1 25 3 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/641/8911/ASmithJG160408.mp3 6d16663cc2df8504569f79a4c660d19f https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/641/8911/PSmithJG1601.jpg 539605fd7b5011ef5d9f78fb4e506c21 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/641/8911/PSmithJG1602.jpg 5f42fdfc71fb9f4a4d8b502b766e4e60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Smith, Jack John George Smith J G Smith Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Smith, JG Description An account of the resource Three items. An oral history interview with John 'Jack' Smith (1921 -2019) and his memoirs. He flew operations as a wireless operator with 189 Squadron. The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by John Smith and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-08 Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document DK: Right. So it’s David Kavanagh for the International Bomber Command Centre interviewing Jack — would you mind if I call you Jack? JS: Yes. DK: Jack, Jack Smith, um, on the 8th of April 2016. [slight cough] OK, I’ll just put that there. JS: Right. DK: If I keep looking down at it, don’t worry. I’m just checking that it’s still working. JS. Yes, alright. OK. DK: OK. So if, if I could just take you back a little bit before, before you actually joined the Air Force — JS: Before, yes. DK: What were you actually doing then before you joined up? JS: I was a trainee chartered accountant. DK: Right. JS: And of course I was only — I was eighteen the year the war started. So, er, knowing when the war started they were calling up men at twenty I didn’t want to join the Army, I wanted to be in the RAF. So when — as soon as I was nineteen I, along with one of my colleagues, we volunteered for the RAF and we went to Padgate in September 1940 and in fact we were sort of sworn in at the Battle of Britain weekend on the 14th of September 1940. DK: Oh right. JS: And then after six weeks we were sent home and, and called for, for active service on the 4th of November 1940. DK: Was there anything in particular that made you choose the RAF? Was it simply because you didn’t want the Army? [slight laugh] JS: Well, why I wanted is rather interesting. When I was still at school I considered joining the RAF and I went for a medical and, er, I had quite a lot of bad teeth. My father was kept out of the First World War because he had bad teeth. Anyway, I said, ‘That’s not a problem. I’ll have them out.’ And they said, ‘Well no. If you’ve had more than twelve out you don’t pass the medical.’ I said, ‘Well OK.’ So, I couldn’t get any further at that stage so, to cut a long story short there, I had twenty-two teeth out when I was seventeen and I’ve had dentures ever since, you see? Well, of course, when the war came, 1940, and then I wanted to join the RAF, I went in and of course passed medical A1, no problem at all really, with me dentures. So, er, that’s how I came to be in the RAF. I wanted to be in the RAF anyway. DK: Right. JS: And I thoroughly enjoyed it, you know, thoroughly enjoyed it. And so, of course, when we joined the — we went to — as I say, we were sworn in at Padgate and then started service on the 4th of November by going to Blackpool to commence training as a wireless operator and, of course, there we did all our drill on the promenade and marching and all that sort of thing. Then you did your Morse, one word a — increase one word a minute per week and then, when you got up to twelve words a minute, you were posted to a radio school. So then I left Blackpool and then I went down to, er, Compton Bassett, which was strictly speaking the, er, wireless operators for ground [emphasis] staff, which several of us couldn’t understand we were sent there ‘cause air crew used to go to Yatesbury — DK: Right. JS: For the training, you see. And then, of course, qualified as operators and I was posted, er, to a unit, RAF Bramcote, and I was only there a month as a wireless operator when I was posted abroad and, er, of course, found that there were fifty of us, wireless operators, had all been treated the same and we were not very happy about it. DK: And this is when you went to Iraq, was it? JS: That’s right. We went to Iraq, you see, and then when we got to Iraq the officer there didn’t know what to do with us but eventually we all settled down on different units and, er, got on to the ground operating, which was OK, and then, of course, we kept on moaning about the fact we wanted to fly and then, after much moaning and groaning and, sort of confined to quarters and everything, er, February 1943 I’d been on night duty on wireless operating duties and, er, the officer from the orderly room was there reading out names, including mine, of wireless operators to be returned to United Kingdom for air [emphasis] crew training. DK: Ah, so were you pleased about this when you heard this? JS: We were quite happy about it, see? So, of course, we all belted down to the air officer in charge of signals and, ‘Oh hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. There’s fifty of you.’ He said, ‘You’re all experienced ground operators. I want replacements.’ So, of course, we had to wait for replacements and they didn’t arrived ‘till July 1943. So eventually we travelled overland, through Iraq, and through to Gaza, and then by train into Egypt, and then we waited for a couple of weeks, and then we were put on board a troop ship to return to the UK. And we were the first convoy to return through the Mediterranean after it had been reopened. This was August 1943. This time Italy were packing up and so we eventually came through the Med and we stopped at Algiers and two days after we left Algiers the Germans bombed it. And then we pulled into, um, Gibraltar and, er, whilst we were there every night they let off depth charges in the docks to prevent submarines from entering and, anyway, we eventually got home. We arrived at Greenock in end of August 1943 and, of course, we were given disembarkation leave for three weeks and then I was then posted to the radio school at RAF Manley to resume my air crew training. And, of course, then I went through the course there and qualified at the end of December ‘43 and then I was kept on as sort of help the trainers with the, with the new intakes and eventually started then going to advanced flying unit in North Wales, and then on to Operational Training Unit at Silverstone, and then on to, er, on to heavy aircraft at RAF Winthorpe, on to Stirling aircraft, and then we went to Scampton then for a couple of weeks to convert to Lancasters. DK: What did you think of the — flying on the Stirlings? JS: Well, we, we enjoyed it in a way but our skipper, he was an Australian skipper, he said it was like driving a double-decker bus. And I mean he didn’t like it an awful lot, you know. DK: So at what point did you meet your crew then? [unclear] JS: Oh, when you were at Silverstone, at the Operational Training Unit. You’re all sort of assembled in one big hall and the pilots there are left then to, more or less, go round discussing the various members of the crew, you know, and sort of saying — you’re in different groups, you know, wireless operators and whatever, you see, and you, you just wait for a pilot to sort of come and say, ‘Well, would you like to join my crew?’ DK: Did you think that worked? Because it’s a bit of unusual for the Forces ‘cause normally you’re usually told where to go. This was all a bit hit and miss. JS: Yes. It worked. In, in my case it worked fairly well really, er, but I suppose if you wanted to be sort of really hundred per cent sure about it then no because, I mean, you didn’t — the pilot didn’t get an awful lot of chance to ask questions of you, you know. DK: No, no. JS: You qualified as whatever and because you qualified as a wireless op, ‘OK, well you can come in my crew.’ You see, I mean we were fortunate, we got a pretty very good skipper. But our crew worked out very well except for our tail gunner, who was an Irishman, and we had to ditch him after the third trip because twice he went to sleep on the way back from Germany, you know. I had the job to go down to see what had happened to him and there he was with the turret doors open, fast asleep. DK: Oh dear. JS: So we had to ditch him. So apart from that — DK: So from the, er, Operational Training Unit then did you then go to — JS: Operational Training Unit. Let’s see, we went straight from Silverstone, then to Winthorpe on to Stirlings. DK: Yeah. JS: And then — DK: This is the Heavy Conversion Unit? JS: That was the Heavy Conversion Unit at Winthorpe and then, having done that, you then went to Scampton just to get on to Lancasters. DK: Right. JS: Oh, and then we went — let’s see, we went to one more station, just near Newark, the Lancaster Finishing School near Newark, yeah. DK: Right, and what did you think of the Lancasters after the Stirlings? JS: Well, we liked it and some of us liked better, much more comfortable in many ways, you know. Certainly, I mean, it didn’t affect me too much but it was a bit more of a, a barn of an aircraft. The, the Lancaster was also nice and cosy and compact, as cosy as it could be, you know. We were all pretty well close together but you didn’t feel quite the same in a Stirling. DK: No. JS: But, er — DK: So from the Lancaster Finishing School then was that on to your operational squadron? JS: Operational squadron then. DK: Yeah, and which squadron was — JS: I went to 189 Squadron. DK: 189, yeah. JS: And they were based at Fulbeck, which is no longer operating, because it was near Cranwell, very near to Cranwell. And so we got there, I think it was in October ’40, ’44, October ’44, and then I actually started my first operation. We were b—, we were briefed, I think for three trips, which were aborted before — so we had all that operation for your first trip, you know, getting geared up for it, and then at the last minute it was cancelled, you see. DK: How did that make you feel then? Was it very frustrating? JS: Well not very happy about that, you know. You’re all geared up for your first trip, you know, and you think, ‘Oh well this is it. Tonight we’re — OK, fine.’ Then sort of five minutes before you’re going it’s cancelled. DK: And that happened three times. JS: It happened three times, yeah, it did. DK: So, can you remember where your first operation was to then? JS: Yeah I can. Er, without looking in me book, er, it was a mar—, a marshalling yard, um, railway marshalling yard. DK: In France? JS: In Germany. DK: In Germany. JS: Yeah. DK: OK. JS: But, um, we did quite a lot of marshalling yards and oil targets obviously. One of my raids — I did the Dresden raid. DK: Right. JS: And we did two targets on — DK: So how, how many operations did you do altogether? JS: I did twenty-four and two semi-operational trips because before you go on to a squadron, when you’re still on OTU, we did a leaflet raid in, in Wellington bombers. DK: Right. JS: A, a leaflet raid over France and then we did — what they called the Bullseye — a diversion off the Dutch coast to try and put the German radar off, thinking it was the main force were going there, you see. So you did two semi-, semi-operational raids and then, of course, by the time I did my twenty-four VE Day arrived and that was it and, of course, even then there were crews then waiting then obviously to go out to the Far East but, of course, I was considered tour-expired anyway then. That was alright, you see. DK: So as, as a wireless operator then what were your main duties once you were on board the aircraft and you — JS: Well your main duties really were to keep a listening watch all the time as to whether you got anything coming through from your base, and weather reports and things like that, anything of importance like that, and then, of course, it was also you were needed in case, as it happened, we had to sort of, er, get diverted because, er, we were running short of fuel on a couple of times and then, on one occasion, Lincolnshire was fog-bound for the whole of December 1944 and we were diverted to the north of Scotland and we had to spend a whole week in the north of Scotland before we could get back down to Lincolnshire because of the fog. So, then my other duty then would have been if we had to ditch. I had the job in the dinghy, if you got the dinghy, I had the emergency radio and I got to operate that. DK: Right. JS: And that was the worst thing I’d have to do really. DK: But that never happened then? JS: That never happened, thank God, no. But listening out and of course — well, I had to call up to request where we could be diverted to because we were short of fuel and we wanted to know the best place we could put down so it was Carnaby in, in Yorkshire or Manston in Kent. DK: Because they had the wider runways there? JS: Yes and they had what they called FIDO. DK: FIDO. JS: The fog dispersal unit, yeah. So I did two or three, probably three, diversions I think, yeah. DK: And was, was your aircraft ever attacked at all? Or — JS: Well, we were attacked but we was — we never had more than glancing blows, should I say. The worst we had, we did the — one raid to Gdynia in Poland. The German Navy were there and to, er, to get on the correct heading for the bombing run, we had to sort of go south of the target to come out over the port so that when we released the bombs we were over the Baltic. And somehow or other the navigator miscalculated and we got to the target five minutes early and then we got coned with searchlights. So we had a, a few hectic minutes with the searchlights on us so — but even that wasn’t too bad because they didn’t hit us anyway but it was a bit of a hair raising moment shall we say, you know. You’re sort of pretty vulnerable when you’re sort of coned. DK: Yeah. So were, were all your operations at night? JS: Not all of them, no. DK: Some were in daylight? JS: I did a thousand bomber raid on Dortmund and this — you’ll see in my log book they’re in green and all the night time ones are all in red. DK: Right. OK. JS: So I think we did three daylight raids, probably. Yeah. DK: But what was it like at night though? Was it — is it something you got used to? Because its — JS: Well you did. It sounds, now you think — you wonder how you did it, ‘cause there were no lights on anywhere, you see. I mean, your aircraft, you had no lights on, and most of our bomber strength, it was usually two hundred, that was the average strength of a bomber force, and sometimes more than that, but the average, average two hundred. Well, when you consider that you had a rendezvous point, quite often in our case it would be over Northampton or Beachy Head. Well, you consider you come in from different squadrons to the rendezvous point and there’s two hundred of you getting together to go to the same place and you’ve got no lights on. When you think about it that’s a bit hairy. DK: Yeah. JS: And of course, obviously, there’s no, no lights below you at all. The only time we got lights when we were sort of coming back, like, when we’d been to Gdynia and we came back over the Baltic. We then followed the Swedish coast and the Swedes were very kind. They put sort of small lights up along their coast so they were quite decent about it. But those were the only lights we ever saw, you know. DK: So when — what was it like when it got back then as you saw the airfield and you came into land? JS: Well, a mighty relief, obviously, that was and, of course, it was a relief and it sounds silly in a way but with so many aerodromes, particularly in Lincolnshire, as you know, it was a bit hairy coming in over your own circuit because a lot of circuits nearly overlapped. DK: Yeah. JS: And, of course, towards the end the Germans were getting so desperate that, er, they were sending their, some of their fighters back amongst the bomber force, and two or three of our planes got shot down over Norfolk because they’d been followed all the way back, you know. So there were those situations arising. DK: So you never got attacked by another aircraft then? JS: No, no, we didn’t. We sort of — obviously, when you’re in the target area you feel, obviously, all the explosions coming underneath, all the bumps and everything like that and then, of course, on one or two raids the Germans put up — what they called Scarecrows — that was sort of the imitation of an aircraft crashing, which can be a bit unnerving, you know, because you’re not too sure whether it is a Scarecrow or not and it gives all the appearance of being an aircraft going down in flames so it doesn’t do your morale any good, you know. DK: Did you see many of those then? JS: Oh we saw, I think over the years, over the operations, I probably saw half a dozen of those, I suppose, you know. DK: So when, when you weren’t flying and you were off duty did — what did you do then? Did you and your crew socialise together? Or — JS: Well, yes, yes. I mean, we often socialised, probably not all of you together. I mean, er, you bond in different ways really. I mean there’s seven of you. Well, er, in our crew our navigator was a bit of a quiet type and he, he never or hardly ever came out with us. I mean the rest of us were going down into Newark or the towns and having a night out but the navigator, he was an architect by profession, and he was a bit more quiet and he didn’t join us. But the skipper was a good, good Aussie, and he was the oldest member of the crew. He was early thirties. Well, I mean, we called him ‘dad’ because I was the second oldest member. I was twenty-three. DK: Right. JS: And — but he was a real Aussie and when you were out with him you had a good time, you know. We — DK: Can you remember the pilot’s name? JS: Yeah, Richter. Rod Richter, yeah. DK: And how did you feel, feel about, um, those from the Commonwealth, Australia and wherever? JS: Well, they were a terrific asset. I mean, we had a lot of Aussies, a lot New Zealanders as well, and Canadians, and they all mixed in with the rest of us very well, you know. DK: And did you, did you stay in touch with your crew after the war? JS: No and that was the big, big mistake I think perhaps a lot of us made. It was awfully sad. You say ‘Why didn’t you?’ Well, it didn’t happen. I don’t know why. DK: Because presumably he went back to Australia? JS: He went back to Australia, yeah, but I mean we were all good friends and there’s no reason why we shouldn’t have done but, for whatever reason, we didn’t, you know. DK: And the rest of your crew were they all — well the Irish gunner — but were the rest of them all English then? JS: Yeah. The navigator was from Stoke on Trent, the bomb aimer was from Llanelli in South Wales, the flight engineer was from New Malden in Surrey, the mid-upper gunner was from Hartlepool and the tail gunner was the Irishman from Belfast. So we were all around the British Isle. DK: And, and some of the major raids then. You mention you few to Dresden? JS: Dresden. DK: And what, what was that like? JS: Well, that was, of course — it was just one hell of a raid. I mean, we were bombing at midnight. We’d sort of — the Americans had been during the day and then the British were going at night. And I remember we were flying and we were flying over the Alps and we were getting iced up and we were getting a bit bothered, the skipper was a bit bothered, because we had to sort of reduce our height a bit from what the flight plan said but we were getting iced up rather badly. And then, of course, you could see the target miles away before you got there because, I mean, it was as you know, it was just one big blaze. And, er, actually over the target, I mean, there was a terrific amount of anti-aircraft fire and a lot of activity from night bomb— night fighters, you know, so you were getting quite a bit of hassle from one way or another but it was such a big raid that — but, there again, we were pretty fortunate. We missed anything of any serious consequence, you know. DK: Did Dresden at the time stand out as anything? Or was it just another raid? JS: Well, the reason we did the raid and I noted it in my log book. The reason — when we were being briefed we said the reason we were going, the Russians had pushed the German Army back and Dresden was absolutely full of the German Army, and that’s why we went to Dresden, as simple as that. And so you were sort of quite encouraged to think that there you were doing a target which you got the Germany Army there and wonderful, you know, just the job. You couldn’t have a better target with that sort of description, you know, but it was — it covered, it seemed to cover one hell of a big area, you know, because you’d see it, I don’t know, must have been at least a hundred miles away, must have been. DK: Yeah. JS: Because we were one hell of a height up, as you know. We were given the height we had to fly and all that sort of thing and we were sort of — well we were usually about anything between fourteen and sixteen thousand feet, I suppose, on average, and sometimes we’d been down as low as ten, you know. DK: Yeah. JS: And, er, but — I mean, all the raids you have you got sort of, obviously, a lot of apprehension because whilst you’re in the target area — when you consider that there’s two hundred of you going over one place in about twelve min— twelve, twenty minutes I should say, you’ve all got your bombing times, you know, H plus whatever, and when you think you’ve got — there’s two hundred of you going over that small area all in the same time and you’re stacked. And of course that was another job the wireless operator’d do. I had to stand, if the radio was OK, I had to stand on it and look through the astrodome and if we got our own aircraft with bomb doors open above us I gotta tell the skipper to dive port or starboard, you know. DK: Did that ever happen at all? Did you actually see aircraft blown up? JS: Yes. Well, I mean, we did that three or four times. Well, it happened quite often because, as you know, when you’ve got so many up more or less together, I mean, in fairly good layers, you know. And, particularly, it seemed to be the more trips you did the further down the stack you came, you see. DK: Yeah. JS: And so there was a big risk. I mean, we did lose — not our squadron but there were quite a lot of our aircraft lost through bombs from the ones above, you know. Because there isn’t much room. If you’ve got a bomber upstairs there and he’s getting set to load and let his load go, you know, and you’re just beneath, you’ve got to get out, you know, because otherwise you’ll soon get involved in it. DK: Yeah, yeah. So the war’s come to an end then. What, what happened to you in the RAF then? Did you leave soon after? JS: Well, I had a bit of a relaxing time because I was a flight sergeant and then I became a warrant officer because of the time and so I was on good money and very little to do. And the station near Ipswich and that’s where I met my wife. DK: Ah. JS: I met my wife in November 1945. DK: Right. JS: And so Ipswich was the nearest town. I was stationed at Woodbridge and Woodbridge actually was one of the stations with an emergency landing strip. DK: Yeah, yeah. JS: So I spent the rest of my time — I was actually working on the flying control tower signals, you know, and I didn’t have a lot to do really. I mean, as I say, it was — the end of the war, you see, fortunately VE Day came just as I’d done my 24th trip and that was the end of the war, you see, and there was nothing much for us to do except we’d obviously have a rest period anyway. DK: When did you leave the RAF then? JS: Oh, April 1946, yes. DK: And did you go back to your previous career? Or — JS: Yes, yes. I had my job kept open for me, you see. DK: Oh, right. OK. JS: In fact, I was released on the 3rd of April 1946 and on the 4th May I got married and so the next 4th of May it’s seventy years since we got married. DK: Oh, congratulations. [slight laugh] JS: So, our seventy years dear, isn’t it? [slight laugh] Unfortunately, my wife had a stroke four years ago and it affected her speech and so we, we haven’t been able to socialise these last four years like we usually do. It’s awful difficult. We have carers come in four times a day so — we’re social people and we miss that so much, you know. We haven’t had a holiday for six years. We sort of — it’s not as easy as it sounds, you know. DK: How do you look back on that period of your life in the RAF then? Do you, do you think about it still? [unclear] JS: I — it sounds silly in a way but I enjoyed it, er, not because it was a war but the spirit of the RAF. I enjoyed being in the RAF. And, er, no I thoroughly enjoyed it from that point of view, yeah. I mean, I did consider whether I should stay in but, of course, if you wanted to stay in you had to reduce two ranks and I was a warrant officer I didn’t want to go back down to being a sergeant. So anyway, as it happens, I’m still working as an account. I’m ninety-five in August. DK: And you’re still working? JS: I’m still working. DK: Oh excellent. [slight laugh] JS: So, you know — DK: [laugh] That’s good. JS: Oh no. The brain keeps ticking over. DK: That’s amazing. JS: And people still pay me so — DK: Well, we’ll stop there. JS: Yeah. DK: I think that’s probably enough. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Smith Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Kavanagh Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-08 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ASmithJG160408, PSmithJG1601, PSmithJG1602 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:29:00 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Iraq England--Blackpool England--Buckinghamshire England--Herefordshire England--Lancashire England--Northamptonshire England--Warwickshire England--Wiltshire England--Nottinghamshire England--Suffolk Germany Poland Poland--Gdynia Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944-10 1945-02 1940-09 1943-12 1946-03 Description An account of the resource Jack volunteered for the Royal Air Force in September 1940. He went to RAF Padgate and then on to RAF Blackpool, where he trained as a wireless operator. Jack proceeded to a radio school at RAF Compton Bassett and then RAF Bramcote. He was posted to Iraq, doing ground operating rather than flying. He eventually returned to the UK for aircrew training. Jack was posted to radio school at RAF Manley and qualified in December 1943. He went to the Advanced Flying Unit in North Wales and then the Operational Training Unit at RAF Silverstone, where he met his crew. This was followed by the Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Winthorpe on Stirling aircraft. Jack went to RAF Scampton to convert onto Lancasters and a Lancaster Finishing School near Newark. In October 1944 Jack was posted to 189 Squadron at RAF Fulbeck. His first three trips were aborted. He carried out 24 operations and two semi-operational trips (leaflets dropping and a diversion to confuse German radar). Several operations were to railway marshalling yards in Germany. He also describes an operation to Gdynia in Poland and the Dresden operation and its rationale. Jack discusses the main duties of the wireless operator, his experience of ‘scarecrows’ and the difficulty of flying at night in close proximity to other aircraft. When the war ended, Jack became warrant officer and was stationed at RAF Woodbridge, working on flying control tower signals. He left the RAF in April 1946 and returned to his job as trainee chartered accountant. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sally Coulter Maureen Clarke 189 Squadron aircrew bombing bombing of Dresden (13 - 15 February 1945) crewing up Heavy Conversion Unit Lancaster Operational Training Unit perception of bombing war RAF Bramcote RAF Compton Bassett RAF Fulbeck RAF Scampton RAF Silverstone RAF Winthorpe RAF Woodbridge RAF Yatesbury Scarecrow Stirling training wireless operator https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/333/3494/AStangrycuikBlackJ160710.mp3 8d572e5a9ef203e919c42aa93a627b9b https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/333/3494/PStangryciukBlackJ1701.jpg 7833673268b4133cfbed42ada1200c7c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Black, Jan Jan Stangryciuk-Black Jan Stangryciuk J Black J Stangryciuk-Black J Stangryciuk Description An account of the resource Two oral history interviews with Jan Black (formerly Stangryciuk)(1922 - 2023, 794829 Royal Air Force). Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-07-10 2017-03-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context StangryciukBlack, J Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document TO: Right. Good morning, good afternoon or good evening, whatever the case is. This interview is being filmed for the International Bomber Command Centre and the gentleman I’m interviewing is Jan Black. My name is Thomas Ozel. And also in the room we have — DB: Danuta Bildziuk. AB: And Artur Bildziuk. TO: And we’re recording this interview at the Polish Centre in Hammersmith on the 10th of July 2016. Now, could you please tell me what year you were born? JSB: Yes. I was born 18-4-1922 in Eastern Poland. Chelm Lubelskie. And after having fourteen years my father emigrated to South America. To Argentine. When we arrived in South America my father bought land and started a plantation. I went to school in Argentine to learn English and the rest of my education. After five years the Second War started in 1939. September. After hearing the destruction in my country and the suffering which my country was involved I was very, very upset because I had very patriotic feeling for my country and my people. In English newspapers in Buenos Aires were advertisement want some volunteers can join and enter into British armed forces. I applied to such invitation and I was asked to come over to Buenos Aires, to the capital city to have interview. I did travel to the capital city. Had interview. And after the interview I was asked when would I like to be ready for my, for my, for my journey to join the armed forces in Great Britain? I told them what that’s after arrangement what they could provide. After two weeks I received a letter and they told me, you know I can come to the capital city and I will have accommodation provided before the boat which will be sailing back to England. I arrived to mentioned location in Buenos Aires and had accommodation in hotel as it was arranged but we never knew when the boat would be sailing as it was strict secret but we’d been told we must be ready on short notice. And we received that notice that in four hours we must be ready and we would get transportation from the hotel to the very big boat called Highland Monarch. That boat was twenty six thousand tonner. Big one. And the most of his supply to England was meat for the nation in England. When we start our voyage our boat, to avoid German location of German submarine was not going on the straight course. He was doing zig zagging to avoid German’s location of German submarine. That journey took us much longer to enter Belfast in Northern Ireland because the boat was always in danger to come to the main ports of England. So the location between Argentine and Belfast was arranged for those four big liners which were doing the important supply of food between England and Argentine. The name of those boats was Highland Chieftain, Highland Monarch, Highland Princess. The fourth one I don’t remember. And after arriving in Belfast we’d been arranged — arranged accommodation in hotel for two nights. And afterwards we’d been, at night shipped to Scotland and we found ourself in some military barracks. After one week we had to pass medical board. And we’d been asked in what unit of armed forces we would like to serve. Of course I was young and I thought the most exciting unit I wanted to join — the Royal Air Force. During that time Polish Air Force start to be formed in England and I asked the commanding officer in English station if it is possible for me to be serve in the Polish Air Force. And I received permission and I had ticket arranged for me to travel to Blackpool. In Blackpool it was the first Polish Centre where the Polish Air Ministry was based. In Blackpool after having another interview about what profession I would like to serve in the Polish Air Force once again I wanted to fly. And they told me the only, at that time vacancy for training would be as a air gunner because to have a, have a permission to train as a pilot would be taking much longer time as we had special amount of people who only they could afford to train at such time. I accept my position as a rear gunner. After finishing all my training I had posting arranged for me to go to the 18 OTU. operational Bramcote where we start to be trained flying and having different night flights and earning more experience about future commitments which we will be engaged. Beginning of such training we had training to drop leaflets. Propaganda leaflets over Vichy France to promise French people what liberation will be coming for them in near future. During my return from such a mission our Wellington bomber received defect and we crash landed before we reached the aerodrome. During that impact in the crash I lost consciousness. When I recovered my consciousness I knew what I must try to get out of my crashed plane. But I, before deciding to look exit out I decided to try to see what’s happening to my pilot. From the rear turret I crawl to the front of the plane where the pilot was sitting. I tried to, to get him out of the burning plane but I couldn’t untie his belt what he was tied with it and the plane was increasing of the burning. I covered my left side of my face with my left hand and with my right hand I looked for the exit from my burning plane. Then I noticed skylight exit. As my plane was broken in two pieces, during that exit I scrambled to get out of the plane with burning my kombinezon flying suit as the petrol was already, already full of petrol. During my crawling and from the plane I received help from local farmers when they came and took my burning kombinezon out of me. But I was already very badly burned. My face and my hands. Ambulance came and been notified of the accident in about half an hour. And I was taken to Cosford Hospital. RAF hospital near Wolverhampton. During that hospital, receiving first treatments for one week I had a chance to meet very famous doctor. Doctor who came and inspect the RAF hospital in Cosford. The name of that doctor was Sir Archibald McIndoe. He was one of the great plastic surgeon doctor based in Queen Victoria Hospital, East Grinstead, Sussex. He told me he was going to transfer me to his hospital and asked me if I will be happy to go there. I told him what I leave the decision to him as he was the person knowing better my situation. On the next day the ambulance took me to East Grinstead Hospital and in that hospital I found lots of, lots of different, my friends from the RAF. They were Canadians, Poles, Czechs, English and I felt I found myself like in a big family. I started my treatment under that plastic surgeon Sir Archibald McIndoe. He was to us airmen what from different accident, from different type of injury what we receive we treat him he was not only our big doctor but he was our friend. And we could not give him the greatest recognition how he try to do whatever possible to bring our disfigurement back to better future. After spending four months in East Grinstead I received quite a good improvement of my recovery and the hospital was very under big pressure. New cases were arriving day and night. Hospital for giving some burning airmen quite [pause] quite bigger recovery had to send them back to their units as they were short of beds. I receive that notice what I will be sent back to my station. When I received that notice and when I had my ticket, train ticket provided I arrived at my station and I had to report to my commanding officer. When my commanding officer saw me he asked me what I want to do. I looked at my commanding officer and I said to him, ‘Sir. What I want to do. I want to do what I’ve been trained to do. I want to fly.’ He looked at me and he said, ‘Warrant officer, in case you ever will be involved in some, in some type of possibility shot down over Germany you will be very unwelcome with your profile.’ I turned to my commanding officer and I replied, ‘Sir, maybe my future flying will not always be such an unfateful.’ Then I had to pass certain tests if I was fit enough to fulfil my professional responsibility in flying. And I was sent for two hour test with two doctors onboard on my plane. After having two hours flying we returned to base and the doctors told me what they will leave. They will leave the rest of the, of the, my experience and test of my flying with my commanding officer. On, after two days my commanding officer met me again and he said after seeing the report from my flying he said he has full confidence of giving me to continue my duty. I received my job as a, flying as a spare gunner in my station. And I continued to fly. I made eighteen operation over Germany and I was recalled to hospital to finish my treatment. When I returned to hospital, after three days my crew what I was flying went on bombing mission and were shot down. The pilot what I remember his name he was Squadron Leader Jan Konarzewski was killed and the navigator was killed. So many years I cannot remember the navigator name. The rest of the crew escaped from the German concentration camps. I’ve heard two of them, after when war finished they went to Canada. I don’t know what happened to the rest of the crew. When I finished my treatment in East Grinstead war ended. I was transferred to still serve in my service in station — Royal Air Force Station Andover in Hampshire. I was there on responsible duty to keep the aerodrome not be some time taken for training courses as local training courses some time were coming to the aerodrome and they were problem for the landing planes. We’d been doing, as I say guarding the aerodrome in Andover. So the aerodrome was always free for any landing plane. After three years I’d been asked to return to Dunholme Lodge Discharging Centre. I went to Dunholme Lodge from Andover Station and after two weeks I received my discharge. My demob suit, my demob shoes, two shirts and some compensation money. And that’s how I ended my service in the Royal Air Force in 1948. That’s about the end of my story. TO: Is it okay if we just pause there for a moment? DB: Yeah. [recording paused] TO: When you were growing up in Poland were people quite afraid of Russia? JSB: Yes. The people were in Russia yes. Will you ask me, tell me again please? TO: Were people worried about Russia and Stalin? JSB: Yes. Very much so because Stalin and Hitler made treaty between themselves and they arrange already partition of my country between Germany and Russia. So the Russia really was beginning cooperating with German when war started in Poland. Afterwards it ended quite different because instead of keeping such a friendship between those two countries they start to fight between themself because they knew sooner or later they are danger one to another. And we became also big saviour for the Russians when the Russians were invaded by the Germans. We gave them all our help to stop German such a big advance overrunning that big territory. Thanks to our supply with whatever armament we’ve been able to do it that stopped the German’s big blitzkrieg to make Russia become their occupation big land. Winter also came at the right time when the German advancement not succeeded as were planned. Russia, after the war received big recognition for in the end fighting on our side. But it also, they also should be thankful what they received. Very big help from us. And that’s why today are such a big nation with such a future ahead of them. We still feel now what the Russia could be much more helpful with us. Remembering the days when we all save big danger to overtake that burden. We succeeded together and the Russians should also remember what they must remember and be with us not against us. Yes. TO: And when you were at school had you been taught about the Polish War of Independence? JSB: Yes. Very much so. I’d been taught and I had very big patriotism for my country as my country being occupied by, for so long by the three superpower Germany, Russia and Austria. When we regained our independence after the First War we had only twenty years freedom time to rebuild our almost zero economy. War came too soon and we were grateful to have ally like England and France far away because we’d been surrounded by very unfriendly neighbours. Russia. Germany. That’s why today we Poles remember that England was one country when in the end they decided to tell Germans what if they invade Poland the war will be declared against them. That’s what England did and I think what England and Poles took that difficult decision to fight together and we today change Europe for the example to the rest of the world. I hope the people should remember the difficult days and try to remember how Europe today benefitting from our freedom and prosperity for seventy six years. Whatever young generation decide from now on that will be their decision. But I think they are capable more to continue to go in the same direction as we left after 1945. TO: And what was your favourite plane in the RAF? JSB: Yeah. My two favourite planes I think up to today, in early day, the Wellington was super bomber. But afterwards we’d been able to build much bigger, much more faster, much more superior plane, Lancaster — and I think Lancaster, Spitfire and Hurricane they were the planes what should be remembered for a long, long time to come. TO: Could you tell me about the conditions aboard a Wellington? JSB: Yeah. Wellington had the same, I would say a good name because the structure of a Wellington was very practicable, what — it was very upstanding to certain damage to it because the aluminium structure what was built in the Wellington structure was very practicable. And I think as the war started the Wellington will also leave good history for himself. TO: Yeah. Could you tell me about the, what it was like inside a Lancaster? JSB: Yeah. Lancaster was very manoeuvrable fast plane and had three gunners. Germans knew what he had quite a good defence for himself. They will always knew to attack Lancaster it was also a risk to themself and Lancaster was our saviour I think. And we had confidence in him what he always took us over the German sky and always we been happy when he brought us back. TO: And could you — what was the first ever mission you did over Europe? JSB: Yeah. The first mission what I made it was the most diverse experience what I had over the Gelsenkirchen because in our briefing we’d been told that the Germans had big factories what were producing lots of military hardware in that place. That was my first bombing mission and I had to face my first [pause] first my lesson how it look to be over enemy territory. TO: Can you tell me what you saw? JSB: Yeah. I saw lots of explosion. Lots of burning down below. Lots of searchlights. And it was hell. I was happy when we returned over the Channel. I felt it was like halfway to be home. Yeah. TO: And I’m sorry to ask this but did you ever find out what the defect was in that Wellington that caused the crash? JSB: Just, I don’t know but I know the one thing what during the early days sometime our planes were not hundred percent to be airworthy. But we could not always make complaints because if we complain sometime for some small what it was defect we be probably be treated as we are not happy to continue our responsible mission. Yeah. You see from in early day sometimes plane because it was such a big demand in continue training and the plane probably didn’t receive a hundred percent service capable under the pressure. But we did fly them because it was such a situation what we had not enough time to keep this plane in a hundred, hundred percent. And planes were under continuous very big pressure and small repairs and defects needed to be done. It was not to blame the people who serviced the plane but it was only because it was in such a hurry time what we had to do everything in short time. Yes. TO: I’m sorry. I know you’ve told me this before but there was a lot of background noise at the time. Could you, could you please give me the full description of — like what target you were going to on the mission where the crash happened. JSB: Yeah. Just before we went over the leaflets it was just normal briefing we received to drop these leaflets over the France. And the French people were probably reading these leaflets and hoping their liberation will come soon. But defect what was in the plane — no. We had not notice no defect before we took off. It just happened as we’d been returning to base. TO: And I’m sorry again but could you please tell me again what happened during the crash? Was the — please. JSB: Yeah. When before we crashed the pilot give us signal what the one engine receiving defect and we must prepare for crash landing. We, being near the aerodrome and we had not altitude to bale out but we had to crash. And during that crash that’s what happened. I came out and my crew was killed. TO: And other than the pilot who else was aboard the plane? Who else was aboard the plane other than you and the pilot? JSB: The pilot notify us on intercom what we will be committed to crash land. And that’s what happened. We’d be near to the base but we could not reach the aerodrome and we crashed before the aerodrome. TO: And how did you feel when you woke up? You regained consciousness — JSB: Yeah. When I recovered the consciousness I was still dazed. Yes. After that terrific impact you know what we receive. But I quickly came to [pause] to break my memory what we have to get out of that burning plane as soon as possible. And myself, instead of looking for exit I went to save the pilot hoping that he was still alive. I don’t know if he was still alive or he was half dead but I couldn’t take him from his seat because I think he was still tied up with the belt. Yes. I could not see it because you know I had to cover my face with my hand because the flame was all over it. The plane was engulfed in the fire and when I found that exit, the broken exit I was already my kombinezon was burning and the people who came because we’d been near the aerodrome and those people were professional because they always been expecting sooner or later some crashes do happen. You know what I mean. When they live close by. They had courage to come quite close and help to undo my burning, you know, flying suit. Yes. But I was already then my helmet was thrown out you see during the impact and I was already all my hair, my head was badly burned. And my hands up to, up to here you see were all badly burned, yes. TO: When did the ambulance arrive? JSB: In about half an hour. An ambulance took me to RAF Hospital Cosford near Wolverhampton, but I was in terrific pains. And thanks to the different morphine what I was given to ease my pains I was put to sleep but the pain continue for many, many days. But after each day I notice what I was recovering slightly and we were given from the hospital staff always their great encouragement what you will in the end become as more as we were before. Probably we make improvement but the small marks always will be left for the rest of the life. Yes. [recording paused] TO: And did the plane actually explode? JSB: Yes. After the still petrol what was inside plane did explode and I was lucky to be little distance from the plane because if I would be still inside that was the end. So they got me still on my side after the crash. Yes. TO: And when did you first meet McIndoe? JSB: Yeah. The doctor McIndoe, he used to inspect different hospitals in different parts in England. And at one time he visit RAF hospital in Cosford. When he saw me he told me he will ask for my transfer to his hospital in East Grinstead, Sussex because he told me in that hospital they have much bigger, much better facilities for big burns and big damages to different parts of the corpse. And he asked me will I like to go to that hospital. I told him, ‘Doctor McIndoe, I leave it to you. And I hope your advice will be more than me deciding what to do.’ And I was very happy when I arrived in East Grinstead Hospital because I met so many boys with the same. With the same burns and different damages in our life. I was feeling like I am in big family. And the people in that town, East Grinstead, they were so friendly to us what we are always we remember that town as it is our very friendly town when people never stare at us no matter in what condition we did look they accept us. And we will be grateful to them what they treat us as we were part of that little town. TO: Did you have a girlfriend during the war? JSB: Yes. Yes. I did meet a girlfriend. And after some few days during my holiday when I met her we became friends. And she asked me what happen to me when war ends. I told her this is big story. I cannot tell her. If I can tell her because I told her the war always bring very unexpectedly changes. But then were small question. If ever war end if we will continue our friendship. I had no alternative. Only thinking what such a promise probably can be given. And when war ended and my wife in the end came to visit me when I was in hospital I was so grateful because I had no family, no really friends to come and see me in that hospital. And when she came and visit me in hospital I was so proud of myself and of her what I had somebody who came to see me. At one time I asked her, I said to her, ‘Look. You came from London to see me in East Grinstead. I said that was lots of problem for you to came that distance.’ She looked at me and she told me if I want to listen to her why she came to see me. I said, ‘Yes. Do tell me.’ She said, ‘Look. On your next bed you have your friend also. English pilot. He has his father and mother with him.’ She said, ‘There further on you see another, your friend have some other friends.’ And she said, ‘You are in your bed. You have nobody.’ And she said, ‘That’s why I felt I must come and see you because probably your family is far away. And that’s what made me to come and see you.’ Those words I will remember for the rest of my life. Now, I’m old man. I can’t go to Poland. I can’t go to my sister in Argentine. But I bury my wife in Gunnersbury Cemetery, west of London and I promised her if ever anything happened to me I will be buried with her. And that’s why, why I’m living in London. Because I know my history is here. What we did during the war. How we fought the war. How we ended the war. And I think for that reason I call England as my most, most, the first place where I want to end my life. That’s really truth you know because that’s I buried my wife and I promised her I would be buried with her and that’s what it will be because I think if I go nobody will look her grave or nobody will bother. You see that was during the war. How it brings people sort of together you see. But people today war long time gone and don’t remember those days. Yes. TO: When you’d come back from a bombing mission did you ever find out how successful your mission had been? JSB: Yes. Yeah. Because we had to take photo during the mission. From beginning it was not such a demanding responsibility. But as war start to continue we had to bring much more, much more improvement in our missions. What we had to bring better results of our bombing and we had to bring the photographs. Where we bombed and how near we’d been able to bomb the targets what it was in demand. So, it was very, very important what to drop whatever our mission was to do it the most effectively. In the right spot. And that’s where in the end we were so proud what we’d been making such a great bigger direct hits in the spots what needed to be destroyed. Thanks to the new improvement in our recognition and in our new invention of bombing. TO: And were you ever involved in attacks on Hamburg? JSB: No. No. I never. I’d been on Essen, Dusseldorf, Gelsenkirchen and many others what I probably now don’t remember you see after so many years. But we had different targets and different targets we knew were much more heavily defended. So we always during the briefing we knew what targets were more difficult than the other ones. They were all always danger because, because the Germans had very superior defence you know and they always, always been trying to give us very hectic time over their sky, over their city and over their land. But whatever they did they never could close door against us. We’d been always telling them whatever superiorities they had in the past but we will be still coming over their sky, over their city and over their land and they were not able to stop us. TO: Did you ever see any night fighters? JSB: Yes. I saw once and I thought he was going to attack us. Yes. And I was giving pilot instruction what the German Messerschmitt 109 is probably trying to shoot us down. I don’t know for what reason he kept certain distance as I kept him in my sight. And I was thinking when he come closer I will give pilot instruction to make different movements to get off his gunsight because as he was following us I knew he will try to catch us in his gunsight. But the distance was still far. We continued the flight and I was hoping what probably soon I would have to give pilot my instruction. I don’t know for what reason he didn’t commit his attack. Maybe, I don’t know, he felt or he had certain also risk to do it. I don’t know. Or maybe he wanted to return to base because sometimes they were short of fuel you see. And that’s also probably you saw them but they were probably already thinking how to come back to base. So the fighters, not all the time they come and determined to shoot you down. You see probably, probably they think what they also taking certain risk when they come because whatever defence you had you always had also difference you see. They had superior because they had much longer distance to open the fire and what would be effective. And they were much more manoeuvrable. Yes. But also depends. You don’t know who was flying in them. Because some were more determined to do, proceed with their action. Some probably thought they already made enough, you know, success during that night. That’s difficult to be sure you know what some but they also had pilot more determined to do their duty and they had some pilot probably who thought different way. TO: And what kind of anti-aircraft guns were the Germans using? JSB: Oh they were bad. They were bad. They, they used to catch us in the searchlight and when they catch you in searchlight you have so difficult to get out of them you see because they catch you from different direction. And when they catch you in you are blind you see, in it. So what you do? You do whatever manoeuvre you do. You turn your plane left, right just to get out of escape from those and during that time the fighters if they are in the near area they also see you from the distance. So they at the same time have terrific advantage to come and finish you off you see. When even you escape from the searchlights you see they afterwards will continue their attack. Searchlights was very, the very ones they catch you, you be really in trouble to get out of those searchlights and many times, many times you you’ve been tried to avoid when you saw them on the sky. You’ve been always trying somehow to dodge them but not every time, you know you’ve been able to dodge them. And some targets were much more equipped with the defence of searchlights than the other. We’d been usually try to avoid on going on bombing mission because we had good knowledge different places what had bigger defence than the other places and sometime we been even changing courses you know [pause] our journey so put the Germans always more uncertain of our direction of our mission. Yes. Yeah. TO: Could you see anti-aircraft shells exploding? JSB: Anti-aircraft — ? TO: Shells exploding. JSB: Oh yes. Yes. I, I have had sometime, or brought small shrapnel holes when they explode in the air. Yes. Many times we almost, when we came and saw the shrapnel just damage in certain parts of the plane we were almost kissing the plane what he was able to bring us down and still capable to come back. And they were soon quickly repaired if the damage wasn’t too serious here. Sometimes you see when this, they explode they will touch with big force and do big damage. Sometimes smaller shrapnel explode it will make hole but luckily depends where it touch you see. One sometimes it, it make hole but not manage to damage your fuel supply or something you see. The plane will continue [unclear] Yes. It depends. Sometimes they explode. When they explode in bigger, bigger say pieces and such a big piece you know when he hit you it almost you have nothing else. If you have chance to bale out or sometime the plane is going without any chance to survive. Yes. But the Germans had very strong defence because they had for so many years of well train the people you see because the bombing was continue night after night and during all those nights of experiences it gives much capability to be such effective. Yes. Yes. TO: And what was the procedure for when you reached the target and bombs were dropped? JSB: You just, when you drop your bomb you think you are half home because there’s nothing more danger when you are going on the target with full load. Because even if you are attacked by fighter during that time you cannot do sharp manoeuvring with your plane because your plane is very heavy when loaded. So when you go to the target is always the most danger journey. Once you drop over target you just put full throttle and get far from the target as possible and afterwards hoping for the best. Yes. To your way home. TO: And what did you think of the RAF leaders? JSB: I think what our Bomber Harris, the leader from the Bomber Command I think he did the most recognition for succeeding. Such an effective bombing as he taught to us what we will be one of the most destructive weapon to make German to surrender. Because from beginning the Germans had always better equipment. Better [pause] I don’t know better, always system what we could not face to their superiority but the Bomber Command always dictated the terms. And whatever Germans did against us they never could stop us going over their sky, over their cities, over their other well defended parts of the country. And Bomber Command, without Bomber Command there would be very difficult to win the war. We did the biggest damage to their industry. To whatever defence they thrown against us. They couldn’t stop us to succeed. Our superiority. TO: And what year or what years were you doing bombing raids? JSB: 1943. Yes. ’43. That was some time in, in November. November. Yes. TO: Do you want to take a break for lunch at all? JSB: No. No. No. No. DB: How much longer do you want to — TO: Well, I’m really enjoying this so — DB: [laughs] TO: I have about another half an hour left of battery on here so — DB: Okay. So shall we just — TO: If I have more questions after that would it be okay to take a lunch break and then have another chat this afternoon. DB: That’s up to — TO: Would that — JSB: Yeah. TO: We have another half an hour on here. JSB: Yes. That’s alright. TO: Would it be okay if I have more questions to speak to you after lunch? JSB: Yes. Yes. TO: Okay. Did you, did you hear about the Holocaust? JSB: Yes. Yes. I did hear about the Holocaust because it was obvious what the Hitler regained his super power in Germany and we knew by always telling to the German people what in the First War the Germans lost the war because the very rich Americans industries was Jewish big people — involve America in defeating the Germans in the First War. And he, after the war always blamed what the rich American big Jewish businessmen were the one who made that decision to defeat the Germans because they already notice what in Germany was certain building anti, anti-Jewish feeling. And he continue with that always. I would say complaints. What the Germans should never accept the defeat in the Second War and by doing so he gained very big popularity. And that’s how he start to build his recognition in Germany. What he will try to do something what just would never happen again. And after such a lot of promises what he start giving to the German people he was heading for the second preparing German nation for the Second War. Yes. And as he did prepare the German people they refused to pay their compensation for the, whatever was enforced on them after the First War. The German anti-Semitism start increasing. They start doing lots of unnecessary damage to lots of Jewish population in Germany. And of course it was obvious what those anti-Semitism was increasing. Poland received before the war certain amount of Jewish population what had been forced to leave the Germany. And we received lots of Jewish population because they were very helpful to my country. They were business people. They brought economy quicker recovery. And we knew what in Germany before the war anti-semity start to increase. So I did believe in Holocaust during the war because I start somehow getting information from Poland what’s happening. Not only to the Jewish people and to the Polish people and we had sympathy. We Poles had sympathy for the Jewish people and Polish people in reverse you see. So I didn’t from beginning never thought of gas chambers what they start to modernise such a barbaric destruction. But I knew what the Germany anti-Semitism did exist. I was young going to school. In my school in Poland we had different nation. We had German. We had Ukrainian. We had Polish. We had Jewish. But at school in my days there was very strong discipline. I could not be unfriendly to any of those different nation because it was severe punishment for it. And I thought whatever in Poland in short years freedom we had very strong democratic system. And I’m only sorry that that freedom didn’t lasted longer. But still Hitler was very unfriendly man and he is to blame for the suffering what he give to so many people. What today the Europe should remember and never go back to those days again. TO: Did you hear about the uprising in Warsaw? JSB: Yes. Yes. I’ve heard. I’ve heard you know what was there was Jewish people whatever they had they’d been defending themself because they knew what they had to unite themself. And how bravely they did unite and start doing their uprising and what, what consequences they paid for it. But they knew they had no alternative. Only the last resort it was to fight. Whatever they had to arm to fight with. The Jewish people should never because they in every country they helpful because they are business people. They bring business and help to the economy and I’m I, I think in Poland if we today would have more Jewish population my country probably would make better prospect. But still so many Jewish people from Eastern Europe being murdered and small amount what survived went back to liberate their country. TO: Did you hear in 1944 when the Polish Resistance took over Warsaw? JSB: Yeah. Yes. I remember that time. And I knew already what that resistance, what had happened would be no good to the Polish nation. But it was too late to stop the people because they went under so much hatred towards the Germans and they wanted to be liberated after so many years occupation destruction. But we already we could have won the war without uprising in Warsaw but the people were prepared to liberate themself soon as possible. They just couldn’t wait no longer. And they paid heavy price for it. And that’s how some time when people take decision what it doesn’t bring much success but probably oppression what they suffer for so long they had to as they started they decided to go and they not receive from our ally — Russians at that time, help, you know, what should have been given to those poor people what fought same as people fought in Stalingrad. Yes. TO: And what do you think was the most important battle of the war? JSB: Yes. Most important battle of the war. I think the most important battle of the war it was Battle of Britain because that was our first big success. But it wasn’t a victory in my, as a military man I knew what the Germans still had so much power. And they really from my, whatever little knowledge I had what the Germans always wanted somehow to pressurise England to come to some treaty because they knew if they would invade England they would involve themself in very, very serious occupation. And they knew what that occupation probably will destroy their victory. They were going different turnings against England somehow. Not to invade because invasion would put so much responsibility of keeping, you know the victory over England. So I would say the biggest, our victory in battle it was to stop invasion of this country. But the Germans had many other plans still in their pocket. Blockading what was very effective. On the same sort America was involved in conflict. But it became our great help to win the war. So I think the Japanese forced America to come to war what helped us a lot to win the war. And I think we must remember what from the beginning we fought alone and it was very difficult war. And we must always still remember what Europe always been fighting and even we don’t know what if we are not continue our peace as we up to now holding. What could happen afterwards. Because you see I really think what America probably in the First War came to help us to win the First War because it was also very difficult war. We remember how many people we lost in the First War. In the Second War American people been warning President Roosevelt they don’t want to be involved in the European war and Americans been supplying us with lots of essential help what we needed. Yes. That’s true. Because that was great also help to us. But without America we would probably found it very difficult to continue. And I think the Japan who attacked America that’s when the victory start slowly to change on our side because Americans give us lots of things what we’d been needing to continue the war and to gain the victory. TO: Shall we pause there for a while? DB: Yeah. TO: Yeah. [recording paused] TO: How did you feel when you heard about Chamberlain signing the Munich Agreement? JSB: I felt what Mr Chamberlain was very badly always promised by Hitler during the previous meetings. And in the end Mr Chamberlain, our prime minister noticed what the Hitler was not fulfilling his promises as it started. And in the end I must give the prime minister my full recognition what he did the right decision what, knowing what he no longer believed Hitler future promises. And in the end when England, France and Poland had not aggression treaty arranged Mr Chamberlain, Prime Minister of England decided what he would no longer will believe and tolerate the German expansion. And when the Germans attacked Poland in 1939 Mr Chamberlain had promised Polish people if such thing happened then England, France and Poland will enter into the conflict with Germany. He did. And whatever may be certain mistakes were done before the invasion I’m grateful what Mr Chamberlain made promises, kept his promises and took those very big, big decision to don’t believe Germans no longer and only declare the war on Germany. I think that was the right decision in the right time. Without those decision we probably would be not in the same Europe as we are now. TO: And how did you feel when you heard about the Yalta Agreement? JSB: Yes. Thank you. Yes. The Yalta Agreement. I give full recognition for Mr Churchill plan and decision but I think during the Yalta meetings the Americans and the Russians play bigger parts of the deciding how Europe should be divided. I think England in those days should had much bigger saying in that decision. But the Russians was already made big European power. Stalin demanded very big concession in Europe and Mr Churchill was uncapable to be against those Yalta plans as they were mostly decided by the America, Russia and England. That’s why lots of Eastern European countries instead of being free and maybe much sooner in the part of Europe they been given to the Russian domination, Russian exploitation for more than forty years after the war. That’s why Europe is still today not united probably. Not more prosperous as it should have been if the Yalta Agreement was not made with some mistakes. But during those big decision which took part in Yalta the Americans thought they were still playing the biggest part in the world decision by having already super superpower in their atomic weapon and hoping what with that weapon they will be able to continue the future superpower in the world without believing what soon or later the Russians will be able also to get closer to that super atomic power. And this happened. When this did happen the Europe was still under big military threat from the Russians part. And it took so many years to pay heavily for mistake what been committed in Yalta Agreement. TO: When you were, first came to Britain from Argentina did most of the Poles that you were with already speak English? JSB: No. During that time I had little edge over my countrymen because as we were sailing towards Argentine and I was young at that time we’d been told what if we speak English when we arrive in Argentine it will be quite the bigger help for the future to have better jobs and to have some better position in life. I started to learn English on my voyage towards the Argentine because I was young and I knew the time was changing and I have to learn the new life in the new world. So when I came to England beginning of the war I was little more advanced in my English than lots of my countrymen who start arriving from different parts of Europe to this country. TO: Can you tell me about the training that you went through to be a gunner? JSB: My training started in Blackpool. That was our Polish RAF centre. First we learned recognition of different German planes during at night on the cinema screens. Knowing when sometime we will be bombing Germany, flying over Germany not to shoot down our planes because sometime at night is very difficult to recognise the aircraft between British aircraft and German aircraft. But we’d been specially trained at cinemas at night so we always could recognise the shape of the plane. How the shapes of the planes look of the German construction and how the shapes looked of the English construction. And in the end, even at night we learned those thing. How to be careful sometimes. Not to shoot on our planes. TO: Did you ever have to fire the guns during a mission? JSB: Did I fire the gun? TO: Fire the guns during a mission. JSB: I, no I never, never had the chance of shooting down German aircraft because during my eighteen operation we passed through lots of difficult times of searchlights, shell exploding from anti-aircraft. Many other incidents. But I never had chance to opening the fire on none of the German planes because I was lucky probably. But during my operational tours we not had that engagement with the Germans night fighters. TO: And how do you feel about the bombing of Dresden? JSB: Yes. Dresden was bombed in two nights in succession and during the day by the, also American they bomb it. I think Dresden was bombed because in Dresden the Germans had still big amount concentration of German special units which were very bad. Very much, very much prepared to take part in contra-Russian advance and I think that’s was probably the reason why Dresden was so badly bombed and destroyed. Because the Germans concentrated in that part of the country still unexpected big amount of military units which were endangering — endangering our, our advancement in our [pause] our entering into lots of territories in Germany. Without destroying the Dresden the Germany still had very big unexpected for us probably their plan which we destroyed those reserve what they had this plan before the Germans could draw them into the action. TO: Could you please tell me about the medals that you have there? JSB: Yes. Medals what I have. First is Polish Cross of Valour. Second is Polish Air Force medal. Third is Aircrew over Europe. Fourth is King George. Sixth is Lancaster Bomber medal what was awarded to us after the war. TO: Were you given the Cross of Valour for the Wellington bomber crash? Why were you given the Cross for Valour? JSB: Because that Polish is when you prove what you committed some great honour defending your country and your own honour. TO: Could you describe the procedure for taking off in the bomber? JSB: Procedure? TO: Taking off procedure. JSB: Yeah. Taking off, it was always the most danger part of our, of our journey. The pilot will come to the starting point, test for the last minute all his four engines and getting permission to start from flying control. During that time if any defect could happen the plane is almost in the most dangerous situation what you could find yourself. After take-off, once you regained certain height, altitude, you feel the pilot can lower the throttle of his engine because the plane already give the big strength to lift the load what we had to take to our destination. TO: Can you tell me about the landing procedure? JSB: Landing procedure was always the happiest point of our journey because we were believing what whatever happened in those times we are in our home close to our accommodation. And that was the happiest part of our journey and happy to come and talk about our mission what we went through that night. TO: Can you tell me about the briefings? The briefings you would have. JSB: The briefing always was to us very partly scary because we’d been always told what journey is ahead of us and we always knew what during that journey anything could happen. So before we took off we always give ourselves hand. Whatever happened we will always remember each other. But the biggest happiness always happened when we returned and talk of our successes. Returned home. TO: How would you describe morale amongst the crew? JSB: Morale with the crew was always high because we knew what we were making progress in closer to our victory. But sometime when we returned from our mission and sometime we lost one or two crews it was very depressing days for few days. Seeing the tables when previously people sat having their food. Lunches or dinners. And that depressing mood sometime lasted for the quite a few days. But that was the war. We’d been prepared to have and face happier days and much more depressing days. TO: And what did you do to entertain yourselves? JSB: Yes. Thank you. Entertaining days always were happier when sometimes we could not take off because it was foggy or sometime the meteorological weather not possible for continue to do our missions. Some of us were playing bridge, some of us were playing snooker, some of us were having nice happy pint of beer discussing the past experience what we had. And hoping what we achieve soon victory and we would be able to celebrate the victory and sometime visit our families at home and tell them about our past what we had to serve during the war. TO: And what’s your happiest memory of the war? JSB: The happiest memory of the war. It was in May when it was declared of the German surrender. During that night I got myself so drunk what I don’t remember how I got home but I was brought by my friends. My friends were older than me so they could withstand the more spirit which they drank. I was younger and not such experience. I got myself so badly drunk I don’t remember how I got home. But the next day I got so happy with very, very sore head. And I only drank cup of tea the next day. That was the truth. TO: Were there any particularly popular songs that you liked? JSB: The most popular song we had a lovely girl who sang to us this song that, “One sunny day we will meet again.” And that song when I hear even now it bring me back. And I, I am old now but I still feel what I am young because that song gave us so much spirit. The beautiful memory, melody and the beautiful words that were in that song. TO: On board the, when you were on a mission did you speak to each other in Polish? JSB: Yes. Yes. We spoke completely in our Polish. We were under British command but the crew were all briefed in Polish and we had better, better understanding speaking our own language than probably not a hundred percent what we could speak English in those days. TO: How did you feel when you heard about the D-Day landings? JSB: D-Day. D-Day. I land myself outside Buckingham Palace. And I will remember those days also to my dying days because the crowd was so much outside Buckingham Palace. The King George, the Queen Mother and the rest of the royal family had to come on balcony and also show people what they still with the crowd outside. This happened in my memory about four times. What they used to come on balcony and wave to us. Go back inside in to palace and the crowd was still without moving from outside the palace. Then again people start to demand what they want to see the royal family. Again the doors on balcony were opened and the royal family will come on balcony. Acknowledge that they were still with the crowd. That was continue to the very early hours of the morning. That live, memory also for the rest of my life. Yes. TO: What films did you watch during the war? JSB: Film. I watch. The most film what I will remember when I land myself in RAF Hospital Cosford and film was Bing Crosby, “White Christmas.” It was Christmas Eve and I was in, in a small room in that hospital with dim light. And it, that memory overcame and I start to cry. And two nurses came and they talked to me and I was feeling ashamed what I cry because that song overtook me for some reason. Maybe because I was far away from home. I don’t know. But that song I will remember also for a long time to come. TO: Was it very cold aboard the bombers? Was it cold aboard the bombers? JSB: Yes. It was cold before the bombing but we’d been always dressed up to stand up the cold high altitude. But we could plug our electric contacts what we were connected to our flying suits. So we’d be more, more always warm from be prepare from what we meet over enemy territory and not thinking much about the cold. But the cold always was on high altitude. If anything could have gone wrong with the heating would have been very severe danger to the human life. TO: Could you see much on the ground when you were on a bombing mission? JSB: Yes. At night when we used to fly over enemy territory when it was moonlight it was mostly danger nights what we had to face. We always knew what during those nights we face much more danger than in some nights when they were slightly over clouded. So we always, in case of emergency having unexpected meeting with the Germans fighters we could without hesitating hide ourselves inside. Into the cloud when even the Germans will avoid to follow us because they knew they would face just as much danger themselves as they could inflict on us. TO: And on missions were you part of a bomber stream? Were you in a bomber stream on a mission? TO: Was I in the mission on a bomb — TO: Were you with a lot of other bombers when you were flying? Were there other bombers around you on a mission? JSB: Yeah. Oh yes thank you. Yes, yes thank you ask me that question. The most danger part was when we’d been approaching the bombing target and the bomb airman was directing pilot right on the target. During that time some time were incidents when the close one of our plane was approaching slightly from small different direction. And you had to avoid. Continue straight course and release your bomb because it would involve you in collision with near approaching our own plane. So what you do? You making the turning and during that turning you lose lots of distance to turn back and do return approach to the target. During that time is most dangerous to collide with another approaching aircrafts coming on the same target. Or delaying your return from the target when lots of German fighters during that time hunting for last returning plane. This is the most danger part. If during your approach on target something happen what probably you have to turn and make second approach because you’re losing your return home. And during that time lots of Germans fighters still in the area what you are victim of return. TO: And did you ever feel any animosity towards Germany? JSB: Yes. Yes. Yes. I, I felt very much so. Because not only because I disliked the Germans but I didn’t like their new approach. What they felt, what that they had superiority over the other people. I thought we were, whatever nationality we all were able to do the same as the Germans did. And for that reason because the Germans they inflicted in your generation what they were superior to the other nation. This I didn’t believe and this I didn’t like. And I thought what they must never think for the future of the same superiority than the other nation. TO: And how do you feel today about Germany? JSB: Thank you. Yes. Today I think the Germany change. Very much so because in the last two wars they knew what the military, military involvements never bring good result. I think Germany pass lots of changes since the old days. They had much more understanding leaders since. They have, I would say the most outstanding chancellor lady Merkel recently and I think also having their [pause] their Pope in Rome what brought to Germany more recognition of the Catholic religion. Germany make terrific understanding what Europe is more united today and more friendly as it was in the past. TO: And do you think Bomber Command was treated unfairly? JSB: No. I think Bomber Command we partly adopted the lessons from the Germans. What they badly used about some very incapable countries of self defence. And in the end we learn those tactics what they were brutal and very effective on to destroy people morale and destruction but we used them not starting those methods. We use them as a self defence because we learn from the Germans. But in the end we had superiority of that most super power of Bomber Command because we built more planes for the right time and we used those bombing because by using that strength we speed up the end of the war. Without having Bomber Command I think the war would continue for many years to come. TO: And how did you feel when you heard that Russia had occupied Poland? JSB: Yes. I thought to myself, I felt to myself when the Germans invade Poland how the Russians stabbed my country in the back. If the Russians would invade Poland soon after the Germans invaded we probably still fought Germans for longer time because eastern part of Poland there were more difficult for German blitzkrieg armed division to move forward. We’d been capable to defend the rest of our country for quite a few more weeks to come. But the Russians came and helped them. So we had no chance to fight against two superpower. And the Russians been always to Poland same unfriendly nation as the Germans. TO: Is there anything else about your time in the air force which was important to you which you’ve not told me about which you would like to say? JSB: If — TO: Anything important that you’ve not mentioned that you want to talk about. JSB: No. I think that’s all that I could tell and what I experienced and remember from the war. I think when I joined as a volunteer I’m happy what, how I started and how I ended because my country today is free and I’m happy what my country have recognition and the honour in the world. Thanks for England what England had courage to have treaty with Poland and during, at such danger days the England came in defence of the Poland with France and I think that’s why today we have free Europe and the rest of the world. So Europe is example to other nation what they must live in peace and to do the same as Europe did in 1939. TO: Thank you very much. It was fantastic hearing about your story. JSB: Thank you. What I’ve been able I’m not politician. Only part of military men. I’ve been trying, you know to tell you that. TO: Thank you. JSB: Thank you Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AStangryciukBlackJ160710, PStangryciukBlackJ1701 Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jan Black. One Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Language A language of the resource eng Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 02:31:57 audio recording Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tom Ozel Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-07-10 Description An account of the resource Jan Black flew operations as an air gunner with 300 Squadron. He was badly burned when his aircraft crashed during a training flight and became a member of the Guinea Pig Club. He underwent 10 operations at East Grinstead Hospital. He describes his early life in Poland and Argentina; enlisting; training as an air gunner and being was posted to 18 OTU, RAF Bramcote; his plane crash and being burned. Whilst on a return stay at hospital, the crew he had flown with were shot down on a bombing operation. After the end of the war, he spent three years at RAF Andover and then was demobbed at RAF Dunholme Lodge. He talks about the relationships between Poland, Russia, Germany, Austria and England before, during and after the war. He gives his opinions of Wellingtons and Lancasters and describes his first operation over Europe. He describes his crash landing again. He talks again about his treatment and time in hospital and about his plane crash and mentions Archibald McIndoe. He describes taking photographs of aerial bombings and the German defence of targets and night fighting against Messerschmitt 109s. He talks about shrapnel damage to aircraft; bomb drops; ‘Bomber Harris’; the Holocaust; anti-Semitism; the ‘Uprising in Warsaw’ and the Battle of Britain. He discusses the Munich Agreement and the Yalta Agreement; learning English; his training in identifying aircraft; the bombing of Dresden; his medals; take-offs and landings; briefings and morale. He describes the entertainment they devised; the popular songs; speaking Polish on the intercom when on ops; being outside Buckingham Palace on D Day; dangers over the target and Bomber Command's bombing campaign. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Argentina Germany Great Britain Poland England--Warwickshire England--East Grinstead Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942-10 1943 1944 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Carolyn Emery Maureen Clarke 18 OTU 300 Squadron air gunner aircrew anti-Semitism crash demobilisation fear final resting place Guinea Pig Club Holocaust killed in action McIndoe, Archibald (1900-1960) Me 109 military service conditions Operational Training Unit perception of bombing war RAF Andover RAF Bramcote RAF Cosford searchlight training Warsaw airlift (4 August - 28 September 1944) Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/333/8766/PStangryciukBlackJ1701.jpg 7833673268b4133cfbed42ada1200c7c https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/333/8766/AStangryciukBlackJ170314.mp3 c18b97cc9486526d7fd01b40171ef5f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Black, Jan Jan Stangryciuk-Black Jan Stangryciuk J Black J Stangryciuk-Black J Stangryciuk Description An account of the resource Two oral history interviews with Jan Black (formerly Stangryciuk)(1922 - 2023, 794829 Royal Air Force). Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-07-10 2017-03-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context StangryciukBlack, J Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 14th of March 2017 and I’m in London with Jan Black, who came from Poland originally and we’re going to ask him what, what about, what he did in his life. What are the earliest recollections of life that you have Jan? JB: In Poland? CB: Yes. JB: Yes, I was, my people were farmers in Poland and of course I was going to school and helping, you know, my parents you see. Agriculture worked in. Yes. And then when my family decided to emigrate to Argentine and in 1934 we had all the docs, immigration documentation complete we went by sea to Argentine and we dock in Buenos Aires. That’s the capital city of Argentine. Then after, after [pause] seeing different part of Argentine my family settled in province named Misiones. That was big province near Brazil, Brazilian boarder. Then, then I starts school in Argentine to learn Spanish and to uplift my further education. Then after living four years in Argentine the war broke out in Poland and my country was invaded by the Germans in September 1939 and after ten days the Russians attacked my country from the east. To me it was very sad time hearing all the news and destruction what my people start to suffer under the German and the Russian occupation. And every day I was reading in the newspaper how continuously different, different system was in force on my people and I start to feel very sad for my country. Then after about three months, in the Polish newspaper printed in Argentine, there was very happy news I receive. What the Polish people and the ordination could volunteer to come to England and to join armed forces and to fight against the Germans. I went from my homeland in Argentine to capital city Buenos Aires to the centre, where we had to report our intentions of joining as volunteers and to come to England. When I arrive at that centre we’d been check by medical board and we had tell them why we decide such a decision to come. And it was very straight forward answer, what we just wanted to go and fight against aggressive occupation of unfriendly nation. After having medical check up, we’d been asked when we would like to go to England. I told them soon as possible and the person who was in charge at that time told me what they will check my health and if I want to go soon they will notify me in two weeks, and they told me I can go home and wait for the next information. After two weeks I receive letter and a ticket, railway ticket that I can come to certain centre in Buenos Aires, the capital city, and I would be accommodated in one hotel. When I, on the second day, came to the meeting place I notice that there were different nationality volunteers. Polish, English, French and I was very happy what different nations also were coming as a volunteers. We’d been told in that hotel what we must keep our secret about our destination because there was lot of Germans espionage during that time circling in that part of the city. We’d been told what our departure will be very short notice given and be prepared on such an event. Then one evening notice was given to us at six o’clock and we’d been told what we will get transport to board on the big British liner from Buenos Aires port, when the big boat will take us to England. The name of that boat, I remember, it was the name Highland Monarch belonging to the British Royal Mail Line. That company had four big liners continuously travelling between England and Argentine and they, what they, during that travelling between England and Argentine there were, they were bringing lots of meat from Argentine to England. I say food for the war days during the difficult times. When we started our journey at night, at twelve o’clock, very secretly we had been told what we must be very alert because our journey will be continuously in danger from the German submarine or big German battleship which are circling on the Atlantic Ocean. We’d been told to be always , have ready, wear jackets in case the boats get sunk, we will have life jacket attached and the boat was continuously during the journey not going on a straight course only circling, zigzagging to avoid be spotted and sank by the German submarine. The journey starting from Buenos Aires to England took, instead of three weeks, took four weeks because the boat was zigzagging and loosing lots of shorter distance between England and South America. When we came closer to England we’d been told what our boat would dock in Belfast, Northern Ireland because to come closer would be much more danger as during that time the Germans continuously kept bombing our port on west from western approach. When our boat disembarked us we’d been taken to the local hotel for a couple of days and then we were taken to Scotland to some military barracks centre. And then again we had to pass the second medical board from the doctors. Doctors during our medication and inspection bought us, ask us what armed forces we would you like join. We had choice to serve in the Royal Navy, Army, Air Force or other forces. I was young and I thought the most exciting service would be Air Force. The doctors told me what my medical board said it was good enough and I, if I want to serve in the Royal Air Force I can make already decision what I will be, will be accepted. Then we’d been accommodated in some army barracks in Scotland and start telling us what now we will be sent to different centre when we start to continue our trainings. My selection was decided to send me to Blackpool where was Polish RAF centre for beginning my training to start learn of my future responsibility. After studying such trainings for months will be taken to special RAF centre. The centre it was 18 OTU Bramcote. When we start to continues the next training with flying. That training was very exciting for young men like myself, but it was very speedy training. We had not too much time to have, for other exciting moments. Training was long hours of different responsibility to get us ready, equip for responsibility we would be facing for our future flying. I was happy to start my training flying on Wellingtons to wing engine bomber at that time and I knew that soon I will be selected to the operational squadrons, but during that time we had to go on evening [unclear] training. During take-off my Wellington had fault in one engine during take-off. We crash during that take-off and I lost consciousness during the impact of our crash. When I recover my memory I could see what part of my plane was in flames. I start walk to the front of my plane and see what happening to the rest of my friends. When I reach the position where my pilot was sitting I saw him in his special seat. I did try to get him out of the burning plane but he was still strapped in his seat and during that time the plane was quickly increase in the bigger burning flames. I knew and I could see how to un-strap him from his seat and I cover my left side of my face because the flames were obstructing and burning my visibility and helping myself with the right of my hand looking for exit from the burning plane. Luckily at moving inside in that burning plane, I was lucky to see what my plane during the impact had crack in its construction and there was broken exit from that plane what I was lucky to squeeze myself from the small hole of my burning plane, but I already couldn’t see normal because my eyes were already damaged from very strong flame was burning round the plane. I start to crawl a certain distance from my plane and the local people found us. Came to my rescue and they torn my burning combination suit because without that help I would be completely burned to die. I was so lucky what those people were so brave and came so close to that burning plane and they took me inside into their local house but I couldn’t see nothing because my visible, visibility was damaged. But they told me that they had already telephoned for ambulance to come. In about half an hour ambulance came and they took me gently into RAF Hospital Cosford near Wolverhampton. I was in terrific pain. I was so happy to be dead at that time because it was such a painful experience what I had to go in my lifetime. But the doctors soon came to my rescue. They told me don’t worry your pain soon will stop. I didn’t believe them but they had the answer to it. They give me certain tablets and I think some injection to stop my pain. When I recover my memory, I think it was the next day, I could not see nothing because my eyes were damaged but the doctor came and talked to me and told me that I will be making progress with their help. I thanked them very much but the most biggest thing I receive from them was my pain was already under control. Then my small recovery started day by day. [clock chiming] The nurses every day would take me to the bathroom, put me into the bath and gently try to remove my bandage that I was strapped on my head and on my hands. That bandage was soaked with a special oil so that oil prevent so the bandage doesn’t get stuck to my burning flesh and they gently will remove that bandage every day and cover me with the fresh new bandage. After having the same routine day after day, after two days I been told that a very special doctor will come to see me. The name of that doctor was Sir Archibald McIndoe. He was one of the biggest plastic surgeon doctor in the Royal Air Force Hospital, Queen Victoria in East Grinstead. He came that hospital to RAF hospital in Cosford and to see certain airmen from different accidents. When he came to see me he told me his name and he told me he would like to transfer me to his hospital in East Grinstead and ask me if I will be happy to go to that hospital. I turned to him and I said to him ‘doctor I leave all the decision to you because you know the best about my problem and what to do with me’. He was happy to hear that my great thanks to him that he wanted to take me to that special hospital in East Grinstead. The next day ambulance took me to that hospital. When I arrive in that hospital I’d been told there are so many boys from different accidents and different nationalities. There were English, Canadians, Polish and I think some French. I was so happy to be in such a friendly hospital. Queen Victoria Hospital it was one of the most famous hospital in the world for the badly burned, disfigured young airmen and the city, small town East Grinstead. It was our, the most lovely place maybe in England because those people understood and feel our disfigurement and they never stare at us in such bad disfigurement as we receive from different accidents. East Grinstead give us hope to continue, having such a big hospital with such advanced capability to improve our standard from the most horrible disfigurement what the fire could give to you. Must stop now. CB: Right. JB: How we play this, you know broken mentally now. You know what I mean? CB: Yeah, they knew how you felt. JB: Yes you see because you come to London people don’t, when they see you in certain still disfigurement they think, think probably you come from other planet or something. [laughs] CB: [laughs] Yes, yes. Can I just ask you one thing and that is what happened to the rest of the crew because there were five of you on the aircraft or six? JB: Yes. There were, I was one and the rest died. I was the only one that survived. Yes. CB: Yes. Right. So you were flying as the co-pilot? JB: Um. CB: You were flying as the co-pilot? JB: No. I rear gunner. CB: Oh, gunner? JB: I was the rear gunner. CB: Oh, right. JB: Yes, yes. CB: OK. JB: I did try to save my pilot because, but by the time I tried to reach the plane was in flaming. CB: Yes. JB: In bigger. So I covered my left side and tried with right hand so I burned my right side you see. Because you can see it you see you lost your visibility and the way to find the way you just had to with one hand. Even in your hand you was using feeling because hands was burnt. Fire you see. The biggest enemy what you could face. CB: Absolutely. Yeah. JB: Because I was — three times I see young boy drowning I say but you can fight drowning, but fire — CB: Fire you can’t. JB: It puts you out of completely, out of control you see. Fire the biggest enemy what you could face. CB: Dreadful. Yes. So how soon after take-off did the engine fail? JB: You see, what I want to, ‘cause I asked for break. CB: Yeah. JB: Then after spent six months in hospital. Hospital was getting so overloaded with new cases coming night after night and they were running short of beds, so what they used to do they sent you back to your stations for certain time. CB: Right. JB: And they patched me up. The beginning of my recovering and I’d been told what they cannot do another operation because I must have certain recovery time you see. CB: Right. JB: And they got in touch with my station but I would be discharged from hospital for short time and my station send me railway ticket from East Grinstead to Scotland, to Evanton near Inverness to gunnery school. And in that place there was, they give me instead of having a bit more recovery I had to continue flying with the new course, batch of gunners who come. Flying Boulton and Lysanders so the new gunners always be — I already was advanced as a gunner and give them instruction how they have to continue the more — the rest of their training. How to shoot the Lysander whose pulling behind him they sat and they firing from the Boulton twin engine plane with the [unclear] turret. Yes. To teach them how they have to see the distance. When the Lysander approaching them and they will be able to know the distance from what distance they can open fire, shooting to the Lysander sat which is dragging behind. And sometime it was very, very danger, you know, because the new gunners they had no hundred percent control of what they were doing. Sometimes they turn bit too much quickly and they shooting instead of sat and they shooting closer with the pilot you know flying Lysander. [laughs] So the pilot talk to me on the intercom ‘what’s happening? Can’t you see what’s happening?’ I said ‘yes skipper, I see what’s happening’. You know, I said, you know that’s not going to happen again. So I run to that gunner and I say he must move the turret gently not you see, but they kept not feeling it yet. So I continue that training for three months in Scotland. Evanton near Inverness. And after three months, after three months I went to my commanding officer and I said to him I said ‘Sir, I would like very much asking you for one favour. If you could give me permission to be sent to my squadron.’ And the commanding officer in the gunnery school asked me why I want to be transferred. I ask him after having three months responsible job what I was doing I found I just cannot continue, you know, to do that. He said ‘you will do that’ but he said I must wait another few days. I thank him. After, I think four days, I had my railway ticket with the rest of my documents, discharge from that station gunnery school to my squadron. When I arrive to my squadron, the next day I had to report to the commanding officer. My commanding officer ask me why I asked to be transferred to that station. I told him what I spent three months as instructor in that gunnery school and it was just too much to continue and he ask me what I want to do on my station. I turned to him and I said ‘Sir, what I want to do, I want to do same thing what I been taught told what to do. I been teach to fly and do my flying job.’ He said to me will I be, if I will be able to do that. I said to him I think if I did already three months as instructor in the gunnery school, I am sure I will be able to continue to do the rest of my job. He said alright but, but they still send me, he send me with two doctors for two hour flying and the doctors kept talking to me during those two hour flying, looking at my reaction and my, and my [pause] and my, how I feel if I’m not nervous or something or they could notice, not capable to continue to do my job as I ask my commanding officer that I wanted to fly again. After two days my commanding officer saw me and told me what the doctors give him result without no problem so I can continue to do my flying again. I restart doing my operational flying and at one time I receive letter from hospital and hospital ask me to go back for the continuation of the rest of my treatment recovery. I took the letter and gone to my commanding officer and show him the letter and commanding officer turn to me and said you should be very happy what the hospital want to continue to improve you, the rest of, give you treatment. He said you should be only too happy to that hospital and he said I must go. On the third night after departing from my station and departing from crews what I was flying with them. On the third night they went on the night mission and never return. So you know my history, twice luckily, you know had enough luck probably you know not to end up with the rest of my friends, you see. By the time they finish my, the rest of my treatment the war was over, but I still serve ,still serve three year longer, longer. You know, because I was young and they were discharging mostly older people. And in 1948 I had my discharge from Dunholme Lodge, the discharging station, Dunholme Lodge in Lincolnshire. Yes. And that’s when I started to go into the civil life. Then I got married to my wife. That’s why because I didn’t marry her during the war because I told her the war brings so many unexpected changes but when war ended we, we give each other promise so we get married. And we kept to our promise [pause] after living with my wife for fifty-two years [pause] I promise her what I will never leave her. So when I die I give her promise I will be buried with her together and that’s what I will give, going so you see I thought England is my country, my history here. They called me when it’s Remembrance Day [unclear] London Royal British Legion I felt if I go back to Argentine, I took my wife to Argentine I ask her if she like to see my family and we went by boat because during that time, after the war it was not such a long distance plane flying, so we went by boat. Three weeks going there and three weeks going back. But Argentine was changing after the war, different Government, different changes and I thought I was already more adjusted to life with my future wife in England. We returned and restarted our civil life and now I go to Poland for short holiday. I got some time to Argentine now, it’s easier to get there but I thought I came to England when time was difficult and we achieve our aim and this country had guts to stand up, you see and to [unclear] enough was enough without England the world would be different today. So that’s what I did for this country. There was nobody else could stood up. The English had guts to do it and the rest of people would join. CB: Um. JB: And without such a decision probably, you know, I don’t maybe for a thousand year the world would be different. CB: Um. JB: But you see the people, young generation don’t know what took [unclear] you see I saw in my squadron when sometime you come back and that table it was empty in the dining room and you thought sometimes think to yourself when my table will be empty. Because we could always eat together. We be like brothers if you know what I mean. And we — whatever happened after the war we made Europe different for so many years. CB: Um. JB: The people parted in different parts of the world now making destruction and so on but we show the world what Europe will change and I think this whatever we make changes we should be happy that so many people give their lives in the second war. But we must always remember that we don’t want to go back to the old days what Europe was, you see. CB: Um. JB: And we, we had our — the one thing after the war I was really heartbroken when Mr Churchill was not elected as our leader because I thought in the most difficult time when he took over, er, we should have given him that big recognition what he started in difficult time and achieve with the rest of the people in the world such a great victory and recognition and using the election, you see because I think that was the biggest mistake what we make after the war. Because with him I think we probably would be still much better off, you know what I mean, because that meant was seen all over the world you see. CB: Um. JB: But sometime politician do make mistakes too, you know what I mean. Men go, will fight and do his job and the politician make mistake too, you see. But that’s how things go, you see. To us and it will be continue. CB: Um. JB: And I mean I have sister in Argentine. She’s younger than me, a few years, and she said to me why don’t I go back and live with, with her and her children. I said no, I said I came during the war, I was a young man, I found my girlfriend here during the war and I said I would be feeling lost there, you see. Because I said, I in this country have some recognition you know. What I did, I mean if I would go to other country, even in Poland it wouldn’t be the same like here. CB: Um. JB: You see I belong to the Guinea Pig Club. Duke of Edinburgh [unclear]. He’s our president of our Guinea Pig Club, you see. He used to come sometime if he was not abroad to our dinner in East Grinstead. I had couple of times chance to talk with him, you see and that give you something what you, you used to have special days, Remembrance Days. Royal British Legion give me invitation to all the smaller things and you, you just feel you don’t want to lose that recognition, you know what I mean. CB: Um, JB: I will not receive that in another country. Yeah. And that myself what I as a young man came from the Atlantic all ready because I was feeling hurt what my people suffer of two unfriendly nation. Russia and Germany and I thought it was all wrong what we in Europe in those days for so long had so many times, you know, continuously such an unfriendly living. Yes. And now whatever look, year seventy over seventy years people travel you saw no fighting we give the rest of the world example what they should take same thing what we did. You know what I mean. CB: Um. JB: But we don’t know how long it going to last because you see because there new super power emerging with nasty ideas. Yes. And that’s why those [unclear] sooner or later will be happening all over the world. There’s nothing worse when dictator get power, you see, because they don’t listen to nobody. I mean those big dictators, you see when they done, have democratic system they take power into their hands and that’s what always was not much future during. Luckily we got rid of them [laughs] but some as soon you got rid of them then some new emerging [laughs] yeah. But, we took, when we took that big decision in 1939 and Mr Chamberlain used to, Neville Chamberlain used to go to Hitler and ask him what you, why you continuously want more, you already took so many. And he used to always promise the British Prime Minister there would be no war you know. But the rest of the world knew that the Germans was arming themselves and preparing themselves for the big expansion of their empire. You see that’s why [unclear] Germans because they wanted they could get pressurising Poland what Poland should give them [pause] chance to march, attack Russia because they knew that Russia was such a huge big country. And they knew it would be easy to, in those days, to overpower that part of the Eastern Europe. And Poland they wanted no German friendship nor Russian. They used to live between two very unfriendly neighbours you see. And that’s what happened, you see. And Hitler, you see, in the end took power into his own hand and he was gaining without fighting from beginning. Yes. And if in those days there would be no England there was no other country who would be stopping his expansion here because he already had everything going easy, easy. And even after when France collapse, look he was almost big military hardware which he recover from the French. I mean he used to make himself from strength to strength you know, without. He’d overpowered Czechoslovakia, took very big modern small industry, Skoda. Took the French, you see, military hardware and he was gaining from strength to strength he was building himself. It’s a good job there was one country still standing in the world. What they knew they cannot give in no more and they told, told on the last many meetings of Mr Chamberlain had what if, if he continue with Poland because Poland had treaty with England and France at that time. What the world will be unavoidable. But even so he took so many chances and he gained without problem and he thought it would continue but he made mistake you see. But the British decided they were going to stand up to it. Yes. But you think, you think there is the world that’s why in Europe now you see we, we should have much bigger recognition, you know what I mean in, in that. There’s twenty-seven countries, yes but we should be classified you know exactly as equally you know because there is difference between one country and another, you see. And the trouble was immigration was big problem for long time, you see, because now they well staffed to notice that what you know we must do something and cooperate not listening just to one country, you see, because it is a world problem you see and, but Europe didn’t listen much you see and that’s probably what ever happening changes or we don’t know how it’s going to end, you know what I mean. CB: Um. JB: But it was problem because they used to come to [unclear] and not the one country was selected the most of them wanted us England, you know what I mean, because it was the most place where they could get the easier living and you see Europe then should talk it out more into consideration what they should cooperate together. I mean the Syrian problem started, Europe start to wake up you know and notice the big problem to the rest of the world but there is not only secondary there is African problem yes coming. And Europe must work together to stop that because one country cannot do it. Now, now after all these years [unclear] tried to clean it you know what I mean. For how many years and it was spreading because during that time lots of people were making money out of it you know. Everybody had fingers in it, you know what I mean. CB: Um. Um. JB: You see the French were very, I would say, to, to have less responsibility because they, they had their country and they should probably knew what lots of people who come from different parts through their land come to the English Channel and heading, you know to England. CB: Um. JB: And for so long it was continue you see, but the, like, you see, in the many, many different ways I think the France took big res — less responsibility they, they start to feel under own problem you see and that’s what happening but probably that should been stopped long time ago, years. But politicians have time to make mistakes you see. And that’s we probably don’t know how going to end you see. CB: Let’s just stop there for a mo. Now you mention that you had a girlfriend in the war called Evelyn. JB: Yes, yes. CB: And where did you meet her? JB: Yes. CB: And what was she doing? JB: I, I met her during the war one day at the Hammersmith [unclear] at a dance [laughs] yes. Yes. CB: So how did that come about? JB: Er, well you see Hammersmith was very popular part of London where was lots of during the war activities and there was very famous for dancing you know [unclear] dance and I met my wife but she, she was, er, coming from the Derbyshire, Matlock in Derbyshire. Yes. And my wife during that time was working in cafe royal syndicate. Yes. And I ask her why she’s not going back to Derbyshire and she told me because she come from big farm in Derbyshire but her father send her to London to finish her economy programme. When she receive her degree in the economy she decided that she find better reward living and working in London. And she decided to stay in London and when I met her during my first meeting I ask her why London is her select place. She told me because working on the big farm was very responsible and heavy daily responsible life but she was always happy to tell me what the Derbyshire will always be her, the most lovely part of the country. But one time I ask her why and she told me if I ever heard the name Rolls, Rolls Royce I say yes that’s one of the famous place where they produce the biggest engine for the planes she told me because the most famous people live in Derbyshire and I always will remember her sorts of proud to come from that part of the world. She was very understanding person and I promise with her what when war ended and we survive during the war, if she decide to marry me I will give her promise I will do that. War ended and we kept to our promise. And I will remember what we kept that till the very end. She was very good wife and my memory will be continuous of my happiness what I spent with her for so many years after the war. Yes. CB: When did she die? JB: Um. CB: When did she die? JB: Oh, eight years ago. CB: Right. JB: I bury her in Gunnersbury cemetery. CB: Oh Gunnersbury. Right. Right. JB: Yes. Yes. CB: And it’s big enough for both of you? JB: Yes. CB: Let’s have a break there for a moment. JB: Yes. But we knew the second war was brewing, from, you know, year two year we knew. CB: Right. JB: And the, the one thing, you see, what I remember it was what certain dictators were feeling what they could make such a, a big, er, names for themselves, you see, and I think what the Europe at that time was thinking after the first war that they had enough seen suffering that the peace will continue but at that time certain dictators emerge into the big popularity and that’s why Europe became such an unfriendly part of the world. Yes. And that’s what happened. It started from small conflict, it went to the bigger one. And I ask, I took small part in that conflict. I think what we, at that time, played very important part and commitment that we took to not to keep continue making same mistakes in Europe again. CB: Um. JB: And I hope the young generation should remember the history what we went through and should not forget that the history should not be repeating itself again. CB: Um. JB: We, they have a, have a responsibility for such a big commitments what was started on, we gain our aim in the end and I’m so happy what Europe now is. Whatever is prosperous part of the world. CB: Um. JB: Yes. CB: What was it that prompted your father to leave in nineteen — what was it that prompted your father to leave in nineteen forty, thirty-four why did he go to Argentina? JB: Oh yes. Because you see Europe was my country, living was hard after the first war and my father look like millions of other European nations, were looking for better prospect in different parts of the world. South America it was huge big empty new land. Lots of people were hoping that they make easier life there. CB: Um. JB: You see. He went there, bought lots of land cheaply, because land was cheap there you see. But it’s no good having lots of land if you have no strength to give — aid you. CB: Um. JB: To cultivate that is huge responsibility and I, I had feeling what my country was suffering when war started and I, my only happiness was to have opportunity during that time to come to England. CB: No. JB: And to fight together with British so my people not again go under for many years of occupation of the very unfriendly neighbours like Russia and Germany. And that’s as I mention in the past what England for many nation give that courage and strength what we together. CB: Um. JB: Join in and with such a difficult uncertain future but in the end the things start to show us what we gain our victory in the end. CB: Um. JB: And I feel what we must remember the history and the history must never repeat mistakes in the past. Yes. CB: You’ve also got the British Legion VE70 badge. JB: Oh yes, I — CB: So that’s because you were remembering the end of the war. JB: Yes, yes and I have one unforgotten association here. CB: Yes. JB: You know, Buckingham Palace. This one. CB: That one. Yes. JB: You see, yes, that’s once, once in lifetime they probably when they think you did something you know so they ask you, Christmas little party you see in the news Buckingham news party. CB: Um. Yes. JB: Yes. So you see that’s why for Buckingham Association. CB: And what is your tie? JB: Um. CB: What’s the tie that you have got on? JB: Tie. Lancaster, yeah that’s my — you see, that’s [unclear] [laughs] CB: [laughs] Right just going to stop for a mo. JB: But you see afterwards when I did in my squadron after hospital. CB: Yes JB: After gunnery school. CB: Yes. JB: I used to do spare. CB: Yeah. JB: Because you see in the squadron on Lancaster is three gunners CB: Yes. JB: Rear gunner, middle gunner and front gunner and sometime crew, one, one person will have [unclear] operation or something so in the squadron is always spares. CB: Yes. JB: Crew. CB: Yeah. JB: Person who finish [unclear] and he doesn’t want to be posted somewhere else. CB: Right, JB: And he will have a holiday after you do thirty-three trips. CB: Yes. JB: Because when you do thirty-three trips you don’t need to fly no more. CB: Right. Right. JB: But you just get into it you don’t want to be somewhere, sent somewhere you want to stay in your squadron. CB: Can I go back to the crash? JB: Yes. CB: So you were the only survivor, you were really badly injured obviously with fire. JB: Yeah. CB: But how did you feel emotionally about the fact that you were the only survivor? JB: Oh, well you see that’s sometime now. When we have Battle of Britain Remembrance and you go behind our war memorial and you see all the names written and sometime you think to yourself what I probably, probably would be better if I will be dead with them then if you know what I mean. CB: Um. JB: Because you see — CB: The sense of loss? JB: Yes, because that was the friendship you see. We share sometime when we had to empty cigarettes packet and you came back from the operation and you notice cigarette were on very short, er, ration in those days, so you take, share with them you see. It was friendship, terrific friendship you see during the war. CB: Um. JB: I mean such a friendship will be in your heart for long time you see and if you’re gone with your friend in pub you didn’t wait if he probably was running short of cash or something not to share with him you know your money because us people were living together and facing the responsibility together. They were almost prepared to give life, one for another, you know what I mean. CB: Um. Indeed. JB: You see, today is difficult for people to understand such a friendship. CB: Sure, because the crew was the family. JB: Yeah it was family, it was family. CB: Now the crash was in a Wellington but this is three — then you go to 300 Squadron and that converts to Lancasters? JB: Yes, yeah. We passed our conversion on Halifax’s in Brighton and from Halifax’s into the Lancasters. Yes. CB: Oh Right. So you went to the Halifax, from the Halifax through the Lancaster conversion school? JB: Yes the Lancaster that was seven crews you see. CB: Yes. JB: Yes but before you go on a Lancaster the Halifax’s, that’s a four engine bomber. So from Wellington you go on Halifax and from Halifax’s into the Lancaster. Yes. CB: Yes. Yes. So they, when you returned to East Grinstead, you were on Halifax’s? JB: No from gunnery school. CB: Yes. JB: From gunnery school, my squadron then was sending from Wellingtons into the Lancaster. CB: Right. JB: And at Faldingworth Station, was built by Wimpy. It was first new built aerodrome that was 1900 Squadron moving in you see near Market Rasen. Yes. CB: So you then, having converted onto Lancasters. JB: Yeah. CB: You then went on ops from there. How many ops did you do on the Lancasters themselves? JB: Eighteen. CB: Eighteen? JB: Yeah. CB: OK. And then you were called to East Grinstead? JB: To East Grinstead, yes. CB: How did you feel when you heard about the loss of the whole crew in the Lancaster? JB: Oh, it was really I think the same probably as I would lost my father or mother or brother you know. That was the same because you see we during our flyings we were such a close together, you know what I mean. CB: Um. JB: When we went for holiday we share our money if we had money when we had no more money we return back to the station. You know what I mean. We shared together and we had one pay master. We give him our money. He used to pay our lodging. When we had holiday we usually gone together, you know what I mean. CB: Right. We’re stopping there. Thank you. JB: Yeah. CB: When you left the RAF — JB: When I left the RAF yes. CB: What did you do? JB: When I left the RAF, yes, I got job in the rubber factory in Southall. The name of that factory was [pause] Woolf, Woolf Rubber Factory Company, Southall, Hayes Bridge. Hayes Bridge that’s the name of that district, Southall. CB: What did you do there? JB: I, I was young and they give me opportunity to train me as a machine forcer setter [pause] I start in that factory to do night work. Twelve hours at, twelve hours night, twelve hours shift. I worked there twelve years [long pause] having one Sunday off. After twelve years [pause] I left and work for, as a rep, for the electrical company. With the electrical company, Clark Electrical in Willesden. I worked twenty-two years knowing all the cities in England I travelled as a rep and my big boss in that electrical company, the name Mr Jack Clark, died and the company, company was sold. CB: Oh. JB: And I reached my retirement age you see and that was the end of my civil life. So I had two jobs, one in twelve years and one twenty-two years. CB: Brilliant. JB: Yes. CB: What did your wife do in that time? JB: Oh yes. My wife in the end work in Carlton Tower Hotel, Sloane Street, Knightsbridge. CB: what did she do there? JB: That was the first American hotel built in London. CB: Oh was it. JB: The Carlton Tower. CB: Yes I remember it. Yes. [long pause] So she stayed there all the time? JB: Yes. CB: Good. And how many children did you have? JB: My wife had caesarean operation could not have no children. CB: So that saved you quite a lot of money? JB: Um. CB: That saved you a lot of money? JB: Yeah, yeah. I bought little old house in, in Holland Park, that’s when I made my money in the rubber factory you see. CB: Yes. JB: Yes. It was dilapidated house because during the war nobody could get no paint, no — you know because — and the roof was leaking but I liked the place Holland Park, you know. And as you know property start going sky — CB: Sky high yes. JB: And the things start to improve but the work was after the war, there was no, any, I would say, support like now people get. CB: No. JB: You had to get up early in the money whilst there was some job going because after the war in England was very difficult, very difficult. Every food was on ration you see. You went to the butchers shop you could get six rasher of bacon or half butter cut, you know, on how you say one pack of butter that was cut in half you see because on coupons. CB: Yes JB: Everything was on ration. Shoes on the ration. But afterwards slowly year by year when factories start turning into the commercial things start to improve. CB: Yes. JB: Lots of big emigration people used to go to different parts of the world from to America, Canada, Australia. Because during the war the most factory were producing for the war. CB: Of course. JB: Essentially you see. CB: Yes. Yes. JB: And it took them time to restart afterwards. CB: Um. JB: But when they started and you had strength to do it there was lots of money could be made, you know what I mean. CB: Yes. JB: It was hard, hard. CB: Hard work. JB: Hard working but there was overtime, there was factory was working you know all year round without stopping because my rubber factory I could set forcer machine on any production today. CB: Right. JB: Like Firestone, Goodyear, Dunlop because most of the rubber factories they have same machine forcers you see. And I was young and I was supervisor. CB: Right. JB: Yes. But you have to in those days there was no strikes, you know, because was union after was started, you know, emerging and there change came and was perhaps getting lots of new rules and so on. But when the factory started after the war they kept going for many, many years because there was such a shortage of domestic products. Our, the biggest customer was Ford and Dagenham. We used to produce to Ford and Dagenham all our rubber installation into the cars because before in the car all the rubber installation in window doors was all rubber. Now it’s plastic CB: Yes. JB: It’s different. And the Ford lorries used to wait outside our factory day and night. Soon as you cure our products they were — CB: Right. Taken there. JB: Rushing to Dagenham. CB: Right. JB: Because Ford had such a big orders for so many cars they could not change it they used to wait outside our factor, lorries, drivers soon as we produce and cure they were quickly because it was so —the rest of the world was such a shortage of cars. CB: Yes. A couple of final questions. What was your wives maiden name? JB: Evelyn Black. CB: And we call you Jan Black. JB: Yes. CB: What is your actual surname? JB: Jan Black. CB: Yeah in Polish. What’s your Polish name? JB: Oh. Jan Stangryciuk. Very difficult. CB: So when did you change your name to Jan Black? JB: Yes. I’m glad you, you see— I tell you something. When I, when I was with my de-mob money you see, eight years I thought I take my wife on holiday to Argentine you see and I probably thought I settle in Argentine. So my doctor said, Archibald McIndoe, that big plastic surgeon in hospital because he was not our, he was our friend, our advisor, you see that doctor to us he give us almost new courage to continue our recovery because we were partly broken. CB: Yes. Yeah. JB: You know what I mean, destroyed, we were ashamed to go between people, yes. He said to me, he said what documents you have. I said Sir Archie, I said I have no any documents. He said you should have British passport. I said to him I don’t know how to, how to make British passport. Don’t you worry for you will arrange for you. Because he said because if you go to visit to Argentine now you must have some documents but when I came here they didn’t want any documents [laughs] I probably have from school some certificate, you know what I mean. So you see, and of course because my wife was the name of Evelyn Black so they said to me we’re not going to give you different name you have same name like your wife, you know what I mean [laughs] but I tell you why. When I applied to the Argentinean Embassy for visa, because in those days you needed visa to go to, they were so interested about my past in England in eight years in the Air Force and so on. And they ask me if I agree so they put in local paper in BA my arrival that I serve in England in the Air Force eight years, I had my accident and so now I am returning to visit my family I said that’s OK but when they called me when my visa ready I went to collect my visa they said to me Mr Black but we have little more problem to ask you. As you know there is so many German different type of men who are now in South America we’ve been advised if you will agree of putting in local paper some of your visit to your family after eight years in England. I said but why is that the problem, they said because some of those men probably could be very unfriendly towards you because there’s so many men with those names unfriendly lots of, now circling in South American countries. So when I came to my wife and I said to her she said you don’t want know your name of your visit what you did in England and she said you had enough during the war, different you know, er, incidents, accidents and you don’t want to go now, you know putting in the paper your arrival and she wouldn’t have it. So I went back you see to the Argentinean Consulate and I said you know I’m afraid I want not to mention of my visit because so many Germans with big money, with submarines got — even the people there in Argentine up to now believe that Hitler was hidden himself in Argentine. What that’s what they said what they did — they got his you know body, his body in Russia somewhere. In Argentine there is still, in Patagonia, that’s a part of Argentine. CB: In the South. Yes. JB: Where lots of German community live. Eichmann after so many years you know they, they caught him up. CB: Yes. Yes. They’re Nazi’s. JB: Eichmann near my sister in Argentine. I have house, photo from his house. He bought that house near little airport. In BA, Buenos Aires, because Buenos Aires is a huge territory you know, you know London is big but Buenos Aires is also huge size you know what I mean. CB: Yes I know. Physical size. JB: So he bought that house, huge house near the airport. He already bought that with that big amount of money and he was living near that airport and had the plane in case of any problem he could easy get away because he had plane near Buenos Aires, small plane you know. CB: Yeah, yeah. This is Eichmann. JB: And that house so he easy could escape you know what I mean. CB: Um. JB: But the Israelis Secret Service you see there. CB: Yeah, they got there JB: And I have photos. You, I mean, I took when I went there to my sister holiday to Argentine with my wife. And that house is still standing as a museum. CB: Oh is it? JB: Yeah. A huge house. He was there and he had girlfriend and he promised her to marry. She was Argentinean and in the end because he told her he was single man, he was so and so but that girlfriend start to notice he was trying to betray her you know what I mean. CB: Oh right. JB: And staying there and, you see, somehow got in touch with the — CB: The Israelis? JB: Israelis Secret Service and that’s how they got him you see after so many years. CB: Oh I see. JB: But there’s still — what Hitler was not us, it was in the Europe where the Russian got his body or something but he was in, in Patagonia with stronger German [unclear] two in Argentine places, Patagonia one territory with lots of German emigration and another one what is in one of those parts you see. CB: Right. JB: Where you know he spent the rest of his life CB: Yeah. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jan Black. Two Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-14 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AStangryciukBlackJ170314 PStangryciukBlackJ1701 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Description An account of the resource Jan Black Stangryciuk was born in Poland although his family emigrated to Argentina in 1934. He volunteered to join the Royal Air Force in 1939. He recalls his journey to England and explains reasons for his decision. He describes, in detail, a crash landing during training in a Wellington, in which he sustained serious burn injuries and tells of his subsequent hospital stays and treatment. After recovery he spent time as an instructor at the Air Gunnery School at RAF Evanton before re-joining his squadron. He undertook a total of 18 operations with 300 Squadron in Lancasters. He left the RAF in 1948 and married his wife, Evelyn, and he explains why he took on her surname. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tracy Johnson Maureen Clarke Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Argentina Poland Great Britain England--Shropshire England--Warwickshire Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1939-09 1948 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 02:08:10 audio recording 18 OTU 300 Squadron air gunner Air Gunnery School aircrew bombing crash Defiant Guinea Pig Club Halifax Lancaster love and romance Lysander McIndoe, Archibald (1900-1960) military ethos Operational Training Unit Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (1921-2021) RAF Bramcote RAF Cosford RAF Evanton take-off crash training Wellington