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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/21/68/Memoro 15628.1.mp3
8c81fb9a1dccb84e06f78347255c9c39
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Description
An account of the resource
18 items. The collection consists of interviews with German bombing survivors originally videotaped by Memoro, an international non-profit project and open archive of audio or video interviews of people born before 1950. The IBCC Digital Archive would like to express its gratitude to Nikolai Schulz (Memoro - Die Bank der Erinnerungen e.V) for granting permission to reproduce and transcribe the testimonies. To see them in their original video form please visit www.memoro.org/de-de/.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC staff
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JS: Also ich bin Jahrgang 1936. Meine bewussten Kindheitserinnerungen, an die man sich so erinnert, sind eigentlich Kriegszeitenerinnerungen. Als der Krieg begann war ich drei Jahre alt, als er aufhörte war ich etwa neun. Und, ja, das war Alltag. Man konnte sich gar nicht vorstellen das es was anderes, das es eine andere Zeit geben könnte, ohne Bombenalarm, in den Keller runterlaufen, in den Bunker hasten, ohne diese Leuchtspuren am Himmel, ohne Artillerieabwehrfeuer in der Nacht, wecken durch Alarm, schnell noch die Oberkleidung anziehen, denn man schlief ja halb angezogen, das gehörte also zur Überlebensstrategie. [alarm clock goes off] Dann schnappte ich mein kleines Köfferchen, wo ich meine drei, sieben Sachen drin hatte, und einen kleinen Rucksack, Oma, Opa war ja wieder eingezogen, aber nicht als Soldat sondern war bei der SHD, bei der Schutz- und Hilfstruppe, und Oma nahm den schweren Rucksack und wir hasteten zum Bunker, der war ungefähr, fusslaüfig, fast ‘n Kilometer entfernt. Und ich weiss noch eines Nachts, Oma fiel, und Oma konnte allein mit dem schweren Rucksack kam sie nicht richtig hoch, die Leute hasteten vorbei. Ich rief, helft doch der Oma, helft doch der Oma. Es hat so lange gedauert bis dann jemand angehalten hat im Lauf und der Oma aufgeholfen hat, damit wir in den Bunker kamen. Ich hatte einen kleinen Hitler, so aus Pappmaché, angemalt, [showing the puppet’s raised arm] der war abgebrochen, das war für mich damals schon als Kind, als Kind, war das für mich schon ein Verlust. Wurde immer wieder angeklebt, aber fiel immer wieder langsam runter. Symbolisch eine durchaus bedeutsame Geste. Die Fliegerangriffe waren furchtbar. Man saß im Keller als der Barmen Angriff kam. Das werde ich nie im Leben vergessen, Licht ging aus, die Einschläge waren sehr sehr nahe zu hören, das Haus bebte, alle hatten Angst, alle, schrien zum Teil. Die Männer gingen behertzt schon nach oben und guckten, na ist in der Nahe etwas eingeschlagen? aber es war ja Barmen, das erste Wuppertaler Ziel. Das zweite Wuppertaler Angriff auf Elberfeld wo wir wohnten haben wir nicht abgewartet sondern... Ich heisse Schauerte, die Schauertes sind im Sauerland so beheimatet wie Schmidts im Rheinland und wir haben eben auch Verwandte [emphasis] im Sauerland gehabt und zu dem ist meine Mutter die wiederverheiratet war, natürlich direkt nach der Trauung, mein Vater starb als ich einanviertel Jahr alt war an TBC, mein Stiefvater geheiratet, eingezogen, zweimal [emphasis] zum Heimaturlaub gekommen, daraus resultieren meine zwei Halbgeschwister und naturlich beim dritten Urlaub überhaupt nicht mehr wiedergekommen, vermisst. Also meine Mutter mit meinen zwei kleinen Geschwister, meine Oma und ich, wir evakuierten sag ich mal ins Sauerland und haben den Eberfelder Angriff gehört. Unser Haus hat überlebt, aber die Giebelwand zur linke Seite zum Nachbarhaus war völlig weg weil das Haus war also getroffen worden und es war ein Gründerzeit-Mietshaus gewesen, erste Etage wir wohnten, nebenan wohnten Ralenbecks, hatten die andere Zweizimmerwohnung, und die hatten keine, die guckten wenn man die Tür reinging, direkt ins Freie. Nun haben die dann bei uns gewohnt, bis wir aus dem Sauerland dann wiederkamen. Es war eine fürchterliche Zeit, kaum was zu essen, wir konnten aus dem Sauerland immer wieder was mitbringen, Hamsterfahrten, auch nach dem Krieg noch, mit meiner Mutter Hamsterfahrten gemacht. Ich, kleiner Bömsel [?] auch im Rucksack, und dann zu den Verwandten hin. Die Züge heillos überfüllt, heillos überfüllt, auf den Trittbrettern, in den Coupées hinein, auf den Puffern, überall fuhren die Menschen mit. Das war auch hinterher noch, als ich in die Stadtmitte zur Schule musste, mit der Strassenbahn zu fahren, wir sind nur auf den Außenleisten gestanden und haben den Eltern den Platz im Wagen gelassen. Das grösste Erlebnis für mich war, und dann will ich von auch dieser Zeit gar nicht mehr grossartig erzählen wir haben’s ja alle überlebt, mit Aussnahme meines Stiefvaters, war als Deutschland dann schliesslich am 8. Mai kapitulierte und an dem Abend meine Oma mir sagte, „Junge, du kannst dich, kannst ausziehen wenn Du ins Bett gehst, kommt kein Angriff mehr“. Das hab ich nicht glauben wollen. Ich hab mein Leibchen, war ein selbstgestricktes Ding da von der Oma, als Unterzeug, wo man auch an Strapsen die langen Strümpfe dran machen konnte, das war furchtbar, ein Horror für einen Jungen, weil das war fast wie Mädchen und so, aber dies Leibchen lies man natürlich zur Kriegszeiten nachts immer unter. Ich habe der Oma nicht geglaubt, ich hab das Leibchen druntergelassen di ersten Nächte. Dann stellte sich langsam doch der Glaube ein, das diese schlimme Zeit vorüber war.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interviews with Jaun Schauerte
Description
An account of the resource
Jaun Schauerte (b. 1936) recalls rushing to the shelter with a suitcase and a bag pack. Remembers one night when his grandmother fell under the heavy weight of the rucksack and nobody stopped to help her. Recalls the Bremen bombing, while he was inside a shelter; being evacuated to the Sauerland with his relatives; the Elberfeld bombing and how their house survived the attack unscathed. Recounts anecdotes of a small Hitler figure made of papier-mâché; wartime hardships; trips to get supplies and overcrowded trains. Describes the end of wartime precautions on the evening Germany surrendered.
Date
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2016-06-09
Format
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00:07:07 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#15628
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Bremen
Germany--Wuppertal
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. Die Bank der Erinnerungen
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Rights
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This content has been originally published on Memoro – Die Bank der Erinnerungen, which has kindly granted the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive a royalty-free permission to publish it as an audio track. To see it in its original video form and read the terms and conditions of use, please visit www.memoro.org and then click on the link to the German section. Please note that it was recorded by a third-party organisation which used technical specifications and operational protocols that may differ from those used by International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. It has been published here ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre.
Language
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deu
Subject
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World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
License
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Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
shelter
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/192/3573/AJahnichenW180314.1.mp3
9c173e93f2f85dfff4ecb6704a84ed55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Jähnichen, Wolfgang
W Jähnichen
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Wolfgang Jähnichen, a survivor of the 13 February 1945 Dresden Bombing. He recollects various episodes of the firestorm and elaborates on the legitimacy of the attack within the context of the bombing war.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-03-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Jähnichen, W
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PS: Bevor wir anfangen, bitte ich Sie folgende Fragen zu beantworten, damit wir sicher sind, dass dieses Interview nach Ihren Wünschen sowie den Bedingungen unserer Sponsoren gemäß registriert wird. Sind Sie damit einverstanden, dass dieses Interview als eine öffentlich zugängliche Quelle aufbewahrt wird, die für Forschung, Erziehung, online und in Ausstellungen verwendet werden kann? Ja oder nein?
WJ: Ja.
PS: Danke. Das dieses Interview unter einer nichtkommerziellen Creative Commons Attributionslizenz, die mit den Buchstaben CC-BY-NC dass heisst das sie nicht für kommerzielle zwecke benutzt werden darf, das dieses Interview öffentlich zugänglich gemacht wird? Ja oder nein?
WJ: Ja.
PS: Danke. Dass Sie als Urheber und Author des Interviews anerkannt werden? Ja oder nein?
WJ: Ja.
PS: Danke. Sind Sie bereit, der Universität das Copyright Ihres Beitrags zur Verfügung zu stellen, damit es zu jedem Zweck verwendet werden kann, und sind Sie aber dessen bewußt, dass es nicht Ihren moralischen Anspruch beeinträchtigen wird, als Urheber des Interviews identifiziert zu werden, dem Copyright, Design und Patentsgesetz 1988 gemäss? Ja oder nein?
WJ: Ehm, ich habe eine Zwischenfrage.
PS: Ja.
WJ: Auf welche Universität bezieht sich das?
PS: Das ist die Universität Lincoln, in England.
WJ: Ist das eine private Universität oder eine staatliche?
PS: Das ist eine staatliche Universität.
WJ: Ok, ich bin bereit, ja. Die Antwort lautet ja.
PS: Danke. Ich füge noch hinzu dass, ich kann Ihnen noch zusätzlich eine E-mail schicken mit weitere Informationen zum Projekt, auch ein Link zu dem Projekt, es gibt schon ein Besucherzentrum und das Archiv wird in einen Monat, knapp einen Monat online [unclear].
WJ: [coughs] Ok.
PS: Ich bitte sie jetzt um fünf Minuten, fünf Sekunden, sagen wir,
WJ: Zeit.
PS: Nein, Schweigen damit der Techniker.
WJ: Ja. Alles klar.
PS: Gut, jetzt, also fangen wir an. Dieses Interview wird für das International Bomber Command Digital Archive durchgeführt, das an der Universität Lincoln angesiedelt und vom Heritage Lottery Fund finanziert wird. Der Interviewer ist Peter Schulze, der befragte ist Herr Wolfgang Jähnichen. Heute ist der 14 März 2018. Wir danken Herr Jähnichen dass er bereit ist, sich interviewn su lassen. Ehm, also, Herr Jähnichen, wenn Sie mir erstmal von ihren früheren Leben erzählen können, wo Sie geboren sind und aufgewachsen, Ihrem Elternhaus, die ältesten Erinnerungen die Sie haben.
WJ: Ja. Ich bin 1939 in Dresden geboren und dort auch aufgewachsen und haben in einen Einfamilienhaus in Dresden Gruna gelebt und habe bei diesem, in diesem Einfamilienhaus auch den Terrorangriff der Britischen Air Force vom 13 Februar 1945 persönlich miterlebt und sehr gut in Erinnerung. Ich bin dann ausgebombt worden, bin anschliessend dann zur Schule gegangen, habe an der Internatsschule des Dresdner Kreuzchores mein Abitur gemacht, Altsprachlich, Latein und Griechisch, habe dann in Hannover auf der Technischen Hochschule studiert Bau- und Verkehrswesen, war dann persönlicher, persönlicher Referent des Vorstandsvorsitzenden der Hamburger Hochbahn, anschliessend Gründungsgeschäftsführer einer Tochtergesellschaft der Rheinischen Bahn, die sich mit U-Bahnbau beschäftigt, war dann Abteilungsdirektor Verkehroberfläche der Hamburger Hochbahn und gleichzeitig Betriebsleiter und Sicherheitsbeauftragter und war bis zu meiner Pensionierung Geschäftsführer der Leipziger Verkehrsbetriebe und in Personalunion des Mitteldeutschen Verkehrsverbundes. Anschliessend bin ich dann, anschliessend bin ich dann selbstständig als Berater von grossen und internationalen Verkehrsunternehmen tätig gewesen und derzeit bin ich ehrenamtlich in sieben Tätigkeiten da. Ich bin Vorsitzender einer grossen Deutschen Partei in einer Stadt mit 50,000 Einwohnern, bin dort Fraktionsvorsitzender, gehöre der Stadtverordnetenversammlung an, bin President eines Rotary-Clubes, bin Mitglied des Vorstandes der Deutschen Ingenieure VDI, bin Lesepate in einer Grundschule auf dem Wedding mit ausschliessich ausländischen Schülern und bin Mitglied vieler vieler andere Gemeinnütziger Gesellschaften, ich hoffe Ihnen damit genügend gesagt zu haben.
PS: Ich wollte vielleicht ein bisschen zurück gehen auf Ihr früheres Leben. Ob Sie mir eben ein bisschen von Ihrem Elternhaus erzählen können, in welcher Umgebung Sie aufgewachsen sind.
WJ: OK, ich bin, ja, ja, ich bin 1939 am zweiten August geboren und mein Vater war Rechtsanwalt, Dr. Hans-Georg Jähnichen, Fachanwalt für Steuerrecht. Und mein Vater wurde, als ich noch nicht ganz zwei Jahre alt war, zum Militär eingezogen und ist dann erst 1948 aus Russischer Kriegsgefangenschaft wieder zurückgekommen. In der Zeit von 1939 bis ‚45 habe ich in Dresden Gruna gelebt, in einem Einfamilienhaus bei meinen Grosseltern mit meiner Mutter und wir sind dort ausgebombt worden am 13 Februar 1945. Über verschiedene kleinere Orte sind wir dann bis zum Herbst, bis November 1945 da überall mal untergekommen und haben dann in Dresden Trachau 1945 im November eine Wohnung bekommen und dort habe ich gelebt bis zu meinem Abitur 1957, was ich an der Internatschule des Dresdner Kreuzchores altsprachlicher Zweig gemacht habe, mit acht Jahre Griechisch und vier Jahre Latein, umgekehrt, acht Jahre Latein, vier Jahre Griechisch.
PS: Wie war die Stimmung zuhause, also wie war, sagen wir, die Wahrnehmung der damaligen Zeit und des Regimes zu hause?
WJ: Ich stamme aus einer Familie die Sozialdemokraten sind, bei Ihnen würde man Labour sagen. Mein Grossvater war in dem Hitlerreich rausgeflogen weil er Sozialdemokrat war, hat dann im Hitlerreich Wiederstand geleistet. Meine Grossmutter hat mich beispielsweise im Kinderwagen gefahren und unter der Matratze hat sie Flugblätter gehabt und die hatt sie da illegal verteilt. Und mein Grossvater hat Wiederstand geleistet zusammen mit der Bekennenden Kirche, das ist eine Art der Evangelischen Kirche in Deutschland, die sich von den Deutschen Christen unterschied, zusammen mit Kommunisten, zusammen mit Zeugen Jehovas und also Wiederständlern. Mein Grossvater hat dann 1945 die Sozialdemokratische Partei in Dresden mitwiedergegründet und hat dann das Buch weggeschmissen als es in der Sowjetischen Besatzungszone zur Zwangsvereinigung von Sozialdemokratischer Partei und Kommunistischer Partei kam mit der Begründung, es kann nicht richtig sein dass die Kommunisten die Ziele und die Sozialdemokraten die Massen stellen. Daraufhin wurde er von den Kommunisten als Sozialfascist bezeichnet, das hat er nie überwunden, mit denen hat er selbst Wiederstand geleistet und deshalb bin ich in meiner Kindheit immer antikommunistisch erzogen worden, aber auch antifaschistisch. Antikommunistisch erzogen worden, Ich war nie Mitglied der Jungen Pioniere oder der Freien Deutschen Jugend, das sind die Jugendorganisationen der Kommunisten in Deutschland.
PS: Was, Ihr Grossvater hat nicht im Ersten Weltkrieg gekämpft.
WJ: Nein, da war er freigestellt, er war Stadtbaudirektor in Dresden.
PS: Was machte Ihre Mutter?
WJ: Meine Mutter war, hatte Gesang studiert und war Gesang- und Oratoriensängerin.
PS: Welche Erinnerungen, habe Sie irgendwelche Erinnerungen als kleines Kind vor dem,
WJ: Terrorangriff. Mein Vater war im Krieg, ich bin bei meinen Grosseltern und meiner Mutter gross geworden. Ich habe in Dresden gelebt, einer Stadt die bis zum 13 Februar ‚45 nie in Kriegsgeschehnisse einbezogen war. Lediglich im Oktober 1944 hat es mal einige ganz kleine Bombenabwürfe gegeben und da kann ich mit entsinnen da sind wir da aus Sensationslust hingeströmt und haben gesehen dass vier oder fünf Häuser kaputtgegangen sind, das war im Oktober 1944. Ich bin dann anschliessend mit meiner Mutter durch die Innenstadt gefahren, wir waren in der Frauenkirche, die ja auch in England sehr gut bekannt ist durch das Kreuz von Coventry und wie gesagt ich war ein wohlbehüteter Junge der, dem es relativ gut ging mit Aussnahme der politischen Überzeugungen und meine Grosseltern haben immer, da kann ich mich auch entsinnen, meine Grossmutter ist eine gebürtige Amerikanerin gewesen die dann einen Deutschen geheiratet hat und in Deutschland gelebt hat, die hat immer verbotenerweise, wir haben als Kinder gesagt, den Bum-Bum Sender gehört, das war BBC London, und das war in Deutschland verboten, da stand die Todestrafe drauf, sie hatt’s trotzdem gehört und ich durfte das als Kind nie wissen.
PS: Was, wie lebte man zu der Zeit, also, haben Sie Erinnerungen von den anderen Kinder, waren Sie in Kontakt mit anderen Kindern?
WJ: Ja, ich habe eine Sandkastenfreundin gehabt, die im Nebenhaus gewohnt hat. Wir haben in der Kriegszeit natürlich alles nur aus Lebensmittelmarken kaufen können aber es ging uns nicht schlecht, wie gesagt, wir wurden allerdings durch die Hitlerpolizei bespitzelt weil meine Grosseltern Sozialdemokraten waren. Wir mussten uns sehr aufpassen. Ich kann mich noch entsinnen, ich habe immer, wenn ich jemandem traf Guten Tag gesagt und man musste damals ‚Heil Hitler‘ sagen und das haben wir in unserer Familie nie gesagt. Und da ging ich mit meiner Mutter mal in Dresden spazieren oder einkaufen und da haben wir gegrüsst und da habe ich gesagt: ‚Guten Tag!‘. Und dann fing dieser Nationalsozialist an über meine Mutter herzufallen, ich war wie gesagt fünf Jahre, um zu sagen: ‚Frau Jähnichen, der Wolfgang, das ist mein Vorname, der muss doch den Deutschen Gruss sagen, ‚Heil Hitler‘ und so. Jedenfalls ich kannte das überhaupt nicht weil wir zuhause immer eben nur Guten Tag gesagt haben. Ich will damit nur mal unsere Einstellung zu dem Faschistischen Staat sagen.
PS: Welche andere Erinnerungen haben Sie an die Zeit?
WJ: Ich habe Erinnerungen dass Dresden eine wunderschöne Stadt war, mit vielen Flüchtlingen, die aus dem Osten gekommen waren, und zwar Anfang des Jahres 1945, als die Rote Armee, di Sowjetische Armee dann nach Ostpreussen und nach Schlesien kam, hatten wir in Dresden, Dresden ist eine Stadt gewesen damals 600,000 Einwohner, die hatte damals im Anfang 1945 statt 600,000 Einwohner eine Milion Einwohner, da waren viele Vertriebene, die aus den deutschen Ostgebieten gekommen sind. Es war eine völlig unzerstörte Stadt, wir haben im Krieg nie etwas erlebt bis dann der schlimme Bombenangriff vom 13 Februar 1942, 1945 kam. Das war ein Dienstag, ein Fassnacht oder Faschingsdienstag, ich kann mich entsinnen, ich war als Indianer verkleidet, wie man eben als Kind da so geht, und meine kleine Sandkastenfreundin war als Prima Ballerina verkleidet und wir haben sehr schön mit einander gespielt. Sind dann jeweils von einander unabhängig abends so gegen, was weiss ich, so gegen zwanzig Uhr zu Bett gegangen und ich wurde dann gegen einundzwanzig Uhr aus dem Schlaf gerissen, geweckt, weil Bombenalarm war aber ich nehme an da werden Sie extra noch Fragen dazu stellen.
PS: Ja, können Sie mir das eben jetzt so erzählen?
WJ: Ja, das kann ich Ihnen gerne sagen. Wie gesagt das war völlig neu für uns, wir hatten nie Bombenalarm in Dresden, das galt so quasi als der Luftschutzkeller Deutschlands, und die Sirenen heulten und ich wurde geweckt und wir sind in den Keller gegangen. In dem Keller, da waren wir drinnen ungefähr von einundzwanzig Uhr bis zweiundzwanzig Uhr dreisig, ohne das etwas passiert ist. Es gab ja mehrere Angriffe in Dresden, der erste Angriff war zwischen einundzwanzig Uhr, was weiss ich, zehn und einundzwanzig Uhr vierzig, so in dieser Zeit, da ist uns nichts passiert. Wohl aber ist die Wohnung meiner Eltern, in der wir nicht mehr wohnten, weil da Flüchtlinge aus Berlin drin waren, die ist total zerstört worden aber das hat uns relativ wenig tangiert denn wir wohnten bei meinen Grosseltern im Einfamilienhaus. Und dann, mein Grossvater war Stadtbaudirektor in Dresden, und er hörte dass die ganze Innenstadt brennt und das furchtbare Zerstörungen in Dresden sein sollen. Und dann, das habe ich nur so gehört von meinem Grossvater, passiert war in dem Stadtteil, in dem ich gelebt habe zum ersten Angriff nichts. Aber es kamen dann gegen Mitternacht, es kann auch ein Uhr gewesen sein, ein zweiter Angriff und diesen zweiten Angriff da wurde auch unser Haus getroffen, wir waren dann auch abermals in den Keller gegangen. Und dann meine Grossmutter war dann mal rausgegangen mitten in diesen Alarm und da sagte sie: ‚Unser Haus brennt! Unser Haus brennt!‘. Und dann sind wir fluchtartig aus dem Haus heraus, das Haus hatte eine schönen, grossen Garten. Und dann hatte ich so eine nasse Decke um, das hatte man damals so, und meine Grossmutter war neben mir und dann kamen Tiefflieger und diese Tiefflieger schossen auf uns. Das habe ich genau gehört und gesehen. Die flogen ganz ganz tief und sie schossen aus, entweder Maschinenpistolen oder Maschinengewehren, das weiss ich nicht. und da rief meine Grossmutter, mein Spitzname war damals Mell: ‚Mell, schmeiss dich hin!‘, da habe ich mich hingeworfen und da zischte es und da hatte ich mich auf Phosphor geworfen. Mir war aber deshalb nichts passiert weil ich eine nasse Decke um hatte aber es zischte, meine Grossmutter hat mich sofort wieder hochgezogen so dass mir also nichts passiert war. Offensichtlich hatten die Engländer auch Phosphor abgeworfen oder Phosphor Bomben abgeworfen und auf so eine Phosphorstelle hatte ich mich geworfen. Als dieser Bombenangriff dann zu Ende war, vielleicht eine halbe Stunde oder sowas dauerte das, die erste viertelstunde waren wir ja noch im Keller und dann brannte das Haus, dann waren wir draussen, sind wir aus der brennenden Stadt geflüchtet. Und ich kann mich entsinnen dass ich mit meiner Mutter und meinen Grosseltern über die Strassen gegangen bin und ich musste dann, wirklich im wasten Sinne des Wortes, über Leichen gehen. Die Strassen waren voller Leichen und wir sind dann in einen Vorort von Dresden, vielleicht zwanzig Kilometer zu Fuss geflüchtet und sind dann bei völlig fremden Leuten untergekommen. Meine Tante, die auch mit im Haus wohnte, konnte nicht da mitkommen, die hat dann am nächsten Tag erlebt, aber wie gesagt, das habe ich nicht erlebt, das habe ich nur durch Erzählen von Ihr, das gegen Mittag des 14 Februar, so gegen dreizehn Uhr, ein Angriff, aber nicht der Royal Air Force sondern der American Air Force stattgefunden hatte, als das brennende Dresden nochmals bombardiert worden ist. Und bei dieser Gelegenheit ist das Wahrzeichen der Stadt, die Frauenkirche, die jetzt wieder aufgebaut worden ist, auch in Schutt und Asche versunken.
PS: Wenn Sie noch etwas hinzufügen, können Sie auch ruhig frei weitersprechen.
WJ: Na das sind, ich bin dann, wir sind dann geflüchtet in ein Vorort, sind von ganz fremden Menschen aufgenommen worden und ich war so verstört als fünfeinhaldjähriges Kind, ich habe 14 Tage kein Wort mehr gesprochen. Meine Mutter hat schon gedacht ich hätte irgendwie einen geistigen Schaden, ich habe 14 Tage kein Wort mehr gesprochen. Mir geht’s heute noch so, wenn Sirenen heulen, läuft mir ein kalter Schauer den Rücken runter. Und ich werde den Geruch des brennenden Dresdens nie aus meiner Nase heraus bekommen, ich werde diese Zeit in bis zu meinem Tode werde ich immer daran denken, das war das bis dahin für mich schlimmste Erlebnis meines Lebens. Und habe an diese Zeit ganz ganz traurige Erinnerungen weil ich praktisch aus einem geborgenen Einfamilienhaus wo wir recht gut gelebt haben trotz des Faschismus, der natürlich schlimm war, da gibt es gar keine Frage, wir mussten also, nur das habe ich als Kind nicht so gemerkt, aber meine Grosseltern, meine Mutter mussten sich immer vor den Nazis vorsehen, das sie nicht angezeigt wurden. Wie gesagt, meine Grossmutter hörte immer BBC London und das war natürlich verboten. Und aber wir haben in dieser Zeit in der andere deutsche Städte, ich denke Hamburg, Berlin, das Ruhrgebiet, Köln und wie auch immer schon zerstört waren, war Dresden nichts, alles intakt. Und erst am 13 Februar 1945 kamen diese schlimmen Angriffe, erst der Engländer und dann der Amerikaner. Ich bin mir bewusst, aber erst, natürlich erst nachdem ich in der Schule war, dass diese Gewalt, die da gegen die Zivilbevölkerung von Dresden ausgeübt worden ist seitens der British Air Force und der American Air Force darauf zurückgeht das Hitlerdeutschland den Krieg angefangen hat und das Hitlerdeutschland auch vorneweg Coventry und Rotterdam, nur mal um zwei Beispiele zu nennen, auch bombardiert hat und das dort ebenfalls Engländer beziehungsweise Holländer ebenfalls gestorben sind und ein ähnliches Schicksal erlitten haben, wie wir es dann, oder wie ich es dann 1945 erlitten habe. Ich sehe deshald den Krieg als eine ganz ganz schlimme, deshalb bin ich auch Sozialdemokrat, eine schlimme Sache an und werde aber nicht hingehen und sagen: ‚Nur die einen sind Schuld, nur die anderen sind Schuld‘, beide sind Schuld, aber den Krieg angefangen haben die Nazis, die natürlich noch viel viel schlimmere Verbrechen auf ihren Kerbholz haben. Ich denke beispielsweise daran dass jeder der Mosaischen Glaubens war, verfolgt und getötet wurde. Mein Vater hatte beispielsweise, er hat, er war Jurist und war mit vielen Juden befreundet und die gingen dann alle im Laufe der Naziherrschaft weg und ich kann mit entsinnen dass meine Mutter mit mir in der Strassenbahn in Dresden fuhr und da durften, das muss ‚42 gewesen sein, durften Juden noch mitfahren, mussten aber auf den Paron stehen, also durften sich nicht auf Sitzplätze setzen. Und da hat meine Mutter, als Solidarität, mit mir sich zu ihren Jüdischen Freunden gestellt und ist ebenfalls nicht in den Wagon hineingegangen sondern hat auf den Paron gestanden und hat mir dann, ich wusste gar nicht warum das ist, hat mir das erklärt was man diesen Jüdischen Mitbürgern für schlimme Sachen seitens der Naziregierung antut.
PS: Ja, ich wollte, wir kommen dann zu einiger dieser Themen wieder zurück, ich wollte jetzt zurück gehen zu einigen Sachen die Sie mir früher erzählt haben.
WJ: Ja bitte.
PS: Zum Beispiel der Luftschutzkeller.
WJ: Ja.
PS: Können Sie mir erzählen, wo war dieser Luftschutzkeller, wie hatten Sie Zugang, Sie und andere Menschen, wie hatten Sie Zugang zu diesem Luftschutzkeller?
WJ: Das war ein Einfamilienhaus und der Keller war als Luftschutzkeller deklariert, das war ein ganz normaler Keller. Wir sind aus dem, wir haben gewohnt im Erdgeschoss und der Ersten und Zweiten Etage und, als dann dieser Bombenalarm kam, sind wir in den Keller gegangen. Und, ja, und da hörten wir immer es krachen, und da Bomben fielen aber wir wussten natürlich nicht wo das war und dann ist ich glaube meine Mutter mal rausgegangen und hat mal geguckt, und hat dann gesehen dass das Haus über uns lichterloh brannte, so dass wir dann aus dem Luftschutzkeller herausgekommen sind, nicht durch die kleinen Luftschutzkellerfenster sondern noch über das Treppenhaus, das heisst, es brannte das Haus nur in der ersten Etage und in der zweiten Etage. Wir sind also noch während des Angriffes, sind wir noch aus dem Haus herausgekommen.
PS: Da gab es keinen Luftschutzwart, der euch hineinließ?
WJ: Es gab mit Sicherheit einen Luftschutzwart der spielte nur keine Rolle. Denn, es war, natürlich musste damals jedes Haus eine Luftschutzeinrichtung haben aber bei uns im Einfamilienhaus war das der ganz einfache Keller. Das hat der Luftschutzwart mit Sicherheit schon einmal begutachtet aber das war ein ganz normaler Keller eines Einfamilienhauses. Und wir sind nicht, weil der Luftschutzwart da irgendwie etwas gesagt hatte, in den Keller gegangen, sondern weil die Sirenen heulten.
PS: Hatten Sie, erinnern Sie sich ob Sie Angst hatten im Luftschutzkeller oder ihre Mutter?
WJ: Ja, ich hatte furchtbare Angst weil dieser Keller ja nur diese kleinen Kellerfenster hatte. Und ich habe richtige Angst gehabt, wenn ich durch diese Fenster raus muss komme ich da überhaupt durch, habe ich eine Riesenangst gehabt. Aber, wie gesagt, ich musste nicht über diese Fenster heraus sondern ich bin ganz normal über die Kellertreppe zur Haustur heraus aber das Haus über uns brannte schon.
PS: Und auch Ihre Mutter hatte Angst oder?
WJ: Mit Sicherheit aber wer hat damals nicht Angst? Das war ja, Sie müssen sich vorstellen Dresden war eine Stadt im Gegensatz zu Hamburg, zum Ruhrgebiet, zu Berlin, die noch nie einen Luftangriff erlebt hatte. Für die Hamburger, so blöd es klingt jetzt, Herr Schulze, war das schon Routine, weil die Berliner hatten praktisch alle zwei Tage so einen Luftschutzangriff, die gingen routinemässig schon in den Keller. Ich kann Ihnen auch sagen, Dresden hatte keine Luftschutzbunker, im Sinne von Hochbauten, wie sie beispielsweise in Berlin und in Hamburg heute noch anzutreffen sind aus Beton, das gab es alles in Dresden nicht. Dresden war eine unbefestigte Stadt. Ich kann mir nur deshalb vorstellen dass Dresden, dass man Dresden bombardiert hat, aus zwei Gründen. Erstens, es war ein Verkehrsknotenpunkt und alles was aus dem Osten kam, aus Breslau [coughs] und Königsberg in Richtung Westen und Süden ging über Dresden. Es war also ein wichtiger Verkehrsknotenpunkt. Zweitens, man wollte die Moral des deutschen Volkes brechen. Man muss fairaweise sagen dass viele Deutsche dem Hitler zugejubelt haben und diese Angriffe, die natürlich Terrorangriffe waren, da gibt es gar keine Frage, aber diese Angriffe sollten auch die Moral der Deutschen brechen, die ja teilweise noch bis kurz vor Kriegsende dem Hitler zugejubelt haben [coughs], man darf ja nicht vergessen dass viele deutsche, wie gesagt, wir gehörten nicht dazu, den, doch den Nazis nahestehend waren.
PS: Konnen Sie mir etwas von den, Sie haben vorher von den Tieffliegern gesprochen.
WJ: Ja, wir kamen aus den Keller raus, das Haus brannte lichterloh, es war also hell obwohl es abends so, nachts so gegen eins war, also es war nach Mitternacht, da man sah alles genau, das Haus brannte, die Nebenhaüser brannten, also es war nicht dunkle Nacht. Es war natürlich dunkle Nacht, aber durch die Brände war natürlich alles hell. Und dann sind wir in den Garten gegangen weil unser Haus brannte und, das habe ich Ihnen gesagt, da kamen die Tiefflieger und da haben wir uns hingeworfen und diese Tiefflieger und das weiss ich definitiv haben auf uns geschossen. Die wissenschaftlichen Forscher sagen: ‚Nein, das ist nicht so‘. Ich kann es aber wirklich bezeugen, dass die auf uns geschossen haben [mimics the noise of a machine gun]. Und das kann nur von oben gekommen sein denn es gab ja keine Panzer und keine Infanterie. Das waren Schüsse, ich kann Ihnen nicht sagen ob es ein Maschinengewehr oder eine Maschinenpistole war, das weiss ich nicht, aber es waren Maschinenschüsse, Maschinengewehrschüsse und die konnten nur von den Flugzeugen kommen weil es ja keine, keine Kampfhandlungen auf der Strasse gab, es gab ja keine Panzer und dergleichen mehr die da irgendwie da in Dresden einmarschiert sind, das ist ja erst, das war ja dann erst die Russen am 7 Mai 1945, aber wir sprechen ja über den 13 Februar.
PS: Sie haben mir auch von Ihrer, sagen wir, von der Erfahrung mit den Phosphorbomben gesprochen.
WJ: Womit bitte?
PS: Mit dem Phosphor.
WJ: Phosphor, ja. Ich habe, da müssen irgendwelche Phosphorbomben abgeworfen worden sein, die allerdings nicht das, also mit Sicherheit hat unser Haus gebrannt dadurch dass Phosphorbomben geworfen worden sind, aber nicht alle Phosphorbomben haben das Haus getroffen. Es sind auch im Garten Phosphorbomben da gefallen, da so genau kann man die ja auch nicht zielen, die sind ja aus grosser Höhe gekommen. Und auf so eine Phosphorbombe habe ich mich hingeworfen weil die Tiefflieger kamen, das heisst also die Phosphorbombe muss schon eher aus grosser Höhe abgeworfen worden sein, ein Teil der Phosphorbomben haben das Haus getroffen, ein Teil nur den Garten. Und auf diese Phosphorbomben die im Garten gefallen waren, auf die hatte ich mich hingeworfen und das zischte und da hat mich meine Grossmutter zurückgezogen und mir ist deshalb nichts passiert weil ich rein profilaktisch eine nasse Decke hatte. Es zischte nur furchtbar, ich habe damals als fünfeinhalbjähriger gar nicht gewusst was Phosphor ist, das haben mir dann erst, haben mir meine Grosseltern und meine Mutter erst erzählt. Ich habe nur gemärkt es zischte und meine Grossmutter hat mich sofort geschnappt und hochgezogen. Aber wir haben uns deshalb hingeworfen weil die Tiefflieger kamen. Ich kann mich auch entsinnen dass wir regerlrecht die Kanzel gesehen haben. Die müssen in einer Höhe, was weiss ich, von fünfzig Meter oder so etwas geflogen sein, aber wie gesagt auf die fünfzig Meter möchte ich mich nicht festlegen, denn ich war damals ein Junge von knapp sechs Jahren und kann das nun nicht so genau schätzen aber es waren Tiefflieger, ich habe die Cockpits gesehen. Und wir sind daraus beschossen worden, nun weiss ich nicht ob wir aus dem Cockpit beschossen worden sind oder aus dem Heck, das weiss ich nicht. Aber wir sind von diesen Tieffliegern beschossen worden. Und zwar mit so, mit Feuerstössen [mimics the sound of the maschine gun] also nicht nur irgendwie mal einen Schuss und so etwas.
PS: Jetzt wo Sie sich an diese Episode erinnern,
WJ: Wie bitte?
PS: Jetzt wo Sie sich an die Vergangenheit erinnern, kommen Ihnen bestimmte Bilder von Gebäuden vor, oder?
WJ: Ja, ja, ich werde nie vergessen wie, also ich kenne natürlich unser Einfamilienhaus im unversehrten Zustand und wir haben ja dann anschliessend in Dresden gelebt und Dresden ist ja erst, zehn Jahre später hat man angefangen wieder Dresden etwas aufzubauen in der Stadt. Die ersten zehn Jahre nach Kriegsende war Dresden eine reine Ruinenstadt in der Innenstadt. Es gab in der Innestadt quasi kein intaktes Haus mehr, in den Vorstädten ja aber in der Innenstadt die Strassenbahn fur durch, im Anfang konnte die Strassenbahn gar nicht fahren, das ist klar, weil ja die Trümmer überall lagen, aber dann nach ungefähr, nach sagen wir mal vierzehn Tagen, drei Wochen fuhr dann die Strassenbahn wieder aber die ganze Innenstadt war ein einziges Trümmerfeld. Und ich kann mich auch entsinnen, wie auf den Altmarkt, der Altmarkt ist der Hauptplatz von Dresden, ich glaube drei oder vier Tage später, Gerüste aus Stahl aufgestellt worden sind wo die Leichen verbrannt worden sind. Man, wir hatten damals als ich Kind war gehört das es in dieser einen Nacht in Dresden 35,000 Tote gegeben hat, neueste Berechnungen haben gesagt es sind nicht 35,000 sondern 25,000 gewesen aber Sie können sich vorstellen und es spielt jetzt keine Rolle ob 25 oder 35,000 Tote da sind, das die lagen ja überall rum und die wurden dann am Altmarkt da aufgestapelt, das war alles abgesperrt und wurden dann dort, ich sag mal, wie ein Freilichtkrematorium dort verbrannt und die Asche dieser dort verbrannten ist dort auf den Heidefriedhof in Dresden in ein Massengrab beigesetzt worden. Jedes Jahr findet am 13 Februar in Dresden eine Gedenkveranstaltung an die Toten des 13 Februar statt, auf dem Friedhof. Leider wird diese Gedenkveranstaltung von der AFD, das ist eine rechtsextremistische Partei, dazu genutzt um hier Stimmung gegen England und gegen die Alliierten zu machen. Natürlich war das nicht schön was da passiert ist, das war ganz ganz schlimm aber diese heute stattfindenden Demonstrationen vergessen immer dass es Deutschland war, was den Krieg angefangen hat.
PS: Also jetzt wollte ich Sie auch nochmal, eben zu diesen Thema wollte ich Sie eben fragen,
WJ: Ja bitte.
PS: Haben Sie noch etwas hinzuzufügen über Ihre, sagen wir, Ihre Ansichten, wie Sie das jetzt, ehm, wie Sie das jetz heute sehen? Zurück auf die Zeit eben.
WJ: Ich, Ja aber da hat sich nichts geändert denn ich komme aus einer Antifaschistischen Familie. Wir haben immer gewusst dass Hitlerdeutschland den Krieg angefangen hat. Und das was uns passiert ist haben wir Deutsche anderen Völkern auch angetan, so das man nicht hingehen kann, das man sagt: ‚Das ist die Schuld der Engländer oder der Amerikaner‘, das ist genauso unsere Schuld die wir als deutsche den Krieg angefangen haben. Wissen Sie, ich bin als Deutscher stolz auf unsere deutsche Vergangenheit, auf Beethoven, Goethe, Schiller, aber ich muss mich auch dazu bekennen, das eben auch es Deutsche waren, Verbrecher waren die den zweiten Weltkrieg ausgelöst haben, die Juden verbrannt haben, alles das, dieses Unrecht ist ja damals von deutschen Boden ausgegangen. Das darf man nicht vergessen bei dieser ganzen Sache. Natürlich ist das ganz ganz schlimm was passiert ist und deshalb sag ich, ich bin ja jetzt ein Mann von achtundziebzig Jahren, desshalb wende ich mich ganz aktiv gegen die Machenschaften der AfD und anderer rechtsradikaler Parteien in Deutschland.
PS: Ich wollte Sie noch fragen, Ihre Erfahrung als Ausgebombter,
WJ: Ja.
PS: Gibt es eine Verbindung zwischen, ehm, hat Ihre Erfahrung als Ausgebombter eine wichtige Rolle gespielt für Ihre Ideale, für Ihre, sagen wir, politische Ideen, gibt es eine Verbindung?
WJ: Ja. Nein, nein, da nicht aber als wir ausgebombt waren, da waren wir natürlich Menschen zweiter Klasse. Das heisst also wir haben keine Wohnung gehabt, wir, es gab ja auch nichts zu kaufen. Wir haben da rumgeirrt, sind dann in der Umgebung von Dresden in einem Kinderheim untergekommen, das heisst ich habe vielleicht ein halbes Jahr oder ein dreiviertel Jahr überhaupt kein Zuhause gehabt, wir haben da mal im Kinderheim geschlafen, mal dort geschlafen, erst dann haben wir durch Zufall eine Wohnung wieder bekommen. Dann natürlich war man als Kind dann, ich sag mal, neidisch auf die die nicht ausgebombt waren. Aber ich bin ja durch meine Eltern immer so erzogen worden, wer Sturm säht, wer Wind säht wird Sturm ernten. Das heisst also, dass hier man nicht von einer Schuld sprechen kann, näturlich ist es für mich schwer zu ertragen oder halte ich es für falsch dass Ihre Queen den Harris ausgezeichnet hat, das halte ich für eine sehr schlechte Art, das ist das einzige was ich den Engländern regelrecht übelnehme. Weil der Bomber Harris das alles angeordnet hat, dass er das machen musste, habe ich Verständnis aber ihn dann noch dafür auszuzeichnen, das halte ich für schlimm gegenüber den Opfern die durch diese Bomber zu Tode gekommen sind. Wie gesagt, den Grund weshalb die Bomber nach Deutschland gekommen sind, der Grund ist in Deutschland zu suchen, das ist richtig, aber trotzdem halte ich es für falsch wenn man so jemandem, der wirklich darauf ausgesehen hatte, drauf abgesehen hatte, die Zivilbevölkerung zu töten, nicht irgendwie ein General Montgomery und so, Hochachtung dafür gibt’s überhaupt nichts, aber der Harris hat ja bewusst die Bevölkerung, das war natürlich eins der Kriegsziele, das muss man sagen, den auszuzeichnen, halte ich für schwer, einen schweren Fehler den die Queen gemacht hat. Wie gesagt, Hochachtung vor Montgomery, Hochachtung vor Winston Churchill, gibt’s überhaupt gar keine Frage, der eine als Militär, der andere als Politiker, haben sich völlig korrekt verhalten. Aber diejenigen die dann diese schlimme Vernichtung der Zivilbevölkerung befohlen haben, die noch auszuzeichnen, dass sie das machen mussten, dafür habe ich auch Verständnis, aber sie noch auszuzeichnen, sie zu adeln, das halte ich für einen ganz ganz gravierenden Fehler den die Queen gemacht hat oder genauer gesagt, den die Berater der Queen gemacht haben, in dem sie die Queen animiert haben, den Harris auszuzeichnen. Dass er seine Arbeit machen musste, dafür habe ich Verständnis, aber ihn dann noch auszuzeichnen das halte ich für falsch. Das wäre dasselbe, als würde man im Mittelalter einen Henker auszeichnen, ein Henker der musste seine Arbeit machen die, die Richter haben das so aufgeordnet, der wird aufgehängt, und der Henker hat das machen müssen aber da wird doch nie jemandem auf den Gedanken gekommen sein, den Henker auszuzeichnen. Also das ist für mich ein ganz ganz schwerer Fehler ihrer Queen gewesen. Die Auszeichnung. Bitte, ich habe vollstes, vollste Hochachtung vor Montgomery, beispielsweise vor Churchill, vollste Hochachtung und das ist auch einen geben musste, der diese Befehle ausgeführt hat, wie Harris, auch dafür habe ich Verständnis, aber ihn noch auszuzeichnen, der wirklich die Bevölkerung da getötet hat, nicht ermordet hat, getötet hat, das halte ich für schwer, einen gravierenden Fehler. Aber ich will nicht derjenige sein, der im Glasshaus sitzt und so tun, als hätten die Deutschen nicht ebenfalls gravierende Fehler gemacht. Natürlich, auch das, nur Sie haben mich gefragt nach meiner Erinnerung.
PS: Gut, also ich, ich würde jetzt Schluss machen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Wolfgang Jähnichen
Description
An account of the resource
Wolfgang Jähnichen recollects being a five-year-old boy in Dresden at the time of the 13 February 1945 bombing. Gives a vivid account of the attack and recounts various episodes: the time spent with his mother in the cellar used as air raid shelter, being strafed by aircraft, incendiaries, corpses piled up and cremated in the Old Market Square, and the city flooded by refugees. Describes growing up in a socialist environment mentioning different anecdotes: resisting the regime within the Confessing Church, subversive propaganda leaflets, and listening to Radio London. Discusses the political exploitation of the bombing today and criticises the knighthood bestowed on Arthur Harris, comparing the decision to knighting a medieval hangman for just doing his job. Elaborates on the bombing, dubbed as ‘terror attack’, but stresses German responsibility in starting the war. Mentions Coventry and Rotterdam, emphasizing how civilians supported he regime until the end of the war. Describes how the attack shocked and caught everyone off guard because it was completely unexpected, unlike cities like Berlin and Hamburg where air raids had become part of everyday life. Stresses how Dresden was considered an open city, unprepared and undefended. Gives two justifications for the bombing of Dresden: it was a legitimate target as transport hub and the the operation was intended to beak German morale - he was so shocked that he didn’t utter a single word for two weeks. Remembers hardships and homelessness at the end of the war. Tells how the stench of burning Dresden still haunts him, and the sound of the siren still sends shivers down his spine.
Creator
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Peter Schulze
Date
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2018-03-14
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:51:44 audio recording
Language
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deu
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Germany--Dresden
Temporal Coverage
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1945-02-13
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Conforms To
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Pending review
Identifier
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AJahnichenW180314
anti-Semitism
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
childhood in wartime
civil defence
displaced person
evacuation
home front
incendiary device
perception of bombing war
shelter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/693/9240/PBarnettWE1701.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/693/9240/ABarnettWE170328.1.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Barnett, William Edwin
W E Barnett
Description
An account of the resource
an oral history interview with William Barnett (b. 1924). He grew up close to RAF Westcott and was nearly killed when a Lancaster crashed. He served in the Royal Navy 1946 - 1952.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-03-28
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Barnett, WE
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 28th of March 2017 and we are in Woodham, near Aylesbury and I’m talking with William Edwin Barnett about his days in the war as a resident on the edge of the airfield at Westcott. So, Eddie, what are your earliest recollections of life?
WEB: Well, earliest recollections really is going to school at Westcott School and I went to, you know, walked to, down to the village and get educated there. And from there we were then transferred to Waddesdon and that’s where I finished my education, in Waddesdon. So that’s as far as that goes.
CB: And what did your father do?
WEB: My father was a signalman on the railway and he, all during the war, he was at Ashendon Junction signal box
CB: Right. So, which railway was that?
WEB: That was like, that’s, I don’t know the railway, that’s the Oxford, is that the Oxford one? It goes, anyway, it goes below Ashendon Hills
CB: Yes
WEB: And on its way to Oxford and [unclear] perhaps I used to come from there through to here, Woodham and
CB: Yeah
WEB: And on to, on to
CB: Went on to the mainline
WEB: Mainline and onto Quainton
CB: Yes
WEB: Joined up with that one
CB: Yes
WEB: That’s as far as I know
CB: Which was the London to Wragby line
WEB: Yeah
CB: Yeah. Ok. And at what age did you leave school, Eddie?
WEB: I left school at the age of fourteen
CB: Ok.
WEB: And I, my first job was William Fenimore’s farm, which is this one down here, down, where Mr. Adams lives now, that’s where I first had my working experience and we used to get up and do, had to get down to the farm around about six o’clock in the morning to do the milking and finish it around [unclear] and come home for breakfast then and then continue the rest of the day onto the farm.
CB: And what did you do on the farm the rest of the day?
WEB: Just general farm work, cleaning out the stables and cow [unclear] and things like that and do the milking and all that sort of thing
CB: So, was this an animal farm effectively or was it arable as well?
WEB: It was until the war years, when the war started it became any arable, the ploughing and things like that, that was the first time that I ploughed and done things like that
CB: So, what animals were there, apart from the cows?
WEB: The cow. Oh, all animals like, they didn’t have horse, they had one horse, I think, one horse, and that used to take the milk from the farm up to the [unclear] on it and the rest of the day it was in the stable and [unclear] things just, you done the normal things with haymaking and all that sort of thing and the hay was all stacked in ricks and these were cut and delivered to the [unclear] as they needed it. I think that covers that sort
CB: So, in the wintertime, there was enough hay, was there, to feed the cattle?
WEB: Yes, yes, that was enough, all stacked in what they called ricks, ricks we used to call them
CB: Could you describe a rick? What’s that like?
WEB: Well, it’s built from the ground upwards and it’s round about, what, [unclear] about the size, half the size of this building long and about the same width and you take it up, build it up and then you come, when you get to round about ten, fifteen feet from the ground, something like that, you [unclear] it in which to make the roof and then you thatch it to keep the rain out
CB: So, the thatching is done with
WEB: Straw
CB: Straw. Ok. Where did the straw come from?
WEB: Straw was with the, in the fields like, where you thrashed out the corn
CB: Yes
WEB: What you call it, you thrash the corn out and then the straw was what was left
CB: Yes. So, they grew corn effectively to create straw, did they, for thatching
Web: Well, it would, it got that and then of course corn was used cause poultry and that, they had in [unclear] farm in what they called them I forget now, it was a thing that you could move and the chickens were in there
CB: Yes
WEB: The chicken, with a run and it was moved gradually about the field the chickens to get fresh grain to be on. This was, and that was all done usually nothing to do with the men farmer, just usually done by the daughter, something like that which in down here was Carrie Fenimore, that was the daughter’s name and she looked after the chickens
CB: Did they have sheep as well?
WEB: They had sheep, a few sheep
CB: Any goats?
WEB: Not goats, never had goats
CB: Right. And what numbers of cattle were involved in this? Roughly
WEB: The actual, I think it was around about up to twenty-five in, for milking purposes and that sort of thing
CB: Right
WEB: And then they did, did they have beef cattle as well?
WEB: Pardon?
CB: Did they have beef cattle?
WEB: Yes
CB: Raised for meat?
WEB: Yes, well, yes, they, that in a was a sort of a separate place because they used to have some fields that were down here but over the railway, over the top of the railway were a few more fields and those cows used to run wild there and were just, you went up with a horse and a cow straw and hay and that and you used to feed them during the winter
CB: Right
WEB: With that and they used to fatten up there and then, when they were ready they send them off to market
CB: Did the farm have a tractor?
WEB: Well, he, well
CB: At that time when you joined?
WEB: Had a tractor of a, yes, they did have a tractor, yeah, but it was a big, powerful one and it was a steam driven one they had, like, it was more like a steam engine then with which they towed anything they wanted to tow
CB: So, could that go on the road?
WEB: That did go on the road, that steam engine
CB: So, would you call that a traction engine?
WEB: Traction engine? Yes
CB: Right
WEB: And that was, that was used to take [unclear] job to describe the farms because they had another load of field round on the [unclear] road
CB: Right
WEB: And things like that and all these [unclear] just wend round and some of the sons and daughters used to look after that
CB: Right. So, how many people were running the farm?
WEB: Well, the actual who, the head of the farm was Will, William Fenimore and then there was Algernon Fenimore, he used to run and what was the other one? Algernon and I forget the other man’s name but he was married to a schoolteacher, now I can’t think of his name now but
CB: So you were supporting the family effectively. Were there other farm workers in addition to you?
WEB: Oh, there was, yes, there was
CB: How many?
WEB: Other people, was Leslie Jones and he was a real farm worker, well, he used to do that plus he used to look after me
CB: He looked after the animals
WEB: He looked after the hedging, and hedge cut
CB: Oh yes
WEB: Anything like that, he’d step in and do that sort of thing
CB: Was there a lot of hedging, hedge cutting in those days?
WEB: Only when it was necessary and he’d done, it wasn’t done on a regular basis in this day that was done very occasionally
CB: So, you were born in 1924 and you joined at fourteen, so that’s 1938, what do you remember of the next year, when the war started, in September 1939?
WEB: What do I remember? Not very much mainly actually [unclear] it was, the thing was there and that had to be dealt with I presume but it did make differences to us because we, for instance we had to join the home guard that was, if you couldn’t join, if, what I mean to say is if you was in a reserved occupation, let’s put it that way, you were not called up to do military service
CB: Right
WEB: As it goes but you were conscripted into the home guard and you’d done military training [unclear] and one odd day in the week and at no time, no time when you was later on you were let, we had to patrol the A41 of [unclear] and [unclear] you have done that for, would say, from midnight till four, and then from four till you went, four, that was, four would be the last watch, and you then, from then on you went to work so what you done, what you’re trying to do is to get you the end and the beginning of the day, merge into one so you could do the job, then go home and have your breakfast and then carry on working for the rest of the day. Does that make any sense to you?
CB: It does, yes. So, you were on four till eight, were you, and then had your breakfast
WEB: Yeah
CB: Ok. And what was the watch before that, before the one at twelve, was it eight till twelve? Were they four-hour watches?
WEB: These four-hour watches, they, you were drawn from, they started by midnight, more or less,
CB: Yeah, right
WEB: We used to think but that probably, started a little bit earlier than that but you’d done so long and then you got relieved and you left
CB: Yeah. So, at what stage did the farm operation change because of the war and why was it changed? How was it changed?
WEB: Well
CB: Because they started doing arable crops, didn’t they?
WEB: Well, this is all before the war, before the war [unclear], it was more or less just have a few cows, let them run around in the fields and do things like that, there weren’t much given to ploughing or anything that I can remember before the war
CB: No
WEB: Not, on a
CB: On a
WEB: On this basis
CB: Yeah
WEB: It weren’t really come necessary to do, what is it, to substitute the corn and that we were getting from the [unclear] and that sort of thing were coming in before the war for breadmaking and all that, it wasn’t until after when the war started and we had to make deal with bread and make bread out of the wheat and we started making bread of our own
CB: Did you?
WEB: We’d have our own wheat is what I mean [unclear] it was all done by imported corn wheat stuff
CB: Yeah
WEB: Does that make sense?
CB: Yeah, absolutely. So, then, Westcott became an RAF airfield, so when did that happen, when did they start building that and what was the reaction?
WEB: Dates, I can’t remember those dates and what was it, who was when? [unclear] to say
CB: Well, we can look up the actual date but what do you remember about it happening because your house
WEB: Yes, yes, as a matter of fact while, before that happened, I was happily working on the farm down here and then I got talking to some lads who was on the, doing the ministry job as I call it and I know he said, well, if they are getting that much money, I think it’s time I went in and had some [unclear], so I left the farm and went into the [unclear] and started doing this job and at that time I was, I was taken a surveyor [unclear] on a dumper to [unclear] we went up and came up to the bridge and what was the boss from the farm spotted me and that’s where my problems started then because he immediately went back and phoned the employment agency [unclear] I was immediately told to go and see them to get myself back on the farm, I was more important to them on the farm than the [unclear] so I was virtually took back to the farm and made to work on that farm until the wartime was over. I couldn’t please myself where I went [unclear] I had to be there. Do you understand this?
CB: Absolutely. So, there you were, in a house, a row of three, is it, next to the airfield, so did that map out as they were building it?
WEB: Well, it was, no, it didn’t affect us to in a lot of ways, you know, I mean, the only thing that we sort of did fall into was it all these, making these rain rings and putting them on where the aircraft standings were which what they called the one [unclear] behind the hazes, where I lived, was given a number of sea flight, that was its number and that’s where a lot of the fellows worked and that’s where a lot of the fellows used to nip out and go absent to drink without anybody else knowing [laughs] [unclear]. Mother used to be [unclear] nipping and give them plates of food and things like that they didn’t want give mother on a plate said, yes, you can use that more than we can, which take me now to, down on this road as we go down to Mote farm
CB: Right
WEB: Just as you go down [unclear], there they got as machine gun post, a machine gun nest then for Canadians, the Canadians were stationed in the old drive, driveway down at Lodge Garage they went that, they were stationed there, the Canadians were and they had a machine gun nest, machine gun [unclear] the bloke and what was it, and he came and he made friends with us, with myself and my brother, used to go down to [unclear] and for a pint or two of milk the farmer didn’t know about, he, they used to give us a bit of corned beef [laughs], which I, which people don’t know about, they shouldn’t have known about it then so we used to get a bit of corned beef for giving a pint of Mr. Fenimore’s milk and all went on during the war that sort of thing
CB: Nobody ever knew
WEB: No, well, I supposed they guessed I mean, Mr. Fenimore, what was it, he got these as I said, as I said the daughter of the farm, Carrie Fenimore, she used to be in charge of the chicken in these, I forget what they used to call them things, you could [unclear] them with the [unclear] and [unclear] with the [unclear], I forget the
CB: And they were called arcs, were they?
WEB: Well, [unclear] that anyway, and they shipped them about the farms and she looked after that and all the, what was it, and after, when you’d done all the those, all the milk was in churns which stood about that height from the ground were filled up and we, they had to be taken from the farm and up to the road here and stood on the road where Nestle’s milk lorries would pick them up and Carrie used to [unclear] the door, she drove the van up and I’d have to go up with her to lump the cans of milk away to where they go and that was where we got the milk to Aylesbury.
CB: These churns were about four feet high but how much milk did they carry each?
WEB: [unclear] I can’t [unclear] at the moment
CB: Probably about forty pints
WEB: I mean they [laughs] I stood about that, about that high so what was in there I wouldn’t know
CB: No
WEB: But there was but we used to send about five churns of milk per day to Aylesbury, to the Aylesbury Nestle’s, Nestle’s milk Aylesbury, [unclear] that
CB: What was the lorry? Was it a steam lorry or was it a
WEB: It was a petrol
CB: Petrol
WEB: Petrol driven lorry, lorry with a flat back where the bloke used to keep the pints of milk and get it go in to set on top of the
CB: The technique was to kick it and bounce it
WEB: Well, it was, yes, it got two little handles at the top
CB: Yeah
WEB: But he [unclear], his foot [unclear] side of the lorry, just slide it on
CB: So you
WEB: The lorry was not very high
CB: No. You brought it but he loaded it, did he?
WEB: He’d done all the, if he, if there was no, we used to leave it, if, you take it up to the road and you pick up the old churn and they used to drop the spare churns as I went down but if they were there when you were, you took the spare churn and left the milk, the milk there for him to pick up, you didn’t have to be there to see him take it
CB: But it was on a deck by the gate, was it?
WEB: That was on a
CB: Platform
WEB: Well, some [unclear] had platforms but we just set them straight onto the road
CB: Was it concrete?
WEB: To the farm you had road on, you know
CB: Ok. And how did you sterilise the empty ones when they returned them?
WEB: Well, when they returned them, they were already done
CB: Ready to fill
WEB: Straight in, straight into the caveyard and filled them up again
CB: Yeah. Right
WEB: But to, it was [unclear] in the farm there was a place where you put your milk, I forget what they called it now so, you put your milk into the top and it went through to cool it off, they cooled the milk off before it went into the can, into the churns
CB: Right
WEB: The churns that’s what
CB: Yeah
WEB: Thinking about
CB: Good
WEB: But that, that was heavy work that you had to do
CB: You were the only person who did that, were you?
WEB: You had to do it cause Carrie, the daughter couldn’t let them and so she just drove the little lost van it was at that time but they got, just [unclear] Carrie used to drive it
CB: I think we’ll take a break for a mo, thank you.
WEB: Lived on, lived where I am.
CB: Right, so, let’s just look at the farm. The Fenimores didn’t own this farm, did they?
WEB: No
CB: Who do you think owned it?
WEB: No, they rent it
CB: Right, from whom?
WEB: From the [unclear] estates
CB: Right
WEB: As far as I could think,
CB: Right. And the house you were in, who owned that?
WEB: That was, oh, some,
CB: It wasn’t owned by the farmer?
WEB: No
CB: It was owned by the Crown
WEB: Crown properties
CB: Yeah
WEB: Crown properties owned that
CB: Because it was the edge of the road
WEB: Like there sort of thing
CB: Right
WEB: That was [unclear]
CB: That, yeah. And you were one of a big family, so how big was the family?
WEB: There was eleven in our family
CB: Right. Mixture of boys and girls?
WEB: Yeah, I think it was six and five, I
CB: Yeah, ok
WEB: That was [unclear], that was five boys and six girls, yeah
CB: Yeah
WEB: And at the moment, there’s just three boys
CB: Yeah
WEB: Left
CB: Left
WEB: That’s the sad outcome
CB: So, going back to when the airfield was starting to be built, in about 1940, ’41, that was right next to your house, what could you see going on from the house? Because
WEB: Well
CB: It was land which it was a mixture of fields, wasn’t it? What did they do about that?
WEB: The field and different thing
CB: Woods?
WEB: [unclear] say that the first thing that you saw, thing was the great big caterpillar tractors around pulling down, pulling up hedges and things like that to make way for all this airfield now and as I say, I left and went over to, thought I get a few paid more than I was getting on the farm and that was Derby, this is the name of the firm if you want
CB: Yeah
WEB: It was the one I worked for was Derby Everdale and Greenwood who were subcontracting to, I can’t think now, the overall government was, what was it
CB: A big construction company
WEB: Big
CB: Like McAlpine
WEB: Well, was something like that, there, can’t think of it now but that was more or less done there and as I say, I thought I’d have some of the while I went, while they sent me back they said, Mr. Barnett, not Mr. Barnett, they called me, what was it? Get back to work, you, work, they said, you are more important where you are than where, [unclear] told me, he said, you’ll stay there until the end of the war, that’s your job, and that was all they told me, that, and during that time, the whole home guard and all that you were expected to join that but at night-time you’d have to do a stand on, from, on the road
CB: Yeah
WEB: On the A41
CB: Yeah
WEB: To ensure that there was no funny business by, you know, some people wanted to damage the, damage the things at Agnem Street station, that was all that keep you on that, because in the Agnum Street station they got that based to run petrol into that, to Wadston to store and you had to make sure that it was doing and then, as I say, you done that and the time it was, you finished that shift it was time to go and milk the cows
CB: What sort of people were they thinking were going to do these things?
WEB: Well, it was German parachuters more than anything, you know, that was what they, that was what they used to tell us, they dropped these people with parachutes and things and we believed them and you had to believe, innit? They say they would drop, I presume they could’ve done, but that we believed it and we used to do this patrolling. Two of us used to do the patrol and then get relieved, the ideal one was to start at four o’clock in the morning and do that and do that and [unclear] until six and then you went and done your farming
CB: Right
WEB: Done your milking, went and done your milking and then you went home and had your breakfast and all that sort of thing
CB: What weapons did you carry?
WEB: We had, I don’t know where, the ones we had were the imported 300
CB: Springfields
WEB: Must have been the Springfields, it was American made
CB: American, yeah
WEB: [unclear] that was the ones we had, we had Springfield and five rounds of ammunition
CB: Right
WEB: And we kept that, there was two of those and [unclear] cause me brother Sam [unclear] he had one as well
CB: Did you take it home or?
WEB: That was, that was kept at home.
CB: Yea
WEB: But you had to take it to your [unclear] on the Sunday and that one we were doing the drills and [unclear] and several on a Sunday and all that sort of thing
CB: Where did you practice your shooting skills?
WEB: Unfortunately, we didn’t get to any shooting practices, that was too, our ammunition was too, what they called? Too
CB: Too [unclear]
WEB: Too spare, too expensive, and too valuable then to expend on things like that, what we used to do was to have a target sort of thing with an air rifle
CB: Ah
WEB: [unclear] and you never practiced with the actual big machine, as I call it,
CB: Yeah
WEB: You had a little air rifle
CB: Yeah. And how good was your shooting?
WEB: Pardon?
CB: How good was your shooting?
WEB: My shooting weren’t too bad, actually. It was about fair, fair
CB: So when you briefly worked on the airfield construction, how much did they pay you?
WEB: Oh, I think it was round about that time, it was round about seven or eight pounds, something like that which normally
CB: A week?
WEB: For that time
CB: A week
WEB: A week
CB: Yeah
WEB: But the farming, that was only up to about seven or eight pounds
CB: Right
WEB: So that was what [unclear], Mr. Fenimore he spotted me on this, what was it and I was back down the next day
CB: Yeah. So, how many people were building the airfield, were there lots of people?
WEB: Oh, I don’t know, quite a lot, what was it? It was Irish, a lot of Irish people
CB: Right
WEB: At the time
CB: Where did they house those?
WEB: In a factory down sort of gypsie bombers as we called it, you know a gypsies barn is buried where the club is
CB: Yes, in the wood there
WEB: In that strip of land there to the bottom of the hill, that’s where they used to house those people, in Nissen huts sort of things
CB: Which they put specially, had they?
WEB: They put them up specially for them
CB: How long did it take to build the airfield?
WEB: Oh, I don’t know, [unclear] I don’t know, it didn’t take them long, to, I mean, it’s, I think it’s, I wouldn’t say
CB: So, you talked about these caterpillars that were ripping up the hedges, how many trees did they have to take out?
WEB: Oh, that is beyond me, I mean, as a matter of fact, I don’t know, before the war actually they were [unclear] from way [unclear] on the side of the road
CB: The A41
WEB: From there the back portal as we called it to the Westcott turn was a load of those, what we called? Birch, is it?
CB: Silver birch
WEB: Silver birch, they were lines of eight of those trees on the road, then they got four of them and then there was odd one or two down Westcott lane, these silver birch trees and that sort of thing
CB: So what happened to those?
WEB: All fell and burnt, but the most of it was burnt and the logs and that, cause people had them stacked and had them for firewood and that sort of thing
CB: They pulled the roots out?
WEB: The roots and all that were pulled all out and
CB: Where did the put those?
WEB: They put them in heaps and got rid of those with the fire
CB: And what about the runways, because they had a different type of equipment for that, did they?
WEB: What the
CB: Making the runways
WEB: That I couldn’t say, I mean, I just
CB: You could watch them
WEB: It was concrete and what was it? All the way, done, they’d done it in bays, bays
CB: In sections
WEB: In sections, that was all, don’t know what the, the machine was actually making the concrete and they’d lay there and then, when that was drawn, they moved it on and made the next one and doing, that was done in bays I think
CB: Right, yeah
WEB: Call it but it was big concrete
CB: And what about the material. How did that get there?
WEB: Came in from road, from the road, from [unclear], the Oxford area, somewhere down, I just big, some big [unclear]
CB: Were they petrol
WEB: Pits and where they loaded them up on the lorries and
CB: Yeah
WEB: They brought the stuff and loaded it and put it on, what was it, where that was to be used and that was levelled out by tractor, the things and pushed all over and levelled and rolled out and then they made concrete on the top of it
CB: Right. Now, there’s a railway that goes down beside the airfield so, how much came by railway?
WEB: Funnily enough I don’t think not a lot of it came by the rail but the only thing that sort of come by rail was petrol and storage that they sent to Wadston and stored up in the plantations of Wadston [unclear]
CB: Oh, was it? Right
WEB: Mostly [unclear] that I can tell
CB: That was fuel for the aircraft
WEB: That was fuel for, not for the aircraft, that was fuel for the general army actually but a load of these things were in tin, what they called it? Tin cans, they weren’t very thick but those weigh round about four gallons
CB: Yeah
WEB: And they were all stacked in the Wadston, Wadston plantations
CB: Right
WEB: Right where the doctor’s surgery is [unclear], all around that area
CB: On the far side of the village, yeah
WEB: Was where [unclear]
CB: So, how different was the supply, when the airfield was finished, how did they supply the fuel for that?
WEB: That used to come in by big tankers from somewhere, I don’t know where
CB: But not by train
WEB: Ehm
CB: Not by train
WEB: Not say this local station anyway
CB: Right
WEB: It came, it might, even then I might be wrong, but I think it was from somewhere else they used to come, the big tankers
CB: Yeah. Now your house and the others next to it are on the north side of the airfield, they actually with the hard standings for servicing, they also had a big petrol store underground
WEB: In where?
CB: Just across the fence from here
WEB: Ah, yes, yes
CB: So how did they build that?
WEB: That was all a big, they dug it all out, a big pit and they put a steel tank, yeah, that was, a big tank was lowered into the ground with pumps and all that and they [unclear] for petrol, well, fuel for aircraft anyway and then they [unclear] the back [unclear] where [unclear] is, are three, are standings for aircraft
CB: Yes
WEB: Cause I was saying, [unclear] or something like that, three Wellington bombers used to stay
CB: [unclear]
WEB: Were parked out there and that sort of got to know the load of the people
CB: Yeah
WEB: [unclear] Tipps Wooller, he used to run to dinner now and again he [unclear], we don’t want it, you can eat it [laughs], yeah Tipps Wooller, [unclear] to know I recall, you know, some of the names but no [unclear] to me, so I say, Tipps, he was an aircraft ambuler, he brought out to the aircraft and that at the back and then he, there was several couples I used to know in when we used to go and have a pint with them when we got in the pub to get a pint but I forget the names of those people that used to come, I know they come up into London somewhere
CB: Why was it difficult to get into the pub?
WEB: Pardon?
CB: Why was it difficult to get into the pub?
WEB: Into the what?
CB: Into the pub. You said it was difficult to get into it
WEB: The pub?
CB: Yeah
WEB: Oh well, I mean, [unclear], it was like everything else, it was shortage of beer [laughs], that was too odd difficult thing to get in there, I mean, they’d be all waiting outside there for Frank Washington to open the door, [unclear] that was, the biggest problem was to rush in and a beer, they weren’t officially rationed but they weren’t [unclear] for them to give it then, yeah
CB: Now, this big tank with petrol in, when they moved the contents to be able to fill the aircraft, to what extent was there a strong smell of fuel in the air?
WEB: I don’t know this much of it. I couldn’t notice much of the smell from it really. I mean [unclear] I presumed, which way the wind blowed
CB: Right
Web: But we, some of that we didn’t take much notice of but [unclear] the big, the tank, that when you get more of a smell than anything was when the tanker came round to fuel the aircraft
CB: Right
WEB: Which was right close to the [unclear] the aircraft and that was when you used to get more of a smell from the tankers but other than that, nothing [unclear]
CB: So, how did they get from the main road to this fuel tank? Was there a special gate near your house?
WEB: What was?
CB: The tankers
WEB: The tankers [unclear]
CB: They came in from a gate near your house, did they?
WEB: Not the actual tankers that fuelled, they used to come in and I had, they had an underground tank
CB: Yeah
WEB: Inside the aerodrome which was quite a long way from the [unclear] and they used to, at the end of where our garden and that, there was a road
CB: Right
WEB: Off there where all the tankers went in and to supply the tanks and that sort of thing
CB: Yes
WEB: Other than that, that was the only sort of thing that used to go over in there but it was a pretty busy thing I would think
CB: We’ll take a break there. So, just talking about
WEB: End of the gardens
CB: Yeah, there was a [unclear]
WEB: There was a [unclear] called Wadston terrace
CB: Yeah
WEB: There used to be a little building with a sentry, and he used to let in the lorries that’s one thing I think [unclear] lorries
CB: The fuel delivery lorries
WEB: They let the fuel delivery lorries in
CB: Yeah. So how was the airfield secured? They didn’t have a fence, did it?
WEB: Had, most of it round was concertina barbwire
CB: Right
WEB: One roll, two rolls on the floor, one on the top
CB: Right
WEB: That’s what they call it
CB: How high was that? When they were piled on top?
WEB: Well, they were, each roll was about that high
CB: Right, five, six feet
WEB: There was one, that was up from the floor
CB: Yeah, five feet
WEB: And then one, another one
CB: Yeah
WEB: Balanced on the two
CB: Yeah
WEB: That was the only thing that I can remember of [unclear] place
CB: Yeah
WEB: Being [unclear] as it stood and [unclear] we used to be a very good [unclear] for the people who come and see and have a pint without the bosses knowing [laughs]
CB: So where would they
WEB: They would walk through the garden at the end of the pub and then back
CB: Which pub are we talking about? Which pub are we talking about, in the village or elsewhere?
WEB: [unclear] go anywhere more or less where the pub, they got the beer
CB: Ah
WEB: This was the problem for me, see, with all these extra people, is, where do you go and get your pint of beer, when it don’t last long? You know, it was, they ain’t got beer all the time, these pubs, they just start to [unclear] if you [unclear] go and get a pint every day mostly, well I suppose, it was a type of rationing [unclear] but, yeah
CB: Could you buy beer to drink at home or was it not available?
WEB: Never, I never saw any of that sort of, bought anywhere, not a way, that was too, they wouldn’t sell it, I don’t think, in the pubs, avoidable for them to sell it, I don’t think, you probably would do but I can’t say that I know that you can buy beer to take home
CB: Right
WEB: But, I mean, it’s a long time ago, isn’t it?
CB: Yes
WEB: But there
CB: Now what about, when the aircraft, when the airfield became operational, that was quite a change to the quiet of the countryside so how did people take to that?
WEB: Oh, just a war time job that you had to take, it wasn’t that, the noisiest places for us, I presume, was when the aircraft was on the landing, on the site, next [unclear] and they were testing the engines
CB: Yes
WEB: They were revving up, that was the noisy part of it and to do that, we used to laugh, we got Lottie Cannon used to live one end of [unclear] and guess it’s going back and Stanley [unclear] was in the middle, I think it was the [unclear] in the middle way round there for end at the time and mum said, that lot, Lottie will be able to [unclear] she said today, she said, they grabbed the aircraft blowing straight across our garden [laughs], they used to make, that was the type of thing they’d done, you see, to test the aircraft, that was right on there, in the aircraft there and then the [unclear] is here, and they, I guess, they just revved up the engine to test them, and all that sort of thing and you had to put with it and that was it
CB: They didn’t swing the aircraft into a better position to save you
WEB: Pardon?
CB: They didn’t swing the aircraft
WEB: No
CB: Save the
WEB: No, they, that, where the aircraft come in to land, that’s where it [unclear] straight to the aerodrome and tail, facing your [unclear]
CB: Yeah
WEB: You got all the background then
CB: So you deserved the extra food as compensation
WEB: We deserved a lot but we didn’t get [laughs], oh dear
CB: So we are talking about a big family here, how many of the family had left to get elsewhere by this time, beginning of the war?
WEB: By the war all the girls had gone
CB: Right
WEB: I think most
CB: Cause they were older
WEB: No, it was because the way these people worked them days, when the girls left school they were billeted out to the place where they were gonna work
CB: Right
WEB: [unclear] they seemed to manage to all these families
CB: Yeah
WEB: I mean, I think certainly my oldest sister Winnie, she went over the back of the farmer back Quainton Hills [unclear] Quainton Hills and she was lodged in that place, that’s where she met her husband and
CB: What was her job then?
WEB: Well, she was [unclear], she kept and cleaned the farm and kept it all going
CB: Right
WEB: [unclear]
CB: What did the other girls do?
WEB: Oh,
CB: A variety
WEB: I don’t know, Alice, she was sent out to [unclear], Aston Clinton, that area, round there to do people’s ailsing and the other girls, they all, well, don’t think of the younger ones, were at home, you know
CB: So, in those days, the big houses had girls in service
WEB: Yes, they did that, that was what they had to do mostly what they’d done [unclear], business was the service for
CB: You were on the farm, were there any of the girls in the land army?
WEB: Not our girls, no
CB: And your brothers, what did they do?
WEB: The brothers were all more or less, Ernie, now, he was the star of the family actually, cause he was a cross country runner and he was transferred from Grendon, that was present man, Lord somebody who’s done Grendon Hall
CB: Grendon Hall, yeah
WEB: And he worked for them in the gardens
CB: Right
WEB: And he happened to go, happened to go to Grendon and the police were holding a sport’s day at Grendon, at Bicester and he [unclear] and went to and do his races and he eventually come home with a, what do you call it? Hang on the wall [unclear], tells the weather, a weather glass, a grandmother clock, and something else he, three things he brought home on that high school from
CB: That he’d won
WEB: He won
CB: Yeah
WEB: But the police bought it what was it, when from then on, that made him and they got in contact with Wickham Phoenix Harriers, which was at Wickham, what was it? And they got him a job in the chair factories and that’s where he spent the rest of his days in factories apart from when he was called up into the Air Force and that was it, he won the only international medal he got was when he, England and Belgium were against other sports and he was one of the runners and he got a gold medal in that, what was it, and that was his only medal he ever sort of won in international, what was it, and then on he went in the Air Force and the next thing I know he was in the Far East, Middle East, my mistake, doing his Air Force
CB: Right. When did he join the RAF? When did he join the RAF?
WEB: When did he? Oh, I don’t know, he was more or less conscripted I think into it, that was where
CB: At the beginning of the war
WEB: At the beginning of the war and that was where he done that training and all that sort
CB: How much older than you was he?
WEB: Oh Ernie, he was quite, he was the oldest and I was round about the middle, middle of the family
CB: Right
WEB: I don’t, those, I don’t know much really cause the difference in years and that, most of the girls then were sent out to work [unclear]
CB: Was that because of the war or because that’s how the things happened?
WEB: Well, that’s how things happened normally
CB: Right
WEB: Cause the war didn’t have a lot of effect on the difference what, the only difference they did sort of do then were to get jobs into factories and things so that were important to do, war efforts where before that they’d do everything else
CB: Right. And did one of your brothers do work in the mines? What was he?
WEB: Oh, well, Victor
CB: Yeah
WEB: Victor, he’s still living in Aylesbury at the moment, he was conscripted down the mines, yes
CB: A Bevin boy
WEB: A Bevin boy, yeah
CB: Yes
WEB: Yes, he was, that was it, he was a Bevin boy. I don’t know many people that done it from around here that went in there
CB: Yeah. And where was that? Up in the north?
WEB: He went up to
CB: Newcastle?
WEB: That was Newcastle and somewhere around that area
CB: Ok, we’ll take a break there. We’re stopping there. So, what we are going to do now is talk about the crashes and other recollections of the airfield. Actually, Westcott 11 Operational Training Unit lost 53 Wellingtons in crashes
WEB: [unclear]
CB: Yeah. And how many, what’s the first one you remember? You talked about one to do with a signal box.
WEB: Yes, well, that one has taken three runways out there and I think it was, I don’t know which one, which one to name, they named them, but it came from that way and he didn’t make the end of the runway properly and he was never got enough height and he hit the signal box and went into the, this side of the railway and that was where one of the fellows, I think it was one of the fellows down on the Restborough [unclear] but that was that one but I don’t think there was any
CB: Right, so then another one was one that
WEB: Another one was, I mean, [laughs] I don’t know whether anybody ever looked at, if they kept the [unclear] on the left hand side but you come down from [unclear], from [unclear] down to Woodham, I think I’m not sure but there’s three, three fences on that left hand side, where the aircraft had actually gone over the road, come over the, come to land on that airfield, failed, went over the field, down and over the road and landed with its, either its tail or its nose, over the Bicester road
CB: This explains
WEB: And I think if I’m not sure, there’s three fences have been put up in the [unclear], I don’t know [unclear]
CB: So, this is a strip between your house and where we are talking today of about half a mile and we are talking about the end of the runway that is runway 2 8, in other words goes to the North-West so there was shot out
WEB: They are the ones that come over the road then
CB: Yeah
WEB:
CB: To the A41
WEB: Yeah. Well, that’s as far as I can tell, I don’t know where they got fences in there or not, but they used to have gaps in the hedge then and they been filled in [unclear] sense or not, I don’t know,
CB: Now, there was one crash that took place on the 15th of March 1944 which was when there was a Wellington in the circuit and it was hit, this is in the night, by a Stirling that came from another direction, what do you remember about that?
WEB: That’s the first time I ever called a Stirling, we, everybody [laughs], I’ve always known it as a Lancaster,
CB: Right, that’s the other, that’s the different crash, this the one that where they were hit
WEB: This is
CB:
WEB: This is one at Westcott turn
CB: Yes
WEB: This, this
CB: Ok, that’s the other one, yes
WEB: This plane had been doing circuits and bumps as we called it
CB: Right
WEB: Been flying [unclear]
CB: Yeah
WEB: On its final, he didn’t make it, he went straight over the road
CB: Yes
WEB: But that crashed his undercarriage
CB: Yes
WEB: And he [unclear] that side of the road
CB: The other side, this is a Wellington
WEB: At night time, they’d done this big raid on Germany and these aircraft were flying back and these actually got diverted from some other airfield, this Lancaster bomber, we’ll call it a Lancaster
CB: It is a Lancaster, yes
WEB: A Lancaster bomber come flying in from the other way and he didn’t make it, he went over the road and landed on top of this Wellington that was already there
CB: Right
WEB: And that was where all the hullabaloo got started then, blokes running down the road, in their flying boots, mom looked out of the window and she said, [unclear] Charlie said, blokes running [unclear] we better get out, and we [unclear] then Kitt Rebell come along and he shouted and told us, get out and clear airfield, he said, in the roots cause all in [unclear] beyond our place were tree roots, [unclear] up when aircraft were being made, when the airfield was being made but there was a load of roots out there, so get out in [unclear] and we went out there. My father, he was out there and he was when it went off, he was pulling his trousers on outside in the field and he was pulling his trousers on and suddenly he said, I heard this thump, I know there was a lump of aircraft metal, not two yards from him but my father was near my father ever got to an aircraft, he said, that’s the nearest I ever wanna be and that was, he missed, that was when that aircraft blew up at Westcott turn
CB: So you were in the tree tumps
WEB: We were in the tree stumps
CB: And where was he, close to that?
WEB: Who, my father?
CB: Yeah
WEB: He was in the tree stumps with us
CB: Yeah
WEB: In those but he was [unclear] a little bit in the open when that aircraft blew
CB: Yeah
WEB: That of course took the roof off [unclear] the slades and things and we were covered with sheets [unclear] for ages
CB: Who came and fixed it?
WEB: I don’t know, it took, I think it was, I’m not sure where it was, [unclear] and fixed the
CB: [unclear]
WEB: Well, but the finish
CB: So this was the first of June 1944. How long did it take to get the house fixed?
WEB: I can’t say, took a long time I mean they more or less had cut [unclear] to make it waterproof then
CB: Yeah
WEB: To stop the water but to actual do the repairs, that took ages
CB: So, it blew the roofs off, what happened to the windows?
WEB: Windows were [unclear], never was blown out the windows so that they fixed those up as well. A lot of time I think some of them would bits of plaster or something instead of glass
CB: So this was actually only two hundred yards from your house that the explosion took place. What other houses were damaged?
WEB: A little bit more than
CB: Four hundred yards?
WEB: [unclear] from Westcott turn to [unclear]
CB: Yeah, four hundred yards
WEB: Something like that
CB: Yeah. What other houses were damaged?
WEB: Oh, I presume the [unclear] were damaged and all that sort of thing but
CB: There was a bungalow in the opposite direction that received an engine through the roof. And who was hurt in this?
WEB: I, I don’t know, obviously somebody I don’t know, I
CB: Ok. So, the person that hurt was the duty officer who’d been telling people to get out and he’s buried in the church yard but he was the only casualty from the blast.
WEB: Yeah
CB: The bomber landed with the full bomb load
WEB: That’s [unclear] full bomb load [unclear]
CB: Which he’d brought back
WEB: He landed on the Wellington that was lying there incumbent
CB: That’s what made it catch fire, wasn’t it? Cause it wasn’t on fire when it landed
WEB: Naturally in coming in, his engines were hot anyway
CB: Yes
WEB: And he had the bomb in
CB: That’s it
WEB: Petrol was very inflammable stuff and that, especially that aircraft fuel
CB: But unusually the aircraft came with a full bomb load, cause you would not normally land with a full bomb load
WEB: Yes, but he was diverted from another airfield
CB: Yes
WEB: I mean, you wouldn’t have got a Westcott plane coming in with a full bomb load because they didn’t have, they didn’t have a lot of bombing sites
CB: Yes
WEB: Only when they, they would make an exception
CB: Yeah
WEB: [unclear] but not many of the crashes that happened round Westcott were with people, with aircraft with fully explosive bombs on. That’s the only thing good about any crash that came round Westcott [unclear] that one
CB: Cause it was an operational training unit. Now, one of the crashes was registered as Waddesdon so where was that?
WEB: Well, as far as I know, that was the only one that went, that was in the side of the hill, was it?
CB: Right
WEB: I don’t remember
CB: But that wasn’t by the fuel dump
WEB: What?
CB: It wasn’t by the fuel dump
WEB: I don’t know much about, we didn’t know much about anything like that
CB: Right. Just stop it, just a mo.
WEB: I still, was still [unclear] went but doing tees and what I did when it went over
US: But you used to have a cafe
CB: Yeah, it is on, yeah. So, Gos ran a café, did he?
WEB: That was a café there
CB: Yeah, and he got the engine
WEB: What they called a path walk cafe
CB: Right
WEB: That was, they were a going concern
CB: Yeah
WEB: So, I think a load of RAF people used to go up there for a cup of tea or things like that
CB: Right. Yeah
WEB: But
CB: This is the bungalow that got the engine through the roof. Then there was another house I gather called Victoria House which was badly damaged
WEB: Victoria House, this
CB: That’s on the edge of the village, what happened there?
WEB: Well, I don’t know, must have been, I mean, that was as close as any other [unclear] could get really
CB: Yeah, the blast hit it
WEB: But I mean, obviously damaged
CB: Yeah
WEB: But we missed looking at our own what was it, we didn’t really know much about what happened down there and there or I suppose it was, yeah
CB: Now the
WEB: [unclear] you see
CB: The duty officer was flight lieutenant Bulmer of the cider family
WEB: Bulmer, sorry
CB: And he’s buried in the churchyard and they put in new windows in the church, did they? And they paid for it, restoring the church
WEB: Almost
CB: Restoring the church
WEB: Yeah, they come, yeah, Bulmer’s [unclear] people
CB: There is a plaque in the church to his memory
WEB: Yeah
CB: Yeah, right. Now, there is another crash which is recorded on the airfield with a monument and that was, took place on the 15th of March ‘44, when a Wellington was hit by a Short Stirling and that was near Quainton and you know somebody who was in the signal box at the time.
WEB: Well, that’s, that might be Sue’s uncle
CB: Right
WEB: Someone like that [unclear] but I don’t this Stirling, I didn’t know any Stirlings here but if they say it was a Stirling that was what it was, but I imagine that could have been a Lancaster
CB: But it was a Stirling and it landed at Wappenham, crashed at Wappenham
WEB: Yeah
CB: In the end but the Wellington landed nearby so the significance was this person in the signal box seeing it
WEB: Yeah
CB: The pilot’s wife was in a house up the road with her new child, he was an Australian
WEB: Yeah, I, well, I don’t know [unclear]
CB: That’s right. What other crashes do you remember there being
WEB: Well, I mean, as I just say, if you look what date where they overshot the runway away and landed in the fields, the only things that mark by fencing and all that sort of thing
CB: Yeah
WEB: That I can say about any others I mean, I should say, if you walked around the perimeter, you’d find a crash site anywhere around that aerodrome
CB: Yeah
WEB: Where the aircraft were taking off and landing, but you can’t, to pinpoint it’s a hell of a job
CB: On a more positive front then, how about the social life? How did you link in with that with the airmen and the air women for that matter?
WEB: Well, we used to drink together in The Swan at Westcott, that to we went out to drink, they weren’t allowed much beer about then, I mean, the pub, you’d be standing outside the pub waiting for it to open and it wouldn’t open something like that was, I mean the, when Frank [unclear] the bloke who used to keep the pub at Westcott, he used to say, said, when it’s gone, it’s gone, he said, so if you drink it now, he said, you won’t get it tomorrow, and that was his philosophy and you get rid on. I know we were young [unclear] but we had bicycles and things like that and when we hang up going up to Quainton and see any or not that was we used to take, you could always get a pint at Quainton
CB: There were three pubs in Waddesdon
WEB: Waddesdon
CB: So, how did you get on there?
WEB: Well that was, we used to get off a pint in the [unclear] now and again when we started doing the home guard, home guard training sessions at Waddesdon on Sunday morning, that was the only place you could get a pint if you wanted a pint then
CB: Would help your shooting, wouldn’t it? What about socials that they ran on the airfield, cause there were a good few WAAFs, there was a separate WAAF area
WEB: Well, didn’t take much part in the social side of the airfield, you know
CB: Right
WEB: But any time I used to [unclear] was when I got in the Swan and I did know a couple of WAAFs and their boyfriends and things like that, they used to come in the Swan and other than that I didn’t know, yeah, I get the names [laughs]
CB: Now, being in a reserved occupation meant that you were a young person amongst military people, most people were in the forces one way or the other, what sort of reaction did you get as you walked around and cycled around, not being in uniform?
WEB: No, [unclear] I think people more or less understood the situation you were in, you were in that, I never got any diverse comments about [unclear] or anything
CB: When you were in the Home Guard you’d be wearing the uniform, at other times you wouldn’t, wouldn’t you?
WEB: Well, in the Home Guard, you wore that when you went to and done the midnight walk, as we used to call it, go out at midnight and be home back by four o’clock, be in bed at four and then back up again at six and go milking [laughs], that’s how we used to, things, no, I, wasn’t anything spectacular
CB: Did they give you a badge to wear, to show that you were in a reserved occupation?
WEB: No. I never had one anyway
CB: Right
WEB: I didn’t know never [unclear] I mean there was my brother Lewis and myself, we were all working in the same, on the same farm, just one day here,
CB: Mate Farm
WEB: Mote Farm and we never did [unclear] seen any words or anything from anybody about it, you know
CB: So, what would you prefer to have done in the war?
WEB: Well, what I wanted to do and which I tried to do, several times, as a matter of fact I [unclear] from here to blooming Oxford to go to a recruiting centre and all I got in trouble was get on your bikes and go back to where you come from, you’re in a reserved occupation and you are better off where you are. And that was that, that was the only thing I [unclear]. And I went to Old Wickham, it was [unclear] come back on the, went to Wickham, come back on a train said it was a waste of time then, trying to go, you’re in a reserved occupation, you’ve got to do that reserved occupation to change jobs that blokes say if I want to move from where [unclear] the
CB: Mate Farm
WEB: Yeah, but I wanted to go to work at Waddesdon for somebody else, it was a hell of a job, you got to [unclear] to Aylesbury and see somebody in the labour exchange when I’ve been all through the, what was it? The [unclear] was, go back and behave yourself and don’t worry us again. You go back where you come from.
CB: Yeah
WEB: That was that, that was the attitude to take. You were in the, you were there and that’s where you’re gonna stay
CB: Right
WEB: [unclear] it was, you couldn’t, I mean, as I said, I tried to get away from [unclear] and only needed the farmer to spot me once and just ring [unclear] exchange and somebody was there to tell me to get back on the farm again
CB: So, which of the forces were you hoping to join?
WEB: Mh?
CB: Which of the forces were you hoping to join?
WEB: Well, I was always wanted to join the navy, that was my one and only thing, I wanted to join the navy and I went, and I tried my [unclear] to get into the navy but every time I went anywhere, was the same thing, you’re doing a better job than [unclear], but directly the war was over, this is what nickels me in a way, so as soon as the war was over, and things had settled down a bit, the first thing I got, was a notice to go and see somebody at High Wycombe and when I went to High Wycombe they said, you will be sent now to a training camp down in, what was it? To join the navy. And I said, why at this time? He said, because we want, he said the, well, what we call it? Operation, people that was, were forcibly sent into the forces, we want those people back home and we will get you training and put you in the navy and send those people back home and that’s exactly what happened. I went down too long for a round of instructions to get down to Plymouth, in that area, to a place down there, and I was conscripted into the navy then and I served seven years and five on a reserve and I was told, that was where I got to be after that and that’s what I had to do.
CB: But the conscripted
WEB: And I was seven years a complete, what shall I say? I thoroughly enjoyed my seven years I served in the navy and I got no complaints whatsoever by joining up.
CB: And what did you do while you were in the navy?
WEB: I ended up being a radar operator, you know, sort of, on any ship I could go and operate, what was it, and I’d been, the best thing really was to get into the plot room on board ship with the officer, the navigating officer and you were on the radar and told him where to put the dots and [unclear] on his [unclear], on his plot. You had two [unclear], you either served in the actual place where the PPI was, the Plot Position Indicator, which was like a little light line going round and round like that and if it hit a ship or anything like that, it would leave a spot and you reported up to the bloke in the, what was it, and from there he’d take it up and you’d keep telling him where that spot [unclear] he said you can plot the course and tell his where the ship was going. So, in a way, it was interesting in a way, but I thoroughly enjoyed it
CB: What was the balance between being on shore and being afloat?
WEB: What, in what way?
CB: How many years of the seven were you on shore and how many on afloat?
WEB: I was, oh, I don’t know, I don’t [unclear] about on any land station really. I went over to, we’d done the training down at Plymouth and that took about to eight weeks, something like that [unclear] course and that and from there, I’d done that and I was in the Mediterranean in next to no time and the first, I joined there and I started, and the coincidence here is that I joined this ship HMS Cheviot and I relieved a bloke on board of that ship by the name of Stanley Pankhurst, now, I lived at Westcott and Stanley Pankhurst lived at Bicester [laughs] and was, his, and when I went there, he said, good gracious, he said, where do you come from? And I said, Westcott. Wow! I could blow the, I could blow the bloody place up, he said, if, he said, you’re the finest bloke I’ve ever seen in this world, he said, come and relieve me. Stanley Pankhurst greeted me to [unclear], he said, here’s the keys, I said, what’s that for? He said, that’s for your locker, he said, he said, you can, I’ll take my kit out, you can put yours in there, he said, I’ll make sure it’s locked, he said, that was when I went since Stanley Pankhurst but his father apparently owned a paper shop or something in Bicester but no
CB: That’s eight miles away
WEB: Yeah, that’s right
CB: Right
WEB: I mean, wonderful, that is to think that you meet somebody who’s glad to see you [laughs]
CB: But the conscription was for less than two years so how did you come to do seven?
WEB: Ah, I, you see, that’s, that was, I volunteered for the seven, I volunteered to, wanted to join the navy and the only thing that stopped me joining the navy was my father and when you, if your father said you can’t do this, in them days, you’d done what your father said
CB: Yeah
WEB: Now, when I decided that I wanted to go, he said, well, he said, you can go now, he said, you’d done all what you need to do here and that was as far as it went and I joined up and I said, I’ll do seven, the seven years and then seven years, if, that seven years was done on a reason was that if we’d given seven years to do and then five years on a reserve that means to say that we still got a little hand on them for another twelve, for twelve years and that’s where they go and half way through that five year job they cancelled it
CB: Right
WEB: They wrote a letter who said you are no longer required and that was, from that [unclear] now I can go upstairs into my bedroom [unclear] and I can go into my, into a, what was it there? and I can pick up a little blue folder, and that’s all my papers
CB: Really?
WEB: Navy
CB: Fantastic. What did you do when you came out of the navy?
WEB: Well, I went into the brickyards
CB: Which is where?
WEB: [laughs] at [unclear], that’s where I started
CB: Just half a mile away
WEB: Yeah. I went and started into the, what was it? And it wasn’t long before Woodham disappeared and I went from there I went to [unclear]
CB: Right. London Brick
WEB: London Brick company. And that’s where I finished my work in days on the brick, I say, they made me redundant when I was, what was, I think I was fifty something,
US: Fifty-eight
WEB: Fifty-eight or something [unclear] and I had round about four, three years to do and they, I didn’t do a day, I’d done one day’s work since I was retired
CB: Right
WEB: And my [unclear] got me to go and do one day’s work for the people that he worked, worked for and [unclear] and sadly he’s gone anyway
CB: What, how far did you move up the organisation? You started doing what, little brickworks?
WEB: In the brickworks? Well, I had work all the time, [unclear] you didn’t get any advancement in any way, at all much, you’d go down into the pit or any, or down or drawing site, going with a barrel going into the [unclear] and run the brick site and load lorries off with your barrels and all that sort of thing, [unclear] anything you could do down there, paid work, I mean, that was the only thing, if you’d done, if you worked hard, you got paid more. But, I did not [unclear], there was no advantage in being in brickyard, brickworks
CB: Did you, to what extent did you find opportunities to take a more responsible job? There’s a chargehand or supervisor or something?
WEB: Chargehand and all that sort of thing, I mean, that came earlier there when somebody else had gone and
CB: Yeah
WEB: And they wanted somebody to fill the place and that was only done or any and when you got to filling out the forms and that sort of thing, but that weren’t, that was all to just fill the forms out, get it cause he took the lorry driver and he took the bricks and away
CB: Right
WEB: [unclear] keep you landing and doing the thing but all our work
CB: What would you say finally was the most memorable thing about your working life from when you left school?
WEB: Memorable? Can’t say there is anything memorable [unclear]. I know being out to more or less do what you like, do what you please and as long as it didn’t do any damage to anybody else. Yeah
CB: Well, Eddie, thank you very much for a very interesting and enlightening conversation
WEB: Well, just, piece of work then, as I say
CB: Now
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with William Edwin Barnett
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarnettWE170328, PBarnettWE1701
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:49:02 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Description
An account of the resource
William Edwin Barnett talks about his experience of living on the edge of RAF Westcott, near Aylesbury. Remembers starting to work on a farm at the age of fourteen and describes his everyday life and duties. Tells of being conscripted into the Home Guard, where he did night patrolling and practiced target shooting with an air rifle. Tells of how he wanted to join the Navy but was rejected because he was in a reserved occupation. Talks about various plane crashes, including a Lancaster, of which he gives a detailed and vivid account. After the war, remembers being conscripted into the Navy, where he served for seven years.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-03-15
11 OTU
civil defence
crash
final resting place
Home Guard
Lancaster
memorial
Operational Training Unit
RAF Westcott
sport
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/78/744/ASimonsohnW170812.2.mp3
73cfe0f9105ae524241bd88ad6f67653
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Simonsohn, Wilhelm
W Simonsohn
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Fighter planes
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Wilhelm Simonsohn (b. 1919), a Luftwaffe pilot.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-08
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
PS: Dieses Interview wird für das International Bomber Command Center durchgeführt. Der Interviewer ist Peter Schulze, der Befragte ist Herr Wilhelm Simonsohn. Heute ist der 4 Juli, 4 August 2017. Wir danken Herrn Simonsohn für die Erlaubnis, ihn interview zu dürfen. Ihr aufgezeichnetes Interview wird Teil des Digitalem Archiv des International Bomber Command Centre werden, das von der Universität Lincoln im Auftrag des IBCC verwaltet und vom Heritage Lottery Fund unterstützt wird. Ihr Interview wird als eine öffentlich zugängliche Quelle aufbewahrt, die für Forschung, Erziehung, online und in Ausstellungen verwendet werden kann. Das Ziel dieses Abkommens ist dafür zu sorgen dass ihr Beitrag dem IBCC Digitalem Archiv hinzugefügt wird, in Übereinstimmung mit ihren Wünschen. Dieser Vertrag ist zwischen der Universität Lincoln („Die Universität“) und den befragten („Sie“) enstanden. Ich, also, wieder noch einmal die drei Fragen. Ich, der Befragte, bestätige dass ich meine Zustimmung zur Aufnahme gegeben habe und das ich hiermit der Universität alle die Urheberrechte für die Verwendung in allen Medien gebe. Ich verstehe dass es nicht meinen moralischen Anspruch beeinträchtigen wird, als Darsteller identifiziert zu werden, dem Urheber, Design und Patentsgesetz 1988 gemäß. Ja oder nein?
WS: Ja.
PS: Danke.
WS: Bitte. So, und jetzt zur Sache.
PS: Nein warte, warten sie bitte. Bitte um Verzeihung.
WS: [unclear]
PS: Nein da sind noch die anderen beiden Fragen. Ich stimme zu, dass mein Name öffentlich mit diesem Interview verbunden wird, aber verstehe dass alle die anderen persönlichen Angaben unter streng vertraulichen Bedingungen gespeichert und nicht an Dritte weitergegeben werden. Ja oder nein?
WS: Ja.
PS: Ich erlaube dass mein Interview online zugänglich gemacht wird. Ja oder nein?
WS: Ja.
PS: Dieses Abkommen wird dem Englischen Gesetz und der Zuständigkeit der Englischen Gerichte unterlegen sein und ihnen ausgelegt sein. So, ehm, ich kann jetzt zu den Fragen kommen.
WS: Ja.
PS: Also, ehm, ich wollte gerne, wir möchten gerne noch etwas zu ihrer Familie wissen, und zu ihren Jüdischen Eltern, also zu ihrem Haushalt wissen.
WS: Ich wurde als, mit zwei Jahren von Eltern adoptiert bei denen der männliche Teil aber ein Jude war. Ich habe ja auch noch einen Jüdischen Namen. Ich habe ab zwei Jahre alt, meine richtigen Eltern habe ich praktisch nie kennengelernt. Ich kenne also nur meine Adoptiveltern, wenn ich von Eltern spreche meine ich [unclear] den diese. Und mein Adoptivvater war ein Jude wenn auch kirchlich getauft und Deutsch nationaler-politischer Gesinnung. Das war’s.
PS: Können sie mir noch ein bisschen mehr erzählen, ich meine wie, wie sich, sagen wir die Geschehnisse.
WS: Ja also, mein Vater war Seeman, der fuhr zur See auf dem P-Linern der Reederei Laiesz. Da kommt jetzt in diesen Tagen aus den USA die Peking nach Hamburg, das ist einer von diesen sogenannten P-Linern der Reederei Laiesz, grosse Seegelschiffe die Salpeter von Iquique von Chile nach Hamburg gebracht haben. Auf diesen P-Linern ist mein Vater gefahren. Er war vor dem ersten Weltkrieg war er an Bord dieser Schiffe. Er hatt sich dann nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg hier niedergelassen in Altona bei Hamburg, also ein Stadtteil von Hamburg jetzt, mit einer Kohlenhandlung. Wir hatten ein Geschäft mit zwei [unclear] und Arbeitsmännern und es ging uns finanziell ging dieser Familie, deren amtliches Kind ja ich geblieben bin da meine Eltern aus biologischen Gründen selbst keine Kinder haben konnten, bin ich in gutbürgerlichen Verhältnissen hier in Hamburg aufgewachsen. Ich habe ein Gymnasium besucht aber nach 1933 ging es dann wirtschaftlich mit uns gleich ab [unclear] das Geschäft meines Vaters boicottiert wurde. Er war ja Jude. Und 1935 waren wir dann wir [unclear] Familie, waren wir finanziell am Ende. Mein Vater, Deutsch-national gesind, wollte nicht auswandern. Er glaubte Hitler sei nur eine kurze Episode und das ginge denn bald vorüber, er dachte nie dann an auswandern. Ich selbst war in der Yachtschule in Blankenese, ein Vorort auch wieder von Hamburg, als junger, als 11, 12, 13, 14jähriger und wir wurden 1934 en block, also die ganzen Jungs in der Yachtschule, in die Hitler-Jugend überführt. Und erst 1935 erfuhr ich das meine Eltern nicht meine leiblichen Eltern sind, sondern meine Adoptiveltern. Das kam dadurch das einer der Jungs bei einem Streit mir den Vorwurf macht: ‘Du bist ja ein Judenlümmel!’ und daraufhin habe ich meinen Vater [unclear] angesprochen und in der Tat hatt sich denn herausgestellt das meine Eltern nicht meine leiblichen Eltern waren. Ich selbst bin dann später eingezogen worden zum Reichsarbeitsdienst 1938 und dann im Herbst 1938 wurde ich zur Wehrmacht eingezogen. Bis dahin also mein Schicksal im Rahmen dieser Familie. Reicht ihnen das jetzt mal?
PS: Ich wollte noch ein Moment wissen was eben nachher mit ihrem Vater passiert ist, wie sich das dann eben.
WS: Ja, ich war im Herbst 1938, im November, drei Tage Soldat, es war also der 3-4 November 1938, da bekam ich dann ein Telegramm von meiner Mutter in dem drin stand, sie hätten, sie, die SS oder wehr, hätten Papa abgeholt. Da war mein Vater an diesem ersten November 1938 tatsächlich von der Gestapo abgeholt worden und [unclear] wurde gebracht in das Konzentrationslager Oranienburg-Sachsenhausen bei Berlin. Mit diesem Telegramm bin ich zu meinem Kompanieschef gegangen und habe um drei Tage Sonderurlaub gebeten, der wurde mir auch gewilligt und ich konnte nach Hause fahren, meine Mutter trösten und habe einen Brief geschrieben an den Gauleiter Kaufmann hier in Hamburg, das ist die höchste politische Instanz gewesen für mich und gerade mit diesem Brief in dem Büro des Gauleiters der mich selbst nicht empfing aber einer seiner Mitarbeiter und nun konnte ich mein Interventionsschreiben ihm übergeben in dem ich aufgeführt hatte welche Deutsch, welche positive Deutsche nationale Gesinnung mein Vater hatte und das er auch im Ersten Weltkrieg Kriegsteilnehmer war und 1935 dafür sogar, und das ist geradezu Paradox, noch im Namen des Führers und Reichskanzlers ein Orden bekommen hat, ein Orden [unclear] noch für Kriegsteilnehmer des Ersten Weltkrieges. Das muss man sich bitte einmal vorstellen, in dem Jahr nämlich 1935 bin ich aus der Hitlerjugend ausgetreten, wir mussten unsere Wohnung verlassen und aus [unclear] Gründen, wir mussten umziehen in ärmliche Verhältnisse, ich musste das Gymnasium verlassen weil wir das Schulgeld nicht bezahlen konnten und mein Vater wurde hier noch als Matrose, obwohl er Nautiker war, bei einer Jüdischen Reederei noch einigezeit [unclear]. Uns ging es dann wirtschaftlich ganz schlecht in dieser Zeit zwischen 1935, November zwischen ‚35 und ’38. Mein Vater ist dann etwa fünf Wochen später nämlich um Weihnachten herum aus’m Konzentrationslager entlassen worden, er kam dann wieder nachhause aber in diese ärmliche Wohnung und er war dann aber seelisch zusammengebrochen. Er hatte keine [unclear] mehr und ist ein Jahr später zuhause, nämlich im Dezember 1939 verstorben. Ich war dann inzwischen also Soldat geworden. Die Geschichte meines Soldatenseins die haben ich ihnen ja glaub ich schon einmal vorgetragen. Hier ist das.
PS: Ja, ich habe dann noch andere drei Fragen für sie.
WS: Ja bitte.
PS: Die erste ist, hat mit dem Episode bei der sie abgeschossen worden sind, am 11-12 mai 1944.
WS: Ja?
PS: Wenn sie mir das ein bisschen besser erzählen konnen, mit ein Paar Einzelheiten.
WS: Ja, wir sind abends von Köln und zwar nach [unclear] um 10 Uhr etwa mit einer Junkers 88, das ist eine zweimotorige Maschine die es auch in einer Nachtjagd Version gab mit Suchgeräten also [unclear]Geräten ausgestattet und entsprechend bewaffnet. Mit [unclear] Brussel – Kanalküste in dieser Nacht mit Einflügen zu rechnen ist und zwar mit Einflügen der Briten mit vorwiegend Halifax und Lancaster, Lancaster vor allen Dingen, die in dem Raum Brüssel-Leopold [unclear] Bomben werfen würden auf Eisenbahnknotenpunkte, das ganze war warscheinlich schon im Vorfeld der Invasion so gedacht das unser Nachschub gestört werden sollte. In diesem Raum zwischen Brüssel und der Kanalküste bin ich dann hin und her geflogen und warscheinlich, in etwa zwischen fünf und sechs tausen Meter höhe, und warscheinlich bei dieser Gelegenheit in einer Richtung und auch zu lange das war also der Grund das mich eine Mosquito in ihrem Funkbordgerät aufnahm, mich verfolgte ohne das ich es wusste, mit meiner Besatzung, wir waren Flugzeugführer, Funker und Mechaniker. Die schossen dann eine Salve von unten nach oben in mein linkes Triebwerk, in den linken Motor und der brannte sofort, das war eine richtige Stichflamme, wir gerieten ins Truddeln, wir sind alle drei aber durch die Bodenlucke ausgestiegen und mit Fallschirm unten gelandet, ein bisschen [unclear] aber doch lebend runtergekommen und sind dann in Brussel-Evere das [unclear] unser Flugplatz [unclear] quasi hingebracht. Das war noch die erweiterte Geschichte meines Abschusses und, aber das ist das bemerkenswerte und da will ich sie bitten wenn sie mich mal in Hamburg besuchen mich daran zu erinnern. Ich habe hier im Flur liegen von einem Holländischen Historiker ist das vollbracht worden die Abschussgeschichte [unclear] Report dieser Mosquitobesatzung habe ich hier in Englisch, die mich damals abgeschossen hat. Und wir waren, meine Frau und ich, wir waren 1980 glaube ich, auf Grund dieser Unterlagen hatten wir Kontakt noch mit einer Witwe die Mosquito [unclear] Flugzeugführer und Navigator und mit der Witwe des Navigators, ein Mike Allen, der war inzwischen verstorben, haben meine Frau und ich in Plymouth noch einen Nachmittag verbracht bei einem sehr guten Gespräch. Das ist wohl die Geschichte meines Abschusses.
PS: Ja, dann noch eine Frage zum, zu dem Thema, sie haben gesagt das als sie flogen, da zielten sie auf die Motoren und nicht auf die Besatzungen.
WS: Ja, es war ja unsere Absichten die Maschinen abzuschiessen und sie daran zu hindern, das ist ja die Logik eines solchen Krieges, darann zu hindern das diese Engländer, diese bösen Briten, bösen [unclear] wenn die unsere Städte zerbombten und in Brand warfen und wir griffen nachts in der Regel ja von unten nach oben an. Wir hatten zwei 2cm Kannonen die schräg nach oben schossen, weil man nachts wenn die Erde dunkel ist von unten nach oben besser sieht [unclear] als von oben nach unten. Da wurde also [unclear] angegriffen und wenn man die [unclear] erkannte überall, die Lancaster hatte ja so eine Spannweite von etwa [unclear] meter wenn man die also erkannte [unclear], dann schoss man auf eine der beiden Tragflächen, wo die Triebwerke sassen, die Lancaster hatte ja vier Triebwerke, auf jeder Seite zwei und [unclear] auf diese [unclear] da schoss man [unclear] war wieder nicht, [unclear] herunter, und [unclear] auch am schnellsten, dass die Besatzung dann eventuell da noch heraus kam, [unclear] noch eine Chance [unclear] oder was abgeschossen wurden. Und auf die Art und Wiese habe ich ja diesen Peter Hinchliffe von den ich schon mal sprach, aus Canterbury haben wir mal kennengelernt bei einem Fliegertreffen das war also einer der, ein Navigator eines Halifax-bombers der ich glaube 1942 war das, [unclear] Köln abgeschossen wurde und am Fallschirm heil unten ankam. Den Namen von Peter Hinchliffe hatte ich ihnen schon genannt.
PS: Ja. Ich habe dann noch genauer gesagt zwei Fragen für sie und dann möchte ich sie nicht länger.
WS: Ja, bitte.
PS: Das erste hatt mit ihrer Gefangenschaft bei den Amerikanern zu tun. Wenn sie mir dass ein bisschen so erzählen können, Einzelheiten wenn sie noch..
WS: Ach ja, das, [laughs] das ist eine Sache für sich. Ich wurde versetzt im Herbst ‚44 im Osten, ich war noch bei der Nachtjagd, zwar in einer Nachtjagdeinheit die die letzten Kriegsmonate und Wochen in Wiener Neustadt und genau in Linz stationiert war. Also ein Gebiet das in April bereits zu Österreich gehöre, wir nannten das ja noch Ostmark, bereits weitgehend von Amerikanern besetzt war. Die Amerikaner kamen von Salzburg im Süden, sie kamen von Passau im Westen und die Russen kamen [unclear] von Wien St. Pölten an die Enns. Der Fluss Enns, der Fluss zwischen Linz und Steyr war die zwischen Amerikaner und Russen vereinbarte Demarkationslinie in Österreich in der damaligen Zeit. Und wir waren mit einer Einheit die hatten noch zwölf Maschinen oder elf Maschinen in Linz und es kam ein Befehl der Luftwaffe, das war ein General Feldmarschal von Greim, der letzte Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe, der sämmtliche Kurierflugzeuge, das sind die [unclear] sogenannten „Fieseler Störche“. Jede unserer Gruppen hatte [unclear] ein Fieseler Storch und diese Fieseler Störche sollten an einen Ort Niederlindach zusammengesetzt werden aus welchen Gründen auch immer und ich war noch [unclear] fuhrer denn ich bekam von meinem Chef Major Zorner den Auftrag mit meinen Fieseler Storch zu einem bestimmten Ort zu fliegen und an diesem Ort, Niederlindach hiess der, habe ich [unclear] gefunden, das ein Sammelplatz sein sollte für die Fieseler Störche. Meine Frau hatte einen Arbeits[unclear]lager in Bregenz am Bodensee und da kamen die Franzosen und sie war schon einige Tage bei mir und ich konnte sie in diesen Fiesel Storch mit an Bord nehmen und so flogen wir beide am 3 Mai ’45, also fünf Tage vor der offiziellen Kapitulation, an einem Dorf bei Steyr bei einem Bauer auf der Wiese mit diesem Fieseler Storch gelandet und so habe ich den Krieg auf eine Lichtung beendet. Am 8 Mai, am 7 Mai kamen die Amerikaner und ich war ja dann inzwischen im Zivil und die Amerikaner haben alle Männer zwischen zwanzig und vierzig etwa dann nach einigen Tagen einkassiert und wir mussten in ein Gefangenenlager marschieren. Dieser Fussmarsch passierte dann auch in der Dämmerung und da bin ich den weggelaufen, da bin ich also entflohen und bin dann gezielt in das Dorf und habe einige Nächte dort im Wald neben den übernachtet. Und nun kommt etwas ganz interessantes. Die Amerikaner hatten offenbar in dieser Gegend logistische Probleme weil die Demarkationslinie, der Fluss Enss zwischen Linz und Steyr eben die Grenze war, die die Amerikaner auf der einen Seite und die Russen auf der anderen Seite nicht überschreiten durften, eben als Demarkationslinie. Das führte dazu das auf der Österreichischen, also auf der Amerikanischen Seite, der Verkehr sich derartig stark verdichtet hatte, mit Panzern und sonstigen Fahrzeugen, das die Amerikaner in dieser Gegend froh waren, jedem Soldaten den sie da aufgabelten die natürlich auch alle schon zivil anhatten, Deutsche Soldaten in ein [unclear]Entlassungslager zu führen, das heisst im Steyr gab es eine Einrichtung wo die Ex-soldaten hingehen konnten und sie wurden, wenn die nicht mehr SS waren, dort entlassen. Sie bekamen eine „D 2-Schein“ das ist dieser berühmte Entlassungsschein. Man wurde untersucht ob man nicht der SS angehört hatte, die hatten ja so eine Tattowierung, man wurde untersucht das man keine Kopfläuse hatte und so weiter und am Ende der Prozedur war man denn entlassen. So bin ich auf diese Art und Weise von den Amerikanern später sogar offiziell entlassen worden. Und konnte dann später, da gab es ja noch einige Umstände, konnte dann später in etwa ende Juli, Anfang August mit meiner Frau auf abenteurlichen Wegen nach Hause fahren. Meine Frau ist in [unclear] zu hause und ich bin in Hamburg zu hause und ich konnte also auch meine Mutter denn im August in meine Arme schliessen und habe am ersten November ‚45, am ersten November ‚45, mein Frau denn also geheiratet. Das ist die Geschichte meiner Gefangenschaft.
PS: Ich fand den letzten Teil sehr rührend, muss ich sagen.
WS: Ich habe sehr viel Glück gehabt.
PS: Ja.
WS: Und Österreich war offenbar bei den Amerikanern irgendwie anders behandelt als das, als im übrigen Deutschen Reich weil Österreich ja mal als [unclear] von Hitler einverleibt wurde und man hat sich den Österreichischen Bevölkerung gegenüber warscheinlich etwas tolleranter verhalten als der übrigen Deutschen Bevölkerung und davon habe ich profitiert weil die Amerikaner ja keine Ahnung hatten das ich ein Hamburger bin und kein Österreicher.
PS: Interessant. Ich habe jetzt nur noch eine Frage für sie.
WS: Ja bitte.
PS: Ehm, es hat, es geht ein bisschen zurück auf das was ich sie das letzte mal gefragt hatte, aber es das war eben um das zu stärken. Über ihre pazifistische Einstellung nach dem Krieg. Das sie mir das noch ein bisschen wieder mal ein bisschen erzählen. Und ihre Einstellung zu den Briten.
WS: Ich bin nach hause gekommen, das sagte ich ja vorher schon, und das Gefühl, das [unclear] Gefühl das wir damals hatten, das war weit verbreitet, war ein Gefühl der Erleichterung, ein Gefühl der Erleichterung weil der Krieg nun zu Ende war, es fielen keine Bomben mehr, es wurden keine Menschen mehr getötet, das [unclear] war vorbei und dieses Gefühl war [unclear] Gefühl. Auf der anderen Seite hatte man dann natürlich auch in Hamburg [unclear] Trümmer, das Leben war viel primitiv, auch die Wohnung meiner Mutter war ausgebombt, wir wurden also sehr [unclear] in der ersten Zeit. Ich hatte noch keinen Beruf erlernt da ja der Krieg dazwischen kam und 1947 wurde eine Volkszählung für die Britische Besatzungszone, das war eben in der Amerikanischen Besatzungszone auch so, eine Volkszählung durchgeführt und an dieser Volkszählung habe ich dann teilgenommen. Und diese Teilnahme an dieser Volkszählung war zugleich mein Übergang zu einer Beschäftigung in unserer Universität in Hamburg, in der Hamburgischen Universität und da habe ich mich beruflich weiterbilden können und war im Laufe der Jahre, das war natürlich ein ganz [unclear], wurde ich Leiter der Personalabteilung an der Universität in Hamburg und wurde später dann ab 1968 das waren dann meine 15 Berufsjahre, wurde ich dann Verwaltungsleiter des Universitätskrankenhauses Hamburg-Eppendorf, das ist ein ganz grosses Klinikum mit über 5000 Beschäftigten [unclear] Sanität [unclear]. Da war ich also dann Verwaltungsleiter und bin dann 1981 pensioniert worden. Und habe dann mit meiner Frau, inzwischen waren Kinder geboren, habe mit meiner Frau mir einen Megakarawan gekauft und wir sind 18 Jahre lang nach meiner Pensionierung, im Herbst [unclear] gefahren durch Frankreich, nach Nordafrika, oder über den Italienischen Stiefel, nach Sizilien, nach Tunesien, 18 Jahre lang haben wir, im Winter eher dort unten unser Reisen [unclear] verbracht. Von diesen Erinnerungen haben ich viele Photographien gemacht, Photos gemacht, von diesen Erinnerungen [unclear] heute noch ein bisschen. Und heute bin ich mit, ich werde im nächsten Jahr 98 so Gott will und heute bin ich noch in der Zeitzeugenbörse, ich gehe in die Schulen, halte Vorträge, beantworte Fragen undsoweiter, über die Nazi Zeit und so, und versuche den Jungen Menschen beizubringen und ihnen [unclear] wie wichtig es doch ist, das die Menschen hier in Europa in Frieden leben und am Beispiel Deutschland ist es ja noch viel das Dank der [unclear] nach 1945, Marshall Plan, [unclear] Union, Wiedervereinigung undsoweiter, das hier hierzurzeit mehr al 72 Jahre hier in Europa, dank dieses Europas, mit unseren unmittelbaren neunen Nachbarn in Frieden leben. Das ist eine Zeitspanne die es für Deutschland in seiner Geschichte in dieser Menge noch nie gegeben hatt. So, da haben sie es. Sind sie noch da?
PS: Ja ja, ich bin noch hier, ja.
WS: Ach ja.
PS: Ja. Also, ich würde jetzt Schluss machen und immerhin ich verbleibe mit ihnen das ich ihnen das Material schicke und das wir noch in Kontakt bleiben.
WS: Ja, das wäre sehr schön.
PS: Und ich hoffe das es die Möglichkeit geben wird, das ich sie besuchen kann. Und, ja, Ich danke ihnen erst recht herzlich mal noch einmal für ihre Zeit und für ihre Geduld.
WS: Ach ja, keine Ursache und wenn sie mal nach Hamburg kommen, dann kommen sie bei mir vorbei, ich habe wie gesagt einen ganzen Akten Unterlagen in Englischer Sprache, also aus Englischen Berichten der 141 [unclear] Group, das ist eine Mosquito Gruppe gewesen und da sind die [unclear] worden. Da habe ich die Unterlagen unter dessen Umständen abgeschossen hat. Die können sie kopieren und die würde ich [unclear]. Wenn sie nach Hamburg kommen.
PS: Danke, danke, vielen Dank.
WS: Gut.
PS: Jetzt erstmal sehr vielen Dank von seiten des ganzen Bomber Command International Archive und wir werden in Kontakt bleiben.
WS: Ich hätte noch, ich hätte nie gedacht das ich mit einem Menschen der diesen [unclear] des Bomber Command vertritt irgend noch in [unclear] weise mich unterhalten kann. Das Bomber Command, das Britische war ja, als wir damals Krieg hatten, ein Rotes Tuch für uns, logischerweise. Wir waren ja Feinde. Und jetzt sind wir, Gott sei dank, sind wir alle in einem Gut.
PS: Ja.
WS: Und haben Frieden und hoffentlich bleibt dieser Frieden erhalten.
PS: Ja, hoffen wir, ja. Noch vielen Dank.
WS: Ja bitte, gern geschehen.
PS: Ich verabschiede mich jetzt bei ihnen und wir melden uns dann. Alos, das Projekt meldet sich dann und schickt ihnen alles.
WS: Gut.
PS: Vielen Dank und ich wunsche ihnen noch einen schönen Abend.
WS: Gern geschehen. Schönen Abend wünsche ich ihnen noch. Auf Wiedersehen.
PS: Tschüss, Auf Wiedersehen.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Wilhelm Simonsohn
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Fighter planes
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Wilhelm Simonsohn remembers his wartime service as a Luftwaffe night fighter pilot. He tells of his adoption by a Jewish family, and the discovery of his father’s background after being lampooned as ‘Jewish scum’ at school. He emphasises family hardships as a consequence of the racial policy of Nazi Germany. He describes how his father, despite being a recipient of a First World War medal, was deported to Sachsenhausen-Oranienburg Concentration Camp and later released. He tells how he used to fire at the engines of British aircraft in flight over Belgium so as to give aircrew a chance to bail out. He recounts being shot down by a Mosquito while patrolling the airspace between Belgium and the Channel coast whilst on the lookout for Lancaster and Halifax bombers. He remembers events at the end of the war: his unit being posted near Linz in Austria; being ordered to ferry a Fieseler Storch to a small airfield; being taken prisoner and later freed by American troops. He stresses his relief of now being on good terms with his former foes, something hitherto unthinkable.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Peter Schulze
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-04
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:33:08 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
deu
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Belgium
Austria
Austria--Linz
Germany--Sachsenhausen (Brandenburg)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASimonsohnW170812
anti-Semitism
bale out
bombing
Halifax
Lancaster
Mosquito
perception of bombing war
prisoner of war
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/399/Memoro 9775.2.mp3
2183990828db87de2c30e0fd5466ecfa
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
VF: [part missing in the original file] nel ’43 ci fu il primo bombardamento e fino allora gli aerei americani, le fortezze volanti passavano, suonava l’allarme però nessuno si preoccupava perché non c’erano grandi obiettivi. Infatti noi guardavamo, contavamo le fortezze volanti che passavano, quaranta, cinquanta, sessanta, poi finiva, cessava l’allarme e si riprendeva la vita normale. Fino a che il 22 novembre del ’43 invece tutti a guardare in aria e a contare e invece sganciarono le bombe, fu una carneficina che ci furono tantissimi morti. [part missing in the original file] ero in una villetta a Foligno insieme a mio padre e mio fratello. Suona l’allarme, sentiamo gli aerei, io esco sulla porta di questa villetta per contare, guardare come sono, sennonché [makes a booming noise] mi cade una scheggia sulla punta della scarpa e mi ha portato via la punta della scarpa. Se mi fosse inclinato un po’ di più mi avrebbe preso in testa addirittura. In quell’occasione avevano preso la caserma, una bomba su questa caserma che era proprio di fronte a questa villetta, poi da lì siamo sfollati, subito dopo siamo andati anche perché casa mia era vicino all’aeroporto. [part missing in the original file] Nel ’44, mentre noi eravamo sfollati, [part missing in the original file] le nostre case erano state occupate da dei militari inglesi che venivano mandati indietro dal fronte per riposare [part missing in the original file] e quando questi se ne andavano, lasciavano di tutto, proiettili, armi, bombe a mano, mitragliatori. [Part missing in the original file] alla fine della guerra noi siamo rientrati cioè non finita la guerra ma passato il fronte [part missing in the original file] pomeriggio io andavo a giocare con dei ragazzi, degli amici [part missing in the original file] un pomeriggio giocando abbiamo trovato nella legnaia di questa casa una bomba a mano ma noi non sapevamo che era una bomba a mano. Era una bomba di quelle frastagliate inglesi tipo ananas. Stiamo tutti e cinque a guardare. Uno di noi la teneva sulle mani questo affare e noi tutti e cinque sopra a guardare. Ad un certo momento dico ‘io vado a fare merenda’, io a casa mia. C’è da premettere che tutti i pomeriggi la signora, la mamma di questi due ragazzi dava da mangiare la merenda a tutti quanti anche perché a casa non è che ce ne fosse molto. Quel giorno invece dico ‘io vado a fare merenda’. Comunque mi allontano di neanche cento metri, il tempo di girare, la bomba a mano è scoppiata e questi ragazzi sono morti sul colpo, gli altri due sono morti il giorno dopo e io grazie a Dio mi sono salvato, grazie a Dio, la fame non lo so o l’angelo custode [part missing in the original file] accade un fatto che mi ha dato tanto da pensare su sulla fortuna, sul valore della vita, non so, sulle circostanze. [part missing in the original file] è stata una cosa molto triste, sì [part missing in the original file] finita la guerra stavo a Foligno. Praticamente abbiamo visto arrivare gli Americani, è finita la guerra tra la lotta tra partigiani e i Fascisti [part missing in the original file] ho visto arrivare gli Inglesi o gli Americani con tristezza mentre c’era gente in giro che applaudiva, le ragazze che portavano i fiori agli Americani, io invece avevo [part missing in the original file] cresciuto con la speranza che, via, la guerra finesse un po’ meglio, cioè sono stato un po’ fedele fino all’ultimo ai miei ideali, coi quali ero stato abituato e quindi, ecco, a me è rimasta la tristezza di vedere la fine dell’Italia in questo modo. Però dopo la guerra ho presentato [part missing in the original file] I vecchi fascisti che continuavano a avere le loro sezioni e le loro idee [part missing in the original file] poi invece ho lasciato perdere in tutto e per tutto la politica e non mi sono più interessato.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Vittorio Finauri
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Vittorio Finauri (b. 1931) remembers the first bombing of Foligno on 22 November 1943. Explains that it was completely unexpected and people were caught unprepared, so bombs aimed at nearby barracks resulted in a heavy death toll. Describes how some friends were accidentally killed while playing with a hand grenade left in a house previously occupied by British soldiers, stresses that he survived by pure chance and mentions how the act prompted him to reflect on his faith. Remembers his mixed feelings towards the Allies at the end of the war and explains how he had hoped the conflict would have ended differently.
Format
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00:05:38 audio recording
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Memoro#9775
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Foligno
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11-22
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
faith
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/332/Memoro 3847.2.mp3
d4f25aa63c6175b4a688e8a144e07248
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
UV: Devo dire che l’impatto con il mondo dell’energia elettrica è stato molto, ma molto forte. Difatti sono nato a fianco, ossia la mia stanza confinava con una cabina 30, 30000, 30/10 kV e lì sono rimasto fino a sei anni. Ricordo un gattino che mi sfuggì entrò dentro la cabina, si mise tra i due fili, ci fu un gran lampo ma il gattino sparì. Poi dopo, mio padre era caposettore della Unes, prima a Falconara e poi ci trasferimmo a Senigallia e lì ho vissuto fino a vent’anni sopra una cabina dell’ENEL, che mi dava, mi riscaldava un po’ d’inverno ma d’estate era un po’ ‘na tragedia. In questo periodo io ho visto tante cose, attraverso mio padre perché ho vissuto nell’ambiente proprio dell’attività giornaliera e ricordo le cose più brutte, quando i tedeschi fecero saltare, fecero portare fuori i trasformatori dalla cabina, lo fecero saltare, poi presero tutti i contatori e gli operai con le mazze li dovevano spaccare tutti, questi sono i ricordi che mi sono rimasti in mente. E poi ricordo anche il periodo successivo della ricostruzione. Ricordo anche che mio padre, siccome c’era un ponte che veniva bombardato quotidianamente quasi ogni giorno, la linea 30000 che passava vicino era costantemente colpita e quindi bisognava ripararla perché era la dorsale che portava l’energia da, lungo la costiera. E mio padre per far sì che gli operai non avessero paura delle bombe inesplose, mentre loro lavoravano, si stava seduto sopra le bombe, si metteva seduto sopra le bombe per far vedere che loro potevano star sicuri. Questi sono ricordi che sono rimasti impressi.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Umberto Veroli
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
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00:02:07 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#3847
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Senigallia
Italy
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Umberto Veroli (b. 1933) recollects wartime memories when his father was an electrical engineer: living close to power substations; a kitten killed by an electric arc; Germans forcing workers to remove transformers and smash meters. He describes how his father was tasked with repairing a main transmission line running along the Adriatic coast which had been damaged by heavy bombing. He reminisces on the image of him seated on top of unexploded bombs in order to to persuade the repair team that they must not be feared.
License
A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource.
Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
childhood in wartime
fear
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/71/718/AMagnaniT170303.2.mp3
79ada1c6e318efb07ff780ad71942b47
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Magnani, Tullio
Tullio Magnani
T Magnani
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with Tullio Magnani who reminisces his wartime experiences in the Pavia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-03-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Magnani, T
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare il Signor Tullio Magnani. Siamo a Pavia, è il 3 marzo 2017. Ringraziamo il Signor Magnani per aver permesso questa intervista. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Magnani, vuole ricordarci i suoi anni durante?
TM: Dunque, sì, gli anni trascorsi dalla guerra in avanti.
FA: Esatto.
TM: Allora, prima di tutto, vengo da una famiglia di lavoratori. Naturalmente ho annusato il sapore dell’antiregime di cui si viveva allora. I miei genitori erano nettamente contrari al fascismo ma naturalmente non ho avuto neanche problemi a scuola. Sapevano chi era il papà, che è stato considerato un sovversivo comunista, ma per la verità nel periodo scolastico fatto durante il fascismo non ho avuto noie. Nel 1944, il 4 di settembre le superfortezze volanti americane e inglesi, alleate insomma, hanno prodotto un grosso bombardamento a Pavia e noi che abitavamo in Via Milazzi [Milazzo], della parte destra del fiume Ticino, siamo rimasti senza casa. Ci siamo salvati perché eravamo scappati nei boschi vicini. Naturalmente io e la mia famiglia ci siamo ritrovati nel territorio di Travacò a pochi chilometri da Pavia e da lì è cominciata la mia permanenza, gli ultimi mesi di guerra fino al 1945 a Mezzano Siccomario una casa che ci ha ospitato perché eravamo senza niente, eravamo ridotti proprio, io addirittura ero a piedi nudi quel giorno là. Però nel frattempo i miei genitori mi avevano mandati a casa di una famiglia, Lorenzo Alberti, che era un noto esponente dell’antifascismo pavese e che verrà arrestato nel 1944 con tutto il comitato del CLN provinciale e spedito in Germania. Ritornerà vivo e vegeto nel 1900, nel lontano 1945 dalla Germania. E naturalmente ero andato lì come garzone di bottega perché lui vendeva le macchine per scrivere e naturalmente faceva la, curava tutto l’andamento delle macchine che aveva nei vari uffici durante il regime fascista e la presenza del comando tedesco. E accompagnando l’operaio che doveva fare manodopera alle macchine da scrivere, io portavo una borsa vuota, leggerissima all’ingresso, pesante quando uscivo. Naturalmente controllato era l’operaio, io che avevo quattordici anni sia i fascisti che i tedeschi non mi perseguivano, non mi, non facevano i controlli. Poi abbiamo saputo che in quella borsa lì uscivano i bollini per l’approvigionamento degli alimenti. Perché in quel periodo dovete sapere che c’era contingentato i generi alimentari. Naturalmente questi bollini per il tesseramento andavano alla resistenza ecco. Quello era la cosa che io ho scoperto dopo la liberazione. Naturalmente di questo, di questi ricordi che ho avuto lì e anche nel comune di Travacò li ho messi giù, insomma i ricordi c’ho un fascicolo che consegno anche all’intervistatore. Ci sono alcuni particolari. Particolare è che un bel giorno, una mattina, l’operaio di questa ditta, Alberti, mi dice di andare presso l’istituto di anatomia umana dell’Università di Pavia a ritirare qualcosa. Io arrivo all’istituto di anatomia umana e a questo custode chiedo il nome e questo uomo già un po’ avanti con l’età, mi consegna una busta gialla con scritto ’Regia Università di Pavia’. Questa busta la riporto in negozio al mattino. Nel pomeriggio sempre l’operaio mi dice che doveva farmi fare una commissione fuori Pavia, e ha preso quella busta che avevo consegnato al mattino, l’ha messo dentro a una cartella, tipo quella di scuola, di cartone e m’ha detto: ‘Vai a Travacò a portare questa busta, devi andare all’inizio di Travacò alla frazione Frua e cercare la signora Brusca’ che poi ho capito si chiamava Bruschi, la chiamavano Brusca, io dico: ’sì sì sono pratico di quei posti lì perché ero, sono sfollato lì, in quei posti lì’, infatti non ho fatto fatica a trovarla una donna anziana con un cappellaccio di paglia in testa. E io dico: ’io devo consegnare questa a un signore che c’è qui’. E lui m’ha, lei m’ha detto: ‘È quel signore seduto su una cariola.’ Era un omino un po’, non troppo alto con un grosso paletò, che poi ho riconosciuto come segretario del Partito Comunista provinciale in, clandestino, l’ho ritrovato nell’immediato dopoguerra. Era Carlo Zucchella.
FA: Ah.
TM: E quella busta, ‘io devo consegnare questa roba a questo signore, sì, sì, io l’aspetto. Gliel’ho data. Era un’altra missione che mi han fatto fare. E questo mi è, mi è ancora caro ricordare quel territorio lì del Travacò adesso. L’intervistatore venne mandato dall’ex sindaco Boiocchi che abbiamo una forte amicizia e ricordo sempre quel territorio anche perché sono legato a tutta la gente che ho trovato lì, che purtroppo non ci sono più tanti. Poi ci sono anche altri episodi sempre fatti attraverso la bottega di Lorenzo Alberti. Mi dicono di andare in piazzetta, vicino alle scuole Mazzini a Pavia e io gli ho detto: ’Sì, sì’. Erano le mie scuole elementari, le conosco. Bene, proprio di fronte alla scuola vai su all’ultimo piano e devi portare questo era anche lì, una busta, una busta più pesante di quelle che ho portato prima. E in quella casa c’era un tavolo da disegno, che usano i disegnatori. E c’era un uomo che era là che m’aspettava. E c’era, a disegnare c’era uno che poi m’han detto che era un sordomuto. Era il disegnatore. Anche qui vengo a sapere, dopo la guerra, che questo signore era Cino del Duca, un grande editore di giornali e di riviste. Era anche lui membro della resistenza. E i ricordi sono tanti, gli episodi sono tanti. Sono ancora vivo anche per miracolo anche perché durante queste azioni, che io nulla sapevo l’importanza di quello che facevo, se venivo beccato non ero qui a raccontarlo.
FA: Certo.
TM: E è arrivata la liberazione e io con i miei quindici anni mi sono divertito come gli altri. Sono arrivati le truppe inglesi, la prima camionetta americana giù nel Ponte Vecchio di Pavia e ho ripreso a vivere come dovevamo vivere, a noi ragazzi alla nostra età ci è mancato cinque anni di vita.
[telophone rings]
FA: Allora, prima della pausa stavamo dicendo della liberazione.
TM: La liberazione...
FA: È tornato a vivere in borgo?
TM: No, non eravamo più in borgo perché la casa non ce l’avevamo più. Mio nonno era un pescatore, aveva le barche, tutto, è andato tutto in fumo, tutto, distrutto tutto, non avevamo più niente. Mia mamma e mio papà han trovato un appartamento vicino Piazzale Ponte Ticino ma in città. E lì è arrivata la prima camionetta americana, mi ricordo sempre, questo giovane americano, noi naturalmente ragazzi ci siamo andati tutto intorno avevamo fame e loro distribuivano cioccolato e questo qua si chiamava Dino perché era figlio di italiani, no, e aveva un sacco enorme. M’ha detto se trovavo una donna che gli avesse lavato la biancheria. Io subito gli ho detto: ‘c’è mia mamma’. E lì vicino abitavamo e ho detto, ho chiamato mia mamma, c’è questo soldato americano e ha detto che se gli lavava la biancheria c’era una cassa di sapone. Quando lui ha fatto vedere la cassa di sapone, mia mamma è saltata dalla gioia. Per dire i momenti e, ricordo ancora e ricordo anche questo fatto di questo americano che si chiamava, poi c’ha dato tanta roba da mangiare. E naturalmente lui poi è andato via. E’ stato lì due o tre giorni, ha ritirato la biancheria pulita e stirata e con grande dispiacere di mia mamma non l’abbiamo visto più. Io voglio raccontare, questo racconto dovrebbero sentirlo anche milioni di giovani perché la guerra c’ha tolto cinque anni di vita a noi ragazzi. È scoppiata che avevo dieci anni, è finita che ne avevo quindici. La fame totale, lo studio non c’ho più pensato, era talmente la gioia della liberazione che molti ragazzi miei amici non andavano più a scuola. Poi pian piano abbiamo ripreso ma poi m’ha preso un’altra cosa, la politica. E questa politica mi ha preso talmente che non ho proseguito gli studi e medie, liceo e avanti, questo. Però ho sempre chiesto e ottenuto di sapere, di volere, di sapere le cose, ho fatto uno sforzo io coi libri e anche. Il partito voleva dire tante rinunce, tante sacrifici ma il partito mi ha dato molto nel senso che nell’istruzione poi sono andato a fare dei corsi prima brevi poi brevi, poi abbastanza lunghi per cui ho fatto il mio percorso di apprendimento scolastico. Mi sono sposato, tre figli, quattro nipoti, avevamo un, abbiamo rilevato un negozio che era di mio papà ma non andavamo bene, sono entrato [clears throat], sono stato assunto dopo tante peripezie in Comune, perché voglio dire anche questo: ho partecipato a un concorso per agenti daziari e quando sono arrivato agli esami orali per essere ammesso, dopo aver presentato lo scritto, mi è stato detto che non avrei, non sarei mai stato assunto perché, essendo un corpo armato, non potevo accedere a quel posto lì per via di una vecchia legge fascista che impediva di entrare in questo corpo armato agli iscritti al partito comunista, o anche ai figli dei comunisti. Per cui però ho fatto un po’ di lavoro saltuario nelle scuole a sostituire alcuni bidelli ammalati e così via, insomma il comune mi ha sempre tenuto da conto finché poi è venuto il momento, sono entrato nel corpo vigili urbani come tesoriere e ho fatto per ventidue anni il cassiere al comando vigili di Pavia. Ma prima sono stato anche un dirigente della Gioventù Comunista e ho sempre mantenuto queste idee. Purtroppo adesso non c’è più niente, ma ho cercato di educare la mia famiglia a questi ideali e sono stato anche premiato perché sono contento dei miei figli, dei miei nipoti.
FA: Va bene.
TM: E adesso ho davanti un giovane che mi intervista e sono felice di poter rispondere a questo giovane che tra l’altro si è laureato con un personaggio che a me molto caro che è il professor Lombardi e il professor Guderzo.
FA: Tornando un attimo indietro nel, diciamo nel tempo del suo racconto, potrebbe provare a ricordare, a raccontarci quella giornata del 4 settembre?
TM: La giornata del 4 settembre ha dei precedenti. Intanto la guerra è scoppiata nel ‘40 e non so adesso con precisione ma noi da Pavia vedevamo i lampi dei bombardamenti di Milano di notte, Milano è a un tiro di schioppo da qui in linea d’aria, si vedevano i lampi, bombardavano Milano e poi venivamo a sapere che verso il ’42-’43 bombardavano anche i ponti del Po che collegavano Pavia. E noi stavamo su anche, poi per noi era un, cioè era anche bello di notte, stavamo su tra noi gli uomini pochi perché erano tutti alle armi, e allora venivamo a sapere i problemi delle famiglie questa qui, quella là, quello lì, quello là, insomma vedevamo... poi arrivano i cacciabombardieri americani, bombardano la parte nord di Pavia, ma così dei raid, di, due, tre aerei che hanno sganciato alcune bombe e han fatto qualche morto nella zona di Porta Stoppa di Pavia, la parte nord di Pavia. Quindi prima del 4 di settembre Pavia era stata
FA: Già.
TM: Aggredita dai, ma poi noi vedevamo che sull’argine del Ticino la milizia fascista aveva fatto delle postazioni con delle mitragliatrici antiaeree, che poi si sono rivelate in niente, insufficiente, erano giocattoli rispetto al momento, insomma c’erano già delle armi migliori, cioè le avevano i tedeschi, ma queste qui, e noi le vedevamo, noi capivamo che erano mitragliatrici per contrastare gli aerei. E il 4 di settembre c’è un precedente nel senso che due giorni prima a ondate successive queste superfortezze volanti cariche di bombe passavano su Pavia verso il nord, cioè andavano verso Milano, dicevano che andavano in Germania perché Milano non la bombardavano in quel periodo lì.
Interviewee’s wife: Buongiorno.
TM: La mattina di, del 4, mia moglie, ah questo ragazzo pensa Antonia.
AM: Piacere, Antonia.
FA: Filippo, piacere.
TM: C’è acceso. La mattina del 4 di settembre del ’44 mio papà si trovava al di là del fiume perché lavorava in fabbrica. Mia mamma stava cucinando qualcosa. Noi ragazzi quando passavano quegli aerei lì andavamo nel bosco adiacente lungo l’argine del Borgo Ticino per cui dopo che sono passate a ondate successive queste superfortezze volanti è arrivato il bombardamento. È stato un disastro, sembrava la fine del mondo non ci, l’atmosfera era rossa dai mattoni, picchiavamo contro le piante per scappare, insomma. Poi dopo è venuto anche il mitragliamento che è stato micidiale perché ha mitragliato verso la parte est di Pavia. Io come un automa come altri nostri amici ci siamo dispersi e siamo fuggiti verso Travacò, lungo l’argine verso Travacò e io sanguinavo, non me ne accorgevo. Nel pomeriggio ho ritrovato i miei genitori che io non pensavo più. Mio papà si era salvato perché era al di là del fiume. Mia mamma è stata salvata dal crollo, la casa non era completamente crollata, e per cui ci siamo ritrovati alla frazione Battella di Travacò Siccomario io, i miei genitori e tanti altri. Poi naturalmente i nostri genitori, tutti quelli, i borghigiani, cittadini che hanno perso la casa, molti sono arrivati nel comune di Travacò e hanno organizzato qualcosa per, insomma. [background noise] Abbiamo fatto due notti in un fienile, poi dopo siamo arrivati a Travacò e a Mezzano. Il podestà di allora, un certo Bruschi che, pur essendo fascista ci ha molto aiutati, siamo andati nelle scuole di Mezzano e i nostri genitori e tutti gli altri adulti hanno organizzato una mensa, son arrivati i generi alimentari, c’è stato un enorme, una cucina per cuocere i cibi. Dopo una settimana che eravamo lì, un giorno pioveva a dirotto, sono arrivati la Feldgendarmeria tedesca, che sarebbe la polizia militare tedesca, con un sidecar, questi due uomini mettevano paura, grandi, grossi, con questo soprabito di cuoio nero, ci hanno imposto di lasciare immediatamente le scuole e ci siam trovati in mezzo alla strada che pioveva. Eravamo un centinaio, figli, genitori, ma subito è arrivata la solidarietà del paese e ci hanno ricoverato un po’ di qui un po’ di là. Insomma la cosa è andata bene insomma, non c’è stato altro e devo dire che io da ragazzo mi ricordo ho vissuto lì fino, da settembre a due mesi prima della guerra, un paese dove, tenuto conto che mio papà era un segnalato come sovversivo, problemi non ne abbiamo mai avuti, quindi la cosa. Poi la liberazione è giunta che abitavamo già a Pavia.
FA: Ha parlato di generi alimentari.
TM: Sì.
FA: Si ricorda da dove, chi era, non so c’era un ente?
TM: I generi alimentari ce li portava il comune di Pavia.
FA: Ah, il comune di Pavia.
TM: Sì. Però dicevano, io ho saputo, che dovevamo procurarci un mezzo per arrivare da Travacò a Pavia a prender la roba, farina, riso, pasta, no. E questo podestà fascista Bruschi Pierino ha messo a disposizione un carro col cavallo e uno di noi mi ricordo ancora chi era andava a Pavia a prelevare la roba. E sono arrivate anche le brande. Il comune di Pavia ha messo a disposizione le brande e i generi alimentari. Devo dirlo con schiettezza. Cioè, pur nel disastro, il comune di Pavia è stato attento a queste cose.
FA: A queste esigenze. Prima ha detto che lungo gli argini vi erano delle, diciamo delle postazioni antiaeree, delle mitragliatrici.
TM: Sì, sì.
FA: Erano, vi erano soldati italiani o tedeschi?TM: Italiani. Erano quelli della milizia fascista.
FA: Ah, le milizie.
TM: Io, noi li conoscevamo anche perché alcuni abitavano lì vicino. La milizia fascista eran della gente che, la miseria era tanta, l’occupazione era, andavano nella milizia, alcuni andavano per sopravvivere.
FA: Per sopravvivere.
TM: Perché poi portavano a casa il rancio che gli davano in caserma. Io avevo due amici di figli, erano figli di due fascisti che erano nella milizia. E han fatto delle piazzole che adesso nell’argine non si vedono più e hanno piazzato queste mitragliatrici. Noi andavamo là a vederle eh. Erano rivolte verso là.
FA: Verso là.
TM: Però ci hanno detto gli esperti che erano stati a fare il militare che queste mitragliatrici agli aerei americani non gli facevano nulla. Soltanto però qui in questo, più più a nord di questo rione c’era una postazione di antiaerea tedesca, quella lì sì era..
FA: Vicina al cimitero forse.
TM: No, dopo.
FA: Ah, più in là?
TM: Più in alto. Addirittura c’è, lì c’è stato un, c’è uno stele che ricorda un antifascista che è andato a parlamentare con i tedeschi il giorno della liberazione per evitare che, perché loro minacciavano di bombardare tutto, è andato lì a parlamentare con i tedeschi, l’hanno ucciso. C’è ancora lo stele lì, in Piazza, Piazza Fratelli Cervi.
FA: Ah.
TM: Sì. Beh volevo dire che sì, quello che m’ha chiesto lei sulle piazzole erano nell’argine che dal Borgo va al Canarazzo, che va a Carbonara al Ticino, c’erano le piazzole della [laughs]
FA: Ah.
TM: E poi dopo il bombardamento del Ponte della Libertà che chiamavano dell’Impero una arcata è stata centrata dagli aerei americani e han fatto, i tedeschi han fatto il traghetto, traghetto con dei barconi, traghettavano e traghettavano dopo il ponte della ferrovia che era crollato anche lui. E noi andavamo a vedere tutte queste robe qui. Eravamo ragazzi. Il giorno della liberazione eravamo lì. Vedevamo i vigili urbani con la fascia tricolore il 25 di aprile in bicicletta. La città oramai era praticamente in mano agli insorti. I tedeschi si riunivano nel Castello Visconteo d’accordo con le forze partigiane. I fascisti erano scappati, c’era ancora qualcuno che per esempio dalla centrale dell’università un fascista ha sparato, poi è stato preso. E noi abbiam vissuto anche quello, da ragazzi eravamo lì rischiando anche perché c’erano dei proiettili vaganti. Fino al 26 aprile quando sono arrivate le, proprio le formazioni partigiane dell’Oltrepò Pavese dirette. Che poi il professor Lombardi ha fatto un bel libro dove parlavano di queste cose, della missione che i partigiani dell’Oltrepò Pavese hanno fatto, a Dongo hanno, quando hanno catturato Benito Mussolini.
FA: Va bene.
TM: Io le ho vissute con l’entusiasmo dei quindic’anni e non ho mollato più.
FA: Eh sì, quindi eh, poi lei dopo quel il primo bombardamento diciamo che ha subito vi siete spostati a Travacò. Avete continuato ad avere notizie, a vedere i seguenti bombardamenti sul borgo?
TM: No, noi, mia mamma e mio papà venivano, io rimanevo a Travacò venivo naturalmente a vedere di recuperare le cose che c’erano sotto i bombardamenti. Devo tenere conto che mio nonno aveva una bella attività di lavoro. Intanto erano lavandai, lavava la, erano lavandai il nonno e la nonna, avevano i clienti che portavano la biancheria da lavare. E mio nonno aveva un torchio, lo chiamavamo un torchio, era una centrifuga per strizzare i, che poi è venuta la lavatrice, ma era questo enorme cilindro che girava per strizzare i panni delle lavandaie. Anche lì l’abbiamo perso, abbiamo perso cinque barche, abbiamo perso molte reti da pescatori, insomma siamo stati molto danneggiati, siamo rimasti. Poi mio papà si è dato da fare per, come tutti, ricostruirsi una vita, cominciato a fare il commerciante di frutta e verdura e così.
FA: Ha detto che suo papà lavorava dall’altra parte del Ticino.
TM: Lavorava dall’altra parte del Ticino che era la ditta Cercil. Era una ditta specializzata che i tedeschi non la trasferivano in Germania. L’hanno fatto lavorare in Italia. Mio papà era preoccupato perché molti operai specializzati venivano trasferiti in Germania a lavorare per l’industria bellica tedesca. Per fortuna quella fabbrica lì non è stata smontata e ha continuato a lavorare fino agli ultimi giorni di guerra lì. E per io papà era un bel rifugio oltre che posto di lavoro per vivere era, cioè tenuto conto che lui era considerato un sovversivo, come li chiamavano stato mandato al confino sei mesi perché cantavano il primo maggio all’osteria e per lui era una salvezza eh avere un posto di lavoro così. Aveva una tessera per poter fare i turni di notte perché c’era il coprifuoco. Dopo le nove e mezza di sera non si poteva più girare. Se ti prendevano senza documenti venivi fucilato. Io ho vissuto tutte queste robe qui. Andavamo al cinema alle sette di sera perché era l’ultimo spettacolo. Andavamo tutti al cinema per scaldarci perché non avevamo più niente da bruciare in casa. Mancava la legna, mancava tutto.
FA: E la fabbrica di suo papà non è mai stata toccata da nessun bombardamento, nessun danno?
TM: La fabbrica, no, la fabbrica di mio papà si trova vicinissimo il viale lungo il Ticino e si trovava in Via Della Rocchetta. Che adesso han fatto, in quel cortile lì, han fatto abitazioni civili ma era la fabbrica Cerliani che l’altra è più avanti è stata fatta qui al Chiozzo c’è una fabbrica Cerliani.
FA: E producevano?
TM: E producevano filiere, meccanica, meccanica fine, roba non so. Io non sono pratico, non sono mai entrato in una fabbrica. Era proprio. Parlava, papà parlava di ‘ho l’esonero’ cioè non sono esonerato a non andare in Germania con gli operai
FA: Certo.
TM: E perché smantellavano le fabbriche i tedeschi e trascinavano gente in Germania a lavorare. Molti non rientravano più. Beh, da quel punto di vista lì ci è andata bene.
FA: Voglio farle un’altra domanda. Nella zona intorno a casa sua e del borgo, c’erano dei rifugi antiaerei, c’erano?
TM: No, in borgo non c’erano rifugi antiaerei. Noi scappavamo, i boschi dietro a via Milazzo, ancora adesso, c’erano i boschi. C’è il bosco fino a verso Travacò e noi ci [unclear], intanto sì rispetto ai bombardamenti l’abbiam fatta franca però se mitragliavano il bosco non era tanto, ti prendevano. No, a Pavia c’erano delle case, dei palazzi con, io ci sono stato perché andavamo a scuola, con i rifugi antiaerei che con le bombe americane erano, pff! E perché hanno centrato il borgo? Il borgo l’hanno centrato per via del Ponte Vecchio. Perché, se guardiamo bene la mappa di Pavia, i primi due ponti a saltare per aria nettamente sono stati quello delle ferrovie e quello cosiddetto dell’Impero che è Viale della, che è quello della Libertà
FA: Libertà.
TM: Mentre invece il Ponte Vecchio proprio per essere coperto, dalle fotografie inglesi che hanno fatto non veniva fuori netto il ponte, per cui ecco perché la parte di Borgo Ticino ha avuto dei danni con le bombe. Che loro volevano centrare il Ponte Vecchio, l’hanno centrato ma non l’hanno fatto saltare in aria. Ponte Vecchio, quello preromano, quello romano pre spagnolo, non è mai andato giù nettamente come non gli altri ponti. Per cui, no, non c’erano rifugi antiaerei come li ho visti io, in città, nei palazzi, dove si andava in cantina e queste cantine erano sostenute da pali, da travi, sacchetti di sabbia, no, in borgo non c’era niente.
FA: Insomma, ci si doveva arrangiare.
TM: E’ stata una carneficina perché i morti sono stati tanti. Poi è saltata per aria, il bombardamento successivo, la parte della città dove, viale lungo il Ticino, cioè la Via Rezia, che è stata colpita a metà. Lì avevo la nonna e la zia che abitavano lì hanno perso la casa anche loro. Però essendo sui posti di lavoro in un’altra parte si son salvate.
FA: Ho capito. Ehm, lei ha parlato prima del suo rapporto, del rapporto della sua famiglia con quel soldato americano ecco. Nonostante, diciamo il fatto che foste stati bombardati, questo vi ha?
TM: Ah per noi, gli abbiamo accolti con perché poi c’era questa atmosfera, caro giovane. Un po’ i fascisti ironicamente li chiamavano liberatori, tra virgolette, no, ma erano per noi, pur nella disgrazia. La guerra intanto non l’abbiamo, non c’entran niente gli americani, la guerra l’ha voluto il fascismo, per cui, vabbè, la mia famiglia, ma come in tutte le famiglie di gente povera, eravamo ridotti talmente male che aspettavamo gli americani. E devo aggiungere per inciso che noi, in Via Strada Nuova c’è ancora una farmacia che si chiama Farmacia Tonello. Un bel giorno sono arrivati i poliziotti in borghese, sono andati dentro da questo farmacista anziano, adesso vanno avanti i nipoti, e l’hanno arrestato, lo abbiamo saputo dopo, perché ascoltava Radio Londra. Radio Londra, io l’ho sentita, perché mio papà si sintonizzava alla sera c’era questo colonello Stevens che diceva [hums the beginning of Beethoven’s 5th Symphony] ‘Qui è Londra che parla’. Parlava in perfetto italiano e ci, ci aggiornavano. Parlavano anche dell’Armata Rossa che stava avvicinandosi alla Germania e parlavano anche che loro ormai erano arrivati anche in Italia, erano sbarcato giù, sapevamo tutto. E hanno arrestato il farmacista Tonello perché l’hanno colto in flagrante mentre ascoltava Radio Londra.
FA: Radio Londra.
TM: Naturalmente dopo due o tre giorni l’hanno rilasciato, era un uomo vecchio. Anche questo episodio ho sentito. E sì, Radio Londra trasmette. E noi, quel giorno che è arrivato, come detto, questa jeep americana, si è fermata nel piazzale pieno di macerie, eh noi ragazzi eravamo tutti attorno, per noi gli americani, intanto per la prima volta vedevamo gli americani, vedevamo gli inglesi, no. Gli Inglesi avevano nel loro esercito, avevano anche gli indiani col turbante e gli americani, questo americano si chiamava Dino, mi ricordo, non mi va via più dalla mente e per noi, lui, io avevo quindic’anni, questo soldato americano avrà avuto ventidue, ventitre anni, era un ragazzo come noi quasi insomma. Ci ha riempiti di cioccolato. Non potete, voi adesso non potete immaginare la contentezza che aveva il popolo italiano pur nelle macerie, pur, molti morivano di fame eh, perché ho saputo dopo, gli ospedali si sono riempiti perché la gente non mangiava. Io ero considerato uno scheletro. Io mi sono sposato con la mia compagna qui che ero sotto peso. Era il 1957. Ne portavo ancora le conseguenze, del mangiare che non abbiamo fatto. Per cui, loro ci hanno buttato giù la casa ma per noi ci hanno liberato.
FA: OK. Dopo.
TM: Viva gli alleati!
FA: Dopo il bombardamento del 4, è, ehm è tornato su in borgo o?
TM: Certo [emphasises], ci vado quasi tutti i giorni. Ho ancora qualche amico ma il più è il posto e naturalmente il territorio di Travacò. [pause] Ogni martedì, con i due o tre amici che ho ancora, andiamo in un’osteria di Travacò, non tanto per mangiare, possiamo mangiare anche a casa no, ma tanto per trovarci.
FA: Ho capito. Ehm, può descriverci le devastazioni diciamo che ha subìto, le devastazioni che ha subìto il borgo?
TM: Dunque, prima di tutto io ho saputo, dopo, dopo quella mattina del quattro di settembre del ’44, siamo fuggiti, siamo fuggiti, siamo scappati, un po’ di qui, un po’ di là, come ho ricordato prima, a Travacò, ma i bombardamenti si sono susseguiti. C’è stato una carneficina perché poi la gente si spostava verso San Martino. Presente Via Dei Mille? E sono andati in un tunnel che attraversava la strada e questo tunnel è dalle parti di, via sempre di Via Dei Mille, all’altezza di Strada Persa. C’era questo tunnel e la gente, per loro era diventato un tunnel antiaereo. Molta gente è andato dentro in questo tunnel. Alcune bombe sono arrivate anche lì, ma non perché hanno saltato, hanno bucato la strada, una bomba è esplosa ai lati del tunnel, c’è stata una carneficina nel Borgo.
FA: Lo spostamento d’aria.
TM: Sì, il piazzale attuale del borgo è stato tutto distrutto, chi lo vede adesso vede le case recentissime, solo la parte sinistra andando in là dove c’era la farmacia erano rimaste le vecchie case, per il resto son tutte nuove. Abbiamo perso degli amici lì, molti amici, ci giocavamo assieme. Nel mio cortile ci son stati dodici morti di anziani e gente appena arrivata. Ma la parte centrale [emphasises] del Borgo Ticino, cioè all’imboccatura del ponte vecchio, che c’è il piazzale che si chiama Ferruccio Ghinaglia, lì ho perso quattro o cinque ragazzi della mia età, non ci sono più, son rimasti lì. Per cui il borgo è, c’è un monumento lungo il Ticino voluto da un mio carissimo amico che adesso non c’è più, Calvi Agostino, che continuiamo a raccontare un po’ di cose sul calendario della AVIS tutti gli anni raccontiamo qualcosa del borgo, tutto lì. Naturalmente la Via Milazzo è stata salvata, salvo [emphasis] il mio cortile. Il mio cortile è stato l’ultimo a essere colpito da quella parte lì. Tutta la parte che va giù verso il Ticino si è salvata. Purtroppo noi siamo scappati, io non ho fatto più ritorno fin quando i miei genitori han trovato casa in città e anche lì un po’ ho stretto amicizia con i giovani del paese e mi ricordo, mia mamma aspettava mia sorella, che è molto più giovane di me e andavamo naturalmente siccome vivevamo in una stanza unica, meno male, era una stanza sia per dormire che per mangiare per cui, mentre mio papà era al lavoro, io e mia mamma andavamo in un’osteria a prenderci il cibo già pronto che ci cucinava per noi. Era bello insomma, vivevamo tranquilli in quel paese lì, trovavamo più da mangiare che non prima perché la campagna, insomma se ti dai da fare insomma, se hai i mezzi eh, perché se non hai i mezzi non c’è niente.
FA: Lei l’ha visto Pippo?
TM: Pippo, Pippo bombardava di notte. Bastava accendere un fiammifero che magari ti colpiva. Proprio davanti al mio cortile, se posso darti del tu no? Il mio intervistatore, come ti chiami di nome?
FA: Filippo.
TM: Filippo, ecco, caro Filippo, vai a fare un giro dopo. All’inizio di Via Milazzo, c’è il numero 9, è il mio cortile.
FA: Ah.
TM: Che ancora qualche fuori [muro] perimetrale, ancora la vecchia casa ristrutturate, dentro è tutto nuovo, perché è saltato per aria. Lì era il posto dove con le barche partivano di notte per andare a pescare. Caricavano le reti, erano sempre sei barche eh. Perché non era come il mare. Gettavano le reti nel fiume ma tiravano stando a terra gli,
FA: Ah.
TM: Per cui avevano bisogno di tanta manodopera, no. E avevano una lanterna, una lanterna a petrolio. È arrivato Pippo, ha lanciato uno spezzone, ha ucciso un uomo che, con un papà di un mio amico. Pippo ha colpito anche l’imbarcadero che adesso c’è dove c’è il ristorante Bardelli?
Fa: Sì.
TM: Lì c’era l’imbarcadero Negri. Pippo ha colpito anche lì. E devo dire che in una giornata bellissima come quella di ieri, a Travacò ero, ritornavamo da Pavia, io, mia mamma e mio papà che eravamo stati in prefettura a prendere qualcosa, ci davano un po’ di sostentamento, tutto a piedi eh. C’era un ricognitore inglese, un bimotore, che era talmente basso che si vedevano le figure degli uomini che c’erano dentro nella carlinga. E a volo radente eh. Noi ci siamo, ah beh la paura era tanta perché mitragliavano. A Cava Manara hanno mitragliato un corteo funebre, hanno mitragliato proprio il carro funebre. E non so, erano convinti che era una manifestazione di fascisti [laughs] o di tedeschi, vabbè e noi, si aveva paura anche di questi aerei che poi risultava un ricognitore. Sono quelli che facevano le fotografie, sempre inglesi erano. E quel ricognitore me lo ricordo sempre, una bestia sopra di noi, abbiam visto le figure degli uomini perché il bimotore aveva la carlinga senza motore, i due motori erano, sì, mi ricordo anche questo.
FA: Li avete visti quindi distintamente.
TM: Sì, li abbiamo visti benissimo e ci siamo scansati, ci siamo buttati giù a lato, io, mia mamma e mio papà. Eh sì, poi io ho sempre avuto paura di, sono rimasto scioccato. Andavo a nascondermi nei fossi asciutti del Travacò, uscivo sempre, io avevo il terrore di stare in casa fino a quando poi mi è passato ed è finita la guerra [laughs].
FA: Ho capito. Senta le faccio una domanda che...
TM: Sono qua.
FA: C’entra diciamo relativamente meno con il discorso che stavamo facendo. Lei nel ’48 era già all’interno del Partito Comunista?
TM: Ero già all’interno, devo dire che nel Partito Comunista il giorno della liberazione erano il 40, 25-26, i partigiani sono arrivati il 26-27, naturalmente si ballava si, c’era una grande confusione anche, il, ho visto, han portato un carico di fascisti che hanno fucilato in Piazza d’Italia, era la mattina del primo maggio o due maggio. E io, come ragazzo, ho aiutato, ho detto: ’ cià, vedete in Corso Mazzini, venite, venite aiutarci’, c’era un carretto dallo studio dell’avvocato Sinforiani che poi è stato eletto senatore della Repubblica trasferito un sacco di roba, cartacea no, dentro nelle casse con questo carretto del fruttivendolo li abbiam portati in Broletto. Il Broletto, bel palazzo eh, è stato occupato sia dai comunisti che dai socialisti, primo piano i comunisti, secondo piano i socialisti. Io naturalmente sono andato lì e ho partecipato a questo trasloco di documenti da Corso Mazzini e da allora sono entrato al Broletto aiutando questi partigiani che portavano la roba lì, si è instaurata la federazione comunista. Da allora ho frequentato, perché mio papà è diventato ambulante con un banco fisso di frutta e verdura in piazza, proprio di fronte al Broletto per cui vivevo lì e non ho mollato più. E allora non era ancora rinata la Federazione Giovanile Comunista perché è rinata nel ’49, io ho partecipato alla costituzione perché ero lì. Nel partito comunista se non avevi sedici anni non ti prendevano
FA: Ah!
ed eri considerato membro candidato, io ho ancora i documenti, e dovevi essere presentato da tre persone adulte perché allora la maggiore età si aveva a ventuno anni. Ma nel partito ti prendevano a sedici anni come membro candidato e ti davano la tessera ma eri oggetto di indagini, da dove venivi, chi eri e. Questo è importante. E sì, l’ho avuta, ma nel ’46, nel ’45 no, ero lì senza tessera. Ma avevamo il Fronte della Gioventù, che era un’organizzazione nata nella resistenza fatta di giovani liberali cattolici, comunisti, socialisti, era il Fronte della Gioventù. E abbiamo occupato i locali della ex-GIL, che adesso c’è il comando vigili di Pavia,
FA: Ah, sì.
TM: Là dalla curva. Sì siamo andati lì, abbiamo organizzato anche la balera, facevamo ballare, dappertutto si faceva ballare allora. Poi naturalmente noi eravamo comunisti. E nel ’48 ho partecipato al, alla battaglia elettorale che, la battaglia elettorale era una roba, bisognerebbe parlarne bene di queste robe, era una battaglia con i manifesti che la Democrazia Cristiana ci batteva tutti. Andavano ad attaccare i manifesti anche sotto le grondaie per via che loro avevano le scale delle chiese, è importante!
FA: Quindi belle lunghe.
TM: Lunghissime, che noi non avevamo. Noi potevamo al limite arrivare a tre metri. E poi loro avevano più mezzi.
FA: Bene.
TM: Ho partecipato a questa battaglia. Mi ricordo che il primo, abbiamo fatto una roba che, una roba da giovani. Il partito comunista ha fatto un bellissimo manifesto ‘Quo Vadis, dove vai, o Signore?’ e l’abbiamo messo sotto il portone del vescovado nottetempo. Però siamo stati individuati ma non siamo stati presi in flagrante e poi dopo ce l’han fatta pagare per il lancio dei volantini nei cinema. Si andava in guardina una notte, a lanciare i volantini nei cinema non autorizzati [emphasises] ti beccavano, andavi in guardina fin domani mattina.
[Doorbell rings]
TM: Tonia, guarda un po’. E, bisogna ricordarle queste cose, ai manifesti,
Unknown speaker: Chi è?
TM: il partito mi mandava in questura a portare i manifesti, bisognava metter la marca da bollo e venivano listati.
TM: Chi è?Ormai ci pensa lei, eh.
Unknown speaker: La signora Casella
TM: Venivano listati, bisognava andare in questura, allora c’erano le marche da bollo. Poi il partito mi mandava senza essere funzionario andavo con la corriera che si chiamava la Lombarda a .Milano con i soldi nella borsa a prendere le tessere. Era dove c’è la Mediobanca a Milano c’era l’Alto Commissariato Altitalia che per tutta l’Italia settentrionale c’erano le tessere e i bollini del partito e bisognava andare là con i contanti e prendere, a fare i prelevamenti, mandavano me che avevo diciotto anni, diciannove anni. Poi sono diventato funzionario del partito. Poi ho smesso quando non ne potevo più. Non si mangiava perché il partito, sì esisteva la cifra dello stipendio ma che non vedevamo mai e fin quando ero solo tiravo ma poi dovevo sposarmi e ho dovuto, non uscire dal partito ma non fare più il funzionario, lavorare con mio papà a vendere la frutta e la verdura per poi andare in Comune a lavorare.
FA: Va bene.
TM: Altro, io sono sempre a disposizione.
FA: Va bene allora la ringraziamo per questa intervista.
TM: Che cognome hai?
FA: Andi.
TM: Anni?
FA: Andi.
TM: Andi. E Filippo.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tullio Magnani
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Tullio Magnani remembers his wartime years in the Pavia province. Although his father was blacklisted as a subversive communist he did not have any trouble at school. He recounted his role as a young resistance helper smuggling food rationing coupons, while working as a shop boy for a well-known antifascist. Remembers being an eye-witness to the bombing of Milan from Pavia. Retells of a machine gun being set up by fascists on the Ticino river bank, which proved ineffective against allied aircraft. Mentions the strafing of a funeral procession at the Cava Manara municipality carried out by what was thought to be a spotter aircraft. Remembers 'Pippo' bombing at night and targeting the fishermens wharf. Stressing how, during the intense bombing and strafing of Pavia on 4 September when they lost everything, the local fascist authority of Travacò municipality was very helpful in providing them with cots, food and lodgings in a school. Mentions wartime episodes: people seeking refuge in a tunnel used as a makeshift shelter and the carnage that ensued from the bombing, a chemist being arrested for being caught red-handed listening to Radio London, how some driven by poverty and hunger, joined the fascist guards and resorted to going to the cinema before the curfew to find a warm place to stay. Explains how Pavia’s old bridge, unlike the other two which were hit, was not hit by the bombers because it was not clearly visible in the reconnaissance photographs taken from aircraft. Describes the celebrations at the end of the war and reflects on the duality of bombers / liberators. Remembers seeing for the first time an American soldier called Dino, who gave them a soap crate as a gift for washing his laundry. Mentions post war acts of revenge, his role in the local branch of the communist party, the 1948 general election, and how he did not get a job as a tax collector because of his political persuasion.
Creator
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Filippo Andi
Date
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2017-03-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:52:11 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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AMagnaniT170303
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy--Pavia
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-09-04
1948
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/428/3600/PSamoreT1801.1.jpg
4e25eab2fa61b9c7d8bd7e75647a3e64
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/428/3600/ASamoreT180206.2.mp3
8a05a3481143895a718a4d6e010f2719
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Samorè, Tito
Tito Samorè
T Samorè
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Tito Samorè who recollects his wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-02-06
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Samore, A
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ZG: Allora, l’intervista è condotta per l’International Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi. L’intervistato è Tito Samorè. Nella stanza è presente Francesco Samorè, il figlio. L’intervista ha luogo a Milano in [omitted] ed è il 6 febbraio 2018. Possiamo iniziare. Quindi, signor Tito, come prima cosa io le chiedo, qual’è il ricordo più vecchio che ha?
TS: Dunque, il ricordo più vecchio, di prima della guerra o durante la guerra?
ZG: Di prima della guerra.
TS: Di prima della guerra. Facevo tiratore scelto con i Balilla [laughs] che eravamo dieci in tutta Italia che ci portavamo a tirare a segno con carabine da tiro a segno e facevamo le gare di tiro a segno. Eravamo bravi, ci mandavano in giro a fare vedere che i Balilla erano bravi, sapevano sparare bene, ecco e via, però . Continuato, diciamo poi anche a nel futuro, nel passato diciamo continuato a tirare, a fare tiro a segno fino a quando mi ha detto: ‘No, non si può perché dovresti passare la nazionale in piedi e io sono un monocolo perché ho perso, durante la guerra ho perso una parte [laughs] e quindi quella lì già una seconda parte e poi si andava a scuola quel giorno, il primo giorno che è stato fatto il bombardamento del primo aprile, no, del giugno mi sembra del ’40, primo bombardamento di Milano, eravamo, era un pomeriggio tra parentesi di solito qui mettono turni invece siamo, siamo nel pomeriggio del, di quel, del primo bombardamento del ’40, del giugno del ’40 era, 16 giugno o il 19, eravamo per strada per Milano con mia madre e noi siamo cinque fratelli però eravamo solo i due maggiori andavano a spasso, gli altri erano ancora da venire certi e quindi. Ed eravamo un giro a spasso per Milano, Via Dante per la precisione, e quando a un certo punto abbiamo sentito suonare l’allarme però la gente, al primo momento non, non pensava neanche che potessero bombardare se ne fregavano un pochettino e se ne sono accorti quando si sono visti il primo [mimics the sound of the artillery] dell’antiaerea, ha cominciato a sparare l’antiaerea e si sentono arrivare gli aerei e la gente ha cominciato a fuggire. Mia madre che era una tipa molto veloce, diciamo, tenendoci saldamente per le mani tutti e due, mio fratello maggiore c’ha ormai novant’anni, io ce ne ho un po’ di meno ma diciamo la gente si scappava, la gente che fuggiva e non si sa bene per dove perché si vedevano gli aerei che arrivavano però la gente fuggiva e mia madre ci ha preso per le mani e ci ha fatto entrare in un portone che si trovava e siamo stati lì ad aspettare e io e mio fratello che eravamo i curosi naturalmente come tutti i ragazzini su questa faccia della Terra e guardavamo, vedevamo gli aerei e vedevamo dagli aerei cadere i grappoli, cadere dei grappoli ma mia madre diceva: ‘Ricordate ragazzi, stanno bombardando’ di mamma, guarda se bombardano adesso sopra di noi le bombe andranno, saranno circa mille metri le bombe andranno giù a ottanta, cento, duecento di qua quindi [laughs] aspettiamo che, che poi sono passati questi qui e poi sono andati via, è stato un bombardamento veloce però c’erano anche i loro morti, le loro, la gente era terrorizzata per un momento poi passato diciamo il terrore praticamente era abbastanza calma, certo, c’era gente che piangeva perché pensava alla casa, pensava ai bambini, pensava robe del genere, non sapeva dove erano cadute le bombe, poi così il terrore delle case che erano in fiamme e quindi, e c’erano case in fiamme, c’erano danni ma a me personalmente non è che abbia fatto terrore, era un’esperienza [laughs] e basta ecco. Questo è il primo bombardamento e poi, poi, poi [laughs] e poi ne sono passati tantissimi altri però in teoria non è che ci facessa paura molto a Milano almeno che è una città un po’ stramba [laughs] non ha dato quel terrore che gli americani, gli inglesi pensavano, speravano che sostenesse e bombardavano il giorno dopo che eravamo già lì a ricostruire o tirare via le macerie in Italia sì, c’erano proprio dei cosi specializzati, andavano subito a controllare che lo stabile stesse ancora in piedi, fosse ben, sgombrarlo e lasciarlo cadere oppure farlo cadere giù del tutto quindi c’era molta roba che veniva tirata via dalle strade, le strade erano pulite e soprattutto anche poi per tirare fuori i morti se c’erano, per evitare infezioni eccetera. Milano era molto tranquilla sotto certo, non ci faceva piacere c’erano case che bruciavano roba del genere però non era piacevole tant’è vero che ad esempio la prima cosa che ha fatto mio padre senza avere ordini specifici perché non gli avevano dato ha detto. Dunque partiamo dal principio che le case di Milano sono fatte di mattoni e di cemento e sono tutte però in legno la parte interna perché i pavimenti non avevano le travi di cemento traverse, c’avevano le travi di legno con su il carnicciato di legno e poi il pavimento. I tetti erano in legno, coperti da tegole ma erano in legno. I solai di solito erano in legno. Quindi erano molto più facili da incendiare ma l’esterno del fabbricato era rimasto così. Uno che passa per Milano dice case vecchie, oh, che strano ma come fanno a essere ancora case vecchie, dicevano che Milano era stata distrutta parecchio. Ma, sì, è stata distrutta perché erano bruciate da questi spezzoni incendiari la casa gli spezzoni erano bruciati. Mio padre aveva fatto, aveva messo uno strato di un metro e mezzo di sabbia in solaio e quella c’ha salvata la casa perché dopo, dopo gli anni che abbiamo cominciato a tirar via quella roba lì per vedere che cosa facesse eccetera eccetera, visto che c’erano questi spezzoni che erano dei pezzi di quaranta centimetri circa dodici esagonali che non esplodevano all’interno, quando riuscivano, quando entravano si incendiavano ma non esplodevano era solo la parte fosforsa, al fosforo perché l’odore era quello, il che scioglieva e incendiava se c’erano dei, e salvato così dal, si infilava nella sabbia e la nostra casa [laughs] non era toccata ecco. Insomma [unclear] [laughs]
ZG: Le faccio subito una domanda ed era, i suoi genitori che lavoro facevano?
TS: I miei genitori, dunque mia madre era casalinga e mio padre era dirigente di una azienda del, di produzione di forni da gas per le, per i grandi città. Difatti poi i tedeschi era stata militarizzata e i tedeschi volevano parecchie cose e lui, grazie a una segretaria italo-tedesca, che doveva fare segretaria dei tedeschi che però era più dalla parte partigiana che dalla parte tedesca e ci dava, dava a mio padre quello che avrebbero chiesto a lui perché sapeva tutto quanto di, lei era segretaria anche stenografa e sapeva quello che dicevano questi qua insomma. E quando hanno fatto le liste dei, diciamo, di presa degli operai specializzati per spedirli in Germania e lui ha fatto una cosa molto semplice. Ha detto dunque quali sono gli operai specializzati? Sono questi qui, allora ha avvisato gli operai specializzati adesso quando dicendo, adesso quando c’è il prossimo bombardamento dunque cominciamo premettendo che tutte le robe che ci interessano a noi di materiale ecco speciale, non so, lo stagno, l’argento, quello, materiali che servivano per fare non solo le aziende del gas ma anche contatori, quelli elettrici eccetera, erano aziende che facevano tante cose non ne facevano due o tre e ha presso tutte queste robe per dire le abbiamo messe dentro, le abbiamo, le ha messe dentro dei capannoni e questi capannoni ha aspettato quando c’è stato un bombardamento e [mimics the sound of a dropping bomb] una bomba è caduta non sul capannone ma su un altro capannone che per fortuna era vuoto e, vuoto di gente, e invece gli altri capannoni hann fatto [makes a booming noise] bella carica di dinamite al posto giusto e ha fatto crollare tutto. Il materiale buono era sotto in cantina, sopra c’era roba e in più c’hann messo dei poveretti che erano morti dopo il bombardamento, no, difatti li hanno sparsi un po’ qua, un po’ la e, irriconoscibili, e poi i, invece gli operai specializzati che avrebbero dovuto essere presi, li ha fatti andare via veloce perché diceva, prima di finire in Germania [unclear] se ritornate [laughs], smammate. Difatti poi dopo, subito dopo la guerra i sindacati, che allora c’erano i sindacati comandavano in quel momento, e l’avevano nominato direttore generale era quello che mandava avanti l’azienda ecco, poi dopo c’è stato qui tutto un insieme di cose.
ZG: Quindi la segretaria che parlava anche tedesco.
TS: La segretaria che parlava tedesco, parlava anche italiano perché naturalmente lei era un italo-tedesca, pardon, di madre credo, non ricordo più.
ZG: E quindi i tedeschi non sapevano che lei parlasse tedesco.
TS: I tedeschi sapevano che lei parlava tedesco perché [unclear] quindi lei aveva in materiale di discussione dei pezzi grossi tedeschi di Milano che sapeva tutto, diffusione, a tutti ma soltanto a quelli che poi dopo sapevano ma. Che poi lì era una cosa un po’ a parte però fa sempre parte della guerra e diciamo i tedeschi avevano dato a mio padre l’obbligo di costruire forni speciali per la distillazione degli alberi per fare benzina. Lì c’hanno impiegato un bel po’ di tempo a farlo, però a un certo punto a dovuto farla. Ha dovuto farla e questi qui sono andati, dovevano andare in Germania a presentare questa proposte dicevano disposizione di sì e poi tornare indietro. E con la macchina c’è andata anche la segretaria. So che, non si sa bene cosa sia successo, con precisione, a meno quanto diceva la segretaria, lei a un certo punto in un certo posto sapeva che c’era un passo di montagna che in un certo punto dietro una curva c’era un masso. Quando la macchina si è fermata, lei ha detto: ‘Ho bisogno urgente di fare la pipì’ [laughs]. E’ sparita. In quel momento sono arrivati degli aerei in picchiata che sapevano evidentemente l’ora, minuto e secondo di quel [unclear] e [makes a shooting sound] hanno spianato i tedeschi con macchine relative perché delle specie di bombe incendiarie di quelle un po’ e quindi tutti i disegni eccetera eccetera. La segretaria poi abbiamo saputo dopo che è passata direttamente tra i partigiani quindi [laughs]. Questa è una cosa che sapevano ben pochi tra parentesi [laughs]. Molto in pochi, soprattutto la faccenda dei, capannoni e della gente che era riuscita, è andata bene insomma. Certo, se lo beccavano [laughs].
ZG: E senta, appunto per questo posso chiederle qual’era il nome dell’azienda?
TS: Eh?
ZG: Il nome dell’azienda qual’era?
TS: La azienda era la Siri Chamont, [clears throat] scusate, la Siri Chamont, era un’azienda di origine francese, fatta da dei francesi, poi era però diretta da italiani ormai durante la guerra, poi siamo passati poi [unclear]
ZG: I capannoni si ricorda in che zona di Milano erano?
TS: Sì, in Via Savona, in fondo Via Savona 98 mi sembra [laughs] si perché sono passati un po’ di anni.
ZG: E senta a questo punto le faccio anche l’ultima domanda ed è, si ricorda per caso l’anno?
TS: L’anno?
ZG: Del bombamento dei capannoni.
TS: L’anno, aspetta un attimo, dunque l’anno era già, dunque nel ’43, deve essere luglio, bombardamento, dunque [mumbling/babbling] mitragliamenti, sempre nel ’43.
ZG: Va bene, non si preoccupi, non è fondamentale.
TS: [mumbling/babbling] era nel ’43, perché era già nel [unclear] solo che non mi ricordo se era nel ’43 o nel ’44, questo è il fatto perché.
ZG: Non si preoccupi, non è, non è necessario. E invece il nome di suo padre qual’era?
TS: Francesco. Francesco Samorè, ingegniere.
ZG: E per caso si ricorda anche il nome della segretaria?
TS: No, anche perché mio padre a un certo punto aveva anche un po’ paura di far sapere a tanti. Con noi, cioè ne aveva parlato praticamente dopo la guerra ma
ZG: Quindi lei ha saputo tutte queste cose finita la guerra.
TS: Finita la guerra, sì, sì, anche perché non potevano sapere, noi eravamo dei bambini, sai ne parli con un altro bambino il quale [unclear] bambino neanche [unclear], ciao.
ZG: Senta invece, tornando a prima della guerra, lei per caso si ricorda quando è scoppiata la guerra?
TS: Sì, sì, sì, sì, mi ricordo che c’è stato il famoso discorso del Duce che diceva appunto che avevano fatto la guerra eccetera eccetera e mio padre aveva già detto mi ricordo quello lì che aveva detto questa è una grande [unclear], potevamo farne anche a meno eravamo neutrali un pezzo per un pezzo siamo rimasti neutrali. L’Italia, l’Italia non ha partecipato subito alla guerra con i tedeschi perché i tedeschi hanno incominciato con la Polonia, non dicendo niente agli italiani. Tieni conto che nel periodo immediatamente prima della guerra i tedeschi volevano invadere l’Austria ma il presidente dell’Austria in quel momento era un socialista ed era un socialista giolittiano come mio padre. Non so perché anche Mussolini ha mandato due divisioni di alpini al confine con l’Austria in Austria, no, per difendere l’Austria dalla Germania. Quindi la cosa è stata stranissima perché Mussolini conosceva già Hitler. Hitler ha imparato da Mussolini malauguratamente. Solo che, non so se la gente lo sapesse questa faccenda perché sono stati mandati a proteggere l’Austria dall’invasione tedesca. Poi è morto il loro presidente e Hitler ha fatto i cavoli suoi, e ha occupato, fatto l’Anschluss, come dicono i tedeschi che [unclear] ecco. Poi cosa c’è d’altro.
ZG: Quindi.
TS: Scusa la voce.
ZG: Si sente benissimo.
TS: [unclear]
ZG: Quindi lei sentì il discorso di Mussolini?
TS: Il primo discorso sì, uno dei primi discorsi, quello precedente, poi quello dell’Etiopia, pi la cessione, la nomina del re Vittorio Emanuele III a imperatore dell’Etiopia, poi la conquista dell’Albania, perché è stata conquistata l’Albania molto prima della guerra e poi cosa mi ricordo? Ci sono state tante cose che, molte, io mi ricordavo che ero giovane mi piaceva, siccome mi piaceva tirare a segno veramente ci portavano al tiro a segno nazionale col fucile. Era una carabina fatta aposta a tiro, non erano moschettini che dicevano dei moschettini, no, no, era una signora carabina, meno pesante, il tiro era soltanto, venticinque metri circa, non era i cinquanta metri, cento metri però facevamo, eravamo in pochissimi [unclear], in tutta Italia eravamo dieci, neanche.
ZG: E quindi
TS: Anche quello c’è poca gente che lo sa [laughs]
ZG: E quindi questi discorsi qua li sentiva alla radio?
TS: Eh?
ZG: Questi discorsi qua li sentiva alla radio?
TS: Eh, c’era la radio, non c’era la televisione in quel periodo. Avevamo già una signora radio super, me la ricordo, una radio che era anche buona, si sentiva bene, si sentiva anche la radio britannica che faceva [mimics the opening of Beethoven’s symphony] facevano [mimics] voleva dire che era la trasmissione inglese per gli italiani, ecco.
ZG: Suo padre dopo lo scoppio della guerra, le ha mai parlato della guerra? Le ha mai detto qualcosa?
TS: Tante cose. Ci commentava ad esempio il fatto di certe, della guerra in Libia, che essendo entrata in guerra, l’Italia era legata poi a difendere la Libia e non ce la faceva. E difatti in pochissimo tempo c’avevano conquistato [unclear] che c’era una famosa canzone di gero bubbo me la ricordo alcuni pezzi [laughs]. Ah, posso dirtela? Dunque, ce n’era uno che colonnello, su questa rima, adesso canto male, colonnello, non voglio il pane, voglio sabbia per il mio sacchetto, poi c’erano tutte le cose, non voglio l’acqua, non la voglio, [unclear] e c’era questa diciamo canzone che l’avevano fatta perché Gera bubo era un posticino disperso in fondo alla Libia, gli inglesi lo potevano mangaire in due minuti e mezzo, non c’aveva niente, avevano fatto dei carri armati con i trattori con delle piastre d’acciaio e dei [unclear] che i carri armati normali erano delle schifezze pazzesche [laughs]. E poi c’erano tante di cose che, che sapevamo noi giovani perché io avevo mio fratello che aveva, che ha sei anni più di me e quindi aveva certe informazioni che io non avevo ancora. Però eravamo tutti e due appassionati dell’aviazione, del, sapevamo dei modellini, ci facevamo noi i modellini, sapevamo tutto, questo qui sono gli aerei tedeschi, le migliori ali tra parentesi. Dicevamo di bercero, diceva, degli inglesi, le migliori ali, no. E così degli inglesi eccetera non mi ricordo più che cosa diceva di male [laughs], non me lo ricordo più, però sapevamo che l’aereo così così era inglese, così così era tedesco, quindi avevamo già una certa conoscenza, è per quello che non avevamo avuto la paura dicendo a mia madre guarda che se li vediamo sulla testa vuol dire che sono già [unclear] le bombe [laughs] anche se non andavano a delle velocità pazzesche, andavano sì e no a seicento chilometri all’ora se c’arrivavano. Se c’arrivavano eh perché un bombardiere carico di allora più di quattrocento chilometri all’ora, ciccia [laughs].
ZG: Ehm.
TS: Tieni conto che l’Italia aveva vinto il campionato mondiale per l’idrovolanti, ce la faccia? Aveva vinto il campionato del mondo per gli idrovolanti quindi era una gara fatta anche con gli inglesi, americani eccetera eccetera. E avevamo fatto un idrovolante che credo che fosse già stato fatto dalla Macchi però i motori non mi ricordo di chi, se erano, non me lo ricordo, era un motore [unclear] in ogni caso avevamo già una forma molto affusolata, e il motore aveva l’elica, due eliche sulla stessa asse di cui una girava in un senso e un’altra in un’altra per evitare che l’aereo avesse, il movimento della coda tendesse a girarlo, ed è arrivato a settecento chilometri all’ora, è stato un record che è rimasto uguale, tutt’ora, perché per i motori a scoppio non sono mai riusciti ad arrivare [laughs] e poi dopo abbiamo fatto delle baracche perché in Italia siamo furbi, molto furbi, avevamo costruito, dunque avevamo costruito gli idrovolanti e poi avevamo costruito anche gli idrovolanti che lanciavano i siluri e potevano lanciare i siluri e poi hanno cessato la produzione e l’hann fatto gli inglesi in confronto. E c’hanno affondato a Taranto, no, a Taranto, sì, sì, ha Taranto hanno affondato la flotta italiana, una parte, con i loro, con i loro idrovolanti, questo, però esattamente se ti devo dire il giorno, l’ora, l’anno non me lo ricordo proprio però è stato uno dei primi [unclear], applicazioni di siluri sugli idrovolanti. Che l’hanno fatto gli inglesi però, non gli italiani, non avevano mandato avanti la cosa. L’abbiamo fatta dopo, come al solito. E così pure anche il radar. Marconi, quando aveva fatto la cosa, il radar l’aveva già fatto, ma non gli hanno dato retta. E’ andato a farlo poi in Inghilterra e in Inghilterra l’hanno fatto. Questo non lo so io se lo sapesse qualcuno ancora [laughs], c’è tanta roba che io so guarda che tu non hai. Perché eravamo interessatissimi io e mio fratello ci interessavamo molto delle armi, del tipo di arma, di quello che veniva fatto ad esempio quando c’è stata la cosa in Russia, a parte il fatto che mio padre ha detto: ‘Ma quello è scemo, come al solito’, ma questo è un altro discorso perché [unclear] mi raccomando [unclear] una cosa del genere [laughs] che hanno mandato gli alpini, li ha mandati con un’attrezzatura che quando ci sarà il gelo saranno dolori, infatti è successo ben così [laughs]. Questo è una poi ce ne sono ancora un po’ parecchie [laughs] c’ho un’enciclopedia ormai dentro di questa roba qui che fa paura quindi non saprei dirti tutto [laughs].
ZG: Ma, dov’è che vivevate? Con suo padre, con la sua famiglia, dove vivevate a Milano?
TS: Noi vivevamo prima a Milano poi siamo sfollati a Santa Margherita Ligure, poi [laughs], poi siamo tornati a Milano, nel ’41 circa eravamo a Milano, Milano in quel momento lì non hanno bombardato, che mi risulti non hanno mai bombardato nel ’41. Poi siamo stati per un pezzo del ’42 ancora a Milano, poi hanno incominciato dei bombardamenti un po’, po’ pesanti a Milano e allora siamo tornati a Santa Margherita. A Santa Margherita ci siamo andati all’inizio del ’43 [unclear] [laughs] e ce l’avevo scritto anche [unclear] non mi ricordo più. In ogni caso, [unclear], in ogni caso Santa Margherita nel ’43 ormai non c’erano ancora le, nel ’43 c’è stato poi l’armistizio, cosiddetto armistizio e guerra contro i tedeschi che è stato un casino perché lì hanno fatto la più grande vaccata che potesse essere fatta, sia dalla parte degli inglesi che dalla parte nostra perché gli inglesi hanno detto, molto prima di quello che doveva essere detto, che l’Italia era passata completamente all’Inghilterra e quindi tutti i soldati, tutta la gente, nessuno aveva ricevuto ordini specifici che bisognava sparare ai tedeschi, bisognava scappare, e i tedeschi hanno avuto piazza libera praticamente. E difatti tieni conto che ci hanno affondato la corazzata Roma, che era stata, era una corazzata che era una cosa fatta bene perché le navi erano fatte bene, non sono mai state usate perché l’Italia [unclear] [laughs] e la corazzata Roma gli sono arrivati i tedeschi sopra, loro non sapevano neanche se dovevano, se potevano sparare ai tedeschi o no, non si, non avevano neanche i [unclear], perché se avessero avuto il sentore di una cosa del genere, avessero cominciato a sparargli ai tedeschi coi mezzi che aveva già la corazzata Roma, non so se arrivavano a tirargli giù la bomba. E i tedeschi staccano prima la bomba col tele, comandata via cavo e guidata da un osservatore, difatti hanno tirato, praticamente non ha fatto [unclear], hanno fatto quasi così, [laughs] ed è entrata dentro in un camino della nave, che è la parte più delicata e hanno fatto un disastro perché pare che ci fosse la termite chissàdio che cosa era, l’ha tagliato in due [unclear].
ZG: Quando chiedevo prima a Milano, in che quartiere vivevate?
TS: In?
ZG: Che quartiere vivevate a Milano?
TS: Abbastanza vicino, qua, Via Etna, Via [laughs], Via Andrea Verga 4 che sarà cento metri, [unclear] duecento metri da qua insomma. [unclear] Via Andrea Verga 4 che è una strada che dopo ha avuto un, poco dopo durante la guerra ci avevano bruciato vicino a casa nostra [unclear], davanti a casa nostra due case, un cantiere di legno, roba del genere, che vendeva legni eccetera eccetera, e poi subito di fianco alla casa o quasi c’era la, una fabbrica che non mi ricordo più il nome, mi è scappato il nome, quello non c’è niente da fare, una fabbrica grossa che è stata incendiata completamente, altre case che sono state incendiate con, perché nessuno aveva fatto la fesseria, ha avuto l’idea di mio padre, di mettere la sabbia sul. Se tanti a Milano hanno messo per ordine tutti [unclear] così, gli inglesi sarebbero rimasti con le braghe di tela. Che sono rimasti ancora con le braghe di tela perché i tedeschi, gli inglesi speravano, bombardando Milano, le ultime bombardamenti gravi in, quelli di agosto e di coso del ’40, ah beh buonanotte, ’41, ’42, nel ’42, nel ’42 [laughs]. Questi bombardamenti qui che avevano fatto ultimi, dunque poi ce n’era uno che era stato fatto in agosto del ’43, il ’43 che quindi c’era già l’accordo tra italiani e inglesi. Perché sono venuti a bombardarci Milano? Ecco, questo perché gli inglesi c’avevano, insomma ce l’avevano su, perché è impossibile che loro sapessero che c’era l’armistizio in atto perché si sa che avevano mandato della gente italiana a parlare a Lisbona, o roba del genere, in Portogallo con inglesi per l’accordo di coso, si sapeva già che c’era già, perché hanno fatto un bombardamento di quel tipo lì che ha massacrato veramente Milano, sono stati più di quattrocento morti e passa eh. Ecco, gli inglesi pensavano di creare una nuova Dresda, a destra gli inglesi quando hanno bombardato coso, o gli americani, non lo so chi l’aveva fatto, avevano bombardato Dresda la quale ormai era costruita tutta in legno, quasi perché era una, un monumento nazionale. Aveva case ancora, in stile, in legno eccetera eccetera quindi quando gli sono arrivati questi qui poi è partita. Poi c’è stato vento eccetera eccetera, morale della favola hanno fatto il vortice di fuoco su a est, è riuscita a bruciate tutta Dresda. Un macello pazzesco, gente che moriva nel fosforo, lasciamo perdere [laughs]. Non tocca l’Italia in questo momento. Ma speravano di fare così anche a Milano. Milano s’è trovato el matun, scusa il termine, milanese, a Milano si è trovato il mattone e sì, e peccato che c’era dentro del legno. Tu vedevi le case di Milano intorno, vedevi le case ancora in piedi eccetera eccetera, guardavi dentro, vuoto completo [laughs].
ZG: E la scuola invece dove l’ha fatta?
TS: Ah, scuole, guarda, non, guardando bene dall’inizio della scuola, anzi non dall’inizio della scuola, dall’inizio della guerra in poi non ho mai fatto più di due mesi e mezzo in [unclear] perché [laughs] si passava da una parte all’altra, dall’altra, [laughs] e quindi il perito ma era dopo la guerra, quindi passato un po’ di tempo. E le medie le ho fatte che c’avevo tredici anni e le ho fatte in due tempi perché era nel ’45, una parte l’ho fatta, poi mio padre c’ha mandato, m’ha mandato a fare, trovare una persona fuori Milano e ho fatto da, da diciamo da privatista la terza, la seconda e la terza di coso perché la prima ero finito male perché mi era scoppiata una bomba vicino e mi ha dimezzato. Non si vede ma ci mancano vari pezzi [laughs], più l’occhio di vetro, un altro pezzo che, come si vede, c’è ancora qualche cosina, più schegge eccetera eccetera. Lì c’è stata una scena pazzesca in ospedale quando, sì, quando è successo questo, è successo così. Andiamo a finire chissà dove. Santa Maria Ligure è successo quersto numero qua. Tu tieni conto che a Santa Margherita Ligure c’erano nel porto due avvisi scorta che avevano delle specie di cacciatorpediniere che avevano ancora del petrolio nei serbatoi e di fianco c’era un avviso scorta come lo chiamavano che non era altro che una vecchia, una nave da trasporto armata con un cannoncino e delle mitragliere della Bred, qusto me lo ricordo perché erano mitragliere. Io, sai, allora noi sapevamo tutto, almeno io e mio fratello perché io c’avevo un fratello maggiore che si interessava di queste cose qui e io seguivo [mimics a dog’s panting] da bravo cagnolino dietro, no, e imparavo tutto anch’io. Il fatto è che in quel, quando è arrivato il non so, non mi ricordo più, il casino dell’8 settembre, 8 settembre del ’43, i due cacciabombardieri, caccia, le due navi veloci e armate, molto armate sono riuscite a scappare, l’altra non aveva gasolio per farla andare, e l’hanno affondata, autoaffondata ma aprendo le saracinesche, il terreno lì sono, il fondo di Santa Margherita non è enorme, tra il fondo e la barca ci sarà stato si e no due metri e mezzo, quindi quando questa è affondata, è affondata per due metri e mezzo e si è fermata lì. Dalla barca avevano buttato in mare a pezzi o interi, dei proiettili, c’erano dei proiettili grossi col relativo bossolo, sai che i proiettili c’è l’ogiva, il corpo del proiettile, poi c’è la parte di cartuccia che viene infilata nel cannone che insieme nei cannoni moderni era insieme ai, al proiettile, dentro, questo coso qua si smontava, tra parentesi se uno voleva smontarselo, se lo smontava infilandolo dentro [unclear] tira via [laughs] poi i bambini. Mettiamo le cose in chiaro, i bambini sono sempre [unclear], i bambini avevamo l’accortezza per prendere la bomba, non la bomba, l’esplosivo che c’è dentro, beh fa niente, mi è scappato di testa, lo scritto da qualche parte non me [unclear], la balistite, se tu la prendi all’aperto e l’accendi così, [unclear], non scoppia, ma se ti viene chiusa dentro a un proiettile, il colpo c’è e sì. Ora, ora tieni conto che c’erano questi proiettili buttati a mare. I ragazi prendevano dei secchi, buttavano in fondo, tiravano su, tiravi su un cannone, un cannone pochi, i colpi di cannone, c’erano una decina di colpi di cannone ma c’erano molti proiettili della mitragliera binata della Breda, posso dire anche il tipo, del diametro di venti millimetri, che erano delle cose alte dieci centimetri, un pochino di più forse, sì, sì vabbè, il proiettile era così, si smontava l’ogiva in alto, poi si tirava via la spoletta intermedia, poi con molta attenzione si faceva andare via la capsula di, fulminata di mercurio. [unclear] [laughs]. Scusa, mi viene da ridere quando. Ora, dopodiché c’era la polvere da sparo che era dentro nel proiettile, la tiravi via così, basta, poi montavi l’ogiva sopra, il proiettile era nuovo, solo che era vuoto, non faceva più niente. L’incoveniente è che c’era molta gente e molti giovani che lo facevano. Di solito erano ragazzi di diciassette, diciotto anni. E’ successo a me, a me particolarmente e a un altro amico, Un giorno di febbraio, il 27 febbraio del 1944, quindi un’anno dopo quasi che avevano affondato la nave. Alle dieci uscivamo dalla messa di Sant’Erasmo, ecco, Sant’Erasmo si chiamava, fino a stamattina non mi ricordavo più che si chiamava [laughs], dalla chiesa di Sant’Erasmo, da, di una chiesa che c’è nella parte del porto di Santa Margherita e noi siamo usciti dalla chiesa di Sant’Erasmo, ero io e questo ragazzo qua che era con me, e andiamo avanti pochi metri più in là e c’era un gruppetto di, mi sembra fossero tre, adesso non mi ricordo più bene, che stavano trafficando e questo amico che avevo con me conosceva questi qui e diceva: ‘Vieni a vedere questa roba qua’ [unclear]. Io vado, vedo che cosa c’hanno in mano e io non sapevo, conoscevo già quegli aggeggi, prendevamo in mano anche noi, non è che [laughs], t’ho detto, eravamo da prendere con le molle anche se c’avevo undici anni, e vedo che c’avevano questa roba qui che stavano smontando e avevano già svitato via l’ogiva, la parte di testa del coso. Io ho detto, ho vsito che facevano quel lavoro lì e ho detto al mio amico: ‘Ohè, questi qui vogliono saltare per aria, diam più in là’ e abbiamo cominciato ad allontanarci. Eravamo circa due o tre metri che forse, sì, tre metri, quasi quattro, mi volto così per vedere se c’erano robe che e malauguratamente vedo, proprio verso di me, che avevano già tirato via l’ogiva e stavano trafficando un qualche cosa che era il fulminante di mercurio. Il fulminante di mercurio è molto delicato [laughs] e questi qui hanno sbagliato qualche cosetta. Morale della favola, mentre mi giravo così ho visto, prima il buco nero e poi qualche secondo dopo la vampata, che mi sembrava verde. Che poi ho avuto i nodi col verde per un fracco di tempo [laughs]. E sono molto veloce di riflessi, ancora adesso e ho tirato su le mani per fortuna perché questo dito qui, come vedi, è partito e questo pezzo qua è ricresciuto. Un altro ne ricresceva così, quindi hanno dovuto tagliarla. Quell’altro ricresceva, è bruciarlo fino a quando e questo è uno. Poi c’è questa mano qui che sembra quasi intera, tieni conto che queste due qui servono così a farsi vedere, a rompere le scatole. La cicatrice parte da qua, non mi si vede più quasi perché mi spariscono le cicatrici come vedi. E’ entrata qui e ha portato via tutto un pezzo o quasi. Questo è uno più una quarantina di buchi [laughs]. Il fatto di avere alzato le mani m’ha salvato. Qui ha fatto questo, questo segno qui che però è un buco, molto più ampio della parte del vetro, della plastica, e un pezzo di faccia, compreso un pezzo di mascella. In più c’era questo [unclear] qui, probabilmente era dovuto all fatto della deviazione che questa mano qua frena il colpo, ha spaccato la mano però questo qui se l’è cavata per un pelo, le cicatrici erano nascoste [unclear] quasi, e sembra una ruga [laughs] non succede niente e poi questo qua che si vede. Che l’è minga troppo aposto [laughs], ecco. Naturalmente quando è successo, è successo che quelli che erano lì, poveretti, sì, li hanno portati all’ospedale ma non so se sono arrivati all’ospedale ecco. E il mio amico che era vicino era stato colpito all’arteria femorale della gamba destra e dopo un pochino hanno dovuto operarlo e tirar via la gamba perché era la cancrena, faceva fretta anche. Poi, ora che c’hanno caricato su una carrozza a cavalli, ci hanno portato dal porto all’ospedale che era in cima, su, dove c’è la stazione ferroviaria e sono, un percorso che fatto a piedi sarebbe [unclear], c’ha perso il suo tempo. Il sottoscritto c’aveva l’abitudine di non gridare di prendere le cose così come stavano arrivando, non ho perso conoscenza e non sono svenuto tutto il periodo. L’unica cosa che mi ricordo è che sono entro dentro a un barbiere che c’era di fronte a chiedere asciugamani per gli altri e questo barbiere me lo ricordo ogni volta, adesso è morto poveretto. Ogni volta [unclear] me lo ricordo cioè mi ricordo che sei entrato [unclear] che non sapevo chi ero, questo qui buttava sangue, qui c’era sangue, lì c’era sangue, un occhio era chiuso, l’altro non c’era più, vestito, mia madre diceva che non c’era più niente, era un buco e c’è magari gente piccola anche [unclear] e ho cercato di salire, ho cercato di salire sulla carrozzella senza accorgermi che non c’avevo più mano praticamente, c’avevo due dita che non funzionavano quasi perché sono lese anche loro non è che sia. E c’ha portato all’ospedale, all’ospedale, siccome io non gridavo, gli altri gridavano tutti e c’avevo gli occhi, c’avevo sangue dappertutto eccetera eccetera m’hanno preso sul tavolo di marmo che è quello delle autopsie [laughs] e nessuno ha guardato il sottoscritto che per fortuna sua, per qualche misteriosa ragione o perché sono, sapevo, avevo studiato qualche cosa di medicina, medicina no, di infermeria, e tenevo una mano dentro l’altra per fermare il sangue. E m’hanno messo su questo marmo, messo su questo marmo e poi nessuno, gli altri gridavano tutti quindi dovevo, dottori erano quelli che erano, gli infermieri anche, era un’ospedale piccolo, non era un’ospedale grande come quello di Santa Margherita e io [unclear] fermo, tranquillo, non dicevo niente e c’avevo gli occhi perché figurati questo qui col taglio qua non vedevo niente anche se ne avessi avuto voglia poi faceva male, questo qui non c’era più praticamente. Morale della favola a un certo punto passa un frate che conoscevo e era un’ex, un frate di [unclear] che ci faceva vedere di segreto i film che aveva girato in Russia durante la ritirata della decima, della Brigata Giulia e sento che mi fa un’estrema unzione. Io sento la voce del frate, la riconosco subito percheé lo conoscevamo bene, gli ho detto, mi raccomando, dica che sono vivo, [mimics a puzzled expression] scioccato perché credeva anche lui che fossi morto guardate che questo qui è vivo. Due minuti dopo [unclear] tutti i medici ormai vedevanko che andavano a farsi friggere poveretti ed erano lì a cercare di richiudere ste mani. Nel frattempo arriva un giornalista lì è la cosa più divertente che mi fa ridere ancora adesso. Arriva un giornalista e ci fa: ‘Come ti chiami?’ ‘Tito Samorè’ ‘E tua madre’? ‘Ada Coerolo’ ‘E tuo padre?’ Figurati, uno sdraiato in quella maniera lì, conciato così, e già fa [unclear] ancora la mascella, si sente che ne manca un toc, e gli faccio: ‘Se mi chiamo Samorè io’, ma l’ho detto abbastanza forte, no, che si è sentito una risata, un casino in quel momento di gente che lanciava urla, che, si vede che ero salvo, sentire questa era una barzelletta sentire, perché era una barzelletta detta da uno che sembrava morto due minuti prima [laughs]. Mi ricordo che c’è stata una risata fortissima proprio, questa me la ricorderò sempre, basta scusa [laughs] se ho tirato fuori delle storie [laughs]. Ecco, questa è stata una delle cose. E poi, vabbè, poi siamo tornati a Milano, giusto in tempo per gli ultimi bombardamenti [laughs], per gli ultimi bombardamenti e ci facevamo a piedi da Milano a Magenta e dormivamo nel [laughs], nella piramide che c’è a Magenta, nel, non so se c’è ancora, nella specie di piramide del cimitero di Magenta, della guerra di Magenta, della guerra del 1800, 1600, no, 1700, dio, vabbè [laughs] e c’era questo bello libero, si poteva dormire, era un po’ [unclear] di gente, c’era molta gente e c’era, cioè, si faceva a piedi per andare via dai bombardamenti, perché non trovavi nessun mezzo che ti portava in giro, non ce n’eran più [laughs]. Poi vabbè, vai avanti pure tu con le domande perché qui fino adesso ho cicerato io [laughs].
ZG: Perché da Milano dovevate andare a Magenta? Perché, non andavate nei rifugi?
TS: Ma perché, tenevamo Milano lontano [laughs], avevamo paura che tornassero di nuovo a farne degli altri bombardamenti e di fatti gli han fatti, dei bombardamenti successivi, a meno [unclear] [laughs].
ZG: Quindi a lei non è mai capitato di andare nei rifugi?
TS: Come?
ZG: Non è mai capitato di andare nei rifugi?
TS: Non parliamo di quei rifugi lì guarda. A Milano di rifugi come si deve c’erano solo quelli delle aziende che costruivano proiettili, bombe, altre robe del genere, che erano fatto a piramide così, no, in cemento armato e erano blindati sotto con dei corridoi sotto, fatti bene. Difatti quelli che erano riusciti a andare nei, diciamo tipo in quei rifugi lì andavano bene. Ma i rifugi delle case erano nient’altro che delle cantine con dei cosi di, di legno per irrobustirle ma basta. [unclear] molta gente a Milano è morta in cantina, in rifugio. Sinceramente guardando bene i rifugi delle case come quelli lì di Via Verga dove eravamo è del 1900, ma certi rifugi, che poi abbiamo visto dopo, anni dopo [unclear], anni dopo finita la guerra, che andavo in giro con mio padre a vedere Milano come l’era e c’erano dei pezzi di romani ancora. Anzi molte rovine romane sono saltate fuori [unclear]. A Sant’Ambrogio che era stato bombardato lateralmente a sinistra dove c’è la cosa della, quel monumento ai caduti, no, era stato bombardato da quella parte lì ed era interessante perché tutte le arcate che c’erano di cose ed erano scoperte dai bombardamenti erano [unclear] da anforette e [unclear] per fare l’arcata. Ed erano così. E non so come nessuno la sapeva [laughs].
ZG: Quindi lei, lei personalmente non è mai scappato in rifugio quindi?
TS: Come?
ZG: Lei personalmente non è mai scappato in rifugio durante un bombardamento.
TS: Simao andati una volta in rifugi quando eravamo ancora nei primi tempi ma a vedere così com’era [unclear] i capelli dritti insomma. E poi avevamo preso un’abitudine tale ai bombardamenti, agli allarmi che c’era un termine, c’era un metodo tedesco che lo diceva prima in tedesco e poi in italiano. Era: ‘Achtung! Achtung! Achtung! [unclear]’ eccetera eccetera, ossia voleva dire: ‘Attenzione! Attenzione! Attenzione! No, avvicinamento [unclear] nel quadrante quattro, cinque, come se fosse un tiro a segno e [unclear] man mano che si avvicinava dicevano tanti, pochi, niente, o uno, o due, o tre che circolano eccetera eccetera. Noi andavamo, io e mio fratello a mangiare alla mensa comunale di Piazza Diaz dove facevano bene da mangiare, quel periodo lì una cosa eccezionale trovare da mangiare era e mio padre ci mandava là a mangiare. Eravamo cinque fratelli quindi [laughs]. Noi che eravamo pià grandi eravamo andati fuori e noi partivamo da questo principio qui bisognava fare la fila. Allora quando cominciava l’allarme, ‘attenzione! Attenzione! Achtung! Achtung! Attenzione! Attenzione! [unclear] la gente scappava via veloce e noi andavamo avanti [laughs] era una cosa da lavativi [laughs] e poi nota bene che i, gli unici due o tre che c’erano a Milano di rifugi antiaerei erano la prima ante, come si chiama, la metropolitana, no, che doveva essere costruita e avevano già fatto un pezzo da Piazza San Fedele, quella dietro al comune, al Duomo. E lì c’era una galleria, [unclear] perché c’era il salone che poi hanno fatto diventare il salone del mobile, dopo, e allora c’era quella lì [laughs] ed era una grossa, ed era abbastanza fonda, quindi c’aveva una certa profondità, cemento di sopra, insomma, e ma se no di, di rifugi antiaerei proprio no, maluccio [laughs]. Ma pensa che [unclear] città morta gente che era morta perché è rimasta nel. C’erano nei rifugi poco dopo la guerra, nelle case bruciate, c’era uscita rifugio e la freccia, o entrata rifugio e c’era la freccia, perché era obbligatorio mettere le freccie sul, oltre i cartelli che diceva, casa distrutta da bombardieri anglo-assassìni, anglo-assàssini una volta era, poi i teschi che erano assàssini anche loro, hanno detto: ‘No, no, nein, non bisogna mettere assàssini, nein’ [makes a noise] allora assassìni, anglo-assassìni [laughs]. Poi è stato cancellato, quando c’è stata la liberazione hanno cancellato ma ogni tanto salta fuori [laughs].
ZG: Si ricorda invece qualcosa dell’occupazione nazista? Si ricorda le truppe tedesche a Milano?
TS: Ah, le truppe tedesche a Milano, effettivamente facevano il lavoro che dovevano fare a Milano, non andavano tanto d’accordo con la popolazione, questo non andava abbastanza bene perché fino a quando c’è stato la Repubblica Sociale c’era da mangiare a Milano. Il periodo più critico è stato dopo la Repubblica, che non c’era da mangiare. Non c’era da mangiare, venivano quelli fuori dalle campagne a portare la roba se arrivavano, e se c’avevi i soldi perchè costavano cari. Questo mi ricordo perché avevamo la carta, la tessera annonaria che ognuno di noi aveva e che era pane, carne eccetera eccetera. Se tu pensi che io che ero considerato un invalido di guerra, avevo diritto a una bistecca di carne ottima ed era controllata tra parentesi e te la dovevano dare buona di un etto al giorno, al giorno [emphasises], quella bistecca da un etto al giorno serviva a cinque persone [laughs]. Il pane era verde, bellissimo, pane verde, facevi così [makes a whistling noise] [laughs] e poi era, [laughs] [blows his nose]
ZG: Senta invece, si ricorda di quando la guerra è finita?
TS: Comes?
ZG: Si ricorda di quando la guerra è finita?
TS: Sì, 25 aprile, Dunque, lì, 25 aprile, niente, a Milano si sono sparati poco ma ci è andata bene che non hanno fatto quello che voleva fare Mussolini, a fare Milano come. Sparacchiavano nelle strade e ammazzavano [unclear], vabbè, normale nella storia. Anche perché pare che Schuster, l’arcivescovo di Milano di allora fosse riuscito ad avere un accordo con i tedeschi che loro se ne potevano andfare fuori dai piedi senza [unclear] resistenza eccetera e gli altri li lasciavano andare e si infatti. Peccato che abbiano fucilato della gente che ne potevano fare a meno di fucilarle, che potevano e quello non è stato un piacere che hanno fatto.
ZG: Senta.
TS: Quando scendevi dalla stazione che mettevano il timbro sul, quando uscivi dalla stazione al buio, alla sera, ti mettevano [makes a noise] il timbro sulla mano che era l’autorizzazione ad andare in giro di notte. [laughs] Non so se, se c’è gente che si ricorda quell’episodio lì. E ti mettevano il timbro, o sulla mano o sul polso, adesso non mi ricordo bene, non so se era sopra, boh [laughs]. E quello me lo ricordo, il fatto che a una certa ora non c’erano mezzi, [unclear] i tram erano bruciati durante, mi ricordo a fine della guerra c’era la fila di tram bruciati e soltanto la carcassa dei tram che ci sono ancora adesso in circolazione del ’35, sono quelli normali che vedi in giro sono quelli del ’35, gli altri moderni è un altro discorso, ma quelli lì erano ricostruiti da quelli che erano bruciati e c’erano, c’era tutta la fila lungo, per andare in Via Domodossola lungo la fiera campionaria che era stata bombardata anche lei che era tutta spazzolata e unclear], Milano [unclear] c’erano le bombe [laughs].
ZG: Come mai le era capitato di dover tornare la sera?
TS: Come?
ZG: Come mai le era capitato di arrivare in stazione la sera?
TS: Perché i treni arrivavano quando, quando c’erano se li trovavi [luahgs[. Mi ricordo che immediatamente dopo la guerra, mio padre ci aveva mandato sempre mio fratello e me [laughs], ci aveva mandato da Milano a Santa Margherita Ligure, era subito finito, era pochi giorni dopo la liberazione e col treno bisognava fare il treno spezzonato perché facevi Milano-Pavia, Pavia scendevi, attraversavi il Ticino, col traghetto [mimics the sound of the ferry’s motor] al Ticino, poi dal Ticino salivi, treno, un pezzettino di treno che c’era rimasto tra il Ticino e il Po, al Po scendevi attraversavi [unclear] [laughs], salivi sopra, facevi, a [unclear] scendevi, avanti così. E poi arrivati a Genova dovevi [laughs], dovevi prendere il tram a Sampierdarena, il tram che erano delle baracche pazzesche e arrivavi fino a Nervi. A nervi scendevi, passavi a Spiaggia, passavi sopra il muro anti, antisbarco fatto dai tedeschi che era tutto [unclear] e salivi su delle chiatte e con le chiatte arrivaci a Camogli. Camogli scendevi, andavi su a Ferrovia, salivi sui carrelli spinti a mano, tu con altre persone c’erano dei carrelli, [unclear] si mettevan dietro, in salita, nella salita della ferrovia poi fino in fondo, fino a Santa Margherita si scendeva [makes a rattling noise] [laughs] ci voleva una giornata circa più o meno. O se perdevi il treno trovavi, se avevi fortuna trovavi alla stazione dell’autostrada trovavi la polizia, la polizia americana che fermava i camion e chiedeva: ‘Dove vai?’, non so ‘A Pavia’, allora c’è qualcuno che va verso Milano [unclear] allora andate su questo qui. Allora siamo andati a finire su un camion carico di cesti di pesce, in maggio inoltrato sul sole su questo camion [unclear], che poi quando si passava nelle gallerie, bisognava stare sdraiati appicicati nel pesce [laughs], era una cosa [laughs], quando ci penso ci rido sopra perché è stata, erano delle cose pazzesche. Raccontate sembrano [unclear] balle [laughs].
ZG: Senta, io le farei giusto le ultime due domande.
TS: Dimmi tutto perché se non me le fai tu le domande [laughs]
ZG: No, chiaro. All’epoca cosa pensava di chi bombardava?
TS: Di?
ZG: Di chi bombardava lei cosa pensava?
TS: Ah, figli di puttana [laughs], [unclear] diceva perché non stava bene in casa nostra [laughs], ma se avessimo preso, difatti a Milano qualche d’uno che era stato abbattuto e coso, sono stati quelli della X MAS o coso che hanno salvato perché la gente. Quando sono arrivati dopo la liberazione, le prime truppe che sono arrivate non hanno mandato gli inglesi, hann mandato gli americani che l’odio che c’era non era più per gli americani, era per gli inglesi, e ti assicuro che per un periodo di tempo l’Inghilterra, con l’Inghilterra non andavamo molto d’accordo. Mi spiace dirlo se questo qui è per gli inglesi ma si ritengano molto, molto poco amati dagli italiani in quel momento lì. Molto, molto poco [laughs].
ZG: Senta, senta invece adesso, ripensandoci, cosa pensa?
TS: Dico, se hanno voluto andare, vogliono fare, l’Inghilterra a isolottolo perso, andate, andate. Cercate di allontanarvi ancora di più dall’Euriopa possibilmente ecco [laughs].
FS: Posso ricordare a mio papà un evento che non ha raccontato?
ZG: Sì, certo.
TS: Che cosa?
FS: Di tutte le cose che hai raccontato, una cosa che non abbiamo detto a Zeno ma che mi ricordi spesso
TS: Dimmi.
FS: E’ quando mitragliavano i tram.
TS: Guarda, quattro volte mi sono trovato con un aereo che mitragliava il tram, il trenino per andare da Milano a Bergamo, che hanno bombardato, l’hann mitragliato e bombardato anche un pochettino durante il viaggio interno nel parco di Monzo. E noi eravamo con mio fratello, giravamo intorno agli alberi [laughs] mentre quelli venivano, no, vedevamo aerei che venivano per mitragliare e noi giravamo dietro l’albero [laughs] . Poi tanti, mitragliavano tanti tram con la gente dentro, e difatti parecchi morti li hann fatti anche lì e coi camion. Coi camion c’era uno sempre sdraiato sul tetto del camion che guardava se c’era qualche aereo che veniva a mitragliare. Perché Milano era accerchiato, accerchiata dall’insieme di coso. Non erano proprio accerchiati, era che fatto un giro di caccia eccetera eccetera che sparavano contro chiunque andasse. Un carro a cavalli, tiravano [mimics the noise of a machine gun]. Bene visti per così io, non so, tramite il 24 che andava a Baggio, qua, era all’altezza circa dell’Ospedale Militare Baggio e da una parte c’è l’ex antico Forlanini dove c’era ancora l’hangar per il dirigibile Italia [unclear] [laughs]. E mi ricordo quella volta che col 24 l’autista si è accorto che stava arrivando quell’aereo che [unclear], ha fermato il tram, ha aperto le portiere e chi era più vicino alle portiere si buttava come me, buttato [makes a noise] giù dalla scarpata che c’era di là, dentro una roggia, una roggia come diciamo a Milano, canale [unclear], e altri, molti altri che sono morti. E ma quello è stato uno dei tanti, quando c’ero io [laughs] [unclear].
ZG: Direi che possiamo concludere. Grazie mille, signor Tito.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Tito Samorè
Description
An account of the resource
Tito Samorè recollects wartime memories in Milan, when he was a member of the Balilla youth organisation. Remembers the outbreak of war and its announcement on the radio. Describes the first bombing of Milan in 1940, stressing how the wooden pannelled attics made it easy for the incendiaries to burn the building. Recollects his fathers attempts to avoid skilled workers being deported to Germany and reminisces on various episodes: food shortages, ration cards, shoot-outs in the streets, strafing of tramways. Describes different kinds of shelters and remembers his evacuee life at Santa Margherita Ligure where he witnessed the sinking of a destroyer. Recollects how he was left maimed for rest of the life after a failed attempt to disassemble a gun shell on 27 February 1944.
Creator
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Zeno Gaiaschi
Date
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2018-02-06
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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01:30:54 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Milan
Italy--Santa Margherita Ligure
Italy--Po River Valley
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1944-02-27
1943-09-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Identifier
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ASamoreT180206
PSamoreT1801
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
evacuation
home front
incendiary device
Resistance
shelter
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/412/Memoro Bombe-a-Torino_3.2.mp3
17598219243eabb345b0a467edbdf91d
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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Start of inteview
TL: [part missing in the original file] dopo quello di giorno, il primo bombardamento di giorno che ha avuto Torino. Che ha bombardato la SPA pensa, la SPA, non sai dov’è la SPA.
Unknown interviewer: Via Cristoforo Colombo
TL: Comunque, Via Cristoforo Colombo, tutta sta zona lì [part missing in the original file] la SPA era produzione militare, faceva i camion militari e i carri armati e le autoblinde [part missing in the original file] erano venuti per bombardare la Spa [part missing in the original file] e suona l’allarme, tutti in mezzo alla strada poi abbiamo visto gli aeroplani altissimi ohh, guarda quà, li abbiamo ma c’era una svacca d’aeroplani tutti in forma ma alti qua e noi [part missing in the original file] e prima che ci [unclear] noi scappiamo in cantina. Mica sapevamo che gli aerei lanciano là per arrivar qua le bombe [part missing in the original file] noi eravamo la a contare gli aerei han cominciato a buttar giù le bombe, porca mastella! Eravamo lì pacifici, oh ma ciccia. [part missing in the original file] e bim e boom scappiamo sotto il portone nella cantina mentre eravamo lì è arrivato mezzo cavallo nel cortile, qualche bomba non so dove, [makes a crashing sound] mezzo cavallo, scappo in crota. Cioè c’era il papà di un mio amico, ha preso il mio amico sotto un braccio e io così, c’ere, saremo stati come si dice incagliati come se disi in italiano giù per le scale in cantina. Poi finite l’allarme siamo usciti, un macello. Via Cristo, si vede che l’aereo l’ha beccata giusta, in Via Cristoforo Colombo c’era una casa sì, una casa no, una casa sì, una casa no bombardata [makes a repetitive booming noise] si vede che l’ha presa giusta, cioè ha bombardato a tappeto. [part missing in the original file] da Corso Vinzaglio diciamo, via Cristoforo, fino quasi a Corso Raconigi, a tappeto [makes a droning noise] ha sganciato a tappeto, per bombardare [unclear] oh Dio mio. [part missing in the original file] finito di bombardare, siamo usciti no, quello nel mezzo fa, oh quel mezzo cavallo che c’avete lì nel cortile il papà del mio amico che aveva una fabbrica di burro lì, faceva burro, l’ha preso e l’ha messo nella cella frigorifera eh [whistles] e poi mangia cavallo [part missing in the original file]. Uscendo così eravamo lì in via Martignano, oh tutte le case bombardate, una mentre scappava nel portone, c’erano, una chiamava Villa Genera non so perché vista come scoppiasse ma le case lì di fronte [makes a bombing noise] è lì che il papà m’ha preso e sbattuto giù. Siamo usciti a vedere, oh tutto bombardato. Vediamo la portinaia di Corso Raconigi, angolo via
UI: via Polenzi.
TL: Via Polenzi, no via Martignana. Una signora che viene fuori, faceva ‘la bomba, la bomba’, tutti ma come ‘la bomba’, non capivo più niente, ‘la bomba, la bomba’, ma come ‘la bomba, la bomba’. Andiamo dentro, io e c’era altra gente, e io dietro da ragazzino, oh, in cucina c’era una vasca di bomba d’aereo così ma lunga due o tre metri e si vedeva il cielo, il buco. Ha bucato la casa, cinque o sei piani, tutto per traverso, si vedeva un buco grosso come questa mezza stanza, si vedeva il cielo cinque o sei piani sopra e si era fermata sul pavimento [makes a repeated booming noise] e non è esplosa. Sotto quel pavimento c’era gente in cantina, in rifugio [part missing in the original file] e quella ‘la bomba’, ma una bestia. Allora c’era i macellai avevano quei cestoni grossi sulle biciclette per portar la roba, li copriva appena appena la punta. ‘na bestia grossa così, ma lunga.
La bomba, coma se ciamava, quella là, ‘la bomba, la bomba’, e sotto il pavimento c’era gente in cantina. Se scoppia, la casa crolla e stai là sotto e se fa ancora un buco [part missing in the original file] anche un bestione così ti arriva in testa. E non so dove’era, in cantina e in rifugio. Corso Raconigi angolo Via Martignana, porco boia. [part missing in the original file] di giorno han cercato cioè, se ne fregavano e bombardavano a tappeto però andavano alla SPA, invece di notte andavano un po’ alla cieca, bombardavano.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Tino Luparia
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Tino Luparia (b. 1930) chronicles the first daylight bombing of Turin which was aimed at the SPA industries, then a defence contractor. Describes the effects of a massive unexploded bomb which pierced all floors of a building and stopped immediately before reaching the shelter. Mentions the sight of half a horse carcass, which was immediately taken away and then used as food. Contrasts daytime precision bombing with night bombing, which targets indiscriminately over a large area.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:03:50 audio recording
Language
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ita
Identifier
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Memoro#Bombe-a-Torino_3.html
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Turin
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
License
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Royalty-free permission to publish
animal
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
home front
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1125/11617/ASindallTH170801.1.mp3
f9b061c7d247788b9204765b3f063b26
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sindall, James
James H Sindall
J H Sindall
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Timothy Sindall about his father, Wing Commander James Hepburn Sindall DSO (608158, 37365 Royal Air Force) and a photograph.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Tim Sindall and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Sindall, JH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 1st of August 2017 and I’m in East Horsley, in Surrey with Tim Sindall to talk about his father, James [unclear] Sindall, DSO. And we are going through all the details that Tim has amassed on his father’s life.
TS: Whilst my father James Heaven Sindall was alive, he in common with many others of his time very rarely spoke about his wartime experiences and yet I knew sufficient to respect him greatly for all he had achieved and was awed as to his unquestioned bravery in operations. After Madge, my mother, died at an all too early age, he withdrew into himself and sought solace in adventures at Salcombe for fishing, France, caravanning and Spain, a house he had built for him in an olive groove. He was careful as to those he accepted as friends for he was a handsome man and his neighbours never tired of trying to fix him up with solo female companions. But this was not what he wanted. He always welcomed my family to his house in [unclear] and he loved having us there for holidays, but he refused to install a telephone, so communications of other types relied upon the personal services. Only towards the very end of his life did I discover some tin trunks hidden under the stairs of the house where his sister lived and I didn’t have time to ferret around their contents until the end of the year 2010 when I came across his pilot’s flying logbooks, letters and other documents. These contained such a wealth of information that I simply knew that I had to commit time and energy in compiling his biography, not just for my own satisfaction but also for that of my family who had already begun to ask questions and to encourage my endeavours.
CB: Go.
TS: Chapter one in the biography is entitled flying begins between the years 1933 and ’36. James Heaven Sindall was born at home on the 12th of November 1909 at 41 Clock House Road, Beckenham urban district in the county of Kent to Annie Agnes Sindall and, formerly Heaven and Owen Sindall whose occupation was given as accounts clerk. The birth was registered on the 24th of December 1909 in the district of Bromley. James attended Worcester college Westcliff between 1922 and 1924 and then Eaton High School Southend from 1924 until 1927. One of his sports was boxing and we have a medal that he was awarded for his prowess in the sport. His civilian occupation after leaving school was as a clerk and include working for first, the Anglo International Bank EC between 1929 and 1933, then Novel Libraries Limited in 1934, and thirdly, the Bank of British West Africa between 1934 and ’35, all these appointments I believe to have been in London. But whilst he was working as a clerk, he joined the territorial army, the London regiment, the 14th, the London Scottish, as a private on the 20th of March 1929 and was promoted to Lance Corporal on the 16th of June 1932. He attended training camps annually between 1930 and 1933 but relinquished his appointment in January 1934 and was discharged on the 8th of July that year, quote, having been appointed to a commission in the RAFO and quote, RAFO means Reserve of RAF Officers. Whilst with the territorial army, James’s army number was 6666088. His military history sheet showed that his service was at home i.e. not abroad and that it counted as British, i.e. not India, and that its length was five years, 111 days. Now we move on to 1933, to a paragraph entitled flying training in Essex. The first flying records contained in a civilian pilot’s logbook begin just before the 9th of July 1933, the date of his second flight and show two dual training flights at Gravesend airport, each of twenty minutes. Subsequently, James undertook six further dual training flights, each lasting between fifteen and thirty minutes from Southend Airport in Gypsy Moth Golf Echo Bravo Tango Golf. An entry made on the 26th of June records landed plane ok, obviously with some pride. The last flight made in this phase of training took place in July at whilst still [unclear] includes the comment, take-off and landing solo, which to me seems to imply that captain [unclear] his instructor allowed James to manage the flight. We now move on to 1934, flying training sponsored by the Royal Air Force. The same flying logbook shows that James was at this time living with his parents and sister at Outspan, Nelson Road, Leigh-on-Sea, Essex, a semidetached house that remained the family home until after he died in May 1991. Issue 34072 of the London Gazette, dated the 24th of July 1934, shows James being granted a commission in the Royal Air Force reserve as pilot officer on probation, class 1AA little 2 with effect from the 9th of July 1934. This was the same date when he was authorised to wear the RAFO flying badge. His personal number in the Royal Air Force was 37365. It would appear that James recommenced flying training on Tiger Moths at Hatfield in July ’34 being deemed ready for solo on the 4th of August but actually doing so in Golf Alpha Charlie Delta Echo on the 14th for five minutes. The exercise he performed were 6, 7 and 14 meaning taking off into wind, landing in judging distances and solo, in other words, probably just one, thrilling circuit. This allowed him to enter into the remark column first solo. He flew a solo again on the next couple of days but mostly however after that his instructor Cox took him through turn, spinning, glides and aerobatics, as well as the all-important take offs and landings. The ammunition of course on DH82 aeroplanes run by the De Havilland aircraft company Limited took 56 days to complete. His assessments for airmanship, air pilot, forced landings, cross country flights, and instrument flights were average. The chief instructor commented on the 12th of September, he has definitely improved throughout the course, his flying has been consistent, aerobatics require more practice, he is very keen and should make a sound pilot. 1935, We have Consolidation and the start of service flying training. The pilot’s logbook records that James flew Avro Cadet, Golf Alpha Charlie Tango Bravo three times from Rochford on the 17th of March, James flew with Glava again on the 8th of April from Rochford, diverted to Gravesend owing to rain. Flying training resumed on the 15th of March, when James was back at Hatfield, once again flying Tiger Moths solo. They were doing advanced forced landings, reconnaissance, instrument practice, spinning, loops, aerobatics, cross country and general flying. On the 27th of April, the logbook shows that James flying solo, quote, landed Luton to find direction and quote, five minutes later he was off again, flying under very low cloud back to Hatfield. The course ended on the 1st of May 1935 when ten hours total had been flown. This time his performance was assessed as average on all counts, adding, he is very keen, he displays ability, and with more experience should make a very sound and reliable pilot. Now, between the 8th of June and the 24th of September 1935, it would appear that James undertook several private flights in Avro Cadets flying Moth airplanes, three notable entries in the remarks column of the pilot’s logbook included, flying his first passenger on the 2nd of July a Ms Keithley who is possibly associated with a film crew and she joined him on seven other occasions in dispersed with film job, going to location, line take off etcetera for Wells film Things to Come. The second item was flying Madge her first flight. That was F O Madge Birchall who became my mother. This a twenty-minute flight made on the 6th of July must have been a wonderful moment, for three years later James and Madge were married and the third point was flying O Sindall, that’s Owen, James’s father to London and back on the 9th of July, almost certainly the first time he had ever flown. By the end of September, James has amassed forty hours and forty minutes dual time and forty two hours and forty-five minutes solo and the London Gazette dated the 10th of September ’35 shows James being confirmed in the rank of pilot officer on probation in the RAF reserve and then, in 1935, on the 22nd of October, the London Gazette shows James relinquishing his commission in the RAFO on appointment to a short service commission with the RAF to take effect from the 7th of October. His first posting was to the RAF depot at Uxbridge and then to number 6 Flying Training School at Netheravon. The first page of James’s logbook here shows that James’s RAF flying training proper began at number 6 Flying Training School Netheravon and entry at Reading records I certify that I understand the petrol system and that I know the action in the event of fire in the air, also the use of breaks on the Hawker Hart. His first instructional flight in a Tudor includes spinning and the second slow rolls and loops. His third flight was the CFO eyes test which could have been to ascertain or confirm that James had the potential to benefit from further instruction.
CB: Right.
TS: James was clearly very impressed with the Hart and wrote to his mother on the 2nd of November 1935, have been flying Harts, look, something like this, enclosed a picture of a Hart, not a good one, I intended to draw it but I could not do it justice so here’s a picture of a Demon, same makers and practically the same, the only difference being that the exhaust comes out under the lower wing as I have [unclear].
CB: Just doing that again.
TS: James was clearly very impressed with the Hart and wrote to his mother on the 2nd of November 1935, have been flying Harts, look, something like this, I intended to draw it but I could not do it justice so here’s the picture of a Demon, same makers and practically the same, the only difference being that the exhaust comes out under the lower wing as I have [unclear] and I fly it from the front office and not from the back. After crawling around at 70mph in the Moths at home, you can imagine the thrill of cruising at 130 and at full throttle speed of 160 to 170mph. Coming out of a spin, a Hart is pointing vertically downward and everything screams, wires, struts and me until she comes out. I have not had the time to look at the speed indicator, but it must register something horrid. The sticks tooks up getting used to, not like the usual straight at moving in all directions from the floor, sideways and forwards but hinged just above the lease for sideways movement and both together for fore and after. The top is a ring, a spade grip and the two little leavers are thumb leavers to push to operate the forward guns which fire through the propeller. It is great to hurtle around the sky so fast. As a preface to this letter, James had written, no doubt to calm his mother’s fears, always remember that with machines there is more safety the faster one goes. James’s flying training, which included aerobatics, instrument and lower flying, cross country and flair path exercises on Tutors, Harts and Audax aircraft continued until February 1936. He recorded that on New Year’s Day 1936, whilst flying solo in Audax K4393, he carried out a forced landing at Portham being flown back as passenger to Netheravon in a Tutor nineteen minutes later. He also recorded that on the course of a solo flight made in a Hart, he carried out loops, spins and stall turns, notwithstanding that spinning had not been part of the planned exercise. On completion of his RAF training, James’s proficiency as a pilot on type and his instrument flying assessment were both recorded as average with a note, that disregards the standard entry any special [unclear] in flying which must be watched, must look after his engine. No other outstanding faults. These entries were dated the 16th of February 1936 and he was then qualified for certificate B under King’s regulations at air staff instructions. On the 6th of March James was posted to number 64 Fighter Squadron stationed in the Middle East. Chapter 2, fighter aeroplane to the Middle East and testing parachutes 1936 to 1939. First of all, a fighter squadron in Egypt. On the 6th of March 1936, James was posted to number 64 Fighter Squadron that was stationed in the Middle East. The RAF history records that number 64 had reformed in Heliopolis on the 1st of March although for political reasons it had been announced as having reformed at Henlow so as not to disclose its true location. The squadron was commanded by squadron leader Patrick John [unclear] having been established by authority. Now the RAF Form 540 which is the operations record book states that the original intention had been to form the squadron under peacetime conditions as part of the RAF expansion scheme. It was to form in Egypt to relieve congestion at home and by taking advantage of the good flying weather in this country to become fully trained as quickly as possible. Its Demons, fitted with derated Rolls Royce Kestrel V engines had already been set out to Egypt where they formed D flights in number 6 Bomber and 208 Army Cooperation squadrons and these were transferred during March to number 64 Squadron. The next entry in James’s flying logbook shows that he’d been transferred to number 208 Army Cooperation Squadron being based at Heliopolis. The unit was seemed to have being carried up type and role version at area familiarisation training. On the 19th of March, he was given a 35-minute checkout in an Audax after which he was sent off solo for general flying, navigation, formation and landing practices. A separate entry dated the 6th of April 1936 reads authorised to wear the flying badge with effect from the 20th of February 1936. He signed this as pilot officer and it was countersigned by a flight lieutenant, O C A flight 64 Squadron. On the following page of the logbook the heading number 64 fighter squadron Egypt appears. The first flight which was also from Heliopolis was made solo with balance to assimilate the way to a passenger in a Hawk Demon K4516 that lasted for thirty minutes. Two days later James flew again for landing practice, this time with aircraftsmen turrets on board. On the 9th of April, the squadron moved to Ismailia, James being a passenger in a Victoria 6. It had been the original intention to move to Mersa Matruh east but, due to severe engine troubles, which all squadrons operating in the western desert had been experiencing, it was decided to keep number 64 Squadron at a less dusty aerodrome, a turret should be required for the actual operations. The squadron consisted of three flying flights of four aeroplanes with no reserves. Its strength was thirteen officers and 153 other ranks. With the Abyssinian crisis still on, the squadrons duties were to carry out attacks on enemy airfields and act as cover for bombers being refuelled at advanced landing grounds. However, until required to commence these operations, the squadron carried out on normal training whilst being kept at 72 hours readiness to move to Sidi Barrani whence operational sorties would be flown. On the 15th, James was airborne again for a local familiarisation flight and this was followed by practice force landing, aerobatics, formation and air to ground firing with the front guns. On the 27th of April, he flew to and landed at Suez at Little Bitter Lake airfields. On the 28th and 29th he recorded battle climbs, five thousand feet in four minutes, ten thousand in seven and sixteen thousand feet in eleven and then he recorded on another flight, five thousand feet in five minutes, ten thousand in ten and sixteen thousand in fifteen. On the 19th of May, James was regraded from acting pilot officer on probation to pilot officer on probation. May was spent practicing more air to ground firing by the front guns and those fired by an air gunner, formation flying, aerobatics, air to air firing and on the 16th he undertook a twenty minute test flight in a Vickers Valentia with sergeant Higgins. In June 1936 this training continued with visits to Mersa Matruh, Sidi Barrani, Solum and Amira. He flew to [unclear] on the 6th of June to enable the engine of the Valentia to be changed of, I think it must be a Hart which had forced landed there. Also on the 18th he flew in a Gordon 2617 for two hours on a target train mission to facilitate air to air gunnery. In July a number of flights were made to test engine air filters fitted to Demons and James carried out some flair path landings and the times to height that I recorded just now were probably associated with these air filter engine performance trials. Number 64 Fighter Squadron returned to the UK in August 1936 to form part of the fighter defences of London. James’s logbook showed no flying during the months of August and September. By the time he’d left Egypt, he had amassed sixty-five hours and thirty-five minutes solo flying on Demons. On the 22nd of October, James flew in English skies once again, in Bristol Bulldog 1961 Martlesham Heath checking up on landmarks. His next flight on the 10th of November included formatting with a flying boat over Felixstowe. Thereafter, his flights included formation landings, circuits and bumps, cloud flying, testing RT, that’s the radio telephone and aerobatics. On the 3rd of December he flew Demon K4509 over [unclear] and Bexley on a tactical exercise radar on London fog and smoke and this is the first time he’s recorded undertaking flying, probably in association with Bentley Priory, beginning to trial the air defence of Great Britain, the radar chain. On the 8th of December 1936, James was confirmed in the rank of pilot officer with effect from the 7th of October 1936.
CB: Now back in Egypt. No, ok.
TS: We’re not, we’re back in the UK. We’ve come back to the UK.
CB: OK, that’s fine. Keep going.
TS: 1936, the parachute test flight. January 1937 saw James involved in testing camera guidance and in rearming and refuelling exercises, followed by quick getaways and battle climbs. There were more raids on London exercises. On the 27th of January 1937, James flew for the last time with his squadron, his logbook recording his proficiency as a pilot on Demons as average. James moved to the home aircraft depot at Henlow where he flew again on the 9th of February in a Tiger Moth on a refresher test. He then began a series of flights as a second pilot on the tail of the Vickers Victoria a Virginia aircraft drop testing parachutes, eight on each flight attached to dummies. He also made eight solo flights in a Hawker Hind, on one of which he, quote, landed to retrieve map near Bournemouth, and quote, after having encountered bad visibility, mist and rain. In March he carried out sundry flying tasks in a Tiger Moth, Prefect and Hind. These tasks included map reading tests for sergeant pilots, air sickness tests for aircraftsmen, photography and high-speed parachute dropping. Typical entries read, from ten thousand foot, 265mph, twelve thousand feet, 295mph, pull out four to six hundred feet, engine can’t take it at two thousand eight hundred revs in the dive, cutting out, boost minus two. On the 17th and 22nd James records, general flying over flooded areas and on the 23rd, search for Green Tiger Moth Duchess of Bedford, lost since previous evening. A note at the foot of this page records, struts and portion of aircrew recovered from the Wash confirms from the Duchess of Bedford’s machine. In April, James flew to Sealand, recording to [unclear] a new aircraft, with regard to an Audax that he’d got, with a hundred and fifty LSI airspeed indicator, with two thousand two hundred and fifty revs cruising, then he returned to Henlow in the, the Blackburn after which he recorded flying Blackburn hard labour all the time. After flying Moth 1889 on air experience for parachute pull off, he made two more flights in the Fairey to Cardington and back. At the end of the month, James signed off the months flying totals for the first time as officer commanding parachute test flight home aircraft depot Henlow. May began with a short flight in a Fairey 3F, followed that afternoon by an entry in red ink, live parachute pull off from port wing, from Virginia K2329 and this excitement was repeated on the 28th. Later in life, my father elaborated on the technique used to test parachutes. The Virginia would take off with one parachuter standing on the outer part of the lower wing on each side, facing [unclear] and grasping the strap with both arms and legs. On approaching the top [unclear], in response to a signal given by one of the crew, both parachuters would turn to face forward and await a further signal whereupon each would then deploy the parachute, if the parachute deployed as expected, the increase force would pull the parachutist away from the strut and he would ascend to a normal landing. If the parachute didn’t open, then the parachuters would turn around again to face [unclear] and remain there until the aircraft had landed. It was important I was told that when facing forward the parachuter should not intertwine his fingers when deploying his parachute, otherwise the snatch force created when it opened would dislocate his digits. Empire Air Day, held on the 29th, was the highlight of the month. Before this, James was closely involved in rehearsals. He flew a second pilot in a Virginia that was used over Long Church as a target for attacks by three Gladiators. On the following day, which is 21st, he flew photographers from the local rag, before collecting fireworks for the Empire Air Day from Northolt. There were further rehearsals after that and on the 29th he flew Fury in a display handicap race, coming close forth, followed by a flight in which the Virginia took on the role of enemy aircraft, shot down by 54 Squadron. August flying began with Queen Bee Moth K, ferrying this aircraft to Sealand for shipment. Now, the Queen Bee was a modification of the highly successful and reliable DH-82A Tiger Moth. The main differences being that the Queen Bee had an entirely wooden fuselage and a fuel tank five gallons larger than the Tiger Moth. Queen Bees were first produced in 1935, in response to an Air Ministry request for inexpensive, expendable radio-controlled target drone for anti-aircraft gunnery practice. The front cockpit was fitted with conventional controls for a test or ferry pilot, while the rear carried the radio control receiver and pneumatically operated servers for the flying controls. Queen Bees were said to have been the first, full sized aircraft originally designed to fly unmanned and under radio control. September 1935 involved miscellaneous air tests. On the 10th, James flew to Netheravon in Fairey 2F for live and dummy drops in the making of MGM’s film Shadow of the wind. He [unclear] often doing flight with flight sergeant Smith and a gentleman called De Grue on board, James records live drop, use reserve parachute, just made it, later that day the latter named person was on board for another live drop, as was Naomi Karen Maxwell, both went off, quote, ok, with dummy unopened, unquote. On the following day, dummy drops took place through clouds but had limited success with one dummy landing a mile and a half off and another, quote, drifted fifty miles, unquote. Dummy drops were made from a Hind for the bystander magazine on the 17th, followed by a landing at Bassingbourn due to a thunderstorm. On the 18th, James was once again helping MGM make their film with Ms Maxwell and De Grue, both making live free drops. December 1937 offered very little in the way of flying due to a very bad visibility, rain and cloud. On the 3rd, James recalled his height as fifty feet, whilst very low flying. On the 8th, the remarks include damn cold, ice and snow on the ground, followed by b…. cold. On the 11th, the entry reads, fall after frost, low cloud, circuits and bumps, and on the 13th, hit three peewits taking off. On the 24th, conditions had hardly improved, thickish mist and [unclear] almost like flying in an iceberg. The last entries in this logbook relate to the 17th and 18th of the month, the remarks are regarding a flight from, Henlow to Sealand flowing Queen Bee over the top of clouds, came out in the middle of Wales. Then on the 18th, refuelled, land in Penrhos, hit post, damaged port [unclear], returned to Henlow by a train. We do note also that in 1937 the landing was made near Bournemouth to retrieve the map and near Aberystwyth due to a petrol shortage. All in all, the records by now showed an adventurous flying career in the RAF. James was promoted to flying officer on the 30th of December 1937. 1938, James was broadening his experience. He continued to fly from the home aircraft depot at Uxbridge as officer commanding the parachute test flight, flying the Prefect, Fairey, Queen Bee, Moth, Tutor, Magister, Hind and Virginia. In March, he carried out a number of high-speed runs in the Hind, recording variously 240, 250, 280 and finally 290mph. On the 26th of March, he took this aeroplane up to twenty-four thousand feet, recording times and boost pressures against altitudes as he did so. The maximum altitude he reached in forty minutes and forty seconds. April ‘38 seems to have required a mixture of flying that included passenger transfer flights, balloon chasing, cloud flying, circuits and bumps. On return to Henlow from Bircham Newton where they had gone for lunch, he or his pupil hit port errond on post. On the 6th of May, he flew a press representative to take photographs of pull offs presumably from a Virginia. Not much flying took place in September but on the 30th an entry reads playing silly Bees around cloud. Another flight in the Virginia shows flying around in November ’38 but then it went to add forced landing in fog on the 9th and fog turned back. Total flying in December was only one hour but there was a reason for this, for he married Ethel Madge Birchall, who preferred to be called Madge, on the 3rd of December 1938 in the parish church at Saint Andrews in South Shoebury in the county of Essex. James, a bachelor, was twenty-nine years old and his occupation was given as RAF officer residing at Henlow camp Bedfordshire. Madge, a spinster, was twenty-eight at the time of her marriage and had no work or profession recorded on the certificate. Owen Sindall retired was recorded as James father and Jasper Beasley Birchall, captain Royal Artillery retired as that of Madge, who had been residing with her parents at Newland, nurse Road, Shoebury, in the county of Essex. James left the parachute test flight on posting to Central Flying School at RAF Upavon at the end of March 1939. Chapter three, training new pilots and flying in the Battle of Britain 1939-1941. 1939, Central Flying School and of flying instructor posting. James arrived at Central Flying School at RAF Upavon in April 1939. The primary purpose of CFS was to train pilots to fly competently. These next couple of months were then spent flying Ansons, Hart, Tutor, Harvard, Fury and Oxford airplanes. He was also cleared to instruct on the link trainer. James began his postings as qualified flying instructor in July 1939, he took his first students for revision exercise on the 24th and in his logbooks he records all their names. The Second World War began on the 1st of September 1939. James flew the Anson once that month and had a refresher flight in an Oxford instructing new students and performed several solo, navigation and forced landing tests, as well as aircraft and weather tests. In a letter to his mother, James wrote on the 15th that they had overcooked some marrow jam and it was so thick that they could almost have used the toffee to stop up the mole and rabbit holes. The only war news they were getting came from the papers [unclear] that it was generally expected that air raids would commence fairly soon so it was necessary to, quote, keep the old respirator, anti-gas handy and quote, on the 19th of December 1939, the London Gazette shows James being promoted from flying officer to flight lieutenant with the effect from the 13th of December of the, of 1939. Flying training continued from Raf Hullavington at number 9 Flying Training Service School and March of that year 1940 saw the tempo increase with up to five sorties a day, often involving three or more aeroplanes. In a letter to his mother dated the 5th of March James wrote, I taxied onto another machine night flying the other night, broke my prop and his tail, managed to hush it up. James was clearly not the only one enjoying exciting flying for on the 16th he wrote, things go on here as usual, we are just at the end of our night flying program, one of the pubs by himself landed outside the aerodrome, it’s a four inch thick tree, he did say he brushed something, came through three hedges, hopped over the road and landed on his back on the aerodrome, as his usual he had not a scratch or a bruise. It was at night and although I saw it, I only saw his wingtip lights going up and down and over. Another pub took two soldiers up without permission in an Anson, which is a twin engine five seater, and crashed, smashed the aeroplane to bits and the three of them had a few cuts and a few bruises, it’s amazing, isn’t it? Beginning of June 1940 saw the commencement of number 20 course. In a letter to his mother, Annie Sindall dated the 4th of June, James implores her to persuade the family to leave number 46 Nelson Road, Leigh-on-Sea, Essex and get away to South Africa or if not, to Wales or Cornwall, to avoid the Nazi way of bombing, not a dozen machines as in the last war, but hundreds and coming in waves at about two hours interval. I’m making it sound awful, I know, but I’m not exaggerating, will you please do something now? It’s not even safe here. We have a station defence working day and night. As I said before, don’t worry about me. I may go anywhere and at any time. To stay in Leigh waiting to see where I go is madness. July saw the end of number 20 course and beginning of 22. Within that month an entry on the third, towards the end of the day reads dawn patrol, written in red ink. With the Battle of Britain about to begin, it would seem that preparations would be made to defend the defences. James wrote to his sister Dorothea who joined the WAAF and who’d been posted to Lincoln, James was expecting to be on lookout duty that night, which would have meant sitting on top of a water tower accessed by going up an open iron ladder which gives me the creeps coming down. An enemy aircraft had shot down a pupil early in the day, not one of his, and had machine gunned him as he drifted down, spoiled him too. They say that we caught the Hun later.
CB: OK.
TS: Participation and the Battle of Britain, which officially now ran between the 10th of July and the 31st of October 1940. On special interest, James flew a Hurricane II, apparently for the first time, on the 12th of September for station defence. On the 16th he again flew a Hurricane for station defence but with the additional words after Junkers 88, the whole entry in the logbook being underlined in red ink, his method of indicating an operational sortie. He flew a, probably the same Hurricane again for air tests later in the month. At CF 5 number 5 Flying Training School signed the monthly totals confirming that all these flights had been authorised. James wrote to his parents as follows, Dear mother and dad, I nearly got a Junkers 88 long range bomber yesterday. We have a Hurricane we keep ready for station defence and three of us were allowed to fly it, very occasionally, as we waste petrol. Anyway, the Junkers came over the camp at about five thousand feet and as I was doing nothing at the time, I grabbed my bike and peddled off to the Hurricane with my brolly over my shoulder, leaped in and started up and off. I chased away the way he had gone with my electric sights on and my guns ready. Of course, I didn’t catch him. He had had too good a start. I flew around at twelve thousand for a bit in case there was another and then saw another Hurricane going past towards Swindon. I followed him in case he knew of something but there wasn’t anything there. So I came back, maybe I get one someday. The Hurricane is grand, cruising at 200 and climbing at 160, I dive quite gently and got 360. No effort at all. Cheers. Love, Jim. 1941, James flew in the first three and a half months in the year but in April he flew a Hart to Benson and on to Hullavington before proceeding to number 12 Operational Training Unit at RAF Benson to learn to fly and operate Wellington bombers.
CB: OK.
TS: Looking back at the details that were in this particular letter, it does seem a little odd that performance information should have been written without perhaps being intercepted by a censor. Maybe James’s enthusiasm for writing this up got the better of him as indeed we shall learn later on when he was in India as it resulted on his being court-martialed following interception of information of by a censor.
CB: Brilliant. So, we are restarting now when we are at the OTU, 12 OTU Benson.
TS: Chapter 4, bomber operations over France and Germany 1941 to 1942. The London Gazette dated 11th of March 1941 shows James being promoted from flying lieutenant to squadron leader temporary. In April he arrived at number 12 Operational Training Unit RAF Benson opson to learn to fly and operate Wellington bombers. After two dual sorties, James went solo on the 25th of April, with wing commander Daddy for company. Both pilots swapping seats as they built up experience on what was termed local flying practice. The next page in James’s pilot’s flying logbook displays at the top line number 115 bomber squadron at Marham and in red ink operational. The first operational bombing sortie for all such sorties was numbered by my father in sequence and recorded in red ink was flown on the night of the 10th and 11th June. Operational sorties flown with the squadron in June, July and August were in Wellingtons, all believed to be in the Mark I C. The first flight made on the 10th and 11th of June with Bailey as the captain and James as co-pilot was to Brest to attack the Prinz Eugen, a five-hour flight all at night. On the 12th and 13th my father was in command and, I beg your pardon, it was Bailey still and my father as co-pilot, they attacked Ham, the marshalling yards. The following night, the 13th and 14th, my father flew his first operational flight of a Wellington in command. They attacked the Prinz Eugen again at Brest. On the 15th and 16th it was Cologne. They attacked the railway yards and they shot down one Messerschmitt 110. On the 17th-18th it was Dusseldorf, the railway junction. On the 20th and 21st Kiel, various battle motes. On the 26th and 27th Cologne, turned back by storm. And on the 29th and 30th Bremen, town blitz. In July 1941, operational sorties continued, on the 1st North Sea sweep for dinghy, on the 4th and 5th Brest and my father wrote in his logbook, bombed Lorient. On the 6th and 7th Munster, with the remark Coventrated. On the 7th-8th Munster, ditto. On the 9th and the 10th Osnabruck, short of fuel, crew bailed out. On the 13th and 14th Bremen, snow, ice, hail, sleet, rain. On the 15th and 16th Duisburg, returned early, aircraft not climbing. And on the 24th, Brest, daylight sweep on Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen and one Messerschmitt 109 F shot down. A letter relating to the bailout on the night of the 9th and the 10th of July which is, which I’ve referenced, which is the day after I was born, still exists, my father sent it to my mother and it reads as follows. Royal Air Force Marham, King’s Lynn, Norfolk, 12.7.41, the time is 05.30 and I have just come back from Abbington where I went with Doc Bailey to see one of my crew in hospital where he is with a broken leg. I had just read your letter which you asked me if I had a good party that night. We did, we went to Osnabruck and came back to find everywhere covered with cloud, cloud at ground level. We arrived back at the aerodrome at 3.30 in the morning, but were told to go to Abbington where it was clearer and we could get down. At 4.50 we were very short of petrol, so I tried at first the distress calls, but there was such a row going on in the air, everybody calling for help, that I could get no result so eventually I sent out SOS. We got an answer from Hull, they listen in for SOSs, who said go to Abbington, they then telephoned Abbington which took twenty minutes or so to say let these people in at once. Well, we contacted Abbington as soon as Hull told us to go there but as they did not know by then that we were in an SOS they just decided to let us take our turn with the other machines. At about 4.30 the engines cut and I pushed the crew out. I decide to stay on for a moment or two to let all the petrol burn up so that she would not burn when she crashed. Then a funny thing happened, it picked up again, and spluttered and banged and I was able to fly for another hour. It was due to the change in altitude weight with the crew gone. I flew north to get nearer the dawn and to put it down in a field if possible but came over cloud again so flew south to keep over open country. I could just see light coloured fields and nothing else. At 5.40 I saw an aerodrome flash SOS on the under recognition light and landed. As I was holding off the engines cut for good, there were thirty-six other machines there from other squadrons. My crew all landed safely, one in a group captains garden, except one who broke his leg. I saved the country twenty thousand pounds of an aeroplane, but I bet they don’t get me a commission of even 5 percent. I can’t write all this out again so will you forward it to mother when you write? On the 24th of July, the target was Brest, operational form 540 states, bombing from fifteen thousand two hundred feet, dropped one stick north east to south west over target, first bomb fell in water about ten yards from warship laying alongside the mole, burst from other bombs seem to burst around other ships about half a mile south west of Mull. Aircraft hit by flak in rear turret hydraulics, one Messerschmitt 109 F was successfully engaged and shot down in the sea. Two other aircraft of number 115 Squadron that took part in this raid were captained by sergeant Prior and by flight lieutenant Pooley. The first landed at St Eval and the second in Exeter. Now, I do vaguely remember my father telling me once that on the way back from Brest, on one of his sorties there, he had slowed down to formate alongside another British bomber that had suffered badly from enemy action and was barely able to stay in the air flying slowly. As that aircraft was so vulnerable to fighters, James felt that his presence along the side, might help to ward off any attacks. In the event, both aircraft made it home to the UK, following which the pilot of the stricken airplane was told that he would be in line to receive a medal, an Air Force Cross or Distinguished Flying Cross possibly. As I remember it being told, that pilot said that he would accept such an award if offered only if some similar recognition could be given to James who, by risking his own aeroplane and crew, had ensured the safe return home of both aircraft. Apparently, such an assurance was given. Sadly, there seems to be no record as to who the other pilot was and whether or not his resilience resulted in an award. What is without doubt is that no special recognition was given to James for his effort on that particular flight. It is possible, given that James flew St Eval on the 23rd of June to collect the crew of [unclear], that the protection he had provided to a stricken aircraft might have taken place on that the 24th. August operational sorties on the 8th and 9th Hamburg, ten tenth of cloud, no joy. 12th, Mönchengladbach flak over 14, 15 Hanover searchlights, 18-19 Duisburg. 27, 28 Mannheim, crashed near [unclear], crew bailed out with my parachute. According to the squadron form 540 the record for the night of the 27th -28th of August states, Squadron leader Sindall bombing from eighteen thousand feet, dropped all his bombs south to north, just south of the aiming point, burst was seen followed by a large explosion, aircraft had to be abandoned, all crew bailed out, well that’s what they said, and made successful descend, aircraft crashed and was burn out near [unclear], now at the back of my father’s logbook under accidents, he recalls a few more details, crew bailed out, no parachute left, crashed in a field burnt and in a letter to his sister Dodo written on the 29th of August, James gave a very detailed account of what occurred that night. Royal Air Force Marham, King’s Lynn, Norfolk, 29.8.41. Dear Do, you like exciting stories so here is one. We went to Mannheim last night with a 50mph wind behind us, cracked the target good and proper and set course for home. The wind against us put us off course a bit and we stouaged over Dunkirk where we got coned and I think it was there that a bit of flak holed one of my reserve tanks. We got to Marham and as we started to come in, so Jerry dropped a stick along the flair path. Control told us to go to Honington. Off we went putting on the one reserve tank and not both as I thought there are no gages for the reserves. Honington was dead and we could get no reply to repeated calls or there we were over the aerodrome, we saw what appeared to be a flair path some distance away so wandered off there but it went out. Then the engines cut dead at fifteen hundred feet I shouted to abandon ship and the boys went out in quick time. I stretched out for my para and found someone had taken mine. I flashed a torch to look for another but there wasn’t one. I swore hard and sat back and prayed like mad. Switches off, top escape hatch open, helmet off, landing light on and went straight ahead at 80mph. At first, I saw nothing but rain, then a field and another at five hundred feet, then a village over that, then trees, then more fields, very close now, then crash, crash, crash. I went for a six up at the front, feet in the air and an almighty wallop on the head, laying there wherever [unclear] had stopped moving I felt my head and to my horror in all the blood fair rushing out it was, a bit of my head came away in me hand. Holding my head steady so that my brains wouldn’t fall out I plogged my hankie over the hole and tried to get the right side up. I did then up and out of the top hatch to trip and fall face down in turnips and mud. Got up, I walked over to an incendiary bomb which was still burning, some of ours had stuck up and lit a cigarette advert for players. I thought alright but really honestly thought I was done. I sat by the bombs, it was warm in the rain, when, bang! The blasted thing blew up, it was one of the explosive ones, I only had one boot on, so I hopped along the field holding the hankie with one hand and smoking with the other. I sang and shouted as I went, proper daft I was, until I found a nettle or something with my bare foot, I only shouted then. At a safe distance I sat on a bank and waited for someone to put in an appearance. Then poor old J for Johnny started to burn, and I sat on the other side of the bank in case a high explosive bomb had hung up too. Various aircraft circled round and when it was quiet, I shouted for the Home Guard, fire watch, girl guides, WAAFs and anyone else I could think of. After I while I was still alive so up to the standard of the second field towards a church, they have graves there, which I could see by the light of Johnny. There was a ditch, then a road, no house at all. So I started walking until I came to a cottage, still see, [unclear] this time, my words, as I opened the gate, the upper window opened and a female said, what do you want? I said, there’s been a terrible disaster, and a shocking occurrence up the road. What’s that fire? My aeroplane. Oh, your aeroplane? I’m a parachutist now. Have you a telephone or where is there a doctor as I have a hole in my head? The doc is round the corner. Window down with a bang. He was and then I went to [unclear] hospital for stitches and bandage and here I am back at Marham once more wangling sick leave. The bit of my head must have been a bit of Johnny which I had broken off. So there you are, life is never dull, I’m due for six days about the middle of September so they may make it twelve days. Cheers, Jimmy. September ’41, operational sorties, just one, went to Karlsruhe, natives friendly. The operational sortie to Karlsruhe would appear to be the last operational flight James made within Bomber Command. In October, he flew Wellington again on a marker test and twice in formation, on formation flights, he also managed to carry out an air test in a Hurricane. There was no flying for the month of December. In January 1942, James made one flight, an engine test in Wellington 1645, this lasted thirty minutes and he just two crew members on board. In February he flew twelve times in five days on Whitleys in the beam approach training flight, accruing some eighteen hours, of which fifteen and three quarter were logged as instrumental cloud flying. He then flew as part in command three times in a couple of Wellingtons on local sorties and then he flew a Hudson from Port [unclear] to Kemble and a Wellington from Kemble to Lyneham, his grand total of flying hours now stood at one thousand, five hundred and twenty. He had no flying in April, May, June, July or August because he was on route to headquarters, New Delhi, India and James was not to set foot in Europe again for three years.
CB: What we know from all our experiences of all our fathers really is that they didn’t talk about what they did in the war but occasionally there were snippets that would come out perhaps in social situation so did you ever get any feeling for your father’s approach to things later?
TS: Not a great deal, my father became very reserved after the time when he left the RAF. His life had changed as my mother had died and I was now away joining the RAF myself and when I saw him on holidays for many years after that he never really talked to me about anything and certainly didn’t talk about the war. I think, in common with many people, who’d lived through it, they wanted to put that past behind them and get on with their lives.
CB: An interesting aspect of this perhaps is that you were in the RAF for many years, you had exchanged posting to the Royal Australian Air Force and when you came back and visited your father in Spain, what was his reaction to your urge to tell him what you’ve done? He didn’t want to know. Right, so moving on now to his next posting.
TS: Chapter 5, Air headquarters India 1942 to 1944. He was posted on May the 21st to from [unclear] 44 Group to West Kirby for posting to air headquarters India. On authority of Air Ministry postagram for duties in connection with a selection of sites for aerodromes, on May the 26th he travelled to Newport on to board the P&O steamer Cathay that had recently been converted into a troop ship in the USA. James left the UK on the 27th of May 1942, stayed through Freetown and Cape Town and arrived at Bombay on the 23rd of July. When he reported to headquarters New Delhi and he learned that the people that had asked the Air Ministry in London for a surveyor, not a general duties i.e. pilot bloke, can you please delete it? Anyway, a place was found for him on the training staff, will I ever get away from training, he said. And then the next three days was spent reading files to find out how Air headquarters functioned. In September, James arrived at Lahore, headquarter to 227 Group and then started visiting various squadrons, first 31 Squadron at the aerodrome. Later he left Lahore for Delhi and by 30 he was back in the office there. On the 26th of September, James was promoted to acting wing commander on the strength of the training staff. October the 1st went to [unclear] by road, into tribal territory up and down the pass, quite exciting, everybody had a gun except me. In January 1943, he reports on the first, not feeling too well, on the 4th he was felt really ill in the office, and this was the beginning of a long period when my father was affected by malaria. Not only malaria was rampant, but so was too was prickly heat and by February my father had contracted jondiss that resulted in three weeks sick leave. James applied for a couple of weeks leave having had none for two years. He remained in his quarters throughout April and in May went to Chakrata on sick leave. In August he started leave travelling by train to Rawalpindi where he hired with a friend a houseboat. Back in office in September, today we’ve been at war for four years, another two should finish it off, I hope. September the 18th very hot, could not sleep, on the 19th not feeling well, really ill, reported to the medical officer, malaria, into the British military hospital straight away, bad afternoon and night. In October, James learned he’d be posted to HQ 227 Group as wing commander training who’s assessed for being fit for duty. On arrival there, he felt familiar signs of malaria returning and was packed off at the hospital. As a result of that, he was downgraded and ranked to squadron leader war substantive. On the 23rd of October 1943, a colleague told James that a ladder to dad, James’s father, had been stopped, all males vetted before leaving the unit. On the next stage, James was yet experiencing familiar symptoms of malaria and had to take leave. In December, he arrived back in Bombay and waited for a posting. On the 11th, he heard that a date had been set for a court martial that would consider an alleged offence associated with the contents of a stopped letter that he’d been told about in October. On the 17th of December, James wrote, we saw an enormous comet fairly sizzle across the sky, never seen such a long tail. And on the 21st of December, the general court martial held at headquarters 227 Group Bombay was held. James was being charged with conduct prejudicial to good conduct and air force discipline etcetera. In that honour about the 13th of October I posted in Bombay a letter containing references to movements of Halifaxes and Lancaster aircraft in this country. The prosecution called the duty pilot at Delhi airport to say that one Lancaster had arrived on the 9th of October, no Halifaxes. As James had no defending officer, the deputy judge had a break whilst he instructed me how to conduct my case. He told me to say that the prosecution had not proven their case and therefore I had no charge to answer. I did so. Another break whilst the court considered it and I went again, not guilty, hurray! And my beautiful fireproof defence was never needed. So that was that. I came back to Karrian and had a quite evening doing the round of rat traps. I can remember my father mentioning this episode as I recall he had whilst delirious with malaria and the associated medicines written to the effect that hordes and hordes of Halifaxes and Lancasters had been flying overhead which was quite clearly a delusion. December the 22nd, I’m off to Bhopal to be present of a court, president of a court of enquiry into a crash at Bhopal or near there. What a wizard service this is, prisoner one day and president the next. It means I shall have Christmas at Bhopal. Should be good. December the 31st, the last day of ’43, and now I can see I’m due having next year, seems very comforting. James records that on the 2nd of January he decided to build a sundial outside the mess, using hard wood and an old celluloid computer, spending most of the afternoon marking in the times, North, South, East and home. There was to be small garden around it. On the 4th of January he decided the sundial required some to finish it off, a verse or something, so during the evening, he produced this, remember that the group responsible for his being there was 227 and they don’t pay much attention to our once. This is what he wrote. To those who have to or who care, put on their letters Callyan, little stranger passing by, pause a while let’s slip aside, for we who knew Bombay was heaven were posted here by 227. For company we lack it not, rats, snakes and mozzies are our lot, the sun beats down, no fancy given, we’re even there with 227. Time marches on in Solam state but awful thought if from the gate of India with [unclear] a ship sails home with 227. Of course, I’m prejudiced, said James in his diary, but I think it bloody good, I wish the OC of 227 could see it. He has no sense of humour. James later referred to this as the headstone of rank and sent a type copy to the editor of the journal of air forces, accompanied by a rather long sundial serenade. This was actually published in the journal, pages two and four of the Indian edition, volume two number two dated the 10th of March 1944, the only change being made that numbers 227 were changed to 527, so as to confuse the Japanese. On the 18th of January, James wrote, my posting came in with a mail, Poona for a fresh air flying a Wimpy and then onto ops, just what I wanted two years ago. Still it’s gonna be wizard, have to keep it quiet from Madge though. Wrote to Jasper telling him only. Three days later, James arrived at Poona and started his Wellington Mark X conversion refresher course, doing navigation, intelligence and lib trainer sessions. A red-letter day if ever there was one, I flew, actually flew myself in a Wimpy, first time for a year and ten months, not too bad landings either. On the following day, he took over the sea flight, when the CO went down with malaria, and found himself having to organise flights, air tests and training exercises with the navy. Chapter 6, number 215 Bomber Squadron, Jessore 1944. February 1944, operational sorties, in a Wellington he flew to Pru a six-hour night flight. James made four sorties in February. On the 2nd he wrote, I put up my 39-43 star ribbon as all Euro rifles ex-U have, ex-UK have. Note, this was subsequently to become the 1939-1945 star. On the 17th, James set off for Jessore at number 215 Squadron where he was to become Bee flight commander was met at the station by the squadron in Jeeps and a fifteen hundred weight truck on the platform, never had such a welcome anywhere, the party continued until 3.30. The next two days were spent meeting people and finding his way around and he flew in Wellingtons doing circuits and bumps. Then, on the 22nd, he flew his first operation in [unclear] bombing the [unclear] dumps with squadron joe’s captain. No opposition at all, took off in daylight and got back 11:00, flares dozens of them all over the place, [unclear] fires. After returning from a flight to Lahore to collect spares flying through an intertropic front, lots of extra flying, very wet on the 25th, he flew twice on the 26th, once to an overload test, and once doing circuits and bumps. The dairy records, quiet day and party in the evening. I was eventually debaged after putting up a stiff resistance, had a finger in my right eye, bruises and a bash on my nose. The following day the diary reads thus, due for ops this evening but the medical officer has put me on service [unclear] for two days on account of my eye. Had three accidents today, one, joe’s undercarriage collapsed and slid off the runway, two, starboard engine of A flak machine cut on take-off and it crashed and burned out a mile away, four dead out of five. I pulled out two bodies, the fifth crew member died on the 28th. Three, night flying aircraft with no flaps, went off the end of the runway, one hurt, what a day. March 1944, an operational sortie was flown to Anissakar aerodrome. The other squadron that was with them, number 99 of Liberators bomb went off to bomb Rangoon. On the Sunday night the 5th James took off in one of the Wellingtons to attack the town of [unclear] on the Irrawaddy but returned after twenty minutes when the port engine oil pressure dropped to below the minimum acceptable 70psi, makes you think by which I surmise he had in mind the recent loss of the Wellington due to engine failure just a few days earlier, just might have been repeated. After this, James had three weeks leave to stay in a bungalow as the guest of a maharajah with the aim of hunting tigers. On March the 13th he bound a boar on a first drive with one shot through the head, followed on a second drive by a dough and a stag [unclear]. James’s name was not drawn out to go on the tiger shoot, only two officers were allowed but one was shot by an American. April 1944 operational sorties on the 3rd and 4th all in Wellingtons he flew to Yaju, violent explosions, on the 5th and 6th to Akyab, four thousand pounder, dirty, 8th and 9th Mandalay four thousand pounder, on the 17th a seven hour journey air sea rescue Sandoway, found out ultimately that was unsuccessful although some of the air craft searching reported that they had found a dinghy in lights they were lost and the crew were never returned. On the 23rd and 24th they attacked Maymyo barracks missed it diverted to Fenny and on the 28th Kallowar daylight. On the 21st of May the entire squadron with the exception of two crews was detached to 3 Dakota squadrons to assist in supply dropping on [unclear] in the Arakan and Burma. I went with eight crews to a station north and operated over the [unclear] near to Kina Morgan area. The Dakota is a very nice aeroplane, I like it, did twenty trips, some in foul weather. Returned to Jessore on the 15th of June, having been away just over three weeks. Stayed at base long enough to collect clean clothes, we’d been in the jungle and off to Kolar near Bangalore for conversion onto the Liberator VI. Now, my father’s logbook entry show that before being attached to 117 Transport Squadron, he flew one operational sortie to Kalimo in Wellington [coughs] on the first of May. And the second [unclear] to drop a four thousand pounder at the Infa area on the 9th. Conversion onto the Dakota began on the 23rd with circuits and bumps, followed by loaded landings and flights with soldiers on board. The first operational sortie was [unclear] lake and the 29th of May with a payload of five thousand five hundred pounds. The average trip times were between four hours twenty minutes and just over five hours. And in this length of time he flew some 17 operational sorties to Indigoy lake so a total of seventeen operational sorties to various destinations, all in the space of fourteen days, all in the Dakotas, either air landing or air dropping, three fifths of the Dakota time count towards tour time. The RAF operational record for 117 Squadron states that one aircraft was lost in June 1944, the crew being part of a detachment from 215 Squadron who’d been helping us for a time. The machine was last seen approaching [unclear] when it was flying normally and there is no evidence to show why it did not return. The loss of this crew is much regrated as the 215 boys had been popular in the time they had been with us. The detachment later returned to their parent unit as did the C-48s manned by American crews. Each of these had done much to help the squadron 117 during a particularly arduous period. The last entry for June 1944 shows a flight back to Jessore at the end of the attachment in Dakota Whiskey with 29 crew. On the 10th of July James flew the Wellington to Kolar to join 1673 Heavy Bomber Conversion Unit to learn to fly and operate Liberators and the RAF 540 for July reads squadron leader acting wing commander J Sindall general duties pilot posted from 215 Squadron, squadron leader flight commander post to 215 Squadron wing commander post with effect from the 10th of the 7th ’44. Chapter 7 number 219 Heavy Bomber Squadron Digri 1944. On the 28th of July my father flew a Liberator under instruction from squadron leader Sharp, a familiarisation sortie with circuits and bumps and on the 31st after another circuits and bumps session he flew solo with his crew. In August James completed his conversion onto Liberators, that’s the B-24 Mark VI and his dairy showed that he returned to Jessore on the 21st of August and having been given command of the squadron with effect from the 10th of July. I settled down or tried to run things and dealing with a number of bloody-minded gunners. Six flights were made in September all in Liberators, two for fighter affiliation and others associated with communications, including the squadron move on the 15h to Digri with an expectation that they would join wing headquarters at Dhubalia later on. After the move, James and his squadron personnel set about settling in, finding that the mess was a bit of a mess, ha-ha, but not so bad as he had left behind in Jessore. There was on my father’s squadron a Canadian by the name of flying officer later flight lieutenant Frazer who wrote and published a book which detailed much of what took place on the bomber squadron at this time and in which he mentions my father by name. I will be quoting one or two little pieces from his book. Flying officer Fraser describes his first meeting with James thus 16th of September 1944. I must have met him before but now I see how [unclear] sitting with three others at the table right in front of me. Two I’ve met but not the one with three blue stripes on his shoulder tabs. Of course, that’s the CO, Wing Commander Sindall, I only saw him from a distance at Jessore but whilst I’m trying to give him the white silver, the wing co gives me a flip with his finger a-ha, I’m being summoned, I slide off the stool and say, yes sir, managing a quick nod to [unclear] at the same time, at least I don’t have to salute, you don’t unless you’re wearing a hat, which is lucky, I don’t know how I managed to holding a glass of beer in one hand and a cork bottle in the other. You’re Fraser, I believe, the CO says, not sounding that excited at the thought, you’ve met our [unclear], this is squadron leader Beaton, and flight lieutenant Williams, their nods are almost imperceptible, what’s all this about? Welcome to the squadron, from the wingco, still sitting he extends his hand. To shake I have to get rid of the damn bottle and the only empty place is under Sindall’s outstretched arm. When I put the cork there, he pulls his hand right back. He extends it again but cautiously reaching around the bottle, lightly concerned about knocking over my beer which is thoughtful maybe why his handshake is so limp. Standing before him, I’m been given a thorough examination by cool eyes in a solemn face. It gives me a chance to look him over too. He’s an older type of young guy into his thirties but not far into, dark hair, small moustache, good features with a firm chin, a sort of military look. He might even be a handsome fellow if he hadn’t tried smiling. In this climate, Fraser, at this temperature, do you really think alcohol makes sense at the Landshar when you don’t know what cause you may be, yet be asked to perform today? I glance at the table, all their glasses are filled with lemon limes, well sir, I didn’t expect a large bottle, well, [unclear] come very polished at all, so I just finished with, I guess not, sir. Then I say, you’ll be right, he said, but welcome to the squadron. October the 5th, one of the other squadrons, 159, did a low level daylight on the Bangkok railway, lost one aircraft unheard of, one ditched out the Cheduba island, we sent out aircraft daily and at night, we found it twice [unclear] lost it again. Today I’ve only got three aircraft [unclear], two are off at four, one should go out at eleven then we can do no more. [unclear] October the 13th, one aircraft at 0400, another one at seven, they will be the last, I’ve no more aircraft. October the 14th, it’s amazing how the ground crew do things, I was able to put two aircraft in the air. October the 15th, no joy with the air sea rescue, it’s been called off, poor devils. I recall my father saying that with so many crew members wearing shoulder flashes because on his squadron there were members from England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, eight Canadians, fifteen Australians, half a dozen each from New Zealand and South Africa, one from the States, one from Brazil and one from Fiji. There was also one Indian equipment officer and several [unclear] followers. But with so many crew members wearing shoulder flashes displaying their country of origin, my father had some made up with England that the British could wear. November ’44, operational sorties. On the 2nd to [unclear], weather good, two thousand two hundred miles, it was a twelve-and-a-half-hour flight, all at night, twelve thousand feet, fifteen hundred pounds of bombs. On the 26th, [unclear], a marshalling yard, leading a formation of twelve aircraft. And then Fraser wrote, on the 3rd of November, action at last, not for me, the squadron, just four crews, but 215’s first ever bombing trip in Liberators. I didn’t hear it until this morning, sitting in the shade behind the flight shed, we saw them circle the field for landing, strange there’d been no take offs that we knew about, within minutes three more, Roy Williams who runs Bee flight when O’Connor’s away came out of the office with a field glasses, Liberators? Four of them? Whizzo! The crews were on a mission last night. Mission? What mission, we clammered? We didn’t hear about any op. Aircraft V, that’s O’Connor, Roy says mostly to himself, glasses pointed at the runway a quarter a mile away, good landing, Percy! Now B, that’ll be [unclear], here comes Jimmy Ross, very nice Jim, where’s the fourth? Alright there he is, that’s the wingco, whoops! Hold it straight, James! Ok, you’re down. Even without glasses, we could see that wing commander Sindall put another dent in our runway. A good pilot in other respects, he is famous here for terrible landings. Not that if you bumped or anything to be ashamed of, maybe we are even a bit proud of the CO who can make jokes about his bounces. Everyone’s excited and full of questions, where did they go? What was the target? But the answer is, really, did the CO and two flight commanders go on the same mission? Well, they did, William shrugs, maybe because it was an unusual target, shipyards at Vin, well, was there, Burma? No, further east, French Indochina. Before Fraser flew on his first operational flight, the wing commander started the meeting with a little speech, I guess it was intended as a pep talk but it didn’t come over like that because Sindall is more of a low key type, wouldn’t go for razmataz stuff, mostly he just wished us good luck, for those going on your first operational flight, just remember you are well trained crews flying an excellent aircraft that is exceptionally well armed. If you remain alert, keep your wits about you, you should have no problems whatsoever. The sortie went well and the crew enjoyed their operation. In the days before the raid at [unclear] on the 26th, James carried out bombing practice on the ranges and practiced formation flying with pilots of 99 Squadron. This culminated in his leading of the twelve [unclear] formation. Some bombs fell west of the [unclear] outside the target area but many bursts were observed on the tracks and station buildings causing a heavy and secondary explosion with much black smoke. The weather was good and no opposition was encountered. In December on the 10th, James flew with his crew to [unclear] Bangkok railway, trail-busting eight hundred feet and also [unclear] railway station, five hundred feet, heavy anti-aircraft opposition, rear gunner killed, two thousand five hundred miles on a fourteen hour mission. The squadron form operation says that it was sergeant Day that in Liberator Lima who was killed by shrapnel from a small calibre shell fired from the ground, I can recall my father telling me that after they had landed he carried out the task of removing his rear gunner’s remains from the turret not wishing to delegate this to anyone else. We should of course remember that Kanchanaburi is that featured in the Bridge over the River Kwai and there was a letter received from a KJ Porter from New Zealand who was a prisoner of the Japanese at this time, naturally we were all scared when bombs began to fall and some bloke’s nerves were in a bad state already but I personally and some of our mates welcomed the sight of those big birds floating over seemingly all powerful and indestructible as this was the first, real sign to us that the Allies were now on the offensive and the end was in sight. Perhaps just as well we never knew you were flying down from India but imagined you were using captured bases around Rangoon or thereabouts a few hundred miles away. When I lay on my back in a shallow monsoon rain outside our hut by the Kwai bridge, it gave [unclear] commentary on the raids, the adrenaline surged, and I thought, now these bastards are getting some of their rain back. The great thing was that you appeared just when morale was at an all-time low and gave us a much-needed boost, so I feel we are indebted to you. Number 215 Squadron moved from Digri to Dhubalia on the 27th of December 1944. Chapter 8, number 215 Heavy Bomber Squadron Dhubalia 1945. James flew only once in January 1945, he went to [unclear], little opposition, earthquake, number 28 Korak railway yards, these were both in February, no opposition, in March on the 11th, two Rangoon dams, leading formation, dam accurate, flat [unclear] but also damn accurate and on the 19th to Nanyen railway yards, two thousand four hundred miles, that was another fourteen and a half hour flight, on the 24th they went to [unclear] again, Uk dumps, very hazy, just made it, flat fool proof, this time they dropped seven thousand five hundred pounds, on the 29th Rangoon, Japanese army headquarters with a seventh brigade, good [unclear], large lumping [unclear] but accurate, eight thousand five hundred pounds. There was a letter that he received from the AMC, Air Marshall Keith Park, who’d only recently been appointed Allied Air Commander in Chief, written to all officers commanding squadrons and upgrading them for not maintaining the efficiency of wellbeing of service personnel regarding messy and he said, that it seems to me that some units pay less attention to the wellbeing of their men than we did to our horses when I was a junior officer, it was a matter of pride in those days that we got the very best rations and fodder for our men and horses and a little bit extra yes for luck. I’ve got the letter still and in it my father’s written in blue crayon with an end, with an arrow pointing to the word horses, with [unclear], when I was at Poona, so I don’t think he took it too seriously. April 1945 operational sortie to Kaykoy, Bangkok area, individual aircraft in a gavel, first time this was attempted in South East Asia, weather good, bombing good on railway yards, two thousand four hundred miles and dropped six thousand pounds and that was another thirteen and a half hour flight. On the 10th of April the airfield was struck by an unexpected hurricane, the aircraft were mainly alright although most had shifted into wind and on the 13th Wing Commander Sindall announced to air and ground crews the intention to divert to Dakota transport aircraft under combat cargo task force, training to begin immediately so suddenly everyone was changing from operating the Liberators which they were quite happy with to becoming a transport squadron. Everyone was a little stunned. But still there was a visit from Air Commodore Melash CBE RC Air Officer commanding 231 Group and he spoke very well of his regret at the squadron’s departure and his appreciation of the excellent work they had done, wishing every success for the future because Sindall also was leaving to go home and then it was not long before the time came to go back and wing commander Buchanan arrived to assume command of the squadron on the 28th of the month and then Sindall entered in his final logbook the following in May, 2nd of June in the Liberator self to [unclear] one hour. On the 4th in the Liberator Karachi with sixteen passengers, eight hours fifty, on the 5th with the crew Shaima Cairo fourteen hours ten, and on the 6th Cairo Malta Lyneham. I can remember visibly my father looking out of the lounge window one day when I saw someone I did not recognize open the little gate that connected the pathway from the front door to the pavement and calling out mummy, mummy, there’s a strange man in the garden and then recall well as my mother rushed to the door and they fell into each other’s arms. Issue 37119 of The London Gazette dated the 8th of June 1945 shows James being mentioned in dispatches and the London Gazette promulgated on the 20th of July 1945 that James had been awarded the Distinguished Service Order. The citation reads, this officer has served in both the European and the Far Eastern theatres of war, during his first tour of duty he attacked many of the most heavily defended targets in Germany. Now on his second tour of operational duty, he has taken part in many sorties against targets in Burma and on numerous supply dropping operations. Many of these missions have involved flying over difficult terrain in adverse weather. Wing Commander Sindall has at all times displayed outstanding organising ability and great devotion to duty. He has lead his squadron on many low level daylight attacks against the enemy’s lines of communications and rolling stop and has always pressed on these attacks with skill, courage and determination. By alongside the [unclear] of the DSO at the end of the war my father now wore in order a 39-45 star, the aircrew Europe star, the Burma star with rosette depict his entitlement to the Pacific star, the defence medal, the war medal 1939-45 with oak leaves to depict his being mentioned in dispatches, later on, much later on I, his son, was able to add the Bomber Command clasp to his 1939-45 star, and a photograph of my father after he returned from Southeast Asia, shows him wearing a wound stripe, a vertical bar above the right rank on the left seam of his number one dress. That’s the only record I have of his wearing band. He then served on the staff of the Air Ministry in Whitehall from the 15th of July 1945 until the 23rd of June 1947 in the post of bomb ops, bomb operations 1. War against Japan ended on the 14th of August 1945.
CB: It was really good, thank you very much.
TS: I cut back on a lot of.
CB: Now of course, while you were away, you with your mother were staying in England, what were your, you were very young at the time, but what were your recollections of the happenings of the time?
TS: I have only one very clear image in mind, bearing in mind I was about three years old, and that was because we were living alongside Southend-on-Sea, we were in the firing line for many of the doodlebugs that came over and also there were many comings and goings of aircraft. I have one clear image and that was from within the iron cage that my mother and I slept in every night on rugs underneath the kitchen table. My mother going to the French windows, pulling back the curtains and looking out and beyond her silhouette I saw lots of lights which were most probably anti-aircraft gunfire and searchlights and maybe some explosions, that was my only memory of activities in the war. But we were not alone, we were accompanied all this time by Remus, a cocker spaniel, he’d entered our family about two years or so before the start of the war and he lived for a good length after it but Remus was the first early warning system we had of the approaching enemy bombers. I don’t know the reason why but I put it down to the fact that the engines that powered the German bombers made a different sound to those of our aircraft and then Remus associated that sound with the discomforting bangs and explosions and flashes in the sky and therefore used that as the early warning for us. One other remembrance I have and I suspect it was on V, Victory in Europe day, when my mother and I went down to the seafront [unclear] and there were a line of American army trucks and they were all in a very high and happy mood and one thing we were able to do was to make a voice recording on a little, tiny disc and I think I sang a song or recited a poem but that no longer exists unfortunately but that just reminds me of the euphoria that existed at this moment as people were so pleased that in Europe the war had ended.
CB: Brilliant. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Timothy Sindall
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-08-01
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASindallTH170801
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:41:46 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Timothy Sindall is the son of James Herbert Sindall DSO, whose career as a pilot in the Royal Air Force started in the mid-1930s. Following the discovery of all of James logbooks, personal letters and newspaper cutting, Timothy has put together a biographical account of his father’s career. The logbooks have provided a detailed account of aircraft and sorties flown. Letters to family give detailed accounts of various incidents, including one where he was forced to crash in Norfolk and another where he faced a court martial. A letter from a former prisoner of war who worked on the Burma railway describes how morale amongst prisoners raised when operations against the Japanese reached them. His first logbooks commence with him being a civilian and then joining the Royal Air Force qualifying as a pilot in 1936. At the outbreak of the war, he was posted to the Central Flying School to train new recruits. In 1941, he was posted onto Wellingtons at 115 Squadron at RAF Marham and then in 1942 he was sent to Air Headquarter in India. Much of 1943 was lost when James contacted malaria. 1944 saw a return to operations, when he was posted onto B-24s of 215 Squadron. Bombing operations throughout South East Asia were then carried out. Post war, James served in the Air Ministry.
Spatial Coverage
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Burma
France
Great Britain
India
Bangladesh--Jessore District
England--Norfolk
France--Brest
Bangladesh
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1936
1941
1942
1943
1944
Contributor
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Ian Whapplington
Peter Schulze
115 Squadron
12 OTU
215 Squadron
aircrew
B-24
crash
Hurricane
military discipline
Operational Training Unit
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Benson
RAF Henlow
RAF Marham
training
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1115/11605/PSchneiderT1702.2.jpg
253b1bb03df06456d9be85a27476c3c2
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1115/11605/ASchneiderT170428.1.mp3
c9ea20470217553e23e0abf4cca50d9e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Schneider, Tim
Tony Schneider
T Schneider
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Tony Schneider (1931) his identity card and three photographs. He lived on the flightpath to RAF Westcott and witnessed a Lancaster crash.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Tim Schneider and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-26
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Schneider, T
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Wednesday the 28th of April 2017 and I’m in the village of Westcott with Tim Schneider, whose real name is Tony and he’s going to talk about his recollection of early days. So, Tim, what do you remember as your earliest days of life?
TS: My earliest days of life.
CB: What age were you?
TS: I can remember as a three, four year old, living in the house I was born in, in the Lodge Lane in Westcott, which was owned by Rothschild Estate, because that farm was with Waddesdon Estate, my father worked for Waddesdon Estates and he lived there as a rent-free employee. I remember my father being poorly paid with regards working, but he had a house rent-free so he had to dig an allotment outside the house to help [unclear] and he, to make ends meet, we had to live off the land so to speak and as soon as we was old enough we, as four, five years old, we was feeding the rabbits, to feed us sometimes the rabbit, we had rabbits as pets, my father also kept pigs which was a supplement to the household, I think once a year we killed one, and I can remember him going up there with his buckets to feed the pigs every day in the morning and as we got older, we had help come out but as my first four year old I can remember him taking his buckets up there. At five years old I went to school and walked almost a mile to the school up in the village and you started at five, you didn’t start at four years old, you started at five in those days, and you stayed at school until you were elven years old. You took your eleven plus, which [unclear] failed, and after you either failed your eleven plus or passed it, you moved on to Waddesdon School, as eleven-year-old. By that time you managed to scrame a bike or get a bike somewhere so you was out to peddle around the villages, as far as mum and dad would let you go in them days and I failed this eleven plus so I obviously went to Waddesdon School then, which was a secondary school, and you bored your mind a bit because you had some garden to do up there, they’d give you a garden plot and that brought you into your fathers regain that you’d gotta help with your family budget and help in the allotment, which you did, at fourteen years old, getting to go at the allotment to help feed the family, which not only that my family did but all the families in the village, was kept by allotments really. There was a greengrocer coming round, but he did very little trade whatsoever, it was a crime if any, the people in the village bought potatoes off them because they self-supporting the potatoes off their allotment. I was the youngest of a family of five so it had to be that we all had to muck in and do this gardening, which was probably forced up you when you might been kicking a football round but that had to come first, the garden come first and then you could go and have a game of football. At the age of fourteen I left school and the only, the only real reason for it was because mum and dad wanted you to contribute, you left school so you had to get a job, where you earned a few shillings, and the only employment round here apart from going to Aylesbury which mum and dad couldn’t afford to send me or I couldn’t afford to go, you took to the farming. And I worked on the farm, the field farm, I did that, I sat there working out. When I was fourteen, I left school, working for an uncle, who was a farmer and I did farm work right until I was about this, I was twenty-seven. I worked on a farm until I was twenty seven, and that time I had managed to go on a holiday and meet my wife and [unclear] this holiday when I was about twenty, eighteen, nineteen, we married when I was twenty-two. And [unclear] we went to a pub in holiday camp at Clacton I met my wife and only way of [unclear] married life to be able to support her, was down on the farm so if she came to Westcott with me and we set up home with my parents, we then moved to a little cottage down the road here and we just, I just worked on the farm, [unclear] just say I got security, which wasn’t a very profitable security at all, but it was a job that you could get, you could get your wife and then we had two children come along and I was happy to maintain our children and in 1969 the farmer who my uncle retired from the farm, so I had to change my occupation then, and I went down to the road then to just past the Westcott turn on the way to Kingswood there was a fertilizer depot down there, supplies for a loads of, to farms and I was [unclear] to go down there for eighteen years then, there again maintaining my children and brought them up and obviously as the years went on, they fled the nest so to speak. We moved from our little cottage, when we had the first children [unclear] which was a, went up one day with the [unclear] in the garden, after the first child was born, we was able to get the council estate across the road here, which was the only one [unclear] built in my lifetime in Westcott, because I worked on the farm, I was able to claim it, because I was a farm worker and I had it, and we lived there till our children fled the nest and we came across, the wife and I came across this old people’s bungalow some years ago, after the childrens fled, and but after, oh, after I’ve been down the fertilizer store for eighteen years, and I was just an ordinary stacker driver, I had got no trade so just a stacker driver truck and it brought a lot of heavy lifting and work and to make ends meet, I’ve always been a person that would do anything other than the job I was doing, I had many job during my life time, spare time. One was serving beer in the local pub and from that experience I was picked up the pub life which I enjoyed cause I was earning money and I was in a place where there was a bit enjoyment and I could increase my income of wage cause I was never a big earner at wages at all and I loved the pub trade and the one chance I took in my life was when the Westcott social club come up for a new club steward and I stood the one chance in my life and I took the Westcott social club on as a full time steward, going against my father’s advice a little bit which he’d always told me, never do anything that’s a risk, and I really didn’t do it till that time and I did take the Westcott club on and I worked there for, uhm, till five years ago. But I did resign when I was sixty-five from it after I had eight and a half years there and I must say that was the best job I ever had, thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it and I did do myself a little bit of by going heavy cause I worked long hours, very long hours, seventy hours a week, and thoroughly enjoyed it. When I was sixty-five, I had saved enough money to say, well, I think I can’t do seventy hours more, I’m gonna retire. And I did retire and then I went back normally cause things went a little bit downhill, and I went backwards and forwards a little bit, helping out but I finally retired five years ago. I lost my wife elven years ago with cancer and I lived here now so there was, the past eleven years on my own, here in this bungalow, in this flat on my own and survived and here I am as a retired man and still living in Westcott. I’ve got no, I’m not an enterprising man at all, you’re talking to a man who is eighty-six in about three weeks’ time who’s never owned a motor car, never had one. I think that sums me up [laughs]. Is that enough [laughs]?
CB: That’s really interesting, thank you. Now, the reason for talking to you is because we’re in Westcott at the side of what was RAF Westcott number 11 Operational Training Unit.
TS: Yes
CB: When the war started, you were eight, because you were born in 1931
TS: Yes,
CB: The airfield was built shortly afterwards, what do you remember about the beginning of the war? What was the first thing you remember about the war?
TS: I remember them forming a home guard, I think in Westcott. I remember the big diggers and navvies and who were I think [unclear] devises, were the main contractors, [unclear]
US:
TS: Sorry?
US: I got it down as Humfries
TS: Humfries, yes
US: [unclear]
TS: Yes, I think I’m wrong and you are right, yes, humfries. I remember all that coming in, the concrete being laid in the fields, much one or two of the farmers [unclear] being roughed up and concreted and I can remember the first aeroplanes coming in and going. I can remember the RAF, the fields, the billets where the aircraft, the airmen lived had to be away from the aeroplanes so they was dotted around in various locations away from the airfield in field, in billets, I got my rationing I was [unclear] in hindsight, I think there was tenth they called them, in numbers and the village was right past [unclear], we would [unclear], there was billets away from where the aircraft was on the site, remember that. I can also remember them building a WAAF site which was near the cricket field, I can remember that going on and I can remember it all taking place and lots of people, air, personnel of the air people around here, they just [unclear] by the village, hell of a lot and the aircraft started to fly and we assumed then that’s what it was, they was training aircrew, we was told that and obviously the blackout was here, everything was black tilled, and the house, the airfield I think had three runways if not four, three and one of them was coming in from, oh, east Sefton, Sefton North, East or something, it come by the house by the cricket pitch, which is where I lived, it come across that way, and went in and so [unclear]. And they’d come so close, that line was so close to our house that we could come our bedroom, plane come in, draw the curtains back and we could see the pilot by our bedroom window going in to land. It was that close when they come that line, that way because it depended on the way they landed, I believe, where the wind was. Sometimes they’d come in over the A41 and they’d come by [unclear], I can remember plainly seeing that pilot sitting in his cockpit [unclear] by my bedroom window [unclear]. And also the taking off, the same thing, when the wind ran the other way, take off you could see his pilot then, you could see the aeroplane landing cause it was only hedge high [unclear] or tree high, put it that way, coming in. The other things I can remember, which I don’t know whether you’re interested in that one or not, the air people around here obviously increased everything around here, and rationing was on, and even the pub in the village was rationed with beer but these airmen drunk the pub out in about three days and after they’d drunk the Westcott pub out, they rode their bicycles to God knows what, to Quainton, they’ve got five pubs and they drunk them out as well. So, a lot of the airmen in them days, went across to Quainton and obviously Quainton was a bigger village than Westcott, there was quite a lot of ladies around and then the airmen at Westcott called Quainton Hollywood, that was nicknamed Hollywood because of that. Is that making, is this interesting to you?
CB: Very good, very good. Keep going
TS: And that, that I can remember. I can also remember another thing, probably you’ve been told about the Lancaster going across the A41.
CB: What do you remember about that?
TS: Well, I remember they used to have various [unclear] going across there, and there was a Wellington bomber had gone across there and I’d been in the field and they hadn’t removed it but they were guarding it, this Wellington bomber, and then, soon after that, seven months after that, I don’t know how long it was, I can’t tell that, after that, I remained in the field on the A41 and across the A41 and they were guarding this plane over night before they removed it and seven nights went by, I think it was, and then, for some reason other there was a Lancaster bomber, due to arrive in Westcott with bombs on, why I don’t know, you probably do, I don’t and this, this was warned about, there was gonna be danger with this and this Lancaster bomber surely did land, went across the field near where this Wellington bomber was and the guard posting on duty at the time went along to the houses, along the A41 just away from the Westcott turn to tell the people they knew what was gonna happen to take their air raid shelters which we all had our Anderson air raid shelters because this was gonna be dangerous and he went to warn those people in those houses and coming back, that poor man caught the blast and he was killed. I’m sure you’ve heard of this. And you have to be [unclear] to [unclear] man and he was killed and there was a lot of damage done to the surrounding properties that night with these bombs going off. The aircrew was all killed, were New Zealanders and I think they will find someone up in the church yard now, there’s a New Zealand crew, they’re up in the church yard now I believe, you’ll find but this [unclear] gentleman was killed. There was an old lady in Westcott who every village had them and they still got them or of course gossip for the village know if you like to call it whoever it was, this old lady called Mrs Evans, wrote a letter to [unclear] to say she sorry, she wasn’t very of being killed one thing and another, at night the stained glass window in the church got blown out on that explosion and because of her writing out letter [unclear] it probably transpired from that perhaps, that stained glass window got replace by [unclear]. Her husband, Mrs [unclear] Evans husband, also they got one son called David, who is my age, every week before Christmas, almost sent a crate of cider to that man’s house every week, every, just before Christmas they received a crate of cider every week and died the son had it until he died as well from [unclear]. The house where the farmer lived, named Peter Cripps, there was a [unclear] called Victoria Cottage, that was a Victoria house I think called because it was his, Peter Cripps’s grandfather he lives there now, is his grandfather, Ernest Cripps, a lovely old gentleman, who we all respected, was smartly dressed like yourself is now, we always taught to respect people like that, and he was a respected man, Mr Crips, and he lived in a house with his wife and as I said, he got home guard round here, we also got ARP and I think it was their job to, if anything like this happened, to go and see if people were ok. This gentleman, Burt Saunders, tells a lovely story and that was a true story that he goes along to Victoria House halfway up where the farmers house is now to see if they were alright. The door would been blown off, open and he could hear murmur upstairs and he shouted up to, are you alright Ernest? To this gentleman, he couldn’t make nothing of it and he was worried, so he went up the stairs and this is a true story I’m telling you, he said, there was Ernest, crawling around the bottom of the bed, his poor old wife was laid in bed, with [unclear] past the ceiling, all round around the [unclear] bed, and he said, oh, he said, you’re alright but I can’t find my colour stand [laughs], he was looking for his colour stand [laughs]. He wasn’t got the ceiling round and he was worried about his colour stand [laughs] and that is true. Also, the house that took a fair bashing that night also was where on your bike is now, that was a wooden home built bungalow by Mr John Goss, he built his own bungalow up there and that was a wooden one and that was all damaged that [unclear]. The other, my other, going forward then is when the war finished, we had all the Germans prisoners, all the prisoners of war going back here and they came in Dakota aircraft and they’d done whatever all the various people, in fact my sister went across there in the hangars to manoeuvre repatriated back to, if you want a better word, delouse them and give them tea and coffee and everything else before they repatriate, and we used stand at the end of the road, waving to those boys in open back army lorries as they went to wherever they was going back home. The thing I suppose, [unclear] tell you some.
CB: You talked about the reception and local people helping out
TS: Yes
CB: So, what exactly did they do?
TS: First of all, they were there to, the WVS, so they were all voluntaries people, they, I think all their contact was, was to give them refreshments before they went but I think these boys was medically examined. The various things, I mean, people say the common word was their delousing, whether that was, I mean, that’s not a good description not I don’t know, yes, and I think and then, they made sure they was fit to go back to where home or wherever they took them, they distributed them from here to different places and then they went home, I think. Yes. That’s about
CB: So, after the war, the airfield was closed and then it changed to something else, what was that?
TS: Market research, yes, do you want me to carry on? Yes
CB: So, that brought in a different type of person.
TS: Certainly did, it certainly did, I mean, to add to that, if you like my sister married an aircraft man, he was stationed at the Westcott and she married one of the aircraft boys from Westcott, he came from High Wycombe, he was just, he fuelled the aircraft, that’s all he’d done, but after the war, yes, all this opened up and along came this massive industrial thing, rocket, making rockets as is so, am I right in saying that? I think I’m right in
CB: Rocket research
TS: Rocket research
CM: Yeah
TS: So, it brought lots and lots of people and it, it just went, well, went from the airfield [unclear] crazy almost, you know, you had troll fourteen busses coming in from Aylesbury, all various, all year round, to employ people, it employed a lot of people, and it opened up this rocket research [unclear] all these, concrete and things, they had big noises, we still get noises now but it was Chester rocket fuels and not lots of noises, there was a big important thing that was that made the village because it brought houses here, it doubled the size of the village, it’s not troubled, with houses and I’m right in saying that one in every, one in every three [unclear] was building houses in the time immediately after the war was commandeered by Westcott workers, you know? [unclear], I think he does. And so there was a lot of people coming from Aylesbury to work at Westcott. And they were Westcott workers and it developed the village immensely and we had the social club and everything not we were allowed into it but that would all come along at the time and it developed the village into something massive, yes, it did, it all caused, caused a bit of a storm, a stir because they brought American German scientists back here to work and that wasn’t very acceptable in them days to people in the village and there was one particular man who was called Doctor Basky, who was a German scientist, rocket scientist what they called him, and he helps at the neighbourhood by applying for a bungalows we built, the top end of the village [unclear] in Westcott, am I right on this? Have you heard this? You haven’t. There’s a bungalow built up there, he applied for a bungalow, but he hadn’t got access, and he got a go across Westcott Village Green, reckless he applied, to the Westcott village council if you like to call it in them days, to go across the Village Green where we’d played all our lives, and my dad had played his life a suppose, access, to this bungalow, there was uproar, a German in a bungalow in village green, yeah, have we not, not enough for this, [unclear] with the people, my father was one of them and there was a gentleman in the village called Mr Bricks, he was supposed to be a bit of a solicitor, come what, a lawyer or whatever you like, and he formed a [unclear] to stop this, they all paid thirty pounds and they went to London court and Mr Doctor Basky, because he was working for the government, he won the day on that, and he got his room, the bungalow was built. It went across Westcott Village Green and that bungalow is still there today and where Mr Clap lives, you know, that just sold me neighbours six hundred thousand pounds that bungalow and they still got the access through Westcott Village Green. The reason they won the day there was because they had, they came back with was, that it was common land, the Village Green [unclear] common land and the boss of the common land was the lord of the manor. Nobody could find the lord of the manor, whoever he was, but it turned out to be the priest. And he still is. Hence the bungalow went up. Against a lot of wishes. This caused a stir but [unclear] the rocket research, everything else, yes, it made this village, yeah, yeah, it’s still there, it’s still there, isn’t it?
CB: Just on that topic, are we talking about the church priest or the local chapel priest?
TS: The church priest.
CB: Right.
TS: Yeah.
CB: The Church of England man.
TS: Yeah.
CB: So, what was the public reaction to his support for the German?
TS: Well, he didn’t have to say yes or no, they’d already decided, there is all the aftermath I’m talking about
CB: Right
TS: That was sold, there was no question that man wasn’t going to get our permission
CB: Right.
TS: No question
CB: He wasn’t involved
TS: No, no, no
CB: Going back to the war,
TS: Yes
CB: What was the, the two parts, one is the construction of the airfield
TS: Yes
CB: The next is its occupation by the RAF. In construction, where did the workers come from? Were some locals and others imported?
TS: [unclear] but they was, they was transported in from Aylesbury, they lived in hostels in Aylesbury, they wasn’t all local by any means and there’s too many to be local. They was in hostels in Aylesbury and they brought them in minibuses [unclear] I could see the coaches bringing them in, they just transported wherever they could lodge them and obviously there was [unclear] Aylesbury, a lot of them there
US: Did they build a camp to [unclear] them?
TS: Sorry?
US: Did they build any sheds for them at all?
TS: No, I didn’t think they did, did they? Can’t remember that.
CB: Were they, were they all British or were they other nationalities?
TS: There wasn’t [unclear] nationalities, a lot of them was Irish, yes, yes. Yes, lot of them was Irish. Yes.
CB: So, the airfield opened in 1941
TS: Yes
CB: And then the RAF people came, what effect did they have on the locality?
TS: They was welcomed, I mean, was happy to see them, I think everybody was pleased, yes, they was accepted without doubt, yeah, there was not, they was accepted as something, well, just Westcott, they’d never seen Westcott like it before, I mean, me father was, yes, they was all happy about that, all happy about that, yes, and they thought it was helping, it was helping, was it?
CB: And on the airfield, they would have had various social events, how much did they incorporate?
TS: [unclear] social events on that, no, no, they wouldn’t, they didn’t incorporate the village on that, no
CB: Right
TS: In fact this social club where I worked and had known so much about was the officer’s mess [unclear],
CB: Right
TS: That was the officer’s mess, yeah. [unclear]
CB: So, when they drank all the beer in the pubs, what was the local reaction to that?
TS: Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing nasty, no, nothing nasty at all, no, we, I would say, when they drank the beer it didn’t take long to drink it because it was only a small community and [unclear] joke but they did [unclear] what I got for a pint of [unclear], they’d drink it dry and we [unclear] next week and that was it, and when they finished, the pub didn’t open the next couple of three nights, so they, they got off to Quainton, yeah
CB: And in, locally in the pubs did, in the evenings, did you, you were still at school age, so you didn’t get out.
TS: No, my father, my father did, yeah.
CB: What about your brothers and sisters, what were they doing?
TS: My brother went to war, my sisters worked in, I don’t, the brother only a year older than me but I had two sisters older, they worked in, they lived in, with my mother, they worked in the factories in Aylesbury, they got a bus on the A41 to Aylesbury, yes, yes, they worked in various factories in Aylesbury.
CB: And your brother, older brother, what did he do, when he joined the forces?
TS: He was in the RAF. Yeah, yeah.
CB: What did he do?
TS: [unclear] say, say that, wasn’t [unclear] but he wasn’t
CB: Wasn’t round here
TS: No, no, he wasn’t round here, no. Where was he now? I think he went to Surrey, someway that somewhere, yeah. I honestly can’t tell, [unclear] that one
CB: So, your father was working on the farm, during the war
TS: Waddesdon estates
CB: Waddesdon estates
TS: The other bit about my father, now you’ve brought him up, the name being Schneider,
CB: Yeah
TS: I’m sure you wondered,
CB: I was just going to ask you, so thank you, go on
TS: My father was an American. He came to Waddesdon when he was three years old with his family from [unclear], German Jews they were, they came, Rothschild imported labour to build Waddesdon manor and he came with his father then as three years old worked at Waddesdon manor his father did and he was only three years old then when he came. It cost a lot of money to be naturalised and he never did it and when war broke out, my father was passed as an alien, he couldn’t vote, he was American, he was American till he died. He couldn’t vote and every month the policeman come for him to sign a paper to make sure he was still there, and he wasn’t spying or anything like that, he had to sign a paper every month. The policeman came to [unclear] him every month. My father signed that paper cause he was not naturalised, he [unclear].
CB: How did he feel about that?
TS: Beg your pardon?
CB: How did he feel about this approach?
TS: he didn’t worry, he didn’t worry, yeah, he didn’t mind, yeah. He couldn’t join the home guard, he couldn’t do anything.
CB: No. So, what was the reaction of the local population to him, with his name like that? Oh, Schneider?
TS: He, no, no, no reaction, whatsoever. No, no, he lived the village all his life. They knew him, was hard working people all those people in them days. No, he was accepted, he was not an outcast for any reason, [unclear], no, no, he just, he did things for the village [unclear] like I did.
CB: So, his father had come over
TS: He was [unclear], yes,
CB: Yeah. And with the Rothschilds, they of course looked after him anyway.
TS: Well, they’d give a house, that was [unclear] Rothschilds that was the little thing, you work for me and you can have a house for nothing. It’s all [unclear] in them days, what they call them nowadays
CB: Yeah, ok, and your mother was obviously busy looking after her children
TS: Yes
CB: But did she do an extra job as well?
TS: She, no [unclear]
CB: Right
TS: She didn’t do anything
CB: There was plenty to do anyway
TS: There wasn’t [unclear] and going back to, these, war, I mean, that school up there, they were inside overnight with evacuees from London, you know, when he was there and we just had to bring all chairs and tables in sitting where they wanted, we couldn’t have any of them because we were five in family, we haven’t got room. There was quite a lot of evacuees brought from London down to Westcott and that doubled the size of that school, you know, I’m talking about from twenty to forty overnight and those [unclear] very few children around here.
CB: So you, in your school you had these evacuees, how did you liaise with them?
TS: Very well, very well, very well. Yes.
CB: And they were used to being in a city and they were now in the country? What was their reaction to that?
TS: Well, for my recollection of that, the children was happy, their parents came to see them as often as they could, and the people who was looking after them was happy to accommodate them in somewhere other and I think it all worked out pretty well, it did, yeah.
CB: Did they stay throughout the war or did they return to London, some of them, after the Blitz?
TS: After the Blitz, they returned, yes
CB: All of them or just some of them?
TS: Some of them. Some of them still remained here and they made a life here, yes. Oh yeah, not many of them but they did, yeah. There was no mossy about that whatsoever, no, no whatsoever. No, as wartime it was accepted, wasn’t it? You know. Oh yes.
CB: Where would they be accommodated mainly? Would they be in the villages?
TS: In the village.
CB: In the village here.
TS: Yeah, if you got a spare bedroom
CB: Yeah
TS: You could have two.
CB: Right
TS: We hadn’t got any spare bedrooms there cause were’ five in the family so we couldn’t have any but
CB: And did the people who were putting them up get an allowance for looking after them?
TS: I can’t tell you that, sorry
CB: They would have had extra food ration of course but
TS: They got food ration, yes, I’m sure they would but I can’t tell you that. I don’t know what situation that was.
CB: Ok.
TS: Right.
CB: Now, at the school, which is on the edge of the airfield,
TS: Yes
CB: Everybody is conscious of the flying and the people there
TS: Yes
CB: How did the school handle explaining what was going on in the war?
TS: They just, I think they accepted it as something that’s got to happen and they just accepted that way. They welcomed it basically, say they welcomed it, they appreciated what was going on, but there was no objection whatsoever, none whatsoever.
CB: Did the RAF occasionally send somebody to talk to the schoolchildren, both the primary and secondary?
TS: No
CB: About what was going on?
TS: I can’t remember that, no, can’t remember that.
CB: And of course, secrecy was very important,
TS: Yeah
CB: But to what extent did people talk about what was going on at the airfield?
TS: Well, they said well, there’s night flying tonight and then daytime flying, training these aircrew, it was about all there was to talk about really. That was what it was for and that’s what people talked about. They said, oh, you know, I don’t know what number they had here a dozen of Wellington bombers, more?
CB: Oh, they had about twenty-six.
TS: Did they?
CB: Yeah, or more. Yeah, and the number of RAF personnel was two thousand two hundred.
TS: No, nobody, nobody ever complained about the thing at all in my [unclear], no
CB: You said, you said that your house was right beside one of the runways
TS [unclear], yeah
CB: So, uhm, the flight path, the planes going past were close. Did you get any sleep on those nights?
TS: Yes, because they, you know, I’m talking about when it getting dark at eight o’clock, probably finished at twelve o’clock. They didn’t go one night, no, they didn’t go one night, no.
CB: Except in the summer where they had to
TS: Well, yes, right, yes, yeah
CB: Fly later
TS: Yeah, you, we [unclear] of it, in fact we were happy [unclear] locally, quite honest
CB: Exciting for kids
TS: Well, it was, yeah, but my dad never complained, no. Everybody accepted it. No, everybody accepted it because this thing was got to be done and helping to win the war so to speak, I suppose in a way if you’re thinking about it.
US: There’s a question from me.
CB: I’ll just stop for a mo.
TS: One thing, sorry
CB: Go on, go on.
TS: Well, another thing that I can remember too, looking at that window, was the night Coventry was built, bombed, they, some [unclear] rather thought that field there was Coventry
CB: This is November 1940
TS: Was it?
CB: Yeah, [unclear]
TS: They must have thought they got to Coventry one of those bombers, you could hear them going over, you could hear them [unclear] they called them, going across, within the flight path of Coventry put it that way. And all at once, that field was alight with incendiary bombs
CB: The airfield?
TS: No, the field
CB: Just the field, where you were
TS: Yes, yeah and we felt [unclear] cause that field [unclear] and we were looking out to the fireworks, lighting the [unclear] field up it did, it really did, no bombs to drop, we thought, we ran down and got [unclear] and everything but nothing, no bombs had dropped but there was a bit of a false alarm but they thought that won’t protect the bomber or whoever it was, thought it was at Coventry but it wasn’t. So, nothing was dropped
US: This is before the airfield was built.
TS: No, during the war. 1940.
CB: 1940
TS: Yeah
CB: They were building it then, weren’t they?
TS: Yeah, building it, yes, right.
CB: Yeah
TS: That, that was that, that was a lovely sight, I can assure you, me and my brother were looking at it incendiary bombs. When we went next morning there was like a big wood, metal stick, like a firework had gone off, you find a firework, bit of wood but that was metal, these things were metal, those bombs they seemed to us, and we picked them up, two or three of them.
CB: And these were, were these landmines that they’d sent?
TS: They were incendiary bombs
CB: Oh, they were incendiaries, right.
TS: [unclear] told they were incendiary bombs
CB: Yeah, the spike
TS: The, [laughs] the blame that for that went on a guy who made a living during the war, who worked on the farm [unclear] catching rabbits and he had a rabbit round on a Friday night, he came with carrying a bicycle [unclear] rabbits on a Friday night cause for rationing and we’d eat rabbits and he was making the money rabbits and he got the blame for that for flashing a [unclear] catching these [unclear] rabbits, he got the blame for that, whether it was true or not, I don’t know [laughs]. He used to do it, he used to flash his light [unclear]
US: Speaking of lights, referring back to your senior aircraft landing out your bedroom window?
TS: Yes
US: Were there any runway nights
TS: There was
US: Yeah? By your place?
TS: Yes, [unclear] across the field
US: Interesting [unclear]
TS: Sorry?
US: The [unclear] lighting system
TS: Yeah, there was poles
CB: Poles
TS: A lot of poles
US: Yeah?
TS: Every so many yards, back across those fields, towards Quainton, yes, there was, yeah
US: Was it in all the runways or just [unclear]
TS: That one, yes, yeah, cause that was on our field, one thing or two, there might be some, [unclear] I’m not sure about that
US: [unclear]
TS: Yeah. There were lights, yes, there was lights and lights, yeah.
US: And the other question I have on related, there was a dummy airfield down the road at
CB: Grendon Underwood,
US: Grendon Underwood
CB: By the A41
TS: Yes, I know what you mean [unclear]
US: Do you anything about that?
TS: No, I don’t. No. Wasn’t Oakley, brother and sisters at Westcott.
CB: Oakley was
TS: Oakley, Yes, yes
US: [unclear] Westcott
CB: This other airfield is a dummy airfield just beyond Kingswood, down on the A41.
TS: No, I’ve got no recollection of that. I’ve got visions of here and about it but no, I can’t [unclear]
CB: Did you, as youngsters you would walk a bit but you could a bike you could cycle around. Did you cycle around much as a youngster during the war?
TS: Yes, yes
CB: And where would you go?
TS: Kingswood, Kingswood. Yeah. Kingswood or Waddesdon. Yes, yeah.
CB: Just for something to do.
TS: Just something to do, yes. And then you got this thing on your portable lamp if you were out at night that shone down on the ground so [unclear] wouldn’t go up in the air. But not much, I mean, yeah, there was a bit security form my parents on that they wouldn’t, well, we did have air raids so [unclear] just said, we all had Anderson air raid shelter and if you, if the air raid siren went, you didn’t always go in it, I was there [unclear] if you wanted it, it was in our back house.
CB: Describe the Anderson shelter that you had in your garden.
US: [unclear]
CB: Four feet high.
TS: Four feet, it was [unclear] like that, very solid [unclear] and the net [unclear] it and a solid piece of metal on the top
CB: Right
TS: Yeah
CB: Then, what was on top of the metal?
TS: Nothing.
CB: Oh.
TS: So, the [unclear] was that, square, get six in it, laid on it, and the object, the story of that was we got a direct hit of a bomb [unclear] top of that table, you’d be safe under it
CB: So, where was this cited?
TS: In here
CB: In the house
TS: Oh yeah.
CB: Right. So, this was the inside Anderson shelter.
TS: That’s right.
CB: What about outside the house, what sort of arrangements were there?
TS: There was people dug, dug things in their garden, we didn’t but it was
CB: And what sort of shelters did they make?
TS: They made them with wood or concrete.
CB: On a dome shape.
TS: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
CB: And covered with what?
TS: Earth.
CB: And what, what did they have inside them?
TS: Oh, nothing, [unclear]
CB: Just a bench
TS: Yeah, yeah.
CB: Ok. How many people could get into those?
TS: They dug as many as [unclear] family, if it was five or if it was four, six, [unclear] family, a big family [unclear]
CB: And who paid for those?
TS: The people dug themselves, oh yeah.
CB: Was it with material that was supplied, or did they have to buy?
TS: They had to buy it, oh yeah
CB: Right.
TS: That’s what everybody [unclear], they gave you these air raid, these Anderson things
CB: In the house?
TS: Yes
CB: Yes
TS: Yeah. I think situation if there was children which we was
CB: Right. You talked about rationing but you, your diet was supplemented by what you grew
TS: Yeah
CB: And what you could catch
TS: Yeah
CB: Did you also get deer?
TS: No. No. No rabbit sort of thing, no
CB: Hares?
TS: No. Not very often anyway.
CB: What about pigeons and things like that?
TS: No, what, no, we didn’t.
CB: But you kept chicken I presume.
TS: Oh yeah, chicken, [unclear] pig, [unclear].
CB: So, how would you describe the family’s diet?
TS: Old-fashioned but good, eggs and bacon and meat, when Dad killed the pig hung up on the wall [unclear] load of bacon and you had two of them off the pig, you got two hams as well and every now and again Dad would get the cow and get it off the wall [unclear] cut a piece off and that would [unclear] bacon, we had that.
CB: And when a slaughter, when an animal was slaughtered, there was a lot of meat and you’d wanted to spin out, so how did you preserve or how did he preserve the carcass?
TS: You salted it, so pork became bacon.
CB: So, how was it salted? Was there a big trough or how did?
TS: Yes, you had a lead, lead thing like that, [unclear] they were done in leads, pure leads, you could done it yourself, you [unclear] the salt on it, yeah and that was for about six weeks. Then it came out of the salt and you hung it up and [unclear] three quarters of a year sometimes, yeah
CB: Because of the salt in it
TS: Yeah, I kept
CB: So, where did you keep?
TS: Bacon
CB: Yeah, where did you keep it in the house?
TS: Hung up on the wall. Yeah. There would be one hung up there on a hook and that was it.
CB: So it,
TS: It was salted
CB: It lasted a long time
TS: It did, yes, it did.
CB: Was there a larder in the house?
TS: Yeah, sometimes it was outside, yeah, there was a larder in our house. We was lucky with the house down there [unclear] the damage to the when my Dad, if you go down and look at the house now, that was made [unclear] brickwork, [unclear] loads of work if you look [unclear] anywhere
CB: Yeah
TS: Solidly built, my father said no [unclear], I won’t this bloody [unclear], me swearing but that was his words, and this bloody Einstein [unclear], you [unclear] going out [unclear] I’m not [unclear] and he was right against others that just as [unclear] brickwork, yeah, yeah.
CB: Just pause again. So, if we move now Tim, to post-war,
TS: Yes
CB: The rocket research establishment was set up here in 1946
TS: Yes
CB: And these people you talked about who came in were scientists. Who were they and what was the local reaction to them?
TS: Well, as I said, the local reaction to them was not very good. We fought the war, they come here and they give them [unclear] jobs, it wasn’t a very good reaction at all, so no, it wasn’t. Hence the man getting in trouble building his bungalow.
CB: Yeah
TS: It wasn’t a very good reaction and at the same time they said it was needed and, I mean, he was an exception, that man having his bungalow cause the rest of them made do with the old ex-Picket huts, buildings what the RAF had lived in, they lived in, they were squatters in not very good conditions, four or five of them, they was, probably eight, if I say eight I might be overdoing I think.
CB: These were men on their own, they didn’t have families with them?
TS: Oh, they’d got wives.
CB: Oh, they did?
TS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they squatted where, they [unclear], they [unclear], they wanted to be here but they wanted a job, I suppose, but, I mean, they lived in not very good conditions at all, this man made his money and he built this bungalow. Oh yeah, one of the family called Jessons, I mean, they had family here and they went to school with my children.
CB: Oh, did they?
TS: Oh yeah. Oh yes, oh yeah, yes. They were accepted in the long run.
CB: So, gradually they were accepted, were they?
TS: Oh yes, yes, yes,
CB: But immediately after the war, what was the public reaction? How did they express themselves?
TS: Well, they didn’t mind, the first reaction to getting these German scientists was, oh, they bloody German scientists here, they we fought against the war [unclear] and all that but they did get used to them but the bigger majority of the people in Westcott welcomed that place because [unclear] all at once everybody got a damn good job, everybody worked at Westcott. In fact they called it Holiday Camp, that was known as Holiday Camp that was, when Westcott, I mean, everybody went there to work, they wanted workers and everybody went there to work and it was easy work, and you know, I mean, if I think of these scientists wanted a piece of metal carried or some carried, there was an old [unclear] in the village, he got a damn good job carrying it to them and he’d never had a job in his life like that, before he worked round the farm or round about to Aylesbury, people used to [unclear] to Aylesbury, they used to work and now at once we got Westcott here, oh my God that was, you know, there was, you know, money was no object it seems and they got a better job with a pay and they, a lot of people accepted that and that wasn’t only at Westcott [unclear] I mean. My brother in law, who I said was an RAF man, he immediately got a job there, he was an MT driver on the site and he was going to Buckingham, when he was at Buckingham with a bus in the morning and picking up all the villagers on the way back from Buckingham, coming back with a busload of workers. Westcott was, well, wonderful to people that was, Westcott. It was well thought of. I didn’t work there because I wouldn’t take chances, I was [unclear] workwise but there’s a lot of people and not only that, they had the benefits of, I had an uncle, my mother’s uncle worked out there, he [unclear] course [unclear] say he was living in benefits, he was sort of man he was in them days put it that way and when Westcott came along, he got a job as a laborer [unclear] just in his element, not only that, when they had a sick pay scheme, they had a sick pay scheme and for thirteen weeks he’d go to the doctor and get a [unclear] in them days which he’s still doing now [unclear] if you go to the doctor and get a certificate, you sign out cause he’s not allowed to be [unclear] that was and he go and get a certificate and for thirteen weeks he should have a full pay, he was working for the government, he’d never had that [unclear] life and a lot of people round here, by God they made [unclear] out of that, and after thirteen weeks he went down on half pay so he turned his [unclear] you know, he did have some, [unclear] I tell you he did and there’s a lot more who did as well, not only him, and it was so easy for him, it was [unclear] paradise to Westcott when that opened up that place in Westcott. Oh God yes, there’s people round here now, went there half time, living on lovely, healthy pensions, believe me [laughs]
CB: Meanwhile,
TS: [unclear], you’re not saying anything [laughs]. No, no, it’s true what I was saying, I mean, it was paradise for Westcott when that rocket place started, yes. And the surrounding villages, I mean, people. So, as I say, it was queued, I’m not joking, from the A41 to where the pub was in Westcott, there was a queue of traffic, with busses to get out of Westcott to go home. I’m sure you’ve got photographs of that perhaps, yeah. You know, there’s a lot of people working in Westcott, I don’t know many, probably [unclear], but a lot of people,
US: [unclear] very few people worked at Westcott
TS: Sorry?
US: According to you, very few people worked at Westcott, there’s a Holiday Camp?
TS: That’s what they called it [laughs], that was known as [unclear] camp, down at Westcott, Holiday Camp.
US: [unclear]
TS: [unclear] Holiday Camp, yeah.
CB: Meanwhile you are working for the fertilizer depot. How did you enjoy that job?
TS: I enjoyed it cause I was, I enjoyed all my work because I provided for my family. I had a boy and a girl, I had a family to lead, I was a family man, and I wouldn’t take big chances [unclear], I never had a car, [unclear] luxury if I wanted one, and I couldn’t afford it and I wouldn’t have it and that’s been my life [unclear] and so against other people having the Holiday Camp or whatever you like to call it, I’d never interfered me, it was just, I was always a very cautious man as regards my family. And that’s how I live my life. And I was able to save a bit of money although I worked [unclear] hard and whatever say that, anybody [unclear] talk to you will tell you that. But I was able to save a bit of money and I, I don’t got no secrets, I [unclear] this house and I have four hundred and twenty five pound a week and [unclear] for my investments and my pension which I paid in for and I think I care [unclear] and that’s how I ended up and I’m happy, I’m not boasting when I say that, I’m pleased I’ve done it. But I was never ambitious, no. Westcott working, it didn’t appeal to me, no, because I was trying to [unclear] but I mean, yeah, I’m saying, these people, got good jobs there, they didn’t, they weren’t all scientists, they were only laborers but they’d got a damn good job if you needed one, you know. I mean, I can tell you the story of a man who used to live in Ashingham, you remember what we were talking about, it was there again, you get back to the benefits people today, he was one of them in them days, you see, pack out [unclear], doing the job [unclear], packing up, packing up, he got a job at Westcott, best thing he’d ever done, and he was just an ordinary laborer digging the waterworks, pipes and if there was any digging, trenchwise digging, [unclear] his name was, he would be the man to dig the hole, ok, he was the digger, well, he was nothing but [unclear] and they knew it and they would try to get rid of this man and this is a true story again and the foreman knew he [unclear] and the only way you’d get a sack at Westcott if you refused to do anything, they could dismiss you for that, but they set a trap for this guy, and he said, ok, [unclear] was the foreman, he said, ok, we’ve got no digging today, [unclear] he said, we want, can you paint? We’ve got to do some painting, they wanted him to say, no, I’m bloody ain’t gonna do it, but he didn’t, he went the opposite way, he said, [unclear], he said, he said, of course I can paint, anybody can, [unclear] can paint, [laughs] he [unclear] was [laughs], he’s [unclear] gonna sack me, he don’t know [unclear] him, [laughs] he wasn’t gonna say no, to get [unclear] that was [unclear] trying to explain really and nobody, they put a lot of people, they put a lot of people. Yeah, my sister worked there at the laboratories, although she was inspecting this, inspecting that, scientist, he wanted this, he wanted that, she ran that, [unclear]. Not done wrong with that rocket research, there was never wrong, [unclear], can’t see nothing wrong with it, but it did put in a lot of people, I suppose, I suppose it done its job as well [unclear] he ain’t [unclear]
CB: There is still research going on there.
TS: Yeah
CB: I’ll stop the tape now. Thank you very much indeed Tim. Fascinating.
TS: My pleasure. [unclear] three laborers. So, they were doing his work, so to speak and if he wanted another one, they employed somebody. So, he did get a job at Westcott as a laborer, if you hadn’t got anything up here, you could get a job.
US: But it was, it’s true because alter the war, you couldn’t get anything so the only way they could do any work was to make it themselves.
TS: Yeah.
US: So, they had to have a full range of people there,
TS: Yeah
US: To do everything,
TS: Yeah
US: [unclear]
TS: Yeah
US: So, that’s why you got any [unclear] skills there.
TS: Yeah
US: And
TS: Yeah
CB: The companies were the same
US: Yeah
CB: In, they, what they’re now called vertically integrated.
TS: We, after you know, I mean, I first took [unclear], that was still very much subsidized by Westcott and there was open [unclear] just store [unclear] and night, I used to cringe cause he come in, what have you done this morning? I ain’t done nothing, you know, [unclear], you remember him? [unclear] he was, typical one he was, I’ve done nothing this morning, you know, used to cringe,
US: [unclear] comes down to our meetings
TS: I know
US: [unclear]
TS: I liked him, I liked him, [unclear] yeah [unclear], I liked him, but it was easy job [unclear], you know, I’m not saying there’s no, was it wrong? I don’t know, they seemed to, get [unclear], you know, yes. Yeah, well, I mean, [unclear], say where you’ve been, you lied, you know, you got to, you had to find some, and I said dinnertime, this isn’t or I got tied up with the Morgan, he was the union man, Mr Morgan, he was the union man and everybody, he got tied up with him, you could get away from him, this [unclear], where you’ve been? I got, Morgan stopped me, Morgan, [unclear] for? He said, I did and he said, in a minute [laughs]. Yeah, that was the sort of thing that we’re on.
CB: It was the system.
TS: It was, yeah [laughs].
US: [unclear]
CB: This interview, this interview with Tim Schneider was part of the “We were there too” series of people who were in the war but not in the forces and in this case next to the airfield.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Tim Schneider
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASchneiderT170428, PSchneiderT1702
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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01:08:15 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
Description
An account of the resource
Tim Schneider lived at Westcott before, during and after the construction and occupation of RAF Westcott as 11 Operational Training Unit. He tells of feeding the rabbits when he was four years old; leaving school at fourteen to help working on the farm because, in a family of five, everyone had to help out; at the age of twenty seven, left the farm and went to work in a pub. Remembers when the airfield was built in 1941. The airplanes were landing so close to his house that when he drew back the curtains, he could see the pilot in the cockpit. Tells of food rationing and how they supplemented by raising and eating their own farm animals; incendiary bombs being dropped in a field the same day Coventry was bombed; beer rationing in the pubs and the aircrews drinking all of it; children being evacuated from London to Westcott and accommodated in a local school; Anderson air raid shelters in people’s gardens; a Lancaster crash. After the war Westcott became the sight of the Rocket Propulsion Establishment where both German and British scientists were employed. Remembers how the local people initially didn’t at all like the German scientists working there and tells of one of these scientists wanting to build a bungalow at Westcott and the legal dispute around it. Emphasises how the Rocket Propulsion Establishment boosted Westcott’s economy, creating lots of jobs for people from the local area.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941
11 OTU
bombing
childhood in wartime
crash
evacuation
home front
Operational Training Unit
RAF Westcott
shelter
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/70/717/AAn00974-170413.1.mp3
7b601175f7d1834f67ccdfb1c3feb0ae
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Three survivors of the Po valley bombings
Description
An account of the resource
This collection consists of one oral history interview with three survivors of the Po valley bombings.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-13
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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An00974
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Filippo Andi e sto per intervistare le signore [omitted]. Siamo a Vellezzo Bellini è il 13 aprile 2017. Ringraziamo le signore per aver permesso quest’intervista. La sua intervista, le vostre interviste registrate diventeranno parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’Università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarvi e tutelarvi secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signora [omitted], vuole,
Interviewee: Eccomi.
FA: vuole raccontarci cosa si ricorda del tempo di guerra, in particolare dei bombardamenti avvenuti nella sua zona, dove abitava?
I: Eh, mi ricordo sì, che da quel particolare lì che noi abitavamo in una cascina che era in direzione del Ponte d’Olio, era il ponte più, un punto più preciso per i bombardamenti, venivano proprio di sopra della cascina e tiravano, e bombardava sempre il Ponte dell’Olio perché lì era, non so cosa c’era, che per loro era un punto più di riferimento. Poi va bene, prima di arrivare al ponte c’era un paese che si chiamava Orzinuovi, era un paese di molti partigiani, fascisti e via discorrendo. Mi ricordo bene quel periodo lì, ecco. Poi mi ricordo quando sono venuti alla cascina per cercare un partigiano che hanno fatto la rivoluzione per tutta la cascina quale che lui, benissimo, era scappato, era scappato fuori in una campagna dove c’era la, diciamo la produzione del tabacco. Lì c’è stato un po’ di trambusto, un po’ di difficoltà di tutti, anche con la famiglia perché venivano in casa e buttavano per aria tutto per vedere se delle volte erano o nel letto o nel mucchio del granoturco, vedere se era sotto, non so perché, come faeva a capì, e invece casa non c’era niente. Poi per proteggere, anche per vedere se ghe c’era qualcheduno che diceva la verità, portavano i ragazzi, i ragazzini come me d’otto anni dietro, perché dicevano che se non si diceva la verità mi avrebbero picchiato. E allora noi non è che potevamo dire la verità perché non era in casa nostra, era il figlio d‘un nostro principale che, lui benissimo era a casa ma noi non è che possiamo dire lui era a casa. Nel frattempo lui ha fatto in tempo a scappare. È scappato fuori, loro sono andati in casa, non hanno trovato niente e la roba è stata finita lì. Poi, sì, lì al paese ci sono state tante cose, tanti bombardamenti. C’era sto signora lì che l’hanno perfino pelata, perché era una partigiana, le dava fastidio non lo so, era perché era ricca, non lo so, lì l’hanno pelata tutta.
FA: Si ricorda qualche bombardamento in particolare?
I: Bombardamenti particolare no, perché diciamo lì alla nostra cascina non è mai successo niente, vedevamo solo a passare che buttavano le schegge, dicevano le schegge, i nostri genitori dicevano le schegge, magari erano bombette, non lo so. Diciamo proprio bombardamenti lì no. Sono stati al paese e sul Ponte dell’Olio. Noi, essendo vicini, si vedeva ma non che abbiamo visto proprio.
FA: Vi arrivavano i rumori, insomma.
I: Sì, sì.
FA: Lo spostamento d’aria.
I: Lo spostamento d’aria e così via. Però vedendo proprio da buttare giù. Poi quando c’è stato finito la guerra sono passati tutti con i carri armati i tedeschi e na davan de mangià.
I: Americani.
I: Erano gli americani na devana, passavan con i carri armati, eh quanti, e li davano giù quel pane che sembravano gallette.
I: Gallette le chiamavano.
I: ecco, il pane che si chiamano gallette e lì è stato quando la guerra è stata finita. L’abbiam finita nel ’45, ecco.
FA: Ok, va bene. Eh, signora [omitted], lei invece abitava alla cascina Brunoria.
I: E infatti, lì vicino a Pavia, proprio. E quando hanno bombardato, cosa lo chiamavano, il Ponte dell’Impero, quello lì lo chiamavano? O no?
FA: Quello di cemento?
I: Quando hanno bombardato Pavia, cos’era il Ponte dell’Impero, lo chiamavano?
FA: Sì, dell’Impero, sì. Di là c’era quello della ferrovia.
I: Che e poi mi ricordo che erano i primi di settembre no, noi eravamo, io, mia sorella e mio fratello eravamo nei campi a spigolare le patate.
I: Ah sì.
P: E niente, mia mamma è venuta a cercarci, no, perché in linea d’aria eravamo lì ad un paio di chilometri eh dal ponte, o forse neanche. Adesso non mi ricordo più però.
FA: Mi pare di sì.
I: Ecco. E niente, mi ricordo il fatto che una scheggia no, ha proprio preso mia mamma qui sulla spalla. Non c’era il sangue però c’era via la pelle, si vedeva proprio la carne rossa. Quel fatto lì la vedo ancora adesso, però c’è l’ho davanti agli occhi ancora ecco.
FA: Quindi si ricorda dove eravate più o meno. Quindi eravate lì nel.
I: Eravamo lì vicino alla cascina, fuori, fuori appena dalla cascina ecco.
FA: Quindi è arrivata fino, fino a lì.
I: Sì, sì, sì, eh, le schegge delle bombe, sì, sono arrivate fino a lì, ecco. L’altro, proprio dei bombardamenti no, non mi ricordo, ecco.
FA: Perché comunque c’era una certa distanza, ecco.
I: Sì. Anche. Ma quello lì c’è stato anche quello più che mi ricordo più grande, come bombardamento, no, che hanno buttato giu il ponte lì.
FA: E poi è andata, ma è andata in ospedale o?
I: No, no, eh sì, non c’era neanche, non c’era neanche la bicicletta per andare in ospedale. Niente. No perché difatti non è che era grave, era via solo un po’ di pelle che si vedeva, la carne rossa, eh.
FA: Graffiata insomma.
I: Sì, ecco, così. D’altri fatti, ecco proprio di bombardamenti proprio no, non mi ricordo neanche, magari me l’hanno raccontato anche i genitori, ecco.
FA: Lei invece, signora [omitted], dove abitava?
I: Io abitavo a Samperone, vicino alla Certosa. Lì hanno lanciato una bomba però non c’è stato nessun morto, praticamente, perché è caduto in campagna. Però io, di fronte a me, alla distanza di cento metri, avevo l’accampamento dei tedeschi e in casa mia mio papà era in guerra, però mia mamma aveva in casa il papà e un fratello che doveva essere militare. Quindi eravamo molto, molto, molto osservati. [phone rings] Quindi eravamo un po’ sotto pressione perché avevamo in casa questo zio.
FA: Esatto.
I: E dall’accampamento, la nostra porta dava proprio sull’accampamento dei tedeschi. Quindi loro ci vedevano in casa. Infatti un mattino mio zio è sceso dalla camera, si è messo lì per mettere le scarpe e l’han visto. Quindi hanno fatto irruzione in casa, cercavano il marito, a mia mamma dicevano il marito. Lei li faceva vedere le lettere e via, dicendo che il marito era, loro hanno visto e mio papà perché aveva in casa anche il papà,
FA: Ah già.
I: Ma loro han capito che poteva. Quindi sono andati su in camera, hanno con le baionette trafitto tutti i letti,
FA: Insomma hanno fatto un disastro.
I: un macello, non l’han trovato. Non l’han trovato poi hanno fatto, c’erano i camion che portavano via quelli che c’erano a casa non trovando per loro un uomo c’era, hanno portato via mio nonno. Però essendo vecchio il giorno dopo l’han fatto venire a casa. Ricordo dei bombardamenti per noi era come se fossero lì, erano quelli di Milano, quando bombardarono Milano, che eravamo fuori nei rifugi, sembrava proprio però non eravamo proprio lì.
FA: Dove, dove vi rifugiavate?
I: Eh, c’era un campo che avevano fatto un rifugio sottoterra, sì. Andavamo tutti lì fuori in campagna, avevano fatto un rifugio, c’era un campo. Per dire, uno era qui, poi c’era come una collinetta, l’altro era più là, lì sotto avevano scavato, fatto i rifugi e noi, quando suonava l’allarme, scappavamo tutti lì.
FA: E si ricorda come era costruito il rifugio, cioè, avevan scavato e han fatto un
I: Sì, sì, proprio scavato e noi andavamo tutti lì.
FA: E han messo le travi in legno.
I: No, no, una buca.
I: Una buca.
FA: Era giusto un buco.
I: Un buco. Era sostenuto perché era un campo alto e uno basso.
FA: Ah, ok.
I: Cioè, essendo quello lì più alto, fatto la buca e noi riuscivamo.
FA: Un terrapieno.
I: Ecco, dentro e uscire fuori.
FA: Ho capito. E l’allarme, si ricorda dov’è che era l’allarme, era in paese, a Samperone?
I: L’allarme, suonava l’allarme, dire da dove suonava non lo so. E c’è stato un bombardamento sulla statale, da Samperone alla statale, lì da Pavia c’è un chilometro e mezzo. Hanno bombardato un camion, però io non mi ricordo. C’è stato un bombardamento col camion.
FA: Ehm, un’ultima domanda. Cosa vi ricordate di Pippo?
I: Pippo era tremendo.
I: Pippo, posso dire, noi tre bambini, con l’accampamento fuori, ci faceva fare la pìpì in casa, per terra sul pavimento. Perché quand’era sera, bisognava che ci fosse tutto buio, noi avevamo l’accampamento lì, non potevamo aprire la porta, andare fuori a fare la pìpì, dovevamo farla in casa sul pavimento. I bagni in casa non c’erano, si andava fuori. E l’accampamento è come, ecco, questo è la porta, e lì dove c’è la mura, c’era l’accampamento.
I: Non c’era la luce però. Io non avevo la luce.
I: No, la candela. E magari la spegni.
I: No, no, io mi ricordo che avevamo la luce, sì, sì.
I: Una piccola lampadina.
I: Io mi ricordo che c’avevamo la lampadina. La lucerna non mi ricordo.
F: No, no, no, io la lucerna che mettiamo sul tubo e sotto c’era il petrolio, no.
FA: Esatto
I: Quando si sentiva Pippo, mia mamma [backgroud noise] la ciapava un strass nero , no la n’andava in gireva insima[unclear]
FA: e lo copriva.
I: E lo copriva. Lui andava.
I: Ma noi, noi la luce l’ho mai vista da [background voice]
I: Ricordo io, la luce l’avevamo, per quel che mi ricordo.
F: Noi facevamo con la lucerna. Con la lucerna, disevan la lucerna, c’era il petrolio. Poi avevo un tubo di sopra perché c’era fumo no. E niente, eran quello lì. Mio papà gaveva mis du caden se no comel fai. El leva tacà su li, era una lucerna.
I: Io dei tre ero la più piccola
F: non ho mai visto.
I: di tre figli ero la più piccola.
FA: Va bene allora. Va bene, vi ringraziamo allora per.
I: Niente. Bene. Poi se va bene.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with three survivors of the Po valley bombings
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
The informants remember wartime hardships endured near Pavia and Piacenza. Several stories recalled: a farmhouse being thoroughly searched for partisans, children questioned, people injured by shell splinters, a makeshift dugout used as shelter, improvised lighting at home, strafing, Germans looking for deserters and American troops giving away crackers to the children. They tell how the menacing presence of 'Pippo' forced them to relieve themselves inside on the floor. Mentions the bombings of Milan as seen from the countryside where they were.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Filippo Andi
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-13
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:13:33 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAn00974-170413
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Piacenza
Italy--Pavia
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
home front
Pippo
Resistance
strafing
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1166/11731/PTrappSV1602.2.jpg
443e0c534de38a79f813a6eb5cd84076
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1166/11731/PTrappSV1601.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1166/11731/ATrappSV160405.1.mp3
4f41b08244813c9ff4f04dad3fb96c65
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Trapp, Sylvia
Sylvia Vera Trapp
S V Trapp
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Sylvia Trapp (nee Needham) (b. 1922, 488420 Royal Air Force) and four photographs. She served as a wireless operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force at RAF Waddington.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Sylvia Trapp and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Trapp, SV
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Ok, so today is Tuesday the 5th of April and this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command Centre and today I am with Sylvia Trapp and we are at Sylvia’s home in Mansfield. And Sylvia was a WAAF so we are going to get Sylvia’s story now. And just to start, no, go.
ST: I wasn’t Trapp until the end of the war.
AM: Right, I’ll get your maiden, well, right, you tell me then if we start off with your maiden name.
ST: Needham.
AM: Leedham.
ST: Needham.
AM: Needham. Needham. Ok. And we’ve already got your date of birth so we know that you are ninety four.
ST: Ninety four.
AM: Ninety four and can you tell me where you were born, Sylvia?
ST: I was born in Mansfield, 216 Victoria Street. Mansfield.
AM: Right, there we are. What did your parents do?
ST: My dad was a miner. My mum, before she was married, worked at the Lawn Mills.
AM: Right. And what, did you have brothers or sisters?
ST: I’ve got, I had two brothers and two sisters. My brother, John Thomas was the oldest, and he worked at Hermitage Hosiery factory, on Hermitage Lane. And my next brother Fred, he worked, he was a butcher, [unclear] the butcher on Regents Street and my sister Eirene she worked at the Hermitage Hosiery factory and me, I worked, oh, I went, Hosiery Mills, I was in the sales office [unclear]. But before, the war started, I worked at the Quartex, up Sutton Road, a big hosiery mills that was owned by Germans. And when the war started, they turned it into a munition place.
AM: Right.
ST: And that’s where I worked, yeah.
Am: Where did you go to school?
ST: I went to Moor Lane School and then up to High Oakham School.
AM: And how old would you be when you left?
ST: How old, fifteen when I left.
AM: Fifteen?
ST: Yeah.
AM: Right.
ST: Then I went to work at the hosiery mills.
AM: Yeah. What did you do there?
ST: I was in the quality control.
AM: Right. Checking the stockings.
ST: No, jumpers.
AM: Oh, it was jumpers. Alright.
ST: And I didn’t tell you, the Germans, when the munition came to the Quartex, the Germans were taken away, the boss was taken away and they were on the way to being deported to Canada and the boat was sunk by a U-boat. So after that
AM: But you were there from being fifteen?
ST: I’m trying to think, I
AM: Cause
ST: Yes, I worked at the Quartex from being fifteen. Then when I grew up to twenty I, my brothers had been called up, Tom went first, then Fred, then my sister went and she went into the Air Force and I asked if I could go into the Air Force and they wouldn’t let me. But I did. They wouldn’t let me join my sister where she was, they kept us apart and I went into the Air Force and we had to meet, we had to meet this officer on Nottingham Station and there was about ten of us, all met on the station and they took us down to Innsworth in Gloucester and then we did the basic training and we had to sit these written exams, and everybody was being allocated and then he told me to stand on one side and there was about six of us had to stand on one side, and we kept wandering, what on earth are we going to do? Anyway he came to us and he says, I’ve chosen you because I think I can rely on you. As you know, we are losing men and they are getting very short, and I’m going to put you onto a man’s job, he says, and I put my faith in you, that you will be able to do it. Then we were allocated to, I was sent to Bottesford, was sent to Bottesford and we, no, no, that’s wrong, I was, we were sent to Compton Bassett and we learned all about radio, how to send messages and code words and things like that and we did about five weeks there and then went up to Blackpool to learn the Morse code and I was there from, I can’t remember how long I was there but we learned the Morse code and how to print, you know, the messages and what have ye and after that I was sent to Bottesford and from Bottesford I stayed there for a while and then I was moved to Waddington.
US: You know Bottesford, was that the Bomber Command base? Were you actually on a base?
ST: Yeah. Isn’t it a base now?
US: Bottesford, no, it’s just fields. So, you were actually sent to Bottesford?
ST: Yes.
US: As a wireless
ST: Wireless operator.
US: Operator.
ST: Yeah. You know, Bottesford is not on the map now, then?
US: Well, Bottesford is on the map, but it’s not a Bomber Command base, it’s not an RAF base anymore.
ST: Oh, ok.
US: So, what happened when you got to Bottesford, obviously there were Lancasters or Stirling bombers flying from there.
ST: Ah, there were Stirling, yeah.
US: Stirling. Yeah.
ST: There weren’t Lancasters and then we were sent to Waddington and I think that was, was that an Australian base? I can’t remember. There were Australians.
US: 44 Squadron. Yeah. There could have been Australians there.
ST: Anyway I was there and
AM: Can I ask you about the training. You know when you said you did the training, and first on the radios and the Morse code, what was it like doing that?
ST: Oh, you know, I was a bit, I was really scared going into the Air Force. I’ve never been away from home before in my life and anyway, it was, no, I thought I was determined to prove to him that I could do it so I
AM: I’m on this job.
ST: Yeah. Yeah, I thought, if they can do it, we can do it, sort of thing.
AM: So, what was it like, how did you start to learn how to, the wireless?
ST: Wait, that was down in Compton Bassett.
AM: Compton Bassett, yeah.
ST: Yeah, no, we had classes, we had to march to classes, used to play these [unclear] marches, you know, we marched to class and but they were mixed classes, mixed, and yeah, we, they taught us how to sort radios out and
AM: What do you mean by sort them out? You mean, built them into bits and put them back together?
ST: Yeah, if there was any wires lose to solder them on, you know, we were taught all that and then, I think I can’t remember how long we were there but it must have been weeks. And then once we were able to do that, they sent us up to Blackpool and
AM: Where did you stay in Blackpool? In digs?
ST: Private digs, you know, like boarding houses and she was very strict, we had to be in at ten o’clock at night. Well, you know the ballroom where we used to go dancing and what [unclear] and there was every nationality in the world, out of Europe and everywhere and so
AM: What did you get up to then?
ST: So, we used to take it in turns to, if anybody didn’t go they would unlatch the window down, one of the windows so we would get into the window [laughs] and, yeah, she was very strict she was. But I guess she had to be, you know
AM: Were you all girls in your boarding house?
ST: Yeah, we were all girls. Yes.
AM: What was it, what was the ball dancing like then?
ST: Oh, it was marvellous, you had that many partners when you were dancing, you know. You never did a dance with one person, you were excused and then next one.
AM: They cut in all the time.
ST: Oh, we had a lovely time there, yeah.
AM: What did you, did you have to go in uniform or could you put a dress on?
ST: No, I went in uniform.
AM: In uniform. Smart girls in uniform.
ST: Yeah. I don’t think, I don’t think we were allowed to go in
AM: I don’t know
ST: I can’t remember that. Or perhaps I didn’t have any [layghs]
AM: Maybe not. Did you have to do marching up and down the front? I know the men did.
ST: Yeah, that’s right, yeah. [unclear] uniform. Yeah, we had a great time there.
AM: And you said this was the first time you had been away from home as well.
ST: Yeah. When I was down in Gloucester, I wasn’t the only one who cried all time [laughs] but you could hear everybody crying. You know, cause I suppose we all lived in the same boat and. But then, after Blackpool, I really enjoyed that and I, when we passed our, we had to sit these exams and pass them and
AM: Was it, when you said sitting the exams, was it a written exam or did you have to literally put a radio together and
ST: Oh, we did that, yes. After we’d been taught, we did that, yes. We had to do that. It sort of got into me then, you know, I knew I’d got to do this sort of thing though. That was great.
AM: Did anybody not manage it? Could you not
ST: Yeah, yeah, quite a lot, yeah.
AM: So what happened to them?
ST: They were put to other jobs. Maybe in the cook house or driving or something like that. Yeah, they [unclear] dropped down, yeah. After we, when we got to Blackpool, we learned the Morse, you know, it was, we were there way to go at eight o’clock in the morning, we’d have Morse all day, it was headphones on and in fact when we used to go home on the train, every time I passed a station, I’d been doing it in Morse. I must admit, I began to enjoy life after that, yeah. And then, after, Bottesford, I guess, then Waddington, and then, oh, I know, then I was in the air traffic control, you know, in the air traffic [unclear]
AM: At Waddington.
ST: And there was Canadians, they were all Canadians and the sergeant Canadian in charge said to me one day, I’d like you to come with me, as you are going to learn something new today so we went into this great, this hangar, you know how big hangars are, and they’d fixed up, there was sort of a line, oh, on the floor was a big map of Newark and Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire and the rivers were all in like silver foil and the bush, the trees, they’d made like little trees, so that you looked at the land from up there sort of thing and they’d got this wire going along and this machine, supposed to be the aircraft I should think
AM: In the air.
ST: And as it went over the, they were able to see what they were bombing, if you know, you could [unclear]
AM: Like a bird’s-eye view.
ST: Yes. That’s right, yeah. And that was interesting but there were all aircrew and me and this sergeant, I was, I think I was scared, you know, petrified, cause he asked me to switch something on and I couldn’t move, where is it? I forgot. And, because he’d showed me but I forgot and then this nice young Scottish man came and he did it for me.
AM: I’ll see about the Scottish man in a minute. Just, let’s go back to the beginning of Waddington. How did, so you’ve done your radio training, you’ve done your Morse training, how did they then decide where they were going to send you? Did you just, were you just told where you were going?
ST: We were just told, yeah.
AM: So you were told Waddington.
ST: Yeah.
AM: How did you get to Waddington then?
ST: Do you know, I can’t remember.
AM: No?
ST: I guess they took as there, yeah.
AM: Yeah? And what was it like when you got there? What did you think when you saw it? How did it look like?
ST: Strange. We had to go up a spiral staircase to, you know, up into the air traffic control [unclear].
US: So you operated out of the control tower?
ST: Yeah.
US: Were you actually talking to the bomber crews?
ST: No, no, no. They, as I say, they are all Canadians and
AM: Yeah, describe what you actually did in the tower.
ST: What we did, I just sat at this table with earphones on and received messages and sent messages.
AM: Received them from where? From whom?
ST: From the aircraft.
AM: From the aircraft.
US: So you didn’t [unclear] Morse code?
AM: So you’re receiving the message in Morse
ST: Yeah. Yeah.
AM: And you’re translating it and
ST: I didn’t translate it, I just passed it on.
AM: No. You just passed it on. By radio.
ST: Well, to the sergeant in the room. The sergeant and officers in the room. Mostly it was the sergeant that dealt with us and
US: So the aircraft would send a message back to Waddington in Morse
ST: I would take it down
US: So and the radio operator in the plane is tapping out a message in Morse, which you receive and then it’s passed on to be deciphered. So [unclear] plane
AM: So, did you know what the messages were saying or did you not have time to even think about that?
ST: Not a clue
AM: How long were your shifts? What were the shifts like?
ST: Eight till four. Four till midnight. Midnight till eight.
AM: And what were your digs like?
ST: Oh, we were in a hut, there was about, I don’t’ know, about ten of us I think in this hut, yeah.
AM: All girls.
ST: We had our own bed space and our little cabinet, you know. Yeah.
AM: And what about eating. Where did you eat? Did you eat with the men or were you kept separate?
ST: We were quite good, we were separate, you know when all the ground crew went in, we went separate and we seemed to get nicer meals [laughs].
AM: How many of you would there be in comparison to the men? Ish.
ST: Gosh, well, up in the air traffic control there were just two of us and about six men.
AM: Right.
ST: And I never met anybody else after that, you know, we just, unless you went to the dance at night, when I was on the right shift, we would go to the dance.
AM: Right. Where was the dance?
ST: In the
AM: On the base.
ST: On the base. Yes.
AM: On the base. So, I imagine there were a lot more men than women at the dance.
ST: Oh, hundreds more, yeah.
AM: What was that like?
ST: [unclear] Four of us to the whole base sort of thing.
AM: What was that?
ST: There was the cooks [unclear] everybody.
AM: Yeah. I bet you danced off your feet, weren’t you?
ST: Well, it was lovely, yeah.
AM: It was lovely [laughs].
ST: I had never been to a dancing. [laughs]
AM: And you mentioned to me that you’d actually been in an aircraft, what
ST: We used to climb in to see if, when they came back, if we had to go and check the radio, see that it was [unclear]
AM: When you say we, you girls from the control tower.
ST: Yes. We went, yeah.
AM: So, what was that like then, climbing into a plane [unclear]?
ST: There were no steps, you know, we had, I don’t how I got in, I used to hang onto things that somebody had thrown in [laughs]. I was only about seven stone seven when, you know, I was only little and I could never manage up there. Anyway it was fun and we had fun.
AM: You had fun. So tell me about this Scottish person then.
ST: Oh well, yeah.
AM: From the beginning.
ST: Oh well, we were, oh I told you, we watched this thing work and take pictures
AM: Ok, the bird’s-eye view of the map
ST: And then we were dismissed and we went to the naffy and the sergeant went into the naffy and then this nice young airman came in and said, come and sit with me, would you like a coffee? And I said yes please and he says, come and sit over here with me and that was the beginning of romance [laughs], yeah. We went on the bus into Lincoln and he proposed to me and I bought a ring there and everything. We went to the jewellers and there were no rings there for me, only about three earrings in the whole shop [laughs] but there were a lot
AM: How long did this romance last before you were married? Because he would be going on operations all this time.
ST: Oh yeah.
US: What was his name, Sylvia?
ST: I only knew him six months before
AM: What was his name?
ST: But we were married [unclear] for our fiftieth wedding anniversary. We went to New Zealand and
AM: What was his name?
ST: Harold
AM: Harold
ST: Harold James Trapp. Yeah.
AM: So what was it like then, when you first met him and he got you a coffee and then you went straight to the jewellers, but it must have been a bit in between when you went to dances and stuff like that? What was it like when he was going off on operations?
ST: Ah, not very good.
AM: No?
ST: You used to pray that they came back.
US: Can you remember what squadron he flew with?
ST: [unclear]
US: What did he do on the plane? Was he?
ST: He was a bomb aimer.
US: Bomb aimer.
AM: Was the bomb aimer. But he obviously came through it. If you were married for fifty years.
ST: Yeah. Thank goodness, yeah.
AM: Watched him go out and watched him come back.
ST: Yeah. We used to wait, [unclear] we used to wait for him coming back, yeah [unclear]
AM: So, when did you get married? Did you get married during the war or?
ST: December the 4th 1945.
AM: Alright, so just after the end.
ST: Yeah. 1945, yeah.
AM: How long did you stay in the WAAFs for?
ST: Well, the year after we got married I was expecting [laughs] so I came home. Our daughter was born.
AM: You must have lots of other stories, things that have happened. Come on, let’s hear some of them.
ST: [laughs] well, another thing. They used to, there was a firm from Mansfield that repaired the runways, kept the runways in track. Well, Mansfield was my hometown, so, I got talking to and, I can’t remember, it must be when they went at four o’clock at night, when I was eight till four and I used to get a lift home and then come back with him next morning and [laughs]
AM: Were you allowed to do that or was that a secret?
ST: I don’t think so, no, they didn’t know [laughs]. No, they didn’t know. But it was handy, you know, it was quite handy, I knew they [unclear] went straight to Mansfield, came back the next day and my friend, oh, I had a friend in the hut named Pearl and she used to look after my, you know, if come round
AM: She just [unclear]
ST: She was just standing in for me [laughs]
AM: [laughs] Did you do, another WAAF I talked to, Bassie, she talked to me about everybody about the WAAFs doing each other’s hair and makeup and stuff. Did you do that or were you not into?
ST: I didn’t do it, I didn’t use, you know, we just rolled our hair up and we had to roll it up
AM: Yeah, and [unclear]
ST: Grips [unclear] cause [unclear] straight, you know,
AM: Roll [unclear]
ST: I think [unclear] a lot of makeup in those days. No, I wasn’t into that.
AM: No, Bassie definitely [unclear]
ST: Pearl and I, we used to, perhaps go for a walk, she came from Coalville in Leicester and we were really good friends straight away, you know, and
AM: Was she a radio operator as well?
ST: Yeah.
AM: Yeah.
ST: Yeah. But she was sent to a different place after a while, she was sent to
AM: Were you ad Waddington the whole time?
ST: Yeah.
AM: Yeah. You stayed at Waddington. So you get to know lots of the men and obviously you had [unclear] you get to know lots of the different.
ST: Yeah, yeah, but, you know.
AM: Did you go out with him and his crew?
ST: No, no.
AM: Did you not?
ST: No, I didn’t, no. Cause I say, I kept nipping home to my mum [laughs]
AM: What did your mum and dad thing about having two dancers in one?
ST: My dad died, [unclear] he died, that’s why I kept going home.
AM: Ok.
ST: She liked it when [unclear] but she used to do my washing [unclear] the next time I did [laughs]
US: What happened to your two brothers? You said you had two brothers. Did they?
ST: Oh Gosh, the oldest brother was stationed, he went to India, he went to India, but my
US: In the Royal Air Force.
ST: No, in the army.
US: He was in the army.
ST: He wasn’t fighting, he was
AM: Engineers?
ST: Yeah.
AM: Royal engineers?
ST: And then my younger brother, we never saw him for five years. He just got married because like the dough and he went into the army, he was put into the Essex regiment and he was sent abroad and we never saw him again for five years, never came home, he was in the Eight Army.
US: Right.
ST: And never saw him, he was so different when he came back. Nobody waving [unclear], when he came back he was bald and spoke a different, you know, sort of a different accent.
AM: A different accent. They both did come home, though.
ST: They came back, yeah and she had a baby while he was away. He’d never seen his dad for five years. Never didn’t even
AM: When you said he was away for five years I thought you were going to say he was a prisoner of war. But he wasn’t. He was just far away in the army.
ST: He was in the Eight Army. They just moved them place to place.
US: In the desert, probably in the western desert and then Italy and [unclear]
ST: Yeah. You see
AM: Too far to come back.
ST: Professionals you know, they wouldn’t let them come back, they kept using them until
AM: Yeah.
US: Your sister, was your sister?
ST: My sister? She went near Sheffield and she was a parachute packer [laughs], she was ok, yeah. When she got married, her husband [unclear] and he was sent to Norway fighting, they were fighting in Norway, their regiment, yeah.
AM: Crickey!
ST: So, I don’t know how my mum, I don’t know how she [unclear]
AM: [unclear] especially If your dad had died, early in the war did your dad die? Or did he die before that?
ST: ’36 he died.
AM: So before the war
ST: 1942
AM: But you said he was a miner.
ST: Kidney, kidney trouble.
AM: Yeah.
US: So it was good that your mum had you in Waddington
ST: Yeah,
US: [unclear]
ST: [unclear] that’s why I kept going home
AM: Well to [unclear] four children away,
ST: Yeah.
AM: This was unheard of before the war
ST: Yes it was and she tried to get me to stay at home, she tried to get me out of it and I wouldn’t listen to her.
AM: No.
ST: And then I tried to go with my sister and they wouldn’t let me [unclear]
AM: They wouldn’t let you do that. But all in all you sound like you enjoyed most of it.
ST: Oh, I did, I did. [unclear] different, if I hadn’t gone I was really very shy and never mixed much but that did me good going in the Air Force, it really did, yeah. And I spread my wings, you know, I’ve been everywhere now, so.
AM: Tell me a little bit about what, you met Harold and Harold was in the, a bomb aimer and obviously you got married in 1945 and then you had your [unclear] by having your daughter and what did Harold do at the end? Cause how long was it before he was demobbed?
ST: What was it, he was before he demobbed [unclear]
AM: Yeah, how long, because quite a lot of them went for another [unclear], weren’t they, before demobbing.
ST: He didn’t come out till ’47 because they were bringing VIPs back from Far East, you know. Yeah, they were bringing
AM: Where did you live then, if he was still in the RAF? While he was still there in ’46 and ’47?
ST: Where?
US: Did you go back to your mum’s or?
ST: I went to my mum’s.
AM: You went back to your mum’s.
ST: And then I went up to Scotland to live cause he worked for the electricity board and they were building a big hydroelectric scheme on Loch Lomond and so we moved round to, lived on Loch Lomond side for about three years. And then it was very lonely [unclear] so I wanted to come home to my mum so we got a transfer down to Mansfield, yeah. So
AM: Right. And then, because you were telling me you’ve lived all over the world, how did you end up?
ST: Yeah, the same crew as Harold was Joe Bradshaw, he was a flight engineer, and he was an Irishman, my husband was Scottish and they were buddies, you know, friends, and in fact he was my daughters godfather when she was born but he went back to Ireland, then he went to Canada, he emigrated to Canada and he met a lady there and got married in Canada. And then he worked for a car industry or something and he got a chance for a job down in San Diego in America so he was always saying, why don’t you come over here, this is the land of opportunity, so we did [Laughs]. We, first of all, my daughter went over for a holiday and she met a young man while she was there and she was a schoolteacher she had got [unclear] and she wrote and said, mum, I’m getting married and she came back, gave a notice and went back. So, then we went over to see her in San Diego and a younger daughter and her husband went as well so he liked it in San Diego, so he got, Joe got him a job in San Diego so they went over to San Diego, so I was living, we were living in a little [unclear] there and [unclear] my husband retired, he was sixty five and he said, we may as well go, so we packed up and went. So we were all in San Diego which is, have you ever been there?
AM: No.
ST: Paradise there. I don’t know why I left. And daughter and husband lost his job in San Diego and his mum lived in Burbank near Los Angeles so they went back and then my youngest daughter, he wasn’t getting very much money and he was offered a better job in New Jersey so they went over to New Jersey and we were left in San Diego so then we moved up further up California to Simi Valley, where that’s where my oldest daughter was, up at Simi Valley and we bought a house there and we live there and I’m twenty six years there.
AM: Wonderful. In retirement.
ST: In retirement. It was wonderful.
AM: You sound like you’ve had a lovely life.
ST: Yes, I have.
AM: You have a lovely life.
ST: And it’s while we were in San Diego that it was our fiftieth wedding anniversary and I said to my daughter, we don’t want any, we don’t want a party because all the family is in England. I said, we are going away, we are going by ourselves and we are going on a tour around New Zealand, cause we are doing bus tours, you know. So, we went and booked and we went, well, on December the fourth, that was our wedding anniversary. We got on, this coach, we were on the same bus and there were people from all over, you know, South Africa, Holland, everywhere, on this coach and we got on and everybody started singing happy anniversary to us [laughs]. So I said to the bus driver, how did you know? Cause we never said anything. And he says, a little bird told me that. So I think we went to see those hot things
AM: Springs.
ST: Yeah, hot springs and we went to see them and when we got back and went into the hotel and dinner, dinner was late that night he said, so went down for dinner. When we got into the dining room, it was decorated [unclear] happy anniversary.
AM: Wonderful.
ST: My daughter, my oldest daughter had sent a fax over, cause there were faxes then
AM: Yeah. The emails now, but faxes then.
ST: Sent a fax to the hotel. I don’t know if she sent money but there was the biggest wedding cake, three tier wedding cake and you just couldn’t believe it, [unclear] I just wanted a quiet
AM: A quite wedding
ST: We didn’t want to, no. [file missing] And I hadn’t asked for leave and I got two weeks at the same time and married December the fourth and we travelled, my mum and my sister and me, we travelled up to Glasgow by train which was full of troops, all, you know. It took as about eleven hours to get to Glasgow but when we got to Glasgow we’ve got to get to Gourock to get the ferry over, so we got to Gourock, it was dark, pitch black, not a thing and ferries had stopped running because it was gale, the gale blowing and I thought, what do we do now? So we stood there in the dark and I just didn’t know what to do and this American came over and he said, where are you heading for? I said, Dunoon. He says, I’ll take you. And there was in the Clyde of Dunoon there was a big submarine base, you know, American submarines and some of the crews had gone into Glasgow for a night out and he was, got the liberty boat waiting to take him home [laughs]. He says, I’ll take you across, well, there’s my mum, me and my sister and the gale blowing and we are going up and down, my mother was ever so sick, she says, I’ll never come here again, never again, she said. Anyway, got to Dunoon, and he got a car, they were allowed petrol, you know, and he came and met me, I phoned him and he came and met me. And then I got into trouble for not going to look for a hotel but we couldn’t see, it was pitch black, you know and anyway. Got married on the Tuesday and on the, on the Tuesday, maybe next day, Harold had booked a sleeper down to London, cause Harold’s sister had married a sailor and was living in Portsmouth. So we got on this sleeper and we went down to London but we had two bunks, one on top and then [unclear] me, if two army officers, they come in and [laughs]
AM: So that was your honeymoon.
ST: That was my honeymoon night. I got two army officers, my husband up there and me down here. Anyway we got to his sister’s and my leave was off so I sit down, I’m not going back, I’m not going back, I said. So he says, you’ll have to go back, I said, no, I’m not, you know. Anyway, we got a phone call from his mum and then [unclear] police had gone up to Dunoon for me [laughs]. So, I thought, well, I better go back, I said, I’ll get my husband in trouble, you know, you’ll get worse trouble [unclear]
AM: You were still in at this point.
ST: So, he took me back, he took me, we went back and I thought, oh God, I’m going to go to prison or something [laughs]. Anyway, I went in and it was, commanding officer was a woman and she came round and she put an arm round my shoulder and she says, you know, my dear, I would have done exactly the same [laughs].
AM: Brilliant.
ST: So, apart from having military police after me, I really [unclear] [laughs].
AM: [laughs], so, but all the way up to Dunoon?
ST: Yeah.
AM: Which is a long way [unclear] west coast of Scotland. And all the way back to Portsmouth.
ST: Yeah.
AM: Crickey! I knew there were stories in you.
ST: [laughs] you didn’t care in those days, did you? It could have been his last leave.
AM: He’d gone through the war, yeah, and he was still flying.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Sylvia Trapp
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Annie Moody
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-04-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
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ATrappSV160405
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Pending revision of OH transcription
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00:38:17 audio recording
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eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Sylvia was born in Mansfield where her father was a miner and her mother had worked at Lawns Mills. She had two brothers and a sister. Sylvia was 15 when she left school to work at the hosiery mills and recalls the German manager being deported. She joined the WAAF and completed basic training at RAF Innesworth. Away from home for the first time, she cried a lot.
She was selected for wireless training and trained at RAF Compton Bassett and Blackpool, where she used to go dancing. As a wireless operator Sylvia was posted to RAF Bottesford and then RAF Waddington, working shifts in the Air Traffic Control tower. She also had to check the aircraft radios.
Sylvia's accommodation hut had ten beds and on many evenings, she was able to get a lift home to Mansfield and back with a contractor. At RAF Waddington, she met and fell in love with Harold, a bomb aimer and says it was hard to watch him depart on operations. But he survived and they married when the war ended and they had two daughters.
In 1947 the family moved to Scotland for three years but Sylvia found it very lonely so Harold transferred to Mansfield.
Harold's flight engineer emigrated to North America after the war and was always suggesting they do the same. Sylvia's daughters both went first and then, when Harold retired, he and Sylvia went to California
Sylvia says they celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary in New Zealand and then recalls how she had spent her honeymoon on a train to Glasgow with two army men, before travelling all the way down to Portsmouth, where she became absent without leave. Worried that she might be imprisoned, she returned to RAF Waddington where her WAAF commanding officer took sympathy on her.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Andy Fitter
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Mansfield
Scotland
Scotland--Loch Lomond
United States
California
California--San Diego
California--Simi Valley
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1945-12-04
1946
1947
Absent Without Leave
aircrew
ground personnel
love and romance
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Bottesford
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Innesworth
RAF Waddington
training
wireless operator
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/921/11529/APescottSM171018.1.mp3
42ca6713ac5e82b8b008ab682176172e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lawson, Homer
Harold Lawson
H Lawson
Description
An account of the resource
Ten items. An oral history interview with Susanne Pescott about her father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Lawson DFC (b. 1921, 1544881, 177469 Royal Air Force), his log book, photographs and album. He flew operations as a navigator with 10 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Susanne Pescott and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Lawson, HA
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SP: This is Susanne Pescott of International Bomber Command Centre, talking today about my own father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Homer Lawson DFC. Today is the 18th of October 2017. My father, Harold Arthur Lawson was born 24th of August 1921 in Salford, Manchester. His parents were Arthur and Emilia Lawson and Arthur was a piano teacher. He also had two brothers, Arthur and Stanley. He went to Gresham Street School and was an altar boy at the Church of Ascension in Salford. After school, he went to Grammar School and worked for Acme Welders as an engineer before he signed up in 1941. He was aged twenty and he signed up at the recruitment centre in Padgate. I’ve actually got the letter that was sent from the Air Ministry, I think it’s really interesting that in this letter dated 22nd of September 1941, in the end paragraph it says, in wishing you success in the service of your choice, I would like to add this, the honour of the Royal Air Force is in your hands, our country’s safety and the final overthrow of the powers of evil now arrayed against us depend upon you and your comrades. You will be given the best aircraft and armament that the factories of America and Britain can produce, equip yourself with knowledge and how to use them. I can’t imagine what a twenty-year-old, his reaction would be to that, but I should imagine it’s quite daunting to have all that pressure suddenly seen. So, he started his training around the end of 1941 and he was trained to be a navigator and the training was at Scarborough, many crews were based at hotels in around Scarborough at this time, the Grand Hotel, which is still there today, was where a lot of the exams were carried out, not sure the exact hotel my father stayed at, but it would’ve been around that area. His nickname, as I said in the entry, was Harold Homer Lawson, he was nicknamed Homer and that links in to his role as navigator, as he was always seen as bringing the crew home. After his initial training, he moved to number 9 AFU in January 1943 to start training on Ansons and this was at Llandwrog in North Wales, which is now Caernarfon Airport. I think he did well to survive the initial training there as there were very high losses during this time on the Ansons due to its close proximity to the Snowdonian mountains. After there, he moved up to Scotland to 19 OTU which was Forres in Kinloss and here he met up with his Canadian pilot who was Johnny Hewitt who actually ended up being a lifelong friend as they kept in contact after the war as well. While he was here, they practiced lots of things, like cross country training, fight affiliation, high- and low-level bombing missions and foundation flying and formation flying and on here he was on both Ansons and Whitleys. In 1943 they were moved to a conversion unit, it was number 1663 and this was based at RAF Rufforth in Yorkshire and Yorkshire was where he was going to remain to carry out all his operations. Here he met his magnificent Halifax bombers, this is the plane he would complete all his operational tours on. And finally, in November ’43 he was posted to 10 Squadron and this was at RAF Melbourne in Yorkshire. 10 Squadron known as Shiny Ten, and completed quite a huge number of operations from there. His crew whom he met and crewed up with were Johnny, who I mentioned, Johnny Hewitt, he was Canadian, he was the pilot, my dad was the navigator, the bomb aimer was Erwin Bayne, known as Paddy, and he was from Ireland and, F Wheaton, I don’t know his first name, was the wireless op, Sam Smith was the mid upper gunner, and known as Titch to the crew, S Leonard, again I don’t know his first name, was the flight engineer, and M Grey, another Canadian, was the tail gunner and he was nicknamed Blondie. So, it was a bit of a baptism of fire for the very first ops, I can only imagine how the crew felt when they were told it was going to be Berlin, so the 29th of December they at 5.10 set off and that is 1943 to complete the first operation and it is part of the Battle for Berlin. So during this operation, they encountered and shot down a Junkers 88 and then returned to Melbourne 7 hours and twenty minutes later and found that the tail plane had a lot of flak holes in it. This was really to set the tone really for most of their tour of ops as they had several more encounters with German planes and shot down a further two during the thirty-eight ops. So, after the initial baptism of fire, it went a little quite during January and February but again started to get busy in March with several night operations over France, the crew also started to do a lot of minelaying operations, a very different role and quite a challenge for navigators because there weren’t any landmarks and talking to many navigators that have done from around that time, they tended to pick out the navigators who were good because of getting the exact location, so really proud that he was picked out for that. Moved on into April ’44, lots of missions over both Germany and France and that included missions to Essen and Dusseldorf and both of those missions, they were actually caught in searchlights and following an electrical storm on another trip to Karlsruhe they had to land at the emergency airfield at Manston as the engine cut out as they were flying over the east coast. In May the crew were attacked by a fighter over Mantes-Gassicourt so quite a lot of interaction with enemy fighters. But the busiest month [unclear] was June 1944. A lot of mining to start with when, throughout the Hague and then on D-Day, my dad and his crew took off at 2.55am to part, take part on the gun batteries at Mont Fleury, these were overlooking Gold Beach, and this was in preparation for the D-Day landings, his logbooks actually says, the second front started on that actual article. So talking to another veteran, Ken Beard, who was from 10 Squadron, and he set off from Melbourne only three minutes before my dad, so he’s seen exactly the same things, and he said, they weren’t told any details, other than to ensure that they didn’t drop their bombs early, and when they got over the Channel they could see exactly why and that’s because there were hundreds of ships sailing across the Channel at that time. It didn’t stop there on D-Day, they had another operation later that day, and they took off at 22.30 and flew to Saint-Lo where the Germans were based, they had to fly very low at two thousand feet. The rest of the month kept busy, very high activity with a lot more minelaying and started to get some day as well as night operations as well. On the 15th of June, on a trip to [unclear], the plane was once again in combat with the enemy, another Junkers 88, they managed to set his port engine on fire, but the plane cylinder head broke on the return journey making the starboard outer US as it says in my dad’s logbook. It’s worth noting here that the plane they were flying on at this time was a Halifax III, it was known as the Ol’ Ram, it had a fantastic nose art painted on it, which was a picture of a ram smashing three swastikas and painted by one of the groundcrew whilst it was at 10 Squadron. So, the plane was seen as lucky cause it was ZAJ with J for Johnny as the pilot, so they were quite pleased to get that on the majority of their operations. On another raid, on a daylight ops to Noyales on Chausseur, the starboard engine again had problems on the way down in but they carried on on their mission and feathered on return to make it home. You would have thought that might have been enough activity in June but then again, 28th of June, on ops to Blainville the crew had actually three combats on that trip and destroyed one Messerschmitt 210, the logbook actually reads, it hit the deck three minutes after the starboard wing was set on fire, so, a very eventful June which continued into July, at the beginning of July doing three trips over to the V bomb bases at Saint-Martin-L’Hortier, two of these night raids and one day, flak particularly heavy around this installation, the Ol’ Ram, the plane came back from one trip with flak holes in the port tail. I think it must have been quite difficult going on the, on these V bomb trips to Saint-Martin-L’Hortier on one of the flights I know that it’s reported that one plane dropped its bombs on another Halifax squadron and it actually crashed and killed all the crew and on another trip one of 10 Squadron’s own planes was actually shot down, so I can’t imagine having seen that on one trip, the courage they would have to have to go back day after day to the same destination is a very special sort of courage. The Ol’ Ram was hit more by flak on trips to the various railyards and then on the 20th of July the very last ops for the crew was a trip to Blowtrop and here they had a petrol leak on the port inner and the port was US again referred to in my dad’s logbook and the ammo tracks caught fire so a very eventful last trip. So, the crew completed thirty-eight operations and my father, I am very proud to say, was awarded the DFC in November 1944, I’ve got the original press article and that reads, it was given for gallantry and devotion to duty in air operations and actually refers to throughout an exact, throughout an exacting tour of duty, this officer has displayed exceptional ability as a navigator, and cool courage in the face of the enemy, on four occasions his aircraft has been engaged by enemy fighters and in the ensuing air combat three hostile aircraft have been destroyed. So, after they’d finished their operations at Melbourne, they went back to Forres, did more training and flying, this time on Wellingtons, and then ended up back in Yorkshire, at RAF Rufforth at a Conversion Unit. In May ’45 my dad was moved to 77 Squadron and at this point they were based at Full Sutton and he had a new pilot, Flight Officer Pickin and they were on Halifax VIs and then started training on Dakotas and this was ready for preparation to fly them to the Far East to support the Burma campaign. Lots of practice of supply dropping and glider towing and this was done at Broadwell and they finally set off on the 22nd of September 1945 on route to India. The route took them via Libya, Sedam and Yemen into India and then took them from the 22nd of September until they finally arrived at their destination on the 1st of October. October ’45 shows that the main trips they did were around India and the Khyber Pass and supply dropping and bringing troops back. I have a copy of a letter that my dad sent to his pilot, Johnny Hewitt, when he got the, the information that he was going to be sent over to helping the Burma campaign, so I’ll read a little bit out of this, so it just says, I left Rufforth and was posted here, 77 Squadron, ex Elvington, remember the time we all went to Elvington, and that will refer to a time when 10 Squadron had to pick up some planes for an operation and borrowed the ones from 77 Squadron and he also says that he was here on V E Day, didn’t even get one op from here where we are now on transport and I am converting to Dakotas in a couple of months. Talks about training and constantly lectures with the Far East and Burma and tropical diseases and learning about different forms of navigation again on the stars. It says as well to help with being able to navigate by the stars, they’ve wired off the Gee and H2S so that they can only use the stars to navigate. One of the comments he’s put in his letter, says, well, it looks very much that I shall end my life in Burma or some place, you can imagine me under a mosquito net, scratching elephant bites and sweating horse feathers beneath some tropical sun. So, I don’t think he was particularly looking forward to that tour. The logbook continues with lots of daily activities but then on the 22nd of November 1945, the logbook just stops, no idea why cause not like my father [unclear] to leave things unfinished but he has, I know he returned home and was demobbed in late ’46 but no more detail at all. After the war, I know he was taken back by his old employers and worked in engineering all his life, becoming a chief estimate with a company called Acro that then became known as Thomas Store. 1950s he met my mom, Maureen Chilton at Belle Vue Dances which is in Manchester. My father was strict Church of England and my mom came from a Roman Catholic family so you can imagine that wasn’t an easy ride, both sides of the families refused to accept the relationship, so on New Year’s Eve in 1955, my mom slipped out, carrying her wedding shoes and they got married at Manchester Registry Office with one friend and getting a member of public off the street to sign there as witness. And mom and dad went on to become great ballroom dancers winning many medals, so they early started at Belle Vue Dances [unclear] through the rest of their dancing years. Unfortunately on the 12th of September 1975, my dad died very early of a heart attack and he never actually spoken of his war years and the remarkable feats of bravery that he’d shown and really wish we could turn the clock back and hear those stories direct from him and actually you know, let him know how proud I was of him and what he did. I think in a way this is why I’m so privileged to be an oral interviewer for Bomber Command’s Digital Archive, I can hear these stories it makes me realise the sort of activities my dad would’ve been involved in but also to keep them for future generations and let them have the opportunity of listening to a family member recount those stories that I never heard. My research into my dad started about three years ago when I was looking into family history after about a year of research and talked to my brother he asked, would the logbook help? [laughs] Well, clearly that opened up a whole new avenue and it helped immensely. Unfortunately none of his crew was still alive by the time I was researching but I did manage to track down the daughter of his pilot in Canada, Johnny Hewitt, my mom had pulled out some old photos and there was a letter in there from Johnny from 1975 and it had arrived with my mom just after my father had died so really just being put to one side and it was saying that Johnny’s daughter, Pam, and a friend were going to be coming to Europe on a trip of a lifetime and could they met up with my dad and stay with them whilst they were over here. I don’t think the letter was ever replied to unfortunately because of the timing, so I started to look into the letter and try to find a phone number and but I couldn’t, I saw an address so I wrote to this address, didn’t get any information back after a couple of months, so I decided to phone all the J Hewitts I could find around Ontario [clears throat] just to see if I could find, if Johnny was still around, the pilot but again no joy. Think I must’ve been searching a few months each night and just looking on the internet, doing little searches with different names and I finally came across an article in a small Canadian paper, the Aurelian Times, it was talking about a Johnny Hewitt in the cross hall of fame and it had a little quote from his daughter saying that she hadn’t realised how important he was to the cross or how good he was because he didn’t shout about those things that he did, just like he didn’t shout about his time in World War Two and then I see that the daughter is called Pam, and I think, could this be the link that I was looking for? So, I emailed the editor of the paper and asked him to pass my details on to Pam, a week went by and then one night suddenly an email popped through, just saying, I am the Pam you are looking for, still gives me goose bumps now talking about it, but that started up a great correspondence with Pam. I sent her a copy of the letter her father had written, she’d never seen any of his letters so it was quiet precious to her and she let me know that she actually did come across and do the tour of Europe and she actually stayed with my grandparents, my dad’s father and mother who a lot of the crew went to stay with when they were up in Manchester anyway so they were all well known to them and Pam did a little bit searching and to my surprise she found three letters that my dad had sent in 1945 and 1946 and gave a real insight into his life and the sort of things that they were doing during the war. I think one of the things that quite surprised me from it was almost desperation from my father wanting to do another tour with Johnny and the rest of crew and said he got the crew together and could they all do another tour together, and the thing that just clearly showed the bond that they had and how difficult that must have been breaking up after all they’d been through and you know, despite the risks, they would still want to get together just so that they could keep that, you know, comrade and friendship going and on that. So I think whilst nothing can replace talking to my father about his time in the war, the letters, you know, filled such a void there and also talking to the veterans from 10 Squadron where I’m a member of the association and they can really bring it to life with several of the veterans being also on the same trips that my dad did. So, I hope that one day, you know, maybe I’ll come across a recording of his crew and until then I’ll keep my search continuing, so I’m hoping that people will find this of interest and useful and that maybe one of the relatives of my dad’s crew and the crew of the Halifax III ZAJ the Ol’ Ram will be able to find out a little bit more about their families, thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Susanne Pescott
Creator
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Susanne Pescott
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-18
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APescottSM171018
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:22:23 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Second generation
Description
An account of the resource
Susanne Pescott talks about her father, Flight Lieutenant Harold Arthur Lawson DFC, who worked as an engineer before joining the RAF in 1941, where he served as a navigator. After completing his training, he was posted to RAF Rufforth and from there to RAF Melbourne on 10 Squadron, with which he flew 38 operations. His first operation was to Berlin on the 29th of December 1943 where they shot down a Junkers 88, for which he was awarded a DFC in November 1944. Among his various operations, particular relevance is given to the ones in June 1944, when they targeted a gun battery in Northern France in preparation of the D-Day landings and shot down two enemy aircraft. At the time, he was flying on a Halifax III, known as the Ol’ Ram for its particular nose art. In May 1945 he was posted to 77 Squadron at RAF Full Sutton, where he trained on Dakotas in preparation to fly to the Far East. In October 1945 he was then posted to India to drop supplies and bring back troops. She recounts her efforts made to find her father’s pilot, Johnny Hewitt, and getting in touch with his daughter.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
India
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Berlin
France--Ver-Sur-Mer
France--Neufchâtel-en-Bray
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1943-12-29
1944-06-05
1944-06-06
1945-10
10 Squadron
1663 HCU
19 OTU
77 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944)
C-47
Distinguished Flying Cross
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Heavy Conversion Unit
Ju 88
mine laying
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
nose art
Operational Training Unit
RAF Full Sutton
RAF Llandwrog
RAF Melbourne
RAF Rufforth
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1116/11606/AScottSO150904.1.mp3
889a5cbb3b2747eacf089d7212052a69
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Scott, Seymour Owen
S O Scott
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Owen Scott (1922 - 2018).
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Scott, SO
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the benefit of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is Mr Owen Scott. The interview is taking place at Mr Scott’s home in Stratford-upon-Avon on Friday the 4th of September 2014, sorry 2015. Owen, I wonder if I could just ask you just to tell me a little bit about your early life, where you were born and your family background.
OS: Yes, well, I can do that, it’ll take a long time though [laughs] [clears throat] first of all I was born [pauses], I don’t know whether you want to know this but I was born in London in 1922, my family then moved to Broadstairs in Kent and at the age of ten I attended school in Broadstairs, Kent. I’m having to stop and just think about it because I’m not sure whether I’m, I don’t want to give you the wrong impression and I’ve got to remember what I did in those early days, I went to Chatham House grammar school in Ramsgate, Kent for about two years, when I eventually left the school, my uncle’s suggestion who was very keen for me to get into commercial life and start making a living, he did in fact find a job for me in Harris Lebus, the furniture manufacturer in Tottenham London where I was for about a year and then I returned home and I worked for a local builder as a clerk and typist and after that whoopsie-daisy the war came up and I was always very keen on aircraft and my school pal and I used to go the local RAF aerodrome and watch the aircraft and so I got the bug from that and was always very interested in flying and thought that I’d love to be a pilot. Now, it so happened that I worked, rather a lot happened around that time but anyway I, yeah, I volunteered to the RAF to become a fighter pilot, that’s what, what really urged me on and I just, I thought I’d love to be a fighter pilot flying Spitfires. Now, things got rather hastened at that stage and anyway I was accepted as an aircrew potential and joined the RAF and I was enlisted in London and started serving my time in the RAF. I was eventually posted to, oh dear, what’s the name of the place? Oh dear, on the east coast, damn it, forgotten that, anyway, I then flew for the first time in a Tiger Moth with an instructor of course and it was rather frightening because we took off in snow and I could not believe that the first time I left the earth and it was snowing like hell and subsequently we lost two aircraft over the river, near the Wash, just near the Wash it was and eventually we did our land drills and things like that in Scarborough and was eventually told to stand by but because five o’clock the following morning we were going to Liverpool and no, I didn’t solo at all, I only did about an hour’s flying and that was all, it’s all in my logbook and we were posted to Liverpool and to our astonishment we were put on board the SS Orbita ship and we took seven days to travel to Canada, we were under the impression that we were going to serve with the Canadian Airforce but the actual fact we were on standby for two months in Moncton, New Brunswick, that’s Canada and eventually we were put on a train and to our astonishment we went down to [unclear] just outside I can’t remember but anyway to [unclear] and it was at [unclear], that was an island, I flew solo for the first time. And it was a very exciting time and I remember the instructor saying to me, for goodness sake, don’t hit the tyre as you go off ‘cause the wind’s in the wrong direction and anyway they put the sandbag in the aircraft, this is an American twin-winged aeroplane but anyway I took off and made jolly sure anyway I did the circuit came in and landed safely and hurrah, hurrah, I’ve gone solo. Now then very shortly after that we were told to stand by five o’clock in the morning which always seemed to be the operational time and we got on a train and believe it or not, it took us six days on this train to go down to Pensacola in Florida where we transferred to the American navy. And the idea was to become acquainted with get our wings and to fly American Catalinas flying boats. Now I have recorded on various occasions some of the things that happened when we were in America, I was in America for just under a year learning to fly flying boats and had some rather exciting times which I have since recorded for posterity I hope. But some of the American instructors were very nice chaps but there was an element amongst them where they didn’t like, these goddamn limeys as they used to call us, and then eventually I got my wings and I passed out to be a full captain of a Catalina flying boat with the idea of returning to this country and serving in Coastal Command in America, in Scotland, so here I am with a, oh and also I dropped off at, in Canada, I’ve forgotten the name of the islands now but I did an advanced navigation course there before finishing off, thinking I’m jolly good, I’m gonna fly flying boats out of Scotland. Now when I got back to the UK, to my astonishment, we were told that we were going to go on a conversion course to landplanes and that we should fly with Bomber Command as Bomber Command pilots. Now this was startling news because here we are, I got my wings, I got my special ticket I got from the Americans to fly flying boats and we had to come back to UK to be told that you are going on Bomber Command was very disheartening and in actual fact I made a special request to meet a high ranking officer in Liverpool to, with a view to persuading him that I should go back onto flying boats. He told me to ‘Effing well get back to my squadron’ and was very rude for me indeed and he said, ‘If you don’t do as I effing tell you I’ll put you on a court martial,’ which was very, very frightening for me at that time, now, this seems to be a very long story.
JM: Please continue, it’s wonderful.
OS: But I’m trying to remember, I can remember very well all of this period today, what’s the date of today?
JM: Fourth of September.
OS: The fourth of September 2015 I’m making this recording in front of my charming chap.
JM: Julian.
OS: Julian. To continue with it.
JM: May I ask what year this was that you were joining Bomber Command?
OS: This would be 1944.
JM: ’44.
OS: Am I giving you enough information?
JM: You are. I was going to ask, did you go straight on to a squadron or did you have to do a conversion, did you go to a heavy conversion unit?
OS: Yes, I did.
JM: Tell us about that, please.
OS: Well, yes I flew, oh dear, anyway I lost my train of thought [unclear]
JM: Sorry.
OS: Yeah so much happened around that time is that I want to be as accurate as I can for this purpose and it was a very exciting time but at the same time it was a very frightening time because the thought of going on to Bomber Command wasn’t really what we were looking forward to at all so we were forced into it [clears throat]. I flew Halifaxes, first of all a four-engine bomber which were lousy aircraft and I had a very frightening experience with a New Zealand instructor who I would like to say was checking my crew out and he wanted to fly the aircraft and test my crew and I decided to fly in the rear turret for the experience so he was at the controls with my flight engineer, now we took off and suddenly he shouted, ‘Undo that, undo that, stop that, pull this up, pull that up, pull that out’, just as we took off and it turned out that he had forgotten to unlock the aileron controls and here we were off the ground, climbing and he had no control whatsoever over the aircraft. It frightened me to death ‘cause I was in the rear turret, didn’t know what to do and he kept shouting ‘Undo this, undo that, pull that lever, pull that lever’, and eventually the securing lugs that held the ailerons and rudders and flaps and everything else came into power and eventually they landed safely. I took the man to task and he threatened me and said, ‘If you report me then I will make sure that you are court-martialled’, so I had no option but to forget about the whole thing but it was a very, very frightening experience and it could have killed all of us. Now, around this time, I’m doing this off the top of my head of course, do you think I could just stop a minute and--
JM: Of course.
OS: And just think about
JM: Of course.
OS: Now here I am continuing my yarns about my lifestyle [laughs] and my experiences in the RAF. Now we flew the Halifax bomber as a, not as an operational aircraft but as an introduction to four-engine bombers. I did not like it at all and it was common feeling that it was a lousy aircraft to fly, put it that way, fortunately I did very few hours but as I said before like an introduction to going onto frontline Lancasters four-engine. Now I just stop there for a second if I may. I’m just going to think about that period because it was rather a lot happening particularly when I’m going to talk about, which I have recorded by the way, about picking up my flight engineer. Now both, Halifax, no, I’m not sure but anyway the Lancaster, you had to have a, you couldn’t fly a Lanc without a flight engineer, this is what we call a Lancaster finishing school which was also prior to going onto a squadron but of course now I’m in a situation where I’m going to pick up a crew and I think that’s where I better start.
JM: Please.
OS: Switch on.
JM: Go, it’s on, go. Yeah.
OS: Right. The method of gaining a crew and there were six other members to fly in the aircraft, two gunners, navigator, bomb aimer and flight engineer, oh and wireless operator. Seven of us altogether in every Lancaster. Now so what happened was that chaps got together, we weren’t commissioned at that time, we were flight sergeants and someone said, this chap over here is a nice fellow and I understand he is a good shot, this is a good navigator, they got together, came to me and said, ‘We think these guys will serve you well because we’ve lived with them for a few weeks and I think we’d like to introduce you to them.’ Right, now the next thing is that I met these crew apart from the flight engineer and this story I’ve already recorded because it is a full story and I’m gonna tell it now because I think it will be viewed with a lot of interest. The way they did it was that the crews and the skipper went on parade in lines and the fully qualified flight engineers used to march round the circle and as they passed each crew would fall out and attach themselves to that squadron. I don’t want to go into it any deeper than that but that was a simple as that. Now when the guy comes past me and stopped and then said, ‘Hello skip, my name is—' whatever it was and I looked at this chap and I could not believe to, now we were all around the age of twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, twenty four years of age, this guy looked to me as though he was thirty one, anyway I and also he was a very heavy chap, and he looked to me he was about fifteen stone and I could not believe that I got landed with this sort of chap although he seemed a very nice fellow. Eventually my crew came to me and said skip, of course he would, by that time I was commissioned by the way, so I wasn’t living with my crew who were all flight sergeants, he came to me and said ’We found out that so-and-so the flight engineer is thirty one, he’s not thirty one, he’s thirty one’ and he’s, but he said, ‘We’ve now found out that he’s forty one.’ I could not believe it, anyway there was no appeal, you had to take what they gave you and then when I started having him on the crew I found out that he was an ex Manchester policeman and he was in fact forty one. He was not, he found it difficult to get inside the aircraft and get up beside me on the cockpit, he was very slow on the uptake, on various things, and when it came to being qualified in how do we switch tanks, what pressures and temperatures, the engines would fly at, he was very slow and worried me to death and when I asked him to identify for example lights at night, he would say ‘Did you say, which one did you say, skipper? Which one is that, is it the one on the left or the one on the right?’ And I said, ‘It’s the green one, well, can you see it?’ ‘No’, he said, ‘I can’t see green’ and it frightened me to death. Anyway I’m gonna stop there for a second to get my breath back. Now I’ve already indicated some of the difficulties I had with this flight engineer. I’m now going to recall something I will never forget, one of the things I will never forget and it was that we were on this particular, I forget which one it was, it was a German, German raid at night and lousy night, bad weather, flying in cloud and anyway I’ll skip the bit about the bombing run and the attack but on the, soon as we left the target, my rear gunner called me up and said, ‘Skip, I’m sorry to tell you but the starboard inner is on fire.’ I couldn’t see it from where I was sitting but I got out of my seat and to my amazement the damn engine was on fire and flames was shooting from out of the engine and I knew I got, so I did all sorts of manoeuvres like trying to blow the fire out, by diving in corkscrews and all that sort of thing, the fire wouldn’t go out and I knew it meant trouble because the flames were getting bigger coming from the engine. So what I had to do was to tell my flight engineer to fire the fire extinguisher on that engine, the crew I must say were very quiet and a little concerned, so I said to the flight engineer ‘Now stand by to press the fire extinguisher on the engine that’s on fire, that’s the starboard inner.’ He said, ‘Okay skip, don’t worry, you tell me when you want to hit the button.’ So I said, ‘Well stand by.’ So having dived and climbed for several times at very high speed, at very low speed to get rid of the flames that wouldn’t go out, so I said, ‘Well, on the count of three, I want you to press the fire extinguisher button on the starboard inner.’ ‘Okay skip,’ he said, ‘I’m waiting.’ So, I levelled the aircraft, and I said ‘One, two, three, now!’ The engine, the aircraft immediately yawed or to use a [unclear], anyway the aircraft swung round to the left, I could not believe it, he had pressed the wrong button and killed my point inner so now with two, only two engines left and there was a long way to go home over the North Sea, we got another four or five hours flying home. I, the aircraft, as I said, yawed again and I, once you fired the fire extinguisher you couldn’t fire it again. And anyway to this day I cannot remember how I got that port inner engine to fire and to be serviceable, I have never remembered how I did it but it was an absolute miracle and fortunately I got that engine started and we returned home on three engines. Now when we got back to base, as far as I remember it was about five o’clock in the morning, still dark and I landed and my flight engineer disappeared, we gotta go now for a debriefing, so he didn’t come to the debriefing and my crew and I reported what had happened on the debrief and we went and had our bacon and eggs and went to bed. Now it was still dark and my batman woke me up and said, ‘Skip, your flight engineer wants to see you desperately.’ So I get out of bed and he came in and he said, ‘Skip, I,’ he said ‘I’ve come to tell you what happened and why.’ He was in tears, he said, ‘Skip, my father is stone deaf, my mother is stone deaf, my sister is stone deaf,’ he said, ‘And I’m going deaf,’ he says, ‘And I couldn’t hear you.’ And I said, ‘You realise, do you, that what’ he said, ‘I could have killed us all’. I said, ‘You could, you stupid boy, why on earth did you go through with it like that, knowing that you were going deaf? How important it was to fly alongside of me in the cockpit?’ The following day he was posted from the squadron and I, when Nan and I, my wife and I were on honeymoon, I had a letter from him to say that he had taken on a pub in Manchester, we looked in and said hello, he was very happy to see me of course, so I said, ‘You’re still alive then?’ That’s all I could say. With a sarcastic tone and my wife and I carried on to the Lake District for our honeymoon. That’s the end of the story. There are two things that our eldest daughter Toni has suggested that I should record.[pause] I’m gonna tell you, don’t record, I’ll tell you afterwards but I just want you to see what I was gonna say, now just before I, no, don’t record it, ‘cause I will do.
JM: Yeah.
OS: I’m just trying to [unclear], I want to get into the rhythm of it and I want to get it right, having left the Lancaster Finishing School, we were eventually posted to a squadron. I can’t remember the name, the number of the squadron actually, but it was some fair way from Hemswell where we had the Lanc finishing school. It was about ten o’clock in the morning and we arrived at this squadron and I was greeted by the wing commander who said ‘Come in the office, nice to meet you, you can see what I’m doing here can’t you?’ And I said, ‘Well’, I said, ‘well, I’m not sure.’ He said, ‘I lost ten crews last night’ and I was horrified, he lost ten crews out of ten, wiped out the squadron, and he was going on the blackboard down with a duster wiping them all off. He said, ‘Well don’t worry about it’, he said, ‘You and I will be on a new squadron together and you’re gonna be my second in command.’ You see, so, I thought, oh, oh, alright, here we are, welcoming handshake so to speak, but crews started to come in and we started to build up the squadron with other crews, and after about a couple of weeks he called me in the office one morning and he said, ‘I’ve got something to show you’, and I said, ‘Oh yes’, took me in his back room and there was a container, about ten inches in diameter and about three feet high, it was a food carrier and alongside it there was a packed parachute, I was a little unsure what was going on and he said, ‘I’m just about to fly to Paris and I want you to cover me.’ And I was mystified, I said, ‘I’m not sure what you mean’. ‘Well’, he said, ‘my wife is still living in Paris’ and he said, ‘I’m going to take her a food container and I’m gonna drop the parachute over Paris and I want you to cover for me.’ I was so bewildered I suppose is the word, about this I didn’t tell my crew, but eventually crews started to come in and eventually we started operations against Germany. But he didn’t put me on to fly on ops so I went into his office this morning and I said, ‘Sir, I’m begging your pardon but why aren’t you putting me on ops?’ ‘Well’, he said, ‘you don’t want to go one of these piddling, stupid things on the north coast of France’, he said. ‘Rubbish’, he said, ‘we will wait till we get a big one then you and I are will fly together’. I said, ‘Fly what?’ He said, ‘Well, we’ll go on a big raid.’ Again, I was mystified. And he didn’t put me on. And now, I could not, for the life of me, bear the thought of me flying over France, over Paris, while he dropped some food to his wife, and I thought, I’m not gonna jeopardize my crew and myself here, I’m not gonna do it but I don’t know how I’m gonna get out of it ‘cause he’s a very powerful man. And anyway eventually, believe it or not, a posting came through for me and my crew to form another squadron. I was so relieved, my crew didn’t really, ‘cause I never let on I didn’t want to upset them but I did tell them a later time. But eventually, yes, we were posted to Hemswell to form 170 Squadron. And that leads me to another story. Now, the story goes like this, in the officers, by this time I was commissioned and my crew of course were all flight sergeants, eventually one or two of them did become commissioned but my crew and I were set now to go on an operational bombing squadron at 170 Hemswell. Now we had a little bit of a knees-up so to speak in the mess, in the officer’s mess, one. very shortly after this, one night, and to meet our new wing commander and during the course of the evening his wife came across to me and asked me if I’d go outside with her ‘cause she wanted to speak to me privately. I was rather surprised at this but we went into another room and she says, ‘Owen’, she said I, ‘You don’t mind me calling you by your Christian name, do you?’ I wondered what on earth was coming and she said, ‘But I’d like you to help me if you can.’ And I said, ‘Well, I will if I can but what is the problem?’ She said, ‘The problem is that my husband’ wing commander, forgot his name, ‘He’s not gonna be capable of carrying the post that he’s got’ and she said, ‘And I wanted you to if you would, try and help him all you can so that he doesn’t make any mistakes.’ But of course I, it was an unbelievable thing to happen on a night of frollity, put it that way, that’s the wrong word but, a pleasant evening and I did say to her, ‘Well, I’ll do whatever I can.’ Now then, we started operating hot trot trips over Germany and the wing commander was very weak at the briefings that we had to go on these raids didn’t put himself on at all but it was expected that the wing commander would fly operationally with the crews, he didn’t do that, and it was very difficult to approach him and I thought of what his wife had asked me but I didn’t have the opportunity and I could see that it was going to be inevitable that the man would not last in the post, it so happened that he was posted, we never saw him again and we eventually had a new wing commander. I never heard from his wife but I think that was a story that was a little unusual and for me at the time to find myself involved with the wing commander’s wife, well I can laugh about it now but it was very serious at the time. End of story.[pause] On one occasion on 170 Squadron Hemswell Bomber Command, I think it was on the raid to Duisburg, not, I can refer to it, it’s in my logbook anyway but it was a big target and there were over a thousand Lancasters on it at night and situation over the target was absolutely petrifying, there were fighters above, searchlights and you had to be careful of searchlights ‘cause once they got you in the searchlight they predicted anti-aircraft fire and you’re a goner. And I remember too many times being caught while I got caught twice on searchlights and but how I got out of it I’ll never know, I’m the luckiest guy, the luckiest crew. But coming back to this particular, I think it was Duisburg, but anyway what happened was this, we went on the raid and at night of course, and the job of the bomb aimer was to check through a peeping hole in the bomb bay just to make sure that all the bombs had left, had been jettisoned. The word was that ‘Skip, I’m sorry to tell you’ but that we got the cookie, that’s a two thousand pound bomb, it was fused and could not be defused. Once it was fused and it had to go. And there were five other five hundred pound bombs in as well. Nearly all night I flew up and down the North Sea trying to get rid of these bombs, they would not go and I think there was a malfunction in the bombing mechanism but no matter what I did I could not shake these bombs off. So I returned close to the squadron and called up control and said ‘I got a problem, can you advise me?’ And the guy said, ‘Oh yes, I’ll call you in five minutes.’ Very casual and some of these controllers in the control tower really used to irritate me because they were so damn cocky about things and I said to one of them on one occasion, ‘It’s alright for you sitting there smoking your cigarette but here I am in trouble and all you got to do is say goodnight.’ But anyway they said after five minutes, ‘You can either put the aircraft on automatic, head it out to sea and parachute over the sea or you can put it on automatic and bail out over the land but make sure that the aircraft sets itself and blows itself up in the sea. Or you can land with it and just be gentle how you land it,’ so I called him back and said, ‘I’m thinking about it’, so I said to the crew, ‘I don’t want to persuade you but I’d rather than bail out either over the sea or over the land, I’d rather put it down.’ And the crew were marvellous, they said, ‘Skip you can do it, you can do it, boy, we all vote for you, we are going with you.’ I was very honoured, sorry, upsets me even today. I don’t know what to think about it, but this is what happened, now it’s dark, pitch black and it was raining a bit anyway I called funnels that was the to let the control know where I was and I came up on the, they didn’t, they wouldn’t light the airstrip, the landing field for me because you weren’t allowed to light up at night oh dear in case there were fighters about but anyway I’ve got very few lights, it was pitch black, raining slightly and I didn’t say anything to the crew but I thought to myself, come on scotty boy you gotta put this one down right. And anyway I came in and I landed it on three wheels and my rear gunner called me up and he said, ‘Skip, that’s the finest landing you have ever made, that’s the finest landing you’ve ever made’ and I was still rolling up the runway. And I’ve got to put the brakes on and then he said, ‘Skip, and furthermore you’ll never in your life make another landing like that. It was fantastic’, now I’m now rolling up the runway and I’m doing about a hundred and thirty knots and I gotta put the brakes down and I’ve got these damn bombs stuck up in the bomb bay. So I, and I warned the crew, I said, ‘When we get to the end of the runway, I want you to open up all the doors and the hatches, jump out and run with me like bloody hell.’ Because I knew that if that bomb fell off, it would blow the squadron to smithereens, because you could not defuse it. I turned off very, very gently into the lay-by and [sighs] It upsets me to think about it, but we were the luckiest crew that ever lived because when, I didn’t open the bomb doors, normally after you’d been on a raid you opened the bomb doors when you finished doing the survey and so we ran away and went and had our bacon and eggs and then had a debriefing. Now, later on, that morning I decided to go to my aircraft to see what the situation was. They’d already got inflatable bags under the bomb bay and under the wings and the idea was that because this bomb was still there, they had to lower it very, very gently otherwise it would blow up. Now an actual fact, I recorded this matter, on ITV about a year ago and a full description I gave of it and it went like I’ve said and now here we were now. The frightening thing was that when I landed the actual bomb, the big one, the cookie, the two thousand pounder, which you couldn’t defuse, was resting on the bomb doors. And if I had done the usual practice of opening the bomb doors it would have fallen out and blown up the squadron. But how lucky can you get? We got away with it. End of story. The, it was never disclosed why that bomb had hung up and the five hundred pounders you see there was a mechanism that the bomb aimer used to drop the bombs and looking back on it, it was never really looked, into, we were all so pleased that the war is over, hallelujah and let’s have a good time, get back and let’s live again but I think there was a malfunction in the mechanism of the bomb aimer because he was a lovely guy and he actually became our good, our best man at our wedding, good old George, am I recording?
JM: Yes.
OS: Yeah, so, I’ll stop there a minute. Our executive officer on the squadron, lovely guy, he used to look after, bringing the bad news to parents and wives and so on, all our losses, lovely guy, called me into the office and he said, ‘Scotty I’ve got some good news for you, you’ve been appointed, you’ve been awarded the DFC’, and I couldn’t believe it, he said, ‘Yes you have’, he said, ‘And furthermore I want you to take the Croix de Guerre.’ I said, ‘What do you mean?’ He said, ‘Well, there is a Croix de Guerre for you as well.’ He said, ‘I want you to take it.’ And I said, ‘No, I’m not’, I couldn’t do that. You see, it was the end of the war, celebrations and never again gonna fly a Lancaster, never gonna bomb anything and I said, no, I couldn’t do that. Now, there’s a sequel to this but I anyway, I met him in the mess that night and he says, ‘Scotty, I really wish you would take it’, and I said, no, I couldn’t do it, now I tell you a bit more to that and it went like this, we were briefed and told that this was the last raid the RAF Bomber Command would do, it was the end of the war, then this is going to be the briefing for the last one which was to bomb the submarine pens in Holland. I think it was Holland, I can’t quite remember, but it’s in my logbook. And I was put on with the rest of the crews and now I am hesitating for a second because this was a very, very hairy situation so it was at the briefing it was for a daylight raid on the submarine pens as I say in northern Italy, Holland. And so it’s gonna be daylight, there were a thousand Lancasters on it and it was the last raid of the war. Okay, now then, we get the briefing, take off, I get to within fifty yards of the end of the runway and I lose an engine. It just went dead on me and I don’t forget a Lancaster when it’s fully loaded is thirty eight, repeat, thirty eight tonnes and you got to be very careful, I don’t care what anyone says, I’ve done it, when you fly in a Lancaster you have to be absolutely red hot about everything. Now I’m getting just a little bit emotional about this but it’s something that I can never forget in my lifetime, and I’m telling this true story, now I got off the end of the runway, how I got off the runway with eight tonnes on board of bombs, I’ll never know and I gradually went up into the circuit ready to go to the submarine pens. In view of the fact that it was gonna be the last and it was declared, this is the last raid of the war, in daylight, I said to the crew well I was entitled to go out to sea and discharge my bombload and return to base but like the stupid fool I was in those days, aged twenty two and I thought, for various reasons we’ll go I put it to the crew, they said, ‘Yes, come on skip, you can do it, we’ll do it, it’s the last one of the raids, last one of the war, it’s a daylight, it’s a cinch, it’s a walkover, come on, we’ll do it’, so I went on three engines, it was a stupid thing to do but I’m trying to build the story as to why I should do it but anyway we got near to the target, beautiful sunny day and a Lancaster flew very close to me, just under my port side, and don’t forget I’m flying now with three engines and he waved to me and put his thumbs up and he drifted across and went below me and we are now on the bombing run and my bomb aimer is saying, ‘Left, left, steady, steady, steady, ready, you know, stand by, I’m gonna fire it’ and we are all, ‘Good old skip, here we go, on the last one, we’re gonna drop this one on and stop these bloody submarines from coming out and damaging our ships.’ But to my utter amazement I saw this guy that waved to me go down and a parachute fell out, followed by another one and six parachutes came out and my, one of my gunners said it was a Messerschmitt 109 shot him down, and I was mortified so he hit, they were going down in parachutes, six parachutes opened but the seventh parachute didn’t but I presumed it was the skipper who couldn’t get out and I got my radio opposite, radio operator to phone base straight away and say they’d gone down in the sea and we never heard again what happened but this damn Messerschmitt 109 got him. We dropped our load and we got back safely. Now when it came to the debrief, my crew were very anxious to tell the female intelligence officer who debriefed us what happened, that we lost an engine and I went on three engines, she just marked it down as ‘he returned on three engines’. I was so disappointed because although it was a stupid thing for me to do, it was a celebration but to think that that guy lost his crew because of a 109. End of story. Well, one of the things that happened during the raid was when my - raid over Germany of course - was that my navigator rang me and says, ‘Skip, I’m sorry for Jerry, but we are six minutes early, we’ve gotta lose six minutes because the master bombers have got it wrong somewhere.’ Well, the frightening thing was how on earth am I gonna lose six minutes? so what I had to do was form a three hundred and sixty degree turn in amongst all the other Lancs going in and the perspiration was running off me because I thought, any minute I’m gonna get smashed up with another Lanc, but fortunately and I’m a lucky guy and weren’t we a lucky crew, we got away with it and we continued onto the target but the raids were petrifying, well the raids were terrifying because you know, a Lancaster’s a big aircraft, it was the biggest aircraft in the world at that stage and as I’ve said before, with a full load, you got thirty eight tonnes hurtling through the sky at two hundred and forty five knots and with the searchlights that used to be [unclear], I only went to Berlin once and when you got within striking distance, you’d have thirty searchlights all come on together and light the sky up, and then you see all these aircraft and I can remember on one occasion my bomb aimer saying, ‘Watch out for the sky, on your right, skip, he’s very close’ and he was and the bomber, and the rear gunner couldn’t have told his skipper I was within literally twenty five feet of him and I ducked underneath him and came up on the other side and it was like that and you knew there was fighters flying around but when the searchlights went up, you saw all these things happening and when the master bomber used to call you up and say, ‘This is master bomber one calling the main stream, good evening gentlemen, we are ready to mark the target and we will drop the first flares on the target in four minutes’ and then you see the green lights lighting up on the ground or red and you knew that the target markers were flying at literally at two thousand feet over the target and being shot at and we had the greatest admiration for those guys that used to fly Lancs and four engine oh dear, I’ve forgotten what they’re called, fast aircraft.
JM: Mosquitos?
OS: Say?
JM: Mosquitos?
OS: Mosquitos, yeah. Used to fly and then you get a message that says, ‘This is the master bomber calling you, this is master bomber two’, and you knew that number one had been shot down, it was always very scary but we had the greatest admirations for these guys, you know those who’ve all got VCs because there is so many of the guys that marked the target and never came back. But to, well, we’ll never forgotten any of them.
JM: I believe you were on the Dresden raid, Owen.
OS: Which one?
JM: The Dresden raid of February 1945, the one that attracted all the publicity post-war.
OS: Oh yeah, I was on that one, yes.
JM: How did you feel about that?
OS: What, when we bombed the?
JM: Dresden.
OS: Dresden, yes. Well, I was on the second raid, and they told us this is not, this is a very, very important target and every effort must be made to help make a success of this raid because it’s where we’ve got the Russians coming in from the East, there’s a lot of transportation of German equipment there and it’s gotta be blotted out, it’s gotta be, it’s gotta be a hot raid. Now I was on the second raid there were five hundred and fifty nine on my things and when we got, it was a hell of a way to go as well, it took us I think six hours to fly down there at night and we had a few fighters knocking about on the way down. When I get to telling this story, my American accent starts to come out so forgive me if I talk like an American occasionally. But my wonderful navigator Derrick, who was the best on the squadron said to me, ‘No [unclear] skip, I never want to look out of the window’. On this particular night I said, ‘Derrick you come out here and look at this, you will never ever see anything like this at all in your life’. I made him come out and he said, ‘My God, what on earth is going on?’ There was tremendous fires all over the area and there were so many Lancasters knocking about, you had to be careful as well and the crew, particularly the gunners, I said, ‘Keep your eyes peeled fellows you, we’re not gonna know what’s happening here, we’ve gotta get on with this job and we’ve gotta get back’. Now here we go and Derrick, my navigator, he said, ‘I’m so glad you called me out from under the canopy, weve never seen anything like this.’ We did our job but there was a long way to get home and that night we flew for ten hours eighteen minutes on that target. End of story.
JM: Could I ask you Owen, what did you, what do you feel about the way in which Bomber Command was treated by the politicians after the war?
OS: Disgraceful. Disgraceful.
JM: It must have been very difficult as, you probably looked up to Winston Churchill
OS: Oh yeah.
JM: And there he is forgetting to say anything about Bomber Command. That must have hurt.
OS: Oh, it did. We were waiting for it. Didn’t come. And Bomber Harris, well, tell you a story about him, he came up behind us one day, are we on air? We are on the air?
JM: Yes, yes.
OS: Well, I was taking another squadron, taking another crew in a transport this particular day and damn me if Bomber Harris didn’t come up with his flag on his car behind us, was waiting to get past us. When the two crews all gave him the V fingers and called him, you know, Butch Harris, we called him, and was shouting at him, ‘Butch Harris, you’re a butcher, you’re a butcher!’ and I thought, I said, Shut up chaps, you’re gonna get ourselves in a load of a trouble here’, here comes my American accent, I can feel it, and the guy came up alongside us, they were all giving him the V fingers and I knew he was gonna pull us over, but he didn’t, he drove on. And that was an experience.
JM: So you’re saying that Harris was not popular with the aircrews?
OS: Oh yeah, that’s what we used to call him, Butch Harris, Butch Harris. And end of story.
JM: Okay.
OS: I was just going to say that a pal of mine on the squadron, lovely guy but I couldn’t believe that he was married with two children. I never mentioned it to him because I thought it would undermine his confidence but to think of him with, married with two children, he lived in Hull apparently, but he was a good pal of mine on the squadron, we used to play snooker together, we used to go out together, he had some frightening experiences like I did, had a lot in common, and on one particular occasion [laughs], just springs to my mind but, he and I were on leave at the same time and we arrived at three o’clock in the morning in Gainsborough and met by chance and we normally stayed in the local pub overnight waiting for a taxi to take us back to the squadron which was about nine miles away and on this particular night [laughs], it was a freezing cold night, we couldn’t get put up at the pub so believe it or not, but we sat in a telephone box, all night, sitting on our luggage, freezing cold and waiting for the dawn as it were so we’d get a taxi so we get back on squadron and he tapped me on the knee and he says, ‘Scotty’, he said, ‘you are awake, aren’t you?’ And I said, ‘I’m freezing’, he says, ‘So am I’, said, ‘But’ he said ‘ I want you to know’, he said, ‘You know I love you, don’t you?’ [laughs] and he made me laugh so much but he was that sort of guy and I missed him dearly because I came back on from another leave in the transport that brought me back, they told me the bad news that he never came back and he was a lovely guy. And I’ve never forgotten him. End of story.
JM: How did you feel as the end of your tour approached, were you and the crew nervous about whether you would complete or did you just take it a day at a time?
OS: Well, when we finished you mean?
JM: As you were approaching the end of your tour.
OS: Approaching the end of the tour?
JM: Mh.
OS: I got my logbook there with it all in. We are not on air, are we?
JM: Yes.
OS: We are on air?
JM: Yes.
OS: Ask me the question again.
JM: How did you feel as you approached thirty completed operations? Were you confident that you would finish your tour?
OS: No. I was scared to death ‘cause we got away with it for so long and we only got, shall we say I remember when we got to twenty eight, the crew never mentioned it though we were very tight-lipped about it, scared to death really, oh my God, we got this far, we’re gonna get knocked off tonight and on one occasion we were briefed for a bash, as we used to call it, and this officer came past me and he was in tears, he was absolutely throwing, he was absolutely drenched in tears, looking dead ahead he never saw me. I knew the guy, he was a fellow officer, he never came back that night. It was like that. And so the last two were very scary, very scary indeed and it was still intense activity full volume, you know, when you get a thousand Lancasters all going to the same target, it was absolutely terrifying but you had to keep your gut, you had to keep yourself in tight and you had to not think about it too much and the you used to dread going in the briefing room to see what was the, see what the target was and you know when it came up, you knew the bad ones and, oh my God, we’ve gotta go there tonight and I remember on one occasion, my batman woke me up, he says, ‘Skip, I’m sorry to tell you but you’ve missed the briefing you’re on. They forgot to tell you.’ They forgot to tell me that there was a raid on. And I climbed out of bed and put my flying boots on and eventually my batman took me out to the aircraft, the engines were running and my flight engineer had started the engines, and in the briefing when they called my name, they called my name, ‘Yes, I was available, I was there’ but I wasn’t and I got in the aircraft, the engines were running and I taxied out and took off and I said, ‘For Christ’s sake, someone tell me where we are bloody well going!’ And they said, ‘We are going to—' oh dear, hot target, I’ve forgotten the name of it for the minute, because I was going down the runway and I said, ‘For Christ’s sake, someone tell me where I am going!’ And when they told me, my God, it was some, something, I’m getting a bit worked up talking about it but never forgot it that night and that was somewhat typical of how life was on the squadron.
JM: You were all brave men but did you have any experience of any men for whom it was too much?
OS: Yes.
JM: And they refused to fly? Could you tell us what happened?
OS: Well, I had one good chap that I knew very well, he came to my room one night and said, ‘Scotty, can I talk to you?’ I said, ‘Of course you can.’ Lovely guy. He says, ‘Scotty, I have decided that I can’t go on, I can’t do it.’ And I said, ‘If you have decided that you know what you gotta do.’ He said, yes. I hate the thought of it, Lack of Moral Fibre, as soon as you said you couldn’t go, you were marked straight away, LMF, Lack of Moral Fibre, and it was a disgrace and he eventually, well, you see, if you did that, they posted you from the squadron straight away and they sent you peeling potatoes or something and it was marked on your logbook, Lack of Moral Fibre, couldn’t go through with it. This guy went through with it, I didn’t see him after that, a lovely guy but you see, there weren’t many that had the courage because they hated the idea of the expression Lack of Moral Fibre and that’s why it was put that way to prevent them from doing it and in other words so many thought about and nearly did it and didn’t and carried on and got killed. But that’s how life was on squadron.
JM: When the war was over, did you think about staying with the Royal Air Force or were you very anxious to go back to your civilian life?
OS: I was anxious to go to civilian life and what I did was you could apply to have an extension of six months on your term of office so what I wanted to do really was become a commercial pilot and bearing in mind that I was very fond of the sea because you know I was in the merchant navy as a young boy, fifteen, and with my experience in flying boats, my hopes were that I could get myself a commercial position flying flying boats. So I asked for an extension of six months, I was then transferred to another squadron and there are stories I could tell you about that. So for six months I had time to think about civilian life, I got married et cetera et cetera and I applied to British BOAC British Overseas Airways and then I sent an application form but I wasn’t successful, that’s how it was, but during that time, when I was with, I went to another squadron because my own squadron was disbanded and there’s lots of stories I can tell you about that, but for the moment I think I’ll shut down.
JM: Owen Scott, thank you very much for sharing your wartime experiences with me for this recording, it’s been a privilege to listen to you. Thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Seymour Owen Scott
Creator
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Julian Maslin
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AScottSO150904
Format
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01:15:21 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Description
An account of the resource
Seymour Owen Scott (usually refered to as Owen) served as a Lancaster pilot during the war. Mentions always having a passion for flying since he was little boy. Remembers training in Canada and the United States to become a flying boat pilot in Coastal Command and then surprisingly being assigned to Bomber Command. Mentions various service life episodes: converting onto heavy bombers in England; a flight engineer being posted from the squadron for concealing his hearing loss; losing an engine on the last operation on the submarine pens in Holland. Gives a detailed account of a harrowing emergency landing with a hung up bomb. Remembers a frightening experience with a New Zealand instructor while training on Halifaxes. Gives a vivid description of the dangers the Lancaster crews faced during an operation. Mentions a brief encounter with Arthur Harris and a case of Lack of Moral Fibre.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
170 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Catalina
Distinguished Flying Cross
fear
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Master Bomber
military service conditions
pilot
RAF Hemswell
searchlight
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/172/410/AColomboS161203.2.mp3
b629dae753178122dfd78c8f8671095d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/172/410/PColomboS1602.1.jpg
3ff2c03b49be64a9108a83ed14dad24e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Colombo, Santina
S Colombo
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Santina Colombo who recollects wartime experiences in Milan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-12-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Colombo, S
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ZG: L’intervista è condotta per l’international Bomber Command Centre. L’intervistatore è Zeno Gaiaschi, dell’Associazione Lapsus. L’intervistata è Santina Colombo e nella stanza è presente Greta Fedele, come parente, e sara Troglio dell’associazione Lapsus. È il 3 dicembre 2016, e siamo in via [omitted] a Milano. Iniziamo. Prima della guerra, che lavoro facevano i suoi genitori?
SC: Contadini. Ma la mamma era a casa perché aveva, avevo il fratellino che aveva quattro anni, mia sorella ne aveva sette e io ne avevo undici prima della guerra.
ZG: Qual è il ricordo più lontano nel tempo che ha?
SC: Il ricordo più lontano è quando sono morti i nonni, diciamo, e poi quando c’era mio zio lì nel cortile dove abitavo io, io abitavo al primo piano, lui al pianterreno, facevano i contadini però avevano la radio e quando hanno comunicato che il Duce ha fatto la, si è messo con Hitler, tutti contenti all’inizio ma c’era anche chi non era contento, come mio papà, è sempre stato un comunista, no, socialista, socialista, e non era contento. E poi, il pensiero della guerra, perché iniziava la guerra dopo. Quello lì è il ricordo più brutto che ho, quando ero una bambina ecco.
ZG: Mi racconti un pochino della sua famiglia.
SC: Sì.
ZG: Come viveva la sua famiglia prima della guerra.
SC: Prima della guerra, dunque… Papà è nato nel ’91 e la mamma nel ’99, 1999 [sic]. E si sono sposati nel ’27 o ’28, io sono nata nel ’29 eh. Papà era contadino, sempre stato contadino e la mamma pure, che non è mai andata al lavoro negli stabilimenti, faceva la contadina. Quando sono nata io la mamma è stata a casa. Dopo, avevo quattro anni, avevo quattro anni, è nata mia sorella, è nata mia sorella e la mamma non è più andata al lavoro finché nel ’36 è nato mio fratello, è andata al lavoro, ha cominciato nel 1940 andare al lavoro ancora. Io ero la più grande e dovevo curare sorella e fratello, anche se ero ancora piccolina io [laughs]. Però, però non c’era niente da mangiare, è quello perché… la carne si mangiava a Natale, a Pasqua e alla festa del paese, la carne. E se no c’era il risotto col lardo, o risotto coi fagioli, minestra e taleggio e una mela in cinque. Che papà la sbucciava, io ero la più grandina, ero qua vicina, una fettina perché si può immaginare una mela in cinque, la dava prima a me, poi la dava a mia sorella di là intanto che lei guardava la mela io le davo una pedata sotto il tavolo, e la mela gliela mangiavo io [laughs], perché insomma ero la più grande e insomma non bastava quello che mi dava perché anche la minestra e il risotto era abbastanza poco. Lavorava solo il papà, eravamo in cinque. Non è che avevamo l’appartamento perché c’era un locale un po’ più grande di questo, il papà l’aveva diviso a metà con delle perline di legno, c’era la camera con il letto matrimoniale del papà e la mamma e i tre lettini per noi e la cucina ci stavamo appena appena dentro a mangiare. Poi il papà aveva preso un pezzettino, il cortile era grande e gliel’ha chiesto lì al proprietario, le ha dato un pezzettino di terreno, ha fatto l’orto. Fatto l’orto con un bel sgabuzzino di legno e lì coltivava la verdura, lui è sempre stato coltivatore di verdure e quando avevamo i soldi, perché i soldi li portava a casa solo lui, avevamo i soldi, ho detto ‘io prendo due oche, prendo due oche, li metto là nel giardino e la sera, la sera le portiamo di sopra perché se no ce le portano via’. In più alla sera in casa aveva fatto come un, non diciamo stabiello per il maiale, però ha fatto un recintino piccolino con della paglia sotto per le due oche che metteva lì alla sera andava giù a prenderle e portava di sopra. Il mattino le portava giù prima di andare al lavoro, erano giù. E noi andavamo là, noi bambini portavamo un pezzettino di pane ma poco perché mancava a noi e le davamo da mangiare. Però prima di Natale, quando era buona per ucciderla, la uccidevano e la mettevano dentro nella, adesso non ricordo più come si chiama, si chiama giara o cosa, che la facevano andare con il lardo e un po’ di olio poco, burro, perché l’olio costava di più del burro e la mettevano dentro a pezzi, dentro ne quella giara lì, sotto la finestra in camera, che prendeva un po’ di freddo, e ogni tanto, ogni tanto, ogni quindici o venti giorni tiravano fuori un pezzettino, la facevano andare con le verze, una specie di verzata. Piuttosto del maiale si metteva l’oca e si mangiava, però andava benone. Quello che mi ricordo prima della guerra, dopo [laughs].
ZG: È stata fantastica. Ehm, si ricorda di quando è scoppiata la guerra?
SC: Sì. Quando è scoppiata la guerra dove abitavamo noi, in via Lampugnano al 175, e lì erano tutte case a pianterreno, primo piano e pianterreno, cantine non ce n’erano. Quando suonava l’allarme per i bombardamenti dovevamo fare la via Lampugnano, andare in via Beolchi, dove c’era la casa lì, che era una casa fatta su cantine e lì era il rifugio, ma era una cantina diciamo e però ci trovavamo là tutti assieme. Di notte quando suonava l’allarme, dovevamo saltare fuori dal letto, coprirsi con la coperta che avevamo su sul letto e scappare via con gli zoccoli, e via e andare. Stavamo là finchè suonava il cessate allarme e poi si tornava a casa. Poi una volta, mi ricordo che avevo dodici anni, e sono andata con mia mamma in via Novara, che lì aveva degli amici, dei parenti, degli amici più che parenti, che abitavano qui, si erano sposati e l’hanno invitata ad andare là a vedere la sua casa. E siamo andati, mi ha detto vieni anche te, vieni anche te. Eravamo lì che stavamo per partire, venivi a casa a piedi eh, da via Novara che dopo comincia via Rubens, e suona l’allarme, abbiamo dovuto fermarci lì e siamo andati giù nel rifugio lì suo dove abitavano loro. Suonato il cessate allarme, abbiam preso e siamo venuti a casa. Sulla via Novara sui marciapiedi abbiamo visto tre morti che sembravano, non dico lo spavento che ho preso quella volta lì perché c’erano fuori gli han sparato proprio nella testa che è andata giù una bomba in Via Novara dove ci sono tutte quelle case lì adesso, ecco. Comunque niente, siamo venuti a casa e tutta spaventata io perché, eh, era la prima volta che vedevo i morti così. Sì avevamo paura che quando suonava l’allarme perché si diceva se viene giù una bomba qui altro che andare giù con la casa qui. Però. Così.
ZG: Invece proprio, si ricorda del giorno in cui è scoppiata la guerra? Di come gliene avevano parlato gli adulti, di come gli è arrivata la notizia?
SC: Sì, come l’ha detto mio zio lì che aveva la radio lui che avevano fatto il patto con Hitler e, però il giorno preciso non mi ricordo, perché ero una bambina, eh. Mi ricordo quel giorno qui, quando hanno ammazzato quei partigiani lì.
ZG: Mi racconti pure.
SC: Ecco. Quel giorno qui era il 26 aprile del 1945. Il 25 aprile la radio aveva detto che la guerra era finita. Il 26 aprile del 1945, mentre sorgeva l’alba della liberazione, cadevano al loro posto di combattimento Casiraghi Eugenio di anni 37, Del Vecchio Luigi di anni 42 e Grassi Erminio di anni 22. Erano partigiani della 44esima Brigata Matteotti. E sono stati i fascisti di questo rione, di Trenno, perché prima si chiamava Trenno, e sono stati i fascisti a dirli, ‘andate lì in via Novara che arrivano i partigiani, vi danno dei sacchetti di roba da mangiare’. Loro c’hann creduto e quando sono stati lì all’altezza lì dove c’è l’Harbour in via Cascina Bellaria e lì li hanno ammazzati dentro in un fossettino. Li hanno fatti buttare dentro, li hanno detto di andare dentro nel fossettino, li hanno uccisi loro, i fascisti di Trenno. E meno mal che el mi mari non è andato perché doveva andare anche lui, assieme al Grassi Erminio che era suo amico.
ZG: Si ricorda perché li uccisero?
SC: Eh perché erano partigiani e non erano fascisti. Perché qui ce n’erano diversi eh di fascisti a Trenno.
ZG: Dei fascisti, cosa è successo dopo, insomma a queste persone che?
SC: Dei fascisti, c’erano dei fascisti che abitavano a Trenno e erano lì in via Novara dove adesso c’è la Rete, l’albergo, il ristorante La rete che adesso è chiusa. Erano lì in via Novara e siccome, come le ripeto mio papà era un socialista e non aveva la tessera dei fascisti, mio papà e dieci altre persone assieme a mio papà li hann portati lì in via Novara e li han dato giù una bottiglia di olio di ricino da bere di mezzo litro a tutti e dieci, che son stati male dopo per cinque o sei giorni, ecco. Erano gente, amici qui di Trenno, proprio che si conoscevano.
ZG: E dopo la guerra, a questi fascisti qua cosa è successo?
SC: E dopo la guerra meno mal chi mort, pace all’anima sua che son morti senza ammazzarli noi, perché l’odio c’era eh solo che beh io ero una bambina, però mio papà e gli altri suoi amici che sono andati là a bere l’olio di ricino avevano voglia di ucciderli loro. Invece son morti. Dopo la guerra a uno a uno sono andati tutti e cinque, che abitavano lì in via Rizzardi avanti.
ZG: Tornando, diciamo, alla guerra, ai bombardamenti, lei cosa faceva durante la guerra, lavorava ha detto, e dove lavorava?
SC: No, ho lavorato due anni all’ippodromo San Siro a tirar su i sassi, però per tre o quattro mesi. Poi ho incominciato a imparare a fare la rammendatrice, a quindici anni ho imparato a fare la rammendatrice, poi sono andata a diciassette in una ditta in via Lario che andavo in bicicletta da qui fino là in via Lario che è vicino al Niguarda in bicicletta anche se pioveva in mano la bicicletta con mano l’ombrello e andavo là a lavorare, fare la rammendatrice. Che lavoravamo i tessuti che venivano da Biella per il Galtrucco di Milano.
ZG: E Le è mai capitato che suonasse un allarme antiaereo quando era sul posto di lavoro?
SC: No, no, perché lì ho cominciato a diciassette anni.
ZG: Quando… quindi l’allarme antiaereo le è capitato che suonasse solo quando lei era ancora a casa.
SC: Quando ero a casa che stavo imparando a rammendare in via Belfiore, allora lì sì anche lì che ero lì imparare a rammendare è suonato l’allarme e mi ricordo che la proprietaria del negozio lì dove stavo imparando aveva la casa dove c’è adesso il, prima c’era il Zenith in Corso Vercelli all’inizio e adesso invece mi sembra che c’è una libreria, prima c’era il Zenith, e lei abitava lì e una bomba è andata giù e ha buttato giù tutto e lei è rimasta senza casa né niente. Meno male che era lì nel negozio e che ero da sola, è stata lì e mi ricordo che eravamo lì quando è suonato l’allarme siamo andati in un’altra casa che avevano anche lì la cantina e siamo andati lì. Però eravamo in via Belfiore e la bomba è andata giù in Corso Vercelli. Anche lì un bello spavento perché dopo avevo paura a venire a casa perché venivo a casa a piedi da lì eh. Dopo non passavano più né tram né autobus perché andando giù la casa avevano ostruiti anche il passaggio dei tram che arrivavano fino a qui in Perrucchetti.
ZG: Quando eravate nei rifugi, nelle cantine, come passavate il tempo?
SC: Pregando. Pregando tutti, anche gli uomini, che rispondevano [pauses] Nella paura, eh.
ZG: Si ricorda che preghiere facevate?
SC: L’Ave Maria e il Padre Nostro. C’erano le donne più anziane che dicevano “oh Signur, oh Signur, e tont i, e tont i” e poi “Padre Nostro, che sei nei cieli”, poi si ripeteva tutti. E l’Ave Maria.
ZG: Ehm, quando poi finiva l’allarme, come lo sapevate che era finito l’allarme?
SC: Perché suonava, suonava il cessate allarme. Suonava e allora ci guardavamo tutti in faccia, ci abbracciavamo noi bambini e i più grandi e poi ‘ciao ciao’ e si tornava a casa, perché magari durava un’ora, un’ora e mezza, e anche due. Di giorno era un conto ma di notte era un altro.
ZG: Lei si ricorda cosa è che la sconvolgeva di più quando eravate in cantina? Qual’era il ricordo più forte che ha?
SC: Il pensiero che andasse giù una bomba dove c’era la mia casa. Come quei terremotati che sono là adesso là, che hanno sempre il pensiero di dire ‘la casa non c’è più, cosa facciamo‘. Lì è proprio una guerra anche lì eh.
ZG: E invece sulla strada per casa come tornava? Lei era sempre con i suoi genitori?
SC: Sì sì tutti e cinque si andava là quando suonava l’allarme. Di giorno no perché il papà era all’ippodromo. E se capitava di giorno andavo io con i miei fratelli e la mamma. Ma la maggior parte era di notte.
ZG: Lei per caso aveva parenti che combattevano al fronte?
SC: Nella seconda, non nella terza. Che sono morti, che c’è qui la scuola di Trenno ci sono due aule con il nome dei fratelli del papà, Colombo e Colombo, che sono morti nella seconda guerra mondiale.
ZG: E dove sono morti, lei lo sa?
SC: Non lo so, non lo so perché io è già un dispiacere il papà quando gli hanno dato il nome alle due aule io andavo a scuola lì dopo. Però lui non mi ha mai detto niente e io non chiedevo niente.
ZG: Invece ha, per caso aveva parenti che invece lavoravano nell’industria bellica?
SC: No, avevo parenti che sono andati coi tedeschi. Una zia e una cugina.
ZG: Le va di…
SC: Mamma e figlia. Con due tedeschi.
ZG: Ma che sono andati a vivere proprio in Germania?
SC: No, che sono andati lì in casa sua, in via Lampugnano al 170 la sera. Andavano lì e la figlia è rimasta gravida, il figlio che è nato era proprio un tedesco, non era figlio di un mio cugino marito di lei.
ZG: Come, che ricordo ha dei tedeschi durante l’occupazione?
SC: Paura. Loro quando erano venuti qui alla scuola, venuti qui alla scuola che passavano allora alla via Lampugnano c’erano giù i sassi e con i due, le beole che dicevano i trottatori, ecco. Prima di tutto non c’erano luci perché c’era un lampione qui in, la piazza dicevano la piazza dove c’è adesso il semaforo. C’era un lampione lì, poi ce n’era uno là vicino alla scuola, può immaginarsela la strada tutta buia. Ma quando passavano i tedeschi con quelli scarponi lì. Io avevo la finestra proprio sulla, la camera sulla via Lampugnano e facevano rimbombare anche i vetri, perché allora i doppi vetri non c’erano. Che passavano e cantavano e con quelli stivaloni lì facevano una paura enorme guardi. Io li guardavo dalla finestra, guardavo giù ma avevo una paura, avevo quattordic’anni, quindici eh.
ZG: Lei non ha avuto nessun episodio in cui le è capitato di avere a che fare con i tedeschi?
SC: No no.
ZG: Quando la guerra è finita, si ricorda il giorno della liberazione?
SC: 25 aprile, il 26 hanno ammazzato questi qui.
ZG: Ma si ricorda di come le è arrivata la notizia che la guerra è finite?
SC: Sempre lì dallo zio, che aveva la radio perché in casa mia fino a diciott’anni non c’era né radio né giornale. Leggevo il giornale perché me lo passava mio zio che lo comperava lui, se no... Ecco dopo mi ricordo che eravamo in quattro cinque amiche e in via Novara, adesso non ricordo quella via lì, dove c’è la posta che va giù, quella via lì non mi ricordo, che si va giù in fondo c’è la caserma, c’è la caserma e lì c’erano gli americani. Allora quelli più grandi sono venuti a casa e l’hann detto che noi eravamo là all’oratorio, era domenica si andava all’oratorio, si andava in chiesa il pomeriggio poi si andava all’oratorio dalle suore, e son venuti a casa e c’hann detto ’andate lì, andate lì che gli Americani sono là alla finestra, se vedono le bambine’. Allora io avevo quindic’anni, sedic’anni, ’se vedono le bambine o le ragazze, buttano giù le tavolette di cioccolata’. Allora si andava a piedi fino a là e c’hann buttato giù le belle tavolette di cioccolata ma bisognava tagliarlo col coltello talmente era alto era buonissimo. Ecco il ricordo degli americani al confronto con i tedeschi.
ZG: Prima ha detto che suo marito da ragazzo era stato partigiano.
SC: Sì, era partigiano, era amico con questi. Dopo quando i fascisti, lui non so se l’ha sentito tramite qualcun’altro, i fascisti gli hann detto ’andate in via Novara perché arriva una colonna di partigiani vi danno qualche sacco di roba da mangiare’. Sono stati i fascisti a dirglielo. Loro sono andati ma quando sono stati lì in via Bellaria all’altezza qui dove c’è la lapide che l’ho fotografata ieri mia figlia quando m’ha portato a casa, e dopo io ho scritto tutto quello che c’era scritto e c’era la lapide lì e lì c’era un fossettino perché erano tutti campi prima, c’era un fossettino che passava l’acqua, li hann fatti sdraiare lì e li hanno uccisi loro, fascisti di Trenno. Ma mio marito non è andato e si era nascosto in un solaio ed un altro suo amico in via Luigi Ratti, s’era nascosto lì nel solaio, è rimasto lì per due giorni che li portava su da mangiare il suo amico perché aveva paura che i fascisti magari lo vedessero in giro e …
ZG: E si ricorda che cosa faceva come partigiano suo marito prima della, durante la guerra?
SC: No, no, perché [unclear].
ZG: È un argomento di cui non avete mai parlato?
SC: No, no, perché poi lui è andato a studiare in seminario perché il papà aveva un tumore alla faccia, aveva un tumore alla faccia e la mamma faceva la magliaia e sua so, le è morto un fratello a diciotto anni del tifo ma quello non c’entra niente e lui voleva andare avanti a fare il liceo ma la mamma gli ha detto io non posso, non posso perché … allora lui per poter avere il diploma lì del liceo è andato in seminario a studiare. Ha parlato, la mamma ha parlato coi missionari, è andato là è Madonna non ricordo il nome, è vicino a Monza, è venuto a casa che aveva il liceo ecco però non eravamo ancora fidanzati e sapevo solo quello.
ZG: Le ragazze di cui ci parlava prima, che erano andate coi tedeschi, dopo la liberazione cosa le è successo, lo sa?
SC: No. È successo che l’ha saputo tutto il paese. Una era mia zia eh, che non era una ragazza, e l’altra era mia cugina sua figlia, che si era appena sposata è rimasta incinta ma quando è nato il figlio, per non dire che non è stato il marito perché non era giusto, che mancavano più di, quasi tre mesi, hanno detto che era un settimino, per non dire di sei mesi. Che poi il figlio era proprio un tedesco. Tedesco di nome no, ma di fatti. Ma di fatti.
ZG: In generale, qual’è il ricordo più forte che ha della guerra, quello che le è rimasto più impresso?
SC: Quando ho fatto la via Novara che ho visto quelle tre persone con tutte le, le cose fuori dalla testa. Le cervella, che sembrava la cervella che si prende dal macellaio per impanare e mangiarla. Ecco, l’impressione più brutta era quella [pauses] che mi è rimasta, perché qui in pratica qui a Trenno non è successo niente all’infuori di questo che dopo siamo venuti a conoscenza e odiavamo quei ragazzi lì. Che fra l’altro il fascista di questi adesso c’è l’Ambrogio Giroli era suo zio.
ZG: Torniamo di nuovo ai bombardamenti. Cosa, cosa le dicevano di chi bombardava?
SC: Eh, che erano i tedeschi. Dopo a volte dicevano che erano gli americani, invece erano i tedeschi. E poi mi ricordo, mi spiace che non la trovo più perché quando hanno ucciso il Duce in Piazzale Loreto con la Petacci, io avevo la fotografia che è andato mio marito a fargliela. E avevo una cartolina. Non la trovo più, non la trovo più, non la trovo più, l’ho cercata apposta per farvela vedere a voi.
ZG: È una foto che le ha fatto…
SC: Che le fatto mio marito in Piazzale Loreto col Duce appeso in Piazzale Loreto e la Petacci e altri due.
ZG: Cosa pensava di chi la bombardava, lei?
SC: Cosa pensavo. Che erano dei disgraziati. Ma disgraziato più è stato il Duce che ha fatto il patto con Hitler, eh. Però essendo una bambina non avevo radio, non leggevo giornali.
ZG: Degli inglesi invece cosa pensava?
SC: Io non so perché, io ho pensato solo agli americani. Degli inglesi non pensavo niente.
ZG: E degli americani?
SC: E degli americani pensavo bene, perché sono venuti a liberarci, eh. Che quando sono arrivati gli americani la prima volta che gli abbiamo visti sono arrivati lì con quelle jeep, non so io cos’erano, in fondo a via Lampugnano che adesso c’è il Palatrussardi ecco, siamo andati fino a là per vederli. Perché si erano fermati là e noi da qui a Trenno, noi ragazze, che avevamo quindici anni, sedici, siamo andati, chi diciassette, chi diciotto.
ZG: Ci hanno raccontato di un episodio di un bombardamento alla Cascina Bellaria.
SC: Bravo.
ZG: Lei se lo ricorda?
SC: Bravo, sì, bravo.
ZG: Si ricorda l’episodio?
SC: Sì non mi ricordo ma so che è andata giù una bomba lì alla Cascina Bellaria, ma allora era tutto prato lì. Il parco lì proprio c’era solo la cascina e basta.
ZG: Per caso si ricorda l’anno?
SC: No.
ZG: Invece ha mai sentito parlare del Pippo?
SC: Pippo? Cos’è il Pippo?
ZG: Un modo di dire in alcune parti di Milano in cui si parlava di un aereo che volava, un solo aereo che volava di giorno e di notte sopra la città.
SC: Mai sentito.
ZG: Senta, invece adesso che cosa pensa di chi la bombardava?
SC: Eh, cosa penso. Che erano dei maledetti, che cosa si pensa? Che cosa si può pensare? Io devo dirmi fortunata perché dei miei parenti nessuno è stato, è stato preso, diciamo, nei bombardamenti o, però la paura che c’era…
ZG: Invece, finita la guerra, la vita com’è cambiata lei e la sua famiglia?
SC: Eh un po’ diversa perché ho cominciato a lavorare, facevo rammendi, mi ricordo che il primo rammendo che ho fatto qui a Trenno, un buco di sigaretta in una giacca e ho preso cento euro [sic]. Un buco di sigaretta e ho preso cento euro [sic]. Allora, perché allora facevano anche rivoltare le giacche. Chi faceva l’impiegato consumava tutta la, il bordo qui della giacca e allora me lo portavano qui e io lo rammendavo. C’era il trucco. Si faceva così, ecco, e mi ricordo che ho cominciato a star bene lì. E mi ricordo che avevo diciotto anni e ho preso le prime calze di nylon, se no c’erano i calzettoni di cotone fino al ginocchio. Le prime scarpe che ho preso avevo il 35, mio papà mi ha preso il 38 perché ha detto che dovevano durare tre o quattro anni, che il piede si allungava. Quando non ci è stato più dentro il piede, li ha portati da un calzolaio qui a Trenno che era anche un cugino, Colzani, m’ha tagliato il tallone e ha lasciato il cinturino per fare i sandali, però metà tallone era giù fuori dal tacco delle scarpe. E dopo ho dovuto metterle via, pulirle bene per mia sorella. E al tempo di guerra, a Natale, ci si alzava sul tavolo là in cucina c’era per me e mia sorella perché allora mio fratello era ancora piccolino, un mandarino, un torroncino Sperlari nella scatoletta di cartone che era più bella la scatoletta che il torrone che c’era dentro, cinque spagnolette, torroncino, cinque spagnolette, il mandarino e una bambolina di pezza che ha fatto mia mamma, che dovevo tenerla in mano a Natale, Santo Stefano, poi metterla via per mia sorella. Quello era il Natale, in tempo di guerra. E il panettone, tagliava il panettone di mezzo chilo perché quello da un chilo non si poteva prendere, mezzo chilo lo tagliava, lo tagliava tre quarti, un quarto lo metteva via per febbraio, San Biagio come tradizione.
ZG: Bene. Per noi siamo a posto così
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Santina Colombo
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Zeno Gaiaschi
Date
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2016-12-03
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Format
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00:35:13 audio recording
Language
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ita
Spatial Coverage
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Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Milan
Italy
Temporal Coverage
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1945-04-26
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Lapsus. Laboratorio di analisi storica del mondo contemporaneo
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Santina Colombo describes her early life in a family of farmers, her father a fervent socialist. She mentions the start of the war announced on the radio and gives a detailed account of civilian life in wartime Milan: scarce food, growing vegetables on small plots, home rearing of geese, and the constant fear for the fate of enlisted relatives. Describes bombings and the rush for safety in a nearby basement, men and women praying together during the alarm, and hugging each other after the all-clear signal. Recalls the constant fear that her home would be destroyed and the trauma of seeing corpses on the road. Mentions the Cascina Bellaria killing and describes how her husband, a partisan, narrowly escaped death. Describes fascist violence, leading to acts of revenge after the war. Mentions her aunt and cousin living with the Germans, the latter to become pregnant. Speaks of aircrew as odious and detestable, and scorns on Mussolini and Hitler.
Identifier
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AColomboS161203, PColomboS1602
Coverage
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Civilian
bombing
childhood in wartime
civil defence
faith
fear
home front
Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945)
perception of bombing war
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/437/7768/ABoiocchiS170225.1.mp3
a2fbdcaf2567650a931cc3eb4557f924
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Boiocchi, Sandro
Sandro Boiocchi
S Boiocchi
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Sandro Boiocchi who recollects his wartime experiences in the Pavia area.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-02-25
Rights
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The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Boiocchi, S
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
FA: Sono Andi Filippo e sto per intervistare il signor Sandro Boiocchi. Siamo a Travacò Siccomario in provincia di Pavia, è il 25 febbraio 2017. Ringraziamo il signor Boiocchi per aver permesso questa intervista. La sua intervista registrata diventerà parte dell’archivio digitale dell’International Bomber Command Centre, gestito dall’università di Lincoln e finanziato dall’Heritage Lottery Fund. L’università s’impegna a preservarla e tutelarla secondo i termini stabiliti nel partnership agreement con l’International Bomber Command Centre. Signor Boiocchi, vuole ricordarci la sua esperienza, i suoi anni, qui a Travacò?
SB: Sì. Io sono nato nel 1941, ero bambino ma ricordo, ricordo perfettamente, ehm, i periodi che abbiamo attraversato durante la guerra e ricordo esattamente, [clears throat] esattamente come, ad esempio quella volta che, ehm, con mio padre, che mi teneva per mano. Ehm, dunque intanto noi qua siamo nel territorio di Travacò, che è il triangolo di confluenza fra il Pò e il Ticino. Nelle immediate confiniamo con il Borgo Ticino nella parte più bassa del Borgo che è il Borgo, cosiddetto Borgo Basso e con, e quindi con gli abitanti del Ticino che, ehm, per dire come sono le cose, i borghigiani si sentivano un po’ come, come un grosso paese cioè, ehm, è Pavia però il fiume ha definito la città dall’altra parte e questi erano legati alle nostre campagne, alle nostre amicizie eccetera eccetera. Quindi scoppia la guerra [coughs] e ci sono stati furiosi bombardamenti sul ponte del, sul vecchio ponte coperto e anche sull’altro ponte perché i ponti erano vie di comunicazione che, ehm, sicuramente per questioni strategiche dei vari, dei vari paesi in conflitto dovevano essere eliminiati e quindi rendere più difficile, ehm, lo svolgersi della vita normale o i passaggi di truppe, i passaggi di elementi eccetera. Ehm, quindi i borghigiani e molti si son visti crollare addosso le case, ci sono state tante vittime eccetera perché non è mica che le bombe a quel tempo fossero intelligenti come quelle di oggi, anche se di bombe intelligenti non ce ne sono perché lì è ignoranza e basta, non è intelligenza e chi distrugge non fa mai cose buone. Ehm, e quindi la popolazione del Borgo e praticamente scappava e si rifugiava nei paesi attorno e noi siamo stati il primo paese che ha avuto ma anche questa ricchezza, io la chiamo di tutta questa gente che scappava e tutte le nostre famiglie ospitavano questi sfollati che non sapevano neanche, ehm, dove andare. Ehm, quindi tanti facevano parte del gruppo partigiani di Travacò perché qua si era costituito un gruppo di resistenza al regime che era molto consistente, molto attivo. Ehm, e quindi, e quindi, vorrei dire anche che quel, nell’occasione, va beh lasciamo stare, andiamo con ordine. E quindi tantissimi ospitati da noi, ehm, si sono allontanati diciamo dai pericoli più gravi che avrebbero vissuto. Ehm, e poi riprenderò ancora questo problema, questo aspetto del, diciamo, di questi sfollati perché ci sono stati dei, cose che hanno determinato poi anche fatti importanti. Intanto, ehm, io ricordo perfettamente quando mio padre, ehm, mi ha portato con lui nella zona della confluenza, oggi è la zona dove, dove abbiamo costituito la grande foresta. Ehm, e ricordo anche il punto pressappoco dove è caduto un aereo, sembra che fosse un aereo tedesco, colpito dalla nostra contraerea perché al Vul, nell’Area Vul c’era la contraerea che cercava di colpire gli aerei che cercavano di bombardare il ponte e bombardare Pavia. E ricordo perfettamente perché ci siamo avvicinati a quell’aereo, e quell’aereo che era messo tutto sgangherato ormai e c’era sopra un pilota morto con la testa chinata e mio padre mi ha allontanato e così ecco questo è uno dei ricordi. Ricordo perfettamente quando hanno fatto saltare la, era l’inverno del ’43, quello è una roba che non posso dimenticare perché è scoppiata la polveriera, la santabarbara che c’era oltre il Ticino nel territorio di Pavia qua da noi
FA: Albaredo Arnaboldi se non sbaglio
SB: Scarpone
FA: Sì, ecco, esatto, sì, sì, sì.
SB: Nella zona di Scarpone, allora nonostante questa distanza io ricordo che la nostra casa allora io abitavo a frazione Boschi, là,
FA: Sì.
SB: A cinquanta metri dalla Marzia, dove c’è la trattoria. Ehm, siamo rimasti senza vetri, porte, son cadute anche le porte, le finestre, ehm, e quindi ricordo i miei nonni, ricordo mio padre eccetera che hanno dovuto tamponare con delle cose di emergenza perché c’era freddo, eravamo in casa e c’era anche forse ghiaccio, neve, roba del genere, ehm e quindi sono stati brutti momenti.
FA: Per lo spostamento d’aria?
SB: Per lo spostamento d’aria, per lo spostamento d’aria ma un boato esagerato eh, un boato esagerato. Cosa ha combinato dall’altra parte non lo so nelle zone più vicine, noi a questa distanza abbiamo notato questo. Ma ho vissuto anche gli ultimi momenti dei rastrellamenti che si facevano periodicamente perché noi, io ricordo, bambino con questi, ehm, tedeschi in divisa, allora io non sapevo chi erano, ma in divisa i tedeschi poi la divisa l’ho, più tardi ho potuto capire che li qualificava come tedeschi, accompagnati dai gerarchi fascisti del posto entravano nelle case e cercavano. Allora di mangiare non ce n’era, la farina non c’era, il riso non c’era, si viveva di espedienti, funzionava mi è stato detto poi un mercato nero di chi aveva possibilità però ma la gente comune non aveva niente, viveva delle risorse che c’erano,
FA: Del territorio.
SB: Che c’erano qua sul territorio, erano le verdure, erano la frutta, erano un po’ tutte queste cose. Ehm, e quindi questi rastrellamenti e ricordo perfettamente che sono entrati un gruppetto formati da tre tedeschi accompagnati da un paio di borghesi che questi erano sicuramente quelli, i nostri che collaboravano con gli occupanti tedeschi, ehm. E hanno fatto aprire tutti gli armadi, gli armadi, la madia del tavolo che una volta c’erano i tavoli
FA: Sì, sì, c’era [unclear]
SB: E c’era la tavola che si alzava e dentro lì si metteva il pane eccetera. Ehm, mia madre [pauses and starts crying], scusami, [pauses] ha avuto il coraggio di affrontarli anche [pauses] cacciandoli fuori perché [clears throat] in quella casa c’erano [pauses] bambini, io e i miei fratelli che avevamo niente da mangiare quindi cosa cercavano in questo nostre case? Non c’era niente, si viveva e basta ecco. Ehm, quelli ricordo che hanno abbassato la testa perché mia mamma gli ha detto: ‘Ma vergognatevi, cosa venite a fare qua? Ma non vedete in che condizioni siamo? Non vedete come viviamo? Non abbiamo niente! Quindi andate fuori, andate fuori dalle scatole!’ Ecco, una cosa così insomma. Beh questo lo ricordo perfettamente. E ricordo perfettamente che c’era in quel periodo un aereo che tutti noi lo chiamavamo Pippo, questo aereo che, come vedeva una luce, come vedeva, non so di notte anche eh, perché di notte quando noi lo sentivamo in lontananza quando arrivava e, e allora tutti a nascondersi. Qua noi, i rifugi soprattutto per noi erano le stalle che c’erano anche perché di riscaldamenti non ce n’erano, ehm, la vita anche fuori era pericolosa e quindi il fatto di raccogliere legna oppure erano momenti in cui arrivavano bombe da tutte le parti e quindi le stalle servivano anche per scaldarci perché ricordo che da bambini con i, con quelli più anziani, andavamo, ci trovavamo un po’ nelle stalle, un po’ di qua, un po’ di là perché con, con il bestiame c’era un clima, un clima che era tiepido insomma,
FA: Certo.
SB: E quindi ci sembrava anche. Ehm, e comunque gli ordini che c’erano tassativi anche da parte dei nostri genitori, dei nonni perché allora erano famiglie patriarcali eccetera: prima di tutto, quando veniva buio non bisognava accendere la luce; se c’era una necessità di accendere la luce solo per quel momento, tappando bene tutte le finestre eccetera perché altrimenti le luci erano visti dall’alto e lì c’era il rischio di avere bombardamenti. Ehm, dicevo prima che, poverini, quelli del borgo che sono sfollati da noi ma da noi sono arrivate bombe ad esempio, sono arrivate bombe che, che so, bombe impazzite, non lo so, non, oppure lasciate da un aereo che era stato colpito che sono cadute anche qua nel nostro territorio quindi, che però non sono esplose. Ce n’è una ad esempio, ehm, nella zona dell’agriturismo della Valbona che era caduta ed è scomparsa, sarà entrata in falda e non, anche le ricerche dopo non sono mai state, non hanno mai dato un frutto positivo. Ecco, quindi era una vita, una vita tremenda, sono stati momenti di paure e poi tutti hanno avuto un lutto in un senso o nell’altro, ad esempio, ehm, gente che si era nascosta, ehm, in, dove noi abbiamo i fossi sotto la strada ci sono le tubature e lì sono, sono scoppiate bombe vicine e abbiamo almeno un caso di due fratelli che si erano nascosti lì sotto e sono esplosi assieme alle bombe perché lo spostamento d’aria li ha disintegrati lì sotto il ponte. Ehm, quindi eh, quindi era una vita, una vita estremamente, noi non ci rendevamo conto perché i più piccini cosa facevano? Piangevano perché avevano fame. Piangevano perché sentivano sparare da tutte le parti, scendevano le bombe eccetera eccetera. Ecco noi abbiamo in quei momenti solidarizzato molto con i, gli sfollati che di fatto da qualche anno, ehm, prima del ’45, fino al ’45 perché poi con la liberazione abbiamo, abbiamo, tutto si è sistemato eccetera. Ehm, ma per anni hanno partecipato alla nostra vita, noi abbiamo avuto tantissimi, erano sfollati nell’oratorio di Travacò, nell’oratorio di Travacò c’era un borghigiano, Schiappini, che poi noi abbiamo un suo scritto, ce lo ricordava lui questa roba. Avevamo un vecchio prete, Don Morone all’epoca, che era veramente un prete e viveva per gli altri, e siccome aveva, aveva le scarpe rotte e d’inverno girava con le dita dei piedi fuori dalle scarpe questi borghigiani hanno fatto una colletta e hanno dati i soldi a questo prete che era venuto a Pavia per comprarsi le scarpe. E se lo son visto poi ritornare ancora nonostante questo con i piedi fuori dalle scarpe e gli hanno chiesto: ‘Ma, prevosto, come mai? Gli abbiamo dato i soldi per comprare le scarpe?’ E lui fa: ‘Guarda, [crying] ho incontrato uno che stava peggio di me [crying] e quindi le ho comprate per quello, non l’ho fatto’. Questo per dire i momenti che erano e la gente che c’era in quel momento.
FA: Certo.
SB: Noi , di questi borghigiani c’era la famiglia Maggi che era la madre, no che era la, era nella famiglia di Borgo Basso, di Via Milazzo, di Borgo Ticino ed erano scappati qua, erano scappati qua per fuggire appunto dai bombardamenti ed erano presso una famiglia, una famiglia guida che a trenta metri da casa mia. Con i bombardamenti questa donna era, stava per partorire e con questi bombardamenti poi ha partorito ma ha perso il latte, ha perso il latte. Mia madre aveva avuto mio fratello proprio in quel momento e allora la famiglia che lo ospitava erano venuti da mia madre, da mia madre per vedere, siccome era una donna un po’ rigogliosa diciamo, un po’ formosa, e diciamo e aveva un seno molto abbondante, ehm, gli hanno chiesto se avesse allattato anche quell’altro bambino. Mia madre l’ha fatto, ha detto: ‘ Io ne allatto uno e allatto anche l’altro se mi viene il latte’, infatti così è stato. Quel bambino oggi è il reverendo Don Maggi del, parroco del duomo di Pavia, è stato rettore del collegio Borromeo eccetera, Ernestino Maggi con il quale siamo ancora in ottimi rapporti e che lui, e che lui, beh lui, ehm, aveva due anni meno di me, ricorda poco. Ehm, quindi quando cinquant’anni dopo abbiamo fatto, adesso ritorno un attimo a quello che dicevo prima, quando abbiamo fatto quella rimpatriata concordando con il presidente del comitato di quartiere Borgo che è il Vittorio Chierico che tra l’altro è uno storico appassionato e che quindi, ehm, ha raccolto tante memorie e anche fatto diversi testi su queste cose, ehm, abbiamo fatto una rimpatriata qua a Travacò. C’era anche monsignore Bordoni che è stato, era parroco di Pavia ed era il direttore del giornale il Ticino della diocesi di Pavia e che lui, ehm, ha vissuto in mezzo ai bombardmenti, in mezzo, dentro le macerie perché fra l’altro, ehm, ha ricordato anche lui a tutti noi il suo lavoro di parroco nel soccorrere i feriti eccetera eccetera. C’era don, la famiglia di don Ernestino, c’erano tutti i borghigiani e in quell’occasione lì c’erano anche, ehm, tutti i famigliari che ricordavano queste cose. È stata una bellissima giornata, noi l’abbiamo passata assieme a, per ricordare tutte le nostre vicende comuni e guarda caso comunque dicevo prima qualche borghigiano tipo Abbà, Amleto Abbà, che non c’è più neanche lui, era partigiano qua da noi, ce n’erano anche altri e, ehm ecco, e lì abbiamo intervistato, noi come amministrazione comunale, tramite anche l’assessore alla cultura eccetera, ehm, i partigiani presenti anche il gruppo di Travacò ehm e abbiamo, e abbiamo messo queste interviste in un opuscoletto edito dalla nostra biblioteca. Ecco, vorrei dire che comunque il primo sindaco dopo la Liberazione di fatto è stato Luigi Fregnani, uno dei partigiani borghigiani che era di Travacò quindi è stato il primo sindaco nominato dal CLN e poi con le prime elezioni che ci sono state successivamente dopo la Liberazione ehm. È importante aver ricordato questo perché poi c’è stato un seguito di fatto. Il seguito è stato che il, queste interviste che noi abbiamo fatto ma anche per avere dei ricordi pensando che le cose finissero lì insomma ecco ehm e pensando che questi ricordi potevano servire in futuro qualche cosa. Succede che questa intervista, cioè che questo opuscolo finisce in mano a un graduato dei carabinieri che stava lavorando attorno alla storia dei carabinieri a Pavia, nella zona eccetera. E ehm, e questo qua a un certo punto, ma sto parlando di un paio di anni fa, neanche, un anno e mezzo fa, ormai eravamo, siamo diventati amici per altre cose, eravamo già amici, mi chiama e mi dice: ‘Ma senti, ma voi avete fatto quell’opuscolo lì, avete, ma vi rendete conto che, sotto, io sto trovando cose che hanno tutti riferimenti a Travacò’. Allora, ehm, abbiamo di fatto, ehm, visto un po’ tutta la nostra storia, e abbiamo fatto ancora altre ricerche e stiamo per pubblicare un libro sulle cose che abbiamo scoperto. Allora, intanto abbiamo scoperto che Travacò era strategicamente importante per la lotta di liberazione per i, i movimenti e i passaggi sia di armi sia di partigiani da Milano verso l’Oltrepò, arrivavano a Pavia, traghettavano il Ticino, erano a Travacò ma erano anche pronti ad attraversare il Pò ed essere un collegamento con i partigiani dell’Oltrepò delle colline eccetera. Noi qua avevamo il maresciallo Corippo che era il maresciallo all’epoca di Borgo Ticino che e avevamo il maggiore Olinto Chiaffarelli che era il comandante della caserma dei carabinieri di Pavia che in quell’epoca, e questo è quello che abbiamo scoperto dopo, in quell’epoca erano, si sono messi in aspettativa perché quando il Mussolini ha creato la Repubblica di Salò, voleva anche che tutti i carabinieri e tutte le organizzazioni militari eccetera aderissero alla Repubblica di Salò. Questi carabinieri, quindi il nostro maresciallo e Olinto Chiaffarelli, allora era, mi pare che fosse colonello o maggiore, adesso non ricordo bene, che comandava la caserma di Pavia, si sono messi in aspettativa, hanno detto: ‘Noi non aderiamo alla, ehm, alla Repubblica di Salò perché abbiamo fatto un giuramento. Noi abbiamo giurato al re’, perché in quel momento il re si era separato dal Duce, dal governo, e lì è scoppiato il finimondo perché tutti erano allo sbando, erano allo sbando le nostre caserme, erano allo sbando tutti i carabinieri, polizia eccetera perché chi aderiva da una parte, chi aderiva dall’altra eccetera eccetera, loro hanno detto: ‘Noi abbiamo giurato al re, non aderiamo a quella parte e ci mettiamo in aspettativa e quindi ci togliamo’. Ecco, questi due, quindi il maresciallo Corippo e il comandante Chiaffarelli con le loro famiglie erano a Travacò. Allora noi abbiamo avuto, ecco l’intersecazione della storia nostra con i carabinieri, erano a Travacò il comandante Chiaffarelli con la famiglia era alla Cascina Orologio, cinquanta metri distanti dalla Marzia, lì c’è una grossa cascina verso l’argine e erano alloggiati lì con la famiglia e la, il Chiaffarelli alla Cascina Carnevala, è quella cascina se lei torna indietro per Pavia dalla zona della Battella,
FA: Sì?
SB: Che esce in borgo, vede una bella cascina dove c’è la curva a gomito,
FA: Sì?
SB: Ecco, quella è la cascina Carnevala e lì c’era ed era una cascina [laughs] del podestà fascista che c’era all’epoca. Però c’era la famiglia di Chiaffarelli lì. Noi tutte queste cose adesso poi le produciamo nel nostro libro che facciamo. Ehm, poi avevamo un altro carabiniere di Travacò che era Colombi e avevamo e c’era un altro carabiniere, che era Vittorio Caraffa, che era a Mezzano, era sfollato qua in un’altra famiglia. Allora, questi carabinieri di fatto, allora il comandante di Pavia Chiaffarelli era il comandante addirittura di tutta l’area Nord, verso Milano eccetera, della Resistenza. Il comandante Corippo era, era quello che aveva anche lui compiti direttivi, ehm, e, ed era in contatto con i nostri capi partigiani del luogo. Tant’è vero che i capi dei partigiani qua erano di fatto Corippo e Crepaldi e Crepaldi ehm, che era, ehm, un milanese che aveva fatto il militare a Pavia in quell’epoca, poi si era fatto la morosa a Travacò, poi si è sposato anche lui con una di Travacò eccetera. Ehm, quindi c’è tutta una storia allora noi abbiamo scoperto attraverso queste indagini poi con l’estensione dei carabinieri intanto il gruppo di, dei carabinieri di Travacò comandati da Corippo il giorno 26 aprile, ehm, il giorno 26 aprile stavano aspettando l’ordine per contrastare i tedeschi che comunque erano già in ritirata. C’era una colonna di tedeschi nella zona del vallone e bisognava, e bisognava che questi fossero accerchiati e accompagnati per la ritirata verso, verso il Brennero, non so da che parte, perché stavano lasciando comunque l’Italia però attenzione, stavano lasciando l’Italia ma con la rabbia dentro e quindi dove incontravano, incontravano qualcuno, sparavano eh quindi uccidevano ancora, anche durante la ritirata. È arrivato l’ordine di, ehm, e Corippo aveva dato l’ordine a, di tenersi pronti perché il 24 o il 25, no, o il 25 o il 26, ehm, avrebbero dovuto attraversare il Ticino e quindi contrastare questi tedeschi che erano in ritirata. Noi abbiamo avuto un morto lì perché il nostro gruppo ha partecipato a quella, c’è stato uno scontro con, con i tedeschi ed è morto il carabiniere Colombi di Travacò. Quindo Travacò ha dato anche lui un contributo di vite umane e anche per la liberazione. Ehm, ecco queste sono le cose che poi abbiamo scoperto dopo ma c’è ancora una cosa: allora, stranamente, stranamente, questo l’ho sempre sentito anche dagli stessi partigiani, i tedeschi che hanno occupato questo territorio erano, erano ehm, solidarizzavano con le nostre famiglie cioè non hanno mai, a parte un fatto che è succeso che poi lo dirò, ehm, non, ehm, c’era stato un ordine - questo l’abbiamo scoperto dopo - un ordine dall’alto, parlo per la lotta di liberazione naturalmente, che Travacò e il suo gruppo partigiani di Travacò non doveva disturbare i tedeschi, non doveva scontrarsi con i tedeschi, non dovevano creare condizioni di contrasto. Il perché non l’ha mai saputo nessuno, l’abbiamo scoperto noi. E l’ho scoperto dopo perché noi abbiamo scoperto che Travacò era il luogo dove c’era la maggiore quantità di armi per la lotta di liberazione perché nei boschi di Travacò, ehm, lasciarono giù con gli aerei le munizioni che il comandante Chiaffarelli tutte armi che catturavano ai tedeschi eccetera eccetera venivano calate qua e poi distribuite, distribuite nelle case, nelle stalle, nelle botole, ad esempio sotto il tavolo del comandante Corippo, sotto il tavolo, c’era una botola. Corippo aveva due bambine piccole, il maresciallo aveva due bambine piccole e in quella botola lì c’erano armi, c’erano una quantità di armi non indifferenti. La moglie di Corippo ha avuto il coraggio e la prontezza di sedere le bimbe sopra il tavolo, di mascherare un po’ perché se avessero visto quella botola lì si fucilavano subito le persone e quindi, ci sono stati rastrellamenti e anche sparatorie con le mitraglie dove c’è il fieno nelle cascine eccetera perché pensavano che diversi partigiani si nascondessero nelle cascine e questa è la verità. Noi avevamo ad esempio anche quattro inglesi qua, che venivano ospitati clandestinamente nelle famiglie, erano ricercati dai tedeschi e, ehm, e le famiglie facevano a turno a, di giorno nei boschi a portare, a portare il cibo a questi qua, di notte dormivano nelle case che le ospitavano. Allora questo ordine di strategia l’abbiamo poi capito il perché. Perché qua non, doveva succedere nessun conflitto perché questo luogo era sacro ai fini della resistenza e ai fini dei passaggi da qua all’Oltrepò, dall’Oltrepò. Il Luigi Fregnani che poi, il borghigiano che poi è diventato sindaco ci ha confermato che lui aveva il compito di traghettare da Pavia o di collaborare con i traghettatori che da Pavia venivano a Travacò e che da Travacò andavano nell’Oltrepò e viceversa, e viceversa. Quindi abbiamo potuto poi ricostruire le cose che, ehm, che abbiamo avuto il piacere di conoscere, compreso il fatto che due partigiani, molto vicini di casa, non sapevano uno con l’altro che tutte e due avevano armi perché allora, se fosse trapelata una notizia o qualcuno che si fosse sbilanciato, sbilanciato, avrebbe rischiato la vita, non solo sua ma anche di tutta la famiglia. Quindi lì c’era l’intelligenza militare dei carabinieri, che, ehm, avevano creato dei compartimenti stagni in modo più assoluto, uno non sapeva cosa faceva l’altro, arrivava un ordine e ognuno doveva muoversi secondo gli ordini che arrivavano. Quindi per dire che, ehm, questa roba ha funzionato e noi siamo riusciti a scoprire dopo che almeno una quindicina di siti, almeno una quindicina di siti appunto c’erano nascoste armi, qualcuno nella mangiatoia, qualcuno nella stalla, qualcuno nella botola nell’orto, qualcuno nel cascinale, qualcuno, eccetera eccetera e quindi Travacò era comunque una, sarebbe stato una polveriera ma, ehm, per rifornire gli altri in battaglia e non tanto, ehm, perché qua di battaglie non ne dovevano accadere da quello che abbiamo capito. Quindi, ehm, ecco queste sono state le, ehm, la vita vissuta da noi e dalla gente di quei momenti e ehm, e anche, ehm, e anche dai nostri, dai nostri compaesani e dai nostri borghigiani che hanno partecipato con noi a questa vita, non dico. Ah noi abbiamo avuto delle persone che addirittura, noi abbiamo avuto il medico condotto, il dottor Ruozzi tanto per citarne uno, che, ehm, che ha, ehm, che curava a rischio perché era anche stato portato via accusato di curare i partigiani eccetera e quello ha avuto il coraggio di dire ai tedeschi: ‘Io sono un medico e io faccio il medico, non chiedo, ehm, una fede politica per curare uno o l’altro, curo tutti quelli che vengono da me’. E quindi il dottor Ruozzi è stato anche lui uno, ehm, un eroe, così come è stato eroe il partigiano Lavina che, [laughs] quello faceva parte del nostro gruppo partigiani che appena c’è stato sentore che era imminente la liberazione, lui aveva lavorato un po’ di anni in Germania, sapeva parlare il tedesco, il tedeschi lo usavano un po’ anche come interprete però era un partigiano di quelli anche abbastanza tosti e con una mitraglia, una mitraglia che un essere umano non riusciva a portare, con la forza della disperazione, dicendo parole in tedesco ha fatto uscire tutto il comando tedesco che c’era qua da noi con le mani in alto, perché lui ha fatto credere, parlando in tedesco che c’era, ehm, che il comando era accerchiato, che dovevano arrendersi. Qunado hanno visto che, invece, era una persona sola e che poi sono arrivati anche gli altri partigiani, ormai era tardi, e quindi sono stati beffati anche loro in questo modo, non ci sono state sparatorie perché quelli si sono arresi e, ehm, e tutto è finito lì. Ecco, io altro non saprei cosa dire ma ci sono anche tanti altri episodi ma la roba verrebbe un po’ troppo lunga.
FA: Vorrei farle una domanda, un paio di domande. Voi da qua, dal vostro punto di vista, dei suoi ricordi, vedevate quello che succedeva giù al borgo quando, quando bombardavano?
SB: No, no, no. Noi, ehm, diciamo perché, la vita era praticamente bloccata. Uno non si azzardava ad andare in Borgo se non per necessità perché ad esempio in Borgo c’era il farmacista Ricotti, la farmacia Ricotti del Borgo era un po’, ehm, era la nostra farmacia, allora per le necessità sì però, ehm, e quindi ci venivi, no, e quindi toccavamo con mano che la gente che è venuta qua non aveva neanche più la casa in Borgo perché il Borgo, ehm, più vicino al Ponte, tutto attorno al Ponte, era tutto giù.
FA: Certo.
SB: E quindi, e quindi, non ci siamo resi conto, dopo ci siamo resi conto, quando c’è stata la Liberazione, allora abbiamo visto. Ci siamo trovati con, con una tristezza esagerata, con tutto da ricostruire, con tutto da fare, con tutto da organizzare e lì ci sono voluti anche gli anni ma però la vita ha ripreso il suo corso e, e tutto ha cominciato a funzionare, e, funzionare.
FA: Certo. Un’ultima cosa. Ehm, gli sfollati che arrivavano a Travacò, ehm, erano organizzati diciamo secondo un sistema assistenziale condotto da qualcuno oppure erano un flusso autonomo, diciamo casuale?
SB: No, no, no. Allora nelle nostre zone di sistemi assistenziali non ne esistevano perché tutta la popolazione aveva bisogno di essere assistita si può dire. Qua non c’era niente per nessuno, tutti erano in miseria, tutti avevano, eccetto qualcuno naturalmente, no? Ehm, quindi era un po’ un’assistenza fai da te, di solidarietà, erano, uno aiutava l’altro. Se un vicino di casa non, aveva un bisogno c’era, c’era sicuramente la famiglia che lo aiutava quindi era un’assistenza che funzionava così. Solo dopo con la ripresa, dopo la Liberazione, allora le prime amministrazioni si sono dovute occupare anche dei problemi di assistenza,
FA: Questo problema.
SB: Perché anche questo era uno degli aspetti principali insomma perché se no, non si sopravviveva eh.
FA: Sì, quindi non era, per dire, il comune di Pavia o l’esercito, i carabinieri che li mandavano. Si spostavano secondo la loro esigenza.
SB: No, no, no, no. E poi ricordo che hanno costituito il patronato e noi bambini a scuola avevamo il contributo del comune per acquistare i libri, i quaderni eccetera, c’erano. Ecco, si sono organizzati, sono state organizzate dopo le varie assistenze, le varie organizzazioni che poi si occupavano di seguire queste miserie perché in effetti era una miseria generale insomma.
FA: Va bene. La ringraziamo allora per questa intervista.
SB: Per quel che può servire, grazie a voi, anche se m’avete fatto un po’ ritornare nella mente cose che avevamo già cancellato.
FA: La ringraziamo.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Sandro Boiocchi
Description
An account of the resource
Sandro Boiocchi remembers wartime memories at Travacò, in the Pavia area. Mentions various episodes: food shortages, the black market, fascist and German roundups, Pippo flying at night, bombing of bridges, giving shelter to evacuees. Tells how stables provided warm shelter but were also used as hidden storage for weapons. Mentions seeing an aircraft taken down in the woods, with a dead pilot still inside the cockpit. Remembers the blowing up of an ammunition dump and the following blast wave, which shattered their windows and doors. Describes the strict instructions issued by parents and relatives to black out the windows extremely well in order not to serve as a target for bombings at night. Tells of when his mother stood up against a group of Germans and fascists intending to search their house for food and how she told them off. Recounts episodes of selfless generosity and moral integrity . Explains how, following a direct order from the partisan leaders, actions against the German troops were forbidden in the Travacò area, of strategic importance for the resistance and where huge amounts of weapons were stacked. Tells of Carabinieri opposing the Fascist regime, having pledged allegiance to the king. Tells how, in absence of authority, the population resorted to informal mutual assistance networks.
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Filippo Andi
Date
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2017-02-25
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Peter Schulze
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00:43:10 audio recording
Language
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ita
Type
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Sound
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ABoiocchiS170225
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Italy
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy--Pavia
Temporal Coverage
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1945-04-26
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
fear
home front
Pippo
Resistance
shot down
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1079/11537/APopikaR180806.1.mp3
a31c72321680486a97fccbb762c58367
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Popika, Ruta
R Popika
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ruta Popika (b. 1928). She was born in Lithuania with dual German nationality. She lived through the Russian occupation and emigrated to Germany during the war before making her way to England in 1947.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Popika, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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SC: So, this is Steve Cooke uhm, interviewing Mrs Ruta Popika for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. We're at Chaddesden, Derby and the time is 10.45 on the 6th of August 2018. So Ruta if I can ask you to start telling us your memories from that early time and just tell me everything that you want to tell me.
RP: Now the memories really start I think from, I was born in what then was Lithuania the, on the banks of the river Nemunas. Now the river Nemunas is the major river between what then was Germany and Lithuania and it starts in Russia somewhere, I never remember where it starts and it goes into the Curonian, they call it now I think the Curonian Bay or something
SC: Aha
RP: Anyway I lived, we lived there until I was seven. My father's work was customs officer and he did that all the time we were in Lithuania and from there we sort of, it's a long story, we were all born, there were six children, at that time we were only five children when we left there. From there we moved to several places and the first place we went to was Nida and that is on the Curonian Spit, I think they call it now and it's an absolutely gorgeous place, it's on a peninsula that starts from what is Russia now but then was Germany, half of it was German half of it was Lithuanian. So since my father was a customs officer we always lived on the border. We stayed there for three years and we moved to a place called Panemune, now that is again on the river Nemunas and on the other side of the river was a town called Tilsit in German, Tilze in Lithuanian and I can't remember what it is in Russian now, they've changed it completely and we lived there for a couple of years until Hitler started being a little bit greedy, I think, he wanted to take Poland so he said to Stalin now if you don't mind us occupying Poland you can have Lithuania, not Lithuania but the Baltic states and just overnight. First of all Hitler, Hitler also wanted a part of Lithuania minor that is where we lived. This was actually before I think I don't suppose we can go back
SC: Okay it's okay, you come back
RP: It is, that is, what happened first of all when we lived in Panemune, the Germans decided they wanted to have that part of Lithuania, Lithuania minor, so they just moved in overnight and we just saw our father disappear. And what had happened is: because he was a customs officer he had to move straight away to the new border which was now Lithuania and Germany it became, so of course a few days later he sent for the family and we all moved, he had to find somewhere for us to live there so we all moved to Lithuania major and we lived there until the war started actually. shortly and before the war that was when the Russians decided, decided they wanted access to the Baltic sea and they, they just marched in and took it all because the three Baltic states were not prepared for a war or anything like that, which is whether there was any, what happened politically I don't know. And uhm all at once we were under the Russians and the Lithuanian no longer, our ruler was, the president was Smetona at that time, I can't really remember what happened but he I think he'd gone, he left because he must have known that something was happening. We lived there under the Russians which meant we had to go to uhm we, had to learn Russian at school, so I learned some Russian for a while but then the Russians started deporting a lot of Lithuanians into Siberia and with the sort of job my father had, we would have been in line for it as well. So at that time then anybody, any of the Lith, Germans living in Lithuania and because we were born in a part that had gone from Lithuania to Germany and it sort of altered even the French had occupied it at one time years ago, many years ago
SC: Yeah
RP: And the Germans said we want the Germans to come out of Lithuania and into Germany so with my father having six children, six children by then, they felt it would be much safer for us to be in Germany so we registered as Germans because we were entitled, we could do that because that part of where we were born we could be either
SC: Yeah
RP: So we emigrated into Germany and when the war started and the Russians were moved out of Rus, out of the Baltic states and as you know the, the Germans went a lot further than just through the Lithu, through the Baltic states then after, because in Germany we were in a sort of a transit camp, spent a lot of my years in camps
SC: Yeah
RP: Because my father had bought a farm in the way when the Russians came and he had to move away from the border, he bought a farm so we could go back when the Germans chased the Russians out, they sent us back to Lithuania. But they sent us back then as Germans so when the war started actually, no it hadn't started but when the war started going badly for the Russians and the Russians of, badly for the Germans not the Russians and the Russians were sort of oppressing the Germans and the Ger, they were winning over the Germans because the Germans they’d spread themselves a little bit too, too wide
SC: Yeah
RP: And they started losing so of course as the Russians were coming nearer, we felt it was, well my parents felt it was safer for them to pack everything up and move into Germany
SC: Yeah
RP: And we were in a wagon and we travelled in, stopped in several places where we could sort of stay for a few nights. We stayed in Poland in one place for a few months I think even
SC: Yeah
RP: And I can remember while we were there, this is something that I seem to keep on remembering, and there were Jews there in a camp and I know a lot of people went to have a look they were hanging, they were hanging 10 Jews. I don't know what they were supposed to have done but if one did something, they just would hang them
SC: Yeah
RP: But no way would I go so, so many people went to watch it and I thought no. I was, what was I at that age? About 4, 13, 14 I think, maybe a little bit older but I just couldn't do that
SC: Yeah
RP: And from, when the, as the Russians, as you know the Russians kept coming further and further so we kept fleeing further and further from the Russians all the time because we knew what our fate would be if the Russians overtook us, we end up in Siberia. So we gradually moved from one place to another place every time the Russians came nearer and we settled in one place when the war started getting, the Russians and English, they were getting closer to each other and where we were, on one side the Russians were about thirty kilometres, the Americans and English or English and Americans were about five kilometres, so we thought well we are safer to stay where we are because they are nearer. But now this, the English stayed there and allowed the Russians to move on
SC: Yeah
RP: So we were overtaken by the Russians again. Now as far as any, the war itself, the bombardment and that, we avoided most of that because we were always in villages somewhere you could hear bombardment going in the distance, but never sort of very close. So of course, once the Russians and the English and Americans got together, we were under the Russians. So we, my father still, I don't know how it happened that he'd still got a wagon and horses and our belongings, we didn't have that many belongings by then because how much can you, you've got six children and
SC: Yeah
RP: So I don't think we had any furniture but we had clothes and whatever we needed mostly
SC: Yeah
RP: Uh we dec, my father decided that we can't stay under the Russians so we started to travel a bit walked a lot and the wagon, not very far but until we came, we stayed overnight underneath the wagon sleeping there and the Russia, there are some Russian soldiers came there and my father could speak Russian and he sort of started saying we are trying to find our way back to Lithuania, well we were not, we were trying to go the other way
SC: Yeah
RP: And fortunately they believed us, but what was happening a lot at that time as the Russian soldiers were raping women left, right, left, right and centre and my sister and myself we were sleeping under the wagon and they started sort of looking around and the man in charge says, leave them alone they're Lithuanians. So, once they left instead of going, they told us which way to go, well we knew which, which way Russia was. Uhm we went the other way and there was a field there which I think there were American soldiers there and I’d already, I went to grammar school and I had learned some English so my mother said to me go and talk to them. I couldn't speak a lot, but I could speak a bit of English and they let us go in, they let us through the border and that is of course how we got to be on the English side then. How my, my, how my parents arranged all these I don't know, it's really when I think about it I can't imagine how they coped, they found somewhere for us to live they, they found food when we could but while, I found while we were fleeing from the Russians there was this one place where we stayed there were some German women there. Well, we went through Germany that time and there were women there baking bread night and day so that all, because there was a line of nothing but wagons refugees and they were baking night and day to give to the people who were fleeing from the Russians instead of them fleeing from them. They just stayed there and baked, and we found, well, the Germans they were very good to us. I can't, can't say anything really bad but the only thing that they did is they kept my uhm, first of all they kept my oldest brother because he was 16 they took him in the army whether they liked it or not then when we were fleeing from Lithuania, they had stopped my father and my second brother but because my father had got rheumatism they allowed him to go but they kept my other brother and we've never seen them since
SC: Gosh!
RP: So once we were in the British zone they were just my father and mother, my sister, myself and my youngest brother. Yes, only my youngest brother, the other one had, the second youngest he had been killed by a, in a road accident by a bus. It was about a bus going about every week I think but he was killed by one of them
SC: Gosh!
RP: Because they were, they were hanging on to a wagon, you know how children do, they hang on
SC: Yeah
RP: And he jump, one jumped towards the ditch and my brother jumped the other way and there just happened to be a bus coming
SC: Gosh!
RP: On an empty road there's a bus coming. Anyway, this is why we sort of, our family we were just my youngest brother, my sister, myself, my father and and myself. And once we were on the British zone then, uhm this is something we were sort of in account, we kept on sleeping wherever there was any uhm space and this one night I know we were sleeping in a school room with straw, used to be straw just covered up with blankets and we slept there and some American soldiers came in and they were as bad as the Russians raping women and they raped several women there and one of them came up to me that age I don't know whether I was 15 yet, I was about 15. But I started talking in a little bit in English, all at once I became human to him and you know he, we just stood there and talked until some military policemen came in and he just jumped out through the window but he had not, if I hadn't been able to speak English it would have been the most traumatic thing for me
SC: Yeah
RP: I mean at that age
SC: Yeah
RP: And from there on we, oh we were overrun by the Russians again. Because the English and the, well the Allies really, they allowed the Russians to go further so we were under the Russians again and from there we said we got relatives, we got an address in West Germany that we wanted to go there and we were allowed through we had to go on to delousing and all sorts of things but eventually we ended up in a camp not very far from Hamburg. From there I went to a school, there was a Lithuanian grammar school that had opened so I’d rather had to go through Hamburg to the Lithuanian school. During the holidays they started recruiting people to work in England, first just in England my sister came to England then to work in a hospital. Then the following year they were recruiting again, I was too young at that time to go anywhere I was also at school, but the following year they recruited people who wanted to go to Australia, America, England and this, the grammar school I was on we were I think five pupils and everybody was at that age, the men they were about 32 then and I was about 17, 18. And a lot of them were going abroad, the teachers were leaving so the school was closing and I decided I was just old enough, I was 18 by then I’d come to England to work for one year, stretched a bit and that was in 1947
SC: Gosh!
RP: And of course, since then I’ve settled here, got married, married a Lithuanian
SC: Yep
RP: Brought up two children, got a granddaughter
SC: Ah, yeah
RP: And I’ve got, I’m happy here. Sometimes people say, would you like to go back to live in Lithuania? I’ve always said no because my family by then I was married, when Lithuania became independent, my husband had already died by the time Lithuania became independent
SC: Yes
RP: He would have loved to know it to be
SC: Cause that wasn't until 1990
RP: 93
SC: 93
RP: yes
SC: Yeah
RP: 92-93, yes
SC: Yeah
RP: And I know I went as soon as Lithuania became independent, I decided I’d love to meet my in-laws because my husband had got three sisters in Lithuania. His sis and all them, there were three brothers and three sisters and the brothers got away, the sisters were overrun by the Russians. So they were there and I wanted to meet them. So I went to Lithuania but it's just a pity my husband,
SC: Yeah
RP: Couldn't live to see that
SC: Yes
RP: Because my husband died in ‘86.
SC: Yeah, gosh!
RP: So I mean, several years after he died Lithuania became independent
SC: Yes. What about your father?
RP: Oh, my father stayed, my mother died, she, they both stayed in a camp in Hamburg
SC: Yeah
RP: And they spent their life in in a camp because they got nowhere that they were I think getting a little bit too old to work, no they weren't really because my mother was 53 when she died. She got cancer
SC: Yes
RP: We wanted them to come to England and they were in a transit camp actually to come to England and it was discovered that my mother got cancer
SC: Yes, you said
RP: And they wouldn't let them in and she eventually died in hospital there and my father he stayed in a, I think the camps would have had reduced to but it was still in sort of camp conditions until he died, he died 75
SC: Gosh! So, he was there all of that time?
RP: Yes, and my father was nine years older than my mother, so you'd have to work it out
SC: Yeah, yeah
RP: And I’ve settled in England and I’ve got a family
SC: Yeah. But from really quite an early age you were travelling
RP: Yes
SC: All the time
RP: From really I was, where I was born on the banks of the river, oh, that was beautiful for children that was ideal because the house was on the banks
SC: Yeah
RP: And we used to just go down the, down to the river and play and used to be steamships going past with passengers and used to wave to them. I had a lovely childhood there and then even when we went to Nida which still is the border town now between Germany, between Russia and Lithuania and there used to be a lot of holiday makers coming there because this was a lovely holiday resort. But from the age of seven, three years in Nida, then we got to Panemune and then we were there only about six months when the Germans decided they wanted it, we fled into Lithuania and that is
SC: Yeah
RP: Never sort of had settled life till I came to England.
SC: Yes
RP: And then I lived in the hospital for one year, one and a half years I think at the isolate, was the Isolation hospital then and turned to the Derwent Hospital then I worked at the Manor Hospital as in nursing there
SC: Yeah
RP: And worked at the co-op, got married [laughs] and that is how life carried on
SC: Yeah. Well, that's wonderful, thank you so much. I’ll pause this now for a moment.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ruta Popika
Creator
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Steve Cooke
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2018-08-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APopikaR180806
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:25:18 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Civilian
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Lithuania
Russia (Federation)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1945
1947
Description
An account of the resource
Ruta Popika was born near the river Nemunas, in what was Lithuania before the war. She remembers her family being forced to move eastwards and westwards from Lithuania according to the changing tides of war. Remembers the occupation of the Baltic States by the Russians. Mentions various episodes of her life as a refugee: German women baking bread and handing it out to the refugees fleeing from the Russians; the hanging of Jews; Russian soldiers raping women and being spared because she was Lithuanian. Tells of her 16-year-old brother being taken into the army by the Germans. Tells of American soldiers raping women and being spared because she spoke English. She spent many years in a German transit camp and then moved to Hamburg, where she attended a Lithuanian grammar school. Her parents spent the rest of their lives in German transit camps. Explains how she never had a settled life before she moved to England for work in 1947.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
anti-Semitism
childhood in wartime
displaced person
evacuation
Holocaust
home front
round-up
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/303/3460/AMcPhersonWhiteR150901.1.mp3
0e5df7f42951c97fd20e9aa7362cf89e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
White, Roy
Roy McPherson White
Roy M White
Roy White
R M White
R White
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. An oral history interview with Roy McPherson White (1925 - 2018, 3006061 Royal Air Force), his log book, Service and Release Book, and five photographs. He joined the RAF in 1943 and after training, served as a wireless operator until 1947.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy White and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-09-01
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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White, RM
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Stationed at RAF Yatesbury (No.2 Radio School),
RAF Aqir (No. 76 Operational Training Unit and No. 26 Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit), RAF Abu Sueir (1675 Heavy Conversion Unit),
RAF Khormaksar (Aden Communication Flight).
Aircraft in which flown: Proctor, Dominie, Wellington X, Liberator VI, Baltimore, Ventura, Albacore, Beechcraft, Mosquito, Anson.
Roy White was born in Perth, Scotland in 1925. He lived in Scotland until the age of nine, before moving to London, after he received a scholarship to the London Choir. Roy performed with the choir at the 1937 Coronation of King George VI and Queen Elizabeth.
Roy left school at fifteen and went to work in the fabric trade at 16, he joined the ATC as a Volunteer Reserve, before joining the RAF in 1943 at the age of 18.
Roy recalls going to Lords Cricket Ground on the “Hallowed Turf” to join up. Roy was accommodated in some near by flats by the RAF. Roy’s brother was also in the RAF, in Costal Command and was a Navigator.
Roy was stationed at RAF Yatesbury (No.2 Radio School), RAF Aqir (No. 76 Operational Training Unit and No. 26 Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit), RAF Abu Sueir (1675 Heavy Conversion Unit), RAF Khormaksar (Aden Communication Flight).
Aircraft in which he flew: Proctor, Dominie, Wellington X, Liberator VI, Baltimore, Ventura, Albacore, Beechcraft, Mosquito, Anson.
At RAF Yatesbury Roy could easily do the required twelve words per minute in Morse code, and had an excellent American trainer who could do forty words per minute, along as sending and receiving the messages. At certain times, Roy was allowed to teach the class, but was mocked by his fellow classmates. Roy also learnt about the different parts of the radio, how to take them apart and fix them, along with how to fault find on the radio. The signaller would receive a message every thirty minutes, on the mission flight. This message could be about the target, or the weather condition, or even to return to base. The radio waves could also be used to help the Navigator find the correct location. As the Signaller was listening out constantly for messages, he wasn’t on the main crew radio.
Roy also learnt how to take a gun apart blindfolded, which he struggled with but found useful. Roy and his best friend Billy failed the initial training exams, and had to resit them, wit the next unit that arrived. While waiting to complete his exams, Roy worked as a porter at the local hospital, moving the wounded solider sent over from France.
Once Roy had passed all his exams and training, on his passing out parade, he borrowed a uniform for the parade. His uniform was having his brevets sown on by a WAAF on the base.
As part of the Air Crew training for a Signaller to correctly use the radio on board. Roy had to learn about the theory of radio waves, and learn to complete different sounds tests, along with the PNB system test.
When training as an Air Gunner, Roy learnt about the different parts of a .303 riffle and did some clay pigeon shooting. He didn’t receive much Air Gunnery training, as he was to fly on B24 Liberators (the main bombers used in the Middle east) and they used .5 guns, which he didn’t train on until he was in the Liberators.
Roy sailed to Egypt via Gibraltar, as he was a trained Air Gunner, the ships Captain on the merchant convoy, appointed him Ships Gunner and told him to expect to fire the guns. Roy did daily four-hour shift, U-Boat watches on the journey.
When Roy finally arrived RAF Abu Sueir, along with all the other crews. They were locked in a hanger for twenty minutes and told to crew up for the Vickers Wellington that they were to fly. Roy joined a crew with four South Africans and two other Scotsman. The South African crew mostly spoke to one another in Afrikaans.
When Roy was training on Wellingtons, due to a fuel tank problem. The Wellington crashed on landing. Roy banged his head on the radio set and was in hospital for a few days. After the crash, they were assigned a new pilot. The rear gunner got stuck in the Wellington, due to the mechanism being broken.
Roy and the crew then converted to B24 Liberators, which he flew until he left the RAF in 1947. After the war he returned back to his pre-war job in fabric, before running a Antiques shop with his wife before retiring.
Daniel Richards
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today I am doing an interview with Roy White and we’re at [redacted] Haunton near Banbury and we are going to talk about his days in the RAF, about how he got to that position and what he did afterwards. So, over to you Roy, if you’d like to gives us your history please.
RW: Right, I was born in Perth, Scotland 1925. I lived there till I was nine years old, then I came to take a recital in London to join a London choir in Margaret Street in London. So I did join the choir at the age of nine and I continued there until I was fifteen. I managed to get into the coronation choir during my experiences there and it was a marvellous experience in actual fact then. When I left the choir I went to the Mercers’ school for a couple of years but I left there and joined a firm that was making fabrics and I was there until I joined up in 1943. I joined up and went to St John’s Wood, Lord’s Cricket Ground on the hallowed turf, we were actually allowed to go across there and we were billeted out in the flats at St John’s Wood from there and kitted out and all the rest. After we’d done all our initial pieces we then went on to Bridgnorth for our initial training wing, which was drill, which didn’t come as a great surprise ‘cause I’ve been in the ATC and we’d done it all before, you know, but the Morse code was alright because we were supposed to do twelve words a minute when we left there but in actual fact I could do twelve when I started, ‘cause I done there, but I found it more difficult with the, with the gunnery in actual fact taking 303s to pieces and what not there because used to have, undo the breechblock with a blindfold on and put it back together which sounds stupid but in actual fact the lighting was very poor on aircraft so in actual fact if something goes wrong it was quite difficult to see so, in actual fact it made quite a lot of sense. So we were there till about the end of the year 1943 and then went to the radio school at Yatesbury and we were supposed to get up from twelve to eighteen words a minute on there and we also did training in arms, we rifles, Sten guns, we did hand grenades as well, what not there to, general training, what not there and my best pal, Billy Wilson and I, when it came to the exams we both failed the same thing on [unclear] and so we had to drop back a week and join the next unit, which came as a big surprise for us because that unit had been marked down for overseas unit, they sent us home on leave again for a fortnight but we joined the unit there. During our period waiting for embarkation we spent a couple of nights at [unclear] hospital, portering the wounded coming back from France, the convoys and we worked all night during operations helping out which was quite an experience ‘cause it really brought it home to you what it was all about when you saw the condition of some of these people who were there, you know, quite difficult, but it was a good experience and we embarked on the ship and we, I’ve never been sailing before, I’ve been across the Isle of Wight, that was my total knowledge of sailing, we thought, oh, lovely, easy trip on there and we saw the sailors loading up shells and wondered what on earth they were for, the first officer came on board, was just walking past us and he said, ‘you gunners?’ And we said, ‘well, air gunners’, and he said, ‘oh good, you can be the [unclear] gunners for this ship.’ And we all looked at each other as if to say what’s he talking about? He said, ‘let me explain, we are classified as an armed merchant cruiser’, he said, ‘that destroyer over there will be looking after one side of the convoy and we should be looking after the other side.’ He said, ‘we’ve got two 4.6 guns on the end of this ship’, he said, ‘you will be firing them at some time’ and whatnot [laughs] ‘but in the meantime you’ll be submarine watching as well on four hour shifts’ [laughs]. So we started our voyage doing submarine watching shifts from midnight till four in the morning on the, dead man’s watch I think, we called it in actual fact [laughs]. So we did that there and we did actually fire the guns so [laughs] much to the amusement of the rest of the people on board the ship but so, yes so that was the voyage. Then we went to Aqir we were from Cairo, we were based there for about a week or so and then went through Aqir just started our training there and from there we went to the gunnery school at Ballah, then came back and did our OTU at Aqir and then finishing that we went down to a Heavy Conversion Unit down Abu Suweir onto Liberators after that, we were flying Wellingtons at Aqir but Liberators down to [unclear] and then after that we, came the end of the war in the Far East ‘cause we were due to go out there on our next trip but the atom bomb dropping, we then faced with nothing to do so, we got posted out to Aden then, to a communications unit there where we flew all over the Middle East, all over the Arabian continent what not, did quite a lot of flying there and did a year there and from there we went to 26 ACU army operation, cooperation unit and that was helping the army in Egypt, we were target towing to, for there so we did that for about nine months. And then we came home in 1947, and I got demobbed up in, on the coast, up north. And came back to my job in London after that.
CB: Ok, so when you returned to your job in London, what did you actually do?
RW: Oh, we were inspecting, we used to make rolls of cloth, and when we, they came back to London we used to inspect them all to make sure that the quality was good and what not, and then
CB: Then what?
RW: And then the firm split up, I went with one director and went with another and I eventually became the director of the firm on, you know, in London.
CB: So what were you supplying? You -
RW: We were supplying the wholesale trade, dress making trade, the fashion trade in other words.
CB: And so becoming a director, what were your responsibilities when you were the director?
RW: Well, re the stock and travelling as well, I used to go and see customers and we used to do the buying and what not you know for each year, ‘cause you are working six months in advance all the time, picking the next seasons, materials, fabrics and all the rest of it, you know, so.
CB: Sounds good.
RW: Quite a good job. Very interesting.
CB: When did that come to an end?
RW: About 1973 or 4 I think, something like that.
CB: Ok, so you were only fifty then, so what did you do next?
RW: Yes. We went into antiques then, you know. My wife had a hat shop and when she left that, we started doing antiques.
CB: Ok. And you did that till when?
RW: We were still doing antiques I mean we came here so till about, I suppose, twenty five years ago, something like that, you know.
CB: Then what?
RW: So we retired then [laughs]. We’d had enough [laughs].
CB: Ok. And did your wife keep busy after that?
RW: Yes, she, she enjoyed her hat shop and she was an extremely good French polisher, which very handy in antiques trade.
CB: For antiques.
RW: And she was very clever, extremely good needle woman, ‘cause her grandmother had been a court dressmaker, you know, so.
CB: Ok. Thank you very much, so now going back to the early days. How did you come to join the RAF rather than the army or the navy?
RW: Well, I’d been in the ACC [sic], my idea was to join, ‘cause my brother was in the RAF as well, he was in Coastal Command.
CB: What did he do?
RW: He was navigator.
CB: Ok. And is he still about, is he?
RW: No, he died unfortunately when he was about fifty odd. He had a heart condition and those days unfortunately there was nothing they could do for them, you know. Today could probably just put a stent on again.
[Other]: It was a different matter.
CB: Quite different.
RW: Unfortunately then he died but he was also very lucky because he was in a crash as well, in a Mosquito went up with a strange pilot because the aircraft had been in for an electrical fault and then this pilot said, would you come up with me because you weren’t allowed to go out without a wireless operator so they went up and after about twenty minutes or so went totally out of control and wouldn’t recognize any of the signals and what not and they just crashed on the runway and while I saw the pictures of it, all you could see was the radio, that was all that was left there and luckily, say luckily, he broke his thigh quite badly. And so reduced him to grade three and so he had to give up flying, you know, after that but the pilot was lucky, he just got nick out of his ear, that was all [unclear].
CB: Right. What happened, what was, did they find out what was wrong with it?
RW: No, as I say, it had been, I think, for an electrical fault so whether it was still there or what not, you know, is hard to know.
CB: We are going back to your situation.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you’ve been in the Air Training Corps at school.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And you left school at fifteen.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you stayed with the Air Training Corps throughout that period.
RW: That’s right.
CB: When you were doing what? You were at -
RW: Well, I joined the textiles when I was about sixteen, you know, so I’ve been with them about a couple of years.
CB: That was a company.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Ok. So, you volunteered, you were being called up at eighteen.
RW: Yeah, I was in the RAF for, you know, [unclear]
CB: Yeah, ok, so how did that go? So, they called you up or you just said, I am joining, I want to join up?
RW: No, they called me up when I was eight, after eighteen, you know, because as conscription after you were eighteen.
CB: Yeah. Ok, so what happened then? ‘Cause you talked earlier about grading, so at what point did you undertake the grading system for aircrew, because they could have put you on the ground you see?
RW: Oh, when I went to Cardington.
CB: Right.
RW: That was it, I just got the notice to stay and we were there two days, most of the first day was medicals and what not and then the second day was all the various testing and then we had a board interview with the wing commander I think who went through all our details and said, yes or no, you were suitable.
CB: And what sort of testing did they do to decide whether first of all you’d be aircrew rather than ground crew and secondly which type of aircrew?
RW: They’d give you some educational test and for wireless operators they’d just give the difference between different sounds, you know, to pick it out as to say whether you could tell the difference [unclear]
CB: Yeah, sure.
RW: But that was the basics of it.
CB: Right, because they had the PNB system, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer
RW: That’s right, yes, and I think they had different things for each of them, you know
CB: Yeah. And had you volunteered to be a wireless operator air gunner?
RW: Yeah, because they said, why do you want to be a wireless operator? I said, well, I’ve been in the ATC, I enjoyed [unclear] I want to be a wireless operator, you know [laughs].
CB: Ok, good. So then you went on to do gunnery.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And how did that go? So,
RW: It was quite good, the training was quite good but it was fairly short course ‘cause they knew we were going onto Liberators and because different guns, instead of the 303s you’re on the point five, so there wasn’t a lot of training for that because they knew you’d be going over to the other ones afterwards.
CB: But how did they train people to be an air gunner? What was the first thing they did, because you hadn’t been in the air before so what was the process that you went through?
RW: Well, just mainly the basics of the 303 machine gun, you know, to learn all the bits and pieces of it, that took the most of the time.
CB: And when you start, when did you start shooting with an aerial?
RW: Well, we only did a little bit of shooting there.
CB: Was that, clay pigeon or initially, or how did they do it?
RW: Yeah, we did clay pigeon shooting and what not at Yatesbury as well as Ross rifles, what not, we did all that sort of thing.
CB: What rifles?
RW: Ross rifles, Canadian rifles they were.
CB: Oh, right, that was shooting at targets.
RW: Yeah, that’s right.
CB: Ok. So they didn’t put you in any turret at that stage.
RW: No, not at that stage, no.
CB: Ok. Good. So the point you were making earlier about the Liberator is that it is an American aircraft so it’s got different guns and they are .5 machine guns
RW: That’s right.
CB: And a completely different setup.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But when you got to the end of the course they recoursed you because you and Billy Wilson didn’t get through, what caused you to fail?
RW: It was a radio test, what you did, you tuned up the transmitter to get the maximum aerial, and you had, you were supposed to retest it, to make sure that you were on the right one and not on the reverse signal there and it was one of the few tests that if you failed that was it, you had to, the other things you could fail but it didn’t matter quite so much.
CB: Ok.
RW: But this particular one we both failed on the same thing so all we did was just retrain for a week and retake it all again, you know.
CB: Ok. The reason why we’re asking the questions is of course people have absolutely no concept of what is involved in the individual trade specialities.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So when you came to do radio training how did that work? They started you said earlier with the Morse code.
RW: Yeah.
CB: But then you got on to using radio, so could you describe please what was the process of training to be a wireless operator?
RW: Well, you had to learn all the innards of the various sets, all the various valves and what they did and they went through all the theories of what radios waves were and how they worked, all of the rest of it, you know, it was, quite involved learning all of that you know, something new completely to me at the time and of course in those days with the big old valves and what not not like the modern things now, and it was quite a complicated business fault finding ‘cause they used to do testing, putting faults in the system and find out where they were, all that sort of thing, and it was quite complicated you know to do it all but -
CB: So there was a lot of theory?
RW: Yeah, a lot of theory.
CB: And then there was practical, so how did that work?
RW: Practical. Very good in actual fact I enjoyed you know Morse code for my sins the instructor used to let me take the class when he was getting tired, usually [unclear], used to start a bit of a riot with all the class, they said, don’t you go too fast now! [laughs] Oh no, so, I used to take the class occasionally [unclear] but I enjoyed Morse code.
CB: So, Morse code you needed to know because of the signals coming in.
RW: Yes, that’s right.
CB: And going out but what was actually the job of the air signaller, the radio operator?
RW: Well, on half hour used to get the messages from coming in, I mean it might say return to base or weather bad or whatever, the rest of the time you could use the radio compass to find out the way back to base and stuff like that you know and you could find your position by contacting two different stations and asking them to verify what your position was [unclear]
CB: So in practical terms you were helping the navigator, were you, in position and indication?
RW: Yes, in an actual fact, you could pass it over to him, say what it was [unclear]
CB: And did the navigator ask you to do that?
RW: Not that, not that I remember.
CB: Later on.
RW: But I used to pass it on to him anyway, you know, see whether there was any commonality [laughs]
CB: So you were teacher’s pet in this business of the training for being a wireless operator?
RW: I don’t know about that! [laughs]
CB: But -
RW: No, he was, mainly, he was on an American, he worked for Wells Fargo, he was absolutely fabulous operator, quite incredible.
CB: And he had operational experience, had he?
RW: Yeah, I think he could do about forty words a minute actually on there which was absolutely incredible and he could send messages and receive them at the same time, you know.
CB: But had he got aircrew experience?
RW: No.
CB: Oh, he hadn’t. Oh, ok. So what about the other people who were on the course, so they were barracking you not to go too fast, so what were the people and what were they like? What sort of people?
RW: Oh, they were great bunch of fellows, as in actual fact you know, wonderful sense of humour, all pulling the leg if they had to [laughs] but oh yeah, great bunch of blokes in actual fact.
CB: And presumably they had some kind of aptitude, did they, to do this work because.
RW: Oh yes, they did, in actual fact, you know, we all [unclear] in different ways, they all come from different backgrounds, all sorts of things.
CB: Had any of them got radio experience before?
RW: I don’t think so, oh yeah, one chap had, I think he worked for Marconi or something like that but most of the others never had, you know so [unclear]
CB: So you and Billy Wilson were recoursed.
RW: Yeah.
CB: What happened to the other members of the course? I mean, where did they go?
RW: Oh, I think they must have gone straight on over here to OTU gunnery school and probably onto a squadron you know [unclear] left behind, you know.
CB: So you kept in touch did you, with some of the people so -
RW: No, I didn’t, actually, in actual fact, you know [unclear], so I don’t know quite where they all finished up, but I have no doubt they finished up in a squadron somewhere round about.
CB: It’s interesting that you then being recoursed, you went to a different unit.
RW: Yeah.
CB: That meant you had to go in the convoy system.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Out to the Middle East.
RW: Yeah.
CB: Did you go around the Cape, did you?
RW: No, went straight, went straight through Gibraltar, a long way to Port Said [unclear]
CB: Right. Ok. So when you then got to Egypt, what was the routine then because you’d done your basic training including gunnery but you hadn’t done .5 machine guns, so what did you do as soon as you got to Port Said?
RW: I think we went to Cairo, as I say, for about a week or ten days, something like that and then straight to Aqir, to the base I think there, and then from there to Ballah, you know, to the gunnery school after that, they did that first to get that out of the way before the OTU, you know.
CB: So how was the training, how did they do the training in those two places, at Aqir and Ballah?
RW: It was mostly paper work, you know for the biggest part of the time, you know, in actual fact, fill in all the different bits and pieces that were there.
CB: And the gunnery, how did they do that?
RW: I’m not sure we did a lot of that because I think what they were thinking, we were going on to Liberators anyway so wasn’t gonna make a lot of difference to do that, you know, so in actual fact I think we curtailed it.
CB: So at what stage did you crew up and where?
RW: Well, what they did when we went to Aqir, they marched us all up into a big hangar, said, ‘right, we are going now, we are locking the doors, we’ll come back in twenty minutes, sort yourself out a crew’ and that was it [laughs], that’s exactly what you did, you all talked to each other and finished up going on to a crew.
CB: So this is crewing up for Wellingtons?
RW: Yeah.
CB: So you don’t have an air engineer, you don’t have a flight engineer.
RW: No.
CB: So, how did you -
RW: We had a second pilot.
CB: Oh did you? Who took the initiative in making the crew up?
RW: Well, you just sort of walked into people and said, ‘well, can I be with you’ [laughs] and they said, ‘oh yes, why not?’ You know, my name is Roy, you know [unclear]
CB: ‘Cause you all got brevet so you knew what your specialities were.
RW: Of course, some of them I knew but others most of them I didn’t know at all you know so because our crew was, there were four South Africans in it, you know, it’s unusual, you know [unclear]
CB: So tell us about who were the people there then, in the, individual, the pilot, who was the captain, the pilot, who was he?
RW: The pilot was a Lieutenant Van Sale.
CB: South African.
RW: And there was Lieutenant Erasmus was the co-pilot and there was a front gunner and a rear gunner, they were both South Africans.
CB: Right. The navigator?
RW: Two Scots, and then one Englishman, [laughs] that made up -
CB: So, did you class yourself as a Scotsman or an Englishman in that?
RW: Well, as a Scotsman, you know.
CBN: Right, ok. So, how did the others go then? Who was the navigator?
RW: Navigator was the Englishman. Yeah, he was an officer as well [unclear]
CB: And what was his experience?
RW: I don’t know really, in actual fact where he’d come from, in fact. I think like everybody else he just arrived at Aqir you know, [laughs] sorry I don’t know where from in actual fact but -
CB: The reason -
RW: We were all a great bunch anyway.
CB: Yes. And so you crewed up and you did your, you did then gunnery training when you were in the Wellington, did you?
RW: No, I did radio, just radio, that’s all.
CB: Ok, right. So you didn’t do gunnery normally, it was just a secondary -
RW: No, no, I was just filling in.
CB: Right. Ok. And then how long were you there at the OTU?
RW: A sheet somewhere.
CB: Because it took a little while to do all the training on the Wellington presumably.
RW: Yes, it did, in actual fact.
CB: Just looking at the form.
RW: We finished in June ’45 at Aqir OTU and then we went to Abu Suweyr and finished up in September ’45 there, just one day after they dropped the atom bomb, you know, so.
CB: Yeah, but by then you went to Abu Suweyr because of the Liberator?
RW: Yeah.
CB: So, that took more crew, so how did that work?
RW: Yeah, we made up, because, I don’t think I said but [unclear] the aircraft, as far as we know, a bomb exploded on board, I think it got caught up in the release mechanism and they were all killed.
CB: On the ground or in the air?
RW: In the air, you know and about three days later our pilot was told to switch over tanks, he switched over to an empty one, cut both the engines and -
CB: This is in the Wellington?
RW: In the Wellington, that’s right.
CB: Yeah.
RW: And so we finished up in a field on that, how he managed to control it I don’t know but -
CB: This was without an instructor?
RW: We had an instructor with us, thank God.
CB: Oh you did?
RW: So, yeah, so we finished up in the field and the laugh was I didn’t know anything about it because I’ve been on my radio ‘cause I cut myself off from the rest and the first thing I knew was my going straight into the radio thing front there and I was livid because I thought, what kind of a landing is that? [laughs] but it was a fantastic piece of work, in actual fact, how he did it, and I mean, we were just lucky to be over some fields, if we’d been over a built up area we, you know, there’d be no way out, but just lucky that was a field there.
CB: What did they do with the pilot?
RW: I think, he left us after that, yes, that’s right, got a new pilot as a matter of fact, so.
CB: As a captain.
RW: Yeah, captain.
CB: Another South African.
RW: Another South African, yeah, that’s right, slightly older so, so we got a different instructor, we had a squadron leader, the chief instructor then so.
CB: Interesting, so how did the crew gel together?
RW: Oh, very well really, considering they come from all different backgrounds, you know.
CB: Did they South Africans, because of their names, it sound as if they were Afrikaans? Did they?
RW: Yeah, they spoke to each other in Afrikaans because it was better for them, I mean they speak English very well but they tended to speak to each other in Afrikaans some of the time.
CB: But you didn’t mind.
RW: No.
CB: But you knew a bit of it after a bit.
RW: Not really [laughs], I had enough trouble trying to learn Arabic! [laughs]
CB: Did they give you courses in Arabic?
RW: No, just picked it up, you know, from bits and pieces during the day.
CB: Right, right. So you finish on the OTU,
RW: Yeah.
CB: You go to the HCU,
RW: Yeah.
CB: To go to change to heavies and you’re going onto Liberators.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what was the process there?
RW: Going on to Liberators, just getting used to, ‘cause they were quite complicated the American sets, they were very good, the Bendicks was a marvellous transmitter, they used to ask us not to transmit over the station because it used to drown all [laughs] communications in actual fact but it was very good, in actual fact.
CB: So now, you were just allocated other aircrew because for instance there was no engineer on the -
RW: Yes, I think one of them was off, Billy my friend’s crew that got killed ‘cause unfortunately they had to drop one out when the instructor was with them so there was one crew member left, one poor gunner left on his own so we took him on as one of our spare ones, on there.
CB: How many crew were there on a Liberator?
RW: Eight on there.
CB: Ok. Where did the engineer come from? Was he a South African as well?
RW: Well, he was second pilot, you know, Lieutenant Erasmus [unclear]
CB: Ah right. Ok. Good. Now some of the difficult things in the circumstances were obvious in Britain but in some cases they were also abroad. One of them is LMF, lacking moral fibre.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So, did you come across that at all?
RW: No, there was a slight bit of it because when we had our crash, the rear gunner got stuck in his and couldn’t get the turret to move, you know, I think he was scared [laughs] it was gonna go up, you know, without him, so there was some talk at the time that he was going to give it up but in actual fact he didn’t, he went back again but I think there were odd cases of people who did give up.
CB: And what did they do with them?
RW: I don’t know what they did, I presume they put them down in the ground staff job, but I don’t really know.
CB: ‘Cause in Britain they had a very firm way of dealing with them.
RW: Yeah, they didn’t like it you know ‘cause obviously it wasn’t good for morale.
CB: No.
RW: No.
CB: The other is the STDs, the sexually transmitted diseases. So how did that get dealt with?
RW: I remember that they had somewhat horrific films they showed you at St John’s Wood when we first went there [laughs] but I think that was their method of dealing with it mainly you know, in actual fact, but it was really all the confrontation we had with it, you know.
CB: Ok. Good, I’m gonna stop there for a mo. We are restarting now just to talk about some extra items.
RW: Yeah.
CB: So what about accommodation?
RW: Accommodation was quite good, you had your own space and locker where you keep all your own private bits and pieces, you know, photographs and letters from home all the rest of it you know and the food generally was very good, you know, we enjoyed it and what not, nothing really to complain about, it was really, really quite good.
CB: Did you get better food because you were aircrew?
RW: Yes, I think so.
CB: Even in training?
RW: Yeah, I think so, yes, on there. ‘Cause at a sergeant’s mess you know and what not there, so used on your own, quite decent but we reckoned it was better than the officer’s mess [laughs] so we didn’t know.
CB: So you had lockable lockers but were you in Nissen huts or what sort of accommodation did you have?
RW: Yes, sort of Nissen huts, you know, there, and yes in Aqir.
CB: So, were they insulated?
RW: Not really, because it was very hot, you know, all the rest of it, the climate was quite hot out there so, don’t really [unclear] much from there,
CB: No.
RW: But they were quite comfortable, I must say.
CB: Right. And in the UK, what about the accommodation there?
RW: No, fairly basic there, I remember polishing the floor [laughs] so corporal used to come and dump a great load of polish on the floor and say, ‘polish that’ and it took about an hour to get it [laughs]
CB: With a bumper and a liner.
RW: That’s right, a bumper up and down and one sitting on it and going up and down but yes [unclear]
CB: Now you started as an AC2.
RW: Yeah.
CB: How did the promotion system work?
RW: Well, when you finished your course at Yatesbury, you got your promotion to sergeant, used to be quite funny actually because what we used to do is borrow somebody else’s uniform for the parade that day and get the WAAFs to sew all our stuff on there so the minute we came out for our parade we could put our new jackets on with all the rest of us so we were all in borrowed, borrowed gear [laughs] when we went on parade then.
CB: And your brevet was what?
RW: Pardon?
CB: What was the brevet?
RW: The brevet, that originally it was air gunner and then it went to signaller later on they changed after about a year to signaller.
CB: And so you are now a sergeant, how long were you a sergeant?
RW: Till, till I was down in Aden when we took a board from there, got flight sergeant.
CB: And how did the pay change?
RW: It was more, I can’t remember what it was [laughs] wasn’t a fortune but it was better than it was before, you know.
CB: You knew where you were going to go when you left the RAF. Were you waiting to get out waiting for demob or did you just say, I want to be demobbed now? [emphasis]
RW: No, we just got sent home, that was all afterwards, no sort of forecast or anything, we just, we were 26 AACU, they just said, right, you are posted home you know and that was it, little or no warning [unclear]
CB: And where did they send you?
RW: To Lytham St Annes.
CB: And what was the process there?
RW: Just got all your civvies which we hadn’t seen for donkey’s years [laughs], you know and all the bits and pieces, got your vouchers and your travel warrants and all those [unclear] and I was due about six or seven weeks leave I think something like that, you know, so I didn’t take it up [unclear] but yes that was the end of that you know.
CB: So, the war’s ended, you’ve been demobbed two years later.
RW: Yeah.
CB: You then go into civilian life, having been in the ATC and joined as a volunteer reserve person, what was your commitment for future years?
RW: Well, I quite liked the job that I went to, you know, so I decided I’ve been toying with the idea I might stop in the RAF but I decided, no, I’d sooner go back to the textiles so, in a way I’m glad you know that I did, because I enjoyed textiles so it’s very good you know.
CB: But you were required, as a VR man, you were required to remain in the VR,
RW: Yes.
CB: That’s what I meant. Till what age?
RW: I got my release, release thing, I think all the dates and what not are back there, how many years I’m on reserve ‘cause they said [unclear], you might be eligible for call up in an emergency and what not.
CB: And did you join any air force associations afterwards?
RW: I was in the RAFA for a while not long after, played cricket for them, while, I enjoyed that in actual fact [laughs]
CB: Did you do much cricket when you were in the RAF?
RW: When we were down at Aden I played cricket down there you know, we’d to play the officer’s mess, we used to like beating them [laughs]
CB: Good, Ok, thank you very much, I’m going to stop there for a mo. Right, you mentioned earlier about the aircraft that was downed because of a hang-up.
RW: Yeah.
CB: And the bomb, were you in formation with that or was it a separate and what happened?
RW: No, we weren’t flying that day, we were between lectures and I just came back at lunchtime and as I say next door were just empty bedsprings, nothing on the locker nothing I said you know, where’s Billy’s stuff, and he said, haven’t you heard? No, and he said, oh, you know he’s gone and got killed, you know, I was shattered you know.
CB: This is your friend Billy Wilson.
RW: Yeah, that’s right, so as I say, we never got an official report, you never did with these things, but that was what we heard, and it sort of ties up with the fact that nobody got out, it was an experienced pilot on board, an instructor, you know, there were no survivors, nobody parachuted out or what not there so must have been something disastrous that happened you know, so that was it.
CB: So how did you all feel as a crew after that?
RW: Oh, a bit shattered, especially when we had our own one a couple of days after [laughs], wasn’t a very good week in actual fact.
CB: So when you had your own engine failure because of fuel starvation, that was, what height was that?
RW: I’m not really sure but all I can think was that the pilot had to keep the nose down because they daren’t let the nose go up, go out of control so if we were flying, say six thousand feet, take what, two, three minutes with the nose down, something like that so he had to find somewhere in about two or three minutes.
CB: And he wasn’t able to switch, he wasn’t able to switch the fuel correctly and restart.
RW: No, there wasn’t time because I mean he had more than his job, ‘cause it was a heavy aircraft the Wellington but to keep control of it with no engines it must have been a heck of a job, you know, to do that, just to try and keep it level and what not there and at the same time try and find somewhere you could put it down, you know, so.
CB: What did he say to the crew on the intercom?
RW: I don’t really know ‘cause I wasn’t on it, you see, I didn’t know anything about it, you know.
CB: You were listening out, were you, on the radio?
RW: I was listening out, ‘cause it was more than your life’s worth, to miss the messages on the half hour, then, you know, if you came back and your logbook had got no messages, so, what goes on, you know,
CB: So that’s an important point as you’re, now you’re flying, your role is to listen out to signals.
RW: Yeah.
CB: What did you actually have to do? You were listening to signals but how did that work?
RW: Well, as I say, it might be just trial messages that you think on there but as I say occasionally would be something like return to base, weather bad or something else like that which you of course you would then pass on them back to them on there so that was why they absolutely insisted that you got the half hour messages, you know, didn’t miss them.
CB: Because they would send particular messages on the half hour.
RW: Yes, they did on Bomber Command I think, if they had anything there had a registered time to send the messages and you had to make sure you got them.
CB: So we are talking about this crash, how, who else was hurt in the crash?
RW: The front gunner broke his ankle but that was the worst of the injuries, which is absolutely incredible really.
CB: And was the bomb aimer also a gunner?
RW: No. No.
CB: He simply was the air bomber.
RW: Yeah, yeah.
CB: Ok. So, thinking of your flying experiences in total, what would you say were the best times and what were the worst?
RW: I think, flying in the communications unit down at Aden was the best time in actual fact ‘cause it was so varied, you know, all sorts of things, we actually took an air vice marshal round on a tour of the thing, the CO called us up one day and he got a letter in front of him and said, ‘I’ve just had a note from the Air Ministry to say that they are sending Air Vice Marshal Sir Charles’ - I can’t remember what his surname was – ‘on a tour of inspection and we’ve been given the job of taking him round, so I don’t want anything to go wrong understood?’ [laughs] So he says [unclear] so we’ve, I’ve never seen so much top brass in my life ‘cause they all appeared, the Governor’s car turned up, his Rolls Royce and they were all involved.
CB: This is in the Liberator?
RW: No, so, no, it was a Wellington converted on [unclear] so, yes so, and a very nice lady officer with him as well there, which cheered everybody up but yes so we took him round, we actually had dinner together the evening which surprised me [unclear]
CB: He was a flying man, I take it?
RW: Yes, I think he was one of the top handful of people in the end, the chief of technical training command I think he was something like that you know, so.
CB: What was the worst experience you had?
RW: Let me think now, I should think probably the day Billy’s crash I think it was probably about the worst day of it all really, rest of it, you know, was bad, that was the sort of low point from the time but get over it, you know.
CB: Had you known his parents, before you went out?
RW: No, unfortunately not, no, and the worst thing was I wanted to go on his funeral parade but we were all on sick leave you know, they wouldn’t let us go on parade you know so I didn’t get the chance to, well you know, say goodbye.
CB: You were on sick leave. What sort of sickness did you get?
RW: Ah, well, I had a sore head [laughs] for about a week afterwards but you know apart from that it wasn’t bad you know.
CB: Yeah. From the crash. Yeah.
RW: Yeah, but they obviously decided, you know, to give us some days off.
CB: Yeah. Right. We’ve had a good interview now so we are looking at pictures and various things and we’ll wrap things up.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AMcPhersonWhiteR150901
Title
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Interview with Roy White
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:53:22 audio recording
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2015-09-01
Description
An account of the resource
Roy White was born in Perth, Scotland but grew up in London. He joined the Air Training Corps, went on as a volunteer reserve and then served as an air gunner in the RAF. Tells of his brother serving in Coastal Command and surviving an aircraft crash. Gives some insight in aircrew roles such as radio operator and air gunner. Mentions various episodes of his service life: training in England and Egypt; an aircraft crash in which a friend got killed; flying with a South African crew; being assigned to submarine watching and manning the guns on his journey to Egypt; towards the end of the war, being posted to the communications unit at Aden. He served as a wireless operator in Egypt post war.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Great Britain
Middle East
Egypt--Ismailia (Province)
Egypt--Alexandria
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Carolyn Emery
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
aircrew
B-24
crash
crewing up
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
RAF Aqir
RAF Yatesbury
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1112/11602/ASaundersR160616.2.mp3
b3356a853701a750fdd3e8f084c2f486
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Saunders, Ron
Ronald Saunders
R Saunders
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Ron Saunders (1923 - 2018, 1803753 Royal Air Force) and his obituary and memoir. He flew operations with 114 and 55 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Saunders, R
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DB: Todays’ recording is with Mr. Ron Saunders of 114 Squadron in Stowmarket on the 16th of June at 2pm.
RS: This is really just a brief history of my life which started off being born in a place called Ewhurst on the borders of Kent and Suffolk, Kent and I beg your pardon, Sussex and Kent, maybe you’ll correct that, it’s Sussex and Kent, not too far away from Bodiam Castle. At that time my father was working for the Gypsum Mines over in Mountfield, Sussex and the journey was a bit too much so they, eventually they built two houses in another village called Netherfield, to which we eventually moved. However for my short time there I don’t remember going to school at all unless it was at the end of my seventh year which was when I moved with them I think, but the only notable thing I can remember is that one evening, after I’d gone to bed, being woken up to look out of the window and all I could see was a black mass with lights on which turned out to be the airship 101 on its fateful voyage where it crashed in France. Apart from that, as regards an interest, even young of having an interest in the Royal Air Force or airplanes in general. I was always given toys with the someone would just balsa wood which had a notch on and you had a catapult and you just, every time it had the same effect, they all finished up on the ground after half a loop. Then they went on to stronger, elastic bands with propellers, again not very strong, the same result, nothing lasted really long and it ended up on the deck. However, we then moved on to another field [laughs] and there life opened up really to me. I was at the right age, my father was very interested in cricket, he was a captain of the local village team so naturally I was drawn towards him, in that respect, and from then on I never lost my love of cricket. I was also, talking back to R 101, I was perhaps sitting idly not far away from where we lived, one Sunday afternoon, I think it was a Sunday, and I felt some sort of change in the atmosphere, I looked up and there was another airship, this time with a swastika largely emblazoned on the fin or tail and this turn out to be Hindenburg. In both cases I’ve, many years later, sorted out whether I was seeing things, which I wasn’t apparently, and you could tell by the route R 101 took it would have come over where we were in a direct line to Hastings, the other one I think went to Yorkshire. As I said, we moved to this property that the Gypsum Mines who were part of the British Plaster Board had built which four families occupied [coughs] the property that we now occupied was situated, one would say, very nicely because it sat in between two public houses, neither of them very far away, but these were not available to be not only have been young but mum and dad were quite strict chapel which of course I had to attend regularly. But nevertheless the country opened up for me and we could go where we liked, looking for dam chicks nests or plover’s eggs and joining the local haymaking, going up on the hayrick, and laid in the horses and I never lost my love of the country from that point. However on rainy days I was able to go into one of the public houses with the publican’s son and when it was not open to the public and have a game of darts or perhaps shove opening or whatever was available at that time [coughs] I’m trying to do it in short verse.
DB: Yeah, that’s fine, that’s
RS: It gives me a chance to get a thought.
DB: Yeah, if you find it easier, that’s a much better way of doing it.
RS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
DB: You’re in charge [laughs]
RS: Yeah. Oh God!
DB: No, don’t worry.
RS: [unclear] either until I bring something up, that’s the trouble.
DB: Got it? [laughs]
RS: [unclear]
DB: Oh, Goodness gracious, I’m glad I didn’t turn up earlier for you.
RS: I don’t know what you would have done actually, left it till tomorrow. But you didn’t think it would be anything like this.
DB: No, I’m sure she didn’t. [unclear] for you while you cough.
RS: [coughs] Yes, I don’t want to cough.
DB: That’s alright, don’t worry. Don’t’ worry, you’re doing really well.
RS: It’s a pity about the cough.
DB: Sorry, [unclear]
RS: You have it? It’s on. Also at the time there were many false alarms and the sirens would go and probably no one would have even hear an aircraft and the manager of the shop was getting a bit fed up with lowering the shutters every time the sirens went and having to put them up again and people in the shop could go below where they kept all the cheese, the eggs and all the meat and all the stuff which ran parallel with the shop as a sort of air raid shelter, eventually though he decided he would open and he put me up on the roof, I volunteered of course, to be a spotter for if there is anything in the area to which I could then warn them and he would just leave the main door open. For warning purposes to the shop below I was, had a bell available at my discretion, to use as and when I thought fit. However, this came to an end when on one day I was watching contrails up in the sky, there didn’t seem to be any risk of any danger to the vicinity when all of a sudden, a bomb hit the Plaza cinema, the front of it, which in a short distance, in a straight line from where I stood, I disappeared down where joined the rest of them underneath, but that was the only bomb which killed the manager. But the manager stopped any future activities up there and not long after that I volunteered for the RAF although I had to continue working for quite a while because there was a [unclear] of aircrew and I volunteered to be a wireless operator air gunner. Eventually I was called up to the Royal Air Force in 1942 in September and we were, went to the usual kitting out place and from there we went on to Blackpool for our initial training, ITW, I suppose it was, here we had a mixture of physical exercises, a bit of general walking about town, listening to Morse both in plain language and in code and once you had reached the required speeds in both of those groups, you eventually were able to pass out for the first stage after about six weeks. You then had to follow on to the radio school that was [unclear] of you, which was number 1 radio school at Yatesbury. Here we had a bit longer, a small discipline [unclear], I don’t know, I was put on a charge twice anyway, I’m not quite sure why, now I will gloss over that but you were surprised you know, once you got onto a charge you had to be very careful not to get another one, or it seemed that to me anyway. I did go on the first parade near the guardroom, I put [unclear] four packs I was a very clever and put a blanket and things in the back, which made it considerably lighter. Turned up on the parade ground, the first thing the corporal did was punch the back of it, I suppose he’d had this happen to him or knew all about it many, many times but I was naïve I thought I was being rather clever. That produced another judge, anyway to escape from that, we eventually passed out and the next move was to Madley, where we were to do air to ground training, communication that is and we had two types of aircraft there, initially six of you went up in a, as I said, the remaining part of the course was to confirm the ability to communicate with the ground station from the air. We flew initially with five others plus the instructor taking turns at the radio sets. The aircraft was a DH Dominie. Next was carried out the same exercise, only this time it was just yourself and the pilot. The aircraft was a Proctor. To our collective surprise we were given seven days embarkation leave at the end of the course having passed successfully. In due course we were called up and on 13th November 1943 I was sailing on a P&O line, now a troop ship. My accommodation was situated on the lowest deck, namely H deck and was consisting of a mattress and a small base alongside for kit bag and clothing. We were soon on the move and we were joining up with a convoy, twelve other ships plus escort. Sea legs were required across the Bay of Biscay and beyond but eventually past Gibraltar and entered the calmer waters of the Mediterranean. So far the trip had been uneventful but it then changed when two sustained air attacks took place on the convoy. Being down on H deck, we can only imagine what’s happening and, happening above and listen very intently to everything, there was a barrage of gunfire, bomb explosions, bomb explosions produce sort of shock waves which came with a thud against the hull. I must admit that nearly every eye on the deck was focused on the one set of stairs which criss-crossed up to the various decks and that was our only outlet from where we were. Many years later I obtained a copy of the voyage report, which part of the captain statement contained the following: “the convoy was attacked twice off the North African coast, the first by thirty enemy planes using glide bombs and tornadoes and the second by twelve dive bombers. The Ryan seemed to be the target of the second attack and then four near misses, one within ten feet of the ship which splashed the boardside and covered the deck with oil. The ship was severely shaken and the pumps and the engine were in stop for a few moments”. We were down there, everybody was looking at these stairs, cause it just crisscrossed like that once. [coughs] One finished on one side of the boat, the other [coughs]
DB: [unclear] A little bit of information right [unclear] be great.
RS: Yeah. There were no further allowance and after fourteen days at sea since leaving England the Ryan entered the Suez Canal, passing the statue of Ferdinand de Lesseps, to dock a short distance away. Up early in the next day and packed and a short walk across to a station railway side. NAAFI tea and catering available before boarding the train to take us to Cairo. The journey from Port Said was long and tiring mainly due to the hard wooden seats and it was dark when we arrived at Cairo where we were bundled into waiting lorries which took us to a transit camp. It was tented accommodation, six to a tent just a pile [unclear] for sleeping. We were there for six weeks, waiting for number one course to move out of the newly opened gunnery school before I was able to pay a visit to the visit [unclear] and after that we moved hopefully to be our last part of the training. We were now heading for 13 air gunnery school at El Ballah in Egypt, it was tented accommodation recently allocated by number 1 course, and in which we settled in for another six weeks training. This comprised mostly of courses of ground faring and then airborne exercises with accompanying an aircraft towing the droves to the target in order to demonstrate air gunnery skills, we all had more than one trainee on board, coloured tipped bullets were allocated, so that individual markings on the drove could be connected to the individual person having fired them. This gave you the necessary efficiency to survive the course and at the end of it there was a badge, an air gunners badge together with a set of sergeant stripes which were automatically given at the end of training for aircrew duties. We were then transferred back to the suburb of Cairo at Heliopolis at number 5 ME. This time the accommodation was in the pre-war palace hotel, although all the furniture had been removed it was a pleasant change from tents. Eventually my name appeared on the notice board for operational training unit. This transpired to be at number 20 OTU Shandur in the Canal Zone. We travelled by train from Cairo to Port Tewfik and then by lorry to the airfield at Shandur. South Africans were also there undergoing training on Marauders. Before crewing up it was a case of travelling in your own category, training in your own category, I beg your pardon, and this involved flying in Baltimores, tests were carried out in Avro Ansons for gunnery and all went well and then it became forming of crews, which was quite a casual affair. I was walking along with a [unclear] when the pilot invited me to join him, which I accepted, meeting up with his navigator and upper gunner later. We got on well together and on nineteen occasions we did some training exercises before completing the course. We then departed for a week’s leave at Alexandria, we both [unclear] a house I think therefore and reporting back to 22 PTC transit camp in Cairo. While we were at Alexandria, my pal and myself found ourselves travelling and having a look around and in doing so we visited a street well known for the attention given to you by ladies, however it was fairly dark when we arrived and after hearing some whispering and shuffling about behind a barricade of [unclear] we decided it was best that we took to our heels. On one of the occasions when myself and my pal Jimmy visited the centre of Cairo as we did on several occasions after dodging the bootblacks as we called them, who’d threaten you with the polish if you didn’t have your shoes clean, we were walking along and hearing this terrific crescendo of noise, cavalcade of motorcycles came by as in v-shaped formation and behind them was travelling along was the young king Farouk and we had a good view as he motored on. After Alexandria, after a few more days at our posting to 22 PTC we found ourselves on our way to Naples. One morning we left for [unclear] airfield nearby, we were put into some waiting Dakota, on the way we stopped at, sorry, Benina and Tunis before alighting at Capodichino airfield at Naples. Things were very different. There was a general shortage, the children were ragged and starving and we settled down in a Villa Drusi I believe it was called. In the morning as a [unclear] formed outside of folk, young and old, waiting for anything that we left over from our meals. This was not uncommon and our pilots, at one stage where we had to be careful of thieves, he had his complete kit bag stolen while he was asleep. And the Americans would often have armed guards on the back of food vehicles. One of the [unclear] who gathered at the gates every morning offered to do my laundry, this was accepted and it always came back and she’d be rewarded with a bit of bread or something as well. She was very grateful. Not long after this, a squadron CO came to interview the pilot and the result of which were we were posted to 114 Squadron flying Boston aircraft, a medium bomber, American, operating at night. Not long after we packed our kit and set off to join the squadron, which was situated at that time at the American fifth army front at Tarquinia. Here we found the squadron under canvas and the first task was to surrect tents for ourselves in a field of thistles, which even [unclear] through the socks which we were wearing. An interview of the CO followed who explained the squadron’s duties and one morning I was roughly awaken and sent off with the advance party to a field which was at Cecina, being much nearer to the front line and the realities of war. With a lorry and ten days rations we slept under some trees which were mostly taped off as dangerous, in fact there was one who trod on a butterfly bomb and one of the ground staff later on, we also found ourselves that we could go down onto the beach for a swim, I more or less learned to swim there, however it was rather puzzling when after a few days we’ve been doing this the Americans turned up and starting having metal detectors along the beach, which we’ve been using. Anyway all was well. I don’t know how bad the danger was. 114 Squadron was a part of 232 Wing which contained also the Squadrons numbers 13, 18 and 55 and they were occupied in similar duties. We converted to Bostons, which took nearly a month due to heavy rain. In particular one heavy storm, at all four Squadron crews, ground and air, walking along the runway to dislodge stones had been thrown up by the rain, we carried out our first sortie from here which was bombing the marshalling yards at Medina, followed by a short recce. The main thrust of the Italian campaign was taking place on the Eastern side of the country where the Eighth Army were engaged in heavy fighting against Field Marshall Kesselring’s forces. We were set out various strategic defence lines as they retreated northwards. Once again we did another move, the crews were split up, the pilots flying the aircraft [unclear], our game was on the road party, the convoys several vehicles, sleeping the first night in the [unclear] post office and the second was Assisi. We reached Chiaravalle where we were to stay pending the completion of an airfield at Falconara. Before we left Cecina, we were visited firstly by Sir Winston Churchill, followed soon after by his Majesty King George the Sixth. Both were met by the American general Mark Clark, Commander of the American army. King George the Sixth stopped to walk along our lines but Winston Churchill seemed to disappear almost straight away. Chiaravalle was a very small town and the building we occupied was, used to house all of us was having a basement and a small yard for the cook house. After a few weeks with Christmas 1944 approaching we moved five miles to an empty building in Falconara close to the airfield in which we resumed our flying duties. We did our best to make ourselves comfortable and keep out of the cold. The first thing was to put in a fire and this was helped by someone from the MT section. It was ok when the wind was in the right direction otherwise we were smoked out. One item we were lacking was a wireless, so myself and a pilot from the same squadron hitchhiked around the area initially without any luck until we came across an army camp which was New Zealanders who were on the move home and they had a home-made wooden box set who reluctantly parted with it. Having a wireless was a great assistance to us and greatly helped as well by the member from the MT unit managed to fix us out with the necessary power. Our crew took some leave from here going back to Rome and while we were away we, the squadron lost a third of its crew, including two COs, which rather made us feel a bit subdued having not taken part in what obviously was a bad time. With the arrival of March, we heard that we would have moved nearer to the frontline and the next day the field we would have occupied was at Forli. Before we left Falconara, we carried out our twentieth sortie, which was a bit different aircrew, we were briefed directly on the airfield of Vicenza. The difference was taking off in daylight when previously we had flown only at night. Was a strange feeling to be so visible, dusk soon fell and nothing was seen but we were receiving some interest for the ground so we bombed the runway and went for home. For memory, the attention we were receiving from the ground was basically only one gun but it was getting very, very accurate firing arm piercing stuff which coloured green as you know.
DB: [unclear]
RS: Ok. With the rest of 232 Wing we arrived at Forli airfield were allocated with billet in an empty house on the main street, we set up our beds into red tents and helped with the mess necessary to be erected in the back yard. We were very busy there in support of the Eighth Army who had started a new offensive, many of our sorties were under radar control, one particular area where the army was held up near Argenta at 3 am on the 19th of April, forty-five crews took off at two minute intervals to assist for the breakthrough. For aircrew it was our fiftieth sortie. The area was a mass of smoke and the artillery were firing red marker shells to give the air crews and bomb aimers some idea of where they should be aiming their missiles, something like that. Oh, we are doing well now. Of course, did I take it off? Out of line of further twelve sorties, attacking ferry points, bridges, rivers and any moment generally we were then stood down. The day came and everyone joined in the celebrations which is very low key, as a crew we had been pleased, we were very pleased to be still around and thankful to the ground crews that had looked after us and in various aircraft. With regards to the ground crew, we often had a chat and a cigarette before the take-off and their reply on the V-E-Day was that the party of them we would a large floodlight down the street to a camp nearby parking outside the main gate they treated the Germans to a few patriotic songs. After weeks watching the German prisoners come through, the news came that we would have moved further north to an airfield in Aviano. Soon afterwards we flew in formation with the CO. And so ended the nights appearing into the darkness, throwing out flares by hand, dropping propaganda leaflets, and surrender invitations to the Italians. At Aviano, this was a large airfield situated on the Lombardy plains, well away from the road at the foot of the lower Alps. Our first job was to find a decent tent, wasn’t it always? And settle in for flying formation training. This was because the CO wanted to do a flypast over [unclear] in Southern France, obviously had some connection there, apart from that we did the old country exercise. This time Marshall Tito was making his demands over Trieste which resulted in the aircraft shuttling to and fro to bring the bomb ship, bomb dump up to the required level that may be needed. We visited a nearby village where local girls were taking care of her laundry and where local partisans were showing themselves probably more than they had done before now that it was at peace, theoretically and they were distinguished by coloured neckerchiefs. They were still patrolling in the mountains and at once I was invited to join them but I declined. On one visit we attended several of us a local dance and I was dancing around with a young lady who had a headscarf on and I eventually noticed that under the headscarf there was very little hair. To this end, I was apparently receiving the attention of one of the local young men and one of my pals tipped me off between dances which decided me that we would probably leave and we went back to the lorry and in due course got back. There was quite a bit of head shaving I believe going on in the village of the girls that had associated themselves with the Germans while they were there. One evening in the camp we were alarmed by a large explosion and columns of smoke came up from the bomb dump. German incendiary bombs had been set off by an Italian civilian who was severely injured. There were no camp railings, it was barely an open altogether so they were able to just wander about, though not many of them bothered to do so but he did apparently and the [unclear] dump for personal bombs was swiftly removed by many hands. And the same night we had a severe storm which hit the camp, leaving tents in a bit of a mess to say the least. I woke up looking at the heavens and feeling rain on my face. Sorry [unclear]. A few weeks later the CO pulled us all together to say that the squadron was now being posted to Aden and the other three squadrons were going to Greece. We thought then as we got the worst deal before of us. I was on leave when the main party left to go by sea but on my return I was put in charge of a small party and we flew down from Udine to Bari in two Marauders and we met up with others there who were still waiting for a boat. The Winchester Castle arrived at Taranto taking us direct to Aden. We thought we might be going to Egypt but we were right, we had to disembark at Port Said and go back to 22 PTC, we repeated the journey that we had carried out quite some time before. After that we waited for another ship which eventually arrived, I forget the name, which took us down the Red Sea to Aden and we joined up with the rest of the squadron at Khormaksar airfield. The squadron was posted there to releave 61 Squadron which slowly departed. Unfortunately a Wellington bomber belonging to them with eight people on board took off, circled the airfield, established radio contact, set off for Egypt but unfortunately nothing more was ever heard of them. Our crews flying carrying out ten more flights around the area, including one across to Somalia at a place called Hargeisa. On hearing the news that the squadron was to be disbanded and the Mosquitoes would be replacing our [ unclear] Bostons, we were to be split up into various duties in the area. In my case, I was put onto flying control, this included [unclear] the control towers at Khormaksar and shake off satellite airfield four miles further inland and two weeks at Masirah Island. When going into Masirah I travelled in a Dakota, I stopped at Salalah on the way, my only company in the, was a goat. I ended up then after that on the main traffic air control centre in the area at headquarters and then I awaited my clearance to return to England and demobilisation.
DB: Yeah.
RS: Yeah. The SS Alcantara arrived to accomod us for the return home, so at 1700 hours we were told that we had to be on board at 1900 hours, naturally we accomplished this. The boat made a short stop at Naples and then on the afternoon of the 17th of October 1946 we docked at Southampton, two [unclear] away from the Queen Mary. After approximately three years continuous service overseas it was with mixed emotions to see a double, red double decker bus passing along a nearby road. I was demobbed at 1 POC Kirkham Lancs and after that I set off to Hastings having warned my mother in advance. I finished up taking the milk train and arriving at Warrior Square Gardens at Saint Leonards on the train to be awokened up by a lady, grey-haired lady who at first I didn’t immediately see but this was of course my mother having spotted me snoozing away and being in uniform she was very lucky, I might’ve had to go onto Hastings otherwise and woke me up, quite a shock. But it was a lovely feeling.
Us: [unclear] 1952. [laughs]
RS: Returning home I didn’t go back to my job at [unclear] so I was in several others occupied that position before during the war and I finished up in RAC records office which was a place where, if they didn’t know what to find you with from the employment, they would put you up there and you filled a hole, I did nothing and they put me in a room which unfortunately was occupied by a bookie who spent all his time going around this very large building collecting bets. Nobody ever came into the room I did a few letters if I remember, but eventually got away from it and found other employment. Strangely enough this employment was back at the Gypsum Mines which my mother had not wanted me to go to at all, but this time I suppose she thought that I wasn’t qualified to do anything other than going down the mine but this time a friend of mine had given me the whisper that the current job was available, I applied and I got it and I worked there and I was trained by an ex-navy lieutenant who also had been demobbed and spent mostly twelve years there. At that time we were, where were we living, Doris? My wife, I’m just asking a question now cause I forget the answer.
US: Silverhill, I should think.
RS: At Silverhill, we were living at Silverhill [unclear] and we used to cycle something like eleven miles there and back, or I did, not my wife, with my mate too, who also worked there, was about twenty two miles a day, I put that down the fact my legs are still going there, nearly ninety three. After that I felt that I could do better on my own which was a mistake really. I took another job in a garage, also sold cars for hire and this sort of stuff and left there after about a year. One thing I should mention is that I married my wife Doris in March 1952 and in 1953 both of us with the two friends took a coach from Hastings central and went up to London to witness what we could of the coronation of our present queen. To do so we had to sit in the rain in one of the London main streets, I forget which one, Bond Street or Regent Street and the happiest memory was seeing Queen Charlotte drive by unexposed by any in a carriage, waving to the crowds whereas everybody else was in closed carriages.
DS: Lovely.
RS: You’re alright?
DS: Yeah, absolutely fabulous. No, that’s fine.
US: [unclear] in Kent, not Lincolnshire.
DS: No, don’t worry. Yeah, don’t worry. Yeah, no, cause I know some of the places as well, cause I, no, no, don’t worry about it, I mean they may not use that little bit anyway, so, it’s no problem.
RS: No, no. Yeah, that’s right.
DS: No, that’s brilliant, lots of little bits that they can pick out of that.
RS: Yeah, that’s right. They can actually do that then, they cut their own tape of it.
DS: Yeah, what they’ll do is they’ll take the bits out that they want and put them all together and that sort of thing, so, yeah, there’s lots of little bits in there that, you know, the whole point is to let you just talk.
RS: Yeah. That’s it, yeah.
DS: So that you just say things. A bit like your, you said about your friend and you going down with [unclear], they’ll love that sort of thing. And the little sort of side you put in and that sort of thing. It’s all extra interest.
RS: Obviously [unclear] at the same time.
DS: No, of course. No, no, no, that’s fine, I mean.
US: [unclear] well, I could have said that.
DS: Well, [laughs] that’s always the same, there’s always, afterwards there’s always stuff that you think of that you could say but I wouldn’t. [file missing]
RS: One item I forgot to mention was a fact that shortly after joining up, at Blackpool I chummed up with a Scotch fellow by the name of Jimmy Sneddon. One thing I could have mentioned which presumably is not unusual but I thought it was, was the pal I mentioned when we were in Alexandria and doing a walkabout, we actually got together when we were at Blackpool, we went through obviously not unheard of to do what you are training together but after that we were both posted on 114 Squadron, we joined up with two a crew each of which the two pilots had also trained together and this meant that we kept on leave, we were going together and all the events, and he was with me when we arrived at Aden, we travelled together in the boat then in the Red Sea, but he had a class B posting and was able to get away from Aden a few months before I was able to, but he was a good friend and we met up twice after the war, it was a long time afterwards mind you because we drifted apart and you sort of lost track with everybody but it was good to have someone like it on your side, someone who could deal with all the day events and go on leave with, talk about, unfortunately we smoked too much and I’m suffering for it. End of story. After becoming a sergeant, which was automatic in those days, I carried on flight sergeant and when I left Aden I was a warrant officer and pride to wear the badge on my sleeve.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Saunders
Creator
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Denise Boneham
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-16
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ASaundersR160616
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:43:53 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Saunders joined the RAF as a wireless operator rear gunner and served on 114 Squadron during the war. Remembers, as a little boy, seeing the airship R 101 and the Hindenburg flying in the distance. Describes his training in England and in Egypt at various stations and being posted to Italy afterwards. Mentions various episodes: the troop ship being attacked twice; seeing king Farouk passing by in a convoy in the streets of Cairo. Recounts various episodes of his service time in Italy: wartime hardships, the Prime Minister’s and the King’s visit to their airfield, joining locals at a village festival. Tells of how his squadron supported the Eight Army in the Battle of the Argenta Gap. Remembers then being posted to Aden, where he was put in charge of flight control. After the war, mentions going to London to see the queen’s coronation.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Egypt
Great Britain
Italy
Oman
Mediterranean Region
Egypt--Alexandria
Egypt--Suez
Egypt--Cairo
Italy--Naples
Oman--Masirah Island
North Africa
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
114 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-26
bomb dump
bombing
Boston
C-47
demobilisation
training
wireless operator
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1084/11542/APriestR160720.2.mp3
028c0b3fc5531bd6f4b2df0d75d32ef0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Priest, Ron
R Priest
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Ron Priest (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner with 149 and 635 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-20
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Priest, R
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DK: This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Ron Priest at his home on the 20th of July 2016. If I just put that down there, it will pick us up. Yes, ok, so just going back, if I could start off then by start, just ask what were you doing before the war?
RP: Yes, well, when I left school, I went in, sixteen I suppose, I went into a local solicitor’s office as a shorthand typist [laughs]
DK: Really?
RP: I wasn’t very good at it but I think the principal wanted somebody there, just him and me, when he went out visiting clients and whatever, so I stayed there some many months, it was only a bus ride away from home so it was rather nice and I could get home for lunch.
DK: So where was home at the time then?
RP: Lewisham, Hither Green.
DK: Oh, I know.
RP: Whether you know that way or and then I, some of my mates were working in London getting what seemed to be enormous money but because I couldn’t get [unclear] so I said to the principal that I thought I’d like to leave if you know, [unclear], he said, well, what have you got in mind? I said, I’d think I’d like to work in London. He said, well, I know a friend of mine is a chartered accountant and I could speak to him about you if you thought so thank you very much, there was no animosity in my leave, [unclear], so in short I got the job, but it was a big firm for accountance, about five principles and I was the office boy answering the telephone and getting the cakes for tea for the ladies [laughs]. Well, I did that for some months and then I got on the audit staff, which pleased me, so it was a team of us that used to go round to various places and do their books you see, one of them was Bromley, Bromley borough council south east, and I went there with an audit staff, that was rather nice cause again it was a bus [unclear] away from home and then of course the war came about, more or less, and my brothers were evacuated, ok?
DK: Yes.
RP: And my mother joined them as well. She was in a nervous disposition and she was frightened about bombing and so forth because we’d had air raids at night and so forth, so they went down to Ewhurst in Surrey, near Cranleigh and father and I were left on our own, well, my father was a works manager working in [unclear] not far from where I was born [laughs] and I joined him cause he said, you’ll have to join up sooner or later, join me on the firm and I’m with you and you are with me and so forth, seemed a good idea, so that’s what I did and then it came along that late 1940 talking to me dad, he said, you’ll be conscripted soon, it was something like that and he thought of the horrors of the First World War.
DK: Your father had fought in the First World War.
RP: Yes, yes, he was in the, well, it wasn’t RAF then, I wonder what it was,
DK: Royal Flying Corps?
RP: Royal Flying Corps, yes, and he was in France, so I said, I’ll think you ought to volunteer for the Air Force, so that’s what I did, that was late 1940. I went down to, think, Rushey Green, the shopping area and enlisted in the office there, the recruitment people and of course I heard nothing for ages and I thought, well, I must go back to them, and then third of March, ok?
DK: Yes, ok.
RP: [laughs]
DK: To see if the numbers are going round, yeah, ok, yeah, sorry, sorry.
RP: The third of March 1941 I got a note to report to Uxbridge which you may have heard of [laughs]
DK: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.
RP: For aircrew medical, so I had that and passed ok and then went to work with my father and we came home and went back the next day and so and so and then I gained a few more months and I got a note to report to Lord’s Cricket Ground, aircrew reception, number one aircrew reception centre and so I reported there and that day we moved off to Babbacombe in Torquay so that was my introduction but oddly enough, although I wasn’t in the air force as such, my date of joining goes to 3rd of March 1941 [laughs], so that’s how it all came about and the first stop was Babbacombe football ground where we stepped under the stand and then we got kitted out and then walked to, walked, marched, walked to Torquay where we billeted, that was the start of ITW, Initial Training Wing, so that was that.
DK: At this stage, did you know what sort of training in the Air Force you were going to do?
RP: No. I passed for aircrew.
DK: Yeah, right, that’s all you knew at that time, just passing for aircrew.
RP: That’s right, aircrew and of course we walked to some school I suppose and had lessons there, aircraft recognition, Morse training, did that, and we did and drill of course, but drill on the sands of Torquay [laughs] when the weather was kind. And that was the early days you see but you don’t want me to go on with the history of
DK: Whatever you feel comfortable with.
RP: Alright.
DK: So from there on is it, it’s interesting to know how the training came about actually.
RP: Yes.
DK: Cause it’s an important part of story, if you think about it is to how you’ve gone from a civilian, you working in a clerk’s office and go over to them.
RP: Yes, yes, well, we finished at ITW, which is about six or eight weeks and then we were posted to elementary flying training school this was near Carlisle, where we continue with lessons and drill and so forth, aircraft recognition, Morse, navigation, these sort of things and started flying.
DK: So what would you’ve be flying in at that time? What type of aircraft?
RP: Tiger Moths.
DK: Right.
RP: Tiger Moth, no, not the Tiger Moth, I beg your pardon, a Magister, it was either Tiger Moth or Magister, so we went on to Magister which was a plain wing, Tiger Moth was a double wing, wasn’t it? So we did that, I had flying lessons, and then we were cut short and taken to Heaton Park in Manchester, [unclear] great place a holding unit and we were held there holding doing nothing except going down in the morning to the cinema, having your name called and coming home again until we got a ship to Canada.
DK: Right, ok.
RP: And Newfoundland and then Moncton, Moncton was on the news a few weeks ago, some unit first training there, anyway that was [unclear], so we spent several weeks at Moncton in Canada then we were posted down to Maxwell Field, Alabama.
DK: Oh wow! I guess this was your first time you’d left England then?
RP: Exactly.
DK: Was it a bit of a cultural shock, Canada and America?
RP: It was too, but I mean, I was eighteen, nineteen so if there was, it was educational naturally and it was interesting, terribly interesting so we boarded this train, I don’t think it was the Chattanooga Choochoo [laughs] we rode it quite a while to go to Alabama,
DK: Wow.
RP: Alabama, Maxwell Field, now the thing is that we were under the training of the American Army Air Corps, now they weren’t in the war and instead of being an RAF body at home as we’d started off, we were in the army air corps, so we really started initial training wing all over again, drill, marching, we did have recognition, aircraft recognition.
DK: So were you commanding officers there Americans?
RP: Yes.
DK: Right.
RP: Yes, but there was a liaison then, ref but I don’t it was very good actually [laughs] so that was rather good I shared very good billets, I shared a billet with three other chaps, one was Michael Rennie, the actor that was,
DK: Alright.
RP: He got through, stayed up there as an instructor but and two other chaps, the police force at that time were releasing men to go into the forces and these three boys were ten years older than me, I was the sprog you know, I was really a nuisance to them if I might say it but I will just relate that we off the morning, about six thirty, we reckoned to be outside with the band to take us to the mess for breakfast, rather comical really, it was only from, no distance, two hundred yards [laughs]
DK: Was it an American Air Force band, was it an American Air Force?
RP: Yes, oh yes. And of course we filed into the dining room one by one and stood behind the chair until we got an order to sit. Yes. Very rigid army air corps as it was, you see, they weren’t in the war and we were conforming which was a bit nuisance really, as it turned out. So we were there some weeks, doing what we’ve done before in England initial training, marching up and down and so forth, but some aircraft recognition and things like that but all very involved because it was their peace time. We were in their peacetime arrangement you see and this was the real [unclear]. From there I got posted to Florida, Arcadia in Florida for flying trading on Stearmans which was a heavier aircraft than the Magister and I couldn’t cope with it, it was too much for me and I got what was called washed out, now dozens of us got washed out, which was a great mistake because we might well have gone on under wartime conditions in the air force, in the RAF but we ran the army air corps, the American, so I got washed out, came back to Canada after weeks [laughs] doing nothing and then it was a question of remustering, doing something else, well I thought, goodness knows how long I’ve been doing nothing really so I took the course as an air gunner, about twelve weeks.
DK: This was in Canada.
RP: In Canada, Mountain View. And I went through the course and passed out. Then I was hanging around again before we went to Newfoundland and then came home on the boat of course. Going out we were sprogs and we were in hammocks and a lot of people slept on the deck. We weren’t escorted, we just went cause it was a big ship, and coming back it was different because we were sergeants, so we had a cabin, did we, or shared a cabin,
DK: Luxury.
RP: Pardon?
DK: Luxury.
RP: [laughs] so we got back here and then one of the next things was to go to elementary flying training school and there we got crewed up, very haphazard arrangement as you may know, you just said, oh, that chap looks like a nice bloke over there [laughs]
DK: How did you feel about that way of crewing up, where everybody just got together and you formed your own crews [unclear]?
RP: It worked out in a whole, it worked out and it worked out for us.
DK: Cause it’s quite unusual, it’s not a military thing to do when [unclear]
RP: No, it isn’t, but on a whole it worked out. And I don’t know of any units where they crewed up in that way where it didn’t work actually, so the upper gunner and me, we looked around, we went over to this pilot and said, would you be looking for two gunners? And I think he had a look at us and yes ok, so we crewed up and from there we went to Stradishall with Stirlings.
DK: Can you remember the name of the pilot that you crewed up with?
RP: Yes. Bernard North.
DK: Bernard North.
RP: Bernard North. I met him a lot after the war and I was with him the week he died in hospital. We were quite very good friends, so we crewed up and he’d been trained on Wellingtons I think, so Stirling was his first thing.
DK: Right, so you got to Stradishall then.
RP: That’s right.
DK: And that was what? The heavy conversion unit?
RP: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
RP: That’s right. And
DK: So what, was that your first time you saw a Stirling?
RP: That’s right.
DK: What was your impression as when you saw it?
RP: Well, I thought it looked a handsome aircraft and I still do.
DK: Yeah, [unclear] pictures on the wall.
RP: Yes.
DK: They are saying there are still none around, isn’t it?
RP: Sorry?
DK: It’s just a shame that none exist anymore.
RP: Oh, that’s right, that’s right. I’ll give you a story about that one later on perhaps if you.
DK: Yes, definitely.
RP: So from there we were posted to 149 Squadron in May 1943 and when you consider that our official starting date in the Air Force was March 1941, it was two years and I’d done so and so all, do you follow me?
DK: Yeah, yeah. It’s a long period of time.
RP: That’s right. It was good fun in a way because I got numerous leaves and well, before I tell you about those, that was very good but that’s how we started off.
DK: So where was 149 Squadron based at this time?
RP: It was based at Lakenheath, it’s now leased at the American, big long run way which was needed. Yes, so that’s where we started our operations. We did, I did twenty five
DK: Right. All on Stirlings?
RP: That’s right. And I, we had a nasty trip on the last trip as it turned out and I went into hospital and when I came out, was back for duty again the CO said, well, you’re finished flying, Priest, you’ve done twenty five and we’ve cut the strip down from thirty trips to twenty five.
DK: Right, ok.
RP: They were losing so many Stirlings that it was pretty soppy, anyway that’s by the by. So I didn’t do any more flying then and then I went to Chipping Warden near Banbury as an instructor and that’s the way it went.
DK: So when you were in your role then as a gunner, what exactly was that? What was your role in there? You’re there on an operation, so you’re obviously the lookout then for.
RP: Yes, that was it you see, I liked being at the rear turret and flew most of my trips in the rear turret at the
DK: So you could choose then, you could
RP: The other gunner wasn’t very keen and he got rather nervous, if I may say that, he kept thinking he saw fighters coming when they weren’t there. So, this may I say, displeased the pilot a bit, so he went into the mid upper and I went into the rear one, I preferred that oddly enough because with the mid upper you were, half of your body was out in fresh air and you could fall [laughs]
DK: So you felt kind of safer in the rear turret?
RP: I did. Oddly enough, oddly enough, but of course if it came to an emergency, you’ve got to open the doors, slid them back, your parachute was hanging on a thing there, gotta get your parachute, you put it on all this time you see but then was the way it was, now I’ll just tell you about my last trip then. I could have made these notes but some of them are not too relevant. Yes, it was a trip to Hanover, it was my last trip twenty five, and we went out ok and over the target, well first of all, yes, over the target area, we got coned by searchlights and that’s a frightening thing cause it lights up the aircraft so you put all the bombs on the [unclear] and the pilot sensibly and very knowledgeably stalled the aircraft, we went down to, from fourteen thousand feet, which was ceiling at the Stirling, ours anyway I mean, the Lancs were up at twenty six, twenty eight and we stalled, levelled out to four thousand feet, now the thing is that we were well off course and the bomb aimer and navigator had to work together to get us back on course which we did but when we got into the target area it was all very quiet, in other words the main force had gone, we were on our jet jones but there were no anti-aircraft guns or fighters or anything like that
DK: So it was completely quiet over the city then?
RP: That’s right, it was fortunately, I think the fighters didn’t follow us down from the coned aircraft cause they thought we’d gone four thousand, down to four thousand feet quickly, anyway we had to climb up again to bomb to fourteen thousand feet which [unclear] up time and eventually we set course for home, we just about cleared the Alps for five thousand feet I mean Mount Blanc is fifteen and a half thousand feet and you could see over there [laughs] anyway we started homeward and we came across a Ju 88 going the other way. And we kept our head still, I think he did as well over the mountains we didn’t want to get into combat so we sensibly kept going, you see, and that was ok. Afterwards when we had our debriefing, we got chocked off about that, you should have engaged him, anyway my pilot said, so were it for you sir [unclear] [laughs] anyway now then we’ve come to the nitty-gritty, we get to the French coast to come home and I think it’s a known fact that when the crews got there they thought oh ok, famous last words [unclear] because you got to go over the North Sea and I was [unclear] to death about the North Sea, you think black’s black don’t you? But looking down there, you couldn’t see the sea, it’s just blackness, I was frightened, more frightened at that than anything else, frankly, anyway we were proceeding to come over the coast and over the sea we got attacked by two fighters, one, there was a second pilot coming for his first flight with us to get experience, he got his leg damaged from a shell and my pilot, who was actually flying the aircraft, had a shell land between his legs and go into the control column but it didn’t do any more damage than that but what happened was that, I was a mid-upper gunner this trip, one of the shells shattered my Perspex cover and I just got fresh air all around me. Well I fired because with the 303s you got to wait for the fighter to get in range to start with cause he’s got cannons, don’t he, you see [laughs]. We both fired at the one and he dived away underneath and then the other one came in and we fired again and so forth and he dived underneath. What happened to it I don’t know, we never saw it again. And we came home then, eight and a half hour trips, landed at Boscombe Down short of fuel, well we had to do that dive down to four thousand feet and then climb up again and got lost a bit, didn’t we, you did follow me?
DK: Yeah.
RP: Sorry, you chose, so we stayed there. But when I got out the aircraft, one of the crew said to me, what’s the matter with your eye, Ron? What’s the matter with your left eye? I said, I don’t know, [unclear], it’s alright, it was alright, ball of blood, and what had happened, well, the paramedics were there and I got into the ambulance quite straight away, took me to Ely hospital and as it turned out I got two pinheads, a fleck or whatever in my eye, miraculously missing the iris and I was in Ely hospital for ten days and eventually was the fact that two pieces were taken out with a giant magnet that came down on my head and then I came back to the squadron and that’s when the governor said, well, you’ve finished there, you’ve done twenty five, you’ve produced the tour and that was the end.
DK: So by that point your crew split up then, did they?
RP: Yes, but I kept in touch with my pilot, Bernard North and visited several times, at Chiswick where he lived and went to see him when he was in hospital and he died there unfortunately but anyway
DK: That’s a shame. Is that fairly recently
RP: Oh no, it’s going back fourteen years, yes, yes.
DK: Ok, right. So how did you feel when you were told, no more operations, were you?
RP: Well, I was quite pleased quite frankly because the last incident had more than bothered me if you know what I mean, I thought we were so near death and we were terribly short of petrol as well, I mean, Bernard North did a wonderful job of getting us to Boscombe Down, it’s on the coast you see, an RAF station there, you may know, so that was the worst day of the trip.
DK: Was that the only time you fired your guns in anger or was it?
RP: Yes, it was, it was.
DK: And that was, sorry, that was Hanover, was it?
RP: Yes, Hanover, yes.
DK: Can you remember the dates that was of the [unclear]
RP: Here, yes, [unclear] somewhere.
DK: Just for the record.
RP: Yes, quite so, excuse me aminute.
DK: That’s ok.
RP: 27th of September 1943.
DK: Ok.
RP: Yes. Our last stop the tour with Stirlings had been reduced from thirty to twenty five. It’s an odd thing that our aircraft that we flew in about fifteen times EF4711, it’s one of these.
DK: Ah.
RP: It’s on the ground, it might be that one.
DK: Alright.
RP: And if you can see it, I can’t properly.
DK: So, EF
RP: EF4711.
DK: That’s EF411
RP: Yes.
DK: That one.
RP: That’s it. I think it’s that one.
DK: Yeah. EF411.
RP: That’s the aircraft. Now that is reputed to have done over sixty, near seventy operations.
DK: Right.
RP: It was the only, that was the highest one on 149 Squadron.
DK: Was that the one where the incident happened at Hanover?
RP: Yes, yes, yes.
DK: Alright. So, you’re in the mid upper turret.
RP: That’s right.
DK: Yeah.
RP: And, it was flying originally at Mildenhall.
DK: Right.
RP: And then it came to us and we did about fifteen in it. And it went on to do nearly seventy ops.
DK: Good. So apart from Hanover then, what were your other targets?
RP: Well, yes, most of the targets were in the Ruhr.
DK: Right.
RP: Short trips, if I can say that, three and a half, four hours, Essen, Dusseldorf, Dortmund, the like, and almost uneventful if I may say, you could always hear the shells on the aircraft, like ice
DK: Yeah.
RP: You know, ice dropping from the sky, but [unclear] we were never bothered by fighters, ever, before, no. But I just got something as an aside here, it was a [unclear] factory by the way that we were bombing. On the 9th of August ’43 it was arranged that we were to welcome a group of RAFC cadets to fly with us on a routine air test, one of the group had been allowed to M for Mother which was our aircraft and he stood with us at the dispersal, waiting to board, at this moment we watched flight sergeant Cummings take-off on his air test with another cadet, he took off and with increasing horror he lost power, struggled to maintain height over a forest area, finally thus scanning the tree tops, he stood on his tail and went into ground. All were killed. Now, Bernard North said to our cadet who’d watched it, we’ve all watched it, that’s not gonna happen to us, it’s very, very rare indeed, I’ve never seen it happen before but if you don’t want to come with us we’ll understand. So he said, yes, I’d like to go and he did and Bernard congratulated him on sticking it out, being plucky. Now an odd thing, an aside to that is some years afterwards, good few years afterwards I had a call from a Mister Cummings in France, the father of the pilot and actually the official record of it is that it was pilot error and he said to me, what can you tell me about my son’s aircraft and the crash? I said, well, and of course some time elapsed for all this you see, so I said, well, we were watching what happened, and it’s our opinion and certainly mine that it wasn’t pilot error, it was a mechanical failure. Now the records don’t show that but I thought it would be rather nice to tell him so he said, oh thank you very much Mr Priest, that’s very kind of you. So I said, well, don’t bother about it anymore, your son wasn’t seriously involved in the mishap, well, he died but I mean, it wasn’t his fault, it wasn’t his fault, I thought that was rather good. Oh, further episode of that trip to, the last trip to Hanover,
DK: Ok [unclear].
RP: Yes, we landed without further incident, that’s after the fighter, and at debriefing he CO was critic that we did not seek contact with the Ju 88, next day the bombing leader of the bombing section congratulated Bernard on being alive. So he said to him, why do you say that for? So he said, we found no photograph of your target but we did find the flare that should have gone out lying in the back of your aircraft, when you stalled the flare, when you stalled the plane the flare actually [unclear] slid vertically out of the chute and landed on [unclear] and there was a, it was a rotating thing, he said, on inspection it was found that the vibration and [unclear] had caused the projector on the flare to rotate, when you left the aircraft, there were just three more revolutions before it [unclear], it was the aircraft so I just [laughs].
DK: So who said you should have engaged the Ju 88?
RP: The CO at the debriefing, the debriefing.
DK: Ah right. Cause I was always under the impression you weren’t supposed to do that unless they engaged you because you are drawing attention to yourself.
RP: Well quite right, it was only fifty yards away.
DK: Yeah, and if he’s not bothering you
RP: Yeah.
DK: You don’t want to draw attention to yourself.
RP: Well, this is what the CO said cause Bernard was quite upset about it
DK: Not surprised.
RP: And we were over the [unclear] Alps and I was, it was majestic flying over the Alps but when you consider that our ceiling was fourteen thousand feet, it wasn’t very much to spare and I kept thinking, crickey, if anything happens to us now but there are no more fighters, do you see?
DK: Yes. How did you feel about the Stirlings though because of their lack of ceiling [unclear] the Lancasters were at ten thousand feet above you?
RP: Well, yes I know, well of course it was really a pilot thing really, Bernard liked the aircraft, he didn’t initially, Bernard my pilot, he liked the aircraft and I think he was quite attached to it but it was very nosey, there’s a big long nose on it, I liked it very much. I did fly in Lancasters later on but I liked it but it got, it stood very tall of course and the undercarriage was suspect and very often that was a cause of accidents taking off or landing.
DK: Yeah. So on a normal operation then, how did that work during the day? Did you know in the mornings that you’d be flying that night or?
RP: Yes, cause you’d go to a briefing you see and you’d wonder what was [unclear] [laughs] what’s it got to be, I never did go to Berlin, I’m not, but it was mainly the Ruhr, about nine trips to the Ruhr, three or four hours, which was rather good in a way but it was pretty sweaty over the Ruhr, Essen, Krupsworks and so forth, all the way down the Ruhr, the Rhine, these factories and where all the industry was.
DK: So just before the mission then, your crews got together and then you go out to the aircraft and
RP: That’s right, well, you have a good breakfast to start with [laughs], a good meal and you go out to the aircraft and for a certain time etcetera and then you are signalled off one by one, quite a sight to see them all lined up and taxing and ready.
DK: And did you see much of other aircraft at night or [unclear]?
RP: No, actually never did and very often I was, chaps reported they saw aircraft burning or it’s another one down here but I never did, I never did, maybe fourteen thousand feet, we were below what was happening further up, you see, I don’t know, cause the Halifax couldn’t get up to the ceiling of the Lancaster but again he got well above us, yes. There’s one here, I’m not sure of the date and target but the weather closed in and some seventy aircraft crashed on return, many being diverted from base, it was thought that conditions at Lakenheath were just about ok and we prepared to land in patchy visibility plus low cloud and mist. On the final approach Bernard lost sight of the runway and he gained the height and clipped, [unclear] the height and clipped the top of bordering trees, the undercarriage seemed intact and we didn’t know at the time [unclear] and we made a good landing, unfortunately Bernard found the trees had affected his brakes and contact with the trees had severed the brake candles, the brake cables, we must have swing off the end of the runway at speed and we careened round the perimeter [laughs], fortunately missing parked aircraft and other vehicles. It then still being in one piece and called the flight control who said [unclear] get off the air! There are others there trying to get down and in more trouble than you. Who said the words [laughs]
DK: Yeah.
RP: It was a [unclear] factory that we were going to Turin. Three days later we went again, I think only Stirlings went on that, about two hundred aircraft.
DK: That would be a long trip to Turin.
RP: Eight and a half hours, that was the longest one, the first one was a bit less than that but it was eight hours yes. I think that’s about it.
DK: Yeah, ok. So after your twenty five operations then you went, you were training?
RP: Yes, you went off as an instructor.
DK: Instructor
RP: All the crew did that, whether you’re a pilot or a navigator, you were posted to an operational training unit to give your experiences to would coming air gunners or navigators or
DK: So you were instructing new gunners then.
RP: Yes, that’s right, yes, Silverstone
DK: Silverstone. Yeah.
RP: Silverstone.
DK: What were you flying on while you were doing your
RP: Wellingtons. Yes.
DK: So how did you feel about having all trainees?
RP: Well, I felt responsible in a way but I never told them details, I never told anybody details [laughs] but you just got on with it and you wondered what might happen to them but well, that was the way it went, you see.
DK: So you were training, you were instructing, sorry, at the war’s end.
RP: Yes. Well, no, the war was still on then, but perhaps foolishly I don’t know I palled up with a good pilot at Silverstone while instructing and I think, like so many aircrew that had done a tour, they wanted to get back again, which was pretty soppy and of course some of them did another tour, some of them didn’t. Some of them went and did, our wireless op, went on special duties and he died some years ago, long time ago and I read his obituary in the paper, ninety three ops he did all together cause he did five, twenty five with us and then dropping supplies and agents and so forth. Pretty arduous really cause you couldn’t hang about long when you got down to let the men out or pick somebody up
DK: Can you remember his name, the wireless operator?
RP: Rowley.
DK: Rowley.
RP: Rowley. He was a printer in the old-fashioned way.
DK: Yeah.
RP: Printer, Sid Rowley, yes.
DK: So you met up with his pilot at Silverstone.
RP: Yes. I did [laughs] We were going to do another tour. So he was a Wellington man and he hadn’t been on Stirlings or Lancasters so we had to go on a course, we all went on this course, we picked up other navigator and bomb aimer and so forth and we went up to North Lincolnshire for, Wigsley, North Lincolnshire to a course on Lancasters cause he hadn’t flown Lanc and then we went down to 635 Squadron which was the sister squadron of 617 actually but that’s by and by and we were operational then, flying all together operational training, and then the bomb was dropped but we were part of the Tiger Force, Tiger Force to go and bomb Japan.
DK: So what was your feelings when you knew the war ended rather suddenly and you weren’t going out to the Far East? How did you feel about that?
RP: Well, really, I was quite relieved, quite relieved, and then of course, with so many aircrew not needed any more, we went up to a station called Burn near Selby which [unclear] the weeks on end being interviewed as to what we might be suitable for and because I’d been in accountance, I went on an accountance course, I’ve got commissioned by the way while I was on the squadron cause I went on a gunnery course and did very well. And they said, well you Priest, we haven’t got a lot of commissioned air gunners, we want to put you anyway [unclear], anyway I took it on. But greatly relieved when the big bomb was dropped and that was it you see. But we got to Burn and we had wait there and hang about, have interviews, see what we might be suitable for and I was put to accountance and then end of January I got, I was due for demob more or less in the August, so I was quite amazed to get an overseas posting and we were going to get married at Easter [laughs] and I was posted to North Africa, Cairo initially at group headquarters and then went up to a little station called Benina, Benina in Libya, Libya, and I was accountant officer there for some many months, perhaps nearly a year and then I got re-stationed at El Adem, which was Gaddafi’s principal airport, a very lovely place, specially built, well, Italians specially built billets and so forth, and I did that until I eventually got demob leave and came home, demobbed in [unclear] 2nd August [laughs].
DK: So what was your career after the RAF then?
RP: Yes, that was very thoughtful, yes. Well, I mean, I spent six years in the Air Force, I was only a glorified good office boy before I went in but I went for a couple of jobs and I could have got either one and I decided on one which was to work for the Co-operative Permanent building society, that was what it was called then, changed its name to Nationwide later on and I got taken on there as a clerk cashier and worked on head office counter which was rather prestigious actually at New Oxford House not far from Holborn tube station and from there I went to Portsmouth and then to Chester as assistant manager and then to Peterborough, my own branch which eventually was engulfed in a fire, we’d only been in it seven months, terrific fire, got the photographs and I stayed in Peterborough quite a time cause I had changes of office, moved about and I found a very nice place on Long Causeway which was being vacated by what was then almost a supermarket, Home and Colonial I think it was, and I told my people that this property was available to us, it was opposite the opening to Queensway, the internal thing so it was well positioned, Long Causeway, do you know Peterborough?
DK: Yes.
RP: Not too. [unclear] Not been here [unclear]
DK: Getting to die better.
RP: Yes, so I got this, I found this spot being vacated and I wrote to my people, in touch with my people and said this will make a good office, situation, location from where we are now, that was after the fire and my governor, the big man came down and walked around it, there was a big area at the back for parking of cars and there was a letting available upstairs and he said, it’s over four hundred pounds at that price, the board will never pay that, they’ll never, anyway they did and it’s a very popular office now although I say I got in there and we worked it up and then eventually our last seven years I went to Luton and was manager there with Dunstable and Hitchin and [unclear] as well and I didn’t like Luton very much but anyway it was financially ok and promotion that’s where I stayed for seven years and then retired 1984 [laughs].
DK: So after all these years then, looking back on your period in the RAF, particularly in Bomber Command, how do you feel about it looking back now?
RP: Yes. Well, I, I know you see I was involved with the Hamburg bombing, three times in four nights, Hamburg, and I mean, it is quite an effort to get there and do any bombing, let alone whatever. I reflected and my pilot did of all the people we’d killed, certainly in Hamburg, and I was sorry about that but I felt I’d made a contribution, you see, my daughter said to me, when you’re sitting in the turret and whatever and so, what are you thinking about? Well I said, I was excited, I was,
DK: Ok. Just make sure that we got enough tape there.
RP: [laughs] I said I was excited as a young man and you were thrilled because you thought I had to do, bomb, they bombed Coventry and [unclear] didn’t they? [laughs] So I was pleased with what I’ve done although I regret it. The terrible tragedy of killing so many people because it developed in the end of 1943 into area bombing, the idea was of course to frighten the death out of the population which never occurred, the same with the Battle of Britain, you know, people at home, [unclear], you know, didn’t they? Sorry all this [laughs]
DK: It’s ok. Alright, it’s alright. No, ok, still going, yeah, ok.
RP: So, I was pleased with my performance and when I look back on it and I’ve written my life story and given it to Angela, it’s short of certain material that I ought to remember, I’ve remembered but it is my own hand writing, she talks about getting it printed.
DK: Is Angela your daughter?
RP: Yes.
DK: Right, ok.
RP: But I felt, no, I don’t want it, it’s for my daughter, but particularly for my grandson and my great granddaughter cause know something about me, so I’m happy about that.
DK: So were you on all of the Hamburg raids or?
RP: Yes, well the Americans went there during the day, just to make matters worse or whatever.
DK: So you went on three
RP: Three in four nights, that’s pretty sweaty, three in four nights but of course it was a terrible thing, I mean we carried incendiaries in the main, in the [unclear] but of course as you probably know there was a very hot, humid day like we’ve had here the last three days and the wind got up and aggravated the fires, there was some massive firestorm right through the city, terrible, people dying in the streets, so we were told.
DK: But you wouldn’t have been aware of this at the time though [unclear]
RP: Oh no, oh no, no, no.
DK: And when you are having these briefings before the operation
RP: Yes.
DK: Was it clear as to what your targets were, was it like the centre of the city or
RP: Oh yes, oh yes, well, we were given
DK: They were quite up front about you hitting the city
RP: Yes, well, yes they were quite up front what the aiming point was, oh yes, it’s a very full briefing and of course you got the route mapped out to avoid fighters and so on and so forth, didn’t always work cause on the Nuremberg raid, which I wasn’t on thank goodness, we’d lost nearly a hundred aircraft, we lost over ninety on the occasion itself, let alone what we lost landing and all that, that was terrible, badly arranged.
DK: Was a straight line, was in straight, directly
RP: Well no, and up front you see, they were diversion raids, a small force would attack something near the target or just off the line of the target to induce people to, the enemy to think that’s where it was gonna be, you see, where it was, it’s gonna be there.
DK: So the Hamburg raid then, that was the first time they used Window, wasn’t it?
RP: Yes it was, it was.
DK: So do you remember anything about the drops of Window?
RP: Well, that was, the wireless op sent Rowley to drop the Window every so often and
DK: Was it explained to you before the Hamburg raid what Window would do?
RP: Oh yes, exactly, what it was going to do and it worked.
DK: Disrupt the radar.
RP: And it worked subsequently afterwards. I think we got it in mind for some time but we were frightened that the Germans would use it back on us because it wasn’t, you know, it was an understandable exercise these strips of paper, like making a Christmas decoration, you know, like that, [unclear], all in bundles, I’ve chucked it out and
DK: So when it came to the third Hamburg raid, how did you feel about that when you were going again?
RP: Well, it was a rotten night and I don’t’ think we should have gone because the damage had been really done and of course usually after a raid Mosquitoes go over and take photographs so we jolly well knew what we’d done, so I think it was superfluous really and it was a rotten night for weather and I know we got caught in an electrical storm, [unclear] lights flashing all over the aircraft, which frightened one a bit [laughs], yes.
DK: So you look back now, you said you spoke to your pilot about looking back at the
RP: Oh yes.
DK: What was his feelings on
RP: Oh, his feelings were deeper than mine, he regretted a lot of the raids that he went on, I mean when you went to, we went to France a couple of times, Montlucon, which was a Dunlop rubber factory, I mean, that’s what you were going for, you know that was understandable you see but the area bombing, in other words if anything got in our way, it was hard luck, wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
RP: I’ m afraid to say that. Yes.
DK: Ok.
RP: I’ve said enough.
DK: I was gonna say, I could listen to you for hours but I’m
RP: Oh, I’ve had a year, I’ve had an hour.
DK: I’m more concerned about yourself but let’s, I’ll stop it there if that’s ok.
RP: Yes. I’ve got one or two things perhaps to show you.
DK: Ok, let me just
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Priest
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-20
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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APriestR160720
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:57:52 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Priest worked in accountancy before the war and then served as a rear gunner, flying twenty five operations with 149 Squadron from RAF Lakenheath all on Stirlings. Describes his training in England, Canada and the United States, under the American Army Air Corps; a first-hand account of a crash landing; dogfights over the North Sea; witnessing a plane crash, initially attributed to pilot error, but later on confirmed to be caused by a mechanical failure. Remembers his last operation to Hanover, where they crossed an enemy aircraft on their way back without engaging it in combat and being reprimanded for that later at the debriefing. Remembers flying three operations on Hamburg in four nights and expresses his views on area bombing. Mentions the use of Window in the Hamburg operation. Remembers being posted at the end of the war to Libya, where he served as an accountant officer. Tells of his life after the war.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
United States
Alabama--Montgomery
England--Northamptonshire
England--Suffolk
Florida--Arcadia
Germany--Hamburg
Germany--Hannover
Florida
Alabama
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1941-03-03
1943-09-27
149 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
crash
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Magister
perception of bombing war
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Silverstone
RAF Stradishall
Stearman
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/794/10776/ADawsonR171107.2.mp3
8ad9cef294f74f5a98b99c14641317ab
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Dawson, Ron
R Dawson
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Ron Dawson (1684989 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as an air gunner.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-17
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Dawson, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
JM: This interview is being conducted for the international Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is Ron Dawson, flight sergeant, later warrant officer. The interview is taking place at Ron’s house in Stafford on the 7th of November 2017. Ron, would you start us off by telling us a little bit about your family background please?
RD: Yes. Well, I was the, there was four of us in the family and I was the, my brother was four years older than me and then I had two sisters, four years and five years older than, younger than me. And we lived in a terraced, small terraced house and from there I, when I was sixteen and a half, when I was sixteen I joined the Air Training Corps and then the Air Training Corps I trained to be air gunner and strange as it may seem, my schoolfriend, who we went training on bomber pilot, he changed, he became and we were training as air gunners together. And we trained, and you did your air gunnery course which was an exciting course because you did flying on different aircraft, we did Anson aircraft which had a turret behind the pilot and of course being a gunner, that was ideal and they used to, an aircraft coming along, towing a windsock and we used to fire the guns at the windsock and then my pal joined up and we got in this air gunnery course together and then we went to, when it was all finished, we went to an airfield in Leicester, there was hundreds of different people, pilots, bomb aimers, navigators, and the pilot was trying to get a crew together and he was walking along and talking and with me, he said, he came over, he said, tell me, who are you? I said I told him my age, who I was and he said, what do you want to be? I said, a rear gunner. Oh, he said, I am looking for a rear gunner for my crew and I said, wonder of wonders, my pal, who gave up Bomber Command, gave up pilot and navigator course and we are on the course together and we did a gunnery course, flying an Anson aircraft with a turret, and then in a Boulton Paul Defiant, which was a fighter aircraft, and it was, it had a turret, and it was exciting. And then we all met in this very large room at the airport of Leicester and this man came to me and he said, can you tell me who are you? Well, I said, Ron Dawson, and he said, what did you train? I said, I’ve been trained as an air gunner, oh, he said, I’m a pilot, and he was Australian. And he said, I’m a pilot, I’m looking for a gunner, I said, well a rear gunner, he said, that’s fine and I said, my pal who managed to get the same course, we did the gunnery course together, and I said, I joined up with the pilot, the navigator and other people and we flew. In the early days, we flew in the, the old aircraft called the Whitley, it’s nickname was the flying coffin, because it was square shaped like a coffin and it flew nose down and I did a couple of operations over Europe in that dropping, one was dropping leaflets and the other one was dropping bombs. And then I got together and we were, we were recruited to, as a crew, doing raids on different parts of Germany, Leipzig, Magdeburg, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Berlin and I said it’s, it was exciting going to these different places and I said it was exciting to see the aircraft fighting in the sky, the Germans firing at us and I said twice, on, once on a trip we were attacked by the German aircraft and he fired his guns at us but he never hit us and another time we were there they came and he, the aircraft attacked us and he shot us up, shot the backend of the plane and we had trouble with the mechanics to control the aircraft and we had to land at a [unclear] in Norfolk which was controlled by the Americans and we landed there because there was some difficulty with the mechanics of the aircraft and in controlling it and they had a runway over a mile long which enabled us to control our aircraft and stop and then another time we were shot up and we had to land and we landed at an American Air Force base and I remember the American coming to me and saying, are you RAF? I said, yes, I am, I’m an air gunner, rear gunner, oh, he said, and where [unclear], I said, this is my aircraft, my God, he said, it’s all bullet holes, I said, yes, fortunately none of them have hit us and I said, and another time, we got shot up and then I said, I was flying coming back from Germany on a raid, and we got attacked and we got, we had to bail out, I said, we were over twenty thousand feet and I said it was almost laughable when I was, I said, I went forward the aircraft, you, normally I would drop out the, out the rear turret, backwards, with me parachute on, but if we could we all went out the front so the pilot could count the crew had got out and I said, I bailed out of there the front and I said, we were twenty thousand feet and I said, it was, it was unique, I said and, I said I was, we carried a whistle so that if you ever come down in the sea, you don’t have to shout, you blow the whistle and attract attention and I said, I was blowing my whistle and I was shouting hello! This is Ronnie, this is Ronnie, is calling everybody, hello! And I said I was [unclear] down some twenty thousand feet and I said, I landed and I, immediately I could see my aircraft which had crashed and was burning and I turned my back on it and started to run away and I got, I was hiding up and I was hiding in these bushes, I had no idea where I was, except I thought I was in Germany and I said I, it was coming daylight and I got into these bushes and I looked out cause I heard a dog barking and I thought, they’ve got the dogs on me tail and then I looked up, it was getting late, and I could see these crossroads and the crossroads had signposts there, the Germans never took the sign posts down, so there was a little farmhouse nearby and I saw this farm and this dog was really [unclear] barking and when he disappeared I went out to look at the crossroads to see where I was. And the first words that stuck out in me mind was Luxembourg and I thought, oh, I’ll just go back and hide, now I know where I am and, but the dog started barking again, I thought if I go back and hide in the bushes, the farmer will, I don’t know whether he’s good, bad or indifferent, but I said, I walked into the village, and I said, it’s a mystery of mysteries, about eight to ten children came from nowhere, told them to call [unclear] through the village and no sooner we’d done about twenty yards, then the sirens went and the children disappeared and I turned the first corner and it ended into a little wood and I said, I got my maps out cause I’ve read the signpost and I found where I was and I thought, good, and I was told in, when I was in training, if you get shot down and you come near Switzerland, that’s a neutral country, it’s a good country to get to if you can but the Germans smothered the border to stop anybody trying to escape so I said, I made me mind up, I was in Luxembourg and I’d walk across France and across Spain because Spain wasn’t exactly [unclear] friendly with Germany and into Portugal and I said, I don’t know how many hundred miles it was and I said, I set off walking, but again I got disturbed and this little man stopped me when I was sitting in this little wood and he said in French, vous RAF, tombez avec parachute, you RAF, fall with the parachute and I said, I’ve never been more pleased about learning French at school than I did then, cause the words came easy. And I said yes and I was picked up by them and they hid me away and it was a case of hiding from the Germans and I knew where I was, Luxembourg and then I got out of there and I set off for Spain and I, over France and Spain and Portugal but I got picked up and I was, joined the RAF from there, almost flying in different aircraft, finishing me air training course, and when I did in 1944, I was on me fortieth op and I got shot down and I couldn’t fly again and I was, I got picked up by the underground and taken care of.
JM: Now, I believe Ron that you were, you were, I believe you were sheltered by the Resistance for quite, I believe you were sheltered by the Resistance for quite a long time.
RD: Yeah, yeah.
JM: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
RD: About?
JM: About the time you spent in hiding in Luxembourg.
RD: Oh yes. When I, when I was hiding from the Germans, I didn’t know where I was, and then I was hiding in the bushes, and then I heard a dog barking, and I thought, oh, the Germans have got a police dog on me tail, and I looked out and it was a farmhouse with crossroads, and there was a farmer and his big dog were standing by a little farmhouse, he went in and there were signposts at the crossroads, the Germans never took signposts down, so I said, ah, that’s where I’ll know where I am, and when I went down, I saw the words, [unclear], Luxembourg, and I was just a few kilometres from Luxembourg and I thought, great, and then the underground picked me up, and I was hiding and training with them and it was really exciting coming down after being shot down at twenty thousand feet in the air and blowing the whistle and shouting, this is Ronnie, this is Ronnie, and I landed and then I saw the Luxembourg, I saw the crossroad signs, saw that I was in Luxembourg, and I was going back into hiding, and then the farmer saw me, so I went into the village, and I walked in the village and about eight to ten children joined me and then the sirens went and the children disappeared and I went into the wood, and I looked at me, I got me maps out cause you would given when you would training, you were given an escape package, with foreign money in, French, Belgian, German, and the little maps to tell you where you were and I said, I decided that I would, that’s what I would do, but I got picked up by this little man and he came, he said, vous RAF, tombez avec parachute and he took me on board and I was glad to know it was Luxembourg.
JM: I believe for some time you were living in a house that was only two doors from the Gestapo.
RD: What?
JM: I believe for, you were living in a house that was only two doors down from the Gestapo headquarters.
RD: Two what?
JM: Two doors, two houses, close by the Gestapo headquarters.
RD: Oh yes, yes, and it was exciting and it was frightening in some words, not exactly frightening, but I went training and I was flying and as I say, I got shot down, then I got picked up by the underground cause I was in these different houses and they, I found out, [unclear] I read me maps and everything where I was and I thought, I’ll set off walking from, to Portugal because you couldn’t, the Swiss border was so heavily protected and so I got picked up by the underground who took me on board and took me in a house and hid me and I was hiding away when I was, this man came and took me and he took me to his house and it was in Luxembourg and it was a nice house that I learned much later it was only four, five doors from the senior German police officer and I was hiding in this house and it, they looked up to me, and then they picked up and put me in the underground and it was, it was living, when I was flying, I did about, I did over forty operations and I got shot down, and I wasn’t hurt but when we had to land at this airport, which is a big airport, the Americans were there and when the Americans came and saw the aircraft, and said, are you part of the crew? I said, yes, he said, what are you? I said, the rear gunner, my God, he said, look at that! He said, I said, all the Perspex of the rear turret was shot away, there’s bullet holes all over, how I’ve never been hit I don’t know, but I said it was, I was picked up by those people and I was learned to, trying to fly.
JM: Ron, can I just take you, can I just take you back to your time in Luxembourg?
RD: Time?
JM: When you were living in Luxembourg.
RD: Yeah.
JM: Does the main
RD: I was living in Luxembourg, I was picked up and this, this family picked me up and I was, I’d seen the sign posts and I looked, I got in the wood and looked at me maps and I saw where I was, I was delighted and then this little man came and asked me if I was RAF and I joined up with him.
JM: Does the name Ferdie Schulz mean anything to you? The name Ferdie Schulz?
RD: Yes, and the man, the man that looked after me, was a man, he, I was picked up and taken into the village. And there’s a lady there and she was talking to me in French and it was, she was talking very fast and difficult to understand and I said, the door opened and I said, this man came in, tall, heavily built, short cropped iron grey hair, I said, this man’s Gestapo, he’s German, but he said to me in German, sprechen sie Deutsch? I said, nein. I said, I speak English. Parlez vouz francais? I said, en peu, just a little I speak, but I am English, and from that moment on he hid me away and he took me to his house in the middle of Luxembourg. His wife was a Spanish lady who was neutral of course and she was scared stiff because she was not anti-German but not pro German. And she was scared stiff because only a few doors away was a very senior German police officer and if she’d been caught, she could have been hurt, she could’ve been. Anyhow, I got out of there
JM: How long, how long were you living with them?
RD: Ey?
JM: How long were you living with them?
RD: I lived with Ferdie Schulz from the March to the 8th of June.
JM: Right.
RD: Because the invasion came on the 6th of June.
JM: Yes.
RD: All the names and dates blend in.
JM: Yes.
RD: And then I, I was in training and
JM: When you left their house, when you left their house
RD: Yes
JM: I believe
RD: When I lived Ferdie Schulz’s house.
JM: You went to the Ardennes
RD: I went to live in Belgium and then in Belgium I went into the Ardennes forest
JM: Yes
RD: And I lived in the Ardennes forest and I joined up with a [unclear] groups of people and they were all European, French, German, Italian and we were all in this camp and I was sitting when the invasion had started and we could hear the invasion, the, the Allies had landed in Europe and were coming forward, and we were in this camp as I say, nearly all European nationalities, and we were debating what to do, should we come out in the open and meet the Allies or wait and I said, I went outside in to have a pee and I said over the top of the bushes, I saw these round helmets, my God, Germans have found us and I said, run, the Germans are here! And it turned out to be the Americans.
JM: So, you were liberated by the Americans.
RD: Yeah, and then the Americans picked us up, looked after us, took us into the, into the Ardennes forest and I was living in the Ardennes forest with a group of other people and then I was moved into Belgium and it
JM: Now, I believe that the Americans actually arrested you in the forest.
RD: Well, what happened was, when I went outside for a pee, I saw the round helmets, I thought, run, it’s the Germans, and then [unclear] with the Americans and the Americans came and they talked to us and they, he said, we have to arrest you because we have to interview to find you who you really are and we are going to put you in this school house with some other people and outside in the yard was full of German soldiers and I was looked after and interviewed and hidden away, well, I say hidden away, got to know everybody, and it was, it was, living in the with Ferdie Schulz, just a few doors from the senior police officer, then things got a bit scary, they had a maid and she found out I was there, and they moved me on, into a village called Troisvierges, three virgins, in Northern Belgium, and I lived with a doctor, Doctor Isha, and his wife and he had a wife there and he was old and he had a daughter called Guedette and he had a maid, she was seventy odd, and we lived there for a while. And then they moved me on from there into a hiding place in the forest in north, in south Belgium and then I got out when the Germans came, well, when the Americans came, I got out and they interviewed me and I eventually got back to England and was transferred, it was funny, when I was picked up I was more or less left to go on my own devices and I said, I was guided up to the north of, to the north of Europe and then taken over into Europe and in Europe I met Ferdie Schulz who looked after me, he looked after me for several weeks, and then, after a few weeks, the Germans, the Allies came forward and he took me along and we met the Allies.
JM: I understand that after the war, you met up with the Schulz family again through their daughter.
RD: That’s right.
JM: Will you tell us about that, please?
RD: That’s right. I went back, I went back to see them, Ferdie Schulz, in Europe and it was, it was exciting and frightening to think that I’d lived so close with them to the senior German police officer and that they risked their lives.
JM: And he was involved with Radio Luxembourg.
RD: That was Luxembourg.
JM: And he was involved
RD: And from Luxembourg I went to the Ardennes forest in Belgium
JM: You did, but Ferdie Schulz was involved with Radio Luxembourg I believe.
RD: Radio?
JM: Radio Luxembourg.
RD: Radio Luxembourg.
JM: He was involved with that?
RD: Oh yes, well, Radio Luxembourg came and interviewed me.
JM: Right.
RD: And it was, they were so interested into the story
JM: Right.
RD: And from there on I went, the Americans came forward and the Americans looked after us and then I went
JM: You went to Paris I believe.
RD: Went to Paris, yes, was nice Paris, nice in Paris, and it was a strange world in Paris but it was such a big city, it was a lonely place but I was taken up to the, to live with Ferdinand Schulz in his house and as I say, he had a Spanish lady who was in neutral
JM: Yeah.
RD: And she was frightened because in case the Germans
JM: How did you get back from Paris to England?
RD: Well, I was living in a camp among a lot of other people, Europeans, German, Italians, French, Belgian and I went outside for a pee, saw these round helmets and I thought, oh, the Germans have come, and I shout, the Germans have come, and this voice said, [unclear] and it was the Americans and I said, the Americans then got us all together and they said, well, you have to be interviewed to see if you are really who you are, to see if you are an ally and so you’ll be arrested by us and I was arrested and I was put on the back of an American lorry and taken up to South Belgium and I was taken out there and put into a school and I was told I would have to be there till I was interviewed and I said anyhow, I went in the school and the Germans interviewed me and then I, I was, they believed who I was
JM: I think you mean the Americans interviewed you.
RD: Well, the Americans I meant, the Americans and they left me on me own to get back to England and I got back to England and got picked up and got helped and it was all exciting, it was coming back to a new world, after being shot down, you know, it was, and how frightening it was, to live so near a senior German police officer and it was, I wasn’t caught.
JM: You successful evaded for so many weeks
RD: And the Americans came and took me, put me in a school, then took me to the North of Belgium and left me and I mean, I made me own way back to England and I, I must tell you, I had no money and I was walking in Paris cause I’d the freedom of the Americans and I saw this notice, it was a notice on the wall that said, something about a British regiment, I said, I went inside, and I said, there was a captain there and he said, yes, who are you? I said, well, I’m English, he said, how do I know you’re English? I said, well, I tell you the story I’ve been shot down and I said, really what I’ve come for is to see if I can get some money. You’ve got nothing here, it’s not a charity, and the door opened and this fellow is a captain and a major walked in and he said, what’s going on? And when he heard the story, he said to the captain, give him the money, I’ll take the responsibility, we’ve got his name, his rank and his number and we’ll get it back from him later. And I said, so they gave me the money, and I said it’s, then the Americans took me into Northern Belgium that’s more or less left me.
JM: But when you got the money in Paris, you were able to get home.
RD: Right, yeah, yeah, they took me to the North of Belgium and left me and then I got on a plane, made me home with it and I was picked up at the, Germans, the Americans picked me up and they took care of me and I was hiding away and I got free.
JM: When you got home, your family must have been thrilled to have you back.
RD: When I got home?
JM: Your family must have been thrilled to have you back.
RD: Well, I remember that I’d no money and I just wanted money to let my family know I was alright and the British officer gave me the money and I got a message sent to England to tell them folks that I was alright. And the Americans dumped me in the North of Belgium and let me to find me own way back and then I went back and I found my way to the railway station and I got a ticket and I phoned up and told them where I was and the family met me, my dad and two sisters met me at the Stafford railway station and they looked after me.
US: [file missing] You want to tell that story?
RD: Yeah.
US: And then you can tell that story and then Julian asked and then, when you got back to the UK, how did you get a message to your dad and where did they meet you, not at Stafford, it was at Durham or Newcastle.
RD: Yeah, yeah, well,
US: Tell.
RD: What happened was that when I got the money, we had a good drink, and then the Americans took us forward to the North of Belgium and left us on our own but I had money to get across
US: You had no money, they left you in Belgium, you made your own way to Paris, and it was the English major in Paris
RD: OH yes
US: Who gave you some money.
RD: Yes, the English and army unit, English army unit gave me the money and I managed, they left me in the North of Belgium and I managed to get over there.
US: No doubt.
JM: Yeah, ok.
RD: [file missing] and I spoke to them, they said, we’ll come and meet you, anyhow they came and they met me and I was with them and it was, it was nice meeting up with the family again and it was exciting story to tell and
JM: And I believe after the war, you were a policer officer.
RD: Ey?
JM: I believe after the war, you were a police officer.
RD: OH yes, yes, I joined the police force and it was the thirty years of the policemen, well, twenty odd years, and then I was in a special unit, and it was, they took me in this special unit and the British army looked after me and then I, from there on I, it was the case of meeting different people and getting home and
JM: Ron, could I, answer up and just take you back a little bit?
RD: Is what?
JM: Could I take you back a little bit because there are one or two questions that I want to ask, just to clarify it for the recording. What squadron were you in?
RD: What?
JM: What squadron were you with, when you were shot down? Was it 4?
RD: 429 Squadron.
JM: 429, and where was this based please?
RD: 6 Group Bomber Command Canadian.
JM: Right.
RD: So, I was with a Canadian group and it was they, they looked after me.
JM: Yes. So, you were in a Canadian squadron, but you had an Australian pilot and you were English.
RD: An Australian pilot, an Irish engineer, a Scottish navigator and the foreigner was me.
JM: [laughs] and the operation on which you were shot down was one of the most important and famous operations of the war.
RD: Yeah, well, it was, I was shot down on the major, the biggest loss of Allied bombers which was in ’44 and there was 97 British bombers shot down.
JM: And where were you attacking?
RD: And that was the heaviest loss of bombers at any time.
JM: Yeah. Where were you attacking Ron? What was the target? What was the target?
RD: Pilot?
JM: The target.
RD: Target, Nuremberg.
JM: So, it was the Nuremberg raid.
RD: Yeah, it was on the way back from Nuremberg, this twin engine aircraft shot us up
JM: And you, you
RD: I bailed out by parachute
JM: Yeah.
RD: And there were twenty thousand feet and I was shouting and whistling
JM: And the other crew members, they bailed out too, did they?
RD: Ey?
JM: The other crew members all bailed out?
RD: Yeah, they, I found out later they were, they bailed out and were arrested
JM: They were all captured
RD: Yeah
JM: So, you were the only evader
RD: And I was the only escapee.
JM: Right.
RD: And but I didn’t know that, but it was all now exciting and to think that they, American, the British gave me some money and I was able to go into Paris and
JM: Ron, Ron, can
RD: I remember I got, [unclear] two or three other people and we got drunk with champagne and the champagne was, it was cheap [coughs] and the more we drunk, the more they charged us until we got angry and said, no, you’re robbing us and then everything came fine and they looked after us and I got back to England and mom and, dad and two sisters met me at the railway station and mom was, couldn’t stop crying cause they got a telegram and I’ve got a copy of the telegram that said, regret to report that your son was, is missing, reported as missing in action and I said they made enquiries for several weeks and months and they couldn’t find and mom came to conclusion I was dead. And then out of the blue this wonderful news for mom came and they were delighted, delighted and the family looked after me, the Americans looked after me and it was living at home, making the best you could, and I had a bit of money as I said, from the British army and I was, everybody drank champagne [laughs].
JM: And your squadron, 429,
RD: Ey?
JM: 429 Squadron
RD: 429 Squadron, 6 Group
JM: Yes
RD: Bomber Command
JM: Yes, and was that the Lancaster Squadron?
RD: Canadian Squadron
JM: Yeah
RD: And they were Halifax bombers
JM: They were Halifax bombers
RD: Yes.
JM: How did you feel about flying the Halifax? Did you like it?
RD: Everybody used to say the Lancaster was the pride of the joy of the Bomber Command, no way, I would put all my faith in this Halifax, it could, it got, I mean, I was actually part and parcel of the truth of the matter, got badly shot up and the aircraft stood all the battering we’d got, from being shot up and I got shot down and purely because one of the [unclear] had been damaged and I couldn’t manoeuvre the aircraft, we had to bail out. And it was bailed out and it was, I thought I was dead. I bailed out and with the flames were shooting across the aircraft, and I thought, if I, when I bail out, if I pull the ripcord, the burning petrol may go into the parachute, and it’ll burn and I’ll die, so I said, I’ll count to ten when I bail out, and I started to count and I got to six and I, I didn’t panic, I just said, bugger it, I’m pulling the ripcord, and I said, I got out and pulled the ripcord, and I said, it was a delight really but I said, it was frightening because I was sure I was dead, because when I opened my eyes, I could see me feet, where me head should be, and I thought, it can’t be, your feet should be at the ground, I’m going to Heaven, and then I realised that the harness of the parachute, me leg was trapped in the harness and I was upside down, I was upside down in me parachute, and I was delighted, blowing me whistle, shouting me name, and then I got out, the Americans picked us up, put me in this school house and the American, I got, money from the British and the Americans took me to Northern Belgium and left me.
JM: Ron, you’ve given us a lovely interview, you’ve given us a lovely interview, you’ve told us so much about [unclear]
RD: Is that alright?
JM: I’m gonna leave it there for tonight because I can see it’s tiring you so I’ll leave it there thanks on behalf of IBCC.
RD: Any time you want to come back.
JM: Thank you
RD: Because there must be a thousand stories about flying and that sort of thing and me family now know the story living in [unclear] Nuremberg and
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ron Dawson
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Julian Maslin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-11-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ADawsonR171107
Conforms To
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:43:44 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Belgium
France
Germany
Great Britain
Luxembourg
Germany--Nuremberg
France--Ardennes
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Dawson flew over 40 operations with 429 Squadron as air gunner. He joined the Air Training Corps at the age of sixteen. He trained on Ansons and Boulton Paul Defiants and remembers flying in the Whitley. He crewed up at Leicester airport. Tells of being attacked by enemy fighters twice. Gives a vivid and detailed account of when he was shot down on the way back from Nuremberg. They all bailed out but while the rest of the crew was arrested, he found his way to the Luxembourg border and was taken up by the Resistance. He was then taken to the house of a man called Ferdie Schulz and he stayed there from May 1944 to the 7th of June 1944. From Luxembourg he went to Belgium, where he hid in the Ardennes forest with other people from different countries, until the invasion started and they were then liberated by the Americans, who after questioning them regarding their identity, let him go to fend off on his own. After the war, Ron became a police officer.
Contributor
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Peter Schulze
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-04-30
1944-04-31
1944-05
1944-06-07
1945
429 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
crewing up
Defiant
evading
Halifax
Resistance
shot down
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/20/337/Memoro 1157.2.mp3
ae35ef8cddf80a4dece4fc4690ab7c47
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RS: Sono venuto a Torino, anzi la mia famiglia si è trasferita da Rivoli a Torino nell’ottobre del 1938 e si abitava in via Issiglio 56. Praticamente la vita dei nostri giovani eccetera era praticamente tra via Issiglio e tutti quei prati che erano verso il parco Ruffini, poi c’erano. Io sono venuto qui per fare una testimonianza che avevo parlato con il signor Modè di un fatto solo, dell’incendio del gasometro di via Mongi, di Borgo San Paolo, il gasometro di Borgo San Paolo. Pochi lo sanno, lo sapranno i più anziani e tutto, era praticamente, io mi ricordo per essere precisi, era in via San Paolo 140, a fianco vi erano alcune cascine, che venivano in questa direzione. Il bombardamento, i bombardamenti di notte che si sono susseguiti dal 18, 19, 20, 22 novembre di notte del 1942. Allora, si andava nei rifugi, che non erano rifugi antiaerei, erano rifugi improvvisati. Ciascuno andava nella propria cantina si facevano mettere quei sacchi di sabbia che [unclear] alle finestre, i vetri naturalmente tutto spento e tutto il resto e si andava lì. Alcuni dicevano, mah andiamo lì per fare la fine dei topi perché ci schiacciano come topi. Quella sera lì del 20 novembre è stato centrato da degli spezzoni incendiari e delle bombe dirompenti. Erano al lavoro una squadra dei pompieri più il personale della società del gas e i volontari dell’UNPA, che ne avete parlato voi. E l’incendio durò dalle 22.50 fino all’ 1.45, qui è confermato dal verbale dei vigili del fuoco che l’hanno compilato. Il gasometro era confinante con la Cascina Maletto e noi eravamo alcuni giovani che allora non si resisteva tutta la notte, tutta la durata dell’incursione aerea eccetera eccetera nelle cantine. E ad un certo momento eravamo dei giovani che abitavamo in via Issiglio al numero 56, gli altri tra il 60 e il 62 e l’ultima nostro carissimo amico abitava in Via Issiglio 72 proprio dentro l’Impresa Boggio di cui suo padre faceva il guardiano. L’Impresa Boggio era in fondo di via Issiglio angolo via Montenegro, dietro la Lancia. Durante l’allarme, noi eravamo in quattro ragazzi, io, Michele Andreis, Rolando Bonfiglioli e mio fratello. Mio fratello Sergio era il più grande di tutti noi e avevamo tra i sedici e i diciannove anni. Noi uscivamo dal rifugio, si stava un po’ lì ma non erano quei rifugi antiaereo come hanno poi fatto dopo e come quello che si parlava di via, di Corso Raconigi, un altro Corso Peschiera, la Lancia li ha poi fatti dopo, rifugi che andavano da 18, 20, 22 metri sotto terra. La Lancia l’aveva fatto dentro lo stabilimento di via Caraglio 56. Quindi noi uscivamo dai rifugi e uscivamo dalle cantine mentre vedevamo tutto un lampeggiare, tutto in questa zona perché è stato un massiccio bombardamento la notte del 20 novembre. E noi mentre siamo usciti c’erano le donne, le nostre mamme, che sgranavano il rosario, dicevano il rosario, perche dicevano mah qui come finiamo, perché tra spostamenti e aerei, tra una cosa e l’altra, tra le case che tremavano e tutto il resto. Allora, noi davano l’allarme e successivamente c’era il cessato allarme. Il cessato allarme quella sera lì non l’hanno dato, il cessato allarme lo dava una sirena che era sopra la Lancia in via coso, tra Via Caraglio e via Issiglio sopra. Chi conosceva la lancia dell’officina 2/3, la ex officina 15, [part missing in the original file] una sirena, proprio la sirena dell’allarme. Allora quando siamo usciti io ricordo ancora, siamo usciti in via Issiglio, abbiamo guardato verso via San Paolo che lì ci occorreva due, tre minuti arrivare, perché era quasi, quasi lì di fronte sembrava la fine del mondo, sembrava chiaro come in questo momento. Vedevamo il gasogeno che prendeva fuoco che era stato centrato in piedi, in pieno, dagli spezzoni incendiari, non sul gasometro ma anche tutto sulla cascina e tutti gli altri posti che erano qui. Diciamo Corso Rosselli allora si chiamava Corso Parisi [part missing in the original file] le fiamme
UI: Era una zona industriale, occorre spiegare.
RS: le fiamme alimentate dal gas
UI: però…
RS: Ma era una cosa da vedersi. Quando vedo certi documentari adesso che si vedono tutto beh ricorda perché ci è stato talmente impresso a noi diciasettenni, sedicenni quello. I vigili del fuoco che a un certo momento non ce la facevano perché tra le diverse cose avevano anche colpito la Venchi Unica e una squadra dei vigili del fuoco dalla Venchi Unica era arrivata, ma qui mancava l’acqua. Mancava l’acqua perché ad un certo momento, cosa facevano, i vigili che di cui ricorderò sempre tutti noi dobbiamo essere debitori di questo, hanno usato la sabbia e hanno preso la terra dalla cascina confinante, c’era una cascina da una parte, una cascina dall’altra, la Cascina Miletto. I militi dell’UNPA sono poi arrivati dopo che con i militari ci hanno impedito di avvicinarsi. Successivamente prendendo, prendeva il fuoco, è tutto qui documentato dal coso dei vigili, successivamente ha preso fuoco la cascina Maletto e l’incendio è venuto talmente grande di cui noi che eravamo a distanza ravvicinata malgrado i militari che facevano scappare noi ci nascondevamo nei fossi di fusciaie, proprio nei fossi, allora avevano tutti prati, c’erano i fossi ci siamo nascosti lì due vigili del fuoco con grande coraggio hanno trovato l’acqua del gasometro e dalla Cascina Maletto che bruciava spegnevano il fuoco, spegnevano il fuoco con le lance di, con le lance di sopra. Questo si verificava all’1.45 di notte. Che è stato la cosa [part missing in the original file] per esempio, l’incendio al gasometro di via San Paolo 140 del 20 Novembre ’42 causato da spezzoni incendiari e bombe dirompenti. Al lavoro una squadra di pompieri, personale della società del gas e volontari dell’UNPA. Durò dalle 22.50 all’1.45. Raggiunto il luogo del sinistro e constatata l’assoluta mancanza d’acqua agli idranti statali e interni, parte del personale, in unione ai tecnici e ai dipendenti della società Italiana gas e a militari e con alcuni militi dell’UNPA dirigevano gli sforzi fuori numerosi fuori del galleggiante, perche poi è venuto su, ci sono i due gasometri, uno giù e l’altro su, dei due galleggianti e ad un certo momento con la terra e sabbia e tutto, l’acqua, sfruttando l’acqua esistente della vasca che aveva il gasometro, un affare del genere chi non era lì presente e che una buona parte dei cittadini erano già sfollati in seguito dei bombardamenti che erano cominciati prima. Il rimanente personale, usando sempre l’acqua del gasometro, si adoperava per circoscrivere e domare un grave incidente, un grave incendio dal tetto della Cascina Maletto che era confinante, onde impedire il riaccendersi del gas. Quindi, dice il comandante dei vigili del fuoco, quindi giudicai bastevole la presenza di quei pochi uomini che mi recai in altri luoghi dove la nostra presenza era più necessaria e sono andati poi su, su alla Venchi Unica. Questo noi l’abbiamo proprio visto da vicino. Eravamo in quattro, cinque, poi le mamme erano poi tutte preoccupate che non ci vedevamo poi alle quattro di notte eravamo ancora li in giro perché poi sono usciti i militari dalla caserma lì di coso, come si chiama la caserma Bramante, come se chiama, la caserma di Corso Bramante, dove c’era il genio ferrovieri, sono venuti anche loro, però una parte è venuta, l’altra parte è dovuta star lì perché erano caduti degli spezzoni incendiari anche lì tra via Monginevro e la cosa, sempre tra il 21, tra il 21 e il 22. Io ho voluto, come detto, ricordare questo fatto dell’incendio del gasometro di coso, di Borgo San Paolo. [part missing in the original file] no, l’anno prima, ho rivisto, in tempo di guerra, l’anno prima hanno poi ricostruito tutta questa parte qui chiamava San Rita dal gasometro di Borgo San Paolo, mentre l’altro gasometro era laggiù [unclear] Corso Regina ci avevano lì il coso. E allora lì è stato ricostruito, poi dopo non so se è stato tenuto lì bisognerebbe qualcosa.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Romualdo Siccardi
Description
An account of the resource
Romualdo Siccardi (b. 1926) remembers the November 1942 bombing of the Borgo San Paolo gas holder in Turin, when he was sixteen. Mentions briefly makeshift shelters in basements deemed tantamount to death traps and gives a detailed account of the night of 20 November when the gas holder was hit by bombs and incendiaries. Describes how the fire was extinguished by members of the Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea, helped by soldiers and workers of the Società Italiana Gas. Mentions how they resorted to sand and earth from nearby farmhouses because water supply had been disrupted by the bombing.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Format
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00:10:49 audio recording
Identifier
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Memoro#1157
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Italy--Turin
Italy--Po River Valley
Italy
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-11
Language
A language of the resource
ita
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Memoro. La banca della memoria
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
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Sound
License
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Royalty-free permission to publish
bombing
civil defence
incendiary device
Unione Nazionale Protezione Antiaerea
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/305/3462/AMillerRB170129.2.mp3
7d469d66bad863f231a4ed20fe809fa0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Miller, Robert
Robert Bruce Miller
Robert B Miller
Robert Miller
R B Miller
R Miller
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Robert Bruce Miller (1924 - 2021, 423155 Royal Australian Air Force) a photograph and his log book. He flew operations as a navigator with 51 Squadron.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Robert Miller and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-30
2017-01-29
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Miller, RB
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
EG: Ok, so that’s sort of put that down to record. Uhm, ok, so I guess we’ll start with what is your full name?
RBM: Robert Bruce Miller.
EG: Robert Bruce Miller. And you, what, uhm, Squadron, rank and crew position were you?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: Squadron, rank and crew position.
RBM: My final ranking was flying officer.
EG: Yup. And what, uhm, what does that mean for people that might not know?
RBM: That, well, it’s just a rank in the Air Force.
EG: Ok. And your crew position?
RBM: I was navigator.
EG: Navigator. And what does a navigator do in a?
RBM: He tells the pilot which way to go [laughs].
EG: Yeah. And what was the date you enlisted?
RBM: I enlisted, 20th of June 1942.
EG: 1942. And your, and where did you enlist?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: What was your hometown and where did you enlist?
RBM: North Strathfield.
EG: North Strathfield? That’s really close, uhm, where, I’m from Concord.
RBM: Oh, are you?
EG: Yeah!
RBM: Whereabouts?
EG: Uhm, Flavelle Street.
RBM: Alright.
EG: Yeah, mum and dad have lived in Flavelle Street for forty years.
RBM: Oh, my wife came from that area.
EG: Ah!
RBM: Area, Corby Avenue.
EG: Oh cool!
RBM: Which is off the extension of Burwood Road.
EG: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I know. That’s cool. And then, uhm, and we’ve, I grew up there, I went to school at St Mary’s Concord, so just [unclear] in North Strathfield. Yeah, ah, cool! And what school did you go to?
RBM: Sydney Tech High.
EG: Sydney Tech High. And what, were you working before you enlisted or?
RBM: Yes [laughs] I was a trainee chemist.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: At Balm Paints. Which used to be at Cabaritta.
EG: How cool, how cool! And then, did you continue after as a chemist after the war or?
RBM: No. I started off at the university studying engineering.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: But decided to give that up in the second year. I couldn’t really settle down.
EG: And so what did you do after engineering?
RBM: Oh, I did all sorts of things, not odd jobs but my, made me earn a living varied and
EG: Yeah.
RBM: The, uhm, lass that I first took out when I was working at Balm Paints before I enlisted. We sort of became unofficially engaged before I went away and so we were married on Australia day 1946.
EG: Oh, wow! And, what was your wife’s name?
RBM: Pardon?
EG: What was your wife’s name?
RBM: Joyce.
EG: Joyce.
RBM: We seemed to get to know one another better through correspondence over three years than we did when we first started going out [laughs].
EG: Yeah. And how did you meet?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: And how did you meet Joyce?
RBM: I, she was the secretary to the chemist.
EG: Ah, ok.
RBM: At the laboratory and one of the fellows I worked with, I said, I need to find a girl to take to a dance. He said, next Saturday night, he said, I bet you two shillings you’re not game to ask Joyce. I said, what, I couldn’t afford to lose two shillings [laughs]
EG: Ah. [laughs]
RBM: That’s how it started.
EG: And how long were you married for?
RBM: Pardon?
EG: How long were you married?
RBM: Oh, until, Joyce, I can’t remember the date. [pauses] I’d have to look it up.
EG: Oh no, It’s ok, oh, that’s.
RBM: We moved, first moved here in 1999, on Armistice Day 1999.
EG: To, just here.
RBM: To Lutanda, we moved to a villa up there, and until Joyce had to go into a nursing home.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And then I moved in here.
EG: Ok. Uhm, yeah, I actually went to, ended up going to school, I know this area quite well because I went to Barker on my last year so I had quite a few friends that lived around here. Yeah, so that’s how I know this area. That’s, and so, did you write to each other often?
RBM: On a fairly regular base, we had the usual letter numbering system that, you know, so we knew if we missed the other or if we got more than one which one to read first.
EG: Oh really, I, yeah, I’ve never heard of that before. I try and write letters to my friends overseas but it’s, you know, with email now you can get a bit lazy kind of so we don’t really send as much as I used to. Uhm, but that’s, and did you keep all the letters?
RBM: No.
EG: No, you didn’t? Did Joyce keep hers?
RBM: No.
EG: Oh wow, that would have been.
RBM: You know, well, my son-in-law’s father was also in the Air Force and he, and the lady that became his wife, both kept the letters all the way through and they were using a diary that was written by their son-in-law.
EG: And did, oh, that’s, yeah, no, that would have been cool to have seen.
RBM: Can’t hear what you’re saying.
EG: That would have been cool to have seen.
RBM: Oh yeah, yeah.
EG: Yeah. Oh, so nice. And, did Joyce continue on as a secretary of, like, you know, is that what she kind of did as her career, you know?
RBM: Yes, she was a secretary yeah. [coughs] That was the days still following on from the Depression, so, she only went as far as intermediate in high school and took on secretarial work.
EG: Yeah, cool. And, so what made you choose to enlist and go to Bomber Command, what was?
RBM: Well, I didn’t have any choice where I went.
EG: Oh, really?
RBM: But I joined the air training corps and with that you, your parents agreed that you go into the Air Force as soon as you turned eighteen because if you wanted to go into aircrew normally you went on a waiting list and you waited a long time before you could get in and so I went into the Air Force on the 20th of June 1942 and I got back to Sydney exactly three years later.
EG: Oh my Gosh! And so were you eighteen?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: How old were you when you enlisted?
RBM: Eighteen.
EG: Eighteen, Oh my Gosh, so young! Wow, I just, blows me away, when you think, that’s so young.
RBM: Well, you know, I guess it was a different time to make decisions.
EG: Mh, and where did you train when you enlisted?
RBM: Ehm, well [clears throat] excuse me.
EG: That’s cool.
RBM: Well, as soon as you enlisted, you went in what was called an initial training school and they were in various places but there was one at Bradfield.
US: Morning boss. I’m sorry to interrupt.
RBM: Alright.
US: Can I just test your emergency alarms?
RBM: You can do what you like, so long as you don’t ruin it.
US: I won’t ruin it. Sorry.
EG: That’s ok. So, Bradfield was the training.
RBM: Bradfield, yes.
EG: Bradfield. Let’s wait until.
RBM: And they decided, as I already had training and testing there what they would recommend that you do next as far as you training is concerned,
EG: Yeah.
RBM: You could be a wireless operator or a gunner or what they used to call an observer in those days. Or a pilot and there was no such thing as a bomb aimer initially but and initially I was graded to become a pilot and one day the round us all up and said, well, there’s a group going to Canada to train as navigators and we’re short of some people to fill the gap, any, any of you possible pilots have agreed to become navigators, you’re guaranteed to be all to go to Canada to train [unclear] in Australia so me mate and I said let’s go to Canada [laughs]
EG: Wow!
RBM: Where I would be if I hadn’t done that I don’t know.
EG: And what training like in Canada?
US: Sorry, are you doing an interview?
EG: Yeah.
US: So sorry.
EG: That’s ok.
US: You know, I’m painting around your neck.
RBM: Yeah, [unclear]
US: Can you just press that for me. Sorry to interrupt.
EG: Oh, no, no, that’s fine.
RBM: [unclear]
US: You lots of people accidentally pressing up against something and they go off. We’re checking everyone’s in the whole village in their alarm system at the moment.
RBM: disappeared.
US: So sorry.
EG: No, no, that’s fine.
US: [unclear] sorry as long as it works. Ok, that’s fine. Continue and I’ll cancel this off
EG: [unclear]
RBM: That’s to make sure I’m not dead.
EG: [laughs] and yeah, no, what was Canada like?
RBM: Well, have you ever been down to the snow?
EG: I have not, no.
RBM: Well, if you get to Canada through a winter in Winnipeg,
EG: Yeah, oh Gosh!
RBM: Which is right in the middle of Canada, you’ll understand what snow is like. Because that’s what happened, we left here in, oh, we actually we went to Brisbane and then we left from Brisbane in October and sailed to San Francisco and then took the train up to Vancouver and then across,
EG: Wow!
RBM: To our first location in Canada and then from there moved us on to where we were gonna train. So, I was sent to the navigation school in Winnipeg and along with about half a dozen others. So, we spent a winter there [laughs].
EG: I would have been [unclear] Was that the first time you’d ever been overseas before?
RBM: Pardon?
EG: Was that the first time you’d been overseas before?
RBM: Oh yeah.
EG: Yeah. So would have been
RBM: Nobody travelled overseas in those days.
EG: No, so, yeah, it would’ve definitely been, the cold would have been very different. [laughs]
RBM: Well, you, you had to wear earmuffs,
EG: Yeah?
RBM: You had a cap, that actually folded down, yeah, it was folded down but that didn’t really protect your ears so you put earmuffs over them and they were good except when you walked into a shop which were always heated inside, all of a sudden your ears started to burn, you know.
EG: Uhm, and so, how long were you in Canada for training?
RBM: Until, oh, [pauses] I can’t remember the exact date.
EG: Oh, that’s ok, just, was it a few months or?
RBM: Oh yeah, we were there good six months.
EG: Six months?
RBM: Yeah, it was springtime when we left.
EG: And you mentioned your friend. What was your friend’s name, who went to training?
RBM: Dick Eastway.
EG: Dick Eastway.
RBM: But he actually became a bomb aimer.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: That was the time when they deported potential observers up into the two because the bomber areas were getting larger.
EG: And, I think it’s coming up like uhm, oh yeah, so, I find this fascinating like cause I’ve heard a few stories about how people crewed up and did you like, you know, how did you, once you had finished your training, where did you go and how did you find your crew?
RBM: Oh, that’s a long way ahead.
EG: Yeah?
RBM: Oh yeah, because after we trained in Canada,
EG: Yeah?
RBM: We sailed across to England,
EG: Yeah?
RBM: And we were lucky we got on the Queen Elisabeth to sail and the danger of getting caught by submarines was much less because I just opened the tabs and went straight out, you know? And zigzagged all the way across the Atlantic and we landed in Scotland and they took us down to Brighton, on the south coast of England, which was so the central depot that they collected them all together before we got posted to various other places. And while we were there, the place got very badly bombed by
EG: So this was when you were in Brighton?
RBM: Bombed by fighter bombers.
EG: In Brighton was bombed?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: It was this Brighton that was bombed?
RBM: In Brighton, yeah. And while we were there, they had us accommodated in usually old hotels or boarding houses or something like that. And some of them got hit, lot of people got killed and we were lucky, it was a Sunday and we decided, we’d go, catch a bus and go out of Bournemouth to a country pub, which we did and it wasn’t until we came back that we discovered that there had been an air raid.
EG: Ah, oh wow.
RBM: And [laughs] some of them, when the air raid sounded, they were in a pub so they went down into the cellar and didn’t get dug out for several days.
EG: Oh no.
RBM: They [unclear] a lot of beer [laughs].
EG: I was gonna say, [unclear] [laughs]. And so I guess, uhm, what was the kind of feeling of everyone if that’s, kind of, it was so intense, what was happening and?
RBM: Something that happened, you know. You didn’t worry about it.
EG: And,
RBM: And because of all the damage that happened there, they sent a group of us off to a small aerodrome that was what was known as an EFTS, Elementary Flying Training School for pilots and they sent a group of pilots and a group of navigators to this little aerodrome and lined us all up and they said, well, you can decide who you wanna fly with and you can take one of those Tiger Moths and you can cruise around and the pilot can practice flying and you can practice map-reading and finding out where you are and all the rest of it. Which was in beautiful early summer weather in England, was lovely and we were able to, we would fly over, you know, Wales and places like that, you know. And that’s the first time I came across that, eh, place in Wales that’s got the name about that long that nobody can pronounce.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And we saw the railway station when we were flying around.
EG: Wow! And, did you make, like, any good friends with any of the English and Canadian?
RBM: I never ever met them again. Actually it was interesting, ehm, the first pilot I flew with at that time, he continued and became pilot in Bomber Command and he finished up as the governor of New South Wales.
EG: Oh wow!
RBM: Yeah [laughs] anyway it’s a long story, but, and while we were there, they moved the location of where they were storing people from Bournemouth over to Brighton, which is sort of directly south of London.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And that was much better because it was more open and bigger seafront and all sorts of things. So, we were stuck there for quite a time.
EG: And it was by the place that ended up, that wasn’t the one that got bombed when you were out of the country pub?
RBM: That was, sorry?
EG: Where was the location, sorry, that got bombed when you were at the country pub?
RBM: That was Bournemouth.
EG: OH, ok, I got it down. And then you went, and [pauses], so, when you enlisted and kind of was going through all the training for Bomber Command, did you, were you aware of the high casualty rates, was that something that was?
RBM: Oh, the, yeah, you were aware that I can’t think what was published in the paper now, but, yeah, you know, you knew what happened there. But we had to go for further training after we were at Bournemouth and they sent us up to Scotland and. We did our training there and, I can’t figure the name of that place, it was near where Robbie Burns was born.
EG: Robbie Burns.
RBM: Anyway, and from there, they sent us down to, oh, names, names, names, [pauses]. My memory is not all that good.
EG: Is it?
RBM: West Freugh, a place in Scotland. I can’t [unclear] the name but there,
EG: Yeah.
RBM: It was number 10 Operational Training Unit.
EG: And, so,
RBM: And that was where you formed the crew you’re gonna fly with.
EG: Oh yeah.
RBM: They let that all the pilots and navigators and gunners and everybody else and so on congregated them and used, the pilot first of all go and round talking to people and he gradually formed the group and that became the group you flew with and the pilot I flew with I happened to meet our bomb aimer. One day walking around at the station and they approached me and I was, I’d liked to become the navigator and they seemed reasonable people so I said, yeah.
EG: And were English or Canadian?
RBM: The pilot was an Australian.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And the bomb aimer was a Rhodesian.
EG: Rhodesian.
RBM: But then the rest of the crew were all English.
EG: And, how did you, once you kind of had your crew together, what was your first operation?
RBM: Well, that was still part of the training, we were, it was called an Operational Training Unit and [shuffles through pages] while we were there, we were flying in an aircraft called a Whitley, which you might never have heard of.
EG: No. What, uhm, what is a Whitley?
RBM: A Whitley is a twin-engine plane that was very old and it used to fly almost with the nose down because of the shape of the thing and it, [pauses] it was rather a strange aircraft to fly, and actually you had to be extremely careful that you didn’t smoke on board the aircraft because, the pilot was there, and I sat behind him and just up there was a feeding system for petrol to the two engines so if you happened to light a cigarette
EG: Oh my god.
RBM: the plane was just as likely go up.
EG: Was that common that, did people smoke a lot in, when you are flying?
RBM: People di smoke sometimes, yeah.
EG: Oh my goodness! It’s hard to.
RBM: Not a good habit when you are in the air.
EG: No. [laughs] And, so,
RBM: And then, after we finished training there, we went to what was called a conversion unit which meant you converted onto the type of aircraft that you would fly from a Squadron.
EG: And, what, uhm, what type did you?
RBM: And that, that was a place West of York and we got onto a Halifax aircraft.
EG: Halifax.
RBM: That was called a conversion unit because you were converting to the type of the plane to the type which you would fly on operations. And they, they were usually aircraft that had already been on operations, were getting a bit old. You were lucky if you managed to keep the thing in the air until you finished your training.
EG: Oh Gosh!
RBM: And anyway there quite a number of accidents, planes that didn’t perform correctly.
EG: And did people get killed during training?
RBM: A lot of people were killed in training.
EG: Uhm, and so I guess, cause I can’t imagine how you would feel, but you know ahead of your first operation in, you know, with lots of people being killed in training and knowing that it had such a high casualty rate like, how did you feel? You just.
RBM: That’s something you accepted was gonna happen but we, we got moved, actually we were at that unit for quite a long time over Christmas because it was an extremely bad winter and they couldn’t do a lot of training and we didn’t get to the Squadron until April in the next year. And the Halifaxes we flew in that kind of training unit were, of old design and do you know the difference between the inline engine and a radial engine?
EG: No.
RBM: Well, you know, some aircraft engines have a thing right there in the front, round, that’s a radial engine.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And inline engines are sort of, the cylinders on the Spitfire or Lancaster.
EG: Ok.
RBM: Well assuming there is one behind the other, but they changed the design of the Halifax put the radial engines in and they also changed the design of the fin. I’ll show you. Come over here.
EG: Yeah. Oh wow!
RBM: I can’t move it, it’s stuck down.
EG: I know.
RBM: But that, that’s a radial engine.
EG: That’s so cool.
RBM: And that’s the fin which had rotors that moved around that but the difference between that and the other ones, the earlier ones was, they were sort of diamond shaped and if you got banked too steep, you lost the entire of the aircraft. So they, they were much, much better.
EG: Wow, that’s very cool.
RBM: And I’ve had that since 1946, or something.
EG: Wow!
RBM: That was made by, a wireless operator, gave it to me just before I left England.
EG: He made that?
RBM: Yeah.
EG: Wow! That’s so cool. And what was his name?
RBM: Harry Johnson.
EG: Harry Johnson.
RBM: Actually he did. He was a chap I got to know very well because all the other crew had family to go to all close friends and the pilot had an association with the lass he finally married over there.
EG: Yeah? [laughs]
RBM: And the, the wireless operator sort of took me under his wing and we used to go home to where he lived, in Stoke-on-Trent,
EG: Yeah?
RBM: And stayed with a relative of his wife’s, people who, it became a second home to me in England.
EG: Oh.
RBM: I can just turn up there any time. Quite interesting.
EG: These, that’s a lovely photo, these are great photos.
RBM: Oh, that was taken after they gave us this new medal.
EG: And whose wedding is this?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: Who’s this at the bride?
RBM: That’s my mother.
EG: She is very beautiful.
RBM: And that’s my wife’s mother and that’s her parents there. And those are our two children.
EG: Wow!
RBM: There’s another one of my mother. And that’s my grandmother and me.
EG: Oh wow!
RBM: When I was about three. [laughs]
EG: That’s, they are great photos. I love her wedding outfit, it’s so beautiful.
RBM: Oh good, I have a whole stack in there.
EG: I’ll have to take a few photos. I’ll definitely take a photo of all this stuff.
RBM: Pardon?
EG: Once I’ve finished recording I’ll take a photo on my phone of.
RBM: Ok.
EG: All this stuff, cause mum will love it. Make sure it’s still recording. Yeah, is still going, and so, next one is, were you ever a prisoner of war?
RBM: No.
EG: No? It’s good [laughs] I know. Uhm, and
RBM: We survived.
EG: I, yeah it’s, I can’t imagine. And are you able to describe, uhm, the WAAFs, the ground crew and other aircrew you encountered in the Bomber Command?
RBM: The ground crew were excellent.
EG: Yeah?
RBM: And you and a lot of the aircraft, actually when we first started, we’d get put on an aircraft in various locations because I guess they were getting used to us, to see how good we were and but eventually we were, allocated our own aircraft and the place where it was parked so we had ground crew that were there all the time were there and we got to know them very very well, they were sort of part of the family. You didn’t do anything to upset them and you didn’t do anything that they told you not to do. Just to make sure that everything was alright.
EG: And, how many people in a ground crew?
RBM: Oh Gosh, I’ll probably show you a photo.
EG: Yeah, I’m definitely keen to go through the photos.
RBM: No, not in that, no.
EG: And what were the WAAFs kind of, like what were their role, how did they kind of fit into everything?
RBM: they did
EG: The WAAFs, the women.
RBM: Oh! They did everything, you know, they worked on aircraft,
EG: Wow!
RBM: They drove trucks, they made parachutes, they served food in the mess, they organised transport systems. You know, name it and they did it, and oh, and they organised, they operating with the stations and control towers and aerodromes, were very handy people [laughs].
EG: And was it like did everyone, what was the kind of atmosphere like, did everyone get along or?
RBM: Oh, everybody pulled along together, yeah.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: You know, that was your home and that was the Squadron you belonged to and you wanted that Squadron to have a good name so people didn’t muck up, occasionally there were problems but nothing really.
EG: And, sorry I didn’t ask you this earlier, did you have any brothers or sisters or have any brothers or sisters?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: Do you have brothers or sisters?
RBM: Ehm?
EG: Brothers or sisters?
RBM: Not anymore.
EG: Not anymore?
RBM: I had two sisters and a brother.
EG: And did your brother enlist as well?
RBM: No, he was older than me and he was just finishing a university degree when I went into the Air Force and he actually graduated when I was in Canada. And he worked in civil aviation after he came out of the university and got involved in building the Mosquito aircraft.
EG: Wow!
RBM: He, they were balsa ones that were super things except one crashed in Sydney
EG: Oh!
RBM: crashed somewhere near Petersham.
EG: Oh, I’ve never heard of that! Sorry.
RBM: Not widely publicised.
EG: Oh wow! Uhm, and what were the living conditions like on the airfields and how was the?
RBM: Pardon?
EG: How were the living conditions and I guess we kind of touched on this before, but how was the kind of social, like, how did you get along socially and did you?
RBM: Hey were, yeah, we had a Sergeants Mess, and we could turn up there anytime we wanted to and you could, you’d buy a beer or coffee or all sorts of things you wanted there and that’s where the Mess where you ate your meals and the service were pretty good for that and
EG: Was that, this is in England?
RBM: Yeah.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And if you were going on an operation they served you a meal beforehand so you might have a meal in the middle of the night sometimes [laughs] and you’d go off on operation and then have another meal when you got back. And sometimes we’d be a daylight trip and sometimes it would be a night trip. Most of them were night trips for us.
EG: So how long would you be in the plane for, like an average in an operation?
RBM: Oh, four hours.
EG: Was it, it wasn’t very comfortable?
RBM: Oh well, there were no armchairs [laughs] but I, I’ll show you, the pilot was up there,
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And down below that, you see, there’s windows on the side.
EG: Oh yeah.
RBM: Well, the back ones were where the wireless operator was and the front ones where I was. And down here was where the bomb aimer was. And that’s where I sat and I had all my things and the screens that I looked at to navigate with there were. you know we went through a lot of training on navigation, of navigating by the stars and all sorts of things, which you couldn’t use in Bomber Command because you know you need to be able to fly straight and steady for quite a long time to do it properly and it took too long to work out all the things, you know so, if you can look underneath and see the things sticking out underneath.
EG: Yeah, yeah.
RBM: That’s a radar, electronic thing that scanned around and after that was developed they had maps that had the shapes of all the cities in Europe so you could read where you were in relation to that town.
EG: Wow!
RBM: And then you’d take another one relation, another town and where there’s a line across that’s where you were. There was a major change to navigation, made things a lot easier. But there was two, the ones at the, uhm, names. There was, they usually followed what they called the master bomber, when you got to the target, the master bomber would have arranged for what were called the Pathfinders to drop flares over the target and he would tell you to bomb that covered flare or that covered flare or whatever. And then you, when you flew over the aircraft, dropped your bombs, you had to leave the bomb doors open for a full minute so that the camera could take a picture of where your bombs dropped and then you closed that up and manoeuvred the aircraft to go straight and level which was a bit entertaining when they were throwing things up at you.
EG: Ok, and so we’ve already asked what type of aircraft, the Halifax, what was, uh, and you kind of touched on this I guess already but what was the best feature and the worst feature of the plane in your opinion?
RBM: Well, the best feature of the plane that was a more modern version of an earlier model and compared to the Lancaster it was a much more accessible plane inside. You could walk up and down the plane without any trouble at all. One of the problems with the Lancaster is that they had a beam across where the wings were and you had to climb over that, which was not all that easy.
EG: And, do you have any particular, on your operations, does any particular incident or like uhm, when something happened that sticks out in your mind?
RBM: [laughs] Well, a lot of things happened but we were going off one night and lined up and started roughly on the runway and just as we were about to get airborne the plane and went like that and we did the trip and came back again and the pilot called up the aerodrome and said he thinks something happened to the starboard wheel and they said, yeah, we have the tyre here, we actually blew a tyre just before we took off. Had it happened a minute earlier, something like that [whistles]
EG: Oh my god!
RBM: And we were taking off over the bomb dump at the aerodrome at that time it would have been a hell of a mess. So we had to go to one of these emergency dromes that they had. There were a number of emergency [unclear] that were set up so that almost any aircraft could land in various spots there and they sent us off to that and the pilot put it down, and he put it down on one wheel and then finally let the other down and there was no damage to the tyre.
EG: Oh my goodness!
RBM: Amazing!! Or damage to the wheel or something
EG: Should be in a movie or something.
RBM; But there were all sorts of things that happened there. Like when we were flying round in the Whitleys on training, they sent us off one night to do cross country and that meant flying up to Scotland and all the way around the place and when we got there it was nine tenth cloud, so you had no chance to take star photographs or get any idea of where you were and the one thing you could have, the aircraft had what was called a loop aerial and then the wireless operator could line that up with certain radio stations and you could get a position by lining those up and finally we got back to where I figured the aerodrome was and the pilot called them up and couldn’t get an answer. So we decided we’d try and get down a bit lower in case and hoped the cloud had disappeared somewhere and just and he sent the bomb aimer up into the nose of the aircraft and this aircraft had the front, you can imagine two windows, one like that and one like that and out of the, in front of the aircraft and as we were doing this, all of a sudden the wireless operator jelled at the pilot to go up and we hit the top of that tree, which was an old pine tree it turned out and as soon as that happened the pilot sent out what was known as a Mayday call and an SOS and finally an aerodrome answered us and we and they lit their runway up and we managed to land there. And so it happened that the pilot was so confused about what was happening. he landed downwind instead of upwind and so, we got out of it alright but the next morning we went out to look at the aircraft
EG: Oh no.
RBM: And those aircraft had an air intake just underneath the propeller and there were pieces of oak tree in there
EG: Oh no!
RBM: I still got a piece somewhere.
EG: Oh!
RBM: We, that was another lucky thing.
EG: Yeah, you were lucky!
RBM: But the bomb aimer got Plexiglas in his eyes and he had to go into hospital for a while but he didn’t get any permanent damage luckily.
EG: Oh wow! That’s and do you have any thoughts or views about the targets you flew to? So, did you find, did you think that any were too dangerous or, you know?
RBM: Oh, you knew what was dangerous because there’s an area called the Ruhr Valley and that’s where a lot major industry was in Germany, large armour steel plants and things like that, a whole lot of it. That was an extremely fortified area and you knew if you go in there, it was going to be a bit touchy you know.
EG: And did you have operations there?
RBM: Oh yeah, several times, yeah.
EG: How many operations did you do?
RBM: Forty two, forty three.
EG: Oh my goodness!
RBM: And the longest one we did was up to Wilhelmshaven, up in northern Germany. I can’t remember how long that was.
EG: And, so you, did you stay stationed in England the whole time or?
RBM: Yeah, yeah, we were there and after we finished our tour of operations they called it, which varied, it started off if you did thirty operations in Bomber Command you went on leave and then the targets got a bit shortened particularly after the invasion and so we had shorter trips but they extended the number so that’s why we went up to forty two or something like that.
EG: And did you know when your last mission, did you know it was your last operation?
RBM: Yeah, because of the number.
EG: Ah, and so, how was the feeling on the last operation?
RBM: I was happy to just put it down again [laughs]. But it was actually only a fairly short trip.
EG: And did you, uhm, as soon as you finished that did you go, head back to Australia?
RBM: Ehm well, we went on leave for a while and then we got posted to a training station and you became somebody that helped train the ones that were coming on, so I went down to one near Nottingham and stayed there for long.
EG: What was it like training people?
RBM: Oh, ok, it was entirely different training to what we did and they tended to have long lectures on things which was a bit boring but there were special gear to help people. You learned to use this H2S thing, so I spent most of the time training people on the use of that and you know, that, I didn’t do a great deal of flying there and then I got moved from there over to another smaller place that name which I can’t remember, but I presume the smallest county in England, and then I got sent back to Bournemouth and waited there till they sent me home. And actually we sailed out of Liverpool and they sent us up on a train at night but we got out and next morning we were in trucks going down to the wharf and all the people were out in the streets of Liverpool banging things and yelling out and making a cheerful noise. Peace had been declared.
EG: Oh wow!
RBM: So, really I sailed from Britain the day peace had been declared.
EG: That would been amazing.
RBM: Yeah. And you weren’t allowed to drink alcohol on the boats that carried the personnel but that morning they said you can have a small bottle of beer; it was very early in the morning and a friend and I were just enjoying standing at the railway. He was a very keen beer drinker and he was enjoying a morning beer and I took one sip and I said, no, I don’t like that, and I dropped that over the side and he never forgave me [laughs].
EG: [laughs] And, yeah, what was it, what was it like, when you arrived home, I guess? It was, how would you?
RBM: Oh, actually we, we sailed into Sydney harbour at night and in those days they had that boom across to stop anything unwelcome drifting up the harbour so we parked just inside the heads and got up next morning to a lovely sunny day and there was Sydney harbour.
EG: it’s the most beautiful place in the world.
RBM: And they, they parked us up at Circular Quay, put us on buses and took us back to Bradfield and they had advised the families that you were coming in. So, actually my father got that message after he got to work on whatever day it was and because we didn’t have a phone at home and so he rang my fiancée Joyce and she was in the AAMWS, Medical Women’s Army Service but she had been put on a few days off and living at home, so he managed to contact her there, so he and then pick her up and she came over to Bradfield as I was saying, so Mum and Dad and Joyce, all they did greet me when they lined us up.
EG: That was a pretty amazing moment.
RBM: Yes.
EG: Oh Wow! And I guess, this is kind of a tough question but what do you recall about, kind of the aircrew losses and what effects did those losses have on you and other people in the Squadron?
RBM: You, they didn’t publicise it on the Squadron, you did had, might happen to find out, so and so went missing, you know, and unless you happened to be on operation, in the operation room sometimes and then you’d find a list of all the people that had been on the ops and some had been ticked off and some might have a line drawn through them, doesn’t always mean they were killed but they were certainly missing and I guess we were lucky.
EG: Oh my goodness! And so, how would you like the Bomber Command in kind of, like the kind of immense sacrifices that people in the Bomber Command made, how would you like that remembered and how would you like future generations to think about?
RBM: Well, aircraft and systems have changed a hundred percent since those times but there is no doubt, that Bomber Command had a major influence on the result of the war in Europe, because we were able to just flatten Germany industry and flatten their aircraft industry and by the time we were half way up to Germany, their number of fighter planes and things were minimal but they started to develop these rocket things that sent a rocket up over to London and landed in the middle of that sort of thing. If you wandered down the streets of London, you weren’t quite sure you whether you’re gonna hear something, [mimics the noise of a V1 rocket] and stop and you hoped it wouldn’t drop on you.
EG: Oh, my goodness!
RBM: Interesting.
EG: It’s, I lived in London for a year and it was just weird to think that it was ever that kind of thing happening.
RBM: But in that, to walk around London during that time, the number of streets that just were panelled off because of all the destruction around the place and then go and walk through the same place today, it’s entirely different.
EG: Yeah. I am, I’ve never done country side in England but I am going, one of my best friends from high school is getting married in Rugby this year, so, I’m going to head to Rugby in September, so.
RBM: In September?
EG: Yeah.
RBM: OH, won’t be too cold. No. [laughs]
EG: No. Thankfully. Yeah, I know I’m very looking forward to it. It’s just, it is kinda crazy like to think that there was a time that you experienced like, like how you experienced it. Yeah, it just, blows your mind [laughs]
RBM: Actually, our pilot wrote a diary or kept a diary while we were on the Squadron, of the operations that we were on and I didn’t find about this for quite a long time after the war and I persuaded him to let me have it and I said, I will write it up. So I put together a book, Fawkie’s Diary, that was his name, that was his name, Fawkner, and that was the emblem of the Squadron. It was a goose and I made that out of a Cyprus pine and cedar. I carved that from one from a swan and used that as the emblem. He got a DFC and I got quite a Croix de Guerre at that time and in that’s the whole story of all the operations we were on. And he, he’d written up a resume of his opinion of the people he’d got together, so he let me have that and I put it in there, his thoughts on all the people he was gonna fly with, you know.
EG: Did he have, any thoughts of you there?
RBM: Sorry?
EG: Was there some, like, you know, his thoughts on you?
RBM: Oh yeah.
EG: [laughs] Is it possible, could I borrow these to photocopy for?
RBM: No.
EG: No?
RBM: No.
EG: Ok. And again.
RBM: It’s still in existence down in Canberra now.
EG: Ok. I’ll get Mum to track it down.
RBM: A copy of this was given to Canberra.
EG: Ok, I’ll track that down. Fawkie’s war diary. Cause that looks amazing.
RBM: That’s all the trips we did and what I did was, there was a book published that listed all the Bomber Command trips and I took that information out about that particular raid and that, that was, might be down in Fawkie’s Diary and that was the results of the trip. I did that on all the trips and then there’s other bits and pieces there, some of the stuff in England about what was going on and all the rest of it. And that’s where they talked about the Halifaxes, these flying bomb sites and then I followed all up with a bit of history stuff, took a lot of putting together.
EG: It looks amazing.
RBM: A bit of work.
EG: Yeah.
RBM: And actually that’s the second edition. The first one I had, I can’t think when I actually published it but it was quite a long time before like, that carving there to get that photograph I had to go down to a camera specialist in Eastwood and organize him to take a photocopy, to take a colour picture of that and to print it in colour. And then, my brother lived at Eastwood and he had a computer and a printer, a very old sort of thing, so, everything I had typed up, we ran through his printer. And I just made seven copies of that and that went to each of the crew and the family stirred me into rewriting it and updating it and then I had copies made for all the families. And [unclear] one down there.
EG: Yeah, I know. We will definitely track that one down. And do you mind if I take a few, uhm, pictures of your logbook as well, just I’ll take a few. I’ll just stop this recording now.
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AMillerRB170129
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Interview with Robert Miller
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:08:58 audio recording
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Pending review
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Emily Guterres
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2017-01-29
Description
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Flying Officer Robert Miller was born in Australia and was training to be a chemist before he volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force. He flew 42 operations as a navigator with Bomber Command.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
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Australia
Canada
Germany
Great Britain
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
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Peter Schulze
Roslyn Giles
Temporal Coverage
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1942-06-20
10 OTU
aircrew
crewing up
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Abingdon
RAF West Freugh
training
Whitley
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/718/10113/ABoocockR170406.1.mp3
5648acd3c120cc0d941adb8b4752e30e
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Title
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Boocock, Robert
R Boocock
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Bob Boocock. He trained as a wireless operator and was posted to the Far East with 242 Squadron. He became a prisoner of war at Changi and in Japan.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Boocock, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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MC: This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre on Thursday, the 6th of April 2017. The interviewer, interviewee is Robert Boocock, the interviewer is Mike Connock. The interview is being carried out at the home of Mrs Flora Winter at Brant Broughton. Mrs Winter is also in attendance at the interview. Ok, Bob, thanks for agreeing for this interview. What I’d like to do is just explain a bit about where you were born, when and where you were born. When were you born?
RB: 7th of January 1919, isn’t it?
MC: Alright, and whereabouts was that? Where were you born?
RB: [unclear], oh, and where was I born? Newcastle upon Tyne
MC: And you went to school there?
RB: No, my father got a job down in the city of York
MC: And what did your father do?
RB: He operated machines, we had an aeroplane factory in the centre of York, would you believe? Going back a long time and my father worked there and he was a tool maker and that was a small place, a small factory
MC: But that’s where you went to school
RB: But it’s gone now
MC: Yeah, yeah, yeah
RB: It no longer exists.
MC: You went to school in York then, did you?
RB: Yes, I did.
MC: Yeah. You enjoyed your school days? Did you enjoy your school days?
RB: Well, it’s a long time ago. [laughs]
MC: And what, when did you leave school? At what age were you when you left school?
RB: Where?
MC: What age did you leave school?
RB: I left school at, my, it was called the Knavesmire higher grade school when I left that when I was fifteen and I did another year at the York school of commerce which was in, do you know York at all?
MC: No.
RB: Which was in Clifford Street. And I went there for a year and when I was fifteen, I got a job.
MC: And what was that? Doing what?
RB: Well, I’m trying to remember, the first job I had was a part-time one and I was still at school and did you know that I delivered lady’s hats?
FW: Yes, I did, I did [laughs]. [unclear]
RB: And I had a bicycle with a pannier rack and the bag of things were in the front and I got to know York very well, I mean, I’ve forgotten a lot of it now and it’s grown.
MC: So when, at what stage, what, how did you come to join the Air Force? What step, what age?
RB: I was conscripted.
MC: You were conscripted, yes.
RB: And I joined in February, war started in September
MC: ’39, yeah.
RB: And I joined the Air Force, I put my name down for the Air Force and I was called up by the RAF in the following February, that’ll be 1940
MC: So, you’d been in your early twenties then, were you?
RB: Been what?
MC: How old would you be? Nineteen?
RB: Be about sixteen, I suppose.
MC: No
FW: Getting a bit lost here, I think. 1940 you would’ve been twenty-one.
MC: Thank you Flora. Yeah, that’s fine. Yes, so and where did you first when you joined the Air Force, what was your first posting or training, basic training?
RB: Do you have the sheet of paper with all details, Flora?
US: I don’t know, I’m not sure what you’re, I knew you got it somewhere.
RB: I think I have.
MC: You were on the training for a long time?
RB: I went down to London and I went to the Central Telegraph Office which was near St Paul’s and learned the Morse code [laughs]
MC: So, did you get a choice of being, becoming a wireless operator? Did you get a choice of becoming a wireless operator, did they give, or just tell you that you were going to be a wireless operator?
RB: Just a wireless operator, I volunteered for flying duties but there was a great shortage of training facilities in the early days of the war and I was posted to 242 Squadron and Douglas Bader was a previous commandant, I mean, I never met him, he was already a prisoner of war in France, I think, when I joined up
MC: So when you, that was after you’d finished your wireless operator training, was it? You finished your wireless operator training and then you went to 242 Squadron.
RB: I, I can’t
MC: Yeah, where was 242 Squadron? Can you remember whereabouts it was?
RB: I possibly got it upstairs, I’ll just go upstairs and
MC: I’m interested to know where your first posting was when you went to 242 Squadron.
FW: Weren’t you not in London then?
MC: You were in London when you did your training, you say.
RB: Yes, I went to the Central Telegraph Office to learn the Morse code and we had to march down Holborn, I think it was. I was just there for about three months, that will be 19
FW: ’41 I think
RB: 19
FW: ‘40, 1940
RB ’42, maybe
MC: And then, then of course you were posted to 242 Squadron you say.
RB: Yes
US: Did you [unclear] that you were in the Blitz
MC: Alright, yeah, and was that in this country? 242 Squadron? Were they here? In the UK?
RB: I can’t remember where I joined it.
FW: Were you still with 242 Squadron when you went abroad?
RB: Yes, I think so.
FW: Right.
RB: The famous commander of 242 Squadron was
FW: Douglas Bader
RB: Famous flier, and he was a prisoner of war already in France, who would that be?
FW: Douglas Bader
MC: Douglas Bader, yeah, you said Douglas Bader
RB: Douglas Bader
MC: Yeah, you said that
RB: I never knew him of course
MC: No, no
RB: He was already a prisoner of war when I was called up
MC: Yeah, yeah. So, what aircraft did you fly in with 242 Squadron?
RB: Hurricanes
MC: Oh, you flew a Hurricane?
RB: Yes, I mean, I wasn’t flying it,
MC: Alright
RB: I wasn’t a pilot
MC: Oh, you, sorry, you were working on the radio, wireless equipment
RB: Yes, don’t quite know what I was doing, it’s a long time ago
FW: Waiting for a flying boat
MC: So, did you ever fly aircrew? Did you ever fly aircrew?
RB: No, I didn’t
MC: No, you say you were wireless operator
RB: I, as a wireless operator, which was in the bombers and I was sent down to the training school of the post office to learn more scole and I still do it [laughs]
MC: Brilliant, yeah [laughs]. So, when did you get posted overseas then?
FW: First trip in 1941, I think, late 1941, because you were in Java in 1942, weren’t you?
MC: What job were you doing in Java, Bob?
RB: In Java?
MC: Yes
RB: Mainly running away.
MC: [laughs] so how did you get there, did you go by boat? Did you fly?
RB: Yes
MC: You went by boat, did you?
RB: We went by boat and we arrived at Batavia as it was then called, now called Jakarta
MC: Alright, yeah
RB: In the island of Java and I was in Batavia first of all and then [unclear] was a long time
MC: So, how long was the boat trip? How long did it take you to get out there?
RB: Well, we were bound, when we left, we left Gourock in Scotland
MC: Alright
RB: And we were due to go to the Near East but virtually on the day when I was called up, when I was called up?
FW: When you [unclear] the ship, I think. Go on.
RB: My brain is.
MC: Yes, I, many of you on the boat? Quite a large boat, was it?
RB: Oh, it was the Empress of Australia and we were in hammocks
MC: Oh yeah [laughs]
RB: Strung up, down below decks, with this hammock and we endeavoured to get a piece of wood to go across, to open it out because, it was, we were all in tucks of laughter when we were told about this you see, because the deck was about this much above and
MC: Did you have trouble getting into the hammock?
RB: Pardon?
MC: You had trouble getting into the hammock?
RB: Yeah, we were all stretched out in hammocks
MC: Yeah, yeah
RB: And when the shipped rolled one way we rolled the other way, and like that
MC: So you
RB: We should’ve gone to the Near East
MC: Yeah, you said and
RB: But on the day we sailed from Gourock in Scotland, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and therefore our destination was changed. I mean, we were never told where we were going until you got there [laughs]
MC: So, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour while you were on the boat, when you were out on the boat
RB: Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbour on the day that I sailed, yes
MC: So we know
RB: When we sailed from Gourock
MC: So we know what day you sailed now, cause that was 7th of December 1941, that was the day the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour
RB: Well, that was the day I sailed
MC: Yes, 7th of December ’41, yeah, and so, having arrived in Jakarta, in Java, Jakarta, where did you go from there?
RB: Well, I was taken to prison
MC: So, how soon were you taken prisoner after arriving?
RB: Oh, fairly quickly
MC: Oh, really?
FW: About three weeks, wasn’t it?
MC: Is that all? That was [laughs], goodness me!
FW: Because Singapore had fallen
MC: Yes, I know, appreciate that, yes
FW: Singapore fell on his way there and that’s why he went to Jakarta, they were meant to be going to the Near East and then gradually the thing was extended
MC: Yes, so you went
FW: Singapore they couldn’t go to
MC: I understand now that you were originally going, as you say, the Near East but when Singapore fell,
RB: Well, we were bound to Singapore
MC: Yes
RB: But
MC: Because the Japanese took Singapore
RB: Well they, on the, yes, I’ve forgotten the dates but they landed up in Thailand, they didn’t land directly in Batavia, Batavia being Java,
MC: But you were only there for a matter of weeks before you were taken prisoner
RB: Short, for a short time, yes
MC: So you didn’t get the chance
RB: Then we went by boat, called in at Cape Town
FW: This is on the way out
RB: Calling at Cape Town and from there taken by the Japanese I suppose
US: From Cape Town
MC: You went from Cape Town to Java.
RB: Java, yes.
MC: Yes, you finished in Java
RB: Yes
FW: They were meant to be, I’m forgetting the Near East, they were, no, they were meant to be going to the Far East at Singapore, but they couldn’t go to Singapore cause I understand Singapore had fallen
MC: Yes, yes
US: And three weeks after that the Japanese arrived in Java where he was already
MC: So, having been taken prisoner, how many of you were there that were taken prisoner at that time, you know?
RB: Well, in my squadron, 242 Squadron, which was Douglas Bader’s own squadron,
MC: Yes, yes, yes
RB: He was already a prisoner of war in France
MC: Yes, yeah
RB: And
MC: So the whole, getting comoodle, the whole, [unclear] was taken
RB: Yes, yes
MC: Prisoner of war
RB: We were all taken prisoner
FW: Was it something like two hundred and fifty-seven of you in the squadron?
RB: Well, two hundred and fifty I think, well that was a round number
MC: Round about that, yeah
RB: Two fifty, so of that two fifty, my squadron, 242 Squadron, only, I think, fifty-one of us came back
MC: Really? So, what happened when you were taken prisoner, did they, did you stay there? Did they keep you prisoner there or did they move you on?
RB: Oh, we were taken prisoner in Java.
MC: Yes
RB: And we were in Java I thought about eighteen months
MC: Really?
RB: Lovely country [laughs]
MC: Just a shame about the accommodation [laughs]. So what was, how can I put it? What was life like, you know, once you’ve been taken prisoner, how were you, what was, how were you treated?
RB: Pretty harshly, the main problem was shortage of food
MC: They weren’t keen on feeding you then.
RB: Well, it was a rice diet, we never saw bread for three and a half years
MC: So, in Java for eighteen months but you were prisoner of war for three and a half years.
RB: Three and a half years, yes
MC: So, from Java
RB: It takes a lot of remembering
MC: Yeah. No, it’s ok, it’s not a problem, you know, you just take your time. So, you said you were in Java for eighteen months,
RB: Yes
MC: Yes, so you
RB: Then we went to Changi in Singapore
MC: So you were in Changi, were you?
RB: We were in Changi, yes. And Wilf Wooller was there, I don’t know if you ever heard of Wilf [unclear], he was an international rugby player from South Wales
MC: So, in Changi where were you, were you, you were you on working parties? Were you given tasks the joe do?
RB: Yes, we, used to do varying work in Java for the Japanese, under the direction of the Japanese, but they were a bit sappy, I don’t they’d been out of Japan for very long and we had to salute all the Japanese whether they were, privates or generals, not always only generals
MC: Any punishment if you didn’t?
RB: Pardon?
MC: And what happened if you didn’t salute them?
RB: You got your face slapped and it wasn’t a gentle one.
MC: No.
RB: Almost knocked your head off.
MC: So how many were in the camp you were in Changi then?
RB: [unclear]
MC: At Changi, was it a big camp?
RB: Oh yes, Changi was big, yes, it was, and I wasn’t there very long
MC: Oh, you moved on from Changi, did you?
RB: Well, into Japan.
MC: Oh, yeah.
RB: Called in it at, oh Crickey! [laughs]
FW: I can’t [unclear] with this
RB: It’s very difficult to remember, so
MC: It’s alright, so you then finished, you went to Japan then, you were taken to
RB: [unclear]
MC: Really. And whereabouts in Japan were you, can you remember that?
RB: We were in the South Island of Japan called Kyushu and I was there for the rest of the war. It was a coal mining camp we went to
MC: So that where you finished up as a coal miner, coal mining for the Japanese, did you?
RB: Yeah
FW: Fukuoka province, wasn’t it?
RB: Pardon?
FW: Fukuoka province, is that right?
RB: I can’t hear you.
FW: Fukuoka
MC: The name of the place, province.
RB: Kyushu is the island,
FW: Yes
RB: It’s the South island of Japan
FW: Yes, but then Fukuoka, is that the province?
RB: [unclear]
FW: Yeah, well, we’ll just have to skip that
MC: So, you were actually doing mining for the Japanese then? You were mining for the Japanese?
RB: Yes, well, I was in the mining camp.
MC: Yeah
RB: And whether I was fortunate or unfortunate, I was one of only six people who didn’t go down the mine, I mean, I went down once or twice, we were a squad of just six and our job was to push little trucks around on a very narrow gauge railway and we had to take mainly electric motors and pumps to the mine and we used to bring them back to the workshops, we were based on the workshops [laughs].
MC: So, I mean, what was punishment like if you didn’t do what you were told?
RB: Punishments?
MC: Yes
RB: You got your face slapped
MC: Yeah, you said face slapped, you didn’t, how can I put this? You come across any
RB: Almost knocked your head off
MC: More, no more extreme punishments? You didn’t see any more extreme punishments? Any worse, any worse than that? Anything worse than that, Bob?
RB: Not that I saw
MC: So, who was
RB: Except that, we came back from the mine one day and we were in shifts, you see, and we came back on our shift at about half past five and when we came back, there was a crowd of men from the previous shift, they were all on their knees, and I don’t know what they’d done wrong, but they didn’t look very happy
MC: Really, yeah. So the, you mentioned, was it, captain Williams?
RB: Yeah, Peter Williams,
MC: Yeah, was he in Japan with you?
RB: Yes, he was and Peter Williams was a captain in the army
MC: Yes
RB: And he was a first-class officer and I actually visited him once, when I came back home. Captain Peter Williams
MC: Cause you mentioned about how the Japanese pronounced his name.
RB: Wriliam [laughs], wriliam, and they used to come, we were in, I think I’d been a [unclear] with some huts there for the prisoners and Captain Williams represented us, there were also a fairly large number of Dutch people so vetje vellen kan vetje Holland sprate? [laughs]
MC: If I knew what you said, I’d say yes [laughs]
RB: [unclear] Ein bisschen, nie veil. Yeah, he was a good man, I visited
MC: He looked after you
RB: I visited him after the war,
MC: Yes
RB: Some years after the war and his wife gave me a meal at lunch I think, I don’t remember much
MC: Yeah. So you, you talked about the number of people who were on the squadron, and only fifty or so came back
RB: Yeah, there were two fifty I think on the squadron when we left Gourock in Scotland and in the early months of my coming back home I learned that in my squadron only fifty-one man had come back, so it was very heavy
MC: Losses
RB: Losses, yes
MC: Do you know the reasons for those losses?
RB: The what?
MC: The reasons for those losses, why they failed to come back.
RB: Oh well, it was bad treatment, overwork and above all, lack of food. Food was very scarce, and it consisted, never saw bread for three and a half years, just rice and the rice varied sometimes, sometimes it was yellow, sometimes a dark colour, but it was never white like rice in England, never
FW: [unclear]
RB: We had three meals a day of rice of various calling
MC: Lots of other things in the rice, as well as rice
RB: Yeah, well yeah, well the rats in the ship that we went there, you could hear them scratching up in the rafters somewhere which, well, you got used to it,
MC: If you say so, Rob [laughs].
RB: Yeah
MC: So, how do you, so you’re in Japan, how did you get, were you in Japan when the war ended?
RB: Yes
MC: When they dropped the bomb?
RB: Yes, and I was evacuated from Nagasaki which had the second atom bomb dropped, the first one was on Hiroshima
MC: Yeah
RB: And the second one was Nagasaki and we were taken by train from our camp in Kyushu to Nagasaki by train and the swain drew all the blinds, we couldn’t see Japan at all, we got glimpses, that was all and
MC: So, Nagasaki, were you there when they dropped the bomb?
RB: Yes
MC: You were?
RB: Yes, I mean, I wasn’t, no, must get it clear, I was in Japan, I wasn’t at Nagasaki, I was about forty miles away I think but we were evacuated from Nagasaki by the Americans on an American troop ship
MC: So, when you evacuated, I assume you got well fed on the ship
RB: Never so full [unclear]
MC: I can imagine, especially the Americans
RB: Oh, the Americans, it was good food but there was so much of it, you got as much as you wanted. I suppose we got special treatment
MC: Yeah, of course, yes.
RB: Yeah, Oh, Crickey! You’re stirring my memory.
MC: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, there, obviously you got evacuated by the Americans on their troopship, where did that take you to?
RB: To San Francisco. Went across the Pacific and we went to San Francisco and from there the Americans took us by train up to, is it Toronto, in Canada?
FW: Yeah [unclear] Vancouver?
MC: Yeah, you might have gone up to Vancouver first and then across
US: And then across Canada by train to Toronto, didn’t you?
RB: I went by train from San Francisco
FW: Yes
RB: Up North
FW: Yes
RB: In an American train
FW: Yes
RB: And when we got to the Canadian border, we were transferred to a Canadian train and taken from there across the Rockies, very spectacular, to Montreal and from Montreal down to New York again, back into the United States and I came home, can’t remember
FW: Was one of the [unclear]
RB: Yes, the Empress of Australia
FW: No, no, that’s what you went out on
MC: I think that’s probably, that’s what you went out on I think
FW: I think you came back on either the Queen Mary or the Queen Elisabeth, you always thought it was the Queen Mary
RB: It wouldn’t be the Queen Elisabeth
FW: Well, the Queen Mary you used to talk about
MC: Probably the Queen Mary cause they used to use it as a troopship
RB: I thought it was the Empress of Australia
FW: That’s what you went out on
MC: It’s not, no, so you came back from New York and you came back to the UK from New York. Having got back to the UK, how, I mean, what was life like back in the UK?
RB: Life?
MC: Yeah, how did you manage to settle basically?
RB: Oh yes, well, both my father and mother were alive and
MC: And pleased to see you, no doubt [laughs]
RB: Well, it was incredible, my mother had, was one of five sisters, they had big families and had five sisters and, oh Crickey!
MC: She was pleased to see you, how did she know that you were a prisoner of war?
RB: Oh yes
MC: She did, so, were you able to write home then to her?
RB: Well, I think we had cards and there were fixed sentences
MC: Yes
RB: And you picked a sentence that you wanted to have go back to your parents, I think I’ve still got that
FW: [unclear] somewhere, yes, I’ve been looking after very well here, that sort of thing
RB: Yes
MC: But so, she was aware that you were a prisoner of war.
RB: Oh yes
FW: I don’t think at first
RB: Eh?
FW: I don’t think at first she was.
MC: No, I mean, when you were first taken prisoner obviously, she wouldn’t know
FW: No
MC: Initially what happened to you
RB: Oh, been quite sometime afterwards
MC: So, having got back to the UK, you then obviously, you went back into civilian, you were demobbed once you got back?
RB: Yeah, I mean, before the war I was working for ICI, if that means anything to you
MC: Yeah, ICI, yes, I know ICI, yeah. And what were you doing for ICI?
RB: Well, I went as an office boy
MC: Yes
RB: And I was eighteen at the time, actually I’d worked somewhere else, I can’t remember
MC: That was after you were delivering hats, after you were delivering ladies’ hats
FW: That was just part-time [laughs]
MC: Yeah, I realised that, so, you went back to ICI
RB: Yes
MC: And what did you do when you went back to ICI?
RB: Well, I was a clerk
MC: Yes
RB: In the order section, in the order section of the Northern Region of ICI
MC: Yeah
RB: They divided the country into regions and I, we were in the northern region
MC: And that’s, how long were you with the ICI? How long were you with ICI?
FW: Well, you became a representative, didn’t you? When you got back to England, you became a representative for ICI in the North East.
RB: Can’t hear you from
MC: You were a representative for ICI, were you?
RB: Yes
MC: Yes. And what were you representing, were you, was it chemicals, was it, chemicals? Was it? Cause I know ICI did chemicals. What else did they do?
RB: I was in the Northern Region sales office and we dealt with the customers of ICI and took enquiries
MC: Yes, yes
FW: It was building materials and paints, wasn’t it?
MC: Yeah. Building materials and paints. Building materials and paints and things like that for ICI products.
RB: Yes. Cement was an important product because you can’t build anything without cement and there was a great shortage of it immediately after the war and ICI produced cement from the and it was a sulphuric acid plant and it was called Pioneer cement and we used to deal it by the ton and one of my jobs was allocating cement to our customers in our region so wherever I went, I was very popular in that because cement, you can’t do anything without it when you’re building houses and
FW: People don’t realise now what shortages there were of basic things at that time
MC: No, quite right, yeah. So, what did you after ICI? Where did you go after ICI? Cause you mentioned you had your own business.
RB: Yes
MC: At what stage did you set that business up?
RB: Well, I had a friend, Jack Matthews, did you meet Jack Matthews?
FW: Yes, I did, yes.
RB: Yeah. He only had one leg, he’d lost a leg in the war and he was engineer and we formed a small engineering business, well, just the two of us and I think we gradually increased our employees, at one time we were employing about eighty people [unclear]
MC: [unclear] business
RB: Quite a business, yes, and turnover was close to a million but we never topped a million, that scenario
MC: Some time ago which wasn’t bad
RB: Yes, because cement was like gold and when I became a representative of the company, I was very popular [laughs]
MC: Yeah
RB: Cause I was able to, you know, influence the amount allocated to various customers
FW: Then when you left and started your own business
MC: Yeah [unclear]. Yeah, so your own business was manufacturing, you said, [unclear] plant?
RB: Yes, we started to manufacture gas cutting nozzles, little [unclear] like that
MC: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah
RB: Made out of copper and copper is a difficult material in which you machine, very difficult and we made cutting nozzles for cutting torches
MC: Yes
RB: And then eventually we made the cutting torches. I’ve still got one at home [laughs]. Yes, we made the best in the land
MC: So, then you say you got rid of your business, eventually?
RB: Yes
MC: Was that when you retired or
FW: He didn’t retire
MC: He didn’t retire [laughs]. So you never retired, did you, Bob?
RB: Not really, but the business was sold, now I can’t remember, I’ve got the details [unclear]
MC: Yeah, yeah
RB: I don’t look at them anymore
FW: It was in the nineties or late nineties, I think.
RB: Yes, because the nozzle is only about that big, but made out of copper and we had to drill very fine holes
MC: Yes
RB: And the outer ring provided the temperature at which, if you then applied pure oxygen, which was done through a central hole, that would pierce steel and the ones that we made would cut up to, well, if you use the right cutting nozzle, up to twelve inches
FW: Was a very precision
RB: Interesting
MC: Yes, indeed, yeah, that’s a very skilled job doing that as well
RB: Yeah
MC: Yeah, so, I mean, if I was to sum up, if we look back now, I mean, what’s your feelings about your period in the war, because obviously most of the war you spent as a prisoner of war
RB: Yeah, well, three and a half years out of six
MC: Yeah, yeah, so, what’s your thoughts about how you were treated, what you did, you know, the war itself?
RB: Well, it was a great experience, really
MC: I mean, when you heard that the bomb had been dropped
RB: Well, on the day, the first atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima
MC: Yeah you said
RB: And the next one was on Nagasaki and we were about forty miles
MC: And you didn’t see anything, you couldn’t see anything
RB: No, but I was evacuated by the Americans from Nagasaki and we were taken
FW: To Manila
RB: Can’t remember
FW: Manila?
MC: Was it Manila?
RB: We were in Manila, yes
MC: Yeah. So you saw a few places then
RB: Yes, but most of the war we were in prison camp
MC: Yeah, of course, yeah
FW: Cause on the day the dropped
RB: I recon if I’d not been taken a prisoner of war, I probably wouldn’t have been here today, because I had volunteered for aircrew, I was a wireless operator,
MC: Yeah
RB: So, I’d be going, flying in very slow aircraft but I didn’t get as far as that
MC: No
RB: Gosh!
MC: So, you was, about the day the bomb was dropped
US: Yes, do tell Mike about the day the bomb was dropped in Nagasaki, what happened to you all. On that day, on the day the bomb was dropped at Nagasaki, tell him what happened to all of you, you were pushed in a tunnel, weren’t you?
RB: Yes
FW: Yes, and explain
RB: Yes, well, we were in a coal mining area
FW: Yes
RB: And we were in coal mining camp
FW: Yes
RB: But I wasn’t hewing coal, I was one of only six men when the bomb dropped
MC: When the bomb dropped, what we are trying to [unclear], when the bomb was dropped, you were on a train.
RB: I was what?
MC: You were on a train.
FW: No,
MC: Alright, they moved, you went into a tunnel? They took you into a tunnel?
RB: No, we
FW: When there was a raid, what happened? When there was an air raid, what happened to the prisoners? What did the Japanese do? Where did they put you?
RB: Oh yes, oh God!
MC: Don’t worry about it, Bob, that’s great, you know. Appreciate what you, I mean, it’s a long time ago
RB: Well, it is a long time ago
MC: And I appreciate what you’ve told us and I thank you very much for agreeing to talk to us, I think we’ve covered most of your life and I think we’ve covered your experiences, I mean, the main thing was your experiences as a prisoner of war and you know, we tried to cover that and how you were treated and, you know, what sort of food you had and all that, so we’ve covered all that and I thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Thank you very much and thank you Flora.
FW: [unclear]
MC: So this book we’ve got here, Bob, you say you took all around the world
RB: Yes
MC: And you used to read it to the prisoners? This
RB: Yes, they’d come and ask me to read it from it, cause there weren’t a lot of books in the prisoner of war camp in Japan
MC: No, I’m amazed that you had to take it, they allowed you to keep it. Or did you hide it?
RB: Put it in a kit, we had kit bags, not [unclear] cases, kit bags, and it was just a matter of putting it in with all the rest of it and they would probably look at it, couldn’t understand it but nothing wrong with it and put it back
MC: Alright. And so you used to read it to the other prisoners
RB: Yeah, because not many of the other prisoners had books and I had this one which was bought for me by one of my mother’s sisters and I thought at the time fancy giving me SE 2 [unclear]
MC: Poetry book
RB: But really, it was, it was a great
MC: It was a godsend
RB: It was a great book to have
MC: And I’m sure the rest of the prisoners
RB: [unclear]
MC: I’m sure the rest of the prisoners enjoyed it
RB: Pardon?
MC: The rest of the prisoners enjoyed it.
RB: Oh yes, well, they used to come and ask me to read from it.
MC: Yeah
RB: Cause not all of them had taken a book.
MC: I mean, you are going back again, we are covering old ground a bit but going back to what we were saying about Nagasaki and when the bomb dropped, you were saying about how the prisoners were taken in
FW: [unclear]
MC: Yeah, that’s right, Flora, you were saying about prisoners were taken into a tunnel when there was an air raid.
RB: Yes, that was during the war, not after the war
MC: Yes
RB: And we were taken into this tunnel. I mean, they were short of labour, and our labour was very valuable to them, I think and of course, if we were in a tunnel when the Americans invaded, they said, they told us that we would be killed in this huge hole dug outside and that’s where we were going to end up [laughs]
MC: So there were Japanese there with machine guns
RB: Yeah. Yes, with machine, if you can imagine, a round hole, about the size of that window, and we were pushed into there and in front of that there was a wall built. Now, the wall was about four feet, I suppose, from the entrance of the tunnel and on the outside, because there was a wall there, there were two exits or entrances and each of those exits, they put a machine gun, you know, with two or three men manning it I suppose, pointing it at the exit of the tunnel so if we endeavoured to come out, knowing that the Americans were flying over, they could do something about it
MC: And they already had a hole dug for you [laughs].
RB: The big hole was for us [laughs]. So they told us. But of course, the atom bomb stopped all their plans, because there was nothing they dared to do when the Americans arrived but obey orders. And the orders were that if they interfered with us, they would be in trouble. So we had to put on our huts POW in large letters on the roofs of our quarters, POW and the Americans dropped, well, principally, food, that’s what we wanted
MC: Yes
RB: But also clothes, I was walking around in American suntans as they called them
MC: Yeah [unclear], so as far as you were concerned, the dropping of the atomic bomb saved a lot of lives
RB: Yeah, yes
MC: It was
RB: Oh yes, indeed
MC: And shortened the war
RB: Yes and that was my private possession
MC: That poetry book is quite amazing, the fact that you carried it round and to be able to read it to the other prisoners of war, you know, which, I mean, must have been a great help to them as well
RB: Well yes, and a lot of I think were almost illiterate
MC: Yes,
RB: You know, the standard of schooling pre-war was quite minimum compared to what they get today
MC: Yes
RB: And that was an anti book for me and I’ve kept it all that time and it’s very precious to me
MC: I’m sure it is
RB: [unclear] I did, simply by reading it, learn some of the things, forgotten verse,
MC: You said, you remember
RB: When I am dead, my dearest, sing no sad songs for me, plant thou no roses on my chest, nor shady [unclear], shay cypress tree, be the green grass above me, with showers and dewdrops wet, and if thou wilt, remember, and if thou wilt, forget, [laughs], that was printed when I got back home somewhere but there it is, the same one, when I’m dead my dear,
MC: Oh, right
FW: [unclear] Elizabeth Barrett Browning, wasn’t it? [unclear]
RB: See, that and that
MC: Alright, yes
FW: very sad
MC: So, I mean, you, from what you said, I mean, you quoted Robbie Burns
RB: Yes
MC: You know, you obviously remember a lot of the poems
RB: Oh yes
MC: By heart
RB: Yes, Robbie Burns, oh to a mouse, wee, sleeket, cowran, tim’rous beastie, oh the panic’s in thy breastie, I wad be laith to rin an’ chase thee with murd’ring pattle, still mousie, thou are no thy-lane in proving, foresight may be vain, the best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men, gang aft agley An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain, for promised joy
For promis'd joy!
MC: I love it, yeah, it’s great. You, earlier on, you spoke in Dutch cause you said you were a prisoner of war with the Dutch?
RB: Yes, Ja, I kann ja bitchen Hon sprate. Nie veil, [unclear]
MC: So you learned quite, you learned, was that, you learned to speak Dutch when you were with the [unclear] prisoners of war?
RB: Yeah
FW: Was that in Java?
MC: Was that in Java?
RB: Yes, Java was Dutch before the war
MC: Of course, yeah
RB: Yeah. And of course, they weren’t so many of them
MC: No, no
FW: And when he speaks Dutch, [unclear] set up because you [unclear] speak in English [unclear] speak Dutch, apparently it’s very good Dutch that he speaks, I think it was some professor of the English school who helped to teach him. One thing you haven’t thought about is how they got from one place to another, it was those hell ships
MC: Yeah, Bob, I mean you, we were just talking about how you moved from one place to another on the ships they called them hell ships? Moving on the ships when you moved from place to place.
RB: Yeah
MC: They called them hell ships? You know, what they were like, the boats they were like when you were moved around.
RB: When we came home, you mean?
MC: No, no
FW: No, when you moved from Java to Singapore and from Singapore to Japan
MC: Japan
FW: That sort, what were the ships like?
RB: We were down in the hold.
MC: Yeah, not very good.
RB: Not very good. And there were rats running on the rafters above us [laughs]
FW: From what he says, they were just like sardines
MC: Yes, and you were packed in tight, were you? You were packed in tight.
RB: Oh yes. Well, the accommodation that I remember, particularly we were in hammocks and I think this must have been in a British ship and we were strung up
MC: Ah, that would’ve been going out or coming back
FW: But this was when you are on the
RB: No, when we came back, we came back by America
MC: Yeah, you said that, yeah. I’m thinking about when you were on the Japanese ships, were you able to lay down or you stood up all the time?
RB: No, we could lie down, but you were touching each other at each side, very crowded. And very hot.
FW: I should think very smelly as well.
RB: Yeah. Yeah, wasn’t very pleasant.
MC: No.
RB: Oh well
FW: [unclear] really, isn’t it?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Robert Boocock
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Mike Connock
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABoocockR170406
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
Format
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00:54:26 audio recording
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Great Britain
Indonesia
Singapore
Japan
Indonesia--Java
Japan--Nagasaki-shi
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1941
1942
Description
An account of the resource
Robert Boocock spent three and a half years in Japanese prisoner of war camps. As a young boy, he had a part time job in delivering ladies’ hats. He was conscripted into the Air Force and initially trained to become a wireless operator. After completing his training, he was posted to 242 Squadron on Hurricanes. He then was sent on a ship from Scotland to Java on the 7th of December 1941. Three weeks after getting to Java, he was taken prisoner by the Japanese and sent to a POW camp. From Java he was then sent to Changi and from there to a coal mine in Japan, where he stayed until the end of the war. He was then taken by train from there to near Nagasaki, on the day the bomb was dropped, and evacuated on an American troopship. He gives a detailed account of his experience. Recalls harsh punishment inflicted by the guards and food shortage. Remembers reading a book to the other prisoners in the camp. After the war, he worked for a chemical company before starting his own business.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
242 Squadron
aircrew
bombing of Nagasaki (9 August 1945)
prisoner of war
wireless operator