5 25 536 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/447/7910/AIntropidoC170125.mp3 4d7923b6860d9fa6fa9bcdb9fda8d576 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/447/7910/PIntropidoC1701.jpg 064673f6b5c2f1b27d262972362b71cc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Intropido, Carluccio Carluccio Intropido Carlo Intropido C Intropido Description An account of the resource One oral history interview with Carluccio Intropido, who remembers his wartime experiences in Pavia. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-01-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Intropido, C Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document FA: Carlo vuole raccontarci la sua infanzia, gli avvenimenti. CI: Volentieri, volentieri, son cose che mi sono capitate nella mia vita per cui non c’è niente da nascondere. Sono Carlo Intropido, sono nato da una famiglia contadina in un periodo di pace appena dopo i tre giorni della merla, nel freddo inverno del 1931 ed è per quello che son sempre pien di freddo. Il destino ha voluto di restare orfano prima di padre poi di madre, all’età di 10 e 11 anni. Sono stato parcheggiato in un istituto, vero? Molto accogliente, lì si lavorava, si studiava, e si imparava un’arte: era il 1941, proprio all’inizio della seconda guerra mondiale. I tempi erano quello che erano, si soffriva anche un po’ di fame, il cibo mancava però il lavoro c’era, e io mi sono sempre dato da fare, ho imparato l’arte del fare il falegname. E la vita d’istituto era tranquilla: di giorno si studiava, si lavorava, alla domenica si andava a far la gitarella. Quel giorno avevamo deciso di fare quattro salti da Pavia a Certosa, la famosa Certosa di Pavia, un gruppetto, una ventina di ragazzi, quasi tutti coetanei, avevamo su la nostra bella divisa, pantaloncini corti e maglione azzurro. Ci siamo incamminati, giunti all’inizio di via Brambilla, che è la strada che porta da Pavia a Milano, vero? Abbiamo notato quattro caccia americani, inglesi, ma oramai noi eravamo abituati perché tutti i giorni è la stessa cosa, tutti i giorni c’era una confusione di aerei, pochi o tanti, che sorvolavano Pavia e andavano a bombardare Milano, quindi per noi è una cosa quasi normale. Purtroppo, improvvisamente quello di testa, vero? Ha virato a sinistra, è sceso giù in picchiata, gli altri lo han seguito. Son passate proprio sopra di noi vero? E hanno sganciato le bombe, nel frattempo noi impauriti ci siamo scaraventati giù per la scarpata tra la strada e la ferrovia, proprio dove le bombe son cadute. Io personalmente ho visto le bombe a pochi metri dalla testa che scendevano e andavano a colpire la ferrovia, è stato un po’ di panico. Passati i primi, i primi quattro passaggi vero? Ci siamo quasi tutti immedesimati, abbiamo attraversato la strada, dall’altra parte della strada c’è il Navigliaccio, un corso d’acqua che da Milano arriva verso Pavia e va a finire nel Naviglio vero? Lì abbiamo traversato e non sappiamo come perché è, era un ponticello che attraversava il fiume, fiumicello a trasporto di un fosso, è una condotta d’acqua larga circa un metro e noi l’abbiamo attraversato tutti senza paura. Forse è la paura che c’ha c’ha dato il coraggio di fare questa azione. Ci siam ritrovati tutti insieme, dall’altra parte e abbiam deciso di proseguire la nostra, la nostra gitarella. Siamo andati oltre il, l’ospedale policlinico San Matteo che è lì vero? Siamo andati verso il campo della Madonnina dove c’era il campo sportivo di calcio, dove lo frequentavamo anche noi, tutti gli oratori di Pavia. Arrivata poi l’ora un po’ tarda, nel tornare il nostro assistente ha deciso di tornare sui nostri passi e vedere un po’ che cosa era successo. Siamo andati ancora sulla zona e con grande sorpresa abbiamo visto la scarpata dove noi eravamo precipitati per nasconderci era tempestata di spezzoni incendiari, ce n’era qualcuno ancora qualcuno ancora acceso proprio, tant’è vero che qualcuno l’abbiamo portato anche a casa, così tanto per ricordo. Fa niente se [unclear]? Abbiamo saputo, tornando a casa dopo, che un gruppo sempre del nostro istituto, ragazzi di età più avanzata della nostra hanno subito un mitragliamento, quasi al centro della città, nella zona dove c’era il consorzio agrario. Si vede che gli aerei in picchiata nello sganciare le bombe han fatto anche dei mitragliamenti, proprio i nostri amici han dovuto subire questa circostanza, nessuno si è fatto male, tutto è andato bene, per buona fortuna. Vedi adesso io ho perso la la memoria, fa niente beh la sosta dopo lo ricongiungi te, fa niente se faccio delle soste. FA: Sì, va benissimo. CI: Devo pensare, adesso dove sono arrivato io. FA: Allora prima della pausa ci stava dicendo del mitragliamento. CI: Nei giorni successivi, mentre stavamo in ricreazione in mezzo al cortile nel nostro istituto, in via Fratelli Cremona, abbiamo notato un nutrito stormo di aerei diretti verso Milano, era ormai un’abitudine, tutti i giorni passavano, quel giorno però capitò un caso strano: un aereo incominciò a fumare, proprio sopra il nostro cortile, ovviamente in alto dove si trovava. Questo aereo improvvisamente ha fatto una virata, si è girato e ha fatto ritorno da dove stava per arrivare, da dove stava arrivando. Improvvisamente il fuoco ha invaso l’aereo, oramai era quasi fuori dalla nostra vista, era sopra Tre Re circa diciamo, vero? Paesino appena fuori Pavia. Abbiam notato una cosa strana, mentre precipitava, dei paracaduti si allontanavano dall’aereo e scendevano, uno a destra e uno a sinistra, uno a destra e uno a sinistra. Abbiamo saputo dopo che questi paracadutisti sono stati protetti, raccolti dalla cittadinanza e poi accompagnati in Svizzera, hanno evitato di essere catturati dai tedeschi che occupavano in quel periodo l’Italia. Uno solo è stato catturato: combinazione è caduto in mezzo a un reticolato, si è ferito, quello è stato catturato. Qualche giorno dopo il nostro accompagnatore ha voluto portarci nella zona dove era caduto l’aereo, questo aereo era carico di bombe e prima di cadere a terra è scoppiato, son scoppiate tutte le bombe per cui ha invaso un’estensione enorme quindi c’erano sparsi oggetti frammenti. Abbiam notato un motore collocato su un gelso, chissà com’era finito sopra lì io non riesco a capirlo, vero? Comunque girando qualcuno di noi ha trovato degli oggetti interessanti, un mio amico ha trovato una cassettina metallica con dentro dei, dei prodotti sanitari, delle bende, dei cerotti, dell’alcool, e così via. Io personalmente ho trovato un cappellino militare, di quelli fatti in pelo in pelle col pelo, con l’aletta davanti, col copri orecchie che si poteva staccare e riattaccare al centro in alto, l’ho preso, me lo son nascosto e poi l’ho portato a casa. Questo cappellino ha fatto per me una storia perché quando sono andato a militare qualche anno dopo a 21 anni, la mia mansione era fare il motociclista e io tranquillamente toglievo il berrettino militare e mi mettevo su il mio bel berrettino di cuoio, di di pelo, era per me un po’ un hobby. [long pause] Non so più cosa dire dopo, perché non sono più fresco con la memoria, se mi metto lì a scrivere scrivo e via, ma così all’improvviso mi sfuggono le cose, vero? Militare, personalmente volevo ricordare, ah ecco, una, è acceso? Una cosa vorrei dire che mi è rimasta impressa, per me quei militari aeronautici inglesi o americani che erano, per me sono stati degli eroi, perché se sganciavano le bombe appena ha incominciato l’aereo a far fumo, purtroppo ci andava di mezzo mezza città e tutto il borgo Ticino, invece non hanno scoppiato le bombe ed è per quello che sono scoppiate prima di toccare terra l’aereo in picchiata, quindi per me sono stati degli eroi, forse l’han fatto di proposito, forse è stato nel panico, io non lo so, comunque sia hanno salvato mezza città con la loro azione eh così [long pause]. Ah ecco adesso qui incomincio l’altra, l’altra faccenda, non sono fresco oggi di di, casomai poi lo rifacciamo. Un’altra cosa vorrei dire, tanto per mettere le cose in chiaro: Pavia come altre città, salvo l’intervento di piccoli casi, non è stata liberata dai partigiani come si vorrebbe far credere, Pavia è stata liberata dai pavesi, cittadini pavesi, che son rimasto nell’anonimato, perché erano gente preparati nell’arte della guerra in quanto c’erano, c’era un tenente pilota che era un mio caro amico, vero? Pilota di caccia, che era, non era nei partigiani ma era uno sbandato lì nascosto in collegio dove aveva anche una radio trasmittente e trasmetteva con la RAF e mettendo in contatto i partigiani dell’Oltrepò pavese e del di altre zone collinarie e dei partigiani in giro per l’Alt’Italia. Questo qui, insieme a due cappellani militari, che conoscevo anche io perché erano nascosti nel nostro istituto, con l’appoggio della, della curia vescovile, hanno iniziato ad occupare la prefettura con il buon accordo del prefetto che allora non si chiamava prefetto, si chiamava, come si chiamava? Beh comunque era il personaggio che rappresentava la nazione, l’Italia insomma, allora c’erano ancora i fascisti praticamente, c’era ancora la repubblica, la repubblica di Mussolini, la Repubblica di Salò vero? Insieme ad altre persone che io non conosco hanno iniziato a liberare prima la prefettura e dopo gradualmente hanno armato 10 o 12 ferrovieri i quali avevano il benestare da circolare, avevano il permesso in quanto in servizio per la ferrovia sotto il comando tedesco quindi loro erano liberi di circolare mentre gli altri, tutti gli altri cittadini non potevano circolare, c’era il coprifuoco alle sette di sera tutti a casa, non c’era più nessuno che si muoveva da casa. Loro potevano, quindi sono stati arruolati sempre in buon accordo, vero? E hanno poco a poco disarmato tutte le altre caserme, dalle più piccole alle più grandi, è rimasto poi alla fine il castello. Il castello era un po’, c’erano i prigionieri, i partigiani, era un po’ il comando dei tedeschi, e lì è stata dura, però questi nostri bravi liberatori di Pavia competenti del mestiere c’han saputo fare, son riusciti a convincere una batteria antiaerea che si trovava in periferia di Pavia, nei pressi del ponte dell’Impero, han fatto credere che il castello era occupato dai partigiani, vero? E li hanno invitati con dei cannoncini antiaerei a bombardare il castello, quindi a bombardare direttamente i loro colleghi tedeschi, c’è stato un po’ di parapiglia. Nello stesso tempo son riusciti anche a deviare una colonna militare tedesca che era in fuga da Vercelli verso Pavia dove erano diretti forse per fare anche un concentramento, a deviarli dicendo che Pavia era già tutta occupata, tedeschi non ce n’erano più quindi quel battaglione ha cambiato direzione, non si sa dove sia andato. [pause] Allora, qualche giorno dopo la liberazione di Pavia, sono arrivati i partigiani, io ricordo mi trovavo sul piazzale del Ponte Vecchio di Pavia, lì proprio di fronte alla alla pasticceria eeeh. FA: Pampanini. CI: Pampanini, proprio di fronte alla pasticceria Pampanini, gelateria Pampanini vero? Dove esiste ancora tutt’oggi, vero? E ho notato un gruppetto di persone un po’ mal vestite, un po’ malconce ma armate fino ai denti. Si son messi in fila, il comandante ha dato l’ordine e son partiti verso il corso Vittorio Emanuele, così si chiamava, adesso è corso Strada Nuova. E sono entrati in Pavia come conquistatori, purtroppo la città era già stata liberata, Pavia è stata liberata senza nessun incidente, senza nessun morto, neanche un colpo di fucile, neanche i partigiani han dovuto sparare un colpo. Ovviamente dopo han fatto qualche piccola vendetta, qualcuno c’è andato di mezzo ma cose da poco diciamo e così si pensa che Pavia sia stata liberata dai partigiani, non è vero! Poi cos’è che dovrei dire? Cos’è dopo? Ah niente finisce qui. FA: No una domanda Carlo, ha qualche ricordo dei, degli altri diciamo bombardamenti avvenuti sulla città, magari sulla zona del Borgo Ticino? CI: Sì! Allora posso raccontare che quasi tutte le notti suonava l’allarme, è acceso? Quasi tutte le notti suonava l’allarme e c’era da precipitarsi in cantina, noi avevamo una cantina nella parte vecchia dell’istituto, era una vecchia cantina tutta puntellata, e ci trovavamo lì, vero? Fin quando suonava il via libera. In quelle circostanze, son capitate delle volte che i muri tremavano, noi eravamo ragazzi io avevo 14 anni, vero? E è capitato anche si sapere il giorno dopo che nei bombardamenti che han fatto per distruggerei i ponti a Pavia, che hanno dovuto continuare per sei o sette turni. Perché nel primo turno han buttato giù il ponte della ferrovia completamente, nel secondo è caduta un’arcata del Ponte dell’Impero, mentre invece il Ponte Vecchio non è mai stato centrato perché gli aerei seguivano la direzione del fiume ma non riuscendo a colpirlo han deciso di cambiare manovra, l’han preso per il traverso per cui le bombe hanno colpito anche le case prima e dopo il ponte distruggendo anche il ponte ovviamente, l’han distrutto completamente, quello è stato l’ultimo. In un altro bombardamento, una bomba sfuggita alla alla dalla zona destinata, caduta in mezzo a un bosco dove proprio si trovava un gruppo di rifugiati, nascosti in una tomba, in un tombone, vero? Due bombe son cadute, una a destra e una a sinistra di questo tombone, li han schiacciati dentro tutti come delle sardine, è stato un disastro. Questo fosso di chiamava “Acuanegra” per cui è ricordato come la tragedia della tomba dell’acqua negra, in Borgo Ticino. FA: Carlo si ricorda che rumore faceva, che rumore faceva la sirena? CI: Bah, che rumore faceva? Come si fa a riprodurre una eh una sirena? Non avrei, non ho una, per dar indicazione che ricorda il suono della sirena, cioè non c’è niente che lo ricorda perché le sirene non ce ne sono più come suonavano allora, non le ho più sentite dopo, non ho più avuto l’occasione dopo le sirene che usavano per i bombardamenti, preavvisi per i bombardamenti, non l’ho più sentita. FA: Era, era diversa la sirena che segnalava l’arrivo dei bombardieri e quella che segnalava… CI: No no era sempre la stessa. FA: Sempre la stessa. CI: Suonavano suonavano, quando suonava l’allarme vero? Era il segnale che arrivavano i bombardieri, quindi c’era da fare il fuggi fuggi, poi quando c’era la la, il passato pericolo, la sirena suonava ancora e si capiva che si poteva ritornare in piena libertà. FA: E coi suoi, coi suoi compagni all’istituto cosa provavate, cosa, si ricorda qualcosa, cosa vi dicevate? CI: Eh eravamo giovani e quando si è giovani le decisioni le si prendono un po’alla leggera, senza paura, non è che ero un coraggio, era una cosa naturale, e poi in quel periodo c’era la paura della guerra. La guerra anche non l’abbiamo passata al fronte è sempre guerra, certe cose eh si sopportano tranquillamente senza pensieri, poi quando si è giovani, si è spensierati non si pensano a quelle cose lì. Si pensa a divertirsi, giocare e stare bene in particolar modo in quel periodo noi pensavamo sempre a mangiare qualcosa, eravamo sempre pien di fame, i nostri pasti quasi quasi sempre si concludevano in un piatto di patate o di castagne secche cotte nell’acqua. C’è qualcos’altro che mi vuoi chiedere? Adesso lo sentiamo casomai lo rifacciamo. FA: Eh prima della pausa Carlo, stavamo dicendo, si ricorda i nomi dei due cappellani militari che nominava prima? CI: No no, erano segreti purtroppo, non mi ricordo, adesso è passato tanto tempo e non mi ricordo comunque sono sicuro che i nomi non li sapevo, sapevo solo quello del nostro ex-Artigianello, il tenente pilota, si chiamava Mario Cecchetti, vero? Ma dei cappellani non, non ho nessun ricordo dei nomi. Mi ricordo che uno era molto affabile, veniva a giocare anche a pallone insieme a noi, e ci ha anche raccontato che appena, appena c’è stata la disfatta lui è stato catturato un po’ dai fascisti ed è stato costretto a seguire come cappellano militare i fascisti che andavano a fare i rastrellamenti sulle montagne dei partigiani, ha raccontato che questi ragazzi, tutti ragazzi di 14-15 anni inconsapevoli di quello che facevano, non sapevano neanche usare le armi, non sapevano tirare la spoletta delle bombe a mano, non sapevano sparare il fucile e lui ha fatto da maestro un po’ a questi ragazzi a malincuore però ha dovuto farlo, la situazione era quella, appena ovviamente ha potuto è scappato ed è venuto a nascondersi lì agli Artigianelli. L’altro invece era un po’ più scorbutico, un tipo un po’ strano, un po’ stravagante, vero? Non diceva mai niente. Io mi ricordo che andavo a dire messa nei periodi che la chiesa era libera, andava a dire la sua messa e basta, e poi stava sempre nascosto. E poi ovviamente abbiam saputo che, ma solo noi l’abbiam saputo, questa è una storia che io penso che a Pavia non la si sappia neanche. La so io perché di prima persona vero? Ho potuto constatare le cose insomma, mi son capitate vicine, ho potuto parlare con questa gente che erano lì insomma. FA: E vivevano con voi nell’istituto. CI: Vivevano con noi, vivevano con noi, si erano nascosti lì da noi. FA: E dove si nascondevano diciamo? CI: Eh si nascondevano in nell’ala vecchia dell’istituto dove c’era un po’ di guardaroba, c’era un po’ di, quasi quasi era una zona un po’ isolata e non frequentata né dai ragazzi ma neanche dai superiori diciamo, lì tenevamo per esempio un mulino nascosto dove si macinava il grano che i contadini ci regalavano per la nostra sopravvivenza, avevamo un mulino che si macinava, si macinavano anche le castagne secche per far la farina, poi ci si arrangiava. E loro vivevano, c’era un piano terra, un primo piano, vivevano lì insomma ecco. E poi erano quelle cose che noi ragazzi non è che ci tenavamo a, non era il caso di andare a indagare come vivevano, cosa facevano, però erano lì con noi, noi eravamo protetti. Voglio dire una cosa: ero, tempo dei tedeschi, dell’occupazione tedesca, di fronte a noi c’era le scuole Carducci. Piano terra frequentavano ancora le scuole i ragazzi, al piano di sopra c’erano i mongoli, i mongoli erano prigionieri tedeschi ma li usavano per fare le, le sbandate nell’Oltrepò pavese a dare la caccia ai partigiani assieme ai fascisti, questi questi ragazzi vero? Erano anche loro prigionieri, dovevano fare quello che loro gli ordinavano, mi ricordo che aprivamo le finestre delle nostre camerate e loro ci lanciavano delle caramelle, gliele fornivano i tedeschi ovviamente come come pasto, in aggiunta al pasto erano delle bustine con dentro delle caramelle gommose, dieci o dodici caramelle con il cielo da una parte e dall’altra, trasparente delle delle come delle bustine diciamo e loro ce le lanciavano dentro le nostre finestre. Una volta c’è un altro ricordo, è la storia di Pippo. Pippo era un piccolo aereo che tutte le sere immancabilmente sorvolava Pavia. Si poteva mettere l’orologio a posto, non sbagliava, non sbagliava di un minuto, vero? Appena vedeva una luce lui sganciava una bombetta, ne ha sganciata una anche invia Fratelli Cremona proprio sotto le nostre camerate. Ha fatto un cratere di un metro circa di diametro con una profondità di 15, 20 centimetri, lì c’era un ciottolato di di sassi, vero? Una cosa da poco, però sganciava queste bombette, forse erano bombette piccole, era un preavviso, noi non abbiamo mai saputo se era un servizio dei tedeschi o se era contro i tedeschi, non lo abbiamo mai saputo, veniva a controllare le luci, quando vedeva una luce sganciava la sua bombetta, veniva tutti i giorni, tutti i giorni, tutti i giorni. Lo chiamavamo Pippo [laughs]. FA: Tutte, tutte le sere. CI: Tutte le sere, tutte le sere. Aveva l’orario fisso [unclear]: arriva Pippo. Tac non sbagliava di un minuto. FA: Quindi stavate al buio? CI: Ah si eh sicuramente, e poi era l’orario del coprifuoco, nessuno si muoveva non c’era in giro nessuno e anche anche le luci, anche perché c’erano i sorvoli, i sorvoli degli anglo americani che andavano a bombardare Pavia, in quel periodo, quindi si cercava di tenere la città nascosta, di tenere le luci, senza luci, anche i lampioni della città erano spenti. FA: Tutto spento. CI: Malgrado tutto Pavia non è stata una città di bombardamenti, non so il perché, l’han bombardata esclusivamente per i ponti proprio alla fine alla fin fine, quando oramai la guerra per noi era quasi finita, gli americani stavano arrivando, erano già arrivati su verso il centro Italia per cui i tedeschi erano quasi in fuga e i ponti li han buttati giù per bloccare la fuga dei tedeschi praticamente. Ma oramai eravamo alla fine, alla fine del conflitto. FA: Va bene, d’accordo, allora se non ha altro da aggiungere, la ringraziamo per l’intervista. CI: Ma di quelle ce ne son tante, però cos’è che potrei dire, ricordi, ricordi. [pause] Ah volevo dire che di questi, di questi signori che hanno partecipato alla liberazione Pavia, son rimasti tutti nell’anonimato. Io sfido chiunque a dirmi un nome di chi ha liberato Pavia nessuno lo sa, perché eran tutti, eran tutti gente o militari, vero? O gente del clero che han preferito rimanere fuori dalla storia quindi si son resi tutti anonimi, non, nessuno lo sa chi erano, nessuno lo sa. FA: D’accordo. CI: Come come qualcuno è arrivato, io ho letto nel giornale, anche recente vero? Di qualcuno quando si parla della liberazione di Pavia, ho sentito qualcuno scrivere addirittura che i partigiani sono entrati con l’aiuto di un gruppo di finanzieri, forse si son sbagliati con ferrovieri perché le cose dette e ridette vengono magari anche confuse, io son sicuro che erano ferrovieri e non finanzieri ma però se ne dicono tante quindi accettiamo anche questa per buona. Un’altra storia ti posso raccontare, la storia di Mussolini, una mia storia anche quella, te la racconto? Allora mi trovavo assieme ad altri due amici a Rovescala. Allora si usava andare fuori città a mangiare pane e salame, oramai la guerra era finita da un po’ di anni, con questi miei amici siamo andati a mangiare pane e salame nell’osteria del Grison, in Rovescala, provincia di Pavia. Lì c’era un gruppetto che suonavano l’ocarina, sai cos’è l’ocarina? FA: No. CI: È una specie di flauto fatto in terracotta, ha un suono tutto particolare vero? Erano in quattro o cinque che suonavano l’ocarina, vero? E noi si mangiava e si parlava. Il discorso è caduto, non si sa come, sulla storia della fine di Mussolini e si diceva quello che ovviamente si sentiva in giro “L’han fermato a Dongo”, vero? Un gruppo di partigiani proprio dell’Oltrepò pavese hanno avuto l’incarico di andarlo a prendere, ed è vero che Mussolini l’han nascosto prima in una casa, poi in una seconda casa, lì sull’altura di Dongo e mentre parlavamo lì in osteria tranquillamente, stavamo discutendo di questa cosa, si avvicinò un signore di mezza età sulla quarantina, e ci dice: “Volete sapere la storia veramente com’è andata a finire? Ve la racconto io”. E noi siamo rimasti lì di stucco, vero? Ha incominciato fa “Io sono uno dei due che ha fatto la guardia a Mussolini nell’ultima notte. Allora Mussolini e la Petacci han chiesto, han chiesto alla, alla padrona di casa una coperta. Sono andati, la padrona di casa gli ha offerto la sua camera da letto, son andati a dormire e han cercato di chiudere la porta ma noi abbiamo avuto l’ordine di guardarli a vista, di tenerli, di controllarli a vista e ci abbiam detto “No no la porta rimane aperta”. Mussolini è stato così convincente con la sua abilità che ci ha convinto a tenerla chiusa, lui ha detto “Per la privacy, mia moglie…” e ci ha convinti tanto noi eravamo lì in una casetta isolata, vero? Abbiam lasciato chiuso e stavamo lì quasi quasi sonnecchiando a dir la verità. A un certo momento abbiam sentito un tonfo, abbiamo aperto la porta e lui non c’era più e c’era la finestra aperta. Ci siam precipitati fuori e l’abbiam visto che stava scendendo giù da una scarpata, ci abbiam dato l’ALT, due o tre volte, lui non ha risposto e ha continuato ad andare, abbiamo, uno di noi” e non ha detto né io, né l’altro, “Uno di noi” ha detto “Ha sparato un colpo di rivoltella non per colpirlo ma per fermarlo, purtroppo lui è caduto per terra, sono andati là e il colpo gli aveva preso proprio il collo, ovviamente c’è stato un subbuglio, anche gli altri partigiani che erano in zona sono arrivati lì, vero? E l’abbiamo portato su, era morto oramai, rantolava ancora ma oramai era era finito. L’abbiam portato su, abbiam fatto una fatica tremenda e dopo un po’ è arrivato un comandante partigiano, ci ha fatto giurare a tutti di non saper niente, ha portato via Mussolini, la Petacci e non sappiamo dove sono andati a finire. L’abbiam saputo dopo che li ha portati in una zona lì vicino e li ha fucilati. Ma non è vero, era già morto Mussolini, hanno ammazzato la Petacci, ma Mussolini era già morto. La rivoltella che ha ammazzato Mussolini, si trova parcheggiata a Casteggio, in una teca, ci si può informare e andare alla ricerca per vedere se è vero”. Questo è il racconto che ci ha fatto. Oh ovviamente poi è rimasto lì un po’ come per dire “Oh porco cane cosa ho fatto!?” ho detto una cosa che ero sotto giuramento e non devo, però non fa niente oramai non c’è più nessuno”. Perché questa storia ce l’ha raccontata eh tardivamente diciamo, non subito dopo, adesso non ricordo bene ma molto probabilmente tutti quelli che han partecipato forse non c’erano neanche più. E quindi ha detto “Mi raccomando ragazzi, dovete giurarmi che questa cosa non la raccontate a nessuno, e io ho rispettato il giuramento, non l’ho mai detto a nessuno. L’ho detto adesso ultimamente in questi ultimi anni perché oramai non c’è più nessuno di quelli, di quelli che hanno partecipato a quelle azioni lì non c’è nessuno, quindi non vado ad analizzare nessuno. Quindi lo posso raccontare: che sia vero, che sia non vero io la mano sul fuoco non ce la metto, però è quello che ho sentito raccontare. FA: D’accordo. CI: Dato che di storie sulla morte di Mussolini ne dicono tante, vero? Ma tante tante, quella vera non la si sa, nessuno la conosce, questa fa parte di una delle tante. FA: Va bene, va bene, la ringraziamo Carlo. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Carluccio Intropido Description An account of the resource Carluccio Intropido recalls his early life as an orphan studying in Pavia at the Artigianelli, a boarding school providing technical training. He recalls that children used to watch aircraft enroute to Milan, until Pavia was bombed, due to the strategical value of its bridges. He recalls being caught in a bombing attack during a field trip, narrowly escaping death, and describes an aircraft on Pavia being hit and the aircrew baling out. One was injured and captured, while others were spirited away to Switzerland by local people. Carluccio describes school children being taken to the crash site and recalls an engine stuck atop a mulberry tree and debris scattered all around. He remembers people salvaging items, among them a first aid kit and a leather aircrew cap, the latter being used when the informant was later enlisted as an army despatch rider. He praises the aircrew as heroes, for refraining from dropping bombs on Pavia when the aircraft was hit. He recalls the liberation of the city, mentioning Mario Cecchetti - an insurgent manning a clandestine radio station - and two military chaplains hidden inside the school. He stresses how it was liberated in a non-violent way, mainly through ruse and persuasion, and downplays the role of partisans. Carluccio describes how people taking shelter in a ditch (Tomba dell’acqua negra) were crushed by nearby explosions. He highlights a light-hearted approach to war, describing hunger was more feared than the bombing and recalls anecdotes of the ‘Mongols’ billeted at the school, troops captured by the Germans and deployed for anti-partisan operations. Carluccio recalls “Pippo” and describes its regular passages as being so accurate that people could check the clock against it. He describes its role as a black-out checker, in the context of curfew regulations, but he was not sure if it was an Allied or Axis aircraft. He describes a post-war encounter with a person who claimed to know an alternative version of Mussolini’s death; he was killed during an escape attempt followed by a staged execution the day after. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Filippo Andi Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:47:21 audio recording Language A language of the resource ita Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Italy Italy--Po River Valley Italy--Pavia Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-01-25 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AIntropidoC170125 PIntropidoC1701 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Francesca Campani Maureen Clarke Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive bombing childhood in wartime fear Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945) perception of bombing war Pippo Resistance shelter shot down strafing https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/446/7911/ABozziF170712.2.mp3 7231d73624122158e1222380cee96971 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bozzi, Francesco Francesco Bozzi F Bozzi Description An account of the resource One oral history interview with Francesco Bozzi who recollects his wartime experiences in Greece and in the Po River valley area. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Bozzi, F Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Francesco Bozzi Description An account of the resource Francesco Bozzi recalls his military training followed by service in Greece. He describes harsh living conditions while in Germany-occupied Crete after September 1943: hard labour; scarce food; punishment; brutalities; being wounded while digging a tunnel; bombings, and Allied attacks of Italian convoys packed with soldiers. He describes being hospitalised in Italy and mentions the disruption of transport, destroyed bridges, strafing, and aggressive behaviour of partisans. Francesco tells of a cache of arms discovered, by chance, after the war. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Filippo Andi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-12 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:29:20 audio recording Language A language of the resource ita Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Greece Greece--Crete Italy Italy--Po River Valley Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ABozziF170712 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending OH transcription Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maureen Clarke bombing forced labour Resistance strafing https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/81/7914/LGodfreyCR1281391v10001.pdf 2bb4feee369606f050f7e0e0563b6922 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Godfrey, Charles Randall Subject The topic of the resource World War (1939-1945) Description An account of the resource 64 items. The collection concerns Flight Lieutenant Charles Randall Godfrey DFC (b. 1921, 146099, Royal Air Force) and consists of his logbook and operational notes, items of memorabilia, association memberships, personnel documentation, medals and photographs. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron. He flew as a wireless operator in the crew of Squadron Leader Ian Willoughby Bazalgette VC. The collection has has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by David Charles Godfrey and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Godfrey, CR Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-18 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Charles Godfrey's observer's and air gunner's flying log book Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One booklet Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Log book and record book Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Great Britain. Royal Air Force Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LGodfreyCR1281391v10001 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Belgium Egypt France Libya Greece Germany Gibraltar Great Britain Netherlands Scotland Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea Belgium--Haine-Saint-Pierre Egypt--Alexandria Egypt--Cairo Egypt--Ismailia (Province) Egypt--Marsá Maṭrūḥ Egypt--Tall al-Ḍabʻah England--Berkshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Cumbria England--Devon England--Gloucestershire England--Hampshire England--Kent England--Leicestershire England--Lincolnshire England--Norfolk England--Northumberland England--Oxfordshire England--Rutland England--Shropshire England--Suffolk England--Wiltshire England--Worcestershire England--Yorkshire France--Angers France--Caen France--Trossy St. Maximin France--Mantes-la-Jolie France--Nucourt France--Rennes Germany--Wiesbaden Germany--Berchtesgaden Germany--Bottrop Germany--Chemnitz Germany--Dorsten Germany--Dortmund Germany--Duisburg Germany--Düren (Cologne) Germany--Düsseldorf Germany--Essen Germany--Gelsenkirchen Germany--Hamburg Germany--Hannover Germany--Karlsruhe Germany--Kiel Germany--Kleve (North Rhine-Westphalia) Germany--Ludwigshafen am Rhein Germany--Mainz (Rhineland-Palatinate) Germany--Merseburg Germany--Mönchengladbach Germany--Munich Germany--Nuremberg Germany--Osnabrück Germany--Osterfeld Germany--Stuttgart Germany--Troisdorf Germany--Wanne-Eickel Germany--Wesel (North Rhine-Westphalia) Germany--Wesseling Greece--Ērakleion Greece--Piraeus Libya--Darnah Libya--Tobruk Netherlands--Hasselt Netherlands--Rotterdam Scotland--Moray Germany--Münster in Westfalen England--Cornwall (County) North Africa Libya--Banghāzī Germany--Ruhr (Region) Libya--Gazala Germany--Hemmingstedt France--Noordpeene Egypt--Ras el Shaqiq Egypt--Fukah Libya--Timimi Egypt--El Dabaa Egypt--Saniyat Turbiyah Netherlands--Hague Egypt--Quotaifiyah France--Senantes Germany--Nuremberg France--Revigny-sur-Ornain Germany--Worms France--Chapelle Notre Dame Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1942-03-23 1942-06-10 1942-06-11 1942-06-12 1942-06-13 1942-06-14 1942-06-15 1942-06-16 1942-06-17 1942-06-18 1942-06-19 1942-06-20 1942-06-22 1942-06-23 1942-06-24 1942-06-25 1942-06-26 1942-06-28 1942-06-29 1942-07-02 1942-07-03 1942-07-05 1942-07-08 1942-07-09 1942-07-10 1942-07-12 1942-07-13 1942-07-15 1942-07-16 1942-07-17 1942-07-19 1942-07-20 1942-07-25 1942-07-26 1942-07-28 1942-07-29 1942-07-31 1942-08-01 1942-08-06 1942-08-07 1942-08-08 1942-08-09 1942-08-14 1942-08-15 1942-08-16 1942-08-17 1942-08-18 1942-08-19 1942-08-21 1942-08-22 1942-08-23 1942-08-24 1942-08-25 1942-08-26 1942-08-27 1942-08-28 1942-08-29 1942-08-30 1942-08-31 1942-09-01 1942-09-03 1942-09-05 1942-09-06 1942-09-08 1942-09-09 1944-05-06 1944-05-08 1944-05-12 1944-05-13 1944-05-27 1944-05-28 1944-05-29 1944-06-05 1944-06-07 1944-06-08 1944-06-09 1944-06-12 1944-06-13 1944-06-15 1944-06-16 1944-06-23 1944-06-24 1944-07-07 1944-07-09 1944-07-10 1944-07-14 1944-07-15 1944-07-16 1944-07-18 1944-07-19 1944-07-20 1944-07-23 1944-07-24 1944-07-25 1944-07-26 1944-07-28 1944-07-29 1944-07-30 1944-08-01 1944-08-04 1944-11-17 1944-11-18 1944-12-04 1944-12-06 1944-12-07 1944-12-12 1944-12-15 1944-12-18 1944-12-24 1944-12-28 1944-12-29 1945-01-01 1945-01-02 1945-01-05 1945-01-07 1945-01-08 1945-01-23 1945-02-01 1945-02-02 1945-02-03 1945-02-04 1945-02-07 1945-02-08 1945-02-09 1945-02-14 1945-02-15 1945-02-18 1945-02-20 1945-02-21 1945-03-07 1945-03-08 1945-03-22 1945-03-24 1945-03-25 1945-03-31 1945-04-11 1945-04-13 1945-04-14 1945-04-25 1945-04-30 1945-05-05 1945-05-07 1945-05-15 1945-05-22 1945-06-08 1945-06-18 1945-08-03 1945-08-05 1944-06-06 1944-08-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Description An account of the resource Observer's and air gunner's flying log book for Pilot Officer Godfrey from 3 of February 1941 to 25 of September 1945 detailing training schedule, instructional duties and operations flown. Aircraft flown were Dominie, Proctor, Wellington, Hampden, Anson, Defiant, Martinet, Stirling, Lancaster, C-47 and Oxford. He was stationed at RAF Manby, RAF Bassingbourn, RAF Harwell, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Downham Market, RAF Hemswell, RAF Wittering, RAF Abingdon, RAF Upper- Heyford, RAF Upwood, RAF Gillingham, RAF Cranwell, RAF Melton Mowbray, RAF Church Fenton, RAF Market Drayton, RAF Waddington, RAF Upavon, RAF Sywell, RAF Carlisle, RAF Linton-On-Ouse, RAF Newbury, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Brize Norton, RAF Exeter, RAF Andover, RAF Hampstead Norris, RAF Hythe, RAF Gibraltar, RAF St Eval, RAF El Dabba, RAF Shaluffa, RAF Abu Sueir, RAF Almaza, RAF Blyton, RAF Ingham, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Leeming, RAF Acklington, RAF Middleton St. George, RAF Newmarket, RAF Moreton-in-Marsh, RAF Leconfield, RAF Skipton-on-Swale, RAF Wyton, RAF Warboys, RAF Westcott, RAF Gravely and RAF Worcester. He completed 37 operations with 37 Squadron in North Africa and the Mediterranean and 59 operations with 635 Squadron to targets in Belgium, France and Germany. Targets included: Heraklion, Piraeus, Derna, Tmimi, Benghazi Harbour, Gazala, Mersa Matruh, Ras El Shaqiq, El Dabaa, Tobruk, Fukah, Quotaifiyah, Düren, Munster, Mantes- Gassicourt rail yards, Haine-Saint-Pierre rail yards, Hasselt rail yards, Rennes, Angers rail yards, Caen, Revigny rail yards, Nucourt, Wesseling oil refineries, L’Hey, Kiel, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Notre Dame [Chapelle Notre Dame?], Trossy St. Maximin, Karlsruhe, Merseburg, Essen, Ludwigshafen, Duisburg, Düsseldorf, Mönchengladbach, Troisdorf, Dortmund, Nuremberg, Hannover, Munich, Gelsenkirchen, Mainz, Wiesbaden, Osterfeld, Kleve, Wanne-Eickel, Chemnitz, Wesel, Worms, Hemmingstedt, Dorsten, Bottrop, Osnabruck, Berchtesgaden, Ypenburg and Rotterdam. Notable events are that Charles Godfrey undertook a search and rescue operation in a Defiant and during the operation to Trossy St. Maximin 4 August 1944 his aircraft, Lancaster ND811, was brought down by anti-aircraft fire. Whilst he survived and evaded, his pilot, Ian Willoughby Bazalgette was awarded the Posthumous Victoria Cross. Pilot Officer Godfrey also took part in Operation Manna, Operation Exodus and Operation Dodge. The hand written notes added to the end of the log book give a description to the crash at Senantes, and his attempts to evade capture: RAF Lossiemouth S/L Ian Willoughby Bazalgette 33 on first [?] [indecipherable] DFC Flight Commander Deputy – RAM Palmer Left there April 1944 – 37 on first tour [?] [indecipherable] F/O Geof [sic] Goddard Nav F/O Ivan Hibbert Bomb Aimer F/O Godfrey F/O Cameron DFM ex F/Sgt Middleton’s V.C. rear gunner Joined at PFF Navigation Training met [?] by Sgt George Turner then on Sqdn by F/LT Colonel Hewell [?] mid upper 6/5/44 First op as crew During May 5 and June 7 night ops In July Daylight and night ops 1 2 ND950 ‘M’ Mother 23 Kiel Last week in July 24 Stuttgart 25 Stuttgart [indecipherable] and motor bike [?] 28 Hamburg 4 August 1944 Should have gone on leave F/L Henson missing – Oxford to York One crew required Baz [?] volunteered – get one more in before leave Daylight to Trossy St Maximin Took T for Tommy instead of M Mother Crew conference at [?] dispersal – decided to go in at 6000 feet main force up at 12000 feet. [page break] F/LT Beveridge (DMB) shot down by flak going into target Nearing target heavy Ack-Ack shell penetrated starboard wing – Both engines spluttered to standstill Bomb aimer wounded [page break] Godfrey last to leave aircraft G. Goddard put foot [?] on him and out he went. Landed in tree I landed in cornfield – stripped [?] [indecipherable] and hid parachute under corn stacks [?] - lay under hedge – rather shocked Lancaster hit deck two fields ahead exploded on landing down Village of Senantes Maire of village helped us – in civvies within a few minutes of landing. Lay in potato bed all afternoon while Germans searched for survivors – waited till darkness into house for meal. Slept at gentlemans [sic] house – [indecipherable]. Moved by horse and Cart to farm near Chappelle [sic] aux Pots No English – lying sunbathing alongside Railway line – Thunderbolts beat up train SS troops moved back. Moved to Forest for 10 days – [indecipherable] to lay on food from 3 farms. Heavy rain Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sally Coulter Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Review Oct 2024 11 OTU 15 OTU 20 OTU 37 Squadron 635 Squadron air gunner Air Gunnery School aircrew Anson anti-aircraft fire bale out bombing bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944) bombing of Trossy St Maximin (3 August 1944) C-47 Cook’s tour Defiant Dominie evading Hampden killed in action Lancaster Martinet missing in action Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944) Operation Dodge (1945) Operation Exodus (1945) Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945) Operational Training Unit Oxford Pathfinders Proctor RAF Abingdon RAF Almaza RAF Andover RAF Bassingbourn RAF Blyton RAF Brize Norton RAF Carlisle RAF Church Fenton RAF Cottesmore RAF Cranwell RAF Downham Market RAF Graveley RAF Hampstead Norris RAF Harwell RAF Hemswell RAF Ingham RAF Leconfield RAF Leeming RAF Linton on Ouse RAF Lossiemouth RAF Manby RAF Marston Moor RAF Melton Mowbray RAF Middleton St George RAF Moreton in the Marsh RAF Newmarket RAF Skipton on Swale RAF St Eval RAF Sywell RAF Upavon RAF Upper Heyford RAF Upwood RAF Waddington RAF Warboys RAF Westcott RAF Wittering RAF Wyton Resistance shot down Stirling tactical support for Normandy troops training Victoria Cross Wellington wireless operator https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/448/7918/ASaraniR170325.1.mp3 800bd1562b956acccb35758c125350c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Sarani, Rinaldo Rinaldo Sarani R Sarani Description An account of the resource One oral history interview with Rinaldo Sarani who recollects his wartime experiences in Pavia and the surrounding area. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sarani, R Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rinaldo Sarani Description An account of the resource Rinaldo Sarani tells of the bombings of Pavia describing widespread damage at Borgo Ticino and people being extricated from rubble. He stresses the importance of bridges: Ponte della Ferrovia, Ponte Vecchio, Ponte dell’Impero, Ponte della Becca, and describes how inefficient anti-aircraft fire was, being mockingly dubbed “pensioner’s flak“. He reminisces about various wartime episodes: Pippo flying at night; the danger of minefields; partisan actions; killings; fascist militiamen brutalities; the Mongols (which were part of a German foreign division); makeshift shelters; and people being tortured in Broni. Rinaldo describes a bomb dump explosion and how people disassembled ordnance to salvage explosives used for fishing, often with tragic consequences. Hi elaborates on the Fascism and recollects a person being helped by Rachele Mussolini. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Filippo Andi Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-25 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:42:32 audio recording Language A language of the resource ita Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ASaraniR170325 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Italy Italy--Po River Valley Italy--Pavia Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending OH transcription Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maureen Clarke anti-aircraft fire bomb dump bombing home front incendiary device Mussolini, Benito (1883-1945) Pippo Resistance shelter strafing https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/449/7929/AAn01104-170712.1.mp3 600fee69fe4502282f43fa0cc4fcd754 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource An eyewitness of the Voghera bombings (informant C) Description An account of the resource One oral history interview with an informant who recollects his wartime experiences in Voghera. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context An01104 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with a survivor of the Voghera bombings (informant C) Description An account of the resource The interviewee recollects his wartime experiences in Voghera. He claims he has always had the gift of sensing impending events, the first episode being when he told his mother that aircraft are approaching before, the siren had sounded, and therefore managed to escape moments before a bomb hit the house. He describes how he and his mother ran among bombs falling, being denied shelter in a doorway on the grounds it was already packed, and how many people were killed in the same bombing. He mentions wartime anecdotes: riding an American tank; the death of Franco Forini, a friend mutilated by live ammunition as he was gathering for scrap; and his mother picking up grain left in the fields after the harvest. He praises her humanity, resolution and cheerfulness. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Filippo Andi Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:11:17 audio recording Language A language of the resource ita Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AAn01104-170712 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Italy Italy--Po River Valley Italy--Voghera Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending OH transcription Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maureen Clarke bombing childhood in wartime home front Resistance shelter superstition https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/450/7970/AHarrisonR151116.2.mp3 78c4628fae306c070946abd90f7380e4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harrison, Richard Richard Harrison Dick Harrison Description An account of the resource 10 items. An oral history interview with Richard Harrison (b. 1924, 1833947 Royal Air Force) a page from his log book and documents about gunnery training. Richard Harrison flew operations as a B-24 air gunner with70 Squadron, 231 Wing, 2015 Group in Italy. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Richard Harrison and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Harrison, R Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AM: Okay then so, this is Annie Moody for the International Bomber Command centre and Lincoln University, and today I’m with Dick Harrison in York, and what I’d like you to tell me is, first of all, is just date of birth and just a little bit about your family and your, your upbringing, what your parents did, that sort of thing. RH: Yeah, I was born of the 5th of February 1924, I was born in Köln en Rhine, Deutschland, Cologne, Germany and er yeah, Dad English, Mother German, we came back to England in I think it was 1926, I was two years old. AM: How did your Dad meet your Mum then if she was German? RH: He was in the army of occupation. AM: In? In Cologne or? RH: In Germany. AM: In Germany, yeah. RH: Yeah, because he’d been on the Western Front from 1915 to 18, he was a regular soldier when he was in Cologne and various other places in the Rhineland, but he met my Mother in Cologne. AM: Right. RH: I think they were married there in 1922, something like that. AM: So, what did he do when you came back to England? What did your parents do? RH: Well he was a regular soldier and he carried on being a soldier. AM: Right. Right through, yeah? RH: Yeah until 19, yeah 1936. AM: Oh blimey, right. RH: He left the army and became a civil servant. AM: Ah, me too, well that’s another story. [laughter] RH: And me too. [laughter] AM: So, tell me a bit about your school years then. RH: School years, well Dad’s camp was near Salisbury, Winterbourne, so I went to a primary school in Winterbourne, and although people say today, you know, how good the schools were back then, this was a truly appalling school [laughs] well, and from there, I can’t remember what it was called, you sat the exam when you were eleven. And from there I went to Bishops school in Salisbury which was a local grammar school, then unfortunately my Dad left the army, the civil service post was in Gloucestershire, so we had to move to Gloucestershire, and I went to and I had to transfer schools, from a very [emphasis] good and excellent school in Salisbury to certainly a below par one in Gloucester. AM: Right. RH: Near Gloucester. AM: What age were you when you left? RH: When I left what? AM: When you left school. RH: Sixteen. AM: Did you do schools certificate and everything? RH: No, I didn’t. AM: No. RH: No, I had enough of that school. AM: Right. [laughs] So what did you do when you left school? RH: Worked in an office. AM: Yeah, doing? RH: Pardon? AM: Doing just normal administrative? RH: Yes. AM: Office work. RH: Yes, just clerical work, that’s all. AM: Yeah. RH: It was a company that, it was a [unclear]company so I was dealing with invoices and things like that. AM: Right. So what year are we up to now? Sixteen, nineteen, I’m just trying to work my own arithmetic out, if you were sixteen? RH: I left school in 1940. AM: Right, so the war had started. RH: Yeah and I was already involved. [background noise] AM: Right, and I’m looking now at the County and City of Gloucester air raid precautions, and this is to certify that mister Richard Harrison completed his course in anti-gas training, under the auspices of County and City of Gloucester air raid precautions central authority and has acquired sufficient knowledge of anti-gas measures to act as a member of the public ARP service. Tell me about that then, what was that like? RH: Erm, and that’s what I— AM: Oh, I’ve missed a bit, nature of the course attended was— RH: Was a cycle messenger. AM: Right, what did that mean? RH: We were about ten miles north of Bristol, so when they were attacking Bristol, you know I was very interested, the first time I saw flak [laughs] but— AM: What was that like then? RH: Well, I mean as a kid it’s all very interesting, isn’t it? I mean we, the village hall was our local ARP post, and every Friday night that was my job, even when I was at school, every Friday night, get there for six or seven o’clock, I think it was, until six, seven o’clock the next morning, with my bike ready to go anywhere. And all over Bristol, it was a fantastic sight really was, searchlights, flak, German bombers coming over lit up, one crashed about a mile away from us here, but no it was quite a, quite a sight, and when they attacked Avonmouth and the oil tanks were set on fire, the whole of the horizon was red, yeah amazing sight. AM: So, where were you sent off cycling? Taking what sort of messages? RH: [sighs] Well we was just, I can’t remember the details. I remember one, one regular one was to cycle down to the pub and bring them back a pint of cider or something, and that was a regular run. [laughter] AM: Right, so the message was, how many drinks? RH: Yeah. AM: So, so when, so that was it, you did your cycling in your messenger training. RH: Yes. AM: And then what? RH: What? AM: What made you join the RAF? Oh, what came next should I say with regards to? RH: The Home Guard. AM: Right. RH: I joined that when, yeah before I was seventeen I joined that and despite what people say and that, because there’s that film— AM: Dad’s Army RH: Dad’s Army. I mean, it was one of the most useful things ever because I was in a platoon where the officer commanding was World War one soldier, my Father was a platoon sergeant, World War one soldier, there were several of them, I mean when I went into the RAF, foot drill, arms drill, using a rifle, shooting on the range, using a machine gun. AM: You’d already done it. RH: It was easy, yeah, it was easy. I also joined the Air Training Corps about the same time. AM: Right. RH: So, at one time I had three balls in the air [laughs] ARP, Home Guard, Air Training Corps. AM: And [unclear] RH: And in addition to that, I took a St John’s, St John ambulance first aid course and got a certificate for that, so— AM: Right. RH: Yeah. AM: Blimey. So, when you joined the RAF, but I think Gary said RAF regiment? RH: Pardon? AM: I think Gary said you joined the RAF regiment? [phone rings] RH: Excuse me. [interview paused] RH: Where were we? AM: So, where were we? GR: You were juggling three balls, ATC. AM: We were juggling all those balls with your ATC, and your Home Guard. RH: In the end I packed up the, one of them became civil defence from ARP, so I packed, I packed that up, I couldn’t get— AM: Right. RH: Otherwise I was chasing round four nights a week [laughs] and weekends with the Home Guard. AM: And working in your office. RH: And working as well. AM: And working as well. RH: Yeah. AM: So, you’re coming up to eighteen, why the RAF? Where did you join? What was, what was you’re, what was it like? RH: For a young lad I mean it’s, it’s just the glamour of the thing. King and country had nothing at all to do with it [laughs] don’t say that— [laughter] AM: We’ll cut that out. RH: All I wanted, well I mean, one saw a war films didn’t you, ‘target for the night’ and all the rest of it. But unfortunately, I had a heart condition and my, on my medical records which I saw, because I wanted to go into aircrew, I wanted to be a wireless operator. AM: Right. RH: Wireless operator [unclear] because I’d been, Father had taught my brother and I morse code, and in the house, he’d rigged up two keys and we used to use that, even when we were ten or eleven years old we knew the morse code, and in the Air Training Corps, when the CO discovered I already knew morse, I became the morse code instructor for the squadron. [laughter] RH: And, but when I went for the medical, I think I was, temporarily unfit for aircrew duties, they said that would right itself eventually, and I remember being interviewed by the, this officer, he said, ‘well, I’m sorry,’ he said, ‘ that you’re fit for ground crew duties but you’re not fit for aircrew duties,’ I said, ‘right, in that case I don’t want to join the RAF, I’m going to join the army,’ [laughs] because I was fit enough for the army, and I had a mate, a school friend who was up at Catterick driving a tank, saying how great it was and I could picture myself in that, so I said, ‘I’m going to join the army, the Armour Corps,’ ‘no you’re not,’ he said, ‘no you’re not,’ he said, ‘we’re not going to waste, what was it twelve months or more Air Training Corps and then you go in the army,’ he said, ‘you’ll be called up,’ and that’s what happened. I got, yeah, before Christmas it was, 1942. AM: Right. RH: And I got my call up papers and went to Penarth in South Wales where they sorted you out, and because I’d been a clerk in civvy street, I went through trade tests, maths, English, I could type, type writing, book keeping, and that took all morning, and then at the end of it they said, ‘alright you’re now a trade group for clerk general duties,’ but it did mean that whereas a lad going in without any trade at all was getting three shillings a day, I got four shillings and threepence a day because I was a trade [laughs] and of course guys like one of the guys I sort of chummed up with, he had been a metal worker, and I can’t remember what trade he went into, but I know he was getting sort of, six shillings and something a day because he was a group one trade as against group four. Right, so what do you want next then? AM: Ooh, well, what happened next? Tell me about it. What were you actually doing then? So, you got three a day— RH: I can think, in my eight weeks I think it was, square bashing and then I was posted to RAF Tempsford in Bedfordshire. AM: Right. RH: And, that was the base for the special duties squadrons, 161 and 138, and they were dropping supplies and people for the resistance. AM: Right, okay. RH: And it was all top secret, I mean I suppose I didn’t know what they were doing. GR: There was Maurice Buckmaster and Vera Atkins. RH: Well, maybe so, Wing Commander Pickard, DSO, a couple of bars and all the rest of it, he was, he was the C.O. and, but I knew something about aircraft, and so what struck me was these Halifax’s, they had no mid upper turret, and I thought well that’s strange, and bomb trolleys were parked alongside the hangar with grass growing through them, so they weren’t being used [laughs] but no one told you anything. Eventually one of the guys in the office said, ‘Dick, do you know what we are doing?’ and this was after a month or so, I said, ‘yeah, I reckon you’re dropping agents into, into France,’ I said, because I had to do a what, a sort of duty every now and again, overnight, man the phone and so forth, and during that time, you would see a couple of black saloon cars going, going by, and they were going over to, what I discovered later, was a farm, an old farm where they were kitted up before they did their jumps. And, yeah, very secret, so I remember a guy crashed on take-off and they were all killed, and that night or the next night the father was calling and I answered the phone, and I said, ‘I’m sorry I can’t tell you anything,’ you know, ‘was he on the raid to Berlin?’ I said, ‘I’m sorry,’ [laughs] I knew what had happened to him but wasn’t allowed to say. And another little story, no need to record, as I say it was all top secret, this Halifax was missing, so that was seven guys as well, so into the HQ, came their, the NCOs, their pay books and in the pay book was a next of kin listed. Now the wireless operator in that crew had listed his next of kin as a girl in Sandy village, which was four or five miles— AM: Yeah, I know where you mean. RH: Away, you know? AM: Yeah, I know exactly where you mean. RH: You know where I mean? So, the Padre and another officer went down to give her the bad news, sort of thing he was missing, but I mean I wasn’t witness to this, I only heard about it afterwards, and apparently when they gave her the bad news, she said, ‘well he’ll be alright wont he?’ they said, ‘what do you mean?’ ‘well I mean, they are dropping supplies to the French resistance and they’ll — AM: Oh God. RH: Get him back. Which they didn’t. While I was there, not him, but while I was there a guy came back, but the only thing I saw was her arriving with an RAF police escort in a car, and she was wheeled in to see Wing Commander Pickard, and I suppose he read the riot act to her, keep your mouth shut. AM: Yeah. RH: And some years ago when I was caravanning down there, I went back to see if I could get onto Tempsford, but it was all wired off, but you could see the huts in the background, and I met, a local woman came out of her house, and as a wee child she remembered this place and she said, ‘you see that hedge there?’ she said, ‘we lived up on the hill and we weren’t allowed to come below that hedge, no civilians were allowed below that hedge line,’ it was so, so secret. AM: It’s amazing isn’t it. RH: On one occasion Wing Commander Pickard, flying a Hudson, that’s that one up there, that was— AM: I’m looking at, I’m looking at models here. RH: Yeah, that was his aircraft, and he’d taken people down to the south of France to a landing ground down there, and when it came to take off, he’d bogged down, because it was just a field, and so they had to turn out local farm horses and so forth and pull him onto hard ground so he could take off. I remember next morning in the HQ, one of the guys said to me, ‘have you seen the CO’s Hudson take off?’ I said, ‘no,’ he said, ‘well go and look at hangar so and so,’ and there it was parked up outside, still with mud up into the engines themselves, and he got a, I think he had three DSO’s, was it, Wing Commander Pickard? He was shot down in the end on another raid, yeah. So, there we are, what’s next then? AM: So that’s that, well you tell me. What came next? RH: I must have been the worst clerk general duties that the RAF ever had, because I wasn’t a bit interested in what I was doing [laughs] and I was always on the— AM: Wanting to be up there. RH: Back in front of the adjutant flight sergeant being given a lecture about something I’d done wrong. Then one day two guys came into the office and I knew they’d been in north Africa, and they said, ‘can we have a form to volunteer to go overseas,’ I said, ‘but you’ve only just come back.’ [emphasis] AM: Two aircrew this? RH: Pardon? AM: Two aircrew you talking about? RH: No, they weren’t aircrew. AM: Oh right, okay still— RH: They were two groundcrew. Said, ‘we’ve only just come back,’ and I said, ‘you want to go back out there again?’ ‘well, [emphasis] England, terrible place isn’t it, full of Yanks and all the rest, no, the sooner we get out of here the better,’ so I thought, what a good idea. [laughter] GR: Get me one of these forms. [laughter] RH: Get me one of those forms, yeah. And then I had a medical and this medical officer said, you know, as I said to you on the phone yesterday, he said, ‘right, condition no longer, so I’ll put you forward shall I, for the aircrew medical?’ I said, ‘no, no thanks I want to go overseas.’ [laughter] RH: Did you read that letter? GR: This one? RH: Yeah, the one, the regiment one? GR: Yes, I’m reading it, yeah. AM: I’ll take a copy afterwards. So, you went overseas rather than aircrew? RH: Yes, I volunteered to go overseas, it was all very quick, in fact I was sent on what they called, embarkation leave. AM: Hmm, hmm. GR: Yeah. RH: And I think that was one week or two, and while I was at home in Gloucestershire, a telegram came telling me to report back to Tempsford, and I’d only been home two or three days, and so I went back and there was my posting notice, and I think, I thought the RAF were taking their revenge on me for not carrying on with aircrew because they posted me to an RAF Regiment squadron. And believe me in 1943, to be in the RAF Regiment, you know, I mean today, yes, they’ve got a good reputation, but that was really the backend of everything. And there were about a dozen of us, tradesmen, clerks, cooks, vehicle mechanics, armourers, wireless guys and so forth, and all resentful [laughs] at being posted to the regiment. AM: Where was that though? Where were you posted to? RH: Oh yeah, that was near Peterborough, near Peterborough. And, when I arrived there, there was a corporal clerk in the, what do you call it? Orderly room, in the orderly room. And as soon as I arrived, he sent off a signal under the adjutant’s signature, under who was away at the time, to the airman’s records at Innsworth in Gloucestershire saying, that Corporal so and so, can’t remember his name, was unfit for overseas duty. And so about, a couple of days later a signal came posting him out, didn’t get off kindly. [laughs] AM: So where, where from, where did you go from Peterborough? RH: Overseas. AM: Yeah, but where though? Whereabouts? RH: Sicily. AM: Sicily. RH: We went to, yeah it was a, it took a month altogether, although I think it was three weeks to Algiers on a troop ship as a convoy— AM: I was going to say— RH: As it was, but— Yeah, although in my letter I said, not eventful, in fact it was interesting at times because a U-boat got in amongst the convoy, and there were destroyers dashing up and down dropping depth charges. [laughs] AM: It’s probably quite exciting when you are eighteen, nineteen. RH: It was, when you are a kid, when you are a kid. AM: You’re still a teenager, really aren’t you? RH: Yeah, I remember saying to one of the seamen on our, on our troop ship, you know, ‘why is that, why are they flying a black pennant?’ he said, ‘that’s because they’ve detected a boat,’ he said, ‘they’ve detected a U, U-boat.’ Then we went to Algiers, and then we left Algiers, still didn’t know where we were going at that time. And then, I was in what was called the headquarters flight, which all the tradesmen were in that flight and we were called up for a briefing by the adjutant, and then we knew we were going to Sicily, and there were maps passed round for us to look at, and we were going to takeover, it was a light anti-aircraft squadron by the way, it had a twenty-millimetre cannon. AM: Okay. RH: We were going to take over defence of the Gerbini airfield near Cantania in Sicily, and that was the plan. But unfortunately, the Germans, you know, didn’t know what our plan was— [laughter] RH: And so, when we got to Sicily they were still there. [laughs] And er, yeah, we landed, we went to Malta first, I think we stayed there overnight or a couple of nights, and then we went to Sicily, and it was over the, over the side, down scrambling nets onto the landing craft and then onto a little [old?] pier sort of thing. And then we formed up and marched up into an olive grove and we were there for about a week. We were waiting for our trucks to arrive and the cannon, but they’d all been sunk. It was funny when we were en route from Algiers to Malta, there was a, ‘boom,’ bang and a great column of smoke over in the distance, that was the ship going down, and we heard later that was our ship [laughs] with all the trucks on. AM: Blimey. RH: So when we got to, then we were posted and moved to Lentini and that was a new, new landing ground, and we were sent there for anti-parachute troop duties. The Germans had dropped paratroopers into Sicily, not, not straight into combat, they dropped them as reinforcements to the guys who were already there. AM: Yeah. RH: And, but some of them were dropped too far south, and when the 8th Army had pushed up and they were left behind. AM: I’m just looking, thinking about the geography, so you’re in the south of Sicily? RH: Pardon? AM: I’m just thinking about the geography of Sicily, so the Germans were on the island? RH: Oh yeah, and eventually, eventually they had four divisions there. They had three to, three to begin with and then, then they dropped in two regiments from the 1st Parachute Division, and they were dropped in as reinforcements, behind their own lines. But they were the guys who eventually who stopped the 8th Army, you know, getting any further. But, and so when we got to Lentini, they were forming patrols of about a dozen guys and an NCO, and they [unclear] [laughs] searched the local olive groves and go through, and as I said in, in the letter, you know, God help them if they come across any German para’s because I’m sure we would have been sending out the first missing in action signals. [laughter] RH: Because they wouldn’t have stood a chance, they wouldn’t have stood a chance against those guys. So, that was that. AM: So, how long were you there for, on Sicily? RH: Pardon? AM: How long were you on Sicily for? Ish? RH: Yeah, we landed there a week after the invasion began, July, August, and then, when did we go into Italy? September the 3rd? So, we went into Italy on September the 10th, something like that. AM: Right, so, so the Germans had been pushed back? RH: They evacuated. AM: They evacuated. RH: Yeah, they got everything away, they got everything away, they had a defensive line sort of thing, and they just took it step by step back, and meanwhile they, I think forty thousand men all their guns and tanks, everything they managed to get across the Straits of Messina. And, [pause] the regiment squadron, we were on, we moved from Lentini to the Scordia landing ground, again it’s only a rough strip through, through the fields and that was the American 57th Fighter Group. They were equipped with P-40 Warhawks and they used to go out day after day trying to stop the Germans evacuating the— AM: Getting across the Straits. RH: Their, their stuff. And that was the first time I’d come across American, Americans and they were great guys, [emphasis] they really were. And later on, we were on the same airfield, when I was in aircrew and again, you know, they really are first, first class blokes, I thought. AM: So, you’re on, we’re on the push now, what, what month did we say we were? August? What, what— GR: No, September into Italy. AM: And September into Italy. RH: September into Italy. AM: So you— RH: I’ll just tell this little story while we— AM: Go on, yes. RH: At Scordia, I mean they were suffering losses because I mean they were having to make quite low level attacks with their fighter bombers. And we were watching these guys coming back, and, and one of them he came in rather high, banged [emphasis] down onto the ground, up in the air, bang [emphasis] and then turned over onto his, onto his back, so the pilot was trapped under, underneath. But I mean, they were very, very quick, in no time there was a, the er, a fire tender, an ambulance, and a mobile crane. And the mobile crane lifted the aircraft up, turned it over— AM: [inaudible] RH: And they forced the canopy open and out [laughs] got this young lieutenant, stepped on the wing, walked away a few paces, reached into his overalls, pulled out a cigar— AM: [gasps] Oh no. RH: Lit it and went on walking. [laughter] RH: And I thought, well there’s, there’s a nerve for you, [laughs] there’s a nerve for you. But on the other side of the coin, I remember, I used to like going out into their dispersal and watch them come in. And, they’d taken off— [background noise] RH: And then one of them left the formation, came round, landed and then taxied up to where we were, we were, sort of thing, switched off the engine, pilot got out and he walked over to the, the er. There was a sergeant who was a sort of an engineer mechanic, whatever, and I can’t remember the words after all these years what the pilot said, but he was complaining that there was a fault in the, in the engine, there was something, something wrong, and then he walked away. And I said the sergeant, I said, ‘what do you thinks wrong with that then?’ Now, you’ll have to excuse the language. AM: It’s alright. [laughs] RH: He said, ‘nothing he’s just shit scared,’ he said. [laughter] AM: Fair enough. RH: So then we went into Italy, [pause] now tell you, this was a regiment [laughs] with a squadron, and so I knew [emphasis] very well, being, being in the HQ, the squadron had been told they had to go to Crotone landing ground which was sort of under the, that part of the— AM: The heel. RH: Italian boot. AM: The heel. RH: And of course, and we were following a Canadian division along the coast. They were way, way, way ahead, we never ever saw them. When we got to Crotone landing ground, nothing there at all because it had already been evacuated. Now the same time as the 8th Army landed on the toe and moved up on the north coast, the Canadians were moving along the south coast and the British 1st Airborne Division came in by sea to land at Taranto to push up on the Adriatic coast. And when we were somewhere west of, of Taranto we came across the Airborne guys, and, and they were stopping our convoy. Now in our convoy would be about a dozen three tonne four by four Bedfords, three or four jeeps, two Italian trucks that we had pinched, stolen and, and motorcycles and so forth. Yeah, we spotted these Italian trucks in a little town called Catanzaro down on the toe and the C.O. had seen them, two big Fiat trucks, and so he said to our corporal fitter, engine fitter, ‘do you reckon you can get those going?’ he said, ‘yeah right.’ So sometime around midnight he and another mechanic went out and started them and drove them up the road a bit and then we found them [unclear] AM: Appropriated them. [laughs] RH: And then painted them in RAF camouflage and off we went. And then so, yeah, we met the guys with the, with the red berets and from what they were saying is, ‘go careful, keep your heads down because there are German para snipers in the area,’ [laughs] and I thought to myself, we shouldn’t be here, we had no business to be there with just our, just the C.O. You know, woo, let’s just going, you know so think you can imagine we were some kind of Panzer unit or something. And then we drove into Bari, you know that? AM: Yeah. RH: Well as we went to Bari, there were people on the pavements, waving and cheering and then passing out bottles of wine. [laughter] RH: And I thought, well this can’t be right, and, and where are our guys? I didn’t see any British soldiers at all, and we drove through Bari, and I can’t remember the name of the town now, but about ten miles north of Bari on the main coast road, we came into this little township, and again, [emphasis] people came out and they were waving and saying oh— AM: Italian civilians you mean? RH: Yeah, [emphasis] Italian civilians, I thought it’s got to be something, it’s got to be wrong you know, and then the word quickly came down the, the line, the Germans left here this morning. [laughter] RH: Well that decided the C.O., all the trucks were turned round. [laughs] GR: You were the spear guard you were, you were out in front. [laughter] RH: We go back to, we went back to Bari, and he looked at his map. Bari airport which was an Italian air force base then, we’ll go there, and we’ll the, we’ll take over the airfield, we had no business— AM: Is this just you the RAF Regiment, you’re talking here? RH: Yeah. AM: Right. RH: No business at all to be, to be there. And we drove up to the entrance and there were gates and as we drove up, there were armed Italians carrying their funny little carbine rifles, they shut the gate. Now I wasn’t there I didn’t hear what, what was said but they refused to let us in. So, then the order came down the line, ‘get your rifles out men and load them, and stand by the trucks.’ And of course, in our headquarters truck, where are the rifles? [laughter] AM: We’re laughing now, but I bet you weren’t laughing at the time. RH: Scrambling, put ten rounds in the magazine, get out the truck. Meanwhile the Italians, a lot of them, had crossed the road and were in the olive grove in that side, so I thought, God, we are going to be between two lots here, but I think that fact that they saw a hundred guys or more getting out the trucks with their rifles ready, and that decided the Italians to open the gate and let us in. [laughter] RH: Yeah, so. AM: Blimey. GR: So you’re fighting your way up Italy? AM: And your C.O. wanted you to be fighting your way up. RH: Pardon? AM: And your C.O. wanted you to be fighting your way up. RH: And the, what do you call it? SWO, he was, he was another sort of, you know, let’s get up there and we’ll, all the rest of it. But, yeah then we went up to Foggia and there were several airfields there which the Germans had used, and yeah, we were, I think on two different airfields there, if I remember rightly, well airfields, landing grounds it was just a single strip. But I can’t remember anything worth reporting there. And by that time, we were subordinate to Desert Air Force, and so you’d get the daily orders from Desert Air Force. And on one they were appealing for air gunners, air gunners, now I thought right— AM: This is it. RH: We’ll have a go at this, and so I, you know, I applied and went to Desert Air Force headquarters to get the preliminary medical as such. And, it was, it was quite interesting, because they had my records there and the first officer to examine me, flight lieutenant or squadron leader, doctor or whatever he was, he said, ‘I can’t understand why you were failed in, a year ago,’ he said. He said, ‘there’s nothing wrong,’ and I said, ‘well it says temporarily unfit,’ ‘I can’t see nothing wrong, well, we’ll get a second opinion,’ and he called in the chief, the group captain, and he came in and checked me over, ‘yeah,’ he said, ‘no,’ he said, ‘I can’t think,’ he said, ‘why you were failed a year ago,’ he said, ‘there’s nothing wrong with your, with your heart.’ I used to think afterwards, they failed me because when they looked at my background, they realised in fact, that Mum was a German. [laughter] RH: I’ve thought that might be a— GR: That’s possible. AM: Yeah. GR: Yeah, yeah, possible. RH: Yeah. Because when it came to the aircrew selection board, that was the next thing. AM: Are you still in Italy at this point? RH: Yeah, oh yes. AM: Yeah. RH: The, the aircrew selection board, and they asked, they asked that question, ‘what if you were ordered to?’ I mean there was no possibility for me to fly from Italy all the way to Cologne, but still, [laughs] They said, ‘what if you were ordered to bomb Germany, bomb something in Germany, you know, you were born there and your Mothers German, what, what if you were ordered to do that?’ [laughs] And I said, ‘I would obey orders.’ [laughs] [laughter] RH: Yes, so then there was, I was still with the Regiment Squadron, but I mean they hadn’t, they hadn’t fired a shot in anger and they were anti-aircraft, there was no need for them, so they found a new job for the RAF Regiment. That was to go up to the, our artillery gun line which would be a three, or four miles behind the front line, and by day if our guys were flying and bombing, they would put out smoke indicators to show where our front line was, so that our guys didn’t bomb in it. And by night they would put out flares and I was only there less than, less than, less than a week and but apparently, they did have some casualties later, later on. But, so that was it, now I went to Desert Air Force headquarters, and I had three or four weeks there, and then before I went back to the Middle East. Desert Air Force headquarters was the best posting ever I had in the RAF of a, really good guys to work with, we had an Australian flight lieutenant who was our, the C.O. of what’s called the organisation section where I worked. And he used to share his food parcels with us and he knew I was sort of going through them and I was going on for air, aircrew training and he called me in one day and he said, ‘Harrison,’ now I know this sounds like a line shoot, but he said, ‘Harrison, you’ve done a really good job here,’ he said, ‘we’re very pleased at the way you’re, you’re working.’ That’s because I had a gen, I wasn’t responsible to anyone even though I was only an airman I was doing my own, my own job, sort of thing, which was location of units. AM: Right. RH: And briefing people who came in asking questions about you, he said, ‘now why don’t you forget this aircrew thing,’ he said, ‘and I can guarantee,’ he said, in a few months you’ll have your first stripes,’ he said, ‘and I can see you going on from there,’ and I said, ‘no thank you, very much.’ [laughs] And so that was it, now I went back to Egypt AM: Right. Where did you do your training, your aircrew training then? RH: Air gunner training. AM: Air gunner training, where did you do that? RH: Yeah, a place called El Ballah. AM: In, in Egypt? RH: On the canal zone. AM: Right. And how long, so how long were you training for? RH: Right. [pause] [paper rustling] RH: You can take these away. AM: Okay. RH: Later. There were three six-week courses. AM: Right. RH: The first one was at 51 Air Gunner Initial Training School, and they’re all the subjects. AM: Yeah. RH: Then you had a forty-eight-hour pass into Cairo and then you came for another six weeks— AM: Okay. RH: At 12 Elementary Air Gunner School. AM: Yeah. RH: From there are all the subjects again. AM: So, I’m looking at, I’ll, I’ll copy this, and but I’m looking at things like, different gun turrets, the Frazer Nash, the Boulton Paul, the Bristol. RH: Yeah that’s right. AM: Pyrotechnics, the Very pistol, the flares, forty flashes. Smoke floats? RH: Yeah, smoke floats, yeah. AM: Yeah, what’s a smoke float? RH: Well it was, about, about that big and the idea was that, that in daylight, over the sea, over, over water, the navigator would ask someone to drop a smoke float, okay? And then the tail gunner, the rear gunner— AM: Yeah, yeah. RH: Himself. You see that smoke float and you take a bearing on it with your sight, and there’s sort of a compass ring— AM: Right. RH: And you say,’ okay, it’s at so many degrees,’ and then the navigator would count off so many seconds and say, ‘okay take another reading,’ so you take another reading and it shows you your drift. AM: Right. RH: The difference between the two readings. AM: Yep. RH: Yeah, smoke float by day, yeah. AM: Oh. RH: And that’s 13 Air Gunner school where you finally get to fly. AM: I’m looking at this one because I was, I was going to ask you, what were, what did you actually train in? And we’ve got Avro Anson’s? RH: Yes, it’s up there, somewhere. AM: One of those up there? Dinghy drill. Did you all have individual dinghies at that point? RH: No, seven-man dinghies. AM: Because—It was a seven-man dinghy. Right. RH: Then we trained in, in the Suez Canal, and the canal was only a couple of miles away from the, from the air field, so the instructor would tow an inflated dinghy out into the middle of the canal. And that was another, another thing and I’ve never come across it before and I’ve mentioned it to other aircrew types and they’ve never heard of this before. You had to swim fifty yards [emphasis] and if you did not swim, if you couldn’t swim that fifty yards you failed. AM: That was it, you were out. RH: You failed the course. So, I mean you had a life jacket on which was a damn nuisance believe me if you’ve got a Mae West and you try swim. [laughs] So you went out, two of you at a time, went out to a dinghy and righted it. AM: Oops. RH: Sorry. Righted it, then got into it, and then when the instructor was satisfied, when you got out you pulled the dinghy over you so it was upside down for the next pair. AM: Right, and swam out from under it. RH: To go out, yeah. AM: I can’t imagine what the canal was full of? RH: Oh yeah, [emphasis] yeah. Now and then whistles are blowing and everyone would have to get out if a ship came by. [laughs] AM: Theres, there’s crocodiles isn’t there? RH: No, no. AM: Is there not? No. Alright then. RH: There’s far more— AM: I was thinking about horrible [unclear] RH: Theres worse stuff floating in the canal, believe me. AM: I can imagine. [laughter] AM: So, you’ve done your training. RH: Yeah. AM: Then what? RH: Then we’ve went to [paper rustling] from Egypt— AM: Hmm, hmm. RH: To Palestine. AM: Right. RH: For the O T U. AM: Right. [pause] So, I’m looking now at the, it was the 76 Operational Training Unit. RH: That’s right. AM: And you were on Wellington medium bombers at this point? RH: Yeah, yeah. AM: Tail gunner you said you were, weren’t you? RH: Yeah, yeah. AM: Tail end Charlie. RH: Yes, we formed up of, as you may know, you know, the people weren’t detailed, we all assembled in a hangar. AM: You did the crewing up. RH: And we sort of— AM: No other end. RH: Pardon? AM: No other end, is an expression— RH: Is it? AM: An expression, I’ve heard. RH: Yeah well. And Joe, the other gunner, he, he eventually found a pilot who wanted two gunners, and so we met this Eddy who came from the Midlands, and he said to us, ‘who’s best at aircraft recognition?’ and Joe said, ‘he is,’ pointing to me. [laughter] RH: ‘So, right you are the rear gunner then.’ AM: So that was it? That was how that was decided. But then, so when was heavy Conversion Unit, were you still in Palestine at that point? RH: No. We went back to Egypt for it. AM: Back to Egypt for that, right. RH: That was only four weeks I think at that point. AM: So this is the 1675 Heavy Conversion Unit, into B-24 Liberators. RH: B-24 Liberator, yeah. At least we got into a decent aircraft. AM: Yeah. What, how many crew were on that? Was there seven or more? Seven. RH: Well, seven. We trained as a crew of seven but operationally on the squadron, you carried an extra gunner, who manned the two waist guns. AM: Right, so there was waist guns on there? RH: There was also these, yeah, I did two or three [unclear] trips as a beam gunner, but you were the odd job. I’ll come to that when we get to the squadron then. AM: Alright, okay. So, carry on— RH: Well, [unclear, interviewer speaks over] AM: Tell me about that and what happened and any stories about the conversion unit course or on to what happened after that? RH: I can only think of a funny story on that. Sometimes, the nose wheel of the Liberator wouldn’t come down. And so, someone would go from the flight deck, for landing on the flight deck was a pilot, the engineer, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator and top gunner, six of them all on the flight deck in that area. If the nose wheel didn’t come down, there was a, a drill for it. One of them would go back into the nose and help to pull the thing down. Well, we’d been on a night exercise, and Joe our top gunner, a Lancashire lad, he always had intercom trouble. He was an electrician by trade, but he was a real jinx [emphasis] when it came to in, in, intercom. And the nose wheel hadn’t come down, so I mean I’m hearing everything on intercom, so the skipper said to, I think it was the bomb aimer Ron, ‘Ron go on down into the nose right and see if you can do it,’ and so Ron goes down there. Then the next thing I here, Ron’s on the intercom, ’no, I can’t do it and I need some help,’ ‘ah yeah, okay,’ and so the navigator is sent down. So, now there’s two of them in the nose trying to pull it— AM: Yank the thing, yeah. RH: And get the wheel down, and then they come back on the intercom, ‘no I can’t do it,’ so skipper, Eddy turns to Taffy our engineer and says, ‘Taff, go down and sort it, will you?’ So, Taff gets out of his seat and goes down. Theres a hatch in the flight deck that goes down into the nose. Now, Joe the top gunner, knows that the nose wheel hasn’t come down, and then his intercom goes dead. And one after another he sees the bomb aimer— AM: Oh God. RH: The navigator and the engineer all disappearing through that hatch down below, and what does he think? He thinks they’re all baling out. So, his seat release is a wire handle and he pulls that, drops out of his turret, goes straight through the hatch into the end of the bomb bay. AM: Oh no. GR: [unclear] [laughs] RH: He just had a few bruises that was all. AM: I was going to say, I thought you were going to say he went right through and had to pull his parachute. [laughs] GR: Well, the thing is to anybody listening, obviously Lancaster, Halifax, B-17 all land, and land tail down, but the B-24 was one that landed, and landed with its nose up. RH: Nose wheel GR: The same, yeah. So, it landed, straight— RH: Yes. GR: As opposed to sitting back on the tail, so when you were on about the nose wheel coming down that’s— AM: That’s why it’s important. GR: Yeah RH: Well, I— [unclear, interviewer speaks over] GR: In fact that was the only bomber that, that— RH: Yeah. GR: The only, only four engine bomber that, that happened. RH: If I remember rightly in HCU and I mean, I knew guys who were ahead of me and so forth, and Norman, and he came back and he came up to the truck as we were getting off it, and he said, ‘have you heard Mick Berry’s gone?’ Now, Mick Berry had been a corporal armourer and he was in our tent at gunnery school— AM: Right. RH: And he taught us more about the machine guns than the instructors. After all, that was his, his trade, he was a, I can still remember, he was a great [emphasis] man, he really was a good lad. And there they had, had crash landed and burst into flames, and Mick was in the mid er, top turret. Now that was held by, I think it was four bolts and it was a common fault that bang [emphasis] on, on the deck and that turret would drop out, and he was trapped and he couldn’t get out, yeah. GR: Oh God. RH: Mick Berry, he’s buried in the cemetery near Cairo. AM: Oh, right. How big is it? I’m looking at a model of the Liberator here. How big is it in comparison then to the Halifax and the, and the Lancaster? RH: [unclear] it’s a hundred and ten foot wingspan, the Liberator and the Hal, well Lanc, well it’s just over a hundred feet, in total. AM: I was going to say, it looks a bit bigger to me. RH: Yeah. AM: On the, on the model, I know [unclear] GR: Well at the same scales, they’re actually, the Liberators on a par with the Lancaster, probably slightly bigger. AM: I’m showing my ignorance now, is it American? GR: The B-24 was originally was an American bomber. RH: Oh yeah. AM: Oh. RH: Yeah, consolidated to the aircraft company, yeah. [pause] Nice aeroplane to fly because after flying in the Wellingtons as the rear or tail, tail gunner, the heating system, well, didn’t really exist. And, in O.T.U. going out on a flight at night, and we’d six hours, six and a half hour flights sort of thing in freezing [emphasis] weather and you’d have long johns and, and then your shirt and your pants, and so forth. And your wool, pullover, woolly, the battle dress, then over the battle dress, the, an inner flying suit— AM: Right. RH: Which was sort of kapok something or other, brown silky, you put that on. Then over that, the outer flying suit which wasn’t padded at all, then over that your life jacket, then over that your parachute harness. Now, some of the gunners at O.T.U. there was only one entry hatch and that was in the nose, so the guys used to take their kit with them and get dressed when they got down into the fuselage. But I had an arrangement with the navigator, and the bomb aimer, and the armourer who would turn the turret of our aircraft to a hundred and eighty degrees, so I could get in from the outside. And they would lift [emphasis] me up into the turret, and then when we got back I would turn the turret a hundred and eighty degrees, open the doors, fall out— AM: We’re talking about the rear turret then? GR: Yeah. RH: Pardon? AM: Yeah. RH: Yeah. And they would— GR: Tumble out. RH: And they would get me out. GR: [unclear] RH: The advantage of the Wimpy of course, and the rear, and with the Lanc and the British aircraft wasn’t it, you opened the doors as a tail gunner and you just bale out and go backwards— AM: You just flipped out. RH: Couldn’t do that on the Liberator. AM: So, we’ve done Heavy Conversion Unit, you’ve got your crew, you’ve done your training with your crew, when was— RH: I can’t think of any incidents. AM: When was your first operation then? RH: In February 45. AM: Right, and where, where was it too? RH: That’s a very good question, I think— AM: Germany somewhere? RH: No, I, no we were in Italy. AM: Oh, oh. RH: Yep, I think that’s just March, isn’t it? GR: That’s just March, yeah. AM: Yeah. GR: Yeah. AM: Can you remember what it was like going up? Right because now you’re doing it for real instead of training? Did it make a difference? RH: It was just a job. I think, you know guys of our age at that stage of the war, nine, you know, coming up to the end of the war, and you, I can’t think of the term really, indoctrinated or whatever, and you are used to it, you are used to it. AM: So, were you scared? RH: No I wasn’t, no. AM: No. RH: Because I didn’t have enough up there to be scared. [laughter] GR: Am I right in assuming that the, the bomber force in Italy at the time, was doing things like marshalling yards— RH: Yeah. GR: In northern Italy. RH: Yeah. GR: Austria. RH: Yeah. GR: Southern Germany? I think that there was a couple of trips. AM: I think, yeah, I thought, I thought you went to southern Germany? RH: No, we there were, I never went on a trip into Bavaria. GR: But that was some of their, their area of operations. RH: Yeah. GR: There was the northern Italy marshalling yards, the Turin’s, that sort of thing, Verona, to try and stop— RH: It was mainly the railway lines coming down through Bremen. GR: Yes. RH: And also down to Trieste and so forth. GR: Which was the main supplier [unclear] RH: And also, we, yeah, we bombed, what was it? Monfalcone, a little port, Ancona and Assa [?] yeah, they were, they were where the Germans had ships and used to supply their troops by night by running these boats along the coast, sort of thing. GR: Did you normally fly with an escort? With a— RH: On daylight, yeah. GR: Daylights, yeah. RH: Yeah, yeah. We had the Americans. GR: Yeah. RH: American B-51’s. GR: Tuskegee, Tuskegee airmen? RH: I don’t know who they were. GR: They, they were the black— AM: Yeah. RH: I remember on one, on a trip to Monfalcone in the daylight, I mean we didn’t fly in formation, I mean our guys didn’t know how to fly in formation I never, not on heavies. And it just the usual stream, and so there were, sort of sixty, eighty aircraft in a stream. And we picked up the American escort, this was at the top end of the Adriatic, Trieste. AM: Yep, yep. RH: Right, it was the port next to Trieste. AM: Yep. RH: And, we picked up the escort and it was coming up, and our wireless op was listening out on their frequency, there had to be some sort of contact for, for, I didn’t hear this. But I remember we’d said, said afterwards, he said, ‘when they saw us coming,’ he said, and they were [laughs] saying about look at those sort of God damned limeys they’re not in formation, you know, all that how do we protect this lot and all the rest of it. [laughs] AM: It’s like herding sheep. [laughter] RH: Yeah. AM: Or herding— GR: Are the Luftwaffe putting in much of an appearance? RH: No. GR: Towards that stage of the war? RH: No, no. AM: Were they not? RH: No, they had, they were 109’s on the Italian, northern Italian airfields, but I think most of those were in what was called the Italian Republican Airforce. GR: Yeah. RH: You know, Mussolini’s lot, so you did see them, you did see them. Right and I remember seeing a strange sight one night as we were coming away from wherever it was in northern Italy. It was all a tremendous glare of course and, and looking out I saw these three Lib’s flying in and they were in [laughs] formation more or less and then at the back end of the [unclear] was a Bf 109. [laughs] GR: Oh. [laughter] AM: Following you. RH: Following the— AM: Did you ever get shot at? RH: With flak. AM: With flak, but not, not as Gary said, not from a fighter? RH: No, no, I saw, yeah there was a, we were 70 Squadron, 37 Squadron operated from the same airfield. I mean I didn’t know who they were, were at the time but and coming back at night from somewhere, Austria I think it might, might have been, the, and then suddenly seeing green tracer which I knew it was German. And then red tracer [laughs] sort of thing, and then ‘woof’ [emphasis] up went the Lib and down he went, yeah and that was 37 Squadron. Liberator, all lost. AM: All gone. Did you ever shoot your guns at anything? RH: No. AM: Never? RH: No, no you even if, and we were tailed one night by a fighter coming back from Trento I think it was, Trento, Trento marshalling yards you know, and I just reported it to the, to the crew, it was a 109. And he was sitting out and sort of, sort of four hundred yards or so away, you’d just see them occasionally with the glare in the background but he didn’t close and I certainly wouldn’t fire at him because it would show where we were. GR: Were you were. AM: Other people have said that, why would you fire— RH: Yeah. Quite. AM: And you know, mark yourself out to them. RH: Yeah. AM: Effectively. RH: Yeah. Yeah, no you never, never fire unless you’re fired at. Okay? AM: Yeah. I think, have you got any more questions? GR: No, no. AM: How many operations did you do in the end? RH: Bombing, eighteen. AM: Eighteen. RH: And then we converted to supply, as the war was coming to an end— AM: Okay. RH: And the bombing stopped, and then they put some sort of racking inside the bomb bay so we could carry four-gallon cans of petrol and things like that. AM: Right. So, what did you do between the war ending and demob? RH: Er, yeah, we carried, you see although the war ended we’d already converted to transport. AM: Yeah. RH: And so, yeah for two or three weeks after VE Day we were flying, we were talking up supplies up to the north of Italy. And then after that they converted the bomb bay so you could carry bodies, troops, we could carry twenty-two. AM: Live bodies? RH: Yeah. AM: Live ones. RH: Twenty-two in the bomb, bomb bay. Poor blokes, [emphasis] I mean they just had to go down into the, down onto the catwalk and then climb over the back of these seats and then sit down. And there was the aircraft fuselage wall, just there sort of thing, and they had to sit there and on flights back to the UK, it took six and a half hours. AM: You can’t imagine, can you? GR: No. AM: Were these troops or did you take any prisoner of war back? RH: No, no— AM: It was troops. RH: These were troops. The ones we were flying back were due to be retrained and reformed to go out to Burma. These were the, I remember, you see they didn’t need the air gunners as such, so you became an odd bod sort of looking after these soldiers and so forth. And I remember on one occasion we were flying back with some guardsmen from a guard’s regiment, and the truck arrived and this lieutenant got out with his twenty odd bods. And they piled around and he said to our skipper, ‘we were all NCO’s, we were all senior NCO’s, he said, ‘have you anything to say?’ to the men sort of thing, and he said, ‘no.’ Since I was Harrison, generally I was called Harry, and so Ken said, ‘now Harry will look after you,’ well that wasn’t good enough for the, for the lieutenant. He turned around and he said, ‘when you are in the aircraft I don’t want you putting your hands out and grabbing any wires or anything.’ [laughter] RH: So I saw them on board and we were flying up to Peterborough, Croughton, just south, it was an American base at that time and I used to bring them out one at a time and with the beam hatches open they could have a smoke— AM: Right. RH: Sitting there. And I think it was one of the last guys, came out and he sat on the other beam gunners seat, and he didn’t have intercom of course, we could only talk to each other by shout, shouting really, and he shouted, he said, ‘do we go through customs?’ he said, I said, ‘well I don’t.’ Crewmen didn’t, you just went straight through, [laughs] I said, ‘you, yes you will have to go through customs,’ and I said, ‘why?’ and he pulled back the sleeve of his battle dress and [laughs] there were watches— [laughter] RH: On, on there. And I said, oh, how did you get those?’ and they disarmed an SS unit or something and so, and relieved them of all, of all their odds and ends. And er, and then he reached into his blouse, fiddled about and pulled out a pistol, and I said to him, I said, ‘I don’t think you’ll get through with that,’ he said, ‘I’ve got another one in my kit bag.’ [laughter] AM: I thought you were going to say you took them through for him. RH: No, no, no. AM: If you didn’t have to go through customs. GR: They’re here. AM: [laughs] RH: No, after, after we’d landed and I got my travel warrant, and had a forty-eight-hour pass to get back to Bristol. AM: Right. RH: Or near Bristol. And so, it was late evening when I caught a train from Peterborough to Kings Cross, and Kings Cross to Paddington, and Paddington to Temple Meads, then Bristol. Which, I arrived about seven o’clock in the morning, then I had to walk over to the bus station and get a bus, and I arrived at my parents’ house I think, yeah it must have been about nine o’clock in the morning. Knocked them up, then I had, since it was a Saturday, I had to leave next day, just after lunch— AM: To get back. RH: To get back, yeah, so my forty-eight-hour pass in fact was about thirty. AM: In the middle. RH: Oh, so, anything else I can help with? AM: Yes, this is, just out of interest this question. So, your Mum was German, how was she treated during the war? RH: Yeah, okay. AM: Were people okay with her? RH: Yeah, you see we were, when I say Dad went in, into the civil service, he did, he and a lot of other guys including the major commanding who is based and so forth. Some of them were sort of even if they hadn’t given their time were said, okay you’re finished, because now you’re going to an establishment in Gloucestershire where you’ll be training police, fire, in what today are called civil defence duties. And so, you know, my environment from a child and all the way through to the time I left home was, was semi military because all the other guys were like Dad, they all ex-army. AM: Right. RH: They were all ex-army and some of them I remember when we lived at Salisbury, I remember a couple of German women coming there to visit Mum and they were again were wives of soldiers and so forth. But, no and of course we had relatives in Cologne and at the time of the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, we had a telegram which came through the Swiss Red Cross, from Mums sister Gerda, in Cologne, asking if we were all okay. [laughs] AM: Were they all okay, did they ask to— RH: No. AM: Did your relatives not survive? RH: No, no they were, they lived, well as most Germans do in the cities, they live in an apartment block and the block was, was— AM: Blown up. RH: Hit, and Uncle Johan as he was, he died of phosphorus burns. And my aunt and my two cousins, saw one cousin, they were evacuated into, into central Germany. The other one, my, he was about a year or so younger than me and had been like you know like all the rest of them in the Hitler movement and so forth. And then when he was sixteen I think, he volunteered for part time duty on a flak battery, and then when he was seventeen he became a full-time member of the Luftwaffe [emphasis] on a flak battery. When I met him, you know after, we used to have a joke about it. [laughter] GR: That’s a, well at least you had the opportunity. AM: At least you never shot at me. RH: Never fired at me because you were in, on the Rhineland and in the Ruhr, yeah AM: Yeah, Happy Valley, the Ruhr. RH: Pardon? AM: Happy Valley, I’ve heard the Ruhr described as. RH: Yeah, yeah. But they’re all, my cousins and my aunt are not, they are all dead now so, no contact. GR: What I’ve just found amazing is, you’ve saying like yeah, during the Battle of Britain, and Bristol was being blitzed and all that, and a family in Germany sends a telegram [laughs] to a family in England saying are you okay? AM: Are you okay? RH: Yeah. GR: And that’s just like, that’s incredible. AM: Ordinary people in the war. GR: Yeah. AM: As opposed to the Nazis and all the rest of it. GR: But the fact is, so you are in Germany, and you’ve got Hitler, yeah, we’re going to invade Britain and do this, do that, but you can send a telegram. So, it goes from Germany oh yes, certainly a lot of it went through Switzerland through the Red Cross. AM: [inaudible as speaking at same time] RH: Yeah. GR: But you got the telegram in England, are you okay? Is everything alright? RH: Yeah, yeah. AM: What did you do then after the war then, after you’d been demobbed? RH: I became a civil servant. AM: Which bit? Which, which department? RH: The Home, Home office— AM: Oh. RH: Was the governing training department but again [coughs] it was, it was, it civil defence training I sort of followed on, I and my brother we were lucky having a father in it. [laughs] AM: Not what you know, but who you know. RH: Yeah, well yeah, well you had to go through selection board. AM: There was always full fair and open competition and all that, allegedly weren’t it. I’m just looking at this, the warrant on the wall here, which is? RH: The what? AM: I’m looking for the year, 1962. RH: That was commission— AM: You became a, well you tell me what it is? RH: Yeah, I was commissioned in the volunteer reserve training branch here. AM: Ah ha. RH: The Air Training Corps. AM: As a pilot officer. RH: Yeah. Eventually I was a flight lieutenant. AM: Yeah, crikey. Well I think on that note we’ll switch off. RH: Have you been recording all— Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Richard Harrison Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:07:06 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AHarrisonR151116 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Civilian Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Egypt Germany Great Britain Italy Italy--Sicily North Africa Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942 1943 1944 1965 Description An account of the resource Richard Harrison was born in Cologne in 1924 to a German mother and English father. His desire to be aircrew was thwarted initially by a failed medical, something he later surmises could be on account of his mother’s nationality. A member of the Air Raid Precautions, Home Guard and Air Training Corps, he was called up in 1942. He was posted to RAF Tempsford, base for Special Duty Squadrons 161 and 138, who dropped supplies and people for the resistance. In 1943 he was posted to Sicily in the RAF Regiment Squadron for anti-parachute troop duties and then to Italy. He successfully applied to join the Desert Air Force and had air gunner training at El Ballah in Egypt. He went to Palestine as a rear gunner on a Wellington for the Operational Training Unit, followed by the 1675 Heavy Conversion Unit in Egypt with B-24 . His first operation was in Italy. After VE Day, they transported supplies and troops. After the war, he worked as a civil servant in the Home Office. In 1962, he was commissioned as a pilot officer in the Air Training Corps and, eventually, became a flight lieutenant Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Annie Moody Gary Rushbrooke Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cathie Hewitt Sally Coulter Maureen Clarke Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive 138 Squadron 161 Squadron 70 Squadron air gunner aircrew B-24 bombing civil defence crewing up Heavy Conversion Unit Home Guard Operational Training Unit RAF Tempsford Resistance training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/462/8344/AAdamsT160616.1.mp3 f9bd5882560371415b633ba85a023cb1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adams, Tony Antony Hill Adams A H Adams T Adams Antony H Adams Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Adams, T Description An account of the resource One oral history interview with Tony Adams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document DG: OK we're all set to go, I'll just have to, this interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, my name is Donald Gould and I'm interviewing Tony Adams at his place in Lingfield, a suburb of Sydney. The interview is taking place on Thursday 16th June 2016. Can you tell me your name please Tony? AA: My name is Anthony Adams, I'm known as Tony Adams. DG: And how old are you Tony? AA: I'm ninety two. DG: What, where were you born? AA: I was born in Roseville one of the northside suburbs of Sydney. DG: And what did your parents do? AA: My father was an engineer and my mother was home duties mainly except during the Depression, she had to earn extra money and she did what they called Batik work, B,A,T,I,K it was dyeing clothes and so on. DG: A bit unusual in those, in those days batik? AA: Um. DG: Yeah, and where did you go to school? AA: At Roseville public school, and then after that I went to Sydney Grammar. DG: And what, what, how old were you when you left school? AA: I left school a few weeks after World War II began I was fifteen years of age. DG: And what did you do, after, after when you finished school, what did you do after that? AA: I studied accountancy, I went full time to a, a college, an accountancy college for one year and then I got a job as a junior clerk in a, in a company in the wholesale chemist area and I was there 'til I turned eighteen and then I went into the army, before, before the air force. DG: OK so you were, you were, in Sydney when the War broke out? AA: Yes. DG: And why did you, why did you, what prompted you to join the air force? AA: Well really two reasons, I'd heard all the stories of the first, first War and the terrible conditions and how soldiers, Australia diggers, had died and I was a very squeamish boy and I thought if I'm going to die I'm going to die quickly. DG: [Laughs]. AA: But I really didn't think I was going to die you didn't put your name down for that reason, a lot of my friends where I lived were going into the air force and sounded more exciting than being in the army or the navy, [chuckles]. DG: And where, where did you enlist? AA: Er, right here in Sydney at Willoughby actually. DG: And what, what training did you, did they give you? What did they select you to do? AA: Are we talking about the army or the navy? DG: Oh no, that would be the air force. AA: Oh well, after six months in the army I got my transfer to the R, double A, F and after initial training, rookie training, I was selected to be, to wireless training, radio training and I spent six months at Parkes in New South Wales doing that and having completed that course I then was sent to Port Pirie in South Australia for six weeks doing flying training there, air gunnery flying training and at that stage I got my wing so I was ready to, I graduated. DG: You mentioned, you mentioned the army, how did you, how did you come to be in the army first? AA: Well it was conscription in those days in Australia. DG: Ah right. AA: And you had to, you had to, as soon as you turned eighteen, you had to go into the service, aircrew R, double A, F aircrew you were all volunteers, but anyway it was I was called up into the Army within a few weeks of turning eighteen. DG: And you asked to go to the air force and you did? AA: I, I previously put my name down for the air force and, but there was a waiting list in a way and the Army grabbed me before the air force did. DG: And what, you'd completed that training and when did you go overseas? AA: Um, June 1943, 15th of June actually, I'm pretty good on dates [laughs] and that was by ship, an American troop ship across the Pacific to San Francisco, I was a sergeant then and then they transferred us onto a train at San Francisco, a troop train and a very, a very palatial troop train too 'cause we had a porter on each carriage who made up our beds. DG: Oh boy. AA: And shone our shoes even though we hardly got out of the train [chuckles] but anyway we went right across the other side of the US to a huge US army camp which was really for embarkation of American troops. DG: Where was that? AA: And it was. DG: Can you remember where it? AA: It was called Taunton, Massachusetts, nearest, near Providence and not far from Boston. DG: Right. And then were you, you were only there a short time before you? AA: About three or four weeks I think, yes. DG: Right. And then, and then you embarked to Britain? AA: Yes on the Queen Mary. The Queen Mary and the Queen Elizabeth were going backwards and forwards to Scotland to the Clyde mainly with American troops building up prior to D-Day it was the year before though but the ship I went on, the voyage I went on as it happens I found out was the one when they carried the most number of troops onboard, there was about nearly fifteen thousand troops and a thousand crew. DG: Oh crikey. And so you'd have been in Britain around by June, July, August or something in '43? AA: 1st of August. DG: 1st of August? AA: Bank holiday. [Laughter]. DG: Right and when you got to Britain what did, where did they, where did they send you for further training? AA: [Unclear] We were in a contingent of three hundred Australia and New Zealand airmen, we picked up the New Zealand airmen over Auckland on the way over across the Pacific and we landed in Scotland in the Clyde, and by train down to Brighton Sussex, south of England and the Australian and New Zealand air force had taken over the two big hotels in Brighton, the Grand and the Metropole, and we, they'd ripped the luxury hotels to bits and crammed us in there. DG: And how long, how long were you there? AA: Um, I think only perhaps six weeks, four or six weeks or something. DG: Right, and what, what happened to you after that? AA: I and about nineteen others Australians, who had to be, were going to be wireless operators in Bomber Command, were sent to do a further course flying on Avro Anson's at a place called West Freugh, F,R,E,U,G,H near Stranraer Scotland on the west coast and we'd do further training there, 'cause when we arrived there in England they said 'oh the radios that you used in Australia, trained on in Australia, no we use the Marconi sets here you've got to have further training'. DG: Oh right. AA: So we used to fly out from there over Northern Ireland and down to, down to Wales, England and I think we were there for perhaps two, perhaps two to three months. DG: And then what happened to you after? AA: Well then. DG: You did that further training? AA: We passed all the tests there and we were then sent, or some of us, we were spread out to different places to what they called an operational training unit, OTU, and the one I was sent to and I think only one other of that course of twenty went to the same OTU which was in Bedfordshire. DG: Which one of that? What number was that? AA: It was called Wing, the village of Wing but nothing to do with air force. DG: Right yeah. AA: And we flew from the satellites round there called Little Horwood, H,O, R W, double O, D. And it was interesting that Little Horwood was about a twenty minute bike ride from Bletchley or Bletchley Park. DG: Oh golly. AA: And I knew a girl who worked at Bletchley Park I met her there and she was my girlfriend for the duration of the war while I was there. DG: Did you know anything about Bletchley Park and what was going on over there? AA: We had no idea what went on we knew there was a lot of, we saw in the local pob, pub, The Park Hotel at Bletchley, we'd see all these officers navy officers, air force and army officers but in those days you really didn't make any enquiries. DG: Were you aware that it was something pretty Top Secret or was it just another, another? AA: Yes, we believed it was Secret. DG: Yes, yes. And then when did you go to a squadron after that? AA: At that stage, that is where you formed up in your crew. DG: Right. AA: And through a process within a day you arrived there, the I think it was the CO came and gathered us all together and said, and there were about twenty pilots, twenty wireless operators, twenty navigators, twenty gunners, 'right oh you fellas you've got about three or four days to form yourselves up into a crew' and I did see a fella that I, I didn't know him except of course there were Canadians, New Zealanders, English men, Australians, I didn't know anybody except the fella that I went with and I looked and then after a day I saw a fella called John Faile[?] who was a year or two years ahead of me at Sydney Grammar. And I went, and he was a pilot, and I went up to him, 'Johnny do you remember me?' and he said 'oh yes Sydney Grammar?' and he said 'yeah you were the opening bowler in the third eleven weren't you?' [laughter] and he was the star from the first eleven but I said ' have you got a wireless op?' and he said 'look', he said, 'I was only just been yesterday talking to an English fellow and he, ah I've asked him to be my wireless op and he was somebody else [unclear] so I asked him, he said he'd come back to me later on today, I think so' he said 'I'd love to have you but I' said 'I'm but I'm perhaps committed to have this chap'. And anyway he did come back to me later and said McKay[?] the other fella is going to come with me, the English chap, luckily I didn't, it was luck there because a few weeks after D-Day that crew was shot down and all killed. DG: Oh. AA: Over France. But nobody else would ask me it was mainly the pilots were going round asking people and I was a bit of a wallflower [DG laughs] one Australian pilot did say, came to me and approached me, would I be interested and and I said 'yes, I'm not crewed up, thank you very much, would love to be in your crew' all our unit was Australian and quickly in talking to each other we said you know, 'oh where do you live?' he lived in Sydney and I lived in Sydney and 'where do you live Wal?' and he said 'Greenfield' and 'where do you live Tony?' 'Roseville', the next suburb but I didn't know him and we then formed up into a crew and in due course we acquired another gunner and a, and a flight engineer but we were a crew of four Australians and three English men. DG: And presumably the flight engineer would have been English? AA: Yes, the flight engineer was English. DG: Yeah, yeah. AA: And the two gunners were English. DG: Oh right. And were you sent to a squadron after that once you paired up? AA: No the next step was because we were going to be on four engine bombers mainly for the pilot at the OTU we were flying Wellington bombers, a twin engine bomber, so we had to do, went to a place called Stradishall, which was called a conversion unit, it was mainly for the pilots to learn to fly a four engine as against a twin engine bomber, and at that stage we then got an extra gunner, a mid upper gunner, and a flight engineer. DG: And ah did you, what happened after that, after that conversion? AA: Well we're ready to go to a squadron then. DG: Right. AA: But prior to that they went in training in case we got shot down, we went to a, what is called I think, a battle course, that was for a couple of weeks where we were instructed on all the procedures if we did get shot down how to get back, how to evade capture and things like that. DG: Right. AA: And we did exercises in relation to that. DG: And what happened after, once you'd finished that? AA: When we finished that, and that was at a place called Methwold, we were ready to go to a squadron and we went from there to Lakenheath which was an RAF establishment it was pre-war I think and we were there within a few days of arriving there we did our first operation. DG: Can you remember what, when that would have been that you, you first joined the squadron? AA: Ah. DG: Any idea when that would have been? AA: Yeah it was May 1944. DG: Right. So that's [unclear] nearly a year after you'd got to the UK. AA: Yeah that's right. DG: A little time after. AA: Yes. DG: And what was the, what was the daily life like at the base? Just your daily routines and life in general how did you find that? AA: Well, they would post up if you were flying on operations that night or later that day they'd post up in the operations room all the crews and that were to fly at that time, all their names and give you the instructions as to the time of briefings, the navigator and the pilots used to have a briefing first and then the rest of the crew would come in for an hour or two later to the main briefing and so that was what happened, they told you the time the meals were going to be, the time of the transport to your aircraft, because of course there were aircraft dispersed right round the aerodrome and your aircraft, you were allocated an aircraft, ours happened to be C Charlie and er [unclear] what [unclear] make of aircraft or sometimes they'd switch them around but anyway ours was C Charlie, we had our own ground crew at the dispersal and I think there were five in the ground crew crew and we'd be transported out there during the day if it was going to be a night operation we'd be going out and checking our equipment that sort of thing. DG: And what, and what would happen then if you, if you were flying that night , after you'd checked the aircraft out and what would happen? Presumably you'd be going on a mission after your evening meal or would you or? AA: Yes, yes but later on we did more daylight operations than than night operations. That was our, because that was our squadron. Now I haven't told you the aircraft we were then flying when we first joined the squadron was Stirlings. DG: Right. AA: And the Stirlings at this stage of the War had been taken off the bombing of German targets. The Lancasters and the Halifaxes were the ones being used for that sort of operations, the Stirlings couldn't get the height and didn't have the speed so the, we were what, we were called a Special Duties Squadron, and as soon as we got there it was realised, we realised, were told [emphatic] it was very secret what we were doing. It was in all Bomber Command squadrons to a degree but ours was more secret [laughs]. DG: Right. AA: And because the operations we were doing that were so secret was supplying the French Resistance movement with supplies. DG: Ah right. AA: And we weren't allowed to keep a diary. DG: Um. AA: Actually our mail, outward mail, was censored I think, and so that was the sort of thing. So we were doing that sort of operation and, and dropping mines at the entrances of the ports there where they had the German, the German fleet, submarines and warships who were attacking the Atlantic convoys would try to keep them hulled into those ports. DG: You were dropping the supplies to the French Resistance, obviously that was in France? AA: Yes. DG: Have you any, do you know what parts of France that you were doing it? AA: Yes, we didn't do that many of them. DG: Um. AA: Erm, about in the area of Dijon. DG: Right. AA: I do remember one town called Digoin. Which was not far from Dijon, D, I, G, O, I, N. To, would you like me to go on and tell you a bit what the operation was [chuckles]. DG: Yes, certainly, yes. AA: Because they were rather, you know? DG: Yes, yes. AA: Um we had to find a clearing in the forest, we only flew on very bright moon light nights because we flew at very low altitude under the German radar. DG: You had all the co-ordinates and everything and you had to find that little spot? AA: Yes. DG: Yes. AA: And the navigator and the bomb aimer had to be, co-operate very much. The bomb aimer would lie down in his, in his part there and would map read with a torch and say, 'tell the navigator we are over this river' or [unclear] 'tell', and then when I said Degoinge I remember they would go to a small town and then be given, at a certain speed, in a certain direction, to find that clearing in the forest. Um, going out there OK you find the thing, the place, no bigger than a football field. DG: You're obviously at a fairly low altitude to be able to find them? AA: We were flying at five hundred feet. DG: Would that avoid radar at that height? AA: Yes. DG: Oh right, OK. AA: Five hundred feet, you'd perhaps go, anyway we had loaded in the bomb bay canisters of supplies. DG: What were they made of? AA: Well we were never told but it was arms, ammunition. DG: No, no but the canisters. What were the? AA: Oh metal and they had a parachute. DG: Oh right, OK, yeah yeah. AA: And the bomb aimer to had to identify that we were dropping at the right place, to the right people they had to flash to us on the torch the letter of the day, the agreed letter of the day in Morse Code and then they would then the French men, or French women too I guess ,would put out flares and we would do a, virtually a bombing run, probably at a thousand feet or lower and the canisters then would get released and float down, full moon, and they'd come out with horses and carts from under the trees and load these canisters onto their trucks and onto their carts and disappear back into, into the trees. DG: And how many canisters might you have? AA: Oh, I couldn't really tell you. DG: No, no that's absolutely, that doesn't matter. AA: Yes. DG: And what, and um, did you ever meet with any resistance when you were doing those? Any flak or fighters or did you get a pretty free run run having been flying in such clear weather? AA: Pretty, yes pretty free, I think it was entirely free as I can tell you about one occasion. DG: Um. AA: As as I said I was, I looked after the radio and before we took off we all checked our equipment and I'd go out my radio was working perfectly. Then, er we took off they had what they called a group broadcast, we were in Bomber Command's No3 group, there was a number of squadrons in that group most of them going and bombing German targets. But we had this different sort of operation and you had to, my job was, every half hour on the hour and half hour listen in to a group broadcast where instructions may be given, to some of us or all of us, such things as you're diverted to another aerodrome because there's fog over yours where you're going back to or all sorts of things. Um, especially for those on the bombing German targets the wind direction had been changed and things like that. But anyway, we'd been going a while we were probably over the coast of France by this stage and my radio went absolutely dead and I reported it to the skipper, I said 'my radio's out of action' and he said 'alright just let me know when it's fixed ', it wasn't something that would stop us proceeding on this operation and I was quite a good operator but I was hopeless at fixing things and my wife will bear you out, I've never fixed anything in my life [laughter] but anyway I fiddled around in those days radios had valves before transistors [laughs]. DG: Yes, yes. AA: And I was pushing and pulling and I couldn't get it to work and so I, somehow then the next half hour broadcast was coming up and I'm getting a bit frantic, I pushed it in and just as I pushed it in came, a message came through it started to work for the group cast, the message was for our aircraft, our call sign or one of them. DG: Oh dear. AA: You recognise your voice as it's called out, well you recognised your call sign just as clearly. DG: Yeah, yeah. AA: Um, this, the message was return to base. I said to Wal the Skipper, in the aircraft you didn't go on first names, or very rarely 'Wireless Operator to Pilot I've just received a message, return to base' and he said 'what's the trouble are all the Force going back?' 'I don't know, just me, just us 'he said 'are you sure?' so well I was a bit er, radio reception at five hundred feet is not that good. DG: No. AA: But I'm sure. He said ' Tony you're in trouble [chuckles] if you've got this wrong', and anyway he took my word for it so back we went and landed probably midnight or 1am, I can't remember and a British major who we sort of knew who co-ordinated these sort of operations on our base he came out to our aircraft and we said 'what's up major?' and he said 'well after you got took off and got to the other side we got, we got' I remember his words, 'we got word from the other side, a message from the other side, that the Frenchmen there had been captured and they had installed 3 [unclear] and 2 Bofor's guns awaiting your arrival'. DG: Oh right. And you might have gone into that if your radio hadn't come back on the line again? AA: I wouldn't have been talking to you now. DG: No. AA: If I hadn't got that message [unclear]. DG: Unbelievable, AA: My radio was. DG: Before, just getting backtracking a little bit, you mentioned the airfield you were at, I don't know whether I asked you your squadron number that you were in? AA: It was RAF Squadron 149. DG: RAF 149. And what field were you flying from at this stage? AA: Ah, it would have been Methwold. DG: OK, OK, and you did a number of these operations dropping? AA: Not very many. DG: Right. AA: Er, one of the first ones we did was with the CO, our pilot was second pilot on this occasion so he could learn the ropes a bit, I think we only did about six of them. DG: So you did those and dropping the mines. AA: Dropping the mines. DG: Did you have any interesting situations with those missions? AA: Well, no they er only one and this was after D-Day and we were dropping mines at the entrance to Bordeaux which is on the west coast of France, the river there Bordeaux's on is called the Gironde, G, I, R, O, N, D, E, Gironde, it has a very wide estuary or mouth and we had to drop the mines there for the entrance, and we did that again at low level because it was after D-Day we weren't allowed to cut across France. We had to, came from Methwold up near Cambridge, we went right down to Lands' End and then went down the west coast of France, dropped our mines and then had to go back the same way, not cutting across France at all and we're coming up the coast after we'd dropped our mines, suddenly I'm standing in what is called the astrodome which is a perspex bubble on top of a fuselage, where I'm, if I'm not having a radio duty I'm keeping a watch out for anything and suddenly I see fazer coming up towards us from a light machine gun and I understand it was a flagship. DG: Oh. AA: Anchored off the coast and I would swear that those bullets [unclear] were going for our rear turret, but we weren't hit at all. DG: And what was the reason for going, not going over France, going around after D-Day because of the hostilities was that? AA: Yes, that's right. DG: You wanted to keep out of the way? AA: The anti aircraft were all around so that's what we did. DG: Yes, yes. AA: And by this stage because we had to, I then started getting messages, radio messages on Morse Code that our, Methwold and round there was fog bound I think, or the weather anyway and they kept sending us a different message to divert to another aerodrome, and then they'd say 'no don't go to that one' but finally we landed a Coastal Command base in North Devon called Shivenor, or Chivenor, and sat there the night, rest of the night and went home the following day. DG: And after your operations what did you, there were some fellows who had problems with nerves and they were accused of having a lack of moral fibre. How did you, how did you feel about these fellows? AA: Well I, I never struck, all the time I was there I never knew anybody that, didn't hear anybody, I'd heard that some had sort of been just quietly removed. DG: Right. AA: I, I didn't have any direct contact with anybody like that. DG: And when you, how, how did you feel, how were your, how were your nerves, you knew you were going to fly a mission, how did you, how did you feel? AA: Um, usually it's not going to happen to me. DG: Right [laughter]. AA: And I must say the times we were flying the casualty rate was not as high as it had been, I can't say I'm a very brave person but it didn't, wasn't too upset. There was only, we haven't got on to the stage yet of when we, the Squadron converted over to Lancasters. DG: Right. AA: And we were then bombing German targets more. DG: Right. AA: Er, about three nights in a week, in one week, we had daylight, I think daylight, we had to go to a place called Honsberg in the Rhur Valley and, near Dusseldorf, and the anti aircraft fire was very bad [laughs] terrific. DG: Right. AA: And I saw aircraft shot down and so on and when I we went to briefing that day they looked up on the map on the big map of Europe on the wall it was Honsberg again, oh gosh and I think I was very, very touchy then that day, is this going to be my last flight? But generally speaking you just had a job to do it didn't, I wasn't terribly concerned. DG: How did you feel once you were in the air, did that? AA: Well you had your job to do and. DG: Did that change your mind? AA: I was fairly calm but if you saw, as we did on one occasion, an aircraft flying right alongside us, got anti aircraft fire in seconds it hit the wing and the blazing fuel from the wing spread backwards in seconds and the tail plane was alight and they circled away, we didn't see any parachutes, it would have crashed. That was a New Zealand squadron aircraft we, I found out in recent years. DG: So you were, you were dropping the supplies from the Stirlings? AA: Yes. DG: Right, and er then you went to Lancasters, you got Lancasters? AA: Yes. DG: And ah you mentioned that that mission, what other missions did you, did you fly in the Lancasters? This is after D-Day is it did you say? AA: Yes well we were still on Stirlings right through 'til September which was three months after D-Day. DG: September '44 yes? AA: September 1944. We were bombing in Stirlings we did some bombing raids on German targets [clears throat] Le Havre, the Canadians had the Germans troops surrounded in Le Havre and we were bombing the troops virtually, they the Germans had set up flying bomb bases or launching sites on the coast in France, lobbing them towards London and things.. DG: Oh yes. AA: And we were bombing those sites, I think that was the main things we were doing on the Stirlings besides and doing minor operations of St Malo and other other ports. DG: And what, what missions did you do in the Lancasters? AA: Well they were virtually, they were all bombing of industrial targets in, in Ruhr Valley, Cologne, Essen, Bonn [coughs] more in daylight than er [coughs], excuse me, than at night time actually. DG: Now when you were bombing, bombing these targets there would of course there would always have been civilians somewhere around, how did you, how did you feel when you were bombing these, that there were no doubt somewhere along the lines civilians were going to get killed. AA: I virtually never even thought about it. We were given a target. DG: Yeah. AA: I don't know if it ever really crossed my mind very much. Er, just as a quick example, when I, I mentioned that I was, my virtually first job after the, when I left school or did, started doing accountancy training was with a chartered accountant only for a few months, and he was an auditor, and I'd go with him to the various places, companies to be audited. One of them was called Babcock and Wilcocks, at Regent Park in Sydney, and I'd go out there, didn't have a clue really what I was doing but I had a green pen to tick things, and what was some three years later this was when we were on the Lancaster Squadron, Lancasters we went to briefing, it would have been in November 1944 some three years later. 'Gentlemen your target for tonight is the Babcock and Wilcocks works at Oberhausen [strong laughter] but we were given a target. DG: Yes. AA: Now our squadron or most of the squadrons in No3 Group Bomber Command at this stage were, usual targets were bombing synthetic oil plants. DG: Oh right yeah, yeah. AA: And so that's what we were doing right through to the very last one we did.. DG: How many missions did you complete? AA: Thirty six. DG: Thirty six. So you did your, did your [unclear]. AA: [Unclear]. DG: Was that classified as, at one stage I think there were certain, there were certain, certain targets that weren't considered as dangerous as the others so you had to complete more, more missions to complete your tour, was that had you completed a tour? AA: Yes. DG: Yes. AA: When we joined the squadron and were flying Stirlings [unclear] the standard was thirty. But then at some stage later, and I can't quite remember when, they said 'no you've got to do thirty five', and so eventually I did thirty five but one, I can't remember which one it was, we did what was called an air sea rescue mission, we went looking in the North Sea for RAF crews shot down during the night ditching. I think that may have been the one that we, they said 'oh you're near the coast' or something, I don't know and so they added on officially I did thirty six [laughs]. DG: Oh golly. And so then that pretty much, once you, that's pretty much the end of the War at that stage? AA: Er, we did our last operation on the 6th of December 1944, that's five, five months before the end of the War. DG: Right. AA: Er yes. DG: And did you, you've talked about a few things that happened, was there anything else any other particularly interesting things that you, that come to mind, that you might have been involved in? AA: No er, [pauses] no really it was, I didn't realise until recently, I was looking at my log book, you imagine RAF Bomber Command is flying out every night and the US Army Air Force were flying and bombing sometimes the same targets by day. DG: Right. AA; But on adding up in my log book we, on Lancasters, we only did six at night and about, I don't know, fifteen or twenty or something in daylight. DG: Right, right. AA: Yes. DG: And so what, when the, that was in November '44 you flew your last mission? AA: 6th of December. DG: Of December? AA: Celebrating the pilot's 27th birthday. DG: And what happened, what happened then, after you'd flown your last mission the War was still going on though? AA: Oh yes, yes. Well at this stage they had aircrew too many aircrew really and I and other Australians but not only other Australians the majority, the flight engineer also came with me to a non flying station up at the north of Scotland near Nairn, where they were, we had various tests, what are we going to do with these people next sort of thing. And so we had aptitude tests and so on and it was once thought that I might become a wireless operator on a Walrus amphibian plane based in Northern in France to fly out and rescue people who were shot down in the sea but that didn't eventuate. And then I was, er said 'you won't be required as aircrew you'll probably be an intelligence officer'. And then we were virtually on leave on and off and really we were then based back at Brighton and word came through 'all you Australians are going to get sent home'. So I think it was at the end of April, around about the 20th of April 1945 I was on the ship on the way home, and Anzac Day 1944 er we were somewhere been going a few days. DG: 45? AA; And Anzac Day and I've still got the menu, I was in the Officers' Mess in this troopship, the New Amsterdam, I've got the menu that Anzac Day. DG: Anzac Day 1945? AA: Yes. DG: On the, on the way home? Oh great. AA: And then 2 weeks later it was VE Day and we were still on the water on the way home. DG: Right. AA: And a week or two after that we arrived in Fremantle for just a day refuelling and then round to Sydney and. DG: What happened to you after the War? AA: Oh well I was discharged well actually I [unclear] to the service, others got the discharge, I was transferred to R, double A,F reserve so theoretically they could call me up at any time I think [laughter] but anyway we'll call it discharge, and that was of course the War was going on against Japan, atomic bombs were dropped and Japan surrendered and within two or three weeks of War against Japan ending I was discharged from the air force. DG: Right. AA: And quickly back to my accountancy studies, I was half way through, I finished those and then started working as a commercial accountant in various, various companies throughout my mostly in accounting jobs had about four different companies I think I worked for, three or four, some well known companies, mainly it was Grace Brothers, and the final one was Brambles where I ended up for the last ten years as company secretary until I retired on my 60th birthday in 1984. DG: And when, when and where, did you meet your wife, sometime after you came back? AA: Yes, that was, I was, I was down on the south coast over a long weekend, the October weekend down to a seaside resort called Austinmer down near Woolongong, and I was there with a few of my mates and she was there with a few of her girls at the same guest house and we met on the beach and I asked her if she'd come out with me after we, after we got back to Sydney and within six weeks we were engaged. DG: Right. AA: [laughs]. DG: And you're still married? Great. AA: Been married for sixty seven years. DG: Did you, how many children did you have? AA: A son and daughter. DG: Oh great,great. And after, after um after you got back from the War how were fellows that came back from Bomber Command treated, how did you feel you were being treated? AA: I think, I've heard a lot of stories where they said, you know, 'why were you over there, we were fighting it out here and the Japanese', I never heard a single thing [unclear] who come back from Vietnam being shunned and so on but er, I never got that impression they were, we were welcomed back and got a good job and which I think we had we were, we were, I don't know, I think we all well slotted into whatever we were doing before. DG: Yeah. AA: All my mates in the Bank, and they went back to the Bank, and. DG: Do you still keep in touch with some of the fellows from your time in Engl[and], your time in Bomber Command? AA: Er yes just a few. DG: Yes. AA: Just a few most of them have passed on really but. DG: Do you ever? AA: The navigator of our crew was Australian, he and I are the only two surviving members of the crew now. DG: You and your navigator? AA: Yeah. DG: Right. AA: Well I think that's er, that brings us pretty well up to date. Thanks very much for talking to me Tony I much appreciate it. Thank you. AA: Right. Cup of tea now? DG: Thank you. AA: Or coffee would you prefer? DG: Coffee but that's. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tony Adams Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Donald Gould Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-16 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:56:07 audio recording Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AAdamsT160616 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Description An account of the resource Tony Adams grew up in Australia and was studying accountancy when he was conscripted into the army at the age of 18. He later transferred to the Air Force, trained as a wireless operator and was sent overseas to the UK in June 1943. After training, he flew 36 operations in Stirlings and Lancasters with 149 Squadron stationed at RAF Methwold. After the war, he completed his accountancy training before retiring as Company Secretary for Brambles in 1984. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Dawn Studd Maureen Clarke Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Royal Australian Air Force Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Australia France Germany Great Britain England--Norfolk United States Germany--Ruhr (Region) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943 1944 1945 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. 149 Squadron 3 Group air sea rescue aircrew Anson bombing crewing up Lancaster mine laying RAF Lakenheath RAF Methwold RAF West Freugh Resistance Special Operations Executive Stirling training wireless operator https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/492/8378/AClarkRR160331.2.mp3 69c4781f76297eb3a85b75b194dd000a https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/492/8378/PClarkRR1601.1.jpg cfc262183491ab3732116457df06de8d https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/492/8378/PClarkRR1602.1.jpg 926bef149a72ca9f608b070e920d51b4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Clarke, Royston R Clarke Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Clark, RR Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Royston Clarke (b. 1922). He flew operations as wireless operator with 101 Squadron. The collection has been licenced to the IBCC Digital Archive by Diana and Royston Clarke and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document (DC) My husband’s name is Robert Royston Clarke and he joined the war in 1940 – (RC) Yeah (DC) - and he did all the training and took up flying on Lancasters, eventually he was shot down over Germany. So you can carry on, yeah? (MJ) Yep. (RC) I was shot down over, over Germany. What, what else did I do? (DC) You, you were shot down over Berlin, weren’t you? (RC) I was shot down over Berlin (DC) And you came down by parachute. (RC) Yes, yes – (DC) You thought you were, you thought, you thought you were too light to come down by parachute – (RC) I did. (DC) You thought you were going up – (RC) That’s exactly – (DC) And you said as you looked up it was just like going up to heaven. And – (RC) Yeah (DC) And you eventually came down to the ground, alright? (RC) Yes. (DC) Can you carry on from there? (RC) When I, when I bailed out of the parachute and from being shot up by the Germans. When I I was parachuting out, I looked up and it looked as if I was coming down - (DC) [Unclear] (RC) Coming out the parachute coming down it wasn’t very happy – (DC) And what happened when you got down? (RC) What did? (DC) That the – all these people grabbed you and took you down an air raid shelter, didn’t they? (RC) Oh yeah. Hmm, they did. (DC) And they going to cut your limbs, they wanted your clothes. They were arguing who was going to have your clothes. (RC) Yeah. (DC) And they were going to cut all your limbs off and throw you in the fire. (RC) They was going to cut me fingers, me feet off, me toes. Silly bastards. (DC) [Unclear] (RC) Silly blighters. (DC) You got your Mae West on, hadn’t you? (RC) Yes. (DC) And it had a light on it that flashed. (RC) Yes. (DC) And as it flashed it, it flashed all of a sudden for no reason and the, the Germans thought it was a pistol, didn’t they? (RC) Yes they did. (DC) And they shouted in the language, ‘Pistol. Pistol’ and they all shot back, and you ran out up the steps as fast as you could and you got under a train in the railway station. (RC) Yeah. (DC) Alright? (RC) Yeah, this, when they were trying –and what was it? Shouting ‘Pistol, pistol’. (AC) The people in the air raid shelter that had got you and they were going to throw you in the fire. Didn’t - weren’t they? (RC) Yes, because the - yeah. (DC) You got out, under the train, and as you, you got underneath the train, and as you were going along, you were getting cold and wet from the steam and all that sort of thing, and you got up and gradually they pulled in at a station and you sneaked in and you got on top of a carriage, didn’t you? (RC) That’s right. (DC) A freight carriage. (RC) Yes. (DC) And then as you started off, you were going along and along, and you didn’t realise at the time but you were laying on top of poles, weren’t you? Metal poles. (RC) That’s right. (DC) And it was chuntering along, you were gradually going down and down in these tru -poles. So you had to get out of that and lay across them the other way. And then, eventually, you, you were on the run a little bit, weren’t you? But eventually you were captured. (RC) Yeah. The Germans didn’t like me. (MJ) Why didn’t they like you? (RC) [Chuckle]. The Germans and I were not very good friends during the war. (DC) What he did – he, he got a bicycle and – (RC) I did. (DC) Was [unclear] before he was captured, and he was going along and then he saw the troops coming towards him, and he went round the island the wrong way and obviously, they stopped him and found out – he said he was French. And the chap he spoke to him in French and it was the Vichy, Vichy French. (RC) Yeah. (DC) And it was the Vichy French uniforms, and they captured him then and you were put in prison after that, weren’t you? (RC) They didn’t like me. (DC) You were interviewed by a German officer. Wanted to know all the details of his camp – (RC) Yes. (DC) His crew and different things and you wouldn’t tell them anything. And they was - they got guards who come marching in and he said, ‘You will be shot’, and, and he wouldn’t tell them anything. He said, ‘I should tell you nothing’, he said, ‘You shoot me now -‘ (RC) Yeah. (DC) He kept trying to get information out of you, didn’t he? (RC) Yeah. (DC) But you wouldn’t give any of the information and – (RC) They kept asking me questions about this, and I said, ‘Actually I can’t say anything about it’. He - they said, ‘So we’ll shoot ya’. He said, ’If you don’t –‘ (DC) You said, you said, ‘If you were in my place, would you say anything?’ He said, ‘I’m not in your place’. And he says, ‘So we are going to shoot ya’. And then - (RC) Yeah. (DC) And then he marched the guards out. He shook his hand, and he says, ‘You are a good solider’. And gave you a cigarette and a drink. (RC) He did indeed, yes. (DC) That was one little bit, wasn’t it? (RC) Yeah. To, to have a cigarette off a bloody German, and the German didn’t like me at all. (DC) Another incident he was – he, he escaped once or twice but he got a friend. He was on his own most of the time, but he’d got a friend at this point and they were in Poland – (RC) Yeah. (DC) And he joined up with the Polish Resistance. (RC) That’s right. (DC) And he, he lived at a farm with a family and there was a young girl there. I can’t think of her name now – and he – and they were in love, and they were a couple at the time, and then the Germans – something happened. They’d done something and the Germans came round looking for the Polish Resistance, and this girl, they got her and he was shouting, ‘No, no, she’s on the farm, working’, ‘cause they made out they were out working on the farm. And they just shot her in front of him. Lynkska was her name, wasn’t it? (RC) Yeah, Lynkska. (DC) And they just shot her in front of him, and the lady from the farm she came out and slapped him round the face and said, ‘Come on, get on with this work. We’ve got so much to do’. (RC) Yeah. (DC) And he got, he got away from that, but then you were escaping again and this particular time it was up through Lithuania, Latvia was it? (RC) Yeah. (DC) And – (RC) Lithuania, Latvia yeah. (DC) And he – there was some people hanging. They were hanging them. I don’t know whether you know this story? With the Latvians, Lithuanians – have you followed it a bit? He, he saw all these people and they were just hanging from poles and trees in the street where the Germans had, had hung them ‘cause they wouldn’t go over to the German side. That was that and before he went into Latvia and Lithuania, you were in with Poland there was all the people on the streets just little kids starving and dying on the streets and all that. (RC) It was awful. Awful. (DC) And then the – around about the same time he was going along, escaping, and there was this cattle wagon train and – no, it wasn’t, it was a building this particular time – a building. (RC) Yep. (DC) And there were loads of people in it and they were shouting, ‘Mia water, mia water’ or something like that. I don’t know how they say it. ‘Mia sand’. (RC) Yeah. (DC) And they wanted water to drink and sand to put on the floor where they’d have to go to the toilet to cover all that up. And they were people that they were taking by train to the, the concentration camps. It was terrible. Then - (RC) To the concentration camps. (DC) Then you got so far up – I’m going, I’m getting mixed up with the different stories actually, but they are all stories. He was in Poland and with the Polish Resistance, they wanted to – they heard that [sigh] Hitler was coming along on the train, so he went underneath the bridge and set a explosive to blow his train up. And as it happened, the troop train came along first and they blew the troop train, train up and Hitler got away with it, otherwise you probably wouldn’t be here now if they had known it was you? [laugh]. (RC) No, I had, I had a bloody rough time, but the fact is that I could speak a good language and I – (DC) Actually he could speak fluent German. (RC) Yeah. (DC) That’ll do for now, won’t it? [Restart of recording] (RC) I had a - I didn’t have a very good war, but I did – I – (DC) What made you go into the RAF? You wanted to fly was because you were in Coventry the night it was bombed, weren’t you? (RC) That’s right, yes. (DC) With a friend. (RC) Yeah. (DC) And straight away you said, ‘I’m not going in the Navy, I’m going in Bomber Command’. (RC) Yes. (DC) And you and your friend, you got a little baby out. You thought it was alive, but by the time you got it out it was dead, wasn’t it? (RC) Yes. (DC) And that really upset you, and from then on that’s what you said you would do, go in Bomber Command. All right? (RC) I didn’t have – I mean wars are bad but I didn’t have a very good bloody war. I had a bastard of a war against – the Germans didn’t like me and I certainly didn’t like them and – (DC) Another incident, you were escaping with your friend at this time, weren’t you? And the, they, the Gestapo were onto you with the dogs. (RC) Yes. (DC) So you went into the – (RC) Bloody Gestapo. (DC) the river. And you went into the river, didn’t you? (RC) Yes, I did. (DC) To hide. And you went in and then you went, kept under the water, went up the bank so the dogs couldn’t scent - do your scent. And they never did find you, did they? (RC) No. (DC) They kept shooting in the water, but you were up the river more because you’d got up further and under the bank, and the dogs couldn’t scent you ‘cause - (RC) That’s right (DC) ‘cause you lost your scent in the water. (RC) It was awful bloody water. (DC) And then eventually you, you swam the Rhine, didn’t you? (RC) Swam the Rhine, yeah. (DC) With your friend – (RC) Swam the Rhine, yeah. (DC) And he said, this friend came from Poland, he said, ‘I can’t swim. I can’t swim –‘ so Roy said, ‘You can’t swim?’ And you come from Hull?’ So he had to have him on his chest, didn’t you? (RC) Yeah. (DC) And you swam on your back - (RC) On me back. (DC) To get him across. (RC) On me back. (DC) And he said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I can’t cope any more’. He said, ‘I can’t get you across’.’ He said. ‘It’s so bad swimming, so hard swimming’, and he said, ‘Oh, don’t leave me. Don’t leave me’. So he had another go, and they finally got across, and got the other side of the river and it was the wide part of the river. (RC) Yeah. (DC) So, that was a good thing. The only thing is you saw him after the war, didn’t you? (RC) Yes. (DC) Then you lost touch and when we went to find him, he’d passed away, hadn’t he? Syd. (RC) Yeah. (DC) Yeah. (RC) I had a – (DC) It’s sad. (RC) I didn’t have – (DC) Another time there was a – this is towards the end of the - he, he, they escaped off of a forced march, and I don’t know whether it was the main one, I really don’t know, but they escaped off a forced march. And then they went into this farm to stay for the night, ‘cause they were so cold, and there was three Germans there and they got the two of you, didn’t they? (RC) Hmm. (DC) And they were tie – they were going to tie them against a cartwheels and bayonet them – (RC) Yeah. (DC) And so you, you let them get close to you, didn’t you? And when you shouted to Syd, he said, ‘Now!’ And Roy knocked his chap out and Pete – Syd knocked his person out and then you got the third one, didn’t you, and then you bayoneted them all. (RC) Yeah. (DC) Syd had got dysentery so he had one of the pair of trousers off them. (MJ) [Chuckles]. (RC) [Chuckles]. (DC) Then you carried on, didn’t you? And you were so cold and you didn’t know what to do, ‘cause Syd was almost dying, wasn’t he? (RC) He was. (DC) And – (RC) Syd Caldwell. (DC) So – (RC) He was - he almost died. Sad. (DC) You were some vehicles, didn’t you? (RC) Yes. (DC) And you stopped, you left Syd for a while to recover a bit, he couldn’t get anywhere, could he really? And you went off to see if you could see who it was and it was the 11th Army Division was there. (RC) Yeah, 11th Army. (DC) From Lincoln. (RC) Yeah. The Lincoln - (DC) And you went up and put your hands up and they – you know – a bit dubious of you, weren’t they? But once they realised you were an escaped prisoner – (RC) Yeah. (DC) They made such a fuss. Got him warmed up, hot drinks, got – they went and got Syd in – (RC) Yes. (DC) And you travelled with them for so long, didn’t you? (RC) Yes, I did. (DC) And he was actually fighting with them as they were travelling. Roy was, but they wouldn’t let Syd, would they ‘cause he wasn’t too well and you, he was shooting at them and then all of a sudden a bullet came straight past his ear and just missed you, didn’t it? And it - oh it got the officer, didn’t it? (RC) It did. (DC) Yes. (RC) It went whizzing by me. (DC) Yeah, got the officer, killed the officer. (RC) The bullet went right by my ear, which I – (DC) And you sort of fell on him to make out it got you as well, didn’t you? (RC) Yeah, it killed the officer, [indistinct]. (DC) And he’s going round, going to the houses, ‘cause it was a village and they were trying to clear it out. And he went to this one, one vill – house and an old lady came and she was crying, and she said, ‘My husband is tort’, meaning dead – (RC) Yeah. (DC) And Roy went got her some corned beef and bread that they’d made – (RC) Yes. (DC) Off the army lads and she was so grateful, wasn’t she? So it wasn’t all wicked. Were you? [Chuckle] (RC) [Unclear] My mother’s tort is died. Got killed. (DC) Yeah. (RC) [Unclear] (DC) And then you got back to Belgium – (RC) Yeah. (DC) And you were flown home in a Lancaster, weren’t you? Yeah. (RC) Yeah. (DC) From there. But so much else happened in between, didn’t it? (RC) Everything – (DC) It was – (RC) Everything happens in war, doesn’t it. (DC) He was, Syd was a little bit impatient, I think, at times. (RC) Yes he was. (DC) And you couldn’t be impatient. And he, you were going and he said, ‘No, come on. Let’s go’ They’d come in to these all these soldiers and they were all resting. I think they, were they Hitler Youth those? (RC) Was they what? (DC) Hitler Youth? (RC) Hitler Youth. Yes, they were. (DC) When they put the guns up – (RC) Hitler Youth. That’s what they were. (DC) They were all resting and in the middle, they’d stacked all the guns up, like this. And Roy went in and talked in Germany, telling them off saying they shouldn’t be messing about like that and all this, and he said, ‘What about these guns here?’ You weren’t sure how to use them, were you? (RC) No. (DC) So he got one of them to show him how to use it and he went round the lot and shot the lot. (RC) Yeah, they showed me how to use the gun, which I could use the gun. And I said, ‘Well, stay still. Stay still’, and I shot the bloody – (DC) And another incident, they were on a forced march and there was chickens about the yard, so this lad come up to you, didn’t he and you said, ‘There’s some eggs under there’. And you said, ‘No, don’t touch them. They’ll have you if you take those’. (RC) Yeah. (DC) And the lad went away and, they, him and Syd grabbed them both. Oh, didn’t ya? But you gave this lad one but you had all the rest with your mates. (RC) Of course. (DC) [Laugh]. (RC) What’d ya expect? (DC) Another one was, they were still on the march and they’d grabbed a pig, him and Syd. (RC) [Chuckle] (DC) And you squealed like anything, and you hit it on the head and all sorts. Couldn’t kill it could you? A little pig. A baby pig. (RC) Yeah. A little pig. (DC) And it squealed and you shut it up in the finish anyway. And the farmer had told the Gestapo about this, and they’d got this pig all sorted out and under the potatoes. They’d got potatoes on top of it. And the Gestapo were going round smelling the pots to see if they could smell it, but they never did. Did they? (RC) No. (DC) [Laugh] (RC) No, no I had, I had a awful war. No wars are good. (DC) [Chuckle] (RC) But I had a bloody hard war. (DC) Another time you spoke, Syd was with you, wasn’t he, yes and you were, you went by this, I think it was a farmhouse, I can’t quite remember now, but these Germans were laying asleep very early morning, and one was a officer, and you put your foot on his chest, didn’t you? And he says : ‘Photo, photo’, to try and get a photo out to show you and it was a gun he got, hadn’t he, so you just shot him. (RC) Well I had to. (DC) He would have been shot. (RC) He made out he just taking – he said, ‘Photo’, making out to taking the photo and he took a gun out. I mean I’d got to shoot him. I mean it’s war, it’s war. War is war and you couldn’t have a photograph to shoot a bloke with you had a proper gun and I shot him which I had to do, but it was, it was just one of those things, and it was war, wasn’t it? (DC) Hmm. (RC) My last [indistinct] bloody shot down. (DC) But that that didn’t grieve you so much, did it? It was the fifty pound you’d left at the pub at Ludford Magna for your celebration. [Chuckle] He’s never got over that, have you? (RC) I haven’t. (DC) [Chuckle] (RC) I had fifty pound when I was escaping – (DC) Well it was all the crew put towards it, didn’t they? (RC) And left it at the pub. And fifty, and that was a lot of money then. It bloody is now. We lost it didn’t we? (DC) Eh, hmm. (RC) We had problems. (MJ) How’d you lose that then? (RC) Some thieving blighter. (DC) Sshh. [Both chuckle] (DC) You got shot down, so you lost it. (RC) Yeah. (DC) Yeah (RC) The Germans were using real bullets and they shot us down. Rotten sods. [All laugh] (DC) Arh dear. (RC) It was – for me, the war was a bit – wars are not good very good, are they? (MJ) No, they’re not very good. (DC) We – (RC) Eh? (DC) He suffered terribly with post, Post Traumatic Stress. (RC) Yes, (DC) And after the war he worked on the railways as an accounts clerk, and he would sit at the desk and you’d face the wall – bare, a sort of a wall and all of a sudden a Lancaster came through, straight at him, through this wall. And he went to the doctors and the doctor said, ‘Oh, take a couple of aspirin’. Well, you know, he just had to put up with it from then on and – (RC) Yeah. (DC) Then you had problems, didn’t you? He fell out of bed while trying to bail out of a plane a couple of times, didn’t you? And you were always restless, so the doctor sent you to see Mr Horner, the psychiatrist and he went through everything with him and he said, ‘You know, you shouldn’t be going through this’. He said, ‘You know, what about compensation.’ And, he got, Miss Drawner got him compensation for his stress. Well, well it’s a war, war thing - (RC) War – (DC) Monthly you get it don’t you. And through Mr Horner, he went into it seriously, ‘cause I - when we were first together he – when we first met - we were going – we – there was nothing to do when we were young, was there? So we sat in this pub and we went in there from work at six, half-past five and we sat in there all night, just the two of us. I had a drink, he had a drink. We never drank our drank, drink at all. We sat there all night, he just opened up and told me everything – more of less everything about the war. And he was saying how he suffered from this stress. Well throughout, you know, we got five children and I was saying, you know, to Miss Drawner, and I said, ‘The thing is –‘ I said : ‘There’s no way that a person can go through what he went through and not suffer stress’. And Mr Horner was writing it, all this down, and it’s since that incident that all this Post Traumatic Stress has come out through Mr Horner bringing it to light, isn’t it? (RC) Hmm. (DC) That’s how it’s all come about. Post-Traumatic Stress - (RC) Yes. (DC) ‘Cause you never heard of it before, did you? (RC) Never heard of it, no. (DC) You know and he did a good job. And that was in the, about the mid-80s I think. Mid 80s it would have been. (RC) Hmm. (DC) Yeah. (RC) What was that Post Traum- [indistinct] – (DC) When you couldn’t sleep and used to shout out at night, ‘The Germans are coming’. And – (RC) Oh yeah. (DC) And things like that and you bailed out of bed to get out of your plane and that sort of thing. (RC) Post Traumatic – (DC) You used to do it often. (RC) Hmm. (DC) That was a bad time, wasn’t it? (DC) Hmm. (RC) Dreaming about the Germans and jumping out of bed, making out – thinking I was shot down when I was in bed. And I was thinking I was shot down and I bail out of bed, and I had a horrible life through that flying. Still here I is. (DC) [Chuckle] (RC) And there is – oh – and we love each other, don’t we? (DC) Course we do. (RC) And we got a good friend here. [Indistinct] (DC) There were coming round ready to land at Ludford Magna, and all of a sudden, they had a German that had followed them back and was shooting. You’d managed to get your wheels didn’t it, and you swivelled round on the on the runway and as they was shooting at the plane. They - a bullet went into the wall of, is it the White Hart opposite? (RC) Oh yes. (DC) Opposite it, isn’t it? And they, but they’ve recently patched it up in the last few years. But the hole was in the wall the wall for ages. And then the, was it - were they WAAFs that shot it down? WAAFs? They shot the plane down at the – (RC) The WAAFs. The WAAFs did. (DC) Yeah and they shot it down, and they were buried in Ludford Cemetery, but I think it’s been – they’ve been moved because we looked, didn’t we? A few years ago and there was nothing there, was there? So, that was another thing. You got away light there, didn’t you? (RC) I always got – I always got away bloody light. (DC) [Chuckle] (RC) The Germans didn’t like me. I didn’t like them and whatever I did, I always got away lightly. (DC) What when – when you were escaping that time and they said you were the person they were looking for. (RC) Yeah. (DC) Yeah, you could speak your German, couldn’t ya? What did- what did they say to ya? (RC) They said [chuckle], he said [indistinct], what’d he say to me? (DC) ‘You dis Englander?’ (RC) [Indistinct] ‘Englander’ I said, ‘Englander? Nien. Ich bein Deutsche. Ich bein Deutsche’. I had to make out I was bloody German. (DC) You said you were an officer, didn’t you? (RC) Yeah. (DC) But you’d been wounded. (RC) Yeah. And I had a bloody hard life. Yeah. I had to speak English and German at the same bloody time – (DC) And previously you’d had a crash in a Wellington bomber in training and you had a - not through the crash, you’d had also been shot up and you’d had a piece of shrapnel go in your leg – (RC) Yeah. (DC) And it had left a bad scar. So you showed them that where you’d been injured, didn’t you? (RC) Yeah. (DC) And they believed you then, didn’t they? (RC) Yeah. (DC) They you were a off – a German officer had been injured. (RC) I had a - I had a very, very hard war. And I had, had to make out I was a bloody German officer when I was killing as many Germans as I could. ‘Ich bien Officer. Yah. Deutschlander’. And then they [chuckle] I had to make so many – bloody hard –making out I was a German officer. It was a hard world, wasn’t it chook? (DC) It was. Yes. (RC) Yeah, but here I is. Here is oh [indistinct] [chuckle]. (MJ) How did you learn German? (RC) Eh? (MJ) How did you learn German? (RC) I learnt German –I learnt German quite easy because when I knew what I was going to go through, I practiced German and I learnt German quite easy. I could speak it quite well, couldn’t I chook? (DC) You could talk it perfect. (RC) Eh? (DC) When we went on holiday to Morocco, a good few years ago, and he was talking to this Moroccan in German, and the Moroccan said to him, ‘You can talk good German but rubbish English’. [Laughter] (RC) Yeah, yeah. He said, he said, ‘Ich bien Englander’. And they said, ‘Englander?’ I said, ‘Englander. Deutschlander’. So he said, ‘Oh yeah, Deutschlander. Deutschlander is you. Englander is not you. You speak Duetschlander because that’s your life. Englander, you don’t speak it very well’. [Laughter] I – he had a bloody job to – he says – (DC) Funny. (RC) He was a German and I could speak fluent German, and I I can always speak [indistinct] fluent English, but he said, ‘Do not, you do not speak English. Nein’. He said, ‘You be Englander. Nien. You be Deutschlander’. And I had to be English, German and I had to be every bugger. I had a bloody hard life, but I I enjoyed it. I got over the war. Just about. (DC) [Chuckle] (RC) I got a bad – I got about mark here. Have I got a face - mark on my face? (DC) No, people don’t notice it now darling. (RC) No, they don’t. I do they - (DC) He had all his face smashed up in the – what the – can’t think of the plane now. When you had your plane crash in this country – (RC) Yeah. (DC) and your face was smashed, wasn’t it? (RC) We had a plane crash and my face got all smashed up. And I couldn’t – (DC) In the Wellington. (RC) In the Wellington, that’s right. And I could only see out one eye. One bloody eye, but I got over it, didn’t I? (DC) Hmm. (RC) I had a very, very hard war but nobody has an easy war, do they? (DC) No. (RC) But I did have a hard war ‘cause the Germans didn’t like me. I didn’t like them. And it made it a hard war, but I’m still alive. And I still got a nice wife, haven’t I? (DC) I don’t know, am I? Only you can decide that. [chuckle]. (RC) I had I had a hard war, but no war really is easy. (DC) No, there shouldn’t be such things as wars. It’s a terrible thing. (RC) No. They shouldn’t – (DC) You just make you wonder why there has to be wars. The way people think it’s – it’s just you know. Just impossible really. But everybody’s at war at the moment, aren’t they? (RC) Picture. You want to pick up don’t ya? (DC) [Unclear] (MJ) Yeah. (DC) I was only 5 when the war started, and I always remember my father standing at the front door watching what was going on, and we used to sometimes, we used to go down in the cellar for protection or under the strong kitchen table or in the air raid shelter. We lived in the country on the Tamworth Road, just outside Sutton Coldfield, and we didn’t see a lot of the war at all really. When the, when the aeroplanes used to go over, my mother never did know, but I was absolutely petrified of the planes, and I’d either run in the house or into the farm buildings. It wasn’t until later I, I remembered things going on and my father said to my mother, ‘Mother, these Coventry’s getting it tonight’. And he said, ‘They’re really getting it badly’, and then a bit later we had a big bomb drop, we had a big garden so it was way away a bit, but we had a big bomb drop at the top of our garden in the field and they came to get it out. They tried pumping it out with water, and all sorts and to my knowledge, that bomb is still there. They couldn’t get it out. Then, the next thing I remember going in to Birmingham and seeing all the houses bombed and all up Aston and all through Birmingham, and all bombed out. It was a terrible sight. (MJ) On behalf of the International Bomber Command, I would like to thank Warrant Officer Royston Clarke and Mrs Diane Clarke for their recording at their home near Lincolnshire on the date of the 31st March 2016 at 4 o clock. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Royston Clarke and Diane Clarke Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mick Jeffery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-31 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AClarkRR160331, PClarkRR1601, PClarkRR1602 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:33:37 audio recording Description An account of the resource Warrant Officer Robert Royston Clarke joined the Royal Air Force in 1940 and flew in Lancasters. He joined Bomber Command after seeing the bombing of Coventry. Robert tells about baling out and being manhandled by the local inhabitants, before escaping and hiding under a train. He was arrested by the Vichy French and tells of how he was then interviewed by a German Officer. He escaped on a couple of occasions, linking up with the Polish Resistance on one occasion and hiding from the Gestapo, who were searching for him with dogs. He tells of his experiences ‘on the run’. He then found himself with the 11th Army Division and was flown home from Belgium after the war. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Vivienne Tincombe Maureen Clarke Carolyn Emery Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940 1944-02-15 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain Poland England--Lincolnshire Germany--Berlin 101 Squadron animal bale out bombing childhood in wartime crash escaping evading Lancaster lynching RAF Ludford Magna Resistance shelter shot down Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/307/8757/PMooreWT1506.jpg ba450a2587f7d4bdd809b39eda3c5fa9 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/307/8757/AMooreWT160318.mp3 06f88d173f760d9f30a9e3038f1f9794 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Moore, Bill William Tait Moore William T Moore William Moore W T Moore W Moore Description An account of the resource Eight items. Three oral history interviews with William Tait "Bill" Moore (1924 - 2019, 1823072 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He served as a navigator with 138 Squadron. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-28 2016-03-18 2016-07-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Interview Agreement Form - Moore, WT, William Moore-03 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Moore, WT Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 18th of March 2016 and I’m meeting with Bill Moore who was an Observer with the RAF and he is accompanied by his friend Tony Boxall. And we’re going to talk about Bill’s life from the earliest days to the periods after the war. So, Bill, could you start by telling us about your early days? WM: Well, I was, I was born in a town called Dunoon in the West of Scotland in 1924 and I was, at that time, I was the eldest of three children, I became that, and then of course what happened? We moved house from a little single ended cottage and we moved in to a brand new council house. And of course we gradually became a family of five. I was the eldest of course, as I said, with — CB: Keep going. WM: With two sisters and two brothers. My, my father was a slater and plasterer, Builder, and my mother had been what later on in life people called them Land Army girls because she’d done that during the First World War and my father had been in the Royal Scots Fusiliers right through, right through the First World War. And later on he, he was, he was taken on ship board to India where they, they actually were the garrison at various towns for a, for a few years up to there, you know. Alright. And then, and then of course what happened was that he came back to Dunoon and met and married my mother and as I say he also then went back into the building trade, you know. That is the sort of life that people did, they were in the army and then back into Civvy Street and later on in life that’s exactly what happened to us. Now, I, I attended Dunoon Grammar School all the way though, Right from the infant class right through into, into High School and I enjoyed it. I was never a person who didn’t enjoy school and at the same time after school I worked in various sort of capacities like in butchers shops and deliveries and all these sort of things that, in those days, people had to do to help augment the family incomes. I left, I left school when I was thirteen. The reason why was because the incomes that they could draw at that time wasn’t sufficient to keep the family going and being the eldest one I was out of school, as I say, at thirteen and I [pause] I was employed. I was employed by people called the Richmond Park Laundry which is, or was at that time, the biggest laundry in Glasgow but which is now gone. Then what happened then was, was that the war clouds were coming and I joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps. The Air Defence Cadet Corps was the forerunner of the Air Training Corps. And of course to do that we had to go to Abbotsinch, which is now Glasgow Airport and that was where we, we got the feeling for the Royal Air Force. Also that was where I saw my first Wellington and we certainly fell in love with it because all the other aircraft that we had seen from there, there on for many years was all the old ones that had been scattered around the country. Then of course, when the, when the Air Training Corps started we changed over, we volunteered for that and on the, on the Tuesday night I joined up and signed up. I went back again on the Friday night and the Friday night I became a flight sergeant which was instant promotion. And the reason for that was, was that I had been in the Air Defence Cadet Corps. We er, what we did was we, we had courses run in the Dunoon Grammar School by teachers who had become officers in the Air Training Corps and one particular gentleman there — Mr D. J. McDermid was the one that I’d looked up to for many years through the Boys Brigade and other organisations like that. And also a Mr Oswald Brown. And Mr Oswald Brown was the mathematics teacher and of course he was the one who actually taught us the rudiments of navigation. And we did that until we were old enough to, to volunteer for the Royal Air Force. Now, during, during that time we sat the examinations and all the way up through till we were actually ready for the aircrew selection. When I was old enough I went to Edinburgh and I was on the selection course there. I come out with very high marks and I got my little silver badge and I then became a member of the Royal Air Force. We, we didn’t get a number but we had various facts and figures written down about what we were. Then of course you had to wait your turn until such times as, as they had space for you. Well that’s what they said. So you got called up and then of course you were VR. And we eventually went to London and, of course, with that of course that was ACRC and that was at Lord’s Cricket Ground along with many other people which was quite strange. I met one or two chaps that day from all over the country, Some of them that I was with for quite a long time and before we actually finished at ITW. From, from London of course we went to ITW and my ITW was Number 17 in Scarborough based at the [pause] now what was it? Based at one of the, one of the hotels in Scarborough. And likewise of course in Scarborough there was about five other different ITWs. My, my hotel that I eventually landed up with was the Adelphi Hotel which was right above the Italian Gardens in Scarborough itself. In the Italian Gardens there was all the swimming pool and all the little offices attached to the swimming pool and that is where we did all the navigation and training like that, in the actual [pause] actual course at Scarborough. The gymnastics, the PT and all that other stuff was held at Scarborough College which was a very good asset. We had our own swimming pool in the Italian Gardens so that was also very good for us. Most of our drill and disciplinary actions was taught on the esplanade in front of the Adelphi Hotel and above the Italian Gardens. We [pause] we had a small, a small flight, and a few days after we were beginning to settle down, we got quite a surprise and we had a group of Belgian boys came across and joined us. They joined us there and it was a very good experience because most of them had been through High School and their English was very good compared with our limit in French or whatever dialect they said that they spoke. But it was very good because we got a good background of the continent which most of us had never had. Well, on completing of the ITW course I was given a job which was a temporary thing, I became the rations officer and I used to deliver all the foodstuffs from the main offices in Scarborough to all the different ITWs and that lasted for a couple of weeks. It was very good to get a responsibility like that because you really had to make sure that everything was right on the button. Otherwise, the sergeants and people in charge of all the kitchens as you went around certainly were very tough on you. During, during that particular time we, we went round all, all the various ITWs in Scarborough and as a matter of courtesy we actually visited one after the other and they did the same to us. And then of course we used to always go on a journey, see all the different church parades, you know. And an aside to one thing was my great friend here — and Ernie Taylor his name, who later became a fighter pilot in Spitfires and Hurricanes and Mosquitos, and although we were in Scarborough at the same time and been on parades at the same time and did various other things we never actually met up and we didn’t meet up officially until I came here in nineteen eighty — [pause] I beg your pardon, in [pause] yeah, 1983, when I returned from Africa. But that’s a different story, I can come back to that one. When people had vacancies for us then we went to different places from Scarborough. Well the first place that I went to was to Scone, Scone in Scotland. Just outside of Perth, and that was where we were, we were flying on Tiger Moths. We did the course there And anybody who has ever been to Scone Airport always remember that they had a bump in the, in the runway and when you went down there you lost the horizon, then all of a sudden you were airborne, and if you missed the bump you were always in trouble. But that was it, it was a good thing to know. And the instructors there were mainly, mainly chaps who’d, who had served all over world with the Royal Air Force. A lot of them had been out in the desert, various ones, And they had been recalled for to train people like us. Especially at Scone near where we were. Well we, we actually graduated from there and in those days you said that you were a LAC, Leading Aircraftsman, Which was quite good, It meant that you got a few more shillings in your pocket but that was about all it was. Sometimes they didn’t even have time to issue the propeller to you, but before you knew where you were you were away doing something else. But anyway, what happened to us, I say us because there was a few from 17 ITW, we, we went to a place called Broughton-in-Furness. Now Broughton-in-Furness — that, that was a, like an escape course, or a commando course or whatever you wanted to call it but really and truly it was like an escape course and you were taught all the rudiments of, of the bush. Well, as a matter of fact being a country boy I quite excelled in that and I got the red lanyard again which I already had when I’d been at Scarborough which gave you a little bit of authority, but as soon as the parades were off you took the lanyard off and that was it. But the lanyard, lanyard was just to give you that bit of authority for parades etcetera, etcetera. From, from there we went to, to Manchester, to Heaton Park. Now, Heaton Park you were either billeted in the Nissen huts which was standard accommodation, about fourteen men to a hut, or you were lucky enough to be billeted outside in somebody’s back room, Or front room, And we enjoyed that for, for a couple of weeks. We were actually put in to a lady’s front room, Two of us, And that was a chap called Alec Kerr and myself, And Alec was one of the ones that, from Peterborough, that I had met on that first, first day in London. It seemed to be that we kept bobbing up wherever we were on, maybe because Kerr and Moore was near enough on the alphabetical list. But anyway we shared the room there and if we gave the lady a half a crown a week each she used to leave the window open so that there was no bother about coming home at night time. But that was, that was more or less just across the road or nearby to Heaton Park. We never took advantage of it, always made sure that we were in before midnight although you were supposed to be the same as the camp, in about half past ten, you know. Well once we got over that stage we were called up into the park and put into a Nissen hut, the same as everybody did, and then we did some more drill and discipline and listened to the Royal Air Force tunes that was drummed into you so that you’d know whatever was being sounded was what you did. And of course if the, if the tunes came up to a certain degree then you had to — whatever you were doing — you had to march to attention, and if you got caught not marching to attention when these tunes were being played you found yourself on KP or something else like that. I managed to avoid that so I was quite lucky. Maybe it’s because it was drummed into my head that you always smartened yourself up whenever these tunes were played. Anyway, we, we eventually got we didn’t really do a lot of, we had a lot of talks on various things but we didn’t do any stuff for examinations. But all of a, all of a sudden you began to, you began to assemble in to different groups, your name was put here and then was put there and it wasn’t alphabetical either and the next thing you knew that you were ABC or DEF or whatever else it was, and eventually these groups were how you were going to be posted away from, from Heaton Park. And with that at Heaton Park — Heaton Park I was, I was KL and KL and M was quite good for me, I didn’t know too much about it and neither did anybody else. But one day, one day we were fitted out with kit and we were told that we would probably go to Rhodesia, And everybody said, ‘Oh. We’re going to Rhodesia. Oh that’s — that’s a cushy number there. You go all the way in the boat and then you go to Cape Town and then you go on a train and you go all the way up to either Salisbury or Bulawayo.’ Well everybody thought oh this is, this is good, anyway , that was a special uniform you got for going to Rhodesia, it was different from those who went to South Africa. Anyway, what happened then was that we, we started assembling in these groups. So the groups one day were 12 o’clock noon, the bell went and we formed up and the next thing we were told, ‘Get your kit together. You’re off.’, ‘Oh. We’re off. Where are we going?’, ‘We’re not telling you where you’re going. You’re off.’ So we got all this kit and we went to Liverpool and [pause] a little memento here of a ship called the Andes, A N D E S, which was a brand new ship just before the war. That ship had come up the Clyde in to the Holy Loch in all its glory because it was supposed to be on the South American run. And it was a beautiful ship, all brand new, And we boarded this ship in Liverpool. And who was beside me? Alec Kerr. Oh, ‘Alec. How did we manage this?’, He said, ‘I don’t know.’ He says, ‘Just the names seemed to come up again and we’re here together.’ I said, ‘Oh good.’ So, anyway we went down to K deck, I thought it wasn’t bad, it was well down in the ship but being a new ship it was quite good. Anyway, we, we stayed there overnight. The ship didn’t move. And we had another fellow with us there and his name was Ted Weir, and Ted Weir was thirty three. Thirty three. And we were only leaving UK. So he said, ‘My God,’ he said, ‘my wife’s expecting a baby,’ and we said, ‘What? You’re an old man for having a baby.’ He said, ‘Yes. I’ve just got word.’ I said, ‘What are you going to do?’ He said, ‘I’m going to slip off tonight and go and see the baby. In case I never get another chance.’ I said, ‘Alright. Alright Ted. How are you going to do it?’ He said, ‘I’m going to go down the anchor [inaudible].’ I said, ‘Well if you don’t come back you’re in big trouble.’ Anyway, about 2 o’clock in the morning and he came back. We hadn’t moved. So Ted Weir, thirty three plus, had seen his baby, a little boy with ginger hair like him, so he was quite happy. But we never saw the baby, we never saw photographs but we were told plenty about him. So anyway around about mid-day the next day the Andes took off. So anyway away we go, away we go down the Mersey and around the top of Northern Ireland. We were sailing well and it was good weather, we went, ‘Oh this is a piece of cake. Nice cruise we’re on on a ship.’ So there we go. Judgement, you know. I said, ‘We’ve left. We’ve left Ireland now. We’re heading for the Bay of Biscay.’ Anyway, that night we were up on a deck and I said to, I said to Alec and Ted, I said, ‘This ship’s going the wrong way.’ And they said, ‘You and your Clyde navigation.’ I said, ‘Me and my Clyde navigation. We’re going the wrong way.’ So, in the morning we were back in Liverpool, right back where we left. Anyway, we wondered what was going to happen there, so we were told to keep our kit all close together and all the rest of it. Anyway, I looked across from where we were, out and I said to, I said to Alec, I said, ‘The 534.’ And Ted Weir said, ‘What’s the 534?’, I said, ‘I’m not telling you. You might be a spy,’ you know. He says, ‘Come on Bill. Tell me. What’s the 534?’, ‘Oh a 534’s got three funnels hasn’t it?’ He said, ‘Yes.’, ‘Well that’s the Queen Mary.’ [pause] So we, we were twelve hours later, we were on the Queen Mary and the next thing we knew we were heading west. So where did we go? We landed up in New York. We were only in New York about twenty four hours, a bit longer. We had a great crossing, everything was fine. And as I say we got in to New York and we had a bit of shore time which was unusual. We were given strict instructions that you would be in the chucky if, if you didn’t come back in time. So anyway they trusted us so off we went, came back, and we, we were taken to the train station as they call it there. And we were all put on these lovely trains with beds and everything, you know, so, oh this is ideal. Anyway, it was American trains and sometime, sometime the following morning we pulled out and we wondered where, where we were going. There was all sorts of bets on, we were going to Arizona, we’re going to this, we’re going to that. No, no, we didn’t go there. We went to Moncton, New Brunswick, in Canada. And that’s where we, where we started getting a bit of trouble because we, we didn’t have much uniform. Some of it, we’d changed some of the stuff, you know. Typical Air Force . You weren’t allowed this if you had that and things like that. Anyway, we walked around there and the saying up there was like a squaw and later on in life I used to call like a ‘Matabeleland nanny,’ you know. Anyway, we got up there and Moncton, Moncton, New Brunswick was the centre in Canada where, where people were sent all over Canada and sometimes down to the States etcetera, etcetera, you know, so once we get up there then we found out what we were actually going to do. Anyway, Alec Kerr and Ted Weir and myself, we were still together and, well it was more luck than judgement, and we didn’t do much there. As a matter of fact we learned, we learned all the names for Canadian names, American names for things. Pie a la mode for a sweet and this, that and the next thing. All the fancy things which we thought we might be getting to eat. Although the diet there was terrific compared to what we had in the UK, the UK diet was excellent. Plain Jane and no nonsense but when we got to, we got to New Brunswick we even got ice cream and things like that. Anyway, one day we, our names appeared on, on a notice board and we were deftly got different parades as people called it in the Air Force , you know. Now, when you join the Air Force you volunteer, butthat’s the last time you ever volunteer for anything, so by this time we were just told what we were going to do. So some people were down for pilots, some people for navigators, some people for wireless operators, all sorts of different things come up, you know, and then of course there was various other bits and pieces that came up, you know. Anyway, we went off in the train and about five, about five days later we got to Winnipeg. We changed trains in Winnipeg, all the way across to Canada to there. We’d actually been in one train and one bed and we used to get off and stretch our legs and get an hour or so while they put new coal and stuff on the, on the train and then we went back on and away we went to the next station. And we had quite a wee bit, and there was one, there was one time I was off and somebody says, ‘You’d better have a haircut’. I said, ‘Alright. I’ll have a haircut’. So I went in and typical me, you know, I went in and I said, ‘Can I have a haircut please?’, ‘Yes. How would you like it?’, ‘Oh I don’t want it, I don’t want it too short and I don’t want it long otherwise I’ll be in trouble’., ‘We’ll give you a Canadian one’., ‘Ok. Fine’. Anyway, I got settled back in the chair and the next thing I knew it cost me fifteen bucks because I went to sleep. I’m still a person who could go to sleep with just sitting, sitting around for a few minutes. Anyway, when I woke up, he says, ‘Yes. You agreed. Every time I told you what you wanted you nodded your head’. I said, ‘Oh. Thank you very much’. So I was fifteen bucks short. Anyway, that was alright. Well, eventually from from Winnipeg we went up to Manitoba. Dauphin, Manitoba. Right up, right up in the top of Manitoba itself, right up north, Dauphin and Paulson and various places like that. And we looked around for the town. It was a hamlet. Dauphin wasn’t too bad but Paulsen, I think it was twelve, twelve houses that was there, you know and we had, we had more people in the camp then there were civilians around us, you know. Anyway, that was quite good. We, we went training there and we did, we did the basics of gunnery there, and started off with the, we had 22s and we did a lot of clay pigeon shooting in the hangars because by this time there was six feet of snow outside, you know. And we didn’t, we didn’t go very far, but we got one or two flights in those Ansons, the early ones, so that wasn’t bad. Getting us accustomed to, to flying as they called it and then, and then of course what happened after that was that they began to tell us what we were going to do. Well some of the chaps, some of the chaps were down as pilots and they went off to another ‘drome nearby. Some of us took in navigation, and some, some took in wireless and gunnery. But what we did was we did the whole lot, we did POSB, you know. And that was, that was the, we all took the full course pilot — pilot, observer, navigator the whole thing, you know. We were beginning to find out what it was all about. It was very gentlemanly, there was civilian pilots and civilian instructors, things like that. All sort of chaps in their early thirties — early forties or thirties and they were our instructors. Anyway, about a few weeks later we were divided up again and this time it was a full, a full gunnery course that we did, everybody had to do that. We had a full gunnery course, and then we had a wireless course, and that kept us the whole time. Even the gunnery course kept us going the whole time. And you might, you might have, instead of maybe having five or six courses for gunnery or something like that they slackened down so you were beginning to realise what you were actually going to do. So what we did then, what we did then was we went across to the pilot’s school. They never told you whether you failed or otherwise. They would say we need seven pilots and that was seven pilots. The first seven in the list became pilots and the rest of us then went in for, for navigation and bomb aiming, and we still carried on with the wireless and we still carried on with the gunnery. Then of course we went up and the next thing, the next thing what we knew was we were concentrating more on navigation than we were anything else although we still carried on every now and again, keep our hand in at wireless, at wireless and gunnery. Well we actually graduated in each of these places and were passed on to different, different sections there and then we had a big change. We went over to Dauphin. Dauphin, Dauphin was quite, quite a town by their standards, there were shops in the village and places like that and we got quite friendly with the local people, and I got friendly with a couple who’d come out from Scotland many years ago. And they had a grown up family of a son who was already in the Air Force and a daughter and there was another girl who stayed with them and she was the fiancé of the son. Anyway, that’s another little story. Anyway, we were quite friendly with them and visited them when we could and had the usual, we had our Christmas lunch there for a start. We went to dances, we went to everything in our spare time, the usual sort of thing. Made ourself, we were told to mix which was very good. And then of course we went up through and you actually, you actually graduated or you failed. If you didn’t graduate and you failed then you were sent to a straight gunnery school and that was, that was to be, that was just to be on a gunnery course. There was no shame to it, it was a good course. Other people went to wireless operator and gunnery, that was also a good course but certainly a little bit different. Anyway, we did, we went on to the straight navigation course and that was, that was fine. Then of course we graduated. You didn’t get any, any stripes, you didn’t get any. You just, just moved out and of course by that time they had, they had AC2s and AC1s instead of the, instead of the LACs so we never did get these props, but we were changed from LACs to AC1s. Anyway, the next thing we knew we had, we had a week’s leave, a week to ten days leave and which was very nice. We got rail warrants for where we could go and all the rest of it, that was ideal. And then we came back and when we come back from there we actually got posted to different places and I got posted to a place called Portage la Prairie. Now Portage la Prairie is a very special, a very special school. Portage la Prairie was Number 7 Observer School. In other words you are doing things slightly different from navigation and we concentrated a lot on [pause] on different, different subjects and one of them of course was low flying and be able to map read. That was quite easy in Canada but, anyway, later on it was a different story. But that was, that was Portage la Prairie. Now Portage la Prairie is still going today and every four years the commandant of Portage la Prairie comes across here to the UK and he and his family take up residence here, and I have, I have met three different families now that came from Portage la Prairie. Anyway, going back, going back to Portage we did this specialised training, navigation etcetera, etcetera like that and observer training and then we, we went in to, we went into Winnipeg. We went to Winnipeg and we attended various courses in there which we didn’t really know what it was all about but it was courses that we were really specialists in. That was what it was, we were specialists in different things, you know. Then we went back of course to, we went back of course to the main station again, and then we got leave. We got some leave and I managed to, I managed to get to see quite a bit of Canada. And then the next thing we knew we were back in Moncton. Moncton, New Brunswick. In Moncton, New Brunswick we had, we had maybe a week or a couple of weeks or whatever, whatever was, until we actually got sent back to the UK. Now, when, when that, when that happened you were called in to a room and we were allowed two big full size kit bags. One that you could take your Air Force kit in and one that you could put all your civilian stuff in, including all the things that you’d bought when you were in Canada and the States and things like that. [pause] And then of course what happened, you were told that you might have a preference of flying back which meant that you could only take one, one kit bag with you and that would, that would be your service kit bag and the other one would come later. On the other hand if you, if you went by sea, returned by sea, you could take the two of them. So at that time everybody thought, ‘Oh well. Everything we’ve saved up for is in that other kit bag.’ [laughs] So we opted to try and get back by, back by sea. So anyway that did happen and we went down, we went down to, [pause] we went down to the railway station this day with all our kit and there we were heading towards the sea. So we went down and when we went down there, there was a ship there. And this ship that was in the dock, I recognised it, and I was just saying to the fellows that were with me, my other two friends had gone, but other ones, I said, ‘This looks like the Empress Line, you know’, ‘Oh. Empress. How do you know that?’ I said, ‘They used to sail down the Clyde every Friday night and we used to watch them, you know. So, anyway, this one turned out and it was named the Empress of Scotland, you know. As I was walking around it I picked up a little bit of information. It used to be the Empress of Japan and during the war they had changed it, changed it from the Empress of Japan to the Empress of Scotland. So, that was Halifax that we were in. So what we did was one day we up-anchored and away we went and of course as we were going out there we were, we had some little ships, something like the corvettes that we had in the UK, and they followed us out quite a bit in to the Atlantic. Then one morning they weren’t there, so you were on your own. Anyway, we, we were sleeping once again away down in the depths of the ship and we said, ‘You know, if we go down there and we are in the mid-Atlantic and we get torpedoed I don’t think we’d ever get out of there you know’, because we timed it and the timing was pretty good because we’d done two or three different runs. And we said, ‘Oh bugger it. We’ll try and sleep up on deck’, but by this time it was summer weather so we actually slept up on deck. And then one day I looked up and I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘I know where we are’, I said, ‘We’re heading for the Clyde’. And we did. And we sailed right up the Clyde, up to Gourock and we lay off Gourock there and I saw a lot of the older men who were working on the boats there that I knew from my home town. Dunoon area. But we weren’t allowed to talk to anybody. We were told, ‘No, No, No, No, We don’t want anybody to know where you’ve come from or anything like that.’ So we got down and got onto a boat which was called the Queen Mary 2 and the Queen Mary 2 was a passenger boat that used to ply between Gourock and Greenock and Dunoon on the Clyde but she was bare by this time and she was painted grey the same as the rest. But she was used to ferry people from the liners across to Gourock or Princes Pier, and what happened then was that you went on a train to somewhere, you know. And of course eventually, eventually we did that. And we landed up, landed up in, we landed up in Yorkshire, that’s where we got to, you know. And we got there and we were billeted in one of the colleges and that was great. There was running hot and cold water and things like that and at night you could get out and you could go up to the pub because you’d already been given some money, British money, and we had two or three days there, you know and during this time this friend of mine and I’d met up with Alec Kerr again and we, we went in to this pub and I looked in this big mirror, you know and I said, ‘Look, I know that chap, that Canadian over there’. He said, ‘No you don’t’, I said, ‘Look. I’ll bet you a couple of pints’. He says, ‘Are you sure? Alright I’ll take you on’, ‘Alright’. I said. I said, ‘Yeah. I’m sure. Are you betting against me?’ He said, ‘Yeah. You don’t. There’s so many Canadians here’. Anyway, I went up to him and I said, ‘Oh by the way that was a nice wristwatch that you gave to your girlfriend at Christmas’. He was just about ready to put his [inaudible] up. He said, ‘Why?’ I said ‘Because I took her to a dance’, you know. And I said, ‘Draw that back’, I said, ‘Your names Nicholson, you know. And your, your girlfriend is staying with your mother and father because your parents are working on the railway’, you know. [laughs]. So what he was going to do to me, you know. Anyway, it was quite fun. We had, we had these couple of pints and we had a good night and he had to go his way and we went ours, I never saw him again after that. But it was quite strange. By the time I got home my mother and his mother had been corresponding, you know and she knew all about him and all the rest of it and that was it, you know. And apparently, apparently, the other one knew all about me, you know. [laughs] But from there, from there we, we were, we were back in the Royal Air Force, you know. It was entirely different again you know. Back in the Royal Air Force. This time we were shipped, shipped down to [pause] where would we call it? [pause] My kid’s staying there at the moment. I’ll get back to it. Let me get this. [pause] What — it was a station. The station is Halfpenny Green, you know and we, there were several of us went there, about a half a dozen, but other ones were scattered all over the place, you know. And once, once we get into Halfpenny Green we discovered that we were on specialised training of low level flying on the, on the new Anson, you know. And we did all sorts of stuff but this time of course it was Royal Air Force pilots and they were a lot of chaps who had actually been on service and they’d been lucky enough to have done a tour on something or someway and landed up there on the same as us, low level flying. But as I say most of them were actually stationed there and knew they were there for a while. Anyway, we went, we went there and we actually wondered why we were doing this because really and, really and truly it was just about the only thing we did. We did the night flying and we did this, we did that. We was also a lot of it was either moonlight or daylight. Anyway, what happened then was, of course what we didn’t know was that we’d been selected, selected for duties where, where your low level flying and stuff like that was good, you know. Of course, anyway, by that time that was one of the things we wondered why but you never asked too much. And then of course you had some night flying where you’re up flying low over Wales and all the rest of it and going, actually doing bombing runs under different bridges there and things like that just to keep your hand in, and then eventually we went to, we went to different, different stations again, you know. From [pause] from there [pause] sorry about that. CB: Do you want to stop for a mo? WM: Yeah. CB: Yeah. Ok. [Recording paused] WM: I had a break there. CB: We’re re-starting. WM: Fine. [pause] CB: Ok. WM: From there we were actually transferred to a secret ‘drome. We didn’t believe it was secret until we got there. As a matter of fact on the way everybody was saying it must, it must be like an ordinary station, and then as we, as we get nearer there with the talk that was coming back to us it really was secret, and that turned out to be Tempsford. Now, the big thing about that was, was that the first thing you did when you get inside you get lined up and you had a nice, sort of friendly talk. And they said, ‘Right you’ve now got to sign the Secrets Act again but this time it’s for real. CB: Right. WM: If you talk about anything and it gets out anywhere you will be shot, that’s how serious it is. And as a matter of fact a couple of times the little pub there — The Wheatsheaf — was closed because they thought that it might have been that some information might have been getting out through the pub. There was always the chance that somebody might have said something, although , as I say, we were sworn to secrecy. Now, what we didn’t realise at the time was what we were going to do because nobody told us and nobody would tell us. Now, after, after about a week I think what had been they were actually assessing our characters as they could see them there. They began to take confidence in us and give us that little bit of confidence, you know, and then we found out what it was all about. At that time the CO come in and he spoke to us and he told us what it was all about. And then we realised to what extent the secrecy was demanded because not only was the fact was that the people you were taking in to the occupied countries were in danger of their life but you also were. And what was given to us was, ‘You don’t communicate with them, and they don’t communicate with you’. I do know for a fact that the Americans later on when they started getting into things they used to call the people Joe’s and things like that, but we were not for that at all. We did not say, we did not take, if you turned around and say, ‘You’ve got a bunch of Joe’s there’ well right away people would know you had a bunch of people and where they come from. But the big thing about it was that in most times you just went out on one aircraft to one airfield, and that wasn’t too bad at all. Although there was a couple of occasions where about twenty agents who had been rounded up and all shot out of hand by somebody who had given, given them away, and that happened to be a person of the same nationality. We don’t like to say exactly what it was, I know people have written about it. But on the other hand is this, that we don’t like to think that, that the people helping our agents once on the ground was people that gave them away but it’s a sad story to say that it was. The worst part of that from time to time was in Holland, you know. And the bad thing about it was that the man who was responsible for so many deaths at one time was actually based in London, you know. He was, he was a, he was a Dutchman, yeah, and of course the Dutch people are still horrified about that, you know. That their own people could give them away, you know. Anyway, what did happen was that we were told exactly what was going to happen was that you would be allocated a pilot because then by that time I was classified as an observer. You had your pilot and you and he actually spoke over about what was going to happen. Once we knew where we were going and how many people we were liable to be taking. Well the thing is this. You can all imagine about Lysanders, they can’t carry very many people, but the lighter the people were the more we could actually take and that was a fact. And of course we were, we were told all sorts to keep our weight down. Now, I can assure you that it wasn’t too hard to do that but at the same time you had to make sure that you kept within limits. Now, when, when an operation was on, whatever was going to happen, however you wanted to count it or name it then everybody, everybody who was concerned once again knew what was going on. They knew how secret it had to be, they knew that people’s lives were depending on it, whether it was the team flying them out or the people going out. Now, what did, what did happen was that going back, going back to the time of navigating and taking everything on the map-readings and being able to do that. Nine times out of ten we were jolly lucky but sometimes you might have been landing in a field which was next door to the one that you were supposed to be landing, and the ground wasn’t exactly good. But, of course, the fields that we were landing on had, nothing had been done to them since the pre-war days and one or two of them had been glider schools that people had been taught to glide from, because then these fields had been disbanded and walked away from, you know, and people kept away from them. But they were the kind of fields that were the best for landing on. They had been, they had been more or less gone over in early days because gliding, gliding in Europe was quite a sport before the war. It wasn’t too, too strong in the UK but in, in Europe it was very strong from time to time, you know. And of course, as I say taking, taking people in it was the big thing was to make sure where you were going, how long it would be and as much as possible you had to be exactly on time because a few minutes either way could have cost people their lives because there was people that was coming in to meet the ones that was being taken in and there was also people further along the lines to receive them, so everything had to be timed exactly. If you had strong headwinds going across to the continent and you might have lost twenty minutes or things like that. That was too bad but at the same time, at the same time you had to try and do something about it. And the best thing that we used to do was to try, try and get that little bit extra speed and keep down as low as we could, then of course you had, you had more dangers than you normally would have with wires and all the rest of it, you know. But everything was done more or less by moonlight and that was as best as we could do it. The big, the big thing about it was trust. Now, with the early, the early days there was quite a few of the chaps who were flying there had, had been flying over that area either as people who had money and could fly about etcetera, etcetera or they were people who had been in flying clubs, so they were the best people to get some of the ideas from of how you could do it. Now, the big thing too was that we had, we had some officers with us who were exceptional in whatever it was, whether they were pilots or whether they were navigators or whether they were doing exactly what we were doing, you know because [pause] when they, when they told you about things you certainly listened to them. [pause] WM: After a while we actually got, we got some twin-engined aircraft from America and with them they were quite good because they were actually designed to land in the Prairies in Canada or America and their undercarriage was strong. That the likes of the fields that we were operating on they could be taken in and that was, that was one of the good things that happened there. Now there was one particular night and we were loaded up with guns and ammunition and all these sort of things for the Maquis and we had our target where we had to take it to. Anyway, we set off and we had just the three of us in the aircraft. There was the skipper, myself and another chap who, well, nowadays you would call him a loadmaster or something like that. He was the chap that made sure that the load was alright, well maybe that was where the name came from, I don’t know, but that was what he always had to do. Anyway, this particular night we came in to this ‘drome which had been an airfield for, for the [pause] I beg your pardon, an airfield for the gliders. As we came up and we turned around we began to sink. And we felt, well, that would be alright. Nobby turned around and said, ‘Its alright Bill. Once we get rid of this stuff we’ll rise alright’. you know. So Jim, in the back, shouts, ‘Well I bloody well hope so. I don’t want to be kept around here for a while’, you know. Anyway, what did happen was that the Maquis came there with their person in charge, they got all their stuff away and off they went into the bush and that was the end of them. They were gone. Anyway, we tried to get out and we hadn’t got out at all, we’d got out a little bit. Not bad. Anyway, the leader of the group on the ground, and it was a lady, and what she says was, ‘We’ll get you out. Don’t worry. We’ll get you out.’ And we said, ‘How?’, ‘Oh we’ll get you out’. So she actually went to the village and she rounded up everyone in the village and of course they weren’t supposed to move, they weren’t supposed to go out after dark, but man, woman and child all came out to help get us out and of course they had to try and find articles that would help. Anyway, when they were half way up they met a German sergeant, and the German sergeant said, ‘Right. You people. You shouldn’t be out at night time. What are you doing?’ Or words to that effect. And she says, ‘We’re trying to get your big black aircraft out of the mud and the Gestapo’s going to shoot us all including you if we don’t get the job done’. So he says, ‘That’s alright. I’ll go and look after the village and you can get the aircraft out’. So, anyway, he went back to the village and they got us out, but that was about an hour and a half on the ground instead of, at the most, twenty minutes. And as I say when we took off that was one of the best take-offs we ever had because we made sure that she was up and ready to go. But the only thing, time, well, what used to happen to us was we used to get the odd chap on the ground who heard an aeroplane coming and you used to hear ‘bang, bang’ and he would shoot at us with a rifle or something like that, or sometimes even thought it was somebody with a shotgun because we didn’t know it at the time but when you got back again you found the results on your aircraft. And these old aircraft, they could take it you know which was, which was a big thing. But that that was the nearest that we got to ever being interned because we were, we were very lucky. I put, I put it down to each of us doing our own work, you know and able to do the job that we set out to do. There’s the big black box down there if you want to take it home and use it. Would you like to use it? CB: Yeah. WM: [laughs] Do you know what it is? CB: No. What is it? WM: What is it Tony? TB: I don’t know. What are we talking about? WM: In there. Around this side. [pause] Down. TB: That. No. Where am I looking? CB: We’ll have a look in a minute. TB: Yeah. WM: Over there. TB: Ok. WM: No. The big thing. The big thing down there. TB: I don’t know. WM: It’s alright. It’s been shifted. The girl shifted it. Sorry. I beg your pardon for this. CB: That’s alright. WM: It’s — TB: Not this. WM: No. It’ not that, Tony. CB: We’ll have a look in a minute. TB: Yeah. WM: Yeah. CB: Yeah. WM: Sorry. Sorry about that. CB: That’s alright. WM: Ok. Not to worry Tony. TB: Oh. WM: I know where it is now. TB: Oh. WM: She shifted it. I’ve got somebody that comes in, I beg your pardon, anyway , as I say between, between our training and respect for each other and what we did, I reckon that is why we survived. And not only that but the code of silence that we had. Now, what did happen was that later on, later on, once, once it started getting where they didn’t need so many people on the ground in Europe then we moved over to Tuddenham and then to Bomber Command, you know. And then later on all the station and everything else moved away from Tempsford across to Tuddenham, you know. And what happened was that the chap that I was flying with in the beginning, a chap called Murray, by that time he was, he was our wing commander. And he was the wing commander for 138 Squadron after the war as well for quite some considerable time, you know. Now, what happened, what happened to me was that on Bomber Command we did, we did thirty six ops on Bomber Command over and above what we did for the other ones but from time to time, our people just called them trips, there was no such thing as tours with us. It was if the old man let you off for a few days you got off for a few days. If he couldn’t afford to let you go you didn’t get, that’s how it was and you also had to make sure that you didn’t talk about what you were doing there. And that wasn’t just on the oath but that was also on the comradeship that we, that we had there, you know. Anyway, after that, after the end of the war the next thing we did was to fly back, fly back all our ex-prisoners of war and we were flying them back and also we were designated to take displaced persons down through France, down to the South of France, you know, and they had special camps there for them, to help them get rehabilitated, you know. And one of the biggest ones was at Istres you know. CB: The who? WM: Ist ISTRVS. In the south of France. TB: Istrvs. WM: Then of course, after a while there was three crews selected with their Lancasters and their ground crews and we went to RAF Benson. And we didn’t know what we were doing at first but eventually we found out what it was and one of the things that Churchill wanted was to have everything photographed from the air. The likes of London and cities like that we photographed them all from two thousand feet, then smaller towns. went I down gradually to about ten, fifteen thousand feet, and then of course the countryside was at twenty thousand feet. We didn’t only do the UK and Ireland but we also did right from the North of Norway all the way, right down to the Mediterranean and as far around to the east as we could go and come back on the fuel that we had. And that was an operation that had been put in place by Churchill when he was still in office, you know. CB: So this was coastline? Coastlines? WM: Sorry? CB: Just the coastlines. WM: No. No. Internal cities. Everything. CB: Right. WM: Yeah. Yeah. CB: Ok. WM: Now we had bases, we had bases in Norway, we had bases in France, we had bases all over. And that was 138 squadron. CB: Then what? WM: Then I went. I was told I wasn’t going to get made up to another rank that I thought I was going to get and — CB: What was that? WM: A warrant officer then. And I didn’t get that and by that time instead of going out on class A, I took class B which was an early release for anybody who had been in the building trade and essential industries like that and that’s what I did from there, I took that and back in to the building trade. CB: So what did you do in the building trade? WM: Well we, we started, we revamped the family business and carried out many jobs, many contracts, but in the end we were finding out that all the spivs were getting the jobs instead of honest contractors. And then one day I decided now that enough’s enough and I said to the family, ‘Right’, the younger brothers, ‘You can take over the business. I’m going’. I didn’t know where I was going to but eventually I landed up in Africa with the African, what it was, was that the, the Mandela, Mandela, which was a trading store in Africa had started up a building section and they recruited me to go and take over a dozen sights there, you know. And that’s when we started building the schools and the hospitals and the universities and all sorts of things like that. First of all in the Nyasaland, as it was and then, and then in the Rhodesias and then that became the Federation. And then that went ahead by leaps and bounds until the UK government gave the countries away. And then eventually I came back here after fifty years. CB: Where did you retire to? WM: Well I retired here because I retired supposedly in 1980. What happened, my wife didn’t want me around the house so I went consulting, and I was a consultant for the Zimbabwe government, Zambian government and Namibia and Mozambique and Northern South Africa wasn’t it? [pause] Yeah. CB: What made you choose this area? WM: Well, what happened was that I came, I used to fly around here but also the fact was that I came back here in 1991 when one of my nieces and nephews were staying here and he’d been given, got a job as a bank manager from Africa to be here. And I rather liked it, and eventually my wife and I decided to come here, you know, and now that all my family are either in here or down in the Bournemouth area. CB: How many children have you got? WM: Three. Three children and then six, six grandchildren and eight great grandchildren. Yeah. CB: What was your wife’s name? WM: Phillis. P H I L L I S. Like that. CB: Yeah. Ah fantastic. Yeah. And when was she born? WM: On the 1st of February 1926. CB: When were you married? WM: The 3rd of January 1947. CB: So when were you actually demobbed? WM: The end of February 1946. CB: Ok. You talked about a lot of interesting things and one of the questions really is, we haven’t touched on is, what were the planes you were using when you were with 138? On the agent’s side. WM: The twin engines were Hudsons. CB: Right. WM: Yeah. And then of course we had the single engines then. CB: Did you, did you fly in Lysanders? WM: Yes. CB: You did. Right. WM: Yes. CB: How many people could you take in a Lysander? WM: Well it all depended on the weight that you were carrying, you know. Yeah. CB: But if it was just agents. WM: Well that was, well that was, you could get three in, you know. CB: As well as you and the pilot. WM: Yeah. CB: Ok. And in the Hudson? WM: Well the Hudson mainly was, we took quite a few people on board, yes, about ten of them but we were mostly on the Hudsons taking in supplies to the Maquis. CB: So how often did you air drop the supplies? Or how often did you land them? WM: Well on the air drop, on the air drop was between, between fifteen and twenty, yeah, and then the land drops. The land ones, we landed with them, the special stuff. That was about five or six. Five or six. CB: Six people. WM: No, No. TB: Six times. WM: Six drops. CB: Six drops. Yeah. Right. WM: Yeah. TB: How many Lysander trips did you do? WM: Eh? TB: How many Lysander trips did you do? WM: About twelve altogether. CB: Twelve Lysander trips. Ok. And Hudson? Because sometimes you didn’t find the location did you? So — WM: No, we went, no well, we always seemed to, always seemed to be quite lucky that way. We were, you know. You know turn around and say it might have been the field next door or something like that but it wasn’t far away. We always managed to get our targets and get our stuff away. CB: But it took exceptional navigational skill in the dark to be able to get to these places. WM: It was. CB: So what was the, what was the real key to that? WM: Well they told me I had a countryman’s eyes. CB: Because not everybody could do it. WM: No, that’s right. As I said right at the beginning when I told you about the Clyde and the Clyde navigation. CB: Yeah. WM: The stars and things like that. You know, as a, as a boy I used to wander the countryside in the dark and it didn’t matter what the weather was. CB: Right. So you had an eye for it. WM: Oh yes. Aye. CB: So the navigation itself. What were you flying? What height were you flying on the transit? WM: Well the, no more than a thousand feet. CB: Right. So that made it difficult. WM: It did. CB: To see laterally. WM: That’s right. CB: And when you got to the target then, where you were going to land, how did you do approach that? Did you do a straight in or did you fly over and around or — WM: It all depends. If you recognised it and the code looks right you went straight in. Sometimes you buzzed it a couple of times because you weren’t sure whether it was a decoy or not. Because once or twice where the Jerries had set up decoys. CB: So you were warned off were you? WM: Yeah. Well it was the people on the ground you know. CB: That’s what I meant, yeah. WM: They always seemed to manage to do something that upset the Jerrie’s decoys. However, there were one or two chaps [pause] that didn’t. CB: Yeah. The, so you’re coming at a thousand feet. Is this a wooded area or does it tend to be open country? WM: Well most of them were open areas that we landed in, you know. Oh yeah. CB: And how would they know you were coming in practical terms. At the last minute. WM: Oh well. I would say they had a rough time of when we’d be there. That was what it was. CB: So were they using lights to identify? WM: Sometimes you had lights because we used to even take the lights in to them, you know. And sometimes the remote areas — sometimes they, they had little bush fires. CB: Right. WM: I call them bush fires. That’s from Africa, bush fires. CB: Yeah. Yeah. So in landing they were fairly small strips. WM: Oh yes. CB: So how did you know, because you’ve got wind to consider? WM: Yeah. CB: How would you know which direction to approach for landing? WM: Well, well you’d try and find your winds on the way through. CB: Right. WM: Yeah. CB: And what navigation aids were you using? WM: Well mostly, mostly, most of it was the navigator’s computer. There was a computer on the knee. But nine — CB: The Dawson Computer. WM: Yeah. CB: Yeah. WM: Nine times out of ten, nine times out of ten it was just the old fashioned hit and run, you know. CB: You didn’t have Gee. WM: Oh no, not at that time. We never got Gee until we were flying in, we never had Gee until we, we flew in Lancasters. CB: Right. Ok. So when you, when you were loading up to leave in the winter what was happening? Was the aeroplane sinking in? Is that what you were talking about earlier? WM: Yeah. That’s what you had to watch out for. CB: What did they do to help that? WM: Well our people were very good because you know they made sure everything was alright for us but the ones on the other side as much as possible they had firm ground for us, you know. CB: So you land the aeroplane. You had to taxi back. WM: Yeah. CB: In order to take off again. WM: That’s right. CB: How long are you on the ground between? WM: Well, as I say, about twenty minutes. CB: Right. WM: Well, some, some of these trips. Other ones were a wee bit longer you know. CB: The Lysander could get in a pretty small spot could it? WM: Oh yes. Yeah. As a matter of fact most of the first groups — they used to land on the roads. CB: Oh did they? WM: Oh yes. Aye. Used to land on the roads. CB: Between the trees. WM: Yeah. ‘Cause you could do that with the Lysanders. Aye. CB: What was the loss rate? Did people tend to —? WM: Well I’ll tell you about it if you give me a few minutes. CB: Yeah. WM: I’ll give you it exactly, you know. CB: Right. I’ll stop just for a moment. WM: Yeah. Sure. [Recording paused] CB: Right. We’re talking about the loss rates in 138 in the flying over Europe. WM: 138 Squadron. The Royal Air Force Association. The Royal Air Force, I beg your pardon. Royal Air Force. At Tempsford, during the time we were there we lost nine hundred and ninety five agents. CB: Blimey. So when. When’s that from when to? WM: That was right through the war. CB: Right. TB: When you say lost do you mean — WM: Lost. TB: What? Captured by the Germans. WM: Yeah. CB: Ok. WM: We dropped twenty nine thousand containers. CB: Yeah. WM: We dropped seventy, we dropped ten thousand packages. CB: Yeah. WM: And there was seventy — seven zero aircraft lost. CB: On the SOE operations. WM: Yeah. And there was three hundred air crew lost. The motto for 138 squadron is “For Freedom”. “For Freedom.” [pause] CB: Right. WM: It may be that you’ll come across some day — the United States Air Force 7th Airlift Squadron came to be with us and they actually adopted our motto — “For Freedom.” [pause] CB: Now, what were the aircraft used? Because we’ve talked about the Hudson — WM: Yeah. CB: And the Lysander. WM: Oh yes. CB: But were you using bigger planes as well? WM: Oh yes. Of course. We used, used Stirlings and Halifaxes. CB: In the squadron. WM: Oh yes. CB: Part of the same squadron. WM: Oh yes. CB: So they had lots of different aeroplanes. Yeah. WM: Yeah. CB: Right. WM: Yeah. We used Whitleys. We used everything. CB: Yeah. WM: We used to say that the junk that the old man didn’t want they used to pass it down to us. TB: How did the Stirlings and Halifaxes get off then because they needed quite a long runway didn’t they? WM: Yeah. Well that was, that was fine there at Tempsford. CB: Tempsford had a long runway so that was ok. TB: But the other end? CB: It’s a standard A airfield. TB: The other end then. How did they didn’t actually — they didn’t actually land in those? CB: They didn’t land those. WM: No, no . CB: They didn’t land at the — WM: No. They were for the heavy stuff they were dropping. CB: Yeah. So fast forward then to going to Tuddenham. WM: Yeah. CB: That was because the SOE bit stopped. WM: That’s right. CB: What did 138 do from Tuddenham? WM: Well we were on Bomber Command. CB: Yes. So what type of bombing were you doing there? WM: Well we were on a lot of the big ones that was available at that time. Yeah. CB: Right. WM: Including, including the various ones like [pause] Where was one? There was the Kiel one. CB: Yeah. WM: The Kiel. Then there was, was — TB: Did you do Cologne? CB: And a, so you did a lot of different raids there. WM: Yes. CB: What, what about D-day because you got the Legion of Honour. WM: Yeah. On, well, apart from the Legion of Honour wasn’t only just for D-day. CB: No. WM: That was for all the stuff we were doing for the French, you know. CB: Right. Ok. WM: But during D-day time what we were doing, we were dropping H2S. It seems a funny thing for us to be doing a thing like that, but H2S and you did so many trips during that particular time they just called it one. One day. One day. They didn’t call it, didn’t call it so many trips. CB: Right. WM: That was one day. CB: Right. Ok. So what were you actually doing? What were you actually doing at that time? WM: That was, we were dropping, we were actually dropping, dropping — CB: Window. WM: Window. CB: Yeah. WM: But at the same — CB: Not H2S. WM: Yeah. CB: Because H2S is the radar isn’t it? WM: That’s right. CB: Yeah. WM: Well H2S is our side. CB: Yeah. WM: Whereas, whereas the window was against the Germans so — CB: Yeah. Quite. WM: But of course, on the other hand we’d divert and do a short bombing run somewhere else. Somewhere, somewhere else. CB: Oh as well. WM: To try and convince them that we were all over the place. CB: Yes. Yes. WM: So one flight might go off after twenty minutes, another one after half an hour and go and drop something, and things like that. CB: Right. Ok. WM: Yeah. CB: So just on timings. When did you start with 138 squadron at Tempsford? WM: When? CB: When was that? WM: When. In Tempsford? Well we went back to Tempsford at the beginning of March. TB: What year? WM: Yeah. CB: Nineteen forty —? WM: 1945. CB: Right. WM: Yeah. CB: But originally when did you go to Tempsford? WM: Oh Tempsford. Not Tempsford, no, that was Tuddenham. CB: Yeah. WM: That was Tuddenham. CB: Yeah. So when did you go to Tempsford? WM: ‘41, ‘42 CB: Ok. WM: Yeah. CB: Right. And from then you went to Tuddenham. WM: Tuddenham was at the end. CB: Right. What did you do in the middle? WM: Tempsford. CB: Always Tempsford. WM: Always Tempsford. CB: Yeah. Ok. Good. WM: It didn’t matter what job come up, we were a Tempsford squadron. Yeah. CB: Ok. Good. Thank you very much. WM: And that is, that is and that was very important was that we were. Well 219 Squadron came and joined us from time to time you know but I had nothing, I had nothing to do with them, you know. CB: The same idea. You don’t talk to each other. WM: Much the same idea. Yeah. CB: Yeah. Right. So when you were at Tuddenham and you were in Lancasters, how many sorties? How many ops did you do? WM: That was thirty six. CB: That was thirty six. Ok. WM: Yeah. CB: So that that until the end of the war. WM: That’s right. CB: Ok. And how did the crew get on? WM: Oh, we had a great crew. What we, what we did, we went back to a place called Langar. CB: In Nottinghamshire. Yes. WM: In Nottingham. And that’s where we, where we picked up the rest of the crew. CB: Right. WM: And also there was one funny one we picked up, and what he was, he was the youngster, just come right out of university and we didn’t know how many languages he could speak but he could speak just about everything on the continent. And he used to carry his black box with him wherever he went and he used to, he used to speak into that. We never knew exactly what he was doing but we had an idea that he was talking to the German control. CB: Yeah. WM: And everything else like that. CB: Yeah. WM: A very important job, but as I say he was just straight out of university. CB: But he was completely detached from the rest of the crew. WM: No, no, no. CB: On the ground I meant. WM: He was a part of the crew. CB: No. On the ground. WM: Oh, on the ground. On the ground, yeah. He’d his own, he had his own station on the aircraft. Yeah. CB: Yeah. Where was that? WM: Yeah. He was behind the radio operator. CB: Right. WM: Because they had to work together on it. TB: But you dropped food stuffs into Holland as well didn’t you? WM: Oh yes. That, we were on, we were on that drop. CB: On Manna. WM: Oh yeah. CB: Operation Manna. Yeah. WM: Yeah. CB: How many drops did you do on that? WM: We did, at the beginning we did three in one, three a day. CB: Right. WM: We did that for about fifteen days. CB: Yeah. WM: Aye. Yeah. CB: And what height would you be flying for that? WM: Well some of it we were just over, some of it, at the beginning there was about a thousand feet, then it was down to six hundred, you know. But there was one, one little story which is quite, quite a good one. We, it was the first Sunday we were on the run and we were on our second, second run, anyway what happened, As we were flying up, you see what had happened the ladies, we called it ladies, we used to call it ladies they had made white crosses like that. CB: The WAAFs. WM: Yeah. Well we said that was. CB: Yeah. WM: We didn’t really know but the women used to say it was them. CB: Yeah. WM: And what it was that became our drop zones. CB: Oh I see. Right. WM: And that was inside — CB: In Holland. WM: Football grounds and thing like that. CB: Yeah. Yeah. WM: Enclosed areas. Anyway, what happened was as we were coming in and just about ready for the drop and I saw this other Lanc coming in like that. CB: Oh. WM: And I said, ‘You’re bringing sprogs, you know’, and we went a little bit that way and dropped because we couldn’t do anything else, we’d already gone, you know. More or less gone. Top they went and the stuff went outside and landed here. CB: Right. On the outside of the designated area. WM: On the railway, you know. CB: Yeah. WM: Yeah. Anyway, what happened was that years later we’d just opened a rugby ground in Africa and I was saying, I said, yeah, I said one of the stories I was saying, ‘And there we were, we dropped the food’. This lad came across. ‘And the stuff fell outside on the bloody railway line’, you know. And I said, ‘It looked like a whole lot of little black ants around a sugar lump, you know. In Africa that was. CB: Yeah. WM: All of a sudden I had a hand on my shoulder, and I looked around and somebody bigger than Tony, or he seemed bigger than Tony. I said, ‘What is it?’ He said, ‘You nearly killed me’, I said, ‘What?’, ‘You nearly killed me’. I said, ‘How?’ He said, ‘That was, I was that first lot of black ants’. And there’s another lady here, she was at church with us on Wednesday and she was five year old then and what happened was that her mother heard the bombers coming in and she, her granny said, ‘Hide under the table. Hide under the table. We’re going to get bombed. Going to get bombed’. And her mother said, ‘They’re very low’. The next thing they saw these funny things coming down because that was before the arrangements were made. CB: Oh. WM: And that was on to like a golf course. An open area. It wasn’t any good for landing. CB: No. WM: It was undulating stuff, you know. And what, what happened was that as I say she was five year old and that was the stuff landing right in front of her, you know. CB: Amazing. WM: Yeah. CB: Yeah. WM: And she’s here. CB: Is she? What an extraordinary thing. WM: And the number, the number of people that I’ve met is terrific. Well Tony was with us. TB: Yeah. WM: Tony was with us. I had a photograph here. Well it’s not a photograph. TB: Yeah. WM: There’s a painting done by a Dutchman, you know that was bigger than that. CB: Right. WM: No. It’s not there now Tony. It’s gone, my daughter’s got it. Like that. A great big mural, yeah. And he had it, he gifted it that day we were up there at Lincoln and it shows you the Lancasters all coming in, dropping the food and all the rest of it, you know and he actually gave me one just bigger, a little bit bigger than that envelope there. TB: But the Germans were allowed to eat the food as well that was meant — WM: Oh yes. TB: There were people. CB: They were starving too. WM: Oh yeah. Well that was one of the reasons why, why, well, do you know the story behind it? Right. The people in Holland, both indigenous ones and members of the German armed forces, were starving and two young Canadian officers, lieutenants, had been talking to their CO and said, ‘Hey man, can’t we do something about that? These people are starving’. And he says, ‘We’ve got plenty of food’. CB: These were army officers. WM: Yeah. ‘We’ve got plenty of food. Let’s give some to them’. He said, ‘How are we going to do that?’ He says, ‘Let us go in and see the German. See if he’ll allow it’. He said, ‘They might, you never know’. The two of them. No guns, no nothing like that, no knives, and they went in and they walked right into the German headquarters and demanded to see the number one. So they got in there and they put their case to them that the aircraft coming in wouldn’t drop bombs as long as you didn’t shoot at them, and we’ll drop food and you can share it. Of course he thought that was a good idea. You can share it. Anyway, that happened. So the first thing that people said was, ‘Where are we going to get containers?’ Everybody said, ‘138 squadron. They’ve got hundreds of them’, you know. And so we had. And what they, did they next thing we knew there was American, American trucks, Canadian trucks, all of that coming on to our secret ‘drome, you know, with food. And of course they were all loaded up and taken to us and put in these containers. That’s why I’m saying about contained looked like. They must have had quite a job trying to get into it of course, you know. CB: Yeah. WM: But that, that was the first lot of containers that were been dropped. Then they used to drop them in the reinforced mail sacks, you know. Well they were, they were run up special. People were running up up them special night and day to drop, so we could drop, so we could drop them. CB: Yeah. Yeah. WM: Some of them were great big things. They weren’t small, you know. Aye. CB: So even at six hundred feet the power of the drop would have been — WM: Oh well. CB: Difficult for the — WM: Well that was, that was — CB: They were breaking. WM: Well, that was the chance. Yeah. But most of our containers were alright because — CB: Yeah. WM: They were used to being dropped, you know. CB: No. Quite. TB: [inaudible] Lancasters were dropping the food? CB: Eh? TB: Were they using Lancasters? WM: Lancasters. Yeah. CB: Lots of squadrons did it. WM: Oh yes. There was. CB: Yeah. WM: Aye. CB: Right. What was the most memorable thing about your experience in the RAF? [pause] WM: It was when we were dropping the food to Holland and the response that we got. Yeah. CB: What? What was the response? WM: Oh terrific. CB: In what way? How did they demonstrate it? WM: Oh well. The crowds. Hundreds of people come out and waving to you and everything like that. And the, and the messages that was coming across, illicit radios and everything else. The airwaves were full of it. Aye. CB: Were they? WM: Aye. Oh yes. CB: And then after the war did anybody go back to Holland to see? What? WM: Oh yes. Yeah. Not only that, for quite a number of years they held food drops there, cheese drops. I was, in the beginning, alright but then I was away for fifty years. It still carried on during that time, and what used to happen was that the Dutch people came, came across on light aircraft and they brought all these little parachutes with these, you know these wee round cheeses and used to drop them at the various Royal Air Force Association homes on one special day at one special time. Yeah. And that was the food drops. TB: ‘Cause you’re got a Dutch reward haven’t you as well? As well. WM: Aye. I’ve got a Dutch medal. Yeah. CB: What’s that called? What’s that called? WM: Would you like to see it? CB: Yeah. [Recording pause] CB: So we’re talking about your Dutch award for Manna. What’s that called? [pause] WM: I’ve got it. Yeah. Yeah. That’s it. CB: What’s it say? WM: Thank you. “Thank you Canada and Allied Forces. Awarded the Medal of Remembrance. Thank you Liberators. 1945. To Mr W.T. Moore.” CB: This is a plaque on the wall. WM: Yes. CB: Yes. Framed. WM: Yes. CB: Yes. And then after the war there were regular contacts but you were abroad. WM: Yeah. CB: So you didn’t get involved. WM: That’s right. CB: Yeah. WM: Since I’ve returned I’ve been highly involved with them. CB: Yes. That’s really good. And this year, on the seventieth, last year just gone, the seventieth anniversary. Did you go to Holland? WM: No. I didn’t. I didn’t manage to go. CB: Right. WM: But I had quite a number of Holland and Dutch people come here and saw me. CB: Did you? Fantastic. WM: Yeah. CB: Can I just wind things back a little. Tell me about the crew. How, at Langar you crewed up. How did that happen? WM: Well [laughs] it was an old RAF system. CB: Go on. WM: Open the hangar door, everybody goes in and they shut the hangar door and you’re told to, to crew up. In other words you have to try and find a crew. And well we were alright, Nobby and I were alright, we knew each other. CB: That’s the pilot. WM: That’s right. CB: What was his name? WM: Noble. Noble. CB: Noble. Right. WM: Yeah. Because I had a few pilots before that but he was the one they were going to fly Lancasters with, you know, and so then we — CB: Who took the initiative in selecting the rest of the crew? WM: Well, it just happened that, happened to be we that were standing around and this old man came around, you know and we said, ‘Oh he looks alright. He’s got experience. What’s your name?’ ‘Graham. Graham Wilson’, ‘What are you?’, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’m a tail gunner’, We said, ‘Oh bugger off. We don’t want, you’re six feet and odd and you don’t tell us that’, you know. ‘You’re something else’, you know. Anyway, Graham Wilson became the tail gunner. He was, he was already twenty five plus twenty six. CB: Yeah. An old boy. Yes. WM: I know about that but — CB: Yeah. WM: And of course, then of course we had we had Jimmy Dagg. Jimmy Dagg from New Zealand and he became, he became our, [pause] well what he, what he actually did was he was our radar man. He was a radar man. He looked after all the radar equipment, and operating that as well. And then we had, we had radar, we had the wireless operator. We had a wireless operator and he was a signaller, Wireless Op/AG. He was a signaller as they called themselves, and he came from across the Clyde from me and his name was Dave Mitchell. [pause] Then of course the mid-upper, the mid-upper gunner, well he come from Canterbury. Peter. Peter Enstein and he and the family have a, have a hotel in Canterbury still, you know. TB: You met up with one of them at the ITV do didn’t you? WM: Sorry? TB: You met up with someone at the ITV do. WM: Yeah. TB: Who was that? WM: Well, that was that, that was the same ones that we met later on in life. Yes. CB: Who was the flight engineer? WM: The flight, the flight — CB: Flight engineer. WM: The flight engineer was Gus. He come from, he came from London, you know. CB: Gus. WM: Yeah, Gus Mitchell. Not Mitchell [pause] Oh what was his second name. Gus. Oh I’ll come back to him in a minute. CB: Yeah. Ok. WM: Sorry about that. CB: Right. Now, anything else that we need to cover that comes to your mind particularly? [pause] WM: Well, just about [pause] Well I think we’ve been covering it in general. We’ve covered in general, you know. CB: Yes. WM: We haven’t gone into designated drops and designated flights and — CB: Ok. WM: Where people got shot up and things like that. CB: Yeah. Well that’s — WM: I haven’t done that. CB: No. Can you do that? WM: I haven’t done that on purpose. CB: Oh right. Ok. WM: I haven’t done that on purpose. CB: Yeah. WM: We were quite lucky. We were quite lucky. We went in, in to Bomber Command as a crew and we come out as a crew. We were lucky. CB: Yeah. WM: We, the pilots I had earlier on for the small and light aircraft and things like that the most memorable one to me was this chap as I say when I started off he was a, he was a pilot officer, you know, and he finished up as the, as the wing commander. And with that he [pause] he actually, well to me he was a person who deserved everything he ever got because he was, he was a first class team leader, he was a first class gentleman. If he told you a thing then he meant it, he didn’t elaborate on it, you know. And his name was Rob Murray. Of course he had various, various high decorations during his time. CB: Yeah. Such as? WM: Well he got all the high ones. CB: DSO, DFC. WM: That’s right. CB: And bars? WM: Well he did. He did, yes. CB: So, when you were on operations, what was the most challenging thing on that? So you’re on the Lancaster — WM: Well on a Lancaster the main challenging thing was to watch out for night fighters. CB: Right. WM: You know, by that time your navigational aids were good but the worst thing about it was the German night fighters. Because there were so many young crews, as I call them, shot down before they even left the UK. The likes of chaps just about ready to shove off the cliffs there, you know, they got shot down, you know. CB: The night fighters were in that close were they? On the way to meet you. WM: Oh yes. Now then and also at night time on the return trips. That was also the night fighters rejoice. CB: Right. WM: Oh yes. You don’t hear a lot about that but there was a lot of chaps were actually shot down here. CB: Yeah. WM: On the return. CB: Yeah. WM: On the return journey. CB: And what about the British night fighters that were counteracting those? WM: Oh well that was up to my Jimmy Dagg and our boffin boy to do that. To try and, try and keep our special signals going. Aye. CB: So Jimmy Dagg was, where was he operating? Behind the signaller. WM: Yeah. That’s right. CB: And who was your bomb aimer? WM: I did the bomb aimer as well as that because I did, I did the navigating and the bomb aimer. CB: Oh did you? Right. WM: Yeah. CB: Ok. Right. And so when you were on the sorties in the night obviously. WM: Yeah. CB: In the squadron. Then what, you were in a stream. WM: Yeah. CB: Did you ever see other aircraft while you were there? WM: Oh yes, yes. Oh yes, we did. CB: How close did any of them get? WM: Well I think sometimes within a hundred metres. And other than that you had to watch out for chaps who were either too low or too high. Or too quick on the bomb release. Yeah. CB: Any coming down from above you? WM: Oh yes. But you know the thing is that if you went straight through on the guidelines of what you were told to do you were much safer than if you tried to do something different. CB: Right. WM: Aye. CB: So because you’ve got the extra person on board then you’re doing the bomb aiming as well as the navigation. WM: That’s right. That’s right. CB: So the practicality is on the run in. How far out from the target are you doing straight and level. WM: Well a lot of that depended on the territory and the terrain and how it was at night time you know. But generally, generally in later days when the pathfinders were going it was twenty, thirty miles and more. CB: And you are, you are not. You are releasing the bombs as the bomb aimer. WM: Yeah. CB: But you’re not controlling the aircraft. Is that right? WM: No. Well you did control the aircraft. CB: Oh. WM: Because you were controlling the pilot. CB: That’s what I meant, you’re telling the pilot. WM: Oh yes. CB: Rather than having the remote. WM: Yeah. Oh yes. CB: Yourself. WM: Oh yeah. The thing is as I often joke about coming out of the road here at night time I say to people, ‘Left. Left. Left. Left. Right.’ CB: Yes. WM: You know. CB: And then you had to do the photoflash afterwards. So how soon would that be after you’d released? WM: Well that. All that, that depended on how the target was. CB: Right. WM: But what you did was you counted in. You say each, each lot of bombs were [pause] were going to go off at different heights because they were different types of bomb types you were going. It wasn’t just all the same type CB: Ok. So what were the types? WM: Well you had everything from the small incendiaries, well the nuisance bombs, you know. CB: Yeah. WM: The big incendiaries that used to drop and probably set two or three buildings going you know. CB: Right. So your load would be a mixture of high explosive. WM: That’s right. CB: And incendiaries. WM: Normally was. CB: So the photoflash was to illuminate the target. WM: Oh to try and, yeah. CB: And when did the camera fire. How did that happen? WM: Well that was timed, that, we didn’t — CB: Automatic. WM: We didn’t actually do the timing. CB: Right. WM: That was actually arranged ahead of time you know. CB: So if you weren’t at the right height for the original calculation. WM: Yeah. CB: What happened? WM: Well then, then of course they could give you, could give you, you know say whether you were actually within that area or not, you know. CB: Yes. WM: Oh yes. CB: Ok. WM: A lot of people turn around say now that it was scattered and all the rest of it but a lot of them didn’t realise that you might have had a change of wind. The wind might have went up from fifty or sixty knots to about a hundred knots. CB: Right. And how did you detect that change? WM: Well, well what you did was you were finding your winds all the time and that. You had to try and allow for that you know. CB: But you’re not using a sextant. WM: That was the old days. TB: Looking out the window. CB: So you’re using Gee. WM: Yeah. CB: Are you? And GH. WM: Oh yeah. Yeah. CB: And GH? WM: And of course. Yeah. And otherwise H2S, you know. TB: H2S. Yeah. Just a quick one — WM: Once you, once you started on H2S you know it was a different story entirely. CB: So what could you see with H2S? WM: Well if you had water around you it was excellent. If you were going up alongside a canal you had excellent because the more water you had around you the better it was. CB: The contrast. WM: Yeah. CB: So how did you use H2S? For navigation? Or could you use it for the actual bombing? WM: Well we could use it, could use it for navigation. You could use it for bombing as well. Oh yes. CB: But what was the downside of using H2S? TB: The tracking. WM: [laughs] You should know what that was. TB: Yeah. Yeah. WM: That was as bad as the night fighter. TB: Yeah. Yes. CB: So the practicality of it is that you’d only switch it on occasionally. WM: Well the trouble was the better you were on the other instruments, the better your crew were on the other instruments, the safer you were. CB: Yeah. WM: Once you got the run ups and different things like that you then you were taking your chances. CB: Yeah. To what extent were you aware of the German system of upward firing guns in night fighters? WM: Well the thing is, the thing is this. With that — CB: The Schrage music. WM: It was something, it was something your rear gunner was dreading because after a certain angle he’d no control over that at all but if he, if he was on his, on his proper lateral defences for the aircraft, fine . Now, it’s, you couldn’t turn, you couldn’t turn around, turn around and say that the rear gunner missed something you know because it was a big bit of sky you know. CB: How many times did you get fired on from a fighter? WM: Very seldom. I dare say we actually got fired directly on with the other ones but we were aware of them, you know. CB: And did you do many corkscrews? WM: Oh yes, quite a few. Quite a few of them. Yeah. That that was a lot of the targets like Kiel and places like that that was when you did a lot of corkscrews was on that. CB: Yeah. And they were using box flak were they? WM: Yeah. Well you see, along, along the canals and that you had your pockets because, you know, the canal was where there had been several good attempts or big attempts at different things. Like one night we went out on the Friday nights and we bombed this battleship, you know and we actually put it on its side, you know. And the Sunday night we were called up again and somebody said, ‘you’ve got to go and so and so’. And a voice chipped up and said, ‘Hey are you wanting us to right and put it back up the way it was before?’ [laughs] That was a fact, that’s what he said. That was actually recorded as being recorded. [laughs] CB: So when you were bombing shipping what bombs were you using? WM: You had a medium height bomb you know but we weren’t in for the shipping direct we weren’t in a lot of these special ones. CB: Right. WM: But dropping bombs. Dropping bombs in the submarine pens, nowwe had the big ones for them as well. CB: You did carry the big ones. WM: Yeah. CB: Ok. WM: But you see the thing is this. We had a modern, we had a modern Lancaster, the most up to date one, yeah, And the thing about them was, was that you were, you were dropping. Later on what we were doing although we thought we were dropping on submarine pens, it wasn’t. We were dropping them because the V2s and the V2s were in there and at the beginning we didn’t even know that there was V2s and V1s, we just thought they were submarine pens because the amount of damage that the government believed was going to come on the London area was going to be horrendous and there could have been, you know. It was bad enough the likes of people down this area knew about the V2s and V1s and things like that. CB: Yeah. Sure. WM: Yeah. CB: Right. Do you want to stop there for a mo? TB: How did they discover, the Germans discover — [Recording paused] CB: What was the role, the difference between you, sorry, the wireless operator and Jimmy Dagg. So Jimmy Dagg — WM: Well the wireless operator had, as you say wireless. CB: Yeah. WM: He had his official work to do. CB: Yeah. Signaller. WM: Yes. CB: Right. WM: When Jimmy was doing this other thing you had, you had lots of stuff that was introduced that Jimmy used to use, you know. A lot of it, we never touched it, we never touched it, you know. Same as the, same as the youngster with his black box, we never saw what was inside that. CB: So, Ok. Who was the youngster then? WM: Eh? CB: Who was the youngster? WM: Well, he was young Weir. CB: Oh he was young Weir was he? WM: Yeah. Yeah. CB: Right. WM: But we never, well maybe a bit [laughs] [coughs] we didn’t, we didn’t treat him as a kid, you know, but we did actually look after him, you know, because by the time we were doing that we were, you know, we had quite a few things under our belts sort of thing, you know. Yeah. CB: So he only came in later did he? WM: That’s right. CB: Right. Ok. WM: Yeah. CB: Where did you meet your wife and when? WM: Oh I met my wife in 1944 in Dunoon, in Scotland. TB: Up there. WM: There it is. There. Up there. TB: Yeah. WM: That’s the picture up there. CB: Yeah. WM: But what it was, was we got, we got some leave and I managed to persuade the old man to give us a few days extra. And I said, ‘It takes us two days to get there and two days to get back again, you know’. And he said, ‘Ok’. So we got about ten, got about ten days and that, and that was the July of ‘44. As I say we thought we deserved a, we deserved a bit of a rest after what we’d been doing for D-day and all the rest of it, you know. CB: Yeah. Yeah. WM: Yeah. CB: And how many other bombers did you see blow up? WM: Quite a few actually but you were never sure whether it was your ones or the enemy that had been got at, you know. CB: How do you mean your ones? WM: I mean, I mean our aircraft. Some other Lancasters. CB: Which, whether it was a German plane that blew up. WM: Yeah. CB: Or a British one. WM: That’s right. CB: Ok. WM: Sometimes they went, they went puff too. Yeah. But no, no, it was hard to say. CB: And your rear, Graham Wilson in the back. WM: Yeah. CB: At six feet he was squashed in. Did you have the later .5 machine guns in the rear turret? WM: Yeah. Yeah. We had that. I’ll tell you what we did, I never mentioned this with — CB: Previously. WM: At one time from [pause] this was one of the sort of trips that we did from [pause] from Tuddenham. We, we went up to Abbotsinch and we got new engines put in, you know, and , well they turned around and said these ones were getting a bit old and so they were but we got these new engines put in. CB: More powerful. WM: Powerful. We could fly faster, fly further, fly higher, all the rest of it. Anyway, there was only three. So anyway we went up there and we got up to Abbotsinch which is now Glasgow airport, you know. I knew it as Abbotsinch as a kid, you know. Anyway, we left that aircraft. We had taken our own ground crew with us. CB: Oh. WM: We were told to do that, they also got leave, and we went home and all the rest of it. We didn’t scatter because everybody came and stayed with my mother, you know. Anyway, we got back and they had these new engines and the ground crew were back. They also had a couple of Scotsmen in the ground crew and we had to test these new engines and fly them around and give a report. So we used to take the chiefy, if you know what a chiefy is. Do you know what a chiefy is? CB: Yeah. The chief technician. Yeah. WM: No, no. CB: The ground crew chief. WM: No. CB: Oh. Which one? WM: No. A chiefy was a flight sergeant. CB: Oh. WM: [laughs] That is where it came from. CB: Yes. WM: The equivalent from the, from the Navy. CB: Right. WM: Was the chiefy. CB: Right. WM: And the flight sergeant became a chiefy. But anyway their chiefy came along and we got these engines back and had to run them up, so we did that and we had a couple of days flying around and one night in the, in the mess and the naval boys were shooting a line about HMS Forth and the submarines in the Holy Loch and they said that nobody could get near them, you know. Well, I’ll tell you what, I just, I never said a word and I’d told the crew already you don’t mention anything about. They might have guessed my accent a bit but, you know. Anyway, so anyway what we did we went into Paisley and we got a whole lot, a whole lot of little bags of lime, you know, and we loaded it up in the Lancaster and we took off. So, we had, we had permission to fly anywhere we wanted as long as it wasn’t in one of these defensive barrages, you know, whatever they call them. Anyway, we decided that we’d go and see The Forth. So we got in, we revved her up, we took off, we went across the Clyde to Erskine. We went up in to Loch Lomond and flew up Loch Lomond and flying low, used to flying low, then we jumped. We jumped over the section where the Norsemen used to draw their boats across Loch Lomond to Loch Long. And we jumped across there, down Loch Long, moved over into Loch Eck, down Loch Eck, Glen Massan and then we just opened up the throttle. Full throttle right down the Holy Loch and dropped all this stuff on HMS Forth and all the submarines and got the hell out of it, you know. Anyway, we got, we did, we went away down the Isle of Arran and all the way around about, the bottom of the Clyde, you know, and back up again about an hour later, you know. So, eventually we landed and this lieutenant commander sent for us, and we paraded in front of him, all scraggly buggers, you know. None of us had proper uniform on, we’d just what we used to use around the aircraft you know. Anyway, he says, ‘You’re all on a charge’. ‘Why sir?’, ‘Well it’s my Lancaster that did this, AC-Charlie, and I won’t have it’. I said, ‘What do you mean your Lancaster, sir?’ He said, ‘Well they’re based here and they’re my Lancasters. I’m in trouble for them’. I said, ‘Oh. Why’s that?’, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You made a mess of the Forth’. ‘Don’t you remember the other night in the mess? All these naval boys were saying it was impossible, you know’. ‘Well. Dismissed. We’ll see you later when you come back from your next job’. So we went up and went up north and we loaded up with bombs and eventually the idea was to go up into Leningrad, you know, so called Leningrad then, you know and the siege. A lot of people thought the siege was just like across the road there you know but it wasn’t, it was about forty or fifty miles away, you know, but at the same time old Jerry had it all wrapped up, you know. But the Russians had their great bunkers there that you could land a Lancaster on. Well they had, they used to say, ‘Watch the bloody holes in the runway’. But they used to fill them in all the time. Anyway we landed there, got under this big, what was supposed to be bomb proof shelters, you know. Well we knew what we were doing the other side but anyway that was it. So we stayed there until the wind changed because we couldn’t have the wind that we came in on otherwise we’d be flying over the Jerries’ lines immediately, you know, at low level. So we waited until the wind changed, right, Gulf of Finland, away, good.Back up were Russian bombs then, Back right down we dropped the Russian bombs. Now this was all his majesty’s ideas and I don’t mean the King either. This was Winston Churchill’s ideas to show what, what we could do, you know. Anyway, we went back to Lossiemouth and back again and back again and we were lucky, you know. We had a few chips and things like that. Anyway, the last time we got to Lossiemouth they said. ‘No. It’s finished. You did enough’. ‘Oh thank you very much. Where do we go now?’, ‘Go back to Abbotsinch.’ Back to Abbotsinch and all the boffins came up from the, from a factory which is, well the factory’s about twenty minutes in a motor car, you know. About five minutes in a aeroplane, you know. CB: Yeah. WM: But that’s where they used to make these engines, you know. Anyway, all the boffins were there. Took the, took the engines off, took them away again and then we went up to see the old man as we call a lieutenant commander. So we got up there and I knocks on the door. No lieutenant commander, full commander. And I said to the boys, I said, ‘Oh this is alright. He’s been posted somewhere’, you know. He wasn’t posted somewhere, he’d been promoted to full commander which is just under a captain in the Navy . Yeah. So I saw his secretary, a very nice young lady, I got on well with her, you know. Anyway, we said to her, ‘When can we see the boss?’ Well, she said, ‘I’ll make an appointment for you’,’ Alright’. The next morning appointment everybody had their best blues on, shining, buttons polished, boots polished. She led us in. He was out in his other office. ‘Come in. [pause] Morning gentleman. Why are you here?’ I said, ‘Beg your pardon sir. You’re the one who told us to come back here when we come back and you would sentence us to that escapade that we had’. ‘Don’t know anything about it’. I said, ‘But —‘, ‘I don’t know anything about it’. He said, ‘Good trips boys?’ ‘Yes’, ‘And they had theirs?’,’ Yes’. ‘My Lancasters’. So there it was. Nothing happened about it. CB: That was lucky. Yeah. WM: But the, there was a great friend of mine. He’d got a book, another book I think over there somewhere. Anyway, he’s written it. Peter. Peter Lovatt, you know. TB: Oh that’s the bloke you met at the what’s name isn’t it? WM: Sorry? TB: That’s the one you met at — WM: Oh right CB: Is it there Tony? TB: Yeah. WM: Eh? TB: Yeah. WM: One on submarines, and one on this, and one on that. CB: Yes. Lots of captains on HMS Forth. WM: That’s right. CB: Yes. WM: And [pause] and of course as I say what happened was that I lost touch. And you know the Millies? [pause] Well the Millies are sponsored by the ITV and The Sun newspaper and one of the first ones that was done I was asked to go on it. Anyway, I’d been, I’d been speaking to a young lady at the Bomber Command luncheon on the Sunday. CB: Yes. WM: And this thing was going to happen about ten days later, you know. But at that time I didn’t know. So, anyway, what happened was that I couldn’t, I couldn’t find him anywhere. I’d written to him, we’d lost touch and that was it, you know. Anyway, I even got a letter from him. It took fourteen years to come to me, I got it though. Fourteen years to come to me. Anyway, I tried to find him, couldn’t find him. Anyway, on the, on the Saturday [pause] no, I’ll tell you a sad thing that happened was on the Sunday I’d been at the Bomber Command luncheon and my wife was dead and my children said, ‘No dad. You must go and we’ll see to everything at the moment.’ So, anyway on the Friday we had the service and on the Saturday morning my daughter got a phone call saying that I was wanted for something special for the Millies. We’d never heard about the Millies. Anyway, she got to know a bit more than I did and then apparently this lady went to work to try and find Peter and she found his son playing golf and then that led to them finding Peter. And then of course on the Wednesday I got a car that came here for me. I was warned about this. First of all they said black tie and wearing black tie is fine. The next one was lounge suit, yeah, that’s fine. Next one was blazers and badges, that’s fine, you know.Anyway, what did happen was that I took the whole lot and I got dressed here in the dickie suit. All the way down to London, just myself in this green tomato carriage. The next thing I knew we stopped at this hotel. ‘No. Keep in where you are’. ‘Where are we going now?’ ‘Just you wait and see. I’ve got my orders not to lose you’. I said, ‘Oh. Thank you’. So they took us to Number 10. So that was fine. So we had a photographic session and shaking hands and all this. And then we got taken back to the hotel. We went to the Dorchester first and we, we had drinks there and then they said, ‘Time up. Everybody in’. And we had buses by this time, great big buses, you know, and the driver had already told us that, ‘You sit in the place where you are because I’ve got you on camera and you don’t dare go and move. Or another bus’. Anyway, we got back to the hotel and somebody says, ‘How about dinner?’ ‘No. You’ll get dinner where we’re going’. ‘Where are we going?’ ‘We’ll take you there’. So we don’t know where we’re going. So all done up in dickie suits and medals and this, that and the next thing. And we get there and we’re at the War Museum and it’s all lined up like Hollywood. All these searing lights and all this thing and we get escorted up. Once again, in the bus they said, ‘Have you got your number?’ The bloke next to me, he keep talking away to me and he turned out to be with, he was the boss of the Royal Navy you know. And he was down in the dumps because they’d just took his aeroplanes away that day, you know. He wasn’t very happy with them, you know. On the other side of me was a young pilot officer who’d a brand new DFC up here, you know. Anyway, that was fine. Anyway, we got there and they said, ‘Right. As you come up if you get a green ticket you go to the right. You get a red ticket you go to the left.’ Alright. I got a red ticket. I’m going this way and all these film stars and all these other high [unclear] and had a great run ‘cause you meet everybody because that’s the idea of the two lots. Then all of a sudden somebody shouts out. ‘Ready. The doors will be open in five minutes ladies and gentlemen. And after you get in through the doors there’s toilets on the right and the left that you may use’. [laughs] Anyway, we get there and then of course they tell us what table we’re at. Then I find out that I’m with another five Bomber Command boys. Bomber Command. Five. Five and one is six. Something wrong. Anyway, we go back. We go, we sit down and we get our nibbles and this, that and the next thing and that’s the beginning of a good evening, you know. Plenty of wine coming around you know. Very nice. Good stuff. Then the next thing I noticed that there were people going up to the platform. So this man went up and this lady went up and this man went up and eventually, ‘Bomber Command. Table Thirteen.’ We go up. There’s still six. Anyway, we get up there and as we get up one of the chaps, about his size, what does he do? He falls down through the trapdoor. Honestly all you could see was he was down to about my size. [laughs] So, anyway, what happens then is that we’re beginning to get the idea there’s presentations going on. So we got this presentation, a beautiful glass ornament we’ll call it, a beautiful thing. We’ve got it. Anyway, what happened, we got that and everybody else had moved away when they got theirs and this presenter, that fella, same height as me, white hair and this young blonde girl. She was here and he was there and wouldn’t they let me move. No. Then the next thing was the roll of the drums. ‘Brrmbrrrm brummmm brmmm’. What happens? TB: Peter comes in. WM: They have it like that programme, “Your Life.” Eventually what happens, I get to see something. I thought to myself it can’t bloody well be. There’s Peter Lovatt there and of course they said to me, ‘What would you like to do tonight?’ I said, ‘I don’t know but I’m beginning to think my imaginations’, you know. Anyway, apparently my accent was broader than it should be. Anyway, what happened, It was Peter. They’d found him and they had him dickied up and they had him there after all these years. Yeah. TB: [inaudible] CB: Extraordinary. TB: Yeah. [Recording paused] CB: We’re restarting. So what you’ve got is a plate here. WM: Right. CB: Yeah. WM: Now — CB: So they presented to you. WM: Now, when we went in to the, when we went in there, on the table, there were lovely sets of plates were all on the table and of course everyone was admiring them and reading them. And then of course when we came back from being on the platform they had disappeared, you know. But unbeknown to us they’d made up bags. Extremely heavy, strong, beautiful carved out, set out plastic bags. Now in the audience was my friend. Who? CB: This is your pilot? WM: Camilla. CB: Oh Camilla. WM: Camilla and her husband. CB: Right. WM: So, anyway, what happened during the time we were going around and they went outside and then everybody came back inside after the toilet, you know. What happened then was that we were at the tables and the VIPs came around to greet us although everybody told us we were the VIPs and not the ones coming to greet us. So, anyway, the Prince of Wales and his good lady was coming around and they got to me and I was told that, you know, we could talk to them. They’re here, we could talk to them. You’re the VIPs and you can tell them any stories you like so long as you don’t go on too long, you know. Maybe they knew me. Anyway, what happened, when they came to me I said, ‘Good evening ma’am. Good evening sir. Thank you very much for coming tonight. We’re very happy to see you here’. I said, ‘By the way can I tell you a little story about your granny’. That’s to him. And Camilla takes out a wee book, I’ve got one of them here, yeah, h, a little book like that, you know, and her pen. I said, ‘This is a story’, I said, ‘In 1960 I built a race course for your granny and I was given ten days to build it while she went on a cruise up and down Lake Nyassa in Africa’, and of course then the ears were going but I hurried the story up. So, anyway, anyway Camilla’s busy writing and she says, ‘This is going to be our story at Christmas’. Christmas is only a few days away, you know. ‘This is going to be our story. Nobody knows that one’, you know. So, anyway she writes down all this stuff about what I told her and all the rest of it, you know. And I said, ‘I hope you can read that’, and she said, ‘Yes. I better’. I says, ‘Ok’. And Charles is watching her. Anyway, the next thing that happens, the next thing that happens is he says, ‘Is that all?’ I says, ‘Aye. I can tell you a lot of stories about your mum if you like too’, you know. He says, ‘Another time’, he says. I said, ‘Alright, we’ll make it another time’, [laughs]. Anyway, I’ve met them several times since. Anyway, what did happen the people on the platform turned about to these ones? Yeah. Now, he’s a secretary for Bomber Command and has been for generations. There’s myself there and this was my nominated girlfriend for the evening. Well the thing is this, she’s married now and got a baby now. [laughs] And this is the one that fell down the hole. Well there you are. CB: Fantastic. WM: This is us shaking hands on the — yeah. That’s my friend Peter Lovatt. CB: Yeah. TB: Have you heard from him since? Have you heard from him since? WM: Oh yes. Aye. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Moore. Two Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-18 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMooreWT160318 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 02:45:48 audio recording Description An account of the resource <p>After spending time in the Air Defence Cadet Corps, Bill Moore joined the Royal Air Force, qualifying as an observer. He tells of his family history in wartime and his transatlantic trip, landing in New York before heading to Canada for his training. He went to 138 Squadron and tells of his time flying Lysanders from RAF Tempsford, taking members of Special Operations Executive over the France and of dropping supplies to the Resistance. He also tells that, on one of these operations, his aircraft had to be helped by local villagers to get airborne again. As well as Lysanders, William flew in Hudsons, Stirlings, Halifaxes and Lancasters in Bomber Command. Bill tells about 138 Squadron's part in Operation Manna - he received the Legion of Honour from France and also a Dutch Medal of Commendation. He also tells of his time after the war when he returned to the building trade working in Rhodesia and Zambia.<br /><br />[<strong><em>Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed].</em></strong></p> Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Suffolk England--Yorkshire England--Scarborough Canada New Brunswick New Brunswick--Moncton France France--Istres Netherlands Zimbabwe Zambia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maureen Clarke 138 Squadron aircrew Anson bombing crewing up displaced person Gee H2S Halifax Hudson Lancaster Lysander observer Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945) RAF Benson RAF Halfpenny Green RAF Heaton Park RAF Tempsford RAF Tuddenham Resistance Special Operations Executive Stirling training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/176/8779/PFrostB1501.1.jpg 421cb1de4770c3cda2c64d9ccdc2e35c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Frost, Bob R Frost Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Frost, B Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-07 Description An account of the resource Four items. Two oral history interviews with Robert Frost (1383682 Royal Air Force), and two photographs. Sergeant Bob frost flew as a rear gunner with 150 Squadron from RAF Snaith. Shot down on an operation to Essen, he was helped by the Resistance and evaded through the Netherlands and France to Spain. The story of his evasion is available in video form. The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Bob Frost and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bob Frost. Two Description An account of the resource Bob Frost flew on a night operation on 16/17 September 1942 as a rear gunner on Wellington BJ877, 150 Squadron, from RAF Snaith. Before reaching the target at Essen, the aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and the port engine was damaged. He describes how, during the flight home, the aircraft was completely disabled and all the crew bailed out, landing in Belgium. He narrates the experience of being helped by the resistance, from his first encounter with a Flemish family through to Gibraltar, via Kapellen bij Glabbeeck, Tillemont, Brussels, Paris, St Jean De Luz, San Sebastián, and Madrid. He praises the resistance for the support they gave him. <p>This content is available as embedded video:</p> <p><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LWv-48NHlUM?rel=0&amp;showinfo=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen="allowfullscreen"></iframe></p> Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Belgium France Germany Spain Belgium--Brussels France--Saint-Jean-de-Luz Gibraltar Germany--Essen Spain--Madrid Spain--San Sebastián France--Paris Germany--Ruhr (Region) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942-09-16 1942-09-17 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Heather Hughes Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-11-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:17:55 video recording Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving image Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PFrostB1501 150 Squadron air gunner aircrew anti-aircraft fire bale out bombing crash evading RAF Snaith Resistance https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/552/8816/AMaddockLyonR160321.1.mp3 a595d15f2a53dcbc9fb8c503f4160890 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maddock-Lyon, Roy R Maddock-Lyon Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MaddockLyon, R Description An account of the resource Seven items. An oral history interview with Roy Maddock-Lyon (- 2023, 2205669 Royal Air Force), his log book, service material, silk escape map and an album. He served as a flight engineer with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne until he was shot down on his 18th operation over Denmark 14 February 1945. Two of his crew were killed but he evaded with the help of the Danish resistance. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Roy Maddock-Lyon and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document CB: Right. My name is Chris Brockbank and we are interviewing Roy Maddock-Lyon today which is the 21st of March 2016 at Lee House in Weedon near Aylesbury. And Roy was a flight engineer and he’s going to talk about his life and times. So, Roy how did it all start in your mind? RML: Well when I was born I suppose. But yes, I was born. I was born more or less in the time of the Big Depression but my father continued, was working. He was an accountant and he’d served in the First World War. And from then on I went to Runcorn Grammar School. It was then called technical college but it became changed to a grammar school and I was educated there until the war broke out. And Runcorn was an evacuation town so all the young kids were evacuated to Blackpool. I was one of them. I didn’t like it there so I came home but my school up was at Blackpool so I went out to work and I took an engineering apprenticeship and I enjoyed that. And I wanted to be a chemist but there was no vacancies at ICI for a chemist apprentice so I went into engineering apprenticeship. That, I studied, got my Ordinary National and I started getting my Higher National but I’d, it had just developed that the RAF and I thought I’d like to join the RAF. I didn’t think of the army. In fact I didn’t think it was my sort of cup of tea. Neither was the navy. So I went in to the RAF but during that I had an interesting experience. I was with the Civil Service, as it was then called, and I was a messenger in the Civil Service. The role of the messenger you did one night a week and you were there in case of messages, an air raid, and you lost communication and then I had to know where to go. You know, the post office, the police and that. And the interesting case was because Liverpool had been badly bombed there was an organisation known as the Queen’s Messengers. Have you heard of it? CB: No. Never. RML: Well the Queen’s Messengers was a relief organisation run by the government and it was stationed in Birmingham and it was a fleet of coaches and lorries carrying relief to wherever there was a damaged area and it was called the Queen’s Messengers. And as the roads were all in blackout and the road signs had all been taken down the messengers had to know the area. So I had to go from the, well the relief convoy was coming up from Birmingham to go to Liverpool and I had to cycle to a place called Helsby outside Runcorn and to get in the front vehicle and guide it to Runcorn and then hand over to the next one because they knew the road and they went on. So it was an interesting exercise and not many people probably know about the Queen’s Messengers. CB: No. No. RML: And they was probably there for a couple of days and the next raid, where ever it was, they went off to there and it was a very good relief. So that was all I had to do was sit in the, in the front vehicle and put my bike in there and wait until they got to where I had to hand over and there was this continuous movement. There was about three or four Queen’s Messenger convoys going. All radiating from Birmingham. I think that’s something that could be developed you know because not many people, as you say, nobody knew about them and it was essential to get relief supplies because we carried medicine and doctors and things like that. And so after that I used to do one night a week and then I got a request calling up for an interview and they interviewed me for RAF ordinary and they said would I like to go into aircrew? And I said, ‘Of course I would.’ [laughs] And so they said, ‘Right. Well you’d better go home again,’ because they weren’t recruiting at that building for aircrew. So, I was then called up about a few weeks later. Had to go to Padgate and, where they assessed me for whatever. Pilot. Engineer. Gunner. And I passed with flight engineer and then I eventually was called up to go to Lord’s Cricket Ground and, where I had a fortnight’s equipping and getting into uniform. Inoculations and that. And that, once I passed that at Lord’s I was sent to [pause] yes, Sunderland. Just outside. In a place called Hetton le Hole and I did an amount of training there and then I went from there I went to Bridlington where I was, had other training including parachute dropping. How to get out and open a parachute and drop on the ground. How to fall and do the normal roll. And then I was sent home on leave. And after doing the square bashing and that at Bridlington I was then posted to St Athan where I did type engineering training and then I got type training. I couldn’t go into Lancasters because I was too short. You had to be five foot, over five foot six for an engineer. I don’t know why. But they offered me Flying Boats or the Halifax and so I took the Halifax and I did my type training on the Halifax and I passed that and then was allocated to a squadron. Oh no I wasn’t. I was sent to HCU and that’s where I eventually met my crew of five and then made it seven and whilst at Acaster Malbis I did commando training in case I was shot down and various other exercises and then I was squadroned. Yeah. No I wasn’t. I was sent, sent to HCU then to do my initial training. That was, they was using the very old Halifaxes which were flying coffins because they invariably crashed. So It was a mark ii. Mark i and Mark ii Halifax. I went on the Mark iii eventually and it was a good experience. I had one dust up with the police because I was cycling home. We’d gone out to a party and my navigator was on the cross bar and a policeman stopped me and that was not allowed. To have a crossbar. So, he took my name. I got called up and got prosecuted for that and the magistrate said had I got anything to say. I said, ‘Yes [time that blinking plod?] was in the air force. Not punishing us.’ ‘Right.’ He’d already given me a ten shilling fine. ‘Another ten shillings. [laughs] Have you anything more to say?’ I said, ‘No.’ Blinking — I said he should be in the army or the, yeah, instead of stopping — anyhow, so then I went. So that was my brush with the law. In fact, in the squadron they all thought it very funny. Including the CO. [I hope that bloke had] had some more disasters. Anyhow, I went to my squadron and I’ve written a book here on what I did including photographs. So you can borrow that. CB: Thank you. RML: I can get these back wont I? CB: Yes. Absolutely. RML: And there was lots of things. The Halifax was a good plane but as a — well fortunately I’d written to the Hercules who made the Bristols, who made the engines and they sent me a calculator how to measure your fuel consumption. So as a result, all the other engineers hadn’t got that. So as a result, I had a good fuel record. CB: Oh. RML: One raid I was on using that and we’d got hit with shrapnel and all and I’d had to do the necessary fuel change and we came back to the squadron and we said, have permission to land and we got a, we were damaged, and, ‘Can we have priority landing?’ ‘No, you can’t land here. Go to Carnaby.’ ‘No, we haven’t got enough fuel to go to Carnaby.’ ‘Well too bad. Go to Carnaby.’ And we turned from York on to Carnaby which is Bridlington and as we come in to land two engines cut out. We were just on the, we planted down on two engines. Out of fuel. Thinking I’d have a lot to say about that if it wasn’t recorded because we should have been able to land. But anyhow the two engines cut out and when we taxied around another one went. So, we lost three engines. It wasn’t, wasn’t funny and, you know, all the other planes were there and as we taxied around and we got nose to tail so we stopped our plane in front of another plane and were getting out and as we were getting out there was a heck of a noise and two planes farther back — they were doing the same. The engine of one went into the rear turret of another and just chewed the rear gunner up like spaghetti. It was terrible, and we were walking, you know, got our equipment back to the reception and we saw all this, you know, damage. CB: Yeah. Frightening. RML: If the pilot had kept the plane going straight it would have been ok. But no, he tried to accelerate to turn the plane away and that’s what happened. CB: Dreadful. RML: The engine, you know, the propeller just churned him up. It was a heck of a mess. It was a bit disheartening. CB: I bet. RML: But we, we had other raids to go on. And then one other raid. My pilot was a bit of devil. Having flown the Tiger and other, we came — we was out doing, we were training like Barnes Wallis wants. Low level flying. And we came over Bridlington beach and the holidaymakers dropped to the ground because they thought they was going to be cut up but we carried on from there over the Yorkshire Moors and I don’t know if you’ve been up that area. CB: Not recently. RML: Well they’ve got pylons there. CB: Oh yes. Yeah. RML: They’re quite high aren’t they? CB: Yeah. RML: Yeah. Well what do you do with a pilot that wants to go underneath the wires? At about fifty or a hundred feet. Which is what we did. CB: Amazing. RML: He had, he got a severe reprimand for that. CB: Really. RML: So, anyway, but yes we did low level. We was training for low level flying. You know a lot of people think that the Lancaster was the only group that could do low level flying. They weren’t. There was other squadrons that was capable of doing a low-level attack because they had to. There was lots of cases. And so when I, well I was eventually shot down. Done eighteen raids and on the eighteenth I was shot down in Denmark. It wasn’t very pleasant because it was February. It was a bit cold. So, when I landed I’d got the old fashioned flying boots which is a disaster because when my parachute opened my shoes decided to continue. You know the ones I mean. They were just sleeves – CB: Fell off. Yeah. RML: Oh, they went down so I landed in bare feet. When I didn’t, I looked around, blew my whistle and I couldn’t hear anything because I think I’d gone deaf, you know, with dropping from twenty thousand and so if anyone had blown their whistle I didn’t hear it. But I looked up and I could see there was a farmhouse there so I started walking in bare feet to go to the farmhouse and then I realised that going to the farmhouse I’d be leaving my trail because it was soft ground. So when I got to the farmhouse I walked, turned right at the farmhouse and walked down the road and I came to another farmhouse and it appears that the next day the Germans went to the farmhouse I’d been and there was nobody there. I wasn’t there. The farmer took me in and gave me ham and eggs and I’d got my escape kit and my escape money and I slept in his house that night and he was absolutely panic stricken because he’d got a young daughter and if the Germans had known I was there they, that would have been the end of their life. So anyhow the next morning when I got out of bed the milkman called and the woman was in tears apparently and she said she didn’t know what to do. She didn’t want to give me up but she was worried about her daughter. So, the milkman said, ‘Right. Put him in the hayloft,’ which is what I climbed up in to the hayloft. Burrowed down about two or three feet because the Germans, if they was looking for anybody they’d bayonet the holes to check. I was down deeper than that and at 6 o’clock at night when it was dark the milkman came and brought me some shoes. I take size seven and he took size ten or eleven [laughs]. Not funny. And so, I put those on. Went with him across the fields because he only lived about half a mile, a mile away and the house where I’d stayed the farmer there followed me with a rake levelling off the ground where my footprints had been and so that he was giving me cover and it turned out then this new bloke Johan Helms, he, it’s in the book, he thought, his wife got me clothes because I’d still got RAF uniform on. So, he got me some shirt and trousers, shoes and we went next morning. He said we’d got to get out quickly because there was a train coming and we had to get on the train. So he took me down. Instead of going down the road we went down field-ways because he knew the area, being a milkman. And we get to this station. I just forget the name of the place. [Toulouse?] that was the name of the town. And he — I’d got the money so I gave him my money. He got the railway ticket and to go on the train which we did but as we were waiting for the train there were a couple of SS officers come stalking up and they got on the train with me. In the same compartment. They were talking, yabbering to each other. They’d probably had a girl the night before and they weren’t interested in passengers on the train. So and the train was going from [Toulouse?] to Copenhagen but in Denmark they’ve got an underground system like London Underground and so, we got off at a place called Roskilde. Oh no. The SS officers got off at a place called Roskilde which was German headquarters and then we went on a little bit farther. A few miles. Ten, twenty miles and the train stopped again and we got off because it turned out that we, he put me on to, or we both got on to the Underground which was going around Copenhagen and so, we got on that. When it gets to Copenhagen the train which we’d been on was in the platform and the German troops were searching it and we were on another train and what they, we all thought, and I agree with that the Germans probably realised when they got off the train at Roskilde that what was sitting next to them was one of the RAF people that was escaping. So that was why the train was stopped and, but we didn’t need it. So, they never found me, and I went to a place called Charlottenlund which was, the owner of it was the warden of the equivalent of Kew gardens and it was called the [Forest Botanski Garden?] and this man, who was the brother of the milkman because he’d rung up his brother to say he’s got, got some nice chocolates and I was traded as a box of chocolates. And so, we got there and he er [pause] yes, his daughter, the owner didn’t want me around for obvious reasons so his daughter took me around the wooded area where the trees were and we were walking around there and suddenly two German soldiers come up and she put her arms around me and started kissing me. Not that it meant [laughs] and the Germans probably thought I was her boyfriend so they just walked on, and I was left, and I was then later that day handed over to Professor [Eyg?] I don’t know if his name is familiar. He was the leader of the Underground. The Danish Underground. So, he took me to a safe, a safe house where they took my identity, my photographs and gave me a false identity and, I’ve still got it here. And I just well yeah they gave me, and then again I became another box of chocolates because this group who interviewed me of Danish ladies handed me over to another bloke and his wife and I just went and I had a bath and had a good wash and a shave. And he took me for, he said, ‘I want to take you around Copenhagen in the morning,’ so he did and as we were going down one of the side streets there’s a German road block. So they were checking everybody for their identity. So there was a cinema next door there so we went into the cinema and saw some film which was — I don’t know what it was. And after about a half hour we came out and the road block had gone so we were free so he took me around Copenhagen, around Gestapo Headquarters and that was, and he didn’t tell me what he wanted me to see but he showed me what I could see and that was Gestapo Headquarters and also there was doing, the Germans were doing something. Do you know what Copenhagen looks like? CB: I’ve been to Copenhagen. Yes. RML: Well there’s four lakes coming down and at the end of the fourth one is Shell House and what they were doing they was putting trees down next to the lakes and he said, ‘Take a note of that,’ and I just did that. Apparently, when I got back, it’s skipping the order to tell this bit, Air Ministry made one terrific blunder because they were planning a Gestapo Headquarters raid which went a complete success but a disaster because one of the pilots on the Mosquito, I don’t know if you know it, missed the, went down the wrong lane and hit the school. CB: I know about that. RML: And wasn’t supposed to CB: Right. RML: Because I’d gone back to tell them that the Germans expected it and they hit the school because the pilot, that one pilot had gone sick when I did the briefing and he didn’t know about the alteration and as a result he went down what he was been told, trained for, which was the wrong direction and that was how a whole load of school children were killed. CB: Yeah. Very tragic. RML: About a hundred children. More. Killed because of a pilot who didn’t go to the training. Anyhow, I felt very angry to say the least. But because the Gestapo headquarters, they hit it as they wanted to. I don’t know if you remember what they did. They hit the ground floor with the rockets. CB: Yeah. RML: And all the Gestapo and SS who were on the ground floor were killed and all the Danish government officers who had been put on the top floor escaped. It was a wonderful success that. And anyhow eventually they decided that I had to get out because I’d got, I didn’t know I’d got this information because for obvious reasons they didn’t tell me. But they got me out and as I said it was February and they put me on a ship that was leaving Copenhagen that night to go to Bornholm and on to Germany and what it was doing it was taking German troops back to Germany. So I had to be on that boat before the German troops came on so and so they put me on the outside of the life boat which was just, the water was down there and when the ship started to sail I had to crawl from outside the lifeboat to the inside of the lifeboat. The lifeboat was sitting on the deck and they put the searchlight on and they couldn’t see me because I was on the inside now. Beforehand when they were searching the ship I was on the outside. And eventually when it had gone out of the port they came and dragged me because I was frozen. Very cold. And they took me down to the captain’s cabin and he was a double agent because as he pointed out to me on the last voyage he found a German revolver and he took it down to them and said, ‘Look. You must have left this.’ And he said it may have been a trick. But anyhow he was, he said, ‘I’ll have to leave you now.’ But he gave me [egg and ham?] lots of food and I was eating that all night and he was entertaining the Germans down below. And after the war I had to go to Denmark to identify that he had actually been a double agent. CB: Yeah. RML: Because he was under, the Danish people thought he’d been a traitor. So anyhow, I get off the boat and the Air Ministry or the government had sent somebody down from Stockholm because they were expecting me. They got a message across to say that I was on the boat and the Danes, the escape route — I think — I forget the name of the route, but it had to be closed down because it had been compromised but it was too risky not to take the chance because they had to get me back to Stockholm to Air Ministry urgently. So, the Danes took a terrific risk in getting me on a route which had been blown because the Germans insisted on identities of people going on. It’s in this book it’s described and so they got me off and it was and then in the morning as I say the Air Ministry, the air attaché had come down from Stockholm, met me, took me to his flat and I had a wash and a shave and one memorial episode. He said, and it was night time now, he said I’m going to give you a shock. I said, ‘Well what?’ He went to the window and drew the curtains back and I’ve never seen anything as — you can imagine when we’d had a blackout for four years. Nothing. No light. And Malmo, where we’d landed, was just like Piccadilly Circus. You — the lights were terrific. It was mind blowing. And so that was a shock to me. He then took me to the station and he didn’t come with me. I don’t know why but he put me on the train to Stockholm and I’d only been on, it was a sleeper, night sleeper. I’d only been on the ship er on the train about ten minutes and somebody else came to get in the top bunk and he spoke to me. He said something in German. ‘You’re not German.’ ‘No.’ ‘What are you? American?’ ‘No.’ ‘British?’ Well you couldn’t argue with the fact I could only speak blinking British, so he said, ‘Don’t worry. I’m not going to give you up.’ He said, ‘I’m the German courier from Berlin and I’m going to the German Embassy.’ It’s nice that they have got some people that’s friendly. And so, we sat there and he said that Germany wasn’t so, this was February ‘45. Getting towards the end. And we had a little chat. In the morning he shook me out of sleep and he said, ‘Where are you going to now? British Embassy?’ ‘Yeah.’ ‘I’ll get you a taxi.’ So, he got me a taxi, ordered, told him to take me to the British Embassy. This was a German courier. And I got to the German Embassy, er British Embassy and it was fine. So I’m there and then one of the staff at the Embassy said, ‘Do you smoke?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Here’s two hundred gold flakes from the British Red Cross.’ I said, ‘Oh thank you.’ So, I got those and I got sent to a hotel. The Grand Hotel in Stockholm which is quite a good one. It’s a big one. It’s like The Savoy. They put me in and when I’m, I decide to go out and I’d got some cigarettes in my pocket and I was in plain clothes now because they’d taken me to like Harrods or somewhere where they equipped me with a suit, tie, shirt, everything and so, and shoes, everything. I’d got everything I needed. So, I went downstairs and was sitting outside and a Swedish girl came up to me, a blonde and said, ‘Have you got a cigarette?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘Can I have one?’ I said, ‘Yeah. Ok.’ I was naïve. Stupid little boy. So she said, ‘You haven’t got a spare packet have you?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ ‘Oh, I’ll see you in a minute.’ ‘I thought that’s the worst, you know, she’s taken my cigarettes and gone and buggered off. About ten minutes later she came back and said ‘It’s all fixed.’ I said, ‘What?’ ‘The room.’ The packet of cigarettes was getting you a room for the night. So anyhow to be honest it didn’t materialise. So, and so I didn’t take her up on her offer. I was only in Stockholm two or three nights, so I went to the Embassy and it was interesting. The air attaché had got two daughters... Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Roy Maddock-Lyon Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-21 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMaddockLyonR160321 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Denmark Great Britain Sweden Denmark--Copenhagen England--Yorkshire Sweden--Stockholm Description An account of the resource Roy Maddock-Lyon was born in Cheshire and began an engineering apprenticship when his school was evacuated at the start of the war. He was a part of the Queen’s Messengers, a relief organisation that travelled to bombed cities to take emergency medical and other supplies. He later volunteered for the Royal Air Force and was selected as a flight engineer. When he joined his squadron, he recalls a time when they were refused emergency landing at an airfield and had to fly on to RAF Carnaby. He then witnessed a tragic accident on the airfield. He was shot down over Denmark and evaded to Sweden with the aid of the Danish resistance. He discusses the operation to bomb the Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen. The interview is incomplete and ends abruptly. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1945-02 1945-03-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:40:07 audio recording 10 Squadron aircrew evacuation evading flight engineer Halifax Halifax Mk 1 Halifax Mk 2 Halifax Mk 3 home front RAF Carnaby RAF Melbourne recruitment Resistance shot down https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/553/8817/PMellorG1501.2.jpg ec53d3c84b8db787d307d49e498fe698 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/553/8817/AMellorG151006.1.mp3 341e9971baed998d88890a6e7fe4ee29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mellor, Gordon Gordon Herbert Mellor G H Mellor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mellor, G Description An account of the resource Four oral history interviews with Gordon Mellor (1919 -2018, 929433, 172802 Royal Air Force). He trained in Canada as an observer and served as a navigator with 103 Squadron. He was shot down over Holland in 1942 but evaded capture. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-06 2016-06-07 2016-08-17 2016-08-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AS: This is Andrew Sadler interviewing Gordon Mellor in his home in Wembley on Tuesday the 6th of October 2015 for the Bomber Command Centre. GM: Yes. AS: Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to interview you, Gordon. Can I start off by asking you where and when you were born? GM: Oh yes. I was born in Wembley. The other side of Wembley. A place called Alperton. And this was in 1919. November. November the 1st actually. And I lived there with my parents. I went to school locally until I was thirteen. Then I went to the Acton Technical College so that I had an education which was a little different to the ordinary standard county school level. I stayed there. My father died in 1939, in the beginning of the year and I stayed there until my calling up papers came. The reason why I waited until then was that I applied in 1938 to join the Volunteer Reserve. I’d been doing four and five nights a week at evening school during the preceding months and I was a bit below standard as far as health was concerned. Anyhow, during the period in which I was improving my level of health which was during Christmas ‘38 up until the war was declared in September I used to go out for a run early morning, half past six or thereabouts and do about three, three and a half miles and come back. Have breakfast. Dress appropriately and go off to central London to work. On the commencement of hostilities between Germany in September ‘39 the Air Ministry sent back all the, I suppose it was all of them, certainly my papers came back with a general advice to make another application. Well, it wasn’t long before my call up number came so I applied in the appropriate form and I was accepted to go into the air force as a navigator. I don’t know why I particularly chose that from being a pilot but it held a fascination for me. This happened early 1940 and from thence on, after initial working during the day as a, as an ordinary airman. AC2 as we were called. Aircraftsman second class. I improved my health no doubt and no end and eventually we were taken off just what was ground defence. There being such a rush of people joining the air force that they had to farm us out onto other duties for the first few months. We then entered the regular course to become navigators. The first amount of work was common to all trades, flying trades, in the air force, to get us all up to a general standard of education. And after that we then became part of the Empire Air Scheme I suppose you would call it and I was posted to an ITW which was an Initial Training Wing for basic education on navigation. It wasn’t very detailed at all but it got us into the right sort of preparation level. And after some twelve — twelve to fourteen weeks, I suppose it would be. We were all told to pack up and we were then en-trained and taken up to Scotland, put onto a boat and we went to Iceland. And from there we got on to an armed merchant cruiser, I think it was and we were taken over to Canada where we were trained for the particular trades that we’d been allocated. Mine being the navigation and associated items. We trained at various stations around Canada. The planes we flew there of course was the Avro Anson and the training crew were the captain of the aircraft. He had a wireless operator as his regular crewman and had two trainee navigators — which I became, with another man. And we went through the whole course of navigation training which I think was something like three months. And we then had a certain amount of leave and we were then taken on for another four weeks on training particularly with reference to the stars and sites and the like. And then we were posted to another aerodrome entirely which was, in this case, run by the Canadian Air Force and had a bombing and gunnery course thrown in of some weeks so that by the time we came out we were known as observers rather than just navigators. And, as such, having completed the bomb aiming course and the like we then were en-trained back to the east coast of Canada and brought back to the UK. I’m not sure whether it was called UK in those days but we came back and landed at Liverpool and were immediately transferred down to the south coast where we were at a reception centre. Now, do you want me to further on that line? AS: Yes, please but can I ask you first why did you join the RAF? GM: Ah. Well, I suppose we had Hendon Aerodrome which was only a few miles away from us as I live in Wembley. The other side it would be from now but there was a little group of us all living in the same road and we all went to the same school. And aeroplanes were buzzing around the Hendon area a fair bit of the time and I suppose we recognised the various makes and patterns and we became interested in the flying and we used to, on a Saturday morning quite often we used to cycle over to Hendon. And there was also another aerodrome called Stag Lane I think it was and we used to stand around the edge of the airfield. Behind a hedge I expect. Not on the actual field itself. And used to watch the planes taking off with the owner pilots there. For an entertaining day I suppose. But certainly, we enjoyed watching the planes and we did gain a fair bit of knowledge about them. Even as youngsters. From, yes, eleven twelve onwards. AS: Was your father in the First World War? GM: Not as such. He was in the building trade. He used to be in charge of the whole site and all the work that was going on. I suppose you would call him a foreman or a general foreman. But certainly, it was one which required considerable skill. He had to familiar with all the various trades and I, perhaps got my interest in surveying from him. I can’t say. It just happened. AS: So, you’d been trained in, mostly in Canada, and you’re now back on the south coast at a reception centre and you’ve trained to be an observer. GM: Yes. AS: So, you can do the job of map — GM: As a navigator. AS: Navigator. GM: Yeah. And bomb aimer and also, we had some experience on using firearms. Also, in the form of the turret in the aircraft. They were rather primitive in the beginning but they did improve no end during the war. AS: Ok. Please carry on. GM: Well, having got back from Canada I was then posted to an aerodrome in the Midlands and I’m trying to think of the name. Lichfield. That was it. and we were then, we were there to become experienced in flying in the weather conditions which we could expect in this country and in Europe. In Canada we were much further south and the weather was much warmer and more pleasant. But we had to get used to flying in winter. And at the OTU the Operational Training Unit was there purely to bring us up to speed in the conditions in which we would be expected to fly in over Europe. After quite some weeks. It could be six. Six to eight weeks. Perhaps a little bit more. One was then posted to a squadron. And during that training period in this country then of course you met pilots, air gunners, bomb aimers and the like and you formed up in crews so that as we were flying Wellingtons at that time then the number in the crew was five. Or if you had two pilots — one a second pilot then of course it would be six. And I was posted to 103 Squadron with the rest of my crew which was in Lincolnshire. Rather north. And after a fortnight or so of familiarisation with the area and the conditions in, we started as a crew on our operations. First of all, with an experienced operational pilot and our own captain, as we referred to him, played second fiddle to a certain extent. He was the one who was getting the most instruction. And the navigator as well. The gunners had a certain amount of additional training but there was nothing other than the targets being towed by other aircraft as their object of firing at. Anyhow, we got through the early days and started operating against some targets in Germany. That went on until, let’s see, wait a minute [pause] I must have gone to the squadron somewhere around about April or May and strangely enough we were flying Wellingtons there as well as we had done on the, at the training. And then there was a change in the aircraft. The Wellington 1Cs were withdrawn and we were fitted up with Halifax which were Halifax 2s. I think they were. They were four-engined aircraft. More sophisticated in the equipment which we had to learn about. We started coming across the Gee box and all other bits and pieces which were more modern than we had been experiencing. Then we continued after a brief period of training to operate on the, with the new aircraft. Four-engined aircraft. And this did not last very long. About two or three months. Perhaps. Let’s see. It would be [pause] about four months. And we were on the first thousand bomber raids which took place in the middle of 1942. And we survived those ok and went on operating and when I got to somewhere about ten or eleven we were then transferred, as I say, on to the four-engined aircraft. They were, they were ok for flying. They probably weren’t quite the standard of the Lancaster in performance but they certainly were very effective. And that was Ok for a while until we were sent out on one particular raid. This would be the [pause] about the 4th of October 1942 and we hit trouble having bombed the target and making our way from it. A JU110 latched onto our tail and we had a little conversation as a crew. Shall we open fire on him? He seemed to be just following us rather closely at the back and I imagine he was waiting for us to get away from the town and when we got to open country he would probably let us have it. Anyhow, we opened fire on him. Whether we did any damage or not I’ve no idea but certainly we had ammunition flying all around us and we were set on fire in the two inboard engines of the aircraft. And the pilot had done his best to manoeuvre out of the stream of fire but the chap who was firing at us in the German plane obviously was well experienced and he just sank down out of the sight of the mid upper gunner. The rear gunner had a view of him but he was hurt in the initial opening fire from the German plane and it rather put him out of action. And as I say we, we had three or four attempts at shooting at us by the German plane. The fires in the two engines just, just got worse. There was nothing that could be done about it so it was a just a question of baling out which we had a procedure for which we followed and one after the other, I was one of the first so I don’t know exactly what happened to all the others but from visits and talks with the three survivors other than myself I rather gather that it was a disastrous period. The plane was going down fast and it was for everybody to get out of their particular position. More or less following the order in which we’d had dummy runs on. So, having got out of the target area the plane was going down towards the ground at a fair speed and we crossed the target just over ten thousand feet which had been quite low but it was suitable for the occasion. We were under two thousand feet I think when we started to bale out and I was fortunate. I came out of the hole in the floor of the plane, in the nose, because I was sitting on top of it and having lifted the seat there was just this hole there so I went out of there straight away. I didn’t want to hold anybody else up. And I pulled the cord on the parachute and I was one of the lucky ones. It opened and I soon found myself heading towards the ground at a very modest pace with the parachute up above me and swinging about a bit. But the strange thing was that having been in the noise of the four engines of the aircraft for some hours previously and then get the noise of the enemy fire coming through the fuselage around us it was amazing that nobody other than the rear gunner had been hit. But anyhow, as I say, having jumped then I lost contact with all the other members of the crew. The plane carried on going down. Losing height quite quickly . In quite a short time I saw the trees sort of rushing towards me. Which really was an exaggeration because the parachute was open. And I crashed in to the top of trees and I sort of went down through the branches and the canopy of the parachute of course got caught up amongst on all the tops of the tree. It turned out that I had landed in an orchard of some considerable size. The trees must have been fairly old because they were tall. And I came to a sudden halt in the harness. The canopy of the parachute spread over the tops of the trees and we were swinging and in the darkness, I had no idea how high I was above the ground. It could be inches. It could be feet. Anyhow, I sort of gathered my thoughts and I thought — I tried feeling about with my feet, swinging a bit but it did no good. The only thing to do is just to press the lock on the parachute harness and see what happens. So, I did and I fell. About twelve inches fortunately. It could have been several feet but certainly I was very lucky and as I say I fell about twelve inches and landed on my feet quite comfortably. The harness was left swinging in the breeze there and the instructions are to pull the parachute and its accoutrements to the ground and bury it if you can. Well, there were dogs barking close by so I thought — I tried and pulled it and of course the noise of the branches breaking and crackling and what have you set them off barking so I thought well this is no good. So, I stopped that and they stopped barking. Anyhow, I tried again a moment or two later to do it rather quietly but it was no good. They heard it and they barked again. So, I thought I’d leave it. So, I gathered myself together and thought, ‘Right. Let’s get away from here.’ So, do you want me to go on in the same vein? Ok. I was in what appeared to be an orchard hence some of the trees and I saw that I was next to a hedge at the edge of the orchard so I went through it into a field which ran down hill to a degree. Yeah. It was a comfortable slope down and I got out of the orchard and the adjoining field and I became aware, with dogs barking, there was a farmhouse close by. So, I thought, well I’d keep away from there, for some reason or other. I didn’t know where I was even though I was the navigator we had made so many change in course in the battle with the German fighter that I couldn’t be sure to within ten miles where we were. Perhaps even more. And down the slope and through a hedge and there was a road which also ran further on downhill so that’s what I took naturally rather than climbing. And having sort of gone past a building, a house of some sort on my left as I was going down the road with five or six people standing there looking towards the target area which was a bright light in the sky. I just walked past them and nobody said anything and I then realised, having gone another hundred yards or so that I was walking north. I thought, is this a good thing? And I was resolved that if I was going to go north I’d got a coastline up there and how the hell was I going to get over that? All I could go to would be Denmark which I could walk around to I suppose — which wasn’t going to be any help. And I couldn’t get to a neutral country that way so it was, the alternative was to go to either Switzerland or Spain. They were both south of me and I didn’t think that it was going to be much good going to Switzerland because you would then be interned. And so I set off on my walk and crossed country largely and that night I suppose the shooting down had taken place somewhere around about half past ten, 11 o’clock at night and so I was in the early hours of the morning and I had time to get away from the place where the parachute would eventually be found and also, with the plane going down it was going to hit the ground before long. And I got myself on to a track which rose slightly and when I got to the top I could see a fire about a mile and a half or two miles away from me which was obviously was our plane which had hit the ground and already being alight it set the whole thing on fire. So, I couldn’t guess what had happened to the other people in the crew. I had no means of contact. So, I thought, ‘Right. This is it.’ And fortunately, the sky was clear less and I could pick out the North Star. From the North Star I could get myself an angle of somewhat south westerly direction and I thought, ‘Right. This is the way to go.’ So, I picked up my marks and started walking. Strangely enough I hadn’t gone very far when I heard somebody else rustling around in the field. They’d got some sort of crop. I don’t know what the crop was but it certainly had shrubbery about knee level so it could have been cabbages. It could have been anything else. Anyhow, having heard somebody else moving in amongst it I stopped and knelt down so that I wouldn’t have a, anybody wouldn’t, sort of looking up wouldn’t see me so I knelt down and the other person walking, they stopped too. And I thought, ‘That’s strange.’ Anyhow, it was all quiet for a minute or two so I thought, ‘Right. Try again.’ So I started my walk again which was in a general south westerly direction across country and I heard the other person start walking again. I thought well, I don’t know. I wonder if it’s a border guard or something like that that’s on a lookout. Anyhow, I just knelt down again and I stood out and the other person got fed up and I heard him walk away through the shrubbery or whatever the crop was. I never did find out for sure that it was another member of the crew. It could have been. But I didn’t think from the way the plane had been heading at the time that it was likely to be so but perhaps it was. I never did find out. And I continued walking and eventually I came to a roads. So I started to walk along the roads rather than stay on fields and what have you. It was easier walking and you got along much quickly. More quickly. At that time of the night there was nobody else about so I walked down the road. Always taking the direction of sort of south westerly. I had just the one thought in mind. Get to Spain. So, whatever came in between was just luck and we’d deal with it as we came. Got along. So, I continued in that. Walking along roads and what have you the rest of that night and then it started to get light. This is, I have to do something about this. I was on a road and there were some houses intermittently along the plots in between which were built on. Anyhow, I thought, well the thing is not to be out in the open view when it gets light. I was very fortunate. I went between two houses to the fields behind and I found several hedges and the like and there in one of them was a copse of trees on a bank sort of arrangement. And so, I thought, ‘Yeah that looks alright.’ So, I got in to the, under the trees. There was a lot of shrubbery at ground level so I found that if I sort of sat down on the ground then I was well hidden and what else was around me I didn’t know. All I knew I was out of sight to a degree. It was getting just that little bit lighter so I sort of sat down and I must have gone off to sleep. This was October and I suppose it was getting light around about 7 o’clock or thereabouts or perhaps a little bit earlier. Anyhow, I went off to sleep and I came to life again and I could hear traffic, to a degree. And I sort of poked my head up from my hideaway there and I could see that just beyond me there was what apparently was a farm road and it was being used by the workers to get to the farm or come away and go into the various fields. I was fortunate that I had this cover. I stayed there all the hours of daylight. I saw the goings on of the farm and it’s, I suppose somewhere around about sixish or a bit later it got dark and I thought, ‘Oh well, now’s the time to move,’ so I set off on my second night of travel. And this became the rule of thumb, so to speak, for the next two or three days. I did have some emergency rations with me and they were sort of supplied in an escape tin I think they used to call them. They had concentrated foods like chocolates and the like in there. There was a nothing that was superfluous. It was all good stuff and so I carried on walking at night for probably four nights after the initial one by which time I had got a fair way. I don’t know how much or how far I travelled at night. I wasn’t a rapid walker. I used a fairly steady pace but I kept out of sight during the daylight hours. It was always a problem just before dawn to find somewhere to hide for the next twelve or fourteen hours. And I was lucky. In one place I found a cave I suppose you’d call it. A digging anyhow in a bank. It was a cut-out area I could sort of get into and sit there and it was also protected by shrubs and bushes and what have you. So that was a lucky find and I did manage to keep going as far as the food was concerned by having the odd biscuit or what have you. Because I had additional items like that in my pocket. I had anticipated, I don’t know why or anything like that that this sort of event would happen. So I tended when we were on ops to put extra bits and pieces in my pockets and the like. Such as a few biscuits and what have you but it certainly was nowhere near enough. Anyhow, this went on until my last stay over daylight hours. After that initial part of my movements was in a town or certainly a large village centre and I’d spotted a house which had been bombed. It looked as if it had got fire bomb damage. The windows were blown out and the like. And I saw that as I was passing through this village. And then I hadn’t got too far, having got beyond that point and it started to rain and I found myself getting fairly wet so I thought right. I’ll go back to this bombed house. I went in there and it seemed to me it smelled rather as if it was dry and went upstairs and it certainly was. There was no windows in there but the roof was sufficient to keep the inside of the house dry. So again, as had been my practice then I did get a bit of sleep and when I woke up I found the village had come to life as other places had come to life and I sort of looked out of the, one of the window openings and I could see that I was what was obviously the centre road of a small town. There were shops and people going shopping there. And I thought to myself, ‘My goodness me. I wonder where I am.’ Anyhow, I made sure that I didn’t display myself at all but I stayed up on the first floor of that bombed house during the day. At lunchtime it got a bit dodgy because children came out of school and a couple of boys were having a little game down below on the ground floor. Anyhow, they got tired of that and they went off. Much to my relief. They didn’t, as far as I could tell, attempt to come up the stairs where I was on the first floor. As happened nobody else came in. It dried up during the day having rained during the previous night and when it got dark I went off. Most people had, the shops had closed by then, it was fairly dark. There was no lights or anything on display of course and I managed to get out of the small town without being picked up or noticed particularly because I was still in uniform and the only difference were that I had taken the badges of rank. I was a flight sergeant at the time and there was nothing else except my battle dress which I flew in. I had discarded the harness and what have you of the parachute as I previously mentioned and I went on out of town. Anyhow, I sort of ran in to the rain problem again and this time I got wet so, considerably so. This is no good. I’m short of food. I’m not performing too well and I’m wet and cold and dispirited. Anyhow, I turned around and I thought, ‘Well I’ll go back to the bombed-out house and dry off. And tomorrow is another day.’ Well, it didn’t work out like that. On the way back it dried up to a certain extent. I don’t suppose I’d actually gone much more than a mile. Two miles away from my hiding place and so I was heading back there. I went through another small village and I saw a house. It was houses on both sides of the road and I saw a house and I saw a chink of light up on the first floor which would obviously, would be a bedroom. And I thought, ‘Well there are people there. I wonder —’ I pondered the pros and cons of knocking and see if I could get some help and I didn’t know at all whether they were hostile or whether they would be friendly. AS: At this stage you were in France. GM: No. I was still in Belgium. AS: In Belgium. GM: Yes. And so, I was just on the right side of the Belgian Holland border so I didn’t have to get, get across the border there. So, I was still in Belgium. And – AS: Did you have a compass? GM: Oh yeah. Oh yes. Yeah, I had one. Yes. I had a button as a compass. AS: They had — didn’t you have two buttons that were compasses? GM: Well, I had one. AS: One. GM: Certainly, I had one but it was — no. it couldn’t have been a shirt button. It must have been the battledress button. Anyhow, I had one. It was part of a general sort of hand-outs of escape gear that we were issued with and I largely used the stars to make an initial assessment of where I was going. Certainly, where one gets sufficient light then the compass was a help and I got a feeling I might have had two. One was a fluorescent. I’m a bit hazy on that but there we are. So — oh yes. I was pondering as to whether to knock on this house or not. Anyhow, I came to a decision. It was still fairly early in the evening. It was dark. Blackout was being imposed and, in any case, so I went across the road and I banged on the door with the knocker. What have you. And this was completely unexpected by the people because the window above swung open and a man’s head poked out, ‘Qui est la?’ So I responded as best I could. My French never was very good. And I heard him grunt and the window closed with a slam and I heard him coming down stairs [knocking noise] like that with footsteps. The door swung open and there was this rather short man, pretty much the height that I am now I suppose [laughs] and he looked at me and I showed him my battledress and I showed him my wings and he didn’t say anything he just beckoned me in. And I followed him and he took me into their sitting room or whatever it was, where there was a fire in the room. It was a grate sort of arrangement. You know, a slow burning one which is on all the time and he spoke to me in French. I had sufficient to tell him that I was RAF and I could show him my wings and badges of rank and he seemed to be quite delighted. He pointed to a chair. And his wife came down and she sort of grasped the situation pretty quickly and they immediately fed me which after a fun five days was very acceptable. And I must admit with the warmth of the room and the food I dropped off to sleep. I don’t think it was very long but it was just enough to take the edge off of the tiredness. Probably half an hour or so. In the meantime, they had been busy and they got in touch with the local priest and I’d woken up and made myself as presentable as I could and there was a knock on the door. And they obviously were expecting him because the local priest did come in and he came up, beaming all over his face, put his hand out and said, ‘Goodbye.’ So I thought, ‘Crikey I’ve had my chips this time.’ Anyhow, he was very pleasant and we did get on. He had a fair bit of English and I had a certain amount French and we sat there and he sort of found out who I was and what I was which he was entitled to do of course and he said, ‘Tonight you come with me.’ I said, ‘Ok.’ I was in their hands. I had sort of appealed for help from them and he was the help. So we said goodbye to the man and his wife and I understood they had a boy, a son, who was about, somewhere around about the age of ten asleep upstairs and he was already in bed and asleep by the time I called on them. So, he wasn’t a complication. I don’t know what they would have done if he’d woken up and come down and seen me there. It would have been a very difficult situation for them. So, anyhow, it didn’t happen but I was aware that it could have done. And the priest and I went off and he came from another village so we set off at 11 o’clock, 11:30 at night during the hours when you’re not supposed to be about. Except that he, being the local priest, he had permission to attend his parishioners at any time when other people were supposed to be off the road. And we went out of the village, along some lanes and then came into another village and lo and behold there was the church. And he said, ‘This way,’ or words to that effect and we crossed over from the front of the church, about fifty sixty yards perhaps. I’m not sure. I wasn’t very good at guessing distances. And he took me into his home and despite the late hour his housekeeper was still up and she came and welcomed me there. I thought, ‘Crikey. They’re taking a chance.’ But it was alright and I’d already had something to eat and I’d had a drink and they now made sure I had some sleep. They took me upstairs. There was the bed. One of these typical continental beds which were all sort of like, ballooned. Puffed up. Anyhow, it was very comfortable and I got rid of most of my clothes and there we are. I slept on a bed for the rest of that night which was probably midnight or thereabouts when it started. And I was, I was awake moderately early but when I sort of got up the priest was already out on his rounds so I must have overslept a fair bit. And the housekeeper had me downstairs and gave me some breakfast which was nectar. There was nothing, nothing I could do other at that time. I just couldn’t go on out in broad daylight. I was in battledress. And eventually he came back, the priest came back and he had done his round. Whatever it was and he said, ‘You’ll be moving on tonight.’ Or words to that effect. And I said, ‘Oh that’s great.’ And we, yes, we spent a bit of time getting to know each other. He was a very pleasant man and we had some lunch. He said, ‘I’ve got other duties to perform so, ‘I’ll leave you but we have a visitor to come and see you,’ and he went off out. Where he went to or what he did I’ve no idea but shortly after he left then there was a bang on the door and a lady walked in. About forty I would say she was. Very attractive and her English was excellent. It really was. And so, the housekeeper brought, I think she brought us some tea in, I think. Something like that. We had a drink in anyhow. She then chatted to me for an hour, an hour and a half and it wasn’t just a chat just to pass the time. It certainly was, the intention was to find out I was on the level and not a plant of any sort. So I learned a certain amount about them and she certainly found out more about me. Anyhow, she said, ‘Well, nice to have met you. I’ll be off now to my family.’ And by 4 o’clock or so she was gone. She hadn’t been gone long and the priest turned up again. And I thought, ‘Ah they’ve passed me. They think I’m on the level. That I’m not a plant of any sort.’ And he said, ‘I’ve got a man coming to pick you up to take you into town.’ Or words to that effect. And so, we passed the time of day getting to know each other a bit more. [unclear] I seem to remember the name was. And sure, enough a man came in carrying a coat and he said, ‘The coat is for you.’ I thought, ‘Yeah that’ll cover my uniform up.’ And so we made our, said our goodbyes and we didn’t know when we would ever see each other again if ever but it was very amicable and I went off with this stranger. A little man. He was insignificant in attracting public attention and I hoped I was the same. And we went down. The bus came. We got on. And we’d arranged that he would get on on the front. I would then get on and stand at the back and he would be in the front and when we got to our destination he would get off and I would then follow him but getting off the bus on my own it didn’t — so nobody realised that we were together. So, yes, I was on the back of the bus standing up and we went about half a mile and we stopped outside some barracks and there was a group of, a small group of officers and there was, obviously one was the senior. I don’t know what rank he was. He looked as if he might be a captain or a major or something like that. Equivalent to that but the others all sort of stood to attention and saluted as he got on the bus which I thought was rather amusing. Anyhow, there was one or two other people got on the bus as well of ordinary soldier rank because they had moved away when the officer got on. And we started off. We stopped a few times. The bus got more crowded and we got more crushed up between each other in the back, top end of the bus. Back end of the bus. And there was I. I was surrounded by German soldiers and there was several officers amongst them. Anyhow, eventually we kept going into town and which was obviously a much bigger place than I’d been staying in that night. That was only a bit of a suburb. And I saw my guide, companion, get up. He didn’t look in my direction or anything like that. He just got up at the stop and got off so I did the same. I had to push my way through the Germans to get to the front of the bus, get off and he was waiting for me. And we just sort of nodded and we started walking off together and the bus went on its way with all of its people in it. We walked up a road which was adjoining the bus stop. You know, it went up. It was hilly but it wasn’t particularly steep and we stopped at the front of a house. There was, both sides of the road had houses down them and they were in — they were what we would call terraces. A terraced road. Terraced road. Perhaps dozens all in one continuous building — and rang the bell. The door swung open. There was a lady there and she looked at us and I’m certain she knew the guide. He’d done it before. Nothing was said. We just went in and she pointed us to go down the corridor and the man went away having collected the coat that I was wearing. They’d obviously got a use for it again sometime. So I was then back down to battledress. The ordinary grey one. And the lady said, ‘Come with me.’ She was quite good on English and she led me upstairs and pointed me to go into a room and there was a bloke standing in there in civvies. I looked at him. He looked at me and he said, ‘My God. Another one.’ And I then sussed from that that he was ex-RAF too which so it proved. Except that he was, he’d been a prisoner of war and he’d got away when he was sent out to a farm and apparently, he’d made no promises about not trying to get away or anything like that. They just sent him out and he went and he saw the opportunity and left. And I was now meeting him in somebody’s upstairs bedroom in a family house. And in actual fact the village which, the town which I was now in was Liege in Belgium. And it was quite busy. A lot of people. A lot of houses and what have you. And so, I stayed with this lady and it turned out she had a sister and the two, two ladies were part of an escape route operation and I’d struck oil. I really had. The man’s name. He was a sergeant or a flight sergeant. I’m not sure. He should have been a flight sergeant but he was already in civilian clothes so I didn’t find out for sure. Michael Joyce. And he was Irish and he was a regular in the RAF and he had done a runner from a prisoner of war situation and he’d got as far as this particular house and he was on the same jaunt as I was. Trying to get back to the UK. We travelled together right back to the UK. How much further do you want me to go? AS: Carry on. It’s fascinating. Do you want to have a break for a minute? GM: Just for a minute. Yeah. Yeah. [recording paused] AS: I’ve started so we’re now re-starting after a break. GM: Yes. AS: Ok. This is part — part two. GM: Two. AS: Yeah. GM: Yes. AS: Ok. Do, do carry on, Gordon. GM: Yeah. I was saying it’s difficult to remember some names but perhaps they’ll come to mind. Anyhow, the two ladies, the sisters, lived in this house where I met Michael Joyce and we stayed there two or three days at the most. I have a vision of, on the first of the three days that I had there of going somewhere. I’m not sure whether I went somewhere or whether somebody came to me. Anyhow [pause] no, they came. They came to me and we went out in to the back, sort of a, you couldn’t call it a garden. It was a yard, I suppose, at the back of a house and he took some photographs of me and I understood that these were to be for the, an identity card which was necessary to have if you were travelling. And it didn’t take many minutes but he obviously did it as prescribed and I stayed there at that particular house two and a half days or thereabouts and in the meantime they prepared an identity card of sorts with my photographs on it. Ausweis or something like that I seem to remember they called it. And they had up to date pictures of me and I had, yes, another, something on. I wasn’t in the standard battledress uniform at the time. I must have put a coat of some sort on. This man went off and he said the photos would be ready shortly and so, it proved. They produced a document. An identity card, to my mind and sure enough there was my photograph like this, on this particular card. And so that was given to me so that if we were investigated at any time it would be there to support me. And we stayed on and we didn’t go out. We stayed in the house. Except perhaps we went out in the garden at the back. I say garden. It was little more than a yard but it was open air and then suddenly one of the ladies said, ‘You’re off today.’ And, ‘Oh. Right.’ She said, ‘After lunch.’ And that was it. This is what happened. We hadn’t got any accessories to carry. We just were there. I had, in the meanwhile, been fitted up with a suit which I kept for many years after that and eventually it was then passed on to somebody in the family. One of the youngsters who was growing up fast and he would be able to wear it for a short while and then he’d be too big for it but — which was rather strange because I was standing nearly six foot two at that time. Anyhow, it fitted well enough. And so, we came lunchtime on this day of departure from the safe house and we had some lunch and then there was a bang on the door and a youngish lady turned up. A mature lady to some extent. Forties I would say. It seemed to be about the working age of many of the helpers that we saw eventually. And we got our bits and pieces together. Michael — Michael Joyce and myself, we went downstairs and out in to the street and we had this lady with us and we just, in our borrowed clothes, ambled down as if we had got not a care in the world which, in actual fact, I don’t think we really did have. If we got picked up then we would be POWs. Prisoners of war. If a guide was with us the most likely thing that would happen would be — shot. So the danger really rested on the shoulders of the person that we were accompanying. Anyhow, we went down and to the bus stop. Waited for a bus. And we went off and eventually we came to a railway station. I used to be able to put a name to it. It’s gone at the moment. Anyhow, we found that when we got there that the train that we were expecting to catch had already gone. So, we went into the waiting room, sat down and we waited for the next train which was some little time. During that time then other people, passengers came and caught whatever trains they were expecting to catch. And then we started to fill up with soldiers. German soldiers of course. A couple of officers came into the waiting room where we were sitting and they were being a bit officious I thought. Perhaps they were on duty with the other ranks that had also arrived so that when the train came in then there was quite a large number of German soldiers waiting for it. We had a few moments in which we weren’t over happy with the closeness of the opposition so to speak but we acted like some, just ordinary civilians waiting for a train. And as I say, it pulled in and we went up and walked up along the platform a bit and got away from the military reserved section and got into the carriage and there was already some people in the compartment. And Mike and I got in and sat down and the lady sat between us and the other people in the compartment and the train pulled off and away we went. And it was to be, yeah, a period of some speculation in which we sort of had periods in our own, each of us in our own minds we thought well, are we going to make it on here or aren’t we? Because this was our first venture of travelling any space or any length of time with other passengers. There was, I was sitting next to the — on the side of the compartment and opposite me was a lady. My vision of her now is very slim but she was well, she was probably in her late forties, fifties and she had a basket or bag with her and after the train had been going for some short time she then started to unpack her bag and she produced a meal for herself. Bread and cheese and sort of stuff like that that she offered around. And I just refused with signs more or less. ‘Non. Merci.’ Mike did the same and I’m not sure what the other passengers did but I don’t think she had any takers. Anyhow, she sat there and enjoyed her meal and there was no conversation between us and them or between themselves — the Belgian people, at all. Eventually some of them got off and some of them stayed on and we started to run into Brussels. And [pause] now, I’m getting a bit hazy about that. I think we ran straight in. Yes, that’s right, it was and slowed down and made one or two stops until we came to the terminus and obviously that was — which was in Brussels. And we then, of course, had to get out. We just followed the lady to the pedestrian precinct which adjoined the station itself and we had to wait. [pause] GM: Now, I haven’t thought about this for a long time. [pause] GM: I’m sorry about this. Yes, we came out. Eventually we came out of the station. The lady and Mike and me. So where did we go? Can you switch off for a minute? AS: Yes. I will. And I’ll, I’d like to change the battery on the machine as well. GM: Yes, whatever you – [recording paused] GM: Let’s make a start then. AS: Ok. So, part — part three then. GM: Yeah. AS: Yeah. Ok. Do carry on. GM: Right. And so, we arrived in Brussels but having got off the train we found that there was nobody waiting for we had missed the earlier train when we started the day’s journey. And we were now in Brussels and we had to take alternative action with nobody at the station. Our lady, who was conducting us said, ‘Wait here and I will telephone through,’ which she did and she said, ‘It’s alright. We now have got a short journey to make,’ which meant that we — Mike and I and the lady in question got ourselves to the right stop to pick up a bus. Which we did. Outside the station in Brussels. We didn’t go very far but certainly it could well have been as much as a mile and we — the bus pulled up and the lady conducting us got off and we followed distantly so that we didn’t implicate her more than necessary. We crossed the road and she said, ‘It’s alright. We are now on our way.’ And sure enough, within quite a after a short walk we came to one of the roads with houses on both sides again as they were, most of them were in the town and she knocked on the front door of what was a flat or a type of accommodation. As is in most cases there the sleeping compartments were on the floor above. Like in a mini house. And the, having rung the bell, the door swung open and a young girl came and looked out and she looked somewhat as if she’d got no idea who we were which was quite right. She didn’t. But she spotted the lady with us and she said, ‘Oh hello auntie. Here you are.’ And we were then ushered into this house and we met the girl’s, she was practically a young lady by then, met the parents and we were well and truly welcomed. There was other members of the family there as well. We gathered that we were expected to stay there just as a temporary measure for the rest of the afternoon and early evening and that we would be moving on before it was bedtime. So, we settled down to a very pleasant sort of social event. And eventually we were told that it was time for us to move on and somebody else came and picked us, picked us up. I can’t remember for sure who it was but certainly we had a guide accompanying us. And we left the family regretfully because they had been good company to have us at such short notice. We get on a bus again and we turned towards the centre of the city and having reached what was obviously going to be our destination we got off and a short step away from the bus stop we turned sharply into an apartment block. And we had a lift to take us up. I’m not sure what floor we were on but I’ve a feeling it was the second floor up rather than the first. It wasn’t right down on the ground, certainly. But yes, I think it was that one. And we didn’t know what we were coming to but the gentleman who was with us — was it a man? Yes, now I’ve got a feeling we’d had an exchange. We reached a door. He put the key in and let us and sure enough this was a letted property and we were on an upper floor. And as we walked in to the flat he said, ‘Please don’t make any noise. We do have Gestapo people living just on the same floor here.’ Whether that was true or just to warn us not to not make much noise I’ve no idea but it certainly had the effect. And he said, ‘Right. Well you’re here for the night,’ and what have you. Breakfast and the like and I’ll see you then and with that he left us and Mike and I had the flat to ourselves. And yes we made use of it as directed and we, we spent the night there. At a reasonable hour then the following day then we got up and washed and shaved and dressed and by that time our guide who’d been with us the previous evening again arrived and he said, ‘Well, we have a little way to go.’ So, we hadn’t got any luggage with us as far as I can recall except for just necessary pieces of equipment for a shave and a wash and those sort of early morning preparations. And we went down and again we were on a bus. Just the three of us. That’s Mike and myself and the guide and we did get across a fair bit of Brussels towards a railway station and when we got there we found that we had plenty of time so we had a little while to, sort of, look around us and try and behave in the manner as the other people who were travelling and not to stand out. Eventually we were [pause] that’s right, when we got off the bus we then had a walk up a hill in a road which was divided to get one or two lanes. Wide lanes in each case and with a series of plants and trees down between them. So, it was like a two separate roads in the event as indeed it was because they were going in opposite directions to each other. And we went to a particular house. It was one in a whole row and going uphill so it was quite a pleasant road of changing levels. And we didn’t go very far before he, again we found ourselves knocking on the front door of a property. Here we were welcomed in and within a short time we were being introduced to the lady of the property. The name escapes me entirely at the moment but certainly it was a well to do establishment and we were taken upstairs and right to the top where there was almost an individual flat in which we could — certainly was set up for us. For two or three people to stay for a short period. And so we were then in quarters which certainly were very pleasant. We didn’t get out whilst we were there. We were in the premises all the time and the meals came and we found it very pleasant indeed despite the fact that we were in Belgium and it was occupied and it was a danger to the other people to have us there. But when the evening came we were very pleased to be invited downstairs to the lady that owned the property and lived in the property and we found that a meal had been prepared and we were having, what you might say, dinner. But it certainly was straightforward food such as was available for everybody there and we had a very pleasant evening. We even, in the latter part of the evening, had the radio on with the British tuned in, British radio tuned in and we heard the 9 o’clock news. What the news was I really can’t tell you. But certainly, we sat and listened to that just as if we were sitting at home and listening to it on the radio. We then had a very comfortable bed facing us and we were much pleased and appreciative of the owner’s entertainment. Not only food but radio and yeah, we swapped news and opinions for quite some little time. It was — it was in actual fact quite an enjoyable evening and undoubtedly we should at some time find the opposite but it was much appreciated. The next, the next day we were within the premises and I seem to think it wasn’t until the second day that we had the news that we were again moving on and in this case it was another train journey and we — our destination would be Paris which was quite a distance for us to take on in one hop, so to speak. Anyhow, they arrived and we had a very early breakfast and we left the house quite early morning and walked down to the international station. And we were accompanied by men we’d already met and we went on time. I seem to recall that it was still, it was still subdued light. I don’t think it was particularly dark but it certainly was not a bright, bright daylight. It was in between. Anyhow, so we got down to the departure station and took the train. There appeared to be — yes, an arrangement. The tickets were all organised for us and all we had to do was just be there. So we got on the train and whatever the time was, it probably was about 8 o’clock in the morning I would imagine or thereabouts the train pulled out of Brussels station and we headed with the end of that particular part of the journey was to be in Paris. This obviously was going to involve us in getting across the border between the two countries. The train was pretty well full and we did keep ourselves fairly quiet. There was a few undertone comments between Mike and myself and the time passed. And eventually the train slowed down and came to a halt and we did what everybody else did. We got off the train and it was — until it was empty. You got your baggage such as it was and we then followed the general flow of people down the length of the platform into a controlled area where we had to pass through the normal customs and border procedure. Mike and I were split up. He went through. And our guide, he went through. He more or less showed us to behave and what was necessary by example. Not by being particularly close to us but we kept an — I kept an eye on Mike and this bloke and Mike kept an eye on him for his own purpose. I was rather, sort of taken aback by having got through the first stage and turned in to a large room in which there was a number of customs officers. I think they were seated. And that was alright because I could see what other people were doing and I sort of followed the same procedures and I was taken aback by the presence of the German army with machine guns held at a ready — ready position. Not just slung over their shoulder or anything like that. But it was, they certainly were there for a purpose. Anyhow, I took my turn with the customs officer sitting down. He asked me a couple of questions. I’m not sure what they are now. In fact, I don’t remember for sure at all. And I must have been satisfactory. I nodded when it was appropriate and he sort of looked me up and down. He did his part of the job. I got my papers back and passed on. And I was asked if I’d got anything to declare and well, I hadn’t got anything other than what I was dressed up in really and with a, ‘No,’ they waved me on. And with a sigh of relief I walked out of that part of the building into the open air where there more soldiers but they were not interested in me and certainly I was fast wanting to get away from them. So we, Mike was up ahead of me and we were following and he was following the guide so I followed them and when we got back to the right carriage on the train which had pulled through from Belgium into France we then found our seats and sat there waiting until everybody had got reloaded onto the train and we set off. It was a little bit of conversation on the train but I sort of, I don’t think Mike expressed any sort of interest in what was being said and so we had a comparatively easy trip through France to Paris and which, we sort of pulled in and, of course, everybody wanted to move out at the same time so it was no good wanting to get on your way or get out and be unnoticed but just behave normally like everybody else was and take your time going through the station. All we had to do was sort of carry what little luggage or coats or anything like that that we had which was minimal as far as I was concerned. I got quite a reasonable suit on. And our guide eventually went up to a group of people and we just ambled along, one behind the other so to speak and joined, joined the group. There was the usual sort of semblance of greetings and the like. It was here that we were split up. Mike was associated with another person to me and I was to be the guest of a very pleasant man. Was it Monsieur — Monsieur [unclear]? Anyhow, we immediately struck up a sort of accord and he was a typical Parisian and before long Mike had gone off with his particular new partner and I with mine. We went down into the Underground and he did the necessary purchasing of the tickets and what have you and I think we were [pause] we got off the, the Metro at a place known as Sevres Babylone and eventually got up to ground level and we then were in one of the main parts of Paris and we went through a number of streets and he said, ‘Here we are.’ The gentleman I was with had good English really and certainly better than my French which was handy and we came to an open sort of window. Near the front door and sitting at the window which was open, it being quite a nice day anyhow, was a lady and she recognising my companion and nodded. Looked at me. ‘Bonjour.’ We passed through the front door into the block of flats and there was a lift close by and we were way off up to the top very quickly where, having got out, and just a short step and we were in one of the flats at the top of the house and I was being introduced to Madame [unclear] and who was the wife of my leader, so to speak. And I stayed there with them for a couple of nights. Perhaps it was three. I’m not sure off-hand at the moment. I would have to perhaps see if I’d got a record of the days spent there. They were a charming Parisienne couple and I was [pause] the only thing was that they didn’t have two bedrooms so that I spent the one or two evenings I had with them I slept on a long sort of chaise longue piece of furniture in the sitting room. So that, they’d got quite decent accommodation but certainly not a second bedroom because they didn’t normally use one but certainly, during the war, they had quite a number of people who stayed there like me. They slept on the couch and it was very, very pleasant indeed. And I seemed to remember that the gentleman was an insurance agent as a means of being a family and earning a living because there was quite a number of callers who came. Obviously, they were all known to Monsieur [unclear]. And they didn’t hide the fact that I was there and with, one or two of them spoke with me during the, during the short business visit. So it wasn’t kept a secret. And on one particular day Monsieur [unclear] and I went out after breakfast and we were going to a circular walk I suppose you would call it. Whatever. Anyhow, we left the house and we did visit various places in Paris. Even some of the well-known high spots or historical spots. And the churches as well. On the way around we had to cross the Seine and we got nearly half way across when we met, coming towards us, a priest and it so happened that Monsieur [unclear] had some connection with this priest in the work of the church and so, we stood on the bridge over the river and chatted to him for a few minutes. And the priest was left in no doubt as to my identity and we finally shook hands and he went on to the south and we went on across the river up to the Arc de Triomphe and we went down the main road from there for quite some way. The Champs Elysee. And when we got to the appropriate point we turned off to the left, back over the river and back to what I can now, would now call lodgings and it was a half day, sort of outing which was most unexpected and most, most interesting. Whilst I was staying with them I did meet a number of other people and on a couple of occasions on different days then I was taken around the corner in the road there and into another block of flats and there up on to one of the upper floors and was introduced to the lady of the house and she had Mike as her guest and so that we did maintain contact. Mostly when we were in Paris. It was very pleasant meeting these people and they seemed to enjoy bucking the German presence there by really taking on quite a risky job of having escaped RAF people pass through their premises and through their lives. AS: Can I, can I suggest that — Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gordon Mellor. One Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Andrew Sadler Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-06 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMellorG151006 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Description An account of the resource Gordon Mellor grew up in London and was interested in aviation. He volunteered for the Air Force and trained as a navigator in Canada. On his return to the UK he and his crew were posted to 103 Squadron. Returning from an operation they were attacked by a night fighter and shot down, although Gordon baled out and landed in a tree. When he freed himself and landed on the ground, he set off to walk and, by tracking the North Star, set off in the general direction of Spain. He hid in various places during the daylight until, after a few days, he was inspired to knock on a door. He discovered he was in Belgium where the locals started the process that led to him being escorted through an escape line from Belgium to Paris and, eventually, home. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Belgium Canada Great Britain Spain England--Lincolnshire Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940 1942-10-04 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:54:50 audio recording 103 Squadron aircrew bale out bombing bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942) crash de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007) evading Halifax Halifax Mk 2 navigator observer Operational Training Unit RAF Elsham Wolds RAF Lichfield Resistance shot down training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/553/8818/PMellorG1501.jpg ec53d3c84b8db787d307d49e498fe698 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/553/8818/AMellorG160627.mp3 ef968aa3b9b455b4792ca4b2012f76c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mellor, Gordon Gordon Herbert Mellor G H Mellor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mellor, G Description An account of the resource Four oral history interviews with Gordon Mellor (1919 -2018, 929433, 172802 Royal Air Force). He trained in Canada as an observer and served as a navigator with 103 Squadron. He was shot down over Holland in 1942 but evaded capture. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-06 2016-06-07 2016-08-17 2016-08-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document GR: This is Gary Rushbrooke for the International Bomber Command Centre and today, the 27th of June 2016 I am with Flight Lieutenant Gordon Mellor at his home in Wembley, London. Thank you, Gordon. We’re in Wembley, London. Was you born in London? Are you a — GM: Oh yes. I —my place of birth was about, I should say, two miles away from here. Also, in Wembley but on the southern borders of the town. Whereas I’m living here in the northwest. GR: Right. And what year was that Gordon? What year? GM: Oh that was — GR: Roughly. GM: Well there’s nothing rough about it. I can tell you the moment almost. It was 1919. 1st of November being the actual date. And I don’t remember the situation but — GR: No. [unclear] GM: My memory does go back to about my second birthday or thereabouts. GR: That’s incredible. Do you have brothers and sisters? GM: Oh yes. I had a brother. He, strangely enough, was seventeen years older than me so he was born round about 1920, no, not 1920. 19 — GR: 01 or 02. GM: 02 or 03. GR: Yeah. Yeah. GM: Or thereabouts. Yes. But at the same time of the year in actual fact except that he was a few days later than me on the actual date. GR: In November. GM: Yes. GR: So, you grew up in Wembley. Went to school in Wembley. GM: I did go to school in Wembley until I was about thirteen. My interests were more practical perhaps than other people so I went to a technical college over at Acton at that age and I stayed there virtually three years. And my school friend I found was living within a half a mile of where I lived at that time and we chummed up and carried our relationship forward into the war years and eventually then his sister and I decided to make it a go and we were married during the war years. GR: Oh right. So, after college, if you was at college in Acton for, what was it, three years? GM: Well it wasn’t quite, it was a senior school. GR: Senior school. Yeah. GM: It wasn’t a college as such. No. GR: No. And you left there to go and work. GM: Oh, I had several jobs. Mainly connected with, I suppose, the building industry. My father and brother and other members of the family were all connected with that industry. And what was I going to say? Oh yes, my early experience was in offices of estate agent’s and people who were on the, I can’t say senior side because I was only a youngster then but the prospects were good. GR: Yeah. GM: As a surveyor. So, I eventually started work with of firm quantity surveyors in central London. And after the war I returned to that profession and qualified with the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. GR: Very good. But obviously you’d started work and war was on the horizon. GM: Indeed. GR: I presume in September ‘39 you were still at the chartered surveyors were you? Were you? GM: Oh yes. GR: Yeah. GM: Yes. I was working for a private organisation. It’s only in the post-war period that I went into the public service. GR: Yeah. GM: And certainly in the last, what —thirty five odd years or so I worked with the Greater London Council. GR: Right. When war broke out did you sort of decide there and then to join up or —? GM: Well, I was interested in aircraft from a young person. GR: Yeah. GM: It was the ‘in’ interest shall I put it of the boys who lived and went in the same road as I did and also went to the same schools. GR: Right. GM: And we did get a strong interest into flying and the RAF in particular. GR: Right. Was that an interest? Was it, was it Cobham’s Flying Circus or —? GM: No. No. GR: No. HM: It was RAF Hendon. GR: Which was obviously nearby isn’t it? Yeah. GM: Yeah. And also there was a private ‘drome as well. My goodness me. GR: Did you used to go up to Hendon then and watch the aircraft? GM: Yes. We used, yes, we used to go over to Hendon and get to a position round where you could see what was going on. Although we weren’t on their ground but we were as near as we could get. GR: To watch it. GM: To watch what was going on. GR: Yeah. GM: And there was also another aerodrome close by where [pause] the name of it escapes me at the moment. GR: It doesn’t matter. [unclear] So, it was — GM: De Havilland’s I think had got a factory there, in that area and their aerodrome was also used. GR: Not London — not London Colney. GM: No. GR: There was something there. I think that was the test place. So, it was an easy decision to volunteer for the Royal Air Force. GM: Oh yes. Yes. Indeed. GR: Yeah. GM: It was a main point of interest as far as us lads were concerned in that part of Wembley. Yeah. GR: And did your friends join up as well? GM: Yes. They either joined up or called up. GR: Yeah. GM: In the early days of war. But they went to army or navy. GR: Navy yeah. So, so can you remember where you joined up? Were you one of the ones who went to St John’s Wood and —? GM: Where did —? GR: Did you mention earlier you did some training at Uxbridge. No? GM: Yes I, yes, my first real connection was when I was called up in 1940. GR: Right. GM: Early in ‘40 and I reported to RAF Hendon as many other youngsters did and that’s where we started. GR: Yeah. Which was quite fitting considering you lived nearby. GM: Yes. Yes. GR: That’s quite good isn’t it? So, yeah. GM: Riding on the train and then out to where Hendon Aerodrome was. Yeah. GR: Yeah. Did you do your training in this country? Or was you sent abroad? GM: Yes. In actual fact there was a bit of a blockage in the training period and we were drafted out to various places. When I say we, there was about forty of us who were all called up together. And we were then posted out to various places and I was sent to [pause] Yeah. I haven’t thought about this for a long time. GR: No. It doesn’t matter. ‘Cause what did you decide to train as? It wasn’t a pilot was it? It was a — GM: No. I — GR: Navigator. GM: I was keen on the navigation. So I, yes, I volunteered for that and I was accepted for that purpose. Yes. GR: Yeah. GM: And —oh dear. Oh dear. GR: It doesn’t matter. Obviously training. You know, I’ve spoken to a lot of veterans and I think training followed the same — GM: Pattern. GR: Pattern all the way through. GM: Yes. Yeah. We had as I say, several months on general duties. GR: Yeah. GM: Because there was, seemed to be a bit of a blockage. More volunteers than they could cope with. GR: Cope with. GM: So we joined up and we did general duties in many ways. GR: Yeah. GM: And in my case then I was posted up to Norfolk and I was on ground defence for quite a time. GR: Oh right. GM: And during that time, of course, you did pick up a lot of general knowledge about living in the air force and it was all good useful stuff. GR: Yeah. Good. So, training, yeah ran its usual pattern when you started. And then — GM: Yes. I suppose so. GR: Where did you get posted to? GM: The first real training as far as flying was concerned was at Aberystwyth which was an ITW. GR: Yeah. GR: And we did the course there and a bit more because there was still something of a blockage. GR: Yeah. Right. GM: And from there we then were posted to the Midlands as a short stopping off place and then by boat. GR: Yeah. GM: We went via [pause] where did we go? Reykjavik in Iceland and then through to the east coast of Canada. GR: Right. GM: Once there then things got moving and we finished up at Port Albert which was a training aerodrome in Ontario. About a hundred and forty miles to the west of the main cities. GR: Yes. GM: In that area. GR: Yeah. Yeah. So, I presume life in Canada was slightly different to life in Britain. GM: Well. Yes. GR: Yeah. GM: Yes. It was. It was somewhat freer I think. GR: Yeah. GM: And of course, not having to cope with the blackout. That was quite an interesting period. GR: How long did you spend in Canada, Gordon? GM: About seven months I think. GR: Seven months. Yeah. GM: There was the basic navigation course which was twelve weeks. We then had a week’s leave and then we did a four weeks course [pause] to follow on the navigation. GR: Yeah. GM: And having completed that successfully as a group, we’d all been together since we arrived in Canada, we then went to bombing and gunnery school. GR: Right. GM: In another part of Ontario. By the Lakes. And we spent at least six weeks there. I have a feeling we overran a little bit. GR: Yeah. GM: But then it was time which you received your promotion as a sergeant and we had parade and this happened. There were a number of, a group of, I think it was about forty of us all together in two main, sort of, groups. And some of the [pause] in each group were granted immediate commissions and the others became NCOs. GR: Right. GM: Having got the passing out parade done then we were given tickets and travel paraphernalia and told to arrive in the east coast of Canada. We arrived close by and embarked to come back to the UK. GR: Right. GM: So, yes, I thought that we were treated very adequately. Being — having jumped from, what rank was I [pause] oh dear. Oh dear. Something below corporal up to sergeant. GR: Leading aircraft — LAC1? GM: Leading aircraftsman. How right you are. This is dragging me into the part that I — GR: Seventy five years of, yeah, remembering. GM: Yeah. Yes. GR: LAC2. LAC1 and then you probably went to sergeant. GM: I did. Yeah. GR: And then flight sergeant. GM: Then flight sergeant. GR: Yeah. GM: And then yes. Warrant officer. GR: Yeah. GM: By that time, it was a couple of years. Three years on. GR: Yeah. GM: And from warrant officer I was commissioned. GR: Yeah. So, before you got to the rank of warrant officer you were back in the UK. GM: Oh yeah. GR: Did you get posted direct to a squadron or was it a Heavy Conversion Unit? GM: No. It was an extension of our flying experience. Mainly to get experience in flying in blackout conditions. GR: Oh yeah. GM: Because in Canada all the lights were on. GR: Yes. GM: So, as you soon as you got into the UK air then it was black. GR: And of course navigation would be quite reasonable with all the lights on and if you knew where cities and towns were. GM: Well yes. Indeed. There was no problem at all. GR: Yeah. So, pitch black England. GM: It was. Yeah. Well, of course you were young and adventurous so you attacked the problem with vigour and got used to it. GR: Yeah. GM: Which is what one had to. So, Lichfield was the place that I went to to get the flying experience in the dark. GR: And was you with a crew then? Did you have your own pilot or —? Was it —? GM: Shortly after that then we did crew up. GR: Yeah. GM: And there seemed to be quite a number of Australian pilots running parallel with us. Most of the navigators, I think, were British. May have been one —oh yes there was an odd one or two Australians as well I think. And just a way of processing us for making up the numbers from other groups of navigators at the same stage as we were. And so, we went to Lichfield and whilst we were climatizing ourselves to blackouts in general then of course we were gaining experience as a crew because we were given the opportunity to arrange, sort of, the membership of the crew during social hours. GR: So, this was on Wellingtons. So — GM: It was on Wellingtons. GR: Was there about —was there five of you? I think it is on a Wellington. Yeah. GM: Yes. I think it was five at that time. GR: Yeah. Yeah. Because you would have had your air gunners with you as well. With you at that time. GM: Oh yes. Indeed. GR: Yeah. GM: Yeah. It was largely done by meeting each other in the mess or during working hours. They had a flight headquarters and also during flying. You got to know who the people you got on well with and it didn’t take very long to get a crew together. GR: To get together. Yeah. So where did things move on from training? I believe you were —I wouldn’t say rushed but you — GM: No. We weren’t rushed. We did well. GR: Yeah. GM: In actual fact that post-training period abroad, we did broaden our skills quite considerably with the experience we were getting flying around. And we did eventually do a first raid on enemy territory. It was sort of a single effort in which we flew as a crew on our first operation. GR: Yeah. GM: And it was a comparatively easy operation. GR: Yeah. Did they give you something like leaflet dropping or mine laying? Or something like that as a —? GM: Oh yes. We dropped leaflets on this particular occasion. GR: Yeah. Yeah. GM: It wasn’t — they weren’t a great deal on this occasion but at least we felt we were doing something towards the war effort. GR: Yeah. Yeah. GM: Yes. GR: And that’s while you was at the Operational Training Unit. GM: That’s right. Yes. Having done that single initial trip. GR: Yeah. GM: Within days it was postings were announced. And I think we all were all sent home on leave for a week or something like that. When we came back then the postings took effect. We went to the squadron. GR: Yeah. And that was 103. Yeah. 103 at Elsham Wolds. GM: Yes. GR: Yeah. GM: Yes. GR: And I believe, was your first operation then the thousand bomber raid? GM: Oh yes. The first thousand bomber raid. As far as I can recall. GR: Yeah. GM: I think it was the very first one. GR: Yeah. GM: Where did we go to? GR: I’m trying to remember. Would that be Cologne? GM: Yes. It would be. GR: Essen. GM: It would have been. GR: Cologne or Essen. GM: I think it was Cologne. GR: Cologne. GM: Yes. Yes. GR: And I think that was in a Wellington wasn’t it so —? GM: Yes. That was in a Wellington. GR: Yeah. GM: We had converted from flying Ansons in the early days at IT. ITW. Yes. GR: Yeah. Initial training. Yeah. GM: Whatever it was. GR: Yeah. GM: When we got back from Canada that we then converted on to. GR: Yeah. And obviously, I mean, I know you then converted from the Wellington on to the Halifax. GM: Yes. Indeed. GR: Heavy bomber. GM: That was in the summer of 1942. GR: Yeah. So, and then leading on to what obviously was an eventful night. How many operations did you actually fly Gordon? Can you remember? Roughly. GM: I think I was on my eighteenth. GR: Eighteenth. GM: Yes GR: Yeah. GM: I was looking forward to getting, going towards the end. We had thirty to do. GR: Thirty. Yes. Yeah. GM: And it wasn’t to be. GR: Yeah. GM: Which was a great pity. GR: And those eighteen were with the same crew? Were you — GM: Oh yes. GR: Yeah. GM: Yes. Yes. GR: So, I don’t know whether you can tell us a little about yeah, obviously I know you were attacked by a German night fighter. GM: Well what it really boils down to — the raid followed the usual pattern and except that when we came out of the target run and dropped the bombs and we were turned away for the return trip back home and we were jumped by this German fighter. GR: Yeah. GM: And he just hung around in the background so — I didn’t see him. I was in the front of the aircraft so, but from the rear gunner and the other people who could look backwards he stayed probably something like five hundred yards behind us. He didn’t do anything that was aggressive or anything like. He just sort of sat there. And we did, with the captain making up his mind then, we did talk about what we should do and eventually we said, ‘Well let’s try and scare him off.’ Bad decision. Because we opened up on him from the four gun turret in the, at the rear and also there was a turret — GR: Mid-upper. GM: Mid-upper turret. Yes. And that amounted to six machine guns in all. Four with the rear gunner and two mid-upper. And that annoyed the [laughs] chap who was following us I’ve no doubt because having received a blast from our gunners he then opened up and he must have been very good because he really gave us, I think it was —I think four bursts I think we experienced and in that time he set the two inboard engines on fire. He also hit the rear gunner and he missed the rest of us by very small margins because you could see the tracers going past. GR: And through — GM: And through. GR: The machine. Yeah. GM: Yeah. Yeah. And it set the two engines so named so, we were burned and the pilot put us into a dive to get to a lower level and we were flying at about twelve thousand feet I suppose. Certainly, no more. We found that to be a relatively good level to make an attack and, on this occasion, it didn’t pay off out, pay off in our favour as it had done in the past. So, we were shot down, in plain English. And got down to quite low levels before the order was given to abandon aircraft. And I, in the front of the aircraft was standing on the escape hatch. So all we had to do really was to move ourselves. That’s the radio operator, the front gunner and myself. And just behind and above us was the pilot and his — GR: Flight engineer. GM: Flight engineer. GR: Yeah. GM: Yeah GR: Was you the first out? GM: Yes. I was standing on the escape hatch. And they were, having made the decision, the general impression was get out. Don’t hold anybody up. GR: Yeah. GM: So, I got the trap door up and I dropped to sitting on the side of the aperture with my legs dangling and I knew the others were anxious to get into that position so I slid my rear end off the edge of the opening and I was sucked out by the slipstream. And I didn’t pull my cord of the parachute until I was well away from the aircraft. And probably somebody else would have got out in the same time. And I eventually did do so but I wasn’t in the air very long. Just time to look around and there was the light and somehow or other it seemed to be yellowy to me. I don’t know what colour the night was there but I’ve got this yellow feeling in my memory so perhaps it was from the flares or something like that burning as the aircraft got closer to the ground and the fire took greater hold. Anyhow, I pulled the rip cord and came to a jarring stop almost, I suppose. And within a very short period — seconds it seemed, so it probably was that I found myself crashing through the branches of a tree. And I was left swinging with the parachute and the harness stretched out above me spread over the foliage of the branches of the tree. GR: Yeah. GM: So, I couldn’t touch the ground so I thought well I’ve got to do something. So I twisted the knob on the release on the parachute harness and the straps sort of sprang apart and I was free to drop — which I did. To my surprise I fell about a foot. No more. I mean, if you can imagine. GR: Yeah. GM: You pulled the cord and as soon as you were in motion then you stopped. GR: You were bracing yourself for a bad fall. GM: Indeed. GR: And you dropped twelve inches. GM: Yeah. GR: Good. GM: It couldn’t have been more. It was so quick. And so, I got myself out of the tree and dogs were barking around and I could see there was a building close by which I thought, well, sounds like this might be bit of a farm. In that style. I dumped my harness and what have you there. It was largely still attached to the silk of the parachute which was stuck up in the tree and I left it there. It was no good. I wasn’t going to be able to pull it down. It would make too much row in any case. I did try but I gave up when I heard the creaking and the crashing and the scratching on the branches. So, I walked my way down to the, what I thought might be a road and having got through the hedge it proved to be a road going, yes, downhill. Not very steep. So, naturally, I took the road down. I didn’t go up and I found that I was walking, from the observation of the North Star, I found that I was walking more or less in a northerly direction and as I felt then at the moment then that was the wrong way to go ‘cause I would only be walking to a coast. GR: Was you in France Gordon? Or in Belgium? You know, when you landed. GM: When I landed. GR: Yeah. GM: I was in, on the border of Belgium and Holland. GR: Belgium and Holland. Right. Yeah. GM: So, it was about as far as where you could get without being in Germany I suppose. GR: Yeah. GM: So, anyhow, I thought well it’s no good staying here. You’ve got to find somewhere to hide for daylight and it was still before midnight. So, I walked off and having made the discovery that I was heading to the north I turned on the first immediate turning and went up a road to the west and I did see where the aircraft had crashed. Having been left. So, I thought —right, well south is going to be over that way so I went that way and continued to do so for the rest of the night. GR: So, you walked through the night. GM: Yeah. I don’t know how many miles I travelled. GR: Yeah. GM: But I walked through the odd village certainly. GR: Yeah. GM: And the odd dog did bark. GR: So, in the morning as the light’s coming up did you meet anybody or decide you had to get some sleep? GM: Yeah, well I was still on the road. I was going, from my observations, then I realised I was no longer travelling to the south. I was travelling to the, what’s, south, east, west — GR: West. GM: I was travelling to the west along the road and I thought well there’s houses there. I wonder what is around the back somewhere. It was beginning to get light so, I turned off the road into a field path. And eventually I found a copse on the farm and I got myself in and got in to the undergrowth so that I was hidden although there was a road close by. Or a path of some sort close by. And went to sleep. I woke up mid-morning or thereabouts and I could hear people moving about in the field and I found I was in this copse on the side of a rise and there was men working above me in the field there and there was people passing along the road which was in front of this copse in which I was hiding. So, I just kept out of sight as best I could for the morning. The same in the afternoon. I examined what I’d got in my pockets which was edible. There wasn’t much. A few little bits of chocolate and what have you and I stayed there until the farm began to close down for the night and the light was well on its way to disappearing. Leaving it dark. So I just got up and I’d seen the traffic in the roads close by so I went, turned around, turned across the grass that wasn’t very long. Yes, it was grass of the field. Went through the hedge and down the road. Heading more or less in a southerly direction. And I proceeded where the road was going west and south and I took a variety of roads passing through whatever built up areas there were. And there were a few villages. Not big. That one could walk through. GR: So, did you walk through the night again? GM: Oh yeah. GR: Yeah. GM: Yes. I walked through the night. In the early part of the night when I went past a group of houses very often there was a coffee shop or a beer place or whatever it was where people had gathered for their evening’s entertainment. I was being tempted to go and find out whether there was any help there but I resisted that and carried on until I had to find another hiding place on the following morning. And this was repeated. Staying hidden as best as possible in the hiding place which I’d chosen in the dark actually. And as soon as it got anywhere near dark I was on my way. GR: How long did you do this for before you came into contact with anybody? GM: Well I saw people. People came. GR: Yeah. GM: Did come fairly close to me without seeing me. GR: Yeah. GM: When I was hidden in the bushes and things like that. I think it was about the fifth day. GR: Fifth day. GM: Fourth or fifth day and I — GR: And did somebody approach you or did you approach them? GM: No. No. What happened was I’d been staying in the middle of a village. In the bombed house. Or an empty house anyhow. It wasn’t in very good nick. I imagined from what I could see that it was a bombed-like. During the daytime there in this particular place the shops across the road and on either side and what have you was, were mixed. In some cases, there were shops and there was living quarters there as well. Houses and flats. And people were going about their normal daily business. GR: Yeah. GM: And I, up on the first floor occasionally poked my head up and looked out of the windows and I could see these people dressed normally and carrying shopping bags and things like that and they went. They went. The scariest part of it was at lunchtime the kids were out of school and I don’t know whether they had their lunches at school or whether they had them at home but there was a number of them about and two or three of them came into the house in which I was on the first floor. And they messed around a bit as kids do in an empty place and they started coming up the stairs and then something happened. I don’t know what happened but it took their attention. Perhaps their playtime had gone and they didn’t get right up to the top of the stairs so, I was left on the first floor there unmolested. And I just stayed on there until it started to get dark. I can’t tell you what time it was that it got dark but this was October. GR: Yeah. GM: So, evenings were getting dark fairly early and the number of people out on the street of course diminished as soon as it came what would have been, in the old days, lighting up time. GR: Yeah. GM: And the streets became largely vacant so I took a chance. Went downstairs and got the general direction in my own mind to go south and west and I got out of the old bombed house on to the main road. I just walked through. Eventually I got out of the town and I took where my fancy took me. In actual fact, I was aware of what the countryside was like and whether I was on open ground or whether I was passing through places where there was copses of trees and what have you but I stayed on the road as much as possible. It was easy walking. GR: Yeah. GM: That’s what I did. And I had to find, at the beginning of the next day before it got light I had to find a hiding place each time. And the countryside was quite interesting. It was quite hilly and I did come to a river. Wait a minute. No [pause] I’m not too sure where that was. I certainly came to the odd railway so I had to walk along the ordinary road and went across the railway bridge to get to the other side. There were people about. A bit. But it was as good as being, walking on your own. GR: Yeah. GM: Yeah. It was, it was quite good. So, I walked overnight for the first four or five nights and got away with it. GR: Got away with it. So again, when did you meet somebody or how did you meet somebody — GM: Yeah. GR: Who was involved with either the resistance or helpers? GM: Well, I stayed in one town as I say. GR: Yeah. GM: I think that was probably the last one. Anyhow, I walked from that last town and eventually having sort of just taken the general south-westerly direction I found myself in fairly open country and of course it had started to rain. It had been dry all the time previously. And I got pretty wet. Ok. What do I do now? And it was no good sort of getting under a tree or anything like that. GR: No. GM: ‘Cause the summer foliage was disappearing fast and the branches were fairly clear of leaves. So, I thought well I’ll have to go back to the old place where I’d stayed the previous night which was a bit of a problem because it was some miles. Anyhow, I did go back and I came into a village and you needed a map because it affects the story to a certain extent. Anyhow, I got, I passed one of the villages which I’d come through and I saw a house on the other side of the road. There were houses around. GR: Yeah. Yeah. GM: And I was walking down the main street. There was nobody about and looking across the road I could see there was a light in this house. It was surprising because most of the lighting was so subdued that you really couldn’t make any use of it. In any case it would have given one’s position away quite easily. Anyhow, I was in the middle of this village and I was quite amazed to see so much light from it. Anyhow, that was only for a short while but the house was still there and I thought there’s somebody obviously living there. And it took me some time to make up my mind but I thought I’m soaking wet. GR: Wet, tired and hungry. GM: Indeed. Indeed. Greater pusher to making up your mind. GR: Yeah. GM: And so, I went and knocked on the front door and there was no response from the door but the window flung out from the first floor. And just one question, ‘qui est la?’ Who is there? So, I tried to explain my position to this face up at the window. And I don’t know what he said but obviously sort of —wait. So, I just stood there and I heard him thundering downstairs so he’d still got his shoes on and this was about 8 o’clock in the evening I suppose. From my general recollection. And the door was flung open. And I think I said something rather crass like, ‘Je suis Anglais,’ or something like that. And he looked me up and down. Didn’t say anything. Just beckoned me in. GR: Just beckoned you in. GM: And I then followed him into a back room and he put the lights on. He gave me a good looking over and his wife then came downstairs. Whether they’d been going to bed or whether they’d got an upstairs room I don’t know. And so there we were. They sort of, I think they started to dry me off to a certain extent and they also had a, what we call a boiler, a solid fuel fire of sorts. GR: Yeah. Fire. GM: And so I’m sort of sat close by to that and his wife, as I say, came down and I tried to explain who I was. I showed them my uniform and the flying and the badge and they were very friendly. Anyhow, it wasn’t long before there was a knock on the door and in came a local priest. So, they’d got a message through to him pretty smartish. Mind you it was — the timing was such that it was now in time which nobody should be about except those who were in authority. GR: Yeah. Curfew. GM: There was a curfew. GR: Yeah. GM: And this man was the local priest. He’d got some English. He’d got a good lot of English. Anyhow, he understood what was what and his main words that he said was, ‘You come with me.’ So, I thought, well, ‘Great. And by that time the rain had finished and it was dry outside. Well I say dry. It wasn’t raining. GR: Yeah. GM: And having thanked the man and his wife for the help I came away with the priest and went and stayed at his establishment which was some walk away. And he was living there with his housekeeper and she was still up so it couldn’t have been so very late. So, she just sort of said hello, so to speak, and accepted that I was one of the opposition to the Germans. They had me in there and I don’t know — they gave me a drink I think. I don’t know whether it was hot or cold now. And a bed. That was the first bed I’d been in for some time. it was typical continental. GR: Yeah. GM: One of these great puffed up ones. GR: It was a bed. GM: It was a bed. GR: Yeah. GM: And it was in the warm. In the dry. And they were friends. GR: And did you find out later were they part of the resistance or were they just somebody — did they put you in —? GM: Oh, they were in the know. GR: They were in the know. GM: They were in the know. How active they were I don’t know but they certainly — GR: You wouldn’t have known at the time but obviously you were at the beginning of the Comete line. GM: Yes. GR: To be passed all the way down. GM: It may not have been actual Comete people but people who were associated with them. GR: Yeah. GM: And yes, I was then [pause] I made the contacts and went on and eventually with the result that I got in with Comete but it was no joyride having found them. GR: No. No. GM: As a matter of fact it was downright dangerous in places. GR: Yeah. Because at the time I presume the Germans knew that something was, they knew airmen were getting down. GM: Oh yes. GR: They would have known of an existence of some sort of resistance movement moving them. How, can you remember how long you were actually from being shot down to getting through the Pyrenees how long were you —? GM: Oh, three weeks or thereabouts. GR: Three weeks. GM: Yeah. Yes. GR: And obviously you and your helpers would have been living on your wits all the time. Like you said it was dangerous. GM: Yes, well I eventually — GR: Probably more dangerous for the helpers. GM: Oh certainly. GR: Yeah. GM: Certainly. Yes. GR: As long as you still had your RAF dog tags you had some sort of security. GM: Yes. Yes indeed. GR: Yeah. GM: But I did take other badges and things off so there was nothing to show for it. And then of course, the priest lent me one of his overall coats. I don’t know whether — he wasn’t as big as me but, so where he got the coat I don’t know but it certainly fitted really well. And I eventually got through to Brussels. From Brussels I got through to Paris. I got from Paris down to St Jean de Luz and from there through the Pyrenees. That was a long run. I don’t know how many miles. Thirty odd. And the — GR: And this would have been the end of October. Probably the beginning of November. GM: Yes. GR: So winter was on its way. GM: It was the end of October. GR: Yeah. GM: It was —I got down to the Pyrenees. I think it was the 19th of October. And got across and I then went down. Yes. Yes I eventually got down to — what’s the capital of Spain? GR: Madrid. GM: Madrid. GR: Madrid. GM: Yes. Eventually they, on the grapevine, they were told in Madrid that I was up there on their side of the border and so they sent a car up to take me down to the British embassy. GR: Yeah. GM: And arrangements were then made and we went from the embassy two or three days later and we then finished up in Gibraltar and they sort of were pretty careful about finding out you were on the level. GR: Yes. GM: And so, I then went down to the Rock of Gibraltar and eventually, a couple of days later I flew to the UK. GR: So, you flew back. You didn’t — yeah. GM: Yes. GR: Yeah. GM: And that was [pause] how many days are there in October? Thirty one. GR: Thirty one. GM: Well that was the night of the 31st of October and we landed down in Cornwall to book in and do whatever official things had to be done and then we were flown up to, now, an aerodrome near London. GR: Croydon. GM: No. GR: Not Hendon. GM: No. No. GR: Uxbridge. GM: No. Further out. GR: Northolt. GM: Further out. Anyhow — GR: Yeah. GM: We got a train in. GR: Yeah. GM: And reported in to whatever place it was. Up in town. Yes. GR: And then I presume — GM: I’m sorry. This is getting a bit — GR: No. Gordon it isn’t and your memory’s very very good. And I presume you were then debriefed. GM: We came up. We landed in the UK and then we, then came in to, towards central London. GR: Yeah. GM: We then, I was with other people. Then there was three, I think, of us. We hadn’t been in our escapes with each other at all. It was just whoever was [pause] happened to be, due to come, return back to the UK. GR: Yes. GM: On that particular day. Anyhow, as I say we landed on the first of November and we got, we then, with several hiccups we got up to London and Baker Street. It was a hotel which is still there. GR: Yeah. GM: And went in. And it had been taken over by the air force, and booked in and in the next couple of minutes we were asked a question. The question is, ‘Where do you live?’ And I said, ‘Well, my family live in Wembley’. He said, ‘That’s just down the road by train.’ So he said, ‘Right. You can go home tonight.’ So, I don’t know what — oh they gave me a pass, I think. Travel. Yeah. Anyhow, I got on the train in Baker Street along through to Wembley Central and I walked down the old road. The estate. Sort of. Which had been there for quite some time and I turned down the road, our road —Douglas Avenue after travelling down the Ealing Road which does lead one to Ealing still and I banged on the front door. Gave my mother nearly a heart attack I think. She already knew I was ok. GR: Yeah. GM: And so, I went in and I was home. And the 1st of November is my birthday. GR: So, you was home for your birthday. GM: Indeed. Well, the last couple of hours of it. GR: So from taking off you spent what, four weeks. Got back four weeks later. GM: Yeah. GR: Yeah. GM: Yes. About the 4th or the 5th of October. GR: Yeah. GM: And I walked into home. Thousands of miles away I suppose you could say. GR: Round trip. GM: Round trip. GR: A wonderful birthday present. GM: Indeed. GR: Going back to the crew, Gordon. GM: Yes. GR: If you don’t mind. I know your rear gunner didn’t make it. GM: No. He didn’t. GR: The other five members. Did they evade or were they taken prisoner of war? GM: No. They were — those that were injured — GR: Yeah. GM: Were taken to hospital and they then became POWs. GR: Yeah. GM: And the others who were just banged about a bit the same as myself — GR: Yeah. GM: They were taken prisoner. GR: They were taken prisoner as well. Yeah. So out of the crew you were the only one who managed to get back. GM: Indeed. Indeed. GR: Yeah. GM: It was a great pity but — GR: And the rest of them had to wait until 1945. GM: I’m afraid so. GR: Yeah. So what happened to you Gordon? After you were back and you’d had your leave and obviously the end of the war would have been still two years away. GM: Oh yes this was, what, ‘42 . GR: ’42. Yeah. So — GM: Running into ‘43. Yeah. I had Christmas at home. GR: Yeah. GM: Yeah. GR: ‘Cause I know they had a rule about not letting you fly again or fly over. GM: It depended on your experience I think. GR: Yeah. GM: But I had, in actual fact, in that four weeks and I’d got to know the identity of a lot of people. GR: Yeah. Which was good. GM: So, there was no question of going back on ops again. GR: No. So did you, what did you actually do for those two years. Did you — GM: Oh. Well, yes, after the interrogation, the next day. GR: Yeah. GM: After I’d been home I had to go back to this old hotel at Baker Street and went through the debriefing and they said, ‘What do you want to do?’ So, I said, ‘Well I would like to do SN course in navigation.’ Staff navigator. And so they said, ‘Well, that’s alright. We can fix that.’ And sure enough they did. I was posted away from London to Cheltenham. The aerodrome at Cheltenham. Or nearby. And I was on the staff there as an instructor until July ‘43. That’s right. July ‘43 and in that time, I was an instructor in — GR: Navigation. GM: Yeah. GR: Yeah. GM: And I then took the advanced course which was very interesting. GR: Yeah. GM: It was a good course. And I then was posted, after that, to [pause] now where did I go to? GR: Again, as an instructor or — GM: Oh yes. GR: Yeah. GM: Yes. Yes. I was posted up to Scotland. That’s right. And strangely the place where I got posted to was Wigtown. GR: Wigtown. Yeah. I know Wigtown. GM: And the chap I was working, that I was sent up to work with was Len [unclear] he was a flight [unclear] officer. Flight lieutenant. GR: Yeah. GM: Was he? Yeah. He was flight lieutenant. He was, certainly he was a regular officer and navigation specialist so I worked with him to start with and, well it all turned out very well. GR: Yeah. GM: Finishing up, as you say, as a flight lieutenant. GR: Yeah. And so, I’ll pull to a close. Where was you on VE day? So 8th of May 1945. Was you still up in Scotland instructing? Where was you when you were told the war had finished? GM: 8th of May. GR: 1945. GM: ‘45. I was at Wigtown. GR: You were still up in Wigtown in Scotland. Yeah. GM: Yes. I stayed on with the flying training. Still continued. GR: Yeah. GM: The air force didn’t suddenly sort of pack it all in and go home. It carried on very much as it had before. And eventually they were closing down the advanced, was it the Advanced Navigation School? GR: Yeah. GM: Something. Anyhow, the camp was going to be decommissioned by the sounds of things until something else was found for it to be used for and we came down south and I [pause] There was somebody who was the nav senior instructor who I’d known and met and he put a request in, I think. For me to go to where he was. GR: Yeah. And obviously by the time you finished your service in the Royal Air Force. GM: Yeah. GR: You came back to Wembley. GM: Yes. Indeed. GR: And this house we’re sat in. How long have you lived here now Gordon? GM: Oh, about forty five, forty six years. GR: Forty five. Yeah. Yeah. GM: And we had another house before this for twelve years. GR: Yeah. GM: The other side of Wembley. GR: Yeah. GM: And on the same road as where my parents lived and where I grew up. GR: So apart from a six year sojourn in the Royal Air Force. GM: I’ve lived in Wembley. GR: You’re here in Wembley and we’re still in Wembley. GM: Yeah. GR: And I have to say, Gordon. I really appreciate what you’ve just talked about. It was absolutely wonderful. Thank you. GM: I’m sorry to not be — GR: Do not say sorry. GM: More. GR: No. I mean I — GM: I haven’t thought about some parts of this at all. GR: Yeah. I mean I knew your story obviously from past experiences and some of the books you’ve appeared in. And I know you’ve got your book coming out in September which is going to be eagerly awaited. But no —that was wonderful. Thank you. GM: Oh well, you’re very kind. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gordon Mellor. Two Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gary Rushbrooke Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-27 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMellorG160627 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Description An account of the resource Gordon Mellor grew up in London and, being interested in aviation, he volunteered for the Air Force and trained as a navigator in Canada. On his return to the UK he and his crew were posted to 103 Squadron at RAF Elsham Wolds and his first operation was the thousand bomber operation against Cologne. On his 18th operation they were attacked by a night fighter. Gordon baled out and landed in a tree. When he had freed himself and landed on the ground, he set off to walk, by tracking the North Star, in the general direction of Spain. He hid in various places during the daylight until after a few days he was inspired to knock on a door, when he discovered he was in Belgium. The locals started the process that led to him being escorted through an escape line from Belgium to Paris and then through the Pyrenees to Spain. He was taken to Gibraltar and flown home. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Belgium Canada Gibraltar Great Britain Spain England--Lincolnshire France--Paris France Germany Germany--Ruhr (Region) Germany--Cologne Pyrenees Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940 1942-10-04 1942-11-01 1945 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:09:16 audio recording 103 Squadron aircrew bale out bombing bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942) briefing de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007) debriefing evading Halifax navigator RAF Elsham Wolds RAF Wigtown Resistance shot down training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/553/8819/PMellorG1501.1.jpg ec53d3c84b8db787d307d49e498fe698 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/553/8819/AMellorGH160817.2.mp3 35ebeb2be6c6e7e0510e47aa5e5abf1d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mellor, Gordon Gordon Herbert Mellor G H Mellor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mellor, G Description An account of the resource Four oral history interviews with Gordon Mellor (1919 -2018, 929433, 172802 Royal Air Force). He trained in Canada as an observer and served as a navigator with 103 Squadron. He was shot down over Holland in 1942 but evaded capture. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-06 2016-06-07 2016-08-17 2016-08-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document CB: Let me just start off with the introduction. GM: Sort of introduce the - CB: I’ll start you off. GM: Order. CB: Yeah. I’ll start you off. GM: Yeah. Yes. CB: Ok. My name is Chris Brock bank and today is the 17th of August 2016. I’m with Gordon Mellor in Wembley and we’re going to talk about his life and times in the RAF and afterwards. So, Gordon, in practical terms, what do you remember about your earliest days? GM: My earliest days were, shall we say, from birth to five years old and I do still have a firm memory at the, at the age of two, two years of falling down in some land behind our house and breaking a leg so I was sort of done up with plaster and what have you for some little time at that early age. The rest of the youth was, I should say, ordinary. I went to a local council school and stayed there for quite some years. This was a convenient house, convenient to our house of about seven or eight minutes’ walk so that I have in actual fact spent most of my lifetime in this area which is known worldwide as Wembley. Following the days at the council school that I first mentioned I was not a success on what was commonly known as the eleven plus but I seemed to pick up speed and I successfully entered the excellent technical college where the main subject matter was related to engineering and I must have stayed there nearly three years at that particular place. Then I made great friends with a man, well he wasn’t a man he was a boy like myself but his name was Kenneth Clarke. I mention him because he was, has always been until recent years quite a prominent member of my friends. When I was close to seventeen then I got itchy feet I suppose and I wanted to get out to work rather than spend the last three or four months in school so I looked around and obviously I needed to have some strong ideas about employment and also on subject matter. I decided that I didn’t want to just be a clerk in an office or an engineer of the varying quality so I decided that I would take a job to start with and for the first couple of years of being at work then I was connected with the estate agents and property subject matter and after that I then became a little more concentrated on surveying and I changed direction away from property valuation and the like and became the chartered quantity surveyor. The charter didn’t come until after the national service which will come to light in due course. For this purpose I scouted around and took one or two approaches to surveyors and eventually I picked up what I thought was a suitable proposition and by that time I suppose I was getting near to eighteen, nineteen and I found this particular work to be of interest so I then took classes in, at evening time and I was in this situation taking the class at London Polytechnic. Oh goodness me I’ve forgotten the name of the place. It’s top of Regent Street, near Charing Cross, not Charing Cross. CB: New Oxford Street. GM: Oxford Street. Yes. Just north of Oxford Street. So and I I found it interesting and there was a wide range of matter to become familiar with so this then certainly brought me to the period I would say was 1937/38 and the international situation indicated that there was going to be quite a conflict. The only question to my mind and a lot of other people was when? How soon would it be? Well we did find out. 1939, and the entry in to the armed forces as a, shall we say, can’t call it a pastime but it became of interest and we tried to get into the volunteer reserve. Well as I was looking for quite a high qualification in, I was doing anything from four to five evening classes a week at Regent Street Polytechnic. Anyhow, time passed and we found in September 1939 that war was forced upon us and I hadn’t been successful in getting into the volunteer reserve. I’d been doing a day’s job and most of my spare time was in study and the like. So it wasn’t until calling up papers came in the beginning of 1940 that I was brought into the services. The air force had a strong representation in aerodromes around North London. Northwest London. Hendon obviously was one of them and I had tried to extend my knowledge of the air force as, just as a matter of relaxation so when the calling up papers came and I had volunteered for the RAF and in view of my familiar approach to maps and charts and things like that I applied for service in the RAF. Much to my delight we were going to have to do something we might as well l do something that was a principal interest so I joined the RAF as an AC2 as I think most people did unless you were a university graduate or the like and this was in the early days of 1940. Well, I, how far do you want me to go on? CB: Keep going. That’s fine. GM: We’re alright are we? CB: Yeah. Very good. GM: Ok. I was, oh my goodness me, where were we going, oh yes I was called up to Uxbridge depot and I spent the first week there, joined with about forty, I would say, about forty other youngsters. I wouldn’t say that everyone was a youngster. There was quite some mature men who were also being called up and having gone through the initiation and the approaches to a service life we were then posted up to a discipline, sorry - CB: Initial Training Wing. GM: Indeed. Initial Training Wing. That is the correct name of course and we found that it all, it went well on the whole and we came through the first three months and there was still no sign of being posted elsewhere so we had the traditional seven days leave until we came back and all in all we saved an extra few weeks before there was a vacancy for another training course and we were posted. This was an initial training wing and we survived the entrance and the doings and also we were useful in doing odd jobs when we were given the opportunity to train for a post as navigators in Canada. So having had an introduction to navigation in this way we were posted up north to a depot on the coast and from there in Scotland we got onto a boat which was not much more than a cross channel ferry and we went up to Iceland, stayed on the boat and then transferred immediately to a much larger vessel. I used to be able to quote the name of the boat, maybe it will come to mind in a minute but we put, went from Reykjavik in Iceland across to Canada and on the way there we were accompanied by a number of other boats and although we were going quite fast then certainly it wasn’t for the slower vessel at all. It was quite a quick trip. We landed on the east coast of Canada and in no time we were being marshalled off of the ferry boat and I used to be able to - [Machine stopped] CB: No. No. That’s fine. It’s my way of just covering it then. So we’re restarting now and we’re in Canada. GM: Yes. CB: Just going back a step. GM: Yes. CB: So the intriguing thing is the number of places that were training and some were slightly different but you went to Port Albert. GM: That’s right. CB: Which is on the Lakes. GM: Yes. Yes. CB: So what did you actually do when you were there? How did the course go? GM: Well it was a mixture of navigation instruction and as that progressed so we did flying exercises which followed the increased knowledge that you gained in the classroom. CB: Right. GM: So we were still having lectures on navigation problems and requirements at the end of the first three months much in the same method of training as we were at the beginning of that period. It was the subject matter that improved. CB: Right. GM: Then we had the period after that of several weeks and then we were posted to the bombing and gunnery school. CB: So when you were doing the navigation training, you’re at Port Albert. GM: Yes. CB: What’s, what’s the geography like there? Are we in the prairies or are we in a built up sort of area. GM: We were in Ontario. CB: Yes. GM: Which is a major farming area I would have said. It was, we were about twelve miles out of the town of, I think it was Goderich. CB: Yeah. GM: And there we learned the techniques and what have you and flying from the, that aerodrome we put what we had learned in the classroom, so to speak, into practice. CB: Yeah. GM: In the Ansons which were - CB: You were in Ansons. Ok GM: Available. The class was split into groups of twos and I think there was somewhere around about twenty four of us in groups of two all flying in the, at the same time so it looks, rather looks as though we had something like twelve aircraft allocated to half days so to speak. There was a course flew in the mornings and one in the afternoons. And later on of course then we had night time flying as well. CB: Ok. And when you went to gunnery what were you flying there? How did they run that? GM: Yes. We had Fairey Battles and still two people in the gunnery position. One chap at the back with the, sort of, fire power and the back towards the back of the plane towards the tail and the second pupil, if I can call us that, the second pupil was stuck on the seat in the fuselage so he didn’t get much to see during that exercise except down below and it was mainly map reading and exercises such as that. CB: Because this is a three crew aeroplane. GM: Yes. CB: And you could change over could you? The roles in the air. GM: Oh the navigator and, the two navigator’s, yes they could swap over. There wasn’t a lot of room in the plane but certainly the gunnery position as you remember it was the back of the compartment which the navigators occupied was sealed, it wasn’t exactly sealed but it was shut off from the pilot’s position. You couldn’t pass from one, from the front to the back of the aircraft. The pilot had sole use of the front half of the aircraft and the two trainees were in the back half and I thought there was a radio operator on there as part of the permanent crew. Same as the pilot was. CB: Ok. And what did the gunnery training comprise? GM: Oh mostly machine gun fire on a target being towed by another aircraft and there was, yes, there was that and this is so long ago and I haven’t really talked about it for a long time. Yes. Certainly the two trainees they each got a spell on each flight so that the time wasn’t wasted at all. You were either doing the exercises which were laid out to be done from the rear gunner’s position or you were map reading or other sort of interesting exercises looking down through the bomb, sort of window, I don’t know, hatch I suppose you would call it which was patent glazed, not patent glazing it was a glazed opening and I think in normal times it was, you could lift it and get into the aircraft in that position. CB: Ok. So you’ve got two people who are learning gunnery in the plane. GM: Yes. CB: They hit the target. How do you know who has shot what? GM: That’s a good question. They, they must have had a means of telling either the first or the second amount of gunnery which was being tested so - CB: Was it coloured ammunition? GM: Well that was hovering in the back of my mind but I’m not oversure. CB: Ok. GM: I thought, I seem to remember on occasions we did have coloured ammunition but I can’t be sure that it was at the early part of your gunnery training at all. CB: Because the plane was only towing one target. GM: Exactly, no the plane, the other plane was - CB: Yes. GM: Tow, perhaps there was a non-identifiable and perhaps there was also another half which was indicated in some way. I should imagine it was sort of a paint arrangement that – CB: So the course you were on is the observer course in those days. GM: Yes, yes. CB: The third aspect of what you were doing was bomb aiming so how was that done and in what aircraft? GM: To my mind it was a bombing and gunnery course so that one was sort of mentally passed over to the people who specialised in bomb aiming and there was a certain amount of exercising and also [jockeying?] the targets. How they separated it out is a good question because I can’t, I haven’t got the, I shall have to look it up. CB: Well we can come back to that. GM: Yes. CB: So – GM: I’m sorry but there are now a number of details which have now - CB: Yeah. GM: Slipped my memory. CB: That’s ok. So we’re in 1941. GM: Yeah. CB: You went out there in April. GM: Thereabouts. CB: You were there during the summer. How many months were you doing that training? GM: April. So including the toing and froing? CB: Yeah. GM: So April. April, May, June, July, August, September, October. That’s about it yeah. Seven months. CB: Ok. And at the end of - GM: We had a visit by the New Zealand premier. Not that that’s of any particular significance other than the fact that we did get a visit. CB: Because they were training New Zealanders as well. GM: Well he was on a diplomatic tour of something and it was just one day that he came to Port Albert and for whatever it was and he, yes he chatted with us and what have you, it was quite interesting. CB: At what stage were you presented with your observer’s brevvy? Flying badge. GM: Oh what a good question. I can remember that. Now the question is what stage? [pause] I should have done some homework on this. CB: This was before you returned to Britain was it? GM: Oh yes. Oh yes. Yes. That was immediately before we left. We had the parade and we all got our wings. Most of us had the second uniform suitably fitted out with the, with the badges and we left the same afternoon so it was right at the end of the visit. Of course we left that evening, went to, started on our way back and as long, they didn’t want to know where we were going or anything like that except that they gave us a date to be at the port on the Atlantic coast so that we were travelling at any old time that suited us and we - CB: Right. GM: We were given, let’s see yes I think we were probably given five days or something like that. CB: Yeah. GM: To get ourselves from the station where we were got our wings and overnight I think we got ourselves to Toronto. It was a hundred and forty miles. It didn’t take long on the, on the train and of course we were all packed up and ready to go and probably another two or three days calling in at Montreal and returning to the Canadian port. CB: Halifax, Nova Scotia. GM: Halifax. Was it? CB: Was it? GM: I should have got myself a map out. CB: Don’t worry. So you then take the boat via Iceland. GM: No. No. CB: You returned. GM: We came - CB: No. GM: Straight back. CB: Straight back. GM: Yes. CB: Ok. GM: It was only on the outward journey we went to Iceland. CB: Ok. GM: So we came back and - CB: Then what? GM: Having landed in the UK we then transferred from the boat to a train and we were taken down to Bournemouth. There was a reception centre there and we then started the familiarisation of being with the RAF and not with the Canadian Air Force. There were differences. CB: Because you’d been fair weather flyers in Canada. Now you were - GM: Indeed. CB: Coming to be foul weather flyers in the UK. GM: Well certainly the weather was more, shall we say, a part of our daily life in Canada the weather was consistently good. There’s no doubt about that and, it wasn’t all that bad in this country but certainly it was, had to be watched and of course it got colder. It was much further north in Ontario which was south of us yes. And that was a different feeling about the whole thing. It was, you were getting near to being or realising that there was a war going on. In Canada it was like peacetime and back home then of course as soon as you were given leave then you returned home and many of us came from London area and of course we experienced the air raids. That was just part of it. From that reception centre and the familiarisation with English service we were posted to the Operational Training Units and as far as I was concerned that was at Lichfield and I won’t say everyone who had been with us in Canada was on that posting but certainly a fair number of us were so we were maintaining the same contacts as we had for quite some time which was very useful. The visit, as I say, to Lichfield was interesting. The familiarisation with the weather conditions was certainly on our minds far more than it had been under the rather stable conditions of Canada and of course when you did get leave you could go home, be with the family which was a great asset. The training at Lichfield lasted a fair time. Some, some months. It got extended. Now it’s here it was all much more serious in our, in our minds. I mean the next stage was to be as a squadron so it was essential that you got as much experience as you could while you were still in a training situation. CB: What was the first thing you did when you got to Lichfield? [pause] GM: I think it was normal reception procedure. We had quite a pleasant reception on returning to this country and to go down to Bournemouth but you went up to this place and we were on for a fortnight or maybe for three weeks we were not on the main station but we were in the familiarisation situation and as the accommodation became available in the, training establishment which we would occupy for a month or two at OTU. The weather was a bit of shock I admit. It certainly was a lot cooler and flying in the blackout was an entirely new venture as far as we were concerned. We certainly had to get used to that through the winter of course. Then it doesn’t get light until what half past seven getting towards 8 o’clock and certainly it got dark in late afternoon. Five, 6 o’clock at the most so it rather altered our lifestyle but it was good to get into the area where things were beginning to happen and we recovered our enthusiasm I think. After that first two or three weeks we were then posted on to the main station at Lichfield and we then started flying. CB: Ok let me just interrupt a mo. So you arrive on your own but to fly you have to be in a crew so how did that work? GM: Ah. This is the point we were, came from various places and we had a period, some of this period was on the earlier three weeks and you just lived with the other youngsters, they were, and we sorted ourselves out into crews so that you’d found some likeness in your thinking and in your, the type of youngster that was there and the crews came together sort of voluntarily. It didn’t always work and you had to make changes providing the instructors there had decided that it was better if you worked with somebody else. So it was mostly a voluntary crewing up I would say and where there was a need for, to get a move on so to speak if you didn’t crew up voluntarily which started usually with the pilots. There were two pilots if I remember rightly and a navigator and then of course, as it was Wellingtons then, we had a couple of gunners and the bomb expert. So that was a rather peculiar setting as we had a bomb aimer as well. There were two of us who were capable of carrying on with that role but we sorted ourselves out and the course progressed and as a crew then you started taking some of your spare time together and, or all of it just depending on how you hit it off and the crews gradually gelled into a working unit. I don’t recall in my particular connection whether there was anybody who couldn’t work with their opposite number. CB: So when you were on the OTU what were the main tasks preparing you for the next stage? GM: Well there was the conversion of course from the aircraft that we’d used in the States, not the States, in Canada and pilots were having to do what was necessary and instead of flying Ansons then they were having to change onto Wellingtons which was quite a difference I understand but as far as the navigators were concerned whilst the pilots were doing their conversion then we were flying. I suppose it took about a fortnight, three weeks we were flying Ansons and doing navigation exercises. Of course the British countryside and the British weather and the like whilst the pilots were converting on to the bigger and heavier aircraft. CB: So you’re all in the Wellington. You finished the OTU. Then what? GM: We had a bit of trouble with a crash. Whilst we were at Lichfield yes we took off for a morning exercise, the power units started giving the pilots trouble so we converted er completed the approach to the circuit and we were on the way towards the aerodrome on this first, I’d better just start that again. This was a particular period after the training and we took off and the idea was to fly around and go over the aerodrome. That was your start of the exercise so you noticed the time and the details and you went off to do the exercise but in this case we got half way around on the first circuit and we started to get in to trouble with the engines and we couldn’t maintain height so before completing that circuit where you note the time and set off on the exercise as we approached that part of the flight then we lost height rather drastically and we made a wheeled up on approach, crossed over the railway line and a station and lobbed down into the fields on the east side of the railway and buckled the plane up and the pilot was injured so we he was carted off to hospital and the rest of us, who were in the crash positions when we hit the ground, got a few bruises and a shake up and we’d lost our pilot. So we then had a short period and a new chap, Australian, as all those particular pilots were. Another Australian to be the first pilot. So we changed crew a bit and that was that. We survived, survived the crash. Two or three day’s leave. Probably it was a week. I don’t really remember now but we had a short period off and when we came back then we were then reintroduced to the training and we continued until we got to the end. At the end of that particular training then we did a first flight to Germany and back as an introduction I suppose to what it was going to be like. We had a, yes a satisfactory introduction ourselves with the new pilot and we were quite happy as it went. The other chap, who was the Australian, Don Jennings, he was off, I think he had a broken leg. I wasn’t sure but because he got out of the plane and he got a few yards from the nose of the aircraft and he collapsed. I think he’d got a broken leg but I can’t swear to that. Then we were posted having satisfactorily done our first visit over enemy territory and went on leave and we didn’t get our actual place of posting to, at that time. I think it came by letter. I can’t be sure. It’s a detail that doesn’t matter but we were posted as a crew. I’m not even sure whether anybody else was posted with us. We were posted to Elsham Wolds. CB: Didn’t you go to the Heavy Conversion Unit first? GM: No. Not, not to my knowledge and this was, this was in early ’42. CB: There weren’t any. GM: There weren’t any. CB: No. GM: As such. CB: Right. Ok. So straight to the squadron. What was the squadron? GM: 103. CB: And what were you flying? GM: Wellingtons. 1Cs. CB: Ok. Yeah. GM: We were, as a crew given, so to speak, to an experienced pilot there who was already there and got a number of trips under his belt and we then started flying together and getting used to each other’s abilities and moods I suppose. The, we did a bit of flying for a short period and then we were put on our first trip which was a thousand raid on Cologne. We went on all the thousand raids. CB: Ok. So what was that like? GM: Spectacular. On sort of a, I mean a thousand aircraft and they got everybody over in about ninety minutes. I think that was, I can’t quote you for sure about this. That’s the general impression that I received. We did two. Was it? And then there was, there was a break and then we did, I think there was a third one but that’s just a detail that doesn’t really matter. And then it was time to be posted and we said, ‘It starts now.’ Yeah. So, and the - CB: So how many raids, how many operations did you do from, with that, with 103 from Elsham Wolds? GM: Seventeen but after we’d done ten then we changed aircraft to Halifax. Four engines. I didn’t fly Lancasters at all. [pause] CB: Let’s stop. GM: We went - CB: No carry on, go on. GM: We were allocated to an experience pilot of course when we got there and so we had two pilots. Like us the trainee who we hoped we were beyond that stage by now and also a chap who’d been with the squadron for some time so that your early flights were all done with somebody who knew the score so to speak. Essential. Anyhow, the period we started flying seriously of course was, as I say, with the first thousand bomber raids which were oh about a third of the year away in 1942 and we converted on to Wellingtons. No. The - CB: On to the Halifax. GM: Halifax. CB: When was that? GM: That was roundabout July. We were there in time to do the thousand raids and our score trips was around about ten I would imagine when we changed over and we started operating the four-engined aircraft. That took us through September and in to October and on our seventeenth which was in to the Ruhr. Anyhow, that was a disastrous raid as far as we were concerned. We bombed the target, came away from it, we were only about ten thousand feet. We found at that time between ten and twelve was moderately safe for our purposes anyhow and on the way out from the target we were found by an ME110 and he just sort of hung on to the back of us about four hundred yards back and so it raises the question well what do you do about it. And so we did. We opened fire with the rear gunner and the mid upper and that didn’t please him at all so he then opened up and his accuracy from his point of view was pretty good. Anyhow, he hit the rear gunner, the bulk of the crew of course were up towards the nose end and the ammunition was zinging around. You could see it, some of it inside the fuselage. How I didn’t get hit I don’t know. Anyhow, we caught fire in the two inboard engines. The outside engines in both cases seemed to survive but we weren’t going to be able to get the fires out. There was no way about that. It was too fierce so the skipper said, ‘Bale out.’ I was in the nose of the aircraft in the navigator’s position and I was sitting on top of the front escape or entry position and skipper said, ‘Everybody out,’ and so I got up from my seat, folded it back, picked up the door or the flap whatever you’d like to call it, the hatch and turned it over and dropped it out of the bottom of the aircraft. Nobody was going to want it so and then with the parachute on I did what they said. Get out. So I sat down with my legs dangling out of the hole and gave myself a push and I slid out. I don’t know what height we were. This all happened very quickly and I fell some distance. Pulled the chute. That was the decision and it seemed a very short time, having just got my legs down that I was crashing through branches of a tree from top downwards and came to a rather ragged halt and swinging there I could hear a dog barking and I was just swinging in the harness. I couldn’t feel how high I was. It was pretty dark. So in the end I turned the parachute harness to the on position if that’s the right way and/or the off perhaps and banged the harness catch, the harness flew away and stayed up in the branches of the tree and I dropped. Fully twelve inches I would say and I was hanging there and in then the next second I got my feet on the ground. Wonderful. Started the dogs barking a bit more. I thought well there’s a farmhouse down there, I’d better get out of the way so I left the parachute and the harness up in the tree. It was probably, what, fifty sixty feet high, seemed to be a very high tree and so somebody got the parachute silk if they managed to get it down. I felt, made my way out of the foliage of the hedge in to the next field and made my way down a slope. A hundred or so yards or so of passing down a field and then I went through a hedge and dropped down on to a road and it fell away to the right so I had a quick look up at the sky and I could see where north was so that told me that’s where the North Sea is and I hadn’t got much of a clue where we were because we’d travelled quite a bit and in the plane as it burned. I went a short distance down the lane there and went past three or four people standing outside of a house and I ignored them. They were watching the raid which was going on in the distance away to the east so I hadn’t travelled very far even though it seemed a long time for us to still be within sight of where the raid was being, taking place. Complete muck up of timing as far as I was concerned but there we are so I continued walking. I was going north and decided that wasn’t a good thing and there was a lane turning off to the left and sort of a rise and so I thought well the only thing to do was to get oneself down south. It’s not going to be any easy to get across the sea around Northern Belgium and, or Denmark or anything like that so I decided that I’d make for Gib. It seemed an incredibly long distance but it seemed the best thing to do so I went up this side road, it rose and when I got to the top of the rather meagre rise I could see that the plane had crashed about a mile, a mile and a half away and it was burning away merrily. I had no idea what had happened to any of the other crew having jumped and been, ’cause I was told to get out of the way so everybody else could get out and I obliged. So anyhow I then decided that I’d have to go to the general area of Spain so I turned south taking my bearings from the stars and set off. I walked all that night. This was only about half past ten in the evening, it was quite an early raid and so I travelled a good few miles. I didn’t meet anybody at all. I travelled on the roads and in some cases I crossed fields and the like and just with the general aim of going in a south-westerly direction. I’d got a compass in my gear and that was it. I walked until the light began to show. In that time I’d done quite a lot of road walking and there was one part of it which went due west so I followed that through and then as it was beginning to show signs of getting light I thought, now to do, what do I do now? Anyhow I was approaching a village and there were field on the right, just ahead of me was village buildings started so I thought well I’d better go around the back so I turned right, went past the property there onto a footpath, followed that around and the light was getting a bit stronger so I thought well I’ve got to had to hide somewhere. So I was dead lucky. I found a farm road and I could tell that there was buildings down the end of it and I thought perhaps that was the farm itself and anyhow the clump of trees with some undergrowth and the road towards what I thought would probably be the farm went past it so I got myself into the clump of trees with the yes with a few thickets growing there and so I was out of sight and I went to sleep. When I woke up I could hear people talking and it was daylight and I carefully sort of took stock of my surroundings and workmen were going, of some sort, were going along the, that approach road that I had spotted and they obviously were farm workers because they seemed to go down to the farm and then they started their working day and there was a, the whole, there was a hillock. Couldn’t have been much more than that as part of where the trees where I was sheltering under was part of that so, and I could hear people working at the top of this rise sort of. I’d say that was it. Then I sort of got here into the trees and there was a rise with the trees in a clump and up on the top there where the actual farmable roads were, farmable fields were then there seemed to be a number of men doing whatever men do on fields in the autumn but I could hear them chatting away and talking and fortunately none of them came into the copse where I was trying to keep myself out of sight and that, so the days lasted and sometime just before it was getting, beginning to get dark then they all knocked off and they went past and went to the farm. Presumably at the end of their working day. So I thought well there’s nothing here for me and I didn’t have much in the way of, I had a bit of chocolate and a couple of toffees or something like that in my pocket so I sort of started off as soon as it was dark and went, followed my general trend in a south westerly direction and this went on for something like four days. Maybe it was five. I don’t know. I lost count somehow or another. I certainly covered some fair old ground in amount and each time as it began to get light then I had to find a hiding place and the most exotic one I suppose was I finished up in the middle of a village. It had got a High Street and had a bombed house there. It was beginning to get light so I took a chance on it and I assumed it was a bombed house. The windows had gone and it looked as if it had suffered some sort of damage. It may well be that it was just bad housekeeping and it had got deteriorated in the normal course of events. Anyhow, I sort of went around to the side entrance of the house and I saw there was a water butt with water coming into it, rain water. So I got my first drink for some time there and whilst I was standing there drinking the water in this tank I heard some footsteps crunch and just down about fifteen, sixteen feet away on the front of the, this house there was a road and somebody in uniform stopped and I could see them looking around and then they started looking up the alleyway where I was standing by the water butt and I froze. And after a couple of minutes he went off. So I thought that’s, that’s not much good. Anyhow, I went into the house and it was dry. I went upstairs and there was no furniture in the house. It was empty and it had been, considering that it was, I thought it might be a bombed house but I didn’t see any other bomb damage perhaps it was just general degrading of the property. Anyhow, I bedded myself down on the first floor in the front bedroom and I’d been up all night walking and what have you so I lay myself down and had a sleep and when I came too I could hear people chatting so I just stayed still where I was. I heard somebody, some boys down below and one of them started coming up the stairs and fortunately he gave it a second thought and went back so he didn’t see me and as it was the school lunchtime period they all disappeared and I was left. I could look out of the window and see people doing their shopping and what have you in the shops close by. I kept myself well down so that I wasn’t spotted at all and eventually lights of some sort began to show and then they had the blackout going of course and once the people had got off the street there didn’t seem to be many people occupying the pavements during the blackout period and I thought, time to go. So I did. I got downstairs, out of the house, there was nobody about much so I just made my way out of the property in the general southwest direction and away we went. Well eventually, I, one of these midnight walks and what have you I got soaking wet in rain and I’d been walking about an hour or so I suppose and so I thought, oh well the best thing I could do is go back to my last place and dry out. I didn’t want to get through anything. I hadn’t got any food so I was rather low mentally on that. Anyhow, I did turn around and started walking back and went through in the return direction, a road that I’d already been along and I saw the property which was showing a light. It shouldn’t have been but it was so I stood on the opposite side of the road and watched the house. There was no movement or anything like that at all so I thought well the rain had stopped and I was beginning to dry off, feeling in a better mood and so I went across, banged on the door and obviously I startled the family and a man put his head out, ‘Qui es la?’ So I thought well my French is no good so I said, ‘RAF. Air force.’ And then I had to repeat that and he got it because he didn’t say anymore just slammed the window, I heard him running, coming downstairs, he opened the door, he looked at me and I showed him a couple of my badges on my uniform. I mean I struck oil. That was the beginning of making contact with the resistance. CB: I’m going to suggest we stop there for a mo. [machine paused] CB: So we’ve got to the stage where the man has left you, let you into his house. GM: Oh yes. Yes. And his wife came thundering down the stairs to see what was happening. And they were very kind. They were very kind. My language was not very good but we managed to make ourselves understood with each other and they produced some food for which I was infinitely grateful. I’d gone through quite a few days without. And then there was a bang on the door and in walked a local padre and he’d obviously been made well aware of my nationality because he started to speak to me with a few questions in English. I don’t think he got a great deal but enough for us to settle with each other that we were both on the same side and he said, ‘You’re coming with me.’ So I thought, that’s, you know, that’s good and we left the couple who had fed me and watered me and we set off and we walked to the next village and we went into the manse. I suppose that’s the proper name for it. Anyhow, it’s where he lived and worked and I was introduced to his housekeeper. She obviously was used to seeing strange people and she gave me a grin and shook my hand and that was it so I was then sent to bed so to speak and waited. Yes. We come, oh wait a minute. Have we got away from the first house I called in? CB: The house where they, you called in and he was upstairs and came down and opened - GM: Yes. CB: And let you in. GM: Yes. Let me in and they - CB: Fed you. GM: Fed me. That’s right. And the local priest then came and he collected me and we went to his home. CB: Right. GM: That’s right. Yes. Well that was temporary. I don’t, I must have stayed there overnight. I think they were, they were a little bit perturbed because they had a young son so they sort of kept me out of sight whilst, before he went to school otherwise it would have been all around and during that period on the following day I had a visit from a lady who was in the business of getting people away under these sort of circumstances and so I was taken to another village and I stayed there for a short while. Subsequently men came and we chatted a bit and I went with him on a train journey. [pause] And where did we get? I’ve lost my thread a bit. CB: We can stop. GM: Sorry. CB: We can stop a mo. [machine paused] GM: But I banged on the door. CB: Yeah. GM: And they let me in and they fed me and I then went with the local priest. CB: So you went to his house, you said. GM: Yes. CB: And then - GM: And then, having stayed two nights. Yes. I think we can, stayed two nights. CB: Ok. GM: I was taken by, to be honest I don’t know who the bloke was there. No. [pause] CB: Well it doesn’t matter - GM: Anyway. CB: What his name is. If we can just - GM: No. CB: Yeah GM: After the second night sleep there I was collected and escorted into - [pause] GM: I’m getting muddled up now. This is ridiculous. CB: Let’s just have another break. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gordon Mellor. Three Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-08-17 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMellorGH160817 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Description An account of the resource Gordon Mellor grew up in London and was hoping to become a quantity surveyor, when he was called up. He volunteered for the Air Force and trained as a navigator in Canada. On his return to the UK he and his crew were posted to 103 Squadron at Elsham Wolds. Returning from an operation to the Ruhr, they were shot down by a night fighter. When Gordon baled out he landed, initially, in a tree and before finding a hiding place. He then began his experience of being on the run. Eventually, he managed to make contact with the Belgian resistance and the Comete line, who began the process of guiding him home. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Belgium Canada Gibraltar Germany Great Britain Spain England--Lincolnshire Germany--Ruhr (Region) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940 1941 1942 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:28:00 audio recording 103 Squadron aircrew bale out bombing bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942) crash crewing up de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007) evading Halifax Me 110 navigator Operational Training Unit RAF Elsham Wolds RAF Lichfield Resistance training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/553/8820/PMellorG1501.2.jpg ec53d3c84b8db787d307d49e498fe698 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/553/8820/AMellorGH160822.2.mp3 7d3219223e8eb485a7c531b5af763278 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mellor, Gordon Gordon Herbert Mellor G H Mellor Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mellor, G Description An account of the resource Four oral history interviews with Gordon Mellor (1919 -2018, 929433, 172802 Royal Air Force). He trained in Canada as an observer and served as a navigator with 103 Squadron. He was shot down over Holland in 1942 but evaded capture. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-06 2016-06-07 2016-08-17 2016-08-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document GM: Let me see. CB: Just let me just - GM: Yes. CB: Introduce it. So today is, we are reconvening with Gordon and the date is the 22nd of August, in the afternoon and we are just going to pick up from the point where Gordon had been, he had met the priest who was in the area where he’d been walking and he’d taken, the priest had taken him to his own house. GM: That is correct. CB: So, over to you Gordon. GM: Right. Well. The walk to the house that has just been mentioned of course was taken rather late in the day after the curfew so we didn’t meet anybody during that sort of mile, mile and a half walk but on arrival then his housekeeper was still up and we were fast approaching midnight and having received an introduction and I’m not sure what the drink was, I think possibly it was either coffee or something like that, on the other hand coffee keeps you awake but it was then off to bed in the priest’s own home and when I woke up in the morning then he was out on his duties but I was given breakfast and was told that there was one or two things that needed to be dealt with and[that the priest would be back and we would deal with it then. So he did return in due course and he wanted a certain amount of information about what I was and where had I come from and he said that I would have a visitor in the afternoon to keep me entertained. I’m not quite sure what the entertainment was supposed to be other than just talk and that happened indeed. A very nice lady turned up and introduced herself. The priest was out. The housekeeper which we have met already she may well have been somewhere in the house but she wasn’t noticeable at all and I then proceeded to tell the young lady where I’d been and where I was hoping to go which seemed to be very suitable and she made a number of approaches, asking questions and assessing in her own mind whether I was on the level so to speak or was, what also, could also be called a plant. Somebody to find out the information under the guise of being a helper. But this lady was a compatriot and she was a helper so when she went she said, ‘You’ll be hearing from us very shortly,’ and very shortly it proved to be. The priest came back and he said, ‘Well you’re off tonight. Just hold on for a little while,’ and certainly there was a gentleman turned up. I hadn’t seen him before. He hadn’t seen me at any time and we had a word or two and then I was, I must have been given a coat to cover up my battledress outfit and with that done we went out of the house, said goodbye to the priest and walked off down the road to a bus stop. That short period of time passed and a busy bus filled with quite a large number of people pulled up and we got on and couldn’t get away from the entrance at the back of the bus so we stuck there and the bus pulled away with us in a little bit of a crush but it was, it was quite comfortable. Shortly after that we then stopped outside which I would have thought was barracks because there was a little group of some five or six German soldiers obviously catching the bus for an evening out on the town and they crushed in and we being the current residents we sort of backed off as much as we could and give them room to get on. So these five or six soldiers were standing there with us standing at the back and the exit to the bus in front of these soldiers. Well we pulled away for about two hundred, three hundred yards and stopped again and it apparently it was probably the other end of the military area and two officers were waiting there and they then proceeded to get in to the rear of the bus and with the rankers were, which was between us and the officers they pushed back and it became quite a crush there. Fortunately it didn’t last overlong and eventually all of the military people got out at, I presume, a place of entertainment or whatever it was, I couldn’t be sure but suddenly there was a lot of room to stand and carry on with the journey which we did and went into a town. I struggle to think of the name of the town but it was towards the city and it was certainly more, more modern than places we had just left but we pulled up in a place where there was a square of sorts, the bus stop being in the square, and got out. So there was just the helper, the chap who was in charge, so to speak, of me and I followed him out. The bus pulled away and I was given to understand that the previous trip that they’d had a lot more soldiers before them so obviously it was a regular route. And then we walked uphill and I hadn’t got a clue where we were actually going other than it was a rise and the normal city houses on either side and suddenly he stopped. The front wall of the house, the living area and what have you was at the back of the pavement. There was no front garden or access like big doors or anything like that but there was just a single door with one or two steps up to each level because the slope of the ground had increased a bit. Banged on the door and in a very short time it was opened and we were beckoned in. I was introduced to a lady who came and the guide made his farewells and left me standing with the two ladies and he went off and I don’t ever remember seeing him again. He was just one of the helpers on the short distance duties. So I then became the guest of the two ladies and they, yes one I think one of them was American married to a German er to a, sorry to a Belgian medical man and she had lived in that area for quite a number of years so they were well known as residents. I stayed there two or three days and in that time I was taken into a, a shop in a nearby town and they had a studio sort of arrangement there. They took your photograph and you then waited a couple of hours and they had done a print and also I’m not sure where the document came from but it turned out to be sort of an identity document. And whether the chap who I had arrived with had got, had it already or whether they carried a stock of them I don’t know but from that an identity card for me with the necessary stamps and what have you was all done and transaction, money passed hands of course and in actual fact they gave me the amount of money so that I paid for it and it didn’t seem to involve the other people at all but never mind. I put it in my pocket and we left and went back to the flat where I was staying. This was obviously a necessity, you had the document with you because after the evening meal and we listened to a bit of the BBC on the radio and we then went to bed and there was a, you would be up fairly early in the morning and so it proved. I was up early and prepared to travel and they had the meal, I couldn’t tell you what the meal contained any more now but it was very satisfying and there was a knock on the door and in marched a helper. I have a job in visualising. I think it was a man, I’m pretty sure it was and he picked, picked me up and he had brought a long coat, a longish coat, overcoat style thing to put for me to put on because I was still in battledress and off we went having said goodbye and thanks to my people who had looked after me there. From there, now let me have a think. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, my recollection tells me that we went to the railway station and, where we were met by another helper and we travelled into [pause] you’d better hang on for a moment. [machine pause] GM: Now let’s see if we can get on. CB: So you were getting on the train. Where were you going? That was going to Brussels. GM: Oh wait a minute. Just a moment. This is where it gets complex. Yeah. Ok we were heading for, heading for Brussels. The question is who was I travelling with? Was it this chap or was it a woman? I think it was a chap. Well, ok. Let’s, I’m sure other people are better at it than I am. [pause] I think I’m right. CB: Ok. GM: I think, yes I’ll have to condense this a bit. CB: Ok. So we’re going to Brussels. GM: Yeah. We’re on the train heading to Brussels and I had, as a companion, somebody I hadn’t met before so we got out short of the main centre in Brussels and we then waited a short while and picked up another local train. More local perhaps than the one we had got off and we travelled the last mile or two within the city and got out. There was no, nobody there that was interested in us. We were just two people travelling and so we, [pause] Yeah. Damn it. Damn it. CB: ‘Cause presumably you changed trains so that if somebody had been watching you. GM: Exactly. CB: They would have expected you to arrive and you didn’t do it. GM: No. It, [pause] I’m sorry about this. CB: Don’t worry. [machine pause] GM: Local train. This obviously was a ploy which was set up and walking down the platform we were then met by other helpers. Two I think there were together and, no, sorry it was only one, it was only one because I was travelling on my own plus the helper. Yeah, that’s right. Yes. I was handed over from one helper to another and he took me away from the chap I’d been travelling with and we passed down onto a local, I suppose we’d call it generally the underground but there wasn’t a great deal of it underground. It was a city line, I think that would be better term and went a few stations and it was indicated by my companion that we should get off at the station we were now running in to so he got up and I sort of, moments later followed him off on to the platform and down to the end of the track at this particular station. Now, we were met again and again there was a handover and shortly I found myself walking up steps from what we would term underground in London these days to ground level and we walked quite a fair way following the roads, busy city streets virtually. It wasn’t countrified at all and eventually we turned rather quickly and we banged on another door of another house and that was just opened smartly and I was being introduced to new members of a new family. So, we’re in town. You’d better switch off again. [machine pause] GM: It was an apartment on the third floor of, now I’m getting mixed up. This is terrible. I’m sorry. I should have done more of my revision. We may have to make a correction. CB: Ok. GM: We walked to a place which I was going to stay and it turned out to be a flat on the third, third floor up in the air and there was a husband and wife and I think we were a bit later than they thought. Anyhow, there also turned out to be some children and I saw them and they saw me and we did have a certain amount of chatter going. My French was pretty nil so I didn’t say much and as far as I can recall the meeting with the children was terminated and where they went after that I’m not quite sure but I stayed at this family for a few more hours into the evening until somewhere around about nine or half past when it was dark. Then I was picked up and we took a bus to another part of the city and got out. A short walk and as far as I can remember we then went up to the first floor, first or second floor, it must have been second and my leader or companion had a key and he opened the door of a flat and he introduced me into an empty space other than than the fact that it was furnished. There was nobody there and I was told about the facilities and, bedtime. [pause] GM: Now, I have a feeling that I have omitted an important item. Somewhere on the way through the previous places I went to I picked up a companion. I think it was a, the last one, when I first arrived in the, in the town. Anyhow, it turned out to be a Irishman. He also had been on bombing trips and he had come down and been a prisoner of war. Now, he got away from being put out to grass so to speak or put out to work. I think his name was Michael Joyce, offhand. And we were to stay with each other on occasions most of the way back home. In the future that was, of course. I can’t. Anyhow, Mike and I got on well together and eventually after a couple of days and being very well treated by the lady of the house who obviously was well connected and also well interested in helping us. We were then passed on. From here we, now did we? [pause] I’m sorry to be hesitant - CB: That’s ok. GM: With the, with the information. CB: Well we can cut out the hesitations. GM: Yes. CB: I’ll just pause it for a mo. GM: One moment. [machine pause] CB: So you and Michael Joyce became inseparable for the rest of your trip. Is that right? GM: Not, not entirely. We were sort of companions but on occasions they could only take one person in one house or one establishment so we were parted on occasions for overnight stays and the like. It was only a matter of a day or two. I’ve got it all written down in the books. CB: Yeah. Quite. GM: Well certainly my memory has slipped on some of this. [pause] We’ve got about as far as Brussels haven’t we? On that train journey. CB: Yeah. What were the people doing while you were there? GM: Have I told you that I’ve had a change of clothes? CB: No. GM: Ah. CB: Other than a coat. GM: Yes. CB: So what did you do with your uniform? You needed to keep that on didn’t you so you weren’t shot as a spy? GM: Well no. Some, somewhere, it must have been the people with the young family. Anyhow, somebody had the suit, had my uniform with the intention of using the material to make something smaller presumably from it and I was given a suit, trousers and jacket in place of the uniform trousers and blouson which one wore as part of battledress. So that got rid of the clothes as far as my part, which was a major issue because whilst I was still in uniform, as you say there was a certain safety in it and then of course it was recognisable as being nothing like they were wearing themselves. Oh my goodness me. CB: So what colour was this suit? Did they do everything in a dark colour? GM: Yes. Medium grey. Towards the darker side perhaps than the lighter. CB: And how would they be dressed at that time? GM: How did they dress? Well they looked the same as everybody else that was walking streets so whatever was commonplace then was - CB: That would be quite dark clothing would it? GM: Well I think the men’s suitings varied from a moderate grey to being perhaps a bit darker than usual. Yes. I can’t recall seeing anything other than a sort of a business sort of appearance to people. CB: Right. Yeah. So they’ve re-kitted you, you’re in Brussels, then what? GM: Oh yes. Oh yes we arrived in a flat which was unoccupied. Furnished but unoccupied. And I stayed there a couple of days and also I had a companion Michael Joyce with me and we stayed there until arrangements had been made to progress forward out of Belgium where we, I didn’t know but Mike’s probably into France and so this turned out to be so. We travelled a fair distance and when we got to the border there again was a sort of a bit of a shambles there as to where we were going but it was only in our minds, Mike and mine because we weren’t, didn’t have the destination made out to us. It was best that we, the least we knew of the route was perhaps the best so eventually when we re-joined the train service we progressed from our point of staying to the border which turned out to be between Belgium and France. That was more, it was a bit scary one way or another because everybody was ordered off of the train and there was a train load of people all gathered in little groups all along the platform. Well eventually we had to progress through the customs and having had ourselves sort of identified one way or another they wanted to see a card and showed them there as everybody else seemed to be doing and it was just a sort of a sign to progress forward. So we went through the patrols either who were Belgian on one side and French on the other and the train had been pulled through, empty of course other than its operating crew and was waiting in Belgium for us to get on board which we did. I think in actual fact we did get on in the same compartment as we had previously. I have a feeling that was very likely. Anyhow, the train then sort of started off and it was well filled with passengers and we proceeded across country of course to Paris. By that time it was getting fairly well through the day and it was here that we again had a meeting party and I think there was temporarily there was a bit of a problem as to who and where we were actually going to be for sure but we left it to them and then they sort of resolved all the problems of us arriving. Now, I’ve got a feeling I’ve left something out. CB: Well we can put it in later. GM: Yes. CB: So you’re leaving Brussels on the train. GM: Left Brussels on the train, went through the border controls. CB: Yeah. GM: Got back on the train and arrived in Paris. There we were met and at this point after a, yes, a chat so to speak which was done in a sort of low voice and as far away from other people as possible Mike was then taken away with one of Comete’s people and leaving me for somebody else. In this particular case a local man was, had been invited to do this part of it and we went off of the station through a number of roads to another point which, now, I’m not sure whether that came from – CB: We’ll stop there for a mo. CB: Back on this. So the pilot, where is the pilot sitting? Up on the front left. GM: Front left. CB: Yeah. GM: Where the window - CB: Yes. The glazed area. Yeah GM: Yes. That’s right. CB: Then there are steps - GM: Down. CB: To where? GM: To a lower level. CB: Right. GM: And in that, in that lower level I thought there were three positions. CB: Ok. GM: I thought, under the pilot there was a radio operator and in front of him underneath the, virtually underneath where the pilot’s level. CB: Yes. GM: There was the navigator. CB: Yeah. With a table. GM: With a table and I thought in front of that there was a front gunner. CB: Yeah. GM: Now up, behind the pilot there’s got to be a flight engineer. CB: That’s it. And under the front gunner is the position for bomb aiming. Is that right? GM: Yes. Ah. CB: So the bomb aimer was also the front gunner in the Halifax. Is that right? GM: That worries me a bit. CB: Ok. GM: Isn’t this daft? You live with it. CB: Yeah. Second nature wasn’t it? GM: And you remember it for a half a century or more. CB: Yes. So you said the flight engineer is behind the pilot. Right. And he can communicate directly with the pilot as necessary. Then further back you have two other positions. [pause] CB: The mid upper gunner. Is that right? And the rear gunner. GM: Yes. That is evident I think from the outside photos. CB: Yes. GM: I’m with you. CB: Yeah. So we were just trying to resolve the idea of how a second pilot operation might work. Sometimes bomb aimers did have pilot training. Some of them were qualified pilots and qualified navigators. [pause] GM: There was, it seems a number of the local changes. CB: Yeah. GM: From one particular unit to one somewhere else. CB: Yeah. GM: But at the same level. CB: Yeah. GM: Well yeah I can believe that. CB: Ok. GM: So – [machine pause] GM: Sort of set up in the nose of a Halifax. CB: Was it? GM: On, on certain mark numbers I imagine. CB: So as the navigator how often did you have to move from your seat and why? GM: Good question. Good question. I thought I’d got a sectional display somewhere in the books there with, of the crew positions. CB: Ok. We’ll look at that. But in practical terms on an operation how often would you actually leave your seat until you had to, and go to the, look at the plumbing. GM: One would certainly, for certain one would be out of position during take-off and landing. CB: So you had a specific position to sit in for take-off and landing. GM: Yes. I think - CB: And where would that be? GM: I imagine, I did it dozens and dozens of times, [pause] in the body of the aircraft. CB: Right. Behind the pilot and the flight engineer. GM: Yes. Yes, because we also got in and out of the aircraft at that level. CB: Right. GM: At certain times or on occasions we got in through the nose. CB: Did you? Right. GM: Now this would have been inconvenient. CB: Yeah. GM: Inconvenient at the time preparing to take off. CB: Yeah. GM: Because where the navigator sat was on a hatch. CB: Ah. GM: And that hatch you could pull up and get in and out so that when you made an emergency departure the navigator collapsed his seat back into position on the wall. CB: Yeah. GM: The table was here. CB: Yes. In front of him. GM: Yeah you took up the seat and dropped it out of the hole and followed it. CB: Right. So in the sequence of escape in an aircraft in an event of - GM: Yes. CB: Needing to abandon. GM: Yes. CB: What was the escape sequence for the crew? GM: Pilot said, ‘Prepare to leave the aircraft,’ and then I would get up, shove the drawings, the plans and all of the maps into, we had an incinerator tube I seem to remember. CB: Oh. GM: You could put them in, you could roll up the paper up, put it in, press the button and the electricity would burn whatever you put in. CB: Oh really. Right. GM: That was. That was close at hand so that it could be used in an emergency if you had the time or the documents that needed it. Certainly, when it was said, ‘Abandon the aircraft,’ then we would already have been in the, an open situation where you didn’t have to lift up any more bits of floor or anything like that. The way out was already prepared. CB: Right. GM: So when they said, ‘Abandon the aircraft,’ the navigator was, as far as I know, the first to go out through the front hole. CB: Ok. GM: Because he was, had been sitting on it. CB: Yeah. Right. GM: And you were in the way. CB: Yes. Followed by? GM: Oh the, now was it the radio operator that was next to him at that level? He would go out and then the second pilot. Now, at the rear of the aircraft of course there also was access and - CB: Yeah. GM: Place in the floor and you went out towards, on the, yes if you, with your back to the tail then you would go out on the left hand side. Drop out of that hole which was also was used as an entrance in ordinary usage time. CB: Right. So you climbed in through the floor both at the front and the back. GM: Indeed. CB: Right. Ok. GM: Well certainly at the rear it was more of a hatch because part of the side came away as well so it made the opening more easy to use. CB: Right. GM: But certainly the departure point was there. CB: So how did the rear gunner get out? GM: Well as far as I’ve always known it was standard for them to turn the turret so that his back was in line with the side of the aircraft. In other words - CB: Right. GM: The hole was back here CB: Yeah GM: And as far as I can remember the, he went out the two hatches on the, in the back of the turret. CB: Yeah. GM: I don’t know whether they were disposable or not but I think they certainly would open up. CB: Yeah. GM: And he would go backwards with his parachute on his chest. CB: Oh did he? He had to pick up his parachute first did he or was he wearing it all the time? GM: That raises a question doesn’t it as to the type of parachute he used. CB: Because on the Lancaster he had to reach back into the body - GM: Yes. CB: Into the fuselage. GM: Yes. CB: To pick it up. Did he have to do the same on a Halifax or did he sit on the parachute? GM: I think he had to get, do the same in the Halifax as he did in the Lancaster. CB: Did he? Right. GM: That is my impression. Now, [pause] I didn’t fly in Lancasters so – CB: No. GM: I’m only going with what I’ve been told but I think where possible there was a storage spot for each crew person. CB: Yeah. GM: Close to hand so he could get hold of his parachute himself and clip it on his chest. CB: So you’re the navigator in the front of the aircraft. GM: Yes. CB: You’ve got a folding table because – GM: Yeah. CB: You’ve got map work to do. GM: Yes. A collapsible one. Yeah. CB: Where is your parachute? You’re not sitting on it are you? GM: It’s close by. CB: Right. GM: Because one had to put it on. CB: Yeah. So you’re not sitting on it. GM: And I put it on my chest. CB: Yeah. So on this fateful day you first put on your parachute did you? And then open the hatch, fold your table, your seat and open the hatch. Was that the sequence? GM: The only thing that was foldable was my seat. CB: Right. GM: And that came out on a collapsible sort of frame - CB: Yeah. GM: Or unit from the side of the aircraft. CB: Right. GM: The hole was in the floor. CB: Yes. GM: Not anywhere else. CB: Right. GM: So you sort of went up and down on the floor in that part of the aircraft. I think that’s it. CB: Yeah. That’s good. So we’ll stop just for a mo. GM: Yeah. [machine pause] GM: The place where I landed. CB: We’re talking about meeting Germans. GM: Yes. CB: Yeah. GM: Yes. Just in general, no need to record it. CB: In general terms. GM: Yes just general terms. So I did come across them on most parts of my travelling. CB: Yeah. You came across Germans. GM: Yes. CB: Yeah. GM: Yes. Whilst we were staying, yes while I was staying in Paris then they were all over the place. CB: Right. GM: Even if I was out on a walk with one of the French people. Oh what was his name? Doesn’t matter. CB: Yeah. GM: The residents in the city. Yes he took me out once or twice and we walked streets and what have you and walked up the Champs-Elysees and to some of the other recognised spots and also into a museum and that was, that can all be detailed if you want it at the time and yes but, this was when we stayed in the flat which was unoccupied by anybody else. CB: Yeah. GM: But that was short. We got, we did get farmed out to people and the man was very useful and we eventually picked up an early morning train in Paris heading south. CB: Right. GM: And the intention was to get to, oh what’s the name of the town? Down close to the Pyrenees. CB: Yeah. Bordeaux? GM: Yes. On the way through there yes. And I think, was it St Jean de Luz we stayed in? CB: Right. GM: Or lived in. Possibly so. Having got that far then the party of other, a couple or three people I think we made something like four people together started off one afternoon. That’s not quite true I think we had a train journey. Anyhow, we started off and we climbed up in to the Pyrenees and we did it, some bizarre, we did this during part of this during daylight of course and overnight we went up and down up and down and we crossed the actual border which was the centre of the Bidasoa, whatever its pronunciation is, which was a river and from that position we climbed up to a height but on this time on the south banks of the river rather than where we came down which was on the north ones and eventually we dropped down the Pyrenees slopes to the rather level sort of ground which was in Spain. From Spain of course then having sort of made our presence known then the embassy took over and arranged the transfer of the, I think there was three of us to be taken to the capital and that was all done in one long run. I’m not sure how many hours it took but it seemed to be quite a long way and we stayed in the embassy. CB: It looks as though you went to Saint Sebastian. GM: Yes. CB: With Bernard. And then you went to the British consulate in Bilbao who then arranged for you to go Madrid two hundred and fifty miles away. GM: Very likely. I’m not, I can’t remember how many days we stayed there. We stayed with a couple in their flat in Spain. CB: Right. GM: Probably two nights at the most. I could probably check it and as we say we did this long run down to the embassy in Madrid which is, then, did we actually stay there? Yes they did have quarters there and we became companions of some people who were already on the run so to speak. CB: Yes. GM: And they were flown away. There was, there was some army people around as well. CB: Right. GM: They got away and eventually it became our turn and in the early evening of the last day of October. CB: 1942. GM: ’42, yes. We got on to a train and we did at some point that evening we had a meal. Now I’m trying to visualise exactly where we were. Whether we were in the train or other? Don’t remember much. Anyhow, I know we picked up a separate train from previously which run us down overnight to Madrid and, I got that wrong. CB: Gibraltar. GM: From, from, this was from Madrid to Gibraltar. Yes. CB: Yes. GM: Yes. You’re right. Quite right. CB: The overnight train. GM: Overnight train and we were picked up and met at our destination and we were then, yes. We went, we then went down by train also to Gibraltar. We got out on the Spanish side and I think we had a, had the train across on the railway line which ran through Spain across at Gibraltar and through to what was, I think, the only station in Gibraltar. Perhaps there were two train stops. Certainly there was a terminus in the, in the more or less centre of - CB: Right. GM: That’s right. I suppose it’s an island isn’t it? CB: No it isn’t. It’s a - GM: Yeah. Anyhow, it was a satisfactory termination of the effort to pass across all the necessary spaces to reach Gib and catch the boat on the convenient occasion for us we just waited until we were called but it was only a couple, a couple of nights as far as I can recall. CB: To be returned to Britain. GM: Yes. CB: Yeah. GM: We then flew back to the UK. CB: What did you fly in? GM: Was it a Dakota? CB: Yeah. When - GM: I think so. CB: When you were in Madrid you were in the embassy. GM: Yes. CB: What did the air attaché have to say? GM: ‘Welcome’ [laughs] and he was more interested in identifying us so that he could notify the ongoing people that we were there having escaped and I presume he was he was looking for instructions as to how to get us from Gibraltar to the UK which he did very successfully because we, we flew overnight and landed in Portreath in the early light hours of the following day which was the 1st of November and we had a brief passage through customs in Cornwall and we then went back to the same plane which flew up to, now, somewhere, just west of London? CB: Northolt. No? GM: I think not. CB: Ok I’ll stop there a mo. [machine pause] CB: It went to Aldermaston did it? GM: Possibly. I’ve got it written down. CB: Yeah. I’ve got it. I’ve got Aldermaston here. GM: You’ve got Aldermaston there. CB: Yeah. GM: Well that’s fair enough. CB: Yeah. GM: And there we arrived just after normal meal time. I think more or less 1 o’clock, 2 o’clock in the day and we were fed and then we were transferred to London and we were taken to the headquarters. Now what was the name of the street? Oh my memory is getting terrible. CB: According to this you went - GM: Yes, go on. CB: The Grand Central Hotel. GM: Could well be. CB: In Marylebone. GM: Marylebone. Correct. Yes. CB: Which was the London transit camp. GM: Yes. That’s right. And we were greeted by I don’t know if he was a flight sergeant or whether he was a warrant officer. I don’t even know whether there was an officer on duty then. Anyhow, the chap that met us as we walked in wanted to know who we were, what we were and where we, our homes were which was the most interesting and when I said it was Wembley and there we were at Baker Street and it’s just down the other end of the line so to speak. So he said, ‘You can go home till tomorrow. Be back here at,- ’ I wasn’t sure what the time was. 9 o’clock I think and a couple of the other people who had come over with us they were also given instructions but my Irish companion he was bedded at the hotel there. He hadn’t got any relatives close enough to be of any use. So I went home. You can imagine the results but it so happened that it was still the 1st of November and it was still my birthday. CB: And how old were you that day? GM: Twenty three. CB: Right. GM: I would think. CB: Yeah. GM: Twenty three. Yes. CB: Now what were you wearing? Had you got RAF clothing again or - GM: Ah. CB: Because in your escape through France what were you wearing in the end? Were you in a suit all the way of some kind, provided, or were you - GM: Yes. CB: What were you - GM: That suit materialised while I was still in Belgium I think it was. CB: Right. GM: And they took, yes, somebody had yes somebody had my RAF blouson and trousers of a, in a typical greeny colour. Or it was a grey green colour or whatever battle dress was made of. I lost that but instead of that of course I got a moderately fitting suit which I still had on when I got home and occasionally I used afterwards and as I say we got shot down on what was it, about somewhere about the 4th of October and I walked in on the 1st of November. CB: Were they expecting you to arrive? Had you forewarned them? GM: Yes. My mum, I’d already sent a telegram from Gibraltar home and she was notified by Air Ministry as well ‘cause they were well up on their knowledge of where we were. CB: Yeah. GM: There’s no doubt about that. CB: Right. Now, this companion of yours was he from another squadron or was he from something completely different? GM: What was his name? The Irishman? CB: Yeah. GM: No. We, we only met in extremis so to speak on the way down to Gibraltar. In actual fact I think it was somewhere shortly after Paris or whatever. Anyhow, it was fairly early on that I met Michael Joyce. That was his name. CB: Yeah. GM: And we stayed together to a degree. Sometimes apart sometimes in the same buildings and we certainly got down to Gibraltar together and let’s see, what was his rank? Flight sergeant. I was a flight sergeant at the time. Yes. CB: What crew member was he? GM: Ah you ask some nasty questions my friend. CB: I know. It’s bad isn’t it? GM: Yes. CB: But you get another sweet if you answer correctly. GM: What was his job? CB: He wasn’t a flight engineer like you was he? GM: I was a navigator. CB: Sorry, a navigator like you. GM: No. Mike. [pause] Oh my goodness me. That’s a rotten question. CB: Yes. I’ll give you a different one. In the way down you’re doing everything together so what are your feelings as you are on the escape route and you’re together in hostile territory? What did you feel about that? GM: I’m not entirely sure. I was, I was always happy to tackle things as a single person but it, when we had to do things together then I was quite willing to adapt to those conditions. So I don’t think it made much, made much of an impression on me whether I was working with him or he was acting on his own or I was acting on my own. I think both of us were fairly quick on adapting to changing circumstances. CB: Yeah. GM: It didn’t worry me at all to be, to operate on my own. I did quite a bit of walking from one place to another and in the early days of course I did the first three or four nights as a single figure. CB: Yes. So you get over the Pyrenees. You’re out of immediate German danger. How did you feel about that? What sort of feeling did you have? GM: Oh. Yeah. CB: When you both got over in to Spain. GM: Oh gave a sort of heartfelt but quiet sort of, ‘Yes. This is it. You made it.’ CB: Yeah. GM: There was a certain exultation on my part of having a sort of a smooth way across Europe and I fooled the Germans at it at the same time. CB: So was it a mixture of triumph and relief or something different? GM: Yeah. Well the exact moment that one got over was rather obscure as to exactly where it was that it was the river the Bidasoa the that we had to cross down the valley which is the boundary between Spain and France so in actual fact having got across that river then one was technically in Belgium er not Belgium - CB: Spain. GM: Spain. CB: Yeah. GM: Yeah. The Pyrenees were scattered with people one way or another who seemed to have a reason for being there and I don’t think at the time we realised exactly when we could say when we were in one country or the other. It was just a continuation across, across the high ground. CB: And of course Spain was a fascist country then so how was it - GM: We rather thought they might have been, yeah. I would have thought they might have tried to please the German presence. CB: Yeah. GM: Actually I think amongst a certain range of people it was just the reverse but there we are. CB: Because it was Basque country there of course. GM: Indeed. Yes. CB: So that was anti-establishment wasn’t it? GM: Yes. CB: Still is. GM: Yes. I imagine so. I haven’t been over there for years now but I have made several trips there since the wartime period. CB: So just moving on from there you’re back home, you’ve been told to report the next morning from Wembley back to the hotel. GM: Yes indeed. CB: In Marylebone. GM: That is correct. CB: So then what? GM: We were, there was a special interview I think, that latter part of that day to acquaint us with our situation and answer questions and to only be told that with the amount of knowledge that we carried with ourselves and people in the other countries who were trying to help us that we sort of them owed them a debt, general impression, which I agreed with and then to sort of map out what we would do for the remainder of the, our membership of the RAF and I sort of was aware of some of the ways in which I could proceed. The thing is they said, ‘You can’t go back on ops again with the amount of knowledge that you have of the help that you found available.’ They didn’t say for how long. I got the impression that it was, yes for a period anyhow but I was aware that there was what they called the SN course, The staff navigators course at, up in the Midlands and so I said, ‘Well if we’re going to be posted to do something then I’d like to do that course.’ It was on, a rather special course on navigation and the like so they said, ‘Right,’ and then they said, ‘Of course that is a bit in the future. We’ve already got some people ahead of you on the list but we’ll do it as soon as you can.’ And in the June of ’43, June of ‘43 which was, let’s see, seven, eight or nine months wait then I was posted up into Scotland and one or two other places and in July ‘43 then got married and on the, just before that happened I found out that I was going to be posted from the aerodrome near [pause] Oh God. CB: Which part of the country? GM: Wales. CB: Oh right. Not St Athan. GM: No. No. More or less the border between England and, er England, the border, oh this is stupid. CB: So what purpose was this particular posting? GM: Oh to be on the teaching staff of the navigation. CB: Right. GM: Crikey. CB: Ok. Well we’ll pick that up in a mo. So then before you started you were then on leave to get married were you? GM: Yes. Yes. Yes CB: Where did you go for your honeymoon? GM: Oh West Wales. As far west as you can get. CB: The Gower Peninsula. GM: Not far from it. Yes, the bay goes up in a great big sweep. CB: Oh Cardigan Bay. GM: Cardigan Bay up at the top. CB: Not Aberystwyth. GM: Yes. CB: Right. GM: Yes. Which is a university town. CB: Yeah. GM: The university buildings were to agree to be available for the lecturers and what have you that what I was doing was available so after, after that and we got married, we went up north to the Central Navigation School or whatever they called it, at, yes [pause] oh I’m an idiot. CB: Was that in Scotland or was it in northern England? [pause] CB: Ok. We’ll look that one up as well. So at the Central Navigation School that’s when you did your specialist navigation course. Was it? GM: SN course, yes. CB: Yes. GM: Yes, indeed. CB: Which lasted how long? GM: Three months. CB: How many? GM: Three. CB: Three months. GM: Three months. CB: Right. GM: And - CB: So you went to Cranage. Cranage was the - GM: Yes. CB: Central Navigation School. GM: Yes. Indeed. CB: But it was a three months course. GM: That’s right. CB: And then what? GM: No. That isn’t right. That’s not right. So when did Aberystwyth come in on it? CB: When you went on honeymoon. GM: Yes it did. But [pause] I’m an idiot. [Machine pause] CB: Just while we, right so after you finished at Cranage on your navigation course you said you went to Wigtown. GM: Yes. CB: Which is Galloway. GM: Yes. CB: What were you doing there? GM: That’s where I was part of the lecturing staff and also I spent more time on the arranging of the exercises and what have you. CB: Right. GM: There was some lecturing in it but it was mainly to get these chaps airborne. CB: Yes. GM: Doing the exercises. So, yes I rather rated as part of the overall staff rather than CB: Yeah. GM: Just one particular position. CB: And how long did you stay there? GM: Until a short period after war was terminated. CB: Right. GM: I think the period was, the immediate period was followed by the sending of military people, British military people to Japan. CB: Yeah. Tiger Force. GM: Yes. Yes. I think that took over. They were and then there was in the appropriate time and there was a cessation there and peace was declared so to speak. CB: August ’45. So - GM: Yes. So it was a couple of years I had up in - CB: Yes GM: Scotland generally. CB: So with the end of hostilities in World War 2 what happened next for you? GM: Well, Wigtown, the airfield and what have you there was closed down and I was posted to somewhere in Norfolk. CB: Which part of Norfolk? GM: Cardigan Bay is it? No. Wait a minute. Which is Cardigan Bay? CB: No. That’s in West Wales. GM: Oh that’s not it. On the east coast. CB: You don’t mean Coltishall do you? GM: No. [pause] CB: We’ll stop a mo. [machine pause] CB: So you went to Norfolk with the closure of Wigtown because the war had ended and what did you do there? GM: Well previously while I was at the aerodrome in Scotland - CB: Yeah. GM: My rank had gone up to warrant officer and the chap I was working with said, ‘You can do better than this,’ so I applied for a commission and it was then, that was, that was somebody else’s suggestion and I was supported by the senior officer at - CB: At Wigtown. GM: Yes. And I had the necessary introductions and interviews and I was commissioned. PO. And that was early in that two year stay up in Scotland. By the time I came down to after the closure of the camp there and went to the one that we had just been immediately talking about in - CB: In Norfolk. Yeah. GM: The Norfolk area. Yes. And I finished up a flight lieutenant. CB: What was your role there? Were you teaching navigation in Norfolk or were you planning ops or what were you doing? GM: Oh what did we do? The last weeks. Yes. Oh yes I’d made a study to a fair extent on training for crews on, as far as practical exercises were concerned on navigation so we used to have the whole course or several courses that were run by the station and they used to do exercises on the ground, navigation exercises and we’d feed them with information as to factors and we sort of wrote a scenario or set of circumstances to give the people on the ground the opportunity to resolve their problem, navigational problems and so in actual fact they did a flying exercise except that it was a set procedure on the, on the ground. Sounds a bit rummy but we were able to produce conditions and information so that they could do the navigation exercise in addition to having to do it in the air. I mean there was a big demand for air, air time and part of that air time was giving groups of people, they were full courses in actual fact. These exercises which they could do safely to start with on the ground and then they practised as far as I could tell, at other postings in, with aircraft flying. CB: Were these squadrons that you were teaching or special courses for navigation? GM: They were navigational courses. CB: Right. GM: You had, I don’t suppose one had more than twenty people in any one course and you would have them for a half day and we had a number of, set number of exercises planned out and we provided as much information that we would expect them to be able to receive during the, an actual flight. So it was an exercise modelled on a flying exercise and the actual airborne flying was taken away and so you fed the course in the half day all the necessary factors that they would need to do if they were doing it in the air. CB: So they would then go and fly. What aircraft were they flying? I mean were they Lancs? GM: Ansons I think. CB: Ansons. Right. GM: Yes. A good old workhorse that aircraft. CB: Yeah. With a view to going on to, these were all navigators rather than pilots. GM: Oh yes. They were all navigators. Yes. They took the course. They went through the varying exercises as we could plan them at ground level. CB: Right. GM: And so they got procedures to be familiar with and then they, when they left us they went on a course which tested their application to those features. CB: Right. So you were doing that for a while. When were you demobbed and where? GM: I was demobbed as such from Uxbridge and close by. CB: Did you apply for it? GM: That’s only just – CB: Or were you - GM: No. No CB: Suddenly told. GM: No. When we were posted down from Scotland earlier the previous year and we did a job closer down in Norfolk when ones calling up papers came through and gave you a place to take your demob. So you - CB: Right. GM: Went down to that place at the declared time and they - CB: So that’s May 1946. GM: And gave you the big heave ho. CB: May 1946. GM: Yeah. CB: Now – GM: Was it May? Was it? CB: 16th GM: It was April or May. CB: Yeah. 16th of May 1946 GM: Yes. CB: According to that note. GM: Well that is maybe including - CB: Terminal leave. GM: Terminal leave. CB: Yeah. GM: And your departure date was the end of that terminal leave. CB: Yeah. So how did you feel about that after all the rigours of what you’d been through? Flying and escaping. GM: Feel about it. No. I wasn’t an enthusiast but I thought I should have hated not to have not been part of it. Well I started with navigation and the like. I liked to know where I was and I liked to know where I was going and I think that was a fair guiding light to me pushing in certain directions but having had a very close brush with being terminated whilst I was in Bomber Command I was very thankful to be able to do my bit to progress the hostilities in whichever way they gave me the access to. CB: You explained that they told you couldn’t go back on to ops. How did you feel about that? GM: I don’t think anybody said that you can’t, eventually. I got the impression that it was not going to happen. The decision wasn’t mine it was theirs. [phone ringing] GM: Oh excuse me a minute. CB: Yeah. GM: I’d better find out what it is. [machine paused] CB: So you were married in the war. GM: Yes. CB: Gordon. GM: Yes. CB: And what prompted you to do it during the war and not wait until the end? GM: Well in nineteen, let me start it was a bit earlier than that. CB: Ok. GM: I went to school with a chap and we were more or less together for most of the, that period of schooling to technical college. CB: Yeah. GM: And we continued to be friends. Our families got to know each other. I met his sister who was a couple of years older than him. CB: Yeah. GM: And she was after, after the war was declared, oh I would say that she was a ballet dancer and - CB: Yes. GM: She was in Italy at the time of the declaration of war so she had to get back to the UK. I was in and out of their house a fair bit until we got called up. I’d previously tried to get in to the RAF reserve, volunteer reserve but attending evening classes and things like that four nights a week and the result that I was not particularly fit so I was referred and told to get fit while working five and a half days a week and also doing four evenings of evening classes. It was taking a bit of a long time. So war was declared and the lady in question got herself, with her friends back from Italy to the UK. I got to know her pretty well during the earlier lifetime and so I suppose whenever I came down on leave then we saw each other and in 1943 after my travels we got married in the July ‘43. What point are we trying to make? CB: Well we’re talking about how you got married in the war. GM: Oh. CB: When some people delayed getting married. GM: Yes. Yes. I can, I can imagine that but also I thought we don’t know how long this is going to be going on. CB: Right. GM: I mean we were living so to speak in the forces we were living from day to day. CB: Yes. GM: On, as a basis, whether if you were on active service or were in a similar but not so dangerous situation whatever it was, you were still occupied and we didn’t want to wait. CB: No. GM: For an unspecified period so we got married in the July ‘43. She was in London in a show and with Tommy Handley and that group of people and so she decided that we’d get married. CB: Yeah. GM: So when I got posted up to Scotland then she said, ‘Right. I’m coming up too.’ And we, I got permission to live out and she came up and there was always the chance that she could go back and join another show. Tommy, Tommy Handley was a considerable friend of hers so it ended very happily on the whole. The only problem was medical but that’s not part of the news I spread around. CB: No. No. GM: But it was a considerable problem. Considerable problem. After the wartime period when both David and, who died now and Paul, my, who is my remaining son. Yes we were very happy to get two children and but it was a difficult situation. Sort of a, I think she had two or three other pregnancies which didn’t mature. CB: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When did she pass away? GM: August 1999. CB: Gosh. A long time ago. GM: Well, last century. CB: Yes. GM: Yeah. No. She was, she was in her nineties anyhow. So - CB: After the war what did you do then? GM: Oh well - CB: You were demobbed so now what? GM: Yes. I was demobbed I’d already, during the leave, made contact with the chartered surveyors that I was working for in the pre-war period and so I went back there. The wages were not brilliant and I don’t suppose we had a vast amount of savings but we had savings anyhow so instead, working up in Norfolk with the air force my term had come so I got the demob instructions and I took them. Money being what it is well I’m being paid by the air force for my demob my leave period so I had a week’s leave and we got back home. We stayed with my mother. She was living on her own. My father had died during the period of the war and so we started living together there. We’d been living together in various places around the country when, between marriage and the war finishing which was about two years I suppose. CB: They wouldn’t pay the marriage allowance would they? The air force allowance during the war because you were underage. Under twenty five in other words. GM: Yes. No. No. Do you know I haven’t really considered the, what happened from the money point of view. We seemed to be, had enough money. CB: Comfortable. GM: Comfortable yes. Comfortable. During that period that I was up in Scotland and what have you because at most of that time then we lived together and when I was demobbed then as I say we were living together with, at my mother’s house even though my wife’s parents only lived a ten minute walk away. CB: Oh right. GM: So my old school chum was now a brother in law I suppose. Yes. CB: Yes. GM: Yes. Well he was brilliant at his job. He was a scientist - CB: Oh. GM: From the Natural History Museum. CB: Oh. GM: And that he continued as his career until he died. CB: So you went back to being a surveyor. GM: Yeah. CB: What did you, how did that progress for you? Did you stay with your original employers or did you move to something different? GM: Well I stayed with them and the requirements were that I became a chartered surveyor. CB: Yeah. GM: So I started, or had already started the course at Regent Street Polytechnic and I say I was there for varying periods. I think the most I ever spent was four, four nights a week in classes. It’s a bit misty some of those periods but I stayed there and took the exams with the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors and the intermediate got through and got to the finals and was and I had an offer to work for somebody else which was London County Council. CB: Right. GM: I had applied for a job there. Mainly because the people that were under training at that time of course were the people I’d met on courses elsewhere and I stayed there until, yes, until I got my qualifications and then I changed. Mainly it was the people I knew at Regent Street Polytechnic became my sort of friends and so the job became available which I applied for and got and I was with friends virtually straight away which was socially was yes, an advantage. CB: So you stayed with London County Council until retirement did you? GM: That is so. CB: And when did you retire? GM: Oh what a horrible question to ask. I was sixty four and I had the sum of that year so now - CB: I’ve got the answer to that in here. So that was 1973. GM: Was it? Ok. Right. Well yes I came out in the in the summer of ‘73 and - CB: Just before your birthday did you? GM: Something like that. CB: Yeah. GM: Yes. CB: And did you then pick up other things in your retirement or did you have a quiet time? GM: No. Evening classes I say were, absorbed a lot of my spare time but I became qualified became a chartered surveyor and also I was working for London County Council when the results came out so I was quite happy with that. I was working with people I knew and yes, and in a job which I enjoyed and the outcome was I think fairly reasonable and in my favour. CB: Yeah. What I meant was after an active life when you come to retirement there can be a vacuum and I wonder what you picked up in your retirement you see. GM: So, let’s see. CB: Hobbies. GM: Yes I I’d been a keen photographer for a long time. I didn’t do it professionally. I did some pictures for people now and again but it was just on a friendly basis and I, yeah, retirement. Oh yes at that time after I finished working for the quantity surveyors as such they from time to time wanted help for additional work. They had regular staff but sometimes the demands on the staff exceeded their people that were available to do it. CB: Their capacity. GM: Yeah. CB: Yeah. GM: So on occasion I worked for the same people, on the same as my job and I got paid for my professional help. This went on until demand diminished so I didn’t kill my pleasures of the time with it but I certainly, I fitted it all in. CB: Yeah. Now having escaped by parachute from an aeroplane that made you a member of the Caterpillar Club. How did that fit into your life as an association? GM: Well now and again there were events which attracted me I suppose. I was just thinking what else was. Oh yes. The boys were growing up. We’d had two children and I became interested in the scouting movement and the boys were gradually being absorbed in to that movement and I was asked to, if I’d become one of the management committee or whatever it was of the scouting movement. We had a sort of family connection with the movement and I sort of became part of the local troops and so we took part in some of the administration that was related to our area. Yes. It was a, it was a pleasurable time and it occupied a number of events and both the boys were keen scouters so I think it was a reasonable changeover and still gave you that sensation of being wanted. CB: Yeah. Now in a way, for other people looking in, one of the most cataclysmic times of your life was being shot down and then escaping. GM: Oh yes been a big factor. CB: How did you then link which you alluded to earlier with the people who’d helped you return to Britain successfully? GM: Ah. Well there was an organisation which was set up, I suppose, known as the RAF Escaping Society and I think that was set up around about the end of the war or shortly afterwards and various meetings were attended. Yes. One sort of kept an, kept an interest so that it was like other military or semi military organisations. You had the regular sort of programmes throughout the year of remembering the people of your life, in the past and like any of these organisations like the British Legion which is more or less run on those styles so you had while you were working on civilian occupations then you also maintained the friendships and the relationships as you had done for the six years in the war with other people who were doing the same job as yourself. CB: Yeah. This is how you link with Air Commodore Charles Clarke? GM: Yes. I know him and yeah I respect him and we have met from time to time but we’re not social friends. CB: Right. GM: As such. CB: No. GM: No. He’s Charles Clark. I’m Gordon Mellor and we both live in different areas. We see little of each other but we are sociable with each other and this applies to quite a lot of other people who were in the air force. CB: Indeed. GM: You maintain the sort of interest as much as possible but it’s got to take its place in your life. CB: What about 103 Squadron Association. Was that active? GM: Yes. Still is. This coming weekend I’m going up there. I am, am I the president? I think I’m the president of the members of the Association. I seem to be in that sort of role. Yes. CB: The driving force there. GM: Yes. I think so. Somewhere on the papers it shows. Yes. CB: Ok. GM: I’m the President. Yeah. CB: Good. GM: Yes and I think one stays there until you - CB: You feel you’ve had enough. GM: Fade away. CB: Yeah. GM: I’m not even sure you can retire but you never know. CB: Well there are a number of active members still on all these things? CB: Yes. GM: Yeah. They are going down of course in number. CB: Yeah. Yeah. GM: There’s a number who are, yes. Now they’re getting on quite well. Many of us are in our ninetieth or thereabouts. You have to have been to have been in the wartime period. CB: Yes. Exactly. Gordon Mellor. Thank you very much indeed. Really interesting. GM: Thank you for coming. Mucked it up to a certain extent in the latter times because I should have done better really. CB: Well don’t worry we’ll link it all altogether. GM: Yes. Ok. CB: Thank you. GM: Come back to the subject and we can have a bit of time then I’ll give you better answers than I’ve done it off the cuff I expect. CB: Ok. That’s fine. Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gordon Mellor. Four Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-08-22 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMellorGH160822 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Description An account of the resource Gordon Mellor successfully evaded capture, having baled out of his aircraft and landed in Germany. He walked for several days until he managed to make contact with the Belgian resistance and the Comete line, who began the process of guiding him home. He was provided with false documents, a suit and taken by various routes, staying in various safe houses. He had the experience of sharing a crowded bus with German soldiers and officers. Eventually, the members of Comete got Gordon across Belgium, France and into Spain from where he was then taken to Gibraltar. He flew back to the UK on his 23rd birthday, and became an instructor training other navigators. After the war Gordon returned to Chartered Surveying. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Belgium France Gibraltar Germany Great Britain Spain France--Paris Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942-11-01 1943 1946 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 02:00:54 audio recording 103 Squadron aircrew Anson bale out de Jongh, Andree (1916 - 2007) evading navigator RAF Wigtown Resistance training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/561/8829/PStonemanWJ1605.jpg 889a4d1d0af552221054f861e73b2214 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/561/8829/AStonemanWJ161114.mp3 2dfa9efaf8411e162dbfb9dd0d0d01ba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Stoneman, William James W J Stoneman Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stoneman, WJ Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Squadron Leader William James Stoneman (1923 - 2017, 186627 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a rear gunner with 138 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-11-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document This interview is being conducted on behalf of the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Rod Pickles, the interviewee is Bill Stoneman. The interview is taking place at Bill’s home in Newquay, Cornwall on the 14 November 2016. Also present is Pam Roberts who is Bill’s carer. Well good morning, Bill, and thank you for inviting me in, it’s lovely to be here with you. RP: Pleasure. RP: The story we want to hear is yours and the voice we want to hear is yours, so I’ve just asked the initial questions and let you carry on. AS: Yes. RP: So, can we sort of go back to the time, you’re approaching leaving school and thinking about what to do with your life and what prompted you to join the RAF? AS: Yes. It was when the war started, 1939, I was 16 years of age so it was like all the other boys, wanting to join the service at the time but being under age, I couldn’t so I had to wait until I was 18. Ah, when I was 18, I went to, I had a girlfriend in St Leonards, I lived in the Cley area at St Leonards. My hobby was music, I played in quite a famous silver band, St Leonard’s Silver Band, and won trophies, very well known throughout the band world. I also played in dance bands. The girl I was in love with, a girl called Barbara Hale, her father owned a restaurant, believe it or not, in a small village in St Leonards. There was a restaurant with one big room on the first floor, which was used for weddings and things by the local people, and I was engaged by him for a very small amount of money, but when he wanted a band to play at the weddings, I would get five or six musicians and provide the music and, of course, to be near this girlfriend Barbara who, of course we were married in 1947. I then left St Leonards to go to Bristol, because they moved to Bristol. He was given a job, he was asked to take over, he had a catering background, my wife’s father, and he was asked to take over, umm the catering at a large place in Bristol, which was used for trainees in the engineering and electrical engineering world. They always had a big restaurant there he took on the job, and I went with the family and lived with them. I then went to the local government training school to become an instrument repairer or instrument maker. Whilst I was there, I saw chaps in uniform, especially round the Bicester area and there was a lot of flying going on, especially with Bristol Aircraft who made the Beaufighter and the Beaufort and that. So, I went along to the recruiting centre and joined the RAF with the idea of being an instrument maker. However, ahh there was a hold up on training, I was posted to Elsham Wolds, which was in Lincolnshire near Barnaby/Scunthorpe, that area, with a very famous squadron, No. 103 Squadron and I was just a gofer, just helping out at the armaments section waiting to come, which I thought I’d become an instrument repairer. However, then I started flying with them because they wanted air testing, to do with, they were testing the aircraft for its airworthiness and I was pinching every few minutes I could to be in the air, and I said to my Warrant Officer, I remember the chap very, very, very well, always with a bicycle this man, pair of bicycle clips cycling round the field after his men, I said ‘how do I become aircrew?’ ‘Well,’ he said ‘that’s simple, you know, go along to the station headquarters, fill in a form’, which I did and oh, it was days, they were obviously short of aircrew at the time and I ended up at the Aircrew Reception Centre at Cardington in Bedfordshire. Had interviews, medicals and so forth and um arithmetic test, English test, that sort of thing, general knowledge and when I came out the chap, there was an old, he must have been about 50/60 years of age which was very old to me at that time in, he’d obviously been in the First World War because he had First World War medals on his chest, and he said ‘you’ve passed as a PNB’. I had no idea what he was talking about so I said, ‘but I don’t understand’, so he said ‘pilot, navigator or bomb aimer’. That’s what PNB — so I said ‘grand, lovely job, when can I go?’ He said ‘oh it’s a few months, could be five or six months’ and I said ‘I want to go now’. He said ‘the only way to go now is to become a rear gunner or a gunner’. I said ‘that’s for me’, and believe it or not ahh Rod, that was the best choice I think I ever made in my life because how, the courage of pilots, navigators, wireless operators, engineers ahh, who couldn’t do anything about an attack, to sit there in an aircraft relying on a chap with four Brownings in the back and a chap in mid upper with four Brownings, I just don’t think I’d have had the nerve to do it. After, so I was sent for air gunnery training, which was at Bishopscourt, Northern Ireland. I can’t tell you, I can’t remember the number of the course, but very early on in the course, they were short of motor transport there, I don’t think we had a dentist very early on. It was building up, yes that sort of thing. There were a few, some WRAF were posted in, they were WAAF at the time, W - double A - F, and there was no transport to get them so we walked, we marched four miles from there to the nearest railway station to carry the WAAFs’ kit bags to their quarters that had been built for them. Of course, we all were tickled pink, young men of 18/19 years of age, we all made dates on the way of course, this was fun. The aircraft they had there were Ansons, so you climbed onto an Anson with a pilot there who’d probably done a tour of operation, I don’t know, I didn’t know too much about the RAF at that time, but the undercarriage had to be wound up by hand, it was not automatic. I think it was five revolutions to an inch or something like that. I know, but he would get you doing this so you sat there winding and towards the end, he would say ‘oh for goodness sake, give it here’, knowing damn well you were on the last four revolutions you see. And that was the undercart up and we flew over the Irish Sea and we met a Manchester aircraft. Manchesters came from the Isle of Man, I’ve forgotten the name of the airfield now, it was on the Isle of Man, it will come to me in a moment, probably after you’ve gone [laughter] but the Manchester would come out towing a drogue, which is a bit of rope with this long bit of ahh, drogue on the back which we were to fire at. I never shot down an aircraft as far as I know, but we were out one day and there was a Manchester in the water with a drogue and we stood by, it was quite thrilling actually to fly around, and they launched an air sea rescue launch from RAF Jurby, or wherever they were stationed in the Isle of Man and picked the crew up, which was, it was quite an exciting thing to see actually. Anyway, finished the course at Northern Ireland at Ardglass and I was posted to Turweston. RP: Oh yes. AS: Which was an operational training unit which came under the Silverstone, which is now a famous race track. It was a satellite of Silverstone. I must tell you while I was on the air gunnery training, I met a chap and we were crewed together as air gunners, a chap called Bob Wilmot, and he was from Hinckley in Leicestershire and he had been in the Air Force quite a time so he had switched from ground crew, I can’t remember what trade he was, but he was, he came from Iceland, from Reykjavik where he was stationed to er, for training. So Bob and I paired off and we went through air gunnery training together, when we got to Turweston, we were collared a billet and we were going to a hangar where we were going to be crewed up. This is where we meet the pilot which we, we were all green, we hadn’t a clue what was going on, but as we wandered towards the hangar, the hangar doors were open and two Canadian officers ran out, a pilot and a navigator, that was Sid Godfrey, pilot and the navigator was called Don Lenny, a Flying Officer, both Canadians, and grabbed us, ‘fly with us’. It appears, we didn’t realise that British air gunners were rather prized, I probably shouldn’t say this but we were. It seems that the name had got around that if you could get yourself a British tail gunner, you had a good chance of surviving [laughter], which was nice to hear. RP: Nice to hear yes. AS: Nice to hear. However, from there we went to the um operational training unit, flying on Wellingtons. RP: So, this is still part of your gunnery training? AS: Still part of the gunnery training, all part of the, except you’d fly as far as Belfast and pretend that Belfast was the target, you know, and err other places, training all the time of course. It was good training for the pilot and the navigator and everybody in the crew. Ah, so that was that bit of training, I’m trying to think — RP: So where, from the operational training unit did you have any further training? AS: Yeah, then we went to the conversion unit, ah which was up in Yorkshire. RP: They sent you to a few places then? AS: Dishforth. RP: Dishforth yes, AS: Dishforth, No 1664 Conversion Unit. RP: So, what were you converting to there then? AS: That was from Wellingtons on to Halifaxes. RP: So, you were nearly at the end of your training? AS: That’s right, yes, towards the end of the training then. From Wellingtons on to Halifaxes at Dishforth and er, which was a satellite of Topcliffe, and err that was very interesting because that was going from Wellingtons, which was a Frazer Nash Turret, rear turret where like you fired your guns, it was like handlebars. Frazer Nash was like driving a motorbike but the Boulton Paul was a single thumb on the — RP: On the button. AS: On the button, you know the turret moved with the control column, you know left, right, up, you know down. RP: Which did you prefer? AS: Hmm? RP: Which did you prefer, the Boulton Paul or the Frazer? AS: Well listen, I think, I felt very happy with the Frazer Nash because I’d got so used to it, but once I’d got used to the Boulton Paul I was, you know. I had a feeling that the Boulton Paul turret was slightly smaller and seemed to be more cramped than the Frazer Nash though someone might correct me. Uhm, so that was at Dishforth and I must tell you a story. We were coming back and the pilot who I trained with, ah, I’ll get to the story later but I never flew with him on operations because on his first flight, all pilots when they were posted to an operational station which was 138 Squadron at Tempsford in Bedfordshire, had to do a second dicky flight, because we weren’t dropping bombs, we were dropping agents and supplies and it was a tricky old business, because he had to drop on three torches and so he had, it was low level flying, coming in at low level and dropping the supplies at about 800ft, and I think if it was a live body to be an agent, it was dropped from 1000ft. But that was what he went on, and he went on the very first flight and they got shot down by a, we found out later it was a Night Fighter that got him. He was the second dicky, he wasn’t flying the aircraft he was there for an experience flight. So him, I understand, I may be wrong but it was only him and the mid upper gunner survived that crash so he was a lucky man. But we didn’t so we were a headless crew, we were. A navigator, a bomb aimer, a wireless operator, gunners with no pilot, so I was asked by the Station Commander would I like to go back on to training again and be re-crewed and would I stay at Tempsford as a spare gunner, that’s a ‘spag’ SPAG ([laughter] because, in case another gunner got toothache or was wounded err, which was fair. So I stayed on the squadron and did 32 operations, I’ve got the logbook to show you Rod, which includes Germany, France, Belgium and um Holland, Norway. RP: These are all special ops? AS: They’re all special ops, dropping to the agents much needed supplies, ammunitions, cameras, food, explosives, whatever they need to carry out their dangerous work. RP: So, so what was, Norway, ah — AS: Norway you see was an occupied country and was very, that was dangerous flying because as you know, it is a very mountainous country and to drop supplies, you can’t drop from 20,000ft, I mean you have to go down lower to drop them and you dropped on torches, torchlight or, even bonfires if it was safe, if they were far enough away and they knew the Germans weren’t near, they would light bonfires to guide us in. RP: So every operation you were on you were more or less liaising with a resistance group in that country. AS: Always a resistance group yes, and all been organised previously by the British Broadcasting Company, you know with clandestine — RP: Cryptic messages. AS: Cryptic messages, music, different tunes being played ah, quite fascinating really. We’d, in fact I was ignorant of a lot of things that were so clever, the British at this, subterfuge, of making sure that the people on the ground got the required stuff to do their damage. RP: Were you ever attacked on any of these missions? AS: No, very, very lucky. Saw aircraft looking for us but because we flew so low, I’d see JU88 which was famous fighter, twin engined German fighter, going the other way, searching for us. They obviously had us on radar or something but missing us. That was quite frightening [laughter], you sat there with bated breath for 30 hours because you’d seen one and you’d think are they coming back? But we obviously, we were very, very, very lucky people. RP: So on a normal trip, say to France it’s, you don’t always fly on through, you sometimes, you return to Tempsford but obviously you had one incident where flew on to North Africa. AS: Yes, that was it. RP: Was that a deliberate fly through there? AS: If it was a long flight, for instance in the South of France, it was for conservation of fuel and so forth, it was better and safer to fly on to North Africa to a place called Blida, RAF Blida and stay the night, refuel the aircraft and then also add ahh, pre-arranged for guns replace, canisters replace for us to do a drop on the way back. It was very, very well thought out, and also we had pigeons, that seems funny— RP: I’ve heard about those. AS: Yes. And when I’ve taught, I’ve taken Pam to the schools, I’ve given talks in schools and the children are always interested when I talk about the pigeons. RP: Yes, a lot of people don’t believe it but I know about them yeah. AS: Yes, pigeons were in a little cardboard, pressed cardboard container with a parachute, that’s a miniature parachute and in the container would be a bottle of water and a packet of seed and also a pencil, a special pencil and paper with a questionnaire which was all events of war, and the commanding officer’s name, all sorts of things, motor transport nearby, airfields, what sort of airfields, you know and these pigeons they had to fill in this bit of paper, the children all burst mad on what we’d found in occupied country, put the paper back in the pigeon’s canister on his leg and release it and back it would fly to Tempsford with some very, very interesting information, you know ahh. I don’t know if it’s true but I understand that the first information that Rommel was dead came back by pigeon. That was the rumour going around at the time. RP: Yes, sometimes they carried them on aircraft to release if you did ditch, didn’t they? AS: Oh yes, we had that as well yes. A cage inside the aircraft in case of a ditching. I think we were the only aircraft that did have pigeons on board for that. Yeah. RP: Because if you had time to put your reference you could be rescued. AS: That’s right, the navigator would put yeah — Now apart from the wireless operator giving away the position of the crash, they’d also have the pigeons with the, as you say, with the reference of the area where the aircraft was going to go down. RP: So, tell us about this incident when you did go down, it must have been — AS: Let’s see, we went to ah North Africa with the idea, we did a successful drop on the way out and stayed the night at North Africa, RAF Blida, with the idea of going back, I can’t remember the target area but we were going back to the South of France near there and drop our supplies and agent, no agent, just supplies this time. However, when we took off, it was getting dark, very nearly dark and all we know was a bang. We were flying along, I didn’t see it but later on I was told like, l can tell you the full story that a JU88 had been seen in the area and they flew, they had a gun which could fire upwards through the top Jaegermeister or something it was called. RP: It come underneath you. AS: Schräge yeah. And this is obviously what happened because we were flying along at dusk and then there was a bang so that was all, and nearby lucky for us there was a hospital ship, an Italian hospital ship with an Italian crew, I understand the Italian Captain called Principessa Giovanni and this, having wounded on board there was a British sergeant medical sergeant. There was no smoking on board and he was, I understand, he was, the story came out he was behind the lifeboat on the deck having a crafty fag [laughter] and he actually saw the incident. RP: Oh right. AS: So — RP: He knew there’s been a crash. AS: He saw, he saw us go down. He saw the flame, and he saw flames and it was still light enough to see what happened, and he had the courage to go to a senior officer ‘an aircraft had just been shot down’ he said because he’d seen the incident. RP: So, they knew you’d crashed, but obviously, when you were ditching you weren’t aware you’d been spotted, so what was it like when you hit the sea? AS: That’s right, so we hit the water not knowing that anyone — that, that’s it. The navigator was in the aircraft with us and we were, you sit at crash position, the pilot said you know ‘get in ditching positions’. There was a main spar runs through the aircraft which with the wings, strengthen the wings and you brace yourself against that. The pilot stays at the control and the flight, and the flight engineer assisting him the rest, cos he’s watching the engines and everything like that in case he requires help. The pilot was a chap called Highwalker, Flight Lieutenant Canadian, already had a Distinguished Flying Cross and he got the Distinguished Service Order for this err, probably got the result for his flying before and this crash because how he controlled that— RP: Once you put it down and not break up. AS: Fantastic, it was like a sycamore leaf, it was completely out of control it had been hit, you know, badly damaged. RP: But normally you would expect it to break up. AS: At the very last moment it flew, super [unclear] but you’re given, they say you’re given extra strength at certain times. RP: Yes. AS: Anyway, he landed but obviously he’d couldn’t land gently, it smashed the front of the aircraft in and water rushed, the salt, the sea came straight away, and the navigator was obviously washed towards my rear turret where I’d climbed out of, and was back in the same position. But it was all, a huge inrush of water. And so I got out, I was lucky, I got out, there was no dinghy, it should come out by an immersion switch but it didn’t, you know the water should get it out, but it didn’t come out. But the bomb aimer, a Canadian Officer, held my, I still had my parachute harness on, and held me. I went back towards the aircraft, I could see the D, it’s illuminated, it’s got a handle just a normal handle to, and a D on it. I could see it so I reached it and I turned it and it was so still by that time, luckily the Mediterranean was not rough at that moment. I could hear the hiss for while I was carrying it over the aircraft, I got a hiss of a dinghy being inflated automatically, and it came out, I had got a frangible chord which holds it and you can cut it when you get in. Unfortunately, in the crash, the frangible chord must have broken, must have snapped because the dinghy was on its way. [laughter]. Luckily being ahh, a Cornish boy and always in the sea swimming, I was a strong swimmer, though fully dressed with flying boots it was quite easy for me to swim and get the dinghy and get it back to the aircraft. Loaded people on it, the pilot had hurt his hands and so forth, you know. We all got on it quite safely, all but the navigator. If I remember correctly, the engineer damaged his hands as well but er, and then we looked towards the aircraft, we were then I suppose say 40 feet away about that from the aircraft I think the dinghy drifted away. All that was left was two fin and rudders from the Halifax together with water and my turret, and two shouts of ‘help’ came but there was nothing we could do then and then he gurgled under the water with the navigator in the turret. RP: So he must have been knocked unconscious and just come round. AS: Yes I think he’d just come round because he did shout ‘help’. And his son has been here to see us, he’s been here to see me and um, I’ll tell you the story about it. Anyway, that was the crash, ah, fortunately the ship, the Principessa, the hospital ship, the sergeant had witnessed this, British sergeant RP: So they were already on their way to you. AS: Otherwise we’d never have, I don’t think, ‘cos the wireless operator whether his message was received we will never know, no. I never saw the Court of Enquiry or formal investigation into the crash, uh but there must have been one of course. However, we were picked up by this ship, given a slug of whisky and looked after and err, the engineer hadn’t come round, he was still, not unconscious, but he’d been very, he’d been knocked about and when he came to, on the ship there were black troops on board, they’d been fighting, I can’t remember the name of them now, it’s amazing, like our Ghurkhas anyway, they were fighting for the Americans and the French. They were French troops anyway and when he came to there were these men dressed in white swats with black faces standing around the engineer and he thought he’d died and gone to hell [laughter]. He did, he told us afterwards. That’s it then. RP: Someone came in to reassure him then? AS: Yeah, well we all came in yeah. RP: So where did the ship dock, where did they take you? AS: They took us to err, out to Oran and at Oran there’s the American hospital Number 6 General, it was called Number 6 the American General Hospital and they um, we was in sodden clothes, my uniform was green, I suppose some dye had come out of the aircraft somewhere from some stuff we were carrying. However, they gave us a dressing, pair of pyjamas, pair of slippers and a nice velvet dressing gown which we wore all the time we were there and err, that’s where we did our recovery and on the bottom of my bed, I felt OK, but the doctor wrote ’shock and exhaustion’ so I must have been you know worse than I thought I was. RP: So how did they get you back to the UK then? AS: Well that was it so there we were in the hospital in Oran and they err, we would be trying to get back again and a Liberator, an RAF Liberator was up in North Africa, must be at Blida or somewhere, came to Oran and picked us up and took us back to the UK and we landed um, in Kent. I’m trying to think of the airfield. RP: Manston? AS: Hmm? RP: Manston? AS: Yeah, that’s it yeah. And err, there, we made our way back you know, we were given warrants we went back to the station as though you know, that was it. RP: It was back to work, no leave. AS: I’d been given a spot of leave and that’s it. ‘Well done mate’, shook your hand — [laughter] RP: And you were back flying then were you? AS: That’s is yeah. That was my thirteenth operation. RP: So you still had another? AS: I did another — RP: Nineteen. AS: I completed thirty-two RP: So you still had another, almost the same to go. AS: Exactly, yeah, yeah. RP: No more incidents after that? I mean that’s enough for anybody. AS: Not of that nature no, no, nothing like that. RP: That is enough for anybody though really. AS: Oh yeah. No, I had a very trouble-free tour, very lucky I had a very trouble-free tour really. RP: So where was your last op then? The last op you did, can you remember the last one? AS: I’ve got the log but I can’t remember where it would be, it might have, I’ve got it in my log with me to show you. RP: OK Bill, you were going to tell us about, you went back to base after the crash and you were straight back to flying, but it’s a different aircraft though, isn’t it? AS: Yeah, they changed the aircraft to the Stirling. Now the Stirling had a, was not really suitable to Bomber Command’s high altitude flying, but the ones we had had been reconditioned and we went over to Northern Ireland to pick them up. As crews we all flew over there, went with the crew and flew them back from Belfast to the UK to Tempsford. I found the Stirling an excellent aircraft as a rear gunner, brilliant rear turret Frazer Nash rear turret, four Bristol engines which gave you great confidence. You could see flames, you sat in the rear turret you saw a little bit of flames, but two engines each side. But for, I had great confidence in the Stirling. I thought they were very well suited to the work that Tempsford did, dropping agents’ supplies. Plenty of room in them, ah they had a nickname in the Air Force, called the Flying Solenoid for some reason, had a lot of electrics in them. RP: Oh right. AS: That’s why but ah, I thought completely reliable and it’s amazing, in all the time I flew, a lot, never had an engine failure with them. What you’d normally get, come back with a wing and a prayer as they say. RP: [unclear] AS: No, no a very solidly built — RP: So when you’re dropping supplies, are you dropping them out of the bomb bay? AS: Yeah, no, the — RP: Or are they going out of the door? AS: They cut a hole in the floor of the aircraft, we called it a Joe Hole because the agents we dropped off were nicknamed Joes. RP: They went through the same hole? AS: The same hole. It was quite a big hole, two flaps, the mid upper gunner had been to Ringway and done a course and become an expert dispatcher going into … to dress people in harnesses for their, with their Mae West and their parachutes, and the mid upper gunner became a dispatcher and he would open up the Joe Hole, throw back the two things, the lights of course would give, the pilot would show where the agents would drop over the dropping zone and err, they would sit on the edge of the Joe Hole and as the, the tap on the shoulder and so they would jump. And as a rear gunner, you would sit in the back and the slipstream takes the body, the jumper and he seems to level out and if it was you Rod, jumping I’d recognise you for a split second with a terrified look on your face [laughter], you know what I mean, and he’d lay on his back it seemed to be, for a split second, I’d know the person who had jumped from the rear turret , yeah. And you’d see the bag, you know because you were— RP: Did you circle round? AS: We’d be circling round, you’d see them going in. RP: But you’ve obviously done the important thing of dropping them in occupied territory. Was there ever a follow up, did you find out what happened to any of them? AS: No. I wish we could have done because it is so, it had been ages as well. They were brought out to the aircraft at the very last moment ahh, they had a farm on the um, it was called Gibraltar Farm, it’s still there at Tempsford, I’ve taken Pam to it, you can go and visit it. There’s photographs there, there’s names, there’s a plaque about the work. RP: So there’s a Veterans’ Association for Tempsford isn’t there? AS: That’s right, yeah and err, it’s quite an interesting place to go to. And they’d be dressed at Gibraltar Farm and then they’d be put into a closed vehicle so the crew wouldn’t see them till the very last moment your doors would open of course, they would climb in, sit down. Not a nice comfy chair for them, just a canvas seat. RP: I’m assuming the crew were briefed at the last moment as to their target then? AS: Oh yeah, we knew the target, we did the target in the afternoon. RP: Oh right. AS: We knew exactly where they were going. We knew um — RP: By that time of course you were restricted to base I assume. AS: Exactly, we couldn’t go out, no phone calls off the base or anything, restricted. You had your, you’d go and have your bacon and egg you know, your meal sort of thing, draw your rations and err, yeah. Get a flask of coffee. RP: Yes. So, Stirlings up until the war ended you were on the Stirling, until your last op? AS: Yeah. RP: So the war ends — AS: It’s funny because people didn’t associate Stirlings with — RP: I must admit I thought it was Halifaxes and Lancasters. AS: Yeah, no and then the Stirling was, that was — RP: But when you’d done your last op, can you remember the day the war ended, where you were? Were you at Tempsford? AS: Yeah, I, no I was on a codes and cipher course when the war, we’d all been, when you’d done a tour you retreaded, you know they’d give you a job. I was given admin and accounts I was trained, I was given, but that codes and cipher is included so I was sent to Yatesbury RP: Oh yes. AS: For the codes and cipher course. That was eight weeks, eleven weeks though I remember. RP: And of course, very modestly, haven’t told us that during this time you were now a commissioned officer. AS: Right. RP: So what rank were you when the war ended? AS: Ahh, a Flight Lieutenant. Yes RP: So you were a Flight Lieutenant at the end of the war. AS: Yes, I was a Flight Lieutenant um, training as a gunnery leader at that time, you know. At Turweston I was a Flight Lieutenant. I was a senior air gunner on the station training chaps which was err — RP: So if the war ends, are you given the option to leave or stay? AS: Yes I stayed on, you know. I’m glad I did because I love the service and I ended up with the rank of Squadron Leader, should have gone higher but [laughter]. RP: They didn’t recognise brilliance when they saw it though, that’s what it was. So, so obviously the war ended and you’re staying in an admin job now then? AS: That’s right, admin and accounts, yeah. RP: Yeah ok. AS: And I was, err, where was my first posting, I’ve forgotten? Anyway, I went to Cyprus, Singapore, Germany. Oh, my first trip was immediately after the war in Germany, Belgium first on this Missing Research and Enquiry Unit. Number twenty — This is where we’re looking for crashed aircraft and bodies, because parents still believed that their boy was walking round lost somewhere. RP: Yes. AS: The finale was, you know they formed this Missing Research and Enquiry Unit. I was at the one in Belgium and we cleared up Belgium and Holland. That was going around to the cemeteries and making and, not exhuming graves but making sure that people were in there and we found lots of crashed aircraft, in fact what we would do, we would go to a, there were twenty-three, I think there were twenty-three chaps in Belgium, Holland and Germany. I had a Land Rover, no I didn’t I had a Jeep. RP: Slight difference I know [laughter] AS: I had a Jeep and err, a pipe to keep my nose warm [laughter] and that was, and err a Wing Commander, commanding officer, Canadian who been an evader himself and err, we just went to a Town Hall, put a notice up, we had an interpreter given to us by the way RP: Yes. AS: And the idea was, that we were coming to that town, could anyone come forward with any news of any crashed aircraft or aircrew? It was amazing the people you found. RP: You’d get a good response from them. AS: Yeah. It was amazing. RP: And this was to verify, so you could then verify to the parents that you’d located their son. AS: That’s right. One of my friends err, we were together, we were working together, and he had a pastor came, he put his notice up and a pastor said ‘A nun, a nun [unclear], a nun came he said. Behind the nunnery there’s an RAF chap because he was shot and put into the ground so they followed that. She, they took my friend by the Austin to the spot, he got some grave diggers, they exhumed the body, it was just under the ground and it was a Flight Lieutenant and he had a hole in the middle of his forehead. RP: They’d just shot him, out of hand. AS: And I didn’t understand, I wasn’t privy to all the facts but the British Army took that case over and they got the killer. RP: Oh good. AS: They, through finding out through, in the pubs and that, who the people who were stationed, Germans in that area, at that time and they got the culprit, so I understand. RP: That must have been a very err, sort of depressing job, AS: Oh yeah. RP: But you must have felt satisfied at the end. AS: Exactly, oh yeah. RP: The satisfaction of actually finding people. AS: Pam loves this story. This Wing Commander aha, a Canadian had a — RP: Please tell us. AS: Churchill accent. You know a Canadian and a Churchill [unclear]. RP: Slight lisp, yeah. AS: I took the me I think. We were stationed at a place called Schloss Schonberg and this castle we were stationed in had lovely steps, and we were billeted there, a whole gang of us. And I’d been out for a whole week living off a, being in cemeteries, finding bodies, listing work, at night you might get a room you know, tucked away in a hotel, pub general pub somewhere. So I came back, obviously, a bit smelly and there they were, my friends having a drink at the bar, lovely little bar we had and the steps going up. So I was taking the mickey out of the commanding officer, I said ‘I think it’s disgusting, young officers drinking at this time of the day’ and they were going like this [laughter]. Too late, I was going up the stairs and the Wing Commander, there he was, he wasn’t a Jack McLean, he got off his chair put his newspaper down so I went to, I had to go to his bedroom. Still as that, he sat on his bed and gave me the biggest bollocking I’ve ever had. Lovely, he could really give one, he ended up as a Minister in the Government. RP: He didn’t see the funny side of it. AS: No, no but he but, but it’s funny, when he left the err, when he left Germany to go back to Canada, as his tour expired, the Adjutant a Welsh feller came to me ‘the CO wants to see you’. I said ‘Christ I’ve done nothing wrong, I’ve been good as gold’. And he, charming, went in, he said ‘Bill cheerio, why don’t you come to Canada, you’re just the sort of chap we could do with‘. So all of that was forgotten, it was all about play you know it was— RP: So having done that, at what point did they decide to the wind the operation up, about finding crashed aircraft, how long did they– AS: Probably when they found, when they must have found them all I suppose RP: And so you came back— AS: As near as dammit. Couldn’t do any more, the graves were all, I can’t remember the timing. RP: But you came back, you came back to the UK then? AS: That’s right, yeah. RP: Where were you then? What did you do then? AS: I’m trying to think. No — That’s when I was in codes and cipher I think, yeah. RP: So— AS: I came back, I was sent to Compton Bassett. RP: Ahh, Compton Bassett. AS: Yeah, Compton Bassett. On a code and cipher course, and err, which you’re mad after six years so I did nine so — [laughter] But funnily enough I quite enjoyed it you know, it was an interesting job. So I did codes and ciphers in Singapore and Gibraltar and it was quite interesting, you get to meet, you throw stones at the CO’s window at 3 o’clock in the morning, always gives you a glass of whisky [laughter]. RP: So how long were you in the RAF then, how long did you stay? As: Thirty-seven years. RP: So that’s a long time. AS: That’s a long time yeah. RP: You stayed on, AS: I stayed on, yeah, yeah. RP: And that was sort of on the admin branch. AS: Yes, I think I finished at St Mawgan as OC Station Services, you know works and bricks working with DoE sort of thing. RP: Yeah, but err, out of those thirty-seven, I’m guessing the first three or four were the most interesting. AS: Yeah, right. RP: That’s that. You were going to err - AS: I was going to tell you the story about York RP: About York. Tell us the story about York Minster then, coming back in the snow. AS: Oh yeah, yes. RP: You were going to tell us the story. AS: Yeah, that’s all, and this pilot he came back, he came back to see me in Cornwall which I was quite thrilled, when you think that err, what he’d been through as a prisoner of war and err, we were walking out in the sunshine at the time, reminiscing and he remembered his old Cornish air gunner. I said he was a Freemason and talking all over Canada, he said I told the story, your ears should have been burning you know. RP: Tell us the story about the church, the York Minster. AS: Ah yes. RP: You were coming back from a training flight I think was it, coming back from a training flight to York Minster when he was telling you about going to church? AS: That’s the one. RP: That’s the one, yes. AS: Just flying in the area of, and we were coming back from the North Sea, and err, very low unfortunately because it started to snow, just climbing over the, coming over York and that, and the wireless operator could actually see people in the cinema queue but as we went over York Minster, which we didn’t realise we were so low, I said ‘guys’ I said, ‘I haven’t been to church in bloody years’, but we could see err yeah. RP: Well I think that that, the thing about your crews at Tempsford, I think there was obviously great camaraderie with all the various people there. AS: Pam likes me to tell the story when, because when you’re in the rear turret you can, in a Frazer Nash, you’d like a motorbike, when the Boulton Paul I’d put a flask of tea, I took a flask with me and it would just fit, there’s a little ledge on the right hand side of the Boulton Paul turret which just takes a flask just nicely so it won’t roll, but unfortunately, we err, I’ve forgotten which country we were over, I think Belgium, I saw a Night Fighter so I threw my guns to the left and I saw him disappear. I went to try to find out where he was, I had my turret and guns going everywhere, I didn’t hear any fire but all of a sudden, I had the most red hot feeling in my stomach. It took me ages to have the courage, I thought, well they tell me you don’t feel when you’ve been hit, it’s just, just get a wound and you know that was it. Hot. So I put my hand and what had happened, my gun, the solenoid underneath the gun had picked the flask up, pierced it and it dropped in my lap. RP: So it was actually hot tea. AS: Hot coffee. RP: Oh hot coffee. AS: Yeah. RP: Oh dear, so that was a relief in one way then. That was definitely a relief. RP: What you haven’t told us but you’ve been very modest about your medals. What medals have you got then, what were you awarded after the Halifax? AS: Ah, I’ve got the Distinguished Flying Medal which was awarded in um err, July 1944 which was the result of the ditching in the — RP: That’s a lovely medal, isn’t it? AS: Yes it is, which I’m very, very proud of. RP: Quite right and I think we needed to mention that, but I think the hot coffee story is a good point to bring our interview to an end I think. Thank you for telling us all those lovely stories. AS: Ah well. RP: It’s been a privilege and pleasure. Thank you very much, thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William James Stoneman Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rod Pickles Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-11-14 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AStonemanWJ161114 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:48:17 audio recording Description An account of the resource William James Stoneman ('Bill') was posted to RAF Elsham Wolds before Aircrew Reception Centre at RAF Cardington. He chose to become a rear gunner as he did not have to wait. Air gunnery training followed at RAF Bishops Court in Northern Ireland on Ansons and Magister aircraft. He was posted to the Operational Training Unit (OTU) at RAF Weston where he crewed up and flew Wellingtons. He then went to the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Dishforth and flew Halifaxes. Bill compares the Frazer Nash turret with the Boulton Paul rear gun turrets. Bill joined 138 Squadron at RAF Tempsford. He carried out 32 operations in Belgium, France, Germany, Holland and Norway. Flying low, they dropped agents and supplies. He describes the clandestine liaison with resistance groups. On long flights to southern France, they would refuel at RAF Blida in North Africa. He also discusses carrying pigeons for intelligence gathering. Bill recounts how their aircraft was shot down on one occasion whilst returning from RAF Blida. On his return, Bill changed to Stirling aircraft which he very much liked. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal in July 1944. Finishing the Second World War as a flight lieutenant, he was sent to RAF Yatesbury working on codes and ciphers. He went to Belgium, Cyprus, Germany and Singapore. He worked at the Missing Research and Enquiry Unit in Belgium and finished at RAF St Mawgan having served for 37 years. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944-07 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Cornwall (County) England--Lincolnshire England--Wiltshire England--Yorkshire Northern Ireland--Down (County) Belgium Cyprus France Germany Netherlands North Africa Norway Singapore Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sally Coulter Vivienne Tincombe Maureen Clarke 138 Squadron 1664 HCU air gunner Air Gunnery School air sea rescue aircrew animal Anson crewing up Distinguished Flying Medal ditching final resting place Heavy Conversion Unit Ju 88 Magister memorial military service conditions RAF Bishops Court RAF Cardington RAF Dishforth RAF Elsham Wolds RAF St Mawgan RAF Tempsford RAF Turweston RAF Yatesbury Resistance Special Operations Executive Stirling training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/656/8929/AWilsonJ161231.mp3 930df0a00d934d17a8714a098fe71eb3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wilson, Joseph J Wilson Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Wilson, J Description An account of the resource Four items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Joseph Wilson (1923 - 2019), 1486434 Royal Air Force), his log book, identity card and a photograph. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 102 and 76 Squadrons before being posted to 624 Special Duties Squadron where he dropped supplies and agents to the resistance in Southern Europe. The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jenny Wilson and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-12-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Flying Officer Joe Wilson at 3.15 in the afternoon on Thursday 29th of December 2016 at his home in Billinge. Joe, can you confirm for me please when and where were you born? JW1: When and where? Oh, I was, I was born in Orrel Road, Orrel, 18.5.23. BW: And how many other family members were there in, in your family? Did you have any brothers and sisters? JW1: Oh yes. I had, I had a brother and sister. BW: And were you the middle child or — JW1: I was the youngest, the youngster [slight laugh]. JW2: You, you had step-sisters and brothers. JW1: But they weren’t — JW2: They were older, weren’t they? JW1: Oh yeah, they weren’t — as you say, step-sisters. They weren’t my — JW2: They weren’t yours but they all lived together. JW1: All lived together, yeah. BW: With me during this interview — JW1: I beg your pardon? BW: With me in this interview is Joe’s daughter Jenny, who will also be, um, prompting further information and assisting Joe with, with some of the answers just to help his recall of memory. So what was your early life like Joe, growing up round here? JW1: What was? JW2: What was your early life like? How would you describe it, growing up round here? Was it a normal happy childhood or — JW1: You mean, as a civilian you mean. BW: yes. JW1: I had a very, very — I was getting five bob a week as a — JW2: As a child? JW1: As a child, yeah. JW2: As a child — is it OK for me to — as a child you, um, your father was a miner. JW1: Pit. Yeah. JW2: And your mother — JW1: A school teacher. JW2: Was a school teacher. JW1: Yeah. JW2: And your mother married her sister’s widower. JW1: My mother married — JW2: Your mother married your sister’s, your, sorry, her sister’s widower. JW1: Who was that? JW2: So, um, that was Nellie died and William married Agnes, your mother, and then had three more children and you lived in a semi-detached house, 176 — JW1: Orrel Road. JW2: Orrel Road. That was when you were five. Before that you’d lived in a, in a terraced house. So when you were five you lived in 176 where you stayed for quite a long time. JW1: That’s OK. JW2: That’s right, yeah. But you had a happy child — would you say you had a happy childhood? JW1: [slight laugh] Not really. JW2: No? JW1: No. BW: Were your parents strict Joe? JW1: I beg your pardon? BW: Were your mum and dad strict with you? JW1: Not really. My father worked in the pits, down the pits, five shillings a week and my mother was a school teacher, wasn’t she? JW2: Yes. BW: And where did you go to your school yourself? Do you remember? JW1: Nearby, yeah. It was a Catholic School, St James’s, Orrel, yeah. BW: And what did you like learning there? Were you there until age fourteen or did you leave? Was it a primary school and you left to go to another school or what? JW1: I was, I was there most of the time I suppose, yeah. Not altogether. JW2: Do you recall that you, er, left — when you left St James’s do you remember which school you went to then? JW1: After St James’s. You mentioned the name [unclear]. JW2: I think there was three children from St James’s from your year that went to West Park Grammar School. JW1: Grammar School, St Helens, yeah. JW2: And one of them was John Orell, who was your friend from Rock House in Upholland, and the other was Brenda Green. JW1: Brenda Green. JW2: And John Orell also went into the RAF during the war. JW1: Was he lost in the war? JW2: He was. You told me that the, um, time you had at the grammar school was limited because a lot of your teachers were conscripted. Would you like to say something about that? JW1: Conscripted? What do you mean by that? JW2: They went into the war. They, they had to sign up for the war when you were at West Park Grammar. JW1: Oh yeah, yeah. JW2: You told me that you wanted to leave school because you didn’t like art and you had to do art and lost some of your favourite subjects. JW1: That’s true. BW: What didn’t you like about art Joe? JW1: I couldn’t draw. JW2: Didn’t like it. BW: Didn’t like it. What were your favourite subjects then? JW1: Mathematics, I suppose. My mother was a school teacher. JW2: And her nickname was? JW1: Eh? JW2: What was her nickname? JW1: I don’t know. JW2: Mrs Metric. JW1: Was it? I’d forgotten. JW2: And she was very literary, as you are, and you loved poetry. JW1: Oh yeah. Loved poetry. Yeah. BW: Do you recall what were you doing when war was declared? Were you at home that day? JW1: Well, I was at school that day wasn’t I when war was declared? JW2: I don’t know. JW1: 1939. Born ’23. I was probably in the top class, sixth form, er, sixth form. I was — BW: This is Brian Wright interviewing Flying Officer Joe Wilson on the afternoon of Thursday 29th of December 2016 at his home in Billinge, Lancashire. With me is his daughter Jenny Wilson who will also be adding information, prompting and asking questions of Joe to help clarify some of the information. So, we were just talking before, in the first part of the interview Joe, about you being a trainee pharmacist and you’d heard that war had been declared and you decided to join the RAF and there were two reasons. One of which was pay and the other of which you thought was glamour. Is that right? JW1: Probably. BW: And you thought the uniform would help you attract more girls? JW: Yeah. BW: I believe you wanted to train as a pilot? JW: Yeah. I was, I was in a reserved occupation there but yeah, pilot only, yeah. In fact I wasn’t allowed to — because I got, I got [unclear] I wasn’t allowed to apply for anything else. Pilot or observer, they were both the same, er, price, wage, same wage. BW: And it was more money than what you were on as a pharmacist? JW1: As a pharmacist. It was do you mean fully trained? BW: Yeah. JW1: I was about, I was getting about two pounds a week then but, er, I worked till half past seven through the week and, er, 9 o’clock Saturday night. That was what I should have done but I, I always had plenty of — what do you call them? What do you call them where they — JW2: I’m not sure. Oh, they had a lot of outlets? JW1: The Air Force. JW2: Oh, the Air Force. I’m not sure. Barracks? JW1: Eh? JW2: The barracks. JW1: Before I joined — I’ve forgotten. I was, I know I was a, I was a, so they say a laughable airmen [?] really. BW: Where did you sign on or sign up? Did you sign you in Wigan? Was the nearest recruiting office in Wigan? JW1: Yeah, oh yeah. BW: And where do you go from there? Do you remember where did they send you for training? JW1: It, it was overseas but I can’t remember where? JW2: Initially, I don’t think it was overseas. I think you started your training in this country. JW1: I probably started, yeah, but I didn’t finish. BW: Did you actually get on to do pilot training in the first stage or were you drafted to be an observer instead? JW1: Well, I was, I had, um, I wasn’t considered good enough to be a pilot really. BW: Did you actually get to learn to fly a plane at any stage or were you just told that at the beginning? JW1: No, I never saw, never saw an aeroplane in those days. JW2: He did [emphasis] get to fly. BW: I think you said you flew a Tiger Moth, didn’t you? JW1: Oh, well yeah. Yes. What do they call it when you do a couple of hours just to see whether you were going to be air sick or, you know, not suitable, really. That was the idea. It wasn’t, it wasn’t to teach you anything really. [JW2 talking quietly in the background] BW: So, you started on a flying course in this country doing a couple of trips on a Tiger Moth and then you were told you weren’t suitable to be a pilot. Is that right? JW1: Yeah. BW: And from there you went on to train as a bomb aimer instead. Is that correct or did you go into air gunnery? JW1: No. I wanted to be a — no I wasn’t a gunner because the pay was terrible. It was terrible as a pilot but it was better than an air gunner’s pay. JW2: Joe, your grandson recalls you saying that you learned, you were learning how to fly in Hamptons and Wellingtons? JW1: Hampdens. JW2: Hampdens, sorry. And Wellingtons. Is that correct? JW1: Yeah. I know I went solo as, as, er, training to be a pilot when I was about, well I’d only be eighteen, that’s all. BW: You were flying solo? JW1: I was, I did, to be in a flying job really. I was but I only did a very, very short time. BW: What do you recall about your training to be a bomb aimer? JW1: I didn’t like it [slight laugh]. I didn’t like joining it but after a while it became a better, better paid job, slightly paid better, but that was about all really. BW: And I believe you went up to an Operational Training Unit at Lossiemouth, number 20 OTU? JW1: Number 20. Yeah. BW: Would that have been 1942? JW1: Probably. Yeah. ’42. I was born in ‘23. I was nineteen then. BW: What do you recall of your time up in Scotland? Anything? JW1: Well, I had relatives close by. My wife was a Scot, eventually. JW2: Event— but you hadn’t met her then. JW1: No. I hadn’t. JW2: You hadn’t met her then. Later on you had relatives in Scotland but when you were nineteen I don’t think you had relatives in Scotland. JW1: I didn’t like it then [slight laugh]. I’m surprised anybody cares these days about it. BW: From then on I believe you went to a Heavy Conversion Unit at Pocklington, 1652 HCU is that right? JW1: Pocklington. Yeah. BW: And do you recall the people you met there? The crew you met there? JW1: I don’t recall it but some— somebody, one of them was here and mentioned it to me to bring it back to me, I suppose. That’s all. Five bob a week wasn’t much working about fifty hours or more. That was all I got. Five shillings. BW: Your log book shows that you were training on Wellingtons and your pilot was Sergeant Griffiths. JW1: Yeah. BW: What do you remember about Griffiths? JW1: Nothing really but if, if somebody mentions something it would bring it back to me. He was a Scot, I know that. I don’t remember. I don’t remember. BW: You did a lot of cross country training and some of it was at night, flying Wellingtons. JW1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. BW: And you’re up at the front in the nose. JW1: Yeah. BW: What, what was like that? JW1: Bloody cold. It was — we got all the breezes there. It was considered, it was quite laughable to everybody that I was a pil— I was going in for a pilot, yeah. I’m trying to think what we called it. Nobody has ever talked about it since then so I don’t remember. BW: So, from your log book you left training on the Wellington on the 20th of September 1942, having done just under twenty-three hours day flying and thirty-one, sorry, forty-seven hours night flying? JW1: How many years, forty-seven? BW: Forty-seven hours, forty-seven hours. You then joined the conversion unit early in 1943 and you learned to fly Halifaxes. And your pilot on the Halifax was a Sergeant Griffiths. Do you remember the names of the other crewmen at all? JW1: Not off-hand, no, but if anybody mentions them it would bring it back to me. JW2: Can you remember anything about somebody called Marsh, Wilf Marsh? JW1: Wilf Marsh. He was an observer. He wasn’t very athletic really. He was quite a fat lad. JW2: He was married wasn’t he? JW1: Oh yeah. JW2: Was he the only married one on your crew? JW1: As far as I recollect, yeah. JW2: Right. BW: There was another crewman, Flight Engineer Charles Walker? JW1: I don’t remember that. BW: No. Navigator, er, Anthony Holmes, or Tony Holmes. JW1: Do you know, I don’t remember that even. BW: No [clears throat]. JW1: I don’t know why they are interested. JW2: It is interesting dad. BW: It looks like your regular aircraft was code letter P. Do you have any recollections of P? Did you have a nickname for the aircraft at all? Was it — JW1: I don’t recollect P. I’ve forgotten what you were — Other: Is he talking about the nickname for the aircraft? JW2: Yes. Other: It was something ghost. Something ghost related. JW1: What’s that? JW2: Can — did you call the Halifax — did you have a name for, a nickname for your aircraft? Your grandson seems to remember that it was something related to ghosts. JW1: I don’t remember. JW2: You can’t remember. JW1: I don’t remember. BW: So, you haven’t done many trips. You’ve done about nine or ten trips maybe, in the early part 1943, most of them in March. Do you remember where you were flying to, what your targets were, in March ‘43? Were you flying to the Ruhr, Ruhr valley? JW1: I can’t [clears throat] recollect them but if someone jogged my memory and told me, gave me a name, I might. JW2: Do you recall that you did — you got some time off when you did a reconnaissance trip. Can you remember that? JW1: I got what? JW2: You took some very good photographs of a target or your plane did and, um, they were so helpful that they gave you some time off. Can you recall that? JW1: No. JW2: Well, you told me it was an armaments factory at Essen? JW1: Essetene [?] JW2: No Essen. JW1: Oh, Essen. Oh yeah. JW2: And you told me they were so pleased with the helpful photographs for target information that they gave you some days off. JW1: I can’t remember. JW2: You can’t remember that, no, no. It might have been Krupps. JW1: Krupps. JW2: Might have been Krupps. Does that sound — JW1: I think we lost, if I remember rightly, fifty-five one night, from, mostly from — JW2: Bombing. JW1: Yeah. BW: There are some details, some brief details here. Your second operation, in March 1943, was gardening. JW1: Was what? BW: Gardening. Which means mine laying. JW1: Oh yeah, gardening, yeah. BW: Do you remember anything about dropping mines in the water? JW1: No. It was cushy but no. I mean, we were not didn’t go on trips anything like as dangerous as that was. They, they were all mine laying operations, just round, round the drome, that’s all. BW: And then your third op at night was to Essen, followed by three days later Nuremberg. JW1: We lost about fifty aeroplanes. BW: On the Essen raid? JW1: Yeah. BW: And then you went a few days later to Nuremberg. JW1: Oh yeah. That was a long one. BW: That’s deep in Germany. And then the night after that you went to Munich which is in the south of Germany. JW1: I remember the name but I don’t remember anything about it really. BW: You then had one raid at Stuttgart, followed in April by another trip to Essen and this is, I believe, is interesting because your comment in your log book says you were coned for eleven minutes. You were in the searchlights for eleven minutes. Do you remember that? JW1: No. BW: And you got back to base and you had to go and see the CO, the station commander, following that and he took you up for a flight. His name was Gus Walker. JW1: Oh, ay. I don’t remember. I remember the name, that’s all. Yeah. BW: I believe what happened, you were lucky to survive the raid over Essen, being in the path of the searchlights for so long. JW1: Lost fifty, fifty planes. JW2: But then when you got back the station commander took you and the rest of the crew up for a flight to show you how to, to show your pilot Griffiths how to take evasive action. JW1: Oh yeah. I don’t, don’t remember anything about that either. JW2: I think, I remember you saying that, um, you weren’t sure — you wanted to call him, ‘Sir,’ and he said, ‘Call me Gus.’ Can you remember that? JW1: Who, who was that, Gus? Who was it? JW2: Who do you think it was? JW1: I don’t know. JW2: Gus Walker. JW1: Oh yeah. Little fella. BW: Air Commodore with one arm. JW1: Was it? Oh yeah. He was quite well famous then, really. Gus Walker. JW2: He showed you how to do evasive action. JW1: Yeah. Throwing the plane about, yeah. JW2: You told me that you that you’d waggled your plane before you learned how to do evasive action. JW1: Yes. I did that. That were evading. BW: Just dipping the wings. JW1: Yeah. Yeah. Why do they want to know all— JW2: Can I — I think that it’s something that would be quite interesting for — you were doing your bombing trips and you, you had a strategy that you think helped you, your crew to survive. Can you remember what your strategy was because I think Brian would be interested? JW1: Just dropping markers, you know, that’s all really. We, we didn’t bomb anything then, we just gave the impression that we were going to go that way and they all turned and went that way and we went the other. JW2: You told me — is it OK to — you told me that when you were in the briefings you always took a great interest in why they would navigate a particular way and you asked a lot of questions so sometimes you would say so why, why would we take that route and not this route and you seemed to be asking pertinent questions about the route. JW1: Oh yeah. JW2: You did use the stars. You said that you used the stars and sextants to work out where you were and you felt your mathematics helped with the navigating because your role was a navigating as well, wasn’t it? JW1: Yeah. JW2: But you told me as well that your aim as soon as you knew where you had to go to was to get there as quickly and efficiently as you could. So I don’t think that you always went with the column when you flew with your crew. Can you remember? JW1: Well, I only remember it as much as you’re, you’re talking about now but — JW2: Tell me what you remember about not flying with the column. JW1: Well nothing really accept — JW2: That’s a shame. JW1: Where was it? Where was that? JW2: You told me that you had that as a strategy that you would, you didn’t fly with the column. JW1: Oh yeah. JW2: And that it was such large numbers that did happen, that people would go astray and then return to the column further on. You told me that on occasion you would still be circling the target when the Pathfinders arrived so by the time the target was marked — do you remember what would happen? What you would do? JW1: No. Go on. JW2: You told me that you would bomb it and you would be on your way back when the rest of the column was arriving. JW1: Yeah. I [clears throat ] I wasn’t — I hadn’t been in the Air Force but I knew more about navigation and, you know, the work of the pilot or whatever, flying, in those days. Yeah. JW2: There was a question about why you were chosen to do — work with 624 because 624 was special ops and the dangers were very different. You could fly into a mountain if you did not know where you were going so there was a question about whether you were chosen for the special ops work because your navigation was so good. JW1: I think that’s probably true. JW2: Because you tended to reach your target and come back before the others. JW1: But I was a bomb aimer, not navigator. Bomb aimer. JW2: No you weren’t but you told me you that helped with the navigating. JW1: Oh probably. JW2: So you were the bomb aimer, yeah. And you felt that your matriculation helped you with the navigation. JW1: Oh yeah. I just got — JW2: Was the observer not bomb aimer and navigator. BW: Observer was a generic name. The trades tended to be, um, how can I say? Co— combined, in that you could be called a — it dates back to the First World War when the pilot was also listed as an observer but then the trades began to separate and some of them retained the old title of observer as well but, strictly speaking there would be, in the Halifax, there would be the pilot, navigator, wireless operator, um, bomb aimer and three gunners, front, back and mid upper so — JW2: Did I speak too much then? Was that too — BW: No, that’s alright. That’s alright. [clears throat] I believe when you were flying on operations before you went to, um, the briefings that you would take communion as well as a Catholic? JW1: Oh yeah. BW: So did you attend services every time or just occasionally? JW1: Well, all the time then, yeah. BW: And do you feel your faith gave you comfort or, um, support? JW1: I think so, yeah, yeah. Support, yeah. BW: Did the other crew members go with you or not? JW1: No, they didn’t. They were — I was the only Catholic there. I don’t know what you’d call them. BW: But they I believe also felt reassured when you — JW1: They what? BW: They felt reassured when you’d been you to the service and had communion as well. Is that right? JW1: Say that again. They felt what? BW: They felt reassured that you’d had communion before you went flying. JW1: Oh they liked that, yeah, yeah, yeah. BW: Did that make them feel they feel like they had God on their side? JW1: They thought it was a safety movement really. BW: So you was bit of a talisman for them. You were a bit of good luck charm. JW1: Very likely, very likely, very much likely because I was quite young then. In 1940 how old would I be? Twenty-three? Born in ‘23 to ’40. Oh, phew — BW: Seventeen. JW1: Seventeen would it be? BW: But you were slightly older than that. You were nineteen and twenty when you were on these operations. JW1: On ops, yeah. BW: Did the rest of the crew have good luck charms or mascots? JW1: I don’t know. I’ve forgotten. BW: No? But with that and your skill as a bomb aimer/ navigator they must have felt they were going to come back every time with you on board. JW1: Oh yeah. It was, it was the relationship with the pilot and the bomb aimer and the navigator in between, yeah. BW: And when you were over the target didn’t you have control of the aircraft? JW1: Oh, I sat next to the pilot to help him with it. He sometimes he’d take so much evasive action he, he would be out of action, you know. He’d lose control of it really. BW: And were there any instances over the target when you had to take control if he lost it? JW1: Well, no. I was alongside, alongside the side of the pilot. I’m trying to think now. We were the first to bomb there usually, you know, because I was — well I’d been in the sixth form at the grammar control, you know, as a mathematician so what they thought was difficult wasn’t to me. BW: You obviously have a logical or engineering type, mathematical type thinking pattern or brain, don’t you? You were a, um, pharmacist before the war but then you had this mathematical/ logical skill to see them accurately and quickly to the target and come back. And what was it like for you over the target being in the front, very front of the Halifax? Can you remember what you would do? JW1: Well, not really but bomb aimer, navigator or observer was two people. BW: Did you feel you worked well as a team then? JW1: Sorry? BW: Did you feel you worked well as a team? JW: I think so, yeah. I knew more mathematics than any one of them in the crew, even the pilot ‘cause I’d been in the sixth form at the grammar school. BW: You had to lie prone in the front of the aircraft, looking through the nose, looking through the glass canopy down at the target and tell the pilot to stay on course or to manoeuvre so that you could drop the bombs accurately. You also had to keep the aircraft on course for another thirty seconds so a photograph could be taken, didn’t you? JW1: Yeah. Yes. BW: And did you take the photograph? JW1: Pardon? BW: Did you take the photograph? JW1: Well, I told them when they should be, er, marking the, you know, the ground, what you call it? Phenomenon, ground — I don’t know what you call it really but they weren’t con— weren’t considered worth talking about, um, bomb aimers, you know — they thought we knew nothing about navigation and flying, flying an aircraft. BW: And do you recall what you might have seen on the ground below you when you were over the target? Could you see searchlights and fires? JW1: Oh, searchlights, yeah, yeah. They would very often have, where the target was, um, stations nearby where they could light the, you know, they could light the searchlights in the hopes that anybody up, up above would think they were the target. I weren’t. I didn’t. I knew more navigation than the navigation officer because I’d got through to sixth form in grammar school in mathematics. BW: But you could tell the difference between decoy fires, which is what you’re talking about, and the actual target you were aiming for. JW1: Yes. The fires and the decoy would still be there after we’d done about half a dozen or more of them trips because it would still be there lit but, er, I don’t think any of the others knew anything like as much navigating as I did you know. They, they just obeyed, obeyed the lights really. BW: Do you recall the different colours of searchlights that you would see over the target? JW1: No. No recollection, no. BW: There was one, called a master beam, which was a blue beam and it was radar controlled so if it locked onto an aircraft all the other yellow or white lights would, would lock on, would switch over and lock onto it. JW1: Yes. That’s true, yeah. BW: Did it happen to you at all? JW1: Sorry? BW: Did it happen to you and your crew at all? JW1: I don’t remember really. BW: You talked of a raid on Essen when there was over fifty aircraft were lost. Did you see any of the other aircraft being shot down? JW1: Yes. All the time. All the time but, er, we made a good partnership, the pilot and observer and myself and we used to go higher up than they did so really the anti-aircraft shots were at a lower level really. BW: So you flew above the level of the flak. That’s what you’re saying. You flew above the range of the guns. JW1: Did I say that? I don’t remember that. BW: Well you flew, you say that you flew higher than the rest of the aircraft presumably because you were then higher from, above the guns. JW1: So we could dive down and allude, well, the defenders, you know, down below, really. Yeah. BW: And when you were briefed about the target did you question the height and the positon at which you were going to bomb these targets? Did you think you could do better? JW1: Did I question what? BW: Did you question what they were briefing you about when they, when they told you where you should bomb the target, what direction you should come from and what height? Did you try and do it differently? JW1: Did I what? BW: Did you try and do it differently? JW1: I forget really. We were a lone aircraft. One, you know, we — and all the rest of the bombers went on the official target I suppose but I didn’t. BW: And what made you do that? Why did you decide to do that? JW1: Well, I’d been long before I joined the Air Force we studied the tactics, you know, we knew what was expected of us really, I suppose, so very often I could go in and out of the target and be on my way back from the target and not have any anti-aircraft anywhere near us, you know. BW: So your aircraft never got hit? JW1: Never got hit? I’d forgotten about that really. JW2: You did say, you did say that you got shrapnel in your face. JW1: I did yeah. Little sparks, yeah, but I could have been on my way, not at the target but defence, on the way to the target. I could have been miles away. BW: Do you recall when that happened? JW1: No. BW: But it wasn’t serious enough for you warrant you spending time in hospital? JW1: Well, I didn’t tell them I was hit. I didn’t lead the life that was expected of me from the rest. I was keeping clear of the rest of the bombing — what did we call the list of, tier? JW2: The column yeah. JW1: Did we call it a tier? BW: I don’t know. JW1: T I E R. BW: So while everyone else is flying the official route, while everyone is flying the official route and doing what they were told presumably you’ve given the instruction to the pilot as where to go and what to do, to stay out of the away from the main force? JW1: Tell the pilot to stay away from — oh the pilot of our aircraft you mean? Oh yeah. I was in and out of the target before the rest of them had started bombing really, very often. BW: Even before the Pathfinders arrived. JW1: Yeah, yeah. It was handy being a, a Pathfinder because we got extra defence, if you like, and we could bomb the target and then go and mark nearby and, you know and a lot of them would bomb where we dropped these markers, really. JW2: We need to clarify this but you told me that you had advised that it would be a good idea to drop false markers. JW1: Oh, we did that. Yeah. JW2: Who did that? Did you do that as, first of all, you requested that, that as a strategy? You put it forward? JW1: Oh yeah. JW2: And what happened then? JW1: Well it meant there were fewer bombers going to the target, fewer who should have been on the target, dropping bombs nearby and they were glad of it because it kept them out of serious anti-aircraft fire. I’m surprised they’re interested in this so many years after [slight laugh]. BW: That, that was about your time on 102 Squadron and you then moved to number 76 Squadron at Linton on Ouse and according to your log book you changed pilot. You then had Sergeant Povey. JW1: Yes. Les, Les Povey. BW: Les Povey. And your original crew at 102 Squadron apparently were shot down and killed after you left. JW1: Shot down what? BW: They were shot down, they were brought down and killed on a mission, weren’t they? JW1: Were they killed? Yeah. JW2: You were supposed to go on that trip and we, we — JW1: Which trip? JW2: It was a, a raid on an armaments factory in Stettin and it was a birthday present for Hitler. JW1: For whom? JW2: For Hitler. It was on the 20th of April 1943 and you were supposed to go on that trip but you had cold sores on your face and couldn’t wear your oxygen mask. JW1: No. I wasn’t allowed to go. JW2: You were not allowed to go but you did go to the briefing. JW1: Oh yeah. JW2: And someone else went to that briefing as well. We met him later. Tom Wingham wrote about it in a book called, um, “Halifax Down” and he said that people were very anxious about the trip because it was a full moon and they were advised to go high over the Channel and low over Denmark to evade anti-aircraft. So we, we read about that afterwards. So your crew were lost. You waited for them to come back. You waited on the runway for them to come back. JW1: And why wasn’t allowed? Tell me again why wasn’t allowed to go with them? JW2: You had cold sores on your face and you couldn’t wear your oxygen mask. Can you remember waiting for them? JW1: It’s coming, coming back to me yeah. Just a very slight recollection that’s all. JW2: You told me that beyond a certain time you knew that — JW1: They couldn’t get back, yeah. JW2: That they were either going to be prisoners of war or the plane had come down or there was a vague hope that they’d landed somewhere else in the country but you waited. JW1: That’s true yeah. JW2: Can you remember what happened when you saw your name with another crew after you lost your own crew? JW1: It was the pilot that was — JW2: No. After you lost your crew and you saw your name was put on a board with another crew ready to go off again. Do you recall what you did? JW1: No. JW2: You put it in your back pocket. You put your name off the crew list and in your back pocket and then what did you do? JW1: I don’t know. JW2: You went home. JW1: Did I? JW2: And when you walked down the front path your mother had just received a telegram saying you were missing in action. JW1: In action, yeah. They thought I’d gone with the crew, yeah. JW2: This was the same period of time that someone at The Stag asked if you were dodging the column. JW1: And he was chucked out the pub. JW2: He was because your father and the landlord knew why you were home. You were absent without leave because you’d lost your crew. JW1: Yeah. JW2: Can you remember seeing your crew’s families, going to see the crew members’ families? JW1: No, I can’t remember it. JW2: I think you wanted to tell them what had happened because you knew they wouldn’t learn for a long time. JW1: I can’t remember. BW: If I read you the names of the crew that were lost would that help? JW1: Go on. BW: Your pilot was Wilfred Ambrose Griffiths, the second pilot on that raid was Thomas Samuel Eric Bennett, a New Zealander. JW1: A what? BW: A New Zealander. He was from New Zealand. JW1: Oh yeah. BW: The flight engineer was James Thomas Smith. JW1: I don’t remember any of them really. BW: There was Wilfred Charles Marsh. JW2: Wilf Marsh. JW1: Wilf Marsh, yeah. I do remember him. I do remember. JW2: How do you remember him? JW1: I remember Wilf Marsh but I need some, for somebody to remind me what — BW: He was one of the oldest of the crew. JW1: Oh yeah. BW: He was thirty-one. JW1: Thirty-one? BW: The same age as, er, Tom Bennett. The other observer on the crew list was James Campbell, James Kenneth Campbell. You knew him as Ken. JW2: Ken Campbell. What do you remember about him? JW1: Nothing. BW: The — you mentioned this guy before, the wireless op, the wop, AG, Sergeant Arnie Jenkinson. JW2: Jinxy [?]. BW: Arnie Jenkinson. JW1: Yeah. BW: And the two gunners were Alex Cuthbert Weir. He was Canadian. Do you know if he was the mid-upper or the — JW1: Pardon? BW: Was he the mid-upper gunner or the rear gunner? The Canadian? JW1: I forget. BW: And the last one was Sergeant Bertram Charles John White. JW1: John what? JW2: White. JW1: I don’t remember. JW2: Can I try and jog your memory about Arnie Jenkins? JW1: Son. JW2: Son, yeah. You said that his mother had a haberdashery shop, 360 Ashton New Road. JW1: Yeah. JW2: Do you remember? JW1: It’s coming back to me when you mention it. JW2: What about your Magdalene? Your Magdalene used to make clothes and she knew that family didn’t she? JW1: I’ve forgotten. JW2: Or she met them through you, I don’t know. BW: Well, I had so many that I had to recall and the crews, but she would, I would expect this one to remember, you know, the one you — that parents, do remember, yeah. JW2: Ken Campbell was from Widnes. JW1: Was he? JW2: Yeah. JW1: I went there didn’t I? JW2: I think you went to — JW1: And they didn’t want to know me. JW2: You went to 360 Ashton New Road but that was Arnie Jenkins’ house. JW1: Jenkinson. JW2: Jenkinson, yes, sorry. But he was an only child and it’s a shame you didn’t go back. JW1: Was he lost? JW1: You, you told me his mother couldn’t speak to you. She was so upset and she had to hurry off the doorstep and when you got muddled up in your older age and you thought it was because you’d replaced, they’d replaced you but Arnie Jenkinson wasn’t replaced, wasn’t the replacement for you. Ken Campbell was and he was from Widnes. JW2: I’ve forgotten. JW1: I think it would be hard for anybody to see a familiar RAF uniform on the doorstep and know you weren’t going to see your son coming back. JW1: Yeah. I can understand that. BW: So, you went drinking in the local pub when you were at home called The Stag? JW1: Yes. They said I was dodging the column, the other people, yeah, so I left and didn’t go back there. BW: And was your dad a regular in the pub as well? JW1: He was but he wasn’t — he worked down the pit. He wasn’t a member of the crew really. JW2: Was he proud of you? JW1: Eh? JW2: When you came home in your uniform was he proud of you? JW1: Oh yeah, yeah. BW: Did your family ever worry about you when you were on the raids? JW1: Well, they wouldn’t acknowledge that they were bothered, you know, but they were. BW: And you used to cycle home to Wigan from Pocklington. JW1: I’ve forgotten. BW: Did your family make a fuss of you when you went home each time? JW1: Well there was only my parents really there. The rest were based either in the Army or the Air Force. I don’t know where they’d be. BW: So, you being the youngest, when you came home you were spoiled by mum and dad were you a bit. JW1: A bit yes. BW: Did your dad take you out drinking? JW1: Did what? BW: Did your dad take you out drinking or not? JW1: He did after a while but he, you know, he didn’t like me being in the pub really. JW2: You told me that he used to ask you to put your uniform on. JW1: Yeah, I know he liked it. You got special treatment in the pub even if they didn’t know you personally, you know. BW: Did people buy you drinks when you went in the pub with your uniform on? JW1: Phew. Not really, er, occasionally one might but, um, it was, er, it was — JW2: What can you say about the bottles of whisky that you used to bring home? JW1: I don’t know. I’ve forgotten. JW1: You told me that you were given bottles of whisky and you used to bring them home in a kit bag and give them to your dad. JW1: Where did I get the whisky from? JW2: I don’t know. I don’t know. JW1: I’ve forgotten myself. JW2: From Pocklington somewhere. BW: You were based at Yorkshire with 102 Squadron at the time the dams’ raid took place. JW1: A what? BW: The time the dam busters’ raid took place. JW1: Oh yeah. BW: Were you feted at all because you were part of bomber crews? JW1: Was I what? BW: Were you feted at all? Did people make a fuss of you when you went home at that time, simply because you were in bomber command? JW1: Oh yeah. BW: And did the uniform pay off? Did you attract many girls? JW1: No. I had a girlfriend of my own, Cathleen McGraw. JW2: I’ve been told that your half brothers and sisters had children who used to dote on you. So they would be your nieces and they used to dote on you and there was photographs hanging up in your brothers and sisters houses of you in your uniform. They all recall a particular photograph of you in your uniform. JW1: I can’t remember. JW2: But I was also told that you wore leathers like Marlon Brando and you had a motorbike. Can you remember having a motorbike? JW2: Did I have a motorbike? JW2: Did you have a motorbike then? JW1: I had a motorbike once upon a time but it was only for a few days and then — JW2: Oh right. OK. JW1: I got a little aeroplane [slight laugh]. I was lucky to survive really. BW: And you had a few months flying with 76 Squadron at Linton and then Holme on Spalding. JW1: Holme on Spalding where? BW: Do you remember much about that base? JW1: Pardon? BW: Do you remember much about that base? JW1: Not really. BW: There were some accidents, um, at Pocklington and at Holme on Spalding by Halifax crews coming back that crashed. Did you see any or hear of any crashes? JW1: No, I didn’t realise that. We were usually the first back because I, I’d studied navigation and mathematics at the grammar school, you know. I knew more about it than the navigation people on the squadron. BW: From your log book on the 10th of August 1943 you started flying with 138 Squadron at Tempsford. Now that’s down south in Sussex and it was a special duties squadron. Did you volunteer for special duties? JW1: No but I was — but they thought I was good enough for it I suppose. BW: So, somebody tapped you on the shoulder and said you’re going down south? JW1: Yeah. Mind you, it wasn’t as a hazardous a place as the squadron, going from the squadron, you know, up north. The German fighters would be patrolling along the coastline waiting for them to go. BW: Waiting for you to go out? JW1: Yeah. BW: And did they patrol waiting for you to come back as well? JW1: They would be, yeah, but we were, didn’t come back as a — BW: A squadron. JW1: Yeah. We came back individually all over the place. BW: Did you see any action with night fighters or — JW1: Oh yes. We saw them. We saw planes going down sometimes but my pilot, the second pilot I had, could get higher up than they, they were. JW2: Can you, can you recall why Les Povey was such a good pilot? JW1: No. JW2: Because he’d been a gold prospecting pilot before the war, in Africa. JW1: Was he? I’ve forgotten. JW2: That’s what you told me. He was a gold prospecting pilot so he was a very experienced pilot before he joined up. JW1: I’d forgotten that. JW2: And he was older as well. JW1: He was almost forty then. JW2: And he looked like Errol Flynn. BW: And you moved with him down to Tempsford. JW1: Yes. BW: So what happened to the rest of the crew? Did they just keep you and Les together? JW1: I don’t recollect what happened to them but they, very often, with other crews a very experienced person, trying to get them out of that aircraft and, you know, with the special squadron and we came in that category. BW: And you moved then in August ‘43 abroad. You went and flew to Blida in Algeria. JW1: Blida, yeah. BW: To join 624 Squadron. JW1: Blida was in, er, I don’t know what you’d call it now, with a lake. What do you call it now? BW: So, we were talking just before Joe about your transfer to the special duties squadron, when you flew to North Africa, to Blida in Algeria. What do you remember about that? JW1: Very little, if anything really, but because I’d been learning maths at school and, you know, they used to, even though I was one of the least experienced, er, air people, air crew they, er, still wanted me to tell them about it, you know. BW: And you conducted operations, again in a Halifax, but you were dropping supplies and spies I believe in different parts of Europe. JW1: Oh yeah, yeah. I’d forgotten about those. I’d forgotten details of them. JW2: You told me that you can remember, um, dropping agents that were also dangerous people. JW1: I’ve forgotten. JW2: And that they — JW1: They were let out of jail you mean? JW2: Yes and you told me that, that one of them — do you remember one particular case where he was dropped with handcuffs and when he landed he would be able to access the key to unlock himself because it was zipped up inside his outfit? Do you remember that, um, Jim Rosbottom was the despatcher? JW1: I’ll just have a sip. JW2: Jim Rosbottom was the despatcher. JW1: Jim. It wasn’t Jim. JW2: Jim Rosbottom. JW1: It wasn’t Jim though was it? JW2: Yes he was the despatcher and you said that he was the despatcher and you said he used to tie himself to the fuselage when he was dropping some dangerous people to ensure that he didn’t get pulled out of the plane as well. JW1: I’ve forgotten. JW2: And he also used to, he used do his own form of bombing sometimes by throwing whole packets out, of leaflets out instead of cutting them up sometimes. JW1: Oh yeah [slight laugh]. BW: Did you ever talk to these agents that you were dropping? JW1: I forget that really. I think they were kept apart from us, you know, in the aircraft so we wouldn’t do. BW: Were they put on at the last minute after you’d all been briefed and got in the aircraft? JW1: Not really. They’d been let out of jail to do that job. Is that my tea, love? Is that mine? I’ve got a recollection of it, yeah. BW: What did you do? JW1: I don’t know. I just put it inside my satchel with my shirt over it [slight laugh]. BW: So, you were told to leave your log book with the CO and you took it instead when he wasn’t looking. He nipped out the office and you slipped it under your shoulder and put your jacket over? JW1: Very likely. BW: And you flew, on these missions you flew to quite a few different places. You flew to Yugoslavia and you flew to the south of France, Corsica and Italy as well. JW1: And what? BW: And to Italy as well. Do you remember how you dropped the supplies to the resistance, the partisans? JW1: Not really. I’ve not thought about it. I’ve not kept the memory going. I used to know it. BW: But there was another member of the crew, Jim Leith. JW2: No he was a different. He was in 624 but they were not dad’s — BW: In a different aircraft. JW2: But dad, you told me about when you went over the — is it the Samarian Gorge, is that right? JW1: Go on. JW2: Is that right. Is it called the Samarian Gorge in Greece? BW: I don’t know to be honest. JW2: And you told me, you told me that your Halifax was so heavy with your load that you had to jettison it and when you got back you had a lot of explaining to do because you discovered what your heavy load was. Do you remember what your heavy load was? It was gold bullion but you didn’t know you were carrying it. JW1: No. JW2: I wonder whether that was an orthodox war practice and I wonder who found it. JW1: People used to, if you were dropping money or gold, they would to take a bit of it for themselves. JW2: Off the flight, yeah. Well, you would have crashed into a mountain, you would have crashed into the Gorge, if you hadn’t dropped it because you were losing height. JW1: Oh, happy days [slight laugh]. BW: Were all of these flights at night? JW1: Yes, as far as I remember. I think there may have been the odd one, overseas ones, that were in daylight. BW: How did it feel when you were flying these missions as opposed to being over Germany? JW1: Oh it was a lot easier. BW: Just because it was secret did you feel any heightened sense of danger? JW1: Not really, no. BW: Did you treat it like any other sort of job? JW1: Yeah. BW: And what was it like when you on the base in North Africa. What were the facilities like? Can you remember? Was it a rough strip? JW1: Not really but it was fairly close, you know, to Britain. JW1: Do you remember that you almost got into trouble one night because you snuck out somewhere to go drinking and, er, or for a night out and I think you missed your transport back and you had to come through territory that you didn’t know very well but you had to walk all the way through the night to get back on for parade the next day. JW1: I’ve forgotten. JW2: You’ve forgotten that? Do you recall, um, do you remember that you got fined and you thought it was a miscarriage of justice? JW1: No. JW2: What do you remember about the, the revolver that you left on the plane, the Halifax overnight? JW1: Nothing. I know, er, I took a revolver, you know, in case we were shot down and we — JW2: You left it on the plane and it went missing. JW1: Oh yeah. JW2: And you got hauled up for questioning about it and I seem to remember that you said in your defence — well they said you should not have left it on the plane because it was in your care, and you said, ‘Well maybe we should have taken the Browning off the plane as well.’ JW1: Take what? JW2: Maybe we should have taken the Browning off the plane as well because there’s an armed guard there. Anyway, they, they didn’t accept your response and they fined you. So you had to pay. Can you not remember what your fine was? You were fined a few pounds for losing that revolver or not looking after it so somebody took it but you were very annoyed about it. JW1: Yeah. JW2: Because there was an armed guard and it still went missing. BW: Your CO, when you were in North Africa, your CO was Wing Commander Stanbury. Does the name ring any, ring any bells with you? JW1: Oh, [unclear] . I remember the name, Stanbury, yeah. Because they had a shop or something then didn’t he? BW: No. No. JW2: Clive Stanbury? JW1: Clive, yeah. JW2: What do you remember about him? JW1: Not much. JW2: Do you remember him asking you to do another mission when you done your two tours? JW1: What did I say, ‘Bugger off?’ JW2: I’m not sure [slight laugh]. I think you said you didn’t have to do it. You told me at the time that you felt this particular one would be suicidal. JW1: I’ve forgotten that one. I’ve forgotten the incident. BW: So it was a case of one more trip but you said, ‘No.’ JW1: I bought these carpets while I was there. JW2: That was much later. JW1: Eh? JW2: Yeah. That was much than that, dad. JW1: Was it? JW2: Yeah. JW1: I thought it was from the Air Force? JW2: No, no they weren’t. JW1: Are you sure? JW2: Yeah. JW1: I’ve forgotten then. BW: Your last operations were in early March 1944 and then you flew back in a Dakota by quite a circuitous route, by the look of it. You got lifts here there and everywhere through Egypt and then you went down to Bulawayo in Rhodesia. JW1: Oh, yeah. Was I instructing there? BW: It doesn’t say so but did you come an instructor after the war. JW1: Afterwards yeah. For a bit until I was demobbed. BW: And what do you recall about being demobbed? Were you happy the war was over? JW1: I think I must have been but I don’t recollect much. Do you do many operations with people such as I? BW: Yes. JW1: And did as many aircraft, as many trips as I’ve done? BW: Some have but not many because usually after thirty ops that was it. That was the end of their service but you went on to do forty-seven. JW1: I did forty-seven trips? Amazing. BW: In total. JW1: Amazing. BW: And were you ever injured at all during that time? JW1: Sorry? BW: Were you ever injured at all during that time? JW1: No. BW: You mentioned that you received some shrapnel in the face. JW1: I don’t remember. BW: At one point. JW1: It’s gone out of my head. BW: It must, it must not have been a serious injury. What happened after the war? Did you continue in the RAF? JW1: Not really. I was chucked out. They didn’t want me then after the war. Well, I say they did but a group of them from the local squadron, er, knew who I was, you know, and I’ve forgotten anyway. BW: Do you remember when you left the RAF? JW1: No. What does it say there? BW: Would it be about 1946? JW1: ’46? BW: Would it be about that or was it ’45? JW1: Oh, forgotten. BW: What did you [clears throat] what did you do when you returned home? Did you — JW1: What job did I do? BW: What — did you meet up with your girlfriend? JW1: I’ve forgotten that even. What did I do when I came out of the Air Force? JW2: Well you’d broken up with Cathleen McGraw because you were a Catholic and she wasn’t and it was, it was irreconcilable I think and you went to teacher, you went to teacher training. JW1: Where at? JW2: Strawberry Hill in Twickenham. JW1: Where? JW2: Strawberry Hill. Richmond was it? JW1: Yeah. JW2: And you met my mother when you were teacher training. You were in her classroom. You were an assist— you were learning how to be a teacher and she was already a teacher. JW1: Where is she now? She’s not with us? JW2: No. Its twelve years since — JW1: How long since? JW2: Twelve years. JW1: Was it? JW2: Mm. [background noises] BW: [pause] Do you remember anything else from your teaching days? JW1: Did I what? BW: Do you remember anything from your teaching days? Did you back come up here to teach or did you stay down south in London. JW1: What’s he say? JW2: Well, you fell in love with my mum. JW1: Where was she? JW2: Well, she was down south and you decided to go, when everyone else was on rations, you decided to go and live in Rhodesia and you, you got married secretly in London. Your family didn’t know because you’d — it was complicated because you had broken up with your — someone who was still visiting your mother’s house and, um, you got married and then you went to live in Africa for five years, Rhodesia, and then you came back and had my brother John. And so after that you were teaching in Rhodesia, in Cyprus, Limassol, and Korea. JW1: I’ve forgotten that. JW2: That’s what you did. JW1: Runcorn [?] before you retired. BW: OK. JW1: That it? BW: What do you, er, what do you think of the commemorations being given for Bomber Command? JW1: What do I think about what? BW: The commemoration, the remembrance that’s being given to Bomber Command now? JW1: I don’t know. I think I went to one and I wasn’t allowed to — for some reason or other. The first one, early in the — I wasn’t allowed to join the rest of them because I, I was in civvies really. You know, to be in civvies, they wouldn’t acknowledge that, what we’ve been talking about now. BW: So did they not mention Bomber Command? Was, were you sort of side-lined a little bit? JW1: Yeah. They didn’t mention it. They were glad to see the last of me ‘cause I knew more about it than what they did, you know, being left in England. BW: But what about the respect or the commemoration that’s being paid to veterans of Bomber Command now. How do you feel about that? JW1: Never thought about it. JW2: We went to it dad. Were went to the celebrations. A statue showing several airmen on the way back from ops looking tired and dejected and, and, um, exhausted that was unveiled and it was very powerful. We went up there when the Queen opened it at Bomber Command and we, the whole family went with you to that and you went, you went up to the statue. After all the fuss had gone down and we had a few, we had some beers at the area where we were, and then we went just to look at it when the crowds had gone down but the crowds were still there. And there were a lot of people asking for your autograph and they wanted you to shake hands with other veterans and lots of photographs were taken. I think you were surprised at all the fuss then as well. But there was a big campaign to, to, um, to acknowledge the role that Bomber Command played in the war because some people think you were ignored or that you were demonised. Bomber Command did not get a campaign medal. JW1: No. JW2: And it took till a few years ago for you to get a clasp. JW1: I never got it. JW2: I need to apply for it yet. JW1: Eh? JW2: You are entitled it and I need to apply for it for you. JW1: You can have it if you get it. JW2: Right, thank you. I’ve got it on tape now. BW: It’s official. OK, well that’s all the questions I have for you and thanks to you Jenny for all your help. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Wilson Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Brian Wright Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-12-31 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AWilsonJ161231 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Description An account of the resource Before the war, Joe was a trainee pharmacist with a love of mathematics. He signed up for the RAF and flew briefly in Tiger Moths, becoming a bomb aimer. He went to 20 Operational Training Unit at RAF Lossiemouth, followed by 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Pocklington where he trained on Wellingtons. He was posted to 102 Squadron. He was lauded for some excellent photographs of an armaments factory in Essen. They were coned by searchlights for 11 minutes and subsequently instructed on how to take evasive action. Joe would challenge the routes in briefing to ensure they got to the target in the most efficient manner. There is a discussion about searchlight colours and decoy fires, as well as flying above the range of the anti-aircraft guns. Unfortunately, Joe’s crew were killed going to Stettin when he did not fly. Joe went to a Conversion Unit on Halifaxes and joined 76 Squadron at RAF Linton-on-Ouse and RAF Holme-on-Spalding with a new experienced pilot. They went to 138 Squadron at RAF Tempsford. He joined 624 Squadron at Blida in Algeria, dropping agents and supplies in different parts of Europe. On one occasion, because of the weight, they had to jettison gold bullion to avoid crashing into the Samaria Gorge in Greece. Joe did 47 operations and, after demobilisation, taught overseas. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Christine Kavanagh Maureen Clarke Sally Coulter Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940 1942 1943 1944 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Yorkshire England--Cambridgeshire Scotland--Moray North Africa Algeria Germany Germany--Essen Germany--Ruhr (Region) Greece Greece--Crete Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:27:34 audio recording 102 Squadron 138 Squadron 1652 HCU 20 OTU 624 Squadron 76 Squadron Absent Without Leave aircrew anti-aircraft fire bomb aimer bombing Halifax Heavy Conversion Unit memorial Operational Training Unit Pathfinders RAF Blida RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor RAF Linton on Ouse RAF Lossiemouth RAF Pocklington RAF Tempsford Resistance searchlight Special Operations Executive Tiger Moth training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/657/8930/AWorralJR150603.mp3 1b1651498a905ee755fa3b740b1b30f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Worral, Ray Joseph Raymond Worral J R Worral Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Worral, JR Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Flying Officer Ray Worral (Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 44 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document My name is Raymond Worral, I am usually known as Ray and I joined the RAF in nineteen forty three as an Aircrew Flight Engineer. Sorry do you want more information about my name? MJ. No, just that you are doing and interview for the Bomber Command thing . RW. I am doing this recording for the Bomber Command, Historical Centre is it? And em em this is what my career is. I em joined the RAF in nineteen forty three, I was an Aircrew Flight Engineer, I volunteered, and I em I went on training. I joined up at the RAF Receiving Centre in January nineteen forty three and from there on I began my training as an Aircrew Flight Engineer. I stayed at the receiving centre for a few weeks, then after that I was posted to an ITW Initial Training Centre, Initial Training Wing at Bridlington in Yorkshire, where I stayed for about three months I think. From January, from the end of January until the end of March and we were kept busy at the Centre there. Square bashing em on parade, learning all the things we needed to know about, basic morse code, we had to know about the Aircrew discipline procedure and everything to do with the RAF. We had a lot of marching up and down the front, it was in cold weather. We were on parade at half past six in the morning on the front at Bridlington towards the end of January in freezing cold weather and then we marched about and did some square bashing and then we went to have our breakfast. Then after breakfast we were on parade again and then we went on various courses which we were told about in em, various places in Bridlington. That continued for about three months I think, em, I should think until the end[pause]. I should think it was till about the end eh, probably lasted about six weeks, so that would take me till about April, when I went down to St Athen on the Flight Engineers training course. This was all ground training and we learned all about aero engines. There was a big RAF Station there, a very big RAF Station in St Athen in South Wales. We went to lectures every morning in the workshops and we learned all about the construction of an aircraft, the framework and the engines. We learned particularly because I was designated to go onto Lancaster aircraft, we learned about the Lancaster. We learned all about the engines and all about the framework. That course lasted for about nine months I think. In the middle of it we were sent on a week’s course to Manchester to the Manchester factory at Ringway just outside Manchester to have a weeks course there. We were talked to by the people who actually worked on the aircraft. After about nine months on the course we were given a test and we graduated in November about the middle of November nineteen forty three. From there I was posted to RAF Scampton which was a waiting centre and em, eventually I was posted to em, I think it was, Winthorpe which was a Lancaster Conversion Unit. There I met the rest of the Crew, the rest of the Crew had completed their training just as I had completed mine. The Crew of a Lancaster consisted of the Pilot, the Flight Engineer, the Navigator, the Bomb Aimer, Rear Gunner, Mid Upper Gunner and the Wireless Operator. We met in the Mess at Winthorpe and got to know people. Eventually we got together in a room and we got ourselves Crewed up. The others, apart from me had already been Crewed up and already done some training so we sat about and talked to each other and one of the Pilots came up to me and asked if I would like to join his Crew. He seemed a nice sensible sort of Chap so I said yes I would like to join his Crew and so I came to join his Crew. He was an Australian and I met the other members of his crew, the Navigator, an Australian, the Bomb Aimer and Australian and then the em, Wireless Operator, two Gunners were Englishmen and then we started out training at the Conversion Unit at Winthorpe. I think we were there for about two months doing cross country flights, practice bombing flights and em, all the other things we needed to do and getting to know the Crew. After we had done about two months, probably a bit more, probably about ten weeks we were then posted to what they called an RAF Finishing School, sorry a Lancaster Finishing School which was at RAF Syerston near Nottingham. Posted together from the time we were crewed up at Winthorpe we stuck together as a Crew completely. Did everything together even very often went out together to the Pub together and that sort of thing. So we left Winthorpe and went to the RAF Finishing, Lancaster Finishing School which was at Syerston near Nottingham. Continued out training there, special training as applied to a Lancaster Bomber. We had about six weeks there probably a bit more where as a Crew we were posted to the RAF Station at Dunholme Lodge, just outside Lincoln. Dunholme Lodge to 44 Squadron, Bomber Command it was a Rhodesian Squadron in those days and it was RAF, 5 Group Bomber Command. We joined this Squadron as a Crew, all in the same bus, we went in, and we went into the Mess, we were all Sergeants and we went into the Mess and em, It was just before lunchtime on a day before February, I forget what day it was. About the ninth of February and we got into the Mess. I can remember what happened then, it was the day after the well know Nurenberg Raid and eh,the Squadron had been out on that Raid the night before and there had been very heavy losses. When we got into the Mess they were all very, all the people there were silent and quiet and not very friendly and rather gloomy because there had been serious losses. It was not a very bright start to our joining an Operational Squadron. Anyway we had to continue and it was probably I should think, a month to six weeks until we had to do an Operation. We continued to practice doing cross country flights, air tests, bombing runs out on the North Sea off Skegness off the Coast there and a large number of cross country flights day time and night time. Then at the beginning of April we got our first Operation to do. We were [Pause] I’ve got plenty of notes, I just need to look them up.[long pause] I’m sorry, Winthorpe I was sent to to meet up with the Crew, or did I say it was?On the thirty first of March nineteen forty four and over the following five months em. We entered the Sergeants Mess the atmosphere was cold and unfriendly, little was said. When the one o’clock news came on the Radio we discovered why people were so quiet and so unfriendly because the Squadron had taken part the previous night in the Nurenberg Raid.One of the Bomber Command disasters when seven hundred and ninety five aircraft were dispatched and ninety four were shot down and many others severely damaged. And em, had serious losses and em[pause]. We were briefed for our first Operation. It was a month or six weeks of non Operational flying at this stage and then on the twenty sixth of April we were briefed for our first Operational Target which was Swinefurt in Germany. We went to our briefing and we were told all about what would happen over, on the flight.Went through all our checks. I as Flight Engineer went through a detailed selection of checks. There was the aircraft, before we moved out and em straight and level to the Target and then we dropped our bombs and came back, so we had quite a good trip. Then two nights later we went on a Bombing Trip to Oslo, in Norway. It was a long trip but it was quite a safe trip because we were flying over firstly the sea. Then on the night of the nineteenth of May nineteen forty four, I came back from leave we’d been on leave, and I came back and we went on a Bombing Trip to Amiens in France, then to on the twenty, no the twenty second of May we were off to Kiel in Kiel Bay to drop mines. Know as a Gardening Operation and so we carried on through our tour. We did twenty five trips successfully. Slight damage on some occasions, we got back. We had done twenty five trips, which was pretty well a record for the Squadron. The average losses, the crews lasted about ten trips so we done pretty well. Then we were briefed to go to Stuttgart on the night of the twenty fifth,twenty sixth of July Nineteen Forty Four. We set off for Stuttgart, it’s a big industrial town in Germany and our target was the Mercedes works, aircraft works in the centre of Stuttgart. We had been the night before, there were heavy losses but the raid had not been a success so when we set off on the twenty fourth, twenty fifth July, we were, I was going to say something. We were on our second trip in twenty four hours back to Stuttgart. On this trip we set off and normally we would fly over the Coast, the French Coast across the anti aircraft defences. All along that Coast was absolutely deadly and we always lost an awful lot of aircraft crossing the Coast. On this particular occasion the Allies had already, as I say this was the twenty fifth, twenty sixth of July,by then the Allies had landed in Normandy and they had built a Bridgehead in Normandy. So we didn’t have to cross the Coast on this particular occasion we were able to go over the Normandy Peninsula and miss out the anti aircraft defences all along the Coast. So we able to go over the Normandy Peninsula and missed out the anti aircraft defences all along the Coast. So we crossed over onto the Normandy Peninsula, flew up the Normandy Peninsula and then turned because we were flying over allied territory for about half and hour or so and we turned and headed for Stuttgart, unfortunately on the way to Stuttgart we were hit, bombs from another aircraft, so the Rear Gunner said. Aircraft got out of control, Skipper said “bale out,” we had to bale out, we had proper procedure for bailing out. The Bomb Aimer was first, he took the hatch of and em, em, baled out into space, then the Flight Engineer, that was me and then the Navigator and finally the Pilot and the Bombers and Radio Operator baled out from the rear, the rear exit. So we got the Bomber, the Pilot decided when we were hit, he asked me to help him with the flying controls. The Control Column was jammed, two of us pulling of it, pulling on it didn’t have any effect, he decided to bale out and it is a good job he did. If he had taken another thirty seconds to bale out we would have all been killed, he made up his mind very quickly and gave us the order to bale out. I went down into the Bomb Nose, saw the Bomb Aimer bale out, I baled out and fortunately my parachute worked and I landed, I don’t know, might have been about ten thousand, I don’t know between eight and five thousand feet when I baled out. When I left the cockpit I could see the altimeter and it was at about seven thousand feet, so it was probably about five thousand feet by the time I got down into the Bomb Bay, and em I saw the Bomb Aimer bale out into space and I hesitated a bit, I got scared, fortunately the Navigator came down behind me and said “bloody well get a move on” and gave me a push, so I had no choice and baled out. So I reckon it was about five thousand feet when I baled out, parachute opened thank God and I landed in Enemy Territory. I landed in a ploughed field, and em, I was in the parachute for a few minutes and em, landed in a ploughed field. I was lucky because it was fairly soft. I didn’t hurt myself. There was a road running alongside the field if I had landed there I might have broken a leg or back or whatever, so I was lucky. I picked myself up [garbled] and I was ok, I had a few bruises and scratches and that was it. So I hid my parachute as a drill, first of all em, first of all, the parachute is a tremendous thing on the ground and there was a gust of wind and it caught my parachute, a parachute as big as an English Bowling Green, filled with air, pulled me right across this field and I hang onto this parachute, it pulled me right across this field, got very grazed across one side of my face and when the wind dropped I managed to haul the parachute in and collected it all up and did as I was told to do, hide it, which was to hide it in a ditch. Then I, I well before that I had to of course hit the button which released the harness, the harness and the parachute went into the ditch.Then I was left, there I was in enemy territory all on my own, don’t know where the others had got to, very scary but I done as I was told and run off as fast as I could. Had to run off as fast as I could because I’m afraid you would do nothing. It had been found that after you had gone through that experience when you landed and did nothing you didn’t do anything until someone came and found you, until they collected you and you finished up as a Prisoner of War. So act quickly and get moving, so having buried my parachute I ran as fast as I could, don’t worry where you are going to, just get away from the scene of the crash, from the scene of where you dropped as quickly as you can. If someone has seen the parachute come down and they get there, you are some distance away and you have a chance of hiding. So I ran, I was fairly fit then, ran for nearly an hour I think and I was eventually tired, got down and began to walk. All very quiet and eventually I came to a little village and em there was a church in the village. I was fairly tired then I thought “I will get into the church if its open and collect my thoughts” So it was well after midnight I should think, don’t know what the time would be. Think it was about midnight when we were hit actually, it would probably be about one o’clock in the morning. I walked into this church and the door was open, so I went in and sat on a pew and collected my thoughts and rested, rested for about half and hour and then I thought “I had better get away.” I moved out and continued my walk right through the night and em, er just walked and then as dawn, well just before dawn I heard the sound as I was walking back, walking the sound of heavy bombers. They must have been our bomber squadrons going back having bombed Stuttgart. Anyway I continued walking and as it came to daylight I crept under a hedge and fell asleep er, Daylight came and I thought I had better hide myself. I hid under this hedge on the hard ground and er, early dawn just come daylight. I fell asleep, I was very comfortable and I slept until about one o’clock. I remember waking up at about one o’clock looking at my watch, I was woken up, slept all that time. When I woke up I could hear voices in the field next to me, so I didn’t show myself, I thought they might not be friendly. So I stayed where I was wondering what to do. I thought that the best thing I could do was to stay here hidden all day and when it gets dark will continue on some sort of a journey. So I lay all day under the hedge, could hear these voices in the field and then when it was beginning, it was late afternoon, beginning to get a bit dark and the people left working in the field. So before it got dark I thought well, “it’s no use staying under the hedge here, I’ve got my escape kit, got my escape map I have no idea where I am but I might be able to find it with a map. So I will get out before it gets dark and see if I can have a look at my map.” So I, before it got dark I walked out, the people in the fields had stopped working and gone home. When I got onto the road, just a narrow country lane I walked along and there were a few people about and I walked along and to my surprise, to my great surprise they took no notice of me. Well what was I wearing at this stage? Well I was wearing my Battle Dress over the top part of the Battle Dress I had a linen, sort of a brown linen jacket which you could plug into the aircraft and it was electrically heated but I didn’t need to use it, but I thought I would just use it as something to wear in the aircraft. It covered me from the hip upwards so it was, it covered the top part of my Battle Dress and the only bit of my Battle Dress that was showing was my collar and tie. But in those days the French farmers wore a grey shirt with a black tie invariably, so that was ok. My Battle Dress trousers well they were like a pair of scruffy overalls. The boots, the flying boots were made that so that you could cut the fitting off round the ankle, through the leg part away and to all intents and purposes it was just like an ordinary shoe. Very clever I thought the Air Force were pretty good at doing these things. I passed people looking like that and they took no notice of me, in fact I thought I heard one say “alez mons” I think that’s German, I think they thought I was a stray German that got in. They took no notice of me, I was very impressed, I thought this is good news. So I walked in, walked in, kept walking and passed people and it was ok. Then I came to a village, there were a few people in the village, and em and I thought well. Another thing is as I walked into the village there was a sign post, what a wonderful give away. I remember thinking at the beginning of the War when we had the invasion scare in nineteen forty all our sign posts and and everywhere, all the names of the villages were sealed off. If you went into a village and it had Fulford Post Office on it, Fulford was crossed out because they were scared of German Parachutes’ in nineteen forty four we didn’t want to give them any help and of course the Germans didn’t have time to do this during the War. So there were these sign posts, so I thought “right I will have a look at this sign post and see where it is pointing to.” I picked one name and see if I can find it on the map. So I walked through the village and got into a quiet field, got the map out, and sure enough this village Langur was marked on the escape map, pretty good. So I could see where I was and roughly where I wanted to go, so em, er I had done fairly well so far and so I thought I will continue to walk. I em, I felt as it got dark as it began to get dark I felt rather sick, I think it was reaction, I felt rather weak and so I saw a haystack and I crawled into it and I spent that night in the haystack. I was quite comfortable and woke up at the break of dawn next morning very, very cold and I decided to walk on. So I got out of the haystack and I must say I hadn’t had anything to eat since the time we had left Dunholme Lodge in Lincolnshire I had nothing to eat. I couldn’t do anything, there was an escape kit, very well done but I didn’t but I hadn’t, I didn’t there were things in it, chocolate, bars of chocolate, sugar sweets all that sort of thing. I got out of the haystack and I walked on The next period of excitement was when I, it was early morning and I came to another village and there was a road leading through it, all was quiet, very early in the morning. So I thought em, well I have two choices, I don’t want to be seen in the village so I will walk round it but it was a long way round. I wanted to conserve time and energy, I’ll risk it I’ll walk through the main village street, there is nobody about. So I began to walk through the village street, when it got to the cross roads in the centre to my horror I heard the sound of very heavy vehicles and I thought to myself “this isn’t good news” [Laugh]. One thing it could be; Germans. So I thought “well” I turned round and a few yards behind me was a walled garden with a gate so I managed to run like mad and jump into a bush inside that gate. I looked out from the bush and eh em, no sooner had a got there than one big German lorry packed with troops, came up to the cross roads, turned right in the direction I had wanted to go and it was followed by about five others all packed with German troops so I’d only just missed being caught so I had been very lucky. When they’d gone and disappeared I thought best thing now is to get out of this garden and get moving on my way. I didn’t know if the occupant of the farmhouse or whatever were friendly or not. So being a pessimist I thought he will probably be. Oh they were at great risk these civilians I mean if they were help to them they would get shot. So em there was a great temptation to hand us over to the Germans so I walked on through the village. I got to the other side of the village and to my horror I saw, I heard the sound of heavy lorries again. I thought “goodness me not again” well again I was lucky, there was a farm building across the fields and no hedges, so I run like mad and hid behind this farm building. When I looked round it I could see there were several lorries, I think they were the same ones, there were no troops in them this time. There was a driver, machine gunner on the running board, on the running the board the chap had a machine gun pointing to the sky and there was the driver, and em. I saw this from behind this farmhouse that I’d reached and they hadn’t seen me, there was about another four or five of them. They disappeared and I walked back onto the road. Until this day I cannot understand why they did not see me running across that field to the farmhouse, it was just one of those miracles. So I continued walking and em, it was quite amazing that they did not see me. I can only think that the driver had his eyes on the road, machine gunner was looking up to the sky, don’t forget there were RAF patrols flying over that area at that time of the War and em they might have been straffed, so I think they, he was watching the sky and just didn’t see me. So I walked on, I continued my journey getting hungrier and very tired and I passed other people and they did not take any notice of me, I thought this is marvellous and then em. The next worrying part was having walked most of the morning, I came up to a tee junction and the tee junction was about quarter of a mile or more ahead of me. Everything was quiet except that up to this tee junction came a Vaux wagon camouflaged German army car. I could see it had four soldiers in it and when it turns and goes in the opposite direction I’ll be lucky. If it turns right and comes towards me I am bound to be caught. So no chance to hide, they could see me from where they were. Just carried on walking, put my hands in my pockets, looked miserable, kept my eyes on the road. We were warned in escape drill don’t make eye to eye contact and this car came towards me, I thought the games up, comes to me, if I had put my hand out I could have touched it, it was travelling at twenty five thirty miles per hour and it came past me, waiting for it, expecting it to stop to come and get me. Didn’t stop, didn’t dare look round, looked round about ten minutes later, the car was gone. How they missed me I can’t imagine, I just can’t imagine, it was absolutely wonderful they just didn’t see me. I can’t believe it now when I look back on it all it was tremendous. So I carried on walking. The more I think of it these incidents are absolutely incredible. I continued walking until about lunchtime as far as it would be. I was getting rather desperate actually and I was walking along, em, just outside another village when a lad on a bicycle passed me, “Oh dear” I thought “what is he going to do?” Take no notice of him again, but he passed me and I heard him get off his bicycle and stop, I continued walking but I heard him call, so I thought “I have no alternative, I can’t run now” so I went over to him, he said “are you RAF” I said “yes” he said “well I can help you, follow me.” So I followed him, he took me off the road and led me up a bridle path and said “hide under this hedge, I’m coming back, I’m going to get help for you.” So again I lay under the hedge and waited, not quite sure what was going to happen and em, after about half an hour. Anyway it might be interesting to say why he say me when others didn’t and this was because I was foolish enough to be chewing some gum. The French didn’t get chewing gum during the War we got it in our escape packs and we were given it when we went out on a Bombing Mission, so we had chewing gum and I shouldn’t have been chewing it, he saw me, gave it away, gave the game away. So I waited and then a car, after about half an hour a car came up the bridle path and stopped and the lad, he would only have been about fifteen I suppose was in the drivers seat, was in the passenger seat and the driver got out. He was a tall man and he got out and he shook hands with me, spoke perfect English and said hello and all that and shook hands with me. He said put this overcoat on and get in the back of my car. So I did as I was told and he backed out and we went and backed out onto the road and drove off. The driver explained to me, he spoke very good English that he was the local Doctor and was aloud to have some petrol so that he could see his patients and occasionally he was able to pick up and help and Airman, I was one. He told me his wife was English, they got married in Brighton before the War and em, they came to live in France. We drove on and came to another village and the lad who picked me up left the car, thank you very much and all that sort of thing and I never saw any more of him. And that’s the way the Resistance works, I don’t think that lad would know where the driver, the doctor was taking me. If he was caught he could not give any further information away. That was the sort of way SOE and the Resistance worked. And em, drove on and I came to a farmhouse. Excuse me I must take a break. MJ. This is the first recording of Raymond Worrall on the third of June two thousand and fifteen for the Historical Unit. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ray Worral Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mick Jeffery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-06-03 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Worral, JR Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:40:41 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource Raymond (Ray) Worral joined the RAF in 1943. Ray completed his initial training in RAF Bridlington and then St Athan for his flight engineer training course and learnt the technicalities of the Lancaster. After being crewed up at Winthorpe, Ray attended Lancaster Finishing School at RAF Syerston and describes being stuck with the crew completely and often went to the pub with them. Ray along with his crew was posted to RAF Dunholme Lodge, doing practice cross country flights before completing 25 operations. Ray describes being hit on the way to an operation in Stuttgart, and then remembers the baling out procedure and parachuting into a ploughed field. He talks of his experiences of evading capture and hiding away from a column of German military trucks filled with soldiers. Ray also describes walking down the road past civilians and an enemy vehicle and being amazed for not being spotted. The interview closes with Ray describing being helped by a French doctor and ending up at a farmhouse. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maureen Clarke 44 Squadron aircrew bale out bomb struck crewing up evading fear flight engineer Lancaster Lancaster Finishing School RAF Dunholme Lodge RAF St Athan RAF Syerston RAF Winthorpe Resistance training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/782/9034/MTroglioP[DoB]-180902-04.jpg 3b12a3ff7e6d605ecf972f33a0710be4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Troglio, Paolo and Bernabè, Angelo Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Troglio, P-Bernabe, A Description An account of the resource <p>40 items. The collection consists of the service and private papers of Paolo Troglio (b. 1921), an aviere of Regia Aeronautica later attached to the Luftwaffe. Paolo was stationed in Italy, France, Greece, Albania, and on the Russian Front where he became a prisoner of war. He escaped and was posted to a Luftwaffe logistic unit with the rank of Gefreiter. Toward the end of the war, back in Italy, Paolo became an informant for the Resistance, to which he passed military intelligence. The collection comprehends photographs of barracks, aircraft, airfields, ordnance, and his friends in informal settings. There is also correspondence exchanged between Paolo and his family, letters from the 'Italia' partisan brigade, and a pair of Deutsche Afrika Korps googles. The collection also include correspondence about a war damage claim lodged by Angelo Bernabè, whose daughter would later be married to Paolo.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>The collection was donated by Sara Troglio and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff, with the valuable assistance of the Archeologi dell'Aria research group (<a href="https://www.archeologidellaria.org">https://www.archeologidellaria.org</a>) and further identification provided by Claudio Gioia.</p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-02 Transcribed document A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document Si fa noto ai Comandi C.L.N che il Sig. TROGLIO Paolo di Giulio nato a Leno (Brescia) il 10/9/1921 benche [sic] appartenente all'Aviazione Repubblicana era in forza presso la Brigata Italia B.t:g; BURRASCA in data 23/11/1944 dandoci informazioni molto utili sul movimento arei del campo di Villafranca. Cooperava in pattuglie arditamente e distinguevasi per prontezza di spirito. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Paolo Troglio's contribution to the Resistance movement Description An account of the resource Brief account of Paolo Troglio's contribution to the Resistance movement in the Verona area: he's praised for initiative and fighting spirit. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1945-05-06 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Alessandro Pesaro Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One typewritten form Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MTroglioP[DoB]-180902-04 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Italy Italy--Villafranca di Verona Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1945 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Enzo Olivieri Italy. Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale. Brigata Italia Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Language A language of the resource ita Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana Resistance https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/673/9225/PAndrewsPF1701.1.jpg f2ebdb590ad02e6bdbfb783df0b1cbcd https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/673/9225/AAndrewsPF170911.1.mp3 b75333e621a6c4095f4c7e868ae7b6f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Andrews, Andy Peter Frederick Andrews P F Andrews Description An account of the resource Two items. An oral history interview with Andy Andrews (1924 - 2022, 1811552 Royal Air Force) and his log book. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 10 Squadron before he was shot down on a mine laying operation 14 February 1945 and became a prisoner of war. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by 'Andy' Andrews and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Andrews, PF Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document SP: This is Susanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Peter Frederick Andrews known as Andy Andrews, today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Andy’s home and it’s the 11th of September 2017. So, first of all, thank you Andy for agreeing to talk to me today. AA: Quite alright. Yeah. SP: So, Andy, tell me about life before the RAF. AA: I left school at fourteen years of age which was the time that you left education in those days and I went to work as a, in a tailoring, a tailoring shop in Tunbridge High Street. And I was there until such time as I got an interest in flying and I joined the Air Training Corps and they brought my education up a bit by giving me more maths training than I’d had before. And I, in, in those days at seventeen and a quarter you could volunteer for the flying duties in the RAF because it, all air crew were volunteers during the war. And I was, I went into the RAF. As I say I was in a gent’s outfitters and I was there until such time as I went into the RAF at seventeen and a quarter which was the end of 1941, and started. Kitted out at Cardington. Went from there to Blackpool and at Blackpool we did Morse training in the Winter Gardens. And we were there in the winter period and if weather was too bad for physical training we did it in the Tower Ballroom which was quite an experience because the organist on the big organ was usually rehearsing and it was quite, quite an experience. And once we finished at Blackpool we, we went to Lossiemouth in Scotland which was the Operational Training Unit. And the method of crewing up in the RAF in those days sounds a bit chaotic really because you were all in a giant hangar. Air gunners, navigators, bomb aimers, air, wireless operators and pilots and a pilot somehow collected the people that he had spoken to and well, you knew briefly. And he knew one of the gunners because he had, he had been an instructor when the gunner was, James Petre when he was trying for his pilot’s licence which he didn’t manage. Hence the fact he ended up as an air gunner and he picked up him and his mate up as crew. And then they latched on to me and got me as a wireless op and the navigator, whose name was Berry he had red hair so he naturally got nicknamed Red. Plus the fact that the red beret, I mean it was quite obvious why he got the name but, and we formed a crew. We were flying in Wellingtons, training in Wellingtons and we completed, completed our OTU training and from there we went down to York and we went to a Conversion Unit just outside of York called Rufforth. 1663 Con Unit, and we converted on to the Halifax Mark 2 with, with the inlined engine and once we’d, we’d converted successfully on to the Halifax we were sent to a, the squadron which was 10 Squadron. A little village called Seaton Ross or Melbourne and we, we flew in the, they were equipped with the Halifax Mark 3 which was a marvellous aeroplane and we converted on to that. And we had one little hiccup. The bomb aimer that we’d picked up was, he got cold feet and he, he told our pilot Johnny that he wasn’t going to be able to go on ops. So, John told him to go to the medical officer and state his case which he did and he was classed as LMF which is lack of moral fibre and he had his insignia, RAF flying insignia and rank taken away and he was posted off the squadron. But we were very successful in his replacement which was, I’ll be eternally grateful that he came to us because he was so useful to me at a later date when we were prisoner of war. But he was, he come from Liverpool and his name was Stan and he was an ex-docker built quite solid. Again, which I was very grateful for at a later date and he had, he had done a tour in Wellingtons in the Middle East so he’d already done thirty operations when he came to us. He slotted into the crew quite well as one of the senior crews but he was senior to all of us as far as operations are concerned but we started our operating and we did German targets which consisted of the Ruhr which we did a couple of dozen operations. Well, no about twelve operations on the Ruhr which was known to aircrew as Happy Valley and the flak was quite extensive over those areas. Anyhow, we got through nineteen operations and we were feeling confident that we were going to be able to complete our tour without any bother. We’d done a couple of mine laying operations which was code named gardening and was given a, a code name. The one we were on, on, we were briefed to go on was, “Forget Me Nots.” And it was just off the coast of Denmark in the shipping lanes. We were due to drop mines and we took off about 5.30 on the February the 14th, St Valentine’s Day and headed over the coast of Yorkshire heading for, we flew out at five hundred foot to get a bit below the radar so the Germans didn’t pick us up too quick. The, the rest of the squadron, there were just three aircraft on the mine laying which we were one of and the rest of the squadron went to a target called Chemnitz on the 13th of February which was to drag some of the fighter opposition away from Dresden which was the target that night. And they were going to Chemnitz. We were going to drop mines. We took off, flew across to the mainland of Denmark and then climbed to a height of eighteen thousand feet. Headed towards Copenhagen which we were due to, is the island of Zealand and a little farther on we came to the, we would have come to the coast to drop the mines. The bomb aimer had come down to the front to prepare the mines for dropping but unfortunately a JU88 fitted with all the latest equipment had latched on to us. He’d been vectored on to us and once, the method of attack is once they’ve got visual contact with a bomber they flew to the rear of it and slightly underneath so it made the rear gunner couldn’t get a, couldn’t depress his guns far enough to reach them. And then he had a fixed firing .5 gun which actually targeted the front part of the plane. And the part that always fascinates me is the fact that his first burst caught the port wing which was fully alight and the flames were trailing out behind and he he he had another burst which must have killed the pilot because he was sitting immediately above me and I had blood on my battledress which must have been his. And the navigator who sat by my right knee almost within touching distance he had been caught by a cannon shell as well. So, they were both dead. I was in the middle and got away with it apart from superficial cuts and bruises. I stood up, clipped my parachute on and the aircraft was all over the place because the pilot was obviously dead or dying and there was no control and it was flying all over the place and as everybody knows if you’re all over the place in an aircraft it’s difficult to do anything. I was making to move forward to the escape hatch by which time the pilot and the navigator were dead. The mid-upper gunner, the flight engineer and the rear gunner got out of the main escape hatch or the one that you normally come, come in to the aircraft on and they’d gone out. They baled out and just after they had baled out the aircraft blew up and we figured that the nose must have separated from the main fuselage and Stan, who was the bomb aimer he was up in the nose and myself who was about six foot from him must have gone through a gap. And fortunately, as I say I was unconscious and I came to in a silent world because your ears have blacked out. You fall at a hundred and twenty miles an hour. And I looked up and saw the parachute pack but the parachute hadn’t been deployed so I reached up and pulled it. It appears to be in the nick of time because it was only seconds and I hit the deck and in the middle of a field in Denmark. And as I say the, the exiting from the aircraft the flight engineer and the mid-upper gunner got out without any problem at all. Jim, the rear gunner, Jim Petre he turned his guns to, to port because there was, the flames were, were streaming back on the port side and he jettisoned the back doors and fell out backwards. But unfortunately one of his flying boots got caught in the guns so he was trailing out the back and in, with his parachute pack and he realised that he’d got to get away from the aircraft because it was burning and so he pulled the ripcord which yanked him out like a cork out of a bottle and opened the chute. It took him a long while to get down because from sort of eighteen, sixteen thousand feet, whichever we were to the ground takes quite a, quite a number of minutes to get down whereas I was the last one out I reckon and Stan and I we were the first down. And as I say I approached some houses that were alongside the field where we were and I approached some people that were standing out at their gate. They had maps and torches and things to illuminate and whatever, and the first group that I got to said they didn’t want to know because obviously if the Germans, if, if you were a Danish citizen and you helped English aircrew or allied aircrew then you were shot. You were killed. So, they directed me over to another house and I went and knocked the window and that’s when I knew that my hands were quite badly cut and bruised and the blood was running down the window. And they, they took me in and sat me in the chair and dressed my head wounds with paper bandages and I got the escape kit out and the silk map and the currency and all the stuff that goes with it and they pointed, they pointed out where we were in Denmark. And whatever plans I’d got, I was forming in my mind was to get out. Anyhow, they sent for an ambulance and they came along and they picked me up and took me out in a stretcher. Put me in the back of the ambulance. We went down the road, hundred yards not much more I shouldn’t have thought and the back doors opened and Stan was wheeled in. He looked a shocking sight because he was, where Perspex is embedded into his face. It looked a lot worse than what it was. It looked like he was, his whole face was blooded and I suppose mine was must have been the same and I said, ‘You look a shocking sight.’ And he said, ‘Well, you don’t look much better.’ They took us to a hospital which they changed, they put us in an examination room with two benches where we’d laid there and the doctors were checking us over and doing what was necessary and they brought a couple of members of the Resistance in who the doctors interpreted for. One of the doctors could speak really good English and they had said that if we were fit to travel the next day they’d got, they would get us away and we’d get across to Sweden which the other three members of the crew managed to do and they got back to England quite quickly. But unfortunately, somebody in the hospital had blown the whistle on us and said there was two fliers and although they were changing us from ward to ward to keep us out of the way the Germans marched in and took us. And they took us both out on stretchers and they put us in some unbelievable dungeon like place and Stan was one, there was a couple of bunks in there and Stan was in one and I was in the other. And later on that night they brought their girlfriends down to have a laugh at our expense. And as I say Stan was a very forthright ex-docker and he gave them some Liverpool [laughs] swearing which if you, whether they recognised it but they must have known that he wasn’t very happy. And he’d got broken ribs and fortunately the next day the Luftwaffe who had heard that we’d been taken prisoner by the Wehrmacht came and claimed us as their own which they were in the habit of doing because, and they took us to an airfield in Denmark and put us in sick quarters where we were quite well looked after for a few days. I had [sunray] treatment to take the bruising which I was black from just below the thighs up to the chest where the harness was a bit slack and with my delayed drop it did cause quite a bit of damage. But, and Stan also with his broken ribs he had, he had quite a lot of attention and anti-tetanus and all kinds of things and the doctor who could speak, the Luftwaffe doctor who could speak good English, him and Stan had long conversations and argued against the merits of us fighting the Germans and we should never have got into a situation where we were at war with Germany and Stan was saying just how, giving his version of it and it got quite heated. At that particular time Stan had noted or we’d both noted that there was a JU52, one of their transport aircraft was parked not far from the window and they used to take it up for an air test every, every day. And Stan come out with the bright idea that if he could get out to it he’d get us off the ground which I thought might have been a good idea in, in boy’s books but it didn’t sound very convincing to me that he was going to do all that with him with two broken ribs and me strapped up with severe bruising. Anyhow, it came to nothing and we were transported by ship from [pause] from Denmark across the, going over the shipping lanes where the mines had been dropped by other aircraft and we were right in the bowels of this ship and we, but we got away with it. We got to Rostock on the north coast of Germany and then we entrained from there. I had a dodgy experience as we went in to Hamburg. The compartment was reserved just for us and two guards because we had two guards with us and, but the civilians had pushed their way in. In other words, they’d have probably done the same in this country, why should enemy aircrew have a reserved when they were standing in the [laughs] Anyhow, they got that they piled into there and one of them had got me against the door and we were looking out at a part of Hamburg where there wasn’t a stone on a stone. I mean it had been completely obliterated and he was saying, ‘Your comrades,’ and he was trying to undo the door to push me out. Fortunately, the guards with their guns forced them back and put Stan and I up in the corner out of the way and we didn’t have any more trouble from them. But we went from there down to Dulag Luft near Frankfurt which was the Interrogation Centre for all allied aircrew and we were immediately shoved in to solitary confinement and taken out. I think we were there for four days before they were convinced that we’d got no useful information to give us. But we were taken out and chatted to by, or interrogated by German officers who could speak perfect English and offered us cigarette and, ‘Would you like a sandwich?’ And were very nice to us but they had got so much information about 10 Squadron they even knew we’d got a new CO which we’d only had for three weeks, Wing Commander Shannon and they even knew about that. And once they realised that they knew more about 10 Squadron than what I did they released us on to the main camp where we were, I inherited a pair of GI boots which were quite comfortable and we were kitted out and the biggest tragedy as far as I’m concerned we were given a shower and they came along and said I’d got lice so they shaved my head right down to the bone which is the customary mode of hair cutting nowadays but it wasn’t in those days and I was very proud of my mane of hair. And being as we were only short-term prisoners we weren’t there that long. By the time we got back I still only had about half an inch of fuzz on my hair. So, I wore a glengarry all the time, indoors and outdoors. Anyhow, the whole point is that we marched from Dulag Luft down to Nuremberg and that’s where we, we had the unpleasant sight of a B17 had been hit and one of the crew had landed quite near our [pause] we were stopped at that particular time. There was thousands of us but there was also a lot of guards with guns. We couldn’t do anything about it but they’d, the civilians got this American and strung him up to a lamp post. And it’s something that I’ll never forget because I remember his feet twitching as he gave in to the rope and he was killed. But as I say we carried on down to Munich. A big prisoner of war camp called Moosburg and we, night after night if you were lucky you had some kind of accommodation that you stopped at where you had a roof over your head. Apart from that you just slept where you stopped. And we eventually got to the prisoner of war camp and there was far too many people. They were erecting tents, big marquees for people because they had run out of legitimate places. The huts to put us in. And I think there was more people there because they were funnelling in from all over Germany. There was some talk at the time that, the general gossip on the, on the march was that Hitler was going to use us as, as [pause] some kind of reckoning with the allies to get better terms for ending the war but it didn’t happen. But it was one of the things. The funniest thing I ever saw was we had people, guards approaching us with bits of paper saying they’d committed no atrocity. It was that near to the end of the war that they wanted us to sign. And we was, this was at the very end of the march and there was a group of Yanks had got what bits and pieces that they’d got and they’d found an old pram and they piled it all in the pram and they’d got the guard that was guarding their part of the march to put his rifle on the pram and push the pram. And as I say it was that near the end of the war you could get away with quite a lot although things weren’t that good because we were attacked. Fighter Command was sending the American’s Thunderbolts and Mosquitoes and they were having a go at, they were having a go at anything that moved in Germany in those days and when we were on the march they just attacked us and killed five people I believe and wounded quite a few before they realised that we were ex-POWs. But from there we [pause] we were liberated by General “blood and guts” Patton who came in on a jeep with his pearl handled revolvers and we were flown by, after a wait of two or three days at an airfield we managed to get aboard a Dakota and we were flown to Reims in France where Lancasters were coming in nose to tail and we were just piling aboard. We looked a disgusting sight because we were filthy dirty. We wore the same clothes that we were shot down in and I’d had dysentery and we weren’t very nice people to be near. But anyhow, I got aboard a Lancaster and I managed to climb in to the mid-upper turret and as he come over the Channel it was quite a sight to see the white cliffs of Dover. Although we hadn’t been prisoners of war more than three months it was three months that I could have done without. Anyhow, we landed at Cosford. They deloused us which sticking, which is sticking a gun of DDT powder down the front of your blouse and firing it off so that you got white DDT powder coming out of everywhere. And then we had showers, medical examinations, they, they had tables loaded with food which I’d got down to seven and a half stone in that short period and we weren’t able to eat a lot. But we did start to eat again and they gave us money to take on leave and also food coupons which we were told to take home to your family so they could fatten you up a bit and travel warrants and they just sent to the railway system and go home you know. We’ll contact you when you’re ready which was quite a few weeks. I think it was about five weeks and we, I got back to Tunbridge and by which time they hadn’t, they didn’t know that I’d made it and so when I walked down Priory Road, Tunbridge the last communication my father had got was a telegram saying that I was missing from night operations and there would be a letter to follow which he didn’t appear to have got. But they, they were quite convinced that I’d had it and then I put just put in an appearance. And it was the usual kind of festivities. My sister, two sisters were cooking and sitting me down and trying to stuff me with food that I couldn’t eat. Not that vast amount. But over a period of time I got back to normal and went back to the RAF and I ended up as understudy wing warrant officer at Cranwell College which was quite an experience. And that was it. From there I was demobbed and came back. There was no way that I was going to go back to being gentleman’s outfitters so I started doing, learning upholstery and started a business in Tonbridge which is still going to this day. As — SP: What’s that called? What’s your business called? What was it? AA: It’s called Botten and Andrews. I had a partner called Botten. Well, he, he’d, he’s died. His son is running the business now and he’s making quite a success of it and. Apart from the fact that I have no financial interests in it he still kept my name over the door. And that was the end of it. [recording paused] SP: Ok, Andy. Thanks for, for all that information there. So, you were talking about your base was Melbourne in Yorkshire. Do you want to tell me a little bit about — AA: Well, yeah, we were a wartime airfield dispersed with huts all, all the way around the perimeter of the airfield and we as a crew had a small hut which we, our two gunners who were senior in age to me, I was the youngest in the crew and they used to forage for fuel for the stove. And the local farmers they bartered their way into getting some eggs and stuff like that and we could do a bit of toast on this tortoise stove and one way or the other where you, as young men we had quite big appetites and although we were fed quite well in the mess but anyhow, we subsidised it with whatever we could get from local farmers and what have you. But as I say Melbourne was one of the few airfields that had FIDO which was fog dispersal and we used it because the two previous mine laying expeditions that we’d been on we’d taken off with the aid of FIDO because it was quite foggy. And the other big experience we had with FIDO was in ’44 just before Christmas lieutenant colonel, the film star, James Stewart came in with a flight of B17s and they had quite a time in the mess with us which was primitive by their standards but they thoroughly enjoyed it. And we used to go out to, if we had a stand down we’d, and there was time there was transport provided to go in to York which was round about twelve and a half miles from Melbourne to the centre of York and we’d chat up the local girls. And we went to a place, we used to go to a place called De Grey Rooms which is still there and they had dances and you used to totter in there after drinking in the local hostelries all evening and subject the local girls to our drunken whatever. Anyhow, the point is that we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves and at the end of the evening there was a small hut by York Station that used to keep open all night I think and you could get a mug of tea and a wad of, of roll with cheese in it and sit there and wait for members of your crew to turn up so that you could share a taxi to get back because you’d missed the last transport. The other thing was, talking of transport Wing Commander Shannon who was the CO of 10 Squadron he, somebody had picked up a bus from York and managed with their information which they must have gained through being either on the buses or mechanics they got it started and took everybody back to 10 Squadron which was quite good. But they parked it outside and he was, he had us in to the main briefing area and he said that he would get to the bottom of it and in the meantime he was going to smarten up the aircrew. No more would they be coming in to the mess for breakfast in their pyjamas underneath their battledress and he was going to have us trotting around the perimeter track to get fit. To make us a lot fitter than what we were. But anyhow, it didn’t really work and he had to give it up in the end. Hence the fact that one of the songs of 10 Squadron was a song that went to the best of my knowledge, “There’s A Flight and B Flight and C Flight you see. But the best of them all is the WT. Fly high. Fly low. Where every go, shiny 10 Squadron will give a good show. Now, old Wingco Shannon he raves and he shouts and he talks about things that he knows nothing about. Fly high. Fly low. Where ever you go, shiny 10 Squadron will give a good show.” And as I say, I think it goes on from there but that’s as much as I can remember and I can’t think of any more that I can tell you. I’m very glad that I got in to Bomber Command although I look back and think that we did a good job and it was great I won’t admit, I won’t admit to saying that I said a lot more religious prayers just before take-off on ops than what I’d ever thought that I would get around to and the feeling in the stomach before you got aboard was unbelievable. Anybody says that they flew over Germany and faced flak and night fighters and weren’t scared I don’t think they were ever there. But it was an experience that I wouldn’t have missed for the world. Well, I couldn’t have missed for the world. I was there and you did it. But I was very glad in hindsight that, that Bomber Command was the place where I’d like to be. So, thank you very much. SP: Yeah. Well, Andy, thank you on behalf of International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archives. I’d like to thank you for your amazing story and also we got some singing on there. AA: Yeah. Yeah. SP: Some amazing singing as well. AA: Yeah. SP: Ok. Well, thank you very much. AA: Yeah. [recording paused] SP: I’ll just check it rather retake it than drive all the way back down. AA: Well, quite. SP: But we’ll be fine, I’m sure. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Andy Andrews Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susanne Pescott Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AAndrewsPF170911, PAndrewsPF1701 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command License A legal document giving official permission to do something with the resource. CC BY-NC 4.0 International license Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Denmark Germany Great Britain England--Lancashire England--Lincolnshire England--Yorkshire Denmark--Copenhagen Germany--Hamburg Germany--Munich Germany--Nuremberg Germany--Oberursel Germany--Rostock Germany--Ruhr (Region) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1941 1944 1945-02-14 Description An account of the resource Andy Andrews worked in a gentleman's outfitters shop and volunteered for the Air Force in 1941. He trained at RAF Cardington and RAF Blackpool and, after crewing up, he flew operations with 10 Squadron from RAF Melbourne. He discusses the members of his crew and describes being shot down by a Ju 88 on his 19th operation during a mine laying operation. His pilot and navigator were both killed and he discusses how he and the rest of the crew baled out before their aircraft exploded. He landed in a field in Denmark badly wounded to the face and hands and was taken to a hospital. He had met some members of the resistance and was preparing to evade when he was captured by the Germans and became a prisoner of war. He discusses his medical treatment and interrogation and witnessing the lynching of an American airman during a forced march away from the advancing allied troops. After he was liberated he returned to Great Britain on board a Lancaster as part of Operation Exodus. His family had believed he was dead. After being demobilised he started his own business. Towards the end of the interview he talks about a visit to RAF Melbourne by the actor James Stewart, nights out in York, and Wing Commander Shannon, his Commanding Officer. He also sings a song about 'Shiny Ten Squadron'. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:48:09 audio recording Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke 10 Squadron 1663 HCU aircrew B-17 bombing crewing up Dulag Luft evading FIDO Halifax Halifax Mk 2 Halifax Mk 3 Heavy Conversion Unit Ju 52 Ju 88 lack of moral fibre lynching military living conditions mine laying Operation Exodus (1945) Operational Training Unit prisoner of war RAF Cardington RAF Cranwell RAF Melbourne RAF Rufforth Resistance shot down Stalag 7A training Wellington wireless operator https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/782/9304/MTroglioP[DoB]-180902-020001.jpg b75b1a37dfca326f57fd422b11a58e21 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/782/9304/MTroglioP[DoB]-180902-020002.jpg 179ced0b015f28915596bb78942713c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Troglio, Paolo and Bernabè, Angelo Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Troglio, P-Bernabe, A Description An account of the resource <p>40 items. The collection consists of the service and private papers of Paolo Troglio (b. 1921), an aviere of Regia Aeronautica later attached to the Luftwaffe. Paolo was stationed in Italy, France, Greece, Albania, and on the Russian Front where he became a prisoner of war. He escaped and was posted to a Luftwaffe logistic unit with the rank of Gefreiter. Toward the end of the war, back in Italy, Paolo became an informant for the Resistance, to which he passed military intelligence. The collection comprehends photographs of barracks, aircraft, airfields, ordnance, and his friends in informal settings. There is also correspondence exchanged between Paolo and his family, letters from the 'Italia' partisan brigade, and a pair of Deutsche Afrika Korps googles. The collection also include correspondence about a war damage claim lodged by Angelo Bernabè, whose daughter would later be married to Paolo.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p> <p>The collection was donated by Sara Troglio and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff, with the valuable assistance of the Archeologi dell'Aria research group (<a href="https://www.archeologidellaria.org">https://www.archeologidellaria.org</a>) and further identification provided by Claudio Gioia.</p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-09-02 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MTroglioP[DoB]-180902-02 Title A name given to the resource Paolo Troglio travel permit Description An account of the resource Travel permit issued to Paolo Troglio by the 'Italia' partisan brigade. It allows him to travel freely to Milan and asks other partisan groups to provide support. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1945-05-06 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Italy Italy--Po River Valley Italy--Milan Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1945-05 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One typewritten form Language A language of the resource ita Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Enzo Olivieri Italy. Comitato di Liberazione Nazionale. Brigata Italia Resistance https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/307/9640/PMooreWT1508.1.jpg 46d70c19f0283282b575e00c8060bca7 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/307/9640/AMooreWT150728.1.mp3 c01c152b10f0fbf9438d9f8a3ee5b0c3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Moore, Bill William Tait Moore William T Moore William Moore W T Moore W Moore Description An account of the resource Eight items. Three oral history interviews with William Tait "Bill" Moore (1924 - 2019, 1823072 Royal Air Force) and five photographs. He served as a navigator with 138 Squadron. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-28 2016-03-18 2016-07-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Interview Agreement Form - Moore, WT, William Moore-03 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Moore, WT Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document This is Andrew Sadler interviewing Mr. William (Bill) Moore at his home in Woking on Tuesday 28th July 2015 for the Bomber Command Archive. AS: Thank you Bill for allowing me to come and interview you. BM: You’re very welcome indeed. AS: Can I start with some background information, where and when were you born? BM: I was born in Dunoon in Scotland on 26th August 1924 AS: And um, can you tell me a bit about your family background? BM: My, my father was a regimental sergeant major in the Invergyle Southern Highlanders, my grandfather was a chief petty officer in the Navy, we’d twenty two children, I am one of a family of five and, um, I first got in touch with the, err, Royal Air Force as a cadet with the Air Cadet, Air Cadet Association, which was the forerunner of the Air Training Corps. AS: And presumably your father, was your father involved in the First World War? BM: Yes my father and my grandfather was in the First World War, my grandfather was also in the Boer War and he was also in the First and Second World War, and my father was in the First World War and he was called up for the Second World War to the Colours and, um, later stood down when the BEF went to France, and he later took over the, what became the Home Guard for the whole of the County of Argyle in Scotland. AS: Did he talk about his experiences in the First World War? BM: Yes he um, he was a Royal Scottish Fusiliers and um, he was in quite a number of the big, of the big battles, and, um, then he was taken, he was taken prisoner in late 1917 and he was shipped out to Poland then and, he was wounded in the legs, he was given very good treatment by the German, um, medical people at that time. AS: And how did you come to join up into the Royal Air Force? BM: Oh that was through the, the Air Cadets which was the forerunner of the Air Training Corps. The reason for that was I had been a drummer boy in the band of the Argyle’s and um, I fancied the Air Force after having two flights at a place called Montrose quite a long time before the war started. AS: Can I just stop what, - okay we are restarting now after closing the windows BM: Right AS: Noise outside, sorry you were telling me about how you came, you joined the Royal, the Air Cadet Force. BM: That’s right the Air Cadet Defence Couriers AS: And why did you do that, what made you interested in? BM: So it was after I had two flights we’er with the Argyles as a drummer boy in the Band at Montrose on the east coast of Scotland. AS: And that made you want to fly? BM: That’s quite correct. AS: So what year did you actually join up to the Royal Air Force? BM: Well for the, well it was 1940-41 when I was in the Air Defence Cadet Corps and then of course when the Air Training Corps started I joined that immediately and, err, on the Monday night I joined up and um, of course naturally I had no rank and then the Friday night of that week I was made a flight sergeant in the Air Training Corps, within one week. AS: And can you tell me how that came about? BM: Oh the experience of the Air Defence Cadet Corps, that was why. AS: So can you tell me about your training? BM: Oh the training in the, in the Air Training Corps. Yes the Air Training Corps we, um, we attended night school classes in the school along with students who were actually full time students of the school, also members of the Air Training Corps and this was taken by Mathematics teachers and English teachers all the way through, and they had become officers in the Air Training Corps, and one gentlemen Mr. Ozzy Broon, he was the maths teacher and very good in navigation and um, he made it all very, very interesting for us and, um, later on I met up with him but that will come into this later on, um, but he was a person who really gave us the foundation in navigation and bringing us up through math and made it interesting for us. AS: So what age were you at this time? BM: By that time I was sixteen. AS: And um, when you joined the Air Force could, you were immediately made a flight sergeant and what sort of work? BM: No that, no that was just the Air Training Corps I’m talking about, and that was made immediately. Now what happened was that um, we um, when I was, um, seventeen and a quarter I actually volunteered for the Royal Air Force and um, because of my background in the Air Training Corps I, um, had all certificates following examinations that was, um, especially orientated towards air crew, and with that I was selected at Edinburgh to actually join air crew formally and I was given the silver badge and um, became a member of the Royal Air Force on reserve which was actually the, um, Auxiliary Air Force. AS: And what year would that have been? BM: That was, that was beginning, the beginning of ‘42, ‘41-‘42 yes. AS: And can you tell me how you came to be in Bomber Command? BM: Well that’s quite a story, but I’ll cut it short as much as possible, we, we were invited to London to Lord’s Cricket Ground where we were given the medicals etcetera and passed all these things and tests, various inoculations etcetera, etcetera, and um, we were billeted at Avenue Close, um, and fed at the, at the Zoo there, and of course, um, after a few weeks we actually were sent to Scarborough where I, I joined number 17 flight, of the air crew selection, and um, that was at, that was the beginning of our formal training with the air crew, Royal Air Force, the Royal Air Force. They, um, that was when we conducted drill, navigation, signals, um, engines, everything that you had to do in preparation to become a member of air crew, but not a specialist at that time, you were given that particular course so that you could be able to fit in somewhere along the line, we were actually called PNB, pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, at that time. That’s what we were, PNB. We um, I had at that particular time I had a flight and that flight, it was a mixed flight of British, French, Belgians and we graduated, we graduated from there and were given various jobs around Scarborough until I was posted to Scoon, now at Scoon in Scotland that was where we got, we got training on Tiger Moths, and then from there, after that was we, we seemed to be doing all right, we were sent to Brougton in Furness where we, where we did a commando course on, in other words it was an escapees course. If anything happened and you were on the other side then you knew what to do to try and get away, and that was where my army training had come in very good and I was appointed a section leader. After that we were posted to, to Heaton Park, Manchester and that is where we were either billeted on homes around the perimeter of the park or actually in the park. Firstly we were actually on the perimeter with a family and, um, that lasted for about two weeks, and then for about three weeks we were actually billeted in Heaton Park in Manchester, and um, then of course we were given various courses etcetera, etcetera, and, um, during that , during that time you got selected for, for to go for training in different parts of the Commonwealth and Empire. At the beginning I was actually getting posted to go to Rhodesia and the reason we knew that was because of the kit that we were getting, not South Africa but Rhodesia. We got on board the ship in Liverpool and um, on the Mersey, and we got on, we got on board the ship there and, um, it happened to be a ship that I knew very well which was brand new at the beginning of the war and I’ve actually got a model of it here, and um, we, we set sail and, um, one evening I, I was presuming that we near the Bay of Biscay, I turned round and I said to my friend, Alec Kerr, I said ‘Alec this ship is going the wrong way’, he said ‘you and your [inaudible] navigation, how do you know?’ I said ‘I’m looking at the stars’ and we landed back up in Liverpool again, we presumed then of course that the word had got out, that was probably a fleet of U-Boats hovering round about the Bay of Biscay and um, they changed their mind about sending us on that ship, which was called the Andes [spells it out]. We got back into Liverpool and we were there about um, two days on board the Andes, and the next thing we were told that we were being transferred onto another ship and um, I looked across and there was a three funnel boat over there, and, I said to this chap Alec, Alec Kerr, I said ‘Alec that’s a five, three, four over there’ he said ‘what’s a five, three, four?’ I said ‘I’m not telling you that’s a secret’. Well the five, three, four was the Queen Mary, the five, three, four was the number that the Queen Mary had in John Brown’s yard in Scotland, in Glasgow when she was getting built. Anyway we got on board that ship and the next thing we knew that we were in New York and we were there overnight, and the next thing we knew we were on the train and we were bound, bound for Canada and we went all up the, the East Coast of Canada and we arrived at Moncton, New Brunswick, and that was the home station in Canada for air crew who were going to be training under the Commonwealth Air Training Scheme. We were there for ten or twelve days, um, not in winterwear as it was six months of the year in Canada, you get a lot of cold weather and um, they just said ‘oh we don’t know anything about you, we’ll get a message one of these days and we’ll give you some uniform’ , so we walked around there um, at one time I used to say like a [inaudible] nanny, but as I say, in Canada there we walked along like squaws because we covered ourselves in blankets to keep warm, but that was only, that was only a gimmick, once you were inside you were nice and warm. Eventually we got kitted out we with Rhodesian Air Force kit which was very good indeed, it was far superior and a lot more modern than what we had previously, for items like shirts the collars were attached instead of getting two collars with a shirt, the great coats were extremely different and the average cloth was a lot finer, anyways that was one of the good points that we had there. The next thing we knew was that we were, I’d say sent across country and um, that was to be going on to various stations now – this was where our actual training began and we had landed in Moncton and then from there, as I say, we travelled by train across to Dauphin, Manitoba, and Dauphin, Manitoba was just a little bit bigger than a village at that particular time but it was really getting populated with the Royal Air Force and the Royal Canadian Air Force, and um, that is where we had bombing and gunnery courses on Ansons and Bolingbrokes. The Bolingbrokes, of course, was the Canadian/ American version of the Blenheim Mark IV which was a very good aircraft. We graduated from there and we went from there to aye, err, Portage la Prairie, Portage la Prairie, I’ve got photographs here and there we are at Portage la Prairie which is, and was, and still is today, one of the major stations of the Royal Canadian Air Force. I said today because I have met wing commanders and group captains who have just recently been in charge of Portage la Prairie, and that is where we did the Air Observer School, that was Air Observer School Number 7 which is navigation etcetera, etcetera, and that was on Ansons and Cranes. We, err, we had a mixed bunch there of New Zealanders, Canadians, and British and we actually graduated from there and um, that is the photograph of it there see. AS: And you’re on the front row, second from the left. BM: That’s right [laughs] yeah. That is when I became an air observer, the air observer, of course, has got another name but in this interview I won’t say what it was called. AS: You told me before. BM: [Laughs] that’s exactly what it was, yes. Anyway, as far as we were concerned we err - AS: I think could I, could I maybe I could say it BM: Yes AS: For the record you were known as the flying arseholes. BM: That’s quite correct [laughs], that is quite correct, yes. Now um, with that, we were, we were given our wings there and that was a great occasion because we were made up to sergeants which was, the lowest rank by that time that you could have as air crew. Quite a lot of people don’t understand and don’t know was that right through, for a couple of years the war was on, there was fellow air crew were either AC2’s or AC1’s or LAC, leading aircraftsman and it was only after a while that the rank of sergeant was introduced for minimum rank for aircrew, there’s quite a number of people never knew about that but um, having come through the air cadets etcetera, etcetera, we knew people who were actually flying in operations who were leading aircraftsman and had done quite a number of operations as such and were never recognised as anything else. If they got shot down they never got promotion, they were still at the end of the war leading aircraftsmen. Then um, from Portage la Prairie, um, we got a jaunt down, down to America, I think it was just a matter of, they didn’t know what to do with us for a while and we went down to Florida, and we were flying on Catalina Flying Boats and doing maritime navigation which, from a place called Pensacola. We were there a few weeks and the next thing we knew we were back to Moncton, New Brunswick in Canada, and of course there wasn’t six feet of snow this time, it was a lovely spring cum summer day in Canada. We, we were there for just a few weeks and um, we were told we could have two kit bags and we said ‘why two kit bags?’, ‘well one kit bag you can travel with and if you get a flight back to the UK then that other kit bag will be sent on to you later on’. I was quite happy in one way, I didn’t need to fly back, I got on board a ship and then we were taken from Moncton, New Brunswick to Halifax, Nova Scotia. And when we got to Nova Scotia I recognised the ship and I said to my friend, I said ‘oh I don’t like that one’ and he said ‘why is that Bill?’ I said ‘because that’s the Empress of Japan’, he said ‘what!’, I said ‘yeah that’s the Empress of Japan’. Anyway we got on the ship and by that time it was called the Empress of Scotland, they had changed its name during the war from the Empress of Japan to the Empress of Scotland, and we boarded that and we were put onto D deck which is a long way down and um, when we, we tried to get up for the, for the boat drill for emergencies we found that we were only halfway up, so anyway we thought of a plan. If there is going to be an emergency and they want us up on deck why don’t we try and get a place to sleep on deck because it was summertime, anyway we weren’t allowed that. Anyway we eventually landed in the Clyde and from the Clyde we, we got on the train and we went to Harrogate in Yorkshire, and we were held at Yorkshire, in Harrogate for a short time and um, from there I was sent over to Halfpenny Green. Now Halfpenny Green was a mixed unit it was, a normal navigation advanced school for navigators so and there was also an advanced school navigating on, what will I say, um, yeah, this was to become a specialist on map reading, not just normal navigation a specialist on navigation by map reading and that was the section that I was detailed for. When I asked the ‘chiefy’ why I was a chosen, he said ‘why’ he says ‘because we found out that you’re a country boy’, ‘Oh,’ I said ‘that’s nice’, he said ‘also you’ve been around quite a bit’, I said ‘oh thank you very much’. Anyway, ‘chiefy’, the reason I called him ‘chiefy’ was because he was a flight sergeant and the reason you called them a ‘chiefy’ was because when the Royal Air Force and the Naval Service had been amalgamated during the First World War, a lot of the people from the Naval side came across and they were Chief Prison err, Chief um, Chief Petty Officers and they were the chaps who became the first flight sergeants in the Royal Air Force and the name ‘chiefy’ has been there ever since, ‘cos’ if you called someone a ‘chiefy’ today they wonder what the hell you are talking about, but anyway we could often make a few bets on that one, that’s on the side. But Halfpenny Green, we were flying there on the advanced Ansons, Mk V Ansons, which um, had completely closed bombing doors etcetera, etcetera, and of course it was ideal for map reading because your maps weren’t getting thrown about in the lower part of the cockpit when you are trying to do the map reading, but we didn’t realise why it was done, but in the Air Force, once you joined up, you volunteered ever after that, you did what you was told. Right now, I managed to go through that course, came through with very good marks and um, I was then posted to Desborough, um, at Desborough. We were crewed up and that was part of a Wellington crew and um, also flying there I was flying as second dickie, in other words we only had one pilot and um, I got the job within the crew of being the person to be able to, err, take off and land and of course do a bit of flying in between, in case of emergency I could always land the Wellington. That was because of the position and the type of training that we had got in the past. Now from, from Desborough we um, we were transferred to various stations and where I went to, I went to a place called Tempsford. Now Tempsford was one of Churchill’s most secret aerodromes, airfields, when you got there you had to, you had to sign the Official Secret Act which was slightly different from the one that you normally took. In other words this was top secret, anything you said outside of that aerodrome you could be held responsible, and taken into custody, or shot, if it was got the wrong way. The reason for that that came up during your last week of being at Tempsford. Now at Tempsford we, we were crewing with various people, the reason I say that is because being an observer from time to time I wasn’t with the, the same, same pilot, although for some time I was with a chap called Neil Noble and also with err, a young PO who was a chap called Murray, anyway that was very good indeed. Noble was from New Zealand, and err, he was an excellent chap and he was also a country boy and he was excellent for the type of flying that we were doing and likewise was Murray. Now what happened was that during that time at Tempsford that is where we did flying of taking people out and into France, quite often it was on, it was on Lysanders and you didn’t have much room in Lysanders because err, it being a small one engine aircraft and you were flying low and you were actually taking these people into France. It wasn’t the first time that we had to bring people back from France and on various occasions, the group had actually brought back four gentleman who later on became Premiers of France and they actually also were leading lights in the resistance movement, what we called the Maquis. Now one of the things that happened at Tempsford was that um, we later on had an aircraft and this aircraft was called a Hudson, now that Hudson was an aircraft, American one, which was designed to land on the prairies in America. It was heavily undercarriaged and it was ideal for what we did, it was a way from the Lysander with the single engine and was a twin engine aircraft and what was happening there was that we were carrying a lot of heavy goods for the Maquis. That was the bombs, sticky bombs, all sorts of bombs like that, grenades, ammunition, weapons, oh up to medium sized weapons which they could use without using vehicles to carry them about. Now there was one particular trip when we were on the Hudson and we were on one of the airfields that had been selected by the Maquis, now what had happened was the Maquis people, quite a number of them, had been brought over to the UK and they were given special training as to get airfields that we could land in, the idea being was that the drop zones or picking up and laying down of agents, and it was essential that they were kept on this secret list ‘cos only a few minutes normally that we were on the ground. On this particular occasion what happened was that we came into land and we landed very well, we got to top of the, I call it run section, we turned round and as we turned round we began to sink in the mud, well it felt like mud to us, I suppose it was only a wet piece of ground, and we sank down, and um, I said to the skipper, ‘oh were in trouble’, he said ‘oh we’ll get off all right’, so anyway the Maquis arrived and they got all their stuff out and um, the leading agent there was a lady and she cleared an area, got all the Maquis away and we were ready to take off and then we realised that we couldn’t get out the mud, or whatever it was. So anyway we were about ready for to put the bomb in the air trap and blow it up and then get the hell out of there, but anyway she said ‘no’ she said, ‘we think we’ll get you out of there all right’ and she got the people from a nearby village to come to try and help us out because they were on their way up they met what they call the German sergeant who was in charge of the village and he said ‘right where are you people going?’, ‘oh your big black aircraft, your big black aircraft is on the ground there and if we don’t get it out of the mud the Gestapo is going to shoot us and they’ll shoot you as well’. So his retort was back to hers was that he would look after the village, they could go and get the aircraft out, so anyway the people got all sorts of equipment and we managed to take off again, that was the longest that we were ever on the ground until a few years later, it certainly felt like hours and hours and hours but was, it was just over an hour and a quarter on the ground which was an extremely long period and we got away. AS: Was this work part of what was known as part of the Special Operations Executive? BM: We were working with the SOE, yes that’s exactly what we were doing. Now that was one of the moments where various escapades like that but that that was the one of the longest times on the ground. Quite often we landed in a field and of course one or two of the fields had been used in the past for gliders but of course nobody had been near them in years, not even the Germans had used them and that was why they, the Maquis, had actually selected them for us, and they had um, they hadn’t done any work on them as such just hoping that the odd tree stump or that, that we landed in was, would be avoided which they were quite good. There was quite often a brush, as we called it, on the ground but we managed to sweep that aside when you are landing and take off. Now the thing about that was that um, the area dropping and picking up and laying down of agents was essentially an extreme secret list and only a few minutes were allowed between knowing the target area and the take off and only the crew members concerned knew exactly where. As little contact as possible was allowed between any agents and the crew, I don’t care what people say, Americans and different books nowadays I will call them ‘Joes’, as far as we were concerned we had as little contact as possible so that if anything happened to them or happened to us we couldn’t divulge anything and neither could they, because later on Hitler had said that anybody with knowledge of the situation would be shot as spies, so as little contact as possible was allowed between any agents and the crews. The airfield contacts or landings were seldom used again and again, although there were one of two were very suitable among them was Paris and Chateauroux and various other ones, these were the favourite ones that they were ones that were used quite a few times. AS: When you were working, when you were on those flights you were acting as an observer? BM: An observer yes. AS: And what was the role of the observer? BM: An observer was, it was a navigator but also you did everything, you did everything. AS: So, you were a backup if something? BM: That’s right. The observer learnt to fly, that was one of the other things an observer did, later on of course that was taken over by, on the bigger aircraft, by the flight engineer, but in the early days that was the observer that did that, aye. Now later on, later on during the war once it became apparent with the advance of the allies in France, the role of 138 Squadron and 161 Squadron was diminishing so what happened then was that 138 Squadron we went back to Bomber Command and with that we went to Langar where we actually um, we actually flew on Lancasters and then the Lancasters and then of course we were, I’d say we were part and parcel of the Bomber Command operations and that was from Tuddenham, and at Tuddenham we lay alongside 90 Squadron which was one of the main, main squadrons that occupied Tuddenham right through during the war. AS: And what year was that, that you became part of Bomber Command? BM: That was beginning that was the beginning of ‘44-‘45 and that was from, we started there, the actual squadron according, according to the history, was that everything came into being in March of 1945 but of course it was long before that we were [inaudible] but that’s just from the history books. Later the events all changed and we were sent to Langar to receive conversant to Lancasters, which turned out to be the light of my life as the aircraft which was the one that I favoured best, and from Langar we went to Feltwall, Mildenhall, Methwold, and Stradishall for other special duty training and eventually to Tuddenham. We took part in many of the operations but on the big one to Potsdam our Wing Commander Murray took over as captain of the night. Now that Wing Commander Murray was a pilot officer that I flew with, aye, early in my career with 138 Squadron and he became eventually the, the squadron leader, wing commander for 138 squadron, he took charge of that. Along came the Operation Manna which gave us great pleasure in being part of and likewise to Juvincourt where we brought home many of our fellow air crew members who had been prisoners of war, and after a few weeks of PRDU work at Tuddenham we were allowed to transfer to RAF Benson where we took over our own Lancasters and became part of the operating across Europe and photographing the whole of Europe for um, the secret stations that Churchill had wanted when he was Prime Minister. So that was there crew there, the other air crew in Bomber Command where we did all our operations. AS: And were you still working as an observer at this stage? BM: Yes, yes AS: You were still an observer? BM: Aye AS: And this is your crew next to a Lancaster? BM: Yes, that’s the crew that we eventually had, yes. AS: And which one is you Bill? BM: [laughs] Probably go with the height you’ll maybe get me, [laughs] can you recognise me? AS: I think you are the one on the left on that side on the right. BM: Yes that’s me [laughs], that there the tallest one actually became the rear gunner . AS: And were you always with the same crew? BM: Once we, once we got to Tuddenham we were all with the same crew yes. AS: So these are the same, so this is the same people? BM: That’s right yeah. AS: And obviously you all made it through the war? BM: Oh yes. AS: ‘Cos a lot did not. BM: No, that is quite correct we were lucky. AS: So when you were on the bombing raid can you tell me exactly what your role would have been? BM: Oh we were, there were two things so we acted as a full navigator and sometimes as an electronic navigator and also a bomb aimer as well ‘cos we were qualified to do all these jobs. AS: So you moved from one role? BM: One role to another yeah. AS: To another. BM: In our crew everybody could do everything else except on the Lancasters. The skipper Neil Noble and, and myself were doing the flying, and also our flight engineer ‘cos he only joined us on the Lancasters ‘cos when we were flying in the Wellingtons and that we didn’t have, we didn’t have a flight engineer. The flight engineer were only brought on when we started with the Stirlings and Halifaxes and then the Lancasters. AS: Can you tell me what it was like to fly the Lancasters as opposed to the Wellingtons? BM: Oh yes, it was a much easier aircraft to fly than even the Wellingtons and the Wellington was a good one to fly. AS: In what way was it easier? BM: Well the, the, the controls were simpler, it was easier to control them than it was some of the former aircraft. AS: And can you describe the procedure when you went on a bombing raid? BM: Right, well what happened was once you were crewed and once you had done a few operations like mine laying and things like that, minor operations and then of course you were selected by crews that you moved up the ladder a bit and then of course you were formally taken on to the, I would say, the senior strength of the squadron, but our squadron did not like to put rookie crews onto the heavy stuff at first, you got a baptism of fire by, as I say, doing the mine laying jobs and various other ones which you weren’t so likely to have been involved in heavy enemy fire etcetera, etcetera. We were thankful for that because you were given that training and there was actually training in the actual thing. So what happened was that once you, once you were there then of course you had briefings where the whole crew was together, then of course you had briefings where there was selected sections of the aircrew, mainly the pilot, navigator, and quite often the flight engineer and radio operator were involved. When we were doing special duties with Lancaster’s we had the whole crew together ‘cos we felt as if everybody should know exactly what’s going on and not be a surprise to anybody with what we were doing because quite often there was raids that was known to only a section of a squadron and sometimes a full squadron, whereas if it wasn’t a joint operations with the other squadrons, or the other squadron are out and you lay down so that was how it went, but you were actually given as much information as possible about the targets, about where you were going, the flight, the enemy aircraft etcetera, etcetera. AS: How many missions did you fly with Bomber Command? BM: About thirty six. AS: That was quite a lot wasn’t it? BM: Yes it was quite a lot. AS: It sounds as if you were lucky to pull through because? BM: I was extremely lucky, I was extremely lucky, because with 138 Squadron we had, we had quite a [long pause, shuffling papers], with 138 Squadron, 138 Squadron had taken in nine hundred and ninety five agents, they’d taken in twenty nine thousand containers and they’d taken in over ten thousand packages. We lost seventy aircraft and three hundred aircrew, our motto was ‘for freedom’, that was 138 Squadron you know. AS: Yes you had different people on different stations? BM: Right, now also what did happen was that with 138 Squadron we had a flight of Poles, Polish chaps. Now what happened with them was that they was declared by the German forces that if the Poles were shot down they were to be treated as spies, so I didn’t like the idea of that and all the ones on our flight I taught them a bit of Gaelic, I gave them little addresses from on all the outer isles on the west of Scotland and I gave them Scottish names, and I told them if they got shot down they would have to use them as identification plus their rank and number, and I, ‘cos I do know that quite a number of them actually survived like that because they pretended to be Scottish, Gaelic, and where they pointed to on the map was where they came from and it was a real island but I gave them all different islands, and of course when they were on the squadron if they spoke to anybody they had to say who they were and not who they were in Polish. AS: And why the Poles singled out for special harsh treatment? BM: Oh because their country had been occupied by the Germans. They took it that they were, if they did that they were actually against them that was the end of it. AS: Mmm, when you um, when you were flying with Bomber Command how often, you said you had thirty six missions, how far apart were they, were you? BM: Well sometimes you might be on three nights in a row, sometimes it might be two, two in one week, but it was surprising just how much, just how of course some operations like mine laying and things like that were considered quite minor ones so you probably fitted them in in between times. AS: And went you weren’t actually flying when you were on the ground how did you occupy your time? BM: We kept ourselves fit, we played a lot of squash or we played a lot of rugby that was the two things we did as a crew because we could play together, and we were together, we were a crew. AS: And when you were not flying you stuck together as a BM: As a crew yes. We used to have, in the Nissen huts, we normally had two crews to the hut and we pretty well stuck together. AS: And what sort of conditions were you living in, was it, were they good conditions or? BM: Well, well when we were one squadron there was err, there was a Nissen hut set of accommodation which was two crews, as I say two crews about fourteen men to a hut and a potbelly stove in the middle and then of course your, your, your mess and that on the squadron was a Nissen type building. There was one or two squadrons which were peacetime ones, the RAF Benson was a peacetime one and there’s still peacetime one, but Methwold and quite a few of these other ones were established pre-war and the accommodation was slightly better, but anything that was rushed up during the war time was normally the Nissen huts. AS: Now after the war, what, how did you, what happened after the war? BM: Well what happened after the war, like what I said earlier on, was that we did some PRDU work from Tuddenham. AS: What’s PRDU work? BM: That’s Post RAF Reconnaissance. AS: Ah. BM: What we didn’t realise it was like a programme to see if we were suitable to do the job and there was three crews were picked, three, with their aircraft and we were sent over to RAF Benson and we then came under PRDU people there and, err, we photographed the whole of Europe, north to south and east to west, and we photographed the likes of the city of London, and other big cities from two thousand feet. Towns like Woking and this area would be from about five-six thousand feet and um, then the general countryside was anything from ten to twenty thousand feet, and we did that for the whole of Europe. We also had bases all over the country and also had bases in Norway, bases in South of France and various places like that, so what we actually did was that at one time, one time we landed at one, one particular station and it had been used as a transit camp and we woke up in the morning scratching like hell and we found out we had scabies so of course that was us isolated. We go back to our own station and we were isolated by the, by the medical people until we got rid of it, and then we, what we said, wherever we went after that we took our own kit with us so we didn’t get scabies. AS: And this would have been after 1945 you were doing this? BM: Yes AS: And how long did you stay in the RAF for? BM: Middle of 1946. AS: And, and what did you do after you left? BM: Well I went back into the building industry, and um, it wasn’t that long before I went to Rhodesia where I was supposed to have gone with the with the Royal Air Force and the idea there was that a federation was starting up between Nyasaland, Northern Rhodesia and Southern Rhodesia, and um, I went out there and I went out as a general building foreman, and instead of staying four years with the company that I worked for I stayed fifty years. I built schools, universities, colleges, hundreds of local houses, all over the territories, and then of course gradually it worked out that Rhodesia was the only one that didn’t get its independence, Nyasaland 1963, Nyasaland was given independence then and became Malawi, and more or less at the same time Northern Rhodesia, which had been a Crown Colony run from Britain, they also had theirs, but Southern Rhodesia, which became Rhodesia, had been a self-governing colony since 1926 and they were not granted independence. And what happened was in 1926 there had been a vote there to say if whether they were going to pick up as a province in South Africa or stay as Rhodesia as an independent self-governing colony and the vote was to stay as Rhodesia self-governing colony, so if they’d had went the other way it would have been a province of South Africa. AS: So what year did you come back to the United Kingdom? BM: I only came back twelve years ago. AS: Oh gosh. So have you, after the end of the war have you kept in contact with your crew mates? BM: Oh yes, well I’ll tell you what, Jimmy Dugg, his great grandson is Israel Dugg who played full back for the All Blacks against the Springboks on Saturday and various other ones. AS: So you kept in contact with them? BM: Oh yes. AS: Did you, um, I mean after the war? BM: What happened in Rhodesia, put it this way what happened there was that I had, in the short term, I had reinstated the family business in the building trade, I found out that the contracts were not being run honestly as far as I was concerned and that’s when I said to my brothers ‘you can have the company I’m going abroad’, I had thoughts for Canada, I had thoughts for Australia, I had thoughts for New Zealand, and at the time they wanted people to go to what was going to become the Central African Federation, um, and that’s where I decided to go to. I had no regrets, no regrets at all. I was there from 1952-53 right up until I came here, came back here and that was in 2003, but during that time, as I said before, I built schools and hospitals and other things all the way through. I even, in 1960 the Queen Mother had come out previously and laid the foundation stone of the hospital in Blantyre, Nyasaland which she named the Queen Elizabeth Hospital then she came back in 1960 and declared it open, now of course it wasn’t just a hospital it was like a major township around the hospital that we built that what took us so long, anyway what did happen when we had a ball at Zumba, the capital, after she had declared it open etcetera, etcetera, and the following the morning the Governor, Glynn Jones came to me and said ‘I’ve got a job for you’ I said ‘No, no, no I don’t need no freebies sir’, he said ‘it’s for the old lady’, I said ‘what’s that’, he said ‘I want you to build a racecourse for her,’ I said ‘what! I don’t know anything about building racecourses’, he said ‘go and find a plan somewhere’ he says ‘I want you to build a racecourse for her’, I said ‘all right how long have I got?’ he said ‘you’ve got ten days’. So anyway I got my own crew which was about fifty-sixty chaps and I went along to Zumba Prison and I got hundred bandits from there, short term bandits, and I asked for all the ones who had been Queen Victoria men, or King George men, or Kind Edward men, people like that and I got volunteers and I looked after them. I said they would be rewarded which they were, properly and kindly, etcetera, etcetera, and we did the job, and instead of what you do today, putting up things in canvas, I did it all in pole and thatch, and um, she, what happened is that she went on the Ilala which is the ship that plies up and down Lake Nyasa, and Lake Nyasa is three hundred and sixty five miles long and fifty two miles wide and there are various ports along it that the Ilala used to either go into or stand off and it used to take cattle, people passengers, VIP’s everything, there were ten or twelve cabins on it so it wasn’t a small one. It was actually built in, in Scotland and taken out in pieces to a place called Monkey Bay where it was put back together again and floated on Lake Nyasa and she has been going there ever since [laughs]. AS: Excellent. Can I um [end] Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Moore. One Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Andrew Sadler Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-07-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:10:53 Audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMooreWT150728 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Polskie Siły Powietrzne Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Description An account of the resource William Moore was born in Dunoon, Scotland in August 1924 and joined the Royal Air Force after spending some time in the Air Cadet Defence Corps and in the Air Training Corps. He volunteered for the Royal Air Force at the age of 17 and completed his training in Canada, after which he qualified as an air observer. William flew Ansons and Cranes and learned navigation in America on Catalina flying boats. He also tells of flying Lysanders and transporting agents for the Special Operations Executive into France. He also tells how he provided Polish airmen with different information to keep them safe if they crashed. William flew various aircraft including the Lancaster, Stirlings and Halifaxes at different locations and was on 36 operations with Bomber Command, taking part in Operation Manna. He served with 138 Squadron and 161 Squadron. He also tells of his life after the war, when he went to live in Rhodesia where he helped to run the family business before returning to Great Britain in 2003. [Please note: The veracity of this interview has been called into question. We advise that corroborative research is undertaken to establish the accuracy of some of the details mentioned and events witnessed.] Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain United States France Germany Netherlands England--Bedfordshire England--Suffolk England--Staffordshire Zimbabwe Africa--Lake Nyasa Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maureen Clarke 138 Squadron 161 Squadron Advanced Flying Unit aerial photograph aircrew Anson Catalina flight engineer Halifax Hudson Lancaster Lysander navigator observer Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945) Photographic Reconnaissance Unit RAF Benson RAF Desborough RAF Halfpenny Green RAF Heaton Park RAF Tempsford RAF Tuddenham reconnaissance photograph Resistance Special Operations Executive Stirling training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/696/10099/ABarryM180328.mp3 685bd2ff7c80e944fadba8d0a307fd94 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Barry, Max M Barry Description An account of the resource Three items. An oral history with Max Barry (419764 Royal Australian Air Force) his log book, and crew photograph. After training, he flew 7 operations on Lancaster with 463 Squadron before being shot down and becoming a prisoner of war. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Max Barry and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Barry, MR Requires A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence. Daniel Richards Max Barry was born in Beaufort, Victoria, Australia in 1924. His parents had a dairy farm at Colac which Max grew up on. Max was fortunate enough to be one of two hundred young people who got a scholarship from the Victorian Department of Education. This required him to become a teacher in the Education Department of Victoria. His family funds at the time, were fairly limited and his parents were very pleased that Max had this extra scholarship which provided books and certain other things. So, when he finished his schooling at seventeen and a half, Max became a student teacher and was teaching at Cressy. This was a two teacher school, and Max was the student teacher waiting to go to Training College in Melbourne. When Max got to age eighteen, like most young men at the time he wanted to learn to fly so he applied to become a Reserve aircrew person and duly joined the Air Force in September 1942. Max ended up as an air gunner at a Gunnery School at West Sale in Victoria. They used to have two Fairey Battles. One towed a drogue so that it had it yards behind. And the other aircraft had the pilot and the trainee gunner who flew alongside where the drogue was and had to aim at the drogue. You aimed at the drogue so you learned to use a gun, machine gun in in the air and you became a gunner. Max then went to England after he had reached nineteen years of age. He set sail from Adelaide. There were about six hundred personal on a ship called the Denbighshire. It was a cargo ship and the decks had been cleared out and everyone had hammocks to sleep in at night and rolled them up in the daytime. The ship sailed alone, across to New Zealand, then to Panama and then on to Bristol in England. Once Max arrived in England he was sent down to Brighton, and from there up to Lichfield, 27 OTU and formed crews. The crewing up process was quite interesting in that they put a hundred young Air Crew in a room in five categories, twenty of each and said, ‘Crew yourselves up. We’ll be back in two hours.’ Everyone wandered around and found four other people to join to make a crew for a Wellington. Max’s Bomb Aimer was also from Melbourne, with the other three crew members from Queensland. The crew became very close. In the crews you had to really know the other people and trust them because everybody depended on each other and they became very close. The crew then went off to do training at Church Broughton which was a satellite of Lichfield and trained in a Wellington. And from there they were converted to a Stirling aircraft. And they gathered two more crew members. A flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner. From there they then converted to a Lancaster and went to Lanc Finishing School which was at Syerston. And from there to a squadron. 463 at Waddington. Arriving there in late May ’44. At this time, the big effort of Bomber Command was to make life difficult for the Germans to bring up troops and equipment to the Normandy area where the landing was to take place shortly after. On D-Day morning for example the crew had been to the coast of Normandy bombing German gun emplacements and then they were flying back west of Cherbourg and Max looked up the Channel and there were five thousand ships there. About four nights later on, on the 10th, 11th of June the crews mission was to Orléans to bomb railway yards. Then as they were flying home after dropping their bombs, west of, or north of the Le Mans area. Suddenly Max saw great sheets of flame coming past his turret. His Lancaster was on fire. The controls became difficult for the pilot and the engineer to handle. The pilot told the two gunners to get out of their turrets and throw overboard anything, they could to lessen the weight of the aircraft because they were losing height fairly quickly. The Lancaster became impossible to control for the pilot, and it looked as if they would either crash or have too ditch in to the Atlantic if they kept going. The pilot told the crew to bail out, which they did. The two gunners were standing near the rear hatch which was open and the mid-upper gunner was the first out. He had to, according to instructions sit there facing backwards and roll sideways. He did sit there and didn’t fall out so Max had to give him a shove, so he fell out. Max sat there and tried to do the same but without success. The centrifugal force was holding him back, but fortunately he had grown up on a farm using slip rails and whatever. Max was quite capable of going through them so I quickly got back in to the fuselage and faced forward and rolled through the door, clear and floated down in the dark. This was his first parachute jump, at the count of ten max pulled the rip cord, and floated down. The first thing he knew he was near the ground, was when the tree branches came past his face. It was pitch black. You couldn’t see anything. But max landed safely. The crew had difficulty getting out of the Lancaster, Max was the last one to jump out of the plane. The bomb aimer who was first out saw the aircraft crash, unfortunately the pilot didn’t manage to get out. After getting down in the dark Max gathered his parachute together, and stuffed it under some bushes. Then he started to walk off north, towards the invasion. Max had an escape kit which included a compass and some food. Max knew some French from high school, so could talk to the local farmers and get food and swapped his uniform for farm clothes. Old farm clothes. So then he could walk in daylight as long as he kept away from the Germans. Max walked north for three weeks and came to a village of six houses. He could hear the front not too far away, he found a French family who were friendly and initially got some milk to drink and then the lady was obviously friendly. She could see I was a stranger so I told her that I was an English airman on the run. I didn’t mention Australian because that didn’t mean a lot to people in Europe. Max talked for a while and then the lady said, that he could hide in a barn on their farm which was about a kilometre away and told him how to get there. Max hid upstairs in an old barn, on the farm and used to be left out some food each night. And a week on the farm a lad who worked on it, came down early in the morning and said, ‘Get out quickly. The Germans are in the village.’ Max took off in a hurry and was about a few fields away before two German Army men said, ‘Halten halt,’ and then, ‘Papier.’ Max had no papers. He was immediately arrested, marched up to the local town which was La Ferriere-Harang, and then questioned there by the Army. It was accepted that he was an airman on the run, due to the little metal discs, Identity discs that the Air Force used. He was then passed over to the Luftwaffe people who then took him to Oberursel, near Frankfurt which was a big interrogation centre for airmen. After questioning and being photographed and fingerprinted he moved to Bankau. The Stalag Luft 7 for NCO airmen, and went there with other people, other similar men. On the way he received a Red Cross parcel of clothing and toilet gear. . Max arrived in the camp at Bankau on the 5th of August ’44, and initially he was in small hut. These were temporary huts. The camp had only started in June, and Russian prisoners were building bigger barracks with rooms of bunks for the POW for winter accommodation and they moved in to them in October. Towards the end of ’44 as the Red Army marched west the camp was alerted that they might have to move prisoners, prisoners in Polish camps might have to move to Germany. It began a very miserable journey because the POW had very little food and little shelter on the way. The second night the POW were marched forty-two kilometres, it was minus thirteen degrees’ temperature. After about three weeks on the road they were at a place called Goldberg and there they were all crammed in to train trucks. About fifty five or so people per truck, standing room only and they had been given food for two days but no water and then the journey started, for three days to Luckenwalde, about fifty kilometres south of Berlin. They ended up in a new camp in Luckenwalde. They had a big hall like building that they were in. Four hundred men in that room. They had straw on the floor to sleep on and they had enough room for yourself to lie down and maybe a walkway here and there. It was better that way because when we were in a barn if we were lucky to have a barn we would take it in turns to sleep in the middle because the one in the middle was warm. Max stayed at the camp in Luckenwalde for three or four weeks. One day an American war correspondents came in a jeep, with big white stars on it and, they called at the camp to pick up one of their friends who was also a war correspondent. The Americans arranged trucks to take the POW out, because they were only about forty miles from the Elbe River which was the boundary between American and Russian troops. A few days’ later ambulances did come and took the sick people away for the hospital and then a few days later a whole lot of American trucks came early in the morning. By the lunchtime Max was wondering if it would be possible to go into these trucks. Word came around that they were not going to be able to take everyone out, so quite a lot of people started to walk down the road towards the American line, which was forty miles away. Max eventually got to Brussels and then flew back to England on a Douglas DC3 After the war Max enrolled on a 5-year vet training course and married soon after graduating. He kept in touch with some of his aircrew and later went to Normandy to find the people who were kind to him during the war. The friendship has continued. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document JH: This interview is being conducted for the IBCC. International Bomber Command Centre Oral History Project. My name is John Horsburgh. I’m the interviewer and today I’m interviewing Max Barry. The interview is taking place at Mr Barry’s house in Port Kembla, New South Wales and it’s the 28th of March 2018. Good afternoon, Max. This is a real pleasure to be able to interview you this afternoon. Perhaps we can start with when and where you were born and a bit about your family background. For example, were your parents involved in the First World War and so on? So, Max, over to you. MB: I was born in Beaufort, Victoria and grew up at Elliminyt which is near Colac, Victoria. My parents had a dairy farm at Colac and that’s where I grew up and attended school. Primary school at Elliminyt and high school at Colac. JH: What, what did you have in mind to do after school? Presumably you hadn’t decided to join up at that stage. MB: Well, I’d been fortunate enough to be one of two hundred young people who got a scholarship from the Victorian Department of Education and that required me to become a teacher in the Education Department of Victoria. The funds of course at that time were fairly limited and my parents were very pleased that I had this extra scholarship which provided books and certain other things. So, when I finished my schooling at seventeen and a half I became a student teacher and was teaching at Cressy. A two teacher school and I was the student teacher waiting to go to Training College in Melbourne. But of course, as I got to age eighteen I was going to be called up and like most young fellas at the time I wanted to learn to fly so I’d applied to become a Reserve aircrew person and duly joined the Air Force in September that year. 1942. And that began my training which I ended up as a gunner, air gunner and then went to England after I reached nineteen years of age. We left from Adelaide. There were about six hundred of us in a ship called the Denbighshire. It was a cargo ship and the decks had been cleared out and we had hammocks to sleep in at night and rolled them up in the daytime. We went alone across to New Zealand, then to Panama and then to Bristol in England all by ourselves. Once we arrived in England we were sent down to Brighton and from there up to Lichfield, 27 OTU and formed crews. The crewing up process was quite interesting in that they put say a hundred young fellas in a room in five categories, twenty of each and said, ‘Crew yourselves up. We’ll be back in two hours.’ So we wandered around and found four other people to join, make a crew for a Wellington. That was it. JH: So, did you look for the pilot first or was he looking for a gunner first? How did it kind of all work out? MB: I can’t remember exactly but I think I might have met up with the bomb aimer. He was a Melbourne fellow. He was a Victorian. The other three were Queenslanders. JH: So, you were all Australians in — MB: Yes. JH: In the hangar. MB: Yes. And we formed a crew and became very close. In the crews you had to really know the other people and trust them because everybody depended on each other and we became very close. And we then went off to do training at Church Broughton which was a satellite of Lichfield and trained in a Wellington. And from there we were converted to a Stirling aircraft. Four engines. And gathered two more crew members. A flight engineer and a mid-upper gunner. And from there we converted to a Lancaster and went to Lanc Finishing School which was at Syerston, I think. And from there to a squadron. 463 at Waddington. Arriving there in late May ’44. JH: Max, Max what sort of training did you do as as a gunner? I see there’s mention of Gunnery School. How did that actually work? How can you train to be a tail gunner? MB: Well, the Gunnery School that I went to was at West Sale in Victoria and they used to have two aircraft. I think they were Fairey Battles. One towed a drogue so he had it yards behind. And the other aircraft had the pilot and the trainee gunner who flew alongside where the drogue was and you had to aim at the drogue. And that was your training. You aimed at the drogue so you learned to use a gun, machine gun in in the air and you became a gunner. JH: Was growing up on a farm, maybe you had a shotgun. Was that any help? MB: Oh, well I certainly had a rifle as a fellow of twenty two. Used to shoot rabbits and things yes, but well, a machine gun is a bit different to a rifle [laughs] JH: Yes. Okay. Well, so, what happened next? You crewed up and you converted to the Lancaster. MB: Yes. Well, we as I say we arrived at Waddington in late May and at that time the big effort of Bomber Command was to make life difficult for the Germans to bring up troops and equipment to the Normandy area where the landing was to take place shortly after. So all my trips were to France in that sort of purpose. On D-Day morning for example we had been to the coast of Normandy bombing German gun emplacements and then we were flying back west of Cherbourg and I looked up the Channel and there were five thousand ships there. Amazing. JH: So, you weren’t in on the secret that D-Day was, was on. MB: No. But it was fairly obvious that things were going to happen because of the activities that went on. We had expected it to happen. Didn’t know just when. JH: Yes. MB: And our role was just to make life difficult for the Germans. JH: Yes. MB: To move up troops and equipment. JH: Yes. That must have been an incredible sight seeing that huge armada heading, heading to Normandy. What, what, what was the crew, what was their feeling about seeing that? Must, must have felt pretty excited about it. MB: Well, I guess everybody was excited that the thing was happening. They expected it to happen and there it was actually happening and then about four nights later on, actually four nights later, 10th, 11th of June our mission was to Orléans to bomb railway yards which we did. And then we were flying home west of, or north of Le Mans area when suddenly I saw great sheets of flame coming past my turret. Our aircraft was on fire. The port inner engine was the main one there. Then the port outer. And then the controls became difficult for the pilot and the engineer to handle. The pilot told the two gunners to get out of their turrets and throw overboard anything they could to lessen the weight of the aircraft because we were losing height fairly quickly. And this we did. JH: And you had, you dropped the bombs at that stage. MB: We had, yes. JH: You were on the way back. Yeah. MB: We bombed at, at Orléans and were going home. But the, as it became impossible to control and it looked as if we’d either crash or ditch in to the Atlantic if we kept going the pilot said to bale out, the crew to bale out. And they did. The two gunners were standing near the rear hatch which was open and the mid-upper gunner was the first. He had to, according to instructions sit there facing backwards and roll sideways. He did sit there and didn’t fall out so I gave him a shove and he fell out then on his way. I sat there and tried to do the same but without success. It think it was centrifugal force was holding me back in but fortunately I’d grown up on a farm using slip rails and whatever. I was quite capable of going through them so I quickly got back in to the fuselage and faced forward and rolled through the door, clear and floated down in the dark. JH: So, so this was your first parachute jump. MB: Yes JH: I guess it’s something you can’t practice. MB: No. No. And once was enough. JH: Yes. So, what was the routine? Did you count so many seconds and then pull the cord? Or did it — MB: Yes. You were supposed to count to — JH: Open automatically. MB: About ten. Ten. And I can’t remember what happened. JH: Yeah. MB: With the counting but I certainly pulled the rip cord. JH: Yeah. MB: And floated down. JH: Yeah. MB: The first thing I knew near the ground was the tree branches came past my face. JH: Yeah. MB: Because it was pitch black. You couldn’t see anything. JH: Yes. MB: And I landed safely. JH: Could you see as you were coming down presumably you didn’t see or make contact with other crew members in this forest. MB: No. I didn’t see the others at all. JH: Yeah. MB: I was the last one out and delayed by people — JH: So, they were behind you. MB: Who were having difficulty getting out. JH: Yeah. MB: The bomb aimer who was first out saw the aircraft crash. So, it happened — JH: Yes. MB: Pretty soon after. JH: Yes, and unfortunately, I believe the pilot didn’t get out. MB: No. I think — JH: Yeah. MB: He would have had trouble because of the centrifugal force. JH: What was his name? Your pilot. MB: Joe Fletcher. JH: Fletcher. Yes. MB: So, getting down in the dark I gathered my parachute together and stuffed it under some bushes. JH: Yeah. MB: And then walked off north. JH: Yes. MB: On the basis that the allies had landed up north and I knew sort of roughly where we were. JH: How, how far do you think you were from the allied lines at that stage? MB: Probably about a hundred and fifty kilometres. JH: Yeah. MB: Two hundred kilometres. JH: A fair way. Yeah. Yeah. So, you, you had an escape kit which included a compass and — MB: Yes. JH: Some food. MB: A little pack of a compass, you had a compass and we also had little buttons which were a compass. Fortunately, at high school in the leaving French class there was six of us and a local lady who was Swiss born had invited the students in the senior French class to come to her house one afternoon each week for one hour discussion. French conversation. We only spoke French once we walked in the front gate. So that was only eighteen months before so I still remembered. I could talk to the local farmers and get food and I swapped my uniform for farm clothes. Old farm clothes. And then I could walk in daylight as long as I kept away from the Germans. JH: Did they give them to you? The French people. Or did you find them on the on the, on a clothes line somewhere. MB: No. I did a swap. JH: Okay. MB: I swapped a very good uniform clothes. JH: Right. MB: For some old farm clothes. JH: Okay. MB: And yes, I walked north for the three weeks and came to a village of six houses. I could hear the front not too far away so I was close enough and found a French family who were friendly and initially got some milk to drink and then the lady was obviously friendly. She could see I was a stranger so I told her that I was an English airman on the run. I didn’t mention Australian because that didn’t mean a lot — JH: Yes. MB: To people in Europe at the time. So, we talked for a while and then she said I could hide in a barn on their farm which was about a kilometre away and told me how to get there. So, I did. Went down there, hid upstairs in this old barn and they used to leave out some food each night. I would go out and get it and hide again. And a week later the lad who worked on the farm came down early in the morning and said, ‘Get out quickly. The Germans are in the village.’ And they were. I took off in a hurry and was about a few fields away before two German Army men said, ‘Halten halt,’ and then, ‘Papier.’ I had no papers. I was immediately arrested, marched up to the local town which I remember the name of, La Ferriere-Harang and then questioned there by the Army. And they accepted that I was an airmen on the run, passed me over to the Luftwaffe people who then took me to Oberursel, near Frankfurt which was a big interrogation centre for airmen and after questioning and being photographed and fingerprinted I became Kreigsgafengen vierhundert zwei und dreissig Luft 7. JH: How did you manage to convince them you were an airmen? Did you have your flying boots for example or — MB: No. No. No. All I had really were the little metal discs. Identity discs that the Air Force used. JH: Yes. MB: That was a little bit of a problem really in that all the Army stuff was a plastic sort of material but the Australian Air Force had these little metal ones. Anyhow, they accepted my view fortunately. JH: Yeah. MB: I was lucky. Had I been three kilometres east I’d have been in SS territory. JH: Yeah. MB: They would have been [pause] like that. JH: Not so sympathetic. Yeah. MB: Yes. JH: Yeah. MB: So, at Oberusel after the initial questioning and fingerprinting and so on I was moved off to Bankau. The Stalag Luft 7 for NCO airmen, and went there with other people, other similar men. On the way I received a Red Cross parcel of clothing and toilet gear. JH: You travelled there by train. MB: By train. JH: Yeah. MB: Yes. Now, I arrived in the camp at Bankau on the 5th of August ’44, and initially we were in small huts. They were temporary huts. Of course, that camp had only started in June and Russian prisoners were building bigger barracks with rooms of bunks for us for winter accommodation and we moved in to there in October. I think it was the 13th of October ’44. It became quite cold and the icicles used to hang down from the guttering, or not the guttering but the eaves of the house and if you put a comb through your hair it went white with frost. JH: Yeah. MB: Straight away. JH: Had you by then come across your fellow crew members along the way or at the camp? MB: Well, three of them were waiting at the gate to see us arrive and saw me [laughs] JH: Looking for you [laughs] Nice welcome. MB: Two others had successfully evaded capture and returned to England and one of them cheerfully wrote to us in the camp and said, ‘Oh, I’m in London having a beer. I’ll think of you.’ [laughs] JH: So, when was the first time your parents back in Victoria knew you were safe? Was that from Frankfurt when you were in the interrogation? MB: Oh, I’ve just forgotten the date [pause] The system was that the German authorities advised the Red Cross in Geneva of airmen who were captured and the Red Cross then advised our Air Force people of our capture and we were in a prison camp and the Air Force people quickly advised the parents that their son was alive. JH: Yes. MB: And in a camp and they could relax because before that they only knew their son was missing. JH: They got the “missing” telegram. Yeah. MB: Yes. JH: So what, when you arrived at the camp what was the culture like? Were people, you know digging tunnels or were they resigned to the fact that it could be over at some stage? MB: I don’t think at that stage there was a lot of enthusiasm about digging tunnels because it was pretty obvious to us that it would be over before long. The Red Army was marching westward and the allies were advancing from France. So it was a matter of wait it out. JH: Yes. MB: And we’d be released. JH: What would a typical day be in the camp? MB: Well, in the morning we would receive some food and then we’d roll call about 9 o’clock, I think. And then we’d stand in rows and be counted. And then during the day we could walk around in the camp. We could play cards. We could play games. We could go to lectures on all sorts of subjects because many of the people in the camp were highly trained in some field or other. And then we would have an issue of soup each day and some potatoes. The roll call in the afternoon at about 5 o’clock but mostly the Germans left us alone as long as we stayed inside the trip wire. The trip wire was a wire about a foot off the ground about three metres or so from the big wire fences and as long as you stayed inside the wire you were safe enough. But step over it and they’d shoot. The main thing was not to get too much boredom. We had little trading tables. Cigarettes in the Red Cross parcels became the currency in the camps and you could trade cigarettes for food. For example, for a bar of chocolate. And the Red Cross parcels were really, made a lot of difference because they contained meat, milk, sugar, cheese, tea, coffee, chocolate, fruit, and that was a big help because the diet, the German diet was pretty meagre. Also, the Red Cross provided cards, games, writing materials, medical supplies or clothing. They made a very big difference. During the war I read that the Red Cross issued or sent some sixty million parcels to Geneva to be distributed back to POWs. Most of them came from Britain, Canada and USA. And they really made a big difference. JH: Were you able to keep abreast of what was happening on the Fronts via, you know, illicit radios and so on? MB: Yes. There was, there was a certain amount of information released to us. JH: And new, new prisoners coming in would have news. MB: Well, they would bring the news of the latest but also there was a radio in the camp and we got some word about various things. JH: Yes. MB: For example, how the Russians were going. JH: Yeah. Let’s talk about the long march. Did you have any warning about this was coming up? MB: Well, yes we did have. Towards the end of ’44 as the Red Army marched west we were alerted that we might have to move prisoners to, prisoners in Polish camps might have to move to Germany. So, we had Christmas in our camp and then in January, the 19th of January I think it was we had to - JH: ’45. Yeah. MB: ’45. Yes. We had to march out early in the morning. JH: So, you had, you had a few hours notice. MB: A couple of hours. Yes. JH: A couple of hours. Yeah. MB: We were told to pack up and be ready. JH: Yeah. MB: I think we were awakened, awakened about three o’clock in the morning and then had to be ready by five. JH: Yeah. MB: We didn’t actually move out straightaway but we did take off shortly after and marched off through the snow. Or I should say trudged off through the snow. JH: Yes. MB: And it began a very miserable journey because we had little food and little shelter on the way. The second night we were, we’d marched forty two kilometres and it was minus thirteen degrees temperature. But once we crossed the Oder it was a bit, well being a bit more slowly. Now, about three weeks on the road we were at a place called Goldberg and there we were crammed in to train trucks. So, about fifty five or so people per truck, standing room only and we’d been given food for two days but no water and then we started the three day journey to Luckenwalde, about fifty Ks south of Berlin. JH: Yes. Were there streams of refugees, Germans heading — MB: Oh yes. JH: East. Heading west as well. MB: When we were walking. When we were walking there were streams of old people and little kids, all heading back for Germany. Apparently, they’d been told to pack up and get out at short notice and they did and they would have had a terrible time. JH: And so you ended up in Luckenwalde. Tell me a little bit about the conditions at that camp. MB: We had a big hall like building that we were in. I think it might have been say four hundred men in that room. We had straw on the floor to sleep on and you had enough room for yourself to lie down and maybe a walkway here and there. And three of us had travelled together on the road. It was better that way because when we were in a barn if we were lucky to have a barn we would take it in turns to sleep in the middle because the one in the middle was warm. Put our blankets over ourselves. We didn’t take our boots off at night because they froze. It was difficult to get them on in the morning and the Germans didn’t give you much time. They’d come in with their snarling Alsatians. JH: Yes. MB: And fire a few bullets around the roof. So, we slept with our boots on. JH: And what about people that were straggling in the column? How, how did the Germans treat them? MB: They provided a wagon and a horse on the road we were walking one night. The worst night was that one. People who fell down, couldn’t walk they put them up on the wagon for a half an hour or so to recover. Our doctor, RAMC medico man, he told us as we, before we started, ‘Do not lie down and go to sleep. You will never wake up.’ And it would be true enough. You see, when you get exhausted in the cold it’s so easy just to go to sleep. Stay there. JH: Just a, just the minute. The RAMC. What does that stand for? MB: Royal Army Medical Corps. JH: Yeah. MB: Dr, oh I’m not sure of his name. JH: Yes. So, how long were you in the Luckenwalde? MB: Probably three or four weeks. We’d been one afternoon, or one day, I can’t remember the time of the day now but a couple of American war correspondents came in a jeep with big white stars on it and they, they called at the camp to pick up one of their friends who I think was also a war correspondent or something. And they said they would arrange for people to get trucks to take us out because we were only about forty miles from the Elbe River which was the boundary between American and Russian troops. And sure enough a few days later ambulances did come and took the sick people away for the hospital and then a few days later a whole lot of American trucks came early in the morning and nothing much happened. By lunchtime we were wondering if it would be possible to go in these trucks. Word came around that they were not going to be able to take us out so quite a lot of our people started to walk down the road towards the — JH: American. MB: River. JH: American line. MB: American line. It was only forty miles away. Now the three of us who were on the road together stayed together. We walked out because we got fed up with staying in the camp. We thought we could walk over there in a couple of days. So down we go on the road and there are people, and there are people streaming down the road. And then along came a Russian car followed by empty American trucks followed by a Russian car. They’d been, the Americans had been told that we were not allowed to go out and if they took us on the truck they’d intern the lot. Apparently there had been an agreement at Yalta that British or allied prisoners would go back via the Black Sea and they were holding it up on that basis. However, some of our people took off across country including the three of us. The others went back to camp. That night the three of us stayed in a little place called Treuenbritzen, and stayed with a German family overnight. And the next morning we go down the road heading towards the American line and along came a small Russian convoy of half a dozen trucks and we hitched a ride. Now, everybody at that stage were putting little flags on their shoulder and we’d made up little American flags with stars and stripes because the Russians knew the stars and stripes. JH: Yeah. MB: After all America gave them ten percent of their armaments. Now we were on these trucks we were heading for the Elbe. I didn’t speak any Russian. They didn’t speak English. I said to one of them waving my hands like wheeling a car. ‘Shoo’ and I said ‘shoo’, and I said ‘Forward. Forward.’ Like I knew the trucks. They dropped us off at a place called Zerbst, on the Elbe and there were hundreds of people there. All sorts of folk. Some wanted to go west across the Elbe but they couldn’t get over. The Russians wouldn’t let them. We spotted three American tanks with big white stars on them. We went over and said to the sergeant at the tank, ‘Can we get a ride back with you fellas?’ ‘Yeah, where you? What are you?’ We told him. He said, ‘Oh, get one on each of these tanks. Keep your heads down. Things aren’t too happy over there.’ Their tank guns were pointing across the square. The Red the Red Army tanks were the other way. JH: The turf war going on. MB: Oh, yes. So we did that and mid-afternoon we got back to the American camp only a few miles over the river. The thing that amazed me, the sergeant on the tank said to us, ‘Have you fellas had anything to eat?’ I said, ‘No.’ ‘Come with me.’ He took us over to the cookhouse, said to the sergeant cook, ‘These fellas haven’t had anything to eat. Got anything for them?’ ‘Oh, yes. Yes.’ He went over to a refrigerator, a huge refrigerator, opened the door, took out half a cooked chicken each. We scoffed. The next morning, we stayed overnight with them. The next morning we lined up in the chow line with the Americans. They had a tray system they put stuff on. I came along and the bloke doing flapjacks. I said, ‘I’ll have that one.’ He said, ‘Oh no. That’s stale.’ Threw it out. Made me another one. Amazing. Across the other side of the river people would have scrambled in the dirt for it. JH: For that flapjack. MB: Oh yes. But anyhow, they passed us on to other people and from there we were following through we were treated on the way for lice. Interesting technique. American fella, Army fella standing there with a big drum of powder and powder puffer thing and then he goes, ‘Pull up your shirt,’ and squirted down your front. Pulled up the front of your trousers and squirted down the back. Same down the back of your neck, same down the back of your trousers to stop the lice. It was probably DDT [laughs] but it worked. We got to Brussels and then flew back to England. JH: With an RAF flight? Was it Lancasters going back? MB: I don’t think it was the Lancaster. No. I think it was a Douglas DC3, I think. JH: DC3. Yeah. Yeah. So did you end up in Brighton after that? That seemed to be. MB: Yes. JH: A lot of the POWs ended up in Brighton. MB: Yeah. Yeah. We did. JH: Yeah. MB: We were all pretty lean. JH: Yeah. MB: I suppose. And the Australian Red Cross I suppose it was, they had a small, not a café but a sandwich bar. You could go in there any day, any time of the day and they had beautiful sandwiches. Corned beef and asparagus. Lovely fresh sandwiches. They wanted to build us up and they did. We enjoyed the pubs in Brighton. JH: I bet you did. I think my father was there as well. MB: Yeah. JH: Yes. So, tell me, tell me how you ended up. How you actually got home from there. MB: Oh, I came back on the Orion. A whole heap of us on the Orion and we arrived in Sydney and we’d been re-equipped with clothing and whatever and we had a day in Auckland on the way. No, not Auckland. Wellington I think. And then Wellington on the way. We came back via the Panama Canal as well. Came from Wellington to Sydney. Unloaded. Victorians were then put on a train down to Melbourne and were given a ride around the city in cars with people. We were welcomed. Then we were sent off on our leave at home. Met our parents. JH: Colac. MB: Yes. JH: Yeah. What a journey. MB: Yes. Well, now they’d be lucky. JH: Okay. Well, let’s talk a little about what happened after that. Trying to pick up the pieces and looking at a career. And then later on a family. MB: Yes. Well, having been in the camps I wanted to be in the open. I had in mind I’d like to start a poultry farm. In those days you could have a useful poultry farm about three thousand birds and my father said we could make land available we could put sheds on. But it wasn’t possible to buy any materials to build the sheds. Everybody wanted them for houses. So, it was suggested to me by some government advisor chappie that I could probably benefit by doing a training course. I’d already qualified for university because I’d started to study mathematics at Melbourne before I went off to the war and he said why don’t I do an agriculture course if I was going to be in poultry farming. And then I thought I’d be better doing Vet. Vet Science means I could move here or there or somewhere else if I wanted to. So I opted to do Vet Science and at that stage a requirement, a pre-entry requirement of that was physics. Physics, chemistry and English. Now, I had English and physics at leaving. I didn’t have chemistry because the school didn’t teach it and they said, ‘We can give you a year’s training in Melbourne if you like.’ So I went to Melbourne, to a Taylor’s training college, private little show and studied chemistry for a year and got that and then went off to Sydney to, to start the Vet course which was five years. And while there I had the good fortune to meet my wife who was a student doing medicine and we ended up we both qualified a day apart. She was a day ahead. Stayed ahead ever since. And, and then we were married about a year after our graduation and then our family came along in due course. Two beautiful girls who both continued their tertiary studies. Still are studying. And I then worked initially for a couple of years with the Department of Agriculture because I’d taken a traineeship with them in the last two years of my course. I was a bit short of chips at that stage. I could take a scholarship, a traineeship. All I had to do in return was work for two years with the Department which I did. Then transferred to what was known as the, in those days as the [unclear] Protection Board as a veterinary officer. JH: Yes. MB: And I spent the next thirty five years doing that. And my wife having graduated in medicine ended up being a general practitioner. JH: Yes. And how did you, how did you keep up with the veterans and fellow air crew? Is that something that happened more recently or were you able to do that after your marriage. MB: It wasn’t, well in Aubrey there wasn’t much chance in the organisation there. But our bomb aimer was in Canberra and he and I kept in touch. And sometimes I’d be able to go to Canberra to some function that the bomber people were having. Might be a squadron reunion or something like that. And then of course eleven years ago when we moved here to Port Kembla I was able to get involved much more with Bomber Command people in Sydney and attend things there. JH: Yeah. I think 463 and 467 have been quite a strong group over the years. MB: Yes. Yes. We used to have a Lady’s Day at — JH: At Kalara. MB: Kalara. JH: Yes. MB: And we would go there. My son in law and daughter. JH: Yes. MB: Would drive Ruth and myself up. JH: My wife and I met you at that. We were on the same table. Yeah. That was a couple of years ago and my sister was over from England. Yes. You’re right. Well, that’s fantastic. That’s really interesting. I’d like to ask you about, you had a trip back to France and I think you were hoping to meet up with the French people that helped you evade capture. MB: Oh yes. Yes. That was very interesting. In 1985 my wife and I went over to Europe to have a trip around and then visit our daughter and son in law in Cambridge, England. Son in law David spoke French quite well and I said to him I’d like to go over to Normandy in France to see if I could find those people who were so helpful to me because I remembered this little town and I’d looked it up on one of the maps. La Ferriere-Harang in Normandy. He said, ‘Yes, we’ll go over.’ So one Saturday morning we flew over to Le Havre, hired a car, Avis car, drove down to the area. We started talking to a lady in the front garden of her house and she wasn’t very interested but the lady across the street heard all this strange commotion and noise. She came over and she was quite interested and helpful and for a couple of hours she took us around. We found the farm. The little village was only about two kilometres, three kilometres away and I described the farm and the old barn, the old house. But the old house on the farm was vacant. Nobody in it. There was something there I’d never seen before. It was an alcove bed. Now, an alcove bed, there was a big sitting room, a living room. In the wall there was a cavity the size of a double bed. A curtain drawn across at the front. So, daytime it’s shut there and that’s the bedroom shut off. Night time back goes the curtain, inside, pull the curtain all sides. Warm inside. I described this old house on the map and anyhow it clicked. We found the place. The old house had been demolished. The new people were there and we had a few drinks together. I said to them, ‘I suppose the farmer and his wife who had this farm may have passed on.’ ‘Oh no. No. They’ve retired just recently. They live at —’ such and such. Only about twenty kilometres away. So, we got the address and drove over and they were delighted of course to know that I’d survived. JH: Yes. MB: And that began a friendship that’s continued ever since. JH: Yeah. I should imagine that was quite an emotional moment. MB: Oh yes. Yes. JH: To see those people before you. MB: Yes. JH: And for them as well. Yeah. MB: Oh yes. I’ve been back to though they’ve passed on now. I’ve been back four there four or five times to stay on their — JH: Yeah. MB: Son in law’s current farm. JH: Yes. MB: Yes. JH: Quite a connection. Yes. Yeah. MB: Well, yes and our granddaughter in England who speaks excellent French she’s been there a few times and over [unclear] JH: Yes. That’s marvellous. It really is. Why don’t we finish off? I’d like to, this is a question we’re encouraged to ask is your thoughts on the treatment of Bomber Command aircrew post, post-war. You know, we’re talking about lack of campaign medal. What you thought of the area bombing and what you think of this resurgence that’s going on in in trying to interview as many veterans and the commemorations and so on. Some reflections in other words. MB: Yes. Yes. There were a couple of disappointing aspects that come to mind. One was Churchill’s attitude. In the early stages of the war when bombing was the only thing you could do against the Germans he thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. But after the Dresden episode and the fuss and bother that was made it became politically unpopular. So he didn’t mention Bomber Command in his wartime end of speech, end of wartime speech. No mention. And the Brits are still reluctant to recognise much about Bomber Command. They haven’t awarded a campaign medal. They have reluctantly awarded a clasp to the ’39/45. That’s one aspect. The other one is that there were people in Australia who didn’t know anything about the attitudes and activities in England. In Europe. They were more interested in why we weren’t here helping keeping the Japanese at bay. We should be here. Not over there. But the, the wide view is that we had to defeat the Germans before we could defeat the Japs. And I think the work that Bomber Command did was quite, well worthwhile. It, if you take the number of people tied up in the German Army system, in anti-aircraft activity, if all those anti-aircraft guns had been on the Eastern Front shooting at Russian tanks it would have slowed the Red Army quite a bit and all the people involved there. Even the people, you know transports or whatever. So, I think the Bomber Command activities were well worthwhile. Sure some people unfortunately were killed in the process. Civilian people. But in wartime it happens. Now the, from what I’ve read the losses of life in Dresden were largely exaggerated by Germans. The true numbers seem to be more like twenty, between twenty three and twenty five thousand and not the great figures that Ribbentrop was talking about. I think the Americans had the better view in that they kept talking about bombing particularly oil installations and things like that whereas Bomber Harris was concentrating on knocking out cities. The Americans may have had an easier run because of that. JH: And the French have been showing their appreciation, haven’t they with the — MB: Oh yes. JH: The Legion of Honour. MB: Yes. JH: Awards. MB: Oh yes. The French have. They recently, in recent years have awarded their Legion of Honour Chevalier Level to people like myself who were involved in freeing France from German occupation. JH: Congratulations on that award. MB: Oh. Thank you. My involvement on D-Day was the thing that probably did that but they were most appreciative. It’s quite a beautiful little medal. You’ve seen it have you? JH: Yes. Have you showed your friends in in France? MB: No. I haven’t been over there. No. JH: Yes. MB: No. JH: Maybe your next trip. MB: No. I’m too long in the tooth now to make another trip. But the French were very appreciative of the help that we gave. Yes. JH: Max, on that note why don’t we finish off? I really appreciate your time for this and I found it very interesting indeed and it’s been quite a story and thank you very much. MB: My pleasure. Had to be lucky. JH: Yes. Very lucky. Probably still recording. Where is it? Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Max Barry Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Horsburgh Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ABarryM180328 Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Royal Australian Air Force Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:53:59 audio recording Description An account of the resource Max was born in Beaufort, Victoria and grew up on his parents’ dairy farm. Gaining a scholarship led to him becoming a student teacher and attending training college. He was called up when he was 18 and applied to become a reserve in the Air Force, as an air gunner. He was posted to Bristol in England for training and then went to Brighton and Lichfield where they formed crews. Training on Wellingtons, Stirlings and, finally, Lancasters took place at Church Broughton. Max then joined 463 Squadron based at RAF Waddington, Lincolnshire. The squadron carried out many operations to France, including Orléans where they bombed railway yards. On returning home their aircraft caught fire and the crew baled out. The crew, apart from the pilot, survived. After walking for three weeks, he was offered a barn to stay in. He was finally arrested by the Germans and was sent to an interrogation centre at Frankfurt and then taken by train to Stalag Luft 7. He described a typical day in the camp. Max was on the long march, which began in January 1945, and described the conditions and their destinations. After the war, Max enrolled on a five-year vet training course and married soon after graduating. He kept in touch with some of his aircrew and later went to Normandy to find the people who were kind to him during the war. The friendship has continued. Max thinks that Bomber Command did the right thing and contributed to victory. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Derbyshire France France--Orléans Germany Germany--Frankfurt am Main Poland Poland--Tychowo Germany--Luckenwalde Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942 1944-01-19 1945-01 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sue Smith Julie Williams Carolyn Emery Maureen Clarke 27 OTU 463 Squadron air gunner aircrew bale out bombing crewing up Dulag Luft evading Lancaster Lancaster Finishing School perception of bombing war prisoner of war RAF Church Broughton RAF Lichfield RAF Waddington Red Cross Resistance shot down Stalag Luft 7 Stirling the long march training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/477/10243/LBrileyWG1586825v1.pdf 1fafc8f88de868c2a3d32e67ebd8d4b0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Briley, William George George Briley W G Briley Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Briley, WG Description An account of the resource Eight items. An oral history interview with Warrant Officer William George Briley (1586825, Royal Air Force), his log book, service material and a sight log book containing <a href="https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collections/show/987">18 target photographs</a>. After training in South Africa, George Briley completed 39 bombing and supply dropping operations as a navigator with 40 Squadron flying Wellingtons from Foggia in Italy. <br /><br />The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by William George Briley and catalogued by Barry Hunter,&nbsp;<span>with additional identification provided by the Archeologi dell'Aria research group (</span><a href="https://www.archeologidellaria.org/">https://www.archeologidellaria.org</a><span>)</span> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource William George Briley's observer's and air gunner's flying log book Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Great Britain. Royal Air Force Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One booklet Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Log book and record book Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LBrileyWG1586825v1 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Review Oct 2024 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mike Connock Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Bosnia and Herzegovina Croatia Greece Hungary Italy Montenegro Middle East--Palestine Serbia Slovenia South Africa Bosnia and Herzegovina--Bugojno (Opština) Bosnia and Herzegovina--Doboj Bosnia and Herzegovina--Tuzla Croatia--Sinj Danube River Gaza Strip--Gaza Greece--Athens Hungary--Székesfehérvár Hungary--Szombathely Italy--Bologna Italy--Brescia Italy--Bronzolo Italy--Casarsa della Delizia Italy--Ferrara Italy--Foggia Italy--Milan Italy--Susegana Italy--Udine Italy--Verona Middle East--Palestine Montenegro--Kolašin Montenegro--Podgorica Serbia--Novi Pazar Slovenia--Borovnica Slovenia--Cerkno Slovenia--Solkan South Africa--East London Greece--Thessalonikē Gaza Strip Danube River Montenegro--Matesevo Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943 1944 1945 1944-09-02 1944-09-06 1944-09-10 1944-09-12 1944-09-13 1944-09-14 1944-09-17 1944-09-19 1944-09-21 1944-09-26 1944-10-04 1944-10-05 1944-10-09 1944-10-10 1944-10-11 1944-10-12 1944-11-01 1944-11-04 1944-11-05 1944-11-06 1944-11-08 1944-11-10 1944-11-16 1944-11-17 1944-11-18 1944-11-19 1944-11-22 1944-11-25 1944-11-26 1944-12-11 1944-12-13 1944-12-14 1944-12-15 1944-12-16 1944-12-19 1944-12-26 1944-12-27 1945-01-03 1945-01-05 1945-01-15 1945-01-20 1945-01-21 Description An account of the resource Observers and air gunners flying log book for Wiliam George Briley, covering the period from 2 December 1943 to 24 November 1945. Detailing his flying training, operations flown and communication flight duties. He was stationed at, East London, RAF Qastina, RAF Foggia and Athens. Aircraft flown in were, DH82 Tiger Moth, Anson, Empire flying boat, Wellington, Defiant, C-47, Fairchild Argus III and Liberator. He flew a total of 39 operations, 26 night and 13 daylight operations, consisting of 28 bombing operations and 11 supply drops. Targets were Ferrara, Bologna, Milan, Athens, Brescia, Szekesfehervar, Thessaloniki, Borovnica, Danube, Verona, Bronzolo, Tuzla, Sinj, Vragolovi, Predgrao, Zakomo, Podgorica, Novi Pasar, Chiapovano, Szombathely, Bugojno, Matesevo, Casarsa, Susegana, Salcano, Doboj, Circhina and Udine. His pilot on operations was Sergeant Hanson. 40 Squadron Air Observers School aircrew Anson B-24 C-47 Defiant mine laying navigator Operational Training Unit RAF Foggia RAF Qastina Resistance Tiger Moth training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/987/10267/PBrileyWG15010018.1.jpg 5bda7a5ef865adede0318b9853933187 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Briley, William George. Sight log book Description An account of the resource 18 target photographs taken by Sergeant Hanson's 40 Squadron aircraft over bombing and supply drop targets in Italy, Greece, Serbia, Slovenia and Hungary in 1944 and 1945. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Briley, WG Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-09 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Circhina supply drop Description An account of the resource Vertial aerial photograph of Circhina. Snow-covered terrain, scattered trees and a river are visible on the image. Captioned '2780 40'55 21 Jan '45 F8"//1400° [arrow] 17.17 T.T. Circhina Supply Drop. Sgt Hanson P/O Jones B'A. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1945-01-21 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One b/w photograph Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Photograph Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context PBrileyWG15010018 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Slovenia Slovenia--Cerkno Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1945-01-21 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Great Britain. Royal Air Force Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. 40 Squadron aerial photograph Resistance target photograph