Conversation with Cliff Hobbs
Title
Conversation with Cliff Hobbs
Description
Cliff mentions that he had interviewed his pilot Peter Fotherby, looking for further information about some incidents. He describes volunteering for RAF and training as an air gunner in Ansons. He was posted to Middle East, trained and crewed up at 76 OTU. Cliff mentions bulls eye and searchlight cooperation sorties and talks about his pilot Peter Fotherby. Cliff joins 104 Squadron. He describes sorties with Australian crew, as well as giving details of several other sorties, including being attacked by Ju 88, suffering flak damage and being closed by unidentified aircraft. He talks about thetrial of captured Ju 88 verses Wellington. Cliff describes an attack on airfield in Hungary with a 4000 lb bomb and an attack on a marshalling yard, which could still be seen burning from 100 miles away. There is discussion about how he felt about losses and how he coped. He talks about service as an MT driver in returning to UK. Cliff concludes with some discussion about Wellington gun turrets.
Date
2013-09-08
Temporal Coverage
Spatial Coverage
Coverage
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Type
Format
00:36:48 audio recording
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Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
SBondS-HobbsCv10002
Transcription
CH: Thank you. I’m fine now. I’ll delve deep down in my book and see if I can help you.
SB: Ok. Well, I’m sure you can.
CH: Well, I will try anyway.
SB: I don’t know how much Peter told you, Cliff. I’m ex-Air Force myself but somewhat later. I’ve done a few books up until now on wartime experiences and so on.
CH: Yes.
SB: And it just occurred to me, happily my publisher agreed that it was about time somebody did a decent book on the Wimpy.
CH: Right. Well, there has been some printing on the Wimpy as you know.
SB: Oh, I do know indeed. Yes. Sure.
CH: “Bombers —" with sand, “Over Sand and Snow.”
SB: Oh right. Yes.
CH: Which was 205 Group records really. He’s more or less made his way through the whole lot.
SB: Right. Yes. I’m familiar with that and there are some very good Wellington books on particular aspects as you say such as 205 Group.
CH: Yes.
SB: And on the, the early Bomber Command efforts and so on but what I’m, what I’m trying to cover is everything. So as you know I did a lot of coastal work. A lot of work out in the Far East. Transports even. So I’m trying to cover all the aspects.
CH: Right.
SB: And so hence searching around for chaps like yourself to chat, to chat to about their experiences and so we go on. So when I, when I visited Peter he, he took me through the tour that you and he did.
CH: Yes.
SB: Now, sorry I’m just really looking as I mentioned on the phone yesterday, just really looking for sort of your aspects of it. I mean, there, there were two or three things I picked out from his log which I’m sure must have given you a little bit of excitement. A few encounters with Junkers 88s and so on.
CH: Yeah.
SB: So, well could we just start at the beginning a little bit first, Cliff. When did you actually join up?
CH: I actually volunteered in 1942.
SB: Right.
CH: At seventeen and a quarter.
SB: Oh, ok.
CH: And they, they put, sent me to a deferred service ATC squadron.
SB: Oh really? Oh.
CH: So I had, I didn’t actually, I wasn’t called up. I was [pause] I went to what they called 2042 Squadron here in Bristol.
SB: Oh yes.
CH: And I had to attend three nights a week doing aircraft rec and Morse Code and that sort of thing.
SB: Oh right.
CH: That lasted more or less about [pause] I suppose it was nearly a twelve month.
SB: Right. Ok.
CH: And then I was actually called up on August Bank Holiday Monday which was August the 3rd or 4th I think it was 1943.
SB: Right. Right. So then where did you do your wireless training? Would that have been Yatesbury?
CH: No. I didn’t do wireless training at all.
SB: Oh, you didn’t. Right. So you went straight to gunnery then after your basic training did you?
CH: Straight to gunnery. Yeah.
SB: And where did you do that?
CH: We did that, I did that at Dalcross in Scotland.
SB: Oh, yes. Yes.
CH: I started off at, went through to London to Lord’s Cricket Ground —
SB: Yeah.
CH: The August Monday.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And received the King’s Shilling.
SB: Right.
CH: And then we were housed in a block of flats in London. Exactly where I can’t think at the moment.
SB: Sure.
CH: But and then we were taken up to our ITW at Bridlington.
SB: Ah.
CH: I had a month at Bridlington.
SB: Right.
CH: From there we went, from that OTU we went across to Bridgnorth.
SB: Oh yes.
CH: Bridgnorth was our Elementary Air Gunnery School.
SB: Right.
CH: And then from there we went to number 2 ATS which was at Dalcross in Scotland.
SB: Right. So that would have been in Ansons I’m guessing.
CH: Yes. It was in Ansons. Yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CH: There in the October. Early October through into November.
SB: Right.
CH: And yes I had my first flight in an Anson.
SB: Oh, did you? Right.
CH: I’d never flown before and —
SB: Oh right.
CH: But yes, it was quite an experience. There were three air gunners and a flight sergeant instructor.
SB: Right.
CH: And the pilot.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And we took off and got over [pause] over the sea and an aircraft came along with a drogue, flying the drogue and number 1 gunner was told to get up in the turret. ‘Sorry sergeant, I can’t do it. I don’t feel well.’
SB: Oh.
CH: He was taken ill. The flight instructor told number 2 to do it and the same thing happened.
SB: Really.
CH: With that the instructor was taken ill and the pilot said, ‘Are you alright?’ And fortunately, I was and I, he said, ‘Well, get up in the turret and fire the rounds off and we’ll have a wander around.’ [laughs] And he was very generous and he took me, he flew over Inverness and he said, you know as I’d never flown before he was quite helpful and showed all sorts of things that he could do.
SB: Oh right.
CH: The other three were very painful in the back suffering the agonies of air sickness.
SB: Oh golly. Really? Was it a particularly rough day in?
CH: Not really. No. I thought, I don’t know, I mean it didn’t seem rough to me. I was thoroughly enjoying it.
SB: Made of sterner stuff.
CH: Maybe [laughs] yeah. Well, then yeah, so that’s did quite a few trips obviously in the Anson. All sorts of firing with photographic and some rounds as well. So it —
SB: Right.
CH: Finished, I finished that the 21st of November ’43.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And then we were I was sent home on indefinite leave and I’d only been home three days and they recalled me.
SB: Oh.
CH: We were then on the boat and out to the Middle East.
SB: Right.
CH: So that —
SB: So, that was at the 76 OTU, was it?
CH: Yes, it was at 76 OTU.
SB: Right.
CH: It was quite a timed decking there really because we landed in Alexandria. We were in Alexandria what, about a fortnight and then we went through to Jerusalem. We were in Jerusalem for about six weeks. We finished up at 76 OTU.
SB: Right. Right.
CH: And then of course I should think Peter told you the marriage market.
SB: Yes [laughs]
CH: Being that.
SB: Yeah.
CH: I must admit I was one of the lucky ones that Peter had got hold of me and he said he wanted me and that was wonderful and he he was an exceptionally good pilot.
SB: Right. Right.
CH: You know, without his ability and understanding and his facing all of us as a crew I don’t think we’d be here.
SB: Right. Right.
CH: He never queried anything.
SB: Really? No.
CH: He always trusted us all. We were there to do a job and we would do it the best of our ability.
SB: Yeah.
CH: So therefore he didn’t query what we were asked to do or —
SB: Right. Right. I see in your couple of months on OTU you did a couple of bullseyes.
CH: Yes.
SB: And I see from Peter’s log it talks about night cross country. Bullseye. Searchlight cooperation. How did that work then, Cliff? What was involved in searchlight cooperation?
CH: Quite truthfully I don’t really [pause] as far as that it was just that we were flying over some of these cross countries over some of the towns and the idea as far as I can gather was to allow them to catch you in the searchlights and then endeavour to get out of it.
SB: Right. Yes.
CH: That was sort of something. And then another night it would be avoid any contact with the searchlights. They would search for you but get out of the way if you can.
SB: Oh right. So that was Peter’s chance to practice his corkscrewing then I guess.
CH: Yes. Yes.
SB: Right.
CH: [laughs] I think.
SB: Ok. So then I suppose you move on to 104.
CH: We moved on to 104.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And that [pause] actually we got there in the beginning of May.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And we, we did our first operation on the 14th so —
SB: Right.
CH: A long time.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
CH: Happening but yes it, that was quite fun as a second gunner. I was in the astrodome.
SB: Oh right.
CH: We, fortunately they gave us two trips as second, as a second gunner but I had no guns. I was just in the astrodome.
SB: Oh right.
CH: But the first one I did was with a Flight Sergeant Smith who was an Australian.
SB: Yeah.
CH: We were doing ops in Northern Italy and we went over the Tagliamento rail bridge.
SB: Yeah.
CH: There’s one that Peter might have gone with someone else. I don’t know.
SB: Right.
CH: But when they dropped their bombs being an Australian crew they wanted to go and see if they’d hit anything which I I thought well the object when you’ve been and bombed is to get home just as fast as you can.
SB: Quite.
CH: The nose went down on the aircraft and they sort of skimmed. Well, I wouldn’t say skimmed but they went quite down, quite low. About a thousand feet and had a look to see if their —
SB: To see if they hit anything.
CH: Yes. I was glad to get home that night.
SB: Yeah. I bet you were [laughs] Yes.
CH: Especially, we were [unclear] anyway, we had a laugh with that since then.
SB: Well, yes. Sure. So when was your first trip with Peter and the rest of your regular crew?
CH: Right. I will tell you in just one second. It was actually on the 4th of June. 4th and 5th of June.
SB: Oh right.
CH: That was we went to [Terni.] A road crossing.
SB: Right.
CH: Centre of [Terni.] We were backing up the Army actually in fact, because this was where the Germans were situated and they were holding it and that’s why we —
SB: Right.
CH: Bombed it.
SB: Right.
CH: And then followed it again a couple of nights later with a further bombing there.
SB: Right. Right. Ok.
CH: Nothing major. You know, a little bit of flak and that sort of thing but nothing —
SB: Yes.
CH: Nothing really threatening.
SB: So, so your regular crew position you were in the rear turret were you?
CH: I was in the rear turret. Yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. I see, again I’m obviously looking at my copies of Peter’s logbook while we’re going through this. 2nd and 3rd of July is one that looks to stand out and he’s got Bucharest where you were flying. “We were attacked by a Junkers 88 at target plus —” I guess he means you, ‘From an unidentified single engine aircraft later.
CH: That’s right.
SB: Well, that sounds that it might have been a bit sporty. Do you recall that one?
CH: Yes I do. Well, it was. Yes. I was lucky I saw it before it saw us and we took the usual evasive action to get away from it and —
SB: So he didn’t get a shot in at you or anything.
CH: Pardon?
SB: He didn’t get a shot in at you.
CH: No, he didn’t and I didn’t shoot at it. With a JU88 they had cannon fire and they were, upset them and they were much more likely to get you.
SB: Well, yes. Yes.
CH: That was my principal anyway.
SB: Well, yes. Sure.
CH: And that’s how to be absolutely sure of striking the aircraft they had to be a lot closer than the JU88 was at that time.
SB: Yes. Well, I’m sure their cannon had quite a lot more range than your 303s.
CH: Much greater range.
SB: Yes.
CH: It would have been a waste of time. It would have, as I say I think it would have put them ready to to follow but if I’d been away underneath it might have. There probably was another one going further ahead that they could see instead you know.
SB: Yes. It’s interesting you should say that because one of the things I’ve read fairly recently is a report written by Farnborough about trials with a captured JU88 against a Wellington and various other aircraft and it talks about, you know the usual coming up behind and so on and the rear gunner giving the pilot, ‘Corkscrew port.’ ‘Corkscrew starboard.’ Whatever. But the report says that that the JU88 couldn’t really follow a Wimpy if it corkscrewed. It could follow Halifaxes and Lancs they tried it against but they couldn’t follow a Wimpy and I found that quite surprising.
CH: The only thing I can say is when I told Peter to dive port the G stress in the turret was such that I couldn’t move. And then, I don’t know how steeply he was diving we lost I mean it just I felt he was handling a fighter plane the way he was. That’s the feeling I got then.
SB: Yes.
CH: He was holding me tight on my seat and I couldn’t actually rotate the turret which is so stupid I know but it was happening. Peter didn’t do things by halves. He made sure that we were, that we got out of the way very very quickly.
SB: Yes. Yeah. Sure. Sure. The next one I’ve got here. July 6th 7th attacking aerodromes in Austria and you’ve got some flak damage that night it seems.
CH: That was [pause] that was an unpleasant one. The Yanks had gone out during the day or a day before and had been attacked by fighters from, in Austria and they sent the Wimpies out to bomb the airfield. Well, it was quite a long trip as you can gather with six five hundreds on board. I don’t know that we did a tremendous amount of damage looking at it now. But when we were there there was quite a lot of flak over the cracks.
SB: Yes.
CH: We stopped the fighters from getting up.
SB: Yes.
CH: When we arrived and managed to bomb them out of existence I don’t know.
SB: Right. Right. Yeah.
CH: Quite the experience.
SB: Yes. I would imagine it was. Well, let’s see. What else have we got? I mean please do leap in. I’m picking out ones at random really but I see you’ve got another occasion when going into August. August 12th 13th.
CH: Yeah.
SB: Hajdύbӧszӧrmény if that’s how you pronounce it. Aerodrome in Hungary. And again attacked by an unknown twin engine aircraft.
CH: That’s right. Yes. Hajdύbӧszӧrmény.
SB: I’m glad you can say that.
CH: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean —
SB: Oh no. No. Don’t be.
CH: To be honest I’m just reading my logbook myself.
SB: Right.
CH: Mind you, we had a four thousand pounder on that one.
SB: Yes.
CH: A horrible thing actually because you don’t have any bomb doors on with a four thousand pounder. Not with a Wellington.
SB: Right.
CH: It thunders away and you just have the bomb underneath. It was surprising when the bomb was released you feel the lift of the aircraft you know.
SB: Oh gosh. I imagine so. Yes.
CH: It’s quite an experience. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CH: We did alright there as far as I can recall.
SB: Right. Right.
CH: It was, we did have quite a fair bit of flak but no, no real problems.
SB: Right. I mean are there any, any trips that particularly stick in your memory? Apart from the ones we’ve already mentioned.
CH: Yeah. I’m just trying to think which one it was but there was one which I think it [pause] I know it was [pause] give me a second.
SB: Yes, of course. Yes.
CH: I’ll see if I can find it.
[pause]
CH: The one that really stands out in my mind was we were bombing a [pause] one of the oil refineries, the marshalling yards. I think it was Miskolc in Hungary again.
SB: Right.
CH: We did have some trouble going in. An unidentified fighter or some other aircraft was close to us and couldn’t be identified.
SB: Oh, that’s ok on this. Was it the 20/21st September I think might be the one you’re talking about.
CH: It would be twenty [pause] yeah. Hegyeshalom. That one.
SB: Yeah.
CH: When we went in we dropped our bombs and we had been taking evasive action on the way in and at the last minute the bomb aimer saw the marshalling yards ahead and he said, ‘Can we go straight?’ And that’s, Peter immediately said yes and I kept my eyes skimmed and the wireless op went up in the astrodome for the same reason, to make sure that everything was ok. And we went in and we, we were the first to sort of drop our bombs there and they went right across the goods yard blowing up quite a few trucks there and my memory is of getting quickly away from there as fast as we could and we were over a hundred miles away and I could still see the fires burning in the marshalling yards.
SB: Good grief.
CH: It was you know quite a successful evening really.
SB: Gosh. Yeah.
CH: And that’s my memory of that event.
SB: Right. Yeah. Yes, I’ve actually found some while you were just talking about that one Peter provided me with some written notes he’s got in addition to his logbook for each of those ops.
CH: Oh yeah.
SB: And he, I don’t know if you’ve seen that from him at all have you?
CH: I’ve seen his logbook. Yes.
SB: Yeah, but I mean he’s got some longer written notes about each op.
CH: He does. He did. He was excellent and he always wrote up almost like a diary.
SB: Yes. I mean for that particular one he said it was a five hour twenty five op. “A dicey one again. All the usual fun and games and coloured lights. One shot down very near me over Zagreb. Another at [unclear]” if that’s the pronunciation, “And two more at the top turning points. I lost four on the way in.”
CH: Yes.
SB: Oh, two more on the way in. Goodness me.
CH: Yeah. Two more.
SB: ”Attacked by a 109 but Eddie saw it in time. Did a steep diving turn to the target before the target indicators went down. Bombed and achieved perfect direct hits confirmed by a clear photograph from three thousand feet. Five and a half thousand feet being the agreed height. Shook off the fighter and went down to ground level for the return leg.”
CH: That’s right. Yeah.
SB: Well, yeah. That. Golly, that was a pretty severe night for the, for loss wasn’t it? Six on the way in.
CH: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. I mean obviously as we know lots of guys were lost. Lots of chaps were lost. I mean what was the, what indication did you have when you got back? I mean were you aware that it had perhaps been a rough one for the squadron or was it just, you know people were missing from breakfast the next morning? I mean how did that sort of work out for you?
CH: Well, we unfortunately you tended to, to talk a bit oh so and so got the chop last night and that was it. You’d go up to the Mess and when you got to the Mess and had a drink that evening. You couldn’t worry.
SB: No. No. I understand. Well, it would drive you potty wouldn’t it if you —
CH: I mean quite honestly it was one of those things that you did see people going down in flames. You didn’t know whether it was the fellow who lived, who was living in the next tent or whether it was another squadron from one of the other aerodromes.
SB: Sure. Yes. Yeah.
CH: You were concerned.
SB: Of course.
CH: At the time you were thankful it wasn’t you.
SB: Well, yes. Yeah.
CH: I’m not joking. You know, you were thankful that you’d got through and you’d got home again.
SB: Yes. Yes. Quite. So, come to the end of your ops. Well, the end of Peter’s ops. Obviously yours as well as the crew at the end of September it seems.
CH: That’s right. Yeah.
SB: Peter then went off to a Communications Flight so I guess the whole crew broke up at that point. So what happened to you after that then, Cliff?
CH: Oh I was, I left the squadron, was sent back to Egypt for transit and they were sending all the aircrew then, other groups of aircrew that were in Alexandria on to the Far East and I was expecting to go to the Far East and pick up probably with another crew after a bit of rest. But they returned, they sent me back to Blighty.
SB: Oh.
CH: Yes. Yes.
SB: Was that something you were quite pleased about really weren’t you?
CH: It was. Absolutely. So I was home in time for Christmas 1944 and I had some leave and then hung about for quite a long while not knowing what was happening. We were sent to a brand new camp out in the [bondu] in Yorkshire and just doing nothing. Just hanging about and sometimes exercising but that was all.
SB: Right.
CH: And they came and asked gave us the opportunity of doing, not doing what we wanted but there was an opportunity to do some driving and they put me into the MT section.
SB: Oh right.
CH: I was taught to drive and from then on I was a driver for the Air Force until demob basically.
SB: Oh right. Right. When did you actually get demobbed?
CH: I was demobbed in 1947.
SB: Oh, crikey you had quite a long stint driving then by the sound of it.
CH: April ’47 I left. I did actually but part of that time was spent in Germany of course.
SB: Oh yes.
CH: That was an interesting thing. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Whereabouts were you in Germany?
CH: [Cuxhaven]
SB: Oh yes. Up on the coast. Yes.
CH: Hamburg.
SB: Yes.
CH: [Cuxhaven]
SB: Yeah. And what did you do after you came out the Air Force then?
CH: I went back to work for [unclear] wholesale furniture in Bristol.
SB: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
CH: The largest wholesale furniture warehouse in the west of England actually.
SB: Really? Goodness.
CH: But they no longer exist.
SB: No. Right.
CH: As with all things they folded up.
SB: Well, yes. A bit of a sad story all around with things like that isn’t it? Yeah.
CH: It is but [unclear] so yeah.
SB: So when you look back into your service career now how do you look back on that? What do you think when you look back on it, Cliff?
CH: Really when I look at being an air gunner I feel very fortunate that I did a tour of ops and was in no way injured other than mentally and I don’t suppose really I was injured mentally. It was the thrill that kept us going.
SB: Yeah.
CH: But had I been posted into this country I don’t know that I’d be here. I don’t know. One of those things. Having said that I met a customer of mine at the wholesale furniture warehouse who was a squadron leader rear gunner and he’d done a hundred and twenty ops.
SB: Good grief.
CH: Yeah. That’s what I said.
SB: Bloody hell.
CH: And they wouldn’t let him do any more and they sent him as an instructor but his name was Boalch. What squadron he was on or details on him I don’t know.
SB: How do you spell that name?
CH: B O A L C H I think it was.
SB: B O A L C H. Goodness me. Let’s just have a quick look. See if I can see him in my idiot’s guide to people in the Air Force here.
CH: Right. He was a squadron leader.
SB: That’s a very unusual name so I’ll just have a quick look in this book here see if he gets a mention. B O A L C H. No. I can’t find anything quickly. But he was a squadron leader gunner. Goodness me.
CH: Yeah. He was a rear gunner on Lancasters.
SB: Right. Well I’ll have to see what I can find out about him.
CH: [unclear] A bit of useless information I can —
SB: No. None of its useless Cliff I can assure you. You know, the whole thing I’m trying to do with the book is not just a case of saying this is what the Wellington did and these are the squadrons that had it and these are the ops they did. Yes, I’ve got to write the background to all that obviously but the most important part by far is the personal accounts like your own.
CH: Yeah.
SB: So as I think I mentioned on the phone the other day I was really glad that Peter put me in touch with you because I’ve got a lot of accounts from pilots and a lot from wireless operators and navigators but you’re actually the first Wimpy air gunner —
CH: Really?
SB: That I’ve been able to speak to. Yeah. And I’ve, when I set out to write this I mean I’ve been having chats like this with good gentlemen like yourself for about thirty odd years.
CH: Have you by Jove.
SB: Oh yes, and when I set out to write about the Wellington I thought well let’s see what I’ve already got and I had about six or eight recorded conversations with Wellington chaps as a basis which I thought was quite good. So in February I put of this year I put an appeal out in various forms on the internet really to say you know has anybody out there who flew in, maintained, whatever Wellingtons in any guise and in a fortnight I had about twenty replies which was really encouraging.
CH: It is. Yeah.
SB: And I’m up to about forty, forty five now.
CH: Right.
SB: But as I say you’re the first air gunner which is great. The, the other part, aspect that I’ve not found anybody was Coastal Command which quite surprised me because there were a lot of coastal Wimpy squadrons as I’m sure you know. But actually one has recently surfaced. I’m going to see him in Bath this Thursday so that would be rather good.
CH: Well, that would be good. Yes.
SB: Yeah.
CH: Right. Coastal Command.
SB: Yes. A Coastal Command pilot. Yeah.
CH: Lovely.
SB: He was on 612 Squadron at Chivenor and 179 at Limavady in Northern Ireland. Had quite a lengthy career. Worked out pretty good.
CH: Yeah.
SB: Anything else that you can think of at all Cliff that —
CH: Nothing really. I was trying to think. I was kept occupied in the turret and doing things you know. The navigator would often have [unclear] and you know it would take using the rear turret would focus on it and give him the location.
SB: Oh, right. Oh right, yes to get his drift and what have you.
CH: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yours were four gun turrets I assume were they?
CH: Yes, they were.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CH: Yeah. Yeah. I had an argument with, well not an argument but a disagreement. I went up to Hendon and saw the turrets and it was only a twin turret which mine had four. He said, ‘No, the Wellington never had four.’ Well, it happened mine did [laughs] you know.
SB: Well, yes. Yeah. Right.
CH: A four gun turret. Two guns in the front and four at the rear.
SB: Yes.
CH: But they were only Browning 303s you know.
SB: Yes. Yes. Quite.
CH: We needed something a bit more powerful really to put up any real fight.
SB: Well, yes. That’s right. I mean, they put .5s in some of the Lancs didn’t they later on?
CH: I don’t know.
SB: Yes, they did. Yes.
CH: Oh, did they?
SB: I think it was, if I remember rightly I think it was the Canadian built Lancs that had .5s for some strange reason but obviously a lot more useful in many ways than a 303 but there we go.
CH: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Well, Cliff it’s been lovely to talk to you. Many thanks indeed for your time. What I’d like to do because I hope you don’t mind I’ve been recording this. It saves me writing everything down. So I’ll listen. Listen back to it in slow time and I’d like if I may to come back to you by phone some time. I’ll probably get some more questions and pick your brain a bit more but I’d like to keep in touch with you anyway to let you know how the book is progressing.
CH: Excellent. Yes. By all means.
SB: It’s, it’s actually coming out in June next year.
CH: Right.
SB: So I’ve, my contract says I have to finish writing it by the end of February so it’s going to be quite big so [laughs]
CH: I see.
SB: So I’m ploughing on with it now. All I have is a phone number for you Cliff. Could I possibly have your address please?
CH: Certainly.
SB: Right. Fire away.
[Redacted]
SB: Oh, ok. Ok. Well, that’s, that’s great Cliff. As I say I’d like to keep in touch with you and I really appreciate your time.
CH: Only too pleased, Steve.
SB: Thanks a lot and I’ll talk to you again.
CH: If I think of anything I’ll write it down and remember to tell you the next time you ring.
SB: Oh, please do. That’s great. Many thanks Cliff. Talk to you again.
CH: Thank you.
SB: Bye for now.
CH: Bye.
SB: Ok. Well, I’m sure you can.
CH: Well, I will try anyway.
SB: I don’t know how much Peter told you, Cliff. I’m ex-Air Force myself but somewhat later. I’ve done a few books up until now on wartime experiences and so on.
CH: Yes.
SB: And it just occurred to me, happily my publisher agreed that it was about time somebody did a decent book on the Wimpy.
CH: Right. Well, there has been some printing on the Wimpy as you know.
SB: Oh, I do know indeed. Yes. Sure.
CH: “Bombers —" with sand, “Over Sand and Snow.”
SB: Oh right. Yes.
CH: Which was 205 Group records really. He’s more or less made his way through the whole lot.
SB: Right. Yes. I’m familiar with that and there are some very good Wellington books on particular aspects as you say such as 205 Group.
CH: Yes.
SB: And on the, the early Bomber Command efforts and so on but what I’m, what I’m trying to cover is everything. So as you know I did a lot of coastal work. A lot of work out in the Far East. Transports even. So I’m trying to cover all the aspects.
CH: Right.
SB: And so hence searching around for chaps like yourself to chat, to chat to about their experiences and so we go on. So when I, when I visited Peter he, he took me through the tour that you and he did.
CH: Yes.
SB: Now, sorry I’m just really looking as I mentioned on the phone yesterday, just really looking for sort of your aspects of it. I mean, there, there were two or three things I picked out from his log which I’m sure must have given you a little bit of excitement. A few encounters with Junkers 88s and so on.
CH: Yeah.
SB: So, well could we just start at the beginning a little bit first, Cliff. When did you actually join up?
CH: I actually volunteered in 1942.
SB: Right.
CH: At seventeen and a quarter.
SB: Oh, ok.
CH: And they, they put, sent me to a deferred service ATC squadron.
SB: Oh really? Oh.
CH: So I had, I didn’t actually, I wasn’t called up. I was [pause] I went to what they called 2042 Squadron here in Bristol.
SB: Oh yes.
CH: And I had to attend three nights a week doing aircraft rec and Morse Code and that sort of thing.
SB: Oh right.
CH: That lasted more or less about [pause] I suppose it was nearly a twelve month.
SB: Right. Ok.
CH: And then I was actually called up on August Bank Holiday Monday which was August the 3rd or 4th I think it was 1943.
SB: Right. Right. So then where did you do your wireless training? Would that have been Yatesbury?
CH: No. I didn’t do wireless training at all.
SB: Oh, you didn’t. Right. So you went straight to gunnery then after your basic training did you?
CH: Straight to gunnery. Yeah.
SB: And where did you do that?
CH: We did that, I did that at Dalcross in Scotland.
SB: Oh, yes. Yes.
CH: I started off at, went through to London to Lord’s Cricket Ground —
SB: Yeah.
CH: The August Monday.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And received the King’s Shilling.
SB: Right.
CH: And then we were housed in a block of flats in London. Exactly where I can’t think at the moment.
SB: Sure.
CH: But and then we were taken up to our ITW at Bridlington.
SB: Ah.
CH: I had a month at Bridlington.
SB: Right.
CH: From there we went, from that OTU we went across to Bridgnorth.
SB: Oh yes.
CH: Bridgnorth was our Elementary Air Gunnery School.
SB: Right.
CH: And then from there we went to number 2 ATS which was at Dalcross in Scotland.
SB: Right. So that would have been in Ansons I’m guessing.
CH: Yes. It was in Ansons. Yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CH: There in the October. Early October through into November.
SB: Right.
CH: And yes I had my first flight in an Anson.
SB: Oh, did you? Right.
CH: I’d never flown before and —
SB: Oh right.
CH: But yes, it was quite an experience. There were three air gunners and a flight sergeant instructor.
SB: Right.
CH: And the pilot.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And we took off and got over [pause] over the sea and an aircraft came along with a drogue, flying the drogue and number 1 gunner was told to get up in the turret. ‘Sorry sergeant, I can’t do it. I don’t feel well.’
SB: Oh.
CH: He was taken ill. The flight instructor told number 2 to do it and the same thing happened.
SB: Really.
CH: With that the instructor was taken ill and the pilot said, ‘Are you alright?’ And fortunately, I was and I, he said, ‘Well, get up in the turret and fire the rounds off and we’ll have a wander around.’ [laughs] And he was very generous and he took me, he flew over Inverness and he said, you know as I’d never flown before he was quite helpful and showed all sorts of things that he could do.
SB: Oh right.
CH: The other three were very painful in the back suffering the agonies of air sickness.
SB: Oh golly. Really? Was it a particularly rough day in?
CH: Not really. No. I thought, I don’t know, I mean it didn’t seem rough to me. I was thoroughly enjoying it.
SB: Made of sterner stuff.
CH: Maybe [laughs] yeah. Well, then yeah, so that’s did quite a few trips obviously in the Anson. All sorts of firing with photographic and some rounds as well. So it —
SB: Right.
CH: Finished, I finished that the 21st of November ’43.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And then we were I was sent home on indefinite leave and I’d only been home three days and they recalled me.
SB: Oh.
CH: We were then on the boat and out to the Middle East.
SB: Right.
CH: So that —
SB: So, that was at the 76 OTU, was it?
CH: Yes, it was at 76 OTU.
SB: Right.
CH: It was quite a timed decking there really because we landed in Alexandria. We were in Alexandria what, about a fortnight and then we went through to Jerusalem. We were in Jerusalem for about six weeks. We finished up at 76 OTU.
SB: Right. Right.
CH: And then of course I should think Peter told you the marriage market.
SB: Yes [laughs]
CH: Being that.
SB: Yeah.
CH: I must admit I was one of the lucky ones that Peter had got hold of me and he said he wanted me and that was wonderful and he he was an exceptionally good pilot.
SB: Right. Right.
CH: You know, without his ability and understanding and his facing all of us as a crew I don’t think we’d be here.
SB: Right. Right.
CH: He never queried anything.
SB: Really? No.
CH: He always trusted us all. We were there to do a job and we would do it the best of our ability.
SB: Yeah.
CH: So therefore he didn’t query what we were asked to do or —
SB: Right. Right. I see in your couple of months on OTU you did a couple of bullseyes.
CH: Yes.
SB: And I see from Peter’s log it talks about night cross country. Bullseye. Searchlight cooperation. How did that work then, Cliff? What was involved in searchlight cooperation?
CH: Quite truthfully I don’t really [pause] as far as that it was just that we were flying over some of these cross countries over some of the towns and the idea as far as I can gather was to allow them to catch you in the searchlights and then endeavour to get out of it.
SB: Right. Yes.
CH: That was sort of something. And then another night it would be avoid any contact with the searchlights. They would search for you but get out of the way if you can.
SB: Oh right. So that was Peter’s chance to practice his corkscrewing then I guess.
CH: Yes. Yes.
SB: Right.
CH: [laughs] I think.
SB: Ok. So then I suppose you move on to 104.
CH: We moved on to 104.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And that [pause] actually we got there in the beginning of May.
SB: Yeah.
CH: And we, we did our first operation on the 14th so —
SB: Right.
CH: A long time.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
CH: Happening but yes it, that was quite fun as a second gunner. I was in the astrodome.
SB: Oh right.
CH: We, fortunately they gave us two trips as second, as a second gunner but I had no guns. I was just in the astrodome.
SB: Oh right.
CH: But the first one I did was with a Flight Sergeant Smith who was an Australian.
SB: Yeah.
CH: We were doing ops in Northern Italy and we went over the Tagliamento rail bridge.
SB: Yeah.
CH: There’s one that Peter might have gone with someone else. I don’t know.
SB: Right.
CH: But when they dropped their bombs being an Australian crew they wanted to go and see if they’d hit anything which I I thought well the object when you’ve been and bombed is to get home just as fast as you can.
SB: Quite.
CH: The nose went down on the aircraft and they sort of skimmed. Well, I wouldn’t say skimmed but they went quite down, quite low. About a thousand feet and had a look to see if their —
SB: To see if they hit anything.
CH: Yes. I was glad to get home that night.
SB: Yeah. I bet you were [laughs] Yes.
CH: Especially, we were [unclear] anyway, we had a laugh with that since then.
SB: Well, yes. Sure. So when was your first trip with Peter and the rest of your regular crew?
CH: Right. I will tell you in just one second. It was actually on the 4th of June. 4th and 5th of June.
SB: Oh right.
CH: That was we went to [Terni.] A road crossing.
SB: Right.
CH: Centre of [Terni.] We were backing up the Army actually in fact, because this was where the Germans were situated and they were holding it and that’s why we —
SB: Right.
CH: Bombed it.
SB: Right.
CH: And then followed it again a couple of nights later with a further bombing there.
SB: Right. Right. Ok.
CH: Nothing major. You know, a little bit of flak and that sort of thing but nothing —
SB: Yes.
CH: Nothing really threatening.
SB: So, so your regular crew position you were in the rear turret were you?
CH: I was in the rear turret. Yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. I see, again I’m obviously looking at my copies of Peter’s logbook while we’re going through this. 2nd and 3rd of July is one that looks to stand out and he’s got Bucharest where you were flying. “We were attacked by a Junkers 88 at target plus —” I guess he means you, ‘From an unidentified single engine aircraft later.
CH: That’s right.
SB: Well, that sounds that it might have been a bit sporty. Do you recall that one?
CH: Yes I do. Well, it was. Yes. I was lucky I saw it before it saw us and we took the usual evasive action to get away from it and —
SB: So he didn’t get a shot in at you or anything.
CH: Pardon?
SB: He didn’t get a shot in at you.
CH: No, he didn’t and I didn’t shoot at it. With a JU88 they had cannon fire and they were, upset them and they were much more likely to get you.
SB: Well, yes. Yes.
CH: That was my principal anyway.
SB: Well, yes. Sure.
CH: And that’s how to be absolutely sure of striking the aircraft they had to be a lot closer than the JU88 was at that time.
SB: Yes. Well, I’m sure their cannon had quite a lot more range than your 303s.
CH: Much greater range.
SB: Yes.
CH: It would have been a waste of time. It would have, as I say I think it would have put them ready to to follow but if I’d been away underneath it might have. There probably was another one going further ahead that they could see instead you know.
SB: Yes. It’s interesting you should say that because one of the things I’ve read fairly recently is a report written by Farnborough about trials with a captured JU88 against a Wellington and various other aircraft and it talks about, you know the usual coming up behind and so on and the rear gunner giving the pilot, ‘Corkscrew port.’ ‘Corkscrew starboard.’ Whatever. But the report says that that the JU88 couldn’t really follow a Wimpy if it corkscrewed. It could follow Halifaxes and Lancs they tried it against but they couldn’t follow a Wimpy and I found that quite surprising.
CH: The only thing I can say is when I told Peter to dive port the G stress in the turret was such that I couldn’t move. And then, I don’t know how steeply he was diving we lost I mean it just I felt he was handling a fighter plane the way he was. That’s the feeling I got then.
SB: Yes.
CH: He was holding me tight on my seat and I couldn’t actually rotate the turret which is so stupid I know but it was happening. Peter didn’t do things by halves. He made sure that we were, that we got out of the way very very quickly.
SB: Yes. Yeah. Sure. Sure. The next one I’ve got here. July 6th 7th attacking aerodromes in Austria and you’ve got some flak damage that night it seems.
CH: That was [pause] that was an unpleasant one. The Yanks had gone out during the day or a day before and had been attacked by fighters from, in Austria and they sent the Wimpies out to bomb the airfield. Well, it was quite a long trip as you can gather with six five hundreds on board. I don’t know that we did a tremendous amount of damage looking at it now. But when we were there there was quite a lot of flak over the cracks.
SB: Yes.
CH: We stopped the fighters from getting up.
SB: Yes.
CH: When we arrived and managed to bomb them out of existence I don’t know.
SB: Right. Right. Yeah.
CH: Quite the experience.
SB: Yes. I would imagine it was. Well, let’s see. What else have we got? I mean please do leap in. I’m picking out ones at random really but I see you’ve got another occasion when going into August. August 12th 13th.
CH: Yeah.
SB: Hajdύbӧszӧrmény if that’s how you pronounce it. Aerodrome in Hungary. And again attacked by an unknown twin engine aircraft.
CH: That’s right. Yes. Hajdύbӧszӧrmény.
SB: I’m glad you can say that.
CH: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean —
SB: Oh no. No. Don’t be.
CH: To be honest I’m just reading my logbook myself.
SB: Right.
CH: Mind you, we had a four thousand pounder on that one.
SB: Yes.
CH: A horrible thing actually because you don’t have any bomb doors on with a four thousand pounder. Not with a Wellington.
SB: Right.
CH: It thunders away and you just have the bomb underneath. It was surprising when the bomb was released you feel the lift of the aircraft you know.
SB: Oh gosh. I imagine so. Yes.
CH: It’s quite an experience. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CH: We did alright there as far as I can recall.
SB: Right. Right.
CH: It was, we did have quite a fair bit of flak but no, no real problems.
SB: Right. I mean are there any, any trips that particularly stick in your memory? Apart from the ones we’ve already mentioned.
CH: Yeah. I’m just trying to think which one it was but there was one which I think it [pause] I know it was [pause] give me a second.
SB: Yes, of course. Yes.
CH: I’ll see if I can find it.
[pause]
CH: The one that really stands out in my mind was we were bombing a [pause] one of the oil refineries, the marshalling yards. I think it was Miskolc in Hungary again.
SB: Right.
CH: We did have some trouble going in. An unidentified fighter or some other aircraft was close to us and couldn’t be identified.
SB: Oh, that’s ok on this. Was it the 20/21st September I think might be the one you’re talking about.
CH: It would be twenty [pause] yeah. Hegyeshalom. That one.
SB: Yeah.
CH: When we went in we dropped our bombs and we had been taking evasive action on the way in and at the last minute the bomb aimer saw the marshalling yards ahead and he said, ‘Can we go straight?’ And that’s, Peter immediately said yes and I kept my eyes skimmed and the wireless op went up in the astrodome for the same reason, to make sure that everything was ok. And we went in and we, we were the first to sort of drop our bombs there and they went right across the goods yard blowing up quite a few trucks there and my memory is of getting quickly away from there as fast as we could and we were over a hundred miles away and I could still see the fires burning in the marshalling yards.
SB: Good grief.
CH: It was you know quite a successful evening really.
SB: Gosh. Yeah.
CH: And that’s my memory of that event.
SB: Right. Yeah. Yes, I’ve actually found some while you were just talking about that one Peter provided me with some written notes he’s got in addition to his logbook for each of those ops.
CH: Oh yeah.
SB: And he, I don’t know if you’ve seen that from him at all have you?
CH: I’ve seen his logbook. Yes.
SB: Yeah, but I mean he’s got some longer written notes about each op.
CH: He does. He did. He was excellent and he always wrote up almost like a diary.
SB: Yes. I mean for that particular one he said it was a five hour twenty five op. “A dicey one again. All the usual fun and games and coloured lights. One shot down very near me over Zagreb. Another at [unclear]” if that’s the pronunciation, “And two more at the top turning points. I lost four on the way in.”
CH: Yes.
SB: Oh, two more on the way in. Goodness me.
CH: Yeah. Two more.
SB: ”Attacked by a 109 but Eddie saw it in time. Did a steep diving turn to the target before the target indicators went down. Bombed and achieved perfect direct hits confirmed by a clear photograph from three thousand feet. Five and a half thousand feet being the agreed height. Shook off the fighter and went down to ground level for the return leg.”
CH: That’s right. Yeah.
SB: Well, yeah. That. Golly, that was a pretty severe night for the, for loss wasn’t it? Six on the way in.
CH: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. I mean obviously as we know lots of guys were lost. Lots of chaps were lost. I mean what was the, what indication did you have when you got back? I mean were you aware that it had perhaps been a rough one for the squadron or was it just, you know people were missing from breakfast the next morning? I mean how did that sort of work out for you?
CH: Well, we unfortunately you tended to, to talk a bit oh so and so got the chop last night and that was it. You’d go up to the Mess and when you got to the Mess and had a drink that evening. You couldn’t worry.
SB: No. No. I understand. Well, it would drive you potty wouldn’t it if you —
CH: I mean quite honestly it was one of those things that you did see people going down in flames. You didn’t know whether it was the fellow who lived, who was living in the next tent or whether it was another squadron from one of the other aerodromes.
SB: Sure. Yes. Yeah.
CH: You were concerned.
SB: Of course.
CH: At the time you were thankful it wasn’t you.
SB: Well, yes. Yeah.
CH: I’m not joking. You know, you were thankful that you’d got through and you’d got home again.
SB: Yes. Yes. Quite. So, come to the end of your ops. Well, the end of Peter’s ops. Obviously yours as well as the crew at the end of September it seems.
CH: That’s right. Yeah.
SB: Peter then went off to a Communications Flight so I guess the whole crew broke up at that point. So what happened to you after that then, Cliff?
CH: Oh I was, I left the squadron, was sent back to Egypt for transit and they were sending all the aircrew then, other groups of aircrew that were in Alexandria on to the Far East and I was expecting to go to the Far East and pick up probably with another crew after a bit of rest. But they returned, they sent me back to Blighty.
SB: Oh.
CH: Yes. Yes.
SB: Was that something you were quite pleased about really weren’t you?
CH: It was. Absolutely. So I was home in time for Christmas 1944 and I had some leave and then hung about for quite a long while not knowing what was happening. We were sent to a brand new camp out in the [bondu] in Yorkshire and just doing nothing. Just hanging about and sometimes exercising but that was all.
SB: Right.
CH: And they came and asked gave us the opportunity of doing, not doing what we wanted but there was an opportunity to do some driving and they put me into the MT section.
SB: Oh right.
CH: I was taught to drive and from then on I was a driver for the Air Force until demob basically.
SB: Oh right. Right. When did you actually get demobbed?
CH: I was demobbed in 1947.
SB: Oh, crikey you had quite a long stint driving then by the sound of it.
CH: April ’47 I left. I did actually but part of that time was spent in Germany of course.
SB: Oh yes.
CH: That was an interesting thing. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Whereabouts were you in Germany?
CH: [Cuxhaven]
SB: Oh yes. Up on the coast. Yes.
CH: Hamburg.
SB: Yes.
CH: [Cuxhaven]
SB: Yeah. And what did you do after you came out the Air Force then?
CH: I went back to work for [unclear] wholesale furniture in Bristol.
SB: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
CH: The largest wholesale furniture warehouse in the west of England actually.
SB: Really? Goodness.
CH: But they no longer exist.
SB: No. Right.
CH: As with all things they folded up.
SB: Well, yes. A bit of a sad story all around with things like that isn’t it? Yeah.
CH: It is but [unclear] so yeah.
SB: So when you look back into your service career now how do you look back on that? What do you think when you look back on it, Cliff?
CH: Really when I look at being an air gunner I feel very fortunate that I did a tour of ops and was in no way injured other than mentally and I don’t suppose really I was injured mentally. It was the thrill that kept us going.
SB: Yeah.
CH: But had I been posted into this country I don’t know that I’d be here. I don’t know. One of those things. Having said that I met a customer of mine at the wholesale furniture warehouse who was a squadron leader rear gunner and he’d done a hundred and twenty ops.
SB: Good grief.
CH: Yeah. That’s what I said.
SB: Bloody hell.
CH: And they wouldn’t let him do any more and they sent him as an instructor but his name was Boalch. What squadron he was on or details on him I don’t know.
SB: How do you spell that name?
CH: B O A L C H I think it was.
SB: B O A L C H. Goodness me. Let’s just have a quick look. See if I can see him in my idiot’s guide to people in the Air Force here.
CH: Right. He was a squadron leader.
SB: That’s a very unusual name so I’ll just have a quick look in this book here see if he gets a mention. B O A L C H. No. I can’t find anything quickly. But he was a squadron leader gunner. Goodness me.
CH: Yeah. He was a rear gunner on Lancasters.
SB: Right. Well I’ll have to see what I can find out about him.
CH: [unclear] A bit of useless information I can —
SB: No. None of its useless Cliff I can assure you. You know, the whole thing I’m trying to do with the book is not just a case of saying this is what the Wellington did and these are the squadrons that had it and these are the ops they did. Yes, I’ve got to write the background to all that obviously but the most important part by far is the personal accounts like your own.
CH: Yeah.
SB: So as I think I mentioned on the phone the other day I was really glad that Peter put me in touch with you because I’ve got a lot of accounts from pilots and a lot from wireless operators and navigators but you’re actually the first Wimpy air gunner —
CH: Really?
SB: That I’ve been able to speak to. Yeah. And I’ve, when I set out to write this I mean I’ve been having chats like this with good gentlemen like yourself for about thirty odd years.
CH: Have you by Jove.
SB: Oh yes, and when I set out to write about the Wellington I thought well let’s see what I’ve already got and I had about six or eight recorded conversations with Wellington chaps as a basis which I thought was quite good. So in February I put of this year I put an appeal out in various forms on the internet really to say you know has anybody out there who flew in, maintained, whatever Wellingtons in any guise and in a fortnight I had about twenty replies which was really encouraging.
CH: It is. Yeah.
SB: And I’m up to about forty, forty five now.
CH: Right.
SB: But as I say you’re the first air gunner which is great. The, the other part, aspect that I’ve not found anybody was Coastal Command which quite surprised me because there were a lot of coastal Wimpy squadrons as I’m sure you know. But actually one has recently surfaced. I’m going to see him in Bath this Thursday so that would be rather good.
CH: Well, that would be good. Yes.
SB: Yeah.
CH: Right. Coastal Command.
SB: Yes. A Coastal Command pilot. Yeah.
CH: Lovely.
SB: He was on 612 Squadron at Chivenor and 179 at Limavady in Northern Ireland. Had quite a lengthy career. Worked out pretty good.
CH: Yeah.
SB: Anything else that you can think of at all Cliff that —
CH: Nothing really. I was trying to think. I was kept occupied in the turret and doing things you know. The navigator would often have [unclear] and you know it would take using the rear turret would focus on it and give him the location.
SB: Oh, right. Oh right, yes to get his drift and what have you.
CH: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yours were four gun turrets I assume were they?
CH: Yes, they were.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
CH: Yeah. Yeah. I had an argument with, well not an argument but a disagreement. I went up to Hendon and saw the turrets and it was only a twin turret which mine had four. He said, ‘No, the Wellington never had four.’ Well, it happened mine did [laughs] you know.
SB: Well, yes. Yeah. Right.
CH: A four gun turret. Two guns in the front and four at the rear.
SB: Yes.
CH: But they were only Browning 303s you know.
SB: Yes. Yes. Quite.
CH: We needed something a bit more powerful really to put up any real fight.
SB: Well, yes. That’s right. I mean, they put .5s in some of the Lancs didn’t they later on?
CH: I don’t know.
SB: Yes, they did. Yes.
CH: Oh, did they?
SB: I think it was, if I remember rightly I think it was the Canadian built Lancs that had .5s for some strange reason but obviously a lot more useful in many ways than a 303 but there we go.
CH: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Well, Cliff it’s been lovely to talk to you. Many thanks indeed for your time. What I’d like to do because I hope you don’t mind I’ve been recording this. It saves me writing everything down. So I’ll listen. Listen back to it in slow time and I’d like if I may to come back to you by phone some time. I’ll probably get some more questions and pick your brain a bit more but I’d like to keep in touch with you anyway to let you know how the book is progressing.
CH: Excellent. Yes. By all means.
SB: It’s, it’s actually coming out in June next year.
CH: Right.
SB: So I’ve, my contract says I have to finish writing it by the end of February so it’s going to be quite big so [laughs]
CH: I see.
SB: So I’m ploughing on with it now. All I have is a phone number for you Cliff. Could I possibly have your address please?
CH: Certainly.
SB: Right. Fire away.
[Redacted]
SB: Oh, ok. Ok. Well, that’s, that’s great Cliff. As I say I’d like to keep in touch with you and I really appreciate your time.
CH: Only too pleased, Steve.
SB: Thanks a lot and I’ll talk to you again.
CH: If I think of anything I’ll write it down and remember to tell you the next time you ring.
SB: Oh, please do. That’s great. Many thanks Cliff. Talk to you again.
CH: Thank you.
SB: Bye for now.
CH: Bye.
Collection
Citation
S Bond and C Hobbs, “Conversation with Cliff Hobbs,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed May 13, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/document/49714.
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