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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/663/8373/ACarringtonJ170207.2.mp3
501fa00cefda0a59bebe9de4fd707def
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Title
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Carrington, Jane
Jane Waterhouse
J Carrington
Description
An account of the resource
Five items. An oral history interview with Jane Carrington nee Waterhouse (b. 1924 2043217 Women's Auxiliary Air Force) and four photographs. She served as a cook and as a drummer in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Jane Carrington and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
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2017-02-07
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Carrington, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank, and today is the seventh of February two thousand and seventeen, and I'm in Henfield, Hayfield in Derbyshire, and talking to Jane Carrington about her experiences in the RAF during the war. So Jane, what are the first recollections you have of family life?
JC: We just lived, it wasn't a very particularly happy home for a start, but I don't want that broadcast all over the place.
CB: No. What did your father do?
JC: Well, he was a cotton spinner, which was a very special job in the cotton mills, because you had to work your way up to it, and there's only one spinner, you know, to a cotton mill.
CB: Oh.
JC: And of course the mill closed, that was Clough Mill.
NH: How old were you?
JC: How old, when he was working? I don't know.
NH: School?
CB: So, how many children were there in the family? You, and-?
JC: Three brothers and myself.
CB: Okay, and where were you in the, er, range?
JC: I'm the oldest.
CB: You are. Right. And are your brothers still around?
JC: Three of them are, yes.
CB: All three?
JC: One isn't.
CB: No. Right. So, you went to the local school?
JC: I did.
CB: And how long for?
JC: Until I was fourteen.
CB: Then what did you do?
JC: I was told to go out and find a job. And I landed up at the print works at Strines, and then they told me they didn't want me because (laughs) I didn't like doing the work and had no interest in it. And that was the end of that. I just went from pillar to post. I worked as a cleaning, I've done cleaning, where else did I work Nina?
CB: So, lots of different jobs?
JC: Lots of different, but nothing. Nothing.
NH: Did you work with Gladys then?
JC: (Unclear), with Gladys.
CB: So when the war started you were fifteen.
JC: Nineteen twenty four, I was born.
CB: Thirty nine the war started.
JC: I think I was sixteen.
CB: So you were sixteen. Okay.
JC: Sixteen.
CB: And what happened then?
JC: Do you mean where was I working then?
CB: Mm-hmm.
JC: Well, there was a lady, very old lady, Mrs Pearce, do you remember, Parkhall Crescent, I lived in there, I was supposed to be her companion, looking after her house and cooking for her.
CB: Oh right.
JC: And then of course the war was (slight pause) and I went of to join the WAAF. And she came to meet me, she picked me up at Cardington Camp, took to to Wythall to be demobbed, that lady. I couldn't stand her any more (laughs), I'd had a packet of it.
CB: What made you decide to join up?
JC: (Pause) Just unrest, I suppose, looking to, unsettled. In retrospect. You don't know, do you? When you're young you just, you haven't got the education, you haven't got this, you just-
CB: Okay. And when-
JC: When I came out of the WAAF, I'd worked in the catering office for a while, I got a job in accounts department at Ferodo, where I should have been all the time.
CB: Originally.
JC: And then I got transferred to the North London office at Kings Cross.
CB: Right. So when you were sixteen, seventeen, what made you join the RAF rather than join the Army or the Navy?
JC: Because it sounded more exciting.
CB: Mm-hmm. What else.
JC: I can't think of anything else.
NH: The colour.
JC: The colour, oh, the blue, yes, because as I already told you, everybody always said blue suited me.
CB: Mm-hmm. You like the outfit, did you?
JC: I hadn't mixed in very wonderful company as you know, it was just for me to like. Nothing wrong with people. They were nice people for the most part.
CB: So where did you join up?
JC: I went to enlist at Dover Street in Manchester, 'til they called me to (unclear) roster. Is me voice going?
CB: It's good, keep going.
JC: And there, oh, I went on the train from London Road, as I told you. Never having left the village. And the first to happen was they gave us a sack and a pile of straw, and that was our bed for a week, until they could find beds for us, we slept on the floor.
CB: So where was this?
JC: At Innsworth Lane.
CB: At Innsworth, right. Okay.
JC: Nineteen forty two.
CB: Mm-hmm. And as I say, you were eighteen then.
JC: I was. And then I went to the selection. We've only got vacancies for cooks and ACHGDs
CB: ACH?
JC: General Duties.
CB: Right.
JC: Well, what does that entail? Well anything, cleaning the toilets, sweeping the things, doing this that and the other. And I thought, well, I like making fairy cakes, I'll be a cook. There was a rude awakening for Jane! It was damned hard work.
CB: Was it?
JC: Mm. Six of us cooking for three or four thousand men.
CB: And what about the menu?
JC: I've got that for you. (rustle of paper).
CB: Ok, we'll look at that in a minute. But in general terms, what was the menu?
JC: Well, it's in the book, and I don't remember a lot until I read the book.
CB: Well, what I'm saying is, it's not fairy cakes, so what what were you feeding them?
JC: Oh no, well porridge and bacon, brown stew was a favourite, you might know about brown stew. When I read the books they come back to me.
CB: Yeah, ok. But in general terms, it was good nourishing-
JC: There was nothing wrong with it, nothing whatsoever.
CB: And how did the cooking system work? Because there were a lot of people to feed.
JC: Well, we worked on shifts. That's what you want to know, on shifts.
CB: Right.
JC: I could be walking at the front at Skegness with sand blasting in my face at three o' clock in the morning, for doing breakfast shift. And that shift, erm, clean the kitchen. That was awful, doing those floors, with caustic soda. That's – what are you laughing at? With deck brushes, little hard brushes. Then you squeegee'd it, and then you flip-flopped it. That was a load of flags or something to dry it off. The other shift, and I can't remember the time, I think (pause) we did the evening meal and the prep, see, I'm getting mixed up again.
CB: Keep going.
JC: We cooked the, you know, the dinner. That's it, we cleaned the floor, and then we cooked the lunch. No we didn't, we cooked the lunch first and cleaned the floor afterwards. That was the end of that shift.
CB: Right.
JC: Then the next shift would come on and we'd do preparation for the next day, and whatever. I can't remember much more about that. And that would go on until, oh, six, seven o' clock. Then we had to put the passion cocoa out, don't let that go on your thing, will you. That was big bucket fulls of cocoa, and the airmen who didn't want to go out, came in the billy with their mugs and would take the cocoa. At Skegness we had to go and sit on the beach with cocoa for the lifeboatmen, because they were going out to pick the airmen out of the water. That happened very often. There were great big Thermos flasks. Now I might get this all out of context. Chris, but these are the things that happened.
CB: That's alright. That's fine. I'm quite happy with any of the, any of the remarks. In the background we can just follow the sequence.
JC: Yes. Then I was taken out of there and put in the food factory. Where they made the bread.
CB: Where was that?
JC: Skeg.
CB: Still in Skegness? Yes.
JC: I was on so may stations. What did we do in the food factory? We made the bread, we made the stock pots, we rendered down the bones, and fat. All sorts of things.
CB: Did you keep the fat, in order to use it as dripping?
JC: Oh yes, the fat was sent to the soap factories.
CB: Okay.
JC: Outside each kitchen, from the taps and the sinks, were big sumps, grease traps. You had to go out and scoop it off. Horrible. One Christmas day I can remember the bells were ringing out over the base, and the wireless was on all day long. On Christmas day. And there were six of us, cleaning the grease traps. And we were singing. And we called ourselves Corporal Lombardini's Grease Trap Songsters. I can remember that (laughs). That's just one occasion.
CB: So, what was the main producer of grease, in the cooking?
JC: Oh from bones and fat of animals. I did butchering. I did cooking, butchery, field kitchen, (pause) I worked in the catering office, I worked on the ration wagons, I did practically everything. My last job was in the catering office.
CB: And in the catering office, what was your job there?
JC: Oh, that was interesting. Working out that each man got the right calories, you know, and all the rations. Which are all in this book (taps the book cover).
CB: I know, but the idea of this is so that people can hear what you've got to say, and then they can pick out bits from anything else.
JC: We didn't have to do vegetables, the ACHD's did that.
CB: What vegetable options were there?
JC: Oh, everything, that was available in those days.
CB: Was it normally grown locally, or did they-?
JC: Yes, well, in Lincolnshire, of course, the farmers used to bring stuff in. That weren't supplied by the, you know, the industry.
CB: Including turnips?
JC: Oh aye, plenty of turnips. Sacks of new potatoes, all sorts of things, I can't remember.
CB: Going back to Innsworth, when you went there and you had to lie on the beds, and er, what was the main activity there, were you being taught about the RAF, or, what were you doing?
JC: Oh yes, lectures every day.
CB: And what were they about?
JC: Oh, everything. They even told you how to have a bath. Even though I'd been washing in a tin bath in front of the fire for years. You had to learn how to do a bath. Um, all the general things.
CB: Yeah, but people don't know what those are, you see.
JC: Oh well, hygiene, and drill and discipline, venereal diseases, keep away from that sort of thing, um.
CB: Did they show you films on some things?
JC: No. It was only just lectures.
CB: And how long did that go on for?
JC: Just about six weeks. And the drill, of course.
CB: And after that, at the end of the six weeks, what did you do then?
JC: I was posted to the cookery school at Melksham, and I was there for I don't know how long. Some weeks?
CB: I'll stop it for a few- (noises off) (pause) Now, what I'm back on to , if I may, is the sequence of what happened. So you joined in Manchester, then you went to Innsworth, and because they were caught out without all the facilities thy had to give you bedding which was straw, in a bag actually. But what were the facilities like? So what they call ablutions is where you wash and clean, what were they like? What was it?
JC: Well, it was just a hut from the, you know, from our billet, a row of hand basins and a row of toilets with three quarter doors on. Concrete floors and duck boards. If they hadn't been burnt the night before to keep warm.
CB: Right.
JC: Is that what you wanted?
CB: Yeah, yeah. So what were the purpose of the duck boards?
JC: To keep you off the concrete floor. For comfort, if you please.
CB: Okay. And how many toilets and washbasins would there be in this block, roughly? Twenty?
JC: I don't think that many. Perhaps a dozen or so. Ten to twelve.
CB: You were on a barrack block of some kind, were you?
JC: Oh yeah.
CB: Was it wooden, or was it a concrete hut?
JC: Is was wooden huts.
CB: Okay. And how many in your hut, roughly?
JC: About eighteen, I would think. But on all other camps I did sleep in Nissan huts, on bunks.
CB: Yes. Okay, and was there an NCO in charge?
JC: Yes, in the cabin, at the front.
CB: And what rank would that NCO be?
JC: Corporal or Sergeant, on other ranks, you know.
CB: Okay. Right. So here we're talking about the Woman's Auxiliary Air Force, so all your reporting line was women? So the Corporal was a woman?
JC: Oh yes.
CB: And so it was segregated from the men?
JC: The men daren't come into the WAAF lines at all.
CB: So, they're in a separate part of the camp?
JC: Yes.
CB: Okay. And did you eat together?
JC: Well, in the kitchens you ate in the kitchen.
CB: I meant the WAAFs in general.
JC: We would (unclear) when we could. Because we were supplied from headquarters, because we were permanent staff on the camp, but we did better by just staying in the kitchen where we were.
CB: Right. I'm talking about the training, so in the training area, in this first, while you were at Innsworth-
JC: I wasn't trained cook there.
CB: I know, but in that training-
JC: Oh yes, yes, all the recruits ate together.
CB: And they were separated, you were separated from the men.
JC: Don't remember any men there at all.
CB: Right. Okay. And then at the end, you then went, you said, to cookery school at Melksham. So what happened there?
JC: We were taught our drill there, you know.
CB: At Innsworth? Okay. How did you get on with drill?
JC: I think I marched more than any other WAAF in the RAF.
CB: Oh. Why was that?
JC: Shall I show him why? (rustle of paper).
CB: I'll have a look in a minute.
JC: (Loud rustling) I'd rather you saw that.
CB: Okay, we'll stop. (Noise of tape machine being turned off)
CB: So you were saying you did more marching. That was because, what did you do? (Pause) You did more marching at Innsworth because of -.
JC: No I didn't, that was where I was taught to march. But we'll go back to that when you round to it.
CB: Oh, okay. That's fine.
JC: Because I could march, I was chosen to do that.
CB: Do do what? What was that? What was it called.
JC: It was Group Captain Innsworth Personal Band.
CB: Right. So that's really important, because these, some of these organisations had more activities than others. I'll stop it.
JC: Even though I shouldn't have done it.
CB: So the Group Captain at Innsworth, what was he?
JC: No, it wasn't at Innsworth. This is all out of context now, see. I was at Melksham.
CB: OK, at Melksham.
JC: I worked about twelve or eighteen months in the kitchens.
CB: At Melksham, so where's that
JC: No. That was the School of Cookery, Melksham.
CB: Right. Yes, so lets go to the school of cookery. What happened then?
JC: And I was posted from there as an SACW (unclear) Two to Wilmslow. It was a PDC, Personnel Dispatch Centre, where they bought all the boys in who were to be sent overseas. Thousands of them. And they ring in my ears still. We had to give them their dry rations. They were trained there, and lectured, and all the rest of it. And two 'o clock, three 'o clock in the morning you could here them going down to the station (beats on the table simulating marching), off to Liverpool. How many came back? How many thousands did us WRAF cooks kiss goodnight to? Can you imagine?
CB: Well, I imagine this is the bit that we need to build in to this whole thing.
JC: When it comes to Remembrance Sunday I'd rather sit on my own, because I wonder how many of those boys never came back home. Nobody understands that, do they?
CB: No. That's why we're doing this on the tape.
JC: That was very -
CB: Emotional?
JC: Yes. In retrospect, not at the time.
CB: So, that's the interesting point, isn't it? So at the time, how did you handle the strain of that?
JC: Well, as well as we could. We did it. We had to do it, we did it. There was no argument about it. You did it. We just got on well together, and did it.
CB: And these were all Air Force people?
JC: Oh yes. They were all airmen. Eighteen, nineteen.
CB: And what was their attitude to what they were doing?
JC: Oh, they were upset weren't they? Some of them cried, some of them wanted to be big men.
CB: Had they been away from home before, or was it all new?
JC: No, most of them hadn't.
CB: Right. And did they know where they were going?
JC: I don't know. We WAAFs kept our mouths shut, and we weren't told what we didn't have to know.
CB: But they were being sent abroad, is what you are saying?
JC: Oh we knew they were going, and we knew what time they were going, but we were sworn to not tell anybody.
CB: This is important, yes. And do you know why they were moved, went in the night?
JC: Of course, secrecy. Down to Liverpool docks. We knew where they we going, but we only knew through NCOs and people who'd confide in us, of course. We weren't told officially. (Long pause). That was that.
CB: Good. How long where you there at Wilmslow?
JC: I'm just trying to think where I went from – I was moved a time or two to fill vacancies. One was up at Crannidge where some of the grounded crews were on rest, where I worked for a few weeks up there in a field kitchen. And Leslie Greenhouse was there. Do you remember me telling you about that (aside). (Pause) And I also went down to St Athan for a few weeks, where I fell in a boiler of boiling vegetable marrow (laughs). Yes.
CB: What was the effect of that?
JC: Well, the effect, the outcome of it was very amusing, actually. I was bandaged from here to here and put in sick bay, and prior to that hams had been missing. Nobody knew where the hams were going. But Jane's sat up in bed in the sick bay, and where the food was kept one of the civilian men, workers on the camp, was going through with a bucket, pinching the ham that was hung into the bucket. (laughs) So I did a bit of detective work there.
CB: So he caught in the end, did he?
JC: Oh yes. That's funny.
CB: Yes. Absolutely.
JC: Richard Murdoch was on that camp.
CB: Was he?
JC: Then I was sent back to Wilmslow. And I worked in the catering office then, this time at Wilmslow. Next door to the office where Ivor Moreton and Dave Kaye, have you heard of those? And two pianos, do you remember them? Busy Fingers. They were two airmen.
CB: And what were they doing?
JC: They were working for BBC in Air Force Blue. And pinching my fire! On a shovel, and into their stove. We had fun, as well.
CB: So what was their actual job?
JC: I think they must have been AGCs, I couldn't think anything else. But also at two camps, Wilmslow and Skegness, was Stanley Tudor who played the organ at the Gaumont in Manchester. And he was always missing. You could hear him on the radio, and he was sweeping out at the NAAFI.
CB: And he was a well known organist?
JC: Oh yes. You've heard of him?
CB: No. It's just what you said, only what you said. So, you went back -
JC: That's where the Lincolnshire bit comes in.
CB: You went back to Linc-, Wilmslow, then you went to Skegness.
JC: Yes.
CB: And what was happening at Skegness, what was it?
JC: Again, recruiting, technical training, command. You know Skegness was taken over by the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force.
CB: Right.
JC: All the infantry were in Skegness, the RAF was at Skegness, and the Navy was up at Butlin's. You know about that?
CB: No.
JC: HMS Royal Arthur. Lord HaHa, what was he called, Lord Haw Haw, he said they'd sunk it. And it was Butlin's camp at Skegness. All this is quite true, you know. And that was where I joined this band.
CB: Yes. Right. So,-
JC: He wanted some WAAFs in it, he thought WAAFs should be in it.
CB: Right, but at Skegness, were you -
JC: I was working at the Imperial.
CB: Yes, but were they Air Force people only?
JC: Oh, no. The Infantry were up at the South.
CB: No. Where you were cooking, were you cooking just for the RAF? Or were you cooking -
JC: Oh yes, only for the RAF. You didn't cook for anybody else.
CB: Right. OK.
JC: The Army cooked for themselves. They were a different thing altogether.
CB: So, where were you in the, what hotel were you in?
JC: The South Parade Hotel. I can remember that. Next door (laughs) dare I tell him this one? Every morning, well not every morning, a WAAF had to go out with one of the SB's to do the early calls, to people on early duty. It was pitch black, you know, very early in the morning. I wouldn't sit on the cross bar of these bikes, because I couldn't do it, but one day, in the dark, I went into the wrong mess, didn't I? I'm going up the stairs shouting, 'come on, wakey, wakey, rise and shine', all the rest of it, opened the doors and there were all brown boots, I was in the Army officer's bedroom (laughs). I went downstairs about two at a time. Shall I tell you what I said to the SB, I said, 'hang on to that cross bar, and peddle like bloody hell', I said, 'get me out of this'. And he never reported it. Now he was a decent man, wasn't he? He realised what had gone wrong. I saw this row of brown boots (chuckles). There were a lot of funny experiences like that.
CB: That's it, What else?
JC: At Skegness, Group Captain Insall came in, he'd had this band with him at Padgate.
CB: So what was his name? Group Captain -
JC: Group Captain Insall. His name's there.
CB: Yes. And he was a VC?
JC: He got a Military Cross in the Army, lost his arm. You've heard about it?
CB: A Military Cross in the Army? Go on.
JC: I don't know how he got the VC, but he was a pilot, of course. And that's how I came to be there. He called me the Yorkshire girl, I'm not a Yorkie, but he always referred to me as the Yorkshire girl. I think he did it to annoy me.
CB: Right, right. He was close. Yes. Ok. So, he was commanding the -
JC: The whole issue.
CB: The whole Air Force issue?
JC: No, not the whole Air Force, just the personnel in Skegness, the (unclear) camps there.
CB: Right. And so what did he want? (Pause) He wanted his own band, yeah? So how did you get in to be a member of his band?
JC: I don't know, think they asked us to go and volunteer. Several of us went along.
CB: But was that because you'd done music before you joined the RAF?
JC: No, I don't know anything about music, not even now.
CB: So what were you playing, in the band?
JC: A drum.
CB: Right. How did you learn how to play the drum?
JC: Oh, little wooden things with rubber, you know? Can you imagine? About that big with a rubber circle.
CB: To learn. Who taught you?
JC: This fellow here.
CB: He was the band master, was he?
JC: No, he was the drum. The Leading Tipper. The Pipe Major was the one stood next to Captain Insall, that's Sergeant Watkinshaw. They were bagpipes, makes it even worse.
CB: So you enjoyed that, did you?
JC: Yes. It got me out the kitchen. Many times. We used to play in Bedford. You know, they had Wings For Victory week and what was the one to get money for warships? There's one in the council offices here (pause) oh, dear.
CB: So they ran fund raise events for the war.
JC: Yes, they used to have the parades in Bedford because the Americans were there. Betty married one.
CB: So how did you meet your American?
JC: How did I? I didn't marry an American. I wouldn't have ought to do with them. (whispers) Don't tell Betty.
CB: Ah, Betty married one.
JC: I just, I was frightened of them, actually.
CB: So he went to a number of these events himself, and took his band with him, is that what it was?
JC: No he didn't. He -
CB: He just sent the band.
JC: Whan he was moved from Skegness, Captain Insall, Group Captain Insall, he was taken to Cardington camp, sent to Cardington camp, and he took every member what's on this picture with him, was posted to Cardington camp.
CB: Right. So when was that? Roughly. You'd been at Skegness for a while.
JC: Yes, quite a long time. (pause) I came out in forty six didn't I, so will be end of forty four.
CB: OK. So you moved to Cardington yourself.
JC: That's right. And I was demobbed from Cardington.
CB: And what did you do at Cardington?
JC: I worked in the catering office, I worked on the bread wagon, I worked on the wet ration wagon, I used to go out every morning with two big trucks, two old civilian drivers, and I had six Italian or German prisoners.
CB: POW's. Yes.
JC: I used to go up to Turvey, to collect the rations, you know, sort them in, sort them out when I got back. And there was a Captain from your lot there. Nichola Woods. Don't know if he's still alive. He maybe.
CB: What's his name?
JC: I can't remember. He had a great big moustache like Jimmy Edwards. And I used to ask for cigarettes for the prisoners. 'If you'll come in the rum store and give me a kiss, I'll give you some cigarettes'. (Laughs) So I went in that rum store, and I gave them some cigarettes. They weren't all bad lads, you know.
CB: So you went out in the trucks to get the local produce.
JC: I went out out, yes, every morning, with two big trucks. Which supplied the whole of the camp. Which had five wings, Cardington.
CB: So what was happening at Cardington?
JC: Technical training. Oh, another interesting thing that happened there, when they liberated Holland, all the Dutch boys came to Cardington to be trained in the RAF. That was quite a, well, it was different. We couldn't understand each other at all. And they planted marigolds all over Cardington camp, it was one mass of orange marigolds. If that's of any interest to anybody, which I don't suppose it is.
CB: Well it is. It is, because it's the significant point about, it's their colour, isn't it, of Holland?
JC: There are two Dutch boys here on this photograph.
CB: It's called, the Royalty, is called the House of Orange, isn't it?
JC: It is, yes. And, oh, I know what. That Queen Willomena, I've got that photograph at home. She came to the camp to decorate two of her pilots. And she spoke to me.
CB: Did she?
JC: Yes. And I couldn't tell what she said, but her interpreter said that she said, 'how do you keep up with these men with your little legs?' (chuckles) That's all I know.
CB: Amazing. Yes. And what else, did you, were you demobbed from Cardington?
JC: I was demobbed from Cardington, at Withall in Birmingham.
CB: Right.(Pause)
JC: I'm sure none of this stuff's of any use to you whatsoever.
CB: It's all vital. Just going back.
JC: I told you I'd never done anything interesting.
CB: Going back to the earlier stages, the reason for having this is because people today have no idea what happened in those days
JC: They don't know who we were.
CB: They don't. They don't even know war. So, when you went to Melksham to train for catering; what happened there? What did they do?
JC: Well, lectures, that's where I did butchery there.
CB: So they taught you butchery. What else did they teach you?
JC: Cookery.
CB: And how did they do that?
JC: It was just like going to school, actually, (unclear), you know
CB: Because the military kitchens catered for lots of people, their equipment was a bit different from being at home.
JC: Ooo, two and three thousand we catered, I have catered up to four thousand at the height of the war.
CB: Right. So what was the equipment like, to be able to do that?
JC: Well, there were big boilers. Have you not seen them, you must have seen them. I took (unclear) of that book with all the pictures in, didn't I? Picture of Lady (unclear) and the WAAF Assoiciation. Massive big boilers.
CB: Right. Big ovens, were there?
JC: Oh yes, big ovens. See, that would be the kitchen, and here was the stoker, and here were steamers, I can see the kitchen, there were six boilers, and there some friers, and there the servers, the NCO servers.
CB: And were they running on gas or coal?
JC: No, they were on coal.
CB: Right. So the stokers were putting coal into them.
JC: Yeah, all night along he was there, it was kept going all the time. Supplied the hot water and the boilers and whatever, the ovens. Hard work.
CB: Yeah. And washing up? How was that handled?
JC: That was done by the SHDD's, and they had washing up machines of a kind, great big, with water coming down, they'd tray them up and put them in thingeys.
CB: So, you did butchering, you did cookery
JC: Field cookery.
CB: Field cookery, so what was the technique for field cookery?
JC: At Skegness I used to go up with them, when it was my turn to do that, to Gibralter Point, where there was a shooting range. And two used to go up there, and you had to build a kitchen with biscuit tins filled with sand, make your own oven (coughs), and cook a meal. For the boys that were up there doing rifle training.
CB: So you filled the tins with sand to make the sides. What did you put on top?
JC: Ee gum, I can't remember that that.
CB: Big slab of steel, was it?
JC: Oh no, nothing sealed it. Oh, you mean for the fire.
CB: For the cooking on the top.
JC: I suppose it was grids, grills. I can't remember every detail, you know.
CB: That's ok.
JC: The highlight of the day was the officer would let you use the rifle, so you could lie at side of him and fire the rifle (laughs).
CB: So you became good at shooting, did you?
JC: Only once. I hurt my shoulder, I didn't do it again. (chuckles) Just once.
CB: What would the menu normally be in the morning?
JC: Porridge. Maybe a fried egg on fried bread, or bacon and tomato. It's all there, in that book.
CB: Good. OK. Then for lunch, what did people have there?
JC: It's all there in that book.
CB: Yeah, but what was it?
JC: A lot of brown stew. We did roast beef, you know, and all the rest of it. And pies, we made pies. They were big pies that were cut up, you know.
CB: And what did the vegetables?
JC: I was just telling Nina, there were big troughs, as big as this.
CB: So maybe three or four feet wide.
JC: Five or six of us, maybe more, up, on our knees, making pastry. Rubbing in the fat into the flour.
CB: And was this on large wooden blocks, that you were making the pastry?
JC: It was concrete floors.
CB: Oh, you made it directly on the concrete floor.
JC: No, they were big troughs, big wooden troughs.
CB: But when you made the pastry?
JC: Oh no. Roll it. To roll it we had tables, and bits. (Aside) Thanks Neil, I'm glad you came.
CB: And then put it into the troughs. Yeah. Ok.
JC: No, you took it out of the troughs into a Hobart mixer where you mix- can you make pastry, by the way?
CB: I'll try later.
JC: You put water in to make it into pastry, and then you rolled it out into these big square tins.
CB: And then te food was in, er, various troughs, but how was it dispensed to the troops? They had to
JC: Oh, sorry, sorry. Yes. Well it went into a servery. Hot plates. You must have seen those, surely. You must have used one of those. With big cupboards.
CB: So there were coal fires underneath?
JC: And then someone, one of the NCO's, would shout 'servery', and everyone had to go and make themselves look respectable. To make sure your hair was tied up in the turban, your hands were clean, and you had to show that your hands were clean. And then we had to, whatever, you know, if you were doing potatoes, you did potatoes. You slid it off with a knife.
CB: Did you give them a choice, or did they have what you gave them?
JC: No, they got what they were given.
CB: And after the main course, they had a pudding?
JC: A sweet, yes.
CB: What did they have for that?
JC: Rice pudding, we made rice puddings, Manchester Tart was a favourite, that was back to pastry. With the jam and the custard. There were various things, don't ask me to remember.
CB: Wholesome things, for people that were energetic?
JC: Pardon.
CB: Wholesome. Food.
JC: There was nothing wrong with it whatsoever.
CB: Exactly. And ten for their evening meal. What did they get for that?
JC: Well, I can't remember that. I know, I know, pease pudding and savaloy, that was one. Another was a herring, they'd get a herring. I can see know, we had a big tub at the side, chopping the heads off the herrings. You get used to it, you know. You can get to it.
CB: At Skegness -
JC: Oh, Spam sandwiches. Spam in a sandwich was one. Beans, baked beans. They all came from America, of course.
CB: And because you were on the coast at Skegness, did you get a lot of fish? Or nothing to do with that?
JC: No. There was no fish at Skegness in those days.
CB: Was there fish normally on the menu?
JC: Well, there was Grimsby, I don't remember fish actually, no. Only herrings, that's all (unclear)
CB: Ok. That's for the airmen, did you do cooking in the Officer's Mess as well?
JC: No. (unclear)
CB: Did they have a different menu there, or was it all the same?
JC: Oh, yes. Of course. Of course.
CB: Did you know what the menu was?
JC: (pause) Oh, it's gone.
CB: That's where they had some cakes, was it?
JC: Oh, The Countess (pause), doesn't matter. She was at our WAAF Association, Diane, Countess of Ilchester, you've heard of her? She was a waitress in the Officer's Mess. She used to say, 'I was in charge of the salt and pepper'. (chuckles) She was nice, Diane. She would only be called Diane, you know. Mustn't refer to her as anything else. She was doing a far more menial job than I was doing.
CB: And proud of it.
JC: She was lovely. You know the story about (unclear) went in to the Observer? He'd come back from doing, what do they call it, well he'd been out on a raid, whatever, and he was having a bath, and the siren went, and this is absolutely true, it was printed in the newspaper at his death, and all the WAAF's were in their own air raid shelter, of course, because the sirens had gone, and he ran in naked, the Earl of Ilchester. And Diane was at the back, and she shouted. 'he's mine!'. And he married her. (Laughs) You ask Betty, she knows that story.
CB: So how did the liaison go with men in the Air Force, then? The relationships.
JC: Oh fine. You got some rough stuff, you know, didn't you. Some were a bit cheeky, went a bit too far. I never experienced anything really bad. One Corporal smacked my bottom one day as he walked past, and I picked up a dipper and smacked him round the face with it, and he said, 'You're on a charge'. (Laughs) That's true.
CB: And what happened?
JC: Nothing. He daren't, dare he? That was Corporal Lombardinerie, the pastry bloke. Hmm. He didn't do it again.
CB: We'll stop there for a mo.
CB: So clearly, in the catering system in London there were people who were fairly sophisticated chefs. Did the Air Force use these people to train you?
JC: They used them to work in the cook-house. They used them as cooks, we were all the same. There was two grades. There was a cook or a cook-butcher. One got a bit more money than the other, perhaps it was coppers.
CB: What did the cook-butcher do? That was different?
JC: They could say to you go on cutting meat up or whatever.
CB: Right. So it's knowing how to cut the meat that's the butchering, is it?
JC: Oh yes. We had to, what I couldn’t do, draw the animal, you know, like you see in the butcher's shops. I know how to buy a piece of meat, don't I?
CB: But the animals came in slaughtered?
JC: Oh yes.
CB: But not cut up?
JC: That's right.
CB: Soi that's why the cook-butcher was there, to convert that into the -
JC: We had a Polish butcher there, too. He was horrible.
CB: So did you, bearing in mind that the animal is whole when it arrives, did you do steaks as a result of that? Or chops?
JC: Well if they did that, I never saw any. I think they may have gone to the Officer's Mess.
CB: So the meat was mixed up was it?
JC: That's what I used to collect from Turvey, the wet rations. The dry rations were supplied by the NAAFI, that was the sugar, the flour, the salt. And all the, all the wet rations came from Royal Army Service Corps.
CB: Right. And they supplied the RAF because they dealt with everybody's catering. And what about the hierarchy? So you were working as a chef, effectively.
JC: Cook. They call them chefs now, they've gone all posh now.
CB: Cook, yes. So you were, what rank were you when you finished?
JC: When I finished? Well, I did two courses at Wilmslow for promotion to NCO, but if I'd gone I couldn't have stayed with the band, and I wanted to stay because I was enjoying my little bit.
CB: So what was your rank?
JC: LACW. But I did have a Good Conduct stripe, so now you know I'm (unclear)
CB: Right. That's really good.
JC: (Rustle of paper) There it is, see.
CB: I can see it on your picture.
JC: (Laughs) So I did behave myself a little bit. There's some they never found out about, or heard about, of course (chuckles).
CB: In the kitchen, what was the hierarchy there? There were Corporals, and/or Sergeants?
JC: Oh yes. There'd be so many ACW 2's, so many 1, LACW Corporal, Sergeant, Flight Sergeant, and Warrant Officer, because they were big kitchens, you know. But the Warn Officer would hv two or three kitchens, it wouldn't be confined to the one.
CB: How many people would be in a kitchen, roughly?
JC: You mean really working? Perhaps seven or eight. In the back, where the ACHG is, mostly men, doing the potatoes and all the wet stuff.
CB: The dangerous stuff with the knives.
JC: They were members of this band.
CB: Were they? Yep.
JC: Shall I tell him the other bit? There was a photographer at headquarters in Skeg, no, in Cardington. And this was the day Queen Willomena came to the camp. You can see all the top brass here. And this photographer thought I was a bit of alright. So he took my photograph, so like an idiot I walked into the potato room and said, 'who is the smartest member of this band? Well, I am.' And do you know what they did? They picked me up and dropped me in the potato thing, full of water and potatoes. (laughs)
CB: Not very nice. How did that effect the flavour?
JC: Haven't a clue. (laughs). But that's what happened.
CB: So you then had to put your uniform to the wash.
JC: That's right.
CB: I'm just going to stop again.
JC: Blimey, Charlie. I met my husband at the Royal Air Force Association in Edgware, at the Station Hotel.
CB: When was that?
NH: Was it after the war finished, Jane?
JB: Gosh, it must be nineteen forty nine, because Peter was born nineteen fifty, wasn't he?
CB: Ok, forty nine. And what were you doing there?
JB: I was working in the office at Ferrodo, Kings Cross. Because I couldn't settle back here. And I had a boyfriend who worked in the bank, the National Provincial, an airman. And I went down to be with him, originally. Went to the club because he'd lost all his training, he was apprentice aircrew (unclear), and that's where I met my first husband. And he was an Italian.
CB: What was his name?
JB: John Branner. And his father was the Managing Director of Gamba shoes, Soho, have you heard of them?
CB: I have. Yes. So he always wore good shoes.
JB: Do you know him?
CB: No.
JB: You don't know him, well I can carry on then. They were Roman Catholics, we did like, you think you've fallen in love, don't you, and you get married, and I wasn't good enough for his family.
CB: Because you weren't a Catholic.
JB: Yes. Straight on the head.
CB: And they wanted you to convert, did they?
JB: Unfortunately there was a child on the way, and he left me six weeks before Peter was born, with no home, and half a crown.
CB: Good god.
JB: And they fought me and fought me, and they never got anywhere. And it was all very sad. And it still is sad, isn't it?
CB: Yes.
JB: Then, when Peter was sixteen, his maintenance from that father, oh, I'll tell you what they did, they said he was only earning eight pounds a week, so they put him on the payroll, at the shop.
CB: This is John Branner?
JB: Yes. So they didn't have to pay maintenance. I had two pounds ten shillings a week. I rented a cottage here in this village for seven and sixpence a week, and I brought him up. When Peter was sixteen his maintenance stopped, but Peter was still at college in Buxton, and I needed money to keep him, fares, 'til he was eighteen years on. Well, it went on and on, they kept saying the case wasn't prepared, so my solicitor said, 'well, the thing to do Jane, is to apply to the National Assistance Board,' he said, 'and they will make you a payment, but you'll have to give it them back, because they've got to pay all the back money that is owing to you, obviously'. And, dare I tell him? (chuckles)
CB: Go on.
JB: The man that came stood on my doorstep, he had a suitcase in his hand, and he walked in and said, 'what a beautiful little home you've got here, I'd give anything to live here.' And that man proposed to me the week after.
CB: And his name was?
JC: John Carrington. And (pause), what was it he said?
NH: He'd been looking for you.
JC: He wanted to take me somewhere, I said, 'no', I said, 'I can't go anywhere, I've got a little job that I can't afford to lose.' There was a dentist in the village, and me and my friend who's deaf, and his wife still is, and I used to babysit their three children, look after them. I said I'd got to go. 'And where's this?' An I explained to him where, and all the rest of it. And at night o' clock that night there was a knock on the door (knocks), I opened the door, and there he was stood on the step. 'And what are you doing here,' I said. He said, 'I've come to tell you I've been looking for you for fifty years, and I'm never going to let you out of my sight again. And he never did.
CB: Fantastic.
JC: He was the most wonderful husband. He bought me the most expensive jewellery, (unclear). And he'd been a bachelor, and he'd also served in Burma. He was an Executive Officer in the Civil Service. He was General Christensen's wireless operator on his aeroplane. Three and a half years, wasn't he, in Burma. And life was sweet all at once. Shall I carry on?
CB: Yes, keep going, I want to hear it.
JC: And do you know, that son of mine has never spoken to me since. (long pause) He would walk past me in the street, wouldn't he. I gave him my all.
CB: Did he ever have any contact with his father?
JC: No, he went down. I took him three times down. The first time I took him Peter was three months old, I still had friends, I lived in Mill Hill, with friends, they were still friends. He walked out of the shop with me, and we had a coffee, and he said, 'I'm going to look for a flat, Jane.' I never heard from him again. So I took him again, but his father made sure he didn't see him. And Peter's been down on his own, and they've turned him away. I bought in iPad, that might amuse you at ninety odd, but I did.
CB: Very impressive.
JC: And I found out on that iPad his mother, who caused the trouble, died when she was sixty. He died in twenty three, been dead a long time, his father. And they must have left a terrific lot of money.
CB: Did John Branner marry again?
JC: And they had a house in St John's Wood, London, on erm, what's it called Barrack? Oh I don't know what it's called, well I do know, it'll come to me in a minute, when my mind, it's delayed action. And I found out on the iPad, it's been rented since his death for four thousand, four hundred and forty one pounds a month, so that house must be worth well over a million pounds, mustn't it? And Peter never got a penny. And I think that's wrong. Whatever they thought about me should not effect Peter.
CB: No. What happened to Peter?
JC: Well, I don't know what's happening, Nina knows more about him than me, she lives next to him, don't you?
CB: But he's local, is he?
NH: He lives in Chapel. He's retired now, he was working at Swizzles, wasn't he? He was a foreman there, at the sweet factory.
CB Very distressing. Extraordinary.
JC: It's not good news.
CB: Did John Branner have any brothers or sisters?
JC: No.
CB: Right. And did he re-marry after divorcing you?
JC: No. But, shall I tell you more? It's nought to do with this thing.
CB: No, but it is because it's part of your life.
JC: It isn't my life, it's his life. I found out from my iPad he's living with a Mary (aside) what was her other name?
NH: I don't know, I can't remember.
JC: Tommy Cooper's mistress, whose husband was a composer. They're all in the theatrical. Mary what? Kay! Mary Kay, K-A-Y, Kay. I found out all this on my computer, I mean the iPad.
CB: Amazing. How old was John Carrington when he died?
JC: He was born in nineteen twenty three, and he died in two thousand and three. Eighty, was he, eighty one, eighty two. He was an airman. And I think they took advantage because his father was reporting to the police station every week.
CB: John Carrington?
JC: John Carr-, John Branner's father. My first father in law. And he goes along, and he couldn't have a commission because his father's, do you get the message? So do you know what job they gave him? Bomb loader. I thought that was very pointed. I don't think he should have been, I don't think he was deserving of that. Because he was British, a British subject. He was born, I think on Wardour Street. There you are, that's nothing to do with the -
CB: Well , it's part of your life isn't it? John Carrington died in two thousand and three?
JC: Yes.
NH: No, you're getting mixed up.
CB: I'm going to stop this.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Jane Carrington
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-02-07
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00:57:06 audio recording
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Sound
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ACarringtonJ170207
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Jane Carrington joined the Women's Auxiliary Air Force in 1942 at the age of 18. She served as a cook, and volunteered to join the band as a drummer. She discusses her time in the kitchens, the menus and the equipment they used.
Contributor
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Peter Adams
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eng
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Royal Air Force
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Great Britain
England--Bedfordshire
England--Lincolnshire
England--Wiltshire
entertainment
ground personnel
Military Cross
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Cardington
RAF Melksham
RAF Skegness
sanitation
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/160/3631/ATolleyF150702.1.mp3
1f262a350f3520a97a72c9378cac3278
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Tolley, Frank
F S Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. An oral history interview with Sergeant Frank Stanley Tolley (b. 1921, 1152777 Royal Air Force), his log book and four photographs. Frank Tolley was a Lancaster bomb aimer with 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. He completed 22 daylight and night time operations before the end of the war in Europe and also flew on Operation Manna, Operation Dodge and Cook's tours.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frank Tolley and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-02
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Tolley, FS
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AM: Ok. So this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Annie Moody, and the interviewee is Frank Tolley. And this interview is taking place at Mr Tolley's home in Sale near Manchester on the second of July, two thousand and fifteen. So, we've talked a little bit about what, what we er, want you to talk about, Frank. Perhaps if you could just start off with with you date of birth, and where you were born.
FT: According to my certificate I was born on the twentieth of July, nineteen twenty one, in Tipton, which was then Staffordshire, now West Midlands.
AM: Right. And what, what, erm, what was your early life like, what did your parents do?
FT: My father was a railway signalman. My mother was a stay-at-home mother, and er working at home. She er, she never went out to work after she married. Erm.
AM: What about family? Did you have brothers and sisters?
FT: I had three younger brothers, no sisters. I didn't know anything at all about girls. When, er you were growing up it was sissy to know girls in my day. (Laughs) How times have changed. No it was all pals. You were always kicking a ball around with pals, or using a bat or whatnot, or cycling. Yeah. Life was great, it was super. (slight pause) School-days. But, er, like most families in the twenties, we were very poor. Dad had to have his smoke, and his ale (unclear), and he was an ex-service World War One Royal Marine, but he received a pension because he developed pneumonia, and became unfit for duty any more, and he used to have his pension, his pocket money, and when he came home he'd turn over all of his wage to my mother, and she had to do the best she could with it. I well remember, I think it was nineteen twenty six or seven, the General Strike. I thought it was great having Dad at home all the time. We were on the coal banks picking coal, and I remember my mother crying on one occasion, and I learned later that Dad had been to the branch office of the union, and came back with a two pound bag of sugar and a quarter of tea, quarter pound of tea. That's all they had coming in for the week. But apparently my maternal grandparents subsidised us during the strike time. To add insult to injury, er, when my father went back he went back for a wage less than he was getting before. That, that's how it was, they came- it was the General Strike! Everybody seemed to come out. The miners started, but er, the miners went back eventually, they left the railwaymen holding the baby, so to speak, (chuckles) and that's – I'm repeating not from what I've read, but from what I learned and what I was told during that time, you see. Yep. And (pause) during that time I did get a place at Tipton Central, which became a grammar school. I only went there for three months, and my father was upgraded, but it meant that he had to move to another signal box which was a few miles away, and we moved out of Staffordshire into Worcestershire. My parents were ignorant to the fact that I could have had a transfer, so I went back to an ordinary school, and left there when I was fourteen. I had to go and get the first job I could to help the family exchequer, my mother. I wanted to go into an office, not realising that as an office boy all you did was lick stamps and put them onto er-, and run errands. The only job I could get, apart from going into a factory, and I didn't want to do that, was as an errand boy with a grocers. Fifty four hours a week for ten shillings a week. When you weren't developing er, delivering orders, you would be in the back of the shop working there, and I lifted – (background beeps and rustling of papers)
AM: So we just had a pause while there was somebody at the door, and Frank was talking about working at the grocers, so off you go Frank.
FT: And then I say, when you wasn't delivering your orders, one of the jobs I did was working at the back of the shop, lifting, I was fourteen remember, hundredweight casks of butter from floor to table. It's a wonder we weren't ruptured, yes, yes a hundredweight would be about er, fifty kilos. It's quite, er, quite a weight to be lifting at that time, cheeses were sixty pounds, and you had to (unclear). And then, another job was having a load of goods in a basket, put on my arm, and sent round side streets selling to women who was waiting for Friday to get paid, and I'd got to try and sell what I had in my basket. It was, it taught you how to work, but it was hopeless, I, I didn't like the job, and when I saw anybody from school, that had left, coming along, I would dodge down a side street because I felt ashamed doing the job that I was, a proper little snob, really (laughs). Because I wanted to do better than what I was doing, that was life's end, and sadly, very sadly, it was the war that gave me my, my opportunity. It was. Joining the RAF was like, er, university for me, met all types.
AM: So, what year did you join?
FT: Nineteen forty when I was er, just after I was nineteen. I would have been called up when I was twenty, but I had a hankering, because I was keen on photography, I used to print my own, and I thought it would be good to be an aerial photographer, not realising it wasn't manual any more, it could be done automatically, and all that, and anyhow, I joined the RAF, and became a ground gunner, and then, when the Regiment was formed, I was one of the founding members of the RAF Regiment. But I was with them for about eighteen months before I was accepted for flying, and er-
AM: What sort of things did you do in the Regiment?
FT: I hadn't got a School Certificate, you see, I didn't have a School Certificate, so I couldn't go directly for flying, but (slight pause) one night I was, in the Regiment, I was manning Hispano-Suiza cannon, the type they had in the fore-wing of the Spitfire and Hurricane, and Gerry passed over our airfield, which was near Nuneaton, it was called Bramcote, RAF Bramcote, to bomb Coventry, but they were too high for the range of this Hispano-Suiza, and next day I went home, hitch-hiked through Coventry, I lived on the West side of Birmingham, of course saw Coventry and saw how, how things were (unclear), and though, 'hells bells, if this war is going to be won, it's going to be won from the air'. That was my reaction. I wasn't being disparaging about the Army, or the Navy, but I felt that's how this war was going to be won. Went back, expressed my sentiments to the fellows in the barrack room, and said, 'look, we have automatic weaponry training, I'm going to see if I can become an air gunner'. And several others, three or four others said, 'that's an idea, we'll join you'. The next week, we went on the same afternoon, but separately, for interviews before the, er, the station commander, the squadron commander, the padre, and the education officer. And er, er, my colleagues, they were accepted straight away, and left the Regiment within three weeks, but they offered me, much to my surprise and delight, the PNB scheme that was to train as pilot, navigator, or bomb aimer. Jingo! If there's a chance of being a pilot, when the war's finished I'm going to be alright! That was me. So I gladly accepted that, apart from which, it was top rate of pay for (unclear). (chuckles) And, but, I had to wait over six months for my course to come through, and do you know that, it was just luck of the draw, my colleagues that had gone as air gunners, they'd all had the chop, they'd all been killed. These three of four of them, including my best pal, and he came from Walton in Liverpool, he was twenty one, and this was in nineteen forty three, and he can only have done three or four operations, (pause) from (pause) I have his memorabilia, which I've had from er, well memorandum actually, from the Imperial War Museum, from the computer there, and I've got the er, grave where he was buried, which was in Belgium, the grave row and number, and maybe this year, if I can, er, I'll go across there, put a British Legion cross, wooden cross on, on his grave. I can't remember the names of the others, but it's er, it's just how, how things were. And, er -
AM: So when you started your training.
FT: Yes, I went up to Scarborough for the, erm, initial training, which was groundwork, and learning the the, er, constellations, because we, we needed this later on, we needed to know the stars, and whatnot. And then, following that, went to an airfield near Carlisle to fly in Tiger Moths, twelve hours in Tiger Moths, but I didn't solo. Some did, some sort of got it very quickly, but I had some ear trouble, and I couldn't hear, and I was scared stiff to report this because I didn't want to be dropped off. And, anyhow, from there I came up to Manchester for the first time, went to Heaton Park, and there was a holding unit to decide what we would train for, be it pilot, navigator, or bomb aimer, and I, I knew it wouldn't be pilot because I hadn't soloed, And (slight pause) from there you went to Canada, or from, or to South Africa for your training, but the camp was chock-a-block with us cadets, and a number of us were billeted with local families, and I was billeted with a Jewish family in Prestwich. The first time I'd had any dealings with Jews, they were delightful people, thoroughly enjoyed it. Could be the fact that I met, was introduced to, one of the neighbour's daughters, and we palled up whilst I was there (chuckles). And anyhow, went to Canada. I couldn't tell my parents where I was going, but I, I said, when I went on embarkation leave, that, 'when I know, I will write to you, and put five ha'penny stamps on the letter if I'm going to Canada, or two penneth and a ha'penny stamp if I'm going to South Africa.' They had the letter with five ha'penny stamps on, so they knew where I was going. I was away for about five or six months, and do you know, whilst I was over there, I met a (slight pause) a physical training instructor, a sergeant, who lived in the same road as myself, he was two years ahead of me at school, two years older than me at school, and he'd been training over here in Manchester, paratroopers. He'd done quite a number of jumps himself, and so they just sent him across to Canada, for a break, I suppose, doing two years over in Canada, as a physical training instructor. And he was shopping, as I was, when we met, for his, his daughter, who'd been born just a week or two after he'd got over to Canada. And I said, 'well, I'll be going back shortly, I'll take those back for you'. Because, his brother worked for the same company as myself, and this I did, I took them for his wife. Later on, another coincidence, when war had finished, to find us something to do before the squadron stood down, we went over to Italy to bring troops back for demob. They'd come back with us in three hours, or by land and sea in three days, and some of them had been out there for years, and I suppose they thought, 'well we've come through all this, we might just as well finish off going with these, with this crazy bunch', and we could put in twelve, lying down in the fuselage, and we left one gunner behind, and took one with us to hand out the sick bags. And I would have a couple of them coming into the nose, give them a break, let them see just what happened, because I had a good viewing in those-, upwards, sideways, and downward, so yes, so they liked that. But the first time we came back, I remember, one chap must have had it blooming hard, because once he got out, as soon as he got out of the aircraft, he kissed the ground.
AM: Yes.
FT: Yeah, yeah, was so touching to see.
AM: So glad to be back. Tell me a bit about the training in Canada, what was that like?
FT: Oh, (unclear) I went first of all to (pause) Pingo. On the north shoreline of Lake Erie to do bombing and gunnery. Did bombing in Avro Ansons, and the gunnery in Blenheims. And then did navigation, went to No.1 AOS, Air Navigation School of the Canadian Air Force, in Malton, that was near Toronto, 'Torronno', they called it, Toronto, and we did, I think about six weeks of a navigator's course, you know, just in case the navigator went for a burton then you'd be able to muddle through (chuckles), probably. But the only navigation that I did was when we went to, over to Italy, in the daylight, and give our navigator a rest, let him take a view all round. I, I navigated us there. But there were times when I had to go into the astrodome that was between the pilot's cabin, er, the pilot's area, and the mid upper gunner, which you saw there, and I would have the astro compass with me, and I would take, and this is where you learned about the stars, the different constellations, I would take a shot of two stars, and the readings on the compass from those two stars I would pass down to the navigator, and providing I'd given him the names of the right stars for him to check, and my readings were correct, he would then plot them onto his Mercator chart, and where the cross was, he would relate that to the cross that he'd got, to see just how near, or how far, he was away, and, you know, that helped sometimes. On one occasion we had the scanner knocked off, and, I think that was on Cologne, and that was a bad night, we lost, we lost three from our, our airfield on that occasion (pause) quite a lot, (pause) lost that night, it seemed as though the Germans knew every turning point that we made, and our gunners had to call out whether they saw aircraft shot down, for the navigator to plot, but they were calling through so many that the pilot said, 'don't call out any more, the navigators got enough to do to get us there'. That's how it was. And weaving and doing, we weren't lost, so to speak, we were unsure of our position. And then suddenly, I saw lights ahead, and I said, 'bloomy, we're coming over Switzerland, and they opened a token barrage at us, not, not to hit us but to show that we were over their territory, and the navigator gave a general direction course from that for home, and daylight broke before we crossed the coast in France, and I was able from my maps, I was able to give the navigator a pinpoint, and he just, 'alter course, only very slightly', to the pilot, and he brought us (pause) over-
AM: He brought you home.
FT: Yes, yes. Aye.
AM: Just going back to the training, you did the training in Canada (FT agreeing in background) to be a bomber, you did some navigation, but the bomb aimer training. So what was that like, the bomb aimer training part of it?
FT: Oh, well it was very much hit and miss. The bomb sight that we had there was the -, not a patch on the one that we used, that's because it was a computerised one that we had before. And er, there was a bigger barrel on the er, aiming, er, in every target area, and you went with the bigger barrel, and if you hit the bigger barrel or you-, that was it. But nobody ever hit the bigger barrel. (chuckles) We got near to it at times. It, it was fun. It just gave you some idea, and you were firing on, at a drone that was being towed by another aircraft, you see, and there were several of you firing at the same drone, but you, you had different er, coloured, er (pause) the bullets were painted or something. Anyway, they knew from the colour of the surrounding holes who'd fired, do you see, and how they, they related your proficiency as a gunner. Not, we only did this to be able to operate the guns. But, I had to on one occasion, not to operate, I had to take the place of our rear gunner. He was a bigger fellow than I was. His, er, he wore a heated jacket, you plugged it in, as I could in the nose, because there are two cold places. His went for a burton on one occasion, and he passed out. We couldn't make any contact with him at all. But I had to go down, get him out, bring him up, and fill him with coffee and get him thawed out, but I had to take his place for a couple of hours. Oh, was I glad that I wasn't an air gunner. You swung to port or to starboard, and your back was exposed, and up there between twenty five and thirty thousand feet,
AM: Cold.
FT: Oh, blooming cold. Be alright for baling out, I suppose, but oh, it was cold and so cramped, too.
AM: Especially if he was bigger than you.
FT: He was, yes.
AM: When you got to the end of your training, what happened then, then, you, how, you came back from Canada?
FT: Yes, yes, came home from Canada, and went to advanced flying unit, you know, to be, er, flying again in Ansons for er, (pause) bombing, er, going on to do bomb sights, and the navigators were there as well, doing navigation exercises and whatnot. And I was operating a camera then, a hand held er, to er, we would be told to photograph at a certain position, and I have several photographs. Some a mile away, some dead on, which was quite good, was important to everybody that er, were able to read the maps, to er, sufficiently to get on that right spot. So that was good. And er, our pilot, after he left us, he got the DFC for er, because we had some good bombing results. But er, (AM interrupts) the pilot and I, we met, after advanced flying unit, we had to go to operational training unit, OTU, and the pilot and I, we arrived within minutes of each other. He was then a warrant officer, and I was still a sergeant, and he and I were put into the same nissen hut. Nobody else in there, we were chatting away there for half an hour. So, we seemed to be getting on. He was an Australian, he'd been over here for a little while, he'd been flying, I forget what, aircraft that they trained the radio operators in, so he'd done quite a bit of flying in this country. And we seemed to get along quite okay. He was a bit younger than me. And he said, 'we'll be queuing up tomorrow,' and then in the next breath said, 'would you like to be my bomb aimer?' And you know, 'why not?', I thought, so I said, 'yes', because we seemed to get along quite well, and I suppose he thought I was okay, and I thought he was okay. Next morning, I was (unclear) around, and he went out and he er, met the gunners, who'd trained together, and the radio operator, and navigator. The navigator didn't stay with us, only for one or two trips, he was a bit behind, so he was given more training there, and we collected a navigator who'd like-ways been in his position, but he was alright, was Bill Porter, we got along quite well with him. He, his home had been bombed down in Essex. Anyhow, we crewed up and did bombing and navigation operations, training from Moreton in the Marsh, and then we moved, we were flying then in Wellingtons, and that's where I, er, handled the aircraft. I would have to have taken over if the pilot had gone, though goodness knows what would have happened, but that's how it went. But when we went to the conversion unit, to go onto four engines, we did just a couple of circuits and bumps in a Halifax, and then they decided er, because they had some Lancasters come in, that we go on to Lancasters, which from the pilot's and my point of view was a much better proposition, that we have to get on to the Lancs. And there we picked up our flight engineer, and with four engines you needed to have a flight engineer, and he was very good. He'd got it almost to a pint, the amount of fuel you had. But he was also a pilot, he was one of these surplus to requirements towards the end, and so a number of them were sent to St Athens(?) to do a flight engineer's course. He was a bit uptight, a bit upset about that because he'd trained to be a pilot, and he wanted to be a pilot. But in doing that I would have been likewise, but it so happened that he had to be er, a flight engineer. But on one occasion when we were still flying dual controlled aircraft, after our pilot had been passed as being okay, we were flying around and Bruce let (pause), I forget his name.
AM: It's gone.
FT: Jo! Jo Platt, land it. He was there ready to take over, but Jo Platt made a perfect landing. 'Oh, thank heaven for that. Hope neither of them get, get done, because I wouldn't want to be taking over on a big aircraft like this'. But, we were alright. We were hit on a couple of occasions, like I say we had the radar scanner knocked away, which may have saved our life, our lives, on that occasion. That was when we went to (pause) Nuremburg
AM: Nuremburg.
FT: and we got lost on the way back. And so the (pause) Jerry, because our scanner had gone, he couldn't track on, on to you. Apparently, what happened when we had the H2S working,
AM: The H2S?
FT: Yes, H2S that was called, that was the forerunner of the television and computer, yeah.
AM: Okay
FT: So, getting (pause) Jerry used to track on that, and so to counteract that, in the nose, I used to have bundles and bundles of tin foil to drop through the window chute to scatter about, and it blocked, it blocked their readings, you know, and stopped them tracking us. You know, imagine all these pieces of tin foil, they'd be about so long, and be about that wide, and be opened and scattered, you know, it reminds one of the, er (pause)
AM: So Frank was showing me how long they were, and they were about twelve inches long and a couple of inches wide.
FT: No, they wouldn't have been a couple of inches wide
AM: Less than that, an inch.
FT: This is, it certainly did the trick, dropped through the window chute. We used the window chute firstly because other than that when you needed to go to the loo, you had to go down, and it was situated behind the pilot's, er, behind the rear gunner's place, but we up front, we carried a jam tin, and we used that, and it would be passed down to me to pour down the window chute, otherwise, you see, you'd have to er, take off your oxygen, and take your oxygen bottle down with you (chuckles) it was all very crude compared to today’s flying, sort of thing. But it did us alright. But I did see the result of a miracle on one occasion, we, we'd been debriefed from one raid, we were going off to the mess, and a crew comes in and the bomb aimer is carrying his parachute, and it's torn to ribbons. He had a piece of flak about that long, with the widest part about like that. He'd clipped his chute on, as he always did before a bombing run, leaning over the target, er over the bomb sight, and this had come through, hit him in the chest, (unclear) at the foot of the pilot's controls, and he wasn't marked at all, yet it had torn his chute to ribbons, and he, you know, he was just (unclear) hanging with his (unclear) and they said, with this piece of flak. But his crew, they were going on leave the next day, so I suppose the rot set in, you know, the shock, when this thing hit him when, when he got home, but it's amazing how these things happen, 'cause another crew, on another occasion, brought their bomb aimer, he, he, he had the chop whilst they were up there. But they brought him back, they didn't drop him out. They brought him back. Yes, it was-
AM: Just going back to, you finished your training, you crewed up, you got your pilot, your whole crew (FT agreeing in background), so what squadron did you-?
FT: Six two five
AM: You were in six two five, where was that based from?
FT: That was over in (pause) Kelstern, that was the satellite airfield from Binbrook, Binbrook was the main one. Oh, it was very hard there, the sleeping quarters in the nissen hut was, oh, a good half hour away from the airfield, and the (pause) briefing and debriefing room, and the mess and whatnot (background noises, lawnmower)
AM: I'm just going to-. Okay, we think the strimmer's gone, so we'll continue, so erm, you're in Binbrook, in the nissen huts.
FT: We weren't in Binbrook, we'd like to have been in Binbrook
AM: Oh. You were in the satellite to Binbrook.
FT: Yes. It was very, very hard, in fact we had, we ran out of food, they hadn't even got food to us because er, vehicles couldn't bring food to us and we were there on the airfield trying to dig snow away for the runway, but to no avail, there was far too much, and as I say, we had to have food dropped to us, bread never tasted so good (chuckles). But it was, it was alright, but, you know-
AM: Did you fly your first oper-
FT: We did, we flew- we, we went, we joined the squadron in January forty five, and it wasn't until February the first that we flew our first operation. We had been, er what, er, briefed about eight or nine times and er, (papers rustling in background) I think the second, the second of February when we did our first op, but from my log book I'd copied, I'd lost this, and I found it again, and I've two more, more sheets describing the operations.
AM: So these are some details of the operations that you're showing me now, Frank.
FT: Yes, and-
AM: Might try and get a copy of that afterwards, if that's okay
FT: Oh yes, I can get copies on there for you, but you will see Dresden on here, if I can find some specs (long pause), yeah, here you are, Dresden. Gives you an idea. That was nine hours ten minutes, that flight, and the next night eight hours fifty minutes we went to Chemnitz. From the time of taking off at er, ten to ten at night for Dresden, and returning from Chemnitz , landing from Chemnitz, that was thirty three hours, which is eighteen hours flying in thirty three hours, and the rest of the time we, we'd been to bed, we'd been had three meals, we'd been debriefed from Dresden, and briefed for Chimnitz, but there was no aircrew medal for us.
AM: No.
FT. No, no, we had the France-Germany one which whether you were in action or whether you were desk-bound, or whatever, and desk-bound were people were needed, of course, in Germany, in France and Germany as well as those in action, but there was no distinction, but what happened, last year the Prime Minister decreed that aircrew that didn't receive the Aircrew Europe Medal should have a clasp with Bomber Command on it to go on the thirty nine forty five star, which happened, the er, the fighter pilots in the Battle of Britain, they had a similar clasp to go on the same ribbon with Fighter Command on it, and that, that was just to show that we were aircrews.
AM: Indeed. You were showing me some of the operations that you went on, there, Dresden and, how many operations did you do?
FT: Er, twenty two bombing, but I bombed on twenty occasions, not twenty two, and er, did Operation Manna, did four of those jobs.
AM: Yeah. Tell me about the difference, then, between the bombing runs and Operation Manna.
FT: Oh, it was such a relief after all the bombing to be doing Operation Manna. Sadly, it had to be done, they were dying in their thousands, and the Germany commander of the Western province knew it was all over bar the shouting, and he accepted that a truce be arranged so that we could go over there unmolested with the bomb bays full of food parcels to drop at different points. And, this was fixed for the first of May nineteen forty five, but they were so desperate, as I say they were dying in their thousands of starvation, that the RAF went on the twenty ninth and thirtieth of Feb-, of April, before the truce was official. And we flew at between three hundred and four hundred feet across the North Sea to er, well the first two drops er, before the truce, was in the Hague area, and my crew, we did another two after that to Rotterdam, but we went on leave then, so we, we, we didn't do the eight. The Americans went on the first of May, and they, er, they dropped six thousand tons in six drops in from Flying Fortresses, and we did seven thousand and twenty tons from, from Lancasters in eight, eight drops. And the story goes that the Americans, when they programmed this, they said they were the first to drop food to the Dutch. When I heard this I thought, but my log book proved that that was wrong, and I thought, 'no mate, but they were right'. Maybe they were the first to drop food to the Dutch once the truce had been signed, but we'd been twice before, but that was not mentioned in their programme (chuckles). I can't say, 'because they didn't know', because both forces knew what the others were doing, sort of thing. (unclear) Dresden, because they realised what had happened, what we'd done, the Americans went the next morning to bomb nothing there, just to be part of it.
AM: That was the Dresden bombs that you're talking about.
FT: Because there was no doubt about it, it was a genocidal raid, er, they say twenty five thousand were killed on that one night.
AM: Did you think that at the time, Frank, or were you, at the time you were just doing your job?
FT: Well when we, yes, when we went over there on that one, it was just one, I think we were third wave, it was just one mass of fire and flame, and the master bomber, I remember he called to us, 'overshoot five seconds'. That's a thousand and one, a thousand and two, that's how you got your five seconds. Didn't use the bomb sight, you just released them. He'd have done better just telling us to scoot off, go back. But, I tell you, twice we didn't bomb. On one occasion we went to (long pause) Breman, I think it was, on army support, and as we approached them it was ten tenths cloud, and when we got into the area the master bomber was calling us down, there was about three hundred of us, I was scared stiff, he was calling us down, so we could-, it was on a daylight, we couldn't see each other going through cloud, and I liken it to driving a car at sixty miles an hour, nose to tail, in fog (chuckles). That's how it seemed to me. Oh, I was glad when the master bomber called, 'Return to base'. We couldn't break cloud-base, and we didn't want to be doing as had happened on another occasion before, friendly bombing, you know, er, bombing your own troops, or your own people, so the master bomber said return to base, and we returned to base with er, landing with full bomb loads.
AM: With full bomb loads?
FT: Yeah, but you see, we hadn't, we hadn't got into the target area for me to do the necessary, so the pins were still stuck in the fuses. Yeah. But, er, there was that time, another time, when I said I wasn't bombing. That was in Nordhausen and we went to Nordhausen where the Germans had built, underground, a factory to replace the one that Bomber Command had bombed out at Peenemunde, where they were making the V1 and V2 rockets.
AM: Yeah
FT: And when we got over there again it was ten tenths cloud, and there were no over (unclear) target markers by the er, pathfinders. As I say it was another daylight, but bombs were being dropped everywhere, and I called the pilot, I had got everything ready, like before, 'I'm not bombing'. Because we'd been debriefed, we'd been briefed to the effect that there was a prisoner of war camp nearby, and I thought, 'hells, if any of our chappies had baled out, and been put into there'. I didn't want our bombs to be killing them, so I called to the pilot, 'I'm not bombing, it might be friendly bombing'. But the navigator called, 'oh, I've got it here on H2S'. So the pilot called to him, 'alright, bomb from your desk', which he could in case I'd gone for a burton he could, he, he had a pair switch there to enable him to get the picture on, on his apparatus, and release the bombs from there, which he did. But we found later that it wasn’t a prisoner of war camp, it was a slave labour camp, which was the same thing, you didn't want to be killing them. Anyhow, we failed to er, break through to hit this, this factory, but, and this probably explains why we did so much blitz bombing after that one, papers released since depict that the war would be going on another four months, Germany would have obliterated London with these rockets, and Oxford, where, which was never bombed, Hitler didn't intend having Oxford bombed, that was going to be the, the, er, German operating headquarters in this country, and they reckon that if the war had gone on for another four months Gerry would have got here with smashing London. There. So. That's why Bomber Harris, I suppose, did try getting the, demoralising the people. But we did such a lot of slaughter toward the end, there's no doubt about it. They, they weren't all military targets. No. And it er, (unclear), but you never forget about it. If you didn't talk about it, it would probably drive you round the bend. Fifty years after the war, my grandson er, Paul, up in Scotland, wrote to me from his school, said they were doing a project on World War Two, would I help him? Wrote back, 'alright Nick, how?'. His other grandpa had died by that time. And er, he sent me a list of questions, which I have somewhere, and among them was one, 'What do you think about killing people?' 'Gosh, Nick is that your question, or is this being asked by a teacher?' …. My answer to that was, 'Nothing. Until much later. Until after your father was born'. His father being my elder son. When I get something on my mind I tend to resort to poetry, I wrote him some poetry, and you've got a copy of it, haven't you? That's why er, that was written, just to enable him to understand.
AM: Understand. I'll copy that, the poem. To go with the tape.
FT: Well, I've got (microphone noises) something on the, on, on the Wellington.
AM: We're just having a look for Frank's poem. (Background noises). Here we are, we've found one, so I'll bring this with the tape. Or a copy of it. I can't see it without my glasses, Frank. (chuckles) I'll read it in a moment. (Pause) Do you want to read it out? For the tape?
FT: Yes. “Fifty years after World War Two my eldest grandson enquired of the part I then played, and What Did I Think About Killing People? Replying to this I recalled in nineteen forty I joined the RAF, not for a laugh, or for fun, but because war had begun. One who dared, I was scared. Up there in the sky, hoped I would not die. Later, in a Lancaster bomber's nose, looking down for the target markers. There! To port, the target's lit. Skipper and engineer see it too, and the aircraft's course is altered by ten degrees. I call, 'open bomb doors and report. Still too far to starboard. Left, left. Left, left'. And again, 'left, left. Keep it steady now. Steady, Steady'. With target on the bomb sight's cross, so, pair switch pressed, bombs all go, there below it's all aglow. When I call, 'close bomb doors', all the crew seems more composed. When navigator directs skipper, 'change course. Compass, three twenty degrees'. Now we're returning to base. Will a fighter give chase? Will there be more flak? All crew hope, maybe pray, we will again see Lincoln Cathedral when night becomes day. No thought, or prayer, for those we've killed, until much later. Only that another operation has been fulfilled. Then, at last, the war is over, and the thankful feeling that life is now a bed of clover, and I am proud to become a father. But, now for 'until much later'. Thoughts return of targets bombed, and wondering how many children, how many mothers did we kill in our participation to eliminate the Nazi ill.” That's what it was. (Pause) Don't. I'll sign this one for you. In (unclear) pen?
AM: Yeah. (pause) So it was much later that you thought about it?
FT: Yes, it was er, um, three or four weeks afterwards, you know, you couldn't, couldn't say much in reply to that, but I must find, I must find the other, see I've got here, one of three. It's (paper rustling), some of the information I've got notes, it's not all out of my log book, as you'll see at the very end of the last one, it's, er, it'll tell you how many aircraft were lost.
AM: Yeah.
FT: But I'll have to turn up the others and let you have a copy...
AM: Yeah, we'll copy all those afterwards
FT: of all three, yeah, yeah.
AM: So the war ended,
FT: War ended, thankfully. And then to find us something to do before we stood down we went across to Italy, er, er, to bring troops back, and the first time that we went over there (slight pause) I, erm, I, I, I navigated so the navigator could have an overview of the place. We went to (pause), we were billeted overnight, well for two or three nights, in, in the first instance, er, just outside of Naples, and on one occasion with two of the crew, I went sightseeing around Garibaldi Square, and went up into the Palace of Naples, and coming down the steps, three ATS girls were walking up, and lo and behold one of these was one that was with me at Sunday School years ago. That's how small the world is. But I'd also met her hitch-hiking between Coventry and Rugby when I was in the Regiment. This Army van pulled up, and give me a lift, and when I got in there was several ATS girls in, and she was one of them there. So for her I brought one or two things that she'd bought to take home to her parents. She lived about half a mile from my home. Yeah. (chuckles) How small is the world?
AM: Small world. What did you do after the war, Frank?
FT: I went back to the old company, where I could get a couple of quid more a month there than anywhere else, and it was, my pay, was less than half what I was getting in the RAF two weeks before. (Laughs) But, that was my experience of recession, but the fact was you'd come out all in one piece, probably fitter than when you went in, and that was a, a great compensation. But it took me about four years to catch up with those that had stayed behind. But they were very helpful, I was helped a lot. When I went back, then eventually they decided they wanted someone to come and develop sales up in the North West, and so I was given the opportunity to so do, which pleased my wife well, because she came from Warrington, and she couldn't believe we were coming back north. She'd moved down to the Midlands.
AM: When had you met your wife, Frank? Did you meet her during the war?
FT: Yes, yes, yes. When, er, when I had to come to Manchester, she and I, we had a mutual friend in Birmingham, and Mary said, 'Oh if you're going to Manchester, you must go across to Warrington and meet Bettie', which I did two weeks before I went to Canada. I wrote to her, as I did to other people I met along the way. And the er, (pause) for female cousins and girls that I knew I brought fully fashioned stockings back for them, with what little money I had. But I, I didn't have a pair to give to Bettie, and so she had nothing, and Bettie was the last one that I met, sort of thing. But, er, she came down to our mutual friend's one weekend, and we met up with her in the, in the, er, Mecca one Saturday evening, dancing, and we, we got along quite well, and the thing is, she said, 'Come up, come up next weekend'. Which I did. Because the first time I went, to her home, she was out. She'd gone to stay with, er, she'd gone to visit her friend from school, who was born, they were both born, in that house. There, that thatched cottage.
AM: Frank's showing me a picture on his his wall of a thatched cottage.
FT: yes, yes. That was the school house at Whinney, a little village just outside of Warrington, and at that time, when my wife was born, it had become split into two, one family lived in one part, and another family lived in the other. And my wife was born on the one side of it. And she'd gone to visit her friend. But my father in law, I would say, thought, 'Here's a likely looking fellow here, I'll get rid of one of them'. So he gets on his bike and goes to her, and she comes back on the bus, and I'm absolutely amazed, this big family, they, there were nine of them there, one was missing, she was in the Land Army, she was, er, that was Audrey, who came next to Bettie, Bettie being the eldest. The eldest of eleven. One, Rowena, died at six months when she caught measles from the triplets (chuckles), yeah, my mother-, my late mother in law had triplets among these eleven children. And in the triplets, the middle one, was Derek, he was the only boy of eleven (chuckles). But they seem to have got it so well organised, at the, at the, I had tea with them and everything was so, so well organised, and at times when it wasn't so at camp, I would refer, I would say, 'it needs the Deans here to get it organised'. 'Who are the Deans?' and then I'd have to go into the story and telling of this amazing family that I'd I'd met in Warrington. (laughs)
AM: Your wife's family.
FT: Yeah.
AM: I think we can't end the interview, Frank, without you telling me about the Imperial War Museum. And the zip wire.
FT: Oh, the zip wire (laughs)
AM: Tell me about the work you do for the Imperial War Museum North.
FT: Yeah, (unclear) I was going to a veterans meeting, and I saw what they were doing, and they had several volunteers with whom I spoke with, and they thoroughly enjoyed going, and so I decided I, I, I would help, because they were still after volunteers, and I go, normally, every Wednesday morning, not every Wednesday, but most Wednesday mornings. Sometimes, on other occasions, when needs be, and I generally work in the, on the ground floor, with the computers, on the computers there. Yes, I find it very good indeed. But (slight pause) a while ago, my church, it was (pause), the church hall roof, it was found, needed to be replaced, and the cost for this was going to be forty thousand. So how are we going to get the money? We started fund raising, and it so happened that at the Imperial War Museum they were having a wire erected from the top, right across the er, Manchester Ship Canal, to the Lowry Theatre. They'd done this two years earlier, and I was on voluntary duty on, at that time, and I was so fascinated by it I said, 'oh, what's the age limit?' 'Oh, there's no age limit. Two years ago we had a fellow who was eighty nine'. And, 'oo, I could do it then?', and he said, 'yes, if you have forty five pounds', which I hadn't. So I said to him, 'well, I'm a volunteer here, could I not do it as publicity for the museum?' 'Oh no, no'. Anyhow, about ten minutes later they came after me and said, 'yes, we've decided that you can do it'. So without any more ado, I just did it. And so I became the oldest, at ninety one, to have done it. And then I thought that this would be an idea for fund raising, so I reported at church that I would do this for a fund raising exercise, and so far I've raised, I think it's over three thousand-
AM: Three thousand pounds
FT: Yes, yes, from doing it again. But I didn't tell people that I'd done it before.
AM: So you've actually done it twice then? When you were ninety one, then again this year.
FT: Yes, yes, you've seen pictures-
AM: I was there, Frank. I watched you come down the wire. I did. And er
FT: I came, after, they wanted to film me actually on the wire, this is before I went on, and they were doing this, and then they'd bring me back in again. I said, 'you should have let me go then. People down there that have come to see will think that I've changed my mind, I'm not going'. (Laughs)
AM: But you did it, and you've raised three thousand pounds. And I do have a picture, which I'll put with the tape.
FT: You, you you've got picture, have you?
AM: I've got pictures, yeah, I think we'll call it quits now, Frank, because you've been talking for an hour, so thank you very much.
FT: What a line-shoot, eh?
AM: Thank you.
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Frank Tolley
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Tolley was born in 1921 in Tipton and left school at fourteen to work as an errand boy for a grocer. He joined the Royal Air Force at nineteen as a ground gunner, and was in at the inception of the Royal Air Force Regiment. After eighteen months he volunteered to become an air gunner, but instead was selected for pilot, navigator and bomb aimer training. After his initial training at Scarborough, he went to Carlisle to fly Tiger Moths, but didn't solo. He went to Canada to train as a bomb aimer, then came back to Moreton in the Marsh for more training before joining 625 Squadron at Kelstern. He describes some bombing operations and deploying Window. He completed 26 operations. After the war he went into sales in the north west, where his wife had come from. At the time of interview he volunteers at the Imperial War Museum North, and has raised money making two zip-wire jumps across the Manchester Ship Canal.
Creator
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Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-02
Contributor
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Peter Adams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal
Format
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01:06:43 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATolleyF150702
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Germany
Great Britain
England--Gloucestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Dresden
625 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
fear
final resting place
ground personnel
H2S
Lancaster
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
perception of bombing war
RAF Kelstern
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
sanitation
Tiger Moth
training
Window
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/207/3343/PBawdenHH1602.1.jpg
df5da1c4c93570824e924665aeffc7c5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/207/3343/ABawdenHH160810.2.mp3
1b440b405014296da1ac20828edaf0e1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bawden, Harvey Hayward
Harvey Hayward Bawden
Harvey H Bawden
Harvey Bawden
H H Bawden
H Bawden
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Warrant Officer Harvey Hayward Bawden (419835 Royal Australian Air Force). Harvey Bawden volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force and after training in the United States, flew operations with 153 Squadron from RAF Scampton and 150 Squadron from RAF Hemswell as a mid-upper gunner. He was shot down and became a prisoner of war on his 29th operation.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Bawden, HH
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JB: It's the 10th of August 2016, and the interview, my interviewee is Harvey Bawden from xxxxxx, Bendigo, Victoria. Harvey's squadron was 150, rank of warrant officer, and his crew position was mid upper, er, upper mid gunner. Um, so, the date you enlisted, and where did you enlist?
HB: I enlisted in Bendigo in 1942.
JB: And from the home town? Your home town?
HB: Er, from the hill where I lived. I came from the Pyramid Hill [?] of Bendigo to enlist, and then of course I had to go to Melbourne for induction and all those things.
JB: And you went, what school did you go to?
HB: I went to the Bendigo Technical College.
JB: And as a civilian, your job? You were a farmer.
HB: I was a wool grower, yes.
JB: What made you volunteer for Bomber Command? [pause] I suppose firstly, what made you volunteer in the war?
HB: Oh well, it wasn't a big decision to make, my father had been a serviceman in the First World War, as a light horseman. Er, stories of service life had been part of my growing up, I suppose, but I, when I became eighteen of age I automatically enlisted, er, I enlisted in aircrew because I was interested in flight [pause] and [pause], yes, I, I was looking forward to the time when I was able to enlist.
JB: Were you aware of the high casualty rates?
HB: Well, er, war stories were not new to me. I knew a little bit about the war, but also there was war all around us, and it was an inevitability that able-bodied people would be involved, and, no, I didn't give it a great amount of consideration, I must confess, no.
JB: What about your family? I mean how did they feel about it? Your mum.
HB: Oh well, I don't suppose they were happy to see me enlist, but as I said before, my father was an ex-serviceman, and I got plenty of encouragement from the family, yes.
JB: So, where did you, where did you train, once you'd enlisted?
HB: Ah well, very briefly, oh first I went to Summers, which was what they called initial training school, where we were given a lot of theory and [pause] grounding in aircrew things, but it was really assessing, I think, the young people, to see if they could cram a lot of subjects in a very short time, and had the ability to go on quickly. I can remember particularly at Summers there were some sheds were used for classrooms, and we didn't walk between those sheds, we had to, we had to, actually go at the double, because they were short of time, and we were very young and fit. But after spending the time at Summers initial training school, if we passed the course we were, we were [pause], we were assigned to different channels of aircrew training. We all, of course, would like to have been made pilot, young pilots, and I was very fortunate that I was categorised for pilot training, and I was sent then to initial, er, to elementary flying training school at the Nowra in Victoria, where we were trained to fly Tiger Moths. And it was a wonderful period of my life, I had an interesting and capable instructor, and we enjoyed very much the period of flying, from the time of first solo until we were practising aerobatics and doing solo cross countries, it was a very exhilarating period of a young person's life. At the end of that course we were again categorised for singles or multis, which meant going on to be a fighter pilot if you went on singles, or bomber pilot if you were multis. And again I obtained what I wanted to have, and that was fighter pilot training on singles, and I was sent then to Uranquinty in New South Wales, flying on Wirraways, and sadly during that course, and when I felt quite capable and comfortable with the course, nine of us were taken off the course and told that we were to be re-mustered to bomber crews, and of course this was a most disturbing and, er, disappointing thing to happen. However, we, we were sent to Bradfield Park in New South Wales, and given a choice of what we would like to do in bomber crews. And I chose to be a gunner. And I was sent to Sale and I did a gunneries course, and very quickly I was sent to England, er, via America, to join in Bomber Command, which was the ultimate, I imagine, at the time. We had a very uncomfortable trip to England, it was wartime of course, and we travelled from Brisbane to San Francisco in the United States of America, in a liberty ship, and they were terrible things. They were the first all-welded boats, made during the war for transport purposes. They weren't very large and they were certainly very uncomfortable. But after about three weeks we, one morning, saw, coming through the mist, er, one of the American airships they had patrolling their coastline, and coming through the fog we came into the, into the port of San Francisco. And after a bit of leave in San Francisco, we were put on [unclear], on a very comfortable Pullman train, and we travelled right across the States by train to New York. It took about a week, and that was a very interesting journey. And we had a short period of leave in New York whilst-
JB: S- sorry Harvey, there's a lovely story about the Afro-American on the train. I'd really like, 'cause it says a lot about the Aussies, so-
HB: Ah, well, I've just got to break into that somehow. Yes, well, on this train we, they were very comfortable old train carriages, they were Pullman carriages, they were sleepers, and, er, we had an African-American person in each carriage, looking after us. And some of us spent most of the day on a observation carriage type thing, talking to this, er, old gentleman who was our, looking after us. He was very, very interesting, he'd been on the route for a long time, and he could give us a lot of interesting information on the country we were passing through, and the cities we came in to. And, er, quite an old gentleman. At the end of our journey to New York we took up a collection, and gave to him in appreciation for his looking after us so well on the trip. And the old chap became quite emotional, and he said he'd been hauling American troops for years on the trains, but he'd never ever received the respect and attention that he had with the Australians, and he also said that the money we had given him would be sufficient to buy his son, who was about to go to a university, a new overcoat, and that was a very pleasant thing [unclear] to our trip across the States. In New York we had some leave whilst we awaited the arrival of the Queen Elizabeth, who was, of course she was doing a regular trip between America and Britain on, [pause], on eh as a troop ship. Eventually she arrived, and we were five hundred Australian aircrew, all Australians, and we didn't make much difference to the, the seventeen thousand, I think it was, on board the Queen Elizabeth. But it was a, after our experience on the liberty ship, it was a very luxurious journey on board the Queen Elizabeth. We aircrew fellas, I think we had to share, er, we had cabins, but only cut down slightly on normal accommodation. The Queen Elizabeth wasn't escorted, she was too fast to travel in convoy, she travelled on a zigzag course relying on speed and all the electronics and [pause] she had on board. We, we eventually pulled into the, the, into Glasgow, the port of Glasgow. The Queen Elizabeth never came right into port, she remained out in the straits and we came off by lighters, this was so she could be quickly manoeuvred about in emergencies from bombing. In Glasgow we [pause]
JB: -at all. As good as gold.
HB: We boarded a troop train, in Glasgow, and came down, all the way down through, er, through Britain, to Brighton, which was our destination, of course, and all the aircrew arrivals were billeted in one of two major hotels in Brighton. Er, quite a luxurious arrival actually. And we were very pleased to get to Brighton, we were all very weary after all our travel. But at Brighton which was a pool, and a place where all aircrew were sorted into groups suitable for training, we were given disembarkation leave. There was a great feeling of haste there about everything. This disembarkation leave was very, very brief, and we were very quickly put on course for operational training courses, and we could see the reason this was about, there were many losses, heavy losses in Bomber Command, and the war was at a very positive time, but after a very brief leave in London we were sent on operational, to operational training units, where we crewed up, and we were given a welcome by the commanding officer at our training station, and told that we would be given two or three days to crew-0p by choice [coughs]. The British had learned, I think from experience, that you don't allocate bomber crews, you allow them to crew-up as crews themselves. A bomber crew had to be compatible [coughs], and we crewed up.
JB: How did that actually, did you just walk round and meet each other, or-?
HB: Yeah, we did. We just talked around the bar, and chatted in the mess, and in real life, I think, you usually find that like-minded people do group together, and sort themselves out a little. But in our case, the first man I saw there, met, was my old friend Kevin Key, who I'd known at initial training school at Summers in Melbourne, I knew no one else, nor did he know anyone else, but we were delighted to meet, and we said well, whatever happened, we'll be on the same crew, and from there we just gradually melted into er, different groups, and, er, Jim Gillies was the next one that we met. We decided that we'd be a fairly good combination, and we ended up with our six members, crew members, all Australians. We crewed up only with six men for a seven-man crew because in England the flight engineers were all English, and they allocated. But as a crew we then began our training at -. And it was a very busy time, of course, we got into the elementary flying programmes, and finally we moved onto flying in Wellington bombers, training. The Wellington had been a front-line bomber at the beginning of the war, it was a twin-engined, quite serviceable, old aircraft. And it was still being used a little bit in coastal patrols and such things, but its major usage was in training bomber crews, and it was a twin-engine aircraft. And so we did quite a lot of flying in Wellingtons, and then we migrated to Halifaxes, which was a four-engined bomber, of course, and quite a big step for the pilots, and the crews. And after a course in Halifaxes we moved onto Lancasters, and the Lancaster, of course, was the outstanding heavy bomber of World War Two. It was said that, yes, it was the supreme heavy bomber. Er, it carried a crew of seven. It carried a much heavier bomb load than the American Flying Fortress. We had a crew only of seven, where the American Flying Fortress had a crew of eleven. It was an exciting aircraft. They could take enormous punishment in service. But anyway, we did a course on Lancasters, cross countries, and under all sorts of conditions and situations, until the time came that we were proficient, and we were allocated to a squadron. And we were fortunate we felt, we were sent to 153 Squadron at Scampton, which was a very famous squadron, not far out of Lincoln city. It had become famous in the fact that the Dambuster crews trained there, in fact they took off for the bomb raids from Scampton. It was the squadron where Guy Gibson did his flying. And it was a very interesting place, and a very comfortable billet, and we were very happy to go there. And we flew our first operation from there, and in fact we flew four operations from Scampton. And then we were told that we were being posted to 150 Squadron at Hemswell. Hemswell was a new squadron at a new wartime 'drome. A little bit further away from Lincoln. And we were a bit sad, of course, leaving the comforting billets that we'd become used to at Scampton, but we soon got used to 150 Squadron at Hemswell. The amenities weren't quite as comfortable, perhaps, but we joined in Hemswell a mixed body of young flyers. We were the only full Australian crew flying there. There were odd Australians in mixed crews, but there were Canadians, there were some Canadians, incidentally the Canadians and the Australians seemed to have a great rapport, they seemed to fall into step very easily. Our closest companions were Canadians, but there were British, and there were Canadians, and there were some, a few, New Zealanders. There were two squadrons at Hemswell, 170 Squadron and 150 Squadron. We [pause] we settled, we settled into flight from Hemswell, it was some distance back into Lincoln, of course, but any time we had free we drove back in to Lincoln for our relaxation. Hemswell was surrounded by farming land, very attractive farming land, but there was no township, or anything of that nature, there. From then on it was a matter of routine, the bombing missions all over Germany. Intermittently we were given leave, they were, the Air Force was, very generous, I believe, in its allocation of leave to aircrews, and we, we used to get well away from London and relax in those periods when we were given leave. We would go north to Scotland, or into the Lakes District in England, and generally enjoy and relax very well. But it was always sad, we found, coming back to the squadron after having been on leave because inevitably we found vacant places. And you even felt a little bit guilty [pause] that you'd been away while these boys had gone.
JB: Do you want me to stop it a minute?
HB: [Coughs]
JB: Sorry mate.
HB: That's alright.
JB: Um, yeah, let’s stop it and think. [Rustles and beep]. And away you go.
HB: When we arrived at the squadron, our crew was assigned to a brand new Lancaster. Her code number was PB 853 PB, and she was affectionately known as P-Peter. The ground crew painted a huge bee dressed in Australian battledress, and sitting astride a bomb, on the side of the fuselage. During the period we flew her, all of her engines were replaced, and many of her panels were patched due to flak damage. When flying on operations we carried escape aids to help if we had to bail out in neutral countryside with a chance of escape to the neutral country. It was a flat box, plastic box [pause] we wore inside our battledress, and contained a beautiful silk map of Europe, some German money, some phrases cards, in several languages, and some vitamin pills, for-, and also some pills for purifying water, a razor, and many little things likely to be useful. Each member of a bomber crew carried a secret compass. There were several kinds of these, my little compass was in the base of a, of a collar stud. When I became a prisoner of the Germans I was interrogated twice, once by the Luftwaffe, and once by civilians. They removed everything I had, but did not find my little compass, and I still have it. The Royal Air Force flew mostly at night. Our crew flew twenty nine operations before we were shot down. Twenty four of them were at night, and five were in daylight. Because we usually flew at night, high altitude we had [sneezes], we had to wear oxygen masks, and electric inner suits for the gunners, because in those days we did not have pressurised aircraft, and it was very cold. Flying could be up to ten hours, depending on the location of the target. We were briefed for our twenty ninth operation one morning to bomb synthetic oil refineries at Harpennig, near Dortmund in the Ruhr. The Ruhr is the industrial centre of Germany where most of the heavy steel industry is, is located, including the mighty Krupps armament works. It was known to bomber crews as Happy Valley, we had been to the Ruhr cities a number of times, and had always found them heavily defended. At four o’clock in the afternoon we were over the city, and the oil refineries underneath us. After seeing the target map on the brief, briefing room wall that morning, I believed that without being complacent we were quietly optimistic that we would complete our tour of thirty operations. There was only one more to go after this. We had survived twenty eight arduous operations, all of them on German targets. We were the senior crew on the squadron, with a reputation for reliability and efficiency. At four o’clock in the afternoon we were indeed over the city, flying at eighteen thousand feet. We were in the midst of a heavy anti-aircraft barrage, with flak bursting from fifteen thousand to twenty thousand feet. The target was clearly visible, not only from the target indicators, but from the smoke of exploding bombs. As we turned into our bombing run there was a target, there was a target, when we [long pause]. You right?
JB: Yeah!
HB: As we turned into our bombing run there was a great explosion, and the aircraft began to shudder violently. Flak bursting under us had put two of our engines on fire. We were out of control and going into a steep descent. When the order was given to abandon the aircraft the last words we heard from Phil were, 'I can't hold her any more'. Jim Gillies and I believe that Jim Griffin was killed by the flak. His body was found, thrown clear of the aircraft, in the woods some kilometres from the target area. There was no panic, and six of the seven of us were able to bail out. I was the last to leave. My turret hydraulics were supplied from one of the engines that was on fire, and it had stopped with the guns on the beam. With no hydraulics I had to manually wind the turret to the fore and aft position to get out of it. This operation took several seconds. As I disconnected my oxygen and intercom lead the aircraft began to lurch violently from side to side. I was having great difficulty leaving the turret, and suddenly found myself on the floor of the fuselage below. I was able to clip my parachute onto my harness before I realised that my left femur was broken up near the hip. I crawled upwards to the door and rolled out, counted to three, and pulled my rip cord. There was a sudden jolt and I found myself suspended at about sixteen thousand feet. My first reaction was of relief. The enormity of the situation took a moment to sink in. [Pause.] There were aircraft passing high above me with flak bursting under them, and I began to feel an incredible sense of isolation and loneliness as I watched those Lancasters disappearing into the distance, going home to England. As I descended in the parachute I had time to think of many things. I thought about the dreaded telegram my father would receive from the Air Ministry, advising them that we were missing. I remember the, I remember the RAF issue Smith and Wesson revolver I had underneath my Mae West. I realised it would be a liability in the situation that I was about to face, and I pulled it out and let it drop. The last few hundred feet arrived too soon. I could see I was drifting over a building [pause] and as I landed, further down under the cabbages I could see people coming. They were armed with shovels and garden tools. They hesitated for a moment, and then rushed over to me, and my flying boots were pulled off. Women were squabbling over my parachute silk, and others were trying to remove my harness in order to have my flying clothes. I could not move because they were standing on my hands, stretched above my head. I couldn’t see clearly because mud was running into my eyes. I was not having a very good time when an old soldier in uniform with a sub-machine gun moved through the crowd. He cocked his weapon, and they fell back. He then stood over me, undoubtedly saving my life. Another armed old soldier then arrived, pushing a large wheelbarrow with two wheels on the front. These soldiers were Volkssturm, or Home Guard. The first old fellow loaded me onto this conveyance, and then with the first of them walking in front with his weapon, clearing a pathway, the other pushed me over the cobblestones, and I was cursed and spat upon by the justifiably irate citizens as we approached a tin building which appeared to be a military barracks. I was deposited upon a concrete floor within this building, and as they left me I thanked these two old soldiers. They had saved my life, though I never saw them again.
JB: No. Just my wife [pause]. No, you're all right. Keep, still going. [Pause.]
HB: Lying on my back, with nothing under my head, I tried not to make the slightest movement because the tortured thigh was swelling rapidly, no doubt due to having been twisted about so much during the rough handling I had received in the vegetable field. Sometime during the evening I was interrogated by some military people, with a Luftwaffe officer in charge. He had an RAAF, rather, an RAF aircrew identification card with him, and he showed me those many identification cards, from obviously RAF personnel who had been shot down in the region [pause]. He, he went through these with me, and I showed no recognition, even though I saw Jim Gillies, our bomb aimer, I saw his card come up. Throughout the night [pause] a light in the ceiling above my head was something to focus on, and in a sense it gave me some company. I was very cold, and my leg was swollen, swelling enormously, and in the morning my trouser leg was stretched to the limit. At this time a soldier came in to me with a plate of porridge, before depositing it on the concrete beside me he put it to his mouth drinking the liquid from it [pause]. Later in the morning a rough splint was strapped over my leg. I was put on a stretcher and moved to a small prison cell. I had not had time to become fully acquainted with this [telephone rings] -
JB: - you go.
HB: And later in the morning a rough splint was strapped over my leg, and I was put on a stretcher and moved into a small prison cell. I had not had time to become fully acquainted with this superior accommodation, when the door opened, and guards escorting Jim Gillies arrived. We chose not to recognise each other, but I am sure that our body language would have indicated the relief we felt in knowing that the other was alive. Jim was wearing a paper bandage around his head, testimony of his inhospitable reception, er, on landing. The following morning Jim and I were taken to an open truck. There was no seating for a group of female soldiers and the two armed guards escorting us. We travelled through Dortmund into the countryside where we stopped to pick up the body of an RAF fellow from a field. His parachute had not opened, and he was probably blown out of an exploding aircraft. This incident caused Jim and me to be a little uneasy. The truck had stopped at the side of the road, and two, the two guards guarding us jumped out, ordering Jim to follow. He was then given a stretcher to carry, and the three of them marched out across a field, and from my position on the floor I soon lost sight of them. However, I heard no gunshot, and was relieved soon, later, to see them return with Jim and one of the guards carrying the stretcher. And as we continued our journey, Jim, who was very tired, sat on the body after saying, 'I'm sure he wouldn't mind'. We were then able to confer freely together. The road was in very poor condition, and I was relieved when we arrived at a Luftwaffe fighter base where Jim Gillies was placed in cells with a number of Canadian and American POWs. The following day Jim Gillies and the other airmen was moved by train and truck through Germany ending up at Fallingbostel POW camp. After a night in a cell alone, I was taken some distance to a place called Kirchlinde, a large town. The hospital was on three levels, and I was placed on the top storey. Two American soldiers, and a blind English soldier, and I, were the only English-speaking prisoners. The few orderlies were French, and the main function of the establishment seemed to be the patching up of injured Russian prisoners of war from the work parties that we could see filling in bomb craters and clearing roads. After so much time without any medical attention whatsoever I was given some surgery at this place. Since breaking my femur the muscles of my leg had contracted and the broken ends of the bones were overlapping, and my leg was shortened and not very straight. The doctor put on [unclear] my shin bone and attempted some traction, but after so much delay it was futile. It turned out that we were being held in what was to become known as the Ruhr Pocket, where the German, where a German army refused to surrender. There were, we were under constant attack from the RAF bombing throughout the region at night, and a tactical air force in daytime. The Germans had established an anti-aircraft battery quite close to the factory, and whenever the air raid siren began to moan, we would brace ourselves for the sound of the guns as they sent of a barrage of flak. Inevitably, eventually it happened, and the second floor, storey, was also replaced, er reduced to rubble and by the cannon fire. Again I was moved downstairs into what still remained of the building. By this time I was the only prisoner still confined to a bed. I remember an SS soldier coming into the ward, where I remained alone. He had a Luger in his hand, and I was given the strong impression that he would have liked to use it. I was after all a considerable inconvenience. I was relieved when he left after making his inspection. By this time most of the Russians had disappeared, street fighting had been going on around for some time, and eventually the first floor [pause] became shattered. And after a period the whole of the building was untenable, and we were moved down to the cellars underneath. I lost sign, I lost sight of the English soldier, the blind English soldier, and I think he could not have survived. I was lying on a concrete floor with a very, with a very young soldier, German soldier on my left. He was from a signal unit and had been wounded in the street fighting. He spoke very good English and we began to talk. He told me about his work in the army and said that he'd often heard English pilots on his listening set, talking and swearing at each other. He quoted 'tally-ho' [pause]. He, he spoke very good English, and his name was Helmut Liever, and he'd grown up in the confines of Hitler Youth Movement, where every aspect of life was regimented. He told me that the German people were very afraid of Royal Air Force bombing, especially at night. He said that he had received, he told me that he had relatives who had survived the classic raid on Dresden. He went on to describe in detail the sequences of the operation. I did not tell him I had seen it all from twenty thousand feet. In contract, in contrast to Helmut Liever on my right there was a German soldier who had a dagger that, that he pulled out several times in a threatening manner. Fortunately he was out of reach. Eventually the two Americans and I experienced a dramatic change in our situation. Four heavily-armed American soldiers burst into our cellar at about midday. They expected to find more than the three of us. It was a wonderful reunion for the two Americans. When they found out that I was an Australian airman they could not have been more supportive. They told us, however, that we couldn't be taken away for some time, as there was street fighting going on outside. Before leaving they left some cigarettes and a long black bottle of very old wine, and asked if, they came to ask if there was anything they could do for me. And I said, 'well, that old German with the dagger is annoying me, get that dagger', which they did, and I still have it with me. Early in the evening a jeep arrived for us. I was strapped across the bonnet on a stretcher. A padre sat beside me, steadying me on the, and holding a rifle with a Red Cross flag tied to the barrel. It was a rough ride, dodging bomb craters and wrecked vehicles and fallen cables. Before leaving the cellar, I quietly passed some cigarettes to Helmut Liever. We travelled through what seemed a considerable distance until we left the city and arrived at an American army field hospital. It was surrounded by wheat fields, and it was a mobile unit under canvas. I was something of a curiosity with the nursing staff. Most of them were female and knew very little about Australia. They could not be enough, do enough for me, and were very kind. I was told my femur should be re-broken and reset in England. They enveloped my knee in plaster for the trip to come home. Er, could you switch it off for a minute?
LB: Yeah.
HB: I just [unclear] it's getting pretty dreary now, what would like-
LB: I think just talk about the crew, what about when-
HB: Ah, yes.
LB: Um, hang on, hang on, hang on. Er pause, we can do that one [noise]. Um, Harvey, what can you tell me about your crew, or your team?
HB: Er, I would do that with great pleasure, er, in recollections of our team, and our [coughs], Philip Henry Morris was an accomplished pilot, trained in Canada, and we both looked forward to a life in farming after the war. In September 1944 we decided to buy a car. We found one that suited us, a Riley Nine, in Gainsborough. It was a very, in very good condition except that the tyres were very bad, and were difficult to attain. But I drove it back to the station, and whenever we had a day off, I proceeded to teach Phil, Phil to drive. It was an amazing fact that this man who had flown three types of heavy bombers, and many light aircraft, had never learned to drive a motor car. [Pause.] After a great deal of changing and slipping and gear grinding, we were able to go back to Gainsborough and secure his licence. When we arrived back to 150 Squadron at Hemswell, our ground crew took over the maintenance of the car. For special occasions we would let them have it out for a night. In a miraculous manner the worn and worn-out tyres that we couldn't replace, were replaced with new ones, and whenever we drove out of the station, there would be petrol in the tank. John Clement Jay Davis, the flight engineer, was English, of course, er, was assigned to us after OTU, and flew with us in training, and [pause] Jo Davis was a young Londoner, who grew up in Surbiton. He bonded with us very quickly. He was capable, courageous, and always cheerful. He was delighted to be part of an Australian crew, and often said that he would be emigrating to Australia after the war. One of his sayings after a pint or two in the sergeants’ mess was, 'we are not here today, and gone tomorrow, we are here today, and gone tonight'. Kevin Anthony Key came from Melbourne. He and I were old friends from Initial Training School at Summers, and were delighted to come together on Operational Training Unit at Lichfield. He was a [pause] he was an inveterate gambler, and a very successful gambler. I remember one, him one evening pushing a large Royal Enfield motor bike back to the billet, that he'd just won from Canadians, playing cards [pause]. He was an excellent navigator, and he kept us on track during all those black nights over Germany. Robert Lockyear Masters was a schoolteacher prior to enlistment as a wireless operator in Australia. He grew up in Tumut in New South Wales, and shared our interests in the appearance and style of a little old pubs and churches we found whenever we were on leave, in England. A stained glass window in the Tumut Anglican church commemorates his life and service to his country. James Noel Griffin, our rear gunner, was a Queenslander from Brisbane. Jim was more of a solo person when going on leave. A very handsome young airman, he seemed to have the ability to attract the girl, a girl at every [unclear] awaiting leave. James Henry Gillies, our bomb aimer, was a large amiable young man who had played rugby union after leaving school. He had trained as a bomb aimer in Canada. As the two surviving members of our crew of seven, Jim and I shared some extreme experiences, and after all these years we remained very close bond. He was, he was a retired dentist, living in Sydney with his wife Bettina, not far from numerous adoring grandchildren. Our ground crew were very important to us. The ground crew worked around the clock, often under the stress of extreme cold, to keep the aircraft flying. They were the engine mechanics, who served our engines. They were the electricians, who looked after our electrical systems. They were the armourers who loaded our bomb bays, and checked our turrets and machine guns. They were the WAAF drivers, who met us when we landed, day or night to take us to headquarters. All these people were a part of our team. They were always cheerful, and they would do anything for us. The aircrew, I will repeat their names: Phil Morris, pilot, from Sydney, New South Wales; Kevin Key, navigator, from Melbourne, Victoria; Joe Davis, flight engineer, from London, United Kingdom; Bob Masters, wireless operator, from Tumut, New South Wales; Jim Gillies, bomb aimer, from Sydney, New South Wales; Harvey Bawden, mid upper gunner, from Pyramid Hill, Victoria; Jim Griffin, rear gunner, from Brisbane, Queensland. Phil Morris, Kevin Key, John Davis, Bob Masters and Jim Griffin are buried in a war cemetery in the Reichswald Forest, near Kleve in Germany. A stone monument at the entrance to this cemetery carries this inscription 'The land on which this cemetery stands is the gift of the German people, who are [pause] for the perpetual resting place for the sailors, soldiers and airmen who are honoured here'. Harvey Bawden, Bendigo.
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ABawdenHH160810
Title
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Interview with Harvey Hayward Bawden
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:05:55 audio recording
Creator
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John Bowden
Date
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2016-08-10
Description
An account of the resource
Harvey Bawden, from Bendigo, Victoria, Australia, volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force in 1942 at the age of eighteen. After initial training school and assessment as an air gunner, he was shipped to England via the United States. After crewing up and training on heavy bombers, his first posting was to 153 Squadron at RAF Scampton, from where he flew four operations. He was then posted to 150 Squadron at RAF Hemswell. On their 29th operation, they were hit by flak. Bawden’s leg was broken before he bailed out, and he describes the experience of bailing out, interrogation and treatment in a military hospital in some detail. Only he and one other crew member survived. He was rescued by advancing American forces clearing the Ruhr Pocket. Bawden pays tribute to his fellow crew members, buried in the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, and the ground crew who supported them.
Contributor
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Peter Adams
Mal Prissick
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Victoria--Bendigo
California--San Francisco
United States
Victoria
California
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
150 Squadron
153 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
final resting place
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Lancaster
mechanics engine
memorial
nose art
prisoner of war
RAF Hemswell
RAF Scampton
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/195/3328/AAllenRM160809.2.mp3
0e0b76b16f6cef1602bcaf97be83a19b
Dublin Core
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Title
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Allen, Richard Murray
Richard Allen
Richard Murray Allen
R Allen
Richard M Allen
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Richard Murray Allen (b. 1925, 435362 Royal Australian Air Force).
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-09
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Allen, RM
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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DG: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre; my name is Donald Gould, and I'm interviewing Richard Allen at his home in Pymble, a suburb of Sydney in New Souith Wales, Australia. How old are you, Richard?
RA: Ninety one.
DG: And where were you born?
RA: In Brisbane in Queensland (pause).
DG: Where did you go to school?
RA: Well, actually I went to primary school in Mount Iza because my father went there during the depression, he was an engineer in the power house there. We spent eight years there. I did my primary schooling there, and I did my secondary schooling, two years of it in those days, which would be the equivelent of about year ten now, I did that at the State Commercial High School in Brisbane.
DG: And er, Mount Isa's a mining town, isn't it?
RA: That's correct.
DG: What was your father doing there?
RA: He was an engineer in the power house.
DG: Oh, I'm sorry, yeah (chuckles). When war broke out can you remember where you were, what you were doing, how old you were?
RA: Yes, I was fourteen. Nineteen thirty nine it was, and I was still at school.
DG: And when you were at, when you were at school did you have any thought that you might end up in the war?
RA: Yes. I joined the Air Training Corps as soon as it was formed. From memory that would have been about nineteen forty one, and I joined the Air Training Corps, and we were given, apart from marching and drilling, and all that sort of thing, we were given certain instructions in morse code, sending and receiving of course, and meteor-, meteorological education, and other things relative to the Air Force. And I was in the Air Training Corps until April nineteen forty three, and on the tenth of April, which is my birthday, I er was actually accepted by the Air Force and ten days later I was in camp at the initial training school.
DG: Now you left, you finished school in forty three?
RA: No, I finished school actually in nineteen thirty nine.
DG: Oh, I beg your pardon. Oh you, oh you had finished then?
RA: Oh yes.
DG: Oh I see. Right, right. Okay then.
RA: I finished school at fourteen, which was a bit young in those days. Most kids would have finished high school at fifteen or sixteen, but I'd had primary school, because it was a small country town I'd done two years in one, which meant I could finish school a bit younger than most people. So, I joined the Air Training Corps which was formed during the war, about nineteen forty one. Because I always wanted to get into the Air Force rather than the Army, and I knew that when I turned eighteen I would be put into either the Air Force or the Army because there was conscription for home service, but I thought I might as well volunteer and go wherever they told me to go.
DG: Why the Air Force and not the Army?
RA: Oh, I suppose because (chuckles) it appealed to me more. I can't think of any other reason.
DG: No? And did you erm, when you, when you then, when you then joined the er, the Air Force did you have any, any idea as to what you, what you wanted to do?
RA: Oh yes. Everybody wanted to be a pilot (both laugh). But on initial training course there were about a hundred and eighty on the course. Courses were going in about once a month in those days, and there were about a hunudred and eighty of us. I think there were about ten pilots and about, picked from the course, and about er perhaps ten or fifteen navigators, and the rest, the rest were, were appointed as wireless air gunners for further training. Well wireless was easy to me because I could send and receive, er twenty five, thirty words a minute because of my training in the Air Training Corps. Ah. So the wireless course, which was six months, was pretty easy, actually. The gunnery course only lasted a month, then our training was completed in Victoria, and within a month we were on a troop ship to England.
DG: So what place you, you, was all your training in Victoria?
RA: No. The initial training and the wireless training, which was a total of, initial training was one month, wireless course about six months, that was all done in Queensland. The wireless course, the initial training course, my pardon, was at Kingeroy, a country town in Queensland, and Merriburra in Queensland was the wireless course, and then in Victoria was the gunnery course, which was at West Sale. There was an Air Force station at East Sale, that's why I distinguish one from the other.
DG: So, you were then in the Air Force and receiving this training. Did you have any idea where you might end up? Did you know you might go to Europe, or-
RA: Oh yes, almost certainly, almost certainly. Actually, I was selected as a navigator on the initial training course, and then the next day they sent for me and said, 'look, I'm sorry, you were selected as a navigator but we find that you can't go overseas until you're nineteen. That's against the law. So you're going to have to be a wireless operator.' So, I was a bit peeved by that, but, you know, you have to accept your fate from these people.
DG: Yes. And so, when, when did you-
RA: Actually, I got to England before I was nineteen. I reached England in April, I beg your pardon, in March nineteen forty four, before I was nineteen. It didn't seem to matter then.
DG: No. So, you went from Victoria. Where did you go from -
RA: I went on leave for a few weeks, and then got on the troop ship. I came on leave back to Bradfield Park, Sydney, which you'd know well, and we were there for about three days.
DG: Right.
RA: And then on to the troop ship.
DG: And where did you, where did you, where did you disembark?
RA: In England?
DG: Are you- You didn't go, you didn't have training in Canada?
RA: No.
DG: No?
RA: No navigators -
DG: Ah, of course yes, yes. That's right. Yes. (DG talking across RA throughout this exchange)
RA: Navigators went there, and I think the odd pilot, but mostly the navigators. I guess because it was pretty flat.
DG: And what, and what places did you do further training in the UK?
RA: Well, when I got to UK I was given a staff job, at a Pilot's Advanced Flying Unit, up in the Cotswolds, a place called erm, Windrush, and our job up there was to fly at night time with pilots who were converting from single engined to multi engined aircraft. They were actually converting on Oxfords, which weren't a very pleasant aircraft, but we used to fly with the trainee pilots at night time, so if they got lost we could get them a bearing on the wireless to get them back to, to Windrush. I was there for a couple of months and back to Brighton, which was the RAAF holding unit, and then I was posted to operational training at a place called Kinloss in Scotland, and er, just near Fin- which was the aeordrome, just near Findhorne Bay, I believe there's a permanent base there now, and from there we went to Bottesford for operational training, and converting from, from Wellingtons which we'd flown in at operational training, and er (pause) we then went to heavy conversion unit at Bottesford. Perhaps that's not what I said originally, but it was a heavy conversion unit where we converted onto Lancasters, and then we went to, we were there I guess for about a month, maybe a bit more, then over to 101 Squadron, Ludford Magna.
DG: When you arrived -, and what er, you were a wireless operator, what rank were you at that stage?
RA: I landed in England as a Sergeant, and I, after six months you were automatically promoted to Flight Sergeant, and after tweve months automatically promoted to Warrant Officer, unless you'd kicked a Squadron Commander in the shins, or something. (pause)
DG: And er, 101, and that was at Ludford Magna?
RA: That's correct.
DG: And what type of aircraft were you flying there?
RA: Lancasters
DG: Can you tell me just a little bit about your dialy life at the base? What, what did you do?
RA: Not a lot. I'm blowed if I know. I often think about that. (DG laughs) I don't think we did much at all. Unless the, the, the unit was shut down because there was going to be an operation on, and the mess was closed twelve hours before that, I believe it was twelve hours, I think we used to hang about the hut, or talk, or play cards. Occassionally, if we weren't wanted, we'd go into Louth, er, for a few drinks. But, I can't remember what we did normally, other than that.
DG: The rest of your crew, were they, er what nationalities were they?
RA: An English captain, English engineer, I had an Australian navigator, me wireless operator, a Canadian bomb aimer, and two Scottish gunners, mid upper and rear.
DG: I believe that Ludford Magna wasn't, the airfield, wasn't very well drained.
RA: I don't remember, the strip itself was bitumen, I know that, but off the- I think it was commonly called Mudford Magna. Mudford Magna, because it was pretty sloppy, I clearly remember that.
DG: What sort of problems did that cause?
RA: The same problems as slopping about in muddy circumstances normally.
DG: And I understand that there was a fog dispersal system that was initiated there, or trialed.
RA: Yeah. They were still testing it. After May the eighth when the war was finished in Europe, I recall that aircrew was called upon, I think more than one day, to do circuits and bumps and testing this FIDO thing, Fog Intesnsive Dispersal Of, um FIDO, and it was a system where there were two pipelines, one on each side of the runway, and at intervals, at least, the pipelines had oil in them, I presume, wouldn't have been petrol, would have been oil, and they were lit, and the idea was so that if there was a fog the heat would disperse the fog. But I remember that on a couple of foggy days we were given the task of trying this thing, or testing it, or anyway, it hasn't, it couldn't have been a great success because I don't remember ever hearing of it being used anywhere else.
DG: So how, there were lines along the side of the airfield.
RA: Two pipes along the strip.
DG: And, obviously outlets for the oil. How did, how was that lit?
RA: No idea. No idea, I was concerned with, you know, getting set up to do my part on the aircraft while somebody else did that. Some of the ground staff, no doubt, were handling that while we did what we had to do.
DG: If it was a day where you were going to fly a mission, presumably that night, what was that day like, what, what was your routine then?
RA: Well, I can't clearly remember then because, you know, I only did, according to the log book, which is long since list because I, we've moved, according to my log book I only officially did one operation.
DG: Ah, right.
RA: And, er although there was some discussion about that, they wouldn't let us count a couple which we did (pause) which the Flight Commander or Squadron Leader said, no, they didn't count, but anyway. So I have very little memory of what we did, what the day was like. I remember that we had to be at the briefing at a certain time, I remember that we had to pick up our parachutes, I remember being driven out to the aircraft, I remember that we would have been er, you know, I remember putting on my harness, the parachute harness, I can remember putting on my Mae West, and I can remember standing up when the officer came in to brief us, and lots of funny little things, but er, what I clearly remember though on coming back, that was the important, well perhaps before, the important part for me was that we got a little, a ration to take with us on the aircraft for when we were flying, so we had something to nibble, you know, something to eat, whether it was a sandwich, or also Mars bar, and of course I'd never seen a Mars bar, because we didn't have Mars bars in Australia pre-war, that I ever saw, and as a kid I knew a lot about lollies, and so the Mars bar became very important, and that was where I was introduced to them.
DG: Can you remember what the target was?
RA: Yeah, Rotterdam. We were dropping food at Rotterdam.
DG: Ah, right. At what, well what, what, do you remember the date? Or month, year, whatever?
RA: Yeah, it was May the seventh, nineteen forty five.
DG: Ah right. So yes, that would have been very near-
RA: I can clearly remember part of the briefing was that if you fired, er if you were fired on you're not to return the fire, the gunners were not to return the fire, because we were only at five hundred feet, or thereabout, five hundred seems to stick in my mind, which seems pretty low. But I clearly remember as we crossed the Dutch coast, I was standing in the astrodome and shortly after that, and I could see the German light arm placements along the top of a dyke. They were looking at us, and we were looking back at them, sort of thing, but we'd been instructed that we wouldn't be fired on, but in the event that we were the gunners were not to return fire, which er, you know, I didn't approve of much, and nor did the gunners, but nobody fired on us anyway.
DG: Oh that was just as well, it would have made things a bit difficult under those circumstances. There were some, some people who, who had bad nerves, did you ever, and they, they were, they might have said they couldn't, didn't want to fly a mission, or something, and they were accused of having a lack of moral fibre. Did you come across any of that?
RA: When we, when we were at operational training in Scotland we had initially an Irish bomb aimer, and suddenly he seemed to disappear and he was replaced by a Canadian, a Canadian bloke, and it was always a mystery to me because it all, all happened so quickly, and I have since reflected on it and thought well, maybe he did turn it in then because we were constantly asked, or told, that if we didn't want to go on, now was the time to stop. 'Cause later on, you know, would be no good. You'd be letting the other fellows down.
DG: Yes. Yes. Did you, did you? So you didn't have any real first hand knowledge of that?
RA: No.
DG: No. Did you hear about, hear any stories about -?
RA: Ah, we heard stories about it, yes.
DG: How were they treated?
RA: Oh, pretty badly, you know, they weren't shot, but, you know, they were, lost their rank, and were sort of drummed out of the, out of the service, well out of sight anyway. Yes it was well known that if you went LMF you were in big trouble. Yeah.
DG: So, you didn't er, your mission was (pause) pretty uneventful, nothing -
RA: Pretty uneventful except that we were dropping, amongst other things, bags of flour, which was very exciting, but no, we were pretty low, and as we, they, they weren't too sure that when the bomb aimer released flour as he would release the bombs, they didn't seem to be too sure it would release properly, and my job that day, I'd been given a sort of a toggle. I had to lie on the floor of the aircraft as we approached the field that we were dropping the stuff in, and if they thought, if it held up, I was to work this toggle somehow to make it release, and I remember lying on the floor and when the bags of flour hit the airstream the, the, the flour all, well you know what flour's like, it went everywhere and I was covered in flour from the top of my head to the tip of my toes.
DG: Presumably some of the bags got out alright.
RA: They all got out, but it was the rush of air, you know, flour goes everywhere, you can imagine dropping a bag a flour, it hitting a gale.
DG: They weren't in some sort of canisters or anything?
RA: No, just hessian.
DG: But-
RA: We were very low. We were very low, we were right down below the five hundred feet.
DG: Oh, right. Ok.
RA: We were down below the height of the spires and the buildings.
DG: Oh, I see. But still, you know, a bag of flour hitting the ground, even from that height- (unclear, talking over one another)
RA: But when it hit the flip, the slipstream, I can tell you, it went, (chuckles) didn't burst a bag but-
DG: Oh, I see, the bag, yeah, oh, right, because some gets through the hessian. Yes, of course, I see. It's not the (unclear) it's not airtight, I see. Did you drop anything else, or was it just-
RA: No. Well, there may have been, but it was the flour that got me.
DG: Did you see people out coming to-
RA: Oh the field, the edge of the field was stacked with people. Crowds, of people. So certainly saw people, yes. Apart from the Germans we'd seen, we saw.
DG: Were Germans still at their post?
RA: Yes, yes.
DG: They'd just been told to stop firing? They hadn't been-
RA: The armistice hadn't been settled, you see.
DG: Yes, so they hadn't actually been officially captured or under control of-
RA: No, they were debating, they were debating the terms, I suppose.
DG: And it was just a ceasefire.
RA: They were debating what was to happen and there was a ceasefire.
DG: Yes.
RA: Which was a good thing, I suppose, from my point of view.
DG: Oh yes, you'd have been, you'd have really been a sitting duck.
RA: Well, we probably wouldn't have been doing it, at that height, anyway.
DG: Yes, yes. So ah, did, did you, when you were, do, on that mi, on that flight, on that mission, did you know that, that would be the last one you'd fly?
RA: No, no. No.
DG: You didn't know?
RA: No, we got out of the aircraft when we got back in the afternoon, and the groundcrew said, 'the war's over'. It had by then been announced. The armistice was-
DG: You had flown some other missions? That weren't counted? What were they?
RA: Well, we don't know, we were told, we just flew down over France somewhere. I think they were diversions of some sort.
DG: Oh, I see.
RA: You know, making the Germans think there was going to be an attack there, or an attack here. But anyway, they didn't let us count those.
DG: And did anything happen on those?
RA: Ah, no, we saw other aircraft, other Lancasters, which at one stage I remember we were tri- we were having our first experience of a thing called Fishpond, which I was operating, which was a screen which, with wiping, there was sort of a wiper going round at all times. It was supposed to pick up any other aircraft, beneath you, of course, wouldn't do it above, and I remember operating that. It wasn't very efficient. I remember saying to the gunners, 'look I can see something that looks to be suspicious'. I've forgotten whether it was below us or off to one side. But they said, 'ah, yes, it's another Lancaster. We've been watching it for ten minutes', so, you know, I was pretty slow on the Fishpond (chuckles). Anyway.
DG: But of course in those days that sort of technology was all very new, and it wasn't terribly easy to operate, or accurate or, I don't suppose.
RA: No. I seemed to be seeing things all the time, you know (chuckles) I suppose being a bit nervous.
DG: So when, when you'd flown your last mission, erm, what happened to you after that?
RA: Erm, some weeks later we were, we officially came out, see we'd been testing FIDO, we'd, I think we'd ferried an aircraft up to Lossiemouth, er, for, we'd taken an aircraft up to Lossiemouth, and then we brought it back with a couple of other crews that had also taken a couple of aircraft up there. And the RAAF announced, we were told that Australian, all the Australian air force, or air crew, were to be grounded, and they were calling for volunteers to form an Australian squadron to go to Burma. And you could volunteer for that squadron, or you could wait and get the troop ship home, and then go North, because the Japanese war, the Pacific war was still on. So I though, no, I been away from home now for, you know, sort of, eighteen months, more or less, I thought well I'll go home first and then let them do what they want to do with me.
DG: One fellow told me that some people in Bomber Command had received white feathers from the people in Australia. Did you ever hear about that?
RA: No.
DG: No. When you, when did you come back to Australia?
RA: October nineteen forty five.
DG: And what, what happened to you then?
RA: I was sent, I was given leave, told to report after about two or three weeks to Sandgate, RAAF Sandgate holding unit, and I was discharged. December nineteen forty five.
DG: And what did you do then? What did you do for work?
RA: I went back to work.
DG: Right.
RA: We were offered a rehab course, I took a rehab course, in accounting, so, and that was by correspondence so that took me, that was forty five, that took me another five years to complete that, night time, part time, an so on.
DG: Right. And where did you meet your wife?
RA: At work.
DG: Ah, right. What, what, so you, you an accountant or?
RA:Well, I was doing my accountancy, but I was working for a company that sold machines that did accounting, you know, they were accounting machines. Machinery that could handle ledgers, and most accounting is a ledger, so I was working for them, and she was working for them, and there we are (chuckles).
DG: And do you keep in touch with any people from Bomber Command?
RA: They're all gone, they're all gone, as far as I can see. The only had one, the only one in Australia was the navigator, he did, I probably shouln't mention his name, he did law, he'd been a policeman, he did law, and I picked up the paper one day, The Australian, and here his name was, he'd, he'd tickled the trust fund, I believe, so I think he finished in gaol.
DG: Oh dear. How did you, how were you treated after the war? As being with Bomber Command
RA: Alright. No problems.
DG: Yeah, yeah, right. Well thank you very much. That's much appreciated.
RA: Oh, pretty easy, pretty painless.
DG: Thank you.
RA: Not very interesting.
DG: Always interesting. Finish.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AAllenRM160809
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Richard Murray Allen
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:28:57 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Donald Gould
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-08-09
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Murray Allen was born in Queensland, Australia. He joined the Air Training Corps and later volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force on his eighteenth birthday. He trained as a wireless operator in Australia, before being posted to England, where after further training, he flew one operation with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna. He went home to Australia in October 1945, before being discharged in the December that year.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-04
1945-05
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Adams
101 Squadron
aircrew
FIDO
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Oxford
promotion
RAF Bottesford
RAF Kinloss
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF Windrush
training
Wellington
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/116/1187/EDerbyshireMTMillingEM450405-0004.2.jpg
fbd5eaa5f66defd8cf3c9ef0cb72d636
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Milling, Edward
E Milling
Description
An account of the resource
20 Items. The collection concerns Sergeant Edward Milling DFM (656624 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, correspondence, newspaper cuttings and four photographs. Edward Milling was a navigator with 103 and 166 Squadrons at RAF Elsham Wolds and RAF Kirmington. He was killed 27/28 September 1943 when his Lancaster crashed in Germany while on an operation to Hannover. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bren Bridges and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive Staff.<br /><br />Additional information on Edward Milling is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/116227/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Milling, E
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
MILLING (Flt./Sergt.). – In loving memory of my dear Husband Ted, missing, believed killed, September 27/28, 1943, in a raid over Germany.
Since you wished me good-bye,
With a kiss and a sigh.
And a smile I shall never forget;
Though the days seem like years,
I can smile, through my tears,
For I know, dear, that we’ll meet again.
From loving Wife and Baby Brenda
MILLING (Flt./Sergt.). – In loving memory of our dear son Eddie, presumed killed in raid over Germany, September 27/28, 1943.
Beautiful memories are all we have left,
Of one we loved and will never forget.
- Mother and Dad, also Brother John (serving with the C.M.F.).
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Obituaries of Edward Milling
Description
An account of the resource
First obituary in memory of “my dear husband Fred” from “loving wife and baby Brenda”; second from his parents and his brother John.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EDerbyshireMTMillingEM450405-0004
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Adams
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-27
1943-09-28
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Milling, Edward. Obituaries
grief
killed in action
missing in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/86/814/NBeltonSLS151120-09.2.jpg
b15c9fb9dd3bb2a3331d50555a2fa570
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Belton, Spencer Lewis
Spencer Lewis Belton
Spencer Lewis Smith Belton
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Belton, SLS
Description
An account of the resource
34 items. Photographs, correspondence and newspaper clippings concerning Sergeant Spencer Lewis Belton (1919 - 1940, 581261 Royal Air Force). Spencer Lewis Belton flew as an observer/ bomb aimer with 144 Squadron from RAF Hemswell. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal after an operation to Wilhelmshaven in July 1940 and was interviewed about it by the British Broadcasting Corporation. He was killed 10/11 August 1940 when his Hampden P4368 crashed in the Netherlands, during an operation to Homberg. <br /><br />Additional information on Spencer Lewis Belton is available via the <a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/loss/101634/">IBCC Losses Database.</a><br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Denise Carr and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-20
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[...] OIL FIRES
[...] R.A.F. PLANES
“We blew those tanks to blazes”
Flames rose to 300ft. and great clouds of yellow smoke rose to 1,000ft. from oil tanks at Vlaardingen, near Rotterdam, after a raid on Saturday night by Blenheim Bombers of Coastal Command.
“We could see the oil tanks very clearly in the moonlight – and we just blew them to blazes”, said one of the British pilots last night.
“The Germans opened up from a ring of guns all round as we came in, but our leader beat them to it. He got in several direct hits.
There were huge explosions, and a mountain of smoke which came up provided cover for the rest of us. The heat was so great that some of us, following on, were thrown violently upwards as we came over the targets”.
Seen 100 miles away
The fires lit up the countryside toward Rotterdam, and were so vivid that one pilot could see every detail of the railway lines and sheds.
The sky was still red with the reflection of the fires when the Blenheims were one hundred miles away on the return journey, according to the squadron leader, and the pilot of another aircraft saw the oil tanks still blazing furiously four hours later.
But these tanks were only one of many targets on Saturday night.
Germany’s naval base at Wilhemshaven was bombed again, despite fighter attacks and violent anti-aircraft fire.
One bomber got home safely though its wings were torn and a rudder and both airscrews damaged by shell splinters.
None of the crew was injured, but the navigator found shrapnel in his flying suit.
Another aircraft over Wilhelmshaven came down so low to attack two warships lying at anchor by a wharf that it nearly collided with a church steeple. Searchlights and A.A. batteries surrounding the docks were attacked too.
Two supply ships were bombed at sea, and one of them is believed to have been badly damaged.
Five of our bombers were lost in these operations.
Yesterday’s daylight raids by the R.A.F. included attacks on the radio station on Utsire Island, near Stavanger, and airfields at Flushing. Two of our reconnaissance aircraft failed to return.
Berlin still claiming
Berlin claimed last night to have scored direct hits on a cruiser and two destroyers during Saturday’s attacks on convoys in the Channel.
A communique issued by Nazi High Command said that German fighters shot down eight British planes in these operations.
This was refuted by an official statement in London that four British fighters were lost. One of our pilots escaped.
Authoritative comment backed up this official version, saying:-
“Today, as yesterday, the German authorities have distorted in their own favour the results of the day’s air operations over the English Channel and British coast.
“Actually the result of yesterday’s operations in this area was twelve German machines definitely destroyed.”
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oil fires R.A.F planes
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Great Britain. Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Description
An account of the resource
Details of operations on oil tanks at Rotterdam and on Wilhelmshaven.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
NBeltonSLS151120-09
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Daily Express
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Adams
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-07-22
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Netherlands
Atlantic Ocean--North Sea
Germany--Wilhelmshaven
Netherlands--Rotterdam
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-07
anti-aircraft fire
Blenheim
bombing