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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/171/2319/AtkinsAH1501.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/171/2319/AAtkinsA151121.1.mp3
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Title
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Atkins, Arthur
A H Atkins
Description
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24 items. An oral history interview with Arthur Atkins DFC (d. 2022, Royal Australian Air Force), his logbook and 23 photographs. Arthur Atkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia and joined the RAAF. After training he flew 32 operations as a pilot with 625 Squadron from RAF Kelstern.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Arthur Atkins and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-01-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Atkins, A
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Pending additional content
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: So this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive is with Arthur Atkins, a 625 squadron Lancaster pilot during the Second World War. The interview is taking place at Arthur’s house in Kew in Melbourne. My name’s Adam Purcell. It’s the 21st of November 2015. Arthur we’ll start from the beginning if you don’t mind.
AA: Right.
AP: Tell us something of your early life, what you were doing growing up, and what you did before the war.
AA: Yeah well I was born at 212 Prospect Hill Road in, Prospect Hill Road oh what was the suburb? Surrey Hills, Surrey Hills. Then we moved to Canterbury when I was about eight or nine and I attended the Canterbury state school up to grade six. Then the equivalent of grade seven I started Scotch College. I was there for six years and I mainly concentrated on business subjects because that’s what I thought I would be going into and I did. I worked in an insurance company for about three or four years. I didn’t do any flying then but I, when I was a small boy and I was in the Cubs, you know, the junior Boy Scouts, they, one Saturday afternoon, we went down to the old airfield on Coode Island and I had my first flight in an aeroplane at about the age of nine, I should think. Eight or nine. Two cubs in the one cockpit. I don’t know who sat on whose knee. I can’t remember that but we were both in the cockpit half standing looking out over each side I should imagine but that was my first experience of flying and then I entered the Sun News Pictorial’s competition for someone most likely to fly, be able to fly an aeroplane and they’d get a free instruction to pilot licence but I didn’t, I didn’t win. There was, I think there was about a hundred people went for it and I was just one of them. I flew the aeroplane, an old Avro Avian I think it was. Single engine thing. I flew it for a little while because I’d flown model planes a lot and I knew exactly what it should do. I thought I did alright but no, I didn’t win it but then in my last year at Scotch I went in, tried to get in to the Point Cook pilot’s training system. I think there was about twenty vacancies or something and I think there was about two thousand people volunteered for it so I didn’t get that one either. However, when the war broke out I got in to the army militia I think in the middle of 1944. Well, that was alright. I didn’t mind it. September ‘44 it was and I had three months. September, October, November. I decided I’d get out so one day when I was on leave I called in to the recruiting office in Russell Street, for the Air Force that is, and they immediately signed me up. Gave me a piece of paper showing that I was a member of the RAAF and my rank was AC2. Aircraftman class 2. And then I had to attend about three times a week at various places to fit me for going into the initial training school. Mathematics and so on. Anyway, I got in and I, that was in nineteen, but the thing was going on to the reserve where I had to do these exercises and so on, lectures, about a fortnight before Pearl Harbour. This. About two weeks before that and the date of that is, December the 7th. I think it was about November the 20th or something that I enlisted in the Air Force. Just as well because I wouldn’t have been able to get out of the, the army as easily as I did and I was unfortunately of course it was mid-winter at Somers. Coldest place I’ve been in my life and some people used to wear their pyjamas under everything else because they only gave us very sort of flimsy one-piece overalls to wear in the midwinter at Somers. By September things were looking up a bit and I finished the course then and they called me in to tell me where I’d be going to next as everyone had depending on your results and they said, ‘We want to make you a navigator,’ because I was very good at mathematics at that stage and I was also a qualified accountant at that stage but I said, ‘No. I don’t want to be a navigator. I want to fly the aeroplanes. Thanks.’ And they said, ‘Well, you came top of your course.’ Course number 28 at Somers. ‘So you actually have a choice of what you’re going to do.’ They didn’t tell me that at first. Only when I objected to being a navigator. And they said well seeing you came top you can choose to train as a pilot and I went up to Benalla and flew Tiger Moths. I was there for two or three months. It’s all there in the logbook but Benalla was good fun flying the Tigers. I never broke one or landed one badly or anything like that and I came out of that alright and they sent me then after about three months, around about Christmastime ’44, ‘44 I suppose it would have been. No, no, would have been Christmas, Christmas ‘43 because I got to England in, in ‘43. Yeah, it would have been ’42. Yeah. Christmas ‘42 would have been the date I finished at Benalla and went to Mallala, South Australia about forty miles north of Adelaide. Looked like the desert and felt like it. I think it was a hundred and eight degrees for three or four days on one occasion and the beds inside the iron huts were that hot you couldn’t sit on the iron bedsteads because they were too hot to be comfortable. But anyway that was, it was quite good. I was there for, until about April or May. Mallala, South Australia, yeah, I’ll put my glasses on. I can read what I’ve written. Yeah. Yeah so I left Mallala on the, in April ‘43 and went to Ascot Vale showgrounds and I was there, only there for two or three weeks with, and fortunately I had a friend I was with, a fella named David Browne and we used to just wander around the city for a while doing nothing just waiting for something to happen and then finally in May, about the middle of April, 25th of April I was sent to Point Cook to do a course on blind approach. That is flying the beam in to land and had quite a bit of other, other work too. In fact, for about ten days I was in charge of the control tower at Point Cook. Not that any accidents ever happened so I wasn’t tested there. I just looked out the window and talked to the, the blokes from the fire cart and the ambulance from down below the control tower and I remember saying, ‘What happens if something goes wrong? What am I supposed to do?’ They said, ‘Send a signal.’ ‘Signal?’ I said. ‘What’s a signal?’ Apparently they meant send some sort of a telegram to, to someone or other. The boss of the group, of that particular group. Anyway, that only lasted a little while and then I was on flying there on Oxfords. Airspeed Oxfords. Mostly under the hood, you know, blind flying on the beam. After that I went to Bradfield Park in Sydney just prior to catching a boat to San Francisco and they put us on a, an American, converted to troopship so a small, sort of, it had been a coastal [trader] I think or something like that. Proper steam steamship called the Mount Vernon which was something to do with George Washington’s home town or something like that and we headed out across towards New Zealand. I was seasick but my friend David Browne wasn’t. I was a bit envious of him. He could still eat these rather sickly, sickly looking thick drinks that he used to get from the canteen while I was chuntering out over the rail. And we got in, finally we got in to New Zealand on the North Island. Auckland. And that was quite interesting. We got off the ship. We were allowed to stay to see New Zealand in four hours so we did that and two or three, there was a group of two or three of us just walking along in Auckland somewhere and we got picked up by a couple of girls who said, ‘Come home and have dinner with us.’ You know, and being generous to the troops so we followed them and went home and spoke to all their family and had a very nice dinner, the three of us, for nothing, you know, just because we happened to be in navy blue uniforms and the New Zealanders had the grey blue uniform of the RAF. But a funny thing happened. While we were just lolling around after dinner the fiancé or boyfriend of one of the girls arrived at the front door and everyone was a little bit embarrassed about that, picking up strange troops, you know, foreign troops, on in the street. So we said, ‘Oh well, we’re off now anyway. Thank you very much,’ we went back to the boat but the bloke who came to the front door was wearing a New Zealand Air Force uniform. He’d been on some island, I think, just north of New Zealand somewhere on duty and he’d just got some leave to come back to Auckland. Anyway, we got back on the boat and then the next thing we knew we’d, we were pulling into San Francisco harbour and sailing under the Golden Gate Bridge escorted in the last part of the trip to there by a blimp and we also saw a submarine. And there was a bloke working on a ship unloading it or loading it. An American ship alongside where we were and a couple of blokes sang out to him, ‘What are you doing sport?’ or something like that. He said, ‘Go home limey.’ [laughs] He thought we were British. He’d probably never heard of Australia. And while we were, we had about a month in America which was one of the most delightful times of my whole life because the Americans were very generous at handing out food, lifts here and there. We went down to New York on one occasion and we had a weekend in New York, in New York in 1943 which not many people from Australia ever experienced. And up, up the, up all the skyscrapers, the Empire State, and we went around to the theatre where the Rockets were dancing around the stage, about a dozen of them, high kicking on the stage. That that was sort of interesting. But then we, we found out that we could go in to any of the night clubs and just have a drink at the bar, and pay for it but you couldn’t sit down. You didn’t have to pay fifty dollars like the Yanks had to, to go in and sit down at a table. We could just go in and stand at the, at the bar and have a drink and watch what was going on and at one stage we were in the Astor Roof Nightclub and the band leader who was Harry, someone or other. Betty Grable, his girlfriend or wife, was sitting in the front row near the band. We were in the table a bit further back. We’d been, we were standing at the bar, a couple of friends and myself, air force people, and this bloke came over and said, ‘Would you like to sit at our table.’ I think there must have been just the two of us by that stage. One of them had gone off somewhere else and I said, ‘Yeah, that’s alright,’ and he sat us down at a table. He had his wife and two women. Married women probably. And we made up a nice party of six people all at his expense. Very good. Then we went back to his hotel afterwards and had a few whiskies I think, if I remember rightly. But that was how the Americans were with us. They asked some funny questions like, ‘Where did you learn to speak English?’ at times. I think they thought we came from Austria or something. Confused Austria with Australia. So, they didn’t know much about Australia, the Americans but we had, in New York, we had all the, comforts like free food, free breakfasts and so on that they had. Then a little later we got on to the Queen Elizabeth which was to take us to England or Scotland actually and it set off and I think there was a half a dozen of us together got into the, into the cabin which was allocated to us. Seven of us got into the cabin but there were only four, four, four bunks in it but fortunately I was one of the early ones getting in. I got one of the bunks. The last man in got the floor. Four days. The Queen Elizabeth mark one it was of course at that stage zigzagged all the way across the Pacific, the, sorry, the Atlantic to Scotland, one way, alternate turning movements you know with not all exactly the same but, so that was to fool any submarines that were watching and I think they, they said the speed they were doing at one stage was forty knots, the Queen Elizabeth. Well that’s about what forty five miles an hour or something like that. Not bad for a big boat like that. Anyway, nothing happened to us. We didn’t even see any submarines. Oh but yes that boat we travelled to in New Zealand and San Francisco on got sunk about three trips later by a Japanese torpedo so I’m lucky to be here. Anyway, the boat pulled in and then we went down to Brighton on the train. The same day the boat pulled in in the morning we got, all climbed on a train and went straight to Brighton in Sussex on the south coast. That was a beautiful time too. I liked Brighton. I could have stayed there for years but they only left us there for weeks and sent us to an RAF station at Andover. There wasn’t much flying going on there. I didn’t notice any. We were only there for, what, a couple of weeks doing ground subjects. Learning the way the RAF worked but the one thing I did notice we had a very nice room to sleep in and we had, we were all sergeants then by the way. The RAF conditions were way and above anything the Australian Air Force had ever thought of and you know we had people to clean the huts, sweep the floors out, make the beds and it was just like officers would have got in Australia if they were lucky and then and weren’t living in New Guinea or something like that but that was okay and then the next move was to Greenham Common where we were once again flying Airspeed Oxfords and an interesting thing happened the first day we were there. We got there in the afternoon and a couple of us, a couple of other fellas and myself walked out across the airfield the airfield a bit. Down one end of it where they, and they weren’t flying at the time we walked there. Must have been late in the afternoon. Anyway, we got to the runway and there was a big black patch about fifty or sixty feet across and we went and had a look at the black patch and we could see someone’s braces ends here and a bit of red meat there and so on. Someone had crashed an Oxford the night before and had burned out and they hadn’t scraped everything off the runway. They’d got most of him but they probably put a few bricks in the coffin because I was detailed because my name started with A and I was just taken off the top of the list and told, ‘You’re going to carry this coffin and load it on the train this morning.’ And that was my introduction to RAF flying, carrying what remained of the pilot to the local railway station where we shoved it into the guards van and said, ‘Goodbye Sport,’ and that was it. After that there was no accidents that I can remember at Greenham Common. We were flying, practicing flying on Oxfords and I got a, above average rating for flying Oxfords there because I’d had all that practice flying them at Point Cook. A bit unfair but I didn’t knock it back but then we went to a little place from Greenham to an airfield called Long Newnton. Long Newnton N E W N T O N. A pilots’ advanced flying unit. Well so was Greenham Common. That was 15 PAFU. They moved out, moved them all out because the Americans wanted somewhere to land, to store their invasion gliders so they shifted us from Greenham Common to Long Newnton and I remember we all got loaded into a bus or train or something and got out at the local station or was dumped off at the airfield at Long Newnton. Of course we didn’t hang around there. We thought we’d wander down and have a beer at the local pub. It wasn’t very far from the airfield. We walked in to the pub in the Cotswolds it was. The Cotswolds. And as we, we went into the bar and there was a couple of blokes in there. They must have been farmers. They were wearing just ordinary clothes which was a bit unusual in England at that time to find ordinary civilians in odd little clubs, they were mostly in uniform of some sort. And one of them said to me, ‘What do you think of the Cotswolds?’ I said, ‘Cotswolds? Is that where we are?’ And we were in the Cotswolds. I’d heard of them of course. I knew almost as much about the geography of England as I did of Victoria because I’d, you know, been buying books when I was a kid. All English comics and so on and a book called “Modern Boy” or something which consisted mostly of aeroplanes and steam trains and so on and we found it was quite a pleasant place, Long Newnton and we just continued to fly our Airspeed Oxfords there and train on them but we had one bad experience. We had to do night flying. Night, night cross-countries. A triangular course. You’d fly north, then northwest, then south west and bring yourself back to the, to the base. Navigating in the dark. Just flying on instruments and if you missed, missed one of the beacons, they had beacons were flashing lights like A for one of, one of the turning points and perhaps F or something for the next turning points. You had to know your Morse code so you knew where you were and then you knew where you were and one of our blokes didn’t come back. You know, it was all at night. Black as night. And England was black as pitch most of the places except for the odd airfields and the beacons, air force beacons like that. I think they were red but I can’t quite remember. There were two types. There was red beacons and white beacons and we were flying on the, I think the red beacons but he didn’t come back and we were just waiting around. Waited around for about another hour or so and someone came out and said, ‘You can all go home now. We’re cancelling the, the, the rest of the exercise tonight. That bloke’s crashed his Oxford and killed himself and we won’t be doing any more flying tonight.’ But it didn’t stop all the flying the next day. But after we’d spent a fair bit of time flying Oxfords we were put on to Wellingtons at um where was it? Lichfield, in the Midlands. 27 OTU. We never flew them. They, some, they split this particular group I was in into two parts. One of them, one part stayed at Lichfield and did all the practising on Wellingtons and the rest and the other half of the group did the Wellington flying at a place called Church Broughton. Church Broughton. And that was where I had my experience with one engine and when we were doing practicing circuits and bumps on approaches on one engine. Then you’d fire both of them up together and not actually land. Just practicing flying around on the one engine on the port engine. The starboard engine was, let me see, no, I think we had to, yeah, we had to power off on the port engine and just use the starboard engine for getting around. On the Wellington you weren’t supposed to fly against the good engine because, I don’t know, there was some reason for it. The Wellington didn’t have enough spare [?] in it to just fly very well on one engine and if you flew against the good engine you could be giving yourself a bit of bother. You mightn’t be able to control it. So, when the starboard engine went out and I was doing a left hand circuit as usual I didn’t quite know what to do and because, according to the rules we should have done a very big circuit around to starboard and landed and done a clockwise circuit. It was always anti-clockwise normal landing circuits in the RAF except on special occasions when the airfield mightn’t have suited a clock, an anti-clockwise approach. After that, well I was on Halifaxes. Halifaxes. Yeah, I haven’t got a picture of one of those here. They, they were quite good. We were flying Halifaxes for a month and, oh yes because I, with this engine off getting back to the Wellington with the crook starboard engine it was still giving some half power but there were sparks and things and black smoke coming out the back of it from somewhere and it had it there. We knew the engine had had it but I just, because it was giving us a little bit of power, I kept going on the anti-clockwise circuit and landed. Did a quite good landing too. Smooth landing but when we came to a stop on the runway and I tried to fire the engines up to taxi back to our parking spot I couldn’t do that. It just kept going around in circuits on the, on the good engine so we had to, we were all fitted with radio of course so I called up the control tower and said, ‘Send us out a tractor. You’re going to have to drag us in. We can’t taxi,’ and I got into trouble for not bailing the crew out which I’d never heard of them doing just because they had lost an engine and what else didn’t I do right? Oh I should have feathered the, feathered the propeller on the starboard engine. All good experience and I said, ‘Well it was still giving me a bit of power so I used it to pull us around into, into the landing, landing position.’ They said, ‘Oh that’s no good. You should have, you should have bailed the crew out and feathered the engine.’ Well I’d never had those instructions. I didn’t argue after that because he was, Australian he was the flight commander. He was a sour puss, I noticed, always. He got sourer than ever when I came back next day and he found the engine had to be changed but at least he didn’t have to change the bloody Wellington and he didn’t have to change the crew. They, we wouldn’t if I had bailed them out by the time they all got out I don’t think all their parachutes would have held them, held them up off, would have opened quickly enough to save them but that didn’t oh worry him. He just didn’t like, didn’t like the rest of us I think for coming in safely and not feathering one engine but I’ve read a lot of stories about Wellingtons trying to land on one engine and about fifty percent of them crashed and killed the crew. It’s probably through the wrong engine going or something like that. I don’t know. Anyway, after that we were on the Halifaxes. They were alright but we had a few worrying moments. The Halifax had four engines of course and there were a lot of Halifax squadrons flying at that time but they were mostly flying on the radial engine Halifaxes. What, we were training on the ones that had been rejected for operations and had the old early model Merlin V12 engines, you know and they had various faults. The Halifax used to have a bad habit of swinging to the left when you landed it. I was warned about that. Then I found out afterwards that they ran out of brakes. If you did, if you did a fair bit of taxiing you found you couldn’t, your brakes had ran out of air or vacuum or something. I don’t know whether they were vacuum brakes or air brakes but the brakes didn’t work if you’d run out of certain, certain distance. Anyway, the first landing I did in a Halifax, they were still using it for bombing here and there, the first landing I did in a Halifax I did a very smooth landing. I always did smooth landings and I was very pleased with myself. We just coasted down the runway just about, you know, ready to turn off in a cross runway and back to the parking area and suddenly the Halifax, I was quite relaxed, suddenly it swung around to the left like I’d been warned about, ‘Don’t let it swing on you.’ Well, I took that with a grain of salt and didn’t take a great deal of notice but fortunately, the, er the instructor who’d actually had done a couple of circuits with me on this practising single engine flying had got out and he wasn’t watching us. He saw us come in to land and he thought that was very good, got on his bike and rode off to the mess and then by the time the, the Halifax swung around to the left and did a circle, a half a circle on the grass he was in the mess on his pushbike, with his pushbike and no one in the control tower said a word to us about it afterwards. Anyway, it swung so far we went down the runaway and swung right around and was facing the way we came, on the grass. It swung to the left. The, I think the Lancasters had a, a tendency to swing to the right. You had to, when you, when you flew a Lancaster with the four throttles in your hand you had to push one further forward to, to stop the thing turning or running off the runway. When you were taking off that was. They were alright when you were landing her but they had a little tendency when you put the full power on to go one way or the other so you had the four throttles in one hand. You pushed one throttle ahead of the other. I don’t know whether it was the little finger or the first finger. I think the Lancaster tended to swing to the right. Well if it did you’d have to put a bit more power on the, on the outer, starboard outer engine to prevent that swing. But anyway, I, I just taxied the Halifax which was on the grass facing the way we’d come in, taxied on, got it back on the runway, took it down to where we parked it, got the truck back to the or our bikes probably at that stage, bikes back to the mess and nothing was said by anyone. Not even flying control. They hadn’t seen it and the instructor hadn’t seen it so we didn’t say anything to anyone about it but it was good experience though and I never did it again. I landed Halifaxes practically every day for the next month but I never swung off the runway again. I was watching it. You couldn’t relax until the thing had stopped, stopped rolling at your, at your parking spot. Then we went to a place called, I was commissioned by that time. I, I started off as a flight sergeant at, on the Halifaxes at, at Blyton which is in Lincolnshire and I was a sergeant pilot for a couple of weeks and then I was, I went to London and got my uniform as a pilot officer and lived in the officers’ mess which was not, nothing very special but it was better than, better than the sergeants’ mess but not much. Not much better but I liked that and I didn’t have to hand in my old uniform either. I’ve still got it. I think it’s in a trunk upstairs in the roof, roof space with a couple of officers’ uniforms. But I did alright with Halifaxes and the next move was to Lancasters at what was known as Number 1 Lancaster Finishing School at, at, Hemswell, Hemswell in Lincolnshire and we had about a fortnight there I think at Hemswell and then we were given a bit of a run-around at various holding units for a couple of days until we were, we’d finished our ten-day course at at Hemswell. Eleven days to be precise. Number 1 Lancaster Finishing School. No problems there at all. I’d had my problems with the Halifax and the Wellington. Hemswell was a piece of cake until we got to our operational station called erm Kelstern. I should remember that. It’s on the front of the house. Kelstern. And we were immediately given leave to go to London. You know, they probably had their hands full at the time. It was a busy station so we had a week in London on leave. Of course all this other stuff we had, weeks in London or the countryside and I went, used to get a ticket to Scotland, the northernmost railway station in Scotland so I could go anywhere between Lincolnshire or wherever I was. I wasn’t necessarily even in Lincolnshire. I could have been in the Midlands and I would just get a train. I think it was third class while I was a sergeant and first class when I was a pilot officer but I normally travelled third class because I found there were more interesting people to talk to in third class than in first class on those trains. And, um where was I? Oh yes when we finished our London, London leave on Kelstern which was 625 squadron they sent me up on a flying, on a, just a flight around the local neighbourhood to get used to the area and the approach to landing and so on. In a Lancaster of course because I was fully qualified Lancaster pilot by that time. Ten days at the Number 1 Lancaster Finishing School. Ten days instruction on Lancasters and low and behold we were just flying around the countryside admiring the scenery and then the flight engineer says to me. ‘The starboard outer engine is overheating.’ Cheers. [laughs] I’d learned my lesson so I just said, ‘Well feather the engine. Feather the prop. Turn it off and feather it.’ So we continued our flying on three engines, two on the left side and one on the starboard side and I had flown them on three engines. In fact I’d flown them at LFS on two engines and I knew they handled perfectly well on three engines so I didn’t hesitate to feather the, to shut that starboard engine down and feather the props so we just landed and I can remember the Lanc flew almost exactly the same on three engines, two on one side and one on the other, you know, on the approach to the strip, to the runway and just did a normal landing, and we just taxied it on the two inner engines to its parking spot and I, I said to the flight sergeant in charge, ‘You’d better have a look at that engine. It’s not working.’ He said, ‘Ok.’ The next day I went out to see how he’d got on with it and he said, ‘Oh there was nothing wrong with the engine. It was just the sender on the, and it wasn’t overheating it was just a sender on the, on the engine itself was faulty and it was sending out the wrong message to the gauge on the, the, um flight engineers panel.’ He had, he had the gauges in front of him. He could, he used to watch. And then I knew I’d got on to a good aeroplane. A couple of days later we were on our first operation because we’d had our leave. It didn’t take long for them to put us on to ops and about half of our crew flew with the remains of another crew piloted by a bloke called Flight Officer Slade and flight officer is not an RAF rank. It’s an American Air Force rank and he was an American and he wore a khaki uniform, the American flying uniform and when he was around in the mess or something he had on the American officer’s uniform. A flight officer, an American flight officer, was the equivalent of a pilot officer in the RAF. But that, that trip, oh when we were flying Wellingtons of course we did a lot of night flying too and we did fly over, over France one night with a load of leaflets and this was in the Wellington and that was all we carried. We had two cans. Two small bomb container cans which were about six foot long by eighteen inches high and wide packed tight with leaflets and when you got to the correct spot the bomb aimer who was down in the nose pressed the right button and the bottom of the canister after he’d opened the bomb doors of course and all the leaflets fluttered down below. Well, for some reason or other he had a nervous attack just before he, he had to release the leaflets over Chartres was the town about forty miles south, southwest of France. Anyway, we got to Chartres alright or the bomb aimer reckoned we were over Chartres so he pressed the button and in his haste he pressed the wrong button and this great canister, six foot long canister packed tight with leaflets hanging on a bomb hook disappeared from the aeroplane and went down with all its leaflets packed tight. When we got back they wanted to know where the, where the other canister was. I mean it could have killed someone, that canister, if it had landed on someone or put a big hole in the roof of the Chartres cathedral. I believe they have a cathedral in Chartres but we never heard any more about that apart from the bombing, bombing leader quizzing the, our bomb aimer as to why he’d just come back with one empty container and he had to explain what had happened. One of the reasons it might have happened because when we were crossing just before we were crossing the French coast heading for Chartres, this was at night of course, someone in the crew said, ‘There’s a searchlight on us.’ Well of course that rattled everyone including the bomb aimer. Searchlights. And after a while we found the searchlight was following us. Well searchlights are not mobile. Not that mobile.
AP: [not that fast] anyway.
AA: And I found someone had knocked the switch. It could have been me. It could have been anyone else on the crew. It could have been the ground staff left it switched on and knocked the switch that turned the landing lights on. Well, in the Wellington the landing light normally, not being used, points straight down. When you want to use it you pull a lever and it swings the landing light forward on a hinge so that it points forward where you’re going to land. We never used it, we never used landing lights all the time, the RAF weren’t using them at the time because they had such good flare paths. Electric flare paths. Anyway, this light followed us and it wasn’t until we were well over the coast, flying over German occupied France with this bright light shining straight down and all I can think was the Germans must have looked at that and said, ‘Oh well that’s someone practicing. It wouldn’t be a foreign plane you know, flying with a light like, on like that,’ so they didn’t bother sending anyone up to investigate. I was lucky. Every now and again someone got shot down on those exploits. They called them nickels. N I C K E L S. Nickels. Dropping leaflets and practically everyone had to do a nickel as part of their course on the Wellingtons so we did ours. Anyway, we, he got the right switch for the second one, he didn’t drop that. He just opened the bottom and all the leaflets went flutter, flutter, flutter down to, down to the cathedral underneath, hopefully. Or just the town of Chartres, I don’t know where they went. Might have all gone down on someone’s farm. That was a bit nerve-wracking especially when we found the searchlight was on us. The next time I found a searchlight was on us when we were bombing um a town in Germany. It was the, er, near Frankfurt, just a little town southwest of Frankfurt where there was a General Motors factory. General Motors, USA. Opel. It was just described as an Opel factory which was still a General Motors subsidiary at that, well it was had been a subsidiary of German motors for some time. The Opels. Opel cars. And we had to do a turn on a town south, south of Frankfurt. It turned out to be a fairly hot town because approaching this town of, let’s see. I’ll just um [shuffling of papers] yeah I started my tour on Bomber Command in, in July. On the 4th of July, that was my first, with Flight Officer Slade. There, just trying to work oh Russelsheim. The Opel works at Russelsheim. That’s where the factory was and we had a turning point of probably about sixty or eighty miles south of Rüsselsheim. We were flying eastward. Basically directly east and then we had to turn north and fly north to Rüsselsheim. That’s right. Rüsselsheim and the turning point was over a town called Mannheim. Now, it was a stupid place to have a turning point because that had been bombed quite a few times and it was full of anti-aircraft guns and searchlights and we could see the searchlights and we could see anti-aircraft fire bursting in front of us as we approached, approached Mannheim and it wasn’t very long before we got picked up by a blue tinged searchlight, radar controlled from what we were told. We’d heard about these blue tinged searchlights, blue lights, and they were directly controlled by radar from the ground and if the radar picked up a Lancaster flying they could just about pinpoint it with the searchlights but they would have needed about five, about five hundred radar controllers down below to pick up every one but they used to pick out one and have a go at it. Well, instead of everything being black we got his blinding light lighting up the whole plane. I could hardly see the instruments because I was blinded. I had, you know, flying through the night to get your night vision then suddenly a thousand candle power light’s shining in your face practically and I remember thinking, ‘Jesus I’ve done all this training and now I’m going to be killed,’ I thought to myself. I pushed the stick forward fortunately and she dived quickly and I immediately lost the blue tinged searchlights. You see, when they, when they put that blue tinged light had about another half a dozen focussed on you. They could see the blue light and they, they, we had about six searchlights altogether lighting us up but we lost the light. Immediately black as pitch. And we went into a manoeuvre called the corkscrew and you sort of fly in a down to your left. Then when you are half way down to where you’re going you turn to the right and keep diving. You’re diving. You’re going very fast and then when you get down over to the right you swing it to the left and come up again and do two or three of those. Well, we were basically told that they were, you know, to evade, avoid if you get a fighter behind you if you get the words from the rear gunner, ‘There’s a fighter on you. Go into a corkscrew,’ at night and mostly we flew at night anyway. Half the time we flew at night and half the time I flew in daylight. That was, that was a different thing altogether but and you could go into the corkscrew. That was all I could think to do and I looked at the instrument panel, the airspeed indicator, just as we got near the bottom of where I was going to pull out and I think I was doing four hundred miles an hour. The top diving speed of a Lancaster at that time was three hundred and sixty miles an hour. So we were doing four hundred miles an hour. Actually, it was calibrated in knots. I’ve converted it to miles an hour and we had a full bomb load on. Rüsselheim, yeah we had a four thousand pound bomb on. That’s the high explosive one. What did they call that? They used to have a nickname for that one. Blockbuster or something like that and I don’t know what the other ones were but um oh yes we had just one high explosive bomb, one four thousand and the rest were incendiaries. It made a nasty mess if it landed on you. Anyway, it was a total of, oh I don’t know what it would be, about six or seven thousand pounds sitting underneath us so I was very careful to pull out gently from the bottom of the dive. I didn’t want to leave the wings behind which could have happened to us if you did it quickly. I think on that same raid I saw a picture of a Lancaster that came back with, with both of its ailerons useless. He’d dived too fast and pulled out to fast like the same thing I did but I pulled out fairly gently. I knew quite a bit about flying aeroplanes theoretically as well as, as well as practically and I knew you couldn’t pull out quickly ‘cause I knew what could happen but it didn’t so we just carried on and bombed the, bombed the General Motors plant and then came home again. That was one of the most interesting ones. Another interesting trip I did much later though. We did, did this trip out over the Bay of Biscay. There was an estuary, the Gironde Estuary not far from the, what would have been the Spanish border of Spain and, and the Bay of Biscay, French coast but anyway this Gironde Estuary, oh there’s some wineries up there, up the Gironde. Someone heard I’d bombed near the wineries. He said, ‘Well you’re lucky you didn’t bomb the wineries because I wouldn’t be speaking to you if you’d spoilt my, spilt my wine.’ But we didn’t. We flew from Kelstern almost due south right down to the south coast, then turned right, south, just before the south coast and flew down out to Lands End and at that stage flying to Lands End we took it down to fifty feet going over Lands End and we flew all the way around out into the Atlantic at fifty feet. Fortunately, it was a very fine day and not much wind and round in a big wide circle fifty feet all the way. I think we had four hundred Lancasters on that one. Something like that. And we had an escort though to fly over the Bay of Biscay, escorted of long range Mosquitos, fighters, in case some German type decided to have a go at us but, no one, no one showed up because we were flying at fifty feet. That was to be under the German radar of course and they never spotted us till us we were over, over the river and then they didn’t have time to get, get there and do anything. We’d gone by the time they woke up to what happened but I remember we did this two days running. We did it was the same, same town almost, almost the same spot in the Gironde Estuary. We came hammering over the Bay of Biscay at fifty feet. As we got to the coast we had to rise up a bit because there was about a thirty foot lump of hillocks and trees and stuff there so we went up a bit and as we crossed the beach I looked down and there was an old horse. You could see it was an old horse because we were only fifty or thirty feet from him looking down. It was slightly to my left just plodding along. An old draft horse it was and the driver was sitting up on the cart. He didn’t look up and the horse didn’t look up. No one, neither of them looked up. We just shot over the top of them at about thirty feet above them because they had come up on this slight rise, this twenty foot rise from the, from the sand where the estuary started and I don’t know what happened to them afterwards. We didn’t drop anything or do anything nasty to them. They were probably French anyway. Not that that would have stopped me if I’d, if I’d had to bomb them but we didn’t have to bomb them. We just went along the estuary until we found the fuel oil tanks that we were going to do a bit of damage to. They were, they were used from time to time by submarines that’d sail up this estuary at night and fill up there. We were, this flight was in daylight of course. Beautiful day. No wind hardly. Blue skies. Not a cloud in the sky. A delightful day. I think I had my twenty sixth birthday that day so I got a nice birthday present. A nice trip to southern of France to the Gironde Estuary at fifty feet over the Bay of Biscay and we dropped bombs on it and I’ve got photographs of the, of the target area with a ship lying on its side. It wouldn’t have been our bomb because it was someone in front of me rolled the ship over with a bomb. He was supposed to bomb the tanks but he might have just bombed the ship instead. Now that was, that was August the 5th. I know that because it was my birthday the next day. No. August the 4th that’s right. August the 5th was my birthday. The second, the next day we, we did exactly the same route. Flew down to the south coast of England, turned right, almost to the south coast, and went down through Somerset and all those places to Lands End and off the end of Lands End at fifty feet, gradually taking it down to fifty feet as we got near Lands End. And this was the second day and we were all going hell for leather towards the er the Gironde Estuary as usual at a little town call Pauillac. P A U I L L A C. Pauillac. This was the second day and they were both, both in Pauillac but slightly different positions in Pauillac and we had ten thousand pounds of bombs on board approximately. Ten thousand five hundred pounds of bombs carrying on that one and it took us seven hours fifty five minutes altogether but as we were approaching the estuary out over the bay the rear gunner called up, ‘Someone’s going in.’ I looked around and there was a great splash of water still hanging in the air. One of the Lancs had dived into the, into the water but what had happened he’d collided with one of his friends from the same squadron. They were showing how close they could fly together which was the last thing they ever did. One of them survived but one didn’t. Anyway, on that, that, that occasion we, we didn’t go back to Kelstern because there was something wrong with the weather by the time we’d gone. To have two bright, sunny days over England in a row was a bit unusual and it was just the usual thing you know. It had clouded over or something. This was August. Well August can be cloudy or it can be very nice in England. Yeah but anyway it was too cloudy or foggy or something to land there so we landed at a different airfield, a place called Gamston. Gamston. That was a Wellington training base I think, at the time. Gamston. So they had a nice, nice long runway. One interesting thing happened with that. We had to just fly back to our base next door. We just had one night there sitting in chairs, sleeping in chairs, in the mess. Well the next day we returned, the weather cleared at Kelstern. Took us fifteen minutes to get from Gamston in the Midlands, more or less, to Kelstern in Lincolnshire and I remember taking off. I didn’t think, didn’t think of it at the time but we didn’t need to take off like we had nine thousand pounds of bombs on board at all. You know, we had very little fuel. See, that trip was a fairly long trip. Took us almost eight hours in the air and we didn’t have much petrol left when we got back and they didn’t fill it up. They said, ‘Oh you’ve got enough fuel to get back to’ [Gamston], or to ‘Kelstern alright.’ I just took off as usual and as usual was I usually took off in a Lancaster with about fifteen thousand pounds of bombs on it something like that and about two thousand gallons of petrol which I carried on a short trip and I just opened the throttles up and she lifted off, off the ground in about two hundred yards or less, a hundred and seventy, a hundred and eighty yards or something. Just floated up in to the air. I realised then that I didn’t need to open it up to full bore really. I could have probably opened up and we’d never been trained to take off a Lancaster when it was a light load. You were always shown how to take off in a Lancaster as fast as possible with the load that you’d got but of course I flew it a few times with only a light load and I knew what I was doing but the excitement of the trip and seeing the Lancasters behind us causing a great splash in the Bay of Biscay had changed, took my mind off what I was doing I suppose but up she went and we were home in about ten minutes or fifteen minutes I put down here I think. Fifteen minutes trip back to Kelstern. That includes landing it too. And that was about halfway through my tour but we kept going various places. Le Havre, that’s right on the French coast when they, they were trying to get Germans out of the forts that they had or buildings they had taken over in Le Havre which is on the coast of France opposite England. We bombed them in daylight of course. Half of my trips were in daylight. Sixteen. I did thirty two altogether. I did one more than I really needed to so sixteen night and fifteen day or something like that and I used to like the daylight ones because you’d look up and you’d see about two hundred spitfires and about a hundred something else, American fighters, sitting above you, about one or two thousand feet just above where you were flying so we mostly did our, our operations at about fifteen thousand feet. Frankfurt for instance. We did that at about seventeen thousand eight hundred feet. That was a good one. I liked Frankfurt. That was the night one of my best friends on 467 squadron, which is an Australian squadron near, near the town of Lincoln. Just south, south east I think of Lincoln. 467 squadron. I think you mentioned you had a friend in 467 squadron. Yeah, Bomber Command, 467 squadron crew. A relative of yours -
AP: Correct
AA: Flew. Right?
AP: Yeah. A few months before that but yes.
AA: Yeah. Yeah. So he was in March or April.
AP: May, it was.
AA: Yeah, 10th of May that’s right. Yeah, well I had this friend of mine in, in, in 467 squadron he was a deputy flight commander and he said they’re having a very rough time at the moment because people are getting shot down all the time including our flight commanders and they made him a deputy flight commander as a flight lieutenant which was one rank higher than I was. I was a flying officer but fortunately for us I wasn’t in a, in a squadron where they were having a lot of calamities. It was just a little less than average. I think it was because I think it was because it was a more disciplined squadron. The RAF was a lot more disciplined than the RAAF. Particularly the RAAF squadrons in England. They were noted for a bit of a lack of doing the right thing a lot of the time. I know they didn’t do the right thing by me because I visited, that Australian squadron, 460 squadron at Binbrook two or three times for various reasons. Sometimes to deliver a Lancaster there or bring one back from there. It was only about four miles from us because the, the, and the circuits interlinked so you had to be a bit careful that you didn’t fly into a 460 squadron Lancaster going in the opposite direction. But what I didn’t like about it I hung my cap, fortunately it wasn’t the round cap just the four and a half cap on the hook in the hall like I, in the, in the ante room like I did in my own squadron and I found someone had stolen it immediately. I wasn’t there that long. I just had lunch there. Took about half an hour. I thought I was doing alright. I go back and no cap. Well, I didn’t need it to fly a Lancaster because I had a flying helmet which I still had that in the, in the Lancaster or something like that but anyway you had to have a flying helmet. I hadn’t lost that. Just the ‘fore and aft’ cap. So I reckon the Australian squadron of [inclined] to be full of ill-disciplined, bloody thieves in a large, large section of them and that was, that was my opinion of the RAF as against the Australians like comparing the Australians were like a bloody Boy Scout troops except not quite so honest as the Scouts would be. And I didn’t like them. My, my old friend Dave Browne was, he had a bit of bad luck. He was, he got to his twenty sixth operation. I think they’d just made him a flight lieutenant, second in command of his flight and he did a couple of operations the same night as I did. I bombed Frankfurt September the, September the 12th 1944 Frankfurt and Dave Browne got shot down on that same night so it wasn’t much good him being a flight lieutenant and second in charge of the flight. It didn’t do him any good. Frankfurt. We bombed from seventeen thousand eight hundred feet and one thing I noticed about Frankfurt as we flew over it in a, in a sort of south easterly direction and came around, swung around to the left and flew back past it and you could look down and see Frankfurt and it looked just like Melbourne at night with the streets were all lit up but it wasn’t lights it was the burning buildings on each side of, of the street. Frankfurt was on fire that night and I set fire to most of it. Or a lot of it. Anyway, we had a good one on that. Frankfurt. Yeah. You probably think it’s a bit rough to think of burning people alive but it didn’t worry us. I’d seen, I’d seen Coventry in England. I’d seen Brighton. I’d seen a street in London where I used to go past and walk down part of. It was there from the first time I got to England in 1943, about July ‘43 and I’d seen this little street. Very attractive houses still intact and one night around about this time I happened to be in London again and it was a complete shambles. The Germans had sent up a special, special group of planes, probably not very many and bombed the hell out of it or it could have been those flying bombs I don’t know. Probably more likely to be that. The buzz bombs. They would do that. They were quite erratic. You never knew where they were going to land. I was in London when the first ones came over on leave. I looked out of the window of the hotel I was on the third floor of. A private hotel. It was the top floor and I heard this bop bopbopbopbop sound going across the sky. Just sounded just like my old motorbike. My 350 Calthorpe. Same sound except that there was this light at the back of it. My Calthorpe never had a light at the back of it. Oh it had a little red light you could hardly see but never had a big white glow at the back of it and it certainly didn’t go as fast as the buzz bombs but I can remember the anti-aircraft guns in London were firing at the thing but they never hit it and I could see what was happening. I could hear shrapnel starting from the, the exploding bomb started to land on the roof. I was up on the top floor and I could hear the things clang clanging on the top of the roof. Steel pieces from the, from the shells that they were shooting up at the flying bomb and not getting anywhere near it. I got under the bed for a while but I thought, ‘What will I do?’ There was no air raid shelter there so I just stayed under the bed till things quietened down and stopped firing. You could hear the guns going off as well as the buzz bomb flying over London. Everything went quiet after a while and I heard where it landed. It landed somewhere near a railway station up in er it would have been north east London a bit. North east somewhere. I’ve used that station afterwards when on my trips. I went, I did about half a dozen trips to, back to Europe, after the war, after I was married, with my wife and we went all over England and Scotland and Germany too. France and Germany. I liked the Germans. We got on very well with them. My last trip to Germany was in 1993, 1993 I think it was. We went with a group from the RAF association over in, it was in South Yarrow then. Frank. A bloke called Frank someone or other was the leader and apart from a lot of trips around England which we did which was very nice that included a visit to the Victory ship down on the south coast somewhere. We cruised, we visited the battle areas in France and then when we got to Germany we got to, I think we flew to Berlin and they had a, a small bus waiting for us and with two German air force pilots as drivers. One’s the driver. One’s the, one’s the navigator. Very nice blokes and they drove us all over middle Germany and East Germany, Not the north and not the very south either but the middle Germany. Berlin and then over to the French border where the southwest part of Germany is and they took it in turns to drive and navigate and when we got back to Frankfurt where I had done so much damage they’ve got a new, big new wide boulevard through the centre of Frankfurt. I knew the name of it at one stage but I can’t remember it now but they can thank me for putting that there. I removed a lot of old scruffy houses from a great strip in the middle of Frankfurt and they’ve got a big boulevard like St Kilda Road runs through it. Well, I did that, half the work for them. But anyway these two German blokes we got on very well with them and they took us to a couple of their airfields on the east border of Germany which used to be East Germany. It had just been changed, just amalgamated with West Germany in about 1995 or something like that.
AP: Before that. 1990
AA: 1990 was it?
AP: ’89 or – [? Just.]
AA: Oh that’s right ‘93 when I was there and the remains of the war were still there the West German wall but we went to the West German border somewhere near a town called Cottbus I think and there was a, air force station. They gave us a very good reception. Nice light lunch and so on and showed us the latest airplanes they had and we climbed all over the latest fighter the Germans had. In fact, the leader, the leader of the expedition Frank Wilson, that’s his name, he was a Lancaster pilot, he managed to get inside in the cockpit and wriggle the controls of one of them which was in the, in the hangar we were standing in. Then they did a bit of a demonstration flight for us. Low flying and a few aerobatics and so on.
AP: Beautiful.
AA: That was good. Then after that they drove us, the two blokes in this small bus drove us to the river which is the border I think between France and Germany on the west somewhere near the Rhine yeah it’s on the Rhine town Wesel W E S E L Wesel and we were taken as guests, honoured guests to a annual meeting of the ex-fighter pilots association.
AP: Wow.
AA: And they were all, had all these long tables in this room there with these pots of beer and they were singing songs, you know, bouncing these songs around. Our leader, Frank, he had to make a speech. He got up on the, on the stage and spoke to them and I suppose about three quarters of them would understand. They speak a lot of English in Germany and they were bouncing their big pots on the, on the ground and I turned back to the bloke next to me, he was German but he spoke English, they made sure we had a English speaking people sprinkled amongst our travel lot so we could ask any questions. I said, ‘What are they singing now?’ You know they were stamping their feet and banging their pots on the table, wooden tables and they said, ‘Oh that’s, “We’re marching against England.” ’ That’s what he said [laughs] and I said, ‘Oh, that’s interesting.’ Yeah and oh I got that plaque there from him, yeah.
AP: Nice.
AA: I got, we got a couple of pictures from him I don’t think they’re here. No. Mind your feet. I’ll just get the plaque down show you we got from him. From the opposition. There you are. How’s your German? Any good?
AP: Fair, Fair [?] it’s like an association of um fighter flyers associations.
AA: That’s right. Fighter.
AP: Yeah.
AA: They’re called flyers.
AP: [? ]That’s fantastic. I might take a photo of that later.
AA: Yeah. Well that’s come out its plug.
AP: Yeah that’s alright. It’s coming through the internal microphone now.
AA: Oh.
AP: Yeah, I couldn’t make it work so.
AA: That’s one of my favourite aircraft.
AP: Ah that’s an Anson.
AA: I used to like, I could fly them at night. Anytime. They’re good. Avro Anson.
AP: Yeah. Fantastic.
AA: And that’s the uniform we used to wear. That round cap beret with a sort of a what we called a goon skins they were, sort of one piece overalls and they used to try and make us wear them at, in mid-summer, at that place in South Australia where it was a hundred and eight degrees three days running and it was so hot you couldn’t sit on the metal beds inside the huts because they send they heat out more than the hut itself but anyway we talked, talked the boss into letting us wear shorts and shirts after a while. So, we weren’t so bad. And what else? On my last operation was on Cologne. Ah yes I, when I finished my tour in, here you are on, as a middle multi engine and that’s -
AP: above average yeah I read that.
AA: Well I got that for the Airspeed Oxford too but that was for being a good pilot but I think if you got back from thirty two trips he reckoned you must be above the average so he always gave that to someone who finished a tour which I did. Not everyone finished the tour. Old Dave Browne didn’t.
AP: Many of them didn’t.
AA: When my last operation was October the 31st on Cologne. What did we carry there? One four thousand. One blockbuster four thousand pounder and the rest in high explosive bombs but a lot of the times we carried about fifteen thousand pounds of bombs. Here’s one. Oh that’s fourteen thousand feet. Here’s another one thirteen, thirteen thousand pound bombs plus four five hundred pounders. Well that’s fifteen thousand pounds altogether which is about six and three quarter tons isn’t it?
AP: [?] yeah
AA: Divided by 2240 you get about six tons, six and a quarter tonnes. That’s a lot of weight you’re carrying and then there’s the petrol as well as that. Course that’s, that’s fairly high loaded. That was in Calais. We took part really in the invasion of Germany, of Europe. A lot of our work was supporting the, the British army. When they came up against a rather sticky situation they’d call for help from the RAF and we’d do a daylight trip on them so we wouldn’t bomb them instead of the opposition that they were complaining about and you know you killed a lot of Germans that way without killing any British. We never killed any British. We knocked off a lot of Frogs working with the Germans. Mostly in a little town just on the invasion coast. Where was it? [shuffling papers]. I don’t know. Another interesting thing was I’d flown over about eight different countries in Europe in a Lancaster. Eight. Including Sweden and Switzerland and Norway and Denmark and of course France and Germany and England and Wales and Scotland. I’ve been around in that Lancaster and that was a beautiful thing to fly. It was like flying, driving a Mercedes Benz. Beautiful. And probably your motorbike. Get as much enjoyment out of it except that that’s got a smaller engine than I had in my 350. Oh, yes, here you are. Have a look at this. There’s my motorbike.
AP: Oh fantastic. When’s that?
AA: Er that was -
AP: July 1938.
AA: ’38. I got that bike in ‘36. 1936. I wish I still had the damned thing. I shouldn’t have sold these things but I wanted to buy a car so I got a few shekels for that when I sold it, not very many and then bought a Singer Le Mans. A 1938 Singer.
AP: Fantastic.
AA: I haven’t got a picture of that but up there see those two top pictures.
AP: Yep.
AA: They’re of a car I had in England. That’s a Singer Le Mans. A nineteen, they’re both pictures of a restored, one’s been restored perfectly and the other is a lash up job um restored 1934 model Singer. Singer Le Mans because they did a lot of racing of Singer Le Mans and had a lot of victories and beat the MGs but then the next year in 1935 and, or ‘36 or something they had a lot of trouble with their brakes and they didn’t do any good at all but that, see that little black one.
AP: Yeah.
AA: In the corner? That’s the real one. That’s the one I had.
AP: That’s the one.
AA: In England.
AP: Was? As in this is when you were serving in England?
AA: Oh yeah. Yeah.
AP: Yeah. So, how did you get that car and what happened to it?
AA: Well it cost me sixty pounds. It was in the, just advertised in the local paper in Louth which is the local town for Kelstern and I just went along and bought it for sixty pounds. I had sixty pounds. We were fairly well paid and I didn’t gamble like, like most of my crew. They seemed to lose all their money but I never lent them anything. No. I was thinking if they’re going to lose their bloody money it’s their own fault. One of the blokes in the crew wanted to get married and he sent me a telegram. Unfortunately he wanted to borrow twenty pounds off me but fortunately I was on leave at the time so I never got that telegram until I got back from leave after his marriage day so that got me out of that. But that had two exhaust pipes like, like your bike out there but they just came out of one cylinder, one 350cc cylinder. Now, that was a beauty. One of the most thrilling experiences in my whole life and that includes Lancasters and anything, any other bloody thing was when I got that bloody bike.
AP: That motorbike. Fantastic.
AA: Yeah.
AP: Carrying on for a moment with the car. How did you fuel it?
AA: Oh we got an issue of four gallons a month if you were operational air crew. Well, I was an operational aircrew for six months because I was still on the squadron and I did four months actual, four months actual flying in Lancasters but then the CO decided to keep me on the squadron because I had an above-average rating for flying Airspeed Oxfords. Well, he had an Airspeed Oxford at his disposal and he used to like to go to visit other squadrons and perhaps his girlfriend’s town, I don’t know, and he like me to come along the next day, with a navigator of course, and bring him and bring him his aeroplane back and he’d fly it back. So he’d fly it to from Kelstern to Westcott or somewhere like that get out there at that airfield and I’d fly it back until I heard from him.
AP: That’s not a bad job is it?
AA: Well, he, he kept me on the station from the end of October, November, December till about half way through January doing that and he gave me a DFC for it. For being a good boy. Actually, most skippers of Lancasters if they completed a tour successfully got a DFC but he made sure I got one and I used to fly him everywhere. I even did a couple of trips to London with him I think. Or at least one anyway. And most of that would be around Lincolnshire somewhere and oh yes I had to investigate a crash on one occasion and I was, this was the first time I’d flown his Lanc, his Airspeed Oxford. We had to go to a station on the, on the south east coast, the south east coast of England, you know, and one of our Lancasters, it was a very bad night. Where were we bombing that night? I don’t know. Anyway, we were coming back from the middle of Germany somewhere and we were all told to fly over, over the top of a cold front that was approaching to get home again. As they said, ‘You’re going out you don’t have to worry about the trip to’ wherever you’re going ‘but when you’re coming back fly at twenty three thousand feet to get over the top of this electrical storm which you’ll run into.’
AP: Higher than that
AA: Well I was flying at twenty four thousand feet and it was very comfortable. We had a very nice bombing trip, killed a lot of nice Germans and we were flying back and there was no chance of the Luftwaffe chasing us at that stage because the weather down below looked pretty crook at times. It was nice and clear upside where we were until the rear gunner called out, ‘Hey skipper, my oxygen has gone out. I can’t get any oxygen.’ Well, he wanted me to say, ‘Well, oh well leave your turret and come inside,’ and I didn’t want to do that. I wanted the protection from him at the back as the most vulnerable side for us. The rear. The Germans liked to follow us up from the back. If possible shoot the rear gunner and shoot the rest of us and I said, ‘Look Ron.’ Ron smith his name was. ‘Look, I’ll take you down five thousand feet and that’ll get us down to eighteen, seventeen or eighteen thousand feet. You’ll be alright there.’ And he lived. I took it down to eighteen, seventeen thousand feet and we went through the top of this electrical storm. It worried me a little bit because it was pretty rough you know. The old Lanc was bouncing around a lot and fortunately we didn’t have any load on at this stage. We were empty. Just the petrol to get home and the four propellers each had a blue ring around the tip. You could see the big round blue circle around the tip and on the windscreen this little zigzag all over the windscreen. Sparks coming down the windscreen from the lightning. We were loaded. Loaded with lightning. However, we got past there. We got through it. It was a bit rough, you know. It was a bit bouncy but that didn’t worry me much. I was, I was more concerned about what the lightning was going to do. Whether it was going to get any worse than it was but we got back and he didn’t say much when we got back. I think he was reasonably grateful but at least he could breathe on the way home. He got out of there and plugged himself in to, no, he didn’t, he stopped in the turret. That’s right. I think what he wanted me to tell him to get out and plug himself in to one of the other outlets inside not in his, he was right in the back stuck in the glass with a big opening on the back so he could see clearly and er but he stopped there and he didn’t have to warn us that there was anyone else coming up behind us. I didn’t think there would be. Not through that storm. They would have, they would have corkscrewed into the ground I reckon if a fighter had tried to fly through there. It was bad enough in a Lancaster but that day, why I’m telling you that story, we lost a couple of Lancasters and one of them that didn’t come back they found it had dived into the sand, and into the sandy soil off the beach on the, in Norfolk somewhere and I was detailed by the CO with the knowledge that I hadn’t started flying him around to his girlfriend’s houses or anything at this stage but he’d seen the logbook. He used to read through everyone’s logbook. We had to put this in every month you see and he used to read everything in it. Better than reading the “Sporting Globe” I suppose but anyway he read that something like the same thing, you know, the competition the Germans and the British but we got, we got I was just detailed to fly this Oxford which I hadn’t forgotten how to fly to this American airfield on the, on the east, southeast coast there somewhere in Norfolk or Suffolk or, no, I think it would be Norfolk really but anyway we found the spot where the Lancaster had crashed and it had dived straight down apparently and the engines were twelve feet under the ground we estimated. Just an estimate by what was left of the Lancaster sticking up out of the back of it and as we were looking at er, looking at it a farmer wandered up and said to us, ‘Good day.’ He said, ‘There’s more remains over in the trees there.’ and I said, ‘Well, look we’re just inspecting the wreckage of the Lancaster. Someone else will be coming for the remains.’ So, I didn’t want to get stirred up with the remains of the, of the crew but that was his greeting to us, ‘there’s remains over in the trees there.’ So in, at the hit, Lancaster bits and pieces including the tree must have flown in every direction to have hit and got the engines that far underground. Must have been a bad one. It must have dived down from about ten thousand feet or something. Fifteen thousand. I don’t know. Twenty thousand. I don’t know but I was very glad we missed that thing ourselves but that was the closest thing I think we had to get into trouble. But no I’ve been to Poland twice. We went across the North Sea as usual. Across Norway. Now, this trip took about nine hours. Crossed in to Sweden which was neutral. As we got to the central of the Swedish, you know, it’s a long thing, goes up and down and I think the best parts are down low somewhere on the Baltic. Turned right there and headed south and on the way down the Swedes sent up a whole lot of Bofors shells but they only go to sixteen thousand feet. We were at about eighteen or nineteen thousand and it was a very pretty show actually. They come up in their bright colours reds and greens sometimes. Mostly reds. They used come up and you could see them coming up and bending gracefully over, starting to fall and blow up there. Bofors, 40mm but every now and again some keen type of Swede or someone who didn’t like the British, in the Swedish army, would send up a shot from a German 88mm high explosive shell but fortunately they were about four hundred yards on my left as I was flying south to Stettin in er in what is now Poland and I don’t think they hit anyone on that night but certainly I never saw them hit anyone there with their shells. I think they might have been trying though. As I say there was a keen type on the end of a German 88mm gun or a Swedish 88mm gun but that’s just the same sort of explosion as the Germans had at about, you know, we were at about eighteen thousand feet. And Bofors were 40mm guns which most of the Swedes were just sending up to let the British know that they weren’t allowed to fly over Sweden on the, in the rules, I don’t know what rules ruled most in those days but they let us know that we weren’t particularly welcome unless we had plenty of money to spend sort of thing. The Swedes used to sell steel to both the Germans and the British.
AP: But they were neutral.
AA: Well so did I. So were the Switzerland Swiss but we went over a corner of Switzerland at one stage. Where else did we go? I think they were the only neutral, neutral countries we flew over. I went to Stettin. That’s in Poland now. Used to be spelled S T E T T I N when the Germans had it. Now it’s spelt S C H E and something else, you know, Polish.
AP: A Polish name.
AA: Yeah.
AP: Makes sense.
AA: That’s about it.
AP: Were there any, I’ve got a couple, a couple more specific questions that I’d like to ask if -
AA: Yeah.
AP: If you don’t mind. Were there any hoodoos or superstitions with your squadron?
AA: No. There was no superstition. Just hope. Just hope that it doesn’t happen to you.
AP: Fair enough.
AA: Yeah. Oh no. We didn’t actually think about that much because we, when I look back I think we didn’t worry. We were used to going to town. Drink all the beer in Louth which was the local pub. I had a nice girlfriend, a WAAF, I used to go around with all the time. We used to go down to Binbrook in that black Singer. The black, the little black one in the corner there. It was the Plough Inn in Binbrook. We used to go down there and drink bottled beer. She liked bottled beer. I remember we went to, there was a dance in the sergeants’ mess. I wasn’t allowed to go. Officers weren’t allowed to go to that and I knew she was going to be there so I said, ‘Oh I think I’ll see you there.’ So, I borrowed the rear gunners, well he owed it to me for saving his life. I borrowed his, one of his spare tunics. He was a sergeant and I went along to the sergeants’ mess in it, just wearing the same blue pants that I normally had on and with his jacket on with the one wing and I’m dancing around with my girlfriend and the flight lieutenant um he was the orderly officer or something. He was, no, the squadron, the squadron something. He had some official position anyway. His job was to sort of get around and make sure everything was going all right and also collect the belongings of the people who got shot down, which happened from time to time. They used to come in at about 3am in the morning and wake me up while I was asleep and collecting all someone’s belongings. Which was, I didn’t like my sleep being disturbed like that. But what was he? Anyway, I got the job as assistant to him so that I could stay in the assistant, not orderly officer, some other name they used to use for this particular job and he used to, his main office was in the same little building as the CO’s office. And anyway, he said to me, he was allowed to be there because he’s the orderly bloke or the, what did they call him? I was, they actually made me the assistant something or other. I might think about it later. Anyway, I was being groomed to be in his, in his place when he went on leave in about three weeks’ time and we got on very well together and he looked across to me and said, ‘Ah,’ wearing my gunners uniform, ‘Ah Flying Officer Atkins,’ he says, ‘Are you enjoying the dance?’ I said, ‘Yes thanks, sir.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Oh well that’s good. I’ll see you in the morning.’ Well of course he didn’t give a damn anyway. If no one else complained he wasn’t going to complain. Fortunately, the boss, Cocky, the wing commander, wasn’t attending the dance. He was probably attending his girlfriends, girlfriend in the local pub. He used to have her stashed up in the pub at times because I, I was very friendly with one of the telephone operators and she used to tell me who he used to ring up. She just, oh that was the life. That was the one I used to take down to the Plough Inn at Binbrook and drink bottled beer with and of course it was mid-winter when I was visiting Binbrook. Very icy roads and where it went down in to a bit of a dip it was icier than ever. I remember we drifted down in to this dip, this girl and I, and only a two seater of course. There, you can see that. There’s only room for two people in those, those cars and anyway it did a complete, it slipped around did a complete circuit around this -
AP: Just like a -
AA: Black ice.
AP: Just like a Halifax.
AA: Oh yeah. Yeah but when it went right around with a Halifax I had to drive it around. This one spun around like bloody top on the ice. I must have pressed the wrong buttons or something. Anyway, we, we just drove out of it, drove out very carefully, very slowly. Drove out and parked in its usual spot outside the side of the Plough Inn in Binbrook village.
AP: Nothing happened to you.
AA: Good.
AP: You said the circuits with Binbrook and Kelstern interlinked.
AA: They crossed.
AP: Yeah.
AA: Interlinked.
AP: Were they separated in some way like levels or something like that? Or was it just a case of -
AA: No. We always used to do the circuit at a thousand feet and as far as I know no one’s ever said to me, ‘Binbrook’s going to be doing it at the same time.’
AP: Sounds a bit terrifying. I should, I should declare an interest here. I’m an air traffic controller so that sounds terrifying to me.
AA: Oh, well, if you saw a Lancaster operation that would be terrifying just to look at.
AP: I think you’re probably right. I think you’re probably right. What five miles?
AA: Talk about fireworks. My first navigator, I had him until about the middle of the tour until his nerve gave out. After he, after I, after the war I met the, my wireless operator a few times. A fellow named Trevor something. Trevor Jones. A very nice bloke and an excellent wireless operator. Never missed a beat. He got all the messages out and all, sent them all back as they should have and that had a lot to do with surviving. If there was a shift in the wind he’d know that. And this navigator was very accurate. We used to, I used to time it in minutes the time arriving at the target. I used to think back, ‘Now will these bastards be asleep or will they be open or will they be up having their breakfast or what will they be doing?’ And that would depend on whether I was there three minutes before the bombing started or about two minutes after it. After they’d, after they’d dropped their first few shots off and were loading their guns again. And he told me that when we were, every target we were over instead of, he used to say, ‘Tom,’ Tom was the navigator, ‘Tom, have a look out. It’s beautiful,’ you know. ‘There’s fireworks everywhere,’ he used to say. Well there were too. You’d see them going off. Red, green, blue, black everything. Mostly, mostly red and green. And the man in charge of the operation would be circling this town. Say it’s Stuttgart or something, circling around saying, ‘Bomb the greens, bomb the greens. The reds are too far south,’ or something like that and giving us instructions. Then, ‘Go home now,’ or something or, ‘Wait,’ wait till we get to bomb the markers in or something. That didn’t, fortunately, the waiting thing didn’t happen but I used to hear him say, and sometimes he’d just tell us to take our bombs home. He said, ‘I can’t see the target. There’s too much dust and smoke. Take your bombs home and return to base.’ That was very annoying because I liked to drop the bombs. I didn’t like to land with a load of bombs on but sometimes we had to land with six and a half tonnes underneath you.
AP: Of high explosive. Thanks.
AA: Well -
AP: Question I like asking pilots. Your first solo. What happened?
AA: What the, the first solo in what?
AP: Your first ever solo. So the Tiger Moth.
AA: Oh the Tiger Moth. I did a very good landing. That’s all I can say about it. It was nice. I was, I knew a lot about aeroplanes because I used to fly, you know, model aeroplanes. Light aeroplanes. You could, you would wind the thing up, run along the concrete path and rise up in the air. Little ones. I did that for five or six years when I was a kid. I was very interested in them so I knew what they did. I knew how you bent the wings and how you bent the tail plane to make them level and that helped me a lot. A lot of these blokes had never been in an aeroplane or never seen a toy aeroplane even and had certainly never driven a car half the time. This bloke Dave Browne who was a friend of mine I was going to go and visit him and show him my, my new car, new car [laughs] a 1934 model at, at that place near Lincoln. I don’t think he had a driver’s licence. He’d never had one. He was eighteen. Just eighteen when he, he would have been when he left school. He left school and joined the air force. Got on the reserve. Nice bloke. What question did you ask me then?
AP: First solo.
AA: Oh first solo. Yeah. Well there wasn’t anything special. I liked flying. I liked, I liked flying the Tiger Moth. I knew I could fly it alright. I knew just how to fly it. So when my first solo came up he said, ‘Ok off you go.’ I just flew it up and around exactly the same as I did when I was with him. Did just the one circuit and landed it without bouncing it unduly. Some people bounced those Tigers fifteen feet into the air.
AP: I’ve done it myself.
AA: Oh have you?
AP: I have.
AA: Oh God. Well I never did. I never bounced it more than a foot or two feet at the most I don’t think.
AP: I’ve had shockers.
AA: But er I, I have flown them since the war.
AP: Yes [that was my next question]
AA: But only with an instructor. In the, in the back seat I think the instructor was. The funny thing when we were under instruction on Tigers during the war I was in the back seat and the instructor was in the front.
AP: Yeah.
AA: Well, when I flew them for a fifty dollar flight or something I was in the front seat and it was a bit unusual and the instructor was in the back. I remember on one occasion I went up in a flight in a Tiger and I was talking to the pilot and the instructor first before we went in and said, ‘I hope you’ll let me have a go at flying this thing.’ and he said, ‘Oh, yeah. Well, have you flown them before?’ I said, ‘Oh yes. Yes, I’ve flown them plenty of times.’ He said ‘Oh? Where were you flying them?’ I said, ‘Oh at Benalla.’ ‘Oh Benalla,’ he said ,’Oh.’ He didn’t seem to know what the, Benalla was the, the head office for Tiger flying in the RAF, RAAF I mean, in nineteen, what would it have been? 1942, yeah when I was flying them in Benalla.
AP: Have you flown them much?
AA: ’42 ‘43 ‘42 ‘41
AP: Have you flown much since the war?
AA: Only in passenger planes.
AP: Yeah. [?]
AA: No. I’ve never flown anything except a Tiger Moth since the war but I have flown in the Concorde from -
AP: Oh lovely.
AA: From London to, my wife too with me, Heathrow to that big airfield near New York. What is it?
AP: JFK.
AA: Hmmn?
AP: JFK.
AA: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah and we were booked to fly in a helicopter from JFK to somewhere near the centre of New York and that was because we were doing a first class trip all around the world. I didn’t intend to do it actually do it first class but the way it happened I said, ‘Oh well first class will do,’ because they said it’ll only be about, what you’ve got to pay it will only be about five hundred dollars difference from flying first class all the way from Australia to around the world. So we went first class. I think the next time I we went first class too it wasn’t that bad it wasn’t that much difference to business class really. We used to fly business class mostly. I think we did six, six trips to England. First of all cattle class and then business class and then first class but Quantas’ first class was, it was the pits.
AP: Still, still more comfortable I imagine than a Lancaster.
AA: No. The Lancaster was very comfortable. I felt more comfortable in a Lancaster than I ever felt in a Quantas first class. Do you know where they put us? As close to the toilet door as that. The two of us. Right, right opposite the toilets. The blokes used to come in and out of the toilet doing their flies up and we were sitting, sitting there. Well that was the finish. I’ve never flown in Quantas since.
AP: Oh really?
AA: That’s right.
AP: There you go.
AA: You can tell them that. You can tell them as much as you like.
AP: I have one more question for you. It’s probably the most important one.
AA: Yeah.
AP: How, what do you think Bomber Command’s legacy is and how do you want to see it remembered.
AA: I think it will all be remembered by the people who were in it alright but well I think they’ve got this new place in the Green Park. That, that does a lot for them but I can understand why the people in, up the north decided to have a memorial. They’ve probably got relatives or sons or something or fathers or grandfathers who’ve been in it and they want to make a point of it. That they get remembered for what they did and you know the fifty thousand I think RAF types who got killed in Bomber Command. I think it was a figure something like that. I think it was about three thousand Australians in Bomber Command that were killed and I’m doing something to remember them in Melbourne. I’ve organised a new boat to be built by the rowing club in the city that I’m interested in and I’m putting David Browne’s name on it.
AP: [Beautiful].
AA: Instead of mine. They usually, if someone gives them a boat, they usually put their name on it. I had, I’ve given them a boat about twenty years ago, thirty years ago with my hard earned cash and I had my name on it. Arthur Atkins, on both sides of the point. Well they’re going to put David Browne’s name on it because he was a nice bloke. Well, that’s why I think the people in Lincolnshire are doing a good thing. North Lincolnshire? Where is it again? Where are they putting this memorial? Do you know?
AP: It’s, it’s within sight of Lincoln Cathedral.
AA: Oh.
AP: It’s on a hill. I don’t know the direction. I haven’t been there myself yet unfortunately.
AA: Ah yeah.
AP: But it’s on a hill within sight of the cathedral.
AA: That’s, that’s not in the freezing north of Lincolnshire.
AP: No. I don’t think it is.
AA: No. Well that’s where I was. Lincolnshire. Well Yorkshire was worse, of course. I drove my car from, all over England. Only one thing wrong with it. Oh well no, wrong, the most, the most, the worst thing that was wrong with it was the fact that it never had a hand brake and of course on one occasion the hydraulic main operating thing busted it’s rubber washer so I had no brakes and the funniest thing was I was going along a street and you know I just used to rev the engine and drop it down a couple of cogs if I wanted to stop it. Coming around, I came down the street like I was driving the car down here with just, fairly gently and I wanted to turn right here and just as I got turning right, you know, at about ten miles an hour or something a bloke with about four, four greyhounds were walking down the street crossed right in front of me.
AP: No brakes.
AA: No brakes at all and I wasn’t in a low enough gear to make any difference and I wouldn’t have time. So do you know what I did? I put my foot out like that and dragged it along ground and that stopped it. The foot stopped it.
AP: Like a motorbike.
AA: Eh?
AP: Like a motorbike.
AA: Well I had a motorbike once. I knew how to stop that. I knew what to do with that.
AP: Very good. Well I think that’s, you’ve been talking pretty well nonstop for two and a quarter hours now.
AA: Have I?
AP: That’s a pretty good effort.
AA: I’m sorry.
AP: No. That’s excellent. There’s some really good stuff in there. This, this is one of the easiest interviews I’ve said, I’ve done because I asked you one question at the start.
AA: Yeah.
AP: And then I sat back and just listened.
AA: Yeah.
AP: And it went. I timed it. It went for an hour and fifty before you took a break.
AA: Goodness
AP: So, thank you very much.
AA: No. I’m very, very interested
AP: Very, very much.
AA: In the air force and Bomber Command. I had a, it was the best job I ever had in my life was the air force. Especially the part when I was working for the RAF.
AP: Good.
AA: They were the real air force as they said. Not the Boy Scout air force like the RAAF.
AP: Fantastic.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Arthur Atkins
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Atkins grew up in Melbourne, Australia. As a Boy Scout, he experienced a flight in an aircraft and knew he wanted to be a pilot. He transferred from the army to the Royal Australian Air Force and started pilot training in Australia. He travelled to Britain in 1943, via New Zealand and the United States of America. After further training at various stations, he was posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Kelstern. Among the operations he describes are leaflet drops over Chartres, the bombing of the Opel factory at Rüsselsheim, the Gironde Estuary, Le Havre, Frankfurt, Cologne and Stettin. He completed 32 operations. While stationed at RAF Kelstern he often visited the Plough Inn at Binbrook.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Adam Purcell
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Mal Prissick
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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02:13:42 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AAtkinsA151121
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Australia
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Rüsselsheim
Poland--Szczecin
France--Chartres
France--Gironde Estuary
France--Le Havre
United States
Germany
France
Poland
California--San Francisco
California
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
27 OTU
625 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
control tower
entertainment
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
pilot
promotion
propaganda
RAF Church Broughton
RAF Hemswell
RAF Kelstern
RAF Lichfield
searchlight
training
Wellington
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/PLarmerLO1507.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/ALarmerLO151112.2.mp3
df597d935fc6c85c187e6b8070109390
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Larmer, Lawrence
Lawrence Larmer
Laurie Larmer
L O Larmer
L Larmer
Description
An account of the resource
17 items concerning Flying Officer Laurence O'Hara Larmer (1920 - 2023, 430037 Royal Australian Air Force). Lawrence Larmer volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force and trained in Australia and Canada. He flew operations as a pilot flying Halifax with 51 Squadron from RAF Snaith. The collection consists of one oral history interview with him, wartime photographs of aircraft, aircrews and targets, his logbook, route maps, and an official certificate.
The collection was donated by Laurence Larmer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-12
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Larmer, LO
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AP: This interview is for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive is with Laurie Larmer 51 Squadron, Halifax bomber during World War II. Interview taking place at Laurie’s house in Strathmore in Melbourne. My name is Adam Purcell it is the 12th of November 2005, 2015 in fact. Laurie we might start with an easy one, can you tell us something about your story before the war growing up what you did, before you enlisted?
LL: I was born in Moody Ponds eh in 1920, September 1923 and eh in 1931 or ’32 an old uncle of my father’s, my father was a painter and paper hanger by trade, during the depression there was obviously not that much work about but eh he managed and in 1931 or ’32 an old uncle by marriage of his died and he owned a hotel in South Yarrow and he left in his will that dad was to be given the lease of this hotel at a certain rental for as long as he wanted. So eh dad without any experience in the hotel business eh we moved into South Yarrow on the corner of Tourag Road and Punt Road and eh he ran this hotel until the old aunty the widow eh realised that the rental had been set in her husband’s will and she couldn’t do anything about it. So she did the next best thing as far as she was concerned, she sold the hotel. My father then moved to another hotel in Prahran and eventually in 1935 he went to a hotel in Ballarat and I went to school, St Patrick’s College Ballarat and I stayed there until I finished my schooling in 1940 eh in 1940 eh I got a job in the Department of Aircraft Production at Fishermans Bend where they were building the Beaufort bomber. Not on technical side, eh in the pay office actually I saw a lot about aeroplanes and what have you and eh in September 1941 I got called up for, I turned eighteen and got called up for a medical examination and eh it was for the army but to avoid going into the army you could volunteer for the navy or the air force. I volunteered for aircrew in the air force and was accepted. Did another medical exam, much stricter medical exam for the air force, aircrew actually, naturally and eh I then went back to work at Fishermans Bend until I got my call up sometime in 1942 and I went into the air force. So that is my pre-service history.
AP: Actually I might close that door if we can ‘cause it is noisy outside [pause] still there but it is not as loud. Okay where were you and how old were you when you heard war was declared and what were your thoughts at the time?
LL: I was, we were at Ballarat on the 3rd of September 1939 I was not quite eh not quite sixteen. I turned sixteen I turned sixteen a couple of weeks after the war was declared like most people I thought or hoped that the war wouldn’t last long and that I wouldn’t be affected. We were so far away that eh it all seemed a bit remote as far as we were concerned. And I certainly didn’t anticipate at that stage. I knew the talk was that kids of eighteen would be called up and I knew then or I thought then, the war would be finished before eh I got eh called up, but it was not to be.
AP: I guess you covered why you joined the air force based on some sort of experience with aeroplanes em why did you move in that direction in some sort of with aircraft. Was there some sort of inspiration that this was going to happen ?
LL: No I think that, I didn’t want to go into the army, the army just seemed to walk everywhere eh the eh hand to hand fighting didn’t sort of attract me. The navy didn’t attract me, I think there is a sort of glamorous feeling about the air force at that time. The Battle of Britain had just been fought and won and the eh airmen were eh I don’t know just a little bit different, and they seemed to just attract me a bit more than the other services.
AP: Can you tell me something about the enlistment process, were there interviews or tests or how did that all happen?
LL: The tests for the army of course was fairly simple, as long as you could stand up and breathe they accepted you for the A
army and that was only for home service. The fellows who wanted to go overseas volunteered for the AIF the call-up was actually for the militia because we didn’t have compulsory service for overseas, eh compulsory callout for overseas service. Eh the air force medical was much stricter, I always remember it was done in eh a place in Russell Street on the corner of Little Column Street were where Preston Motors were for many years after the war [cough] and eh we had eye tests which were particularly hard, they tested your heart and your blood pressure and all that sort of business which seemed a bit unusual for young fellows of eighteen, sixteen, eighteen we were at the time. I passed that and there was a delay of course of some months till they caught up. We were then to be trained under the Empire Air Training Scheme. That was sometime before I was called up, and I actually didn’t go into the air force until December 1942 so it was about twelve months after I volunteered for the air force I got my call-up to report to the service.
AP: Was there anything the air force gave you to do to sort of maintain the interest.
LL: We had to do school, night school, I went to the Essenham High School for two nights a week for about eight or ten weeks eh and we did maths and a few things like that. I can’t recall all the subjects we did, it wasn’t a matter of doing exams or anything. It was just to refresh us from our school days. Did a bit of geometry and angles and things like that, probably preparing us for navigation.
AP: Did you find that sort of training useful, did it help you when you got to your initial training school?
LL: It must have helped at initial training school. I was pretty good at maths even although I say so myself. This always confused me, I was never able to explain it. Two months, after two months at Summers which was the initial training school eh they came out one day, we were all there, they said ‘The following will train as pilots’ and they read a list of names. ‘The following will train as navigators’ they read a list of names and eh ‘the following will train as wireless operators’. And the balance for gunners. How they picked us I don’t know. I can only assume I must have done very, excellently, excellent at maths and those sort of things. Those picked to train as pilots and navigators stayed at Summers for another month. We did a bit of navigation and meteorology and a few things like that. But I, so I think that going back to school, the night school probably helped to refresh an interest in these subjects and it obviously paid dividends as far as I was concerned.
LL: What memories do you have of Summers, of ITS what was a typical day, what things did you do?
AP: Eh a lot of it seemed a waste of time we both knew an aircraft, they didn’t talk about an aircraft, they talked about Morse code and that was terribly important, I couldn’t take a word of Morse code couldn’t take a letter, I couldn’t understand it. Then a couple of nights later, the Aldis lamp I couldn’t even see that, it didn’t register at all. There was no way I was ever going to be a wireless operator and it wasn’t because I wasn’t trying, I just could not, couldn’t get the dots from the dashes in the Morse code. We seemed to do a lot of marching and eh, it was probably very necessary teaching us air force rules and regulations and all that sort of business. After a while you would say, ‘when am I going to see some action, when am I going to do something, when am I going to learn something about flying?’ Particularly once you had been charged to be a pilot you wanted to get on with it. Instead of that we did an extra month eh and then after that extra month I was posted to Benellah.
AR: Benellah was the– ?
LL: Elementary Flying Training School.
AR: What happened there apart from elementary flying training?
LL: Elementary flying training field, the first month we were there. Obviously the weather or something had held up the courses before and we were dragging the chain a bit. For a month we were known as tarmac terriers. We used to hold the wing of the aircraft because of the strong winds and of course Benellah which was a very open aerodrome no runways or anything it was just big one big huge enormous paddock eh and we’d hold, one fellow on either wing, the wing of the aircraft and we’d hold it till it got round there cause the wind would get under it, the aircraft was such a light aircraft, the Tiger Moth and then we would wait till they took off. You turned your back and you would get splattered with little stones and pebbles and that eh. And there would be fellows waiting down the other end when they landed to wait and hold them there and take them round. It was quite an interesting process, we had for half a day and the other half day we did, school, eh lectures on gunnery and eh basic flying without getting in an aircraft eh and navigation and a few things like that, meteorology particularly which was good. That was interesting even although we weren’t flying we saw these aircraft and we knew only in another couple of weeks and we would be there, then we started. We were allotted to an instructor, Jim Pope was my instructor, he was a sergeant a lovely bloke eh we then continued our lectures for half a day and fly for the other half. The next day it would be alternative, you know, flying and then lectures. It was good, I suppose after about eh it’s still sharp in my log book there, must have been twelve or fourteen hours or something went over to Winton one day which was a satellite ‘drome a bit further up the highway with another instructor. After we did one or two circuits and landings he said, ‘take me over there, pull up over there.’ Pointed to a spot where he wanted to go, he said, ‘now’, he said, ‘you are on your own, do three circuits and bumps and then come and pick me up’. I thought ‘goodness gracious me, here I am on my own’, you know, I was ready to go solo. And eh I wasn’t nervous it was just the excitement of it and you know you were concentrating on remembering all the things he told you to do and all that sort of business. I did three circuits and landings and went and picked him up and he said ‘that was good, alright son.’ Then we did eh, I don’t know whether we went back to Benellah, we stayed there, that’s right and he put me out of the aircraft and took another student and eh that was, that was. Then I went back to the normal side of the pad. The next day we done a bit further advanced flying eh cross country, and a few things like that. We were there altogether three months. Normally it would just have been two months, two months flying, but we did three months actually.
AP: What did you think of the Tiger Moth?
LL: Lovely, they were a breeze now you look back on it, in those days it was a pretty big aircraft, here you were sitting in the back seat. There were two seats, one in front, the pilot sat in front there, two little cockpits. Very basic, they had a control column it was just a stick that stuck up, a throttle which you pushed here, it was very, very basic. But we were told nobody had ever been killed in a Tiger Moth, whether that was true or not I don’t know that was, that was and it was good. I remember one day we had to do a cross country, this was sort of a bit scary I thought anyway. A mate of mine we had to go from Benellah to Ochuga [?], Ochuga [?] to Aubrey then from Aubrey back to Benellah. A mate of mine came up to me Tommy Richards he used to live at Clairbourne [?] and he said, ‘you doing this cross country this afternoon?’ I said ‘yes’. He said ‘so am I’ he said, ‘stick with me I know the road.’ He knew the way and then we flew back along the river and then down the highway you weren’t supposed to do that, you were supposed to go that way and the river might have gone down here but we had no problem. Before we left we had the whole thing planned out, had a little map on our knee and had it all. We got full marks for our navigation but it was only that Tommy had lived at eh, where did he, Clairbourne.
AP: You were talking while they were about no one had crashed a Tiger Moth. Did you encounter any accidents or high jinks or near misses or things, did you know- ?
LL: No, not while I was there, no, no. The biggest problem I reckon and they warned us about it was low flying, we used to [unclear] go down low and then we will frighten this farmer down there. There might have been electric wires going across you know. And we had hanging down the wheels, they weren’t retractable wheels on a, on a eh Tiger Moth. We did a bit of low flying everybody did but eh no I didn’t go as low as some of the blokes did you know. They used to try and be real smart and fly at ground level almost but nobody while I was there.
AP: You go from FTS, next step is a service Flying Training School?
LL: Service Flying Training School we got some leave and got a telegram to report to the RTR expenses troop and eh the smarties knew where we were going. There is always a smarty in every crowd all lined up they call and he’s here and he’s there and we are going to Sydney that means we are going overseas. ‘How do you know we are going to Sydney? That’s where the bloody train’s going.’ ‘Oh right oh we are going to Sydney’, and we went to Sydney. We went to Barfield Park and eh there they kitted us out and eh ‘Don’t think because you are here that you are going overseas, you could be going to Queensland.’ Somebody said, ‘well that’s strange what did they give us Australia badges to put on there’ and then they said, ‘you have got these Australia badges but don’t put them on until you get overseas.’ That’s in case we are going overseas, I don’t know. Well we were there about three or four weeks I think eh and we did nothing and that was pretty awful. And what they do, they were waiting for a ship eh [cough] and eventually they got us all lined up one day with the kit bags we put on a train and we went to Brisbane and put on this ship there the Metsonia and eh [cough] we sailed out down the Brisbane River and out we just got outside the harbour and looking over the side we could see a submarine. ‘Goodness me I hope it is one of ours’ or was one of the Americans ‘cause we didn’t have any submarines at the time and eh we headed, they didn’t tell us where we were going. We had a fair idea it was Canada. We went to New Zealand first and picked up some New Zealanders and then went up the west coast of South America and eh North America and landed at San Francisco. At San Francisco they put us on a train, we went to Vancouver eh got off the train there and put us on one of the Canadian Pacific Railway trains. We went to a place called Edmonton in Alberta. Eh that was quite strange because we didn’t know exactly what was going to happen from there on in. There was a big heap of us there and after three or four or five days I suppose eh we got another posting. I was posted to a place called Dauphin which was in Manitoba which didn’t mean much to me at that stage. Manitoba is actually the central province of the whole of Canada. Dauphin was about ah, suppose it would be about a hundred and fifty mile north west of Winnipeg which was the capital. Then the train went through, there was nothing in Dauphin apart from the air force base and the little village really [cough]. And so when we got there eh we found that we were going to fly Cessna Cranes which was a twin-engine, little twin-engine aircraft, lovely aircraft to fly, lovely and eh that was where eh he made the point there before in crashes in Tiger Moths. I had an Australian instructor, there were a couple of Australian Instructors on the station the rest of them were Canadians. The Canadians were lovely people. The officers were friendly, they didn’t muck around with formalities and that, it was real good. Eh this Australian instructor I had was a Sergeant Lawley, Lawla, Lawley I have got it down, there we are. He didn’t want to be an instructor he wanted to get at the overseas and he was a most unfriendly fellow, but you know I was coping with him and eh one morning we got up and he and another trainee pilot had been killed night flying. It could have been me and eh and that was about the first experience I’d had with anybody sort of eh death, you know. I was nineteen years of age and you were not used to it. Anyway they gave them a full military funeral eh which was good. Then I got a Canadian instructor and then it was real great after that it was wonderful and eh I sailed through the rest of the course. And I graduated in September ’43 as a sergeant pilot, I reckon we were pretty good.
AP: So then comes a boat across to the UK presumably.
LL: Yeah, we got a bit of liberty and went down to New York and Washington which we could ill afford and eh we went to Halifax in Nova Scotia and caught a, and got a boat to, I can’t remember the name of the ship we got to England we went to England in [loud background noise].
AP: We might just wait for a moment I think [laughs].
AP: So we were talking about a boat across to UK, you were just about to embark at Halifax.
LL: The interesting part about that trip was the ship that we went on, I think it might have been the Aquitania. It was a big ship, a lot of Americans on board [doorbell interruption; laugh].
AP: Anyway let’s get back to the boat [laugh] the Aquitania.
LL: And eh there were a lot of Americans from the mid-west not only had they not been on a ship, they never even seen the ocean. A lot of those kids, they were sick all over, oh! it was awful and what we did because we were too fast for a convoy we went on our own. But they zig-zagged all day, that way and then that way all during the daylight hours eh because it takes a certain time for a submarine to line them up to fire a torpedo at them and that’s what. That didn’t worry us but it was most unusual and when it got dark we went whoosh straight ahead. And eh we lived in pretty awful conditions, it was wartime we had hammocks and had a long table that came out from the deck, from the side of the ship and if there were six blokes at the table, three either side you had to find your accommodation so one bloke would sleep on this bench there another back there. Two blokes one would sleep on the table and the other three would be in hammocks above. That’s how, and we couldn’t have showers, we couldn’t shave properly it was pretty awful. We landed at Liverpool and eh went eh got on a train, went to Brighton. We got off the train at Brighton and there was a fellow there, he was a Wing Commander Andy Swan, he was a Scotchman in the RAAF. He had apparently been in the Black Watch for many years before the war done his time, retired, came out to Australia to live and the war started. He applied for a commission and got a commission, they sent him back to England, he was ground staff what we call a shiny bummer ISD interested in special duties. He was a wing commander and he was a dreadful man, dreadful fellow. He saw us, we had been five days on the ship, unshaven, unwashed and feeling very, very lousy and he berated us on the Brighton railway station, platform. Eh he had us smartened up within no time at all, we were going to do this and what a disgrace we were. Anyway the following morning eh, no two mornings later we had a general parade in the hall and there was the padre there, the Church of England padre a fellow called Dave Bear, you might have heard the blokes talk about Dave Bear he was a marvellous fellow he put everybody at ease you know. He said ‘there are three religions in the services, RC’s odds and sods and the other buggers’, he says ‘I am one of the other buggers, if you want anything just come and see me.’ He had a sign above his shop, his store ‘abandon rank all ye who enter here’. And that is what he was like. He used to give advice on a charge or anything like that or help you to write letters home or whatever you wanted. He was a great bloke, didn’t make any difference what you were he was just a wonderful fellow. He virtually did sort of a lot, undid a lot of the evil things this Andy Swan had done. They tell a story of the fellow who finished his tour and is on his way back home and Brighton is what they called 11 PDRC, Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre. So any Australian airmen who went into England went through Brighton and when they were going home they went through Brighton and they knew and this fellow had taken the stiffening out of his cap which we all used to do, made us look a bit racy. Swan pulled him up in the street one day and said, ‘where is the stiffening in your cap?’ ‘I lost it over fucking Berlin’ whoops and kept walking. And then after we had been there for a while I got posted. I think the first posting was to a place called Fairoaks which was just near Windsor Castle, pre-war it would have been the King’s private aerodrome. This was just a way of sort of getting us back into flying again and there we flew Tiger Moths for a while. Eh back to Brighton then went off and done a PT course and then we went off and did some more flying eventually I had been up to Scotland, I was flying up there at a place called Banff eh BANFF [spelt out] was out from Aberdeen, from Inverness, out from Inverness the Scotch people were lovely eh and eh got a posting then to eh Lichfield which was 27 Operational Training Unit. The OTU was where you formed a crew. Lichfield was an Australian OTU in that all the aircrew were Australian so we got I got an Australian crew. It was an interesting thing we had the pilots in the centre, the navigators in one corner and the wireless operators and the bomb aimers and the, and the gunners in another corner [cough]. They said, ‘alright, pilots you have got to go and pick a crew.’ It was as simple as that, I didn’t know anybody who was a navigator but a bloke came up to me, ‘you don’t look a bad sort of a bloke’, and he was a wireless op, he was a bomb aimer, a fellow named Bill Hudson and eh Bill had been a used car salesman in Sydney before the war. Eh he had all the fun in the world and he said ‘stay here’, he said, ‘I will get you a navigator, I know a bloke who is a good navigator.’ He didn’t of course, he went off and he brought back a bloke and he introduced him ‘This is Ron Harmes, so wait there,’ he said. ‘I’ll get you a couple of gunners’ so he went off and got a couple of gunners. I said to him, ‘I am supposed to be picking this crew.’ And he said ‘I got it for you skipper don’t worry about it’. Then he got a eh, he got a wireless operator so eh, here we were we had a crew and I had nothing to do with it, we turned out to be good mates, we all got on very well together. A couple of them were different they eh, but we all sort of mixed in and did our job and eh. And eh there we flew Wellingtons, they were a big, heavy lumbering aircraft they really were. They had been used as a bomber during the early stages of the war but they couldn’t carry enough bombs and eh they couldn’t carry great distances, like a lot of the British aircraft the Whitleys and those sort of aircraft, eh Hampdens, twin-engined aircraft and that eh, just hopeless and the Germans had stole the marks on them because the Germans before the war, once the Nazis got in control they said, ‘who cares about the Geneva Convention, we will build the type of aircraft we need to win a war.’ The British they didn’t, they kept, the wing span couldn’t be more than a hundred feet. That is why when they eventually got the Lancasters and the Halifaxes and wing spans more than a hundred feet they couldn’t fit in the hangers because they had built the hangers to take aircraft with wing span of less than a hundred feet. The Germans it didn’t worry them they had aircraft with wing spans greater than a hundred feet. It was a silly situation but that was the way they operated eh and eh we flew these Wellingtons for a while and we were lucky and Bill was a good bomb aimer and we got highly commended for our bombing activities at training. Then eh I don’t know how many hours we did there, it’s in the log book there, we were posted to a place called Riccall eh, which was a Heavy Conversion Unit. I had been flying Tiger Moths and Cessna Cranes, and Ansons and Oxfords and what have you, you know. Then on the Wellington then boom, four-engined aircraft, it was like eh, like riding a bike and then getting driving train or something it was just sort of an enormous thing really. There we picked up our flight engineer. There weren’t any Australian engineers so we got an Englishman he was the only Englishman in the crew, good bloke too. I don’t know how many hours we did there but that is all in the log book. Then one day they said ‘right Larmer, your crew is posted to a squadron.’ ‘Oops, yeah okay, when do we go?’ ‘This afternoon’ [laugh]. So there we were on a train and eh they met us with a truck. We thought, by this time I got commission and eh they picked us up in a truck. Another crew arrived at the same time as us, this was an English crew. It was an English squadron but this other crew was an English crew, I only had the one Englishman and I, we were the only Australian crew on 51 Squadron at the time. There had been some there before and eh, we went to the orderly room, they told us where we were billeted told me what time dinner was in the officers’ mess and all that sort of business and report to the, you are in B Flight report to B Flight Office at nine o’ clock tomorrow morning. That I did and eh the squadron leader what was his name, Lodge he had nothing doing today. He introduced me to the other blokes, other pilots that were there. The bomb aimers had reported to the bombing leader and the navs to the nav leader and what have you eh, and then he called me back and said I will get you an air test, eleven o’clock. I got the crew and we done and air test at eleven o’clock. I don’t know what the point of it was, they had just done some repairs to an aircraft. Anyway we just hung around then for a couple of days. They said if you are wanted for flying, for an operation your name will be on a list in the officers’ mess. That was up at five o’clock at night you know, a couple of, we had been there about three days, and I got the list five o’clock you know. The following crews will report to the briefing room at 0600 hours tomorrow and my name was there. I went down to the officers’ mess and they said, ‘yes we’ve seen it’, so they knew, all the crew knew. And that was it were there, ready for our first operation which was a bit strange. Nobody took any notice of you, we were just another crew there and nobody sort of put their arm on your shoulder and said ‘you will be right son.’ Just eh, you were briefed, you had a meal and boom, off you go. They said, ‘you go and get dressed, you go and do this, you go and pick up your parachute, you do this, there will be a truck will take you out to your aircraft which was at your dispersal point.’ And that was it. Then eh we did another daylight and then a couple of nights later, a couple of nights later there was a list up eh one morning that there was a briefing at two o’clock and I was flying second pilot with an experienced crew. My crew weren’t going on it, just me and this other pilot went with another crew and he was in C Flight, I was in B Flight. That was a bit strange I had nothing to do except sit next to the pilot and you saw everything that was going on, the rest of the time when you were flying you were doing something, you were busy, you didn’t have time to be worried or frightened or anything like that. I don’t think I was frightened actually on this particular night. But you could see all the anti-aircraft shells exploding all around you and what have you. We got back and we were just taxiing around to a dispersal and we heard this other aircraft calling to eh traffic control V-Victor or J-Johnnie or whatever it was. ‘V-Victor overshoot.’ They had come in a bit high and they were overshooting, the second pilot, the other bloke that had arrived the same time as me, he was still a sergeant. The bomb aimer used to sit next to the pilot on take-off and landing and eh the pilot would open the throttles but then he would have to control, take the control column. So the second dickie used to hold the, hold the throttles open, apparently this bloke didn’t . He’d opened, the pilot had opened it, got onto the thing, the throttles came back, they only got, anyway it crashed, they were all killed, eight of them it was. Nothing was mentioned at debriefing, and the next day at lunch time I said ‘did somebody, what are the funeral arrangements.’ He said ‘what?’ I said, ‘the funeral arrangements for those blokes that were killed.’ He said, ‘there is no funeral, there is a war on son.’ Stone me you know these blokes that were killed in our back yard just across the road from the end of the runway. They buried them, slight, you know quickly eh but they didn’t get any military funeral or what have you it was just ‘there is a war on son.’ And that was it.
AP: Living conditions at Snaith, how, how and where did you live?
LL: Well we were billeted away from the station, of course everybody had a bike eh we were somewhere down near the local village and [cough] just had living accommodation there and as an officer and aircrew we got eh sheets which normally you didn’t get in the air force. Eh in the mess we got, we could get fresh milk and eh before and after a raid we got a meal of bacon and eggs which were luxuries in wartime England. The rest of the time eh the billets were pretty ordinary but you know you got used to them. I could never front breakfast, on one station we were on, this was just after the war we were at Leconfield and one morning for breakfast they’d have kippered herrings and the next morning would be baked beans on toast, they were, I could cop the baked beans on toast but not the kippered herrings, they were. We used to have to wait for the NAAFI which was the restaurant or café opened about eh half past ten or something to get some breakfast [cough] but basically the living conditions were pretty crude eh but that was wartime England you know, they, they couldn’t produce their own food, it all had to be imported and there were much more important things to eh to bring in to the country. But you know we survived, we complained about it mainly because we were eh used to Australian food and Australian conditions. But basically it was pretty good.
AP: Just sort of routing of that for a bit, what were your first impressions of war time England, what did you think, presumably this was the first time you were overseas?
LL: Well eh it was quite a shock, it took a bit of getting used to. When we got there in the November eh it was eh they had two hours daylight saving. Naturally you know that was to eh, you couldn’t have a shower, in Brighton the Australian Air Force had taken over two hotels, the Grand and the Metropole eh and they were eh big, real big hotels. They had stopped the lifts working, if you were on the third floor you walked up and down to the [cough] you could have a bath but the water could only ever come to a certain level. There were all those sort of restrictions you ah you put up with really. You got used to them I suppose after a while mainly because you saw the English and eh they were, they were probably worse off than we were, you know they were on rations and we didn’t have, when we used to go on leave, they used to give us the ration to give to the people we were staying with or wherever we were staying would want ration tickets. But eh you know you couldn’t drive a car, there was no petrol available for private, well there was for doctors and things like that but basically there were all those sort of restrictions. There were blackouts and we had a pretty miserable sort of an existence we found but you got used to it after, well a couple of years I was there, just over two years, just on two years, it was you got used to these sort of things. We were pretty well received the Australians they liked us, they thought we were colonials still but I think some of them still do probably. But eh we went, we were well received on the squadron eh mainly because they didn’t know how to take us. They were eh, we didn’t salute officers, we’d salute wing commanders and above but eh you were supposed to salute squadron leaders and you were supposed to salute flight lieutenants. If you were acting as a flight commander something like that, those sort of thing you know used to rile us. We used to go out of our way [emphasis] not to and that really used to get them going. They didn’t like us at all, and they didn’t know how to discipline us really, they were frightened, and we used to tell them we were subject to RAAF control from and they had headquarters in London and they would have to go through them, but they didn’t know really [cough]. But we survived I suppose.
AP: What sort of things did you do to relax if you weren’t on operations. Where did you go on leave, even not on leave, just when not on duty?
LL: Eh, not much at all, you used to hang around. When we were on the squadron and eh you see that there was nothing going today or nothing going tomorrow day, tomorrow eh you’d go to the pub in the village or you would stay in the mess. They might have a few drinks in the mess eh but eh basically we didn’t do anything with, we didn’t play tennis or cricket or any of those sort of things. I don’t know how we kept fit but we did [laugh].
AP: What sort of things happened in the officers’ mess, what did it look like first of all? What went on there?
LL: Eh very sort of strict, you didn’t sit at this table because this was where the senior officers sat and eh you as a new bloke could sit at that table up there you know. A couple of nights after I had been there a couple of days after I had been there I sat at the wrong table and they told me you know. I couldn’t say that it made any difference where you were sitting but that was what the sort of thing. This is where the senior officers sit. Not you know, when I got on the Squadron I was a pilot officer you know I hadn’t even graduated up to flying officer eh and that sort of thing sort of got to you a bit. I, I went into the flight office one morning, used to go in there, the flight commander you know, used to give him a sort of half salute. He was pretty good Colin Lodge, Plug Lodge they used to call him and eh he was on leave. I had been having a drink in the mess with this fellow I can’t think of his name now, eh he was a flight lieutenant and I had been drinking with him in the mess having a couple of beers with him. Eh I went to the flight office the next morning, I walked in and he is sitting behind the desk and eh I said ‘hello.’ And he said ‘you haven’t saluted.’ I said ‘I don’t have to salute flight lieutenants.’ And he said ‘I am acting squadron leader.’ I said ‘well you haven’t got the bloody rank, not showing it.’ Stupid stubborn you know, he said ‘I am acting flight commander and you are supposed to salute me.’ Oh I probably was supposed to salute the acting flight commander but I, as I say I had been having a drink with him the night before. And he said ‘go outside and come in again and salute me.’ I said ‘right ho.’ I went outside and went down the mess and had a shower. He never spoke to me again, never spoke to me again. Just unbelievable you know, that was the sort of thing. Eh we had one, this Bill Hudson I was telling you about the bomb aimer, we came back from a raid one day eh and after when you came back you dumped all your gear and what have you and you go up for a debriefing and you sit around the table, the intelligence officer sits opposite eh while you are waiting to go in, other crews that are there before you there had been a bit of a hold up and eh on our squadron the padres would give you either eh you could have a cocoa, or a tea, a coffee or something like that and eh an over proof rum. Well I had only one over proof rum, it nearly blew my bloody head off that was all. On this particular day, the eh two gunners didn’t drink and the wireless operator didn’t drink so Bill had two or three over proof rums. And we get in there and he was always a bit of a yapper our Bill eh there was a very attractive WAAF intelligence officer she was a flight lieutenant or a flight officer as they call them eh and eh she spoke to me first and how did we find it over the target area and did we this and that, one thing and another you know [cough] eh and then she said to the navigator and what about, did you have any trouble with your Gee box various [unclear] so and so. And then Bill he was looking at her sort of making a play for her, he had no hope and she didn’t wake up you know. He started to tell her about over the target area. Now there was flak coming up and eh and then the fighters and then the anti, the searchlights and he was wondering how he was able to do it. He was telling her this terrible bloody story and we were just about killing ourselves laughing you know and all of a sudden she woke up. It was a daylight raid and Bill had searchlights coming into his eyes you know. She didn’t think it was funny at all, I said, ‘don’t take any notice of him you know, just write down that we dropped our bombs and we got good photos of the target we reckon and so and so’. No. She wanted to put him on a charge eh for misleading and all that sort of business. Anyway I, I talked to her for some considerable time to try and break her down and I thought I had got, anyway I got to the flight office the next morning and the eh Squadron Leader Lodge said ‘what was this with your bomb aimer last night?’ [emphasis] I said, ‘oh no.’ she had reported it, he she demanded he put him on a charge. I had great difficulty restraining him from putting Bill on a charge and eh that gave us a much worse reputation than we deserved, you know. We were a good crew and we were doing a good job but eh just Bill had, had two over proof rums gone to his ruddy head. I will tell you one story it didn’t happen on our squadron eh but we heard about it in York or one of the local pubs or something. Eh after briefing and the mail all that sort of business, and you got out of the aircraft and had about quarter of an hour, twenty minutes and waited around, you put your stuff in the aircraft and the blokes would have a smoke, had a smoke. Just stand around and sort of relax waiting for time as I say, better get ready and so I can get out there, you know what time you had to take off. This wireless operator went up and eh and he said eh to the pilot, ‘I am not going skip.’ He said, ‘what do you mean you are not going?’ He said ‘I am not going’ he said. ‘You’ve got to go.’ He said, ‘I am not going.’ ‘Why?’ ‘I am not going.’ That’s all he said, so they sent for the flight commander and the flight commander sent one of the ground staff blokes off on a bike to get the -. He arrived out in his car and ‘you’ve got to go.’ ‘I’m not going.’ And that’s all he said, he wouldn’t give him any explanation or reason or anything you know, ‘I am just not going.’ Eh so they said, ‘you will be charged with desertion.’ ‘I am not going’, he said. They charged him with desertion, they locked him up eh they got a relief wireless operator and they were shot down and all killed. Eh he was court martialled and he got ten years in a military prison. I understand that he got out eh shortly after the war finished and they gave them an amnesty those blokes [cough]. But apparently from what I heard, what I subsequently found out later on eh that was all he ever said, ‘I am not going.’ He didn’t tell them why or, or that he wasn’t. He’d been, it wasn’t his first flight, he’d been before, eh two or three times before eh he just said he wasn’t going. Now I don’t know if he had a premonition or what but eh he survived and the other blokes didn’t and that was it. There is not much more I can tell you Adam, I think.
AP: There is one other thing, well there is two questions in particular that I have for you but one I have find out is, on your wings here is a little Guinness pin.
LL: [laugh]
AP: I am guessing there is a story behind that.
LL: On one leave we went to, went to Ireland eh and eh and one day there was a tour of the Guinness Brewery in Dublin. We had to go over in civvies but they knew we were airmen because we had our air force trousers and open neck shirt, blue shirt and sports coat which the army, air force store had provided for us. That was the only way we could get into, get into eh Southern Ireland because it was a neutral country. Eh this fellow said ‘you want to, give you this you know, Guinness badge, it will bring you luck, wear it for luck.’ I used to wear it on my battle dress, I just pinned it onto the eh onto the wing after I got rid of the battle dress at the end of the war, that was all.
AP: Been there ever since.
LL: [laugh]
AP: Okay there is another question that I want to ask as well. Was there any superstitions or [? voodoos] on 51 Squadron, rituals that people would do that you were aware of, for luck I suppose?
LL: No one thing they did eh they did, we had to do thirty flights, thirty trips for a, for a, for a tour eh and anybody that was doing their thirtieth trip, you knew but you would never say to the bloke ‘is this your last trip?’ I said it to one bloke ‘is this your last trip?’ [emphasis] He very near hit me. That was a very bad sign, no I don’t think there was, don’t think there was anything like that eh, not that I can recall, no.
AP: Okay. Final question and probably the most important em, how in your view is Bomber Command remembered, what sort of legacy?
LL: We fellows in Bomber Command eh [pause] during the war you didn’t sort of think much about how good you were and all that sort of business but when you saw the figures at the end of the war of the casualties and eh this is a classic example. The casualties there, just the Australian casualties that is eh when you saw you realised they had a loss rate of something round about forty per cent. It was a bit higher for the English, forty two or three per cent you know it was pretty awful and eh Harris was treated very shabbily by the British Government at the end of the war. Harris apparently, not apparently actually he was a brilliant organiser absolutely brilliant but apparently he was a dreadful bastard he used to argue eh and he would refuse. They would tell him a target say on Monday, they would have to get a couple of days in advance obviously to plan up and how many aircraft they would need, which way they would go and all that sort of business. Eh and he would tell them he wouldn’t go, that ‘we are not going to that place.’ You know. Just refused to, he would argue with Churchill, he would argue with the Air Board, he would argue with the Air Ministry eh he was one of those sort of fellows but he was always right. They wouldn’t admit it of course but eh ‘we are not going there, you want us to go there because this suits you after the war you know, so we are not going there, but we will go there.’ They said ‘no we don’t want to go there till next week.’ ‘Well we are going this week.’ You know, and he would plan it and that would be a very successful raid and it would have done the job you know eh. And at the end of the war all the chiefs of all the commands like Fighter Command, Coastal Command and Training Command were all made Marshals of the Royal Air Force, Harris wasn’t they left his as an air chief marshal. He resigned his commission immediately got on an aeroplane and went, took his wife and daughter to South America, to eh South Africa eh I don’t know whether he ever went back. Somebody told me once that he thought years afterwards that they eh had relented and made him a marshal of the Royal Air Force. I am not sure about that I never heard anything about that. Eh and eh that without any publicity the fact that these three blokes got, or four blokes got air, or marshals of the Royal Air Force which was equivalent of a field marshal eh and Harris didn’t. We all felt a bit, ‘is that what they think of us, is that really?’ We had the idea that we won the war, Harris gave us this impression. We are doing this as opposed to the American Eighth Air Force eh, and they were sort of a bit at loggerheads, they didn’t do any daylight, eh night time flights they only did daylights the eh Americans and we did daylights and nights you know, whatever it didn’t make any difference. We went out over the North Sea and fly for hours over the North Sea without any landmarks eh to check your position eh. We reckoned that Bomber Command had done an enormous job and they had, there was no two ways about it eh and a lot of us sort of felt well, the bulk of Bomber Command felt let down, eh really. Fighter Command got a lot of publicity early in the war Churchill went on with this ‘never was so much owed by so much, many to so few’. Eh but their work finished in September ’41. And they didn’t really do anything further until eh the invasion. They went over with, a bit of protective force for the invasion forces but basically they didn’t do anything. Eh we never had any fighter escort, never, the Americans had fighter escorts they used to take them over there and then meet them on the way back but we never had any. So as far as Fighter Command was concerned they did nothing [emphasis] for three years during the war. Bomber Command flew in operational flights from the day the war started or the day after the war started until the day after the war finished, really. So that was a bit of a let-down, really. And then eh persevered it took seventy odd, sixty, seventy years before we got a little clasp that said Bomber Command, the Bomber Command Association like the old boys of Bomber Command like their association in England, they tried for years to eh get some recognition and they eh tried to get us awarded the eh congress, eh the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal, CGM, eh they eventually knocked it back completely to ‘no’, said logistically couldn’t be done and all this sort of business and they went on and had a million reasons for it. And then they said well eh ‘we’ve got these ribbons.’ But no what does that show eh I’ve got a ribbon France, Germany Star which shows that I was in operations, but doesn’t show that I was in Bomber Command. So they said ‘we will give you a Bomber Command [doorbell interruption]. That’s typical.
LL: I rang our honours and awards section in Canberra week after week after week and I’ve given up. ‘Well’ they said, ‘your application is on hold.’ And I said, ‘why would it be on hold?’ ‘I don’t know why Mr Larmer but it is on hold.’ I said, ‘well get it bloody off hold.’ Eventually she then came back a couple of days later, ‘no, no it’s ok.’ I said ‘there couldn’t have been any bloody doubt about it, you know. You have got the exact figures and you have a copy of my log book’ and all that sort of business. ‘We are sorry about that Mr Larmer.’ ‘Now’, I said, ‘now how long is it going to take?’ ‘Oh it shouldn’t be very long now.’ Anyway eh I’d been waiting, oh, from the time I applied it was seventeen months and a mate of mine said, ‘why don’t you get onto John Find?’ I said, ‘no, no John Find couldn’t do anything.’ Anyway the next thing I know I get a ring from John Find’s producer. And eh I said ‘who told you?’ ‘Mr Bill Burke a friend of mine’. I said ‘Oh no, I said I told him I wasn’t, didn’t want to.’ And she said, ‘John would like to speak to you about it.’ Anyway he spoke to me and he sort of eh said, ‘are you serious, you know you have been waiting seventeen months?’ and I said, ‘yeah’ I said, ‘it doesn’t have to be fairly long, because I am ninety years of age, if it don’t get it soon it doesn’t matter.’ And he said, ‘no we’ll get it.’ And eh anyway he rang me back the next day, she rang me back the next day she said ‘John wants to speak to you again.’ He said ‘I have been speaking to the assistant minister eh, and eh he said within six weeks.’ And I said ‘ I don’t know what you drink in that place, but if you believe him, you know.’ I said ‘they won’t have it in six weeks.’ Two weeks later I got it, we got it you know. He rang me and said ‘Oh Mr Larmer your clasp for your Bomber Command clasp is coming through, you know it will be sent it down to you in the next week.’ Two weeks it took and I spoke to John Find afterwards to thank him and I said ‘I, I can’t understand it you know’. He said ‘Laurie they are frightened of us, we can give them bad publicity’, he said, ‘they don’t want any.’ He said, ‘we could have made them look very foolish.’ He said ‘and that is what we were prepared to do’, he said, ‘and they know it’, he said, ‘it is an awful way to exist.’ He said, ‘you couldn’t embarrass them but we could.’ Isn’t that terrible really and that was the thing. I wasn’t so much the fault of the people here in Australia, the people in England hadn’t done anything about it. It took an assistant minister here to get onto somebody in England to get them. They only had to put a fifty or sixty or a hundred of them in a box you know, it wouldn’t be as big as that, to get them out here and that’s what happened. So you know that’s what happened. Overall eh we reckon that Bomber Command and probably we are a bit unreasonable but I reckon we got a bit of a, you know rough end of the pineapple. Because eh towards the end of the war all the operations in the last two years of the war all the operations with Bomber Command all the news on the, on the BBC was six hundred of their aircraft went to Nuremburg last night, ten of our aircraft are missing. That was another thing, ten of our aircraft, but it was seventy men. Even meant you know you go on a raid and say three out of their aircraft went to Dortmund and they did bomb the railway yards and whatever they might have done you know. Five of their aircraft are missing that was thirty five men and that, that sort of eh took a bit of getting used to. Eh I could see their point from a psychological point of view everything was done to protect the morale, or build up the morale of the British people eh but eh it gave you the impression that aeroplanes were more important than blokes [ironic laugh] probably in war time they had plenty of blokes but were short of aircraft you know. There you are, alright you have heard all of that?
AP: I think we have heard all of that. Thank you very much it has been a pleasure for the last couple of hours.
LL: [laugh]
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ALarmerLO151112
Title
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Interview with Lawrence Larmer
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:09:51 audio recording
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Adam Purcell
Date
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2015-11-12
Description
An account of the resource
Lawrence Larmer was born in Australia in 1920. After completing school he went to work on the Beaufort aircraft in the Department of Aircraft Production. He was called up in 1942 and volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force to avoid the army. His initial training on Tiger Moth aircraft was followed by further training in Manitoba, Canada. He graduated as a sergeant pilot in 1943 and was posted to Great Britain. He describes conditions at 11 Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre, Brighton. At 27 Operational Training Unit, RAF Lichfield, he crewed up before posting to 1658 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall. His first operational posting was to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. Lawrence Larmer discusses in detail the process of crewing up, of relations between personnel on the station, officers’ living conditions, and a case of desertion. He also discusses his views on Sir Arthur Harris and recounts his experience of applying for the Bomber Command clasp.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Mal Prissick
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Canada
Great Britain
England--Brighton
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Manitoba
United States
England--Sussex
Conforms To
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Pending review
1658 HCU
27 OTU
51 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
coping mechanism
crewing up
debriefing
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
mess
military discipline
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Lichfield
RAF Riccall
RAF Snaith
superstition
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/365/5764/WardM [Pesaro].jpg
d9a2d9c693790af82307dda6f15eb90a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/365/5764/AWardM151214.2.mp3
7d77d7598db6b62a6f0d3db383dffb89
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Ward, Mary
Mary Ward
Elsie Mary Ward
E M Ward
Mary Brown
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Three oral history interviews with Elizabeth Mary Ward (893293, Women's Auxiliary Air Force), her dog tags, an aeroplane broach and a photograph album. Mary Ward was a cook but re-mustered and was promoted becoming a map officer. She served with Bomber Command at RAF Driffield between 1940 and 1944 before being posted to Coastal Command.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Mary ward and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-04-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Ward, EM
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Monday the 14th of December. We’re talking with Mary Ward about her experiences and we’re in Crowthorne. So, Mary could you start off with your earliest recollections please and then just keep going from there.
MW: Earliest recollections would be in Bloxham and possibly five or six years old. I lived with my mother’s sister, her husband and her brother in a thatched cottage in Bloxham. I went to school at the C of E school in Bloxham until I was eleven and then to Banbury. I left school at fourteen and a half and worked in various jobs to do with lady’s maid for Lady Burnham, Hockley Heath and then decided to become a nursery governess. I went to the nursing home in Sutton Coldfield on recommendation and was at the time was looking after a dyslexic, what they called, a dyslexic child, a two year-old who was unable to speak, as part of my training. I moved out of the nursing home to live with that family to take care of that child and stayed there for a few years, a couple of years possibly and, and then moved on to another similar post with an older child. This was in Sutton Coldfield. On September the 3rd war broke out, 1939. And later on that year we, my friend and I decided that we would join the forces. We wrote to the RAF and were refused on the grounds that they didn’t have any particular job for someone who’d been a nursery maid really and, but we applied again in the early in January that year in 1940 and we were both accepted but unfortunately my friend decided, her parents decided, that it wasn’t for her so I went on my own to, I can’t tell you the date I just don’t remember the date but it was, it would be March 1940. I went for training at Uxbridge, three weeks training. I’ve very little recollection of that but then I was posted. My first posting was to Driffield in North Yorkshire which we didn’t have a complete uniform, there wasn’t enough to go around so we, we had to wait to be, to have a complete uniform but we did have the stockings and the shoes but we didn’t have battle dress until much later. We were, the RAF at that time had moved the civilians from their quarters and we occupied the civilian quarters RAF housing on the periphery of the air force really and we shared a house with oh perhaps four or five of us in a house. I was then general duties and was given a job in the RAF officers’ mess looking after the officers’ needs. Really, the post and anything else that they needed to know to get to, to get from one officer to another or to the group captain or whatever. It was quiet, fairly quiet. Five miles from Bridlington and very little activity until the 15th of August when we had a daylight raid. Fifteen aircraft came over at half past one in the afternoon. I was, I was just at the time helping with the lunch and helping, doing, manning the phone of course and flying control wanted to speak to the group captain immediately. I had seen the group captain not a couple of minutes before but I couldn’t see him just at that moment and I was running about trying to find him. At that particular time in the RAF you didn’t, flying control didn’t sound the siren unless the group captain had given permission and we, they desperately needed to sound the siren. These aircraft were approaching from Bridlington, five minutes flying time away possibly. To sound the siren. I ran around trying but in the end, without his permission, they did sound the siren. By that time it was too late for the officers’ mess. We were completely bombarded. Absolutely flattened. I was pushed in to the shelter by a couple of officers. Finally, we came out and I was helped out by the young Group Captain Cheshire, Pilot Officer Cheshire who had just arrived at the station a couple of days before me. And we were all very shaken. It was, it the dust and the mess that was so difficult to take in. I don’t know how much of this you want but I feel -
CB: Keep going.
MW: That it’s, it’s possibly important that you know that. Leonard Cheshire said to me, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘I’m going, I’m on duty to go to the sick quarters.’ We had a roster for duties, sick quarters and he said, ‘Oh.’ I said, ‘Do you think they’ll need me up there? And he said, he looked at me and said, ‘No. I don’t think they’ll need you really. I think they’ll manage without you.’ So, we did, we split up and went, I went back to the billet and my friend who was an accountant, I said, ‘I don’t like living on the periphery here now,’ I said, ‘It’s too far out. I’ll come in to your, into the quarters with you.’ So I moved in that night. But we tended to recover quite quickly because we all went to see Bob Hope in “Riding Down to Rio” or something during the evening but the station was a complete washout. The ammunition had been all gone. The aircraft hangars had been hit, Cheshire’s aircraft had been, was not, we couldn’t, we couldn’t fly from there so the following day we moved to Pocklington. This was 102 and 78 squadron I think and 58. We moved to Pocklington and did a little flying from there but the one thing I haven’t said about, about Driffield is most of the flying at that time we were dropping leaflets in France and Germany. There were hardly any bombing being used at all. We didn’t have any did we? But during my little while at Pocklington I was asked to consider re-mustering and they were very, very short of cooks. Would I take on a cook’s course? So, reluctantly I did. I went to Melksham and that would be in the September straight into the Battle of Britain and I can’t tell you, I have to say this but I was there for four weeks, five weeks. I passed the course but I have no recollection whatsoever. Absolutely nothing. I can’t tell anyone because I don’t know anything. It was the sheer volume of aircraft, the noise night and day in the shelter in the Battle of Britain. We couldn’t, we couldn’t cope. How I passed the course I don’t know but we did. And then I was posted back to Linton on Ouse. At Linton -
Other: Mary, sorry but the nurses have come.
CB: We’re just pausing for a bit because the health visitor has come.
[Pause]
CB: We’re just talking about early stages of living in Bloxham and the lack of facilities as we know them today. So what was the house like and what were the facilities?
MW: The house was a fourteenth century thatched cottage with a stream running at the bottom with a loo situation, situated down at the bottom of the garden with two seats. The water we got from the spring in order to flush it, try and flush it down. From the, actually from the river. From the stream. Yes, we had, we had a spring in the garden from which we obtained our drinking water, always had the drinking water. You had to be, you had to go and fetch it from the, from the spring and bring it up. We had no gas, no electricity until just before the war and we had oil lamps and candles for lighting in Bloxham. Gas has never been, never come to Bloxham at all. We were too far out for that but, and, but we did keep our own hens and during the war we actually had pigs, a couple of pigs for food. The garden, we were always almost self-contained because we had so much vegetables which we, which we preserved during, during the summer for the, to carry us through the winter. Beans, potatoes, carrots, everything that could be preserved we did and we kept. So, it was really there, wasn’t, when the war came we didn’t have a great deal of difficulty in, in, in maintaining our own food. I have to say when I went on leave during, during the war we, we didn’t really go I had everything I needed really. Really good bacon, eggs and fried bread and things for breakfast which was good after the RAF food [laughs]. How much else do you want me to say?
CB: Well that was just to get an understanding of what it was like. Yes.
MW: Of what it was like.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes.
CB: Right. So we’re now talking, we’ve talked about your training as a cook.
MW: Oh yes.
CB: At Melksham.
MW: Yes.
CB: And so you returned to Pocklington.
MW: No. I returned to Linton on Ouse.
CB: Oh Linton on Ouse.
MW: Yes.
CB: Okay.
MW: Into the sergeants’ mess.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. In the sergeants’ mess. That would be possibly about well, August 15th. End of August, September. I was still in the sergeants’ mess for my birthday in November. So that was, but cooking in the RAF was, it, you might be interested to know that it is, it’s quite different from cooking at home or possibly in a hotel. You did, the shifts were from six until two. Eight hour shifts. And when you arrived you were, you were allocated one or the other dishes in which you were in charge of. At that time we had a civilian chef. The RAF provided, were, had quite a few civilians. I worked with two. The chef in the sergeants’ mess and later on, much later on in the map office at Shawbury, they were both civilians. The chef would say, ‘You’re allocated to do the eggs.’ If it was the morning shift do the eggs and that’s all you did. That was you were in charge of the eggs. And in order to get enough eggs for hundreds of people, of RAF, fried they would have large, very large containers and you just drop the eggs in. At least two dozen at a time in to these very large containers and you looked after those, looked after the eggs. Sometimes you were asked to make sandwiches but on the whole that was all you did. That was your job for that, for the shift, doing that. And the afternoon shift from two you were doing a meal for the evening or for tea. You would often get put on puddings. I didn’t like doing the, doing the meats so I asked used to ask the chef if I could do the puddings. So, I learnt to make pastry there and I’m quite good at pastry even now [laughs]. Yes, it was quite different. And this is the most important part of my RAF story what I’m going to tell you now so if you, if you don’t hear what I say do ask me again because this is very important but I’d been in the R --, in the sergeants’ mess a couple of months and I was used to being, being, putting up the rations for the flying aircrew. The officers’ mess and the sergeants’ mess provided rations for the flying, for flying that evening alternatively and on one occasion the chef said, ‘Will you take the, the rations for flying tonight over to the intelligence office.’ I said, ‘Yes I will go over with the, to the,’ so, I went in the afternoon to the intelligence office with the rations for that night’s flying and I went into the intelligence office and I was introduced to the squadron leader and he said, ‘Where have you come from?’ And I said, ‘From the sergeants’ mess. I’ve brought your rations for flying this evening, for the crew this evening.’ ‘Ah,’ he said, ‘Well, what do you do in the sergeants’ mess?’ I said, ‘I cook’ or, ‘try to cook and, and do make sandwiches and do things like that.’ And he looked at me and he said, ‘Now, you don’t wish to do that all your RAF time do you?’ He said, ‘Will you come and work for me?’ I said, ‘I can’t do that. I’d have to re-muster.’ ‘Oh no,’ he said, ‘What do you know about maps?’ I said, ‘Very little.’ He said, ‘Well you’ve been to school haven’t you?’ ‘Yes. Yes.’ He said, ‘Where is the mouth of the Danube?’ So, I thought and I said, ‘Well is it in the Black Sea?’ He said, ‘That’ll do.’ And he said, ‘Go and tell your WAAF officer I want you to report here tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.’ I protested. He said, ‘No,’ he said, ‘Please. You, I want you here tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.’ Now, you know about the establishment. You know what you have to do to re-muster. My chef made a fuss because I was being, being, being told by Ivor Jones to go to the intelligence office. He said, ‘He can’t take my staff.’ I said, ‘Well that’s what I have to do.’ The WAAF officer made a fuss because I hadn’t re-mustered but Ivor Jones was an ex-army colonel, lieutenant colonel in the Indian army retired and he was head of intelligence at Linton and his word just went really. And so I went to Gloucester on a two, a course for two days. I came back with two stripes and that was it. He said to me at the time the establishment in the intelligence office is for one map corporal. You won’t be able to get any further unless I recommend you for a commission which he did and which I refused but that is a later stage but that, and I knew from then that I would never be able to get anything further than a corporal. That didn’t worry me. And so we settled down and it’s maps. Geography was really I would say my, my best subject at school and I did get along with maps but they were hard, hard to deal with because they were all rolled up. The maps and the charts. The target maps were quite small and we didn’t have very many because we hadn’t, we hadn’t produced them like they had in Germany. I mean they were prepared and we weren’t.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Erm my duties were really, at that time, nine in the morning until five or six in the evening except for when they were flying. The flying, I had to be available for briefing in case they hadn’t, they needed extra maps and certainly for interrogation which was in the middle of the night of course. On returning. Shall I go on about that?
CB: Please go. Yes.
MW: Yes. Well it was a very emotional job. Very emotional. It meant writing up names on the blackboard and having to rub them out the next day because they hadn’t returned. This went on night after night except when it was really bad weather. The boys, the young boys came to the office for maps or for a chat. Many of them didn’t wish to go to Berlin or didn’t wish to go anywhere. Then I would make them a cup of tea, give them a cigarette and say, ‘I’ll be here when you come back’ knowing perfectly well possibly that they weren’t coming back. But on other occasions when they weren’t flying we had very happy times in York. In Betty’s Bar in York. They, they, but I have to say it was a very emotional time for me. Everybody smoked. The air was full of smoke always and –
[pause]
The other thing that we had to contend with was the bombing of the airfield. Bombing of the airfield kept continually in 1940, the end of ’42 and ‘43. Cheshire came back one night and said, ‘It’s worse here than it was in, than we’ve done, we’ve seen in Germany,’ because we’d had such bad raids. At that stage the RAF moved the WAAF off the station at night. We moved, I moved to a house at Newton on Ouse. A country house. And I had to cycle up in the middle of the night for interrogation and the other place that was requisitioned was the Beningbrough Hall, 35 Squadron took Beningbrough Hall and -
CB: Keep going.
MW: That was quite nice because we had little parties down there with the squadron and we, there’s a small village across the Ouse called Nun Monkton and we had to go across in a sort of canoe thing, a very small boat. Get someone to row you across and we had a really nice meal of egg and chips over in that, if you could find someone to pay for it for you [laughs]. Um -
CB: Just on that topic then. How much did you get paid?
MW: Um.
CB: Roughly.
MW: Not a lot.
CB: No.
MW: I’ve got a book that tells me that but I don’t remember it very well um but a corporal, I was a special duties, a map clerk special duties you see. I probably missed that and so I did get a little bit more than, than if um -
CB: Ok. So could you tell us what the role of the map clerk special duties was?
MW: The role?
CB: Ahum.
MW: Well just to look after the maps really and to help out in the intelligence office if I was needed. We did, we did have special duty men but I was the only WAAF involved in the intelligence at that time. We did have map WAAF officers and I’ll come to that at a later stage. I was, Ivor Jones recommended me for commission which I refused on the grounds that I preferred to stay where I was and I didn’t really want to be an administrative. I don’t know, I don’t, I can’t cope with admin at all really but he thought I would be able and on two occasions he did recommend me for commission but I refused on both occasions as I wanted to be able to stay there. Would you like to know a bit about what we did when we were off duty?
CB: Absolutely.
MW: The, the, we had an inspection, a kit inspection, once a month at which everything had to be laid out. I don’t know if you know about the beds but the beds we called biscuits. We had three erm like squares. I think they contained straw or something like that or that kind of thing and there was an iron frame of the bed and there were three biscuits that you, and then your sheets and your blankets and every morning before you left the hut, in my case with being shift working I didn’t, I could get away with it but every morning you had to stack those biscuits into three. Fold your blankets, fold your sheets and everything and put on that every morning. The WAAF officer went around and if they found you hadn’t done that you were in for trouble and um well we had kit inspection once a month but a lot of the time we lost something or forgotten it so while the WAAF officer was down this end we would, somebody would go around and replace it some, what was missing but those evenings turned out to be quite good really because we sat around the fire. We had these, these slow burning stoves, black stoves, this was in the Nissen hut. This, because this was later, after, you know when I was still in the, well I was at Linton for three and a half years you see but most of that time I was in a modern, in RAF quarters or in wooden huts which were a little bit better than the, than the Nissen huts but at a later stage I was in Nissen huts and they were, were not easy to, to heat you know. There was no heat.
CB: Ahum.
MW: We had to go down the road almost to go to the loo or to get a bath. We were allowed four inches of bath. There was a line all the way around the bath, four inches of water and you could, if you were lucky to get a bath. It wasn’t always easy because there wasn’t enough water to go around. But on the whole life was, it, it, I have to say it was very happy. The RAF did take on you as a person, a young person who had left their parents and they did look after you. You certainly got cautioned if you did things wrong and you certainly got, you were confined to barracks if you didn’t, if you did anything really bad. But on the whole you could get away with being a few minutes late on your pass at the guard house, in the guard room. Christmas was good. We always looked forward to Christmas because the officers’ mess always turned out and they waited on us always with the, with the food. They tried to do as much as one could with the lack of resources in those days but you usually had a fairly reasonable Christmas dinner and as I say it was good fun with the officers waiting on us. Dances. We had sergeants’ mess dances, officers’ mess dances which unless you were non-commissioned officers you weren’t allowed to go to those unless you were invited specially. And always the pictures. Always had the pictures. We were issued at Uxbridge with a mug and a knife and a fork and a spoon which we all christened our irons. You’re smiling. You know about irons don’t you?
CB: Absolutely.
MW: And if you got to the mess without your irons well you had to go back for them because they didn’t supply them. On thinking about this and I thought well it’s really quite hygienic because you’ve got, you were responsible for cleaning and looking after your irons, your mug and your irons but you weren’t expected to lose those.
CB: What was the mug made from?
MW: Hmmn?
CB: What was the mug made of?
MW: Oh is it -
CB: Was it metal?
MW: Enamel.
CB: It was enamel.
MW: Enamel. Yes.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes, yes. White enamel.
CB: Ahum.
MW: And they did provide pyjamas, shoes. Shoes were dreadful, absolutely ruined my feet because they were so hard and everybody complained. Stockings, knickers, vests, everything. We had everything provided that you needed and in a way now one thing I hate getting dressed in the morning now because you don’t know what to put on. In the RAF you always knew what to put on because it was always that’s what you wore, you see. The washing was difficult cause we couldn’t, but we did manage to find women in the village who would do a bit of washing for us but we always took our collars to the Chinese. The Chinese had various laundries in, in York and we took, because they came back nice and stiff you see.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But what people don’t realise, I think how difficult it was then because we had two studs. One for the back. The collar was separate from the shirt you see and you had to put this collar stud in the back of your shirt and pull it around and then there’s another stud there at the front to put your, to do it up and then get your tie on after that. It wasn’t easy [laughs] but we, you get, you did get used to it. I think we enjoyed it mainly because we were young. We couldn’t, we couldn’t have done it over thirty.
CB: Ahum.
MW: No. But none of us were over thirty anyway so that didn’t really - Now, where do I go from there?
CB: Ok, so we touched briefly on the social side.
MW: Yes.
CB: So on the station -
MW: Yes, well I think-
CB: There was a cinema on the station was there?
MW: Things like when Gee came in. Yes -
CB: The navigation aid -
MW: At Linton we were the first to have Gee and I had special maps which were an absolute nightmare to look up because it was so secret at the time. We had to look after that. We were the first Halifaxes at Linton to have cameras available.
CB: This is the bombing camera.
MW: Yes. Bombing cameras. Not that easy to begin with and I did do a bit of, of the research on the photographs that came back. I have to tell you that there were very, very many that never went anywhere near the target.
CB: Absolutely, but one of the reasons for having the camera was to identify -
MW: Absolutely. Yes.
CB: That the target had actually been hit.
MW: Yes but then of course it all got better. It really did and then by ‘43 things really did hot up.
CB: Right.
MW: And we began to get control of things then. The, we had the thousand bomber raid from Linton. Every available aircraft they could pull out of anywhere went that night. Yes. Leonard Cheshire was there all the time. Most of the time actually. He, he was always good fun.
CB: Which squadron was he?
MW: Always danced with the wall flowers [laughs]. And he, yeah and very unassuming and a really charming person. I’ll tell you about when they went to, Cheshire and another went, they won, they tossed up. They wanted some pilots to go up to Canada to bring back Liberators for us to use. Cheshire won the toss up with another pilot. They went off. Quite not quite what they expected it was quite a poor boat that they went out on but they, they managed to go and get there. When they got there to Canada they hadn’t, they hadn’t the Liberators ready because they had to do, have a little bit of training so they were given some leave and he went off, they went off to New York for some leave and Cheshire met an ex-film star and they were having a really good time and this was a lady called Constance Binney and she was twenty years older than Leonard but on the spur of the moment in the few days that they were there they got married. Everybody was really, really sad when, but it obviously wasn’t going to work. It did work for a while and he, he rented, they rented a cottage in Marston Moor and then I think they had a railway carriage in Marston Moor and this was really funny because she was very glamourous and she was a lovely pianist in the mess. She used to play the piano beautifully. And very sociable of course. She, she didn’t get on too well in the, in the cottage and I had a friend who was in charge of the telephones. Telephone is downstairs from my office upstairs and we, as telephonists, could, we could always plug into a conversation. You had to pull the plug back and leave it open and you could hear what the conversation was. Now, we did. When Constance was on the phone we often used listen in to what Cheshire and Constance was, one day she was in a real state because she’d, Cheshire had shot a pheasant because he had somebody coming for supper and she said, she said she had put this thing in the oven and it was making a terrible smell. She couldn’t understand why it was making a terrible smell. Do you know? She left the innards in. But no we were very naughty. Not all the time but occasionally my friend, she would pull the plug back and listen in to the conversation. So we just um -
CB: In your office, was in the control tower was it? Or where?
MW: Yes. In, in -
CB: On the first floor?
MW: Yes, downstairs to begin with. I was in, I was always in headquarters and I was next door to the group captain to begin with. That was a small office. And then one day they moved me upstairs. The intelligence, I could take you blindfold in there now. The intelligence office was on the right-hand side, upstairs adjutant here and briefing room there. All right across the front of the building and my office was the middle one and the intelligence office was on the right-hand side so we were all together really and that made it easy for us to, for me to work when they came back.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Because they were interrogated in the briefing room and then came in to me to, I had to issue aids to escape and things like that. And get all those things back from them.
CB: So were you briefing aircrew before they left as well as debriefing them -
MW: Were they?
CB: Were you briefing aircrew before they left as well as debriefing them?
MW: No.
CB: When they returned. Or just the debrief?
MW: We, they were, the briefing was always on its own you know and then but they all went out together you know in varying, in two or three-minute intervals so that what were coming back did come back. They were, we were, they were debriefed in, in or interrogated in the briefing room. Yes.
CB: And did you sit in on all the debriefing?
MW: No I was making tea but I did do. Yes I did go in if Ivor Jones asked me go in and -
CB: Okay.
MW: And sort out anything like that.
CB: Yes.
MW: But I wasn’t always in on the interrogation.
CB: Right. So -
MW: I know I was in on the briefing because the boys used to all come up together. I went up with the maps, with the target maps one day, one evening, and I got in there, they were in there and there was a man in civilian clothing in there and I said, ‘What are you doing here?’ No civilians. It was very, very secret and hush hush and I said, ‘What are you?’ He said, ‘I’m the met officer.’ ’Cause they were still in civilian clothes in those days you see until quite late on in the war. They -
CB: Oh right.
MW: They weren’t given status to wear uniform but seeing a civilian in the briefing room when we were just about to do, to do a briefing that, and that really threw me a bit.
CB: Ok -
MW: I’ll tell you about Douglas.
CB: Douglas Bader.
MW: Douglas. June the 12th 1942. We’d been seeing each other for about two months and we had been out to York to the pictures the night before. He took-off the following day to an advance base to reconnaissance on the Bay of Biscay looking for minesweepers of course and we’d been out the night before and we’d got engaged. I didn’t have a ring then but, and I said I wouldn’t, we wouldn’t even think about marrying until the war was over. That wasn’t. Plenty of girls did but it wasn’t, it wasn’t really the right thing because they, we lost so many. Well you can say how many -
CB: Yes.
MW: We lost, it really wasn’t the right thing because he often left you with a baby or you know, as a young, a very young widow but we, we, we agreed on this and of course the following day, following evening I was on duty waiting for them to come back and he didn’t and there was that period between, which was the worse really, between when they should have been back and the waiting for them to come back. The wait. A couple of hours and they didn’t come back.
CB: Ahum.
MW: So what I did or what most of us did if we’d been on night duty we, you were just too tensed up to sleep. It was no good. You were supposed to go to sleep but you couldn’t do that. It was, we were just so tensed up with everything that we used to go into York and I quite liked riding at the time so used to go out and have a ride or get, try and get a meal or something just to try and get relaxed because I would be on duty again the next night you see possibly and -
CB: Where was he stationed?
MW: Pardon?
CB: Where was he stationed?
MW: At Linton.
CB: He was.
MW: Yes. But, at 58 squadron.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes [pause]. That was a Wellington.
CB: And what was he doing mainly?
MW: He was a navigator.
CB: Right.
MW: Observer. Yes.
CB: Right. And what happened?
MW: Well I think possibly they ran, they mistook the cloud base and ran into the cliff.
CB: Oh.
MW: And that is why, no one knew, his mother didn’t know, we didn’t know until, I didn’t know until fairly recently, eight years ago when I asked. This is, this is digressing really –
CB: That’s ok.
MW: But I, until my cousin was here and I said would you like to have a look on your internet and see if you can see this young man’s name and I gave him the number and the rank and everything and he came back to me the next morning and said, ‘That was easy.’ He said, ‘There’s only one of that name in the whole of the records.’ He said, ‘Is it Douglas Harsum and I said, ‘Yes.’ And he told me and he told me where, where, where he was and I said, ‘Well, would you like to come? Shall we go to Bilbao and look,’ and we did and we went to the cemetery. It’s wonderful. I’ve got the pictures and I’ll find them for you for the next time you come.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But it’s a beautiful cemetery and -
CB: Good.
MW: It’s, they’re all in one communal grave.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. But it’s beautifully kept and it was being looked after by an English lady married to a Spanish, yes, Spanish man, yes. She’d been there a number of years. There’s a Book of Remembrance, there’s a small church, small C of E church and a small Catholic church. The Catholic one was very, very rarely or hardly used at all. The C of E one they always have a service on Remembrance Day and on various other days but I’ve got all the info there. It’s all written down and I did write to the WAAF magazine and they printed it actually.
CB: Excellent.
MW: What I wrote and told them about it, about that but I became, after many months of losing Douglas I kept getting letters from his mother. Would I go and see her. I couldn’t do that at that time. I was, partly I was busy and I, emotionally I wasn’t fit to see anybody but eventually I did go and she lived at Richmond and he was an only son and the last in the line of the Harsum and we became very good friends. In fact, she had lost her husband and you see, I did, I kept in touch for many years after that but it didn’t turn out quite as I expected because she got very fond of me and she wanted me to go and live with her but I was young. I wanted to get married or to have children and, and that’s, that’s what happened and I did get married.
CB: This cemetery, the cemetery, is it, because a lot of aircrew were lost in the Bay of Biscay. Does it-
MW: Yes it was mainly, mainly aircrew.
CB: Yeah.
MW: There are one or two others but as I say I’ve got that written down and I can let you -
CB: I was wondering if it’s a War Graves Commission -
MW: Yes, it is.
CB: Cemetery. It is.
MW: Yes, it is.
CB: Right.
MW: In Maidenhead.
CB: Oh I thought you meant the one in Bilbao.
MW: No. The one I got in touch with.
CB: Yes.
MW: To be able to tell me all the info.
CB: Yes.
MW: How to get there and what, you know, what to expect. And that was in -
CB: Was Maidenhead.
MW: Maidenhead, yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: They gave me all the, Douglas’s crew which I didn’t really know that well and they were, I got all their names and everything all written down from, from, from the Maidenhead people.
CB: How long had you known him?
MW: Three months.
CB: Ahum
MW: Two months. Not long.
CB: And he -
MW: He would have been twenty one on, he was, he was killed in the June. He would have been twenty one in the August, on the 17th of August that year but that was the average age for, for aircrew.
CB: Yeah. And did you -
MW: And then of course you got these, the conscientious objectors.
CB: Yes. Tell me more about those.
MW: Tell me?
CB: More about them.
MW: Well, I don’t know very much except that they would come into my office. You see it cost quite a lot for the RAF to train a pilot or a navigator and then they would, they would go through that training and then find that, that God was, was stronger than what they could do. They couldn’t do it because of their religion but why? I would say, ‘Well, why, if you’re, why didn’t you realise that before you did the training.’ You see it was absolutely out for a, for a conscientious objector. There was no question about anything. You just went out of the RAF just like that with no, no, no reference, no pension, no nothing. It really was a very nasty, a very bad thing to happen to anybody really but they did, they would er -
CB: Who were these people? Were they any types of the crew or just particular members who had this -
MW: Were they?
CB: Were they all sorts of different crew members or -
MW: Oh yes.
CB: Or were they only pilots?
MW: Yes, no
CB: Or -
MW: They were, no they were all different kinds.
CB: Right.
MW: Different ones yeah. Rear gunners were, were it was very rare that pilots I think that would do it but the rear gunners and I don’t know if there was an occasional navigator that, that were conscientious objectors -
CB: There’s a key question here I think that emerges from the point about conscientious objectors who they called conshies.
MW: Yes.
CB: What about LMF?
MW: Hmmn?
CB: Lack of moral fibre.
MW: Absolutely. You’ve got it.
CB: So how do you differentiate between those and the conscientious objectors?
MW: You don’t.
CB: Right.
MW: No. That, that’s an awful phrase really. Isn’t it? Lack of moral conscience -
CB: Moral fibre yeah.
MW: Fibre, Yeah.
CB: What did they do to them? What did they do with them?
MW: What did they do?
CB: When they were identified as falling into this category?
MW: Well they just got in they just had interviews with senior officers and they were just chucked out of the RAF. No, you couldn’t, they couldn’t re-muster. They couldn’t do anything. But that’s what that, they went, just had to go.
CB: This is at Linton on Ouse.
MW: Yes.
CB: Did they run parades and have these people um identified on parades?
MW: On -?
CB: On parades. Did they call together airmen -
MW: Not that I know of.
CB: Ground crew.
MW: No. I don’t think so.
CB: Right.
MW: No. I think they were just turned out you see if they, I felt so very sorry for them really because if you can’t, it was really lack of moral fibre. They just could not do it, you see. They hadn’t got the nerve, you see.
CB: Was, was - sorry.
MW: You, you, you take somebody like Cheshire who did over a hundred operations, sorties including Nagasaki which happened later but that, and you and he said was he ever frightened, nervous about going on any? But of course he was as he said after doing sixty operations you were still nervous about the thing but you had to do it. You had to go in and do it and what I didn’t quite understand about people like Cheshire was that they had no compunction about whatsoever about bombing the Germans, killing the Germans. He knew he was going to kill people but you know on one occasion at a later stage when he went to France, you know that, and he went, he circled the factory that he was meant to bomb, it was when he was on 617 and he circled the factory there three times in order for the girls to get out because he was low level bombing then in the Mosquito.
CB: Ahum.
MW: And, and they did. They got out. And one of those French girls came back to England, came to Linton to thank him. Didn’t want to know. No, didn’t want to know. But after Nagasaki he was a different person. That was the crunch. He wouldn’t, that really turned that man into something completely different.
CB: Interesting.
MW: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: That you, he said you’ve got to find a better way of making peace in this country without that sort of bombing. You’ve got to find a better peace finally. But have we?
CB: Can we just go back to your debriefings? What was the information you were looking for specifically?
MW: Oh I didn’t do debriefing.
CB: At the end of a raid.
MW: Ivor Jones did all the -
CB: Yes, but you were there listening -
MW: We had three -
CB: Some of the time.
MW: We had three squadron er two flight lieutenants, one pilot officer and Squadron Leader Ivor Jones in the intelligence. That was the establishment and I say you, you understand about establishment don’t you? That, that’s what you were allowed and that’s what you had. And one was the managing director of Brylcreem [laughs]. I can’t remember his name just at the minute but he was. I can’t remember his name at the moment.
CB: But he was one of the intelligence officers?
MW: No, they did all the debriefing. They did. Ivor Jones would say. ‘Did you,’ you know did you, did you, ‘Did you see the target? Did you bomb the target?’ And they would make all the notes. Oh no, I didn’t do any of that. No. No I just looked after them morally I suppose, you know with their cups of tea and -
CB: So the maps you were providing did they have before a raid? What was on the map? Was it a plain map or did it have anything drawn on it?
MW: Oh, no it’s Mercator, projector.
CB: Right.
MW: The 48-4 was the main one that they used for Europe you see.
CB: Ahum
MW: And then they had a small target map if, if they were available and these all came from High Wycombe and then they had an ordinary, not always they took a map but they had a silk map provided in their aids to escape which was double sided. I had one when I came out of the RAF but my cousin persuaded me to give it to him which I did and he had it made into a double-sided picture so he has it hanging on the wall.
CB: Okay.
MW: [Which you can] And they had a compass.
CB: These are the escape equipment.
MW: In, in their shoes yeah.
CB: Yeah.
MW: Or in the, underneath the -
CB: In the heel.
MW: You know about these things anyway don’t you?
CB: Well we need to -
MW: But they, and I had to issue things like that and make sure they all came back.
CB: So, how many other WAAFs were there in the intelligence section?
MW: Oh, we had two special duty, two men, young, young, they weren’t corporals. No, I was the only corporal.
CB: Ok.
MW: And I’d say Ivor Jones, Brylcreem and this other one and sometimes a pilot officer.
CB: Were they people who were new to the RAF or were some of them pilots already?
MW: Were they?
CB: Were they people -
MW: No they were, they were admin. No they weren’t -
CB: There weren’t any flying people -
MW: They weren’t flying at all.
CB: In that.
MW: No. I don’t know what Ivor Jones did in the army but I should think he would do, he would do an administrative job because he was so good at it.
CB: Ahum.
MW: As I say we didn’t have any WAAF officers. I think we only had one when I, you see it was 1940 when I went in. My number is quite low. It’s 893293.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes.
[pause]
CB: So obviously you kept that number all the time.
MW: You can’t get it out of your head, you know.
CB: No. Of course not.
MW: It stays there.
CB: Absolutely.
MW: Absolutely.
CB: I think everybody in the forces knows that -
MW: I know. They do. Yes.
CB: Remembers their number.
MW: Then of course I’m going out of Bomber Command now but I went to er, in the end of ‘43 I went to -
CB: That’s when you went to Shawbury was it?
MW: No. I went to Melksham. No, I went to um Newmarket first.
CB: Oh.
MW: Just for a few weeks.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And then I didn’t do much there. There’s not really any interest at all and then I went to Silverstone.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Silverstone was good because it was very near my home.
CB: Yes.
MW: And we were always, the done thing that we would go down to the bottom of the road and thumb a lift. It was nothing. You just did that.
CB: Yeah.
MW: You wouldn’t do it today. But that’s what you, and that was fine.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Shawbury -
CB: What did you do at Silverstone? That was an OTU.
MW: That’s right yes OTU. I just looked after the maps there and they had a lot of navigational equipment that needed a bit of attention from time to time. Sextants and things like that you know and, and not a great deal, I wasn’t there that long. But then I went to Shawbury that was the air, Empire Air Navigation School and they, the map office was in quite a mess there and needed a lot of attention but they were also working on Aries.
CB: What was Aries?
MW: That aircraft that went, that went to Canada. It was a special, special aircraft. I did help the squadron leader there. Squadron Leader Proctor who, who was handling that project.
CB: What were you helping him with?
MW: With the maps.
CB: Right.
MW: With the map reading. The reading out the numbers and positions on the map where they needed to be.
CB: But you didn’t go over to Canada with him?
MW: Oh no. I didn’t do any of that. No.
CB: Ok.
MW: I did do a bit of flying at Silverstone because they used to come backwards and forwards and around to Oxford in training you see. A few times I went up in an Anson. You know, the little aircraft, the Anson and, and Silverstone um Shawbury was, they were training an Australian squadron. What was, what was their number? 101, yes. All Australians. Very interesting young men. Full of life.
CB: Okay.
MW: Yes. We had, where are we there? Oh yes we were back in married quarters again then. Yes ‘cause I was in charge of a house there.
CB: This is in Shawbury?
MW: In Shawbury, yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: Yeah ‘cause they tended to use the houses but of course not you see, at Linton and Driffield, they were permanent stations.
CB: Yes.
MW: Pre-war station and all built roughly the same aren’t they?
CB: Yeah and Shawbury. Yeah.
MW: Yes. Yes. Have you been to Linton?
CB: Yes and Shawbury.
MW: And Shawbury oh.
CB: They’re expansions period airfields. Yes. So then after Shawbury, well at Shawbury you were there for a little while.
MW: Yes. I was. And, and then at Shawbury, after Shawbury I went down to Brawdy in South Wales and that’s Coastal Command of course.
CB: Right.
MW: There, they were still, they were still flying of course by then, much later on.
CB: This was 1946.
MW: mmm’ And Shawbury.
CB: Brawdy.
MW: Brawdy was where I met my husband.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. The map office was in a terrible mess. The navigation officer for whom I worked was absolutely wonderful to work for but I did get through the mess in the end because nobody had done anything for months. And they had just brought maps in, threw them down and it took me ages to get that clear. To, to get some sort of order there but um and then we moved to to Chivenor. The squadron moved to Chivenor and that’s near Barnstable.
CB: Also Coastal Command.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: Also Coastal Command.
MW: Also Coastal, yes.
CB: Yes.
MW: All Coastal then.
CB: So you were issuing a lot of charts for the sea.
MW: Absolutely. Quite different of course. There wasn’t the anxiety that there was with Bomber Command.
CB: So, how long were you at Chivenor?
MW: Not that long. I’m just trying to think. Yes I, and then I went to Northwood. Northwood was -
CB: The navy.
MW: And it and from there, Northwood, I was demobbed.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes.
CB: How far ahead did you know that you were going to be demobbed? Was it, did you volunteer for it or -?
MW: Ah yes well I because I’d been in so long because I was early, joined very early I could have come out much, but I offered to do another year, an extra year because really and truly there was nothing to do for me. I didn’t have a job to come back to and I certainly didn’t want to be back to be back to being a nursery governess again.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And I had met, met up with Roy and we were, I was toying with the idea of either going to live with Douglas’s mother, or going to Australia or marrying Roy and in the end I decided I would get married.
CB: It was a better offer.
MW: A better offer [laughs] but er so then that’s what we did.
CB: So Roy was still at Brawdy.
MW: He was moved to Waddington.
CB: Right. Oh.
MW: Yes. So, I came to live in Lincoln then.
CB: Ahum
MW: After that.
CB: Before you married him.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: Before you married him you were where?
MW: Oh yes. I lived in Lincoln.
CB: Yes.
MW: I got a job in Lincoln with the telephone manager’s officer. And that’s a different story. When you take, when you consider what they do today and what we did then in the telephone manager’s office it’s just archaic. You just don’t believe what, what goes on now. But yes I was, I was there. You wouldn’t want to know about that but -
CB: Well it’s just intriguing because what did people do when they left the RAF?
MW: This is it. I walked the streets to find accommodation for a start. There was nowhere to live. My family were down in Bloxham and I wanted to be near, be with Roy. There was no work in Bloxham, in the Banbury area and there um. There was no work and there was no accommodation but I think accommodation was the worst of my worries when I came out of the RAF. I did have a very good report from the officer at Northolt. Very, very good. He said, it should be in the roof somewhere but quite where, I don’t know and I managed to get a job purely on that, on that reference. You had to have a reference for everything in those days.
CB: Yeah.
MW: On that reference that he gave me I got this job in the telephone manager’s office. And then I managed to get some, some digs in Lincoln. Just one room. And then finally after we got married we got some, shared a house at Navenby. Do you know Navenby?
CB: No.
MW: Yes. Just up the road from -
CB: Yes.
MW: Lovely little village it was. Until Roy went , and we hadn’t been married long and he was posted to Aden.
CB: Oh.
MW: And he went by air. Flying by air was very limited in those days. You couldn’t. It wasn’t like it is now. It was very few and far between but he went out by air to take charge of the station at Aden. Khormaksar that is.
CB: Ahum.
MW: And I could go when he found me some suitable accommodation which [laughs] which again was a nightmare. Him trying to find me, but we did get in the end he decided that I would go to the Crescent Hotel which was the only reasonable place to live in it. So I went out by sea on the Toledo and arrived in Aden on Christmas Day, pouring with rain which he told me it never rained in Aden. And we had two years in Aden. Do you know Aden?
CB: Never been.
MW: No. Well you know where it is of course.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
MW: Yes. Yes. But not many, I say to people, no idea where it is.
CB: We interviewed somebody operating from there.
MW: Yeah.
CB: Ahum.
MW: It’s, I mean you’d think, they don’t know the map these days.
CB: No. No.
MW: They get in the aircraft and fly off somewhere but they’ve no idea where they’re going I don’t think.
CB: So, then, when you, you were there for two years.
MW: Yes.
CB: Then where did you go? Well Roy was posted where?
MW: We came back. He was posted to Upper Heyford and then to Abingdon.
CB: And you got quarters.
MW: No.
CB: Did you get a quarter in both cases?
MW: We didn’t get quarters because he was back as a civilian by then.
CB: Oh, of course. Yes.
MW: Yes. He was a senior met officer in Aden.
CB: Ahum.
MW: In civilian but officer status you see.
CB: Ahum.
MW: So he could have lived in, well he did live in the officers’ mess in Aden but I couldn’t you see. Yes. It was officers’ mess only and so then we stayed in, we managed to buy a house or bungalow in Kennington which is not far from Oxford.
CB: Yeah.
MW: Oh, first of all we went, we had we shared a house in a place called Longworth.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And then we managed to buy this bungalow in Kennington and by that time we had our first son, Richard. Kennington is quite near Radley. Radley College.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Richard went to Radley College. Things were settling down there and then we had to move to Aylesbury.
CB: Roy went to Halton did he?
MW: Hmmn?
CB: Why did you go to Aylesbury?
MW: The Met Office just move you.
CB: Yeah.
MW: It’s like being in the RAF. The same.
CB: But stationed at Halton?
MW: He was stationed at, when we moved to Aylesbury he was stationed at Dunstable.
CB: Oh right.
MW: Dunstable was the main. So we bought a house in Aylesbury and for the five or six years that he was, he was at Dunstable we lived at Aylesbury and I had my second son at Aylesbury.
CB: What’s his name?
MW: Nicholas. And then we moved to Bracknell. The Met Office moved in 1961. It probably was here in 1960 when it was officially opened but the official Met Office where all the forecasting was done.
CB: But you came in ’61.
MW: Yes. They had a huge computer which was as big as this bungalow but it was all valves.
CB: Oh.
MW: All valves there and Roy was in charge of that. They used to get him up in the middle of the night because it had gone wrong and there were only three of those computers in the country and one was owned by Joe Lyons. Why he wanted one I don’t know and the other was down in something to do with the army. I can’t remember but -
CB: Yeah
MW: Roy used to go down there sometimes when the Met Office had broken down and he, well we’ve been in, in Crowthorne for fifty three years now.
CB: Have you really?
MW: Since we were in, but in that time Roy has been to Gan and the Indian Ocean but we weren’t -
CB: Yeah.
MW: I wasn’t allowed to go because they don’t have women on Gan at all.
CB: No. It’s such a small island.
MW: That’s right. Yes.
CB: No.
MW: And I had my third son here.
CB: His name is -?
MW: He’s Edward.
CB: Oh right. Did any of the three go into the Met Office like their father?
MW: No. No. One, Richard is an optician.
CB: Oh right.
MW: He’s got a practice in Hampton Court.
CB: Ahum.
MW: And Nicholas, the middle one is an engineer but he works in Wales and Edward, unfortunately, Edward has a business building children’s playgrounds.
CB: Ah.
MW: He had a very, very successful business doing all the children’s playgrounds around up and down the country but he had a severe stroke.
CB: Oh.
MW: Four years ago.
CB: Right.
MW: I saw him yesterday and he is very disabled. But we do, he’s only down at Halton so we -
CB: Ahum.
MW: Do meet up for lunch but unfortunately it was a very bad stroke.
CB: Oh dear.
MW: It was life and death really.
CB: Awful.
MW: Very bad. But he’s cheerful and I took my friend see him, to have lunch with him yesterday and he said, ‘You know, Mary, he does, he’s with it.’ It’s just the problem is with the speech. He can’t communicate -
CB: Right.
MW: It’s all up here.
CB: Yeah. Frustrating.
MW: And Peter said, ‘Oh he knows what he wants to say Mary. He can’t, just can’t’ -
CB: Ahum.
MW: He’s, he’s living at home now. And he, I don’t think he’s resentful, you know, about what’s happened to him. He seems quite cheerful and my friend said, he hadn’t met him before, and he said that he thought he was, he was really quite good obviously you know with his ability to talk. He says a lot of bloody hells unfortunately.
CB: Does he?
MW: And my friend’s a priest so [laughs]. I said to Peter, ‘Look,’ I said –‘, ‘I don’t really want - ’ He said, ‘Look Mary it’s no difference at all.’ But he’s like that. I mean a lot of priests wouldn’t have -
CB: No.
MW: Gone along with that but he’s very nice and -
CB: How many grandchildren have you got?
MW: Six. They’ve each got two.
CB: Two, two and two are they?
MW: They’ve each have two yeah and one came yesterday with us, Abigail. She’s lovely and she’s finished at Sheffield. She’s got, she’s got a law and criminology.
CB: Oh.
MW: And she’s the prettiest thing you ever saw.
CB: Going back to your, your major role in the RAF was in intelligence.
MW: Ahum.
CB: What was the key item that sticks in your mind about your job there?
MW: About my?
CB: The job you did. What was the most important part of it would you say?
MW: Looking after the boys. Yes. Being, the maps things were easy, I ordered the maps. I knew where they were going and knew how to calculate the targets and that but it was looking after the boys that was the most important.
CB: And what was looking after the boys? What did they really need?
MW: They needed a little bit of comfort. I think Ivor Jones saw that in me when he asked me because that was a very unusual thing to do. Chris, you don’t get away with that sort of thing in the RAF.
CB: No.
MW: I don’t think anybody else would tell you that story.
CB: Ahum.
MW: That, to be, to be told by a squadron leader to report to him the following morning without being re-mustered.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Without being, the WAAF officers being told. It was very unusual. That was the key point in my, it was one of the best jobs in the RAF really.
CB: Ahum.
MW: When I think about it. I mean all these girls that did, the friends of mine that did, that did work on balloons and, and, and television, the er um telephone operators and that but they, mine was, I was right in the midst of it. Right in the midst of the bombing. I knew, I knew the target. I knew what was going on and, and I mean Ivor Jones knew where the flak was coming from, what to tell them what to avoid and that but um and all that and, and it was just I was just in the thick of it really.
CB: So these, these young men are aged nineteen, twenty.
MW: Oh average age yes.
CB: Twenty one.
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: And what are they really wanting to talk about?
MW: What did they want to talk about? Their home life. They’d just come out of university some of them. Not all of them. Just tell them what was going on at home. I don’t think they really wanted to be there. I’m sure they didn’t, a lot of them but, but they were going to do it. They wanted to be aircrew.
CB: Yeah.
MW: That was the absolutely the aim of every young man in the RAF was to be aircrew. Nobody wanted a groundcrew job at all.
CB: They were just getting things off their chests.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: They were trying to get things off their chest.
MW: Oh yes. Yes. Yeah.
CB: Any ground crew talk to you the same way?
MW: Did the ground crew -?
CB: Any ground people because they would have learned from air crew that you were somebody who was sympathetic to concerns did you get -
MW: No. I never really got to know the [air] crew I was really involved so involved with the maps I didn’t really get to know the ground crew at all.
CB: No.
MW: No.
CB: What was the worst experience you had, would you say?
MW: I think it was at Driffield.
CB: The bombing.
MW: The bombing. Yes.
CB: What was the casualty level then?
MW: We had –
MW: We had one WAAF killed on the station and about seven airmen. Seven others. That’s all in Cheshire’s book.
CB: Is it? Right.
MW: Yes, and even I am mentioned in “Cheshire VC” and he said about this WAAF who he had to put in to, in to the shelter. That was a very near thing for me. Well, for the three of us. There were two officers who weren’t when we went into this small room when, when everything started collapsing and you couldn’t see your way out and as I say then it was, it was Cheshire who pushed us in to the shelter. But I think possibly, we did have some very bad raids at Linton at night. We got, we were bombed one night. We were in the shelter and we got, I got thrown from one end of the shelter to the other end of the shelter. Ended up at the other end of the shelter and I had a piece of shrapnel in my toe, in my foot. But I would have said that because Linton, Driffield was the first experience of that sort of bombing in daylight that we, that it was quite horrendous.
CB: So -
MW: I, I [pause]
CB: Do you want to pause for a bit?
MW: Ahum
CB: This is an emotional -
MW: Ahum
CB: Issue isn’t it. Let’s stop for a bit.
[pause]
Other: Yeah. Look at those two there. That could be Scarlet and James.
CB: Mary’s done so well that we’re just stopping for a cup of tea which of course is what they did in the war as a way of reducing the difficulties of the time.
MW: What we haven’t discussed of course is whether you wanted to know and I thought you did is what I did after the war.
CB: That’s it.
MW: When I came back.
CB: I did. Yes.
MW: And that is quite interesting really.
CB: Is it? Yes.
MW: Yes because after the boys were out of school.
CB: Ahum.
MW: I, I took up flower arranging.
CB: Did you?
MW: Yeah. And I did a City and Guilds. Have you done? Have you?
Other: Yes.
MW: I can’t believe it.
Other: Yes.
MW: Goodness.
Other: I’ve done the floristry as well.
MW: I’ve done floristry as -
Other: And got the City and Guilds, yes.
MW: You’ve done City and Guilds?
Other: Yes. Yes.
MW: Goodness me.
CB: Every Wednesday she does flower arranging classes.
MW: Yes. Yeah, well I’ve done the cathedrals.
Other: Lovely.
MW: Oxford twice.
Other: Lovely.
MW: Christchurch, Westminster Abbey, Guildford.
Other: Super.
MW: And I’ve been chairman of the club. Well I -
Other: Have you?
MW: For my sins. But yes, if you want to know about that well -
Other: Yes. Yes.
MW: It’s so nice to meet somebody -
Other: It’s a lovely thing to do isn’t it?
MW: You take, whilst you’re flower arranging you can’t think of anything else.
Other: No. That’s right.
MW: [?] And I say to all the classes that I have, that I’ve had in the past, not so much now but in the past I’ve said look if you take up flower arranging if you’ve got a problem and everybody seems to have problems-
Other: Oh yes.
MW: These days. That you can’t think about anything else.
Other: No. No, that’s true.
MW: You just concentrate.
Other: That’s right.
MW: On your flowers. And your foliage of course.
Other: Yes your foliage.
MW: Your foliage.
Other: Is very important. I’ve got a lot of foliage in the garden actually.
MW: So have I. [laughs] Myrtle is the thing isn’t it?
Other: Yes. Yes.
MW: Yes, I’ve got -
Other: The only thing I haven’t got which is very useful is Ruscus.
MW: Oh I haven’t got Ruscus either.
Other: That’s a super thing isn’t it?
MW: It is, isn’t it? Yes.
Other: Both the hard and the soft Ruscus.
Other 2: Is that one yours?
CB: Yes.
Other 2: I’ll just empty the tea.
Other: Yes but I must -
MW: Well I did that you see. That was from -
CB: That’s lovely isn’t it?
Other: Beautiful.
MW: That’s somebody brought me some flowers the other day.
Other: Lovely.
MW: But this is what you see -
Other: Yeah. That’s lovely.
MW: You don’t -
CB: I’m glad we didn’t try to be too ambitious with what we brought you. [laughs]
Other: [laughs] I know.
MW: [Laughs] Well if you have to do this random. Have you been to the shows or anything this year?
Other: I’ve been up to new Covent Garden to demonstrations there and, you know. Various church -
CB: Thank you.
Other: Church festivals. Flower festivals and what have you.
MW: Do you do them for church?
Other: I do. Yes. I do. Yes. Not regularly. Only when they have a special occasion. We’ve just had one, we’ve just had a flower festival so I’ve done something -
MW: Oh have you?
Other: For that. Yes. Yes.
MW: I do. I’m on the church roster here.
Other: Yes.
MW: ‘Cause I go to church anyway.
Other: Yes, so do I.
MW: I’m a church going person but I’m on the church roster.
CB: That’s quite a commitment to do that.
Other: I used to. I used to be. I used to do it regularly.
MW: Yes.
Other: But I don’t now.
MW: We have a roster every year -
Other: Yes -
MW: For the year and you -
Other: Which is good.
MW: Put down what you think you can, you are able to do.
Other: That’s it.
MW: Oh, thanks Abigail, lovely.
Other: Yes.
MW: Then if you have another -
CB: Yes.
MW: Go on.
CB: These are very good.
Other: Not for me thank you. No.
CB: Are you on sugar?
MW: No thanks.
Other: We have a problem in our village that there aren’t that many people being willing to do it so I think one of the wardens who was responsible for doing the roster had to give up in the end so if we’re having any special occasion she’ll ask the few of us -
MW: Yes. Yes.
Other: That will do something. To do you know to do something.
MW: Well you know we decide before Easter what we can do during the year you see.
Other: Yes. Yes.
MW: And then when we, we get to, if you can’t do that, if something comes up you find amongst yourselves. You -
Other: Somebody else will, yeah.
MW: You do that. But we have a problem with the altar. They won’t do the altar.
Other: Oh really.
CB: Really?
MW: And it always lands in my lap.
Other: Oh right.
MW: But I haven’t got the altar for Christmas. I’ve got the Remembrance table.
Other: Right. Right.
MW: I’m very good at pedestals.
Other: Lovely, yes.
MW: That’s really my strength. The pedestals.
Other: Lovely, lovely and it’s getting the weight right isn’t it?
MW: Yeah. But the, we, I mean I’m going back a long way to Dora Buckingham and that but City and Guilds isn’t an easy exam is it?
Other: No. No.
MW: No. People think you know it is. In fact, I went into it, I was just doing club things and my friend said, ‘Oh let’s go to Bracknell,’ she said, ‘They’ve got a course there going on.’ And so I said, ‘Ok we’ll do the course.’ We did. And then the tutor started talking about exams and I said, ‘What exam? I wasn’t, I wasn’t expecting any exam,’ She said, ‘Oh yes,’ She said, ‘It’s part one.’
Other: Ahum.
MW: And I got through that because I’d never done any, any exam work really in my life but they had what they called a multi, multi questions.
Other: Oh yes.
MW: There were four -
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
MW: And I think -
CB: Oh multiple choice.
MW: There’s only one right one you see.
Other: Yes.
MW: And I managed to do that.
Other: Good.
MW: And I got very good marks for that.
Other: Good.
MW: So then I went on to part two. Part two is very interesting isn’t it?
Other: Ahum.
MW: Did you watch Monty Don last night?
Other: No. I didn’t, no.
MW: Oh ‘cause he went through Capability Brown, Repton -
Other: Oh really.
MW: And Sackville West and all those -
Other: Oh I wish I’d seen that.
MW: People we know about. Yes
Other: Yeah.
MW: And if you’ve got it on your tape or if it comes up again. Do -
Other: I will. I’ll have a look.
MW: Yes.
Other: I will. Yes. Yes.
CB: Well at ninety six I’m amazed what you do.
MW: Oh go on it’s only a number.
CB: Yes but I mean you know the energy you put in to all these things is extraordinary.
MW: Yeah, but -
CB: Thank you very much.
MW: You see, once you’re a flower arranger -
CB: Yeah.
MW: You’re always a flower. You won’t give it up.
Other: No. Oh no. No.
MW: No. You won’t. No.
Other: I mean I go every week. I don’t learn anything but I just go for social -
MW: So do I, you see.
Other: Reasons.
MW: I go every month, you see.
Other: Yes. Yes.
MW: Now I’m, I’m -
CB: You instruct though.
MW: Honorary president now.
Other: Right.
MW: Of the club ‘cause I was -
Other: Do you belong to NAFAS?
MW: Yes.
Other: You do. Yes. Which do. I haven’t done that.
MW: Oh.
Other: I haven’t. I’ve only done the floristry.
MW: Oh you’ve done the floristry. Yes.
Other: I’ve done the City and Guilds floristry.
MW: Yes I’ve done the City and Guilds.
Other: And really the floristry that I learned they don’t really use so much now because it was all the wiring of the bouquets.
MW: The wiring and the stuff.
Other: They don’t -
MW: Oh yes.
Other: Do that anymore.
MW: They don’t do that now.
Other: No.
MW: No all those hyacinths that you wire.
Other: Oh don’t. Taking all the, I know, I know.
MW: Yes.
Other: But that’s not done now is it? I mean -
MW: No they are glued on aren’t they?
Other: It’s all that hand tied bouquets. Yeah.
MW: My friend that brought me -
Other: Yes.
MW: Those the other day, she’s a florist -
Other: Right.
MW: From, in Bracknell and she but she’s also a flower arranger.
Other: Ah huh.
MW: And she did a competition at Aldershot last week and she had those flowers over you see so she says, ‘Oh Mary can have those.’
Other: Lovely, no that’s lovely, that’s really lovely yes. It’s one of my favourite arrangements actually. I think that’s a lovely arrangement.
MW: The triangle? Yes.
Other: Yes, yes but on a little pedestal is -
MW: Yes I like that.
Other: Lovely. Yes.
MW: I mean, I, because I judge as well.
Other: Yes.
MW: I do the judging for the horticultural and everything.
Other: Yes.
MW: Yes. You, the, what was I saying?
Other: You do the judging for the Horticultural Society.
MW: Yes. Yeah.
Other: Yes.
MW: And for the various other shows around here now but they I mean some it’s very difficult to judge.
Other: I know.
MW: Because they use all this wire and stuff and -
Other: Exactly. Yes.
MW: And glitter and all that stuff.
Other: I know.
MW: We didn’t do that did we?
Other: No. I had what could have been a very embarrassing moment because I was asked to judge the local Horticultural Society flower arrangements and unbeknown to me, my tutor, the lady that had taught me for years, was putting in an entry and I was judging it and I bumped into her in Tesco and I hadn’t got a list of who was taking part and she was avoiding me you see. She knew that I was going to be the judge but she was avoiding me and I thought that’s funny she’s behaving in a most peculiar way. Anyway, when it came to the judging thank God I gave her first place.
MW: Oh.
Other: But I mean that could have been a disaster couldn’t it?
MW: Oh, yeah and you see, you see people say to me, friends of mine say oh well we didn’t realise about the judging. About the judging that they -
Other: No. I know it’s quite a responsibility isn’t it?
MW: It’s frightening.
Other: And you’ve also got to, you know, give comments as well.
MW: Oh yes you have to give comments.
Other: So you know.
MW: Yes.
Other: You know, it could have been, it could have been absolutely disastrous for me.
MW: Disastrous.
Other: If I’d, if I, you know had not given her -
MW: The judging isn’t easy.
Other: No, it isn’t.
MW: These days anyway.
Other: No. No.
MW: Because they use, and NAFAS have brought out these, you have to judge by NAFAS rules of course don’t you?
Other: Yes. Well I got a book.
MW: You got the-
Other: Actually, I wrote to them and I got a book and I read it because I thought I must, you know, I was asked to do this judging.
MW: Yes.
Other: And I thought I must know a bit more about it.
MW: Of course.
Other: And so of course it all has to -
MW: But as I say nowadays they don’t -
Other: Be certain
MW: If they don’t read the schedule -
Other: That’s right.
MW: If they don’t relate to the, to the, to the schedule that you can’t, you’ve got, you’ve got to down point them really.
Other: Yes.
MW: Last year -
Other: Absolutely.
MW: At Wellington, Wellington College I got a girl, it was a beautiful basket. Absolutely. Sunflowers, which I don’t like anyway -
Other: I don’t. Isn’t that funny?
MW: I hate them actually. [laughs]
Other: I can’t stand them.
MW: And she and she said and she got this beautiful basket and the title was “Let’s Have a Picnic.”
Other: Oh right.
MW: You see, and this basket was there and it was sunny and shining and really, really said a nice sunny day to you but it didn’t say anything about a picnic.
Other: No.
MW: If she’d just put a cake or a couple of -
Other: That’s right. Something yeah.
MW: That would have said, it would have told. I couldn’t -
CB: No story.
MW: I just had to down point it you see but it was certainly, it was certainly the best arrangement there.
Other: Right. Yes.
MW: But you can’t. You can’t do that, like you say. Who have you got at Aylesbury, you live in Buckingham -
Other: I’m at Wilmslow.
MW: You’re at -
Other: So I’ve learnt in Wilmslow at the Education -
MW: Oh.
Other: Centre in Wilmslow actually.
MW: Ahh.
Other: Yeah.
MW: So you belong to the flower club there.
Other: Yes. Yes. Yes.
MW: And, and you do you have all the shows and things like that do you?
Other: Well you can go to various, yes you can go to the various shows but it’s mainly a learning centre so -
MW: A learning centre.
Other: Yes. Yes, educational centre.
MW: See I hadn’t started when we lived at Aylesbury but I still had my -
Other: Well Aylesbury is much better. I mean my floristry course which was one day a week took three years. That’s because in in Wilmslow -
MW: Well the City and Guilds.
Other: It was only a daily, a daily course you see and just a couple of hours.
MW: Yes.
Other: Whereas in Wilmslow they had, sorry, in Aylesbury they had much more, you know, concentrated courses.
MW: Yes.
Other: So it would have been a lot shorter but I was working at the time anyway and it suited me and I thought well I’ve always worked in offices. I wanted to do something different.
MW: Yeah. And you had a garden as well you say.
Other: Yes I’ve got a nice garden. Yes.
MW: Yes I have. At the back.
Other: it’s getting a bit much now because my husband used to do -
MW: Well I’ve got a gardener in now.
Other: Well I’m having to.
MW: That’s why it looks neat and tidy.
Other: I can see. I said to Chris when we got here, ‘The garden’s lovely.’
MW: Yes.
Other: I have a problem with gardeners in as much as they seem to flip from one person to another and they’re not reliable.
MW: Oh mine are actually. They’re costly.
Other: Yes I know.
MW: But I said, ‘Don’t worry about the house.’ I don’t worry about the carpets or anything as long as the garden looks right that’s alright.
CB: So how big is the garden at the back?
MW: Quite big, yes. Yes it’s
CB: And what, what, what sort of layout is it?
MW: Shrubs. I love shrubs.
Other: So do I. Not flowers. Isn’t it funny?
MW: No. You can do without flowers.
Other: People say you’re a flower arranger -
MW: Daphnes out here -
Other: But you don’t like flowers.
MW: My Daphnes are about to flower and all my shrubs at the back there.
Other: CB: What’s your favourite flower?
MW: Flower?
CB: Yes.
MW: Oh I suppose it would have to be the Lily. The Lily of the Valley
Other: Yes, they’re beautiful.
CB: And what about shrub? What’s your favourite shrub?
MW: The Daphne, which is about to flower any minute but we’ve got Azaleas. We’ve got -
Other: So have I.
MW: Magnolias. This estate is wonderful in the -
Other: I can imagine.
MW: We’ve got all this -
Other: The soil looks, the soil looks good.
MW: Yes, It is.
Other: Our soil isn’t good -
MW: No. Well when we lived at Aylesbury -
Other: You see.
MW: We had different soil there but -
Other: Yes, ours is very clayey.
MW: And this friend of mine the priest this is all we talk about when we go out you see. The plants. He is so interested in, in the plant life and he’s very clever but he’s more interested in leaf form.
Other: Yes.
MW: The form that –
Other: Yes. Yes.
MW: He’s got a thing about Viburnums.
Other: Oh right.
MW: He’d like to have the national collection of Vibernums if you please.
Other: Oh does he?
MW: Now there aren’t many Vibernums that I like particularly. They’re not, they don’t last long do they?
Other: No. No.
MW: You know, the Tinus, and what’s that one that’s very scented?
Other: Oh I um no, I can’t think.
MW: This one -
Other: Mine isn’t actually. Mine isn’t scented at all.
MW: But anyway, he, he’s got quite a few but I mean if you looked at his garden it’s, belongs to the church of course because he’s the priest and I would, I looked, took one look at it and I thought there’s no way I could do anything with that. It’s got, its Bagshot sand. He’s got about three or four pines in there. They drop needles all over -
Other: Oh yeah.
MW: The place.
Other: Yeah.
MW: Its dark and I thought, ‘Peter you can’t do anything with that.’
Other: No.
MW: But he does you see, He’s a tryer he’s a real tryer and he said a few months ago. ‘Will you come and have a look at the garden again?’ I said, ‘You’ve got far too much.’
Other: Get rid of something.
MW: He just keeps putting stuff in.
Other: Oh.
MW: I said move this stuff here around in to where you’ve got a bit sun and have this as a woodland garden so we’re in the process of doing that at the moment. Oh I couldn’t live without my garden. Could you?
Other: No. Do you like Hellebores?
MW: Hellebores? I said Daphne for my -
Other: Yeah.
MW: But Hellebores are my favourite flowers.
Other: They’re beautiful aren’t they? But I went to, we’ve got a very large garden centre at Woburn called Frosts and one of the, I can’t remember what his name was but we was one of the gardeners that was always on tele, a florists that was always on television and he’d done this flower arrangement with Hellebores and it was about sixty, sixty five pounds this, this arrangement and I thought I shall be interested to see what that’s like in a couple of days’ time if that doesn’t sell and of course they had, they’d used this you can’t -
MW: Absolutely useless.
Other: Arrange Hellebores and he should have known that.
MW: In fact I had a few in that little glass vase -
Other: Yeah.
MW: Before you came and I thought I’d better turn these out. I’d only had them in a couple of days.
Other: Oh really.
MW: It would not, I chucked them out.
Other: You shouldn’t cut them.
MW: Just before you came I thought I must chuck them out.
Other: Yeah.
MW: But my Christmas Rose, the Hellebore -
Other: Yes.
MW: Niger.
Other: Yes.
MW: Has just started to flower and we only bought that last year.
Other: They are beautiful and they’re so -
MW: They are my favourite. Yes.
Other: Many varieties aren’t there?
MW: Do you cut your leaves back?
Other: Yes.
MW: Yes. I must get the gardener to -
Other: Well I say do I, I mean I haven’t done a lot in the garden since my husband has died. It’s just been one thing after another going.
MW: Really.
Other: With the house with fencing coming down and tiles off the roof you wouldn’t believe it and I’ve had to always -
MW: I would believe it. I would believe it because everything, everything’s happened here.
Other: Yeah.
MW: This house is fifty years old you want to get out of it and get a new one.
Other: But at least it’s lovely though.
MW: Everything happens. The boiler goes and -
Other: That’s right.
MW: Everything wants replacing if you have had three boys that have been -
CB: Kept you on your toes. Mary, thank you so much for all of that and -
MW: Pleasure.
CB: And I’d just like to look at some pictures quickly.
MW: Yes.
Other: It’s these in the book Chris?
MW: Yeah.
CB: So, you couldn’t take pictures. You weren’t allowed to keep a diary.
MW: No.
CB: But the war ended. Is that when you started doing your diary?
MW: ‘45 I got one. Yes.
CB: Yes.
MW: I’ve got the whole, every day I wrote in it. I’m looking for it now but I can’t see it.
CB: Oh right. Ok.
MW: I put it down somewhere.
CB: Am I sitting on it do you think?
MW: It’s not under your -
CB: It’s not here. No.
MW: Is it, not underneath your -
CB: No.
Other: What about –
CB: Well we can have a look for it in a minute can’t we?
MW: But that is all about, about Shawbury?
CB: What prompted you to start taking a diary, making a diary?
MW: Well I don’t think I did much before the war but I did, I thought well somebody gave me this diary and because I hadn’t, I hadn’t been -
CB: Keeping one.
MW: Allowed to do one, I thought well, this is good.
CB: Ok.
MW: Anyway, I will find it.
CB: Yes.
MW: I say I only brought it through this morning, so -
CB: Yes.
MW: And I will find the, I think you will be interested in the album that we did on Bilbao.
CB: Yes.
MW: Because that -
CB: Absolutely.
MW: David took some beautiful pictures.
CB: Did he? Yes.
MW: Of the war graves and -
CB: And which squadron was Douglas in? 58.
MW: Yes, 58.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes.
CB: Yes.
MW: And that was Wellingtons of course. Yes.
CB: Yes.
MW: ‘Cause we didn’t get Halifaxes at Linton until later on and then we still had Whitleys and we still had Wellingtons. We had, at Driffield we had Whitleys you see.
CB: How many squadrons were there on the airfield at any one time?
MW: Linton? There were three.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Yes 102, 76 and 78 ‘cause Cheshire well from Middleton St George he came back on -
CB: Right. Ok.
MW: Well I hope that’s been -
CB: That was the interview with Mrs Mary Ward nee Brown who was getting a bit tired and some emotional issues towards the end anyway. Outstanding points to pick up later are details about her fiancé who died aged twenty one. A 58 squadron man. The emotions surrounding other WAAFs and also the interaction with air crew. So we’ll pick up on those with another tape.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mary Ward. One
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Ward grew up in Bloxham. She joined the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force in 1940 and was posted to RAF Driffield, on general duties in the officers’ mess. She describes a German daylight attack on RAF Driffield on the 15 August 1940 and the extensive damage it caused. Group Captain Leonard Cheshire had recently arrived and assisted her out of a shelter. The station relocated briefly to RAF Pocklington, during which time she was sent on a cookery course at RAF Melksham. She was then posted to RAF Linton-on-Ouse in late 1940. She describes a cook’s shift. While delivering rations she was invited by Squadron Leader Ivor Jones to re-muster as a map clerk special duties. She ordered maps and calculated targets and was sometimes present at debriefings. She describes her living conditions and uniform; the emotional stress of the work; those who were ‘conscientious objectors’ or lacking moral fibre; and Cheshire’s first wife, Constance Binney. In 1942 she met Douglas Harsum and they were engaged. He was killed on 12 June 1942. At the end of 1943, Mary Ward moved to RAF Shawbury, still working on maps, then to RAF Brawdy, where she met her husband Roy Ward. After the war she lived in the Lincoln area while he served at RAF Waddington. They also lived briefly in Aden. In civilian life her husband worked for the Met Office and she describes the various places they lived in England. She also talks about her family and at length about her passion for flower arranging.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-12-14
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Julie Williams
Mal Prissick
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:51:51 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AWardM151214
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Lincolnshire
Spain
Spain--Bilbao
Yemen (Republic)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-08-15
1942-06-12
1943
aircrew
bombing
briefing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
control tower
coping mechanism
debriefing
fear
final resting place
Gee
ground personnel
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
love and romance
mess
military living conditions
operations room
RAF Driffield
RAF Linton on Ouse
RAF Melksham
RAF Pocklington
RAF Shawbury
RAF Silverstone
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/365/5765/WardM [Pesaro].jpg
d9a2d9c693790af82307dda6f15eb90a
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/365/5765/AWardEM160217.1.mp3
0e6cbd95c57a49ef84a82479d97093ed
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ward, Mary
Mary Ward
Elsie Mary Ward
E M Ward
Mary Brown
Description
An account of the resource
Six items. Three oral history interviews with Elizabeth Mary Ward (893293, Women's Auxiliary Air Force), her dog tags, an aeroplane broach and a photograph album. Mary Ward was a cook but re-mustered and was promoted becoming a map officer. She served with Bomber Command at RAF Driffield between 1940 and 1944 before being posted to Coastal Command.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Mary ward and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Ward, EM
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Let me just introduce you. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 17th of February 2016. We’re back with Mary Ward in Crowthorne and we’re picking up on some of the points that needed elaborating upon and the first point is really, Mary, to do with your fiancé Douglas and what happened with that. How did you come to meet him in the first place and what went on after that?
MW: Well, I can’t remember the exact dates of when we met but it was ‘42 and he came with the rest of his crew to my map office to collect some maps. They needed new charts and they, they came to me to pick up the maps and the charts and he stayed behind when the rest of the crew left the office and asked me if I could go out with, if I would like to go to York with him. So, yes. I went to York with him and which followed, several dates followed and then he was diverted and was away for a few, a few days. I can’t remember exactly where the diversion was at this moment and then he came back and a few nights later he, they were, they went to an advance base and, to do reconnaissance over the Bay of Biscay.
CB: And this is flying in Wellingtons.
MW: That was flying in yes and he, he didn’t return that night. Well, several of the crews were lost that night but we, we, I was on duty. Most nights I was on duty when we were operating and we, I stayed until 8 or 9 o’clock in the morning trying to see if there was going to be any news but no there wasn’t any news and several days went by and I said to Squadron Leader Ivor Jones, ‘Do you think there’s any hope?’ And I actually said to him at that stage, ‘I can’t go on with this job. It’s too, too much to take. Losing all these boys.’ And his reply was that ‘I’m old enough to be your father. You’ve got to stop being, you mustn’t relate to this incident. You must put it aside because I need you here.’ So, right, well several months went by and worked very hard. That was a very busy time. And then I got a letter from Douglas’s mother who lived at Richmond. She had been, had been sent the, the um Douglas’s um kit and everything from, from the station. The adjutant had organised, always, always organised these things and, and she said, ‘I would like to meet you. Would you come and stay with me for the weekend?’ She said, ‘I’ve, I’d had a letter from Douglas just before, before he, he went missing and he said he’d met the girl he wanted to marry, he was going to marry.’ But I couldn’t do it then. I’m afraid, Chris, that it was too much for me. I had work. We were in Yorkshire, at Linton and they were in, she was in London so I kept putting it off and she kept phoning me. In the end, several months later, I did go. Very, very emotional. I’ll never forget the time she, when I went to meet her and I stayed the weekend, a lovely house. But she sobbed and sobbed. It really was her only son. The last one in their family and do you want to know what she was a sister, theatre sister in the South Middlesex Hospital and she said she’d married late and all she wanted was a little, a boy which she got and at twenty years old he was killed. Well, we did become very friendly. If you want me to go on with this do you? Ahum. And I went there quite a lot and then the time came for me. It was coming towards the end of ‘45 it would be and she said. ‘What are you going to do? Will you come and live with me after the, when the war’s over?’ I said, ‘No.’ She said, ‘You can have the house. You can have everything I’ve got’. But it was too much. I was too young to tie myself down at that stage and I knew Doug wouldn’t really have wanted me to do, to tie myself down so. And I met Roy and I had, well you probably saw from that diary I had loads of young men from the RAF from, from Australia who really wanted me to, to go back to Australia with them but in the end I decided, no. I would get a job and, and stay here. So we, we parted company really. I did write to her a few times afterwards but she was very disappointed that I wouldn’t go and live and live with her. And then I met Roy and um but that was after when I went back to, to South Wales to um to Brawdy. That’s Coastal Command, Brawdy. That’s where they were actually operating. They were still doing met, met work from there and I was there for a while until they, they closed Brawdy. I think the navy took it on then and then we went, we went to Chivenor, near Barnstable and from there I went to Northwood. That was headquarters at Coastal Command and from there I was demobbed. So, up until that time I think, I can’t remember, but I can, I can find out when I went to Bilbao. Up until that time I really, I mean I don’t, I can honestly say that there isn’t really a day that goes by when I don’t think of Douglas in some way or other and his christening cup is there on the mantelpiece. And his engagement ring. You will be very interested in this because she gave me her engagement ring which is a lovely three diamonds ring which I wore a lot and my granddaughter was looking at my, and she said she liked my rings and I said, ‘Right, well you can have this one when you get engaged.’ So recently, only last Christmas I had Douglas’s engagement ring put right. You know, cleaned up and made, made to fit and everything, you see. It is an old fashioned one of course. It’s quite old. And I gave it to her when she got engaged earlier this year. Well, I gave, I gave it to her boyfriend before then but Abigail now has it and she said, ‘Grandma,’ she said, ‘It’s so beautiful,’ she said, ‘I have to keep putting it in the box,’ back in the box looking at it. So that has been passed, as something that’s been passed on to her, on to her. Through her.
CB: So, you were thinking of Douglas all this time.
MW: Ahum.
CB: Was that -
MW: I only knew him -
CB: How long did you know him?
MW: Three months at the most.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. But three months, three days, almost, almost you could say three minutes is long enough to know. You know you’ve got, there’s an attraction there isn’t there? You see, you’ve -
CB: Right. So, after how long did he propose?
MW: How much?
CB: After how many weeks or months did he propose to you? How long did you know him before he proposed?
MW: Oh only a few, they were all a bit like only, oh it must have been less than a month but he, and he used to make a joke of it because he used to send the boys, the other boys, the rest of the crew were there. They would say, ‘Oh when are you going to marry Mary then?’ And he said, ‘No.’ No. Oh some date in the far distance he would say but I didn’t, I wouldn’t have married anyone until after the war was over. In my, my, it wasn’t, in my book it wasn’t fair really, to get married, not to, but I had a feeling with the boys, with the bomber boys that they really, they wanted to leave something behind and, and if they could marry you and get you pregnant well they would. You know, there was something being, they knew, I mean all the boys knew that they weren’t, they weren’t likely to come back and of course most of them didn’t. It was only the few that um like Cheshire. Leonard was there at that time and his office was next door to mine until I moved upstairs. I was going to say to you, and I’m digressing, is there a possibility that I could get up to Linton?
CB: Absolutely. Yes. We can arrange that.
MW: I did read somewhere in the magazine that they had, they had funding that they, not that money would make any difference but I would just need the authority and perhaps a driver or something to, to go up for a couple of nights.
CB: Well, we do have a link with Linton on Ouse. There’s a wing commander who is responsible for the history of the place.
MW: Ahum.
CB: So I know we can get that sorted.
MW: You have that.
CB: Ahum
MW: Oh.
CB: Peter Jones who’s the, one of the -
MW: Who?
CB: Peter Jones.
MW: Peter Jones. Oh yes.
CB: Jones. He sent you the album back and he deals with all the, I send stuff to him.
MW: Oh really? Oh.
CB: So we can send that -
MW: He sent a very nice letter.
CB: Did he? Good.
MW: And Heather sent one as well.
CB: Good.
MW: Yes.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Well I would appreciate that because I think now as I say I’m just hoping that I’ll get Roy into a nursing home. Then I can have some free time.
CB: Of course.
MW: And do it because I do feel that this is, this is the last straw.
CB: Yeah.
MW: This is, you know, I really must do it -
CB: Ahum.
MW: Now. Otherwise I might do something disastrous because it is at that pitch at the moment, you know.
CB: Well, we, just keep us posted and we can sort it out. I know that because of a conversation separately that I’ve had with -
MW: Yes. I’m sure.
CB: With Peter.
MW: It would, it’s so nostalgic.
CB: Of course.
MW: But in my mind I can take you to the, to the, in to the headquarters, up the stairs into the adjutant’s room, to the intelligence office, the operations room and, and all those places. They’re all in my head you see.
CB: Of course. Of course.
MW: And it would be lovely just to have. I think it would be lovely -
CB: Ahum.
MW: Just to have a, have a look around again.
CB: So you met Doug when he was twenty two.
MW: He was twenty.
CB: Twenty.
MW: Yes.
CB: And you were twenty two.
MW: Yes.
CB: And um -
MW: He would have been, June the, June the um is it -
CB: ‘Cause the 12th was when he was lost. June ‘42.
MW: When he went down.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes. And then in the August, on the 17th of August he would have been twenty one.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes.
CB: So what was the, you had a lot of choice of aircrew on the station.
MW: Had a lot of -?
CB: Choice of aircrew ‘cause there was so many.
MW: Oh.
CB: What was special about Doug?
MW: I don’t know really. He was just, we just seemed to hit it off. He was a very good dancer and I wasn’t and he was a very good skater. He skated at the ice rink at Richmond. And, and all that but I don’t know I don’t even know whether I knew him well enough to know how much he appreciated music but I’ve always been fanatic about classical music and I still am but whether or not he was I wouldn’t really know. He had quite a nice twinkle in his eye you know. He was, sort of a nice smile. Other than that -
CB: And was he a navigator? What was he?
MW: Was he - ?
CB: Was he a navigator or - ?
MW: He was observer plus navigator.
CB: Right.
MW: Yes. That was a bit more than a navigator.
CB: So he’d been trained in South Africa had he?
MW: No.
CB: Oh he hadn’t. Okay.
MW: No. Here.
CB: Right.
MW: He was a biochemist and he worked for [Joe Lyons] and he’d only just started. Well I mean, obviously, because of his age. He was only twenty, you see when he was killed.
CB: Yeah. And on the airfield, just going a bit broader than this now, you mentioned last time about you were issuing the charts for the raids but the lads would come and talk to you.
MW: Oh, yes they did.
CB: So what was the basis of that?
MW: The basis of that?
CB: Yeah. Their conversations.
MW: Oh their conversations. Well -
CB: Apart from the fact that you were a pretty girl that they came because also they had concerns. Did they?
MW: They would tell you about their personal life. Tell me anyway. And they would say how a lot of them didn’t want to go to the Ruhr and they didn’t, they didn’t, they didn’t know the target at that time when they came in until we went into the briefing room and everybody else was assembled. The met officer and the intelligence officer and briefing and everything and then once they, we had a large board on the wall, blackboard, and they, and then the route and everything was, was up on that board for them and the squadron navigation officer and the intelligence officer would point out various routes to go which were, which had, heavy, heavy flak and or searchlights and things like that but a lot of the time I know that a lot of them didn’t take any notice of what, where and they went their own way. Cheshire did that an awful lot.
CB: Oh did he?
MW: And they would change course and go over the routes that they thought might be more -
CB: From experience.
MW: Yes.
CB: Because what we’re talking about is a big map on the wall isn’t it?
MW: This -
CB: And it shows the route on this huge map -
MW: Yes. But we had -
CB: On the wall at the end of the -
MW: A big blackboard -
CB: Yeah.
MW: As well on the night when we, a big, like at school.
CB: Yeah.
MW: You know, a big blackboard it was and that’s what we had in the intelligence office to write the names of the, we wrote all the names down on the board that were going and who they were and the number of the aircraft and everything.
CB: Right.
MW: On that board so that when, when you came back in the morning, so when they first started coming back, you would be able to, to, you cross off the ones who’d arrived and what time they’d arrived back and then of course the ones that didn’t come back were still there on the board.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But when they came back of course they came straight up to the briefing office, to the interrogation office and the intelligence officer there and I was there and I took the aids to escape from them and made some more, made the tea for them.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But when, when they were talking to me before they took off, not all of them came in but a lot of them came in, it was mainly about they didn’t really like certain targets. Well, that was obvious really that they were heavily, they were going to be heavily bombed, er shot at. The Ruhr was very, very well protected and Hamburg and places, that was a bit further up. Hamburg is a bit further up but um and of course Berlin was almost, at that time, Berlin, you could only carry the Whitleys and the Wellingtons could only just get to Berlin on the fuel they had. And so there was no, no point in trying to go around twice or anything because they hadn’t got the fuel to get there. It was just, just enough fuel to get them in to, in to Berlin and back but, until the Halifax and the Lancasters came in and then they could of course.
CB: So, we’re talking the early part of the war before the heavy bombers -
MW: Yes.
CB: Came in.
MW: Yes.
CB: Right.
MW: And I mean for a lot of the, for a long time when I went to Driffield, at Driffield all they were doing was dropping leaflets from there but um -
CB: How did they feel about that?
MW: Not very good. But we didn’t have it, Chris.
CB: No.
MW: We didn’t have anything. It’s alright for Churchill to stand up there and say that we’ll do this, we’ll do that but we hadn’t anything to do it with until once the factories got going in this country and we made, well we made wonderful progress of course.
CB: So this added to the apprehension of the crews?
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Is what you’re saying?
MW: Yes they wanted to go, those boys. Yes they, but of course a lot of them weren’t so keen on the, on the target. Going in the Halifaxes, they were very so slow but I mean they used to christen the Whitley as a flying coffin.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Oh you know that do you?
CB: I do. Yes. So when the bigger planes came, so we’re talking about the Halifax and Lancasters, but Halifax in Yorkshire, how did the attitude of the crews change?
MW: It did change quite a bit really because they, for one thing we had, at Linton we would have the first Halifaxes to have cameras so you had a camera in there.
CB: For the target.
MW: But it did show a lot. It showed an awful lot in the first, in the beginning that they were, some of them were nowhere near the target.
CB: Right
MW: I shouldn’t say that should I?
CB: No, you should because these are important points and the review that was carried out proved that they were sometimes fifty miles away -
MW: Absolutely.
CB: From the target. And you -
MW: I had a job then –
CB: You were seeing that
MW: In the beginning. I didn’t do a lot of it mind you.
CB: Ahum.
MW: But I did do it because my eyesight is very short-sighted well not very short but good enough to read a very tiny, and I did a lot of looking at the maps when they came back from the cameras and you could see that, you know, then but the boys seemed to appreciate that. And then we had the other. What was it called? H2O I think.
CB: H2S.
MW: H2S.
CB: Yes.
MW: That’s right. Yes.
CB: The radar.
MW: That was fitted and I think that was we were one of the first stations to get that, you see.
CB: Right.
MW: And those maps were very, very secret and we made sure that they signed for them.
CB: Right.
MW: But of course that soon went by the board and everybody got them and that but Linton was very upmarket in that -
CB: Was it?
MW: Respect but it was -
CB: Right.
MW: We were. I don’t know why but, whether we of course later on with Cheshire there and Chesh was there for a long time and it’s – [pause]
CB: So when, when they came back from a raid they came upstairs.
MW: In to the briefing -
CB: Brought the charts back.
MW: In to the interrogation office, yes.
CB: What happened then? How did it then progress with Ivor?
MW: Oh. Well we, they had they had a cup of tea and a biscuit and they, they had a one to one talk with an intelligence officer. We had Ivor Jones and Brylcreem and what was the other ones called? About four of them there.
CB: Right.
MW: One was the manager from Brylcreem. The hair thing.
CB: Right.
MW: We always called him Brylcreem but Ivor Jones was the senior man.
CB: Right.
MW: And, but they all got an interview. A one to one interview with them and asked where they, what they’d done, how, what, what the opposition was like, what the flak was like and, and that and obviously a lot of the time they had been, been, come back with, with a few bomb holes in their, in the aircraft but what height did they bomb from and how many times did they circle around the target and just general things like that and then they were free to go and sometimes they would come back in to my office and have another cup of tea and sit down and talk a bit but other times they went off to the mess and had bacon and eggs and, and you know it was dawn by then you see.
CB: So, what -
MW: But I stayed till about eight in the morning because some nights I was on again you see but I did tell you about the, the, my role in, was, - the establishment in the RAF you know about that. If they allocated, they allocated at that time one map clerk, special duties map clerk for each station and I was that one for Linton but if, if you wanted leave you had to have liaison with one of the corporals or the sergeants in the intelligence office that didn’t deal with maps but would take over from me but I didn’t have a colleague who I could just say, ‘I want leave.’ And that, and that happened on all the stations because we were only needed on bomber stations really because the rest of the, Fighter Command and Coastal and that, they didn’t need a lot of maps there but it was critical for us to have enough maps available for -
CB: Of Germany.
MW: Yes. If, I mean most of it was covered on a 48-4 and the Mercator’s projection map but - [laughs] Yes.
CB: Big.
MW: All came
CB: Rolled up
MW: Rolled up. My poor fingers. They’re very, very harsh. The edges of maps and charts and charts especially. And you’d try to roll them back to get them into these big chests that we had to put them in and they, and you -
CB: Difficult.
MW: Nip your fingers off with the, if you weren’t careful.
CB: So, some of the crew used to return for another cup of tea.
MW: Yes. They did.
CB: It wasn’t the fact it was another cup of tea was it? They came to talk to you.
MW: Probably.
CB: So what would they be talking about in that case?
MW: Oh, what they were going to do, you know, if they, when they got their leave and where they were going to. It’s just, didn’t talk about what they had done so much as what they, their personal life. And I had one or two conscientious objectors and that was very difficult, very difficult because the RAF had paid a lot of money to train a pilot or a navigator and then after eight to ten weeks of training they decided they couldn’t do it and they became conscientious and the RAF is very cruel to those young men.
CB: Ahum.
MW: You know.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Yes.
CB: I’d like to know more though.
MW: Absolutely. Yes.
CB: So what did they do to them?
MW: Well, they, they were just thrown out of the RAF. No two ways about it. There were no references or anything like that given. They weren’t allowed to re-muster to do another job. It was a very cruel and harsh end but a couple of them got out on religious grounds. They couldn’t come to terms with that fact that God didn’t want them to, to kill other people whereas I will say most of the boys I spoke to and Cheshire was certainly had no regrets whatsoever about going over to Germany and bombing. He didn’t. They started this, we’ve got to, we’ve got to, that was Cheshire’s attitude about it but when he, I don’t know what year when he was flying in 617 on the, and he had a Mosquito and he went low level flying and what they call that and he went to a factory to [drop leaflets] to bomb in France.
CB: In France. Yes
MW: You know this do you?
CB: Yes. Go on.
MW: And he circled around three times I think to warn those girls to get out and they did and then he went in and bombed it you see but one of those girls came back to Linton.
Other: Oh really.
MW: To thank him. Yes. And he said, ‘Oh no. Go away’ he said, ‘We don’t, we’re glad you all got out.’ So, that was his attitude but his attitude changed and he was a different character after Hiroshima. And that is what, he was a different character after that.
CB: Because he was on the bomber -
MW: He was on the -
CB: One of the bombers.
MW: Not on the one that dropped the bomb but -
CB: The second one.
MW: The one that was observing. Yes. Yes. I don’t know much about that because it was, it all took place.
CB: Yeah.
MW: You know, there, but it was -
CB: And then he became a Roman Catholic and then he started his Cheshire Homes.
MW: You have to speak up.
CB: He became a Roman Catholic and he -
MW: Oh he was a Roman Catholic.
CB: Also started -
MW: Yes he did.
CB: Started the Cheshire Homes.
MW: The Cheshire Homes with Sue Ryder yes. But I told you about him being married before didn’t -
CB: No. Go on.
MW: Oh didn’t I? Poor old Binney.
CB: Take that for me.
MW: Are you alright for tea?
Other: Yes.
CB: Do you want to stop for a mo?
MW: Yeah okay. Do you want another bit of cake?
[pause]
CB: So, we’ve just taken a brief break and we’ve been talking about conscientious objectors but what about the other people who came under the title LMF. How did you come up against that?
MW: Um I didn’t see a great deal of that apart in, well I suppose in a way it was about three or four of them actually came through aircrew who, who decided that they couldn’t cope and they were known as conscientious objectors. A lot of them did offer the, the reason for not wanting to continue with flying, with, with bombing was that religion and whether or not they’d been religious people before or whether they’d just taken up with religion I really don’t know but it, they were obviously lacking in some moral fibre yes because it takes a lot of nerve to be a bomber pilot at whatever age. They were young men. This must be an awfully hard for you to go out night after night knowing that you’re not, you probably won’t come back and I think these young men probably couldn’t take that. But on the other hand the RAF had, had paid a lot of money to get them trained to be crew, to be aircrew which was all the air crew, as you know Chris were all voluntary reserves. Nobody was conscripted to aircrew and therefore if you felt fit enough and this was what you wanted to do for the country you should have been able to carry it out after that training but um all I did was offer them tea and sympathy but I couldn’t really do much else except listen and, and that’s what I did. To listen to them. They had various problems. They had this and they had that in their personal life which was, which they felt was more important than being, being, being shot down over Germany.
CB: And in many cases they felt a lot better for talking with you.
MW: Well, I wouldn’t know but I think they came so possibly that they did. Yes. Yes, I had a lot of spare time during the day when I was just tidying maps. I had a large office and when I was just tidying maps and checking on numbers of charts and things. Well, one of the charts which was used practically every night was Europe 48-4 on those were I had to order and perhaps if I’d had a delivery well that took a lot of time putting them all away, putting everything away and that but I did have quite a lot of time, spare time, during the day until we got the target and everything and then I needed to get those ready and the aids to escape which all had to be signed for. So, really and truly they, they, they knew that they could probably pop up to see me or pop up for, to have a chat and come in my office.
CB: Could you just explain what the aids to escape were?
MW: Well um they had a lot, the ones that I was involved with were, were things that they put in their boots and there was maps, there’s a silk map. Now one of them, one of these silk maps I had, of France. They’re back to back on both sides. Silk they are. And I, I did have one and I gave it to my cousin and he’s had it framed so you that can have one side one, one side and other as a picture like on the wall and he’s agreed with me that when he dies that he’ll send it to the museum for you. You’ll have it so you can have it.
CB: Thank you.
MW: There -
CB: Yeah.
MW: But um -
CB: What else did they have?
MW: There’s a compass.
CB: Yeah. That’s a small compass.
MW: Small compass.
CB: Pin head type.
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Button size.
MW: That’s right. Yes. And what else were they? I don’t remember too much about, about those.
CB: And then they had made their own arrangements for rations.
MW: Ahum. They, one of, one of the group captains at Linton used to wear a civilian suit underneath his, his uniform.
CB: His battle dress, yes.
MW: But he didn’t fly very often. That was Whitley wasn’t it, was it who did that?
CB: So he could immediately go into civilian clothes.
MW: Exactly. Yes. Yes, yeah, strip off everything if they were shot down and they had a chance of getting away.
CB: Now you moved on from Linton to other places. The Halifax had arrived before you moved. The operations were different because of the camera amongst other things.
MW: Before I moved?
CB: But you moved on from, from Linton. Where did you go to next?
MW: Oh but I was at Linton for three and a half years.
CB: Right.
MW: No. It was Driffield. We were bombed out of that.
CB: Of course.
MW: We did that last time didn’t we?
CB: Yes. Yes.
MW: August the 15th we had a daylight raid.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And we were wiped out of Lint –
CB: Yeah
MW: Er Driffield. Ammunition went up, we’d got people killed and that was a day I shall never forget.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Because it was a daylight raid and it was very early on, you see, in 1940 but, and then I was, then I went, we were moved to Pocklington with 102 and 76 and then we went from, I went on a course and, have I not told you this?
CB: What was the course for?
MW: Well they were very short of cooks.
CB: Oh yes.
MW: They sent me to Melksham.
CB: Oh yes.
MW: To do this course and this was, this was a day when the Battle of Britain was on and I can honestly sit here and tell you that I have no recollection whatsoever of what happened there. Where I was. It is as if there’s a complete blank.
CB: Really.
MW: I know I went to Melksham. I know I passed the course and I know that I came back to Linton but I’ve no other recollection at all and that was because, the only recollection I have of being there is that we were scared out of our wits because they were bombing day and night, daylight bombing and it just went on and on. You couldn’t, but I have a good memory as you know.
CB: This was Germans bombing you?
MW: But I can’t tell you a thing about that.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Nothing.
CB: You’re talking about the Germans bombing you?
MW: Yes. Oh yes. That was the battle yes, the Battle of Britain. That was on then. And then I came back to Linton and that’s where I stayed but I went back to Linton in to the officers’, to the sergeants’ mess to do, to do cooking and I, there was a civilian cook there ‘cause they did have a lot of civilians still working on the stations from the remains from before the war, you see. And the civilian chef and he, he used to give the orders and I took the rations across to the intelligence office. He said to me, ‘Will you take the rations across for the flying,’ for that night. The, the sergeant’s mess and the officers’ mess provided the rations. The tea and the sugar and the biscuits to make tea for them when they came back, you see and I took them across there and Ivor Jones, the intelligence officer, looked up from his desk when I went in and he said, ‘Where are you from?’ And I said, ‘I’m from the sergeants’ mess. I’ve brought the rations for tonight.’ And he said, ‘Oh would you come downstairs with me?’ He said, ‘Would you like, do you know anything about maps?’ I said, ‘No. Not a lot.’ And he said, he said ‘Where is the mouth of the Danube? Do you know that?’ I remember this as plain as anything. I said, is it in the Red, in the, er where was it now? It’s in the, can’t get it, it’ll come back and he said oh and what about so and so and so and so and I seemed to provide him with the answers but I said, ‘What’s all this about sir?’ And he said, ‘I want you to come and work for me.’ I said, ‘I can’t do that.’ I said, ‘I’m already in the, in the -’ you know what it was like in the RAF you had to have a re-muster put you to all the re-mustering, do all that and send it away and they would put it through to the officers in charge. I know this was very early on in the war, in 1940 but it’s he seemed to take command. He was an ex-military man and he, we always called him the colonel and he said, ‘Report to me tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.’ I went back to the civilian chef and he said, ‘He can’t do that. He can’t take my staff.’ I said, ‘Well what I do?’ And so anyway I thought I’d better do what he says. He’s a squadron leader. So I went back and he said, ‘One of these lads, these corporals in the intelligence office, will show you what to do and you can go on a course in about a week’s time to Gloucester and, and then you’ll come back and when you come back you’ll be a corporal. And this, all this happened, you see. It was most, I mean you, you might think I’m telling you a really big story but I’m not. I assure you that is exactly what happened.
CB: And this was all when you were aged nineteen.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: This was when you were aged nineteen.
MW: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: Twenty actually.
CB: Twenty.
MW: Yeah. This is what happened and it was so out of character for anybody to do. I don’t think you’d find anyone else in the RAF who had been promoted like that by, by a squadron leader. Just, just said, ‘Look, you come and you - ,’ and I thought about it afterwards and I thought well I really didn’t know very much. I hadn’t, I had, I wasn’t very good at school really but I was good at geography funnily enough but I wasn’t all that bright at school because I wanted to be outside. I spent most of the time looking out of the window you know instead of paying attention to the board but I think it was perhaps not, it’s not charisma but it’s attraction. People want to talk to me.
CB: Ahum.
MW: And I think he knew that. And of course -
CB: He could sense it.
MW: And this is what worked for him. These boys needed someone. Not motherly love at nineteen or twenty years old but that sort of, so that was where I was and that was where I stayed for the rest of the um until later on. He, he then, Ivor Jones said, ‘I’ve put a recommendation in for you for a commission’. He said, ‘You’ve got an interview,’ on so and so and so and so and I thought about and I said, ‘I don’t want it sir.’ He said, ‘You don’t want it?’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want it.’ And he said, ‘Well,’ Anyway I went and I got accepted but I still didn’t want it.
CB: Ahum.
MW: So I refused and he said, ‘Why don’t you want it?’ I said, ‘I don’t want to be an admin officer for a start.’ I said, ‘I don’t want to be and I don’t want to be, to go away from these boys. I don’t want to leave this job. This job is what I like doing.’ I didn’t like it in that sense but I did, I felt I was needed then, you know. Sort of needed there with looking -
CB: Ahum.
MW: And then a bit later on, another year later he said, ‘Are you, would you, would you consider doing, having a commission now?’ I said, ‘No. I don’t want it.’ It just didn’t appeal to me.
CB: No.
MW: To be sitting at a desk or -
CB: Quite.
MW: Or doing these things so then I moved. I’d say I moved on then a bit. I think we’ve done all this -
CB: I think we have. I need to ask you a couple of other things if I may. One is, you were a number of several hundred WAAFs. Two hundred perhaps.
MW: Oh on the station.
CB: On the station.
MW: Oh yes. Yes.
CB: So what was the general link between the association between the WAAFs and the flying people?
MW: The flying?
CB: The aircrew.
MW: The aircrew.
CB: Ahum.
MW: Oh we all, all the girls loved them of course. I mean if you wanted a date you didn’t have, it wasn’t much if you didn’t have a date with, with, with aircrew or with an officer or something like that you, you, you were aiming a bit high but with aircrew yes they all liked the aircrew boys ‘cause they were fun you see. They were great, they were really, and er but I didn’t have much to do with the other WAAFs really because I was on shift work, you see. I mean my, my duties weren’t nine to five although I was usually there about 9 o’clock but because I would then have to be, be back in the evening, in the middle of the night and that was a bit traumatic when we, we had a very bad raid one night. We were always having, we were always being bombed at that time. They seemed to target the RAF stations up, up in the north and Cheshire came back and said, ‘It looks worse than we’ve left, what we’ve done in Germany.’ This RAF at Linton but um after then they decided that the WAAF couldn’t sleep on the camp so we were billeted out to various large houses in the vicinity and my, I went to Newton on Ouse which is just down the road from Linton. If you’ve been to Linton you probably know it’s just down the road and um but that wasn’t very good because I had to be, go on my bike in the middle of the night to get back to the office to, for interrogation you see and they used to be droning overhead and me on my bike trying to get back because you weren’t allowed lights or anything. But -
CB: It was dangerous on the road was it?
MW: On the road? At -
CB: Yes.
MW: Not in the middle of the night it wasn’t. No. No, it was, it’s very countrified, you know um but you couldn’t see where you were going in the middle of the night with no lights on.
CB: No.
MW: And there’s aircraft droning overhead but, the ones that were coming back because as I say I stayed until, until we cleared everybody and then it was about 8 o’clock or 9 o’clock and then you were so tensed up you couldn’t go to bed really so we used to hop off into York and have a play around, you know, in York for a bit, come back in the afternoon and have a bit of sleep because you might, I might be, be back on again in the evening you see. If the weather was good then I, you would be back on duty again but if the weather was bad you would have a few days off if it wasn’t fit for flying.
CB: Finally, fast forward to 1945.
MW: Hmmn?
CB: 1945.
MW: Yes.
CB: Fast forward to 1945. You, in your diary you’ve got a very brief statement on the 8th of May, VE day. About the end of the hostilities in Europe. The end of the war.
MW: Yes.
CB: Was the 8th of May. How did you feel at that time?
MW: Where, where the 8th of May, where was?
CB: So you’ve put in here, I’m going to have to do, you’ve put in here, “Down to the beach with Pam and Ray. Peace declared with Germany. Had tea at the Met Office.” So -
MW: Oh is it -?
CB: What happened really that day? Did everybody celebrate?
MW: Oh yes.
CB: Did it just go over their heads?
MW: Went mad. Everyone -
CB: Or what happened?
MW: Oh went mad down at the beach and you let all the dogs out. You know, some of the crews and we, we, had their dogs with them but they couldn’t have on the station. They had them boarded out you see and we went and got all the dogs and took them for a walk down on the beach. It was quite a nice day actually then wasn’t it. That, that year.
CB: And then on VJ day the end of the war in the Far East.
MW: Yes.
CB: Then -
MW: Oh I went to down to Plymouth didn’t I, because we were dancing in the Hoe in the middle of the night. Yes. That’s right.
CB: So, there really was a lot of celebration was there?
MW: Oh dear yes.
CB: With these things.
MW: Yes
MW: Yes. So it sounded as though there was plenty going on then.
MW: Yes. Yes.
CB: Yeah. Right.
MW: Well I wasn’t tied up with anybody at all of course. I didn’t get tied up with anybody after Douglas was killed until -
CB: No.
MW: Until I got, got to know Roy. I did know plenty of boys. I mean there was no shortage of friends to go out and that but I wasn’t over serious about anybody.
CB: No.
MW: Until as I say and that was sometimes think it probably wasn’t a good thing but on the other hand I should, should have probably given it a bit more time but it seemed to me that he was very keen to get married and, and at that time he was a very different person you see.
CB: Of course.
MW: A completely different person but this is what people as you say about the young marriages you, about Douglas, there’s nothing to say that that couldn’t have gone completely wrong because you don’t know the future do you?
Other: No.
CB: No.
MW: Although you think at the time that it’s all going to go -
CB: Yes.
MW: Alright but er -
CB: Yes. There’s another entry where there’s a chap who takes you on a flight after the war is finished over France.
MW: Yes. Oh yes.
CB: How on earth did you manage that?
MW: Well, yes. I was a bit privileged in those days and we yes we went over to France. That was, that wasn’t Roy’s crew. That was another crew. That was from Brawdy wasn’t it?
CB: Yeah.
MW: Yes and oh my goodness me how those, I really got to know what it was like being, being on board a Halifax with going over there oh it was awful. So little space in those things. You couldn’t, and of course you had to wear oxygen masks in those things. Nowadays, it’s completely different and yes that was quite exciting. I’d been wanting a flight but when I got to, I was at Shawbury, not Shawbury, Silverstone. You know the race course that was RAF and I was there for a short time. It was training and they wanted somebody to, to clear the map office ‘cause they hadn’t they’d had they hadn’t had anybody but they had a lot of instruments hanging about, navigational instruments so I went there for a short while and while I was there the nav officer said to me, he said, ‘Now if you don’t behave yourself you’re going up to Lossiemouth tomorrow’[laughs]. He would, he would threaten me you see and I kept saying, ‘Now when you’re going to Oxford again can I come for the trip?’ And he promised me. ‘Yes, he would. We would go.’ So, this particular day it was a really lovely sunny day and I said. ‘Now, look, can I come to Oxford with you if you’re going? And, ‘Oh alright but you won’t like it.’ I said, ‘But look it’s a lovely sunny day.’ Of course it was. There was all this, all this cloud about you see and oh God it was a terrible trip. This was in one these twin light aircraft. What was it? Anson?
CB: Anson.
MW: Anson. Yes.
CB: Avro Anson.
MW: Anson Avro Anson. It was the most awful trip. I’ve never felt so sick.
CB: Did you sit up at the front?
MW: Hmmn? Yeah I went up to the -
CB: Did you sit up at the front?
MW: Yes of course but of course it’s the cloud -
CB: Twin engine. Yes.
MW: But you have to run into cloud and then it went whoohoo! all over the place in those light aircraft in those days.
CB: I must just go to the loo.
MW: Ahum.
CB: Thank you.
MW: I hope it’s clean and tidy. Anyway how are the flowers?
Other: Oh doing well. Thank you very much.
MW: Are you still going?
Other: I’m still going.
MW: Oh good.
Other: Only, only really it’s more of a social thing I suppose because I’ve been doing it -
MW: Don’t, don’t give it up.
Other: No I won’t.
MW: It’s so therapeutic.
Other: It’s my, it’s one of my pastimes.
MW: Isn’t it?
Other: Yes. That’s right.
MW: The next time you come I’ve got a really lovely Daphne out here.
Other: Oh have you?
MW: Yes Daphne, not Miseria um Daphne Odora
Other: Ah huh.
MW: Marginata. And the scent is gorgeous.
Other: ‘Cause not many, not many flowers have a scent now do they?
MW: Not at this time of the year. No.
Other: No.
MW: No. And my, at the back I’ve got so many Hellebores out this year.
Other: Have you? Its’ been a good year for Hellebores.
MW: Have you got Hellebores?
Other: I have. They’re down at the bottom of the garden.
MW: Oh right.
Other: I can just see them.
MW: Yeah.
Other: I’m being very lazy actually because I need a gardener to come again and sort me out.
MW: Right.
Other: The lawns are all fine. They’re all being treated
MW: Yes.
Other: And airyated and God knows what but um -
MW: Well I have the gardener once a fortnight and I’m not giving up that.
Other: No, your garden’s lovely. Your garden’s lovely but you’ve got good soil.
MW: Ahum.
Other: My soil is clay based.
MW: Oh yes.
Other: And it’s a nightmare.
MW: Well I say good. This is sand really it’s -
Other: Yeah.
MW: Sandy.
Other: But it’s looks lovely rich, dark soil.
MW: The water runs through that you need in the summer. It goes very dry.
Other: Yeah.
MW: But I mean the Camelia’s on this wall I brought some the other day. Out already, you see.
Other: Well it doesn’t know what season it is.
MW: Look at the Daffs.
Other: I know. It’s all the same. I know. They’ve all come through haven’t they? It’s incredible.
MW: Yes. What it’s going to be like in a couple of months because everything will be gone.
Other: Well that’s right.
MW: They’re forecasting snow for the weekend aren’t they?
Other: Yes. Yes they are.
MW: The Daphne’s done very well this year and Peter, my friend brought me another one. What’s that one called? That’s over the side there but I don’t, hopefully it’s going to go, go, right in the corner when, as you go out. The Sarcococca, have you got that?
Other: No. I haven’t.
MW: Oh that’s, when you go, when you go out it’s right on the drive.
Other: Ok.
MW: It’s got little white flowers on it.
Other: Lovely.
MW: And the scent is fantastic.
Other: Beautiful. Oh I’ll have to look.
MW: Just pick a bit and take it off with you.
Other: I’ll just have a little look.
MW: Smell it in the car going out.
CB: Sounds super. Thank you.
Other: Yes.
MW: It’s really gorgeous.
Other: Yes. Yes
MW: Yes. Everything seems to be -
Other: Well as I say nothing knows what season it is.
MW: What it is, no.
Other: That’s the trouble.
MW: No.
Other: Isn’t it? Everything’s coming through far too early.
CB: Well the trees are blossoming where I am.
Other: Yeah it’s crazy isn’t it?
CB: Well we were just talking about the Daphne’s and things but I say my garden comes first. I mean I could really go to town on this house and have it all decorated but I’m not going to.
Other: Why bother? No. It’s, it’s
MW: Why spend the, I’d rather spend the money on the garden, you see.
Other: Exactly. Exactly ahum.
CB: You need to get going in a minute I know but final point blossoming is interesting comment in a way, a word because you have all these young girls who are WAAFs on an airfield and you have these young men and they were young men become real men very quickly in the terror of the war. How did the WAAFs react? They blossomed quickly? What was the sort of way things went with WAAFs?
MW: What was the -
CB: How did they react to being in the air force in these circumstances?
MW: In - ?
CB: How did the WAAFs react to being in front line station like Linton?
MW: I don’t think we thought anything about it. I didn’t think, I don’t think we even gave it a thought that we were in, no, I’m sure we didn’t.
CB: But they grew up quickly as well.
MW: We grew up quickly and oh yes, my goodness.
Other: Had to.
MW: You had to. We, it wasn’t, we were there to do a job and at the RAF as you know they, don’t suffer fools gladly. You have to do that job. I’m very concentrated and if I but I go in the straight line, I can’t sit on the, everything goes this way but of course I’m very much a perfectionist as well and I think that gives you, in the RAF that’s, they don’t want, they can’t have people who can’t take orders. If you’re given an order you that’s it, isn’t it?
CB: Let’s get on with it.
Other: Yeah.
MW: No, I don’t honestly think that any of the WAAFs that I knew I knew mostly met office girls in the later stages because sharing a hut and being, being, being an NCO you had, you were given charge of a hut or a house. In the early days at Linton and at Driffield I lived in the married quarters that belonged, that the RAF people had vacated when, you know, the wives, when the war started.
CB: Ahum.
MW: We had their bedding and everything because that was all supplied by the RAF as it is today of course. They, you, you go in naked and you come out naked really don’t you? Because they provide everything -
CB: Yes.
MW: For you but, and it is a very good life if you, if you can stand the discipline.
CB: Yes.
MW: Yes.
CB: So here we are in a barrack hut with all these young girls. How difficult were they, as their corporal, to manage their activities?
MW: It wasn’t very difficult really. I know there are a lot of stories. I’ve heard a lot of stories about the WAAF went off with airmen and got pregnant and so on and so forth but it was few and far between in my experience. I mean, you had to be in at five to midnight or whatever it was and you did it. I mean, If the circumstances where you didn’t catch the bus well you just had to pay the price for it. It was there were no excuse in the RAF.
CB: Ahum
Other: No.
MW: No. You just and I think, in my opinion the RAF is rather maligned really in as much what we did during that war hasn’t been, had enough said about it. We did, Bomber Command didn’t win the war as people have said but my goodness what we’d have done without them I’m afraid is, I dread to think. We couldn’t, with Hiroshima coming forward that much if we hadn’t done Hiroshima we would still have been fighting now wouldn’t we? They wouldn’t have given in would they?
CB: No.
MW: No. No.
CB: Well on that note I think we’d better let you get on. Thank you very much indeed and we’ll arrange another meeting. Thank you -
MW: Well I don’t think we have done very much today.
Other: Let’s get all this into -
CB: We’re just talking about Mary’s dog tags and the plane. What was the origins of those.
MW: The dog -?
CB: Those that everybody wore.
MW: Oh yes one is fireproof and the other’s waterproof. Yes.
CB: Right.
MW: And I don’t know which is which mind you but if you were in a bombing raid over here or anywhere if you’d been, if there was very little left that would still be there to recognise, say that that was you.
CB: Ahum.
MW: You had been there and equally if you’d been drowned this one of them would be.
CB: Right.
MW: We were issued with these on the first day and you wore them around your neck.
CB: Right. And it’s got your service number on it.
MW: Yes, your, its um and your religion.
CB: Yes.
MW: I think. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
MW: I say that. They need a bit of a clean-up.
CB: Okay.
CB: And this is little bits of silverware when they were making the Mosquito. They had to use a certain amount of silver in it and there were little bits left over and the boys would make little things like, and this is -
CB: A brooch.
MW: It’s a little brooch from, it’s pure silver and it is from a Mosquito.
CB: Fantastic yeah.
MW: A Mosquito? Yes, it would be, I think. Yes.
CB: Ok. Thank you.
MW: And you’re very welcome to those.
CB: So what we’re looking at now is the detail.
MW: Yes these are -
CB: Where the grave -
MW: Are all the correspondence from you?
CB: Yes. Thank you. And in your binder here we’ve got details of the grave of
MW: Yes.
CB: Douglas Arthur Harsum, your fiancé.
MW: Yes. That’s 58 Squadron. That’s his number and reserve -
CB: And he died on the 12th of June 1942.
MW: Yes. And I think that’s the rest of the crew and that’s his headstone -
CB: Right.
MW: In Bilbao. And these are on board the boat.
CB: How many years was it before you found where he was buried?
MW: This is only about eight or nine years ago.
CB: Right. So it -
MW: Going back.
CB: So it took sixty years -
MW: Yes.
CB: To find out -
MW: To find out.
CB: Where he was.
MW: Ahum.
MW: And I stood there and I mean it’s probably been on the internet. My cousin came for the day and I’d had this well not because of that but I said to him, ‘When you’re playing about on your computer would you like to have a look and see if you can find where this young man was buried?’ And he came back with it. Hello.
Other2: Hello. Hello. Hello.
Other: Hello.
MW: I said um and he came back the next morning. He said, ‘Well that was easy there was only one Harsum in the RAF.’ Because it’s a very unusual name.
CB: Yeah, indeed yeah.
MW: And he said he’s in so and so and so and so and I said to Roy, ‘Would you like to come?’ And he said, ‘No I wouldn’t,’ he said, ‘But why don’t you ask David if he would.’ So we, I rang David and I said, ‘How do you think about it?’ I said, ‘If I pay everything because I’d got this legacy you see from -
CB: Oh did you? Yes.
MW: And I said the three of us will go. And we went and I stood in front of that headstone and it was, I could almost hear Douglas say. ‘You’ve come at last.’
CB: Really?
MW: It was -
CB: It’s very touching.
MW: Strange. It really is. But it’s such a beautiful place.
CB: Is it?
MW: And do you know when we went in the lady that keeps it going she’s English married to um whether he’s Italian I think he’s probably Italian and she took us to the little, the book where you can, and I wrote in it.
CB: A Book of Remembrance
MW: And there’s a little church, a catholic church and, and a protestant church. Catholic one’s not used very often but she said the protestant one they always use it on Remembrance Day and it is open on some occasions but it’s so well kept.
CB: Is it?
MW: And this is a communal grave of course.
CB: Yes. Right -
MW: But that’s on board the, the Bilbao and -
CB: That is the
MW: That’s the -
CB: Commonwealth War Graves. Yes.
MW: And there are the war graves. Can you see [?]
Other: Yes, I can see. Yes. Yes.
MW: You can see and these are, [pause] oh that’s Lorna and me.
CB: Yeah.
MW: And that’s the lady who looks after it and I say there was a cockerel running around.
CB: Oh was there?
MW: I think that’s him there. And when we went back a couple of days later there was a rabbit
CB: Oh was there?
MW: Running around.
CB: Really?
Other: Wow
MW: Beautifully kept.
CB: Yes.
MW: And these are all the ones that, is this of any interest?
CB: Yes. Thank you.
MW: Would you like to take it?
CB: We’d like to borrow that as well.
MW: Would you?
CB: Yes. And let you have that back.
MW: Ok. Oh well you can have a look -
CB: Yeah.
MW: At it when you get back.
CB: Thank you.
MW: I mean you, as I say there’s only us three on it.
CB: Yes.
MW: And you’ll recognise me -
CB: But it’s an important link in what you’ve been talking about.
MW: Right. Well you take that.
CB: Thank you.
MW: And I’ll keep all your correspondence.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Mary Ward. Two
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Ward joined the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force in 1940. She served briefly at RAF Driffield but mostly at RAF Linton on Ouse. She trained as a cook before being moved to duties as a map officer. She prepared maps for briefings and debriefings. She was engaged to a flying officer, Douglas Arthur Harsum, who was killed in action on 12 June 1942. She offered a listening ear to aircrew who would visit her for tea and a chat. She describes their fears and the dilemmas of those whom she calls ‘conscientious objectors’. For a time she worked in the office next to Leonard Cheshire’s. She describes the VE and VJ Day celebrations, as well as a flight she took in a Halifax over France. She transferred to RAF Coastal Command towards the end of the war, serving at RAF Brawdy, where she met her husband Roy Ward. She also describes visiting Harsum’s grave in Bilbao some sixty years after his death.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-17
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Mal Prissick
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:11:12 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AWardEM160217
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Coastal Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Great Britain
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Spain
Spain--Bilbao
Yemen (Republic)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1942-06-12
1945
aircrew
animal
briefing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
Cook’s tour
coping mechanism
debriefing
fear
final resting place
grief
ground personnel
H2S
Halifax
heirloom
killed in action
lack of moral fibre
love and romance
military service conditions
operations room
RAF Driffield
RAF Linton on Ouse
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/3519/WhittleG.2.jpg
5db8e5ab7f504e33ee8fdd28593061a7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/3519/AWhittleG150626.2.mp3
101772ee338ddf0cb41c285d70c6cb1c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whittle, Geoffrey
G G Whittle
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-26
2016-08-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Whittle, G
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Gordon Whittle DFM (1923 – 2016, 1397166 Royal Air Force), as well as his log books, photographs and memoirs.
Geoffrey Whittle flew operations as a navigator with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna.
There is a sub-collection of 25 Air Charts, mostly of Great Britain.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Denise Field and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Whittle, it’s the 26th of June and we are in Ruskington. So if you could tell me a little bit about your life and your experiences please?
GW: I was born in London, the outskirts of London, southern side and, I came from a family, printing background. My grandfather at one time had his own business; my father was in the national press. So I was destined with my brother to become printers as such, em. I was pulled away from school at the age of fourteen to take up an apprenticeship, which were not easily obtained unless you had an insight into the business. So I started off my career path as a trainee printer. The war came along, ‘39 and we were nicely placed when things hotted up in 1940 to be on the path to central London for the bombers. So at that time I was working in London, going in every day and was subjected to the bombing then my firm pulled out to one of its subsidiary operations in Hertfordshire in Letchworth. So I sort of missed that and I missed a further lot of the bombing. I used to get it or see it when I went home for the weekend or a little bit longer. Anyway coming up to the age of eighteen I felt that I was going to be called up. In the meantime my brother who was seven years older than me joined up immediately after the war started and was due to come home for commissioning selection on the day that Hitler started his push. That went by the board and he then became a prisoner of war at St Valerie. He was attached to the Fifty First Highland Division, that leads on to another story of my life. So I decided I was going to be called up, there was no way about it, but so ah, in 1941, so I had no desire to go into the army, no desire to go into the navy, so a sure fire way of getting into the air force and interesting of course, was to volunteer for aircrew duties. So I duly went off in October ‘41 for selection process and I was invited, I think that is the right word to use. Invited at the time to consider training as an observer, this was a precursor to the special navigation, bomber, gunnery thing that took place before the four-engined bomber came in. I was eventually called up in March of 1942 and went through the sausage machine at Regent’s Park and three weeks, what do you call it now boot camp, I suppose at Brighton and then down to Paignton for OTU, for, ITS Paignton in the summer months, it was rather an idyllic time the weather was superb, swimming every day and we had taken over the various hotels and things on the front at Paignton that was just across the beach. Oh, incidentally we were told while we were at St John’s Wood, Regent’s Park that we would not be going overseas for training. That was a little disappointing though as one had thoughts of going to South Africa or Canada but it didn’t in fact materialise. With hindsight one can see why when they were building up the ‘43 force, ‘43 and they wanted more people to go through the machine. Anyway it was from Paignton we went to Eastbourne for elementary air navigation school where we were doing all the ground work. We were eventually moved out of Eastbourne because of the nights we spent standing around the streets when the air raid warning had taken, been given and we moved up to Bridgnorth, I was only at Bridgnorth for two or three weeks and from there I went to West Freugh in Scotland, south of Stranraer on the Mull of Galloway. We arrived there the end of October the beginning of November and we had the joys of Scottish winter, in the winter time at a place called Stranraer. I have no idea what it looks like now, but it was pretty grotty, to use such a word in 1942. We did our flying and I vividly recall we had a great passing out parade there were sixty on the course. Em, great passing out parade at about four o’clock in the afternoon on the 1st of March 1943 and that same night we entrained for various OTUs that we were going to, no leave, nothing like that. So overnight travel from Scotland down to 27 OTU which was at Lichfield where one crewed up pilot and wireless operator, I think that was really the three of us and converted onto the Wellington. That is where I was fortunate enough to be picked and it was absolutely true that one has read we were put into a room, all the various categories and out of that crews appeared. I had a chap he was an old man, I was then twenty, no nineteen he must have been all of thirty four. Bill Walker, he had a lot of experience he must have had three or four hundred hours of flying because when he finished his pilot’s training he went off as a staff pilot at an air gunner’s school, great chap, chartered surveyor and we crewed up and flew the Wellington. Converted onto that on various exercises and trips until we were eventually considered competent enough to move onto the Heavy Conversion Unit which 1656 at Lindholme.
DE: The crewing up procedure, who chose who?
GW: The pilot basically, he went round, would you like to fly? I don’t know what the attraction was other than we were both over six foot tall. It made some difference, anyway that’s how it worked.
DE: Did you feel more confident with a pilot who had got more hours and was older?
GW: I don’t think we even thought about it, it was just nice that you had it. He came along, would you like to fly with me and off we went. I think at nineteen we didn’t question life so much as nineteen year- old as youngsters do nowadays. That was the form and we were going through it. So we moved to Lindholme and converted onto the Lancaster and there we met up with the rest of the crew, the flight engineer, the two gunners, and, no the bomb aimer must have been at Lichfield as well, not sure, can’t remember.
DE: Was that a similar process to get the gunners and engineer?
GW: I think so, they happened, it was a long time ago, a long time ago. We just appeared and we converted onto the Lancaster and did some day flying and did some night flying and I think it was the 21st, 25th of July, no correction 25th of June 1943 we were posted to 101 Squadron. Then they had just moved to Ludford Magna from Holme on Spalding Moor and we arrived as I have said on the 25th of June from Lindholme where we did our first operation two nights later. That was a conversion to squadron life, It was a gardening trip, you know Lavashell, minelaying so one was into the thing. And then we carried on, did various trips. The next major trip was on Cologne and then we were in the very last wave. So one saw the fires burning over Cologne a long, long before we got there but it was good initiation. Then after that it was a variety of trips to the Ruhr, Berlin, Nuremberg, Peenemunde, things like that. I can talk more about [unclear] in a minute. Then on our fifteenth operation that was on Hanover, as we were getting close to the target we were first of all coned by a searchlight and within seconds hit by anti-aircraft fire and by a night fighter which was not funny [laugh]. The port inner engine caught fire, the distance reading compass in fuselage in the back, it took one of the night fighter bullets, we had holes in the aircraft and we also had a small fire in-house in the fuselage. Anyway the flight engineer put out the fire we did a steep dive to port, when I say put out, he feathered the engine and deep dive to port and that fortunately put the fire out in the engine and also shook off the night fighter. Then he went back and started trying to put the fire out in the fuselage with a few bullets going off around him because it was affecting the ammunition trays. We were warned to stand by to bail out, Bill pulled the aircraft up back to about fifteen thousand feet and dropped the bombs and proceeded on. The fire broke out again, the rear gunner had a little problem, the flight engineer and the mid upper gunner pulled him out. We were very restricted with navigation equipment, I lost all my stuff in the dive to port, it just slid off the table. I managed to save my computer, Dalton computer and a pair of compasses, a few pencils and that was it. Anyway we stood by to bail out and being good aircrew we had a little discussion and decided, let’s try to get home, and we did. According to the reports after at the first debriefing the weather was not all that good. We got back, diverted to Lindholme, landed did a ground loop [laugh] finished up somewhere in the nether regions of Lindholme. Scrambled out of the aircraft and had to wait to be picked up. The port wheel had been punctured that was the trouble as we hit the ground we went round.
DE: Obviously the port engine had been hit.
GE: The aircraft was a write off. Anyway that was on the 25th of September, 27th of September, the 27th, the 27th. Three weeks after that the pilot and the flight engineer both received Gallantry Medals, immediate awards. Two weeks after that the wireless operator and myself each received immediate awards of a Distinguished Flying Medal and the other guys, the bomb aimer who was an officer, got the DFC and the two gunners got DFMs so we were all decorated with the immediate awards. The interesting thing about that was that the beginning of November a little later in November I was gazetted as a pilot officer with effect from the 27th of September so in fact I flew as a sergeant but was a pilot officer as indeed was Bill Walker and, so we both received medals as opposed to the officer awards. The interesting thing on that of course was the recipient of the DFC received forty pounds gratuity which went immediately to the RAF Benevolent Fund. As a sergeant we received twenty pounds which we keep and twenty pounds went a long way [laugh]. Anyway that was that and that was a memorable day.
DE: You mentioned the rear gunner had a problem, what was that?
GE: Oxygen mainly and I think and obviously overcome by fumes with the stuff burning was going down into his turret and that probably affected him some, he was recovered they pulled him out and gave him some more oxygen and then he went back into his turret. The pilot lost his controls, they had been severed. So it was all in all an interesting evening but we got back. Anyway we did not do very much flying in October. We were due to go on leave and nothing happened anyway on the next trip that I mentioned earlier I perforated my eardrum in flight and I was whipped off to hospital. Whilst I was there unfortunately my crew were shot down on the third sortie without me near Liege in Belgium on their way to Stuttgart. By that time we had acquired an extra member of the crew, the ABC operator, and so they were shot down and the pilot, the wireless operator and the navigator who replaced me did get out em, the pilot and the wireless operator became prisoners of war and the navigator in fact got back to England. All three of them have since died so I am now the sole survivor of that original crew. And that is why for very good reasons I am so interested in this Bomber Memorial because the names of the crews will go up on the walls and I think that is something they deserve. The wireless operator had a young son he was six months when he was killed and I tied up with his son twenty odd years ago and I normally see him once a year and that is very interesting and I think he likes it as well, it is a connection to his youth and a father he really did not really know. On the trips the interesting ones, Peenemunde which was quite out of the ordinary, it was done on a full moon when of course we never flew. So to be called suddenly to ops in the middle of August or July, I will have to look up my facts, was quite surprising and then usually as a navigator we didn’t get a pre main briefing, nav briefing, when so often we [unclear] our routes and basic stuff, although it was the final stuff before the main briefing the final met forecast so we could produce our flight plan. And when we arrived in the crew room, who should be sitting at the top table, one Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris [laugh]. The briefing took place and there it was when the curtains went back and this red line right across the North Sea a straight route virtually to some obscure place on the northern coast of Germany. And the bombing was at six thousand feet which was unusual. So all of these sort of things were quite intriguing but nobody would tell why we were going there, and so Arthur Harris finished up by saying ‘well I can’t tell you about the target all I will tell you, that it is vital that it is knocked out and if you don’t knock it out tonight you will go back tomorrow night and the night after and the night after until you have knocked it out’. We had the master bomber technique, first time on the main course raid, I must admit he didn’t sound over encouraging the way the markers were going down, the bombs were going down. I did really think on the way back, it was an eight hour trip, something like that em, full moon, saw a couple of aircraft shot down, I was looking out the astrodome. I really thought we would be back the next night and I must admit it was a great relief to get up somewhere around eleven o’clock, twelve o’clock next day to find out the raid had been a success. Great relief, and of course it was a great success from the point of view of slowing down the flying bombs. The impact that would have had on D-Day, let alone the civilian population. But I did experience when I went home on leave the odd V1 and V2 [laugh] not funny especially the V2, you did not hear anything but the bang. The interesting thing about the master bomber technique, they trialled it two or three weeks beforehand with a small force of one hundred and fifty Lancs from 1 Group another hundred and fifty from 5 Group and we were split up onto three targets, Genoa, Milan and Turin. 1 Group had fifty on Turin, the 5 Group had fifty on Milan if I remember correctly and twenty five each went to Genoa. The time of attack was one o’clock, ‘oh one hundred’ on Sunday morning. We were doing quite well, it was a nice night to fly, saw the Alps for the first time in one’s life and I was three or four minutes ahead of my actual time for my ETA so I would do a traditional dog leg sixty degrees one way one hundred and eighty the other, that saved three minutes. Sixty, one twenty and then we were back on track. We arrived at the target, virtually 1 am and the interesting thing was, God bless the Italians that as we were approaching the target it was quite lit up with anti-aircraft fire. Guns going off everywhere, since the first bombs went down they completely stopped [laugh]. We had quite a free run, but it was a long flight back to there and back all over France but that was interesting. As I say we trialled the master bomber technique before it was actually first used. The Berlin trip, well I was asked to do it and on that particular occasion I flew with the squadron commander and, we arrived back about five o’clock in the morning, debriefed and went straight on leave that was our scheduled leave. So I arrived back in London that evening and went out, in civilian clothes. I always changed when I went home and went to our local pub. It was quite intriguing I had a chum there that I met up with who was in uniform, the barman said to him ‘were you over Berlin last night?’ ‘No but he was’, turning to me [laugh]. The barman almost dropped dead to see somebody in civilian clothes, but that was how life was. So what happened after that, I went to hospital, the crew were shot down, came out of hospital. I was grounded for six months and started doing a bit of some instructional work around various places in Lincolnshire. All wartime airfields no longer exist, doing a little bit of navigation and things like that. Then I got my flying category back to eight thousand feet and was sent off for reselection. I went to Eastchurch and I was there on D-Day. I was playing cricket on D-Day, officers versus sergeants watching all these aeroplanes going over wondering what the hell was going on, of course we had no idea. I, asked to go onto Mosquitoes but was told my height restriction would not allow it because the minimum height restriction was twelve thousand feet so I went to Air Sea Rescue, I went down to Cornwall and the aircraft we were flying was the Warwick which was the airborne lifeboat version of the Wellington really and we had a few Sea Otters as well. When the fun moved away from, that part of France, the Cherbourg area the light aircraft moved over to Kirkeville but we were still based in Cornwall. That went on for five or six months and then we were disbanded.
DE: So what did the work entail there, was it patrols?
GW: Standing by more than anything else, I never dropped a lifeboat in my life. We never had to for the main concentration was more to the east than we were. But I say, we were disbanded eventually. So it was back again into the sausage machine and, back for training, I went to [Millom?], did a bit of flying there, then went to Half Penny Green just outside Wolverhampton. And that was then I knew I was going to go into what they called the Tiger Force on Halifaxes and probably glider towing. Then the war finished.
DE: You were on Halifaxes and glider towing because you still had the height restriction?
GW: Yes, as I say I would have done but it never happened, say the war in Europe finished and two or three months of waiting and the war in Japan finished so that was it and like so many aircrew who were non-operational at the time we were invited, what would we like to do? I was still young I was twenty two at the time I thought why would I want to work in an office or that sort of lifestyle? So I opted for the RAF Regiment and I went into the RAF Regiment, went to Germany and trained on armoured cars. I did my basic training, footslogging around here at Belton where the RAF Regiment depot was at that time. I then moved down to Oxford, Boarshill where the armoured car school was and converted onto the Humber armoured car and all the tactics attached to it and then went to Germany as the two I/C of an armoured car squadron. That was interesting, as I say I was a flight lieutenant then and went off. Anyway I was still an apprentice and I was expected to go back to it.
DE: Onto the printing?
GW: Yes back to printing. So I had to take my demob which I did. Went back, decided it was not the life for me so I went round to the RAF Regiment people in London and said, ‘what are the chances of coming back?’ and they said ‘yes we’ll have you extended service commission for four years’. So without consulting my father I gave up my apprenticeship, I cancelled my indentures and rejoined into the RAF Regiment and whilst I was there did a spell at Upavon and then I went out. Yes I did some time at the depot and went out to Upavon and from there I went out to Aden and commanded 4001 Armoured Car Flight. The obvious the Humber car flight and it still exists today in the RAF as a unit. Whilst I was in Aden the wanted, sent out requests for volunteer pilots and navigators to rejoin as aircrew, go back to aircrew, volunteer for aircrew and I did volunteer for that and I did go back. So January 1950 I em, went back into flying duties, finished up in the all-weather world, and funnily enough by that time I got my full flying category back. So that was acceptable and I went into the all-weather world flying Mosquitoes then Meteors. In between times I did the odd ground tour. From the Mosquito I went out to Egypt [unclear]. The pilot I was em, due to join up with, I incidentally when I done my conversion into Mosquitoes I flew with the chap who was taking command of the newly-formed 219 Squadron and then he was going to fly with the nav Leader when got out there, and my chap never appeared so I became station navigation officer. Still did a bit of flying with them then converted to the Meteor and did a bit there. Came home, had a ground tour then went back to flying, went again into Germany as the nav leader of 85 Squadron flying the Meteor and then the Javelin. Whilst I was there my ear blew up again and I perforated it again. So that was the end of my flying. I went to take up my staff college qualifying exam. I then went to staff college in 1959 and whilst we were there were told quite happily by the air member for personnel that the majority of us did not have a full career left in the air force because they were all coming, the younger people were coming out from Cranwell and they had to have first preferences. That was a nice thing to hear, there were about seventy or eighty of us. One or two did get to the top obviously that will always happen. So I went to Fighter Command Headquarters on staff and em, and there I decided to retire, I then had two children and there was eleven years between them and I decided that I would get out and take early retirement. So I retired from the air force in December 1961. Having had such a hatred of working in an office what did I do? I went into banking [laugh]. I saw a friend of mine from air force days who went into it and seemed to enjoy it. It was industrial banking mainly not high street stuff, it was more flowing but it wasn’t my forte. I never objected to the year I spent at it. It made me realise that there was a difference from being an officer in the Royal Air Force with people telling you or you telling people what to do and the discipline attached to it, to mixing with the great British public. It was a very good leveller, I have never objected to that, yeah, although it wasn’t my forte. So whilst I was doing that I thought this is not my scene, let’s look around, see what’s coming up. I saw one or two things and eventually I saw an advert in the paper for management officials in NAAFI the Navy Army and Air Force Institute to train. There was an age limit of thirty I was then thirty five or thirty six so I thought let’s have a go at it and see what happens. My service career will offset the age difference, which it did. So I joined NAAFI as a trainee district manager and retired from it twenty six years later as a departmental manager. In between times I spent em, I finished my training rather quickly as I was sent out to Cyprus on the emergency when the Turks invaded northern Cyprus. Stayed there for four months then I went over to Libya went home then to Libya and I spent eighteen years overseas with NAAFI of my twenty six years with them. Climbing up the promotional tree, started off as a district manager then I became a senior district manager. Then I spent a year on the island of Gan and then onto Singapore from Singapore back of all places to Cyprus [laugh] and went there as a number two to Cyprus. Then back home for a short period and then I had London region, then I went to Singapore. I think I got the sequence right, anyway I went to Singapore twice. First of all, oh, from Gan I went to Singapore on special duties and I was a useful [unclear] for them as I knew the services a lot better than many others and I was doing a lot of liaison work and exercise planning and that sort of thing. Then I went back to Singapore a second time. That’s it from Singapore I had London, interesting working with the Brigade of Guards and all that sort of thing around London. And I then went back to Singapore running the Far East show as the command supervisor. From there I went to Germany as the number two for the whole of Germany and from there into London as a departmental manager. And I retired from there, I stayed on, they were going to retire me at sixty one which was the normal age but I said, I was not ready to go, I was very friendly with the em, I was very friendly with the MD and I stayed on until just before I was sixty five. That’s a long time ago.
DE: When was that?
GW: 1988. When I retired I spent a few months not doing a great deal except getting used to being retired and that sort of thing. We bought a new house in Hampshire, I already had a house in Aldershot which we sold and I bought another one just outside of Hindhead in Hampshire. I always had an interest in local politics but something I could never indulge in because of my in and out of the country all the time. Fortunately I got tied up with the local Conservative Party and became the secretary and things like that. In 1989, one of the two district councillors from my village had to pack up for business reasons. I said I would be quite happy to stand if it was for them, I did and I got elected and that was the next phase of my life. I carried on doing that up until the end of January 19 – no not 19, the end of January 2007 when we moved here, because my daughter and son had both moved to Ruskington. My daughter moved into the army and when her husband retired, a lieutenant colonel he was working in Scotland and then they eventually went back to the house in Hampshire. Decided they knew nobody but had friends here, one day approached us in ’89, ‘we are thinking of moving to Lincolnshire will you come?’ So what do you say? And we said we would, this is what happened. Then my son came up and spent some time with his sister and also bought a house in Ruskington, so we are all living in the village. And we came here in 2007, January 2007, I resigned from my role as district councillor in Hampshire and saw the local Conservatives here and said, ‘can I be of any use to you?’ That’s another story so I have now finished eight years as a district councillor in North Kesteven. And have started my next four years as I have been elected again. So I have had eight elections and got through all of them, and here I am. Really not for the tape I suppose this bit.
DE: Would you like me to pause it?
GW: If you can for a second.
[Recording paused]
DE: Okay so we are recording again. So earlier on you said you didn’t want to join the navy or the army but you wanted to join the RAF. Why not the navy or the army?
GW: I had no desire to live in slit trenches [laugh] I had a pretty good upbringing, you know life was very nice with my family and things. I didn’t really want to go and rough it in the trenches, perhaps I was too fastidious. The thought of going to sea for weeks on end and being perhaps seasick or anything like that I don’t know. I had no interest in them and perhaps I should go back and finish the story of my brother who was a captain, he was a prisoner of war, he contracted pulmonary TB whilst he was a prisoner of war and was due to be exchanged, in 1944, before the war finished. The first exchange they had of prisoners and he had a big haemorrhage and did not come home. But he came back in February 1945 and eh, he was in hospital and he came home he died, in September ‘46. So that was the saga. My brother was as big a chap as I was, an excellent swimmer and he just contracted the disease and I saw him waste away.
DE: Yes, a terrible killer.
GW: I think he attended my wedding, a picture, and that was it, two months later he was dead. So to answer your question there, I had no desire. Don’t forget there was a certain amount of glamour about flying in those days and aircrew were considered to be cuts above some of the others perhaps and nobody knew the scale of losses that Bomber Command suffered. I could never have guaranteed that I would have survived if I had gone on beyond my sixteenth trip, no way.
DE: You wanted to fly then?
GW: Oh yes I was keen on doing it and more so when I got into it, em, I enjoyed the navigation side, I really did.
DE: That was another question em, how did you end up being a navigator rather than any of the other trades?
GW: Well this was the selection process, we had to do one or two tests. I suppose my maths was a little bit better than other people, or what they were looking for at the time. After all the personnel people in London knew what was going to happen in the future and they were planning accordingly. Perhaps there was a shortage of navigators. Remember I started off as an observer and I had to wear the “O” badge and not the “N” badge because we had done a little bit of gunnery, a little bit of bombing, a little bit of photography. Just to get the feel of it, em, when one was flying in Scotland I remember flying past the Blackpool Tower and having to take a photograph and getting that settled and that sort of thing, so we dabbled in the whole lot. It was that before the four-engine bomber coming in, okay the Stirling came in, in ‘42 wasn’t it? The build-up of the Lancaster they compartmentalised, or whatever the word is, we more or less specialised in the particular role. So navigation being the big thing. The bomb aimer up the front dropped bombs, he was also the front gunner and that was it, we had to go through a selection process and took various tests, including a maths test. That was it I was invited to train as an observer, and then actually flew operationally as a navigator.
DE: I see, thank you. You went through in great detail of the times and places where your training was. What was the experience like, leaving home and joining the RAF and the training?
GW: Remember I had left home before and I was living in lodgings in Hertfordshire. So I did use the word remember after the three weeks at Regent’s Park we went and I called it boot camp. Brighton that knocked out any thoughts that you were important at all [laugh]. The drill instructors they were moronic [laugh] without a doubt. I lived in the Grand Hotel in Brighton. We used to parade on the front and of course the AOC of the Training Group 54, that was it 54 Training Group, I can’t remember, was Air Commodore Critchley the great greyhound man and racing man. Nearly all his officers were jockeys, little shorties. We used to parade and these characters would be wandering around making sure we were standing to attention [laugh] then we used to go on drill and the sergeants we had were absolute morons. Lived in the Grand Hotel with none of its splendour. We had our folding beds with three mattresses and I think we had four blankets and two sheets. Every morning we had to make our own beds, and the sheets’ width when we folded them had to be the same thickness as the blankets. So you had blanket, sheet, blanket, sheet, blanket and one blanket round it. You realised within about twenty four hours of getting there that you were never going to sleep in the sheets, because if the bed wasn’t made up the way it was supposed to be. You got back to your hotel, back to your room and there would be the bed all over the place, knocked down by the sergeants, the DIs. Lots of drill, that was boot camp. We lived like that, had to get on with it, the weakest would not survive. Paignton was glorious, I must admit, the West Country was great, the weather was great and life was great. Eastbourne, no problems really except we had many a disturbed night’s sleep, hence the move of the unit to Bridgnorth where we were transferred. Then Stranraer in winter, I can think of better places. Although we were supposed to be the darlings of the world, aircrew cadets, we slept in Nissen huts in double bunks and half the course after we got into the flying side, half the course would be flying at night the others in the morning and there were sixty of us in the hut. It wasn’t exactly glamorous living, the food was awful and then from there it was to Lichfield, don’t remember much about it, I think we got on with more of the job of flying and things. Then Hemswell of course, we were okay, no not Hemswell, Lindholme, the Heavy Conversion Unit, it was mainly flying, we were NCOs, remember up in Scotland and up until graduation we were LACs, Leading Aircraftmen. Then on graduation became sergeants.
DE: Was there a great difference to how you were treated after you became sergeants?
GW: We used the sergeants’ mess, we weren’t restricted as much as when we were airmen. Again [unclear] after the flying, we did not have many administrative duties to do as aircrew. When one was on the Squadron was flying of virtually nothing.
DE: What did you do in your time off when you weren’t flying?
GW: We enjoyed ourselves [laugh] we were young enough to do that. It was on reflection later on in life when one was a little more mature, I had the greatest admiration for my pilot who had a very young son, was married and people like that who were in their thirties and things. We had nothing to lose quite frankly. I can never recall, standing on the peri-track waiting to go out to the aircraft thinking that we wouldn’t come back. There were some that did of course, some just had their problems. But no we really didn’t think that way we didn’t have that responsibility. Okay I had parents but parents are parents aren’t. No we just got on with the job, certainly from my point of view.
DE: Do you think it was different for your pilot having a young son?
GW: I don’t know quite frankly one didn’t talk in that sort of way. We were there as a crew, we lived together except for the pilot, for the, eh bomb aimer, who was an officer he lived in the mess the rest of us lived in a Nissen hut that’s the crew. My pilot was a great smoker, first thing in the morning he would put his hand out of the bed and get a cigarette then light it and then cough and wait for the wake-up call. He em, he’d never smoke in the air, he saw, when he was on his staff job he had a Polish pilot friend who used to get into the Blenheim or whatever they were flying and light up. One day he lit up and going down the runway opening up, the aircraft just went up. Bill’s view was had the aircraft been cleared for smoking then they would have allowed it, because everybody smoked in those days, or virtually everybody. Although he was a great smoker from the first light from waking up in the morning to going to bed, he never smoked in the air. And it used to be great fun because we’d get back, we did the odd nine hours sortie, we would all as we were taxying around to dispersal we would all get back to the rear door to get out to give him the clear run as soon as he had switched off his engines and done what he had to do. He was down that fuselage like a bull in a china shop, out of the aeroplane, over to the edge of the dispersal the great cigarette on [laugh].
DE: So did you not smoke then?
GW: I used to smoke a pipe. My dear father said to me if you are going to smoke, make sure you smoke a pipe. The first time I wore uniform, St John’s Wood, Regent’s Park, we got our uniforms that afternoon, three of us came out of the flats to go the cinema at Swiss Cottage and as we were just leaving the flats up came our young course officer. We threw him up a salute we thought, great stuff this is what you have to do, gave him a salute. He called me back and said ‘young man we don’t normally salute with a pipe in our mouth’ [laugh].
DE: The problems you had with your ears, what were the RAF medical services like, the medical officers in the hospital?
GW: Oh great no troubles at all.
DE: So what was the procedure for?
GW: Well in those days it was powder basically, the second time it was an injection [laugh].
DE: What in your ears?
GW: No it was a sort of type of penicillin we used if I remember. Certainly when I blew it the second time I finished up in hospital in Wegberg. I, used to get an injection for a few days, it was mainly playing it down. I had no trouble with them.
DE: So when the problem first occurred did you first have to report to the Medical Officer?
GW: Oh yes, landed you know I reported, told them what had happened in sick quarters. I can’t remember the time scale but a couple of days later I was off to hospital. I think Northallerton the RAF hospital there. I was there for a few weeks, it was there I was commissioned; I had to be let out of hospital to go down to, to go and buy my uniform and all that sort of stuff.
DE: So apart from when you had trouble with your ears you did not have any contact with the Medical Officer for any other reasons?
GW: No, nothing else wrong with me.
DE: You mentioned one point, I think when D-Day was on, you were actually at the aircrew reselection place at Eastchurch, I have read that this was a rather infamous place?
GW: In what way?
DE: I’ve read that was where people were sent who were LMF.
GW: Could be, wouldn’t know.
DE: Did you ever know or hear of anybody?
GW: Never met anybody, no.
DE: Any rumours?
GW: Possibly, yes possibly one heard about this sort of thing. There might have been some going through and of course they would have been shunted away. No chaps that sort of teamed up with they all went off to other flying duties.
DE: I’m also quite intrigued you – after the war you also got to flying Mosquitoes and Meteors and other aircraft. Which do you think was your favourite aircraft?
GW: Of those three? Oh the Lancaster without a doubt. I wasn’t a happy bunny in the all-weather world, I thought it was a blip chasing job and not a navigation job, but we did the odd navigation exercise and cross countries, n the main chasing another aeroplane, just as a blip on the screen was not my idea of navigation.
DE: Why did you want to get into Mosquitoes towards the end of the war?
GW: Well it was something new, one didn’t realise at the time. The second time I went back I had no choice I wasn’t meant to be back to it.
DE: So why in particular the Lancaster?
GW: Well of course it was the operational time of life. Remember my time on Mosquitoes and the jets was post-war it was only training all the time. Em, the Lancaster was just such a lovely aeroplane, it was reliable, it was fast for its time, mustn’t forget that. And one was doing the job for which one was trained. I was intrigued by navigation. I did do the staff and navigation course later on in life and part of that waiting to go on the course I spent a few hours on Canberras at Basingbourne before that closed down. Filling in time and then I went to Shawbury and did the staff N course. No navigation was intriguing and doing these long flights over to Germany in those days where you did not have all the facilities you have nowadays it was [laugh] it was a challenge.
DE: I suppose it was your job to see that your way should be in the bomber stream and arrived at the right time?
GW: Yeah absolutely. Yes you had it there and you had winds forecast and it was a forecast there was no met coming back from Germany [unclear]. I think the thing was, the only radar the Lancaster had was the Gee box and that used to get swamped by the time we got over Holland, about four degrees east you might get the odd circle afterwards. The big thing was to get as many wind fixes or fixes to take wind strength and things as you were flying over there from UK to Holland and then applying your own thoughts to the met forecast that you received and working on that and then, getting down to N=navigation and time keeping.
DE: Can you describe for me the process of getting a fix for the wind?
GW: Well take it from the radar, you knew the track you were flying, remember you had your map in front of you, your chart, get a fix on the Gee box and it was not analogue, you had to read it on the screen. So speed was of the essence, you get your fix, you plot it on the chart the Gee chart, transfer it onto the other chart. You knew what time you took it, you could work out where you should have been on your course, connect it up to your fix, which incidentally would tell you where you were relative to track and that would give you your wind speed and direction. Now speed is the essence, when you first started training you thought if you could do one, all this within ten minutes it was good going. After a little while on Lancasters and little experience you could do it in a couple of minutes. That was interesting when the war finished I told you I was going onto selection stage again. That we were flying Ansons and we were filling in time, this was at Half Penny Green and flying back on the Anson I could get a fix and read a book [laugh]. Peacetime flying and filling in time, I think I did a three hour cross country and only used one side of a log so completely happy. It is like everything else you become more experienced and more skilful. We weren’t too complicated with em, navigation aids or they could be. So really all we had was the Gee box and astro, we didn’t get any of the other things I think H2S came in and stuff like that. We never got that on 101 Squadron because we were carrying the extra body and extra equipment so the weight factor ruled it out.
DE: You mentioned Harris being at the briefing for the Peenemunde raid, what did you and your crew think to Harris?
GW: [laugh] what a man they called him Butch Harris. As a nineteen year-old two things that stood out at the briefing. First of all when we were all settled in the briefing room, we used to get officers not connected with operations coming in for briefings. I suppose the equipment officer or something like that. First thing he did was to order out anybody not directly connected with the raid. When that happened the curtains went back. He wasn’t gruff, no, another thing intriguing with him, sitting on the stage he had all these aircrew in front of him, what if we had twenty aeroplanes if we had that number, probably a little less, you were thinking in terms of a hundred and forty aircrew plus the various specialists who were also involved. So you had this whole room there, the Commander in Chief Bomber Command. Took a cigarette out of his case got his lighter to light it, it wouldn’t go, perfectly happy he kept flicking it until he did get a light. I thought that to some extent showed the calibre of the man, he wasn’t embarrassed, just got on with it and then at the end you know when he had the final word, his comment you know, ‘good luck chaps, but if you don’t get it tonight, you are going back tomorrow night and the night after’. I don’t suppose really it was until after the war, I read the Max Hastings book on the bomber offensive that one realised how lucky one was to survive sixteen trips. One might have thought then, God if I had known [laugh], who knows but, that’s how it was. It was a phase of life and I have often said it to people, I said it to a lady on Monday with two young children who was flag raising things who was asking me questions. I had to say to her, that 1939 onwards, we were all involved and there was a totally different approach to life from the recent, wars that we have had and God forbid I would have hated to be in any of these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan where you could not identify your enemy from anybody else, but it only impacted on a small percentage of the population, i.e., those that were involved and their immediate families and circle and so people like myself and other. My son never served, my son in law he was in Northern Ireland but he didn’t do Iraq he was out before that. It had no direct impact on us and unless you’ve lived in the ’39 –‘45 bubble and the build up to it before and possibly as it started, it is difficult to envisage how people felt. You can possibly see that as a historian.
DE: Oh most definitely, yes. Which kind of leads me to another question. What are your feelings and thoughts about how the war and in particular how Bomber Command and Harris have been remembered?
GW: Badly, Harris was the only major commander who did not become a viscount. He was fobbed off with a Knight of Garter or something I’m not sure. Never got it anywhere [pause] and a lot of that was connected I think with Dresden and people tend to look on Dresden in a romantic light of the city as it was and not what it actually was. It was a major stumbling block for the Russians to move westwards, it was a railhead, it had armaments there and God knows and therefore it was a prime target at that time. It should have been bombed, the fact that it was destroyed, part of the game. People do not talk about Hanover sorry Hamburg and that suffered just as badly as Dresden did. I can recall when I was in Germany in ‘46 having come out of Hamburg in an armoured car, standing on it on the autobahn outside, looking back and its sheer desolation. But we do not talk about Hamburg because it was an industrial port and things like that. So, Bomber Command were badly done by, I’m never certain that we deserved a Bomber Command medal per se. I think what they have done by giving us the bar is on par with what they did for Fighter Command, Battle of Britain. So they didn’t strike any particular gong for the Battle of Britain which after all was the saving grace of the country at the time. They got us through that period when we were most vulnerable to build on things to get to where they got to in the end. They got their bars, I am perfectly happy with the bar I have got on my aircrew Europe. That did differentiate anyway Bomber Command the people who flew up to D-Day. D-Day got the aircrew Europe Star. People after D-Day got the France and Germany. So yes but I do think that Harris got the bum’s rush so to say and I think he deserved more.
DE: Thinking back to the start of your interview you did mention that you witnessed being on the wrong end of some Luftwaffe bombs in London and again V1s and V2s and then you also talked about was it Cologne and looking down seeing the fires burning because you were in the third wave.
GW: On the last wave, yes. As we approached. I didn’t mention it but this is a real thought a real target somewhere about one o’clock, or later. As we were going along before we got to the target I was thinking had I been on leave, I would have been out or thinking about going home em, at about the time we were bombing. So a little wave and I emphasise the word, a little wave of sympathy went through about doing it and then then it disappeared completely. I had no compunction after that at all. There was a war we were doing it, these targets had to be bombed. I do know some people did suffer, I met a chap at a reunion of 101 Squadron two or three years ago. He lives out at Wragby if he’s still there and he was still having nightmares and hated the Germans. I didn’t, I haven’t had nightmares I must admit. I don’t hate the Germans in fact I lived in Germany after the war as a NAAFI official and I had a Berlin operation, I was in charge of Berlin at one stage completely divorced from the Berlin budget and what went on in the zone. I remember I had a lovely secretary Frau [unclear] whose husband was a real German officer from the Prussian side and one day she was going on about being bombed out, he was in Berlin at the time, he lived in the forest, Charlottenberg area and she talked about being bombed out in 1943. I said ‘what date was that?’ and she told me, ‘I went home because I’d been to Berlin’. Next I said ‘I wasn’t over here that night’ [laugh]. That’s how we got on and we kept in touch for many years after I left Berlin. She died several years ago, no I never had any problem. It’s a phase in life and I said to somebody the other day to me the war was very good because it got me out of printing [laugh] which I did not enjoy one little bit. In those days you know young chaps didn’t have a choice in careers, it was virtually sorted out by the parents. You didn’t have the freedom that they have nowadays. To become a printer was way up on top of the working ladder. Not so sure it is nowadays with unions and who knows what, but no, for me it was a release. Also taking the chance that I did because when I packed it up I was only on a four year commission to start with and I got my permanent commission when I was there.
DE: And then got to see a bit of the world a bit?
GW: And see a lot of the world, so very privileged.
DE: Smashing, I think I have ticked all the little notes I have made. Right at the end if you could tell me your thoughts on the memorial itself that we are building.
GW: I think it is a wonderful idea. I first met the Lord Lieutenant when I, shortly after I became a district councillor and we had our annual civic service and I remember going to that. I was a very new boy, this was in 2007 and the leader of the council, Mayor Marion Brighton introduced me to him, because I had been in Bomber Command and we chatted. I remember him saying to me, I think that this was before the London memorial was built, ‘I think it should be here in Lincolnshire, not in London’. So many of the boys took their last steps in Lincolnshire, you know the twenty two thousand, too their last steps in this county. I remember saying to him, “I quite see where you are coming from sir, I called him sir, but at the end of the day London is the capital of the country and a memorial of that sort should be in London’. I admire him because he did not take any action or overt actions until that was up and then he started. I think he has done a wonderful job and he has an RAF background through his father and his grandfather ha, ha. And I think he is still doing it and I look forward to still being here on the 2nd of October. Who is going to do it or is that still hush, hush.
DE: It is still hush hush.
GW: I don’t care, just want to be here.
DE: Thanks very much.
GW: Pleasure, nice to talk to you.
DE: Oh no pressed record. This is Geoffrey Whittle again, same day same place.
GW: The daily routine on the squadron assuming you hadn’t flown the previous night. Usual thing, get up in the morning, breakfast, go down to the flight or the squadron and Ludford Magna, we lived on one side of the Louth Market Rasen road and the airfield was on the other side. So you go down to the, squadron, might be something going on locally, or not very much. But the main focus was on what was going to happen that night, so you’d be waiting for the battle order to come out. Soon as that was out and pinned up you looked to see if you were on. If you were on the op then your day was conditioned. As a navigator, we would more often than not have pre-nav briefings before the main briefing, that would be a fixed time. Go out to the aircraft and meet the ground crew, not necessary the same aeroplane every time eh, check it over, your own little bit. The gunners would go do what they wanted to do. Then back of to lunch. If I had a nav briefing in the afternoon then you would go down and do your pre-flight planning, then back to the billet. Then off course main briefing, meals main briefing that sort of things, off you go. We were flying in the summer time so all our trips were pretty late at night. Take off, your take off time was fixed then off you go and then ninety percent of the time you would be climbing over base to an operational height and the skies over Lincolnshire used to be pretty full of aeroplanes I can tell you. We developed a system of getting out of it. Saw no point in hanging around, circling with all these people doing the same thing, so we, so we used to shoot off west and climbing steadily and my job then as a navigator to get them back at height over base at the right time, then we would set course. Do the op, get back, land, debrief, breakfast, bed. Sometimes bed would not be until five of six o’clock in the morning. I told you earlier on after our Berlin trip there was no bed it was into Louth, getting the train off on leave. That was it and that went on day in and day out. Then of course we did not fly during the moon period, then you were free, you could do what you liked. There was no booking in or booking out at the guardroom, as senior NCOs and officers you could do as you liked.
DE: So where did you go?
GW: Used to go into Louth.
DE: What were the attractions in Louth?
GW: I couldn’t possibly tell you [laugh]. I could actually it was quite innocent I met a very nice young lady whose parents owned the, was it the Kings Head in Louth? It’s deteriorated, it was quite a nice hotel in these days and they also owned one in Boston. She ran the one in Louth and the parents ran the one in Boston and I would go into Louth and stay the night. Separate rooms I hasten to add. There was none of that nonsense going on in these days. Well it did go on but it didn’t go on in my life. So I would go into Louth or might stay in for the evening and go to the mess, whatever was going on, but, we were not restricted, we were free.
DE: Did you ever go to the NAAFI?
GW: Not as a sergeant. We lived on NAAFI food in Scotland I can tell you the mess food was dire, it was so appalling we had to use it. Yes as an airman I would go into the NAAFI but once one graduated if that was the right word, it was sergeants’ mess, you didn’t go to the NAAFI.
DE: Okay.
GW: They were nothing like they are today I can tell you or they were. They don’t operate in this country now.
DE: Yes quite. Okay thank you very much, I shall press stop again.
Dublin Core
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AWhittleG150626
Title
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Interview with Geoffrey Whittle
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:18:13 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Squadron Leader Geoffrey Whittle was born in London. After leaving school at fourteen he became an apprentice printer in the family business. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force on the outbreak of the Second World War and trained as a navigator. He served with 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna. For his fifteenth operation to Hanover, he was awarded the DFM. Having suffered a perforated eardrum on his sixteenth operation, he was grounded for six months. He then flew briefly with Air Sea Rescue. At end of the war, he joined the RAF Regiment on a short-term commission but continued to serve on both ground and flying duties until retirement in 1961. He then worked with the NAAFI (Navy Army and Air Force Institutes), becoming a senior manager, until 1988. He subsequently became a councillor in Hampshire and Lincolnshire.
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Date
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2015-06-26
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Mal Prissick
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Peenemünde
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1943-06-25
1943-09-27
1944
1945
101 Squadron
1656 HCU
27 OTU
air sea rescue
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
briefing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
Gee
H2S
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Meteor
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF West Freugh
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/207/3343/PBawdenHH1602.1.jpg
df5da1c4c93570824e924665aeffc7c5
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/207/3343/ABawdenHH160810.2.mp3
1b440b405014296da1ac20828edaf0e1
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bawden, Harvey Hayward
Harvey Hayward Bawden
Harvey H Bawden
Harvey Bawden
H H Bawden
H Bawden
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Warrant Officer Harvey Hayward Bawden (419835 Royal Australian Air Force). Harvey Bawden volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force and after training in the United States, flew operations with 153 Squadron from RAF Scampton and 150 Squadron from RAF Hemswell as a mid-upper gunner. He was shot down and became a prisoner of war on his 29th operation.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bawden, HH
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JB: It's the 10th of August 2016, and the interview, my interviewee is Harvey Bawden from xxxxxx, Bendigo, Victoria. Harvey's squadron was 150, rank of warrant officer, and his crew position was mid upper, er, upper mid gunner. Um, so, the date you enlisted, and where did you enlist?
HB: I enlisted in Bendigo in 1942.
JB: And from the home town? Your home town?
HB: Er, from the hill where I lived. I came from the Pyramid Hill [?] of Bendigo to enlist, and then of course I had to go to Melbourne for induction and all those things.
JB: And you went, what school did you go to?
HB: I went to the Bendigo Technical College.
JB: And as a civilian, your job? You were a farmer.
HB: I was a wool grower, yes.
JB: What made you volunteer for Bomber Command? [pause] I suppose firstly, what made you volunteer in the war?
HB: Oh well, it wasn't a big decision to make, my father had been a serviceman in the First World War, as a light horseman. Er, stories of service life had been part of my growing up, I suppose, but I, when I became eighteen of age I automatically enlisted, er, I enlisted in aircrew because I was interested in flight [pause] and [pause], yes, I, I was looking forward to the time when I was able to enlist.
JB: Were you aware of the high casualty rates?
HB: Well, er, war stories were not new to me. I knew a little bit about the war, but also there was war all around us, and it was an inevitability that able-bodied people would be involved, and, no, I didn't give it a great amount of consideration, I must confess, no.
JB: What about your family? I mean how did they feel about it? Your mum.
HB: Oh well, I don't suppose they were happy to see me enlist, but as I said before, my father was an ex-serviceman, and I got plenty of encouragement from the family, yes.
JB: So, where did you, where did you train, once you'd enlisted?
HB: Ah well, very briefly, oh first I went to Summers, which was what they called initial training school, where we were given a lot of theory and [pause] grounding in aircrew things, but it was really assessing, I think, the young people, to see if they could cram a lot of subjects in a very short time, and had the ability to go on quickly. I can remember particularly at Summers there were some sheds were used for classrooms, and we didn't walk between those sheds, we had to, we had to, actually go at the double, because they were short of time, and we were very young and fit. But after spending the time at Summers initial training school, if we passed the course we were, we were [pause], we were assigned to different channels of aircrew training. We all, of course, would like to have been made pilot, young pilots, and I was very fortunate that I was categorised for pilot training, and I was sent then to initial, er, to elementary flying training school at the Nowra in Victoria, where we were trained to fly Tiger Moths. And it was a wonderful period of my life, I had an interesting and capable instructor, and we enjoyed very much the period of flying, from the time of first solo until we were practising aerobatics and doing solo cross countries, it was a very exhilarating period of a young person's life. At the end of that course we were again categorised for singles or multis, which meant going on to be a fighter pilot if you went on singles, or bomber pilot if you were multis. And again I obtained what I wanted to have, and that was fighter pilot training on singles, and I was sent then to Uranquinty in New South Wales, flying on Wirraways, and sadly during that course, and when I felt quite capable and comfortable with the course, nine of us were taken off the course and told that we were to be re-mustered to bomber crews, and of course this was a most disturbing and, er, disappointing thing to happen. However, we, we were sent to Bradfield Park in New South Wales, and given a choice of what we would like to do in bomber crews. And I chose to be a gunner. And I was sent to Sale and I did a gunneries course, and very quickly I was sent to England, er, via America, to join in Bomber Command, which was the ultimate, I imagine, at the time. We had a very uncomfortable trip to England, it was wartime of course, and we travelled from Brisbane to San Francisco in the United States of America, in a liberty ship, and they were terrible things. They were the first all-welded boats, made during the war for transport purposes. They weren't very large and they were certainly very uncomfortable. But after about three weeks we, one morning, saw, coming through the mist, er, one of the American airships they had patrolling their coastline, and coming through the fog we came into the, into the port of San Francisco. And after a bit of leave in San Francisco, we were put on [unclear], on a very comfortable Pullman train, and we travelled right across the States by train to New York. It took about a week, and that was a very interesting journey. And we had a short period of leave in New York whilst-
JB: S- sorry Harvey, there's a lovely story about the Afro-American on the train. I'd really like, 'cause it says a lot about the Aussies, so-
HB: Ah, well, I've just got to break into that somehow. Yes, well, on this train we, they were very comfortable old train carriages, they were Pullman carriages, they were sleepers, and, er, we had an African-American person in each carriage, looking after us. And some of us spent most of the day on a observation carriage type thing, talking to this, er, old gentleman who was our, looking after us. He was very, very interesting, he'd been on the route for a long time, and he could give us a lot of interesting information on the country we were passing through, and the cities we came in to. And, er, quite an old gentleman. At the end of our journey to New York we took up a collection, and gave to him in appreciation for his looking after us so well on the trip. And the old chap became quite emotional, and he said he'd been hauling American troops for years on the trains, but he'd never ever received the respect and attention that he had with the Australians, and he also said that the money we had given him would be sufficient to buy his son, who was about to go to a university, a new overcoat, and that was a very pleasant thing [unclear] to our trip across the States. In New York we had some leave whilst we awaited the arrival of the Queen Elizabeth, who was, of course she was doing a regular trip between America and Britain on, [pause], on eh as a troop ship. Eventually she arrived, and we were five hundred Australian aircrew, all Australians, and we didn't make much difference to the, the seventeen thousand, I think it was, on board the Queen Elizabeth. But it was a, after our experience on the liberty ship, it was a very luxurious journey on board the Queen Elizabeth. We aircrew fellas, I think we had to share, er, we had cabins, but only cut down slightly on normal accommodation. The Queen Elizabeth wasn't escorted, she was too fast to travel in convoy, she travelled on a zigzag course relying on speed and all the electronics and [pause] she had on board. We, we eventually pulled into the, the, into Glasgow, the port of Glasgow. The Queen Elizabeth never came right into port, she remained out in the straits and we came off by lighters, this was so she could be quickly manoeuvred about in emergencies from bombing. In Glasgow we [pause]
JB: -at all. As good as gold.
HB: We boarded a troop train, in Glasgow, and came down, all the way down through, er, through Britain, to Brighton, which was our destination, of course, and all the aircrew arrivals were billeted in one of two major hotels in Brighton. Er, quite a luxurious arrival actually. And we were very pleased to get to Brighton, we were all very weary after all our travel. But at Brighton which was a pool, and a place where all aircrew were sorted into groups suitable for training, we were given disembarkation leave. There was a great feeling of haste there about everything. This disembarkation leave was very, very brief, and we were very quickly put on course for operational training courses, and we could see the reason this was about, there were many losses, heavy losses in Bomber Command, and the war was at a very positive time, but after a very brief leave in London we were sent on operational, to operational training units, where we crewed up, and we were given a welcome by the commanding officer at our training station, and told that we would be given two or three days to crew-0p by choice [coughs]. The British had learned, I think from experience, that you don't allocate bomber crews, you allow them to crew-up as crews themselves. A bomber crew had to be compatible [coughs], and we crewed up.
JB: How did that actually, did you just walk round and meet each other, or-?
HB: Yeah, we did. We just talked around the bar, and chatted in the mess, and in real life, I think, you usually find that like-minded people do group together, and sort themselves out a little. But in our case, the first man I saw there, met, was my old friend Kevin Key, who I'd known at initial training school at Summers in Melbourne, I knew no one else, nor did he know anyone else, but we were delighted to meet, and we said well, whatever happened, we'll be on the same crew, and from there we just gradually melted into er, different groups, and, er, Jim Gillies was the next one that we met. We decided that we'd be a fairly good combination, and we ended up with our six members, crew members, all Australians. We crewed up only with six men for a seven-man crew because in England the flight engineers were all English, and they allocated. But as a crew we then began our training at -. And it was a very busy time, of course, we got into the elementary flying programmes, and finally we moved onto flying in Wellington bombers, training. The Wellington had been a front-line bomber at the beginning of the war, it was a twin-engined, quite serviceable, old aircraft. And it was still being used a little bit in coastal patrols and such things, but its major usage was in training bomber crews, and it was a twin-engine aircraft. And so we did quite a lot of flying in Wellingtons, and then we migrated to Halifaxes, which was a four-engined bomber, of course, and quite a big step for the pilots, and the crews. And after a course in Halifaxes we moved onto Lancasters, and the Lancaster, of course, was the outstanding heavy bomber of World War Two. It was said that, yes, it was the supreme heavy bomber. Er, it carried a crew of seven. It carried a much heavier bomb load than the American Flying Fortress. We had a crew only of seven, where the American Flying Fortress had a crew of eleven. It was an exciting aircraft. They could take enormous punishment in service. But anyway, we did a course on Lancasters, cross countries, and under all sorts of conditions and situations, until the time came that we were proficient, and we were allocated to a squadron. And we were fortunate we felt, we were sent to 153 Squadron at Scampton, which was a very famous squadron, not far out of Lincoln city. It had become famous in the fact that the Dambuster crews trained there, in fact they took off for the bomb raids from Scampton. It was the squadron where Guy Gibson did his flying. And it was a very interesting place, and a very comfortable billet, and we were very happy to go there. And we flew our first operation from there, and in fact we flew four operations from Scampton. And then we were told that we were being posted to 150 Squadron at Hemswell. Hemswell was a new squadron at a new wartime 'drome. A little bit further away from Lincoln. And we were a bit sad, of course, leaving the comforting billets that we'd become used to at Scampton, but we soon got used to 150 Squadron at Hemswell. The amenities weren't quite as comfortable, perhaps, but we joined in Hemswell a mixed body of young flyers. We were the only full Australian crew flying there. There were odd Australians in mixed crews, but there were Canadians, there were some Canadians, incidentally the Canadians and the Australians seemed to have a great rapport, they seemed to fall into step very easily. Our closest companions were Canadians, but there were British, and there were Canadians, and there were some, a few, New Zealanders. There were two squadrons at Hemswell, 170 Squadron and 150 Squadron. We [pause] we settled, we settled into flight from Hemswell, it was some distance back into Lincoln, of course, but any time we had free we drove back in to Lincoln for our relaxation. Hemswell was surrounded by farming land, very attractive farming land, but there was no township, or anything of that nature, there. From then on it was a matter of routine, the bombing missions all over Germany. Intermittently we were given leave, they were, the Air Force was, very generous, I believe, in its allocation of leave to aircrews, and we, we used to get well away from London and relax in those periods when we were given leave. We would go north to Scotland, or into the Lakes District in England, and generally enjoy and relax very well. But it was always sad, we found, coming back to the squadron after having been on leave because inevitably we found vacant places. And you even felt a little bit guilty [pause] that you'd been away while these boys had gone.
JB: Do you want me to stop it a minute?
HB: [Coughs]
JB: Sorry mate.
HB: That's alright.
JB: Um, yeah, let’s stop it and think. [Rustles and beep]. And away you go.
HB: When we arrived at the squadron, our crew was assigned to a brand new Lancaster. Her code number was PB 853 PB, and she was affectionately known as P-Peter. The ground crew painted a huge bee dressed in Australian battledress, and sitting astride a bomb, on the side of the fuselage. During the period we flew her, all of her engines were replaced, and many of her panels were patched due to flak damage. When flying on operations we carried escape aids to help if we had to bail out in neutral countryside with a chance of escape to the neutral country. It was a flat box, plastic box [pause] we wore inside our battledress, and contained a beautiful silk map of Europe, some German money, some phrases cards, in several languages, and some vitamin pills, for-, and also some pills for purifying water, a razor, and many little things likely to be useful. Each member of a bomber crew carried a secret compass. There were several kinds of these, my little compass was in the base of a, of a collar stud. When I became a prisoner of the Germans I was interrogated twice, once by the Luftwaffe, and once by civilians. They removed everything I had, but did not find my little compass, and I still have it. The Royal Air Force flew mostly at night. Our crew flew twenty nine operations before we were shot down. Twenty four of them were at night, and five were in daylight. Because we usually flew at night, high altitude we had [sneezes], we had to wear oxygen masks, and electric inner suits for the gunners, because in those days we did not have pressurised aircraft, and it was very cold. Flying could be up to ten hours, depending on the location of the target. We were briefed for our twenty ninth operation one morning to bomb synthetic oil refineries at Harpennig, near Dortmund in the Ruhr. The Ruhr is the industrial centre of Germany where most of the heavy steel industry is, is located, including the mighty Krupps armament works. It was known to bomber crews as Happy Valley, we had been to the Ruhr cities a number of times, and had always found them heavily defended. At four o’clock in the afternoon we were over the city, and the oil refineries underneath us. After seeing the target map on the brief, briefing room wall that morning, I believed that without being complacent we were quietly optimistic that we would complete our tour of thirty operations. There was only one more to go after this. We had survived twenty eight arduous operations, all of them on German targets. We were the senior crew on the squadron, with a reputation for reliability and efficiency. At four o’clock in the afternoon we were indeed over the city, flying at eighteen thousand feet. We were in the midst of a heavy anti-aircraft barrage, with flak bursting from fifteen thousand to twenty thousand feet. The target was clearly visible, not only from the target indicators, but from the smoke of exploding bombs. As we turned into our bombing run there was a target, there was a target, when we [long pause]. You right?
JB: Yeah!
HB: As we turned into our bombing run there was a great explosion, and the aircraft began to shudder violently. Flak bursting under us had put two of our engines on fire. We were out of control and going into a steep descent. When the order was given to abandon the aircraft the last words we heard from Phil were, 'I can't hold her any more'. Jim Gillies and I believe that Jim Griffin was killed by the flak. His body was found, thrown clear of the aircraft, in the woods some kilometres from the target area. There was no panic, and six of the seven of us were able to bail out. I was the last to leave. My turret hydraulics were supplied from one of the engines that was on fire, and it had stopped with the guns on the beam. With no hydraulics I had to manually wind the turret to the fore and aft position to get out of it. This operation took several seconds. As I disconnected my oxygen and intercom lead the aircraft began to lurch violently from side to side. I was having great difficulty leaving the turret, and suddenly found myself on the floor of the fuselage below. I was able to clip my parachute onto my harness before I realised that my left femur was broken up near the hip. I crawled upwards to the door and rolled out, counted to three, and pulled my rip cord. There was a sudden jolt and I found myself suspended at about sixteen thousand feet. My first reaction was of relief. The enormity of the situation took a moment to sink in. [Pause.] There were aircraft passing high above me with flak bursting under them, and I began to feel an incredible sense of isolation and loneliness as I watched those Lancasters disappearing into the distance, going home to England. As I descended in the parachute I had time to think of many things. I thought about the dreaded telegram my father would receive from the Air Ministry, advising them that we were missing. I remember the, I remember the RAF issue Smith and Wesson revolver I had underneath my Mae West. I realised it would be a liability in the situation that I was about to face, and I pulled it out and let it drop. The last few hundred feet arrived too soon. I could see I was drifting over a building [pause] and as I landed, further down under the cabbages I could see people coming. They were armed with shovels and garden tools. They hesitated for a moment, and then rushed over to me, and my flying boots were pulled off. Women were squabbling over my parachute silk, and others were trying to remove my harness in order to have my flying clothes. I could not move because they were standing on my hands, stretched above my head. I couldn’t see clearly because mud was running into my eyes. I was not having a very good time when an old soldier in uniform with a sub-machine gun moved through the crowd. He cocked his weapon, and they fell back. He then stood over me, undoubtedly saving my life. Another armed old soldier then arrived, pushing a large wheelbarrow with two wheels on the front. These soldiers were Volkssturm, or Home Guard. The first old fellow loaded me onto this conveyance, and then with the first of them walking in front with his weapon, clearing a pathway, the other pushed me over the cobblestones, and I was cursed and spat upon by the justifiably irate citizens as we approached a tin building which appeared to be a military barracks. I was deposited upon a concrete floor within this building, and as they left me I thanked these two old soldiers. They had saved my life, though I never saw them again.
JB: No. Just my wife [pause]. No, you're all right. Keep, still going. [Pause.]
HB: Lying on my back, with nothing under my head, I tried not to make the slightest movement because the tortured thigh was swelling rapidly, no doubt due to having been twisted about so much during the rough handling I had received in the vegetable field. Sometime during the evening I was interrogated by some military people, with a Luftwaffe officer in charge. He had an RAAF, rather, an RAF aircrew identification card with him, and he showed me those many identification cards, from obviously RAF personnel who had been shot down in the region [pause]. He, he went through these with me, and I showed no recognition, even though I saw Jim Gillies, our bomb aimer, I saw his card come up. Throughout the night [pause] a light in the ceiling above my head was something to focus on, and in a sense it gave me some company. I was very cold, and my leg was swollen, swelling enormously, and in the morning my trouser leg was stretched to the limit. At this time a soldier came in to me with a plate of porridge, before depositing it on the concrete beside me he put it to his mouth drinking the liquid from it [pause]. Later in the morning a rough splint was strapped over my leg. I was put on a stretcher and moved to a small prison cell. I had not had time to become fully acquainted with this [telephone rings] -
JB: - you go.
HB: And later in the morning a rough splint was strapped over my leg, and I was put on a stretcher and moved into a small prison cell. I had not had time to become fully acquainted with this superior accommodation, when the door opened, and guards escorting Jim Gillies arrived. We chose not to recognise each other, but I am sure that our body language would have indicated the relief we felt in knowing that the other was alive. Jim was wearing a paper bandage around his head, testimony of his inhospitable reception, er, on landing. The following morning Jim and I were taken to an open truck. There was no seating for a group of female soldiers and the two armed guards escorting us. We travelled through Dortmund into the countryside where we stopped to pick up the body of an RAF fellow from a field. His parachute had not opened, and he was probably blown out of an exploding aircraft. This incident caused Jim and me to be a little uneasy. The truck had stopped at the side of the road, and two, the two guards guarding us jumped out, ordering Jim to follow. He was then given a stretcher to carry, and the three of them marched out across a field, and from my position on the floor I soon lost sight of them. However, I heard no gunshot, and was relieved soon, later, to see them return with Jim and one of the guards carrying the stretcher. And as we continued our journey, Jim, who was very tired, sat on the body after saying, 'I'm sure he wouldn't mind'. We were then able to confer freely together. The road was in very poor condition, and I was relieved when we arrived at a Luftwaffe fighter base where Jim Gillies was placed in cells with a number of Canadian and American POWs. The following day Jim Gillies and the other airmen was moved by train and truck through Germany ending up at Fallingbostel POW camp. After a night in a cell alone, I was taken some distance to a place called Kirchlinde, a large town. The hospital was on three levels, and I was placed on the top storey. Two American soldiers, and a blind English soldier, and I, were the only English-speaking prisoners. The few orderlies were French, and the main function of the establishment seemed to be the patching up of injured Russian prisoners of war from the work parties that we could see filling in bomb craters and clearing roads. After so much time without any medical attention whatsoever I was given some surgery at this place. Since breaking my femur the muscles of my leg had contracted and the broken ends of the bones were overlapping, and my leg was shortened and not very straight. The doctor put on [unclear] my shin bone and attempted some traction, but after so much delay it was futile. It turned out that we were being held in what was to become known as the Ruhr Pocket, where the German, where a German army refused to surrender. There were, we were under constant attack from the RAF bombing throughout the region at night, and a tactical air force in daytime. The Germans had established an anti-aircraft battery quite close to the factory, and whenever the air raid siren began to moan, we would brace ourselves for the sound of the guns as they sent of a barrage of flak. Inevitably, eventually it happened, and the second floor, storey, was also replaced, er reduced to rubble and by the cannon fire. Again I was moved downstairs into what still remained of the building. By this time I was the only prisoner still confined to a bed. I remember an SS soldier coming into the ward, where I remained alone. He had a Luger in his hand, and I was given the strong impression that he would have liked to use it. I was after all a considerable inconvenience. I was relieved when he left after making his inspection. By this time most of the Russians had disappeared, street fighting had been going on around for some time, and eventually the first floor [pause] became shattered. And after a period the whole of the building was untenable, and we were moved down to the cellars underneath. I lost sign, I lost sight of the English soldier, the blind English soldier, and I think he could not have survived. I was lying on a concrete floor with a very, with a very young soldier, German soldier on my left. He was from a signal unit and had been wounded in the street fighting. He spoke very good English and we began to talk. He told me about his work in the army and said that he'd often heard English pilots on his listening set, talking and swearing at each other. He quoted 'tally-ho' [pause]. He, he spoke very good English, and his name was Helmut Liever, and he'd grown up in the confines of Hitler Youth Movement, where every aspect of life was regimented. He told me that the German people were very afraid of Royal Air Force bombing, especially at night. He said that he had received, he told me that he had relatives who had survived the classic raid on Dresden. He went on to describe in detail the sequences of the operation. I did not tell him I had seen it all from twenty thousand feet. In contract, in contrast to Helmut Liever on my right there was a German soldier who had a dagger that, that he pulled out several times in a threatening manner. Fortunately he was out of reach. Eventually the two Americans and I experienced a dramatic change in our situation. Four heavily-armed American soldiers burst into our cellar at about midday. They expected to find more than the three of us. It was a wonderful reunion for the two Americans. When they found out that I was an Australian airman they could not have been more supportive. They told us, however, that we couldn't be taken away for some time, as there was street fighting going on outside. Before leaving they left some cigarettes and a long black bottle of very old wine, and asked if, they came to ask if there was anything they could do for me. And I said, 'well, that old German with the dagger is annoying me, get that dagger', which they did, and I still have it with me. Early in the evening a jeep arrived for us. I was strapped across the bonnet on a stretcher. A padre sat beside me, steadying me on the, and holding a rifle with a Red Cross flag tied to the barrel. It was a rough ride, dodging bomb craters and wrecked vehicles and fallen cables. Before leaving the cellar, I quietly passed some cigarettes to Helmut Liever. We travelled through what seemed a considerable distance until we left the city and arrived at an American army field hospital. It was surrounded by wheat fields, and it was a mobile unit under canvas. I was something of a curiosity with the nursing staff. Most of them were female and knew very little about Australia. They could not be enough, do enough for me, and were very kind. I was told my femur should be re-broken and reset in England. They enveloped my knee in plaster for the trip to come home. Er, could you switch it off for a minute?
LB: Yeah.
HB: I just [unclear] it's getting pretty dreary now, what would like-
LB: I think just talk about the crew, what about when-
HB: Ah, yes.
LB: Um, hang on, hang on, hang on. Er pause, we can do that one [noise]. Um, Harvey, what can you tell me about your crew, or your team?
HB: Er, I would do that with great pleasure, er, in recollections of our team, and our [coughs], Philip Henry Morris was an accomplished pilot, trained in Canada, and we both looked forward to a life in farming after the war. In September 1944 we decided to buy a car. We found one that suited us, a Riley Nine, in Gainsborough. It was a very, in very good condition except that the tyres were very bad, and were difficult to attain. But I drove it back to the station, and whenever we had a day off, I proceeded to teach Phil, Phil to drive. It was an amazing fact that this man who had flown three types of heavy bombers, and many light aircraft, had never learned to drive a motor car. [Pause.] After a great deal of changing and slipping and gear grinding, we were able to go back to Gainsborough and secure his licence. When we arrived back to 150 Squadron at Hemswell, our ground crew took over the maintenance of the car. For special occasions we would let them have it out for a night. In a miraculous manner the worn and worn-out tyres that we couldn't replace, were replaced with new ones, and whenever we drove out of the station, there would be petrol in the tank. John Clement Jay Davis, the flight engineer, was English, of course, er, was assigned to us after OTU, and flew with us in training, and [pause] Jo Davis was a young Londoner, who grew up in Surbiton. He bonded with us very quickly. He was capable, courageous, and always cheerful. He was delighted to be part of an Australian crew, and often said that he would be emigrating to Australia after the war. One of his sayings after a pint or two in the sergeants’ mess was, 'we are not here today, and gone tomorrow, we are here today, and gone tonight'. Kevin Anthony Key came from Melbourne. He and I were old friends from Initial Training School at Summers, and were delighted to come together on Operational Training Unit at Lichfield. He was a [pause] he was an inveterate gambler, and a very successful gambler. I remember one, him one evening pushing a large Royal Enfield motor bike back to the billet, that he'd just won from Canadians, playing cards [pause]. He was an excellent navigator, and he kept us on track during all those black nights over Germany. Robert Lockyear Masters was a schoolteacher prior to enlistment as a wireless operator in Australia. He grew up in Tumut in New South Wales, and shared our interests in the appearance and style of a little old pubs and churches we found whenever we were on leave, in England. A stained glass window in the Tumut Anglican church commemorates his life and service to his country. James Noel Griffin, our rear gunner, was a Queenslander from Brisbane. Jim was more of a solo person when going on leave. A very handsome young airman, he seemed to have the ability to attract the girl, a girl at every [unclear] awaiting leave. James Henry Gillies, our bomb aimer, was a large amiable young man who had played rugby union after leaving school. He had trained as a bomb aimer in Canada. As the two surviving members of our crew of seven, Jim and I shared some extreme experiences, and after all these years we remained very close bond. He was, he was a retired dentist, living in Sydney with his wife Bettina, not far from numerous adoring grandchildren. Our ground crew were very important to us. The ground crew worked around the clock, often under the stress of extreme cold, to keep the aircraft flying. They were the engine mechanics, who served our engines. They were the electricians, who looked after our electrical systems. They were the armourers who loaded our bomb bays, and checked our turrets and machine guns. They were the WAAF drivers, who met us when we landed, day or night to take us to headquarters. All these people were a part of our team. They were always cheerful, and they would do anything for us. The aircrew, I will repeat their names: Phil Morris, pilot, from Sydney, New South Wales; Kevin Key, navigator, from Melbourne, Victoria; Joe Davis, flight engineer, from London, United Kingdom; Bob Masters, wireless operator, from Tumut, New South Wales; Jim Gillies, bomb aimer, from Sydney, New South Wales; Harvey Bawden, mid upper gunner, from Pyramid Hill, Victoria; Jim Griffin, rear gunner, from Brisbane, Queensland. Phil Morris, Kevin Key, John Davis, Bob Masters and Jim Griffin are buried in a war cemetery in the Reichswald Forest, near Kleve in Germany. A stone monument at the entrance to this cemetery carries this inscription 'The land on which this cemetery stands is the gift of the German people, who are [pause] for the perpetual resting place for the sailors, soldiers and airmen who are honoured here'. Harvey Bawden, Bendigo.
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ABawdenHH160810
Title
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Interview with Harvey Hayward Bawden
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:05:55 audio recording
Creator
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John Bowden
Date
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2016-08-10
Description
An account of the resource
Harvey Bawden, from Bendigo, Victoria, Australia, volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force in 1942 at the age of eighteen. After initial training school and assessment as an air gunner, he was shipped to England via the United States. After crewing up and training on heavy bombers, his first posting was to 153 Squadron at RAF Scampton, from where he flew four operations. He was then posted to 150 Squadron at RAF Hemswell. On their 29th operation, they were hit by flak. Bawden’s leg was broken before he bailed out, and he describes the experience of bailing out, interrogation and treatment in a military hospital in some detail. Only he and one other crew member survived. He was rescued by advancing American forces clearing the Ruhr Pocket. Bawden pays tribute to his fellow crew members, buried in the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery, and the ground crew who supported them.
Contributor
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Peter Adams
Mal Prissick
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Australia
Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Victoria--Bendigo
California--San Francisco
United States
Victoria
California
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1945
150 Squadron
153 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bale out
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
final resting place
ground crew
ground personnel
Halifax
Lancaster
mechanics engine
memorial
nose art
prisoner of war
RAF Hemswell
RAF Scampton
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/288/3443/PKroeseFW1702.2.jpg
d1312998e636d40c61cbd74768886b69
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/288/3443/AKroeseFW170829.1.mp3
f87c89b9ef839dbc0503dcb2f14574d3
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Kroese, Frederik
Frederik Kroese
Frederik W Kroese
F W Kroese
F Kroese
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. An oral history interview with Frederik Willem Kroese (b. 1924), a memoir, a cartoon and an empty packet of V cigarettes. Frederik Kroese was a member of the Dutch resistance. He acted as a courier and helped airmen evade capture.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Frederik Kroese and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-08-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Kroese, FW
Language
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English
Spatial Coverage
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Netherlands
Great Britain
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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RVDP: I am Ron Van de Put, IBCC volunteer, about to interview Mr Frederik Willem Kroese who took part in the resistance as a member of team oft hulp aan during the Second World War. Mr Kroese was, among other things, involved in making and disseminating fake IDs, secret messages, transporting arms and ammunition and helping aircrew escape from the Germans and cross the border to safety. Mr Kroese, thank you very much for agreeing on doing this interview. As a start could you tell us a little bit more about yourself?
FK: Yes. Thank you, Mr Van de Put. I was born in 1924 and when I was sixteen the war started in my country. I awake one morning in May 1940 when the bridge near my home was blown up and when the Germans came in. I was too young to do something at that moment but it was not so that from the first day the Germans were in the Netherlands everything was wrong. Every time it became a bit more worse. That there were things the Jews couldn’t do, as a people couldn’t do [railway man?] and so and so when the war went, got farther we more remarked that we had to do something and as a little group we couldn’t fight to Germans but what we could do was to make more — less safe the Germans in being in our country. And so, giving them little stitches. When I was in the third, third year of the war I got a message on Friday to report on Tuesday at the office with a small bag with clothes and toothpaste to go to work in Germany and that was, for me, the moment that I thought — no. That will not be. As you don’t know directly a place to dive, to hide yourself I first went to a friend who was sure as he was following a course for the school teachers he was safe not to be called up by the Germans. I got there but it was a house near the school, my secondary school, where two hundred Germans lived and I was at four metre from them to hide me. The things I did there was pulling potatoes and making coffee and other things. Quite boring. So, I was glad that a man who brought us two hundred copies of a secret volkpaper said to me, ‘Would you come to my place there in the resistance and you could do good work. ’ I said, ‘Oh yes. Please.’ And I went there. Afterwards, I realised me, that the man who asked me that was the son of the particular, particular secretary of Her Majesty Queen Wilhelmina but in war we were just friends. We became friends to fight to enlarge the [pause] to make it the Germans more danger. More difficult to do what they intended to do. So, I started in 1943 at the place [Oldpaten?] and what we call landgoed [?] near my native town.
RVDP: So, an estate.
KR: An estate.
RVDP: Yes.
KR: And seventeen hectares and I could do interesting work and work which made the work of the Germans difficult. First, I became head of the correspondence and connecting group. There were thirteen what we call couriersters. Girls between seventeen and twenty-five who were selected to bring reports from all very little towns to me so that I could bring them farther so that the BBC in London got acquainted with it. After, in the Netherlands, there were the interior forces of the Netherlands and they were divided into sections. The armed section and a non-armed section but there was not a sharp section. When needed I had to go take rifle and to go to join a group. But first was the most of the work was reporting things that happened in the surroundings. And for instance, we had a house very close to the railway at Amersfoort so that we could report what goods were transported by the Germans on the, of the railway. For instance, tanks and other for the Atlantic Wall. That gave us the intention to say if we blow up the railway it would restore the interest of the Germans to bring tanks by the railway to the Atlantic Wall. So, we did. But the Germans were very angry and said, ‘If, in the future, there’s a new attack the house that’s nearest to the point where the railway is blown up — the house will be burned and the inhabitants will be shot down. ’ That was a difficult point for us for it means that the inhabitants of the Netherlands, our friends, nearly became our enemies as we were suspected if a Dutch man who was very close to the Allies saw one of the resistance men he thought, ‘not my home.’ So it was very difficult to go on with the job as the people were anti-resistance man. Became anti-resistance man to save their home and their children. We thought about this two days but then came to the conclusion we must go on otherwise the resistance movements ends and that was not the intention. Certainly not. So, we changed the place where we made the attack. Very good hidden by bush and so and but it was near a house with two parents, forty five, forty three and four children — four to seventeen. And one and a half kilometre farther there was a small house with two people — eighty-five and eighty-three. It doesn’t mean that it is not verschrikkelijk.
RVDP: That’s ‘terrible.’
KR: Terrible. But war is terrible and the choice is to choose for the less terrible thing. So, we thought two people older than eighty can better die than six people in the glow of their life. We then found that the Germans got a bit of [unclear].
RVDP: They were more skilled in something.
KR: They were skilled in repairing the railways.
RVDP: They got better at it.
KR: Yeah. So it first took two days. Then one day. Then at least only one morning. So we made a decision that it was no more worse to blow up the railway as the damage we caused was not interesting enough for what we intended. That was one of the things I could do. But as I said I, we got news to the BBC and when we asked for dropping of weapons we had contact with the BBC and at thirteen hours Dutch time we got messages from Radio Orange and at certain time I heard, ‘The apple juice will not be eaten very hot.’ And we thought, ‘Ah that’s for us.’ Tomorrow at about 11 they will drop a container with weapons in the surroundings of [unclear]. In our surroundings. Unfortunately, it happened that a keen German general also knew a great deal of the [pause] of the [pause] —
[Recording paused]
KR: I was looking for the word. The code. For the German General Guderian knew quite a lot of this code. Therefore, I myself think that about sixty percent of the droppings came in German hands and not reach us. That was very bad but we couldn’t help that. In such a container was found with the weapons was a little book in six languages and at the end several voorbeeld.
RVDP: ‘Examples’.
KR: Examples how to deal with them.
RVDP: So, a manual.
KR: A manual.
RVDP: With which you, the people who used it, the contents — knew what to do with it.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: For demolition. Arms. Ammunition. A manual.
KR: Yes. And that also when we had such a dropping [unclear] of one of our other points and that was Baron von Hagren from [unclear] on an estate of twenty-two hectares where they had to bring the weapons. I did that in bags at the end, both ends of the bicycle and the question was do you go by the main road that’s thirteen kilometres or do you take second or third plan roads so you could perhaps avoid meeting Germans but that was twenty-five kilometres? Well, in short, I decided. I didn’t know if I was lazy but I decided to take the shortest way. And all again good. I came to Mr Van Hagren and I gave him the weapons. I had a message for him but he didn’t want it — to receive from me. He said, ‘That fall on the floor.’ I said, ‘But if the Germans here in the surroundings, he only sees that something is dropping then I, if I put it in your hands — ’ ‘Drop it.’ I think it was that if he was caught by Germans he could swear on the grave of his mother I didn’t receive any paper form or anything from this man. Okay. From my own [pause] wandering I found that the second part, going back was more difficult as due to the hunger winter we had lots of people came from north to the west. That means from Svala to Amersfoort on their bicycle with potatoes, with food. And so, and I had an empty case and people said, ‘How this man has not received anything from the farmers? ’ So, I said to Mr Van Hagren, ‘Next time I need six to eight stones to put in my luggage to be able to drive my bicycle as hard as the people with food.’
RVDP: So, people could tell it was loaded.
KR: Yeah.
RVDP: You had bags full and you wouldn’t stand out.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Because that’s what you’re telling us.
KR: You musn’t —
RVDP: It was important not to stand out. To keep secrecy.
KR: Yes. That is what I say. If they remark you it’s not good in war. Never put your hat in the light. One of the main things for the resistance movement was to be as close as giving less names as possible and less addresses as possible. Important is that. So few people as possible should know anything from you and from your comrades. All must be done in secrecy. I preserved it when I came by bicycle out of the woods and the German came and asked me my bicycle. I had a band on my arm that I was part of the [unclear] of the town but that wasn’t important for him. I had papers in German and Dutch that I needed my bicycle. That too wasn’t important for him. So, I must walk. And in that case the resistance movement is in alarm for our courier which is not back in time and will he stand not to give addresses or names so that other people will be in danger. It was spare time. That means not to be allowed later than 8 o’clock in the evening on the streets and I came back at 9 o’clock in the evening but everyone was happy nothing happened and there was no name has fallen. Okay. That’s one of the securities that there was. Then another thing was, what we did, I spoke about the girls from seventeen to twenty-five who came from certain directions to give me the information. We could not allow that many times a day she would say, ‘Oh I have — my tyre is no good. I am later.’ So, we had made a decision that the bicycles of our girls must be perfect. So, we went to a salesman in the village. Asked him which people has bought, in the last months, a new bicycle. Then shifted it if it was a good Dutchman or a bad Dutchman and after that we went there. I think that was the man that asked me to join the resistance was in uniform, a German uniform. I myself had a police uniform and we went to a place where we knew they must have a new bicycle and I said to the man why we came, let me say it was a farmer. ‘Listen. This man is a German who needed a bicycle. If you tell me where your good bicycle is I will try to avoid that he goes there.’ So, tell me and we shall see if it happens, if it works.’ ‘Okay.’ As Henk was not a German but a Dutchman he, so he heard what I said perfectly what place the bicycle was but we played a game and so three or four minutes he was looking at a hay farm but I, in the farmhouse, in the stables and then suddenly after about four minutes he said, ‘Well’ and he went directly to the place he had heard that a good bicycle stand. We needed only the tyres so we threw the rest of the bicycle in the [unclear] of the estate. The water of the estate. Okay. So, worked our connections service. Another point. There came at the end of the war the Spitfires fired at German motor moves on the roads and they wanted to make a place to hide between the trees. And the German commander came and told us that he, or as he told the community, we were not a partner, that he needed three people to dig the roads. When he came back, he said, sorry. He heard there were no volunteers so then he [throwed?] and said, ‘Be sure that tomorrow you have three persons. Otherwise the secret police, our secret police, the Gestapo [ Gubz?] from Almelo and they will do their work.’ And we will know that that was very very awful work so we must prevent that the Gestapo should come. So, we gave the Germans three men to dig the holes. We could do that as not every German was em fanatic Hitler follower. Not SS and SA but he was a German who was called up for service and perhaps hated Hitler but he had to do his job and so he made us not too dangerous. We had the, previously, that our estate was apple trees and once in a fortnight we gave the Germans a bottle of apples. And so he was confident and we were confident. Therefore, I myself admired the work of the communist who had to do to hide people in a house in a row while we worked with estates where you much more easily could hide some people. Some events that I especially remember were [pause] at the end of the war pilots were very young. Eighteen. Nineteen years. Didn’t know too much. You know again there were too Britons which was in my home and I played chess with them also and gave them food. And I came above to take the plate back from the food and I saw that all the [unclear] soup was in the —
RVDP: So, he hadn’t eaten everything.
KR: He hadn’t even. He didn’t like it. And I said, ‘are you aware we are in the hunger of winter?’ ‘Tell her I don’t like it but don’t throw it away.’ Okay. Another was there were two Americans and a German car stopped before the house and as I say, ‘away. Away,’ and one of the Americans went to the window and pushed the curtain aside and I said, ‘are you mad?’ ‘I want to see how the enemy looks,’ he said. He didn’t realise the risk he gave to the people who hided him and tried to save his life so that he couldn’t became slachtoffer.
RVDP: A ‘victim’.
KR: A victim of the Germans. And so, it was different questions. The Australian, Eric Blakemore wrote to me many things for the happy memories of chess. And another from London wrote to me when I asked when they should go back the last lines to write a short sentence to me and he said, ‘know yourself to be true though canst be false to any man.’ That has astonished me. I thought, have I been untrue? Have I made a lie? What happens? But it should be something from Shakespeare or so and I don’t know exactly what he meant with it but he wanted that was his meaning. How he behaved himself. Okay. We had. I gave, as I say, the pilots and their helpers food so they must have a food card. Well another of our groups from the [pause] from the —
RVDP: Shall we pause for a moment?
KR: Yeah.
[Recording paused]
RVDP: Okay. Please continue.
KR: The resistance that were different groups with different tasks for when aeroplane was shot down. Our first work was — are we earlier than the Germans to find the people. And it’s the place where they were shot down a safe one. We couldn’t find. And poor German inhabited. The first thing was to take away the parachute and to give them new clothes. Or clothes anyway. Beyond that they should, for living, have food tickets and rations and an identity card. Other groups gave us the possibility to have blank tickets so that I could give them an ID card with stamps and so, and as I was and tried to be, to keep for myself some of these things I still could show my — the girls and school people how I worked with them. So I could show them a blank identity card and could show them how it worked. When it was full, our rations too, we had a group who made an attack in the evening at night at one of the burgh houses where the official guards were and they took them away for us so that we could give them to the flight people who were shot down, to keep them alive. When we sent them back they were some on a bicycle. Some we must hide other way. And we had an example that three Canadians were hidden under a beetroot car and some farmers said, ‘All full loaded,’ but they didn’t realise that underneath three Canadians must be able to breathe and to stay alive. It was so we had, I told you I played chess with them. We talked. In the meantime, we had good contacts but when there were about forty we had a group and there was another group again who sent them over the river and to hope that they were in the south of France where it was free already so they could join again.
RVDP: So, you had to make sure, when an aircraft was shot down, that you, as the resistance, were the first to make sure that the crew, if they were still alive, were safe.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: You took them with you in other clothes of course and you would hide them.
KR: Yes. Yes.
RVDP: And the resistance had all different teams and groups to make sure you had all the supplies you needed like the tickets for the rations, the food, the blanks, the blank cards.
KR: Yes. That was all. That was all good. Organised.
RVDP: Okay. And so, you hid them.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Until let’s say, there were enough saved.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: To take them across the border.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Which was done by another team.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: How long did it take normally for you to get enough?
KR: I thought that about six, seven weeks we needed but that was due to circumstances. So when it was perhaps more dangerous that we didn’t wait until we had forty but it was about thirty or so. But I know that my group certainly made twice the group over the rivers to free the Dutch ground. I don’t know how many places there were in the Netherlands but other groups did about the same. So I’m not able to say if it were one hundred, one thousand or five thousand. But we did our work so far as possible and as good as possible to save too — as much aeroplane soldiers were shot down we could bring alive to the border again. That was one thing that we, yeah, to a bit of resettlement and we did it. Organisation was good. I mean of course, the people we helped were thank to us that we did it so that was a good connection. And I must say that afterwards that was not so nice. We did not keep connections. But I think that comes through the circumstances. When I was in the resistance I didn’t find that I did a special thing to remember. So I must say that recently the official groups who organised the remembrance of seventy years. Seventy-two years. And so, the war was over and the end of the war in our country — the 4th of May. I was expelled to tell, or my daughter was expelled to tell why her father was allowed to lay a wreath on the monument in Amsterdam. And that’s the reason that at this moment we must give up from the dark what we still know what happened but then we didn’t. I never thought it is important or am I important. No. It was for our queen and our country we did it and to help as much as possible and dis-arrange the Germans. That was the work we did and why we did it for. And that’s still the reason that there’s not so much in remembrance. I reckon that I tried to save some of the things I worked with but not many people should have done it. And I have difficulty that I, for, for years I broke my neck and people thought oh that’s his end and throw away a part of the papers for that’s not interesting if you don’t know what it means. It is not interesting. And therefore it’s merely the sake of remembrance that I can tell but I’m happy now. I am happy that I have done it. So, I didn’t realise we did in the war. Now I realise it that how grateful the allies should be that, that our work we did in the war. But we didn’t do it to become in the lights. We did it to help where we thought it was our duty. For we were an ally too. Yes.
RVDP: Yeah. I think it was, as you just said very important to help our liberators liberate us.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Of course that’s what you as part of the resistance did.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: And like you just mentioned the Remembrance Day, our Remembrance Day and telling your story and making presentations at schools. That’s all, that’s also, the Brits say because it’s important to remember.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Lest we forget. And as we Dutch say — opdat we niet vergeten.
KR: Yes. But we finally realised it should be so important after sixty, seventy years that is and there were people now going to the schools and telling about what they find out about what I’ve seen. That they were born in 1944. I must say that it’s not really — and that is what they heard or what they think of it could have been. And then it is often more interesting or — they have done so much hero things. I can’t see what it was to me. I tell my story. Not from a book. I tell what I remember. That means what I perceived. What we did. What we had. What happened. And not to romanticise it and say if it should have been so it was nice. That’s not my story.
RVDP: No. From you it’s the real story and all those other people who didn’t really live through the war, weren’t born then and make presentations now. It’s more like hearsay. From you it’s the actual story.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: And that’s what makes it so very, very special. This interview.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: So, thank you again for telling us your story and it’s, it’s wonderful. So, thank you very much indeed.
KR: Yes. I regret that since six years I have the illness of Parkinson. So my ability even with —
RVDP: Balance.
KR: My balance.
RVDP: Yeah.
KR: Is not so good so I am —
RVDP: And it’s because of the Parkinson disease.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: Yeah.
KR: I couldn’t do all I should like to do but what I can I will do and I am eager to do it. So if I could please you with anything further and with some help I can certainly do it.
RVDP: Thank you again Mr Kroese and you are a really very remarkable man. Like you already told you were born in 1924. You lived through the war. Did all these things you told us about. You have broken your neck four years ago. You are suffering from Parkinson disease but still you are here.
KR: Yes, and I think —
RVDP: You must be very very strong and you were able. And thank you for that.
KR: Yes.
RVDP: To, to —
KR: I think —
RVDP: To get still — yeah. Sorry.
KR: I think that I broke my neck as part of the Parkinson that I had. Small amounts of not knowing for it was when I went in after walking with the dog in my garden. And as I live now only fifty years I can’t, it can’t have been, couldn’t be I didn’t know why it was. So, I say it’s a part of the Parkinson that has been.
RVDP: Okay.
KR: But I say at the moment to people and veterans the years between ninety and a hundred are the nicest years of my life and I’m so happy I can do these things now.
RVDP: Yeah.
KR: I like to take part.
RVDP: I’m very happy to hear that and I wish you an awful lot more years of enjoyment.
KR: Thank you.
RVDP: So, thank you again for this interview.
KR: Thank you for yours.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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AKroeseFW170829
Title
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Interview with Frederik Kroese
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:59:37 audio recording
Creator
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Ron van de Put
Date
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2017-08-29
Description
An account of the resource
Frederik Willem Kroese describes his work for the Resistance in the Netherlands following the German occupation.
Contributor
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Julie Williams
Mal Prissick
Coverage
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Civilian
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
Netherlands
England--London
Netherlands--Amsterdam
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940-05
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Conforms To
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Pending OH summary
evading
memorial
Resistance