1
25
26
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/116/1188/EDerbyshireMTMillingEM450405-0005.2.jpg
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Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Milling, Edward
E Milling
Description
An account of the resource
20 Items. The collection concerns Sergeant Edward Milling DFM (656624 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, correspondence, newspaper cuttings and four photographs. Edward Milling was a navigator with 103 and 166 Squadrons at RAF Elsham Wolds and RAF Kirmington. He was killed 27/28 September 1943 when his Lancaster crashed in Germany while on an operation to Hannover. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bren Bridges and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive Staff.<br /><br />Additional information on Edward Milling is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/116227/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Milling, E
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Beeston Airman Believed Killed
Mrs. E. Milling, of 57, West Crescent, Beeston, has been officially informed that her husband, Flight-Sergt. [sic] Edward Milling, R.A.F., is believed killed in action over Germany during last September. He was a navigator in a Lancaster bomber and was to have been grounded on his return as he had finished his quota of flights.
In peacetime he was employed by Ericsson Telephones Ltd. from the age of 14 up to the time of joining up four years ago. He leaves a daughter 16 months old.
His parents live at 151, Wollaton-road, Beeston. They have another son serving abroad.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Beeston airman believed killed
Description
An account of the resource
Sergeant Edward Milling's wife has been informed that his husband is believed to have been killed over Germany. Details of his peacetime employment are provided.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One newspaper cutting
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EDerbyshireMTMillingEM450405-0005
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Nottinghamshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-10
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
Milling, Edward. Obituaries
killed in action
missing in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/89/869/PCalvertRA15050001.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/89/869/PCalvertRA15050002.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/89/869/PCalvertRA15050003.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/89/869/PCalvertRA15050004.1.jpg
0610954cd3bbe8f918dce3f7b4185e7d
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/89/869/PCalvertRA15050005.1.jpg
21e75bc174ef5743286891ae13f07f63
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Calvert, Roger
R A Calvert
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Roger Alfred Calvert (b. 1923, 1488619; 152814), his logbook, navigators training course class book and 3 photographs. Roger Calvert was a navigator with 141 Squadron at RAF West Raynham flying Mosquitos on night intruder operations. For most of his operational career his pilot was Flight Lieutenant John Thatcher.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roger Calvert and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-24
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Calvert, R
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Chief Supervisory Officer, WC. W. R. Kingsland; Instructors, F/Lt. W. I. Moore, F/Lt. C. Miall
Name — Home Address
W. D. Birkbeck — “The Pillars,” Surrenden Road, Brighton, Sussex, England.
E. Bouchard — 346 rue Desbiens, La Tuque, Que., Canada.
H. B. Braney — Glenholm, Prestwick Road, Ayr, Scotland.
R. A. Calvert — 14 Lower Camden Place, Bath, Somerset, England.
K. C. Clarke — 3 Portland Place, New Square, Cambridge England.
J. J. Coyne — 41 Rose Street, Garnethill, Glasgow, Scotland.
D. A. Dix — 7 Vandyke Cross, Eltham, London, S.E. 9, London.
G. Dufour — 4 St. Louis St., Thetford Mines, Que., Canada.
F. J. Flattery — 3 Purefoy Road, Yardley Wood, Birmingham, 14, England.
A. J. Jackson — 73 Hallowell Ave., Westmount, Montreal, Que., Canada
A. Jones — Cerrigellgwm, Bettws-Y-Coed, N. Wales.
J. Matthews — 20 Canning St., Belfast, Nth. Ireland.
J. McHugh — 52 Claremont St., Aberdeen, Scotland.
D. Shinton — 208 Marsh Lane, Erdington, Birmingham, 23, England.
B. O. Sibree — 10 Wordsworth Ave., Newport Road, Cardiff, S. Wales.
D. Stoddart — 6 Invertiel Terr., Kirkcaldy, Fife, Scotland.
H. F. Sykes — 39 Woodleigh Road, Monkseaton, Northumberland, England.
W. Symes — 125 Wolverhampton Road, Walsall, Staffs, England.
J. B. Tait — 72 Duck St., Carronshore, Falkirk, Scotland.
[page break]
[list of signatures]
J Jackson (Jimmie)
W. Symes (Wally)
Fred Flattery (Brummie)
D. A. Dix (Duggie)
Hugh B. Braney (Scottie)
E. Bouchard (Butch)
Aloysius Coyne (Glasgow)
K C Clarke (Casey)
J McHugh (Aee)
Arthur Jones
J B Tait (Jock)
Brian O. Sibree
H F Sykes (Bill)
D. Stoddart
Jimmy Matthews (Orangeman)
Gaston Dufour “Paddy”
Roger Calvert (Groucho)
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Course 71 navigators
Description
An account of the resource
The class book for 71 Navigators course, March - July 1943. Cover includes course details and photograph of an Anson in flight over the airfield with landing gear down. Contains the list of names of the 19 students who completed the course as well as signatures of 17 of them. A photograph of 19 students and 3 instructors standing and sitting in three rows with an Anson and part of a hanger in the background is repeated on two pages. Contains a written account of course.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One illustrated booklet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCalvertRA1505
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Canada
Ontario--London
Ontario
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-03
1943-04
1943-05
1943-06
1943-07
Air Observers School
aircrew
Anson
hangar
observer
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/845/PWoolgarRLA1601.2.jpg
4c8e1d5ade517b3c7d46b0183020e0d6
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/845/PWoolgarRLA1602.2.jpg
1e3c4a89fc59cbff26ab54c664c33c4b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Woolgar, Reg
Reg Woolgar
R L A Woolgar
Jimmy Woolgar
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?collection=87">17 items</a>. The collection consists of an oral history <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/2148">interview</a> with air gunner Reginald Woolgar DFC (139398 Royal Air Force), correspondence to his father about him being missing in action and subsequently rescued from the sea, his <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/2205">log book</a>, <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/854">service and release book</a> and nine photographs.<br /><br /> He flew operations as an air gunner with 49 and 192 Squadrons.<br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Woolgar and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle. <br /><br />This collection also contains items concerning John William Wilkinson. Additional information on John William Wilkinson is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/125319/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Woolgar, R
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Please scroll down to see all X items in this collection.
Reg ‘Jimmy’ Woolgar was born and schooled in Hove. He began working life as a valuations assistant and was training to be a surveyor, which was interrupted when, in December 1939, he joined the RAF. Although he had aspirations to become a pilot, he trained as a wireless operator/air gunner instead. His wireless operator training was carried out at the wireless training school, RAF Yatesbury. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/849/PWoolgarRLA1609.2.jpg His air gunnery training on Fairy Battle aircraft was conducted at RAF West Freugh. On 15 November 1940 he was promoted to sergeant and posted to No 10 OTU at RAF Upper Heyford. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/845/PWoolgarRLA1601.2.jpg Initially flying Anson aircraft and then Hampdens with C Flight, he had his first ‘Lucky Jim’ moment, on 6 February 1941, when his Hampden aircraft was forced to crash land in a field near Cottesmore, in Lincolnshire. The aircraft was written off, but he and the pilot survived with minor injuries. At the end of operational training, instead of going directly onto operasations, he spent the next 5 months as a screen operator instructor. Eventually, on 1 September 1941, he was posted to 49 Squadron, Hampdens, at RAF Scampton https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/852 where his very first operational trip (described as a baptism of fire) was to Berlin. With headwinds going out and coming back, and nil visibility, it was likely the crew would have to bail out. Fortunately, the skipper found a break in the clouds and the aircraft landed wheels down in a field near Louth. The aircraft had to be recovered back to base, transported by road, on a low loader. On another occasion, on a mine laying operation to Oslo Fjord, his aircraft was peppered with anti-aircraft fire, it returned to base with 36 bullet holes in the fuselage and mainplane. A bullet had also passed through the upright of his gun sight while he was looking through it, whilst another tore through his flying suit. The nickname ‘Lucky Jim’ was beginning to stick.
In February 1942, on an operation to Manheim, the port engine, hit by flak, cut dead. Despite jettisoning all superfluous weight, which unfortunately included all the navigation equipment, the aircraft rapidly lost height, and the pilot ditched the aircraft in the English Channel. Whilst the crew had struggled to keep the aircraft airborne, (on a single engine), it had steered on a massive curve and unbeknown to them was headed down the English Channel, before it ditched. The crew scrambled out onto the wing and managed to inflate the dingy, then had to cut the cord attaching the dingy to the aircraft using a pair of nail scissors, moments before it sunk. In the water for hours, the crew thought they were drifting near the Yorkshire coast, but were rescued by a motor anti-submarine boat, much to their surprise, near the Isle of Wight.
Operational flying was intense, Reg would feel wound up before take-off and there was much apprehension on the way out to the target. Often, they flew through intense flak that was sometimes so close they could smell it. There was always a sense of sense of relief once they came away from the target. In between operations, each day was treated as it came along with many off-duty hours spent socialising in the local hostelries https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/853
After his first operational tour (he completed two) he was commissioned and became gunnery leader with 192 Squadron in 100 Group.
After the war ended, he signed on for an extra two years and was posted to Palestine as an air movements staff officer. Luck was again on his side when, one day, he was on his way to an Air Priorities Board Meeting at the King David Hotel when the hotel was bombed, resulting in many army and civilian casualties.
After a short tour in Kenya, as Senior Movements Staff Officer, he returned to Palestine flying with 38 Squadron until August 1947. In his flying career he amassed over 1000 flying hours. For services to his country Reg was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/858
He was released from the RAF in September 1947. Initially employed as an assistant valuations officer, he studied to become a Chartered Surveyor and secured a job as a senior valuer with the City of London. He later became the planning valuer of the city. After 14 years he was made a partner at the firm St Quintin Son and Stanley. Reg retired in 1971.
08 December 1939: Joined RAF as a wireless operator/air gunner
28 August 1940: 145, 3 Wing, RAF Yatesbury - Wireless Operator training
29 October 1940 - 15 November 1940: RAF West Freugh, No 4 Bombing and Gunnery School, flying Battle aircraft
November 1940: Promoted to Sergeant
15 November 1940 - 20 August 1941: RAF Upper Heyford, No 10 Operational Training Unit flying Anson and Hampden aircraft
02 September 1941 - 24 March 1942: RAF Scampton, 49 Squadron, flying Hampden aircraft
28 April 1942 - 24 June 1942: 1485 Target Towing and Gunnery Flight flying Whitley and Wellington aircraft
02 July 1942 – 3 July 1942: RAF Manby, Air Gunnery Instructor Course
4 July – 10 July 1942: RAF Scampton, Air Gunnery Instructor flying Manchester and Oxford aircraft
25 July 1942 – 10 August 1942: RAF Wigsley, Air Gunnery Instructor flying Lancaster aircraft
3 October – 27 October 1942: RAF Sutton Bridge flying Wellington and Hampden aircraft
28 October 1942: RAF Sutton Bridge, Gunnery Leader Course
End of 1942: Awarded RAF Commission
09 Nov 1942 – 18 March 1943: RAF Fulbeck flying Manchester aircraft
14 May 1943 – 11 June 1944: RAF Sutton Bridge flying Wellington aircraft
20 June 1944 – 27 July 1945 RAF Foulsham, 192 Squadron flying Halifax and Wellington aircraft
29 April 1946 – 30 August 1946: Palestine, Air Movements Staff Officer
01 September 1946 – 21 January 1947: Kenya, Senior Movements Staff Officer
30 January1947 – 10 June 1947: Ein Shemer, Palestine, 38 Squadron flying Lancaster aircraft
13 July 1947 139398 Flt Lt RLA Woolgar released from Service.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
David Meikle
Herbert V. Lambourne
John N. G. Tilley
Kenneth S. Campbell Missing, believed killed, March 26TH, 1941. (Kiel raid)
J K Elliot
Frank Baker
Harold Simons
Joe Walton Missing, believed killed, July 1941
Charles Hill
J Payne
Joe Miller
J Arthur Bott
John Wilfred Hall Killed at Lindholme, July 1941. N.F.T.
[inserted] W G. McCormack D.F.M. [/inserted]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
No 9 course air gunners
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
Group portrait of 14 aircrew all with air gunner’s brevets formally arranged in three ranks, five seated, the rest standing. The man in the middle of the front row is wearing a peaked cap while the rest are in side caps. The group is in grass yard with two naked trees, outside a camouflaged barrack block. A board is marked 'No 9 Course Air Gunners', captioned 'O.T.U. Upper Heyford, November 1940'. On the reverse names with details of their fate and decoration awarded.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1940-11
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One b/w photograph
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Photograph
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PWoolgarRLA1601
PWoolgarRLA1602
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Oxfordshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1940-11
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
air gunner
aircrew
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
Operational Training Unit
RAF Upper Heyford
shot down
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/175/2337/ALoudonAE160505.1.mp3
4c6f7894fb5b9821e8f28f215fb471d6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Loudon, Arthur
A E Loudon
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Loudon, AE
Description
An account of the resource
14 items. One oral history interview with Flying Officer Arthur Edwin Loudon (432960, Royal Air Force) his log book, papers and nine photographs. He was a Royal Australian Air Force navigator and flew operations in Lancasters with 12 Squadron from RAF Wickenby.
The collection was catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
RG: This is an interview with Arthur Loudon for the International Bomber Command Centre on 5th May, 9- er, 2016, interviewers are Lucy Davidson and Rob Gray.
AL: [Background noise] Snowden.
[inaudible]
LD: Ah yes.
AL: [unclear] minister for veteran affairs and about 2012 and then er, I met the next two, Ronaldson, I can’t think of the other one.
LD: Johnson, Johnson, he was one of the recent defence ministers.
RG: No, [unclear] of affairs.
LD: Ah, right.
AL: But er, I said to er, Snowden, when we were in Sydney before we went away to [background noise] I said, ‘now don’t behave yourself, it’s not worth it’ [laughter].
RG: A waste, a waste of time [laughter].
LD: Warren’s a cousin of mine.
AL: Eh?
LD: Warren’s a cousin of mine [laughter].
AL: And er, he er, the last thing he said to me just before we left to go to the, planned to go to Britain was, made a point of coming up and said, ‘don’t behave yourself’ [laughter].
RG: And I hope you didn’t! [laughter].
AL: We had no time to do anything [laughter].
LD: That’s not very fair!
RG: Well, right what I want to ask you about, sort of find out a little bit about your early life and erm, early days in the RAF and then time in the UK with 12 Squadron.
AL: Well, I had a long service, January 30th 1943, and I was out on the street again on the 19th of November ’45.
RG: You were demobbed quick, that was a very quick, erm, demob-
AL: Well.
RG: November ’45.
AL: Once the war finished over there, at that time, er, I was, instructing on a landing beam which was never ever used.
RG: Ah.
AL: It was accurate within feet.
RG: Right, okay.
AL: Erm, they wouldn’t let us use it, because er, they said there was too many German aircraft [unclear] landing.
RG: Yes, yep, yep.
AL: And diverted us from our own station up to Scotland, but it was accurate within feet.
RG: Wow.
LD: Oh.
AL: If I sat over there [unclear] over the boundary [unclear] we were within a few feet of either side of it.
RG: Wow, that was very accurate, and they never used it at all? Oh okay, sorry, I just want to check that we are actually [background noise] [unclear].
LD: That doesn’t look like it should be doing anything really, it’s far too small [laughter].
RG: So, so Arthur, coming back to the early days, erm you were born in Goulburn, were you or-?
AL: Born in Goulburn.
RG: Yeh.
AL: Back in er, the dim dark ages [laughter] don’t ask what my date of birth is. I say it’s a good cricket score [laughter] two, four, two, two, two.
RG: Oh well, that is pretty good isn’t it [laughter] and what did, were you Goulburn, did you live in Goulburn, did your parents live in Goulburn or were they rural or farmers, or-?
AL: Dad was on the railways.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: A guard, and he spent half the winter in bed because of the effects of the gas.
RG: Right.
AL: It was er, bronchitis.
RG: Right.
AL: So, he [unclear] when he, he said that when he had the choice he had [unclear] or Goulburn, he picked Goulburn, he would never move.
RG: Right, ok, I think he chose well actually, yeh, so he wasn’t from Goulburn himself?
AL: No, he was born over in a place called Legan, a sort of [unclear].
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: The youngest of ten.
RG: Okay.
LD: Oh.
AL: I’m the second one of five, that’s four boys and then a girl eight years younger than me, and, now, I’m the patriarch of the mob [laughter] and the last of that family.
RG: Yes, yeh, how many children did you have Arthur? Did you have children; did you have children?
AL: Me?
RG: Yeh.
AL: Oh, I only had eight.
RG: Eight.
LD: Only eight! [emphasis] [laughter]
RG: It’s not really keeping the score, up is it?
AL: Thirty-two grandchildren and thirty, er, thirty-one great grand children.
RG: Wow, okay, you’re still one of ten though, you’re not keeping the score up [laughter] so, so, whereabouts, so did you grow up in Goulburn or did you erm?
AL: We grew up and stayed in Goulburn because Dad would never move.
RG: Yeh.
AL: And er, Anzac Day, he used to be glued to the radio, until TV came in, and then he got glued to the blasted TV, from the time it started to the time it ended, finished, well I could never stand it, you know, and he never ever spoke about his war experiences.
RG: No.
AL: Other than when some of his old, any of his old buddies used to come.
RG: Hmm, yeh.
AL: Which wasn’t very often.
RG: Hmm, hmm, so, do you know which unit he was with?
AL: He was with the 18th Battalion.
RG: 18th Battalion, okay.
AL: Did the Somme and all of those places [unclear].
RG: Yeh, yeh.
AL: I’ve got a lot of the, war histories there, that DVA gave me.
RG: Yep.
AL: And, there’s four or five volumes, and the 1916 one, sets out, where the people went, and it tells you what battalions were in what areas.
RG: Yeh, yeh.
AL: Most of it’s all photography, beautifully done.
RG: Yeh, yeh.
AL: And the girl [unclear] anything and all had to be sent up, was a terrific [unclear] er, Courtney Page- Allen.
RG: Does ring a bell, so you went to school in Goulburn obviously, and what did you do after?
AL: After the war?
RG: Before the war.
AL: Before the war, I left school after the intermediate certificate, with, a good pass with all B’s, no English er, maths 1, maths 2, business principles and chemistry.
RG: Right.
LD: That’s why they took you as a navigator isn’t it?
RG: Yeh.
AL: I went for a job in the bank and the bank manager looked at me and he says ‘you should go to do chemistry’, but I didn’t want to do anymore study, all I wanted to do was to get a blasted job and er, first job I got, I used to do odd jobs with one of the neighbours, who was an odd job man, I’d go and help him lay some concrete or do others and work with him, and then my first real job was a milkman.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: The bloke had a dairy out at Yarra, they had a shop in Goulburn and inside the [unclear] and he paid us ten bob a week plus threepence a gallon commission.
RG: That’s not bad money, is it?
AL: The average wages was ten and six.
RG: Yeh.
AL: And I was [unclear] earning two quid.
RG: That’s not bad money, is it?
AL: [unclear] quite a little run, we used, he used to make his own, er, ice blocks, which I could sell, then we start off flavoured milk, then he bought us er-
RG: I didn’t know people did flavoured milk that early, you know, I thought that was a bit of a later thing?
AL: I was using my own bicycle and the milk used to rot the front forks.
RG: Hmm.
LD: Ah ha.
AL: So, they’d break off [laughter] [unclear] but he bought us a push bike and side cart
LD/RG: Ah, okay [emphasis].
AL: So, we could get around, the milk can inside, was covered, you had a cover over the tap where it stuck out the back.
RG: Ah, okay, you could get around and just dispense, yeh, okay.
AL: Fill your measure and poured in the cans to put in people’s places, and er, of course if I had stayed there, I’d have had my own run, eventually, but, Dad made us, go on the blasted railway.
RG: Right.
AL: A secure job.
RG: Yeh [unclear] sounds like-
AL: And it wasn’t any more secure than any job you ever had, ‘cos I finished up in the railway, before it got political, I just walked out on them, dad started going crook at me one day, about it, when I went to visit, I said ‘look I’m a lot more happy and I’m getting a lot more bloody money’.
RG: Hmm, hmm, yeh, yeh.
AL: So much for the safe job.
RG: Yeh, yeh, yeh, exactly, so, so did you do, did you stay on, that did you stay on, the between the milk run and the air force, was there something else in between?
AL: No, I went to the [unclear] railway.
RG: Oh, railways, of course, sorry.
AL: I decided to go join up the air force, went in three weeks before twenty-one, cos dad was dead against any of us going into the services.
RG: Right.
AL: Because of what he went through.
RG: Yeh.
AL: The older brother was on the railway, he finished up in the railway army contingent and was up the Northern Territories, he was stationed at Katherine, and the younger brother was an apprentice printer, he got dragged in under the draft scheme.
LD: Oh, yes.
AL: He was a sergeant gunner, and the whole, whole little unit transferred to AIF which got him then to go overseas, he went to [unclear]
RG: Right, okay.
AL: While, I did navigation at Mount Gambier, the er, nav instructors there said to me ‘there’s only one thing keeping you on this course, and that’s your ability to do a dead reckoning navigation,’ he said, ‘others have managed it, but you will never get out of it alive’. Only wish I could have remembered his name and looked for him after the war.
[loud laughter]
RG: So, so, when you joined up, where, where did you go for your initial, initial training?
AL: At er, Retford Park in Sydney.
RG: Ah, yes.
LD: Ah, right.
AL: Er, I went in, in January, was three or four months there I think, and er, down Mount Gambier for Nav, across to West Sale for bombing and gunnery.
RG: Oh, you were in gunnery, even though you were a navigator, did you?
AL: Well, in those days, like that little, see the wing?
RG: Yep.
AL: The o, you, were, an observer.
LD: Yes.
RG: Ah, yes, okay.
AL: So, it was only after, we got to England, that they decided.
RG: To make them a navigator.
AL: You was a navigator not an observer.
RG: Yeh, okay.
LD: It was a later- [unclear]
AL: You had to do your bombing, and your gunnery, I didn’t do really good at either one, ‘cos you were only on Fairey Battles with the Lewis machine guns used to jam, [laughter] shooting was a joke, you know, with coloured boards, so that the colour of the trail end of the trailer [unclear] I think I got two or three per cent [laughter] I don’t know if anybody else got any more.
RG: Oh, I was gonna say that air gunnery was a bit dodgy even by, for the gunners, wasn’t it, you know, bombs.
AL: Our rear gunner shot down a ME 109.
RG: Oh, okay.
LD: Oh.
RG: Oh, okay, that’s quite a distinction. So, so, sale, for gunnery and bombing.
AL: Yeh, then we went to Park for astro, nav, and the last course was there, they closed it and sent it up to Evans Head.
RG: Oh, yes, yes.
LD: Oh, right.
AL: And then back to Bradfield, had a bit of leave, back to Bradfield Park, and get ready for embarkation, and er, I used to tell the cousins in Sydney, if you didn’t see me tomorrow or the next day then I were gone.
RG: So, you had no idea when you were going?
AL: Nobody would tell you anything.
RG: Yeh, it sounds like the services doesn’t it, [laughter] nothing’s changed, Arthur, nothing’s changed [laughter].
LD: So, when you left Sydney, where did you leave from?
AL: Brisbane.
LD: Oh, you left from Brisbane.
AL: They put us on a train, up to Brisbane.
LD: Oh.
AL: On, er, New Year’s Eve, we got to Brisbane, pouring [emphasis] rain, they had us this little Yankee ship, oh you smell the sauerkraut, the rain, and the smell of the oil, and rotten cabbage.
RG: Can you remember the name of the ship at all?
AL: It was er, captured from the Eyeties in the First World War.
RG: Okay.
LD: Ah.
AL: They re-christened it, USS President Grant, ten thousand tons.
RG: Yep.
AL: The sea was so rough when we left Brisbane, New Year’s Day, 1943, no ’44, that the frigates that were supposed to escort us, couldn’t go out to sea, so we went by ourselves, hundred and fifty troops, all Australian navigators, the rest were Yankees, going home after the Pacific, up the top, most of them Negroes, they used to knock, er, two bob, bits into rings.
LD/RG: Oh, yeh, yeh, yeh.
AL: Made a good double silver ring, depend on the widths and all the rest of it, some would do engraving on them, but they had er, there was four berths on the main deck which wasn’t very big, er, more like cages, all wired up, they were nuts.
RG: Oh, okay, yep, yep, yeh, okay, sorry-
AL: I got to know one or two of the, white blokes on the boat, nice fellas, but they put us on, sub watch, and we all had intercom, we were up there one day, north west of New Zealand, I think second or third day out and we spotted a plane, and we were all talking about it, the four of us, on the guns, and the crew decided that we didn’t report it.
RG: Hmm.
AL: They were all ready to shoot at it [laughs] but it was a New Zealand air force plane [loud laughter].
RG: So, you went by New Zealand then did you, or did you?
AL: I don’t know, we never got any feedback at all.
RG: Right, yeh.
AL: We were three weeks on the Pacific, about three days out from Vancouver where we were posted to, they decided, we’d go to Frisco, and straight across to Britain, they were screaming for Aussie navigators, and er, had a day and a half in Frisco, put on a [unclear] at Alcatraz, Angel Island and er, on the boat train, couple of hours at er, Salt Lake City, where a lot of the fellas first seen snow, then two hours in Chicago and er, straight through to New York, three days there and then, four days on the “Queen Mary” going across the Atlantic.
RG: Oh, right, sub watch again on the “Queen Mary”?
AL: Got to Gourock, near Glasgow, on the 4th of February ’44.
RG: Did you do sub watch on the “Queen Mary”, across the Atlantic?
AL: No, the boat was full of Yanks [emphasis].
RG: Right, okay.
AL: They were on the outside of the deck, and open to all the weather, with four bunks, on the deck.
RG: You’re joking?
AL: Up, they had to get down, fold them up, put their gear away every morning, we were privileged, we had four to a single cabin.
RG: That is good.
AL: Two meals a day, because there was too many on the ship.
RG: Yeh.
AL: And of course, we used to go down this way and up, and that way a lot, they took the stabilisers off to give it the extra speed.
RG: Yeh, yeh, so, so, were you in convoy or steaming alone? Were you in convoy or were you steaming alone? The “Queen Mary” sometimes steamed alone.
AL: She’d go faster than a blasted convoy.
RG: Yeah, exactly.
AL: And er, because of icebergs they went, further north than they were supposed to, we went in around the top of Ireland, into Glasgow.
RG: Yeh, okay.
LD: I have heard though, that on those transport ships, that erm, I’ve heard people say that basically they would queue up for one meal and the queues were so long that by the time they got that meal it was almost time to queue up for the next meal, is that right?
AL: No, I don’t remember much about that, all I remember is that we used to go to the dining room.
LD: Oh, okay.
AL: We were waited on.
RG: Well, you were sergeants, then weren’t you?
AL: Sergeants, yeh, there was, there was only ever three or four at the most, got commissions at the end of the course.
RG: Right, yeh.
AL: You had to be bloody bright, I think, to get them.
RG: Right.
AL: But, er, in the navigator, nav exam at Mount Gambier, I was second on top, there was only one bloke beat me, and the poor bugger’s not alive, to tell the tale, I got, he got a hundred and forty-nine marks and I got a hundred and forty-eight, hundred and forty-seven.
RG: That’s not bad.
AL: He made one mistake, I made two.
[laughter]
LD: That’s pretty good.
RG: You did pretty well, the erm, the, the group that you trained with at nav school and bombing and whatever, did many of them, end up in Bomber Command or did some of them end up in the Pacific theatre or-
AL: Well, some ended up on Pacific, but I think most of my course finished up in Bomber, going over together.
RG: Hmm, okay, yep.
AL: And, once you got started to split up, for Britain, [unclear] Britain, cos they shipped up from Glasgow down to Brighton, er, train to London, across London in the bus, and on another train to Brighton, we was there for a couple of weeks, in a couple of hotels, were condemned anyway, and had the first, couple, a day or so there, and then a week’s leave up, I and a couple of me mates went up to Scarborough, for a week, middle of winter of course.
[laughter]
RG: Yorkshire in winter [laughs].
AL: And then, er, Isle of Anglesey, to, er, what do they call it then, advanced flying school I think it was, on the tall boy, look at my log book, but er, you can see, that we were on the north side of Anglesey, and you can see the fog of the morning or during the day, one boat [unclear] come across from the North Sea, across to the island, so if it was foggy you couldn’t fly, so then they shipped us into, other schools for more training, to a conversion unit, they picked up a [unclear] to conversion, I went to er, [pause] one unit I was flying Wellingtons, and then we went over to a conversion unit to get on to the fours, the four engine, Halifaxes, and then over to [pause] get crewed up and then on to your squadron.
LD: So, you crewed up at the OTU?
AL: Yeh, my skipper, he joined up, when the war broke out, became a pilot, put onto Spitfires, as an instructor, the only way he could get off that, and see the war, was to transfer to heavies.
LD: Ah, right.
AL: He had two thousand hours.
RG: Wow.
[laughter]
LD: Wow, oh I would have chosen him, when I was crewing up.
AL: That’s a lot of flying.
RG: It sure is.
AL: Particularly in small aircraft and training, and er, the rest of us were all greenies, sort of thing, you know, the skipper, er, come from down near London somewhere, he was a motorbike mechanic by trade, er, I was the import, bomb aimer was from, er, rear gunner from Nottingham, mid upper gunner was from Bury, which is near part of Manchester anyway.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: It’s a suburb of more or less then, wireless operator he was a south, south England bloke, we got him, he was on his second tour, he’d been over on his first tour in the desert.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: It was always Richard, the flight engineer of course, you never got him until, er, pretty well the last, and he didn’t seem to cotton on to the crew, as well as he ought to have done, but he was the bloke that controlled the er, petrol flow from, the tanks in the engine, in the wings, so that the weight was more or less evened out.
RG: Hmm, get the trim on the aircraft, yeh, so, so you say he was the last, so-
AL: He was the last one to come into the crew.
RG: Yeh, we’ve got a friend of Lucy’s uncle, was a rear gunner, erm, and he was killed on Christmas Eve, ‘43 over Berlin, but, er, we’ve got his log books and things, and he, erm, with his crewing up, he crewed up initially on Wellingtons.
LD: Wellingtons.
RG: So, there were five, and the other two came in later, so, is that what happened with you, did you crew, you said that you were on Wellingtons at the OUT?
AL: Well, er, Wellingtons, we didn’t get to crew up until we got on to a Halifaxes, I think.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: Four, because then you had your gunners, and the navigator, and the bomb aimer, and of course, the other bloke come in late.
RG: Is that because of the extra training for the flight engineer, they came in late?
AL: I don’t know, I’ve never ever bothered enquiring.
RG: Hmm, but that was normal though the flight engineer was later?
AL: He was the last one to come into the crew.
RG: Okay, and how did the crewing up work because we read about the, you just go into a hangar and find yourself a crew, just do it, how did it?
AL: Well-
RG: But that might have been earlier in the war, I think?
AL: First, you come to the station to get crewed up, there was two of us, couldn’t care less, we was, just wandering along the road one day-
[laughter]
AL: This surly looking bloke, standing up, big officer type, you know, standing on the top step of this building, he come down to look at me, he said ‘will you be my navigator?’ [emphasis] [laughter]. He was a squadron leader, and er, he finished up 2 i/c of the squadron.
RG: Right.
AL: And er, then between us, he did all the picking, he picked up, and ditched a rear gunner and then we got, and finished up with a crew anyway, erm, from then on it was just getting to know each other, you’d get more instructions and one thing and another.
RG: Started to work together as a team, yeh?
AL: Yeh.
RG: So, that squadron leader, he, was he a skipper all the way through then or what? [unclear]
AL: The only time we didn’t fly with him, was the squadron commander, always took a new crew out on one trip.
RG: Okay.
LD: Ah.
AL: Your own skipper went out on a trip, with another crew, to get the, experience, before he took the crew out, in case something went wrong, I suppose and panicked.
RG: Second dickie, I think they called him.
AL: Well, [pause] the squadron leader, was a wing commander, Stockdale, was his name, he er, took us out, and I finished up with more operational hours than the skipper.
RG: Oh.
AL: Because of the length of the trip he did against [unclear]-
RG: Oh yes, yes, of course.
LD: Yes, of course.
AL: But, overall, with all the flying on the squadron, I think I got er, [pause] three, work shy [unclear] I worked it out at one time of flying, yes, it was continuous.
RG: It was continuous.
LD: They’re long trips over to Europe, aren’t they?
AL: Well, a lot of them were, they are too, the longest trip was to Dresden, which was just under, just about ten hours and then the next night we went to [unclear] which was Norway, so from the time we took off to Dresden, and the time we landed after [unclear] was nineteen hours out of thirty, flying.
LD: Yes.
RG: You would have been buggered at the end of that wouldn’t you?
AL: Yeh.
LD: And you had your debrief in the middle there as well, which takes away your time to recover as well, doesn’t it?
AL: You had your debriefing, then you went and got your eggs, boiled, it was the only time you saw eggs, on the squadron, really.
RG: Before you went.
AL: Before you went and when you came home.
RG: And when you came home, yeh, who, sorry-
LD: I heard that some people got bacon and oranges and strawberries as well for those ops meals?
AL: Oh, well, we got er, I think there was always bacon with the eggs but er, [pause] after, when we weren’t flying, we went, down to the local pub, we’d be down the mess, and when the bar closed, there would be bottles of beer and the big platters of pickles [laughs] and hard [emphasis] biscuits.
[laughter]
AL: State that and your finished-
RG: There’s a bloke down, who was a wireless operator, his record is in the national library, and erm, he was saying on his squadron, when they came back from ops, their debriefing went, they landed and had to remain in the aircraft, until a vehicle with a couple of service policemen arrived, they were loaded into the vehicle and they weren’t allowed to talk, taken to a large room, sat in there, silent until they were called up by the intelligence officers and debriefed.
AL: Oh, no we-
RG: He said that it was really harsh, that as on his squadron.
AL: We landed, we’d get out of the aircraft with all our gear and things like that. That photograph, that was taken off a little box camera one, about three by two.
RG: Yeh, yep, little tiny fella.
AL: Ah, I’ll tell you the story but after, erm, you get out of the aircraft and the first thing you do is light up a cigarette, and wait for the truck to come, hop into it, into an ops room, where you were debriefed then you could go and just chill out.
RG: Right, okay.
LD: That’s more like the experience that we’d read about.
RG: I think this fellow might have had a particularly hard squadron, we heard a lot of moaning about the conditions.
[laughter]
AL: Ah, no, it’s a, I suppose it was a good experience, we didn’t take any notice of it, you know, you were there doing a job.
LD: Yes.
RG: Yep, did you think about, you didn’t think at all about, at the time, about the-?
AL: Never thought about not coming back or anything, you know, so, er-
RG: Yeh, so, were the operations, because you did thirty-three and you did thirty-three ops?
AL: I did thirty-three.
RG: Yeh, but thirty was the tour that?
AL: Yeh, but towards the end of the war they put it up to thirty-five.
RG: Ah.
LD: Ah, right.
AL: We did thirty-three and sat on the fence for three weeks, sort of thing, then they said ‘right, you’re finished’.
RG: Right, okay, did that did they put you, did they earmark you guys for Tiger Force, for the invasion of Japan, did they?
AL: No, the skipper arrived, I don’t remember saying hurray to the rest of the crew actually, the skipper and I got posted to back to Lindholme, to instruct on this erm, landing beam, and, there was only three crews there did that, and I put in for commission and I finished two, or just about finished and the squadron commander held it up for three months, I went to the adjutant and said ‘what’s wrong?’ He looked at it and he said ‘oh, I don’t know what’s going on’, he said, and put it straight through. So that came, the commission came through, when I was at Lindholme, and er, down to London straight away, and got me commission a week before I got married.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: I said to the Savile Row tailor [coughs] ‘can you do it within a week?’ he said ‘no, I can do it in three weeks without a fitting.’
[laughter]
AL: I said that’ll do, so I got married with a stripe on, you could see where the stripes had gone on.
[laughter]
AL: And, er, I went to pick, I went back to London to pick up the uniform and it was a perfect fit.
RG: Ah, there you go.
LD: That’s a good tailor.
RG: Yeh, did it all by eye.
AL: Savile Row.
RG: Yeh, well, you’ve got the best there haven’t you?
AL: Well, I had the choice of [pause] taking it and finding your own tailor, taking your stuff or go to Savile Row, so, I can’t remember the name of the tailors, but they did a hell of a good job.
RG: Where, where else would you go if you are in London, where else would you go but Savile Row? [laughs] So, with the ops then Arthur, at that stage of the war were they still doing a lot of mine laying ops and leaflet drops and stuff like that-
AL: Say that again.
RG: Were they still doing mine laying, sea mine laying, leaflet drops and that sort of thing at that stage of the war?
AL: The last couple of weeks, the squadron was doing the food drops over France.
RG: Was that Operation Manna?
AL: Well, all the other ops were finished.
RG: Yeh, okay.
AL: There you go, I finished in March ‘45, so it was April I think when they sent me.
RG: Back to Lindholme?
AL: To instruct, and that was a good thing, I enjoyed that, yeah.
RG: Shame it never got used, used the device.
AL: Well, the skipper used to say, ‘right, foggy morning once’ he said, ‘give it a good test’ up we went and did a circuit, which I think was eight k’s, or eight miles, in those days and this little Ford truck or panel van so far in front of the main runway, the H2S in the aircraft, would send a beam down and it would be reflected to tell you whether you, where you were within-
RG: A transponder system?
AL: Yeh, whether you were past or on the right end of it, and this day we took up in the fog, the fog opened up, we were so low, we were below the sight line of the, er, of the tower.
LD: Oh.
RG: Oh, wow.
LD: That’s low [laughs].
AL: Yeh, you see, heard this aircraft flying, got in touch with them, get him down quick.
[laughter]
AL: But, that showed you -
RG: How accurate the thing was.
AL: Yeh, of course with atmospheric changes they couldn’t tell really accurate height, if you was over water you couldn’t tell the height within fifty feet anyway.
RG: Oh, fifty feet, wow.
AL: When we were at the squadron, we went out, to do some, er, shooting, out over the North Sea, there was two of us, two crew, and this other bloke, who was a nut, really, he was there flying so low, you could see the spray coming up under the engine.
RG: Ooh [emphasis].
AL: And I said to my skipper ‘come on Kurt, get down get down’ [emphasis].
[laughter]
AL: ‘Cos we flew across the North Sea, to er, lay some mines near Denmark, and they had to stay at about fifteen hundred feet, so the under the radar all the time and we used to get up to a height going over Denmark then [unclear] they put a camera on the H2S, where I had to take a photograph, at three different points, well, I’d never used a bloody camera [laughs] they showed me how to do it, you turn this, to get the next [laughs] screen up and I took the three photos in the one neg.
[laughter]
AL: ‘Cos you only had about a minute [laughs].
RG: Was this to prove the drops, were, you’d done the drops in the right place or? The photos-
AL: Well, yeh, they had to get, we went across Denmark, up to [unclear] Island and then back across, and if you did, you had to drop your mines within a half mile or the whole thing was aborted, so I said to the, the er, radar bloke when I got back, and he said ‘you did it on the one negative’, and I says, ‘oh cripes’ I says, ‘did you plot it?’ and he says ‘oh yeah, we managed to do that’.
[laughter]
RG: Try not to do it again [laughs].
AL: He was an Australian, but you had to do twelve hours training, air training, on the H2S before you were qualified, I’d done eight .
LD: Right.
AL: You are going on mines, I says ‘but I’m not qualified on H2S’, he said ‘you bloody will be’ [laughs] when you get back.
[laughter]
RG: That would give you great confidence, wouldn’t it?
LD: Did you use anything other than H2S? Did you use anything other than H2S?
AL: Well, in the earlier days, we had what they called a Gee Box which [laughs] hardly ever works, had a little tiny screen, on the end, and it come up with blips, that you had to read, to give you the location. Hardly ever worked, I used to carry a screwdriver and stick it in the side [laughter] sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t [laughs] so, you had to rely on your own dead reckoning knowledge or use the er, radio beams, which were stationed, in different spots in Britain and places, which the wireless operator had to take a reading for you.
LD: Ah, right.
AL: So, that, that bugger was a hundred per cent accurate anyway, because it didn’t know with the weather, what the waves would go, so it gave you a direction, the time you were, to where you reckoned you was, the angle, so you got a line across the, that’s your route, you got a line across that, wait ten minutes and take another reading from a different one.
RG: Yeh.
AL: So, that gives you another reading from that, and you transpose that up here and that would tell you whether you were on course or off, so, you can work out a new wind speed direction. So, that was quite an exercise, but once we got the H2S, which was underneath the aircraft, you’ve seen the bubbles underneath, that sent the signal to the ground, if it hit earth, buildings and that, it would come back to you and you got an exact-
RG: Map of the region.
AL: Map of the TR, if it hit water [unclear] you could tell the coastline, and rivers.
LD: Ah, yes, yes.
RG: How accurate was that, I’m not a radar man, but I know how inaccurate these things can be at times, how accurate did you find H2S in identifying, you know, if you picked up a town, could you?
AL: Identify it? Well-
RG: Yeh, by the shape of it, you know.
AL: You knew where your towns were and where you were headed and you’d have to be well off course, to miss it, but it was a good thing the, that H2S, we had it about three or four months before the Yanks got it, they called it Mickey Mouse.
LD: Oh, ‘cos I’ve heard of Mickey Mouse, didn’t know what it was, so-
AL: The Yanks, twelve aircraft in a V formation, if you got too close to them, you’d be shot at, didn’t matter whether you were friendly or not, and if they shot somebody down, that would be twelve aircraft.
RG: Yeh, they’d take a claim, hit it each, yeh, yeh.
AL: I reckoned you could always treat their, scores with a grain of salt [laughs].
RG: That’s the Yanks.
AL: They never did any night flying.
RG: No.
AL: Well, they sent us down to a place called Rouen, just on the mouth of the river, near Bordeaux, so that one gun emplacement there, to stop people getting into the river and into the port, we had that gun emplacement to get rid of, and they said the Yanks, they’ll be going to this place here, not far away, at the same, nearly the same time, I don’t think the Yanks went, we never saw any of them, ‘cos it was daylight when we were coming home, you know, you could see the daylight come, and the sun come up and all the rest of it.
RG: That’s a thought actually, some of the, you see erm, bits of film and stuff, with Bomber Command aircraft towards the end of the war doing daylight, daylight raids, erm, things like that, precision, more precision stuff, did you do any daylight stuff, or was it all night time?
AL: We did daylight and night, it was er, at one time they had us, what they used, said was a gaggle, that’s two lots of three aircraft in a V formation, two or three hundred feet apart, and everybody in the raid had to climb in behind them, now, I forget where we were going, daylight raid, you’d see this aircraft way over [unclear] like a damned dog belly, with the aircraft, guns, burst, fire bursting all around it, they was one of the squadron, er, squadron on the same station as we were, 12 of us here, 626 over there, Canadian, two hundred mile off course.
LD: Oh.
RG: Wow, wow.
AL: And he got shot to buggery, the navigator, got sent home, immediately, given him an immediate DFM, what for, I’m buggered if I know, the bomb aimer, he got his leg busted up with shrapnel.
RG: Two hundred miles off course, that’s a bad error wasn’t it, day time as well?
AL: I still, mate of mine was on 626, I didn’t know at the time, but I met him in London, he said, he had to bale out, in a cumulous cloud, which is a big storm cloud, and he said it took him forty-five minutes to get to the ground.
RG: Oh, kept getting blown up on the up drafts and-
AL: The updrafts, were stronger than the downward.
LD: It must have been so cold.
AL: He got back to the squadron the next day, to find all his gear was missing, other crews had gone through it.
RG: Another crew? Oh, truly?
AL: We were in Nissen huts, there was two crews in each hut, is that it, yes, two crews, maybe you’d get a stray, like in our hut, we had a young Tasmanian bloke, that was a rear gunner, I don’t know what happened to him, but, he’d, he’d wake up in the night, sit up and start singing out ‘I’ll be [unclear] you’, [shouts] [laughter] and then he’d flop back down and go to sleep [laughs].
RG: I had a mate in the navy like that, he’d sit bolt upright, shout something, clear as a bell, nonsense and then just, yeh-
AL: You’d have to hope that one of the crews in the place would be there when the, coal delivery got, so you get enough to keep the place warm.
RG: Ok, yep, yep, actually, that’s a thought, talking about the committee of adjustment, when a crew was lost, erm, how the gear was removed or?
AL: Well, the crew got lost, there is, station people would have to take all their gear, and label, so that they knew whose it was, but, if they weren’t quick enough, anybody could get into it and take what they wanted.
RG: And, that did happen, did it?
LD: Oh, really.
AL: Well, I don’t, never heard of it happening on our squadron, but er, that one time in 626, yeah, I was in 12 Squadron which was at Wickenby, about a mile north east of Lincoln, and we used to, it was only a mile away from the pub-
RG: That’s convenient.
AL: We used to go down there, get sozzled and we’d been, briefed to go to Stuttgart three days in a row, and er, I said to the skipper after the third one was aborted, I said to him the next morning ‘anything on?’, he said, ‘I don’t know yet’, so I said, ‘I’m going down the bloody pub, if anything’s on, send Titch down’, so Titch turns up down there, so I was in the bar, I’d only just got a new pint, I used to drink Youngers No 3, black as the ace of spades [laughter], he says, ‘Lofty, we’re on’, I said okay and I downed that pint straight away, and they fed me oxygen half way across France to sober me up, [laughter] they reckon in the briefing, I could put the route written on the chart here and drive a straight line across-
[laughter]
LD: A sober navigator probably is a good idea.
RG: That’s probably not too bad, follow the bloke in front, he probably knows where he’s going.
AL: Maybe, that’s what they gave me the DFM for? [laughs]
[loud laughter]
RG: That’s a thought actually, was there a particular, your DFM citations, are there a particular thing, or event, or was it-?
LD: Just surviving a tour? Which is good enough really.
RG: For your award of the DFM, was there a particular, particular thing for that or-?
AL: Ah, I can’t think at the moment, I’ve got to, do you want to look at it?
RG: Yeh, later on, we’ll finish this first.
AL: It tells you that I was exceptional [emphasis] navigator, I think.
RG: Right.
AL: And it lists a few places where you went, and er, that’s all.
RG: Ok, okay.
AL: So, then, I had the choice, after I got home, I had the choice of going to the Queen to get it or getting the Governor General, well Twitchy McKell was the Governor General at that time, his face never stopped twitching.
[laughter]
AL: Mum, and the wife and I, went to the damn investiture, and er, of course the DFM was the last, and after it was over, I said ‘come on we’re going now’, [background noise] I couldn’t stand to put up with a whole lot more, it was too much, I never did like all that pomp and ceremony.
RG: Neither did I Arthur, I was never good at that, the military bullshit side of the services, not my thing.
AL: Well, I’ve got a grandson, he er, when he was a kid, he wanted to be in the air force like I was, and when he got er, finishing school, he got a scholarship to ADFA and it took him a while, but he decided to go to the army because he could learn more of what he wanted, that he couldn’t in the air force, so, he did mechanical engineering, he’s now a lieutenant colonel.
RG: Hmm, ok, he’s done well.
AL: He’s in Turkey, transferred to the Pommies, because he could learn more there, than he did here, he was a major at the time, and he had to wait a lot longer to get his-
RG: Colonel here.
AL: Than over there, then over here, they offered him a temporary one, to stay here, but er, he said no, and now he’s doing [cough] more ambassadorial work.
RG: Ah, ok, I can think of worse place to be than Turkey. Do you need a need a glass of water Arthur, you sound like you are getting a bit?
AL: Ah, no, that’s just the, way that I am.
RG: Alright, alright.
AL: I’m emotional.
LD: Oh.
RG: Right, erm, now what was I going to say, I know, I was going to ask you about your wife, you met her, she was in the WAAF?
AL: She was a cook.
RG: Ah, yeah, yep.
AL: I met her at Hixon, that was the first place I went to after being on the Isle of Anglesey, and, er, they shifted me from there across to the satellite station where we did more flying, near Hixon, at a place called Seighford just outside Doncaster.
RG: Where’s Hixford, where’s Hixford, whereabouts is Hixford?
AL: Hixon.
RG: Hixon, sorry.
AL: Hixon, near Doncaster.
RG: Ah, ok.
AL: Seighford wasn’t far away, but it was called their satellite station, so that was there, and she was the only Scotty in the cookhouse.
LD: Ah, so, it was that lovely accent that lured you in, was it?
AL: Well, she’d lost most of the accent, because she spent most of the time in the, in England, but er, she still had an accent.
RG: Comes out at times doesn’t it?
AL: Not like the er, niece who, I still keep in touch with, her and her husband have been out here, he came from the Isle of Skye, and broad. Glasgow’s the broadest of the lot.
RG: Oh yeh, yeh.
AL: The Glaswegians.
RG: Where’s your wife from?
AL: Aberdeen.
RG: Aberdeen.
AL: Her father was a railway man, they called him Black Jock because he had a very dark olive complexion, and his hair was snow white [laughs].
[laughter]
RG: Quite a combination.
AL: The first time I went there, I couldn’t, don’t remember understanding much of what he said, [laughter] I was saying yes and no, or something else, I must have put it in the right place.
[laughter]
LD: So how did they feel about her getting involved with, well, an airman to start with, and an Australian airman, that’s you know, maybe a bit difficult for a family?
AL: I don’t know. Dot’s father, her mother died when she was seven years old, and he remarried, they had two sons and a boy, the eldest boy he was a bloody rascal, but his step sister was only four years old, I used to sit her on my shoulder and walk them around Aberdeen-
RG: So, you got on well with the in-laws then?
AL: Oh, I got on well with most of them, but the youngest boy, he insisted on, after we got married, he just stopped speaking with us.
LD: Oh.
AL: And he did it between Dot and I, and during the night he’d go whack [emphasis].
[laughter]
AL: Straight across my face, but he’s still, the only one still alive.
RG: So, did you, sorry, going back to your demob, did you demob in the UK, or did you come back to Australia to demob?
AL: I come back here.
RG: Came back here.
AL: I had no choice, they just said one day, pack up your off to Brighton, oh no, to London it was.
LD: Were you married to Dot at that stage or did you get married afterwards?
AL: No, I married on the 5th of, er, 8th of June ‘45, I wanted to get married earlier but she, Dot, wouldn’t until the war finished and, she had to have a wedding because of her father, you know.
RG: So, did Dot stay, while you got sent off to London and then back to Australia?
AL: Er, no, they just said pack up you’re off, down to er, down to London, hand in your heavy winter gear, and pick up your car keys and er, over to Portsmouth, I think it was, and er, before we left they said you can buy a watch, they had three different prices, we used Longines watches for navigation, all the, all the time, but I bought one, I think for five pound, it finished up going crook with the sea water, eventually, but on one raid, I knocked, knocked me watch somehow on the nav table and it jumped ten minutes.
LD: Oh.
AL: And I said to the skipper ‘we are behind time, thrash those engines’ he didn’t and port outer gave way, it conked out, I said to him, ‘cos it controlled the rear turret.
RG: Oh.
LD: Oh.
RG: The general motor in that one, the hydraulics in that one.
AL: He port outer, controlled the hydraulics of the rear turret.
RG: Oh, okay, I didn’t realise that.
AL: I said to the skipper, we had better go home, don’t want to go near a bloody tough place, with Titch having to operate by hand.
RG: Did you go back on that one? [unclear]
AL: So, we turned around and dumped the bombs in the North Sea and only got back ten minutes before the rest of them.
RG: Right, so you were almost there then? Yeah, God. So, so the port outer controlled the rear, what about the mid upper turret, was that by another?
AL: Not sure, that’s the only one, that’s how I found out it controlled it.
RG: Yeh, okay, I didn’t realise that, I thought they were all inter connected so that, yeah.
LD: Was there any comeback about returning, because I have read of crews who were, sometimes, even accused of LMF for returning?
AL: Well, I would hate to go anywhere without the rear gunner and his turret.
LD: Oh, yes.
AL: Operating one hundred per cent, but it’s a funny feeling, in that turret, you’re twisted sideways and there you are looking out, the tail planes there, your ears, the tail planes there, nothing on this side.
RG: Hmm, a serious place.
AL: Yeh, ‘cos you get in the turret, you shut the door and its locked, you’re the only one that can operate it.
RG: [unclear] We’ve looked into that one a bit [unclear] the rear gunner the you know of and, yeh-
AL: The mid upper gunner panicked on one raid, it was pretty, a lot of flak, a lot of fighters I think were out, and we’re flying, you had to fly straight in the middle, for a minute, from the time you dropped the bomb over, let the bombs out, so that you, the aircraft, you take a photograph, where they landed and he says ‘let’s get out of here’, [emphasis] I said ‘shut up boy, we just got a job to do’, he shut up like a shot then, the skipper thanked me later on.
RG: Hmm, was that the only?
AL: Something like that, just knock your mind off.
RG: Off what you’re doing, is that the only incident you had like that, one of the crew panicking, was that the only incident you had with one of the crew?
AL: Yeah, oh yeah, oh yes, the first raid we were on was to Frankfurt, and we were loaded up with incendiaries, and you could see planes that are flying too low, but go into the ground and burst into flames, they had all the incendiaries and that there, now the officer used to say, ‘come on Lofty have a look out it’s all pretty, see the pretties’, ‘cos the flares they dropped.
RG: Oh, the Pathfinder flares.
AL: The Pathfinders.
LD: The Christmas trees.
AL: They were red, blue, green, red and green, a mixture, they said ‘Oh, it’s pretty’, I said ‘I’m too bloody busy here’, I was shit scared [laughs] but, eventually I got up to look around.
RG: Did you have a look from the astrodome, you said the astrodome, didn’t you for sights?
AL: The astro, a little dome, the astrodome was over the WOPS part.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: I had a dark curtain to pull across, between the pilots, and the pilots and the engineer and myself, so I could use the light, so I switched the light off and then get up, and I’d stand behind them, and I could see what’s going on.
LD: I had wondered how the navigators saw out, because all the pictures I’ve seen, it’s just the navigator in this little dark cubicle, and I wondered how they saw out.
AL: Well, the War Memorial at one time, had a little, thing, as a navigator, for show, [pause] makes out with voices so that you knew what was going on, and I had a look at it and I said oh, nothing like what it was really.
[laughter]
AL: But er, I went through a B17, at one place, and I had to turn sideways, to get through the bomb-
RG: Bomb bay? Truly, they sound like they have more room in them now.
AL: Their bombs, were either side of the walkway, and straight up through the aircraft.
RG: Oh, truly, so you walk through between the bombs.
AL: There was a length, all down underneath, now, back in it, in the Yankee aircraft, you had a belly gunner, you had side gunners, as well as your rear gunner.
RG: Upper.
AL: The rest I’m not sure, who fired the ammunition.
RG: Hmm, they were, heavily, heavily armed weren’t they, they had machine guns.
AL: They’d open fire at anything.
RG: Hmm, they still do.
[laughter]
RG: Seriously.
AL: Even today, my grandson said, ‘the Yanks will not take any notice of anybody’, they’re right, doesn’t matter if they are right or wrong, what they say goes.
RG: And they are very dangerous in weapon practice as at sea, you can’t trust them to take, to obey the rules.
AL: That’s why Afghanistan gone so long.
RG: Hmm, yep, they are not really good at what they do, I don’t think.
LD: My brother worked with the Americans in Vietnam, he was in the navy, he said.
AL: Rubbish?
LD: They were dreadful.
AL: He says you can’t trust them.
RG: No, no, it’s true, so you were Halifaxes then, you were Halifaxes through all of that, what did you do?
AL: The Halifax was only for training.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: Er, they’d taken them out of ops, most of them anyway.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: I remember, I remember another crew, just on a local flight, and I went down into the bomb aimer’s compartment, they had the bed where he lay on, but you could put the back up like a seat [unclear] bomb aimers, low flying over a railway line, just -
[laughter]
LD: I’ve read about the bomb aimers, erm, loading up underneath them, the bomb aimers in Lancs anyway, loading up underneath them with window to try and prevent the shrapnel -
AL: The bomb aimer’s compartment had a bed in it, like, so that you’re there and you looked at your bomb site, which was a bit more, meant that you were elevated than the floor of the aircraft itself, so the only protection you had was the skin of the aircraft, no paddings, that’s why my ears are crook, sitting too close to the engine’
RG: The engine noise, yeah, okay.
AL: I blame the Halifaxes
RG: Sorry?
AL: ‘Cos they, the engines on those were so close to the fuselage.
RG: Oh, okay.
AL: I think, er, some of the jet engines are pretty close to the fuselage in a similar position, today.
RG: Yeah, but they got more padding.
AL: You get into an aircraft today, you can still hear the roar of the jet, even though you’ve got your skin, you’ve got the inner, and that’s probably well-padded anyway.
RG: I’d imagine so, yeah, you can still hear them quite clearly can’t you, they are only just behind you in places too .
AL: The A380-800s is the best.
RG: Hmm, I haven’t flown in one of those yet.
AL: Ooh, business class on those is wonderful.
RG: Oh, I can’t fly business class Arthur [laughs].
[laughter]
LD: Was that when you went over for the memorial?
AL: Yeh.
LD: Oh good, that’s wonderful.
AL: We went from here to-
LD: What a lovely change from a Lanc.
AL: The interesting thing on a 747, they put me, instead of down with them all, they shut me upstairs sitting right behind the cockpit.
RG: Oh yeah, yep.
AL: And, once we got up and settled down the pilots came through and had a yarn to me, and then er, I went into their cabin, when we got to Singapore, and er, the bloke that was looking after me was a wing commander, I think he’s up in Darwin now, he er, took a photo of me in the cabin and then [pause] the 380 from Singapore to England, we had the 380-800 all the way home.
RG: Hmm, comfortable.
AL: Very comfortable.
[laughter]
RG: You hate flying, [laughs] So, Arthur, with your, so, going back to Dot, you came back to Australia at the end of the war, Dot was still over in-
AL: Yeh, they said, that they would have the wives cross here, within six months, some bugger mislaid the papers over there.
RG: Right.
AL: And, the wife was pregnant, so, by the time they got to it, they said she was too far.
RG: Too pregnant to travel?
AL: Into it, to be, to come out here, straight away, so she had the first child over there, I never saw her until she was six months old, just about.
RG: Right, ok, so it was over a year then, before-
AL: Well, she came out, I got here November ‘45, she got here in October ’46.
RG: Right, so nearly a year.
AL: Came out with first Australian, with the first Pommie cricketers after the war.
RG: Oh, okay.
AL: Same ship, same boat as I came over.
RG: Oh, ok, that’s a coincidence isn’t it, yeah, coincidence.
AL: It was a good boat, I got up to it [top bunk?] by the blower.
RG: On either side, oh, okay.
AL: When they said [unclear] and I got all the benefits.
RG: Yeah, it sounds like it, yeah, so did, with er, going back to the missions again, were you, were your aircraft ever hit, or, were you ever hit on a mission, your aircraft?
AL: Ever which?
RG: Hit, were you ever hit?
AL: Ah, the only hit we got, was, I come back from one raid, there was a dent in front of the bomb compartment, you could put your arm up in and not see it.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: That’s all.
RG: That was fairly lucky then, wasn’t it?
AL: Oh, yeah, luckiest man alive [emphasis].
RG: Yeh, I say so.
[laughter]
LD: I think so.
RG: I had a friend here in Canberra, who was erm, a pilot on Stirlings, and he had a lovely photograph of him and his navigator, standing on the wing of their aircraft, and between the engines, there’s a hole where another aircraft dropped a bomb through their wing, between the engines and he reckoned he was the luckiest bloke alive, it missed, but the engines kept running, didn’t stop either one.
AL: Oh, a lot of things happened like that, but er, [coughs] at night time, if you were, you could be flying over the top of somebody, dropped your, dropped your bombs, you could have wiped them out.
RG: Yeah.
LD: And, you wouldn’t know, would you?
AL: There was no guarantee, particularly, in what, in that formation called the gaggle.
LD: Yes, yes.
AL: Because you were in between, and you had an aircraft above you, behind you, below and everything.
RG: Yes, yes.
LD: I’ve also read about the problems, you know, where, once the aircraft released its bombs, it lifts because it loses the weight and I wondered how that would affect that kind of-?
AL: You never felt anything once the bombs, leaving the aircraft, I never felt any reaction.
RG: Right, okay.
AL: Each aircraft had a camera, that was at the back of the bomb bay, so when you flew, er, dropped the bombs, flew straight a little, that took one but never had a lens, er, a lens on, it just had the thing, it would just operate, take a photo, operate again, so there was three four inch-
RG: Yeh, okay.
AL: And I pinched some of them out of the intelligence office before I left the squadron [laughs].
RG: Good cameras?
[laughter]
AL: Oh, I’ve still got them.
[laughter]
AL: Yeah, three of them, one of them, when we bombed the sea wall at West [Cappelle?] to let the water into er, to allow ships and that to get into Rotterdam, and er, you could see, the bombs burst, big four thousand pound a burst, in the water and I reckon the one that I’ve got was the best photograph of the squadron, they enlarged it to three foot square, stuck it up on the wall, but er, there was a wall of water, I reckon, at least thirty, forty feet high, sweeping in to flood the island.
RG: That would be interesting to see.
AL: But, because of the cloud cover, they said, we had to drop down about six thousand feet, well, stupid, bloody pilots they were coming this way, that way and every way to drop their bombs, it’s a wonder there weren’t some accidents.
RG: Yeah, but there were a lot though weren’t there, collisions on the ops?
AL: When we were in different parts, towards the end of the war, they had what they called a Master Bomber, on daylight raids, he would be down about a thousand to fifteen hundred feet, relaying, where to drop bombs, and er, one of the prints I’ve got has got-
RG: You can see the aircraft in it, was he in a Mosquito or something, or was he?
AL: No, in a Lanc.
RG: In a Lanc, right, ok, fifteen hundred feet.
AL: [inaudible] was the Pathfinders too, most of them was er, were Mosquitoes, one of the fellas I went through nav school with, he finished up on them, he was unfortunate, he had a crash and buggered up his hand and he had springs instead of his fingers, back on, keep them straight.
RG: Keep them straight, yeah, that friend of mine here in Canberra, he’s dead now, but he was, he went from Stirlings onto Lancs, and then he said, him and his navigator, they saw a sign up one day, special service, you know, get promoted, he said, why don’t we, it was Pathfinder force, he said, you know, bad decision.
AL: Yeah, Pathfinders wouldn’t have been too bad because, they never had a special time, they had to get, take off, shoot the, drop their flares and back, because all they had was the flares, bit of ammunition in case they had to try and fight their way out.
RG: Hmm, yes, but of course then the bomber streams coming after, everybody’s alerted.
AL: They had to get there before the first bombs were dropped, or just about then, drop their flares. I remember Munich, they dropped two rows of white flares, big bright ones, and I reckon I could see people on the floor, on the ground, even though we were at eight thousand feet and they dropped the coloured flares in between, so they could drop the bombs.
[background noise]
AL: I’ll get er, me box down and you can have a look.
RG: I was gonna ask you Arthur, there’s something, is there any, I guess your stuff, you know log book and whatever has probably all been scanned, and it has been recorded somewhere, but, has it, you’ve got log book and stuff, has it been scanned and kept, because one of the things here is, if you’ve got any documents, or your log book or whatever, we can scan them.
AL: But, I’ve got it all on the computer .
RG: That’ll be really good, it will save us scanning them, so, yeah, that would, would you be happy to transfer those files to?
AL: I can er, send you some, I’ve got a lot, my log books there, I sent a copy of it to er, Wickenby, because the er, the control tower there now is a museum.
RG: Right, ok, yeah.
AL: And, I don’t know how I came into getting into contact with them, the fella that I got hold of first, he said he had a basic, er, computer, but to send them to another woman, called Ann Law, who was one of the curators there, so, they’ve got a copy of the log book, and er, it was through them that I got, the list of the names for, of my crew, I’d forgotten, so er, if you’ve just about finished I’ll show you what I’ve got on there .
RG: Well, we can stop this and have a look, and then do a bit more talking if you are up for that?
[background noise]
[inaudible]
AL: [inaudible] is was not there, when we got there, so it was a hell of a devastating raid, but erm, [background noise] [unclear] wasn’t as bad, but that was the worst of the war, I said that to, Red Cross, requested not to bomb Leipzig again [pause]-
LD: Yeah.
AL: But er, I saw one, one of our own aircraft, go into the Hohenzollern Bridge, at er, [pause] Cologne.
LD: Yes.
[background noise]
AL: Something went wrong, he went over Cologne, turned around and came back, baled his crew out and crashed, crashed his aircraft into the approach to the bridge, I don’t know whether he got out or not, but they did discover there was one of the aircraft of our squadron.
LD: That must have been very hard seeing that.
AL: Oh, er, hard for the people concerned, but er, you don’t think of these things at the time [pause].
LD: I suppose it’s, it’s part of kind of what happens every day, I guess and maybe you just can’t afford to think about it too much?
AL: You couldn’t afford to think of anything, and er, [pause] you’d go mad I suppose if you started thinking about.
LD: Yes, yes.
AL: Whether you are going to come back or not.
LD: Yes, yeah.
[background noise]
RG: I’ll take a copy of your log book as well, your log book has got all the pages.
AL: That’s the log book.
RG: Yeh, do you mind if I take a copy of that?
AL: You can take a copy of it.
[pause]
LD: So, did you go back, [background noise] when you came back to Australia, what it says on the internet anyway, is that you went back to work at the railways.
AL: Yeah.
LD: Erm, but you’d been, you left the railways before you joined the air force, didn’t you?
AL: Oh, no.
LD: No, no, so they held your job for you, did they?
AL: When I went in the air force.
LD: Right, so they held the job for you?
AL: Well, they had to, you know, that was the law.
LD: Yes, yeah.
AL: If you left a job, it was there for you when you came back.
LD: Yeah, yeah.
AL: Whether they liked it or not it didn’t matter [laughter].
LD: Oh, I am sure they were happy to have you back [laughs].
AL: With the railways, on the clerical side, they stipulated that you had to do a hundred words a minute shorthand, and, er, sixty words a minute typing, well, I could never get more than sixty words a minute shorthand, and I couldn’t, I couldn’t use me little fingers, ‘cos I didn’t have time to learn properly, I had to type at work and consequently, I was only using three fingers, and I could type over forty words a minute, it was that, and then, they [pause] got to teach alphabetically, and they told me that I was going from my job, which was a good one, I was very happy in it, not far from home, I had to go right into the city and out again, a bit, to a different department.
LD: So, you moved back to Sydney, is that right, when you came back?
AL: Well, I had to because there was no position in Goulburn.
LD: Right, yeah.
AL: I was, I had to go to Sydney, I went back to the railway and they didn’t know what to do with me for a while, so they stuck me down on one floor, of er, their headquarters, in amongst the court reporters, they were doing a lot of court work.
RG: Oh, okay, yeah.
AL: The stenos, it’s the reporter, he spent ten minutes in the er, in, half an hour to get it typed up, so he talked to the typewriter for half an hour and then he probably only had a few minutes before he went back in to do another stint, I had nothing to do.
[laughter]
RG: It’s hard isn’t it when you’ve got nothing to do, when you’ve got to be somewhere.
AL: So, the younger brother and a cousin were doing their first year at Uni, and the cousin used to get me to type up all his notes.
LD: Oh, yes.
AL: Well, by the time I started he had to get out and do a posting [laughs] I knew more about Psychology than he did.
[loud laughter]
AL: He finished up as the headmaster at Wesley College in Perth.
LD: Ooh.
RG: That’s pretty impressive, yeah.
AL: He was headmaster of Orange High School for years, oh er, he was, yeah, he only died last year, he was in the air force, they stuck him up in the islands, he said some of the islands up there are mud, must be bombers still down in amongst the mud.
RG: Yeah, yah, the North Sea must be absolutely littered with bombs that were ditched on the, yeah.
AL: Japs.
RG: Yeah, yeah, Arthur with the, when you, when the war ended how did you manage it, did you do anything, you know, when your war was over, did you celebrate or how did you feel?
AL: I was in bed, up in Scotland, when VE Day came, middle of the night [laughs] they came to wake you up, ‘War’s over!’ [emphasis] [laughs] but er, I was still over there on VE Day too.
RG: Ah, yeah, you would have been, yeah.
AL: Well, you know, my younger, youngest brother he joined up not long before the end of the war and he became a returned serviceman by taking a, put on a stop boat to Japan.
RG: Oh, right [laughs] yeah, is there anything else you want to ask?
LD: Erm-
RG: Lost track a bit actually.
LD: Yeah, no, no, we are all good. Look one thing I’ve read about, I don’t know how common it was and I think this may not apply to you but, when the Japanese invaded New Guinea, that there were people in Bomber Command who were sent white feathers from Australia, but, you know, by people who were unhappy that they weren’t in New Guinea, thinking that they were having a nice easy run over in Britain, did anything like that ever happen to you or that you know of?
AL: There were some come back from Britain that did go up to New Guinea.
LD: Yes.
AL: But, er, I don’t think they had the equipment?
RG: No, what we mean, is that people, there were people in Australia who thought that the chaps over in Bomber Command were having an easy time, they weren’t here fighting the Japs, did you never heard anything like that at all, the people sent white feathers or anything?
LD: I think you were there sort of, a bit later, so it may have been a little different, I was a bit curious.
AL: I don’t know what goes on with, ‘cos you get politics and everything.
RG: Well, the 9th Division blokes that were still in Tobruk, after the Japanese went, they were getting white feathers sent to them because they were over in Africa having a whale of a time, they were only fighting Rommel, or maybe that was easy, obviously, you know.
AL: Well, my Dad went to Egypt in the first war, I don’t know what, he got very sick, they shipped him home and discharged him, and then he joined up again [laughs].
[laughter]
LD: Oh, he was keen.
[background noise]
RG: I think this is probably about all really.
LD: Yeah.
[background noise]
AL: Ooh, er, every serviceman’s papers, are available, through archives or the War Memorial, I think we paid twenty-five bucks to get a copy.
LD: But, some, it’s getting the, I think what’s really important, is getting this personal experience like you’ve just given, you know, my father never talked about what he did during the war and we knew nothing until dad died and we started having to look and-
AL: This is the first, this is only the second time that I have said anything-
LD: Hmm, yeh, and I guess, I don’t know, maybe?
AL: It’s inbred into you, if you saw as much as action and that, you’d probably never say anything.
RG: No, no, no, I’ve done one of these interviews before, the chap was from Collector, he was a Kokoda veteran, and he’d never told his family a single thing, and er, he was getting quite old and they wanted to know and they asked if I would go and talk to him and he did, and erm, yeah, it was the first time anyone in the family had ever heard anything.
AL: Well, I er, there was one other fella and meself, laid a wreath on the British Bomber Command Memorial, on the Saturday before we came home, I was in the photos and the kids picked me out.
LD: Oh really?
AL: Yeah.
LD: Wow, you were the tall one I suppose? [laughs]
AL: No, it was just all of them in the stand.
LD: Yeah.
AL: They could see me, fourth from the end, fourth row from the back [laughs].
LD: How do you feel about the fact that it took so long, how Bomber Command was treated after war, how, that, that must be very difficult for you?
AL: I don’t know, I’ve never heard anything, but the British memorial was built mostly I think from public subscription, and it used to be on the YouTube, I suppose it still is, er, the way it was designed and that, the build, and er, they’ve had to clean up one lot of graffiti that I know of, but its open, there’s a street outside the green, in Green Park, behind Buckingham Palace and it’s right on, there’s a footpath, and it’s just off the footpath, and er, out the other side of it, is the wall, and there’s a wreath on the wall which was done here.
LD: Oh, right.
RG: Yep, yep, and that specifically for the Australians or for all?
AL: I think it was made in Australia, but on that trip, we had one fella, took a hell of a lot of photographs, and I said to him ‘can you give me a copy of those, some of them’, he says when we’ve finished, he says it’ll all go back to DVA, not a thing.
RG: Not a thing.
LD: Oh, that’s disappointing.
AL: DVA never got a copy of anything, apparently, he scrubbed it off his card, I don’t know, but nobody ever found out why or how.
LD: Oh, that’s a shame.
AL: He’s a cartoonist for the Daily Telegraph.
LD: So, he should know, shouldn’t he.
RG: So, it’s not like he’s not familiar with-
AL: I used to send him emails and he never ever replied, I know they have used him on other jobs.
RG: So, Arthur with the stuff you’ve given us today is there anything, do you want to put anything or any conditions on it, don’t care about any of that, alright [background noise].
AL: You should have a copy of at least, the interview, that the DVA did.
RG: Yeah, yeah, they probably have got a copy of that, yeah.
AL: well, I had a [unclear] computer.
RG: Its gone, it happens.
AL: I had it and one that was done at Duxford, that was on You Tube too.
RG: Yeah, I think I’ve seen that one, actually, or, yeah.
AL: They just disappeared off my computer, my son can’t find it.
RG: Oh, it happens.
AL: It must be in there somewhere.
RG: I work in IT, trust me I understand this [laughs] you can lose stuff in there, you put in somewhere or you think you put it somewhere, and you go to move it all, whatever, you drop it somewhere and you’ve got no idea where you dropped it, it’s still in there, but try and find it, yeah.
AL: Oh, well, I’ve tried to find it for er, what’s her name, at Bomber Command, and I just couldn’t.
RG: Yeh, well I’m sure you will be able to get the one from, well you should be able to get both of those, one from DVA and one from Duxford, they should be able to get those.
AL: Well, she should be able to get a copy of it through DVA.
LD: Yes.
AL: And, the Duxford one, it was done by a private individual.
RG: Ah, okay.
AL: We were going to lunch and he pulled me over, ‘cos one of the women there insisted that I went in this bloody wheelchair [laughs] had this camera there, did this interview with another bloke beside me, and, after he finished, he said that’s on YouTube tonight [laughter].
RG: YouTube is an amazing thing, isn’t it?
AL: YouTube, the last time I looked at, has altered a lot, that DVA interview was in three different sections.
LD: Yes, yes.
AL: And, it was only partial.
RG: Yeah, it depends what people get, what they put up, ‘cos individuals put stuff up, so, somebody’s got it and they put part of it up, yeah, can be all.
AL: If it goes on the YouTube and they say they don’t.
[recording ceased]
[recording commenced]
RG: Erm, I was going to ask you about, you know, a lot of guys seem to have talismans or something, you know, they -
LD: Lucky charms.
RG: Their girlfriend’s stockings or-
AL: Say that again.
RG: They have some sort of lucky charm or-
AL: No [emphasis].
RG: You didn’t do anything like that?
AL: No, [emphasis] what lucky charm’s gonna keep you alive? [laughs]
RG: Fair enough.
LD: Your lucky charm was probably your pilot with all those flying hours.
RG: Yeah.
AL: I don’t know of anybody, don’t know of anybody that, ever had one actually.
RG: Really? Okay.
AL: I’ve never heard of any.
RG: That’s funny ‘cos, there was really, there was a big, there was a hundred and ten thousand of you, or thereabouts, so-
AL: It’s like, you had an autograph book.
RG: I know, I know of one chap that I saw in an interview, he’d just got married before his first op, and he took one of his wife’s stockings, and he said he put it round his neck, and he said he wore it right through all thirty missions, all the time, he never took it off, he sort of, showered with it on and everything.
[laughter]
LD: I’ve read of people not wanting to take off because they said they’ve forgotten their lucky charm.
RG: Forgotten their talisman or something. One Canadian pilot I heard about he always used to get a lucky jumper, used to wear his jumper underneath his, and the crew would always check ‘have you got your jumper on Howard?’ ‘Yep, got the jumper on’, ‘fine, we’ll be okay.’
AL: The only thing I was ever crooked about was, here, they gave us flying boots.
LD: In Australia?
AL: Leather, proper black flying boots, you’d go over to Pommie land and you get these blasted big ones, they might have been leather, but they were more suede and more bulky.
LD: Oh, right.
AL: The Australian made ones, were good sheepskin lined.
RG: And they weren’t?
AL: No, they were warm.
LD: Those flying suits look incredibly bulky.
AL: Yeah, you read somewhere, sometimes, about people with electric flying suits on.
LD/RG: Yes, yeh.
AL: Where were you gonna plug the bloody things in?
LD: Yes, ‘cos I’ve read about the rear gunner and the mid upper having those?
RG: Because they weren’t in the heated part of the-?
AL: No, the mid upper gun, in the Lanc, you went in and you just climbed up onto the seat, your legs, you could see everything there.
RG: It was sort of a little seat, didn’t he, you just sat on that and the legs.
LD: Like a little sling.
RG: But, but, didn’t they, we heard about the, ‘cos the two gunners, because they weren’t in the heated bit of the, ‘cos the cockpit area was heated, wasn’t it?
AL: Well, if you look at the Lanc, there’s models there, I was just directly behind the pilot, then the wireless operator, then a little bit down, the mid upper gunner and then there’s quite a distance between him and the rear gunner, you don’t realise how far the distance between the mid upper gunner and the pilot’s cabin.
RG/LD: Yeah, yeah.
AL: You had the main spar going across and it would be that high and the lower roof, you can imagine how like me [laughter] trying to stop you from banging your head on the top.
LD: ‘Cos they had height restrictions earlier, in the war, when they were recruiting for the RAF, but they relaxed them, later on, basically, when they started losing so many men, but er, yeah-
AL: But, the old Lanc was a terrific kite, I know when, when we did er, the Bomber Command book, I was at the launch of that, er, they put us in a cherry picker, tied us up in a blasted harness, tied to the cherry pickers, inside the building, to put us up so we could touch the front [laughs].
RG: Oh, I get it.
[laughter]
RG: Tell Arthur that your-
AL: I was interviewed by every TV station that day.
RG: Well, there you go.
AL: I was the last one to be, to get in, to get a cup of coffee.
[loud laughter]
RG: You’re so famous, Arthur, you’refamous [laughter] thirsty, but famous.
AL: Only, because, the only way I got to know about the things, was that, [pause] the Monday before Easter in 2012, the granddaughter was working at DVA, she’s a journo, she came along after work, and said, here’s the papers, applications close on Thursday [laughs].
LD: Hurry up grandad.
[laughter]
AL: So, I had to hurry up, and my son took the papers to give to his daughter, so that, er -
RG: To get them in there.
AL: She was in the [unclear] to go, then they put me in there [laughs] they had to knock her out of it [emphasis].
LD: Oh no.
[laughter]
AL: Nepotism.
RG: Well, yes.
AL: But, she’s been on a few trips since, but er, her husband’s a muso, he got his degree in music at the Uni, and to get on in the music world, you have to be in one of the big cities, well, they moved to Melbourne, and the woman that was in charge of things at DVA, apparently, didn’t like her, so she wouldn’t give her a transfer to the Melbourne office, so she had to resign.
RG: Yeah, yeah, that’s a bugger.
AL: She’s, er, I think she’s working for some voluntary company now, oh, she gets about a bit.
[background noise]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Arthur Loudon
Description
An account of the resource
Arthur Loudon was born and raised in Goulburn, New South Wales, Australia. He talks about his early life, jobs and family, before he enlisted in 1943, aged nineteen, into the Royal Australian Air Force. He was trained as a navigator at various stations in Australia, before sailing for England. After further training, he was posted to 12 Squadron, at RAF Wickenby. He talks about the process of crewing up and flying in Lancasters. He describes his trade as a navigator, using H2S and Gee. He took part in 30 operations and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal. He met his wife Dot, a Women’s Auxiliary Air Force member, at RAF Hixon. He talks about life after being demobilised, his large family and his trip to the unveiling of the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park in 2012.
Creator
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Rob Gray
Lucy Davidson
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-05
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Darren Swift
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
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01:45:43 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ALoudonAE160505
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Australian Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Australia
New South Wales
New South Wales--Goulburn
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
England--Yorkshire
England--London
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
1944
12 Squadron
aircrew
crewing up
Distinguished Flying Medal
fear
Gee
H2S
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
navigator
radar
RAF Lindholme
RAF Wickenby
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/855/EStubbsRAWoolgarLA420216-0001.2.jpg
669d550551a6b063c9fb49a1466d5198
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/855/EStubbsRAWoolgarLA420216-0002.2.jpg
a8f6cbfb429c89bebbdffb2dfc505a60
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Woolgar, Reg
Reg Woolgar
R L A Woolgar
Jimmy Woolgar
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Description
An account of the resource
<a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/items/browse?collection=87">17 items</a>. The collection consists of an oral history <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/2148">interview</a> with air gunner Reginald Woolgar DFC (139398 Royal Air Force), correspondence to his father about him being missing in action and subsequently rescued from the sea, his <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/2205">log book</a>, <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/854">service and release book</a> and nine photographs.<br /><br /> He flew operations as an air gunner with 49 and 192 Squadrons.<br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Woolgar and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle. <br /><br />This collection also contains items concerning John William Wilkinson. Additional information on John William Wilkinson is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/125319/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Woolgar, R
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Requires
A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence.
Please scroll down to see all X items in this collection.
Reg ‘Jimmy’ Woolgar was born and schooled in Hove. He began working life as a valuations assistant and was training to be a surveyor, which was interrupted when, in December 1939, he joined the RAF. Although he had aspirations to become a pilot, he trained as a wireless operator/air gunner instead. His wireless operator training was carried out at the wireless training school, RAF Yatesbury. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/849/PWoolgarRLA1609.2.jpg His air gunnery training on Fairy Battle aircraft was conducted at RAF West Freugh. On 15 November 1940 he was promoted to sergeant and posted to No 10 OTU at RAF Upper Heyford. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/87/845/PWoolgarRLA1601.2.jpg Initially flying Anson aircraft and then Hampdens with C Flight, he had his first ‘Lucky Jim’ moment, on 6 February 1941, when his Hampden aircraft was forced to crash land in a field near Cottesmore, in Lincolnshire. The aircraft was written off, but he and the pilot survived with minor injuries. At the end of operational training, instead of going directly onto operasations, he spent the next 5 months as a screen operator instructor. Eventually, on 1 September 1941, he was posted to 49 Squadron, Hampdens, at RAF Scampton https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/852 where his very first operational trip (described as a baptism of fire) was to Berlin. With headwinds going out and coming back, and nil visibility, it was likely the crew would have to bail out. Fortunately, the skipper found a break in the clouds and the aircraft landed wheels down in a field near Louth. The aircraft had to be recovered back to base, transported by road, on a low loader. On another occasion, on a mine laying operation to Oslo Fjord, his aircraft was peppered with anti-aircraft fire, it returned to base with 36 bullet holes in the fuselage and mainplane. A bullet had also passed through the upright of his gun sight while he was looking through it, whilst another tore through his flying suit. The nickname ‘Lucky Jim’ was beginning to stick.
In February 1942, on an operation to Manheim, the port engine, hit by flak, cut dead. Despite jettisoning all superfluous weight, which unfortunately included all the navigation equipment, the aircraft rapidly lost height, and the pilot ditched the aircraft in the English Channel. Whilst the crew had struggled to keep the aircraft airborne, (on a single engine), it had steered on a massive curve and unbeknown to them was headed down the English Channel, before it ditched. The crew scrambled out onto the wing and managed to inflate the dingy, then had to cut the cord attaching the dingy to the aircraft using a pair of nail scissors, moments before it sunk. In the water for hours, the crew thought they were drifting near the Yorkshire coast, but were rescued by a motor anti-submarine boat, much to their surprise, near the Isle of Wight.
Operational flying was intense, Reg would feel wound up before take-off and there was much apprehension on the way out to the target. Often, they flew through intense flak that was sometimes so close they could smell it. There was always a sense of sense of relief once they came away from the target. In between operations, each day was treated as it came along with many off-duty hours spent socialising in the local hostelries https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/853
After his first operational tour (he completed two) he was commissioned and became gunnery leader with 192 Squadron in 100 Group.
After the war ended, he signed on for an extra two years and was posted to Palestine as an air movements staff officer. Luck was again on his side when, one day, he was on his way to an Air Priorities Board Meeting at the King David Hotel when the hotel was bombed, resulting in many army and civilian casualties.
After a short tour in Kenya, as Senior Movements Staff Officer, he returned to Palestine flying with 38 Squadron until August 1947. In his flying career he amassed over 1000 flying hours. For services to his country Reg was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/858
He was released from the RAF in September 1947. Initially employed as an assistant valuations officer, he studied to become a Chartered Surveyor and secured a job as a senior valuer with the City of London. He later became the planning valuer of the city. After 14 years he was made a partner at the firm St Quintin Son and Stanley. Reg retired in 1971.
08 December 1939: Joined RAF as a wireless operator/air gunner
28 August 1940: 145, 3 Wing, RAF Yatesbury - Wireless Operator training
29 October 1940 - 15 November 1940: RAF West Freugh, No 4 Bombing and Gunnery School, flying Battle aircraft
November 1940: Promoted to Sergeant
15 November 1940 - 20 August 1941: RAF Upper Heyford, No 10 Operational Training Unit flying Anson and Hampden aircraft
02 September 1941 - 24 March 1942: RAF Scampton, 49 Squadron, flying Hampden aircraft
28 April 1942 - 24 June 1942: 1485 Target Towing and Gunnery Flight flying Whitley and Wellington aircraft
02 July 1942 – 3 July 1942: RAF Manby, Air Gunnery Instructor Course
4 July – 10 July 1942: RAF Scampton, Air Gunnery Instructor flying Manchester and Oxford aircraft
25 July 1942 – 10 August 1942: RAF Wigsley, Air Gunnery Instructor flying Lancaster aircraft
3 October – 27 October 1942: RAF Sutton Bridge flying Wellington and Hampden aircraft
28 October 1942: RAF Sutton Bridge, Gunnery Leader Course
End of 1942: Awarded RAF Commission
09 Nov 1942 – 18 March 1943: RAF Fulbeck flying Manchester aircraft
14 May 1943 – 11 June 1944: RAF Sutton Bridge flying Wellington aircraft
20 June 1944 – 27 July 1945 RAF Foulsham, 192 Squadron flying Halifax and Wellington aircraft
29 April 1946 – 30 August 1946: Palestine, Air Movements Staff Officer
01 September 1946 – 21 January 1947: Kenya, Senior Movements Staff Officer
30 January1947 – 10 June 1947: Ein Shemer, Palestine, 38 Squadron flying Lancaster aircraft
13 July 1947 139398 Flt Lt RLA Woolgar released from Service.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Royal Air Force
Scampton
[underlined] Lincoln [/underlined]
[underlined] 16.2.42 [/underlined]
Dear Mr Woolgar,
I hope you received my second telegram informing you of your son’s rescue yesterday afternoon. he is now at the Royal Naval Hospital Haslar Portsmouth and will be returning to the squadron within a day or two. I intend to grant him leave when he returns but it is necessary for him to return here first in order to comply with certain formalities.
I must apologise for giving you
[page break]
a serious shock but I am sure you will appreciate that [deleted] will [/deleted] we always try to notify next of kin as soon as possible when our crews are reported as missing – that is to say when we have confirmed that they have not landed anywhere in this country.
Yours sincerely
R Stubbs
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Mr Woolgar
Description
An account of the resource
R Stubbs writes from RAF Scampton to Mr Woolgar informing him that his son has been rescued and is at the Royal Naval Hospital in Portsmouth. He advises that he will be granted leave after he has returned to the squadron.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
R Stubbs
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-02-16
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Steve Baldwin
Format
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Two page handwritten letter
Language
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eng
Type
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Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
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EStubbsRAWoolgarLA420216
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Royal Navy
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Portsmouth
England--Lincolnshire
England--Hampshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-02-16
1942-02-15
1942-02-14
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
air sea rescue
crash
ditching
missing in action
RAF Scampton
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/229/9017/PClarkeC1501.1.jpg
189d5ce3a7812235bcae6ebba1a974d7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Clarke, Charles Henry
Charles Henry Clarke
Charles H Clarke
Charles Clarke
Charles Henry Clarke
Charles H Clarke
C H Clarke
C Clarke
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. Three oral history interviews with Air Commodore Charles Henry Clarke OBE (1923 - 2019) and one photograph. Charles Clarke volunteered for the RAF when he was seventeen and flew operations as a bomb aimer with 619 Squadron from RAF Woodhall Spa. His aircraft was shot down on his 18th operation and he became a prisoner of war. He was held at Stalag Luft 3 and took part in the long march. After the war, he was posted to the Air Ministry for Aircraft Production, and then to the Middle East. He left the RAF as an Air Commodore in 1978. He later became the chairman of the Bomber Command Association.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-06
2016-06-02
2017-03-04
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Clarke, CH
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The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Charles Henry Clarke. One
Description
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Charles volunteered for the RAF when he was 17 and trained as a bomb aimer at RAF North Luffenham. After qualifying, he was posted to 619 Squadron at RAF Woodhall Spa. He was shot down on his 18th operation and he became a prisoner of war. He talks about the conditions in the camp and on the Long March. He discusses his post war RAF career working in Palestine, Aden and Cyprus, his marriage and his work with the Bomber Command memorial.
In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the University of Lincoln.
Creator
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Mick Jeffery
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-08-06
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Cathie Hewitt
Julie Williams
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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eng
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Sound
Identifier
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AClarkeC150806
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
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Great Britain
Poland
England--Lincolnshire
England--Rutland
Poland--Żagań
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00:42:57 audio recording
619 Squadron
Advanced Flying Unit
aircrew
bale out
bomb aimer
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
memorial
prisoner of war
RAF Dumfries
RAF North Luffenham
RAF Woodhall Spa
shot down
Stalag Luft 3
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/199/3334/AAyreJE-Fam170403.2.mp3
c724b060a8aeafd4fba156d258d5ef20
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Ayres, John Edward
John Ayres
John Edward Ayres
John E Ayres
J Ayres
Description
An account of the resource
One oral history interview with the family of John Edward Ayres.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2017-04-03
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Ayres, JE
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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JM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin, the interviewees are members of the family of Mr John Edward Ayres, ex flight engineer with Bomber Command. I have asked Mr Ayres family members to give their names when they make a contribution. The interview is taking place at Mr Ayres home in Hazel Grove, Stockport on the third of April two thousand and seventeen. Judy would you like to start us please
JW: Okay, my name is Judith Elizabeth Wood, I was born Ayres, and erm, my father was born in Westcliff-on-Sea. His mother came from a well to do family and his father was a bricklayer, and they met and fell in love and married within two weeks. They didn’t have any children for a long time, they weren’t sure if they would be able to have any, erm, and then Dad came along in nineteen twenty-five and followed five years later with a sister. And Dad grew up in Westcliffe, but his mother had three houses, she also had one in London and she had one in Folkestone, and also, his mother’s sister had a house in Shoeburyness near Westcliffe, and he used to spend his summers there. Now, his mother lost a younger brother at the end of the first World War at just nineteen, so when the second World War broke out, she had Dad go and work for his uncle who had a market garden, to keep him safe as you can imagine. Her mother had lost three sons in her life, so she didn’t want the same to happen to her. So, he went and worked for his uncle and he was treated just the same as anybody else who worked there, he lived in lodgings. He joined the ATC, very interested in aircraft, when they were working, he used to see, once the war had started, he used to see the aircraft flying, fly out on a mission and fly back again, and they used to count them out and count them in, er, he was very interested in it, aircraft, he knew what they all were, each make and you know, it was something he really enjoyed. While he was working for his uncle he became, eight, no seventeen, he got a letter from Bomber Command, and they said, would you like to volunteer for Bomber Command?
JA: They said what?
JW: Would you like to volunteer for Bomber Command?
JA: Oh, yes
JW: And, he went to his uncle and showed him the letter and said, ‘what do you think’, and his uncle said, ‘well you’re going, aren’t you?’ [laughter] so, that was it, off he went, off to the war. [pause] While he was working for Uncle Bert he was sent to pin out lines for fishing and he was with another lad and they saw a downed Dornier in a field, so they went rushing over to have a look, very excited, and went in the aircraft, sat in it and messed about like boys do, and as they were walking away, a RAF fighter flew over and strafed the Dornier with bullets
JA: Yes
JW: They were using it as target practice, and had it been a couple of minutes earlier they would have been killed
JA: Yes, that’s right
[inaudible]
JW: So, can you take over from where you met Dad, to talk about from when you met Dad, and how old he was, and about him coming home for leave, and also your wedding? Do you want the wedding?
JM: Yes
JW: A little bit because their aircrew paid for their honeymoon [inaudible]
[unknown] State you name, state your name
EA: What now? I’m Edith Grace Ayres. [pause] Oh, I first met John Edward Ayres, when he was, I was sixteen and he was seventeen. I met him through his best friend because he was my previous boyfriend and er, I just took one look at him and thought, oh yes [laughs] so from then on, we became inseparable until he was called up, actually he wasn’t called up, he volunteered didn’t he
JA: yes
EA: And, erm so, he went into the RAF and on his first leave we decided to get engaged, that made me about seventeen and a quarter, John eighteen and a quarter. We were engaged for about two, two and a half years before we actually married and that was all during the war you see, and John said he wanted the war to be over before we got married. However, it was nine days before the end of the war that we were married, the twenty-eighth of April, and war ended on VE Day, it was the eighth of May. And, he’d just gone back off leave from our honeymoon, which incidentally, we spent in London, mainly, because you couldn’t go away to celebrate in seaside places because of the war. And, John was in a Canadian squad, so his Canadian officers, they took us to London and they belonged to a club and they signed us in, which was very nice because we had free drinks and everything, erm, and then John, ‘the wolf’, they called him, because he liked, he was a bit of a womaniser, [laughter] not my John, this John, and he got us tickets for Ingrid Bergman in, oh, what was that film called? Can’t remember the film, but it was very popular, so, we were lucky because he got tickets for us, and that was one of the days of our honeymoon. And then, er, another day we spent in Southall Park, where we lived, south of Middlesex, where they had a big fair going due to the celebrations which were marvellous, and we had a mayor living down our road
JA: That’s right
EA: So, he could get all the lights in the road and a big bonfire going, and then we had games and all sorts of things, enjoyment, but unfortunately, John had gone back off leave from our honeymoon, and then when war was finished, they sent him home for two or three days. Well, in the meantime, my, his sister Janet and I were in Southall Park enjoying all the festivities, so we missed him. We were on our way back down the road and people at their gate said, ‘have you seen your John?’ ‘no’, ‘he’s home you know’, ‘oh’, so we got back to Mums and she said, ‘well go and see if he’s in any of the pubs’, [laughter] because that’s what people were doing in the celebration
JA: I remember the pubs
EA: So, we went, Janet and I, we went to as many pubs that we could think of, and a lot of people were saying, oh you’ve just missed him, he’s just gone, so he’d just gone somewhere else. We never found him, but we had to go back and I was almost in tears by then, at this time. However, the festivities were still going on in the street, twelve o’clock, midnight came, no John, so everybody by then were going home, dispersed, so, I couldn’t settle, so I kept standing at the gate looking down the road for, if he was coming. Eventually, I saw these two figures coming up the road in the distance [laughter] got nearer, and one was John and one was his Dad, but the only thing was, his Dad had John’s hat on, RAF cap
JA: RAF cap
EA: And John had his Dad’s trilby on, and they were holding each other up, and my goodness me, it was such a sight. However, I wasn’t very pleased with him for a little while and he knelt down and he said, ‘please forgive me’, and I said, ‘all my friends had their boyfriends there, and you weren’t there’, however I forgave him, I forgave him in the end and erm, lots of hugs and kisses wasn’t it
JA: Yep, [laughs]
EA: And, that was like VE Day celebrations. But the day we got married, this was ten days prior, all the Canadian crew came to our wedding, and I had a photo taken amongst all these lovely men, you know, and I’ve shown people photos since then, and they say, ‘weren’t they lovely, weren’t you lucky, with all those men’, [laughter] and John was so handsome, ah, it was lovely, a lovely time, although we’d suffered a lot, with doodlebugs and everything, it was a lovely time, and people were polite, they got married earlier than they do these days and erm, it was a different world, completely but it was a lovely world. Everybody looked out for each other, we were on rationings so we learnt to do with food, so nobody was fat and er, it was a lovely time. And then, ooh, it was two years before John was demobbed after the war, and erm, [pause] oh, twenty-eighth of June it was, I can’t remember the year, but it was a couple of years after, must have been nineteen forty-seven, yeh, and they gave him this horrible demob suit [laughter] it was horrible [laughs] and they just sort of, you know like in prison you collect all these suits, in, everybody lines up, well they had to do that and they collected these, they just sort of looked at him and oh yeh you’ll be small, so they gave him a small outfit [inaudible] he didn’t wear it much
JA: No
EA: And it was a little while, it wasn’t, no it wasn’t too long before he got a job with Wall’s ice cream. He had an interview and with his past, and as he was an officer, that stood him in good stead, so he had a good job which he held for forty-two years, until he retired at sixty-three and a bit, wasn’t it, when you retired? Erm, and then he became a works manager in refrigeration, so he was quite important. He put a lot of his ideas on paper, like he designed a log cabin for ice cream er, with his work, he ran the whole work shop, erm
JM: Mrs Ayres, you’ve painted a lovely picture, particularly, particularly of the end of the war, but could I just take you back and ask you a couple of questions? First of all, can you tell me what was it like to be the fiancé of a man on operations, did you worry, did you know what was going on at all?
EA: That’s right, we only knew from the radio when they said some of our aircraft are missing, and when we heard that, John’s Mum said,’ John is not in that, he’s alright’, and it eased me a bit, but I felt sick, you know, how you do if you are going to the dentist or something, butterflies. Every time they announced it before they said so many of our aircraft, we didn’t know, we wouldn’t have known, you know, until a later date, if anything had happened to them, erm, so it was a very worrying time
JM: And, did John talk to you privately about his flying experiences, or did he just keep quiet about it?
EA: He didn’t tell me much, I don’t think he wanted to worry me, erm, he didn’t enforce on, any of the actions, what they did, the things that like he did say was, ‘ooh, I’ve been inoculated’
JA: [laughs]
EA: ‘Don’t touch my arm’, that sort of thing, and he introduced me to one or two of his officers at, he bought home with him at times, erm, which was very nice, I think we went to a hotel once with the, I can’t remember his name, but they were a lovely couple, he was a squadron leader eventually, he stayed in after the war but, John came, he retired, he wanted to come out because we were newly married, we’d only seen each other so many weeks, in that two years you see, and that was a very worrying time but, once he came when he was retired, it was so much easier
JM: Now that you know that the, the, er standing of the men of Bomber Command has changed over the years hasn’t it, because at one time they weren’t very popular for political reasons, now as you’ve done all the family research, has this changed your view of what it was like to be married to a Bomber Command airman?
EA: What do you mean, erm?
JM: Do you think more of them; do you admire them or do you wish that it had never happened? What are your views on the war that Bomber Command was waging on behalf of Britain?
EA: Erm, I didn’t have a lot of thoughts about that really, erm, [pause] as long as he was safe that’s the main thing that was, concerned me a lot, and I knew they were very, very young when they were called up mainly, unless they were in a reserved occupation, so, I didn’t, being young myself and not having, it was a new experience, having the war like, erm, I just took each day at a time and tried to, you know, and think positive like about things
JM: The way in which Bomber Command has been treated by the politicians
EA: What now?
JM: Well, over the years, over the years, particularly with no campaign medal, have you a view on that at all?
EA: Have I?
JM: A view, an opinion on that?
EA: Not really, I erm, I’m afraid I’m not too keen on learning about politics and that, in that respect I’m sort of live and let live, so I didn’t really have a lot of thoughts about it, not really
JM: Okay, thank you very much, that’s very, very helpful, very good thank you
[inaudible]
AO: Anthony Oldham and the grandson of John Ayres, and growing up erm, I think initially as a very young lad, you knew that Grandad had been in the war, and we knew that he’d been in the RAF, when you were very young you didn’t know what exactly he’d done. As you, Grandad was always very keen on aircraft and model making, of all things, and before the war started he told me he used to make and fly model aircraft, a sort of rubber band powered aircraft and there was, he told me occasions where they had gone over fences and disappeared into the distance [laughs] etcetera, etcetera. Now, that was before, that was while the war was on, and while he was, he was working in his reserved occupation, erm, [pause] After that, when I was growing up, you know, he used to make these models and very often they would be of the aircraft that he flew in, he built a Halifax bomber, he built a Lancaster bomber and that in turn made me very interested in making models etcetera, but I was by no means as good as Grandad [laughs] at making them or painting them etcetera. So, erm, I was fascinated sort of from an early age, in what he’d done, er, what have you, but the age of the internet, it’s become a lot easier to find out more, and over, let’s say the last five years or so, I’ve managed to track down the station records of when 427 Squadron was formed, the fact that it was named Lion Squadron, it was sponsored by Metro Goldwyn Mayer, which is MGM, and they got certain benefits by being sponsored by MGM, in that they got free cinema admittance during the war. Going on from that I, I always admired Gramps, in that he was always able to build and make things and what have you, and I think a lot of that came from his training in the RAF as an engineer. He could, he then retrained after the war as a refrigeration engineer and in his later life, designed fridges and all sorts of different things. As a child, he made models for us, I remember at a very early age he made a garage for me etcetera, and so that was, that was very nice to experience as a child. Going back to his war time experiences, Gramps didn’t really talk a lot about it, he’s a quiet person and would sort of, wouldn’t like to be boastful or, or glamorise what was done during the war, but he did tell me several stories along the way. One of which was when he first joined the squadron, 427 Squadron, and, very keen to help out when he first got there, do anything he could, and when the, he wasn’t on this particular op, but he returned, er, the other returning aircraft, where coming in, and one burst into flames on the runway, and my Grandad John went to help and saw a burning body, which, when a body burns, it pulls up into the foetal position and it made him very sick and he regretted ever going to help, which, you know, seeing that sort of thing you can imagine. So, that was one memory that he told us about. Another was actually flying on ops over Germany or France, I’m not sure which, and he was stood up in the astrodome of the Halifax bomber and there was very heavy flak coming in, and the aircraft in front of them exploded and broke up in air, mid-air, and the wing of the Halifax in front of them, flew very quickly, up and over, and was, he said, just feet above my head in the aircraft, and he said he didn’t have even the time to react and warn the skipper to dive or make any manoeuvre, because it literally took his breath away, it was like [intake of breath] you know, erm, so, that was another memory that he had that he passed on to me. Another was, but when they, when they had breakfast in the morning, they knew they were going on ops because they got, I don’t know whether it was an extra egg or an egg, in the morning before they went on ops, which is a bit, you can imagine, once you saw your egg and knew you were going on ops, perhaps you didn’t want to eat it [laughs] He also, er, in later life, I remember him sat in the chair, where he is today and reading a book on Bomber Command, and in turning a pretty pasty white colour, because there was a picture in the book, and the Canadian crews were quite well off, they had, all had cameras and what have you, and took photographs a lot, and, one of the photographs in the book was looking downwards from another Halifax bomber, down onto another Halifax bomber, and the bombs from one Halifax bomber dropping through the wings of the bomber below, and, I could see the shock in his face, and he wondered if it was one of his crew had taken the photograph, because he remembers that happening, so that was another story. Erm, [pause] for myself, personally, erm, I have done quite a lot of research as I mentioned before, and I managed to find the station records for 427 Squadron, its inception in November of nineteen forty-two at Croft. The station records make fascinating reading for anybody, they’re very light hearted when they initially start and there is quite a lot of humour in them, they even describe initiation ceremonies when people became officers, they used to turn the officer upside down, put coal on his boots and stick his feet on the ceiling of the officer’s mess [laughter]
JA: Until one day we turned them upside down and put their backside up on the roof [laughter] that was in the officer’s mess
AO: Yes, that’s right, and this is mentioned in the station records. So, they are quite amusing, but steadily as time passed, they become more and more serious, and I certainly felt while reading them, [pause] the sense of sadness, erm, at the loss of all the men [upset]
[interview paused]
AO: Anthony Oldham, grandson of John Edward Ayres. Another thing that occurred while we were looking into the history of 427 Squadron, er, was that my Mother was contacted by [phone rings]
[interview paused]
AO: Anthony Oldham, grandson of John Edward Ayres During, investigating about how 427 Squadron, I became a member of a number of Facebook groups that cover both 6 Group Bomber Command and 427 Squadron, and my Mother was contacted by a chap called Dennis McCauley, a Canadian who lives in America, in the United States, and er, Dennis, sorry, he contacted my Mother asking about 427 Squadron, if she knew anything about a John Ayres. As it appeared, in his Father’s, what’s the book called?
JM: Logbook?
AO: Logbook, the logbook, and Dennis and I have remained friends to this day. We’ve chatted about various aspects of 427 Squadron, erm, and also, the reasons as to why they were in the same aircraft, and it appears that Grandad was on a, just a test flight basically within that aircraft, but it’s been nice to sort of keep in touch with Dennis over the last, it must be over five years now, erm, and er, he still has a keen interest in RAF and RCAF, and that’s been quite special to me
[interview paused]
AO: Anthony Oldham, grandson of John Edward Ayres. The thing that struck me that Grandad mentioned as well, that even after he had finished ops, he was training other men, erm, when 427 Squadron especially when they’ve transferred to Lancasters, he was training other young men, he said, to die by flying in those aircraft. I think people don’t realise, what struck me during conversations with Grandad, was that, just the operation of the aircraft was so dangerous, you have to remember that they were cutting edge technology then and that things went wrong, and Grandad had a few close calls where he nearly died and he wasn’t even on a bombing raid. There was one occasion where they came into land and overshot the runway and they nearly hit the trees that were well beyond the end of the runway
JA: [laughs]
AO: Only just coming to a standstill just before the trees. On another occasion they was coming in to land, and what used to happen is, while the undercarriage in it up position, they used to put pins in to make sure they didn’t drop and they came into land and because he was with a different pilot, they did things in slightly different ways, and the pilot selected, undercarriage down, and it locked the pins effectively in position, so the aircraft undercarriage wasn’t coming down, so he had to quickly tell the pilot to select up, pull the pins out and then ask him to select down again, and they just came down into a locked position just before they touched the runway. So, again, so many, many accidents and deaths happened and when they weren’t flying ops. My Nan’s cousin died in exactly the same way, in Scotland, during the war, and I think that’s, we did some research into that and exactly where the aircraft went down in Scotland. So, I think just the business of flying bombers in a wartime scenario was dangerous enough without flying over foreign territory and being shot at as well. One thing I missed out during discussing flying over Germany, was that their biggest fear was from night fighters, Messerschmitt 110’s, coming up and underneath Halifax’s where the blind spot was, where they couldn’t see them, although what they said was, that you could just see the glow of the engines occasionally, so going out on those ops was frightening and, there were, there was, many things to be frightened of. The aircraft itself, would it perform? [pause] The flak, seeing the traces come up, the night fighters, and then, if they were damaged were they going to get home, and if they got home were they still going to survive after the crash landing. A very difficult thing, a very difficult thing. After the war, one thing that Grandad mentioned to me was, it was particularly poignant, that you go from being a very respected member of society, you go from being a flying officer, you know, a hero who saves the day, after being demobbed you go back to being just a member of the public, and I think there was a sense from many especially in Bomber Command that they, they’ve never been appreciated and, once they were back in society that everything had just been forgotten, their part and their role, and their sacrifice, and their struggle to survive was forgotten and everything just moved on
JA: Moved on
AO: And I think for a long, long time that was the case and I think still to a degree with Bomber Command that is the case, erm, the fact that there is only a clasp round the campaign medal, was something that they could have done and sorted very easily, but wasn’t, and I think there is much of a fear with politicians that after the campaign, especially the bombing of Dresden and places like that, that it was something to be brushed under the carpet, but what they’re brushing under the carpet is the memory of the people who died. Bomber Commands attrition rate is fifty-five percent
[background noise]
AO: Anthony Oldham, grandson of John Edward Ayres. For part of my Grandad’s ninetieth birthday celebrations we travelled up to Elvington Air museum in Yorkshire, to take Gramps to see the Halifax bomber there, as part of that, ten of the family travelled up to Yorkshire and spent the day at Elvington, visiting it, looking round, and the main part was that, as a family, we got to go on board the Halifax and, see what it was like, and for both myself and my brother, we were shocked at how small the aircraft was in comparison to modern day jets for example, which are very large, very wide bodied. The Halifax bomber was very narrow we thought, how uncomfortable it was and how even from getting from one end of the aircraft to another was difficult. Climbing over the main wing spars in the centre, even getting in the aircraft. My Mother, particularly, found that getting into the aircraft and going up to the front was particularly hair raising. [pause] It was nice to see Grandad in the position that he would have flown in, and I got to stand in the astrodome that he talked about on many missions, and the reason why he was chosen as a member of the crew was because he was shorter, and could stand up clearly in the astrodome to shoot the stars for the navigator if they ever needed to do so, it never apparently happened. The aircraft was [pause] tight, it felt claustrophobic and I can only imagine the hours and hours spent in it were not very pleasurable, just from the point of view of sitting in it, it wasn’t comfy, it was awkward and utilitarian, it was, there was no creature comforts, you know, bearing in mind these guys, spent long periods of time flying to Germany, flying over southern France and back in one hit, you know, we go on aircraft to Spain or the Costa del Sol, and we spend two or three hours in a very comfy aircraft in comparison, and we are only going one way and we moan about it, but these guys flew long distances over enemy territory, gunfire, flak, fighter aircraft and it wasn’t exactly a pleasurable journey, both mentally or physically. The aircraft was, erm, interesting inside, the long ammunition racks down to the rear turret were a particular surprise for me. I was amazed how they were fed into the rear turret, er, it was an interesting visit, it was, it was good to see my Grandad there [inaudible]
JM: How did he react to the?
EA: I think that was one of our reasons
JM: How did he react to being in the Halifax?
AO: As an old hand really, I suppose they spent that much time in it, that they knew it back to front. Even though he was ninety he, you know, he knew exactly where everything was and I suppose that comes with being trained and spending so much time init.
JM: And did the experience trigger any memories or emotions in your Grandad?
AO: Grandad’s always been, erm, not one to show his emotions very much, always very quiet and slightly introverted, so it’s difficult, and I don’t think for people of that time that’s it the thing to do, to show emotion, it was the keep calm and carry on scenario, er, very much so, even when he discussed what happened during the war, there wasn’t a lot of emotion behind it, it was just what you needed to do to carry on and survive, and this seeing it again was just the same really, I think it was just a very manner of fact way of dealing with life and I don’t think it was any different to when he visited it really, again, it’s just what we did, so
JA: [laughs]
JM: And, have these researches altered in any way your perception of your Grandfather, as a man, as a person?
AO: I think, I think, to know and experience how difficult [emphasis] it was probably on a day to day basis, you know, I joked for about having an egg in the morning, but you can imagine that when you got your egg you probably didn’t want to eat it because you thought, oh God, I’m going to have to fly off to Germany or where ever this evening, that pit of the stomach feeling that you get and the anticipation is almost worse than doing it, your there and having to do what you do, its, you know, a, you just have to get on with it and do it, whereas, I think the shock and the horror of it only comes back after. You know, seeing Grandad see a picture in a book and going white forty years later
JM: I get the impression that you admire the self-control that you Grandfather showed, at overcoming fear, the devotion to duty as they say, would you say that, that was something you knew about before the research which has increased, or were you always aware of it?
AO: No, I think, I think it grows as a bigger picture doesn’t it, you get a small part of the story and then you put yourself in those shoes and you think hang on, you know, but until you get a bigger part of the picture, you can’t put yourself in that situation, you, they’re models on a shelf or they’re pictures in a book and they don’t mean anything to you until you think about the day to dayness of it. They’re getting up in the morning and having an egg given to you and thinking, ‘err’, right, I’m off to, off to, where ever tonight and then thinking about how you would feel at that time and I think it’s only when you have the full, a fuller picture, that, that picture builds up and makes you think, that was, that must have just been terrible to think about each day. The fact that, as my Grandad said a long time ago, that was you didn’t get close to other crews, you only got close to your own crew because if you did, they might be gone tomorrow
JA: Yeh
AO: So, the admiration of having to deal with the day to day unpleasantness of it, I think some parts of it were probably very boring, the waiting to go, they’re sat on the airfield waiting for the all clear to go, the flying home, relieved that your flying home, but the boredom of it on the way home, I suppose there was tasks to do wasn’t it, flight engineers, gunner’s etcetera, but, it’s in the dullness, it’s the fear
JA: Yeh
AO: Its being aware of the fear, of doing it
JM: I think that’s a very good point, but I’d just like to just widen it a little bit. Have your researches in anyway affected your view of the air war, the role that Bomber Command played in defeating Nazi Germany?
AO: It was necessary, It was necessary and this is what modern society doesn’t seem to appreciate it, they see, camera guided missiles zooming in on targets with pinpoint accuracy and that just wasn’t the case during the war you know, it was area bombing, it was indiscriminate both, on both sides, but what people fail to remember and think about is the men who were sent to do it, it wasn’t their choice, they’d have rather been sat at home with their families. They did it because that was what was required of them, whereas the people who make decisions on the targeting, they’re, it was they’re responsibility, and that lies ultimately with the politicians, and that is a very, again a, it doesn’t matter if it is modern times or then, politicians make the decisions, and it’s the ordinary people who are left to suffer and not be appreciated, and I think that’s throughout the ages, you know, it’s very convenient for politicians to sweep things under the carpet and forget because it’s not affecting them personally
JM: Thank you. You’ve led this family research and this aspect of your Grandfather’s life, have you given any thoughts to what you would like to see happen to the material which you’ve collected and the information that you’ve garnered?
AO: It should always be there for people to access, for them to find out. Many people won’t because as time moves on people forget things, things become, you know, by the passage of time, people become less close to it, but for those who are interested and want to know, it should be there for them to find
JM: Thank you very much. Judy, could I come back to you for a moment? From a woman’s perspective, could you tell us a little about how these researches have influenced your life?
JW: Erm, its, when we were young it was just part of what we grew up with, the knowledge that Dad had been in the war and everything, but you didn’t think a lot about it because that was how it was, erm, but as I’ve got older and found out more, talking with Anthony over certain things, I can see the unfairness of how it has been sort of blamed on them, the men of Bomber Command and all the bombings and everything, and how the politicians have tried to sort of not talk about it or appreciate the men who took a chance with their lives and went out there, erm, but they weren’t appreciated. We sent off for the medal for Dad recently
AO: The clasp
JW: Yeh, the clasp, and I was shocked at how awful it was and, you know, it was just a horrible little piece of ribbon and it was nothing to show any appreciation of what they’d actually done. And, when Anthony and I went to the Green Park and saw the memorial, and some of the facts that people have attached to the memorial about how many people of Bomber Command have died, just under fifty percent I believe, you know
[unknown] Over
JW: The toss of the dice whether they lived or died and came out of the war, none of that seems to have been appreciated, to me, nobody really in the general public seems to know about it, and to my mind I think it, it would be a good idea if perhaps a little bit of this what happened, was taught in school. Too, youngsters now, say juniors, that kind of age, just to touch on it and make them realise that these men made a sacrifice, the fifty percent that never came back
JA: No
JW: They made the ultimate sacrifice, and then, maybe the youngsters today would know and appreciate just what they did. I’ve heard they’re calling them the golden generation and I think that’s what they were
JM: Thank you Judy. Could I come back finally to you please Mrs Ayres. I would just like to ask you one more, you must be very of the, of the work that your family have done to make sense of your father, er, of your husband’s war service?
EA: Oh, I am, I’ve sat here with my eyes glued to young Anthony here, with his knowledge, how he’s been interested in finding all these facts and knowledge about the past and what his Grandad, you know, had a part of it, erm, he’s always looked up and admired him and he’s always sat there and listened to all his stories. Both the boys, Richard as well, Judy’s other boy, they’ve sat there, opened mouths for hours listening to his stories, which amazed me with the memories that he had of them, he went from one thing to the other, he was such a wonderful brave and you realise how brave, how brave these airmen were. A lot of them, lack of moral fibre, could not take it, but the ones that did were very, very brave and I think this generation should be made aware of what they did for the future generations. Why they here today, how they here today, because of what the men did, in the war, not enough people, there’s not enough said about it I don’t think, I think it should come into school’s history especially, about the three services, not only the army, not only the navy but the aircraft as well, ‘cos I think sometimes the army takes precedence over a lot of the other services. The young services, the RAF is the young service, but, to make a boy interested and perhaps go into the RAF, they should make everything more clear to them of what the men suffered, what the future held for them in the RAF, because it’s amazing, it’s an amazing place because they teach you a lot. John said he learnt more in the RAF than he did at school. I know we were the wrong years, I was thirteen, John was fourteen when war broke out, we missed quite a few years of education, therefore we’re not quite as clever because we missed those years and you never get them back, but not our fault of course, John, he was in the RAF, whereas he could have been in education [unclear] become some professional person, but he couldn’t, but the RAF knowledge he got there did help towards his work and he became a very good engineer as well, he learnt a lot, he told me he learnt more there than at school
JM: On that note, can I on behalf of the International Bomber Command centre, thank you all, Judy, Anthony, Mrs Ayres, you’ve given a very useful and very interesting interview. Thank you very much.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AAyreJE-Fam170403
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with the family of John Edward Ayres
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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00:49:59 audio recording
Creator
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Julian Maslin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-04-03
Description
An account of the resource
The interview is with John’s wife, daughter and grandson.
John was a flight engineer with 427 Squadron. He was born at Westcliff-on-Sea and volunteered for the Royal Air Force when he received a letter from Bomber Command. He had joined the Air Training Corps and had an interest in aircraft. After finishing operations, he trained men when they transferred to Lancasters. He also flew Halifaxes. John demobilised in June 1947 and became a refrigeration engineer.
John’s wife describes how the Canadian crew attended their wedding and helped organise their honeymoon nine days before the war ended.
The family observe that John rarely discussed his wartime experiences; he did what had to be done.
John’s grandson recalls John’s love of model aircraft and shares his own research on 427 Squadron. He notes how the station records became more serious as the war progressed and losses grew. He recounts some of the stories John told him and how John was shocked by a photograph in a book, which recorded an incident he had experienced. He comments on the dangers they faced outside and during operations.
The family visited Yorkshire Air Museum for John’s 90th birthday and went in a Halifax, which is described as narrow and uncomfortable.
The family expresses their views about Bomber Command and the role it played.
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Sally Coulter
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05-08
1947-06
427 Squadron
6 Group
aircrew
fear
flight engineer
Halifax
Lancaster
love and romance
memorial
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/89/873/PCalvertRA1501.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/89/873/PCalvertRA1502.2.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Calvert, Roger
R A Calvert
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Roger Alfred Calvert (b. 1923, 1488619; 152814), his logbook, navigators training course class book and 3 photographs. Roger Calvert was a navigator with 141 Squadron at RAF West Raynham flying Mosquitos on night intruder operations. For most of his operational career his pilot was Flight Lieutenant John Thatcher.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roger Calvert and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Creator
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-24
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Calvert, R
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
B FLIGHT, NO. 3 SQUADRON [RAF crest] NO. 13 I.T.W., JULY, 1942.
CADDICK, D.W. — RELFE, F.A. — FRASER, R.H. — HOLLOWAY, C.C. — GREENBOROUGH, H.C. — TAYLOR, R.F. — BROWN, D.W.G. — THORBY, W.G. — LE FEUVRE, J.B. — AMES, M.B. — KIND, F.K.
CLARK, A.C. — HOPKINS, L.J. — KNOWLES, P.M.G. — CAMPBELL, H.A. — COWKING, J. — JORDAN, J. L. — ROGERS, E.F. — CHAPMAN, P.H. — SIMPSON, W.A. — MILLER, D.H. — PALMER, S.F.
ILLINGWORTH, R.A. — FENN, D.E. — RIDLEY, J.C. — OWEN, R.F.H. — PREWER, D. — TAYLOR, H. — CALVERT, R.A. — FURSMAN, E.F. — MILLER, D.C. —KEMP, N.W.M. — HUMPHRIES, V.J.C. — WILLIAMS, R. — WATSON, C.F. — GREETHAM, S.
BOULTON, A.S. — MC. HUTCHEN, J.G.S. — DUNCAN, G.R.P. — MERRETT, R.J. — HOUGHTON, C.H. — CPL. HALL-LISTER, E.V. — P/O TAYLOR, D.J. — EDWARDS, G.C. — GIBSON, M.J. — SMITH, D.J. — HUBBARD, S. — WARDLE, G. — STOKES, E.S.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
B Flt No 3 Squadron - No 13 ITW
Description
An account of the resource
48 Initial Training Wing recruits and one flight commander officer sitting and standing in four rows with trees and hedge in background. Roger Calvert is seventh from the left in the second row up from the bottom. Captioned with names of recruits. On the reverse 14 signatures.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-07
Format
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One mounted b/w photograph
Language
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eng
Type
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Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PCalvertRA1501
PCalvertRA1502
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Torquay
England--Devon
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-07
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Great Britain. Royal Air Force
Initial Training Wing
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/120/1223/EWilsonGWWilsonEM430117-0002.2.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/120/1223/EWilsonGWWilsonEM430117-0001.2.jpg
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Wilson, George
George Wilson
G W Wilson
Description
An account of the resource
Eight items. The collection consists of letters, documents and photographs related to Sergeant George William Wilson (1580045 Royal Air Force). He was a bomb aimer with 576 Squadron RAF Elsham Wolds. His Lancaster, ND403 took off on a bulls-eye training exercise 12 May 1944 but failed to return. His crew were reported missing, presumed killed. Items include post war correspondence of his surviving relatives and a letter in the event of my death addressed to his wife. <br /><br />The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Andy Smith and catalogued by Carolyn Baker.<br /><br />Additional information on George William Wilson is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/125598/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-02
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
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Wilson, GW
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
Folded paper
[underlined] PRIVATE [/underlined]
[page break]
Sun. 17/1/43
H.P. MANCHESTER
Dear Mother,
[deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] As Im [sic] due for a move, I thought I would write a letter to Irene. I want you to save it and if something should happen to me during this war, I’d like you to give it to Irene. It may sound an odd request but I would like you to humour me. Of course I’m not expecting trouble but one never knows.
Cheerio Ma I will write from the next place.
Keep Smiling
Your F. Son.
[underlined] George [/underlined]
Love to All At Home.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to his mother from George Wilson
Description
An account of the resource
Letter from George Wilson to his mother enclosing a letter to Irene, and asking her to save it and give it to her should anything happen to him. On the reverse 'PRIVATE'.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One handwritten letter
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Correspondence
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
EWilsonGWWilsonEM430117
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-01-17
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
George Wilson
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-01-17
In the event of my death letter
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/39/282/BWilliamsonGRWilliamsonGRv10001.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/39/282/BWilliamsonGRWilliamsonGRv10002.1.jpg
b20df7bba150a07bc3d6aefd6d9cbd4b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Williamson, George Reid
George Reid Williamson
G R Williamson
Description
An account of the resource
Seven items. The collection consists of documents and photographs related to Sergeant George Reid Williamson being shot down over occupied France on 3/4 May 1944, during an operation to Mailly-le-Camp. Items include a memoir of his escape as well as photographs and names of helpers in the French resistance. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Don Hillier and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Bombing, Aerial
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-07-01
Identifier
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Williamson, GR
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[underlined] THE DAY I REVIEWED THE GERMAN ARMY. [/underlined]
On the morning on the 7th May 1944 I was hiding in a wood outside Chateau-Thierry, half starved and desperate and almost dying of exhaustion. Three nights previously I had jumped from a Lancaster bomber shot to pieces by German night fighters during the successful bombing of the Panzer Training School at Maille le Campe [Mailly-le-Camp]. Since then I had been constantly harried by German patrols, sleeping in ditches by day and moving by night. Today I knew I [underlined] must [/underlined] get help.
The farmer working in his field looked up without surprise as I approached him. Dourly he listened as I read from my French phrase book, then with a gesture turned and led the way to the farm-house.
An hour or so later, a little less hungry and with an old three quarter length coat covering my uniform jacket, I was walking towards the town railway station muttering to myself the phrase the farmers wife had drilled into me.
“Un billet simple pour Paris”
“Un billet simple pour Paris”
There was quite a queue at the ticket office and I place myself diffidently at the end trying to look as inconspicuous as possible, but as the ticket window drew nearer and nearer my confidence deserted me and when I caught a glimpse of a german [sic] uniform on the platform I panicked completely and retreated quickly into the street. By this time the sun was blazing fiercely and as I was still wearing my long flying drawers and white polo-neck sweater under my battledress I was in a truly sorry condition. A row of benches against a shady wall offered me temporary respite and I sank gratefully on to one of them. A seven foot wall ran the length of the street on the other side broken only by a large solid wooden gate opposite where I was sitting. And then it happened! A sharp word of command sounded from beyond the wall, the gate swung open and out marched a considerable proportion of the German army – column after column jackbooted and goose-stepping making straight towards me, then wheeling at the last moment and marching on towards the station.
I could have reached out and touched them but I sat there petrified waiting for what seemed the inevitable moment when an eagle eye would notice the Air Force blue of my trousers or the fine fleece-lined shoes
[page break]
I was wearing, but no! to these troops I was no Lili Marlene waiting outside the barracks gate but a nondescript French peasant, too insignificant for them to notice.
For some minutes after the gate was again closed and the last man gone I sat there stunned. Then quickly I got myself out of that town. But some eyes keener than the Germans must have noticed my departure for a mile or so on the road to Paris a youth on a bicycle caught up with me, and from that moment I was under the protection of the French Underground.
A hundred times in the next few months I had narrow escapes in Paris and elsewhere but never one that left me with the same feeling of shock as the day I reviewed the German army.
GEORGE REID WILLIAMSON
30 BRAIDFAULD ST.
[underlined] GLASGOW. E2. [/underlined]
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The day I reviewed the German army
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War (1939-1945)
Description
An account of the resource
The memoir details the events after Sergeant George Reid Williamson baled out of his Lancaster over Chateau-Thierry. After hiding in a wood for a few days, he met a local farmer who took him back to the farmhouse for food and a large overcoat. While trying to reach Paris by train pretending to be a French peasant he narrowly escaped capture while hiding close to a German unit. He quickly left the town and encountered a French boy riding a bicycle, who put him under the protection of the Resistance.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Memoir
Text
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
France--Château-Thierry
France--Mailly-le-Camp
France
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944-05-07
1944-05-03
1944-05-04
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
BWilliamsonGRWilliamsonGRv1
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
George Reid Williamson
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Two page typewritten memoir
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
50 Squadron
bale out
bombing
Bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944)
evading
Lancaster
Resistance
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/571/8839/PFraserDK1607.1.jpg
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/571/8839/AFraserDK161104.1.mp3
fee1470852ea916db2fe36f9a192f8dd
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Fraser, Donald Keith
D K Fraser
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Fraser, DK
Description
An account of the resource
12 items. Two oral history interviews with Warrant Officer Donald Keith Fraser DFM (1924 - 2022, 1566621 Royal Air Force), a memoir, his log book, photographs and service material. The collection also contains an interview with Sylvia Fraser, his wife. He flew a tour of operations as a flight engineer with 101 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Donald Keith Fraser and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
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2016-11-04
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the fourth of November two thousand and sixteen and we’re with Donald Fraser in Whitchurch in Shropshire to talk about his life and times particularly in the RAF. So, Donald what are the first things that you remember in life?
DF: I was born on the twenty fourth of August 1923, at a small place in Fifeshire called Kincardine-on-Forth. We stayed there, my Father was a gamekeeper along with two of his brothers who had come through the First World War and they took on game keeping as their career afterwards. We were there for two years and moved from there, he got, he had head keepers in an estate in Fifeshire, Moray estates, in order to earn more money and he was head forester there. Unfortunately, he was killed by lightning and I was six-year-old, the family at that time was, I had an older brother and sister and the younger two sisters, so there was five in the family, and he was killed on January the tenth, roundabout there, it be 1911 or something, which meant that, it was sad for the family because at that time there wasn’t the same facilities to get at that time. So, Moray estates were very good, they gave my Mother a house in Aberdour, and she stayed there all her life, but it meant [emphasis] that at the age of eight I used to deliver milk in the mornings [laughs] horse, horse and cart and the same in the evenings, in the summer time, and then when I became eleven, I could no longer do that by the same horse and cart, so I joined the cooperative who delivered the milk at half past six in the morning, so I still had time to do delivery before we went to school, and at weekends we used to do delivering groceries and that for the coop, they also, it was interesting because we were in the, the scouts at that time, and the scout leader was a Mr Fisk who had a large house in Aberdour, and he used to invite some of the scouts to go down in the evenings and weekends to do work in his garden. We got four pence an hour it was in old money, four pence an hour and we got that when we’d enough money to make a pound, which took about sixty hours to get a pound. [laughs] So, I joined school going to Aberdour school, and then at the age of eleven, it was two schools, there was Dunfermline school which if you were taking languages you went there, if not you went to tech log school at Burntisland, one was seven miles away to the west and then it was four miles to the east, so we went there and that. I enjoyed school, school was good and I was usually first or second in the class on maths and technical subjects all the time I was at school, however the school people wanted us to go onto university but that wasn’t on [unclear] so I applied, the situation at that time was very similar to it is now, there wasn’t many applications, there wasn’t many jobs available but I was interested in forestry and trees, and also in mechanics, so I applied to a company in Kirkcaldy to see if there was a vacancy in mechanics, there wasn’t, but I also applied to Moray estates and there was a vacancy as a forestry personnel on the estate, so I took that up and of course I stayed there until I joined the RAF. It was interesting and just what I wanted to do and the staff there was two older men who had a lot of knowledge in forestry and they gave us a good insight onto what was happening, and Moray estates it was just on the south, [laughs] north side of the Firth of Forth, and there they had Donibristle House which was always kept fully organised in case they ever wanted to come back there, they only came once or twice a year but all the staff was there all the time, St Colme’s House where all the information was kept on the estate, and in Aberdour opposite the only really good hotel was the large entrance to the [pause] driveway into the estate itself, marvellous entrance for that and it still stands today and that, so that was that
[Tascam noise]
DF: My, because of my age I was a little bit in front of the other people and I went to school that sort of, almost a year earlier which meant that to join the forces, all the ones I was with, was leaving early because I was that little bit, my brother was eighteen months older than me and I was in the same class as him, and so the time came and we were all leaving to go to the forces whatever it was and people used to start asking, ‘why aren’t you going?’ you know, [laughs] not realising we were younger at the time. So, I volunteered for flying duties with the RAF and had the usual examinations and such, I was given the opportunity to start training as a flight engineer because of my, what I said, my mechanical interests, and that was in 19, July 1942. Again, we, our first call on joining was Blackpool, we went to Blackpool and there we stayed for almost a year because we done the mechanics course and then we carried on to be a fitter’s course. Blackpool was a marvellous place to be, really is, the tower was still open and so was the Winter Gardens they were still open at that time, and lower floors not the top floors and so it was interesting to be there. We used to have bath nights twice a year, I think there was about ten thousand RAF people there at the time, and twice a week you had to come in the evenings and join up to go in for a bath or it was a shower in fact, and that happened twice a week from all the different site places in there, and to get to the baths, and it was one of these quick things, in and out [laughs] and that, and we were stationed Montague Street which was in the south, south shore, and we used to do our training at the [pause]
SF: Amusement, amusement park
DF: At the amusement park which is still there today, and we used to do all the training in there, and we used to go by buses from there, out to a small airfield south of Blackpool, which had been [unclear] been turned into areas for training, and we done our training there, and we used to be run back morning and night, on buses, and the landlady was foreign in our house, and she had to supply our breakfast and an evening meal and they were very good, and they used to make me with the same landlady for a year, so we must have done something right. [pause] After Blackpool we went to St Athans to do our flight engineers course, which was supposed to be a six weeks course. When we got there, we were told it was a two weeks course because they were so short of engineers, they had to put us through, so we were doing a twelve-hour day, and it only took a fortnight to get through that, but and then we went to Lindholme, and when we reached Lindholme there were only one aircraft and that wasn’t a Lancaster it was a Halifax, that’s the only time we’d seen or been inside the aircraft. So, we reached Lindholme our crew was already there and they’d been there for quite some time, to go through the usual rules and regulations to be able to fly the heavy aircraft, and we were crewed up with a WL Evans crew, and I remember him, a way of obtaining these people, engineers and all that was everybody was put in a room and there was the pilots there because it was the engineers they were looking for, and the engineers was a case of, you like me and such like, well it must have been that their eyes met and I think that was how [laughs] we joined their crew, in fact he said that he was given instructions from his crew that he had to be back but he had to be bringing a Scottish person back [laughs] and then we done, I had done five hours, five hours flying time when we reached the squadron, 101 Squadron and that was mid-July 1943. Unfortunately, on the way between the, there was two crews with the name of Evans going to the 101 Squadron at the same time, there were sixty crews going but two of them had the name of Evans, AH Evans and WL Evans, and when we reached the squadron, I for some unknown reason was crewed with AH Evans instead of WL, and they asked what we wanted to do and we hadn’t done any flying so it didn’t matter, after a little we said we’ll just leave it and we’ll go with AH Evans, but the other pilot Wally Evans said, ‘no that’s not your, you’re our crew, and you are going to be flying with us,’ so that’s changing all the paperwork, and that’s what happened
[laughter]
DF: We went on our first and second operation the two, the two crews together and the third one we came back but they didn’t, [pause] and that was more or less, I don’t know how you, how you take that, but it was luck or what it was but we are still here today and the other crew, that was how close it was you know, these days, and we stayed on at Ludford, it took us from July forty three until March forty four to do our tour of ops, thirty operations. Now, do you want anything on, on the operations itself?
CB: Yes, what, the useful thing is to know how the crew gelled?
DF: Oh yeah
CB: How you worked and what ever happened on your operations, because thirty is a lot of operations to have done
DF: It is a lot yeah, but well, somehow we were a very good crew, we all gelled together and I never had a glass of beer all the time I was on the station, I said, I not gonna drink at all until we’re finished, funny enough our bomb aimer was the same, he said he wouldn’t drink, so the two of us, the two of us were non-drinkers, but we decided that if we were going to get through we had to work as a team and a certain thing in any team, you’ve got your medal man, whatever you want to call them, and we decided that we should have somebody that could take over the pilots job, somebody could take over the engineer’s and the wireless operator was the difficult one because it was one of these ones that you didn’t get many people who knew the wireless operators job anyway. So, it was decided that the inflight engineer, I would do as far as I could get training, and that’s where we’re talking about the link training, get training on that and so we could fly the aircraft and bring it in if necessary, only, the bomb aimer had started as a navigator but he was ill for a time so he come off that and he came back in as a bomb aimer, so he had the basic treatment and that, on navigation somewhere, he decided that he’d be the one that would take over the navigation. The gunners that didn’t partake as far as the flying the aircraft, well they were surplus to requirement, [laughs] and the bomb aimer also took over the engineer’s job if necessary so we had a people who could switch from one to the other, to keep the, as far as possible, and it worked, it worked very well really, we done a lot of training, I don’t know what the training is, done training and that and everybody, we done what was necessary, we used to when we went to the briefing, we normally, we went there and after the briefing the navigator and that went to do their necessary things, but asked that we went along with them so as we knew the route, and if it was possible on a very clear night, if there’s any objects that we could give as information to, to the crews, there was a navigator such as a right bend on the river was at an angle, something that was obvious you could find out, you used to say well we are just passing so and so now which gave a little bit in the occasion we were on line, where we were and that helped us I think. The other thing was, we decided that we were not there to shoot down fighters, our job was to get to the target and back again, so our gunners was not to fire unless they were being fired on, and during a complete tour never once did our gunners fire at anything for all the thirty operations. We had some narrow escapes, I think the, which we would call part trips which meant we got them back again without any difficulty and we had probably half a dozen raids, other ones would probably get shot up going over, actually we done twelve operations to Berlin out of thirty so we had a good go at the Germans on this, and to most people that was the most dangerous target to be on, especially for the time and all that, but we found that if we could keep putting in the middle of the formation we were safe, it was the stragglers that got out to the side were surely caught by the fighters or the Ack Ack. On many occasions we had one or two big holes in us but not to do a lot of damage, I think it was on our twelfth operation and we ended up in a large thunderstorm and of course you had to go through them, you couldn’t dive out from it and that, you had to go straight through, and at one time we were at twenty thousand feet, the next minute we were down to about four thousand that was how the, the affected us, and round the, inside the aircraft was all the little electric jumping across from side to side and that, and it was quite difficult the fact that it took the two of us, myself and the pilot, to pull us out of the dive we got in, but we managed it about four thousand feet, that was one of the not so nice times. On our twenty first, again to Berlin, we got hit just going into the target by Ack Ack, we had a fire in our starboard inner engine and all our communications went. One of my jobs was to always look out, out for the gunners and if you’re looking back through the aircraft you could see if the guns were working or not, and this time the mid upper guns wasn’t, it was just silent and just lying in the one situation, so I decided after I looked over at the engines, switched off the engine and that, to go back and see what was happening. So, on the way through I collected a portable oxygen bottle and my torch, went back and as I went past the navigator, not the navigator, the wireless operator, I gave him a touch and pointed back, he came back with us and as we reached the middle of the aircraft, here was our upper gunner just get his hands on the rear door, he was just going out without any parachute or any at all, so it seemed to make a lot of sense and took the two of us up all our time to manage to stop him so, getting the door open, however we did and we got him onto the rest bed in the aircraft and he was okay after that, although he was off ops the next morning, he just disappeared from the station, that was one of the bad nights. The other, very bad one I think was, we were caught, it was the seventeenth of December 1943, it was again [laughs] Berlin and this was supposed to be the easiest flight that we’d ever have, [unclear] the weather was just right, there was a heavy fog over the Netherlands, and when we got to Berlin there was just a nice opening where we could drop bombs, turn and come straight back, so it was a straight in and straight out, which meant of course you only got fuel to do that, so it was I think it was a six inch, six hour trip, which meant thirteen, fourteen gallons of fuel, they hadn’t given you any leeway at all. Anyway, when we started off, when we got to the Dutch coast it was bright moonlight
CB: Ah
DF: And instead of fighters, the air fighters mainly on the ground, were all flying, and I think going out to Berlin there was about fifty aircraft that was shot down, we got to, near Berlin and the weather was thick, completely different to what we’d been told, anyway we bombed and on the way back we had a contact from base saying, ‘we were under thick fog, all United Kingdom, east coast was under thick fog, make your way north to Hull,’ didn’t tell us where to go in Hull, just make your way north to Hull, which we did, and the, as we were going along the bomb aimer shouted out, ‘look out I just passed a barrage balloon.’ So, we thought at first that they’d forgot to take them down, so we decided we’d better go inland off the coast in case there’s any more high up still on the coast line, so we turned round and luckily these beacons, controlled beacons, there was two in that area and one of them came on and said, ‘we’ve found you, we know where you are but we can’t see you,’ and the other one said, ‘well, you must be very close to us because you’re very loud, do you want us to put up a searchlight?’ We reported and said, ‘that would be good,’ which they did, but instead of going up in the air it went along the ground, and the first thing the pilot and myself saw was a double storied farm building just in front of us and it must have been just one of these things that happened. So, the, it meant that we were in a few feet of the ground, so it was, in fact it took the two of us to pull, luckily, we were running with a control booster on, normally you wouldn’t if you’re trying to save fuel you wouldn’t, but for some unknown reason I had it on and the aircraft didn’t splutter it just gradually went up and we managed it just like taking a horse over a high jump, managed to just get it over, and the report from the, the rear gunner and this was afterwards not at the time, he had written for some other booklet they was, but he saw, because he was looking back instead of above, what he saw was chickens running from the coop [laughs] in the farmyard [laughs]
[laughter]
DF: And he was pressed over his guns because of the building up [laughter] and we caught our rear wheel on the gate as we were, [laughs] we went through so we decided that we knew then how high we were
[laughter]
DF: So, we decided we’d go back to base rather than play around because we’d probably pick up some better information there, probably get a lucky break, so we went back again and as we’re going along the bomb aimer shouted out, ‘oh I’ve found a, I’ve found the café that we usually go for a coffee in the mornings,’ so that was good, they said well your just, just below us, so we thought well if we turn we’ll get on to the outer ring of the lights, you know, about three miles out we were of the outer ring and airfield, so we got there but flying then about two, two hundred feet but there, the airfield was so close that they were overlapping
CB: Yeah, yeah
DF: So, we came round here thinking we were going to go into our own airfield, somehow we missed that and we kept on and the, we landed in the end at Wickenby, so we landed, we couldn’t ask permission to land, we landed, we thought we were on our own field, the people said, ‘you haven’t landed here where are you?’ You know, so we both looked at each other and thought we’re on the ground aren’t we, [laughs] and then we heard a second voice come on saying, ’this is Wickenby we think somethings landed on our airfield, we can’t see you the fogs so thick, stay where you are and we’ll be with you sometime when we can pick you up,’ and about half an hour later they came and we were on their ground, we got a nights, had some, what do you call it? [pause] meal at that time and we stayed the night there.
[paper rustling]
DF: In the morning [inaudible] tea, got mess there or something. We had a few holes but not too bad so we decided we’d be alright and safe to take it home to Ludford, anyway we tried to start the engines up, they did, they started up, they ran for about anything from two or three minutes and then they all one by one they faded away that was
[unclear whispering]
DF: End up there, [unclear] anyway that was the worst one I think, after that I don’t think we had many bad ones but the case may as you say we had good ones but in that case some bad ones. So, we finished our tour of operations in March 1944 and we’d done our thirty operations, in fact we’d done thirty-one, one was taken as an abortion but we had dropped our bombs on an air plant in Belgium and after when I looked at our operations I decided that would count as one, so if we hadn’t have been counted we had to make the thirty up, we’d have been on the Nuremburg one the following night, so we were lucky. [pause] The crews just, we just parted at that time and until the end of the war we hadn’t any contact with each other at all, but that’s another story, we did find out for some of the crew the time afterwards. But, anyway I was posted to Lindholme to do instructing, but before starting that I went on an instructors course and got an A1 pass, and I went back there, and that were just before D Day and at that time we didn’t know what was happening, but all the, these aircraft that were used for training on was bombed up, but there was only two people as a crew, pilot and engineer, we didn’t know what it was about, and the two of us that was on the crew was, we found out afterwards, that if anything had gone wrong on the landings, that these aircraft would have been used to drop their bombs on whatever was necessary at that time and it was said that we’d have to drop out, bail out before any plane whatever it was necessary, and coming out before it hit the ground, obviously I don’t think we’d have survived, anyway, you wouldn’t survive at two thousand feet, but that was what was happening at that time, luckily it wasn’t necessary, so we didn’t, didn’t go, the bomb was unloaded later on. And, then we, then moved from Lindholme to Cottesmore, no sorry, Bottesford, Bottesford first, and this was August 1943, and as I said before, I was twenty one on the twenty first of August, and we’d just been there for a week and this was our first night out, we decided to have a run round and see what the countryside was like and there was three of us who went that time there was a Jack Molton who up until a few years ago, we were still met each other up, and another person from Scotland he was Jock, Jock Wright, and when we got to Bottesford we were just on, just off the A1 road, and when we got down to, on the main road we decided to, instead of going left to Newark where you go right to Sleaford it took us, so we travelled along there for three or four miles and there was a sign to Marston on the left hand side, well there wasn’t a sign it was just a road in there, and we decided to go down there, and that’s where we made it down to a little place called Marston and there was a pub just on the corner, and that was the first drink I had from joining the RAF, [pause] and after that we seemed to make that our common meeting place. Bottesford was a nice easy going place compared with what we had just been through, and enjoyed our time there training up the other people coming through, and of course VE Day came at the same time we were there, and I was at Buckingham Palace on VE day in London receiving a medal, it was, went down on, my Mother and sister, and my sister Jane they, they came down from Scotland, I met them on the train at Grantham and we went into London, and I think I remember eleven o’clock was the time when we, it was the King at that time of course and everything was over by, just after lunchtime, but my first time in London was [laughs] all in happy moods and that, and my Mother and them stayed in London because we were booked in for that night and I came home on the train late, must have been early evening, back to Grantham and Sylvie was going to meet me there on a bike, but what, what happened is that Marston was a mile off the main road and then you had the main A1 road to London, London that way and north that way, and she was going to bring the bike and pick me up at the end of the lane, anyway she’d asked somebody who worked in Grantham if they had seen an airman walking, and they said no, there wasn’t any airman, and she’d seen one of the lorries with the back open and quite a lot of airmen on it and when they passed her they gave her a normal wave and all this, you know, so she thought that I had got the transport to road end was going home to Bottesford to change and then come back down again, so she came back home, but half an hour, three quarters of an hour after that, her sister get when she was looking out the window said, ‘oh Jock’s,’ I was Jock at that time, ‘Jocks coming down the road there, Sylvie, Jocks coming down the road there,’ and she said, ‘no [emphasis] he can’t be,’ it was, I’d walked all the way from Grantham. [laughs] That was VE day
CB: Right, let’s stop there for a mo.
[interview paused]
CB: Now Donald as you were 101 Squadron, then you were the eighth, you had the eighth man, so who was he and what did he do and how did you link with him?
DF: Yes, our eighth man was part of the crew, he joined us on the first night that ABC was being used, I’ll have to come back to his name
CB: Yeah
DF: But he, he sat just behind the navigator on the Lanc where normally would be the bed for people getting injured and that, and his place was there, and he worked from there, he was just one of the crew, that’s all, we, we had using his [pause]
CB: So, ABC stood for?
DF: ABC
CB: Airborne Cigar
DF: Airborne Cigar
CB: Yeah
DF: Yes, that’s right and
CB: His job, what was his role?
DF: His role was to jam the German night fighters from contact with the ground with instructions, and he done this by jamming on a certain band, outside on the Lancaster was two long spikes, down the way, one in front of the aircraft and one halfway down, and this was his means of contact, and he jammed night fighters, he could speak a little bit of German but he could understand German, and he just jammed the night fighters from that. Unfortunately, by doing that he left the aircraft, the one he was on, the aircraft so they could be contacted by the German fighters that wasn’t involved in that time, and I would, probably the heaviest losses of Bomber Command
CB: Because, in essence, his transmission created a magnet for the night fighter
DF: That’s right
CB: Which was able to lock onto it, was that right?
DF: Yes, they could lock on to us, but we, we were, say on a squadron with twenty-one aircraft on that night, and got the time going through the clouds, save us twenty minutes would be all going well, on 101 Squadron, every minute along the route of covering
CB: Oh right
DF: Of covering the band going to the target, didn’t always work that way because you can’t get people to navigate to that degree in that night, but that was the obvious thing, it was to cover the whole time that they were in the air, and afterwards of course, the squad er, Bomber Command didn’t fly without 101 being there, so we, we had to do a lot more raids and operations than the other squadrons to keep that
CB: And, it was because it was so easy to detect a 101 Squadron Lancaster, that the losses were higher, is that what you’re saying?
DF: That’s right
CB: Right
DF: Much higher than
CB: Now, what did he actually do?
DF: What did he do?
CB: Hmm
DF: He listened for the German ground crews contacting their air fighters, and he jammed that by using the noise from the engines to do it, and he just jammed the
CB: So, there was a microphone in one of the engines, which one was that?
DF: The starboard inner I think it was, and that’s, so that’s what happened, [laughs] but it worked very well for a time and then of course like everything else it, well [emphasis] it was used throughout the war even on VE Day and all that was used, but generally speaking it done some good at times
CB: So, as the flight engineer, you had other things to look after that were electronic, what about your rear scanning detector Monica, how, what did that do and what did you do about it?
DF: Well, we didn’t have Monica on 101, they talked about it and decided that it wasn’t for 101 they would rather be without it, rightly or wrongly but that was, we had the usual, the others, the usual ones that, what do you call it? the little six-inch strips of metal
CB: Oh yeah
DF: [inaudible]
CB: Oh yeah so you had Window
DF: We had Window
CB: And you had H2S or not?
DF: We had H2S, yes
CB: But no other detectors?
DF: No, not really
CB: Right, because Monica had the same problem
DF: That’s right
CB: Of identifying you and that’s why they didn’t want it, was it?
DF: That’s why we didn’t have enough to carry on with
CB: So, just quickly with your special ops man, how, where, was, how did he integrate with the crew and where was he accommodated?
DF: He was accommodated in a little cubby, coming down here, that’s your navigator, here was the wireless operator, he was the next one down there just in there, same as they had, just a desk and that in there, and that was where, on most of the aircraft, was the bed, the, what do you call the bed now?
CB: Yeah
DF: The resting bed
CB: The resting bed
DF: Was there, so it was taken out and his little cubby hole was put in there
CB: Right. And on the ground, was he in your nissen hut or was he somewhere else?
DF: No, he wasn’t in a nissen hut he was somewhere else
CB: And why was that?
DF: I don’t know, they seemed to keep them apart
CB: Hmm, one suggestion was that if they talked in their sleep
DF: Well, I was going to say, one suggestion was that, if they talked in their sleep it might cause some problems, but we had, we didn’t change our one, we had the same person all the time
CB: So, in a social context when you went out as a crew, did he join you?
DF: He joined us at times, yep, which was, I think better than helped to gel the crew together
CB: And what were the ranks in the crew? Were there all NCO’s or was there an officer?
DF: To start with all NCO’s, after about probably seven or eight, the pilot was upgraded to [pause] pilot officer and such like, and I think he was, no he wasn’t squadron leader, he was lieutenant when the crew was finished
CB: At the end of the tour?
DF: End of the tour, yes, he was the only one
CB: Okay
DF: That was commissioned in that time. We were asked afterwards but I went to fly in the RAF not to sit at a desk and such like
CB: So, how did your ranking go during the war time?
DF: The ranking, I came in as a warrant officer, so ended up as a sergeant, flight sergeant, warrant officer and I remember having an interview with the CO of the, what do you call it?, North Luff, Luffenham airfield just before you were demobbed, wondering if we wanted to stay in the RAF, and he gave us some indication of what could happen, at that time they were very short of engineers, ground engineers and funny enough during the time when I was at Cottesmore and that, I had plenty free time so I took on doing the ground engineer’s exam, and I was probably the only aircrew personnel that ever took it, and I got a rating of eighty one percent, so when I came for an interview, whether wanted to stay on or leave, he bought this up and of course I still said I wanted to go back to civvy street, but they promised probably lieutenant or squadron leader or eventually, or another thing we were interested in was the flying and the, the business side of it, the British Airways which at that time was only from Assyria to India somewhere like, which was not much [unclear] so we decided to come out and take up forestry again
CB: Fast backwards to your Berlin raid, there were all sorts of challenges on the battle of Berlin, er, what about searchlights, how often did you and was there any particular incident that was noteworthy?
DF: There was only one as I say, the blue searchlights that was the one that was the main, we had been caught once or twice with other searchlights, they didn’t cause us much damage
CB: So, what happened on this occasion?
DF: Well, as I was saying, we were caught in searchlights, and if you are caught, there’s three of them usually at a time, if you run out of this one the next one caught you and so on, so you were just held in it all the time, and as I say, rays worked in conjunction with the Ack Ack’s, if you were held long enough the guns could pick you off, and that’s what happened to quite a lot of people, we were lucky that somebody below us took
CB: So, what happened, instead of you what else happened?
DF: It was a Halifax aircraft, it was travelling below us, they never reached the same elevation as Lancasters, and all of a sudden it just blew out the sky, it was caught by, we think was [unclear]
CB: What were the relative heights that day?
DF: They would have been about eighteen thousand, we probably about twenty, twenty-one, the distance in travel on two aircraft
CB: And how many of the crew actually saw that incident?
DF: The gunners, myself, that would be all I think, yeah
CB: Right
DF: We reported it on of course on our debriefing afterwards
CB: You talked about the end of the operation, you were awarded the DFM, how was that communicated to you and how did you feel about it?
DF: I don’t think it was communicated to us, I think the first we knew about it was
[Tascam noise]
DF: When we got it in writing saying you had received it, the DFM and would we go to Buckingham Palace on the date, we didn’t know of course it was VE Day at that time, but that was the first, I was quite pleased with what was happening with, we didn’t even know at that time whether the whole crew had got it or not until later on
CB: So, this, this wasn’t at the end of your operational tour at all?
DF: No, no, it came
CB: How much later was that? Where were you at the time?
DF: I think we were at Cottesmore, it must be about, must have been about six months later anyway, at least that
CB: So, you finished your tour erm, in forty-four, middle of forty-four
DF: Yeah, yeah
CB: Then you went to Lindholme
DF: Yeah
CB: Then you went to Bottesford
DF: That’s right
CB: So, how was that working, that at Lindholme you went to Bottesford
DF: Yes, Lindholme
CB: For what reason?
DF: Well, the tour doing [unclear] at Bottesford, as I say went to Lindholme and from there I did this instructor’s course, and then was posted straight when we came back from that to Bottesford. Bottesford before that had been a Lancaster airfield, but it had also been used on D Day by the Americans, and it was in such a mess, it was windows out and all the holes of the firing through the roof and all that sort of thing, I think it was just them they bought and went
CB: What before they left they?
DF: Before they left
CB: So, what were they using the airfield for exactly?
DF: A holding point for the Americans before they went on the D Day landings
CB: The troops?
DF: The troops, yeah
CB: Right
DF: Yeah
CB: So, that was a bit disruptive?
DF: It was
CB: And the crews who you were training at Bottesford, where did they go next?
DF: They went to wherever the casualties were
CB: It was a, it was an OTU was it?
DF: It was a heavy
CB: Conversion
DF: Conversion, yes
CB: Heavy Conversion Unit, right okay
DF: So, they went to the squadrons which were, was requiring aircraft
CB: Right, okay, good. So, you were there until after the, after VE Day?
DF: Yes, and then we went to, after that we went to Cottesmore
CB: Hmm, hmm. What did you go there for?
DF: The same thing, it was just more or less, seemed to be a transfer, Bottesford was a wartime drome, it was closing down
CB: Yeah
DF: So, we went in Bottesford, went to Cottesmore
CB: Yeah
DF: Which was a, which was a
CB: An expansion period airfield
DF: Yeah
CB: Yeah
DF: And after that we went to North Luffenham
CB: Hmm
DF: Didn’t, time, didn’t spend much time at Cottesmore, then we moved on to Luffenham
CB: Another expansion period airfield
DF: That’s right where ever this, was demobbed from there in 19, end of 1946 that was
CB: So, where were you actually demobbed from?
DF: From, some place in London, [pause] somewhere near Paddington, I can’t remember, but it was a London address, I can’t remember
CB: Okay. Right, so you knew you were going to be demobbed in, well in advance, how much notice did you have?
DF: Well, we didn’t have a lot of notice, say, probably knew about a month beforehand, but prior to that what we had been crewed up to go to the Far East with
CB: Tiger Force
DF: Tiger Force, and we were getting ready for going on the week it was VE Day
CB: VJ Day
DF: It was cancelled
CB: Hmm
DF: So, we didn’t go
CB: Right
DF: Luckily. We’d done our training, we used to train on the, on the Trent, going down with a below the levels, but the Lancaster, below the lower levels that are the size of the Trent
CB: What planes were you training on then?
DF: Still Lancasters
CB: Still Lancasters
DF: But we could get it below the levels, bank levels [laughs]
CB: Yeah
DF: It was just flight engineer and the pilot, just the two
CB: Oh right, just the two?
DF: Yeah, I think it was a bit of
CB: Bravado, was it?
DF: [laughs]
CB: Needed a bit of excitement after everything else?
DF: I think, I think that’s true, but it was also a good way of training for what we might be up against with going out there, nothing about it
CB: So, after VJ day, it’s, that’s still some time before you were demobbed, so what did you do then?
DF: We were still doing training, training was kept going but the, the length of training was, well it was just a five-day week at that time, but what we did was to keep the students employed, we had one old aircraft and we, it was working, the engine was working, so we got the students to dismantle the four engines, I think there was about twenty students, there was five on each, dismantled the engine and had to put it back again, they had to run with [unclear] and that was just kept them going for another month or so, extended the time they were on the unit
CB: So, you had the opportunity of staying on
DF: Yes
CB: And er, what was the offer?
DF: The offer was if we stayed on, we could go in as, we’d get a commission and eventually we could possibly reach the grade of squadron leader, I think that what was said
CB: But, you wanted to do what?
DF: I wanted to go back to forestry. So, we demobbed and we went back to our home in Aberdour, we didn’t, it was only for about a fortnight, before that I had been in contact with the, prior to going into the forces when I was eighteen, I’d been in touch with the Royal Botanical Gardens in Edinburgh, to see about becoming a probationer however, the probationers then was only for gardeners sons, and they could become a probationer, and then they done the full course that you do in the university better then on time, they usually do it in the evening, classes and that it, it’s different from going to university and they done the work in the botanics during the day, but they wouldn’t take me because I wasn’t a son of a gardener, however after the war we tried again and by this time we had some very good friends, one who was the scout master as I said, but he was also in the Scottish, Scottish office during the war, he spent a lot of time in Edinburgh, and he got to know one of the professors in the botanic gardens, and I asked him if he could do anything to help us, which he did, and after being demobbed, for, I think about three weeks, we joined the Royal Botanic Gardens as a probationer. [laughs] One of the highlights of that was, at this time, it’s coming off this altogether, but there was a tree forgotten tree, a lost tree Metasequoia, which botanists from China in 1939 had found just the remains of this tree, had been lost for a century or something like that, and he was going to go back out again and see if he could find anymore but the Chinese, he was Chinese, Chinese obviously during the wartime didn’t have any money or anything to do, so he had said he’d seen it in 1939. In 1944, the Americans decided that they would put, give them money to go out back again to see if he could find it, which they did, and he found the tree and collected seeds from it, the seeds went as normally to various botanic gardens throughout the world, and then the UK, twelve seeds came to Edinburgh University, twelve to Cambridge and twelve to Kew, and I was at the botanic gardens in Edinburgh at that time and I got the opportunity to sow these twelve seeds, and now there’s millions of the trees growing, they were propagated afterwards from cuttings and that, so that was one of the major things I think in that [laughs]
CB: So, that’s in Edinburgh
DF: That’s in Edinburgh
CB: Where you were a probationer
DF: Yeah
CB: How long did you do that?
DF: We, we, the idea was to be a probationer and then either go to the rubber or the tea plantations abroad, or if there was any good jobs going in the UK, take that on, the difficulty in that, that the colonies didn’t want the British people after the war, they were doing it all themselves, so that sort of fell through. In the meantime, the Forestry Commission research branch, and it was a mister [pause]
SF: Edwards, was it?
DF: No, [pause] the one before that [pause] anyway he, he was Scottish research officer for the Forestry Commission, and he came in to the botanics one day when I was there, and when you started botanics you had to do a project, the project that I took to do, I had been looking at [unclear] books from the forestry on that and the Christmas trees at that time were in demand, but they had a problem because it was Norway spruce they used, and generally speaking in the spring, those trees got frost damage which spoiled them, but I found it was two different types of trees, one that flushed early and one that flushed later, and what I done when I got to the botanics, I got two thousand cuttings from each type of tree and planted them in pots, and it was when he came there he saw all these pots lying there and said, ‘what’s going on here?’
[phone rings]
DF: He said, ‘oh let’s [inaudible]
[interview paused]
CB: Story there, so you, you were interrupted by the phone
DF: Yeah
CB: Yeah
DF: So, we had these ready cuttings all in
CB: In pots, yeah
SF: [talking on phone]
DF: He came along and said, ‘what’s going on here?’ and one of the other probationers said, ‘well you’d better ask Donald, he’s across there, he’ll tell you,’ so I told him what we were doing, you know, and said, ‘well, do you want to go into research?’ I said, ‘well, I’ll have to think about it,’ he said, ‘well, we’re at the moment looking for people to come and into the Forestry Commission research, we want to increase it after, we done it after the first World War, and the second World War we are going to [unclear] going to increase the whole policy in forestry, we are going to build up more planting then,’ and I said, ‘well give me time to think,’ so we did take another three month and he came in again and said, ‘well if you wish you can start with us anytime you want,’ I said, ‘what’s the duty like?’ ‘good,’ so we left the botanics and joined them, and the first job I was then, was on the [unclear] department, which was travelling the country picking out various plantations of trees, different ages, measuring them up and getting a volume, which was going to be used for all the tables for the future
SF: [inaudible whispering]
DF: So, we measured all the trees up, we used to do that in the summer and then in the winter we used to go back to the office and work out all this, and these tables are still used today
[background noise, cups rattling]
DF: And, about the cuttings, they were sufficient survived and they were by the Forestry Commission and they were planted in a forest in south Scotland, and last I heard about
[loud cup rattling]
CB: [whispers] I’ll do it
DF: Was that
CB: [whispers] Keep talking
[cups rattling]
DF: In 1995
[loud crash and smash]
DF: They were growing and had reached the height of a hundred feet
[loud footsteps]
SF: Thank you
DF: They’d been planted in twenty-five groups, like a chequer board, twenty-five trees in each group, and the last I heard was as I say, in 1995 was still growing, you could still see the chequered in the air in the south forest
[kettle boiling]
CB: So, this was a beginning of a glittering career for you?
DF: It was
CB: So, where did you move from? In the Forestry Commission they moved you about, to where?
DF: In the Forestry Commission, they well, we didn’t move very far, in the Forestry, this I done forty seven, forty eight until we, as I said, we married in 1948, August seven 1948, and after that I asked for a transfer back to a base, and I was given Tulliallan, now Tulliallan is the same place as where I was born I was born in Tulliallan in some, in 1923, and also at that time the manager of Tulliallan nursery was a Mr Simpson and he bought the chickens and hens that my Father sold to him before he left there to go into Fife, now it becomes rather personal this because eventually, we went back to Tulliallan and then
[phone rings continually]
DF: Mr Simpson had been manager of this nursery and acres nursery when he came out the first World War, now at that time
[laughter]
[phone ceases ringing]
DF: The research, here Mr Simpson was the old type of person and he didn’t think that people should have been not in the war at all, his, his son was an objector to it, so when anybody came round there, all his junior staff was people who hadn’t been during the war, in forestry itself was people that had never been, so when research started there, when they went to ask him for something, he just said, no you can’t do this, I’m not going to do that, I don’t think you are the right people to do that. Anyway, I went there and at that time it was a, Ferguson was the name of the research forest at that time, and we had a meeting with him, ‘what do you want to do?’ so I said, ‘I want to do research on nurseries,’ and he’d got it all here. He says, ‘I don’t think you’ll manage to do that,’ and I said, ‘why?’, so, ‘Mr Simpson won’t give us any land, he’s just dead against us,’ and I said, ‘whys that?’, and he said, ‘I don’t know I think it’s probably because we’ve never been to the war,’ so I said, ‘well I’ve never been let down by anybody before, I’ll go and see him.’ So, the research people had been there probably six months and I went to see Mr Simpson and went into his office and he said, ‘I suppose you’re another one of these people,’ I said, ‘what people?’ ‘who’ve never been to the war,’ I said, ‘well I am, I have been it was hard,’ ‘what were you doing in the war?’ ‘flying Lancasters,’ and he jumped off his seat, came round and shook our hand [laughs] and he said, ‘I remember a Mr Fraser, twenty odd years ago being in a lodge down there,’ I said, ‘that was my Father,’ and he said, ‘yeah, I bought his chickens from him,’ [laughs] and I went back to, [unclear sentence] I went back to the research people and said, ‘look we can do anything we want and [unclear] go through with it Mr Simpson,’ ‘how did you manage that?’ I said, ‘just by talking to him,’ and that, and we became great friends and he’d never been on holiday since he went there, and this year, that was the year we were there, he wanted to go away for three weeks, and believe it or not, Sylvie and I went into his house, and looked after his house while he took three weeks holiday, they, they couldn’t think at that without, and we were even there, oh we used to go round and see him and after we left there, you know, that on the way to go round from Fife to Edinburgh, if it was very bad weather, was round the road and across the Kincardine Bridge and back round the other side and that, and we used to go round that way and see him. And, this night, what 1970s, we called round and his missus said, [unclear] ‘Arthur is, he’s had a stroke but he won’t allow me to get the doctor,’ she said, ‘I knew you were coming tonight,’ so I said, well we weren’t, we just because we couldn’t get back to [unclear] ‘I knew you were coming,’ so I said, ‘that’s alright I’ll sort him out, so I went down, got the keys for the office, phoned the doctor and then he went to stay in one of the new towns near Kirkcaldy in Fife, and we saw him until the end. After he died, it must have been 1980 odd, we went to see her when she went back to the west of Scotland with her son, was this time but he was still a known objector to the war, so that was that, a funny situation
CB: You’ve raised a really interesting point here, that the business of LMF, which we’ll come back to, but here you have the situation of a conscientious objector
DF: Yes
CB: And the effect on his father. So, what was his father’s attitude to his son?
DF: Not very good, he didn’t, he didn’t go and
CB: Did he disown him or did he simply
DF: Well, he ignored him
CB: Have nothing to do with him?
DF: But, as I say, after we went, that same year he went to see his son and he spent three weeks with him
CB: And he did what?
DF: He spent three weeks with him on holiday
CB: Oh, I see, with him
DF: With him
CB: Yes
DF: Yeah, so we had sort of sorted that out
CB: The reconciliation took place because of your?
DF: Yes
CB: Very touching
DF: It is very touching
CB: Hmm
DF: There we are. So, so anyway we joined the team at Tulliallan, we done the experiments there on various things within the nursery itself on, weed control was one of the main things, the cost of weed control was enormous because you had people sitting on seed beds, months and months in the summer, just pulling up weeds, so we tried different chemicals and that until we got the right one that would do that we also wanted to make sure that we grew a seedling large enough in one year to transplant, line out, transplant it out after one year, at the moment, at that time it was taking three years instead of one year, so we’d get a plant fit for a forest planting, because the Forestry Commission was going to increase a lot. As a one, a two-year-old plant and believe it or not, after so many years we managed it and they cut, well the chemicals and that helped to cut down the whole system and that
CB: Did you then do cross fertilisation how did you manage to?
DF: Well, the cross fertilisation was another part of it, from then I stayed there until we got a house there in 1950, stayed there until 52 and then the Royal Botanic Gardens in Edinburgh where I’d been previously, they decided they wanted to do experiments for students on forestry, so this landed me very well, and the Edinburgh university, the university bought a small estate outside Edinburgh, south of Edinburgh called Bush estate, and there was the land where they were bringing all their outside interests together, the veterinary college. The potato industry they were doing [unclear] about potatoes, the horticulture, bee keeping, all the departments at the university had an external department out there, and this forestry also wanted, the university wanted a forestry section there to, so I was posted there as a research forester for south east Scotland, and covered the botanic gardens and the Edinburgh university at the same time. We used to teach the students how to grow trees during the summer and Easter holidays and that, they all had to do so much practical work at that time before you could be, take the course, and then built up relations there, I was there for, too 1971, that’s a long time from 53 to 71. We built up a complete structure of research in that area of south Scotland, as you know south Scotland had probably more
[loud bang]
DF: Dukes and Earls and that, then anywhere in the UK across the borders and that, and they got all them interested in the forestry, and so much so, I think you’re talking about cross pollination and that, one of the things we did during the fifties and sixties was select the best trees in the UK
[sound of footsteps]
DF: And we called them plus trees [pause]
[background noise]
CB: We are just going to pause for a mo.
DF: Bills and all that
AM: Yeah
DF: So, they wouldn’t accept that, funny enough, after time, I used to lecture to the schools
AM: Yeah
DF: [laughs] on forestry and tree breeding and that but they wouldn’t accept
[loud stirring of cups]
DF: The Forestry Commission at our house
[loud bang]
DF: Was down in the New Forest
AM: Yeah
DF: And they used to run courses there every year, and one of the courses was on nursery technique to cover the trade and the Forestry Commission nurseries
[background noise]
DF: And who took the courses? But, me [laughs]
CB: But they didn’t accept you because you didn’t have a university degree?
DF: That’s right
CB: Right, there’s obviously a logic in that, but we don’t know what it is [laughs]
AM: You’re not switched on, are you?
CB: Yes
AM: You’re not switched on?
CB: Yeah, we are
AM: Sorry
CB: Right
DF: So, yes, we went to Bush as we said, it was a covered the whole of
CB: Whole of the UK
DF: The UK
CB: Hmm
DF: And, we had selection for plus trees as we called them, that was the tree which was ten percent
[crockery noise]
DF: Better than the trees round about it in any plantation, the straightness of stem can make it a perfect tree to be ten percent better than the others, and we selected these and put a yellow band around them and then we went back later and collected
[crockery noise]
DF: [unclear] material for grafting from these trees, we grafted these trees onto other plants
Unknown female: [inaudible whispering]
DF: Where we, all this as done for the north of England and that was at Bush nursery, I think, Sylvie helped us and with that, that we used to do a whole day grafting and that, on the nursery, four thousand a year we used to do, and this applied for seed orchards being planted within the UK, but all that grafting was done, and I done the whole lot
CB: Fantastic. Just a final one before we pause again. How did you come to move to the south from Edinburgh?
DF: Well, this is later on. I left the Forestry Commission in 1971.
CB: Yeah
DF: For the same reason as you just said, I wasn’t a UK graduate
CB: Right
DF: And I joined the economic forestry group
CB: Right
DF: Which was the
CB: This er
DF: Largest forester group in Europe as their nursery director
CB: Right, right we’ll stop there now
CB: Because that was a commercial enterprise
DF: That’s right, yeah
CB: Yeah. Okay I’m stopping now
[interview paused]
CB: So, we’re talking about change to a commercial world
DF: Yeah
CB: What was the name of the organisation and how did you come to join that?
DF: The economic forestry group was the name of the organisation [pause]
CB: Yeah, and what did you do? Why did you go there?
[paper rustling]
DF: I fell out with the Forestry Commission research branch after all these years, and the same thing as you were talking about before, not being a university graduate. The northern research station was built in the area of Bush and it was finished in 1969. Now, I’d been running the forestry research in east Scotland for twenty odd years, and people just used to call in as they’re going into Edinburgh if they were wanting any advice and that, and just saw me and went to me again, and the research station came and they bought in all the different people on, what er, entomology, pathology, and bought all these heads of department in and they all had offices in there, but, and the people were coming up from the service when they were meant to research. Reception said, ‘oh can I see Donald,’ and the girl in there said, ‘oh no, but you can see doctor so and so,’ ‘oh I don’t want to see him, when will Donald be in?’
[laughter]
DF: ‘oh he’ll be in tonight,’ you know, ‘oh I’ll give him a ring tonight.’ [laughs] And this happened, and they got so fed up with it in there that, and I also had an office in there, and I had a secretary also, they all had to put the, all their requirements through the, this pool doing the typing and all that, [unclear] so I was getting preferential treatment from everybody, and the head was, was in charge of research at that time and he collared me one day and said, ‘look Don we’ve got a problem here, you are being posted to Perthshire,’ I said, ‘I’m not, what reason? Because I says, ‘there’s no research there,’ ‘no it’s to a unit,’ I said, ‘no I’m not,’ I said, ‘well, I joined the Forestry Commission research branch, I’ve got a note to that effect from JB McDonald when we started, you can’t do that,’ ‘well that’s what’s going to happen,’ and I said, ‘well, if that’s what’s going to happen there’s my resignation there now,’ and I left like that, [laughs] so they didn’t even [laughs]
AM: Bit of a shock
SF: Well it was because Brian was only three, I think it was, and I thought, hmm this is going to be interesting [laughs]
DF: So, anyway the forester group had an office in Edinburgh and we’d been dealing with planning with plants anyway, and we knew them quite well, and I was up there on an interview to become one of their managers, area managers, and we were having this interview and the phone went, and this was their headquarters saying did I know they had a vacancy for a nurseryman to take over their nurseries, running the nurseries, I said, ‘no I hadn’t heard anything about it,’ so they said would you like to
SF: Have an interview for that
DF: Interview on that, and I said, ‘yeah,’ and they said, ‘can you go down to,’ where was it? Just outside
SF: Farnham
DF: No, just below Oxford. I said, ‘yeah, I’ll go down tomorrow,’ so I went down
SF: Oh yes
DF: And had the interview, two days later I got the job and that was the start of it, yeah, but it was a, it was a challenging job because economic forestry group at that time, was doing all the planting, you know you could get grants for planting and all this, and a grant for good one thing was ninety percent of that and
SF: Tax
DF: Tax was more or less you were paying ten p in the pound for your forestry and that, and that’s a lot of people doing it and that, but when I joined them they had all different people growing the plants for them which, we were going to be responsible for giving them the best quality plants at the right price, we had to control all that ourselves, so
[phone rings]
CB: Hang on
DF: So, if we were going to control all
SF: [on phone] Hello, yes
DF: The quality we had we had to have it all in our own hands
SF: [on phone] Yes, I’m here
DF: At that time, they had
SF: [on phone] can you hear me now? Yes, I can hear you
DF: Getting, growing procedures to various nurseries throughout, throughout the country, in the north and Northern Ireland, used to grow seven million for them and the various small companies used to supply them with plants, but to me that wasn’t good enough, we were going to be responsible for that, so within two years, at that time we had two nurseries running forestry, one in Scotland in a little mill just outside Perth and one a mile from here just up the road, and that was the two nurseries that belonged to economic forestry group, then another two that was down in Devizes and then Cambridge, which was used for high quality trees and shrubs for the different markets, so we decided that to stop all the contracts we had with Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland decided to take me to court for breaking contracts, which I said, you can’t have no money so [laughs] that, anyway they dropped that so that was seven million we dropped that to sell. Nurses in the north of Scotland was also growing for us, and we cut all these, increased our own volume in our own nurseries, doubled the size of both nurseries and in the end we were growing, the company was using forty million trees a year and I decided we didn’t want to grow forty million and we grew twenty percent less, so we started growing two million of our own stock which gave us a market still market in the [unclear] if it was a bad year for one species we would still be in the market to get that species from other people, and the, that worked very well. The people that didn’t join us afterwards, used to come to say, ‘what provenances of pine do you want?’, I would say, ‘so and so’, ‘oh’, ‘the next time I orders I’ll get that in case you want them,’ ‘so we will probably want them,’ and when it started before that I used to go to the nurseries and say, ‘have you got any Scots pine?,’ ‘yes,’ ‘what origin?’ [laughs] ‘er what origin do you want?’ and I would say, ‘oh [unclear] for the north west,’ ‘oh that’s what they are,’ ‘come off it, can I see your books?’ [laughs] many times it wasn’t the book they give you the sort you wanted, so afterwards we got known as the person that if you wanted anything, contact me, and it was a responsible thing, because we were responsible for the whole of the UK more or less, had we chosen the wrong provenance or anything of these things it would have been disastrous for the private sector and that, because we were selling plants that were planted by our company for their future, you know, but it worked out well. The only time I used to have to, had the possibility of stopping any planting that was being done, if I didn’t think it was the right provenance for that site, which meant a lot of travelling, we used to do fifty thousand miles a year looking at different sites to make sure that the right species and the right provenance was going on. Scot erm, [unclear] spruce was the main species and that was the one that needed all the rain, but it gave the best quality tree in the end, but there was a range of that available from Oregon up to Alaska, right down the west coast of America which meant that if you got, say trees from Washington, half way up, they were very fast growing, but they couldn’t stand the winter frosts on certain sites, on the other hand if you wanted to, to put them on a high elevation to increase your level of trees, get them from Alaska, and you could plant them there, and of course people at that time, didn’t want to have different species but one species on the site, so they could all get off together, so we used to, at the bottom of the valley, probably only put in plants from Washington, and as you go further up Queen Charlotte Islands and at the top just to get the next twenty feet of growth, these high ones from Alaska and that’s what made the difference between these people making a profit and not making a profit. On the other hand, there’s of course, that once they were selected and that, initially the seed was producing something like fifteen, sixteen percent of quality trees per thousand, after the selections were done, and I was talking about plus trees and all that, but that quality went up to sixty percent, and then when the seed orders came in it went up to eighty percent, so eighty percent of the plants planted on the hillside was becoming timber size instead of sixteen percent a few years back, and that’s what saved the UK
CB: Amazing
DF: It is
CB: The erm, you worked on continuously did you or did you, until what age?
DF: I worked on until, I was still working when I was eighty, eighty odd
CB: Right
DF: And even when I retired I joined Booker, who was in agriculture and forestry and became their advisor on forestry for, until they pulled out in two hundred, two thousand and two, I think it was
CB: During your long career in forestry, what papers or books did you produce in support of the cause?
DF: None in that really, no, it’s all just making profits for the company
CB: Yeah. Can we go back now to the wartime? Your experiences include twelve raids on Berlin which at that time was a very difficult time
DF: Yeah, it used to
CB: How did you, how did you feel about those raids?
DF: Well, it was always said at a few, and this came from an office, used to say us, when you joined them, I think they used to say, ‘what do you intend doing?’ and said, ‘flying for thirty ops,’ and said, ‘you’ll be lucky,’ so I said, ‘why?’ he said, ‘well the normal time here is five weeks,’ I said, ‘oh that’s a lot of nonsense, surely,’ so he said, ‘well, we’ll wait and see, but you’re on Berlin tonight,’ and I said, ‘yeah that’s all alright, you know,’ ‘well, if you do Berlin once, you’ve done alright, if you do it twice, you’ve done very good, you won’t do a third time,’ I said, ‘why?’ ‘nobody’s done a third time,’ I said, ‘well I’ll proper show you,’ and that’s the attitude we took. I, I knew, and that in fairness, but if I could get that airplane off the ground with five or six tons of bombs on board, and standing on that in the aircraft with two hundred gallons of fuel in your wings, if we could get off the ground, we’d come back again, and that happened
CB: You were clearly hit by flak quite a number of times?
DF: Yes, oh we were
CB: Did you get engine out more than once?
DF: We had engines out, two, yeah, I would have to look up the book but probably three or four times, once we had two out on the same side, on the starboard side, but we managed to get down and that, and once our undercarriage got hit and it wouldn’t come down but just by doing that, quite a high pull up, it came down, it locked and that allowed us. These things you [unclear] as you went along
CB: Sure. What were the ways of getting the undercarriage down if the hydraulics didn’t do it?
DF: There was a hand, hand
CB: Was that a pneumatic pump or was it a?
DF: It was a hand, yeah you just pumped it back and forwards and that, it wasn’t a very good way of doing it, but I think we all knew how to use it once and other times
CB: One other time?
DF: Yeah
CB: So what sort of damage, other damage did you get to the aircraft?
DF: Well, we often had our communications cut off, but somehow on three or four occasions I managed to get our intercom going again which was the main thing, because even if our oxygen was gone we could come down to ten, ten thousand feet and cope without oxygen so that was alright, you knew you could, the cables were running inside the aircraft, so you, you could sometimes spot where you could do it, and I always carried extra, whatever we could get, bits of string and wires and all that, very good, join up things and that
CB: So, what sort of repairs did you have to do when you were in the aircraft on, on sorties?
DF: It was only small things like that, you could only do, it means sometimes you would see where there was a break in the pipeline, as long as you knew where the pipes were running and that, that’s one thing we studied correct a lot or the heating to your different persons, I mean the, all the heating went into the, underneath the navigator’s seat, it all came from ducts in the engines to there, and he of course would occasionally turn it off because he got too hot, and the other [laughs] members suffered because of that, but the main thing was the mid upper and rear gunner was to, suffered, because temperatures of minus forty, if their suits didn’t work there was a problem
CB: The heated suits?
DF: The heated suits, yeah
CB: As the engineer, what was your, the aircraft is ready to go, brakes off, gathering speed on the runway, what are you doing as the engineer during that period
DF: Well
CB: As you get airborne?
DF: We, we split that up between the pilot and myself
CB: Hmm, hmm
DF: The pilot revved up the engines, as soon as they were at their peak I took over the four throttles
CB: The throttles? Right
DF: And he took, because that was a, took hold of the steering
CB: Hmm, hmm
DF: And he looked after that, I looked after the engines and the programme to push up there, the throttles, and if we was up we weren’t going to get off on time, I would put it through the gate up to the, which I didn’t like doing because it didn’t do any good to your engines
CB: Right, okay
DF: But occasionally
CB: So, this is an important point really because here you are going along needing to get airborne, how soon did you take the throttles after you started rolling?
DF: Just as soon as it started rolling
CB: You did
DF: Yeah
CB: Right, and so you would advance them slowly?
DF: I’d advance them, and advancing the starboard, that little bit
CB: Starboard outer?
DF: Yes, the starboard
CB: To avoid swing?
DF: To avoid a swing
CB: Hmm
DF: And keep it going like that
CB: And then all of them would be level?
DF: That’s right
CB: So, could you take off without going through the gate?
DF: Occasionally, yes if
CB: If you were fully loaded?
DF: Yes, if we weren’t going too far
CB: Hmm
DF: You know
CB: Oh right, so lighter fuel load? Okay. So, when you say going through the gate, what does that actually mean? In terms of, to the engines?
DF: It meant it was going through, up to a different level of speed, the engines were going up, the
CB: So is this
DF: Screaming, screaming at you
CB: Is this purely throttle or have you got a super charger coming in?
DF: Super, it was a super charger coming in
CB: Hmm
DF: Yeah, but I didn’t like doing that
CB: No. So, in practical terms you can get off with that, how soon would you return to ordinary engine power?
DF: When we were off the ground, the next thing we’d be together round the garage shop
CB: Right
DF: And, as soon as that was up then we’d pull our engines back, just too sufficient to keep travelling up to a certain height at the speed which the navigator wanted us to be
CB: Right
DF: You know
CB: So, you take off, you’re out of the gate, what are you doing about engine synchronisation, how are you dealing with that?
DF: Yes, that, that was one of the things that caused a lot of problems, you couldn’t get them synchronised, it took sometimes a little bit of working on them, one and the other to get them, but once you got them synchronised
CB: How do you do synchronising?
DF: Just by listening to the engines, just
CB: And you were adjusting the pitch?
DF: Yeah, a little bit but just touching your throttle now and again, just watching them, yeah, you were level or the noise was acceptable
CB: Hmm,
[unknown coughing]
CB: Because in practical terms, synchronising is avoiding vibration
DF: Yeah, yeah, that’s right
CB: Hmm
DF: But, it could, it was done correct, but going well
CB: You talked about erm, the mid upper gunner in one situation, so what was that? Could you just describe the event and what happened?
DF: Yes, the mid upper gunner, that’s when we lost him, that was, that was a trip to Berlin, I think we were probably half an hour away from the big city itself
CB: On the way there?
DF: And, on the way there, yes
CB: Right
DF: And, we were hit by flak
CB: Hmm, hmm
DF: We lost the starboard inner engine, it went on fire, and we lost all the communication in the aircraft itself, and the, nobody could hear anything at all, and that, so as I said before, I used to take on the job of watching the gunners, because you was looking out the side window and that, you could see the turrets swinging
CB: Yep
DF: Backward and forward, and this day his wasn’t, it was just steady and not moving, so after sorting out the engine problems and that, cutting off the engine, I decided as I said, to go back and have a look and see if he was alright, I thought he’d just hadn’t any communication and he was just wondering what to do, you know, and was sitting in the turret waiting for things to happen, so, as I say when we got back I tapped the wireless operator and he came back with us, and we met him just going out the back door you know, his hand was still just on that, opening the door, which I managed to, well, the way we done it was, I hit him over the arms, was the oxygen bottle I think, otherwise I think he would have beat us you know, and then we got him back onto the bed and that was it
CB: What was his composure or lack of it, what did it look like?
DF: [sighs] A man that was determined to get out, that’s what it appeared to be, and I think what happened, he must have thought that, he had seen the engine on fire, he’d heard nothing throughout the aircraft itself, I think he thought that the orders had been given to abandon the aircraft, but because he probably thought he was the only one that was cut off from the, not hearing, and he was going to make himself out, but he forgot to take his parachute
CB: Hmm, so you and the wireless operator grabbed him, what did you then do?
DF: We, we bought him back to the middle of the aircraft
CB: To the couch?
DF: To the couch
CB: Hmm
DF: And put him there and if I remember right, we put a strap round him just to keep him on the couch and that, and of course we, it had to be reported when we came down, and that was
CB: Right, so when you got down, what did you do first then?
DF: First down, we, we asked for an ambulance and that took him to the
CB: Sick quarters
DF: Sick quarters
CB: Hmm, hmm
DF: And, as I say we didn’t see him after that
CB: Right
DF: We just reported it. The, the, one thing, he’d been taken to hospital and that was the end then
CB: What was the reaction of the rest of the crew, including the pilot?
DF: Not very good, we didn’t think it was necessary, we thought he should be back maybe after two days or something like that, but then we were told that he wouldn’t be back and we weren’t very happy about it but there’s nothing much you can, you can do
CB: No
DF: He’d done twenty-one ops, so I think he was, there couldn’t be much wrong with him if he’d done twenty-one, it wasn’t as if he’d only done one, you know, but there we are that’s how it goes [pause]
CB: And er, to what extent did you as a crew, know what happened to people who were classified LMF?
DF: We didn’t know at all, and I don’t think, somehow, I don’t think we wanted to know
CB: No
DF: To be honest. We, I don’t think we took in what we saw in the morning when we went in for breakfast, when all the empty tables
CB: Empty seat
DF: Empty seats, I don’t think we really took in that was another, well it was two crews, three crews, four crews probably, but for ages that would two men, later two people like yourselves, you know, I don’t think we took that in, probably didn’t want to take it in
CB: No. So, it was a topic that was discussed later or not?
DF: It was one that was never discussed
CB: Right
DF: No, and even when we landed at Wickenby after that, the only two people that knew, a few of us alone was myself and the pilot, we didn’t tell the rest of the crew, but no we never discussed that at all
CB: The [pause] remaining ten ops, you had other people come in, was it ten different people, was it
DF: No, it
CB: Only a small number and how did they integrate?
DF: They integrated very well, there was one came in for four or five, he was just finishing his tour, and then another one, I think on the same situation and I think about two to finish off the tour between them, and it got
CB: How would people like that be on their own?
DF: Probably they were sick the night the aircraft went out and the aircraft was lost
CB: Ah
DF: With a different gunner on or whatever he was, yeah
CB: Right
DF: And that’s why we wouldn’t fly, leaving one of our, without our whole crew
CB: Yeah
DF: Or giving a crew member to another crew
CB: Right
DF: We’d rather all go and that, that was the same situation, but we didn’t get that, so good
CB: But erm, in terms of background knowledge of what happened to LMF people, what did you understand was their fate?
DF: [pause] Something I’ve never thought very much about, but I knew they were taken off operations, I didn’t know what happened to them after that, I probably didn’t want to know [pause]
CB: Okay. Thank you very much
[interview paused]
CB: So, we talked about a huge range of things and one of the points is that you mentioned is that as soon as operations finished, the crew was dispersed, so during war time you didn’t actually meet up at all, but after the war and with the formation of the 101 association, what links did you have with former members of the crew?
DF: Well, the first one was with [pause] the wireless operator. I’d written a small article for the association booklet and his son phoned us up the following week, and said, ‘was I the Donald Fraser who flew with my Father during the war?’ and I said, ‘yes I was,’ and he said to me, ‘well, he’s not very well at the moment but if you’re ever down this way,’ that was to Exeter, ‘call in, and if he’s in good health, we’ll go and see him,’ and I said, ‘well yes, if we come down to Woolacombe,’ that’s just who the lady was on the phone, Sylvie was talking to her, and we said, ‘yes, if we come down we’ll call in,’ which we did, and he was in reasonably good health, and we went to see him and saw him at home, and his wife, and we stayed there about two, two and a half hours and it was an unusual meeting and that, because we hadn’t seen him for probably seventy years, and then we met him the following year, and the year after that his son phoned us to say his father had died, so we went to his funeral and represented the squadron at his funeral
CB: And in those conversations with him, did you open the hangar doors or were you talking about other things in life?
DF: I think we were talking about other things in life
CB: Rather than your war time experiences?
DF: Yeah
SF: I think so, I don’t think you really touched on
DF: No, no. Then funnily enough, some weekends we’d go to a small airfield just outside Shrewsbury here
SF: Sleap
DF: Known as Sleap
CB: Oh, Sleap yes
DF: Yes, and this time, just about Christmas because I was showing them what the Christmas lunch was like during 1943, and I showed them, then this other person that was there said, ‘can I have a look at that?’ I said, ‘yes you can,’ which he did and he said
SF: Yes, but it was because all your crew had signed
DF: Yeah, I was going to say
SF: That
DF: They’d all signed
SF: The brochure or didn’t
DF: The menu
CB: Yes
DF: And they said did they all sign that?’ and I said, ‘yes,’ and he said, ‘well, that one there, Grant, he’s one of our family,’ I said, ‘how do you know that?’ ‘because the way he writes his w and his g’s, ’the whole family used to give him problems at schooling on not using the correct way of writing,’ so it worked out
[paper rustling]
DF: That
CB: That’s Jimmy Grant
DF: That’s Jimmy Grant
CB: Yes
DF: Worked out that the person we see here was, Jimmy Grant was his uncle, and he was [laughs]
CB: Amazing
DF: And we saw him last weekend
CB: Did you? [laughs]
SF: Yes
DF: [laughs] He comes and does a lot of the work within the small, we’ve got a small
SF: Museum
DF: Museum there, he does a lot of work within the museum, framing up things and putting things in [unclear] and all that sort of work, so [laughs]
CB: Perhaps a final question, you said that at the end of your tour, you didn’t know that you had all been awarded DFM’s
DF: No
CB: And, it wasn’t until later that you had a notification, so the first question is, how did that get communicated to you?
DF: Well, it was only to me the one, I didn’t know the whole crew had got it
CB: Right
DF: Until this day, I would never have known, if it hadn’t been, since then we’ve met up with these crews and looking at the photograph of our rear gunner, Len Brooks, who is in there, he told us what happened, when we came, was near to the ground and that, about the chickens and that
CB: Yes
DF: He was in another book and his photograph was there along with one or two others, and I saw the DFM
CB: DFM
DF: Was on
CB: Right
DF: His tunic, so I knew he’d got it also
CB: So then, fast forward to when you went to the palace. What was the process that you went through in order, because this is VE Day?
DF: Yes
CB: And, you go to the palace before the
DF: That’s right
CB: Decoration has been made
DF: Yes, absolutely
CB: So how did that unfold as a day?
DF: As a day, we got the, well I got the train from Grantham, my Mother and sister and that was on it before that, and we got into London about nine o’clock in the morning, and we had to be at Buckingham Palace at just before eleven, which we took a taxi obviously to there, we were there in plenty of time, and there was rows and rows of people taken into a large room, and sat there for a time, and then just on eleven o’clock, the King himself came into the front of the room, and they started then, started to call out names, and we went forward and met him, the usual thing, handshake and ‘what did you do, which squadron were you with?’ I replied, ‘well, 101,’ you know, ‘good, a good squadron,’ something else he said but I can’t remember, just [unclear] and then we got it pinned on and that was it, you know. We, after that, I think, must have been half past twelve or one o’clock, something like that, we left there and I took my sister and Mother to the hotel where they were staying overnight, and I made my way to the station to catch the train back to Grantham and I got there, I suppose early evening didn’t I [laughs] and had to walk
SF: Ooh, no, it was the middle of the afternoon
DF: Was it? Oh, I must have got an earlier train probably a train at three o’clock or something
CB: Did they give you a, how many people were there and were they mixed forces or only airforce, in your batch?
DF: No, all airforce
CB: Oh
DF: No, they were all airforce
CB: Did they give you refreshments afterwards or just say that’s it?
DF: As far I, I can’t, I don’t think we did get any refreshments at all, I think we just did that for a small time, whether that changed because it was VE day or not, I don’t know, but London was wild with
CB: And when you walked out of the palace, then what was the reception?
DF: It was a wild place and there was people everywhere just, mostly just having a good time and that, and of course it got worse as the day went on, well, well we didn’t go back to squadron for I think two days after that
CB: Oh. So, you walk out of the palace, how did you feel about that?
DF: Oh, a little bit of excitement, but quite pleased, I can’t remember much
CB: The pride of Mother and sister
DF: Hmm
SF: And your aunt
DF: Hmm
CB: Thank you
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Donald Keith Fraser, One
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-04
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AFraserDK161104
Conforms To
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Pending review
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Germany
Great Britain
England--Yorkshire
England--Leicestershire
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Berlin
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
Description
An account of the resource
Donald Fraser grew up in Fifeshire, and worked in forestry until he volunteered into the RAF in 1942, aged eighteen. He trained as a flight engineer and completed a tour of operations with 101 Squadron. He recalls operations to Berlin, being hit by anti-aircraft fire, how the mid upper gunner tried to jump from the aircraft, and landing in the wrong airfield in the fog. After he completed his tour he became an instructor, and before he was demobbed he was offered a commission but decided to return to forestry work. He talks extensively about his career working in forestry until his retirement in his eighties and about meeting up with some of his crew seventy years after the war.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:59:40 audio recording
101 Squadron
aircrew
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
Distinguished Flying Medal
flight engineer
Lancaster
RAF Bottesford
RAF Lindholme
RAF Ludford Magna
RAF St Athan
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/509/8411/ADobleRG151117.1.mp3
445d6be24eaf87a7eca4d9a422544675
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Doble, Ronald George
R G Doble
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Doble, RG
Description
An account of the resource
13 items. An oral history interview with Ronald George Doble (3030256 Royal Air Force) his log book, service documents and photographs. George Doble served as a wireless operator / air gunner with 97 Squadron
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-17
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Requires
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Andrew St.Denis
Sergeant Ronald Doble – 3030256. Was born in London and initially served in the Air Training Corp, No,336 Squadron before joining the RAF aged 18, towards the end of WWII. Starting training for Radio Operator and Air Gunner, but switching to focus on Gunnery, this was on Wellington’s at Morton-in-Marsh. Completing training at No.1660 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Swinderby and then No.1653 HCU at RAF Lindholme, both in Lancaster’s the war in Europe had finished. Joining No.97 Squadron at RAF Hemswell, flying in Lincoln’s he flew as a rear gunner and took part in equipment tests such as Rebecca/Eureka, Radio Navigation equipment. After leaving the RAF Ronald entered an apprenticeship as a panel neater, building body’s for Talbots and Sunbeams at Rootes Group.
Factual ‘CV’
20 August 1945 – 9 November 1945: No 2 Air Gunnery School at RAF Dalcross – Aircraft: Wellington.
10 November 1945 - 1 November 1946: 21 Operational Training Unit at Moreton-in-Marsh – Aircraft: Unknown.
1 November 1946 – 9 November 1946: 1660 HCU at RAF Swinderby – Aircraft: Lancaster.
10 November 1946 – 26 March 1947: 1653 HCU at RAF Lindholme – Aircraft: Lancaster.
27 March 1947 – 1 July 1947: 97 Squadron at RAF Hemswell, Lincolnshire – Aircraft: Lincoln.
Biography
Born in Hammersmith, London to a working-class family, Ronald George Doble recounts his service in the RAF before leaving in 1947. Doble left school, aged thirteen, to work behind a guillotine cutting metal. Upon witnessing the bombing of London during the Second World War, Doble joined the fire watchers, tasked with dealing with the fallout of oil bombs before making the choice to join the RAF, beginning at the Air Training corps. Soon after he was sent to Grove court air crew receiving centre. Here he recalls a memory of a group of him and his new friends playing around with a mess tin which flew through the window and fall onto a flight sergeant with fifty men on parade. Doble was then sent to Yatesbury, where he was picked up as a wireless operator air gunner, undergoing a nine-month course.
Finding that there was no longer any use for his position, Doble went to Clapham, London where he took an educational course in preparation for taking the aptitude test at RAF Regiment Locking. Upon passing the test, he was posted to the Initial Training Wing at Bridgenorth. Once completing training at Bridgenorth, Doble was moved to Dalcross Air Gunnery school before proceeding to move to Moreton-in-Marsh, 21 operational training unit, then to the 1965 HCU and then finally ending up in Hemswell in Lincolnshire. However, when he and other gunners began to be de-ranked, they made the decision to leave the RAF and chose to continue an apprenticeship in Filey, making Sunbeams, Talbots, and Humbers Bodies. Within this job, Doble would get lead poisoning before being left without a job and finishing his career as a panel beater on car repairs in Haddenham.
This collection including an oral interview, with reference to stories ranging from attempting to carry a piano out of a building during a bomb attack and getting stuck and running out of oxygen whilst attempting to do a drogue firing. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/8411 There are also multiple photographs detailing the different services he was part of and the men he served with, as well as some of the aircrafts he flew. One such photograph shows Doble as well as other RAF airmen being introduced to King George VI and his family with an ‘x’ added by a fellow airman to show Doble amongst the men. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17743 The collection includes an article about a Bomb Aimer and Navigator who refused to fly, destroying their maps in the process. Despite being allowed to fly after this event, they did so again and was ultimately charged with Lack of Moral Fibre. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17746 Finally, Doble’s log and service and release book shows his service across his entire career as well as the aircrafts he flew in each place, something which he explores within his oral interview. Upon his release, Doble was described as an ‘extremely capable and efficient worker… of a very pleasant and cheerful nature’, and once again his interview serves to reflect the type of man he was and still is. https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/17747
Amy Johnson
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: So this is the introduction to the interview that I’m having with Mr Ron Doble. My name’s Chris Brockbank and we’re at [omitted] Haddenham, and we’re going to be talking about his experiences, er, in training and, er, in life in general with the RAF and what he did afterwards and he was with 97 Squadron. So Ron, would you mind starting please with what your earliest recollections were, your family and how you came to join the RAF?
RD: Well I was born, er, in London, in Hammersmith, um, from a very working class people, my family, er, my father was a driver on the Great Western Railway and my mother was an ex— believe it or not, nun, who was kept by the nuns and ill-treated etcetera, which is something, but there you go, um, and she left or got out of it and met my father and they both got married. Then I was born and that was it. I lived in Richard’s Street, which was, um, very near the Gaumont British Studios where the film stars used to come and I used to look down there and see some of them getting out of their cars, very interesting actually. From there I, I left school, at, er, just nearly fourteen and the war had just started. I didn’t do a great deal regarding that but I joined the ATC, Air Training Corps, 336 Squadron it was, and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there [cough] beg your pardon and, um, during this time of course the war had just more or less started and, er, all we could think about was, or all I [emphasis] could think about, was to get into the RAF and do flying and be a great heroic person [laugh] and shoot down thousands of aircraft and how wonderful it would be, not realising really it would have been a nightmare in some cases, maybe not for the likes of me myself personally but for the likes of people that I know, have known and known very well, great friends. I then went to — oh dear, where did I join up in London?
CB: At Lords.
RD: Yeah. Went to Lords, had a bit of breakfast, got kitted out with the stuff and then sent from there to Grove Court [background noise] to Grove Court which was, er, Air Crew Receiving Centre and while we were there we were put to really rigorous, um, oh dear, discipline [emphasis] but being all youngsters, of course, you always had a bit of fun altogether, sort of thing, and one thing or another, and it was a great laugh in a way. In other ways it wasn’t but there you go. So what happened, one of the things that happened there, we were put into rooms next to each other, this lot in this room and us lot in this room, and we thought we would go and have a little mess around with the other lot, not anything violent or anything like that, just a laugh. So away we went and, er, somebody joined this mix-up, er, picked up a biscuit, a set of biscuits, which were three mattresses that were on the bed for you, for your sleeping, and he, he just got into this crowd of guys all messing around but within that was a mess tin and, unfortunately, the mess tin took off and went through a window, and we were all flabbergasted so we all shot to the window and looked out, low and behold, the grass and things had fallen on a, a flight sergeant with, with fifty guys on parade down below. So we thought, ‘Oh my God.’ So we went to our rooms quickly but that wasn’t not quick enough because the next second up come the flight sergeant, Chiefie we used to call him, and, um, we were all put on a charge. So that was a good start [laugh] for the start of our — whatever. Anyway we were marched in front of the, um, guy in charge of the place, group captain, and it was quick march, quick march, left right, left right. Walked in and saluted and he said, ‘Right disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful going on. This is not what we do or should do.’ So he said, ‘Therefore I’m giving you five days confined to barracks and each one of you will pay threepence halfpenny for all the damage that you’ve caused.’ So we thought, ‘Right.’ Left, right, left right and out we went, and that was the end of that. The confined to barracks was nothing really, let’s face it, because we weren’t allowed out or went on relief from there for the period of time we were there which was, er, about six weeks. [cough] What happened then was we were sent to — that’s right, Yatesbury. I was because I was picked as a wireless operator air gunner. This was a nine month course, um, which was to take me nearly to the end of the war. But anyway, what happened then was we all, well not all of us, part of us went off to Yatesbury. We did a radio course and learnt the Morse code and things and then we were suddenly told that they didn’t want radio wireless operators anymore. So that curtailed my training there and we were sent back, typical business, but sent back to Scarborough which was another receiving centre for aircrew. And while we were there the powers that be thought, ‘Right we’ll give them something to do.’ So they put us on a so-called aptitude test and this aptitude test was to determine whether you were fit and able to be aircrew or other things, OK? So away we went. We had to march so far, run so far, swim. Swimming, by the way, um, I should always remember being in the little place where you changed and then waiting to see whether they gave you a slip, and the slip was like a little loin cloth to cover your vital parts up but the flight sergeant came along and said, ‘What the hell are you waiting here for some of you guys.’ And we said, ‘Well, where’s the slip? He said, ‘No bloody slip here.’ He said, ‘You get in that water.’ He said, ‘And the swimmers will help the non-swimmers.’ So we all jumped in and did our bit and then got out [cleared throat]. We had various, various things, mental things as well. One of them that really struck me was the fact that put in front of you was, was a box, in the box was squares of wood, painted on top was half black and half white and you had so many seconds to turn these things round to see how many you could do, and what surprised me quite a bit was that some of the guys turned them round completely so at the end of it there was hardly any score, which was amazing really. Anyway, that went on and then we were told, ‘Right, you’ve done that. You’re going to Locking, RAF Regiment place, Locking.’ We got there and we were kitted out with army stuff and boots and gaiters and given, um, a rifle — and, er, didn’t know what to do with it but, um, anyway while we were there we were put to different things such as crawling through tunnels [background noise] and one thing or another. So we got through that and then posted on the — at Scarborough posted on a notice board would be exactly what you, your aptitude made of what you were capable of. But I must stress that when you joined up you knew what you were going to be, or supposed to be, if you passed the test, but with this thing you went to it and it was just luck of the draw, that’s all I can say. Because some of us got through and much to my amazement, I was really chuffed, I got through as an air gunner, fine, three-month’s course, yeah? So — but some of them didn’t get thorough, didn’t reach these — full [?] marks so they were designated, believe it or not — don’t forget that we were all volunteers — they were designated to be Paratroops, um, down the coal mines or in the Army and then there was a big clear out then. And then we were posted to ITW, Initial Training Wing, at Bridgenorth.
CB: Right, we’ll stop there just for a mo. [interview stopped at 0:13:42:9 and restarted 0:13:45:07]
RD: Before we went to ITW, sorry I’m getting a bit mixed we were sent to [ cough] Clapham, in London, Wandsworth and we were put on an educational course [slight laugh] and we went to the — we were stationed at Victoria Rise, which was a, a block of, um, rooms on the hill, and we were marched from there to the tram and the tram took us down to Wandsworth College and we went in the College and we’d do four or five hours learning different things, which was, which was quite good actually and, of course, big head here put his foot in it again because on, on the desk [cough] beg your pardon, was a, a pressure thing, what do you call it? A U-tube and he was showing us the way you, you varied the pressure. So big head here thought, ‘Oh well, I’ll have a go at that.’ So instead of blowing carefully I went there and went like that and the whole lot of mercury, well part of it, shot out the top of this tube and went all over the place and mercury is like little ball bearings. So we got all the lads to go round and pick up all these little ball bearings and put it back in the tube before the teacher come back. We thought it was funny but I didn’t at the time. Just something, one of the bloody stupid things I normally did. So there we go. So what happened then was we were there and we done that and then we were going on to ITW but, a big but, during this time we were sitting there and all of a sudden this aircraft, er, came over and it was quite low and quite noisy. And we thought, ‘Oh good God, I wonder what that is.’ And the thing cut out and went down and we were on the hill and then we just saw a big bang and, er, that was the V1. So the V1 thing started coming over then. What happened then was the course was abandoned at the college, as normal, and we were given, four of us, each, each of us four, four lads were given a truck with a driver and we were told to go to these bomb sites and help out with rescuing people or helping in general. Well, regarding rescuing people that was ridiculous really. I mean, you’re walking over, er, debris and stuff and, er, I know it sounds awful but it [background noise] probably did more damage than [unclear] anyway we were taking off of that and told us that, um, we’ll be responsible for all valuables and moveable objects in these bombed out buildings, er, and one instance was whilst we went to a four storey building, we looked around for valuables, we took those and I must impress none of these guys, none of us kept one penny of anything that we found but [cough] it was handed over to the van driver so, OK, and he had to report back and hand that in, um, anyway we got to the — one of the points was we got to the top story of this four [cough] four-storey building and there was a grand piano there. So we were told we’d have to move the grand piano and the only way you could move the grand piano was to put it out of the shattered window. There was no frame or anything and lower it down on straps. Well, the guy that was with us was supposed to have been a removal van, man so we put the strap around. It was one strap and a couple of ropes and we, we managed to lift this piano up and put it on the ledge of the window [cough] and then the guy said, ‘Right give it a little push and then we’ll lower it down.’ So we gave it a little push and, low and behold, the piano just disappeared down. The ropes went through our hands, we couldn’t hold it, and it hit the bottom of this place in the area and made a lovely booming sound but that was the end of thing. So really and truly we didn’t achieve a lot there. But we did, we did help, I must admit we did help. So then we were, we were went to ITW at Bridgenorth, Initial training Wing Bridgenorth, and then we did our ITW there and then from there I went on to Dalcross I think, which is now Inverness.
CB: Airport.
RD: Dalcross, um, I forget the name of the — similar[?] something — Air Gunnery School and that was really something, that really was something, but by now of course the war was getting very close to the end. So got in these Wellingtons and, er, it is most odd but I got a picture up there, you can see later, you probably know anyway they were just, er, lattice work and fabric [cough] but very very strong, very reliable, anyway I got in that, my first time in there I was given a suit and, er, all the bits and pieces. And away we went and we had to do drogue firing, and, er, air to sea firing and also, er, camera work with Spitfires and Hurricanes, um, that’s right, yep. Spitfires and Hurricanes, um, that’s right, yep. Well, this course was to me the, the height of what I had to achieve because I didn’t want to fail this. This is what from a little lad in the ATC up till then I had to get in that Lanc or whatever and do, um, some work. So anyway the end of that came and I did very well, um, and they made a new idea of, of drogue firing which was called a quarter cross under. And, amazingly enough, I got a hundred and sixteen hits out of six hundred rounds and another one I got what? Thirty-two hits I think. It’s in the logbook. And when I got — passed all the tests and I did very well actually and, er, the guy handing out the wings congratulated me on my scoring, sort of thing, so I was quite chuffed about that. From there we went to Moreton-in-Marsh which was 21 Operational Training Unit and again on Wellingtons but these were really doing the job, flying around and God knows what. So I’d only done about twenty odd hours at Dalcross and nothing high altitude so when I got there I was put amongst a pool of half a dozen guys and there was a chap there called Squadron Leader Corbesley [?] and, and his crew [cough] and they were well into their course but their gunner was sick with appendicitis so, low and behold, out come the boss of the gunnery section and said, ‘Right Doble, you done well on the final test you can do well on this I’m sure.’ So he put me in the crew with Pete Corbesley, um, oh I forget their names now, bless them. The bomb aimer Ted Heywood [?]— anyway, so away we went. Now this flight was a high altitude bombing flight and also a night-time drogue firing. Right, so I’ve got all the kit on and everything and I’d never done this before. It was a four hour or five hour trip [cough] oxygen and all the rest of it. So in the turret I got, which was good. I managed to get in that. That was OK, lovely, and away we went on our, on our, on our, um, job. We did the bombing and all the rest of it and then I had to do the drogue firing. Now, nobody had told me much about what to do because I’d missed that part of the course or I’d been shoved in halfway through. What I had to do was to get out the turret, put the little emergency bottle on, put the drogue down the flare chute and let it out on a winch, and then get back in and look for the drogue, which was — had a little light inside, fire at it when I’m finished, come back, wheel it in and do it. Right, I went out, I got in the turret, looked and I thought, ‘That’s funny, where’s the drogue?’ And then I saw this thing doing a complete circle behind the aircraft [slight laugh] and the drogue had gone out there and hadn’t streamed so it was just like a parcel. And when I looked and this thing’s whirling round I thought, ‘My God.’ All I could think was whether it would cut the tail off. Obviously it couldn’t but I thought, ‘Oh gee whiz,’ so and the skipper said, ‘You OK gunner?’ I said, ‘Yeah I’m just starting now.’ So I fired a few rounds and all the rest of it and then I quickly got out, put the bottle on and had to wind this thing back. So I wound it back and then I had a nice silk scarf and that got tangled up winding in the wings. So I had to wind it back a bit and get the scarf out and fiddling about and then suddenly I felt a bit woozy but anyway I managed to get the drogue in, undid it and — yeah and then I thought, ‘Right I’ll get back in now.’ But I felt a bit odd. So as I tried to move I couldn’t really move properly and I looked down and this little bottle I think had, I think they had about fifteen minutes, I’m not sure but I think they had, um, and it had run out. So there so there I was stuck halfway down at the end of this dark tunnel, um, gasping for breath and there are things on the side where you can get it in but you can’t really see them. And lucky enough [clears throat] the navigator pulled his curtain back and had a look and I said, er, you know, ‘Can you help me, you know?’ Sort of thing. So he come down and looked and said, ‘Oh yeah,’ and plugged it in and said then I was OK. I got back in the turret and away we went. We did the job and got back and I thought, ‘My goodness me. That was the [clock chimes] first long range high altitude trip and it was a nightmare.’ [laugh] All because of my own fault possibly but there you go. That went on there and there was another a bit of a thing. The Wellies were getting a bit old by now and, um, one little thing was in the turret I felt a bit of wet and God knows what and when I looked the hydraulic pipe had broken and saturated me with hydraulic oil. So that was one thing and, um, the next thing was, on another trip we did, um, I was in the turret and a big cloud of smoke and stuff come up through the turret and I thought, ‘Oh my God. It’s going to catch alight.’ [clock chimes] So I quickly got out the turret and I said to the skipper, ‘Skipper, it looks as if the turret’s on fire.’ [slight laugh] I mean, I know it sounds funny but it’s not funny, it’s not [slight laugh]. So he said, ‘Well is there any flames? I said, ‘No, no, no there’s no flames.’ So he said, ‘Right, well stand by it and see what happens.’ And then I said, ‘Oh, it’s alright now.’ The smoke had disappeared. So he said, ‘Oh good.’ He said, ‘OK then. Carry on. Get back in your turret.’ Well, I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’m not getting back in there.’ I said, ‘Because if it’s on fire this thing might fall off or something.’ I said, ‘No, I’ve had enough of that’. So he said, ‘Yeah, OK gunner come up front.’ So I went up front and it was a twin flying thing, a Wellington with twin controls, and I sat in there in the — this seat and the skipper was there and [cough] I finished, finished that. He let me fly the thing but I couldn’t ruddy fly it, you know. I sat there and he said, ‘OK, you take over governor and see how you get on.’ So it was night time so I didn’t know what to do. I thought, ‘Well if I hold the stick still then the thing just goes.’ So I held the stick still and then all of a sudden all the dials started going round. Well my little brain said, ‘Oh blow me, I’m over speeding, there’s too much power.’ You know, so I leant forward to get the throttles and he said, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘Well I’m throttling back.’ ‘Don’t do that.’ He said [cough], ‘Look out there.’ He said, ‘And you’ll see the horizon, even though it’s dark.’ He said, ‘Where’s the horizon?’ And of course the horizon was up there [unclear] long way down so he, he sorted that out and we landed and that was the end of that. OK. [background noise]
CB: Yeah, you only had yourself to look after.
RD: Absolutely, you know, it was your responsibility. If something happened well that’s it. It was just bad luck. But getting back to my opinion about it all was the fact that — I know for a fact that lots of these aircraft were, were, um, destroyed. I mean, Nuremburg I think was one and another one, Leipzig, um, where you got ninety-five aircraft knocked down in one night.
CB: Yeah.
RD: Um, that is one of the reasons why we went on all this business to start of my career, if you can call it that. They wanted air gunners. Oh and something I missed out by the way —
CB: That’s OK.
RD: I’m sorry about that.
CB: No don’t worry. We can pick it up. What, what did you miss out?
RD: Well, what happened was, when we were at St Johns Wood, at the ACRC, um, they called for volunteers but air gunners. Now we were all different grades. Well, obviously I went down ‘cause I wanted to be an air gunner and so, being stupid, [noise] it’s only a three month course or something like that and I’ll be on operations, um, so we all queued up and along came the groupie [?] and he talked to some and talked to some and he come to me and he said, ‘How old are you son?’ I said, ‘Eighteen Sir.’ He said, ‘Well bugger off!’ And, er, I went with a few of the others, you know. So he was quite human, put it that way. I mean I was only a kid wasn’t I? Let’s face it. We were all kids, high spirited and, er, mind you we learnt quick, well I [emphasis] didn’t. The people that did these ops, hundreds of ops and things, tours, they were incredible people. The other thing that strikes me as well — can I go on? Was the fact that, as you know, if you didn’t do the op — [background noise]
CB: Now here’s your tea Ron —
RD: Yes, thank you very much.
CB: So some of these people —
RD: [noise] Shall I carry on? So, some of these people, as you know, I’ve known an instance of a guy who done thirty ops and he was told he’d got to do an extra five, um, you know, before he was taken out and he said, ‘I’m not doing it.’ He said, ‘ I’ve had enough. I’ve done my bit and that’s it.’ And that’s where this business of LMF comes in and they were sent to Eastchurch, where the LMF place was, and they were demoted, AC2s, and, er, I don’t know, just, used as spare parts I suppose. But it was awful really, absolutely terrible, um, and quite a few, quite a few did that. I don’t know and that’s, that’s what gets me [emphasis]. If I’d done quite a few ops, how would I have felt? I don’t know now. I would love to have known but you don’t know. But there you go. Anyway, where were we? Oh yeah, OTU. So we finished up at OTU. My pilot, by the way, was a squadron leader. He was quite important and he was a Spitfire photo reconnaissance pilot originally and he was on a high flying operation over Italy at the time and he was, er, shot down and he was captured by the Italians and put in a prisoner camp. But the, the Italians surrendered and left the Germans there but when this happened he got away and he was transported back to England, believe it or not, and that’s when he came onto the OTU for multi-engined aircraft to go back, back to that and he was getting on a bit as well, so that’s it. So from there we went to 1653 HCU. I can’t quite remember.
CB: At North Luffenham?
RD: It was Lindholme, Lind— I don’t know. Some of them we were — one of them in there in my book we were sent to the Heavy Conversion Unit there and then moved halfway through to another operational place, airfield.
CB: OK. 1653 was North Luffenham.
RD: Yeah, was it? Oh well, I might have it wrong, I might even have it wrong, it was North Luffenham. But anyway, from there we went to, um, a squadron, that’s it, in Lincolnshire.
CB: Just before we get on to that could you just explain what you please did at the HCU?
RD: Oh, yeah, well what we did at — sorry. Obviously — what happened at the Conversion Unit was, you come from Wellingtons, which were rather a sparse looking aircraft, but ground [?] crew very reliable, to the Lanc which got a bit more room, er, the turrets weren’t much better than the old, er, Wellington, um, and what we did there was, um, touch and go and all the rest of it. And then, um, high flying and bombing etcetera and when we finished that we went on to squadron, I think it was — yeah, the squadron I was at was Hemswell in Lincolnshire. Hemswell, that’s right and when I got there I my pilot [unclear] and the crew but he had a heart problem, poor old boy, and, er, he was demoted from squadron— from wing commander down to squadron leader, sorry, and, er, we never saw him again. So I was left again without a crew. So again I’m the spare Charlie. So we all sat in the gunnery place and then along pops the gunnery leader and said, ‘Right, Doble, you’re flying with so and so. Right, Doble, you’re flying with so and so.’ And I flew away with Squadron Leader Bretherton. I think this is a well-known name, I’m not sure, but he was a nice guy. [clears throat] But all this time, all this time, things are moving regarding the air crew itself. Um, a — and I can understand it really, with the sergeant ground crew were sharing their mess with youngsters, sergeants, um, with nothing like their service or whatever. And it wasn’t, wasn’t a very happy scene at that time and they were obviously looked at, it was looked into and the powers that be said, ‘Well, as from — whatever date it was — you won’t be sergeants any more, you’ll be gunners in grades. There’ll be Gunner 2 and Gunner 1 and Master Gunner and your rank would not be there. It will be there but it will be a crown with, um, G2, G1 or Master, Master Gunner.’ And that was equivalent to sergeant, flight sergeant and warrant officer. The war had ended and I still hadn’t got into it and that was — that did it for me as far as I was concerned [cough]. I was pushed from pillar to post, didn’t do a great deal of flying and I got a bit fed up. So I thought, ‘Right I’m going to leave.’ So I left. We all got together actually and said we were fed up with this business and, I don’t know, about twenty of us decided we’d leave the RAF and — oh sorry, during this time the thing that came out was you could serve three years or five years if you wanted to, early on, and we had all signed up for three years and you were given fifty pounds a year for the three years, for a five — no, for the three years, that’s right. So we signed up, fine. Sorry, this is before things happened, sorry, before the squadron. Sorry about that. So we’d all signed up so what happened when we got to Hemswell, the war had ended, we were messing around and we all decided then — they’d de-ranked us and we were fed up with it. So we thought, ‘Right what we’ll do we’ll leave.’ And there was a clause in the thing that you signed that said if you had an apprenticeship, um, you could say that you want to continue with your apprenticeship and you’d be let off the signing up [cough] so about twenty-five of us turned up outside the office and we all marched in one by one into the boss and we all said, ‘We want to continue with our apprenticeship serg.’ And there was no messing about. It was, ‘OK that’s it, OK that’s it.’ And that was the end of it. I was sent to Filey, near Scarborough, kitted out with my suit and trilby hat and stuff and, er, released from the RAF. And then I came home and I was fed up really, I really was and, um, the other thing was coming back into Civvy Street was most strange because I was only a kid when I went in and I’d lived with loads of people and then suddenly bumph you’re out and you were on your own. And living in London there wasn’t much going on there as far as I was concerned and money was tight. So, um, that’s what we did.
CB: Where was your apprenticeship? Where was your apprenticeship?
RD: Oh sorry, yeah, that was at Rootes, Rootes Group in Acton, and we were making Sunbeams, Talbots and, um, Humbers bodies and during this time I was there, of course, I was working on all these things. I was a panel beater. And, er, there was lots of lead used on these old bodies. They don’t use it now, but what it was was when they were assembled they were hand assembled, so there was no real strict conforming, so when they came off the body with the doors the doors wouldn’t fit. The body was all weird. So it all had to be jacked out and messed about and then the joints were, were spot-welded, so that had to be covered with lead and I got the job of, amongst other guys, finishing lead so I did that and, um, got lead poisoning. So what happened then was my teeth started feeling awful and my gums — and I couldn’t at a piece of bread. So I went to the hospital and they said, ‘Well there’s only one thing for it. We’ll have to take all your teeth out.’ So they took all my teeth out and by then Rootes, Rootes Group had shut down their production on Talbots and we were out of a job but my union [emphasis] had taken up the lead poising business because there were others obviously. There were some that were really bad. They could hardly walk with this business. It got into their bones. So, um, that was it and then what happened then was I got a letter from the union with a cheque and the cheque was for a hundred pounds which I suppose nowadays would be — what, a thousand? And that was it, in settlement of my claim but obviously some of the old boys never made it I don’t — anyway that was it. So we left that. What did I do then? [cough] Um, oh that’s right, I took up motor cycling. I mean, that was good. My little bike was passing cars on the road and the rest of it. So I took up motor cycling. I met my dear wife and she used to sit on the back and terrified but she liked it. But we had good fun and I met lots of people and I, I got a job, er, as a panel beater on car repairs in Haddenham, where we are now, across on the estate, industrial estate, and I did that until I retired. And then when I retired I took up the Air Crew Association and I met some lovely people. Ah they were great guys. They are now [emphasis]. Look at, look at my mate here, you know. They are, they’re so helpful and lovely, all of them. And that’s what I done and I became the welfare officer. At one time we’d left [unclear] when I was squadron bomb aimer and, er, we used to go round all the guys and cheer them up or have a chat, exactly, more or less like you guys are doing really, all voluntary, but well done and absolutely loved doing it. And then, er, as time went on and I gave that up. I used to organise lots of trips, didn’t I? And one of the trips I, I managed to get was I wrote to, um, the Mem— Memorial Flight, Lincoln, and they wrote back and said, ‘Yeah, come up and we’ll give you a flight.’ So I went up with two of my mates [cough] I think that’s [unclear] there and, low and behold, and we got a trip in a Lancaster, which was quite nice. What else did we do?
CB: I’m going to stop it there because your drink is —
RD: Oh yeah —
CB: [background noise] Now after refreshments we’re just picking up on a few things now. So Ron, er, it’s difficult to understand when you haven’t experienced it what it was like in gunnery training. What was the first thing they did to teach you how to shoot from an aircraft?
RD: Right, so what they did was, um, you first go on the rifle range, obviously, at the gunnery school and then you would go to a turret, um, which was fired into the butts and then you sat in that and, er, you operated it and you fired it and that was fine. Then you were taught, um, the amount of deflection you gave to each aircraft, so you had to learn — yeah, really — I still — you had to learn the wing span of the aircraft. So you had to identify the aircraft. If it’s an ME109 — I forget now, I’ve got it somewhere, it’s thirty-odd feet, and then you had to, um, in your mind, give a little bit of leeway or whatever there and then the other thing was — it was silly really, in my opinion, but I’m, I’m probably wrong, but all the training was done by what they called curve pursuit. That’s what they called it. It’s in the book somewhere.
CB: And what did that mean?
RD: Curve pursuit — it meant you fly here and the aircraft would come here, the Spitfire or Hurricane or whatever, and supposedly a German aircraft, and it would come round and then it would —
CB: In a curve.
RD: Start firing and then break down or break down that way. So you had to give your deflection and it would be — I forget now, um, anyway you had to gradually bring it in to the, to the dock and the dock would be when that’s right astern.
CB: OK.
RD: But the attacking aircraft would never get into that positon because they come along that like and then they dived down and away. They wouldn’t make a dead, a dead shot.
CB: OK but if I can just ask you another question there though because these are technical phrases really? So what do you mean by deflection?
RD: Well deflection is when the bullet leaves the gun you got — it’s got to go from there to the aircraft and also the aircraft is moving at a speed so you’ve got to fire —
CB: Ahead of it.
RD: In front of the aircraft all the time and gradually decreasing it, you get what I mean? There’s the sight there. It starts off there, um, and you’re gradually decreasing the, the deflection until its zero right behind you.
CB: Cause as it gets close —
RD: But you get —
CB: Yes but the further away it is the greater the deflection because the bullet has to go further.
RD: That’s right and then the bullets wouldn’t strike anyway really. The proper, proper range, where you can do damage really was two hundred yards but you opened fire at six hundred yards.
CB: Rihgt, OK. And how many rounds were there in — for each gun?
RD: Oh, there were hundreds. There used to be in the old aircraft there used to be a can and they’d fill it up but these aircraft, the Wellie as well, they found there was not enough bullets so in the aircraft hallway up there’s a big, um, storage thing —
CB: A drum.
RD: A steel box, steel box, and they’re laid like that, flexible links [cough] and they’d go down this chute onto the power, power roller sort of thing, right, that drags them along and it would go along there, quite a good, a nice job, under the turret —
CB: This is the rear turret?
RD: Yep. And then to the guns so you’d have one, two, three, four, four of each, and once you’d put them in the breach and locked it down then, when you fired, the strength of the round going in pulled the bullets along so, you know, they just kept feeding in, sort of thing.
CB: Yeah, OK.
RD: [cough] Very uncomfortable, um, and the controls were like a motorbike controls, um, left, right, up, down and triggers. No heating, um, but they did have one plug which would be for an electric suit and if you were lucky enough you got an electric suit. They did have them but they were a bit troublesome. But anyway, on this particular night, I had an electric suit and we did a high, high trip and it was absolutely freezing cold, um, your eyes ice up and you got to watch the oxygen because, er, your spittle sort of goes in the oxygen tube and then it ices up, so you got to make sure it’s clear by cracking it, you know, so you can breathe. How many people passed out or whatever I don’t know but that’s what you had to do, um, what else was there?
CB: So the gunsight itself, what is like that?
RD: Oh yeah, it was the old-fashioned one —
CB: Was a circle, was it?
RD: It was just a little round thing like that with a hood, that’s all, with a sight that’s projected by light at the bottom, know what I mean?
CB: So there was spot in the middle of it, was there?
RD: A dot in the middle.
CB: Yeah, a dot.
RD: And a circle.
CB: Right and —
RD: And when the aircraft got close, um, you got it right on the outside and you gradually decreased it. It was all luck of the draw really. And then — oh, yes, that’s right, the electric suit — so this one — another drama — I plugged in the suit and, er, when you’re high up you tend to sweat a little bit, believe it or not, just on the back of the neck and things and, of course, this bloody suit when I moved my neck like that it was going [buzzing sound] it was sending a small charge through. Oh dear and this part here was beautifully warm, really, really, really warm. This was there so I had to keep turning it off and get freezing cold, turn it on and get it warm and everything. Anyway what happened when I got back I complained, took it off, and low and behold, my jumper had — a big polo neck thing had a ruddy big hole in it [laugh] and it went through that and it went onto my battle dress [laugh]. It didn’t burn my skin but what was happening it was shorting out there [cough] and burning my clothes [laugh]. That was another saga and that was it.
CB: You were lucky not to get fried.
RD: Well yeah [laugh] but it was, it was so damn cold. It really, really was.
CB: So what temperature would it have been outside?
RD: Jesus, I don’t know, I don’t know, minus twenty?
JL: Probably more than that, depends what height you were at.
CB: More likely to be minus forty.
RD: Forty yes, you know, that is —
CB: But very cold anyway.
RD: That’s bloody cold. But one plane I flew in at the Conversion Unit had been an ex-squadron Lancaster, it’s time had expired or whatever, and it been sent to the Conversion Unit and I saw pictures of this as well, it did happen. The visibly with perspex and the turret visibly really is very limited because the guns were there, the sight’s there, and you’ve got panels, so what they did they cut the hole, um, glass area off —
CB: The back.
RD: So yeah. So when I got in this thing you were literally sat there with nothing, just obviously the guns and stuff, but, um, cor that must have been bloody cold but they did it. Thing is they had to do it, didn’t they? Because, you know, they were losing aircraft left, right and centre. And the other thing is, the silly thing that I think is, um, quite a while before, um, these ops become more frequent, um, they were losing aircraft. They couldn’t understand it. What was happening, as you all know now probably, was the fact that they had these Messerschmitt would, would up and firing cannon at an angle. Well, you’re sitting here and you can’t see down there, and these things used to come along like that and just blast the old cannon into the aircraft. And that’s it, you — well they’d always put it into the wing, not to the fuselage, because with the bomb load they could kill theirselves — put it into the wing, engine caught fire and that’s it. They knew about this but the thing was to put a turret in — the first Lancaster, the very very first Lancaster built — I don’t know whether you know this — but there was an under turret. But the powers that be, they were on about bomb load, so they took the turret out and made more space for a bomb bay [cough] so they were coming underneath there and doing that. So, um, one squadron, I think it was 77, a Halifax Squadron, um, they cut a hole and put a .5 drill on the mounting, um, to make sure that they could see what was going on underneath but I don’t think that was very good. But that was where most of the casualties were, underneath, firing, not direct, not this silly curve pursuit thing. They wouldn’t do that, that was daft. Then the Lanc, er, the Lincoln was a stretched Lanc really, very nice, different, a little bit of comfort and in the turret totally different. There were 2.5s [cough] pardon, two half inch Browning and, er, a little desk. It was amazing really. You could put your hands out and a single column which fired by a button on top and you could do all this and that would do all that instead of doing all this and the sight was, um, what they called a gyro-sight. It was on the front — was — it had ME109, FW190, Heinkel 111 and the idea was you identified the aircraft you turned this thing round to whatever aircraft you identified, which would feed into this system, the wing span, and the sight itself would be, I think — let me think, yeah, diamonds, yeah, you understand?
CB: Yep.
RD: Little white diamonds, one in the middle, and when you moved the turret these diamonds in this screen would, would — were black. You know what I mean? You know, you would start off there, they were black, and when you come astern it would — and that was the gyro-sight, which is quite successful really, but how many were shot down like that I don’t know. It was quite a nice sight and the heating was incredible, there was heating as well, um, quite comfortable actually, very good [cough].
CB: OK. Just going back to gunnery school, how did they teach you to do deflection shooting before you got in the turret?
RD: Well — no —
CB: Clay pigeon?
RD: Yeah.
CB: So how much of that did you do?
RD: That’s it.
CB: How much of that did you do?
RD: It was quite a bit and you know it’s the usual thing you’d start behind there so the clay went out like that. You had to deflect, you know, because the thing’s dropping isn’t it? Fire and then you go on the quarter which is again, er, more or less, a detraction and then on the beam, which would be, um, full [?] deflection and then on the spar [?], which would be going the other way, you do less. It’s quite — you know, it was fairly easy because you didn’t sight it. Well people must know, you just covered the clay, you know what I mean? And — but you had to follow on and that was the thing.
CB: It was to [unclear]
RD: So many, you know, so many would sight it up and stop and pull the trigger and, of course, it was too late but it was the flow. That’s it.
CB: And that, that taught you the importance of flow?
RD: Yeah. So that was it.
CB: And fast forward when you went to 97 Squadron.
RD: Sorry?
CB: You went to 97 Squadron. Did you — so was the war in Europe over by then?
RD: Yeah. We were called the —
CB: The Tiger Squadron.
RD: Tiger Force.
CB: Tiger Force.
RD: But of course that fell through, didn’t it? I think, I think it was a good thing too because the Lincoln wasn’t, wasn’t sorted for that sort of thing. You know, um, what the [unclear] forces were doing — they were doing — what two or three thousand miles, fifteen hundred miles, you know? And the old Lanc — well, it, it was alright. And of course what the fuel you put on then it lessened the bomb load and that’s why they did away with this under-turret and why didn’t fit one. They knew what was going on. I know for a fact. I‘ve seen photos of the Lanc wing with bullet holes in it and they put rods through and it shows you that the, the cannon shells were going in at an angle underneath the aircraft.
CB: Did they, um, tell you about that?
RD: No.
CB: What do you understand about scarecrow?
RD: Yes, well that didn’t take place. I’m sorry, it didn’t take place, in my [emphasis] opinion. I’ve spoken to many people and seen different things [clock chimes] and, er, no they were flames, explosives. They’d been hit in the bomb bay and, er, just — but they thought they were scarecrows, big, big, big guns firing scary things up them and big explosions, you know. But that’s in my opinion. I mean, I’m just saying.
CB: There was, there were lots of different situations in, obviously, in the war but how did you get on with the people who joined up with you and did you keep in touch with them for a period?
RD: Yeah, I kept in touch. I’ve got a photo there, see. Yeah, I had great friends. Fred Davies, he was a Welshman, he was a nice guy. Yeah, there was no, no animosity, nothing, right? None whatsoever, in, in my lot, put it that way. [clock chimes]
CB: The crew went together well?
RD: No animosity or anything. Really lovely. [clock chimes]
CB: And as far as mates were concerned, how many of those did you lose on the way?
RD: Well, I lost two, that’s right, yeah, two gunners, well two crews and that was the course at OTU.
CB: What happened to them?
RD: [clears throat] Well one of them was coming into land on the runway and at night. [clock striking] This was the thing, at night, and, er, it landed short and went in the forest. I’ve got some pictures of that somewhere and, er, smashed a tree [?] and that was it. And the other one was a friend of mine and Sandy and I go to Botley because that’s where they’re buried. And this crew — they were nice. There was Robin, Robbie I called him. He was rear gunner and there was the navigator. The pilot was called Ferdinando and they also had on board instructors so I should think there was probably on board five —eight people. And what it was, we, we, were on the way back to the aerodrome at Morton and a big weather front came in and we were told — it said by radio, you know, watch it there’s a bit dodgy weather and we managed, believe it or not, got in fine. We landed, perhaps because we’d got a good pilot, Pete, you know, he’d done it before. And while we were standing there waiting for the truck to come along and load our stuff in, in the distance on the hill — it was only six hundred foot high, apparently, they found out afterwards — there was a big red glow come up and died down quickly and we all thought, ‘What the hell’s that?’ And, er, I thought no more of it. And then in the morning of course when, when we went for breakfast there was, um, pictures of this and there was the Lincoln [?] and they were all killed and Robbie was too. He was a great character. Yeah.
CB: So next you went to the HCU and the HCU you went to 97 Squadron but the war finished. So how did everybody feel about that?
RD: Well we stopped [laugh] sorry. That’s the reason why I left anyway [cough]. Not only that they’re demoting you and bringing in these new grades and chucking you in — you hadn’t got a mess then I suppose. I don’t know where you went. They didn’t have a gunners’ mess, whatever, I don’t know. You just felt let down. You know what I mean?
CB: Let down because —
RD: Well I was —
CB: Because you hadn’t seen the action, is that what you meant?
RD: There was that to it but it was the way you were treated after the war — it was, it was just falling to bits, you know, I mean, as you say, the aircraft — the economy [?] of it was time-expired bloody Lancs and squadrons. The Wellingtons were well on their way out really. And also the morale was there. I mean, when you’ve got a group of guys together and they’re doing something, you know, dodgy [laugh] flying and — you don’t know what’s going to happen, put it that way. Then you become very close but then, as I say, look at myself. I was told to fly with them and fly with them and fly with them. I didn’t even know the crew. Then when Pete left so there was nothing, as far as I was concerned, and the war, that had ended, and I thought, ‘Well, what is there?’ And they started coming out with these aircraft that could — jets, you know. Oh yes, that’s right, sorry. There’s a little thing I must tell you as the fact that when we was there on the Lincolns we were told that there would be an exercise with Canberra’s, you know, so we got in the aircraft, I got in the aircraft and that was it. Then these Canberras were going to do a diving attack on our aircraft. So I’d got this gyro-sight, so the Canberra was way up there, carrying on the same course, and I’m looking at that and thinking, ‘Right, when you come down I’ll get you.’ And, er, he came down. I went like that and the gyro-sight toppled, get what I mean?
CB: Absolutely.
RD: It was, it was too quick. So that’s another thing, I mean [laugh]. Useless, isn’t it. What can you do?
CB: Sure.
RD: You know, you get the 262s, you know, and had you got plenty more of them they could have done a lot of damage.
CB: What sort of experiences were fed back when you were in the HCU? Because a lot of the crews had been on operations. So what did you get from that?
RD: Well they were quite happy, you know, really, I suppose but, um, I never doubted that, they’d done their tour or whatever, um, yeah, we were alright. But of course the thing is, with the older people in the RAF — I’m not talking about peacetime, wartime as well — the older people in the RAF. I mean, we were, we were at a dance, er, I forget where it was. Anyway, I was — I’d got my buddy [?] and things. It might have been Morton or somewhere and [cough] the guys were having a few beers like everybody else and enjoying it, lovely, and then in the morning we were told to go to the cinema, all sergeant aircrew to go to the cinema. So we went to the cinema and there was the CO and he said, ‘Right.’ He said, ‘I’ve never seen such a disgusting display of behaviour by all you people at this dance.’ He said, ‘You should be ashamed of yourself.’ And I heard it at school as well. They used to tell me, ‘You’re nothing like your fathers and your people before you.’ ‘You’re a disgusting young people and to pee in the middle of a bloody dance floor.’ He said, ‘It’s just the top of the thing. That’s disgusting.’ So we thought, ‘Yeah, that’s nice isn’t it? That’s typical of what’s going to go on.’ So we left there and it turned out it was a ground crew sergeant that pissed on the floor. So there you go. Not that I’m saying anything about the ground crew. They were lovely. We all had our moments, I must admit.
CB: How did the air — the crew of your aircraft get on with the ground crew?
RD: Lovely, yeah, but then again you didn’t see a lot of them unless you walked around and spoke to them. Yeah, they were fine, um, but you read reports of course that they were not fine, you know. They were — you know there’s a bloke, his statement I got upstairs [cough] written by some — in my opinion — brain has gone — about ground crew, he said they — a whole list of it, they hated us, they did this, they did that [cough]. It’s all rubbish. That’s how it, um, came about, you know, by their state of mind. Obviously they must have had a bad time or something like that and that was it. I don’t know whether that’s —
CB: Did you keep in touch with your crew after the war?
RD: Yes. Yeah. I’ve got some photos there —
CB: I’m going to stop this now. [background noise]
RD: All the pictures that you see of the Lincoln now. They’ve taken the gun turret out, mid-upper, I don’t know why.
CB: Just on this topic. We are talking now about gunnery again about equipment. How did you feel about using point 303s instead of .5s? Because the Lincoln had .5s.
RD: I used to think at that time that was, that was OK because, um, if I remember rightly, I think at six hundred yards, no four hundred yards, you get an area of a twenty two foot six square.
CB: A cone.
RD: So, you know, you’ve got a chance of hitting but a little 303 like that [cough] on the under plate on the front of these aircraft would just bounce off unless you got a lucky hit, which they did, they did at times, I must admit they did. But the 20 mill that was alright, my God that was — phew, bloody hell, that was a thing that was. And to load them you had to get in the turret and, and drop a, an arming tool down a hook and you had to drop it down to the breach, hook on the 20 mil cannon shell, and then pull it up, um, into the breach.
CB: This was the belt, the belt of shells.
RD: But the thing was you had to be very careful because some of the shells were impact used and if you got hold of it and pulled it like that you could blow yourself up. [cough] I think they discontinued those anyway. But they did with the turret. It was too much. I was as deaf as a post anyway.
CB: Ok. Thank you. I’m going to stop it now. [interview paused at 1:23:14:01 and restarted 1:23:16:2]
RD: Now we’ve glossed over [background noise] what you did after leaving school before joining the RAF. So you left school at fourteen Ron, what did you do before you joined the RAF and where did you live?
RD: At fourteen I went to Rootes and they were building, at that time, the stern frame and the centre section, wing centre section, of the Blenheim and, um, my first job there was to put behind a guillotine, which I had visions of one of these French guillotines coming down and chopping my head off, but it was a machine obviously and it cut metal, and I was the holder-upper on the guillotine, and my job was to go behind the guillotine. The guy operating it was there and I used to hold it and, er, it would cut and then I would put it down and cut, put it down and —
CB: This is aluminium sheet is it? Sheet aluminium?
RD: Alclad.
CB: Alclad.
RD: Alclad. Yeah, I used to do that and then there was guys going round with rivets and the rivets had to be normalised and, um, they were put in salt baths for a certain amount of time and all us guys had trays and at certain times of the day, and when I was free from this guillotine, you were given these rivet, rivet boxes and you had to go round to each guy, take his old rivet box and give him new a rivet box and that would go all the way through the cycle so that the rivets were always soft, yeah? And would harden with age. And then I was offered a job, sheet metal work, right, and I was taken on by the union as a, as an apprentice for sheet metal work and I used to do a bit of riveting and a bit of this and a bit of that, and shaping things and that, and, um, I think that was — that went on for — oh how long? Three years, that’s right, three years. By that time I could do a pretty good job at, um, panel beating. I was knocking out dents or whatever in the aluminium stuff and that. And then of course the end of the time came and, er, I got my calling up papers. I went to — what’s the name of the place? The house in London?
CB: What, to Lords?
RD: No. It’s a building. Oh God, Air Ministry RAF place — it’s got a name. Anyway, I went to there and that’s where all the things, medicals were done, and I went to that and then in my log book you’ll see A3B, A3B, NL what it was I got to do this thing, the length of leg, and I think it had to be thirty, thirty inches, yeah, and when they shoved me up — it was very crude in a way. They shoved me up against a, a back wall and then they would measure your leg length and mine was twenty-nine. So I got one guy pushing me back like this and the other guy pulling my legs to try and get the extra inch but it didn’t work out. So I could, according to that, I could never be a pilot because I didn’t have the leg length [cough]. [unclear] Of course, er, there was a little guy who used to fly, um, Kittyhawks and stuff and I used to take him to the Air Crew Association and, um, his job was to liaison with people, with these aircraft, and I always remember a little tale he said was, er, when he was in the Far East, he was told to fly from — I don’t know where it was, Libya to Malta, and he was told in — where the headquarters were — but this was a special message for the admiral in Malta, so he said, ‘ I’ve just come from a trip.’ And they said, ‘No you cannot worry about that, get in the aircraft and do this job because it’s very, very important.’ OK, gets in his Spitfire, flies off and lands in Malta and he said, ‘I’ve got a very special secret message for the admiral.’ So he had — was escorted to the — I don’t know where it was, the naval base, and went in front and saluted and gave the admiral this, er, this envelope [cough] and, um, the admiral went over there near the window and sort of opened the thing, ‘Oh, jolly good, jolly good, yeah. I bet the odds on that will be really great.’ He said, ‘OK, you can go and get yourself a meal now.’ And it was a tip. [laugh]
CB: For racing.
RD: For horse racing in Malta.
CB: [background noise] Ron was, um, in London during the war before he joined the RAF so what was it like Ron when you were in London and experiencing the air raids?
RD: I was only fourteen at the time [clears throat] and the war started. The sirens went and everybody panicked and run around, and got under tables and things, but then it was the all clear. And then nothing happened at all for quite some time, until one day above, in the sky above us, and over London itself there were vapour trails, loads and loads of vapour trails, and aircraft way up high, and then a smudge of smoke from where we were on the horizon. If you got upstairs and looked out you could see a smudge of smoke and that was when they first started bombing the docks and they caught fire, several of the granaries and other places along there, which really made a blaze, and all this was going on in a relatively small area of London called the East End [cough]. Unfortunately, that is where the real English people were, the cockneys, the, the miners, the coal — you know, the dockers, all sorts of things, and, er, living a very frugal life. But these bombs came down and wiped out a lot of the East End and then the fire got even worse and you could see the red on the horizon. I thought it was a good idea but — it’s silly again — but me and my mate said, ‘Let’s have a bike ride up there and see if we can see what’s going on somewhere.’ But we, we rode up there through London itself, near the East End, and then we were turned back because the police were there and God knows what, um, and then at night, they started to bomb at night, and this went on for, oh dear, four or five months maybe, maybe more. But every night, without doubt, without any problem, the siren would sound and then the bombers would come over. Then in the morning when it got light the all-clear would go. There was no guns, nothing. They just came over and did what they did. Then one night, one particular night, we were all there and waiting for the sirens to go and the sirens went, and we had an Anderson shelter in the garden and we went down there, sort of thing, and then the guns started. You never heard [cough] anything like it [chime] and all the guns down south were created in London, you know, mobile guns and everything and, um, they just fired hundreds of shells up in the air but they didn’t, they didn’t, they couldn’t target anything. They didn’t know anything about where they were or anything. They just fired everything and the idea was, apparently, I found out, was to raise morale of people — ‘cause every night they sat there and the bombs were coming on top of them and nothing was happening. So this, er, lot went up and — but they still carried on bombing and, er, we had a few two roads up that, um, dropped and killed some people and then they hit the gas, a big gasometer there, which was quite something that. That went up in a big flare [chimes]. It was a good mark but quite frankly I didn’t see, where I was in the west of London, I didn’t see a great deal. The one thing they did drop was an oil bomb which was a barrel full of crude oil with a detonator on it and that come down in Shepherds Bush Green. It didn’t do any damage but it made a mess, black muck everywhere. I can’t — that’s it as far as I was concerned, er, and then I joined the ATC and through that I used to cycle to the ATC and come back. And then I joined the fire watchers [slight laugh]. They brought out a thing, dousing the incendiaries, because this is what, what caused so much problem in London and everywhere, thousands of incendiaries came down, burned the roof and burned the place out. So they brought out voluntary fire parties and what you did you got together as a neighbourhood and you were issued with a stirrup pump and a bucket and, er, told how to put these fires out by laying on the floor and pressing the thing and one thing or another but if you pressed — put water directly on it it would just explode so you had to be very careful [cough]. So I did that for a while and then, as I say, I joined the ATC and used to go there and then the bombing receded then because that was the time, I believe, that the Germans were going into Russia. They wanted all their aircraft over there, most of them, and that was it. Then I joined the ATC. The V1s that caused — I’ve spoken to you about, at Clapham, when we were on the preliminary air crew training course, er, that was another sort of thing. Oh and by the way, um, when I was home, home in London I had a five-day leave — Chiswick was quite near us — but there one tremendous great explosion and, er, it blew some houses down and things and, er, people didn’t hear any aircraft or anything. And that was the actual first V1 rocket that hit the, hit the ground in London.
CB: First V2.
RD: V2, sorry, V2, yeah.
CB: Were there many refugees from the east of London coming your way. What happened with them?
RD: They all went in hotels and things along what they call Bayswater Road, which runs along Hyde Park, and they were all put in there, loads and loads of them, quite a lot from Malta to help them out, um, very good actually. They really looked after them I must admit, um, what was I going to say? Oh, the other thing is, what surprised me was after the war, er, Malta had, had been saturated with bombs and so many killed and this place was just wrecked. But they began to build it up and there was a guy apparently, I think called Mintoff, which was the president of all of them, the boss, and he asked our government for a million pound to help with the job and it was refused. Typical politics I suppose I’m afraid. But that’s life. Thank you very much.
CB: Thank you Ron. [recording device stops at 1:39:12:6 and restarts 1:39:17:01] This is just a summary of Ron’s situation. Even though he joined the RAF on 31st of January 1944 at Lords and Grove Court he never became operational during the hostilities. He’d chosen to be an air gunner and, er, was sent on a wireless operator course, with a view to then going to air gunner. However he ended up being shunted from pillar to post instead of actually going to, er, straight squadron operations. So various training he undertook included RAF regiment and educational training. He eventually left the RAF in 1947.
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Interview with Ronald George Doble
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-11-17
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Sound
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ADobleRG151117
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Doble grew up in London and joined the Air Training Corps and the fire watchers when war was declared. He volunteered for the Air Force when he was 18 and trained as an air gunner. He talks about the conditions in his turret and the mishaps he had with his crew. Ron was never operational and left the RAF in 1947. He then returned to his former job as a panel beater were he stayed until he retired. When he retired be became involved in the Air Crew Association.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Christine Kavanagh
Cathie Hewitt
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--London
England--Shropshire
England--Wiltshire
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
1945
1947
Language
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eng
Format
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01:40:15 audio recording
1653 HCU
21 OTU
97 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bombing
civil defence
displaced person
Heavy Conversion Unit
Initial Training Wing
Lancaster
Lincoln
military service conditions
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridgnorth
RAF Dalcross
RAF Moreton in the Marsh
RAF Yatesbury
Scarecrow
training
V-1
V-weapon
Wellington
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https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/484/8367/PBunceFSG1609.1.jpg
4fe6a915da9d42b5678afa0adccd7080
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/484/8367/ABunceFSG161108.2.mp3
c0704c95f5fe0c449e29736dbba3fd70
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Bunce, Sidney
Frederick Sidney George Bunce
F S G Bunce
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IBCC Digital Archive
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Bunce, FSG
Description
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Seven items. An oral history interview with Sidney Bunce (b. 1925, 3006260 Royal Air Force) notes, service material and four photographs. He served as an engine mechanic with 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford and at RAF Wratting Common with 195 Squadron.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Sidney Bunce and catalogued by Trevor Hardcastle.
Date
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2016-11-08
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the eighth of November two thousand and sixteen, and I’m in the village of Thornborough near Buckingham with Sid Bunce, and we’re going to talk about his time as an engineer in the RAF. So, what were your earliest recollections of life Sid?
FB: My early recollections, well, I was born in Lower End, Thornborough and, from then on, I stayed there until I was, ten years old and then by this time I had a brother Harold, he’s eight years younger than me, and er, we moved out of the Lower End into Bridge Street in Thornborough, and, Mother died in September nineteen thirty-six. I stayed with my Father, my brother he was, he went around to the police house where my Grandparents on the Baker side, my Mother’s side, they lived, and he was bought up with my Grandparents and an aunt, who was still unmarried and living there [pause] I was, I started school at Thornborough and I stayed there until I was eleven years old and took the eleven plus, and I, and I failed the eleven plus in so far as I got half way through, and in those days, I think if you, there were so many, erm, seats set aside at the [unclear] school, so that if you, if you got, if you didn’t get the full, er, the full marks that were required you could pay to go to school, but obviously my Father he couldn’t afford to do that. So, I went to what was called then, the Buckingham senior school, I stayed there until I was fourteen. When I left school in July, the war broke out in September nineteen thirty-nine, I wanted to be a motor mechanic and one Saturday afternoon my Father and I went up on the bus from Thornborough to Buckingham and saw a Mr Ganderton, who had a small garage. Unfortunately, the job had gone by the time we got there, so, went up to Cantells in West Street where my cousin Cyril worked as a shop assistant, and from there, he, my Father asked him if he knew of anyone who wanted a boy, and he said, the only one he knew of was Bert Campion who was a manager of E C Turner. He said, he wanted an errand boy, and er, so, we went to see Bert Campion and he asked me a few questions and er, I, he asked me when I could start, and I started work there on the Monday. I had about, I think it was, [pause] roughly about four months and I used to have to do the rounds, the deliveries, on a, each day in any case, and on this particular Saturday, Mr Campion he said, I want you to go across to Adcock’s and I want you to get a white jacket and an apron, and I did that and when I got back he said, I’m going to start you off serving in the shop, so for about a month, or so, I can’t remember, about a month anyway, he, only had one shop assistant and he sacked him and he put me into the, promoted me into the, as a shop assistant. I was very grateful to him in actual fact, because he taught me the bacon trade, and if you, I think if you gave me a side of bacon I could still, I could still bone it and cut it up as a, anyway, I stayed there until, I started to work there at eight shillings a week, that’s 40 pence now isn’t it, and by the time I was sixteen, I was getting a pound a week, and one of my best pals he was at a different place earning more money than I, but eventually, when I started work my Father was concerned for what I would do for a midday meal, because I was working in Buckingham, and I had an aunt and uncle who lived in Buckingham, and I went there for my lunch, from then until I went and joined the air force. But, [pause] I was upset in so far that I wasn’t earning very much money, and eventually my uncle said that they wanted a boy up in the garage at the United Dairies at Buckingham, and I started there, and I was in, I started in the garage. I learnt to drive on a milk lorry, I used to round on the milk, collecting milk and from then on [pause] Where have I got too? [pause] Yes, I started work at the United Dairies and I stayed there until I was called up in the air force, but in between times, the ATC was formed at Buckingham and I joined the ATC, and er, when I was seventeen I volunteered for aircrew, but I wanted to be a flight engineer, and actually the flight mechanics engine course which I did, I believe that was one of the training for flight engineer. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I didn’t, I was put on the volunteer reserve, told to wait for my call up, and I was eighteen on June the twelfth and I was in the air force on August the twenty four, joining at Padgate where I did what we called the square bashing and after that I was er, went to Blackpool, stationed at fourteen eighteen, er, 48 Osborne Road [unclear] shore and erm, we were taken by bus or coach to Squires Gate where we did the training as a flight mechanic engines. When I, it was an eighteen-week course and when I passed I was posted to 115 Squadron at Witchford. [background noise] I stayed there until 195 Squadron was reformed and they took our flight, C Flight of 195, er of 115, and called it A Flight of 195 and after the squadron was fully operational, for a month there were two squadrons operating out of Witchford, and then, 195 Squadron was transferred to Wratting Common. Theres an interesting story about that because there’s a Wratting and there’s West Wickham and other villages, and apparently, this is true anyway, at erm, when Wratting Common was opened in 1940, 1943 they called it West Wickham, and from my understand, the signals were getting crossed with High Wycombe, which is Bomber Command Headquarters, and so they renamed it as Wratting Common. I was there until the end of the war, when we were, when 195 was disbanded, from then I went to Mildenhall for a month, then I was put on an overseas posting, went to Blackpool, but did, was taken off before we were drafted out. Then I was posted to Wing and when Wing was closed down I moved to Silverstone, and we were the last unit in Silverstone when they closed Silverstone. We went up to Swinderby and then that was the end of my service, I went to Kirkham and that was where I was demobbed on April the first 1947.
CB: Okay, we’ll pause there for a moment
[recording paused]
CB: So, that’s a good trail of what you were doing. When you joined the RAF you’d been in the ATC so how did that prepare you for what you, what came next?
FB: Well, in actual fact, I joined the ATC because I wanted to go in the air force, I didn’t want to go in the navy, into the navy I’m not a lover of the sea, not sailing anyway, and as far as the army was concerned and after what I’d seen of my poor Father went through in the First World war, in his health. I was interested in aircraft anyway, and so I joined the ATC. We had a very good warrant officer in charge, Mike Westly, he was a very good instructor and taught us the basics of learning to, er, foot drill, not rifle drill, we didn’t have anything to do with rifles, and so of course when I went on my interview for the air force I didn’t have any problems at all with the foot drill. Rifle drill came quite easy, and it, think it really put me on a good footing for service in the air force, in the air force
CB: So, when you were doing your initial training, erm, then what did you actually do in that initial training at Padgate, activities? You had to do the drill, but what did you do overall?
FB: Well, erm, [pause] let me see
CB: So, it was learning about the RAF?
FB: Yes, we had to, you know, get kitted out and obviously we had to do our spit and polishes, record it
CB: Of your boots?
FB: The erm [pause] I remember we have to make sure with our shoes that they were highly polished and the buttons, we used to have to clean our buttons and [unclear] issued with erm, a kit for cleaning and also for, if I remember rightly sort of doing simple needlework, in so far as sewing on badges or whatever, that kind of thing
CB: And cleaning your
FB: We had some, we had some sport, that actually, that, if I remember rightly, that was an eight week course, yes, eight week course, actually we were there, I was there ten weeks, but that was the fact that we didn’t start training straight away, for whatever reason, I don’t know, I also know that Warrington was the nearest town and we weren’t allowed to go in there, apparently there’d been some problems with the Americans, [laughs] think fighting or whatever, something like that, so I think it was actually, we were put out of bounds, I didn’t miss that anyway. But after the, after that, if I remember rightly, we came home on seven days leave and then had to report back to erm, Blackpool
CB: So, Blackpool was the base for technical training for you, for engineering?
FB: Yes, well yes, Blackpool, we were bused down to Squires Gate into the airfield, and we did our training in one of the hangars, which consisted of, that was eighteen-week course, it composed of fortnightly VV’s as they called it, verbal verification, and the first fortnight we were given [laughs] a lump of metal and a file, and we had to file this lump of metal into whatever shape we were told to do, and that lasted for a fortnight, and after the fortnight you had a verbal verification. So, asked various questions on the, what you’ve been doing for that fortnight, and if you passed you went on to the next stage, if you failed you stayed on and were put back for another fortnight, and if you failed you were kicked out. Fortunately, all of our entry, not one failed. But, after the first fortnight, um, oh I’m a bit hazy on how it worked now, but the next, the next fortnight you had another verbal verification and you had to get a percentage of the questions asked, right and then you went on to the next stage. And I well remember, that eventually, we got to where the stage where we had to dismantle an engine, and one of our entry, he always had the top marks, most of us used to struggle through, and get through the minimum marks required to continue. He was always on top and he, and when we came to taking the engine, dismantling the engine, and we were taught how to take it apart and put them all in sections so that you knew when you went to replace it and put them back, he, he was hopeless, but anyway he did manage to get through and eventually at the end, the last fortnight, I was, erm, revision, and so, we revised all that we’d been trained to do and erm, then you had to go and, if I remember rightly, there was all these various parts out on benches and you had to identify them and what they did, and all the rest of it, and I passed out as an AC2, which meant, the majority of us did, but this, this, funny enough, this chap who wasn’t very good at dismantling engines and reassessing them, he passed out as an AC1 [laughs] and he went straight on to train as an instructor. But, I was posted to 115 Squadron [pause]
CB: So, you come to the end of the course and what do they do as a formality in documentation and parade?
FB: Do you mean, I can’t remember having anything, anything to say that you, I can’t remember, I don’t think we had anything to
CB: I was just thinking of when you get posted to a squadron, they want to know you’re competent, and you might do that with a passing out certificate
FB: I can’t recollect having a pass out certificate
CB: Might be in your service record, we’ll have a look. Okay, so you passed out there, there was a marching parade was there, to mark the end of the course?
FB: Er, oh yeh, well of course, so yes, we were [laughs] during the course at Padgate, then you had the parades
CB: Yeh
FB: On the Sunday, you had the parade on Sunday and so forth, and the band, I used to like, we had a pipe band, I used to like marching behind the pipe band rather [laughs] than a brass band or a silver band
CB: So, you are formed up on the parade square, there are separate sections, and the ones who are passing out are supported by the following courses, is that right? And then you get reviewed by a reviewing officer [pause] and then you march past and the reviewing officer takes the salute, is that right?
FB: Oh yes, we had to march past and salute, yes, I think that was [pause] as far as I remember, and that’s all it was
CB: And then, after that, did they give you a bunfight?
FB: No
CB: Nothing, just disperse
FB: No, we just passed out and got on with it
CB: Yeh, how soon did you then report to the squadron, 115?
FB: I came, yes, but I think I came home on seven days, I think it was seven days leave and then [pause]
CB: So, when you
FB: Yes, I had to, I had to report to RAF Witchford [pause] now I had, had a railway pass obviously, and had to go from Bletchley to Cambridge [pause] I can’t remember the next station
CB: Cambridge up to Ely
FB: Ely, that’s right. Oh yes, then we, we picked up, erm, a lorry
CB: What was the rank and status that you had then?
FB: I was AC2, AC2. While I was at Witchford, I had to, for erm, sort of erm, promotion if you call it that. I had to, an interview and was asked various questions on, well, what you knew and what you were capable of, and I passed for that, and I was AC1. I was still AC1 when we left Witchford before Wratting Common, and there again, one of the sergeants after we’d been there, been there a while, I took another exam if you like, and I passed that and became a LAC, and I was an AC for the rest of my service
CB: When you arrived at Witchford, what process did they put you through in linking you with the squadron?
FB: Well, one, obviously gone on parade and I can’t remember, but I was sort of allocated to this group with a, I’ve forgotten the sergeants name now, but erm, so I joined this, I joined this, basically the group, the small group was responsible for two aircraft, you know the pans were sort of, not too far away from one another, based round the airfield, and
CB: The pans are where the aircraft are parked?
FB: Actually stand, yeh, yeh, and as I was a sprog, newly trained, the sergeant, he put me with an older fitter, not much older, but name of Malcolm Buckingham, and we worked together on the same plane, from then right through until the end of the war, but, the sergeant, he was a very, very, very good sergeant, he knew exactly what you were capable of and he wouldn’t let you do anything until he knew you were capable of doing it, and the one of the things that you did have to make sure of when you was pulling the chocks away, to take, that you run backwards and not forward otherwise you [bang noise] you run into the propellers. Well, we did our daily inspections, DI’s, and obviously we did all the checking. If there had been any faults reported, minor faults that we could do, out on the flights, we did, if they were major they used to have to go into the hangars. But, when, as far as the operations was concerned, when, if you, normal working time was erm, eight till five, but if you were on what they called take off, you still worked from eight till five, then you went down to, well to have your meals, but you had to get back on to the air, onto the airfield an hour before take-off [pause] The crew, when the air crews were bought out and left in their different planes, I worked on A4D-Dog and the other one was A4C- Charlie, they were the two planes, but basically what happened, the aircrew came out and obviously they would have a look around, to check that everything was okay, and also inside, and when it was time to start up, one of us used to get up under the undercart, as we used to call it, under the wheels where the [unclear] gas pumps were, and there was two [unclear] gas pumps, there was one for the starboard inner and one for the starboard outer, one for port inner and one for the port outer, and you jumped up and one of you went up there and primed it, the other stayed on the trolley where the batteries were on the trolley, and when the skipper was ready to start up, he used to, well, obviously they were all, all, night operations, so if it was dark we used to get the skipper to just put his Nav lights on and off, so when I used to do the priming and when I used to press the button, and the start all four engines up, and they did the run up, we used to, when we were doing the DI’s in the morning we used to take them up to about three thousand revs a minute and then test the mags, switch each magneto off one at a time, and if there was a revs drop more than one hundred revs, then we had to do a change, a plug change. When they done there, when they done they’re run off, well, we used to take and pull the chocks out and away they went and we used to wait up there until all of them had taken off, and then as far as you were concerned you were finished until the following morning. But, if you were on all night as they called it, then the same procedure happened in as far as I you get up an hour onto the airfield, an hour before take-off and when they’d all gone you were able to go back to your billet or to the NAAFI, you couldn’t obviously, you couldn’t leave the airfield, and then you were told what the ETA was, and you would get on up to the airfield, an hour before they were expected back. I used to say to erm, well you, the, whoever you, whoever you see [unclear] I used to say to them, ‘flash D in morse, or C for Charlie’, then you knew which pan to put them on, and when they came and you put them on, on, on the pan, you used to get the ladder out, and they used to come out and you used to ask them if there was any snags, and if there were any snags, then you went and reported them to the flight office. After they’d gone, you used to go back and put the locking bars in, chocks underneath and shut it up and that was your, then you were finished, then you could go back and you had the following day off
CB: When you talk about locking bars, these are the effectively the clamps that stop the control surfaces,
FB: Stop it, yeh
FB: So, in the wind they wont
FB: That’s right
CB: Flail around
FB: That’s right
CB: Right, okay. Now as an air mechanic, what was your specific role, because everybody mucked in, but actually you had a specific, which was engine was it?
FB: Oh, engines
CB: Yeh
FB: Yes
CB: Right
FB: So, you see there was erm, there was two engine mechanics if you like
CB: Yeh
FB: And, a rigger for air frame, sort of for each, and obviously the, all the ancillary, so the armourers, the electricians and all of those, and of course did their own, their own job [pause]
CB: For each aircraft, so that there would be a Chiefy, he’d be a flight sergeant?
FB: Well
CB: Or what? ’Cos the gang effectively
FB: The gang, it was a sergeant
CB A sergeant, yes
FB: Sometimes there was two sergeants and a corporal, it just all depends how it was, but erm, yes, there was a sergeant in charge of you
CB: Yes
FB: In your little gang
CB: So, in the team, the gang, you had a sergeant, two engine mechanics, a rigger, an electrician?
FB: Well, there was a, yes, an electrician and of course
CB: And the armourer
FB: But when they bought the bombs out
CB: Yes
FB: The armourers, they, they obviously, they did the bombing up
CB: Yeh
FB: Winching up into the bomb bays
CB: So, the bombs came on trolleys?
FB: [inaudible]
CB: How did they get the bombs up into the bomb bay?
FB: Well, they put them, obviously the bomb doors were open
CB: Yep
FB: One of the armourers would go up into the plane and they sort of winched them up, they’d draw them up on
CB: An electric winch?
FB: Yes, draw them up on that, and then when they were secured, erm
CB: Where was the winch operated from?
FB: More often, but it all depends what the target was going to be, where they were going, but generally it was, it could be a load of incendiaries
CB: Yep
FB: And then perhaps a four thousand pounder or an eight thousand pounder, and then they got larger, but that was generally the load. Sometimes it would be thousand pounders, it just all depended on what the target was going to be and obviously the crew would never tell you where they were going, you wouldn’t expect them to, but they might say where they’d been but very, very, very rarely, you could get a rough idea where they may be going or what area, because of the bomb load and the fuel load, because depending on, I think if I remember right, erm, Berlin it would be almost full tanks, if I remember right, I think the Ruhr, depending where it was, sometimes it would be about seventeen fifty gallons, coming er, coming nearer to home it would be fifteen, yeh, fifteen hundred gallons, if I remember when we were [unclear] up for D Day, we were doing two ops. We used to have to get up at four o’clock in the morning er, and get up on the airfield, 1944 that was a really cold winter [laughs] we had to, well, the engines, we didn’t, we weren’t too badly off because we’d put a load of lanolin grease on the leading edges of the props and the erm, main plane, but the poor old riggers they used to have to go and de-ice the Perspex and all the rest of it [laughs] What that consisted of, we engine ones used to have a can of antifreeze, a drum of antifreeze and a stirrup pump, and the airframe, they used to have to go up onto the, onto the, on the main plane obviously, and erm, they used to have to spray the Perspex to clear them, that was quite a job
CB: What did they do? How did they clear them, they didn’t just scrape them did they?
FB: No, it was just a stirrup pump, you see, you spray it
CB: Yes, but what were they spraying? Was that antifreeze as well?
FB: Oh yes, because they got to clear the you know, the cockpit
CB: Yeh
FB: And the mid upper gunner, and all the rest of it. Tail end Charlie he was [laughs] I wouldn’t have wanted to do that job
CB: The rear gunner?
FB: Hmm, no
CB: You mentioned about the leading edges, so on the props and on the leading edges of the main plane
FB: Lanolin grease
CB: Right, yeh, right, so you spread that on with your hands or best with stick, yeh, okay, and that worked, did it?
FB: Oh yes, that worked, yeh, yeh
CB: What about things like the Peto head, you really couldn’t put anything on that could you?
FB: No, no
CB: Okay, so starting, you’ve got a trolley ack
FB: Yeh
CB: How do you go about starting?
FB: Well
CB: So, the trolley ack being the trolley accumulator
FB: Well, that’s plugged in, its, its plugged in, as I say you go up
CB: Into the engine bay, is it?
FB: Hmm
CB: Right
FB: Then, one of you, as I say, went up on the on top of the wheel in other words
CB: Yes
FB: Undercarriage, and there are these [unclear] gas pumps, and when they, the skipper was ready to start up, you used, you used to prime them, er, basically it was more like a choke on a car I would think, but you used to give them, they probably need perhaps about six or eight pumps, each pump, and while you were doing that, of course the, your mate, he was pressing the button to, where it was plugged in, to turn the engines over
CB: What was this stuff that gave the extra urge, it wasn’t an ethanol something, what was the material, what was the erm, fluid that you were pumping in to give it that surge of
FB: Oh, that was, that was petrol
CB: It was just neat petrol?
FB: Hmm
CB: Right
FB: ‘Cos you got your, obviously you got your blowers as we used to call it, it’s at the trunk, that erm, built it up
CB: Yeh
FB: You got your mixture and, away she went
CB: So, what was the engine starting sequence?
FB: Erm, you start the starboard engine, starboard engine, inner engine first
CB: Right, what
FB: Where the hydraulics are, so if that didn’t, obviously if you hadn’t any hydraulics you didn’t have brakes or anything else. And er, [unclear] it all depended on what, on what the pilot wanted to do, but that one was first, then probably it would be the starboard outer, because if you started off on that side, well obviously, you’ve got to go round to the other side to start the others up, so, yeh
CB: So, you moved the trolley ack each time or was there one trolley ack each side?
FB: Well, no, you moved it and plugged it in
CB: Yeh, okay
FB: I nearly always went up on, I nearly always went up on the wheel and did the pumping
CB: Now, this is pretty close to the propellers, so what was the procedure to make sure people didn’t walk into a propeller?
FB: Well actually, when er, when all the engines were running and they were ready to move off, you had to make sure that your chock, it was no good you see, you had the rope
CB: Attached to the chock?
FB: From the, attached to the chock
CB: Just to explain, the chock is holding the wheel
FB: But, the point is this, it was no good if you, where the knot was
CB: Yes
FB: Where it was knotted, it was no good putting the knot and straight through there, because you wouldn’t move them, you could not pull it out, ‘cos normally the wheels would move just a little bit onto the chock you see, so what you had to do, you put your chock and you run your, from here, round the front of the chock and back there, and then when you pulled it, you see, that pulled it out like that, if you did, you couldn’t get it out, if you did, it was a straight pull, it had to go round and pull it out
CB: Right, so, the
FB: And when you did that, as you pulled it, you ran backwards, no good running forwards, you ran backwards and that was it
CB Right, and there’s a chock each side of the wheel?
FB: Oh yeh
CB: And when
FB: There was, just in front of the wheel, but each wheel had the chock obviously
CB: Not just at the front
FB: Yeh
CB: Okay, at what point would the chocks normally, would they have been put in? When would the chocks normally have been put up against the wheel?
FB: Oh well, you put the, when the er, a plane for instance would come back afterwards, you, you put the chocks on straight away
CB: When its landed?
FB: When its landed, yeh
CB: So, the plane is a light at that point and when you start it up its heavy because it’s got the bombs and the fuel on, so that pushes the tyre down onto the chock
FB: Well, just
CB: Making it difficult to pull away
FB: Yes, as I say it was straight pulled, it wouldn’t come
CB: No
FB: You had to do it then and there
CB: Right
FB: Yeh
CB: So, at that point what does the ground crew do as the aircraft starts up to taxiing?
FB: Well, the er, as I say, when er, when er, they started up, done the run up, it was out turn to go off round the perimeter track to the runway, then erm, those of you there, you always used to stop until they’d all gone off
CB: Watch them go?
FB: And er, well, there’s a little bit I’ll tell you about
CB: Okay
FB: Er, later on, erm, what else, as I say, if there were any snags, but you went back to the flight office anyway
CB: Right
FB: When both planes were back, and you went and you reported, and of course the crew had been taken off for debriefing, and, when you, when your two planes are back you were finished, you could go back. You used to go back and have a meal and then go into bed and have the rest of the day off
CB: Yes, I’m just trying to get the sequence here because, to give people an idea of just how it went. So, at take-off, you, they’ve done the run up, checked and tested the engine, run up, chocks away
FB: Yes
CB: And then, what do you do as a ground crew, do you watch them go and then go for meal or how did that work?
FB: Just watch them, yes
CB: ‘Cos the
FB: I think everybody, I was taken all round the circuit
CB: Yes
FB: We always used to stop and watch them go off until they’d all gone. There was one incident [pause] obviously they, when they took off they used to go round and then they used to rendezvous where they had to go before [unclear] rendezvous to go out on their raid, and one night there was a [laughs] an awful crump and er, they erm, there was a four thousand pounder, something had gone wrong and it
CB: A cookie fell out?
FB: It fell out, yeh [laughs] oh dear, well, these things happened. The worst thing that happened, I’ve got it, I marked it there to show you. German night fighters used to, would follow them back. When I was with 115, they shot two of our planes down, because obviously they didn’t always come back together, they’d come at intervals and you stayed there until your two planes had come back. Fortunately, touch wood, old Buck and I, we never lost a plane, but that was exceptional er, I suppose, but this particular night they, you see, what they did when they came back, well, they had to wait their turn to land, and so, obviously they used to do a circuit, and it was on one of these circuits that this plane was coming in to land and er, this night fighter shot it down, they were all killed, they all lost their lives, both crews, they both, but at different intervals, the same night, we lost two
CB: What was the reaction of their individual ground crews to the loss of their aircraft?
FB: well, I don’t really know because I never lost one, but I suppose they’d be, I presume they’d be allocated another, I don’t really know about that
CB: I wondered if it was spoken about when you were in the NAAFI or somewhere, or did people ever talk about it, or did they just keep on?
FB: No, no, they didn’t talk about it, no
CB: Right, now what about accommodation, what did you have in?
FB: We were in nissen huts
CB: Right, how many in a nissen hut?
FB: Oh, what would it be [pause] one, two, three, four [pause] about twelve I think
CB: And how was the nissen hut heated?
FB: Oh, a stove, a coke stove [pause] Ah, [emphasis] we used to have a stove, up in the, in the erm, [pause] in the hut, where we, you know, kept the tools and all the different stuff in there, there was a stove in there, to sort of, keep it warm, and [pause] there is, have this coke, I mean, sort of filled it up, lit it and basically that was [pause] I mean for a lot of the time, for a lot of the morning anyway, erm, you was still working, you know, you were doing your DI’s you see, daily inspection, coal was off and of course with the Lancaster, you had to get up on these gantry’s because there was no, it was different to when I was on Wellingtons, had to, when I got round to [unclear] and Silverstone, I mean you could get on there, used to slide down the back, down the main frame on the Wellington [laughs] we used to get up there, on a Lancaster you couldn’t, oh dear
CB: So
FB: 44, that was a cold winter
CB: So, how did you deal with the cold on the flight line, in other words, out on the dispersal?
FB: Well, you, you see, you had mittens on because you can’t really feel with gloves on, it, you had to keep your fingers sort of [inaudible] [laughs] the weirdest thing was ever, if you had to do a plug change, and if you happened to drop a plug down in the trunk, of course they were v engines, you see, you could drop one down there, and that used to be a dickens of a job to get the blooming thing back out [laughs] to put it in, ah, but, at least they say live and learn, and you did
CB: You talk about a plug change, that’s because you’d get misfire was it or was there a sequence where you changed all the plugs?
FB: Yeh well, if the er, if the, obviously your magneto, it’s like a dynamo, in so far as supplying the spark
CB: Yes
FB: But if er, they dropped back there, then obviously, it’s erm, you wouldn’t need a, it wouldn’t need a, very doubtful it would be the magneto, so it would be a plug or plugs, that weren’t firing properly to do that. We didn’t have a lot of trouble, I mean that old Merlin, it was a lovely engine to work on, no problem at all really
CB: In what way was it good to work on?
FB: Pardon?
CB: In what way was it good to work on?
FB: Well, it was [pause] the construction of it, mind you, everything it was bonded, so, when you, when you took your coverings off to do your, check them, you had to check them, every one of those, and if there was, if there was any bonding broken, then obviously that had to be replaced, you see, it was for erm, obviously for the electricity, for it was a static electricity, you didn’t want anything like that, with the petrol, I mean that was a hundred octane petrol, so that was green and that was pretty horrible [laughs] oh dear
CB: Did anybody get fires on the ground?
FB: Fires?
CB: Engine fires or any kind of?
FB: No, erm, now where was that? [pause] I think that was at Wratting Common. The plane had been, been in the hangers for overhaul or whatever, I don’t know what, and the, they’d obviously had the under propeller off for some reason or other, and when they bought it out and they started it, it come off, flew off, erm but I only, I didn’t actually see it, I heard that it happened, but er, say, that plane A4D-Dog, that’s the one where this crew did a complete tour of ops, actually, that went on to do a hundred and five ops
CB: Did it
FB: But, by the time that stayed behind on, because it was on C-Flight, by that time, er, when we were, 195 was reformed, we had worked on it, Buck and I worked on it and I think they had done, either fifty nine or sixty ops, but that went on, on the history of it, to do one hundred and five, which erm, when, well when the, of course I was at 195 at Wratting Common then, but erm, when the Dutch, when they were in that, after the invasion had started and they were liberated, we went on what they called Manna, which was dropping the food supplies to them. So, we went on that and then after that, when that had finished, we started bringing back the prisoners of war
CB: Operation Exodus
FB: Yes
CB: Okay, let’s just pause there for a moment, you just have a breather
[interview paused]
FB: There’s one thing
CB: These gantries you had to use?
FB: We never had to do was wear a ring
CB: Ah
FB: Because if you wore a ring and you slipped, that would rip your finger off, you see, so, I never wore a ring anyway, I’ve never ever worn a ring in that case, but you never wore a ring. It’s like a lot of things, its common sense, I mean, there are things but obviously you shouldn’t do but if you do, well you suffer by it, really. We used to, well, I mean, oh crikey, I was only eighteen [laughs] eighteen, nineteen years old, I mean, we used to clamber up them no problem at all [pause]
CB: How safe were these gantries you used?
FB: Oh, they, they were safe enough, if I mean er, it was just a matter of climbing up on the, onto and getting on the platform, yeh they were safe enough, you didn’t have, well I didn’t hear of anyone getting injured by falling off them or anything like that
CB: So, on the flight line on the dispersal, you had a team of people we talked about just now, what would make it necessary for the aircraft to go into a hangar?
FB: If they had a major, for instance if there, had been on a raid, and they were badly shot up or anything like that, well, obviously they would go in, into for repair, er, if an engine, well, if anything really, but engines in particular, if there any major fault or [unclear] then you couldn’t do that, that was somethings obviously, you could do minor repairs on the flights but if it was a major repair well it had to go into the hangar because you just wouldn’t have the facilities or anything else to do it
CB: What about engine changes?
FB: One thing you used, well, as far as engine changes were concerned, I never experienced an engine change because as I say, the planes that I worked on we didn’t lose any, that Malcolm Buckingham and I worked on, but erm, I remember, if, if, if they had been out on a raid and they couldn’t get back to their base, [background noise] there was at Woodbridge, there’s two airfields, one was the Americans on and the other one which was what, we used to call them the crash land station, basically it was one plane that couldn’t get back to their main airbase, but they could get down there, and they used to go down there. And, what happened in that er, base, although obviously I never experienced it, but if a plane didn’t get back to, for instance, Witchford or to Wratting Common, if they didn’t get back there then the crew that serviced them they used to go over to service them and put them right and then they flew back to the base
CB: And, did that ground crew take, erm, road transport or did they get flown there?
FB: I think they took road transport. I’m not too sure about that because as I say I never experienced it but that’s what happened
CB: How many times did you have the opportunity of flying, in the aircraft you serviced?
FB: Well, no, if erm, if we are doing an air test you could go up if you wanted to, but it just all depends
CB: Why were air tests conducted, what was the purpose?
FB: When you went on an air test, obviously they would test the engines, so what they used to do, was, switch one off, off at a time and you know, get the reaction of erm, for instance mag drop, things like that. They used to try and test all four, one at a time, and then they would feather them, you know, and of course when you feather them, then of course you un feathered them to start them up again and all that and the old Lanc, that would fly on one engine, but obviously it was forever losing height, but they did these air tests just to see that everything that had been done was working as it should do. I didn’t go on many, but erm
CB: Where would you sit when you went up on an air test?
FB: Well, of course, with the full crew there, you would sit on the floor kind of thing [laughs] that weren’t very comfortable
CB: No, thinking of the
FB: And the poor old, the rear gunner, he was the worse off really because he was so far away from the rest of the crew you see, you’ve got your pilot and then your flight engineer, er, your bomb aimer observer and then of course the wireless operator had got his own little bit and the navigator [pause] [unclear] because er, well it depended on where they were going, but you get eight or nine hours, stuck up in one of those and [pause] no, I don’t think its er [pause] It’s marvellous what they did actually
CB: You said you originally wanted to be flight engineer but once you got on the flight line
FB: I must, I must admit that when I’d done my training and I went out on a and saw what was happening, I thought, well I thank my lucky stars I don’t, of course I was on the volunteer reserves, so if ever they did want a [pause] sort of a flight engineer, I suppose I would have been called up, because the flight engineer, as I say, the flight engineer as far as I can understand, their engine training was similar to what we did as a flight mechanic engines, it was just the extra, erm, you know with the checking the fuel pumps and that, switching the switch in the tanks and er, and I think that they did a little bit of basic flying if the pilot, you know, got injured or killed or anything like that, to take over, and er, but, so no it must have been. You could tell and get quite a good idea of, I mean, no target was easy, I mean there was always a danger there, but you could get a pretty good idea, if they were quite chirpy when they came out it was one of the not so difficult raids they were going on, but if it were Berlin or anything like that or, always they were very quiet which you could understand
CB: Yeh
FB: ‘Cos they not only had to put up with night fighting, there was anti-aircraft guns, must have been horrible
CB: How often did your two planes return with damage?
FB: Er
CB: And what was it?
FB: [pause] Do you know I can’t remember, if they ever did come back with any damage that I worked on [pause] no, I know that was when we were at er, at Wratting Common, about 1944, one night I heard, when, when they started sending these erm, oh, doodlebugs over, but er, they sounded, their engine, it sounded like an old two stroke engine struggling up a hill, [laughs] up a hill, kind of thing, and er, and of course the thing was once the engine cut, they come down, and this particular night, I went to the Nissen huts and there was some windows at the end, but not the end in between sort of thing, and actually saw this old doodlebug going and the engine cut, and it went down and it fell, and it fell just outside of the airfield [laughs] oh dear, it was an experience
CB: What was the most frightening part of your service, which would you say?
FB: Most frightening? [pause] I don’t really know, I do recall one thing that was happening, now when they were winching, winching erm, [unclear] it was a four pounder,
[unknown inaudible]
FB: Four thousand pounder, I think that was when
CB: A cookie
FB: Loading a four thousand pounder up, and it dropped, and we ran, we ran, and then we suddenly realised that if it had gone off, if it had gone off, we wouldn’t have been there, but er, the trouble was with the, if the incendiaries fell, I think they only had to drop about nine inches before they, and they were in long canisters, and there was a sort of bars that when, I suppose, that when the bomb aimer pressed the tip, then I suppose these bars fell away and then they just fell down in a cluster, I don’t know
CB: And er, you saw the, you were there when the crew got in the plane to go
FB: Oh yes
CB: And you were there when they came back, what sort of erm, relationship did you have with your ground crew with them?
FB: Very good, very good, yeh
CB: And so, did they talk to you when they landed?
FB: As I say, they, [unclear] what they, you used to say, ask them if there were any snags, if there were they told you what they were, but erm, they didn’t say, they didn’t say a lot, I mean, they were just waiting for the lorries, or whatever they were using to take them back for debriefing and they would say they were tired and I don’t know what they experienced, you know
CB: Quite
FB: So, but er, other times, I mean, if they, sometimes they would come out, because they weren’t, if I think, I think that what they used to say that happen one day, two raids and then down one, of course they had the leave as well, they didn’t all have the leave at the same time, so they would, they er, say if the erm, pilot was on leave or something, there’d be another pilot take over. Quite often what happened, with a crew, when they come out and then, there was a new crew had been, er, sent to Witchford, the pilot would go as a, I think they call it, a second dicky or something like that, but they used to go out, they were taken out on their first raid
CB: Just the pilot?
FB: To get the idea that and what it was all about
CB: What about the social life on the airfield?
FB: Well, what we used to do if er, [pause] when you, well you see, you used to get up and have your breakfast and then get up back onto the flight, er onto the airfield and do your work, and in the evening you could go to the NAAFI, or down into the village into the pub, which quite often that’s what we did do, and erm, [pause] I can’t remember the other, we had a cinema, I can’t even remember going to the cinema anyway, probably we did, and of course we spent a lot of time in your billet writing letters, you know, home and that kind of thing
CB: Did they run dances?
FB: Erm, [pause] no, not that I’m aware of
CB: Right, so Witchford we’ve talked a lot about, what was the difference, when you went to Wratting Common?
FB: The difference? [emphasis]
CB: Was your accommodation different or the same?
FB: No, no it was still Nissen, still Nissen huts, much about the same as at Witchford, ‘cos erm, 115 of course that was one of the most successful and er, and suffered some of the heaviest losses during the war, but, at Wratting Common, I of course, I was nineteen, 1944, when we moved into, into er, Wratting Common, I can’t remember, I didn’t have all that long at Witchford actually, I’ve forgotten though. It was definitely 1944 when we moved over to Wratting Common anyway
CB: Yes, so, you were at Wratting Common until
FB: The war ended
CB: The war ended, that is to say the war in Europe
FB: Yes
CB: Ended
FB: Yes, yes
CB: Okay, and so
FB: I think we, I think, [pause] I think it was 1946 when we actually disbanded
CB: The squadron disbanded? Yeh
FB: [pause] I’ve got some [background noise] [inaudible]
CB: And so, everybody stayed with the squadron and until the squadron disbanded, is that what you mean?
FB: Yes
CB: Yeh [pause] we are just looking at timings. So, what happened, er, we can look that up later, what happened when they decided to disband? How did that get announced?
FB: Well, as, [laughs] as far as we were concerned, they said we were disbanded and that’s one thing I always regretted because I’d always worked with Malcolm Buckingham and we never exchanged addresses or anything else, meaning we didn’t keep in touch
CB: Did you never?
FB: No
CB: Know what happened to him at all?
FB: No, and when I, when we were on holiday, he came from a little village called Grundisburgh near er, that’s not that far away from Woodbridge, and we went to on holiday to er, Yarmouth or something, well down that way anyway, and I drove round, well, that was us and the two children, I drove round to this little village, and er, I went into the pub and I said does anyone know a gentleman called Malcolm Buckingham, and they said, oh no, never heard of him and that was as near as I got to actually ever finding him. The other one I palled up with, which is on the, on one of those photographs is erm, he was a Scotsman, ‘McKay the Jock McIver,’ and he lived at Thurso, and he used to get an extra days travelling for the distance he had to travel, but if the three of us were off duty at, at you know, we used to go down, generally used to go down the pub and have a pint or two and a sing song and that, ‘cos aircrew used to down in there as well you see. And erm, it was alright in the NAAFI, we used to go, you could go in the NAAFI. If I remember right, sometimes, and I think that was towards the end of the war anyway, if I remember right, they used to have this ‘housey, housey.’ as they used to call it in the old days, bingo, you know and that, but I think mainly we used to just go down the pub and have a pint. [laughs] I was trying to look see [pause]
CB: So, so you had no control over your demob, they just decided when that would be?
FB: Well, you, you had your group you see, I was fifty-five, when I, my group, when I got demobbed
CB: In your grouping, yeh, which was, so you were demobbed on the first of April 1947
B: 1947, yeh
CB: What did you do then?
FB: Well, I came home and erm, you had accrued, erm, what was it? Fifty, I think fifty-six days, fifty-six days leave, er, yeh, and I think owed fifty pounds demob money [pause] it all depends, I think, but erm, fifty-six days leave, I think that was a, er, minimum, I think it probably, if you did more service than that or where ever you’d been, they may, I’m not sure about that, that may possible have been longer, but I think fifty-six was a, sort of a general thing
CB: What did they give you in the way of clothing, when you were demobbed?
FB: Oh yeh, you handed in your suit and you got kitted out with the, well, with shoes, socks, pants, vest, shirt, erm, now I think I’m not sure whether you could have a choice of a suit or these sorts of flannels and a jacket, I can’t remember, what did I have? I know one thing, that when I, when I joined up at Padgate, of course we had to send er, send erm, civilian clothes home, and mine never, mine never ever arrived, they were lost, which I think happened quite often, but er, yeh
CB: So, you got your leave, you come back, then what?
FB: I think I, yeh, I think I had a fourth, two months and then I went back to the United Dairies because they were duty bound, or anyone went back to their old job, or wanted to go back to their old job, I think the companies were duty bound to take them for six months. So, of course, I went back and er, [laughs] Jack Hancock, he said, ‘are you coming back in the garage with me?’ and I said, ‘I’d like to go driving if you’ve got a driving job,’ and that’s what I did. I stayed there until I was thirty four, and that was November nineteen fifty nine, I moved then, the only reason I moved was for more money, and I’d got a brother in law who works at Calvert, and he used to say, ‘you want to get on, you’ll be far better off coming to work for Calvert driving,’ and I said, ‘ah well,’ I said, ‘the problem is you get up on eight wheelers and you’ve [laughs] got to do nights out, and he said, ‘well, that won’t hurt you will it?’ But, anyway, that’s what happens, you started off on the small lorries, on the little old Albion’s
CB: [inaudible]
FB: G wagons, they were about two, what was it? two and a half thousand bricks, and then you went up onto the D, and then a K, then a L, and eventually onto eight wheelers. I had ten years on eight wheelers, I came off, my father in law had, had a stroke and er, and Mum she, she passed away, and he was living with us and, well, they were both living with us for a time, and er, he was getting a bit of a problem at night, they was having a bit of a problem dealing with him in the night, and erm, we’d got the two children of course, so I asked if I could be excused nights out, and they said, no you, that would cause a precedent if we do that, and the only answer to it is if you don’t want to do nights out, is you’ll have to come off eight wheelers, so I said, that’s what I’ll do then, but erm, I went on the stores like, the stores wagon and various jobs around the yard, and erm, when the old chap, when he died, but, see we used to start work at six until half past five, we used to do eleven hours a day, that was Monday to Saturday, and then we went down to five days a week, and erm, and eventually, ‘cos there was no motorways when I started at the Calvert, there, there was that short stretch of M1 that had opened in. I think that was in June nineteen fifty nine, I’m not sure and we never used the M1 anyway, but when they built the M4, and the M5 and the M6, we used all of those, and er, [pause] you had, before, before they were built and opened you had to stop to, wherever you were going, you had to stop on your, the route that you were supposed, for instance, if we were going down to, down into Wales, well, we used to go from Calvert to Oxford, from Oxford we used to go then into Cheltenham, Gloucester, Chepstow and then wherever in Wales it was, of course when they opened the M4, we were able to go from Calvert to Swindon, get on the M4, went down straight there, and so, and of course you used to get, when you were on nights out, you used to get your night out money, well er, when these motorways were opened, what would have been night out journeys, it was still night out journeys as far as the company were concerned, but you could get back almost to, you could get back to Aylesbury or Weston on the Green, depending where, and you could thumb a lift home and get back in the morning or whenever, and you used to get your night out money, well of course the company soon got wise about that, and so what we, there was this particular, this big map put in the driver’s room, and there was Calvert there like that, and then there was a five mile radius, up to hundred miles radius, and so, the farther you went, the more you earned, the more you were paid, and but, a lot of them soon got wise, and they thought if they could get two shorter journeys allocated to them, then they could do two journeys and they’d get twice as much money, you see, but I never bothered, by this time I was about fifty one, fifty two and I said to them, I said, to them one day, I’ve had enough of this cowboy driving and I’m going to find another job. As luck happens, I’m out every night, there was, you were put, the list and where you were going the following day, well, on the Friday, on this particular Friday, there was a notice on the notice board advertising a vacancy for a garage maintenance clerk, and I said to Tom Ridgeway who was the foreman at that time, I said, ‘I’m going to put in for that job Tom,’ ‘well,’ he said, ‘you can put in for it, whether you’ll get it or not I don’t know but you’ll have an interview anyway,’ and anyway I got the job and I went, and went onto the staff and I didn’t earn as much money, er salary weekly, but there were one or two perks and the best one actually, it was a non-contributory pension scheme, so when I, when I finished with them, I came out with a lump sum and a small pension, which I obviously still get, so that did me a lot of good in many ways
CB: But had that pension started when you first joined?
FB: When I first joined you paid in, you had to pay in for a pension
CB: Oh right
FB: You had to pay in for a pension
CB: No, when you became staff
FB: That was sort of one of the perks really, because
CB: Non-contributory, right. So
FB: So, I had, well I had twenty-seven and a half years all told, seventeen as driving you see and ten and a half with the garage maintenance staff
CB: These eight wheelers were difficult to handle without power steering, were they?
FB: Er?
CB: The eight wheelers were difficult to handle without power steering?
FB: Yes, there was no power steering on the ones I drove. I came off the road and they went over to these Volvo’s [unclear] were the ones we, they were good but you had this big old engine by the side of you in the cab you see, and it went thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, but erm, the later ones, by this time I was already off the road, but they, they did have power steering, the old eight wheelers, I used to, I never, I never, really did enjoy going down into Wales especially in the winter time, er, because they were, you know, they were building sort of up on the side of the mountain, I supposed you call it, I don’t know or whatever, but that used to be a job turning round ‘cos what we used to do, you see, you used to go down and the, they’d take, take anywhere they wanted the bricks and you set up and er, with the, before they started with the erm, forklifts and that, er, it was all unloaded or off loaded, and you had seven thousand bricks on an eight wheeler, and so, what they used to call the stick up, which was one, one row in the centre, down, and then over the side, you build it up, and then three [unclear] we used to call them, and so you used to take off half, and then turn round and take the other half off you see, well, when you were on, on the these, it needed a bit of moving, handling [laughs]
CB: I can imagine. Before fork lifts, how did you load, who loaded the trucks in the first place?
FB: Oh, the, they, the night shifts used to do that, they were mainly, mostly they were nearly all Italians, they used to be up at erm, Aylesbury, and then they, they said that er, where the old royal, when you went up to the hill, where the old royal hospital was, the other side of the road there, that was, and they used to say the Itie, erm, Italians, and someone, when I got out of bed they [unclear] can’t hear you [laughs] I don’t know, but yes, and they had a place over, oh, Bedford way, somewhere I think. [pause] It was well organised, it was a, it was a good company to work, they used to, when I came everywhere, they used to say, you keep your nose clean and you’ll be alright [laughs]
CB: Well, the pay was quite good there, wasn’t it?
FB: Oh yeh well, the first erm, when I left the United Dairies, I think I was getting ten pounds a, yeh, ten pounds a week, and the, and the first pay day I had at Calvert, and that wasn’t a full, that wasn’t a full week, and I had erm, fourteen pounds, and as you, and as you worked your way up from the small to the eight wheelers, and course eight wheelers, that was top, top rate of pay, but erm, the last week that I was actually driving, and of course by this time they started this erm, radius miles, that first, that was the last week that I was actually driving, that I earned one hundred pounds for the week, but erm, some of them used to earn that, it all depends, as I say, whatever journey they gave me I did, I didn’t rush around to try and get another journey here and there
CB: Right
FB: What I did was, whatever time it took me I did, and that was it, you know, I said, as I said to my wife, I’ve had enough of this cowboy driving and that would have been used to it
CB: This is London Brick company?
FB: That was London Brick company, but before as you see, they again, that was a well-run company, a well-run company, but when Sir Ronald Stewart retired as chairman, it seemed as it going downhill, I can’t remember who took over from him, but I don’t, and they started with training on all the systems, they had sort of a foreman and, well, had a foreman and a charge hand but then they, then they used to have a manager, and a manager and so on and so forth and all this, and I remember that they, the London Brick company, they put in a bid for it to buy Ibstock, which is Leicestershire, and that was, that was turned down, and not many months later, Hanson, put in a bid for London Brick, and that was turned down, and it was turned down two or three times and they had, they put in another bid and that was the sort of final bid, and there was a deadline when it had only got to be accepted or rejected for good. Now, I don’t know if it was true or not, but there was this er, rumour that went around that 48 hours before the deadline, that Hanson didn’t have enough shares to buy it, but it said, now I don’t know whether it was true or wasn’t true, or not, but they reckoned that one of the directors sold him his shares that gave him enough to get the, to get the owning of, and from then it went downhill, because, although the man’s not alive now, but he was nothing more than an asset stripper. He closed, he closed er, London Brick erm, and New Longville, closed that, at Calvert where they’d started doing this landfill, erm, he retained the, he retained the ground, but he shut, he sold the, and that was two, Shanks and McKeown
CB: The dump, he sold too?
FB: Yeh
CB: Shanks and McKeown
FB: For landfill, for landfill
CB: For landfill, yeh
FB: Yeh, er, then of course, Calvert went, everything [emphasis] is gone, Stewartby which is the main yard, you used to have a stores, where they used to run from the Calvert to Bletchley, well, Newton Longville to take stores or collect stores and that, to Stewartby, that’s gone, apparently Stewartby from what I’ve heard is that erm, the reason why Stewartby closed mainly, was because, like, I mean, always getting complaints, even when I was working, that erm, depending on the wind direction, they get a lot of these erm, fumes and that, even overseas
CB: Yeh, in Scandinavia they were
FB: Scandinavia, yeh
CB: Yeh. When did you retire?
FB: I erm, [pause] nineteen, wait a minute, nineteen eight [pause] I started in fifty nine, so fifty nine, eighty eight, nineteen eighty, nineteen eighty eight, [emphasis] yeh, nineteen eighty eight and when they, when they started erm, closing down, making people redundant and that, well, I had to go to the labour exchange which was in School Lane in Buckingham at that time, I had to report there and that basically was a, they knew, I mean they knew I was, they knew all about it at the labour exchange, but, you had to go, report there to ensure that you, your stamp was made, you know
CB: Yeh
FB: Until you was sixty five, and I went there and wait my turn and they gave you a form and filled it in and said to come back in a fortnight. Well, I went back in a fortnight and they gave me another form and it said, do you want work, have you sort work, what wage do you want, what hours do you want to work? All this and I came home and I said to my wife, I said, ‘I’m going to find myself a little job because,’ I said, I hadn’t received any money in that time, not from there anyway, and so, as luck happens, there was an advert in, about the only time they ever advertised, a little firm, erm, Greens at Wicking, and they made these sort of these wooden er, light fittings
CB: Oh yeh
FB: Clusters and clock cases and things like that, and they were advertising in the advertiser on that Friday, and er, I phoned up and I said, ‘it seems like you want some labour,’ ‘oh yes, can you come over and have a chat?’ and er, so I arranged to go at two o’clock on that Friday, same Friday afternoon, well I got over there, funny enough, one of the, one of the sons, I didn’t tie it up but, I played cricket for, and I was secretary of the club for Thornborough for eighteen years, and Brian Green, he had just started playing cricket, more or less as I was coming towards the end of my cricket career, so, when I got over there, I saw, I went to the office and saw Sally, as it turned out, and she said, ‘oh, I’ll go and find,’ and she found Michael, well, Michael and Tony they were twins, and they were identical twins, but Tony he didn’t, he didn’t work there, he used to go over occasionally, he’d got his own business or something, anyway I went there and he took me into the, into the factory and erm, and they’d got these machines, you know, for cutting up wood and all the rest of it, and I wasn’t very, I wasn’t very impressed with it, not really, and Michael said to me, ‘let’s go over in the office then,’ and over in the office he said, ‘what do you think?’ and I said, ‘no, I don’t think that’s for me, thank you,’ he said, ‘we’ve got a little seven hundred weight van,’ and he said, ‘ we’re looking for someone, we keep getting these youngsters that come in to drive and we can’t trust them, they don’t know whether they’re coming or going, erm, would you consider that?’ and I said, ‘well, I don’t know.’ Anyway, I took it on and they’d got these outworkers, so I used to take stuff out and deliver it and the following day, used to pick it up and take some more out and that kind of thing, and then I used to have to deliver when they sold stuff, I used to, I used to go down to, well I used to go down in Essex quite a few times, Yorkshire, Birmingham, I used to go there Birmingham quite regularly and get stuff, and take it and so it all worked out very well and I, and I got to, by this time, I had my, I was due to have my holidays and I was seventy, and er, now Laura Ashley was one of their main customers and they were also one of the their best, because they were always sure of getting their cheque monthly, where as some of the others, they had to wait for the money, you see, anyway, [laughs] so I went on holiday, and Michael phoned me up on the Sunday that I was due to start back to work on the Monday, and he said, ‘Sid, we’re short of work,’ it was sort of a [unclear] seasonal sort of thing, now I’d been working flat out from about September right round to the May, June time, and then it used to slack off again, and then it used to build up again, in sort of like, Christmas trade they used to call it, so anyway I was due to start back on the Monday, Michael phoned me up on the Sunday afternoon, he said, ‘Sid, we’re short of work,’ he said, ‘we haven’t got much for you,’ but, he said, ‘we’ll give you a ring when we get, you know, when we have got some work,’ and so I thought, that’s a good opportunity to go, quite a lot of work I wanted to get done around here, and I’d got the allotment and all, and all the rest of it, and so I said to Bet, ‘I think, er, I think that, I’ll call it a day,’ so I wrote to them and said that I’d thought I’d put it in writing, and I wrote and said that I’d decided that I’d retire, I was seventy and thanked them for, you know, the work and all the rest of it, and two or three days later, Brian, Brian rang and he said, ‘you sure you’re not going to come back?’ and I said, ‘yes, I’ve decided to pack up,’ he said, ‘we’ve got plenty of work for you now , we’re expecting you back,’ but I didn’t go back
CB: You’d had enough
FB: I’d had enough, I was seventy
CB: Yeh
FB: And I thought, well that’s it
CB: How long have you lived here?
FB: Since the bungalow was built in nineteen seventy-eight
CB: Oh, have you really, yeh
FB: It’s a, these six bungalows, three either side and they actually they are council, er, let for senior citizens or old age pensioners, whatever you call it, and we were living in a four bedroomed house, number twelve up the road, and by this time, Dad had died, my mother and father in law had died, Geoff had, Geoff had gone to Imperial College, London, in the university, and Jill, she was going to Loughborough, and there was us two living in a four bedroomed house, so I wrote to the council and I said, would it be possible to, possible to rehouse us in a smaller, either a two bedroom or possibly a three bedroom house, and what I got back was a letter saying that they weren’t selling bungalows and they weren’t selling four bedroom houses, well [laughs] I didn’t want either, but anyway, they started building these bungalows and my pal who was on the council, he said, ‘I know you want to move, why don’t you put in for one of these bungalows because they said, five of them have gone, but there’s six and they’re supposed to be for local people you see,’ he said, ‘five of them have gone, but there’s one that’s still open, why don’t you apply for it?’ and I did and originally they said I wasn’t old enough, but in the end they did sell it, er, did let it to us, and when the right to buy came, I applied to buy it
CB: Because you’d got the continuity
FB: So, we bought it and that’s it
CB: Yes, that’s good
EB: You alright?
CB: We’re having a rest now, thank you
[interview paused]
FB: The most memorable time?
CB: Your most memorable time, memorable time, in the RAF would you say?
FB: [pause] [laughs] Well, I don’t know [pause] I should possibly think was when that aircrew completed their thirty ops, because that was, when I first got on 115 Squadron, if they managed to do seven, they were doing very well, so I think possibly that would be one of the stand out things that, I mean that. I can’t remember anybody else, not while I was there
CB: So, you were looking after two aircraft, one did thirty but you had a series of others, as the other aircraft
FB: Well, yeh, because, in actual fact, if you [background noise] [pause] that would, that was D-Dog, that was one of the, that was the one that Malcolm Buckingham and I worked on
CB: Yeh, that
FB: And that’s the one that did, the crew did their thirty ops on
CB: Yes
FB: Er, and that went on as I say, to do hundred and five, but er, by the time we left, it had done, I think it was sixty ops, and the rest of them of course, it was done after we left
CB: ‘Cos you got another crew, after thirty?
FB: Yeh
CB: After thirty, thank you, brilliant
FB: This one, that’s up there, that
CB: Your pictures on the wall
FN: That’s, that’s C-Charlie
CB: Yes
FB: C-Charlie, er and they were the two planes, you know, on the two pans as I was explaining. I don’t know how many operations that done, but that down there, what was it? Five, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, that done thirty, by that time [pause] [background noise]
CB: [inaudible]
EB: 1947
CB: Now, in the war, when you were in the RAF, did you ever have any serious illness and what was it?
FB: I had, I had pneumonia while I was in, at Witchford, I spent er, what did I, a few weeks in Ely, Ely hospital, and I was excused oversea duties for six months, ‘cos I didn’t go overseas anyway, but I was, and the other thing was that, yes, on January the 25th 1947, I had, I’d had an invitation to go to Bet’s sister Margaret’s wedding
EB: Why she wanted to get married
FB: And, I, and I at that point, I was a senior fitter on our flight and I couldn’t get a weekend pass, which as it turned out was just as well, because on the Saturday afternoon, I was sat on top of an old Wellington, doing a plug change [laughs] and I curled up, there was a young national service chap on the other one, I forget his Christian name, but Gaskins he was, a Londoner, and I said to him, we’ll go, we’ll go down into Lincoln and have a little bit of a celebration, [laughs] being as I can’t go over to this wedding. I slid down the main as I, slid down the main frame and as I straightened up, I had this pain across, and the sergeant he said
CB: Across your stomach
FB: Yeh
CB: Yeh
FB: He said, ‘what’s the matter with you?’ I said, ‘I don’t know, I’ve got the cramp or something, I think?’ he said, ‘go on in the hut and stay there until we knock off and go down to tea,’ which is what I did do, and I said to old erm, Gaskins, I gave him my mug and I said, ‘get me a mug of tea, I’m going to get into bed,’ so I went to my hut and lay, and got into bed and he bought me this mug of tea, and I hadn’t got it down many minutes before I felt sick, and I shot out of there and ran into the ablutions and I heaved up, and I kept on, and went back into there every now and again, and kept repeating, repeating all the time, and he says, ‘well we shan’t be going down for a drink tonight, I’ll go across the sick bay and get the orderly to come and see you,’ and he did do, and the orderly said, ‘oh I’d better get the MO,’ he [laughs] tannoyed for the medical officer and they took me over to the sick bay, and he said, ‘oh you’ve got appendicitis,’ so they took me off to [unclear] hospital, and it was snowing, it started snowing you see, it started snowing , anyway, and I got to [unclear] anyway they operated on me and I’ve got an awful scar here, where I had a stitch abscess, and they sent me home er, on, I had a fortnights sick leave but I had to get into Buckingham every, every day to have this dressing changed, that was a bit of a problem, but er, but also, [laughs] when I was discharged to come home, I got down to Bletchley, station, railway station you see, and the old porter he said, ‘no trains to Buckingham until tomorrow morning,’ I said, ‘I know, I know that,’ I said, I’m going to,’ ‘well,’ he said, I don’t know whether you’ll have any luck because,’ he says, ‘we’ve heard that the road is blocked, somewhere along that road,’ and I said, ‘well, the army,’ of course there’s Bletchley Park, that we didn’t know anything about, but there was Bletchley Park, well, they were running from there to Whaddon and also to Lenborough
CB: What, the army trucks?
FB: Yeh, well, with the signals, you see, you know, and they would always stop and pick you up if you wanted it, you know, wanted a lift, and there was just one went past me, and that was before I got anywhere near to the Whaddon turn, and he went straight past me, and I never saw anything else, [background noise] and I walked and from Bletchley, what is it, to Thornborough, it’s about eight miles, I think it is about eight miles, something like that, but when I got round to Singleborough turn, the straight bit there, I could see this shape in the road and it turned out, it was one of the Coop tankers in there, and of course the, where Bet lived at Greatmore it, you needn’t open the gate, you walked straight over ‘cos it was about five foot deep, you see, it was, anyway I got back in, I got back home, I think it was about two or three o’clock in the morning, something like that, and rattled the door and my Dad came [laughs] ‘cor, he said, what’s happened to you?’ I said, ‘well, I’ve walked from Bletchley,’ and so, got into bed, and as I say, every day I had to go into, to have this dressing changed
EB: He walked four miles
CB: Can’t have done him any good to do that?
EB: No
CB: Because this, 1947 was one of the worst winters
FB: It was
CB: In living memory, wasn’t it?
EB: [inaudible]
FB: Well, there was still snow under the hedges in May
CB: Was it, in Rutland we couldn’t get out of the village for seven days
EB: Oh gosh
CB: Amazing
EB: Where was that?
CB: That was in Empingham
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Sidney Bunce
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-11-08
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Sound
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ABunceFSG161108
PBunceFSG1609
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Sidney Bunce grew up in Buckinghamshire and worked in a butchers and a dairy. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force aged 18 and trained as a flight mechanic engineer. He served with 115 Squadron at RAF Witchford and at RAF Wratting Common with 195 Squadron. He talks about his daily life as a mechanic until his demobilisation in 1947. After the war he drove for United Dairies and the London Brick company.
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Cathie Hewitt
Language
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eng
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
England--Buckinghamshire
England--Cambridgeshire
Temporal Coverage
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1943
1944
Format
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02:01:44 audio recording
115 Squadron
195 Squadron
demobilisation
fitter engine
flight mechanic
ground crew
ground personnel
medical officer
military living conditions
military service conditions
Navy, Army and Air Force Institute
RAF Witchford
RAF Wratting Common
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/262/3410/AGouldAG160708.2.mp3
73437c87dfac06a7e6749cfe5ed84141
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gould, Allen
Allen G Gould
Allen Gould
A G Gould
A Gould
Description
An account of the resource
Twenty-seven items. Concerns Allen Geoffrey Gould (b. 1923, 1605203 Royal Air Force). He completed a tour of operations as a flight engineer with 620 Squadron and the Special Operations Executive. Collection consists of an oral history interview, his log book, flight engineer course notebooks, pilot's and engineers handling notes, mention in London Gazette, official documents and photographs.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Allen Geoffrey Gould and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-07-08
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Gould, AG
Requires
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Sgt. Allen G. Gould – 1605203, was born in 1923, after leaving school in Bournemouth at 13, he worked for the Danish Bacon Company until being called up in 1943. Choosing to join the RAF, initially wanting to be a Navigator, he ended up as a Flight Engineer, flying in the Short Stirling Mk. I, II, III and IV variants. Training at RAF St. Alban, then the Heavy Conversion Unit. Allen joined No. 620 Squadron, flying from various bases, RAF Chedburgh, RAF Leicester East and then RAF Fairford. The roles for this squadron were not just bombing missions but Minelaying, Supply drops, Glider Towing and Paratrooper drops. He took part in D-Day, dropping paratroopers from the 6th Airborne Division over Caen, France on the night of 5th June 1944, returning on the 6th towing a glider of heavy equipment. He was also a part of Market Garden, towing a glider on 17th September 1944 and returning on the 19th and 21st on supply drops. There were also numerous drops on behalf of Special Operations Executive (SOE) as well as Special Air Service (SAS) dropping supplies and paratroopers.
Andrew St.Denis
Allen Gould was born on 16 June 1923 in Bournemouth. He left school at fourteen and worked for the Danish Bacon company until he was called up. His father having spent four years in the trenches, in WW1, advised him against joining the Army, so he volunteered for the Royal Air Force.
He joined the RAF on in October 1942 and following basic training he attended the first-ever direct entry, Flight Engineers’ Course at RAF St Athan.
On completion of flight engineering training, he joined up with his crew on 1657 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Stradishall, then moved with them onto 620 Squadron at RAF Chedburgh and later RAF Leicester East.
The squadron later relocated to RAF Fairford where they trained to tow gliders. He was billeted with 12 others in a Nissan hut, conveniently close to a trout stream. They often caught trout, away from the watchful eye of the bailiff and cooked them in a tin on the large coke stove that heated the hut. The illicit bounty was a most welcome supplement to the barely adequate daily rations they received.
Direct out of training with no aircraft experience he had to earn the trust of his crew who up until then had only come across experienced flight engineers. On only his second operational trip and flying with an inexperienced crew, they arrived late over Ludwigshafen, where they found themselves alone and under concentrated anti-aircraft fire. The aircraft was being peppered and was full of holes while the pilot was executing extreme manoeuvres trying to avoid further damage. A fuel tank was hit and Allen had to work hard to ensure the engines received sufficient fuel to keep running. At the same time he had to make sure there would be enough fuel remaining to get back to the south coast of England for an emergency landing. As the aircraft approached the runway, the airfield lights went out and the pilot announced he was going to do another circuit. Allen told him, bluntly, he couldn’t as he didn’t have enough fuel, so the pilot made a steep turn and conducted a blind landing with no fuel to spare. Allen bonded well with his crew and in their free time they would often all go out to the pub together.
Throughout his tour his squadron undertook a variety of roles, much of was it in support of the Special Operations Executive personnel, operating covertly in occupied Europe. They also trained to tow gliders and dropped parachuting troops on D Day.
Allen completed 32 operations as a flight engineer with 620 Squadron and he totalled over 460 flying hours on Stirlings. PGouldAG1610.2.jpg (1600×2310) (lincoln.ac.uk)
For his services to 620 Squadron, he was ‘Mentioned in Despatches’ for distinguished service. MGouldAG1605203-160708-13.2.pdf (lincoln.ac.uk)
Post war, he married his wife, Norma, who was training as a mechanic at St Athan when he met her. PGouldAG1601.2.jpg (1600×2412) (lincoln.ac.uk)
Allen was discharged in October 1946 having attained the rank of Warrant Officer. PGouldAG1604.1.jpg (1600×2330) (lincoln.ac.uk)
He returned to the Danish Bacon company where he worked for another 40 years.
Chriss Cann
October 1942: Volunteered for the RAF
January 1943 - July 1943: RAF St Athan, Flight Engineer Training
July 1943 - September 1943: RAF Stradishall, 1657 HCU, flying Stirling aircraft
September 1943 - December 1943: RAF Chedburgh, 620 Squadron, flying Stirling aircraft
January 1944 - March 1944: RAF Leicester East, 620 Squadron, flying Stirling aircraft
March 1944 - April 1945: RAF Fairford,620 Squadron, flying Stirling aircraft
8 October 1946: Released from service having attained the rank of Warrant Officer
Chris Cann
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the eighth of July two thousand and sixteen, we’re in Oxford talking to Allen Gould about his experiences flying Stirling’s in the war. Allen what are your first recollections of life with the family?
AG: Well I went to school at Winton and Moordown council boys school in Bournemouth, erm, left when I was fourteen, which irritated my father, ‘cos he hadn’t got the money to pay for me to go to grammar school, there were only two seats allocated to our school, after the erm, eleven plus, and, erm, everybody there failed except for the doctor’s son and the councillor’s son, who both got a grammar school seat, which I would have loved but there you are, because in those days that was the only way you could get to university, grammar school first and then go, [pause] and I left school at fourteen, got a job with the Danish Bacon Company, [pause] a shit house firm right from the start, I was there for, getting on for forty years, after the war I came back there and erm, and then I, my nerves got back to normal when I was, after I had been away from the air force for, ten or twelve years, and erm, I got another job, which I was quite pleased about but they wouldn’t let me take my pension with me which my new firm offered to do and treat it as though I had been there all that time, but they didn’t, they made me take the whole thing out, not the part they paid in, all I’d been paid in, they made me take that out as part of my last week’s wages there, ‘cos the income tax that week would frighten anybody, [laughs] and that was it, and I was there until I got called up, with erm, three other fellas, I was the only one that came back without any damage, two of ‘em got killed, one of them finished up with one leg about three inches shorter than the other, I was the only one that was alright when I came back, and then went on the road and did commercial travelling, up and down the country, and I did that with a new firm I joined, Patrick Grainger and Hutleys, nice firm based in Fordingbridge, [pause] so I was up at half past five in the morning going to work, driving up to Fordingbridge, and picking up one of my drivers along the way [pause]
CB: Ok, so, you started with the bacon company, how did you come to join the RAF?
AG: Well, I rather fancied it you know I mean when I was called up my father had done four years in the trenches and he said ‘no way are you going into the army, my cocker’ so I said ‘ Oh alright I’ll take your advice on that’, so I put my name down for the RAF, and when it came to a choice between this and that and I thought flying, oh wow, let’s have a go at that.So, er, I, finished up in Blackpool getting my uniform and one thing and another, and then erm, posted from there down to St Athans, on this first directory, first direct [emphasis], flight engineers course, because they were losing so many flight engineers who’d taken a long time, a really [emphasis] long time in training and they couldn’t afford it any longer. So we were pushed through, erm, six months and I was out on the squadron, at erm, Stradishall and then in the finish we wound up at Fairford and we were there for years, [pause] the only other aerodrome we flew from during that time was from Hurn, just outside Bournemouth
CB: So, you did your training at St Athan, what was the training that you did there?
AG: Direct entry flight engineer
CB: Yeh, but, what was involved in that?
AG: Well, really all it boiled down to was, looking at pictures of engines and exploring the airframes, and one thing and another, so when we were flying I was always on the move, bouncing up and down on me toes for up to twelve hours if we went down as far as Switzerland, ‘cos flight engineers don’t have a seat [pause]
CB: Ok, so on the training though there’s a lot of aspects of the aircraft?
AG: Yeh
CB: So, what aspects were you dealing with, you talked briefly about airframe, but what else were they focussing on?
AG: Oh, erm, the engines and erm, more particularly the amount of fuel they would be using and heights we were going to, how it objected on the fuel take up and er all that sort of thing
CB: So, on an aircraft the size of the four engine planes, how many tanks would there be on those planes?
AG: Err
CB: Fuel tanks
AG: Numbers two and four, and one, two and three in each wing
CB: So, what was the flight engineer’s job in that?
AG: Well. I had to control that, when the pilot was fiddling about with the controls, I was watching the dials and making sure that everything was as it should be, erm, we only got into real trouble on one flight, erm, when we were still sort of, an inexperienced crew, we had to, erm, join bombers going to Mannheim Ludwigshafen and we were bombing the Ludwigshafen, and being a sprog crew, ‘cos we got there ten minutes late all the others had gone through, so we were going over on our own and we were really getting bashed. Our pilot was doing mad dives and turns to get us out of it, the only thing that we lost was the number four tank in the starboard wing, so I had to run all the engines off that to make sure we used everything we possibly could, and, we did, just save enough to get back to an emergency aerodrome on the south coast, whose name I’ve forgotten to be honest, and we were just going into land and they turned all the lights off, and the pilot said ‘I’ll do another circuit’ and I said ‘ you can’t, you haven’t got enough fuel’, I’m afraid that became a funny word to them because every time he saw me in future he said ‘We can’t, we haven’t got enough fuel!’. So, he did a sweep to the left up on one wing and came straight back in and landed, lights or no lights, he was going in, and we did, I said to the bomb aimer, who was also the second pilot afterwards ‘how did you, er, cope with that ‘? He said ‘well’, he said ‘you know when the undercarriage is down you get a green light’ he said, ‘and if it’s not you get a red light’ So, he said ‘we were as bouncing down the runway and it was going red, green, red, green, red, green, red, green’, [laughs] I said, ‘Oh, thanks very much, cheered me up no end that has’
CB: But, it stayed down?
AG: Oh, yeh, we got down no bother, we just got enough. The pilot came out the following morning and said ‘Look, if we’ve got any fuel left, I’m gonna kick your arse all round this aerodrome’, so I dipped every tank, he and I walked across the wings and I dipped every tank, and it was just enough left in one of them to damp the end of the dipstick, so he shut up after that [laughs]
CB: So, it was reassuring that the gauges were accurate
AG: Well, I wondered if that was what finished up with that MiD of mine, ‘cos they must have made a note of it because we had to abandon the aircraft there and get a lift back to our aerodrome at Fairford, we just left them on this, at this other aerodrome, whose name I don’t remember unfortunately
CB: So, MiD is, mentioned in despatches?
AG: Yeh
CB: Right
AG: Yeh, so somebody must have made a note of it, I expect my pilot went back and said, ‘he was right you know, we didn’t have any fuel’ [laughs]
CB: Saved the crew, effectively
AG: Well, there you are, yeh, so, perhaps that’s what I got it for
CB: So, the reason I asked you about the training is, because clearly, it was focussed on, what in those days was state of the art aircraft, the first of the heavy bombers was the Stirling,
AG: Hmm
CB: but it was different from the other bombers, in that it had electrical circuits for so many things where others would use hydraulics
AG: Oh, yes
CB: In your basic training, what emphasis, was there, on hydraulics and electrics, in the training at St Athan?
AG: Well, skimming over it, as it was a direct entry course they didn’t waste a lot of time, I’ll tell you
CB: How did you come to do flight engineering, because you, had you, when you were working for the bacon company, had you been involved in technical matters then?
AG: No, no
CB: So, how did you come to be selected to train as a flight engineer?
AG: Well, I think they wanted when we were in Blackpool, they wanted flight engineers more than anything because they’d lost so many, and erm, I was automatically put onto that, you know, I’d erm, I think I put my name down to start with for navigation, but never got to that [pause]
CB: So, you finished the training after six months and how did you feel at the end of the training about your knowledge of engineering and aircraft?
AG: Well, I thought at the time that it wasn’t up to scratch, really, I mean, when I thought of the work that previous flight engineers had, had to do, different courses and out on a squadron for six months and then come back and do another course, I mean what we, what they went through to get us out was quick and easy, you know, and that sort of thing.
CB: So, the process for crewing up aircrew, was that at the operational training unit the crew got together, the flight engineer didn’t join until the heavy conversion unit?
AG: That’s right
CB: So, what was the crew like when you, how did you come to join an existing crew that had been on Wellingtons?
AG: Well, they were a bit iffy about having a direct entry flight engineer
CB: Were they?
AG: Because they were told I was one, and they’d never heard of anybody like that, you know, and they thought they were going to get somebody who had been out working on aircraft, on the flights, on the aerodromes, but they didn’t they got me and er, until this second trip, when I got away with this fuel business, after that we were, they relied on me, really, and er, were extremely friendly
CB: As a crew, what were the ranks, was the pilot always commissioned or was he only
AG: Oh yes
CB: Commissioned later?
AG: Yes, the pilot and the navigator and the rear gunner were all commissioned, [pause] and the wireless operator was a sergeant like me when we started flying together [pause]
CB: Ok, so you joined at the heavy conversion unit, where was that?
AG: Stradishall
CB: Right
AG: I do remember that name
CB: And how long where you at Stradishall?
AG: Oh, only about a week [pause], then we went up to Fairford and started ops
CB: Right
AG: Our first one was erm, minelaying, off erm, [unclear] Byrum [?] I think I got the name right, other side of Denmark, going down towards where the Germans were
CB: The far side of Denmark?
AG: Yeh
CB: The Swedish side?
AG: That’s right, yeh, yes, I remember coming back from there, we were flying along and you could see all the Swedish coast, all lit up, the pears, the piers and everything, all the lights
CB: Didn’t do you any good from a silhouette point of view, did it?
AG: No, it didn’t, no that’s true, yes, the only other place, that er, we were worried about the silhouette was erm, we did erm, three or four trips to Norway, supplying free Norwegians, who were up in the mountains, we had to look out for them and then drop stuff to them, funny enough, I see in the paper, that it was only last year, that they found some of the stuff that had been dropped for these people, that they never found and it was still in the snow, but when we were flying over there, we only went up there on a really full moon at night, and we could see our shadow going across the snow, well if anybody had been up, all they had to do was to look at the, moon and our shadow and they knew exactly where we were, and of course the only thing we had to worry about there, was the right up in the north of Denmark was this big German fighter unit, they used to cover the North Sea and out in the Atlantic and all over
CB: So, you were supplying the SOE, the Special Operations Executive in that case, weren’t you?
AG: Yeh, that’s right
CB: So, are you saying that the squadron, 620, had a variety of roles?
AG: Oh yes, we erm, D Day, we dropped parachutes on Caen bridge, and then we had to go back and come over again in the afternoon with gliders, with heavier equipment, down in the same place
CB: So, on gliders, where did you train for towing gliders?
AG: At Fairford
CB: What was the main activity at Fairford then?
AG: Well, the main activity there, was putting us out on raids or supply trips, which went on for years
CB: Rather than bombing you were supplying agents
AG: Yeh, oh yeh
CB: Right
AG: We did bombing raids as well, because I remember we, that, our troops on the ground had got this, surrounded this wood which had got the Germans in it, and we had to go over and bomb these German troops in this wood, and we had a plane going over there about every ten minutes so they wouldn’t get any rest or peace and we just had to keep on bombing this wood
CB: And the effect?
AG: Well, it seemed to work alright, but erm, [pause]
CB: And what about the bombing then, other bombing, what other tasks were there? So, you talked about mine laying
AG: Yeh
CB: Well, let’s just cover minelaying for a bit, mine laying was at a low level wasn’t it
AG: Oh yes
CB: What height were you doing the mine laying?
AG: About five hundred feet
CB: Right
AG: And erm, after that I think, we were mainly doing supplies, down over France, to anyone who needed it, and we did take some paratroops over there, Occasionally we had some odd characters, there was a bloke arrived there, put his parachute on, and he’d got a very smart suit on and a bowler hat, and he was, we were dropping him outside some village, where he had to get in by himself after he landed, and pretend to be the mayor, which is why he was so smartly dressed [laughs]
CB: This was after D Day, was it?
AG: Oh, yeh, yeh, well after, yeh, and then we were sent down, a little while after that, we were sent down to Italy, ‘cos I think they had some idea of us towing gliders from Italy with heavy equipment across to Greece, but it didn’t come to anything, we been there about four or five days, and the whole thing in Greece, came to a grinding halt, so they just said, no we don’t need you and we came back to England. That picture there, is erm, when we were in Italy, Pomigliano, I think it’s a little aerodrome, not far outside Naples, [pause]. Not that we were looking forward to trying to get off there with gliders, because they’ve got these great big heavy power lines right across the end of the runways, we couldn’t see how the hell we were going to get high enough to get the glider over those
CB: Well, it’s the wrong side
AG: Fortunately, we never had to try
CB: Right, it was the
AG: We were a bit worried about that [laughs]
CB: It was the wrong side of Italy to go to Greece anyway wasn’t it?
AG: Oh yeh, yeh
CB: But, the gliders were on this airfield as, well, were they?
AG: Well, no, we didn’t get as far as that
CB: Right
AG: They would have been coming from somewhere else
CB: Yeh
AG: But they stopped it in the end, said it wasn’t necessary, Greece was in a hell of a mess at the time anyway and our troops were in there, so they didn’t need the gliders, so, go on home, so we went, back to England
CB: What was the balance between supplying, agents, in activity and doing bombing raids?
AG: Very few bombing raids, it was mainly, either supply, or erm, taking people over there. I remember we had to go to an American aerodrome and pick up some American paratroops, I was very sorry for them, ‘cos the sergeant in charge said ‘have you got a gun’ I said ‘well yes, of course I’ve got my usual forty five issue’. He said ‘right, well if the first bloke refuses to jump shoot him, I shall be pushing from the back and you go out anyway’ and I thought well that’s a fine way, and I didn’t even unholster the gun ‘cos I had no intention of doing it, but erm, I’m afraid with some of these Americans I was very sorry for them, they were shit scared and badly trained, still
CB: In what way were they badly trained?
AG: Well, they’d never done a jump before, this is why he thought the bloke in front might stick his toes in and refuse to jump out, ‘cos in the Stirling, it was a big hole in the floor and you went out that way, you didn’t go out the door, ‘cos there was always the danger of being caught by the wing, by the tail, plane as it came by, so, the Stirling had a hole in the floor, and erm, these people hadn’t done any jumps at all
CB: How extraordinary
AG: Yeh well this is it, you know, they got in and clipped on
CB: They had a static line to clip on?
AG: Yeh, that’s right, yeh
CB: But, they all went?
AG: Oh yes, they all went out, no bother at all, but erm, I won’t going to shoot anybody anyway, I was very sorry for them
CB: Now, on the supply raids and when your’e dropping, trips, when your’e dropping material and people, this is largely low level is it?
AG: Oh yeh, yeh,
CB: What sort of height?
AC: Particularly with people because you had to drop them from a reasonable low height, it’s no good chucking a parachute out you know, at eighteen thousand or something like that, and hoping he’s gonna get down to where he should, because if there’s any wind blowing he would land miles away
CB: So, what height were they being dropped?
AG: Oh, between five and six hundred most of them I think, as far as I remember
CB: And most of this is in the dark, is it?
AG: Oh yes, yeh of course
CB: How did the navigator find the target for this, because you’re on your own when you do this?
AG: Oh yes, yes, oh yeh. Well, he was told, you know, where to go and miles from wherever, and er, we just had to find it, or he did
CB: Were there electronic devices used to help?
AG: No, no, we didn’t have anything like that, we had an, erm, sort of a semi radar thing, in the plane which was the start of that sort of thing, but erm
CB: Was that H2S or different?
AG: I have no idea
CB: Or other words, a mapping radar, was it?
AG: Yeh, well, it showed up, you know, things like mountains and things like that, but that was all, I mean it was fairly beginning things
CB: So, when did you start, flying with 620 Squadron?
AG: Erm, [pause], oh dear, [pause], well, it was after I’d done my six months at St Athans, so that would be
CB: So, when did you go to St Athan?
AG: Erm, so that would be erm, [pause] when I were called up, I went to Blackpool, so it would be, erm, [pause] beginning of forty-three, I suppose
CB: For six months?
AG: Yeh [pause], or was it forty-two for six months? and then on, [pause] difficult to remember because
CB: So, when in forty-one did you join, what time of year?
AG: Oh, in the September
CB: Ok, so then you went to Blackpool?
AG: When I was called up, yeh
CB: Yeh
AG: I developed scarlet fever, the week I was called up, so the doctor said I’d got to stay there, I was in bed, with a blanket over the door, which had been sprayed by my mother, to keep the germs in the bedroom [laughs] and then so when I got to Blackpool, I had to report sick with scarlet fever, and the bloke said, ‘how long have you had it’? and I told him, and he said ‘no, that’s alright, you can carry on’ [laughs.] Yes, I remember that, I was sitting there and the nurse came round and said ‘why have you come’ and I said ‘’cos, I’ve got scarlet fever’ and I could see these two blokes, either side, go like that [laughter]
CB: Amazing, [pause] so, how long were you at Blackpool?
AG: Erm, oh, must have been about, I was there quite a long time
CB: You did your square bashing there, did you?
AG: Yeh, must have been, what, three months, oh, we were not only square bashing, I was, out digging in some place where they were putting in, erm, assault courses for people to practice on, we were out digging that, while I was there, they didn’t waste us.
CB: So, that would take you to Christmas?
AG: Yeh
CB: So, you went from Blackpool to St Athan?
AG: Yeh, well, I couldn’t tell you when
CB: So, that sounds like the beginning of forty-two, we’ll check it out anyway
AG: Yeh
CB: And you were there six months, so you would have joined the squadron
AG: Yeh
CB: When?
AG: I went from there, straight to Stradishall and joined up with the crew and then we finished up in Fairford
CB: But, you were involved in operations in D Day?
AG: Oh yeh, yeh
CB: How many tours did you do?
AG: Only the one
CB: Right, and how many ops did you do?
AG: Oh, thirty-two, something like that, just over thirty, a fraction over thirty
CB: I’m going to stop just for a mo.
AG: Yeh, right
CB: We are just going to talk a little bit about the crew, we’ve talked earlier about, when Allen sorted out the fuel distribution arrangements and how they were short of fuel, and that got him accepted, but how did the crew gel?
AG: Oh, very well, erm, our pilot had a car, I don’t know where he got it from, but he had a car at Fairford, and erm, we used to go out at night, to one of the local pubs, all of us
CB: All seven of you?
AG: Yeh, oh yeh, I think we meshed very well actually
CB: Right, and how well equipped were the pubs for supplying thirsty air crew?
AG: Oh, very well, particularly the one we used to go to which had a lot of really nice-looking girls serving there, which always started my pilot, [laughs] away [laughs] if he got half the chance [laughs]
CB: Yeh, and did they ever run out of beer?
AG: No, never, never, yeh
CB: So, part of the crew was commissioned, and part of it was NCO?
AG: Yeh
CB: So, what were your quarters like as an NCO?
AG: What were my what?
CB: Quarters, where were you?
AG: Oh, I was just in a billet with, twelve other people
CB: Right, so, what was the billet, a Nissan hut?
AG: Yeh, a Nissan hut, yeh, and at Fairford, we were right down the bottom of the hill, by the stream, where we could go fishing for trout, very naughty, and we knew what time the bailiff used to come round, and make sure there was nobody fishing in this trout stream, and so, we always used to make sure we weren’t down there when he came by [laughs]. No, I used to like trout, done on a coke stove
CB: Is that the coke stove in the Nissan hut?
AG: Yeh, yeh, that’s all the heat we had in there, was just one of these big coke stoves
CB: So, what was the recipe then, how did you deal with it, so you got the trout?
AG: Oh, put it in a tin on the top, after gutting it and chopping it, putting it on, and just standing it on the stove until it was cooked, knowing what the food was like, you know, we was always trying to add to it [laughs], one way or the other
CB: Were you normally hungry or was the normal amount adequate?
AG: Well, it was for me but I don’t think it was for some of them, but er, no, I always, I always, seemed to get on fairly well. The only funny thing that happened down at that Nissan hut that we were in, eh, one of the blokes had gone into town on his bicycle, when he came back, he’d thrown the bicycle over the fence, not realising, that he’d thrown it into a sewerage pit, so he climbed up and jumped in after it he turned up at the back door of the hut covered in green muck, and we threw things at him until he went away and got in the shower with all his clothes on [laughs] we weren’t going to let him in [laughs] Yeh, I can see that bloke standing there now
CB: How many uniforms did you have? He had to dry it out, first did he?
AG: Er, well, you really had one and a spare which you kept, you kept one, you know, for parades and one thing and another, and a spare, and of course when I became a warrant officer, then I was never short of clothes and it was all extremely smart, and I had more spares than I could cope with
CB: At what stage did you become a warrant officer?
AG: Oh, in my third year, because you went up one rank every year, this is why we had flight lieutenant rear gunner, he’d gone [laughs] gradually up [laughs] anyway
CB: So, you, worked well as a crew?
AG: Oh, yeh, really well
CB: And, erm, how did the food come, if you were flying at night, before you
AG: Well, we had to eat before we went
CB: Right, so what was that
AG: If it was a night flight
CB: Ok, what did you get?
AG: Well, anything that was going, you know, I seem to remember a lot of sausages in those days, I suppose they were easy to come by and easy to make so, they were alright, yeh
CB: Did they keep pigs on the station?
AG: No, not that I ever saw
CB: And, when you landed after an op, what did you get for food?
AG: Eh, well roughly the same thing again, whatever was available, you know, but erm,
CB: Bacon and egg?
AG: Oh yes, yes, we always had that, the only thing that I remember about coming back late one night, before we’d taken off, I’d gone out to the aircraft with a bicycle and had a look round like, as I usually did, and er, when we landed I got on the bike and whizzed off back, and, in the meantime they’d put a barbed wire fence across the bloody path and I rode straight into that and went flying, pitch down, and I got barbed wire cuts all up one arm, and of course, we hadn’t been debriefed or anything, so in between take off and being debriefed, I’d been wounded, I was entitled to a wound stripe, and I thought I shall never have the cheek to wear it, so I didn’t, ‘cos it wasn’t my fault they’d put a barbed wire fence up there
CB: Now, you’ve raised an interesting point there, the wound stripe, how was that allocated and then shown on the uniform?
AG: Well, you had an upside down v, a little red v on the bottom of your left-hand sleeve, I mean I’ve seen
CB: On the wrist?
AG: I saw a bloke once, he’d got fifteen of these all up this arm, so I thought, he must be ruddy unlucky [laughs]
CB: So, this will come as a result of aerial combat of some kind, would it?
AG: Oh yeh, oh yeh
CB: So, how often were you hit and by what?
AG: Well, the only time we were hit, hit badly, was when we were so short of fuel, because they’d absolutely peppered the aircraft, it was full of holes all over, up in, down, and underneath, under the tanks in the wings and everywhere. It was our own fault because we’d arrived ten minutes too late, we blamed the navigator, the rest of the bomber crews had gone on by, so we were flying over Ludwigshafen on our own, we were getting pasted
CB: No fire?
AG: No, fortunately
CB: And er, so that’s flak, so what about fighter attack, how often did you have those?
AG: No, we were lucky, we never had one, ever, [emphasis] although our gunners were ready, but we were lucky to get away with it, particularly when we were doing those Norway trips, ‘cos we’d got no cover there at all, and everything was wide open, you could see our shadow moving across the snow, and this German fighter place up in the north of Denmark, was huge, God knows how many fighters they had there, but we were lucky, we got away with it every time we went to Norway we got away with it without seeing one. The only time we got shot at in Norway, going up the creek to Oslo, and we had to go over Oslo and up into the mountains, to drop this stuff, and in the creek was three islands, one there, one there and one there, and they all had German flak guns on, fortunately, we came in so low that we were leaving a wake up this creek, I looked out and I could see it
CB: On the water?
AG: On the water, and this island was firing at us and hitting the other island, which we thought was quite good [laughs] but when we got to the third one of course, we were just taking a chance, round and round and out quick and after that it was just up over Oslo and into the mountains [pause] interesting, it was only last year that it was in the paper that they found some of this stuff up there that had been dropped, and the people up there never found it
CB: Where they able to find out who had, which aircraft had dropped it?
AG: No, no, they couldn’t find out anything about it at all
CB: So, you said, earlier, that the, Stirling was grossly under-rated, and you thought it was a brilliant aeroplane, what was so special about the Stirling in your perception?
AG: Well, the fact that it was solid metal, you know, it would stand up to practically anything, and only get minor damage, and of course the engines were superb, far better than anything on any of the other aircraft
CB: So, what engines were on the Stirling?
AG: Oh, those Bristol Radials
CB: Hercules
AG: Yeh, I know that we started off with two, two banks of pots and finished up with three, and erm, they were really good, far better than these Merlin engines, ‘cos these would take punishment, the others wouldn’t
CB: Going back to your training, looking at your training manuals, books you filled in, erm, exercise books, when you were training, there, there’s a section on everything but, the significance of the Stirling was it was, it had so much electrics on it, so how well were you prepared at St Athan, for going onto an aircraft that had such a large amount of electrics?
AG: Oh, pretty well, I think I never had any trouble with any of it, the only thing I nearly did one night, was to cook the pigeon, they gave us, in case we came down in the North Sea, and we were sat in a dinghy, there you know, waiting to be rescued, they gave us a pigeon that we could put on out last position and send it off, and I put this pigeon on the floor and I didn’t realise until I got back, that I’d stood it up against this heating pipe that was coming through from one of the engines, I thought the bloody thing will be cooked, but it was perfectly alright, thank goodness [laughs]
CB: Just gone deaf
AG: Well, it must have been warm, which was more than the rest of us were on some of these flights
CB: Where was the warmest part on the aircraft?
AG: At the end of this pipe that was coming through from the inner starboard engine
CB: That was the heater for the fuselage, was it?
AG: Yeh, that’s right, yeh
CB: So, what were the things that were electric, driven electrically, on the Stirling?
AG: Well, practically everything, I mean, I’d got a bank of dials in front of me where I was, which were, erm, you know, gave you an indication of how much fuel was in each tank, ‘cos you had one for each tank, starboard and port, and that was all run by electrics, I mean, if you lost your electrics, you’d got no guides at all, that sort of thing, but we never did, fortunately
CB: And, were any of the flying controls electric?
AG: Ah, the only thing that I knew about, that was my job, was the undercarriage, which was electric, down and up, but, erm, if that had failed I could do that by hand take me about half an hour I should think [laughs] ‘cos it was really hard work, but er, that you could do
CB: And, what about the trimmer? so, in the flying controls, were the trimmers electric?
AG: Erm, yes, but that was done either by the co-pilot, the bomb aimer or the pilot, I never had anything to do with that
CB: You said earlier that you had to stand up all the time, but did you have a seat for take-off and landing?
AG: Well, I had to sit on the parachute
CB: Where?
AG: The type of the parachute was the cushion type, with the two, rings at the back, which you just clicked onto your harness, which was there at the front, you just clicked on, yeh that’s right, on the front, [pause] and as it was that sort of thick, and that big, we used to sit on it
CB: Now, thinking now, about the take-off and landing, as the engineer, to what extent, were you involved in helping with the take-off with the throttles?
AG: Not at all, the pilot did it all and I used to watch the dials and make sure that there was nothing I had to tell him
CB: So, were you sitting next to him at that point, or
AG: No, no I was
CB: You were standing?
AG: No, I was either standing, bouncing up and down on me toes or, sat on the parachute looking at all this, wall of dials in front of me
CB: And erm, with most flight engineer tasks, positions, er, logs had to be taken, so,
AG: Oh yeh
CB: What logging did you do and how often?
AG: Well, you had to do one for every flight
CB: But, during the flight, what did you have to record?
AG: Well, if anything went wrong or, we needed something that wasn’t there or whatever, you had to put it in the log, you know, but erm, I never seemed to have any trouble with that, we were lucky really, we really were lucky
CB: From what you have said, fuel management is a key matter, so, of the tanks, in what sequence did you, use for fuel, you’d have one for take-off and then how did you distribute the fuel?
AG: Well, there was two big tanks, number two and number four, in each wing, and you used those for take-off particularly if you were towing a glider because you used a lot of it, and er, once you were up and on a long, fairly longish flight, because we did, we had to go twelve hours sometimes, which took us nearly down to the Swiss border, to supply, Free French that were in the hills there, in the foothills, and erm, as I said, it was, by the time we got back to base again, we’d been out twelve hours
CB: And erm, in terms of the next range of tanks, how did you switch, in what sequence did you use the fuel?
[background noise]
AG: Well, you used the little ones, number one and number two
CB: Which are on the wing tips?
AG: Number one and number three, out, at the far end, you use those first, on both wings, and you tried to keep them going to the engines, you got [pause] like two engines there, and two engines there and you had to keep them going, from the same tanks, pretty well for the same length of time, so you’d know exactly what type of tank was going to be empty, you didn’t have to look at your dial until it went empty, I mean, you had to do it by time, and er, whatever revs were on the engines
CB: And, setting the revs on the engines, and the pitch of the screws, who dealt, did that?
AG: Oh, that was the pilot, did that
CB: Right
AG: And if you didn’t like what he was doing, you had to tell him and he had to alter it
CB: And to what extent was it necessary to synchronise the engines in flight?
AG: Er, not a lot really, we had an extremely good ground crew and normally we found that they’d adjust, perfectly, [pause] because we really relied on our ground crew a lot and we had four really good blokes
CB: And did they come out with you, in the evenings sometimes or did they?
AG: Oh yeh, yeh, oh yeh, we thought a lot of those fellas, in fact I gave one of them my bike, when I left, when I was posted away from the squadron, erm, I gave him my bicycle, which I was sad about, but, he deserved it
CB: So, you come to the end of your tour, and you did thirty, thirty-two operations, what did you do after that?
AG: Well, we only had one flight after that because the officer’s mess had run out of beer, we had to fly over to Northern Ireland and bring back a load of beer for them [laughs]
CB: Must have been an arduous trip!
AG: Oh yeh, [laughs] because we’d have liked to have gone on over there and done something, really naughty, because at that time the IRA were building bonfires in the shape of arrows, pointing, to where the aerodrome was
CB: Oh, for German bombers?
AG: That’s right, yeh, bastards [emphasis]
CB: And, how long had they been doing that for?
AG: Practically, since the war started
CB: And how were they dealt with?
AG: Well, they should have been bloody shot, but we never got around to it! It’s like that bloke McGuiness, I mean he’s in the Irish government now, he was the one that started that Bloody Sunday, he was the one on top with the rifle, firing at our troops what did they think, that we weren’t going to fire back? I don’t know, that bastard should have been shot, and you can write that down and put my name on it [laughs]
CB: So, the arrows bit is interesting, how long did that go on for?
AG: Oh, quite a long time during the war, [pause] yeh, swines
CB: And, what did the beer taste like when you got it back
AG: Oh, that weren’t for us, that was for the officer’s mess, we weren’t allowed to touch it
CB: Didn’t you sample it to make sure it was ok?
AG: No
CB: So, your last flight was keeping them topped up, then what did you do? So, you’ve left the squadron now
AG: Oh, well, I was erm, posted away then, and er, [pause] and finished up at a place called Burnham Beeches
CB: In Buckinghamshire?
AG: Yeh, and erm
CB: What happened there?
AG: Well, nothing really, I don’t think they knew what to do with us, I mean that was where I learnt how to play tennis, one of the blokes there, he’d been champion of Yorkshire for two or three years, and he gave me one of his racquets, and I’ve still got it, I’d still use it, if I played tennis, which I thought was very nice of him, and er, we went rowing on the river there and all sorts of things. As I said they didn’t know what to do with us, we were just keeping out the way
CB: So, we’re after Arnhem now aren’t we, so
AG: Oh yeh
CB: So, what sort of time are we talking about? In the autumn or are we later?
AG: Oh erm, [pause] now, I think I went there if I remember rightly, I went there in er, January, February somewhere like that, fairly early
CB: Forty-five
AG: At Burnham Beeches and we were erm, we’d taken over this big country house that was there, and erm, they just kept the top floor, to live in, and we had the offices all down below, and er, working in there
CB: Doing what?
AG: Well, I was sat in the office there, and it was a most peculiar effort, if they, had a man posted from Edinburgh to Glasgow, an RAF policeman, he had to come all the way down to us, be booked into my office and booked out again, and given travel warrants and away he went, most peculiar efforts, still there you are, you wondered who was running these things sometimes
CB: And then after, how long did that go on for?
AG: Oh, I think I was there for about erm, three or four months [background noise] and then I was posted to Leicester
CB: Leicester East? The airfield, Leicester East?
AG: Oh no, no, no, no, just somewhere in Leicester, erm, and erm, I was there for about a fortnight or so I think, and then I went back to Burnham Beeches and got discharged, and went to London and picked up my civvies
CB: Then what? So, you’re discharged, demobbed, what did you do then?
AG: Well, I went home and had a week off and then I went back to work for the Danish Bacon company, shit house firm
[background laughter]
CB: Would you like to explain why they were like that? What was it that was so upsetting about the Danish Bacon
AG: Well, because I’d
CB: Company
AG: Been here for nearly forty years, until I got another job and I wanted to take my pension and money, put it into this new firm and they were going to treat it as though I’d been there all the time, so I’d have had a really good pension when I did eventually retire, but they wouldn’t do it, they made me take all the money out and it was only what I’d paid in, nothing of theirs, and I had to take it out as my last week’s wages and the income tax was unbelievable, not a nice firm, fortunately, they went out of business after that
CB: Right, so
AG: It went broke
CB: When did you leave them?
AG: Ah, [pause] I’m scratching for the year, [pause] I can’t remember to be honest
CB: So, you left the RAF in forty-five
AG: Yeh
CB: How long did you stay with the Danish Bacon people?
AG: Er, oh another [pause] eight or nine years
CB: Then what?
AG: Then I got this offer of this new job
CB: At?
AG: Patrick Grainger and Hutley’s, at Fordingbridge
CB: What were you doing there?
AG: I was assistant manager and I was also travelling round, seeing some of their customers, and building up trade of course
CB: Ok, we’ll just have a break there, thank you
CB: So, you kept staying, kept with Patrick Grainger, who’d then been taken over by Danish Bacon until you retired after forty years. We are now going back to flying, so when you were flying Allen, as the engineer, you had to log various things because it was important to see how the plane was performing. What were you logging?
AG: Well, if you have a look at this, its erm, oil pressure, oil temperatures and cylinder temperatures
CB: Right, ok, and how often were you doing that? Did you have to do it at a particular time? Every hour?
AG: Yeh, well, this, if you look at the times down the left-hand side, its roughly about every fifteen minutes, I think
CB: Right
AG: But, I had another line, right the way across
CB: Yeh, so, when you got back, you, the aircraft lands, we didn’t get on to debrief, but, you’re the engineer, when you get out of the aircraft, who’s the first person you speak to, is that the Chiefy?
AG: Erm
CB: Your ground engineer?
AG: No, I wouldn’t see anybody until I got back into the debriefing hut
CB: Ok, so at debriefing, what would you be doing?
AG: Well, I had to hand my log in
CB: Right
AG: And erm,
CB: That you’d been completing in the flight?
AG: That’s right, yeh this one
CB: Yeh, ok, and then what, who was the person that looked at that?
AG: Well, they used to take them all away, and erm, if I remember rightly, it was the chap who was in charge of all the, erm, maintenance and all that stuff, he’d go through it, and any anomalies he’d then probably come, and ask you what happened then and [unclear]
CB: This would be the station engineering officer?
AG: Yeh
CB: Who would be dealing with all of that or one of his erm, people?
AG: Well, it was a bloke in charge of erm, all the ground crews
CB: Yeh, yeh
AG: He’d want to see that
CB: Now, would you then join the rest of the crew for the crew debriefing, what would happen?
AG: Oh yeh, yeh, we would all go and sit down together
CB: Where would that be and who would you see?
AG: Well, the CO would be there and a couple of his underlings and erm, they’d just go through the whole thing, right from the take off and erm, and talk to the pilot about what happened here and what happened there, and did he have any trouble, and went right through and made sure that we’d put either the bombs in the right place or erm, or supplied the people that were in the exact same spot that they were supposed to be in, because sometimes all you would get was one bloke flashing a morse letter on his torchP particularly if we were on one of those Norway trips, we used to go miles over the snow, and there would be some poor bugger right up in the mountains, with his torch, and then we would drop all these containers down there, so, what they did with them after that I don’t know, whether they towed them away or what
CB: So, the debrief, covers all the aspects of the flight?
AG: Yeh, oh yeh
CB: And, bearing in mind in many cases, your, you were a special duties squadron, so you were supplying SOE, to what extent were there SOE people there, during the debrief?
AG: Well, we assumed that, you know, there would be one or two officers there that we didn’t know where they come from, so it would have been them
CB: They were the air force officers?
AG: Yeh, it was either SOE or SAS
CB: Right
AG: Yeh
CB: What was the most memorable thing about your operational career, on operations?
AG: Oh, that one when we just got back with hardly any fuel, [laughs] the only thing that stands out in my mind
CB: Now, the aircraft had been peppered, pretty badly, why was it, it didn’t catch fire?
AG: Well, it was the way they were built, this is why we like the Stirling’s, there was nothing there to catch fire
CB: Did you have self-sealing fuel tanks?
AG: Well, up to a certain point but, that time we got caught with it, I mean, it had blown a hole about that big and of course that self-sealing didn’t work, over that size
CB: But the tank was empty anyway?
AG: Well, yeh, I ran all four engines on it, until I could see there was nothing left, and just went switching from one to another, then eking it out as well as I could, until we got back, right [hand clap] good
CB: Finally, where did you meet your wife?
AG: Ah, when I was at St Athans
CB: And what was she doing there?
AG: Well, she was doing this erm, mechanics training course, which she finished up doing, erm, I don’t think she was ever on, erm, an operating squadron, er, she was at this aerodrome down by Exeter, I went down there to see her once or twice, and erm, you know, that was it
CB: Was she on the flight line looking after the aircraft, or in the hangar?
AG: Oh, both, because erm, the only thing she ever moaned about it was the fact that they were working out in the rain, with no cover and erm, the only way they could get dry was to go in and stand with all their clothes on by this coke stove, get it red hot and stand there and hope their clothes dried, which is why she finished up with really bad arthritis in her legs, I reckon, because of that
CB: So, when did you meet her, oh you met her when you were at St Athan
AG: Yeh
CB: When did you marry?
AG: Oh, about er, about ten years later [pause] I can’t remember what year it was that we got married, no idea
CB: Sounds like about nineteen fifty-three?
AG: Hmm, probably, somewhere around there [background talking] yeh, one thing I should remember and I don’t
CB: Thank you very much
AG: Oh, it’s alright sir
CB: On the minelaying, you were talking about, so this is, the other side, having to fly the other side of Denmark
AG: Yeh
CB: How did that raid go, were you high up and then went down or, and how did you do the mining run
AG: Well, it was our first op that was, erm, well it was just a question of relying on the navigator, ‘cos I didn’t know where we were going, and erm, anyway, we had to come down really low, off this island I think it was called [unclear] Byrum [?] and er, drop these mines right across the erm, entrance to the harbour. If anything had come in there, they would have gone off, so, and then we came back, and flew up between the other side of Denmark and Sweden, and watched all Sweden being lit up, lights on the piers and all the way along the sea front, looked beautiful, we ain’t seen anything like that for years
CB: And then you were, we’ve got a picture here, of your, aircraft, on the flight line ready for take-off for Arnhem, so, could you talk us through that one?
AG: Well, erm
CB: What were you carrying?
AG: Well, the first day was alright, we were just carrying supplies, the only thing that buggered up Arnhem was the Americans, again, as usual. Erm, our troops took the first bridge, the Americans were supposed to take the second one, and we dropped our troops on the third one, and they’re the ones we were supplying, and erm, of course the Americans made a cock of it and couldn’t take theirs, which left our blokes on the third bridge sticking out on their own, and unfortunately, the intelligence was so bad, that nobody realised that, just a little way, away from there, there was, a big mass of Germans, who had taken back for a rest from the Russian front, and they had got their tanks and everything there, and our blokes on the third bridge didn’t stand a chance. They were gradually surrounded, erm, we went over there again and dropped more supplies, but the third day when we went over there, we didn’t realise but we were dropping to the Germans, and that we were sitting ducks at that height, fortunately, our pilot decided not to climb away and leave us vulnerable, he went down even further, and went in between the two milk factory chimneys and came out over the sea, clever bloke
CB: At what height were you dropping?
AG: Oh, about five hundred feet
CB: And how much stuff did you drop, it was in containers with parachutes, was it?
AG: No, it was all in, yeh, it was all in containers with parachutes, because we were, the first and second time actually dropping to our troops, it was the third time when we weren’t and didn’t realise it
CB: What was in the containers?
AG: Oh, small arms and food and supplies, and all that sort of thing
CB: Right, anything else? Good, thank you
AG: And we were erm, the planes were being loaded up, for supplies to the French, in some area, and er, we were walking out and one of the containers fell out the plane, and hit the ground, so we all went flat, so we thought knowing what was likely to be in them. Anyway, when the dust had settled and they hadn’t gone off, we walked over and had a look in this container, half of it was full of socks and the other half was full of durex, and I thought the French don’t need those [laughter] and they don’t use them anyway, [laughter] and I thought well, that’s a bloody fine thing, we are risking our necks taking over socks [emphasis] and anyway [laughter] that’s what wars all about I suppose
CB: They’d say that’s what they put in them before they chucked it
AG: Yeh, I’d forgotten, yeh, I’d forgotten about that, and I suddenly thought about this thing dropping down, and we all dived flat, because we reckoned it was going to blow up, but it didn’t, and we walked over to have a look, and that what was in it, socks and durex [laughs]
[Other] That’s the first time I’d heard Dad be angry about the Americans
AG: They were normally shit scared and badly trained
CB: The Americans?
AG: Yeh
CB: Right, erm, thank you.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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AGouldAG160708
Title
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Interview with Allen Geoffrey Gould
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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IBCC Digital Archive
Type
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Sound
Language
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eng
Format
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01:10:32 audio recording
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Date
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2016-07-08
Description
An account of the resource
Allen Gould grew up in Bournemouth and worked for the Danish Bacon company until volunteering for the Royal Air Force. He completed 32 operations as a flight engineer with 620 Squadron from RAF Fairford. Post war, he married his wife, who was training as a mechanic at St Athan when he met her. He returned to the Danish Bacon company and worked there for another forty years.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Norway
Wales
England--Gloucestershire
England--Suffolk
Wales--Vale of Glamorgan
Italy
Italy--Pomigliano d'Arco
Temporal Coverage
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1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Chris Cann
620 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bombing
flight engineer
mine laying
RAF Fairford
RAF St Athan
RAF Stradishall
Special Operations Executive
Stirling
training
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/121/2446/AEadyIET160628.2.mp3
a58a49784c2c048a7529917535777d5a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Eady, Liz
Liz Eady
I E T Eady
Description
An account of the resource
The collection consists of one oral history interview with Aircraftswoman Second Class Idina Elizabeth Tolley Eady (2131607 Royal Air Force), her service and pay book and three photographs. Liz Eady served as a telephonist at RAF Waddington.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Liz Eady and catalogued by Terry Hancock.
Identifier
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Eady, IET
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-28
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 28th of June 2016. I’m in Woking with Elizabeth Eady and we’re going to talk about what she was doing on the airfields in, during the war. So, Liz what are your earliest recollections of life?
IE: Do you mean life in the RAF?
CB: No at home.
IE: At home?
CB: Yes, and then leading to the RAF.
IE: Well we, we lived in a village and I was, I had a brother and a sister which – and there were also some other relations in the village. And then eventually – oh my father was, he grew tomatoes, cucumbers, he had about forty greenhouses. And then later on he was able to buy what was my grandfather’s house which had been divided into two. So, we had one half of it which was nearer to the town of Market Harborough. And we had a huge garden and we used to have lots of friends playing tennis and all that sort of thing. And then I went to a small private school, when I was what five would it be? Until I was eleven. And that was really very good. There was about ten of us altogether, boys and girls. And our classroom was in, what had been the stables of this house where the owner of the school lived. So, it was all quite sort of casual. And then, oh gosh I can’t remember. Oh, that’s right, then I had to come and I then went to – my Mother and Father thought because my, one of my Mother’s relations, their daughter had gone to Kettering High School, so that was my next place. Which really was a bit out of my depth. It was – so I did struggle for quite a while although I was very happy there because I made some very good friends. And I was keen on the sport. I represented them for tennis and all that sort. Gin, gin, it wasn’t gin [Laughs] and I was there for a little while and then my parents decided that probably it would be better if I went to boarding school. And I went to a private boarding school which was just outside Chorley Wood in Hertfordshire, was it called, Heronsgate, was the name of the village, which was run by two elderly sisters. Unfortunately, there was another girl there who had been at Kettering and she was very jealous of me if I had any friends there, so I wasn’t very happy. But I had some outdoor friends who were quite wealthy actually. But, and I used to go and stay with them sometimes at weekends because two of the children came to our school and I had to look after them, the little girl. And that was until – oh, I’ve got this wrong. That was before I went to Kettering High School. Kettering High School was my last one. Yes, they decided for some reason, I don’t know why, that they wanted me out of boarding school to be at home. Maybe because war was, you know, the way things were, it hadn’t actually started then. And I had to go home. And then I went to Kettering High School, that’s right. What did I do after that? Oh, that’s right. I very much wanted to be a dress designer. And I’d, there was, I started to go to Leicester College of Art. And it was a three-year course. And I’d got half way through when – I used to have to catch a train to Leicester, so I was having my breakfast early before anybody else to get the train. And then one day my Mother came in when I was having my breakfast and said ‘This is your last day, last week at college, you’ve got to go and get a job.’ And I thought ‘Gosh, what am I going to do?’ So, but there was no alternative. And I was just going down on the Monday morning. I thought ‘Well I must go in the town and see what, what sort of jobs there are going.’ And I happened to meet two people I knew and we got talking. And they said ‘Why don’t you come and join us? We’re at the corset factory but we’re working on parachutes and we need some more help.’ So, I thought ‘Oh, Father’ll go mad if he thinks I’m working at the corset factory, but still.’ So, I got an interview and I was working for AID, Aeronautical Inspection [department?]. And I was a leading viewer. I had five women under me. But because I wasn’t twenty-one I got half the pay. So, I was earning about two pounds fifty to their five pounds. Which was very difficult. And then my parents decided to move down to Buckinghamshire, Iver Heath. And where they had a village grocery store. And I was still at Market Harborough. But as I say I really hadn’t got enough money. I was dipping into my savings. So, I thought ‘Well I’ve got no alternative’. And I’d wanted to join the WAAF so I went home and I told them I was going home and I was going to join the WAAF. Which I did, I went for an interview at Northolt. And I got everything, they said they’d let me know. And that was about June I think, we got to September and I kept saying ‘I can’t think why I haven’t heard.’ Then it got to about October. I was doing the newspapers one morning, big headlines, ‘More women needed in the Armed Services,’ and I said to my Mother ‘Can’t understand this and I’m still waiting’ so she said ‘Oh no you won’t because your Father’s written up and said we can’t spare you.’ So big row, packed my bags and I was gone in a week. [Chuckling] And that’s when I went to, where did I go to? Oh gosh, I can’t remember. Might have been – oh Uxbridge I think it was, yes. And looking at the things, and I thought I’ll – I thought well I’d already done parachutes and so I said I’d like to go into that. But there were no vacancies for that and I really wasn’t sure. Then, I don’t know why, I just suddenly said telephonist. I thought ‘Well, it’ll give me a job after the war.’ And so I went to Harrogate first waiting for vacancy, I think I was there about a month, enjoyed Harrogate, had a wonderful time. Then they sent me to Bradford where I trained at the Bradford Telephone Exchange. And there were six of us and we were in civilian accommodation at night. And lovely lady she was, and she gave us too much food. [Laughs] I think she thought we were starving. And so really most of the mornings were taken up with our training and then we were sort of off duty quite early in the afternoon. And I discovered there was a wonderful lake up the road so we used to go and row, rowing. [Laughs] As I say there was about six of us. And there was one girl who had been a telephonist in civvie street. And anyway, we did the exam, and I had my paper and scribbled away at it. She kept going up for more paper, never seen anyone use so much paper, you know for an exam thing. I thought, ‘Well I’ve had it’ you know. And the next, well a week later when we had the, to go for the results, and the tutor said, when she came in, she said ‘I never thought I would have’ she said ‘It’s a tutor’s dream to have the perfect paper handed in’ and of course this girl was you know, it was hers.
CB: Yes.
IE: And it wasn’t, it was mine. A hundred per cent, and, first time in my life. [Laughs] And that’s when I was then sent to, I think it was Skellingthorpe. Oh no, no it wasn’t. It was Compton Bassett for training before I went onto telephonist job I think. Or did I go there first? I think I’m not sure.
CB: It’s alright.
IE: Anyway, I definitely went to Skellingthorpe. And there was already enough. I was a bit, you know, an extra bod there. And then they – I think it was the Rhodesians were at Waddington, and they were leaving to go elsewhere, so there was a vacancy for a telephonist at Waddington and nobody else was going to move, so I went. And that was wonderful. And the Rhodesians left and then we got the Australian squadron, two squadrons. 463 and 467. And I can’t remember. You’ll probably be able to tell me. I can’t remember, it wasn’t intelligence I don’t think. In the room I was in we had a switchboard there. And on the wall was the three, Waddington was the main base and then there was Skellingthorpe, Bardney and those. And then we had listed all the squadrons, what would that be?
CB: The operations board?
IE: Ah yes. But it wasn’t, was it operations? I don’t think so.
CB: It showed the availability of aircraft did it?
IE: Well, it was all listed up who was going where.
CB: Yes.
IE: And we had, quite, well they were mainly sort of Group Captains and such in there. I might tell you, when I knocked on, there was one. Oh, he loved his cups of tea. And I knocked, you know, go in salute smartly, ‘Good morning’ ‘Oh my God,’ he said ‘LACW Edey. Essence of pussy today chaps.’ I was the worst teamaker on the camp. Essence of pussy. [Laughter] He liked his tea, good and strong, plenty of sugar so his spoon stood up in the middle of it. [Chuckles] And I didn’t like tea anyway. But er, must have been operations was it?
CB: Well.
IE: No couldn’t have been.
CB: The other stations were satellites weren’t they?
IE: Waddington was the main base.
CB: Yes.
IE: And then the others were Bardney, Skellingthorpe what was the other one? Can’t think what I, what it was called now.
CB: But you were linking it all together were you?
IE: Um?
CB: You were linking the communications together?
IE: Oh yes. We were the main base, so I had a switchboard but I was also in touch with all the other, yes all the other –
CB: So, what was the task you were undertaking there?
IE: Um?
CB: What were you doing?
IE: Just on the switchboard, just answering whatever came in. And passing them onto whoever really. Just like an ordinary telephonist.
CB: Right.
IE: But mainly the calls were ones that didn’t go through the general switchboard and that.
CB: Because they were secure lines?
IE: Um. Yeah.
CB: That was the idea was it?
IE: Yeah, yes. Yes, so I did outside calls but the main ones inside were purely to the heads of the various departments. Like flying control and operations and that sort of thing.
CB: So what sort of shifts did you work?
IE: Um. Eight ‘til one, one to six. No, wait a minute, eight to one, one to six, oh yeah eight ‘til one, one to six. I’ve got it written down somewhere. Then to eleven and then eleven round ‘til eight o’clock in the morning. Is that four?
CB: Um, yeah.
IE: Yeah.
CB: So, a longer shift in the night?
IE: You had a long one at night, yes.
CB: Um.
IE: It was pretty quiet usually.
CB: Um. So, when the raids –
IE: Eleven ‘til eight.
CB: Yes.
IE: Yes.
CB: Um. How many switchboard operators, telephonists would there be on duty at any one time?
IE: In the main switchboard, they’d be three or four. I was on the main one to start with and then they transferred me to this other switchboard.
CB: All WAAF’s? No, no men on the exchange?
IE: Oh, we did yes. Yes, we did. I didn’t have one on that section, but on the main one yes, there were men. And there were you know in other stations in the group as well.
CB: So how many days did you work in a run?
IE: Yeah, there would be six days and then the seventh –
CB: Because Sunday was a working day like everything else?
IE: Oh yes, yes, yes. Yeah.
CB: So, six days on. How many off?
IE: Then there would be just the one. One whole day off as far as I remember.
CB: So, you’re on the airfield at Waddington. Where are you staying? What accommodation have you got?
IE: Oh, there were, what had been pre-war airmans’ married quarters. And that was the one in the photograph, we had a big room downstairs and then there was like the kitchen bit at the back. And upstairs, there was the main bedroom and a small room. Usually the small room was the sergeant or a corporal. And there was – it was just quite basic, you didn’t really. You went up to, you had to go out for your meals.
CB: Yes.
IE: You could, you know, boil a kettle and that sort of thing.
CB: But you ate in the Airmans’ mess?
IE: Yeah.
CB: How far away was that?
IE: Oh, only a few minutes’ walk. Yes, it wasn’t very far.
CB: ‘Cause the domestic site is near the technical site is it?
IE: Do you know I can’t remember. When I came, went down. No, ‘cause Waddington was a huge complex.
CB: Yeah.
IE: ‘Cause when you went down, and then there was like station headquarters and those. And a few, then further on were these billets like what were airmans’ married quarters, so they were away from the –
CB: They weren’t on the airfield were they?
IE: Yeah, the main headquarters.
CB: Um.
IE: And then just almost opposite us were the hangars. You know, right down the airfield.
CB: So, the airmans’ houses, were standard layout?
IE: Sorry?
CB: They were a standard layout, design?
IE: Yes. Yeah.
CB: How many WAAF’s in each one?
IE: Two, three. About six and a sergeant or corporal.
CB: Right, so.
IE: There were about three downstairs, three upstairs. Yes.
CB: So how many people to a room normally, a bedroom?
IE: Well yeah. Well the downstairs would be like, in the living quarters, that would be their sitting room but we had it as a bedroom.
CB: Yes.
IE: So, there was one there, there would be three.
CB: Right.
IE: And the same upstairs which would have been the bedroom. And then the corporal or sergeant would have a small, a small room.
CB: Um.
IE: I can’t remember what that was originally but yeah.
CB: So, you went to the Airmans’ mess for food? What was the food like?
IE: It wasn’t too bad actually. Yes, it was a big, huge, great room there. Yes, it wasn’t bad.
CB: Um. So, you’re working on shifts?
IE: Yes.
CB: How did the menu accommodate that?
IE: How many?
CB: How? You were working shifts?
IE: Yeah.
CB: So, people were wanting lunch at different times of the day, how did they organise that, the food?
IE: Oh, that I don’t know. Um, I don’t ever remember being told I’d got to be on a certain shift but it was just depending on you know my job.
CB: Um.
IE: What shift I was on.
CB: But they were serving food twenty-four hours a day?
IE: More or less I think, yeah I think so.
CB: Um, right.
IE: ‘Cause I sort of vaguely remember, you know, lines of people waiting to go in.
CB: Um.
IE: But it was quite big. It was on a separate – away from where we were. We had to go to this big building.
CB: Um.
IE: I can’t remember what else there was. But it was certainly – yes of course there would be. There was the Airmans’ Mess which we were in and then there would be an Officers’ Mess and um.
CB: A Sergeants’ Mess?
IE: I’m just trying to think, were we just WAAF in there? No, I think, I think it was a general mess.
CB: Yeah. What about the NAAFI?
IE: Never, never really went. There was NAAFI but I never really went to that. Don’t remember it anyway.
CB: So, when you’re working on shift?
IE: Yeah.
CB: Then how were you fed? Were you given a break or did you take food with you to eat during the shift?
IE: Well, we could take stuff with us. Yes, that would be more, rather than – no well part of our mealtime came out while we were on the shift wouldn’t it? Yeah.
CB: So, what I meant –
IE: So, you’d go for about, have about half an hour’s break.
CB: Yeah.
IE: For your meal.
CB: Um.
IE: And come back.
CB: Going to the Airmans’ Mess? OK.
IE: Yeah, yeah.
CB: And how did the WAAF’s get on together in these houses?
IE: Oh fine. Yes, well certainly there, there was no problem.
CB: So, you joined the RAF in 1940 was it? Did you join in 1940 or was it earlier? Or ’42?
IE: Wrote it down.
CB: ‘Cause you were born in ’23 weren’t you?
IE: Yeah. Because I didn’t go straight away because –
CB: You joined when you were nineteen?
IE: I did write it down. Oh, it must be there.
CB: OK.
JS: There’s something on here.
IE: I think I’ve got it written down over here.
CB: I’ll just pause then for a mo’.
IE: Pardon?
CB: I’ll just pause this.
IE: 1942.
CB: So, you joined the RAF 29th of October 1942?
IE: Yeah, I was enlisted. And then I was a telephonist 13th of June 1943.
CB: Right. When you qualified?
IE: Yeah. This is absolutely disgusting.
CB: OK.
IE: Alright.
CB: So that was just after you were twenty?
IE: Yes.
CB: And at Compton Bassett.
IE: Yeah.
CB: What did they teach you there? About the RAF or what were they teaching you? How to use the system?
IE: Oh, no it was drilling that sort of thing.
CB: Um.
IE: I don’t think we learnt too well –
CB: The –
IE: We had – ‘cause every time we were – the whole camp turned out. ‘Cause we were the only WAAF’s there, and they all turned out to watch us. And you can imagine the jeering that when on. I enlisted at Acton, June 1942, but Father wrote to have me deferred and I didn’t find out until October. So, I kept wondering then I found out. I’ve put in here, ‘Big row’. And I qualified as a telephonist, oh no it doesn’t say.
CB: OK.
IE: Until 4th of May 1946.
CB: Right. When you, what were you thinking you might do in 1946. Had you?
IE: Well this was when my Father had got me out.
CB: Yes.
IE: I didn’t really get a choice, I just had to –
CB: No.
IE: I just had to go home. But then just after that, once I got home the air force, or WAAF I suppose, got me a job as an – in a factory at er. By then we were in London, Brixton I think it was, where they were making blouses and that sort of thing. And I wasn’t very happy with that. I had a, the lady that I was working with, for, was very difficult at that time. And I thought well I’ve got to do something, you know carry on. And um, what happened? Something happened. I got to the point where I thought ‘This is no good, I’m not learning anything.’ ‘Cause they did it because I’d been learning to be a dress designer you see before I joined up. And then I was, my parents had this tobacconists/confectionery shop in West Norwood and so every now and again when I was off I used to help a bit. And this lady came in, we were talking and she said ‘Why don’t you,’ she said ‘I know it’s not the same sort of thing’ she said ‘But why don’t you go and work in a department store?’ She said ‘I can – there’s a very good – I know they’re looking for somebody in Gorringes in Buckingham Palace Road.’ So, I tootled along there and I was the sixth assistant in the hosiery department. I couldn’t serve anybody until the other five had got it. And when you’re on commission you don’t get much at the end of the week in those circumstances. But I enjoyed it, worked there for about five years I think.
CB: Um. What made you leave?
IE: Oh, I got offered something I’d been dying to do. It was something new and we’d had a girl who was working for [Unclear] and she was travelling round to different shops on sales promotions. I thought, ‘I’d like to do that.’ And I’d said to her, you know, ‘If you hear of any vacancies let me know.’ And I went back after lunch one day and there were two very smartly dressed gentlemen by our counter. I thought, ’They’ve come, they must be reps come to see the buyer.’ So, I went over and spoke to them. ‘Cause by then I was an under-buyer. And I said ‘Buyers are at lunch at the moment.’ So, they said ‘Yes, we know they are, she is, ‘cause it’s you we’ve come to see.’ I [Unclear] something. They were from I & R Morley, hosiery and knitwear, and they were just starting up this putting somebody into different department stores to promote their goods. And they said ‘Would I be interested?’ I said ‘Oh yes, I certainly am.’ And so I went for an interview, oh I could have dropped when I found where I was going to work. Arding & Hobbes in Clapham Junction it was the most awful place. [Chuckles] So, anyway I was there for, that was about September to Christmas. And just before that my boss came in and said ‘They need somebody up in Glasgow for two weeks’ and that was before Christmas. ‘Are you prepared to go?’ So, I said ‘Yes, go do anything.’ Better than sticking in Arding & Hobbes. And so, they sent me up to Glasgow. Which I thoroughly enjoyed that and then I went to Edinburgh the second week. And, of course no wonder this chap had gone sick. ‘Cause I didn’t get home until about two o’clock in the morning on Christmas Day, I had to come back by train you know. And, I mean it didn’t matter. So, after Christmas when I got back they called me back to the head office and said ‘Would you like the job of sales promotions all over the UK?’ I said ‘Yes please.’ So, I went for training and that’s what I was doing in different towns. Anywhere from Cornwall, South of England to Edinburgh, Glasgow. I think that was the furthest north I went. But it was, oh I really enjoyed that.
CB: Um. How long did you do that for?
IE: Oh, about three or four years yeah.
CB: Got tired of it?
IE: What did I do after that? Do you know I can’t remember. Oh yes, the buyer that I’d worked with when I was at Gorringes, ‘phoned me up and said she’d been, now been promoted to being a group buyer. And she said ‘I need somebody in the Camberley store in the hosiery department, would I be prepared to do that?’ Well, I was looking, you know, sort of vaguely looking for something to do. So, I went along for the interview to the director in charge of Camberley. And it was a new store, belonged to the Guildford Army and Navy Stores. And anyway at my interview he said ‘You’re too, you’ve got too much experience for that job. What I need is a floor manager for the ground floor’. So, I thought ‘Well that sounds more interesting,’ so I accepted. And they were the best years of store life that I ever had, it was wonderful. So, I had all the departments of the ground floor. The staff were fantastic, the only people that I couldn’t get on with were the buyers, the heads of department. And it was some months before I realised that it was the, and it was my fault in a way, because I hadn’t warned her that I was going to be the new floor manager. And so she was undermining me all the time.
CB: No.
IE: Yeah. Fortunately, she wasn’t there all the time ‘cause she went to all the different stores in her – that she had under her wing. And I did that for about six, five – right until retirement actually.
CB: So, you enjoyed that?
IE: Yeah and um. No, no it wasn’t. I did it for several years and then I heard that one of the directors from Army and Navy were coming. He was going to be in, based in Camberley. And I knew he didn’t like me, he hadn’t got any time for me. And so, I thought ‘I’ll do something else.’ And what did I do? Oh yeah, I applied for a job, something completely different. It was just sort of office work really.
CB: In a different?
IE: Yeah.
CB: Not in retail?
IE: No, no, no. It was, oh can’t think of the name of the people. Atlas Express Carriers.
CB: Oh.
IE: So, I went just as clerical and then I ended up in charge of the staff there. I got quite a big job there. And [emphatic] I got a pension which you don’t get in the retail, in department stores.
CB: Um.
IE: So that was, that was good.
CB: So, you were managing the whole place, were you?
IE: Yeah. Um, it was good. It was very – and I stayed there until I retired.
CB: What age did you retire?
IE: Um?
CB: What age did you retire?
IE: Sixty.
CB: Right.
IE: Yeah, you had to.
CB: Yeah, right. We’ll take a little break there.
IE: Yeah, OK.
CB: So, picking up on the story again now. We were talking about being at Waddington.
IE: Yes.
CB: And linking in with the other airfields at Skellingthorpe and Bardney.
IE: Yes.
CB: And you’re tying together the communications that are on the camp rather than outside.
IE: Yes.
CB: You’re talking to people on the ‘phone. To what extent were you dealing with other people on the station?
IE: Well really not a lot unless you went to a dance or that sort of thing. Or down at the local pub.
CB: Right.
IE: You know, but other than that because, you were in this sort of office with a switchboard and you didn’t really see anybody else much. But this one particular time there was an Australian. I think I’d met him at dance. And coming, I think when they were over the target, something like that. There was an aircraft, the aircraft, another aircraft had dropped their incendiaries. And it had, they’d hit Bill, I’ll call him Bill, hit Bill’s aircraft –
CB: Which was flying underneath?
IE: Bill’s aircraft which was flying below.
CB: Yes.
IE: And hit the, oh what was it? Anyway, one of the crew and badly injured him in his head and that and he died before they could get him back to England.
CB: Um.
IE: And I was on duty when they came back and Bill came into the switchboard, into the telephone exchange to tell me, you know, what had happened. He was in a real state. He just sat there, and, sort of trying to collect himself, until I’d finished duty and then we went and sat outside whilst he was talking about. And it was, you know, very sad ‘cause there was nothing they could do. If it had been a German it would have been different.
CB: Yes.
IE: But it wasn’t. It was one of ours. Yeah.
CB: And the crew is the family.
IE: Um?
CB: The crew is the family.
IE: Yes, of course, yes.
CB: So, it’s a very intense relationship.
IE: Yes.
CB: Um.
IE: Yeah, he was a nice chap. ‘Cause they had to go on and then ‘cause they were almost over the target.
CB: Was it? Do you know if the ‘plane was hit in other areas or just in that particular?
IE: No, just in that particular one. ‘Cause he managed to get it back.
CB: Um.
IE: Back to Waddington.
CB: You mentioned the activities, the social activities, where were those held on the station?
IE: Ah, in the dining, in the dining hall.
CB: Of the Airmans’ Mess?
IE: We had dances and that sort of thing.
CB: Yes.
IE: Mostly there, yeah.
CB: And how often did they take place?
IE: Oh, well certainly once a month. Sometimes if we got anybody else came in we might get something. Or we’d go down, ‘cause we were so near to Lincoln anyway so quite a lot of it we would go down into Lincoln.
CB: Um. And if there were dances organised off the station where would they?
IE: Oh, in Lincoln.
CB: They would?
IE: Mostly. Or sometimes at one of the other airbases.
CB: Um.
IE: Like Skellingthorpe or Bardney or somewhere like that.
CB: And how did you get around because there was less transport in those days?
IE: [Chuckles] Hitch-hiked.
CB: Yes.
IE: I was the worst person to hitch-hike anyway. I’d leave it to the others and then I’d hop on board. I hated doing that.
CB: Did you?
IE: Sometimes they did organise transport to fetch, fetch you.
CB: Fetch you back?
IE: Um.
CB: So, on your day off, which is only one in seven.
IE: Yeah.
CB: What did you do?
IE: Well mostly go out in Lincoln or one of the other places. I, even before I joined up, I used to love exploring into other places and see how people lived and that so.
IB: So, on an airfield there are a lot more people on the ground than aircrew but did the girls tend to gravitate more in one direction or another and which one was that?
IE: I don’t think so. I don’t – not really we – I think we tended to go off, apart from when there was a dance or something. I think we tended to go off to the village and go and explore. And there was quite a lot of places to go to on the outskirts, that we used to go walking and doing.
CB: So, you started at the bottom and got to LACW, what opportunity was there for advancement above that? To SACW for instance?
IE: No, well perhaps because I didn’t really bother. You know I was quite happy doing what I was doing. And apart from that you see by then I’d got my Father on my back wanting me out.
CB: Yeah.
IE: And as soon as the war had finished, that’s right it was just – ‘cause I missed all the V celebrations. I had to go, I was home on leave. And when I got back to camp he’d already done –
CB: Done the dirty on you.
IE: Done the dirty on me and I had to go straight back home. I was furious, absolutely furious. ‘Cause I really wanted to go on, you know, and further my career in the air force.
CB: Yes.
IE: I would have liked to have done that.
CB: Um. What sort of job were you hoping for next?
IE: Well I don’t know.
CB: In the RAF.
IE: Hadn’t really thought about, got into that. But, no he’d – when I got back to camp they said ‘Don’t know what you’ve been up to, but you’ve got to go and see the WAAF CO as soon as you’re back.’ Which I did and she said ‘Your release is through, go home.’
CB: So, you got leave, how much leave did you have in a year?
IE: In a year?
CB: Yes.
IE: I think you got, was it three?
CB: Three weeks was it?
IE: Seven days.
CB: And where did you go when you were on leave?
IE: I went home mostly. I think there was only about one when I didn’t and I been invited to um – yeah, ‘cause when I was at Lincoln I had my Mother’s sister lived at Doncaster so I could go, nip up there sometimes and stay with them.
CB: Um.
IE: And also I had her other sister was married to, oh what was he? Boston, he was um, oh what did they call them? He had a shop where they stocked all the things for the boats, barges and that sort of thing.
CB: Oh right.
IE: So, I used to go there sometimes.
CB: A quartermaster type job?
IE: Yes, and there was this shop.
CB: Um.
IE: And mostly I went to Doncaster, yeah.
CB: Right.
IE: My Mother’s elder sister.
CB: So how would you travel there on the train or hitch-hiking?
IE: I wasn’t very good hitch-hiking on my own. So, if I went with, if there were other people which I –
CB: Um.
IE: But I didn’t, I wasn’t very good at it.
CB: No.
IE: Because we’d have so many free passes for – I can’t remember how many. And you could travel, have a return journey for your leave which was quite good.
CB: Now as a telephonist you’re at the hub.
IE: Um?
CB: As a telephonist you’re at the hub of the communication.
IE: Yeah.
CB: On the station. Were you alert to what was going on or did you just plug in and you couldn’t hear what was happening?
IE: Um.
CB: On the conversations.
IE: Of course, most of the time you see I was on, I wasn’t on the general switchboard.
CB: No.
IE: See I was on the ones in operations and that.
CB: Um.
IE: So, I didn’t get to know a lot of the other things. But sometimes you know we’d get together and hear various things that were going on.
CB: Um.
IE: Not a lot really. I think really ‘cause you – they were pretty busy you know.
CB: Yeah.
IE: You didn’t get much time to find out anything.
CB: No. Now the loss rate amongst aircrew.
IE: There was?
CB: The rate of loss of aircrew.
IE: Oh yes.
CB: Was very high.
EE: Yeah.
CB: What reaction was there on the ground to that situation?
IE: I don’t think, I don’t remember having – I mean you really rather took it as, you know, accepted what was happening. People were there one day and then they weren’t there anymore.
CB: Um.
IE: I think if you took it too much to heart you wouldn’t survive, which sounds a bit cruel but –
CB: It’s the reality.
IE: The aircrew were the same.
CB: Of course.
IE: You know. What was it, they’d probably come in ‘Oh by the way did you hear so-and-so bought it last night?’ And that was it. Sounds a bit hard but.
CB: Well it is the reality isn’t it of the time?
IE: Um.
CB: It’s a defensive mechanism in many ways.
EE: Yeah.
CB: Of the horror of it I suppose.
IE: Just –
CB: What about?
IE: We used to get – I used to [Unclear] after the war when we got all about Dresden and all those sort of things. And you get this backlash of how dreadful it, you know, and what were we doing and that. And I used to get cross. ‘What do you think they were doing to us for goodness sake?’ You know what about Coventry?
CB: Um.
IE: And all those other things. I mean war is horrible.
CB: Um.
IE: But, so didn’t really talk about it after.
CB: No. Some of the girls will have had relationships with the aircrew.
IE: That’s very true.
CB: So how did that work?
IE: I do remember one or two were in a right bad state because their fella had not returned. But I really think you got – because it was happening all the time, it sounds a bit hard but you just were sorry at that moment and it was a shock, and then you just had to carry on. There was nothing else you could do, not really. But I think that’s why we had so many dances and that sort of thing to take your minds off it.
CB: Yeah. So how was the music supplied at the dances?
IE: Oh, there was a small band from local bands and that sort of thing. Yeah, from Lincoln.
CB: Yeah.
IE: Or round about.
CB: What about security? How tight was that on the station?
IE: I don’t really think it was. Looking back it seemed to be pretty lax. I mean you just wandered around. I mean you couldn’t go out or come back in again. You know, there was a sentry there which would charge you for coming in and out. But I must admit you did find a gap in the hedge sometimes, nip out.
CB: Yeah, yeah.
IE: But, um –
CB: Was the airfield surrounded with barbed wire or a fence of some kind, what was it?
IE: Oh, I don’t know, I can’t remember. I think it was fences and hedges.
CB: Um.
IE: Yeah.
CB: And what about anti-aircraft guns on the airfield?
IE: Yeah, they were around. They were circling right round the thing, but they weren’t that near to us.
CB: No.
IE: No.
CB: OK. Just going to pause again. Are you OK or do you need a glass of water? Jan, anything that comes out of the conversation, that perhaps ‘cause you’ve talked to Mary a good deal.
Unknown: No I don’t think so. ‘Cause she didn’t marry did she? Did she marry? Well that has –
CB: No, no, the lady we were talking about. Her fiancé was killed three months after she met him.
IE: Oh.
CB: So that was the same. I mean that was what you said earlier.
IE: Yeah.
CB: They don’t actually get, she didn’t get over it but she put it to one side.
IE: Um.
CB: But always remembered.
IE: Um.
CB: Yes.
IE: That’s true.
CB: So that’s what I’m just wondering you see.
IE: Yes, that it true. But –
CB: Oh, wait a minute. Right, we’re just talking about relationships a bit more.
IE: Um.
CB: Yes.
IE: Yes, it is true. I did know of one or two people who their fellas had been killed.
CB: Um.
IE: And they really went to pieces. But mostly, either that or quite often they got posted elsewhere so –
CB: What to non-operational airfields?
IE: Um, yeah. Yes probably, yes to pick up. But I do remember one or two very sad cases where they, the girl had really gone to pieces. And they had to, you know, go home or they ended up in hospital.
CB: Oh really, yeah.
IE: It’s very sad.
CB: ‘Cause on the air traffic front where they’re listening in to communication, that perhaps created a bit of an extra challenge did it?
IE: Um, what do you mean?
CB: So, the girls are in air traffic.
IE: Oh yeah.
CB: And so, they’re in touch with the bombers.
IE: That’s right. And you would hear them, I know where I was working you could hear them talking.
CB: Oh, could you?
IE: Yes, yes. I wish I could remember what it was called.
CB: So, your office was in the tower, was a room in the tower was it?
IE: No, no. No, I was on the station.
CB: Yes, but on [controlled?] area, on the technical site.
IE: Yes, there was intelligence and all those. I can’t remember what they were called. As I said on one wall there was the, all the stations in our group.
CB: Yes.
IE: Like Waddington, Bardney, Skellingthorpe.
CB: Yeah. Everything was listed up.
CB: Um.
IE: And as, and the names of the crew, the names on the crew. And it was awful once or twice that there were people I knew. Like for instance, I was very friendly, we had the Bomber Command film crew unit at Waddington and I was home on leave, one – Oh it was just as I was going to, I was on my way to Waddington, I’d finished my training so I was going to Waddington. And I was in our shop and I’d got my uniform on. This lady came in and she said ‘Oh, I didn’t know you were in the WAAF.’ So, Mother said ‘She’s just finished telephone training, and she’s posted she’s going off to Lincolnshire.’ So, this lady said ‘Where are you going to?’ I said ‘Waddington.’ She said ‘Oh, my husband’s at Waddington, do make yourself known to him, he’s in the film unit.’ And of course when I get there he’s only a squadron leader. [Laughs] So I didn’t, but he found me. He came and found me on the switchboard.
CB: Yeah.
IE: And so there were three camera men. And a friend of mine who was the corporal she and I used to go out, you know down to the pub, or somewhere. And so we used to meet up with the Crown film unit at the pub at Harmston, which was down the road. Used to borrow camp bikes and cycle off down there. It was great, used to enjoy that. So, there were three camera men and then sadly I was on duty one evening and the – in the ops room, and on the board, and I saw – oh, it was the, it was that raid on Dresden and John who was from Pinewood, the film studio, he wasn’t listed to go on the Dresden raid, the other camera man was going. But he thought it was going to be an interesting raid. So, he tried to beg a lift from someone somewhere and he tried other places in the group. And he managed to get on a flight so he could go and see this raid at Dresden. There was one Lancaster lost over Dresden wasn’t there?
CB: Yes.
IE: And he was on it.
CB: Good heavens.
IE: And gosh I thought ‘What do I do?’ I can’t ‘phone his wife.
CB: Yes.
IE: I can’t do anything. That was awful.
CB: Um.
IE: I found. You couldn’t contact anybody.
CB: No.
IE: To say, you know, this awful thing had happened. It happened to me again another time. A friend of mine that I’d worked with when I was in parachutes before I’d joined up. And she married aircrew at Market Harborough. And she said to him. Oh, he was then posted, I don’t know where it was, I can’t remember. Somewhere near Waddington and he was posted. And so she told him to come and look me up. And he rang me up so I met him in Lincoln, we went and had a cup of tea. A week later he was missing. It was just like that.
CB: Um.
IE: And you know nothing you could do.
CB: No.
IE: You couldn’t ‘phone up and say ‘Oh dear, I’m sorry,’ yeah. I found that difficult.
CB: Um.
IE: But the silly thing was that John in the film unit, he didn’t have to go. And he picked the wrong aircraft.
CB: Um.
IE: To go on.
CB: Extraordinary. So, what was this film unit doing most of the time?
IE: Oh, they went out on ops and would be filming wherever, you know.
CB: Um.
IE: That was mostly what they were doing.
CB: So, the WAAF’s were in quite good accommodation, but then the men had barrack blocks so they were quite comfortable as well were they?
IE: I don’t know. ‘Cause some of them, even at Waddington, some of the WAAF’s were in – I don’t know if I ever got into one of those blocks. Oh yeah, I did once somewhere. Can’t remember where it was now. Wasn’t too bad, no.
CB: No. A topic that is discussed a lot now is what is otherwise called battle fatigue. But in the war was called LMF, lacking moral fibre.
IE: Lack of moral.
CB: What do you remember about that?
IE: I remember one chap and he was in a very sad state. He was, he didn’t know what he was doing. And people were being a bit horrible about him, and said ‘Oh, he’s just putting it on.’ I don’t know whether he was or not but, but I don’t remember anything, anybody else particularly. But I think quite often they just moved them on.
CB: Um.
IE: You know.
CB: But he was aircrew was he?
IE: Mostly yeah. You couldn’t blame him could you? You know it’s pretty awful.
CB: Um.
IE: Yeah.
CB: And did you, were you aware of aircrew talking to the girls about their experiences? Or did they tend to keep it much to themselves?
IE: I think mostly they kept it to themselves, yeah. They didn’t – I mean apart from that one incident with Bill you see, because that had happened with this chap had been killed by friendly incendiaries.
CB: Yes.
IE: But he didn’t normally say. I think it was ‘cause he was so shocked he needed to talk to somebody.
CB: Um.
IE: but I wasn’t aware of. I think they probably amongst themselves rather than to us.
CB: Yes. Good, thank you very much indeed Liz. When the war ended, you went your own ways.
IE: Um.
CB: To what extent did you keep in touch with each other?
IE: Yes, well I did. There was, which one is it? Yes, the one in the middle at the back.
CB: In your picture, yes.
IE: Florence, and that’s her daughter.
CB: Oh yes.
IE: So, she’s my god-daughter.
CB: Yes.
IE: There on that little group.
CB: Um.
IE: Yes, I kept in touch with her, you know, we were good friends.
CB: Um.
IE: I’d go and stay with them right up until she died. And as I say, Trish she annoys me really in a way. She will treat me like a real old lady. [Laughter] I know I’m an old lady!
CB: You’re very sprightly.
IE: But I remember when Florence my friend, she was, oh I can’t remember where they lived, her husband died. And Trisha took me over to see her Mother in this home. And we went off into this room where she was, and there were other people there as well. And there she was sitting, with a shawl over her, and she was sitting like this. And I thought ‘That’s not my friend.’ She’s never been like that. And I was so shocked at the state that she was in. And anyway she said to Trish, ‘Would you go down to the shop round the corner’ and get me so and so, whatever. So, she went off, before that girl was out of the building off went the shawl. Mother in the kitchen buzzing around and that was a good lesson I learnt. You know it was really, it was amazing. But she does it to me. When she comes and visits, I’ve got a visit due sometime soon, and I dread it. And the first time, where was I? I wasn’t here, I was oh in another flat, further in Woking. And she came to visit me and she was helping me across the road. I was so cross. I said ‘Trisha, what do you think I do when you’re not here?’ You know?
CB: Yes.
IE: But she does you see?
CB: Yes.
IE: I’ve got a visit due soon and I really dread it. Bless her heart she’s a lovely person.
CB: Yes.
EE: But if only she’d just treat you normally.
CB: Yes.
EE: But [saying that?] but that was a good lesson to learn. That, um what happens when people sort of mother you when you’re really quite capable of carrying on.
CB: Yeah, yeah.
IE: Nobody does it to me here. [Laughs]
CB: Many of the aircrew didn’t get married in the war because they were nervous about leaving.
IE: That’s true, I believe so.
CB: Yes.
IE: Yes, yes.
CB: And were you aware of what happened afterwards, people?
IE: Not really, no I don’t.
CB: Because they married people who were clearly not in the RAF but I was.
IE: Yes.
CB: But I was interested in aspects where they had relationships.
IE: Ah, with other people.
CB: Relationships with WAAF’s and didn’t marry in the war.
IE: Yeah. I’m just trying to think if I know of anybody. Um, no. It was really only that one particular one.
CB: Um.
IE: And in that photograph I think two of them went to Australia.
CB: Did they really?
IE: And because there was quite an exodus of people going to Australia.
CB: Um. They weren’t following some of 463 and 467 Squadron?
IE: Um.
CB: Were they? They weren’t following the Australian aircrew back to Australia?
IE: Oh yes.
CB: Oh, they were?
IE: Oh, they were yes. Yeah, yes, they were. Nearly got there myself, I didn’t want to go and leave England.
CB: Did you? What was the attraction of Australia?
IE: Pardon?
CB: What was the attraction of Australia?
IE: Oh well it was my boyfriend went over there.
CB: Oh, did he?
IE: No, I made it quite clear I would never go.
CB: Oh right.
IE: Funnily enough of my sister’s children, two of them went to Australia.
CB: Did they?
IE: And one of them he did come back. He said he’d never worked so hard in all of his life. He was fruit picking, a fruit farm.
CB: Oh yes.
IE: The other one, I thought he was mad going. Because he was mad on animals and he was working at Chester Zoo. And then suddenly decides to go to Australia on this –
CB: Ten pound?
IE: Was it five years or whatever?
CB: Yeah.
IE: And I thought, I couldn’t understand that. But anyway, they arrived in Australia and he was workin up the west coast and what does he come across? A zoo. So, he got a job there in an Aussie zoo and then he came back and put in for another few years, he’s working in a zoo in Australia now.
CB: Oh really?
IE: Yeah, loving it. But the other one came back, he’s in England.
CB: Um.
IE: They were cousins, they weren’t –
CB: Final question. We’ve talked about the squadron associations, are mainly aircrew and mainly men.
IE: Yeah.
CB: So, to what extent did you feel linked to a squadron and then follow up with associations afterwards?
IE: Not, not really. I did join the WAAF Association.
CB: Um.
IE: And the trouble was that they met at Putney. And I was down here and it was such a job getting there and then crossing London.
CB: Um.
IE: Getting to there. And it was a bit boring. But I do belong to the RAF Association. I’m thoroughly disgusted with them. It’s about a year now. I used to join in everything when I was, belonged to it.
CB: Um.
IE: And we first used to meet in the town and it was, what’s his name? Pip. He’s RAF Association at Fareham. Pip, Pip something or other. And he used to be at the one here.
CB: At Woking, yeah?
IE: Yeah, Woking. And when I first joined, and I’d been doing some fundraising at the department stores I’d worked at and I managed to raise a really good sum. And he said ‘Would I do the Wings appeal?’
CB: Oh.
IE: So, I said ‘Yes, sure I would.’ Of course, I go to do it and of course I’m up against English RAF aren’t I? With all due respect to them, and nobody would help me.
CB: Really?
IE: ‘Cause I, first of all I –
CB: How strange.
IE: I said, you know, can you tell me if you’ve got any particular place you’d like to stand, you know, with your tin and the rest of it. No, they weren’t going to tell me anything. In fact, they weren’t going to co-operate with me at all.
CB: How strange.
IE: So, I thought ‘What am I going to do?’ And across the road, the house straight across the road, number twelve, a cousin of mine used to live there. And when I came, I used to during the war – I mean this was a lovely house. Oh no it was after the war. Anyway, I got, when I came to live in Woking, can’t remember how but I got friendly with them. And so, I was over there one day and I said ‘I’ve got this problem about collecting and nobody’s going to co-operate with me, where can I raise money?’ They said ‘Car wash.’ I said ‘Car wash, where am I going to do that?’ They said ‘You could do it there but people like having it done at home.’ And I don’t know where it is now, it might be there. I got photographs of these youngsters from across the road, and their friends all busy doing car washing. And I raised over two thousand pounds.
CB: Fantastic.
IE: And I never told the RAF Association what I’d been doing, doing it quietly. [Laughter]
CB: How funny.
IE: Yeah. And Pip, ‘cause in that time he’d already been sent over to Fareham.
CB: Um.
IE: But he’s still in touch, he still contacts me every now and again.
CB: Does he? Um.
IE: Yes, him and his wife, Betty.
CB: Yeah.
EE: But um the Woking RAF Association they don’t, didn’t like the WAAF at all. There were ten ex-WAAF at one time and now there’s one.
CB: Extraordinary.
IE: ‘Cause everybody got fed up with it and they just left, they didn’t.
CB: Yeah.
IE: Which is a shame really.
CB: Yes. What was the most memorable part of your RAF service?
IE: Oh gosh, well I think the days with the Australians in Waddington really were. I suppose that’s the time, and with the film unit. I think because that was the time when most things happened.
CB: Um.
IE: Really.
CB: So, did you get yourself on the film?
IE: On film? No, I ducked out. No, not that I know of anyway.
CB: No.
IE: never seen any –
CB: So, do we detect a bias here towards Australians? ‘Cause you had an Australian boyfriend.
IE: Not really, no, no. No I did, but unfortunately he also had a girlfriend in London where he went on leave.
CB: Oh.
IE: I was quite well aware of it.
CB: Oh, you were?
IE: And –
CB: Two-timer, right.
IE: Well he didn’t say and I wasn’t letting on I knew but his crew they didn’t like her.
CB: Oh right.
IE: They liked me. [Laughter]
CB: So, you didn’t swap him for an English version?
IE: No, no. Not really, I really wasn’t bothered. I, one way or another. After was it um, no, much to my Father’s disgust. I um, I got to within ten days of my, the date of my marriage and I chucked it in.
CB: Did you?
IE: It wasn’t RAF.
CB: Oh, right.
IE: It was very silly but. No, it was to do with money.
CB: Um.
IE: And it was so silly. But thank goodness I knew, I found out in time.
CB: Um.
IE: My Father wouldn’t speak to me for a long time and I never told him what, you know, exactly what had happened, so he didn’t know.
CB: No.
IE: All I got was a curt letter. ‘How very foolish, just like Aunt Lucy.’ Apparently, this was what one of his sisters did.
CB: Oh really.
IE: And that’s all I got. Sympathy, didn’t get any.
CB: Yes. So, you forged a good career instead?
IE: Yes. no, I had good friends so I was alright.
CB: Yes. Well, thanks very much Liz, it’s been fascinating.
IE: Oh well. I can’t think there’s anything else but –
CB: We’ve just been talking about the winter snow in this picture. And tell us what you had to do then.
IE: Yes.
CB: How deep was the snow?
IE: Oh, it would be up to your – more than knee deep.
CB: Yes, right up your thighs?
IE: Yes. And it would come down and we had to clear the runways. Of course, there was a mechanical thing.
CB: Yeah.
IE: But everybody that was off duty was given a spade.
CB: Oh.
IE: And shovel. Shovel the snow away.
CB: Yeah.
IE: And I found this, it was a Christmas card. I thought it was wonderful. That’s exactly what it was like.
CB: A picture of a Lancaster.
IE: Yeah.
CB: And ground crew shovelling the snow away. Yeah, so it would take some time to clear the runway ‘cause it’s long.
IE: Oh yes. Yeah, I mean there was people just shovelling, yeah.
CB: How long would it take to clear?
IE: Oh I don’t know –
CB: The runway.
IE: I mean most, part of it would be mechanical. You know, they’re have this whatever. I don’t know what it was but it would go down.
CB: Um.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Elizabeth Eady
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AEadyIET160628
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Description
An account of the resource
Before the war, Liz worked in aeronautical inspection at a factory which made parachutes. She had an interview in Northolt and enlisted in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force in October 1942. She went to Uxbridge and chose to be a telephonist. After a month in Harrogate, she was trained at the Bradford Telephone Exchange. Liz was sent to RAF Compton Bassett for further training and then on to RAF Skellingthorpe. She took up a vacancy at RAF Waddington where there were two Australian squadrons (463 and 467 Squadrons).
Liz describes her work on the switchboard, the shifts and accommodation, as well as her social life. Her highlights were the Australians at RAF Waddington and the film unit operating from there.
After pressure from her father, Liz had to leave in May 1946, and went on to have a successful and varied career.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chris Brockbank
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-28
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Dawn Studd
Cathie Hewitt
Sally Coulter
Format
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01:24:01 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
463 Squadron
467 Squadron
entertainment
ground personnel
operations room
RAF Bardney
RAF Compton Bassett
RAF Skellingthorpe
RAF Waddington
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/131/2141/ABascombeEJ151001.2.mp3
1461f89e68398058e259d4c8f8b41ac5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jones, Ron and Bascombe, Betty
E J Bascombe
Ron Jones
R Jones
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview and a series of photographs and documents detailing the lives of Ron Jones (646212 Royal Air Force) and his wife Elizabeth J Bascombe (now). A document she wrote describes how she met Ron, their short marriage and his disappearance. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Elizabeth Bascombe and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. <br /><br />Additional information on Ron Jones is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/112508/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bascombe, EJ
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-01-01
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CB: Right, my name is Chris Brockbank and er, I’m interviewing Betty Bascombe, at the home of Gaynor McKay, and we’re in Sedgebrook near Grantham, and we’re going to talk about er, two things really, one is where Betty is a widow of a flight engineer and then her time in the Army. So, and the date is the first of October and we’re going to be running for probably an hour and a half. Betty, would you like to start off please by explaining er, your early life, where you come from, the family and how you met erm, your late husband, first husband Ron, Ron Jones?
EB: Yes, well, I come from Cardiff, and I was born in Cardiff of Welsh parents and we lived in, well, first of all with my Grandmother, she had a fish and chip shop, and then we moved to a place called Ely which was quite countrified, and I had a sister and two brothers. We were all very, very happy family altogether and it wasn’t a very big place, Ely was just being built up at the time, and my two brothers died when they were very young, they had heart problems, so it was just my sister and I left. When I first left school, well, first of all the school I went to, we didn’t have one there, we had to go to, I had to go to another village, but eventually we got one in the village, but when I left school, I went to work erm, in confectionery, I wanted to learn the trade there, then afterwards when the war was on, decided I had better go and get a job elsewhere that was more suiting to help out with the country, so I got permission to go, from the confectionery, because that was also important, for people to have bread and hey what have you, and, I managed to get a job at Llantrisant, in, that was further up in Cardiff, outside Cardiff, the ROF factory, Royal Ordnance factory, they’d been bombed out in London and had moved to Llantrisant, and they were opening a new shop as they called it, [unclear] shop and from there we still had to go on special buses because it wasn’t on the door step, it was quite a little way to travel, and I worked there and on guns, on six pounder guns, six or seven pounders, whatever, I can’t remember, on beech blocks and that was very, very interesting work. You had to get them just complete, so that when they were fitted in the guns, there was no burr or anything on them that would cause a problem for them to put everything in for it to go perfect, you know, when they fired it. Anyway, after I was still working there when I met Ron. Now, I was friendly, my friend Winnie, she was courting somebody called Sid, and on a Saturday night she worked late and I would walk with her down to Sid’s parents’ house, so that they would then walk me all the way back to Ely, which was quite a few miles away, and that happened on, every Saturday night sort of thing and then a few Saturday nights when I had gone, Ron, who I hadn’t met earlier on, he was home on leave, I’d seen him around, but not you know, not bothered about him and er, he’d been home a few times on weekend leaves and this weekend, that we went, he was there sitting in his Dad’s armchair reading, and then he said, ‘Are you going out with anybody at the moment?’, and I said, ‘No, not now’, so I finished with that date [laughs] anyway, he said, ‘ well, I’ve got an invite to a party, so, I’ve got to take somebody, so how about coming with me?’, so I said, ‘oh, yes, ok’, and that was the start of us going out together. So, that was like the early forties, the beginning of the forties, so, and consequently, it went on from there and every time he came home we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves going out, but we were more for theatre and that sort of thing, we went to the pictures. He also liked walking, and he played rugby for Penarth when he was younger, so he used to slip down there and see them, while I, because you couldn’t stay off work then you see, you had to go to work, my shifts then, we used to do twelve hour shifts, fortnight days, fortnight nights, and used to just have just a Sunday off between, but you didn’t mind, you felt you were helping the boys and hopefully win the war, the war like, you know [pause] can we stop?
CB: yeh, ok, we can stop just for a moment
EB: Then, eventually, [background noise] we had to work to a very fine, er, to [unclear] an inch, to make sure the clearance was there, and eventually I was made a blue girl, and, that meant, when we first went in we wore green overalls, you see, when you became a blue girl, which you were in charge of just so many but you had a boss over you like a man did, but they were all older men that most likely had retired and come back to work, and we had one called Charlie over us, that was lovely, and erm, so, I worked with them, and it was only, while I was there, that Ron, I got the information about Ron, because when I was obviously starting working there I was seeing him and then I got married in the January while I was still there, and of course consequently in the April, it wasn’t very long at all, Ron went missing, erm
CB: Its taking you back a bit?
EB: Yes
CB: So, you [coughs] excuse me, you, you walked out with Ron, and you went walking [emphasis] and you went to the theatre, how did that progress, before, to getting engaged and married, how?
EB: Oh, that’s, we went out for quite a while, I can’t remember dates off hand
CB: Okay
EB: We went out together for quite a while, but we decided, that er, we wouldn’t get married until the war was over, which a lot of them done, we all said the same thing, save, and when the war was over we would be able to enjoy it, and then all of a sudden we got this big [unclear] a big air raid warden there then, that was terrible the air raid then, and all of the country was bad, and then we still thought er, no, we’ll be okay. And then, Ron he went on a trip to America, they used to go back and forth then, America wasn’t in the war, and I think they used to help out, with planes, but the men used to have to go to Canada to pick them up and fly them home from there. And, on one trip that they went, there were about five crews aboard this one, if I remember rightly, I think he said about forty odd, and they came down in the Atlantic. He only remembers coming too, he was told he was hitched on by his shoulder blade, on the edge of the plane and, they got him off of there, and next time he came to, he was in a dinghy, and he said there were men, you know, on the side of the boat, then when he come to again, he didn’t, he didn’t know what was going on. Somebody gave him a drink of something, and then the next time he remembered he was in hospital in Hollywood and they told them there that there had been a crash. But, I believe there was only so many, six I think he said, that had survived from all that had gone on. There was obviously an inquest into what happened, afterwards, but I couldn’t tell you what the results were, that was I don’t know
CB: Okay
EB: Erm
CB: So, he came back and saw you?
EB: Oh, gosh, yes, and we wouldn’t have known about it but it was his twenty-first birthday, so that was a big date, twenty-first birthday at the [unclear] at Christmas time and it was only that his young cousin went to jump on his back that he said, ‘don’t do that’, I said, ‘why what’s wrong?’, he said, ‘tell you after’, and then he told me, but he said, ‘don’t tell my Mum I’m flying, I don’t want my mother to know she will worry’. And, that was the first time I knew that he was actually flying around as well, I thought when he said he was going away up to Scotland, [unclear] I thought he was going up there to, you know, to do more training or something like that. Anyway, that’s how he came to tell me about it, and he had quite a scar under his shoulder blade from it. Then I think it, it was then, that I think that he came down to, after that, that he came down to, I knew it was around Lincoln, but I think that’s where he started coming down, to the last one that they went to [pause]
CB: Right, well, we will stop there again just for a minute
EB: Its, I get
CB: Restarting now, we’re talking about how you communicated with Ron
EB: Yes
CB: Because clearly, he was some way, away from you, and you were still in the ammunitions factory, so how did you do that?
EB: That’s right, well, we didn’t get much leave at all there, obviously because we were all so busy, and, but Ron when he could come home, it would be an odd weekend and a surprise time. You didn’t very often get the full eight or ten days then, but he was stationed down in, erm
CB: Cosford
EB: Cosford, yes, and erm, [pause] and erm, this is where he was going out then on all the different trips that I didn’t know fully about, but we wrote, each day wrote a bit, they wouldn’t be posted every day but we would get the letters sent through so that was lovely. And then, one day he said, he came home on leave, and he said, ‘I don’t think we’ll wait until the end of the war’, he said, ‘I think we should take our chances, let’s get married now’. So, that was in forty-three and we were waiting then to try and get a decent leave so we could arrange it, but also you had to think about trying to get your wedding dress in, get the clothes, get the food, because everything was rationed. You had good neighbours, everybody was trying to save up their fruit, for a decent fruit cake, instead of a little sponge and erm, things like that, everybody was saving their coupons so you could get the wedding clothes, and we thoroughly enjoyed it. His Mum and Dad had said we could go and live with them, because they had quite a big house there, and the people that had been in [unclear] were going, so the idea was that Ron and I would have the top of the house, and because they were older they were going to make theirs into the bottom half, as another flat, that was what we arranged. And then, all of a sudden, he said, I can get a few days off at the beginning of January, so it was arranged for, we’d get married in January on the twenty-sixth, that was nineteen, ninety-four, forty-four
CB: Good
EB: And that was we, we got married on the second, of a four day leave and then he went back on the four-day leave, at the end of the fourth day. And the next leave he got we could only keep writing to each other after that, and just wishing and praying that the war would soon be over, he could come home for good. Anyway, he next came home, and we had a fort, a weekend, and that was just a quickie weekend, and then the next time, he came home on an eight-day leave. That was lovely because we said we weren’t going to talk war, and we were talking and planning, all we wanted to do, what we would do, where we would go. He would have made the RAF his career, that was definite, he loved the career, he liked going in the air force, because it was his life, and how did I feel about it? I suppose that where ever he went I was willing to go, so that was quite happy about it, and erm, then he came home, he’d got this leave and he came home in the January, and we got married, on the twenty-sixth and then that was the second day of his leave, and then he went back, he had to go back on the fourth day, so he went back
CB: So, at this time, he was flying in bombers, in Lincolnshire, was he?
EB: Oh yes, he was flying, I knew he was flying
CB: At Skellingthorpe?
EB: I knew he was out a lot but he never talked about his work, he would never talk about where he was going or anything like that what so ever and he still kept the letters going, but sometimes it was a little bit, ‘sorry this isn’t very long tonight, it’s only a little bit, and but just to let you know I’m thinking about you and waiting for the day when I can come back to home again’, all that, it was lovely. He’d send his love, and also remembering his Mum, he was writing to his Mum and everybody but just didn’t have the chance to write to everybody at the time, they were very busy, and then of course he said he was trying to get home for my birthday, and my birthday was the thirtieth of April, so I thought well, this night his step brother was there and he was doing a bit of tormenting, you know, how’s the old married woman, going on, this sort of thing, when the door went and he went, and when he came back and he said I’ve got a telegram. I said, ‘that’s Ron coming home to deal with you, he said he’d get home for my birthday’, and he just shook his head because he knew, it was the cyclist that had bought it and the colour of the envelope. And he said, ‘no, I’m afraid not, he’s missing’. We were just absolutely stunned, his Mum and I had been stood up laughing and talking with him, and we just sat at the table. We said, he can’t be, he can’t be, and it was just absolute silence, but I think we were all just so stunned about it, and Sid just passed over the, what’s the name, Tom I should say. Tom just passed it over and his Mum was looking at it, and well, it was just another night I can’t tell you much about it, you just felt you were in another world, you couldn’t believe it. And then, of course, you got to pick up the traces, haven’t you and carry on. I didn’t go back to work, I just felt I couldn’t cope with work, stayed put and erm, and tried to deal with finding out what I could because it just said he was missing, Ron was missing, and that’s how it was like that, for quite a long time. I kept going down to the Red Cross and er, down at the bottom of Lewis Road in Cardiff and trying to find out from them everything, but actually it was the Geneva Red Cross that I got the information from, eventually, of where Ron was. But it was a temporary grave that he was, that they had put him in, but that then was, I think that was er, oh gosh, I’m trying to think how long ago it was afterwards
CB: It was still during the war?
EB: Oh gosh, yes, yes it was still the war going on
CB: But there were plenty of people around who were trying to help?
EB: Oh, gosh, everybody was trying to help and I mean, you know, friends were doing all they could, they were trying to find out, they were trying to help you. And then, of course, this was forty-four, April forty-four, and of course you got [unclear] with all the big, well that was another big air raid and everything wasn’t it, it was terrible that year. And when they had the one with all them going over, and it was one night and, well the planes they were just like big black birds in the sky, all night long it went, and I’ve forgot how many there is now, that went all together but windows were rattling and as you sat on the window sill, this was going on and it had started early evening and it went on all night. And, then when I went out, I had gone back into work then because when I went back to work the next morning erm, the planes were still going over, and then we found out that there had been big raids and that
CB: This is the fifth and sixth of June nineteen forty-four
EB: Yes, it was, and this was, I can’t think at the moment the dates
CB: So, what was your employer’s reaction, they were happy to give you time off for bereavement or, what did they do?
EB: Well actually, well, the doctor just put me on sick
CB: Right
EB: I had to be because I was, I just couldn’t cope with anything, and there’s no way I could have gone, filing the measuring gauges or going near machines or anything like that, so, consequently, I didn’t go back to work at all. They told me then of course, the end of the war came, and erm, they wrote and said that a lot of servicemen were coming back, but they would still give me, offer me a job, but I would be going on, most likely one of the machines, like drilling machines and erm, I wrote back and said no. I don’t think I could have worked watching other men, working there, thinking my Ron has never come back. You know, it wasn’t, I was so glad for all of them and the that night we had when they announced that it was peace and war was over, I was at my Mother’s house, the other side of Cardiff, and when I came to go back home that night, I thought I’d get back to be with his Mum and Dad, they’ll be on their own and I went to go back, no buses were running, everybody was happy, going mad, and I walked through Cardiff town, oh, and that was alive, all round the City Hall, everything, and as I went back, back home, I passed the corner of where the, there’s a little hospital on the corner of one of the roads, this end of Richmond Road, and erm, it was a little Welsh one, and there were wounded soldiers in there, and one large, at one of the bathroom windows, he said, ‘what is it like up town?’ and he hadn’t let his parents know he was back home, he said, ‘I haven’t told them yet I’m back home’, because he’d lost a limb and he didn’t want his girlfriend to know. And I said, ‘look, you just let them know because if you’ve got no arms and no legs don’t worry about it’, I said, ‘they’ll just be glad to have you home’, I said. I wish I could. Well, I got home with his Mum and Dad, and we just sat there talking about Ron and drinking a cup of tea round the table, and saying if only, and I still believed that he could still be alive, I could not believe that he wasn’t going to come home. I was convinced he was in hiding and I would find him, and that is what I’d done when I was in the ATS, in the ATS, I’d gone out to Germany, and I was convinced that I would [emphasis] find him and my Army officer was also trying to work a leave that would suit him with friends.
CB: If I just take, if I just take you back a bit, what was the erm, role of the Swiss Red Cross, to what extent were they able to give you details about Ron?
EB: Well, they sent it down through to the one, all they said was that, er, [pause] Oh how was it worded? I’m trying to think how it was worded. It just said that, erm, it was sorry that the plane had come down, and erm, and that one of the people had got back
CB: So, one person had survived, but only one?
EB: One person, yes, but that was all and they were sorry to say, you know, that Ron wasn’t alive
CB: Yes
EB: So, that was, that was, I can’t remember the exact words of the telegram, it just er, you know, to let us know, confirm, that definitely that was him, and it was somewhere in France in a temporary grave, and they gave the name of the grave, that Ron’s Mother had, there all those at her house and somehow some of those got lost there, because it was put in a, there was a little secret drawer in this set of drawers that they’d given us, it was like, do you remember the old fashioned bookcases and writing set? And it would open and there was always a little drawer, well I put stuff in there, well they let somebody else have it afterwards and ‘cos I said no, I won’t take it you’ve got other sons as well, somebody else had, had it in the family, but what had happened to the things in the drawer, they’ve all just been got rid of, nobody knew where they were, and the ones that I had, copies and, the one, the main one of all I had with me, and I’d left that with somebody, with a lot of things in a bag, nice big, you know, safe bag with other things to do with my family and all that was lost. So, when the bombing was on, somehow or another it had just gone missing out of the house. Somebody had taken it to put it in a safe place, but we never found out where, but whether Mum had passed it on to one of her brothers or something, it had sellers, I don’t know, a lot of the family big photographs, that had belonged to her Father. He was in the navy and so we had all, well everybody on the wall, you know, Battle of Waterloo, everything was all around the wall [laughs] and all those, they were given to somebody to put in store, we never found out where they were, never found out ever, so whether they had them at their house and it might have been bombed or anything, we don’t know
CB: Where, where was the bombing in Cardiff?
EB: Pardon?
CB: What areas of Cardiff were bombed?
EB: Oh, there was some parts, Llandaff Cathedral that was hit, that was a mile from us and it was beautiful there, but it was damaged pretty badly and they have rebuilt it but they’ve not done the spire, same as what it used to be. What was beautiful, was all the glass windows were broken, all the way around, it was all into the paths and the surround, and when the moon shone it was really pretty to see it all, but as far as the poor cathedral went, that really was a state, but that’s afterwards, everybody went through Llandaff Cathedral because, you had lovely walks all the way around there, so you walked up through the fields and right, it was a proper lover’s walk, everybody went up through Llandaff fields and walked on up into the old Llandaff, you know, and came back around the other way. So, it was very nice to go up there and walk around, with the river and everything running, it was lovely. You could sort of, you could forget the war for half an hour because of the situation and that, that you were in
CB: And you were outside the town?
EB: Oh, yes, this is it
CB: Did they, did they, erm, munitions work, works at Llantrisant, did that get bombed?
EB: A part did, yes, and I was lucky, funny enough that night, that had happened before because I was, this time was cycling on our bikes to work, me and a friend, and just as we got to the end of the road, I heard somebody shout my name, and it was Ron come home. I was going on night shift, Ron had come home on an unexpected weekend and so I said to Joyce, tell them that I’ll try and come in at eleven o’clock, but if I can’t, will you just tell them what’s happened, Ron’s come home, but of course you couldn’t have time off, so I knew I’d get away with a one night but I’d have to go in the next night. And, he came home and it was only for two days and was all he managed to get away, and that night, well, I would have been on shift there, one of it, it was one of our own guns actually, they were firing at them going over, when a shell, came back and went through our own roof and there was six of the people killed, and all of the vices, I used to have six girls along there, because I wasn’t there, they had to go over, like a group and of course he was managing both of them, Charlie, so he moved them over there, but all along there was shrapnel and everything else, so was er, when you think about it, him coming home on leave, he really saved all of us that were along there
CB: Saved your life
EB: Yes, yes, there were one or two that were, well, there, I think there was six killed altogether that night, and one was sad because the father had come over from A shop to see if his daughter was alright in B shop and while he was talking to her, him and the daughter were both killed, but she was on the barrels of the guns, yes, and they were six killed, there was six there altogether killed, so that was, when you think about it, him coming home had saved all that lot there, we would have all got it
CB: Amazing
EB: Yes
CB: Where else, where else in Cardiff was there bombing?
EB: Oh, there was at Canton and all around where we were, into Roath, and as we say into Llandaff, all the way round, there were odd roads and one on the way down to Grangetown and that was very bad, we used to cycle down towards [unclear] which was the cake place where I worked, and there they had one, and it sort of wiped the street out there, and I can remember going down and saying to one of the men that was working there, the ARP men, and I said can we help, and he said no go to work and get the bread on, we all need bread [unclear] but you could see where people were trying to get out of shelters and they were getting them out, I’ve never forgot that. I could see one lady’s hand and she had rings on her hand, I’ve never forgot that, I always picture that one hand, gripping on over the top, so she was trying to get out and people were trying to clear all from around her
CB: What about the docks, were they bombed as well?
EB: Cardiff docks got quite a few lots around, as Ron explained to me because there was so many bombs that had gone around the outside, and he said that Cardiff was like a basin because its surrounded with mountains and that, and here at the counties, and he said, what happens when a bomb is dropped, it drops down but gets lifted again as its going and consequently, because of the way we work, the draw would be, a lot of them went into the country and that around, you know, well, a lot of people’s houses and that, but not a lot of the very big important businesses, railways and things like that we had trouble on, villages outside, but we didn’t suffer half as bad as across the water, Swansea and all that way. Of course, at Port Talbot we had the oil works as well, they, they kept them blazing for about a fortnight, every night, and we were the other side of the channel and yet we could see the whole of the thing. Well, that gave them lights to keep trying to bomb the docks with the ships in, you see, and a lot of ships did get affected, but more outside with all the food things and that one
CB: Erm, how much did you know about what Ron did in the aeroplane?
EB: Not really very much except because we were told we couldn’t talk about our jobs, we were told, obviously because it was a government job, and he didn’t talk much about his. He used to say, you know, mainly, well, we are just glad to be home, we don’t want to talk about what’s gone on, just wait and see when it’s over, but he never, ever, discussed what his, I knew that he was an engineer because we laughed about it. Our wedding lines we were both down as fitters, on the wedding lines, [laughs] on the marriage lines, so I said we would be able to open up a trade afterwards [laughs] so I knew he was a flight engineer, we’d be able to take up cars together, because he used to work in a garage before he joined up, when at first, he joined, so, he just decided he’d go in there. So, it would have been something to look forward to, to see who could do the best bit of filing, wouldn’t it, you know
CB: So, he joined up, first of June nineteen forty, was it?
EB: First of June first of June nineteen thirty-nine
CB: Right
EB: Joined up, joined up before the war
CB: Yeh, okay, right, so, how well did you know any of the crew of his aircraft?
EB: I didn’t, I didn’t know any of the crew whatsoever, I never met any of them and never talked about them either. He used to say when he came home, let’s just talk about the life we want together afterwards, I want to forget a little bit of what I’ve seen
CB: Yeh, okay
EB: The only thing he used to say was, one thing he always said about coming home and this is what I like about the monumental building, I think a lot of the soldiers or sailors, oh, airmen, they would say the same thing, but he used to say, when he went out on the trip, you’d be up high and the clouds would be white, when you got up there those times, which wasn’t often, he said, you’d see the white clouds and you’d think how peaceful it was and how lovely it would be to get out when you think about what was going on down below. But, he said, when you were coming back home, you’d be looking for a break in the clouds with a bit of green grass and the minute you saw the green grass, you’d see the river and the channel and then you would see the white cliffs, if it was light enough, but if not, he said, it was the green grass that was important to you, and you knew when you’d seen the grass you were home. And he said, then [emphasis] you would look for the cathedral because if it was a dull night or something, you knew from there what position, there were so many airfields around, you knew where you were going from there. So, I did have a painting done and this lady in France got it, and it was painted by someone whose father, he wasn’t an artist, his father was also in the air force, and erm, he painted it and he called it, ‘coming home’, but he asked me all what Ron thought and he painted it exactly like that, and he put the number of the plane, so the plane was facing coming in and it was done with the clouds and a little bit of green grass and that, it was lovely, but that lady’s got that now, you know
CB: Lovely
EB: It was lovely
CB: Now, you weren’t, neither of you was allowed to talk about your job
EB: No
CB: But, did, never the less did the conversation turn to what it was like for the people at the other end experiencing the bombing?
EB: Well, the only thing that he ever said was, that you thought about the people that you were going out to do a job and you could not think too far, you knew you had to do it because of him, Hitler, but you often wondered, yes, they’re over here and they’re killing ours, but he said, you always had to keep your mind above the fact, I hope I don’t kill innocent people, but he said, you knew you couldn’t say where it was going, he said, all he knew was he had to do it because Hitler had to be stopped, and that was, he’d never talk about the people with him, they only time he would say, ‘I wonder if so and so got home from leave on time, because I think there was one, who must have come from further away, he would miss his train or something, but he never talked, I hope he got home, and I can’t think what his name was now, I think it was Robert or Bob or Robert, but something like that, but I don’t know, I think he was from London way and he was always worried about his folk, because of being so much nearer to the big ones. But when we used to hear it like in Swansea, Liverpool, they had it so bad that you felt you were thankful that you were not getting it as bad as it was, we were not as bad as other people, you know, you had to be thankful that way
CB: Your talking about the bombing raids by the Germans?
EB: Yes, yes, that right, so we were thankful that way, but apart from that, you know, you couldn’t do anything other than carry on everyday doing the job that you were doing and trying to keep safe. Clothes were another problem because everything was on coupons, food was another one, but we were lucky, Dad kept chickens, we grew a lot of veg, we had quite a big garden, so we were, and then he got an allotment as well at Llandaff fields. So, he would grow the food, but my mother was one, she’d go up with a basket and we would get things, and by the time she got home there wasn’t enough left for us and we’d have to go back. She’s given it away to everybody [laughs] who didn’t have any on the way [laughs] Dad used to say I’m not going to tell her when I get the next allotment because every time I go up there, there’s never anything left, your Mother’s been up and picked it all [laughs]but, erm, it was lovely
CB: So, what was the effects on your parents and Ron’s parents of the war?
EB: Oh, well, it was devastating, because obviously Ron was there, that was his Dad, Tom Jones, his Dad, Emma Jones was his Mother, and his Mother had been married before and had family, but there was only a daughter that had been born besides, but she had died when she was about twenty-one, she’d been ill from a child I believe, so she had died from when she was, you know, about twenty-one and there was only Ron, so obviously, he was the light of their eyes. The others were a lot older and they had families that were married. But, erm, well you couldn’t say, we were just all tried to live every day, but we really just existed. We just kept wishing and hoping and thinking, they’re wrong, they’re wrong, I know you’re wrong and that’s it, and you tried to get by with this. What I did then, Ron’s, ‘cos, when I went into the ATS, I was stationed at Ilfracombe first of all, and from Ilfracombe I got moved over to North Mimms, but while I was there, Ron’s step brother had, he had been demobbed, but he was working in Exeter, so of course when I was going to Ilfracombe, I would see him, I had to change trains there, and at the time, his wife was living with her sister and they’d just had their first baby, Janice, who I keep in touch with now, in fact she went to Cardiff castle because they’d given Ron a patch in Cardiff castle and that was lovely. I couldn’t go, so Janice went down for me, I have got photographs of that as well. And, erm, so consequently, I said well, if they wanted I would move out and go home to my parents, and perhaps, you know, leave Sid and Win go there, so that’s what we done. And, then, eventually Ron’s dad died, well I was out in Germany, so I lost, I wasn’t visiting or anything then, I obviously couldn’t, I kept in touch though. Then, Sid and Win managed to get a house elsewhere and took Ron’s mum with them
CB: Right
EB: But they funnily enough went out to live in Llantrisant
CB: Oh, right
EB: Because the war then of course
CB: Was over
EB: Come down towards the end as well, so she went out to live with them there, but when I used to go home I used to go down and visit her, you know
CB: Can I just go back please to when Ron was posted missing?
EB: Yes
CB: Because, casualties were effecting all manner of society
EB: That’s right
CB: So, I just wondered, after you got the telegram, I wonder if you could just talk us through, what happened after that, how you felt about it and whether you linked with other people who had a loss?
EB: Well, I think you become so numb, you are in a world of your own, and, all we did, could do is just sit there and saying it can’t have happened. I’d be sat this side of the table; his Mum would be sat there and his Dad would be sat by the fire and sat in the armchair. He used to smoke a pipe and he would just sit there and he would say, ‘that lad’ll do it, I know my lad’ll do it, he’ll get home’, and we were convinced he would, there would be a way that he would get home, because he promised he’d come home, and I think that’s what kept us going. But it altered our lives completely, there was no funny laughter, nothing like that, you know joking, you sort of just existed every day, you couldn’t do anything else about it and that’s just how you went on every day. His Dad went to work and he used to work down, where sailors would come in, ‘cos they’d been, where their ship had been hit and would want all re-kitting out and that’s where he worked down, down Cardiff docks where all that where the sailors got kitted out. So, we used to hear more news about what had happened through his Dad than anything else because newspapers and that, they were regular, you’d get so much news, not that much, but as far as us our lives as went, we just existed, that’s all I can say. It was sort of, well its shopping day today, or it was something else day today, but there was no laughter or anything. You just felt you couldn’t pick up the pieces and go on, you just sort of lived day for day and hope for the best
CB: Was, was there a, in a way an acceptance of his death, or was there always the hope, expectation that he’d come back?
EB: There was always the hope, you always hoped, we always hoped until we got that news from Geneva saying that the plane had come down, but they said it was down in the south of France and they were in a temporary grave but they could not tell us any more than that
CB: And, did they name the survivor, did they give you the name of the survivor?
EB: No, they didn’t give us the name
CB: So, you never knew?
EB: yes, we found out eventually
CB: Oh, you did?
EB: But not until, when did we first find out about that now? No, it was a French man, when I found out and where they, where the graves were, went over to er, I’m trying to think how I first got a, [unclear] my minds gone now
CB: We’ll have a break now shall we just for a moment?
EB: Yes, that would be good
CB: Thank you very much, because what I’d like to do is go ahead to where you joined the army
EB: Yes, yes
CB: But, let’s just have a breather
EB: Yes, that’s fair enough, yes
CB: Thank you [inaudible]
[recording paused]
CB: So, we’re restarting now and the question really is, er, we’re going fast forward many years
EB: Yes
CB: Before you actually knew anything about Ron’s fate
EB: That’s right
CB: So, he died in April forty four
EB: Hmm
CB: How many years ahead before you knew, and how did you find out?
EB: Not until nineteen eighty-eight
CB: Forty-four years later?
[clock chiming]
EB: Yes, forty-four years later that erm, in the, I had remarried in forty eight and had gone to live then in Cheshire and my sister was coming up, I had, I’d had four children, unfortunately I lost my one son, he was in a [unclear] car, got killed, and my sister came up one holiday and she said, this is in now eighty eight, and she said I’ve bought a paper up Bet, Ray said, Ray was her husband, Ray said I shouldn’t do it. Well, my second husband had also died, he died in nineteen eighty four, and so she said, I said, yes you’d like to know, and I’m convinced it is Ron, and she’d found in the paper, of the Cardiff post, and it was erm, saying that they were looking for the crew, looking for relatives of the crew and they put the names down and she knew, ‘cos loads of Joneses, that his number started six one six, he was six one six two one two, and or, six four six, I should say, and she remembered the first bit, so she said, I am going to tell Bet, and Ray said not to bother, because he thought at first it was opening up old wounds. But she said, I want to know if I was you, so she bought it. And, it was asking, a gentleman Mr Gardiner, and his brother, was also a member of the crew, and he had, the year before, found out where it was and gone over, and he’d met a lady, who I believe she was really an Irish girl, but I don’t know whether she was with the RAF or what, but she was over in France and she’d married a French man, eventually, but her name was Madame [unclear] and she had asked him to try and find this crew, because she knew all about it and where the graves were and everything, and she was doing it with quite a few of the crews. Anyway, I got in touch with him, he put this piece in, please get in touch with me if you know anybody at all, so, I got in touch with him and arranged with him, he got in touch with me and Madame [unclear] and we made arrangements for the following year, we would go over, and he was trying to find the other crews. Well, of course, I found where a lot of them lived, so I told him, and he said, actually, through one of the papers he found a few as well, but erm, eventually, in the following year there was about four of us from different families but we hadn’t all met, but different ones had come, so some were too old they couldn’t, their parents were too old, so they didn’t come, but we went over and met Madame [unclear] and it was through her that we found out that they had been in this temporary grave, and they had been moved to the big, when they moved it with the French military, that they were buried near, they moved them to a big cemetery at [unclear] and erm, they moved thirty, there were thirty airmen altogether, are buried there and it is really a beautiful spot, they really look after them well. We have a spot with these thirty, there’s another lot, there’s Jews in, there’s another lot, there’s others in, and there’s quite a lot of history in the whole of the cemetery. But this lady arranged it, booked up our hotel for us, we paid obviously, couldn’t expect her, but she booked up for all of us, actually, I’ve got a photograph of her where we got up out of the taxi’s and she was waiting there with other people, and there was a gentleman from Birmingham, Mr Reid, and because I used to go on my own then, there was nobody else then, the first year I took my granddaughter with me, young Debbie and she was about sixteen I think, sixteen, seventeen, she came the first year with me. And, erm, after that, I always, I never was one for going anywhere on my tod, so I used to go but I used to meet Mr Reid, either in London or [unclear] husband used to take me down, Sandra’s husband would take me when I was up their way, and I’d get to London or I’d get down to going on the boat over, I’d go different ways, and Mr Reid would meet me either London, or he would meet me when I got off the boat and take me down to Lyon where everybody met them. And, consequently, I met this lovely lady and she was working her socks off, if I can put it that way, to get every crew that they could together, and so, we all went for this meal, oh, it was a lovely restaurant, it was at the top of a mountain somewhere, and erm, from there on I kept in touch with her and went every year. Some of the families managed to come for the odd years, and Gwen did, Olsen’s wife, she came regularly until she couldn’t cope, she was older than me, I think she was six or seven years older than me, and she couldn’t travel after a while. Her son came once or twice, but then he had a heart attack on the plane going home one time, so, he didn’t come anymore. So, I don’t know what’s happened down the line there at all
CB: So, just going back to nineteen ninety-eight, eighty-eight when this process started, how did you feel about what had happened then, ‘cos you waited forty-four years, so, how did you feel then?
EB: Well, it was the sensation of thinking I was going to have some contact and I would hear more about what had happened and that was wonderful. And, of course, as I say, they arranged for us to go to the cemetery as well, so we went up to the cemetery and that was very, very moving, and we managed to get some flowers, we didn’t have any crosses or anything then, erm, so we got some flowers [unclear] six of the crew are buried, and there’s just one in front and then there’s four and then there’s one behind, they are buried that way, the six of them. And, we go regularly every year, but when we first went it was very, very emotional, well both my granddaughters were, but the headstones and that was all kept beautiful, but just to read that
CB: Did you feel some, have some feeling of closure?
[pause]
[interview paused]
CB: So, we are restarting now talking about people who have been so kind
EB: Yes
CB: In terms of the links abroad, and you’ve talked about the RAFA in both the Swiss part and Lyon
EB: Yes, yes, Mr Reid, he used to come from, he lived outside Birmingham and he used to come every year as well and he always
CB: This is visiting in France?
EB: Make sure I was back on the train or whatever, or whichever
CB: Yes
EB: Way I travelled, whether it was by bus or what it was, or if it was on the boat, but also the people there, and then, there was another couple, Mr and Mrs [unclear] and Peter Cobb they have a chateau there, and in the end, they said, don’t book up in a hotel come and stay with us
CB: Right
EB: And go and stay, they would meet me in the airport, take me back, and I still keep in touch with her
[inaudible]
CB: Right, yes
EB: I still keep in touch with her and she’s, she’s living now in Gloucester way, because her daughter brought her back to England, but Mr Jean [unclear] he found out all about the one that got out
CB: Yes, yes, oh he did?
EB: Yes, got all his letters
CB: And his name and everything?
EB: Yes, he found out
CB: But, you’ve never met him?
EB: A letter that he sent him, he sent me part of that, so I’ve heard what his idea was, and the way he spoke, he said in the letter that Jean [unclear] sent me a copy of, but he had said about the plane, he said they had a few complications when they left, but he didn’t mean that they hit the ground they could work it out, and they worked it out between the pilots, the erm, engineer and somebody else on the plane, don’t know who else it was. But, three of them had decided yes, they could work the system out whatever it was on
CB: Wireless operator
EB: The plane that wasn’t working properly, and so, he said all about the raid, what had happened, he said that all of a sudden, they had been hit, and it was on fire, and he saw all the curtain where Ron, the pilot, and is it the bomb aimer? Or somebody else?
CB: The curtain, the navigator would have been behind the curtain
EB: Yes, the navigator, sitting in the front, he saw the curtain was on fire between them, and he reached, he can remember reaching down for his parachute, he said, they all wore their straps automatically, he can remember doing up one strap, he don’t remember doing up the other, but he remembered, he knew he’d been hit in his arm, and he thought his arm was off in his sleeve, erm, the next thing he thought he must be out in fresh air, the air was different, he doesn’t know how he’s got out of the plane, but he eventually landed and he knew he’d landed when he felt this thump, he got, he managed to get his shoe bits off, you know they take the tops of their long boots off, but he couldn’t bury it, he tried to bury his parachute the best he could. And then, somebody came along, a man came along on a bike and he said he spoke to him in the best French he could, erm, he needed help and he was an Englishman so, prefer to have a doctor that would help him, and the man just said, ‘oui, oui’, and drove off, and he walked down further and he could see a cottage lit up and he went to that cottage. And, the lady there was Mrs [unclear], I think her name was, and it, the whole story is down in there, you can always have that, but I’m cutting bits down, but they got a doctor to him, and erm, he said, you will have to go to hospital, but what the story was further down, while he was in there, a nurse was going to try and get him out afterwards. But, apparently, while he was having the operation he spoke English and he had a German [laughs] specialist, what’s the name, doing him, so he was made prisoner of war, and he was moved from one hospital then, to another one and further up to Paris, and from there he was supposed to be getting moved to be a prisoner, but while they were there, information had come in that the Americans and the British were getting near, and so the Germans just took off and left them in there, and it was on the, I say, you know the ones that are local helping
CB: The Maquis
EB: Yeh, they all came in and they looked after them and moved them to somewhere else for safety until the Americans had come, and that was how er, John, er [pause]
CB: You’ve forgotten his name, it doesn’t matter we’ll look it up
EB: The other one, the one that got out the plane, he escaped, that’s how he got out, so that was his story of what had happened with the plane. He said he thought, he’d heard a thud and thought a big bang, but erm, the farmer was telling us that all the fishpond was all alight because the petrol had gone everywhere, but the gun, that had gone through the roof of another couple, her parents, and you can see, it’s only a little place down there, there’s just two little farm things there, another one that was the granny’s, they used that, but that was all that’s down there, and he said the machine gun went through the kitchen roof and it was still going. Well, he went out to the [unclear] [laughs] speak English, he went out to the barn and he came in and he got this sash of bullets around him, and we said to him, they are live, take it off, and he goes ‘oui’, and the man that was with us said, ‘they really will, it’s not safe, they are live, not dead, go boom, go boom’, and he was still walking around with this on, anyway, he took it off [laughs] after and hung it up afterwards, but he’d kept it all those years
CB: Amazing
EB: The farm, where it had come down, of Maurice and his sister Odile, she was only four at the time, he was fifteen and actually found out years later that when the pilot, as the plane came down, apparently, two of them did manage to get out, but the big bomb was still on board because they were on their way to Munich, that is another story, and there were thirteen planes on their way to Munich, but only twelve got there, so the other one was the one that Ron was in, and he said that [pause] er, the one that Ron was in, he said that, the farmer said that when the plane came down, er, these people had got out when the big bomb that was on it, it was very, very big, it exploded, and he said, they weren’t hit by that, they were forced into the ground. The front part of the plane went in a field way up that way and the rear one went that way, and they were all still sitting in their seats, although obviously injured and they were, they were, he said, already dead, so he said, they weren’t suffering that way
CB: No
EB: He could tell us that much about it, and then they tried to get, they got them out, tried to get them out, the Germans didn’t want to leave them, touch them in anyway, they told them to leave them, not to bother with them. But, found out years later that Maurice, his parents were hiding in him in a barn because the Germans were taking all the young ones away to Germany to do slave labour for them, so his parents used to hide him by day in the barn, and at night they’d take him in, give him a good meal, wash and clean clothes again. And, this night, he said, that he was out, he thought his Dad was going with, going around with a horse, and around like the farm, and he’d gone over to help with his Dad as well, but he said, that the pilot, he had his head in his arms when he died, he’d gone to try and help him. Now, he never told anybody that, it was only a few years before he died, that he mentioned it. So, we’re hearing stories all the time still of what went on, but another lady approached me, I think she said her name was Sylvie and her daughter was getting married the next day, it happened on a Friday, and her daughter was getting married the next day, and she said they had been to the woods to pick flowers, and they got a lot of white flowers, but they had taken the men and put them in the village hall and they had put the flowers all around the men, and the Germans came the next day and took them, that was the story this lady said. I believe, I’ve got two books, one that John [unclear] wrote all in French, one that Sylvie has wrote, it’s in French and English, but her accounts are slightly different to John [unclear] and its different to what, she thought the plane had got, went to bomb Paris, why she thought that I don’t know?, in her book, but I think she’s got confused with the fact they might have got hit going over Paris, you know, that why she has heard other stories from other people, but all the time you keep meeting people. This year fifty-three came over from France down to our place there and erm, some of them have never been to England before and they were still telling you bits of stories that they could remember or what their parents had told them, it’s fantastic isn’t it? But, they really do think the world and they look after the graves, they’re beautiful and our men are real heroes, and as they said, but for them, the Germans would have been with us and we will always respect and care for all your airmen that are here, the soldiers, everybody, that but for them we would not be freed. And, it is lovely to be there amongst them, they make, you’d think that when you go they are so excited, and I only wish there were more people here that could go or make the effort to go, I’ve spoken to some people and they go, well no, I’ve been and visited once and I can’t see any sense in going again, but to me that’s wrong, erm, I mean, if you can go, you go because its contact isn’t it, and I said, well I was just so sad I couldn’t go last year, it was seventy five years, but I’m determined next year, I hope my daughters listening there, I am going to get there next year, by hook or crook even if I am in my wheelchair [laughs]
CB: I’m going to stop you there just for a moment
[unknown inaudible]
CB: So, Betty we had the situation where after the war people were coming back, and erm, how did you feel about that and how did you then come to join the army?
EB: Well
CB: And what did you do?
EB: When people were coming back I was so glad for them because they were going to make a new life, it was going to be a hard life because there was still rations and everything, children didn’t know their Dads, they were terrified of them, I had one friend who had a little boy obviously he had been born after his Dad, his Dad had been sent abroad, he’d never seen him, and she naturally had the baby in bed with her at night and the little girl, but the little girl she was alright and she got older and went into her bed, but the little boy was screaming, he didn’t want to know that man, he wasn’t his daddy, his daddy was a picture and that was all he knew, his daddy was a picture, and the man that came home at the end of the war was nothing like it, and so they did have terrible trouble and there was a lot of children like that but they had been used to having no Dad the year round and they couldn’t get used to the fact that somebody else was in my Mummy’s bed, and that was one of the main things that went on. And then, I just couldn’t settle, I was watching all these people coming in, and I thought, I just can’t stay here and watch anymore, I’ve just got to do something, I’ve got to move and I want to find out where Ron is. I was convinced I would find, still find somebody, that he’d lost his senses, his brain wasn’t working properly, that anything could have happened, he could have had a blow, I was sure I’d see him one day, every time I’d seem somebody in uniform walking around, I would, it was ridiculous really because you knew it couldn’t be, but you still tried to find them. But, erm, then I went into town one day to see a friend that had come to visit me, get her bus back home which I did to anybody that came, so we went into Cardiff town, and as we erm, her bus was late coming, so consequently, I lost my bus to take me back to Roath where I was then living, the other side of Cardiff, because her bus being late, mine had come on time and I’d missed it. While I was stood there I just wondered what I was going to do with my life, I had to do something but I did not want to make, could not make my mind up about what I did want, and as I turned round, I was stood by a shop that was advertising,’ your country needs you, we need you’, and it was obviously a statue of a soldier in the window with just a big notice saying you know, ‘Join the Army’, so I went in and joined the ATS, and that was the start of a new life for me. I then went and after having medicals and that at Cardiff Barracks, I was then posted down to, I’ve forgotten, down to Ilfracombe and I was down there for quite a while and eventually went up to North Mimms. I was with the Royal Armoury Pay Corps, or as we called ourselves, ‘the rubber and pencil company’, and er, went up to North Mimms, while I was waiting to be posted, I’d been told I was going to Germany, and I thought of all the places to go, all I wanted to do was to get to France, for at least I might be a bit nearer to Ron and so that’s what I did, went off to join the army and I went with the, erm, in the forces there, in the offices, well, it was all, it was an old German hospital that had been bombed and they’d taken that over
CB: Whereabouts was that?
EB: That was just outside of Hamburg. Hamburg was our main depot and we were in a village way outside [pause]
CB: And, what were you doing there?
EB: There, I was on clerical, I had been with the office, it was all to do with people’s money, Pay Corp, er, at one time I was dealing with people at the stations in another country so I was changing different money sometimes, forget what they were now
[Unknown inaudible]
CB: Okay
EB: You had to change the money over from one thing to another, so, it was one and six, I remember, it was worth one and six against the pound, Rupees and Annas, that was it, Rupees and Annas and we used to have to change their money for the troops that were in this other country. And then, I got moved up to another department that was to do with officers postings, this and that sort of thing, and I stayed there for, I came out the Army in, I think it was erm, forty-seven, forty-seven and my father was very ill at home, and they sent for me in the middle of the night to go back home, so consequently that’s what I did, I had nearly two years out there and consequently, I came back home and Dad was very ill, and because of Mum’s situation, she used to have a lot of strokes, erm, the air force, the army let me off. I didn’t go back because they said I could stay in the country, I would have had to travel back which used to take three days then because you went down from London and you had to go over to Belgium or Holland, one of those, on a boat, and then you went down further and then travelled right the way up through to Hamburg and from Hamburg there, it’s the best part of three days by the time you’d finished going to one lot of things or the other, as one was on the boat, you sailed at night, and anyway they said, I could go to Cardiff Barracks and er, just finish there. Well, I went there and they sent me on to another station in England, and said I had a week to go and they just said, well, [laughs] find yourself something to do and then report back in here and you can get [unclear] you know, just get off from here, which I did do but, the funny thing is that in nineteen fifty two, not long after I’d had my second baby, I got a letter from them, all of which is down the way, I haven’t got much of my stuff on me here, all I, it just said, from nineteen fifty two you are now free, my time was up with the army, so I didn’t know what had happened, I had no proof of saying that I had gone to Aldershot and got to be [unclear]
CB: Discharged
EB: Yeh
CB: Where did you meet Bert?
EB: When did I, ooh
CB: When and where?
EB: When and where, well while I was stationed in Germany, the first time, to be honest, the first time I set eyes on him, we were on the train from, going to Hamburg, when the train was stopped by some erm, what’s them soldiers? What do you call them?
CB: The military police
EB: Yes, the military police, and erm, they wanted to put these four soldiers on the train with us all, so apparently it was all agreed in the end, they would in another compartment further down, and then one of them came around saying had we got anything to eat. It turned out, they’d gone for a holiday up the mountains and when they come to go down, the trains had been stopped because of the weather, so they were reported missing from camp, and as they got off the train, when they did get down, they were put under guard and they were put on our train. Well, we’d been given these, ooh horrible sandwiches, sardines and cheese, I don’t know how many years old, so we said, [laughs] ‘we’ve got some food if you’d like it’, you know, so we just passed all the food over to them, [laughs] he took it back to the other coach for them, well, that was the first time that I had set eyes on him, of course then, they were put on jankers, and er, they were in camp I think for ten days. Well, the only times I ever saw him after that was, we had to have somebody with us if we were going out, well, we only went on a bus down to the main part in Hamburg, which was a very big place, you could go and sit and write letters, you could go and play games in different rooms and things like that. And, dancing, well apparently, he used to, he, there’d be about three men in charge of all of us on the bus, they used to send a bus up and there’d be about three men they were responsible for those same ones to get back on the bus at night. But, you were all inside of this big club, and erm, just got back on the buses and they had to make sure everybody on, and I think about three or four times I saw him on duty doing that, and then the next time was, I think everybody was going off on a boat trip up the Rhine and he was on that one, and I was sat talking to him then for a while, but after that I never see much of him, I didn’t even know that he was demobbed because I worked in officers department and he worked in other ranks, so didn’t see them very often at all and it was only a girl on the camp, Win Jones, she came up and she said, ‘I’m supposed to be picking up Bert Bascombe’s photograph them [unclear] hand, because they weren’t ready when he was demobbed’, so she said, ‘but I’ve been moved over now and I’ve got to go from here and I’m being transported off elsewhere, so will you get them?’ I said, ‘not really, I don’t really want to be bothered’, so she said, she couldn’t find anybody who would do it, so I said, ‘oh okay then I’ll do it’. So, of course, I did it, I got these photographs sent to him, told him all about his other friends in other ranks and that, and erm, then he wrote back and thanked me very much, and was so and so there, and who else was there, and eventually I wrote back again, and of course I then got sent to go on because of Dad. So, when I was home after all the worry of Dad was over, I thought I had better write and tell that lad that he’s not going to get anymore letters from there, because I’m not there, so I can’t give him any more information, and I did that and he wrote back about a fortnight, two weeks later saying that he was very sorry that he’d not wrote before, what have you, and then later on, erm, I just wrote back and said, yes Dad’s okay now but I’ve got myself demobbed and still at home with my parents so I won’t be able to give you any more information. He wrote back and said, well, can I still go on writing to you? So, yes, if you want to, and then he wrote again and asked if he could come down to Cardiff, and er, because he'd got time off work, he’d gone back to his old job which was clerical in Liverpool, and he’d gone back there, so my Mother said, ‘well, you may as well, we’ve got another room here if he wants to come down for the odd day’, so he did and came down for that, and then, I think that was back in the August, don’t ask me exactly when, and then his parents invited me back up there at the Christmas time, and I went up, and that was sort of the start of then getting a bit serious sort of thing, but I explained to him, I said, ‘well, Ron’s been my love always’, and, because he wanted to go serious, I said, I hadn’t intended going serious, but when you think we’ve never even had a date [laughs] when you think about it, just writing letters and erm, I said, well, I only know about you, what you’ve told me but I‘ve got to tell you I said, ‘Ron’s been the love of my life, he always will be’, and I said, ‘if I did marry somebody else I could never put you in front of him ever’, you never forget your first love
CB: No, exactly
EB: But you can make another life. Anyway, he said, no, he could understand because he’d been on the beaches which we didn’t know then, it was Gold Beach, and believe me there were problems from that, which we didn’t know what it was back then, but erm
CB: On D-Day?
EB: Yes, but anyway he, what’s a name, he said yes that it would be great that he would like for us to get married, so, we did, we went ahead on the understanding I said, that you’ve got to understand I really cannot, I love you but in an entirely different way it’s a grown-up way and I am a different person. I am not the person who used to be in any way, I’m entirely different, and I suppose you got older as well
CB: Yeh
EB: But, erm, I said, it’s not the romantic, stars in the sky, sort of thing, it’s a down to earth know that we can get on well together. You can make another life and make another life, we were happy, but it was with your feet on the ground
CB: Yeh. I can believe it
EB: You know, it was one of those and we had four lovely children, which was great. We had a wonderful life together and then he never wanted to do things though, or anything because we found this was all to do with him being on Gold Beach afterwards, that was another story, yes, erm, and then he got emphysema very badly, he lost one of his lungs, smoking, and because a man had started him off in the trenches, they were stuck in the trenches, and he [unclear] smoking, and I said, effected his lungs, he was more in and out of hospital all the time, and eventually, he was bedridden altogether, he walked around with a big bottle of oxygen, didn’t he Gay? They remember as children, he didn’t have a life, their Dad couldn’t play with them or anything like that, but he was good, wasn’t he?
GM: Yes, yes
EB: He was a good Dad
GM: We had a, we were happy
EB: We were a happy family, we did, it was a down to earth, there was no roses round the doors, we both thought the world of each other, but it was plain talking, it was lovely and erm, so of course, that was our life together and eventually he died in nineteen forty-eight, I get the dates mixed up
CB: Eighty-four
EB: Nineteen eighty-four, I get it the wrong way around, eighty-four not forty-eight
CB: I think at that stage, we’ll have a break and thank you very much indeed for what you have done
EB: Okay, well, I hope it, you might have to cut a lot of it out.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Betty Bascombe
Format
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01:20:11 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ABascombeEJ151001
Creator
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Chris Brockbank
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2015-01-01
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Pending review
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Description
An account of the resource
Betty grew up in Cardiff and worked in the Royal Ordinance factory. Her first husband, Ron joined the Royal Air Force as a flight engineer. She talks about receiving the telegram, stating that Ron was missing and later finding out that he had been killed and was buried in France. She joined the Auxiliary Territorial Service and worked in Hamburg, where she met her second husband Bert. She talks in detail about how she found out details of her first husband’s death, forty-four years later and her journeys to his burial place in Lyon and the kindness of people who helped her.
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
British Army
Spatial Coverage
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France
Germany
Great Britain
France--Lyon
Germany--Hamburg
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
aircrew
bombing
final resting place
flight engineer
home front
killed in action
memorial
missing in action
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/177/2340/ABattyPH161014.1.mp3
5c4ac0fc187b4591d3ca4948980d7baf
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Batty, Philip
Phil Batty
P Batty
Description
An account of the resource
19 Items. The collection consists of one oral history interview with Philip Batty (b. 1925). He discusses the death of his older brother Dennis early in the Second World War, his wartime service with 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate as a wireless operator/ air gunner, and his long post war career. The collection also includes a number of group photographs of airmen after training, photographs of aircraft in southern Africa, his log book and propaganda material.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
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2016-10-14
Identifier
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Batty, P
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
CH: Right, this interview is taking place at Phil Batty’s home in Wellingore, Lincolnshire on the 14th of October 2016, it’s being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. The interviewer is Cathie Hewitt, also present are Guilia Sanzone, Ann Batty and Chris Aram. Okay Phil, if you’d like to give me this information of your date and place of birth and your early childhood.
PB: Right, well, I was born on the 7th of March 1925, at a small village in Yorkshire. Er, my parents, my father was, actually in the Flying Corps in World War One, and he, he stayed in after the war and married my mother in 1918, but mother didn’t care for the Air Force, they were stationed at Castle Bromwich, and father decided that they would leave and he got himself a job as a draughtsman at Rolls Royce in Derby, but unfortunately came the depression and he was laid off, the only job that he could find was in the mines up in Yorkshire, which is where we went, but mother hated that even more, she was determined that we were not going to stay there [laughs] and er, we emigrated back to the West Midlands where father got a job with Walsall Town Council as a roads foreman, and, that’s where I was brought up and educated, at Elmore Green Central School. Mother didn’t care for that either [laughs] I went to sit the entrance examination for I think it was the King Edward Grammar School in Birmingham, I passed it but unfortunately Walsall refused to pay the fees. So, I was stuck in Walsall and went to Elmore Green for my secondary education. I was quite happy there, and, I stayed there until of course war broke out in 1939 when I was fourteen, I was just about to leave school anyway, I’d got a job at the town council myself in the transport department as a clerk, and, there I sat, waiting for things to happen. My brother Dennis, of course was a fully qualified wireless operator air gunner [indistinct], he was with 226 Squadron and once the army got themselves organised they all deployed over to France as the advanced air striking force with the British Expeditionary Force. They were equipped with Fairey Battles, a single engine light bomber, utterly unequipped to face the Luftwaffe, but there they are, and there we sat and waited. Dug a big hole in the back garden, built ourselves an Anderson shelter [laughs] and that sort of thing and waited for the real war to start, which eventually, it did, with a bang, crash, wallop, and, er, Dennis came home when the army retreated, they suffered horrendous losses. He kept a little diary while he was in France of his — of his friends who didn’t come back, because the Messerschmitts knocked them out of the sky like fly swatting really, er, but he came home eventually with his kit bag full of champagne and [laughs] and stayed with us for about a week and then went back, and his squadron reformed with Blenheims and were based at Wattisham, and there they started to bomb the Channel ports where the Germans were then assembling an invasion fleet. It was on bombing, there was bombing raids they went in, inland to bomb an airfield, and they were attacked by some Messerschmitts, the pilot was hit, in the neck, but Dennis shot one Messerschmitt down and that put them off, they left them alone and they got back to base safely and that's where all three of them were awarded the DFM. And, Dennis came home to celebrate. Unfortunately he was posted up to Scotland, I think he was going on the gunnery leaders’ course, but this is a week later and he was killed in a flying accident [pause]. This was my first [pause] real [pause] [cries].
CH: Would you like to take a break?
[interview paused]
CH: Okay?
PB: And er, of course, that’s the last thing my mother wanted [laughs] she said, ‘No, no way, you’ll never pass the medical’, ‘cause I’d had an ear operation, she said, ‘You won’t pass’, [interference] anyway, she said, ‘You’re not going until you’re called up’, and of course eventually I was [laughs]. Passed the medical, went for aircrew, went to Birmingham to the attestation centre, er, which was where they gave you a little exam to make sure you could read and write a little essay and that sort of thing, and, then they did [indistinct] a little test with a little machine keeping a dot in the centre, and they said, ‘Oh, what do you want to be?’, and I said, 'Well I want to be a wireless operator air gunner’, they said, ‘Oh you, no we’re, what about pilot, navigator, you know?'. I said er, ‘Well, how long’s that take?’. He said, ‘Well, you’ll be put on a list and we’ll call you when we want you’, but I said, ‘Will I be quicker being a WOP AG’, he said ‘Yeah a bit’, I said, ‘I’ll have it’ [laughs] and er, that was it then, er, course mother was dead against it, but I said, ‘I’ll be alright’, [emphasis] you know it’s, I hadn’t the faintest idea of course that the losses were mounting for bomber crews at the time but, anyway eventually I got this paper asking me to report to Lords cricket ground, I thought, whatever, funny place for the Air Force, but off I go and they were playing at the time, I think it was the West Indies, I’m not sure, but that’s where you got issued with uniform, numbers, 2220759, ha, ha [laughs] you never forget it [laughs] and er, all the stuff you needed, and put your civilian clothes in a suitcase and send ‘em home, and, we were accommodated in London, in flats at the time being, for a little while, and then put on a train to Bridlington. Bridlington by the sea, yes, and there we were taught to march, yes, and I thought oh God, if this is aircrew, you know, I thought we were going to fly [emphasis] but no, we were marching up and down the promenade and [laughs] and er, learning the Morse code and that sort of thing, signalling by lamp and all the rest of it, and er, we were there for about , I suppose about four to six weeks and then I was posted down to the radio school at Madley to be taught the real skills of being a wireless operator air gunner and, there started the real training really. Er, I was there, I suppose about eight months, passed out, but that was the real jump [indistinct] because when you got your brevet, you got immediate promotion to sergeant, and now this is a big lump, a big jump really, er, and I was posted at the same time over to a place called Staverton, just outside Gloucester. They had a sergeants’ mess, we had sheets [emphasis] on the bed [emphasis] [laughs] fantastic, and we had knives and forks set out in the mess, we thought, you know, we’ve started to live, yeh. Er, the other funny thing was that we were briefed secrecy, you will see an aeroplane here, which you’ve never seen in all your life because it hadn’t got a propeller, it just whistles, and of course it was the jet, the very first, and it did seem very odd I must admit. Er, and we were there for six weeks flying an Anson and that’s where I first met up with my navigator, John, and we flew together for some time, and I think it was when we finished at, there, we went off up north to Dumfries and by God it was cold, [emphasis] we were living in Nissen huts and they were freezing [emphasis] oh, one stove in the middle that everyone tried to huddle round and how it is, but, once again it was just about six weeks, and then we went to, down to the OTU, that was just outside Leicester, where we upgraded to Wellingtons and that’s where we got that leaflet, the operational crews were diverted in one night, and I must admit they all looked clapped out [laughs] very tired, but er, I think that, we went, OTU was where we first started to fly as a crew, we picked up a pilot, a co-pilot, er, I still flew with John Tidmarsh, we’d been flying together then for six, seven months or so, so we de-, decided we’d stick together and the rest of the crew could join us [laughs] which is what we did, as you do, a little band of men. And, we did, I think it was a couple of months on Wellingtons, flying round the countryside practising navigation, bombing, and waiting to march onwards which we did eventually. We were posted to a Lancaster conversion unit, and I think I went to the one just outside Newark, er, it’s in my log book somewhere, and that was the, yes [pause]. Chris’ll find it in there [pause].
CA: Winthorpe.
CH: Winthorpe.
PB: After I, after we’d finished at the, I remember looking at the, where we were, 'cause it had big chimneys at the end of the runway, and I said to the pilot, he's a bloke called Ford, Henry, I said, ‘I hope you can manage to get a Lancaster over the top of those chimneys’, Henry [laughs] ‘they look pretty ominous to me’, he said, ‘Don’t you worry Phil’ [laughs]. Anyway, we passed and eventually 'cause we are coming to right to the end of the war now, and I didn’t, didn’t think we were going to make it before VE Day, we just about did it, we would have done, but not quite. We were posted to a squadron, posted to 50 Squadron at Sturgate and, off we went, and we’d just done the, squadron commander flew with us and pronounced us fit to join his squadron and, but I think it was a week later that we had VE Day, that was it, the war was over. So, we came into the briefing room one morning and saw [unclear] the squadron commander and said ‘Well fellas, well done’, he said, ‘It’s over’, he said, ‘We are now part of the Northern Striking Force', he said, 'Who we’re going to strike I don’t know but that's who we are’, he said, ‘5 Group are going out with Tiger Force to the Far East to fight the Japanese, but we’re staying here, but I’ve got some good news for you’, he said, ‘You can draw some khaki drill’, he said, ‘'Cause we are off to Italy on Monday’, [laughs] he said, ‘What we’re going to do’, he said, he said, ‘We’re going to pick up some prisoners of war up and bring 'em home’, he said, ‘Everyone, yes’, he said, ‘Our [emphasis] prisoners of war [laughs] not theirs’, he says 'We’ll paint twenty circles on the floor’, he said, ‘You put twenty passengers each and off you go’. 'And it’s like an operation, there’ll be sixty or so aeroplanes and some are going to Pomigliano and some to Bari, but we’re going to [unclear]’, he says, ‘Now there’s three things, one, do not try and change your money on the black market, none of that, don’t go down to Naples and get drunk on the local vino, right, and make sure you look after the soldiers [laughs] 'cause they won’t have flown’ [laughs]. But of course they hadn’t, but they were very pleased to jump on board the Lanc, er of course it took a long time, I think it was seven or eight hours trip each way but they didn’t care. Is that what you’re looking at Chris? Yes, they called it Operation Dodge, yes and we did one or two of those and, that was how the — the war virtually ended for me.
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back with you?
PB: Yeah.
CA: I don't think he heard you.
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back on the trips in the Lancasters?
PB: Pardon?
CH: Did you bring many prisoners back from Italy?
PB: Yes, yes, yes, and we landed in the UK at, Polebrook, yes, I don’t know how many times oh, er, eight was it, I don't know. Chris, I think is looking now [unclear]?
CA: Yes, at least eighty.
PB: I did several trips, anyway, yes, I remember that we went to see the ruins of Pompeii, John Tid — Tidmarsh and I, yes. While we were there we thought we might as well, yeah, yes, but, very interesting actually, yes, we did behave ourselves and we did realise that the best things to take out were cigarettes and coffee for trading, and er, we could hand those in and bring back jewellery and that sort of stuff, yes, from the Italians, yes, er, quite enjoyable. Chris is looking now in my logbook, which will be scanned presumably? Yes. The length of the time that the trips took, yeah, quite long, yeah, okay.
CH: What happened after you finished doing these trips bringing the prisoners back?
PB: That was it for the time being, erm, I was posted then to, out to Transport Command for a little while, and then the air force [background noises] in their wisdom thought [?], in their wisdom, sent me out to Southern Rhodesia for two and a half years, er, onto [?] the navigation training school, flying Ansons, where I had a marvellous time [laughs] I really did, I thoroughly enjoyed it, you know, there were no tourists, the game was wonderful, it really was, marvellous place. We went to Victoria Falls and that sort of thing, er, saw the whole of the country at low level 'cause we were flying Ansons, and the navigators for their passing out trip, we took 'em down to Cape Town and back again, and after two and a half years I came home, and I decided to stay in the Air Force and rejoin Bomber Command, and, they’d got Lincolns then, so I was back on the old Lincolns and posted to Wyton and I was waiting there when of course the atom bomb came in, and the old Lincoln, I’m afraid, wasn’t big enough. So we borrowed some B29s from the Americans, the air force called them the Washington, and er, we converted from the Lincoln to the Washington, and that’s where we ended up at, Coningsby er, on the B29 or the Lincoln, and that’s where I was for quite a while until I think that I moved around a bit, on coastal, I think that, I spent a —a little time converting, then I was posted out to Malta and did a tour out there, with my good lady [laughs]. The Cyprus problem blew up — [interruption]
CH: That's —
AB: And, we were doing trips from Malta to Cyprus, once round the island and back, sixteen hours [laughs] rather tiring, so they decided to send us out to Cyprus and, camp on the edge of the airfield instead, so we could do shorter trips. So, we ended up camping on Cyprus for a bit until it was [laughs], time for us to come home, which we did in nineteen, ooh, was that sixty we came home?
AB: I think so.
PB: Yes, something like that, and I was [pause] posted back up to, Coningsby I think.
AB: Topcliffe.
PB: Yeah, oh, Topcliffe one or the other, yes, and er, after that they sent me back to, Bomber, where I converted on to the Vulcan eventually, that’s where we stayed did we not? Yes, I think so. Yes, they, the Cypriots had taken the [background noises] the explosives in a sandwich — in a sandwich tin, just in it, just in between two pieces of bread and they put 'em on the hinges of the aeroplane and blew the wing off, yes, the pilots didn’t like it, no, weren’t too keen on that. So, they put closer guards on the aeroplanes, that’s the only thing they could do [background noises].
CH: What year was this?
PB: Yes.
CH: What year?
PB: Erm, gosh, what year was Cyprus Chris? It’s in there, when we're doing the Cypriot runs. Five, yeah, it’ll be listed there. [pause] 'Cause they were gun running as well, that’s what we were doing there [?] just trying to pick up the gun runners at night [background noises].
[inaudible]
CH: I'll pause that. What were you saying about the Cypriots?
PB: They were very clever in the way they smuggled their weapons and stuff in, that’s why we were doing these orbits around Cyprus at night to try and catch the boats, the little boats they used to get weapons over, and explosives and that sort of stuff, yeah.
CH: Was this the time of EOKA?
PB: Yes, exactly, yes, yes. [pause] I think it was eighty something, yes.
CH: That would have been in the fifties, nineteen fifties.
PB: Yes, that’s it [indistinct]. But I moved over onto the Vulcan, 'cause we went off to Finningley for our conversion and I’d only flown on piston aircraft, piston air, and I sat in this, monster and he said, er, ‘opening the throttles, full throttle’, whump, and I found myself up over my seat and I thought, good grief, [laughs], and I, I got the instruments in front of me 'cause we’d got an altimeter and an airspeed indicator, and he shot down the runway and I watched the altimeter go like that [laughs], winding upwards [laughs]. I’m not in a fighter but a fantastic performance, it really was, but I did get used to it of course, in the end, but, one or two of the blokes I flew with like Dave Thomas and, and Andy, could really handle a Vulcan well. Dave Thomas, when we’d, we'd done a display, we were coming home one Sunday and he said, ‘Do you mind if I try and roll it?’ and I said, ‘Well, I don’t see any reason why you shouldn’t Dave’, and he did a roll and my desk lid lifted about half an inch and went down again, that’s all I knew, but somebody on the ground saw him, reported it to 1 Group Headquarters, and we were all summoned to see the AOC [laughs] 'cause we were both squadron leaders and he gave us both a right rollicking, and he said, ‘Don’t ever do that again’, [emphasis] well he said, ‘If you do don’t let anybody see you’, [laughs] ‘And would you like to stay for lunch’, [laughter] so he wasn’t really annoyed [laughs], but. Ah, ha, but, we did have some fun in the Vulcan one way and another [pause]. Ah. When we were training we were given a weekend off and, mother was always very pleased because we got a special, ration for aircrew and it added to her points, I think it doubled them just about and of course we got a free railway warrant, so I used to always, um, ask for a one to Birmingham and I used to exit at New Street station which was open and then catch the bus home, and that way I ended up with a few free tickets, you see, that I, I could use later on, which I did and during the war, yes it was very handy, but , yes every six weeks we were sent, to, to clear off and have a rest, eh, because we never knew but the sky over Britain was, must have been full of aeroplanes at night, that we didn’t know about, there was no radar cover, nothing like that, you just flew and fingers crossed, hope for the best that you saw everybody else, eh, fortunately we survived, no problems [laughs].
CH: Did you keep in contact with any of your crew that you flew with in the war?
PB: Yes, yes, eh, I haven’t contacted Henry, I did John Tidmarsh for a little while, I’ve lost contact with him.
AB: Johnny, Johnny King.
PB: Yes, but , Johnny King that, flew with since the war, yes, still in contact with him, he's in Canada but, we're in regular contact, yes, we flew together on, on Lincolns, yes, in fact he was a flight engineer and then, changed to pilot, trained to be a pilot, yeah.
AB: Lorenzo, Lorenzo.
PB: Yes, eh, anything else I’ve forgotten?
AB: Lorenzo.
PB: Oh yes, I kept in contact with Keith but he’s dead now of course, passed away.
AB: The Canadian ones, we’ve been over to Canada and stayed with them.
PB: But, [interrupted].
CH: Were there Canadians in your crew?
PB: Er, no, no there was, one Irish and the other one was a Londoner, the two gunners, yeah, one London, one Irish and one London. Paddy Mack [?], he was the rear gunner and there’s a little London fella, I can’t remember his name is the mid upper gunner, and I was the reserve gunner if necessary [laughs] but, I was never used [pause]. I think that’s about all I can remember, apart from the fact that flying was always cold, very, very cold [emphasis]. The only warm place in the Lancaster was in my position in fact, er, that wasn’t too bad, but the rest of them the Anson and the Wellington were perishing [laughs]. You used to wear as much clothing as we could to keep warm and you could hear the gunner in the back cracking the ice in his oxygen mask [laughs], crunching away [laughs], [coughs] but eh, you learn to live with these things [pause]. On Vulcans, Andy Milne and er, the rest of them [interrupted]
AB: Dave Thomas.
PB: Yes, but I think Andy Milne [interrupted]
AB: Jerry Strange.
PB: Was the best, 'cause we, we went on the bombing competition twice so we must have been pretty good [interrupted]
AB: And won, each time.
PB: But eh, yes, we beat the Americans at one stage but er, out in Barksdale, they didn’t like that very much [laughs], poor old, but they’ve been very good to us the Yanks I must admit, yes, um, but yes that was, that was a very good crew I must admit and we, we're still in touch, all of us. Yes, Andy's down in Devon with his own small holding, and, but our co-pilot settled in the Far East, built himself a house [unclear]
[inaudible]
PB: And er, my navigator’s still around, he comes, still comes to the meetings occasionally [pause] but, trying to think that’s, that’s about the limit of -. 'Course, there was our, my crash in the Vulcan, that was quite interesting [laughs]. Well we got to — went out to fly one day, Flight Lieutenant Galway was the captain at the time and, I was the AEO, Stan Grierson was the co-pilot, and we had, Alan Bowman and, was the radar. Anyway we got, this, almost brand-new Vulcan, it had got about ten hours on the air frame. Anyway, climbed on board, and set off and we were flying about an hour, when Ivor said, ‘The hydraulic pressure's reading zero’, I said, ‘Well tap the gauge Ivor, you know, use the old knuckle’, [laughs] he tapped it, wouldn’t come back you know, I said oh, ‘Hang on then I’ll see if it’ll move my,’ got a little scoop on the rover gas turbine in the wing, a little motor, I put my switch on and off, didn’t move, I said, ‘This looks ominous Ivor, it looks to me as if we’ve lost all our hydraulic pressure’, ‘But we’ve got air, we’ve got air, yes, have no fear, we’ll go back and use the air,’ he says, 'Okay, right', so we, we came back to base and um, burnt off a bit of fuel, you know as much as we could and then he said, ‘Right selecting emergency air, undercarriage down,’ down it went, bang’ [emphasis]. Two greens, one red. Oh dear, [sigh] ‘Which is the one?’ he said, ‘It’s the starboard wing, port undercarriage has not gone down and locked’. Now that’s bad, you can’t do anything about that at all. ‘I’ll check the electrics just to make sure that it’s not a fuse’, it wasn’t. So, he said, ‘Well , what about bailing out?’ I said, ‘Bailing out!, the nose wheels down', I said, 'I’ll go sliding out and the first thing I’m going to hit is the nose wheel,’ I said, I’m not too keen on that Ivor, if you don’t mind,’ I said, ‘The navigator and the radar might want to have a go?’ but, he looked at me and said, ‘No sir, I said, ‘What are you going to do Ivor?’, he said, ‘Well, I’m going to land her’, he said, ‘I’m going to try and land’, I said, ‘Well I'm, you are going to have two, three passengers on board as well, so to make sure you don’t clear off we’ll keep the safety pins in the seats all right, if you don’t mind, so you don’t accidently pull those handles and disappear,’ [laughs] he said, ‘Right oh,’ he said, I said, ‘Well, shall we prepare for a crash landing,’ he said, ‘That’s a good idea,’ so, we went through the drill, he said, ‘What we’ll do, we’ll pull the handle, get rid of the canopy, so that we can get out of the top at the front if anything happens,’ you know, that, and he said, ‘We'll, we’ll try.’ So he, he did a roller and it held up, but eh, and we went round again, came in, he said, ‘Well, here we go, hang on fellas.’ And eh, as he lowered the wing, bump [emphasis] down it went, straight onto the ground [laughs]. Round we went, twice [laughs]. We came to a halt about twenty yards from another Vulcan [laughs]. The bottom, our exit was okay, it was clear, actually, we could get out and the aero, the aeroplane was still upright, there was enough room for us to get out and clear off, which we did, as quickly as possible [laughs]. The aeroplanes left there with its wing on the ground, eh, yeh, a complete failure of the down leg had cracked [whispering], split, and all the hydraulic fluid had vented [?] to air. Nothing you could do about it [background noises].
CH: Let’s just pause this.
[interview paused]
PB: Crash landed twice in Rhodesia, [laughs] flying along and the pilot [background noises] said to me, ‘The controls have jammed,’ he said, ‘I can’t move the control column Phil, [background noises] can you come and give me a hand up here?’ I did, we couldn’t shift it at all, we were in a steady slow climb, so he said, ‘[unclear] I'm going to wind full nose trim on, we’ll go down and look for somewhere flat’ [laughs]. Which is what he did, [laughs] we did a very slow descent, we got two nav- cadets on board and I said, ‘Get in your crash landing position, it might be a bit bumpy when we land,’ but they [unclear] were very good you know, straight in, bent the props back and all the rest of it, chopped the ground up a bit, but er, opened the back door and the two lads jumped out, not even a bruise, yeah, yes. A clapped out old Anson you see, the control cables had dropped through the guides and jammed, you couldn’t move 'em, but there we are [laughs]. These are little things you’ve got to be ready for [laughs]. Yes, I had a time when I had to fly the aeroplane back when the pilot fell asleep, as well, poor [unclear] Freddy [laughs]. I said, ‘Fred, [laughs] we need to go back to base Fred’, [laughs] Fred Holloway, ‘What you say Phil?’ [laughs]. I said, ‘One eighty and head for Thornhill Freddy,’ [emphasis] [laughs] ‘oh, you’ll have to do it Phil’, I said, ‘Oh, crikey, I’ve not done this before Freddy,’ [laughs] ‘Nothing to it,’ he said, ‘Just keep it steady,’ he was right, you know I just [laughs], half an hour we were back over the top and he was awake by this stage. I said, ‘Do you think you could land it Freddy?’ oh, got the goose necks out there they are, I could see them, oh, he managed it. Ah, he’d been flying continually for, I think it was a week we’d been doing night flying and without any rest, or something like that, he’d overdone it [pause] yes, right oh, [pause] yes. Well the, the trips to the Congo were, well the Russians packed it in, they wouldn’t go, they, they’d got their aircraft out there, but , they said it was too dangerous, apparently. The weather was always icy [unclear], you know, going through the front but, we just, filled the old Hastings up with their soldiers and off we went and did it, but , we managed to get there and back okay.
CH: What was it that you were doing in the Congo?
PB: Ferrying the United Nations troops from, Nigeria and Ghana into the Congo to, as a peacekeeping — peacekeeping force really, because there were, having a, a dreadful war out there, Katanga, and political as well. They were slaughtering each other left, right and centre, as they do, out there, and so that’s what we were doing, ferrying the troops back and forth [pause]. RAF Transport Command, the black people saw 'em and thought they were commandos, that we were ferrying commandos in to attack them. And eh, we had to go through Leopoldville, which every time we went through, this chap in his ragged [unclear] came out with his hand, wanting so many thousand dollars so that we could go through and get into the Congo proper, where we wanted to be, and, I've forgotten how many thousand dollars we had to hand over, and if you didn’t they set up a light machine gun and trained it on the aeroplane, [laughs] so we paid [laughs]. Yes, we had to put on our United Nations hats, be part of the United Nations force, as opposed to the Royal Air Force [pause].
AB: I don’t know I didn’t hear what she said either Phil.
PB: Eh [unclear] yes, but , yes, yes, you never know — know when you were going to get through or not, that was the trouble, they tried to pull us back once because they thought we’d got the Prime Minister on board, they thought he was, the, the Prime Minister that had been giving them all the trouble, they thought we’d kidnapped him and we were taking him away [laughs] and they said, you must return to Leopoldville immediately, but er oh, it was old Bill Corker[?] who was flying, he says, ‘Tell 'em not bloody likely,’ [laughs] he said, ‘We’re going back to Accra as fast as we can [laughs] and we're not going back to Leopoldville, thank you’ [laughs]. Yes, that was their, the, the biggest problems were handling these people properly, so they could be very tricky these, black politicians. I’ve forgotten what his name was now but he was, [background noises] he caused a lot of trouble out there [pause], 'cause they’re all starving, and, we gave them all our food, all of us [unclear], as much as we could [pause].
AB: And this is one of the letters from the one he's talking about.
PB: Yes [unclear].
AB: Because they used to write regularly to us, letting us know what was going on in the other, the half and I just thought there might be something in here, erm, well there is about killing two Europeans before they got off, before we let you go we are going to kill two Europeans. I’d have to go through the whole of the letter for. I think they're the only two letters we kept, we had piles of them, didn’t we? [pause]. Yes, why I brought that out that was to show you that that’s how we used to communicate.
PB: I remember that, that’s the first time I saw Dennis’s name in, in print after he was , in the chapter called, “Men Like These”, yeah.
AB: Yes, it is only a small part of it, but I just thought that you would be interested, you know, because a lot of it happened in the era that you don’t remember. But, I think maybe David’s got the book.
PB: Oh yes, possibly yes, the one with the red cover, yeah, yes, bit tatty but , yes, yes it was a good book, yes.
AB: Any book that’s got a bit about the family in it, is good [laughs].
PB: I’m sixty, four, forty, KCs, but, as I say the aircrew of course, treat these things with er, well I, I can’t say it really, because its racist but er, [laughter] ‘Hello, hello darkies speak to me you black’ [laughs] and such like, as aircrew a lot, but, bit like that I’m afraid [laughs]. But, er, he’d never heard of it he said, but I said, 'Oh I can assure you it was an emergency [unclear] system during World War Two'.
AB: I know this has only got to do with [unclear].
CA: Not to mention the high jinks you got up to after a dining in night, and you decided to drive down to London to see the Queen, in a sports car, four of you, do you remember that?
AB: I remember them going, yeah. I remember them coming home [laughs] yeah, but that, is that the sort of thing you also want to know about?
PB: What's that?
AB: When you and, erm, what’s his name, all climbed into his sports car to go to visit his auntie, in London.
PB: In Mayfair.
AB: You and?
PB: Stan Grierson.
AB: And Ivor Galway.
PB: And Ivor Galway.
AB: All in their mess kit.
PB: Yes, not, not the best thing to do.
CA: Not having [?] imbibed a certain amount of alcohol?
PB: Weren’t in our right senses, no. ‘We’ll go and see my aunt, she lives in Mayfair [interrupted].
AB: This is from Cottesmore [unclear].
PB: 'She’s got a very nice flat’. ‘Okay Stan, yes, let’s go’. We get the car [laughs] oh dear.
AB: Carry on love.
PB: Yes, then all the wives panic, ‘Where’s my husband gone?’ [laughs]. ‘Don’t know, haven’t the faintest idea?’ We were on our way home, safe and sound.
AB: Yes, all of us were ringing each other up, the wives, to find out, is he home yet, to [unclear], Ivor’s wife, ‘No he’s not home yet, haven’t heard from him’, 'Haven’t you heard from them?’ ‘No.’ They were in London, in their mess kit, all in one sports car, they'd stayed the night, had their breakfast with auntie and then set off to come home. Arrived home at, oh I don’t know, maybe eleven o’clock, eleven am, to irate wives as you can well imagine, having been, been one [laughs]. Go on carry on, what happened then?
PB: Well, that was it wasn’t it, young and irresponsible, absolutely, totally irresponsible.
CA: As children, we were told you’d gone to see the Queen.
AB: Yes [laughs].
PB: Especially for a mature gentleman like you, yes.
AB: Well, you were the oldest member of the crew, you were the responsible one, all the others were young.
PB: Yes exactly, yes, I was the leader, yeah, yeah.
AB: I mean what a thing to do after a dining in night, you'll know about the dining in nights and how they, raucous they can get. Let’s go to London and see the Queen.
PB: It seemed a good idea at the time, yes, yes [laughs].
AB: You can imagine them arriving in London can’t you, all in their mess kit [pause]. Auntie didn’t turn a hair, did she?
PB: No.
AB: Gave them breakfast and sent them on their way [laughs].
PB: Yes, she did have a very nice flat, in Mayfair.
AB: It’s a pity those sort of things can’t come in the thing, 'cause they are hilarious, you know, but erm, what else did you do?
PB: Oh well, I’ve always been a good fellow you know that, I haven’t done anything.
AB: What about the ones in Nottingham? Auntie, in Nottingham, and Fosco?
PB: [laughs] Yes.
AB: I think we wives could write a book.
PB: Yes, come home, all is forgiven, Mother Vallance [laughs].
AB: This was, shall I carry on with it? This was one, one of the young men was, was violently sick when they went to stay in this house in Nottingham where they all used to go if they couldn’t get home 'cause the last bus went at seven o’clock at night, I mean, ridiculous really, so they used to go and stay, and he was very sick in the bedroom and he didn’t tell any of the crew, 'til he got home, and of course, she, the landlady went up and found all this, and she, she eh, was furious obviously. They all sent her a bunch of flowers and a letter saying, you know, we are sorry about this, and she wrote a letter back saying, all is forgiven, come home, love Mother Vallance [laughter]. 'Cause, this is when they were all at Coningsby.
PB: [laughs].
AB: But there’s lots of little stories like that, you know, that don’t come under the terms of flying, you know, but I think we should do a book on what the wives remember [laughs].
PB: Yes.
AB: Anymore?
PB: No, he’s still going strong, isn’t he Fosco?
AB: Yes, the one who was sick, he must be about, they were, they were all probably five or six years younger than Phil, he was the oldest member of the crew, erm, so he will probably be in his early eighties.
PB: Yes.
AB: Still lives at Coningsby. It's funny thinking about them all now, you know, it —
PB: Yes.
AB: 'Cause, Ivor Galway, the pilot of the plane that crashed, he used to live at Woodhall Spa.
PB: Yes ah.
AB: She had an unhappy end didn't she, committed suicide, a lot of the wives couldn’t take the pressures, as they were in those days, you know, the bomb and what not, you know. You, you never knew when they were called out on a QRA, does your husband, still do, is he still in the air force?
CH: No, it’s my son.
AB: Pardon?
CH: My son.
AB: Oh son. So, he would still do QRAs, rushed out in the middle of the night.
PB: Yes, that’s right.
AB: A lot of funny stories about QRAs and being called out.
PB: We used to wait for the call, ‘Attention, attention, this is the bomber controller for Waddington QRA only, readiness zero two is now in force’, and jumped in the car and straight out to the aeroplane and fire it up and get ready. That’s what they used to do [pause].
AB: It’s alright, that’s just a little passage, from the book. They arrived at the door in their flying kit having been brought home by bus because they were all, you know, a bit shaken.
PB: The MO thought we were all shook up, he said 'Go home', yes, I said 'I’m not shook up'.
AB: And we didn’t care less anyway we were, we were too busy with our sherry [laughs].
PB: Yes.
[laughter]
PB: Yes, QRA was a bit of, bit of a, bit of a bind but eh — [interrupted].
AB: And your son will know all about that if he, do they still do QRAs?
PB: Yes, well I suppose they do really eh, sleep in your kit and er, be ready to go eh, at a moment’s notice and it was eh, sort of broken sleep, that sort of thing, mind you at the same time, the food in the aircrew feeder was excellent eh, 'cause we had our own little restaurant, yes, but , [coughs] and of course, you could probably go a couple of nights without being called at all, and then suddenly, you know ‘Attention, attention, this is the bomber controller,’ and eh, and off you’d go, but, but you took your turn, you weren’t on it all the time [pause].
AB: Can I speak [whispered]. 'Cause that’s how a lot of the wives couldn’t cope because they never knew when they were called out on QRA, where they were going and what they were going to do. They could have been called to Russia and when they've passed a certain boundary time, place, they can’t turn round and come home again, they have to keep going, and a lot of the wives, lot of the wives could not cope with this, not knowing when their husbands went out on a QRA call, whether they were coming home or not.
PB: Yes.
AB: Especially the ones who were called out on the, the last, the Falkland do.
PB: Yes.
AB: They actually all wrote letters to their wives because once they got out they wouldn't have been able to turn round and come back.
PB: I think the really serious one was the missile crisis with Russia, you know, with the ships eh, going to Cuba, and J F Kennedy was the really serious one [pause]. That’s where — where we were on full alert, ready, ready to go, actually. Not that anyone wants to 'cause you know well that, there'd be nothing to come back to, if it ever happens, that’s why we want to stop these missiles spreading, it’s very difficult to do but we must try our best.
[laughter]
CH: I shall end that there. Thank you very, very, much Phil.
PB: Yes [laughs].
CH: Thank you.
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Interview with Philip Batty
Description
An account of the resource
Philip Batty grew up in Walsall. He discusses the death of his older brother Dennis, a wireless operator with 226 Squadron, early in the Second World War. Philip volunteered for aircrew. After training, he was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Sturgate as a wireless operator/ air gunner in May 1945. He was involved in Operation Dodge and United Nations peacekeeping in the Congo. He worked in Rhodesia and Cyprus and survived crash landings in a Vulcan and an Anson. He reminiscences about work colleagues and tells some humorous stories relating to his career in the Royal Air Force, which spanned 40 years.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-14
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Janet McGreevy
Format
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01:02:22 audio recording
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ABattyPH161014
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Zimbabwe
Cyprus
Cuba
England--Lincolnshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945-05
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
226 Squadron
50 Squadron
aircrew
Anson
B-29
Battle
Blenheim
bombing
crash
Distinguished Flying Medal
Initial Training Wing
killed in action
Lancaster
Lincoln
military living conditions
military service conditions
Operation Dodge (1945)
Operational Training Unit
RAF Bridlington
RAF Coningsby
RAF Madley
RAF Sturgate
RAF Wattisham
RAF Wyton
training
Wellington
wireless operator / air gunner
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/591/8860/PJonesF1511.2.jpg
793b04c59a074fc16cf9516d8c970d4b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/591/8860/AJonesF150731.1.mp3
86afe35b0e7335acc49e9f49e10f4275
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Jones, Frank
F Jones
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Jones, F
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. An oral history interview with Derek Jones, Frank Jones's son. Frank Jones flew operations as a bomb aimer with 158 Squadron. Includes photographs of aircrew.
The collection was catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Transcribed audio recording
A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
BB: We are going to erm, read some of his father’s notes, that he’s going to explain that
DJ: Disembarked and travelled to RAF Hednesford on the 16th of July 1946, then on the 20th of July with demob leave until the 30th of November 1946, to apply for a job and so ended my war time service of five years, nine months and twenty-eight days.
[recording paused]
BB: This is the interview with Mr Frank Jones’s son, Derek, as Mr Jones senior is, is an elderly gentleman and er, is, has a frail sounding voice, but he is present and er, he does give his permission. And so, I er, would just like to say that the meeting is being held in my house in Dunblane and it’s now twelve fifteen.
[recording paused]
DJ: I have found my Dad’s notes written in his own hand about his war time experiences. It covers in detail his enlistment, training camps, time abroad, how his crew were put together, bombing raids and his demobilisation, plus other interesting and unusual stories. They were written decades ago but they are primary source material and accurate. They will help with the recording and here is the information from those notes:
Prior to joining the forces in World War two, I had left school at sixteen and trained as a horticulturist with the Liverpool Corporation, having successfully passed my gardening exams, I decided to follow three of my brothers and join the forces. On the 1st of October 1941, I joined the RAF at Padgate, Warrington, aged eighteen. After basic training in England, I spent the next two years training in South Africa. I trained in Whitley, Anson and Oxford aircraft. The training included dinghy and parachute drills, I was continuously tested in subjects such as navigation plotting, astro navigation, compasses, maps and charts, instruments, reconnaissance and photography. I remember completing fifty hours in an Anson and twelve hours in an Oxford as detailed in my flying book. Er, when my training in South Africa was almost complete, I qualified as a navigator bomb aimer, at Queenstown, on the 29th of May 1943. In the following month on the nineteenth of June I qualified as an air gunner at ninety, er, No. 43 Air Gunners school.
Back in Britain, at the beginning of 1944, I continued flying training in the Whitley, this training was to hone my skills acquired in South Africa. My main role in those training flights was air-bomber, I also carried out simulation and bombing practice. My training in Whitley and Anson aircraft was at RAF Kinloss at No. 19 OTU, flying time totalled just over ninety-three hours. From May 1944 until June the 13th, there were more training flights, practising among other things, circuits and landings, three engine landings, bombing, fighter affiliation, instrument flying. By this time, I had completed two hundred and forty hours in the air since the beginning of my training. [pause]
I was based at RAF Lissett near Bridlington with 158 Squadron, whose motto was ‘Strength through Unity’. My crew for all the operations that I flew were, pilot Fred Meaden, Alf Shorter, Mac Harris, Ray Wells, Ron Evans and Dave Lockyer. On the twenty-third of June nineteen forty-four, I took part in my first op when we flew to [unclear] I was a bomb aimer, I was positioned in a streamline Perspex nose, with a single hand-held machine gun. From then on, I completed another thirty-four operations before being screened. I flew in a Handley Page Halifax Mk 3 with improved Bristol Hercules engines instead of the Merlin engine which was used in the Mk 2 Halifax. With a maximum speed of two hundred and eighty miles an hour and a range of twelve hundred miles fully loaded, the targets we went after were largely German industrial ones. [pause]
My, one of my most dangerous was the one in which I was awarded the DFM for, er, it was the 12th of September 1944 at Gelsenkirchen Nordstern, it was a daylight raid against a synthetic oil refinery. On the run-up to the target our aircraft came under heavy accurate flak and in the book, “In Brave Company”, Ray Wells, the flight engineer, described the attack as follows. ‘When pilot Fred Meaden arrived over the city, bomb aimer Flight Sergeant Jones was unable to pick out the aiming point through the banks of smoke and cloud, calmly he asked the pilot to make a second and then a third orbit, before he called, ‘bombs gone’. By this time, we had lost the main force and we turned to England as quickly as we could. The next morning our ground crew had found half of the rudder control cable severed by flak’. As my pilot Fred Meaden said in my citation for the DFM, I was always completely determined to press home the attack and to ensure the accuracy of my bombing, I frequently asked him to orbit the target.
BB: That must have been very annoying for the crew and very frustrating for the crew.
FJ: It was!
BB: But you had to get the picture and you had to get the photo of the last picture and you had to hit the target, so there was no, the pilot got you there, the gunners protected you, but you [emphasis] had to drop the bombs.
FJ: That’s right.
BB: And that was a very important part.
DJ: In total, I flew thirty-five sorties and my last one was on the 2nd of November 1944, on a night time raid to Dusseldorf. By this time, I’d completed two hundred and fifty-four hours of day time flying and a hundred and seventy-one hours of night time flying. Er, overall, I had fifty, fifty-five thousand men died in the air war and that is one in every two men who joined up. I was fortunate to be in 158 Squadron, which I believe had fewer losses than many other squadrons. Also, those flying in the Halifax Mk 3, suffered fewer casualties perhaps because of the improved ceiling limit and the greater manoeuvrability of the plane. When the war concluded, I decided that I would not return to my old job as a horticulturalist, instead I decided to become a teacher. Like so many of my generation the war had a decisive impact on my life and the course I followed thereafter.
BB: Thank you very much for reading that Derek and thank you very much Frank for telling us your story. It’s tremendously interesting to hear erm, these things first hand from people who were there, and that’s the whole point of this archive, so that generations in the future will benefit from your story and the stories of others, so thank you very much and we now will conclude this interview at twelve-thirty. Thank you very much indeed.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Derek Jones
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Bruce Blanche
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-07-31
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AJonesF150731
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
00:08:10 audio recording
Description
An account of the resource
Bomb aimer Frank Jones wrote notes decades ago regarding his service in Bomber Command with 158 Squadron. His son, Derek reads his father’s story, which includes his early life, enlisting into the RAF and training in navigation at No. 43 Air Gunners school in South Africa. Frank was based at RAF Lissett after his training. He reads about Frank’s opereation over Gelsenkirchen Nordstern where he earnt the DFM for his bravery. Frank completed thirty-five operations and mentions the names of his crew. After the war Frank decided not to go back to horticulture but to become a teacher and states that the war had a decisive impact on his life.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Carolyn Emery
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
South Africa
England--Yorkshire
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1944
158 Squadron
19 OTU
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
Anson
bomb aimer
Distinguished Flying Medal
Halifax
Halifax Mk 3
Operational Training Unit
Oxford
RAF Kinloss
RAF Lissett
RAF Padgate
training
Whitley
-
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9bd5bc56b3f2975318e21ccb8a8fb21a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Turner, Betty
B Turner
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Description
An account of the resource
Four items. The collection consists of an oral history interview with Betty Turner, (– 2015, 2146029), a photograph and two poems. Leading aircraftswoman Betty Turner served in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force at 92 Group Headquarters as a wireless operator. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Betty Turner and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-06-02
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Turner, B
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
[inserted] This is why I joined [underlined] RAF [/underlined] Dec 1942 [/inserted]
He was twenty-two I was seventeen
I thought he was lovely &
he seemed very keen
But he was a bomber pilot
didn’t stand a chance
when singled out by fighters
shot down over France
That evening, as usual, I waited
His friend came instead
I sobbed as he told me
my lovely friend was dead
Since then I’ve loved a dozen times
But first love’s so sincere,
Remember him? Of course I do,
Especially this time of year.
After this happened within days I joined the RAF and after training at Compton Bassett, became a wireless operator. Very boring listening in to signals writing down pages of groups of letters. Found out many years later, some of which we wrote down went to Bletchley Park to help break the German secret code.
Betty Turner (nee Baldock)
Aylesbury
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
This is why I joined the RAF
Description
An account of the resource
A poem written in December 1942 after her first love was shot down over France. After his death Betty resolved to join the Royal Air Force and became a wireless operator. According to a note, she later found out that some of what she wrote down went to Bletchley Park to help break the German secret code.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Betty Turner
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1942-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One typewritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Poetry
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MTurnerBM2146029-170131-03
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1942-12
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
arts and crafts
grief
ground personnel
love and romance
military ethos
RAF Compton Bassett
recruitment
shot down
Women’s Auxiliary Air Force
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/94/890/MBartlettA[Ser -DoB]-150520-01.jpg
885c87274733d7750cd4eb3ff185a068
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bartlett, Anthony Bertrand
Anthony Bartlett
A B J Bartlett
A B Bartlett
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bartlett, A
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. The collection consist of documents concerning Flight Lieutenant Anthony Bertrand Joseph Bartlett’s service. It includes a poem and two memoirs, one a recollection of a mine laying operation and one about an officers’ mess function.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Antony Bartlett and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-19
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
ANTHONY
KALEIDOSCOPE - THE MORNING AFTER - 1943
Next morning
earth still revolving
lights before the eyes;
Fires burning in the mind,
still fully clothed
on the bed sprawled.
How did we return?
Am I still alive?
Was it Hades I watched?
Can't sleep...
Breakfast in the Mess
no-one speaks
no-one smiles;
Eight hours to forget
another nightmare
another night!
Dear God - is this real?
Anthony Bartlett
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kaleidoscope – the morning after - 1943
Description
An account of the resource
Five verse poem describing feelings the next morning after a harrowing night operation. Describes emotions and surprise that the crew survived.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Antony Bartlett
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One typewritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Poetry
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MBartlettA[Ser#-DoB]-150520-01
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
aircrew
arts and crafts
bombing
military service conditions
perception of bombing war
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/94/889/MBartlettA[Ser -DoB]-150520-040001.jpg
4f8832ffb6710dc182c8b89bc93aef09
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/94/889/MBartlettA[Ser -DoB]-150520-040002.jpg
4b0fe4244522fb292d0dcab4be90aea5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Bartlett, Anthony Bertrand
Anthony Bartlett
A B J Bartlett
A B Bartlett
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Bartlett, A
Description
An account of the resource
Three items. The collection consist of documents concerning Flight Lieutenant Anthony Bertrand Joseph Bartlett’s service. It includes a poem and two memoirs, one a recollection of a mine laying operation and one about an officers’ mess function.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Antony Bartlett and catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-19
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy.
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AN ANXIOUS MOMENT
One moonlit dawn on 28th March 1943 from base in East Anglia we headed south over Selsey Bill. France and the Gironde River near Bordeaux was our objective – to lay mines.
My task in the second pilot’s seat was to help with controls when flying to the target, to go down into the bomb bay and, when there, release the bombs or mines in a stick formation to cause maximum damage to enemy shipping.
Seven boys aged around 20, clad in leathers, harnesses, helmets with intercom mike and earphones, plugged in for oxygen, flying at 15,000 feet. Our four-engine Stirling Q-Queenie was slow compared with the Lancaster.
Nothing challenged us across France and we were hoping the trip would be easy. This turned out to be far from the case. Over the target all appeared quiet and sleepy. The ships moored in the river were not showing lights. What a peaceful scene! I asked for “Bomb doors open”. “Bombs gone!” Just then all hell broke loose. One of the seemingly docile ships turned out to be an anti-aircraft vessel. We were right overhead and he couldn’t miss. Our tailplane [sic] was shot off and fuel was leaking from the tank. The engineer turned on the reserve fuel tank, but he then cried out as a shell left its mark. Ready hands tried to stem his wound whilst Ken and I struggled to pull back on the controls with engine revs at full strength.
Miraculously, as the giant engines clawed the air and we hovered for what seemed ages – but in reality were seconds – we seemed to be doomed to fall back into the river. Somehow we edged forward on full throttles and regained some height – sufficient to be able to pull away from a possible drowning end. We later found out tailplane [sic] had been completely shot off. In addition, we were down to three engines, so regaining height was another problem. Meanwhile, first-aid – albeit rather crude – had been enough to stem the engineer’s flow of blood and we covered him with a blanket to keep him warm.
The route home over France was quickly passed from navigator to pilot and, dreading a possible attack to further destroy our ailing craft, we limped towards the coast at 2,000 feet, dropping height all the way. At last I spied through cloud, the English coast as we limped over the Channel. A hundred feet over the cliff we called up Boscombe Down for permission to crash-land, giving details of our state as far as we knew. Directions were given and we staggered over the lights switched on a moment before we scraped down. A truck appeared with helpers as we almost fell down our steps from the hatch. An ambulance crew took
[page break]
charge of our wounded crew member as we made our way to the control tower. Our Irving jackets unzipped, our faces blackened with oil and grease, we looked a sorry sight. But we were home.
A briefing officer asked questions about our trip whilst we drank tea, also puffing on a cigarette. Some memories remained vivid, others dimmed in a need for rest and sleep. Charts were produced by the navigator as we endeavoured to recall every little thing of significance; the strength of the flak around the target – the attack by enemy planes – plus the behaviour of our aircraft engines, controls, armaments and so on. We traced our route to and from Gironde as best we could.
At last we could walk across to the Mess for something warm, stumbling thence to our billets and bunks. Often we were unable to undress, but flopped on to our beds to try and sleep.
The next night was another story!
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
An anxious moment
Description
An account of the resource
Describes events during a mine laying operation in a Stirling to the Gironde River near Bordeaux. Relates how the aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire which damaged the tail and an engine as well as wounding the flight engineer. Describes the struggle to regain control, treat wounded and the return flight to England culminating in a crash landing at RAF Boscombe Down. Mentions after flight activity including some details of the debriefing.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Antony Bartlett
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One typewritten sheet
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text
Text. Memoir
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
MBartlettA[Ser#-DoB]-150520-03
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Great Britain
France
Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay
England--Wiltshire
France--Bordeaux (Nouvelle-Aquitaine)
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-03-28
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
3 Group
anti-aircraft fire
bombing
briefing
debriefing
military service conditions
mine laying
RAF Boscombe Down
Stirling
-
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5feeef4c71584185da2d1aebf6d7e5b7
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/648/8918/ATomlinR150818.1.mp3
109034737a77a609cefe84b0dd75762f
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Tomlin, Ron
R Tomlin
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Tomlin, R
Description
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Four items. An oral history interview with Ron Tomlin (b. 1923) and three photographs. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 10 Squadron. Collection catalogued by Nigel Huckins.
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2015-08-19
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
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Transcription
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AM: Okay so, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, and the interviewer is Annie Moody, the interviewee is Ron Tomlin, and the interview is taking place at Mr Tomlin’s home in Streetly and it’s the 19th of August 2015. So, Ron, can we start with, can you just tell me a little bit about your family and where you were born, and your family background, what your parents did and school and stuff like that?
RT: Right, we was born in a place close to Shrewsbury, it’s called Ford, a little village, erm, I only lived there for a short while because my Father had come back from the First World War and he’d got himself a little van and he got a job with the post office, and then the post office got their own vans and er, so his little job dried up and we, and without his van he really didn’t have any trade apart from the fact he was a bit of a mechanic, he knew a bit about motor cars et cetera, and so they came back to Birmingham and they did their best. But, my Father had been gassed in the First World War and he couldn’t have a job inside because he was always spitting, and in those days people thought this was like a dirty habit, but modern information tells me, that spitting into the fire was the most hygienic way, they didn’t have paper hankies in, they couldn’t wash out, disinfect. We lived in a little back house, erm no garden, outside toilet that sort of thing and erm, this went on, my Mother tried to get her five children educated, my older brother went to grammar school, I went to grammar school but only on my second attempt because I didn’t pass high enough to get a grant for the books, and they couldn’t, my Father was unemployed, my Mother earned a living with washing and things like that, cleaning, and they, they couldn’t afford the extra grammar school fees, but because my older brother had gone, when he'd been there two years, I passed again, I could now go because I could have his books and his rugby shirt and things being passed down and so on, that went on until I was fourteen
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: When I ran away from home, I went to stay at my auntie’s house in, close to Shrewsbury, close to where I’d been born, on a farm, until my Mother bought me back, but I just didn’t want to go back to that grammar school, I didn’t want to learn French, I didn’t want to have a different life to all my friends, because nobody else I knew apart from my brother had gone to grammar school and in the end, erm and in the end that was accepted and I became apprenticed to a carpenter, and I say a carpenter, he was a big firm and he, he fitted out bars, Gaskell and Chambers, after a couple of years of that, I was fed up with that, and I wanted to get more money and the war had just started. I was sixteen, I was able to break the apprenticeship because I got a job doing war work at the BSA factory, and er, so I started working there and it wasn’t long afterwards, erm, one of the things that got me interested in the airforce was that the BSA had an ATC squadron, that’s the Air Defence Cadet Corp which became the ATC, and because this was the early days and because I was interested, I got a fair amount of promotion in that, and so when the BSA factory got bombed in nineteen forty one, I got fed up with clearing up after bombing and went with a couple of friends to join up. Now, we all wanted to be pilots
AM: Of course
RT: And they sent us away to Cardington for a three day test and I was accepted for pilot training, erm the other two, one was thrown out because he had flat feet
[loud aircraft noise]
AM: Because he had?
RT: Flat feet
AM: Flat feet
RT: Medical
AM: Yes
RT: And the other one, he was slightly older than us, he was accepted but into the RAF Regiment, so he didn’t come home with us, he was now in the airforce, he’d been thrown out and I’d been put on deferred service until I was old enough to start my pilot training, came back to Birmingham, I had to do evening institute work, navigation and things of that sort, until in nineteen forty two, late January, nineteen forty two, I was called up, I was now eighteen, erm eighteen and a little, and I went to Lords, the usual place for aircrew, I went to Scarborough, erm I had a problem with my feet, and when I’d finished my Scarborough breaking in, marching and all that, I was put into hospital to have toenails removed because they’d been bleeding, when that was finished and that took some time because I was eventually sent, it went wrong and I was sent back to Birmingham into Selly Oak hospital, I then went back to Carlisle, and I did my twelve hours pilot training
AM: Twelve hours? [emphasis]
RT: Yes, pilot training, at the end of twelve hours, the instructor said, ‘I’m not going to let you take off and land on your own, we haven’t got enough aircraft to let you crash,’ and so, I was placed into aircrew
AM: Right
RT: Sent away to the Isle of Man, and I eventually passed out with an observer brevvy, I’d done that, done navigation, bomb aiming, air gunnery and from the Isle of Man with my brevvy
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: I’d come back to Hastings in England, where I was being trained with advanced navigation, when the school got shot up by German planes, it was on the sea front and they shot out all the windows, and because we were now, some were needed to go, I got posted up to Lossiemouth and, to join a crew
AM: So, Hastings to Lossiemouth, how did you get from Hastings to Lossiemouth?
RT: By train
AM: Right
RT: By train with a warrant and a change of crew or whatever, and this and that or whatever, and from there, I joined up with five other people in what was known as Dibben’s crew, all the names are then, and for about three months we thought we were about to go out over Germany in a Wellington, we thought we were ready to go, we’d been doing a lot of flying particularly at night and we’d been, we’d had all sorts of mishaps, we’d had engine failure in Scotland, we’d had, we’d been shot by anti-aircraft guns over Oxford, we were ready to
AM: [laughs] Sorry to interrupt, what plane were you doing that training in then?
RT: It was in a Wellington
AM: You were in a Wellington, okay
RT: We were the Wellington crew ready to go, but then they said, you are going to be transferred to a Halifax
AM: Right, so at that time there were only five of you because you were a Wellington crew?
RT: There were only five of us, that’s right. So, we went back to Marston Moor in Yorkshire, under a CO who was Leonard Cheshire
AM: Right
RT: And we spent a few weeks learning to fly the Halifax
AM: Sort of, conversion training
RT: And we picked up an extra gunner called Agnew, and we picked up an engineer called Bob Hollinrake, but Bob Hollinrake is waiting for his cremation next Tuesday
AM: Yes, very sad
RT: That’s the last of the crew, yep, so erm, when we were then ready we were posted to 10 Squadron at Melbourne
AM: Right, okay
RT: And we got there in early July and we noticed, at the time I didn’t realise this was happening, but I know from records since, that most of my crew were being borrowed by other crews to go on missions. The pilot went twice, the navigator went twice, the engineer went twice, one of the gunners went once, and I was just sitting waiting for whatever
[loud aircraft noise]
AM: So, at that point, you hadn’t, had you done your first operation?
RT: No [inaudible]
AM: What was that like then, waiting while your mates were off doing operations?
RT: It’s one of the mysteries of life, because I and Louis Ure, the other man that didn’t go, have discussed this many times, we didn’t know, we were never waiting for them to come back, we were never asking them what it was like, we didn’t know, whether we would have been allowed to go if there was a raid on, we wouldn’t have been allowed off the station anyway, so we must have known, but for some reason it’s not in our minds now, so we don’t know
AM: Maybe, your just young and getting on with it
RT: That’s it, but then, late in July, probably the twenty second, twenty fourth of July, as a crew, we went to Hamburg
AM: The first one
RT: The first one
AM: So, what, what did, tell me about the day then, the bacon and eggs and then, did you have bacon and eggs?
RT: We, we always had a nice bacon and egg meal when we came back
AM: Right
RT: Yep, and we erm, I believe we had a good meal before we went, but the day of any operation is from lunchtime onwards, is being briefed, not only are you being briefed as a whole crew, each of your separate trades are being separately briefed about this, that and the other by the master bomber or the chief engineer or whatever, and then erm, in the early evening you are preparing for your trip, you are checked to see you are not carrying this, that and the other, you’re having your meal and eventually it’s time for you to be taken in your little van with the nice WAAF driver, and to your dispersal point, and there’s twenty aircraft almost surely being taking off and it takes a bit of time to get, it isn’t like, you see, twenty fighters taking off in the Battle of Britain, erm, all in dispersal places, they all have to assemble, they all have to fly off and gather on the coast before you set off in your wave
AM: And there’s a lot more men than there were in the fighters in the Battle of Britain, there’s seven of you in each plane
RT: That’s right, yep, and so erm, and then of course you don’t see much apart from the back end of other aeroplanes or something going wrong, because it’s all dark you know, nobody’s got lights on and the radio silence, but so, but when you go to a place like Hamburg which is already burning, you see it from a long way away, and our second big, [unclear] no serious incidents on our first trip to, our second trip was also to Hamburg, two or three nights later and we had a problem, we found that our oxygen system had failed, particularly there was none to the rear gunner who was singing as if he was drunk, and we made contact with our base and were ordered to get down low because of the oxygen, returned to base
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Eject your bombs in the sea
AM: Why was he singing because he was drunk, from lack of oxygen?
RT: From lack of oxygen, yeah, and it wasn’t clear whether the whole oxygen system was failing or just his part, but without a rear gunner protecting us we were too vulnerable anyway and they wanted us to come back, so they bought us back, erm, that was in my memory as being one of the raids, not knowing what time or where it was, but the man who made the film, looked up all the records and assures me that it was on the second Hamburg one we went on, and we were not too far over the sea when it happened according to him, in something like an hour and three quarters we were back home, whereas we would have been six or seven hours across the sea to get back down
AM: What happened, what did you do with the bomb load when you were coming back?
RT: We dropped it in the sea, we ejected it, and we had trouble with that too, we reached the stage where we even considered chopping out the, the last of the bomb bay racks for which we had a chopper, we’d been briefed on that if you had to get rid of them, but it actual fact a lot of shaking about, eventually they all went but not all in one place, but seeing as you was over the sea it wasn’t too bad. Two or three nights later we went back out to Hamburg again, this time no problem, that was a good mission, and so two out of three Hamburg runs were okay, and then this squadron was stood down, they had been on a lot of operations in July and early August and we were given a three day pass, I think they shut the whole squadron down in order to try and bring the planes back up to
AM: Scratch
RT: Because, I mean, on our first two missions that we did see planes sink, we did see planes going down, and these, we did encounter searchlights but the drill was always the same, you know, left, left, [unclear] and whatever, we reckoned we did have a good pilot and no serious mishap. So, having had our three day’s we went back
AM: Where did you go on your three days?
RT: We didn’t
AM: Oh, you just stayed there
RT: We stayed there, we stayed there, we, Louis and I have discovered that whilst we stayed there, the
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: we, the skipper was entertained at the navigator’s house in Staffordshire, and we always ribbed them about this, ‘why did you take him and not us,’ and we always used to take the mickey and that sort of thing, but erm anyway, this has all come out later on
AM: Yes
RT: In those days, none of those things would have probably, so we, we then, soon after we got back off our three day break, we were sent to Mannheim, which is a long trip, not across the sea, down England, right across Paris, right across Germany to Mannheim, seven hours sort of trip, and on our way back one engine overheated and we were forced to shut it down, so when we got back to base, we assumed that we could happily go to bed and we wouldn’t go the next night, the same night we just got back, but around lunch time they woke us up, and said, your aircraft is now suitable and we are raiding Nuremberg tonight, right, and you are required to go, so two or three of the crew, Bob Hollinrake, I think, and the skipper and the engineer, took the plane up and came back and said, its ok, and so we got briefed, and that evening at about quarter past nine, we set off again, right down England, right across Paris, right across, a bit further this time, this was an eight hour, before we got to the target, the same engine packed up again, and so we dropped a little behind the bomber stream because, I think we were in, it was in five waves from memory, and we were in two, so the fact that we were going slower than the rest meant that we were still with them like, just at the end, but we were probably [unclear] it wasn’t too long after that when we’d lost a bit of height because we’d had to come down a little bit past three because a fighter had frightened us, and partly because we were gaining a bit of speed et cetera by coming down. We lost another engine
AM: Same side or?
RT: No, no, one on each side
AM: Oh, okay
RT: And, okay, you can still fly, you can still fly a Halifax on two engines, but we decided we would go back to engine number one that had failed and see if we could get it going again, because it had overheated again, we got it going again, not too long we had the same problem again, and they dabbled with trying to make it three out of four but we never really had more than two. We gradually lost height and when we came back over Paris, we were all on our own of course, we’d now lost the, the other, the shelter of the others
AM: No, you weren’t in the stream anymore
RT: And, technically we were a bit too low, we were around nine and a half thousand feet, that is well in the range of guns, but not hit, and we got out over Dieppe
AM: Yeah
RT: Heading for Beachy Head, which was our right route home because the mines had been swept in order to make a ditching area, but we got hit by something [emphasis] in the wing, we believe it was a German warship, and I’ll tell you why later, but we, the plane couldn’t fly straight and whatever had happened to the wing, and the pilot decided that the only, and we’re still in cloud
AM: Was it still dark at this point?
RT: Oh yeah, it was four o’clock in the morning
AM: Oh right, sorry
RT: And it, yeah, and we’d been going since quarter past nine, it would have been a night out if we’d got back to Yorkshire. It was actually quarter past four when we actually hit the sea, but erm because of his problems with the controls and his decision is he’s not going to make the English coast, he’s got to get himself a good ditching chance, you’ve got to have enough control, to control it when it hits the water, though he did his best, as I say, we believed we had a very good pilot, he did his best, and we got six out I was, stayed with the pilot because I used to fly the second [unclear] and about six hundred feet we came out the cloud, and I said, cheerio to him, and took up my position which is lying on the floor with my feet on the bulkheads, and one of my jobs was to just jettison the two escape hatches, which I did, went down to join the others down there, and it was fairly soon after that, although I think he probably only had one engine going when he hit the sea, he wanted to make sure he got absolutely control over what it, it had to be good, not anything that could suddenly alter, and because we had the perspex nose and the sea was rough, and it was in rain, the nose broke when it hit a wave, in theory, he tried to put the tail in first and fall into the sea, that’s the theory of it, but the nose went so we were suddenly flooded because it, and of course it isn’t just sea water we’ve got, its fuel
AM: Fuel, yeah [coughs]
RT: And the dye that it, the yellow dye the Fluorescein, that they, so we were
AM: Hang on, the yellow dye of?
RT: It’s called Fluorescein, and when the plane hits the water it releases a yellow dye so you can see over
AM: Right, okay
RT: It distinguishes where the plane went in, I mean for some weeks after in Germany we were all yellow, but so, we then get up as quickly as we can, my job was to be first out as bomb aimer, other people have got other duties to do, Louis is supposed to be sending his message and to, I mean now he’s in his ditching position, he’s done all that, the navigator’s supposed to be bringing the charts with him and
AM: Packing his bag
RT: I think he had a big bag which was supposed to be locked on his arms, he claims he got a bang on the head and he didn’t get all his stuff, not able in time, but anyway, I’m at the dinghy, the plane is flat on the sea, I was able to get into the, onto the wing, took the dinghy over because it was inflating the wrong way up, push it into the sea, get into it, and then the others are coming one at a time, the pilot of course is still in his own bit, he’s got to find his way to us, but the dinghy isn’t inflating as it should
AM: I was going to ask you, so the dinghy, who lets the dinghy go or does it do that automatically?
RT: I never thought about it
AM: And its auto, should automatically inflate
RT: It is definitely inflating
AM: Okay
RT: When I first saw it upside down and then I turned it over it was inflating, its only when we got inside and the others started to pile in, and seven of you in one of those dinghies is a bit of a squeeze
AM: You still got your flying boots and everything on at this point?
RT: I’m sorry
AM: You still got your flying boots on at this time? [inaudible]
RT: Oh yeah, all in that, and it’s starting to, it’s trying to float below the surface and it’s starting to fold up like a
AM: Yeah
RT: Air is escaping, it’s only then that we realise that its full of holes, shrapnel, a small piece of shrapnel had gone through when we were hit on the wing, it’s gone through the folded up dinghy, now part of our drill is to find all the items we drop attached to the dinghy by cords, one of which is a knife, one of which is a pair of bellows, one is some food, one is a Very gun, there’s a whole set of things, the first thing we want is the knife, because of our position folded up in the water, not sitting on the water and because we’ve got holes, not only in the air bit, but also in the bottom, the pilot says, we must find the knife otherwise we are going down with the plane, we were attached to the plane, it’s a strong cord, ‘stand up one at a time, because there’s holes in the bottom, take your flying boots off, I don’t want anybody’, and I’m the first one standing up, my job really was to be first in everything. I stand up, first thing is my flying boots are over the side, nobody’s ever admitted to it but if you look in my little museum upstairs, you’ll see most of the crew in later years have sent me cards of flying boots
AM/RT: [laughter]
RT: Because eventually of course I arrive in Germany in bare feet, and I’ve had bare feet for a fair little bit of this nonsense. So, we can’t find the knife, the new air gunner a man we’d never quite got to know as well as the five man crew, Sandy Agnew, he produces a sheath knife from down his flying boot, a thing which we’d always been told, ‘don’t arrive in Germany armed even with a knife, because if you’re armed they could kill you,’ whereas in the Geneva convention they’re not supposed to, he cuts us free. Very shortly after that we see the aircraft slide away, that’s right, so now we start to find these cords and find these things, we find the bellows, we find the bag full of corks, they’re like old fashioned spinning tops, little wooden things with threads on them, different sizes, with different size holes
AM: So, they’re for plugging all the holes?
RT: So, we start plugging the holes, we haven’t got enough for all the things, so people by holes have got fingers in, and things like that, but we’ve got the bellows and we start pumping, we kept that thing going for seventeen hours until we were rescued off the French coast. By then we’d found a little bit of Horlicks tablets, we found a Very cartridge gun, and we were you know, we were sailors now, we were but we couldn’t guide the dinghy
AM: So, you drifted back to the French coast then?
RT: Yeah. We got paddles but it’s a round thing and there’s no way two people can paddle a round thing and it, you know, eventually we’re off the French coast, we know we’re off the French coast at nine o’clock in the evening, it’s like twenty four hours since we left home, and there’s a ridiculous [emphasis] debate going on, can we, can we paddle all the way round to Spain? Shall we risk trying to go up towards all the twenty one miles, or if we get into the North Sea we’ll get lost, you know, et cetera, et cetera. When we see a Spitfire coming, two Spitfires actually, coming back over the coast, we fire our Very cartridge and the one Spitfire comes down, puts his canopy back, starts to wave to us and we’re now getting quite excited, it’s only a matter of minutes until they drop a flying, er flying lifeboat to us or whatever, or a flying boat will come and pick us up
AM: Yeah
RT: But, we were so close to the French coast, we didn’t realise how close we were, because the waves were high enough to hide it from us down there, but the Germans had seen the Very cartridge, and so they start to flash Aldis lamps, ‘identify, identify, identify’
AM: They’re actually [coughs] on the coast or were they [inaudible]?
RT: No on the coast
AM: Oh, okay
RT: And, eventually we flashed back because we also had a lamp, ‘RAF, RAF’ and they came out in a fishing boat with soldiers, armed soldiers, we all had to lie down, because of, we realised that there was a fair bit of risk with that sinking dinghy and we hadn’t got food or whatever, I think we were pleased to be picked up, to be saved as it were, you know
AM: At least you hadn’t drowned
RT: We weren’t drowned, yeah, and a boat came and they took us to a place called La Trémouille [?] which to me until recently is an unknown place in France, we’ve been back there a couple of times et cetera, I’ve had a holiday there. This last week or so, there’s a, a new series, series started on BBC and it’s all based on La Trémouille [?] [laughs] it’s a beautiful little town with all sorts of intrigue going on, you know, but anyway, we’re taken to Abbeville airfield and handed over to the Luftwaffe
AM: Are you still in your soaking wet clothes at this point?
RT: Oh, we are soaking wet, we were put in a little hut just to ourselves, in our wet clothes, we got a blanket each, still in our wet clothes, they locked us in and they gave us a saucepan full of hot potatoes in their jackets which were quite pleasant, and then the following day, a group of people who we believe to be two crews of German bombers, a party just bigger than us, we were seven they were probably nine, maybe ten. We were put on a train, still in our wet clothes and taken off to Germany, the journey took four days
AM: With the, with the German bomber crew
RT: Oh yes, they were in charge
AM: Is that right, okay, yeah
RT: One of those men loaned me his spare pair of boots, which I wore until I got to the first prison camp
AM: Did they fit you?
RT: Yes
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: We, when we arrived in Frankfurt, still with our dinghy, carrying our folded up dinghy, we were paraded on the station and the crowd came and spat at us, [unclear] bombers and all this sort of thing, which we thought was a bit unusual, we’ve found out since, that it was probably normal
AM: Did they try and get at you or were they just?
RT: No, nobody hurt any of us, no, et cetera, then they, the same nine people, they took us from the station to a tram car, one of these door tram cars, one behind the other, they shunted some people out, put us on and they took us to Gestapo headquarters, and outside Gestapo headquarters, the proper name is Dulag Luft
AM: Yeah
RT: Its well known as Dulag Luft now. The German had his boots back, they were his boots, they weren’t mine they were his, the, we didn’t need to explain, exchange, because I had no German, he had no English, he took me things and we went into there, and of course once we got in there, for about a week, we were then separated, we were in solitary confinement, interviewed most days by some German, sometimes we were put back in a cell with another airman
AM: But not your own crew?
RT: Not our own crew, sometimes we were put back with a member of our own crew, but we’d been briefed about all this, it was well known, we just don’t talk to one, if you don’t say anything, you know, but this went on for a week
AM: Did they do the nice guy, bad guy?
RT: Oh, all of that
AM: Cigarettes, all that stuff
RT: The officer with his gun in, gun out, until you’re proved to be, ‘I can shoot you,’ it’s all within, and ‘I don’t accept you’re a prisoner yet’, ‘you are not answering but I want you to’, ‘we are only allowed to give you rank name and number,’ ‘where you went to school’ and so, and so, ‘you attended Mary Street primary school,’ they got all the details, you know, so it, ‘that’s true, that’s a lie’, ‘I could shoot you for telling a lie’
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: [inaudible] but anyway, it went on for about a week and then we were all bought together again
AM: Were you scared, were you frightened, how did you feel about it?
RT: I think, I think I’m a young lad of nineteen, I must be, but the only time I can recall being really scared was while we were waiting to hit the water, you know, saying prayers and whatever, whatever comes into your mind, that’s a completely unknown situation you just don’t know what’s going to happen and, but I’m sure I’ve had a number of scares from Germans and things of that, but none of it is that I can recall in any detail, I’m sure, I’m not claiming to be brave or anything like that, so I think I must have been, but it’s not foremost in my mind. So, ooh, we are then in this Dulag Luft, which is, we were released by the Gestapo and we go into what it’s like, a little prison camp next door, there are English people in charge and they may be collaborators, they may be genuine people working on behalf of newly caught prisoners, I don’t know, but I still haven’t got my boots, and as I enter the compound somebody gives me a tin of condensed milk, and as soon as I got it opened, I scoffed it and I was violently sick, [laughs] but I can remember that in great detail
AM: It’s too rich for your stomach
RT: Well, I mean we hadn’t eaten for some time, you know, and on that train for four days, we’d had a little bit of German sausage and a little bit of bread, once a day, you know, the same as the Germans were having, that’s what they were having, they also [emphasis] didn’t have a bed for four days, you know, they were just in a wooden seated carriage, the same as we were, et cetera, so, okay, you’ve [unclear] then, you’re put on a train, bus carts and I’m taken to No 1 prison camp
AM: Were you still with your other six crew?
RT: Oh, we’re all together
AM: You’re all together
RT: We’re all together
AM: Yeah
RT: And we’re all together for some, that camp was organised into what we’ll call sixes, the food was shared out and you had to be in a combine of six, and so six of the crew were in the combine and one wasn’t, it was the little gunner, the man with the knife, he was in another combine with a Scotsman that he, because he was another Scotsman, so anyway, that was that. That was a nice prison camp, it was organised, it took all the people shot down since the start of the war, were all there, and they’d got a theatre and they’d got football teams with names like Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur, and I’m told that that one or two ex-professionals who’d become aircrew were playing in the teams, I didn’t know the people, and that was a nice enough place, and then somewhere along the line I acquired a pair of American army boots from the stores, the prison camp stores, but then a few months later we were, because it’s now getting very crowded, there were so many English and American prisoners coming in, its nineteen forty three, it’s all happening now and we were put on a train and we were taken to Lithuania. Four days again, same situation, we went to a reasonable camp, just started
AM: That was Lithuania, can you remember where it was?
RT: It was a place called Heydekrug
AM: Alright
RT: In Lithuania
AM: Yep
RT: Erm, we stayed there until, I think we went there in about November, remember I’d been shot down, its, its early September I’m in a prison camp
AM: Yeah
RT: So, I was not there too long in the good camp, then we go off to this very cold place in Lithuania, erm and nice place as I say, large place, four compounds, Americans in one, English there, English there and probably others in that one, and whilst we were there, five crew air gunner, Jock Finney, met his brother in law through the wire, he was in one of the other compounds, he knew he was there, and he persuaded the Germans to allow him to transfer to be with his brother in law and he took the little scotch lad with him, they all went together, and that was it, end, we never saw them again. They survived the war but not [unclear] we were involved in. Now, in about July or just after the invasion in June, we were overrun by the Russian front
AM: So, we are in nineteen forty-four?
RT: They were nowhere near us, but we’re in Lithuania and the Russian front is cutting off that whole section of Latvia and East Prussia, it’s all being, and so the Germans evacuated us by sea from the port of Memel and bought us back in to Swinemünde, a four day trip down in the hull
AM: All of you? How many?
RT: Eight hundred, down, we were on one boat, eight hundred, that was our compound. We know that on the day before, we only know now, on the day before in another boat, the American compound had also made the same route, and when we arrived back in Swinemünde, we were bombed by the American airforce, so we were lying on the truck, cattle trucks and there was a German pocket battle ship firing at them
AM: Would they have had any way of knowing who was on the boat, they just wouldn’t would they?
RT: No, no, no. So, eventually we were on a train, cattle trucks again, another four-day trip, this time back into Poland, at a place called [unclear] now, when we get it, this is known as the run off the road, this is the, which you all, one you must surely have heard about, when we get off the boat, where a lot of us have been manacled, we’re not manacled down in there because we couldn’t climb up the ladder
AM: So, hands rather than feet
RT: Yeah. But once we got off, some were pairs, some were fours, manacled together, and then, I call them the Hitler Youth, it was like a naval brigade of young soldiers with dogs and bayonets, start to chase us through the woods
AM: Yeah
RT: Wanting us to run, now we’re manacled together, and according to one lad, and we’ve each got a little haversack on our backs, which is an old shirt sewed up to make, to carry any bits and pieces that we’ve acquired in our nine months of captivity or whatever, and so, that runs down to your manacle and your stuck. I managed to get my hand out of my manacle because I was quite thin in those days and I’ve avoided any injury, and I’ve run on, I’ve left my other lad, whoever he was, I don’t know the name of who I was manacled to, I don’t think he was one of our group at all, not one of our crew certainly, and so eventually we arrived back in what we believed to be the prison camp, we now know it was a five kilometre run from when they attacked us, and we do know that the worst lad had sixty something bayonet wounds in his backside, prodded, not stabbed, prodded
AM: What where, what were the German guards doing, just letting them do it?
RT: No, they were the ones that were doing it
AM: Right, okay, so they were the guards who the young lads, were the ones, yeah
RT: They were the guards. The documents now say that they wanted us to escape and that on the edge of the woods was machine guns, that’s what the big books now record, we never saw any of that. We stuck together, not because we wanted to stick together, we were just following one another. Now, when we got to this camp, it wasn’t a camp, it was the outside of a camp, there was, we had to go in with a, what you get at a wedding, with a, soldiers, a guard of honour with the soldiers
AM: Oh, yeah, yeah
RT: Who bit you, prodded you, made sure that nobody had got anything, even a toothbrush, and then for some days, we were in this camp, with no huts, sleeping at night on the floor, and outside was a great pile of all our gear. Eventually that got shared out amongst us, toothbrushes, whatever, anything, and it took a few weeks before huts were made
AM: What month are we in now, is it, are we still in winter?
RT: No, this was July
AM: So, we’ve moved back through, yeah, with everything
RT: It was just after the invasion
AM: Of course, in forty-four, yeah
RT: So, the weather is much better, although there was a very nasty thunderstorm where one of, because before we got proper huts we had what we called dog kennels, they were like little sheds about five foot tall, four foot six tall, about ten people could lie on the floor, so at night we’d get into those. One night there was a terrible thunderstorm, two of the huts got struck by lightning, two or three prisoners got killed by the lightning, that must all be documented
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Over a few more weeks, the Russian prisoners, they were like slaves, and they built a proper prison camp and we went into our compound and the facilities there were quite reasonable, a massive toilet block, seventy-two seat toilet block, and so on, and which the sludge of the toilets had to be moved everyday by the Russians
[unknown]: [background talking]
AM: [inaudible] yeah
RT: With their oxen carts, they used to suck it up with a little explosion that caused it to
AM: Okay we’re paused, hang on
RT: Have we stopped?
[unknown]: [inaudible] I just said
[unknown voices]
[unknown] Just a little nibble, its ready but we’re having it indoors
AM: Right
[unknown]: Not bringing it out here
AM: Oh, we’ll come in, can we come in when we’re done?
[unknown]: Do you want to finish all that and then come in?
AM: Yeah, can we?
[unknown]: Yeah okay, fair enough
AM: Alright, right then
[Unknown] [laughter] I hope you are not going into too much detail Ronald?
AM: No, you’re not its wonderful
[unknown] I’m sat here listening and
[unknown] [inaudible] [laughter]
AM: So, cut you off in your prime, off you go again
RT: Anyway, we were in [unclear] which becomes a very reasonable sort of camp, the main occupation, was the guards trying to count us, every day. Every day we’d be forced out of our, I mean at night time, the huts are all on legs, dogs are underneath them, to avoid escaping. You do your own cooking on a little bit of a stove in there with your ration of potatoes or your twenty eighth of a loaf every day, a slice of bread
AM: And if they’re on legs you can’t dig tunnels?
RT: Not easily, you, et cetera, et cetera, and so on, and then in the daytime, they would force us out while they searched the huts and then they would do a count, somebody would manage to sneak through there and spoil the count for them
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: This went on all the time. Is he a bomber? Oh no, he’s just a passenger thing, yes. Have you got him recorded?
AM: Yeah, be alright, as long as it doesn’t drop anything on us
RT: It isn’t too long now, and we coming to the end of January, this is now nineteen forty five
AM: Forty five
RT: And the Russian front comes again, and this time the same routine, but instead of the ship or the train, we just set off walking and it goes on from the sixth of February until I get liberated on about the sixteenth of April
AM: Okay, how did you get liberated?
RT: The British army. By then we’d walked back to [unclear] which is a big, nowadays well-known place, it was so crowded that our column were told they had to go back again, and our column did leave and went back the way they come, most of my crew went with them, but Dibben, the pilot and I, went into sick bay, lay on the floor and said we were too sick to move, and we just stayed there, two days later we were liberated by the British army. We knew the army was getting close because we could see the searchlights in the sky
AM: Who was it that sent the others back?
RT: Oh
AM: Germans or?
RT: Germans
AM: The Germans, right
RT: And, the people in charge of the camp, because the camp was run by Sergeant Major Lord who was a big disciplinarian who had been captured at Arnhem
AM: Right
RT: And whilst I was in [unclear] a British soldier took me into the town to show me the little village, first day out of the prison camp, [unclear] and who should I meet? But Ken Pugsley, the lad with flat feet, who’d been captured at Arnhem as a prisoner and was in the same prison camp. I met him in Germany [emphasis] [laughs]
AM: Five years later
RT: Absolutely. But, on the march, I developed frostbite, I just couldn’t walk [inaudible]
AM: In your feet?
RT: Yeah, I couldn’t keep a, shouldn’t, whether it was those army boots from
AM: Americans
RT: Americans, which were never going, the right size or whatever, but anyway, and so the Germans [unclear] took me on a work cart and with a soldier, put me on a train, took me to a Belgium workers camp, dropped me off, and for seven or eight days, I was fed by a little Belgium school master
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Until he died last year, he corresponded [inaudible words] and a Serbo-Croat prisoner operated on my foot with his penknife which eventually, to release the pus, to allow the thing to get out. They put me on a dressing, on about the seventh, eighth day, we’re now into March, the German soldier arrives back, takes me on the train, puts me back with my crew on the march in a snowstorm with a cardboard box on my foot which lasted about
AM: About a day?
RT: No, not quite
AM: [inaudible]
RT: And so on, and so then, there we are back on the march again until we eventually
AM: It’s a strange mentality isn’t it, that they’d come, dropped you off, get you fixed up, bring you back
RT: Yep
AM: And get you to exactly where you’d been
RT: Now, when I recorded this in my film, I said, that the Germans with their efficiency, took me back to wherever the column had got to, but I now know from looking at my other documents, that for eight days the column stayed in th same place
AM: Oh
RT: Because all the roads ahead, were full up with other prisoners
AM: Right
RT: And, population escaping from the Russians, and so there was nowhere for us, so we are stuck
AM: Between a rock and a hard place
RT: Between the few farms. We had a prisoner on a bicycle, he was known as Percy Caruthers, he was allowed, and he spoke good German, he was a pilot, he was allowed to ride ahead contacting farmers to see if they would put up some prisoners overnight in their barns, provide food or hot water, and because no farm could take eight hundred, he would probably find about five farms in an area, and he would issue a document to say you helped British prisoners of war, and which would stand them in good stead with whoever liberated them, okay and so on, because we’re talking now about Poles and Germans, and all sorts of people because of the war and whatever, and that was the way it was, you know, so eventually I’m liberated
AM: So, you meet the British?
RT: Meet the British and within a few days I’d been fumigated, flown back home and then I was put for two years in Cosford Hospital because of, I was very [unclear] I had no nutrition and I was suffering from dysentery, you know, couldn’t hold food or whatever
AM: Two weeks, so you were two years in, two years did you say?
RT: No, two weeks
AM: Two weeks, I thought you said two years?
RT: No. And I left there on the seventh of May and was home for VE Day, whereas the rest of the crew
AM: They’d had to go backwards
RT: Gone back. They weren’t liberated until after VE Day
AM: Right
RT: And so on, they were, so we arrived back home, erm, even the little ambulance that took me from the airfield down in Hertfordshire to Cosford, called my Mother’s house to let her see me in the back of the, it wasn’t an ambulance, it was sort of a little canvas thing, you know and so on, that was in the middle of the night, because
AM: Did she have advanced warning that you were going to turn up?
RT: No, no, they knocked at the door
AM: [gasps]
RT: And said, ‘we’ve got your son out here’, you know, that would be the first she knew that we’d been liberated and of course it was before the end of the war, and so. And then we, I stayed in the airforce for about a year, the airforce didn’t want me to leave until my future was ascertained. Now, you know about my background of mucking about, this, that and the other, whilst I’d been apprenticed to the carpenter, the bit I fancied was the drawing office, so I’d arranged to get a training course to the draughtsman, and until that training course came through, the airforce kept me on
AM: Right
RT: I was a warrant officer, I got a good salary, I had a nice little flat in Scarborough, I only had to stay in Scarborough long enough to find some prizes for the spa dance every Saturday, and once I’d got my spot prizes I could go home and come back the next week, so
AM: Were you on your own?
RT: Yeah, on my own, yes me on my own with a little flat in Scarborough
AM: Not booking in anywhere or?
RT: No, no, eventually they transferred me to the drawing office at RAF Wittering, but nobody in that drawing office seemed to want, so I used to turn up there on a Monday morning and then catch the first lorry along the main road back to Birmingham for the rest of the week, you know, because they didn’t want me and the airforce were trying to help me. Eventually, my training came, I did my nine months of training and then, for the first job I went to, I was well trained, first job I went to was a good firm, I stayed with them for thirty-three years
AM: Blimey
RT: Yeah, changing jobs all the way through, as a sort of promotion, a good job, that’s where I met Freda
AM: That’s where you met Freda
RT: She worked there, yeah, so we’ve been together not for fourteen years, but for sixty-one years
AM: Sixty something
RT: And so, yeah. Now, when I retired my story vanishes then, I have nothing to do, not true, I met Louis Ure in London nine years after the war, but apart from that, apart from sending Christmas cards to the crew, I had no contact with the crew until I retired, when I retired I went up into Yorkshire to a place called the Rocking Horse shop, because I’d planned to make a rocking horse for my oldest, I was still using my apprenticeship with carpentry
AM: Carpentry
RT: I had always been a bit, you know, and all these little side tables you see there, all of this is, and sheds, fences, all these fences and green house, all that’s is stuff I’ve made, and so, I go to the rocking horse shop and it’s in a place called Holme-on-Spalding-Moor
AM: Yes
RT: Which was twinned to Melbourne. So, I go into the local pub which is called the Bombers Arms which we used to use from Melbourne, and on the wall, was a chart showing that 10 Squadron had just had the 10 Squadron Association dinner, and my pilots name and the bomb aimers name were on there, so I contact the publican and he said, there’s a man at Elvington air museum
[unknown background talking]
RT: Who does Tuesdays and Thursdays, whatever, he’ll be on tomorrow, the secretary to this association. So, I stayed the night in the pub with Freda, I’ve got me bits for my rocking horse, and I go to Elvington, the man on the door says, by the time you get back to Birmingham
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: Your crew will be in touch with you, and they was
AM: And they were
RT: And the first reunion was within three weeks, it was at the Prisoners of War Association called Creaky Corps at, who were the people who were in that boat down the Baltic
AM: Yeah
RT: And that became Creaky Corps, Percy Caruthers, the man with the bike, was the chairman, and so, they had, they had a reunion every year, as did 10 Squadron, so within three weeks, we were meeting up in Wellingborough, and we went to Sywell where Percy Caruthers had been trained as a pilot, we always went back there, to the Aviator, a big hotel, and for twenty years we went to those things and when Percy Caruthers was feeling, he’s going to pack up soon, I became the vice chairman because nobody else would take it on, and shortly afterwards, Percy died, and so we went to our first meeting, and the first job I did was to say, I’m not the right bloke to be this thing, I want somebody who really wants to be it, we found another bloke, he came the chairman and he continued, and it went on, you know, he did well, he did well, it didn’t last too many years because the people were dying off, and so, and because 10 Squadron kept going
[loud aircraft noise]
RT: And, Freda and I went to 10 Squadron’s hundredth anniversary this year, we won’t go again [unclear and inaudible words]
AM: How many of the original [inaudible] war veterans were there?
RT: There were one or two including, including ground crew
AM: Right
RT: But nobody that we knew, not one of the people that we used to see year in and year out, and so on, because 10 Squadron is still flying and because they’re still flying, they’ve still got old boys who were youngsters compared to us
AM: Yeah, they were old boys but not as old as you
RT: And, some of their sons and daughters are now, you know, they had to ballot to see who could go
AM: Right
RT: Freda and I, and the pilot’s widow wanted to go and we all got tickets, and we went and stayed in Burford, we did, all the years we used to go there, we used to stay in a pub in a little village called Broadwell, which had five bedrooms, and there were five of us with our ladies
AM: Brilliant
RT: And, for years, and then this publican retired himself, and the people buying it didn’t keep it open as a pub, they shut it down for two years then opened it up as a Swiss restaurant and it failed, so it’s probably derelict now, the house, we are still in touch with the publican who lives down in Devon, you know, et cetera. But that is the story
AM: Okay
RT: As far as the war goes, you know
AM: Wonderful
RT: But the, as I say, the big story is the twenty years that we met after retirement
AM: And enjoyed
RT: Twice a year
AM: Looked back and
RT: And we always went to the reunions and we always stayed another couple of days and we, ah
AM: [Laughs]
RT: And it’s amazing that the things that they, the pilot Dibben and the navigator, the navigator eventually became a publican
AM: Right
RT: And his pub was ever so close to Dibben’s house, so every Friday night, Dibben and the publican told all their audience, related the war
AM: Open the hangar doors [inaudible]
RT: And when Louis and Bob and I joined them, we had to correct all their stories
[laughter]
RT: Yeah
AM: That was wonderful, that was wonderful, I’m going to switch off
RT: Yeah
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Ron Tomlin
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Annie Moody
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-08-18
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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ATomlinR150818, PTomlinR1503
Conforms To
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Pending review
Description
An account of the resource
Ron Tomlin grew up in Birmingham and was an apprentice carpenter before working in a munitions factory. He volunteered for the Air Force at 18, and after training, flew operations as a bomb aimer with 10 Squadron. His aircraft was forced to ditch in the English Channel and he became a prisoner of war. He discusses the conditions he endured before he was liberated. He became a draughtsman after the war and attended 10 Squadron reunions after his retirement.
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
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eng
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
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Great Britain
Lithuania
Atlantic Ocean--English Channel
England--Yorkshire
Lithuania--Šilutė
Format
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01:08:31 audio recording
10 Squadron
aircrew
animal
bomb aimer
bombing
crash
ditching
Dulag Luft
Halifax
prisoner of war
RAF Melbourne
sanitation
shot down
Stalag Luft 6
the long march
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/450/7970/AHarrisonR151116.1.mp3
78c4628fae306c070946abd90f7380e4
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Harrison, Richard
Richard Harrison
Dick Harrison
Description
An account of the resource
10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy.
The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-11-16
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
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Harrison, R
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
AM: Okay then so, this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command centre and Lincoln University, and today I’m with Dick Harrison in York, and what I’d like you to tell me is, first of all, is just date of birth and just a little bit about your family and your, your upbringing, what your parents did, that sort of thing.
RH: Yeah, I was born of the 5th of February 1924, I was born in Köln en Rhine, Deutschland, Cologne, Germany and er yeah, Dad English, Mother German, we came back to England in I think it was 1926, I was two years old.
AM: How did your Dad meet your Mum then if she was German?
RH: He was in the army of occupation.
AM: In? In Cologne or?
RH: In Germany.
AM: In Germany, yeah.
RH: Yeah, because he’d been on the Western Front from 1915 to 18, he was a regular soldier when he was in Cologne and various other places in the Rhineland, but he met my Mother in Cologne.
AM: Right.
RH: I think they were married there in 1922, something like that.
AM: So, what did he do when you came back to England? What did your parents do?
RH: Well he was a regular soldier and he carried on being a soldier.
AM: Right. Right through, yeah?
RH: Yeah until 19, yeah 1936.
AM: Oh blimey, right.
RH: He left the army and became a civil servant.
AM: Ah, me too, well that’s another story.
[laughter]
RH: And me too.
[laughter]
AM: So, tell me a bit about your school years then.
RH: School years, well Dad’s camp was near Salisbury, Winterbourne, so I went to a primary school in Winterbourne, and although people say today, you know, how good the schools were back then, this was a truly appalling school [laughs] well, and from there, I can’t remember what it was called, you sat the exam when you were eleven. And from there I went to Bishops school in Salisbury which was a local grammar school, then unfortunately my Dad left the army, the civil service post was in Gloucestershire, so we had to move to Gloucestershire, and I went to and I had to transfer schools, from a very [emphasis] good and excellent school in Salisbury to certainly a below par one in Gloucester.
AM: Right.
RH: Near Gloucester.
AM: What age were you when you left?
RH: When I left what?
AM: When you left school.
RH: Sixteen.
AM: Did you do schools certificate and everything?
RH: No, I didn’t.
AM: No.
RH: No, I had enough of that school.
AM: Right. [laughs] So what did you do when you left school?
RH: Worked in an office.
AM: Yeah, doing?
RH: Pardon?
AM: Doing just normal administrative?
RH: Yes.
AM: Office work.
RH: Yes, just clerical work, that’s all.
AM: Yeah.
RH: It was a company that, it was a [unclear]company so I was dealing with invoices and things like that.
AM: Right. So what year are we up to now? Sixteen, nineteen, I’m just trying to work my own arithmetic out, if you were sixteen?
RH: I left school in 1940.
AM: Right, so the war had started.
RH: Yeah and I was already involved.
[background noise]
AM: Right, and I’m looking now at the County and City of Gloucester air raid precautions, and this is to certify that mister Richard Harrison completed his course in anti-gas training, under the auspices of County and City of Gloucester air raid precautions central authority and has acquired sufficient knowledge of anti-gas measures to act as a member of the public ARP service. Tell me about that then, what was that like?
RH: Erm, and that’s what I—
AM: Oh, I’ve missed a bit, nature of the course attended was—
RH: Was a cycle messenger.
AM: Right, what did that mean?
RH: We were about ten miles north of Bristol, so when they were attacking Bristol, you know I was very interested, the first time I saw flak [laughs] but—
AM: What was that like then?
RH: Well, I mean as a kid it’s all very interesting, isn’t it? I mean we, the village hall was our local ARP post, and every Friday night that was my job, even when I was at school, every Friday night, get there for six or seven o’clock, I think it was, until six, seven o’clock the next morning, with my bike ready to go anywhere. And all over Bristol, it was a fantastic sight really was, searchlights, flak, German bombers coming over lit up, one crashed about a mile away from us here, but no it was quite a, quite a sight, and when they attacked Avonmouth and the oil tanks were set on fire, the whole of the horizon was red, yeah amazing sight.
AM: So, where were you sent off cycling? Taking what sort of messages?
RH: [sighs] Well we was just, I can’t remember the details. I remember one, one regular one was to cycle down to the pub and bring them back a pint of cider or something, and that was a regular run.
[laughter]
AM: Right, so the message was, how many drinks?
RH: Yeah.
AM: So, so when, so that was it, you did your cycling in your messenger training.
RH: Yes.
AM: And then what?
RH: What?
AM: What made you join the RAF? Oh, what came next should I say with regards to?
RH: The Home Guard.
AM: Right.
RH: I joined that when, yeah before I was seventeen I joined that and despite what people say and that, because there’s that film—
AM: Dad’s Army
RH: Dad’s Army. I mean, it was one of the most useful things ever because I was in a platoon where the officer commanding was World War one soldier, my Father was a platoon sergeant, World War one soldier, there were several of them, I mean when I went into the RAF, foot drill, arms drill, using a rifle, shooting on the range, using a machine gun.
AM: You’d already done it.
RH: It was easy, yeah, it was easy. I also joined the Air Training Corps about the same time.
AM: Right.
RH: So, at one time I had three balls in the air [laughs] ARP, Home Guard, Air Training Corps.
AM: And [unclear]
RH: And in addition to that, I took a St John’s, St John ambulance first aid course and got a certificate for that, so—
AM: Right.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Blimey. So, when you joined the RAF, but I think Gary said RAF regiment?
RH: Pardon?
AM: I think Gary said you joined the RAF regiment?
[phone rings]
RH: Excuse me.
[interview paused]
RH: Where were we?
AM: So, where were we?
GR: You were juggling three balls, ATC.
AM: We were juggling all those balls with your ATC, and your Home Guard.
RH: In the end I packed up the, one of them became civil defence from ARP, so I packed, I packed that up, I couldn’t get—
AM: Right.
RH: Otherwise I was chasing round four nights a week [laughs] and weekends with the Home Guard.
AM: And working in your office.
RH: And working as well.
AM: And working as well.
RH: Yeah.
AM: So, you’re coming up to eighteen, why the RAF? Where did you join? What was, what was you’re, what was it like?
RH: For a young lad I mean it’s, it’s just the glamour of the thing. King and country had nothing at all to do with it [laughs] don’t say that—
[laughter]
AM: We’ll cut that out.
RH: All I wanted, well I mean, one saw a war films didn’t you, ‘target for the night’ and all the rest of it. But unfortunately, I had a heart condition and my, on my medical records which I saw, because I wanted to go into aircrew, I wanted to be a wireless operator.
AM: Right.
RH: Wireless operator [unclear] because I’d been, Father had taught my brother and I morse code, and in the house, he’d rigged up two keys and we used to use that, even when we were ten or eleven years old we knew the morse code, and in the Air Training Corps, when the CO discovered I already knew morse, I became the morse code instructor for the squadron.
[laughter]
RH: And, but when I went for the medical, I think I was, temporarily unfit for aircrew duties, they said that would right itself eventually, and I remember being interviewed by the, this officer, he said, ‘well, I’m sorry,’ he said, ‘ that you’re fit for ground crew duties but you’re not fit for aircrew duties,’ I said, ‘right, in that case I don’t want to join the RAF, I’m going to join the army,’ [laughs] because I was fit enough for the army, and I had a mate, a school friend who was up at Catterick driving a tank, saying how great it was and I could picture myself in that, so I said, ‘I’m going to join the army, the Armour Corps,’ ‘no you’re not,’ he said, ‘no you’re not,’ he said, ‘we’re not going to waste, what was it twelve months or more Air Training Corps and then you go in the army,’ he said, ‘you’ll be called up,’ and that’s what happened. I got, yeah, before Christmas it was, 1942.
AM: Right.
RH: And I got my call up papers and went to Penarth in South Wales where they sorted you out, and because I’d been a clerk in civvy street, I went through trade tests, maths, English, I could type, type writing, book keeping, and that took all morning, and then at the end of it they said, ‘alright you’re now a trade group for clerk general duties,’ but it did mean that whereas a lad going in without any trade at all was getting three shillings a day, I got four shillings and threepence a day because I was a trade [laughs] and of course guys like one of the guys I sort of chummed up with, he had been a metal worker, and I can’t remember what trade he went into, but I know he was getting sort of, six shillings and something a day because he was a group one trade as against group four. Right, so what do you want next then?
AM: Ooh, well, what happened next? Tell me about it. What were you actually doing then? So, you got three a day—
RH: I can think, in my eight weeks I think it was, square bashing and then I was posted to RAF Tempsford in Bedfordshire.
AM: Right.
RH: And, that was the base for the special duties squadrons, 161 and 138, and they were dropping supplies and people for the resistance.
AM: Right, okay.
RH: And it was all top secret, I mean I suppose I didn’t know what they were doing.
GR: There was Maurice Buckmaster and Vera Atkins.
RH: Well, maybe so, Wing Commander Pickard, DSO, a couple of bars and all the rest of it, he was, he was the C.O. and, but I knew something about aircraft, and so what struck me was these Halifax’s, they had no mid upper turret, and I thought well that’s strange, and bomb trolleys were parked alongside the hangar with grass growing through them, so they weren’t being used [laughs] but no one told you anything. Eventually one of the guys in the office said, ‘Dick, do you know what we are doing?’ and this was after a month or so, I said, ‘yeah, I reckon you’re dropping agents into, into France,’ I said, because I had to do a what, a sort of duty every now and again, overnight, man the phone and so forth, and during that time, you would see a couple of black saloon cars going, going by, and they were going over to, what I discovered later, was a farm, an old farm where they were kitted up before they did their jumps. And, yeah, very secret, so I remember a guy crashed on take-off and they were all killed, and that night or the next night the father was calling and I answered the phone, and I said, ‘I’m sorry I can’t tell you anything,’ you know, ‘was he on the raid to Berlin?’ I said, ‘I’m sorry,’ [laughs] I knew what had happened to him but wasn’t allowed to say. And another little story, no need to record, as I say it was all top secret, this Halifax was missing, so that was seven guys as well, so into the HQ, came their, the NCOs, their pay books and in the pay book was a next of kin listed. Now the wireless operator in that crew had listed his next of kin as a girl in Sandy village, which was four or five miles—
AM: Yeah, I know where you mean.
RH: Away, you know?
AM: Yeah, I know exactly where you mean.
RH: You know where I mean? So, the Padre and another officer went down to give her the bad news, sort of thing he was missing, but I mean I wasn’t witness to this, I only heard about it afterwards, and apparently when they gave her the bad news, she said, ‘well he’ll be alright wont he?’ they said, ‘what do you mean?’ ‘well I mean, they are dropping supplies to the French resistance and they’ll —
AM: Oh God.
RH: Get him back. Which they didn’t. While I was there, not him, but while I was there a guy came back, but the only thing I saw was her arriving with an RAF police escort in a car, and she was wheeled in to see Wing Commander Pickard, and I suppose he read the riot act to her, keep your mouth shut.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And some years ago when I was caravanning down there, I went back to see if I could get onto Tempsford, but it was all wired off, but you could see the huts in the background, and I met, a local woman came out of her house, and as a wee child she remembered this place and she said, ‘you see that hedge there?’ she said, ‘we lived up on the hill and we weren’t allowed to come below that hedge, no civilians were allowed below that hedge line,’ it was so, so secret.
AM: It’s amazing isn’t it.
RH: On one occasion Wing Commander Pickard, flying a Hudson, that’s that one up there, that was—
AM: I’m looking at, I’m looking at models here.
RH: Yeah, that was his aircraft, and he’d taken people down to the south of France to a landing ground down there, and when it came to take off, he’d bogged down, because it was just a field, and so they had to turn out local farm horses and so forth and pull him onto hard ground so he could take off. I remember next morning in the HQ, one of the guys said to me, ‘have you seen the CO’s Hudson take off?’ I said, ‘no,’ he said, ‘well go and look at hangar so and so,’ and there it was parked up outside, still with mud up into the engines themselves, and he got a, I think he had three DSO’s, was it, Wing Commander Pickard? He was shot down in the end on another raid, yeah. So, there we are, what’s next then?
AM: So that’s that, well you tell me. What came next?
RH: I must have been the worst clerk general duties that the RAF ever had, because I wasn’t a bit interested in what I was doing [laughs] and I was always on the—
AM: Wanting to be up there.
RH: Back in front of the adjutant flight sergeant being given a lecture about something I’d done wrong. Then one day two guys came into the office and I knew they’d been in north Africa, and they said, ‘can we have a form to volunteer to go overseas,’ I said, ‘but you’ve only just come back.’ [emphasis]
AM: Two aircrew this?
RH: Pardon?
AM: Two aircrew you talking about?
RH: No, they weren’t aircrew.
AM: Oh right, okay still—
RH: They were two groundcrew. Said, ‘we’ve only just come back,’ and I said, ‘you want to go back out there again?’ ‘well, [emphasis] England, terrible place isn’t it, full of Yanks and all the rest, no, the sooner we get out of here the better,’ so I thought, what a good idea.
[laughter]
GR: Get me one of these forms.
[laughter]
RH: Get me one of those forms, yeah. And then I had a medical and this medical officer said, you know, as I said to you on the phone yesterday, he said, ‘right, condition no longer, so I’ll put you forward shall I, for the aircrew medical?’ I said, ‘no, no thanks I want to go overseas.’
[laughter]
RH: Did you read that letter?
GR: This one?
RH: Yeah, the one, the regiment one?
GR: Yes, I’m reading it, yeah.
AM: I’ll take a copy afterwards. So, you went overseas rather than aircrew?
RH: Yes, I volunteered to go overseas, it was all very quick, in fact I was sent on what they called, embarkation leave.
AM: Hmm, hmm.
GR: Yeah.
RH: And I think that was one week or two, and while I was at home in Gloucestershire, a telegram came telling me to report back to Tempsford, and I’d only been home two or three days, and so I went back and there was my posting notice, and I think, I thought the RAF were taking their revenge on me for not carrying on with aircrew because they posted me to an RAF Regiment squadron. And believe me in 1943, to be in the RAF Regiment, you know, I mean today, yes, they’ve got a good reputation, but that was really the backend of everything. And there were about a dozen of us, tradesmen, clerks, cooks, vehicle mechanics, armourers, wireless guys and so forth, and all resentful [laughs] at being posted to the regiment.
AM: Where was that though? Where were you posted to?
RH: Oh yeah, that was near Peterborough, near Peterborough. And, when I arrived there, there was a corporal clerk in the, what do you call it? Orderly room, in the orderly room. And as soon as I arrived, he sent off a signal under the adjutant’s signature, under who was away at the time, to the airman’s records at Innsworth in Gloucestershire saying, that Corporal so and so, can’t remember his name, was unfit for overseas duty. And so about, a couple of days later a signal came posting him out, didn’t get off kindly. [laughs]
AM: So where, where from, where did you go from Peterborough?
RH: Overseas.
AM: Yeah, but where though? Whereabouts?
RH: Sicily.
AM: Sicily.
RH: We went to, yeah it was a, it took a month altogether, although I think it was three weeks to Algiers on a troop ship as a convoy—
AM: I was going to say—
RH: As it was, but— Yeah, although in my letter I said, not eventful, in fact it was interesting at times because a U-boat got in amongst the convoy, and there were destroyers dashing up and down dropping depth charges. [laughs]
AM: It’s probably quite exciting when you are eighteen, nineteen.
RH: It was, when you are a kid, when you are a kid.
AM: You’re still a teenager, really aren’t you?
RH: Yeah, I remember saying to one of the seamen on our, on our troop ship, you know, ‘why is that, why are they flying a black pennant?’ he said, ‘that’s because they’ve detected a boat,’ he said, ‘they’ve detected a U, U-boat.’ Then we went to Algiers, and then we left Algiers, still didn’t know where we were going at that time. And then, I was in what was called the headquarters flight, which all the tradesmen were in that flight and we were called up for a briefing by the adjutant, and then we knew we were going to Sicily, and there were maps passed round for us to look at, and we were going to takeover, it was a light anti-aircraft squadron by the way, it had a twenty-millimetre cannon.
AM: Okay.
RH: We were going to take over defence of the Gerbini airfield near Cantania in Sicily, and that was the plan. But unfortunately, the Germans, you know, didn’t know what our plan was—
[laughter]
RH: And so, when we got to Sicily they were still there. [laughs] And er, yeah, we landed, we went to Malta first, I think we stayed there overnight or a couple of nights, and then we went to Sicily, and it was over the, over the side, down scrambling nets onto the landing craft and then onto a little [old?] pier sort of thing. And then we formed up and marched up into an olive grove and we were there for about a week. We were waiting for our trucks to arrive and the cannon, but they’d all been sunk. It was funny when we were en route from Algiers to Malta, there was a, ‘boom,’ bang and a great column of smoke over in the distance, that was the ship going down, and we heard later that was our ship [laughs] with all the trucks on.
AM: Blimey.
RH: So when we got to, then we were posted and moved to Lentini and that was a new, new landing ground, and we were sent there for anti-parachute troop duties. The Germans had dropped paratroopers into Sicily, not, not straight into combat, they dropped them as reinforcements to the guys who were already there.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And, but some of them were dropped too far south, and when the 8th Army had pushed up and they were left behind.
AM: I’m just looking, thinking about the geography, so you’re in the south of Sicily?
RH: Pardon?
AM: I’m just thinking about the geography of Sicily, so the Germans were on the island?
RH: Oh yeah, and eventually, eventually they had four divisions there. They had three to, three to begin with and then, then they dropped in two regiments from the 1st Parachute Division, and they were dropped in as reinforcements, behind their own lines. But they were the guys who eventually who stopped the 8th Army, you know, getting any further. But, and so when we got to Lentini, they were forming patrols of about a dozen guys and an NCO, and they [unclear] [laughs] searched the local olive groves and go through, and as I said in, in the letter, you know, God help them if they come across any German para’s because I’m sure we would have been sending out the first missing in action signals.
[laughter]
RH: Because they wouldn’t have stood a chance, they wouldn’t have stood a chance against those guys. So, that was that.
AM: So, how long were you there for, on Sicily?
RH: Pardon?
AM: How long were you on Sicily for? Ish?
RH: Yeah, we landed there a week after the invasion began, July, August, and then, when did we go into Italy? September the 3rd? So, we went into Italy on September the 10th, something like that.
AM: Right, so, so the Germans had been pushed back?
RH: They evacuated.
AM: They evacuated.
RH: Yeah, they got everything away, they got everything away, they had a defensive line sort of thing, and they just took it step by step back, and meanwhile they, I think forty thousand men all their guns and tanks, everything they managed to get across the Straits of Messina. And, [pause] the regiment squadron, we were on, we moved from Lentini to the Scordia landing ground, again it’s only a rough strip through, through the fields and that was the American 57th Fighter Group. They were equipped with P-40 Warhawks and they used to go out day after day trying to stop the Germans evacuating the—
AM: Getting across the Straits.
RH: Their, their stuff. And that was the first time I’d come across American, Americans and they were great guys, [emphasis] they really were. And later on, we were on the same airfield, when I was in aircrew and again, you know, they really are first, first class blokes, I thought.
AM: So, you’re on, we’re on the push now, what, what month did we say we were? August? What, what—
GR: No, September into Italy.
AM: And September into Italy.
RH: September into Italy.
AM: So you—
RH: I’ll just tell this little story while we—
AM: Go on, yes.
RH: At Scordia, I mean they were suffering losses because I mean they were having to make quite low level attacks with their fighter bombers. And we were watching these guys coming back, and, and one of them he came in rather high, banged [emphasis] down onto the ground, up in the air, bang [emphasis] and then turned over onto his, onto his back, so the pilot was trapped under, underneath. But I mean, they were very, very quick, in no time there was a, the er, a fire tender, an ambulance, and a mobile crane. And the mobile crane lifted the aircraft up, turned it over—
AM: [inaudible]
RH: And they forced the canopy open and out [laughs] got this young lieutenant, stepped on the wing, walked away a few paces, reached into his overalls, pulled out a cigar—
AM: [gasps] Oh no.
RH: Lit it and went on walking.
[laughter]
RH: And I thought, well there’s, there’s a nerve for you, [laughs] there’s a nerve for you. But on the other side of the coin, I remember, I used to like going out into their dispersal and watch them come in. And, they’d taken off—
[background noise]
RH: And then one of them left the formation, came round, landed and then taxied up to where we were, we were, sort of thing, switched off the engine, pilot got out and he walked over to the, the er. There was a sergeant who was a sort of an engineer mechanic, whatever, and I can’t remember the words after all these years what the pilot said, but he was complaining that there was a fault in the, in the engine, there was something, something wrong, and then he walked away. And I said the sergeant, I said, ‘what do you thinks wrong with that then?’ Now, you’ll have to excuse the language.
AM: It’s alright. [laughs]
RH: He said, ‘nothing he’s just shit scared,’ he said.
[laughter]
AM: Fair enough.
RH: So then we went into Italy, [pause] now tell you, this was a regiment [laughs] with a squadron, and so I knew [emphasis] very well, being, being in the HQ, the squadron had been told they had to go to Crotone landing ground which was sort of under the, that part of the—
AM: The heel.
RH: Italian boot.
AM: The heel.
RH: And of course, and we were following a Canadian division along the coast. They were way, way, way ahead, we never ever saw them. When we got to Crotone landing ground, nothing there at all because it had already been evacuated. Now the same time as the 8th Army landed on the toe and moved up on the north coast, the Canadians were moving along the south coast and the British 1st Airborne Division came in by sea to land at Taranto to push up on the Adriatic coast. And when we were somewhere west of, of Taranto we came across the Airborne guys, and, and they were stopping our convoy. Now in our convoy would be about a dozen three tonne four by four Bedfords, three or four jeeps, two Italian trucks that we had pinched, stolen and, and motorcycles and so forth. Yeah, we spotted these Italian trucks in a little town called Catanzaro down on the toe and the C.O. had seen them, two big Fiat trucks, and so he said to our corporal fitter, engine fitter, ‘do you reckon you can get those going?’ he said, ‘yeah right.’ So sometime around midnight he and another mechanic went out and started them and drove them up the road a bit and then we found them [unclear]
AM: Appropriated them. [laughs]
RH: And then painted them in RAF camouflage and off we went. And then so, yeah, we met the guys with the, with the red berets and from what they were saying is, ‘go careful, keep your heads down because there are German para snipers in the area,’ [laughs] and I thought to myself, we shouldn’t be here, we had no business to be there with just our, just the C.O. You know, woo, let’s just going, you know so think you can imagine we were some kind of Panzer unit or something. And then we drove into Bari, you know that?
AM: Yeah.
RH: Well as we went to Bari, there were people on the pavements, waving and cheering and then passing out bottles of wine.
[laughter]
RH: And I thought, well this can’t be right, and, and where are our guys? I didn’t see any British soldiers at all, and we drove through Bari, and I can’t remember the name of the town now, but about ten miles north of Bari on the main coast road, we came into this little township, and again, [emphasis] people came out and they were waving and saying oh—
AM: Italian civilians you mean?
RH: Yeah, [emphasis] Italian civilians, I thought it’s got to be something, it’s got to be wrong you know, and then the word quickly came down the, the line, the Germans left here this morning.
[laughter]
RH: Well that decided the C.O., all the trucks were turned round. [laughs]
GR: You were the spear guard you were, you were out in front.
[laughter]
RH: We go back to, we went back to Bari, and he looked at his map. Bari airport which was an Italian air force base then, we’ll go there, and we’ll the, we’ll take over the airfield, we had no business—
AM: Is this just you the RAF Regiment, you’re talking here?
RH: Yeah.
AM: Right.
RH: No business at all to be, to be there. And we drove up to the entrance and there were gates and as we drove up, there were armed Italians carrying their funny little carbine rifles, they shut the gate. Now I wasn’t there I didn’t hear what, what was said but they refused to let us in. So, then the order came down the line, ‘get your rifles out men and load them, and stand by the trucks.’ And of course, in our headquarters truck, where are the rifles?
[laughter]
AM: We’re laughing now, but I bet you weren’t laughing at the time.
RH: Scrambling, put ten rounds in the magazine, get out the truck. Meanwhile the Italians, a lot of them, had crossed the road and were in the olive grove in that side, so I thought, God, we are going to be between two lots here, but I think that fact that they saw a hundred guys or more getting out the trucks with their rifles ready, and that decided the Italians to open the gate and let us in.
[laughter]
RH: Yeah, so.
AM: Blimey.
GR: So you’re fighting your way up Italy?
AM: And your C.O. wanted you to be fighting your way up.
RH: Pardon?
AM: And your C.O. wanted you to be fighting your way up.
RH: And the, what do you call it? SWO, he was, he was another sort of, you know, let’s get up there and we’ll, all the rest of it. But, yeah then we went up to Foggia and there were several airfields there which the Germans had used, and yeah, we were, I think on two different airfields there, if I remember rightly, well airfields, landing grounds it was just a single strip. But I can’t remember anything worth reporting there. And by that time, we were subordinate to Desert Air Force, and so you’d get the daily orders from Desert Air Force. And on one they were appealing for air gunners, air gunners, now I thought right—
AM: This is it.
RH: We’ll have a go at this, and so I, you know, I applied and went to Desert Air Force headquarters to get the preliminary medical as such. And, it was, it was quite interesting, because they had my records there and the first officer to examine me, flight lieutenant or squadron leader, doctor or whatever he was, he said, ‘I can’t understand why you were failed in, a year ago,’ he said. He said, ‘there’s nothing wrong,’ and I said, ‘well it says temporarily unfit,’ ‘I can’t see nothing wrong, well, we’ll get a second opinion,’ and he called in the chief, the group captain, and he came in and checked me over, ‘yeah,’ he said, ‘no,’ he said, ‘I can’t think,’ he said, ‘why you were failed a year ago,’ he said, ‘there’s nothing wrong with your, with your heart.’ I used to think afterwards, they failed me because when they looked at my background, they realised in fact, that Mum was a German.
[laughter]
RH: I’ve thought that might be a—
GR: That’s possible.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah, yeah, possible.
RH: Yeah. Because when it came to the aircrew selection board, that was the next thing.
AM: Are you still in Italy at this point?
RH: Yeah, oh yes.
AM: Yeah.
RH: The, the aircrew selection board, and they asked, they asked that question, ‘what if you were ordered to?’ I mean there was no possibility for me to fly from Italy all the way to Cologne, but still, [laughs] They said, ‘what if you were ordered to bomb Germany, bomb something in Germany, you know, you were born there and your Mothers German, what, what if you were ordered to do that?’ [laughs] And I said, ‘I would obey orders.’ [laughs]
[laughter]
RH: Yes, so then there was, I was still with the Regiment Squadron, but I mean they hadn’t, they hadn’t fired a shot in anger and they were anti-aircraft, there was no need for them, so they found a new job for the RAF Regiment. That was to go up to the, our artillery gun line which would be a three, or four miles behind the front line, and by day if our guys were flying and bombing, they would put out smoke indicators to show where our front line was, so that our guys didn’t bomb in it. And by night they would put out flares and I was only there less than, less than, less than a week and but apparently, they did have some casualties later, later on. But, so that was it, now I went to Desert Air Force headquarters, and I had three or four weeks there, and then before I went back to the Middle East. Desert Air Force headquarters was the best posting ever I had in the RAF of a, really good guys to work with, we had an Australian flight lieutenant who was our, the C.O. of what’s called the organisation section where I worked. And he used to share his food parcels with us and he knew I was sort of going through them and I was going on for air, aircrew training and he called me in one day and he said, ‘Harrison,’ now I know this sounds like a line shoot, but he said, ‘Harrison, you’ve done a really good job here,’ he said, ‘we’re very pleased at the way you’re, you’re working.’ That’s because I had a gen, I wasn’t responsible to anyone even though I was only an airman I was doing my own, my own job, sort of thing, which was location of units.
AM: Right.
RH: And briefing people who came in asking questions about you, he said, ‘now why don’t you forget this aircrew thing,’ he said, ‘and I can guarantee,’ he said, in a few months you’ll have your first stripes,’ he said, ‘and I can see you going on from there,’ and I said, ‘no thank you, very much.’ [laughs] And so that was it, now I went back to Egypt
AM: Right. Where did you do your training, your aircrew training then?
RH: Air gunner training.
AM: Air gunner training, where did you do that?
RH: Yeah, a place called El Ballah.
AM: In, in Egypt?
RH: On the canal zone.
AM: Right. And how long, so how long were you training for?
RH: Right. [pause]
[paper rustling]
RH: You can take these away.
AM: Okay.
RH: Later. There were three six-week courses.
AM: Right.
RH: The first one was at 51 Air Gunner Initial Training School, and they’re all the subjects.
AM: Yeah.
RH: Then you had a forty-eight-hour pass into Cairo and then you came for another six weeks—
AM: Okay.
RH: At 12 Elementary Air Gunner School.
AM: Yeah.
RH: From there are all the subjects again.
AM: So, I’m looking at, I’ll, I’ll copy this, and but I’m looking at things like, different gun turrets, the Frazer Nash, the Boulton Paul, the Bristol.
RH: Yeah that’s right.
AM: Pyrotechnics, the Very pistol, the flares, forty flashes. Smoke floats?
RH: Yeah, smoke floats, yeah.
AM: Yeah, what’s a smoke float?
RH: Well it was, about, about that big and the idea was that, that in daylight, over the sea, over, over water, the navigator would ask someone to drop a smoke float, okay? And then the tail gunner, the rear gunner—
AM: Yeah, yeah.
RH: Himself. You see that smoke float and you take a bearing on it with your sight, and there’s sort of a compass ring—
AM: Right.
RH: And you say,’ okay, it’s at so many degrees,’ and then the navigator would count off so many seconds and say, ‘okay take another reading,’ so you take another reading and it shows you your drift.
AM: Right.
RH: The difference between the two readings.
AM: Yep.
RH: Yeah, smoke float by day, yeah.
AM: Oh.
RH: And that’s 13 Air Gunner school where you finally get to fly.
AM: I’m looking at this one because I was, I was going to ask you, what were, what did you actually train in? And we’ve got Avro Anson’s?
RH: Yes, it’s up there, somewhere.
AM: One of those up there? Dinghy drill. Did you all have individual dinghies at that point?
RH: No, seven-man dinghies.
AM: Because—It was a seven-man dinghy. Right.
RH: Then we trained in, in the Suez Canal, and the canal was only a couple of miles away from the, from the air field, so the instructor would tow an inflated dinghy out into the middle of the canal. And that was another, another thing and I’ve never come across it before and I’ve mentioned it to other aircrew types and they’ve never heard of this before. You had to swim fifty yards [emphasis] and if you did not swim, if you couldn’t swim that fifty yards you failed.
AM: That was it, you were out.
RH: You failed the course. So, I mean you had a life jacket on which was a damn nuisance believe me if you’ve got a Mae West and you try swim. [laughs] So you went out, two of you at a time, went out to a dinghy and righted it.
AM: Oops.
RH: Sorry. Righted it, then got into it, and then when the instructor was satisfied, when you got out you pulled the dinghy over you so it was upside down for the next pair.
AM: Right, and swam out from under it.
RH: To go out, yeah.
AM: I can’t imagine what the canal was full of?
RH: Oh yeah, [emphasis] yeah. Now and then whistles are blowing and everyone would have to get out if a ship came by. [laughs]
AM: Theres, there’s crocodiles isn’t there?
RH: No, no.
AM: Is there not? No. Alright then.
RH: There’s far more—
AM: I was thinking about horrible [unclear]
RH: Theres worse stuff floating in the canal, believe me.
AM: I can imagine.
[laughter]
AM: So, you’ve done your training.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Then what?
RH: Then we’ve went to [paper rustling] from Egypt—
AM: Hmm, hmm.
RH: To Palestine.
AM: Right.
RH: For the O T U.
AM: Right. [pause] So, I’m looking now at the, it was the 76 Operational Training Unit.
RH: That’s right.
AM: And you were on Wellington medium bombers at this point?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Tail gunner you said you were, weren’t you?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: Tail end Charlie.
RH: Yes, we formed up of, as you may know, you know, the people weren’t detailed, we all assembled in a hangar.
AM: You did the crewing up.
RH: And we sort of—
AM: No other end.
RH: Pardon?
AM: No other end, is an expression—
RH: Is it?
AM: An expression, I’ve heard.
RH: Yeah well. And Joe, the other gunner, he, he eventually found a pilot who wanted two gunners, and so we met this Eddy who came from the Midlands, and he said to us, ‘who’s best at aircraft recognition?’ and Joe said, ‘he is,’ pointing to me.
[laughter]
RH: ‘So, right you are the rear gunner then.’
AM: So that was it? That was how that was decided. But then, so when was heavy Conversion Unit, were you still in Palestine at that point?
RH: No. We went back to Egypt for it.
AM: Back to Egypt for that, right.
RH: That was only four weeks I think at that point.
AM: So this is the 1675 Heavy Conversion Unit, into B-24 Liberators.
RH: B-24 Liberator, yeah. At least we got into a decent aircraft.
AM: Yeah. What, how many crew were on that? Was there seven or more? Seven.
RH: Well, seven. We trained as a crew of seven but operationally on the squadron, you carried an extra gunner, who manned the two waist guns.
AM: Right, so there was waist guns on there?
RH: There was also these, yeah, I did two or three [unclear] trips as a beam gunner, but you were the odd job. I’ll come to that when we get to the squadron then.
AM: Alright, okay. So, carry on—
RH: Well, [unclear, interviewer speaks over]
AM: Tell me about that and what happened and any stories about the conversion unit course or on to what happened after that?
RH: I can only think of a funny story on that. Sometimes, the nose wheel of the Liberator wouldn’t come down. And so, someone would go from the flight deck, for landing on the flight deck was a pilot, the engineer, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and top gunner, six of them all on the flight deck in that area. If the nose wheel didn’t come down, there was a, a drill for it. One of them would go back into the nose and help to pull the thing down. Well, we’d been on a night exercise, and Joe our top gunner, a Lancashire lad, he always had intercom trouble. He was an electrician by trade, but he was a real jinx [emphasis] when it came to in, in, intercom. And the nose wheel hadn’t come down, so I mean I’m hearing everything on intercom, so the skipper said to, I think it was the bomb aimer Ron, ‘Ron go on down into the nose right and see if you can do it,’ and so Ron goes down there. Then the next thing I here, Ron’s on the intercom, ’no, I can’t do it and I need some help,’ ‘ah yeah, okay,’ and so the navigator is sent down. So, now there’s two of them in the nose trying to pull it—
AM: Yank the thing, yeah.
RH: And get the wheel down, and then they come back on the intercom, ‘no I can’t do it,’ so skipper, Eddy turns to Taffy our engineer and says, ‘Taff, go down and sort it, will you?’ So, Taff gets out of his seat and goes down. Theres a hatch in the flight deck that goes down into the nose. Now, Joe the top gunner, knows that the nose wheel hasn’t come down, and then his intercom goes dead. And one after another he sees the bomb aimer—
AM: Oh God.
RH: The navigator and the engineer all disappearing through that hatch down below, and what does he think? He thinks they’re all baling out. So, his seat release is a wire handle and he pulls that, drops out of his turret, goes straight through the hatch into the end of the bomb bay.
AM: Oh no.
GR: [unclear] [laughs]
RH: He just had a few bruises that was all.
AM: I was going to say, I thought you were going to say he went right through and had to pull his parachute. [laughs]
GR: Well, the thing is to anybody listening, obviously Lancaster, Halifax, B-17 all land, and land tail down, but the B-24 was one that landed, and landed with its nose up.
RH: Nose wheel
GR: The same, yeah. So, it landed, straight—
RH: Yes.
GR: As opposed to sitting back on the tail, so when you were on about the nose wheel coming down that’s—
AM: That’s why it’s important.
GR: Yeah
RH: Well, I— [unclear, interviewer speaks over]
GR: In fact that was the only bomber that, that—
RH: Yeah.
GR: The only, only four engine bomber that, that happened.
RH: If I remember rightly in HCU and I mean, I knew guys who were ahead of me and so forth, and Norman, and he came back and he came up to the truck as we were getting off it, and he said, ‘have you heard Mick Berry’s gone?’ Now, Mick Berry had been a corporal armourer and he was in our tent at gunnery school—
AM: Right.
RH: And he taught us more about the machine guns than the instructors. After all, that was his, his trade, he was a, I can still remember, he was a great [emphasis] man, he really was a good lad. And there they had, had crash landed and burst into flames, and Mick was in the mid er, top turret. Now that was held by, I think it was four bolts and it was a common fault that bang [emphasis] on, on the deck and that turret would drop out, and he was trapped and he couldn’t get out, yeah.
GR: Oh God.
RH: Mick Berry, he’s buried in the cemetery near Cairo.
AM: Oh, right. How big is it? I’m looking at a model of the Liberator here. How big is it in comparison then to the Halifax and the, and the Lancaster?
RH: [unclear] it’s a hundred and ten foot wingspan, the Liberator and the Hal, well Lanc, well it’s just over a hundred feet, in total.
AM: I was going to say, it looks a bit bigger to me.
RH: Yeah.
AM: On the, on the model, I know [unclear]
GR: Well at the same scales, they’re actually, the Liberators on a par with the Lancaster, probably slightly bigger.
AM: I’m showing my ignorance now, is it American?
GR: The B-24 was originally was an American bomber.
RH: Oh yeah.
AM: Oh.
RH: Yeah, consolidated to the aircraft company, yeah. [pause] Nice aeroplane to fly because after flying in the Wellingtons as the rear or tail, tail gunner, the heating system, well, didn’t really exist. And, in O.T.U. going out on a flight at night, and we’d six hours, six and a half hour flights sort of thing in freezing [emphasis] weather and you’d have long johns and, and then your shirt and your pants, and so forth. And your wool, pullover, woolly, the battle dress, then over the battle dress, the, an inner flying suit—
AM: Right.
RH: Which was sort of kapok something or other, brown silky, you put that on. Then over that, the outer flying suit which wasn’t padded at all, then over that your life jacket, then over that your parachute harness. Now, some of the gunners at O.T.U. there was only one entry hatch and that was in the nose, so the guys used to take their kit with them and get dressed when they got down into the fuselage. But I had an arrangement with the navigator, and the bomb aimer, and the armourer who would turn the turret of our aircraft to a hundred and eighty degrees, so I could get in from the outside. And they would lift [emphasis] me up into the turret, and then when we got back I would turn the turret a hundred and eighty degrees, open the doors, fall out—
AM: We’re talking about the rear turret then?
GR: Yeah.
RH: Pardon?
AM: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. And they would—
GR: Tumble out.
RH: And they would get me out.
GR: [unclear]
RH: The advantage of the Wimpy of course, and the rear, and with the Lanc and the British aircraft wasn’t it, you opened the doors as a tail gunner and you just bale out and go backwards—
AM: You just flipped out.
RH: Couldn’t do that on the Liberator.
AM: So, we’ve done Heavy Conversion Unit, you’ve got your crew, you’ve done your training with your crew, when was—
RH: I can’t think of any incidents.
AM: When was your first operation then?
RH: In February 45.
AM: Right, and where, where was it too?
RH: That’s a very good question, I think—
AM: Germany somewhere?
RH: No, I, no we were in Italy.
AM: Oh, oh.
RH: Yep, I think that’s just March, isn’t it?
GR: That’s just March, yeah.
AM: Yeah.
GR: Yeah.
AM: Can you remember what it was like going up? Right because now you’re doing it for real instead of training? Did it make a difference?
RH: It was just a job. I think, you know guys of our age at that stage of the war, nine, you know, coming up to the end of the war, and you, I can’t think of the term really, indoctrinated or whatever, and you are used to it, you are used to it.
AM: So, were you scared?
RH: No I wasn’t, no.
AM: No.
RH: Because I didn’t have enough up there to be scared.
[laughter]
GR: Am I right in assuming that the, the bomber force in Italy at the time, was doing things like marshalling yards—
RH: Yeah.
GR: In northern Italy.
RH: Yeah.
GR: Austria.
RH: Yeah.
GR: Southern Germany? I think that there was a couple of trips.
AM: I think, yeah, I thought, I thought you went to southern Germany?
RH: No, we there were, I never went on a trip into Bavaria.
GR: But that was some of their, their area of operations.
RH: Yeah.
GR: There was the northern Italy marshalling yards, the Turin’s, that sort of thing, Verona, to try and stop—
RH: It was mainly the railway lines coming down through Bremen.
GR: Yes.
RH: And also down to Trieste and so forth.
GR: Which was the main supplier [unclear]
RH: And also, we, yeah, we bombed, what was it? Monfalcone, a little port, Ancona and Assa [?] yeah, they were, they were where the Germans had ships and used to supply their troops by night by running these boats along the coast, sort of thing.
GR: Did you normally fly with an escort? With a—
RH: On daylight, yeah.
GR: Daylights, yeah.
RH: Yeah, yeah. We had the Americans.
GR: Yeah.
RH: American B-51’s.
GR: Tuskegee, Tuskegee airmen?
RH: I don’t know who they were.
GR: They, they were the black—
AM: Yeah.
RH: I remember on one, on a trip to Monfalcone in the daylight, I mean we didn’t fly in formation, I mean our guys didn’t know how to fly in formation I never, not on heavies. And it just the usual stream, and so there were, sort of sixty, eighty aircraft in a stream. And we picked up the American escort, this was at the top end of the Adriatic, Trieste.
AM: Yep, yep.
RH: Right, it was the port next to Trieste.
AM: Yep.
RH: And, we picked up the escort and it was coming up, and our wireless op was listening out on their frequency, there had to be some sort of contact for, for, I didn’t hear this. But I remember we’d said, said afterwards, he said, ‘when they saw us coming,’ he said, and they were [laughs] saying about look at those sort of God damned limeys they’re not in formation, you know, all that how do we protect this lot and all the rest of it. [laughs]
AM: It’s like herding sheep.
[laughter]
RH: Yeah.
AM: Or herding—
GR: Are the Luftwaffe putting in much of an appearance?
RH: No.
GR: Towards that stage of the war?
RH: No, no.
AM: Were they not?
RH: No, they had, they were 109’s on the Italian, northern Italian airfields, but I think most of those were in what was called the Italian Republican Airforce.
GR: Yeah.
RH: You know, Mussolini’s lot, so you did see them, you did see them. Right and I remember seeing a strange sight one night as we were coming away from wherever it was in northern Italy. It was all a tremendous glare of course and, and looking out I saw these three Lib’s flying in and they were in [laughs] formation more or less and then at the back end of the [unclear] was a Bf 109. [laughs]
GR: Oh.
[laughter]
AM: Following you.
RH: Following the—
AM: Did you ever get shot at?
RH: With flak.
AM: With flak, but not, not as Gary said, not from a fighter?
RH: No, no, I saw, yeah there was a, we were 70 Squadron, 37 Squadron operated from the same airfield. I mean I didn’t know who they were, were at the time but and coming back at night from somewhere, Austria I think it might, might have been, the, and then suddenly seeing green tracer which I knew it was German. And then red tracer [laughs] sort of thing, and then ‘woof’ [emphasis] up went the Lib and down he went, yeah and that was 37 Squadron. Liberator, all lost.
AM: All gone. Did you ever shoot your guns at anything?
RH: No.
AM: Never?
RH: No, no you even if, and we were tailed one night by a fighter coming back from Trento I think it was, Trento, Trento marshalling yards you know, and I just reported it to the, to the crew, it was a 109. And he was sitting out and sort of, sort of four hundred yards or so away, you’d just see them occasionally with the glare in the background but he didn’t close and I certainly wouldn’t fire at him because it would show where we were.
GR: Were you were.
AM: Other people have said that, why would you fire—
RH: Yeah. Quite.
AM: And you know, mark yourself out to them.
RH: Yeah.
AM: Effectively.
RH: Yeah. Yeah, no you never, never fire unless you’re fired at. Okay?
AM: Yeah. I think, have you got any more questions?
GR: No, no.
AM: How many operations did you do in the end?
RH: Bombing, eighteen.
AM: Eighteen.
RH: And then we converted to supply, as the war was coming to an end—
AM: Okay.
RH: And the bombing stopped, and then they put some sort of racking inside the bomb bay so we could carry four-gallon cans of petrol and things like that.
AM: Right. So, what did you do between the war ending and demob?
RH: Er, yeah, we carried, you see although the war ended we’d already converted to transport.
AM: Yeah.
RH: And so, yeah for two or three weeks after VE Day we were flying, we were talking up supplies up to the north of Italy. And then after that they converted the bomb bay so you could carry bodies, troops, we could carry twenty-two.
AM: Live bodies?
RH: Yeah.
AM: Live ones.
RH: Twenty-two in the bomb, bomb bay. Poor blokes, [emphasis] I mean they just had to go down into the, down onto the catwalk and then climb over the back of these seats and then sit down. And there was the aircraft fuselage wall, just there sort of thing, and they had to sit there and on flights back to the UK, it took six and a half hours.
AM: You can’t imagine, can you?
GR: No.
AM: Were these troops or did you take any prisoner of war back?
RH: No, no—
AM: It was troops.
RH: These were troops. The ones we were flying back were due to be retrained and reformed to go out to Burma. These were the, I remember, you see they didn’t need the air gunners as such, so you became an odd bod sort of looking after these soldiers and so forth. And I remember on one occasion we were flying back with some guardsmen from a guard’s regiment, and the truck arrived and this lieutenant got out with his twenty odd bods. And they piled around and he said to our skipper, ‘we were all NCO’s, we were all senior NCO’s, he said, ‘have you anything to say?’ to the men sort of thing, and he said, ‘no.’ Since I was Harrison, generally I was called Harry, and so Ken said, ‘now Harry will look after you,’ well that wasn’t good enough for the, for the lieutenant. He turned around and he said, ‘when you are in the aircraft I don’t want you putting your hands out and grabbing any wires or anything.’
[laughter]
RH: So I saw them on board and we were flying up to Peterborough, Croughton, just south, it was an American base at that time and I used to bring them out one at a time and with the beam hatches open they could have a smoke—
AM: Right.
RH: Sitting there. And I think it was one of the last guys, came out and he sat on the other beam gunners seat, and he didn’t have intercom of course, we could only talk to each other by shout, shouting really, and he shouted, he said, ‘do we go through customs?’ he said, I said, ‘well I don’t.’ Crewmen didn’t, you just went straight through, [laughs] I said, ‘you, yes you will have to go through customs,’ and I said, ‘why?’ and he pulled back the sleeve of his battle dress and [laughs] there were watches—
[laughter]
RH: On, on there. And I said, oh, how did you get those?’ and they disarmed an SS unit or something and so, and relieved them of all, of all their odds and ends. And er, and then he reached into his blouse, fiddled about and pulled out a pistol, and I said to him, I said, ‘I don’t think you’ll get through with that,’ he said, ‘I’ve got another one in my kit bag.’
[laughter]
AM: I thought you were going to say you took them through for him.
RH: No, no, no.
AM: If you didn’t have to go through customs.
GR: They’re here.
AM: [laughs]
RH: No, after, after we’d landed and I got my travel warrant, and had a forty-eight-hour pass to get back to Bristol.
AM: Right.
RH: Or near Bristol. And so, it was late evening when I caught a train from Peterborough to Kings Cross, and Kings Cross to Paddington, and Paddington to Temple Meads, then Bristol. Which, I arrived about seven o’clock in the morning, then I had to walk over to the bus station and get a bus, and I arrived at my parents’ house I think, yeah it must have been about nine o’clock in the morning. Knocked them up, then I had, since it was a Saturday, I had to leave next day, just after lunch—
AM: To get back.
RH: To get back, yeah, so my forty-eight-hour pass in fact was about thirty.
AM: In the middle.
RH: Oh, so, anything else I can help with?
AM: Yes, this is, just out of interest this question. So, your Mum was German, how was she treated during the war?
RH: Yeah, okay.
AM: Were people okay with her?
RH: Yeah, you see we were, when I say Dad went in, into the civil service, he did, he and a lot of other guys including the major commanding who is based and so forth. Some of them were sort of even if they hadn’t given their time were said, okay you’re finished, because now you’re going to an establishment in Gloucestershire where you’ll be training police, fire, in what today are called civil defence duties. And so, you know, my environment from a child and all the way through to the time I left home was, was semi military because all the other guys were like Dad, they all ex-army.
AM: Right.
RH: They were all ex-army and some of them I remember when we lived at Salisbury, I remember a couple of German women coming there to visit Mum and they were again were wives of soldiers and so forth. But, no and of course we had relatives in Cologne and at the time of the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, we had a telegram which came through the Swiss Red Cross, from Mums sister Gerda, in Cologne, asking if we were all okay. [laughs]
AM: Were they all okay, did they ask to—
RH: No.
AM: Did your relatives not survive?
RH: No, no they were, they lived, well as most Germans do in the cities, they live in an apartment block and the block was, was—
AM: Blown up.
RH: Hit, and Uncle Johan as he was, he died of phosphorus burns. And my aunt and my two cousins, saw one cousin, they were evacuated into, into central Germany. The other one, my, he was about a year or so younger than me and had been like you know like all the rest of them in the Hitler movement and so forth. And then when he was sixteen I think, he volunteered for part time duty on a flak battery, and then when he was seventeen he became a full-time member of the Luftwaffe [emphasis] on a flak battery. When I met him, you know after, we used to have a joke about it.
[laughter]
GR: That’s a, well at least you had the opportunity.
AM: At least you never shot at me.
RH: Never fired at me because you were in, on the Rhineland and in the Ruhr, yeah
AM: Yeah, Happy Valley, the Ruhr.
RH: Pardon?
AM: Happy Valley, I’ve heard the Ruhr described as.
RH: Yeah, yeah. But they’re all, my cousins and my aunt are not, they are all dead now so, no contact.
GR: What I’ve just found amazing is, you’ve saying like yeah, during the Battle of Britain, and Bristol was being blitzed and all that, and a family in Germany sends a telegram [laughs] to a family in England saying are you okay?
AM: Are you okay?
RH: Yeah.
GR: And that’s just like, that’s incredible.
AM: Ordinary people in the war.
GR: Yeah.
AM: As opposed to the Nazis and all the rest of it.
GR: But the fact is, so you are in Germany, and you’ve got Hitler, yeah, we’re going to invade Britain and do this, do that, but you can send a telegram. So, it goes from Germany oh yes, certainly a lot of it went through Switzerland through the Red Cross.
AM: [inaudible as speaking at same time]
RH: Yeah.
GR: But you got the telegram in England, are you okay? Is everything alright?
RH: Yeah, yeah.
AM: What did you do then after the war then, after you’d been demobbed?
RH: I became a civil servant.
AM: Which bit? Which, which department?
RH: The Home, Home office—
AM: Oh.
RH: Was the governing training department but again [coughs] it was, it was, it civil defence training I sort of followed on, I and my brother we were lucky having a father in it. [laughs]
AM: Not what you know, but who you know.
RH: Yeah, well yeah, well you had to go through selection board.
AM: There was always full fair and open competition and all that, allegedly weren’t it. I’m just looking at this, the warrant on the wall here, which is?
RH: The what?
AM: I’m looking for the year, 1962.
RH: That was commission—
AM: You became a, well you tell me what it is?
RH: Yeah, I was commissioned in the volunteer reserve training branch here.
AM: Ah ha.
RH: The Air Training Corps.
AM: As a pilot officer.
RH: Yeah. Eventually I was a flight lieutenant.
AM: Yeah, crikey. Well I think on that note we’ll switch off.
RH: Have you been recording all—
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Richard Harrison
Date
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2015-11-16
Format
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01:07:06 audio recording
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AHarrisonR151116
Coverage
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Royal Air Force
Civilian
Conforms To
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Pending review
Spatial Coverage
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Egypt
Germany
Great Britain
Italy
Italy--Sicily
Temporal Coverage
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1942
1943
1944
1965
Description
An account of the resource
Richard Harrison was born in Cologne in 1924 to a German mother and English father. His desire to be aircrew was thwarted initially by a failed medical, something he later surmises could be on account of his mother’s nationality. A member of the Air Raid Precautions, Home Guard and Air Training Corps, he was called up in 1942. He was posted to RAF Tempsford, base for Special Duty Squadrons 161 and 138, who dropped supplies and people for the resistance. In 1943 he was posted to Sicily in the RAF Regiment Squadron for anti-parachute troop duties and then to Italy. He successfully applied to join the Desert Air Force and had air gunner training at El Ballah in Egypt. He went to Palestine as a rear gunner on a Wellington for the Operational Training Unit, followed by the 1675 Heavy Conversion Unit in Egypt with B-24 . His first operation was in Italy. After VE Day, they transported supplies and troops. After the war, he worked as a civil servant in the Home Office. In 1962, he was commissioned as a pilot officer in the Air Training Corps and eventually became a flight lieutenant
Creator
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Annie Moody
Gary Rushbrooke
Contributor
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Cathie Hewitt
Sally Coulter
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Publisher
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IBCC Digital Archive
138 Squadron
161 Squadron
70 Squadron
air gunner
aircrew
B-24
bombing
civil defence
crewing up
Heavy Conversion Unit
Home Guard
Operational Training Unit
RAF Tempsford
Resistance
training
Wellington
-
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/583/8852/PHolmesGH1604.2.jpg
134f273cd93e015a7d789b8e877b159b
https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/files/original/583/8852/AHolmesGH161016.1.mp3
cc225552ec17450d62364d1a1b362db0
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Holmes, George
George Henry Holmes
G H Holmes
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IBCC Digital Archive
Identifier
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Holmes, GH
Description
An account of the resource
Nine items. An oral history interview with Pilot Officer George Holmes (b. 1922, 1579658, 187788 Royal Air Force) his log book, records of operation, newspaper cuttings and photographs of personnel. He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 9, 50 and 83 Squadrons.
The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by George Holmes and catalogued by Nigel Huckins
Date
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2016-10-21
2017-01-14
Rights
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Transcribed audio recording
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Transcription
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AH: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Anna Hoyles. The interviewee is Mr George Henry Holmes. The interview is taking place at Mr Holmes’ home [deleted] Lincolnshire on the 16th of October 2016.
GH: Yes. I had some very lucky escapes. We had, we were going to [pause] I’ve written it down. I’ve got a terrible memory.
[pause]
GH: Stuttgart in Germany. And of course they originated in France thinking possibly that there wouldn’t be many, many night fighters there but we got caught and we got shot and it took off the bomb bay doors. They fractured the starboard wheel, ruptured the main spar and left us with cannon shells stuck in the fuel tanks which is actually really instantaneous. And we did a belly landing when we got back and I was one of the first out and running. Somebody said, ‘Are you frightened?’ I said, ‘Have you seen a Lanc go up in flames?’ And the bloke said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘Well. Well, when you do you’ll run faster than I do.’ And actually they took these cannon shells away by the, if you handled the armament, whatever and emptied them they found out that the cannon shells actually had been filled with sand instead of explosives. Otherwise we would have gone up in one. And that was once. And another night someone on a circuit when we were coming, of course I was at Skellingthorpe at the time and there were about five or six airfields all around. And we had a bump and nearly got tipped over by the windstream of another aircraft. And when we landed there was about five foot off the end of the pit, of the end of the aeroplane gone. That was, I think we could call a very near miss. And all through my career they used to say you’ve got to get it right. The good crews survive and the bad crews don’t. But when you’re dealing with an aeroplane that’s attacking you at about between five and six hundred mile an hour you don’t have time to work out all the superlatives. You just learn how to, well you have to try to get him in to four hundred yards for the ammo to be, do any damage whatsoever. And these would wait about a thousand yards and pump these things in to you, you know. But, yes we lost a lot of young men at the time. Look back sometimes and I think how the hell did we get through it?
AH: How did you come to join the RAF?
GH: Mixed feelings. I was living in Kettering at the time and I would be about six years of age. I’d only just joined school which was a joining age in those days of about six years I think and I saw the R100 or the R101 in the sky. A most amazing sight. And of course everybody was reading Biggles books so I wanted to be a Biggles man. And my father wouldn’t sign any papers for me so when I was eighteen I went down and joined the RAF as an air gunner. But there were so many enlisting at the time it was over twelve months I think before I was called. And they wanted me to be a pilot or navigator. I said, ‘No. I want to be an air gunner W/Op.’ Anyway, I finished up there. They made me a wireless operator / air gunner. Well, up to going into the air force I’d hoped to be a semi-professional musician because I played the violin from seven years of age to when I went in the air force, eighteen. And I played the violin, trumpet and a mandolin. And the man who was teaching me he used to make instruments and he was going to teach me how to make them. And, you know when I went in the air force I was in the air force for just over five years. I couldn’t get back to the standard that I was in and work for a living at the same time because you’ve got to put about two to three hours a day in you know, to it. So I abandoned the musical stuff. And actually I was at an old miner’s school. A corrugated tin hut thing and when we moved to Leicester and I was a top boy at the school. The teaching, they taught us in that stinking little old tin hut was beyond their, what they were teaching us in there. They told me I couldn’t do joined up writing. We’d got to go back to scroll, you know. But I went to a school that was attached to the College of Art and Technology and I was studying textiles and hosiery. And I earned a very good living through the entire working life producing socks, stockings, knee socks and things like that. Of course you got paid in on production in those days. You didn’t get a standing wage. The more you made the more you got paid. And you were allowed ten needles per week and if you broke more than that you had to pay for them. Six pence each I think they were then. The unions would go bloody mad now wouldn’t they? [laughs] I had a very good education really. I was very fortunate. I was almost fluent in French. The French master said, ‘I can’t understand you, Holmes. You’re the worst pupil I’ve ever had. You’re always talking, take no notice, I can’t understand how you’ve got top of the class in French.’ And I said, ‘Well, it’s simple. You gave us a half an hour’s homework and I always got an hour. So I worked harder than anybody else.’ [laughs] But I had a very good — my parents were not wealthy. My dad was a manager of a, the management of a grocery shop. You know these, what they were before the war. Several strains of food, food retailers and I really thought I was going to be a semi-professional musician. But I abandoned that scheme altogether and I got my sleeves rolled up and got stuck in this hosiery thing. ‘Til the war of course and then I couldn’t get, I couldn’t wait to get in the air force. And I finished up as a wireless operator / air gunner due to the fact, I always presumed, I don’t know whether it’s true or not but the fact that I had learned music, got some dashes and all like that. Morse code came easy and I was a very good operator. But apart from that I had a very happy marriage. I’ve got one son. He’s sixty seven now. And a he’s a fourth [unclear] at Judo. But life is a wonderful thing. Not to be wasted. And when you look at the war and see the number of thousands of young people who were wasted in the war. And the building and the costs. At the end of the day you have to sit around a table and talk it over from the first day. Save a lot of trouble and strife. But of course in those days Bomber Command was the thing.
AH: So you wanted to join Bomber Command?
GH: Oh yes. But then when you say wanted to join Bomber Command I’d always worked shifts. Night shifts and three shifts and things. I thought if I go in to the air force I’d be alright. And what did they do? They stuck me on Bomber Command. It was night work. But it wasn’t altogether good so as you look in the book you’ll see I did quite a number of daylight operations.
AH: Where did you train?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Where did you train? Where did you do your training?
GH: Where did I do my training? It was wonderful really. I I went to Blackpool first of all. That was the Number 10 RS something it was called. Signals Reserve or something. And they were all radio personnel in the air force up there. And we had a bloke called corporal [pause] I forget his name now. Corporal. Used to take us to the arm drill and foot drill. And his stage name was Max Wall. Can you imagine a man like Max Wall teaching you? Amazing. And then I went down to Yatesbury for a radio course. And I was posted then to Manby in the ground wireless op ‘til they could fit me into an air gunner’s course. Well, Manby in those days was number 1 AS. Air Armaments School and they taught bomb aimers and air gunners. We kept going to see the groupie and saying, ‘Get us on the course for air gunners.’ ‘No. You have to wait until you come through officially.’ When it did come through we was at a place called Evanton. About forty mile north of Inverness. First time I’d been to Scotland. In June it was. And it was a wonderful summer. And it was the first time I’d seen the shaggy Highland cattle. And I was taken by Scotland ever after that. Then after that, the gunnery course, I was sent to Market Harborough which is now a prison. And I used to push off home every night. After being there about three weeks the CO said, ‘We’re getting rid of you. You’re never here.’ It used to take me an hour to get home from Market Harborough on the local bus through all these villages. Little villages. And I was posted to Silverstone. And at Silverstone if you went in and out by railway you could get a train called the Master Cutler which was a high speed train from Sheffield to London and back. It used to do that in forty five minutes. That was quicker than being in [laughs] And I got crewed up there then and joined the [unclear] so to speak but I suppose if you were young men you had to be in something. You had no objection. I mean, no one wanted you to be a conscientious objector or anything. There we were. I joined Bomber Command and I was very lucky because I got with some good crews and I must admit I was commissioned towards the end of the war as a wireless op and I got operational strain and one thing or another. I was a bit of a drunkard. The only way of overcoming some of the strenuous [pause] I mean the beer we were drinking in those days I think was 1.2 percent alcohol. The water you washed the glasses in was stronger than the beer.
AH: So did you drink mainly beer? Or did you drink other stuff?
GH: No. No. The doc said, our doc on the squadron, ‘Go out and get pissed. It’ll do you good. Don’t go on spirits.’ And I was based around here. Around Louth. One way or another. It’s so that when my wife and I decided to come and live here it was after I’d retired. It was a home away from home really.
AH: Where were you first based? Where were you based first?
GH: Where was —?
AH: Where were you first based? Which was your first base? Where were you sent first?
GH: Oh. At a place called Bardney. Just outside Louth. And we got there. The place was, looked vacant and we got out the transport and looked around and looked in the ditches and it was full of bodies. We said, ‘What are you doing down there?’ They said, ‘Bugger off, there’s a fire in the bomb dump.’ So we said, ‘Oh, we’ll leave you to it then.’ But anyway a guy put it out. And then we went from that place. I did six ops there. And then we went to Skellingthorpe where the pilot was made up to a squadron leader. And we were only allowed two or three operations a month due to the losses of experienced crews. And by the time we’d done twenty trips together he, the pilot and the navigator went over to Pathfinders as the rest of the crew did. And the, the crew got sort of crewed up but the wireless, he didn’t want a wireless. He brought one with him, the pilot. So I was a spare bod and I went with an Aussie crew. His name was Cassidy and he’d got it painted on the side of a Lancaster. “Hop Along Cassidy’s Flying Circus.’ And I finished up at the one near Boston. What is it?
AH: Coningsby?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Coningsby?
GH: Coningsby. Yes. Yes.
AH: What squadron were you in first?
GH: 9. And then I went on to 50 at Skellingthorpe and then I went on to 83 at Coningsby.
AH: And what planes?
GH: Lancs. Well, after the war, if you look in the book look I went on a tour to South America. They sent three what were called Lancaster Mark 21s I think. But in actual fact they renamed them to Lincolns. It was a bigger aircraft that the Lancaster. Especially built for the war against the Japanese. And we went right down the west coast of Africa and then across over the Atlantic to Brazil and then right down to Santiago. Flew over the second highest mountain in the world I think it is. Aconcagua. But by then I’d decided I would take a course, this course on radiography, radio operating and get on to the public airlines. And I’d met my lady who I married and I found out that to be on public airlines you were away for home for anything from six weeks to three months. I thought well that’s not right. So I docked that and as I say I stayed in the hosiery trade. Yeah. Had quite a varied existence one way or another.
AH: What did you do in South America?
GH: Demonstrated the aircraft. I think they’d got that many four engine aircraft they didn’t know what to do with them and they were trying to flog them to anybody who’d buy them. God knows where all the aeroplanes went to. They just suddenly disappeared.
AH: And what was it like there?
GH: Pardon?
AH: And what was it like? Were they interested?
GH: Interesting.
AH: Were they interested in the aircraft?
GH: Oh very much so. Yes. Yes. Whilst we were there there was an earthquake in Peru and they wished us to send someone who would take some supplies over to Peru for the earthquake. And the air force said they couldn’t be allowed to do that because although we’d get to Peru and land they hadn’t got an air force runway long enough to take off so we’d be stuck. But yeah. Funny thing was we all decided when we were going to Brazil we would get together and learn Spanish. And when we got to Brazil they didn’t speak Spanish. They spoke Portuguese [laughs]
AH: How long were you out there for?
GH: Oh not very long. I should think, well if you look in the book it’ll tell you how long. About four weeks I think. We did one leg of the journey per day. And —
AH: And when were you demobbed?
GH: When? I think it was June of 1945.
AH: And how long were you in 9 Squadron?
GH: Pardon?
AH: How long were you in 9 Squadron?
GH: Only a few weeks. Not very long.
AH: What was it like?
GH: Quite an eye opener really. Mainly we were supporting the invasion. In fact that was the first time I’d ever seen the white cliffs of Dover coming back from France on D-Day. As I say all the boats going over.
AH: How did that feel?
GH: Have I —?
AH: How did that feel?
GH: Satisfied I would think would be the only expression. That we were doing something. And of course that’s another point. I mean I don’t know whether you’ve watched it on telly but they give you films of the actual landings in France and they chuck the blokes out into the water that was about six foot deep. They were drowned. Never got to France at all. Instead of waiting for the tide to go out. Some damned idiots in this military attitude.
AH: What did you think of Bomber Command?
GH: Well organised. To a certain extent they were very well organised. Many actual Bomber Command crews packed up before they’d completed a tour of course because it was a great strain. I remember doing a daylight on, I think it was at one of the flying bomb sites when they were launching flying bombs. And of course Bomber Command never flew in the way the Yanks did. They had three people from leading in and everybody was sort of doing what they called a gaggle at the back. And we were close up behind this three Bomber Command [pause] well, leaders I suppose and I looked up and saw an aircraft above was opening his bomb doors. I thought it’s going to drop on him shortly. Anyway he did. He dropped them and then it just floated down. Hit the aircraft on the right hand side, the starboard, knocked his wing off and he spun over and tipped the wing of the other who went that way and he tipped the wing of the other and went that way. And there were bodies without parachutes floating around and everything. And it was Cheshire who was controlling the raid. Called the raid off because he said the chaps didn’t stand a chance if we bombed it. So we flew back to the North Sea and dumped the bombs and went home. But the things like that they were happening every day. You know, I mean I’m afraid you accepted it.
AH: Do you remember where you were going on that raid?
GH: Not completely. No. Because there were one or two launch sites for flying bombs. I mean at one time as far as I know they were, they were launching something like ten thousand pound. Ten thousand flying bombs in a matter of a month or whatever, you know. I mean they were really showering the south of England with them. And —
AH: And how did you feel when you saw the bombs coming?
GH: I hope to God it misses me. To be truthful. But it was a sight, you know. Their only, these aircraft which they hit and damaged were only about a hundred, hundred and fifty yards in front of us. A matter of three seconds or something isn’t it? The speed we were flying at it could have been us. But many of the young lads who joined up when I joined up never finished. They were killed. A great deal of loss of human youngsters. Many of them technicians and people we missed after the war finished because of their experiences. And if you take that you promise me I will get it back?
AH: Yeah.
GH: Because I applied for the Aircrew Europe Star which was allotted to everybody who did two or more operations before D-Day which I did and I was told I didn’t, I hadn’t done enough. So when they issued the Bomber Command medal at the end of the war they said I couldn’t have that either because I’d got the 1939-45 Star or something. I don’t know. I thought well that’s great. I did twenty one ops and I never got a bomber medal. It’s unbelievable some fairy in Whitehall who was domineering the life span of the one doing the work. But the main thing I need at the present moment is some backup somewhere to get, I mean I mentioned to you earlier how much it cost. I was only getting two hundred and ninety pound a month. That’s about seventy pound a week towards the cost of being here and it was costing [pause] what was it? Well, a monthly, the monthly cost here is three thousand and forty one which is quite expensive. I think it’s a very good. I get my monies worth. But I think the company, the government or whoever, the Department of Works and Pension allow me something to help me pay for it and they want [coughs] they just knocked off the pension credit. I’m about two and a half thousand pound a month worse off when I got a pay rise of two pounds and fifteen pence [pause] In other words hard luck isn’t it? You know I mean I’m not the sort of person who is laid back and you handed something but I’ve worked all, all my own life. What I’ve got I’ve chased the work of one kind or another. Whether it was in the air force or out. And I’m disgusted actually to think the money that gets wasted.
AH: Could I just ask you a few more questions about the war?
GH: Yes.
AH: What did you think of the way Bomber Harris was treated?
GH: Disgustingly. As I said earlier he was blamed for bombing the population whereas the targets were selected by the War Committee. And the two leaders of that were Lord Portal and Winston Churchill. Bomber Harris was behind his crews all the way. Next question.
AH: Where did you go after 9 Squadron?
GH: With 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe. That was, it was so far to the sergeant’s mess from where we were displayed in Nissen huts we used to go into Lincoln for breakfast [laughs]
AH: What sort of squadron was it?
GH: What 83? Er 50?
AH: 50.
GH: Very very compatible actually. The man who was my pilot took his place as flight commander was Metham. He finished up deputy leader of some bomber group. Was it Metham? He’s a well-known, established leader of the Royal Air Force.
AH: Was that a Pathfinder squadron?
GH: No. No. They only had two Pathfinder squadrons. They were both at Coningsby. 83 and 97.
AH: Were you in them at all?
GH: I was on 83. I did, I think nine trips with 83 Squadron. They said that it was easy on Pathfinders of course. You, if you’re first flare leaders putting the flares down you went over and laid your flares and shot off home but they didn’t tell you when you started laying your flares you had to put it in automatic pilot and you couldn’t drift. So by the time you got to the end of laying the flares the Germans had got all the information of what you were doing [pause]
GH: And I have the greatest admiration of the German people and Germany itself. Moreso than any other European country. I have a great ideal, great ideals of them. They’re a wonderful people. We should never have gone to war against them. Well, should we?
AH: What do you think we should have done?
GH: Pardon?
AH: What could, what could Britain have done instead?
GH: Shot Adolf Hitler. It was a dictator. A man who believes beyond his experience. I think, well what’s happening in the world today? I mean we’re now fighting the, oh ethnic crowds that we were fighting in the days of Christ. For two thousand years we’ve been fighting. Still doing it and we’ll lose in the end. Of course people say they mean good. If you read the Koran as far as I remember the first rule is thou shalt now kill. And I think the fourth one is thou shalt kill all non-believers. So it leaves you in a sticky mess. And they’re gaining popularity all the while.
AH: When did you read the Koran?
GH: I haven’t read the Koran. I’ve read extracts from it. I’m quite interested in reading other people’s religions and of course in actual fact I believe in the bible which says when you die it’s ashes to ashes and dust to dust. I don’t think there’s a heaven up there. I don’t think there’s anything like that. I think it’s just, you’re just dead meat. Unfortunately. And many many people leave their readings, writings and paintings to be perused over and you get the benefit of their experience.
AH: Have you written anything?
GH: Written anything? Only rude things on the wall [laughs]. No. I wish I could have written things. I was too busy with music. As I said I went to a school where we had possibly an hour to two hours homework every night of various kinds and I didn’t really get out amongst other young fellas of my age because I was doing one to two hours music training as well. Now, the school I went to had started a school orchestra. Violin, banjo and drums. And I loved music. But as I say when I went in the air force I didn’t take a violin with me and I should have done I suppose. After being in five years my fingers were all stiffened up with, didn’t work. So I abandoned it straightaway and got on with earning a living
[knocking on door]
GH: Come in.
Other: Sorry to disturb you.
AH: I’ll just put this on pause.
[recording paused]
GH: They don’t look like reading my writing for a start. But there’s a cutting in there I think I mentioned it earlier on from Stalin who stated he wanted the Bomber Command to burn Dresden because they were using it to refuel the battlefield. And it wasn’t so because after the war I were working with some of the replacement Polish people and they said they’d been in Dresden and there were no army facilities there at all. There was no reason for them to bomb it.
[pause]
GH: And I have a younger sister who’s ninety in October. Laurie. So we’re quite a long lived family aren’t we?
AH: How old are you?
GH: Ninety four. Feel a hundred and four [laughs] some mornings. Yes.
AH: You’ve got a picture here of Squadron Leader Munro.
GH: Yes. He wanted to crew up with us. He’s just recently died you know. A New Zealander. That was when I was at gunnery school at Scotland.
AH: Which one’s you?
GH: How dare you say that [laughs] I haven’t changed that much at all surely. I’m the shortest one. Yes. And that’s my favourite photograph of myself.
AH: That’s nice.
[pause]
GH: Yes. It’s a wonderful world and I’ve met some wonderful people and I’ve had some wonderful friends and relatives. It’s been enjoyment. Mixing the good with the bad makes you appreciate it all the more. We came out of there as you go in.
AH: You talked about the strain of it. What was the worst strain?
GH: Being with Bomber Command? Well, naturally the, the operations themselves. They were well organised, I don’t mean like that but I mean they always taught us the best crews will get through. Did I mention to you before luck has a lot to do with it? And I mean a matter of seconds in some cases. I never flew as an air gunner though. I was in the Home Guard before I went in the air force. In Leicester. Well a little village outside Leicester called Narborough. And they used to send me out on a railway bridge defending the bridge at night time with a bayonet fastened to a broomstick with string. I don’t know what you were supposed to do with it. I had a few thoughts. But by the time I went into the air force I was fully trained and I’d got a Canadian Ross rifle that was in a cloth bag with about two inches of grease all around it. And I cleaned it up and the stock of it was beautiful. Lovely gun. And one of the chaps, he was a sergeant. I think he must have been a sniper. He said, ‘I’ll teach you how to fire a gun George.’ Because,’ he said, ‘Let’s face it. Who’s the last person that knows when you’re going to pull the trigger?’ I said, ‘I don’t know.’ He said, ‘Well you don’t pull the trigger. You squeeze your hand. And you don’t jolt it.’ And I could hit an eight hundred target, a bull at eight hundred yards. Which is quite good shooting I think. But I never did fly as a air gunner. I flew once as a tail gunner. And the tail one was like that. You knew all I got it I knew I wouldn’t have that for long.
AH: Did you get bombed yourself?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Did you get bombed yourself? In Leicester.
GH: Well, Leicester got bombed while I lived there. But we lived on the outskirts. And of course like most targets they usually go for the city centre first where all the main multiples are. And I was, I was quite happy in the Home Guard because we got very very good training. Initially it was useless. For the first two years. But when they got organised they got organised. And I sit and watch “Dad’s Army,” you know. And I I don’t know who picked the cast but it’s amazing to think [laughs] they look like real people [laughs] Anything else?
AH: Did you meet your wife during the war?
GH: No. I met her after the war. One of the boys who’s died in the last two years from Leicester was in training with me all the way through and he finished up at Coningsby on 97 Squadron and I finished up on 83. And his wife and my wife or future wife or his future wife, they used to go dancing Saturday nights together. And I met this girl one night in the RAF club. And I can’t understand that, I can’t explain the feeling but she was wonderful. And I said, ‘Can I see you again?’ And she said, ‘Well, I can’t see you for two weeks because I’m going up to Lincolnshire. To a town that you’ve never heard of.’ Well, I’d done all my training and everything here so I said, ‘Well, try me then.’ She said, ‘Louth.’ I said, ‘Well, I’ve got news for you. I can’t go to Louth again [laughs] They’d shoot me.’ And she was always dying her hair. I think after the first two months I knew her she must have had about six or seven changes of colour. She was lovely though.
AH: What was her name?
GH: Barbara. And when we first got married we had to live in the front room of my mum and dad’s house until we could get somewhere. Everyone does I suppose. And her uncle was a butcher and he used to do all the joints of meat for Leicester. And this friend of his, a friend of his or someone in the trade he dealt with was the housing minister for Leicester. And in those days you couldn’t get housed if you hadn’t got a wood licence. You had to have a timber licence. And he mentioned to this gent that I was having trouble with my wife’s breathing because my mother and father had a dog and she was allergic to dog hair. And he said to this young gent, ‘He’s just come out the air force and he definitely wants a house but, and his wife is allergic to dog hairs and has to get out, you know of home and have his own place.’ And the fellow twiddled it a little bit and got me a timber licence and away we went. We bought a semi for nineteen hundred quid. And then after a while we bought, we bought a complete des res like, you know what do you call it? A house on its own at, in Oadby near to Leicester at the back of the racecourse and you got a full view of the racecourse. And I used to say to people, ‘I’ve got a nice place. There’s about four furlongs of grass at the back and they came and cut it, you know regularly,’ [laughs] But as I say we had this problem with this hooligan who was threatening her so that’s how we moved to Louth. But I mean moving to Louth was like going next door to the pair of us because we’d both been here so many times.
AH: Did you like Louth?
GH: I think it’s very nice. And I think once you get into Louth the people will do anything but they’re a little offish at the start. But it’s a lovely little town. I was born in Mansfield. In the Sherwood Forest. But I did like Louth there. Very much.
AH: What was your home like there?
GH: Where?
AH: In Mansfield.
GH: Well, I was brought up with my grandparents. I wasn’t brought up with my mother and father. They couldn’t get anywhere to live in, although my sister had been born. They wouldn’t accept anyone with two children so they farmed me off with my grandparents. My grandmother Holmes, when I was six or seven or eight years of age taught me how to sew and darn and knit.
AH: Did you have use of that later?
GH: Yes. Because I went into the hosiery trade and it was the machines that knit things make exactly the same loop as you do a knitting pin. And of course as I say I, I had a quite a few jobs. The job I had at Byfords. The other chap working next to me who was in his forties hadn’t been taken to the army. Hadn’t been called up. With a wife and two children. He always used to go down smoking in the toilets about once every hour and I used to run his machines as well as mine. And one day, you used to put your earnings under the table where they kept all the yarns and everything. He had a sneaky look and he found out I was earning more than him. So he went to the manager and he said he didn’t see any reason why someone’s underage that were in machinery should be earning more than he did. So they said, ‘Oh alright, we’ll give you two of his machines. They had me in the office and they said, ‘You’ve been bragging.’ I said, ‘What about?’ They said, ‘What you earn.’ I said, ‘I daren’t tell my father what earn. He’d go mad.’ I was earning as much or twice as much as my dad. And they said, ‘Well, we’re going to take two of your machines off you and you’ll run them for him.’ So I said, ‘I have an idea now. You can stick them up your arse.’ And they gave him the bloody lot. I got sacked for insolence. I got another job. I was never out of work. I got training that was necessary and I could go anywhere. I worked at Byfords. They sacked me three times after that incident and a very good job. The only snag is when I went into it before the war you were using cotton and well, wool and the machines were covered in like a white powder from the cotton in the wool, you know. And after the war when they started using synthetic fibres I think the synthetic fibres were so small you swallowed them. And I have a difficulty with breathing actually which is due to that I think. But nobody would say so because you then would jump then and say I want paid for being. I don’t think, I don’t think there’s more than one or two hosiery factories left in Leicester and it used to be the main city for hosiery. But that was all, that was all shift work. Night work and not very conducive for family life. I used to go to work because I mean you were busy. It didn’t bother you but my wife was stuck at home on her own you know and I didn’t realise until after I’d lost her that that’s what the problem was really. Basically. But we had a good life together. Yeah.
AH: Was your father or your grandfather in the First World War?
GH: Both my father and my wife’s father were in the First World War. My wife’s father was stationed at Louth here. In the Leicester, what did they call it? It was a mountain brigade. And he was only a little bloke. Smaller than me. And he looked like, well you just couldn’t imagine him sat on a horse.
AH: What he was called?
GH: Pardon?
AH: What he was called?
GH: His surname? Evans. Evans. Good Evans. I went to Edmonton for my gunnery course and we had a group captain called Group Captain Evans Evans and he got awarded the French medal. The Croix de Guerre. And he said, ‘Although I flew in World War One I’ve not flown in World War Two and I don’t think I deserved it. So I shall get a crew together and fly.’ So I went to my CO and I said, ‘Look, old Evans Evans is getting a crew together.’ We had a chance to get in because at that time I was a spare. And he said, ‘No, I don’t think so. My wireless op is covering that because he’s one behind everyone else in the crew and we all want to finish together.’ And off they went and they were shot down by the Americans before they got to the war. Before they got to the war line they were shot down by the Americans. And the only one that got out was the rear gunner. So that was another lucky escape. Just how the penny drops isn’t it? Am I boring you? Say so if I am. Anyway [pause] I am suffering really from the breathing quite badly.
AH: Shall we finish?
GH: Pardon?
AH: Do you want us to finish?
GH: Yes.
AH: Thank you very much.
GH: Quite all right. If it’s been of any —
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with George Holmes
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Anna Hoyles
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-16
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
AHolmesGH161016
Conforms To
An established standard to which the described resource conforms.
Pending review
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Civilian
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Julie Williams
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Brazil
Chile
Germany
Great Britain
Peru
Chile--Santiago
England--Lincolnshire
Germany--Stuttgart
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1945
1946
Description
An account of the resource
George was born in Mansfield and was bought up by his Grandparents until he was seven when he moved back to his parents in Leicester where his Father ran a coffee shop. He was a semi-professional musician playing violin, trumpet and mandolin. He studied hosiery at college and worked in hosiery production his entire working life. He joined the Home Guard in Narborough, and recalls how he defended the railway bridge at night time with a bayonet fastened to a broom stick with string. After volunteering for the Air Force he was sent to Blackpool for training. The corporal who taught him foot drill went on to be the comedian Max Wall. He was then sent to RAF Yatesbury for his radio course, and then forwarded to the Air Armourers school. After completing the course, he was posted to RAF Evanton for a gunner’s course. His next posting was to RAF Market Harborough, but was only there for three weeks before he was sent to RAF Silverstone for crewing up. His first station was RAF Bardney with 9 Squadron for a few weeks. He remembers that when they arrived at Bardney it was deserted and they found everyone lying on the floor in the kitchen as the bomb dump was on fire. The crew were then posted to RAF Skellingthorpe in 50 Squadron and they completed 20 operations. George recalls a daylight operation on a V-1 site, and he witnessed the Lancaster that was above them blown up and seeing the bodies of the crew falling past their aircraft. The crew were then split up when the pilot and navigator joined the Pathfinders and he became a spare bod. He eventually joined an Australian crew in 83 Squadron at RAF Coningsby and completed a further nine operations. His pilot was called Cassidy and the nose art on the Lancaster was “Hop along Cassidy’s Flying Circus.” After the war he took part in a tour of South America and discusses an earthquake in Peru. He discusses his religious beliefs and how the war, Bomber Command, and Arthur Harris have been remembered. He met his wife Barbara after the war at a dance in the RAF club and they had one son.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
01:08:02 audio recording
50 Squadron
83 Squadron
9 Squadron
air gunner
Air Gunnery School
aircrew
bomb dump
bomb struck
bombing
civil defence
crewing up
faith
forced landing
Home Guard
Lancaster
mid-air collision
nose art
Pathfinders
perception of bombing war
RAF Bardney
RAF Coningsby
RAF Evanton
RAF Market Harborough
RAF Silverstone
RAF Skellingthorpe
training
wireless operator / air gunner
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Milling, Edward
E Milling
Description
An account of the resource
20 Items. The collection concerns Sergeant Edward Milling DFM (656624 Royal Air Force) and contains his log book, correspondence, newspaper cuttings and four photographs. Edward Milling was a navigator with 103 and 166 Squadrons at RAF Elsham Wolds and RAF Kirmington. He was killed 27/28 September 1943 when his Lancaster crashed in Germany while on an operation to Hannover. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Bren Bridges and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive Staff.<br /><br />Additional information on Edward Milling is available via the <a href="https://internationalbcc.co.uk/losses/116227/">IBCC Losses Database</a>.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-03-31
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Milling, E
Transcribed document
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading.
Transcription
Text transcribed from audio recording or document
LETTER from Alan Robson.
[underlined] Prisoner of War. [/underlined]
[page break]
[GEPRÜFT stamp]
[PASSED stamp]
Kriegsgefangenenpost
Postkarte
Mrs Milling
Empfangsort: Beeston, Notts
Straße: 57 East Lane?
Land: England
Gebührenfrei!
Absender:
Vor- und Zuname: ALAN ROBSON
Gefangenennummer: 43117
Lager- Bezeichnung KDO 1249.
M.- Stammlager 1X A
Deutschland (Allemagne)
[page break]
Kriegsgefangenenlager
Datum: 13.11.43
Dear Mrs Miller
I doubt if my name will convey much to you. I was one of the “boy’s” who went with Teddy. I’m afraid that you must expect the worst although there is a faint hope. Sorry if I’ve put it crudely
Yours truly, S H Robson
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Letter to Mrs Miller from Alan Robson
Description
An account of the resource
Alan Robson writes to Mrs Miller from M.- Stammlager 1X A telling her he flew with her son Teddy and expects her to hear bad news.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alan Robson
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1943-11-13
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Cathie Hewitt
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
One postcard with envelope
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Text. Correspondence
Text
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
ERobsonAMillingEM431113
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Royal Air Force
Royal Air Force. Bomber Command
Spatial Coverage
Spatial characteristics of the resource.
Germany
Temporal Coverage
Temporal characteristics of the resource.
1943-09-27
1943-09-28
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
IBCC Digital Archive
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
missing in action
prisoner of war