1
25
2
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1172/11741/PSouthwellBR1601.2.jpg
9a7c396496641eda96c6db3449a4f406
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1172/11741/ASouthwellBR160903.1.mp3
5ddd2f3974411b29035fa9bcd8f13711
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Southwell, Brian Robert
B R Southwell
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. An oral history interview with Brian Robert Southwell (b. 1916, 402261 Royal Australian Air Force), his log books, documents and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 148 and 178 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Southwell, BR
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Brian Southwell. He was a pilot on Wellingtons and Liberators and numerous other aeroplanes post war. The interview is taking place at his brother Don’s house in St Ives in Sydney. It is the 3rd of September 2016 and my name is Adam Purcell. Brian, can we tell, can you, or let’s start if you tell me something about your early life growing up. School and first job and things like that.
BS: What I’d done early?
AP: Yeah. Tell me something about your life before flying.
BS: Well I was always interested in flying but at the time, at that time it was, the Depression was on and we had no money to go fiddling around, looking at aeroplanes [laughs] around the joint. So I had to, I had to sit back and get an office job and that. So I was just started off doing some accountancy which didn’t, which didn’t interest me at all. I went back to flying and I built that model aeroplane. The Moth. And while I was doing that I got to know a whole lot of de Havilland’s. You know the people out out at the factory there. And they were very helpful in getting me all the drawings and all sorts of things there to operate with. And I met all sorts of people that had, a lot of them had their own aeroplanes and I got very friendly with a man called Axel Von Goes. G O E S. His father was the Swedish consul in Sydney. I was chatting away to him there and he said, ‘I’ve got an aeroplane here,’ he said [laughs] he said, ‘It’s mine.’ And his was a little, a Leopard Moth. So he bought the, he had the sort of, the Leopard Moth there and he took, took the aeroplane up to barrel there and he landed on a racetrack over there. He made a little error on the place and knocked the tail on the fence and then smashed it all up. So he, he sold, sold the wreckage to de Havilland’s. The next thing, he appears he’s says, ‘I’ve got another aeroplane,’ I said, ‘Oh no.’ So he bought a Fairchild 24 that he got [unclear] with. And he decided he’d go to England to learn a particular skill. To do a course there. So I went down to England too with a ship with the Fairchild 24 and it fell off the sling there and headed out along the bloody ground. He got away alright there. He got to England alright, did his course there and he said, ‘I’ve sold the bloody Fairchild, he said, ‘I’ve sold it to a Dutch crew. A Dutchman.’ So he sold that to a Dutchman and still get him without an aeroplane. So he started off going back home via America. So he darted into a factory there and he ordered a bloody Stinson which he bought. That’s, that’s been going for quite a long, quite a long time and we used to get the aeroplane and we’d go to do all sorts of trips around. Yeah. Brisbane, Melbourne and all around, around New South Wales there. It was a beautiful little aeroplane. What does he jolly well do? [I’m with A&A [?] at this stage of the game he said, ‘Will you come up and do some checks with me on a Stinson.’ I said, ‘Well what have you done to the bloody thing?’ And what had he done. He’d put a new engine in it. A different engine in it. A 5-cylinder radial engine in it which ruined the whole bloody aeroplane. Poor old Axel. He went to Melbourne and he got married. He didn’t get any enthusiastic from his wife and children. So that was it. Yeah.
AP: So did Axel —
BS: Was that enough for you?
AP: Did Axel teach you to fly? Was it, did Axel teach you to fly and you flew with Axel? Is that the story? Brian. Did Axel teach you to fly?
BS: I did a lot of flying with him. He was unofficial. He wasn’t an instructor. But he’d aviate the thing around the place.
AP: So —
BS: I recollect he used to be a great enthusiast at stall turns. We took this Stinson over his house at Rose Bay. He had a house in Latimer Road, Rose Bay. Anyhow, we get up top there and were doing all the stall turns and what have you, around the place and the bloody engine stopped. So we [laughs] what did we have to do? We had to land on the golf course. You can see now all the people looking out of the flats [unclear] as we went gliding past with no propeller going. Oh dear. Oh dear.
AP: Very good. So, Brian where were you and what were you doing when you heard that war had been declared?
BS: What was that?
AP: Where were you and what were you doing when war had been declared?
BS: I can only just hear you.
AP: Sorry. Where were you and what were you doing when war was declared?
BS: Oh, when war was declared I was working in an office. I got out. It was pretty well into the start of the war. I was in the 22nd of July 1940.
AP: And so you, you went straight into the Air Force.
BS: Oh yeah. After, when I had to go up to Bradfield Park out at Lindfield here. And that was the ITS [Initial Training School] place. Then I had to go out to, out to Mascot, to 4 EFTS [Elementary Flight Training School] to learn to fly. And after I’d qualified on the Tiger Moth, I was sent off to 3 SFTS [Service Flying Training School] in Amberley in Queensland to fly an Avro Anson. That kept me going for a little while. I was sent home on leave and what have you and the next thing, I’m, I’m posted off to England on a bloody ship. No one recorded any of that around the place but I can assure you I was given, handed a ticket mind you. A first-class ticket to England. That took us bloody months and months. We were, we went to South Africa. Across to Fremantle. To South Africa. Went up to Puerto Rico. I had quite a look around there and we finished up getting over to England. That was an embarkation place where you decided what you were going to do. The sent us off to different, I was sent out to this ferrying. Crowded with the little aircraft. Not the Liberator.
AP: Can you tell me, Brian about your first solo?
BS: First solo. Yes. I remember the man’s name. The instructor was Mr Campbell. Mr Campbell that was running this out at, out at Mascot. All the training place there were mainly ex-civilian pilots and they were taken into the Air Force. They were made flight lieutenants and off they went. Yeah.
AP: And —
BS: More?
AP: What happened on your first solo?
BS: Oh, the first flight. I remember I took off on the one six area from the south there and I went down to the flying area training and [laughs] and had a little run around. Before I went old Campbell said, ‘Watch you don’t bloody well bend that bloody aeroplane.’ I said, ‘Alright, I won’t bend the bloody aeroplane for you.’ So I, 5 ASC I’d done the thing and it’s it didn’t took a very long flight. He was pleased to see me back I can assure you. Yeah. He died later on.
AP: So —
BS: There was a lot happened to those. He was somewhere over overseas and where you turned one engine and he turned it back into a, into a bloody hill. That was it. Yeah.
AP: Did you, did you see any accidents?
BS: What was that?
AP: Did you see any aircraft accidents during your flying?
BS: Accidents?
AP: Yeah. Particularly during your training.
BS: No. Only the, you know Liberators and what have you. There you saw the bloody Germans and what have you getting, getting all annoyed [laughs] Yeah. Because we were, we were operating a very [unclear] like up to a max number of about four in a flight you know. It made it a lot easier than the people in the Bomber Command who had ruddy dozens and dozens of bloody aeroplanes. Because we used to, we were in North Africa in a tented, tented camp shared with Americans. And the Americans fortunately supplied all the food which was, which was very good. And we used to, of a night time we used to go up the Adriatic Sea and you’d see the Mount Vesuvius as you went past there and you’d go right up to the top and you’d go up to the Danube. And you’d go about twenty miles down the Danube and you’d let all the fellows out. All the Yugoslavs. They were, they were quite interesting people except that they didn’t speak much bloody English. They did, they did what they could. Yeah.
AP: So, what did you think of wartime England?
BS: What did I?
AP: What did you think of England when you first got there?
BS: How’d I get there?
AP: What did you think of England when you first got there?
BS: Oh, I thought it was, it was excellent, yeah. I liked it very much because I had, I had a lot of relations over there. In Maidstone in Kent. And I used to visit him quite a lot on my leave. He was very popular with a lot of my crew because he owned a bloody brewery [laughs] . Fremlin’s Brewery. One other thing. English people were very good.
AP: Did you, did you see much effect of the war in England?
BS: I saw a few bombs around in London while I was there. But as I say I used to spend most of my time down at Maidstone in Kent. I kept away from the action of the aircraft. Because this person as I used to go to see in England her daughter is down in Melbourne. She’s still here. And the place in England it was absolutely fantastic with the aircraft people. And there was some people in the, who I used to go and stay with there at Maidstone he used to or she used to have people in for dinner. Anyhow, this particular night they brought in this flight lieutenant but he was actually First World War. So he sat back and told us all about what it was like as a controller and what have you in England. He said, he was up in the tower there. He had the green light, you know. The red light there to operate in. A noise came over and he said, ‘I’ll give this bloke the green light.’ So he gave the green light. This bloke came and landed. Unfortunately, he was a bloody German. A Focke Wulf 190. He thought [laughs] this is good. He goes along and then another German came around and there was three of them altogether they caught. All Germans. On the green light. Yeah.
AP: That’s, that’s incredible. Alright. So when you, you first get, got to England you would have gone to Bournemouth, I think.
BS: Bournemouth.
AP: Yeah.
BS: That’s right. There were places there. One was Bournemouth and the other was Brighton.
AP: Yeah.
BS: Yeah. Yeah.
AP: What did you do after you’d finished at those places?
BS: What did you say?
AP: Where did you go next after, after you’d just —
BS: I went on those trips to — out to the Middle East.
AP: Did you do an Operational Training Unit course in England?
BS: Did I what?
AP: Did you go to an OTU [Operational Training Unit] in England?
BS: What did you say?
AP: Did you go to an OTU in England?
BS: I think you’d better call [unclear]
AP: Ok. Alright. Let’s, you were talking about going to see your relative in Kent. What, what things did you do on leave?
BS: What would I do with the people in Kent? All sorts of people. They used, they used to take me to see, put on a bloody show. Show all the locals what the RAF were and what have you. Yeah.
AP: Did you [pause] ok. Tell me how you met your crew.
BS: Which?
AP: How did you meet your crew?
BS: They were just picked out. I didn’t any. I had two bloody gunners out there and [laughs] they were very nasty little fellows. They were interested in taking, escorted away from the establishment. Constantly, ‘Get away and don’t come back here.’ I took them back to Australia. Salmon. Ted Salmon and Mr Kipp. I forget the other one’s name. [unclear] No. I can’t remember the —
AP: Right. So you went to the Middle East.
BS: What’s that?
AP: What did you do in the Middle East?
BS: In Italy?
AP: In the Middle East. In the Middle East.
BS: Oh sorry. We used to operate out of Derna. That’s on the North African coast there. We were all living in tents and it wasn’t very comfortable I can assure you there. And we used to do bombing raids on Tripoli and Benghazi and on the ships and what have you. We knocked a few ships off the place. And Crete. We used to go give old Crete a bit of a, a bit of a rumbling over. I had the air forces, the Lord Trenchard, he came down to see us at the squadron and he said, ‘I’d like you to try and get rid of some of these [unclear] like Maleme at Crete. And he said we’ll have all goes on this. So, he was alright. About five bloody days we hopped down in at this place. You’ve never seen such fires in all your life. Yeah. It’s the question of you’re getting around getting this information because there’s so many other people have gone now that can tell you where all these things were and what have you.
AP: This is why I’m talking to you now Brian.
BS: Yeah.
AP: While you’re still here.
BS: Oh, I know. I belonged, when I, I retired in 1976 and I would join a lot of these historical societies and what have you there but they were more interested in writing books out themselves rather than about the people that were involved in those days. So —
AP: Can you, can you tell me something about when you were operating out of Libya?
BS: Out of where?
AP: I think you said Derna.
BS: Derna. Yeah.
AP: You said you were based in Derna.
BS: Yeah.
AP: What, what was that place like to live in?
BS: That was very interesting. Very, very old houses and that there and on your day off you could go down into the village. A lot of them were just as left you know. People living in there and they were quite, quite to do with, but what we used, of all places we needed the bloody Arabs and, but the Arabs were the American source of pistols. And the Americans used to get on a truck and go out in the desert and find one of these big Arab compounds and get themselves a nice Beretta or some other gun [laughs].
AP: What, what things did you do to, to keep yourself amused? What did you do to keep yourselves amused when you weren’t flying?
BS: When I was flying?
AP: No. When you were not flying what did you do in Derna?
BS: I used to go around. The man that ran, who was the managing director of the brewery. He was, he was a very friendly. He used to put me on to all sorts of people that he knew to put you on to about what goes on around the place.
AP: And, and what’s sorts of things were going on around the place? What sort of things did you go and do?
BS: Well, there wasn’t much out there to do other than to go to the pictures. But I never used to be interested in theatres. No.
AP: Alright. Were there, were there any superstitions or hoodoos on your squadron?
BS: Any hoodoos?
AP: Or superstitions or anything.
BS: No. No. No.
AP: No. No squadron lore. Oh, worth a try. Ok. Let’s talk about your operations for a little while. In, in the Middle East what sort of work were you doing? What sorts of targets were you bombing?
BS: Well we were doing all the bombing up in Tripoli and Benghazi and the shipping around the place. But we were also but I got, I was in hospital for a little while and I had to go with a couple of other blokes to fly with and they took me to see [unclear]
AP: What — ok. So, you were flying. What were you flying? Liberators or Wellingtons?
BS: Oh, sorry, I told you we went up to Belgrade. Belgrade. And —
AP: And what did you do at Belgrade?
BS: At Belgrade we had a look at the locals at low level. Because those Liberators you know had huge bloody engines. Four engines in them in there and when you came down low you used a lot of fuel and with the fuel there was a whole load of flames coming out of the bloody thing. Oh yes.
AP: And what, what other fun things did you get up to in aeroplanes?
BS: A couple of times around, a couple of trips. On one, one of the COs as a matter of fact. He said he’d like to go and have a good close look at Belgrade. He didn’t realise how close it was going to be [laughs] Because Belgrade’s got a lot of bridges around the place. Anyhow, we levelled out and it was all lit up. We were right on the bloody deck there and there was people running everywhere. We went flying up and away and then it was to Derna again. To get up to Derna was six hours and going back was six hours. And all, all these men from, the Yugoslavs and what have you they couldn’t speak much English around the place. They used to be parachuted out the back of the, back of the Liberator.
AP: So, you were dropping parachutists.
BS: Yeah.
AP: As well as bombs.
BS: Also, a whole lot of supplies they used to give them. All sorts of stuff for the locals to live, you know. There was gold and all. You name it, it was around.
AP: So, this was what you used to deliver with the Liberators.
BS: Yeah.
AP: Wow. Wow. So, what, what did you do next? Where did you go after that?
BS: Where did I — ?
AP: Where did you go after that?
BS: I went on, I went to do a flying school at the RAF school of flying. I was in an airfield for about a month on Airspeed Oxford aircraft. That was a very nice interlude. Resting. Yeah.
AP: Did you, did you, you were an instructor I believe.
BS: Oh yeah.
AP: Can you tell me something about that?
BS: It was quite interesting. The chief there, he called me in and told me this, ‘Listen,’ he said, ‘I wish you could keep [unclear] a lot of people wanting to pay, to come for flying in the RAF.’ And he said, ‘The parachute girls are alright,’ what have you. ‘We’ll give them a ride.’ So I was appointed the overseer to the passengers.
AP: So, when —
BS: He’s dead now. Bill.
AP: When you were —
BS: When I got [pause ] I’m just trying to think there. I went to this flying school. What he said there was that the people who were a much higher rank than I was. I was a warrant officer at that time. So he said, ‘You’d better get yourself a commission.’ So I said, ‘That’s alright. Thank you very much.’ So he said, ‘Go in and see this place.’ I went down to a magnificent old house in 5 Group and listened to what I had to say. They had this magnificent big old table there with, magnificent carved chairs and what have you there and all these people asking me silly questions. And I think they thanked me very much for my interest and I said, ‘Thank you,’ and off I went out. A couple of days later the bloke said you’d better get down to bloody Melbourne and get yourself some uniforms, the officer’s uniform store. So, I went down to Melbourne — to London at least and went to a place in Saville Row of all places. I was in there for, I went a few times. I had to go in there to check out. Then I was, another day I had to go down to get a uniform, not a uniform, an overcoat. I wore it. A beautiful overcoat from Saville Row in London. Yeah.
AP: And that was part of your officer’s uniform?
BS: The real old-fashioned tailors and they were sitting up on top of a bloody chair and this little —
AP: What —
BS: I’m sorry if this is a little bit boring for you.
AP: That’s alright. I’m coming up with questions. Its ok. So, you’re in London. Right. At Saville Row and all that sort of thing. What, what did you think of wartime London?
BS: What was this?
AP: What did you think of wartime London?
BS: I can’t hear you.
AP: What did you think of London during the war?
BS: London itself?
AP: Yeah.
BS: Oh, I didn’t [unclear] impressed with it. Yeah.
AP: Was it —
BS: There was very opportunity to get around looking at all the sights around the place.
AP: And what sorts of things were you looking at in London?
BS: Have you seen Felicity’s little, did she show you that?
AP: I did. Yes. Very good. Alright. So, who were you instructing at Lichfield? Who were you teaching?
BS: That’s 27.
AP: Yeah.
BS: Lichfield. Staffordshire. Is that? Where the potteries were. All the potteries were around there.
AP: Can you tell me a story or two from Lichfield?
BS: Oh yes [laughs] I can. At Lichfield it was very interesting because there is a big cathedral church at Lichfield. It’s the only one in England with three, three spires on the thing. So, I had a friend, he was Warrant Officer Webb and he used to fly the Moth Minor. That was for recreation. He would go for a ride in the Moth Minor. So, he called me up and he said, ‘How about we go for a real run around in the Minor?’ So I said, ‘Alright. We’ll go running around in the bloody Minor.’ So away we go. Anyhow, he didn’t do much around there. He got right down on the spires. He was amongst the bloody spires there [laughs] And when we got back, we got back to the to the RAF station there and the CO was really jumping up and down, ‘What on earth were you annoying [laughs] annoying the bishop down,’ [laughs] He said, ‘You were flying down his spires.’ So anyway, we dined off that for a while.
AP: What was the —
BS: I’ve never been so close to a spire of a church in a Moth Minor.
AP: Can you, can you tell me about the pubs in England? The pubs. Did you go, you know when you were on time off, when you had time off did you go to the nearest pub to have a drink or something?
BS: I used to go, it took me a lot of time to get the train down to Maidstone in Kent. To my relatives there.
AP: Alright. So, what, what happened after Lichfield?
BS: When I finished up all my operations and what have you they said you were going to go, you were going home. I said well that’s very good. Off we go home. I get down to the bloody docks there and we were going to New York. Here we are sitting, sitting and there’s a bloody great Cunard liner. The Aquitania was there and it was full of American troops on the way home from Europe and what have you there. Crammed on that ship was sixteen thousand army people. Yeah. Sixteen thousand. I was very glad I was in the officer’s mess to get a decent feed. What else would you like to —
AP: So, you went, you went to New York on that boat.
BS: Oh sorry. That was another one. When we got to New York what was it? Oh, we found, they found out that the air attaché was an Air Marshall Williams and he was in the Pentagon. And they organised all these, these aeroplanes they’d bought, the only places we had for them was they organised a bloody crews for them. So, the snag was that you had to have an instrument rating to fly in America. So they had to find somebody to do this. So I get shoved off. I shove off to Chattanooga in Tennessee. To Smyrna, Tennessee. I was down there for a month to do all my training for the white card and what have you. That was it. I got my white card. Yeah.
AP: What, what sort of training did you have to do for the instrument training?
BS: The training out at Smyrna was absolutely excellent. First class. The visit to the Pentagon was a very interesting thing. It was a huge place.
AP: Tell me more about that. Can you tell me more about the Pentagon? Can you tell me more about the Pentagon?
BS: I’m not really sure but, Felicity and I think she seems to know more about me in those days these days.
AP: Right. So you did your instrument rating training in the US. What happened?
BS: Oh yeah.
AP: What happened then?
BS: Well, I was able to fly anywhere in the United States with my white card. With a Liberator. I could just trundle out, fill up the tank and off we’d go. That was it. Yeah.
AP: And, and so where did you go?
BS: Oh, I went to Kelly Field the place I went to. They were very good. The instructors at the place. They were a lot of ex-airline pilots and they were very good.
AP: And, and what did you then do with that instrument training?
BS: Around New York we were really feted. They treated us like bloody kings. It was quite a novelty, I think. The American there. Aircrew flying around New York. But after it was Pan American that would go with them around the place and they used to have special trips from Australia to New York. For a hundred and thirty-four dollars Sydney to New York. So, I would go there every time of the week. I wanted to. My sister, she was there for twenty eight years at the consulate there. Yeah.
AP: So then, after you did this training in, in the US then you flew to Australia. Can you tell me about that?
BS: After I’d finished the training thing I was a trainer. Up to Sacramento in California. Sacramento is the capital of California and I was told to take one of these great new aeroplanes which I did. Got the aeroplane. Off I trundled with this great monster and that was it. That was, then after I’d arrived back in Australia I got sent off down to Tocumwal. I knew some fellows in the air force and I sort of said, ‘Listen. There’s no future in joining the bloody Air Force.’ I got out of there very rapidly.
AP: Can you, can you tell me a little bit about flying across the Pacific? What was that like in a Liberator? The brand new aeroplane. What was it like to fly across the Pacific in a brand new aeroplane?
BS: Across the Pacific. Well it was quite, it was quite plain because we didn’t have all the things there are around now. Radios and what have you. I remember it took us, took us to go from Sacramento to Hickam Field in Honolulu there, it took us about twelve hours. Yeah.
AP: Can you tell me a story about that trip? Can you tell me a story about that trip? About that?
BS: No. Strange to say it was very uneventful. The four engines all went nicely. And I, [unclear] Amberley, Queensland. I remember getting back there about 5 o’clock in the afternoon. I was most relieved. The locals were alright. So I got down on the bloody deck and flew over Redcliffe. Ambled in. There was nought to do there. The customs were all, had all gone off for the night so had to come back the next night to do our customs check. Yeah.
AP: And how many hours were on that aeroplane when you arrived?
BS: Oh, I couldn’t tell you. [unclear] Maybe thirty something hours.
AP: And you did almost all of them. Pretty cool.
BS: Well, it was all a piece of cake sitting back in a nice bloody new aeroplane, you know.
AP: So, so what happened after that?
BS: Well I got sent down to Tocumwal. I was popular down there because all these people down at Tocumwal thought that they were going to America to pick up these aeroplanes.
AP: What, what did you do at Tocumwal?
BS: After that, after that I joined, joined the A&A [ANA?]
AP: And can you tell me some stories about that flying perhaps?
BS: Australia deteriorated in a lot of areas as regards to the RAAF.
AP: Sorry? Say again. What were you saying then? What were you saying then, Brian?
BS: What was I saying?
AP: What were you saying just then?
BS: What was I —
AP: What were you saying? Ok. Don’t worry. So could you tell me a story about A&A?
BS: A&A. Well it was quite interesting. I started off on a DC3 and a DC2. Very good flying. I was the first officer at the front there writing out books and everywhere you had bits of bloody paper to fill in around the joint. Yeah.
AP: And what —
BS: A&A unfortunately deteriorated rather more than some [unclear] to whatever [unclear] staff didn’t like us very much. That’s when I had the, they had that Convair that John was talking about down at Woollongong.
AP: And can you just, because we weren’t recording the conversation earlier can you tell me your story about the Convair and Sydney Harbour Bridge.
BS: Oh yeah. Well that was a remarkable aeroplane. The Convair. because you sit over the top at nine thousand feet there and all you’ve got to do is slam the wheels down and look out and see where the runway is and what have you. And you adjust the rest of the, the rest of the descending and you could go down from the Harbour Bridge down to [unclear] there. Very bloody quickly time. Yeah.
AP: So it was a very, a very manoeuvrable aeroplane.
BS: Oh yeah. There was a, there was a 340 [unclear] TAA [?] and so on.
AP: So you had a fairly varied flying career. I think there’s something like twenty-seven thousand hours in your book.
BS: Twenty. I finished with twenty-seven thousand and seven.
AP: And seven.
BS: Yeah.
AP: And what is, or how many different aeroplanes did you fly?
BS: What with, as a passenger, that was quite a bloody aeroplane so I managed to get wheedled into a little [unclear] and have a look in it.
AP: As a, as a pilot what is your favourite aeroplane?
BS: Oh sorry. As a pilot I only flew the, the Wellington I flew. That was another. Another bomber.
AP: What, what was your favourite aeroplane? What is your favourite aeroplane, Brian?
BS: The Liberator was my favourite there. You could really get around in that.
AP: I’m sorry. I did, I missed that. What was your favourite?
BS: The best one I used to fly around in was a little Stinson with my friend. The Swedish consul’s son.
AP: Very good. So, what, when did you retire did you say? When did you retire from flying?
BS: When did I — ?
AP: Retire. When did you retire? When did you stop flying?
BS: Oh sorry. Age sixty. ’96.
AP: And what did you do then after you retired?
BS: They very condescendingly gave me a private licence notice. I never ran it up. The only thing I’ve ever flown in, a chap offered a ride in his private aeroplane which frightened me no end. It was a bloody Rapide. A de Havilland Rapide.
AP: You told me a story before as well about Keith Smith.
BS: Who’s that?
AP: Did you tell, you told me a story about Keith Smith before.
BS: What’s the name?
AP: Keith Smith. You told me a story before about Keith Smith.
BS: Keith Smith.
AP: Keith Smith.
BS: Oh Sir Keith Smith. Yeah. I used to work in an office once. I used to go around and see old Sir Keith about is writing the cheques out and do all sorts of things there. I got friendly with him. He was a very nice man to talk to. And another fellow I used to talk to was Sir Hudson Fysh you know, from Qantas. He was another good fellow.
AP: What did you have to do with him?
BS: I used to carry him from Adelaide to Sydney on occasions.
AP: And you said you went flying with Keith Smith.
BS: I never flew with Sir Keith Smith. I only saw him in his office.
AP: Oh ok. Alright. Ok. Tell me your, your favourite flying story. Can you tell me your favourite flying story from your flying career?
BS: My flying what?
AP: Can you tell me your favourite story of your flying career.
BS: [unclear] No.
AP: No? [pause] Alright. How, Brian, how did you find, after Air Force how did you find readjusting to civilian life?
BS: It was very interesting Adam because as I say I was a bloody clerk you know sitting in the right hand seat of the aeroplane with bits of bloody paper and books and what have you. Do this. Do that.
AP: How, how did you find civilian life after air, the air force?
BS: [unclear]
AP: How did you find civilian life after the air force?
BS: The civilian flying was quite interesting. I used to, to fly to England with the RAF. They were very good at the OTUs.
AP: So, in, in what way were the RAF very good?
BS: Well I used to go to work at 9 o’clock in the morning. Had my breakfast. I waddled down to the flight and have a chat around the joint. Come along and so many people want to go flying today. If you could fill in. I’d say, ‘Alright. I’ll fill in. Give these people a bit of a run.’ We were going in a smaller aircraft than the Liberator. The Liberator they never ever took us to go flying with passengers in them. Around the place at all.
AP: What did you think of the Liberator as an aeroplane? What did you think of the Liberator?
BS: The RAF?
AP: Of the Liberator. What, what was your impression of the Liberator?
BS: Absolutely fantastic. I was very careful of those bloody big bits out the back though [laughs]. The rudders and things down there.
AP: And how, how easy was it to fly?
BS: Quite good. One thing, we didn’t have a lot of bombs in there. Very well. When you laid it up with six thousand pound bombs there.
AP: And were you ever involved in any crashes?
BS: No. Never any crashes. No.
AP: Were you involved in like the aftermath? Like investigating any crashes or something like that. There’s a, something in one of your logbooks I found which —
BS: We were going down to Melbourne. The little aerodrome down there. The little one for aircraft.
AP: Moorabbin.
BS: Err —
AP: Moorabbin.
BS: Moorabbin. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. So, there’s a, there are a few photos in one of your logbooks. It’s in an envelope and it says crash — Victor Hotel Charlie X-ray Delta. Higgins Field, Cape York. 5th of May 1945.
BS: Where’s that?
AP: This is in your logbook.
BS: Oh yeah.
AP: And there are some photos of that.
BS: Was it May?
AP: Yeah. May 1945. Yes.
BS: That was a very frightening thing.
AP: Can you tell me about it?
BS: Oh yeah. When we used to transfer from one crew to the other at Higgins Field. That’s the name of the aerodrome right at the top of the point there. So, these characters, they came roaring in and it was pelting with rain and what have you there. And they got caught. Caught out. They smashed the bloody thing as you see there. She was really a mess because there were bits, bits of people and bits of bloody freight and all sort of things they’d got on the joint. They brought a lot of material. Rolls of fabrics. The Tiger Moth. And in the crash they all came loose and they were rolling all over the joint. This big roll of fabric.
AP: And what was your involvement?
BS: [unclear] I went up there to have a look at the crash and I found a man with this RAF Tiger Moth. He said he’d take me up and have a look around which he did.
AP: So, you were, you were up at, where was it? You were up at Higgins Field at that time.
BS: Higgins Field. Yeah.
AP: So you were there when it happened? Brian, Brian. Were you there when the crash happened?
BS: Was I there? Yeah. I was. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. So —
BS: I was sitting with a crew waiting for the, to get an aeroplane to go flying again.
AP: And, and what happened after that?
BS: Well there was no action going there at all after all the people were dead.
AP: Yes. This is true. Can you, what was I going to [pause] yeah. So tell me, tell me the story of your caricature. I’m just looking at your logbook and I see a little caricature of you. A little, a little cartoon.
BS: Yeah.
AP: Can you tell me about that?
BS: The cartoon.
AP: Yeah.
BS: I don’t know who the artist was. That was in, sent up to Melbourne to go to London to get the cartoonist to get going but I never ever got a copy of that thing. I was going to get Felicity to copy that. It’s a beautiful head [laughs]
AP: Yeah. It is. It is. I guess we should, we should go back to the beginning. Can you tell me about your model aeroplane?
BS: The model aeroplane?
AP: Yeah.
BS: Well, I decided to make this bloody, this bloody model and I approached de Havilland down at Mascot and I told them what I wanted to do and what have you. And I said could I have some access to the drawings and the store. The store and what have you there. No problem at all they said. Which they did. They folded now. Folded up. The company have. de Havilland’s. They have a big museum in Salisbury. Near Hatfield in England.
AP: How, how long did the model take you to build?
BS: It took me eighteen months to make that model.
AP: Wow and —
BS: You know all these bloody ribs, you know. Bloody pages of them.
AP: And what happened then? What happened to it after that?
BS: Well, I was approached by the Australian Women’s Flying Club for an instructional thing. They wanted to use it and they said, ‘Yes we’ll look after it,’ the war and what have you, I never heard another bloody thing from them.
AP: Oh really. Not very nice.
BS: Yeah.
AP: There’s another photo in your logbook. This is logbook number three. It looks like it’s a Stinson or an Auster or something. It looks like it might be you standing next to someone.
BS: What’s that?
AP: There’s a, there’s a photo in your logbook. In 1946 I think.
BS: [unclear] Felicity here. She was looking at all these things and telling me and I haven’t a clue what she’s talking about.
AP: It looks like it’s a Stinson because there’s an entry that says Sydney, Old Bar, Coffs Harbour Casino, Brisbane and it’s in Victor Hotel Alpha Charlie Zulu.
BS: The which?
AP: Alpha Charlie Zulu. It’s a Stinson.
BS: Yeah. That was my friend Axel.
AP: Yeah. Can you tell me something of that flight?
BS: Well that aeroplane was a magnificent aeroplane but as I say I had to keep away from the A&A and CAA [?] The A&A, and they took a dim view if you went flying in other aircraft with other people.
AP: Why was that? Why? Why?
BS: It mentions in there about ACZ [?] does it?
AP: Yeah. There’s a photo of it. There’s a photo of you. And it must be you and Axel.
BS: Yeah. Yes.
AP: It looks pretty cool. Let’s have a flash through it. Now —
BS: He was, he was quite a character that bloke. I used to like him but a lot of people didn’t like him but I thought he was rather good. He was educated in England. Do you know where it is? Eton College.
AP: Eton College.
BS: Yeah. Eton College. Yeah.
AP: Something else I found in your logbook is a map of Tripoli. There’s a, there’s a map Brian, in your logbook, of Tripoli and it has anti-aircraft guns marked and it’s got a big red thing that says “Secret.” Do you know anything about that? Brian. There’s a map in your logbook of Tripoli.
BS: Is there?
AP: Yeah. What, can you tell why? Why is Tripoli important?
BS: Tripoli?
AP: Yeah.
BS: That’s the target. Target sheet that is. We were given those to sit there when you’ve got sitting there like a bloody idiot watching where the bombs go.
AP: And can you also tell me about — it looks like a Slovenian or a Polish nickel. It looks like it’s a Slovenian or a Polish nickel. It’s got a photo of Essen in it. Do you know? It’s in your logbook. You were telling me. You were telling me earlier.
BS: As I told you Felicity was looking at these things. She never told me about that. She doesn’t realise that I can’t bloody well see.
AP: It’s unfortunate. There’s also, that looks like it’s an Italian one. So, can you tell me about a nickel raid? What a nickel raid was?
BS: About what?
AP: What was a nickel operation?
BS: A nickel was leaflets.
AP: Yeah.
BS: Leaflets there.
AP: Can you tell me about that?
BS: You’ve seen one in there have you?
AP: Yeah. I have.
BS: As I told you when you opened the bomb doors all those things used to float around. Be all over the bloody place. That was it. A nickel. That was, that was a slang name for a [unclear] out of the cabin.
AP: Cool. What’s this? That’s another map of Tripoli. Alright. Well I think we’ve come to the end of my questions. So thank you very much. Thanks very much Brian.
BS: Thank you. I’m sorry [unclear]
AP: No. You’ve, you’ve told me some good stories so that’s really cool. So I’m going to turn the microphone off now and I’ll go and get Felicity. Ok.
BS: Thank you. Yeah. I’m very pleased to see that someone’s around that’s still around looking into what goes on years ago.
AP: I wouldn’t end. I wouldn’t miss it for the world.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Brian Robert Southwell
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Purcell
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-09-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ASouthwellBR160903, PSouthwellBR1601
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:01:07 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Brian Robert Southwell was born in Sydney and lived during the Depression which saw him have to set aside his interest in aircraft in order to secure a steady wage with an office job. He spent eighteen months making a model aircraft with the support and practical help of the de Havilland aircraft company. He made friends with the son of the Swedish consul in Sydney who was an aircraft enthusiast and he was able to fly with him. When he was able to volunteer for the RAAF he began training as a pilot on Liberators. He was a member of a special squadron dropping supplies and partisans into occupied areas. He also took part in other bombing operations while stationed at RAF Derna in North Africa.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Michael Cheesbrough
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
Libya
Libya--Darnah
New South Wales--Sydney
North Africa
Libya--Banghāzī
New South Wales
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1945-05-05
aircrew
B-24
Fw 190
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Lichfield
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/PWebbLP1601.2.jpg
8d383cb13e5d542084f5bb97a0e790e4
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/PWebbLP1602.2.jpg
582edc8348383d4840c77d8fb850fd8d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/1189/11762/AWebbLP161024.1.mp3
cf99d1beff0f84f2291e3486524ef69e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Webb, Lacey Peter
L P Webb
Description
An account of the resource
17 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Lacey Peter Webb (1925 - 2017, Royal Air Force), service material, aircraft drills, engineering notes, photographs and propaganda leaflets. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 427 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Webb, LP
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DK: So, I just make sure it’s working. This is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Mr. Lacey Webb at his home on 24th of October 2016. It seems to be working. I’ll just leave that, just move that over there. If I just leave that, leave that there
LPW: Yeah.
DK: If I keep looking down, I’m only checking to make sure it’s still working. It’s ok. So, what I like to know is first of all, before joining the Royal Air Force, what were you doing?
LPW: I was assembling furniture.
DK: Ok.
LPW: In a factory in the local town.
DK: Ok and then, what made you then want to join the RAF?
LPW: Well, when you think, I was fourteen, I was actually fourteen and fourteen weeks old when the war started. So I was a, brainwashed really by the war, I mean, all my teenage life was interrupted by the war from thirteen when I used to read the papers and so forth and of course when the war started, I was fascinated by the bomber operations.
DK: Ok.
LPW: And as I grew old, as I, they became my heroes and I wanted to become a member of Bomber Command.
DK: Alright, so it wasn’t seeing the fighters in the Battle of Britain.
LPW: No, no, it’s. And then, when I got seventeen and three quarters, they called us up. We signed on, then, men they called us then and I went up to Norwich for my medical and then of course you have to state what you would like to force you to join I said the Air Force, aircrew, you did a little test, they took about thirty of us in the room and asked us how many beans make five, you know quite simple little questions. They sorted through quite a number actually and then I went to Cardington and I actually met an interesting chap on the way down the bus from Bedford station down to Cardington, chap sat next to me and he said he’s going down. He says he’s going for an aircrew medical but he wasn’t [unclear]. He was a meteorological officer and he was going for a medical and he said he was Bob Hope’s cousin, cause he said he came from Bath, I think, which is Bob Hope’s hometown I think. Anyway, we were
DK: Not many people realise Bob Hope was actually born in Britain do they.
LPW: Not really and anyway I done my thing there and I think there’s about sixty of us. When we went for our interview on the third morning, there were just four of us left. Amazing, I was amazed,
DK: So the others had all been
LPW: Failed, as soon as you failed you were gone.
DK: Thank you.
LPW: I think they were pretty ruthless about selection. And I went in and met the old boys, us three RAF and they all had their gold braid and they asked me what, you know, what I would like to be and I said, I’d like to be a pilot. Of course, they looked at my educational qualifications, they said, you’re not quite up to that, son, but they said there’s a new trade as flight engineer and you take the place of the second pilot. And that’s how I became to be a flight engineer.
DK: So what form did the training take after that then?
LPW: What, when I joined up?
DK; Yes, once you
LPW: Well, I went, cause we all went to Lord’s Cricket Ground when we were first called up. I think three weeks at St John’s Wood and my [unclear] at St John’s Wood, believe it or not, was in the honour guard for the Queen Mother, was the old Queen Mother, the Queen at the time she was visiting the YMCA at the aircrew reception centre. And that was a private house set back and what happened was that the NCO in charge of the squad had done a bit of drilling and so forth, he selected about forty blokes out of the hundred and twenty, more or less the same height, and cause we had our, hadn’t changed our uniform, so some of us were short blokes head, the great coat came down, half way down the thigh and the tall chaps, they [unclear] tall policemen, about seven or eight policemen, they came half way up the thigh, you know. And some had hats that, flapped round their heads. Anyhow these chaps who were in charge of the squad lined us odd bods outside on the road, to keep the crowds back, I suppose and the real squad, he took off somewhere until the Queen went into the YMCA, they was supposed to come and line the garden down to the road when she came out. Of course, they got lost somewhere in the maze and so they brought all us odd bods to perform the guard of honour as you would say. Well, I’m sure that when her Majesty walked past us and she looked at us, I’m sure she was smiling and she thought to myself, what an odd lot of bods it was.
DK: Couldn’t believe what she was seeing.
LPW: Yeah. You imagine, you know, all the different, because when they gave you, you all got the same thing, you know. But there you go.
DK: So once you’ve done your
LPW: Three weeks down there.
DK: You’ve done initial
LPW: I went to Bridlington for six weeks initial training and
DK: Was that most of your square bashing there, was it down at Bridlington?
LPW: Yeah, and then we done aircraft recognition and we pulled the Sten gun to pieces and put it together and all that sort of stuff. And then, at the beginning of January we went down to St Athans and that’s where the training started, you know.
DK: As a flight engineer.
LPW: Yeah. First of all, they explained to us what a nut was and what the washer was, you know, it completely started right from the scratch
DK: It was very basic stuff.
LPW: Terrific rarely when you think about it, I just found this book of mine which was, which I done my course on and you want to have a look at that, at this quite extensive really.
DK: So, just for the benefit of the recording here, I will sort of go through what’s in here so. So, it’s got the Hercules six, which is the engine. So, it’s all the power outputs for that type of engine, leading particulars, degree of supercharging, oh wow, that’s all the engine though and so it’s got diagrams of the cylinders and crank shaft.
LPW: Is everything is in there.
DK: So.
LPW: All the diagrams, they draw those.
DK: So, you had to draw these
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Engine oil pressure pumps
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Yeah. Oh wow.
LPW: I mean, when you look at that, we had a six months course, I know it wasn’t all on,
DK: Not just on the engine.
LPW: But they gave us two weeks to learn to pick up on a Lanc, completely different engine, airframe and everything
DK: So the work on the, the training on the Hercules was the assumption you could go on the Halifax.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So we got
LPW: We’d actually done [unclear] training in the last six months, really.
DK: So I got here Clarks viscosity valve
LPW: Six weeks.
DK: Do you remember the Clarks viscosity valve? [laughs]
LPW: Yeah. I just found that out this morning, I thought, I will have a look at it.
DK: This is, this is marvellous. You got a diagram inside the Halifax there which you’ve drawn
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Oh, wow.
LPW: Interesting, isn’t it?
DK: Yeah. One thing the centre is doing is they are making copies of things like this, I think this is something that they’d be really interested in. I’m gonna have a think about that, I could get it copied it for you and get it to the centre there. Very in depth, isn’t it? Hayward compressor, oil temperature gauge, oil pressure gauge, so, these are all diagrams that you
LPW: Yeah, we had to draw those, yeah.
DK: Oh, I know they’d be interested in this. Ok, so, I’ll just put that back down there. So, that’s your, so that was your training all at St Athans. So, how long did the training at St Athans last?
LPW: Six months.
DK: Six months. And then after that where did you, where were you posted to then?
LPW: Well, apart from one of us, I’m pretty certain that I was sent to [unclear] for about two hours and then they sent us to a different conversion unit.
DK: Right.
LPW: And I went to Topcliffe. Conversion unit. And I was there for about and that was where I joined the crew because the crew, originally, as you know, they’d done initial training the other six together. They come to heavy conversion, pick up the flight engineer, then we’d done about a month there.
DK: So that’s where you first met your crew then, at Topcliffe.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And they were all Canadian?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So they’d trained in Canada and then come over.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: I know it was quite normal that the Canadians didn’t seem to train flight engineers.
LPW: They didn’t. Well they, at the end of the war, I got my screening leave, went back, walked in the section, who should I see, the Canadian trained flight engineer.
DK: So they did towards the end of the war then.
LPW: But you know, the Canadians financed and serviced the whole group
DK: The 6 group.
LPW: I don’t think the British public ever realised that.
DK: So that was the first time you met your crew then. Did the pilot choose you or did you go up to them?
LPW: Well, we were in a room and certainly this chap, or two of them came and said, you’ve been recommended to us as a flight engineer and that was the pilot and navigator. And that’s how we met.
DK: And what was your impression when you first met the pilot and navigator?
LPW: Well, I thought, seem very competent, you know. They were chaps. I suppose the pilot was about twenty-six and the navigator was about twenty-eight.
DK: So they were quite a bit older then, weren’t they?
LPW: Yeah. I mean, from what the rest of the crew said, in the mess
DK: So this is the crew here, is it?
LPW: That’s the pilot and that’s the navigator.
DK: So, can you remember the pilot’s name?
LPW: Yeah, Phil Millard.
DK: Millard. And the navigator?
LPW: Cyrus Vance.
DK: Cyrus Vance.
LPW: Yeah. His name was Pigger Vance, he was American. Well, he went to America when he was three years old.
DK: Alright.
LPW: And his brother was shot down over Berlin.
DK: So that’s the navigator Cyrus Vance. And remember this one?
LPW: Yeah. Pigger Vance.
DK: Pigger Vance. Yeah.
LPW: Gordon Upwell, he was the wireless operator. That was me there.
DK:
LPW: John Nookes and Bill Smith. He was the mid upper and he was the rear gunner. Myself there and there and the same there.
DK: Alright.
LPW: And that was in my heyday there.
DK: So that’s you, so, so the pilot was Peter Webb?
LPW: No, pilot was Phil Millard.
DK: Oh, sorry. Sorry, I’m getting confused.
LPW: Yeah. Actually, they screened me. They’d done 34, I’d done 36. I had to screen them at the same time.
DK: So how many operations did you actually?
LPW: Actually, I did 32.
DK: Thirty-two.
LPW: Although the tour was thirty-five at the time. I think they threw the two trips in that we had to abort. They had plenty of aircrew at the time you see.
DK: So you then met at Topcliffe and where did you all move on to then? Is that when you joined the squadron?
LPW: No, we got posted to the famous Lion squadron, and, 427, at Leeming.
DK:427
LPW: At Leeming. One thing about my Air Force days. I always went to a sort of a modern camp, Topcliffe and Leeming were pre-war stations. And in St John’s Wood we went in a proper hotel in St John’s Wood and at St Athan a hut camp had all the modern facilities and never did go on a satellite. Some chaps had a hard time on satellite ‘dromes and Nissan huts and so forth.
DK: So the stations you were on weren’t all very well built.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Is that ok if I have a look at the logbook then? So looking through, so you did thirty two operations
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Starting off with the Halifax.
LPW: Yeah. Cap Gris Nez was my first one on the 27th of September. Is it still legible?
DK: Yeah, yeah, so, twenty, that’s daylight, isn’t it?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So, 28th of September?
LPW: 28, was it?
DK: Pilot was Millard. And the aircraft is ZLV. Cap Gris Nez
LPW: [unclear] Although we didn’t bomb, they called us off before we bombed.
DK: Ok. Just going through here then.
LPW: Yeah. What was the next one?
DK: Cross countries, sea searches there.
LPW: Yeah. On squadron
DK: Return from Bury St Edmunds. Oh, here we go, sorry, operations Dortmund.
LPW: Yeah. Was that the second one?
DK: Yeah, looks like it.
LPW: What was that one?
DK: That says cross country.
LPW: Oh, right. Yeah.
DK: So I think the second one here was I think the 6th of October.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: ’44.
PLW: Dortmund.
DK: Dortmund. And it says, thirteen hang ups. So, the bombs didn’t drop.
LPW: And the undercarriage didn’t come down when we came in to land, the pilot on the downward leg, he said, load was showing red red, what are you going to do, Peter? So I got my hacksaw out, the old training came in well, cut a little piece of copper wire and released the pressure, the oil from the piston and down came the
DK: And the undercarriage came down. So that was from the Dortmund operation, was it?
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So you were carrying thirteen hang up bombs and couldn’t get the undercarriage down.
LPW: As we had a little bit of trouble to take off. We got caught in the slipstream [unclear] plane ahead of us and that swung us off and the pilot overcorrected it. And went slowly across the intersection of the runways and even today, I can see people jumping down off aeroplanes to stand and watch, some on the wing of a plane jumping. When we got back, they said we just went over the bomb dump.
DK: So that was the Dortmund raid as well, was it? So next operation was the 9th of October and it’s Bochum and mentions fighter attack. Were you attacked?
LPW: Just think, I think the gunners saw something and they, the pilot went into a corkscrew.
DK: So the next one was an early return.
LPW; Yeah.
DK: And then Duisburg, which was a daylight, wasn’t it?
LPW: Yeah, Duisburg, twice in twenty four hours.
DK: So there was Duisburg, daylight,
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then Duisburg again [unclear]
LPW: Yeah, one Sunday morning, we got there just early, eight, ten o’clock time
DK: In fact, one of the veterans I interviewed last week, his name was Ray Park, 218 Squadron, he was on both the Duisburg raids.
LPW: Was he?
DK: Yeah, he mentioned that it was a daylight and then a night time [unclear] on that raid.
LPW: Yeah. Then we got back to bed, they got us out of bed again, to go to Stuttgart, but the pilot complained and they took us off the raid.
DK: So you should have done Stuttgart after that. Then on the 23rd of October, Essen.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then, 25th of October, Homburg.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And 2nd of November, Dusseldorf.
LPW: Yeah. A lot of training as well.
DK: Yeah. Not the cross country, it was a local flying
LPW: Yeah.
DK: Then you got, St. Vith here
LPW: St. Vith, yeah, Boxing Day.
DK: St. Vith.
LPW: Yeah. But, you know, when they, Ardennes, defence when the Germans broke through, we bombed the cross roads, Boxing Day.
DK: Yeah, so that was the 26th of October. You put here a note, excellent prangs.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that went well then.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that was in daylight as well then.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And then flak damage to ailerons.
LPW: Yeah. If we finished that, we had to go up to Russia, it tells you in there where we went to
DK: Alright.
LPW: We couldn’t land at Leeming it was fog, when we took off, that was down twenty feet, we got above, it was a lovely day once you got above
DK: So then you got Ludwigshafen.
LPW: Ludwigshafen. Mannheim and Ludwigshafen. One either side of the river.
DK: Yeah. So here, 6th of January 1945, mentions that you blew a tyre on the end of the runway.
LPW: Yeah. That was a day of disaster, really was [unclear] somewhere. Daylight raid? We were the spare crew and suddenly I said, off you go and off we went. Turned, just as we turned on the runway, the tyre burst. Now, the golden rule about turning the plane, you never clamp the inside of the wheel tight because you grind, hold it and the wires that reinforce the tyre break. And will allow and the pressure comes on the tyre. And your [unclear] bursts and we got into the spare plane and the time we got there we were about five minutes late of the end of the raid. The pilot said we carry on here and the Lanc formed up on the side of us about hundred yards, level with us. I often wondered about this and we were about and on the bomb run and suddenly this Lanc blew up, it’s a Pathfinder, all the different flares caught fire, just [unclear] and after seeing you know the Dam Busters film, where Gibson after he dropped his bombs, he flew down beside the other to take the flak away from the, I often wonder if that chap would have done the same for us, you don’t know do you. On the way back we were, half and half on our way there was a terrific thump. Someone said, what was that? And the rear gunner, he said, that was a Jerry fighter, this Jerry fighter went just over the top of us, and that was the air pressure gave us a terrific thump, so that was the day of, could have been.
DK: So that was all on the 6th of January 1945.
LPW: Yeah. Could have been a day of horrors, couldn’t it?
DK: So originally on aircraft W, blew the tyre at the end of the runway and changed to L.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: And bombed five minutes late. [file missing]
So, David Kavanagh again. 24th of October 2016 interviewing Mr. Lacey Webb at his home. This is the second of two, working ok. So, just going back to your logbook. As you say, you did thirty two operations then.
LPW: Two aborted.
DK: Aborted.
LPW: One just after we got off the deck. One trip. Is in there somewhere. You went up the North Sea, designated area, and dropped the bombs. By the time we dropped the bombs and used up the fuel, we were, had the right amount of weight down for landing.
DK: Got one here. Operation to Magdeburg.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So that was the sixteenth of January 1945.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: This is number four tank, port stuck, number four tank cocks [unclear]
LPW: What happened done all my pre-flight checks, you’d operate all the fuel cocks and everything you know and the fuel cock on number four was stuck, couldn’t move it and as it happened the OIC (Officer in Command), the warrant officer OIC, the flight, was actually in our dispersal. And he personally got up on the wing and eased this cock, made it work, that’s the one we took off on. Turned it off, we were always given a fuel system before we took off, when we, you know, the golden rule was one tank, one engine, in danger areas like take off, landings and so forth and the target area. Went to turn it on, won’t move. So we were then there’s a hundred and thirty gallons left in there and spare overload is always a hundred and twenty five extra in case of emergencies. So then I had to work a system where we were, a hundred and thirty gallons, that was locked away and then we worked on another system and kept the engine revs and boost pressure down so we just got enough to get back.
DK: And then it says you jettison two clusters east of Hanover, among searchlights.
LPW: Yeah. We had two hang ups and we stirred a hornet’s nest as soon as we dropped, we got predictable flak.
DK: So you’re still flying the Halifax then into 1945.
LPW: Yeah. At Magdeburg, I remember now, looking over the edge of the thing, I said to the pilot, oh, look all those little lights down there. And cause we had, we were loaded with incendiaries, he said, what they are Peter are houses on fire. Rows and rows and rows of them.
DK: And I got, first of February, Halifax U and then ops to Mainz.
LPW: Yeah, Mainz. Yes.
DK: Mainz. And it says, terrible weather on return journey.
LPW: Yeah. They had a little electric fire [unclear].
DK: We got one here that was abandoned. It’s 17th of February, ops to Wesel. Called off by master bomber.
LPW: Yeah. They were fantastic people these master bombers, cool as cucumbers.
DK: So what was the role of the master bomber then?
LPW: They were to tell you what bombs to, you know, new TI’s (target indicators) go down, which to bomb and so forth and I was watching a film the other day called Appointment in London about a bomber crew and well, with Dirk Bogarde took over the master bombers role and obviously [unclear] and that bomber command, that master bomber was given instructions [unclear] and always on one raid. The master bomber was issuing instructions very quiet, you know, controlled. And suddenly he said, I think they used to call themselves Tarpat, Tarpat 1 to Tarpat 2, he said, we’ve been hit, he said, take over, Tarpat 1 to Tarpat 2 take over, Tarpat, I just can’t as if they might have crashed or exploded or something. Very tragic at the time. But they were really wonderful blokes, these master bombers
DK: Can you remember which particular raid that was?
LPW: Not really, no.
DK: No. Very tragic.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So now you’re all of the raids that were into Germany, weren’t they?
LPW: Yeah. Cause the tragic thing was when you’re over the target, planes are getting hit by other plane’s bombs. You know, I mean, navigation was a perfect art, you’re all, you know, converging on the target, some overshoot the turning point by a minute that’s three miles at a hundred and eighty. We used a hundred and sixty, I think, on the run in.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: And then if you turn early and I mean early so when you come to target you’re all sort of coming and we had a plane just below us, used to bomb in two hundred foot layers and the bomber he said watch out for [unclear], you know, he said, I can see him, I can see him, he says, watch him, watch him, and of course when he let his bombs, you know the trim of the plane you actually lift up and our bombs went the same time as the other bloke, cause he came up and we came up and [unclear] and sideslip away. It wasn’t until we finished the tour on to that night and we went in the mess and had a bit of a booze up with another crew who just finished, that turned out that was their plane.
DK: So you were from the same squadron then.
LPW: Cause that was the only thing about, we were both same squadron, the same hut, the same time, you see, different levels.
DK: At night, could you see much of the other aircraft, normally?
LPW: Not much, you could feel them.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: When you’re doing dog-legging, that’s a dangerous time again, lots of, they always reckon they allowed for least one crash but if you’re early, cause the, the weather forecast is never accurate, couldn’t be accurate the, you know, the speed, wind speed and the direction was never a hundred percent accurate so, if they got the wind speed and direction, if you were early, get all bombers certain time, it would dog leg. You know minute, minute to do a minute and you did minute the other way and when you start dog-legging, cause all the other people had done the same, they all believed of course of the weather forecast, so suddenly you can feel the slipstream of another plane and you know, never see them.
DK: So just go stepping back a little bit. What was your role then as a flight engineer, if you take a normal operation?
LPW: Well, you were then responsible for all the mechanical and electric drives, and make sure everything, all your tests and so forth, but you assist the pilot in take-off and landing. Until he gets the wheel up, only the throttles would control the direction the plane but as soon as he gets the wheel up, then he can the rudders and will control direction and then you take and open the throttles up and that’s what it’s all about. And other than that and the Halifax, the main job was the fuel system, six six tanks in the wing, you know, and two engines, all different and we had a little computer and it gave all the different heights and engine settings at different speeds and all that in little [unclear] places and then you turned these things round and so you know that you’re using point nine eight gallons per engine for so many minutes, you calculate that on the fuel and so you know exactly how much fuel you got in each tank and when to turn them off, that sort of thing, that’s what the flight engineer is, mainly was.
DK: So, I noticed here towards the end of February, 23rd of February you were then on Lancasters.
LPW: Yeah, we then converted on Lancs, yeah.
DK: So, actually it was a mix, wasn’t it, cause 23rd of February on Lancasters but 24th of February back flying on Halifax.
LPW: Oh yeah, possibly, yeah.
DK: So it was check out on the Lancasters, local flight to a place, to Dortmund and 24th was back on a Halifax. So what was your impressions then of the Halifax against the Lancasters?
LPW: Completely different planes altogether. Halifax, we loved the Halifax, I had my own panel on the Halifax. The pilot sat here, an armour plate behind him, behind the pilot but I had a panel with all those gauges and that on. On the Lanc, you sat beside the pilot but my feeling about the Lanc was claustrophobic to me, very narrow, and all cramped up and we didn’t like it. But of course we were Halifax men but it was a marvellous plane.
DK: Yeah.
LPW: Wasn’t it?
DK: Yeah.
LPW: I mean, the amount of weight they carried and the distance they went, nothing else was touching it.
DK: So, can you remember how many operations you did on each?
LPW: That’s a little bit wrong there.
DK: Cause it’s got here twenty eight ops on Halifaxes and four on Lancs
LPW: yeah, that’s actually should have been thirty and two.
DK: So, thirty on Halifaxes and two on Lancasters.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: So your last operation then, let’s just have a look, is on, it’s a Lancaster then, Lancaster U,
LPW: 20th
DK: 20th of March 1945.
LPW: Yeah. That’s just the day before they crossed the Rhine I think.
DK: Right, and that was to Hemmingstedt.
LPW: Right. In Sweden. No, Denmark, not Sweden, Denmark.
DK: To the south Danish border. And you put here, very excellent prang.
LPW: We were then excellent you see [laughs].
DK: And it says here first back and first to land. So, after your operations then, what did you go on to do then?
LPW: Well, we got a ten-week screening leave and then back to the squadron and two day I was posted to Catterick, that was an aircrew assessment centre, reassessment and well, all aircrew went to assess what they could do on the ground and we were there for three days. I did get down to football with their station team and they sent me home on indefinite leave and I was at home on D-Day, V-E Day and I think on the 13th of May I was posted to the Isle of Man as a UT (under training) flying control assistant and that’s where, that was a navigation school on Isle of Man and we were there till the June of ‘46 and we came back to Topcliffe where I’d done my conversion unit as, cause a Canadian [unclear] took over Topcliffe as a navigation school.
DK: And but at that point did the rest of your crew had they been sent back
LPW: Oh yeah, sent back. I mean, they, in the three days I had come back off leave, the rear gunner told me they’d already gone except him, all the squadron, back.
DK: So, when did you actually leave the RAF then?
LPW: Don’t know, I think February ’47, I think.
DK: And did you go back to the furniture making?
LPW: No. That was my
DK: So Sergeant L P Webb from first of November ‘43 to 12th of March 1947 and [unclear] he was employed largely on clerical work, discharged duties exceptional manner.
LPW: Yeah.
DK: [unclear] duties, carried them out very satisfactory by the squadron leader, so that is dated 7th March 1947.
LPW: And it cost me a three drinks to get him to write that
DK: [laughs]
LPW: Cause you know, they demoted us as aircrew.
DK: So what
LPW: Did you know they demoted all aircrew?
DK: So, what rank were you when you were in aircrew then?
LPW: I reached the dizzy rank of warrant officer. I got my crown after nine, what the hell I got it for I never did know. You automatically got your crown after nine months, twelve months, you see. My past date on the end of July ’44 gave me three stripes and suddenly when I got to the Isle of Man, I was called up in front of the CO, he, I’ve only been there a day, he said, you’re improperly dressed, sergeant, he said, you are actually a flight sergeant, and in that time I was home on indefinite leave, I’d been promoted to flight sergeant. So I had, and now I had three months as a warrant officer and next time it was a twelve weekend and then they demoted all aircrew to sergeant and some of them. If I just stopped in another six months, I would have been demoted to my ground rank, which would have been aircraftsman second class, flying control assistant UT. If I had been in the ground staff the time I went in, I’d had been at least an aircraftsman first class and maybe an LAC leading aircraftsman, that was the unfair part of it all.
DK: It was very unfair, isn’t it?
LPW: Yeah, but I think some chaps I met who, I mean, quite a few had done two tours of ops, in the heavy in the early days when there was, I mean they had no chance of finding the target in the first two years of the war because there was none of these electronic gadgets and then there was days when they were bombing Berlin and the Ruhr and so forth, you know, when they took the heavy toll on them. I met these chaps, one booked on three tours, he’d been a warrant officer for about three years, he signed on for a little extra time, he couldn’t tear himself away from the Air Force, got demoted to sergeant, you know, pretty tough one.
DK: So what was your career then after you came out of the Air Force?
LPW: I then, I don’t know whether it was psychological but I thought I’d like to get into the building trade. So, I took the course on brick-laying and worked for a local firm, went and worked for a big firm in Norwich.
DK: Did you sort of think that at the end of the war you wanted to do something constructive rather than destructive?
LPW: Yeah, I think so. I don’t know whether it was psychological or what it was, you know, I had been part of a destructive force, and
DK: So, how do you look back now on you period in Bomber Command?
LPW: I thought is marvellous. I thought that was a really great time, to tell you the truth.
DK: Did you manage to stay in touch with any of your crews at all?
LPW: Yeah. Yeah, the bomb aimer, I’ve been over to Canada two or three times, to stay with them and I’ve been over to see us, he passed away now.
DK: Which one was the bomb aimer?
LPW: Not the bomb aimer, the wireless operator.
DK: The wireless operator. What was his name?
LPW: Gordon, Gordon Upwell. Ever such a nice chap he was. Ever such a quiet speaking fellow.
DK: So you actually went out to Canada to meet up with him. And did you stay in touch with any of the other?
LPW: No.
DK: Ok. I think that’s probably enough, we have probably spoken more than enough, but thanks very much for that. I’ll turn the recorder off.
LPW: [unclear] Period really.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Lacey Peter Webb
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
David Kavanagh
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AWebbLP161024, PWebbLP1601, PWebbLP1602
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:45:50 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Peter Schulze
Michael Cheesbrough
Description
An account of the resource
Lacey Peter Webb remembers his role as a flight engineer in the Royal Air Force during the war and flying thirty operations on Halifaxes and two on Lancasters. Retraces his training in various stations, among them St John’s Wood, where he was selected to the be part of the Queen’s guard of honour. Tells of the selection process and the crewing up. Remembers when, on the way back from an operation over Dortmund, they couldn’t lower the undercarriage. Discusses the role of the master bomber. Explains the difficulties in coordinating bomb drops among aircraft of the same squadron when approaching the target. Tells of his life after war and how the entire crew was demoted.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Duisburg
Germany--Magdeburg
Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate)
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-11
1945-01-06
1945-01-16
1945-03-20
427 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
crewing up
flight engineer
Halifax
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
RAF Leeming
RAF St Athan
RAF Topcliffe
training