared stiff because she was not anti-German but not pro German. And she was scared stiff because only a few doors away was a very senior German police officer and if she’d been caught, she could have been hurt, she could’ve been. Anyhow, I got out of there
JM: How long, how long were you living with them?
RD: Ey?
JM: How long were you living with them?
RD: I lived with Ferdie Schulz from the March to the 8th of June.
JM: Right.
RD: Because the invasion came on the 6th of June.
JM: Yes.
RD: All the names and dates blend in.
JM: Yes.
RD: And then I, I was in training and
JM: When you left their house, when you left their house
RD: Yes
JM: I believe
RD: When I lived Ferdie Schulz’s house.
JM: You went to the Ardennes
RD: I went to live in Belgium and then in Belgium I went into the Ardennes forest
JM: Yes
RD: And I lived in the Ardennes forest and I joined up with a [unclear] groups of people and they were all European, French, German, Italian and we were all in this camp and I was sitting when the invasion had started and we could hear the invasion, the, the Allies had landed in Europe and were coming forward, and we were in this camp as I say, nearly all European nationalities, and we were debating what to do, should we come out in the open and meet the Allies or wait and I said, I went outside in to have a pee and I said over the top of the bushes, I saw these round helmets, my God, Germans have found us and I said, run, the Germans are here! And it turned out to be the Americans.
JM: So, you were liberated by the Americans.
RD: Yeah, and then the Americans picked us up, looked after us, took us into the, into the Ardennes forest and I was living in the Ardennes forest with a group of other people and then I was moved into Belgium and it
JM: Now, I believe that the Americans actually arrested you in the forest.
RD: Well, what happened was, when I went outside for a pee, I saw the round helmets, I thought, run, it’s the Germans, and then [unclear] with the Americans and the Americans came and they talked to us and they, he said, we have to arrest you because we have to interview to find you who you really are and we are going to put you in this school house with some other people and outside in the yard was full of German soldiers and I was looked after and interviewed and hidden away, well, I say hidden away, got to know everybody, and it was, it was, living in the with Ferdie Schulz, just a few doors from the senior police officer, then things got a bit scary, they had a maid and she found out I was there, and they moved me on, into a village called Troisvierges, three virgins, in Northern Belgium, and I lived with a doctor, Doctor Isha, and his wife and he had a wife there and he was old and he had a daughter called Guedette and he had a maid, she was seventy odd, and we lived there for a while. And then they moved me on from there into a hiding place in the forest in north, in south Belgium and then I got out when the Germans came, well, when the Americans came, I got out and they interviewed me and I eventually got back to England and was transferred, it was funny, when I was picked up I was more or less left to go on my own devices and I said, I was guided up to the north of, to the north of Europe and then taken over into Europe and in Europe I met Ferdie Schulz who looked after me, he looked after me for several weeks, and then, after a few weeks, the Germans, the Allies came forward and he took me along and we met the Allies.
JM: I understand that after the war, you met up with the Schulz family again through their daughter.
RD: That’s right.
JM: Will you tell us about that, please?
RD: That’s right. I went back, I went back to see them, Ferdie Schulz, in Europe and it was, it was exciting and frightening to think that I’d lived so close with them to the senior German police officer and that they risked their lives.
JM: And he was involved with Radio Luxembourg.
RD: That was Luxembourg.
JM: And he was involved
RD: And from Luxembourg I went to the Ardennes forest in Belgium
JM: You did, but Ferdie Schulz was involved with Radio Luxembourg I believe.
RD: Radio?
JM: Radio Luxembourg.
RD: Radio Luxembourg.
JM: He was involved with that?
RD: Oh yes, well, Radio Luxembourg came and interviewed me.
JM: Right.
RD: And it was, they were so interested into the story
JM: Right.
RD: And from there on I went, the Americans came forward and the Americans looked after us and then I went
JM: You went to Paris I believe.
RD: Went to Paris, yes, was nice Paris, nice in Paris, and it was a strange world in Paris but it was such a big city, it was a lonely place but I was taken up to the, to live with Ferdinand Schulz in his house and as I say, he had a Spanish lady who was in neutral
JM: Yeah.
RD: And she was frightened because in case the Germans
JM: How did you get back from Paris to England?
RD: Well, I was living in a camp among a lot of other people, Europeans, German, Italians, French, Belgian and I went outside for a pee, saw these round helmets and I thought, oh, the Germans have come, and I shout, the Germans have come, and this voice said, [unclear] and it was the Americans and I said, the Americans then got us all together and they said, well, you have to be interviewed to see if you are really who you are, to see if you are an ally and so you’ll be arrested by us and I was arrested and I was put on the back of an American lorry and taken up to South Belgium and I was taken out there and put into a school and I was told I would have to be there till I was interviewed and I said anyhow, I went in the school and the Germans interviewed me and then I, I was, they believed who I was
JM: I think you mean the Americans interviewed you.
RD: Well, the Americans I meant, the Americans and they left me on me own to get back to England and I got back to England and got picked up and got helped and it was all exciting, it was coming back to a new world, after being shot down, you know, it was, and how frightening it was, to live so near a senior German police officer and it was, I wasn’t caught.
JM: You successful evaded for so many weeks
RD: And the Americans came and took me, put me in a school, then took me to the North of Belgium and left me and I mean, I made me own way back to England and I, I must tell you, I had no money and I was walking in Paris cause I’d the freedom of the Americans and I saw this notice, it was a notice on the wall that said, something about a British regiment, I said, I went inside, and I said, there was a captain there and he said, yes, who are you? I said, well, I’m English, he said, how do I know you’re English? I said, well, I tell you the story I’ve been shot down and I said, really what I’ve come for is to see if I can get some money. You’ve got nothing here, it’s not a charity, and the door opened and this fellow is a captain and a major walked in and he said, what’s going on? And when he heard the story, he said to the captain, give him the money, I’ll take the responsibility, we’ve got his name, his rank and his number and we’ll get it back from him later. And I said, so they gave me the money, and I said it’s, then the Americans took me into Northern Belgium that’s more or less left me.
JM: But when you got the money in Paris, you were able to get home.
RD: Right, yeah, yeah, they took me to the North of Belgium and left me and then I got on a plane, made me home with it and I was picked up at the, Germans, the Americans picked me up and they took care of me and I was hiding away and I got free.
JM: When you got home, your family must have been thrilled to have you back.
RD: When I got home?
JM: Your family must have been thrilled to have you back.
RD: Well, I remember that I’d no money and I just wanted money to let my family know I was alright and the British officer gave me the money and I got a message sent to England to tell them folks that I was alright. And the Americans dumped me in the North of Belgium and let me to find me own way back and then I went back and I found my way to the railway station and I got a ticket and I phoned up and told them where I was and the family met me, my dad and two sisters met me at the Stafford railway station and they looked after me.
US: [file missing] You want to tell that story?
RD: Yeah.
US: And then you can tell that story and then Julian asked and then, when you got back to the UK, how did you get a message to your dad and where did they meet you, not at Stafford, it was at Durham or Newcastle.
RD: Yeah, yeah, well,
US: Tell.
RD: What happened was that when I got the money, we had a good drink, and then the Americans took us forward to the North of Belgium and left us on our own but I had money to get across
US: You had no money, they left you in Belgium, you made your own way to Paris, and it was the English major in Paris
RD: OH yes
US: Who gave you some money.
RD: Yes, the English and army unit, English army unit gave me the money and I managed, they left me in the North of Belgium and I managed to get over there.
US: No doubt.
JM: Yeah, ok.
RD: [file missing] and I spoke to them, they said, we’ll come and meet you, anyhow they came and they met me and I was with them and it was, it was nice meeting up with the family again and it was exciting story to tell and
JM: And I believe after the war, you were a policer officer.
RD: Ey?
JM: I believe after the war, you were a police officer.
RD: OH yes, yes, I joined the police force and it was the thirty years of the policemen, well, twenty odd years, and then I was in a special unit, and it was, they took me in this special unit and the British army looked after me and then I, from there on I, it was the case of meeting different people and getting home and
JM: Ron, could I, answer up and just take you back a little bit?
RD: Is what?
JM: Could I take you back a little bit because there are one or two questions that I want to ask, just to clarify it for the recording. What squadron were you in?
RD: What?
JM: What squadron were you with, when you were shot down? Was it 4?
RD: 429 Squadron.
JM: 429, and where was this based please?
RD: 6 Group Bomber Command Canadian.
JM: Right.
RD: So, I was with a Canadian group and it was they, they looked after me.
JM: Yes. So, you were in a Canadian squadron, but you had an Australian pilot and you were English.
RD: An Australian pilot, an Irish engineer, a Scottish navigator and the foreigner was me.
JM: [laughs] and the operation on which you were shot down was one of the most important and famous operations of the war.
RD: Yeah, well, it was, I was shot down on the major, the biggest loss of Allied bombers which was in ’44 and there was 97 British bombers shot down.
JM: And where were you attacking?
RD: And that was the heaviest loss of bombers at any time.
JM: Yeah. Where were you attacking Ron? What was the target? What was the target?
RD: Pilot?
JM: The target.
RD: Target, Nuremberg.
JM: So, it was the Nuremberg raid.
RD: Yeah, it was on the way back from Nuremberg, this twin engine aircraft shot us up
JM: And you, you
RD: I bailed out by parachute
JM: Yeah.
RD: And there were twenty thousand feet and I was shouting and whistling
JM: And the other crew members, they bailed out too, did they?
RD: Ey?
JM: The other crew members all bailed out?
RD: Yeah, they, I found out later they were, they bailed out and were arrested
JM: They were all captured
RD: Yeah
JM: So, you were the only evader
RD: And I was the only escapee.
JM: Right.
RD: And but I didn’t know that, but it was all now exciting and to think that they, American, the British gave me some money and I was able to go into Paris and
JM: Ron, Ron, can
RD: I remember I got, [unclear] two or three other people and we got drunk with champagne and the champagne was, it was cheap [coughs] and the more we drunk, the more they charged us until we got angry and said, no, you’re robbing us and then everything came fine and they looked after us and I got back to England and mom and, dad and two sisters met me at the railway station and mom was, couldn’t stop crying cause they got a telegram and I’ve got a copy of the telegram that said, regret to report that your son was, is missing, reported as missing in action and I said they made enquiries for several weeks and months and they couldn’t find and mom came to conclusion I was dead. And then out of the blue this wonderful news for mom came and they were delighted, delighted and the family looked after me, the Americans looked after me and it was living at home, making the best you could, and I had a bit of money as I said, from the British army and I was, everybody drank champagne [laughs].
JM: And your squadron, 429,
RD: Ey?
JM: 429 Squadron
RD: 429 Squadron, 6 Group
JM: Yes
RD: Bomber Command
JM: Yes, and was that the Lancaster Squadron?
RD: Canadian Squadron
JM: Yeah
RD: And they were Halifax bombers
JM: They were Halifax bombers
RD: Yes.
JM: How did you feel about flying the Halifax? Did you like it?
RD: Everybody used to say the Lancaster was the pride of the joy of the Bomber Command, no way, I would put all my faith in this Halifax, it could, it got, I mean, I was actually part and parcel of the truth of the matter, got badly shot up and the aircraft stood all the battering we’d got, from being shot up and I got shot down and purely because one of the [unclear] had been damaged and I couldn’t manoeuvre the aircraft, we had to bail out. And it was bailed out and it was, I thought I was dead. I bailed out and with the flames were shooting across the aircraft, and I thought, if I, when I bail out, if I pull the ripcord, the burning petrol may go into the parachute, and it’ll burn and I’ll die, so I said, I’ll count to ten when I bail out, and I started to count and I got to six and I, I didn’t panic, I just said, bugger it, I’m pulling the ripcord, and I said, I got out and pulled the ripcord, and I said, it was a delight really but I said, it was frightening because I was sure I was dead, because when I opened my eyes, I could see me feet, where me head should be, and I thought, it can’t be, your feet should be at the ground, I’m going to Heaven, and then I realised that the harness of the parachute, me leg was trapped in the harness and I was upside down, I was upside down in me parachute, and I was delighted, blowing me whistle, shouting me name, and then I got out, the Americans picked us up, put me in this school house and the American, I got, money from the British and the Americans took me to Northern Belgium and left me.
JM: Ron, you’ve given us a lovely interview, you’ve given us a lovely interview, you’ve told us so much about [unclear]
RD: Is that alright?
JM: I’m gonna leave it there for tonight because I can see it’s tiring you so I’ll leave it there thanks on behalf of IBCC.
RD: Any time you want to come back.
JM: Thank you
RD: Because there must be a thousand stories about flying and that sort of thing and me family now know the story living in [unclear] Nuremberg and
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Dawson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Julian Maslin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-07
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ADawsonR171107
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:43:44 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Luxembourg
Germany--Nuremberg
France--Ardennes
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Dawson flew over 40 operations with 429 Squadron as air gunner. He joined the Air Training Corps at the age of sixteen. He trained on Ansons and Boulton Paul Defiants and remembers flying in the Whitley. He crewed up at Leicester airport. Tells of being attacked by enemy fighters twice. Gives a vivid and detailed account of when he was shot down on the way back from Nuremberg. They all bailed out but while the rest of the crew was arrested, he found his way to the Luxembourg border and was taken up by the Resistance. He was then taken to the house of a man called Ferdie Schulz and he stayed there from May 1944 to the 7th of June 1944. From Luxembourg he went to Belgium, where he hid in the Ardennes forest with other people from different countries, until the invasion started and they were then liberated by the Americans, who after questioning them regarding their identity, let him go to fend off on his own. After the war, Ron became a police officer.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-04-30
1944-04-31
1944-05
1944-06-07
1945
429 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
Defiant
evading
Halifax
Resistance
shot down
training
Whitley