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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/603/8872/PMarchantT1501.1.jpg
7633a576a05d3d628f8ab4f5aab3c311
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/603/8872/AMarchantT150715.2.mp3
a088003f0ff9542450c26653477e41c9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Marchant, Thomas
Thomas Chas Marchant
T C Marchant
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Marchant
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Thomas Marchant (1604589 Royal Air Force). He flew operations in Transport Command and Bomber Command as a flight engineer with 101, 7, and 582 Squadrons.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
My name is Tom Marchant I was a Flight Engineer on Transport Command as well as Bomber Command. (slight pause) You may wonder why and how I got to be a Flight Engineer. I was only a young lad eighteen or nineteen , nineteen when I was actually operating, eighteen when I actually joined up. I couldn’t wait to get to fly. Now if I go back, I saw the Zeppelins fly over and I saw other aircraft flying around and I always wanted to be up there. I knew that as a working class lad from a working class family I could never afford to fly. I used to make my own aircraft, model aircraft, that flew from plans and with balsa wood and tissue paper and I used to fly my own aircraft and used to wish I could go up with them. I am just dying to fly, I wanted to fly. So actually when the war came along I was, em, I was er, what? fifteen or sixteen when it started and I couldn’t wait till my eighteenth birthday so I could volunteer for the RAF.
I hadn’t much education, just a basic education and I left school at fourteen without any qualifications, because I used to play about and play Jack the Lad and all the rest of it. So I thought I wouldn’t have a chance to get in the RAF but I thought I would have a go. I went, I was about seventeen and a half. I went and thought I could get away with saying I was eighteen. They started by asking me questions , how many degrees in a circle and things like that and of course I didn’t even know how many degrees there were in a circle. So I thought I had to do something about it. Suddenly I woke up, I went and got books from the library, I bought books, which you could do in these days for aircrew instruction and I got my head in these books and really started to educate myself and by the time I went, em, when I was just gone eighteen I volunteered again. I knew a lot more than when I first went and to my utter joy I was actually accepted to be aircrew. You can’t believe, to me it was almost like saying you can go to heaven and I just couldn’t believe it. Anyway em, I was eventually called up after about three to four months and em, (pause) I was sent to em, er, a camp under canvass, somewhere outside Warrington. From there we went to er, Blackpool. We went into digs at Blackpool which of course there were plenty going on in these days no em, holidaymakers, so that was the place and I went to Squires Gate airfield where I was trained, say training, er.
I ought to go back really because I did not have any formal education it was a problem getting a job. My parents weren’t very, they weren’t very helpful to me. I had a stepmother because my real mother died of consumption as it was called in these days, eighteen months after I was born. So I had a stepmother who never had any other children so I was a loner in effect, which in a way was a good thing because, em, I learnt to stand on my own feet so that helped in one way. When I went into the RAF I was quite happy to be amongst em, other lads which I didn’t have very much in my younger days em.
Any way well get back to, we went to Squires Gate and I was enlisted first was accepted as a em, Wireless Operator Gunner em, but before I was actually called up and joined the RAF I was re delegated to be a Flight Engineer because em, the four engined aircraft, bombers, were taking two Pilots and they were loosing two Pilots in one go, so they introduced the idea of Flight Engineer and I just had a basic training at Squires Gate airfield. While I was there I had to be on guard duties and I was out on the airfield on guard duty em, with a rifle and all the rest of it and I saw these ATC kids getting in an a a Anson aircraft and being flown off. So I said to the Sergeant who was on charge of us when I came off duty “can I get in there and get a flight, I have never been up in an aeroplane and I am supposed to be a trainee aircrew?” and he said “yeah you go over and join them.” So I did and I had my first er, en, flight in an Anson which are normally used for training Wireless Operators and people like that. Anyway we took off from Squires Gate and we flew round Preston Cathedral, I’ll never forget it and it was the first, I was on cloud nine. Anyway so I had more impetus in my er, my studies and I eventually, after I did my square bashing at Blackpool and er, em, the introduction to well what you call engineering. I think we filed a few bits of metal and whatnot and were shown bits of engines.
Anyway I went to St Athan where all Flight Engineers went to I understand. I er, em we learnt a bit more there I suppose and then I was passed out as a Flight Engineer.I couldn’t believe it, it was incredible really from being a hall boy in private service, scrubbing floors and then, then eventually footman in private service serving meals to people I’m suddenly in the RAF, I’m flying. I can’t put over, I can’t even think how it affected me, I just couldn’t believe it. I didn’t care if I was going to get shot at. I was only nineteen and em, I just couldn’t wait em, and eventually I passed all the Flight Engineer training and I was posted to an operational squadron. Oh no, sorry, go back. Was posted to an OTU Operational Training Unit at Dishforth where we flew in Halifaxes at first and then we flew in Lancasters, em. I think I’m missing something else out here. Of course we had to join up with a crew who had been flying Wellingtons,er, which is just a five crew aircraft and,er, this crew before they could go onto four engine aircraft had to pick up their,er, mid upper gunner and Flight Engineer and I don’t know how it was sorted out. We all got together and we got together and formed our crew and I had,em, I had an Australian pilot,(slight pause) no we had a Canadian navigator later on. So we had an Australian pilot and all the rest of us were British, English er, em, then we went onto Dishforth where we did our training on Halifaxes and then Lancasters. I just fell in love with the Lancaster, I was loving every minute of it, absolutely loving it. We went on cross country and I, it, I can’t describe. I’ve always loved flying, always will do eh, to get into the air and got through the clouds and then at night time you go above the clouds and you see the brilliant stars. . I never forget the stars that are in sky, you never see them now. Although he was an Australian he wasn’t your archetypical Australian, he was a sober sort of lad he didn’t drink and he didn’t smoke, all the rest of us did em, but that was his strength in a way, he was very level headed and he was very and he was strong as an ox. We was very lucky. I think it helped a lot, you have got to have a lot of luck but you have to have a certain amount of skill and he as we started flying with him, we got to know him and put our trust in him and he was a very good pilot.
Anyway comes our first op, all slightly nervous and apprehensive. I remember it well it was to the Happy Valley as they called the Ruhr in those days, far from happy for some and em Gelsenkirchen we went to, industrial town in the heart of the Ruhr. We did get shot up a bit, we got a little bit of flack holes and em, er, one of the pipe lines got broken but it was nothing much, no problems, all the engines working properly and we got back ok. That was a start of a series of raids on Germany, they were all on Germany I didn’t get sent abroad at all. So we went on, from 101 squadron this time from Ludford Magna we used to call it Mudford Magna because it was carved out of the Lincolnshire Wolds and made into an aerodrome not long before we got there and it was mud. I always remember the hut we were given, we were given hut number something or other and when we got there, there was a big painting of a chop, chopper there and we all knew what chop meant well you can imagine that did not inspire us very much. Anyway it turned out not to be true for us anyway. We quickly learned that a few people had been in there and not come back again, it all helped to make you cheerful when you went on you first op I suppose. Em, we survived the first op which was Gelsenkirchen that I have said and we went on. The next really impressive one was Hamburg, now Hamburg was the one where there was a fire storm. The first fire storm that was created and that was done I think on the first raid. There were three raids on Hamburg and we went on all of them and I always remember the one because the met said there was a front and it would clear Hamburg before we got there but we all knew what met was in those days they did not have satellites in the sky em, it was just by guess and by God to a certain extent. Anyway when we were approaching Hamburg on the second night er, we couldn’t get above the clouds and er, we could see sheet lightning and all sorts of lightning, anyway Bob decided to press on er, and we started getting lightning flashes right across from one engine to another, big flashes it was absolutely frightening, much more frightening than flack, em, electric lights going all around the canopy. It really was frightening and we still pressed on but we and we got into this culo, cumulous nimbus we started getting thrown all over the place.Bob decided to jettison the bombs and turn for home, but when he opened the bomb doors and we dropped we were thrown sideways and the bombs dented up the bomb bay doors and so we got quite a bit of draft in the aircraft going back. Anyway we survived and we got back home again (slight laugh) and that was another experience with something different that the sky can throw at you, probably more frightening than flak actually.
Eh, anyway the next one, the next sort of notable one we went to was Peenemunde, which was er, its up on the Baltic, on the side of the Baltic where the Germans were developing a rocket, eh, rockets which were eventually going to hit us later on. As opposed to the, eh, and the V1s which were the buzz bombs that went brrrrrrrr, you could hear them coming, I was in London when they first started using them. Anyway they were developing rockets there which were going to be the first rockets that anyone had used er, in warfare and this Peenemunde place was the place where they were er, developing them. We didn’t know this, we, it was highly top secret we weren’t told that this was a rocket place, we were told that it, that they were developing new types of radar which could home onto us. A story which eh, we all swallowed but it made us very determined to get of this place em, because it would make it easier for them to shoot us down, that was the sort of story we were given. We were attacking it in moonlight, it was the first trip we’d been in moonlight, we didn’t normally fly in moonlight and em, er , we were going to bomb it around six or seven thousand feet which was a long way lower than we normally bomb, from normally twenty one thousand feet and em, a full moon but the Germans didn’t really know that we knew about this place I don’t think and it wasn’t very heavily defended, there was just one or two searchlights. Er, I did a picture of this which shows one searchlight which is pretty well accurate. Anyway that was a reasonable success, it wasn’t as big a success as they thought, it did get rid of a few people and and it did slow up their production of these weapons for about five or six months. They eventually moved it all to a place in Germany, underground. Er, em, anyway then we started to what has been called the Battle of Brit, Berlin and we went to Berlin and er Nuremberg. I’m just going to read you from my Log quickly. We went to Berlin, Berlin, Manheim, Munich, Hanover, Munich again and then, and then after that we volunteered to go onto Pathfinders because I hadn’t really mentioned it, but our Navigator at that time wasn’t really up to the job. He took us back over London once from one of the raids and we got, we saw balloons going past us. The Mid Upper Gunner said “Hi skip I have just seen a big balloon” and we were amongst the London barrage balloons and ah, anyway I just remembered, that was frightening that was, anyway, full boost, full throttle ‘cause we were starting to come down for base. Anyway we thought if we volunteered for Pathfinders the Navigator wouldn’t be up to it and we were right. We landed up with a Cambridge educated whizz kid, little, we used to call him Brem. He was a little fellow but he was a fantastic navigator and I think that is another reason that we perhaps survived when we did. So we were lucky to have this navigator and eventually we went to Berlin, we actually went there fifteen times but we set off times but em, on two occasions we had engine problems or we had some sort of problem which made it not really feasible to carry on, so, so.
When we joined Pathfinders of course we had to do extra navigation, we had to do a lot of cross countries at night time and I used to love these cross countries jomits because we could see all the stars and on odd occasions we would see the Northern Lights. Oh, and going back when we went to Peenemunde we went right up north and we could see the lights of Sweden, Stockholm or is it Oslo, my geography. Anyway we could see the lights in Swindon(think he meant Sweden), I had forgotten that. Talking about the Northern Lights of course they are fantastic thing em, so I was still enjoying my flying. I was scared wittless actually over the Target but the target areas themselves were fascinating, there’s flares, there’s searchlights there’s puffs of black smoke all over the sky from flak, it’s, I’ve done paintings of, of raids but you can’t capture it, you really can’t capture it. The sight is incredible and em, er as far as firework shows they leave me cold, I’ve seen the biggest firework show on earth and I don’t know what else I have to say. You see, other than the fact that being aircrew I didn’t have to work on aircraft. The ground crew had a horrible job they had to patch up the aircraft when they came back and when they were at the, on the eh (pause) the perim, eh “what’s off the perimeter?” (someone suggests dispersal) dispersal, they had to work on dispersal points in all weathers. Freezing cold in the winter and we were tucked up in bed then. I mean providing you didn’t get shot down or you didn’t get injured and you came home safely, it was a dawdle. You just em, got scared to death on the op but when you were nineteen, (laugh) “that was a long time ago” it’s all an adventure er, em, it’s exciting in a way. It’s hard to describe unless you’ve been em, but can you imagine as a nineteen year old lad who has had a very boring life before and dying for something different, that I got it in mega bucks and it was a great. Em, and I am sorry to say this, to me, ok there were things that you tend to overlook. The odd nasty things that happen and discomfort in nissen huts and er, that sort of thing but to me I, I, just loved it. I’m sorry but that is the way I say it, I can understand how lots of other aircrew didn’t and they had a terrible time and when I see and read about other peoples’ experiences er, I had a walk in the park really in comparison.
Anyway on the last trip we had was what we thought was going to be a dawdle, which was marshalling yards just outside Paris. This was on the day, the night, the night, of D day and we were bombing marshalling yards and lots of other people were bombing gun emplacements on the south, the north French coast and that sort of thing, but our job was to blow up this marshalling yard just outside Paris called Juvisy . We were Master em, going to be acting Master Bomber which meant we did Master Bomber em er, a few times once you got well into Pathfinder. Being a Master Bomber you direct the bombing and you stay over the target till it all, till it’s all over and telling people not to bomb certain TI’s or certain markers. There wasn’t much doubt about this, it was well lit up and we again. It was one of those low level attacks I think we went in at six or eight thousand feet and I can remember seeing em,er, trucks going up in the air and whatnot and I did feel for any French railway workers down there which I’m sure there were, but that’s war. Anyway we thought that’s great we’re on our way home and we just about left the target when suddenly this ME110 appeared right up beside us, incredible, and before the Mid Upper Gunner could peel round on him he just peeled of. Of course after that we were waiting for the coup de gras. We thought and Bob really started throwing it about like the Spitfire he always wanted to fly. He was a real beefy bloke and he started throwing it about and em, we started doing this for about twenty minutes or so and we thought we hadn’t seen him again and we settled down again and he was just doing a bit of a weave and suddenly, pow! We got hit, feel everything juddering and em, we suddenly went into a dive. He’d hit the, he’d hit the elevators, the Rear Gunner, very lucky chap, he survived. He said “all the elevators have been hit” well we didn’t have to be told that(slight laugh)we felt that. The plane went into a bloody dive and I thought “bloody hell we’ve had it now.” Anyway old Bob being a beefy bloke he really held it back and we tried em, what did we try. Anyway we used the trimmer but it didn’t make any difference em, er, I was helping him pull it back and I remember I had my tool, all Flight Engineers had a tool bag with them, don’t know what they were supposed to do with them half the time. We weren’t going to crawl out onto the engine and start doing things. Anyway eh, I got a piece of thin nylon rope in my tool bag, I don’t know how it be or was there. I don’t know why I should carry this but I had it and we tied er, we tied, or tied a piece of it round one of the circles in the formers of the aircraft. There a lots of holes of course and we put it in there and put it round the yolk, round the upright part of the control column and that gave us quite a good purchase. Then just as we sorted that out we noticed the outboard starboard engine had started to smoke and flames started to come out of it so we eh, feathered that, pressed the fire extinguisher and fortunately the fire extinguisher worked, which it apparently didn’t on Paul that Just Jane from East Kirby. Anyway our fire extinguisher worked so everything was, but of course when all this was going on we were expecting to get the coup de grass, we though he would be back to finish us of. Somehow or other our luck as a crew held and we got back to Manston which is right on the edge of the Kent coast. Em and the landing of course, we weren’t sure if the wheels would go down em but em, he tried the flaps and the flaps worked and he tried then just before, he said “we could do a belly landing if necessary” with the wheels up and everything. We tried the undercarriage and incredibly the undercarriage worked, then the other tricky bit was the pressure required to flare out and hold it on a proper approach er angle and flare out. It wasn’t one of Bobs best landings but it was, you walked, they say if you walk away from a landing that it, your lucky if you walk away from a landing that’s a good landing, and it was. After that we should have done another couple of trips to make up for the two that were aborted but they stood us down and we all went our different ways.
I eventually went up to Lossiemouth and I em er I did instruction on dinghy drill which fortunately I never had to do myself but I had to learn how to do dinghy, I had to learn dinghy drill and then I showed it to operational people, OTU people who were going to have to go on ops. Well we never had that when I went to OTU. But em.and that was at Lossiemouth swimming pool, I always remember that, I enjoyed that. I got to fly, I still wanted to fly they had Wellingtons up there I think and they had other aircraft and I used to get flights er, when they were doing test flights, on any aircraft I would go up in it, I still loved flying, always have done and em er. After that I had to revert to what I was supposed to be which was an Engineer, but all they gave me was changing all the plugs on a Napier Sabre which was about forty eight plugs and that kept you busy for a bit. They didn’t let me loose on anything that was em very important. Em but and I always wanted to and I kept applying to go flying again and I got a job on transport, I got posted to Transport Command and it was a period when we thought we might have to, oh no sorry, the Far Eastern war was still going on. The Japanese war the er the Yanks hadn’t er yet bombed with the Atom Bomb and the Japs was still fighting and we was going to have to send Big Wigs out to the Far East and they were going to be flown over by a civilised version of the Lancaster, called the Lancastrian and for that you had to learn how to load certain loads. It was like civil aircraft, you had to load the aircraft properly with certain loads and whatnot, so we had to do a course on that. Then we eventually flew a Lancastrian and only a month or so after that after we got into this the Japanese war just stopped. The er the Yanks dropped there second Atom Bomb and they surrendered and so there was no more use for these Lancastrians to go out to the Far East.
So then I got, then was trouble flaring, possible trouble with Russia because they had overtaken Berlin and all the rest of it and everybody knows about the Berlin Airlift which I wasn’t on. I would like to have been on that. I was em then put onto Halifaxes and we were towing we were towing gliders and dropping parachutists over the Salisbury Plain we also had to drop ten pound guns and a jeep and they were all strapped under this Halifax, they took the bomb doors off and they strapped these thing on, and you had to drop them on the Plain. Those were the dodgiest piece of flying I think I ever did I think I would liked to have gone back on ops actually. Because they struggled off, off I think it was ridiculous really, they struggled off the end of the runway and if you had anything like a cross wind with all that underneath you sticking out. I can remember being really frightened on take off with that stuff but I must have been a very lucky bloke. I had another good skipper he was a Scot er. Anyway that was Transport Command, you are only interested in Bomber Command aren’t you?
Question by interviewer. “So when you were on Pathfinders?”
Yes of course before we were on Pathfinders, before we actually operated as a Pathfinder we had to do a lot more cross countries and night time cross countries which I used to like. It’s so lovely looking at that starry sky and em everything and very often it was semi moonlight because we did not operated on moonlight towards the end of the war. We did not operate on moonlight because you would get shot down so easily which we demonstrated when we went to Paris but em (pause)oh I get er, and when were on those cross countries that was when I used to get into the driving seat, the skip he’d put it in, you could put the Lanc into automatic you know it could fly itself but of course that is not quite the thing to do when you are operational. He’d put it in automatic I’d get he’d swap seats and I would fly it and I would turn, I knew how to control and aircraft anyway because I was so keen when I was a lad I learnt all about airplanes and em at first the crew said “hey you are not letting him in the seat are you?” (laugh). I took to it quite well and the Navigator would give a course to turn onto and I would turn onto the course and everybody was happy. I was happy, I was happy as Larry because I was flying the airplane, you know, hands on. Not many people have had hands on, on a Lancaster so it has always been one of my things.
From that when I came out I wanted to carry on flying but I had got married and em we were paying a mortgage on a house and you can’t afford to fly. I got a job, not a very not a well paid job, I had a job with Lucas actually in the press shop, not in the press shop actually, doing, getting materials up for them and everything. Then I went in the gas board, kids came along, eventually grew up and once I got, I started getting promotions and a bit more money I still got this feeling I wanted to fly and I wanted to fly the aircraft myself. The next thing the cheapest way of doing that is join a gliding club and er, I joined a gliding club near Grantham at er, Saltby where Flying Fortresses had taken off if you remember, didn’t they, from Saltby and there was a gliding club there which I knew from a friend. I went there and I started gliding. In no time at all I was sent off solo. I done quite a bit of gliding I got the Silver C which is staying up for five hours and er doing fifty K , it was all the fives. It was making a height of five thousand feet and fifty kilometres and five hours up and fifty kilometres and making five thousand feet, that’s right. I went beyond that but got my Silver C in gliding but there are days when you can’t fly anyway, you can be launched and you can take a launch up to fifteen hundred two thousand feet but if there are no thermal or anything at Salby anyway you just came down again. Anyway some friends of mine said “why don’t we get a motor glider?” he heard about a motor glider that was going, a Faulke motor glider he said “you can fly anytime then” and they do thermal as well. I have stayed up for three or four hours in a Faulke you know. We em went to so, and from there this was over a period of a few years, five six years and em you had to pass a test to fly the motor glider which was half way on to getting your private pilots license, but to do that you have got to have a proper single engined aircraft like a 150, Cessna 150 and em, of course that costs, that costs money. Then I was flogging my pictures and whatnot and got a better job. I got a company car that was another thing, I got a job with a company car in advertising driving all over the place and em, I got a company car and they were very easy about, they paid for all the petrol whither it was for me or not. I mean you would not get a job like that these days. (laugh) I was very lucky and from, from then you may not know Burnaston it’s where they make the Toyotas now and that’s just outside of Derby on the A38. That was an aerodrome during the war. They had all sorts there, it was a primary trainer, it’s only a grass strip, it’s a good sized grass strip and they eventually flew em what it’s names off there, didn’t they Pete? “Argonauts” yeah and Dakotas and things and it was sort of Derby, it turned into Derby Airport of course. Then it closed down for a while and Jack, what’s his name, Jones he opened it up, didn’t he? I helped, I just retired then when they started opening up Burnaston as an aerodrome again and I went and helped mark out the runways with a concrete,no it was a white, white chippings to line the runway to mark out the runway to make it commercially acceptable again for flying. They got em (pause) “terrible loose my words.” Em Cessna 150s which are a two seater private aircraft which are a very popular aircraft who want fairly cheap flying. Of course to fly one of those, to hire one out and fly it you have got to have a proper pilots license. That is the first step on flying really a PPL as it called and em er, I started flying these Cessna’s but I couldn’t afford to fly them very much as it was quite expensive to hire out an aircraft and I had got my share in this motor glider anyway. I wanted to add to my flying experience in effect I would like to have gone and done instrument flying so you could fly at night but it all costs money and time. When you are a family man you have to consider your wife and what not so. You are restrict, restricted to a certain extent. I did what I wanted to do to a, you know and I have been very lucky really, very lucky.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Thomas Marchant
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-15
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AMarchantT150715
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Pending review
Pending revision of OH transcription
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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00:51:12 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Tom Marchant had always wanted to fly and at eighteen joined the RAF as a Wireless Operator Air Gunner but was remustered as Flight Engineer after his initial postings to Warrington and Squires Gate Airfield, Blackpool. He describes his very first flight in an Anson aircraft from Blackpool. His next posting was to St Athan where he passed out as a Flight Engineer and was posted to an Operational Training Unit at Dishforth in Yorkshire where he flew in Halifax and Lancaster aircraft and met the crew he would fly with. On completion of the OTU he and his crew were posted to 101 Squadron based at RAF Ludford Magna where they completed a number of bombing operations over Germany. The crew successfully volunteered for Pathfinder duties and had to complete further training in navigation and cross country flying. On these training sorties he actually flew a Lancaster.
On completion of operations Tom went onto instruct dinghy drill at RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland and from there went on to join Transport Command flying Halifax aircraft. After the war he left the RAF but continued to fly gliders and motor gliders from Salby (ex USAF bomber station) near Grantham. He eventually went on to gain his Private Pilots License.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
101 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Hamburg (24-31 July 1943)
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
fear
flight engineer
ground crew
Halifax
Lancaster
Lancastrian
Master Bomber
Me 110
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
Pathfinders
RAF Dishforth
RAF Lossiemouth
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
training
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/575/8844/AGoodfellowN151106.1.mp3
e5ed08535ea015c12b77d649243806fc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Goodfellow, Norman
N Goodfellow
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goodfellow, N
Description
An account of the resource
An oral history interview with Norman Goodfellow (Royal Air Force). He flew a tour of operations as a navigator with 50 Squadron.
The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-06
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NG. The Bomb Aimer was from Southern Ireland, Irish Free State so he couldn’t go home on leave. [laugh] And we all used to finish up in my home town of Wakefield, in Yorkshire.
DC. I’ll just halt you there, I’ll just introduce this. So this is David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Norman Goodfellow at his home. 6th of November 2015. If I keep looking down at this is to just see that it is still working so I am not being rude, that looks ok. One thing I am always interested in, what were you doing before you joined the RAF?
NG. I was an Apprentice Engineer and I finished up in the RAF because we were a reserved occupation, the only two Services open to us was Submarine Service or RAF Service and I wasn’t going under any water at that time so.
DC. As a reserved occupation could you have carried on doing what you were doing and not join the Services?
NG. Oh yeah in fact I should have done really.
DC. So in effect you volunteered to join the Air Force.
NG. As I say that was the only service open to me to get into any forces. I couldn’t go in the Army, I couldn’t go in the Navy except for Submarine Service. I don’t know why they made the distinction, I mean somebody with more ideas than me could do that. But eh finished up in the RAF in Aircrew generally speaking Aircrew I could have finished up as an eh, as an eh a Gunner or a anything But eh when it came to entr, entrance exam I passed with such good marks that I had a choice between a Pilot and a Navigator, or at that time they called it an Observer. And eh I couldn’t imagine sitting there driving an eh eh aeroplane for hours and hours on end I couldn’t have thought about anything more boring than that. So and eh I was a draught, eh a a a drafts, learning to be a draughtsman and eh I thought that will help me in my future life and that and do decent drawings so I plumped for a Navigator and eh they accepted me as a Navigator and we went from there.
DC. So what year would this have been then?
NG. That was, I was just old enough to go in I was born in 1923 so I was seventeen then 1930, 1940.
DC.1940.
NG. And as I say I had just reached the age of entry.
DC. So can you remember what you training involved what your first unit of training was?
NG. I was an Engineer.
DC. So once you joined the Air Force what unit did you join, was it?
NG. When I joined the Air Force I was working as an Apprentice Engineer, I joined as an Apprenticeship and we were actually on war work in fact I got so bored with it, I was what they called a Vertical Borer, that was a machine, a boring machine but it stood upright. And I was doing the turret plates that tanks turned their guns on. And when you have done three of these a day [laugh] you have nothing else to worry about eh.
DC. So actually you were in the Air Force, where did your training start there, was it an Operational Training Unit?
NG. When I went into the Air Force of course I went down to where all the eh Air Crew Training starts and that is eh ACRC in London and did my basic training there turn left turn right.
DC. Was this the one at Lords Cricket Ground?
NG. Yeah St Johns Wood.
DC. St Johns Wood yeah.
NG. Just outside the cricket ground, I forgot the name of the street, well main road it was out of London. And eh it was a good walk into London but the money to spend when we got there and eh it was ACRC, Air Crew Recruiting Centre. Then from there we were, as I say we were general Air Crew then. Then they made the selection of Pilots, Navigators or Wireless Operators or Gunners and eh.
DC. So what was your next unit after that then?
NG. After that I left there, where did I finish up eh, [pause] I should, I could have, oh I went up to Carlisle that’s it and eh, on Tiger Moths. I soloed on Tiger Moths but I still wanted to stick to my original choice of Navigator.
DC. So even though you’d chosen Navigator they still got you flying the Tiger Moths?
NG. Yeah, well everybody did whither they were Gunners or whatever did some training on Tiger Moths, it was a general training scheme. And eh then the selection came after Tiger Moths and I was offered Pilot training because I did me solo on a Tiger Moth but eh I opted for Navigation.
DC. And where did you go?
NG. I went to Canada to do some flying training as well [cough].
DC. So how long were you in Canada for?
NG. Oh, seven months and eh but that was Navigational Training as well and eh when I came back, where did we go next, we moved around that much it took some remembering.
DC. Syerston, Operational Training Unit.
NG. Oh yeah that’s right.
DC. OTU at Syerston.
NG. Operational in Lincolnshire, Operational Training Unit and eh we were Crewed up there we and the Pilots were the people that picked their own Crews out of the mixture what there was there. There was a mixture of Navigators, Bomb Aimers, Air Gunners, he already got his Air Gunner.
DC. So the Pilots basically found their own Crews.
NG. Yeah personal choice.
DC. Were you put in a big Hanger and.
NG. They would just come up to you and say ‘what is your name eh and do you fancy eh flying with me.’ You know I was approached by two or three different Pilots and this one came up to me and said, well I knew him, he was a New Zealander, he got it up here. And eh he introduced himself and by that time he already got his Radio Operator who was also a New Zealander. One comes from the North Island of New Zealand eh Wireless Operator comes from the North Island of eh New Zealand and Johnnie the Pilot came from the South Island. But eh apparently I didn’t know it at the time but found out that Johnnie was rather eh was well to do in New Zealand because they owned their own properties. Farmers Boy he was actually but eh he knew his stuff when it came to flying. And eh, eh the Wireless Operator eh he was a Wireless Operator on Shipping, went from New Zealand to the coast of America so he knew his trade. So eh the three of us got together and Johnnie said ‘Is there anyone you know that eh. Eh, we are looking now for a, a Bomb Aimer. Is there anyone you know in particular?’So I thought for a minute and there was this Irish Lad, he was from Southern Ireland and he couldn’t go home on leave.
DC. A neutral Country.
NG. Well he would have been kept in Ireland they wouldn’t have let him back to England. But he had come to London to live with his Mother, his Aunt in London so he could get in the Air Force. I though the were keen so we, we, we selected him for the Wireless Operator and the Gunners all sorted themselves out really eh. The Rear Gunner he was a New Zealander and Mid Upper Gunner was eh a Lancashire lad came from Boston eh.
DC.Bolton.
NG. Anyway he came from Lancashire. So that was more or less the Crew from then on we all trained together.
DC. Then at that point did you go out to your Squadron then?
NG. Oh no,no we were a long way from that my goodness we wor.
DC. What was the next?
NG. Oh we had to go to eh eh Bombing Training first of all eh doing dummy runs on Lake Windermere and all that.
DC. So what type of aircraft were you flying during the training?
NG. In training we flew in Ansons, the old Anson and then we went onto eh, we didn’t go straight onto Lancasters.
DC. Wellingtons.
NG. Eh yeah that’s right Wimpies, Wellingtons and then we went onto a Lancaster Squadron ‘cause I always remember seeing pictures of them and eh and Johnnie did as well, the Pilot ‘cause we were all mixed friends[?]. He couldn’t go home to Australia, New Zealand rather for holidays; he wouldn’t have got back in time. So they used to come up to Yorkshire with me before. When we were on Squadron we all went to Yorkshire my Mother was busy finding names. Who could put two up, two up, two up to fit us all in and eh but we all stuck together right through the thirty Operations that we did.
DC. So your training was all on Wellingtons ?
NG. Johnnie and I trained first of all on eh the old twin winged two seater, I forgot what the hell they called them now but the others all trained on Wellingtons.
DC. And at this point you now moved to 50 Squadron.
NG. No, no this was still Training Command. We didn’t move onto an Operational Squadron until we had been through [cough] several series of training. Bombing Course, Navigational Course the lot.
DC. Heavy Conversion Unit.
NG. Yeah Heavy Conversion Unit that’s where we converted from twin engined Blenheims to four engined aircraft.
DC. Do you remember which Heavy Conversion Unit you were with?
NG. 15, Number 15 Conversion Unit where was oh yeah it was just outside Lincoln, what were it called, I had it on the tip of me tongue. I know it was within walking distance of Lincoln, five miles oh.
DC. And this was the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. Sorry
DC. And this was the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. This was the Heavy Conversion Unit yeah.
DC. So what type of aircraft were at the Heavy Conversion Unit?
NG. We started on Wellington of course and then we went onto eh Lincolns no Lincolns came after the Lancaster. [pause]
DC. Wasn’t the Halifax was it?
NG. Is that me log book?
DC. Yes.
NG. Oh, always a Gentleman.
DC. Probably sort it out.
NG. Might tell them more than I can tell [laugh] probably will.
DC It’s a history book, so there’s the Ansons, Wellingtons there, no that’s 16 OTU there right.
NG. I can’t remember what the Heavy Conversion Unit was. Still at 16 OTU, 1654 Conversion Unit, I can’t for the life of me remember where that was.
DC. So it says here you were on Stirlings.
NG. Yes, yes,yes.
DC. So Heavy Conversion Unit you are flying Stirlings, flying on Stirlings, what did you think of the Stirlings?
NG. Oh they were good Aircraft, a bit slow.
DC. Bit slow [laugh] high off the ground, big undercarriage, ok then it the Stirlings. Eh so it is Number 5 LFS, Lancaster Finishing School.
NG. Yeah.
DC. So that would be your first experience of the Lancaster was it the LFS.
NG. Yeah.
DC. What was your impression of the Lancaster after the Stirling.
NG. Well I think the Lanc was a bit more spacious than the Stirling, they were both good aircraft the Stirling was a bit crowded.
DC. So then we go to August 1944 when you have joined 50 Squadron.
NG. Oh yeah, that can tell you more than I can tell you [probably referring to his log book].
DC. Was this at Skellingthorpe.
NG. Skellingthorpe, that’s right, five miles from Lincoln.
DC. What was your impression of Skellingthorpe when you got there?
NG. It was a nice open place, lovely, plenty of room there. Yes it was grand and Lincoln was walking distance yeah it were ok there.
DC. It is a housing estate now, it is a big housing estate now. So did you used to walk into Lincoln when you were off duty?
NG. More often than using the bus yeah, there is a camp bus used to go but if you missed that you had to wait on the local bus and I think it was only once every hour from Skellingthorpe the village into Lincoln and the last one at night used to leave about eight o’clock or something ridiculous [laugh] when you were in the RAF you couldn’t get back at eight o’clock at night they would think you were daft.
DC. So what did you used to do when you were off duty in Lincoln.
NG. I used to come home and eh I had a motor bike later on. I used to come home on me motor bike.
DC. So the Pilot named here is Marris.
NG. Johnnie Marris.
DC. So you flew all your Operations with the same Crew?
NG. No, one I went with eh the eh .
DC. Jimmie Flynn.
NG. The Leader Squadron Leader Flynn it was.
DC. Oh have got that, the first of November.
NG. Yeah, he recently died.
DC. Ok that’s a shame. That was an Operation to Homburg?
NG. Well it says it there [?] Don’t ask me where on what night [little banter].
DC. Since when does a Navigator know where he was. Oh yes so how many Operations did you do altogether then?
NG. Thirty two altogether, thirty to Germany and two to Norway.
DC. And they were all at night were they? They were all night Operations.
NG. Oh no not all of them there were some day light Operations, mostly night. Towards the end there were more daylight raids for obvious reasons. [pause]
DC. So was it quite a difficult job then if you were Navigating and obviously the aircraft is being shot at and it is dark?
NG. It’s not funny at all I tell you, well it is something you have just got to put up with. I thought I was one of the luckiest one of the Crew because I had got something to do and occupy myself. But these poor blighters that were sat there in the back in the rear turret, mid upper turret they could see all the flashes that added to the scare mongering sort of thing and I couldn’t. Could hear the big bangs yes but eh I couldn’t see anything.
DC. So was it exactly the same aircraft you flew all the time. Were you allocated you own Lancaster.
NG. No.
DC. ‘Cause I notice they are all the same VNO.
NG. When the Pilot got his aircraft that one were that’s it VNN.
DC. No it was Oboe yours Oboe VNO Oboe.
NG. Sorry.
DC. Oboe, yours was Oboe.
Unknown Voice. Oboe that was the callsign, N Nan was the famous one that done over a hundred trips and featured in all the publicity shots and wartime photographs.
DC. And you have actually done an air test in this one VNN.
NG. Oh yeah.
DC. I have seen the photos.
Unknown Voice. I mean it was just luck wasn’t it, some didn’t come back from the first op some didn’t come back from the twenty ninth with one to do. So it was a sheer lottery.
DC. After you had done your Tour how did you feel then about the thirty or so Operations once your Tour was over?
NG. When me first tour was over, I was, I was just going back to the Squadron when they declared the Armistice. I think I was on boating[?] leave when the news came back that the Germans had surrendered.
DC. How did that make you feel at that point knowing it was over?
NG. Relieved [laugh] knowing it I think if I do remember rightly, I am not sure about that night. I think I finished up drunk that night.
DC. You deserved it.
NG. Quite drunk [laugh] Oh yeah I remember now we were in Lincoln that night and eh we were in. What were the name of that pub at the bottom of that street, leading up to the Lawns Hospital. Anyway it is just of the Main Street of Lincoln just underneath the bridge. And eh we were in the pub, the news broke out they declared Peace, the war was over. When we came out of course, Lincoln was all lit up, “What is happening here?” Everybody were dancing in the street anyway we staggered back to Camp and it was about two in the morning. There again all the hut lights were on curtains were down, everybody was just about blotto I think [laugh] including us. It was, had to be paid for next morning, had to clear up and sober up, yeah it was a good night.
DC. And did you remain in the Air Force after the war then.
NG. For a short while.
Unknown Voice. You went to Egypt didn’t you ‘cause the war in Japan was still continuing so.
NG. I was for a short while when I got there. When I first got there, I went to Palestine first and eh then I went to Malta. Then I was on Operational from Malta but only round the Mediterranean it weren’t anything serious and I finished up in GHQ Cairo as an Instructor.The young ladies who were putting all the notices up on the board there. So and So posted from duty back to New Zealand, Australia, India wherever they come from, there were a big board on the wall. This one were nearly crying, she said ‘I can’t find this one.’ She had been looking for about two hours and she weren’t talking to me, she was talking to the lady in charge of postings called, column. And I heard her say “What is it?” and she said ‘Morris’ she said ‘But I can’t find his number.’ Several Morris’s ‘But I can’t find his number.’ Then she read off a number, she read of a heap of numbers. When she got to one I stopped her and said “Try Marris.” She looked at me as if I had gone daft but, so she went through all the cards again “Marris?” I said that’s right that’s his name. She looked at me in amazement she said ‘You know all these off by heart?’ I said “Off course I do.” She had been struggling for hours to find this Morris. [laugh].
DC. So did you remain in touch with your Crew after the war?
NG. That day when I knew where he was and eh, and eh he was on his way back to New Zealand then I found out he was staying overnight in Cairo. And eh to my big surprise he was married. I thought I am going to say hello to him and shake his hand and say cheerio again, we had already said cheerio. So I went to the Hotel where he was registered and low and behold the girl he was with, he had married was a Nurse from the Lawns Hospital in Lincoln who had been my girlfriend. It were a bit embarrassing he didn’t know at the time but, [laugh]. Johnnie took her back to Australia, to New Zealand with him.
DC. Did you manage to stay in touch with the Crew after the war?
NG. Oh yes for quite a while, then sadly they went one by one, yeah.
DC. So how do you feel now looking back over seventy odd years your time in Bomber Command and the [unclear].
NG. Absolutely wasted.
DC. Really?
NG. What was achieved, we could have spent all that money and all them years making a better World than it is today. It was a waste of time, a waste of man power, I don’t think they will get anywhere with war, they will have to find a way to settle the differences somehow or other.
DC. I am hoping you know in the future people will be listening to this and what you said there and take some note of it. OK I think we’ll stop there thank you.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Norman Goodfellow
Creator
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David Kavanagh
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-06
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AGoodfellowN151106
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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00:30:51 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Norman Goodfellow, born in Wakefield, in 1923. Before the war he worked as an apprentice engineer. Joining the RAF at seventeen he was offered the choice of Pilot or Navigator. Although Norman chose to be a Navigator he initially trained as a Pilot on Tiger Moth aircraft on which he soloed. He was a posted to Canada as a trainee Navigator,then posted back to the OTU at Syerston where he met his Crew. Norman completed his training flying in Ansons, Wellingtons, Blenheims and Stirlings before converting to the Lancaster. Posted to 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe he completed thirty two Operations. He talks about his social life in Lincoln, the aircraft he flew and celebrations on Armistice day. Then posted to the Middle East he met up with his old Pilot in Cairo who was returning to New Zealand. Norman kept in touch with his Crew until sadly they all passed away.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Spatial Coverage
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Canada
Great Britain
Egypt
England--Lincolnshire
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
Blenheim
Lancaster
navigator
Operational Training Unit
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Syerston
Stirling
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/513/8744/AGoldstrawBJ160827.2.mp3
8eaf418c74d7ce5c9c773b6e4cd64067
Dublin Core
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Title
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Goldstraw, John Basil
John B Goldstraw
J B Goldstraw
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Goldstraw, BJ
Description
An account of the resource
Two oral history interviews with Basil Goldstraw (1925 - 2023). He served as a fitter with 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal, before being posted to Singapore.
Date
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2016-08-27
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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DB. I am interviewing Basil John Goldstraw at his home a Haywards Heath on the 27th of August 2016 at 1600. Em Basil I would like you to tell me a little about your experiences before, during and after the war.
BG. Can I just say, you got, when you said legally you have got to use your first, John, legally everything comes to me either JB, sometimes it comes Basil, the people who know, sometimes it comes Mr John. I got one this morning Mr John Goldstraw, which I don’t like. I have always known, everybody knows me as Basil, they cut it short Bas you see and that’s how I sign myself to my friends and Glen and everybody like that you see or sometimes I just say Basil. So it is just that it doesn’t sound right to say it the wrong way round. I am being picky on the one thing that.
DG. Talking today to John Basil known as Bas or Basil Goldstraw at his home in Haywards Heath on the 27th of August 2016 at 1600. Basil as you like to be know best, would you like to tell me about your experiences during the war, before, during and after?
BG. Yep; I was put out leaving me finger on it won’t I.
DB. Here you go.
BG. So that is working now? Right, em having always had an interest in the Air Force eh when war broke out I decided that A I didn’t want to be a Sailor, I didn’t want to be a foot slogger. So I thought the best thing I could do was follow partly an ambition and I went to Dover Street in Manchester at the age of seventeen and volunteered and was accepted for the RAF. My call up papers, my first place of residence was George Street in Edinburgh, rather remember this well because a lad from my home town was due to join up the day after me and his Mum came round to see me and said could he join, could he come along as company? I remember, we got into Edinburgh, we caught a tram, he was a bit slow and I remember him chasing down eh the street, following the tram until we managed to scramble him back on board.[laugh] From George Street the following morning we were trained to Arbroath and our residence was the Old Jute Mills in Arbroath. This is where the basic training took place eh and well remembered because it was an enormous building. Eh a bit like one of the Cotton Mills with everything moved out and there were probably a hundred, a hundred and twenty people living in there. Just as an aside I remember my Mum saying to me, make sure your clothes are aired and anybody who was at the Jute Mills at Arbroath will remember the difficulty we had getting our clothes dry. Every morning we had to put our, fold our blankets, fold our biscuits, put the blankets round the biscuits and do like everybody else had to do, towel and irons for inspection, hiding our laundry out of the sight of the NCO. In the evening we could hang the clothes out and the only way you could really get them dry and this applied to everybody not just me, was to fold your laundry between the sheets and sleep on it overnight and they got reasonably dry, eh it was quite cold but we survived and I can’t remember how long we stayed there but the next port of call for me was Blackpool and 3 S of TT at Squires Gate. Being in Blackpool we were stationed in Civvy Billets and I well remember the lady we stayed with, her name was Bardsley, Mrs Bardsley and a very nice person. There were three of us shared the one bedroom eh, the chap who joined with me from my home town he was one of the inmates, and another chap was Len Kennedy who we became great friends. He actually when the course finished he was posted to a Halifax Squadron in eh Pocklington. The lad from Loxton his name was Perkins eh he became ill so we parted company there from the eh, [unclear] training eh. I am a little bit, can’t remember actually to what happened but I done the Fitters Course and from there I was eh posted to Mepal, 75 NZ Squadron. Eh whilst I had been on the Fitters Course or after the Fitters Course I did volunteer for Aircrew and was accepted. Whilst at Meeple I had to go into sick quarters and then was transferred to the RAF Hospital in Ely from which they done a good job. When I came out the Surgeon said young man you are not going to fly anywhere. Always puzzled me why they didn’t regrade me medically and they I never did, they never did find out really what was the matter. It was only until after the war I think about 1953 or 56 this was diagnosed at St Marys Hospital in Manchester. The time spent at Mepal, I suppose was like anywhere else there were good days and bad days. Eh I was attached all the time there to the RNI Section eh, where we were doing engine, prop changes, modifications, servicing or whatever was required. I always remember two of us had done some work, I think it was on one of the outer engines and, and the rule of thumb was if there was four groups, if there was eh four; what should I say. Remembering that there used to be two groups, eh two people on each engine, I remember that we had finished and the rule of thumb was the last Crew to finish had to see to the engine test run up. See it off on its Air Test and sign the form 700 or 701 I can’t remember which it was before they could go. We were allowed because we were finished we were allowed the rest of the day of which was late afternoon and two of us went for a swim in the Old Bedford Canal at Mepal. As we were swimming the old plane that we had worked on flew over and we had no qualms at all. When we got back into the Mess in the evening, one of them said “eh I think you are in trouble,” so we said “why” they said “well as she came into land eh, the engine went wild, one engine went wild” I think it was the starboard outer “she was too late to do anything so she swerved off the runway, ripped, ripped the undercarriage off and was a mess.” Just on the side it wasn’t our engine for which we were pleased. The outcome was a clevis pin had fallen out of the throttle control and eh left it so they couldn’t control coming in, in the last minute. Poor old bloke, normally controls are examined or they like you, they like a Senior NCO to do that work or check it. People were allowed to do it, the poor old bloke who had eh, done the work ended up on a Court Marshall and I think he disappeared for a fortnight. We used to get the eh Fortresses and Liberators and that flying fairly low over and coming, they used to come back. When our lads were on daylights they used to come back in what we describe as a gaggle whereas the Forts would come back, what was left of them in a Formation. On one of these occasions eh our Squadron was about to land in circuit and the Fortress came in. Eh the Control Box virtually through everything at this Fortress to stop him landing but he seen Mother Earth and he wanted to get down to it and he crash landed luckily without any explosions or fire on the grass on runway near the top towards Sutton. Yeah eh a story that illuminated, if that is the right word from that, we had an MU on the, the airfield and they used to do Majors and Category work. The story is eh, the Americans were still, they were entertained, I don’t know if it was the following morning by the Officers Mess and I think probably a discussion regarding low flying had taken. The story is that morning one of the eh Pilots of 75 eh, was taking a plane up on air test and from what the story goes the American Pilot and his Observer and perhaps others went with them to see how the Lanc flied and everything else. Eh and out over the Wash, the Bedford Canals he came back with a bit of tree branches hanging from one of the engines, I think it was starboard inner and of course it had landed, he had been flying low and it went straight back into the MU for repairs. I don’t know the validity of that but it was a story that went around for quite a while. Again memories coming back, we had, had an intruder come in one night eh, and drop Butterfly Bombs, anti-personnel bombs all over the place we were out of action the following day until the Bomb Disposal people had been and we had no air defence at that time but eh twin browning mounted on a stalk were obtained from somewhere and quite a number of Ground Crew had to go down to Waterbeach for training eh, on these, on this equipment for future Air Defence. Luckily for everybody Gerry never came back again. The next instance that comes to mind is that the Ops, at the latter end of the war Ops were delayed then eventually I think they were cancelled. And eh some of the bomb load were delayed actions. And in the night, I think the idea was to get an early morning start and in the night a terrific explosion occurred somewhere up on A or B Flights one of the Lancaster’s, one of the delayed action must have gone off and we lost quite a few eh planes either through shrapnel damage and one or two just disappeared. Again we were out of action until some more arrived. We have on the, on the Squadron, on the Airfield we had a eh group of Instrumentalists, they were known as the “75’ers.” I don’t remember them playing on actually the Airfield but they used to play at Chatteris if they were not on duty Em, on, I don’t know Fridays, Saturdays night. It was always difficult knowing how to get there because there was no bus service, you had to cadge a lift or cycle. Em, sometimes, sometimes if you got a lift you couldn’t get one back because the chap giving you the lift had got other interests at that time of night. It may sound silly but we had a good relationship with the Police, so you could go into the Station on arriving in Chatteris and say to the Sergeant in the Police Station, little Police Station there, “have you got a bed for the night Sarge.?” And if he was not busy he would say “right ho lads.” And you would stay there overnight, catch the workman’s bus in the morning, eh put two bob in the box, in the box for the eh, Police. Catch the bus, the bus that dropped you of somewhere where you could get into the Airfield without the eh SPs noticing you. As long as you were there for eight o’clock in the morning nobody seemed to worry too much. But it was quite regular that one could do that, it sounds silly you couldn’t do it now. Eh but eh we were friendly and of course the band the billet that I was in we used to play a lot of eh cards, some people gambled, I didn’t but we used to play, can’t remember the card game, it was fifteen two, fifteen four so you could perhaps remember that. Eh we had the eh Officer of the day came down to inspect and there was no list, official list on the back of the door for who were inhabited the bill, the eh hut but there was a list there with our, Crib that was the name of it, I have just remembered our crib tournaments that we used to run in the billet. The NCO in charge said “well Sir the, the crib notices is on and everybody of note is on the crib notice, so we got away with that one. Eh I remember with the Seventy Fivers Band, Arthur Swift he used to play fiddle, Johnnie Kimber he used to play sax, Len Mitchell use to play drums and there was one other that I can’t remember. When maximum effort was on em and I am not sure wither we had twenty four or twenty six planes eh we had long hours at times, I remember working all day and then in the evening we worked through the night, I remember that well because I changed a prop. And when we rung it up it had, had battle damage on it an had been repaired eh and when we rung it up the thing vibrated. This was the latter end of the night we were working, so that was a big panic on to get the trestles on again and change the prop, we had to do it to make sure it was balanced. Eh but some days were long and some days as I said extended through to the following morning. When at the latter end of the war eh the Squadron was moved to Spilsby, if I remember right 424 Squadron came in to eh Mepal and 75 were I think preparing for Tiger Force and then going home, they were going to be equipped with Lincolns. Em; we then some personnel were moved, I was one of them to Upwood and then from Upwood there was then one or two people, I was one of them selected for Overseas again for Tiger Force. We were flown out in an old York via Malta, Albania, Karachi and for a while at Calcutta at Ballygunge for about for about six weeks and then from there eh a Dakota down to Mingaladong, Butterworth, eh and eventually into Singapore from where I was demobbed. We came home by a Dutch liner as they called it the Umbernauld and Barnabelt[?] if anybody came home on that they were lucky to get home and the boat itself became the Moortown[?] and burnt out in the Med in, in fifties or sixties so it should have been burnt out before we got on it. These days one listens to our lack of equipment and poor equipment. Eh, nothing seems to have changed since I was in the Services eh my tool kit eh that I was issued with and other people consisted of a few assorted spanners, a hard faced hammer and screwdriver and pair of pliers. Eh so as I say as regards equipment I don’t think much has changed today. After the war when I was demobbed, I am trying to think, just going back to tools, one of the items that I always seemed to get to on a maintenance was a, because we was handed strips of hard paper with the tasks we had to perform on an engine. And one had to sign for everything that one did so that, that piece, that slip of paper went into the log book which carried your name. Eh there was a small boost aneroid on the port side of the Lanc. Eh and a little dome on there was held on by three ba screws and nuts. I always remember nobody had a three bar spanner so one had to manipulate a pair of pliers and hope it worked because one had to take the aneroid out and clean the eh the slide valve. Em I was in March one day an there was an iron mongers in there, I slipped in and said “have you got a three ba spanner by any chance?” They are the sort of things, mag spanners and that was very useful, in actual fact I have still got it in my tool box. Memories, good Lord, thus saying I got demobbed I think it was near Preston I can’t remember the name of it but that doesn’t matter eh, and of course went back to work for the local authority which we were a borough with our own gas, sewage works and eventually I became in charge of all the maintenance not only on the eh plant, on the vehicles but also on the sewage works equipment and the water works. Having; I had special and separate overalls at the time and separate wellingtons dependant on wither it was a sewage works or the water works that I was attending. Rather laughable but really Health and Safety hadn’t really got in properly then. Eh I quite, it was interesting, I quite interesting and I stayed there until 1968 when I moved down into the Sussex Area again with an other author, authority and in the meantime I,I had become a Member of the Road Transport Engineers, Institute of Road Transport Engineers and one or two other things. So I retired I think in 1980,83 or 86 that, beyond me to remember so I have had quite a good wholesome retirement for which I am very grateful. I suppose one interesting point would be that I was always in R and I, chap named Flight Sergeant Sadler we had always been, he was an Australian he had an MID up and we always referred to him as Bondy Sadler very rarely did you say Flight to him. He was that type of bloke that eh accepted the fact that he was like everybody else, that he were human. Eh with the Flight people we had A, B and C Flight we never really encountered them. It was not an anti-social thing it was just the way that they were on the Flights, they would, they would probably have eh a Rigger, an Engine Fitter and possibly and Electrician and Armourer to each, to each Lanc eh and eh they spent their life generally eh maintaining, repairing the same plane until unfortunately that plane perhaps became lost in action and eh they knew the Aircrew much more than we in, well we didn’t actually in RNI we didn’t actually get in contact with the Aircrew. Our, our, ours was a Lancaster repaired if it went out on air test, came back, the next one was virtually waiting to be attended to so em, eh we were not anti-social say. Luckily a lot of people who were on R and I eh we, we, we sort of associated with particularly in our hut. Just memory that.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Basil Goldstraw
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Denise Boneham
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-27
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Sound
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AGoldstrawBJ160827
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Basil Goldstraw was classed as medically unfit for aircrew and following training as a fitter, he was posted to 75 Squadron at RAF Mepal. He discusses aspects of his work as a fitter, being bombed, and life on and off the station. He was posted to Singapore as part of Tiger Force and worked as an Engineer with local authorities after the war.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Singapore
England--Cambridgeshire
England--Chatteris
Temporal Coverage
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1945
Language
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eng
Format
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00:28:39 audio recording
75 Squadron
B-17
bombing
crash
entertainment
fitter engine
flight mechanic
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
military living conditions
military service conditions
RAF Mepal
Tiger force
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/471/8354/ABirkbyB150729.1.mp3
40d49652d36d4a48be5610dad7fe0f43
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Birkby, Bessie
B Birkby
Tess Birkby
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Birkby, B
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Leading Aircraftswoman Bessie Birkby (1924 - 2019) and two photographs. She was a Women's Auxilliary Air Force driver stationed at RAF Binbrook, RAF Kelstern and RAF Scampton.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bessie Birkby and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-30
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM. Ok so this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewer is Annie Moody and the Interviewee is Bessie?
BB. Birkby.
AM. Birkby, and the interview is taking place at Bessie’s home Wath on Dearne on the 30th of July 2015. So if perhaps Bessie just to start with tell me a little about your background, about your parents and school and stuff like that.
BB. Shall I tell you my age first?
AM. Go on tell me how old you are.
BB. I am ninety one going into ninety two. I was married to my husband Walter Birkby he always got called Wally I got called Tess that was my nick name and eh we had been married sixty three years when Walter died. And eh anyhow I was eighteen when I joined, had to join, because eh my sisters were nurses but I worked in a shop. So it was either going in munitions or going in the forces.
AM. How old were you when you left school Bessie?
BB. I was fourteen.
AM. So what did you do straight from leaving school?
BB. Mostly working in shops, you know [cough] like grocery shops and eh I loved it but then of course I was working in a shop when both my sisters were nurses. So I had to choose, either going in the forces or going in factories where you make bombs and things.
AM. Ok, you could have stayed in the shop, but you wanted to do something?
BB. But I fancied going in, in the forces so I joined and eh my mum put me on the train in Doncaster and I was crying and she was crying but I still wanted to go. But I’d never been, I never left home or, my father worked in the pit and my mum she had five children. I was next to the eldest and eh so we were both upset at me going but I still wanted to go. I was going as far as Bridgenorth anyhow I got on this train and off I went. When I got there, it was a long journey and when I got there, on the last train. I remember where I had to change but I don’t remember where or anything. So I met up with the girls that were going in to join to be a WAAF.
AM. What year was this Bessie?
BB. What year was it it was 1942.
AM. ’42.
BB. Yeah and so [cough] eh when we got there to Bridgenorth, ‘course you had to have a medical and all sorts of thing like that.
AM. What was that like.
BB. Well I had never really been away from home, I never sort of got undressed in front of anybody and it, it was an ordeal. And eh but anyhow I carried on and I made friends and I was very popular because I could do make up, I could do hair and all sorts, I used to love it you know, beautifying. I got lots of friends because they used to come to me.’Oh Bessie will you do my hair or will you do this, pluck my eyebrows?’ And I really enjoyed it but anyhow we had to get up early to get your knife, fork and spoon and what have you. You had to go outside for to wash yourself and eh and anyhow we started marching, we used to have to go on parade. And eh so anyhow I don’t know how long I was marching and what and then of course I put in to be a driver but of course I had to go along to be em trained [?]. So I had to go with girls I go to me MT Sections and em got sort of well anything you know [a little confused].
AM. When you put in to be a driver did you have to have an interview or anything or did they say yes you can be a driver then?
BB. No I had to, in fact they sent me to a place where there were balloons you know and I had to practice putting a balloon up which was like driving a car.
AM. Tell me more about that, how do you put a balloon up.
BB. I was posted to Scotland and so and there we didn’t have we had to go in digs in peoples houses. This lady I went into she were a lovely lady and she took to me. In fact for years I wrote to her but we lived in Borough Muir West and and I were really I loved it sending the balloon up.
AM. What do you mean ‘sending the balloon up.’?
BB. You had to fly it.
AM. How big was it?
BB. Huge, didn’t you remember them balloons, well they were huge weren’t they?
Unknown Male. Like a Zeppelin.
AM. Oh like a Zeppelin? Oh eh I have got you.
BB. They were like as big as a caravan.
AM. Like a barrage balloon?
BB. Yeah.
Unknown Male. So that planes would fly into wires that were holding them.
BB. ‘course it got me going to change gear and one thing and another to learn.
AM. So where were you, were you on the ground.
BB. I were in a cage and balloon were over top of me, I used to have to send them up and Germans were coming over, you know it were queer. But anyhow I think I was there about six months and eh there must have been a place for me to start up for me driving and I was posted to Pwllheli in North Wales then again.
AM. So down, up to Scotland and then across to Wales.
BB. Yeah, down in Pwllheli oh that were, I was six months there but you had to do eh, besides learning to drive you had to do, learn how to eh maintain your vehicle in the morning you put and inspection for your water, your battery what have you and then [cough] you go out driving on the roads. I used to go in all these eh country lanes it were in Pwllheli.
AM. Who was it that were doing the instructing.
BB. We had men instructed.
AM. What were they like?
BB. Well I don’t recall.
AM. What were they like with you I mean, were they ok, women learning to drive?
BB. I were a ‘right with learning this balloon business I knew how to change gear, do the footwork because you had to do it like driving a car and so I was very lucky because I soon learned to drive but I was there six months so I had a thorough training but when you passed out you had to pass out on three vehicles.
AM. Different ones?
BB. Yeah a little one, small and then a fifteen hundred and then a thirty hundred weight and then of course later on it in the time I got to drive a two ton, were it, what were it, crew bus. I used to drive the crew bus. I was first posted to Binbrook when I passed out driving but there were lots of girls who failed and they couldn’t go back driving they had to remuster to another job. But I was very fortunate I passed it all and then I was posted to Binbrook and they were just forming our Squadron 625 Squadron and it was Bomber Command. I forgotten what Group was it One Group? Bomber Command, 625.
Unknown male. You were stationed, no you would have been in Five Group.
BB. Can’t remember.
AM.Anyway 625.
BB. 625 Squadron.
Unknown male. It would be in Five Group.
BB. Yeah and so they were forming this Squadron and then from Binbrook I was posted to Kelstern which was a few mile away because there was a lot of aerodromes in Lincoln at that time, weren’t there and so this were all new but we all had eh to sleep in these eh tin things, what did you call them?
AM. Nissan huts.
BB. Nissan huts and there were ten beds, you just had your bed and what have you. You didn’t have sheets, aircrew had sheets but not.
Unknown male. Aircrew had sheets.
BB. But not.
AM. The girls didn’t .
BB. And we were in these, fireplace in the middle and it were a little round thing and and I don’t know what it, I think it was coal or coke and that were only heating you had. You had to go outside for toilets and what have you, ablutions, it were you know. But, oh it were marvellous and at Kelstern I got very friendly eh and I were post, I were given a job on the ambulance. So I lived in sick quarters and eh with being at Kelstern when that snow came, nobody could get anywhere could they. It were terrible but I [cough] used to take the MO, the Doctor down into Lincoln and I used to drive him about on the small ambulance. There were bigger ambulances for a crew and eh this particular day we were going down into Lincoln and the MO he were a marvellous fellow and he had flying boots on, big coat but then eh, now he says ‘ I shall be about two hours so you go market, have a look round and meet me so and so, and we will come back to camp, to Kelstern.’ So anyhow I did that and I thought while I’m in, ‘cause where I lived down at the old mill at home we had apple trees, pear trees and all sorts. So I thought ‘ I will buy me self some apples.’ And I am [unclear] eating me apple and I went to pick the MO up like and I said ‘would you like and apple sir?’ he said ‘yes I would,’ he said ‘now don’t be getting tummy ache.’ You know before tea time I started reeling, the nurses were saying ‘we are going to fetch the MO to you.’ Because I were crying with pain and of course they fetched him from Officers Mess. When he came he said ‘my dear I will have to take you down to Louth Infirmary.’ They operated on me with appendicitis before midnight. Do you know he stayed with me because I was crying, I wanted me mum, Oh I were in a state. Me mum managed to come and see me I were in a farm house.
AM. So it weren’t the apple. [laugh]
BB. [laugh] No, well I don’t know what it were, anyhow he were brilliant and he stuck with me until next morning when I come round. In them days putting you to sleep it were horrible, dreaming and what not. Anyway he gave me some leave and I were at home about a month I think. Anyhow it was when that snow was on of course there were no flying. So of course I went back to Kelstern and then a month after we got a message to say we were all moving to Scampton.
AM. Just before you moved to Scampton what did you do then when you got back to Kelstern?
BB. I went back on the ambulance
AM. Still the ambulance, so you were driving the MO around who, what else were they using the ambulances for, the crew or.
BB. Well they used the ambulances to follow them back didn’t they? They used to be many a time crashes ‘cause they used to shoot at them didn’t they? It were horrible. Anyhow eh I carried on then and then of course we all went to Scampton, I can’t remember the date at all. So anyhow I know for a fact that all Lancaster bombers from Kelstern, they all got toilet rolls where bombs used to go and they let them all go over the fields and there were white toilet rolls when we moved, when we moved.
AM. Why was that then.
BB. It was just a bit of fun for the farmers, these were aircraft doing this. Anyhow we got to, to and of course with me this one job I did eh I didn’t always be on ambulance. I remember eh there were er er an Officer in command of our MT and he came to Kelstern and he said to whoever were in charge of our MT at that particular time ‘I want one of your best drivers, because I am going visiting eh we shall be away about three weeks.’ He says ‘ I want somebody I can trust.’ And and I was a good driver so they picked me. So he were brilliant now he says, we had a good car, it were really good and we set off and we were going all up North to go to Topcliffe and all them aerodromes and we had to visit all MT departments. He says as we were setting of he says ‘now then I want you to relax and I want you just to think of me as your father. Whatever you want you must tell me and if you are ever in trouble or whatever you do when we get to different Stations I’ll get you sleeping quarters. And I’ll see that you are put, well looked after and you will not have to be frightened and you will have to get in touch with me if, if you are frightened.’
AM. What did he think you would be frightened of?
BB. I don’t know.
AM. All them men.
BB. I didn’t think of it then. You know I weren’t frightened because we lived out, when, when we were girls we lived down on our own in countryside we used to go to school and we couldn’t go home for dinner because it were too far away. We lived down at old mill didn’t we?
Unknown male. Aye [unclear]I remember being down there.
BB. In fact when I used to go home on leave I used to arrange, I used to hitch hike home to as far as Doncaster when I had the leave and eh what I did I used to catch the double decker bus from Doncaster and it always used to go to Brampton Church where I had to get of me last call, you know and it always used to get there about ten o’clock. And where we lived at the old mill I got off the bus and then I come on some steps and to go down these steps and down the road and what I used to do. Me mum used to be watching out for that double decker bus, she could see it from where we lived. And I used to whistle we had two dogs and me mum used to say ‘go on she’s come our Bessie, go and meet her.’ And they used to come as far as bottom of green them dogs and come and meet me home. And we had a big long orchard going down another way didn’t we?
Unknown male. Yeah.
BB. He knows where old mill were ‘cause it were a lovely, lovely cottage where we lived.
AM. Sounds it.
BB. Aye me mum always used to, always she used to always save me a little bit of steak and give me a cuddle. She used to spoil me, anyhow that were, I’m cutting me tale aren’t I. Anyhow I did that for three weeks and I got leave again given and it were wonderful, I enjoyed it and he were a gentleman and we had a burst, we had a burst tyre, I think we were near Topcliffe and and he said I’ll do it and he changed wheel. I said ‘I can do it I am capable.’ He said ‘I’ll do it. ’Because I had been driving. It were marvellous that and, and I were right proud to think they had chosen me, oh it were lovely. Anyhow, and then when we were posted to Scampton that’s when I met me husband but he already got a girl, lady friend. One of me first jobs there was sick quarters again on the ambulance, well I had small ambulance but they had quite a few big ins. Because in fact they had another Squadron there besides our Squadron. In fact there were they had just done eh where they dropped them bombs?
AM. Oh Dambusters.
BB. Yeah we must have been at Kelstern when that was on, it was soon after that when we were posted to Scampton.
AM. So it was 617 Squadron the other one then?
BB. Yeah so anyhow.
AM. What was it like being there with, how many women and how many men ‘ish a lot more men than women?
BB. Oh yeah.
AM. So what was it like.
BB. Well it, I don’t know it well you just did a job you were twenty four hours on and twenty four hours off weren’t we. I really, I had a wonderful life. I met me husband I’d been there quite a bit before I met him.
AM. Tell me a bit more about what you did, you drove the small ambulances.
BB. Yes.
AM. And then what or were you just driving the ambulance right through because I’ve got a picture of you here with the.
BB. That was at Binbrook.
AM. Oh was that at Binbrook.
BB. That was me first.
AM. Right
BB. Yeah that was at Binbrook.
AM. So you were an ambulance driver at Scampton.
BB. And I have another one a lovely one it’s in a it’s in a, in fact somebody came knocking at door one day and said we’ve seen your picture in a pub in Cleethorpes. It was me stood agin a van an RAF vehicle and it’s a lovely picture and it was in this on this, and then above there were all women marching, another two pictures. I am on this picture but I can’t remember myself being on it because I couldn’t see properly, but anyhow.
AM. Tell me about meeting your husband then? [unclear]
BB. Well he already got a girl friend.
AM. On the Base.
BB. On the Base and she was a parsons daughter but nurses used to kid me on and they used to say Bessie ‘you can’t have him because.’ But they used to call me Tess, I didn’t get called Bessie ‘you can’t have him because he has got a girl friend.’ I said ‘I’m not bothered but I’ll keep trying.’ Anyhow he went on leave didn’t he and when he was on leave she went out with a Pilot. Well I didn’t tell him but somebody did so I go me, I don’t know how it came about but I got talking to him and eh, and eh he took me to the pictures and it were Pinocchio, they were a picture on camp and we started going out together then and he had to go to Italy ‘cause they went, what did they go for.
AM. Were they dropping propaganda leaflets and stuff like that.
BB. Aye and he came back with a big thing of fruit and he gave it me and then we went home and I met his mum and dad in Bradford. He lived in Bradford.
AM. What was Wally, he was an Air Gunner.
BB. Yeah he got to be Warrant Officer before he, ‘cause there is his warrant up there, aye but when I met him he was a Sergeant. Then he got to be Flight Sergeant then he were. He ended up looking after prisoners of war eh after war finished. I mean he stayed in a bit longer than I did but eh I came out because I were pregnant.
AM. You were married by then?
BB. I loved him and, and so well we had been married all them years.
AM. You had been married sixty five years.
BB. We had a lovely life in RAF because girls used to come and Bessie pluck me eyebrows, Bessie do me hair, they used to say Tess to me like
AM. Tess
BB. I used to have some gloves on and I used to have Tess written on them. I used to be, I used to drive crew buses at Scampton and it [unclear] ambulance job.
AM. So what was driving the crew bus like, what, what was that?
BB. Well, I mean many a time within two minutes, they’d one go off and two minutes after another one, they were two minutes
AM. Oh eh the planes?
BB. Hundreds, loads, fifty, sixty oh and we used to wait at the end of the runway eh no flying control weren’t it. We used to stop against flying, and then we used to sort of go, go and dodge about or what have you and be there when they came back. Used to be watching them but once when I were driving the ambulance and there were planes came back and Germans were following them because they used to have to put runway lights on. If you were driving a crew bus and you were going to pick lads up that were coming back and they used to say ‘be early for me.’ You know didn’t they, used to breathing down your neck and eh [cough] and there would be no lights on. And you would be driving on and you would see this black brrr and you would go on grass. Oh it were mad and I mean, and but it was sad and all weren’t it especially and there used to be seven coffins go out and you know. They used to follow them back did Germans. It were terrible, they were nearly ready for landing.
Unknown male. Yeah when you were in circuit.
AM. The German fighters, fighter planes.
BB. Yeah but I had a lovely life, I enjoyed every bit of it and I loved him all me life.
AM. Good.
BB. I did really.
AM. What did you do after the war, did you come out more or less straight away.
BB. Well I were quite well on with having me baby but eh I’d been in four years and eh and he come out [cough] eh, [pause] mm, I know I had two children, pity me husband was still in he were looking after Italians and and they were brilliant eh they didn’t make no bother for me husband he was in charge of them, in fact they made him a cabinet.
AM. Where was that Bessie?
BB. It was where Terries are, is it Ipswich where we used to go picking because we got into married quarters, I had me baby she was nine month old, he was still in RAF. And eh, and eh and we were in married quarters and we used to be picking these cherries and eh ‘cherries, excuse me.’ Eh but I had lots of jobs really, I didn’t only drive the ambulance and crew bus I had lots of jobs you, you, you were detailed you know they would leave you so long in the ambulance and then you would be so long on this crew bus and then you would probably eh. I used to have different vehicles, vehicles where I could pop in home going through to Sheffield, yeah I did. My mum used to say ‘Oh goodness me there’s our Bessie, look what she’s got that big thing.’ And I used to be in this two, three ton lorry and and you had to jump over wheels. They couldn’t believe it and eh [laugh] she used to, oh it were lovely. I did used to drive lots of different vehicles and of course I got to be LACW that were leading aircraft woman. But I could have been a corporal but you had to go inside and I didn’t want that job, so I never.
AM. You enjoyed the driving?
BB. I did, I loved it and of course me husband he didn’t drive then Wally but eh he had a, he had a motor bike and we used to go up on leave and I used to ride on the back of his motor bike, but when he got out of the forces he went to the School of Motoring and he got a job British School of Motoring. Because he went to Blackpool, Lytham St Annes with RAF. He had to remuster because eh when flying had finished you know. So; but they were happy days.
AM. Lovely, did you drive after the war?
BB. Oh yes it stood me in good stead that because there weren’t many women drivers. Yeah, I got a job as soon as I got me two little ones to school. Me mum used to live nearby because she moved from where we lived and she got near to where I lived an she used to have two children for me.
AM. So what did you do?
BB. I used to drive for eh, eh war veterans and I used to go out selling bread and cakes and what have you and I had a real good job there.
AM. It must have been, so this was in the 1950’s.
BB. Our eh yeah 1947 Jeff were born and Nigel were born in 1946. I didn’t come out while I think. She were born in March and I didn’t come out until the middle of February because I weren’t showing, couldn’t tell.
AM. As long as you weren’t changing wheels.
BB. I’ve still got me pay book and I’ve still got me husbands pay book.
AM. Oh I might have a photograph of them as well.
BB. I know.
AM. That was excellent, thank you.
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Interview with Bessie Birkby
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Annie Moody
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-29
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Sound
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ABirkbyB150729
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Bessie Birkby grew up in Sheffield and volunteered for the Women’s Auxilliary Air Force in 1942. She first worked in Balloon Command in Scotland and then trained to be a driver in North Wales. She was then posted to 625 Squadron at RAF Binbrook but later transferred to RAF Kelstern and worked driving ambulances. She discusses driving the station Medical Officer into Lincoln in the snow and driving crew buses. She developed appendicitis, and had an emergency operation at Louth. Transferred to RAF Scampton, she again drove ambulances and crew buses, she met her husband Wally an air gunner and they were married for sixty five years. She talks about how the station was attacked by night fighters. While in the RAF she managed frequent visits home, sometimes in RAF vehicles. On leaving the Air Force she had three children and worked as a driver selling bakery items.
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Hugh Donnelly
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Balloon Command
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
Wales--Pwllheli
Temporal Coverage
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1942
Format
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00:31:39 audio recording
625 Squadron
entertainment
ground personnel
love and romance
medical officer
military living conditions
Nissen hut
RAF Binbrook
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Kelstern
RAF Scampton
service vehicle
training
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/464/8346/AAngusK160608.2.mp3
6784c8dca08ace40b9ddb9bbbf00dc27
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Angus, Kenneth
K Angus
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Angus, K
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Kenneth Angus.
Date
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2016-06-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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IL. It’s the 8th of June roughly ten past two in the afternoon I’m Ian Locker and I am interviewing Kenneth Angus in his home in Elloughton near Hull. We are going to talk mainly about Ken’s Brother.John Henry who was in Bomber Command and was sadly killed at the age of twenty.
IL. Ken tell us a little bit about your early life and your Brothers early life.
KA.Well I was either eleven or twelve when the war started, my Brother was in in the volunteer, the RAF Volunteer Reserve and so was my Father. My Father was in the Air Force as well cause he was in. I never knew what he did to be quite honest I never saw him for five years all the time the war was on. He was at Cranwell actually, what he did I have no idea. He actually was in the First World War and he was wounded and came back, went back again. He was wounded again and he came back, actually came to Hull came to Withernsea actually and married my Mother. That was, when he came out of the Army there were no jobs, so he joined the Air Force and he was in, he is a very very close man. He wouldn’t tell about his experiences. A lot of this I didn’t know I only found out from my Sister. Anyway the both of them, my Brother and my Father were in the Volunteer Reserve, just before, well 1939 soon as War was declared Harry went into [Interupted by IL]
IL. So how did your Brother get involved with the Volunteer Reserve.
KA. I have no idea.
IL. I see.
KA. Actually my Father, I think it was extra money to be quite honest with you, It’s like the Territorial’s, you join. I used to know people in the Territorial’s and they just joined for the extra cash. As far as I know but my Father was such a close person.He never discussed his home life, as I say at the beginning of the war, well I’ll show you a photo in a minute, he was a Sergeant. Yeah em a Sergeant or something, he had three stripes anyway, I only ever saw him once, when I was stationed, when I joined the Army I went to Babington in Dorset and from there I went to Farnborough, just outside Farnborough. We had tanks stationed at the you know Farnborough Airport, De Havillands actually. He was coming there for something to do with the Air Force he said I’ll meet you there we will have some lunch and that’s it, the only time I ever saw him in five years. Eh we weren’t really close, my eldest Brother Harry was more close to the kids, you see there was six of us we were err you know a huge family. I remember, I do remember him actually because when he was killed I was evacuated. When my Mother told me at that time it didn’t register it em registers now but it didn’t register at that time. My Mother was devastated obviously, when em he went in.I don’t know a great deal about it, as soon as the war started I was off. I went to place near Helmsley and stayed there about two years I think it was and eh. I was away when he was killed, my Mother wrote to me and told me it didn’t register at all really and that was it. Anyway my Father he did his full time he did the war, full time he was there and em, we were em. It’s such a long time ago its very difficult to remember. When I was evacuated I went on a farm it was beaut. It was really good I was with two old, and old couple and they were brilliant they were the Salt of the Earth. Didn’t smoke, didn’t have electricity, we used to read by candle light, no hot water and yet we lived off the fat of the land you might say because he was a Farmer. I used to help him em I used to do everything virtually and drive a tractor and all sorts of things. I stayed there, would be about a couple of years. In the meantime my Mother was, my Mother stayed in Hull and then we were bombed, we got an incendiary bomb through the back porch, well through the house. It came through the roof, set fire to the house and my Mother had to move.
IL. So where about were you living in Hull at this time?
KA.In Jallen Street off Holderness Road. And eh I remember as I say lots of it’s very hazy. I was looking after myself actually I’ve always looked after myself, always been independent right from day one and I think that all the family has actually. Anyway, we, I went there and when my Mother, my Mother went to Wombwell, she had a friend, he was on the Council. He found her a house in Wombwell, it was just outside Wombwell. Eh she went there‘cause I was on the Farm you see. Anyway after about a couple of years my Mother said, she came back to Hull again so I came, I left the Farm and I went back to Hull with her and I stayed there. We were in the thick of the, you see I don’t remember a real lot. I do remember one thing and it’s vivid. They dropped a stick of Bombs down Holderness Road and I tell you exactly where they dropped them because I went out the next day to see the holes in the ground. They were bloody awful a huge hole, they dropped one, you won’t know it. There was a cinema called Savoy on Holderness Road they dropped one just on the main road there. They dropped one further down the er em, the main road, I forget what they call it. They dropped one there, there was a Bank on the corner, they dropped one there. They dropped one on the corner of Vies Park and three big holes, I’ve never seen holes like it to be quite honest.
IL.So where were you when these bombs were falling?
KA. We were in a shelter.[laugh].
IL. Where did you shelter in Hull, was it in your garden ?
KA. You know I can’t remember, I just can’t remember. We had a shelter in the garden in Jallen Street. We were moved around, my Mother moved around two or three times. She went from Jallen Street to eh a house, oh, somewhere near Nornabelle Street which is further up the road. Quite honestly a lot of this is very hazy it was seventy years ago. Anyway there are certain things stick in my mind once when they dropped the bombs, I was cured. You know they didn’t frighten me. I wasn’t really as far as I know I just went, I went to have a look at the holes. Of course all I saw was pipes and gas pipes and water pipes and sewage mains oh. As I say another time, another, I remember a Heinkel came over, I watched it come over it was so low I could see the Pilot, we were waving to him actually [laugh] with two fingers. He came over and I could actually see him flying the plane. He came over ever so low and behind him was a Spitfire and he chased him and they shot him down. The Pilot we heard, the Pilot waited until he got out of the built up area and he shot him down, I don’t know what happened after that. But em those are the two memories in my.
IL. Did anybody, I suppose there were civilian casualties, did anybody you know get hurt or killed?
KA. No funnily enough there might have been but I wasn’t family orientated in those days. To be quite honest it was like living a dream, I was on my own, I was evacuated on my own, I looked after myself. My Mother used to write to me occasionally, I never saw my Father. My Mother used to write whenever she could but you see having said that, there was my younger Brother and my younger Sister they were evacuated as well and to be quite honest I don’t really know where they went. I know now but I didn’t then. Because it was just like living a dream, it happened a long time ago and em. Anyway we em, what happened eh what actually, I can remember coming back to Jallen Street when they did the repairs and we moved back in.
IL. Was that during the War?
KA.Yeah, this was during the War 1943/44 and em, I left school actually when I was at Helmsley I was at Wombwell School,I was fourteen then I left school then. I remember the day I left school I went to work in an office a Colliery Office, Mitchell Main Colliery and I worked there, I was an Office Boy. Funnily enough I got on with the Agent who was the Managing Director,he was the Big White Chief. He took a shine to me funnily enough. He was a real, he was a pig actually to everybody else. You went down the Mine and they used to say Thornhills coming cause he used to have on his hat, instead of having just an ordinary lantern he used to have a beam so that when they were down the mine they could see when he was coming. Thornhills on his way, but you know, funnily enough he took a shine to me for some reason, I don’t know why. I had to go and get his sandwiches and take his briefcase to his car. I once took his bloody keys, he had a Jaguar, I once took his keys, I took his briefcase to his car, locked the car put the keys in my pocket, went home. Of course, he couldn’t get home, anyway I thought “what do I do”” I found the keys and thought “what do I do?” I could lie and tell him I left them on his desk or I could tell the truth. Anyway I thought “he knows,I know he knows.” Because what I did before he came in I put his keys on his desk you see. He said “where were my keys last night?” I said “in my pocket” He said “it’s a good job you said that because if you had said anything else you would have been through that door” “Now then” he said what’s you punishment?” I said, well I was only a lad, I was only fourteen, fourteen and a half something like that, I said “down to you” He had a big board he used to do his drawings on. He said “bend over that bench” Whack. He said “there you are forget it now” Later on he said “Would you like to go to Night School? I will pay your fees and your books, I will pay for everything and you take shorthand typing and book keeping” so I said “ok”and I went and I went to night school and I took this on.After that we left, I just left and I can’t remember leaving. Certain incidents that live in your mind, we had Mitchell Main, Dalfield Main, Dalfield Main was a subsidiary of Mitchell Main and the Manager at Dalfield Main, I don’t know. I knew him but I didn’t know anything about him. Anyway Thornhill said to me this day “I want you to take this letter to Mr what ever his name was and hand it to him personally, don’t give it to anyone else, give it to him personally.” So I thought “right” so I goes down, knocks on his door, his wife comes to the door, I say is “Mr so and so in?” “Oh he is still in bed” So I say “I’ve got to give him this letter personally” so she says “you had better come in then” So I handed it to him, it was his notice, it were unbelievable.
IL. Industrial relations would be.
KA. It were funny, I didn’t understand what was going on. But funnily he was squat thick set, he was a terror. People were frightened of him, really frightened of him and I wasn’t, I was in awe of him probably, but he didn’t frighten me. And em, he had a streak, I don’t know what it was, there was nothing funny about him ere m but he was. Anyway in the end my Mother came back to Hull and I followed her and I came back to Hull you see. This was during the war, they dropped the, when I was at home they dropped the bombs. That was my, but its six, it’s seventy years ago which is a long time to remember, but things do stick in your mind.
IL. Yes and I suppose its, I don’t know, most people don’t have much danger in their lives.
KA. To be quite honest I never thought of danger, it never bothered me. When I was on the farm there was a couple called Joe Wood and his wife was a reclusive. She wouldn’t answer the door to anyone, she wouldn’t go to the door. She was the kindest person you ever met and yet she wouldn’t talk to people, she used to, she used to call me Kenniff, Kenniff, but she was kindness itself. Both of them were but they were very insular people you know, never went into the village. I used to I, so I joined the choir, I was in the choir there actually and things like that.
IL. In Helmsley?
KA. Yes it was in Oswaldkirk, its next to Ampleforth, we used to go to Ampleforth School, not Ample, not College because when people say where were you educated, I say Ampleforth [laugh] which is, one was the village school, one was the top ranking, it were Roman Catholic College, yeah. We used to go there because we used to get an invite to go beagling from the College. We used to take the dogs out and go after hares and things like that. Oh no, it was a life, a secular life, I looked after myself I bought my own clothes, I did everything, I made. I used to catch rabbits, I’d sell them at the Market, Helmsley Market em, I used to make, I used to sell them, two for a shilling and probably about three or four pairs of rabbits and sell them. I used to buy Wellingtons, trousers things like that. You know I never saw any of my family at all, I was on my own and I have always been like that. I’ve been like that ever since, you get like that don’t you yeah, but it seems you know. Now my Father, the whole Family, my Brothers died, my eldest Sisters dead and my Brother above me died last year. He was in the Air Force he was in Bomber Command as well and there is em me. No then there is my younger Brother he died he was in the Military Police the Red Caps and there is only me left. My Sister who was the youngest Joan, there is only the two of us left out of six of us, you know. It’s sad really, I’ve had a charmed life actually [laugh] when you think about it, you know it’s em. But eh, but we, you see my Father, he never spoke about his childhood, he never spoke about his Mother and Father, he was brought up by his eh, eh, Grandma. His Grandma married three times. His Grandma married an alcoholic, he also married someone with a lot of money and somebody else I don’t know but he never spoke about it. We didn’t know eh, my Grandma Waddington she was filthy rich I’d say, she left a fortune. She left it to my sist my Father’s step Sister. Her Husband was the, the Daughter was the offshoot of the one she married. My Father got, we got a thousand pound when she died and my Grandma got thirty two thousand, eh aunty Nellie got thirty two thousand. You equate that seventy years ago it was about half a million quid, most probably more than that then. But, em I know we got, we got a thousand and I’ll never, we sat round the table and it came in white five pound notes, we got cash, white five pound notes in a rolls,with plastic bands on and we passed it round [laugh]. That’s when we bought Jallen Street, my Father bought Jallen Street, that was five hundred quid, the house was five hundred quid. Nice house as well, beautiful house. Eh you know my Fathers dead now and my Mothers dead. But em he was very em, very secular, he he he wouldn’t speak, he never spoke about his army career. He never told us what he did in the Air Force em. He never said anything you know, the only information I have is from the youngest Sister,‘cause Joan is the youngest. She was the Darling of the Family and my Father sort of doted on her a little bit more. I used to get my back side kicked [laugh] but he was, funnily enough towards the end of his life he did change. He changed eh, when I first, when my first Wife eh, we were married when I was twenty two and my first wife died when I was forty and eh I met Beryl and we have been married now forty odd years. But eh, Beryl and my Father got on like a house on fire. I think my Father was a little bit eh, a little bit upper class more than my Mother. My Mother was Hessle Road you might say and my Father was eh eh, he had a Class about him funny how he had a class about him eh, and you talk to him and he got on with Beryl very well, Beryl said he was an unreal chap. I remember him when he was a bloody old tyrant, you know. But this is it he had six kids, whither, I don’t know whither I don’t know if it was the marriage, if he was happy, I don’t think he was that happy to be quite honest. Eh my Mother went her own way and my Father went his own way and I just have a feeling em, that my Grandma Waddington was em em, she had two cars actually, the days nobody had cars and she had two. Two Rovers, and she used to come and visit us, not very often, we used, when she was good she used to, you know fox furs and all every thing else and flaunting, when she went out we used to stand there, she used to give us half a crown. I suppose it was alright in these days, no I eh eh you as I say my Father, he never. I’ve a feeling my Father I don’t know, was he illegitimate, there was something he never spoke about at all until his last, till he was about seventy, seventy five. Then he opened up to my Sister, yeah my younger Sister and she knows more about him than I do. The information I have I got it only from Joan. It’s funny. Anyway.
IL.A different generation.
KA. That’s our war you might say.
IL. Ok what about your Brother Harry then?
KA. Well Harry as I say he was called up straight away, in fact I’ve got the details here, I’ve got the photographs. We didn’t have photographs, we didn’t have cameras we weren’t allowed cameras in those days and em yes, John Henry Angus aged twenty, he was at RAF Waddington, he died 17th of the ninth, 1940 his service number was 751690 he was in 44 Squadron, em eh. He got three war medals, he got Aircrew Europe, War Medal and 1945. He was only in as I say he died in 1940, 1939 the war started in, he would only have been in the Service a year when he trained and was flying. He was shot down over Burcht just outside Antwerp and think he was bombing barges actually. They were building barges to invade in these days, the Operation Sea Lion. I think it was something like that, and they were building barges at Antwerp and I think that is what he was bombing. That is what I have heard, he was in a Hampden, MK1 Hampden a KM MK1 Hampden series number P2121. I got all this off the Internet. But that’s em, so basically he was only in the Air Force and he trained and he was Aircrew.
IT. What did he do, what was he in the aeroplane?
KA. He was eh, no then, I think he was a WOPAG, Wireless Operator Air Gunner. I’m not sure about that, I struggle with a Master Signaller. That was the Brother [garbled] he was in the war as well. When we were in Wombwell he went down the mines actually. He didn’t get, he didn’t get an option as soon as he was sixteen he went down the mines and he went down the mines for two years.Then when he came out the mines, when we came back to Hull. He couldn’t go down the mines then, he joined the Air Force and he was in the Air Force all his life he, he, started off, he was in Bomber Command and what I can gather he was bombing Germany. When the war finished he was on the Berlin Airlift, humping coal. He was flying coal backwards and forwards. He then went in, well when Bomber Command finished he went into Transport Command and then as I say he was on the Berlin Airlift. He has had a chequered career, fantastic career. He went to Australia when they set the Atom Bomb off he took the animals, took some of the monkeys out there when they exploded the Atom Bomb. He was in India when they petitioned Pakistan. He was flying people backwards and forwards, he was there for three years I think. Then he went to Cyprus, he was in Cyprus flying all over the place. Then he went to Benson where the Queens Flight was and he was on the Queens Flight he was eh, Master Signaller a [garbled] he was telling me they have offered me a Commission and I have worked it out I get more money being a Master Signaller than I do being a Flight Lieutenant. So he said I don’t want it I will stay as I am and he stayed as a Master Signaller right through his career. He actually, Oh then he went to Leuchars in Scotland he was on Helicopters. He was at Driffield on Thor Missiles when the Missile Base was there. What else did he do, oh he’s been to Sweden he’s been to America he’s been all over. Then when he came out of, when he retired, I mean this is going back, he was in the Air Force thirty odd years. When he retired he joined Dan Air, he went to Dan Air and Dan Air was taken over by British Airways. So when he was, when he, when he retired when he finished completely he got a pension from British Airways. He was stationed, actually it was, it was never, again. It just shows you how sick our family is, he had six children or five or six or five I think, I’ve never seen any of them because they were all born abroad. Two was born in Cyprus one was born in India I think it was. [garbled] peculiar life, well not a peculiar life, he was stationed at, well he was stationed at Abingdon and em, he stayed there. Well he was in the Air Force right until he retired out the Air Force and then he joined Dan Air.
IL. Was he in Abingdon during the War or was this subsequent to the War?
KA. No I don’t know where he was when he was actually bombing I don’t know. We weren’t really in contact with each other then. I know he was at Benson because when I came back to Hull, I went on to, I started driving, transport. I started of my career in transport I used to go there I used to go to Benson stay the night and I used to do London, I used to go to London backwards and forwards. So I used to go to Benson, stay there the night, go onto London and come back. Eh as I say, this is, this is when the Atom Bomb was exploded because he said, he said come on we will have a walk around the airfield and there were Viking’s of the Queens Flight, Valetta’s and Viking’s and he showed me one, went in one. There were steel cages in there and he said “what do you think those are for?” I said “I have no idea, prisoners, is it for carting prisoners” He said “no he said, I can’t tell you now because we are sworn to secrecy but you will read about it” and sure enough he took a load of monkeys out in this cage. So these are the things I remember you know and where else was he? Ah he was in Cyprus for three years and its em, Akrotiri I think it was em, where else? He was in the North West Frontier, he was in India for three years, he was at Karachi I think it was and em. It was, they were flying, cause in those days see, I didn’t understand what they were doing in India. I didn’t know that they were petitioning and the Muslims were going North and the Hindus were going south but he said there were a lot of people killed. He said there was a massacre, he said we were flying officials out. I remember he was on the front page of em, one of the big newspapers, new magazine, Tattler or something like that, showed him throwing rice out to the Indians, Hindus. He said, they used the front page and he said, that’s me, well you could see it was him. He said “I got a bollocking for that” I said “why” he said “because I didn’t have a belt on, I should have been strapped in and I was just slinging these bags out” [laugh]. He has had a terrific career, he was on the Berlin Air Lift I said “ what were you doing there” he said “ we were humping coal and we had three minutes to land, unload and take off again. If you missed the slot you had to go round with a full load. You couldn’t, if for some reason you were late or something you had to take his load back, fly round and then come back again” He said, because there were God knows how many aircraft, well they brought everything into Berlin. He was on coal actually I said “did you hump coal then?” he said “No”
IL. Well he had his previous training didn’t he?
KA. Then he was in, they had a little sideline going that was it, they used to take coffee into Berlin then used to go somewhere just outside Berlin and buy ornaments, glassware take the glassware back. Take the coffee there, do a bit of training. He was on Dakota’s actually at that time he was on a Dakota. He said, he said funny thing is the one he was on he said “ we only had to whistle and the floor boards jumped”[laugh] No he has, yes he is very unassuming you know. No he has had a terrific life.
IL. So do you know anything about his Second World War Service, did he complete a tour or ?
KA. I don’t know all I can say I know when he was bombing Berlin he said “we used to take off, circle round gain height, join a Squadron” and then he said “we used to fly over, when we got over the Channel when we got into France you could actually see the glow of Berlin burning” he said “when you were flying over, as soon as you got over Berlin you plane just Woof! The air currents, the hot air current coming up used to lift your plane up” he said “we used to drop the bloody bombs and scarper” He never really eh never, never bragged about anything I mean. I said “did you ever fly any of the Royal Family?” he said “well we used to fly” he never flew the Queen,he never flew the Duke of Edinburgh. He said “we used to fly a lot of officials, next to you know, next to the Queen. They used to use the Queens Flight for all sorts of things actually. I said “did you ever fly the Queen” he said “no, no” em but he never really said anything, he said em. you know only through away questions you might say. But em you know. He said “when we were in India, these bloody Afghans, we used to fly over Afghanistan the Afghans then had these pop guns, these blunder buses. We used to fly in low, you know go in to the North” and he said “they’d be there with these guns firing at us they didn’t have a cat in hells chance of hitting us” but you know he is. That was Cyril but he died last year, his wife had died quite a few years ago, she was a real nice girl but she died of Cancer, all these things.
IL Just coming back to Harry then, have you been over to,did?
KA. No
IL. Do you have a grave in Antwerp?
KA. I have a photograph of it.
IL We’ll take some photographs.
KA. I keep saying I’ll go, we’ve been, since we’ve been married and that we’ve been everywhere and its Antwerp is one place I’ve never been. I keep saying you know we ought to go we ought to go. I’ve been to the Somme, the World War Battlefields, I’ve been to Normandy as well, Dun, you know where they invaded in the last war, the last war yeah. No it’s a place, I keep say, you know. It’s too late now to be quite honest. He’s buried with the other, there were five crew,they are all buried together apparently. I’ve got a photograph of the grave my Mother was. I am really doing this for my Mother, I hope you feel that maybe I was a bit outside looking in. I was in business, you know what business is like you are working eight, seven days a week twenty four hours a day virtually, you know. Bit em, sometimes we did all right I mean eh, funny I had a good job. I worked for George Halton at one time and em I was there five years. I knew Dick Halton, the Managing Director in fact it is his son in law who got me the job there. I was friendly with Frank Briar, he was the. Well it was actually Frank’s wife Sister, Dicks, I don’t know, there is some relation anyway. He was a real nice guy he’s dead now In fact his son now is in [unreadable] his son has taken the business over and eh, do you, do you know?
IL. I know that some of the Children were at school with my kids, my kids were at Highmers and I know the name and I would have met them at certain.
KA. This would have been the generation before them.
IL Absolutely as I say the next generation would be at school with my kids.
KA. Dicks son was only a boy when I was working for Halton’s. There were three of them Dick, George and Peter. Peter and Dick were the main stay of Halton’s. George was too much and you very rarely saw him. Dick I knew very well actually in fact he said to me when I told him I was leaving and going on me own he said “if it doesn’t go right, come back but I hope it does” Well it, the trouble is when you start on your own you can’t fail, you just can’t fail you’ve got to put the hours to do this you’ve got to do that.
IL Yeah.
KA.I don’t know, we did all right. I’ve been retired now for twenty four years now. As I say we had the Garage at Anlaby, one of the Garages in Anlaby it’s a tyre place now its opposite, used to be Jacksons and then it went into a Supermarket.
IL Yes I know exactly where it is.
KA. We took it over, it was called Someleys actually, Gordon and Roy Someley, eh they owned the old. His Father was a Blacksmiths there in Anlaby in the days of Blacksmiths and eh, Roy sold out and Mogel bought it and I took it over. It was state of the art, when it was built it was state of the art. I’ve got photographs of it. We had state of the art pumps and all sorts. I mean now they are old fashioned but in these days they were really, really something you know. No I was there about thirty odd years I think. I had another garage, I had two down Sutton Road as well. One is still there funnily enough, one of them, you know where the new, the bridge, you remember the old bridge?
IL. I don’t, I don’t know that part of Hull that well.
KA. Well it used to be a real narrow, narrow iron bridge, if two cars went across you couldn’t get across. Anyway they have taken it away and put a huge bridge there. Right on the corner there is a big roundabout there now, right on the corner there is a garage there now, well I had that one as well. But no I mean things have changed a lot [laugh] But as I say Harry I don’t know, it was actually a friend of mine that told me about this and eh, she’s got two cousins that are flyers as well and they got the, she gave me the information. In fact she gave me the information, this is em. Because I didn’t know anything about it and its em eh. No this was just the two people I had to get in touch with, Peter Jones and Helen Durham.
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Interview with Kenneth Angus
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Ian Locker
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2016-06-08
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00:42:24 audio recording
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AAngusK160608
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Pending review
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Sound
Description
An account of the resource
Kenneth Angus lived in Hull, and was 12 when war was declared. He discusses life on a farm after being evacuated, the bombing of Hull and his brother Harry Angus, who was killed flying as a wireless operator / air gunner with 44 Squadron from RAF Waddington.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Hugh Donnelly
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Civilian
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--Hull
Temporal Coverage
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1939
1940
1943
1945
44 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
childhood in wartime
evacuation
Hampden
He 111
home front
incendiary device
killed in action
RAF Cranwell
RAF Waddington
Spitfire
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/44/6645/ABarfootWE151208.2.mp3
1b5f298e0d48f0992512af90412e5b70
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Title
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Barfoot, William
William Barfoot
W Barfoot
W E Barfoot
William E Barfoot
Description
An account of the resource
56 items. An oral history interview with William Ernest Barfoot (915770, 141457 Royal Air Force), and photographs of him school in India, during training and on operations with 296 Squadron. They include images of Albemarle and Halifax glider tugs, Horsa gliders, landing zones, and his wedding photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Nigel Barfoot and catalogued by Terry Hancock.
Date
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2015-12-08
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Barfoot, W
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IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB. My name is Chris Brockbank and I am with Squadron Leader William Barfoot and we are in Birmingham talking about his very varied experiences in the war. Bill would you like to start off with your early days, where you were born where you were schooled.
WB. I was born in Newcastle upon Tyne so I’m a Geordie, but I was taken to India when I was about six, five or six and I didn’t come back to just before the war. In India I went to that school the Laurence Memorial Royal Military School now called the Laurence School. It em its a military school in that you couldn’t go to the school unless you had been in the British Army or the British Navy, the Air Force wasn’t in great shape at that time, and your parents had to be one of those two. And then er I just had a secondary school education, I left school in 1936 and I went to Bombay University because the intention was to send me to either Oxford or Cambridge, both required Latin in those days and I hadn’t done Latin and I hadn’t done Latin because we done localised languages like Undra. So I went to the University to learn Latin and then eh, differences arose in the family of the financing of the thing so I left India altogether and eh came back to this country, when I came back to this country we [garbled] and so on. As a side line I was invited to stay at some Barracks in Woking, I forget the name of the Barracks now with the Father of two daughters, I eventually married one of them. [laugh]. I was twenty and seventeen, I actually met them in India before I came here, but they were in school and I was at a different school, so we didn’t really get to know each other until I came back to this country and I was seventeen. I was twenty and she was seventeen so that was a dangerous situation. I then got married and later on during the war, it’s the only dish. Incidentally I can’t give dates because we have lost the vital documents that would have given us this information, namely the flying log book and we have moved about four times after I left the Air Force and somewhere it has got lost. At least we haven’t found it yet, this is the point. So I can’t give you dates but I can tell you places I went to. I started off with, oh, I applied for a short service commission and I was accepted but then hostilities broke out. I then got a letter that cancelled the short service commission, so I then joined the Air Force as an Airman at a place I can’t remember now in London. We didn’t do much there except possibly square bashing, we were issued with uniforms and the usual sort of things, and the one, the one point when there, we were all given ten shillings in advance to buy blanco and shoe polish and what have you and it so happened that almost the same week there was a pay parade and we of course had to attend because discipline required it. There, there was a chap called Manning, that’s right. Puffy Manning we called him because he was a bit plump. The drill was of course, the Accounting Officer he would sit at the table and he would have an accounting Airman there. The Airman would call out your name and you would actually, this was the last three numbers of your name, walk up to the desk, salute and collect the money. Well Puffy Manning did all this correctly and the Clerk read out two shillings and sixpence. The Accounting Officer put a half crown on the thing. Puffy Manning tossed it up in the air and it bounced off the table and Puffy Manning said “buy yourself a cigar Sir.” Apparently the Station Warrant Officer nearly fainted and he said “arrest that man” and of course he was taken away to the Guard Room. He was very lucky because his Flight Commander was quite sympathetic and let him off with a caution. So anyway that’s what happened at that place which I can’t remember now. Em after that, where did I go then? Oh went to,” Nigel what’s the name of that place where we came in?”
Nigel “Kidderminster”
WB. Kidderminster, yes where there was a [unreadable] where we did one, to the front salute and all that sort of stuff, sort of bashing. After that I was taken to an airfield called Hullavington which was near Chippenham and over there, it was at the time when there was a fear of German invasion you know Dunkirk was just over. We were issued with obsolescent Canadian rifles and five rounds of ammunition to deal with the invasion of the Germans. Eh, Eh one night an old German aircraft flew over the airfield and scattered a few bombs on the airfield. We then said this is it you know, this is the invasion. So we all rushed out to our appointed positions but then it all went quiet and nothing happened. We stayed there for about two hours and suddenly there was a shot and the Orderly Officer went to see what it was all about. The airman said “I saw a movement down there and challenged him three times, he didn’t answer, so I shot.” He shot a horse, the Farmer was exactly delighted the next day. Anyway that’s what happened at Hullavington.
I worked in the cookhouse funnily enough there and eh [garbled] a parade a [unreadable] parade. I worked in the cookhouse and we were excused the parade. We used to all stand there and present arms with a broom and sing here comes the Air Vice Marshall he’s got lots and lots of rings but only got one arsehole.[laugh] Anyway from there, from Hullavington I then went to Yatesbury eh, and Compton Bassett, both close together and where I trained as a Wireless Operator eh. I was, we flew in Dragons I think or whatever they were called.
CB. Dragon Rapide
WB. That’s right Dragon Rapide, for practice at sending messages and receiving messages on the flight. I don’t know how long the course lasted but it was quite long. I learnt morse, its abolished now, but I tell you what, my morse code. Everybody who learns morse never forgets it and I got up to about twenty two words a minute which was quite good at that time. After Yatesbury and Compton Bassett I then was posted to Digby to Number 46 Squadron, Hurricanes as a Wireless Operator. We did sort of servicing on the Aircraft. The Squadron was then moved down to eh, forgot the name of the place to eh, Sherburn in Elmet which is in Yorkshire. My Squadron moved down there and shortly afterwards they eh, were detailed to go out to the Middle East. I was held back because I had volunteered for Aircrew. I told the admin staff and the next thing was to go down to London to ACRC which we called arsey tarsey of course. You get a written examination, virtually all maths and eh after that I was sent to Downing College in Cambridge where we did our initial training, were we learned the various fundamentals of the various activities in the Air Force. After Cambridge, after that eh, oh my next movement was to the EANS or Elementary Air Navigation School at a place near Brighton. Town near Brighton.
Prompt. Where at Eastbourne.
WB. At Eastbourne, we occupied the Eastbourne Grammar School and eh and that’s where we learned the very early functions of Navigation. After that, which place did I go from there? Oh yes I think it was called Heaton or High Heaton or something like that, it was the holding place for people travelling abroad. And so ah, I was put aboard an aircraft, I have forgotten the name of the ship, they were all Castle ships, something Castle you know and eh. We sailed first to Brazil of all places eh where we went ashore and were made very welcome and eh we crossed over to Capetown and eh we got off at Capetown and went by rail to a place called Grahamstown which is the sort of University town of South Africa where we were made very welcome because most of the people there were of British origin, so we had a lovely time there. Then we began to train Navigation seriously, flying in Ansons with South African Pilots and I forgot how long the course took. I think it took quite a time about six months, I could be wrong eh. I was then Commissioned as a Pilot Officer and we went to another ship of course to cross the Atlantic with the Italian prisoners of war. We put them out in New York and filled the, and filled the boat or ship with American soldiers to come back to the UK. Funnily enough I remember it was the time the Dambusters broke the Dams and the New York papers were full of it and they made a great fuss of us did the Americans. I remember two of them, when I was with a friend and someone stopping me to give me theatre tickets to go in. Incidentally the pound was worth four dollars in those days so it was quite expensive. Anyway we then sailed back to UK I think we went to Greenock I think, I can’t really remember we were given two, two weeks holiday on leave, eh. That’s when I went to, the only days I can remember for that period is the 27th of May Nineteen fift, Nineteen forty three which is of course the date I got married. I subsequently lived with her for sixty nine and a half years and then she died. Then we went back and went to Wigtown which is in Scotland, that was an advanced flying unit we flew in Ansons and then we went to Kinloss. When we went to Kinloss the funny thing that happened we were just turned into a room, a crowd of people, most of whom were Sergeants and told to form Crew em. Inevitably because there were more Sergeants than anything else I ended up in a Crew where I was the only Officer the rest were all Sergeants. We then had a mixed period which I forget. I remember an airfield and a road travelling through it, I can’t remember what the name of the airfield was. And we very shortly found out why we were sent on various courses. I was sent on a Gee course, Gee was then the, the very sensational Navigation Aid. The first time we had anything that was anything like accurate you know sort of like Astro Navigation you were jolly lucky to get ten miles from your accurate position. Where as with Gee you got right to the spot and it was absolutely sensational. The other thing I did during that period I did a map reading course in Tiger Moths at Worcester Race Course and just flew around, very happy times. I got on very well with the Pilot had a go of flying the Tiger Moth but we were all over the place.
The reason being off course, we were being held back for 296 Squadron, which had, was returning from the Middle East and. We were held back because we were going to reinforce them and they were, where were they? Earls Colne that where they reformed. I was made the Squadron Navigation Officer because we only had two Officers amongst the Navigators and This is where we went with Albemarle’s for the first time, we never heard of Albemarle’s before, it was the only aircraft in the RAF that had a tricycle undercarriage and therefore very suitable for glider towing. You know the glider goes off first and then you go off and, and eh we started operating from there [Garbled]. We later moved to Brize Norton and Brize Norton became our permanent base. But we flew from Earls Colne for quite a while. We spent time reinforcing French Resistance Groups but obviously it was a slow process because you had to organise the Group. They also did Norway as well in the Albemarles. The Albemarle was a very bad aircraft for the Navigator because they had forgotten that they needed a Navigator. It had switches all over the place, down there, up there later on when we converted to Halifax’s it was absolute luxury to have all these instruments in front of you. But eh, eh, anyway we flew surprise Resistance Groups, they didn’t come too often because, obviously I had to organise the Groups carefully because the Gestapo were on the lookout all the time. We used to fly round about six thousand feet and then we would have to find the Resistance Group which usually had four torches in a field in the form of an arrow and the bottom line of the arrow would flash a code, Morse code, which we had been given. When we saw that we dropped down to about five hundred feet and dropped the supplies and flew on so the Gestapo didn’t see, the whereas, dropped there and turning away and that’s what we did. We did one or two in Norway as well but Norway was a bit frightening because it was a bit mountainous compared with France.
The other thing was our other function on Special Operations was towing of gliders. It was obvious there was going to be a big glider operation and they needed these Crews trained. The trouble with the, with towing gliders is A. Your speed drops, you get down to Anson speeds and secondly you can’t manoeuvre because you have a glider full of Troops behind you. So when we went on and we did the first one was D day, when you went on these Operations you had a very hairy Fighter Escort. You needed it because you were very vulnerable funnily enough we didn’t lose many because by then we had complete Air Superiority and eh you didn’t get too much interference. We did two other glider operations, one was at Arnhem in Holland and that was a disaster. Not from the air point of view we dropped them all in the right place at the right time. The thing was the Intelligence had not discovered there was a German Armoured Division in Holland and of course our Troops who were Airborne Troops were comparatively lightly armed of course they suffered very heavy casualties and eh. They were supposed to capture the Bridge at Nijmegen so the Second Army I think it was could proceed on and race towards Berlin, but they never got the Bridge of course. As I have said they had very heavy casualties and eh, that was that.
The third operation that we had with gliders was eh, Rhine crossing and we were getting near the end of the war there and eh, the eh, Germans put some of the Troops, in the woods resting from Operations, not too far away and eh so we were detailed for the first time ever to carry bombs. Bye the way we now had converted to Halifax’s for the [unreadable]. We had Albemarle’s for the other two eh, for the Rhine crossing we had Halifax’s which were much better. All your equipment from the Navigator point of view, direct compass everything, everything, APR all the lot was in the one compartment. You could see it all in front of you where as in the Albemarle you were doing this sort of thing. The other advantage of the Halifax, I sat on the escape hole but we didn’t need to use it. We did in fact loose our Rear Gunner, but that was not our aircraft. His friend had a girlfriend in the local village and he had a date with her that night so Jimmy Osall who was our Rear Gunner offered to stand in for him, instead of him, never came back. After that more or less the war was beginning to end then we flew eh, incidentally we did convert to Stirling’s before we went to Halifax’s but fortunately we never used the Stirling. Something I didn’t mention when I spoke about Kinloss, we flew Whitley’s there and, and, it was known as the flying coffin of course and it was a very slow aircraft, only had two engines , it was supposed to be a bomber. We did cross country flying but they didn’t risk sending us on Operations in them because we would never have come back.
Anyway we then flew VIPs, from,who fled to England during the Invasion by and large VIPs we flew them to Oslo. We also flew eh, Concentration Camp survivors to Greece, we did two of those and I think that was the end of the war and I was then posted to, oh yes I was posted to Staff Navigator Course after the war ended and eh and I was posted to when I had done the course, I done that at Shawbury by the way. When I done that course I was, I was em where was I then, oh yes I went to join 242 Squadron it was a Transport Squadron flying to the Far East. Eh, we were stationed at Oakington in Cambridge. Then we were moved to a place near Christchurch, Mosley, Mousley something like that Moseley which upset my Wife quite much because she got really settled in Cambridge and rather liked it and so did I. So I got onto the Navigation Boss, where was he? I have forgotten where he was and I said I wanted to go back to Cambridge. So eh ah they managed to sort it out, so I left 242 Squadron and went back to Cambridge, this time to Waterbeach which was also a Cambridge airfield, or was. Then vacancies were coming up the Air Force was running short, we hadn’t got a third category of Navigator, a specialist Navigator and a specialist Navigator was supposed to liaise with Scientists on possible uses for Navigation purposes. Em so I went on that course, also to Shawbury, Shawbury[unreadable] Empire Navigation School. Was then the central Navigation School for Navigation purposes and that’s where I went for the and then after that I was posted to er, where was it, near Darlington.
Interruption. Middleton St George.
WB. Middleton St George, yes Middleton St George where I was teaching Navigation to Bomb Aimers who had converted to Navigators em and eh. Then after that I then ended up to, to em oh that incidentally is when Nigel was born. I went to, we went to Ceylon where we were stationed at Degummed airfield. Em [unreadable] nothing there and then after about a year in Ceylon I was posted to Singapore and eh in Singapore, I was promoted to Squadron Leader then. I became Airhead Forces Malaya Navigation Representative and eh and advised them on Navigation. What did we do, I did do .The Korean War was on at the same time and some of our aircraft in Malaya were taking part in the war, mostly Flying Boats that were patrolling the seas around Korea. They were having trouble with the long range Navigation aid that the Americans had invented [unreadable] to Gee. They were having trouble with it, so I was sent via Hong Kong out in another Flying Boat to see if they could correct it which I succeeded to do and I flew on ops in Korea in the Flying Boat. And also at the same time we got a Typhoon, or what are the local thingies called, probably call a Tsunami now, which badly damaged one of the Flying Boats. So I got signal back from HQ Malaya to investigate the damage to this Flying Boat. I then came back to the UK, I then came back to Singapore and that’s when I came to the UK.
Then I went to the Air Ministry for about a year and then I was posted to Castle Bromwich as Station Commander. I em, we still had several lodger units there. 7 Police District, an ATC unit and Army AOP Flight, 2605 Fighter Control eh Fighter Exercise. We had several aircraft Austers and AOP Flight I forget what they flew, gliders for the ATC, University Air Squadron, Chipmunk, they were on our eh, my airfield and I think that was about it, the lot of them. Eh after that I was posted, I oh, I did two years or we did two years at Castle Bromwich where we did Battle of Britain Displays each and we were eh, highest in the Country. I don’t know if it was because the people of Birmingham were very generous. I think part of it was that we had the British Industries Fair at the side. We done quite well out of that I should think we charged them a pound for parking there eh that pushed up the Benevolent fund and we did quite well out of it I should think.
Then I got my last posting which was to run the Staff Navigation Course at Shawbury. So I had three goes at Shawbury. I liked Shawbury it was one of my favourite airfields and then I left the Air Force. And and Then I went over to BMC as the em Career and eh ah as the representative to the Caribbean that was [laugh] that was a treat. It was just after, we were still on rations in this country and to go there on one of the Islands and order a steak and get something about that big, it was quite an experience. Anyway from then on of course I was in Civvy Street. So I eh finished up doing Management Training in eh training. I was an expert in a technique called [unreadable] which was problem solving and decision making and eh, “what was the other course?” [little confused] “my minds going” [pause].
Nigel? “Transaction Analysis.”
CB. Transaction Analysis yes.
CB. We’ll have a break now.
WB. Yeah. I carried on teaching at, it wasn’t BMC any longer or Leyland as it had been called. But I did several courses for er for the Systems which eventually became, eventually became Unipart didn’t it? I ran a few courses and then no more and lapsed into old age.
CB. What age did you retire?
WB. Sixty five I retired but I still continued to go back to run the odd course. I’d just got paid a fee. That’s about it.[pause]
CB. You ok?
[Possibly a break in the recording]
WB. Its called Decca
CB. We are just talking about Gee and the fact that the Germans jammed it, but you could tell they were jamming it. How did that show on the screen?
WB. The screen went all like that eh eh.
CB. What was the next system?
WB. It was, well Bomber Command resorted to Pathfinders where they used Mosquitoes with things like H2S and eh and other eh quite a lot of stuff that the Mosquitoes carried and they marked the target with em.
CB. With coloured flares ?
WB. With coloured flares, yes and they presumably new the colours beforehand so the Germans could not mark, put these things into operation.
CB. So after, you said there was a different system after Gee, what sort.
WB. Decca
CB. How did that work.
WB. It was similar to Gee, it was very, Gee had a very short range compared with the other things. Decca had a better range, the thing about Decca was that it could be made to give you the wrong information without you realising it. In other words it was possible for the enemy or the Germans if you like to make the Decca instrument read something else and you would not know.
CB. And that’s what they did?
WB. The RAF refused to have anything to with it. They did Air Commodore Death, he was flying over the North Pole they did use Decca for that occasion. But then of course the war was long over, but they wouldn’t touch it as a eh eh Navigational Instrument. In fact now they don’t even have Navigators so never mind eh. Now they have all these Satellites and Computers and what have you and Laser Beams. They don’t need Navigators, they don’t need Wireless Operators either, there is no need for Morse. I eh as far as I know the Tornado isn’t eh doesn’t carry defensive guns as far as I know.
CB. Can we go back to when you were doing your Flying Training in South Africa.
WB. Yes.
CB. So you done Ground School already in the UK, what did you do in your Training in South Africa?
WB. Flew in Ansons all over the, all over South Africa and,
CB. So what were the exercises that you did ?
WB. Normal Navigation, cross country ones, but we did not have much in the way of Navigation Aids you know. You could, you could get beams from wireless beams but they weren’t particularly accurate and certainly astro was bloody awful. I mean you were very lucky[laugh] to be within twelve miles of where you really were.
CB. Why was that, was it because it took so long or it was difficult to see?
WB. No the sextant was a bottle sextant which moves about of course and you had to go for a whole, yet, have very accurate watch, for a minute do a, and then you averaged it out eh well cause you, you, used to have a song about eh “The bubble goes right and something goes left” I can’t remember.
CB. So in practical terms, in practical terms you were taking three fixes to get each.
WB. No, three position lines.
CB. Three position lines.
WB. To get a fix, but you very often found the position lines didn’t bear any relation to each other. Astro, to be honest I never used Astro except practicing on the ground. I never used it for Flying. No never. We once got em, in a Halifax, we once got struck by lightning and all the magnetical things all went hay wire so we had to come back on Gee [laugh] and eh and the Astro compass yeah. There was a lovely story when, Death, Air Commodore Death was flying round the North Pole. You have a problem with the North Pole because whatever way you go you go South, so they had to use Grid Navigation. But Anyway they landed at some place or other and er and Airman or somebody or maybe an NCO was taking, allocating rooms in the Mess and eh said “AC Death” and he said to the Air Commodore “AC1 or 2?” and the Air Commodore said “Air Commodore actually” and the chap said “that will be the day.”
CB. These anecdotes are very good. So just going back to the Flying Training. How long were you doing that, you were flying daylight but you sometimes flew at night didn’t you, in South Africa?
WB. No in South Africa we never flew at night, I can never remember flying at night but we flew all the time. We did a lot of flying in Anson’s and of course we did a lot of theoretical work. I remember we used to make fun of their accent, the South African accent especially when they were talking about the guns the rear guns. And talking about the Hood, they used to say Hoood. We used to say to him how goo get us the Hoood. [laugh]
CB. But they took it in good stead.
WB. Oh yes, we used to get on very well with the South Africans they were quite pleasant of course they were in the war.
CB. At what point were you awarded your flying brevet?
WB. Oh immediately we finished the course in South Africa. I remember I could you, eh, I had to buy them in the local shop, you had to get your first uniform made there but there were no Navigator half moons, half wings. They were the old “O”
CB. So you were the Observer.
WB. That’s why when we got married I was wearing the “O”
CB. Did you then convert to Navigator or did you have the Observer brevet?
WB. I changed to Navigator because I thought it sounded much better and more prestige than Observer. Totally after that I changed to Navigator brevet. Of course that doesn’t exist now, well it does in theory.
CB. Right, different. So as an Observer you didn’t just do Navigation, what else did you do? Because you done Air Bombing.
WB. No we had a Bomb Aimer who did that, I tell you what we used to introduce ourselves to the soldiers that we were carrying in the Gliders and we all had our names here. It was all very well oh when I went bye or a Pilot went by they always looked with natural horror, his name was Coffin [laugh] yeah.
CB. On the Albemarle, the Armstrong Whitworth Albemarle was a fairly rare aeroplane?
WB. I think five or six hundred were made and about two hundred of them were sent to Russia. Yes I wouldn’t say it was the best aeroplane to fly particularly from the Navigators point of view, you had no room, your table, your navigation table was folded over your lap. And eh when we went to the Halifax they had a proper laid out table and everything was marvellous, ah God.
CB. So flying the Albemarle what were you doing, were you dropping supplies to the Macys or the Resistance in General, how did the Operation go?
WB. We were particularly successful in fact my Pilot, as usual in the Air Force the Pilot was the one who usually got decorated because eventually the effect. The fable was you decorated the whole crew by giving the Pilot the DFC or whatever or DSO. Then we changed you know, when in the Air Force we changed every two years, so after about two years’ time you had no recognition saying you were a Navigator or whatever or Wireless Operator. The only person who had any recognition was the Pilot. Very few Navigators eh most of the Navigators who got mostly decorated were mainly Pathfinders ones. Eh not many, occasionally when something happened perhaps they got the odd DFC. Bye and large the Pilots always got the Gong which we thought was unfair. The other thing we thought was unfair was when the Canadians came over the Canadian Navigators had double wings eh so we thought we ought of have double wings. So would you believe it the Air Ministry decided to put it to the vote of Aircrew em as to whether they wanted the double wings. Of course there were far more Pilots than ever was Navigators. So of course they voted against it, so of course we never did get the double wings. But the Canadians had it and the Americans did too. The Americans had the double wings but eh, but eh.
CB. Can you talk us through an Operation when you are supplying the Macys?
WB. Well eh yeah, you were given a very short interval in which to drop, about five minutes, you weren’t allowed any more than five minutes because that would give away the position of the Macys. So you eh ah the Navigational had to be very accurate. If you didn’t make contact in the field in the time given you had to return to Base em with the material. As I said you had three lights, three torches that’s all they were. Three there and one at the side, with the one at the side like a nail formation and that one there would be flashing a code number which we had been given beforehand. And eh when the ere when the eh, the thing that annoyed me my Pilot got the same decoration as I got last week, this French decoration He got his during the war or just to the end of the war [unreadable] but the thing was he only did what he was told. I mean you gave him the Flight you gave him the Course the Height to fly at, the eh Airspeed. You kept changing the airspeed so that you arrived at the correct time because as I say you only had a short time to deliver the [unreadable]. When we eh when we spotted the lights, the Bomb Aimer would be in position, we would drop height down to about five hundred feet and drop the supplies and back. We normally flew at about six thousand, six or seven thousand but I tell you what as the Navigator I always gave the Pilot a thousand feet to much if you eh if the high ground was seven thousand feet I always gave him eight thousand to fly. I was all eh we lost a couple of aircraft in Norway because of this, well they didn’t put a safety margin on the flight.
CB. How difficulty was to find this Target, on your own that is, it is not with any other aircraft.
WB. Very difficult, we once got chased by a Fighter but he eh um he didn’t shoot. We did a Corkscrew, we were at our proper height then. The beauty, the reason that we dropped down to five hundred feet, the Fighters couldn’t fly underneath you [laugh] they would fly into the ground if they did. But eh but we never did, never had a Fighter contact at the time we were dropping, it was always clear and eh as I say eh you had a fifty, fifty chance of finding them, you only had, you were out of range of Gee. The Pathfinders of course had many other aids other than Gee. I mean they had bending beams and things and cross beams that were active when they were over the target. All the Navigators that I met who were well decorated were Pathfinder ones. Oh apart from the, there was the odd one from the eh, Dambusters.
CB. Oh Yeah. When you eh were looking for the sight of the Dropping Zone did they tend to be in wooded areas or were they in open fields or where were they.
WB. It would depend on what part of France it was, if it was the unoccupied part it would tend to be open ground. If it was the occupied part eh, we would look for some sort of cover if you could get it yeah em, but em.
CB. How many passes could you do?
WB. Oh we were only allowed one.
CB. Only one ?
WB. Yeah, because you didn’t have time to do any others. The Resistance Group would hear the aircraft coming and they would put on their torches, immediately we saw the torches we would drop and eh to supply them. We used to supply them with generally stuff to sabotage and so on to blow up railway lines and bridges. The idea was, they didn’t operate, or not very much until D Day and then they started mining all the things to delay any German reinforcements.
CB. And eh the Bomb Aimer was the person responsible for dropping, so there were static lines attached to the stores. How were they dropped, with a parachute?
WB. No they were more or less dropped as [unreadable] they were wrapped up, they weren’t on parachutes.
CB. They weren’t.
WB. No.
CB. Did you ever drop supplies by parachute?
WB. No but eh the night before D Day, 296 Squadron, I wasn’t on that 296 Squadron dropped parachutes, parachute Troops to seize a bridge, I forget the name of it but it is very famous, the Bridge.
CB. So on D Day what was your task?
WB. Our task was to drop the er Paratroops, the Gliders we dropped those behind the lines.
CB. Was this in daylight or at night?
WB. In daylight, the one that captured the bridge were dropped by parachute, that was night. It was the night before D Day but em. On D Day I remember the whole blinking sea seemed to be full of ships. I just couldn’t believe it and we flew over them. We were then stationed at Brize Norton which is now quite a famous airfield.
CB. When you were towing gliders, what height are you flying?
WB. Eh, I can’t remember exactly but I think about two to three thousand.
CB. What speed were you able to make?
WB. [laugh] Anson speed about a hundred em hundred and twenty perhaps, if you were lucky, sometimes slower than that.
CB. Because the speed is governed by what the Glider can do.
WB. Yes, well you just tow the glider along and the glider has control whither he has the release, not the Tug as we were called, we didn’t. We usually spoke to them before they were released to say good luck and what have you.
CB. So as well as the rope, it was a rope that tied you to the glider.
WB. I mean we dropped that, we were usually given a dropping zone for that.
CB. Back in Britain?
WB. No, by the Target, yes because we didn’t want to fly with a rope, [laugh] spare rope behind us. Yeah we, I think on D Day 296 Squadron we lost one aircraft.
CB. So how many other glider trips did you take for the Invasion?
WB. The Invasion, the Invasion only the one they did we, er there were other Squadrons, there was 297 doing the same sort of thing, they were stationed at Harwell. We had Halifax’s, 38 Group were equipped with the first Halifax’s, we didn’t have them but they were in the group they were used. Funnily enough eh they towed a different glider. We towed a Horsa which carried troops. They towed a thing called a, “what was it called?” Hamilcar, yes that’s it.
CB. That had guns in it?
WB. That carried a small tank and of course the small tank was no match for the German Armoured Division, no. That that was Montgomery’s idea apparently [unreadable] Eisenhower and it was a disaster. Only because they didn’t know, they would never have sent them had they knew there was a German Armoured Division there.
CB. Are we talking about Arnhem now or are we talking about Normandy landings, you were just taking troops?
WB. Normandy landings we just flew over the top we got em the. I think some parachutists were dropped, their purpose was to try to immobilise the guns. I think that is what the Americans unfortunately dropped their parachutists in the wrong place or too far away and they suffered terrible casualties, compared with the British and Canadians. But it is so old now seventy five years or whatever.
CB. Long time.
WB. It is a long time, in fact I’m surprised, I suppose it’s the role played that I remember so much. I wouldn’t have thought at ninety six to remember as much as I do remember, but I don’t remember all of it.
CB. So when you were towing the glider, were you the lead Navigator yourself?
WB. No each aircraft had its own Navigator. The Americans had a lead Navigator scheme but I think they gave that up after a while, because if you got the Leader shot down you were in trouble to a certain extent.
CB. You were the Squadron Navigation Officer weren’t you?
WB. Yes I was Squadron Navigation Officer then Station Navigation Officer then HQ Malaya Navigation.
CB. Over a period of years?
WB. Oh I loved Singapore was lovely, that was a posting that.
CB. But in that case you gave up towing gliders at the end of the war.
WB. Oh yes, gliders were never used again. They were very expensive the er em. The Germans invaded Crete with parachutists and they made the mistake of parachuting the ammunition separately [laugh] and eh the British Tommies had a Hell of a time for a while until the Germans were able to reinforce and eh eh, funny.
CB. OK we will stop there for a bit.
CB. So Bill what was the most memorable thing that you did, do you think?
WB. The most memorable thing was the Ground Crew of 296 decided to hold a raffle or call it what you like, that sort of thing. They collected money from all of the Ground Crew and decided they would award the money to the first aircraft to make touch down. We were first and eh our Ground Crew goes cheering to the roof you know because they would collect the money. Some Ground Crew serviced more aircraft, I don’t know what arrangements they had for that. We taxied back to the dispersal with cheers and whoops and what have you. We were then at Brize Norton.
When we went to. I didn’t mention, when we went to Arnhem we flew to Manston and, and in order to get closer to the Target because Albemarle’s hadn’t the range of the Halifax. So we flew down there, but the thing that I remember was that there were Americans at Manston and eh our first Meteors had appeared and they couldn’t understand how these aircraft were flying without propellers [laugh].
CB. Meteor Jets yes.
WB. Yes
CB. What was the level of loss on the Squadron, how many aircraft were lost?
WB. I don’t know off hand.
CB. Was it a regular occurrence?
WB. No not, the sort of Operation we were doing supplying the Resistance Group, it didn’t pay the German Air Force to go chasing after one er aircraft, so by in large we were never attacked. Although there is a, I’ve got a picture in the album. Incidentally, I don’t know if you want to look at the Album when I got this French Decoration, three weeks later we were there.
CB. We will look at that in just a moment thank you.
WB. Yes that was the only thing, it’s funny how you remember small things connected to big things. You get some small incidents that occur and a great big thing like D Day you remember the Ground Crew gathering on your return to Base.
CB. How was the relationship between the Aircrew and the Ground Crew.
WB. Oh very good, very, very good yeah we knew them all by name, they were always there with a smile.
CB. We are going to stop there because time has run out so thank you very much indeed.
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Interview with William Barfoot
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Barfoot was born in Newcastle upon Tyne. On joining the Air Force, he trained as a wireless operator but remustered as aircrew. He trained as a navigator in South Africa. He flew operations with 296 Squadron supplying the French and Norwegian Resistance, towing troop gliders to Normandy, Arnham and the Rhine.
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2015-12-08
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Format
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01:10:19 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABarfootWE151208
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
Greece
Netherlands
Norway
South Africa
England--Essex
England--Oxfordshire
England--Kent
South Africa--Makhanda
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
1945
296 Squadron
aircrew
Albemarle
Anson
Dominie
Gee
Halifax
Hamilcar
Horsa
military service conditions
Morse-keyed wireless telegraphy
navigator
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
RAF Brize Norton
RAF Castle Bromwich
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Earls Colne
RAF Hullavington
RAF Manston
RAF Shawbury
RAF Yatesbury
Resistance
Stirling
Tiger Moth
Whitley
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Nigel Moore
Description
An account of the resource
<p>RAF Swinderby was a Bomber Command station located in Lincolnshire, 8 miles (13 kms) south-west of Lincoln.<br /> <br /><strong><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=RAF+Swinderby" target="_blank" rel="noopener">See all Archive items</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/?takeoff-stations=Swinderby&select-search-options%5B%5D=takeoff-stations&_token=mebTm5EIx2lRCtMWNwpmfHjqV5wzbPtEYox3Hnyq&losses_form=7f8a0f6148&orderby=surname&order=asc" target="_blank" rel="noopener">See all wartime losses</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/neatline/fullscreen/places#records/473" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Explore nearby</a></strong> <br /><br />It opened in August 1940 as part of <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=1+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">1 Group</a> when it was home to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=300+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">300 Squadron</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=301+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">301 Squadron</a>, two Polish Squadrons. They were initially equipped with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Battle" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Battles</a> but converted to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Wellington" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Wellingtons</a> in late 1940. In July 1941 the station was transferred to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=5+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">5 Group</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=50+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">50 Squadron</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=455+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">455 Squadron</a> both moved in with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Hampden" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Hampdens</a>. Concrete runways were laid November 1941 – June 1942 following which 50 Squadron returned converting to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Manchester" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Manchesters</a> and subsequently to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Lancaster" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Lancasters</a>. In September 1942 operational flying ceased and RAF Swinderby became a training station with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=1660+HCU" target="_blank" rel="noopener">1660 Heavy Conversion Unit</a> operating Manchesters, <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Halifax" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Halifaxes</a>, Lancasters and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Stirling" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Stirlings</a>. In November 1944 the station transferred to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=7+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">7 Group</a>.</p>
Refinements:<br /> <span style="font-size: small;"><code><span> <br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Artwork&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Artwork</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Correspondence&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Correspondence</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map.+Navigation+chart+and+log&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map. Navigation chart and log</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Diary&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Diary</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Moving+image&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Moving image</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Log+book+and+record+book&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Log book and record book</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Photograph&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Photograph</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Memoir&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Swinderby&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. 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RAF Swinderby [entry point]
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Title
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Gomersal, Oliver.
Description
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Ten items. An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Oliver Gomersal (b. 1921, 1433231, 139719 Royal Air Force), a memoir, accounts of operations, a list of postings, his logbook and two photographs. Oliver Gomersal was navigator with 621 Squadron stationed in East Africa and Aden. On 2 May 1944 his Wellington successfully attacked a German submarine, U852.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Oliver Gomersal and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
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Gomersal, O
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CB. Today is Monday 30th June 2016, my name is Chris Brockbank and we are meeting today Oliver Gomersal who was a, an Observer in Coastal Command during the war and has been a resident of Buxton all his life. Oliver how did you come to, what are the earliest recollections you have of life?
OG. Well I was born in Buxton in May 1921, I had me 95th Birthday Day [cough] just the week before I am speaking. Oh I have been very, very lucky for various reasons. I have had two life saving cancer operations by the Hospital at Stepping Hill, Stockport and I eh owe them my life twice otherwise I would have disappeared twenty years ago. What intrigues me is the trouble they got to with me even as an old man and that applies to other people as well. So nobody knocks National Health to me. But eh anyway I was brought up in Buxton, went to the infants school there as everybody else did and then went onto what was called an Elementary School [cough] you went to until you were fourteen and then left school and got a job but I was lucky and got a Scholarship to Buxton College which was the local Secondary or Grammar School and eh with em I didn’t leave until I was sixteen. I had my two particular friends were reasonable good Cricketers and in 1937 we all played in the College Cricket Team which that year never lost a match. Later on in my RAF Career I played cricket for the, for an RAF Cricket team in Aberystwyth, Odiham and Brighton, I have played on the County Ground at Brighton. After the war when I returned home I took up Tennis as me main sport. Anyway back to school days eh after I left Buxton College in 1937 I eh went to an Uncle at Teddington on Thames in Middlesex, he had a small printing works. The family idea was that I learn the printing trade and eventually take it over. Sadly the war started and eh you couldn’t get paper and the actual demand for diminished considerably because quite a lot of it is; “how shall I say.” Not luxury work, but it isn’t necessary.[cough] So I came back to Buxton and very fortunately got a job in the Borough Treasurers Office. The Borough Treasurers Son was a big pal of mine at Buxton College so I suspect there was a little bit of collusion like that but I was very lucky to get another job at that stage and I worked for a year and a half in the Treasurers before going into the Air Force but I eh in 1940 I joined the Home Guard and I had just over a year in the Home Guard which was very very useful pre military training indeed and eh [cough] I went to Cardington where the Airship Hangers were still evident there and was interviewed by a panel of three Officers for the eh Air Force and eh decided I could undertake training as an Observer eh which of course was both an Navigator and a Bomber Aimer in those days, combined job and eh when I, the tribunal told me they were quite happy to accept me for training. The Chairman of the panel said “Now Gomersal don’t forget, Observers are brains of the Air Force” So I had always got that up me sleeve of course. Anyway I was eh, four or five months before I was called up, went to Aircrew receiving centre which was Lords Cricket Ground in London where fellows were pouring in mostly for Navigator and Pilots training because the initial training was exactly the same and I was embodied in a group of chaps who were all going to be Observers and we were sent after a fortnight to Aberystwyth [cough] to do the preliminary course there where we started to learn about Air Force Administration and to march and do as you are told and clean the room and all these sort of things that they emphasise when you go in to let you know that you are there to do as you are told and sadly half way through the course I got what turned out to be a low grade Pneumonia and ended up in the RAF Hospital at Cosford eh for four or five weeks but eventually I was declared reasonably fit and after a Medical Board in Kingsway the Air Force sort of Medical Board I was passed to carry on with the Training which I did. And eh, I started from scratch again the ITW course with a whole group of Pilots but when we finished the course after two or three months then I was posted to eh the Elementary Navigation School at Eastbourne as it was called then and eh we had then oh I suppose three months there where we did quite a lot of the basic eh school work as it were of Navigation. Again we went through it in, in Flying School with eh flying of course applying the same things in practice, but really the guts of course was at Eastbourne. The trained a whole host of fellows there. While I was there it was bombed by a eh Fighter Bombers, German Aircraft from the other side of the Chanel. I remember one morning we were doing PT in the Park and eh at Eastbourne and a Corporal was in charge of us and we could hear an aircraft behind us and suddenly the Corporal shouts “Get down it’s a Gerry” and we had only got Gym kit on, we looked up and we could see this aircraft coming and I actually saw the bomb leave the aircraft but it was nearly over us we knew it was going to hit us. But I could tell you I have never felt so naked in me life. We literary virtually went and hid under the bushes, ones natural instincts. But anyway their information was very very good, the bomb hit one of the hotels at the front used by the RAF, but fortunately they had a very late lunchtime and so there were no aircraft, air cadets in there but sadly there were some WAAFs who were eh preparing the meal and so on and some of them were casualties. So the German information, intelligence was very good indeed.But em we finished there and I was eh sent to West Kirby where they got drafts ready for overseas and I joined one to go to South Africa where eh [cough] Pilots were trained up in Rhodesia and there were five Air Schools in the Cape training Bomb Aimers and Navigators and we went to Oaksthorne, it is now famous for where all the ostrich farms are and eh did the Navigation course there. Also the bombing course, the bombing course was about fifteen miles from Oaksthorne itself. And when we done the bombing the Pilots used to amuse themselves by flying low and making the ostriches run which I thought was rather a dirty trick, but there we are. Now of course it is quite famous for eh visitors and people going to South Africa for a trip round usually get to Oaksthorne one way or another if they are doing the Cape. We did an Air Gunnery course at the end of our training at a place called Port Alfred for three weeks. We returned by the most spectacular train journeys there are in South Africa to Cape Town where I happen to have an Uncle, an Aunt my, my Fathers youngest Sister and she said she had never had any of her family under her roof before. I just had two days there and I was last but two on a posting back to UK. And eh my main pal whose name alphabetically was further along the line from mine stayed there for a fortnight. My Aunt took him and another pal all round and gave him. But anyway I came back to England and we went to Harrogate which was a Personnel Training Course there eh and, and a Transit Camp and eh from there we were posted to Blackpool to train for Coastal Command following rather sad circumstances. The course was called GR General Reconnaissance and it was for co-operation with the Navy and it was extra eh Navigational Patrols and somewhat rather more complicated that you needed in Bomber Command. And eh we got there because twelve people from eh the GR School in Canada, eh were torpedoed coming back to England. So they picked twelve of us at random and said “Right you are going to have a rush course at Squires Gate and then you will fill in where these chaps were going to go.” So that happened and then eventually some of us were picked to go to a new Squadron that was being formed in East Africa. As the eh Mediterranean was being open for shipping it was decided it was safe to send convoys there and down the Suez Canal instead of all the way round the Cape to get to India and the eh East. So our Squadron was formed to patrol the Gulf of Aden and the North West areas of the Indian Ocean because of the expected increase in submarine both with the Germans and the Japanese. So after OTU where we all joined together as a Crew, got to know each other, eh where we did trips out into the North Atlantic we did a Ferry Training course at Torbay in South Wales here we did as part of the course, two Operational trips out in the Atlantic, one was out in the North part of the Bay of Biscay. We didn’t actually see anything but we started of in the night and came back in the day light. In the night session we passed a Hospital Ship, I can still remember it was lit by floodlights to show its sides and the big red cross, quite an interesting thing to see in the middle of the night. Six of us done a fan, a fan area flight so that we spread out and by the time we got back we were able to report what shipping we had seen and anything like that. I don’t think there was much about but at least the Headquarters of Coastal Command would know it was clear up to a certain point. We then went to a eh, fly out our own aircraft [cough] which the Pilot and the eh Wireless Operator had picked up fresh from the factory[cough]. After we had done various tests including an endurance, fuel consumption test and I remember this, I had to work this out and it done one and a half air miles per gallon which as a motorist later in life seemed to be rather in excess. But eh we then flew out to East Africa, we set off from Hearne at the back of Bournemouth, I think it is now Bournemouth Airport. And at the dead of night flew down the English Chanel dodging the French coast and then down across the Bay of Biscay. Eh when we passed the North Cape of eh of France I we, we put the Radar on, we had a primitive Radar it was called ASV or Air to Surface Vessels, it didn’t always work very well as I say and it was a somewhat primitive one but eh [cough] we were able to detect the cliffs at the top West, North West Corner of France and we were about forty miles away which was just right. If there was a rough sea it didn’t work very well and if there were no features on the shore line it didn’t show the difference between the sea and the shore. Cliffs were ok, fortunately we were just about where I hoped we would be. I must say on this trip out the Meteorological Forecast was absolutely bang on. We got I, I flew on the met wind and we were in the right place going, I think it was Cape Finistere, we were there ok and em, er we went still in darkness, down the Spanish coast and it came light when we were off Portugal. Portugal of course, when you look at the map there eh, shore line is rather bent from North to South. So as we got half way down Portugal, the, the coastline receded and it came back when we got to, I think it is Cape, either Cape St Vincent I think it is at the bottom. I took what is called a running fix of that, where you take two Astro, two compass bearings about eight or nine minutes apart. By transferring one position line you can get a fix within a mile which is very useful and then we flew from that onto North Africa and finished up at Rabat or Rabat, Sale as it is called in Morocco and airfield that had been taken over by the Americans. We were there about a week [cough] “pardon me” because the Atlas Mountains were covered in cloud and our aircraft well loaded with petrol would only get a thousand feet or so above there highest point. They didn’t want us the risk of running in to them, so we waited for a week and we were able to continue the journey and we flew from there to Castel Benito which is in Libya and eh we were warned that we must get an early start because we were flying against time. In other words because we were flying East we lost an hour of the daylight. We got there ok, the next morning we set of for Cairo, the same thing happened, the day seemed a bit shorter, we got to eh and airfield on the outskirts of Cairo, transit airfield and eh, not too far from the Pyramids. In fact when we got the Pyramids in view the Pilot said to me “we can see the Pyramids Oliver so come forward and have a look.” So I went and stood bye the two Pilots and I thought to myself “oh they are just like their photographs.” Well that was a silly thing to think ‘cause so they should be. To see them in real life having seen so many photographs of them it wasn’t quite the impact that I thought it might be. Anyway we stayed at this Transit Camp, Cairo West I think it was called and I had a tent in the sand, let into the sand. Amongst other things we had to have an engine seen there, I think we were ten days there which allowed me to get into the Pyramids. Now the people are queuing up to get, I understand. I went through on me own with a Dragger Man which was interesting and em went round Cairo and em then we set off from there for a flight down the Nile Valley to Khartoum. We followed the Nile for a certain distance and then it went to the left and we went straight on. We got there ok and of course it was sandy there, we had a night there and the next day we were routed to go to Nairobi and this was a very interesting flight. After leaving the sandy desert and the bare landscape around Khartoum as we got into East Africa and Kenya the vegetarian started and we left the sandy rough area behind us. We stopped for lunch at Juba and eh I remember while we were sitting at the bare wooden table where we got out lunch there were Chameleons flitting around up, onto the roof. I am sure they learned if they hung around the table there were crumbs to be picked up. Also the waiters were tall austere eh; Sudan, very impressive indeed. Then we set off again after lunch got to the edge of Lake Victoria and from there we turned left and went into Nairobi where of course we were back to civilisation again. After, oh we handed all our logs of the trip in then, we had to go to Air Headquarters there and hand them in and say if we had any problems on the way out or something like that. Then we after a week we flew down to Mombasa on the Coast which was a initially where our Squadron was formed. From there we flew up to Mogadishu which was where most of the aircraft were, Italian Somalia land eh. It was a beautiful town the Italians are very, very artistic. Good Engineers indeed and the towns they built in East Africa were, were worth seeing they really were, it is sad to see the state they have got into now. I always tell people when we were at some of the eh outstations there in the eh Horn of Africa, we lived rough, we shaved when we felt like it and eh we flew out Convoy Escorts and things from there. I have a photograph of all of us at one of the huts and we look a real gang of Pirates. I always say with that photograph “Those are the first Pirates in Somalia Land now.” But anyway sometimes after three months they moved our main Headquarters for Major Servicing from Nairobi to Aden and when we got back from the trip to Nairobi for engine change and things like that, when we got back to Mogadishu the Squadron had all left and gone to Aden. So we then had a very interesting trip over the edge of Abyssinia. I wish I could remember more about it but anyway we landed at Aden two days before Christmas and jollifications were held because drinks were cheap in that area, I am not saying they were very good, they were available. After that we carried on the normal life which we done from Mogadishu, Convoy Escorts and anti Submarine looking for submarines where the Naval Intelligence in the area were able to pick up the German Submarines broadcasting back to their Headquarters in Germany which they did every morning. And so they were able in due course, in May, next May to warn the aircraft that there was a submarine working its way up East Africa. We took of one morning about four o’clock in the morning, went down the shipping lane, these shipping lanes were where the Convoys went, of the Germans obviously knew all about them. About half past five in the morning just gone light we spotted a German U Boat happily making its way up the shipping lane. By the time it spotted us Eh, eh we were, lost height, gone down to about five hundred feet and the eh Pilot dropped the eh depth charges on where it had just eh, gone under the water. It was the result of an exercise we done at Silloth at OTU where we practiced dropping bombs on a boat that was towed or a target that was towed by motor boat. Then we did it for real he made a very good judgement of where the eh, eh submarine might be. Apparently got a depth charge each side of it and blew it to the surface. Now this is a very good indication of how ones mind can work in emergencies or slowly. The phrase time stood still was brought home to me, because I had been with another Crew, I never had anything wrong with me in that area a lot of the chaps had sub tropical diseases and so on. Eh I had to fly another aircraft where there Navigator got sick and I in fact got twenty more Operational trips in than the rest of my Crew. I had been flying with another Crew when they thought they saw a submarine conning tower but they were never quite sure. I thought, “Well I am not missing this.” So I got in the conning tower was able, in the eh astro dome and I was able to see the full attack more than anybody else. So I saw the approach while Stephenson the Front Gunner using his guns managing to hit the conning tower of the submarine just before it submerged. And then as the Pilot lined up for his attack [cough] as he pressed the button the depth charges went off, were released, I could feel the aircraft rise. Then I turned round and I could see them hanging in the air and I thought to myself “Get down, get down you blighters, get down.” Now according to the physics that I learned at school the force of gravity and the speed of things dropping they could only have been in the air, one and a half seconds and yet to me that was almost an eternity. I said “Get down, get down you blighters get down.” They did get down and the submarine disappeared. After about ten minutes flying round at about five hundred feet the nose of the submarine appeared and the Pilot shouted to the Second Pilot “Harvey get the camera out, they will never believe us.” And they got the camera out and took some photographs and then it disappeared again and then a minute or two later it eh resurfaced. We were looking at it with interest. I remember I was getting some messages ready to send off and I heard the Second Pilot who was a Canadian say “Gee they are shooting at us.” And eh [cough] we cleared of as quick as we could doing a Cork Screw and the Rear Gunner managed to keep the German Gunners heads down and I realise, although he never got any mention afterwards we probably owe our lives to him. Anyway we cleared off and eventually when we thought we were out of range of their guns, they got an anti aircraft gun which kept us three miles away. If we got any nearer they started shooting again at us, but our job was in that situation to shadow the submarine because in the aircraft there was some little wireless signal apparatus you could turn on and it made a little beacon and the other aircraft could tune in and home on you. So we did that and our job was to keep in reasonable sight to the submarine which turned round two or three ways and eventually set of on a zig zag course roughly South which I reported back over the radio. Many years later I got to know a man who had been in the Air Force who was seconded to eh British Airways, Overseas Airways and he became part of a Flying Boat eh service from Durban, up to, it was known as the Horseshoe run. They came up to the Middle East, turned right and went down to Calcutta, went to Karachi, loaded up went across India to Calcutta. At the end of my Air Force Career was fortunate to have a trip across India from Karachi to Calcutta in one of these em, they were a variant of the Short Sunderland Flying Boat civilian version [cough] and it was a very interesting trip indeed.One of the highlights of me life, because they say if you had a trip in one of those flying boats. I have forgotten the name of the service but you never forget it and that’s quite true. But anyway “Where have I got to?” We were with the submarine for three or four hours and then our petrol was getting short another aircraft turned up when we were there it had homed on our beacon and went into attack. We started to attack but the other one was three or four miles ahead of us so we couldn’t make a diversionary attack because his attack was over. Eventually four more aircraft came Wellingtons and dropped depth charges on it but the Commander of the submarine was so efficient that he had the air, submarine taking evasive action and it was such a big one that it was blown up but landed back in the water and it was still able to proceed at about twelve knots. One or two of the other aircraft photographed it in motion as it were but eventually [cough] it was beached on the East African coast and I have a photograph in the book since of it still there. I don’t know any scrap iron merchants in East Africa but there is a jolly good haul there where the hull could cope with it. Then we continued normal anti eh submarine trips and eh Convoy Escorts at the rest of our time until we finished our year, which was the length of our tour in East Africa. Then we went from there to eh, the Middle East er I was commissioned at the end of my time with the Squadron. It caused rather a bit of amusement ‘cause I apparently [cough] when we finished the Navigation course at Oaksthorne I done rather well in the examinations and been commissioned and nobody told me and certainly nothing in writing and I, I continued to be a Sergeant and later a Flight Sergeant [cough] “pardon me” on the Squadron eh and just as we had been cleared the Station for, for eh posting to the Middle East and dispersal, the Adjutant sent for me one day and said “Have you been applying for a commission?” I said “Well not really but I understood I had been granted one at Flying School but I never heard any more.” He said “Well I have had a signal from the Air Ministry stating you have got to be commissioned immediately with seniority back to March 1943.” So there we were. I had been cleared on the Station so I was in no mans land sort of thing. Anyway to deal with it administratively I had to go round the important parts of the Aden set up with an arrival chit in one hand and a clearance chit in the other. Now all forces will understand completely what that meant because to gazette me as an Officer through the Aden Headquarters I had to be officially one of their Stations. So I went round the Aden, saw about ten different Officers of various sorts and eh they booked me in with the clearance chit eh, eh the arrival chit and then they cleared me with the clearance chit all within three minutes and nobody but nobody turned a hair so I can only assume that that was an operation that happened from time to time. I has always tickled me very much but eh from then on I was an Officer, I was a Pilot Officer for three months and then I was told that I could become a Flying Officer and I had that for three or four months and then eh I, I funnily enough I had friends in Bristol, Family friends and I went to see them and eh from the Station where I was in Odiham in Hampshire [cough] and I went in the main library in Bristol and found there the copies of the London Gazette where all Officers promotions, registrations promulgated and I found the eh actual number where I was eh promoted to a Flight Lieutenant. So I went back to my Station at Odiham and said to the chap in charge of the Section I was in “By the way I found me Flight Lieutenant.” So he said “You had better put it up.” I went to the Camp tailors and they did the necessary so there I was a Flight Lieutenant. But eh I thought well after I finish with the Squadron I shall do much flying, have a rather interesting time perhaps, but by jove I couldn’t have been more wrong. [cough] We went to eh, after returning to England we went to eh a place in North Yorkshire eh which was acting as a transit camp for eh retraining Aircrew and eh we had em tests of various sorts, intelligence tests and so on and we were given the option of several things. Now they were looking for people to train as Officers to deal with the expanding Transport Command. We did a course to deal with working out the centre of gravity of a loaded aircraft and things like that. Dealing with passengers and freight and we ended the course at em; name escapes me at the moment, in Wiltshire and em when we passed out there we went to em another RAF Station at the end of the trunk road, trunk route out for India. And it was very exciting to go into a big hanger to see the floor split up into portions. Say Malta, Cairo, Karachi and they put the freight for the aircraft into those sections and so on. Anyway eh after that course I was posted to Odiham in Hampshire where I stayed for, we were loading aircraft the last two months of the war and all sorts of interesting things put on. We were loading Dakotas and by George they were workhorses, they were marvellous. Then the war finished and eh we were loading petrol for Fighters at one time and then we were sending out more normal things, passengers. Then eh I was asked if I would go to Tarrant Rushton in; oh, haven’t got my maps of the County and supervise a job transferring what is called a complete Federacy Issue, that is all the cash, hard cash in the Country. The Czech Government in exile had had a complete set of currency printed by Waterman’s[?] the famous printers and it was kept in a cave underground near Colerne, near Bath. My particular pal had been an Armourer and had been at Colerne so when they asked for a volunteer I said “Yes I’ll go.” I thought it would be interesting to see Colerne. By then there were only about four aircraft a day leaving or arriving at em Odiham where I was and so I was in charge of the eh boxed up cash, mostly notes. The idea was that a Squadron; of Lancs, not Lancasters “What is the other big four engined aircraft?”
CB. Halifax.
OG. Halifax’s based there and we loaded them up, the cash was brought in big heavy boxes and were loaded into the Bomb Bay. I had to work out the centre of gravity of the loaded aircraft ‘cause we had to weigh all these and eh work out where the centre of gravity would be and eh all the weight of the aircraft and so on. Anyway there were about ten flights per day to eh; the capital of Czechoslovakia.
CB. Prague.
OG. Prague and eh we did this for a number of days, by the time they were all shifted. Oh by the way there were some officials from the Czech National Bank sent over to assist. There were three Czech Soldiers back with every load to be repatriated and if they were forced to land on any land in Europe they got and armed guard because of all the Cash they had. I did a summary and analysis of all the Flights there were I think a hundred and thirteen flights all together and we carried three hundred and thirteen Soldiers to be repatriated. And the RAF measures it’s Freight in pounds so the summary I did at the end of all these was over five hundred thousand pounds of freight. I after we finished of I went back to Odiham and then reported to Transport Command Headquarters[cough] for Europe in North London near Harrow and when I got there I gave them the paperwork. I done all the clerical work which documented the full load and they were rather pleased with it and there was a vacancy at Copenhagen Airport for one of the RAF Traffic Staff. They offered me that which naturally I took. Well when I went to Copenhagen, I was there for the three months it was like going to a land of milk and honey after England and I had a very interesting time there. I, I got to know a gentleman, one of the eh; Army Officers on the Movements side there was a man with the unusual name of Captain Duck, D,U,C,K. [spelt out] never met the name since. Anyway he palled me up, or palled up with me and said “Oh I go and see a Czech Civilian once a week and he has told me to bring a pal if I want to, do you want to come?” and we went and after two weeks Captain Duck was posted so this Norwegian Gentleman, Czech, sorry this Danish Gentleman who spoke very, very good English said eh “Well don’t you stop coming Oliver, you come and see me once a week.” He had an Office in eh Pra, eh.
CB. Copenhagen.
OG. Now where did I just say? Copenhagen, he had an Office in Copenhagen. He was an Importer of textiles for making suits and so on. I knew he had been to England anyway after I had known him six or seven weeks the subject had never come up before. He said “Where do you live in England Oliver?” I said “A place called Buxton, south of Manchester.” I always aligned it to Manchester because most people knew where that was. “Oh but Oliver this is marvellous I have been there.” It turned out on one of his trips to England to buy cloth, he had been to eh eh eh place at Leake where they made cloth or mostly what they do was silk. The people in charge there called Stanard in that time said to him “Where have you booked?” and he had booked in a public house in the area [cough] they said “Oh you mustn’t stay there our Mother has a nice house and flat near the Pavilion Gardens in Buxton, you must go and stay with her.” Which he did, and I said to him “Well that is about as the crow flies, three hundred yards from where I live.” Wasn’t it strange that he should know Buxton as near as that. Anyway I was posted from there to Prague as relief Commanding Officer which someone wanted to thank me for the job I had done there. I was there for two or three weeks. Incidentally when I was there the river Vitava froze up, froze over and we were issued with Arctic Kit, so I could quite shoot a line that I had Tropical Kit issued when I was in Africa and later on Arctic Kit although I never had occasion to wear it. One of my line shoots. From there I was as I say sent back to Prague for a week or two, I think it was three weeks as relief Commanding Officer. And then just when I was thinking about when I would get my demob I was posted to Singapore on the Traffic Management there and I spent probably five months there and then I was posted home by sea. So I was very lucky I had the most interesting time in Transport Command, I met a lot of interesting people as well. Part of me life I look back on with great interest. Well I returned back to Buxton and returned to the Surveying, the Borough Department in Buxton.
CB. We are going to have a break there.
CB. What we just want to do now, please Oliver is just go back on one or two points, so when you were at OTU, so where was the OTU?
OG. Siloth in Cumberland.
CB. Right and it’s right on the coast.
OG. Yeah, we used to fly down the South of Ireland into the Atlantic or up North over the Hebrides.
CB. So before you did that, then you all arrived as individuals at Silloth ready to join the OTU. So when you arrived how did you come to Crew up what was the process.
OG. A very tricky problem but in ours it was laughable.
CB. And where was it?
OG. At Silloth.
CB. Yeah but where, in a hanger or in a big room or?
OG. Oh it was in a room somewhere, only we got the message, “Oh they are crewing up in room so and so there, hurry up.” And when we got there there were six Crews, five had crewed up and there was one Pilot left and just my Crew and so we had to take him you see. It turned out he was a duff chap, I didn’t care for him eh, he is the sort of bloke who I think could have had a drink problem eventually. But eh the few trips we did with eh screened Pilots acting as checkers of his ability they never let him fly on his own. I went one trip eh in the area, local flying I think it is called but fortunately after three trips it was decided he wasn’t fit to let loose with a Crew in a Wellington and he was off the course. Whatever happened to him I don’t know and I don’t care [cough]. So we got a new Pilot from Flying School a chap called Roy Mitchell and he was just as good as the other chap was bad, so we were very lucky. Another bee in my bonnet nobody has ever mentioned eh, he didn’t survive the war like the rest of us. He was killed, he was an Instructor somewhere and in December 1945 he was killed in a crash and the shock killed his Mother. We arranged he went up to the Middle East as an Instructor, I came back to England newly commissioned but I said to him “I have friends in London I shall certainly be seeing, Tedington way.” I had lived [unclear] lodge we had their little girl as an evacuee and the next doors little girl in Buxton during the war. Her daughter, the landladies daughter who was six when I first new her is now in a home and she is eighty; four now.[cough]. And another little girl the next door neighbour, I am in touch with both of them I have kept in touch all our lives. Eh, I have three friends who were Pilots, they lost their lives and in each case a parent died soon afterward, I am sure the shock killed them. One woman Roy Mitchells Mother and two of their Fathers lost their lives in a very short time of loosing their own lives. And I am sure if you equate that through all the British and Commonwealth Forces. I suppose French Forces, American Forces, Russian Forces, German Forces a lot of people died because of shock like that. I am sure eh, eh my experience of it is common and it is a side issue that nobody ever talks about or thinks about now but it has struck me, quite close to me. Eh anyway [cough] I will take another swig and I will talk about crewing up.
CB. Right ok, hang on.
OG. I get husky ‘cause my throat is a little from time to time you know this cough and cold that was going around, I had it for five and a half weeks, some people have it for a day or two.
CB. Right, crewing up is slightly different here because it was a smaller number of people. So you just said there were enough people for five, six crews. Five of them had already crewed up by the time you had walked in the room. How many of the rest, how many people there did you know before you moved into the room?
OG. None of them and as I say the first Pilot we got, because he was the only one left. He was rather a poor type and very fortunately the Instructors, the Flying Instructors soon rumbled him and he was taken off the course. I don’t honestly think we would even lived to get on Operations if we continued with him, but anyway we eventually got a chap who was just as good as he was bad. And with our little affair with the German Submarine and dust up with that he got the DFC quite rightly, our friend Stevie got the DFM the Front Gunner.
CB. What about the other members of the Crew, who were they.
OG. We were told you want to go to so and so room they are crewing up. Time we got there why we weren’t told earlier I don’t know. But eh, the Pilot were all strangers to each other ‘cause up until then we had done our own little thing and the three Wireless Operator, Air Gunners we had had all been friends at the Wireless School, so they were three friends so they would stick together and I was the Navigator. We had a Canadian Second Pilot who [cough] while eh we had to wait when our First Pilot was taken of the course. We had a weeks leave while they sorted some new chap out for us and I brought this Canadian back to my home town, Buxton. We had a very pleasant week together and eh when we went back we got a new Pilot and he was a jolly good chap and eh Roy Mitchell. Sadly not to survive the war, but eh that was how we crewed up, it was a rather hit and miss affair altogether. So how I would have decided I have not the faintest idea. There were three Canadian Pilots as Captains and eh there we are. I had no choice in the matter, none of us did. Eh, we kept two of the Wireless Operator, Air Gunners but one of them disappeared after some months when we got to Africa. He had what is politely called a social disease. I won’t say any more about him but he was replaced by odd bods from then on till we got a Warrant Officer Wireless Operator on his second tour and we kept him for the last half year we were eh Operating. But no this is, we just met as strangers and that was it. You got to know each other except this chap we lost, he was a Glaswegian, I couldn’t understand half he said, then I am sure he couldn’t understand me, so we never had much to do with each other. That’s how we were crewed up, it was a very hit and miss affair altogether. But I am quite sure you can’t decide who you like and who you don’t like and who you favour eh when you are just jumbled together for the first time. But that was it, it worked out ok for the rest of us.
CB. So here you are, you have all, you all joined as the last Crew of six, did you all go away to eat after that or what happened. How did you, how did you gel together?
OG. Well we did standard exercises to teach us A. How to fly a Wellington as a Crew, the Pilots to pilot it, me to Navigate it. The Wireless Operators to work with the tackle there and the primitive eh Radar ASV, Air to Surface Vessels [cough]. We had graded exercises where we flew three hours, four hours up to I suppose seven or eight hours. Eh further afield all the time and eh got used to flying over the sea. There were no towns to recognise, geographical features over the sea. So instead of two hour flights in eh the training aircraft eh Oxfords and the other one, I have just forgotten the name.
CB. Ansons.
OG. Ansons thats it, Ansons yes, so of course we had to get used to flying for quite a number of hours. The longest trip we did actually, or I did was with another Crew not me own, when we found some survivors from a torpedoed ship and got them picked up by the Navy. We were airbourne for just under ten hours of that one.Stayed with them after we found them as long as we could. Eh but eh, eventually the, the trips got longer and at the far end of the course we did most of the night flying as well. So there we are, so by the time we had finished we were then a Crew able to be posted to a Squadron we went down to Torbay[?] in South Wales for a fortnight picked up a brand new Wellington. Got used to that and did what in the Navy called running in trials and flew out to East Africa all the way across North Africa a most interesting flight indeed and a very good end to our Apprenticeship.
CB. Now at OTU, you are at OTU you are learning how to search for ships as well as escort them. So the fan system could you just describe how the fan system worked.
OG. Some of the exercises were for the Pilot, some were for the Air Gunners and eh indeed the one for the Pilot, I repeat, depth charges were released by the Pilot pressing the button but you had to drop them from fifty or sixty feet over the sea, no higher than that and of course you had got to judge your height pretty carefully. So he had two or three exercises where he had to do low level bombing over something target towing by a Motor Boat. As I said in something I wrote about it a very useful exercise for the Pilot for when we had to do it for real, nine months later on. But em I of course had the increasing length of navigation trips eh and em we didn’t really have much wireless help because, because of the Germans flying in the area as well. They didn’t want our beacons that they could use as well as us. So the, the radio contact was only the walkie talkie within five or ten miles of the Airfield itself. That’s how we crewed up and we took it for granted that one of the other Crews, the six that were crewed up that day actually landed in the Solway Firth. They had something wrong with an engine and they went there. They all got out ok but one of them the Navigator couldn’t swim and one of the Wireless Operators, a South African who was a very good swimmer, so he saved his life. I think he got a British Empire Medal for that but otherwise we all went our different ways. But eh two or three of the aircraft that were there when I was ended up on the same Squadron as I was. We flew out over oh eight week, six, seven or eight weeks to form the Squadron. We got there about three quarters of the way through.
CB. So your Squadron was Six Twenty One.
OG. 621 yeah.
CB. And what would be a standard days activity, what would you be doing?
OG. Well we had lectures of various sorts [cough] of course when we got to Aden it was rather warm there and I was fortunate I could stand hot weather. The wife used to say I was twice as lively in hot weather. I never had a thing wrong with me in the year I was there in the year and a quarter and some of my friends had minor tropical diseases and things that I mentioned before. Fly when Navigators were sick I never had a thing wrong I was very fortunate. But em the rest of my Crew were sent on a course up to Middle East on one occasion when I was flying with somebody else and eh thing like that. Actually the programme there was you only worked or attended the Crew Room in the mornings and then the afternoons you started early of course. Then the afternoon was your own, we went to bed or something brilliant like that. There was an active football completion in our Liaison Forces, you see there were quite a lot of Army people there. Up to the end of the First War Aden was a Navy Protectorate, was administered by the Army from India, it came under the Indian Army. My old, when I was in the Printer Works the foreman of the composing room eh had been in the Indian Army and he used to say “Gusog, no more beer in Aden” in his Cockney voice. I, I never was able to get in touch with him to tell him I spent a year in Aden and its environs, but there we are so that was it. But it, after the first war the Government tried the experiment of making the Royal Air Force the paramount Military Force their and so the AOC was the Senior Military Figure and it was administered from Aden up to the second war. Of course when the Italian war started all the Italian Colonies in East Africa they were doing Operation Flights from Aden. These Airfields where they could get at them and bombing them, this went on, well the Italian war was on. You know it is never mentioned now the East African Campaign. It was the most successful Campaign of the whole war. And eh when he started, Mussolini of course thought he could get in on the act and be part of the winning side without much trouble. The Italian Forces and eh Native Troops in East Africa outnumbered the British Forces and Native Troops by nine to one, I will repeat that nine to one. But when the South Africans came up from eh Cape Town area, East Africans they advanced from the South and they mopped the Italians up and the British Forces from Khartoum advanced to the other side of Eritrea which the Italians had taken over and after a year and a half they had really pushed all the Italians out and we took over. British Forces took over the Administration of what had been Italian East Africa. And but it is completely forgotten now it was an absolutely successful war. Just as a by line in 1941 Easter I remember being at home while I was waiting to be embodied in the Air Force Eh we had what became one of the original outside broadcasts was our eh eh Commentator from the BBC in Perham the North part where they were about to do the last attempt to push the Italians out who were in a top of a Mountain. These British forces had to fight their way up the mountain and we listened to the broadcast of this in Buxton. Little did I know that in three years later in 1944 I would be on leave in Assmore in Eritrea and be able to go to Kirin. There was a bus run to Kirin and just beyond it and I went one day to see Kirin. When I got to Kirin and got off the bus there was the eh cemetery with all these poor chaps who had fought their way up to the top of the mountain or did their best to, which they did successfully, but lost their lives in the eh,activity. Em there was a, all the graves are there and the chap in charge of them was a middle aged South African Officer so when he found out that I did my training in South Africa, oh stop and have a cup of tea and so on. I stayed with him till about an hour later catching the bus to return to Asmara. It was horrible to me to think I had heard it A.over the radio and to be on the spot where all these poor chaps had died. It is a forgotten war now but it was the most successful I would say of any of the Operations undertaken.
CB. Very interesting.
OG. Only as a spectator.
CB. So now going if we may to talk about the attack on the Submarine again.So Oliver just what I would want to now cover please is.
OG.Is the submarine.
CB. Ok when you became, how did you become aware of the attack, can you just talk us through can you, how did you get to know about it?
OG. Well we were going that way it was coming up this way.
CB. I know but how did you get to know about it in the aircraft, somebody shouted?
OG. Oh, the Navy had very good intelligence in East Africa and when the submarine must have radioed back to Germany periodically and they caught that and they knew it was coming up the coast. It had gone round the Cape and torpedoed a couple of ships on the way round. And because eh, they thought they had killed everybody on rafts and that sort of thing but three of them survived and lived long enough to give evidence against them. That’s why the Captain, Commander Eck and two other Officers were executed at the end of the war. It was a, I have got a book about the trial because it was a classic trial at Nuremburg. Nothing to do with the submarine and Eck but because it was a classic trial. I have got back up there somewhere.
CB. That is an important point that came out of it. Here we are, your Squadron had been notified about the presence of a submarine, you were flying along as a Crew, so what was the process.
OG. It was a standard anti submarine patrol because they didn’t let anybody who was liable to be caught by the Germans that they could hear this, even I am told even the Captains of the like Frigates and Destroyers that were searching. They told them where to search but they did not give them the information that so for the Captain they couldn’t divulge it you see. So we set off as I say at four o’clock in the morning, edge of the Horn of Africa and the to go down the shipping lane. By jove we were,I tell you something, five thousand feet. There were some clouds and the Pilot said to the Second Pilot who was flying “You had better come down a bit, little lower Harvey.” I always had a joke that eh if we ever got in that situation the eh, eh Pilot who would be having a pee at the back or something and that is how it had worked out. He had gone down there and eh he,he got in the astrodome and had a look and this in the distance and eh came up to the front and told the Second Pilot who was flying, get out quick and I will get in. That was it, Stevie was rushed into the Front Turret, Front Gun Turret so there you are.
CB. So how many miles are you from the submarine when it was sighted.
OG. [Slight pause] I should think about eight miles something like that.
CB. And what sort of speed would you have been flying?
OG. Oh we flew at 135 knots true air speed [Hello dog] which was em 150 miles an hour that was our standard cruising speed.
CB. Right ok, then at, at that speed you are closing the seven or eight miles and descending all the way?
OG. Well actually the submarine was coming up there, we were here. So the Pilot flew like that so that he got a head on run. Time to get in position, I can only assume the didn’t spot us until it was a bit too late for them. I found out since that this submarine was a type that [cough] took rather a long time to submerge and that was it’s undoing. But he, he, he it was all up when he pressed the button, by jove he was spot on.
CB. And you, you were the Navigator em in the plane, once you knew this was happening what did you do?
OG. Well I, first of all I have to send an alarm signal. The RAF code for I have observed a submarine or spotted one was 465. The Merchant Navy similar signal was SS,SS so we sent 465 SS, SS, 465 so both the Merchant Navy in the area and the RAF anybody listening in. The Wireless Operator at the time was a, was the Australian Ted Turner and Ted told me he had received all these messages going along and the different tones. So the Wireless Operator is toned up, picking their own tone what they are listening to. But he said “When you send SOS everybody else hears it and the clear of the air leave it open to the SOS.” He said it was marvellous to be clear of all the signals and that sort of stuff. But that’s what I did, gave the Wireless Operator this alarm signal to send out and time and so on. And then I have to send out what is called a First Sighting Report and then with rough details. Roughly where it is and so on and then after ten minutes when I have had chance to pin point on the chart exactly where we were er as far as I knew and the information about the submarine eh that it had submerged that was about eight or nine minutes later. Then it came up, so I sent another one to say it was zig zagging, it. What Roy Mitchell tried to do was drive it to the East African coast. But it did sort of circles and then zig zagged southwards. I put that in the message that it was zig zagging southwards, then after that it was firing at us with a big gun. We, we got three miles from it until it stopped firing, if we got any nearer that it started using the big gun again. And eh our job was to say shadow it so we could home other aircraft onto it which is what we did. They turned up after about an hour.
CB. And what sort of attack did they make. Same sort of thing, you have got to drop depth charges as I say between fifty and sixty feet so you have to get right down. So our Front Gunners were shooting at the Germans and they were shooting back. Six or seven of the Germans were killed sadly but that was that. But they would have, they were specifically ordered to patrol that area to torpedo troop carrying ships of course you see they were reinforcing the Burmese war in India and there were quite a lot of Troop Carrying Ships. In fact I went on a WEA Course about about Gardens[?] many years after the war and the chap giving the talks had actually been out to eh Burma as a Soldier on one of these ships. We may well have done a Convoy Escort round the ship. We, we used to patrol round it, or convoys something like that ahead ‘cause the submarines used to lie in wait.
CB. How many, how many ships might there be in a convoy?
OG. It varied, I think probably I have seen eh. They weren’t as big as the Atlantic Convoys but I have seen ten or fifteen up the Persian Gulf.
CB. Just going back to the attack, you hear on the intercom whats going on, what did you after you.
OG. What happened, was Stevie was, what you do.
CB.Stevie being the Gunner at the front?
OG. Wall Stevenson the bloke you met. The Pilot there he is looking from straight ahead down to left, Steve who is in the Second Pilots seat he is looking straight ahead down to the right and Stevie spotted it because it was sort of over there you see. Stevie said “What the so and so is that?” I heard him on the intercom you see so I suppose I probably went and had a look myself and I could probably see it was probably eight or ten miles away. You could see the wake very clearly in that case. So then the Pilot comes and gets over the main spar and into the Pilots seat and takes over and looses height, it was just eh he had just ordered Harvey to come down three or four thousand feet cause we were going through some clouds and they would be in the way. So he would say come down to two thousand feet so that’s where we were. We would be going about five minutes when Stevie spots this. So I went to have a look and I could see it in the distance. See the wake and he got lower and lower and lower, they must have been quite late spotting us fortunately because we got quite near to it comparatively speaking before it started to go down. And as I said it was one that went down rather slowly and eh then we went over it eh Roy Mitchell the Pilot said “Have they dropped, have they gone off.” I said “yes they’ve gone off a treat.” But that is after watching them hang and they were there and eh.
CB. So you are watching them where?
OG. The Astrodome that was the bubble the Perspex for taking Astroshots a very good place for having to look at things. And eh, so then I came back and eh gave the alarm signals. I may have told you on the run in ‘cause it was a submarine and that was it. If there were any English submarines in the vicinity we were eh told, roughly where they were, but anyway that was that [cough] I will wet me whistle again.
CB. That is it, we will stop there for a minute.
OG. One of the topics Oliver that comes up with Bomber Command is the question of LMF and in your circumstance there was completely different activity but what was the main concern there and did you ever hear about or experience the situation of LMF?
OG. No I can’t remember anything like that eh I remember one of our Instructors who had been in Coastal Command in Northern Ireland he said by the end the, the tour by the way for Coastal Command was twelve months. He said there were chaps there who had been flying for twelve months over the Atlantic and he said they got quite “Bomb Happy” isn’t the word but they had had enough sort of thing but it was a mental, not the same quite thing exactly, they were just browned off didn’t care whither they lived or died from that point of view there. But we, I was lucky I never felt anything like that my main worry was once with the later Air Marshall [cough] one of the engines stopped when we were about a hundred miles off the eh Horn of Africa. Anyway very fortunately it picked up again, he turned for home and he got there ok. And there was a little emergency airfield right on the Horn of Africa a place called Alular. There was actually a lighthouse there which they kept on during the war. I sent a signal to say we were heading for Alular and by the time we got there the engine was still going along. So we decided we go the other hundred miles to the little airfield at Mendicasin[?] now it is on the laps of Buckaso [unclear] on the borders of Italian and British Somaliland.But eh I can’t remember any other fellows got tired particulary but then again we didn’t see much of other Crews. There were three or four detachments at Mendicasin a place called Shushibab [?] also in the middle of the Horn of Africa and Socotra in Aden itself.So we were all split up, two or three aircraft at each back to Aden for then servicing. So eh but there were chaps on the Squadron after we started getting reserves eh that eh I didn’t know. I met one of them after the war by accident being the Second Pilot of a plane. We lost eh in the year I was there four aircraft. Two crashed and were burned up, sadly they was with them and eh one it was a flight [cough] as the one I done to Nairobi with the Pilot, Navigator and Wireless Operator. They set off to go to Khartoum and they were never heard of again. No hide nor hair, no wireless message of any sort, no emergency. They were never heard of or seen again sad. And one, one ditch in the Gulf of Aden eh the Pilot didn’t survive but eh two, two of the Crew were picked up,they were still alive when they got to them. But of course they finished Operations privations and problems they had was life threatening to them under those circumstances they wouldn’t go back on flying probably, but there we are.
CB. What was the major concern about flying over the sea?
OG. Well we just took, took it as a matter of course. Eh we agreed if we had to land we would all stick with the aircraft and the dingy. That reminds me of something you mentioned earlier about eh, eh a chap who, that was what you call sabotage. [cough] One of the chaps who was on our Squadron 621 has got something on the internet which I have got a copy of. And eh they were the first aircraft on our Squadron to get out and land in East Africa. And when they did the first Major Service they found that eh if you go in the, drop in the water there is an explosive that goes of which inflates, causes the dingy to be inflated. Well after they got to East Africa and had the first Major Service, this eh bomb, I will call it the explosive thing it wasn’t there [cough] and something else was broken. They found out that the tall bedding[?] where we all got ready for the big trip out to prime[?] the aircraft there had been a saboteur and he had taken this bomb inflator out, it wouldn’t inflate, and he had broken something else, battered it with a hammer. The signs were quite apparent and apparently when they reported this back, this chap was found and eh executed as a saboteur. But the CO told them, he said “You are jolly lucky to have got here.” But anyway that was it. So you couldn’t tell but eh it didn’t bother me, things kept going over the sea. I got so I could tell the wind speed and direction from the white caps and things like that, little side issues that come with experience.
CB.So that is an important part about navigation isn’t it, how do you navigate over the sea?
OG. Dead reckoning and there were no radio beacons. There are small ones within twenty miles of the little airstrips, something like that but that is no good if you are three or four hundred miles away. And em very fortunately the period in between the monsoons was relatively calm and the wind was pretty steady so it was a big help that was. In the Monsoons we didn’t fly unless we had to eh it was eh, it was during the monsoon that we flew out to Socotra and landed and for the first time I was very nearly air sick. ‘Cause the winds changed round and it comes from the South West back towards India and it hits Socotra where there was the mountains and it goes up and down them and forms eddies. And eh the late Air Marshall had our aircraft there and he hit a monster air pocket coming in because of this turbulence and crashed the aircraft. One of the Ground Crew who had seen it said they had dropped from about fifty feet straight onto the ground and set it on fire. Fortunately, they all got out of the different escape hatches and the Pilot told them to clear of quick because the depth charges blew up in about thirty seconds. There was a bit of a [pause] fire engine at Socotra, it came down and the Pilot told them to clear of quickly in case these blew up, which they did. I lost my parachute, they had taken our aircraft because there’s wouldn’t start. [cough] I left my parachute in, fortunately I got me Navigation kit and bag out. But Sandy Phillip, one of our Crew, Wireless Operator he left some personal things in, photographs of his wife, they all went to blazes so there we are.
CB. Good thank you we are just going to pause there, just finally where were you demobbed and when?
OG. Hednesford
CB. Where was that?
OG. [pause] I am getting now I can’t remember place names, I can point to them on the map, Hednesford is in Staffordshire. It was eh eh a regular station but they used it as a demob centre. And eh when I appeared there for my demob there was a chap there that had been in the very first mob I was in at Aberystwyth five years before. He was a Flight Lieutenant as well we recognised each other, so that was rather interesting to me. I, but you see some of those early group photos of ITW and OTU be interesting to know how many of those chaps survived ‘cause most of them would go into Bomber Command Aye.
CB. Right thank you.
CB. Right so now Oliver we have covered a lot of things in you Air Force side. Just give us a snippet of what you done in Civilian life afterwards. Before the war you had been with the Council.
OG. I will read this out.
CB. No just give us the main points.
OG. Exactly what you want yeah.
CB. Just the main points, we are on yes.
OG. Right, In autumn 1946 I resumed my job in the Treasures Department in the Costing Office. Furnishing costs on the various jobs undertaken by the road maintenance teams. All the work on maintenance, of all various buildings owned by the Council, the Town Hall the Pavilion Gardens, the Baths, Sewage Works, Water Works and all the Council Houses. The Gas Works and Electricity undertaking which we also owned were nationalised next year and all that work was carried out by the Surveyors Department. In 1963 [cough] I moved to the Highways Department on Market Street and put in charge of the Office and Highways stores for eight years. A very interesting part of the job because this is where eventually it was all happening. Then in 1971 I returned to the Surveyors department as Chief Clerk until local Government reorganisation in 1974 when I became a Senior Administrator in the Technical Services Department, which dealt with similar work over the now grouped North Derbyshire towns of Borough of High Peak. Taking retirement in 1979 I also served on a council committee of admin officers in like departments. I always considered myself very lucky to have married my wife Marjorie who known and loved by such a wide circle of people until here death in 2008. We enjoyed interesting holidays over England, Scotland and Wales being members of both the National Trust and English Heritage. A recent check reveals that we had visited over 120 of the National Trust venues many of them several times. [cough] In 1951 jointly with my Sister Margaret we bought the first Vespa Scooter to be sold in Buxton which allowed me to expend my, expand my horizons over surrounding counties. In fact I went to the last weekend of the Festival of Britain in 1951 and stayed with friends in Teddington. I bought my first car in 1965 a lovely little Wolsey Hornet which went out of production three years later. I had a car up to 2008 but failing eyesight caused me to give up. My training as a Navigator gave me a particular interest in travelling round our country and I was able to do much of it on B roads which was still quiet. For sporting activities I played in Buxton College first eleven cricket team with [cough] my lifelong friends of Harold [cough] Barstow and Ken Loundes during the summer of 1937 a team which never lost a match. Whilst at Teddington I played with the second team of one of the local clubs for two seasons visiting a variety of grounds in the London area. During my time in the RAF I played for my Station on three occasions, at Aberystwyth, Brighton on the County Ground and at Odiham. After playing tennis in Buxton local parks I became a member and later treasurer of Buxton Gardens Lawn Tennis Club. Situated at the end of the Promenade and now a car park. One year my partner and I won the mixed doubles championship. During this period I was a member of main committee of the Buxton Lawn Tennis Championship held every year on both grass and hard courts. It finished in 1954 due to rapid demand for expenses we actually had the [cough] all England Ladies Championships at Buxton. Wimbledon wanted it but because we had it first they couldn’t get it until this period when the Buxton Council had to stop on[?] our new tennis tournament. On the horticultural side I hope my Father with his larger op [unclear] for seven years until he died. When I later went to Moseley Road I managed to have a good floral display in containers and troughs both in the front and sides of the house and on the back patio. Many eh of the flowers I grew from seed. In 1980 I was invited to join the Buxton Archaeological and History Society where I was eventually made a life member and at the time of speaking in 2016 I am the longest active member there. I still, the last talk I gave was at the AGM in February this year. I had a particular interest in Buxton history particularly the development of local Government and the first local board in 1859 the late Mr Glyn Jones [unclear] Chief of High Peak kindly gave access to the early records. I addressed the Society on a number of occasions and contributed at various times to the periodic and newsletter which the subscribed, which eh was started doing in my term as Chairman. My most important work was to make a study of the subscribers to the Buxton Ballroom in the Crescent which from when it opened in 1788 until the final year in 1840 no one else appears to have done it in the detail I went to. So I like to think that I made a reasonable contribution to Buxton history. In eighteen nine, sorry in 1986 I met my Mike Langham and Colin Wills who just completed their first book Buxton Waters in type script and they asked me to read their rough draft in case they had made any statements to which the Buxton Residents would raise their eyebrows. This is the start of a happy improved friendship which included their next six books or so. We were all delighted when Mike was awarded a Doctorate in local history and saddened by his early death. From about 1962 I started making a collection of antique boxes, tea caddies, desk boxes and snuff boxes and various items of tring which after giving some to friends will eventually go to the National Trust. After giving about fifty of our Fathers collection to the local museum and art gallery and twenty or so to friends in memory of our Parents the remainder are willed to the Buxton and Opera House Trust. When the Neighbourhood Watch Scheme was set up I was a representative of Moseley Road for the first ten years of its existence passing it on when I was eighty years of age, quite an interesting job. In about 1990 I was invited to join the Committee of Friends of Buxton Hospital on which I served for a number of years helping with efforts to raise money. At one time I was the Chairman this brought me a whole new spectrum of friends of course. Because of my knowledge of local history I have been sought of for various local publications from 1984 to 2015 for which due acknowledgement was printed. I now found at the age of eighty, ninety five I am consulted for my memory of the late 1920’s and 30’s, all rather a pleasure I never expected to have.
CB. Brilliant that is really good.
OG. I have had my finger in a lot of pies, I have been very lucky I have had a very interesting life.
CB. Thank you very much Oliver.
OG. I hope that is roughly what you want.
CB. I think that will do exactly what we want.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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interview with Oliver Gomersal
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-05-30
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Hugh Donnelly
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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01:35:43 audio recording
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eng
Type
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Sound
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AGomersalO160530
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated S Coulter
Description
An account of the resource
Oliver Gomersal was navigator with 621 Squadron stationed in East Africa and Aden. On 2 May 1944 his Wellington successfully attacked a German submarine, U852.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
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Indian Ocean
Yemen (Republic)
Yemen (Republic)--Aden
Yemen (Republic)--Socotra
Kenya
Kenya--Nairobi
Africa
Temporal Coverage
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1944-05-02
621 Squadron
aircrew
navigator
submarine
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/356/5771/AFirthJB160706.2.mp3
5b178253d70f57f1c2b6516ac6eff4bd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Firth, John
John Firth
J B Firth
Description
An account of the resource
11 items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer John Bernard Firth (1924-2016, 1850441 Royal Air Force), his logbook, a home-made prisoner of war Christmas card, and seven photographs. John Firth was a flight engineer with 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe June to August 1944. He was shot down in August 1944 on his 20th operation and became a prisoner of war at Stalag Luft 7.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by John Firth and catalogued by and Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-06
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Firth, JB
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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CB. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 6th of July 2016 I am in Slough with John Firth who was a Flight Engineer on 50 Squadron and he is going to talk about his life and particularly his RAF Experiences. John what are the first things that you remember?
JB. Well, well after leaving School?
CB. No the first things you remember in life with your Parents where were you born and what did you do?
JB. Oh, I was born, I was born in Yorkshire in a little village called Thurnscoe and, and we moved down when I was five years old to, to Slough. Em, and we moved down because my Father got a bit of a chest problem with the dust and that and so we moved down here. He did quite well then afterwards em, in the building trade. I personally left school at, at fourteen and eh I got a little job for the Co-op as an errand boy and I, I had that for about eighteen months. After which I went into a factory em it’s called Sweeties and eh I, I stayed in there until I was called up at eighteen. And so when I went into the RAF I went to Padgate where, where we got introduced to all the rights and wrongs and legal side of things and I done about three months there. Then I went to, “where was it?”
CB. You went to Locking.
JB. Locking it was Locking, I em which was a Flight Mechanics course, that took about three months and then “what did I do then” I have lost my bit of paper.
CB. What were you learning at Locking?
JB. Engineer, Engines mostly other, other, other fellows were aircraft, that’s the aircraft em [pause].
CB. That was all types of aero engine was it?
JB. Any type whatever was fitted to the aeroplanes. So we took that, that didn’t last very long and I, I was, I went to “where was it?”
CB. To Colerne.
JB. To Colerne.
CB. To the MU at Bath at Colerne, yeah.
JB. And from Colerne I went to. I went to, I was posted to.
CB. To St Athan.
JB. To St Athans, St Athans.
CB. What did you do there?
JB. I took on the Flight Engineers course.
CB. What did that involve, what was involved in the Flight Engineers course?
JB. That involved more Engineering knowledge, more then for Airframes as well but that, that, that’s took about three months.
CB. And how broad was that, what other things Airframes, Engines what else?
JB. Airframes and Engines.
CB. What else, hydraulics?
JB. Hydraulics and whatever is going to be in the near future for me. Em from there I got, I went to Scampton waiting for me Crew and was there a few weeks when I got posted again to Wigsley where I picked me Crew up and then, which they had been flying on Blenheims for a number of weeks and months and eh, and so with a four engined bomber they had to have an Engineer.
CB. They’d been on Wellingtons.
JB. Sorry.
CB. They had been on Wellingtons.
JB. They had been on Wellingtons, yes. Where were we?
CB. So from Wigsley, what were you flying at Wigsley?
JB. Flying Stirling’s at Wigsley and had a very short course there to contradict what we had already learned on the Lancaster, every thing was electric on Stirling’s, electric undercarriage, flaps and that sort of thing.
CB. And this was and HCU?
JB. Yeah at Wigsley.
CB. Then what?
JB. And once we done that we, we, we moved Crew then, we were all satisfied with the Crew, they seemed to be satisfied with me.
CB. How did you Crew up in the first place?
JB. Well we met, well I met the NC, the NCOs in the Sergeants Mess and they introduced me to the two Officers who were the Pilot and the Bomb Aimer so from there we went to Syerston didn’t we?
CB. From Wigsley you went to Syerston.
JB. To Syerston, where we did a short course on sort of Affiliation sort of thing.
CB. That was the Lancaster again, that was the Lancaster Finishing School.
JB. Yes that’s right and then.
CB. So when you were at the Finishing School what did you do then at the Finishing School in the Lancaster?
JB. Well we got, we immediately went to 50 Squadron and early June was our first Op.
CB. Which year are we now, which year 1944 and the first op?
JB. It was Stuttgart, woof, we didn’t get there, it got cancelled so we turned so we missed a little bit of something. Em and from there on we, as a Crew we gelled very well together and eh.
CB. So you went to Stuttgart on your first Op why was that abortred.
JB. That I never found out but it just got aborted by radio.
CB. How far were you on the trip?
JB. It was well over the North Sea so we turned back, we turned back and from then on like I said the Crew gelled very well and then [background microphone noise]
CB. Keep going.
JB. Until the last OP.
CB. So what other trips did you do?
JB. Stuttgart, Keil, Gelsenkirchen and a lot, a lot of them were in France helping the, the Soldiers that were on the ground because we just invaded we just went into France that was what we were doing.
CB. They were daylight raids,
JB. Pardon.
CB. They were daylight raids was they over France.
JB. No some was night time, most of them was in night time in Germany and there was a, one trip we went to was the [hesitant] Les Desaurant[?] I think it was a Marshalling Yard south of, south of Paris we went for two days running there because we didn’t do the first job and the second job, the second time we were on went. We got shot up there, there was a big hole underneath the [unclear] turret, the Skipper couldn’t hold the kite, hold the aircraft steady because it was too, he had no help. The trimmer, one of the trimmers had gone. So my job, I had to go and repair it, which I did.
CB. So this is on the tail plane, the trimmer on the tail plane?
JB. That’s right.
CB. So how did you repair that?
JB. Well with the eh dinghy, there is a certain amount of eh space when I pulled the wires together which had been cut. So I doubled them back and, and tied them up with the tail plane and every time I moved, like this, it moved the trimmer. And the Skipper kept moaning at me [laugh] but it worked, it worked anyway. So when we landed, we crashed because one of the, one of the tyres were flat and dug in and shot over and we. I think it was a right off but we all got out.
CB. Can you just us through that, so you come in, did you know the tyre was punctured when you were on approach.
JB. No I didn’t ‘cause it only looked exactly the same as a good wheel, well it, it had a slice in it.
CB. The Pilot had no idea he was going to experience this inbalance?
JB. No he didn’t.
CB. Ok, so what happened, as soon as he touched down?
JB. As soon as he touched down it, it swung, dug in like.
CB. On the runway, on the concrete runway.
JB. It shot us off the runway and but em.
CB. Which way?
JB. Port side, Port side and that was it, well the Ground Crew told me the following morning we was very, very lucky because after the trimmers and all that, they had these rods that worked the elevators and the, and the rudders one of those was split almost in half. So it was very lucky that didn’t bend otherwise we would have been in trouble.
CB. So the under, the tyre, the wheel dug into the runway did the undercarriage collapse, what happened?
JB. No not really it just dug in, the damage the shells hit it with damaged all the tailplane so we was very lucky on that one.
CB. So on these circumstances what did they do, take the tail of and change it?
JB. I don’t know, I don’t really know, we didn’t fly in it again [unclear] it was a right off.
CB. So you had to have a new aeroplane?
JB. Well I suppose, yes.
CB. Was it new or did they just give you another one?
JB. I don’t know, don’t know.
CB. So which flight, how many raids was this. How many trips had you done at that stage?
JB. At that stage?
CB. Just roughly.
JB. Let me look in me book. [pages turning]
CB. We are just looking at the list,I’ll hang on.
JB. Something after that was an NFT.
CB. Right.
CB. So this seems to have been the sixth Op that you went on, and eh so what happened after that?
JB. Eh, everything went well we did a few [unclear] and another Stuttgart and so forth. I say we gelled very well until August the 8th, 7th and 8th.
CB. What happened then?
JB. We got shot down.
CB. Ok can you take us through that. So was it a Fighter or flak?
JB. It was a Fighter.
CB. What was your target that day?
JB. It was a raid on Sepperaville [?] and when we got there [unclear] we had a wireless confirmation to stop bombing, or they stopped bombing. So we carried the bombs and we were going to sort of drop in the South of England, not on England [laugh] and we got the Navigator to give us a route between Le Havre and Lauren it would take us where we wanted to be and it was about midnight and we was, we was, the Gunners decided, warned us we had, had a visitor which was a Fighter and they. It was round about eight or nine hundred yards, or feet I don’t know. Then he started getting closer, and closer until the Rear Gunner said do a Corks, Corkscrew Skip put down to port ‘cause he is on the port side and down we went quickly, I had, I was standing then and eh [laugh] I had nothing to hold onto and so gravity through me to the ceiling of the canopy and when he pulled out I dropped down onto me knees. I got up and this Fighter had opened fire and strafed us right across the wing tip, or wings from wing tip to wing tip. One shell went through in between the Skipper and I and broke the front, front glass and that and a fire started, fire. The Skipper said we will try and put this fire out, I pressed all the buttons that were required. Then he said “abandon aircraft.”
CB. Where was the fire?
JB. The fire, right along the wings, wings. I was coming out of petrol which was spread out obviously and wings well on fire he said “is that it” I say, [unclear] he said “abandon aircraft.” I stayed there with him, because it was my duty to look after him as well as me. I found his parachute, gave it to him, but he took it off, he hardly put it on. He put it alongside himself because he was trying to hold, hold the aircraft in a steady position for people.
CB. So people could get out?
JB. Yeah, so some got out the back, I, and then he said to me, “go on get out John.” And I went down into the Bomb Aimers place where the trap door was and I couldn’t believe, this is true, but the hole you get out of was halved because the cover had been drawn back by the slip stream and jammed in this hole. I kicked it, I pushed it [laugh] I couldn’t move it. So I started to be a bit concerned. I didn’t quite know what to do at that time but well I thought half of that is not too little for me because I can get through that. So I had my ‘chute on of course, had me back to this thing that stuck up inside and em, I slid down, well I couldn’t get out because me ‘chute had trapped because I didn’t allow that in sorts. But there I was, the plane was going along and I am out, with me legs outside and you want to know what I feel like. I felt I was going to loose me legs, frightened me to death, this is true. And I, and I pushed and I kicked me legs and me boots went and, and I panicked but suddenly me brain stopped, started working and the straps on the parachute harness is only held on by a thin cord so that it gives you the height, the height when the ‘chute opens. So I gave it a good clout and I went out and I held this parachute with one hand and pulled the cord with the other, pulled the ring with the other and it opened but it took me a little while no sooner had it opened and I suppose about a hundred feet and I touched down. It took me a little while, that’s why I, I was out I was landed pretty near the aircraft. I say that it was within a mile or two, it got in very fast. I got down stuffed my ‘chute around as best I could, got out round to this road or lane, like a country lane and then I was caught because three Germans were in, came along with their guns and all that and picked me up. They took me back, took me back to the Headquarters in this em, in this bike and sidecar. They gave me a seat in the car and one was on the front of the, the car and the other one was on the pillion and the other was the driver. The one on the pillion had a gun at me head all the way back just in case I suppose he thought I might, and that was it for that night.
CB. So were you the last out of the aircraft or?
JB. I think I must have been.
CB. What happened to the Pilot?
JB. He got killed.
CB. He didn’t get out?
JB. He didn’t get out, the Navigator didn’t get out and the Wireless Operator I don’t know what happened to him because after the war I met my Mid Upper Gunner and he filled me with a bit of things that I missed, He said he spoke to Don Mellish at the back door and he walked back, he went back in.
CB. Mellish went back in?
JB. Yeah
CB. To do what?
JB. He probably didn’t want to.
CB. To get out?
JB. It’s a I don’t know.
CB. So Don Mellish was the Wireless Operator.
JB. Yes that’s right and as I say the Mid Upper Gunner spoke to him and he said “I don’t know what he went back for” he went back and of course he went out himself.
CB. How did Arthur Meredith the Rear Gunner get out?
JB. That I don’t know, I was too busy up the front.
CB. I wondered if you found out afterwards.
JB. No, no they just went.
CB. But the only person killed, there were three killed were there?
JB. There were three killned.
CB. What about the Navigator what stopped him getting out?
JB. I don’t know, because, I don’t know.
CB. Wither he tried the back or not I don’t know, I don’t know because routine was Bomb Aimer, Me, Navigator or other way round, he didn’t pass me so I don’t know what happened to him. Is this, all this going down.
CB. We are all right. These are the realities of those things aren’t they.
JB. It’s, it’s.
CB. It is an emotional experience.
JB. Yes it is I am the luckiest man in the round, I should have been there with my mate.
CB. I know what you mean.
JB. Now they have gone.
CB. You done a brilliant job getting out just holding, you held the parachute. It wasn’t attached to you, you just held it?
JB. No it was attached.
CB. It still was attached.
JB. Yeah, attached, it’s like a board it’s, the whole ‘chute is planted on this board.
CB. Because it is a front parachute.
JB. Yeah.
CB. Chest parachute.
JB. That’s right.
CB. And what, what type of parachute does the Pilot have does he have a chest parachute or he normally?
JB. Yes he has a chest parachute he preferred instead of the sitting on one ‘cause he is a tall man.
CB. Ok
JB. So that is probably the reason, that’s why I had to find his ‘chute for him or look after him.
CB. So on the Lancaster there are three escape hatches are there? One at the front where the Bomb Aimers position is, the other through the lid where the Pilot is, is that right?
JB. He think he got out the top, yes but.
CB. And the other is the door at the back.
JB. There is a door at the back.
CB. Is there any other.
JB. No [unclear]
CB. And the Rear Turret pivots so the idea is the.
JB. Sometimes they could.
CB. Roll out backwards.
JB. Yeah, go out backwards. Wither that is true or not I don’t know.
CB. So when the aircraft was hit, what happened to the controls, the Pilot was struggling by the sound of it to keep control, why was that.
JB. He was struggling, yes, because we was well on fire, when I got out. I looked up the flames was the, the width of the aircraft or the wingspan and it was amazing, amazing.
CB. The Lancaster had self sealing fuel tanks but with the level of damage presumably that wasn’t going to work.
JB. Yeah, they had all that but they must have had a leak somewhere.
CB. Did the Rear Gunner get a shot at this Fighter or not?
JB. Apparently from what I was told by the Mid Upper Gunner, they, they had it confirmed that they shot it down.
CB. Oh did they.
JB. Yeah but that I wouldn’t know.
CB. But the Squadron record perhaps confirms that?
JB. Yeah.
CB. So now you have landed, the German Soldiers have taken you in the side car to the Head Quarters, then what?
JB. Yeah, the Head Quarters Em, oh there, em.
CB. That’s the picture of.
JB. That’s me and my wife when we went back to France.
CB. Right, that’s a sort of Chateau.
JB. That’s it, that’s where they held me but not in there, there is a little shed next to it. They said put me there and they put a Guard sort of thing. And in the morning, they kept, all these soldiers kept coming in and having a look and all that and I “what they looking for” you know and eh when I got out and had a look ‘cause they let me, I had to have a bit of fresh air. What that was, was a urinal was there just by this window [laugh] and they was having a gaze at me while I was having one, it wasn’t funny but.
CB. No, so what did they do, they gave you food and water?
JB. Yeah they gave me, they gave me some gruel or something for lunch, for breakfast.
CB. What is gruel?
JB.Something like porridge, something like that. Em, they gave me a pair of clogs suffice, they did suffice ‘cause I couldn’t get on with them and I took em off and eh.
CB. Because your flying boots came off before you jumped.
JB. Yeah they came off because I was kicking them away, trying to sort of get out eh it frightened me to death.
CB. What sort of height do you think you were at before you actually got out.
JB. I don’t, I should think when I went out which would be about fifteen hundred or two thousand feet. Not very high enough to have a good swing, you know? We was flying at ten thousand feet anyway.
CB. Oh were you, that’s quite low.
JB. Then we had this dive and a cork screw, down one way, down the other and so forth.
CB. And then pull up again.
JB. Yeah, yeah.
CB. So after they have given you the gruel and something and water and then what.
JB. Oh they took me to Luanne em I was interviewed by a eh an Officer of some description he told me off for not saluting him. I said we don’t salute people with no head dress. I can remember that actually he got onto me about the Bombing doing Bombing and hospitals and all about that sort of thing. Told me off and then he took me back through em Luanne into this it looked like a, I don’t know I was on the [unclear] covered in wire netting it was a building but several shelters, sheds a brick building, this wire netting at front. I could look across and there was dormitories and that’s where these soldiers was in this dormitory. It looked as though it was in something like a Church business that church eh eh College or something like that, I don’t know quite what it was. I was there for a few days and they put me on a train to sort of don’t know this place where I got interviewed again by the, by the people there.
CB. Were they Air Force people or were they?
JB. This one that they took me to at first, there were a lot of soldiers there and eh I walked through this, this marquee where these soldiers were lying on that, you know, looking for bed space and somebody shouts “Johnnie Firth” and it was one of my class mates at school. He had been in the, what do you call it Troopers.
CB. Paratroopers.
JB. Paratroopers, yeah but they had been caught and they took me then from there on the train, it took a little while to eh Stalag Luft 7.
CB. Where is that?
JB. Where I ended up.
CB. Yes where is Stalag Luft 7?
JB. Its in [unclear].
CB. Czechoslovakia.
JB. I’ve got the name of the eh here the village there, but I don’t know where it is now.
CB. Ok just going back a bit what was the questioning that the Captors did so you, at the first em interrogation, what did they ask you?
JB. All sorts of thing you know but all I could answer was number, rank, name they didn’t threaten me with anything much. I was taught, or some bloke said they threatened to shoot them if they didn’t tell us. I didn’t go through any of that.
CB. And the second interview, interrogation further along, what was that?
JB. That was that sort of thing, sort of where he started mouthing on about being a you know criminals or something like that, but that didn’t last either [unclear] I got to sort of Silesia or Stalag Luft 7 A friend, a friend of mine was there, that I had done an Engineers course, but he had failed the course and I got on a bit further you know than he and he was shot down on his first trip, another Yorkshire man you know [laugh].
CB. Had he been recoursed to something other than Flight Engineer or did they put him through the course again?
JB. No he did the course eventually he passed yes.
CB. OK. So what did you find out what happened to the rest of your Crew.
JB. No, I the Mid Upper Gunner who eh told me, filled me in about what was happening.
CB. Bill Johnstone.
JB. He died the year Christmas the year I saw him, I didn’t know he was going to die. Because somebody organised this, this eh trip back to France for me and my wife and we went back to see the eh the graves, it’s one grave with three people in it.
CB. Oh they did have the Pilot, Bomb Aimer and Navigator they had.
JB. Yes they did.
CB. Sorry Wireless Operator not the Navigator who got out, it was the Bomb Aimer was it?
JB. The Bomb Aimer yes Eddie Earnest.
CB. So the Pilot, Navigator
JB. Eddie Earnest made up our Crew that night, the Bombing Leader actually. He ended up, oh he ended up in India in charge of the eh Squadron out there. I met him afterwards of course at a reunion only once. I went to Lafrenaise twice you know to pay my respects. The people, the French people were very nice, very good.
CB. What, did the aircraft disintegrate or did it land in tact and burn out on the ground.
JB. No it blew up.
CB. So the Pilot was never found, was he, was he in the plane.
JB. No the three, they had three bodies that what it.
CB. And they did, right.
JB. [Unclear] so the Navigator didn’t get out either.
CB. No.
JB. We had a time bomb on that went off at seven o’clock in the morning and I was that close. Well I heard it eh you know. The thing, it landed in some sort of a wood.
CB. You are talking about the main bomb. The Cookie went of.
JB. Yeah it might have been the cookie, I don’t know about that, don’t know. I thought it was timed, I thought it was timed.
CB. So that would be a free fall.
JB. I don’t think we had a Cookie on at that time, about a thousand pounder because we were so close to our Troops we were.
CB. Of course, you wouldn’t want the bombs to spread out.
JB.The German Troops were so close, [hesitates] there is a map of it as well, now just recently, I don’t if it was on line is it Peter?
Peter. Yeah there was a local paper did a story about it didn’t they when you came back.
JB. On.on line there is what I have just been through again.
CB. If we could call that up that could be really useful.
Peter. Pretty sure it was to do.
JB. After that on line there is a map which shows you Shepeville [?] and, and the Forces that were there.
CB. It would be useful to sort of pick that up, so can we just go now to Silesia to Stalag Luft 7 so how big was that, how many people?
JB. About eight thousand I think something of a rough guess.
CB. And what Nationalities were there?
JB. Mostly British, mostly British.
CB. ‘cause with the title Stalag Luft in theory they were all Aircrew but were they.
JB. Yeah well yes.
CB. Were they all Aircrew?
JB. Yes in my experience and we knew about the audacity thing where they shot all those Aircrew.
CB. Stalag Luft 3.
JB. We got a bit of news about that.
CB. You did? And what was the mix of Prisoners there, was it the whole range of ranks?
JB. Em NCOs
CB. Only NCOs was it.
JB. More or less, yes. There were one or two that were eh, the Camp Commander for instance.
CB. What was he?
JB. He was eh, eh Second Lieutenant something like that.
CB. He was an Army man was he?
JB. Yeah we did have one Army bloke there, I think anyway, can’t remember now.
CB. How were you housed in what sort of buildings.
JB. In the first instance, there’s pictures somewhere, never mind, eh little huts, there was all these little huts with about ten blokes in each hut something like that but then they was building the, built this one outside, outside, outside the Camp.
CB. The wire.
JB. Along side of it and they were like dormitories, they had rooms in there and there was about thirteen to a room that sort of thing; just thinking back now. Got a picture of the em the, the sort of bedding is on bunks it is, it is twelve bunks in one block. They got three on the floor, three in the middle and three on the top and then you have the same thing alongside of it, they had sort of twelve to a block. You could get farted on from up there and farted on from down [laugh]. It wasn’t very pleasant.
CB. And what were you lying on was it planks, bare wood or what?
JB. Bedding.
CB. Oh there was bedding, what was the bedding made of?
JB. Hard stuff just like packed straw, something like that and blankets that’s all we had.
CB. What about heating?
JB. Heating, for heating we had, what heating or eating?
CB. Yes the heating as well as the eating but for heating in the rooms was there any heating?
JB. Either really we in the, in the rooms there was these little stoves but it was getting the fuel for them you know, that was difficult but the big, where the big eh other was no heating because it was getting, when I was there anyway, that, of the picture I have, I think was taken at eh Stalag 3a because that is where we ended up after the long march at Stalag 3a. It was an Army Camp and the weather was picking up then, it was getting warmer, it em.
CB. Where em, what about the food was there a big Mess Hall or how did you get the food dispensed?
JB. I have got a picture of that as well actually, it em eh, they used to fetch it round and it was soup in big bowels you know and that one bowl would have to feed two hundred men and you would have bread sometimes. They gave you bread or something like that. The meat was, was in these soups what, what meat there was. We used to look at these in a strand, it was stranded, “I’ve got a bit” [laugh].
CB. What did you eat in, because you didn’t have mess tins of your own, so what did they give you to eat from.
JB. Oh they gave us something, I can’t remem. You would pick up a tin or something you know? And things like that, but, but I made a cup out of mine, created a thing you know, sort of little handle made a thing of and you tightened a piece of string. Made it out of a little eh.
CB. Ingenuity.
JB. Yeah ingenuity. [laugh].
CB. Now what about Red Cross parcels?
JB. They were, they few and far between one another yeah eh but when we did get one sometimes in the beginning it was shared by sort of that half a dozen blokes what is shared with what is in there. Which was tinned, tinned stuff what em, cigarettes, I suppose meat and that sort of thing. A bit of cheese a tin with a bit of cheese in or something like that. But you would have to cut it up into bits to share it out.
CB. Did you get tinned milk?
JB. Tinned milk, can’t remember actually to tell the truth I can’t remember much about it.
CB. What was the date on which you were shot down.
JB. Eh seventh or eighth of August Midnight.
CB. Nineteen forty four.
JB. Nineteen forty four.
CB. So you were in Stalag Luft 7 for more that six months.
JB. Oh yeah, yeah.
CB. And as the end of the War came, what happened to you then?
JB. Em well we was at, we was at Stalag 3a.
CB. How did you come to move from Seven?
JB. First of all the, the em, the American Army released us or wanted to release us and we all run out, a lot of us got on their lorries and all that, they come to fetch us and they, then the Germans managed to a Machine Gunner and said “better get down otherwise you will get that.” So we all went in and they wouldn’t let us come. They didn’t agree with what the Americans was doing.
CB. The Russians wouldn’t let them do it would they?
JB. Yeah.
CB. Who was it/
JB. The Russians was there.
CB. So who was it who came?
JB. They just crossed the rivers there eh, they just crossed this river.
CB. The Oder was it?
JB. Sorry.
CB. The Oder.
JB. The Oder yeah, the Americans had got down as far as the Oder and they hadn’t crossed it, or they had crossed it ‘cause they came with their lorries to take us, but they went of without us. Because they was going to shoot us anyway.
CB. So who was going to shoot you, why didn’t they, if it was Germans, why didn’t they deal with the Germans?
JB. Well I don’t know, I think maybe it’s.
CB. Or was it the Russians who wouldn’t let you go?
JB. They still held us as Prisoners and told us all to get back in and we all went back to where we inhabited. The Russians did “Thank you Bert I am glad you came.” But the Americans came first, then the Russians took over, they came and with them coming all the Guards disappeared. They didn’t want to get hurt did they? Yes the Russians released us and they took us down to this river and we crossed by foot into the sort of the American Section if you like. The River Oder was that [unclear] but the Americans were that side of it and the Russians were this side of it. And that’s I suppose, but the Germans were still in there with us, you know, holding us at one time.
CB. So how did you come to leave then?
JB. The Russians took us to the river and we got of there, crossed the river and got on with the Yanks who took us from there up to, I don’t know what it was then just another sort of camp which was taken over now by the Allies.
CB. So you don’t, I was just trying to establish the sequence because you were in Stalag Luft 7, you then got to Stalag 3.
JB. Yeah.
CB. 3a so how did you get between those two?
JB. Walked.
CB. How far and how long?
JB. Three weeks walk.
CB. And what effect did that have on most of the Prisoners?
JB. Starvation, worst, snow and it was terrible, yeah, dead horses on the side of the road and what have you yeah [pause] I had forgotten all this.
CB. Was it one long column of prisoners or was it several columns doing different routes?
JB. It was one long column of us from Stalag Luft 7, there are, there were other columns like Stalag Luft 3 they were the closest to what we were apparently. They crossed, they were going one way we were going another way but eh this was and we were still with the Germans, the Germans was making us do this, they had dogs as well.
CB. They were forcing you to go towards the west. So how did you get food and water?
JB. How did we get food?
CB. How did you get food and water?
JB. How did you get food.
CB. How did you get food and water?
JB. Oh well they gave you at night, they would probably find you in a stable or something like that and they, they thery would have a field kitchen with like I said food or soup or that sort of thing. If you wanted to go to the toilet there was always one place where you could go sort of thing. That is in the yard and it was piles of this all over the place.[laugh] It was not very hygienic.
CB. So when you got to Stalag Luft, sorry Stalag 3 then what?
JB. Well we got put up, the soldiers put us up we was in, we was on the floor, sleeping on the floor to start with and eh, they moved us into another building that had these, these bunks and that, and eh one of the, one of the buildings was made out as temple by the Russians because we had some Russians in that Stalag, there were some Russians as well yeah. They got, what we heard was when they got released or we got released, they were straight back to the front where they were going to soldier on again. So many days, so many things, I can’t remember.
CB. So in the, in the March from Stalag Luft 7 to Stalag 3 what happened to peoples health and strength?
JB. Eh er there were three of us Jack Sidebottom and Bill Steiner and me self knitted together oh [unclear] Jack got a touch of the runs and he went right down the, right down the drain sort of, they had a sort of Hospital eh building but that was on the floor. I remember I sort of I washed off Bill eh Jacks’ trousers for him, he couldn’t do it.
CB. This was dysentery was it?
JB. Yes it was there was a lot of that.
CB. And what prompts dysentery, what makes it happen?
JB. Well there was little food and eh and if you eat anything that was rotten it was there. They had toilets there where you could have a chat with the next bloke ‘cause it was only a building. There was all these eh trenches covered with seats, toilet seats and you could have a fair old chat with people, I think that’s. I am ranting on, on.
CB. You are not, no it is the reality isn’t it?
JB. Yeah I suppose it could be.
CB. So you reached Stalag 3 and the Americans are looking after you there. What did they do about food because you do not want to eat too much as soon as you get in.
JB. When the Americans, they, they transported us to Brussels and we got flown home from there, from Brussels.
CB. Mm by whom, who flew you.
JB. RAF
CB. And you flew from there, Melsbroek was it and then into where?
JB.Eh; around Crewe around that area and then all we had on was burnt and the dressed us in that hospital blue, do you remember that? Just a blue flannel trouser and a blue flannel cover at the top[laugh] Then it blue, typical sickness thing.
CB. So for the people who had dysentery and other things how did they treat those?
JB. Well it,it just had to put up with it until it went away it was yeah.
CB. You come, when you land back here, what, what plane did you fly back in?
JB. Lancaster.
CB.Right, how many people in a Lancaster.
JB. Oh there was quite a lot, I would say , I don’t know, down the fuselage from, from the main spar down to the back, I would say about sixty peole, fifty or sixty people and then we would [unclear].
CB. And so you got back, what did they do as soon as you landed.
JB. Well they fed us and we was inspected for diseases and that sort of thing in a hanger, obviously if you got a lot of food, a bit difficult to eat, drink, stomachs went like that so you couldn’t eat much anyway.
CB. It is not good to have too much food when you haven’t been having it. So they kitted you out and then what?
JB. Once we got kitted out we went on leave, about six weeks I should think.
CB. And then after the leave where did they sent you because you were still technically in the Squadron.
JB. [Unclear] Eh I, I got posted to 71MU, “thank you, that’s all right” 71MU Slough,[unclear] and or the RAF had taken over the premier garage on the Bath road as a Camp, during the war and they, and they and I got posted there. I was obviously in the Sergeants Mess so I didn’t do a lot of work.[laugh] But eventually they decided to move. They moved from Slough up to the other side of Aylesbury.
CB. To Westcott.
JB. Westcott, yeah probably yeah that was one thing to the other side of, yeah.
CB. Or Bicester.
JB. Yeah.
CB. It was an MU was it?
JB. It was an MU.
CB. It went to Bicester 71.
JB. 71 and I went there as a, I was in charge of a gang [unclear] we went for dismantling aircraft and I wasn’t doing a lot of work, I was just making sure the lads got the eh themselves with a bed and that sort of thing. And then and that was at; Brize Norton they did a lot of work there.
CB. Was that an MU or was that an OTU?
JB. No that was, there was a Squadron there wasn’t there but as the MU people taking all these jobs.
CB. Yeah.
JB. They take the wings off and that sort of thing and then load it onto a Queen Mary and said good bye to it you know.
CB.The Queen Mary being the very big lorry.
JB. Yes that’s right [unclear]
CB. So now we are in 1946 aren’t we.
JB. Yes I haven’t come over then [?]
CB. When did you get demobbed?
JB. Eh; I’ve got it here, demobbed 1946.
CB. What time of year?
JB. What month, I don’t know.
CB. Summer, Winter, Ok then what did you do?
JB. Well what everybody does, have a good time. [laugh] I went back to Lincoln.
CB. What did you do there?
JB. I got a job with an aircraft factory just outside, Ah Woodford was it, Woodford.
CB. No at Lincoln it was Bracebridge Heath.
JB. Bracebridge Heath, that’s it. I got a job there working on aircraft that were still flying, not the big heavy bomber stuff but the[stops] Then I decided to come home again so I left and I come home and got a job at Hawker Aircraft at Langley and eh.
CB. You had been there before the war.
JB. No,no.
CB. You hadn’t?
JB. No before the war wa, I was at a factory called [unclear] engineering factory. The firm had another outlet at “what was that”
CB. White Waltham.
JB. White Waltham yeah but I wasn’t working there but that firm had another factory there.
CB. So how long did you work Hawker?
JB. At Hawkers, a couple of years and they moved over to London way from Combrook, it was Combrook they moved over from Combrook.
CB. They went to Kingston.
JB. And then I went to a firm, I forgot the name of it, sorry, I was there nineteen years. I went to British Airways, I was there seven years.
CB. At British Airways, at British Airways?
JB. British Airways, yeah and then I retired, I think. This is hard work.[laugh].
CB. Well we are resting now, thank you very much.
JB. Is that it?
CB. How did you come to meet Catherine, your wife, your future wife?
JB. The pub.
CB. Where was that?
JB. Good Companions, Slough.
CB. Slough ok and when were you married?
JB. 1961, 1961 I don’t know.
Unknown. When you got married must be 1951 was it?
JB and Unknown. [discussion as to when married]
CB. How old are your children?
JB. I have got no children.
CB. So that saved you a lot of money didn’t it?
JB. [laugh] a lot of heartache.
CB. Right ok so that is really good, thank you very much indeed.
CB. So we are just restarting to recover after the Bomber crash, then you had some links with the area, so what did you discover.
JB. Well there was a; this Gentleman that I met there, this Frenchman he, he had a little brother a brother younger than himself and that em when, in the explosion on the morning at seven o’clock his brother was sorting out something on the aircraft or something on what was left of the aircraft and the bomb went of and this man, “what’s his name” I was looking at it, [pause] he carried his lad or his brother from em from La Frenaise where we were to the nearest town which was Le Havre which had the Hospitals, but he died and carried him that far.
CB. So what had happened, the Bomb went of and what had happened to the boy?
JB. He died.
CB. Yes but what happened to him, did it blow him a long way away or what did it do. Do you know, what caused him to die in other words?
JB. No like I say he, he, within, with the explosion and then his brother which was this Gentleman that said or suggested at this time that I am taking the place of his brother friendly wise, but somebody else had told me he had carried his Brother to Le Havre.
CB. Le Havre, Hospital.
JB. Yeah, I’ve got a picture of him and he is sitting amongst the, a bit of, a bit of the engine, it’s all, none left of it, bits all over.
CB. They are all very distressing things these, because the aftermath of a crash, the unexpected.
JB. Yeah, but he is quite, and we; up to this year, last year, last Christmas we, we both swapped cards at Christmas from this fellow, Gentleman, fellow, I can’t think of his name.
CB. How did you come to meet him in the first place?
JB. Well I went to a, I went to a, not a reunion, I went when I went to Le Frenaise to pay my respects to the grave.
CB. At the cemetery?
JB. I met him there ‘cause they had made this ‘cause going there the had this little party sort of thing, plenty of people there, just as well. They were very nice to us.
CB. John how many times did you bale out?
JB. Well we baled out twice.
CB. Did you?
JB. Yes.
CB. What was the first reason?
JB. The first reason was everything stopped on the, on the Stirling and what was put to me before one of these things was because the, the oil filter on the Stirling was on the outside and just below the engines outside and they could easily freeze up and with all the engines stopping at the same time that is what happened and the Skipper said bale out but eventually he got it back going again. So I baled out, the two Gunners baled out and the Navigator didn’t go because I was, in the Stirling my position was in the middle of the aircraft not next to the Skipper and so I went out the back and we landed on the, then I heard this whistling and it was the Wireless Operator that was whistled me. He said “what do we do now” I said “go and see if we can get a telephone to get help.”
CB. Where were you?
JB. Sorry?
CB. Where was this?
JB. Lincolnshire, em and so we did walk to someone’s house and we got on the phone [unclear] through to the Police and I had no boots, so this Gentleman loaned me his slippers and having got to go back to Camp, they were nice slippers and I never sent them back. But I was brought up in front of the CO and he gave me a right nasty bollocking and he said.
CB. For having the slippers on, or for getting out of the aeroplane?
JB. No, for not sending the slippers back and “now” he said “you will go and pack them and you will write a letter of apology and you will fetch it to me and I will read it.” So I had to do it and took it back and he said “be careful in future you.” He said.
CB. So you did send back the slippers?
JB. I did send them back yeah, but that under threat wasn’t it.
CB. Right, so the aircraft returned?
JB. Yeah, so the aircraft returned and when he returned he returned with,with a Senior Pilot and I heard no more after that. I suggested that and the Skipper took it disgusted with his seniors.
CB. You are talking about the fault being the seizing up of the oil cooler?
JB. Yeah Unlicky wasn’t we, I was lucky, we was all lucky that one but I, I say I am the luckiest man in the World that was it twice.
CB. While we were on the Stirling just talk us through what your role was as Flight Engineer, first on the Stirling then on the Lancaster.
JB. Oh the Engineers job was to assist the Pilot every way you can, is to, you have to write a log, or keep a log of petrol, oil pressure, oil temperature, it all had to go down on the log. Do it every half hour or so or every hour and whatever else. You might get a fellow who can go back and eh join two bits of wire together[laugh] and cause lots of trouble for the Skipper then it is just not quite right, oh well.
CB. So here you are, your position in the Stirling was further back but on take off where would you be?
JB. In the Stirling on take off, I would be in the middle of the aircraft I’d be putting back the priming ‘cause when you start the engines the prime, the Engineer used to prime the engines from inside the aircraft where as in the Lanc they do it from the outside, don’t they? That’s what I would be doing, tidying up again.
CB. And how were the engines started with a trolley acc or cartridges?
JB. No trolley acc, the same as eh, the same as the Lanc.
CB. And then on take off the Pilot is controlling the throttles not the Engineer.
JB. He is not?
CB. In the Stirling on take of who is controlling the throttles, the Pilot or the Engineer?
JB. Em on the Stirling I don’t know but on.
CB. You weren’t anyway.
JB. I wasn’t but on a Lancaster I was. The Skipper would get it so far, he had four levers and, and until he got it running straight and then he would ask for full power and I did the business then because when you are on full power he can’t twiddle;
CB. And you are sitting on a, next to the Pilot on a Lancaster?
JB. Yeah it is a moveable seat and a lot of the time I would be standing, but the seat felt as a strap, it wasn’t a very comfortable seat.
CB. So you stood a lot?
JB. Yeah.
CB. The reason you got caught out on the corkscrew was because you was standing at the time, was it?
JB. Yes that right yeah.
CB.Talking about engines again, so to clarify on both aircraft all the throttle levers, all four of them were next to each other. When you run up the aircraft engines before take off how do you synchronise the engines and who does it?
JB. Well the Pilot does it.
CB. Ok so how does he do that?
JB. He does it for steering, steering purposes and so if he wants to sort of go this way he will give it a little bit of power on this engine and so forth and then when he comes up to the point where he’s got it ready for take off, two thirds of the way down the runway then it is up to the Pilot or the Engineer to sort of put it onto full power.
CB. You put your hand on it, left hand on the throttle and push them through the gate?
JB. No he used to have his hand on that and I had it underneath, likewise.
CB. Right,your left hand pushing it?
JB. Yeah I put ‘em up and tightened the what’s its name down, you loosen it off for him when he wants to come back and get the flying side, getting his flying in, so it is synchronise.
CB. So he is synchronising the engines in the air not on the ground is he.
JB. Not on the ground, no that’s for steering.
CB. Right and what about the pitch how did you deal with that?
JB. The pitch of the aircraft.
CB. No the pitch of the propellors?
JB. Eh I think you could only do, I don’t think.
CB. You would take of in fine pitch wouldn’t you?
JB. Fine pitch, going back now [pause] You take of in flying pitch, you leave it in flying pitch if you could possible get it there. Well you could do once you got on flying. On course stuff, they don’t go so well on course, do they?
CB. So in the cruise you are not going to be in fine pitch are you. You have got fine pitch for take off, so when do you change for cruise and what pitch do you put it in.
JB. [pause] I don’t know, I wouldn’t know that, I’ve forgotten what that sort.
CB. Ok it just comes out of the use of the throttles.
CB. Thanks
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with John Firth
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2016-07-06
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:30:01 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFirthJB160706
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Conforms To
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Pending review
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Description
An account of the resource
John Firth was a flight engineer with 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe June to August 1944. He was shot down in August 1944 on his 20th operation and became a prisoner of war at Stalag Luft 7.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
Poland--Tychowo
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
50 Squadron
aircrew
bale out
fear
final resting place
flight engineer
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
prisoner of war
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF St Athan
RAF Syerston
RAF Wigsley
sanitation
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
Stirling
the long march
training
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Nigel Moore
Description
An account of the resource
RAF Woodhall Spa was a Bomber Command station located in Lincolnshire, immediately south of the town of the same name. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><strong>See all Archive items</strong></a> | <strong><a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/?takeoff-stations=Woodhall+Spa&select-search-options%5B%5D=takeoff-stations&_token=mebTm5EIx2lRCtMWNwpmfHjqV5wzbPtEYox3Hnyq&losses_form=7f8a0f6148&orderby=surname&order=asc" target="_blank" rel="noopener">See all wartime losses</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/neatline/fullscreen/places#records/365" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Explore nearby</a></strong><br /><br />The station opened in February 1942 in <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=5+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">5 Group</a>. It was initially used as a satellite station by <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=106+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">106 Squadron</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Hampden" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Hampdens</a> from <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/5653" target="_blank" rel="noopener">RAF Coningsby</a>. <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=97+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">97 Squadron</a> with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Lancaster" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Lancasters</a> arrived in March 1942 and stayed until April 1943. It was replaced by the formation of <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=619+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">619 Squadron</a> with Lancasters. <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=617+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">617 Squadron</a> moved to Woodhall Spa in January 1944 and operated Lancasters, <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Mosquito" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Mosquitos</a> and a <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=P-51" target="_blank" rel="noopener">P-51</a>. The squadron used <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Tallboy" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Tallboy</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Grand+Slam" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Grand Slam</a> bombs. <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=627+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">627 Squadron</a> with Mosquitos arrived in April 1944. <br /><br />Refinements:<br /> <span style="font-size: small;"><code><span> <br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Artwork&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Artwork</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Correspondence&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Correspondence</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map.+Navigation+chart+and+log&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map. Navigation chart and log</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Diary&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Diary</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Moving+image&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Moving image</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Log+book+and+record+book&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Log book and record book</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Photograph&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Photograph</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Memoir&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Memoir</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Personal+research&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Personal research</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Clothing&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Clothing</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Poetry&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Poetry</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Decoration&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Decoration</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Service+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Service material</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Sound&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Sound</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Training+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Training material<br /></a><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Technical+aid&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Woodhall+Spa&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Technical aid<br /><br /></a></span></code> Item type refinement is covered in the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/faq">FAQ section</a>, questions 12 and 13. The Archive also comes with a range of tools for searching and browsing content: please see the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/help">help page</a>.</span>
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Woodhall Spa [entry point]
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Nigel Moore
Description
An account of the resource
<p>RAF Wigsley was a Bomber Command station located in Nottinghamshire, 8 miles (13 kms) west of Lincoln.</p>
<p><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=RAF+Wigsley" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><strong>See all Archive items</strong></a> | <strong><a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/?takeoff-stations=Wigsley&select-search-options%5B%5D=takeoff-stations&_token=mebTm5EIx2lRCtMWNwpmfHjqV5wzbPtEYox3Hnyq&losses_form=7f8a0f6148&orderby=surname&order=asc" target="_blank" rel="noopener">See all wartime losses</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/neatline/fullscreen/places#records/385" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Explore nearby</a></strong><br /><br />It opened in February 1942. <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=455+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">455 Squadron</a> of <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=5+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">5 Group</a> briefly operated <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Hampden" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Hampdens</a> from the station before, in April 1942, the station became the home of <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=1654+HCU" target="_blank" rel="noopener">1654 Heavy Conversion Unit</a> (HCU) with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Manchester" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Manchesters</a>, <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Stirling" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Stirlings</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Lancaster" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Lancasters</a>. The station and 1654 HCU transferred to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=7+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">7 Group</a> in November 1944.<br /><br />Refinements:<span style="font-size: small;"> </span></p>
<span style="font-size: small;"><code><span><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Artwork&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Artwork</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Correspondence&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Correspondence</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map.+Navigation+chart+and+log&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map. Navigation chart and log</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Diary&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Diary</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Moving+image&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Moving image</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Log+book+and+record+book&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Log book and record book</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Photograph&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Photograph</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Memoir&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Memoir</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Personal+research&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Personal research</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Clothing&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Clothing</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Poetry&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Poetry</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Decoration&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Decoration</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Service+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Service material</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Sound&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Sound</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Training+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Training material<br /></a><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Technical+aid&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Wigsley&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Technical aid<br /><br /></a></span></code> Item type refinement is covered in the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/faq">FAQ section</a>, questions 12 and 13. The Archive also comes with a range of tools for searching and browsing content: please see the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/help">help page</a>.</span>
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Wigsley [entry point]
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Nigel Moore
Description
An account of the resource
<p>RAF Waddington was a Bomber Command station located in Lincolnshire, 3 miles (5 kms) south of Lincoln. <br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=RAF+Waddington" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><strong>See all Archive items</strong></a> | <strong><a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/?takeoff-stations=Waddington&select-search-options%5B%5D=takeoff-stations&_token=mebTm5EIx2lRCtMWNwpmfHjqV5wzbPtEYox3Hnyq&losses_form=7f8a0f6148&orderby=surname&order=asc" target="_blank" rel="noopener">See all wartime losses</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/neatline/fullscreen/places#records/378" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Explore nearby</a> </strong><br /><br />It originally opened in 1916 and subsequently reopened in March 1937. By September 1939 the station was in <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=5+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">5 Group</a> and occupied by <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=44+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">44 Squadron</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=50+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">50 Squadron</a>, both equipped with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Hampden" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Hampdens</a>. In July 1940 50 Squadron moved out and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=142+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">142 Squadron</a> with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Battle" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Battles</a> arrived, but only for a few weeks. <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=207+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">207 Squadron</a> reformed at RAF Waddington in November 1940 to convert to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Manchester" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Manchesters</a>, becoming operational in February 1941. In late 1941 <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=420+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">420 Squadron</a> with Hampdens replaced 207 Squadron. 44 Squadron became the first squadron to convert to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Lancaster" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Lancasters</a>, becoming operational with them in March 1942. 420 Squadron moved out in August 1942, replaced by <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=9+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">9 Squadron</a> converting to Lancasters. Concrete runways were laid during 1943 and the station reopened with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=463+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">463 Squadron</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=467+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">467 Squadron</a> both with Lancasters. RAF Waddington is still in use today.</p>
Refinements:<br /> <span style="font-size: small;"><code><span> <br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Artwork&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Artwork</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Correspondence&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Correspondence</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map.+Navigation+chart+and+log&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map. Navigation chart and log</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Diary&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Diary</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Moving+image&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Moving image</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Log+book+and+record+book&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Log book and record book</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Photograph&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Photograph</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Memoir&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Memoir</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Personal+research&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Personal research</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Clothing&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Clothing</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Poetry&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Poetry</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Decoration&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Decoration</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Service+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Service material</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Sound&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Sound</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Training+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Training material<br /></a><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Technical+aid&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Waddington&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Technical aid<br /><br /></a></span></code> Item type refinement is covered in the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/faq">FAQ section</a>, questions 12 and 13. The Archive also comes with a range of tools for searching and browsing content: please see the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/help">help page</a>.</span>
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Waddington [entry point]
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Nigel Moore
Description
An account of the resource
<p>RAF Syerston was a Bomber Command Station located in Nottinghamshire, 7 miles (11 kms) south-west of Newark-on-Trent.<br /><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=RAF+Syerston" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><strong>See all Archive items</strong></a> | <strong><a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/?takeoff-stations=Syerston&select-search-options%5B%5D=takeoff-stations&_token=mebTm5EIx2lRCtMWNwpmfHjqV5wzbPtEYox3Hnyq&losses_form=7f8a0f6148&orderby=surname&order=asc" target="_blank" rel="noopener">See all wartime losses</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/neatline/fullscreen/places#records/474" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Explore nearby</a></strong></p>
<p>It opened in December 1940 originally as part of <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=1+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">1 Group</a>. <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=304+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">304 Squadron</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=305+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">305 Squadron</a> occupied the station, both flying <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Wellington" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Wellingtons</a>. In July 1941 RAF Syerston transferred to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=5+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">5 Group</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=408+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">408 Squadron</a> arrived with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Hampden" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Hampdens</a> until leaving in December so concrete runways could be laid. The station re-opened in May 1942 when <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=61+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">61 Squadron</a> moved in with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Manchester" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Manchesters</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Lancaster" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Lancasters</a> followed in September 1942 by <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=106+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">106 Squadron</a> with Lancasters. Both squadrons moved out in November 1943 and RAF Syerston was occupied by <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=1668+HCU" target="_blank" rel="noopener">1668 Heavy Conversion Unit</a> which, in January 1944, was renamed 5 <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Lancaster+finishing+school" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Lancaster Finishing School</a>. <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=49+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">49 Squadron</a> Lancasters arrived in April 1945.</p>
Refinements:<br /> <span style="font-size: small;"><code><span> <br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Artwork&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Artwork</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Correspondence&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Correspondence</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map.+Navigation+chart+and+log&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map. Navigation chart and log</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Diary&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Diary</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Moving+image&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Moving image</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Log+book+and+record+book&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Log book and record book</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Photograph&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Photograph</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Memoir&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Memoir</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Personal+research&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Personal research</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Clothing&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Clothing</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Poetry&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Poetry</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Decoration&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Decoration</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Service+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Service material</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Sound&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Sound</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Training+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Training material<br /></a><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Technical+aid&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Syerston&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Technical aid<br /><br /></a></span></code> Item type refinement is covered in the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/faq">FAQ section</a>, questions 12 and 13. The Archive also comes with a range of tools for searching and browsing content: please see the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/help">help page</a>.</span>
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Syerston [entry point]
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Nigel Moore
Description
An account of the resource
RAF Scampton was a Bomber Command station located in Lincolnshire 6 miles (10 kms) north of Lincoln.
<p><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=RAF+Scampton" target="_blank" rel="noopener"><strong>See all Archive items</strong></a> | <strong><a href="https://losses.internationalbcc.co.uk/?takeoff-stations=Scampton&select-search-options%5B%5D=takeoff-stations&_token=mebTm5EIx2lRCtMWNwpmfHjqV5wzbPtEYox3Hnyq&losses_form=7f8a0f6148&orderby=surname&order=asc" target="_blank" rel="noopener">See all wartime losses</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/neatline/fullscreen/places#records/458" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Explore nearby</a></strong> <br /><br />It originally opened in 1916 and re-opened in 1936. By September 1939 RAF Scampton was in <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=5+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">5 Group</a> and occupied by <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=49+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">49 Squadron</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=83+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">83 Squadron</a> both equipped with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Hampden" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Hampdens</a>. Both squadrons converted to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Manchester" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Manchesters</a> late 1941 – early 1942 but from May 1942 both squadrons switched to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=Lancaster" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Lancasters</a> and <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=57+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">57 Squadron</a> replaced 83 Squadron. 49 Squadron moved out and in March 1943 <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=617+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">617 Squadron</a> was formed at RAF Scampton. The station closed in August 1943 whilst concrete runwas were laid and the station was transferred to <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=1+Group" target="_blank" rel="noopener">1 Group</a>. In October 1944 it became operational again with <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=153+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">153 Squadron</a> and, later, <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?tags=625+Squadron" target="_blank" rel="noopener">625 Squadron</a> both flying Lancasters. The station closed in 2022.</p>
Refinements:<br /> <span style="font-size: small;"><code><span> <br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Artwork&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Artwork</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Correspondence&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Correspondence</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Map.+Navigation+chart+and+log&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Map. Navigation chart and log</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Diary&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Diary</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Moving+image&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Moving image</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Log+book+and+record+book&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Log book and record book</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Photograph&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Photograph</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Memoir&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Memoir</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=starts+with&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Personal+research&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Personal research</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Clothing&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Clothing</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Poetry&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Poetry</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Physical+object.+Decoration&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Physical object. Decoration</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Service+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Service material</a><br /><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Sound&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Sound</a> <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Text.+Training+material&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Text. Training material<br /></a><a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=51&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=Technical+aid&range=&collection=&type=&user=&tags=RAF+Scampton&public=&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">Technical aid<br /><br /></a></span></code> Item type refinement is covered in the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/faq">FAQ section</a>, questions 12 and 13. The Archive also comes with a range of tools for searching and browsing content: please see the <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/help">help page</a>.</span>
Title
A name given to the resource
RAF Scampton [entry point]
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/357/5519/PGrimesS1502.2.jpg
2f8c2b7688ba7d1fbece6737ceb4d3a8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/357/5519/AGrimesS151121.2.mp3
3cd700983bd130668fad69444d64890e
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Grimes, Syd
Syd Grimes
S V Grimes
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Sydney Grimes (173865, 1271597 Royal Air Force) a photograph, and his logbook. After training as a wireless operator/ air gunner he completed a tour on 106 Squadron at RAF Syerston. After a period as an instructor he joined 617 Squadron for his second tour where he took part in the attacks on the Tirpitz.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Syd Grimes and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Grimes, SV
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
SJ: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is myself Sue Johnstone and the interviewee is Sid Grimes. The interview is taking place at Mr Grimes’ home in Mildenhall in Suffolk on the 21st of November 2015.
AG: I was born in a little village called Great Wakering near Southend on Sea, five miles from Southend on Sea and I lived there until I joined the Air Force. I was educated at the village school and also for part of the time at Southend Municipal College. When war broke out I was seventeen and eh my father was a Thames bargeman. I didn’t particularly want to go in the Navy although he would have preferred me to. My my brother went in the Navy, I didn’t want to go in the Army and I thought if I go in the Air Force and volunteered as a wireless operator. At that time I was working for EK Cole Ltd,Echo Radio and I thought if I knew something about the technology of radio I would be doing a more interesting job than as a clerk. So I joined the Air Force. I wasn’t accepted for training immediately because there was a real backlog of training. But I volunteered for wireless operator aircrew and I was called up in 1940. I trained at Blackpool, Yatesbury, Eventon,Madeley and all sorts of places as wireless operator. Eventually I ended up as a sergeant wireless operator at Cottesmore in Rutland. ‘Is this alright?’
SJ: This is absolutely fine, this is fantastic.
AG: Eh, I then met my first pilot a man called Stevens, a Welshman always known as Steve eh and the four others of the crew, so. And eh we trained on Wellingtons until he was eh, he was,treated as a bomber pilot then. We then moved to a conversion unit where we flew Manchesters and Lancasters. Having passed out then we went to a place called Syerston near Newark. Now this 106 Squadron was Guy Gibsons’ Squadron, but he must have known that I was coming because he left the two days before. [laughs] No I don’t know if it was two days but a few days before. So I joined 617 Squadron [think he meant 106] and by that time we had picked up a mid upper gunner and a flight engineer, to the Wellington crew so we were now seven. And I did a tour with 106 Squadron until September 1943. Now that was almost entirely the Battle of the Ruhr. but it did include places like Hamburg and Berlin, one or two other places just outside the Ruhr. So having completed a tour of operations which was a real dodgy period. We had some very heavy losses in the Battle of the Ruhr. In fact my crew was only the second one to finish a tour while I was there. And a lot of people came and went fairly quickly so. I do not know how many losses 617, 106 Squadron had in that period. But we were only the second one to finish. I then went to a place called Balderton just outside Newark which was eh, the residue of the Five Lancaster Finishing School, Five Group Lancaster Finishing School. And eh an interesting thing happened to me there because we hadn’t got any pupils to train then, they were coming in a couple of weeks time and we were getting the place ready. A wing commander arrived, Wing Commander Leonard Cheshire and eh he had been operating in Four Group up in Yorkshire on Halifax’s. And when he came to take over 617 Squadron the AOC said, ‘you had better go and learn to fly a Lancaster.’ So he eh hummed and had and said. ‘Well I have been flying Halifaxs for two years.’ But he said ‘No you go and learn it.’ So he came, he hadn’t got a clue so I went with him and four others. And we became, and I am very proud to tell you, I have in my log book. Four times I flew with him while he learnt to fly a Lancaster. [laugh]. I then went from there to the permanent base for Five Lancaster School of eh, Lancaster Group, School at Syerston again. And I stayed there instructing until I done a foolish thing. I was engaged to be married and I saw in orders that there was a course for RT speech unit, at Stanmore. And I thought if I went to Stanmore, Iris was nursing at Leightonstone, Whipps Cross Hospital, Leightonstone. I would undoubtedly get a couple of days before I reported back. So I did this RT speech course, but I was quite good at it actually and of the six of us I got chosen to form this RT speech unit.
SJ: Brilliant.
AG: At Scampton, so I went there and very foolishly I had to do the same lecture four times a day seven days a week.
SJ: How’s that?
AG: And I met a man called Barney Gumbley, a New Zealander and we sat chat. Chatting in the mess one day and he said. ‘I am going back on ops, are you interested?’ I said. ‘Can we go tomorrow?’ [laugh]. So he said. ‘Well I have got an interview for Pathfinders and an interview for 617 have you any preference?’ I said was, Pathfinders was Eight Group and eh I quite like Five Group, I like the people in it. So I said ‘I’d rather go to 617.’ He said ‘It is a good job you said that, for the rest of us want to go there too.’ [laugh]. Anyway about ten days later I got a phone call to say. ‘There is a van picking you up at nine o’clock tomorrow morning.’ I said. ‘Where are we going?’ He said. ‘We are going to Woodhall Spa to joing 617 Squadron.’ So of I went in this van and eh the mess, the Officers Mess, was eh ‘oh dear, oh dear’ I can’t think of it.
SJ: What Woodhall Spa?
AG: At Woodhall Spa, it was the Officers Mess eh.
SJ: Was it the Petwood?
AG: Petwood.
SJ: Petwood Hotel.
AG: Petwood hotel and eh it dropped me there and I reported at the desk which had, [unclear] which had got a WAAF on it. And she said ‘Oh yes we’ve got a room for you.’ So of I went to this room, Barney Gumley was told I was here but he was up at the flight which was about a mile and a half away. He came down and introduced me to the rest of the crew, but no one thought about booking me in.[laugh]. And I did the two ops to the Tirpitz at Tromso before they suddenly realised I wasn’t on the squadron. [laugh] By that time I had done two trips.
SJ: Then they checked you in.
AG: They checked me in they thought I had better be legitimate. So I, I was with 617 from the September ’44 through ‘til April 1945. We had been flying the Barnes Wallis Tall Boy bomb which was 12000 pounds. And then he came up with a much bigger invention, the Grand Slam which was 22000 pounds. In order to accommodate the big bomb they had to take the bomb doors off, and they took the mid upper turret off, and they took all the armour plating out. They really did a modified Lancaster which only took a crew of five. Took all the wireless equipment out except for a VHF transmitter,RT. So I was surplus so I said to the flight commander. ‘ I have only got three more trips to do can I fly in the astrodome as a fighter observer or something like that?’ He said. ‘Under no circumstances, we are trying to find reasons for loosing weight.’ And he said. ‘You want to go and fly.’ He wouldn’t let me and the crew got shot down on the very next trip. So they got hit by and anti aircraft shell on the port wing and it shot it completely away. So they were on the bombing run at that time which was the dicey part of the trip. Because eh, the special bomb sight that we had, we had to fly straight and level. It was gyroscopically controlled, so you had to fly very accurately with height, speed and all the outside temperatures. And all that kind of thing which you fed in to this computer. So they was, the squadron flew in what was called a gaggle. A geese gaggle you know? The way that they fly in the sky.
SJ: A formation.
AG: A formation, and that gaggle when you were stepped sideways and up and down in a very large box. It was designed so that the whole squadron, twenty of us could bomb without impeding each other, all on the same bombing run. You were actually converging you see, so all the bombs had gone before you actually hit each other. It was a very clever little devise and this anti aircraft shell shot their port wing off so that it. It just spiralled in [unclear], and it was spiralling so quickly, if anybody was still alive in the aircraft eh they couldn’t have got out anyway. And of course the bomb went off as soon as it hit the ground. Because as they were on the bombing run the bomb aimer had already fused it.
SJ: Eh, you don’t remember which aircraft it was?
AG: Yes it is in, I flew with them. ‘Just sit down my dear.’ You can put it off for a bit.
SJ: I was going to pause it for a second.
AG: YZL, PD117 The number of the aircraft was PD117.[pause]
SJ: That looks like a well looked through log book.
AG: Just to prove Wing Commander Cheshire.
SJ: Yes that’s where he had gone to. That is local flying that was part of his training. [laugh]
AG: That’s right, I always say that he was my pupil.
SJ: [laugh] that’s brilliant. So what happened next, you were moved to 617 you were there for a six months.
AG: Yes and I done seventeen trips.
SJ: Seventeen trips.
AG: I got three more to do.[pause] ‘I will just have a cough sweet.’
SJ: That is no problem, that’s fine.
AG: [pause while uwrapping sweet] ‘Will you stay for some lunch?’
SJ: Oh, might do if that’s all right, yeah.
AG: I have got a beef casserole.
SJ: Lovely, that sounds fantastic.
AG: Right, I will heat it up in a minute.
SJ: [Laughs]
AG: ‘Sorry, I was, what was I saying —.
SJ: You were saying about 617 Squadron when you left.
AG: Yes I went to 9 Squadron who was the other squadron that had the tallboys, they didn’t have the grand slam, so that they still needed wireless operators. So I went over to 9 Squadron about three weeks before the end of the war. After we, I then had to make a decision, I was asked did I want to go to the far east against Japan. By that time I was married.
SJ: When did you get married?
AG: I got married the month before I joined 617, Iris never knew I had volunteered to go back.
SJ: Did you ever tell her.
AG: I have since, she was indignant. [laugh]. But I always said she was in a more dangerous situation as a nurse in Whipps Cross Hospital near the docks.
SJ: Was she always a nurse then?
AG: I didn’t say how I met her, did I?
SJ: You didn’t no.
AG: Can I digress?
SJ: Yes that will be fantastic to know.
AG: She was born in Woodford. But before the war they moved down to a little village called Rochford just outside Southend. And she wanted to be a nurse but they wouldn’t take her until she was seventeen. So she came to Echo as a copy typist. I was one of the senior, not senior clerks but I was, I was fairly well up. I had been there three years. And I met her and I liked the look of her and so after I went in the Air Force I kept in touch with her. And you know, I’d spent about no more than about ten days in her company, up to the time we got married. Because when I came on leave we always went to see a London show but that was about the only time we could get of. ’Forgive me sucking the sweet.’
SJ: Oh no it’s fine, not to worry.
AG: And that is how I met her. So I decided I didn’t want to go to the Far East I thought that having done about forty six trips, I didn’t , the neck had gone out too far. So I got posted to 50 Squadron at a place called Sturgate which was up near, in North Lincolnshire. And we were then flying; first of all we were flying prisoners of war from Brussels to England, in the Lancasters. We used to take, I think it was twenty or twenty four depending on what kit they got in the Lancaster fuselage sitting on the floor But they didn’t mind that as long as they were coming to England. After we got all the POWs back we then started bringing people back from leave from Italy. And we used to fly to Naples and pick up about twenty Air Force or Army people at a place call Pernicano, which is just outside Naples. Eh after a time they decided that was going to stop because shipping was available to bring them back in larger quantities anyway. And the Mediterranean was open so they stopped doing it. So I then got posted to do a code and cipher course down at a place called Compton Bassett near Calne in Wiltshire. And having passed that course I got posted to Germany ostensibly to be the CO of a small mobile signals unit. Which was one officer, one sergeant, one corporal and about ten men. When I got there I was told it was based at a place called Stade[?] between Cookshaven and Haverg. So I arrived at Stade[?] and the CO said. ‘Oh I am glad to see you’ he said. ‘I lost my adjutant about two weeks ago you are my new adjutant.’ I said. ‘No I have a mobile signals regiment.’ He said. ‘No I closed that down yesterday and you are my new adjutant.’ But I said. ‘I know something about flying but I know nothing about anything else.’ He said. ‘I’ll teach you.’[laugh] and he became a very good friend of mine. We did all sorts of things together, we got up very early in the morning sometimes at dawn and went and shoot deer. Quite unofficial we hadn’t got a license from the Military Government or anything and it ended up in a very humorous story. We had this, there weren’t very many of us, these base signals on your radar unit, refurbished these units to be sent round to the aerodromes and various places including Berlin. So there were only about fifteen of us I suppose. And we were having dinner or preparing to have dinner one night and we had got deer for dinner. This happened, Military Government people and ourselves we didn’t mingle sociably ‘cause there was nothing else. So they arrived about four o’clock and didn’t look like moving. So the CO said to me ‘What do we do?’ I said ‘Well as they are the guests of our mess this evening you had better invite them to dinner. And as they are our guests they won’t be able to do anything about it.’ So they sat down to dinner with us and ate deer. And they did let us know that they were aware of it. I think they had been told off, they had a [unclear] [laugh]. Well that, I ended up demobilised in August 1946 and I got reinstatement rights if I went back to Echo, but I was offered a short service commission of two years. But if I had taken that it would have meant in all probability the Air Force would have been reducing in size so much that I would have then been demobilised. And I wouldn’t have had reinstatement rights, having been in what was the regular Air Force for two years. So eh I went back to Echo. And so as I say I didn’t know anything about being an adjutant and certainly nothing about earning my living in civvy street. But I was fortunate, the man who interviewed me was the deputy chief accountant of EK Cole Ltd. And he knew because I had told him that I was keen on cricket because he was interviewing me in depth. He said ‘That’s a good thing I am a life member of Lancashire.’ So he took me on his staff and he taught me accountancy. I did take a correspondence course was meeker compared with what he told me. So I was never able to be a chartered accountant because I didn’t take articles. I was earning my living, by that time I was increasing my family.
SJ: How many children have you got?
AG: I’ve got three, two of them became nurses and one, the boy went into insurance.
SJ: You had two girls and a boy.
AG: I am proud of them all.
SJ: Oh yeah I don’t blame you.
AG: So I was in the deputy chief accountants department. Then he got promoted to be the chief accountant and then he became promoted to eh; financial secretary and accountant to a number of subsidiaries. So as he went up my situation went up with him.
SJ: You went up as well, did you enjoy that?
AG: I couldn’t have been an accountant in a professional office because that would have been dull. That would have been checking, checking, checking, checking. What I liked about being in industry, I was always in a place that was making things and you could go there and see it all happening. It was accountancy, it was very important accountancy, but eh —.
SJ: Very different from your RAF days though?
AG: Yes very much so. I was an active member of the 617 Squadron Association and we went to a number of reunions in Canada, Australia, New Zealand eh France as a unit, we’ve gone and made friends wherever we went. I haven’t been to the last couple number of places because Iris became, eh unreliable, she was unsteady. I couldn’t take her onto aircraft and coaches and things like that. She came to, she came to Australia and New Zealand and to Canada but the —, When we went to France and Germany and the Netherlands we went by coach and ferry, she hates flying.
SJ: [laughs]
AG: ‘Now where have I got to?’ Eventually we got taken over, first by Pye from Cambridge and then Phillips who are Dutch of course. But the British office was at Croydon and eh I became the financial accountant, financial director in a number of subsidiaries around the group. But I ended up, I always wanted to be somewhere near Southend because my parents were still alive. And I owed a lot to my parents, I didn’t want to move right out of their orbit. And I then went to Canvey Island to a components factory. First of all as the financial director and then as the managing director. And from there I went back to Southend as the eh; managing director of Echo Instruments which made instrumentation for industry. Then I retired.
SJ: How long have you been retired now?
AG: I retired when I was, I retired finally when I was sixty three. I first retired at sixty one when I left Canvey. And I only had been retired for about three months when my boss at Cambridge rang me up and said. ‘I am in trouble, can you help me?’ I said. ‘Well, help you in what sense?’ He said. ‘Can you come back and do a job looking after a subsidiary until I find a, a permanent managing director?’ So I did and I stayed two years.
SJ: [laugh] Why not?
AG: But it was a good period for me because I was drawing full pension and then I was drawing full salary so it made a nest egg for me when I did retire.
SJ: So it was worth it then?
AG: Yes; well I stayed in Shoeburyness just outside Southend until twelve years ago. But one of my daughters lived in West Row which is just to the West of Milden Hall and another one lived in Barton Mills.
SJ: I was going to ask why you moved up this way?
AG: Well my son was in Kent and the journey from Shoeburyness up to here was one hundred and ten miles. And when I got to eighty I decided that that was too far. So we moved up here to a place just the other side of Mildenhall, Brickcone Hall[?] and eh, it was too large but we loved it. And then Iris had trouble keeping her balance, damaged her hip. So I decided we had to be on the same floor so we moved here. Which was a retirement bungalow which suited us down to the ground.
SJ: And it is a lovely complex, it really is nice.
AG: It is, I sit here and we have mallard ducks and swans on the river and I watch them and they come and look at me and squawk.
SJ: [laugh] And you sit and look at them?
AG: I try, I do, if Iris was here with me I’d love it. But she is only two miles away.
SJ: That is not far. How long has she been in the care home?
AG: Since January, so eleven months. But she is happy there and she is safe. You see I had her home here at first after she came out of hospital eh, but I couldn’t look after her during the day and the night. And I was getting totally exhausted because every time she moved I woke up. So we decided that my savings would go to the wall and I would put her in the care home. And she is in a lovely little care home. She is well cared for and she is safe, so —.
SJ: Does she like it there?
AG: At first she missed us all because she saw the family every day. Well now I go in about five days out of the seven and the two girls go once. Because Rosalind is a practice nurse in Bury so ,
SJ: That is not far away?
AG: No. And she is married to a Canadian who eh and they go backwards and forwards. I think they have a permanent passage booked on aircraft [laugh]. And eh Jill has got four sons and five grandsons, my great grandsons, so we are largely together. And my son comes up —.
SJ: He is the link end.
AG: Yes. He comes up for a week about every six weeks, because he has retired now.
SJ: Has he got any family?
AG: No; he married a lady who was seven years older than him and it never happened, so —.
SJ: That is quite a big family you got then, grandkids and great grandkids.
AG: Yes, I am a very lucky man. Having survived the war I look round and think, ‘This family wouldn’t have survived if I had bought it.’
SJ: I know, yeah.
AG: Well they might have done, Iris might have married someone else, but.
SJ: It would have been different though.
AG: They wouldn’t have had my genes.
SJ: No exactly [laugh]
AG: I’ll heat the —.
SJ: I shall put this on pause shall I?
AG: Since I retired, lived in Shoeburyness, Mildenhall and here there has been a resurgent of interest in 617. And also strangely in Pye Cambridge. And I have been recruited, to say to do this kind of interview for Pye Cambridge. Because they are making a record of the activities of Pye in Cambridge, because it has been there ever since it was formed.
SJ: So they are getting a history together of that part of Pye?
AG: There is a historical museum which is bringing all these records together. So they are doing what you are doing and making recordings and eh —.
SJ: It is great it needs doing. I mean how do you feel about the project? How do you feel about the Bomber Command Archive project?
AG: Lets say this. After I have had a session like this or with John Nichol . Or with other things the squadron seems to send to me. Eh, like the Cambridge stamp centre and signing things happened. Undoubtedly I have a disturbed couple of nights. Because it has brought it all back. But then the family encourage me and I totally accept the fact, if people like me didn’t say what this was like. The written word is not necessarily understood. But I think if they hear peoples voice as you are doing now, it might stop wars happening. I thank my lucky stars, that my son didn’t ever have to go through the trauma of a six years war. It was, don’t get me wrong. I think it was necessary. Hitler wouldn’t have got stopped in any other way. And I think in a way Hitler getting stopped, Mussolini and Stalin also got stopped. Because the consequences of the nuclear bomb was so dreadful that it stopped. And I don’t think there would have been a nuclear bomb if it hadn’t have been for the war, ‘cause the money would not have been found.
SJ: Yeah.
AG: Do I sound too serious?
SJ: No. I completely agree with you. Lessons need to be learnt from the past, don’t they?
AG: I think those of us who went through it. Have kind of a duty to make sure these subsequent generations knew what it was like.
SJ: Do you feel this generation and future generations will understand how it was?
AG: It’s difficult to say. But John Nichol tells me his book had a huge print and he has sold a lot of copies. So that if it get put into houses and families and people must have been buying it to read at home. It didn’t all go to libraries.
SJ: No not at all.
AG: The younger people eh, might well have learnt from it. And the BBC have done a number of programmes about the Air Force and the war in general. The Navy, all those aspects have been fired[?] some of it must have sunk in.
SJ: Yes you would like to think so.
AG: Yeah. And I think we have a duty to make sure that it became available. But it is not something that I enjoy.
SJ: Yes I completely understand, yeah.
AG: Because, well my family were fortunate. My brother was in the Navy, he was on the Arctic Convoys on HMS London, and eh —.
SJ: What was your brothers’ name?
AG: Kenneth, Kenneth George. And he, he went in the Navy. Largely because of my father I think. My father was Thames Bargeman. There’s Thames barges on the wall.
SJ: Yeah, I noticed them when I came in, yeah.
AG: My father was a Freeman of the River Thames. And he was on Thames barges and then on Thames tugs.
SJ: Did your father have military background?
AG: No, in the First World War he was a barge captain. And he, he used to load ammunition at Woolwich Arsenal, and take it over to France to a place called St Valerie.
SJ: He had a very important job.
AG: He used to take it across the channel. Through all those minefields and what have you.
SJ: Very risky.
AG: Yes it was. And at the end of the war he was presented with the Maritime Medal.
SJ: Oh brilliant.
AG: But you know the chances that he took as a civilian. He should have got much more than that.
SJ: I know. What was you fathers name?
AG: George, George David. He lived until he was ninety four, the last six years with us at Shoebury.
SJ: You mentioned your brother. Did you have any more brothers or sisters?
AG: No just the brother. My mother had twins which were still born, my brother and I —. They really were, they were extremely poor in a sense. Because in the shipping slump of 1931, 32 the barges were laid up all over the East Coast. And he just got on care and maintenance pay which was hardly anything. And with that he was trying to run himself on the barge, tied up to a buoy and the family at home. So his savings gradually went. So he had to, he had a break down eventually about 1934. And he stayed on the water in a sense because he became the hand in an oyster dredger on the river Roch at Rochford. And he did that eh, about eight months in the year. Then he was unemployed for the rest of the year. So he dispersed his savings looking after his family really. So I did have a very big moral obligation to my parents who were the salt of the earth.
SJ: Yes they sound like they were, which was great. I think that generation they were, weren’t they?
AG: They were family minded.
SJ: They were mm.
AG: They, [pause] I don’t think they bought themselves a Christmas present. Where my brother and I always had one.
SJ: Yeah, what were your family Christmases like?
AG: The family, my father had one, two, three. Three daughters, three sisters and two brothers. And one of the aunts was a school teacher and she took a fatherly interest. So silly isn’t it, she was an aunt, she couldn’t take a fatherly interest [laugh]. An aunt interest in my brother and I. And he won an open scholarship, a total scholarship to Clarks College when he was thirteen.
SJ: Oh brilliant.
AG: It was the only one on offer in the whole of the area, and he won it. He went to Clarks College. By the time I got to and I was four years younger. By the time I got to the age when I was sitting exams. They couldn’t afford for me to be another drain on the family finances. So eh, I went to work at Ecko.
SJ: How old were you when you started there?
AG: I was fourteen.
SJ: Fourteen mmm. How did you feel about working, starting work so young?
AG: It was the common thing.
SJ: It was mmm.
AG: I was on the, I was at the village and I stayed at the village. I was only at the municipal college for a short time and I was working and doing it evenings. But the village, I was almost. Hardly any of us did further education but my family believed in it. So I did further education and my brother was good example to me that he had won an open scholarship.
SJ: That was brilliant.
AG: But the village had a tradition of going to work at fourteen.
SJ: Yeah. But they did didn’t they? I mean they is eighteen now when they leave school. It is a big difference these days.
AG: But I would say this about the great working school; it was first class. And they had dedicated people. We had two Welshmen who were school masters there and they gave up their Saturdays for sport. They never let us go to a fixture without one of them being there. You know it was —. After school they’d, we would go into the playground and get a matting wicket and play cricket. And they always did it in a —. I look at teachers these days and I think to myself. ‘You should have lived with those people, you would have learned an awful lot.’ They believed in the welfare of their students. Where as now they seem to want —. [Interruption]. ‘Come in.’ [shout]
SJ: Shall I put this on?
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Syd Grimes
Language
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eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
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AGrimesS151121
Creator
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Sue Johnstone
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:54:01 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Sydney Grimes grew up near Southend and joined the RAF as a wireless operator in 1940. He flew a total of 41 operations - 24 operations with 106 Squadron and 17 operations with 617 Squadron. He then served on 9 Squadron at RAF Bardney for 2 months and 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate for 3 months, where he assisted on the return of prisoners of war in Operation Dodge. After demobilisation he returned to his old company and retired as the managing director.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Nottinghamshire
England--Rutland
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940
1943
1945
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Richard James
106 Squadron
50 Squadron
617 Squadron
9 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992)
crewing up
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Manchester
Operation Catechism (12 November 1944)
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operation Exodus (1945)
RAF Balderton
RAF Bardney
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Scampton
RAF Sturgate
RAF Syerston
RAF Woodhall Spa
Tallboy
Tirpitz
training
wireless operator
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/3519/WhittleG.2.jpg
5db8e5ab7f504e33ee8fdd28593061a7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/259/3519/AWhittleG150626.2.mp3
101772ee338ddf0cb41c285d70c6cb1c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Whittle, Geoffrey
G G Whittle
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-26
2016-08-22
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Whittle, G
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Gordon Whittle DFM (1923 – 2016, 1397166 Royal Air Force), as well as his log books, photographs and memoirs.
Geoffrey Whittle flew operations as a navigator with 101 Squadron from RAF Ludford Magna.
There is a sub-collection of 25 Air Charts, mostly of Great Britain.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Denise Field and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
DE: This is an interview for the International Bomber Command Digital Archive with Squadron Leader Geoffrey Whittle, it’s the 26th of June and we are in Ruskington. So if you could tell me a little bit about your life and your experiences please?
GW: I was born in London, the outskirts of London, southern side and, I came from a family, printing background. My grandfather at one time had his own business; my father was in the national press. So I was destined with my brother to become printers as such, em. I was pulled away from school at the age of fourteen to take up an apprenticeship, which were not easily obtained unless you had an insight into the business. So I started off my career path as a trainee printer. The war came along, ‘39 and we were nicely placed when things hotted up in 1940 to be on the path to central London for the bombers. So at that time I was working in London, going in every day and was subjected to the bombing then my firm pulled out to one of its subsidiary operations in Hertfordshire in Letchworth. So I sort of missed that and I missed a further lot of the bombing. I used to get it or see it when I went home for the weekend or a little bit longer. Anyway coming up to the age of eighteen I felt that I was going to be called up. In the meantime my brother who was seven years older than me joined up immediately after the war started and was due to come home for commissioning selection on the day that Hitler started his push. That went by the board and he then became a prisoner of war at St Valerie. He was attached to the Fifty First Highland Division, that leads on to another story of my life. So I decided I was going to be called up, there was no way about it, but so ah, in 1941, so I had no desire to go into the army, no desire to go into the navy, so a sure fire way of getting into the air force and interesting of course, was to volunteer for aircrew duties. So I duly went off in October ‘41 for selection process and I was invited, I think that is the right word to use. Invited at the time to consider training as an observer, this was a precursor to the special navigation, bomber, gunnery thing that took place before the four-engined bomber came in. I was eventually called up in March of 1942 and went through the sausage machine at Regent’s Park and three weeks, what do you call it now boot camp, I suppose at Brighton and then down to Paignton for OTU, for, ITS Paignton in the summer months, it was rather an idyllic time the weather was superb, swimming every day and we had taken over the various hotels and things on the front at Paignton that was just across the beach. Oh, incidentally we were told while we were at St John’s Wood, Regent’s Park that we would not be going overseas for training. That was a little disappointing though as one had thoughts of going to South Africa or Canada but it didn’t in fact materialise. With hindsight one can see why when they were building up the ‘43 force, ‘43 and they wanted more people to go through the machine. Anyway it was from Paignton we went to Eastbourne for elementary air navigation school where we were doing all the ground work. We were eventually moved out of Eastbourne because of the nights we spent standing around the streets when the air raid warning had taken, been given and we moved up to Bridgnorth, I was only at Bridgnorth for two or three weeks and from there I went to West Freugh in Scotland, south of Stranraer on the Mull of Galloway. We arrived there the end of October the beginning of November and we had the joys of Scottish winter, in the winter time at a place called Stranraer. I have no idea what it looks like now, but it was pretty grotty, to use such a word in 1942. We did our flying and I vividly recall we had a great passing out parade there were sixty on the course. Em, great passing out parade at about four o’clock in the afternoon on the 1st of March 1943 and that same night we entrained for various OTUs that we were going to, no leave, nothing like that. So overnight travel from Scotland down to 27 OTU which was at Lichfield where one crewed up pilot and wireless operator, I think that was really the three of us and converted onto the Wellington. That is where I was fortunate enough to be picked and it was absolutely true that one has read we were put into a room, all the various categories and out of that crews appeared. I had a chap he was an old man, I was then twenty, no nineteen he must have been all of thirty four. Bill Walker, he had a lot of experience he must have had three or four hundred hours of flying because when he finished his pilot’s training he went off as a staff pilot at an air gunner’s school, great chap, chartered surveyor and we crewed up and flew the Wellington. Converted onto that on various exercises and trips until we were eventually considered competent enough to move onto the Heavy Conversion Unit which 1656 at Lindholme.
DE: The crewing up procedure, who chose who?
GW: The pilot basically, he went round, would you like to fly? I don’t know what the attraction was other than we were both over six foot tall. It made some difference, anyway that’s how it worked.
DE: Did you feel more confident with a pilot who had got more hours and was older?
GW: I don’t think we even thought about it, it was just nice that you had it. He came along, would you like to fly with me and off we went. I think at nineteen we didn’t question life so much as nineteen year- old as youngsters do nowadays. That was the form and we were going through it. So we moved to Lindholme and converted onto the Lancaster and there we met up with the rest of the crew, the flight engineer, the two gunners, and, no the bomb aimer must have been at Lichfield as well, not sure, can’t remember.
DE: Was that a similar process to get the gunners and engineer?
GW: I think so, they happened, it was a long time ago, a long time ago. We just appeared and we converted onto the Lancaster and did some day flying and did some night flying and I think it was the 21st, 25th of July, no correction 25th of June 1943 we were posted to 101 Squadron. Then they had just moved to Ludford Magna from Holme on Spalding Moor and we arrived as I have said on the 25th of June from Lindholme where we did our first operation two nights later. That was a conversion to squadron life, It was a gardening trip, you know Lavashell, minelaying so one was into the thing. And then we carried on, did various trips. The next major trip was on Cologne and then we were in the very last wave. So one saw the fires burning over Cologne a long, long before we got there but it was good initiation. Then after that it was a variety of trips to the Ruhr, Berlin, Nuremberg, Peenemunde, things like that. I can talk more about [unclear] in a minute. Then on our fifteenth operation that was on Hanover, as we were getting close to the target we were first of all coned by a searchlight and within seconds hit by anti-aircraft fire and by a night fighter which was not funny [laugh]. The port inner engine caught fire, the distance reading compass in fuselage in the back, it took one of the night fighter bullets, we had holes in the aircraft and we also had a small fire in-house in the fuselage. Anyway the flight engineer put out the fire we did a steep dive to port, when I say put out, he feathered the engine and deep dive to port and that fortunately put the fire out in the engine and also shook off the night fighter. Then he went back and started trying to put the fire out in the fuselage with a few bullets going off around him because it was affecting the ammunition trays. We were warned to stand by to bail out, Bill pulled the aircraft up back to about fifteen thousand feet and dropped the bombs and proceeded on. The fire broke out again, the rear gunner had a little problem, the flight engineer and the mid upper gunner pulled him out. We were very restricted with navigation equipment, I lost all my stuff in the dive to port, it just slid off the table. I managed to save my computer, Dalton computer and a pair of compasses, a few pencils and that was it. Anyway we stood by to bail out and being good aircrew we had a little discussion and decided, let’s try to get home, and we did. According to the reports after at the first debriefing the weather was not all that good. We got back, diverted to Lindholme, landed did a ground loop [laugh] finished up somewhere in the nether regions of Lindholme. Scrambled out of the aircraft and had to wait to be picked up. The port wheel had been punctured that was the trouble as we hit the ground we went round.
DE: Obviously the port engine had been hit.
GE: The aircraft was a write off. Anyway that was on the 25th of September, 27th of September, the 27th, the 27th. Three weeks after that the pilot and the flight engineer both received Gallantry Medals, immediate awards. Two weeks after that the wireless operator and myself each received immediate awards of a Distinguished Flying Medal and the other guys, the bomb aimer who was an officer, got the DFC and the two gunners got DFMs so we were all decorated with the immediate awards. The interesting thing about that was that the beginning of November a little later in November I was gazetted as a pilot officer with effect from the 27th of September so in fact I flew as a sergeant but was a pilot officer as indeed was Bill Walker and, so we both received medals as opposed to the officer awards. The interesting thing on that of course was the recipient of the DFC received forty pounds gratuity which went immediately to the RAF Benevolent Fund. As a sergeant we received twenty pounds which we keep and twenty pounds went a long way [laugh]. Anyway that was that and that was a memorable day.
DE: You mentioned the rear gunner had a problem, what was that?
GE: Oxygen mainly and I think and obviously overcome by fumes with the stuff burning was going down into his turret and that probably affected him some, he was recovered they pulled him out and gave him some more oxygen and then he went back into his turret. The pilot lost his controls, they had been severed. So it was all in all an interesting evening but we got back. Anyway we did not do very much flying in October. We were due to go on leave and nothing happened anyway on the next trip that I mentioned earlier I perforated my eardrum in flight and I was whipped off to hospital. Whilst I was there unfortunately my crew were shot down on the third sortie without me near Liege in Belgium on their way to Stuttgart. By that time we had acquired an extra member of the crew, the ABC operator, and so they were shot down and the pilot, the wireless operator and the navigator who replaced me did get out em, the pilot and the wireless operator became prisoners of war and the navigator in fact got back to England. All three of them have since died so I am now the sole survivor of that original crew. And that is why for very good reasons I am so interested in this Bomber Memorial because the names of the crews will go up on the walls and I think that is something they deserve. The wireless operator had a young son he was six months when he was killed and I tied up with his son twenty odd years ago and I normally see him once a year and that is very interesting and I think he likes it as well, it is a connection to his youth and a father he really did not really know. On the trips the interesting ones, Peenemunde which was quite out of the ordinary, it was done on a full moon when of course we never flew. So to be called suddenly to ops in the middle of August or July, I will have to look up my facts, was quite surprising and then usually as a navigator we didn’t get a pre main briefing, nav briefing, when so often we [unclear] our routes and basic stuff, although it was the final stuff before the main briefing the final met forecast so we could produce our flight plan. And when we arrived in the crew room, who should be sitting at the top table, one Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris [laugh]. The briefing took place and there it was when the curtains went back and this red line right across the North Sea a straight route virtually to some obscure place on the northern coast of Germany. And the bombing was at six thousand feet which was unusual. So all of these sort of things were quite intriguing but nobody would tell why we were going there, and so Arthur Harris finished up by saying ‘well I can’t tell you about the target all I will tell you, that it is vital that it is knocked out and if you don’t knock it out tonight you will go back tomorrow night and the night after and the night after until you have knocked it out’. We had the master bomber technique, first time on the main course raid, I must admit he didn’t sound over encouraging the way the markers were going down, the bombs were going down. I did really think on the way back, it was an eight hour trip, something like that em, full moon, saw a couple of aircraft shot down, I was looking out the astrodome. I really thought we would be back the next night and I must admit it was a great relief to get up somewhere around eleven o’clock, twelve o’clock next day to find out the raid had been a success. Great relief, and of course it was a great success from the point of view of slowing down the flying bombs. The impact that would have had on D-Day, let alone the civilian population. But I did experience when I went home on leave the odd V1 and V2 [laugh] not funny especially the V2, you did not hear anything but the bang. The interesting thing about the master bomber technique, they trialled it two or three weeks beforehand with a small force of one hundred and fifty Lancs from 1 Group another hundred and fifty from 5 Group and we were split up onto three targets, Genoa, Milan and Turin. 1 Group had fifty on Turin, the 5 Group had fifty on Milan if I remember correctly and twenty five each went to Genoa. The time of attack was one o’clock, ‘oh one hundred’ on Sunday morning. We were doing quite well, it was a nice night to fly, saw the Alps for the first time in one’s life and I was three or four minutes ahead of my actual time for my ETA so I would do a traditional dog leg sixty degrees one way one hundred and eighty the other, that saved three minutes. Sixty, one twenty and then we were back on track. We arrived at the target, virtually 1 am and the interesting thing was, God bless the Italians that as we were approaching the target it was quite lit up with anti-aircraft fire. Guns going off everywhere, since the first bombs went down they completely stopped [laugh]. We had quite a free run, but it was a long flight back to there and back all over France but that was interesting. As I say we trialled the master bomber technique before it was actually first used. The Berlin trip, well I was asked to do it and on that particular occasion I flew with the squadron commander and, we arrived back about five o’clock in the morning, debriefed and went straight on leave that was our scheduled leave. So I arrived back in London that evening and went out, in civilian clothes. I always changed when I went home and went to our local pub. It was quite intriguing I had a chum there that I met up with who was in uniform, the barman said to him ‘were you over Berlin last night?’ ‘No but he was’, turning to me [laugh]. The barman almost dropped dead to see somebody in civilian clothes, but that was how life was. So what happened after that, I went to hospital, the crew were shot down, came out of hospital. I was grounded for six months and started doing a bit of some instructional work around various places in Lincolnshire. All wartime airfields no longer exist, doing a little bit of navigation and things like that. Then I got my flying category back to eight thousand feet and was sent off for reselection. I went to Eastchurch and I was there on D-Day. I was playing cricket on D-Day, officers versus sergeants watching all these aeroplanes going over wondering what the hell was going on, of course we had no idea. I, asked to go onto Mosquitoes but was told my height restriction would not allow it because the minimum height restriction was twelve thousand feet so I went to Air Sea Rescue, I went down to Cornwall and the aircraft we were flying was the Warwick which was the airborne lifeboat version of the Wellington really and we had a few Sea Otters as well. When the fun moved away from, that part of France, the Cherbourg area the light aircraft moved over to Kirkeville but we were still based in Cornwall. That went on for five or six months and then we were disbanded.
DE: So what did the work entail there, was it patrols?
GW: Standing by more than anything else, I never dropped a lifeboat in my life. We never had to for the main concentration was more to the east than we were. But I say, we were disbanded eventually. So it was back again into the sausage machine and, back for training, I went to [Millom?], did a bit of flying there, then went to Half Penny Green just outside Wolverhampton. And that was then I knew I was going to go into what they called the Tiger Force on Halifaxes and probably glider towing. Then the war finished.
DE: You were on Halifaxes and glider towing because you still had the height restriction?
GW: Yes, as I say I would have done but it never happened, say the war in Europe finished and two or three months of waiting and the war in Japan finished so that was it and like so many aircrew who were non-operational at the time we were invited, what would we like to do? I was still young I was twenty two at the time I thought why would I want to work in an office or that sort of lifestyle? So I opted for the RAF Regiment and I went into the RAF Regiment, went to Germany and trained on armoured cars. I did my basic training, footslogging around here at Belton where the RAF Regiment depot was at that time. I then moved down to Oxford, Boarshill where the armoured car school was and converted onto the Humber armoured car and all the tactics attached to it and then went to Germany as the two I/C of an armoured car squadron. That was interesting, as I say I was a flight lieutenant then and went off. Anyway I was still an apprentice and I was expected to go back to it.
DE: Onto the printing?
GW: Yes back to printing. So I had to take my demob which I did. Went back, decided it was not the life for me so I went round to the RAF Regiment people in London and said, ‘what are the chances of coming back?’ and they said ‘yes we’ll have you extended service commission for four years’. So without consulting my father I gave up my apprenticeship, I cancelled my indentures and rejoined into the RAF Regiment and whilst I was there did a spell at Upavon and then I went out. Yes I did some time at the depot and went out to Upavon and from there I went out to Aden and commanded 4001 Armoured Car Flight. The obvious the Humber car flight and it still exists today in the RAF as a unit. Whilst I was in Aden the wanted, sent out requests for volunteer pilots and navigators to rejoin as aircrew, go back to aircrew, volunteer for aircrew and I did volunteer for that and I did go back. So January 1950 I em, went back into flying duties, finished up in the all-weather world, and funnily enough by that time I got my full flying category back. So that was acceptable and I went into the all-weather world flying Mosquitoes then Meteors. In between times I did the odd ground tour. From the Mosquito I went out to Egypt [unclear]. The pilot I was em, due to join up with, I incidentally when I done my conversion into Mosquitoes I flew with the chap who was taking command of the newly-formed 219 Squadron and then he was going to fly with the nav Leader when got out there, and my chap never appeared so I became station navigation officer. Still did a bit of flying with them then converted to the Meteor and did a bit there. Came home, had a ground tour then went back to flying, went again into Germany as the nav leader of 85 Squadron flying the Meteor and then the Javelin. Whilst I was there my ear blew up again and I perforated it again. So that was the end of my flying. I went to take up my staff college qualifying exam. I then went to staff college in 1959 and whilst we were there were told quite happily by the air member for personnel that the majority of us did not have a full career left in the air force because they were all coming, the younger people were coming out from Cranwell and they had to have first preferences. That was a nice thing to hear, there were about seventy or eighty of us. One or two did get to the top obviously that will always happen. So I went to Fighter Command Headquarters on staff and em, and there I decided to retire, I then had two children and there was eleven years between them and I decided that I would get out and take early retirement. So I retired from the air force in December 1961. Having had such a hatred of working in an office what did I do? I went into banking [laugh]. I saw a friend of mine from air force days who went into it and seemed to enjoy it. It was industrial banking mainly not high street stuff, it was more flowing but it wasn’t my forte. I never objected to the year I spent at it. It made me realise that there was a difference from being an officer in the Royal Air Force with people telling you or you telling people what to do and the discipline attached to it, to mixing with the great British public. It was a very good leveller, I have never objected to that, yeah, although it wasn’t my forte. So whilst I was doing that I thought this is not my scene, let’s look around, see what’s coming up. I saw one or two things and eventually I saw an advert in the paper for management officials in NAAFI the Navy Army and Air Force Institute to train. There was an age limit of thirty I was then thirty five or thirty six so I thought let’s have a go at it and see what happens. My service career will offset the age difference, which it did. So I joined NAAFI as a trainee district manager and retired from it twenty six years later as a departmental manager. In between times I spent em, I finished my training rather quickly as I was sent out to Cyprus on the emergency when the Turks invaded northern Cyprus. Stayed there for four months then I went over to Libya went home then to Libya and I spent eighteen years overseas with NAAFI of my twenty six years with them. Climbing up the promotional tree, started off as a district manager then I became a senior district manager. Then I spent a year on the island of Gan and then onto Singapore from Singapore back of all places to Cyprus [laugh] and went there as a number two to Cyprus. Then back home for a short period and then I had London region, then I went to Singapore. I think I got the sequence right, anyway I went to Singapore twice. First of all, oh, from Gan I went to Singapore on special duties and I was a useful [unclear] for them as I knew the services a lot better than many others and I was doing a lot of liaison work and exercise planning and that sort of thing. Then I went back to Singapore a second time. That’s it from Singapore I had London, interesting working with the Brigade of Guards and all that sort of thing around London. And I then went back to Singapore running the Far East show as the command supervisor. From there I went to Germany as the number two for the whole of Germany and from there into London as a departmental manager. And I retired from there, I stayed on, they were going to retire me at sixty one which was the normal age but I said, I was not ready to go, I was very friendly with the em, I was very friendly with the MD and I stayed on until just before I was sixty five. That’s a long time ago.
DE: When was that?
GW: 1988. When I retired I spent a few months not doing a great deal except getting used to being retired and that sort of thing. We bought a new house in Hampshire, I already had a house in Aldershot which we sold and I bought another one just outside of Hindhead in Hampshire. I always had an interest in local politics but something I could never indulge in because of my in and out of the country all the time. Fortunately I got tied up with the local Conservative Party and became the secretary and things like that. In 1989, one of the two district councillors from my village had to pack up for business reasons. I said I would be quite happy to stand if it was for them, I did and I got elected and that was the next phase of my life. I carried on doing that up until the end of January 19 – no not 19, the end of January 2007 when we moved here, because my daughter and son had both moved to Ruskington. My daughter moved into the army and when her husband retired, a lieutenant colonel he was working in Scotland and then they eventually went back to the house in Hampshire. Decided they knew nobody but had friends here, one day approached us in ’89, ‘we are thinking of moving to Lincolnshire will you come?’ So what do you say? And we said we would, this is what happened. Then my son came up and spent some time with his sister and also bought a house in Ruskington, so we are all living in the village. And we came here in 2007, January 2007, I resigned from my role as district councillor in Hampshire and saw the local Conservatives here and said, ‘can I be of any use to you?’ That’s another story so I have now finished eight years as a district councillor in North Kesteven. And have started my next four years as I have been elected again. So I have had eight elections and got through all of them, and here I am. Really not for the tape I suppose this bit.
DE: Would you like me to pause it?
GW: If you can for a second.
[Recording paused]
DE: Okay so we are recording again. So earlier on you said you didn’t want to join the navy or the army but you wanted to join the RAF. Why not the navy or the army?
GW: I had no desire to live in slit trenches [laugh] I had a pretty good upbringing, you know life was very nice with my family and things. I didn’t really want to go and rough it in the trenches, perhaps I was too fastidious. The thought of going to sea for weeks on end and being perhaps seasick or anything like that I don’t know. I had no interest in them and perhaps I should go back and finish the story of my brother who was a captain, he was a prisoner of war, he contracted pulmonary TB whilst he was a prisoner of war and was due to be exchanged, in 1944, before the war finished. The first exchange they had of prisoners and he had a big haemorrhage and did not come home. But he came back in February 1945 and eh, he was in hospital and he came home he died, in September ‘46. So that was the saga. My brother was as big a chap as I was, an excellent swimmer and he just contracted the disease and I saw him waste away.
DE: Yes, a terrible killer.
GW: I think he attended my wedding, a picture, and that was it, two months later he was dead. So to answer your question there, I had no desire. Don’t forget there was a certain amount of glamour about flying in those days and aircrew were considered to be cuts above some of the others perhaps and nobody knew the scale of losses that Bomber Command suffered. I could never have guaranteed that I would have survived if I had gone on beyond my sixteenth trip, no way.
DE: You wanted to fly then?
GW: Oh yes I was keen on doing it and more so when I got into it, em, I enjoyed the navigation side, I really did.
DE: That was another question em, how did you end up being a navigator rather than any of the other trades?
GW: Well this was the selection process, we had to do one or two tests. I suppose my maths was a little bit better than other people, or what they were looking for at the time. After all the personnel people in London knew what was going to happen in the future and they were planning accordingly. Perhaps there was a shortage of navigators. Remember I started off as an observer and I had to wear the “O” badge and not the “N” badge because we had done a little bit of gunnery, a little bit of bombing, a little bit of photography. Just to get the feel of it, em, when one was flying in Scotland I remember flying past the Blackpool Tower and having to take a photograph and getting that settled and that sort of thing, so we dabbled in the whole lot. It was that before the four-engine bomber coming in, okay the Stirling came in, in ‘42 wasn’t it? The build-up of the Lancaster they compartmentalised, or whatever the word is, we more or less specialised in the particular role. So navigation being the big thing. The bomb aimer up the front dropped bombs, he was also the front gunner and that was it, we had to go through a selection process and took various tests, including a maths test. That was it I was invited to train as an observer, and then actually flew operationally as a navigator.
DE: I see, thank you. You went through in great detail of the times and places where your training was. What was the experience like, leaving home and joining the RAF and the training?
GW: Remember I had left home before and I was living in lodgings in Hertfordshire. So I did use the word remember after the three weeks at Regent’s Park we went and I called it boot camp. Brighton that knocked out any thoughts that you were important at all [laugh]. The drill instructors they were moronic [laugh] without a doubt. I lived in the Grand Hotel in Brighton. We used to parade on the front and of course the AOC of the Training Group 54, that was it 54 Training Group, I can’t remember, was Air Commodore Critchley the great greyhound man and racing man. Nearly all his officers were jockeys, little shorties. We used to parade and these characters would be wandering around making sure we were standing to attention [laugh] then we used to go on drill and the sergeants we had were absolute morons. Lived in the Grand Hotel with none of its splendour. We had our folding beds with three mattresses and I think we had four blankets and two sheets. Every morning we had to make our own beds, and the sheets’ width when we folded them had to be the same thickness as the blankets. So you had blanket, sheet, blanket, sheet, blanket and one blanket round it. You realised within about twenty four hours of getting there that you were never going to sleep in the sheets, because if the bed wasn’t made up the way it was supposed to be. You got back to your hotel, back to your room and there would be the bed all over the place, knocked down by the sergeants, the DIs. Lots of drill, that was boot camp. We lived like that, had to get on with it, the weakest would not survive. Paignton was glorious, I must admit, the West Country was great, the weather was great and life was great. Eastbourne, no problems really except we had many a disturbed night’s sleep, hence the move of the unit to Bridgnorth where we were transferred. Then Stranraer in winter, I can think of better places. Although we were supposed to be the darlings of the world, aircrew cadets, we slept in Nissen huts in double bunks and half the course after we got into the flying side, half the course would be flying at night the others in the morning and there were sixty of us in the hut. It wasn’t exactly glamorous living, the food was awful and then from there it was to Lichfield, don’t remember much about it, I think we got on with more of the job of flying and things. Then Hemswell of course, we were okay, no not Hemswell, Lindholme, the Heavy Conversion Unit, it was mainly flying, we were NCOs, remember up in Scotland and up until graduation we were LACs, Leading Aircraftmen. Then on graduation became sergeants.
DE: Was there a great difference to how you were treated after you became sergeants?
GW: We used the sergeants’ mess, we weren’t restricted as much as when we were airmen. Again [unclear] after the flying, we did not have many administrative duties to do as aircrew. When one was on the Squadron was flying of virtually nothing.
DE: What did you do in your time off when you weren’t flying?
GW: We enjoyed ourselves [laugh] we were young enough to do that. It was on reflection later on in life when one was a little more mature, I had the greatest admiration for my pilot who had a very young son, was married and people like that who were in their thirties and things. We had nothing to lose quite frankly. I can never recall, standing on the peri-track waiting to go out to the aircraft thinking that we wouldn’t come back. There were some that did of course, some just had their problems. But no we really didn’t think that way we didn’t have that responsibility. Okay I had parents but parents are parents aren’t. No we just got on with the job, certainly from my point of view.
DE: Do you think it was different for your pilot having a young son?
GW: I don’t know quite frankly one didn’t talk in that sort of way. We were there as a crew, we lived together except for the pilot, for the, eh bomb aimer, who was an officer he lived in the mess the rest of us lived in a Nissen hut that’s the crew. My pilot was a great smoker, first thing in the morning he would put his hand out of the bed and get a cigarette then light it and then cough and wait for the wake-up call. He em, he’d never smoke in the air, he saw, when he was on his staff job he had a Polish pilot friend who used to get into the Blenheim or whatever they were flying and light up. One day he lit up and going down the runway opening up, the aircraft just went up. Bill’s view was had the aircraft been cleared for smoking then they would have allowed it, because everybody smoked in those days, or virtually everybody. Although he was a great smoker from the first light from waking up in the morning to going to bed, he never smoked in the air. And it used to be great fun because we’d get back, we did the odd nine hours sortie, we would all as we were taxying around to dispersal we would all get back to the rear door to get out to give him the clear run as soon as he had switched off his engines and done what he had to do. He was down that fuselage like a bull in a china shop, out of the aeroplane, over to the edge of the dispersal the great cigarette on [laugh].
DE: So did you not smoke then?
GW: I used to smoke a pipe. My dear father said to me if you are going to smoke, make sure you smoke a pipe. The first time I wore uniform, St John’s Wood, Regent’s Park, we got our uniforms that afternoon, three of us came out of the flats to go the cinema at Swiss Cottage and as we were just leaving the flats up came our young course officer. We threw him up a salute we thought, great stuff this is what you have to do, gave him a salute. He called me back and said ‘young man we don’t normally salute with a pipe in our mouth’ [laugh].
DE: The problems you had with your ears, what were the RAF medical services like, the medical officers in the hospital?
GW: Oh great no troubles at all.
DE: So what was the procedure for?
GW: Well in those days it was powder basically, the second time it was an injection [laugh].
DE: What in your ears?
GW: No it was a sort of type of penicillin we used if I remember. Certainly when I blew it the second time I finished up in hospital in Wegberg. I, used to get an injection for a few days, it was mainly playing it down. I had no trouble with them.
DE: So when the problem first occurred did you first have to report to the Medical Officer?
GW: Oh yes, landed you know I reported, told them what had happened in sick quarters. I can’t remember the time scale but a couple of days later I was off to hospital. I think Northallerton the RAF hospital there. I was there for a few weeks, it was there I was commissioned; I had to be let out of hospital to go down to, to go and buy my uniform and all that sort of stuff.
DE: So apart from when you had trouble with your ears you did not have any contact with the Medical Officer for any other reasons?
GW: No, nothing else wrong with me.
DE: You mentioned one point, I think when D-Day was on, you were actually at the aircrew reselection place at Eastchurch, I have read that this was a rather infamous place?
GW: In what way?
DE: I’ve read that was where people were sent who were LMF.
GW: Could be, wouldn’t know.
DE: Did you ever know or hear of anybody?
GW: Never met anybody, no.
DE: Any rumours?
GW: Possibly, yes possibly one heard about this sort of thing. There might have been some going through and of course they would have been shunted away. No chaps that sort of teamed up with they all went off to other flying duties.
DE: I’m also quite intrigued you – after the war you also got to flying Mosquitoes and Meteors and other aircraft. Which do you think was your favourite aircraft?
GW: Of those three? Oh the Lancaster without a doubt. I wasn’t a happy bunny in the all-weather world, I thought it was a blip chasing job and not a navigation job, but we did the odd navigation exercise and cross countries, n the main chasing another aeroplane, just as a blip on the screen was not my idea of navigation.
DE: Why did you want to get into Mosquitoes towards the end of the war?
GW: Well it was something new, one didn’t realise at the time. The second time I went back I had no choice I wasn’t meant to be back to it.
DE: So why in particular the Lancaster?
GW: Well of course it was the operational time of life. Remember my time on Mosquitoes and the jets was post-war it was only training all the time. Em, the Lancaster was just such a lovely aeroplane, it was reliable, it was fast for its time, mustn’t forget that. And one was doing the job for which one was trained. I was intrigued by navigation. I did do the staff and navigation course later on in life and part of that waiting to go on the course I spent a few hours on Canberras at Basingbourne before that closed down. Filling in time and then I went to Shawbury and did the staff N course. No navigation was intriguing and doing these long flights over to Germany in those days where you did not have all the facilities you have nowadays it was [laugh] it was a challenge.
DE: I suppose it was your job to see that your way should be in the bomber stream and arrived at the right time?
GW: Yeah absolutely. Yes you had it there and you had winds forecast and it was a forecast there was no met coming back from Germany [unclear]. I think the thing was, the only radar the Lancaster had was the Gee box and that used to get swamped by the time we got over Holland, about four degrees east you might get the odd circle afterwards. The big thing was to get as many wind fixes or fixes to take wind strength and things as you were flying over there from UK to Holland and then applying your own thoughts to the met forecast that you received and working on that and then, getting down to N=navigation and time keeping.
DE: Can you describe for me the process of getting a fix for the wind?
GW: Well take it from the radar, you knew the track you were flying, remember you had your map in front of you, your chart, get a fix on the Gee box and it was not analogue, you had to read it on the screen. So speed was of the essence, you get your fix, you plot it on the chart the Gee chart, transfer it onto the other chart. You knew what time you took it, you could work out where you should have been on your course, connect it up to your fix, which incidentally would tell you where you were relative to track and that would give you your wind speed and direction. Now speed is the essence, when you first started training you thought if you could do one, all this within ten minutes it was good going. After a little while on Lancasters and little experience you could do it in a couple of minutes. That was interesting when the war finished I told you I was going onto selection stage again. That we were flying Ansons and we were filling in time, this was at Half Penny Green and flying back on the Anson I could get a fix and read a book [laugh]. Peacetime flying and filling in time, I think I did a three hour cross country and only used one side of a log so completely happy. It is like everything else you become more experienced and more skilful. We weren’t too complicated with em, navigation aids or they could be. So really all we had was the Gee box and astro, we didn’t get any of the other things I think H2S came in and stuff like that. We never got that on 101 Squadron because we were carrying the extra body and extra equipment so the weight factor ruled it out.
DE: You mentioned Harris being at the briefing for the Peenemunde raid, what did you and your crew think to Harris?
GW: [laugh] what a man they called him Butch Harris. As a nineteen year-old two things that stood out at the briefing. First of all when we were all settled in the briefing room, we used to get officers not connected with operations coming in for briefings. I suppose the equipment officer or something like that. First thing he did was to order out anybody not directly connected with the raid. When that happened the curtains went back. He wasn’t gruff, no, another thing intriguing with him, sitting on the stage he had all these aircrew in front of him, what if we had twenty aeroplanes if we had that number, probably a little less, you were thinking in terms of a hundred and forty aircrew plus the various specialists who were also involved. So you had this whole room there, the Commander in Chief Bomber Command. Took a cigarette out of his case got his lighter to light it, it wouldn’t go, perfectly happy he kept flicking it until he did get a light. I thought that to some extent showed the calibre of the man, he wasn’t embarrassed, just got on with it and then at the end you know when he had the final word, his comment you know, ‘good luck chaps, but if you don’t get it tonight, you are going back tomorrow night and the night after’. I don’t suppose really it was until after the war, I read the Max Hastings book on the bomber offensive that one realised how lucky one was to survive sixteen trips. One might have thought then, God if I had known [laugh], who knows but, that’s how it was. It was a phase of life and I have often said it to people, I said it to a lady on Monday with two young children who was flag raising things who was asking me questions. I had to say to her, that 1939 onwards, we were all involved and there was a totally different approach to life from the recent, wars that we have had and God forbid I would have hated to be in any of these wars in Iraq and Afghanistan where you could not identify your enemy from anybody else, but it only impacted on a small percentage of the population, i.e., those that were involved and their immediate families and circle and so people like myself and other. My son never served, my son in law he was in Northern Ireland but he didn’t do Iraq he was out before that. It had no direct impact on us and unless you’ve lived in the ’39 –‘45 bubble and the build up to it before and possibly as it started, it is difficult to envisage how people felt. You can possibly see that as a historian.
DE: Oh most definitely, yes. Which kind of leads me to another question. What are your feelings and thoughts about how the war and in particular how Bomber Command and Harris have been remembered?
GW: Badly, Harris was the only major commander who did not become a viscount. He was fobbed off with a Knight of Garter or something I’m not sure. Never got it anywhere [pause] and a lot of that was connected I think with Dresden and people tend to look on Dresden in a romantic light of the city as it was and not what it actually was. It was a major stumbling block for the Russians to move westwards, it was a railhead, it had armaments there and God knows and therefore it was a prime target at that time. It should have been bombed, the fact that it was destroyed, part of the game. People do not talk about Hanover sorry Hamburg and that suffered just as badly as Dresden did. I can recall when I was in Germany in ‘46 having come out of Hamburg in an armoured car, standing on it on the autobahn outside, looking back and its sheer desolation. But we do not talk about Hamburg because it was an industrial port and things like that. So, Bomber Command were badly done by, I’m never certain that we deserved a Bomber Command medal per se. I think what they have done by giving us the bar is on par with what they did for Fighter Command, Battle of Britain. So they didn’t strike any particular gong for the Battle of Britain which after all was the saving grace of the country at the time. They got us through that period when we were most vulnerable to build on things to get to where they got to in the end. They got their bars, I am perfectly happy with the bar I have got on my aircrew Europe. That did differentiate anyway Bomber Command the people who flew up to D-Day. D-Day got the aircrew Europe Star. People after D-Day got the France and Germany. So yes but I do think that Harris got the bum’s rush so to say and I think he deserved more.
DE: Thinking back to the start of your interview you did mention that you witnessed being on the wrong end of some Luftwaffe bombs in London and again V1s and V2s and then you also talked about was it Cologne and looking down seeing the fires burning because you were in the third wave.
GW: On the last wave, yes. As we approached. I didn’t mention it but this is a real thought a real target somewhere about one o’clock, or later. As we were going along before we got to the target I was thinking had I been on leave, I would have been out or thinking about going home em, at about the time we were bombing. So a little wave and I emphasise the word, a little wave of sympathy went through about doing it and then then it disappeared completely. I had no compunction after that at all. There was a war we were doing it, these targets had to be bombed. I do know some people did suffer, I met a chap at a reunion of 101 Squadron two or three years ago. He lives out at Wragby if he’s still there and he was still having nightmares and hated the Germans. I didn’t, I haven’t had nightmares I must admit. I don’t hate the Germans in fact I lived in Germany after the war as a NAAFI official and I had a Berlin operation, I was in charge of Berlin at one stage completely divorced from the Berlin budget and what went on in the zone. I remember I had a lovely secretary Frau [unclear] whose husband was a real German officer from the Prussian side and one day she was going on about being bombed out, he was in Berlin at the time, he lived in the forest, Charlottenberg area and she talked about being bombed out in 1943. I said ‘what date was that?’ and she told me, ‘I went home because I’d been to Berlin’. Next I said ‘I wasn’t over here that night’ [laugh]. That’s how we got on and we kept in touch for many years after I left Berlin. She died several years ago, no I never had any problem. It’s a phase in life and I said to somebody the other day to me the war was very good because it got me out of printing [laugh] which I did not enjoy one little bit. In those days you know young chaps didn’t have a choice in careers, it was virtually sorted out by the parents. You didn’t have the freedom that they have nowadays. To become a printer was way up on top of the working ladder. Not so sure it is nowadays with unions and who knows what, but no, for me it was a release. Also taking the chance that I did because when I packed it up I was only on a four year commission to start with and I got my permanent commission when I was there.
DE: And then got to see a bit of the world a bit?
GW: And see a lot of the world, so very privileged.
DE: Smashing, I think I have ticked all the little notes I have made. Right at the end if you could tell me your thoughts on the memorial itself that we are building.
GW: I think it is a wonderful idea. I first met the Lord Lieutenant when I, shortly after I became a district councillor and we had our annual civic service and I remember going to that. I was a very new boy, this was in 2007 and the leader of the council, Mayor Marion Brighton introduced me to him, because I had been in Bomber Command and we chatted. I remember him saying to me, I think that this was before the London memorial was built, ‘I think it should be here in Lincolnshire, not in London’. So many of the boys took their last steps in Lincolnshire, you know the twenty two thousand, too their last steps in this county. I remember saying to him, “I quite see where you are coming from sir, I called him sir, but at the end of the day London is the capital of the country and a memorial of that sort should be in London’. I admire him because he did not take any action or overt actions until that was up and then he started. I think he has done a wonderful job and he has an RAF background through his father and his grandfather ha, ha. And I think he is still doing it and I look forward to still being here on the 2nd of October. Who is going to do it or is that still hush, hush.
DE: It is still hush hush.
GW: I don’t care, just want to be here.
DE: Thanks very much.
GW: Pleasure, nice to talk to you.
DE: Oh no pressed record. This is Geoffrey Whittle again, same day same place.
GW: The daily routine on the squadron assuming you hadn’t flown the previous night. Usual thing, get up in the morning, breakfast, go down to the flight or the squadron and Ludford Magna, we lived on one side of the Louth Market Rasen road and the airfield was on the other side. So you go down to the, squadron, might be something going on locally, or not very much. But the main focus was on what was going to happen that night, so you’d be waiting for the battle order to come out. Soon as that was out and pinned up you looked to see if you were on. If you were on the op then your day was conditioned. As a navigator, we would more often than not have pre-nav briefings before the main briefing, that would be a fixed time. Go out to the aircraft and meet the ground crew, not necessary the same aeroplane every time eh, check it over, your own little bit. The gunners would go do what they wanted to do. Then back of to lunch. If I had a nav briefing in the afternoon then you would go down and do your pre-flight planning, then back to the billet. Then off course main briefing, meals main briefing that sort of things, off you go. We were flying in the summer time so all our trips were pretty late at night. Take off, your take off time was fixed then off you go and then ninety percent of the time you would be climbing over base to an operational height and the skies over Lincolnshire used to be pretty full of aeroplanes I can tell you. We developed a system of getting out of it. Saw no point in hanging around, circling with all these people doing the same thing, so we, so we used to shoot off west and climbing steadily and my job then as a navigator to get them back at height over base at the right time, then we would set course. Do the op, get back, land, debrief, breakfast, bed. Sometimes bed would not be until five of six o’clock in the morning. I told you earlier on after our Berlin trip there was no bed it was into Louth, getting the train off on leave. That was it and that went on day in and day out. Then of course we did not fly during the moon period, then you were free, you could do what you liked. There was no booking in or booking out at the guardroom, as senior NCOs and officers you could do as you liked.
DE: So where did you go?
GW: Used to go into Louth.
DE: What were the attractions in Louth?
GW: I couldn’t possibly tell you [laugh]. I could actually it was quite innocent I met a very nice young lady whose parents owned the, was it the Kings Head in Louth? It’s deteriorated, it was quite a nice hotel in these days and they also owned one in Boston. She ran the one in Louth and the parents ran the one in Boston and I would go into Louth and stay the night. Separate rooms I hasten to add. There was none of that nonsense going on in these days. Well it did go on but it didn’t go on in my life. So I would go into Louth or might stay in for the evening and go to the mess, whatever was going on, but, we were not restricted, we were free.
DE: Did you ever go to the NAAFI?
GW: Not as a sergeant. We lived on NAAFI food in Scotland I can tell you the mess food was dire, it was so appalling we had to use it. Yes as an airman I would go into the NAAFI but once one graduated if that was the right word, it was sergeants’ mess, you didn’t go to the NAAFI.
DE: Okay.
GW: They were nothing like they are today I can tell you or they were. They don’t operate in this country now.
DE: Yes quite. Okay thank you very much, I shall press stop again.
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AWhittleG150626
Title
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Interview with Geoffrey Whittle
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:18:13 audio recording
Description
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Squadron Leader Geoffrey Whittle was born in London. After leaving school at fourteen he became an apprentice printer in the family business. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force on the outbreak of the Second World War and trained as a navigator. He served with 101 Squadron at RAF Ludford Magna. For his fifteenth operation to Hanover, he was awarded the DFM. Having suffered a perforated eardrum on his sixteenth operation, he was grounded for six months. He then flew briefly with Air Sea Rescue. At end of the war, he joined the RAF Regiment on a short-term commission but continued to serve on both ground and flying duties until retirement in 1961. He then worked with the NAAFI (Navy Army and Air Force Institutes), becoming a senior manager, until 1988. He subsequently became a councillor in Hampshire and Lincolnshire.
Creator
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Dan Ellin
Date
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2015-06-26
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Mal Prissick
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea
Germany--Peenemünde
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
Germany--Hannover
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1943-06-25
1943-09-27
1944
1945
101 Squadron
1656 HCU
27 OTU
air sea rescue
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Bombing of Peenemünde (17/18 August 1943)
briefing
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
Gee
H2S
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
Lancaster
Master Bomber
Meteor
mine laying
Mosquito
navigator
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
Operational Training Unit
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF West Freugh
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/343/3510/PVarneyE1501.1.jpg
2004f976156c1d3b87093033ead86f89
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/343/3510/AVarneyE150629.2.mp3
e637761d9a1110a451a0ad8d9c4cc084
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Varney, Eric
E Varney
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. One oral history interview with Eric Varney (1925 - 2015) and three photographs. 28 operations as a mid upper gunner with 207 Squadron from RAF Spilsby.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Eric Varney and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-06-29
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Varney, E
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM. Ok then Eric, this interview is being conducted by the International Bomber Command Centre and the interviewer is me Annie Moody, obviously you are Eric Varley and this interview is taking place at MrVarneys’ home at Wath Upon Dearne on the 28th no, the 29th of June 2015. So if we start can you just confirm your date and place of birth?
EV. My date of birth was February 25.
AM. And where were you born Eric?
EV. West Maldon in fact about three or four hundred yards from where I am living now.
AM. And what sort of thing, what did your Mum and Dad, what was your family background?
EV. Well, my Dad was a miner all his life, he lived to about seventy one. My Mum lived to about the same time, she died of pneumonia and that’s it, well I had three brothers, there were four of us, all lads.
AM. Were you youngest, oldest?
EV I was the second oldest, the older one he later joined the army. I served with the RAF, my next younger brother served with the RAF and the youngest brother served with the RAF.
AM. All four of you?
EV. All four of us passed for Grammar School as well, broke a record.
AM. Excellent, so how did you come to be in Bomber Command then?
EV. I just decided I wanted to fly. So I went to Sheffield and joined up, well asked to join the RAF. Every day for to months I came home from work and said to my mum, have they come? Eventually my papers came and I went for an interview at Birmingham, near Birmingham, yes Birmingham.
AM. What was that like, the interview?
EV. I have never been to, apart from Huddersfield and Cleethorpes this was the only place I had been to before that. So it was a bit of an adventure but I enjoyed it, went down all right. Then later I got the papers to join the RAF and then I had to go, I’m sure it was to St Johns Wood, London where we were in flats,accommodation flats that the RAF had taken over from the public I should imagine. Then we went through all the necessary medicals and injections and whatever. Went to Lords cricket ground for exercise and to the Zoo I think it was, to the Zoo where we had our meals, carrying the cups and knifes and forks. [pause]
AM. How long were you there for?
EV. We were there about four or five weeks, I forget, maybe six weeks. We went on guard at the gates of the flat complex, you could hear the ack ack guns going and whatever when the raiders were coming over London. Then we got posted from there, I’m sure I went to Bridgenorth in Shropshire, we had to white wash the pebbles outside the huts, it was very strict, very, very strict indeed. There we done basic training marching, gun shooting on the range and just basics, yes that’s right, went there. Our Sergeant, Sergeant Leech he was about the smartest Sergeant there, he was brilliant I’ll never forget his name, Sergeant Leech.
AM. What was brilliant about him?
EV. He was smart and he was good, there were maybe four or five could I say platoons of men, each with about thirty or so in and each had, each Sergeant in charge had to go and report all present and correct when we were on parade each morning. Sergeant Leech he were good, yeah, he were good. Anyway after that we got posted then to Walney Island that’s near Barrow on Furness to number ten Air Gunnery School there we did flying on Ansons piloted by Polish pilots mainly. They were good they used to chase sheep over the hills.
AM. In the planes?
EV. They were good lads and we used to extend drones of course out of the back, and we used to fire guns at them. There used to be two people beside the pilot on each take off, so then one used to wind out the drogue and the other used to shoot at it with the guns.
AM. How did they decide you were going to be an Air Gunner?
EV. I asked you know, if I could be an Air Gunner. After seeing one or two films on local television before I joined up. Yeah I wanted to be an Air Gunner. When at AGS Air Gunnery School at Walney Island we did photo recognition, aircraft, all aircraft English and German on slides. So we did dismantling breech blocks from guns blind folded because we wouldn’t be able to see what we were doing, and with gloves on, so we could take them apart and reassemble them in the dark. So we would have to do that before flying but I never had to do that. We used to have to practice it, we used to have a kitty, six pence each into the kitty, “should I say that?”
AM. Yes carry on.
EV. The quickest person to do it, won the kitty. That’s where I met my other Air Gunner, David, Gwyn David Morgan Watkins, Welshman by the way. I expect you got that from the name. We stayed together all the way through the rest of our RAF career, yeah we did virtually, yeah. Yes so after that we got postings to different squadrons well his initial being W.Watkins and mine being V.Varney next to each other in the alphabet really. So we got posted together which was good and we went from there and went for training, “where did we go? I just forget where we went.” Anyway we went to RAF Station and there, what they did they posted maybe forty Air Gunners, twenty Pilots, twenty Navs, twenty [pause] Bomber Aimers, twenty Wireless Ops so that, and eventually you just crewed up by having a meal together or sitting next together in the Mess whatever. Gunners usually stayed in pairs.
AM. Why?
EV. Well you come through your training together so you stayed together. So me and Taffy started so we more or less picked a bloke and said Bomb Aimer, you got your brevet and your sergeant tapes.You got your brevet so you got talking to a chap and you thought he seems ok, “are you crewed up?” “No.” “Ok would you like to join with us?” From that I think it was mostly Gunners I think what did the crewing up first and then you looked round for a Pilot eventually, you have got to have a chauffeur, So yeah and that’s how you crewed up. All but the Engineer, you didn’t have an Engineer at that stage because we were only going to go on Wimpies which don’t have an Engineer. Because it is only a two engine job, your Pilot has already flown two engine jobs. After that when we did our basic training on Wimpies we moved onto Stirlings, there we picked up an Engineer, so there was a total crew of seven then. Stirling, not a very good aircraft but we managed. Then after that we moved onto Lancasters at another Lancaster Finishing School, I just forget where that was, somewhere near Nottingham but I can’t say for sure. After the Lancaster Finishing School then you were posted to a Squadron.We got posted to 207 Squadron at Spilsby and from there we started on Operations.
AM. What year was that, when would that be Eric?
EV. That would be around Christmas time, er, Christmas time forty four.
AM. Christmas time forty four.
EV. Cause I was only nineteen then, anyway after that we just carried on doing ops until the end of the war.
AM. When you say we just carried on doing ops, can you remember your first one, what was that like.
EV. I can remember the first one yeah, because I didn’t go with my own crew. They were a Gunner short on a crew, can’t just think of the name now. I went as a spare bod on that crew and they frightened me to death[laugh]. They had a rubbish Nav to be honest and he never kept in line. They were first fifteen degrees to port and twenty degrees to starboard then fifteen degrees to port. He could never keep on line in the stream, you know in the stream we should be in. Anyway having got back I went, I was on for the second night, so I objected and I said I would prefer not to go, I didn’t go. Anyway I carried on with my own crew and I put our survival down to one person, the Nav. We had a brilliant Navigator, he was brilliant. Never off the track, always cool although he was Scot, but he was good and that is what I put our survival down to. Always in the bomber stream always there, its only the stragglers I reckon that got picked up mainly.
AM. What was it like being in the bomber stream?
EV. When we were flying out,we normally when we were going over France and that way across to Germany. We used to fly down, I think, down towards Reading. The first guy used to fly out over the sea and next one a bit less until all the squadron were airborne then we would fly down and you would see thirty or forty aircraft. It were daylight maybe at that time or just getting dusk and em you used to think, what will it be like when it gets dark, and there is another ten, fifteen squadrons joining us to make a total of five hundred. At times you could look up from the turret and see aircraft above, you could nearly count the rivets, used to be, when you were over the target because it was so light from below. So you used to ask the Skipper to turn either to port or starboard just a little bit, to avoid him dropping any bombs on you. It were pretty crowded over the target at times, but er, fortunately we, we got away with it. Only once did we go over the target several times and that were at Dresden. The Bomber Aimer did not put the heater switch on for the bombs so we couldn’t release them. When he released the bombs, nothing happened, well when he tried to release the bombs, nothing happened. We made two or three approaches before, and that made us behind the total. The skipper was thinking about fuel so he could not push on too fast because we would not have had enough fuel maybe to get back, because they did not allow you too much fuel, you just took enough for the journey at normal speeds. Anyway we did make it back ok safe and sound, a bit late but safe and sound.
AM. What happened to the bombs?
EV. Eventually he got them off, yeah when, after he put the switch on, oh yeah they did, he took, but they had frozen up with moisture and freezing temperatures.
AM. So the heat switch was to stop that happening,that he should have put on?
EV. He should have put that on but he didn’t and once coming back over the Channel another slight incident, we were only maybe two and a half thousand feet and the engines cut. The Engineer had switched to the wrong tanks and that was only on the quick thinking of the Pilot who said tanks, switch back and managed to start the engines. After that Rem advised or made the Engineer go on a three day refresher course. He was very strict our Skipper, if we had smoked he would have shopped us, no doubt. He said I am going to get you there and get you back in one piece, he was a New Zealander by the way, “What else?”
AM. No,no it is quite interesting just knowing the detail that you can remember, It’s fascinating. You showed me a photo earlier that we had taken a picture of. Was that the same crew that you were with all the way through?
EV. Yes, yes
AM. I will get the names of you afterwards then I’ll get the names of all the crew to go with the photograph.
EV. We stayed together as a crew all the way through. After the war when we finished flying the Bomb Aimer did tell me that he trained as a Navigator, fell out with his crew and retrained as a Bomb Aimer. So in actual fact we had a partly trained Navigator on board as well as a Bomb Aimer, as well as another Nav which were good. That’s what he did, he fell out with his crew and he retrained, he went to Canada and retrained as an er,Bomb Aimer. Yes so.
AM. How many operations did you do?
EV. Twenty eight.
AM. That was a full tour, just under?
EV. Yes, yes the war finished then.
AM. You said you have been to Dresden, where else did you fly, can you remember?
EV. Leipzig, Cologne, er [Pause], Dortmund Ems Canals, Frankfurt, Leipzig that was a bad one, we lost quite a few on Leipzig. Eh.
AM. From your squadron or from other squadrons?
EV. I’m sorry, ten hours twenty was the longest and that was to a place in front of Russian advance, what do they call it now, some petrol, oil refinery place eh, I can’t just think what they call it now. Ten hours twenty that was the longest trip.
AM. What was it like being in the plane for ten hours twenty?
EV. Well we had heated suits and heated gloves,well gloves that pressed onto your shirt, or onto the cuffs of your flying suit with press studs and on your shoes you had slippers insoles that went onto clips on the bottom of your trousers and you plugged the whole lot into the aircraft. So you got heated suits, so, the only thing that wasn’t, that was open to air was your eyes. You know we had helmets on, oxygen masks and clothes of course, so your eyes, but you used to get icicles on your eye lashes from the moisture from your eyes. You used to also get icicles on the bottom of your oxygen mask because I think the coldest temperature we recorded was minus sixty three which is cold. Its not sixty three that is fahrenheit which is not as cold as sixty three centigrade, but it were cold and so we had about four pair of gloves on starting with the, I think the chamois leather, silk, a pair of ordinary gloves then a pair of leather gauntlet type gloves, so plenty of clothing.
AM. So how did you manage to operate you guns with all that lot on?
EV. Well you got to use them, yeah you had four pair of gloves on. You needed your gloves and everything and your feet sometimes your feet, you finished up with one foot frozen the other one on fire ‘cause suits were not all good eh. We had chocolate, they gave us chocolate to take to eat but before we set off there was a little tray in the turret and you had to break it up first because if you didn’t it would have been frozen up solid. You get a chocolate bar with maybe a dozen pieces, you had to break it up and put it in your tray so you could get with it your gloves and get a piece and pull your oxygen mask of, put it in. It used to be in your mouth for about ten minutes before it started thawing[laugh] it was so cold. Yeh, on the way back the Wireless Op used to come down with a flask or cup of coffee so we could have that coming back. We used to put our hand like that from turret, he used to pass, I used to put my thumb into cup, into coffee[laugh] and then used to have a drink, yeah.
AM. So where were you, were you Mid Upper?
EV. Yes, because our Skipper would not let us out of the turrets at all, no.
AM. Why not.
EV. Well that was our place to be and nobody moved, [laugh] yeah. You had to go to the toilet before you went and whatever, so. Nobody roamed about, only the Wireless Op on the way back he used to bring me and Taffy a drink.
AM. Where was Taffy then?
EV. He was in the rear turret, well Joe used to go along onto, you’ve seen them inside have you? Down that front toilet, he used to stand on toilet, what do they call toilet Els? I just forgot what they call it, but it was. Used to stand on that and then had to slide down to the rear turret and Taffy used to open his rear turret you know put it central and open his doors. He would pass him a drink through, yeah.
AM. How did you, where did the coffee come from, a flask?
EV. Flask! oh yeah flask. We had nothing to drink going until we was on our way back and Joe used to do that, Rem would let him come down and bring us all a drink.
AM. Then what would happen when you landed after having been on a plane for that long?
EV. When we landed, transport used to pick us up and take us in for briefing, de briefing and eh, get coffee, cigarettes whatever you know and then after that it were bacon and egg and bed [laugh]. Yeah after briefing, used to have a briefing as to what you had seen, what you hadn’t seen, tell them how things had gone, everything. You all used to say you know, there used to be an Officer there interviewing everybody, asking questions and then off you went to bed.
AM. Ready for next day?
EV. Or same night. ‘cause it were morning then weren’t it? As we were coming back you could see the American Air Force going out if it were daylight. Yeah they were going out as we were coming back. Could see all the vapour trails from them, but they were very high, they used to get height in England I think before they left, cause there were all vapour trails behind them and when there were three or four hundred of them. You see them now, see odd ones, see half a dozen, you see a lot [unreadable] you see three or four hundred maybe, all going in the same direction, because they used to fly more in a formation because it was daylight. They used to keep together because they used to fly in daylight. Then they had an aircraft, what do you call it on patrol, fighter.
We went on a few daylights but er, there weren’t a lot, Cologne, Dortmund Ems Canal, on daylight, well we did I don’t know three of four, half a dozen.
AM. How different was that, to going at night?
EV. Not a lot because you didn’t, in fact they were better really, because you could see other aircraft that were round you which you couldn’t at night, it were all. My eyes used to stand out like chapel hat pegs when you were at night, staring just staring. Looking all the time, you know looking, looking, looking. Our instructions from the Pilot was Rear Gunner and myself we had to er, speak to each other every about five minutes unless he was in conversation with Navigator or anything else. We had to keep talking to each other to make sure we were not asleep. From my position I could see Taffies guns when they were pointing high. I could see his guns if he was scanning that way, rather than that way I could see his guns moving but eh yeah, we, we had to keep in touch with each other all the time. That was Pilots instructions and what Rem said went.[Laugh]
AM. How often did you actually use your guns, shoot your use your guns?
EV. We didn’t while we were on operations, we never had to, we never had to. We got flack through the aircraft, we never got a fighter in touch that we had to fire at, never, either of us, we were always in middle of airstream thanks to Navigator, that were the main thing I reckon and we didn’t wander of. They picked the ones from the outside with the fighters. I mean I have talked to German Pilots during the war er, what do they call him and his Navigator, they had the Shoory Musik (HD.Shrage Music) type aircraft with the guns upward firing. They put six Lancasters down in half an hour, yeah.
AM. When you say you talked to him, you mean after the war?
EV. Oh yes, in recent years while we have been going on these German trips. We must have been ten times, we’ve done several places in Germany. Last time we went, we went, they even took us to the place where they made the eh,[pause] you know the rocket fuel, “I forgot name of the place now” North east Germany, very east, it were in eastern Germany after division after the war and it were “began with S.” They made the rockets there as well, the ones that were flying over London, you know the Doodlebugs.
AM. Was this, who did you go to Germany with then after the war?
EV. After the war we went to Germany as a group for Doncaster Air Gunners, we formed a group there were maybe, originally there were about twenty seven, eight of us. We got in touch with the Germans and for twenty years we, alternate years we went to Germany and the other year we hosted them. We went to several German Night Fighter places and met some guys just like ourselves, maybe older because as a hole because they were Pilots and took, they had been training two or three years before they went into action. We only did about four and a half months before I was sergeant or so, that were difference. Yes we went to Silverheim that was one place, one near Rostok that near Baltic and they hosted us on their camps. The one near Rostok had been under the Russians until Germany were reinstated as a full country, I mean East Germany and West Germany it goes under East German rule. There you could still see the bullet holes on houses and damage that had been done during the war and that were thirty years after the war.
AM. How did you get on with the Germans and what sort of things did you talk about?
EV. They were fantastic, yeah, I have still got three people that I send cards to yeah. One in Bremen, one in Hamburg and one who were a POW here and married an English girl and lived here for thirty five years and then went back to Germany. He was good for translation having spoken English for thirty odd years. They treated us, we always stayed in Officers Mess quarters on the German camps. Sometimes they put us up in hotels, same as we did. Sometimes we had them at Finningley, early on but later on we had to find accommodation, we took them to different hotels and hosted them for three or four days, hired coaches and took them round to see the sights of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire, whatever. There were one German Pilot, he got shot down and landed in the North Sea, Herbert Thomas was his name. I will never forget Herbert, although he was a German his name was Herbert Thomas. He was shot down in the Chanel or North Sea, he got rescued and in appreciation for the chap in the boat that rescued him and giving him a cigarette, he gave him a watch. He gave him his watch did Herbert he gave him his watch. Now I should say maybe ten or twelve years ago from now that watch was given back to Herbert Thomas by the fellow who had it all those years. Yeah we arranged that, that were arranged by[pause] part of the Doncaster Air Gunners Group and gave him back the watch that he had given. That were done at Bridlington, when we had the Germans over at Bridlington.
AM. What made you in the first place go and meet the Germans?
EV. Well, ok how it started really was there was an aircraft shot down, a British Lancaster shot down and “I am just trying to think hard.” Oh yeah, there was only one survivor in this aircraft. I’ve got photos of this, I were looking at them yesterday. This airman, I have just forgot his name now, he was caught up, the local people caught him. There was a chap, a German army guy, he took him because they wanted to do our airman harm, you know the people of Germany. He took charge of him, handed him to the proper authorities so that he would be a POW and no harm would come to him. Well in later years this German person, I can’t remember his name now, can’t just think of his name, he built a Memorial in the wood where this aircraft came down. Every year he used to put flowers and whatever on this memorial. Well what, we got in touch with him, I just forgot how it happened. We got in touch with him and he invited us over to go to see this Memorial, which we did and from there on it developed into us being a bi annual event. We kept going over to Germany and that’s how it started the first thing did. We contacted the German Luftwaffe and it just escalated from there. With their ex flyers and us we got together, but that’s how it did started. An aircraft got shot down and they wanted to lynch this airman who got caught.
AM The Bomber?
AV Yeah, oh you can understand to a certain extent, the army guy, “I forgot his name” he took charge and handed him into proper authorities so that he were a POW. Yeah he was the only survivor from that aircraft and that were it. Yeah that’s how it started with that.
AM. You still keep in touch with some of them now?
AV Yeah, yeah, yeah, so
AM What happened to your brothers I think you said one was RAF, the other two were Army.
AV. My older brother Army, he’s still around but at the moment he is more or less bed fast, he is two years older than me. My next younger brother, Raymond, he was in the air force, he went for his two years, military, training after the war and he stayed in for twenty four years. Unfortunately he died about ten years ago and my younger brother he went for his two years but only stayed in for two years in the RAF. He came out, he’s still around, I was on the phone to him this morning [laugh] So that’s all of us.
AM. You all survived the war?
AV. Yeah but other two were younger they didn’t go in war. They just went up you know when they used to call people up for two years. They went for that two years but Raymond stopped in for twenty four.
AM. What did you do after the war Eric?
AV. After the war I went bus driving, yeah, bus driving for four years, ten years down the mine, worked at the coal face. But I promised my Dad who was a miner all his live that I was just going down for ten years. I went down for ten years and three months and came out, got a nice home together and that was it. After that I went on long distance haulage which I loved yeah, after that twenty years, twenty five years hard work as a coal merchant, that were me finished. Retired when I was sixty two and carried on part time until I was eighty nine[laugh].
AM. Doing what?
AV. Working at race course.
AM. At Doncaster?
AV. Doncaster, Wetherby,Ripon,Thirsk,Wetherby,Newmarket,Haydock Park,Market Rasen I worked them all[laugh]
AM. What did you do?
EV. On security, on some security I were working with Judge, Stewards and photo people, you know camera people. Also worked on car parks, that was since I retired, when I was sixty two, but I have finished work now.
AM. How old are you know?
EV. I’m. eighty nine, ninety in five weeks
AM. Off course, fifth of August.
EV. Yes
AM. And what about Bomber Command now then, what about the way people view Bomber Command?
EV. Well, they always, a lot of people did not like the Dresden trip. Not the RAF people but other people said that Dresden should never have been bombed, but eh I think it were a legitimate target, same as all the others. I mean they didn’t think that when they were bombing London, Hull, Coventry and our cities, so yeah, I mean yeah I still think the RAF do a good job, I do really. We’ll not get on to deal with politics [Laugh]
AM. Maybe not, maybe not. Anything else you can think of?
EV. I have enjoyed my life, enjoyed my life.
AM. Good, and still do, you are coming out with us in October to see the Spire?
EV. Yeah, after the war I visited my other Gunner in South Africa, Taffy, went and visited him for three weeks. The Pilots been over to England from New Zealand, he has been over about four times since the war, so you know, yeah. I still phone the Pilots wife in New Zealand, the other Gunner Taffys’ wife in South Africa, the Bomber Aimers wife in Warrington, the Wireless Ops wife in Cottingham, Hull. So I keep in touch with them as much as I can. Yeah, I do phone them, I were talking to err, Sheena at Hull only a couple of days ago and Chrissie at Warrington I talked to her a week ago yeah.
AM. So although it was only a couple of years of your life its lasted right through to now. You noted that you still keep in touch with people right through to now.
EV. Oh yeah, yeah. Rems wife came over with him a couple of times not every time but a couple of times, he also brought Betty with him a couple or three times. We have had reunions in Hull, reunions in Edinburgh with the Nav and whatever, so.
AM. And we have the photograph with them all on, I’m going to switch off now Eric but if we get that photograph will switch back on while you tell me who they all are.
EV. Yeah.
AM. Ok so we have a photograph of Eric and his crew which we have taken a copy of and Eric is going to talk through who they all are.
EV. Top left Ronnie Moor, Bomb Aimer, next Jim Henderson, Engineer, next one is Ren Waters, New Zealand, Pilot, Malcolm Staithes is next on the top Malcolm Staithes, Wireless Op, Taffy Watkins, Gwyn Davies Watkins Morgan, Navigator Ian Stewart next then myself Eric Varney bottom right.
AM With a big grin on your face.
EV. Yes.
AM. Wonderful thank you Eric.
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AVarneyE150629
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Interview with Eric Varney
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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eng
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00:51:39 audio recording
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Annie Moody
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2015-06-29
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Eric Varney completed 28 operations as a mid upper gunner with 207 Squadron from RAF Spilsby. After the war Eric worked as a bus driver, coal miner, long distance lorry driver and coal merchant.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Cologne
Germany--Dortmund-Ems Canal
Germany--Dresden
Germany--Frankfurt am Main
Germany--Leipzig
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
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Hugh Donnelly
207 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
memorial
military service conditions
RAF Barrow in Furness
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Spilsby
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/146/3505/ATaylorWH150710.2.mp3
1d51f0f6e10e9267096b78aab5b85a34
Dublin Core
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Title
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Taylor, William
William Henry Taylor
William H Taylor
W H Taylor
W Taylor
Description
An account of the resource
Two items. An oral history interview with William Henry Taylor (2214212 Royal Air Force) and a typewritten memoir.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-07-10
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Taylor, WH
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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I’m Ron Meredith and I’m conducting an interview at the moment with Mr Taylor who I’m going to ask to introduce himself. We are actually doing this from his own home in Tattershal and I’m em, sure the rest of this will be quite interesting. Not only did Mr Taylor serve during the War and become a prisoner of War he served on the “V” force with Nuclear Weapons as well, so there is a little story behind this, over to you Sir.
WT. What ?
RM. You are.
WT.My History?
RM. The first thing to say is “I am.”
WT. Who I am?
RM. I’d rather not prompt you unless I have to and if you could just tell it as you wish. Absolutely as you wish.
WT. From the word go?
RM. From the time you signed up first or were called up first, yes.
WT. To?
RM.To whenever you decide.
WT. My name is William Henry Taylor, known as Buck throughout my service. I joined the Air Force in Nineteen Forty Two and er. Actually when I went to join up I went to join the Navy but it was out for lunch so the RAF Recruiter got hold of me and he said “I am sure you would like to be in the Air Force and be a Pilot.” I didn’t even know what a Pilot was, I was only seventeen I told them I was eighteen to get in and eh did a few months refuelling aeroplanes and things like that and em after a period they were asking for volunteers for Aircrew and I became Aircrew. Eh, went through all my courses, did my course as an Air Gunner at Andreas on the Isle of Man and from there on we did various other aircraft, Ansons, Wellingtons and eh at a certain, I forget exactly when it was but it was in nineteen forty four I think, end of Forty Three I think, we were all put into a hanger at RAF Finingley and told to crew up and eh everybody.
RM. What Squadron was this by the way?
WT.No Squadron, just Aircrew that had passed out and, so forth, and this Pilot came to me and said”I like the look of you will you become a member of my Crew, you know be my Gunner?” I certainly would like to be, so we crewed up at Finningley and then as a Crew we went to the OTUs and this and that and the other on Halifaxes, Lancasters and goodness knows what and then eventually posted to Elsham Wolds 103 Squadron and eh. Funny thing about being Aircrew, I didn’t know anybody but my Crew. We didn’t mix; we just kept together the seven of us and eh, slept together, ate together, went out for drinks together and so on. Then we were thrown into the War like Soldiers do, go over the top and eh, commenced Operations. Eh, very dangerous I might say, you were going through flak, like snowflakes there was that much stuff coming up at you, you were wondering how you got through that. Wondering how the Pilot thought, how am I going to get through that? What we did, did several, numerous operations, and finally there was a target just about fifty miles from Paris that we did, it was a place called Ruevigdies. We went there, it was a nine hour trip there and back and em, the first Operation on it, you know numerous Lancasters involved. Couldn’t find the Target and all the rest of it and it was just a waste of time and two nights later, and we lost a few Aircraft on that trip. Then a couple of days later we were told we were going back again to bomb it that night. We reached the target but couldn’t find it, the Pathfinder people couldn’t find it because of the weather, foggy and so forth. We stooged around in circles for quite a bit, aircraft colliding with each other and I don’t know, a bit rough and the next thing I knew on this one, having left the target, well actually the thing is eh, we were told to come home the trip was cancelled. The Master Operator who was looking after the job told us all to go home and my Pilot said to the Crew “We haven’t come all this way twice to come home each time, having done nothing, I think I know where the target was” So we did a bit of a detour around the place and he said “this is it” and we dropped out bombs and headed for home. On the way home we were being attacked and the next thing I knew there was a big explosion behind my turret and eh, the Pilot asked everybody if they were all right and the Bomb Aimer was dead and the Mid Upper Gunner was dead. I found out later after the War we had been hit by one of those Messerschmitt 110 with upward firing guns. The aircraft just went into a dive, a very steep dive and all I could hear was the Pilot shouting “God save me” you know and I thought we are not going to get out of this very well. So I got out of my turret, put my parachute on and the entrance door to the aircraft was just behind my turret. I thought crikey if I jump out I will be in the propellers before we know where we are. So I went back in the turret, all this happened in seconds, I swung the turret on the beam and leant back like that and the slip stream got hold of me and threw me out. Tumbling through the sky, fortunately I remembered to pull my parachute thing and I landed four to five hundred yards from where the aircraft hit the deck. And eh, a big saga from then on, being captured, going through [unreadable] Luft, you know the interrogation centre. A lot of this travelling from France to eventually the Prisoner of War Camp took a couple of weeks on trains, lorries and so forth. It ended up being this Luft 7 a place called Bankow in Poland. And eh, not very nice, a new camp surrounded by high wires gun turrets and goodness knows what and eh after a period of er,well not long three or four months, we were told to get up and marched off in the snow, it was snowing like billyoh. We marched from Poland to just outside Berlin, a place called Leukenwalde. We lost lots and lots of men in the snow, it never stopped snowing for weeks.
RM. Roughly what year would this have been?
WT. It was called the Death March.
RM. Exactly what year was that, was that Forty Four or Forty Five?
WT. It was February Forty Four. Yes that’s when the March started, it took us three weeks and we ended up at this Leukenwalde which was a Camp for all Nationalities, you know Americans, Poles you name it and the French, they were the most numerous Prisoners in this Camp. They lauded it over us, they really did, yes. Eventually we were released by the Russians. The Russian Tank Squadron came to the Camp and just mowed the wires down and the turrets and everything and they wanted us to get on the tanks and go to, they were heading for Berlin, to fight with them in Berlin. I don’t think anybody volunteered. We hadn’t been fed for ages; we couldn’t have fought if we had tried. Then eh, as I say after this release by the Russians we were flown back to England by the Americans and eh, my War as such was over. I hadn’t enjoyed it too much [laugh]. I’m sorry.
RM. It’s an amazing story though, amazing story, but that wasn’t the end for you, you decided to soldier on, rejoin.
WT. Yes well er, we were all demobbed we were only in for the duration of the present emergency. I had no option, I had to go and I was a Warrant Officer and I couldn’t stand the quietness and whatever of Civvy Street. So after a few months I rejoined the Air Force and asked if I could fly again. No they don’t need flyers anymore, they would give me training as an Engineer, Ground Engineer and I accepted that. Then stayed in the Air Force plodding gently through all the ranks till I reached Warrant Officer again in Nineteen Seventy Four. The main thing that I was stationed at RAF Wittering as a Crew Chief on the Victor Bomber and eh, flew ‘round the World on that many, many times, you know. If I could have stayed at that I would have done, but they said no you are promoted to Flight Sergeant and off you go. I was posted to RAF Coningsby, went to America on the trials of the Phantom, myself and ten men. A year we did out there and came back and went operational on 54 Squadron and worked very hard to get that going. I was awarded or rewarded with the BEM for all my activities and stayed there till my service was completed in Nineteen Seventy Seven on my fifty second birthday.
RM. Well that is quite a remarkable story and I’m sure that will be of interest to many, many people over the years.
WT. Was it all right.
RM. Yes indeed, thank you so much.
WT. Can I listen to it?
RM. The only way you can listen to it
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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ATaylorWH150710
Title
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Interview with William Taylor
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:15:37 audio recording
Conforms To
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Pending review
Creator
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Ron Merrideth
Date
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2015-07-10
Description
An account of the resource
William Taylor joined the Royal Air Force in 1942 as ground crew. He remustered as an air gunner and flew operations with 103 Squadron from RAF Elsham Wolds, flying Lancasters. His Aircraft was attacked and shot down by a night fighter in July 1944. He baled out, was captured and became a prisoner of war. In February 1944, he and fellow prisoners were sent on the long march away from the advancing Russians. Following demobilisation he rejoined the Royal Air Force and worked with the V Force at RAF Wittering. He was awarded a British Empire Medal and retired in 1977.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France
Germany
Great Britain
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
France--Revigny-sur-Ornain
Germany--Luckenwalde
Poland--Żagań
Poland--Tychowo
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-07
1945-02
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
103 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
bale out
crewing up
ground crew
ground personnel
Lancaster
Me 110
Operational Training Unit
prisoner of war
RAF Elsham Wolds
RAF Finningley
shot down
Stalag 3A
Stalag Luft 7
the long march
training
Wellington
-
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/PLarmerLO1507.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/289/3444/ALarmerLO151112.2.mp3
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Larmer, Lawrence
Lawrence Larmer
Laurie Larmer
L O Larmer
L Larmer
Description
An account of the resource
17 items concerning Flying Officer Laurence O'Hara Larmer (1920 - 2023, 430037 Royal Australian Air Force). Lawrence Larmer volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force and trained in Australia and Canada. He flew operations as a pilot flying Halifax with 51 Squadron from RAF Snaith. The collection consists of one oral history interview with him, wartime photographs of aircraft, aircrews and targets, his logbook, route maps, and an official certificate.
The collection was donated by Laurence Larmer and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-12
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Larmer, LO
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AP: This interview is for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive is with Laurie Larmer 51 Squadron, Halifax bomber during World War II. Interview taking place at Laurie’s house in Strathmore in Melbourne. My name is Adam Purcell it is the 12th of November 2005, 2015 in fact. Laurie we might start with an easy one, can you tell us something about your story before the war growing up what you did, before you enlisted?
LL: I was born in Moody Ponds eh in 1920, September 1923 and eh in 1931 or ’32 an old uncle of my father’s, my father was a painter and paper hanger by trade, during the depression there was obviously not that much work about but eh he managed and in 1931 or ’32 an old uncle by marriage of his died and he owned a hotel in South Yarrow and he left in his will that dad was to be given the lease of this hotel at a certain rental for as long as he wanted. So eh dad without any experience in the hotel business eh we moved into South Yarrow on the corner of Tourag Road and Punt Road and eh he ran this hotel until the old aunty the widow eh realised that the rental had been set in her husband’s will and she couldn’t do anything about it. So she did the next best thing as far as she was concerned, she sold the hotel. My father then moved to another hotel in Prahran and eventually in 1935 he went to a hotel in Ballarat and I went to school, St Patrick’s College Ballarat and I stayed there until I finished my schooling in 1940 eh in 1940 eh I got a job in the Department of Aircraft Production at Fishermans Bend where they were building the Beaufort bomber. Not on technical side, eh in the pay office actually I saw a lot about aeroplanes and what have you and eh in September 1941 I got called up for, I turned eighteen and got called up for a medical examination and eh it was for the army but to avoid going into the army you could volunteer for the navy or the air force. I volunteered for aircrew in the air force and was accepted. Did another medical exam, much stricter medical exam for the air force, aircrew actually, naturally and eh I then went back to work at Fishermans Bend until I got my call up sometime in 1942 and I went into the air force. So that is my pre-service history.
AP: Actually I might close that door if we can ‘cause it is noisy outside [pause] still there but it is not as loud. Okay where were you and how old were you when you heard war was declared and what were your thoughts at the time?
LL: I was, we were at Ballarat on the 3rd of September 1939 I was not quite eh not quite sixteen. I turned sixteen I turned sixteen a couple of weeks after the war was declared like most people I thought or hoped that the war wouldn’t last long and that I wouldn’t be affected. We were so far away that eh it all seemed a bit remote as far as we were concerned. And I certainly didn’t anticipate at that stage. I knew the talk was that kids of eighteen would be called up and I knew then or I thought then, the war would be finished before eh I got eh called up, but it was not to be.
AP: I guess you covered why you joined the air force based on some sort of experience with aeroplanes em why did you move in that direction in some sort of with aircraft. Was there some sort of inspiration that this was going to happen ?
LL: No I think that, I didn’t want to go into the army, the army just seemed to walk everywhere eh the eh hand to hand fighting didn’t sort of attract me. The navy didn’t attract me, I think there is a sort of glamorous feeling about the air force at that time. The Battle of Britain had just been fought and won and the eh airmen were eh I don’t know just a little bit different, and they seemed to just attract me a bit more than the other services.
AP: Can you tell me something about the enlistment process, were there interviews or tests or how did that all happen?
LL: The tests for the army of course was fairly simple, as long as you could stand up and breathe they accepted you for the A
army and that was only for home service. The fellows who wanted to go overseas volunteered for the AIF the call-up was actually for the militia because we didn’t have compulsory service for overseas, eh compulsory callout for overseas service. Eh the air force medical was much stricter, I always remember it was done in eh a place in Russell Street on the corner of Little Column Street were where Preston Motors were for many years after the war [cough] and eh we had eye tests which were particularly hard, they tested your heart and your blood pressure and all that sort of business which seemed a bit unusual for young fellows of eighteen, sixteen, eighteen we were at the time. I passed that and there was a delay of course of some months till they caught up. We were then to be trained under the Empire Air Training Scheme. That was sometime before I was called up, and I actually didn’t go into the air force until December 1942 so it was about twelve months after I volunteered for the air force I got my call-up to report to the service.
AP: Was there anything the air force gave you to do to sort of maintain the interest.
LL: We had to do school, night school, I went to the Essenham High School for two nights a week for about eight or ten weeks eh and we did maths and a few things like that. I can’t recall all the subjects we did, it wasn’t a matter of doing exams or anything. It was just to refresh us from our school days. Did a bit of geometry and angles and things like that, probably preparing us for navigation.
AP: Did you find that sort of training useful, did it help you when you got to your initial training school?
LL: It must have helped at initial training school. I was pretty good at maths even although I say so myself. This always confused me, I was never able to explain it. Two months, after two months at Summers which was the initial training school eh they came out one day, we were all there, they said ‘The following will train as pilots’ and they read a list of names. ‘The following will train as navigators’ they read a list of names and eh ‘the following will train as wireless operators’. And the balance for gunners. How they picked us I don’t know. I can only assume I must have done very, excellently, excellent at maths and those sort of things. Those picked to train as pilots and navigators stayed at Summers for another month. We did a bit of navigation and meteorology and a few things like that. But I, so I think that going back to school, the night school probably helped to refresh an interest in these subjects and it obviously paid dividends as far as I was concerned.
LL: What memories do you have of Summers, of ITS what was a typical day, what things did you do?
AP: Eh a lot of it seemed a waste of time we both knew an aircraft, they didn’t talk about an aircraft, they talked about Morse code and that was terribly important, I couldn’t take a word of Morse code couldn’t take a letter, I couldn’t understand it. Then a couple of nights later, the Aldis lamp I couldn’t even see that, it didn’t register at all. There was no way I was ever going to be a wireless operator and it wasn’t because I wasn’t trying, I just could not, couldn’t get the dots from the dashes in the Morse code. We seemed to do a lot of marching and eh, it was probably very necessary teaching us air force rules and regulations and all that sort of business. After a while you would say, ‘when am I going to see some action, when am I going to do something, when am I going to learn something about flying?’ Particularly once you had been charged to be a pilot you wanted to get on with it. Instead of that we did an extra month eh and then after that extra month I was posted to Benellah.
AR: Benellah was the– ?
LL: Elementary Flying Training School.
AR: What happened there apart from elementary flying training?
LL: Elementary flying training field, the first month we were there. Obviously the weather or something had held up the courses before and we were dragging the chain a bit. For a month we were known as tarmac terriers. We used to hold the wing of the aircraft because of the strong winds and of course Benellah which was a very open aerodrome no runways or anything it was just big one big huge enormous paddock eh and we’d hold, one fellow on either wing, the wing of the aircraft and we’d hold it till it got round there cause the wind would get under it, the aircraft was such a light aircraft, the Tiger Moth and then we would wait till they took off. You turned your back and you would get splattered with little stones and pebbles and that eh. And there would be fellows waiting down the other end when they landed to wait and hold them there and take them round. It was quite an interesting process, we had for half a day and the other half day we did, school, eh lectures on gunnery and eh basic flying without getting in an aircraft eh and navigation and a few things like that, meteorology particularly which was good. That was interesting even although we weren’t flying we saw these aircraft and we knew only in another couple of weeks and we would be there, then we started. We were allotted to an instructor, Jim Pope was my instructor, he was a sergeant a lovely bloke eh we then continued our lectures for half a day and fly for the other half. The next day it would be alternative, you know, flying and then lectures. It was good, I suppose after about eh it’s still sharp in my log book there, must have been twelve or fourteen hours or something went over to Winton one day which was a satellite ‘drome a bit further up the highway with another instructor. After we did one or two circuits and landings he said, ‘take me over there, pull up over there.’ Pointed to a spot where he wanted to go, he said, ‘now’, he said, ‘you are on your own, do three circuits and bumps and then come and pick me up’. I thought ‘goodness gracious me, here I am on my own’, you know, I was ready to go solo. And eh I wasn’t nervous it was just the excitement of it and you know you were concentrating on remembering all the things he told you to do and all that sort of business. I did three circuits and landings and went and picked him up and he said ‘that was good, alright son.’ Then we did eh, I don’t know whether we went back to Benellah, we stayed there, that’s right and he put me out of the aircraft and took another student and eh that was, that was. Then I went back to the normal side of the pad. The next day we done a bit further advanced flying eh cross country, and a few things like that. We were there altogether three months. Normally it would just have been two months, two months flying, but we did three months actually.
AP: What did you think of the Tiger Moth?
LL: Lovely, they were a breeze now you look back on it, in those days it was a pretty big aircraft, here you were sitting in the back seat. There were two seats, one in front, the pilot sat in front there, two little cockpits. Very basic, they had a control column it was just a stick that stuck up, a throttle which you pushed here, it was very, very basic. But we were told nobody had ever been killed in a Tiger Moth, whether that was true or not I don’t know that was, that was and it was good. I remember one day we had to do a cross country, this was sort of a bit scary I thought anyway. A mate of mine we had to go from Benellah to Ochuga [?], Ochuga [?] to Aubrey then from Aubrey back to Benellah. A mate of mine came up to me Tommy Richards he used to live at Clairbourne [?] and he said, ‘you doing this cross country this afternoon?’ I said ‘yes’. He said ‘so am I’ he said, ‘stick with me I know the road.’ He knew the way and then we flew back along the river and then down the highway you weren’t supposed to do that, you were supposed to go that way and the river might have gone down here but we had no problem. Before we left we had the whole thing planned out, had a little map on our knee and had it all. We got full marks for our navigation but it was only that Tommy had lived at eh, where did he, Clairbourne.
AP: You were talking while they were about no one had crashed a Tiger Moth. Did you encounter any accidents or high jinks or near misses or things, did you know- ?
LL: No, not while I was there, no, no. The biggest problem I reckon and they warned us about it was low flying, we used to [unclear] go down low and then we will frighten this farmer down there. There might have been electric wires going across you know. And we had hanging down the wheels, they weren’t retractable wheels on a, on a eh Tiger Moth. We did a bit of low flying everybody did but eh no I didn’t go as low as some of the blokes did you know. They used to try and be real smart and fly at ground level almost but nobody while I was there.
AP: You go from FTS, next step is a service Flying Training School?
LL: Service Flying Training School we got some leave and got a telegram to report to the RTR expenses troop and eh the smarties knew where we were going. There is always a smarty in every crowd all lined up they call and he’s here and he’s there and we are going to Sydney that means we are going overseas. ‘How do you know we are going to Sydney? That’s where the bloody train’s going.’ ‘Oh right oh we are going to Sydney’, and we went to Sydney. We went to Barfield Park and eh there they kitted us out and eh ‘Don’t think because you are here that you are going overseas, you could be going to Queensland.’ Somebody said, ‘well that’s strange what did they give us Australia badges to put on there’ and then they said, ‘you have got these Australia badges but don’t put them on until you get overseas.’ That’s in case we are going overseas, I don’t know. Well we were there about three or four weeks I think eh and we did nothing and that was pretty awful. And what they do, they were waiting for a ship eh [cough] and eventually they got us all lined up one day with the kit bags we put on a train and we went to Brisbane and put on this ship there the Metsonia and eh [cough] we sailed out down the Brisbane River and out we just got outside the harbour and looking over the side we could see a submarine. ‘Goodness me I hope it is one of ours’ or was one of the Americans ‘cause we didn’t have any submarines at the time and eh we headed, they didn’t tell us where we were going. We had a fair idea it was Canada. We went to New Zealand first and picked up some New Zealanders and then went up the west coast of South America and eh North America and landed at San Francisco. At San Francisco they put us on a train, we went to Vancouver eh got off the train there and put us on one of the Canadian Pacific Railway trains. We went to a place called Edmonton in Alberta. Eh that was quite strange because we didn’t know exactly what was going to happen from there on in. There was a big heap of us there and after three or four or five days I suppose eh we got another posting. I was posted to a place called Dauphin which was in Manitoba which didn’t mean much to me at that stage. Manitoba is actually the central province of the whole of Canada. Dauphin was about ah, suppose it would be about a hundred and fifty mile north west of Winnipeg which was the capital. Then the train went through, there was nothing in Dauphin apart from the air force base and the little village really [cough]. And so when we got there eh we found that we were going to fly Cessna Cranes which was a twin-engine, little twin-engine aircraft, lovely aircraft to fly, lovely and eh that was where eh he made the point there before in crashes in Tiger Moths. I had an Australian instructor, there were a couple of Australian Instructors on the station the rest of them were Canadians. The Canadians were lovely people. The officers were friendly, they didn’t muck around with formalities and that, it was real good. Eh this Australian instructor I had was a Sergeant Lawley, Lawla, Lawley I have got it down, there we are. He didn’t want to be an instructor he wanted to get at the overseas and he was a most unfriendly fellow, but you know I was coping with him and eh one morning we got up and he and another trainee pilot had been killed night flying. It could have been me and eh and that was about the first experience I’d had with anybody sort of eh death, you know. I was nineteen years of age and you were not used to it. Anyway they gave them a full military funeral eh which was good. Then I got a Canadian instructor and then it was real great after that it was wonderful and eh I sailed through the rest of the course. And I graduated in September ’43 as a sergeant pilot, I reckon we were pretty good.
AP: So then comes a boat across to the UK presumably.
LL: Yeah, we got a bit of liberty and went down to New York and Washington which we could ill afford and eh we went to Halifax in Nova Scotia and caught a, and got a boat to, I can’t remember the name of the ship we got to England we went to England in [loud background noise].
AP: We might just wait for a moment I think [laughs].
AP: So we were talking about a boat across to UK, you were just about to embark at Halifax.
LL: The interesting part about that trip was the ship that we went on, I think it might have been the Aquitania. It was a big ship, a lot of Americans on board [doorbell interruption; laugh].
AP: Anyway let’s get back to the boat [laugh] the Aquitania.
LL: And eh there were a lot of Americans from the mid-west not only had they not been on a ship, they never even seen the ocean. A lot of those kids, they were sick all over, oh! it was awful and what we did because we were too fast for a convoy we went on our own. But they zig-zagged all day, that way and then that way all during the daylight hours eh because it takes a certain time for a submarine to line them up to fire a torpedo at them and that’s what. That didn’t worry us but it was most unusual and when it got dark we went whoosh straight ahead. And eh we lived in pretty awful conditions, it was wartime we had hammocks and had a long table that came out from the deck, from the side of the ship and if there were six blokes at the table, three either side you had to find your accommodation so one bloke would sleep on this bench there another back there. Two blokes one would sleep on the table and the other three would be in hammocks above. That’s how, and we couldn’t have showers, we couldn’t shave properly it was pretty awful. We landed at Liverpool and eh went eh got on a train, went to Brighton. We got off the train at Brighton and there was a fellow there, he was a Wing Commander Andy Swan, he was a Scotchman in the RAAF. He had apparently been in the Black Watch for many years before the war done his time, retired, came out to Australia to live and the war started. He applied for a commission and got a commission, they sent him back to England, he was ground staff what we call a shiny bummer ISD interested in special duties. He was a wing commander and he was a dreadful man, dreadful fellow. He saw us, we had been five days on the ship, unshaven, unwashed and feeling very, very lousy and he berated us on the Brighton railway station, platform. Eh he had us smartened up within no time at all, we were going to do this and what a disgrace we were. Anyway the following morning eh, no two mornings later we had a general parade in the hall and there was the padre there, the Church of England padre a fellow called Dave Bear, you might have heard the blokes talk about Dave Bear he was a marvellous fellow he put everybody at ease you know. He said ‘there are three religions in the services, RC’s odds and sods and the other buggers’, he says ‘I am one of the other buggers, if you want anything just come and see me.’ He had a sign above his shop, his store ‘abandon rank all ye who enter here’. And that is what he was like. He used to give advice on a charge or anything like that or help you to write letters home or whatever you wanted. He was a great bloke, didn’t make any difference what you were he was just a wonderful fellow. He virtually did sort of a lot, undid a lot of the evil things this Andy Swan had done. They tell a story of the fellow who finished his tour and is on his way back home and Brighton is what they called 11 PDRC, Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre. So any Australian airmen who went into England went through Brighton and when they were going home they went through Brighton and they knew and this fellow had taken the stiffening out of his cap which we all used to do, made us look a bit racy. Swan pulled him up in the street one day and said, ‘where is the stiffening in your cap?’ ‘I lost it over fucking Berlin’ whoops and kept walking. And then after we had been there for a while I got posted. I think the first posting was to a place called Fairoaks which was just near Windsor Castle, pre-war it would have been the King’s private aerodrome. This was just a way of sort of getting us back into flying again and there we flew Tiger Moths for a while. Eh back to Brighton then went off and done a PT course and then we went off and did some more flying eventually I had been up to Scotland, I was flying up there at a place called Banff eh BANFF [spelt out] was out from Aberdeen, from Inverness, out from Inverness the Scotch people were lovely eh and eh got a posting then to eh Lichfield which was 27 Operational Training Unit. The OTU was where you formed a crew. Lichfield was an Australian OTU in that all the aircrew were Australian so we got I got an Australian crew. It was an interesting thing we had the pilots in the centre, the navigators in one corner and the wireless operators and the bomb aimers and the, and the gunners in another corner [cough]. They said, ‘alright, pilots you have got to go and pick a crew.’ It was as simple as that, I didn’t know anybody who was a navigator but a bloke came up to me, ‘you don’t look a bad sort of a bloke’, and he was a wireless op, he was a bomb aimer, a fellow named Bill Hudson and eh Bill had been a used car salesman in Sydney before the war. Eh he had all the fun in the world and he said ‘stay here’, he said, ‘I will get you a navigator, I know a bloke who is a good navigator.’ He didn’t of course, he went off and he brought back a bloke and he introduced him ‘This is Ron Harmes, so wait there,’ he said. ‘I’ll get you a couple of gunners’ so he went off and got a couple of gunners. I said to him, ‘I am supposed to be picking this crew.’ And he said ‘I got it for you skipper don’t worry about it’. Then he got a eh, he got a wireless operator so eh, here we were we had a crew and I had nothing to do with it, we turned out to be good mates, we all got on very well together. A couple of them were different they eh, but we all sort of mixed in and did our job and eh. And eh there we flew Wellingtons, they were a big, heavy lumbering aircraft they really were. They had been used as a bomber during the early stages of the war but they couldn’t carry enough bombs and eh they couldn’t carry great distances, like a lot of the British aircraft the Whitleys and those sort of aircraft, eh Hampdens, twin-engined aircraft and that eh, just hopeless and the Germans had stole the marks on them because the Germans before the war, once the Nazis got in control they said, ‘who cares about the Geneva Convention, we will build the type of aircraft we need to win a war.’ The British they didn’t, they kept, the wing span couldn’t be more than a hundred feet. That is why when they eventually got the Lancasters and the Halifaxes and wing spans more than a hundred feet they couldn’t fit in the hangers because they had built the hangers to take aircraft with wing span of less than a hundred feet. The Germans it didn’t worry them they had aircraft with wing spans greater than a hundred feet. It was a silly situation but that was the way they operated eh and eh we flew these Wellingtons for a while and we were lucky and Bill was a good bomb aimer and we got highly commended for our bombing activities at training. Then eh I don’t know how many hours we did there, it’s in the log book there, we were posted to a place called Riccall eh, which was a Heavy Conversion Unit. I had been flying Tiger Moths and Cessna Cranes, and Ansons and Oxfords and what have you, you know. Then on the Wellington then boom, four-engined aircraft, it was like eh, like riding a bike and then getting driving train or something it was just sort of an enormous thing really. There we picked up our flight engineer. There weren’t any Australian engineers so we got an Englishman he was the only Englishman in the crew, good bloke too. I don’t know how many hours we did there but that is all in the log book. Then one day they said ‘right Larmer, your crew is posted to a squadron.’ ‘Oops, yeah okay, when do we go?’ ‘This afternoon’ [laugh]. So there we were on a train and eh they met us with a truck. We thought, by this time I got commission and eh they picked us up in a truck. Another crew arrived at the same time as us, this was an English crew. It was an English squadron but this other crew was an English crew, I only had the one Englishman and I, we were the only Australian crew on 51 Squadron at the time. There had been some there before and eh, we went to the orderly room, they told us where we were billeted told me what time dinner was in the officers’ mess and all that sort of business and report to the, you are in B Flight report to B Flight Office at nine o’ clock tomorrow morning. That I did and eh the squadron leader what was his name, Lodge he had nothing doing today. He introduced me to the other blokes, other pilots that were there. The bomb aimers had reported to the bombing leader and the navs to the nav leader and what have you eh, and then he called me back and said I will get you an air test, eleven o’clock. I got the crew and we done and air test at eleven o’clock. I don’t know what the point of it was, they had just done some repairs to an aircraft. Anyway we just hung around then for a couple of days. They said if you are wanted for flying, for an operation your name will be on a list in the officers’ mess. That was up at five o’clock at night you know, a couple of, we had been there about three days, and I got the list five o’clock you know. The following crews will report to the briefing room at 0600 hours tomorrow and my name was there. I went down to the officers’ mess and they said, ‘yes we’ve seen it’, so they knew, all the crew knew. And that was it were there, ready for our first operation which was a bit strange. Nobody took any notice of you, we were just another crew there and nobody sort of put their arm on your shoulder and said ‘you will be right son.’ Just eh, you were briefed, you had a meal and boom, off you go. They said, ‘you go and get dressed, you go and do this, you go and pick up your parachute, you do this, there will be a truck will take you out to your aircraft which was at your dispersal point.’ And that was it. Then eh we did another daylight and then a couple of nights later, a couple of nights later there was a list up eh one morning that there was a briefing at two o’clock and I was flying second pilot with an experienced crew. My crew weren’t going on it, just me and this other pilot went with another crew and he was in C Flight, I was in B Flight. That was a bit strange I had nothing to do except sit next to the pilot and you saw everything that was going on, the rest of the time when you were flying you were doing something, you were busy, you didn’t have time to be worried or frightened or anything like that. I don’t think I was frightened actually on this particular night. But you could see all the anti-aircraft shells exploding all around you and what have you. We got back and we were just taxiing around to a dispersal and we heard this other aircraft calling to eh traffic control V-Victor or J-Johnnie or whatever it was. ‘V-Victor overshoot.’ They had come in a bit high and they were overshooting, the second pilot, the other bloke that had arrived the same time as me, he was still a sergeant. The bomb aimer used to sit next to the pilot on take-off and landing and eh the pilot would open the throttles but then he would have to control, take the control column. So the second dickie used to hold the, hold the throttles open, apparently this bloke didn’t . He’d opened, the pilot had opened it, got onto the thing, the throttles came back, they only got, anyway it crashed, they were all killed, eight of them it was. Nothing was mentioned at debriefing, and the next day at lunch time I said ‘did somebody, what are the funeral arrangements.’ He said ‘what?’ I said, ‘the funeral arrangements for those blokes that were killed.’ He said, ‘there is no funeral, there is a war on son.’ Stone me you know these blokes that were killed in our back yard just across the road from the end of the runway. They buried them, slight, you know quickly eh but they didn’t get any military funeral or what have you it was just ‘there is a war on son.’ And that was it.
AP: Living conditions at Snaith, how, how and where did you live?
LL: Well we were billeted away from the station, of course everybody had a bike eh we were somewhere down near the local village and [cough] just had living accommodation there and as an officer and aircrew we got eh sheets which normally you didn’t get in the air force. Eh in the mess we got, we could get fresh milk and eh before and after a raid we got a meal of bacon and eggs which were luxuries in wartime England. The rest of the time eh the billets were pretty ordinary but you know you got used to them. I could never front breakfast, on one station we were on, this was just after the war we were at Leconfield and one morning for breakfast they’d have kippered herrings and the next morning would be baked beans on toast, they were, I could cop the baked beans on toast but not the kippered herrings, they were. We used to have to wait for the NAAFI which was the restaurant or café opened about eh half past ten or something to get some breakfast [cough] but basically the living conditions were pretty crude eh but that was wartime England you know, they, they couldn’t produce their own food, it all had to be imported and there were much more important things to eh to bring in to the country. But you know we survived, we complained about it mainly because we were eh used to Australian food and Australian conditions. But basically it was pretty good.
AP: Just sort of routing of that for a bit, what were your first impressions of war time England, what did you think, presumably this was the first time you were overseas?
LL: Well eh it was quite a shock, it took a bit of getting used to. When we got there in the November eh it was eh they had two hours daylight saving. Naturally you know that was to eh, you couldn’t have a shower, in Brighton the Australian Air Force had taken over two hotels, the Grand and the Metropole eh and they were eh big, real big hotels. They had stopped the lifts working, if you were on the third floor you walked up and down to the [cough] you could have a bath but the water could only ever come to a certain level. There were all those sort of restrictions you ah you put up with really. You got used to them I suppose after a while mainly because you saw the English and eh they were, they were probably worse off than we were, you know they were on rations and we didn’t have, when we used to go on leave, they used to give us the ration to give to the people we were staying with or wherever we were staying would want ration tickets. But eh you know you couldn’t drive a car, there was no petrol available for private, well there was for doctors and things like that but basically there were all those sort of restrictions. There were blackouts and we had a pretty miserable sort of an existence we found but you got used to it after, well a couple of years I was there, just over two years, just on two years, it was you got used to these sort of things. We were pretty well received the Australians they liked us, they thought we were colonials still but I think some of them still do probably. But eh we went, we were well received on the squadron eh mainly because they didn’t know how to take us. They were eh, we didn’t salute officers, we’d salute wing commanders and above but eh you were supposed to salute squadron leaders and you were supposed to salute flight lieutenants. If you were acting as a flight commander something like that, those sort of thing you know used to rile us. We used to go out of our way [emphasis] not to and that really used to get them going. They didn’t like us at all, and they didn’t know how to discipline us really, they were frightened, and we used to tell them we were subject to RAAF control from and they had headquarters in London and they would have to go through them, but they didn’t know really [cough]. But we survived I suppose.
AP: What sort of things did you do to relax if you weren’t on operations. Where did you go on leave, even not on leave, just when not on duty?
LL: Eh, not much at all, you used to hang around. When we were on the squadron and eh you see that there was nothing going today or nothing going tomorrow day, tomorrow eh you’d go to the pub in the village or you would stay in the mess. They might have a few drinks in the mess eh but eh basically we didn’t do anything with, we didn’t play tennis or cricket or any of those sort of things. I don’t know how we kept fit but we did [laugh].
AP: What sort of things happened in the officers’ mess, what did it look like first of all? What went on there?
LL: Eh very sort of strict, you didn’t sit at this table because this was where the senior officers sat and eh you as a new bloke could sit at that table up there you know. A couple of nights after I had been there a couple of days after I had been there I sat at the wrong table and they told me you know. I couldn’t say that it made any difference where you were sitting but that was what the sort of thing. This is where the senior officers sit. Not you know, when I got on the Squadron I was a pilot officer you know I hadn’t even graduated up to flying officer eh and that sort of thing sort of got to you a bit. I, I went into the flight office one morning, used to go in there, the flight commander you know, used to give him a sort of half salute. He was pretty good Colin Lodge, Plug Lodge they used to call him and eh he was on leave. I had been having a drink in the mess with this fellow I can’t think of his name now, eh he was a flight lieutenant and I had been drinking with him in the mess having a couple of beers with him. Eh I went to the flight office the next morning, I walked in and he is sitting behind the desk and eh I said ‘hello.’ And he said ‘you haven’t saluted.’ I said ‘I don’t have to salute flight lieutenants.’ And he said ‘I am acting squadron leader.’ I said ‘well you haven’t got the bloody rank, not showing it.’ Stupid stubborn you know, he said ‘I am acting flight commander and you are supposed to salute me.’ Oh I probably was supposed to salute the acting flight commander but I, as I say I had been having a drink with him the night before. And he said ‘go outside and come in again and salute me.’ I said ‘right ho.’ I went outside and went down the mess and had a shower. He never spoke to me again, never spoke to me again. Just unbelievable you know, that was the sort of thing. Eh we had one, this Bill Hudson I was telling you about the bomb aimer, we came back from a raid one day eh and after when you came back you dumped all your gear and what have you and you go up for a debriefing and you sit around the table, the intelligence officer sits opposite eh while you are waiting to go in, other crews that are there before you there had been a bit of a hold up and eh on our squadron the padres would give you either eh you could have a cocoa, or a tea, a coffee or something like that and eh an over proof rum. Well I had only one over proof rum, it nearly blew my bloody head off that was all. On this particular day, the eh two gunners didn’t drink and the wireless operator didn’t drink so Bill had two or three over proof rums. And we get in there and he was always a bit of a yapper our Bill eh there was a very attractive WAAF intelligence officer she was a flight lieutenant or a flight officer as they call them eh and eh she spoke to me first and how did we find it over the target area and did we this and that, one thing and another you know [cough] eh and then she said to the navigator and what about, did you have any trouble with your Gee box various [unclear] so and so. And then Bill he was looking at her sort of making a play for her, he had no hope and she didn’t wake up you know. He started to tell her about over the target area. Now there was flak coming up and eh and then the fighters and then the anti, the searchlights and he was wondering how he was able to do it. He was telling her this terrible bloody story and we were just about killing ourselves laughing you know and all of a sudden she woke up. It was a daylight raid and Bill had searchlights coming into his eyes you know. She didn’t think it was funny at all, I said, ‘don’t take any notice of him you know, just write down that we dropped our bombs and we got good photos of the target we reckon and so and so’. No. She wanted to put him on a charge eh for misleading and all that sort of business. Anyway I, I talked to her for some considerable time to try and break her down and I thought I had got, anyway I got to the flight office the next morning and the eh Squadron Leader Lodge said ‘what was this with your bomb aimer last night?’ [emphasis] I said, ‘oh no.’ she had reported it, he she demanded he put him on a charge. I had great difficulty restraining him from putting Bill on a charge and eh that gave us a much worse reputation than we deserved, you know. We were a good crew and we were doing a good job but eh just Bill had, had two over proof rums gone to his ruddy head. I will tell you one story it didn’t happen on our squadron eh but we heard about it in York or one of the local pubs or something. Eh after briefing and the mail all that sort of business, and you got out of the aircraft and had about quarter of an hour, twenty minutes and waited around, you put your stuff in the aircraft and the blokes would have a smoke, had a smoke. Just stand around and sort of relax waiting for time as I say, better get ready and so I can get out there, you know what time you had to take off. This wireless operator went up and eh and he said eh to the pilot, ‘I am not going skip.’ He said, ‘what do you mean you are not going?’ He said ‘I am not going’ he said. ‘You’ve got to go.’ He said, ‘I am not going.’ ‘Why?’ ‘I am not going.’ That’s all he said, so they sent for the flight commander and the flight commander sent one of the ground staff blokes off on a bike to get the -. He arrived out in his car and ‘you’ve got to go.’ ‘I’m not going.’ And that’s all he said, he wouldn’t give him any explanation or reason or anything you know, ‘I am just not going.’ Eh so they said, ‘you will be charged with desertion.’ ‘I am not going’, he said. They charged him with desertion, they locked him up eh they got a relief wireless operator and they were shot down and all killed. Eh he was court martialled and he got ten years in a military prison. I understand that he got out eh shortly after the war finished and they gave them an amnesty those blokes [cough]. But apparently from what I heard, what I subsequently found out later on eh that was all he ever said, ‘I am not going.’ He didn’t tell them why or, or that he wasn’t. He’d been, it wasn’t his first flight, he’d been before, eh two or three times before eh he just said he wasn’t going. Now I don’t know if he had a premonition or what but eh he survived and the other blokes didn’t and that was it. There is not much more I can tell you Adam, I think.
AP: There is one other thing, well there is two questions in particular that I have for you but one I have find out is, on your wings here is a little Guinness pin.
LL: [laugh]
AP: I am guessing there is a story behind that.
LL: On one leave we went to, went to Ireland eh and eh and one day there was a tour of the Guinness Brewery in Dublin. We had to go over in civvies but they knew we were airmen because we had our air force trousers and open neck shirt, blue shirt and sports coat which the army, air force store had provided for us. That was the only way we could get into, get into eh Southern Ireland because it was a neutral country. Eh this fellow said ‘you want to, give you this you know, Guinness badge, it will bring you luck, wear it for luck.’ I used to wear it on my battle dress, I just pinned it onto the eh onto the wing after I got rid of the battle dress at the end of the war, that was all.
AP: Been there ever since.
LL: [laugh]
AP: Okay there is another question that I want to ask as well. Was there any superstitions or [? voodoos] on 51 Squadron, rituals that people would do that you were aware of, for luck I suppose?
LL: No one thing they did eh they did, we had to do thirty flights, thirty trips for a, for a, for a tour eh and anybody that was doing their thirtieth trip, you knew but you would never say to the bloke ‘is this your last trip?’ I said it to one bloke ‘is this your last trip?’ [emphasis] He very near hit me. That was a very bad sign, no I don’t think there was, don’t think there was anything like that eh, not that I can recall, no.
AP: Okay. Final question and probably the most important em, how in your view is Bomber Command remembered, what sort of legacy?
LL: We fellows in Bomber Command eh [pause] during the war you didn’t sort of think much about how good you were and all that sort of business but when you saw the figures at the end of the war of the casualties and eh this is a classic example. The casualties there, just the Australian casualties that is eh when you saw you realised they had a loss rate of something round about forty per cent. It was a bit higher for the English, forty two or three per cent you know it was pretty awful and eh Harris was treated very shabbily by the British Government at the end of the war. Harris apparently, not apparently actually he was a brilliant organiser absolutely brilliant but apparently he was a dreadful bastard he used to argue eh and he would refuse. They would tell him a target say on Monday, they would have to get a couple of days in advance obviously to plan up and how many aircraft they would need, which way they would go and all that sort of business. Eh and he would tell them he wouldn’t go, that ‘we are not going to that place.’ You know. Just refused to, he would argue with Churchill, he would argue with the Air Board, he would argue with the Air Ministry eh he was one of those sort of fellows but he was always right. They wouldn’t admit it of course but eh ‘we are not going there, you want us to go there because this suits you after the war you know, so we are not going there, but we will go there.’ They said ‘no we don’t want to go there till next week.’ ‘Well we are going this week.’ You know, and he would plan it and that would be a very successful raid and it would have done the job you know eh. And at the end of the war all the chiefs of all the commands like Fighter Command, Coastal Command and Training Command were all made Marshals of the Royal Air Force, Harris wasn’t they left his as an air chief marshal. He resigned his commission immediately got on an aeroplane and went, took his wife and daughter to South America, to eh South Africa eh I don’t know whether he ever went back. Somebody told me once that he thought years afterwards that they eh had relented and made him a marshal of the Royal Air Force. I am not sure about that I never heard anything about that. Eh and eh that without any publicity the fact that these three blokes got, or four blokes got air, or marshals of the Royal Air Force which was equivalent of a field marshal eh and Harris didn’t. We all felt a bit, ‘is that what they think of us, is that really?’ We had the idea that we won the war, Harris gave us this impression. We are doing this as opposed to the American Eighth Air Force eh, and they were sort of a bit at loggerheads, they didn’t do any daylight, eh night time flights they only did daylights the eh Americans and we did daylights and nights you know, whatever it didn’t make any difference. We went out over the North Sea and fly for hours over the North Sea without any landmarks eh to check your position eh. We reckoned that Bomber Command had done an enormous job and they had, there was no two ways about it eh and a lot of us sort of felt well, the bulk of Bomber Command felt let down, eh really. Fighter Command got a lot of publicity early in the war Churchill went on with this ‘never was so much owed by so much, many to so few’. Eh but their work finished in September ’41. And they didn’t really do anything further until eh the invasion. They went over with, a bit of protective force for the invasion forces but basically they didn’t do anything. Eh we never had any fighter escort, never, the Americans had fighter escorts they used to take them over there and then meet them on the way back but we never had any. So as far as Fighter Command was concerned they did nothing [emphasis] for three years during the war. Bomber Command flew in operational flights from the day the war started or the day after the war started until the day after the war finished, really. So that was a bit of a let-down, really. And then eh persevered it took seventy odd, sixty, seventy years before we got a little clasp that said Bomber Command, the Bomber Command Association like the old boys of Bomber Command like their association in England, they tried for years to eh get some recognition and they eh tried to get us awarded the eh congress, eh the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal, CGM, eh they eventually knocked it back completely to ‘no’, said logistically couldn’t be done and all this sort of business and they went on and had a million reasons for it. And then they said well eh ‘we’ve got these ribbons.’ But no what does that show eh I’ve got a ribbon France, Germany Star which shows that I was in operations, but doesn’t show that I was in Bomber Command. So they said ‘we will give you a Bomber Command [doorbell interruption]. That’s typical.
LL: I rang our honours and awards section in Canberra week after week after week and I’ve given up. ‘Well’ they said, ‘your application is on hold.’ And I said, ‘why would it be on hold?’ ‘I don’t know why Mr Larmer but it is on hold.’ I said, ‘well get it bloody off hold.’ Eventually she then came back a couple of days later, ‘no, no it’s ok.’ I said ‘there couldn’t have been any bloody doubt about it, you know. You have got the exact figures and you have a copy of my log book’ and all that sort of business. ‘We are sorry about that Mr Larmer.’ ‘Now’, I said, ‘now how long is it going to take?’ ‘Oh it shouldn’t be very long now.’ Anyway eh I’d been waiting, oh, from the time I applied it was seventeen months and a mate of mine said, ‘why don’t you get onto John Find?’ I said, ‘no, no John Find couldn’t do anything.’ Anyway the next thing I know I get a ring from John Find’s producer. And eh I said ‘who told you?’ ‘Mr Bill Burke a friend of mine’. I said ‘Oh no, I said I told him I wasn’t, didn’t want to.’ And she said, ‘John would like to speak to you about it.’ Anyway he spoke to me and he sort of eh said, ‘are you serious, you know you have been waiting seventeen months?’ and I said, ‘yeah’ I said, ‘it doesn’t have to be fairly long, because I am ninety years of age, if it don’t get it soon it doesn’t matter.’ And he said, ‘no we’ll get it.’ And eh anyway he rang me back the next day, she rang me back the next day she said ‘John wants to speak to you again.’ He said ‘I have been speaking to the assistant minister eh, and eh he said within six weeks.’ And I said ‘ I don’t know what you drink in that place, but if you believe him, you know.’ I said ‘they won’t have it in six weeks.’ Two weeks later I got it, we got it you know. He rang me and said ‘Oh Mr Larmer your clasp for your Bomber Command clasp is coming through, you know it will be sent it down to you in the next week.’ Two weeks it took and I spoke to John Find afterwards to thank him and I said ‘I, I can’t understand it you know’. He said ‘Laurie they are frightened of us, we can give them bad publicity’, he said, ‘they don’t want any.’ He said, ‘we could have made them look very foolish.’ He said ‘and that is what we were prepared to do’, he said, ‘and they know it’, he said, ‘it is an awful way to exist.’ He said, ‘you couldn’t embarrass them but we could.’ Isn’t that terrible really and that was the thing. I wasn’t so much the fault of the people here in Australia, the people in England hadn’t done anything about it. It took an assistant minister here to get onto somebody in England to get them. They only had to put a fifty or sixty or a hundred of them in a box you know, it wouldn’t be as big as that, to get them out here and that’s what happened. So you know that’s what happened. Overall eh we reckon that Bomber Command and probably we are a bit unreasonable but I reckon we got a bit of a, you know rough end of the pineapple. Because eh towards the end of the war all the operations in the last two years of the war all the operations with Bomber Command all the news on the, on the BBC was six hundred of their aircraft went to Nuremburg last night, ten of our aircraft are missing. That was another thing, ten of our aircraft, but it was seventy men. Even meant you know you go on a raid and say three out of their aircraft went to Dortmund and they did bomb the railway yards and whatever they might have done you know. Five of their aircraft are missing that was thirty five men and that, that sort of eh took a bit of getting used to. Eh I could see their point from a psychological point of view everything was done to protect the morale, or build up the morale of the British people eh but eh it gave you the impression that aeroplanes were more important than blokes [ironic laugh] probably in war time they had plenty of blokes but were short of aircraft you know. There you are, alright you have heard all of that?
AP: I think we have heard all of that. Thank you very much it has been a pleasure for the last couple of hours.
LL: [laugh]
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ALarmerLO151112
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Interview with Lawrence Larmer
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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eng
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01:09:51 audio recording
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Adam Purcell
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2015-11-12
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Lawrence Larmer was born in Australia in 1920. After completing school he went to work on the Beaufort aircraft in the Department of Aircraft Production. He was called up in 1942 and volunteered for the Royal Australian Air Force to avoid the army. His initial training on Tiger Moth aircraft was followed by further training in Manitoba, Canada. He graduated as a sergeant pilot in 1943 and was posted to Great Britain. He describes conditions at 11 Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre, Brighton. At 27 Operational Training Unit, RAF Lichfield, he crewed up before posting to 1658 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Riccall. His first operational posting was to 51 Squadron at RAF Snaith. Lawrence Larmer discusses in detail the process of crewing up, of relations between personnel on the station, officers’ living conditions, and a case of desertion. He also discusses his views on Sir Arthur Harris and recounts his experience of applying for the Bomber Command clasp.
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Mal Prissick
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
1942
1943
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Australia
Canada
Great Britain
England--Brighton
England--Staffordshire
England--Yorkshire
Manitoba
United States
England--Sussex
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Pending review
1658 HCU
27 OTU
51 Squadron
aircrew
bomb aimer
bombing
coping mechanism
crewing up
debriefing
Halifax
Harris, Arthur Travers (1892-1984)
Heavy Conversion Unit
mess
military discipline
military living conditions
Operational Training Unit
pilot
RAF Lichfield
RAF Riccall
RAF Snaith
superstition
Tiger Moth
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/270/3422/AHeatonSM160322.1.mp3
faf7544445c20c5d8a834bb67cdbf1ae
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Title
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Heaton, Stuart Michael
Stuart Michael Heaton
Stuart M Heaton
Stuart Heaton
S M Heaton
S Heaton
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Stuart Michael Heaton (b. 1925, 1818543 and 164742 Royal Air Force).
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-22
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Heaton, SM
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AS. This is Andrew Sadler interviewing Michael Heaton at his home in Swiss Cottage London em on the 22nd of March 2016 on behalf of the Bomber Command Archive. Michael thank you very much for allowing you to interview em you, em can I start by asking you where an when you were born?
MH. Yes I was born in Worcester on the 29th of May 1924.
AS. Right and em what, did you have parents involved in the First World War?
MH. No but my parents were living at that time of course but my father was not involved, he was in a reserved occupation.
AS. Oh what, what, what was his occupation?
MH. Em it was em ha, I should know it, it was with a factory in Rugby eh where in fact he met my mother. Em I am just trying to recall the name of the factory but they were making some parts for machines, I just can’t recall the details.
AS. So how did you em, how did you come to be, to join the Royal Air Force?
MH. Of course ah eh I was fifteen when the war started, there was plenty going on very quickly. And eh there was a film I remember, a Holywood film, I can’t remember what the details were but it dealt with eh the crew of a bomber. And eh somehow that had an impact with me and I thought, ‘that is exactly what I want to do when the time comes when I am old enough.’ There was a preparity, prepartity for joining up, for volunteering and I joined the ATC, the Air Training Corps eh which was of immense benefit to me learning about discipline and eh the navigation.
AS. At what age did you join that?
MH. Eh, I was sixteen or seventeen.
AS. And were you at school then?
MH. No eh I was working in a bank in a place called Ledbury in Herefordshire and eh this bank, I was eh educated at Ledbury Grammar School eh which I joined in 1933 and left in eh 1940. And eh the grammar school was also the headquarters for the Air Training Corps. And the two or three years that I was with the Air Training Corps were a tremendous benefit to me both in ways of learning about discipline but more importantly about navigation. And eh when the time came that eh I was eh summoned to Birmingham before eh, before a selection, aircrew selection eh I was already eh quite knowledgeable about em eh navigation and so when I was asked, what would you like to be. That category I told them, to be a navigator. Most boys would go in for to be a pilot only probably to be disappointed because that was overstaffed and eh so I was summoned when I was eighteen to Birmingham for this eh aircrew selection and were there for about two days actually. And at the end of it when I came before the em selectors eh they said to me ‘would you like to join immediately or wait for eight or nine months when you would be sort of called up.’ So I said ‘I would have no hesitation whatsoever I would like to join immediately.’ Went home back to Leadbury, met by my parents in a weeks time I was in the Air Force, that’s how it started.
AS. Where did you do your training?
MH. Well my training which was very long indeed, over about two years. Training a navigator was the longest course of the aircrew officers. So we had to report here in London, St Johns Wood, ACRC, Aircrew Receiving Centre known as “arsey tarsey”or the [unclear] eh and so I reported there at eh [cough] a place just opposite the zoo, London Zoo.And then we were on the go all the time, either peeling potatoes, scrubbing the floors, going to lectures, swimming various things em for about six weeks as far as I can remember. From there we went to our first posting eh on the way to Scarborough on the Flying Scotsman I remember which of course has now come back. And eh that was to the ITW. That was an important first course em all em aircrew went there before they went their different ways. I found it was absolutely no trouble at all because I knew everything they told me through my time in the ATC. So it was immensely helpful in that respect. And the course was about six weeks I can’t quite remember. So do you want me to go on about the training?
AS. Yes.
MH. So having finished that and passed the course we then went to a transit cam, place in Ludlow where we were living in tents out of doors waiting eh for our time to board a ship which would take us to Canada. That was a tiresome place, I found it tiresome anyhow, food was awful etc. From there we went on to Manchester to Heaton Park [unclear] eh and waited there for our time to board the em the Queen Elizabeth. That was a troop ship at that time carrying a huge number of people em to New York. I don’t know how many, there was talk of forty or fifty thousand certainly on, on board the ship you could hardly move. Eh the beds were in layers all the way up with an electric light all the way up. My misfortune was to have one right at the top. Eh I didn’t enjoy the voyage at all, of course there were, there were, there were nothing accompanying us, the ship was very fast. But one thought did think about eh German submarines which were quite active at that time.However, passed without any problems as far as that was concerned. But I felt ill all the time, didn’t know what it was, thought it was sea sickness but it turned out to be em, it turned out to be eh. What is the name of that stuff when you go yellow?
AS. Jaundice.
MH. Jaundice, exactly, jaundice, anyhow I was forced to look at the Statue of Liberty as we sailed into New York. We were treated there with an enormous amount of kindness by the American people. Got bananas which we never heard of course they were not available in this country during the war. Eh I gave the [unclear] so on and so forth and, and from there we boarded a train to take us up to Canada to a place called Monkton on the East Coast which was a sort of receiving station in Canada. Eh and we and I reported sick, that’s when I knew I had jaundice so I went straight to hospital and eh I was there for about ten days or so and eh was then released. So and then from, from that eh receiving centre we were put, we were, we were able to choose actually which place in Canada where we were able to go to. I had met some friends by then and we had wanted to all be together.So most of us managed that and that was in London Ontario. The other place was eh a place near Winnepeg eh, much further eh to the West. So this was a very important eh, eh place to be and high standards were demanded eh and eh threats were made if you don’t do this and don’t pass this you will be off the course and sent home. Eh included amongst that penalty would be air sickness. I was afraid about that because I suffer from motion sickness as a boy and I didn’t tell anybody about it. In fact I found when we got in the air we were so busy I didn’t have time to think about it.So em that was a great relief for me. Anyway this course, the Observers Training Course lasted about four months, about four or five months. And em it consisted of eh well it was like being going back to school really except that the subjects were different. We all lived together in a big sort of Nissan type of a building and time em was divided between em flying or going to this em school. They took em we were er, we were very ,extremely well looked after. I am just looking back, we had absolutely, no, hardly any time for ourselvses. Apart from navigation there were other subjects, meteorology, morse code, armaments to name a few about seven or eight differnent subjects to learn about which we would be examined. And eh it was necessary to get em certain proficiency in them in order to be, to get our brevet.That was, that was available in the end if we passed everything. So there was a certain amount of tension going on, it was very competitive there about eh about eh twenty five or thirty in the class I suppose, eight class, eighty nine A, I remember. The pilots were eh were em not of the Air Force and eh Avro Ansons were the, were the aircraft which was used. We went either as first navigator, we took it in turns as first navigator or second navigator. Got used was getting used to eh preparing a log, doing various tests on eh on board and eh hoping to reach our target at the right time. That was extremely important to do that and hopefully not get lost. I do remember getting lost at night em I had no idea where I was, there were no pin points I could see. Em but the pilot informed me we were near Chicago [laugh]. So many miles off course it was absolutely hopeless. So I thought ‘oh I am not going to pass.’ Anyhow eh it so happened that the commander, the wing commander from time to time flew with eh, with us one by one. And I was very fortunate to have wing commander, I have forgotten his name an extremely nice man. And eh when we were given a target and an ETA you had to arrive exactly at the right time. You got no help with the navigation at all you had to do it yourself. Navigation mainly was by way of pinpoints in order to ascertain the wind eh direction and velocity. That was extremely important to get that right, if you got that wrong you would never get there at the right time or in fact never get there. I so happened on this particular day, it was a fine day, cold, we were in the month of November eh cold but eh very bright and we reached the eh, eh the target exactly on the eta. I do remember the wing commander looking at me and giving me a thumbs up and I thought ‘that was really very lucky that I got there.’ Em do you know the time, I am interested in music eh and eh I play the piano a bit and eh for the Sunday Services. Eh I played well a sort of, more like a harmonium, I think if I remember it and that helped me a little I think. Eh ‘cause I got to know the padre who invited me out to meet his wife and what not. And eh probably the eh wing commander would attend church service so. I was pointed out in some respects which was only a small thing but looking back I think it was quite helpful for me. Anyhow just jumping ahead we did have some time over Christmas, went to Toronto, me some people there, were taken around and enjoyed ourselves. Eh and we were beginning then to think about the end of the course which would probably be around February or March. Eh and at the end of the course that was when the commissions were put out, were granted rather eh and eh, eh there was a big celebration of it. Anyhow, I thought and won’t, remember writing home to my parents, don’t expect me to get a commission it is absolutely hopeless. ‘cause I had been, I hadn’t been so fortunate with my eh flying eh navigation, made several foolish mistakes. Em ground navigation seemed, seemed to be going eh fairly well but I was quite sure that I wouldn’t be selected for a commission. So we came to the end of, the end of the course, I am jumping ahead quite a bit now. Came to the end of the course and we were on parade and our names were called out, mine being one of them and told to stand apart. I thought ‘oh my goodness is this going to be some more trouble?’ One thought and another. But it turned out we were being selected for, for a commission. So I could hardly believe it eh, when, when I heard that was the case. I was the youngest in the class so I thought that was against me to. It was a matter of astonishment for me for this to have happened. We were then left to go to our own devices and send telegrams off to our parents if we wanted to do that and generally jump about and make a noise sort of thing. Eh the award eh we could invite our friends to a big celebration eh where we would be awarded our wings our brevet eh.The band playing and so on. So our friends from Toronto came down I remember and friends we made in London came as well and also it was a very joyful occasion. Then we had leave for em ten days or fourteen days. We went down three of us to New York and had a good time before going back to Monkton in Canada to get ready for the ship to take us back to England. The ship then was the Isle de France and we made eh, we made it safely back to England glad to say. And em we were, had a week leave with our parents when we went home and in our officers uniform. Feeling extremely proud of myself [laugh] and eh and my parents were quite pleased about it I think. From then on eh [cough] eh we to an advanced navigational,advanced navigational course. In a place near Cheltenham I think or Gloucester. Em, it didn’t last very long. And just to get used to navigating over England which is a very different situation from navigating over em Canada.England being far more difficult to navigate. Em then from that place we had an important move eh to eh an aerodrome in Oxfordshire who’s name just escapes me for the moment but that was to crew up. This was a very vital eh matter, it happened eh that eh, it started of in the Officers Mess and it was for, which consisted of eh all, all the groups. Pilots, flight engineer, navigator, wireless operator, gunners and eh, for the, for the captain who was the pilot to select. Well; we were there all in a rather nervous state rather like getting married. Eh waiting for a pilot to come and ask you whither em you would like to be part of his crew. Well I saw a eh fellow and I thought he looks quite a safe type. Pilot officer, he was an extremely important person of the crew because your life depended on him. And eh it just so happened that he came to me and said, eh, he was rather nervous as I was and said eh ‘would you like to be part of my crew?’ Eh so I said ‘yes I would.’ So he said ‘well have a cigarette.’ Since I was a non smoker I didn’t quite know what to do about it. Anyway I thought it was rather unmanly not to have one, so I had the cigarette and was huffing and puffing, didn’t like it very much. Anyhow from that point we both went to a Sergeants Mess in order to fill up the remaining ones. That was again the wireless operator,eh flight engineer, the bomb aimer and the two gunners. The rear gunner and the mid upper gunner, crew of seven which all Lancasters had. Well that took a little bit of time and eh Harold who was my pilot and I, he was very nice. He always used to say to me ‘what do you think about so and so, do you think he would fit in?’ That sort of and our crew came together and we stayed together for the whole of the rest of the time. Of the all the missions were done with the same crew. So having, having got crew that was extremely important we were then going to train on Wellingtons which was a very different matter from being on Ansons. And eh so we had to get used to that and it was at that point to that I first came in contact with radar navigation. At that point, at that time rather eh it was extremely secret and eh, eh we were told without any shadow of a doubt eh terrible things awaited us if we found to be talking about it or in any way discussing it outside of our class. The main, the main radar at that time was GEE, G, double E. Which was a marvellous way of ascertaining where you were. The course lasted, so whilst navigator were learning about this the rest of the crew were in eh, circuits and bumps that’s a very up and down in the Wellington. For a pilot really to get used to a Welling, to a Wellington machine. So I didn’t do very much travelling on the Wellington at that time which I was quite glad ‘cause the circuits and bumps really made me quite, quite nauseous. No sooner were we up but it was time to come down, didn’t like it at all. So I was much happier learning about radar navigation. Em I am skipping ahead, I have forgotten the amount of time we were learning about eh, eh radar. The next station, then we went to was somewhere near eh Leicester, I think was it, I can’t remember. Eh and we were then on Stirlings again it was necessary for the pilot to get use on this big, huge, sprawling eh machine. Eh from navigation course eh we were going on a long trip at night and in the day time, sometimes as far as Cornwall. Sometimes up, eh tried to get eh used to, eh this is for particularly the navigator to get used to eh to using the Gee radar but never forgetting the DR. Eh direct navigation which we had learnt about eh in Canada. We were marked on the logs that we presented eh and from there we went onto another course on Lancasters. A Lancaster Finishing Course again for the pilot to get used to em driving a Lancaster. By this time we, we were, because the next station was a squadron. So we were all anxious of course to get on the squadron and ah we had to pass various tests to do that. Navigation, from the navigation point of view we were marked quite severely on the proficiency, how,we had our logs were examined very carefully. Anyhow all of this was very time consuming of course. We hardly had time to do anything else and eventually from there we were posted to a squadron. This of course was the object of joining the RAF. By this time almost two years had passed with all the various courses as far as I was concerned. The gunners course was much shorter and the other ones to were much shorter. Eh and the squadron was number 50 Squadron which was stationed at Skellingthorpe outside Lincoln, about three miles outside Lincoln and there we stayed until the end of the war. So our training then had finished and I had come to the point when were, it’ the real thing. ‘So should I stop there?’
AS. You started at Skellingthorpe in the squadron can you tell me about, about the missions that you went on, what it was like and what the living accommodation was like?
MH. What the accommodation? Yes, ok so I was an officer a pilot officer eh Howard my em, the pilot was a flight lieutenant. I forgot to mention, he had been a trainer in Canada. Eh and so we went about together a lot eh. We, we had a very cosy sort of a place we were lucky eh the main, we weren’t in with a whole lot of other people, we had a room to ourselves. With a fire lit I remember, it was almost, I shouldn’t say, it was almost like home. We had batmen to look after us or bat women to look after us em [cough] ‘excuse me.’ We being officers of course we had our own mess eh the non commissioned officers the NCOs they had their own mess as well of course. There was a division on the crew with Harold and myself being the only two officers and the rest of the crew being NCOs. But once in the air that didn’t have the slightest difference at all and we were all the same in the air. And em we would go about together too. If we were going into Lincoln for a drink or a night out sort of thing then of course we would go together with the rest of the crew. But on the station we were officers and they were NCOs, there was that difference. And eh the food, the food was very good really eh I don’t, I don’t remember complaining at all about it. We were waited on in the Mess. And em there were frollocks and people getting drunk of course at nights and doing ridiculous things. I suppose that is young men sort of playing the fool and all the rest of it and eh the spirit was “you may as well make hay while you are at work, whilst you have the chance, you might not be here tomorrow.” That, that was not a matter which was eh, dealt, dealt upon, I think it was, we think it was in everybody’s mind.Because one did see empty places in some of the accommodation places when crews had not returned. But I don’t think it was, well for myself eh it wasn’t a matter I dwelt upon. Eh It’s, it’s, it’s difficult, it’s a difficult subject you. Before you went on a raid eh you had to divest yourself of anything that might give your name or any information and put that in a locker. You did wonder, or at least I wondered, ‘I hope I see that again.’ [laugh] because one couldn’t tell. Anyhow we had to have our first operation and this was of course a cause of great excitement for us all and nervousness as well to. The target was Gdynia a port on the Baltic a long way away, long way away for a first, for a first trip. Eh it was at night time eh and eh so we knew we were on a raid that particular night because we were told to report to the briefing room at a certain time, I don’t know what the time was. Probably most of them were late afternoon or early evening for take of. Eh on reaching the briefing room with a whole lot of other crews, the briefing room consisted of all crews sitting round a table in a hap hazard sort of way. Waiting for the commander to come in to tell us what was going to happen. Eh I had all my navigational equipment with me of course, charts, various instruments and all the rest of it in a big bag. And eh we all sat together as a crew and , waited for him to come. Now the, the commander was a man called Wing Commander Jimmie Flint, F,L,I,N,T and he was a well known and,person and continued to be very well known after the war and he lived to be a hundred actually and died only fairly recently within the last couple of years anyhow. He was a man, he was known as “Twitcher Flint,” “Twitcher Flint” a big moustache and eh he would come over and say ‘Well chaps eh, eh you target for tonight.’ Whatever it was, if that target was a long way away a great groan would go up. Eh because it was going to be more difficult and last longer of course. Anyhow this was our first target and eh he would then, various people would come on to give us the directions about the eh course to go there.The track and the course to get to the target and what time it was necessary to get there bye. This, this happened on every target that I was on.So we had to listen. The met, eh meteorological man would come on and eh give his idea what the weather would be. Above all what the winds might be. Of course this was very difficult because nobody was over in Germany to give this information. So we used to regard the wind eh direction and velocity which was given to us as a bit spurious. But anyhow we didn’t have any alternative. So the various, various other people would come sometime to wish us well and then eh it was time to depart for the plane. Now eh the navigator had a lot of work to do at this particular point. He had to plan eh the course and eh get his log ready recording various information. So he was left behind in the briefing room while the rest of the crew went off to the plane. This was always a sort of nervous part I felt. Eh anyhow we had to get this done within a certain time, obviously because we had been given a, we had been given a time for take off and there was quite a lot of work to be done by everybody to do for that time. So after we, the navigators which had remained behind finished their, got all their charts recorded and ready, we went of in the transport. Hardly saying anything to anybody I remember. Sometimes you were the last to be dropped of at your plane and I found out, a very lonely position I must say. Eh dropped of outside the plane, by the time I got there they were revving up, the ground crew were all out.A lot of activity going on the ground eh waiting for me to,to eh get on the plane. I was the last man to get on, I got on, got on the plane over that great hump in the middle of the plane to the navigators cabin. Saying hello to the crew, effectively the wireless operator eh the partition between the navigators cabin and the pilots and the flight engineer and the bomb aimer in front, in front. Almost as soon as I got in eh the pilot wanted, we were all on intercom of course to make sure that was all right and wanted to get going. So I really had to rush pinning down on the chart, getting ready for eh take off. I don’t know how much detail you would like me to go into. Eh for take off we weren’t allowed, the wireless operator and I to sit at our places eh ‘cause in case there was an accident we, we get the worst of it. So we had to go down and squat down between the partition, between the navigators cabin and where the pilot sat, in a squatting position eh until we were airbourne.That happened all the time. There were were always various switches I seem to remember that had to be switched, I really can’t remember the details now but they had to be recorded on my, on my log. As soon as we were airbourne I would be back at the navigators cabin and I was then kept busy all the time until we reached the target. Eh first of all taking off if it, if it was in,in winter of course, darkness came early. But if I could get a pin point or something, well I had Gee of course, I could get some, some eh, eh pin points to put on my chart to ascertain what the wind velocity and direction was which would be helpful to me. As soon as we got near the European coast then the radar was of no use at all because it was jammed by the Germans.They would give you false information which would be disastrous so radar was wonderful up to the, up to the coast but then you couldn’t use it. It was also useful coming back as well. Anyhow from then on it was a matter of eh various legs, legs on the chart which we had given to at the briefing. Eh with order to reach the target, we didn’t go straight there of course, we might go through four, five, six, seven or eight different legs in order to get there. On this particular bombing commission to Gdynia I remember we had to go to Sweden first by various means. Eh, which of course which we shouldn’t have done to get to Sweden and Sweden at that point in Sweden the, the target was, was directly Sotheby. So that is what happened and by that or whatever eh we arrived fairly well on time, I am glad to say which was a huge relief to me. Eh and eh the bombing at the, as soon as we got near, near the target the bomb aimer would then take over the navigation.And he would guide the plane, starboard skipper, port skipper to the actual bombing point and it was up to him then of course to eh, bomb the target. Gdynia was a, was port on the, on the Baltic and as soon as the bombs were dropped everything on the aircraft went up, ourselves included because of the release of the weight of the bombs of course. So I wasn’t used to this, all my navigational instruments went flying everywhere, all over the floor. I should explain that there was a very dark,black heavy curtain eh which joined the eh, em partion between the navigators cabin and, and where the eh pilot sat eh and eh ‘cause I had to have the light on obviously. So I learned a lesson from that to put all the navigational instruments in a bag as soon as we got near the target otherwise you would never find them again. So em quickly to eh give a direction to the pilot making quite sure we were going Westwards and not Eastwards em for the first leg home. There were all the time directions to be given by the navigator to the pilot, eh ‘skipper eh course number,’ Whatever, whatever degree what we,he needed. He eh and I would have eh em a compass inside the navigators so I could tell if he was keeping to that course. That was very important because if comp, if the pilot strayed from the course that was given to him, that seriously affected if we would hit the target. So I would, I would say to him ‘Skipper you are two degrees off.’ Now that irritated the pilot very much indeed once we got back on the ground. Not in the air. He would say to me ‘how do you expect me to keep this course all the time? you don’t realise what a heavy job it is piloting, keeping the course.’ So I said ‘What you don’t realise if we don’t keep the course we won’t hit the target.’ So it was something that happened all the time. But it really was, it really was important that, to do, that he would keep the course. I know it was hard for him and I couldn’t resist it once or twice.[laugh] Well there was the matter of getting home and very important at this point to make sure you were going West and not East for obvious reasons.Then it was the matter of getting back home safely again it wasn’t a direct matter. Eh various legs and all the rest of it and once we got over the, to the North Sea we could use Gee then and home in on Gee and eh and arrive safely. Eh,I just, just mentioned eh I was never very much, my thoughts didn’t go to if we would get shot down and or anything like that. My great fear and it really was a fear, this thing I had dreams about is if we would get lost in the darkness. It was winter time em, very often ten, tenths cloud you couldn’t see anything eh couldn’t you couldn’t have any pin points to [unclear] there was nothing to help you. You had to go on D, direct navigation and, and, and go on what you thought was the right way. All to often we would be flying to a target and the gunners would say ‘oh everybody’s going off to the starboard.’ You think ‘I am not going to the starboard.’ But it caused a certain amount of fear. If you didn’t get to the target on, well if you got to the target on time that was fine, that is what should happen. But it was very, very difficult, only,only a few minutes in a few minutes it was very difficult to do that a long way from home with very little navigational help. Astral navigation was of no good whatsoever because it was too long winded. And the aircraft anyhow getting the bubble and the sextant with the plane jumping up and down.It was virtually impossible and you would probably get a bad reading anyhow.Although we did use it when we were training in Canada as a last resort. But my main fear was getting lost or getting to the target too early in which case you would circle the target which was very dangerous. Or get it too late when the fighters would be up for obvious reasons. And also on, on these raids remembering there were five hundred, seven hundred even a thousand aircraft all bombing at different heights at different times and the, and the chances of, chances of aircraft crashing into each other. That is what was on my mind more that anything else. Also I thought if we got lost, the shame of it all, I would be blamed and eh this worried me intensely I must say.Much more than any sense of danger. Of course it was wonderful getting home and to think we got home safely, we bombed the target and a feeling of exhilaration. The first, as soon as we got of the plane we were welcomed by the ground crew which was always nice. Oh I should have mentioned when we were taking off it was quite customary for the CO to come and see us of, the dentist would see us of, the padre would see us of. Everyone would be waving at us so it was quite nice. Anyhow as soon as we got down the first point to go to was the intelligence and there we were eh quizzed about eh what had happened in the raid. And did we see [unclear] my log was particularly eh necessary.Because we had to make a note of if we saw any planes going down or anything out of the way which had occurred to us had to be marked in our log. So all that information was delivered to em, to them. For the men it was up to the mess for bacon and eggs which was a great treat because eggs we only eat once a week eh and then eh back to our billets. And then next day fine we were on the next night, so I will stop there.
AS. What year was it that you did your first ?
MH. 1944.
AS. 1944 so how many did you do all together?
MH. I’m sorry.
AS. How many sorties did you do all together?
MH. Twenty two we wanted to do thirty because that was the tour. A tour consisted of thirty and we really wanted to do thirty but the war ended to our disappointment.[laugh].
AS. When you were in Skellingthorpe, how much time did you get, did you do, do sorties every, every night or did you have time to rest or were you just waiting for the weather to be right?
MH. Well eh we flew, we flew when we were told to. Eh we obeyed exactly what we were told to do. Yes exactly we had time of. Time of we’d go, we’d go into Lincoln to that pub there I have forgotten the name. I have forgotten the name of it now, a pretty awful pub I seem to remember. Or we would go and see, go to the pictures eh, go and have a supper out somewhere and eh that was nice. We had quite a lot of free time as far as that was concerned. During the day time we had to report to our different sections. I had to report to the navigating sections. Oh by the way to, we had to deliver eh logs to the navigation section and they would be looked at and logged A,B,C or D you know and if they hadn’t been done properly we would be in for trouble. Which I thought was a bit, a bit of unnecessary really for after all, there but anyway that was what it was. There was a good lot of teasing went on and eh it was quite a happy occasion. Eh being in the, being in the mess and getting to know other people. Navigators tended to stick together and each group tended to stick together. But we used to go out as a crew, get drunk and all those sort of things people do or did in those days. I remember it being a socially, happy time.
AS. When you em, how did you hear about the end of the war, when were you told about it?
MH. I think we must have been at the station when we heard about it. Em some people went to London eh, eh I personally made some friends in,in Market Harborough. Met a bank manager there who my family knew his brother and eh they were awfully nice to me I must say and I would go and spend the weekend sometimes with them. Em,sort of a bit like going home. Occasionally we had leave and I could go and for instance on Christmas of that year I was able to go back to my parents. And who were, who were in a state, they were very nervous. They didn’t show it, I only heard about it afterwards. And eh anyhow it was very nice to, I was very fond of them, eh it was very nice to be home again and have proper sheets on the bed.[laugh] and be, and be looked after sort of thing. It was, it was very necessary that you didn’t talk too much about what went on. Eh and especially you shouldn’t write about it eh through your parents or anybody else. A great friend of mine eh from my time at London Ontario, eh made a big mistake in writing to his parents about it. Unfortunately his letter was censored and eh he was had up before the group captain and eh he was all but eh loosing his commission, he didn’t but it was a lesson for him. So, so I had to arrange a scheme with my mother were as I wouldn’t tell her what target we had been on the night before. It was nearly always reported in the newspaper, I used to cut it out of the newspaper and just send this piece of the newspaper to her. So she would know from that and funnily enough only the other day, just before you came. I came across the book that she had kept all these eh cuttings in. So anyhow that is just by the way.
AS. At the end of the war, what happened to you at the end of the war?
MH. Yes, ok at the end of the war was absolutely eh, eh I don’t know, everything suddenly changed all of a sudden em, it was very disappointing in many ways. When we were in uniform during the war the air force, particularly aircrew were regarded with a high, from the public with high regard and eh we were extremely proud of that. Uniform and having a brevet and eh, and being at the squadron we were highly respected. That all vanished as soon as the war was over we were just people again [laugh]. Eh and eh there was a feeling of, well I didn’t have a feeling of relief that the war was over I regret to say. Because I really wanted to complete the tour and, and do the thirty, thirty missions all together.So I was really disappointed and anyhow it was a sort of no mans land type of place. We didn’t know what was going to happen, nobody did. I, I as I say I didn’t go to London to celebrate.But eventually we were given a choice,that we could em, join another squadron which would take us abroad. Because em,a long time had to pass before we could be demobilised in view of the enormous number of people involved. In fact it took me about eighteen months before I was demobilised. So we were [sounds like weren’t] given the opportunity of volunteering em to go abroad in Transport Command. So Howard and I talked about it and I was all for it actually, there was nothing, I didn’t want to go down a mine or, or be a harvester or anything like that. So and I thought there was an opportunity to see a bit of the world so and he seemed to like the idea and the bomb aimer eh, although he wouldn’t be a bomb aimer he would be a second pilot. There would be just four, they would be Dakotas we would be flying, a bit of a come down from a Lancaster. He eh and the wireless operator we decided we would like to do it so we said goodbye to the gunners and the flight engineer. And eh so that was rather sad the crew was broken up actually and I never saw them again. So the four of us were sent up to 10 Squadron which was in a place called Melbourne in Yorkshire and there started training again on, on Dakotas. For me it was easy well very easy indeed I didn’t have much to do and I had almost forgotten pretty much what we do there, what we did there.[cough]. It was to get used to dropping eh materials out of, out of, out of the plane. Eh which I didn’t like the sound of very much. The plane door was open and we had to push things out and get used to that and get used to being in a, in a Dakota. Anyhow and also being on a different squadron which was a Halifax squadron which we thought was going another step down as well. Eh so eventually came a time when we would eh, fly out to India. So that took place from Cornwall and eh I remember my parents were holidaying there. I met up with them there and they saw us of actually. So we flew out to eh India in Dakotas, by stages, by stages from there, the first stage was in,in,in Corsica I think it was. And then to Libya, then to Palestine as it was then, then to em,em East Africa and then to Aden and stopping the night each time. We didn’t do any night flying at all so it took quite a long time to go.Unfortunately from the flight to Aden I developed a sinus which was extremely painful em with the pressure. So I had to stay behind there and they had to get another navigator to take them on to India and I stayed in Aden for a week. The worst week of my life I think, it was just awful feel ill and all alone, heat, humidity, just awful. Anyhow all things come to an end and I eh flew as a passenger to Karachi and then, then eh to Bombay and then was told that 10 Squadron was in Poona only a short way away from Bombay. So we joined the, we joined them there and met up again with Harold of course who by now was a squadron leader, I was now a flying officer, eh and eh the bomb aimer who was a pilot had been commissioned as a pilot officer and the wireless operator, awfully nice guy he was there still as a flight sergeant. And we did trips up to here and there Karachi mainly, mainly and eh then Harold who was quite a bit older, two or three years older than I am was eh demobilised. And returned to Canada where he eh he was married to a Canadian so we said goodbye to him and the bomb aimer to, the second pilot he was called by then. He was an older man to so that just left the nav, wireless operator and myself of the original crew. [door bell rings] Em, so I wasn’t very happy on the squadron and eh, eh there was an opportunity to join another squadron in eh Calcutta, number 52 Squadron and eh volunteers were being asked and Johnnie the wireless operator and myself volunteered to go to 52 Squadron. So they allowed us to go. So we then flew to, as passengers to 52 Squadron in Calcutta. This was to have quite a big effect on my life actually. From 52 Squadron which was a very nice squadron to be on eh, they were flying between Calcutta and Hong Kong. So we then teamed up with a new pilot called Rex Ainsworth who was a very proper pilot with a moustache and eh second pilot Paddy Williamson, four of us. And we flew between Calcutta to Rangoon, to Bangkok, to Saigon to Hong Kong. That was the route, staying of at each place for the night.We all liked Hong Kong so much because there were a lot of things going on there it was fabulous after war rations and so on. Something always seemed to go wrong with the plane at Hong Kong, funny [laugh] Anyhow I left [unclear] and that happened a few times, there were other trips to. Then the squadron moved down to Mingaladon airport, that is the airport for Rangoon. And we were stationed there for a time. Then at long, long last my number for eh came up for,for going home and eh so I went home on,by boat. Took about three weeks, I was home carrying a bottle of whisky and eh eventually to my home to the great joy of my parents and myself and then wondered what am I going to do?
AS. So how was fitting back into civilian life?
MH. Yes that was difficult, that was difficult because we were so used to discipline of the Air Force and how one spoke and behaved and so on. And coming home to civilian. England was in a poor state, this was January 1947. Dreadful winter, one of the worst winters ever recorded and coming straight from, from Burma that was noticeable shall we say. Em getting used to English ways, the country was demoralised. Rationing was worse than it was during the war I think. No idea of a job, I didn’t know what to do, I had been in the Air Force for four years. I didn’t want to go back to the bank eh every thing I saw, the people I thought were lacking in spirit and fed up so what with that and the weather. But, but when I was being demobilised I was told about, there was a course for em ex officers which lasted about eh, eh three I think about three or four weeks,to help you, to help you learn what to do about being a civilian again. I remember this and I thought, the course was at Worcester and only about sixteen miles from where my parents lived, a place called Ledbury in Herefordshire. Em I thought ‘I will go on this course.’ It was a good opportunity, so I went on the course and eh telling us all about accountancy and eh various other subjects and all the rest of it, which is, which is quite helpful. But the main thing about this was at the end of the course, if you were considered suitable, there were offers of various jobs from companies. So I remember BAT, British American Tobacco eh had a job and I thought, ‘I don’t want to stay in England any more it is hopeless, everybody is so down and out, what am I going to do, I had been abroad, I really want something better than this.’ I thought ‘ok I will go abroad again.’ So I applied to BAT and they wrote and said ‘yes we would like to see you, come up to London please.’ So I came up to London and spent two days at one of the railway hotels at their expense and went through a whole lot of questions. And eh seen by a psychiatrist I remember eh, asked all sorts of difficult questions. Hopeless questions just to see how you would react and at the end of it em, eh they said ‘we will get in touch with you.’ At the same time there was another company in Calcutta who were looking for eh a company secretary. I thought oh, well I, I might add I had vowed when I was in Calcutta that I would never in my life, ever [emphasis] return to this city again. It was because of the heat and the humidity and, and poverty and anyhow, so this was in Calcutta. So, so there was a firm with a head office in Coventry Alfred Herbert Leading in Machine Tools [?] So they invited me for an interview as well. So I went to Coventry and eh, and eh there were three or four other people after the same job I think. Anyhow I got an offer of a job from eh BAT at the same time as I did from Alfred Herbert in Coventry. Both very different jobs, there was a snag about both eh. With BAT you had to say you wouldn’t marry before you were twenty five and that you would spent all your working life overseas. I didn’t like either of these at all. Both tying me in. With, with the Calcutta one, the climate and for reasons I have just said I didn’t want to go back there.Anyhow I eventually chose the Calcutta one and I got a job on a four year contract. Went out to Calcutta again[laugh] as a civilian in a very different city for my eyes from what it was before and eh there I stayed for eleven years.
AS. Working for BAT?
MH. No to BAT I said ‘thank you very much I am taking the other one.’ So with Alfred Herbert. It was a good choice, it was a good choice. They had this enormous area of land, the whole of India [unclear] parts of India to cover and Ceylon and, and Malaya and that and Thailand. So it was enormous. And I, I did well there and prospered. I was made a director eh and the only reason I left there really was for health reasons. I really found that my health was suffering because of the climate so I came back after eleven years then had difficulty settling down in England again. But the idea of living abroad now had gone.
AS. When you came back were you working for the same firm?
MH. No, ah it is interesting, when came back, I wanted to go, I went to Coventry eh to see if anything was available and was told ‘we really appreciate what you have done but we are very sorry we haven’t got anything available for you.’ Eh that was a big blow for me because I had hoped maybe to go to Australia where they had a subsidiary company or maybe to Italy. Anyhow,but there was a good reason that they didn’t have anything. Within five years the company was, had been taken over by Government and was, was bankrupt. Alfred Herbert,so Alf, so Alfred Herbert who I met on a couple of occasions at least because his third wife used to live in Calcutta. So that was the sort of common touch and she always wanted to see me whenever I went to Coventry on leave. The four year contract I had with, meant I had to stay in Calcutta for four years. I, I wouldn’t be allowed home in that time eh and eh then I would have six months leave and the next time I went back it was a three[two?] year contract, four and a half years. ‘Are we, are we still on? Oh, can I diverse?Yes.’Once when I was in Alfred Herberts in their factory in Coventry, and enormous factory making machine tools. You couldn’t see the end if you stood up. Because I was a director of the subsidiary company in India eh I was allowed to have lunch with directors and the senior staff in Coventry. So on this particular day eh, I was invited in to have lunch at, at, at the canteen I suppose and they said ‘This is where Sir Alfred generally sits, but don’t worry about it he has gone home and you won’t be in any trouble, just sit there.’ So I was sitting next to the place where Sir Alfred generally sits. Sir Alfred I might add was greatly feared in the whole of the. He had founded the business since I had been, enormously successful for him and eh his word was well, it was wise not to upset him. So there was a general chatter going on whilst you were giving your order for lunch. Suddenly the door opened and in walked Sir Alfred, his Rolls Royce had broken down. So he came in and sat right next door to me. So he said, the waitress came up and eh, so he said ‘I will have this or the other for lunch.’ And then turned to me and said, everybody was quiet at this time of course. ‘Well Heaton,’ he said ‘Tell us something about India.’ Well of course I was enormously embarrassed so I said ‘well Sir eh, it’s very hot.’ [laugh] He saw that I was embarrassed and [laugh] moved into other conversations. Anyhow when, when I had decided to leave and eh he wrote me a letter, personal which I still have eh and asked me what my reasons were for leaving India. And I told him, eh I think he was afraid that I might be, I might know something about some wrong doing or something like that in the firm. And I was very friendly with his grandson actually eh and he thought I would tell him, because he addressed this letter not to the company but to my private residence. Then said when I came home eh that I should report to him. So I had hopes of that but in that time he had died at ninety one. I have a photograph of him in my study that I can show you in due course and you can see from his face the sort of man he was. Well then, when I came home, then I, what am I going to do? How can I can a job? Well, started looking at advertisements all the rest of it. And eh wrote of eh tantalising letters I hoped to eh, to eh various places who I thought would be very happy to have me with my, with my Indian experience and being a director at a young age and all the rest of it. I thought, I had high hopes, I said to my mother ‘don’t worry I will soon get a job.’ I didn’t get a job. Those people who replied to me were terribly sorry, not suitable eh disappointing thing. In the meantime time was getting on and eh, eh I was running out of my leave pay, final pay. And eh, so very disappointing, getting a bit disheartened as well thinking is something the matter with me. And so I was looking in the Telegraph and I saw there was eh, there was a estate agency up for sale, for half sale. So I said to my mother ‘I will go and have a look at that.’ In Surbiton near London. So my mother came with me, we went to Surbiton and so this rather pokey business and half of it was available to me if I bought it for two thousand five hundred pounds, which was quite a sum in those days. We are talking in nine, eh nineteen fifty nine, fifty eight, nineteen fifty eight.Anyhow short of the tale was I thought ‘blow it, yes I’ll pay it.’ So I bought half the company without knowing anything at all about estate agency. But I felt I had to get away from Ledbury and that was, that had been the problem actually. Anyhow I started work with this company. Didn’t like it very much, thought I would have to make a go of it. Found out [unclear] there had been some fiddling about.With the customers deposits being used for paying wages or something. When I asked my partner ‘what is all this about?’ So he said ‘well we haven’t got the money.’ I said ‘you can’t use this to pay.’ So straight away, up to see solicitors, they said ‘you must resign at once and get out of it.’ Which I did, I thought what about my money ‘well you will, see what the best we can about that.’So there I was having bought a house in eh, em, I have forgotten what the place was Hersham, Hersham on Thames and eh back to square one. So then I started asking, answering advertisements and immediately got a reply and got a job straight away, Bush House as a company secretary. I stayed there for one year, there was no, no eh future for me in there. Eh I looked at another advertisement in a, in a print, printing factory also for a company secretary, got that without any trouble. That was sold to Pitmans and new people came in, didn’t like them, stopped there. Moved out of there, got a job with International paints, eh a job much lower than normally I would have taken there. And quite enjoyed it, I thought I must make a move again. I saw an advertisement in the paper em, eh jeweller requiring a company secretary must be about forty, that was exactly my age. I applied for it, then I was asked. ‘Am I boring you with all this? Just stop me.’
AS. Please carry on.
MH. Tizex[?] were the people concerned I had to go to them first and as luck may have it there was a, a Sir Hilary, somebody I forgot. Anyway he was a rear admiral during the war and in the Indian Ocean. So Indian Ocean, I thought ‘oh India.’ So I mentioned ‘Really where were you in India?’ That put me out from other people who were applying for the job, I believe in retrospect. So Anyhow, he said ‘ok I have got to see a lot of people, we will be in touch.’ About a month went past, he rang me up one evening at home, he said ‘are you still interested in the job?’ I said ‘yes I am.’ So he said ‘come and see me again.’ So I went again and he told me more about the job. The job was Ciro Pearls Ltd with eh, with em shops in this country, in Germany in and in America. Eh so widely run. So he said you [pause] ‘look shortlist now six people and eh you will be hearing from them.’ Anyhow I heard from them, present yourself at the shop in Regents Street and I was the last one. Oh Chairman a very nice man, a Russian Vladimir Gorash em. I have got his photograph here to.And eh a few simple questions. In short I went home it was Easter time, I said to my mother ‘I think I have got that job.’and I had. When I got back there was the offer. Well that’s my last, I was with them for twenty five years. Em,and rose to be Managing Director and in time Chief Executive Officer of the entire group. So it was really a good move. So I did a huge amount of travelling particularly in America, East to West Coasts. Em all over in this country,right up as far as Aberdeen. [Unclear] in Germany many[unclear] and in Austria we opened a shop in Vienna another one in Saltsburg. France in Paris altogether about a hundred shops altogether or about a hundred outlets I should say. There em and I retired em when I was sixty five having done twenty five years with the company. Em; did well salary wise eh was almost my own boss pretty well. The eh, the,the Russian Chairman retired and died.And eh I became, became, I took over his job and held that for about eh oh I suppose twenty years going up to that job altogether. So, so it finished, a highly satisfactory, very interesting, the shops were all in the best possible places. I travelled by Concorde or first class. I was expected to, to eh act in a, a certain way and with that came all these props as well. So it was a very interesting job for me. Quite unlike anything I had done previously. I went round the world once and called in on Calcutta to my old place again to in Alfred Herbert and met some of the staff which were still there. So em and since then retirement, just enjoying myself until now[laugh].
AS. Thank you very much as far as your aircrew were concerned you said that you, when you changed squadrons and went over to India you left three of them behind and you never saw them again. Did you keep in touch with any of the other aircrew.
MH. Yes my pilot, yes until he died, he was in Canada.
AS. Was he a Canadian?
MH. No.
AS. But he married a Canadian.
MH. Yes, he was, he was a teacher an RAF teacher there, an instructor. He was an instructor in Canada em then he decided he wanted to take a part in the war.He was in the Air Force as an instructor, he wanted to take part in the war and came back to England and that’s where I met him. But he had married when he was in Canada, this Canadian girl. Em, so he came back by himself leaving her out in. in Canada. She actually did come over with a view of staying in, in this country until the end of the war but she hated it so much that she went back to Canada. So he was without his wife until he went back again. Unfortunately he was on the booze and he died, he was only sixty nine.
AS. Oh right.
MH. The others I have lost touch with.
AS. Right, well thank you.
Dublin Core
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AHeatonSM160322
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Interview with Stuart Michael Heaton
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Sound
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eng
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01:22:28 audio recording
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Pending review
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Andrew Sadler
Date
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2016-03-22
Description
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Michael Heaton grew up in Worcester and was a member of the Air Training Corps. He worked in a bank before joining the Royal Air Force and trained as a navigator in Canada. He completed 22 operations as a navigator with 50 Squadron from RAF Skellingthorpe. After the war he was transferred to Transport Command with 10 and 52 Squadrons in the Far East. Following demobilisation, he went into various jobs and when he retired he was the CEO of Circo Pearls Ltd, where he had worked for 25 years.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Transport Command
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Canada
East Asia
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
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Hugh Donnelly
10 Squadron
50 Squadron
52 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
C-47
demobilisation
fear
Gee
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
military living conditions
military service conditions
navigator
RAF Melbourne
RAF Skellingthorpe
Stirling
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/242/3387/PCromartyGE1601.2.jpg
713c8e51f5763e62d4eda4b9f11e54f9
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/242/3387/ACromartyGE160305.1.mp3
efbe41056dde54715af8a2233c18d12b
Dublin Core
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Title
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Cromarty, George Eric
George Eric Cromarty
George E Cromarty
George Cromarty
G E Cromarty
G Cromarty
Description
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One oral history interview with George Eric Cromarty (b. 1924).
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-03-05
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Cromarty, GE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JM. This is Julian Maslin and I am interviewing Mr George Cromarty today March the 5th 2016 for the International Bomber Commands Central Archives. We are at Mr Cromarty’s home *** Stoke on Trent and it is about half past ten in the morning. There are no other persons present. George thank you very much for agreeing to talk to me today, could I ask you to start by telling us a little bit about your background before you joined the Royal Air Force?
GEC. Where to start, I was born in Bermondsey, South London, South East London, my Father was a builders labourer eh, I am one of eight children, two elder brothers and the others younger than me obviously so I was third in the family. We had a hard life I suppose, things were never easy, money was short but we still all survived, all of us, they must have done something right. Em, I always wanted to fly even as a very small kid. I think I told you I used to watch em writing in the sky, writing Persil and Sunlight and that sort of thing and I would always like to do it but never dreamed that I would get the chance. I never thought that for one minute and eh until the war started and then I thought perhaps there was a possibility that I could join the Air Force eh. But still didn’t think that it would happen but it was still a possibility. I left, I was in London during the bombing which wasn’t very nice and I think I was sixteen then when I finally left London, went to work in the Midlands, in Bedfordshire. Working in the building trade you, you couldn’t, you were in controlled labour so you couldn’t chuck the job in at any time you had to stay there. So if you wanted to join the Forces you couldn’t you wasn’t allowed to you were in a semi occupation that was it, reserved occupation that was it so I couldn’t pack the job in until the particular job we were on finished and then they let me. But then by that time I was due for call up and they let me go anyway. So eh, I asked to go for the Air Force and eh I went to Astra House in London before a selection board and I think there was four or five people round the table that were doing the interviews. They all had rings round their arms up to their elbows, I don’t know what rank they were I have no idea but they were obviously well up in the Air Force. I told them I wanted to go as a Pilotbut my education was no so there was no chance of that at all really, I still wanted it. They said “you can go as an Air Gunner” I said “I don’t want to go as an Air Gunner I want to go as a Pilot.” At the end of the table there was this Officer and I know he had a huge band on his arm so he must have been at least and Air Vice Marshall. [laugh] He was sitting on the end and he was a big man, a broad man, he made three of me he was that big and he had a big Walrus moustache and eh, he looked at me and he looked over his glasses and he said “and what’s wrong with Air Gunners?” and I looked at him and said “nothing” and when I looked he had an Air Gunners Brevet on his chest. That put that one stopped, anyway they didn’t say no more they said alright “we’ll leave it for that for now” the next thing I knew I got called up for the Air Force of course then I went into in eh, in Bedfordshire, Cardigan, eh
JM. Cardington.
GEC. Where the balloons come from, Cardington wasn’t it, that’s where I first went and from there I went to Tangmere on the South Coast where 486 New Zealand Squadron, hope my memories good there, I am sure it was 486 New Zealand Squadron, they had Typhoons at the time. I worked on those and every opportunity I got I used to jump in the cockpit, if they were towing them I was first on in the cockpit, ‘cause someone had to get on the brakes. When they were towing someone was on the brakes and it was usually me and if they were towing them into the buts to fire the guns it was me that got in the turret, they didn’t bother, nobody seemed to bother you know, everybody else was quite content to let me do it. I would sit in the Typhoon and stick it up on the ramp, you know, lift the tail up and point it at the buts and then they would fire the guns and of course it was me that fired the guns, sit there and press the button. I used to love that, really love it and eh we used to refuel the planes that came in from other Squadrons and land at Tangmere this is during the eh, first part of the Normandy landing I think it was and they were doing quite a bit of low level strafing you know the Spitfires, Hurricanes you name it they were there. They would all land at Tangmere and I was part of the gang of GDs that went out and helped refuel them. I mean I didn’t do the refuelling or reloading but I was there to help.
JM. GD is?
GEC. General Duties, AC2 lowest rank possible in the Air Force but General Duties was what the class that they called us and em, of course we used to help them to reload. The Pilots would lay around on the grass in those days. They would get out of the planes lay on the grass while we refuelled them and made sure they had enough ammunition. They would take off from Tangmere, go across to France and when they finished they came back to us usually and refuel and if they were going out again we would rearm them. Sometime that would come back again, refuel and go to their own drome. They used to Mess at Tangmere, they always used to gather at Tangmere, we’d have hundreds of planes there at the time and it was quite exciting even then. I used to love that, you would get on a truck with a trailer, trolley ack on the back and you would pull it out to the plane. They didn’t have starters most times, you would start them with a trolley ack and eh, this is what we used to do and it was good time and I suppose I stopped there for about six months. There was an Education Officer there and I got talking to him and I told him I wanted to go as a Pilot. He didn’t say anything, he didn’t try to discourage me but he said “why don’t you come to classes and we will see what we can do” And this is what I used to do and the Air Force let me have one day off to go to classes and I used to go to Education Classes and I would do stuff on a evening on my own, giving us work to do. I would do Maths and English and things like that ‘cause my writing and English was atrocious, it was bad, so they did teach me a lot.
JM. You told me you felt at a disadvantage being left handed.
GEC. It was a terrible disadvantage because they wouldn’t let me use my left hand in school they would wrap me across the knuckles with a ruler. My left hand was quite bruised most of the time where the ruler was crack across the hand. I had at one time my arm was strapped behind my back to stop me using it em. It wasn’t a nice time as a kid being left handed because I am sure the idea was if you were left handed you were backward, you weren’t normal and eh I had an elder Brother who was very clever. The fact that he was very clever made it even worse because they picked on me even more. They thought if he was clever then I should be and I wasn’t so that was it. So as I say it was a hindrance but in the Air Force it didn’t seem to bother them, they weren’t bother whither I was left handed or right handed and I liked that eh, I did write a little poem.
JM. Could we look at that later on.
GEC. Yeah, I’ve got a little poem I wrote when I was there but em, Anyway I joined, went to the Education Classes for about six months and in the end he came to me one day, this Education Officer and he said “ I have got a request for you to go to Flight Training School, eh Gunnery School, would you be interested?” “Well eh yes anything is better than stopping here, you know” So he said “right we will put you down” and within a couple of weeks I was at Flight Training School. Went to Dalcross in Scotland and went to Gunnery School there. I had a lot of trouble being sick, I got air sickness and eh they did say to me at the end of it, at the end of the course “if you want to pack up you can, because the sickness is that bad, if you want to pack up you can but we are not asking you to, as you will probably get over it eventually” I said “no I don’t want to pack up, I got this far, I certainly don’t want to pack up through something as silly as being sick.” So anyway they let me carry on and after that I think I was only sick once it, it seemed to stop for some reason. Whither, I still think to this day, it is probably something to do with your ears, it’s balance and I still think to this day that’s all it was, you know. I was sick in the Anson and I was only ever sick once in the Lancaster. I was never sick in the Wellington or Stirling or any of those. So it was only the Anson and only once in the Lancaster and that once was a different Pilot it wasn’t my own Pilot and that was the only time, I don’t know perhaps it’s something to do with the way you feel I don’t know, but it didn’t happen again.
JM. Could you tell a little about what it was like training to be an Air Gunner?
GEC. Em, I can tell you an incident in the Ansons, it was ok we was flying up the Cromarty Firth, which is my name and when we used to come back I mean, it’s a bit silly I know but when I was sick you had a helmet, gas helmet, plastic helmet and I was sick into that. So of course when I came back I used to have to go into the toilet and wash it out, clean it all up. In the toilets was an old Scotchman he was always there and he would come up to me and say to me “ah good morning to you lad” or something like that.I can’t use the accent but he would say “have you seen Cromarty this morning” and I would say “yes” it was the town of Cromarty and we used to fly quite near it. That was the same regular thing, I would get asked the same question. We flew up and down this Cromarty Firth in Martinettes with the tow beside us that we were shooting at. I enjoyed it, it was good fun. But one time we took of and I think, I think it was three gunners to a plane if I remember rightly. The Pilots were Polish so em, you couldn’t really have a conversation with them, you get in turn into this turret but they are a funny turret because you put, put your head in and the seat is just a little platform on a, on an arm and when you put your backside on this arm you can alter the controls so that it lifts the seat up. And of couse as you lift the seat up it pushes the guns down and you manoeuvre from side to side just the same as you do in a normal turret. As I say you turn the controls to lift your seat up so as your seat goes up and then when you focus your gun on something or you want to go up you want to go down you go up from the controls. This particular one we had every time I depressed the controls the seat went up and it kept going up and up and up and so I was squashed in the top of the turret. Now they didn’t, you weren’t allowed to land in the turret, when you land nobody was in the turret when it landed. See in this case I am stuck in the turret and I can’t get out. There is a jettison at the bottom of the turret which I can’t reach but someone else in the plane could. They tried to jettison, to release it but couldn’t so of course I was stuck there. Then they had to get special permission for us to land with me in the turret which was unusual and eh but this is one of the things, one of the incidents happened you know. Apart from that the rest of training went pretty well.
JM. I understand that different Gunners had bullets with different paints on so they could work out is that actually what happened?
GEC. Yeah each Gunner had a particular colour, there is three Gunners one had red, one had yellow one had blue so that we all fired at the same drogue and it was then cause when we landed they’d drop the drogue on the runway and count the number of particular spots on the drogue. If mine was red the number of red holes in it were down to me.
JM. And a drogue would be kind of a long sleeve of material.
GEC. A long sleeve is about twenty foot long I suppose, it’s quite long.
JM. Did you train to fire at night?
GEC. We did,not really not there, no. Not in Gunnery School that was nearly always done during the day., but then you did when you started getting onto Wellingtons, then you did. But then you were doing it with cameras not with bullets. But em, but say with the Ansons with live rounds, I think I done really well, I think I got seven per cent hits sounds lousy but they seemed to think it was pretty good at the time. So you got seven hits out of two hundred rounds, sounds terrible doesn’t it but as they say most of it you wouldn’t have wouldn’t have hit them anyway. The chance of hitting something is pretty slim you just aim and hope, you know. I think this is what it was but em, they seemed quite satisfied with seven bullets.
JM. But what happened after Dalcross?
GEC. From there we went to a place called Bridgenorth I think, I don’t know why we went to Bridgenorth we didn’t go straight to a unit. I think there must have been too many Gunners at the time, you know too many trained Gunners they just couldn’t ‘cause then you got your Sergeant when you left Dalcross and we went to Brigenorth I know. We did a bit more training there, ground training we didn’t fly at all and then from Dalcross to OTU.
JM. And OTU was?
GEC. Bruntingthorpe 29 OTU that was on Wellingtons, that was pretty good. We used to do night flying there, we used to do cross countries eh we did quite a bit of night flying there. Then we would be attacked on the way by different fighters when we went round. They would never tell us where but em, you had to keep your eyes open and eh and they would attack you again with cameras and we had cameras fitted to the guns. We took film of what we were doing and they took film of us.
JM. Did you spend a lot of time on aircraft recognition training?
GEC. Yes you do that right from the off. Right from when I first joined Aircrew which was in Regents Park, went to Regents Park that’s where we first went and you do it there ‘cause that’s where you do all the Medicals and everything at Regents Park and eh. You do all your training, quite a lot of the basics there, most of the aircraft recognition there, but em.
JM. And was it at the OTU that you formed a Crew could you tell us about that please?
GEC. Yes it was at OTU that is where you first get a Crew, without the Engineer, no Engineer there.
JM. How did you Crew up how did you form a Crew?
GEC. They just stick a load of people in a room and say sort yourself out and that was how it was. I think with me the, the Pilot, the Navigator and the Mid Upper Gunner they were all Bank Clerks so I think they had something in common, ‘cause in those days Bank Clerks was quite a good job, wasn’t it? So I think they had something in common there.So that probably drawed them together. With me I probably one of the last Gunners to be left you know, so I got picked because I was the last one. But em, we got on alright as a Crew we seemed to get on ok.
JM. Your Captain was an unusual –
GEC. Yeah he was South African em he was in the South African Army Air Corps. He was a Captain, Flight he was a Lieutenant not Flight Lieutenant he was a Lieutenant in the Army and during the time we had with him he was made up to Captain. So he was a Captain in the Army, he talked semi German if I can say it that way. It wasn’t an English accent but it wasn’t a pure South African accent it was quite a lot of more German accent. He did say yah and nein, not a lot he tried to stop himself I am sure. But he did say it when he got excited he would say it which was quite funny really. He had a peculiar name, I could never say his name and the last three letters of his name was r.o.n. Ron, so this is what we called him was Ron we always called him Ron. Say we couldn’t say his name Brand or something like that his name was but it was an African name. None of us could say it, he accepted Ron and that’s it, so we called him Ron. But he was nice bloke I liked him you know, a bit stern eh, eh he kept us in control, there was no messing about with him, you couldn’t mess around with him. We would go out for a drink together, we would get drunk, blind drunk most nights when we did go out. We’d go out as a Crew all the lot of us, we didn’t have cars in those days we had push bikes so we all rode down to the pub on pushbikes but you never took the pushbikes home they were always left there until the next day none of us could ride them but em if we weren’t flying we were drunk, it was a good life.
JM. Did you do your first Operations, did you do Nickel Raids ?
GEC. We did a Nickel on Stirlings, I don’t know what was going on, I can’t really remember why we did it but we actually did a Nickel up the Coast, then across to France and we travelled right up the Coast to Holland dropping Nickel all the way.
JM. Now Nickel was the code for leaflets wasn’t it?
GEC. It was the foil, we were dropping foil.
JM. Window ?
GEC. Window yes, yes so we dropped that along the Coast, went up and back again. So that was the first real op if I can say it that way, though it didn’t count as an op.
JM. It didn’t ?
GEC. No that was on Stirlings so that was on Conversion Unit.
JM. And where were you on Conversion Unit?
GEC. Eh Swinderby.
JM. Swinderby near Lincoln.
GEC. Yeah, in Lincolnshire yeah. That was ok there I liked it there. Stirling’s were nice planes to fly, they were heavy if I can say it that way. They were nowhere near as agile as the Lancaster no they was all slow and cumbersome.
JM. Limited ceiling.
GEC. Yes they did have limited ceiling, it was limited ceiling although we really didn’t test it ‘cause we were only just getting used to four engines, that was all and that was when we would get an Engineer when we got there, that is where he joined us. I can remember one day in a Wellington we were flying along somewhere and eh, we swapped over Gunners the other Gunner got in the turret, I got out and walked up the fuselage. It was only a narrow gangway up the centre of the fuselage and eh, they are only fabric only and eh and as we were going along the plane lurched for some reason to one side and I came of the gangway put my foot right through the canvas. They didn’t say nothing they just accepted it, it wasn’t really my fault. I was a bit clumsy but it wasn’t really my fault it did lurch ever so badly, he really, it went from one side, really tipped and I just wasn’t ready for it and I just woop, and your foot’s of the board. The board is only about a foot wide and you are off the board and through the floor but eh, there it is.
JM. And from Swinderby you went then to Lancaster Finishing School.
GEC. Lancaster Finishing School that was at Syerston at Newark, wasn’t there for long, only there for a few days about nine days, no longer and then from there to the Squadron.
JM. And tell us about your posting to the Lancaster Squadron.
GEC. To the Squadron, we didn’t do much at first, when we first got there. You don’t straight away go into it, they keep you training, we did a couple of high level flights a couple of cross countries, things like that.
JM. This was six three zero Squadron?
GEC. Yes 630 Squadron.
JM. And this was at ?
GEC. East Kirby in Lincolnshire em but as I say they don’t throw you straight into it and then the first Op. that I did was with another Pilot, not my own but I done it with this Pilot. But none of my Crew went on an Op that night, I was the only one that did because that particular plane was short of a Rear Gunner he was ill for some reason and they were short of a Rear Gunner so they stuck me in it, so I went on that on me own. Now the others, the first Op. with my Pilot we had another Pilot with us. So there was two Pilots and that was the first Op. we did, I can’t think where we went now.
JM. Now what age were you when you started flying on Operations.
GEC. On Ops. Nineteen I suppose [unreadable] I would have been nineteen.
JM. Can you tell us what it was like to sit in the rear turret of a Lancaster as you were going on an Operation?
JM. Em, it’s, it’s when you, the first thing you find in the morning you look at the board and you look to see if your names on the board, the name of the Pilot is on the board, not your name it would be the Pilots’ name to say whither you are on that night or not. You do this every morning when you get up, you go for your breakfast and in the Mess hall in the hall in the entrance is the board and on the board are the names of all the people who are on flying that day or that night and you look down that first to see if your names on it. But if your names on it you knew you were in, on for call. Now usually eh, you went for briefing about three o’clock in the afternoon, something like that, depends what time you were taking off, but they would tell you what time it was. You would go to briefing and when you would go to briefing they would tell you where you were going. Of course you all, you would go into the room, all the Crews are in the room and the maps on the wall but the wall’s covered in a curtain so you can’t see where you are going it’s just the cover. Then they take the curtain down and it’s either a gasp or a ha! You know and everybody gasps as to where you are going. Once you realise where you are going and eh, at that time you would get a bit scared, can I say it that way, you would say oh, bloody hell that’s a long way [laugh] you would get a bit worried then. Once you started getting dressed it used to, I mean with me we had so many clothes it used to be unbelievable. I wore silk gloves, I wore woollen mittens, electric gloves, gauntlets over them. My body was silk vest, silk long johns, ordinary vest, ordinary long johns, shirt, trousers, eh, May West, heated suit, capox suit, waterproof suit all on top of one another, so when you finished you looked like Michelin Man, you couldn’t move. Flying boots, diving sailors socks right up to your thighs, big woollen socks and eh, see once you got dressed you couldn’t move. This used to take you about an hour to get dressed of course if you wanted to go to the toilet you either went then or you never went at all. And eh you had to then get dressed and once you were dressed you went into the final briefing and then they would tell you where you were going. I think that was the worse time and then you would take off at say five o’clock in the evening, six o’clock in the evening, you make your way out to the truck and they would take you out to the plane. You used to sometimes sit outside the plane for say, quarter of an hour, have a smoke. I never smoked until I joined Aircrew, you sit in classes doing aircraft recognition, navigation whatever you were doing and we sit in classes and they would say after about an hour, break for a smoke, of course I didn’t smoke. Everybody else was smoking and I was sitting there not smoking and in the end you joined them you know, you had to have a smoke didn’t you? So I ended up started smoking, biggest mistake I ever made, smoking. Then of course, when we went to the plane we would, say sit outside for ten minutes, quarter of an hour, have a smoke before we got into the plane. More often than not I would be the last one in, ‘cause quite often I could turn the turret to the side and climb in from outside where everybody else had to go through the door. If I had to go from inside I had to, you had to lift yourself in. You had a couple of bars over your head and you had to, you’ve got the rear wing spar and you had to lift your feet up into that spar. So you pulled the, hands on the lead bar, lifted yourself with your arms and you slid your legs in. Then you had to work your way in sliding all the way into the turret, so your feet went into the turret first, ‘cause you couldn’t walk in, there wasn’t enough room, no height you know there was just enough room to crawl through. You slid in and plonked yourself in the seat, I know a lot of them when I’ve been to Coningsby they talked about people having their parachutes in the fuselage, stowed in the fuselage. I didn’t mine wasn’t stowed in the fuselage it actually was me seat, it formed the cushion for me seat and I used to actually sit on me parachute so it wasn’t until I, I used to put it on outside the turret, but once I got inside the turret, the seat, formed the seat and the harness was already on. Once you got into the turret it wasn’t a great deal of room. You had a bit of a wire and you pulled the wire and the doors shut behind you, there were two sliding doors. There was a chopper on the top of course to cut yourself out should anything happen, which was more dangerous as it was because it was there. More often or not you hit your head on it because every time it bounced, you bang on the chopper. That’s the thing that happened once I think we done about ten ops, I don’t know, quite a few and eh, and they decided the Pilot had to do circuits and landings and he didn’t like it at all. He thought it was below him to do circuits and landings so we took off and we done a couple of circuits and a couple of . Probably about the third one eh, he asked for permission to land and the control, girl in the control tower said, eh, I can’t remember what the plane was but we used to fly “Uncle” if we could, She’d say Gauntlet,Uncle permission to land, we ask for permission she’d say “Gauntlet, Uncle permission to land” permission to land and she’d say “bounce to the end of the runway and turn left” [laugh]. It really got him annoyed anyway we went round this once and he came and he hit it that hard, he did hit the ground with a thump, I banged me head on the chopper, I thought I had knocked me bloody head off on this chopper ‘course he burst the tyre and it stopped on the runway lopsided and we all jumped out the plane. I had to spin the turret on its side and out and everybody else pours out the doors. Of course we look around and there is no sight of the Pilot anywhere. Well what has happened to him.so a couple of them go back in to try and find him. When they get back in there he is in his seat, in the cockpit, sitting there snoring. He was blind drunk [laugh] he had got upset for sending him on circuit and landings he’d gone and got himself loaded with whisky. He got away with it, nobody said a word, we didn’t say nothing, just got him out the plane and back to the Mess before anybody knew.
JM. George can I just pause you there just for a moment just for the tape, did you say Gauntley, Gauntley was the call sign for six three zero Squadron.
GEC. For 630 Squadron yeah, “Silk Screen” was the drome, “Silk Screen” that’s it yeah. That’s right we used to call up “Silk Screen” we would say “Gauntley, Sugar, Gauntley Lead” whatever. “Silk Screen, Gauntley, Uncle” The two callsigns, yeah. It’s a lot to remember, I am pleased I remember this.
JM.I want to take you on a bit, because you described so vividly sitting in the aircraft.Can you tell us what it was actually like taking off and when you were on a raid?
GEC. Before you took off you were, you were frightened, you were. You’d get in the plane, and you’d sit in there and they’d taxi in line there’s twenty five of you fifty all waiting to line up on the runway. At the end of the runway there was always the caravan and there was always people waiting there waving you of, always, every time there was always someone there. Probably a dozen perhaps thirty or forty people there waving you off. Once you took up the runway, once you went down the runway you were, you were on edge and of course the tower, I am stuck on edge I don’t face rear, I face the side and you lock it on the side for takeoff this is because if anything goes wrong you can jump out quick. So of course as you go up the runway the tail lifts of and the wheels get of the ground and he says, full power he says to the Engineer then he says through the gate, so they obviously go up to a gate with the throttles and he pushes him through to give him that extra power to get him off the ground. Once he does that you lift of the ground and you start to fly. From then on you are not bothered the fear has all gone. I don’t know how to explain it, you are not afraid any more, it’s just you are there, you accept it and then you sit back and enjoy it and honestly I do, you enjoy, you enjoy the flying. I did anyway whither other people did or not I don’t know, I did I used to actually enjoy it and it wasn’t until you got to say the French coast or the German coast or even the Dutch coast you know, Denmark em, it wasn’t until you got to there and flak started coming up that you was concerned again, I don’t think it was you was really worried. You worried when you got to the target but you didn’t worry before that. You know em, that’s a thing that em, used to happen to us, you would see these huge balls of fire, beautiful colours, this big ball. Say it was all the colours of the rainbow in this ball and we used to call it spoofs. I don’t know if you ever heard this before but we used to call them spoofs and when we came back they’d say “how was it” and we would say “yes we saw a couple” Oh yes you are bound to see them they did do them you know. It wasn’t until several years after the war I found out they weren’t spoofs. I mean this was quite a while after the war and I found out that they weren’t, I think they should have told us.
JM. Would you like to tell us what they were?
GEC. They were real planes, they were planes going up, I didn’t know it nor did any of us but it was planes. It was always on much the same level as us. So it was other aircraft, other Lancasters.
JM. Blowing up?
GEC. Yeah, Yeah.
JM. And this was due to ?
GEC. Enemy aircraft fire, anti aircraft mostly, I suppose the odd one would have been fighters but if it was we didn’t know. It was definitely aircraft going you know. I thought it at the time but when we came back and would say something they would say “No it’s only Spoof.” So you’d sort of well alright, they must know what they are talking about so we let it go. I suppose if we had known it would have really frightened us, really frightened us so I suppose it’s as well that we didn’t know, yeah.
JM. Now you completed twenty two operations between the autumn of 1944 and the end of the war and I understand that some of them have left a particular memory with you Politz was one and Dresden was another, could you tell us about those please?
GEC. Yeah em, we did one daylight, I think that is an easier one to tell you em it was only on Dortmund Emms Canal. I think it was Dortmund Emms Canal, I am not certain about this but it was one, it was a daylight anyway. It was the only daylight I did, the planes, normally you didn’t see other planes you occasionally seen one whip past the tail, you didn’t see many, they were there but you didn’t see ‘em. But in the daylight you see ‘em, they are above you, below you, everywhere. There was a plane that was right over the top of us and I watched his bomb doors open and I watched his bombs fall and they went past our tail by I imagined inches but it must have been more than that. It was that close if you can imagine a bomb going past your turret and that is how it was and that was really frightening.[Laugh] I said to the Pilot, for Gods sake get out the way. He said he could see me as much as I could see him and I thought that was it, alright, that was it was really frightening. But eh, that was the only daylight I did and I didn’t want to do any more. [laugh]. The Politz raid the Pilot got the DFC for that was because we left left Lincolnshire went out to the North Sea out to Denmark, crossed Denmark and lost the engine as we crossed the Danish Coast. Em, we weren’t very high at the time, we were climbing I think we would leave this, this country and we would start climbing towards Denmark, I suppose when we got to Denmark we were at about six to seven thousand feet, no more. Of course we had lost the engine, it meant that we were very slow then to pick up. I heard the Pilot and Engineer talking between themselves, he said “ how’s thing Joe?” the Engineer was Joe. “are we alright” “yes” “any, any, how’s the fuel?” “ yes that’s ok” “think we can manage if we go on” “ Yes we are alright” Didn’t ask anybody else just the Engineer. “Alright we will carry on” and so they carried on and we crossed the tip of Sweden and then into the Baltic and eh we couldn’t get the speed that we wanted and we couldn’t get the height. I hear people talking today of Lancaster’s doing 260 and 290 mile per hour we never did 290 mile per hour we used to do 190 and if we were down hill would perhaps get 210, 220 out of it but that was all. Certainly with a full load on it you couldn’t do too much more. You might have got 200 with a struggle. Not everybody could do it so to keep us all together we used to stick to eh 190. So as I say as we went along we couldn’t get the height, I think the bombing height was 14000 but we could only get up to about 10. We ended up about ten minutes late over the target I do know that and we went across the target and eh we got picked up by the blue searchlight and we were actually on the bombing run then so the bomb doors was open and we were doing a nice steady run. The beam caught us and as the beam caught us some German Gunner must have been trigger happy and he fired probably too soon because the other searchlights hadn’t coned onto us only one had us and none of the others. ‘cause what happens the blue one comes on and the others cone in on it. Well only the blue one had us and the others hadn’t coned in and the shell went under the back of the plane and tipped it so we went nose down and we went from ten thousand down to about six thousand I suppose and the Bomb Aimer had gone forward in the turret and smashed the bomb tit that he had in his hand, that smashed, it was useless. So the Pilot said “what are you going to do?” He said “ I can’t do it from here we will have to jettison” So he said “we will go round again then and jettison” I am sitting in the back and thought “oh my God” they must be mad. But there it is they turned round and went back in again. The Wireless Operator jettisoned the bombs, when the Bomb Aimer told him the Wireless Operator jettisoned the bombs. So we jettisoned the bombs and we set our way home eh, the whole trip was oh, about eleven hours so the engine packed up after two hours so we still had another two or three hours to do before we got there. So it was quite a long way on, on three engines plus the fact, I can’t think what engine it was but whatever one it was it affected the mid upper turret, the mid upper turret wasn’t working. Luckily it wasn’t mine because if it had been mine we would have gone back for sure. But eh the mid upper had packed up so we had no upper turret, if had met anything we were in trouble and eh, but eh we got back ‘cause when we landed he called up to land they said, I don’t know what it was Gauntlet Sugar I think we were in “number fifteen or number seven to land” and he said “nein, nein number vun, number vun” I don’t know what they thought in the Control Tower at the time they must have thought it was a German Invasion.[laugh] Anyway we got over it.
JM. You must have felt a huge sense of relief when you got back after that.
GEC. It was, it was it’s nice, it’s nice to get back on the ground and of course the first thing you did, the minute you were out the plane, was light a cigarette, sit there, shaking I’m sure.
JM. Now I understand that your Navigator had an interesting technique, tell us about that.
GEC. He always stuck to the middle of the stream if he could. I mean he couldn’t see the stream no more than any of us could. But I, me being in the back I don’t think anybody else could see the planes around us, perhaps the Mid Upper Gunner could. Me being in the back could see them crossing over, they would go from Port to Starboard I would watch them. If two or three of them did it I knew we were coming out of the stream and I would say to the. The Navigator would call me and say “how are we doing George?” and I would say “they are going from Port to Starboard” “right two degrees Starboard” he would move the plane over and then he would say straighten it up again, or two degrees Port then a couple of minutes “two degrees Port” were in the middle of stream and of course when we talked about it afterwards this is what he told us. All the time he kept altering the course to get us in the middle of the stream, “never on the edge” he said” they bit you off on the edge, I’ll make sure you're in the middle” I always thought he was a bloody good Navigator for that, nobody objected, least of all the Pilot who had to do the corrections, he never used to say nothing. But I think it’s him that got us through it, the Navigator, I am sure it was him as much as anybody. The Pilot was good no one can argue on that, he was a good Pilot. They were a good Crew all of them, I can’t argue with any of them but the Pilot and Navigator I think were exceptional. It’s those two that got us through it anyway I’m sure of that.
JM. You took part in the Dresden raid.
GEC. The Dresden Raid, yeah, we were the first in at Dresden, we bombed at ten o’clock. I think 250 planes were the first ones into Dresden. It was very good we actually lined up on Leipzig, so we, we homed in on, we actually did the course to Leipzig and them from Leipzig we done a straight line from Leipzig to Dresden. Now Gerry thought that we were bombing Leipzig I’m sure so he concentrated on that but we then actually over run Leipzig straight into Dresden and bombed Dresden. So they wasn’t expecting it at all. There wasn’t a great, there was flak from Leipzig quite a bit but there was none from Dresden, hardly any at all. So they wasn’t expecting it, it was very quiet when we got there, nothing there, the flares went down and we bombed on the flares then we turned, as we turned away it was starting to burn, and it was really burning. I could see it a good fifty or sixty miles after we left the target I could see it burning and it was really burning you know really bad. And em Bomber Command sent 750 at twelve o’clock and the Americans went next day and had another go, so there wasn’t much left of it. I think you know a bit much wasn’t it, bit drastic but eh I suppose it’s war isn’t it.
JM. I understand you had seen some things in the Blitz of London which influenced how you felt about;
GEC. Yeah I was there during the bombing in London and em, I lost a lot of Family, quite a lot. I mean probably fifteen, twenty of my Family were killed. Not my actually Family but my relations Aunts, Uncles, Cousins. One particular Family lived at a place we called Downtown, they had a block of flats it was right in the Dock area of London and eh, they lived there because when the Docks were bombed, the first day of the bombing they moved them out into a school a bit away from the Docks and the bomb actually hit the school and killed all the people in the school. So all the Family that were in the flats, the flats are still standing today, but they moved them into the school and they all died and that was eh, it was me Uncle me Mothers’ Brother, his wife I think he had about seven, seven, eight children and only I think one of them or two of them survived. He lost an arm and an eye, me Uncle. So and there were a lot of the Family like that, you know who died, so em, I,I,I wanted revenge you know they, they, I. It was unnecessary he bombed London willy nilly he didn’t care what he hit, did he? So I don’t see why we should care and when I hear people say “you shouldn’t have done this, you shouldn’t have done that” I think he should, you know, I think he was right in everything he did.
AM. Lets have a pause there shall we. [tape paused]
AM. Will you tell us some more of your stories of the Operations that you took part in?
GEC. The one to Leipzig, em, We couldn’t get, the cloud was fairly thick, we went from here to France and from France to the French Alps but we couldn’t get up high enough to get over the Alps and eh of course we had gone into ten tenths cloud. We couldn’t see really where we were going. Eh, we circled and circled to try find a way out and we we couldn’t and a lot of people I know, we found out afterwards, a lot of people turned back, probably half of our Squadron turned back and em. In the end the Pilot saw a gap in the clouds and he said to the Navigator “I am going to go for it” So they went for this gap in the clouds and once we got through it, me being in the back could see that the gap that we had gone through and the lightning was dancing across it full blast. So it was a bit scary we had actually gone through a wall of lightning more or less. But eh, as I say we got there all right and we got back all right so it must have been ok. We, we went to a place called eh, Wesel there were only twenty five planes on, on that one. The Controller called us into bomb and the first plane in well almost the first one dropped a couple of bombs into the river, into the Rhine and the Controller screamed his head off “stop bombing, stop bombing” and eh nobody took any notice we all carried on and bombed but the rest of the bombs actually went onto the town of Wesil. So it worked in the end and none of them fell on our side in the end so everybody was happy on that one.
JM. Now I think Wesel is spelt Wesel and we are dealing with the crossing of the Rhine in the Spring of 1945 April?
GEC. Yeah, Yeah it must have been, I can’t remember dates like that but you are probably about right, yeah, it was it was, the Army was advancing through France and Germany in those days another one was on a place called Royan on the French coast. They sent us there, the Army had gone completely round it. So it was just stuck in the middle on its’ own, Germans in the middle, British or American Army all round it and they sent us there because there was a lot of tanks and they were causing a bit of trouble so they sent us there to bomb that and we bombed that. There was no resistance at all we just went over and dropped bombs and came home again. It only took a couple of hours, it was a very short one. So you couldn’t really call that one an op, just a day out. I dunno much else that happened, I know at one time I, I wanted to go to the toilet and couldn’t, got dressed and thought I will go when I get in the plane and of course you know where it is, you forget all about it. Of course we carried on, we’d been flying for about eight hours and I wanted to go bad by then and I said to the Pilot “can I get out of the turret?” well we’d crossed back into France and he said “all right go on, come out, go to the Elson in the fuselage” Of course I walked back to the Elson, or crawled back to the Elson and eh you have got your parachute harness on and eh I am banging the button on the harness and it won’t release. I am just bang, bang, bang, bang and it just won’t release it. It just stays there and of course I am in such a predicament by then and I just said “oh bugger it” and I just crossed my legs and peed and it goes all down me legs into me boots, doesn’t it. I got back into the turret and plug the suit in, it will soon dry it but it didn’t it shorted it out and it fused the bloody lot. So of course I didn’t say nothing more to them but em, I, I often wonder, I probably did suffer a bit with frostbite because it solidified in me boots. So I didn’t do that again, I made sure I went to the toilet after that.
JM. Did you ever have problems with ice crystals in your oxygen mask?
GEC. No, no it got pretty cold no but it never really got that bad, it never really got that bad. I heard some people did but it didn’t happen to me anyway.
JM. I understand that your tour of duty was influenced by your Captains sporting activities ?
GEC. Yeah, he was full back for the Springboks. In his early youth he cracked his skull so he was the only person in the Springboks team to wear a crash helmet, so it was a head guard, wasn’t it?
JM. This was the rugby team.
GEC. Yeah, Yeah ‘cause nobody else in the Team would wear a hat, they don’t today do they or very few of them. He wore this thing because as I say he had a cracked skull at one time. What it meant was that being a Rugby Player he would get called for the to play Rugby, because he had to go up to Twickenham to play it. So of course, more often than not if there was flying at the weekend and rugby at the weekend it would be rugby rather than flying. Of course when he got the DFC everybody on the Squadron said he got the DFC for rugby playing not for flying.[laugh] Which is probably true. Another little incident I can remember quite well, we used to have to do gunnery duty on the ‘drome around the ‘drome there was I think six or eight gun emplacements there were two, mounted twin point fives and they was all round the ‘drome, I think there was about eight of them altogether. All the Gunners on the ‘drome were on a rota to man these guns. Now if you weren’t on Ops you were supposed to be on the rota to man guns. Of course, sometimes on a Saturday night we would have a dance in the Mess, so we would all get done up in our best clothes and went to this dance. Usually about seven o’clock in the evening it lasted until twelve. On this particular Saturday we em, it was our turn on the guns you know we was, I think there was about eight pairs. Me and the Mid Upper Gunner we were allotted to a particular gun. What you are supposed to do when you are told you are on to find out where your gun is, go and have a look, see where it is and everything about it. Go and have a look at it and see that it is working all right and then come back and you are ready should anything happen in the evening, you are ready to go out there. Well we didn’t bother, no nothing will happen, we didn’t bother we went to the dance all in our best blues and of course the siren went about nine o’clock didn’t it? Course we had to get on our bikes then and find this bloody gun. So we hadn’t a clue, we had a rough idea where it was. So we would get on the bikes and go up this country lane, no lights is there, it’s all black and eh, we, we driving along and I said “it must be here somewhere, well it’s on the left, it can’t be on the right, no it’s definitely on the left” we look over this edge and there is this mound in the middle of the field “it’s there, there look there it is you can see it” “alright” he said “where is the gate” I said “ I can’t see no blooming gate” he said “go on I will give you a lift over” So he puts me foot in his hand and hoycks me over this hedge. Of course the hedge has got barbed wire in it, in’t and of course as I come down it just rips me trousers from top to bottom. I said “well that’s it I am in the field at least” So I run across the field to this lump and of course it gets up and goes moo and runs of [laugh]. Of course another half an hour later we are still trying to find this gun. Eventually we find it, we pull the cover off and pull the cover of and when we are standing there, pulled the cover off, hadn’t even cocked the guns or anything over comes Gerry a JU88 and he is ever so low, he couldn’t have been more than a couple of hundred feet up but he didn’t fire he just went straight across the ‘drome and em if we had been on the guns as we should have been we could have had a go at him[laugh] but we didn’t. After that we went to [unreadable] the gun, we didn’t leave it to chance anymore, good days though.
JM. Could you tell us a little about what it was like to live on East Kirkby on the base there. What was the accommodation and the food and the atmosphere like?
GEC. It was a Nissan Hut there was about a dozen people to a hut. Crews were in one hut, Officers in another, bloody cold, we didn’t have central heating or anything, we had a, what do you call them, a pot bellied stove, just a little stove in the middle of the room and we could go and get coal or wood from the corner of the, there was a heap of coal at the edge of the field you know the are where the tent, where the Nissan huts were. We’d go and load a bucket up with that and fetch it back, stoke the fire up, keep the fire going. There was a lake quite near and round this lake was moorhens, ‘cause moorhens would lay their eggs round the edges and we used to go out and raid this nest and collect the eggs up. Perhaps about two dozen eggs, we’d sit round, put the frying pan on this stove and cook these eggs. The trouble was we didn’t think to break them into a cup first we’d break them into the pan. Of course you would get about ten or twelve eggs in the pan and keep breaking them in you know and one of them would be addled wouldn’t it of course it ruined the lot, start again. [laugh] We did that again and again. But we used to have a feast on moorhens eggs.
JM. Did you have the experience of loosing friends on Squadrons?
GEC. Yes I lost a Mate eh,on the raid on the Rosettes. He was a Tail Gunner, his name was Herbert Davies came from Shropshire, the same as a Rear Gunner the same as me. We got on well together we used to go out drinking or girlfriends and eh. This raid on Rosettes he got shot down, as far as I know he is buried in a cemetery in Berlin. I have never been to see it perhaps I ought to one day before I get too old. The Pilot I know is buried in Belgium but the rest of the crew were never found. I think they only found two of the Crew. The Pilot was American, his Pilot was American. Dave I called him, his name was Herbert, horrible name, he was Welsh, Welsh accent because he lived in Shropshire which is Welsh almost Welsh wasn’t it ? [pause] he was the closest that I knew, you know I mean other people, lost other people there that we knew. The worst part was when you came back and eh they’d come into the hut and picked up somebody’s belongings and eh you knew then they weren’t coming back, that was about the first year. I mean in debrief you knew that someone was overdue but you never knew where they went because they were over due. They could go almost anywhere, they could be in France, they could be in England somewhere. But eh when they came in to collect their belongings that you knew that they were gone. That was upsetting you know, that really was upsetting and it used to happen a lot we didn’t loose, we didn’t, six thirty didn’t loose a lot of planes at least I don’t think they lost a lot but eh the ones they did loose it used, it used to feel it.
JM. Did the replacements come in, did the replacement crews come in quickly.
GEC. Fairly quickly yeah, there was, there was usually ones to take their place pretty soon, yeah. It was the planes that they had the most trouble replacing.
JM. As a, as an Air Gunner did you have much to do with the Armourers in terms of maintenance of guns and bullet loads and things.
GEC. No, no you didn’t you didn’t do a lot to that, no. I mean you had to know how they worked and every thing about them to work them. You relied on them to look after them and they did usually. I can only remember one occasion when I got into the turret and turret was swimming in oil, me boots just were sliding on the oil and eh I thought it would give me trouble, I thought if it is leaking you know the oil that bad, I am going to have trouble but eh, before we took off they sent for the Armourer because you know you couldn’t talk to anybody, they had to do it by Aldis Lamp and they sent for an Armourer and he came and had a look because he used a tissue or something, paper, because he mopped up this oil well he saw it would be alright and left it at that. ‘cause we took off, I think we were late in taking off at that time because of this. But it did happen it was alright in the end and it did work out, so it must have been something they spilt on the floor, rather than a leak.
JM. You mentioned that your Pilot got an immediate Distinguished Flying Cross was there any discussion about the awarding of medals, what was the attitude of people to that?
GEC. Em, I don’t think any, I didn’t really give it a thought, we came back, we came back of that raid and eh the same night they gave him a medal it wasn’t , it wasn’t discussed or anything like that it was just immediate you know straight away, the DFC. We didn’t fly no more, that weekend we was sent home on a hol, on, on leave so we had I think it was nine days leave so they did that immediately. Didn’t talk about it just said get on, right get on leave. So they gave us a week to get over it which I suppose is a good thing in a way.
JM. Did you have any experience of knowing of cases where Operations were too much for men.
GEC. There is only one that I can remember, LMF but em there, there wasn’t a lot there wasn’t many. I don’t, I can’t remember a lot about it. I know it happened and I know the person, I can’t think of his name now but I do remember the person and he was just frightened, that was all there was to it, he just couldn’t cope. Which is unusual most be people do, most people hide their fear don’t they? But he couldn’t and that was it. So I mean, I don’t blame him for one minute, probably more brave than I was because he had the guts to admit it, there it is.
JM. Could we now turn perhaps to how your Operational Career finished and what happened to you at the end of your Service could you tell us about that please?
GEC. When the War finished in Europe it was still going on in Japan wasn’t it, my own Pilot, the day War finished he went straight back to South Africa. He didn’t even say goodbye he just went and that was it. In the Mess one day and he was gone. We were immediately allocated with another Pilot, the Crew was still together but just a new Pilot and eh they were talking then about going to Japan or going to the Middle, the Far East and they were saying that we would convert to Lincoln Bombers and go to the Far East but we had to volunteer for it. We had to volunteer as a Crew, so we discussed that between us and we all said yes, this is what we had in mind going to the Far, converting to Lincolns and going to the Far East but em as I say they dropped the Atom Bomb and that was it finished that so that, stopped it. Because once that happened everything was eh finished and they just shut down six thirty Squadron, shut down straight away, more or less. Em, they went me to Weeton just outside of Blackpool to eh retrain and I went as a Fabric Worker of all things, repairing bi planes a little bit of upholstery or what ever. I did I think what was a six weeks course at Weeton and then from Weeton I went to Holmesea South and there I went into the workshops at Holmesea South and we did a, we looked after maintenance of all the vehicles which in those days, quite a lot of them were canvass backs, canvass tilts on them. We resprayed the cars I had I think three or four people working for me, because at that time I would have been a Warrant Officer so they had to find me something to do. I had a couple of Jamaicans in there and I had a chap an Irish chap he was a Sergeant, Sergeant Gunner. There were a couple of LACs in there if I remember rightly. There were about five of us in this place and we used to go out and pick up a wagon or lorry or car or something and fetch it in if it was a bit dented and I would get them people to straighten it up and we would respray it in the shop but eh, I didn’t like it, it wasn’t it wasn’t me. So of course they came across to me one day and said would you be interested in leaving, so I said “yes.” That was it I just packed me bags and went but eh, if I had been flying I would have stayed, I would have stopped to this day but eh, once you stop flying you loose interest.
JM. Could I just ask you finally just to say how you feel about the way Bomber Command has been treated and your feelings about Harris and Churchill.
GEC. I think it has been treated very badly, I always have done but eh. We’ve never got credit for what we did whither we wanted to or not. We didn’t get credit for it, we got a stupid little medal, it’s not a medal it’s a piece of tin, which I don’t thinks’ right at all. I mean people got medals just for going from here and stepping one foot in France and they got a medal for that. But we, not me personally, a lot of them did sixty ops or so. Although they did get a medal if they were in before 1944 I think it was but after that they didn’t get no matter how many ops they did they didn’t get a medal for it. You got the European star which everybody got if they were in Europe no matter what you did. So it wasn’t really a medal for being in active service in France or Germany it was just a medal for being there eh, so that I think was unfair. There it is can’t alter it. With regards to Harris, well I admired the man, he had a difficult job it is something not many people can do, is it? There is not many people who could have done his job. And he did what he did, what he believed with what he had and really did believe in what he was doing, you have got to admire him for that. I mean, I think I have told you they used to tell us he would get his boffins, his local men and get half a dozen of them and give them a couple of bottles of whisky and send them to the country and say “come back with the next target for me” and they would come back and tell them which target to bomb. There was not method to it, it was just random. There was a bit of method but this is what we used to say. Course another thing we had a saying, a little ditty what we used to say, Merseyberg, Colingsberg, Politz and Gadinia 2154 going sick. 2154 being the amount of petrol, fuel you carried, that of course meant that it was the longest you could go so you knew you were up for ten, eleven hours. So of course that was the words, you know and Merseyberg, Colinsberg. Politz and Gadinia they are all ten or eleven hour trips so that is the little ditty that used to go around the drome. ‘Cause specially if you got on that night was one of those, that would come straight out. On the whole it was a good life, at least I think it was. I am still here, a lot are not for those I feel very sorry. [Pause] some nice blokes, some very nice people that I knew. Dave in particular was, I thought a nice person nothing aggressive in him at all no, no he was a nice person. It shouldn’t happen to people like that but it did and it happened to a lot of them didn’t it? It’s the evil ones like me who stayed. I always said I must have been ever so evil because he never called me they reckon he only calls the good ones.
JM. George Cromarty thank you very much indeed. I thought that was an excellent place to stop.
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ACromartyGE160305
PCromartyGE1601
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Interview with George Eric Cromarty
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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01:17:35 audio recording
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Pending review
Pending OH summary
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Julian Maslin
Date
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2016-03-05
Description
An account of the resource
Mr Cromarty joined the Royal Air Force as an AC2 and served as ground personnel before training as an air gunner. He flew operations as the rear gunner with 630 Squadron from RAF East Kirby. He discusses what operations and life on a station were like and how Bomber Command has been remembered.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Air Force. Fighter Command
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Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
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1944
1945
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Hugh Donnelly
29 OTU
630 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
Anson
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
fear
final resting place
fuelling
ground personnel
lack of moral fibre
Lancaster
Lancaster Finishing School
Operational Training Unit
perception of bombing war
RAF Bruntingthorpe
RAF Dalcross
RAF East Kirkby
RAF Swinderby
RAF Tangmere
sanitation
Stirling
training
Typhoon
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/240/3385/PCoxJ1606.1.jpg
1bcdedc530fd2f872407ddab9e936c8e
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/240/3385/ACoxJ160321.1.mp3
06100ff099a07721ae8e49ba1bd5acd8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Cox, John
John Cox
J Cox
Description
An account of the resource
Seven Items. Includes an oral history interview with John Cox (133397 Royal Air Force), his logbooks and photographs. He flew operations as a pilot with 626 Squadron before becoming a prisoner of war.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by John Cox and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-14
2016-03-21
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Cox, J
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell the interviewee is John Cox .The interview is taking place at Mr Cox’ home at Old Oxted in Surrey on the 21st of March 2016. Right could you perhaps tell us a little bit about your, like where you were born and your up bringing.
JC. Yes I was born in a town called Bourne actually, in Lincolnshire, that was spelt Bourne on the 15th of November 1922 and I was brought up there, I had two brothers one younger, one older than me we all went to the local grammar school and eventually each of us went into the services my elder brother went into the Army, he became a captain in the Army and was posted to India for a good time in of the war. My younger brother was, didn’t join up because of his, he wasn’t old enough until shortly before the war finished. As far as I was concerned I was always anxious to get into the Air Force and I looked forward to it with some relish. My, we all went to the local grammar school, we all enjoyed sports, I particularly enjoyed cricket. I used to cycle to Nottingham, to Trent Bridge some forty miles away to see a game of cricket when I was about fifteen. So, and I used to play cricket locally, then I decided that, well it was decided for me after I left school that I had to earn a living and I considered myself fortunate to be, to receive an entry into the Midland Bank. Now in those days it was not customary for anyone in the Bank to be allowed to work in the town in which they were born. So I was sent in fact about some sixty miles away to at the age of sixteen to a town in Norfolk it was called Wymondham, it was spelt Wymondham but locally pronounced ‘Windham’ and I went there into a small branch of the bank and I enjoyed a very, a very nice period there, I was only there for about four months I suppose before war was declared and I clearly remember the Sunday morning when we listened to the broadcast to say that we were at war with Germany. Whilst I was there in Wymondham I again played a lot of cricket for the local teams, I was staying in a nice boarding house together with some of the younger people who required accommodation like I did. I was entirely happy, it was only when war was declared I of course that I had to look at things rather more seriously. I wasn’t old enough to go into the Forces at that stage I was only sixteen but nevertheless it was looming in the distance that I was eventually got to join up and I was looking forward to joining the Air Force.
DM. So what was the route you followed into the Air Force, how, how did you come to join the Air Force?
JC. Well before the war I was interested in gliding as well as other things. I did a bit of gliding which gave me which gave me a lot of encouragement that I might be accepted in aircrew I didn’t know whether it was or not. But after that and when my time came to be called up I had an initial interview at Cardington I think near Bedford that is where they used to keep the R101 I do believe, the airship in the hangars there or outside the hangars and there we had a medical examination and a very brief interview with three Air Force officers who asked very simple questions which any idiot could have answered and I was accepted in as potential aircrew. Sent back home again and then eventually I got the call to report down to London where, which was the general reception area for aircrew and I found myself living in some very expensive flats in St John‘s Wood, all the furniture and important articles had been removed from the flats and we were just sleeping on the floor of the flats. Incidentally I found myself in a troop of thirty chaps, I was the only Englishman, all the rest were from the West Indies and they had just come over to England for the first time and very anxious to see London and with the result that we didn’t see much of them for quite a time because they were absent without leave. However eventually they came to heel and we went through the usual motions of being marched round the streets of that part of London by the corporal in little troops of about twenty or so and he would stop us at some little tea shop where he got his free tea and we had to pay thrupence for a cup of tea. And then we had our medical examination in the Lord‘s Cricket Ground in the Long Room at Lord‘s, which was absolute sacrilege for a for a cricketer but nevertheless we had our examinations, medical exams there and then we proceeded to be issued with our uniforms. I remember the big boots we were issued which took a little bit of breaking in. We used to have our lunch each day, be marched to the zoo and we had our lunch in the zoo, the animals were still there, we could hear the sounds of all the various animals as we were having our lunch. From there we I was transferred to an Initial Training Wing at Cambridge to Pembroke College. We had the College had been placed at the disposal of the Forces during the war. I remember it was very cold indeed we used to have to wash outside in the mornings in a sort of a little tub, the living was a bit sparse but nevertheless it was very interesting we then began to enter into our studies, aircraft recognition and everything applying to flying. We used to spend a lot of time at Cambridge being marched from one university to another where we had the privilege of receiving our studies in some of the well known universities. And we, the idea was at the end of our initial training there we should be sent to an Air Force Station where we would commence our flying. The course in Cambridge covered learning the morse code and many matters concerning RAF law et cetera, et cetera. Anyway I found myself being sent up to Scotland to an aerodrome called Scone which is near Perth. This was in the middle of winter. It was in January and when we got there we were suppose to do some initial flying to see if we were going to be airsick and that sort of thing otherwise we would have been thrown out. However when we got there it began to snow, we were only going to be there for three weeks but in three weeks we got one hours flying, because each day it snowed, or each night it snowed and each day we were spent clearing the snow off the runways. However the three weeks went by reasonably quickly and I found myself flying I think a couple of hours in a Tiger Moth. They satisfied themselves that I wasn’t subject to airsickness and so I was then delegated or instructed to go to America. We went over to the Clyde and boarded a relatively small American ship I think it was called the USS Neville it was a small one. We went in convoy then over to the State everybody was seasick without a shadow of doubt but we had a, went over in convoy and we didn’t have any, meet any trouble from the enemy at all. But when we got to New York that was that was a very pleasant environment in which to find oneself. Well the Americans had only just, that week I think it was just come into the war, Pearl Harbour had just occurred and they were forced into the war. They were then, as Americans are, very “gung ho” and everything was everything was sort of orientated to ensure that the troops were being prepared for war. Great celebrations, well not celebrations but incidents of patriotism in Times Square, New York where there were banners all over saying ‘let‘s go USA’ that sort of thing, it was all, they hadn’t experienced any war themselves at that moment. They were extremely kind to us, extremely generous, they enabled us to and provided us with tickets to go to any function almost, free of charge in New York whilst we were there. Personally I went to, I chose to go one night to a boxing match between Joe Louis and man called Abe Simmons at Madison Square Gardens. That was just one of the things I went to, but after a few days there they then arranged for us to board into trains to go to the Southern states of America, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Louisiana et cetera.
DM. So after you left New York where did you end up.
JC. Well we then went by train to the Southern states, I was very much looking forward to getting, starting to fly because I remembered in about 1935 when I was about thirteen years old I went to Sir Alan Cobham’s Air Circus which was, which came to my local town in Lincolnshire and I was absolutely thrilled to go and also very anxious to fly in the future. So anyway we got down to Tosca Alabama initially on the train. There we were well received by the local population, they hadn’t experienced any war at all down there or in America at all at that stage and they couldn’t have been kinder to us they really gave us a warm welcome and in Tosca, Louis or Alabama. I was attached to the local aerodrome where we started our primary training, we were flying Steersman aircraft. I remember I had an instructor called Mister Allan who was a very good pilot, not an awfully nice man but a very good pilot. I think before he started working for the US Air Force he had been a crop sprayer flying, flying low level and he was a very good pilot indeed. Well I managed to survive the six weeks course there in Alabama having gone solo after a few hours and I think when we done sixty hours we moved on to Turner Field in Georgia where we were then flying a rather heavier type of single engined aircraft. We did sixty hours or so there. After that we went to our Finishing School at Ellington Field in Houston in Texas. There we were flying twin engined aircraft, the Cessna 89 and some much more sophisticated aircraft after about sixty hours there we qualified to receive our wings. I was one of the fortunate ones who was invited to remain there as an instructor of the American Air Force. The Americans of course had a war forced upon them unexpectedly after Pearl Harbour and they hadn’t got enough instructors to cope with the large influx of pupil pilots of their own. So a few of us were asked if we would remain as instructors for the American pilots.
DM. How did you feel about that, were you pleased to stay or were you keen sort of to get into the fray back in Europe?
JC. Well no, I was desperately anxious to get home quite honestly. But I got messages from my home saying please take this opportunity to be an instructor in America because they realised the dangers were less over there than they were back home.
DM. You were out of harm‘s way.
JC. Yes I was out of harm’s way. In any event it was a, it was a very pleasant experience we had a course, courses lasted about six weeks and each of us had six pupils and they, I think I did about four or five courses there until the end of the year. It was a very interesting assignment and we knew we were eventually going to come back into the general fray of things in England but we did enjoy it over there.
DM. How did the young Americans I assume they were mainly young take to an equally young Englishman teaching them how to fly an aeroplane?
JC. They looked upon us with great respect strangely enough. I think it was because we had come from England where the war had been going on for some time and somehow they thought they they.
DM. You were the experts.
JC. Yeah they thought we knew all about it, in fact we didn’t we had only just trained ourselves but I suppose we had been selected because perhaps we had done reasonably well in out training and we were commissioned and generally speaking we, we did enjoy it. I, we had lots of privileges there too, for instance we were enabled if we wished to have an aircraft each weekend and we could go anywhere within a thousand miles as long as we were back by Monday morning and that was fine. We could take anybody with us if they were in uniform and so each weekend, not every weekend but many weekends we did make use of this great advantage. I remember one weekend I flew from Houston in Texas to the Grand Canyon in Arizona and, and back again. There was one restriction which was placed upon us that was that we were not supposed to fly more than a thousand miles away from base. Well the Grand Canyon was in fact one thousand two hundred and ninety miles away. So what I had to do was to fly to an aerodrome called Winslow, Arizona and land there and that was about three hundred miles short of the Grand Canyon. I had to refuel there, fly into the Grand Canyon, we flew around I took a Sergeant with me who was my Flight Sergeant on the aircraft, on the ground staff and we flew in the Grand Canyon and then flew back to Winslow, Arizona to refuel. So in fact I hadn’t exceeded the thousand mile limit [laughs] but had cheated a little bit and it was a very pleasant experience.
DM. Did you have to do your own navigation for that?
JC, Oh yes, there was just the two of us in a twin engined aircraft and they were lovely aircraft Cessna’s very much heavier aircraft than our Airspeed Oxfords and over here over in England, a fine aircraft. Anyway but that was a privilege, that sort of privilege made life very congenial over there and I exercised it quite a lot. We used to go to New Orleans and Kansas City and Memphis Tennessee, each weekend if we wished, we didn’t do it every weekend, but if we wished we could make use of that facility.
DM. So you were flying around the United States visiting places like New Orleans and having quite a good time. Eventually all good things come to an end and you had to come back to England. So what, what was the journey like, how did that go?
JC. Well, the journey back from America was interesting; we actually came back on the Queen Mary. Now the Queen Mary at that time was plying backwards and forwards to New York, without, without any support, without any military support or naval support because it was so fast in relation to the other ships. And so when we came back there were only about twenty of us I think on the Queen Mary from the RAF. All the rest were German, were American Soldiers and there were sixteen thousand on board. It annoyed us immensely because they all thought it was an American ship as it was so large, the biggest in the world at the time they thought it must be American. It took a lot of convincing them it was in fact an English ship. My colleagues and I in the Air Force were invited or requested via the ships’ crew by the Captain to go onto the flying bridge I think they call it in the fore end of the ship and spreads right across the whole ship and we had to keep our eyes scanned for enemy shipping or anything which needed reporting to the Captain. We had eight on the bridge at the same time each of us had in front of him a disc which had a segment marked out for us and we had to survey that particular segment looking out for enemy activity. Another, occasionally we had the extreme edge of this bridge to do our observations from and that was right over the sea, it was over the sides of the ships. The object, the objective of having those observation points was that we could look back along the side of the ship to see if there were any portholes being opened or flashing of enemies or flashing of lights to the enemy. Of course we didn’t, all the port holes were in fact locked and so it would be a problem for anybody to make any signals to anybody, but that was the object of that particular exercise. It kept us busy, we used to, used to do it about one night in three on the way back but it, I think it took us about twelve days to get back which was a long time for the Queen Mary then, it was going across in about three and half days in normal conditions, but we came back via the Azores which for security reasons apparently we did came, did a long circuit that way, that way home. That’s why we took so long, but it was an eventful journey. The reason it was restricted to sixteen thousand on board was that they could only serve thirty two thousand meals a day. So we all had two meals a day but they were very good meals.
DM. What was the accommodation like?
JC. The accommodation, we were, we were housed in the cabins and they were probably about ten in each two man cabin. We had bunks there to sleep in and they were stacked up the walls of the cabins we had about three or four cabins, three or four bunks on each wall of the cabin, so we were very crowded. Nevertheless the food was, although we only got two meals a day they were absolutely marvellous meals for war time conditions.
DM. What port did you come back to?
JC. We came, we came back into Gourock I think in Scotland and then we would ship down to somewhere near Liverpool overnight and then we came, I think we were allowed some time to go home. We had a bit of leave, that was, that was before we started on any serious flying in England again.
DM.So at this time you have been trained, you have been a trainer, you have come back to Britain. You have obviously not been allocated a squadron or anything yet.
JC. No, no we hadn’t. We were allocated to our squadrons we had all done about a thousand hours of flying already. So we didn’t need a lot of flying training I would suggest but we had to obviously had to get used to the Wellington and the Halifax and then onto Lancasters. We went to different aerodromes for that purpose. We had a reception centre at Scarborough in Yorkshire where and, and we were billeted in hotels there till such time as we we were allocated to our next station for training. First of all, then a Wellington a rather heavy aircraft, I didn’t care much for them, but that was the first English aircraft that I flew really. I had flown Airspeed Oxfords and lighter aircraft but that was the first heavy one that I had flown. Then we went onto Halifax’s at another station and then further on, finally Lancasters. From that of course we were allocated a squadron and that is the begetting of another story.
DM. How did the crewing up for the Lancaster come about.
JC. Well the crewing was a bit haphazard in my mind. We were just let loose with the aircrew, potential aircrew and they said well ‘just sort yourselves out’, you know, ’pick somebody you like the look of and, and if you want him he’s yours.’ So It really was a hit and miss affair fortunately I picked a very good crew, they were all friends of friends they were all very capable at their jobs. They weren’t truculent or boastful or cocky they were just very good crew members. We didn’t have a lot of jollity while we were flying in fact we had none at all. I used to make sure that there wasn’t a lot of idle chatter over the intercom ‘cause that was a bit disturbing and I, I stopped any of that, but we, we always worked well together. When we were on the ground we would go out together, possibly into Lincoln to whoop it up a bit. I’d got a motor cycle I remember that was a great help to me, I could get into Lincoln in about twenty minutes time. One night I was coming home after having probably a spot of liquid refreshment and I hit the railway gates which were closed [laugh] and went right over the railway gates much to the. The signalman came out and admonished me, I told him ‘he hadn’t got his light on the gates’ and he said ‘of course you haven’t got it on because you have knocked it off.’ I threatened to report him to the authorities he said ‘you can do what you like’ [laughs] I didn’t get very far with him. Anyway in Lincoln itself the squadron there was 626 Squadron I joined at Wickenby eight miles outside Lincoln we also had the 12 Squadron on the same aerodrome and but by and large we kept to our own squadrons for community reasons, friendships but it was a well run aerodrome.
DM. When did you receive your commission because I assume -
JC. I got my commission in America.
DM. You did? While you were training?
JC. Well, at the end of training, yes, those who became instructors also were commissioned at the same time. So I had my commission and I was a Flight Lieutenant when I was flying from the squadron in Wickenby.
DM. Were all your crew British or?
JC. They were, there was a Scotsman but they were British as you say. But on the night that we were, we were shot down my rear gunner who was a Scot was injured on his motor cycle, he had been into Lincoln and he was coming home he he had a crash and he was injured so on that particular night of our, of our operations, when, when it was a bit fatal for us, I had another gunner allocated to me and he was a Belgian. I had never met him before but as far as I was concerned, he was a good gunner and but otherwise they were all English. Eh I’m sure they were all English, yes.
DM. So can you remember anything about your first mission what your thoughts were, how you felt.
JC. Well, I didn’t have any apprehensions at all in, in flying certainly early on my own crew were well trained by then we done a lot of practice flying together we were, we were a good happy combined unit. No I didn’t have any apprehensions about it, no.
DM. Now you were based at Wickenby and you came from Bourne so you were sort of a local lad to all intents and purposes but did that mean you were able to see more of your family than perhaps your colleagues at all?
JC. In fact it didn’t because we had, we had to remain on the station whenever there was a possibility of any flying and we didn’t know what the weather conditions were going to be so they couldn’t give us leave and the tour of operations would normally be relatively short. Either you got shot down or you finished your thirty tours, thirty operations and it wasn’t going to be spread over a long period. No it was nice to have my family close at hand but I don’t think I ever visited them whilst I was operating.
DM. So where were some of the places you flew over?
JC. You mean.
DM. Where were your missions to?
JC. Well my first mission was to Karlstad [?] and that was in December of that year. And then I went to Essen and to Ludwigshafen to Ulla and Bonne and quite a few more that was in about two or three weeks we covered those few. Subsequently I went to Gelsenkirchen, Nuremberg, Munich, Ludwigshafen, Wiesbaden, Kleve, [sound of papers rustling] Dresden, Chemnitz, Dortmund, Duisburg, Flashier, Dessau, Kassel, Essen, Dortmund and finally shot down over Nuremberg.
DM. Before that fatal, so to speak twenty-first mission when you were shot down had you had encounters with enemy aircraft or bad, bad experiences with flak?
JC. Yeah, yes on each occasion usually there was some, some enemy action which was, was a bit disturbing, on occasions we had a clear run. But places like Nuremberg and Munich and Chemnitz, was a long distances to go and Dresden was a long way to go. Off course there was a lot of criticism about our bombing of Dresden. We didn’t know before we went we were going to cause so much damage. It was of course because Dresden was built mainly of wood and burned rather readily. It was a great shame about that but it did help the Russians to get into East Germany and quite a lot sooner than they would otherwise have done. Because the Dresden railway yards were being used by the Germans to bring their troops up and the Russians were complaining that we weren’t doing much to help them. They had come back from Moscow driven the Germans back from the doors of Moscow almost to the borders of Germany again, but their lines of communication were so long it was causing them problems. Just as it had caused the Germans problems when they got were attacked Moscow. They got to the gates of Moscow virtually but the weather and the long lines of communication caused them to be defeated there.
DM. The criticism about Dresden, I have always assumed it was after the war. Was there any criticism at the time, do you remember, I suppose people didn’t know what had happened then?
JC. There was no criticism in the British press I don’t think, in fact it was hailed as a great success probably. When I was shot down which was not too long after my trip to Dresden it was shouted at me by the Germans, ‘Dresden, Dresden, Dresden’ and it had obviously hit home very hard there. And it was a, it was a very unfortunate affair that so many were killed. But at least it did help to shorten the war because within about a month or so the Germans, the Russians were in Berlin.
DM. So turning now to that mission to Nuremberg when you were shot down what, what led to your demise?
JC. Well, Nuremberg, we’d been before we thought we knew the way there, we did know the way there quite well. We had, we got caught in searchlights which was a frightening experience. The master searchlight got us at twenty thousand feet earlier on then all the other searchlights coned in on us and it was at twenty thousand feet the inside of the aircraft was lit up as though it was daylight. One felt very vulnerable because there was nothing you could do to get out of the searchlights. If you weaved about the master searchlight seemed to follow you then all the other searchlights coned in on you and for a few minutes it was, that was quite a frightening experience. But the last mission to Nuremberg when we were shot down, we were attacked by a Junkers 88 and we were about, we were on the bombing run in, we were the bomb aimer, the bomb aimer was at his gun sights giving instructions to the pilot who was me to change direction very slightly here and there as we went in and it was at that time that we were attacked by this Junkers 88, yeah.
DM. So can you tell us a bit about the night when you were attacked by the Junkers 88 and shot down?
JC. Yes indeed we had completed about two thirds, two thirds of our tour and we were therefore quite experienced we had been to Nuremberg on the 2nd of January 1945 and we had moments of excitement but were not unduly concerned about the second trip. My regular rear gunner had a motor car, motor cycle accident the day before and he was replaced by a Belgium that we hadn’t met before but he had been well recommended to us. The notes I made at the pre flight briefing show that we were to bomb in three waves, commencing at three minute intervals and our aircraft was to fly the second wave from 21:33 hours to 21:36 hours we were at twenty thousand feet and our bombs, we were dropping our bombs on a heading of 084 degrees. Mosc, Mosquito Pathfinders with illuminating flares would be available at 21:26 and then they would follow up with red and green flares. If the target was vis, if the target was visual then red target indicators would be backed up with green target indicators. The aircraft would be staggered between eighteen and twenty thousand feet and the bomb load was one four thousand pound bomb and six thousand four hundred pounds of incendiaries. The, we witnessed considerable night fighter activity on the way there particularly south of Stuttgart where we had seen one or two aircraft going down and they were shot down by heavy flak. We were not concerned with night fighters and we successfully took evasive action when the rear gunner reported the Junkers 88 on our tail but it was out of range. The searchlights were plentiful as we approached Nuremberg but not too troublesome except to the extent that it made our silhouettes more easily seen. At 21:24 hours we were just short of the target and contemplating our bombing run although our bomb bays were not yet open. Without any warning we were attacked from underneath and set on fire in the centre section flames and choking smoke funnel, funnelling forward to the cockpit. I had no intercom response from the crew. Almost immediately I, the Lanc went out of control and into a steep dive and I am convinced some part of it must have fallen off or a control linkage severed. Having regard to the nature of our bomb load I still cannot understand why we did not explode as it appeared to me that the incendiaries were on fire. Immediately I gave instructions to bale out, not knowing if my order was received but mid upper gunner and wireless operator were presumably either injured or prevented by the fire from escaping. The bomb aimer and rear gunner were captured on landing about thirty miles from the crash site. The flight engineer did not survive and I can only assume that after he jumped he was caught up by some sort, part of the aircraft which was in a very steep dive. The parachute of the navigator failed to open and he was buried in the neighbouring village of Burgoberbach. For my part I must have been no more than a few hundred feet up when I baled out. I saw the Lanc explode on the ground just below me and within seconds I landed about three hundred yards from the burning aircraft. A compound fracture of the right leg resulted in a series of bone graft operations in various RAF hospitals for the next, for the next three years and I was eventually invalided out of the Air Force at the end of 1948. The exceptionally large losses that night I think could be attributed to the fact that the German night fighters were able to penetrate the bomber stream at an early stage and on a clear night. From Stuttgart onwards we were very vulnerable. Nuremburg was always a hot target.
DM. Ok so you you you parachuted, you managed to escape the aircraft, you baled out, you landed near to the aircraft, it was obviously night. What what happened after that once you were on the ground. Did you hide, you were injured clearly so you weren’t very mobile.
JC. It wasn’t a question of hiding, it was a question of, I fell in a pine forest and the trees were very close together. Looking at it from as you parachuted down it looked like a pin cushion that you were going to fall into which I did fall into it and my leg, I could see that as I parachuting down my right leg was bleeding and that and my boots had come off both, both boots had come off and it was my fault because I hadn’t got the straps tied sufficiently tightly around them. So that was a mistake on my part but I, when I landed and crashed through the trees, there was no way which I could avoid crashing through the trees. I was there with a, with a shell wound in my leg, no boots on at all, my feet were absolutely bare and I was lying at the bottom of a pine tree in the middle of the forest. I thought my chances of escape from there were pretty limited. After that I didn’t know, I couldn’t do anything for myself, I couldn’t my leg was busted, broken completely with a shell wound and I was, I thought that was going to be my end because there was no way I could attract attention of anyone being in the middle of a forest. It was the next morning probably about six o clock or six thirty in the morning when it was just daylight I could see just through the trees the silhouette of an old lady who was gathering firewood. The Germans were very short of any sort of fuel and she was obviously thinking about her fires at home and gathering firewood. Well I, I hailed her through the trees and she didn’t see me initially because the trees were so closely together but then she did see me and she scuttled off. Well I thought at least somebody knows I am here. Then I was waiting then, I could only wait to see what happened. There was no way I could move with my leg as it was, no shoes, there was no way of escaping and I just had to trust to the Lord for my future. Well after about an hour I saw a soldier coming through the trees towards me. He was a very well dressed soldier and he was part of the, we were to call it the Home Guard in our country but had a much, much more military style about him and he had two guns in his belt but he came, he didn’t take the guns out of his belt or anything like that, he saw that I was helpless lying at the bottom of this tree and he looked at me and then indicated that he would come back. Well he went away and I didn’t know how long it was but an hour or two later he came back again and this time hauled me to the side of the forest that we were in and he had a hay cart there. Well, and he helped me onto this hay cart and started trotting away back towards the village. On the way back he, he also picked up the body of my navigator who was dead and I notice that the navigator had no parachute and I can only assume that he had not attached properly his parachute when he clipped it on, leaving the aircraft. I saw him leave the aircraft and I thought he’d got the parachute with him then but obviously somehow or other he he lost it on the way out. So I am afraid he was dead and they put him on the side, on the straw in this hay cart that I was on alongside me and trotted into the neighbouring village of Burgoberbach.
DM. Where did you go from there, what happened after that?
JC. Well after I got there of course they were very hostile, the local inhabitants and they continued to shout the name of Dresden to me quite frequently. I couldn’t do anything by way of response except look a little bit contrite and they took my, the body of my navigator off the hay cart and decided that the local hospital where they took me wasn’t appropriate for my particular wound which was quite serious, they couldn’t deal with me and so they transferred me to a pony and trap, put me on this trap and the same soldier who had picked me up out of the forest drove me about probably four or five miles to a German hospital and left me there. There is no doubt about it they were pretty hostile towards me and I wasn’t in a position to do much arguing with them.
DM. Was the hospital you ended up in, was it a military hospital or a civil hospital?
JC. It was a German, it was a military hospital, it was housed entirely with German soldiers and a place called Troisdorf and they, they received me there and they took me into the operating theatre, they looked at the leg and they put a plaster cast, plaster cast on it and they left a hole in the side of the plaster cast where the shell had gone in so they could treat that. In fact it, it was a good idea but it didn’t really work because of the leg didn’t improve. They weren’t antagonistic towards me in the hospital they were I thought reasonably, not friendly that would be stretching it too much, but they tolerated me and put me in a ward of soldiers. There were forty in the ward the beds were so closely packed, they were all injured German soldiers except me. There was a gap between each bed of no more than six, eighteen inches just enough so the doctor could come round between each bed but they were very, very, very closely parked the beds in the hospital. They I wasn’t treated badly, they didn’t give me a very warm reception. The soldiers in the ward strangely enough were not antagonistic. They were in the same boat as I was, they were all injured and I received a daily visit from the doctor, he couldn’t do anything because they probably got more important things to do. I was there for some weeks in the hospital hoping that one day the Americans would come along and release me.
DM. Did you receive any information as to what was going on in the war, did you manage to glean anything when you were there?
JC. The only, no, I had a, I was concerned that nobody knew where I was and furthermore the Red Cross weren’t aware of where I was so I couldn’t be reported as a prisoner of war. I was concerned my parents back home would assume that I had been killed because the Red Cross were normally pretty good within twenty four hours or so indicating that either members alive or he wasn’t. And there was no way in which I could ask the Germans to do anything for me in that regard no I felt very lonely and I was more concerned about my parents at home must be believing I had been killed and I wasn’t able to communicate with them and that happened, that applied for quite some weeks afterwards, so I was very sorry about that.
DM. Did, did you get a chance to write a letter before, before you left to your parents or you never had a chance to communicate with them?
JC. Oh there was no way at all, there was no question of writing letters it was a question of surviving really and this was on my mind the whole time that my parents would believe that I was dead because normally when one was shot down they went to a prisoner of war camp. The Red Cross would immediately take action to ensure the parents was advised that the son was still alive at least and in a prisoner of war camp. And of course the food in a prisoner of war camp would have been better than we were getting in the hospital. Our meals were very very sparse, mind all the German soldiers were getting the same food as I was. But we used to live on sort of a very watery soup if I remember and I lost quite a bit of weight there, yeah.
DM. When did you come to leave the hospital what happened?
JC. Well, I think it must have been about six weeks or so that I was there before the Germans, before the Americans came in.
DM. So was the hospital evacuated or ?
JC. Well they were on the brink of it and there was a lot of disturbance and I wasn’t quite clear what was going to happen. Certainly there was a lot of activity at the local railway station and I suspected that they, the patients were going to be evacuated, but on the other hand there wasn’t much sense in evacuating the only way they could go was further into Germany and into that part of Germany and the Americans were going to follow them anyway, so there wasn’t much point in it. So in the end I waited until I could hear the guns coming of the Americans I could hear them in the distance a couple of days before they actually arrived. They were approaching at about fifteen miles a day and when they got to the hospital they were, they had a man come, I managed to contact them. The hospital wasn’t evacuated and the Americans were not delighted to see me, I was just a nuisance to them. I got my leg in a full length plaster, they didn’t know what to do with me, but the only thing they could do was take me along with them. And I went along [laugh] with General Paton [laugh] and his officers for quite some days but I was going in the wrong direction, they were approaching at about fifteen miles a day into Germany and I was going the wrong way with them, but my main concern was still that I couldn’t get a message to my parents. I couldn’t ask couldn’t ask the Germans to do anything, they weren’t interested and General Paton was too busy with his troops and not of, not of an inclined nature to be helpful. It was interesting to see how they were progressing, they would do about fifteen miles a day and they would go through three of four villages during that time and there was no resistance of any substance at all for them they were just rumbling through. They would ring up the next village and say ‘we want to see the white sheets coming out of the windows by way of surrender otherwise we will come in shooting’. In no time at all you could see the white, look at the next village, and the sheets were coming out of the bedroom windows and they had pretty well a free run. But they had bypassed so many Germans on the way through and this is why they couldn’t do anything with me, they couldn’t send me back by ambulance. So many Germans had been by passed and there was still a great danger, well nuisance anyway, but General Paton was only anxious to, plough on through, through that part of Germany and he had no, virtually no opposition at all. We went, they always used to choose the best building in the village that they were going to stop in that night and kick anybody out if they were, if they were residing there and make that the Officers Mess. Every now and again they would pick up a village halls one night we stayed in a school the village school and I was interested to walk round the school. I thought whilst I was there I might as well walk round the classrooms and I was, it was very interesting to see that their style of education was obviously very much similar to ours. On one occasion I saw that there was a map on the wall and it was the south coast of England and the north coast of Europe there the English Channel between them, but I notice they called that the German Channel. I thought this was a bit off side, [laugh] I thought it was the English Channel but no it was the German Channel, never mind.
DM. How did you eventually come to leave General Paton’s army.
JC. Well eventually they began to get the Germans cleared behind them so that it made it, it made it possible to bring ambulances forward and eventually I, I was put in an ambulance together with about six of their own soldiers that were injured and brought back. I was about a fortnight day by day moving backwards from one medical station to another, Russian, American medical stations to another and I saw some. The Americans were treating the German injured as well as their own. I remember on one occasion there was a nurse giving a blood drip to an American to a German soldier and he was, he was in agony, crying out and she slapped him across the face and she said ‘shut up will you’ she said, ‘you should be grateful to get good American blood’ [laugh]. Anyway eventually I, I got back by ambulance to Rheims, “did I tell you this?”
DM. “No you didn’t.”
JC. Went there, Rheims where there was a very big American camp and these chaps were being sent back to England to go on to America the war was over as far, they weren’t, they were just American soldiers, they were surplus to requirements then in France and I was the only Englishman in this camp there must have been a thousand American troops there. Very basic. They were living in tents in the middle of Rheims and from there they were flying them back to England, the Americans were flying their own troops back to England and I, I eventually came back with them. On one occasion I looked along the line and I saw outside one tent a table, it was a big tent a table was displaying lots of little parcels on it. There was a master sergeant there sitting by this table and these, the soldiers were lined up receiving one of these little parcels and I so said to one of them ‘what are they queuing for?’ and he said ‘they are queuing to get their Purple Hearts.’ So I said ‘oh yes so I will try and get a Purple Heart’. I was the only Englishman in the camp it was all various Americans. So [laughs] I went, I got in the queue they were lined up and signing and taking their Purple Heart away and I, when I got there the master sergeant looked me up and down and said ‘what outfit are you in?’ you see and I said I was in the Royal Air Force and he said ‘well I shall have to see the colonel about you’ “I said, ‘don’t bother’ [laughs] and passed on. I didn’t get my Purple Heart.
DM. So did you fly home from Rheims?
JC. Yes they, I was the only Englishman on the flight it was especially for the Americans really they all, the pilot asked me to go and sit with him in the cockpit so that I could see the White Cliffs of Dover as we came over. We landed at an aerodrome in the south of England its name just escapes me, but I was there for a fortnight and it was only there that I could arrange for a phone call to made to my parents to say I have landed in England and that was a happy release for me. Then I went from there to Cosford near Wolverhampton which was the general reception area of all RAF prisoners of war as they came back. Whether they were injured or whether they didn’t, they went there. The prisoners of war went to Cosford where they had an absolutely marvellous organisation. These chaps came back like I did with ragged clothes, and that sort of thing, and they were fitted out with new uniforms. If they got brevets to put on their uniforms they were put on, and if, they were fitted up with new boots, fully fitted up and after a medical examination they were sent off home, to their homes which they were anxious to get to of course but as far as I was concerned I went and there was no way they could get me home immediately but I was there for about a fortnight being looked, having my leg looked after, put in another splint and then they did allow me to go home. There were some very good natured people about at that time who were prepared to drive these ex prisoners of war from Cosford Hospital to their homes where ever their homes may be. I was in Lincolnshire, my home was in Lincolnshire a long way from the hospital but some kind chap drove me all the way there all the way home. And he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t stay, with my parents to have a chat with or anything, he said ‘I must now turn round and go back’ and he went all the way back to Wolverhampton very nice of him. But I suppose that in those days there was rationing of petrol but these people who were prepared to do this, the transfer to patients back home to their homes obviously got a special allowance of petrol to do that. Yes, that was pretty much the end of my story.
DM. You didn’t stay on in the Air Force after the war?
JC. I stayed on for three and a half years not because I wanted to but because my leg, was needed treatment and, I was in hospital, Cosford Hospital for two years with various operations on my leg. I had bone grafts and that sort of things the first ones wouldn’t, wouldn’t heal l so I had new ones and it was a very long winded job. And then they sent me or allowed me to go to an RAF Regiment camp near my home in Lincolnshire where I was assistant administrating officer or something like that not having to do any work but it was a place to put me whilst my leg was continuing to heal. Anyway it was three and a half years before I actually left the Air Force. Meanwhile they paid me all the time which was good of them, in the Officers Mess.
DM. Did you go back into banking?
JC. Yes I went back into banking, first of all I went to the Lincoln branch of the bank. I couldn’t accept any pay from them because I was getting Air Force pay, so I was working for nothing but as far as I was concerned I was getting back into my line of business. From then on I, I took up various appointments in the bank I went to Northamptonshire, I went to Birmingham, I went to Coventry and different branches each time receiving a bit of an uplift in by way of promotion, eventually I, I, I managed a big branch in Birmingham and then I went to London and I was reluctant to go back to London because I was so happy in Birmingham. We lived in a nice house and got well settled but I had to go back to London. When I got there I objected in a mild manner, I know I agreed to the move, but they said be patient and within six months they had made me Manager of the largest branch in the bank in Threadneedle Street which was a surprise to me and obviously they had moved me around with this in mind from Birmingham. But I was there for about five years and then was eventually made a General Manager of the bank from which I retired.
DM. Did you keep in touch with colleagues from the war?
JC. No, well my Canadian bomb aimer he, he went back to Canada, I lost touch with him. The remainder, of course I lost four of the crew for one reason and another and the Belgian he went back he went straight back to Belgium he didn’t come back to England before going home, I don’t blame him either he went straight back home. So I,I didn’t have any more contact. I did have a lot of contact with the Germans afterwards at various reunions and entirely different.
DM. That’s the Germans that shot you down basically?
JC. Oh yes, I met them, they turned out to be quite nice chaps really, yes there we are. They visited me in England, came over and had a holiday then they went on to Ireland to extend the holiday a little bit and I took them round the RAF Museum. They wanted to look inside the Lancaster but they wouldn’t open, they wouldn’t allow them to open the door.
DM. That was mean.
JC. [laugh] So that is more or less the end of my story.
DM. Do have any thoughts, opinions about how Bomber Command were treated after the war. About the public reaction or lack of recognition?
JC. It didn’t unduly concern me but I, I agree that they did justify rather more publicity than they got publicity of a favourable nature, but that’s the way it is they weren’t, I don’t think people understood for a long time just the percentage of losses which were really incurred it seemed to be about one in two that were likely to not survive. No I didn’t get worked up about it, it was one of those things. Now of course some attention is being paid to that remission, yeah.
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ACoxJ160321
PCoxJ1606
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Interview with John Cox
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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01:08:49 audio recording
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David Meanwell
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2016-03-21
Description
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John Cox grew up in Lincolnshire and worked in banking before he joined the Royal Air Force. After training as a pilot in the United States, he served as an instructor for almost three years. He flew 20 operations as a pilot with 626 Squadron,from RAF Wickenby, before his aircraft was shot down and he became a prisoner of war. He was repatriated from a German military hospital by American forces and returned to England. Spending two years in hospital at RAF Cosford, he received treatment and bone grafts to his leg. After the war he returned to banking.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
United States
England--Lincolnshire
England--Shropshire
Alabama
Georgia
Texas
France
France--Reims
Germany--Troisdorf
Temporal Coverage
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1945
Contributor
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Hugh Donnelly
Carolyn Emery
626 Squadron
Absent Without Leave
African heritage
aircrew
bale out
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
crewing up
final resting place
Halifax
Ju 88
Lancaster
Oxford
pilot
prisoner of war
RAF Cosford
RAF Wickenby
Red Cross
searchlight
shot down
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/237/3381/PCooperJ1602.1.jpg
6f8734ad672efbc8cddbda087ea8bff8
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/237/3381/ACooperJ160727.2.mp3
edac21553fa5ecd239dc7b655036871d
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Title
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Cooper, John
John Cooper
J Cooper
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with John Cooper (b. 1924, 1827988 Royal Air Force).
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-27
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Cooper, J
Transcribed audio recording
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DM.This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre the interviewer is David Meanwell the interviewee is John Cooper. The interview is taking place at Mr Coopers home in Sandhurst in Berkshire on the twenty seventh of July 2016. Now John perhaps you could tell me a little about where you were born and your early life.
JC. Alright well, I was born at Sheringham and I lived there for ten years and then we moved to Aylsham just half way between Sheringham and Norfolk and when I left the Grammar School at North Walsham I went into the bank for about a year and eh by that time eh the war was on and I went up to Norwich and volunteered for Aircrew and they put me eh down as under training, PNB which is Pilot, Navigator, Bomb Aimer and eh I think about nine months later I eh think it was I was, I was called, I went into the Air Force in October 1943. I did my eh Initial Training Wing at Aberystwyth and I then went to eh Cliffe Pypard to do my grading school and if I can remember rightly I was one out of eight I think it was out of the fifty who were told we were going for Pilot training. Eh a lot of the eh others went as Bomb Aimers because with the bigger aeroplanes coming in there was quite a demand for them. I had to wait quite a long time before anything turned up, I was at Heaton Park at Manchester, the Aircrew Reception Centre for roughly nine months, waiting around to go to the next stage of training but eventually to my delight I went up to Greenock where we went on the Queen Mary and off we went to eh New York. From New York we then went on a train up to New Brunswick in Canada and eh to be kitted out because we found we were going to a flying school at Miami, we thought marvellous. Miami nice warm sunshine, lots of girls marvellous, but it was Miami, Oklahoma right in the middle of America as far from the sea as you could possibly get in any direction and eh anyway we spent about four days on the train going to Miami and eh that was to Number Three British Flying Training School. It was so hot, it really was but it was really nice. Our course, our school had eh PT19 Cornells as a primary trainer, all the others had eh Steermans but our school had, had PT19s. We did about seventy or eighty hours on those and then eh we started on the Harvard and eh almost near the end of the Harvard course the eh the Atom Bombs had been dropped on Japan and suddenly without warning the school closed. We had about ten hours to go I think to eh, we done some of the flying tests, we had done some of the wings exams. We were about an ace from graduating and the Americans said, “what a pity that we got to stop, couldn’t we just carry on those few extra days?” but no we couldn’t. So we were very downhearted about that and eventually we went back to New York by train, had about a weeks leave there and came home on the Aquitania back to the UK. We landed at Southampton and we went up to Morecambe which was a holding unit and nobody really seemed to know what to do with us and eh [unreadable] we were sent to and eh that was a hive of activity with thousands of redundant aircrew and us as well and cadets who hadn’t graduated. We had to wait around there for weeks and weeks and weeks and we were given the choice of signing on for three years in the Air Force and finishing our training if we wanted to do that or probably waiting for a couple of years for our demob number to come up. So I opted to stay in the Air Force and went to Church Lawford eventually and eh joined a course half way through because we had already done a couple of hundred hours flying you see, and eh so we graduated from there. Having done that we still had to wait around for the next op, because at that time with all the redundancies and this that and the other the Air Force wasn’t sure what to do with all those people. But eventually I went to Finningley to eh a Wellington School and did a course on the, on the Wellington. And eh by this time it was nineteen eh, oh I can’t remember oh about nineteen forty seven I suppose. From there I went to Lindholme to eh the OCU Lancaster OCU and eh and trained on the Lancaster which was lovely getting my hands on, it really was. Having done that I was eh posted to 101 Squadron at Binbrook, they didn’t have the Lancaster they got rid of theirs and they got the Lincoln which of course was the bigger version as you probably know. The engines were bigger, the wing span was about twenty foot bigger altogether a bigger aeroplane but it was much the same inside. And then so I, I started out I was a Sergeant Pilot then and eh. The crewing up at Lindholme, just going back a bit, the way of doing it, we were just shoved in a room with assorted eh categories and told to sort yourself out into a Crew. Which eventually we did and eh, and eh Binbrook here we come “I will just stop for a minute.” I joined 101 Squadron at Binbrook in nineteen forty eight incredibly over five years since I first joined the Air Force. About four and a half years since I joined ACRC. No fault of mine then eh, but we operated just as it had been during the war going round Europe, lots of practise bombing, we used to go to Helgoland to drop my bombs and eh and cross countries. Sort of things we did, I remember one day we, we did a long cross country over, into the North Atlantic and we decided to make Rockall our target, you know that tiny little island in the middle of nowhere and we got there. It is the tip of a volcano I think and eh I flew around the thing and I couldn’t believe it my Navigator didn’t even come out and have a look at it. I just couldn’t understand that, it’s strange really. But eh we went to Egypt in October of eh, of eh that year to Shallufa for a months training. During that visit I was one of a pair that flew down to Khartoum for a couple of nights, so I dropped my first four thousand pound Cookie part of a ten thousand pound bomb load on the range which I think woke the whole city up really. Coming back again I, I, we landed at Castleton Heath there the same as we had done going out to there and I had to land at Isteris near Marseilles with and engine snag and I was there for about four days before coming back to Lyneham. I happen to, to the customs as we were going back to Binbrook on November the Fifth fireworks night. So I took the liberty of going back to Binbrook at fairly low level watching all the fireworks on the way up. In November the Squadron was given a new task on top of everything else, the Bomber Command Meteorological Flight it meant all out aircraft had to have special instruments fitted plus an additional crew member, a Met Observer, he was usually a retrained a redundant Pilot and we eh had about twelve special routes around the British Isles, mainly over the Atlantic, South West approaches to gather met data to be transmitted to the, to the Air Ministry. I did the first one the Squadron was called on to do, it meant being called at Oh five hundred hours and me getting in touch. I was still a Sergeant Pilot and I had to contact One Group to be briefed on the days route and then with the Navigator and Met Observer getting everything organised for a take off at eight o clock on the dot we made a game of that, on the dot. The first one was out over the Atlantic, heights varied from a hundred feet to eighteen thousand feet, doing box climbs and descents. The second one I did on the eighth of December nineteen forty eight was a bit more interesting. As usual eight o clock take off from Binbrook but just off Hartland Point the port engine, port inner engine which meant a return to base at Binbrook. I was a bit cross when I was told I would have to take the reserve aircraft, instead of the relief crew who of course hadn’t been briefed but orders are orders as they say, so of we went and eh and we spent about thirteen hours in the air that day. At least the whole crew and I got a special commendation for that from the AOC of Number One Group. Em they were called Pamper those eh, those weather flights, I, I flew twenty one of them all together by the time we had them. They made life interesting in a way because they were often flown through really lousey weather regardless having got airbourne at eight o clock having, without having any idea where you might finish up on the day and eh and sometimes we were the only aircraft in the Air Force airborne as far as we could make out, apart from the other met flight place, in Northern Ireland, what do you call it, I forget what it is called now eh. On my fifteenth Pamper there was a special for the next day because eh a couple of the Squadrons were going out to Egypt for some sort of exercise. We had to go into the Bay of Biscay to check up on, on the weather and eh we had a lightning strike climbing up through the innocuous little cloud. There was a great big bang which blew an enormous hole in one wing tip and also blew the radios including the intercom and the Wireless Op was transmitting directly to the Air Ministry at the time. I suppose he is lucky not to have been hurt when the trailing aerial blew. When we wound it in there was only about twelve feet out of two hundred and fifty feet of it left. Anyway eh I diverted into Bordeaux it was a bit of an excuse to go into France you know and we went in I went in there, not on the radio two hours later and so I taxied in. [Pause] Right well eh I think I said I had passed it all to the UK. Apparently a general alert had been put out because of the abrupt stoppage of the message due to the lightning strike. We were able to get the aircraft fixed overnight. There were half a dozen French Navy Lancasters there and they had common equipment with us even one of two [unreadable] radio crystals. I eh paid Heligoland for night position nineteen fortynine[unreadable] to drop maybe five hundred pound bombs plus incendiary clusters and we also started doing quite a bit of formation flying that mid summer. I used to fly in the number three position that’s on the left hand side of the Leader. To [unreadable] Newcastle, the daily express joke, Gatwick, the AOCs departure, Birmingham, Battle of Britain fly past and eh that was the day we did a low level beat up of twenty one airfields that day, that was really hard, hard work. Really tight over the airfield and open up a little bit, just have a slight rest and get in tight again. I got a lovely photograph that I can show you over Odiham that day. My Brother saw it on the Aldershot News and then he wrote to them and they sent that for a couple of coppers which was really nice. A week later something quite nasty happened. I was one of about thirty Lincolns approaching Newark Power Station on a, on a night exercise when two of them in front of me collided and eh they sort of burst into flames and crashed with no survivors at all and I and several others switched on our navigation lights and suddenly the sky was ablaze with lights. They all switched off, I think it probably felt safer in the dark I, I had the job of taking some camera men around to take some air to ground photographs the next day of the crash site, not very nice. Eh in December nineteen forty nine the World was changing. Our aircraft used for Pamper flights were fitted with lots of filters on the nose and on the fourth of December I was called to do a series of special Pampers. The aircraft were fitted with two four hundred gallon tanks in the bomb bay giving a total fuel capacity of four thousand four hundred gallons. My brief was to fly as far North as possible before turning back, nobody told me why at the time. I found out much later it was thought that the Russians had exploded an Atomic Bomb and that was the reason for the filters. So much for my family prospects. [laugh]. That Sunday morning again at eight o clock I roared across the hangers and domestic site at very low level just to wake everybody up as we flew away and off we went. The target was Jan Mayen Island the one above the Arctic Circle. The fuel was measured carefully on the way North to ensure that there would always be enough to get back to base. We saw Jan Mayen below us visually and on the H2S Radar so the plotted winds must have been ok and could be used on the way home. Also there was enough fuel in the aircraft, there was a good reserve of margin. It was decided to route via the Faroes on the way back, it was marginally further, they would provide a good check point. About one hours from starting south what appeared to be a coast line showed on the H2S on the starboard side which I thought was rather odd. Then after about an other hour what looked like heavy clouds from a distance began to look like mountains which indeed they were. They were certainly not the Faroes because I had seen them on earlier Pampers and we realised later on that the coastline had been the edge of the Greenland Ice Cap. Using Consul help to navigate was not good because due to an oxygen lack I was down to about ten thousand feed and the Wop could not raise any stations as we were in some sort of a radio mush. I thought it was Iceland and tried calling Reykyavick on 121.5 the Emergency Frequency but to no avail. I told the Navigator that I was turning onto a South Easterly heading, if it was Iceland we would be heading roughly towards Scotland, if not then who knows. Roughly one hour later we crossed a coastland from land to sea, which suggested Iceland. By this time the two bomb bay tanks had long been used up. My Flight Engineer was monitoring the fuel and getting the revs down as far as he dared to maximise our range and the airspeed lowered by about thirty knots. At last the Wop managed to contact Number One Group, told them of our plight and they arranged for the Royal Naval Air Station at Lossiemouth to open up especially for us. That is if we could reach them because it was a Sunday as I had previously said. We crossed into North West Scotland on a lovely clear night by then but we were all freezing cold having sat in temperatures of around minus forty degrees, minus forty centigrade is not the same as minus forty Fahrenheit so that was about seventy two degrees of frost at least. I did manage to land at Lossiemouth after two attempts in a heavy snow shower and fourteen hours in the air. When the aircraft was checked the next day before refuelling, the form seven hundred the aircraft log, said no measurable fuel in the aircraft. Back at Binbrook the next day the Wingco flying Hamish Mahaddie talked to me about it and the Nav section went into a big hudle and came to the conclusion that we must have run into a Jetstream which in those days nobody heard very much of. Anyway five days later I did another one and turned round at the Faroes because eh we didn’t have to go so far. I diverted into Middleton St George on that. On the sixteenth another one returned from fifty seven north having jettisoned six hundred gallons of fuel. The final twenty first Pamper to the Faroes and back on the twentieth of December. I certainly had my share of cold weather operations and the forth of December nineteen forty nine as certainly a day for me to remember ever more. Anyway I went from a freezing December to a red hot February nineteen fifty I spent that month again in Shallufa, Egypt staging both there and back by Castle Benetto, did a lot of fighter affil and air to air gunnery. Some air to ground gunnery, very low level and dropped some five hundred pound bombs on the target we had at Habbaniya, Iraq and back to the UK. It was the same old routine apart from a lot of formation flying fly past at Woodford, Number One Group Headquarters over Bawtry. The Kings birthday flypast over Buckingham Palace on the eighth of June. My very last time flying a Lincoln in the leading vic of sixty aircraft over Farnborough for the RAF display on the seventh of July. All together I flew eight hundred and eighty hours on Lancs and Lincolns but eh I was pleased to finish on a high note. Mind you not only was it was announced in the London Gazette that I had been awarded the Air Force Medal but I was also on my way to the OCTU at Kirton Lindsey so eh, and I was commissioned on my twenty first birthday which caused a lot of who, ha when filling in forms, “you put the same date, have you done it right?”[laugh]. I had applied to go to the Central Flying School on an Instructors course but after OCTU I was posted to Marham to the B29 they called them the Washington in the RAF but two weeks into the intensive Ground School came a big dilemma for me. The chance to go to CFS came up and I was given twenty four hours to decide. I plumped for CFS I was posted to Oakington in Cambridgeshire about twenty hours refresher flying on the Harvard and started on the CFS course at Little Rissington on the twenty eighth of December although the snow was thick on the ground. A really intensive course especially the class room theory and once or twice I thought have I done the right thing having given up the B29 for this. I flew about ninety hours just learning to be an Instructor, quite a lot of that time with a fellow student practicing the patter. There were thirty of us on the course I was pleased to finish with five others, I think it was five with a B1 category. The rest passed out with a B2 and I was posted to 3 FTS in Norfolk and eh so I went up there in a lovely old white SS Jaguar with another guy who was posted there. I left my motor bike at, at, at Rissie at CFS and went back for it later. It was quite nice to be back in our home county again but it turned out I did do the right thing because a young WAAF Officer turned up in the Mess one day and mine were two of many eyes that followed her round the room. Em We got married actually on the eighteenth of March nineteen fifty three and we lived in a caravan near Methwold our satellite airfield, there were no married quarters for newly weds. And eh the flying was quite intense, there were four students at the beginning of each course and before going solo on the Harvard each student has to do four periods of stalling and spinning apart from general handling and circuits and bumps which meant for me at least forty, four forty five minutes sorties each day for the first two or three weeks. But eh this gradually changed, the students went solo, you know sort of fifty fifty and eh that went on for about five months I suppose. Formation flying, instrument flying, aerobatics, low flying, gunnery, night flying, you name it we did it. And em after five months it all started again with a new course and eh there was occasionally the odd diversion. RAF Lakenheath eh was only five miles from Feltwell. I once, I remember when the eh large American eh B36s were there. I had the chance to low down, low run down the runway out of a GCA approach and eh and have a really good look at them really.
DM. Did you have any frightening moments with your students, did they ever put the wind up you?
JC. I suppose one or two things but you never really thought anything of it really, yes. With a student you had to let them correct their mistakes if they possibly could. It’s no good grabbing it and doing, sometimes if they were having a job getting out of the spin or something like that you had to stick it as long as you could, telling them or encouraging them to get out of the, but you had to watch it like a hawk. It was really interesting I really enjoyed that, yeah. I used to take my wife sometimes in the Harvard she was, she was in the WAAF of course. In formation flying she used to sometimes come along in. in the back, yeah. I did, what? about eleven hundred hours in the couple of years I was at Feltwell. Em eight hundred and eighty of them amazing same figure as the earlier one isn’t it, but it is right, eight hundred and eighty of instructional hours and I was upgraded to an A2 Category. Towards the end of my time there I didn’t have eh so many students of my own, I often had to do a lot of check rides on them. Often we were washing them out and I didn’t like having to do that very much. You know it, it’s I know it sounds daft but it is a bit upsetting in a way to, to see these lads suddenly to be told they are scrubbed. Anyway in August nineteen fifty three I was posted to eh Number 6 FTS eh at Tern Hill in Shropshire to start the very first course on the, the eh Piston Provost which was of course our new side by side trainer. Eh, before collecting our new aeroplanes from the Percival Factory at Luton which was a grass airfield in those days. I spent the first month on the Harvard helping to acclimatise newly graduated Pilots from Canada which is the English way of operating in particular coping with our weather. I should have heeded my own words because one day four of us were taken by Harvard to Luton to collect our brand new Provosts. We were all quite experienced, there was quite a bit of flying between us. A cold front was coming down the Country which we had to fly through going back to Tern Hill. All four aircraft were non radio, ‘cause they didn’t have the right crystals but we all wanted to get back so we set off in a loose gaggle and then we the rain and boy oh boy was it heavy. Everything sort of disappeared, the ground, the other aeroplanes you know. Nobody could talk to us, we were non radio and so I found the A5 I think it was, it may have been the A6 below me showing up, quite low really. I stuck over the road, at least there were no tall masts or whatever over the middle of the road and about, I don’t know, twenty minutes later we flew out of the, out of the rain and you could see for thousands of miles. A beautiful, I looked round for the other guys and we jiggle around one or two sort of in different positions from what we had been in. Anyway we all, all got back to Tern Hill and when we got on the ground we all looked at each other and thought “silly beggars,” you know. But there was nothing, all married you know and it was one of those silly things I thought “fools really” but em, but em. There used to be an article in the Aeroplane called I learned about flying from that and eh. It may have been in Flight magazine I can’t remember and that episode would have been my contribution really. Anyway doing my time at Tern Hill I managed to get a month at 12 FTS Weston [unreadable] to fly the Meteor for about fourteen hours which was quite nice and eh going in that up to about sort of forty thousand feet and that was quite a different world really, it was great fun. Then em I volunteered for something, they wanted a Flight Commander at 61 Group Con Flight at Kenley. You had to be a Flight Lieutenant, an A2 Instructor, a front rating examiner and I filled the bill on all three counts and there was I only got about six months left before joining the RAF, before leaving the RAF. I applied and was accepted. The Flight had three Ansons two Oxfords, three Austers, six Chipmunks and the Anson 12s, mainly for flying ATC Cadets around and the Anson 19 was for the AOC to be ferried around in. The Austers were for instrument checks on young Army Officers for the fairly new Army Air Corps in these days of course.The Chipmunks were for the use of mainly Senior Officers at Air Ministry to keep their currency to do Instrument Ratings with me. I was able to fly all over the country including one trip to Balne near Cologne in Germany in the Anson. My first instrument rating test technically was on Air Vice Marshall Mclvoy he practised on the Anson for a week, did a good test and eh, not like some of the Air Ministry Bods who just want to come and have a little go. And eh But eh all things, all good things come to an end I left the RAF in nineteen fifty five to start a new career having flown roughly three thousand hours. “I’m taking a lot from this of course but cutting a lot out.” Right I became an Air Traffic Control Officer in eh nineteen fifty six with a lengthy course at the Air Training College at Hurn Airport. I served initially at Croydon and then at Black Bush and eh, well in those days all, all your ATCOs Civil Air ATCOs were all Pilots or eh Navigators and sort of working with kindred spirits which was quite nice. After a year I was posted to the Southern Air Traffic Centre on the North Side of Heathrow and after a three year gap I got airbourne again in the jump seat of a Viscount to Copenhagen and to also one in Paris. I did a Radar course at Hurn, I em also got a Cockpit flight in a DC6 from Blackbush and a chance to fly the Decca Navigator from Croydon and also on their Ambassador from Heathrow on a Decca Demo flight. I spent another twenty five years as an ATCO at eh Southern Centre at Heathrow and later at West Drayton and during that time I flew in the cockpit of many different types of airliner. Different airlines all over Europe and the Middle East visiting other Air Traffic agencies including a cockpit ride in a Trans World 747 to eh, to Long Island, New York to the Air Traffic Centre there which was nice. I also had a supersonic flight in Concorde as it was being worked by the RAF up to fifty five thousand feet and Mach 2.2 over the North Sea and down to land on the inaugural Edinburgh Shuttle, super Shuttle and I just had to pay a normal fare for that, fifty five pounds I think it was. [laugh]. Another rather special flight in nineteen seventy seven I was in a Sandringham Flying Boat from Calshot and the Captain of that with reputed forty thousand flying hours, was named Blair, he was the husband em of the film actress Maureen O’Hara. He was later killed in one of his own aeroplanes, a Goose crash landed in the sea and had an engine failure. I can’t remember when it was, but all of the passengers survived that and he was killed yeah a bit unfortunate. But anyway in nineteen sixty two when the trial of the air experience flights were performed by the RAF I applied to join but it was far too late because most of the Auxiliary Air Force guys had switched over when that was closed down. 6 AEF at White Waltham had a waiting list of fifty odd people and I was told that my only real chance to fly was as supernumary pilot if I was commissioned in the RAF VR Training Branch. So I joined the local Air Training Corp at Camberley as a Civilian Instructor and after about two years a vacancy arose and I was commissioned as a Flying Officer in the eh the VR Training Branch. That was amusing I had to be interviewed by the eh girl out of the Camberley Council to see if I was a suitable chap to be commissioned in the VR having been commissioned, so I thought that was rather amusing having been commissioned. Anyway em the day after my commission came through In fact the next day I was knocking on the door of 6 AEF COs Office again and I was accepted and began flying in a Chipmunk usually two hour sorties with four cadets and I had the best of both worlds of course, a job I liked and eh being able to fly the cadets at weekends and CCF cadets on weekdays more or less. Little did I know, did I put that I would be flying them around till nineteen eighty nine, nineteen eighty nine. I usually did an Eastern and Summer Camp at various RAF Stations and often managed to get my hands on various other types usually jets and some helicopters. My very first supersonic flight before Concord was in a two seat Hunter T7 and at Brawdy one of my ex students from Feltwell was CO of the Hawk Squadron so that was really good for me. 6 AEF moved to Abingdon in September nineteen seventy three, I did a Summer Camp at Odiham in the summer of nineteen seventy four and running it was an old chum of mine from my course at Miami Oklahoma he was a Squadron Leader then he was the boss of No 2 AEF at Hamble and he suggested I would move, I would like to move there em, despite it being a much longer journey I, I did so after another camp at West Raynham where, where incidentally I flew in a Canberra in a low level exercise over the North Sea, we just missed eh a Luftwaffe Phantom [laugh] after about a fortnight at Hamble I was made deputy Flight Commander which meant I was paid as a Flight Lieutenant which was good em. We used to go and fly the cadets at Herne, Goodwood, Lea on Sollent, Benbridge and Sandown on the Isle of Wight and it was just nice. Er one day just after take off at Shoreham the engine blew up just as I was crossing the beach at eight hundred feet. I done the fastest one hundred and eighty turn in history and managed to force land at Shoreham at eh, at eh Shoreham and one of the pots had eh blown completely. In early December nineteen eighty the AEF moved to Hurn so it was now a hundred and sixty mile round trip from home eh but eh that was really good and I stayed at Hurn well until I, I finished with the RAF. I eh most of my Summer Camps over the years were at Coltishall close to where I used to live in Aylesham. On two or three occasions young Squadron Pilots came up to me at various places saying “ are you John Cooper? I remember you, I flew with you when I was a cadet” which was quite nice to be remembered like that, yeah. And eh, eh I remember one day em at St Mawgan in Cornwall, I used to camp in nineteen eighty five, I happened to mention on the third trip of the four I was going t do, I would be flying my five thousandth cadet and eh after landing on the third trip I was told by AirTraffic to taxi in and switch of because the Station Commander wanted to see me. I thought “goodness what have I been up to” Anyway the Airman who marshalled me in was wearing huge, six foot five rubber gloves, you remember Kenny Everett the kind he used to wear, marshalling me in wearing those and I thought “that is a bit odd” As I climbed out of the aeroplane, the Chipmunk, the Group Captain and a few others walked over smiling with a tray and a bottle of champagne and some glasses to celebrate the occasion [laugh]. I was sorry I could not fly again that day because of the drinking and eh in nineteen eighty six we done a Summer Camp with the AEF at Wildenrath in Germany, I bumped into eh this friend of mine Norman Geery who I trained with in America who had been this Flight Commander and he was, he was, he had retired from the AEF he was working as a Staff Officer, so eh. I, I flew over seven thousand cadets so eh in one hundred and ten different Chipmunks you know, that’s quite a lot really isn’t it? And I, I did about three thousand seven hundred hours in the Chipmunk and not too bad for a eh spare time. The one with my name stencilled on the side, eh WK630 I did one hundred and fifty hours in that one aeroplane and it is based up a little airfield in Norfolk again about five or six miles from where I used to live. I’ve met, I’ve met the owner in fact I met them a couple of months ago as well or the new owners, Shuttleworth when they had the seventieth anniversary of the Chipmunk. So eh who knows I might get a ride in that. I had visited my old Flying School in Miami, Oklahoma in nineteen eighty two we had a reunion there, the first one which was quite nice and eh we also had on in ninety seven, nineteen eighty seven and Frances came to me to that one so that was eh. I met my old Instructor on that one and he was living in Tulsa in Oklahoma. And eh so Frances and I went to see him and he said I was the first of his he had ever met since, since the end of the war yeah, so he was quite an old boy by then but that was very nice, yeah. I’ve kept my flying license going for quite a long time now after that, I had a share in a Cessna 172 at Black Bush and used to take the family occasionally and this that and the other and eh, I done what, six thousand nine hundred hours roughly in all sorts of different what about forty five different types but eh it’s slowed down now. My license has expired now but I had a real of on eh, on the I don’t know, this might be of interest, on the twenty ninth of June two thousand and three I was with a friend of mine in his Chipmunk on a three day rally organised by the Moth Club. There was a Tiger Moth taking part and I met the owner, told him his very same one that I had first flown at Grayingham School on the 14th of April nineteen forty four. He gave me a flight in his aeroplane on the 14th of April two thousand and four exactly sixty years to the very day that I first flew it. Now if you go forward ten years and again on the 14th of April two thousand fourteen exactly seventy days to the very day I first flew it, I flew it again. That’s a bit unusual isn’t it? Yeah, yeah and he said, he said well I haven’t booked in for the next ten, we will start with five[laugh] I shall be a bit creaky by then, yeah. So really that’s my, my.
DM. When did you, going right back to the beginning, why did you decide to join the Air Force as opposed to going into another branch of the Forces?
JC. Never entered my head, never entered my head well you see I didn’t really mention this, when the eh Air Training Corps started in nineteen forty one a flight of it was formed in Aylesham near where I lived and the CO was the local Headmaster and eh I was one of the founder members and eh I used to keep a log of all the aeroplanes I seen flying over the top of it and eh. I’ve got here there were Spitfires, Hurricanes, Aerocobras, Typhoons there were twin engined Whirlwinds which were quite rare and the Bombers going out in the darkness, Wellingtons, Hampdens and Whitleys at that stage and the Blenheims at Alton airfield about three miles away. When we, when we got our uniforms you see, I, I was made the first NCO of the Flight with the lofty rank of Corporal and eh one, one Sunday I cycled to Alton Airfield two miles away with a friend of mine also in the ATC, somehow we talked ourselves, talked ourselves into a flight, into a flight in a Lockheed Hudson for thirty five minutes you see. That was the first of March nineteen forty two. And from there on nothing else seemed to matter, every Sunday practically I used to cycle to various airfields to cadge flights. On May forty two on the third, tenth, seventeenth and thirty first I had flights in the Bostons’ of 88 Squadron at Athellridge, Athellridge after the war became home to the Mathews Turkey Organisation [Laugh] em. I flew mostly in the rear gun position in the Boston. One day I was in the nose doing about two hundred and sixty knots across the airfield about fifty feet, really exciting. So it went on like that until nineteen forty two in Bostons in June, July, August I flew in them. I had a flight in a Beaufighter at Alton and I had to stand by a door just behind the Pilot.Summer camp at Coltishall an Oxford, a Domini and a real one off the gun turret of a Boulton Paul Defiant which eh that was a really good one. Eh, the Bostons disappeared from Athellridge So I turned my attention to Matlass a little grass airfield, satellite of Coltishall about seven miles from Aylesham, in those days security seemed almost non existent, just rolled up in our uniforms to go flying. I did practically every weekend in Miles Magisters to do aerobatics and in a Hawk [unreadable] to do drogue towing for Spitfires mostly also in Lysanders also towing for Spitfires as things were. Whirlwinds, the Beaufighter and then the Bostons turned up again at Alton two miles from home. It was game on again and eh when they disappeared 21 Squadron Venturas turned up and eh they were. Incidentally when the Bostons were there I was on the Airfield on the day of Operation Oyster that was the famous raid on eh on the Phillips works at Eindhoven. I was standing on the airfield watching the Wingco flying there with Pele Fry coming in, belly land his Boston on the grass, great holes in it and that eh. And then when the em, oh, by now it was obvious the war had been going on for some time, I went to the recruiting centre in Norwich and put my name down for Aircrew which I think I mentioned at the beginning of this thing. I was asked if I would like to join as a Wop or Airgunner then I could get into the aeroplane, Air Force more quickly and then I could remuster. But I said no “I really want to be a Pilot” so that was em, that was em nine months deferred service, started before I was actually called up. In the meantime I still went, used to go flying in a Mitchell in February, March at Folsham Airfield and I also flew in a Lancaster MK 11 there the one with the radial engines which was a bit different. Eh and when the Venturas’ turned up at 21 at eh Alton I flew with them practically every Sunday in nineteen forty three, formation flying, fighter afill, practise bombing. So based at quite a famous building Brickley Hall it was a National Trust place, that was where the, that was where the Officers, Officers Mess there it was really quite grand for them, but the grounds are still open. My Mother often used to walk to Brickley it was only a mile and a half from home. One Sunday she say a Ventura go whizzing across the lake and eh she said, I remember her saying “I could read the letters on the side” I said “ what were they” She said “I can’t remember I think they were such and such” I said “they were because I was in it” [laugh] Yes I had one, not near, I wasn’t in it be eh 21 Squadron had one or two Mitchells for conversion purposes, I had a flight with the Flight Commander doing a liaison thing with the Home Guard. I was going to fly in another one all day, walking out and the same Flight Commander changed his mind saying as a new crew I could go on a later trip. And I am jolly glad he did say that because, I watched the aeroplane taxi out and take of but it was only just airborne and went through the far hedge and hit a Ventura on the other side on dispersal and never got above a hundred feet and about a mile away it crashed and there was only one survivor from that. So I am very glad he, he stopped me going on that. So my long deferred service ended on the eight of November nineteen forty three when I was called up and went to Lords Cricket Ground with thousands of others and eh. I am saying all this part [laugh] Yeah [pause] I was at ACRC for longer than the usual months indoctrination to get in the RAF. Of course in the rush to get down the stairs one day from the top of a block of flats we were in in St Johns Wood I was knocked over and got Concussion and woke up in the Sick Quarters of Abbey Lodge in Regents Park. I was recoursed but eventually went to eventually went to No 6 ITW in Aberystwyth in, in nineteen forty four. Em the usual pretty tough course because of terrible weather the eh winter time we were pretty soaked all the time. There was one soaking I really hated, one day we marched up the hill to the University swimming baths where we were dressed in full RAF flying kit, including boots, helmet, may west, parachute had to climb up to the top board and eh jump in the water and eh somehow clamber into a dinghy yeah. But I didn’t like that.
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ACooperJ160727
PCooperJ1602
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Interview with John Cooper
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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01:01:45 audio recording
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Pending review
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David Meanwell
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2016-07-27
Description
An account of the resource
Mr Cooper joined the Royal Air Force in October 1943 and trained in the United States. The war in Europe was over by the time he returned to England. He remained in the Royal Air Force until he retired as a Flight Commander and became an Air Traffic Control Officer.
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
Canada
United States
England--Lincolnshire
Atlantic Ocean
Atlantic Ocean--Rockall Bank
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1943
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Hugh Donnelly
101 Squadron
3 BFTS
aircrew
British Flying Training School Program
Cornell
Harvard
Lancaster
Lincoln
Meteor
pilot
RAF Binbrook
RAF Feltwell
RAF Heaton Park
RAF Methwold
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/211/3350/ABirchM150811.1.mp3
822228d299830315ec5ea07056aa17ac
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Title
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Birch, Marjorie
Marjorie Birch
M Birch
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with Marjorie Birch (b.1924).
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IBCC Digital Archive
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2015-08-11
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Birch, M
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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TJ: This is Tina James I am here in *** Waddington with retired GP Dr Marjorie Birch and she is going to tell us a bit about here experiences in wartime London. So Marjorie can you tell what year you were born.
MB: Yes I was born on the outskirts of London on, in the 29th of June 1924 so I am ninety one now so I can’t complain I haven’t had a good run.
TJ: So your father was he involved in the First World War?
MB: Yes he was in the Royal Flying Corps and a lot of my uncles were in the Army and one or two of them were injured but very lucky no one was killed so you know a fairly big family (interrupted)
TJ: Did they used to talk about their experiences?
MB: No.
TJ: Not even your Father.
MB: No not much at all no. I don’t know why we didn’t question them at the time, I mean looking back I ask why didn’t I question them, you know. No I think in the First World War a lot of them were you know, pretty well upset about everything they say and were not very keen to talk about it were they. No they didn’t, no.
TJ: So where did you grow up?
MB: Well we moved when I was quite small to a place called Bexley Heath which is in Kent and they built eh a lot of new houses. You know we had a spell in Lincoln where a lot of the villages you know building,a lot of building going on. It was a semi detached house with a garage sounds although it was small but the rooms were quite large and we had quite a big garden. Mind you the soil was awful, my Father had a lot of trouble to grow anything much at all. Em anyway we moved there in the thirties I think I would be about, oh I had a Sister who was em, eh how many, emmm, eighteen months younger than me, I have to think. We were pretty close but that’s all we were.
TJ: Just the two of you.
MB: Yes, and my Father was in the Civil Service and he worked in County Hall on Westminster Bridge. Its still there in various departments and ended up by being in charge of the whole of the Fire Force during the War. So when the Fire Fighters were having a terrible time, he was in charge. Anyway em, so we moved to Bexley Heath and we went to em, first of all eh Eirwith Grammar School which I don’t think I don’t know if it is still there,it is probably a Comprehensive now. Because our rent paying area, that was where you went to Grammar School and so em, but it was a mixed Grammar School and after a couple of years they decided to make it just boys only. We were transferred to Dartford Grammar School which was a girls Grammar School. The boys, there was a boys Grammar School incidentally [unreadable] just in passing, not at the time I was there. So then we were there after the war started and because we were in an area where they bombed, the bombers used to come up the, up the Thames to bomb London and we could see them and hear them. Em because they thought we were in a dangerous area we were offered evacuation and em so my Father said yes you can go but you must have a billet together, he wouldn’t have us separated. So I remember, it would have been in 1940, in the summer I think it was June, going to Waterloo Station and I have never seen anything like it, there was just children. The whole station was full of children, varying from little ones with their Mothers eh to, I was then eh sixteen, yes I was doing my [unreadable], The little ones had labels round their necks as you probably know, and trains coming in and filling up and going out. We didn’t know where we were going, we had two teachers with us.There would be about thirty of us to start with and a couple of teachers, we had to take something to eat and drink. Anyway we’d pack on the train and nobody knew where we were going, sounds absolutely amazing, but somewhere to the south. We ended up in Exeter which is a very nice town of course. When you go all day in the train, it was very slow, it took us all day, I think we left about seven O’clock in the morning. Everybody was absolutely fed up, you know, tired and hot, it was a hot day. So the next thing you, you know, we were met by a couple of people who were in charge of finding billets and they got the numbers that were coming, presumably. And we were herded onto the platform and we had to go round with these people and the teachers, going round Exeter dropping off children. You were more or less lined up and they came, and the people who said they would have evacuees came along and chose. Needless to say my Sister and I were the last because most of them expected young children, I think they were a bit taken aback because we were as old as we were. Anyway eh finally we ended up with a Welsh couple in their middle age I would say, who hadn’t any children. They were very nice eh and in Countess Weir which is outside Exeter a very pleasant place to live. Well as I say they were very nice, we, we have always been shown to do a bit of cooking and stuff so we helped out when we could. She had her own ways, they were Welsh and she was lovely really. Anyway em there was er there was going to be, it would be at the cricket ground in Exeter, the Ashes you know were going on at that time and there was a match being played in Exeter. So the husband said to us “do you like cricket?” I was very keen on cricket, we didn’t play it as school, but, you know I liked, I liked it because some friends always took me to the cricket when we lived in Bexley Heath. Anyway so off we go and we walked down the new bi pass to wherever the ground was and at that time there was a large convoy of Americans coming. I thought I don’t know about the dates but they were definitely Americans. And em they were non stop, there were lorries there were cars, jeeps, everything. And you know what they are like, they were all whistling and so what, I was sixteen. This upset the host of house because he weren’t used to having any children or anybody like that. So they approached the teacher and said we were much older that expected and he was embarrassed and so we had to be found another, another billet. This time it was with eh, eh a young woman who was married to a chap in the Army, he must have been very young, she had a two year old child so she was very nice as well, so we used to help her as much as possible. But the child I am afraid, well you can understand it because the husband had been posted missing and she didn’t know if he was dead or alive or whatever. And she slept in her mother’s bed and I say she was about two and half and her Mother was still breast feeding her plus an ordinary diet, in other words the child did as she liked. Well we had a nice bedroom during the day, we had our books and stuff in the bedroom, during the day she allow, she couldn’t lock the door. She was in our bedroom pulling all the books, some of text books were school books tearing out some of the pages, I mean. We would say “well look we will try and put everything out of her reach.” But it was absolutely hopeless, but were there, I think we were there a year or two, a year and a half perhaps, oh now we couldn’t have been because, no I meant months, we were there about three or four months and in the end it got so difficult that we said to the Teacher, we said to her you know “we would like to help you,” because she needed the money, “but we really, we can’t do this these books aren’t ours” Anyway what ever we did it didn’t work. So we were found another billet and this was a couple who lived in Countess Weir in an old monastery, it was absolutely fantastic, divided into two houses and it was right by the river and eh, the husband worked for the gas board and the wife was quite a bit older than him and her Sister and she owned a local paper, you know eh, I don’t know what it was called I can’t remember. Anyway she was a fantastic cook. So we were there for the rest of the time we were evacuated and eh and she eh taught me quite a lot of cooking things which was very nice. And eh, we came back in 1941 because we went down in 1940, came back in ’41. By which time my eh, we’d moved from Bexley Heath down to a small village outside Maidstone. Well it was a small holding, very nice, lots of fruit growing. We had ducks and geese and everything down there, it was really lovely. My Father obviously had to travel up to London everyday. Anyway we moved there so we had to go to Maidstone Grammar School, so I was going there for my higher schools as it was called, in other words A levels because of course I was em applying for University. So we had, so when I got my A levels I applied to all the Medical, I wanted to do Medicine at Top Woman. In those days there were three which were all Women and didn’t take any men. There were Guys, not Guys, Kings and UCH which took half a dozen, so I applied for them all.
MB: What did you parents think about you going into Medicine?
TJ: Well my Father, who was quite strict, he said “girls want to do Careers that are paid the same as men not less.” So he said “you’ve got a choice of Medicine, Dentistry, Accountancy and Law so you had better choose.” In those days it was strange, you know we used to accept things like that. Anyway I had always been quite interested in medicine and had my appendix out when I was thirteen at eh, eh oh dear, one of the London hospitals, it will come to me. I was very impressed and I liked, I liked this and I thought yes I like this, this is good. Eh and my Sister was absolutely bonkers about animals so she wanted to be a Vet. So we both had to take our A levels obviously to get into University. When I was talking about applying for Medical School I heard afterwards that UCH and Kings who were mostly men and half a dozen women. Oh with our application form, when we submitted our application form we had to send in a photograph. Apparently the Consultants looked at the photograph, chose the prettiest girls and that was that.[laugh] Anyway that was the story that went round and naturally I didn’t get in, but I got a place at Royal Free. In my days it was known as the Royal Free for freaks and frumps. I can tell you it wasn’t freaks and frumps in my year there were some goers I can tell you. I mean in London apart from all the other things there was a very ongoing social life, because they had all the Foreign Embassies with all the Troops around and we used to get invitations to all sorts of things, it was quite interesting. Anyway eh so there we were, I went up to the Royal Free, must get this right. I went up in nineteen forty, forty one, forty two, I went up in forty three. I went up in forty three that’s right and em, so em and when you went you had a list of University Properties in London where you could get digs, you know. So I got a room, you only got a room, I mean there was nothing specific like the modern Universities, it was a case of going in where you could get anywhere. Anyway I was in a house with three stories in a place called Argyle Square in a place opposite Kings Cross Station. Well one side of the Square was in the Square, one side was the local red light area, [laugh] they got several houses there. I remember looking out of the window one day, oh I was right on the top floor and I, and I am, the other girl [unreadable] was in the other room and we became great friends. We were friends all the time we were at University. Anyway I remember looking out of the window one day and I could see the prostitutes talking to the American soldiers. I mean you really saw life in the raw. Anyway that was just in passing so, we were in these digs, it was run by a very old New Zealand lady who apparently had been in the New Zealand Hockey Team and she had come over on a tour, this was before the war and eh, met her husband who was in the Navy and em,em he was killed and she was old so it must have been em just before the war and em, she was in charge of the rooms.She had a room right down on the bottom, there were two rooms on the top and three, then another three and another three and the old ladies room right at the bottom. For all these people we had one toilet, we had a bath which was actually in the conservatory at the back of the house, so from my window I could see in [laugh] you see. The whole setup was frightful really but we did have a bathroom em in the premises in, at the Medical School. Now I must explain, the Medical School attached to the Royal Free was called the London School of Medicine and it was in Hunter Street.That is where you had to do your second MB, which is the second lot of exams you took before you before you went into the, into the Hospital and into the Wards. Its quite different now we did Anatomy and Physiology, we had a really thorough grounding. And by what I, I have spoken to the Medical Students at the modern day, you know at the moment and frankly I am not impressed with their training at all, its entirely different. I don’t think they are getting the grounding we had. Anyway, so this took two years, you really had to get down to it, you didn’t have time to have a social life at all, it was really hard slog. Anyway we knew we were there to work, anyway this particular friend of mine lived at Orpington and she used to go home at the weekends, you know it was nice of here to get out of the digs really. I know every Saturday morning eh I used to go down to the local, they called it eh the British restaurant, they had these British restaurants in London where for a shilling, I think it was a shilling, you could have a jolly good lunch. You know rationing was so tight and we had to, you did get a lunch and at the Medical School and em, we had no facility, we just had a gas ring you know to heat up water, so know things were pretty primitive. Anyway I used to go down and get a good lunch at the British restaurant. Anyway one day I was sitting there and a piece of pudding came flying through the air and hit me in the face and there was this old boy saying “bloody rubbish, bloody rubbish,” he was saying because it was the pudding and the food was pretty awful. He was so upset with his pudding he just threw it across the room, unfortunately I was sitting in the wrong place. Anyway that happened.
Anyway you want to hear about the bombing. As soon as we got there the worst of the Blitz was more or less over because we were there in, what did I say, forty three we went didn’t we, yes. Well they had a Blitz, the Blitz was the year before really. But they were still bombing and everytime the siren went, wherever we were, if we were in our digs this old lady used to shout up the stairs “Come down” she was, she wanted us all to come down and go down in the cellar, there wasn’t anywhere else.We got so fed up every night going up and down, when it, the siren went, we just didn’t bother, ‘cause really. I mean we could hear the bombs dropping, we were very lucky, we didn’t actually all that near. But in the morning when we walked round to the Medical School, you could see houses that had been bombed. I mean this is, and the strange thing is people were going to work in their normal way with their cases and so on. After that nights bombing, stepping over the rubbish and just going to work as you would on any other day. People would say why? Well that was all they knew, they got their jobs and they just wanted life to be as normal as possible. And if you happened to have a hit and you were in the house, well hard luck. A lot of people used to go down to the Tube Station which was just down the road from our digs, I, I only went there once, well I didn’t, I went in the Tube early and all these people were lying on the platform rolled in blankets and so forth, it was absolutely crowd. I mean the underground trains were running as normal and all these people on the platforms, it was very difficult to get on the train without treading on someone. Anyway they went in every night and stayed in there, it was so stuffy, so smelly you can understand what I mean. Anyway that’s what used to happen, other people had their shelters, but in London you see there were only yards at the back of the houses. We didn’t have any eh kind of shelter at all. I mean in the suburbs and that they had their Anderson Shelter and their all, you know, but we just didn’t have anything like that. At the Medical School there was nothing there, if there was a raid on we just used to carry on, I mean it sounds ridiculous but we did and we were very lucky. Until, I am going to think if I, there was one little incident em, after one raid eh, some young girl was found in the street, you know, dead. They collected people after a bombing raid to see if people were there, needed attention, if they were dead. So they were taken to the mortuary and they were all free, those that were near and this young girl attracted the attention of the man in the mortuary who’s job it was to take the clothes of all you know eh the dead bodies. He thought, why has she got her knickers on inside out because girls don’t put their knickers on inside out. They were very careful when the PM came and they found that someone had been trying to abort her, you see, she was pregnant and they found that she was damaged. That is obviously why she had died, not from the bombing. Anyway the Police had been trying to find a professional abortionist who they knew had been working in the area. Because they had the address of where this young girl’s body was found,they actually caught this chap because obviously she had died when when he tried to abort her and put her, put her out on the street after the bombing raid. And they caught him, that was just a passing, you know.
TJ: That was very interesting.
MB: Yes these sort of things happened.
TJ: I bet he never thought that he would get caught, if her knickers had been on the right way out.
MB: They did PMs on, but after a bombing raid, the standards I don’t know or comment on that. They didn’t expect to have a gynaecological examination. That attracted a do, so little things like that. Anyway I was just trying to think if there was anymore em. But what I was saying, the ordinary bombs were dropping and what I was going to, I have forgotten to say when my Sister and I were in Exeter, my own house, before we moved to Bexley Heath had an incendiary bomb on it, and my Mother picked it up, well she tried to wrap it in a rug, it was in one of the bedrooms and throw it out the window. She burned her hands and arms really quite badly. That was a brave but rather a silly thing to do I suppose. But some of those incendiary bombs, I don’t know what dates it was, if you approached them, I mean they were burning, they would blow up. She was lucky it wasn’t one of those. Anyway that was in passing, you know well. Oh I forgot to say, I’m sorry about this, while we were er, in Exeter well er one night there was a tremendous bang and er, a landmine had dropped, they had tried to hit the barracks in Exeter. It had landed very near to where we were in digs, that was what, that was when they young[unreadable] what it was. So that was very unpleasant and also one night we saw this glow in the distance and that was the night that they bombed Plymouth. Plymouth had a terrible night and day when they were bombed. We did see the light from Plymouth and that’s I don’t know how many miles from Exeter but anyway we could see it. We knew something was going on, but that was in passing. So where have we got to.
TJ: You were doing your anatomy and physiology.
MB: That’s right, so there we were in the middle of a … can’t say it, anatomy and physiology, we were having a physiology lecture. We had a lecturer in physiology, nobody liked her she really was a rather unpleasant woman and she used to swear at us. I mean in those days it was terrible having someone swear at you. We were young ladies we weren’t used to, well you know what I mean. Then see everybody disliked her. Anyway in the middle of her lecture there was a God Almighty bang. A rocket had landed on a Presbyterian, I think it was Presbyterian church right next to the Medical School. Our anatomy department was demolished, we were very lucky there was only one student in there, of course she was killed, the rest of the College we were ok. Well the ceiling didn’t come down but the rest of the ceiling on us, well we were standing there and my first thought was, well my Father at County Hall probably had heard that it had got pretty near the Medical School, or on the Medical School because of the Anatomy part. So I thought I had better go, dash down to Kings Cross to get a taxi to let him know. In those days we didn’t have phones or anything like that, so I had better go and see him to tell I were alright. Anyway as I went up to the [pause] oh, well to get my coat, into the cloakroom there was this unpleasant Lecturer, quite a bit of plaster had come down on her head and she was bleeding quite profusely from the scalp. She said to me “oh Miss Hurst, Miss Hurst” oh I had forgotten to say eh, my pre marriage name, my name was Hurst, so when I married I became Birch. We haven’t got there yet, sorry. Anyway “oh help me help me” so I thought poor old girl. So ran the tap in basin and put her head down to clear all the blood to see what was going on, she got a lot of little cuts and abrasion but nothing serious, so I rather enjoyed putting her head under the tap and clearing it all of. Anyway then I found a towel somewhere and wrapped it in the towel. I said “I must go you must see, you know check if everything is all right” presumably she did. Anyway I did go down to Kings Cross and got a taxi. It sounds ridiculous, I mean life went on whatever and you know people can’t understand that, but it did. Anyway I get a taxi to County Hall and go into my em Fathers Office and his Secretary was sitting and she said “Oh my dear whatever is the matter?” I hadn’t looked in the mirror but I had got plaster in my hair, I had got a bigger, one or two, nothing much, I was absolutely filthy. [laugh] Oh I said we had a V2 on the Anatomy Department. “Oh my dear” she said, I said “I’d better see my Father” “Oh yes go in.” Do you know what my Father said “you are in a mess why did you come like that?” I thought so much for caring what had happened to his Daughter, obviously he hadn’t heard. Anyway his Secretary was lovely, she took me into the cloakroom and cleaned me up as well as she could do, So that was that, so anyway,so we, we lost our Anatomy Department so we couldn’t function anymore so we were sent down to Guys. Now Guys was male only you see, no women and what a fuss. We thoroughly enjoyed it and so did the male students but the Consultants were saying, one old boy I can’t remember if he was a Surgeon or what he was “we have never had women walking out ward bababababa.” We always thought it was a great joke. Anyway you never had, these ah, anyway this Lecturer who we all disliked, because we all came down to Guys. She stayed at Guys for the rest of her, and apparently she mellowed, everybody said she was a different women when she went down, stayed in Guys and did,lectured at Guys.
TJ: Perhaps it was the plaster falling on her head.
MB: Eh It was the male surroundings, that was what I heard in passing, so there we were at Guys and eh we were very, very lucky when you think about it. If they hadn’t stopped the Rockets London would have really suffered, I mean they were dreadful, there was no warning it was just this terrible bang. Oh I forgot to tell you I did an edited course in Anatomy because I hated it and I wasn’t doing very well. So in the first two years we had a holiday, we had a holiday in the summer, before we started Clinical because when you started Clinical you did three months of ENT, three months of skins, three months of every department of Medicine you did three months because that’s when you were learning about it. Anyway well, before I started that, where did I get to. I know, I was doing this extra course in Anatomy because I had not been doing very well in our Anatomy exams. So what I did, we were living in a, I used to catch the train from where we lived to London Bridge and then catch the bus to the Royal Free [possibly means Guys] in Gravesend Road. One day we were sitting there and we were coming into London Bridge, there were two other people in the Compartment on the other side. I looked out of the window and there was this Buzz Bomb you know the V1 travelling exactly parallel to the train. I knew as we approached London Bridge the track curved round. I thought my God that is going to cross straight over the line, you know as we come into London Bridge. And I never knew, I knew what people knew by paralysed with fright I couldn’t speak. I was trying to tell the people “look, look” and you couldn’t hear it because of the noise of the train, the trains, the trains made a lot of noise. It was about as far, I am not very good a measuring, as my fence.” can you see my fence?” about as close as that.
TJ: That’s about twenty feet.
MB: That’s where it was, it was very close and I thought “Oh my God” and I just sat there paralysed with fright and these two completely unaware. Suddenly if I had, had a camera, we didn’t have anything like that in the War. It turned on its side, went down, blew up a couple of houses. The train swayed really badly and I thought it was going to come off the rails, swayed from side to side because of the blast and stayed on the rails and carried on. And when I got to London Bridge I couldn’t get out. My knees were going clickty, clicky, I couldn’t tell the other people what they’d missed,they’d no idea, completely oblivious of all this drama. So when I got to Guys a friend said “God you look awful are you all right?” Well I said “Oh deary Oh me” If fait hadn’t have turned the damn thing there it could easily have done it on the line and blown us all to bits. Sorry about that I am a bit out of. So where have we got to, oh yes the V2 and going to Guys. Well it was ok down at Guys we had quite a good time and then eh. From there eh doing the Clinical it didn’t have enough things going on in the Hospital, we had Emergency Hospitals in those days. We had to go, my friend and I down to Letchworth, because we had to do three months ENT at an Emergency Hospital and three months skins and three months something else. So we went down there and we had digs in Letworth and em so we got away from the bombing. And eh that was ok and we were alright and we had nice digs with a local shopkeeper. So we were a alright and we always had plenty of butter and stuff like that and we were always short of food and we did alright. When we were there we eh, we used to get invites from the local RAF stations and eh we had an invitation, for the dances I mean. And I went to one dance, oh eh we went to one at the Emergency Hospital and the RAF Crew would come you see. Snobs we only sent invitations to the Officers Mess. Anyway em and that is how I met my Husband, he was one of the Aircrew, he was a Navigator in Bomber Command at that time and eh and that’s how I met him. And eh, so this would have been about nineteen forty five I would think. I must tell you, on D Day I happened to be in Kent at home for some reason and I saw the planes pulling all these gliders on their way to France. I have never seen such a sight in all my life and I thought to myself “these poor men, sitting there in those gliders, waiting for them to crash” They are supposed to land gently but you know what I mean, that is absolutely terrific. I mean how brave were they, I am not saying anybody else wasn’t but that was really [interrupted]
TJ: And there was a lot of them?
MB: There were a lot, the whole sky was absolutely full of them, so that, that was interesting, I, I never forget that, but I felt so, it really struck me then, I mean. Oh and the other thing, I forgot to tell you in the thirties, this is going back a bit. The Zeppelin the R101 was being built at I think it was Bovington or Cardington one of the places in, in Hertfordshire where they were experimenting with Zeppelins, this was in the thirties. This R101 was going over to France, so we had a, it came right over our house. What amazed me it travel it travelled really low, you could see the little, I think its called the basket and the people in it. And you know and it and you know it was going so slow and the old propeller was going like mad. I thought we if they are shooting at it, they couldn’t miss it. Anyway they weren’t , the War hadn’t started. Apparently that night, I don’t know how long after that it crashed in France and they were all killed. I don’t know how many people were in. I always remember that as a child, that would have been about nineteen thirty six, not quite sure. You know sorry I ought to put things in no I.
TJ: No it doesn’t matter, so lets go back to D Day did you get news on what was going on day to day?
MB: Well, it was very difficult ‘cause we were at, what forty four em, no I must have been at home so we didn’t. Well you got the news, the Radio news and they said they announced I can’t eh, I can’t tell you how it was, how it was put because obviously they have got recordings of what they em of what they were saying on the Radio. But they did tell you that em, didn’t give you any details I don’t suppose they knew very much at first.
TJ: But you did know there had been an Invasion.
MB: Yes, we knew it was on. I knew when I saw the gliders I knew you see. I think the Government were trying to keep it very secret when they were preparing all these thing. But I mean, I don’t know how many of these gliders landed successfully without them being killed. It was a sight as I say I shall never forget. Yes eh I am just trying to put things into chronicological order, it’s a bit difficult. Sorry where did we get to? Oh yes we were in digs in Letchworth and then we came back to the Free to continue our Clinical, because you had to do every part of Medicine and then you took your Finals and that was that. Then you took your house jobs and everything else. So came back to Guys and I was feeling really rotten, you couldn’t put your finger on it but anyway in the end they found I had a Pleural Effusion. Eh I hadn’t had a cough or anything like that. Anyway in those days anything in the lungs like that must be Tubercular because there was a lot of tuberculosis around at that time and after the War and eh, all my X rays were clear but no “you must take a year they did in these days, they’d take a specimen of the pleural effusion of you lung and inject it into a guinea pig because guinea pigs were very sensitive to the, to the tubical bug and I knew a lass in the path lab and she let, said to me “your guinea pigs very healthy” so I didn’t have TB but they wouldn’t accept they said “you must take a year off” so I went down and stayed in my Parents house at, near Maidstone for a year. So I lost all that, all the friends because you are together for about five years and you become like a club, you know. Everybody knows everybody else and its really nice because you feel part of a group, we stayed together. Well,of course when I had to take it out, I missed everybody especially my particular friend. ‘Cause they were a year ahead, so they qualified a year before me. I qualified in 1949 finally and, but I was married in 1946 which as a Student was very unusual in those days, because when my Husband came out of the, when he was demobbed we managed to get or find a flat in London in Balm. Well finding a flat in London after the war was like gold dust. Anyway we decided we would get married because we got a flat. In those days you didn’t live together, so we got married in a[laugh] in eh eh Wandsworth Registry Office. We queued up at quarter to nine in the morning and there were marriages going on twenty minutes each. Next one please, next one please, next one please[ laugh]. My Father had strongly disapproved of my Husband to be because he didn’t have enough money according to him. He didn’t come to the wedding my Mother came and my Aunt and Uncle from Orpington were wonderful, they really helped me because my Mother would have to come up by train because she was, were living near Maidstone then. Anyway she brought some of the things she managed to get from the country as far as food and everyone,well there was Bills particular friend my Husbands particular, my particular friend from Guys, my Aunt and Uncle, my Sister and my Mother. Oh no of course not I’d forgotten, my Husbands Parents she didn’t approve either so they weren’t going to come either. I was a sickly girl from the south because they lived in. Oh I must tell you this, when we were engaged, we were engaged in the year before, nineteen forty five my husband to be said eh “you must come up and meet my parents” they lived outside, in a village outside Halifax in Yorkshire. So I brought some photographs of my Family so they could see. So there was one of my Sister and myself, gave it to my Mother in Law to be and she said “is that your Sister” and I said “yes” “she’s very pretty isn’t she” I said “yes” then there was a long pause and she said “you are not a bit alike are you?” [laughs] So that was how we started a glorious friendship. Anyway because they were Yorkshire they were both overweight both eh his Father and Mother. But my Husband was tall, quite different, I mean there were some tall people apparently in his Fathers family but his parents were rather dumpy and overweight. Eh when they saw me they did not approve, I was a sickly girl from the south, I was rather slim, in fact I have always been a bit thin. So anyway that started and over the years, oh I won’t tell you about when we got married, you wouldn’t want to hear all that. ‘cause we went up and lived in Yorkshire. My Husband did some of his house jobs in Bradford Royal Infirmary and I did a Casualty job there and Philippa our first child was born. You don’t want to hear all that but eh I just remembered about my Mother in Law.
TJ: So was your Husband had he started his Medical Training before the War.
MB: No when he came out he said eh Aircrew could get grants for University ‘cause he didn’t really want to go back into the Civil Service he only done a year anyway. They offered him his old job which actually was in London but he said “no I am going to do Medicine” I said “are you sure?” because by then I was half, I was doing my Clinical by then. When we were married I was still doing my Clinical but we got this flat in London and he got eh what? I got a small grant from the Grammar School, they did have grants for going to University. So I got a small grant given the condition that my Father paid the same amount. I don’t think it was very much, anyway he agreed to it. So anyway that was how I got, how we got the money and then he said “I am going to apply for a grant, I tell you because I am going to do Medicine” I said “are you sure.” So he applied on the grounds of outstanding em oh eh outstanding bravery or something like that because he was given the DF eh DFC no DFM because when they were awarded they were still not eh em that hadn’t been given their Commission, that was it, when the appoint. But the Canadians, Australians and all the others who were in his Crew, they were all given Commissions straight away so they were all given the DFC. But because the English, there was Bill and the Rear Gunner who was English, because they were English they weren’t give their Commissions, till six months after, so they lost out on that, which is typical really isn’t it? Anyway er where did we get to?
TJ: He started to do Medicine.
MB: Yes so eh he applied for a grant, they said no he didn’t , he didn’t qualify. So my Father said to him because we were living with my Parents then em em, “well go and see your MP” So we went up to Halifax to see the MP there and he said I, “I’ll see what I can do, because you were decorated you are entitled to a grant” Anyway he did and he was given a grant, we were fine then. So we had a small grant, I think we paid eighteen shillings a week for our flat and we had an income of three pounds a week which we thought was really jolly good. So then he applied for Medical Schools and because he had been in the RAF he was accepted for all, for all the the you know London Hospitals. When he went for an interview to Guys there was a Surgeon there called Tony Bear who has written a book, very ancient now and he said to Bill “ do you play rugby boy” he said “yes I played rugby at school and I played rugby for the RAF” “right he said your in” [laughs] So I am not saying he got in at the others that was Guys because . he went to Barts, St Marys and all others and I tell you he was accepted for them all so he had a choice. He decided to go to Guys and eh he did play rugby all the time he was there. But I got fed up when Phillipa was born in nineteen fifty and eh I got fed up with him coming home every Saturday night in an Ambulance because he was always injuring himself. [laugh] I said “now you’ve got a family you have jolly well got to stop playing rugby, you know” He loved his rugby so that was it. Anyway he, he was in Bomber Command as a Navigator and he was offered a place in the Pathfinder Force as he always said “the em, the em Navigators in the Pathfinder Force were the crème de la crème” We were, I was offered this you know, offered this place in the Pathfinders so he took it. He was in Mosquitoes, he was in 109 Squadron which was one of the Pathfinder Force, eh Squadrons. Em and eh they had the very modern radar called Oboe which actually, what they did was lead the whole Bomber Group in, into the Target and drop flares at right on the Target. Because this Oboe absolutely pin pointed the absolute, say you were bombing a factory, and pin pointed that factory. The idea was to stop killing eh civilians if they could. So they would drop flares and the main Bomber Force would come behind them and drop the Bombs hopefully on the factory or whatever, whatever the Target was. So that was quite interesting and eh in the Mosquito they had a Pilot and a Navigator, not like the Lancaster which he was in which I think they had eight in the Crew. Anyway so eh I only saw the Mosquito once when they were celebrating the fiftieth anniversary of the Pathfinder Force and they, there was a little seat, two little seats and I said to my Husband, how did you fit in, because he is tall with long legs. He said, I had a small Pilot [laugh]. He was a New Zealander. Anyway so that the War, when he demobbed, he was still on Mosquitoes. Oh and he was on the raids that took part to, to Holland Manna it was called.
TJ: Operation Manna.
MB: That’s right he was on that quite a long time, well for the whole time it was going. That was his last presumably, Operational time. So that was, that was interesting yeah em yeah em I don’t, I do think of odd things I can tell you about, but its.
TJ: I am wondering what did your Sister do, did she become a vet?
MB: Oh well first of all she didn’t manage her A Levels, she was a practical girl. I mean she wasn’t so good on the academic so that disappointed her. So what she did, she got a place at em, eh, oh it’s a College off Nottingham University, Agricultural College, its got a name, anyway she got accepted for that and done a degree in Dairying instead. ’cause she hadn’t got the appropriate A levels to be a vet. She would have been a jolly good vet but there you are. She didn’t have the academic you know. Anyway that’s what she did and when she was at Nottingham University she met her Husband who got a degree in agriculture. And they went out to Tasmania eventually with their six children and I always remember when they emigrated. We were all in a hotel the night before they sailed, because in those days you went by ship. And someone said “I see you are going to Tasmania, are you going to populate it then?”[laugh] and actually she’s go she has Grand Children and Great Grandchildren out in Tasmania so you can say they put their share in populating Tasmania yeah. So that was right and she is still there and she rings me up and we are both staggering on She is only a year, eighteen months younger than me.
TJ: What is she now eighty nine.
MB: Yeah she had her ninetieth this Christmas and she wanted me to go out, she was having a jolly big party out there, so, I couldn’t face the flying there, its such a long way.
TJ: And what about your special friend from Guys, did you keep in touch with her?
MB: She married when she was on an anaesthetic course she met a Rhodesian who had been in the War and and married and she went out to Rhodesia. And then when all the trouble started they moved to South Africa. And then from South Africa they moved back here, so I, and they live near Malvern so Bill and I went to see them when they first moved in and they came to stay with us. So it was lovely to see, to see her again. And she is still living, her Husbands died and eh Bill died in nineteen, no in two thousand and two and her husband died about the same time. And we keep saying we are going to get together and we don’t, she said to meet her in London. I don’t think in my present state, I am gradually loosing my sight, that I would be able to manage London, not on my own, you know I would have to go with somebody. And eh so I don’t know wither I shall see her again or not, we keep in touch. And I was going to ring her up and verify some of the [unreadable] [laughs]
TJ: You did some, obviously you did your House Jobs.When did you decide to go into GP work?
MB: Well when were, when we were married we, we were in London first and then we moved to, Bill decided to go into Public Health instead of going into General Practice. In those days they had a Medical Officer of Health, well he, he got a job as a deputy in Watford and soon got another job in Lindsey. And he was going for interviews all the time we were living in London then. And em he came home one day and said “I’ve got job in” he’d been for interview because I lost count where he’d been. He’d been to Devon and Cornwall and various these things. I said “yes I’d quite like to live in [unreadable]. Anyway he said “I’ve got a job in Lindsey” I said “where the devil is Lindsey I’ve never heard of it” [laugh]. And he was a, Medical, Medical Officer of Health in Lindsey and then the Medical Officer at Kesteven was going, so he got and that’s what, that was his job and eh.
TJ: And that’s when you went into GP work?
MB: Oh yes, and then we moved up to Lincoln, that’s what I was thinking. We moved up to Lincoln, we moved up to Lincoln in nineteen sixty and we lived in Heighington for thirteen years and then we moved to Waddington, and then em what was I going to say. As soon as I came to Lincoln I had been casualtying for a while from eh just daily, not a, not a resident in the eh eh.
TJ: Lincoln County.
MB: Yes, Lincoln County, so eh I did that a couple of times a week that was all. Because the children were still, oh we had four children and, and we had, you know trying to do, to do everything was difficult. But I did do some General Practice and in the end I went into a Practise with three other men down at St Catherine’s and em, but I was only part time there. And em so em what, no I hope to get this right, yes and then em no I was working full time for about eleven years and then, then I argh when I left there after I worked for eleven years and I worked part time, doing surgeries basically for other practices. So I didn’t do a lot of General Practice because it was a bit difficult with four children. We got them going to school and going to University and all that, you know.
TJ: Did you ever, going back to the War years again, did you ever do any casualty work in London?
MB: No not in London no.
TJ: You didn’t have to deal with Bomb Victims?
MB: Not people who had been damaged in bombs, well you, it would be routine when you were on, wouldn’t it? You were on in the morning and you would get the aftermath of what had happened in the night. No I didn’t not in London.
TJ: It was a good job then really.
MB: Mm well I qualified in, what did I say forty.
TJ: Forty nine Mm.
MB: So em, and then we moved up here you see, no we moved to Hemel Hemstead first then we moved up here in nineteen sixty. So when you think I, I haven’t done a great deal of work really but em I say it wasn’t very easy with the four children. So anyway.
TJ: So you are going to be invited to the official opening of the Spire in October.
MB: Yeah that will be nice and Phillipa my daughter, the oldest one is coming with me so yes that will be very nice. But I mean we belong to the 109 Squadron Association and we used to go to Bedford. They had a weekend in Bedford every year where everybody used to get together. That was very nice but it is still around a bit it’s a, they don’t go, well I think they do go to Bedford. It is very difficult because everybody is gradually dying off you see. Em, I don’t go anymore but yes they were very nice weekends. Oh and the other thing we used to do was go to the Pathfinder Ball, they had it near Christmas every year in London. Be either the Dorchester or somewhere with the RAF Dance Band and we would have a weekend in the RAF Club and that was really enjoyable, we really liked that. You know because we used to enjoy ballroom dancing. Bill was a good ballroom dancer because he had had lessons, when he went to London in the Civil Service he went to Madam So and Sos Dance School to learn how to ballroom dance properly. He was a good dancer I just had to follow him really. So eh, no they were lovely weekends those Pathfinder Balls and em as I say you had everything, the RAF Band. And eh we used to know a lot of eh the Squadron people in the Association. I’ve lost touch now, they still send me the little magazine they have, because they, they have a meeting at the ex, oh he has died now. The CO of the Squadron in his home, you know in eh, its Hertfordshire or somewhere like that, I don’t know, I’ve never been. They try and get together you know, some of them.
TJ: Well thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with us.
MB: Well I don’t think it was that interesting really.
TJ It is was fascinating.
MB: Do you think?
TJ: Yes absolutely fascinating. I’ll just add, I don’t think I put it at the beginning it’s the 11th of August 2015. Well thank you Marjorie very much.
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ABirchM150811
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Interview with Dr Marjorie Birch
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eng
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01:07:26 audio recording
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Pending review
Pending OH summary. Allocated T Holmes
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Tina James
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2015-08-11
Description
An account of the resource
Dr Marjorie Birch was born and grew up in London. She was evacuated with her younger sister when war was declared. She later trained as a medical student in London. She describes her accommodation opposite Kings Cross Station and the bombing. She married a navigator with the Pathfinders in 1946, before moving to Lincolnshire.
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Kent
England--Lincolnshire
England--London
Temporal Coverage
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1940
1941
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Civilian
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Hugh Donnelly
109 Squadron
bombing
evacuation
fear
home front
incendiary device
love and romance
Mosquito
Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944)
Oboe
Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945)
Pathfinders
shelter
V-1
V-2
V-weapon
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/204/3339/ABatemanJT160802.2.mp3
ed973811a2b5c581c1c4ee9acd8d25e7
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Title
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Bateman, James Thomas
James Thomas Bateman
James Bateman
James T Bateman
J T Bateman
J Bateman
Description
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One interview with James Thomas Bateman (423042 Royal Australian Air Force).
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-08-02
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Bateman, JT
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Transcription
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This interview is for the International Bomber Command Centre the interviewer is Barry Jackson the interview is Jim Bateman the interview is taking place at Mr Batemans home in Marsfield, Sydney, Australia on the 2nd of August 2016.
JB. My name is James Bateman I joined the Air Force in June 1942 and eventually having been trained in Canada went to England and joined 149 Squadron where I served as a Navigation Officer and completed a tour lasting from May 1944 to December 1944.
BJ. Jim what made you volunteer for Bomber Command?
JB. I think it was purely adventure, I was very young, I was seventeen and a half at the time when I actually joined and em yes I looked forward to something exciting.
BJ. Were you made aware of the high casualty rate.
JB. No we were not.
BJ. Once you completed you training or you went back to Bradfield Park where did you go, you mentioned Canada?
JB. Yes after being at Tammora and not succeeding as a Trainee Pilot I was posted back to Bradfield Park, I waited embarkation and travelled to Canada, Edmonton where I was in the eh 2 AOS at Edmonton and did my training there as an Air Navigator and eh Then after that, having a wonderful leave in New York going to England where eh eventually going through advanced training flying course to understand the topography of the English countryside and that eh finished up at the OUT at Wing where I formed a Crew.
BJ. And how did you crew up eh how did you choose your crew how did you make that thing which is pretty important of course.
JB. Well crewing up was something that was completely, quite unexpected it was just herded us all into a large hanger, Pilots, Navigators, Bomb Aimers, Wireless Operators and we were told to find ourselves a Crew. Well luckily the Pilot I chose I trained with him at Bradwell Park well nearly twelve months before and I knew him, not that well and that was the start of our Crew.
BJ. I’ve got a question, what happened to the people that were left over in the Crewing side of things, was there anyone left over?
JB. I can’t remember
BJ. What were your thoughts on that first Operational Mission?
JB. The first Operational Mission was really quite a simple one, we did mining across the North Sea off the Dutch, the Islands of Holland and eh very uneventful but that was just to introduce us to the em Operational Experience but the first real Operation was a Resistance trip to supply the Resistance eh deep down in France and eh to our chagrin we found we had the Wing Commander going to fly with us. So we had him, him on duty and eh and all I can say is that the Bomb Aimer and I we did a fine job and got to the place where we were going to drop the eh packages but unfortunately nobody turned up and em after flying about six or seven times from the starting point to the small plot of land eh, the Wing Commander with us said “well you had better go home boys” and eh, that’s what we did. Then they sent us back to the same place the next night, so we got there and dropped out packages and did our job.
BJ. Well, well, how many ops did you take part in ?
JB. I did thirty, but the Crew did thirty five.It was due to the fact that I had a spell in Hospital at one stage, I had my appendice removed and to my great disappointment also was sick on the last trip. I had a bad attack of tonsillitis, they put me in Hospital and little did I know they were going to fly that night. Luckily they came back and we were tour expired and eh got away with doing five less than anybody else.
BJ. Eh and what happened then, how old were you then?
JB. I was still twenty.
BJ. Can you remember your last Op before you obviously got sick?
JB. It, it would have been to a eh place eh eh Oberhausen to do an attack on eh, eh Oil Refineries they were converting coal to oil and that was our task on a GH Operation which we were the Leaders.
BJ Ok and you never had any close calls with Flak or Night Fighters or anything like that.
JB. Oh we had a bad time, our first trip when we converted to Lancasters to a place called Duisburg and on that occasion due to inexperience with the aircraft we arrived at the Target. I as Navigator had the responsibility to put the Master Switch on so that the Electronics worked the Bomb Bay and fired the bombs. Unfortunately when we get to the target which was very quiet, nothing happened because I hadn’t switched the Master Switch on. Our Skipper who was a very conscientious man did a round again trip. In that round again trip everything happened there was searchlights, flack the whole thing, then having to work our way back into the Bomber Stream which was about six hundred bombers that night. So we were very fortunate to survive all that.
BJ. I reckon. What were the two aircraft that you done your Operations in, the Stirling and the Lancaster what are the pros and cons for each one of them and obviously ?
JB. Oh well as being a Navigator the Stirling was an ideal aircraft, had very comfortable appointments and eh for a Navigator. It was very stable and eh I think the Pilot liked flying the Stirling but when he got the Lancaster that changed his opinion all together, it was a superior aircraft in all ways and eh all that I can say is that I would fly in a Lancaster anytime.
BJ. Yeah, yeah you must, the maximum altitude of a Stirling was how high, how high was the maximum ceiling?
JB. Oh about twelve thousand feet, but you see when we were operating on a Special Duty job we were flying at five hundred feet, so it didn’t matter. With the Lancaster we were up at nineteen, twenty thousand and that was what we did.
BJ. Yeah yeah and during eh my previous interviews the eh Gentlemen that I talked to spoke about their eh last thoughts as they were taxiing out joining the stream. There was a very light I believe eh there was a light eh there was a lady that used to give you a green or red signal eh. Did you have any thoughts or were you just concentration on your work.
JB. No the Navigator he was busy at that time eh, working out what the Pilot had to do, what height to fly so he didn’t have much time to think about if it was going to be good or bad. The Gunners on the other hand were sitting with plenty of time on their hands. As far as I am concerned I was busy and that helped me all through the Operation, I was busy.
BJ. Yeah, yeah well that was a good way to be and what were the conditions like at the em Base that em you were at and eh did you have a good social life was the food good.
JB. [laugh] Well you see we were at a Wartime Airfield. Little did we know that sometime before after we finished our Con Unit training, to fill in the time they sent us on what they called a Battle Course. The Battle Course was held at Methwold and eventually well we didn’t think much about it, it wasn’t very comfortable and it didn’t have any atmosphere at all. Then they sent us from 149 Squadron at Lakenheath to 149 Squadron at Methwold so we were back at the same place and it wasn’t [laugh]a very inspiring choice. The point was a Squadron that had a great tradition, Middleton who had won his Victoria Cross there. So there was a very strong feeling of Family in the place. So that made up for War time discomfort.
BJ. Did you, that’s an interesting point because you had Australian, you had English I assume you had all the Commonwealth countries gathered around you had New Zealand, Canadians, South Africans did you all have different groups did you all just rib each other or did you ?
JB. Well speaking about our Crew we were all quite, very close, we had three Australians and three Englishmen and em, we got on well together and the em, atmosphere at the Squadron was good and em we used to go out to the local pubs and, and have social eh, interaction like that. So we didn’t really mix that well with other Crews,we knew them of course, I was a Navigator and got to know other Navigators and em really a lot of the people we didn’t get to know at all.
BJ. That Crew you really got to know really well,there was no outliers?
JB. No, we were very close, there was one occasion we had a bit of a problem, I had a problem with our Engineer and er I don’t think I should go into that sufficiently to say it was all patched up. It was a silly dispute and eh eventually travelling to England after the War I called twice to see our Engineer and his Family and we got on well.
BJ. Yeah but as I said to you before I knew you in my eh eh the Navigator and Pilot are very important but as a whole crew there are seven of you.
JB. All I can say about that is that we had a very good Skipper who had a very good affinity for us. All, all over the times between the end of the War and now and until Wal Crow died we were always going out together, always, as a Crew and the Wireless Operator who is still alive, we see each other as much as we can. So it was a very strong bonding that we had and that was typical of Bomber Command I would say.
BJ. And I loved the way the Crew were formed, my and you can probably tell me a bit more
JB. The skipper used to talk about “my Navigator” something would happen and he would say “I want my Navigator to know about that,” And I I later on in my life I joined a Probus Club with him and he was forever praising the little things I done. I was a Tourist, Tour Officer and he would always ring up next day and say that that was a good outing, you did very well Jim,that was his way, he was wonderful.
BJ. And of course and he had the Crew ah eh, he sounded eh like he had the Crew eh.
JB. Oh right behind him, he was considered very highly by the Squadron, he won a DFC and for my sins I won one too.
BJ. There you go, that’s what its all about eh there are another couple of questions here and I will ask about after the War. Did you have any thoughts of the Targets you flew over and the Civilians, possible Civilians.
JB. All I can say about that without going into the dispute with our Engineer, which was to do with that type of thing eh. When we did the GH Targets, bombing the Oil Refinery that to me is what I wanted to do, I wanted to do things that didn’t involve places, area bombing, bombing cities. I can’t say I was all that happy about that and that is the reason we had a bit of a dispute. He was an Engineer and previous to becoming and Air Engineer he was on a Squadron on Malta, on a Fighter Squadron and the Luftwaffe used to come over from Sicily every hour on the hour and shoot the place up. He had, he had very little respect for Germans as such. So our first trip with the Lancaster was to Duisburg on our return after settling down in our hut he said “I think we killed lots of Germans today” I said “I don’t think we did that Stan I said “I think we were bombing this” and one thing led to another and I gave him a fat lip.
BJ.Lets not beat about the bush.
JB.It wasn’t very good for a Crew at three o’clock in the morning to be doing things like that, anyway we got over that. I must say from my experience I was happier doing that other type of bombing.
BJ.Was there any trip that you would say was worse than the other or did one stand out as probably the worst mission you had ever done? Eventually when you were allocated that trip was oh no Christ what are doing?
JB I would say the Duisburg trip.
BJ.And why was that.
JB.It was putting us at the reality of bombing what a well defended target was, what you could expect and just wondered if every trip was going to be the same.
BJ.And when you finished, when you completed the thirty missions and obviously you had to visit the Hospital em when were you, where and when were you demobbed?
JB.No,no because of my training on the GH equipment it was decided to set up a small school at Feltwell nearby.
BJ.GH what did that stand for?
JB.Yes
BJ.What did that stand for?
JB.GH it was using the Gee Box system with the uses of the Oboe technology.
BJ.What happened after that then, you went back to training people?
JB.I was at Feltwell with a small group who were training new Crews eh on the, the GH System. Just prior to the War ending I was transferred to a Squadron where I was nominally called the GH Officer.
BJ. There you go.
JB. For a very short time.
BJ. Eh when the War finished eh where did you go, did you go back to your former work or did you.
JB. I must say eh I eventually came back and was disoriented like we all were. We had been used to a different way of life for some few years and settling wasn’t easy. I went back to my old job as a clerk in this motor body company and er. Eventually after a short time I was talking to a friend who told me Qantas were recruiting aircrew. So I reported to Qantas and I was employed as an Air Navigator on Qantas Airways.
BJ. For how long?
JB. Not for very long, just on two years until a decision was made by the eh Department of Air that all Navigators should produce first class licenses. Being a Wartime Navigator I was given automatically a second class license. Which involved sitting exams on very difficulty subjects and Qantas provided the opportunity for us by setting up a small school situation with a a a lecturer. All the Wartime Navigators were given time and for three weeks we attended classes to prepare us for these exams. Unfortunately for me I found that getting Maths to work out the various problems associated, I found I just couldn’t formulate equations in my mind resulting in the fact that I failed the exam and was told I couldn’t fly with Qantas at that time. Qantas offered me a job, they were a very small company then, they weren’t very big as an er Air Traffic Officer. Well I decided that was not a good idea and for a while I was getting married and I didn’t have a job [laugh].n
BJ. No problem we can sort that out. So how old were you then you must have been in your early twenties wern’t you?
JB. Twenty One. So eh [laugh] what happened next eh I lived at a place called Lidcolme, Lidcolme Jensen Australia Limited had their factory. They were makers of swimwear as everybody would know and sportswear. Anyway it occurred to me they might have some kind of job for people like me. So one day I went over there and asked to see the er office manager and er which I did and asked him about jobs available. He said “no unfortunately, but maybe the sales department do” He arranged for me to see the sales manager who said “we are just thinking about employing more salesmen and deciding what to do and we will let you know.” Well I was married still had no job, but then just after Christmas in 1947 eh, I eh, was told I had a position with Jensen as a Salesman and that became my career for the next twenty five years and I have a watch on my wrist as a token of their respect which is still going very well.
BJ. How good is that? Excellent and there is a whole load of discussion after the War. One of the things I wanted your opinion on is, what do you think of what you did during the War, Bomber Command and the legacy you left, the sacrifices you made and what that said to future generations,they younger generation today. Is it something that should be strictly remembered eh reminded of, the sacrifices that you, you people made in those years?
JB. Yes, I suppose immediately after the War like most of us we just wanted to get on with life and and not think too much what it was all about.Because eh, you had to bring up children and a living. I did start going to ANZAC marches with other Aircrew friends and they were always more or less eh, jolly occasions, not really thinking of the War much at all. As time went bye and maturity set in, it gave me like a lot of others, the opportunity to think what it was. Now being a member of the Bomber Command Committee, mixing with Bomber Command Boys that are still with us eh, and knowing why we were em there. I have come to the conclusion that Bomber Command was a very necessary weapon for the Allies to have. After all they had nothing else going for some time until D Day and the Russians were able to do what they did. So we carried the War on against Hitler and the Nazi’s and I prefer to think of the enemy as not Germans but Nazi’s and Hitler. The German people and I, I, have become friendly with some, they were possibly in the same situation as us. They needed to be released from the awful eh [unreadable] of the Nazi policy which was a totally violent and eh, non human organisation. So I’d answer the question, I think it was necessary for us to go to War. We had to stop Hitler and the Nazi’s and whatever we did to do that, had to be done.
BJ. When did you learn of the atrocities that were.
JB. And off course the War finished and the reality of what took place in Eastern Europe, that was more so the reason for us to have done what we did. The fact that our boys lost so many, after all Australians lost 3500 killed, prisoners of war as well and eh eh, wounded eh altogether 10500 Aircrew out of 52000 Aircrew. Em the losses were terrific and all that I can say is that we were fortunate that our time of Operations was a relatively easier and eh healthier, healthier time.
BJ. Do you, do you, were there many of your colleagues, friends and associates that didn’t settle down after the War. I had Uncles that couldn’t settle down after the Adventure that had to go and do something else Adventurous, like train for the Korean War for example.
JB. Well Aircrew were pretty sensible people eh. One of the members we lost track of and it took a long time to find him eh it turned out eh an English Boy and he turned up we found out as a warder in a prison. But we couldn’t, he had sort of moved away from us, I don’t know why but. Eventually he was caught up in our family because our Skipper had to go to England quite often with his business. So he was able to contact a man called Harry Sue and eh we got together again writing letters to each other. But he was one of the first of the Crew to leave us, he died rather early considering em and eh. Otherwise where it comes to other people I don’t think that Aircrew as such went through the same kind of trauma as other soldiers did. ‘cause after all, even though we saw some of the, some boys seen some of the worst things you could ever see, their Crew being wounded and things of that kind. We weren’t like Soldiers fighting and killing people. What we did we killed people no doubt, but they were at length, they were away, they were down there, so it didn’t it didn’t feel the same. I think looking back on the War and, and being close with old wartime colleagues em you realise what we did and how important it was.
BJ. For sure, and in that strain did you ever get any criticism either subtle or otherwise for what you did during the War?
JB. No, no we never had that happen to us but some would have, yeah some would have. Some were accused of being eh, Jap dodgers, going to England and doing what they did in Bomber Command. They certainly would have been dodging the Japs, so that was bad. We never experienced that, as I say eh. As a Crew we respected each other and the duties we had and that kept us above all that other noise that was going on. Its rather sad that the War finished when it did with the Leaders being so critical about what Bomber Command did and I refer now to Winston Churchill, he never in his Victory Address mentioned Bomber Command, it was left completely out. Because of legal questions his relationship with the Russians etc he joined the forces of criticism of what we achieved. We didn’t, didn’t have to destroy all those cities in Germany. It wasn’t necessary. We realised it was, because how else would the Germans have realised what, what, what they were up against.
BJ. A different era, the same argument could be about Japan, their dropping bombs.The bombs that they dropped on Tokyo in January plus the two Atomic Bombs. The same thing could be applied it was a job that needed to be done.
JB. I think it’s a em a case of em Politicians with there attitude em about what is possible and what is not possible, they change their mind very readily when they find they have opposition. And Churchill unfortunately despite all the wonderful things that he did in, in Bomber Commands opinion he let them down. We never receive a particular decoration for being in Bomber Command although there was a decoration called Aircrew Europe but that was on a limited basis reflecting the most difficult time of Bomber Command and from nineteen, middle of forty four on you could not qualify for that you qualified before that. We were given the France and Germany Star which was given to every Soldier eh, you know. So there was no distinction. Through all these years there has been a lot of lobbying to try and rectify that and what has happened is that they have issued a small bronze em, ah, em [slight pause] addition to our medals specifying Bomber Command. That is what they have done.
BJ. I was surprised that there wasn’t a Bomber Command medal.
JB. It was all to do with what was taking place politically. Once the Russians had occupied their area in East Germany they started to make all kinds of em unfortunate statements about what had happened there. For instance in Dresden they originally said that something like over 100,000 people were killed. That wasn’t so, after much research the situation wasn’t good but the number was nothing like that, it was 2500. Dresden after all was one of the cities that Churchill himself had designated as important for the Russians to have eliminated as, as opposition as they came through. That was decided six months before, so Dresden was always a fait accompli. The facts are that Dresden had many Wartime factories that produced all kinds of important instruments. So and it was a very big rail centre for the transferring of Troops into the East. So it was certainly a very important target and unfortunately for the people in Dresden the East German Nazi’s did not protect them. They did not have any air raid centres, the only air raid centre of any use was occupied by the Gael Lighter the German Political Boss of Dresden, he survived. It certainly was a tragedy that Dresden was damaged to such an extent. However I have had the fortune to be in Dresden three or four times and I have seen what has happened, it has been completely rebuilt. There are certain things that will never be rebuilt and not change, for example most of the buildings were made from a local sandstone and the horrific fires that came on the night of the bombing burnt into the stone and those stones are still black, they can’t remove it. And, but Dresden has returned to a very charming and beautiful city.
BJ. Do you think eh ah, certain authorities have done enough to recognise Bomber Command, I know they have opened up the Bomber Command Centre in Green Park. Do you think that has gone some way to recognising what you did?
JB. I think the Air Force people do eh, they, they have made great efforts to rehabil,rehabilitate Air Crew. Em,[unreadable] affairs have been good we are based on the standards of veterans, eh, I don’t think we are singled out particularly but er we are given a lot of eh, wonderful support. Em, I don’t think with Australia being involved with the Japanese threat, that the fact that Bomber Command operated in England against Germany etc eh made much impression on the general eh population of Austalia, I don’t think so.
BJ. In those days communication wasn’t as rapid as it now so they wouldn’t have known.
JB. However having said that I must say whenever I have marched on ANZAC day the amount of em, wonderful em, acclamation that comes from the,the crowd watching is a marvellous thing. They recognise a lot of them, because there has been many documentaries showing Bomber Command. If you go to Canberra to the War Memorial there is a wonderful display there of a, a bomber G for George, being attacked at night, a simulated attack if you wish. I think that has brought a lot to peoples minds.
BJ. No it’s a wonderful, I think it is better than anything I have seen in England it’s fabulous.
JB. I feel that Australia with the great respect and eh and eh care. I would have no, no criticism.
BJ. Are you feeling all right, do you want to have a break or?
JB. Yeah I’m alright or do you want a cup of tea?
BJ. Yeah we might do that.
JB. You sit here I’ll make it.
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ABatemanJT160802
Title
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Interview with James Thomas Bateman
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Sound
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eng
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00:39:41 audio recording
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Barry Jackson
Date
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2016-08-02
Description
An account of the resource
Aged 17, James volunteered for aircrew in June 1942 purely for the adventure as he was looking for something exiting. He trained in Canada as a navigator and after a wonderful leave in New York returned to England for advanced flying training. on completion he was posted to 149 Squadron flying Stirlings at RAF Lakenheath.
On one of his operations he arrived over France to drop supplies to the French resistance but, in the absence of a reception committee, returned home and successfully repeated the trip the next night.
After converting to Lancasters, his first trip was to Duisburg but he forgot to operate the bombing master switch which meant they had to go around again and work their way back into the main bomber stream. James considers himself very fortunate to have survived that episode.
He speaks warmly of his crew but admitted that on the morality of mass bombing he had a dispute with his engineer and actually came to blows.
In December 1944, he completed his 30th operation to the Oberhausen oil refinery but became ill with tonsillitis and hospitalised. On recovery he spent time at RAF Feltnell training new crews on the Gee-H navigation system.
James was awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross and after demob spent time as a clerk before joining Quantas Airways as an air navigation officer. Unfortunately the training was too complex for him and he left to pursue a career as a salesman for 25 years.
James speaks at length of his strong feelings on the importance of the role that Bomber Command carried out, which was not recognised by the leaders, and considers that the enemy were not the German people but the Nazis.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Norfolk
England--Suffolk
France
Canada
Germany
Germany--Ruhr (Region)
Germany--Oberhausen (Düsseldorf)
Germany--Duisburg
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hugh Donnelly
Terry Holmes
149 Squadron
aircrew
bombing
bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945)
Churchill, Winston (1874-1965)
crewing up
Gee
Lancaster
memorial
navigator
perception of bombing war
RAF Feltwell
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Methwold
Resistance
Stirling