Interview with David Vandervord
Title
Interview with David Vandervord
Description
The interviewer describes his aims for the interview. Edited transcript at linked item. David Vandervord explains that, as a Wellington second pilot, he never actually handled the aircraft on operations. He mentions leaflet dropping. He, initially, joined the civil air guard and started pilot training but this was interrupted by the war. He describes basic, advance and OTU training before being posted to 218 Squadron at RAF Marham in December 1940. He recalls the names of the first pilots he flew with. He recounts an operation where they had to jettison bombs over England and were then forced landed. He recalls another operation where they were attacked by 2 Me 110 which damaged the aircraft and wounded him and was recovered to base single engine. David states that he flew 13 operations and then asked to be removed from Bomber Command. He talked a little about subsequent postings. He comments on qualities of Wellington and states that all operations were at night. He mentions that his crew were lost while he was recovering from a wound. He talks about his crew, mentions operation to Brest to attach Scharnhorst and recovering to Boscombe Down. He concluded with discussion over photographs.
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00:47:28 audio recording
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This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
SBondS-VandervordDv10014
Transcription
SB: Well, this is an example of what I would do just so you can see what I do.
DV: You’ve written it.
SB: Yes. So —
DV: Different aircraft.
[tea talk]
DV: I see. Tell the story. We know that Germany [unclear] as well have you?
SB: Yes. What I like to do is to write some stories but really with lots of personal stories. Not just the historical what aircraft did what when.
DV: I thought you’d like —
SB: That’s from the chap —
DV: Details of the aircraft? Not particularly.
SB: Well, it’s more what you, what you did and what you experienced and those sorts of things.
DV: Oh. Yes. Right.
SB: So the reason I’m doing this —
DV: The thing is I only did thirteen. Thirteen missions.
SB: Right.
DV: And I was second pilot. I never flew the aircraft over enemy territory at all. Two, two pilots. I was merely there in case the other pilot got injured or killed.
SB: Right.
DV: If it so happened and I was the one if he didn’t. So you want the whole history. Well, as I’ve got it.
SB: Yeah. So you were on well let’s do the operations. So you were 218 Squadron. Is that right? 218? Or have I got that wrong? The squadron that you did your ops on.
DV: It says in there.
SB: Yes. 218.
DV: Right.
SB: Yeah. Ok.
DV: [unclear] in that lot. Now, that, that bit there is a leaflet. Only half of it. Only first half of it. I’ve lost half of it. In the early days we dropped leaflets instead of —
SB: Nickels.
DV: [unclear] yeah. Yes, we dropped leaflets before bombs.
SB: Yes.
DV: These were the early days.
SB: Sure. Sure.
DV: I don’t know if that is any interest to you. It is relevant of course.
SB: Absolutely. Yes. Well, let’s start in the beginning then. So you joined up in ’39. Is that right?
DV: Well, shall I start at the beginning?
SB: Yes, start at the beginning.
DV: Over here in Rochford.
SB: Right.
DV: I joined what was called the Civil Air Guard.
SB: Yes.
DV: Which was an organisation that the government had set to give people to have the courage, for people to learn to fly.
SB: Yeah.
DV: And I joined the Civil Air Guard and the government paid half your fee. You paid the rest of it. And then while I was over there for a time the RAF, well I made my first solo over there.
SB: What were you flying?
DV: Tiger Moths. No, actually at that time it wasn’t Tiger Moths. It was similar aircraft. I don’t know what it was.
SB: Ok.
DV: I did my first solo over there before I was even in the RAF and then I picked up half of my training fees and the government paid the other half. And then the RAF opened up a unit there, an RAFVR unit and I thought oh I’ll transfer to that and I paid all my training fees instead of having to half of it [unclear] Then suddenly the war happened and everything stopped.
SB: Yes.
DV: We were there for several months [unclear] we used to go down to the front unit and every two weeks they’d take my pay. That was, that was my war [laughs]. So eventually we, we went to Bexhill. No flying and we were just, just wasting fuel.
SB: Was this at ITW?
DV: Yes. It was just drill.
SB: Yeah.
DV: No flying. Nothing to do with flying. The fuel side of the RAF and that was it. De la Warr. Do you remember the De la Warr pavilion perhaps?
SB: I know of it. Yes. Yes. Right.
DV: You see it on pamphlets [unclear] and we were there.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Then after a time there eventually started [unclear] the next thing I went to a place called Desford. Have you ever heard of that?
SB: Yes, I have. Yes. Yes.
DV: So, that was my, I was flying Tiger Moths there. That was the initial. It started again from scratch as it were.
SB: Yeah.
DV: And went through a period with that on Tiger Moths. Then I went to Gran [pause] Grantham was it?
SB: Yeah. Grantham. Yes.
DV: Grantham. You’ve got that have you?
SB: Yeah.
DV: You know about Grantham. Yes. Grantham. I was flying Ansons. And there were, there were Battles there and Ansons. The people flying Battles came through and became fighter pilots. The ones on Ansons went on, on bombers or other aircraft.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
DV: So I had a period, a period there and then I went [unclear]
SB: Harwell after that.
DV: Sorry?
SB: So was it 15 OTU Harwell came after that. Is that right?
DV: Oh yes.
SB: Yes.
DV: Yes. Yes.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Oh you’ve got quite a long list there.
SB: Well, I’ve got your list here.
DV: Yes. More than I can remember rightly.
SB: Right. And there you crewed up presumably. At Harwell. Yes, at Harwell.
DV: Oh, no. Not at Harwell. No.
SB: Did you not?
DV: Well, what was Harwell? No. It was a —
SB: Harwell was the OTU.
DV: Oh yes. Yes.
SB: Yes.
DV: Yes. Oh, yes. That’s right. Yes.
SB: Right.
DV: No. No. There wasn’t any crew there. No. I was just. I think I was flying. Flying [pause] what’s the names?
SB: Wellingtons.
DV: Yes.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
DV: Yes. It’s got there it’s got one particular one when I was shot up and wounded. I expect you have found that have you there?
SB: What? While you were still at OTU you mean?
DV: Oh no. No.
SB: No. Ok. So you, well let’s, so you finished on OTU in December 1940 and then went to 218 Squadron at Marham. December 1940.
DV: Yes.
SB: Right. Ok.
DV: Yes.
SB: And Flying Officer Anstey. He was your first pilot was he? Anstey then changed to Agar.
DV: Agar. That’s right. Yes. That was the one I was with. Yeah. I was second pilot to him. As I say I never, never flew the aircraft —
SB: Right.
DV: Operationally at all. There wasn’t any need to with two pilots. I was just there in case the first pilot got killed or wounded so then I took over.
SB: Right.
DV: But that never happened fortunately.
SB: Right.
DV: We could have. We did get shot at. I was the one of the crew didn’t [unclear] the pilot who was flying the aircraft low.
SB: Would this be, you’ve got one here February the 11th ’41. Bremen. Low cloud over target. Crash landed in field.
DV: Oh yes.
SB: At Bassingham. Is that the one?
DV: No. No. No
SB: That was another one.
DV: That was another one.
SB: Right.
DV: Well, shall I tell you about what happened there?
SB: Yes, do. Yes.
DV: I’ll tell you that part. This is the second one actually.
SB: Right.
DV: Yes. We came back with our bombs. We couldn’t see anything. Low cloud over Germany and over here.
SB: Right.
DV: So we, so we brought our bombs back and we decided now what shall we do? Shall we go up? Take the aircraft up and jump by parachute. System George. You know, George was the automatic pilot. Take it out to sea or something to crash. Or shall, I say we I wasn’t following the aircraft that was the pilot, Flying Officer Agar should he, should he try to dip through. You could look, over the cloud you could look straight down. It was a big, the earth quite close you know flashing by. But coming from the pilot’s seat I couldn’t easily, couldn’t easily see.
SB: Right.
DV: Through. So, it was decided that he would, he would try to dip through. See a gap in a cloud. Dip through again in the cloud. Very low this is of course. We were only a few feet above ground level and [unclear] he came down and the next sort of thing there was a tree in front of him. He lifted up over the tree. There was a ploughed field. Wheels up. Made what they called a belly landing. You’ve probably got it recorded there again somewhere.
SB: It just says, “Crash landed in a field.” Yes.
DV: Yeah, that’s right.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Yes.
SB: Yes.
DV: This was a ploughed field on a, on a wheels up of course.
SB: Yes.
DV: As you probably know if you had the wheels up you did a [turtle] quite a belly landing as it was called. Oh, first of all I should have said dropped our bombs live over this country.
SB: Over this country.
DV: We didn’t want to land with bombs so we did that in case they went up. So we brought, had to bring all the bombs back. We couldn’t see anything. Anywhere to drop the bombs.
SB: Sure [Thank you very much. Thank you.] Right. So you just jettisoned them somewhere on the way back did you?
DV: Yes.
SB: Yes.
DV: I don’t know quite where. They’re probably still there. To drop them live you had to produce a pin.
SB: Yes.
DV: They didn’t explode.
SB: Right.
DV: But you wouldn’t have wanted them to land on their heads.
SB: Well absolutely. So was everybody ok after that forced landing?
DV: Oh yes. Yes. I recall we didn’t know where we were. We just all traipsed out. Found a road not far away. We walked along the road, found a, found a little house or a cottage or something. Knocked on the door. We must have scared them stiff I suppose seeing airmen. They’d think the Germans had arrived. But they, well they then phoned up. They must have gone through the RAF police [unclear] I suppose and they sent us transport and took us back there and eventually got word back to Marham.
SB: Right. Right. What sort of state was the aeroplane in?
DV: Well, I don’t know exactly. It wasn’t bad. Not terribly. It could be repaired I should think. It was in a bit of a state.
SB: Right.
DV: As the landing it was called a belly landing. It was a —
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
DV: Obviously damaged quite a bit.
SB: Oh sure. Yes. Yes.
DV: I dare say they recovered it by repairs.
SB: No. I think this must be the other one that you started to talk about. This is March the 13th ’41.
DV: That was where we were shot up.
SB: Yes.
DV: Yeah.
SB: Can you —
DV: When I was wounded.
SB: Can you talk me through that?
DV: Yes. Yes. Well, first of all we went to, I expect I’ve got it down there. German —
SB: It was Berlin the night before.
DV: No.
SB: And then it was Hamburg this target this time.
DV: Well, that’s [unclear] We went, we went to Hamburg. [unclear ] the coast of Holland and then around the [pause] I’m not sure of the river. Elbe?
SB: Yes.
DV: Maybe yeah. Down to Hamburg.
SB: Right.
DV: Which, which everything went alright. Dropped our bombs there and it was decided to come back over land.
SB: Right.
DV: This is going out. I don’t know why. Anyhow, we got as far as the Zuiderzee in Holland. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Zuiderzee.
SB: Oh, yeah.
DV: It’s not, I mean there’s no sea there and I think they recovered it. But over the Zeiderzee. Got caught in searchlights and waited a little bit on the searchlights and then two German Messerschmitt 110s, a twin engine they used as night fighters attacked us. Actually I’ve got the details there. And it’s fantastic how the aircraft survived. I think we shot down one of the aircraft and then Agar who was flying the plane dove right down to ground level. I got, I got, yes that’s right. I was standing in the astro hatch and I don’t know whether you are aware at the time of the fact that they that they had built in some, some doors. Bullet proof doors which are halfway through the fuselage.
SB: Right.
DV: And they were on a, on a hinge with a pillar which was in the middle halfway across the fuselage and the doors either way.
SB: Right.
DV: And they were sort of flapping backwards and forwards but at the time of the attack I think they must have been back. I was standing behind them in the astro hatch which was these things were just behind the, they were just behind the astro hatch. It was amazing how close that aircraft came, the German fighter came because I remember looking through the astro hatch and we [could have touched] they came that close.
SB: Really?
DV: Fantastic pilot all the time. I was the only one who got wounded. But the aircraft was shot to pieces but still kept on flying. One engine was on fire. So we came quite close to the Zuiderzee so we went out over the North Sea heading for Marham one engine on fire.
[background chatter]
DV: The petrol gauge was showing zero because what would have happened when I say the engine was on fire I think the fuel supply to one of the engines had been severed.
SB: Right.
DV: And it was sort of [pause] on fire every now and again. Then the speed of the aircraft sort of blew it out then it ignited again but apart from that we were losing petrol of course being that the fuel supply was severed and the petrol tank wasn’t, the engine was getting much petrol.
SB: Right.
DV: So virtually we came back over the North Sea with one engine. One engine, one engine on fire intermittently and landed at Marham. But I didn’t see much of it of course because I was, I was wounded in the leg. I went straight to hospital. I was told that the aircraft was in a hell of state, you know. It was still flying. I feel, feel that was due to the structure.
SB: Yeah.
DV: I don’t think most aircraft could have survived the punishment that the aircraft had had.
SB: Right. Right.
DV: Does anyone else —
[background refreshment chatter]
DV: [unclear]
SB: Right.
DV: I went straight to hospital so I don’t know quite how. I was told the aircraft was in a hell of a state but still, still flying. That was that. That was first and then the other one’s landing in the field.
SB: Right.
DV: Was afterwards.
SB: Right. Ok.
DV: Now, I got to thirteen missions.
SB: Yeah.
DV: And I then asked to come off. I thought it seemed useless to me. There I was I’d done thirteen missions and never, never flown the aircraft. Never flown the aircraft over enemy territory.
SB: Right.
DV: And I asked to come off Bomber Command and to go on to I think I asked for fighter. Fighters but —
SB: Right.
DV: Anything else. But as I say I was taking all the risk and nothing. Anyhow, one thing or another. Either come off flying or carry on as you are. I had to make a quick decision. I was just seconds. didn’t say well think about it and told me. I said, ‘Alright, I’m not flying,’ and that was the end of my flying career.
SB: Really?
DV: After thirteen missions. So, I haven’t got any stories to tell you.
SB: What did you do after that then?
DV: Oh, I joined a unit. I forget what it was. We went, we went out in a group of people. we were deciding, we were taking reading of the [pause] what was it? There were two bombs they were sending over.
SB: Oh the V-1 and V-2.
DV: Yes, that’s right. So, we were, we were I think it was the, I don’t know which it was we had to take readings of the [pause] we were a wireless unit and we recorded the [pause] from where we were the angle, you know. So somebody else was get the angle and tell them to get across and we would tell them where it was. But at the time unclear] someone was sent to bomb them and they’d moved. But still —
SB: Right.
DV: That was our job.
SB: Right. Right. Yes. Ok.
DV: And we got up quite close to the German lines and quite close so that was, that was nothing much. That was nothing to do with flying of course. I had longed to fly.
SB: When did you eventually leave the Air Force then?
DV: Oh, not ‘til the [pause] sometime after the end of the war.
SB: Right.
DV: I was demobbed.
SB: Just going back to the ops certainly early on in the war there was no, as you know there was no co-ordinated main force that Bomber Harris brought in when he came along. So at the time you were flying your ops was all your squadron going off at the same time or was it up to the original skippers when they, when went off and navigate? Would you navigate on your own or were you navigating as a force?
DV: No. All at the same time.
SB: You were.
DV: More or less.
SB: Right. Ok.
DV: I do recall when we went to Berlin the squadron leader they had, most of the aircraft were Bristol engines I think.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Hercules. But I do remember this. There was one aircraft that had Merlin engines on it.
SB: Right.
DV: And the squadron leader. When we all went out the squadron leader was way back and in bed before we got back. He got back much quicker with the Merlin engines.
SB: Right. Right.
DV: But there was only one aircraft that had Merlin. Had Merlin engines.
SB: Oh, that was on your squadron.
DV: Yes.
SB: Oh.
DV: Only one aircraft on the squadron.
SB: Yes, because the Mark 2 Merlin engine wasn’t that common an aeroplane was it?
DV: Probably not. No.
SB: No. What did you think of the Wellington?
DV: Oh, it was, I remember the experience.
SB: From your experience.
DV: It was easy enough to fly. I could fly it quite easily. I did, I did fly quite a bit but not operationally.
SB: Right.
DV: I remember one occasion my brother was in the Army and he was in a searchlight group not far along the coast of Norfolk. On one occasion I went out and I sort of shot him up. Then my wireless, my wireless operator came to me. He said, ‘Do you know our trailing aerial is out?’
SB: Oh no.
DV: You never told me that [unclear] or I wouldn’t have [unclear].’ [laughs]
SB: Yes.
DV: Not operationally.
SB: No. I understand that.
DV: No.
SB: No. A friend of mine had a similar experience actually. He was flying the Fairey Hendon just before the war and then moved on to Wellingtons.
DV: Oh. Yeah.
SB: And he was a wireless operator. He, he’d left the trailing aerial out similarly.
DV: Oh really?
SB: And they were beating up Duxford.
DV: Yeah.
SB: And when they got, and that, that was Marham as well actually.
DV: Was it?
SB: 38 Squadron. Yes.
DV: Yeah.
SB: When they got back to Marham there was a very irate phone call from a very irate man at Duxford to say his trailing aerial had done some damage to the CO’s Hawker Fury or something like that.
DV: [unclear] We didn’t do any damage when I flew around. Our wireless operator said to me when I was flying, he said, ‘Do you know the trailing aerial is out?’ I said, ‘No. I didn’t know that. No one told me.’ [laughs]
SB: Now, all your ops were night ops then. You didn’t do any daylights.
DV: No. No.
SB: Ok.
DV: No. The only beyond me they had [pause] I had great admiration for which Flying Officer Agar who was the first pilot. After you see I joined them when I came out of hospital. In actual fact, he, they’d had while I was in hospital even after that they had obviously a placement for me. A replacement for me and they were lost while sending an SOS over the North Sea. Never heard from —
SB: Really?
DV: Yeah.
SB: How long after you left them was that?
DV: Oh, I don’t remember.
SB: Not long?
DV: I think it was while I was in hospital or —
SB: Oh right.
DV: Perhaps I was just out. I’m not sure.
SB: Oh, gosh. Right.
DV: But the thing is had I not, pretty obviously had I not been wounded I would have been still with them and I would have been dressed with them and been killed with them.
SB: Yeah.
DV: It’s all a question of, all a question of luck.
SB: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.
DV: Some survived. Some didn’t.
SB: No. That’s right.
DV: I just happened to be the lucky one. As I say if I hadn’t been wounded, in hospital. Whilst I was in hospital another fellow came in. He was a New Zealander. He was a New Zealander pilot and he came into the ward when I was and I said, ‘What are you doing here now?’ He turned around and showed me the rear of his trousers. There was a hole in the trousers where he’d been shot in the bottom.
SB: Oh really? Oh dear.
DV: So he was in hospital. And afterwards obviously they went back.
SB: [McNeill]
DV: [McNeill]. I joined up with him and flew with him and we did a few missions with, I flew a few missions with him.
SB: So he was a New Zealander.
DV: Yes.
SB: What about the rest of the crew? Were they a mixture or were the rest of the crew all British or —
DV: Oh, I think they were all British.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Yeah.
SB: And in your first crew was it all British was it?
DV: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
DV: I think so. Yeah.
SB: Ok.
DV: I don’t know [unclear]
SB: Well, yeah I’ve got a great deal. It’s very very good. There’s a couple of others you might recall. 7th of May with Sergeant McNeill you went to Brest.
DV: Oh yes.
SB: To target the Scharnhorst.
DV: Oh yes.
SB: And then it says that you landed at Boscombe Down.
DV: Oh yes. That’s right. Yes.
SB: Was that for any particular reason or was it weather or were you damaged or what? Can you recall?
DV: We weren’t damaged.
SB: No.
DV: I don’t know why. But it was a very long flight from where we were. We came across the English coast before we could get to Marham.
SB: Sure. Yeah. Weather maybe then —
DV: I don’t know. Whether it was we came back to refuel perhaps before we got to Marham.
SB: Right. Your last one sounds quite interesting as well. May the 10th Hamburg. Your target was the Blohm and Voss Shipyards.
DV: Oh yeah.
SB: And you’ve written here, “Large fires observed. Very heavy flak and searchlights. Many fighters.” That sounds [laughs] like an interesting time.
DV: Where was that to?
SB: Hamburg.
DV: Oh, that’s right.
SB: The Blohm and Voss Shipyards.
DV: Oh, there was another time we were there because at Hamburg we got shot up.
SB: That’s right. Yes. Indeed.
DV: I don’t, I can’t remember that especially.
SB: No.
[pause]
SB: Marvellous. Ok. Now, what have you got here?
DV: I’ve got some pictures.
RV: Right.
DV: That’s me.
SB: That’s you. Right. Are you happy if I take photographs of these?
DV: Oh no. No. Yes, I mean.
SB: Yes [laughs] I took your no as being yes.
DV: But I’ll tell you what [unclear] at all I think. Can I just see them.
SB: Oh, of course. Of course. Of course.
DV: I can tell you. That is one of me.
SB: Right.
DV: At the controls. That is the [pause] now I’m not in that. That’s, that’s the crew I was with I think and that was, that’s flying officer Agar who I was with although I’m not in that.
SB: Right. Can you put names to any of the rest of them?
DV: No.
SB: No. Ok.
DV: I suppose it’s, it’s just a general photograph of me.
SB: Right.
DV: That is and that is.
SB: And what rank were you when you were demobbed?
DV: Sergeant.
DV: Sergeant. It says it is one of the crew. Now, this is the New Zealander.
SB: Oh, this was McNeill on the left.
DV: McNeill. Yes.
SB: Right. And you next to him. That’s rather good.
DV: That again I think was another one. There’s me there. There.
SB: Right.
DV: There.
SB: That’s McNeill again. Yes. Yeah.
DV: [unclear]
SB: Right. Very nice. Very nice shots.
DV: Yeah. Yes. [unclear] any of them.
SB: Well, yes. Yes, I’ll —
DV: That’s the German leaflet.
SB: Yes.
DV: The leaflet in German. I don’t know where we dropped. Oh yes. Only half of that.
SB: Yes. Did you routinely carry Nickels or only occasionally? Leaflets.
DV: Oh, no. Only at the beginning.
SB: Right.
DV: When we first started off. Leaflets. No.
SB: Try it this way. That’s better. Yeah.
DV: It goes better like that.
SB: Well —
DV: Do you get the light?
SB: I’m trying to avoid the reflection of the [pause] let’s try up here. No. Better where I was. We’ll be ok. That’s better. [pause] What did you do after you came out of the Air Force?
DV: I had been working in a firm in London. Wholesalers. They don’t have wholesalers now but we were selling all kinds of things and went back to the firm.
SB: Right.
DV: For a year or so. Then I started out in, I got a business on my own.
SB: Oh right.
DV: It was a shop.
SB: Oh, what sort of a shop was that?
DV: Well, ladieswear.
SB: Oh, right.
DV: What I was in in the wholesalers I left with the sort of thing I knew. It seemed a bit strange coming from [unclear] into ladieswear but still. Then I stayed there for a little while and I then opened a retail business of my own. A [unclear] service I was in. A retail business of my own.
SB: That was locally to here was it?
DV: No [unclear]
SB: Oh right.
DV: I had that for thirty eight years.
SB: Did you really? Goodness.
DV: Yeah. But then I also had another one down here at [unclear] for a time.
SB: Yes.
DV: It was a time when my wife Pamela joined. Came to work for me. Then we eventually got married.
SB: Oh right.
DV: My story is I got married to cut my wage bill down. Those things there are the little leaflets sort of handed —
SB: Messages for use in the air. Yes.
DV: Yes. To, to by the navigator to the pilot.
SB: Yes.
DV: On where to fly.
SB: Yes.
DV: I don’t know if that’s of any interest.
SB: Oh, absolutely.
[pause]
DV: Oh yes. Now, that, that is a thing in the early days they had on the flat here they had a unit they had there.
SB: Oh, tell us about your Battle for Britain. Battle of Britain. Is that it?
DV: Oh yes. That’s it. Yes. Yes. I’m in that photograph somewhere. You can’t [pause] is it that there? Oh, this is the earliest days when all the people that were waiting to be, going into training.
SB: Oh right.
DV: That was Southend front there —
SB: Oh right.
DV: I photographed it. I’m in there somewhere. But where the hell I think I’m on the top there. I’m not sure.
SB: Oh right.
DV: Yeah. There was a newspaper cutting.
SB: Yes. Ah, got your Mess bill here from Grantham.
DV: Oh, yes. Yes.
SB: One pound six shillings and six pence.
DV: Yes [laughs].
SB: I hope you paid it. Oh, it says you did.
DV: Oh, it says paid does it?
SB: Yes.
DV: Well, there I was. I wasn’t, we were in the Officer’s Mess there although I wasn’t, oh that one there is interesting. That’s me in a glider.
SB: Oh, I saw you had a glider certificate.
DV: The earliest stages we had a, before I started with a unit or anything I think it was a weekend. We could spend a weekend and that was sort of shot off a hill.
SB: And where was that?
DV: I’ve forgotten the name of the place. It was [pause] Oh, there’s wedding photograph there. I’ve got it here.
SB: Right. Now, let’s have a look at the detail in here.
[pause]
SB: So Flight Lieutenant Wills was your regular instructor it seems.
DV: Was he? I don’t remember that. What was that on?
SB: On the Tiger Moths.
DV: Oh yes. Yes. That was —
SB: Yes.
DV: At the earlier stages I didn’t know whether I would become a fighter pilot or a bomber pilot.
SB: Right.
DV: But I always remember they sent me up to do a slow roll. You know what a slow roll is do you?
SB: Oh, yes. Yes indeed. Yes.
DV: And I made such a blooming mess of this slow roll they thought I’d better fly bombers.
SB: Oh really?
DV: Rather than fighters, I think. That was the thing. One exercise was a loop and a roll at the top.
SB: Right.
DV: Are there several people you’ve interviewed?
SB: Oh yes. I mean perhaps I should explain why I’m doing the Wellington. I mean the twenty odd, twenty five years of interviewing people —
DV: Yes. Is it?
SB: Oh yes. And I’ll tell you the reason why I do this. I joined the Air Force in ’73.
DV: Right.
SB: Now, at that time there was still people serving who had served during the war.
DV: Yeah.
SB: So you’d hear people talking and interesting chats in the Mess.
DV: Yes.
SB: And that sort of stuff so I got to the point I thought I really ought to start recording this. So I started just having a tape-recording running while I was talking to people and eventually I thought, ‘Well, what am I doing with all this?’ So I spoke to the chap who runs Grub Street Publishing and said, ‘Look, I’ve got all this stuff.’ ‘Oh yes Great idea. Let’s put something together.’
DV: Yeah.
SB: So, that was the result but that only used about ten percent probably.
DV: Oh really. I didn’t know that.
SB: Of all the, I must have used —
DV: A whole load of information you must have.
SB: Oh yeah.
DV: Yeah.
SB: I mean interview is too strong a word. Chats.
DV: Yeah.
SB: I must have about a hundred and fifty now I should think.
DV: Oh God.
SB: So and then since that one I’ve done three other books and then I, he said to me, ‘What are you going to do next then?’ And I just suddenly thought of the Wellington. If you think of all the major wartime types that had been, had books about them the Lancaster is done to death and the Spitfire is done to death.
DV: Yes. Yeah.
SB: But the poor old Wimpie has never really —
DV: No.
SB: Been done very well.
DV: Never. It annoys me they never retain one. One Specimen. They recovered some from the sea or something.
SB: Well, there was. There’s two actually. There’s —
DV: True.
SB: Theres one which is normally at Hendon but which is at Cosford being refurbished at the moment and there’s the one they got out of Loch Ness.
DV: Yeah.
SB: Which is at Brooklands.
DV: I’ve read about that one.
SB: Yeah. Well, that is being restored. But that’s it.
DV: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
DV: But never sort of live something.
SB: No. No.
DV: Not one.
SB: That’s right. So I said, ‘Well, I’d like to do the Wellington.’ So I had a look to see what I already had in the can so to speak and I had about seven or eight Wellington chaps I’d spoken to I suppose. So I thought well now is the time to do it, you know. Now or never. So I put out an appeal on one of the websites contact me if there is anybody who either flew, maintained, wireless operators, gunners, whatever of Wellingtons or relatives or whatever and within a week I’d had contact from about twelve.
DV: Oh.
SB: And well [pause] these are all the people I’ve contacted for this book and there must be forty there on the left. So I’m currently going around doing this.
DV: Forty one now [laughs]
SB: But the thing is I want to cover not just the obvious bombing stuff and, and the Middle East of course. 205 Group. A lot there. Coastal Command, Anti-U-boat stuff, Far East, Transport. There’s mountains of stuff to put up.
DV: You mean all Wellingtons.
SB: All Wellingtons.
DV: All Wellingtons.
SB: Oh yeah. Yeah. So —
DV: I don’t know why they wouldn’t transfer me. I mean I’d have gone to Coastal Command. As I say I felt being a second pilot going thirteen missions and never flying the aircraft what a waste of time.
SB: Yes. It does seem strange doesn’t it?
DV: [unclear]
SB: Yeah.
DV: Taking risks without any point in it.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. It does seem very strange. Although strange things do happen. One of the chaps I spoke to a few weeks ago was a navigator on 9 Squadron.
DV: Yes.
SB: And he did similar to you. He did seventeen ops.
DV: Yeah.
SB: And this was on 9 Squadron at Honington and I said, ‘Well —’ and he kept saying, ‘We had a great time. It was great fun. We loved it.’
DV: Did he?
SB: Strange, you know.
DV: Yes. That is strange.
SB: It was tremendous fun.
DV: Fun?
SB: Yeah. He said it was fun and they had some pretty hairy moments too. Anyway, I said, ‘’Well, how come you only did seventeen then? What, why did you stop?’ And he said, ‘Oh, we got back from an op somewhere and I was called to the Medical Centre and was told you’re going to RAF Hospital Ely to be interviewed.’
DV: That’s where I went.
SB: Oh right.
DV: Hospital. Yeah.
SB: So you went there to be interviewed by a psychiatrist.
DV: Oh dear.
SB: After which he was taken off ops. So —
DV: He was.
SB: Whether they thought he was a bit too gung-ho.
DV: Too keen.
SB: Yeah. Too keen. Yeah.
DV: They must have thought it was a bit odd. I mean anybody who ever said they were never frightened. Well, I can’t believe it because —
SB: No, that’s right.
DV: I was frightened and I don’t know then some people didn’t show it. I don’t think I showed it for that matter.
SB: Well, no. Of course, as you say. Everybody was. But everybody I speak to is incredibly modest and says, ‘Oh, I didn’t do anything.’ Well, yes you did.
DV: Well, I didn’t do anything.
SB: But you did. You did.
DV: I say I was standing, well from where I was shot. Oh I didn’t, did I mention I don’t think I did in the middle of the aircraft they built a bullet proof door.
SB: Oh yes.
DV: Did I tell you this?
SB: Yes, you did. Yes. It was hinged.
DV: I was standing behind the middle [unclear] when I got shot.
SB: Yes.
DV: As I say looking at the Astro hatch the aircraft came so close. The German fighter came so close you could almost put your hand out and touch it.
SB: Really?
DV: How on earth we survived that I don’t know because that aircraft was firing its guns going all the time. We did see a little bit afterwards a little fire. We were, we were at ten thousand feet and see that little fire below us and I think it was we had shot down, the rear gunner I think had shot down one of the aircraft. I’m not surprised because he came, the German fighter came very close to us.
SB: Right.
DV: Made himself very vulnerable for our gunners. I think we shot down one anyway.
SB: Right.
DV: I don’t know if I mentioned this was it pat of the flying, there you go. From that position being caught in the searchlight dive right down low to the ground. And I remember looking out of the astro hatch. I saw a fishing boat going along the Zuiderzee.
SB: Really?
DV: Yeah.
SB: Gosh. You were pretty low then.
DV: Yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah [pause] One I often find when I’m having chats like this that they lead on to something else. Do you know old so and so —
DV: Yes. Yes.
SB: And I must tell you this story. You’ll like this. I was interviewing or sort of chatting to a chap in Ascot a couple of months ago.
DV: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: And he was a 40 Squadron chap and a fascinating career. He had a long career with BOAC after he came out and —
DV: Yeah.
SB: So on. And he said to me, ‘Oh, do you know my friend Terry Bulloch?’
DV: Yeah.
SB: ‘He lives in the next village,’ sort of thing.
DV: Yeah.
SB: I thought I know that name. Anyway, to cut a long story short he said, ‘Oh, he was in Coastal Command. Flew Liberators and sank four U-boats.’ Really?
DV: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: So I went to see this chap about a month or so ago and he has the record for the, the number of U-boats sunk by an aircrew.
DV: Yeah.
SB: A tremendously modest chap.
DV: Yeah.
SB: And going through his logs and going through his photographs and he came to a bit like that. A newspaper cutting from 1943.
DV: Yeah.
SB: Which said nine U-boats attacked. Two sunk. No. Sorry. Four U-boats attacked and two sunk in nine hours.
DV: That was him.
SB: There was all this, yes it was him, this was all on one pop. Oh yeah. Yeah. He said he didn’t do anything much you know.
DV: No.
SB: But the funny thing that that the final point of the story was in his scrapbook he had a signal from AO CnC Coastal Command.
DV: Yeah.
SB: “Congratulations on your success. Next time be more careful how much ammunition you expend.”
DV: Oh.
SB: Because in his report he said to sink the second U-boat he had to make four passes with depth charges.
DV: Yeah.
SB: So he got a telling off for using too many depth charges.
DV: Too many depth charges. Ridiculous.
SB: Yeah.
DV: They weren’t short of them surely.
SB: Well no. That’s right.
DV: Extraordinary.
SB: Was there anything else that you could think of David I haven’t asked you that, any little stories which you might remember?
DV: Did I, did I finish off the column? The bulletproof door.
SB: No. No.
DV: Well, they had this bulletproof door. It was on a hinge in the middle and flaps and we could lock them.
SB: Right.
DV: Blocking the whole of the, but it didn’t do that.
SB: Right.
DV: But it tended to flap backwards and forwards.
SB: Oh right. Right.
DV: And when we were attacked we were lucky technically for me where I was standing but they must have been opened. In spite of that I got somehow or other got shot and I got shot really because I had this in front of me but had I, of course when of course I was lucky. My head was completely exposed.
SB: Yes.
DV: [unclear] that way but after a time I believe after I came off I believe they took those away.
SB: Why?
DV: I think Bomber Harris decided that if you take them away you can have another bomb on. He was more concerned about bombs than he was about the life of the crew. So they were, I understand they were taken out.
SB: I’ve not heard about those before. They were intended to protect the pilots obviously. I guess that was the position just behind the pilots was it?
DV: Oh, no. No.
SB: No.
DV: This was the middle of the —
SB: Oh, the middle.
DV: Just close. Pretty close to where I was, I was standing.
SB: Right.
DV: In the astrodome.
SB: Oh, the astro. Oh, ok.
DV: Yes. That middle —
SB: Right.
DV: Covered the whole of the centre of the fuselage.
SB: Oh right. Right.
DV: Yeah. I believe they did away with it afterwards.
SB: Oh right.
DV: Because he could get another bomb on.
SB: I need to take a picture of you I’m afraid David if you don’t mind.
DV: No. No.
SB: Just for the record. Another one just to be sure. Thank you very much.
DV: Oh, taken it have you?
SB: Oh yes.
DV: I thought it would flash.
SB: No. No.
DV: It doesn’t flash.
SB: Well, it does but it tends to sort of bleach everything out of you. Yes. Well, that’s super. Could I ask you to sign a couple of things for me.
DV: Yes.
SB: Please. If you’d be so kind.
DV: You’ve written it.
SB: Yes. So —
DV: Different aircraft.
[tea talk]
DV: I see. Tell the story. We know that Germany [unclear] as well have you?
SB: Yes. What I like to do is to write some stories but really with lots of personal stories. Not just the historical what aircraft did what when.
DV: I thought you’d like —
SB: That’s from the chap —
DV: Details of the aircraft? Not particularly.
SB: Well, it’s more what you, what you did and what you experienced and those sorts of things.
DV: Oh. Yes. Right.
SB: So the reason I’m doing this —
DV: The thing is I only did thirteen. Thirteen missions.
SB: Right.
DV: And I was second pilot. I never flew the aircraft over enemy territory at all. Two, two pilots. I was merely there in case the other pilot got injured or killed.
SB: Right.
DV: If it so happened and I was the one if he didn’t. So you want the whole history. Well, as I’ve got it.
SB: Yeah. So you were on well let’s do the operations. So you were 218 Squadron. Is that right? 218? Or have I got that wrong? The squadron that you did your ops on.
DV: It says in there.
SB: Yes. 218.
DV: Right.
SB: Yeah. Ok.
DV: [unclear] in that lot. Now, that, that bit there is a leaflet. Only half of it. Only first half of it. I’ve lost half of it. In the early days we dropped leaflets instead of —
SB: Nickels.
DV: [unclear] yeah. Yes, we dropped leaflets before bombs.
SB: Yes.
DV: These were the early days.
SB: Sure. Sure.
DV: I don’t know if that is any interest to you. It is relevant of course.
SB: Absolutely. Yes. Well, let’s start in the beginning then. So you joined up in ’39. Is that right?
DV: Well, shall I start at the beginning?
SB: Yes, start at the beginning.
DV: Over here in Rochford.
SB: Right.
DV: I joined what was called the Civil Air Guard.
SB: Yes.
DV: Which was an organisation that the government had set to give people to have the courage, for people to learn to fly.
SB: Yeah.
DV: And I joined the Civil Air Guard and the government paid half your fee. You paid the rest of it. And then while I was over there for a time the RAF, well I made my first solo over there.
SB: What were you flying?
DV: Tiger Moths. No, actually at that time it wasn’t Tiger Moths. It was similar aircraft. I don’t know what it was.
SB: Ok.
DV: I did my first solo over there before I was even in the RAF and then I picked up half of my training fees and the government paid the other half. And then the RAF opened up a unit there, an RAFVR unit and I thought oh I’ll transfer to that and I paid all my training fees instead of having to half of it [unclear] Then suddenly the war happened and everything stopped.
SB: Yes.
DV: We were there for several months [unclear] we used to go down to the front unit and every two weeks they’d take my pay. That was, that was my war [laughs]. So eventually we, we went to Bexhill. No flying and we were just, just wasting fuel.
SB: Was this at ITW?
DV: Yes. It was just drill.
SB: Yeah.
DV: No flying. Nothing to do with flying. The fuel side of the RAF and that was it. De la Warr. Do you remember the De la Warr pavilion perhaps?
SB: I know of it. Yes. Yes. Right.
DV: You see it on pamphlets [unclear] and we were there.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Then after a time there eventually started [unclear] the next thing I went to a place called Desford. Have you ever heard of that?
SB: Yes, I have. Yes. Yes.
DV: So, that was my, I was flying Tiger Moths there. That was the initial. It started again from scratch as it were.
SB: Yeah.
DV: And went through a period with that on Tiger Moths. Then I went to Gran [pause] Grantham was it?
SB: Yeah. Grantham. Yes.
DV: Grantham. You’ve got that have you?
SB: Yeah.
DV: You know about Grantham. Yes. Grantham. I was flying Ansons. And there were, there were Battles there and Ansons. The people flying Battles came through and became fighter pilots. The ones on Ansons went on, on bombers or other aircraft.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
DV: So I had a period, a period there and then I went [unclear]
SB: Harwell after that.
DV: Sorry?
SB: So was it 15 OTU Harwell came after that. Is that right?
DV: Oh yes.
SB: Yes.
DV: Yes. Yes.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Oh you’ve got quite a long list there.
SB: Well, I’ve got your list here.
DV: Yes. More than I can remember rightly.
SB: Right. And there you crewed up presumably. At Harwell. Yes, at Harwell.
DV: Oh, no. Not at Harwell. No.
SB: Did you not?
DV: Well, what was Harwell? No. It was a —
SB: Harwell was the OTU.
DV: Oh yes. Yes.
SB: Yes.
DV: Yes. Oh, yes. That’s right. Yes.
SB: Right.
DV: No. No. There wasn’t any crew there. No. I was just. I think I was flying. Flying [pause] what’s the names?
SB: Wellingtons.
DV: Yes.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
DV: Yes. It’s got there it’s got one particular one when I was shot up and wounded. I expect you have found that have you there?
SB: What? While you were still at OTU you mean?
DV: Oh no. No.
SB: No. Ok. So you, well let’s, so you finished on OTU in December 1940 and then went to 218 Squadron at Marham. December 1940.
DV: Yes.
SB: Right. Ok.
DV: Yes.
SB: And Flying Officer Anstey. He was your first pilot was he? Anstey then changed to Agar.
DV: Agar. That’s right. Yes. That was the one I was with. Yeah. I was second pilot to him. As I say I never, never flew the aircraft —
SB: Right.
DV: Operationally at all. There wasn’t any need to with two pilots. I was just there in case the first pilot got killed or wounded so then I took over.
SB: Right.
DV: But that never happened fortunately.
SB: Right.
DV: We could have. We did get shot at. I was the one of the crew didn’t [unclear] the pilot who was flying the aircraft low.
SB: Would this be, you’ve got one here February the 11th ’41. Bremen. Low cloud over target. Crash landed in field.
DV: Oh yes.
SB: At Bassingham. Is that the one?
DV: No. No. No
SB: That was another one.
DV: That was another one.
SB: Right.
DV: Well, shall I tell you about what happened there?
SB: Yes, do. Yes.
DV: I’ll tell you that part. This is the second one actually.
SB: Right.
DV: Yes. We came back with our bombs. We couldn’t see anything. Low cloud over Germany and over here.
SB: Right.
DV: So we, so we brought our bombs back and we decided now what shall we do? Shall we go up? Take the aircraft up and jump by parachute. System George. You know, George was the automatic pilot. Take it out to sea or something to crash. Or shall, I say we I wasn’t following the aircraft that was the pilot, Flying Officer Agar should he, should he try to dip through. You could look, over the cloud you could look straight down. It was a big, the earth quite close you know flashing by. But coming from the pilot’s seat I couldn’t easily, couldn’t easily see.
SB: Right.
DV: Through. So, it was decided that he would, he would try to dip through. See a gap in a cloud. Dip through again in the cloud. Very low this is of course. We were only a few feet above ground level and [unclear] he came down and the next sort of thing there was a tree in front of him. He lifted up over the tree. There was a ploughed field. Wheels up. Made what they called a belly landing. You’ve probably got it recorded there again somewhere.
SB: It just says, “Crash landed in a field.” Yes.
DV: Yeah, that’s right.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Yes.
SB: Yes.
DV: This was a ploughed field on a, on a wheels up of course.
SB: Yes.
DV: As you probably know if you had the wheels up you did a [turtle] quite a belly landing as it was called. Oh, first of all I should have said dropped our bombs live over this country.
SB: Over this country.
DV: We didn’t want to land with bombs so we did that in case they went up. So we brought, had to bring all the bombs back. We couldn’t see anything. Anywhere to drop the bombs.
SB: Sure [Thank you very much. Thank you.] Right. So you just jettisoned them somewhere on the way back did you?
DV: Yes.
SB: Yes.
DV: I don’t know quite where. They’re probably still there. To drop them live you had to produce a pin.
SB: Yes.
DV: They didn’t explode.
SB: Right.
DV: But you wouldn’t have wanted them to land on their heads.
SB: Well absolutely. So was everybody ok after that forced landing?
DV: Oh yes. Yes. I recall we didn’t know where we were. We just all traipsed out. Found a road not far away. We walked along the road, found a, found a little house or a cottage or something. Knocked on the door. We must have scared them stiff I suppose seeing airmen. They’d think the Germans had arrived. But they, well they then phoned up. They must have gone through the RAF police [unclear] I suppose and they sent us transport and took us back there and eventually got word back to Marham.
SB: Right. Right. What sort of state was the aeroplane in?
DV: Well, I don’t know exactly. It wasn’t bad. Not terribly. It could be repaired I should think. It was in a bit of a state.
SB: Right.
DV: As the landing it was called a belly landing. It was a —
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
DV: Obviously damaged quite a bit.
SB: Oh sure. Yes. Yes.
DV: I dare say they recovered it by repairs.
SB: No. I think this must be the other one that you started to talk about. This is March the 13th ’41.
DV: That was where we were shot up.
SB: Yes.
DV: Yeah.
SB: Can you —
DV: When I was wounded.
SB: Can you talk me through that?
DV: Yes. Yes. Well, first of all we went to, I expect I’ve got it down there. German —
SB: It was Berlin the night before.
DV: No.
SB: And then it was Hamburg this target this time.
DV: Well, that’s [unclear] We went, we went to Hamburg. [unclear ] the coast of Holland and then around the [pause] I’m not sure of the river. Elbe?
SB: Yes.
DV: Maybe yeah. Down to Hamburg.
SB: Right.
DV: Which, which everything went alright. Dropped our bombs there and it was decided to come back over land.
SB: Right.
DV: This is going out. I don’t know why. Anyhow, we got as far as the Zuiderzee in Holland. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Zuiderzee.
SB: Oh, yeah.
DV: It’s not, I mean there’s no sea there and I think they recovered it. But over the Zeiderzee. Got caught in searchlights and waited a little bit on the searchlights and then two German Messerschmitt 110s, a twin engine they used as night fighters attacked us. Actually I’ve got the details there. And it’s fantastic how the aircraft survived. I think we shot down one of the aircraft and then Agar who was flying the plane dove right down to ground level. I got, I got, yes that’s right. I was standing in the astro hatch and I don’t know whether you are aware at the time of the fact that they that they had built in some, some doors. Bullet proof doors which are halfway through the fuselage.
SB: Right.
DV: And they were on a, on a hinge with a pillar which was in the middle halfway across the fuselage and the doors either way.
SB: Right.
DV: And they were sort of flapping backwards and forwards but at the time of the attack I think they must have been back. I was standing behind them in the astro hatch which was these things were just behind the, they were just behind the astro hatch. It was amazing how close that aircraft came, the German fighter came because I remember looking through the astro hatch and we [could have touched] they came that close.
SB: Really?
DV: Fantastic pilot all the time. I was the only one who got wounded. But the aircraft was shot to pieces but still kept on flying. One engine was on fire. So we came quite close to the Zuiderzee so we went out over the North Sea heading for Marham one engine on fire.
[background chatter]
DV: The petrol gauge was showing zero because what would have happened when I say the engine was on fire I think the fuel supply to one of the engines had been severed.
SB: Right.
DV: And it was sort of [pause] on fire every now and again. Then the speed of the aircraft sort of blew it out then it ignited again but apart from that we were losing petrol of course being that the fuel supply was severed and the petrol tank wasn’t, the engine was getting much petrol.
SB: Right.
DV: So virtually we came back over the North Sea with one engine. One engine, one engine on fire intermittently and landed at Marham. But I didn’t see much of it of course because I was, I was wounded in the leg. I went straight to hospital. I was told that the aircraft was in a hell of state, you know. It was still flying. I feel, feel that was due to the structure.
SB: Yeah.
DV: I don’t think most aircraft could have survived the punishment that the aircraft had had.
SB: Right. Right.
DV: Does anyone else —
[background refreshment chatter]
DV: [unclear]
SB: Right.
DV: I went straight to hospital so I don’t know quite how. I was told the aircraft was in a hell of a state but still, still flying. That was that. That was first and then the other one’s landing in the field.
SB: Right.
DV: Was afterwards.
SB: Right. Ok.
DV: Now, I got to thirteen missions.
SB: Yeah.
DV: And I then asked to come off. I thought it seemed useless to me. There I was I’d done thirteen missions and never, never flown the aircraft. Never flown the aircraft over enemy territory.
SB: Right.
DV: And I asked to come off Bomber Command and to go on to I think I asked for fighter. Fighters but —
SB: Right.
DV: Anything else. But as I say I was taking all the risk and nothing. Anyhow, one thing or another. Either come off flying or carry on as you are. I had to make a quick decision. I was just seconds. didn’t say well think about it and told me. I said, ‘Alright, I’m not flying,’ and that was the end of my flying career.
SB: Really?
DV: After thirteen missions. So, I haven’t got any stories to tell you.
SB: What did you do after that then?
DV: Oh, I joined a unit. I forget what it was. We went, we went out in a group of people. we were deciding, we were taking reading of the [pause] what was it? There were two bombs they were sending over.
SB: Oh the V-1 and V-2.
DV: Yes, that’s right. So, we were, we were I think it was the, I don’t know which it was we had to take readings of the [pause] we were a wireless unit and we recorded the [pause] from where we were the angle, you know. So somebody else was get the angle and tell them to get across and we would tell them where it was. But at the time unclear] someone was sent to bomb them and they’d moved. But still —
SB: Right.
DV: That was our job.
SB: Right. Right. Yes. Ok.
DV: And we got up quite close to the German lines and quite close so that was, that was nothing much. That was nothing to do with flying of course. I had longed to fly.
SB: When did you eventually leave the Air Force then?
DV: Oh, not ‘til the [pause] sometime after the end of the war.
SB: Right.
DV: I was demobbed.
SB: Just going back to the ops certainly early on in the war there was no, as you know there was no co-ordinated main force that Bomber Harris brought in when he came along. So at the time you were flying your ops was all your squadron going off at the same time or was it up to the original skippers when they, when went off and navigate? Would you navigate on your own or were you navigating as a force?
DV: No. All at the same time.
SB: You were.
DV: More or less.
SB: Right. Ok.
DV: I do recall when we went to Berlin the squadron leader they had, most of the aircraft were Bristol engines I think.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Hercules. But I do remember this. There was one aircraft that had Merlin engines on it.
SB: Right.
DV: And the squadron leader. When we all went out the squadron leader was way back and in bed before we got back. He got back much quicker with the Merlin engines.
SB: Right. Right.
DV: But there was only one aircraft that had Merlin. Had Merlin engines.
SB: Oh, that was on your squadron.
DV: Yes.
SB: Oh.
DV: Only one aircraft on the squadron.
SB: Yes, because the Mark 2 Merlin engine wasn’t that common an aeroplane was it?
DV: Probably not. No.
SB: No. What did you think of the Wellington?
DV: Oh, it was, I remember the experience.
SB: From your experience.
DV: It was easy enough to fly. I could fly it quite easily. I did, I did fly quite a bit but not operationally.
SB: Right.
DV: I remember one occasion my brother was in the Army and he was in a searchlight group not far along the coast of Norfolk. On one occasion I went out and I sort of shot him up. Then my wireless, my wireless operator came to me. He said, ‘Do you know our trailing aerial is out?’
SB: Oh no.
DV: You never told me that [unclear] or I wouldn’t have [unclear].’ [laughs]
SB: Yes.
DV: Not operationally.
SB: No. I understand that.
DV: No.
SB: No. A friend of mine had a similar experience actually. He was flying the Fairey Hendon just before the war and then moved on to Wellingtons.
DV: Oh. Yeah.
SB: And he was a wireless operator. He, he’d left the trailing aerial out similarly.
DV: Oh really?
SB: And they were beating up Duxford.
DV: Yeah.
SB: And when they got, and that, that was Marham as well actually.
DV: Was it?
SB: 38 Squadron. Yes.
DV: Yeah.
SB: When they got back to Marham there was a very irate phone call from a very irate man at Duxford to say his trailing aerial had done some damage to the CO’s Hawker Fury or something like that.
DV: [unclear] We didn’t do any damage when I flew around. Our wireless operator said to me when I was flying, he said, ‘Do you know the trailing aerial is out?’ I said, ‘No. I didn’t know that. No one told me.’ [laughs]
SB: Now, all your ops were night ops then. You didn’t do any daylights.
DV: No. No.
SB: Ok.
DV: No. The only beyond me they had [pause] I had great admiration for which Flying Officer Agar who was the first pilot. After you see I joined them when I came out of hospital. In actual fact, he, they’d had while I was in hospital even after that they had obviously a placement for me. A replacement for me and they were lost while sending an SOS over the North Sea. Never heard from —
SB: Really?
DV: Yeah.
SB: How long after you left them was that?
DV: Oh, I don’t remember.
SB: Not long?
DV: I think it was while I was in hospital or —
SB: Oh right.
DV: Perhaps I was just out. I’m not sure.
SB: Oh, gosh. Right.
DV: But the thing is had I not, pretty obviously had I not been wounded I would have been still with them and I would have been dressed with them and been killed with them.
SB: Yeah.
DV: It’s all a question of, all a question of luck.
SB: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.
DV: Some survived. Some didn’t.
SB: No. That’s right.
DV: I just happened to be the lucky one. As I say if I hadn’t been wounded, in hospital. Whilst I was in hospital another fellow came in. He was a New Zealander. He was a New Zealander pilot and he came into the ward when I was and I said, ‘What are you doing here now?’ He turned around and showed me the rear of his trousers. There was a hole in the trousers where he’d been shot in the bottom.
SB: Oh really? Oh dear.
DV: So he was in hospital. And afterwards obviously they went back.
SB: [McNeill]
DV: [McNeill]. I joined up with him and flew with him and we did a few missions with, I flew a few missions with him.
SB: So he was a New Zealander.
DV: Yes.
SB: What about the rest of the crew? Were they a mixture or were the rest of the crew all British or —
DV: Oh, I think they were all British.
SB: Yeah.
DV: Yeah.
SB: And in your first crew was it all British was it?
DV: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
DV: I think so. Yeah.
SB: Ok.
DV: I don’t know [unclear]
SB: Well, yeah I’ve got a great deal. It’s very very good. There’s a couple of others you might recall. 7th of May with Sergeant McNeill you went to Brest.
DV: Oh yes.
SB: To target the Scharnhorst.
DV: Oh yes.
SB: And then it says that you landed at Boscombe Down.
DV: Oh yes. That’s right. Yes.
SB: Was that for any particular reason or was it weather or were you damaged or what? Can you recall?
DV: We weren’t damaged.
SB: No.
DV: I don’t know why. But it was a very long flight from where we were. We came across the English coast before we could get to Marham.
SB: Sure. Yeah. Weather maybe then —
DV: I don’t know. Whether it was we came back to refuel perhaps before we got to Marham.
SB: Right. Your last one sounds quite interesting as well. May the 10th Hamburg. Your target was the Blohm and Voss Shipyards.
DV: Oh yeah.
SB: And you’ve written here, “Large fires observed. Very heavy flak and searchlights. Many fighters.” That sounds [laughs] like an interesting time.
DV: Where was that to?
SB: Hamburg.
DV: Oh, that’s right.
SB: The Blohm and Voss Shipyards.
DV: Oh, there was another time we were there because at Hamburg we got shot up.
SB: That’s right. Yes. Indeed.
DV: I don’t, I can’t remember that especially.
SB: No.
[pause]
SB: Marvellous. Ok. Now, what have you got here?
DV: I’ve got some pictures.
RV: Right.
DV: That’s me.
SB: That’s you. Right. Are you happy if I take photographs of these?
DV: Oh no. No. Yes, I mean.
SB: Yes [laughs] I took your no as being yes.
DV: But I’ll tell you what [unclear] at all I think. Can I just see them.
SB: Oh, of course. Of course. Of course.
DV: I can tell you. That is one of me.
SB: Right.
DV: At the controls. That is the [pause] now I’m not in that. That’s, that’s the crew I was with I think and that was, that’s flying officer Agar who I was with although I’m not in that.
SB: Right. Can you put names to any of the rest of them?
DV: No.
SB: No. Ok.
DV: I suppose it’s, it’s just a general photograph of me.
SB: Right.
DV: That is and that is.
SB: And what rank were you when you were demobbed?
DV: Sergeant.
DV: Sergeant. It says it is one of the crew. Now, this is the New Zealander.
SB: Oh, this was McNeill on the left.
DV: McNeill. Yes.
SB: Right. And you next to him. That’s rather good.
DV: That again I think was another one. There’s me there. There.
SB: Right.
DV: There.
SB: That’s McNeill again. Yes. Yeah.
DV: [unclear]
SB: Right. Very nice. Very nice shots.
DV: Yeah. Yes. [unclear] any of them.
SB: Well, yes. Yes, I’ll —
DV: That’s the German leaflet.
SB: Yes.
DV: The leaflet in German. I don’t know where we dropped. Oh yes. Only half of that.
SB: Yes. Did you routinely carry Nickels or only occasionally? Leaflets.
DV: Oh, no. Only at the beginning.
SB: Right.
DV: When we first started off. Leaflets. No.
SB: Try it this way. That’s better. Yeah.
DV: It goes better like that.
SB: Well —
DV: Do you get the light?
SB: I’m trying to avoid the reflection of the [pause] let’s try up here. No. Better where I was. We’ll be ok. That’s better. [pause] What did you do after you came out of the Air Force?
DV: I had been working in a firm in London. Wholesalers. They don’t have wholesalers now but we were selling all kinds of things and went back to the firm.
SB: Right.
DV: For a year or so. Then I started out in, I got a business on my own.
SB: Oh right.
DV: It was a shop.
SB: Oh, what sort of a shop was that?
DV: Well, ladieswear.
SB: Oh, right.
DV: What I was in in the wholesalers I left with the sort of thing I knew. It seemed a bit strange coming from [unclear] into ladieswear but still. Then I stayed there for a little while and I then opened a retail business of my own. A [unclear] service I was in. A retail business of my own.
SB: That was locally to here was it?
DV: No [unclear]
SB: Oh right.
DV: I had that for thirty eight years.
SB: Did you really? Goodness.
DV: Yeah. But then I also had another one down here at [unclear] for a time.
SB: Yes.
DV: It was a time when my wife Pamela joined. Came to work for me. Then we eventually got married.
SB: Oh right.
DV: My story is I got married to cut my wage bill down. Those things there are the little leaflets sort of handed —
SB: Messages for use in the air. Yes.
DV: Yes. To, to by the navigator to the pilot.
SB: Yes.
DV: On where to fly.
SB: Yes.
DV: I don’t know if that’s of any interest.
SB: Oh, absolutely.
[pause]
DV: Oh yes. Now, that, that is a thing in the early days they had on the flat here they had a unit they had there.
SB: Oh, tell us about your Battle for Britain. Battle of Britain. Is that it?
DV: Oh yes. That’s it. Yes. Yes. I’m in that photograph somewhere. You can’t [pause] is it that there? Oh, this is the earliest days when all the people that were waiting to be, going into training.
SB: Oh right.
DV: That was Southend front there —
SB: Oh right.
DV: I photographed it. I’m in there somewhere. But where the hell I think I’m on the top there. I’m not sure.
SB: Oh right.
DV: Yeah. There was a newspaper cutting.
SB: Yes. Ah, got your Mess bill here from Grantham.
DV: Oh, yes. Yes.
SB: One pound six shillings and six pence.
DV: Yes [laughs].
SB: I hope you paid it. Oh, it says you did.
DV: Oh, it says paid does it?
SB: Yes.
DV: Well, there I was. I wasn’t, we were in the Officer’s Mess there although I wasn’t, oh that one there is interesting. That’s me in a glider.
SB: Oh, I saw you had a glider certificate.
DV: The earliest stages we had a, before I started with a unit or anything I think it was a weekend. We could spend a weekend and that was sort of shot off a hill.
SB: And where was that?
DV: I’ve forgotten the name of the place. It was [pause] Oh, there’s wedding photograph there. I’ve got it here.
SB: Right. Now, let’s have a look at the detail in here.
[pause]
SB: So Flight Lieutenant Wills was your regular instructor it seems.
DV: Was he? I don’t remember that. What was that on?
SB: On the Tiger Moths.
DV: Oh yes. Yes. That was —
SB: Yes.
DV: At the earlier stages I didn’t know whether I would become a fighter pilot or a bomber pilot.
SB: Right.
DV: But I always remember they sent me up to do a slow roll. You know what a slow roll is do you?
SB: Oh, yes. Yes indeed. Yes.
DV: And I made such a blooming mess of this slow roll they thought I’d better fly bombers.
SB: Oh really?
DV: Rather than fighters, I think. That was the thing. One exercise was a loop and a roll at the top.
SB: Right.
DV: Are there several people you’ve interviewed?
SB: Oh yes. I mean perhaps I should explain why I’m doing the Wellington. I mean the twenty odd, twenty five years of interviewing people —
DV: Yes. Is it?
SB: Oh yes. And I’ll tell you the reason why I do this. I joined the Air Force in ’73.
DV: Right.
SB: Now, at that time there was still people serving who had served during the war.
DV: Yeah.
SB: So you’d hear people talking and interesting chats in the Mess.
DV: Yes.
SB: And that sort of stuff so I got to the point I thought I really ought to start recording this. So I started just having a tape-recording running while I was talking to people and eventually I thought, ‘Well, what am I doing with all this?’ So I spoke to the chap who runs Grub Street Publishing and said, ‘Look, I’ve got all this stuff.’ ‘Oh yes Great idea. Let’s put something together.’
DV: Yeah.
SB: So, that was the result but that only used about ten percent probably.
DV: Oh really. I didn’t know that.
SB: Of all the, I must have used —
DV: A whole load of information you must have.
SB: Oh yeah.
DV: Yeah.
SB: I mean interview is too strong a word. Chats.
DV: Yeah.
SB: I must have about a hundred and fifty now I should think.
DV: Oh God.
SB: So and then since that one I’ve done three other books and then I, he said to me, ‘What are you going to do next then?’ And I just suddenly thought of the Wellington. If you think of all the major wartime types that had been, had books about them the Lancaster is done to death and the Spitfire is done to death.
DV: Yes. Yeah.
SB: But the poor old Wimpie has never really —
DV: No.
SB: Been done very well.
DV: Never. It annoys me they never retain one. One Specimen. They recovered some from the sea or something.
SB: Well, there was. There’s two actually. There’s —
DV: True.
SB: Theres one which is normally at Hendon but which is at Cosford being refurbished at the moment and there’s the one they got out of Loch Ness.
DV: Yeah.
SB: Which is at Brooklands.
DV: I’ve read about that one.
SB: Yeah. Well, that is being restored. But that’s it.
DV: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
DV: But never sort of live something.
SB: No. No.
DV: Not one.
SB: That’s right. So I said, ‘Well, I’d like to do the Wellington.’ So I had a look to see what I already had in the can so to speak and I had about seven or eight Wellington chaps I’d spoken to I suppose. So I thought well now is the time to do it, you know. Now or never. So I put out an appeal on one of the websites contact me if there is anybody who either flew, maintained, wireless operators, gunners, whatever of Wellingtons or relatives or whatever and within a week I’d had contact from about twelve.
DV: Oh.
SB: And well [pause] these are all the people I’ve contacted for this book and there must be forty there on the left. So I’m currently going around doing this.
DV: Forty one now [laughs]
SB: But the thing is I want to cover not just the obvious bombing stuff and, and the Middle East of course. 205 Group. A lot there. Coastal Command, Anti-U-boat stuff, Far East, Transport. There’s mountains of stuff to put up.
DV: You mean all Wellingtons.
SB: All Wellingtons.
DV: All Wellingtons.
SB: Oh yeah. Yeah. So —
DV: I don’t know why they wouldn’t transfer me. I mean I’d have gone to Coastal Command. As I say I felt being a second pilot going thirteen missions and never flying the aircraft what a waste of time.
SB: Yes. It does seem strange doesn’t it?
DV: [unclear]
SB: Yeah.
DV: Taking risks without any point in it.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. It does seem very strange. Although strange things do happen. One of the chaps I spoke to a few weeks ago was a navigator on 9 Squadron.
DV: Yes.
SB: And he did similar to you. He did seventeen ops.
DV: Yeah.
SB: And this was on 9 Squadron at Honington and I said, ‘Well —’ and he kept saying, ‘We had a great time. It was great fun. We loved it.’
DV: Did he?
SB: Strange, you know.
DV: Yes. That is strange.
SB: It was tremendous fun.
DV: Fun?
SB: Yeah. He said it was fun and they had some pretty hairy moments too. Anyway, I said, ‘’Well, how come you only did seventeen then? What, why did you stop?’ And he said, ‘Oh, we got back from an op somewhere and I was called to the Medical Centre and was told you’re going to RAF Hospital Ely to be interviewed.’
DV: That’s where I went.
SB: Oh right.
DV: Hospital. Yeah.
SB: So you went there to be interviewed by a psychiatrist.
DV: Oh dear.
SB: After which he was taken off ops. So —
DV: He was.
SB: Whether they thought he was a bit too gung-ho.
DV: Too keen.
SB: Yeah. Too keen. Yeah.
DV: They must have thought it was a bit odd. I mean anybody who ever said they were never frightened. Well, I can’t believe it because —
SB: No, that’s right.
DV: I was frightened and I don’t know then some people didn’t show it. I don’t think I showed it for that matter.
SB: Well, no. Of course, as you say. Everybody was. But everybody I speak to is incredibly modest and says, ‘Oh, I didn’t do anything.’ Well, yes you did.
DV: Well, I didn’t do anything.
SB: But you did. You did.
DV: I say I was standing, well from where I was shot. Oh I didn’t, did I mention I don’t think I did in the middle of the aircraft they built a bullet proof door.
SB: Oh yes.
DV: Did I tell you this?
SB: Yes, you did. Yes. It was hinged.
DV: I was standing behind the middle [unclear] when I got shot.
SB: Yes.
DV: As I say looking at the Astro hatch the aircraft came so close. The German fighter came so close you could almost put your hand out and touch it.
SB: Really?
DV: How on earth we survived that I don’t know because that aircraft was firing its guns going all the time. We did see a little bit afterwards a little fire. We were, we were at ten thousand feet and see that little fire below us and I think it was we had shot down, the rear gunner I think had shot down one of the aircraft. I’m not surprised because he came, the German fighter came very close to us.
SB: Right.
DV: Made himself very vulnerable for our gunners. I think we shot down one anyway.
SB: Right.
DV: I don’t know if I mentioned this was it pat of the flying, there you go. From that position being caught in the searchlight dive right down low to the ground. And I remember looking out of the astro hatch. I saw a fishing boat going along the Zuiderzee.
SB: Really?
DV: Yeah.
SB: Gosh. You were pretty low then.
DV: Yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah [pause] One I often find when I’m having chats like this that they lead on to something else. Do you know old so and so —
DV: Yes. Yes.
SB: And I must tell you this story. You’ll like this. I was interviewing or sort of chatting to a chap in Ascot a couple of months ago.
DV: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: And he was a 40 Squadron chap and a fascinating career. He had a long career with BOAC after he came out and —
DV: Yeah.
SB: So on. And he said to me, ‘Oh, do you know my friend Terry Bulloch?’
DV: Yeah.
SB: ‘He lives in the next village,’ sort of thing.
DV: Yeah.
SB: I thought I know that name. Anyway, to cut a long story short he said, ‘Oh, he was in Coastal Command. Flew Liberators and sank four U-boats.’ Really?
DV: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: So I went to see this chap about a month or so ago and he has the record for the, the number of U-boats sunk by an aircrew.
DV: Yeah.
SB: A tremendously modest chap.
DV: Yeah.
SB: And going through his logs and going through his photographs and he came to a bit like that. A newspaper cutting from 1943.
DV: Yeah.
SB: Which said nine U-boats attacked. Two sunk. No. Sorry. Four U-boats attacked and two sunk in nine hours.
DV: That was him.
SB: There was all this, yes it was him, this was all on one pop. Oh yeah. Yeah. He said he didn’t do anything much you know.
DV: No.
SB: But the funny thing that that the final point of the story was in his scrapbook he had a signal from AO CnC Coastal Command.
DV: Yeah.
SB: “Congratulations on your success. Next time be more careful how much ammunition you expend.”
DV: Oh.
SB: Because in his report he said to sink the second U-boat he had to make four passes with depth charges.
DV: Yeah.
SB: So he got a telling off for using too many depth charges.
DV: Too many depth charges. Ridiculous.
SB: Yeah.
DV: They weren’t short of them surely.
SB: Well no. That’s right.
DV: Extraordinary.
SB: Was there anything else that you could think of David I haven’t asked you that, any little stories which you might remember?
DV: Did I, did I finish off the column? The bulletproof door.
SB: No. No.
DV: Well, they had this bulletproof door. It was on a hinge in the middle and flaps and we could lock them.
SB: Right.
DV: Blocking the whole of the, but it didn’t do that.
SB: Right.
DV: But it tended to flap backwards and forwards.
SB: Oh right. Right.
DV: And when we were attacked we were lucky technically for me where I was standing but they must have been opened. In spite of that I got somehow or other got shot and I got shot really because I had this in front of me but had I, of course when of course I was lucky. My head was completely exposed.
SB: Yes.
DV: [unclear] that way but after a time I believe after I came off I believe they took those away.
SB: Why?
DV: I think Bomber Harris decided that if you take them away you can have another bomb on. He was more concerned about bombs than he was about the life of the crew. So they were, I understand they were taken out.
SB: I’ve not heard about those before. They were intended to protect the pilots obviously. I guess that was the position just behind the pilots was it?
DV: Oh, no. No.
SB: No.
DV: This was the middle of the —
SB: Oh, the middle.
DV: Just close. Pretty close to where I was, I was standing.
SB: Right.
DV: In the astrodome.
SB: Oh, the astro. Oh, ok.
DV: Yes. That middle —
SB: Right.
DV: Covered the whole of the centre of the fuselage.
SB: Oh right. Right.
DV: Yeah. I believe they did away with it afterwards.
SB: Oh right.
DV: Because he could get another bomb on.
SB: I need to take a picture of you I’m afraid David if you don’t mind.
DV: No. No.
SB: Just for the record. Another one just to be sure. Thank you very much.
DV: Oh, taken it have you?
SB: Oh yes.
DV: I thought it would flash.
SB: No. No.
DV: It doesn’t flash.
SB: Well, it does but it tends to sort of bleach everything out of you. Yes. Well, that’s super. Could I ask you to sign a couple of things for me.
DV: Yes.
SB: Please. If you’d be so kind.
Collection
Citation
S Bond and D Vandervord, “Interview with David Vandervord,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed May 21, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/50683.
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