2 25 157 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/665/10069/AAdamsCB170802.mp3 70f515073c186da3731f0b76d4da4eef Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Adams, Cyril Bristow Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Cyril Bristow Adams (1921 - 2017, 1429890 Royal air Force). He served as an engine fitter with 49 and 83 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Adams, CB Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Cyril Adams today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We are at Mr Adam’s home and it is the 2nd of August 2017. Thank you, Cyril for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is Sue Ford, his daughter. So, Cyril can you tell me your date of birth, where you were born and something of your early years with your family? CA: Well, I was born 9th of December [pause] which — 1921. I lived with my father and mother and sister and grandma in a house in Battersea, London. Unfortunately, it was bombed and they were killed. I was in the Air Force at the time so probably I was lucky. JH: And what were you actually doing though in the years before the war as a young boy? CA: Well, I was apprenticed. Well, after school I was apprenticed to an engineering firm until I joined up in 1941. JH: And where was that? CA: We went to where the airships — JH: Cardington. Cardington. CA: Cardington. That’s where it started. And [pause] well from there you go to — you were introduced to the ways and wherefores of the Air Force and they send you away to do some training in, and square bashing and all that sort of business. Then I went to [pause] a place called — oh what’s it called? Where they do — I was on a fitter 2 course. Where I became a fitter 2E. AC2. JH: And was the training in various places? I mean, did you move around? CA: I moved around. I went to [pause] Scampton with 83 Squadron as a fitter 2. 49 Squadron. That was at Scampton too. And then I went to a Heavy Conversion Unit. 1661. Which was at [pause] where we played bridge. What was that called? SF: Swinderby, was it? CA: Swinderby. Yeah. And when I was at Swinderby I got, I went overseas to — I left Bomber Command. I went overseas to Transport Command at Lydda in Palestine. And I was there for — to the end of the war. JH: So, what year was that then? Do you remember? CA: Well, it was 1944 to ’46. And then we came home on what they called the Medlock Route which was, we came by lorry across the Sinai Desert into Egypt by the Bitter Lakes. And from there we went by boat to Toulon. And then by train across France to Calais and then Dover and then up to where we got demobbed. That’s roughly what happened. JH: And what aeroplanes did you actually fly in throughout the war? What? Were they all the same? CA: Hampdens. JH: Right. CA: That was the first lot. And then we had Manchester which was the forerunner for the Lancaster. And then we had Lancasters with 83 and 49 Squadron. I left there. They became a unit and I went to 1661 Conversion Unit where we built up engines from, for the Lancaster and Stirlings. When I was abroad I worked — it was like, Lydda was a Transport Command aerodrome and we serviced aeroplanes that were going out to the Far East. And it was quite pleasant in Palestine. We had the trouble with the Arabs and Jews but, well it’s, it’s history isn’t it? JH: And what was your actual job, if you like? When you were — CA: I was a fitter 2. JH: Yeah. All the time. All the way through. CA: On the engines. Yeah. I became a corporal, acting sergeant. Which I fulfilled the job of looking after all and the daily running of the maintenance on the planes that came through. Or planes that — I was on a squadron as well. JH: Do you remember any particular operations that you did throughout the war with — you know? CA: Well, I can remember the German Navy going up the English Channel. That’s the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst. Planes I was on, they went in to bomb it and they were damaged. I can remember the Peenemunde raid which was in Poland which where they were trying out all the V-1s and V-2s. And I can remember the first thousand bomber raid which took place while I was at Scampton. JH: Did you have many crews? Did you change crews very often? CA: Well [pause] we had like a engine fitter, aircraft [pause] like an aeroplane fitter and they were on probably two planes. They used to do the maintenance and then that was while I was on a squadron. [pause] JH: Were you anywhere where you had any near misses through your, you know, flights or — CA: Misses? JH: Any? CA: Well, we, when you did a, any work on the aircraft they went up on what they used to call a night flying test and you had to go with them. Just as a, it was posted, issued out with parachutes and you went up with the plane and checked everything was alright with what you’d done. While it was flying. These amounted to, well they varied from half hour if it was quick job or if they went a bit further could be an hour. So, I could see the idea that if your work wasn’t up to scratch you’re a — you reaped the benefit [laughs] [pause] CA: It, it was a, well we wouldn’t say it was a really hard life. But you were out in the elements all the time and most of the work was done out on the dispersals. But some of the work was done in a hangar. Engine changes and things like that, as and when they came up. JH: How many of you would be working on — CA: Pardon? JH: How many of you worked together? You know on a, on a job sort of thing. How many of you? CA: Oh, the ground crew I should think was about fifty for a squadron. And we used to march from the hangars out to dispersals. Used, used to have a transport listing circulate the aerodrome and they used to get lifts out to where ever you were wanted to work. JH: Did you actually have much leave? You know, were you ⸻ CA: Well, leave. We got — JH: What did you do? CA: A week. A weeks’ leave every three months. And seven days. And then you’d, if you were lucky you could get a forty eight hour pass. But as most of that was taken up in travelling it didn’t seem much point really because most of it was done with hitchhiking you know. The forces seem to be well catered for on the lifts they got. There weren’t many cars on the road because of the petrol shortage. But there was always lorries that you got a lift in. JH: And where did you go when you were on leave anyway? CA: Well, went in to London. The family were there until they were killed and then after that we — I got the wife accommodation in a nearby town and I used to go there you know. Whenever I got a pass. JH: When did you get married then? CA: 1942. JH: How did you meet? CA: Well, before I joined up. About 1940. We met at — we both worked at Harrods. I was in the, on the, in the engine room because they generated all the power for the shop from the engine room. Diesel generators and steam boilers. And they had a hundred and forty lifts which were maintained. A lot of them were goods lifts as opposed to what the customers used. And while I was there they fitted in an escalator. And when the, when there was an air raid the girls that did the — on the switchboard went down to the shelters and the lads who worked on the engineering side used to go up to the exchange and work the switchboards up there ‘til the air raid was finished and we swapped back again. JH: And what did your wife do there then if she was working there? CA: She was working there for a time and then in haberdashery. And then she went and worked for Selfridges after that until our first child was born. And that’s my, that’s Susan’s brother and he was born in ’44. It was very, it was a very fortunate birth because she was in St Thomas’ at the time that the V, V-1s destroyed our house. So [pause] and that was that. JH: And then what? You finished in ’46 was it? CA: Yeah. Finished in ’46. In November. JH: Were you in touch with any of your old mates? Crew mates, you know. Or squadron mates. CA: Not since. No. JH: No. CA: I haven’t been in touch. JH: No. CA: Well, the chaps I used to work with on the squadron some of them came to my wedding but after that everybody split up and went, you know different places. JH: And after that? You know, when you’d left your squadrons and what did you do sort of then in later years then? CA: What? JH: Work and — CA: When I came back into England I went to get my old job back but the, the recompense wasn’t very good. So, I got a job with [pause] with the Vestey organisation. And I became eventually their chief engineer. I had to study at night school to to get where I wanted to go but eventually got there. JH: Where you based then? Where was this? CA: This was — I lived in Battersea. Then we had what they used to call [pause] accommodation that was bought by the government and then you were able to live as, as a family in the house that the government had bought. And then I got a — after about two years, that’s when Susan came along. We went to live in Shaftsbury Park Estate which was an estate mostly of terraced houses. And then we moved out of London where we bought property in [pause] in Hertfordshire. JH: So, did you still work at the same place or was this after all this? CA: Oh, I worked all over the place. JH: Oh. Right. CA: I worked in Northern Ireland. A place called Carrickfergus. And then I went to work in Nigeria for the same firm doing much the same job. JH: What — did your family go with you or — CA: On one occasion they did. But not the children. It was just the wife because they were growing up and they were at the teacher’s training college weren’t you? And my son John was — he joined the Stock Exchange. And I didn’t really benefit from that [laughs] Unfortunately, he’s died since but [pause] we had our moments. And that — I was working in Peterborough when I was made redundant in ’81. And we lived in a place called Deeping St James which was just on the corner of Lincoln and Peterborough. Lincolnshire. Not Lincoln. And then after that I — my daughter, who lived in St Neots, near St Neots she thought when my wife died in ’98 [pause] she thought it would be better if I came down nearer to where she lived. And I’ve had this flat and I’ve been here, well eighteen years now. So, that’s, that’s me. JH: Did you ever fly after the war? You know, have you gone into aeroplanes on holidays. CA: No. I didn’t. No. I didn’t do any. Only as passenger. That’s all. [pause] JH: There aren’t any particular exploits that you remember? That — CA: Pardon? JH: Can you remember any particular exploits that happened? Any of your, you know, through your war years. Do you remember? CA: Well, I did mention some of the bombing raids that I was servicing the aeroplanes that took part in it previously. No. I don’t think there was anything outstanding really. JH: You didn’t feel in danger particularly. You know, from — CA: Oh, we came under fire several times when I was in Palestine. The, the Irgun Zvai Leumi. That’s a terrorist group. A Jewish terrorist group. And, and I was taken prisoner by the 6th Airborne Division and kept in a compound overnight until the adjutant vouched for me that I worked for him. So, that was — well it was — JH: Quite scary. CA: Part of the job that. What I was used to. SF: You formed a cycling club, didn’t you? Out there. CA: Pardon? SF: You formed a cycling club out there. CA: Oh yeah. We had cycling. I was always a cyclist. And we [pause] the place I was at at Lydda we formed a cycling club and we used to tear around the roads doing time trials in Palestine with the — and the Arabs knew what we were doing. They used to throw stones at us knowing we wouldn’t stop. So, we got the help of the Palestine police. They marshalled the route that we were on so that put a stop to that. These were bikes that we bought in Italy and sent out because being in Transport Command you could utilise the aircraft for, for well for your own purposes sometimes. The, and we were able to buy fruit and stuff that the civilians in England hadn’t seen for all, all the war. And we got that sent back by bomber — well, they weren’t Bomber Command. They were Transport Command. They used to run a service and all the prisoners of war that were out in Far East came through our aerodrome in transit to — they were flown home. It took us three months to get home but they had bigger. They had the opportunity of flying so they took it I think. And they weren’t in very good condition either some of the poor devils. Mostly from the Far East. Japanese prisoners of war. So that’s, that’s my story. CA: Okay. Is there anything else that you can think of that he might mean to add or — SF: I can remember him telling me what it was like to come home on the train. How uncomfortable it was going through France. CA: Oh yeah. We used to travel by train. They used to be old German carriages, and with wooden seats. And they used to stop in a siding for hours and hours while the rest of the railway went rumbling by. And also they had places where you could use washing facilities. Not showers but washing facilities and food. It was all arranged on this Medlock Route across France. When we got to Paris the, all the bridges were down [pause] and we, they were all temporary bridges that were built for trains to go across. And they weren’t very stable. I can remember that. JH: Why was this called the Medlock Route? What, what —? CA: Well, it was [pause] we got a boat across the Mediterranean from Port Tewfik. Up the Canal and in we went. The boat we were on broke down and they towed us in to Malta. And we transferred on to another boat but we weren’t allowed to go ashore so we didn’t see much of Malta. And we went off between Sicily and Italy. Saw Mount Etna and other volcano islands. And eventually we got to the South of France and we went into transit camp there until we got a train. Took three months to get home. JH: I can imagine. SF: I also remember dad telling me about when he went up to Cardington when he was a young lad or man. And he had, they took you to big hangars there didn’t they. CA: Yeah. We slept in one of the airship hangars. SF: Slept on the floor. CA: Really draughty old places they were. But that was where they gave you brown paper and string to wrap all your civilian clothes up and sent them home and issued you with a uniform. When we got back they issued with civilian clothes. The other way around when we got to the demob centre which was near Birmingham. SF: And mum went up to live there for a while, I think. CA: Yes. She did. SF: Because she had been bombed in London and you had a room somewhere. Was it Grantham? I can’t remember now. CA: We had a room there. Yeah. We had to move the bed to open the door. Still it was a place to live. That’s in a place called Newark, Notts. And I used to cycle into, to Swinderby from Newark. It was only about ten miles and used to, sometimes used to get passes for weekends and things like that. While I was there at Swinderby I was in a Nissen hut complex on the side of a river. And there was no [pause] facilities for washing or anything like that. So we used to wear Wellington boots and go down and shave in the river and wash. And it was all good fun that was. Right. JH: Okay. We’ll just, just pause for a moment then. [recording paused] JH: I’d like to thank you, Cyril today for allowing me to record this interview. Thank you very much. CA: Right. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Cyril Bristow Adams Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Judy Hodgson Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-08-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AAdamsCB170802 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:41:36 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Royal Air Force. Transport Command Civilian Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Northern Ireland England--Bedfordshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Peterborough England--London Middle East--Palestine England--Huntingdonshire Description An account of the resource Cyril was born in London in 1921, lived in Battersea with his relatives and met his wife in 1940 while working at Harrods. His family were killed by a bomb after he joined up. Cyril enlisted at RAF Cardington in 1941 and trained to be a fitter, then joined Bomber Command at RAF Scampton working on Hampdens, Manchesters and Lancasters for 83 and 49 Squadrons. He got married in 1942 and lost his house to a V1, while his wife was in St. Thomas’s hospital having their first child. Cyril was transferred to RAF Swinderby to 1661 Heavy Conversion Unit working on Lancasters and Stirlings before being posted to Transport Command serving in Palestine from 1944 to 1945. After demobilisation he worked in Northern Ireland, Nigeria and Peterborough. After being made redundant and losing his wife in 1998, he moved to St. Neots to be closer to his daughter. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Steve Baldwin Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Carolyn Emery Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1998 1661 HCU 49 Squadron 83 Squadron bombing fitter engine ground crew ground personnel Hampden Heavy Conversion Unit Lancaster Manchester RAF Cardington RAF Scampton RAF Swinderby Stirling training V-1 V-weapon https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/703/10103/ABeechingJB180118.2.mp3 47d4231ede11edc693eeebb6482fe40a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Beeching, John Benjamin J B Beeching Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with John Beeching (b. 1923, 1339821 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 169 and 627 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Beeching, JB Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document GT: This is Thursday, 18th January 2018 and I am with Mr John Benjamin Beeching at his place of work, The Cawthron Institute, in Nelson, New Zealand. John was born 19 October 1923 in London, England and joined the RAF in August 1941, his service number 1339821, and as an aircrew pilot to be gained the nickname Curly. John’s flying career was from 1942 to 1946 and he flew more than twelve different aircraft types. John, thank you for inviting me to have a talk about your career today. JB: I have to say [Indecipherable.] GT: Great John. So how about you give me a bit of your history about a - where did you grow up and then why did you join the RAF and how, and so on, please. JB: Well, needless to say I grew up in that time when, at the age of fifteen, sixteen, I was in the Blitz so I received bombing from both ends, [chuckle] not only receiving them but also delivered them! This was in 1939, when the war broke out, and at that stage I was working in an engineering workshop which axiomatically of course went from making arms and we were making bullet dies and things like that. After a year that got pretty boring and a good friend of mine, Billy Campbell said we’ve had enough of this, let’s go and join the Army and do some real war work. So we went to the Recruiting Office in Romford, which is also in Essex, and we had a very brief and cursory medical examination and a very dapper little sergeant said okay son, he said to Bill, we’ll tell you when we need you, and he said to me I’m sorry lad, your feet are flat for the Army, we can’t take you so go back to your engineering job, I’m sure you’ll be doing some useful war work. So, I thought no, rats to this and right across the alleyway there was the, you okay there? So I walked across this alleyway where the Air Force recruiting place was, and I said I’d like to join the RAF, and they said oh yes, what do you do son? I said well at the moment I’m an engineer, he said ah, that’s very good, we need engineers in the Air Force. He says don’t want to fly do you, with a very crafty look on his face. Now don’t forget this was 1941 when aircrew at a premium and we were losing lots, so I said yes I can, I’d love to do that, so he gave us another quick medical, he didn’t look at my feet in this particular case and he said we’ll let you know when we need you. So I think it was about a month later and I was sent to Weston Super Mare where we had a two day medical, a very, very strict medical and I was given my number, 1339821, and they said you are now in the Volunteer Reserve and will be called up in due course, which we were in actual fact, on April the 20th April 1942, which by a great coincidence, happened to be Hitler’s birthday. I was recruited at St Johns Wood where all aircrew were, Aircrew Receiving Centre, otherwise known as ACRC, and billeted in a very palatial hotel which was no longer palatial after we’d been in touch with it and we were there oh, a couple of weeks I suppose, and then sent off to a holding unit at Ludlow in Shropshire under canvas, which was a holiday, because they didn’t know what to do with us so we were building roads which went nowhere and all sorts of stuff. Anyway I think it was, must have been the spring of 1942, late spring, maybe June, I went to my Initial Training Wing at Stratford upon Avon, lovely place, where we did our square bashing at the front of the new Shakespeare Theatre there, which is a lovely place. We used to go punting on the Avon in the evening, it was really nice. And at the end of our ITW we did a ten hour grading course on Tiger Moths and I didn’t know how I’d come out of that one because I didn’t think I’d do too well, but apparently they must have thought it was sufficient to carry me on to, carry on training as a pilot. And from there we were given a couple of weeks’ leave and then from our leave we went to the massive [emphasis] holding camp at Heaton Park in Manchester, where all crew went, I think there were about thirty odd thousand went there, and some went to Southern Rhodesia to train as pilots and navigators and the rest of us went to Canada. And we went to Canada in December 1942, which was a bad year for u-boats, we were in a large liner called the Andes, which has been here to New Zealand a couple of times during the war, and we were way up among the icebergs we went, [swishing sound effect] due north for a couple of days I think, away from submarines or whatever, [cough] and we landed at Halifax, Nova Scotia on Christmas Day 1942. On the way to Monckton in this massive train, in the snow, we hit a car on the level crossing with seven Mounties in it and killed the lot. They was splattered all over, the blood, it was blood and guts all over the place: it was a lovely introduction to Canada. Anyway we went to Monckton, we weren’t there very long and then we were sent to the Prairies. I went to a place called Virden, Manitoba, Number 19 EFTS, and where we did our training on winter-clad Tiger Moths. In other words they were fitted with skis and a canopy and a very rudimentary heater which didn’t work very well, and did sixty hours on those although that was interrupted in my case because I had a punctured ear drum flying with a cold, and spent the whole month in hospital. [Cough] And at the end of that, that would be the spring of 1943 I suppose, I went to my Service Flying Training School at Brandon, Manitoba, which was east of Virden, about eighty miles down the road I suppose, and continued my training on Cessna Bobcats, which the Canadians called Cranes, well they were otherwise AT12a’s and finally wound up getting my wings in August 1943, it must have been. And [telephone] then from Brandon, sporting our pilot’s wings, which made us all as happy as Larry and very proud of course, and promoted to sergeant in my case, some were commissioned but they obviously divined that I wasn’t going to make very good officer material, which was probably quite the case, but I never was anyway, and went back to Monckton. We were there very briefly, and then back across the Atlantic, this time on the Queen Elizabeth! Which wasn’t exactly a luxury cruise because there was twenty one thousand others on board on the same sailing! Which is a lot of people, in fact it was half the population of Nelson, in numbers. And it only took us what, bit under five days to cross the Atlantic. Wound back up at Gourock and then back and then all the aircrew that went back from Canada, they went to Harrogate in Yorkshire, where we went for a selection board and they said John Beeching you are, been selected to be an elementary flying instructor. I thought oh my god, that’s the last thing on this earth I wanted to be, you know! So I had nothing to argue with of course, so we were pushed to Marshalls Flying Field in Cambridge, I forget the number of the Flying School it was, but I think it was number four I think. I hated it, absolutely, I’ve got to tell you, hate Tiger Moths, I still hate the rotten things. They were cold and draughty, I didn’t like aerobatics very much anyway, so. Anyway, short of becoming a real dyed in the wool malingerer, [laugh] I managed to get myself thrown off and they said don’t you tell anybody, you know, that you’ve been scrubbed off of an instructor’s course! Blah, blah, blah. And I got a below average rating for and so this is very close to Christmas 1943 and I got successfully scrubbed off this awful, awful instructor’s course. Back to Harrogate [cough] spent a few weeks there, had nothing to do with us for a while, so they sent us on these strange assault courses and so forth, and they made a mistake of issuing us with thunderflashes, which we all secreted and used to put under people’s beds and things, which was all good fun. Don’t forget we were only what, nineteen, twenty years old, so we were only kids anyway, so it was a small part of it. And another selection board and they said well, we’ve noticed that your night vision is acceptable so you’ll be selected for night fighter pilot training so thought that’s more my thing, [cough] so from there I spent about, oh, a month I think, at the, at Cranwell which in peacetime is an Officers’ Training College, but in the wartime it was just another flying field. And now I was introduced to the Blenheim I, which was a lovely old aeroplane to fly, very safe, very easy, and after an introduction on those I went to Spittalgate at Grantham, which was an advanced flying unit where we flew Blenheim Is and Ansons and Oxfords. Flew Ansons and Oxfords on beam approach training, things like that, so we did quite a few hours there. Following which, we went to Cranfield and did a conversion course from Blenheims via the Bristol Beaufort which is a terrible, terrible aeroplane cause the ones we had were the early ones with Bristol Pegasus engines. Don’t know if they were, but mostly underpowered, terrible aeroplanes, but we only had to do ten hours on those and then they graduated us on to Beaufighters which were lovely aeroplanes, I loved the Beaufighters, you know. They’ve got me sitting in the front with these two enormous great Hercules engines, one on either side with about sixteen hundred horsepower each side, and they were lovely and there I crewed up with my navigator, Fred Herbert, who flew with me for the next few years. He was the only navigator I had [cough] and it got so he refused to fly with anybody else. Whether that’s a recommendation or not, I don’t know, but that’s the way it was. If I went sick he went sick [laugh] and we flew together right through there and then at Cranfield we spent a fair bit of time at the satellite field which was a place called Twinwoods Farm, which received notoriety because it was where Glen Miller took off from and Fred and I were the last people to ever see Glen Miller alive. We saw him climb into that Norseman, in December 1943 and, no ’44, yeah, ’44, yeah, December 1944 and he vanished and was never seen again. He had a civilian pilot and there’s been all kinds of speculation and stories of what might have happened to Glen Miller, but nobody ever really knows about that. So he joins just another one of the thousands that we lost in the North Sea. So from there we went back to Cranfield and then we were given leave and I was going to enjoy leave over Christmas, but we got called to join 169 Squadron at Great Massingham in December and that’s where I started my operational flying, from there, on Bomber Support with 100 Group, which is 100 Group Bomber Command. GT: And your aircraft type for there was? JB: Hey? GT: And your aircraft type, that you moved to, from the Beaufighter to? JB: Oh to the Mossie, yes. Yes well my transit to the Mosquito was pretty quick, I had thirty five minutes dual on the Mosquito. That was all. I kid you, didn’t even solo the same day because the weather closed in and it was another day and a half before I got my hands on a Mosquito to fly, so, and we, they only had two Mark III dual Mosquitos there at Cranfield, so nobody got much dual anyway. But anyway, they were, after a Beaufighter I found an easier plane to fly and had to watch some of the swinging on take off and landing that’s all, like all tailwheel aircraft are, but okay, and so I flew, like I say, in my log book I’ve got the serial numbers of fifty seven different Mossies and I never scrapped one, so that’s something of a record. [Cough] GT: It is. You brought them all home, that was the main. JB: Yes, and anyway, at the end of the war ended up with sixteen operations over Germany and at the end of the war we thought oh well, we’ll have a nice rest now and they said no you’re not, you’re going to Okinawa. And so they transferred us from there to, being Mosquito people, to Woodhall Spa, 627 Squadron, where 617 [emphasis] Squadron was stationed at that time because the old Dambuster Lancasters was still parked there, at Woodhall Spa. Did you ever Woodhall Spa? And the Bell pub, you know and er, you know the old Bell there, lovely place. GT: So, can we just, go back John, for you, much better about your sorties and your operations you did. What’s the targets, what did they give you as a role to do? JB: We were very individual, we didn’t take off, all together, we were classified as bomber support, and it was bomber support, we’d normally take off after [emphasis] the bomber stream left, cause we were much, we were a hundred miles an hour faster than Lancasters, and our intention and purpose was to get to the target before them and keep and sweep the sky clear of German nightfighters really, which was very successful. The Germans were absolutely terrified of us because we had the legs on them and we had the radar on them so, and you know, we were really good. But 100 Group, they were loaded up with electronic gear, mainly to jam German transmissions, that’s, you know, German transmissions, which they did and if you read that book, ‘100 Group - the Birth of Electronic Warfare’, you’ll read, it’s really worthwhile, and it takes you through that much more precisely than I could ever do anyway, but the, they had the main, apart from the Mosquitos that were in about five different stations they had Halifaxes, and 100 Group, and B17s. Two of the B17 crew people they lived right here in Nelson, both dead now, bless ‘em, just died of old age. Though Doug was a prisoner of war, he did a whole tour then was shot down on his second tour. He was a gunner, tail gunner and he um, survived the war and lived here until about three years ago, when he died. GT: So the Mosquitos you were flying and your operational sorties, what armament did you have? JB: All right, the Mosquitos we had, initially they were converted Mark Vis with Mark IV radar in the nose, like a sort of spearhead, you might have seen pictures of them, and then we graduated to Mark 10s, was British designed, American built and we had a big bulbous nose on the Mosquitos - remember those - with the scanner, about the size of that fan over there I suppose, and they was really good because pick up aircraft twenty miles away, it was really superb radar probably as good as they’ve got today almost, I would say. GT: So what guns did you have? JB: We had, well we didn’t have the machine guns because we had the radar in the nose, but we had four 20 millimetre cannon, they could do an awful lot of damage, they would demolish a house you know, [laugh] they were big guns, twenty millimetre. GT: In the nose or [indecipherable] JB: Underneath. If you look at a picture of a Mosquito, you’ll see that, you know, they were clear of the propellors so they didn’t have to re-synchronise so when you fired them they all started together, then they’d all sort of break up the noise and swing the nose and plane about, it was quite a thing: but they’re good things. GT: How many rounds a gun did you have? JB: I think we carried about, I think we carried about four hundred rounds altogether, about a hundred rounds a gun, I think. GT: And you knew how long you had, I suppose. JB: I think the rate of fire was about nine hundred and something rounds a minute, so it wasn’t a very long burst. We never fired on Dutch people, we never had the chance to be quite honest with you, we used to strafe people on bicycles. GT: So your sorties, you were strafing more than you were trying to shoot down aircraft? JB: Oh no, we did low levels as well as the high stuff, we’d fly anywhere from thirty thousand feet right down to ground level almost, you know. And of course we also did a lot of spoof raiding which carried target indicators, and we’d drop those at a place where the raid wasn’t going to be, but it was, the idea was to get the Germans to think that’s where the main raid was going to be, so we dropped couple of tons of target indicators to get the Germans going and of course the main stream would turn off and go somewhere else, which was all part and parcel of the deceit, you know. GT: Did you use Window at all? JB: We didn’t. 100 Group, thousands of tons, the Liberator would carry about seven ton of the stuff., you know, they’d chuck it out in great bundles which was good , it certainly dumbfounded the Germans much of the time, although towards the end of the war they did sort of overcome it to some extent, [lighter noise] they did overcome it to a great extent, but it worked good and then we had, then they used, ringer operators, you know, to come up cause we were using operators who could speak German giving phoney instructions to German nightfighters. Course but they, the German nightfighters were active right till the end of the war. In March I think it was, ‘45, the Germans did a big night raid on England, in East Anglia, and it was called Operation Gisela and they clobbered quite a few of our blokes, some of our blokes were killed, right on the circuit, you know, so it was quite, so they didn’t give up. As you know, the Germans fought almost to the last day. GT: So their fighters were a mixture of what, Messerschmitt 210s, 410s, Junkers. JB: Operation Gisela they had were Me109s and Fw190s, which apparently were a difficult aeroplane to fly, and even harder to fly at night and their accident rate was much, was, better than ours, they killed themselves better than we could, and they had, of course, towards, right near the end they had these wonderful Henschel night fighters and stuff which was really, really good and also Messerschmitt 262s, which they used as night fighters and in fact the Me262s squadrons were shooting down Mosquitos, they shot down about thirty all together, so they were quite active right up to the few last days of the war. GT: So did you know that when you were flying? JB: No. Didn’t even know of the existence of an Me262 until after the war. GT: You never saw one flash by and whatnot? JB: Oh no, never saw. No, no. GT: So they never gave you that kind of intel? JB: Whatever intelligence I’ve been, by and large, we were kept right up with stuff like Me163s and that sort of thing that shot straight up in the air. But no, they never mentioned Me262s, whether they were keeping it from us on purpose, I’ve got no idea, but I don’t recall ever being told about the Me262, or it would certainly have stuck in my memory. I would think, anyway. GT: So did you have the chance of using your guns in an aerial battle at all? JB: No, only on ground stuff, factories and so forth on bright moonlight nights. GT: I’m interested that Mosquito-wise, okay, you had the weaponry, did you actually do any training to do aerial combat as opposed to strafing? JB: Oh yes. Yes, we did air to air gunnery. We had a range over the Wash, and they had these yellow painted Martinets on the squadron. I remember that because landed one on a foggy morning, he landed and floated into the side of the hangar. He wasn’t killed but the man in the hangar was. So that’s how I remember how we were, how the target was, load carrying [indecipherable]. We didn’t have enough practice on air to air shooting, or the ground shooting really for that matter. GT: Did you shoot the banner at all? Did you get shots on? JB: Oh yes, I good quite good at it, but it was, my percentage was very good. GT: And you had a high percentage, sorry, did you say? JB: Yeah, I was good at it, quite good. It was good fun. Course you had to turn, you know, deflection was the thing of course, that was the thing with, most of the time everybody wanted to get right behind somebody, up the bum didn’t they, and shoot them, which is what happened at night, because we could get right in, close, with our radar and we could see our prey, quarry, invariably a Lancaster or something, and they could never see us, but they were looking down against the dark ground, we were looking up, we could see the stars and we could see their blur exhaust stumps all glowing in the dark and you think if we’d been Germans. Of course the Germans had the Shräge musik, you know, the upfiring cannons, which we never knew about, and that was very, very bad news, because we lost a lot of Lancasters solely because of Shräge musik. And they, as I say, that, we often, we get so, we used to do what was, I used to like it actually, it was called night fighter affiliation and they’d take a Halifax off from Swanton Morley or somewhere and we’d meet them over Norfolk somewhere and go do runs on them to let the gunners see and often we’d get from here to that cross just about and they still hadn’t seen us. Cause I remember one night we got up close behind this Halifax and he was sitting there waiting, waiting for it to go into a corkscrew and he called up, he says hello Kaolin 26, he said, I think we’ve lost you so I turned on the landing lights from about fifty yards behind him! I bet that gunner still wakes up at night, two million candle power! [Laughter] So that was things we used to do, but it just meant how vulnerable our blokes were, cause we really were close and he knew that we were coming, and he still didn’t see us at all. So there we are. GT: That’s something. Were your Mosquitos also able to carry bombs at all, and rockets? JB: Yes. GT: So you always took off with bombs and rockets? JB: Not always, but sometimes. Some duty, if we wanted to do a spoof with bombs, we carried two five hundred pound bombs, or target indicators, one or the other. We didn’t carry anything big till we got to Woodhall Spa when we carried, when we had the Mosquito, the Mark IVs [indecipherable] the pregnant tadpole, you know, d’you see pictures of those? They would carry the four thousand pound bombs, but we weren’t allowed to, apparently the Mossies we [emphasis] had weren’t made to carry, although we had the bulging bomb bays, they couldn’t carry the four thousand pound bomb. To me, I don’t know why, we had a notice up in the cockpit: ‘Even PO Prune would not carry a four thousand bomb in this aircraft’. So whatever the reason was I never found out. GT: I don’t expect the airframe could hold it. So something that’s always been touted was that the use of the Mosquito to bomb Berlin. Now if, for instance, the RAF managed to only produce Mosquitos instead of their four engined bombers, would they have done the business? What’s your position on that? JB: Oh yes, absolutely. I mean don’t forget the Americans, those piddling little bombs they carried, they were only five hundred pound bombs: they were next to useless. I mean until they carried big bombs, those five hundred pound bombs, they just dug little holes in the ground. Incendiaries were the thing of course. What we carried was a great big blast bomb, blow a lot of buildings down then set fire to ‘em, and that was the point, after all, what we were trying to do was finish the war, you know, and Mosquito carrying two ton bomb, they would make two trips in a night. It was only what, about two hours to Berlin, two hours back, four hours, refuel, another bomb and go away again, you know, another crew and so that was good. There was only two men in a Mosquito, there was ten men in a B17, and they both carried the same bomb load. GT: So, do you think perhaps that Bomber Command could have changed their philosophy to go to? JB: I do now [emphasis]. Of course you didn’t know at the time. GT: May have been better to switch strategies. JB: We argued about what Bomber Command did and how valuable it was, it’s never going to be resolved. Harris said you could finish the war with bombers, but you couldn’t, without men on the ground, I think that was proved in the war anyway. GT: Set fire. JB: We certainly aided towards the quickness of it, with all of the stuff we did to railways and transport and goodness knows what we done. We were allowed, after the war, to fly over Germany and have a look and see what was done; it was awful, it really was, war. I don’t know, the whole thing was pretty bad I suppose, when you think about it. But it was, to me it was pretty distressing to see that, acres, square miles all these houses just the walls standing, you know, all scurrying about like ants, clearing up the mess, you know. Terrible, absolutely terrible. Your whole thinking was in those days, like I say, obviously in London during the Blitz I saw houses demolished then, so getting a bit of own back didn’t seem to be helping a lot. Which it wasn’t. GT: It was the means of surviving and shortening the thing. JB: Yes. Anyway come what may, the war’s end, they said you’re going, when we went there, we were going to go to Okinawa, on the Tiger Force. What I didn’t realise that the Americans didn’t really want us there because they had enormous [emphasis] Air Force on Okinawa. It was really [emphasis] enormous. They had hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of B29s and Mustangs by the hundreds and they didn’t want the RAF there at all. It was their war and they wanted to keep it. Anyway, they dropped the atomic bomb so we didn’t go. So we thought ah! Finished! We’ve finished our flying! They said no you’re not, you’re going instructing, you’re going now and I was instructing on blind landing approach for the next twelve months almost. On Oxfords, on a mobile flight, 1552 BABS Flight: Beam BABS Beam Approach Beacon System. They evolved a very efficient and cheap beam landing system called BABS which used Eureka Rebecca system, beacon and homing and beacons and they just, yes, instead of killing everybody. Yes. [interference] Well BABS, it was, we had this mobile flight, of four Oxfords, which was very handy, cause they were all over England and we went to, we were teaching Transport Command pilots on how to land, on bad weather landings and as I say, it was a very efficient system, it just involved a little pickup Austin with a kind of shed on the back, and they ran it two little metal grooves at the end of the runway and shot it up and we could pick up the signal. Because, why we were chosen that job, it was the ideal job suited for night fighter crews because the navigator was at the back twiddling his knobs and he could tell you left, left, right, right, whatever, and that worked fine and so we were sort of involved with that for nearly twelve months, and we flew every day apart from bad wind. That’s how good it was. So fog didn’t stop us at all, in fact it took us longer to taxi out to find the runway than it did to fly and it was really that good. It was excellent, I thought, we had no shaky dos there. Like I say I flew nearly a thousand hours and never had an accident. The only thing ever went wrong was on an old Blenheim I, when one wheel wouldn’t come down, had to land on one wheel, but that wasn’t too bad, pretty harmless. GT: And then you didn’t catch the [indecipherable]. JB: No, no. They said land on the grass, don’t land on the runway, you’ll score it up something, it was on Somerfield Track anyway, and landed on one wheel on two points, so one wheel and the wings slowly dropped down and then I was looking at the propeller with the ends all curled up, the wing had a [indecipherable] great big slow ground loop and just stopped and that was it. Plane was flying two days later, on the flat. That was about the only bad thing ever happened. GT: So what aircraft were you doing all of this BABS training in? JB: Oxfords. Which they, they were a good aeroplane for a trainer I think, ideal anyway. But Ansons were probably easier to fly, was Ansons. The queen of the sky as far as I was concerned. You could do no wrong in an Anson. They were just delightful. GT: You and Fred [indecipherable] were friends with the gentleman who’s created the only Anson I still flying in the world. JB: Oh, I don’t say I’m a friend, but I’ve spoken to him, in fact I loaned him my Anson pilots’ notes, I’ve still got them at home by the way, my pilots notes for the Anson. But I’ve got pilots notes on most of the aeroplanes I flew, Beaufighters, Mosquitos, even got one for Lancaster. You know, you collect these things and keep them. Seventy years later. GT: Fair. So once you’d done your instructing piece there for these transport pilots, what happened to you then? JB: Oh that was, I got out in about August 1946 I think. GT: Did you want to go? Did you need to go? JB: Yes, I’d had enough. Yeah, I thought, well, I was a mug in a way, I should have stayed I suppose, you know, the Air Force was no longer like it was during the war, you know. During the week you do what you like [cough], dress how you like, don’t care [indecipherable] the week, but they don’t like that in peacetime and so I wasn’t sorry to get out. GT: Did you commission? JB: No. GT: So what did you retire as, rank-wise? JB: Warrant Officer. Which was a good rank. Pay was the same as a Flight Lieutenant, without the mess fees, you know. You only paid six shillings a month, they were paying about six pounds a month, so that was good. GT: So what was the last station you served at? Can you? JB: Um, Fort Sutton. No, Melbourne, East Yorkshire. Either Melbourne or Fort Sutton – they’re both in East Yorkshire, I’m not sure which one, but I think it must have been Melbourne we went from there to discharge Wembley. They gave us a suit and money. GT: What was your last Mosquito trips then? When was that? JB: Well that was, actually the last one the squadron flew on I was on leave, so I didn’t go and that was the last raid of the war full stop. It was on May the 7th it was, and that was on Kiel and two of our blokes were shot down on that one. My mate Doug Waite and his navigator, Doug’s still alive. He lives in Somerset. There’s only him and another chap in Cromer, they were the last two surviving pilots for that squadron, who I know, are still alive, I don’t think there’s any others. And that was my last trip must been, what, March, April, be April 1945 I suppose. Can’t even remember where it was. The longest trip we made was on [indecipherable] which was six hours and ten minutes which is a long time. We carried a lot of fuel. We carried seven hundred and sixteen gallons, which is what, about three thousand litres. GT: So what’s the total flying time in a Mosquito? JB: Well, we carried seven hundred and sixteen gallons, and each Merlin burns a gallon a minute, so that goes seven hours and I say, we had six hours and ten minutes and we still didn’t run short of fuel. They were good on fuel, you had to be stupid run out of gas. We carried one hundred gallon drop tanks. GT: Your concentration for that long in a very cold aircraft? JB: Oh no! They weren’t, they were never cold. The Mosquito was made of wood and were well insulated cause they were made of wood, and had a nice heater and was quite comfortable. I flew in a battledress, I never flew in a flying suit, nor did Fred, it was really good. No, no there was no problem there, but it was, often you were flying in cloud for four or five hours and that was very taxing because you got this awful effect where you thought you were flying straight and level but in fact you were turning. GT: So your navigator, where did he sit? Next to you or down below? JB: Sat in the Beaufighter behind, in the Mosquito, to the side. GT: And he was doing all of your navigating through the scopes? JB: No, no, did that on his knee on the back of an envelope [laughter], well he had all this radar gear in front of him which sort of eased out, he had no room, had this great big visor like this, and used to go to sleep in there and stuff, I knew when he was going to sleep, I could hear his breathing getting slower. But I didn’t mind, I could find my way home all right, you know. We had very good navigational aid - Gee, which was excellent, Gee was really good and we had a very good VHS system and they would home you from England, if you were high enough, they would give you a course for home right from the UK, it was a piece of cake. Navigation was never a problem for us. Never. GT: Thousands of aircraft in the air at once, that’s phenomenal to keep you all on track! JB: Yes, it was good. You know, when you think the sheer logistics of that was absolutely mind-boggling, you know. GT: And Fred was saying to you left, right, left, right, or was he giving a heading? JB: No, no, he was just saying alter course to oh nine two, make three hundred on the way home, you know, and there was no problem, because had a nice big sort of compass thing, you know, electric gyro. No we never had any, the only time we did have a couple of, I remember we, coming back from Germany and we come over this, we come across the land and I said to Fred where’s that, and he said oh, that’ll be the East Anglian coast and all of a sudden we were over the sea again, I said that must be the fastest crossing of England you’ve ever seen. In in actual fact, it was the strong wind, it was the Friesian Islands, in Holland, so it took us another half an hour to get across there, you know. I said we’re lost! He said we’re not lost, he says, I’m just a little uncertain of our whereabouts. [Chuckle] So I said in that case, I said how high is Ben Nevis. He says four thousand four hundred feet, I said then we’ll fly at five thousand four hundred feet. Which I did. Flying into the high ground was not difficult being in the UK. The Mossie was pretty fast, and it would get lost pretty fast too [indecipherable]. GT: That was an achievement getting every one of your Mosquito aircraft back without scratching one. Pretty awesome achievement. So when did you last see Fred, when you? JB: Ah well Fred, when, after the war, I went back to Canada. I lived there seven years actually. Fred followed me, but he joined the RCMP, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and rose to the rank of sergeant, and actually was Pierre Trudeau’s chauffeur for about three years, and we lost track of each other then and in actual fact we, Wendy and I, my wife, we have visited Fred a couple of times, in Canada, but he died about four years ago now. That was the last I saw of dear old Fred. He was from South Shields, he was, up in Newcastle, you know. He was two weeks older than me. His birthday was on October 5th. GT: It was pretty awesome for you to team up with somebody that you trusted and trusted his life with you too. So once you’d done some work in Canada, how come you’ve ended up in New Zealand after all this time? JB: Well, I was a keen motorcycle man, I was, incidentally that’s my dad there in that picture, believe it or not, and yeah, I went back to Canada, and there for seven years and I was a very keen motorcyclist and I was the national organiser for the Vincent Owners Club. You’ve heard of the Vincent, motor bike, I was the national organiser for the Vincent Owners Club for the whole of the United States and Canada. Towards the end of that time this chap Oscar van Dogen wrote to me from New Zealand, he said he wanted make a, do a working holiday in Canada, could I give him somebody to write to? I said yeah, write to me, and we corresponded with each other for the next sixty years! And he died about two years ago. [Laugh] So if you want the stories, I’ve got them, man! GT: And that’s what you did when you come to New Zealand? JB: Ah, when I came to New Zealand, this was in 1953, I landed the same day as the Queen did, on Christmas 1953. She was on the Gothic, I was on the Wanganella from Australia, and then, there was a dearth of people, of tradesmen particularly in New Zealand, you could do anything you liked and work where you liked, so I got this job in engineering place in Christchurch, A. R. Harris and they made washing machines, the Simplicity washing machines, and I worked there for a couple of years and then I got sick of that and went and got a job with the government. I was a weights and measures inspector, which was another little escapade you see. GT: Whereabouts was that? In Wellington? JB: No. In Christchurch. I was transferred to Wellington and then from Wellington I was transferred to Nelson, and from Nelson they was going to transfer me to Auckland and I said I don’t want to go to Auckland and they said you’ve got to go to Auckland and I said no I don’t – I resign! So I did and that was in, what, 1960 something, so I went to an engineering place in, down at Port Nelson, and I was there for sixteen years. So, one thing and another. GT: Now you’re, there’s been in Nelson, New Zealand there, a very strong on Bomber Command group of people that used to get together. JB: We had about twenty here when I first started with the local branch of the New Zealand Bomber Command Association, and we’ve got what three or four or something: natural attrition shall we call it. GT: And only a matter of months ago, your group, you’ve decided just to have your last lunch together, and there’s been a bit of publicity about that. JB: Yes. [indecipherable] GT: Which is, I think really across the country, many Brevet Clubs are down to several chaps only. JB: Yeah, well I fell out, we have no Brevet Club. We did have one and it closed and people joined the Christchurch one, but I fell out with the Brevet Club in Christchurch. Well we, I’m the patron of the local RSA Branch and we, also we have a Trust Fund and we also give the cadets a thousand bucks or two thousand dollars a year each, all the cadet units, and Christchurch are sitting on nearly a million dollars and they didn’t dispense any money to the cadet units at all, so I wrote and said you know, get off your backsides and give them some money and they came back all guns loaded - don’t you tell us how to spend our money blah, blah, blah! So I said stuff that and gave it away. GT: Yeah, so. JB: I don’t know, are they active? Did they have a Bomber Command Association in Christchurch? I don’t recall any of them going to the unveiling at Green Park. GT: It’s the National Bomber Command Centre that’s based, sorry Association based out of Auckland and there is barely five Brevet Bomber Command chaps in Christchurch left, so. JB: No Association as such. GT: No, they’re part of the national, New Zealand one. They do have a Brevet Club however, that’s out at Wigram air base. JB: I know they do. But I don’t belong to it. I resigned. GT: No. It’s very small now. JB: Well I hope they doing something useful with their money cause that really got up my snorter that did. Really did. I thought well what they going to do with all that money? Cause they wound up with about half a million and they had about a hundred and seventy members I think, and I thought well, for goodness’ sake, you know, put it to some use, where it’s going to do some good, what better use than the cadet units, you know, I thought. That was my thinking. [indecipherable] GT: Now, before, recently, well 2012 I guess, where the Bomber Command Memorial in London there was something that for us, the New Zealand Bomber Command Association, were planning on moving everybody over there that could go, but the New Zealand took it away from us and planned their own trip and took their own thirty odd gentlemen that they deemed could go and they looked after them very well and their decision was only New Zealanders could go. JB: We stayed in the same hotel. GT: And then I understand that there were several of you RAF chaps that emigrated here that were. JB: I was the only RAF chap on that particular trip. GT: So you managed to get over there though. JB: Oh well, the lovely people of Nelson, they raised twenty two thousand dollars. G J Gardner gave us ten grand, towards it. There were people all over the world sent money, so we said my wife Wendy could go too So Wendy and I went, with Air New Zealand stayed at the Acorn Hotel, at the, in London, in the same hotel as the people there, having said that. GT: I helped a little bit with the organisation for 75 Squadron sort of thing, the chaps, and I was in the Green Park at the back. So I understand you managed to get a seat at the front! JB: Wasn’t quite at the front, well was about two rows back. I didn’t quite shake hands with Queenie, but gave her the nod, you know. GT: Definitely. JB: Got quite, took a lot of pictures, wonderful pictures of the occasion. GT: Fascinating day. My RAF colleague and I were at the pub and waited till about seven pm, then we went down to the Memorial after they’d had opening and we had throngs of people, cause we were in uniform, asking. JB: We went to that pub called The Three Tuns, was just down the road, a really nice pub, people there. Lovely hotel, the breakfasts were marvellous! GT: I’m pleased you got to go over there to see that because many had not that opportunity from New Zealand. JB: Definity a must to see, gorgeous place for sure. GT: For sure, and all credit to those folk who organised and got that there and to look up at the statues of the chaps. JB: That, well to me it’s a shame that the people who actually cast those never got any credit at all. It should have said where that was, where the foundry was or something, because it’s some of the finest casting I’ve ever seen in my life: everything was perfect. It was really, really good. I thought well, what a shame, they’ve given the name of the bloke who designed it but they didn’t give any credit to the people who actually made it, you know. Anyway. GT: You, on this recording have now just given them the kudos. JB: Well I reckon, well they needed, they should get some kudos, because it’s so, there was things on that which people would never pick up. For example, I noticed in the, down the flying boot of one of the gunners was the toggle from the cord for cocking a Browning and I bet very few people would see that, you know, the wooden handle with the loop on the end for pulling back the breech, you know. I thought I wonder how many people will spot that? So whoever did it was very, very good on the design. GT: I understand that they, each individual airman of that trade, or job, they had veterans model. Marvellous. That’s great to hear. Thank you very much for that. JB: No, I was absolutely chuffed with that. GT: Now I also note that you have been in some way been involved, or been able to see at least, the Mosquitos that have been created in here New Zealand for flying. JB: Yes, I have. I’ve been close to them but unfortunately I thought they might have given me a trip round the circuit or something, but no luck, maybe the next one anyway. I think I’ve earned it, but they didn’t, wouldn’t ended up, wouldn’t say John you can sit in the right hand seat and we’ll give you a turn, no. Least they’d have done, but it wasn’t, they, oh we’ve got insurance problems, we can’t do this and can’t, but I notice that people like um, what’s his name, the 617 bloke who was here, his granddaughter worked the airport before, they gave him a ride in one of those. GT: Les Munro. That is special. JB: Yes, Les Munro. He got a ride in one, I didn’t. Anyway. A lot of the blokes, we, there’s a picture over there in my little corner there, all the blokes who’d flown the Mossie and supposedly people who’d flew Mosquitos and a lot of them never did fly Mosquitos: they were Lancaster people. Which a lot of them were 75 Squadron people and 75 Squadron didn’t have any Lancs, have any Mosquitos, so I know that they were sort of just getting in on the action. GT: However, 75 Squadron RNZAF [emphasis] did fly Mosquitos from 1947 to 53 at Ohakea. That might have come from, I think - JB: Oh yeah, they were talking about Second World War veterans here, so they couldn’t have done. Anyway. GT: Well I think they, a lot of them did fly Lancasters World War Two and post war, when New Zealand then was given 75 number plate and then we, they flew seventy five Mosquitos from England to New Zealand, and I think those guys went on to carry on flying those then. So that’s might have been where it was. JB: Anyway, doesn’t matter now. GT: It’s a huge thing, only a couple left out of those whole seventy, they cut them up. But look John. Just one last little thing then. Where are we now? You’ve obviously got a morning job, and it’s now roughly approaching 1pm in the afternoon so I’ve intruded on your day, but it’s been fascinating talking to you, but please tell a little about where we are and what this Institute does, because it’s a very important job that New Zealand does. JB: Well, the reason we’re here is many years ago, when they shipped wood to export to Japan, there was a team of all oldies that we used to do these eight hour shifts because we did a quality test every fifteen minutes when they were loading the ship, and they had to have people who didn’t rely on a full time job, we were called when we were needed, which was very good and when we had a midnight till eight, the morning, or no, I think it was eleven till seven and seven till three I think, and this carried on until the port got smaller cause the ships got bigger and they couldn’t load ships and also the MDF plants opened up in Richmond, so they didn’t need to send it away from Nelson any more, it could all be done from other places and they found out that old JB was still handy with his fingers, so can you fix this John, yes I can and so thirty years ago and I’ve been here ever since, [indecipherable] fixing things and I like them and they like me, you know, and it’s good, it's been lovely and that’s how I came to be with Cawthron Institute. Not because of my scientific knowledge I might tell you! GT: So what do they specifically look after and look out for here? What is their main role? JB: Well, they do scientific research of any kind. They test food, they do a lot of marine work here, there’s, you know, if you look at the history of the Cawthron in recent years you’ll see a lot of it’s tied up in marine work: fresh water, salt water, mussels, we do all the salmon testing, king salmon, you know, make sure there’s not too much mercury in the fish and goodness knows what, and all this sort of stuff. They do a lot of pure research as well, as I told [indecipherable] they inspect all the spats for mussels, so by and large I think it’s a good place. They’ve got the most, we’ve got the most diverse number of people you’ve ever seen. We’ve got Germans, we’ve got French, we’ve got Russians, we’ve got Chinese, we’ve got Japanese, we’ve got Lithuanians, we’ve got French, we’ve got Dutchmen, we’ve got Englishmen, everybody [emphasis] here and everybody gets on. It’s a wonderful place, the Cawthron, it really is. GT: And you’re the go-to fix-it man of the building. JB: Yes. Mr Fix-it, that’s me! GT: Mr Fixit. And you are how old now? JB: Be ninety five in October. GT: There you go! There’s hope for all of us to know that we can get a great old age and still be working. JB: I don’t know! I hope you sided going in the lift! GT: Well John, it’s been such a pleasure to first meet you, but second to talk to you today because the International Bomber Command Centre, I know, is looking for the beautiful stories of you men that made some huge sacrifices for us, some the ultimate, and yourself, obviously, you fought for our freedom and I thank you very much for that and I think that we’ve kind of come to it. JB: I suppose it’ll be okay. I didn’t tell you too much about my flying career when I think about it, you know. GT: I hope you’ve written a book. [Laugh] JB: It’s okay, whatever keeps them happy. GT: I’ve been in worse. Thank you sir, and I certainly appreciate your time with me today and is there one last word you’d like to give? One last word on the recording you’d like to give me? JB One last word. Well what do I say? It’s been nice meeting you, and certainly a surprise. I had a similar interview as this about three weeks ago from a man who is doing exactly what you’re doing for 100 Group because they have a reunion every year in England, in Norfolk, and he did exactly what you’re doing now, almost word for word what we’ve just said. If you can’t get that then, and also, I’ve also made a DVD of this same thing, just like you’re doing, about five years ago, which is on a DVD somewhere. if I can find it you can have that too if you want. GT: See [indecipherable]. JB: Better leave me a card so I can get in touch with you. GT: Okay John, well, thank you. We’ll end our interview there. That’s fifty three minutes that we’ve had a chat here, so. It’s been a pleasure. JB: Chop it about, cut bits out you don’t like, or whatever. GT: I’m sure they’ll like all of it, okay. So, thank you John, I appreciate your time. Thank you. Bye bye. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Benjamin Beeching Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Glen Turner Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-01-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ABeechingJB180118 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:53:28 audio recording Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource John Beeching was born in London and joined the RAF in 1941, although his initial training was in Canada. After several escapades John joined 169 Squadron as a night fighter pilot and worked in electronic counter-measures, as well as training crews in air gunnery. Post-war he saw damage in Germany and moved on to instruct in blind landings. John left the RAF and went to Canada then emigrated to New Zealand, working in a number of engineering based jobs. John came over to the unveiling of the Green Park Memorial and was active in the New Zealand Bomber Command Association. He gives his strongly held views on these and other matters. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Canada Great Britain New Zealand England--Bedfordshire England--Lincolnshire Manitoba--Winnipeg New Brunswick--Moncton New Zealand--Christchurch New Brunswick Manitoba Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Anne-Marie Watson Maureen Clarke 100 Group 169 Squadron 627 Squadron aircrew Anson B-29 Beaufighter bombing Gee Mosquito Oxford P-51 pilot radar RAF Twinwood Farm RAF Woodhall Spa Tiger Moth training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/732/10731/ACammishHS180501.2.mp3 335573b368d310af0483cc6bbc3fd591 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cammish, Harrison Stanley H S Cammish Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Harry Cammish (1923 - 2024, 1624536, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 50 Squadron and evaded after being shot down. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Cammish, HS Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document JB: That should be recording. This interview is being carried out for the International Bomber Command Centre. The date is the 1st of May 2018. The interviewer is Jennifer Barraclough. The interviewee is Mr Harry Cammish. The interview is being carried out at Mr Cammish’s home in Orewa near Auckland. Ok, Mr Cammish. Thank you very much for taking part. Can you tell me a bit about your earlier life? How you came to, and then how you came to join up? HC: Yeah. Well, my name is Harrison Stanley Cammish. I was born in Scarborough, Yorkshire in 1923. I was the youngest of a family of four. I had three elder sisters. I was the only boy. Two of my sisters actually joined the WAAF during the war. When I was fourteen years of age I was apprenticed as a carpenter and joiner in Scarborough, and was happily learning the trade when war broke out in 1939. I joined the Air Training Corps and I also joined the Home Guard. And the Home Guard gave me a rifle and forty rounds of ammunition and I had to patrol the coastline and keep England safe from the enemy. My mother would never enter my bedroom once I’d got the rifle and forty rounds of ammunition. That was it. She wouldn’t come in to my bedroom anymore. When war broke out in 1939, as I say, I joined the Air Training Corps and the Home Guard. And when I turned eighteen I, I volunteered for aircrew duties and I was sent down to a place in Bedfordshire. Cardington, I think the place was, for a three day course, selection board, and health and testing type of thing and they sent me home with an Air Force number. I was in the Air Force from that, from that day onwards. Sent me home to await call up. I was called up late, in the middle of 1942, and I went to a place called Padgate in Lancashire where we got kitted out with all our Air Force gear. From there we went to Blackpool where we had foot drill, bashing up and down the promenade there, learning how to march in time and one thing and another. And after that I got sent down to St Athan. St Athans in South Wales, where for the first time I learned that I was going to be trained as a flight engineer. The rest of the section that was with me, we’d never heard of flight engineers before but it appears that it was, we took place of the second pilot because there were so many instruments and gauges to watch that they needed another pair of eyes. I didn’t, we all, first of all did a flight mechanics course which lasted quite a few weeks. And at the end of the course, they decided to give us forty eight hours leave which was no good to me. No way could I get up to Yorkshire from St Athans in South Wales in forty eight hours so it was a case of just staying on the camp ‘til the next course started. Some of the boys that I was with didn’t want to go through all this technical training. They wanted to be flying so they volunteered to go as straight air gunners which was only a six weeks course. So, we lost a few of our section over the period of training. On the completion of the flight engineer’s course I was posted to a Heavy Conversion Unit in Lincolnshire where for the first time I met the other members who I were going to crew up with. There was a Canadian, there was two cockneys and a couple of Englishmen and we made up the crew and having done a few circuits and bumps we were posted to the operational station, 50 Squadron at Skellingthorpe. The procedure when a new crew arrives at an aerodrome is for the pilot to go with another experienced crew for a little bit of know-how but to my horror I was told that I was going to take the place of an engineer who was sick. So, I was the first of the crew to fly on operations. So, I had one, I had one op above the rest of the crew. On our third operation we were about to take off with a full bomb load and tearing down the runway the pilot lost control and we skidded off the runway and slammed into one of the hangars. Now, from this moment onwards I, I don’t have any recollection of what actually happened, but from what I was told afterwards I got out of the aircraft and took off across the airfield, climbed over the perimeter fence, went down the country lane, and the first cottage I went to I, I knocked on the door and there was an elderly couple lived there. And I told them that I’d just come from a crashed bomber and it was going to explode any minute which must have put panic in to the old couple. Anyhow, they sat me down on the settee and made me a cup of tea while the elderly gentleman went and told the policeman that there was an aircrew member in his house that had just come from a bomber. A crashed bomber. Well, the next minute the ambulance came flying down from the station and picked me up and they’d been looking for the, they’d been looking for the engineer. They’d got all the others in to the military hospital but there was the engineer missing. Then of course when they got the call from this local body, bobby down in the village that was it and I duly arrived at the military hospital after all the other fellas had been. Had been in there. When I sort of regained my full mind I,I was in the same ward as the rear gunner was and unfortunately for the poor chap he’d suffered terrible burns and all I could see was his two eyes and his fingertips peering through the bandages. And with it being a military hospital anybody that was capable of walking and that had to look after the other members in the ward and it was my job to attend to his toiletries and one thing and another. Anyhow, I, I recovered sufficiently to go back to the station and the wing commander said to me, ‘Well, Cammish, I suppose you want leave.’ And I said, ‘Well, sir, I haven’t had any leave for nine months. My mother’s never seen me since I left home.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Before you, before you go,’ he said, ‘We want you to go up for a little flight.’ And I thought oh dear. And he said, ‘There’s a crew about to take off on a night flying test and we want you to go down there and join the crew.’ So, I, I went to the dispersal unit and the crew was waiting for me. I think it was a bit of a put-up job myself. The crew was waiting for me and, and we took off and the pilot said, ‘Come up to the front,’ where the engineers are, ‘Come up to the front. Take up your position.’ And I said, horrors upon horrors we were taking off on the same runway as what we’d crashed and over to the left was this wrecked hammer line with a big hole because it had exploded after we, after we left and left quite a big hole. So anyhow, I went. I went home on leave and here was, here was a mother’s son. I’d put on about another stone. I was a sergeant in uniform. It took her all her time for mum to recognise me. I had a nice leave and reported back to the squadron and I thought I’d be sent back to the training unit to pick up another crew. But the commanding officer thought no I’d stay on the squadron as a substitute engineer for any other engineers that weren’t fit to fly. It wasn’t a very pleasant job because the crews, a crew is like a family. They rely on one another and trust one another and the stranger amongst them isn’t quite accepted by them. So it wasn’t, it wasn’t a very nice job. I had three different crews in a very short time. Anyhow, on the sixteenth operation I, well I wasn’t, I wasn’t posted for this sixteenth operation. I was getting set to have a night out in Lincoln and I got the call, ‘You’re needed to get into your gear. There’s an engineer been taken sick,’ or something. And, ‘Get into your gear.’ And it was such short notice it was, and I went to pick up my flying gear and I had a premonition. I had a funny feeling in my stomach and I had a premonition. I thought I’m not very happy about this but there’s nothing you can do about it so I joined the crew. I didn’t even know the names of the crew. I only knew the pilot’s name because it was such last minute orders. Anyhow, we, we got airborne. Everything seemed to be going all right. We weren’t far short of the target when we got attacked by a night fighter and the first thing we knew was the whole aircraft shuddered and we went out of control in a dive. The pilot’s controls were useless and the port wing was, was burning like fury so it was time to leave the aircraft. The bomb aimer, who was in the nose couldn’t get the hatch open and the pilot was kicking me on the back, ‘Hurry up. Hurry up,’ but I couldn’t do much about it. I had to wait for the bomb aimer to go. The next minute the shaft opened and out went the bomb aimer and out went I after him. And from all the bangs and rattles and crashes and fires and one thing and another it was absolute peace and quiet floating down in the parachute. I did hear the fighter droning around and I saw the bomber explode on the ground. I landed in about two feet of snow because it was winter time and took off the parachute, bundled it all into a heap and took off because our escape lectures always told you to get as far away from your landing as possible. So, I took off and headed in a westerly direction and I came across a railway line and I thought well it’ll be easier walking on the railway lines than, than through the fields and paddocks. But in those days, we had the early type suede flying boots and there’s no way you can walk long distances especially on, on a railway line. And I heard, I heard the toot of a train in the distance and I thought well if this is a goods train, a slow-moving train now’s my chance to get as far as possible from it. But it was an express train and it went past me about ninety miles an hour so there was no chance of getting on that. Anyhow, I kept walking for a several of hours and I eventually came to a small station. I didn’t know whether we were in Germany or in France to be quite honest but I saw the name on the board. Embermenil it was. Embermenil. And I thought well that doesn’t sound German and I peered through the window and there was a fellow in uniform sitting over the desk and he didn’t look German either so I thought well, I’ll risk it. So, I went in to the, opened the door and went in to the office and he looked up at me. You can imagine his surprise seeing an Air Force man in flying gear standing at the doorway and I told him, ‘RAF. RAF.’ And he put his finger up to his mouth and he said, ‘Shhhh Bosch. Bosch.’ So, I gather there was some Germans somewhere in the vicinity. And he, he took me in to the village, knocked on the door of the cottage and the door opened and he said something in French to the fella and they dragged me into the house and he went back to the station. And this was, they looked, there was only two rooms, it was a small cottage and they were obviously a farm labourer of some sort and the wife wanted to know where I’d left my parachute. She was after the silk obviously, and I couldn’t tell her where it was. My French lessons had long, long since vanished but she made, she made the expected, ‘Parachute.’ Anyhow, they took, I took all my flying gear off and I had a nice silk vest underneath and silk pants and the three of us shared the same bed ‘til the next morning [laughs] And I was, I was, the next morning the farm labourer went out and he, he came back and, and he was, I, I got the message that one of the crew was dead. One of the crew was dead. More, more, more. One of you more. And there was also he brought a poster back which the Germans were pinning up all over the place, “Ten thousand franc reward for any information leading to the capture of any airmen.” So, ten thousand francs was a lot of money to a poor hardworking labourer. Well, to anyone in France but nobody, nobody gave me away and I was there for a couple of days and then a fella came riding up on a bike and he came in to the cottage and he spoke good English and he wanted to know, A my full name, B my number, C where I was stationed, D what the target was. He wanted to know everything under the sun and then of course when he came to asking me the names of the crew I said, ‘I don’t know the names of the crew. I only knew the name of the pilot.’ Which was a bit dicey. I mean they were very suspicious. The Germans it appears had a habit of dressing someone up in Air Force uniform and then pretending they’d been shot down and then follow the escape routes right the way through and then turn around and capture the whole escape route. So, so they were, they were very, so the name, rank and number disappeared in the thin air. I told him everything I could. Even where I was born. And they must have been in touch with London because he came back a couple of days later and said, ‘Right. We’ll be escorting you to the next line.’ And he said, what, ‘We’ll send you a guide,’ and he said, ‘The guide will never walk alongside you. He will always be ahead of you and if he gets caught you get away and if you get caught he gets away.’ Which seemed fair enough to me. So, in the main time the railway man give me one of his spare uniforms. A thin railway porter’s uniform and here it was the middle [laughs] the middle of winter. I was never warm from that day onwards. I, anyhow, the guide duly arrived and we, we caught the train to the next, the next place, and it was Lunéville. Lunéville. And I was, I was billeted with a couple of old ladies that had, looked like a millinery shop to me and in this place, I was taken out and photographed and an identification card was given to me and I was, I was supposed to be a painter that’s on war work [laughs] The photograph was good but the rest of it was all foreign to me and from there, from that place I was escorted to Nancy. Nancy. And believe it or not I was, I was living in a policeman’s, a high, he was a high-ranking officer because he was taking me around in his car which had got a gas balloon on top of it in those days. And he which, when you come to think of it from a lowly labourer to a big high-ranking officer in the police force it just goes to show that there was a lot of Frenchmen who were prepared to put their neck out to help. To help us Air Force blokes get away. And from there, from his place I went out on to a farm. Mazerolles. Mazerolles. Named that. I went out on to the farm and the farmer, he was the head of the Resistance movement in that area and his wardrobe was full of guns and hand grenades and everything under the sun. And the Germans used to come daily to collect their meat and milk from him and I’d be sitting behind the curtains watching them and, and, he, he used to say to me, well funnily enough his boy could speak a little bit of English. They were teaching them at school. And, and he said he wouldn’t be taken alive. No way. He’d and he said that funnily enough he said all the Germans in this area are the oldies. The retired ones. They don’t, they don’t want to fight and they’ve told him that when the second front starts they’ll all surrender. They don’t want to be killed. They’ll all surrender because they knew very well he had something to do with the Resistance. And I helped him kill, kill the pig for the black market while I was there. The thing that they fed me most on was potatoes and milk. Potatoes and milk. I’m fed, I was fed up of the sight of potatoes and milk by the time I left the farm. From there, let me see. Oh, that’s right from there we went, went on to Paris and I was stationed in a very nice house overlooking, well, I could see the Eiffel tower out of the bedroom window and I was moving around Paris. One exciting incident, I was moving around Paris and I was on the Underground, Metro and the guide was at the front of the train coach and I was at the back and keeping my eye on him and horror upon horrors four German soldiers got in with rifles slung over the shoulders and I’m standing behind one of them and his rifle butt was hitting me in the stomach. And here’s me trying to do everything possible to not attract attention when this little old lady that was sitting down wanted to know the name of the station that we passed through and I knew she was asking me the name. She was pulling my jacket and [unclear]. And I was doing, that was the first time I’ve ever felt like hitting a little old lady. Luckily enough the guide got out and I jumped, I jumped out with him and, and everything turned out alright. And then the next, the next trip was from Paris to Toulouse in the south of France and I duly, I duly followed the guide. He gave me the tickets and I went and sat in this compartment and he went and sat in one further down. It was, it was a corridor train and right inside the train itself, at the entrance was this German soldier with his automatic machine gun slung across his chest. He was obviously on railway duty and I’m sitting in the compartment when the ticket collector came around. What, what the performance was you got into a corner and you pretended you were asleep. You didn’t look at anybody. You just kept yourself to yourself. And the ticket collector came in and I gave him the ticket and obviously there was some, something not right, I don’t know what it was and he started speaking to me and of course I didn’t know what on earth he was on about. And before I could say boo the guide who was, must have been watching all this he popped his head in to the compartment and he said something like. ‘Anglais aviateur.’ And the ticket collector snapped the ticket, went out, shut the door and all these people, there was about another eight people in the compartment they never said a word from Paris all the way down to Toulouse. They never said a word. They never looked at me. The never did anything and they could have opened that door and called the German in and collected the ten thousand francs reward if they’d wanted. Anyhow, I, we eventually arrived at Toulouse and we, we took, we took a train. Well, there was another guide came along. I’ve got to think about this. There was another guide came along and we went on another train tracking down the foot of the Pyrenees. We stopped at a little small place and he told me to get out and I got out and there was, there was a group oh about twenty or so people hanging around there and I saw these, these guides with their sten guns over their shoulder and they, they ushered us all together and we went for a short walk up the mountains and into a big shed. And they more or less told us that first thing in the morning we’d be off over the mountains and they gave us something to eat which was very rare. I’d had very little to eat and drink. And so we were, we were sitting. I’d taken my shoes off because they were quite uncomfortable and it was dark but I could hear American voices talking and I thought oh there must, it must be a whole group that’s going over the mountains. And I don’t know how long it was but the next minute there was bursting of automatic fire. Bullets flying everywhere and one of the guards came in and said, ‘Bosch. Bosch.’ You know, ‘Get out. Get out.’ So, everybody started running for the door and I’m trying to get my shoes on. I was, I think I was, I think I was the last man out. Out of the shed. I didn’t know where I, which direction I was going. I was just running and there was one or two of them sitting around, you know with their hands up. And I thought, a little voice said, well Harry, you’ve got this far. You might as well go the rest. So, I kept pounding on and I don’t know what happened to them. The rest of them got caught of course but I don’t know why they missed me. They had dogs with them. Anyhow, I was in the mountains for, that was one day, one night. Two days. Two nights. Three days and two nights I think it was before, and course walking up mountain after mountain you could look back and you could see your foot prints in the snow. And I’ve often thought afterwards why on earth didn’t the Germans catch me? You could look back and see your footprints right the way miles back. But somebody was looking after me alright that time. And I’d gone over one mountain and down below I could see the green fields and I thought oh this is it. And it takes as much to get down a steep hill as it does to climb up them and especially if you keep sinking in the snow all the time. In the morning the snow would be quite slippery and you’d take one pace up and two paces backwards and by mid-morning you’d be up to your calves in it and then by late afternoon well you were really trying to struggle to get ahead. Anyhow, I got, I got down the hill and there was a, there was a fella looking after goats by the, I really have to try and think about this. Was it goats or sheep? It doesn’t really matter. He was looking after them and I said, ‘Spain?’ And to this day I remember him saying, ‘Mais oui, monsieur. Spain.’ And I thought I’ve gone around in a circle. I’m still in France. I thought, horror of horrors. Anyhow, on one of the brick walls I saw this big painting of “Viva Franco.” So, I knew very well I’d, I’d made it to Spain and I staggered. He didn’t bother to help me or anything and I staggered down in to the local village there and the policeman with his big black hat came out and took me in to the cells. So, I was inside the jail but obviously the condition I was in my lips were swollen, my fingers were all swollen. I had frostbite in my feet. He, he got somebody in to look after me but I couldn’t drink. I couldn’t do anything. I was stuffing snow in my mouth over the mountains just to keep from getting dry. And anyhow I, I spent about three days in this little village. What was that? Viella. Viella. That was it. Viella, in Spain. I spent three days and it was a village that was snowbound from the rest of the country by all accounts. But someone must have got in touch with the English Consulate because I was, from the jail I went to live in the only, stay in the only hotel in the place and I was told that you know whatever I wanted I could have. They always had plenty of wine to give away so, and I wasn’t a wine drinker in those days but I am [laughs] I soon learned. Diamante and Monopole was the best two wines [laughs] and, and I gradually, oh and there was, in the village was, was a couple of German deserters and they followed me about like sheep because they didn’t have any money and I didn’t want them anywhere near me because a lot of the Spanish were very pro-German. Especially the higher up. The officials. The working class people were like the working class people everywhere. They’d give you help and this, that and the other and I spent I don’t know how many days it’s so long ago now but I spent a few days in [pause] And I remember one incident. I took the bottle of wine down to the, to the river and I dropped off to sleep with siesta time and when I woke up again the wine was still intact, the money I had, pesetas was still intact. Nobody, nobody would touch it and the policeman, he came to me and he said, ‘We’re walking out now. We’re going. The snow has thawed enough for us to get over the top.’ So, I said, I said. ‘Oh righto. Righto.’ So, we’re, I’m trudging behind him still with this porter’s uniform on, still will these patent leather shoes on which [laughs] I’m, I’m coming up over the hill and I wasn’t too happy with him. He didn’t smile or anything like that and I wasn’t very happy and I got the impression he might be going to pop me off in the snow and just forget about it you see. You get all sorts of impressions. So, I kept close behind him because he was smaller than me and I’m sure I could have overpowered him and, and he took off his rifle off his shoulder and I thought get ready, and he offered it to me. He’d seen a rabbit and he wanted me to have a pot shot at the rabbit [laughs] So once that happened I was quite happy then. I knew I was quite safe, and we got over the mountains in to, oh I forget the name. I forget the name of the first place I got to and here was, here was a representative of the British Embassy waiting for me. And of course, he looked at me [laughs] and we went shopping and I had a real nice outfit. Shirt, trousers, sports coat but they had difficulty finding a size nine shoe [laughs] Yeah. Anyhow, there I was dressed up to kill and he took, he took me out for a meal. We went out for this meal and I’m thinking these, these little bits of meat’s lovely. It wasn’t until afterwards I found out I’d been eating snails [laughs] but they were, they tasted very nice. Then I went down to [pause] where was it? I forget the name. It was, it was, it was a sort of a holding place and that’s where I met some Americans that had come over the top and there was a whole group of them in, in this hotel and it was the first time ever that I think that an RAF man had more money in his pocket than the Americans had [laughs] But the pay clerk at the British Embassy said to me, ‘How long is it since you’ve been paid?’ And I said, ‘Thirteen weeks.’ And he said, ‘Oh, and what is your pay?’ And I told him and he said, ‘Well, when, when you’re wanting a bit of cash come in and see me.’ And he was a, he was a man from Hull which is just a few miles down below Scarborough and he was a Yorkshireman and I think he had a bit of a guilty complex that here he was in a nice country because there was lights, there was food, there was fruit. There was everything you could dream of and I think he had a bit of a guilty conscience that he was living like that and here was us in England suffering bombing and such like. So, I used to go regularly and collect my two hundred and fifty peseta and I, I’d go out, go out with the Americans and we would go into a bar and the only thing I can order was, ‘Cerveza. Cerveza.’ ‘Beer. Beer. Beer.’ Anyhow, I thought I’d better take some souvenirs. I’d better take some souvenirs home with me. So, I, I got some cigars for my dad. I got some 4711 for my mother and then I thought well, stockings. Silk stockings is always, is always wanted so I went into this lady’s shop and the two young assistants bustled me out, ‘No. No. No. No.’ Spanish men never went in to women’s shops. In fact, the ambassador said to me, he said, ‘Whatever you do,’ well not the ambassador but his representative, ‘Whatever you do,’ he said, ‘Don’t stare at the women and don’t wink at the women,’ you know. Don’t do any. ‘Don’t attract attention at all. Just keep a low profile because there’s quite a lot of people don’t like the British in here.’ In one case what actually happened Franco I think was coming up by train and they made sure I stayed in the hotel that day. Didn’t go outside the hotel. But getting back to the shop, these two assistants tried to shove me out and I said, ‘No. No. No, Senorita. Stockings,’ and there was a glass female leg on the counter with a stocking on it and I said, ‘This is what I want.’ And, ‘No. No.’ They, they weren’t having anything of it. And then an old assistant, she’d be in her forties I should think she came out and she said, ‘Inglesi?’. And I said, ‘Si Si. Inglesi.’ And she must have said something to the girls about these Englishmen are all mad or something because the girls started giggling and the old lady got me the stockings that I wanted, I wanted out. So, so that then from, from Madrid, I went down right to the south. A place called La Linea and there was the border to crossing to go to Gibraltar and it was just a case of jumping on a bus and going across the crossing and I, on this side there was, there was Spanish soldiers armed to the teeth. They were everywhere. Soldiers. And I got on the bus and crossed over. When I got out of the bus at the other side there was a kilted Scotsman with a rifle and a fixed bayonet and I said, I said, ‘There’s a whole platoon of Spanish soldiers over there.’ And he said, ‘Oh, I’m up to that. I’m up to that,’ he said [laughs]. Anyhow, Gibraltar. I got, I got kitted out again in uniform and I had this little kit bag where I had all my, all my loot in there. All the thingamybobs. And I got priority to fly back to England and I’m, I’m in this Dakota with several high-ranking officers and such forth. Probably wondered what is this fella coming on here for? We eventually got to Whitchurch I think it was. Near Bristol, and I’m going through the customs and one of the customs officers said, ‘What are have you, what are you doing amongst this, all this high brass?’ And I said, ‘Oh, I’m an escaped prisoner of war.’ He said, ‘Oh, is that right?’ and he put a big chalk on my bag and I walked through without any inspections at all and the others had to open their bags and be inspected. And I had more loot than all those put together, I think. Anyhow, as I get through the customs there were a couple of nice gentlemen waiting for me and they said, ‘Oh, we’re escorting you back to London.’ I said, ‘Can’t I send a message home telling them — ’ ‘No. No. No. No. You can do all that after you’ve been to London.’ Now, my mother had never heard a word from me from that day until I landed in Gibraltar and she hadn’t a clue if I was alive or not so you must, you can see what she must have been going through. Her and dad. And I got, we got to London. I think it was MI6 or MI5 I forget what they were and they interrogated me. Wanted to know, you know questions like, ‘What’s the name of the cinema in your home town?’ You know, just general intelligence questions. Well, of course I sailed through those questions and I, I had to report to a WAAF officer and she said to me, ‘Alright,’ she said, I’m, I’m the pay. I’ve got to give you the pay for, when were you last paid?’ And I said, ‘Thirteen weeks ago.’ I didn’t tell her I’d been to told the fella in Hull it was thirteen weeks. Thirteen. ‘Oh, you haven’t.’ ‘No. No.’ So, she worked out what thirteen weeks pay was and this, that and the other and then she said to me, ‘And did you lose your wristwatch?’ And I said, ‘No. No. We didn’t carry wristwatches. Only the navigator.’ And she said, ‘Oh, I’m sure you must have had a wristwatch so we’ll put ten pounds down there. And what about shoes?’ I said, ‘No. No. We had flying boots. Didn’t wear shoes.’ And she was quite right in one respect. She said, ‘Weren’t you told to take a pair of shoes with you when you wore suede boots because of the walking?’ And I said, ‘Oh yeah, but I never did.’ ‘Oh,’ she said, ‘We’d better put something down for a pair.’ And she boosted my pay up by another fifteen pounds which I thought was very nice of her. And I went home. I went home for three weeks. Three weeks leave. And when I reported back again there was no counselling in those days but I did have to go and have a talk with, we used to call them trick cyclists but I think it was [laughs] trick cyclists we called them. And I had to go and have a talk with him and I thought it was a bit odd. Anyhow, the next thing I was, I was posted to, back to St Athans on a refresher course. So, I thought well that’s quite good so I went back to St Athans on the refresher course and I’d only been back about three or four weeks when I got posted to a Mosquito training unit of all things. I hadn’t a clue what I was doing there and I reported to the officer I had in the Training Command and he said to me, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘We asked for someone to come up. These pilots have all been flying Beaufighters. Radial engines, and we needed someone to tell them about inline. The Merlin 21 engine. So, we’ve asked for an instructor.’ And I said, ‘I’ve never instructed in my life.’ You know. ‘Oh. Well, you know about Merlin engines.’ I said, ‘Well, yeah.’ ‘And we’ve got the charts to hang on the walls so it’s just a case of pointing out.’ And I soon learned that these fellas, they didn’t want to ask any questions. All they wanted to do was get flying so they never asked any awkward questions. Quite the opposite. If they saw me in the local village pub they’d buy me free beer. And, and I was a flight sergeant and some of these blokes were flight lieutenants with decorations. DFM and that. But the officer in the training said, ‘As soon as you put that white jacket on you’re the boss in that classroom.’ So, from me being very hesitant it turned out to be quite a cushy number. But I made the fatal mistake in criticising some of the way things were done which I shouldn’t have done. But in those, I mean I’m an ex-flying man. I’m ex-Bomber Command. These are only training bods, you know. So, I felt a bit superior to them which proved my undoing because it got back to the officer in charge and he said, ‘Well, if you don’t like the way we do things, Cammish,’ He said, ‘We can soon fix that.’ So, from Shropshire I was posted up to Inverness. Right in the north of Scotland and they said [laughs] I got there, it was a Coastal Command station, they didn’t know why I was doing there. What I had come from. They hadn’t flown for several days because of the icy conditions. So here was me stuck up in this Coastal Command station for about two weeks before somebody thought we’d better get rid of him again. So, I went from there down to [pause] from the north of Scotland I went down to South Cerney in Gloucester which was very nice. And then they decided that I really should go on a flying control course. I weren’t doing engineering any more. So, I went from South Cerney to Charmy Down near Bath to train on a, on a flying control course which I did and that’s where I met my dear wife. We were married in Bath Abbey and had a happy fifty five years of married life. But getting back to that, I’m at Charmy Down and we did the flying control course and what we finished up doing was as the Americans were leaving the country we, we were a skeleton crew that had to go and shut down the station. No aircraft were allowed to fly. You know. And that was a very cushy number too. We, there was about sixty of us and we put down rations for about a hundred and sixty so we were fed well. In fact, the last, the last few months in the, in the Royal Air Force was very, very relaxing for me. Very relaxing. I went from flying control to Snaith in South Yorkshire. And that was another funny thing. When I was stationed in Bath, in Charmy Down they asked me where I’d like to be stationed and the old trick is you put the opposite side of the country because that’s where they’ll point you to. But this time they got it right. I asked to go to Yorkshire and I got posted to Yorkshire and here I had to leave the wife in Bath. So that was a big boo boo, but never mind. I was at, I was at Snaith for several, several weeks and then I went to Dishforth and Dishforth was the last port of call. That was the last station I was on before I was demobbed. And at Dishforth the, of course the, your record, my records anyhow never caught up with me on the station. They were always one or two stations behind and at Dishforth you had to wait for your records to catch you up. And some of the fellas that were getting ready for demob were called in to the Pay Accounts and they came back saying, ‘They want another five pounds for mess.’ And this that and the other. Crumbs. You know. And I’m thinking blimey what’s going to happen to me? I’ve been claiming thirteen weeks pay in Spain, thirteen weeks pay in London [laughs] And, and with shifting so quickly as I say they just used to say to you, ‘What’s your rate of pay?’ Well, I was getting fifteen and six pence you know. Which was, which was good money and they’d work it out and say, ‘Well, we owe you this.’ And righto. I thought, blimey. I thought when I go up to Pay Records they’re going to say to me, ‘Mr Cammish,’ Well, I was a warrant officer then, ‘Warrant Officer Cammish, we’ve got three thirteen weeks pay [laughs] pay you owe us.’ And anyhow, I went. I went in to the Pay Section and of course when I went into the Pay Section and of course when I went missing there was a line drawn across my record, you know. And then there was another line when I come back again. And that had them bluffed a little bit and, well he said, ‘You just about, we owe you so much money by all accounts.’ And I said, ‘Oh, is that right?’ Yeah. So here I am, all those three thirteen weeks pay and I don’t owe them any money. So, I thought, well that’s great. So, I sailed down to Wembley and got my [pause] oh no. That’s right, before I left, before I left, one of the stations the commanding officer said, ‘Well, we spent a lot of money training you. You’d, you’d like to stay on the Air Force, wouldn’t you?’ And I said, ‘No. Not really.’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll guarantee you’ll only drop two ranks and then you’ll, you’ll — ’ and I said, ‘No.’ And he said, ‘You’ve made up your mind.’ It was so nice at the start but when I kept saying no his voice definitely turned nasty and he said, ‘Alright then. Clear off.’ And I said, but some, some of the fellas I knew, especially one, he was a warrant officer gunner, air gunner and he fell for this malarky that he wouldn’t drop because he wanted to fly. He loved flying. And I said, and I found out he never flew again. They put him in the Air Force Regiment. That’s like the ground crew, you know and he never flew again and he couldn’t get out of the Air Force quick enough after the war. But I wanted to, I wanted to get back to civvy life. The old bullshit was coming back. Fifty yards before headquarters you marched to attention and fifty yards after and all the rocks around the blinking place was going to be painted white and, and of course the, the regulars which, which put up with us at the start of the war started getting the better of us in the finish so life wasn’t very nice. So, I got out. Got back into Civvy Street. Got back in to the building trade. Didn’t like the way things were in England at the time so I emigrated to New Zealand in ’56 and I’ve been here ever since. I’m ninety four years of age and I’ve never regretted a day coming to New Zealand. That’s it. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harrison Stanley Cammish Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Barraclough Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ACammishHS180501 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:50:33 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Civilian Description An account of the resource Harrison Cammish was born in Scarborough in 1923 and, when he was 14, he became an apprentice carpenter and joiner. When war broke out, he joined the Air Training Corps, and the Home Guard, who gave him a rifle and 40 rounds of ammunition. At the age of 18 he joined the RAF for aircrew duties and was sent to RAF Cardington for selection and training. He was sent home with his RAF number to await call up. He was sent to RAF St Athan via RAF Padgate and RAF Blackpool to train as a flight engineer. He did his heavy conversion and was posted to 50 Squadron at RAF Skellingthorpe. On his 16th operation he had a premonition that, as he was called to do the operation at the last minute, he was not going to be happy with the flight. They were just short of the target and their aircraft was hit by a night fighter. He baled out and landed in occupied France. Heading west along a railway line, he came to a small station where he knocked on the office door and, from there, he was taken to a nearby cottage. After arriving at Toulouse ready to cross into Spain he and his comrades were attacked by the Germans. Following a narrow escape over the mountains, he made it into Spain and was put in contact with the British consulate. He was repatriated back to the UK via Gibraltar and, following a spell of leave and a refresher course, he was posted to a Mosquito training unit to train crews on the Merlin engine. He ended up at RAF Charmy Down near Bath to do a flying control course, where he met his future wife. His last posting was to RAF Dishforth and he was demobbed from there. He decided not to remain in the RAF but to go back into civilian life, eventually emigrating to New Zealand in 1956. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. France Great Britain Spain New Zealand Gibraltar England--Bedfordshire England--Lincolnshire England--Yorkshire England--London France--Toulouse Wales--Vale of Glamorgan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke 50 Squadron aircrew bale out civil defence evading flight engineer Heavy Conversion Unit home front Home Guard Lancaster Mosquito RAF Cardington RAF Dishforth RAF Skellingthorpe RAF St Athan Resistance shot down training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/754/10752/ACoulsonW180207.mp3 0e9d5b6e44f81a7e472aa3fe9680857b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Coulson, Bill William Coulson W Coulson Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Tony Coulson about his father, Warrant Officer William Coulson (1921 -2018). He flew operations as an air gunner with 138 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Coulson, W Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document TC: Right. We’ll do some of the stories. The, the [pause] the ones that do the personal bit and then let me just think. I need to do the Clarkson story. The Duraglit one and the, my mother’s and the, my mother’s and that would — MG: Ok. TC: Some of the incidents that Bill has told us through the years concern, and reactions to the flights or the operations that he’d been on. And one particularly bad operation coming from Norway they’d been beaten up by a lot of flak and they managed just to scrape into an emergency runway in, on the coast of England. They got there and they were debriefed, and they were sent to the mess to get something to eat and they were eating there with their aeroplane, you know being rescued from the mess that it was in and they went in to the mess, ate and Bill Clarkson thought I’d like some more bread. He said to the other lads, ‘Anybody else want some more bread?’ And some of them said yes. So he went up to the young WAAF who was on the counter and said, ‘Excuse me, can I have some more bread please.’ And she looked at him and looked at the lads and then said, ‘More bread? Don’t you know there’s a war on?’ It took the rest of the crew about ten minutes to calm Bill Clarkson down and to inform the young lady that yes indeed they know. The did know there was a war on. Another incident that occurred was when they were sent out to take a spy over to France and they were returned because of bad weather. The operation was cancelled and [pause] Sorry. It wasn’t France. Another operation was when they were sent to send a spy over to Norway and the operation was cancelled due to bad weather and so they had to fly and they ended up in Kinloss. They had their flying gear on and they were received until the, everything went well until the next morning when they’d taken their flying gear off and they were standing by the Lancaster and a particularly officious Red Cap came along and said, ‘Why is that guy in civilian gear?’ Because obviously he was a spy and he’d been dressed to land and blend in to the Norwegian background. ‘Where’s his papers?’ And obviously being a spy he didn’t have any. And so then they mustered the guard to come to this aeroplane and it took all of Heck’s persuasion and finally pulling seniority and phone calls before they were able to fly off and take the spy back where, to Tempsford where he’d come from. Another one concerns my dad’s marriage to my mother in February of 1944 [pause] They got married on February the 8th. February the 8th 1944. Sorry. Another story concerns my dad’s marriage to my mother in February 1945. They got married in Scunthorpe. The crews came up to Scunthorpe and helped with the celebrations and my mother was walking along again with a pilot on each arm and about fourteen young men surrounding her going to the dance hall in Scunthorpe saying, ‘I can’t decide who I’m having the first dance with.’ And my dad piped up, ‘Yes, you can. It’s me.’ And later on they honeymooned in London, again with both crews because they were all on leave together and it didn’t seem unusual that they should all stick together even on their honeymoon. And previous to the trip out in London my dad had said to my mother, ‘Oh, it’s important I get some Duraglit. I’ve got to actually clean my uniform and so she said, ‘Right. We’ll do that and make sure. I’ll remind you later.’ And so the two crews are walking down a side street in London and they see a barber’s shop. And above it was the legend, Durex, which was a well-known prophylactic. But in my mother’s rather confused and maybe over excited mind she’d mixed that up with Duraglit and so she piped up, saying, ‘Bill, you said we’d need some of that for later.’ Bill’s comments to me on the event was, ‘And you know neither of those crews ever repeated that story to me for the rest of the time that I knew them.’ Yes. Another rather tragic bit of that story was the second week. Dad was at Tempsford and it was obviously a secret aerodrome. Even people in the area didn’t know about its existence and my mother knew that. [ringtone – interview paused] Another sad aspect of that honeymoon was the second week that my mother spent in digs near Tempsford. Sorry. [unclear] again. Sorry. I’m not thinking. MG: That’s not a problem. TC: Another sad aspect of that honeymoon was mother was staying in digs near Tempsford which was obviously a secret aerodrome. They were dealing with SOE and other nefarious organisation and so the locals, many of them didn’t even know it was an aerodrome. Many of them just thought it was a farm. Or at least that’s the story we were told. She was going to the market in town and she got on the bus. Now, out of the window she saw a Stirling on training exercises. Now, she knew that my dad was on training on that day and this was February 1945. The 14th. And so she thought, ‘Oh, that might be Bill up there on training. There were only three of the Stirlings on training that day so she knew Bill might be one of them. Unfortunately, an American Mustang pilot at the same time who’d been involved in the training exercises decided to try one last attempt at a low-level attack on the Stirling and he misjudged the timing and actually took the tail end of the Stirling off as he crashed into it. And both aircraft fell to the ground and were, nobody survived obviously. My mother was twenty one, married for a week and she’d just witnessed a tragic accident that meant that possibly she had a one in three chance of having lost her husband. You can imagine how distraught she was. Furthermore, there was no way that she could get in contact with the aerodrome because it was a secret aerodrome and therefore had no contact with the public whatsoever. And so she had to wait until 6 o’clock that night to find out when my dad came out of the camp to see whether he was alive or not. One interesting story with that was that as the bus went along and my mother was in tears and being comforted by some other stranger that she didn’t even know was the local bobby was riding on his bike to investigate the accident and he flagged down the bus and put his bike on it and said, ‘Take me to Tempsford.’ Right. That’s two stories. What’s the name for it. Do you want just the last one of course. I’ll just finish. Right. Bill’s war career must have been an extraordinary event for a young lad from Scunthorpe. Never been out of town. No formal education. Left school at fourteen. And it was something that I know did shape him as a person but something also that he didn’t ever really talked about other than at the ludicrous level when, when I used to ask him as all little kids did, ‘Dad, what did you do in the war?’ And he said, ‘Well, I used to fly in aeroplanes and me and Churchill used to have a cricket bat and used to fly over Germany and hit people on the head.’ I said, as I grew older I said, ‘That’s ridiculous. Come on. Tell me.’ He said, ‘Well, I used to drop mail and supplies.’ And he said, ‘I didn’t mind dropping the supplies but the mail was difficult. Especially when they had the lower letterbox.’ And it was that kind of facetious attitude that dad had all the way through until about twelve, fifteen years ago and he’d reached eighty odd. We’d taken him to RAF Duxford for his eightieth birthday and he just wanted another flight. So he paid all his birthday money. In fact, quite tragically he said, ‘I know you’ve given me this money. Do you mind if I spend it on this flight?’ And it was a 36 de Havilland that was doing joy rides around Duxford. And we said, ‘No. Of course not.’ And he went up there and that kind of triggered things, the trip to Duxford and he did start talking more and more about it. And even then when he went to work part time, at eighty he was working part time at Scunthorpe United on the gate and he used to tell some of the older gate men some stories and he became affectionately known as Gunner Bill. And even to that day I still work at the ground and they ask me about, ‘How is Gunner Bill doing?’ MG: Ok. Thanks very much Tony. That’s been really helpful and obviously thanks to Bill for allowing us to be, to be here with him and I’ll stop now. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tony Coulson Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael Grant Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-02-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ACoulsonW180207 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:12:07 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Second generation Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Lincolnshire Description An account of the resource Tony Coulson's father Bill Clarkson was flying on operations from RAF Tempsford dropping agents and supplies over occupied territory. On one occasion they were recalled due to bad weather and had to return with the agent on board. Obviously, he was in civilian clothes and caused a security incident at the aerodrome. On another occasion when the aeroplane Bill had been flying on had been badly damaged and they had been forced to make an emergency landing. When Bill and his crew asked for more bread with their meal they were met with the incredulous words of the WAAF, ‘Don’t you know there’s a war on.’ Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944-02-08 1945-02-14 138 Squadron air gunner aircrew crash Lancaster love and romance RAF Tempsford Stirling https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/755/10753/ACourtPR171211.1.mp3 f5adb26711d51c0b4874459a61b47524 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Court, Percival Robert P R Court Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Robert Court (b. 1924, 1728924 Royal Air Force). He served as a rigger and airframe fitter. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Court, PR Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the, Monday the 11th of December 2017 and I am in Reading with Bob Court to talk about his life and times and starting with what are your earliest recollections of life, Bob? PC: I don’t know. Being [pause] at a place called Organford where there were floods. My mother was sat with her feet in the water and nursing me. Then the old chap was going off to work and he left his Hunter watch on the bed head so I could hear it ticking. That’s my earliest memory. CB: What did your father do? PC: He was a post office engineer. Linesman. CB: Whereabouts? PC: Dorset. CB: And what did that involve? PC: Well, in those days the, during the winter months the snow would bring the lines down and they had to go and put them back up. So it meant travelling about all over the place. CB: Right. And where did you go to school? PC: Poole. National school. National Boy School, Poole. CB: Any exciting times there? PC: Oh yeah. I thought they were all exciting [laughs] Yeah. It was ok. I managed to keep to the top of the heap all the time so life was pretty, pretty easy. CB: Did you develop a main interest? PC: Woodwork, I suppose. I don’t know. My mother wouldn’t let me go to the Grammar School. They wanted me to go and take the exam. But my mother wouldn’t let me go. CB: Why was that? PC: Probably she couldn’t afford it. But in, in retrospect I say she probably saved my life. CB: Because? PC: If you’d have gone to the Grammar School you’d have been aircrew. CB: Right. PC: Not many of them survived. CB: Right. Right. And what age did you leave school? PC: Fourteen. CB: Then what? PC: Then what? Well, I worked for this furniture company. And then when I was old enough volunteered for the Air Force. CB: Yeah. But first of all what did you do? PC: What do you mean what did I do? CB: Well, immediately after you left school what did you do? Before you went to the furniture company. PC: I worked for a friend of a member of the family who had a radio business. And I suppose, I don’t know when I turned up, when they packed up. And I went to the Labour Exchange because I had a suit on I suppose they thought here’s a chap for the shop, for this furniture store. CB: So what did you do in the furniture business? PC: Well, repairing, French polishing. All sorts of things really. Selling it. Delivering it. CB: You said you were interested in carpentry at school. So did that put you in good stead for what you were doing for the furniture company? PC: I suppose it did in a way. Yes. I suppose it did. CB: So were you an apprentice there or — PC: Yeah. CB: Right. And how long were apprenticeships in those days? PC: This one was three years I think it was. Yeah. Three years, I think. Three years, I think. Three or four years. CB: So, you were born in 1924. PC: Yeah. CB: And that meant that when the war started what age were you? PC: Fifteen. CB: And what reaction did you feel with the start of the war? PC: Pretty good [laughs] I didn’t think we were going to lose. Never entered my head that we might lose. I didn’t realise how close it was but at the time no you wouldn’t. Never thought of it. CB: So, this is when you’re working for the furniture company. PC: Yeah. CB: What did you do that was related to the war at that stage because you were too young to sign up. PC: I did a bit of firewatching. We had to do that every night. Well, not one night a week at least. Then they started introducing payment so I did two nights. Sometimes three. It wasn’t very onerous. CB: What did you have to do? PC: Well, just keep a watch out for incendiary bombs because they were using a lot of those at the time. And put out any fires they might cause. Fortunately, in my area they didn’t cause any. So I was alright. Not bad at all. CB: So what did they, what title did you have for that task? Fire watching. Was that ARP or what was it? PC: No. It wasn’t ARP. Just fire watchers or something. CB: Right. PC: I don’t know. Who was it introduced it? [pause] I think it was Morrison, wasn’t it? Morrison. CB: Herbert Morrison [pause] But what did you actually have to do in fire watching? PC: Well, keep, keep an, keep your eyes open for any incendiaries that might land near you. CB: I was thinking did you have a base to work from or did you walk the streets or what did you do? PC: No. We had a room over a shop that we used to sleep in. And any air raids we’d go out and wander around the streets. CB: Right. And you had a supervisor or who controlled what you were doing? PC: Yeah. We had a chap who owned one of the shops. Well, he owned a chemist shop and he was the chap in charge. Yeah. CB: So what did you find in there? PC: Hmmn? CB: You’re looking in your book. What have you got in there? PC: Oh, I’m just trying to remember what was going on. The Dunkirk business. CB: Well, we can come back. Let’s talk about Dunkirk then. So you remember Dunkirk in 1940. PC: Yeah. CB: What do you remember particularly about that? PC: Well, when was it? CB: Because you’re in Weymouth. PC: Germany attacked Poland. No. I was in Poole then. CB: Oh, in Poole were you? PC: The Phoney War. Holland. The occupation of Denmark and Norway. The evacuation of Dunkirk. I remember watching soldiers coming in to Poole Quay on any craft that could make the journey. CB: Right. When they landed then what happened to them? PC: Tea, cigarettes, beer and food being given to the bemused troops. Pitiful to see them. Did not appreciate — CB: What sort of state were they in? PC: Not very happy. Glad to be out of where they were though. CB: Were they upright, bedraggled or what were they? PC: Well, they were a bit bedraggled but apart from that they were ok. Glad to be out of there. That was all. CB: Yes. PC: Yeah. CB: So after that you continued with your fire watching. PC: Yes. CB: Did you join the ATC or — PC: Yeah. Yeah. I joined the Air Training Corps. CB: Right. And when was that? That was when you were what age? Was it at the time of fire watching? PC: Yeah. Obviously [pause] when were the ATC formed? When was that? [pause] PC: Yeah. Herbert Morrison was the one who said all persons between sixteen and sixty register for fire watching duties. CB: Right. PC: So, I, they used to pay four and sixpence. Twenty two and a half pence per night. I didn’t earn much so I volunteered to do two and sometimes three nights a week. CB: Yeah. PC: Which helped my salary immensely. CB: Can you remember what you earned when you were working for the furniture company? PC: Yeah. Twelve [pause] twelve and sixpence. CB: Did you? PC: Or sixty two and a half pence. CB: Yeah. PC: Per week. The Air Training Corps was in 1941. And I joined in March 1941. CB: The ATC. PC: Yeah. CB: Yeah. So, now you’re coming up to be old enough to join the forces. What made you join the RAF rather than the Army or the Navy? PC: As I said, I couldn’t swim. And I didn’t like the brown jobs. They got too close. So, I thought the Air Force might be a bit safer. CB: Right. PC: Which it proved to be. CB: So, what, what was the process then of joining up? PC: I went to [pause] where did I go? I went up to Southampton I think. Volunteered. CB: Did you go to Cardington as a start? PC: Yeah. CB: What happened at Cardington? PC: I went to [pause] joined [pause — pages turning] Yeah. Cardington. Somewhere. I volunteered. It was possible to volunteer at seventeen and a half. CB: Yeah. PC: I did that in February ‘42. Volunteered for service as a flight mechanic. CB: Right. PC: Report to the centre of Southampton for a medical and attestation. Bear true allegiance to His Majesty King George the Sixth, his heirs and successors blah blah blah. Got the King’s Shilling in the form of a postal order. CB: Oh, you did. Right. PC: I was hoping to be given a shilling but they didn’t. They give me a bloody postal order. I should have saved it but I didn’t. So, I went to, and I was with the ATC at their Fleet Air Arm place at Sandbanks and I had to report to Cardington. CB: Right. PC: Yeah. Never been outside the county ‘til then. CB: So, what did you do at Cardington? PC: Got kitted out. Did some tests. We had to fill out, yeah fill out all these books. Tests. I was about to decide what we would do. Test booklets. Fill in name and number. Answer all the questions you could. Such things as mathematics, simple science, English diagrams to determine which way cogs might revolve around levers and pulleys operated. Seemed to go on for hours and days by the end of it. Afterwards when discussing with others how they thought they had fared I began to realise that not all of us were as well equipped as others. In fact, the lad I travelled with from Poole had found the exercise very daunting. Then we were interviewed by, about technical matters school, blah blah blah. Issued with uniforms and equipment. Everything. Dog tags and whatever. When all this was going on the, an airman came and called out your name. Gather up your kit and follow him. My friend from Poole was amongst us. ‘Where are you going?’ I asked. ‘I’ve been selected for the RAF regiment.’ Soon our numbers were quite depleted. We slept soundly that night. CB: So, are you saying not everybody was accepted in to the RAF? PC: They were accepted into the RAF but not in what they wanted to do. CB: Right. PC: Like this chap that came with me was put in the RAF regiment. CB: Yes. So, what other jobs would they have put them into? PC: Well, there was cooks. CB: Yeah. PC: All sorts of things I think. Different. Different. I’m trying to think really. CB: But you’d been identified as somebody to work, you said earlier as a rigger. PC: Yeah. CB: Is that because you asked for that or they suggested that’s what you should do? PC: Well, no. What happens, you were sort of all lined up and said, I would say about sixty or so of us and those who wished to be air frame mechanics to cross to the other side of the room. Not a soul moved. Didn’t know what he was bloody talking about. CB: No. PC: ‘Right,’ he said, said to the group, he said, ‘All those on the left engines. Those on the right airframe.’ That’s how I became a flight mechanic air frame. CB: Right. PC: That’s it. CB: Was this chap a corporal or — PC: It was better actually than the engines. I thought so anyway. And we went from Cardington to Skegness for square bashing. CB: What else did you do at Skegness? PC: Just the initial training. Marching up and down. CB: Yeah. PC: Cracking the paving stones. CB: Yeah. PC: Then we were — CB: Was there any classroom work? It wasn’t square bashing all the time was it? PC: Square. Well, most of the times. Yeah. CB: And from there? PC: Didn’t have any rifles so we had wooden replica rifles. Bayonet practice with pikes. Scaffold tubing with the bayonets welded on. Bayonet practice we charged at straw filled sacks on wooden frames and around again. We were encouraged to scream and shout the meanest of obscenities as we charged forward. Urged on by the instructors. In, out, Oh God, out the ground, left, right, right, oh dear. Oh dear. Unarmed combat was taught. Be invited to charge the instructor with a rifle and bayonet, and we’d be tipped ass over head in no uncertain manner. How we would fare in real combat was never really put to the test. The assault courses, climb wire, barbed wire, rope netting. Crossing streams and, oh dear. Did guard duty. We’d sit on the seafront with a machine gun on the beach. Wend our way through the mines laid on the beach, ropes and tape. The odd mine was clearly visible in the sand so one was apprehensive when going backwards and forwards. The Butlins Holiday Camp was used by the Navy as a training establishment. Given the name HMS Arthur. The camp was full of Naval though we never seen any in the town. They must have kept them away. Perhaps the authorities in their infinite wisdom kept us apart. Many lectures on various aspects of service life. We had medical officer of the dangers of venereal diseases. This was my first introduction to sex education. For me it was a rude awakening. The MO marched on the stage in the lecture room and held up an unrolled French letter which he announced was a condom. In my ignorance I only knew it as the more familiar name. They were sold sureptisously in barber’s shops where male customers would be discreetly asked if they needed such things for the weekend. He ran to great length about syphilis, gonorrhoea, associated with women of a dubious character. If we did succumb to these wiles we’d be marching with a standing penis and no conscience. Returned to a room behind the guard room where prophylactic treatment was available. This lecture was reinforced by an American film of soldiers frequenting a brothel and the resulting liaison in full colour. Various venereal diseases in all its ghastly forms. Pretty shocking to my young senses. What kept most men on the straight and narrow was the exception that women were to be respected. The ultimate way was that the man would marry a virgin and young women accordingly kept themselves chaste. At home sex was never discussed. It was taboo. But nevertheless there were plenty of innuendoes bandied about between Babe, Benny and some of the lodgers. I was a little naive to appreciate what was going on. Films and books were played down as part of any stories so as not to offend the sensors. Songs adhered to a strict code of practice. Some comedians like Max Miller sailed pretty close to the wind. A popular song of the day was, “Doing What Comes Naturally.” And that was how people were introduced to sex. To suppress our sexual drive a cup of tea or cocoa we drank was laced with copious amounts of Bromide. Also we were kept so busy with square bashing and PT at the end of the day we were too exhausted for such dalliances. That coupled with our meagre pay did not leave us much for entertaining the opposite sex. As the course progressed so did our fitness. Jack London was training for his fight would delight in picking out likely lads to spar with him in the boxing ring. Fortunately, for me being I was slight build I was not selected for this ordeal. We could not avoid the forced marches that were his pet items. Be paraded in marching order with small pack. Gas mask we had to march at a fast pace for about ten miles or so. Periodically we’d be halted for a short rest but Jack would prance about shadow boxing while we looked on in awe. And off we’d go again at almost a gallop. After six weeks or so of this intensive square bashing we were deemed to be sufficiently proficient in parade ground techniques and arms drill, armed and unarmed bayonet, to be referred to the next place of our training. Come of some use in the overall strategy of the Air Force. And then off we went. Went to — CB: Where did you go next? PC: Went to a place called Brindley Heath near Birmingham. Just outside Birmingham. And we marched up to the camp known as Kit Bag Hill surrounded by an eight to ten foot high wire chain link. This was number school, number 6 School of Technical Training. It would be our home for the next five or six months. So that’s where I went. CB: So, at the Technical School this was specifically was it for the trade you were put into? PC: Yeah. Yeah. Number 6 School of Technical Training. CB: Yeah. PC: Very desolate. Looked rather gloomy after Skegness. I was accommodated in one of many of the wooden huts. In the centre was a coal burning stove. Iron beds that telescoped to give a spacious look to the room. On each bed was three square shaped mattresses called biscuits. Pillow. Three blankets all arranged in a precise manner which we would get accustomed to making before going on parade in the mornings. A corporal was in charge of the hut and the weekly inspections of the hut ensured was spotless before he allowed us to go to breakfast. Woe betide anyone who entered the hut after he’d pronounced it satisfactory. Not only were the trainees RAF personnel but there were the Fleet Air Arm, Polish and WAAFs which added a degree of rivalry to us all. Each morning we’d parade outside the hut at 7.30 am. Headed by the station band we would march to the workshop to the strains of, “Sussex by the Sea.” We would mutter as we marched along in the darkness, “Good old Sussex by the sea. You can tell them all we know sod all of Sussex by the sea.” How’s that? [laughs] CB: We’ll pause there for a mo. [recording paused] CB: So, the RAF called this site you’re talking about RAF Hednesford. PC: Yeah. CB: What did you actually do there? PC: That was the — CB: Brindley Heath. PC: Yeah. First two weeks dealt with basic engineering practice. I did on occasion metal, metals used in aircraft production. Types of drills, screws, tools, heat treatment, corrosion. Main practical work involved filing a piece of mild steel about three or four inches square, a quarter of an inch thick. Dead flat and square. Both faces and all surfaces. At the end marks were attained in the practical theory and oral examination we continued with the course. Otherwise we were re-mustered into probably the RAF regiment. Perish the thought. Anyone with ninety percent could go on to the fitter’s course. Those with marks forty or less would be re-mustered. Only one of our entry was. Which was a hundred and fifty eight passed with high enough marks and one failed. And he had the, as he had had office experience in Civvy Street he was posted to the admin section as a Clerk GD. We were rather derisory towards him but he had the last laugh because by the time we had completed the course he had been promoted to corporal. So he did well. None of us were concerned about going on the fitter’s course which meant another ten weeks of training and many were anxious to join a squadron and actually service aircraft. Once the basic training was over we got down to the serious business of the flight mechanic’s course. Sixteen weeks of instruction, preliminary rigging, knots, lacing of wire and rope. Fabrication, application, doping and painting, carpentry, hydraulics, pneumatic, wheels and tyre maintenance, marshalling of aircraft. Procedures for the daily inspection. At first I’d been disappointed in not being successful in being selected as an engine mechanic but once on the course I found it so varied and covered such a variety of activities I was glad. Later in life it stood me in good stead. Once we were, similar routine with our spare time spent in the NAAFI. Occasional visits to the camp cinema. One film I recall was the story of that guy who sold his soul to the devil. Was it a warning? Also got initiated in playing cards. Not Whist, Rummy and Cribbage that I was reasonable in but Brag, Pontoon and Solo. We did not have a lot of money to indulge in these games and after being relieved of my meagre pay by the card sharks among us I became more cautious about getting too involved. The only game officially sanctioned by the powers that be was Tombola or Housey Housey. Less stressful and you were unlikely to lose too much of your money. Weekends we’d venture in to town with Walsall being one of the favourite places. Many thought I came from Canada. Due to my West Country accent no doubt. So I would say I came from London, Ontario. I was intrigued by the accents of these Black Country people as they were known here. Hednesford itself was a mining village. We’d often visit the snooker hall and local pub. The younger miners a little hostile to us as many would have liked to have joined the Services from what was a Reserved Occupation from which there was no escape. Hence their frustrations. Shall I go on? CB: Yeah. PC: My best friend, Bob Matthews, a Londoner and I was a bit in awe of him because he was very streetwise while I was just a country boy who knew nothing of the big wide world. As I lived in Poole it was much too far for me to go home on a forty eight hour pass and I stayed with him with his parents in London. Fabulous. They lived in Woolwich and his father was security officer at the Royal Arsenal. They had a small cottage inside the Arsenal as part of the job. You would say that this was the safest place in London. Bob had a regular girlfriend. Sylvia, I believe. And he introduced me to her sister Vera. This made a convenient foursome for us. Also, Vera was my first really serious girl. We used to write copious letters to each other even when I was posted overseas. However, when I was abroad for a long separation of course there was a cool off a bit and she met up with another lad. When I came home in 1947 we did try to get together but I was very unsettled and did not know what I wanted to do so we drifted apart. Compared with Poole, Woolwich and London in general was a wonderland to me [pause] Pubs such as Dirty Dick’s were so different from those in Poole. We would meet Bob’s mother in one and she would proudly show off her pride and joy to her friends. Christmas I spent at the camp not wishing to go home as I wanted to enjoy service life to the full. I withdrew my name from the list of those wishing to go home to allow the married ones a better chance of selection. Periodically we used to do guard duty. This involved being on duty from 6pm until 8am the next day. One did stints of two hours on and four hours off and we usually slept in the guard room cells. Some did duty on the main gate and others patrolled the perimeter fence. The shifts 12 to 2am and 2 to 4am were in my opinion the worst. I remember on one occasion falling asleep in the sentry box and nearly falling over as I slept. God knows what would have happened if the orderly officer had come around. Tell that the circulated camp was that Naval Fleet Air Arm types who assisted their mates to enter the camp after the magic hour of 23.59 by fixing their bayonets to the rifles. Pushing them through the chain link fence to form a sort of ladder. Coming up this way one of the bayonets snapped off. What was the outcome I never did know or whether it was true. Completion of the course in February ’43 we attended a passing our parade, informed of our postings, given a travel warrant and sent home on a weeks’ well-earned leave. We had previously been asked where we’d like to be posted and I opted for Ibsley near Ringwood. A Spitfire fighter station. Whether they did this deliberately to post you as far from the location desired I don’t know but I was posted to 1651 Heavy Conversion Unit, Waterbeach in Cambridgeshire. CB: Right. We’ll stop this for a mo. [recording paused] CB: You mentioned the passing out parade from the end of your training. So how did that go? PC: Well, the square bashing do you mean? After doing the foot drill. CB: Yeah. PC: Yeah. What did that involve? CB: Yeah. When you’d finished your technical training you had your passing out parade. PC: Technical training. CB: Yeah. Before you were posted elsewhere. So what, what was the passing out parade? PC: I can’t remember really. I think we just had to march past the CO and eyes right and off you go. CB: Yes. And did they give you something in terms of certificate. Or — PC: No. No. CB: Families invited or anything like that? PC: No. No. No. No. CB: Right. And did you get a bean feast afterwards? PC: A bean feast? CB: A pub. Food. PC: No. No. You were sent home on leave. CB: Right. That was the reward [laughs] PC: Yeah. Yeah. CB: Yeah. PC: Yeah. CB: Ok. [recording paused] CB: So when you joined the RAF you were an AC2. How did the promotion go from there? PC: Well, the next stage was AC1. And then LAC. Leading Aircraftmen. I think nowadays they follow the Army and they call them corporals. CB: Well, I think they’ve still got LAC and SAC. PC: Yeah. Have they? CB: Senior Aircraftsman. So at what stage were you, did you become a Leading Aircraftsman? At the end of your technical training was it? PC: After I’d been on the Heavy Conversion Unit for a bit. CB: When you got on with it. Right. Ok. So you were posted to the Heavy Conversion Unit. That was at Waterbeach. So, what was your role there? PC: Just — CB: Because you are now technically what’s your description of your trade at that stage? PC: I’m a flight mechanic. CB: Right. PC: Flight mechanic air frame. Yeah. Arrived at the camp at about [pause] it was quite dark. Reported to the guard room. Soon allocated a billet. Guided to the dining for a much needed meal. Quite bewildered. At the same time thrilled to hear the roar of aircraft engines as the planes were taking off from the airfield. CB: What were the aircraft? PC: Stirlings. CB: Right. PC: The airfield was about four miles from Cambridge. Only built during the general rearmament programme of the late 1930s. Officially opened in 1941. Earmarked to be a heavy bomber station. When I arrived it was equipped with the Short Stirling four engine bomber. I was a little disappointed to find that the unit was not on operational one but involved with the final training of aircrews before going on to an operational squadron. Stirlings were given this role because the Lancaster and Halifax heavy bombers coming on stream were far superior in Bomber Command in bomb carrying capacity and ability to fly at high altitudes. Stirlings had been designed in 1936 but its projected wing span of a hundred and twelve feet had to be reduced to less than a hundred to be accommodated in the hangars. This would seriously affect its ability to fly any higher than about eighteen thousand feet and was therefore more vulnerable to anti-aircraft and fighter attack. Its robust construction based on the Sunderland ensured that it would withstand serious battle damage. It was used successfully as the main bomber along with the Wellington. But as night fighter operations improved these losses were unsustainable. Stirlings last big operational roles was when it was used as a paratroop carrier. And the towing of gliders during D-Day and at Arnhem. It was at Arnhem that my brother Jim was captured and spent the rest of the war in a prisoner of war camp. My first day on the flights when I was introduced to these huge monsters towering above me left me a little awestruck by its sheer size. This was certainly a big aeroplane standing about twenty feet high. Twenty eight feet high on its huge ungainly undercarriage. My job as a flight mechanic was to carry out daily inspections. Checking the tyres, tyre creep, leaks from the oleo struts, free working of the ailerons, rudders and elevators and inspect for damage generally. Checking the cockpit. The operational controls. The most frightening task for me was the cleaning of the cockpit windscreen and windows. This necessitated climbing out of an escape hatch midway along the fuselage, walking along to the cockpit and then lying down to clean the Perspex windows. At first I would crawl on my hands and knees up the fuselage much to the amusement of the old hands. After a few days I became as blasé about it as they were and would quickly clamber along the fuselage ignoring the height above the ground. Refuelling held its dangers too. The training of pilot and co-pilot to successfully take off and land at night and to get the rest of the crew to operate as an efficient unit. Night flying was the norm for this work and on its completion usually about two or three in the morning one of the jobs was to refuel the aircraft so that it was ready for immediate take off. The Stirling had fourteen tanks in the wings holding over two thousand two hundred gallons of fuel. On a cold winter’s night this was a gruelling task. To hold open the nozzle to allow the petrol to flow in to the tanks hands and fingers soon became numb with cold. Accentuated by the high octane fuel. I’d not been there long when my turn for night flying duties. This meant being, among other things being on standby on the flight hut to answer requests from the pilot for a supply of compressed air. In night flying operation the aircraft would be doing circuits and bumps continued throughout the night. The small engine driven pumps which fitted to the aircraft could not maintain enough compressed air in the [floor cylinder] to cope with the continual application of the aircraft air brakes. After a number of landings and take off a cylinder would need replenishing. My job was to meet the aircraft on the perimeter, top up as necessary. Rather than wait in the cold flight for a call out many of us would join the aircrews with a fully charged air cylinder and enjoy the thrills of night flying. Sans parachute I might add. When the top up cylinder was empty we would leave the aircraft. Turn to the flight and have to wait for the next call. At the end of the night flying the next task would be to meet the aircraft on the perimeter. Guide it to its dispersal point on the flight. On my first occasion the duty corporal took pity on me and told me he would delay my introduction to this task as long as possible. Whether he doubted my competence I know not. There was suddenly a flurry of activity and with the phone ringing continuously, airmen gathering up torches and disappearing into the night I found I was the only one apart from the corporal left in the hut. The phone rang and he reluctantly handed me two small torches and told me to guide G-George to its dispersal point with some brief warnings of the possible dangers. Out I ventured in the total darkness to meet this huge monster towering above me on the perimeter track. Along with my two torches waving them in the prescribed manner I gradually brought the aircraft with its roaring engines and red hot exhaust to its dispersal point. Now came the tricky bit where it was necessary to turn the aircraft in a complete circle on the frying pan to be ready for refuelling. One had to be careful to keep in full view of the pilot. Not to stumble or trip otherwise one might be run over by the tail wheels as the aircraft turned around in the tight space. With heart thumping and nerves frayed I managed this without a mishap. I’ve often wondered if the pilot ever thought how vulnerable the poor ground crews were when carrying out this type, this operation. Back in the flight hut I don’t know to this day who was more relieved. Me or the corporal. Periodically, as well as doing a guard duty on the main gate on the perimeter of the station we also had to do a kite guard. Kite being slang for an aeroplane. For this duty one would have a couple of blankets, go to a designated aircraft and spend a night guarding the aircraft. I cannot recall whether we were armed or not or how effective the guard was is debatable. Whenever I did this duty I would spend the time exploring the aircraft, playing the various roles of bomber crews. I imagined I would assume the duty of the pilot, co-pilot, flying over Germany and the North Sea to the target. When tiring of this I would then take on the role of the bomb aimer. Lie down in his position in the front at the front and guide the plane and drop the bombs. Other roles would be front, rear and mid-upper gunners. Sitting in their turrets and shooting down enemy fighters. Although I fantasised playing these roles I never felt I would be suitable as an aircraft member. Aircrew member. Partly as I did not consider my education, background good enough at the time. Aircrews were recruited from the universities and Grammar Schools and my basic elementary schooling was not good enough. As war progressed and a shortage of suitable candidates became apparent particularly for the flight engineers. I would probably have been acceptable. By this time I’d retrained as a fitter and was quite happy in that role. For sleeping there was a foldaway stretcher located in the fuselage but sleep was an uncomfortable experience, climbs in the aircraft on a cold winter’s night. And equally so on a hot summer’s night. At 6am in the morning loud banging on this aircraft would awaken one and you would stagger off to the dining hall for a cup of tea and an early breakfast. But the ordinary perk was the cooks were generally sympathetic and generous at that hour. I had not been at Waterbeach long when it came apparent getting around a camp site, a bicycle was required so I wrote home and asked my mother to send my bicycle to me. She did. Registered. And I was mobile. A cycle was as essential in those days as a car is today. Visits to Cambridge and the local villages was easily accomplished with the minimum of effort. This being the fen country it was very flat. Very few hills to negotiate. This part of the country was ideal for the location of bomber stations so that although heavy laden to take off safely. Cambridge was a beautiful city with its many fine buildings, colleges and the River Cam running through it and I spent much of my free time exploring its many features. Cambridge being a university with its teaming population of undergraduates I found it difficult in coming to terms with. I was brought up to the idea that one had to get out to work and earn a living as soon as possible. My mother did not encourage one in the value of education. In fact, by her intransigence she discouraged me from taking the entrance to the local Grammar School. At the time, 1943 Cambridge was full of American servicemen and I’m afraid us poor erks could not compete either financially for the favours of the local girls. We had to be content with the NAAFI, Toc H, Sally Ann, for entertainment. Plus the cinemas. I remember there was some trouble when some time expired servicemen returned from their tour of duty in North Africa and many confrontations occurred between the two factions. I found it more expedient to stick to the village and Waterbeach itself than get involved in any trouble. My father died in November ’43. Flight Sergeant Mills took me under his wing and helped me through the trauma and he often took me to the British Legion club in the village where he was a much respected and popular friend. As spring arrived the hours of daylight increased. The trainee aircrews were required to wear goggles with dark lenses in order that flying hours were maintained. The runways were illuminated with sodium lights to complete the illusion of night flying. This almost around the clock flying put quite a strain on the servicing ground crews. But with the increasing aircraft production losses of aircrews by enemy action it was necessary to maintain a flow. One day while working on the flights [unclear] came and said anyone would like to retrain as a fitter 2. This was an upgraded group 1 in trade structure in the RAF was highly regarded as it opened up the route to promotion. I asked when mine would be likely to be selected, know if to be selected and how that might be. He told me it would be several months before it would come about. Thinking to myself it would get me off the flights for the winter months I put my name forward. Rather than months, a couple of weeks later given a weeks’ leave and told to report to Number 1 School Of Technical Training at Halton to begin a fitter’s conversion course [pause] on the 2nd of July 1943. Number 1 School of Technical Training, RAF Station Halton. Halton was the home of the boy entrants in the RAF and affectionately known as Trenchard’s Brats. The terms of service was to fulfil twelve years of service from the age of eighteen when the option to sign on for a period if they so desired. The apprenticeship was four to five years duration and they seemed to be the cream of the tradesmen and indeed they were. The war was a Godsend to that force with the rapid expansion of the Air Force. Many were promoted to high ranking position both as officers and senior NCOs. So they did well. Volunteers and conscripts like myself after completing a flight mechanic’s course the period on the squadron required to do a conversion course of fourteen weeks to be brought up to the required standard. I think I was the youngest and certainly the lowest in rank at AC2, Aircraftman Second Class. Many were LACs, Leading Aircraftsmen with several years service to their credit. RAF Halton near Wendover in Buckinghamshire was situated uphill from the town. Every day we would form up on the square, march to the training workshops. The Brats would lead the parade with the mascot of a goat, a goat and the station band at the head. The Brats were distinguished by wearing cheese cutters. Peak cap, with a chequered brim on the edge whilst we wore the Glengarry type of head gear. One of our entry also wore a cheese cutter as he had had the devil’s own job to convince the RAF police that he was not a Brat. One night on the town he had been an aircrew member and lost all his hair as result of some trauma and had permission to wear the cap to avoid embarrassment. The course, like the flight mechanic’s was fairly intensive dealing with basic engineering, metal repairs, hydraulics, minor and major inspections. A lot of instruction involved American aircraft such as the Kitty Hawk, Tomahawk and the methods used in the servicing of these aircraft. Weekends we could not obtain a pass we were expected to take part in some sporting activity. The skivers among us would often choose the cross country run over the hills and through the woods down to Tring. At some convenient spot we would hide, enjoy a crafty smoke and wait for the main pack and rejoin them for the return to the camp. Those who declined to take part in any of these activities would find themselves detailed for spud bashing which involved the peeling and removing the eyes from the potatoes. Halton was conveniently placed near London. And weekends we could spend in the city. We used to stay in the YMCA hospital, hostel at Westminster. Therefore we’d be taken by bus to a section of the underground not used by the railway. Here three tiered bunks were provided at a shilling. 5p per night. You took pot luck as to who your fellow borders might be and hoped they would not be too drunk or awkward. Other times when I stayed in camp I would explore the local towns of Aylesbury, Rickmansworth, Tring etcetera. During wartime these were pretty boring places to be for a serviceman as with beer in short supply unless you were a regular you could not hope to get served in any pub. Whilst at Halton the forty third intake of Brats came to the end of their course. We were all given a forty eight pass and told to leave the camp or stay at our peril. When we returned to the camp we’d seen why we had been told to get out. The place was in a shambles. Beds and mattresses hanging from windows, forty free entry signs daubed on walls and general mayhem everywhere. Apparently it was a tradition that on the completion of a course the Brats were given a free hand to celebrate their final days at Halton. The new entry would have the job of cleaning up the ensuing mess. Which gave them the incentive that they could do better when they completed their course. However, when we finished the privilege [pause] however when we finished the privilege was not granted to us. I completed the conversion course and now fitter 2A still with the rank of AC2. This gave me an increase in pay and I was now in group one of the trade hierarchy of the Air Force. Sent home and then posted back to 1651 at Waterbeach. Other: A rest. CB: I think we’d better stop there. Thank you very much. [recording paused] CB: We’re taking a pause now because Bob’s getting a bit tired. We’ve got to the stage where he’s returned to Stradishall and there’s a lot more to be covered in the later part of the war and afterwards in the Far East. So we’re going to reconvene. Much of what he’s been speaking about he’s got directly from his own book, “Stirlings, Sentinels and Dakotas.” So, more later. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Percival Robert Court Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-12-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ACourtPR171211 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:57:38 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force British Army Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Buckinghamshire England--Staffordshire England--Lincolnshire England--Skegness England--London Netherlands Netherlands--Arnhem Description An account of the resource Percival Robert Court joined the Air Training Corps in March 1941, volunteering for the Royal Air Force at the earliest age of 17 and a half. Training at RAF Cardington, he became a flight mechanic. He then moved to RAF Skegness to continue formal training, including lectures on sex education and venereal disease. He states that sex was never discussed and that it was taboo and recalls rumours they were putting bromide in the water. Alongside this, he outlines several examples of social meetings within the base staff, including shared songs and daily prayers at RAF Hednesford, including the support of his wing commander when his father died in 1943 and how he helped him through the tough ordeal. He then recounts his training and experiences at RAF Hednesford, explaining the very high marks that were required to continue on his mechanic course, alongside having to take regular guard shifts and night operations. Percival was posted to Heavy Conversion Unit 1651 at RAF Waterbeach, and describes his daily required workings and several experiences with Stirlings and Lancasters. He also sets aside time to remember his brother, who was captured at Arnhem, being imprisoned for the remainder of the war. Based at RAF Halton, Percival took a course that allowed him to be promoted, with the addition of&nbsp;higher pay, learning information about American aircraft and spending his weekends in wartime London. When the war came to an end, he was given 48 hours to leave the base and no celebration. Percival Robert Court believes his mother saved his life by not letting him go to a grammar school, explaining that if she had, he would have died in an aircrew. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sam Harper-Coulson Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1941-03 1943 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription 1651 HCU civil defence dispersal faith fitter airframe flight mechanic ground crew ground personnel Heavy Conversion Unit Lancaster mechanics airframe perimeter track prisoner of war RAF Cardington RAF Halton RAF Hednesford RAF Waterbeach Stirling training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/803/10783/PdiPlacitoLH1701.1.jpg 89587cbda0f20671b0c4ea1b85001701 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/803/10783/AdiPlacitoLH170209.2.mp3 bb9d0b5a910e57882406f39298fe61e0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource di Placito, Lawrence Henry L H di Placito Description An account of the resource Two oral history interviews with Lawrence 'Lawrie' di Placito (1922, 1646268 Royal Air Force). He served in Air Sea Rescue. collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-03-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context diPlacito, LH Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre, the interviewee is Dav, the interviewer is David Meanwell, the interviewee is Laurie Placito. The interview is taking place at Mr Placito’s home in Line in Surrey on the 9th February 2017. Okay, Laurie so if we could start with you, your parents, where you were born and where you grew up. LP: Yes, I was born in Chertsey, Surrey 21st 1st 1922. [Ringing sounds] with six boys, three girls and two children already pre-deceased at the age of three and four. I was educated at the Stepgate school, council school, until the age of eleven, where I passed the scholarship for the grammar school, which was Stroves Grammar School, Egham. And from there I left Egham, Stroves in 1936. I took up employment at the post office as a sorting clerk and telegraphist, at the wages of twelve shillings and sixpence per week, of which one shilling and three pence was stopped for unemployment benefit. War came, before the war came in 1939, I joined the sixth battalion of the Surrey Territorial Regiment, with the headquarters in Chertsey, Drillhall Road, Chertsey, which consisted then of two or three times a week marching up and down the roads, drilling and such like. This brought us up to the summer of 1939, before the war had started. I was called in to the office to say that I wouldn’t being going to the summer camp with the rest of the lads, because of my Italian parentage, I therefore, I was sort of thrown out of the Territorial Army. Now this clashed with my position at the Post Office because I was, at the Post Office I signed the Official Secrets Acts; the Postmaster told me, he said they can’t really do that he said, but things what they were, so I just had to accept it. Now in, war started September the 3rd 1939. I saw all my old friends go off before into the summer camp. They had about three weeks summer camp training. At the end of the training war broke out and these lads were shipped out to various places, with the barest of minimum of training, not firing a rifle in, in, anger or shooting, just all theory really. I therefore then, I left the post office and I was employed at a boatyard, building naval vessels in, on the Thames in Chertsey, where I was friendly, very friendly with another young lad. Now we’d talked about this air sea rescue business what we’d heard about, so we both decided to join. We went to Acton town hall to join the RAF Air Sea Rescue. We were called into separate rooms, but before this I didn’t have much knowledge of sea going, but David, my friend, he knew all about the sea and the points of the compass and such like and he genned me up on questions. So eventually we were called into two separate rooms. I was questioned concerning my knowledge of the sea but I explained I didn’t know much but anyway at the end of the day, I was accepted. You know, David came out of his room said how did you get on? He said they won’t accept me he said, because I am a trainee boat builder and I was only a labourer really, so that put paid to that friendship [laugh]. Going back previously to this, to early ’39, I was only seventeen, I went to Surbiton town hall near Kingston, was a recruiting office and I applied to join the Royal Scots Greys Cavalry Regiment, because I was so full of horses. Now the recruiting sergeant told me, he said for one thing you’re too young, you’re not seventeen and a half, he and another reason he said, forget about the horses he said you’ll never see a horse on active service. Well that, this was all previous to me joining up at the town hall. So, I waited quite some time for my application to come through before I was called up, and from there I received me travel warrant, to travel to Cardington in Bedford. Now Cardington was a pre-war airship station, and the airship mast was still in place where the, all the different airships used to moor. At Cardington I was issued with kit, which consisted of uniform, boots, shirts, etc. It was a bit of a hit and miss affair because you lined up in front of a counter and a fellow looked at you and said I think you’re about a size and threw you a coat or jacket hoping it would fit. Anyway, that soon sorted out. We was only there a very short time to draw kit, from there I was posted to Great Yarmouth, RAF Great Yarmouth to do basic military training. Now this consisted of marching up and down the, the roads, rifle drill, shooting, bayonet, with the bayonet with the dummy, you had to charge at the dummy with the bayonet. Now what that meant for me being an air sea rescuer [chuckle] I never, would never know., This was a very, quite basic training, but it consisted of assault courses, as I say, rifle shooting, the Sten gun what had just come into operation, using the Sten gun. Sitting in an enclosed room without your gas mask, when a gas was turned on you had to find your way, to get your gas mask on before the gas got too much for you, which obviously you had somebody standing by. We were there for about two, Great Yarmouth, we were there Great Yarmouth for about two, two months, marching up and down the roads. One particular thing I always remember was our drill corporal was a Yorkshireman, a Corporal Harrison. And on every march you had to sing On Ilkley Moor Bar Tat, I knew every word of Ilkley Moor Bar Tat. Anyway that came to an end and we travelled well at once to go to Tayport, on the Scottish Coast. Now Tayport, well obviously it was a port, but it was also home to RAF Leuchars It was an Australian squadron at Leuchars, mostly Australian squadron, but we were there just doing menial work ‘cause it wasn’t a training station for air sea rescue it was just a pit stop, so my day was employed either helping in the hangars, or we had a very zealous CO with his garden. That garden had to be kept up, it was pristine, there was even stones had to be painted white, all round the garden. What’s more, he had a dog, and this dog was obviously come and dig up where you had to. This lasted for a few weeks and for the first two or three weeks I was stationed, rather I was in barracks with the Aussie squadron, And all day long every time someone would come in it would play – what’s that Australian song? [Other]: Waltzing Matilda. LP: Yes, Waltzing Matilda, that would be on all day every day, Waltzing Matilda. Well eventually I came out of that, back into the English section of the RAF and from there, oh I had this thing of joining to be a flight, a flying airman, so I went into the office where you remuster, that’s where you changed your trade. Now I spoke to the recruiting I suppose he was an officer, I’m sure. I explained what I wanted to do. He said ‘Whatever for?’ Well I said I think I was just getting a bit fed up of waiting around for this air sea rescue. So I applied to be a wireless operator air gunner. His reply was ‘I’ll give you a bit of advice boy’, he said ‘Only birds and fools fly.’ Now I thought that wasn’t a very nice thing, because he’s sitting in an office all day long, with those poor fliers night after night out flying, doing a terrible job. Well, anyway, within the space of another couple of weeks I was posted and I didn’t hear any more of that application. So from Great Yarmouth I went up to Tayport, that’s how I got to Tayport. As I say I was at Tayport for a bit, killing time actually. And then we got posted to RAF Corsewall, Corsewall Point, that’s on the other side of Scotland. That’s at the head of Loch Ryan at the head which led down to Stranraer, the waters at Stranraer. Now here we commenced our training, our air sea rescue training proper. It was a very, very, what shall I say very complex because it covered so many subjects., We had to study for instance buoys, buoys how they was attached to lines underwater to a mooring called a mooring trot, how to scull a boat, a small rowing boat with one oar, navigation, morse code and semaphore flags. The morse code was, was [chuckle] was a bit of a laughable situation because you’d be paired off and you had to send, one would be sending, one would be receiving morse code course there was many rude messages sent from one airman to another! Also aircraft recognition you would be thrown cards and you, you had to say straight away, English bomber, English fighter, German bomber, German fighter such like, and also from school work you were given a books and pens and you had to write notes and notes down of rules of the sea, the meaning of flags and such like. And then there was the practical training where we were taken down to the waters edge to the port and it would be put on different vessels and you would practice how to work a boat. These were called sea plane tenders, there was a, an old hulk moored, moored out at sea and you had to come alongside. The coxswain would shout out ‘come along port side to or starboard side to,’ and you had to turn your boat round to starboard of course there was lots of times there was lots of crashes [chuckle] ‘cause not many boys were able to control boats like that. As I say it was very thorough, thorough training. It, although it was an uncomfortable billet. The billets were nissen huts scattered about in the woods. And for the washing facilities were very basic, you had wash tubs, but for the toilets consisted of, of a row each side just with sacking in between each person so you could have a conversation with the follow sitting opposite on the other side of you, and I’m saying when I said it was basic, it was basic. At the end of the, at the end of the, at the end of the huts, nissen huts there was a big container of a blue liquid. [Turns away] What’s that liquid, erm, [Other]: I can’t remember. LP: Perm, permanganate of potash, [Other]: Yes. LP: Every man had to gargle with it, permanganate, and if you didn’t and you went sick with a sore throat you were in trouble, you were on charge, as I say it was very basic the conditions. The nissen huts were equipped with a paraffin stove in the middle of the hut. Now you were issued with a ration of paraffin and that had to last you so much, so many days, or day or whatever it was. If you used it up that was your fault, but you’ve got to remember we’d be out at sea, or on the boats rather, you’d be wet and cold, so that paraffin did always last. Now another situation was you had to do guard duties, now the guard duties consisted of dotted around this camp, in the woods, sentry huts, well, just stands really, just a metal stand, you would do I think it was either two hours on or four hours off, or vice versa. This was after you’d done your days’ work at the training. Now, one of, one of the duties of the guard, night guard, was called a rover patrol, he would as the word say, he would wander round the camp just looking at different places keeping an eye. I’d have an old Lee Enfield rifle, First World War issue, with five rounds of ammunition. Now if you come across a German I don’t know what would happen [chuckle]. One amusing, well I don’t think it was amusing really, on my amble round the roving patrol I came across a big bowser, a big tanker, which I thought contained paraffin, I thought well this is lovely [laugh]. Now, I searched around to find a container, luckily I found this container, put it under the bowser, turned the bowser on but instead of paraffin it was all effluent, effluent that came out [laugh]. So I was in a bit of a state, the rest of the, that was cleaning me uniform. Food, I suppose for RAF food wasn’t bad you just had to line up and you were served by a WAAF, RA WAAF girls. But you held out, you had a mess tin, knife, fork and spoon and tin mug. You’d hold your mess tin in front of the WAAF and she would dish whatever was up – plonk. Well, the food wasn’t all that great, but another incident, rather amusing. The officer would come round. A shout would go up ‘Orderly Officer, any complaints?’ But the Orderly Officer would come round accompanied by an NCO, ‘Anybody any complaints?’ Well, one brave soul shouted out ‘Yes sir, I’ve got a caterpillar on my plate.’ The officer walked over, this is true, he walked over to the boy, he said ‘There sir, it’s a caterpillar.’ ‘Hmmm,’ he said, ‘just push it off’ he said, ‘with your spoon.’ ‘Well, I wasn’t going to eat it sir.’ So that was another happy episode. Previous to this I forgot to mention, when I was at Great Yarmouth there was one particular airman, late in the afternoon he would go up to the NCO in charge, say a few words to him and off he would go, well we had to continue till the end of the day. So I said to this boy, after a couple of visits I saw him. I said what do you say? What gets you to come home so early? ‘Well, I’m in the boxing club.’ So I was always interested in boxing as a youngster so I said ‘Can I join?’ he said we’d be only too glad to have you. So I joined the boxing club there which was an asset really, I boxed and a couple of times at Great Yarmouth amongst the RAF. Well also, now also, back up to Tayport, not Tayport Corsewall Point, Corsewall, there was a boxing section there. And the fellow in charge was a guy who was an athlete, a pre-war was a runner, he wasn’t a boxer, a runner oh can’t remember his name. We used to have running, training before going on duty so I joined the boxing club there. Now, I did very well there really, because I’m not praising myself, but every Sunday we had what’s called a uniform parade. We had two uniforms, there was the best blue. Now on this best blue parade, everybody was lined up on a Sunday morning had a full inspection, the flag would be hoisted, the CO of the whole section would come round and inspect each man, so he gets to me, the Orderly Officer who was with him taps me on the shoulder and says you stay there you and I thought ‘Now what’ve I done?’. And so when the parade was dismissed and everyone went, the CO and officers came up and congratulated me ‘cause I’d boxed the night before apparently and I won my two bouts. I always remember one because it was an officer and I anyway that was the end of that but also stationed there was, I don’t suppose you’ve ever heard of him, a Steve Donahue, now he was a champion jockey of England, Steve Donahue, like our Lester Piggott today. Well his son was Pat Donahue, now Pat Donahue was an officer, first of all he was just a NCO but the second time I visited he was an officer and he was a very good boxer. Pat, Pat Donahue, a very good boxer and I was very friendly with Pat although it didn’t do him any favours but was just the fact that we became good friends what with him being an officer and me being NCO, just a private. What more can I say about that? Oh, another amusing incident, on a Sunday as I say, you had the day off. They used to run the transport buses into Stranraer, which was quite a bus ride away and there were no such thing as seats and you was just clinging on, hanging on as best you could. I was hanging on at the back of the bus, and the fellow next to me, he said ‘Where do you come from?’ I said ‘Oh, you probably wouldn’t know, a place called Chertsey, in Surrey,’ and he laughed, he said he lived at Everstone. Now he turned out, he was Worts w-o-r-t-s funeral directors and Harry Wort was a funeral director, well there again there was another strange quirk because when we finally moved from Corsewall Point to various stations Harry moved off and I didn’t see Harry again till he arrived a year later when he turned up at Newhaven, he’d spent what they called the white man’s grave, the Gold Coast in Africa. Well, I don’t know quite how long we were at Corsewall Point because, it was a very long, as I say, it was, covered a lot of work, classroom work, practical work, seamanship and such like but eventually I passed out from the giddy heights of AC2 to aircraftsman first class with a rise in pay. [Laugh] I’ve got my figures actually what rise in pay. Shall I get those figures now? Well, my rise in pay, my pay in 1942 that was three shillings per day. And out of that three shillings, I made an allotment to my mother of one shilling and sixpence per day, so that was ten shillings and sixpence per week. And this was for twenty four hours a day service. [chuckle] But then in March 43 I was a AC1, I was getting four and ninepence per day and I was still one shilling and sixpence to my mother. August the 1st 1943 I was receiving five shillings and threepence and still making the allowance of one and sixpence to me mother and I think it was not until 44 that I was getting six shillings per day [papers shuffling]. But I had, had a very good family. My sister used to regularly send me money, so really I wasn’t too bad. I did not smoke, when I say I used to drink, it was, you couldn’t afford to drink a lot anyway. Now [pause, shuffling of papers] Can I go back to my days at Great Yarmouth? DM: Oh yes, yes. [Other]: [ Cough] LP: Yes, during my days at Great Yarmouth, the raw recruit, you obviously jumped to any order that you were given. Now, the second day I was there, the corporal in charge tapped me on the shoulder ‘Haircut Hughes!’’ I said, ‘Corporal,’ I said, ‘I had a haircut yesterday.’ He said ‘You’ll have another one today.’ So everybody tapped on the shoulder had to have a haircut. Now after you had your hair cut, you had to give the barber a sixpence, so he must have done very well out of – him and cohorts. And also at Yarmouth I think it must have been a big college because it was a big open room with showers, no shower enclosures, just open showers. You had to have a shower today – another sixpence. So that was quite a lump out of my, those must have made good living the barber and the shower man. And also I must, [shuffle of papers] injection time. Now it would be a column of men you had to bare one shirt sleeve, go past a so called medical orderly for an injection. There was no just holding your arm, just walk by one big stab. No change the needle. Next one up, another big stab. And I see grown men what I don’t know if it was fright or nerves just collapse on the ground. DM: Can you remember when you started actually active service? When you’d finished your training. 43 or 42 LP: It was the beginning of 43. January 43, yeah. Now, I’ll come to that now. I was posted from Coreswell Point, Scotland to Gosport, Portsmouth. I was only there a very short time and this consisted of we were based on Stokes Bay, part of Portsmouth Waters, Southampton Waters, it was a testing ground for torpedoes. At the end of a long runway, a seaway, was an old hulk, bored, the aircraft would come down, drop the torpedo obviously aiming for the hull. And our job was to patrol up and down retrieve the torpedoes and so forth. Well that lasted only could have only been there only a few weeks. From there I got a posting to Newhaven. Now Newhaven was a very busy station. And it was there that the actual air sea rescue began. I was, I was told to find a billet in the town, Newhaven town, because the actual nissen huts were full and the, a certain number of airmen were billeted with families in houses. Well I was stationed with billeted with a Mrs Cook, her husband was away on war work, she had two children and an old grandmother, but she did look after me. She used to obviously get a ration allowance for food. As I say, from there I was taken straight on to high speed launch 190. Now it took quite a bit of get used to because you were mucking in with old hands really and I was a newcomer, but I got quite capable. My first job was a gunner. The gunner at this time there was a stand outside each a stand either side of the wheelhouse with a Vickers drum fed machine gun. Now my job was to hang on to that machine gun. Don’t forget the boat is not just cruising up and down its moving. But, as I say it was, it was a drum-fed machine gun but these didn’t last very long as it wasn’t so long after the guns were taken off of that and then we had a for’ard gun, revolving turret with twin browning machine guns, that was my next job I was a Browning machine gunner front turret. The turrets, the armament on the boat as I say they disbanded these two shields machine guns. There was a front turret, a rear turret, and then they decided to put a twenty millimetre Oerliken canon right at the stern of the boat. Well that did slow us down a little bit, the cannon. For there I was the gunner, that was my job, I had to be in the gun turret, and it was only after that I took my second class coxwain’s course, I was called in one day, the CO said I think you should take a coxwain’s course. From there I had been at Newhaven, I don’t know, five six months, I was sent up to back up to Corsewell Point for another bout of training as a coxswain. Well I passed that out, that meant a, that meant a rise in pay and also a jump in rank from leading aircraftsman to corporal. By this time I was quite, what shall I say, well quite at home on the boat: I knew what to do and what not to do. And my job was to be in the wheelhouse. There was a first class coxswain, the skipper and the second class coxswain in the wheelhouse. And you took it in turns to coxswain the boat. DM: How many of you were there on the boat? LP: Well on the boat, the boat consisted of the skipper, obviously an officer, a flight sergeant first class coxswain, a second class coxswain, a wireless operator, a medical orderly, two engineers, and two more gunners. Roughly, sometimes you’d have eight of you, sometimes there’d be ten of you. Now, the day consisted of hours and hours of searching, we had, the first boat that was always called the first boat, on first degree, that was usually, the rendezvous thirty miles south of Beachy Head, that was the usual one for the first boat, you’d be on station if you were the first boat you’d be on station, at six o’clock you’d be on station if not near that you’d be on your rendezvous. Now when you were on your rendezvous, patrol up and down just waiting orders really, it could be a long, long long day. But suddenly you’d get a crash call now this was taken by the wireless operator and ours was a very good one named Norman and a good wireless operator too. If he didn’t have his helmet on, Norman he would have it by his side. Now he could pick up our particular call we were a seagull, seagull something, I forget my number but we were seagull something. As soon as Norman heard that, he’d get the signal and that came from the Navy. Now although we were RAF Coastal Command, we were directly under the command of the Navy when it come to positioning. So you would take the course of that call and go up and down, up and down and what you would do call a square search, you would do a certain distance, a mile, one way, turn starboard right then back again so you were doing a search square all the way to where it had been reported – a crash. And you would report search and search and whatever you did your search. Now sometimes you’d be there all day log and do nothing but another time you’d be flying here there and everywhere. On one particular, one particular search, I’ve got it written down here somewhere, we had a crash call I was a gunner at the time and I was still in the front turret. This was in my early days. We were patrolling along and suddenly this spitfire came overhead. I didn’t know it was a spitfire at the time, fired his machine guns in front of us. At first thought I thought it would be a German, he turned round, turned round again and then I could see it was a spitfire, and he took us right up to this pilot sitting in his dinghy, which was a good save, we saved him. Now on that journey, the turret and I’m not exaggerating or making it up, a mine floated past and I could have stretched out and touched it. But there’s nothing I could do about it. It wasn’t the first mine I’d see, they was quite frequent. Quite often you would see a mine broken free of its moorings floating. Now we used to have to report the Navy and the navy would send out a vessel and destroy it. But that was very handy when they would explode the mine you’d get buckets and buckets of dead fish, or stunned fish and it was just a case of scooping the fish up. Although when I was in a private billet I used to have, the landlady used to supply my rations, but the rest of the crew, or those who weren’t in private, they would draw rations for the day and we would have what they call a galley which consisted of a methylated spirit stove and you would do your cooking, but the fact that I wasn’t part of it didn’t make any difference really, you was just part of mucked in together. Clothing, clothing we were well-equipped. We had duffle coats which no other RAF had, proper rain coats, rain macs, we had sea boots, jack boots, just slippers for ordinary time on the boat when you were in harbour and also our CO he was Squadron Leader John D. Syme, a very, what shall I say, a man’s man. His main concern was the welfare of the boats crews. Now all of the boats crew and the probably the base crews as well, we had sheets to sleep in, not just a blanket because the ordinary issue was blankets, two blankets, but John D. always made sure we had sheets, clean sheets. On board, when you slept on board if you were on duty at night, then you would sleep in a sleeping bag, and you had fold down bunks. DM: Would you be at sea? LP: I’m sorry? DM: Would you be at sea when you were sleeping? LP: Yes. You would, there was no regulation you would be at sea eight hours, ten hours and then come home. It didn’t work like that. You went out until you were called. You just couldn’t say well it’s time to come home, you just did as you were called. As I say, I’ve got a record of it here where you’d be out. You’d do a crash call and that would take a day and then you’d still have to go out. So the hours was long. Also, another thing, it was, it was the only base in the whole of the RAF Air Sea Rescue that received a rum ration, going back to the old days. Once you’d been at sea so many hours, you were entitled to the skipper’s, to the skipper’s, to the skipper’s thoughts it was time for a rum and everybody had a rum ration. And if you stayed out longer and longer you still had another rum ration. But that was entirely up to the skipper. DM: Did you ever get attacked? Did you ever get attacked? LP: No. We were always told you must never open fire on anything unless you were attacked first. We lost a couple of boats on the, what they call it, the early landing, where it was a failure? DM: What was that Dieppe? LP: Dieppe, yes. We did lose a couple of boats, I wasn’t at Newhaven at the time, but we did lose a couple of boats there. Two or three got killed. When DD come here around we had armour plating put on top of the wheelhouse. And on the part of the fore deck was armour plated and you had a big five white star painted on the fore deck for aircraft recognition as an allied sign. Now I’ve got somewhere I picked up Germans, shall I tell you about? DM: Yes, that would be very interesting. LP: Right. [Other]: Doc here ten past one in the morning. LP: Yeah, ten past one in the morning, crash call to position 360 degrees Hove two and a half miles, search the area till hours when message received to return to harbour. After seen in dinghy airmen picked up German wireless operator from a JU88. We searched the area for the remainder without result. Returned to Newhaven, and prisoner handed over to Naval authorities at 0705 hours. [Other]: No further incident 1400 hours. LP: Then 1400 hours we searched till quarter to five, 1745 hours. Now going back to that German, DM: Yes. LP: Now going back to that German. This was early hours of the morning and we picked him up with a searchlight. Previous to that there’d been an air raid over Newhaven, the district. The funny part of it was. We kind of felt it was we picked, he’s sitting in the dinghy, he’s got a very pistol in his hand. We said ‘Are you all right? Are you all right?’ friend, no answer, he didn’t answer. And it took several minutes to realise he wasn’t British or Allies, he was a German. Part about it was on this particular journey the engineer was a Belgian. His name was Albert, They called him Albert. Now Albert wasn’t a regular on the boat, it was a one-off. Now Albert, was forced to leave Belgium in the German invasion. Albert hated [musical sound] DM: Yes. LP: Albert hated Germans he realised it was a German he was for throwing him back in! Well, it took a bit of persuading, but another interesting thing was, I kept his very pistol, the Nazi very pistol and had a whistle attached, and part of his parachute we divided up, silk parachute. I had quite a nice piece of silk parachute which I gave my sister for her baby girl at the time wasn’t it. It made her christening gown. I think the skipper had his boots, I think the skipper had his boots. Anyway we took him back to harbour. Oh, we clothed him, we had dry clothing, gave him dry clothing, we took him back to harbour and then it was quite a way from the water’s level to the harbour wall – which was up a steep. Somebody had the bright idea of blindfolding him. Well he put the blindfold on and he was absolutely shivering. He thought we were going to shoot him. Anyway we got him up on board and got him to naval and it was a couple of weeks later that a complaint came through that somebody had taken his fur lined sea boots, flying boots and I kept that very pistol and the whistle for not, four, five, years back. [Other]: Four, five years. LP: Years, then I gave it to somewhere in Newhaven. [Other]: Museum. LP: Newhaven. [Other]: Museum. LP: Yes, museum at Newhaven. Anyway to pick somebody up early hours of the morning just with a searchlight, he was lucky, wasn’t he? DM: He was. LP: Another. Which one’s this one? [Other]: The Walrus, where you rescued the men from the Walrus. LP: Not the one off the French coast was it? [Other]: Don’t think so, no. LP: This is another. This made the headlines in the paper this rescue. [shuffling of paper] That’s the original but, DM: That one: ‘Six RAF men saved in the battle of the Seine’? [Other]: That one. DM: Six men saved from the wreck of a Wellington bomber, so that was you, you rescued those men? LP: Well, it’s strange really, I won’t go into all the details of how we got there. DM: Well you can do. LP: Can I? DM: Yeah. LP: Well, shall I read off that? [Other]: Hmmm LP: If I read it off that, I can’t read it. [Pause] There’s a lot to read isn’t it. [Other] You dropped the lifeboat. DM: Which bit are we talking about? So they obviously came down over the other side of the Channel, the French side of the channel. LP: The mouth of the Seine. DM: Right. So why were you, were you sent there or were you already there? LP: No, no we were on patrol in the channel when we got a call, so we had to break off from where we were to go there. Now, two RAF launches took place. DM: When was this, do you know? Oh yes, July 17th 1943. LP: Yes. Two launches were sent there. Now I was on 190 and after you see all the air, fighting going on we found that airmen, six airmen, were in an airborne lifeboat, it was one of the first that had ever been dropped. They climbed out of their dinghy into this airborne lifeboat. Now I think the other boat was 177, 190 177. 190, we reached the crew first. Now our coxswain, the first class coxswain, Bert Underwood, a very good coxswain, in his anxiety, he came along a little bit too fast for the crew. We threw ‘em a heaving line, we were going a little bit fast for them to hold onto the line, consequently we passed. 177 behind us, they picked the crew up. Strange part was, they picked the crew up, turned round and gone straight back to Newhaven. Now we were left out there, off the French coast [laugh] with this lifeboat. First of all, orders came ‘Sink the lifeboat, return to base’. So on board we had a tool chest consisting of axe and various tools these were passed along. At the last moment a message came up again, ‘Return to Newhaven with lifeboat.’ So that meant towing, so consequently, we had to put the tow line on the lifeboat and tow it back to Newhaven which took ages, ages. I don’t know what time we got back, I never know what time we got back, but that was a good rescue that. DM: Did you rescue any other bomber crews during? LP: Yes, yes. That another one? Routine patrol in the channel, a fine day, round about mid-day skipper said it’s about time we had something to eat, so we were preparing something to eat, when looking up at the sky, we saw a US American fighter bomber a P38 I think it was, a twin-fuselage. That disappeared and then we saw a parachute gently floating out. We followed him, where the parachute was going to land, and it turned out that when he had pulled his cockpit cover he’d dislocated his arm. He was floating in the water, unable to save himself. We were alongside in minutes. One or two of the crew jumped overboard, held him up while we got alongside him, and picked him up and took him back to base. I’ve got a letter from his CO, this letter is dated 29th of March 1944. Dear Sir, The excellent work of the members in your command when they rescued First Lieutenant T.G. Giles, United States Army, from the waters of the English Channel on the 16th March 1944 cannot be allowed to pass without an expression of appreciation. It is my very great pleasure to send you this letter of commendation for bringing about an operation with such happy and favourable results in the case of an officer of my command. Lt. Giles was forced to bail out of his plane while returning from an operational mission over occupied enemy territory. In so doing he sustained severe injuries. His condition was such that he was practically helpless when he reached the water. He was not able to find his dinghy and he would not have been able to get into it if he had and he was not even able to inflate his Mae West. It is fortunate indeed that launch 190 commanded by Craig as was brought alongside without delay. This pilot could not have survived any length of time in the sea on his own. The prompt and sure action of the ASR personnel in this instance merits the highest praise. The courageous action of the men who when over the side to render assistance is most noteworthy. I am fully aware that this rescue is not an isolated incident, but one of a number of superb accomplishments on your parts that have saved many ditched airmen, both British and American, under catastrophic circumstances, but one cannot disregard that if it were not for the immediate aid given so skilfully and successfully, and I am sure that Lieutenant Charles would not be alive today. The sentiment of the whole of this organisation when I express that thanks of a job well down. The crew of the HS190 was the Skipper, Flying Officer Craig, Flight Sergeant, first coxswain, Sergeant Placito, second coxswain, leading aircraftsman Fiddler fitter, LAC Hayes Leading aircraftsman Leading Aircraftsman Hyde crew. That was a good rescue that one. [Other]: It was. LP: There’s so many more [chuckle]. [Other]: Still there’s a sad one. LP: How about or bore you too much, if you left me that, well there’s not much attached to that one, not so far off the French coast there were German floating stations which consisted of a bed, provisions for downed airmen. And on a couple of occasions we came across these stations but fortunately or unfortunately there were no airmen alive in it. We just inspected them, took note of what was there and left. DM: Do you have any stories around D-Day? What happened on D-Day with your group? LP: Well on D-Day it was quiet actually, our D-Day was very quiet. Our boats weren’t considered deep sea going; they were built for speed. Pictures of them where they came out. I’ve got no big thing about D-Day. We went out early, picked up odd, odd bits of floating material rafts and such like but no actual rescues. D-Day was a quiet day considering the other days you would be there all day and all night. DM: You were talking earlier about a rescue involving a walrus. LP: Yes, DM: Okay so this is where you picked up a civilian body. LP: 0710 routine patrol over Beachy Head. Crash call to position search direct by Beachy Head Beachy Head Station, that would be the station at Beachy Head. DM: Coastguard, or maybe coastguard? LP: Coastguard, that’s the word. We carried out in company with a Walrus and sir sea rescue aircraft at 1445 received another call to position. On position at 15:15 hours quantity of wreckage found at 1600 hours we sighted a body of a civilian [Other]: Civilian. LP: Position 5 degrees off Newhaven seven miles delivered body to police. Returned to patrol until 2115 hours. [shuffle papers] Yes, we picked that poor boy up, that civilian bather. What wasn’t nice, the skipper wasn’t pleased to take him on board, no he thought about either sinking the body or, but he was told, yes, that was sad that. DM: Take you on now to the end of the war. What happened when hostilities ceased? LP: Yes, just let me et me thoughts. Yeah, I finished the war off as a transport driver actually. DM: How did that happen? LP: The Japanese war finished in [Other]: August. LP: August. Okay then yeah. When peace, okay then, when peace was signed with Germany in May, it meant that there was no longer essential for so many routine patrols to take place owing to the fact that it was just friendly aircraft. When peace was signed completely with Japanese surrender, the station the RAF station I don’t know what to try and say. DM: You were still at Newhaven? LP: Yes, still at Newhaven. I know what, the end of the German surrender the Japanese war was still in. It was decided to send boat to the Far East. The boats that were chosen to go were copper plated hull that is the hill was plated with copper plate to stop borings from sea insects. 190 although I wasn’t aboard at this time, 190 got as far as Gibraltar when it was halted and that the operation to go to the Far East was aborted, was no longer necessary, The reason I was no longer on board at this time I failed a medical exam and you had to be A1 to be a boats crew. So I was taken off HSL 190 and given a shore job. I was lucky enough to be made a transport driver. We had a Bedford vehicle used to run messages to Thorley Island and into Brighton. This was a very good job because it was so easy going. The reason I got the job was an old friend of mine who was on 190 was a transport driver his job was to drive the warrant officer his name was Stevens a nice gentlemanly man, Steves, Stevenson, he was to take him where he wanted to do to go. Bill Stoneman used to frighten the life out of him wherever he drove. He wasn’t a driver he relied on somebody else to drive or whether Bill did di deliberately or not I don’t know but he fell out of favour with the WO I was called into the office by a friend of mine, Don Stovey, who was a clerk and said that Warrant Officer Stevenson wanted a new driver, a different driver would I take the job. Of course I jumped at it. So from there on I was the station driver. The strange part about it was, I was the only one knew where the vehicle was kept. It was kept in a side street in Newhaven in the town. So consequently we used it on many occasions at night for our trips into Brighton, [chuckle] but I think this soon came to an end when I think it was spotted by another, a Marines, not a Marines, a motorcraft, I beg your pardon a motorised section of the RAF in Newhaven at the time and I think it was one of their vehicles that was mistaken for us and anyway from then on the vehicle had to be kept outside the officers mess on the harbour. Yeah. DM: So you finished your time in the RAF as a driver. LP: I finished sa a driver, yeah. DM: Can you remember when you were demobbed? LP: I’m sorry? DM: Can you remember when you were demobbed? LP: I got demobbed in 1946 I don’t know, middle of 46, something like that, I was demobbed, yeah. DM: Did you go back to the post office or LP: No I didn’t I no, I didn’t I just worked for me brother-in-law driving and one thing an another. But it was such a funny thing feeling you know being under orders twenty four hours a day. I forgot to say, that when it got near D-day time, all the civilian billets were closed and where we used to have single beds in the, in the nissen huts they were all double bunked so, to get all, so all the boys were on call. Yeah, it was a good job driving because quite often they, the officer would go into Brighton to pick up papers and also the rations were picked up in Brighton at the, one of the big hotels I think it was the Metropole or the Grand Hotel which was run by RAF, yes, it was the Australians had taken over. Which was the hotel that was bombed? Was that the Metropole? DM: That was the Metropole. LP: Was it? Yeah. [Other]: I think it was. LP: Yeah, I think it was the Metropole yeah, well the Australians were living there they had taken it over, and that was also then, I used to have to go in for a clothing exchange because what usually happened, well it always happened, if you had something worn, your clothing were worn and you thought need a change we had a storeman at Newhaven, Tiny Wellman, he was a big fella, they called him Tiny Wellman, he was the storeman, and it was up to him if you wanted a new pullover or a new shirt or whatever, it was up to him whether you got it or not. Which was, you know he either liked you or didn’t like you. But after that, all the clothes were kept at Brighton and it was my job, I could take clothing in and exchange it, so consequently I did a good, had a good job changing clothes for the boys that wanted, you know new shoes, whatsoever. But you used to get up to all sorts of tricks to earn a shilling, because one particular, in the Metropole, the Australians had taken over, and there was one room with dozens of pairs of shoes, they would throw the shoes in, me and a friend of mine I used to take with me, we would sort out shoes, take ‘em in to the clothing exchange, get a new pair of shoes for pair of old ones. The things you did. [Chuckle] I tell you one other happy episode too. When the war ended, horse racing started, and Brighton was, I think it was the first race course in the south of England to open. Now, there was no signalling affairs, there was no way when the horses. I don’t know if you understand horse racing but when they go down to the start, there was no way that they knew where the horses were at the start or when the start, starting gate opened or not. So they came to Newhaven to look for a signaller or signallers. One of my best friends was a signaller so he said you come, he said you can do the transport, so I used to take the transport, it lasted for about three or four days. We would take two men down to the start of the racecourse, and two men at the finish with Aldis lamps because there was no speakers as such, and they would signal when the horses were ready to go off, to start, they would signal to us they’re off and then obviously we knew if they’d won or lost so we had a good few days, three or four days with that. But going back to that American we saved he piled cigarettes, whatever, in a day or two the CO sent down. I didn’t smoke, it didn’t matter to me, but one of the do-gooders there tried to put the block on it, to say you know you didn’t do it for, for cigarettes. Obviously we didn’t do it for that but that was his kindness to do it wasn’t it. I would have liked to have met that American some time. DM: Yeah, I suppose all the people you rescued you don’t really know what became of them after they walked off your boat, that was it, they were gone. LP: Yeah. We used to have something about the size of that polished wood and every rescue you’d put on you’d put a roundel on, you know, RAF roundel, you’d stick one of those on and we had that on the. DM: Did you used to put a swastika on when you rescued a German? [Laugh] LP: No, we didn’t put a swastika on, no. We had two Germans, two particular Germans. One German, I had only been there a short time. He was in the water or in a dinghy. We picked him up and he had the sense enough when he’d baled out he’d wrenched his leg and his leg I don’t know, was half off or half on the sense enough to have tourniquets round his thighs. We saved him. There you are, years and years ago. DM: Yes, thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lawrence Henry di Placito. One Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Meanwell Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AdiPlacitoLH170209, PdiPlacitoLH1701 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:27:39 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force United States Army Air Force Wehrmacht. Luftwaffe British Army Royal Navy Royal Air Force. Coastal Command Description An account of the resource Lawrence di Placito served as a second-class coxswain on the RAF Air Sea Rescue launches during the Second World War. He was born in Chertsey and attended Egham grammar school where he was a member of the cadet force. Upon leaving school in 1936 he was employed with the Post Office as a clerk/telephonist. Early in 1939 he joined the 6th Battalion East Surrey (Territorial Army). Lawrence went through military training, but he was told he would not be allowed to remain in the unit because of his Italian parents. At the outbreak of war, he left the Post Office and was employed building naval vessels at a boat yard on the Thames in Chertsey. It was here that he first heard about RAF Air Sea Rescue, which he successfully enrolled into. Following training at various establishments he was posted to Newhaven on High Speed Launch 190 as a gunner. Lawrence describes rescue operations: a Spitfire leading them to an airman in a dinghy; a Wellington aircrew rescued close to Le Havre on 17 July 1943; a German wireless operator who baled out from a downed Ju 88 and his parachute being divided amongst the crew, and finally rescuing the United States serviceman T G Giles who baled out of a P-38. Occasionally, they would come across mines that had broken free. These would be guarded until the Navy arrived and detonated them. This would result in the surface being covered in stunned fish which the crew would be able to scoop up. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Chertsey England--Great Yarmouth England--Newhaven England--Bedfordshire Atlantic Ocean--English Channel France France--Le Havre England--Norfolk England--Surrey Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943-07-17 1944-03-16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ian Whapplington Anne-Marie Watson Maureen Clarke Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription air sea rescue animal bale out ground personnel Ju 88 military living conditions military service conditions Nissen hut P-38 RAF Cardington RAF Great Yarmouth shot down Spitfire sport Walrus Wellington Women’s Auxiliary Air Force https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/807/10788/PDunbarR1801.1.jpg c38f885fabde34a9f89d47e0ba505fc8 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/807/10788/ADunbarR180624.2.mp3 d7cdd125daadfc734bce7f179423743d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dunbar, Reg R Dunbar Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Squadron Leader Reginald Dunbar DFM (b. 1921, 50747 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator / air gunner with 37 and 100 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-24 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Dunbar, R Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document JB: This interview is being carried out for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Jennifer Barraclough. The interviewee is Reginald Dunbar. The date is the 24th of June 2018 and we are at Mr Dunbar’s Apartment in Albany near Auckland. Ok. Thank you very much Mr Dunbar. Could you start by telling us a little about your early life and how you came to join up with the Air Force? RD: Yes. Of course. It’s a pleasure. My name is Reginald Dunbar. I am a wing commander retired. I think I’d best start with when I was born. I was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland and moved across to Liverpool when I was six months old. I wouldn’t say that I was thrown out of Ireland but it felt like that [laughs] I attended a normal sort of school. Nothing particularly clever. Just normal schooling until I was seventeen and a half. But during that time I moved around a bit because my father was a baker on the White Star Line that used to go out to America and he stayed out there for a while at one stage to my mother’s rather disappointment. But however, I got a, I left school at fourteen and got a job in a shoe shop which was situated in Liverpool city. I persevered in that job until I was seventeen and a half and at that stage I was at the time a member of a church choir in Liverpool, namely, Emanuel Church. And while there I joined the Church Lad’s Brigade and although you may not heard of it, it was a sort of semi-military affair and they were issued with rifles of all things at the time which we marched off to church with at this, whatever the attention was. What it was called? Anyway, when I reached the age of seventeen and a half I was a bandsman in the Church Lad’s Brigade and used to sort of do a lot of work with my colleagues in the band doing, doing sort of training really for armaments which seemed strange for a church organisation. However, a colleague of mine named Norman King decided he would leave the Church Lad’s Brigade and join the Air Force. Now, he was six months older than me and he decided to leave and I followed him after, about six months after he’d left and left. And when I arrived at the recruiting office in Liverpool I asked if I could be a pilot and they checked on my background and said well, no. They thought something less [pause] less difficult than that and they suggested I join as a wireless operator with a six month training session. So, anyway I did that and left and joined up via a place called [pause] a place called, what was the name of the — ? Other: [unclear] RD: Where the R101 were based. Other: Cardington. RD: Cardington. That’s right. Cardington. And that’s where they had their recruiting set up and there was nothing in there apart from rows and rows of tables with plates on the table. Six plates on each table. This was for recruits and they had these sort of well, odd looking meals on board. They were sort of cow heels I think they were called. They were white, you know. Obviously the way they’d been cooked. However, sufficient to say at the end of a meal we found that the bins outside the buildings were full of these cow heels [laughs] Nobody had touched them. Anyway, we went from there to our training unit and my unit was, training unit for training was Yatesbury. Yatesbury was down in [pause] where was Yatesbury? Down in the south of England anyway. And I always remember the place because it was hilly around there and they had on the hills these white horses printed you know, and I used to spend a lot of my spare time sitting up on the hill enjoying life. You know, when I didn’t have to be doing any training. I seemed to be sort of by myself a lot. I didn’t make a lot of friends there to be quite truthful. I was by myself most of the time. I met a lot of people that lived local and they seemed to take a lot of care. They’d invite me out for meals and things you know when they saw me in uniform sitting doing nothing there. However, it was quite a comprehensive training they gave you including of course the Morse Code, everything and taught you all about training. And I had a good six months training and when I’d finished I was posted to a place. Where was it? I think it was over in Lincoln as a, on ground, ground equipment. Actually, I was posted to train on teleprinters. They’re the things like a printer, you know and that was shortly before the war broke out. Well, when the war broke out I was, I had volunteered for wartime training for Bomber Command. They were after, they were after volunteers and at that time I was only, what was it? Seventeen and a half approximately. And I went to South Wales to do my gunner training because you couldn’t be a wireless operator by itself. It had to be with the training as a gunner, an air gunner. Well, I went down to South Wales. I’ve forgotten the place it was but I remember doing my training down there which consisted of training on aircraft which was, which trailed a sort of a what would you call it? Other: Kite? Kite? RD: It was trailed. A sort of a target. It was a target. It was sort of a round sort of [pause] the idea was you hit it as many times as you could from a distance of over two hundred yards. And I remember the pilot putting up that aircraft putting in a bit of a complaint about me as a gunner as he didn’t know whether I was trying to hit him or the drogue. That’s what it was called. It was called a drogue. I don’t think he was too, he was too happy with me. Anyway, things mellowed and I did, let’s see, I suppose two months training as a gunner and we were trained from an open, open, an open [pause] an open seated. It wasn’t closed in or anything. We were just firing from the, from the side of the aircraft. It was a two seater. A very early one. Anyway, we’ll pass over that one but when I, when I had finished I was posted to Number 37 Bomber Squadron which was a Wellington aircraft. A Wellington aircraft was a two engined aircraft, and it was a geo traffic, a sort of cross of [pause] what was it made of? Aluminium and it was made in crossing and it was covered with fabric and two engined. And it sounds as though it was a very frail aircraft but believe me it was one of the workers of the Air Force. It was a very good aircraft. When you got, if you got a hit, if you got a hit and it made a hole in the side of the aircraft you got back alright because the whole sort of, the whole sort of make of the aircraft held together and sort of stuck together. You know what I mean? And so it sort of saved you from crashing or anything. So that was very helpful. But I, I was consigned to the rear gunner’s position because the crew that I was assigned with, when I was assigned to them had already done fifteen raids on Germany, and a number of raids that they did before they were sent home for a month’s rest was thirty, and they had already done fifteen. So when I’d done fifteen they had already done their thirty. You see what I mean. And the captain was a Flying Officer Warner who’d a big system of clothing shops in England, and I was his rear gunner because the rear gunner that he had at that stage had been dismissed from the Air Force because he had medical problems. Well, of course being at the start there I didn’t know much about it but I soon learned because the raids that we took part in were over Moers, the Ruhr Valley, Dortmund, Leverkusen, Black Forest North, Bremen, Waalhaven, Emden, [Gottensburg?] Hamburg, Munchengladbach twice, Sonnendorf, Soest, [Rossel?] and Rostock. And if you want to know why I remember those it’s only because I took them from my logbook which I haven’t got to show you because my eldest son has it and he’s sent it to me but it hasn’t reached me yet. So I have to apologise for that. JB: Ok. RD: But luckily I had made this. And from there I was transferred over to another squadron because I’d only done fifteen raids and I went to a squadron, same squadron of Wellingtons only it was commanded by a Squadron Leader Golding. Squadron Leader Golding was a regular officer and he was a very sort of experienced man and I was very pleased to have been allocated to him. With his aircraft I was posted not as a gunner but as a wireless operator which was my basic trade of course and he must have been quite pleased with me because he gave me an instant first operator’s job and I guided the aircraft by wireless over Hanover, Black Forest twice, Emden. I don’t know whether you want to know all this do you? JB: Yes. RD: Flushing, Berlin, Bottrop, Rotterdam, Hamburg, [Benroth] Hamburg, Berlin, Cuxhaven, Hamburg and Kiel. And after this that was my fifteen. So altogether I’d done thirty ops so I had to leave that squadron. They had to do another fifteen before they had it but I was sent on my way to do a month’s rest. So with, I was a sergeant at that time and I packed my kitbag and went to Euston Station on my way to Liverpool, but while I was on the station platform waiting for my train a message came over the tannoy system, ‘Would Sergeant Dunbar please report to the station master’s office on platform 1.’ So I thought to myself well what the heck would I have to report that I’m on my way for a leave.’ However, I made my way across to see what they wanted and the station master said, ‘I’ve had a report from — ’ I’ve forgotten my station. Feltwell. RAF Feltwell, where we were stationed. The squadron were stationed — ‘Asking you to return back to base.’ I wasn’t very pleased with that of course. So I got the train back and when I went back there and I saw the wing commander in his office and he said, ‘I don’t want you to be worried, Reg.’ He called me by my first name so I thought there was something funny. So I sat down on the chair and he said, ‘37 Squadron is going out to Middle East to operate there in North Africa and your erstwhile captain, Squadron Leader Golding asked me to contact you to see if you would be his wireless operator to go out to Middle East with him. And if you don’t want to go you just say so.’ So, I just quickly thought to myself the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know, because if I had gone on my leave when I came back I’d have to be put on another squadron see, and I knew him and he knew me and we got on well together. And so I said, ‘Well, all things being equal, sir.’ [unclear] RD: It’s ok. JB: ‘All things being equal, sir I think I’ll go out with the squadron as first wireless operator.’ And I trotted around to the squadron commander’s office and shook hands with Squadron Leader Golding who welcomed me like a long lost son. And we had to do some sort of training where, sort of radio training, you know where we would go away from base and he’d ask me to sort of guide him back to the middle of the airfield. Which I did by using my own sort of loop and everything and he was very pleased with that. So, anyway we were all set to go and we set out in January. January ’41 I think it was. Excuse me if I’m a little out on the dates. JB: That’s ok. RD: But out to Middle East. Right. Now, I was first wireless operator. Now, we went from Feltwell and we flew by night and we got to Malta where we were, Malta was our first stop. Malta. RAF Malta. And from there the station commander was a group captain and he was a little concerned at the times the Italians had attacked Malta and seeing the local population being housed in the caves in Malta because there were lots of caves there and they were pushed in there when there was a warning. And he asked Air Ministry I presume if he could hold on to 37 Squadron to get a bit of their own back on Italy. And from there we were, we attacked Taranto twice. That was the Naval base. And Naples which was effective of course, and Castel Benito and they were the total. And then we went and we were released from there. He let us go after that and we went on. We went on to our base at Shallufa which was on the [pause] I was based on the, there as the [pause] excuse me while I just — JB: That’s ok. RD: What do they call the canal? Other: Suez. RD: The canal. You know the — JB: The Suez Canal. RD: The Suez Canal. The Suez Canal that was, yeah. Well, that’s where Shallufa was built. It was an air force base and it was built solely to meet the needs of the Air Force and they were, we were, we were stationed in Shallufa, the squadron and we were used as a sort of heavy bomber squadron to bomb bases on the north, north of the, the [pause] you know the, the north shore of the north. You know where. Oh, well if I give you these actual targets you’ll probably know where it was — JB: Yes, don’t worry. RD: Hmm? JB: Don’t worry. RD: Yes. Well, we were sent out in a bomber. From there we bombed Bardia, twice. Bardia is a port on the north coast of North Africa. So we did two on Bardia, Derna which is further along the coast. Tobruk, Benghazi, Fouka, Benghazi again. Tobruk again. Rhodes and Fouka again. So we did our fair share of that. After that just the bottom [unclear] I was recalled, personally recalled to the UK when I was sent back by ship. When I got back I was posted to the first, 15. I thought that was first. It was 15. Number 15 Operational Training Unit and that was training people coming on to bombers which was at RAF Harwell. That’s where they later had the chemical — JB: Yeah. RD: You remember that. JB: Yeah. RD: Right. Well, that was on the 30th posted there to train others. Well, on the 30th of May 1942 we were in our bomber. The bomber that we were allocated to. Oh, I’ll tell you the background of that. The prime minister who you know. The prime minster wanted to get his own back a little bit on Germany and decided he would like to have the Air Force hold thousand bomber operations over Cologne. Just to give them a bit of their own back. To do that he had to shut down the operational flying of the RAF Bomber Command while they got the aircraft serviced because it would have to include training aircraft as well. He wouldn’t have enough otherwise. And so they had to have a sort of a competition and you had to have a sort of a pick, pick, pick [pause] You had to have all these aircraft of one squadron put in a hat, their numbers and you picked one. And some got operational flying Mark 2 Merlin engine modern Wellingtons, and others got aircraft that were old ones and only being used for circuits and bumps. That’s training pilots to, you know land. And unfortunately the one that we picked for the Cologne operation was one of the old ones and the sergeant, the flight sergeant who was the pilot of this first thousand bomber operation to Cologne was a bit, well fed up with it because when we were doing training for this operation he couldn’t get it to fly higher than eight thousand feet which isn’t very much. Anyway, the way he overcome that was on the operation itself. Instead of taking the aircraft to the city he kept it on the outskirts and instructed the bomb aimer to drop his bombs when he did a split, if you excuse my language split arse turn around and, to let his bomb go when his [unclear] And of course the super thing carried the bombs into the centre of the city or as near as he could get them because he wasn’t going to check. He wasn’t going to take any risks with the aircraft because he was too low. So anyway, we got back alright obviously. Well, we went on training. Training the, and in the, what was the prime minister’s name in those days? Other: Churchill. RD: The prime minister’s name. Other: Churchill. JB: Churchill. Winston Churchill. RD: Churchill. JB: Winston Churchill. RD: Yeah. He was, he was so pleased with the efforts of this that he decided he’d like another one. So they’d done a second thousand bomber operation to go to Essen. Not all that far from Cologne. That’s where they had all the armaments. Well, we were sitting, and we went on this Bomber Command operation, a thousand bomber. It was successful and we did it and we got a few holes in the aircraft to satisfy us. Or satisfy the Germans I should say. We got back alright, and would you believe it that was on the 11th of June 1942, only a month later. Well, would you believe it there was no satisfying the prime minister was there? He decided he’d like to try a third one if you remember. Anyway, we were sitting in the briefing room. I remember sitting next to my friend who was also a wireless operator, a fella named Harry Jordan, and the chap came on and they had a big briefing room for these things you know and they tell you what the weather’s like and what the targets are. It was a typical Bomber Command briefing room and when this chap he got up to start his briefing another chap came on from the Ministry, the Air Ministry and he excused himself and obviously they had arranged it between them because it was his job to put to the audience volunteers for special duties of just wireless, and young pilots. Young pilots. I’ll tell you why in a minute. So I turned to my comrade and I said, ‘How do you feel about volunteering for special duties? I’m fed up with these thousand bomber raids.’ He said, ‘Yeah, alright.’ So we were two of the volunteers, and we went up to a place. I won’t bore you with what happened afterwards but eventually we were sent up to a place called RAF Drem which was a little south of Edinburgh, and we were briefed there. And we eventually, we were posted on to [pause] oh the aircraft there were Defiants. They were fighters. Now, the reason they happened to be fighters, Defiants was because they had been used as night fighters originally but the Germans had soon, they were fighter aircraft with a turret in the top and Germans had learned how to get at them coming underneath. So it didn’t take them long for the RAF to discount them, and so they gave them to us. They had nothing else for them and so they used them to, used them for daylight operations called Moonshine and this, how they did this, the Defiant squadron they had usually around about twelve aircraft, and they had the pilot and the likes of me who was acting as a wireless gunner. If we were attacked we attacked them from the, from the turret. But our wireless job was in the back of the aircraft. We’d have to get down out of the turret and work our way in to utilise our skills on the radio stuff. Now, how it worked was this, you might like to know. I think this is still secret. How it works was this. When we got, when we got up to about a thousand or, how many was it? I think it was about eight thousand feet. Around about that. We were, we were over the south coast and we were met by a squadron of Spitfires or some fighters, and we were waiting there and at that stage we were flying out over the German coast, and we would have had the information to turn on our electrical stuff which comprised of equipment which gave the impression when switched on of there being a sort of a wing of bomber aircraft going out there. It wasn’t of course. It was only us. The Germans, hearing this would take off as a squadron of fighters to attack this incoming lot, which we weren’t and they would be flying this way and when they were over here where we were the Spitfires, who were on a higher level would take up with them, and would sort of have a dogfight with them I suppose. And in the interim period the American squadrons would go out from where they were arranged to go from on the daylights. Now, that’s about all I’m going to say about that but they were, but we went to France, Holland, France, Belgium, France calibration, calibration. That’s where we had to do calibration. Make sure that the equipment was still right. Holland, France, Germany, France, calibration, Holland, France. Oh, and then we crashed at Heathrow [laughs] We got back alright but France and Holland and that was all we did on the daylight. Then we did night operations. Now, a night operation were absolutely different. Dutch, French coast were divided into eight positions of ten miles. It doesn’t matter how long they were, but they were limited and each aircraft of ours — [knocking on the door - recording pause] JB: Carry on. RD: Each aircraft of ours was, was sent to a different position. So we were stationed at, what’s that RAF station near London? Other: Northolt. RD: Hmm? Other: Northolt. RD: Northolt. We were based at Northolt. But on the days when there was going to be a big bomber attack at night we were sent to the forward landing grounds that we’d been allocated to. Refuelled. Did everything right. And that night when the Bomber Command, the bombers were going out there we were allocated to our different positions and we switched on our equipment from, but we didn’t switch it from, we were sitting in our turret and when we were given the instruction swe lowered the seat which was just a crossbar and got in to the back of the aircraft and switched on our equipment, and this equipment was just jamming equipment. It jammed the German radar and when it, we didn’t do that until we knew the RAF were going over. But when they were going over we switched on and it stopped the Germans being able to sort of get on to our people who were coming out. It’s a very vague way of explaining it, I’m sorry. JB: That’s alright. RD: I’ve forgotten most of it. JB: That’s fine. RD: And they did that. All I’ve got here is eight positions which were the positions we were in. Position 7 6 7 1 1 1 8 5 7 7. Just all the numbers on the different nights that the Bomber Command aircraft were going out there. And in the end they took me off it and sent me up to Scotland to train others which I didn’t like particularly but then I think it’s in that thing that Richard’s got. Other: Dumfries. Dumfries. RD: Dumfries, that’s right. RAF Dumfries. We used to go out taking pilots and crew. Training them, you know. And we, it was while we were up there we heard about the landings in France, you know. We didn’t take part in those. We were probably told that we had done enough. And that’s about it. JB: That’s about it. RD: And from there I was taken on as a flight lieutenant in the RAF, given a permanent commission and what did I end up as? Wing commander wasn’t it? Wing commander. And I left the Royal Air Force when I found that I couldn’t get any further, and I went in to the Australian Air Force and did some manpower planning for them which I in the meantime had become expert in. And from there I did a short term engagement with them. I extended a couple of years. They asked me if I’d stay on for a while in Australia which I did. My wife didn’t mind, in fact she was a real wonder isn’t she? She’s a wonder. She stayed. She didn’t mind. And yeah, and from there I came back to England. And from England we went out oh [pause] and we came out to New Zealand and stayed out here. We got permission to stay out here. So that’s about it. JB: That’s it. Thank you. That was splendid. RD: [unclear] JB: It was excellent. I really enjoyed that. RD: Oh, well I’m glad you enjoyed it. I’ve got — Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Reg Dunbar Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jennifer Barraclough Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-06-24 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ADunbarR180624, PDunbarR1801 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:48:26 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource Reg Dunbar enlisted for the RAF in Liverpool and it was suggested that he join as a wireless operator. He went to RAF Cardington initially and then to RAF Yatesbury for training. He also trained as an air gunner, and after training was posted to 37 Squadron flying Wellingtons. When he had completed 30 operations and was heading home on leave he received a message at Euston station to return to base. His pilot requested that he join his crew and that they were being posted to the Middle East. They flew to RAF Shallufa via Malta to commence bombing operations. He was recalled back to UK and was posted to 15 OTU at RAF Harwell and it was from here that he took part in the first 1,000 bomber operation on Cologne in 1942. Reg volunteered for operations at RAF Drem flying in Defiants as part of Moonshine operations to jam enemy radar. He was given a permanent commission and joined the RAAF attaining the rank of Wing Commander. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Egypt France Germany Great Britain Malta North Africa Egypt--Suez Canal Region England--Bedfordshire England--Oxfordshire England--Wiltshire Germany--Cologne Germany--Ruhr (Region) Libya Libya--Bardiyah Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942-05-30 1942-06-11 100 Squadron 15 OTU 37 Squadron aircrew bombing bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942) Defiant Operational Training Unit RAF Cardington RAF Drem RAF Dumfries RAF Harwell RAF Shallufa RAF Yatesbury training Wellington wireless operator / air gunner https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/832/10823/AGardnerHS171101.1.mp3 260ed726b523710ad64342a7d84b1015 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/832/10823/PGardnerHS1701.2.jpg f02b7da4e2822a666278417321f431bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Gardner, Harold Stanley H S Gardner Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Harold Gardner (1923 - 2022, 1801381, 2606144 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a navigator with 106 and 189 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Gardner, HS Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document DM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is David Meanwell. The interviewee is Hal Gardner. The interview is taking place at Mr Gardner’s home in Saltdean, Sussex on the 1st of May 2017. Hal, could you say a bit about where you were born and your early life? [recording paused] DM: I’ll just make a correction to the date we are recording. It’s the 1st of November 2017. Thank you. Ok Hal, so if you could talk a bit about your, where you were born and growing up. HG: I was born in Brighton. I’m a Brightonian and my father got a house after we’d had a flat initially because my mother, we, I had a sister of course a bit younger than myself and we started living in Brighton at Bevendean. Initially I went to school at St John’s School in Brighton until I was about eleven and then I sat the Eleven Plus Examination. Didn’t quite make the Grammar School but I had to sit again and I was an in between person and they put me in to the Brighton Intermediate School close to St Peter’s Church. That was my starting back to school. A very good school. I learned quite a lot. Good masters, good school and I progressed up to about fourteen when suddenly when I was on holiday, my father was in the Brighton and Hove General Worthing Gas Company in those days said he wanted to get me in to the Gas Company. And I had a few tears. I said, but I was fourteen then I wanted to be in the bank. He said, ‘Well, I think this is going to be what I think for you.’ And he, what he basically, sent me right from Hampshire on a coach on my own to sit this examination in Brighton and which I passed with a lot of other guys and I think there was about twenty at the time. And I was taken as an apprentice on Brighton and Hove And Worthing Gas Company in 1937. I wasn’t happy in the circumstances because I didn’t want to be in the Gas Company. But however, I got on with it and we were taught the trade, suppliers of gas, of how to make pipes fitted. How to make metres fitted. All the things you would know and I progressed from them up ‘til when I was about seventeen going with a skilled fitter to learn the trade. At seventeen I was called suddenly for no reason. I still do not know the reason. I was called by the, Ray Hanson, technical manager and he said, in his office, he said, ‘Gardner,’ he says, ‘We’re going to put you in the showroom.’ Now if you think that was around about 1940 just about the war time I couldn’t understand why they picked me because there was about fifteen all doing the same trade. Why they wanted me to go in the showroom. Never answered that unless they thought perhaps I was smarter I don’t know. Anyway, I was put in this showroom at Church Street which is still there these days although it’s a café now. And I went there first and when I got there I was quite surprised because apart from me in the showroom there were other more senior men and that was for selling gas cookers, selling gas fires. It was a totally different thing than I ever thought about. Anyway, I progressed quite well in there and I liked it. And suddenly of course about that year 1940 which was, that was in, we had the Battle of Britain then if I remember and what happened then was the government abandoned the Air Defence Cadet Corps and brought in the Air Training Corps that year I think. So I knew I was getting that I was seventeen that I probably would want to be called up because I was in Brighton and could see all the Spitfires. And that was with a lot of other guys. We just wanted, we thought this is something we could do. Fly a Spitfire. And so I had two, a couple of months I think in the Air Cadets and then I volunteered for training in the Royal Air Force. Now, to fly in the Royal Air Force in those days you had to volunteer. You could not be called up. So, I mean we were all or the ones that also went along we were all excited. What we were all thinking, so many of the lads of my age then thought yeah, a Spitfire. I mean it’s still a wonderful aircraft. And so we, we, you know we were accepted on the Air Force as air crew on a PNB scheme which is a pilot, navigator, bomb aimer scheme and I think it was, let me see I was eighteen. I think about 1941 I was called up and went to St John’s Wood in London with a lot of other Air Cadets and there we had basic training. One of the first thing I noticed too was in their uniform, in their glengarry hats we had a white flash which denoted that we were aircrew and had volunteered. So, of course it gave us a bit of an uplift of that and we thought we were the cats whiskers you know. Anyway, so I went then and got basic training in London. Sent to ITW, Initial Training Wing in Newquay and learned all the basics of navigation. A bit about flying. A bit about all aspects of the Air Force and as we were going to be aircrew the ones that were going to be pilots or wanted to be pilots were sent to Sywell in Nottingham after we’d passed the exams in Newquay. And we all did about one trip I think in a Tiger Moth and from that very trip they then sent me back to Manchester. Heaton Park where there was hundreds of air crew. All of us waiting to be posted somewhere for flying. Either in Canada or in South Africa. Those were the two main things. I was given the chance and went to Canada. And we were sent to Glasgow and got on a ship there. That was Queen Elizabeth Two. No. When is, that can’t be the Queen Elizabeth. I think the Queen Mary. It was the biggest ship in those times and there was about six of us in the cabin. We thought we were great then because going across to Canada in that escorted by Spitfires I mean we were quite happy. And then we got to Canada just about Christmas. On December the 19th 1942 that would be. December ’42. We got to Canada but we started actually in Canada in to the New Year of ’43 so really started operating as a Cadet about, I think it was January ’43 in a place called Bowden near Calgary. I spent about three months there flying like with the other chaps. I could take off and land with a, with an instructor with me but I just couldn’t get the feel of the aircraft. I mean if you learned to drive you know and you’re on the ground and you want to stop, you want to do something and change you would stop but of course when you’re flying you’ve got to think of exactly what you were doing. It wasn’t me and I had to check with the chief flying instructor who said, ‘Look —’ He said, ‘Well, you’re not doing too bad.’ So I said, ‘What options have I got?’ He said, ‘Well, you got either navigator or bombardier.’ So I said, ‘I think I’ll take a navigator.’ Now, having said this I was still green. I really didn’t know what the syllabus was until I was posted to an Air Observer’s School in Edmonton, Canada. A very nice place run by the Canadians and met another, a lot of Englishmen and we were on a course for flying. Hadn’t been in there long when I fell, we were playing basketball and I fell and broke a wrist and that put me back and I couldn’t get back to that same course. So they put me on to a course of Australians and New Zealanders. I couldn’t have done better. They were a great bunch. I like the Australians and New Zealanders. Anyway, I I worked on that particular course with them until we’d done enough training and enough ground work and enough flying and then we had the exams and I did quite well. I had about eight, I’ve got my logbook, I did eighty percent on ground work and seventy three percent on flying. Now, why I say that is because when all those courses went, were finalised two got commissions in each course. As a parallel course with ours the Australians and the New Zealanders there was a Canadian course and everything, everybody got seventy percent and they got, they got commissioned. And I was upset in a way because I didn’t get it purely because on my course there were two Australian officers who were ground staff and had transferred to flying and their, their marks were below us. Below mine. However, because of the way the situation was I didn’t get one. We already got two commissioned so I was disappointed. Anyway, forget that. I got on with the job and it was a difficult job. One I’d never, I mean I didn’t have the schooling perhaps than a lot of others. I wasn’t Grammar School and I wasn’t university but I worked hard and it was, it was a wonderful position. It was demanding, interesting. And of course, I come back. I graduated as you can see me there. Directly I got to this country I was posted to Dumfries to fly Anson aircraft as a navigator in this country and get used to some of the weather conditions we would, I would expect in flying in this country. I had a week there and then after that I was posted to I think it was initial, I think it was an OTU, no. Not an OTU. Let me see. I can’t quite remember what that was. Anyway, it was a group where we met all other categories. We met pilots, navigators, bomb aimers, air gunners, wireless operators and we were all put in a big hangar style of place and we had to choose our own crews. Now, we were all amazed and I understand it went through for a long time this way. You know, we’re sitting around. We’re all looking and thinking how do we do this as pilots? And people went from one to the other. ‘Have you got a pilot?’ ‘Have you got a navigator?’ ‘Have you got a bomb aimer?’ Have you got this? Anyway, an Australian, strangely enough came to me. Not the one that I’d been training with and he said, ‘Would you, have you got a pilot?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Would you like to come with me?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ Quite happy because I’ve also got, I’ve also got an Australian wireless operator.’ I said, ‘Well, that’s great.’ Anyway, we picked up, we picked up a Scottish bombardier and we picked up a Welsh rear gunner and another man and we became a crew and that’s how it was done. The whole situation, all these dozens of aircrew got their categories, got their brevies etcetera and we had to make our own and it worked marvellous. Very few of the core, the crews that formulated themselves because I’ve spoken to obviously veterans over the years since and nearly everybody was satisfied. Occasionally an odd one had to be changed though for whatever reason. I don’t know. So there we were. We got through and we were then a crew. We were then posted to an Operational Training Unit and I think that was Bruntingthorpe in Leicester as a crew. And there we picked up, we started flying together on Wellingtons which is, which is a twin engine aircraft which was quite famous in those days. A Wellington was a very good aircraft. They were well constructed. We were quite happy and we were sent off from there. I’ve got them in the book how many, any flights we had flying around England in the dark. And let’s be certain of that. England was in the dark. Oh, you saw a few lights here and there but nothing like when you get up in an airport these days when you can’t see the airport for lights and when you get up there you can see the next place you’re going to almost. So that was up to me being a navigator. And of course, the other crew go through their motions and what they had to do. Those early days of course it was really a navigator and pilot had to work very closely. Anyway, after a certain number of trips our pilot was checked and we went on then to a four engine aircraft which was a Stirling because we had to then pick up an engineer. They gave us an engineer. We didn’t pick him ourselves. And he came to us as our skipper had to learn more about the four-engine aircraft and we all did our, I mean I as navigator and the rest of the crew went with him and we did so many hours then until he was proficient and the, and the engineer was proficient. And we were then sent on to what was called then an LFS. A Lanc Finishing School. And I think, I’m trying to think where that was. Lanc Finishing School. It’s probably in my diary. We can look at that later on. And there it was all to do with the pilot learning the Lancaster which of course we had heard about and of course, and as we know from now and we did after a while it was the best aircraft going at the time. But it was just one of those, it was another aircraft and we, we all did our turn in that and whatever we were doing as navigator. The others of course although they appeared to be solitary there was so much for them to do in their jobs when they, when we were on operations. It was a crew effort. So that, we ended Lanc Finishing School and then the first thing we, then when we were all ready we were posted to 106 Squadron, Metheringham. And that’s when I started my operations. DM: So, can you remember roughly when that was? HG: Yes. DM: What year at least? HG: Shall I get my logbook out? [recording paused] HG: 106. DM: Right so — HG: At Metheringham. DM: So you arrived at Metheringham, February ’45. HG: ’45, yeah. DM: On 106 Squadron. HG: That’s it. Yes. DM: Ok. And what happened then? HG: Well, it was a question of they were going through all of the things they needed to do before they sent you on operation. What we basically did was, initially was a radar cross country for me specifically I think, as navigator. And then we had formation flying in March. Then we had practice bombing in March. And then we had our first operation on the 5th of March ’45 to Bohlem [Bohlen]. B O H L E M. Bohlem Oil Refinery in Germany. On the 6th of March, the next day, ’45 we went to Sassnitz, in the Baltic to attack shipping. On the 7th of March ’45 we were in Harburg. We went to Harburg which was south of Hamburg and that was for an oil refinery. And all those were night trips. All of them were night trips to start with. DM: Do you have any memories of the first trip? Any impressions of how it felt and what your feelings were? HG: Well, I think I was, let me start with the Bohlem. I had a problem when we started flying. I’d better go back to [pause] let’s start before we start flying. What happened in all squadrons there was, you were called to a briefing room probably about mid-day when all the crews were assembled in the briefing room. And then you got on the platform there would be a big board and there would be a map and there would be a curtain across it you see. And then the CO or whoever was going to give the briefing, and also the Met officer and the navigator, senior navigation officer would come on and then they’d pull the sheet apart and there would be the lines going to, the tracks going to the places we were going to bomb and either the experienced men would say, ‘Oh, that’s not bad.’ Or, ‘God,’ you know. This sort of action you know. And being new we just had to sit and watch. Now, in those briefing things on 106 Squadron if you’re going from one place to another and altering courses to get to this place in Germany or wherever we’re going it needed the tracks. The tracks between one place or another before you, there was a track here and a track there. Alteration course. Normally in, we understood that the navigator would have to draw it all out and work it all out. However, that’s, that particular squadron the senior officer, navigation officer did all the plot, all the plotting, the initial ones of where we were supposed to go and we all had the same. From my memory we all had the same navigation log to start with. So in other words we always, if we’d have all done it individually we’d have had similar answers but to me it was so obvious that if we got one person who was doing it and that was the senior man we all started on the basis line. So anyway, so we got our logs all ready and they started talking about the Met that was going this, that and the other and what possibly we might meet with. Certain parts of Germany with ack ack or fighters and all the other information that one would get. And then after that we would go back and have breakfast or whatever you would like to call it. Tea. We had something to eat. And then that would start in the afternoon about two and after we’d had something to eat we’d get out to the, and of course it would be dark. As you know it was dark because it was, it was February and March. We would then be taken out by, we’d get our parachute harness, our parachute. We’d take them with us and of course with the navigator he had a green bag and all our stuff was in the green bag. That’s the stuff we had to work the navigation out on. And we’d be taken out to the aircraft, wherever, in the dark and of course everything was dark and we would wait by the aircraft for a certain time and the pilot would say, ‘Let’s get in there.’ We’d get in and everybody would start. I think it was the port engine, directly we got in the port engine because that’s the other equipment in the aircraft especially for the navigator. You would start checking. Now that, we would then have a special time for getting or going ready for going around the runway. Getting around the rest of the aerodrome to the runway we were going to take off with and we’d all be waiting anything up to about fifteen aircraft all loaded with high explosives and other bombs etcetera with us. And we’d get around and I think we were probably something like about six or seven in front of us and what was happening on the runway that’s in use, the one we’re going on there would be a caravan and an officer. A lit up caravan and an officer there to let each aircraft go. He’d flash his green light. So we should go off one at a time. Now if I say we’d go off I’d better explain that when you got ready to take off what would happen is the engineer would open up the throttles against the brakes of the, the pilot would have his foot on the brakes and on the steering columns and then the, when he was given the ok the engineer would push, push the, all the throttles open and the pilot would take command then with, with his [pause] with his [pause] — DM: Control. HG: Controls. DM: The steering wheel. Control. HG: Controls. Yes. DM: Yes. HG: Anyway, what then? Then the navigator helps. We did our laps. We helped the pilot. What I used to do was to read the, on my where I was sitting I had an air speed indicator and I could read the airspeed off for him so he didn’t. He got all his attention on taking off and I’d read the airspeed going from say about sixty, sixty five, seventy, eighty, eighty five and ninety, ninety five and Roy my pilot said, he didn’t say, by the way I was called Stan in the Air Force. I’ll tell you that in a moment and he’d say, ‘Stan, it’s ok now.’ And we’d take off around about a hundred. A hundred miles per hour on the, on the air speed indicator. Now, you take off in the dark and from that time onwards you virtually don’t see anybody. You’re working on your, on your chart and also your log. Everything you’ve got down. You start off with, everybody starts on the same course but of course slightly different times because of taking off. And you’d climb to a certain premeditated height which probably from memory is around about eighteen thousand feet. We didn’t, we didn’t fly any lower than that from memory. I think we had been up to nearly twenty thousand. About eighteen thousand from my memory seems to be the operations that we did anyway. And then you would go through and of course what happens then each navigator is responsible apart from the initial stuff that we all had to start with. You then, you’re hitting winds and things and of course the aircraft gets off the course a bit. And what you, the navigator is doing all the time is checking. Checking the course by, what we had was a Gee box to get fixes. Now, I’ll explain the Gee box. Basically, it was, as far as I remember it was probably it was a round green, a green [pause] DM: Screen. HG: Screen. A green screen with two datum lines in white going across this and on the top, I think it was two on the top, or one at the top was a station, two at the bottom, they were British stations broadcasting. No, no figures on that. Nothing. Just the screen. As you know of course I mean we hadn’t seen screens before and there was no televisions or anything and they’re the sort of screens we get now but there were screens and these two datum lines and points were where the British stations were broadcasting. They would send their signals. Now, to get a fix on that quite from memory first of all you had to use a switch and then those, those things would vanish and then you would get two blips, I think from memory on, on the lines away from each other. You’d use another switch. Got the blips together like that. Push the switch and that gave you a fix. Still no numbers. Nothing on it. Just the figures. The movements of these little things on the screen. Then to get the fix you pushed another switch and you’d go on then to another datum point. We had a line going like that and then one there, one there, one there and another big one there, one there and the same on the bottom. But on part of that there would be another small thing marked and that small thing told the navigator because you knew what all those figures were going through there because otherwise the Germans would know them. If they put them through they’d have broadcast the job. So we had to know what these figures were. Well, once we got to the end of this scene we had about four figures and we had then to go to, not the plotting chart but another chart that was all over England and the continent with lines going all like that way and all around this way and that way. And you had to find the figures you’d worked out on this screen on that particular map which gave you then a latitude and longitude which you then transferred on to your plotting chart which gave you a fix. And that fix was relative to the track you were supposed to be making this certain, this try. And you might be lucky and right on it but generally speaking it was a little off that and you checked again five or ten minutes later. You had to keep on checking, working these things out all the time to see that what you’re, that what you’re getting by radio is matching what you’ve already drawn in. And occasionally of course winds change and you’d find suddenly while these fixes you’re given are more or less parallel with your track suddenly you see one go out and you know full well then you’ve got to change your wind. Anyway, so you saw that and then you went back on and got to go back all through to get another fix to see where that is. And from that fix you then had to work out the new wind. A wind direction. And I’m not quite certain now [laughs] I used, we had a Dalton computer and from memory we drew things on this plastic thing and, and moved the slide around. Things like that. I can’t really remember exactly how I did that but anyway we got, we then got another check on that, on that wind and on the course we were, on the course we were flying. We had to alter then to make good that original line which was the track. We had to alter course to that once we worked something else out and we’d give that to the pilot. I can’t remember saying, ‘Navigator to pilot,’ which was always the thing we should do. I think, I think we called each other Christian names basically. You know, it was Roy. I mean we were perfectly happy with that. And so we flew then and very rarely did we see, occasionally you saw if someone went down in flames. You might have have seen something but and you would note it in your log but we didn’t see much I must admit. I don’t think we had initially any air attacks. However, we did go out and get through a lot of flak. There was a lot of flak and when that happened all I could remember was that it used to come up, it used to come up slow and then when going past the aircraft you just can’t believe it. It’s gone like that. And so all the time you’re getting nearer to the target and you may have had, apart from the first track you were doing and keeping log on, your course on that. Then you would get another movement to alter course to get towards the target. Perhaps a short one or another short one just to get into the target. So there was quite a lot of alterations of courses which the navigator has to deal with with the pilot. And so the navigator is busy all the time which I was grateful. I must admit I’d never done navigation before and it was, it was difficult. It was. But it was interesting, it was because when you work these things out and they, and most of them that you worked out were pretty reasonably accurate you realise you’d done a good job. And all the trips I had with the, with my crew touch wood we didn’t get lost and it was all in the dark and we come back that way. When we reached the target my state of operations of course things had changed in the way the some of the bombings were taken. We had what was called a master bomber. Bomb aimer, and he would be a very good crew and he’d be flying lower than us and he’d have to direct the aircraft coming in on to certain flares that may be dropping from other aircraft. ‘Bomb on the green flares,’ or something like that. Or other factors came into that which he’d give instructions to the pilot as to what they should do and what they shouldn’t do. And then sometimes at the end he may have, may say to you, ‘Main stream finish. Stop bombing and return home.’ Or something like this and then you, you’d find all your tracks going and the tracks coming back weren’t the same. You had to go a different way so you couldn’t, well I wouldn’t say you couldn’t, you couldn’t cheat anyway with navigation. You’ve got to do each one as you come. And then you get back after an operation and there again we were lucky, of course. One or two didn’t come back but when we got back to the aerodrome, also when you think that we’re it’s an aerodrome in a field in Lincolnshire and all these others coming back. We get back and find if we were, if we were perhaps about on time we’d give instructions to the pilot. You get the instructions to land. On the other hand if we were perhaps a bit late and perhaps you were a new crew we’d be given instruction from the, the control tower. I think our aircraft was M for Mabel. Mabel. I think we had some other name for it. Anyway, you would fly Angels 9 and so we had to keep up at nine thousand feet going around in circle to there and we were given a number until our number was called so we would go in and land. That’s how they got rid of so many aircraft coming. They couldn’t all come in at one time. And that was the end of an operation and from then onwards obviously we were picked up in the aerodrome and taken to debriefing with intelligence officers. And I can always remember that because we’d get a drink of coffee or whatever it was and cigarettes. Well, of course all the boys go. I didn’t smoke. Someone else. I took them for somebody else. No. I never smoked. I didn’t like smoking. I never did. That was great. And so that was the end of one operation. So we’ll have a breather? DM: So up ‘til now I think I’m right in saying your operations had been at night but you then started to do some daylight raids. What was the first one of those? HG: Well, the first one I’ve got in there is the Essen raid which was an extremely big raid. We did, we didn’t really know that until we got there because I’ve got it here marked one thousand. But as we’ve seen from the, there was, there was actually one thousand and seventy nine aircraft which was the biggest one, a thousand bomber raids in the war. But the point was that there had been thousand bomber raids way back in ’62. This was the biggest one. DM: ’42. Back in ’42. HG: ’42. Yes. What did I say? DM: ’62. HG: Yeah. ’42. There had been thousand but then they weren’t using necessarily bomber squadrons. They were using OTUs, Operational Training Units to make them up. When Bomber Harris decided he’d have a thousand bomber raid he had to, had to scrape the aircraft from all over the country. But these other, this last one of course there were seven hundred and fifty Lancasters, two ninety three Halifaxes and thirty six Mosquitoes of all bomber groups. This was the largest number of aircraft sent to a target so far in the war. Three Lancasters were lost. We lost three on that raid. I remember in particular I think one of our squadron got, he didn’t get shot down, I think that’s when I saw one from there, the gunner, the rear gunner a big cookie which was a tremendous big explosive bomb dropped from above and knocked off. I think knocked off the tail of one of the other squadrons. That’s how one of them was lost that way. It was not, it wasn’t shot down by the Germans. But it does say there was three gone. I don’t know what the other reasons were. Four thousand six hundred and sixty one tonnes of bombs were dropped. The accurate, was accurate and this [grey blue] virtually paralysed Essen until the American troops entered the city sometime later. Essen’s recording system produced no proper reports but eight hundred and ninety seven people were said to have been killed which is not too happy for them but there we are. That was war. I know. So that was the biggest daylight and we did have a daylight again close to that to Dortmund the next day. That was another daylight but I’ve got nothing, I can’t remember anything about that one except it's in the log. Five hours thirty. And then we did go to the, 27th of March, getting to the end of March went to Farge marshalling yards. I can’t remember much. I can’t remember that one at all. So that then I think [pause – pages turning] and then we did have one very last night flight again. Nearly nine hours. Eight forty five and we went to Pilsen in Czechoslovakia. And I did see a note here we were diverted Harwell. I think that one when we came back we got diverted when we come back to England because I remember we were coming back in daylight in the end and I remember standing up and had a look back and all the, all the Lancs were coming all at different [laughs] behind us. Anyway, as far as I can remember then and then we left. Of course, we left, we left Coningsby, well thinking about it we left via [pause] we left Metheringham shortly afterwards. DM: Were you told why you were leaving? HG: No. DM: You were told to go. HG: And that’s what staggers me. All I can think of quite simply only since not then. Since other things have cropped up through life that at that particular time we did know about there was going to be a Tiger Squadron because they were going to attack Japan and I understand 106 was the squadron I found out afterwards was one squadron they wanted to go to Japan. Now, having said that because we had two Australians and I can’t remember whether they said anything. They may have said well they didn’t want, they didn’t want to go. At least to volunteer. This was going to be volunteer stuff and I think they wanted to get back to Australia and I can only think that was the one reason for to just send us off at the very end to just do one raid with a squadron we knew nothing about. I digress quickly here because only last week a public relations lady that deals with us veterans said an Australian wanted to phone me because I was on 189 Squadron and he wanted to know something about the squadron. And I said, ‘Well, yes. I was on it for one month and I can’t remember. I can only just remember that raid.’ And I mean we were there almost, and I mean one month was nothing. I couldn’t remember much about that. DM: So you were sent to Bardney, changed a squadron, did one raid. HG: Oh, yeah one thing, yes. I did one. When we were coming from Bardney I still remember my Australian pilot, he’d been commissioned. He was, he was a flying officer now and I remember him he going on all the courses and he had all our reports with him and he said I’d been recommended for a commission then. So I knew full well really that I should have had it. Personally it was only one of these things, unfortunate things, not because I didn’t deserve it because that’s how the system worked. There was two officers already in the course and they wouldn’t give any more. That’s how, you know that’s, so that was, I wasn’t very happy. And someone else, I saw another chap who was on the course originally said and I met him another somewhere along the line flying somewhere because of course between these sort of bombing raids of course we used to do trips. I’d take a squadron leader to somewhere. To another, you know nothing with my crew. He wanted a navigator and I’d do that for him and take him somewhere where he wanted. And so it’s all sorts of other things you know. Different things happened. DM: Earlier on you said that you were called Stan. HG: Yeah. DM: When you were in the air. Why was that? HG: Well, I go back to what we talked when I said I didn’t like my name Harold [laughs] I didn’t like it then and so I told the crew, you know, ‘I’m Stan.’ And so that’s how I, that’s right ‘til the end of the war. And so that was that. I don’t know what my mum thought about. I don’t think she worried very much. My father was in the First World War. He got in in 1914 and he got away with that but he died quite young. He had a, he wasn’t, he got shot in his finger I think but he other troubles. He died when he was about fifty nine I think. I’m sorry about that because I’d have liked him to have seen that I got through because he was still alive when I got back and I always remember he never asked me anything much [laughs] I don’t know why. At least I can’t remember if they asked me anything. I wasn’t such a jawbag then. I didn’t say so very much. Anyway, I just remember I came home to my mother and my sister and that was it, you know. DM: So the war ended. HG: Yes. DM: You didn’t go to Japan because — HG: No. DM: I don’t think anybody did in the end. HG: No. They didn’t. No. That was all gone. DM: You didn’t go to India or anything like that. HG: No. I didn’t. DM: No. HG: No. I — DM: Did you make any, what did you do in the immediate aftermath of the war before you were demobbed? Can you remember? HG: I don’t think there was anything in here. Wait a minute. DM: Pause that a minute. [recording paused] DM: As a navigator on a Lancaster you were in your cubicle so you hadn’t got a view of what was going on outside. That’s, that’s right, isn’t it? That’s right. You wouldn’t call it a cubicle. I’ll show you in a moment. DM: Yeah. On the wall I’ve got in the hall. DM: Right. But anyway you couldn’t see — HG: No. I couldn’t. DM: What was going on. HG: I was, I was, I was facing that way to the port engine with, well I’ve got my legs to here. DM: Right. So looking out over the left hand side basically. HG: Yeah. Well, my face was that way because all the stuff was in front of me. I’ll show you. I’ll show it to you in the hall. Yeah. Carry on. DM: So did you ever get to sort of pop up in to the astrodome or or have a look out through the cockpit and see what was going on? HG: I didn’t go up on the astrodome. I did go into the cockpit occasionally just to have a look around and got back quick. I think it was, I think it was over Essen when I looked out there because I looked down and we were bombing Essen through cloud. We had what they called Oboe which was I think the markers, I don’t know what, I think it was called Oboe and we had to bomb through cloud. All I could see down in Essen and I can always remember that. Looked down and it well it would have been eighteen thousand twenty thousand feet. Whatever. And it was just one, one mass of smoke. Couldn’t see Essen. I don’t know whether it was covered in anyway tremendous mile of well obviously it was you know we were, bombed in there. It was, that’s all I remember. Other times when we were flying friendly stuff and we had to go for another aerodrome to drop something or take somebody I can often remember going up the front with the pilot you know. We could set them on course and give them the course and know exactly what that was. Well obviously, I could know what we were going to do given the first course and go back and check on the next course if I wanted to stay up there with him and have a look around. We [laughs] I can always remember too the bomb aimer going up to the front there, having an argument, and he was Scottish with Roy. They saw a plane. They was just flying in England and he saw it and they were arguing whether it was above us or below us. Little things like that, you know. Crew stuff like that. And also we come back from, we were flying over England once going from east to west and I registered three hundred miles an hour which was, a Lanc did about a hundred fifty. We did. And in those days three hundred miles an hour was like a, almost like a Spitfire. But it was quite good. I remember that. And also we came back from coming back in the dark somewhere again on an ordinary trip and we had to do in Lancasters it was all part of the training for the pilot and his crew and everything else. You had to do certain things. Fly here. Fly there. And coming back I remembered we lost an engine over England. We lost an engine. We would come back on three engines but really nothing, no problem there because a Lanc could fly on one or two I think. They were quite good. And you see I have to look, I look back because I’ve met so many veterans and I know the sort of number of ops they’ve done and I know full well John Nichol who was after the war an officer used to fly I forget what they [pause] Tornadoes, something like that. When we bombed Iraq, you know. Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein and he called, he called the people who bombed before ’44, that was when D-Day occurred those that bombed after that were, what did he call them now? Tail End Charlies. Now, that was the term, terminology the, I think the fighters used that. The chap that used to have with fighters going into, more or less going into action they’d have a chap flying all into the back of them like this. Connected you know. And he was a Tail End Charlie to just protect their back to see what was coming along. There are so many, so many things you know that that happened and you hear of all sorts of things. And I know full well that that, I mean we came, I mean in that it took me all that time to get on operations and for the rest of the crew and it all really started because of failing as a pilot. I wasted half a dozen months in Canada. Well, not to say wasted like. Canada was a nice place. I wasted six months there trying to be a pilot and never did and so if I’d have got gone straight to a navigator I would much on squadron fire quicker and I might not be here. There’s an, there’s an awful luck I feel about it. Even so, even that’s one at Essen. We still lose. Apparently, I’ve got something even from the times I was flying from from roughly from January whatever it is up to when we ever finished flying we still lost, Bomber Command still lost about seven hundred aircraft. All of the other squadrons and so many other squadrons we were still, still lost a lot of guys. So we, you know, I think all of us at my stage of the game think we are really lucky but the other guys, some of the ones I’ve been we met. I mean they all know full well, I know full well first of all they were good pilots or crews, they were good crews. The training we had was good. There’s no doubt about it. The training we had was good. I mean to teach me navigation which I only went to an ordinary school wasn’t easy but it had to be the fact you wanted to do it. You had to do. And so to that end Bomber Command and ever since then you know I’ve been with veterans who have done a lot more and there’s no question there’s any difference between because I didn’t do as much. It’s not my fault. I had a longer time. No. It would have been more difficult. Put it that way. DM: So before you came out you did some non-flying things. HG: Yes. DM: I think. What did you do? HG: Well, there were basically, they were filling in time I think. Well, waiting for the Australians to go home and we look at them. Let me see. 18 Squadron, Bardney. That’s the funny thing. Twice I’ve got that for Fulbeck. Each one after the, after the last bombing raid in the war at night time. Six and a half hours. It wasn’t very far to Norway. Fighter affiliation. High level bombing. We used to do high level bombing. There was a place in, somewhere near the east coast where we used to take the aircraft, all of us and used to do practice bombs. And I always remember too one of those practice bombs we, our bomb aimer of course he, and by the way let’s get back. I’ve never mentioned the bomb aimer because he’d got his own particular job. However, in that squadron they did, we did have the bomb aimer sit with the navigator at times because the screen I told you originally because of those things up above the Germans used to put more and more of them. So he’d sit with me and make certain what was happening. If there was any others. And of course, we had also, I haven’t mentioned that, perhaps I should have done its come to me now and I’ll show you on the passage in a minute. Other side there was another screen. We had, underneath the aircraft we’d got a bulge and that was I forget the equipment there but that was giving us a picture in my, where I was operating from showed the contours of the land. In other words when you, if you went over Brighton you’d see the sea line and that sort going around to over to Dover and that sort of thing. It gave a picture and we could, I can’t remember how we did that we could get a fix off that to get a put on our charts. I can’t quite remember exactly that one. That’s another thing you know. And of course, the high level bombing. Well, that’s this. They’re filling up time here. Look at this. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven or eight there and I mean they sent the Australians home. Map reading. I’d done a lot of map reading. I mean we’d been doing high level bombing. Bassingham. That was another one. Only one hour forty. Just trips to waste time I think. Air to sea firing which we, oh yes. I can remember that. And we went over the North Sea and of course all this has to be combined with other, other squadrons who were close by and but of course you were given times of course for this and I always remember air to sea firing. Well, I don’t think my gunners ever had to fire in anger from memory. But when we were in this air to sea firing they were allowed to go. We had to attack something in the North Sea that was floating. I can’t remember. They all had, the rear gunner had a go and the mid-upper had to have a go. It was almost laughable because we killed ourselves laughing because the pilots, from memory I think even he said he offered them, I think even in those days five pound or something and no one missed them laughs] Formation flying. Yeah. Well, one hour five minutes on the 7th of April. January, February, March, April, May. Now, I’ve got something I might just mention about — DM: So, before you left the Royal Air Force — HG: Yes. DM: I think you were sent to Cardington. HG: That’s right. Yes. DM: What did you do there? HG: Well, I was put in charge of, apparently a lot of recruits were put there. Aircrew recruits and all wanted of course to fly and I had roughly about I think twenty or thirty in one, one block of the place there at Cardington and I had to look after them. Its strange there because one of the young men his, he was there and I think my wife knew him strangely enough but he was only just trying to join the Air Force and it was a lost cause really. I don’t think he, because I, well I did know about him. The next time I saw him he was playing for Brighton Football Club. And so I was just, it was what was it really? It was just something for me to do. And that’s like when we, I said my gunner and my bomb aimer went to, I think East Africa to learn to drive. They were giving us all odd jobs. I can’t possibly because they, they couldn’t get all of us demobbed there were so many of us. I mean Army, Navy, Air Force and I think they just pushed us around a bit until they had a chance to, to get us on to some place and get a demob suit and send us off. I wish there was a stalling arrangement by the government because of the number they wanted to get rid of. So, so it was, it was quite simple and I mean I could travel home from there and I quite enjoyed doing a job like that. I think I’d probably got a few raspberries from some of the younger ones. It was just a time waster really. I did, I mean I know it was Air Force and I was, obviously I wanted to get out of it now. I didn’t want to because these young chaps wanted to fly of course. What happened to them I don’t know. It was just a question again of something to pass. Being warrant officer, you know to look after them. See if they behaved themselves, I suppose. DM: And when did you actually leave the Air Force? What date? HG: Well — DM: Effectively. So — HG: That I don’t know. I would say it was, wait a minute [pause] I would say it was, yeah effectively discharged on the 25th of November 1946. DM: Right. HG: That would be it. The other one is, is when I got enlisted in the Royal Air Force Reserve in 1949 or whatever it was. DM: What did you do after you left the Air Force? HG: Well, I went straight back to my business. British, no it wasn’t British Gas. It was still Brighton, no. let me see. Let me try and think. I think it was — DM: I think it was ’48 when it was nationalised. HG: Yeah. So it would still be at Brighton And Hove General Gas Company and I went back and from memory I went back straight into the showroom. They put me straight back in the showroom. I’m just trying, I’m still trying to remember that. I can’t believe anything else other than show. I certainly, I can’t remember anything else other than the showroom. Yes. Yeah. I’m sure I went straight back into the showroom trying to get used to the equipment and all the things that happened even though I was only a few years away. See how the gas cooking and fires etcetera had progressed and, and shortly after that and I don’t know how many months it was the Gas Company advertised they wanted representatives to go in to meet people. To go around to premises to get gas. And I got out of the showroom then and I applied for that and I got as a representative. At the same time funnily enough there was several others, another two Air Force chaps I think both were ground staff chaps went the same, did the same thing and we became representatives from British Gas and were given an area to introduce gas to people and see builders. See what we could do with them. And I started that and I went on for a long long time as an ordinary representative which I enjoyed. In those early days of course we had to come, I had to come out as far as this place. It wasn’t as built up. Saltdean wasn’t as built up as it is now and in fact myself and one of the senior officers in British Gas, an older man than me we managed, there wasn’t much gas in this area and we managed to get there was supply right over the side and we had to get it right down the middle of Saltdean and once we started that and I was doing a lot with customers, builders to selling gas because what was happening in the world or in Britain was everything was going to be electric. They wanted all everything was going to be electric. They didn’t win. The gas took over and then we had oil coming in which we had to fight them to get and they had these old boilers to start with and we then we managed to get over the oil business because people had this oil in tanks in their gardens and that became problems and they were dirty things and and we were on the up. Gas was on the up. On the up. What was I saying then? It was, it was getting a hold. The representatives and all of us were, we weren’t all aircrew. One or two were and others were one or two Army and that sort of thing and we were doing our best to sell. We did a good job and we got a hold on and the gas built up from them days when we started that and then I used to come out here. And we used to have to go by bus in those days. We had to get by bus all smartly dressed. Smart dress. And if you wanted to get back in the office you had to find a phone box you see and walk to it [laughs] and put your four pence in. But then it was becoming good then. I become a senior in that department and then afterwards I wanted to get on better so I transferred to our commercial department which gave me instead of domestic houses I was dealing with places like hotels and police stations and all the big commercial buildings etcetera and also for restaurants and cafés. All the stuff where we were getting more money in of course. And I had that for some time and of course by that time we were given cars, or at least we bought cars and they’d paid us money for them. And then I wanted to get on further than that. I saw what I was doing as a commercial representative and then I applied with all the other commercial reps, some were Air Force, some were whatever they were. All were similar ages and we all wanted this job. I wanted to be, I wanted to be a management and I applied for management and I become an assistant manager. I always remember the, I had an appointment in London and there was several other guys there. I didn’t know them other than they were Londoners and we had to have an interview and one chap came out. He wanted me to talk about whatever they wanted me to talk about. I can’t remember that. And I said, and he said, ‘I’m giving up.’ I thought, giving up? I’m not giving up. So I went in to this when I had my interview. I can’t remember what it was but I had to talk about something and, and it also reminded me because when I got my commission as a PO, pilot officer and I think that was when after the war I had to address a lot of other officers and I had to stand on the front and talk about something or other. So so I suppose that’s when my talking started. In the business of gas and I did alright. I got the, I was an assistant, assistant industrial commercial sales manager and I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that right to the end and I retired in this place. DM: Looking back did you enjoy your days in Bomber Command? HG: Yes. Now, I sometimes mention that often with people I enjoy the navigator. I said, no that’s the wrong thing. Let’s be honest I was bloody frightened at times. I mean, no. Let’s put it this way I liked it because I was involved. I was doing something. I could, I could not have been a gunner but I couldn’t have sat there in my young days just sitting there and it was difficult for them. Especially for nine hours you’re sitting there watching the dark all the time. Very difficult. I had to work. Great. I liked and I still like working. I still, I’m now in my age now that, well I do a lot of work. I do have help but I still, touch wood I can still walk. I press myself. I think I’ve done that right all the time. I’m not wanting to be, I don’t think I’ve ever been lazy. Put it this way. And so to that end I’ve been lucky but yeah navigator, well any aircrew there was a worry you know. The times when everybody was silent because they were worrying about this and that and I mean I was silent because it was my, me doing of course navigating and touch wood I did all right. I was assessed afterwards as average. Now that’s great because one has to think that all there were some great aircrew. I know that some of the flights they were great and some of the navigators were great but of course the pilots were even so and they were extremely good, extremely good individuals of course. I couldn’t match with them. But there were so many of us were average and did average things except and went a lot on bombs and of course lost a lot of lives and all of us it was dangerous. But when you were doing that you hear things but you’ve got you’ve got a mind on what you’re doing here. So it was great to be involved and working. Now, you know it wasn’t enjoyable but it was worthwhile. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harold Stanley Gardner Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Meanwell Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AGardnerHS171101, PGardnerHS1701 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:03:36 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource During the final months of World War 2, Harold Gardner was a navigator on 106 Squadron based at RAF Metheringham. Known throughout his RAF career as Stan, he was born in Brighton. In 1937 aged 14, his father arranged employment for him with the Brighton Gas Company. Being enthralled watching Spitfires flying over the South Coast, Stan volunteered for pilot, navigator, bomb aimer training in 1941 with the RAF. After initial training he was deployed to Canada for pilot training. Although advancing on the course to take-off and landing solo, Stan was uncomfortable in the pilot role and he requested a move to navigator training. After graduating, he returned to the UK and, following progression though Operational Training Unit and Lancaster Finishing School, Stan was posted to 106 Squadron in February 1945, with his first operation on the 5th March. He provides a detailed account of the procedures navigators followed to ensure the aircraft remained on course, including constantly plotting their position and corrections from varying winds. Following the end of hostilities, Stan found himself posted to RAF Cardington in charge of aircrew recruits before being demobilised in 1946, when he returned to his career in the gas industry. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ian Whapplington Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942-12-19 1945-03-05 1945-03-07 1945-03-27 1946-11-25 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Canada Germany Great Britain Germany--Ruhr (Region) Alberta--Calgary England--Bedfordshire England--Lincolnshire England--Brighton Germany--Bremen Germany--Essen Germany--Hamburg Germany--Leipzig Alberta 106 Squadron aircrew bombing demobilisation Lancaster Lancaster Finishing School military service conditions navigator Operational Training Unit RAF Cardington RAF Metheringham training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/856/11098/AHarbuttLN180514.mp3 205fec38ff652d170f3c6400f23fa90f https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/856/11098/PHarbuttLN1801.jpg fba28ca5ac9f92459c6855059c21f6a0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Harbutt, Laurence Laurence Norton Harbutt L N Harbutt Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Laurence Norton Harbutt (b. 1921). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 77, 102 and 39 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Harbutt, LN Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document JH: My name is Judy Hodgson and I’m interviewing Laurie Harbutt today for the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. We’re at Mr Harbutt’s home and it is the 14th of May 2018. Thank you, Laurie for agreeing to talk to me today. Also present at the interview is David. Now, Laurie, can you tell me your date of birth and where you were born and something of your family and early years? LH: Yeah. I was born on the 12th of August 1921. I went to Raynham School in Edmonton. When I was eleven I passed the eleven plus and I went to the Grammar School at, called the Latymer in Edmonton. I was there until 19 — when did the war start? JH: ’39, wasn’t it? LH: Well, when the war started I went to the recruiting office at Eltham to join up, thinking I would go in the Navy. Unfortunately, being a Civil Servant I was unable to join the Navy so the recruiting officer offered me, ‘Or you can go in the Air Force if you wish.’ And he said, ‘Exactly what do you do?’ I said, ‘I’m a wireless operator telegraphist.’ ‘Oh, that’s just what we want.’ So from there on I was sent up to Morecambe to do foot training. Done several weeks there, and then I had an interview regarding going on aircrew. I said to them at the time, ‘What’s aircrew?’ Because at that time I’d failed to see many aircraft. They said, ‘Well, you’ve got fighters and bombers. Bombers obviously have more than one and you would become one of the crew.’ So that was what happened. I joined, joined 77 Squadron in Yorkshire which were Whitley bombers and we’d done, done all the raids of, leaflet raids in Europe, Germany, Italy. I’d done that for possibly about four or five months, then I was posted overseas. I joined 77 Squadron in Aden and the war escalated in Egypt, and we was all sent up in to Egypt which was the Middle East and I was stuck in the Western Desert for three and a half years. From there went into Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia. All those countries. I was there ‘til January 1945. When I returned to England I went to Number 13 MU which was at [pause] oh, where was it now? I forget. In actual fact I forget. I forget the name of it at the moment. Henlow. Henlow, was that. Yeah. I was Henlow until April ’45. I was, I left the Air Force in 1945. About April ’45, went home, and then shortly after I joined the Metropolitan Police. I was in the Metropolitan Police twenty five years. Coming out of there I became a publican and was a publican in the Pilot Public House, Greenwich, and I done seven years there. Having done seven years there I moved to Brandon here. Brandon and then Thetford. And I had a opportunity to join a security unit, Abbey Security and I was there for twenty years. I retired there when I was sixty three, and thinking that I’d, I’d done enough. So since sixty three I’ve enjoyed my full retirement and here I am. JH: So did you do any other things through your retirement then? Did you — LH: Pardon? JH: In all those years since you’ve been retired have you been active in anything in particular? Have you followed any hobbies or — LH: Well, I’m a keen fisherman. I like trout fishing, and shooting which I’ve got guns and things. Yeah. Oh, I like fishing but unfortunately through health now I’ve got rheumatism or whatever in my knees and I’m unable to do it. So walking is out of the question. So, unfortunately I’m a bit home bound. JH: And going back to when you were in the war did you actually have any particular special mates that you remember in your crews? Or — LH: Well, I had so many but they changed so quickly, you know. JH: Right. LH: It wasn’t a good business my business. JH: No. No. No. LH: No. No it wasn’t. JH: So there wasn’t, there wasn’t anybody you kept in touch with. LH: I was detached from the squadron in 1943 to a fighter squadron because I’d had an accident. I’d had an accident and hurt my knee and my hands and I couldn’t use my hand for signalling, so I went to this squadron. A fighter, it was a fighter bomber squadron. 94 Squadron. Sir Ian and Sir Alistair were two of the pilots that flew on there. Both got killed. And I was on that for about two years I suppose. JH: Yes. LH: I think they forgot about me and then suddenly they remembered and I joined 55 Squadron and was operating in Italy then. And that’s when I came home. Yeah. JH: And you didn’t get shot down in any of that? LH: Pardon? JH: Were you shot down ever in any of your — LH: Well, yeah. In Fort Cassino. We were bombing Fort Cassino about every half hour sort of thing and we got hit and I had to get out rather quickly at night. Not very good, not knowing how high you were or what. But the skipper said, ‘You stand more chance of getting out then you do with standing by.’ So I baled, out and no sooner had I pulled my cord I hit the deck. Of course, I hurt my knee very badly, and all of a sudden there was a load of foreigners around me and I thought they were Germans but they weren’t they were Poles. Fortunately for me. JH: Yes. LH: And then I was taken to hospital and had a few weeks in the hospital prior to coming home, you know. JH: So, how long was it before you had to go back up flying again? LH: I didn’t go flying any more after that. JH: Oh. Not after that. LH: That was the end of it. JH: Right. Right. LH: Yeah. My flying days were over because as I say radar had taken over and I was not, well wanted any longer, you know. I went to this gun turret maintenance unit and of course obviously I knew all about gun turrets. Gun turrets used to come there, stripped off, reassembled. They used to test them and then they used to go back to the squadrons, you know. That was the job I did there. You know, an important job, but I think I made more photo frames there than I did anything else. JH: And what were the actual planes like that you were on? How did you, you know the, was it the Whitley was it you were on? LH: The Whitley. JH: And which other ones? LH: The Whitley was, you had at that time the only heavy bombers you had was the Whitley and the Wellington. They were the only heavy bombers we had and they had a crew of five men. You know. They were the only ones. No, no others. All the others were medium bombers, you know. Nothing really. The Blenheim. All around here. There’s a Blenheim. That was 108 Squadron. That was the one. The Liberators. You know. JH: So, what did you, what were you on after the Whitley? Which, what plane did you go to next? LH: I was on Blenheims. JH: The Blenheim. LH: The Blenheims. Yeah. I’ve flown in Blenheims, Marauders, oh several actually but what were the others, one? Yeah. It’s funny how you, when you’re put to the test you start forgetting, you know. Well, its seventy years ago now. JH: No. That’s fine. LH: You can’t remember your shopping list then can you? But anyway, you know I had a good trip around and I’m thankful for whoever was responsible for my [laughs] JH: Yeah. LH: Safety to be here. JH: Exactly. And did you get much leave? Were you sent back home when you went out? Very often? LH: Oh yeah. When I got leave I had weeks and weeks of leave. JH: Oh. Did you? LH: Yeah. JH: Oh. LH: That was it. I got in the way I think then. Yeah. My wife was a WAAF but she came out the services. JH: Right. LH: When I retired, you know. JH: Yes. LH: And — JH: Did you have family? LH: Pardon? JH: Did you have family? LH: Oh yeah. I have three girls. One lives at Harlow. One lives in Holborn, London. One lives in Canterbury, Kent. The one in Canterbury, Kent comes and sees me quite regularly and the one in Harlow. Yeah. They’re quite good. Yeah. My girls. Three girls. I always wanted a boy but there we go. Oh yeah, I’ve got, my family is alright. Yeah. JH: Do you have grandchildren? Or — LH: Oh, I have grandchildren. Yeah. JH: Yeah. LH: But again, they’re in New Zealand. Yeah. My oldest daughter’s son’s in New Zealand. He’s just come to see me last week or so. And then my second daughter, her daughter is in New Zealand. Yeah. All away, you know. JH: Yes. LH: Very unfortunate but there we are. I’ve got a boat out there but I shan’t get there in that. Yeah. JH: So, after the war did you actually go on planes again? Did you fly again like? To go on holidays? Did you ever go in a plane again? LH: Oh, I’ve been on holiday. JH: Yes. LH: I’ve been in. JH: You did. Yeah. LH: Flying. Flying in passenger planes. A bit different than wartime. JH: Well, yes. Yeah. LH: Do you know what I mean. Everybody says, ‘Oh, I’ve been flying there. Flying there.’ But there’s no — JH: No comparison. LH: You can’t compare. JH: No. LH: That with wartime. Well, nothing in wartime. You can’t compare, you know. It was a hazard there which obviously you don’t have now. You know, you go from here to wherever you want to go. It’s safe. But when you’re in an aircraft in wartime there’s bits of metal coming up at you. JH: Was it — LH: To knock you out the sky. JH: That’s right. Was it difficult to go? Keep going back up during the war, you know? To actually keep getting up there again? LH: No. I didn’t have any difficulty. JH: No. LH: Because I was young and probably stupid, you know. JH: Everyone was so young, weren’t they? LH: I don’t think I could do what I did. JH: No. LH: I couldn’t do today what I did when I was eighteen. That’s obvious. There are certain things we saw that you’d find very upsetting, you know. Obviously, I don’t try to dramatize anything like that. I don’t even speak about it. JH: So, so you actually did finish at the end of the war did you? You didn’t — LH: Yeah. JH: Stay in the service for any length of time. LH: In April. April ’45 I finished with the RAF. JH: Right. LH: That was my lot. Yeah. And I faced the horrors of peacetime [laughs] No, I enjoyed my life in the RAF. There were obviously good times. JH: Yeah. LH: And there was also bad times. But you overlook the bad times because you had such good mates. Good comrades. You know. Comrades that you don’t get in peacetime. You know. You’d get a chap, if you weren’t there he was there for you. Which is great, you know. Yeah. JH: Are there any sort of particular sort of exploits that you remember? That you — LH: I remember going to Driffield in August. August the 15th 1940 when we was expecting a dummy run from Catterick. Fighters. Instead of that there was Ju 88s and thirty five people got killed. JH: Gosh. LH: That was when I got to Topcliffe. Two weeks later we moved to Topcliffe which is near Thirsk and Ripon. I don’t know how many miles away but a few miles away. So that’s where I left before I went overseas. Yeah. JH: Yeah. Because I think that I’ve written that down. LH: But — JH: It was the 15th of August, wasn’t it? LH: In all the history — JH: Yeah. LH: Of like — JH: It was called Black Thursday wasn’t it? LH: That’s right. JH: Yeah. LH: That’s it, and I remember that. August the 15th it was. JH: Yeah. LH: And I was at Driffield at the time. Yeah. JH: Because I believe that was the last time then that they did, that the Germans did the daylight runs after that. LH: Well, they didn’t do so many. JH: No. LH: Didn’t do so many. JH: Yeah. It caught them out didn’t it? LH: Pardon? JH: Caught them out. LH: Caught them a bit of a hiding. Yeah. JH: Oh. LH: But only through the courage of those few in fighters that did the trick, you know. I mean to say I know without fighters you can’t get anywhere but I think by virtue of the fact of the bombing that we did in Germany done the trick. That done it. Yeah. You know. Because I had friends that were in the RAF with me, they were different navigators or something, and they went back to Germany quite a bit and they were devastated by what they saw, you know. But — JH: What did you think of, I think they called him Butch Harris, Bomber Harris. What were your thoughts on him? What were, what were the people thinking at that point? LH: Well, no we always thought he was a good leader, you know. JH: Yeah. LH: Good leader. Definitely. He had the right, right thing in mind. These people who say you shouldn’t have done that to Berlin. Shouldn’t have done that. But let’s face it they started. They were the first ones to do the bombing. I mean to say, even though they were bombing us we was dropping leaflets instead of bombs. Couldn’t find the target. We used to drop the bombs in the North Sea. But they used to put the leaflets down the flare chute. On all the aircraft we had a flare chute where you dropped the flare to lighten up the target, you know but you used to drop and push them down there, you know. Used to, I used to come off the desk and the bomb aimer used to give me a hand and that’s the job we used to do. Yeah. JH: Yeah. LH: Yeah. JH: Yeah. To Adolf. JH: And what, what were the, what was your duty as a wireless operator? Just sort of — LH: Well — JH: For the people who are listening, you know. What — LH: Obviously, over the target was silence. If necessary I’d call up base and let us know, you know we’re ok and we’re coming back. Invariably we’d go off about half seven at night, 8 o’clock at night and come back half three or four in the morning. And I will tell you it’s cold in the winter but you come across the North Sea and get on the Yorkshire flying field you feel the cold. Oh, it’s terribly cold. JH: Really? LH: Terribly cold. And admitted you had Irvin jacket, Irvin leggings, silk — JH: Gloves. LH: Gloves. Yeah. But you were freezing. JH: Freezing. LH: You’d have probably a tin of soup and a Milky Bar. You know. JH: Wow. LH: Yeah. And for those who were sick there was the toilet that you’d use. Yeah. You know, sometimes. But I’d only been sick twice. What reason I don’t know. I was in a Miles Magister. [Telephone ringing. Recording paused] LH: One of our, one of the fighter pilots on 94 Squadron, he said, ‘Coming out for a trip? We’re having a shoot around the landing grounds.’ So, I said, ‘Yeah. I’ll go up.’ I got up. Oh, I felt sick. And of course open cockpit. So vomited and of course the vomit was going all around me. Anyway, we landed and I was all, my appearance were always smart. My flying boots were always. And of course the ground crew come up to the aircraft, took the mail. I said, ‘The mail’s in the back.’ There’s a little box at the back of the aircraft. Take the mail out and of course we got airborne again but of course my handkerchief was full of vomit, wasn’t it? So I threw that out and of course he saw it flying out and he probably thought it was some letters or something, you know. Must have been a horrible shock. Yeah. And that pilot, a bloke called [Boshov], he was South African. JH: Yeah. LH: Later on in Yugoslavia they were hitting the trains as they were going out and of course he was too low and he got blown to pieces, you know. Yeah. Only a young bloke he was. Yeah. Yeah. There was two COs there. There was one there, MC Mason. They called him MC, because he had a beard and he was the only officer in the Royal Air Force that had a beard. He looked Jewish. A very good looking man really. He got shot down in Matuba in the Western Desert. And then there was another bloke called Foskett, Squadron Leader Foskett, he was CO of 94 Squadron. He got the chop in October ’44 out at sea off Greece. Engine trouble. Baled out and the canopy of his parachute got caught around the fuselage and he went down. Oh, I don’t know. An ordinary vessel picked up the wreckage and buried him at sea. Yeah. Yeah. Foskett. A bloke called Foskett. Yeah. Yeah. We had some, as I say we had some very nice people and, you know they just came and went, you know. But as I say I’m glad to be here. Not always glad to be here but [laughs] there are times when you feel you should be happy instead of sad. Well, you know being on your own for twenty years is not very pleasant. Well, I was explaining to our friend here, you know. Summertime’s not too bad. You know, you’re able to get out into the garden probably you know and, but the wintertime when it gets dark at 4 o’clock at night you know and there’s nobody to make a cup of tea except me. Oh, by the way would you like any refreshments? JH: Well, we can do. Yes. LH: What would you like? Other: I can do that if you like. JH: Yeah. LH: What do you want? Tea? Coffee? JH: Yeah. Just pause it a minute then. LH: Beer. Whisky. [recording paused] JH: Ok. Yeah. So — LH: I was adopted by my grandma and grandfather and [pause] what were we on about? JH: Well, I was on about different diaries and things. LH: Oh yeah. JH: Yeah. LH: And in April, February 1945 I’d left my, my kit bag and all my, my logbook, all my gear at my grandma’s and that particular night a rocket, it was the gas works next door to where she lived. Took the roof off and the house was demolished, and I lost everything I had. Photographs and things. All my personal stuff all gone. And that was a blow. So, you know I can’t ever refer to anything. I mean to say my memory, most of the time my memory’s quite good but you have days when you’re, you’re not so good, you know. JH: Yeah. LH: Well, I suppose the yellow matter’s drying up a bit you know if you can call it that. Yeah. Yeah. But as I say I’m quite happy. Happy clappy I suppose you’d call it. JH: That’s lovely. But do you remember any other incidents and exploits throughout the war? Do you remember anything else? LH: Yeah. JH: That happened. LH: I remember coming home on leave in 1940 and my grandma and grandfather obviously went down in to the shelter but I wouldn’t. I’d go to bed upstairs and I’d watch the, the what do you call it? The [pause] The German candles. What were they? JH: I don’t know. LH: Illuminated. Other: Oh, they struck. Was it — LH: Yeah. What did they call them? Other: God. Flares. LH: Flares. I’d watch the flares hanging on the gasometers. Hanging on the gasometers, but I thought to myself well, what I, what I’m doing, I’m near head office anyway then. I couldn’t be any nearer there then laying in this bed. At least I’m getting a good night’s kip, you know. Yeah. I’ll always remember that. Yeah. The street was hit quite, well Edmonton was hit quite a bit. JH: Yeah. LH: I lost a lot of people I knew, you know. As a boy you know. Yeah. Yeah. My grandfather was in the army for thirty odd years. Yeah. I don’t know much about my mother and father. They were wasted anyway. Yeah. JH: Right. Were you an only child then? LH: Pardon? JH: Were you an only child? Did you have brothers and sisters? LH: No. I’d got had a brother. JH: Oh yeah. LH: And a sister. JH: Oh, ok. Yeah. LH: But they’re both dead. It’s the way they, they were brought up, you know. Well, that’s what I put it down to. Yeah. They had a hard life they did. I had a good life being with my grandma. Because then my grandma had a daughter. Obviously my aunt. JH: Yeah. LH: She’s dead now but she was kind to me. Yeah. Yeah. I know I couldn’t have had a better parent really but it’s not the same as your mother and father, you know. JH: No. No. And you enjoyed your education did you? You enjoyed it? LH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I used to go to the church which was adjacent to where I lived. St John’s Church in Edmonton and we had boys dos and things. We used to play cricket and football on the vicar’s lawn, you know. We were all in the choir and all that sort of thing. I used to be in the choir. I suppose until I went in the Air Force really. And I was confirmed as you were in those days and during the week I used to help the vicar out and all that business, you know. And sometimes I thought I might have been a man of the cloth. I suppose I was thinking about going around knocking at the bride’s seeing whether they were all right [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. No. I’ve had an interesting life really. Yeah. But anyway, as I say I think good luck to both of you. You’re both doing a good job, you know. It’s nice to think that people do what you do. Actually, I never get involved with any of this to be honest, you know. People say to me, why don’t you do this and do that? You know. Somehow or other I can’t imagine myself parading up and down with my medals and all that. My medals are still in a box over there. Still as they sent them to me, you know. I can’t. No. I can’t. JH: Do you know what medals you’ve got there? LH: Oh yeah. I’ve got, well I’ve got the lot haven’t I? Yeah. ’39/45, Italian medal, Alemein, Western Desert Medals, Italy medal, you know. Yeah. But I’d have rather had the cash [laughs] All my grandfather’s medals all in South Africa now. Yeah. Yeah. All in the Services except my father and he was a dodger. He’d dodge anything he would. Waster. Proper waste. Proper waster. JH: Did you, did you regret that you didn’t get in to the Navy? Or — LH: Oh yeah. I did. JH: You know, that was where you wanted to go. LH: I wanted to go in the Navy. Yeah. JH: Yeah. Yeah. LH: My brother was in the Merchant Navy. That’s my brother there. And my cousin. Do you know we were all in the Services? Well, the war came on and when you were seventeen and eighteen the average bloke wanted to get in the Army or do something. They didn’t want to walk about not, not being in it. Whether right or wrong I don’t know but that was the general feeling, you know and I wanted the Navy. But didn’t have it of course. As I said to most of these sailors, I said, ‘I’ve squeezed more salt water out of my socks then you’ve seen.’ You know. Well, I did. We, when, now the beginning of the war there was no such things as aircraft carrying people to the war. They were all troop ships. And I’ll tell you this if anybody has experienced a troop ship they’ve experienced something. I’ll tell you. I was fortunate. I had a, a quarter on the boat deck and that’s on the level. But on these big liners you go down to about X Y Z. Right down in the hold. And all the old squaddies, you know all the army blokes were all piled down there, you know, cor terrible. And of course on all these ships you have watertight doors every hundred yards and they posted men on those all the time. Twenty four hours. In the event of a torpedo hitting which was there all the time they closed that so all those blokes in there had had it. Nothing. You couldn’t do nothing about it. So fortunately, I never had that trouble. I was on the boat deck. Not as though you would have survived. I mean to say if you were out in the North Atlantic. We started off at Gourock in, near Glasgow. Almost went to Canada. Zigzagged all the way down. Got down to the west coast of Africa, Freetown, and then zigzagged all the way down around South Africa. Got off at South Africa. Had a couple of weeks in South Africa and then I went up to Aden which was on the Persian Gulf and operated from there because the war was still in Abyssinia and Eritrea where the Eyties were there. But of course as soon as Rommel got up in to the Western Desert pushing everybody about, wanted all the squadrons up there. And that’s what happened. I got on HMS Isis. Destroyer. It took me out to Egypt in seventy two hours. Yeah. So went from a hundred and thirty degrees in the shade to well, weather almost like this, you know. Yeah. JH: Did you manage the heat ok? Was it — LH: Oh yeah. JH: You liked it. LH: I’d rather have the heat than the cold. JH: Yeah. You were happy. Yeah. LH: I can’t stand the cold now. JH: Right. LH: No, I can’t stand the cold. I can’t have the cold at all, no, but of course it’s different here. When you’re cold, you know I’m allowed a drop of Scotch if I want it, you know [laughs]. Yeah. Yeah. But as I say I do admire, well the work, the work you do because you don’t get paid for this, do you? You get petrol allowance. Don’t they give you that? JH: They will do, yes. LH: Do they? JH: Yes. LH: As they should do anyway. But there’s so many people that just put themselves out for various things you know which you are an unknown quantity. You are actually. You know what I mean. People don’t, they say all the chaps. JH: Yeah. LH: Blokes were regulars. Done seven or eight years and were still LACs, AC1s, but us young blokes going in to aircrew were sergeants straight away, but the difference being they had two their feet on the deck whereas ours were airborne, you know. That was the difference. And it took them a long time for those blokes to realise the dangers, you know. Nobody wanted to be a w/op AG I’ll tell you. Not after, not when the war got going. When there was say fifty bombers going out and ten, twenty coming back. That’s a lot of blokes gone. Yeah. I mean to say when you got in the mess in a morning. When you came back. The little tables where Dick, Tom and Harry used to be. Nobody. No. But you tried to not talk about it, you know. Yeah. JH: Didn’t you used to have a special, was there a breakfast when you came back? LH: Oh yeah. Always. E and B, weren’t it? JH: Yeah. Yeah. LH: Yeah. And it depends who the WAAF was you know. If she was a nice bird, you know. JH: Yeah. LH: See her down the pub. Yeah. Yeah. I visited a pub that we used to go in to at, when I was at the last station and of a night of course it would be crowded didn’t it? They used to run out of beer didn’t they? You’d get, I had, had a mate who played the piano. Didn’t have to have music. He could play anything. He came on the piano and while he was playing we’d take the hat around, ‘A drink for the player.’ He never got a bloody drink. We were doing all the drinking, you know. Oh yes. Other: That’s how you paid for your night out [laughs] LH: Yeah. Oh, Christ yeah. Anyway, that was good but anyway I revisited the pub after the war, you know. Dead. Dead as a doornail, you know. You just couldn’t visualise the activity that used to take place there, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So where do you go from here? JH: Right. Thank you, Laurie for allowing me to record this interview today. Thank you very much. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Laurence Harbutt Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Judy Hodgson Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AHarbuttLN180514, PHarbuttLN1801 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:38:19 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Description An account of the resource Laurie Harbutt was born in Edmonton, London. Before volunteering, he worked as a wireless telegraphist which was a reserved occupation. He wanted to join the Navy but because of his occupation his only option was RAF aircrew. He was posted to 77 Squadron on Whitleys. He witnessed RAF Driffield being attacked by enemy bombers on the 15 August 1940, during the Battle of Britain. As the war in the Middle East escalated, he was posted to Aden. He spent three and a half years in the Western Desert. In 1943 he was attached to 94 Squadron and subsequently 55 Squadron in Italy. At Monte Cassino he had to bale out of the aircraft and was badly injured in the fall. Fortunately, he was found by Polish soldiers and sent to hospital. When he returned to the UK he was posted to 13 MU at RAF Henlow. Laurie recalls the sight of empty tables in the mess as so many didn’t return from the operations. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Italy Yemen North Africa England--Bedfordshire England--Yorkshire Italy--Cassino Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940-08-15 1943 1945 102 Squadron 108 Squadron 77 Squadron aircrew bale out Blenheim bombing mess military service conditions RAF Driffield RAF Henlow training Whitley wireless operator https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/873/11113/AHodgsonH170723.1.mp3 73a75cae0b9bfeb289bccfd1ce5c10f9 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/873/11113/PHodgsonH1701.1.jpg b81bd3a0293b6afb8f750805e6df339a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Hodgson, Harry Henry Hodgson H Hodgson Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Harry Hodgson (1925 -2022, 3008108 Royal Air Force). He served as ground crew with 10 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Hodgson, H Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document SP: This is Suzanne Pescott and I’m interviewing Harry Hodgson today. HH: Yeah. SP: For the International Bomber Command Centre’s Digital Archive. HH: Yeah. SP: We’re at Harry’s home and it’s the 23rd of July 2017. So, thank you Harry first of all for agreeing to talk to me today. I was just thinking do you want to tell me about your time before the RAF, what were you doing before you joined? HH: Well, I, I was in an apprenticeship. I was in an apprenticeship at the Regal Displays at St Anne’s Road, South Tottenham, training to be a commercial artist, you see. And I did my training and as I say, and then I was called up in 1943 to the RAF, and this was when my experiences started in the RAF as a, I was a flight, a flight engineer mechanic on airframes during the Second World War between 1943 and 1945. And then when the squadron broke, well we didn’t break up actually we went over to Transport Command, in to Dakotas. Then we flew from Melbourne, Yorkshire to an airfield in, in [unclear] in Gloucestershire and that’s where we’d done our training on Dakotas and from there we flew out from St Mawgan’s to India which took us about a week. We, our first flight was to Sardinia, at Calibri in southern Sardinia. And then from there we went to Libya and North Africa. And from there we went to Tel Aviv. From there we did a bit of training, and we went to Wadi Halfa, on the Nile. And then from there we went to Aden. That’s on the southern tip. And about, and we went to from there we flew to Karachi and Mauripur, and did our training there on Dakotas, and from there we went out to India. Well, we was out in India, yeah. And there we, I was posted to a place called Ambala, north of New Delhi on to Spit Mark 14s, a Spitfire squadron. And then I did a bit of training up there, and then I was reposted back to my old squadron number, Number 10 Squadron. And then we went from there to Chakulia, that’s the southern part of Calcutta. And from there we did some more training, and flying Dakotas. Well, I was in a ground crew at this time, so I kept the planes flying. And then from there as I say I was posted to Burma on, on Dakotas where we was supply dropping rice to [unclear] and all the places that were cut off by the floods, and they couldn’t get the food to the local villages, and so we had a stint there for two or three months, about six months. And then we, we flew back for, I was posted back to my old squadron again. So I’d been posted here and posted there, and then I got, reformed with my old squadron, Number 10. And then ever since then as I say, I was with the squadron so I was there until the war finished in 1945, and that’s when I got demobbed in 1947. SP: Yeah. HH: Yeah. SP: So, Harry, what made you decide on the RAF, did you have a choice which of the forces to go in to? HH: Well, the point is there were going to put me in to the Army. SP: Right. HH: But I never passed their medical. SP: Right. HH: So I still kept on with my old squadron. SP: Yeah. Yeah. HH: So in a way I was glad because I didn’t want to go in the Army. SP: Yeah. HH: No. I was quite happy where I was. SP: And do you want to tell me a little about, a bit about Melbourne airbase? What was it like being there? What was it like at Melbourne? HH: Well, of course they did a lot. It was a new airfield and they were still building on the airfield, making more runways because it was quite a big airfield. And we used to take flights in that couldn’t make their own base because we had a FIDO system there which lit up the runways because of the fog we used to get up in Yorkshire. And that cleared the air so the planes could land. So we were quite busy in that period. That’s why we had quite a few dispersal points. So we could carry loads of aircraft from different airfields. SP: Yeah. HH: Yeah, that’s it. No. As I say I I had a good, a good life in the, in the RAF because you know, I said to the guy I used to do sign writing and paint these lovely girls on the aircraft which kept all the boys [laughs] happy, yeah. So I’ve had quite a varied life in the RAF you know. Which I was trained to do which came in good stead. SP: So tell me a bit about the, some of the paintings you did. Can you remember any particular ones that stood out? HH: Some of these like Dorothy L’amour. SP: Yeah. HH: I used to paint her. A nice picture of her on the aircraft and all the different, different stars in those days, you know, yeah, Lana Turner and all those big stars. Oh yeah. I thoroughly enjoyed it but they certainly made use of my, my vast experience anyway. SP: Yeah. HH: Yeah. That’s one. SP: So, just looking at the, the planes that you painted who decided what to paint on a plane? Was that you or the crew? HH: Whatever they asked me to do I used to make a rough sketches, and then I used to do them properly, you know and in time to put them on to the aircraft, you know. SP: Yeah. HH: Yeah. That’s it. It was quite interesting actually, yeah, oh yeah. SP: How long did it take to do one of those paintings, do you know? HH: Well, quite a, well quite a time really because you know I made a start, and of course when they went on operations I had to do them when they came back, so, well some of them when they came back. I know we lost about a hundred and thirty five aircraft. SP: Right. HH: On our squadron alone in those, in those, in that war, the years, yeah. So well, our planes were, we used to drop mines and [unclear] we dropped mines on, around Kiel in Germany, all around Le Havre in France. To stop all their ships coming out, you know, so, yeah. We did quite a bit of mining, land mining and sea mining and all that. So, it was, well quite varied we had. But apart from bombing you know Germany and that, no. It was quite an experience it was. Yeah. Well, apart from keeping the planes flying, yeah. SP: So obviously you looked after your planes. So what would your typical day be like, would there be a typical day for you? HH: Well — SP: As a air crew, as ground crew. HH: Ground staff. Well, yeah we always had planes coming back, you know been hit by flak and anti-aircraft shells and all that kind of thing so, they would be patched up and I used to have to go and suss out some of the controls in the aircraft. That kept me busy. I know we had, we had a flight [pause] I had a flight in the rear gunner’s position, what they called fighter affiliation. That’s when we had a Spitfire on our tail. I said, I said to Peter, who was the pilot at the time, I said, ‘We’ve got a Spitfire on our tail.’ He said, ‘I’ll shake him off.’ He shook him off all right. He turned this Halifax. He rolled us over. He dived [laughs] I said, ‘You don’t want to keep doing that too much. It’s a stress on the main spar.’ [laughs] Anyway, we did shake him off, he was a good pilot, you know, yeah. Oh, we had some near misses too, you know. When we had that Messerschmitt 110 came, came in from, from Norway actually, and he strafed the runway and all the roads but luckily a Spitfire got on his tail and shot him down in the next airfield and we were coming back from Melbourne that trip so we saw it, saw it actually happen, you know. It was quite, quite an horrendous day that was. Yeah. It could have been us but luckily it was, it all happened in front of us, so we could see what was happening. Yeah. As I say you still remember all those days. You had good days and you had bad days you know. Yeah. SP: What was the atmosphere like when not all the planes came back, because you said — HH: Very sad actually. Yeah. Well, we could see them coming over from Seaton Ross. We counted them as they was coming in and I said, ahh, we lost a few that night. Yeah. That was a sad moment because like when they all came back all the ground staff and air crew would all used to go to the Melbourne Arms. SP: All went to where? HH: The Melbourne Arms. SP: The Melbourne Arms. HH: The pub. Yeah. SP: Yeah. The pub. Yeah. HH: Yeah. We used to have a good drinking session [laughs] That was, you know, it was quite an experience really when you look back. Lucky, as I say I - one of the people that got through the war. Yeah. I was, it was. Some never made it. Yeah. It was the aircrew that really suffered a lot, because you never know, you know. We would see, see them coming back and counting those that didn’t come back and you knew they had been shot down. Yeah. That’s how [pause]you know, it was quite a life. SP: So you were talking about the repairs to the plane and that. Could you always manage to repair all the planes or could sometimes — HH: Well, we patched them up the best we could. SP: Right. Yeah. HH: Well, sometimes we never had a spare. We had to keep an aircraft spare, so we could take the parts off to service other aircraft that were flying. Yeah. So it was a bit, a bit dodgy in those days getting spares but, no. As I say I, I made the most of my life being in the RAF. And fortunately I, being artistic I done some of the work you know which kept up the morale. SP: With your paintings. HH: Yeah. Yeah, so yeah. Nice was that. SP: You talked about going to York as well. Did you? Is that where you went you say on your days off to York. HH: Yeah. We used to go to York. SP: Yeah. What was that like? HH: Oh, York. That was a lovely place. York. You know. We used to have a special place to go to drink. Yeah. Oh, I forget the name of it now. Oh dear. This is going back some while now but this pub was special, just for the RAF boys, you know. We more or less, all the aircrew and ground crew were all going to this pub and all the drinks were flowing like water, yeah, in those days, yeah. SP: And how did — HH: I couldn’t drink now, eh? SP: How did you get in and out of York? HH: Well, we had a, a courtesy bus from the station, used to come in at special times and if we didn’t get on that bus well you’d had it [laughs] You had to stay in York until the next, next bus come out [laughs] And the next one. But we all made it home. Yeah. It was, it was quite funny at times. Yeah. SP: And can you remember other of the ground crew or did you — HH: Well, looking back at some of those pictures now. Well, we was all young. Well, when you’re ninety odd you, well you change don’t you? But as I say those, those chaps there, as I say we were all in our eighteens or twenties you see. So I know like, well we talked about things and of course everything classed together so we all knew what we were talking about. Yeah. Good now. Well, we had to make the most of it really, forces. Either you do or you don’t, you know. I know some of the boys couldn’t, couldn’t, couldn’t keep up with it. That’s, it’s like those chaps who were in office work you know. They couldn’t get used to the being, you know I suppose in the RAF you know. They’d been ground crew, so they roughed it a bit but of course I was used to it you see. SP: Then you went over to India. You said you went all the way over to India. HH: Yeah. SP: What was life like over in India? HH: India. Well, it was a bit hectic you know, especially on their streets out there. They’d run you over for nothing. You had to be so careful crossing the roads and all that out there because they was as mad as March hares they were. Oh yeah. I can always remember one, one instance, there was a, what they call a garry and it was pulled by horses, and they came around this bloody bend at such a rate that one of the horses collapsed and died. Oh Christ, well what a carry on because their horses are like, like gods you know. Oh, it was pandemonium you know when the horse died or anything like that. Oh dear. They couldn’t do enough. Yeah. Very shocking it was. Yeah. No as I say apart from that you know I have seen seen quite a bit of life out there. The Indians and the way they carried on out there. It was a bit different from our life anyway. SP: And your job was repairing the planes. HH: Yeah. SP: The Dakotas. HH: That’s it. Yeah. SP: Yeah. HH: Yeah. SP: And the jobs that the Dakotas were doing. Did you say that was dropping food? HH: Food. Rice. Mainly rice. So, we used to go to these outlying villages in [unclear] and all those places in the north. North of Burma where they was cut off by the floods you see, and they couldn’t get the rice through by road so we had to fly it in and we used to get over the villages, and we used to drop the rice out, you know. And then they used to [pause] kept them alive. Yeah. SP: Yeah. HH: Otherwise they would have starved. Yeah. SP: And were you saying that sometimes the food shifted in the plane? HH: Oh, well. Well, at one time there although all the, all the blokes tied a load together it all snapped, and of course the, all the load shifted to the front and of course they nose dived in to the deck. Yeah. SP: So, they actually — HH: Eh? SP: Crashed whilst they were carrying the — HH: Yeah. SP: Yeah. HH: Oh, yes. We had our moments or so but well, we got through it anyway. You know, lucky as I say. We were fortunate really being on the ground staff. It was the aircrew that we were more concerned with. SP: Yeah. HH: Yeah. So — SP: So, Harry you were saying about you had to go out to the dispersal units sometimes to repair the planes. HH: Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, like maintenance jobs and all that you see. As I say some of the planes that came back you know were from raids the previous days. They might have been shot up or hit by flak, German anti-aircraft batteries and we just like patched them up and kept them flying. Any main repairs and that had to go in to the hangar for a service you see. Minor jobs were all done in the dispersal point. Yeah. So, yeah as I say, it used to be quite hectic, you know, sometimes when the German bombers came over. We had one scare one night. It was at Pocklington actually, the next airfield. They, they started bombing them and we could see tracer shells flying all over the place you know, and bombs hitting the runway, yeah, oh quite, quite a nightmare. Luckily, we, we escaped most of it. We were lucky really on our squadron. But no, as I say we, we did see some action I’ll tell you, when they started coming over. They used to come over from Norway, you see and well, Norway and from Denmark, up the North Sea. Yeah, because we were near the east coast we were. Most of our squadrons like Pocklington and Elvington, and Driffield were all on the east coast. Those were all Halifax squadrons and all in Lincolnshire were Lancasters, so yeah. But, oh we got through it, made the most of it. As I say we had our good days and had bad days. SP: You say you got demobbed in ’47. HH: Yeah. SP: So what did you do after the war then? What did you — HH: Before, I was a, I worked for a display firm called Regal Displays. I was an apprentice to being a commercial artist you know, doing signs and painting, photographs, murals and all that kind of thing. So it came in good stead when I was called up and I did a lot of that work in the RAF. They got me, being artistic they got me lined up for jobs [laughs] Yeah. So in a way I didn’t have a bad life really. Yeah. SP: And then you went back to your artist, your painting. HH: Well — SP: After the war. HH: I did go back for a while but I couldn’t, couldn’t settle down, because open air life. So I, I went to another firm. So I still couldn’t get really settled down. That’s how, I took up cycling. That was what my pastime was, because I liked the open air life. And that as far as that’s why I keep fit today. Yeah. I still got the bike in. Well, not my, the bike I originally had, but I made a design racing frames you see and I used to do a lot of racing you see in those days. But no, when I came out I just took up touring, you know. I got a bike and joined a Cycling Club and went all over the country. Yeah. SP: Ever back to Melbourne? HH: Eh? SP: Ever back to Melbourne? HH: I went back to Melbourne. Yeah. SP: Yeah. HH: Yeah. I took the wife back there actually. She wanted to see it. Yeah. They’ve got a Memorial outside it now haven’t they? Yeah. Because the farmer, I know the farmer well they’ve still got the perimeter track going around and they use that for drag racing on there. SP: Yeah. HH: So, they still keep the airfield going in that way, in that respect. Yeah. That’s, no it was a quite a nice airfield actually. It was, it was a what we called a model airfield because they did a lot of extra work on there, that one because it was quite a big airfield. Well, where we had a lot more dispersal points so we’d take, take any aircraft in when it got misty. We had the FIDO system going either side of the runway and the planes could land you see without, you know crashing. Yeah. It was quite interesting really. Yeah. SP: Yeah, so that, that’s great Harry. Is there anything else you think you’ve not had had the chance to say or anything that you think — HH: No. SP: You want to put down on tape. HH: I’m just thinking. This is going way back now. When I was called up, yeah, I went to Cardington. That’s where I did all my square bashing there, and we used to go around all the little side roads, you know with full pack. Oh, that was a job and a half, you know, cor. You were just, just glad to get back to take all your packs off your back, used to be quite heavy by the time you got back. Yeah. That’s how well it kept us fit. PT in the morning at 6 o’clock just, we were dressed in a pair of trunks. That’s all we had. Yeah, on a cold morning, oh, getting up was a, quite an effort of it. Yeah. SP: And how long did you do at Cardington in the training? How long would you be there for? HH: Oh, about four, about four or five weeks. And we passed out there, and so that’s where we went to, to the different airfields you see. I was posted up to Melbourne, and as I say I went on to ground staff and a lot of them went to different parts of the ground staff like MT section and the, there was packing, the packing up of parachutes and all that kind of thing. Yeah. I know once I picked up this parachute and I’ve picked up the rip cord, and of course I was, had the ‘chute coming out trailing along the bloody, bloody ground. And the sergeant said, ‘Well, you can take it back and you can repack it.’ So I had to take it back, and I saw how they did it, so I did pack, repack it, so I made a single pack. Repacked the ‘chute but no, it takes a lot. A lot of strings came out, you know yeah, and all your silk was all folded over. Yeah. You had to get it so nice and neat so you can fold it back in to the pack. Quite a job but still I managed it alright. I mean I was quite mobile in those days [laughs] Yeah. So I’ve seen a bit of life. Yeah. Well, that’s, that’s why, you know when you’ve been in the Services it does you the world of good. It’s good training for like living, living a longer life, you know. Yeah. SP: Well, that’s brilliant Harry. So I just want to say thank you very much on behalf of the International Bomber Command for doing the recording for them today. HH: Aye. Yeah. SP: We’d just like to thank you for your time. HH: Yeah. That’s fine love, yeah. SP: Ok. Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harry Hodgson Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Susanne Pescott Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-07-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AHodgsonH170723, PHodgsonH1701 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:31:01 audio recording Description An account of the resource Harry Hodgson was ground crew during the war. He was based with 10 Squadron, working on Halifax Bombers at RAF Melbourne. Harry said it was a very busy time patching up the holes from both anti-aircraft fire and bullets on the Halifax. He remembers having to work in freezing conditions when the planes were on the dispersal points getting them ready to fly again. It was after approximately 3 operations the aircraft would be taken into the hangar for a more thorough overhaul. Harry was also on the receiving end of German fire when the airfield and local roads were strafed by German fighters that had followed the 10 Squadron Halifax Bombers back to base. Harry was a sign writer before he joined up and, as such, was asked by several of the crews to paint the nose art on their aircraft. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Burma Great Britain India England--Bedfordshire England--Cornwall (County) England--Yorkshire Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943 1944 1945 10 Squadron C-47 crash FIDO ground crew ground personnel Halifax military service conditions nose art RAF Cardington RAF Melbourne RAF Pocklington RAF St Mawgan Spitfire strafing training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/914/11156/AKnottS151001.mp3 378d56e9297935f50b102ccca94f5736 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Knott, Sidney S Knott Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Sidney Knott DFC (1268143 Royal Air Force). He flew 64 operations as an air gunner with 467 and 582 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Knott, S Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AS: My name is Adam Sutch. I’m conducting an interview for the International Bomber Command Centre. I’m interviewing Mr Sidney Knott. A Bomber Command aircrew member of 467 Squadron during the Second World War. Also present is his daughter Mrs Jean Mangan. Sidney, I’m really grateful to you for agreeing to this interview. Could we start by discussing your time before the war? Before you joined the Air Force. When you were growing up. Schooling and that sort of thing SK: Yeah. Yeah. Well I was a, I was a youth of the 20s and 30s and I lived in Southend on Sea. I lived in Leigh on Sea which is in the borough of Southend on Sea, Essex. And [pause] things were quite, you know, you imagine what things were like between the wars. It wasn’t very [pause] My father was a joiner. He had his own business. He worked for his father and he, when grandfather died my father took his business over. Just a one man business. And my mother ran a fruit and greengrocery shop. And then when I came up, I left school at fourteen but I lost about fifteen months schooling when I was ten and eleven through an operation. And I worked in in the greengrocer’s shop. And then, of course in 1940, when invasion was imminent, where we lived notice was, I remember, I can see it now. It was on a Sunday and they put up notices on the shop’s windows and saying that we were to be prepared to leave within one hour and only allowed to take one suitcase with us. And as soon as people read this notice, well in twenty four hours from being a busy area full of people suddenly there was hardly, there was only the shopkeepers left. And the Battle of Britain was going on and my father came to me and said one day, well you know we had nothing to, had hardly any work to do because there was no people, many left there. And I used to do my paper round and that was how I got my pocket money. So my father came to me and he said one day, of course he was in the First World War and he was wounded twice and he was in the Essex Regiment. And when he got wounded the second time he was sent back to France in the Suffolks, and he come to me and he had a rough time in the army being wounded several times. And he, he come to me and he says, ‘You don’t want to go in the army.’ Because he was worrying about being called up. This was before I was eligible to be called up and he said, ‘You won’t get in the navy. You’d better see if you can get in the Air Force.’ So I said, ‘Alright.’ He said, because he said, my father was quite a proud man, he never went outdoors without a tie on and he used to say, ‘In the Air Force they wear a collar and tie all the time.’ So, [laughs] so he said, ‘See if you could get in the Air Force.’ So I found out they were, in Southend there was no recruiting for the for the Air Force in Southend so I had to get on a bus and go to Romford. And there was a, there was a recruiting office there, it recruited all sections and I, that’s how I joined the Air Force. And my education was very poor because I lost a lot of schooling and left at fourteen. I did do a little bit of after school work. You know, night classes when I was about sixteen to eighteen. And because I was, what was I when the war started? I was [pause] how old was I when the war started? Eighteen? JM: Eighteen. SK: Eighteen. That’s right. And so, you know, that was the background before then. That’s how I joined the Air Force. But they were recruiting for wireless ops at the time. This is ground wireless ops you see. And then I wasn’t good enough for that so he said, ‘We can have you for general duties.’ So I jumped at it and I joined the Air Force as a general duties wallah. AS: In 1940. SK: I got my number in 1940. I was sent home on deferred service and was actually called up on the, I think it was the 6th of January ’41. Went to Blackpool, you know, for to do my square bashing. And that was my early life. And then I was, after square bashing we were, a group of us were posted to Horsham St Faiths in Norfolk. And we were only there twenty four hours and they pushed us out to the satellite and we was on a, well we were sent to Blickling Hall. We was living in the cow sheds and things like that. In the outbuildings of Blickling Hall. But the airfield, the airfield was at Oulton. And it was just a grass airfield and we had two squadrons of Blenheims there that were really only just forming from being kicked out of France. And of course some of the crew, the ground crews were still wandering back after being got home from France and had a bit of leave and had been assessed as fit to go back to the squadron. And as I say the Blenheims were doing, that was 2 Group then and they were doing such things as Channel sweeps and things like that. And bombing the coastal ports like Brest and other French coastal docks and so on. AS: Against the barges and things like that. SK: Pardon? AS: Against the barges and things like that. SK: Oh yes. Yes. You see. That sort of thing. Yes. And then, while I was there doing all sorts of things I was put on, I was on the fire section while I was there and while I was on the fire section I had two duties. One was the fire section to look after Blickling Hall. And we had to eat at Blickling Hall. There was no, on this airfield, all there was on the airfield was two, about two Nissen huts where the fitters were and we had one little brick building where we had, there was no flying control. They had a duty pilot and he just used to have to log the aircraft as they took off and landed and that was his job. It was one of the aircrew that was grounded at the time and that was his duties. And I was put on a crash tender, and we used to stand alongside the duty pilot. There’d be the crash tender, the blood wagon side by side and we had to attend all, any crashes. We were, well I had to attend three crashes while I was there but that’s, that’s going to longer stories. But then, from there during the time, it came up on daily orders that we were to, they were recruiting for air gunners because in the pipeline four-engine bombers were — that was going to be the future. And so they thought, well I mean they had the Wellington bomber and they needed a gunner. And of course the Blenheim had three crew and they had a gunner on them. It was wireless op/gunner. And then the Wellingtons had, excuse me, Wellingtons had five crew with one gunner. But the wireless op was also a spare gunner. And they asked for volunteers so I volunteered and two of us went from this camp, were sent to Horsham St Faiths to see the station commander there. AS: Who was that? SK: I don’t know who it was at the time. I can’t tell you anyhow [laughs] I’ve got no record of that. AS: No worries. Sorry. Go on. SK: But we didn’t have to go, no test or anything like that and he said, ‘Oh you want to,’ he said, ‘Alright,’ he said, ‘Ok,’ and it was assigned to us and we awaited our call. And then we, that’s how we joined up. I didn’t have to pass any tests or anything there. And then from there we waited our call and it was the end of 1941. Somewhere about October I would have thought, may have been September, I was called to go to Regent’s Park in London because that was the recruiting centre. The initial centre for aircrew. And then from there we were sent to a, after a short course there we were issued with our white flashes. That means aircrew under training which we wore in our forage caps. And then we went down to St Leonards. Part of Hastings and we was in the big marina. Marine Hotel it was. It belonged to Southern Railway at the time but it was commandeered and we, we were posted there at the Initial Training Wing to do the ground work for an air gunner. And the initial gunners, we had quite an extensive course. We had to learn basic navigation. As regards to signals you had to learn the Morse code and read the lamp at, I think six words a minute and there was, you know, you had lots of extra duties. All to do with being a good crew member. And then when that came to the end of that course well of course I didn’t pass the maths you see. They said, ‘You failed on the maths.’ My maths. And of course I wasn’t very good at that sort of thing. So anyway our next posting to go on, they weren’t available to take us, that was to an air gunnery course, because the weather was bad and a sudden influx of people, there was nowhere to put them. So they said we are going to put you on an extended course to do — for several weeks we did just maths, drill and PT [laughs] And from there there was, I wasn’t the only one I must say, I was pleased about that, that didn’t pass on the first issue but they passed us on the second time. And they said, well, and then we were posted to a Gunnery School and I went to, to Manby up here in Lincolnshire to the 1 Air Armament School as it was called and I did my gunnery course there. And I passed my course at gunnery. This course. And I remember it because when we had to do, because Manby was very strict. A lot of bull at Manby. And on passing out parade we had to form on the parade ground where every Friday, every Friday we reported on the parade ground but this one was the passing out parade when you were awarded your brevet. And, and I remember I had to be marker because I was two thirds down the course. And so that’s my position. I passed two thirds down the course. But they were a grand lot of chaps. And then we passed out from there and then I was sent to, from there I was sent to an OTU and that was to Finningley in Yorkshire. I forget the number of the OTU but that’s where we went to. Finningley. And we had to do quite an extensive course there and that’s where I got crewed up. And our crewing up was quite funny really because there was quite a few of us sent to, there was about twelve gunners sent down there because most of these crews that were there we found out were Blenheim crews, which had three crews. They had a pilot, they had a navigator, called an observer and the wireless op/air gunner. And then they were posted to the OTU to take the conversion course on to Wellingtons. And then [pause] so they had to take on two more crew and that would be the rear gunner and a bomb aimer. Right. And the crewing-up procedure was, after about a fortnight because after the fortnight we were just doing section work where the gunners were in one place, pilots, engineers all in their own sections. Then we had to meet all together and the CO of the station said, ‘Well, now you’ve got to get crewed-up. So sort yourselves out.’ So we all just stood there and, you know one or two had got in mind who they wanted, you know to crew-up with and so on. But I remember one of the chaps, one of these gunner friends that I’d got to know said to me, ‘Well you’d better,’ you’d better, you know, ‘Get going.’ He said, ‘Otherwise you’ll be left with that young kid over there.’ You know, he was a pilot. ‘That young kid over there.’ Because he could see some of them getting crewed-up, ‘I’m crewed-up.’ But I’m not, I wasn’t one to push forward so I just waited. And then quite, at the end a chap come over to me and I see he was, he was a wireless op/air gunner and he said to me, he introduced himself like, and he said, ‘I’m Johnny Lloyd,’ and he said, ‘Would you like to join our crew as a gunner? And would you like to come and meet my pilot?’ So I said, ‘Oh yeah. Ok.’ You know. So that’s how I met my first pilot. That’s him there. And he was eighteen months younger than me. And that was the young kid [laughs] they said I’d be left with. And I’ve often thought afterwards of those twelve chaps that were there I wonder how many of us got through, you know. And, you know he was the young kid you’ve got to put up with so I was quite pleased about that. So that was our, so we did all our training there on the Wellington and then we had to go over to, now what was that place called? Near Bawtry it was. A satellite to Finningley, to do, to do cross country’s. Right. Where you, you’re left on your own to do the cross country’s, you know. That was big deals. And so we, that was about a three or four week course over there. Then you go back to Finningley afterwards and await a posting. Well, we waited at Finningley for quite, we were sent on leave then for a while and then when we got back to Finningley we were still hanging about. Finished our course, waiting for a posting and we was quite, there quite a long time and then suddenly it came through that we were posted to, to Scampton. Right. And so I thought oh yes, yes. This was, what’s the time now? It’s about, it’s about, I don’t know, May, June, July. Somewhere about July or August. Something like that. August perhaps, ’42. Yes. And he said, he said [pause] so we gets to, so we gets to Scampton and we find out that Scampton where we are forming a new crew, a new squadron, sorry. A new squadron. And there was already two squadrons already there fully operating. And we was the juniors coming in and as I say, and we found out our first part of forming up we had no aircraft. We had no ground crew. But our leaders were there. We had some leaders. We had to get to know our leaders and our section commanders and so on and we got to know people for the first couple of weeks and then, then we were sent — we’d got to join this Flight. 1661 I think it was. Conversion flight. That was at Scampton. And it was only a grass airfield at Scampton and there were two fully operational aircraft there err squadrons there. 49 Squadron and 83 Squadron were there. And then we found out we’ve got to do this course because we were posted to 467 Squadron. An Australian squadron. And so anyway we, we trained on Manchesters and then after, of course Manchesters were the forerunners of the Lancaster but it only had the two engines. Well when they put the four engines on it they called it the Lancaster and took off the third fin to make it look nice. And so that, that was, you know that was how we got crewed-up there and of course when we were there from a Wellington crew we had to take on two extra people again to make a seven crew. So we had to take on an extra gunner and, and a flight engineer. And then we flew in the Manchesters and there was quite a few on the course there. And then we had to do some bullseyes. Bullseyes are mock operations where we, like mock, they were raid diversions in a way because we used to fly within reach of the Dutch coast and then turn back and come home. But you did everything as if you was going on an op and you would divert. We were diverters to draw the fighters up to us so the main force could creep in and perhaps go in through southern France. So we had a good training there and we used to come over to, of course Scampton as I said was still grass. But unknown to us we were going to be posted to Bottesford, right. Which is just in Lincolnshire but it’s in three counties. The actual airfield I think was in three counties because Bottesford was a very dispersed sort of airfield. So it was Leicester, Nottingham and Lincolnshire. The postal address I think was Nottingham. But we were quite, we were quite close to [pause] what’s the town called? Grantham. JM: Grantham. SK: Grantham. And so, anyway we used to go over to Woodhall Spa to do our landing on, on the runways because the satellite stations, as Bottesford was called was built during the war and they built them as dispersed stations. They realised the stations that were built during the war period in the 30s were all quite cramped and in one section they found that was a dangerous thing so they built these dispersal stations. Well, when they built them of course, I mean aircraft were going to be bigger so they wanted more space so they had bigger airfields. And so that’s why we went over to Woodhall Spa which was, had runways to learn the different way of landing on runways as to, to grass. And then, anyway when we got to the, we were [pause] got to Bottesford, we left Scampton a few days before Christmas. That’s ’42. And we first flew at Bottesford about two or three days before Christmas. We had a lot of training to do when we got to Bottesford because unknown to us, the ground crew, they’d sent new aircraft into Bottesford, new Lancasters, into Bottesford and they sent ground crew there to, to learn their trade on Lancasters. And they had a month to do it. Like we was learning at 1661 conversion flight. We were learning from the aircrew side. They were learning it from the ground crew side. And because we thought that how can we be a squadron with hardly any, with no aircraft. No ground crew. Anyway, so we got there and we, I talked to one chap and he said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘I’d only, I’d only been a mechanic on Magisters,’ which was a single engine aircraft. A little tiny thing, you see. And of course when he come to see the Lancaster, a great big thing, it frightened the life out of him [laughs] you see, and we had a lot to learn. Anyway, the squadron became operational and we operated from there. I finished my first tour and the squadron, the crew I was with we were the first crew to finish a full tour on 467. We, we, there was two other crews that we were quite friendly with. They finished one trip behind us so we beat them by three days. But we claimed that right to be the first then to finish a full tour. And that, that went on to the concluding the, my first tour there. And this was taking place between, shall we say the 1st of January and my last one, my last trip was on the 30th of May. And we were posted away on the 6th of June. And we were posted away. Do you want me to carry on? As screen gunners. As screen gunners. And we said, ‘Well what’s a screen gunner?’ We’d never heard of it before. They said, ‘Oh, you’ll find out.’ So we didn’t know. So five of the crew were posted to the same place. I think it was 17 OTU, I think that was the number, to, to Silverstone. And the navigator was posted to Wing. And he said that was the saddest moment of his life when he had to leave the crew. And we got posted by air and I remember when we got there we had dropped him off at Wing first and then our aircraft flew on and landed us at Silverstone. Well, Silverstone was only just, the OTU at Silverstone had only just moved there and it wasn’t really organised properly. And it took them a month to get organised and when they did get organised they found out they had a satellite as well which was called Turweston. So as all gunners were sent over to Turweston because the gunnery courses and I think the bombing courses were going to be sent from there. And we found out what a screen duty, what a screen gunner’s duty was. We were to be instructors without being taught by — not, not classroom instructors. Field instructors. To pass on our knowledge and, and to take new recruits, new crews coming through from their OTU because that’s what Turweston was. An OTU. And to take them on air firing and, and cine camera work. Well, we had a little training aircraft attacking us as a fighter and so on and so forth and we used to take them up in the air to do that sort of thing, you know. But that’s what a screen gunner was. And of course you were supposed, that was supposed to be a six month rest. Well, we had casualties while we was on there. But after that, so we were posted away in early June and I stayed there ‘til the middle of January and you were supposed to have a six months rest. And then a chap come to me who was one of the staff pilots there. Like us he was a screened pilot. He was an officer, and he said to me, ‘I’m forming a new squadron,’ He’d obviously been told he’s got to go back on ops and he said, ‘Would you be interested in joining my crew?’ So I said, oh you know it came quite out of the blue. And I thought, well I’d done about seven and a half months I think it was and I felt well I’ve gone over my six months. I could be called back at any time and, mind you we had a good bunch of lads, of air gunners there. We all lived in one hut as screen gunners. And it was, I thought well, you know what do I do? But I thought I’ve got to move on I think because if not [pause] So I liked this chap anyway. Although he was a flight lieutenant I liked him. Right. AS: What was his name? SK: Walker. Flight Lieutenant Walker. Clive Walker. He came from Bolton. He was the son of a known name in Bolton that had a big tannery works up there. And anyway, he, he approached me and I said [pause] and he said, he saw I was hesitating a bit. He said, ‘Well look, can you think it over? Can I give you twenty four hours to think it over?’ So I said, ‘Oh thank you. Good.’ And at that he approached me because he, I’d just been on, taking some air gunners on air firing and we used to take about four or five air gunners in one aeroplane and then change the gunners in the air and, you know they would be firing at a drogue, you know. Towed by a little light aircraft. And then we could, we were controlling the, the you know it was whilst we were in the air we was in control of these gunners. Well, so anyway when I got back to my billet I kept thinking about it. And I went to a friend I was quite pally with, one of the gunners and I said to him, ‘Clive, Clive Walker’s just approached me about going back on ops with him and I keep thinking, shall I go?’ And the chap said to me and that was Bill Harley, his name was and he said to me, ‘He’s asked me as well.’ So anyway we sat down on our beds and we had a chat and I said, ‘Well, if you go I’ll go.’ So he said, ‘Alright, we’ll both go.’ So the next day we told him yes, we’ll go with him. Alright. I think Bill err Clive Walker, he had a dog on the station. It was a corgi, you know. I didn’t like it. A yappy little thing. I didn’t think much of him as a dog but a nice looking dog but Bill loved this dog. He used to look after the dog a lot. He liked the dog anyway. And he, I think, I don’t know whether the dog swayed the argument [laughs] but we went, we went, and said the next day, ‘Yes. We’ll go.’ So he said he was very pleased about that and he said that and after a little while we were called. And then of course we were taken back to [pause] where did we go? Let’s see. We had to, mind you we had to leave Lincolnshire then. Do you want to go on because it’s not Lincolnshire? AS: It’s great. Carry on. SK: Anyway, we had to go to [pause] I think it come under Northampton. Let me see. What’s the name of the place? Turweston. Now was it Turweston? Wait a minute. No. No. No. No. No. Wait a minute. No. That’s where we were. Turweston. Then we had to, when we got the posting we had to go to Little Staughton in Bedfordshire. Little Staughton was 8 Group, Pathfinder Group. So there again when I joined 467 it was a new squadron and we found out that Pathfinders were forming a new squadron and of course as most of us had been off for over a year now from a squadron we had to do refresher courses. So we were sent to different places all around to do refresher courses. We went to Binbrook, up there and did a gunnery and the bomb aimers had to do a bombing course up there. And so we did various other stations around. And then we finished up at Little Staughton and that’s where we operated from. AS: Which squadron were you? SK: 582 Squadron. A new squadron. It was formed on April Fool’s Day 1944. And we operated from there, right. I did twenty nine trips on 467. But I did, and I did thirty five trips on 582. So that’s sixty four in total. And — AS: Wow. SK: And then of course that’s, we got through ok. You know. So that’s basically my, my flying life and then we didn’t know we was on our last trip and on our last trip was to Bremer in Northern Germany there. Bremer, Bremer. How you say it? And after I landed back somebody said, ‘This is your last trip.’ I don’t know whether perhaps our skipper knew. He hadn’t told me. So we just, you know thought — really? You know. It just came quite suddenly, you know. And that’s the last time I flew in the RAF. And then after sending on leave for a while, we were on leave for a little while, they sent us right up to Northern Scotland for, to be, for an attestation sort of course to reclassify you now to a different job. The only two jobs they we were offering at the moment was to be in the transport section or airfield controller. So I jumped for airfield controller and I did my, my course down at Watchfield in Oxford as an airfield controller. And then when I passed that course I was posted to West Raynham in Norfolk and [pause] as the airfield controller there. They were very pleased to see me because there were only two, two airfield controllers there and they were having to, it’s a twenty four hour station so — and you had to be relieved for your meals so they were never off duty. So when I got there I was welcomed. And so I was there then. That was the longest station I was on because otherwise we was, you know, we seemed to be always on the move. And that’s where I met my wife. At that station. AS: Was she a WAAF? SK: She was a WAAF. And then I got demobbed from that station when the war had all finished and so on. And then I went back to work, sort of thing and forgot all about the Air Force then. And I took, as I thought, having a green grocers shop I’ve always got a chance to know how to sell a cabbage. So my uncle was in wholesale greengrocery business and I fancied, I fancied to, to be more in the wholesale business than a retail business. I didn’t want to go and serve women coming in to the shop and arguing about the size of a cabbage so I went in the wholesale department, right. And we, because I was keen on getting back and playing a bit of football and we could have Saturday afternoons off then. And it was interesting, you know. When I was up West Raynham after the war finished suddenly it all came out, the orders came from the hierarchy everyone’s got to play sport. You’ve got to get playing sport again. Well I loved my football until I was called up and then, and then I found I hadn’t kicked a ball for six years. And of course I suppose I would have been in my prime then so I thought, I wonder if I can kick a football? So, anyway the sergeant’s mess got up a team and said we’ll have a try you know and we formed a sergeant’s mess team and we played different sections and goodness knows what else. And I got back playing football and then when I was started playing football that’s why I wanted my Saturday afternoons off. And then after a while it went on that I went to work in London in Spitalfields Market. And I worked as a salesman in Spitalsfield Market. That’s a wholesale fruit and vegetable market there. And I finished my working life there. It’s [pause] so you know that’s basically my life story. You know. In a nutshell [laughs] It’s quite interesting though that different things, you know little things creep up in your life doesn’t it? So if that’s any help to you there you are. AS: That’s fabulous. Shall we pause there for a second? SK: Yeah. Yeah. [recording paused] AS: Sidney, I’d like to pick up on a few questions that come to mind from, from your interview so far. Could you tell me a bit more about the air gunnery training? Did people ever hit anything firing at drogues? What was the standard like? SK: I got a standard in my [pause] how did they put it in that? Stop the tape a minute. [recording paused] AS: Ok. So tell me a little bit more about the gunnery training and the assessment. SK: Well the gunnery training was when you’re air firing at a drogue they, you had a little light aircraft come alongside you, flying with you on your beam. So you could turn your turret around onto the beam. As much as ninety degrees. And you’d fire at a drogue which was let out behind. Behind the little tug. And as we took up about four gunners, I think it was at a time we’d take one [pause] we’d take one and we’d, the first gunner would have his bullets. The rounds were dipped in a coloured paint. So the tips were red, yellow, green I think. Or whatever they were. There was about four different colours. And you had two hundred rounds each to fire. So you had little short bursts of two second bursts and then you’d undo your breach and you’d see what colour you are. Because once you lost your colour you had to stop. Right. And that’s how it was done. Right. So that when a drogue came down and it was assessed the bullet would leave a little hole in the drogue with the colour around like a little round circle. And that’s how you was assessed. Two hundred rounds — how many hits you got. And of course it was all done on a beam because that’s where deflection come in and deflection was allowing for the time for your bullet to get from the gun to the aircraft. If you fire direct at him you’ve missed him because it’s gone behind him. Although the speed of the bullet is fast it’s enough to miss the aircraft, you see. So anyway that’s how, that’s how gunnery was assessed. Right. And then also when you were doing cine camera work you had magazines. Two magazines. Each gunner was allowed two magazines. And he had these little aircraft and they did flat attacks you know. They’d be on the beam and they would come in just like this and then pass underneath you. And you had to see how good your manipulation was because gunnery training is a bit like [pause] it’s a bit like, think of yourself as a snooker player. A snooker player, if he wants to be really good like these professional snooker players they have to train for hours a day and keep training. And that’s what you had to do. For gunnery you’ve got to keep training to get your control of your turret because at the turret you’ve got to turn your turret and you’ve got to angle your guns at the same time. Right. And it’s manipulation and it’s, it’s a question of having really good manipulation. And it’s just a matter of continue working at it, you know. And, and it was a Fraser Nash 20 turret I was in with four machine guns. And I had them while I was on OTU flying the Welllingtons. And it was the same as that, exactly the same turrets when I got on the Lancasters. Later on because I’d finished flying by August. Finished operational flying by August. I don’t know what the, I haven’t got the date in my mind but I know it was August ’44 I’d finished flying. And oh where were we? I’m losing my track now. AS: Did you have ground training turrets? Ground training aids as well or was it all airborne? SK: Well, I’m talking, I’ve been talking about airborne. Ground training — no. We did, we did a bit of training. I mean you start off by, when you’re at even your initial training when you first join up we used to get, we was at Blackpool but we went up to Fleetwood and they had some rifle butts up there somewhere on the downs, on the seashore. Somewhere near there. And we used to, we were give five rounds to fire a rifle. Right. But then prior to that, I didn’t mention in the chat but prior to that when, when the forerunner of the Home Guard came out it was called the Local Defence Volunteers. And Anthony Eden came on the radio and said, ‘We’re calling for volunteers,’ because the invasion was imminent, ‘We’re calling for volunteers. Will you report to the police station.’ So me and my old mate said, ‘Yes. Let’s go.’ You know. So we went down and we signed on and we were, we was a Local Defence Volunteers. And of course we had nothing much to start with and gradually you got little bits and pieces and then just, it was just, renamed it after a little while because they had such wonderful support that they turned it in and renamed it the Home Guard. And then of course, as soon as it was made the Home Guard that was about the time I was called up. Right. But then we had other training firing machine guns. Not much done on the ground but when we was at, when we was at air gunnery school we used to fly at Mablethorpe, along the beach at Mablethorpe because from Manby to Mablethorpe wasn’t far. We used to fly along the beach and we’d turn the guns on to the beam and there was targets put in the water. You know, this deep of water like, you know because it’s tidal there and targets were put there for you to fire at, right. And that was just for one gunner because that’s when we had [pause] No. We weren’t crewed-up there so no we must have had several gunners then. That’s right. And we, so it was done at Mablethorpe beach. Right. And then to get your, to get your results of the targets from Mablethorpe beach there the people in charge of the sight down there used to go back out on horseback to pick up the targets, you know. I remember that. Don’t kill the horses, you know. AS: It can’t have given you much time. SK: Pardon? AS: It can’t have given you much time because the target comes from the front of the aeroplane. SK: Yeah. Yes. AS: And you’ve got very very little time to — SK: That’s right. Well, yeah. Yeah That’s what, that was some of the training we did. We did two or three. That was part of our air gunnery training when we was at Manby. And then, as I say OTU you did the training with the trailing of the drogue and so on. Basically that was the training, you know. AS: How about the aeroplanes that you were flying in training? SK: Well — AS: Were they mechanically reliable or old and worn out? Or — SK: Yes. Old and worn out mostly, you know. The longer the war it didn’t, if the thing was operational it wasn’t put on training exercises, you know. On the training stations. It wasn’t so bad. I didn’t notice any problems when we was at Manby when we had, we had Wellingtons there. So luckily I had a good training because I was on Wellingtons all the time and with the same turret and something but when we got to, to being screen gunners we had very poor aircraft there. They had a job to keep them, you know. They’d say, ‘Yes. Your aircraft’s ready.’ We’d go out there as a crew and you find out, oh no. You’d be sitting out there waiting for an hour and a half before it was finished. And I had a, had one crash flying at while I was a screen gunner because I was flying, flying with a sprog pilot. That is a pilot going through the course. And we burst a tyre just as we lifted off on exercise. And so I, I said, well I didn’t say nothing. I thought we’d burst a tyre there and the aircraft just screwed a little bit to the left and I thought well we might as well do the exercise whatever happens because we’d burn up a bit of fuel. So, so finished the exercise and I said to the pilot afterwards, I said, ‘I want you to throttle back a bit and when you throttle back to lower the wheels and we want to inspect the tyres,’ I said. ‘I think we burst the tyre as we lifted off.’ So he said, ‘I thought the thing screwed a bit to the left,’ you know, ‘To port.’ So we, we checked the, so he did, he lowered the aircraft — the wheels down. The undercarriage down. And the port, the port tyre was blown to smithereens. And so he put it up and I said ok. Well, he said, so he said, ‘I’ll let base know.’ So we flew back over base and then we called up and said we appeared to have burst a tyre on take-off, you know. So usual old thing come from that. Put flying control in a panic. So they said the usual thing of, ‘Stand by. Stand by.’ So we, we carried on circuit and we were watching down below and we saw, we know our flight commander in charge of the course. He was, he was a good man really but we used to think he was a hard nut. But he had a little van you know and we could see his van suddenly appeared and it was at the end of the runway, you know. And we were told to fly over. He wanted to inspect it. Yeah. So he, he flew it over and he said, ‘Yes. You have blown your tyre.’ That’s the message we got back. We knew that. We’d had a look at it. So anyway, he said, I thought perhaps he might let us land with wheels up on the grass but he didn’t. He was struggling to, he didn’t want to lose an aircraft so he said, ‘No. Land on the runway and try to keep the leg off as long as you can until last moment.’ So anyway, I went forward. I had a word with the pilot and I said, ‘I’ll assist you as I can,’ and I had to look after my gunners which I got them all sorted out in the, in the fuselage. And of course it wasn’t enough points for them to all know what was going on. So the one with the most sense, as I thought, I gave him the, so he could listen to the intercom and he was to tell the others what’s going on and we [pause] So I said, ‘I’ll come forward,’ and I remember when we were doing all our circuits and bumps when we were under instruction ourselves as a crew they always had, the instructor always called out the airspeed for him. For when he was perhaps doing his stuff and by calling out the airspeed it’s one less job he’s got to watch. So I said, ‘I’ll come forward and I’ll call out the airspeed for you and anything else I can do.’ Oh he thought that was a good idea so that’s what I went forward and sat alongside him. He brought it in but at the last minute he a bit over corrected trying to keep the leg up and instead of what you might expect you’d swing around on the broken leg he went the other way and the wing hit the ground and damaged the wing a bit but we kept upright. We didn’t tip over on our nose. We kept upright and because we were slow, we were lost enough speed to keep us flat and level and I said to the crews, ‘Don’t panic.’ I said, ‘We’ll get out nice and slowly,’ you know. I said, ‘We don’t want any broken limbs.’ There was no fire. I mean I was sitting up in the cockpit with him and I said to the skipper, checking everything’s switched off. I said, ‘All switches off.’ And he checked everything. All switches off so there’s no fuel running about and I could see there was no, it all looked, there was no imminent fire. So we got out quite slowly and by that time our officer commanding was standing outside with his, with his van you know. So I got out and got all my gunners together and with the pilot because he had, he was flying with his own crew, you see. That was their training as well. To learn how to be a captain controlling the crew because he was on the course. And he was, he was a flight lieutenant believe it or not so he must have been somewhere on a training station for years you know and then suddenly said, ‘It’s time you went on ops.’ And he, anyway I walked over to, to our commanding officer there and I said to him, no. ‘No injuries sir. We’re all ok.’ He said to me, he said, he said, ‘You took a long time to get out of that aircraft.’ I said, ‘Well, we’ve got no broken limbs. No casualties.’ So I I sort of went away with a flea in my ear sort of thing, you know. I thought I’d done quite well. So that was one I had like that. And then my other gunner that I got to know which I joined up on the second crew with, he had another trouble when we had an aircraft that caught fire after he’d been airborne a little while. And he of course, we used to control it all from the astrodome halfway down the turret. Halfway down the airframe. The fuselage. And we only just used to sit and we used to control it all by the thing and I used to control the, the screen gunner used to control the tug, the flying you know, the towing the target or if it’s a little fighter going to attack us. We did that by Aldis lamp you see. Using a green for go and red for stop. No. Red was, red was exercise complete. You know. Thank you very much. But we had the green for stand by and then flashing green for attack, you know. That sort of thing. And so there was always little accidents going on, on the OTU because the aircraft weren’t at their best. They weren’t at their best. And in fact a gunner I got very friendly with also, he was one of the three crews that were going through. He was, he was sent as a screen gunner afterwards. He come only two or three days after us. That’s why we had a good lot of gunners there. And he, his wireless op was sent on from, from Turweston. Turweston yeah. When we was doing this. They crashed on take-off and were killed instantly. And that was one. So we had casualties while we was, you know, screened so we thought well might as well go back on ops. So that’s how we volunteered for our second tour. AS: When you passed out as an air gunner. SK: Yeah. AS: Did you know you were going to Bomber Command and how did you feel about it? SK: No. No. When you passed out from where? From OTU? AS: Yeah. Yeah. SK: Oh from OTU we were told we were going to, as I said, up the road here. JM: Scampton. SK: Scampton. Yeah. Scampton. Good job I’ve got a prompter. To Scampton. And we was, we were told we were going on a conversion course. That’s what we were told. When we was on a conversion we were told we were actually posted to 467. AS: In Bomber Command. SK: Yeah. In Bomber Command, you see. Yeah. AS: What was it like? SK: Mind you the OTUs were like Bomber Command. They were OT, Bomber Command’s OTUs I believe. Yeah. AS: So you knew fairly early on that you’d end up bombing Germany. SK: Well yeah. AS: Yeah. SK: When we, when I joined the first crew, when I said they were a Blenheim crew they thought they were going to the Middle East as a Blenheim crew. Because at that time they were just phasing out the Blenheims and sending them to the Middle East. And they were so surprised when they come and they were going to be made into a Wellington crew you see. So it’s, that’s how the war, you know, evolved really, you know. You never knew. AS: What was it like being an all English crew in an Australian squadron? SK: Well the reason we were all English crew. One Irish. AS: Sorry. I do apologise. SK: British. AS: British. SK: We were British, weren’t we? But our crew we had one Irish. He come from Belfast. We had one from Bolton. One from [pause] where did Ted come from? Bradford. JM: Bradford. SK: Bradford. The pilot come from the Cotswolds. I come from Essex. Johnny Lloyd. I don’t know where Johnny Lloyd, I’m not quite sure. He was our wireless op. I’m never quite sure where he come from. So we British. A British crew there. Oh and then we had, we didn’t have the, the flight engineer we got on our, when we first crewed up on our first 467. Our flight engineer really didn’t fit in the crew. And I don’t know what happened to him afterwards. He never operated with us. We did all our training with him at Scampton but when we come to be posted to 467 he suddenly disappeared. So we had to make do with what they called odd bods. If there was an engineer that hadn’t got a crew on the squadron or whatever it was or if not they had to pinch one off another crew that wasn’t flying that night. AS: All the way through your tour? SK: Well we had, we didn’t have a lot. We had, I think four different engineers that I can remember. So they were split over twenty nine. Twenty nine ops. One was an Australian. He was pinched off another crew. And our crew, we never had any sickness in our crew at all apart from the engineer which I mentioned. But only once the Irish chap, coming back from Belfast. Coming back from Belfast the boat, the sea was so rough they couldn’t sail the boat and he got back twenty four hours late. Well, we was on that first night so we had to pinch, we had to be given another bomb aimer and they took one from another crew. And he was an observer with the O badge, you know. And he was a good chap. We liked him but he came, he didn’t get through his tour. He failed, failed to return on one occasion. Yeah. Does that answer that question? I don’t know. AS: Absolutely. SK: Yeah. Yeah. AS: What was it like being surrounded Australians? Was it very different from — ? SK: We weren’t surrounded by Australians. I didn’t really, I didn’t really say everything. AS: No. SK: A lot of our leaders when we were first formed up at Scampton we found most of our leaders were New Zealanders. Believe it or not. We had the two Flights. A and B Flight. And we was put into A Flight when we got to Bottesford. And that was Squadron Leader Pape and he was a New Zealander. And then when we formed a third Flight in March we, we had our flight commander was another new Zealander. Flight Lieutenant Field. Squadron Leader Field, sorry. And our, and our officer commander, he was actually RAF. He was, he formed, he made the squadron. There was no doubt about that. He was a wonderful leader and he joined the RAF in about 1936 if my memory’s right. But he was actually born in Brazil and, you know. I think he had, I’m not sure if he had British parents or what but he was actually in the RAF. So there was, we had quite a few new Zealanders there. Not many Canadians although there was a few odd Canadians there. And then to get the squadron going, being a new squadron how they, they sent in from different, other squadrons perhaps some experienced pilots because you can’t, you want, you want some experienced crews around you and with say six, six or eight trips to do, right. And so they were sent in to finish their tours with us. So we didn’t have a lot of Australians there. And when the Australians were coming you’d find a pilot would come with his navigator and then the rest we would make up with British. With Royal Air Force. Right. And then we had one or two gunners coming through on their own and they would join a crew. But also, we got through, we was pushed through our tour very quickly. The RAF crews were. We had no rest at all. You know. It was the hardest work I ever did. But they held back a little bit on the Australian chaps coming. Trying to build up the crew, the Australian crew. The Australian squadron. Right. But I don’t think I ever come across a whole, not in my time, a whole crew of all Australians. But they were, if an Australian pilot come through, looking through the book I can see they had a different colour uniform to us so you could always tell them that they had the darker blue one, you see, the Australians. And the New Zealanders as well. So you can see them when you look at old pictures. You could say oh look he’s got three. There’s three Aussies there. The rest were made up of RAF. That’s how it worked you see. So, but that’s why we were not, got through my first tour rather quickly, you know. AS: Going through at such a rate. SK: Yeah. AS: Did, did you start to feel really worn down by it all or were you glad to be going through it so fast? SK: You didn’t think about it. You were just, it was just what the order was. Whatever the order was you did, you know. It seemed that we was always on you know. Because I mean the weather’s, a lot of people forget what the weather was like. The weather we had in the war or the war winters were very hard. Very hard winters. AS: That, that actually touches on something I’d like to talk about. SK: Yeah. Yeah. AS: Did you have any experience of FIDO or the emergency landing grounds? SK: I didn’t have it myself. There was three places in the country wasn’t there had them? One was at Manston and another one was in Suffolk. AS: Woodbridge. SK: Woodbridge. Yes. The other one was further up country wasn’t it? Was it in Yorkshire? But there was three in the country there. No. I never had. Never had any experience of that. I’ve spoken to. I did speak to some chaps that landed in it, you know. It’s not — you know, a dicey thing to land in. Flames burning both sides of you, you know. Makes the runway look quite small, you know when you’re coming in, you know. AS: On your, on your first tour as you say the weather could close in. SK: Yeah. Yeah. AS: Close down. AS: What was it like coming back when the weather had closed in? SK: Well Bottesford was in what did they called it? The Vale of Belvoir was it? JM: Belvoir. SK: Belvoir. In the Vale of Belvoir right. Right. And it was a frost hollow. So it wasn’t so bad. It wasn’t too bad in the middle of the winter because our take off times you had more darkness. Put it that way. We were controlled by the moon. We wanted darkness. Right. And, but sometimes the moon would be coming up before you got back or something like that you know. So we were controlled. What was the actual question you asked me? AS: What was it like when you came back to find the fog had come in or — ? SK: Oh yes. Well, yes. Well, it was a frost hollow there so, but most mists like we’ve had recently actually they’d come in in the late hours of the night, you know they form. And then you’ve got them at dawn break, you know. And it wasn’t until you got shorter night hours when you’re coming back at daybreak perhaps or, you know, just prior to then and then it was a bit difficult. But only once did we get diverted. And we got diverted, it’s a long story there [laughs] but we’d done a long trip. That was, I’m pretty sure that was the time we went to the Skoda works down in Czechoslovakia and we, we found that quite a hard trip. Very hard for the gunners. Because, you see, I used to, if you were in the flak belts and you got ack-ack flying around you. I used to think you were better off if you were in the pitch dark because it got so intense looking out for fighters. It was, you know. And you gained experience to know how to [pause] you could smell danger by what was going on around you, you know. And we always had a good understanding. We used to, especially in the first crew because we were all sergeants in the first group. Just sergeants. In the second crew we had four officers and three sergeants. It wasn’t quite so cosy if you know what I mean there. We couldn’t do our crew meetings sitting on our beds. We used to have crew meetings after. The next day and, and if anything we could have improved on, you know. We all had our say and all that. And you could, there was lots of little things you could do to save your skin, I suppose, you know. That sort of thing. Because, you know, you’re flying in a block. You’re not flying in formation. It’s a block. It’s, you can get statistics where you can get the actual measurements. It’s a wide block and it’s that deep and you’re flying as a gaggle anyhow, right. And the reason it was like that, deep like that was because you got at the time on that first tour the Wellingtons were still flying. They could only convert them to Lancasters as the Lancasters became available. And you had, shall we say over a target you’d have the Wellingtons at fourteen thousand feet. You’d have the Stirlings at sixteen. Halifax at eighteen. And we’d try to get to twenty if we could but we couldn’t always get there but you know it just depends on the weather. So that, that’s why you got the depths of it like that. So then they used to stagger it a bit so you weren’t dropping bombs on the ones underneath you and things like that. But when you’re flying at night and your night vision was most important to you for gunners. And there’s always a dark side to the sky. There’s always a dark side. However pitch dark it is one side is darker than the other. And it’s nearly always darker underneath for a start and then the south was nearly always the darker than the north. Right. Because if you got the stars you don’t realise how brilliant the stars can be. Right. So we always used to think if we’d got a long leg to fly on, flying in this gaggle, this stream which I’d say to the skipper, you know, we had a message to say creep over to the, if that was the stream going through there and the dark side was this side shall we say we’d creep over a little bit this way. Right. We’re still in the gaggle but we’d creep over a little bit this way. So the track would be down the middle. Right. But we’d go over to this side. Not that side. So you’ve less chance of being seen. Right. So there was all them little things you learned. You weren’t taught. You couldn’t be taught operational flying. You just had to grin and bear it and learn it yourself. And the only way you learned it was by discussions afterwards, you know and by little tiny things to say how you’d go about it. AS: What was your attitude, or your skipper’s attitude to weaving? Did — SK: Oh yeah. In, in those days you did weave. You weaved a lot and of course it was it was so, so a gunner couldn’t get his bearing on you. Because, you know it only takes two seconds to shoot you down. Two seconds. And you’ve got to be, if you’re on a eight or nine hour flight. Long flights in the winter. It’s a lot, a lot of time that’s going on there you know. So — AS: Did, did you, did you ever have any exposure to wakey wakey pills? SK: Yeah. AS: To keep you awake. SK: Oh yeah. I used to take them. If it was only, if it was up to the Ruhr or places like that according to your, you worked out you was given your briefing to, to know what routes because you didn’t go just straight there and back. You had different ways to, tactics to do. You had to fly on. And oh I’ve lost track now. AS: Wakey wakey pills. SK: Oh wakey wakey pills. Yes. So going to the Ruhr it could be four hours. It could be six hours. Right. So, and so possibly not then but if you were going further afield where you’ve got an eight hours, anything over a seven hour trip you needed something to keep awake. But you’ve got to realise you’ve been at work since 8 o’clock in the morning. Right. You’ve been up since 8 o’clock in the morning. You’ve been to a meal and from half past nine that morning you started work. You had your, you’d know by 11 o’clock whether you was on that night. Right. And then you had things to do like we always went out to the aircraft. You’d find what aircraft you’d got. We didn’t have regular aircraft. You had to fly on what was available. I think I worked it out, I think it was fourteen different aircraft we flew in in twenty nine trips. I think it was fourteen. So you didn’t have a regular aircraft so you always went out there to have a look but you got to know aircraft. You know. Perhaps you might do a training trip in one because training never stopped. So if you was on that night you’d have to go out there and you’d look at it and make sure the turret, had it been serviced? You know. Check on it. Make sure the armourers hadn’t missed anything because they were hard pressed and then also give, give, of course we had no Perspex in the front. We had a canopy over the top. Give it a clean. A bit of a sides we had so clean that up. And then you had to do a night flying test. So that had to take place between a bit before you went for briefing or then you would have your briefing. Mostly you would have a meal beforehand. You know, ,a flying meal beforehand. Then you got your briefing. Sometimes it was the other way around accordingly, you know, how it worked out. So there was no, there was never any spare time. And if you weren’t on that night you’re bound to have a flying exercise to do. We never, exercises never stopped. There was always new equipment coming out that some training had to be done on. You were, you’d be put on air firing. We used to, we used to go to, that’s Lincolnshire. Wainfleet. The Wainfleet. AS: Wainfleet ranges. Yeah. SK: That range there. And we used to drop our eleven pound smoke bombs from twenty thousand feet onto a target down below. You had to pre-book it, you know and arrange your time and then you were, you were given a slot to bomb at, you know. And then we had gunnery places I told you. Where did we used to go? We went, we had gunnery exercises. Perhaps we went to Mablethorpe then. I don’t think so. I don’t know where we went. I can’t think but there was always exercises right to even if you’ve only got one trip to have done you were still given exercises to do and you were kept busy because it took your mind off any casualties you’d had. That’s what it was done for. AS: Yeah. SK: You were never, you’d never get any time to rest at all but then occasionally a squadron would be given perhaps a forty eight hour stand down. And that’s when it was, well that’s right, you know. You got the message. It was good then. The squadron would be stood down. It gives the squadron time to recover, you know. So that’s that. So anything you want to ask me now? AS: Yeah. On the wakey wakey pills still. SK: Oh the wakey wakey. I didn’t say that. So I used to take them if it was a long trip but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t take them until after we’d done the bombing. Then you’ve got to be, the way home is always worse than the way out, you know. That’s the more dangerous place, coming home. More dangerous is coming back because they could be waiting for you. Especially if it was a long trip because they’d had time to go down, refuel and come up again. So I used to take the wakey wakey pills and I found out they used to make you quite tired for a quarter of an hour after you took them. Whether it was the thought of it or not I don’t know but I thought they always made me tired first. But then they did help you to keep yourself awake because it’s no good falling asleep for a time because it was very unsociable hours we were working and we worked long hours you know. And you could only do it if you were young, you know. And of course we were all young lads, you see. So. AS: What, what was, I knew they were all different but can you give me an idea of what the debriefing was like afterwards? SK: Debriefing. Yeah. It varied, I think on squadrons because some said when they come back they used to have a tot of rum and things like that but I don’t think we ever had that. But a cup of tea was more, was better than anything else. Of course when you, when you’ve only done one or two trips you want to keep talking about it, you know. You think, you know, fancy I’ve done that, you know and so on, you’d talk about that. But we, certainly that was one of the first things we got out in our crew is we’ve got to get to bed and forget what’s happened because we might be on the next night. Because your entire, you’d be two nights on and one night off. That’s how it was going. You weren’t always given that. You couldn’t be. But you had to be prepared for that. So from touch down we aimed to get to bed within, into our bunks in two hours. And if we could do it in two hours we were lucky. You know, we’d done well. And the initial crews, the early crews, the ones in the earliest stages would be three or four hours getting to bed, you know. And then that affected them the next day. So you’ve got to, you’d get out your aircraft, you wait for transport. Transport was good. They were nearly always waiting for you. You’d get back to the locker room. You’ve got to stow your gear and it’s no good being excited about it. I know it did happen to some of them that they were so thankful they got back they took the gear off and just threw it in the locker. But the most important thing is, especially the gunners is you have to hang up your suit, your electric suit and see that it’s in your locker. You had long lockers. And it aired in your locker. See. Because any dampness you’d get a short in it you see. AS: Yeah. SK: So we always made sure that we got [pause] got into our, into the locker room and stowed all our kit away properly, you know. And then you go to debriefing and when you get to debriefing it depends who’s in front of you. You know. If you had a lot, a lot of bombers on that night there’s only perhaps two or three intelligence officers there to debrief you. Right. So you walk in and the first thing you look for — whose got the tea? You know. And then there would be some WAAFs there that would bring you a cup of tea. So you had a cup of tea and you might, I don’t know whether, there was nothing to eat. You just had this tea. Two mugs of tea would go down that quick. And then if you’re lucky you’d go straight in but if not you’ve got to wait till your, a table’s available for you to sit down. And then debriefing of course. They debrief the pilot and the navigator. The navigator’s the one they’re debriefing really, with the pilot as well because the navigator has got a complete log of everything that has gone on. What you’ve got to remember is the moment you took off every one of those aircraft flying was a separate unit. No one knew what, what he was doing or what’s happening in that aircraft until he came back over base. They didn’t know where he was or anything. So the navigator had a complete log of everything that went on in the aircraft. Right. Just like a ships log. And we were closer to the navy than we were to the army although we came out of the army originally. Right. So we used to get the debriefing done and then you go for your meal. Right. Yeah. Your meal. And you always had an egg when you came back. You always found an egg. It was wonderful just to have an egg you know and that. And then, and when we was at Bottesford after we’d come out the mess there we had at least a half mile to walk back to the billet because we were dispersed. We was right out in the sticks. It might, it seemed longer than that to me but there was only just a small road to go down. Just enough to carry a van down you know. There were no big lorries in them days much. And then that’s what we tried to do. To try to get back to our billet within two hours. So is that the answer? Is that alright? AS: Brilliant. SK: Ok. AS: Wonderful. SK: Any more questions? AS: I have hundreds of questions, Sidney. SK: Oh [laughs] AS: A couple more perhaps. Did, did you, because you are a man who survived two tours of operations. SK: Yeah. AS: At different times of the war. SK: Yeah. AS: Did you notice a real difference in how you operated between the first tour and the second tour? SK: Yeah. Oh yes. Of course. Yes, it did. That’s why we had, that’s why we had to go on to a refresher course. As I said when, we crewed up but as a crew we had to go on to a refreshing course. And we did all sorts of courses. We was, I don’t know how long they were for. I’d have to check my logbook really but I think, I think it might have been even two months before we operated you know because first, navigational aids were coming through. Different navigational aids and so on. And your, your tactics were different, you know. Your tactics were different. You had to keep altering them all the time, you know. So yes, there was a big difference. Yeah. Yeah. And of course then they made more, more officers were coming through in crews and that’s what split crews. When you was all sergeants you were one unit together but when you had officers, not that we didn’t mix together but you had to, you couldn’t, you had to live apart. You didn’t live together. You lived apart. You ate apart and so on. Whereas when we were sergeants everything was done together. You was just a little unit on your own, you know. AS: Well it seems from, from what you’ve said about your first crew at least that you were a very tight knit, staying alive club. That’s what you wanted to do. SK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. AS: Put a lot of — SK: We got good results and all. We had some very good results. I remember when we didn’t know we’d finished because you were supposed to do thirty trips. Right. But our pilot had done one second dickie trip. Right. He did it with our squadron leader and he did it to Essen. Because you know what they say? When we, when we was at OTU and people used to come, come to you and say to you at OTU and say, ‘What’s it like flying on ops?’ You haven’t got an answer. You’ve got to find out for yourself. We used to say, ‘When you’ve got Essen in your logbook you’ll know what it’s like.’ That was the answer, you know. So Essen was the most heavily defended target in the Ruhr. Where the Krupps works were. And getting in and out was, you know, it seemed almost impossible. It was amazing how you got through. So that’s what we, that was our answer when we were screen gunners to tell them. Not very helpful but you couldn’t, you can’t teach them. You can’t teach them operational flying. You can teach them everything else but, you know because it was a different feeling. It’s a fear factor comes into it you see. How do you react? You know. There’s somebody there is trying to blow you out of the sky. Another fighter coming up trying to set you alight and blow you to pieces you see. So it’s, it was a fear factor there you know and people act differently, you know. And one never knows, you know. I can tell you a little story when I was [pause] is it alright if I carry on? When I was at ITW down at St Leonards we’d finished our course. Wait a minute. Where was I going to get to, to tell you? We finished our course. Oh wait a minute. I’ve forgotten what I was going to say now. What was we talking about? AS: We, we were talking about the fear factor. And you were going to tell me a story. SK: Oh. A story. Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. The fear factor. Yeah. Right. Got it. Well we had to wait a long time down at ITW down at, down in Eastbourne. And they said it’s all, it’s been posted. ITV has been posted. And we was put on a train at 7 o’clock in the morning. We never knew where we were going. And we finished up in Bridlington, you see, that’s Yorkshire. And then we passed our course there and [pause] what was the question again? AS: We were talking about the fear factor. SK: Fear factor. Fear factor. AS: And how people react. Yeah. SK: Yeah. How people react. The fear factor. Yeah. And oh yes while we was there so they couldn’t, they couldn’t find anywhere to train. The air gunners couldn’t find anywhere else to go forward. We had to wait for our tour because the weather was so bad they couldn’t get through to flying. So we had several weeks there doing different things, sort of thing, you know. And so the fear factor. I keep wandering off don’t I? The fear factor is — AS: We can come back to that if you like. SK: No. Wait a minute. The fear factor was that I thought to myself when you, when you sign on as aircrew you haven’t got any knowledge or any idea of what it’s like to fly. None of us had ever been, had had our feet off the ground. We didn’t know what it was like to fly. So I thought to myself a lot of people coming in how are people going to cope with it? Would they be airsick? You see. Well airsickness is not like seasickness. But airsickness is only, you only get airsickness if you’re, you know, doing rough flying. But when it comes to flying over enemy territory you get this fear factor, you see. So they thought well these chaps have never been off the ground. We’d better give them a test to see how they cope with flying. So we was at Bridlington, on the seafront and they decided, ‘We’ll put them through an air sickness test.’ And they got some swings what they had in the fairgrounds right. Big swings. And they put some boards along the top of them and you had to like, you laid down on the board, on the board. And then some of the course there had to keep these thing going, you know. And you had to get the thing so it went perpendicular. Like that. And you had to, to go for twenty minutes. And I mean, a lot of boffins come down and the boffins were standing at the side of us and asking us questions. They were standing here. So as we went up and down they spoke to you as you went up past, you see, ‘How do you feel?’ ‘Do you feel ill?’ ‘Would you like fish and chips?’ ‘What did you have for lunch,’ you know. Trying to make you feel sick. Right. And so this was all done on Bridlington sea front and I often thought to myself if any of the locals had seen us, ‘With a war going on what are these chaps doing having fun down there?’ See. So that’s, they did bring out the airsickness ‘cause they couldn’t tell. Some chaps did get sick in the air and its just the fear factor, you know. The fear factor of what might be ahead of them. They didn’t know you see. So they wanted to find out if there was any way they could train them but I’m sure that the tests they put us through was far greater than they would have been in reality like, you see. AS: It’s a marvellous, marvellous story. SK: Yeah. AS: The fear. SK: I passed my test by the way on that screening. AS: Of course. Of course. But the fears that one had on, on operations. What, what was the greatest enemy do you think? Was it the flak or the fighters or the weather? SK: Well both. Well all. There was three things you mentioned there, they’re all. It just depends at the time doesn’t it? You know. It’s, they’re all, all. Which is the worst? Well, I always thought, as I mentioned before fighters I always thought were the worst for me as a gunner because with the shells bombing around you, you know there’s no fighters there. That’s the [laughs] that’s the way I looked at it right. And my job in the back there was to make sure a fighter didn’t creep up on us you know because the German tactics changed as well as ours. And their approach to, their approach to attacking us changed. Where in the, on the first tour they all attacked us from behind, underneath and just came up to us and fired from the back. Right. Aiming at the rear gunner and the aircraft. Right. Between my tours they did the Peenemunde raid. Right. And that’s the first time the Germans used a new system. They called it the sugar music. Sugar music. I think that’s what they called it. They, they used to have a gunner in the night fighter and he was like we were. Firing from a swivel. From a swivel or a turret, you know. At us. Then they thought, well why don’t we have a, rather like the Spitfires had, fixed guns. So they fixed a gun at a thirty degree angle. Firing at that angle upwards. Right. And the pilot could fire it. Right. That’s what they did. So they used a different tactic. They’d fly underneath you where it was always darkest and then when they got underneath they used to lift up. Lift themselves up. They were mostly JU88s they weren’t fast like Spitfires or anything like that but they were just a bit faster than the Lancaster so they could keep up with you, overtake you, but they used to the throttle back and then when they got their gun right they’re aiming for your petrol tanks between the two engines. Right. And that’s how we lost so many through firing. And that started between our tours so tactics had to alter. But Air Ministry never told us about that. We never knew that. Except that we were getting, we were seeing more flamers going down. Set alight by flame. Been set alight. When there’s no ack-ack around about it must be a fighter you see. So you sort of realise something was going on but they never told us and I never knew about these guns until after the war finished. Amazing really. What I, they had the idea what you don’t know about you don’t worry about I suppose. You see. AS: [unclear ] what, as for both of your crews really was your tactic to just not open fire if you saw somebody? SK: I I I believed in that. I felt, you see, according to how light it was how far could you see? Right. Guns were harmonised. The four guns. Usually about two hundred and fifty yards right. So they were all supposed to hit on another at two hundred and fifty yards. Right. But sometimes you wouldn’t see an aircraft at that, not [pause] because he’s what, three times smaller than you are. He’s flying in the dark. You’re flying, so he can see you and he can see you and he can see your exhaust pipes just glowing red, you know. If he got in a certain position he could see them. So, you know, it’s — yeah where was I again? AS: Whether or not you opened fire if you saw one. SK: Oh yes. Whether I opened fire. Yeah. So I would think, it might have been, you don’t want to make a fight with him. You want to keep away from him. And my idea was if you, you could sense something and if you had any, you’d say to the pilot something like, are we, ‘Get to the darkest side you can,’ you know in as few words as we can. It don’t, ‘It don’t look right.’ ‘Things don’t look right,’ you know. So that, and then if they were like that, they were looking for simple targets. If they could find a crew that didn’t respond to anything you know that’s the one they’d go for, you see. So it was just, just a knowledge at the time really. I suppose. You know. AS: When you’re flying backwards over a target that’s, that’s been bombed could you, did you look away? Could you preserve your night vision? SK: I tried, the most important, the thing you were trying to do is don’t look at the target. Because that’s the only time it’s lighter underneath. Right. But avoid looking at the target. Don’t spoil your night vision. We had night vision training and it takes full twenty minutes to get your full night vision, you know. Twenty minutes. I know you can improve it in ten or something like that but, but it’s a full, full twenty minutes to get your full night vision and one flash of light can spoil it you see. And that’s another thing you didn’t want to do. So it’s very tempting to look to see where your bombs are falling, you know but I used to look away. And that’s the only time you looked upwards instead of downwards you know. Or sideways, you know. But that’s something you had to learn to do. AS: Did you test fire your guns? SK: In, in the very early stages we were allowed to do it when you were over, over the sea. Right. And then it got stopped doing it because they said there was a danger that you might give your position away and there was a danger that other aircraft might be not too far away from you. And so on. And they said, ‘No. You’re not to do it anymore.’ But we used to do. Test them. Just a short burst and so on but that got stopped. That was an order that came through to stop. So — AS: Could you, I mean it’s a bit of a silly question because it depends to a great extent on how dark the sky was. But could you often see many other aircraft? SK: Yes. Oh yes. AS: Over the target? Or — SK: Oh over the target you wonder where they all come from. You thought you was all alone. But when you were over the target aircraft were everywhere, you know. Above you. Below you. A pilot was always looking. You don’t want to see somebody with the bomb doors open just above you, you know. But yes its — yes it’s [pause] Ok? AS: Yeah. As a crew did you ever talk about what you were doing? About the fact that you were bombing the enemy or did you just treat it as a job and just get on with it. SK: Well it was a job of work. A job you were trained to do. It’s [pause] it’s something that we were right to do. And we had, we had targets to, we had targets to officially aim for, you know. But when you’re fighting an enemy things can go wrong, you know. I mean they had the problem of creep back. Creep back was where you, if you had a target area there and it was marked by the Pathfinders and then the bombers coming in and then they’re getting knocked about a bit. They let the bombs go a bit quicker you know. That sort of thing you know. So they used to put tactics. You’d put your, go forward, mark the forward there to allow for the creep back. You see. There was all things like that. But we were given a job to do and we thought it was the right job to do, you see. Yeah. AS: And you said towards the end of the first part of the interview that you were demobbed and didn’t really think about it. SK: We switched off. AS: Yeah. SK: It’s what happened. It’s what happened with the government and everything. They wanted everybody to forget everything. It’s like they destroyed all the aircraft. You know. All these aircraft we had. They were just got rid of them and so on and made you forget. That’s why they said on the stations what I said, got to bring sport back. They had sport everything. You’ve got to do. Play cricket. You’ve got to play football. There’s badminton, you know. And there was running races. Everybody had to be in to sport you see because that’s what the, that’s what the Services were before the war you see. So that’s you had a, you forgot all about. In fact my daughters, I’ve got three daughters, I don’t think they know much about what I did until they read the book. So there we are. AS: Well, hopefully we’ve got a tape as well. One, one final question if I may and it’s not about your aircrew duties. It’s when you did aerodrome control. And I have a reason for this because my mum used to do it as well. SK: Oh yes. AS: What was your — SK: She’d be in flying control. AS: She was in flying control. SK: Yes. Yes. I was in the caravan at the end of the runway. AS: Oh Ok. SK: Yeah. AS: So, what did your duties entail? SK: Right. As flying control. First of all you logged every aircraft as they took off and when they landed and you brought them on to the runway with an Aldis lamp and gave them permission to take off and then when they were landing, with your binoculars you’ve checked that their wheels are down properly. That their tyres looked in good nick and so on and also to recognise the aircraft as its coming to land and so on, you know. So that’s what your duties were. Yeah. AS: Brilliant. Thank you. SK: I’ve got a little bit about [pause] I’ll show you this then because I suppose you’ll want to finish then I’ll have said enough. I’ll show you one other thing. I think you’ll be able to keep it if I can show you something. Are you alright for time? AS: I I have years for this, Sidney. SK: Oh alright. Now where is it? [Pause. Shuffling papers] SK: Now where is it? No. That’s not it [pause] This was a battle order when we went to the Skoda works. Right. AS: At Pilsen, yeah. SK: At Pilsen. And that’s when we got diverted to Boscombe Down. I told you the one occasion. AS: Yeah. SK: We got diverted to Boscombe Down and our squadron, which is 5 Group, right. And a squadron should only be two Flights. And a squadron should be six aircraft to a Flight. So you should have twelve aircraft. But you had extra aircraft so you got six serviceable. Right. Well, when the war was going on and Bomber Command was building they formed, our squadron formed a third flight. Right. C Flight. AS: Yeah. SK: And we was in A flight when we were at the start. And then when it got to [pause] when it got to, they wanted to start a third Flight it was C Flight and the idea of that was how you build a new squadron is you build it up to three Flights and then when you’re going and alright and you’ve got, that’s eighteen aircraft and you’ve got two or three spares. Then you can take that flight away and it starts a new squadron. AS: Yeah. SK: But then you go back to your two flights. Well this time we was up to three Flights because we found out the first, it was the 1st of March, I think, we started our C Flight on our squadron there. And this was the 16th 17th of April right. And this is when we, it’s —these are all the pilots. There’s us up there. The other two pilots with us — one was on leave and Bally was the other that came, just followed us off here. That’s our wing commander. He was on that night. Going down, Mackenzie [pause] No. Stuart was RAAF. You asked about that. AS: Yeah. SK: Tillerson. Desmond. All RAF. Wilson. All RAAF I should say. AS: Yeah. SK: Sinclair. Wilson again. There was two Wilsons on our squadron. And Parsons. And Manifold. So by that time the captains were getting more, more Australians but we were — but they had RAF in their crews. Right. And this is the number of ops that crew had done. There. That’s the time they took off. The time they bombed. The height they bombed at. AS: Six thousand feet. SK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was our height to bomb at because there was nobody there. We came down to that height to bomb because there were no defences there and yet we had the hardest trip coming back then ever. That’s the time we landed. We diverted, we got the diversion call come when we was crossing the sea. I know we were just crossing the French coast on our way back. I could go on forever. Because when we was at Bottesford you have to put me back on track in a minute, when we was at Bottesford we were, the station was confined to barracks because we had a Diphtheria scare on, on the squadron and they confined everyone to barracks. No one to leave. But we were able to fly on ops. And when we when we, when we landed at Boscombe Down they knew all about it so the MO had phoned through and said, ‘They’re aliens,' you know. That sort of thing. ‘You’ve got to be careful with them.’ So we were sent up to they wouldn’t allow us in the mess. They found us empty huts and we had to lay down and they found us some, what we called biscuits you know to lay on. Mattresses. And we laid down on them and they rustled up some — because Boscombe down was an experimental station for the RAF. Right. And it was only a grass airfield but that was in Hampshire. And they had to get — we lost two aircraft that night. Stuart. And where’s the other one? Failed to return. One there. Oh up here. “And diverted to Boscombe Down in Wiltshire on return as Bottesford was fog bound.” What I mentioned before. We lost thirty five aircraft. Bomber Command lost thirty eight aircraft from this raid and yet there was no defences at the target. A hundred and ninety nine were killed in action. Fifty two prisoners of war and thirteen, there were thirteen evaders. Right. How they — they must have come down in France somewhere and managed to get back through Spain I should think. AS: So you could have dropped some aircrew with Diphtheria into the prisoner of war camp. SK: Yes. We were, we were all the what, you know — what do you call it? They hadn’t got enough of the, would it be serum or something? JM: Oh No. No. Inoculations. SK: Inoculations. They hadn’t got enough of them, you see. But when you get a big outbreak like that and so they, they was able to test you to see whether you were positive or negative or something. Do they scratch you or something? I don’t know how they do it, put it like that. But our crew was alright but then we were poorly we were still allowed to fly. And the MO at briefing said to us that night, he said, ‘If any of you unfortunately crash and come down in German you must tell them that you are Diphtheria carriers.’ We said, ‘Blimey we wouldn’t tell them that,’ [laughs] You’re asking for a bullet in your head straight away, aren’t you? You know [laughs] So we didn’t agree with the MO one bit. I remember that. So you can keep this bit if you like. AS: Thank you. JM: Well, that’s not in the book is it? It’s not subject to copyright? SK: I don’t know. Maybe. Yeah but — JM: Oh. SK: Yeah. JM: In which case you can’t digitise that I’m afraid. AS: Ok. We can — SK: Well you can have a look at it anyway. AS: We can sort that out. SK: You must sort it out. I don’t know. AS: What interests me on there as well. SK: Yeah. AS: Is two things. One — did you climb back to height after you’d bombed? SK: What? In this? On this one. Yeah. AS: On that one. Yeah. SK: You would have done. Yes. AS: And the “Froth Blower” on there. The code name. Is that the squadron or the target code name? SK: That. No. That would be the target code name you see. “Froth Blower.” Yeah. Yes. AS: Ok. SK: I think that would be in the book there. But you see how many aircraft we put up there? And look. They can’t beat that now. We took off at minute intervals. AS: Yeah. SK: Minute intervals. And we got fourteen up there till this last one. And I remember Manifold. He was an Aussie but he went on and he did fifty trips. He finished his tour on fifty and he went on to Pathfinders afterwards and he [pause] he, when he went to start his aircraft one engine wouldn’t start. And they had to rush around and take the spare one standing by. So he lost fifteen minutes or whatever it was. But that’s, that was, that’s good flying control. That was a good bloke at the end of the runway did that one. AS: Fast on the finger. SK: Yeah. Yeah. Getting them all on there. To get heavy aircraft down at the end of the runway like that, you know. AS: So at least on that squadron if you had one you’d have a standby aircraft fully fuelled and fully bombed. SK: You would try to. It didn’t always happen. But there was at that time. At that time there was. Yeah. Yeah. I did a little thing here I wrote down. I think I’ve got it here somewhere. I’m sure I’ve got it here. Printed out. Perhaps I haven’t got it. [Pause. Shuffling papers] AS: Do you know how long we’ve been talking for? SK: No. JM: Two hours. AS: Nearly two hours. SK: Oh I’m sorry. AS: No. Not at all. Don’t apologise. It’s wonderful. SK: [unclear ] AS: I was just saying shall we, shall we draw stumps there. At least for the tape. SK: Yeah. Yeah. AS: And maybe we can do another. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sidney Knott Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Adam Sutch Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-10-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AKnottS151001 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:51:57 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource Sidney Knott was from Leigh-on-Sea and recalls the day, with invasion apparently imminent, that signs were put up on the local shops advising people that they had to be ready to move within an hour and to take only one suitcase with them. Sidney’s father had been injured several times during the First World War and advised his son to join the RAF rather than the army. Sidney had an interrupted education so was advised he would be accepted for general duties. He was posted to Blickling Hall where he was on crash duty but later re-mustered as an air gunner. Initially he was posted with 467 Squadron based at RAF Bottesford. His was the first crew to complete a full tour on the squadron. After his tour he was posted to RAF Silverstone. He was then approached to join a new squadron and do a further tour of operations. His crew joined 582 Squadron, Pathfinders based at RAF Little Staughton. He completed 64 operations in both tours. He talks about the fear factor of operations, the instinct over the target looking out for threats and coping with the tiredness. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Lincolnshire England--Norfolk Blickling Hall (England) Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1940 1941 1944 17 OTU 467 Squadron 582 Squadron air gunner aircrew animal bombing debriefing fear ground personnel intelligence officer Lancaster Manchester military service conditions Operational Training Unit Pathfinders RAF Bottesford RAF Finningley RAF Little Staughton RAF Manby RAF Scampton RAF Silverstone RAF Turweston RAF Wainfleet RAF Woodhall Spa training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/931/11289/ALonghurstWJ180407.1.mp3 424c626566a83d4f46af2bc68695d0e3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Longhurst, William Joseph W J Longhurst Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Bill Longhurst (b.1924, 1874159 Royal Air Force). He served as a flight mechanic with 620 squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Longhurst, WJ Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document DB: This is Denise Boneham and today I am interviewing William, Bill Longhurst, and today’s date is the 7th of April 2018 and it is currently 14.10. Bill, would you like to tell me a little bit about your life involved with the RAF? BL: Certainly. Certainly, I volunteered for the RAF when I was just turned seventeen and a half, because I didn’t want to go in the Army. I was, had been in the Air Defence Cadet Corps, 1552 Squadron, Hackney Wick for two years and had decided that that’s where I would like to go, so when I got, I went to Euston Road Recruitment Centre, volunteered, had my medical and was awaiting to hear, my calling up, but before I got my calling up for the RAF I had a calling up paper for the army, or so I thought for the army. When I got to the Territorial Centre at Leytonstone after I had a medical, I went to see the reception, reception party there and I said, ‘could you tell me why I’ve been, received these calling up papers to come here?’ They said, ‘well, because you have your calling up for the army.’ I said, ‘Oh well I’m not,’ I said, ‘I’ve already volunteered for the RAF.’ He said, ‘have you been, got your papers?’ So I said, ’No.’ So he said, ‘well evidently they don’t want you.’ So I got a bit annoyed at that and thought what could I do? Well I walked away from the person interviewing me and I got called by one of the other interviewers, which was the second one along, and he called me over and he said, ‘there is an RAF officer along the corridor, about the fourth door on the left,’ he said, ‘go and, go along there,’ he said, ‘knock at the door and have a chat with him.’ Which I did. When I went along and knocked on the door and was asked to go in. I said sure enough I said there was a pilot officer sitting at the desk and he said,’ Can I help you?’ and I said, ‘yes, very much.’ I said, ‘because I volunteered for the RAF, I said, ‘I’ve been in the Air Defence Cadet Corps, which is changed to the Air Training Corps,’ I said, ‘and they’ve just told me now that I’ve been called up for the army.’ So he said, ‘that’s’ ridiculous, we can’t have that can we? We can’t lose someone like yourself.’ So he took full particulars and sure enough, I got my call up papers for the RAF. I, when I called up, I said, I called up and had to go to Bedford, and Cardington at Bedford, and when we got there, I said most of the people who lived around London I said, were called up and put in the billets. And the corporal come along, sorted us out in groups and we was marched off to get kitted out, with a greatcoat only. And I thought well that looks funny, this thing, this greatcoat fitted me twice! So I said, I said to the chap ‘this not my greatcoat surely!’ ‘Don’t worry.’ He said’ ‘you’re only going to get your photograph taken. So the next thing we did, we went along, and the chap draw the number, he had the one, he drew my number 187459 and I had to carry this piece of board, I said and sat down and do me greatcoat up, and I said you know I looked ridic, stuck, had a big greatcoat. Anyway, held the number in front and was told you know, no smiling, just look straight ahead. The photograph was taken and that was that, that was my first day at Cardington. On the evening, the chap came along, and was a sergeant this time, and he said, ‘right,’ he says, ‘you won’t be, tomorrow morning,’ he said, ‘you’ll be leaving here,’ he said, ‘so we’ll be kitting you out first,’ he said, then ‘with the kit,’ he said, ‘and you’ll be boarding the train which goes from the, there’s a halt specially for recruits.’ And he said, ‘by the way anybody live in London?’ He said, ‘there’s a poss’, oh everybody put their hand up, I said that’s great he said where’s the aerodrome you’d like to be? Well, being I lived in east London, I thought Hornchurch. I said, ‘I’d like to be at Hornchurch.’ There’s another couple of chaps also wanted and they were all saying all sorts of aerodromes which surrounded London, couple of you’s going to be very lucky then tomorrow. So the next morning when we rose, we got kit and then we marched on to the square which was quite close to where the halt was, and the train came in and eventually we climbed aboard the train and off we took. All the names of the stations during the war was taken down, so we didn’t know which way, where we were going, so we went to the, went away from the halt and on to the main line station and we started heading away to wherever we were destined to stop. We carried on along the track for some miles but no one could see or could remember which way we were going, [cough] and eventually one of the chaps turned round and said, ‘I’m afraid we’re not going towards London at all, we’re away somewhere else.’ So we all guessing, had a guessing game until finally [emphasis] we pulled in to Skegness. Now Skegness was a, when we got off the train there we were then marched straight away to have a meal and when we’d had our meal, we had to then form up outside and the corporal was there, they were drill corporals, they picked us, sorted us into sections and we were marched off to various places were our billets. Now the first ones that we went to was in Drummond Road in Skegness and that was a four-storey house, ex, people, you know, people that went there for holidays, right next to a place called the Arcadia: that was a theatre. And that’s where we were until half way through our training when we was transferred round on to the Windsor Hotel which was on the sea front. Now that was very good there, very good, big rooms and we were in the front room down stairs which was evidently a dining room which had beds in this time. [cough] We had these, our vaccinations and other, other inoculations and I unfortunately got vaccine fever and I was confined for twenty four hours, or sorry forty eight hours, excused duty, which one of the members had to bring back my food because I was confined to beds for forty eight hours. That they didn’t like very much! About three days later we had our, we did a stint of drill on the sea front, different things, doing this drill, we were then told to go indoors, change for PT, PE, well when we get inside everybody is shouting and talking, you know, getting ready to go. Unfortunately we had no blinds to pull and curtains to close, and two WAAFs was walking by, happened to stop outside the door, window, and everybody says oh there’s a couple of WAAFs out there and we said you know, everybody was saying, ‘oy oy, go on, move along, move along,’ because we were in a state of undress, some of us. So a sergeant suddenly walked through the front door, and he said, came in and he says, ‘right you lot,’ he says, ‘you’re on cookhouse fatigue tonight.’ So he says, ‘no need for that rumpus, you’re only attracting more attention.’ So that was that. So we ended up in the cookhouse which was unfortunate for me because I do not like cheese, no way do I like cheese and what we had for tea that night was toasted, sorry, fried bread with fried cheese on the top of it. So it was, well I had the job of washing all the trays out, that was my job. The only thing I had to eat that day was scrape the cheese off the fried bread and ate the fried bread: that was it, so that wasn’t very good at all. Right, so, the training was very good, and Alvar Lidell was a radio commentator, talking on the news on the BBC. Now he happened to be called up at the same time as we were, and in the paper a couple of days later it said: “Alvar Lidell is in Skegness. This is Alvar Lidell, a photograph of him and this is the square and Alvar Lidell bashing it.” Because when he used to announce on the BBC he used to say, ‘this is the news and Alvar Lidell reading it.’ The next thing I was I went on leave from, after did my infantry training and I went on leave and after that, I had my seven days leave I was posted to RAF Filton as a trainee mechanic. We had two Blenheims on this station at Filton, which is a, belongs really to the RAF and the Bristol Aircraft Company. Now we had two WAAF flight mechanics at the time, and most of the time I did more or less things that they asked me to do, different things, and if they wanted help, anything shape or form, I used to help them to do that. I used to have to prime the engines which are underneath the engine lascelles and they used to have the trolley action, tell the pilot, the other one used to tell the pilot when he’d to turn the props. So, sometimes they were, it was okay and sometimes it was a bit dodgy because, when they used to prime the aircraft, where you pushed the priming pump in it used to push petrol into the spider which was on the top of the cylinders and the pilot at the same time was told to turn the propellers to suck the petrol up into the engines and switch the switches on, make them start. Sometimes they’d start straight away and other times they used to just bang away and it’d frighten the pilot because it didn’t start first time and he’d switch the engine off. Which was unfortunate because by this time the petrol in the intake had caught light, and naturally the petrol, as it was an updraught carburettor, underneath, the petrol used to run down and drip out into the pour, under the aircraft under, the engine. The first thing you could do was to take your cap off, hold it over the air intake, signal to the chap on the trolley act and tell the pilot to start the engines again to suck the flames up into the engine and you finished up with a burnt cap! Oh dear, dear, dear. Right well. DB: I’ll just stop it for a minute while you think about it. BL: Our aircraft was mostly, being A-Able it was mostly the flight commander’s aircraft. Consequently, If they had a special job for it, SOE or a special person, man or woman, to be dropped they usually got the aircraft. Right. One day we was on the airfield and there was an aircraft landed, two actually, they were Flying Fortresses. The Flying Fortresses they landed, came round the perimeter track, parked somewhere on the field, and one of their coaches pulled up. The coach, it come from the hospital which is the Cheltenham, there’s a hospital, American, across over at Cheltenham, and they’d come to see some of their buddies that been, were convalescing there, but some of the ground crew that used to fly with them, they came along and they started walking round the aircraft. So, one of them came, coloured chap, big feller and two others, came round and stood in front of our Stirlings and looked up and said: ‘By Gal!’ he said. ‘What an aircraft,’ he said, ‘Look at the size of it, beat Flying Fortresses hands down. Look at the size of it, what a babe, look at the size of that.’ He said, ‘how many guns in it?’ When we told him four, he turned round and said, ‘four,’ ‘yeah and they’re at the back.’ So he walked, they walked round and had a look. He said, ‘I can’t get over the size, can I go inside and have a look?’ So I said, ‘yeah, I’ll come in with yer.’ Cause I didn’t know what, you know, what they might do, so we went into the aircraft and when we come out the aircraft after he’d had a look round, he came out, put his hand in his pocket, he said, ‘‘ere, have a cigar,’ he said, he put his hand in his pocket, ‘have two!’ Right, that’s that one. A couple of days later we had a fighter, American Mustang, came round the airfield, landed. I think there was an officer, colonel, somebody, evidently come to see his friend or whatever, and this was his aircraft, he parked it up. They’d been doing some work on the perimeter track and they’d dug up part of it, not a very big hole, but big enough, and when he came back, he got in his aircraft, taxied round the perimeter track and unfortunately very, very similar to the Stirling, he’s tail down, when you’re taxying with your tail down you can’t see over the nose, so you have to look side to side, and he goes, taxies you know, from side to side around the perimeter track. Unfortunately for this officer, found where they’d dug the ‘ole! And he ended up in the hole. Well, you know, his propeller got smashed [unclear]. It stopped the engine naturally, so didn’t catch fire or anything. But when we went and got him, walked over to him to see if he’s all right, he said, ‘my god,’ he said, ‘I’m in bloody trouble now!’ he said, because he shouldn’t have been there. [unclear] And that was it, but I don’t know what happened to it. I think the Americans sent a motor and got it out. We had to get it out of the hole with our Coles crane and they come and collected it, took it away. We actually got on very well with all the aircraft, all the aircrew on it and they were pals with everybody. They was, had, some of them had got themselves a second-hand car but they didn’t get enough petrol to go with it and always needed a bit of petrol. And unfortunately, we could only let them have a hundred octane, but, what we used to do, we used to give them some petrol in a car, in a can and we’d water it down with some oil, not too much: it smoked, smoked out the vehicle, and we used to do that, we used to help them out a little bit on that aspect, you know. And every now and again you’d get somebody would come out with the glider pilots, they’re going out for the night, some of them used to have some big motors. So I said don’t expect, I’m not trading this aircraft for your flippin’ car, no way! So, but no matter who you were, I won’t mention the names, but I used to have the flight commander and it was from right the way down, if they wanted help that way, I used to climb up on the undercarriage sometimes if I knew that the aircraft still had to be refuelled and drain off five gallons and put it in the motor, you know for them [unclear]. Might be their last night. So, that’s, that’s the way I helped them. They were very good to us, they used to save all their flying rations if they didn’t want them. They used to have nuts, raisins, chocolate, different things, sweet cigarettes, corporal, sweet caporal cigarettes, lucky strike, you name it, anyway it was all the, they used to come because they used to be a mixed crew. We always had a mixed crew, I don’t think I ever had an all RAF crew. And anyway, that was my way of helping them and they used to take us out every so often, and say meet you down the pub tonight boys, we’re not on our ops, all right, all right, meet you down the pub, and they used to buy us drinks and give us all their rations, throw ‘em on the table and we have, have a good night out really. Yes, or, or, they used to say right off tonight, all together, anybody fancy going to a dance in the village or wherever, and they used to take us out there and it was very nice and handy because at least we had an officer and they were allowed out after midnight and they used to, can be driving the car come through the main gate and the corporals look down look in and say Flying Officer or Pilot Officer so-and-so and company and right through. [Laughter] It used to happen quite a lot actually. That one. One day we was waiting for something to happen, as it’s coming, certain parts of, area of the, Europe, were being, after D, right, after D-Day we had a, quite a few places and things to do that we was working every day, doing all sorts of things, we was taking more troops, dropping supplies, dropping petrol for cars in five gallon drums, for lorries I meant, and tanks and that. We were very, very busy all the time, twenty four hours a day of doing work, stuff like that. Most of, some of them was on the dropping more specialist troops to areas that were needed out there and also arms and ammunition. The ammunition they didn’t have enough of that type of ammunition, that went over as quickly as possible. [Whispered] I’d love another one. One day we was er, decided to go, we had a day off, we did meet a couple of WAAFS, there were three of us: three men, three WAAFs. We all had our hopper bikes and decided as it was a beautiful day we decided to go down and see the river Severn because it wasn’t far from the river Severn. So we went down there, spent the day down there, you know like visiting the pub and one thing and another, and unfortunately one of the WAAFs got a little bit tipsy and on our way back to the camp, on our way back to the camp it was an uphill struggle on the hill. Got over the hill alright, she was a bit slow, but as she got over the hill it gathered momentum, unfortunately the, the road was resurfaced, just been resurfaced. And the resurface them days was tar spray and sprinkling of small shingle on the top and a quick roll over with the steam roller. Well, this poor girl got going so fast she couldn’t guide her bike properly, whatever, her mind wasn’t looking straight over, but over she went and she landed on her knees, tore her knees and laddered her stockings or her legs, oh, what a shame, you know she was in a bit of a state, so we was just walking back to the camp. I’m going to tell you now about our times when we used to go home on leave. Ah, well, we didn’t always get a ticket to go on leave. We always had to jump ship you would call it. Well, we used to have a chap who was very keen on talking to us chaps because he worked in the Orderly Room so no excitement in the Orderly Room, [laugh] no excitement in the Orderly Room so what he did, he used to come with us, you know, come to the NAAFI with us, and talk to us and ask us different things in the RAF as you do, so I said we, I want to go home on leave, for a couple of days, is any chance of giving me a 295, he said yeah, will you stamp it for me? Which he did. Right, right our crew, oh dear, our crew crashed at, in France on D-Day, or just prior to D-Day and we had a new flight commander arrive, Squadron Leader Bunker. Now Squadron Leader Bunker, he’s a legend. He joined the RAF on a short term and in just 1938, 1938 and became a pilot when war broke out and he flew right up until 1945, about 1945, 46 some time there, I haven’t got the correct time, date. And he was flying back, he was, took over from 620, 190 Squadron lost their flight, their wing commander so as he was a squadron leader in, on 620, they made him up to the wing commander. He took charge of the squadron and he was taking, they were doing the same ops as we were and he was flying cans of petrol to Belgium and bringing back prisoners of war, ex-prisoners of war to England and landing them at Oadby in Leicester, in Surrey, Sussex or Surrey, Oadby. Now when he landed there, they are still on operation and they are helicopters, large helicopters are flying from there, on the same station. Now when he landed there, there was a two, the Stirling had two tail wheels, one tail wheel was punctured and they decided to take off from there to go back to Dunmow because they had something on at Dunmow and one aircraft started going along the runway, the wheel, because the tyre was flat, shimmied and as it was going along it was shimmying and it eventually it caught light, because of the heat, and naturally he didn’t know this and when he put his undercarriage up, the two tailwheels went up into the aircraft at the back. The rear gunner was still in his cockpit and the tail of the aircraft caught fire and exploded and blew the turret out and killed the air gunner as he hit the ground. The pilot then couldn’t control the aircraft and it was flying towards the village of Windlesham and he saw a, saw a games field and decided to make for that, so he made for that and could only put the aircraft down because it was aflame, he put the aircraft down in the playing field thus missing that town of Windlesham. And the town people put up and erected a big [emphasis] memorial for him and his crew, a man, Bill, ex-RAF man, decided to erect this memorial and did a lot of work for it, to this, and also he wrote to the church in Windlesham, commemorating this memorial, wrote to the church and asked them for permission to fly the RAF ensign at the church tower every year on the same day that the accident happened, and this was granted, and from that day to this on the anniversary the flag flies from the mast. Now I attended the memorial service and it was well attended by the CO of Oadby and other officers and representatives and included, his son invited me to the funeral and Janet and I we went down and we attended the funeral and we went to see a service in the Clement Danes church in Oxford Street, and we attended a service in there and also a meal of, in the – where the hell was it – we attended a meal in the Royal Courts of Justice across the road to commemorate it. Right, our next trip was to Fairford, the adj, the crew and the whole squadron moved from Fairford to Great Dunmow. Now when we got to Great Dunmow that was a different kettle of fish because Great Dunmow was built by the American Air Force, air force construction gang. Now they had aircraft built and up and running before we got there. So quite a few roads, pathwords, pathways were built, the only problem when we first landed, we found that their toilet arrangements were quite different from ours. When went to the toilets when we arrived there we naturally wanted to go to the loo, we arrived there we walked into the toilets and there was a row of WCs, all in a row, no doors, no particulars, nothing. So we looked at one another and thought what the hell’s going on here? There was urinals there, but there was, on the toilet, WCs no doors, nothing, no privacy whatsoever. So, we was all looking at one another and laughing. Eventually someone said what the hell is this all this about? You know. So I turned round and kept a straight face, and said well you know the Yanks, said they like to read their comics, I said and when they sitting next to each other and reading their comics and they’re nearly finished, if they finished the comic they hand it to the next one, I said and they pass the comics along. [laughter]. Right, that’s the end of that one. The tin huts were the same huts as the others. The name on our door was called the gold brickers, that was painted on our doors and I understand, I don’t know if it was correct, but I understand the gold brickers was the lazy buggers, so I thought well maybe it suits us, I don’t know, but it wasn’t a bad place, but we never got a lot of coal for our winter when we stayed there for winter, so we had to end, we end up robbing, doing a little bit of getting some from somewhere else. So the WAAFs were fairly close, but their coal was behind big wire cages, so one winter we was in this winter there and I said well we’ve got to get some more coal lads, we’ve got no coal, flippin’ freezing in here, we been freezin’ all day out in the snow and that so we decided to do a recce and a raid, so we went out about five of us, and we went out and we were creeping in the dark, behind the WAAF huts. I climbed over first, climbed over the wire fence and kept sorting out the small enough bits of coal that I could throw over the wire, ‘cause they were a bit heavy, I’m not a weightlifter. So course we did it, and we got enough coal to go back, when I climbed back over, to last us for about a fortnight. So there we were, happy as pi – as hell. The next time we decided, there was a corporal, a corporal fitter, his name was Corporal Chatterjee. Now he was an Indian unfortunately, for us, but he liked it in our billet so he stayed, and he picked a bed near the fire which annoyed some of us, right, so we was, had to have another raid so I said to the corporal, ‘we’re going to get some more coal.’ ‘Good.’ he said, I says, ‘and you’re coming with us. So he said, ‘I can’t, I’m not coming I can’t do that, I can’t come and start stealing.’ I said, ‘if you want to warm yourself up mate, you’re coming with us or you’ll make things very awkward.’ So anyway we decided that he was going to come, and he certainly had to come, he gotta come or else. Anyway, we was finished going out, in the dark, and it had been snowing hard all day and the WAAFs had slit trenches outside their huts and course the snow had blown and filled the slit trenches up, so we didn’t know where the slit trenches were, you where they were. So away we went, once again I hiked over the fence, started throwing the coal and we got enough coal out over the other side, then we picked it all up, put it on our shoulders, walked it back through the camp and all of a sudden one of the WAAFs for some reason or other, because the lights was on in the hut, she opened the door, out the back, opened this door, lights shot out the door and silhouetted the corporal and me with these flippin’ great lumps of coal on our shoulder and she let out one horrific scream. Well the corporal started to run, not following the footsteps that we took going and went straight down the flippin’ slit trench, dropped the lump of coal, didn’t know what to do, he’s screamin’ his head off down the slit trench, cause it came up just to his armpits and he’s screaming out: ‘get me out of here, get me out of here!’ So I said, ‘hold on a minute, no, no, no, no. Give us the coal first.’ ‘No, no coal, no coal.’ So I said, ‘we want the coal first or you don’t get out. Get out yourself,’ so otherwise they’ll know that we been and pinched the coal. So anyway, eventually he give us the coal, I picked it up, we yanked him out and away we went back, he says, ‘no more, me no more do that, no.’ But that was a funny thing that night. Anyway, stop that one, that’s it. Next time we wanted some coal, we asked one of the chaps that, we was getting a bit low over the WAAFs quarters so we decided to raid the officer’s quarters. So the officers quarters was up on a bit of a hill and we decided to go there [unclear] we thought we’d take, ask the chap going on leave that used to drive, one of the – what was it – one of the Crossley, one of the lorries that used to tow the gliders, it was a Crossley, had no, nothing on the back only the tow bar, and it used to have a big galvanised tank in, on the back with concrete in it to hold the weight down, keep the back of the Crossley. Right, so this time we’re gonna go with this. Can we borrow your Crossley? He said ‘I’m going home on leave for the weekend, do what you like,’ he said, ‘but don’t mess about with it,’ he says, So I said we’re just going to get some coal. So away we went. There was the driver, was the Scotsman, and myself and somebody else sitting in the Crossley in the front, and away we went. We went round there, found the coal, got into position, got as much coal that we could get that night in there, and we’re driving this chap used to drive the oil bowsers driving the Crossley, he’s driving back. Well as we come away from the officer’s quarters goes down a hill swung round sharply to the right, there was a tree on the left hand side with a branch had come about three feet off the floor, off the floor and went across towards the road. Well, the Crossley’s quite wide and he’s driving this thing down there and he’s hit the corner of the cab on the near side, corner of the cab, lifted the cab up nearly off the chassis and smashed the, smashed the window, the windscreen. Anyway, we carried on going, we got back to the camp, we emptied the coal, emptied the coal, went and saw the chap who’s nearly ready to go out of the camp on leave, he’s dressed now, and said ‘ere we’ve damaged your lorry. ‘If you don’t tell me,’ he said, ‘go and get rid of it, I don’t know nothing about it.’ So anyway, they got a bike, put a bike on the back, drove the motor over round the other side of the camp, parked it, and then, somewhere, rode back on his bike, and then turned round and didn’t say a word. When the chap come back off leave, looked round says me bike’s not, me motor’s not in the MT, MOT, MT, somebody’s taken it out of the MT. So he went up before the sergeant, and the sergeant said, ‘your motor wasn’t signed in.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘well I’m sure I did, I certainly took it in,’ he said, ‘I might have walked out and forgot to sign it in.’ Anyway the sergeant, it was damaged, it’s smashed. Anyway they had a court, not a court martial, they had an inquiry into it, and it finished up they said that he didn’t sign it in, they couldn’t find any record so he’s guilty and he got seven days jankers and a seventy pound fine. Now, he used to, he used to run bets on the camp so he wasn’t worried about the fine, that’s all right said he was just upset about the jankers! Where the Scotch bloke that done the job, he got caught, you know, they found him and he got five days in the cookhouse. [laughter] He said I wouldn’t have minded if I’d got the fee he says cause I had the money to pay for it! And then we had sailors on our camp to help us out and this chap that was, used to sleep next to me. Well I went, he went on leave and I was going out one night, when he went on leave, and when I looked for my shoes, I couldn’t find me shoes, I only could find me boots, two pair boots, I had pair shoes, and I looked searched everywhere tipped every place upside down. Anyway, it finished up, his kit bag was next door to me. So I looked in the kit bag and there they were in his kit bag. So I went to the MPs, and I says look, my shoes are gone. I said ‘I believe,’ I said ‘I believe,’ I didn’t say I know, said ‘I believe that this chap has gone home on leave, he was an electrician, he went home but I believe he might have gone home wearing my shoes.’ So they said all right we’ll send a couple of our MPs round. Tipped his kit out and there’s my shoes, they yours, I says yeah, they’re my shoes so I said, so he said put it all back and when he come back we’ll have him. So he turned round, he got away with it, because he turned round said he didn’t know they was in there, someone must have put them in there and that was it. We was at the camp one day, at Dunmow during the day about four o’clock, and all of a sudden there was a tannoy message: “All personnel report, 620 Squadron report to the, report to their aircraft immediately.” So we all went down there, my one was well out the way, my one was AA, was at the front. The bomb dump was down where, when we got there BANG! Thought what’s that, you know, then there was another bang, a bang went up, as it went up this one exploded in the air. The bomb dump was alight, yeah, the bomb dump was alight. So we had to get down to the bomb dump as quickly as possible and get the aircraft out the way because there was the, there was the stock, so we all raced as fast as we could to where the bomb dump was. I got into one aircraft, cause there was no one there at the time. I got in there, started the engine up on the internal batteries, started the engines up and the four engines was running and by that time the pilot came to the aircraft and he, I got out and he taxied it across to the middle, middle of the airfield out the way. In the meantime these flippin’ bombs were going off! So of course I went back, after that I rode me bike back to my dispersal to wait and see what else had happened and the fire engine from Dunmow, ding-a-ling-a-ling-a-ling, come flying round the corner, came on to the airfield, on to the perimeter track, drove round, got as far as my aeroplane, stopped, got off the fire engine, and they’re looking, and they’re going boom, boom, these bombs are going off and incendiaries are flying all over the place, all of a sudden I suppose they thought got to go and sort this out if we can and they took off and went down there. I don’t remember much about it after that, you know. We just went and sat in the flight office, was down in, down a hollow, that was what we had to do. Time I was on night duty on night flying, I was, my turn to see the aircraft off, me and the rigger. So we went, you know, got go down there. I used to have a Claud Butler bike, a racing bike and of a night time I, if I had time off, I used to put me shorts on, go climb over the fence with me Claud Butler bike which I could lift up, light, and go for a ride round the country lane and that was me, that was a bit of my pleasure. Well this night, this day, I go, I thought, the hopper bikes were heavy, so I got me Claud Butler, got it out, got on to it and pedalled going down to the aircraft. Get out to the aircraft, course as I said my perimeter track went round, and as it went round, it went down to my first one, was there, so I’m going round, and I’m going, now Claud Butler was racing bike had one break, fixed wheel, one brake and a nipple on the end of the brake cable, so I comes flying down and when I got to, saw it on the aerodrome, there, saw it, the four engines was turning over. Well I’m, now I’m the engine mechanic, so evidently some, you know, the flight engineer probably, the skipper said start it up and the rigger, because this time I’m bike, cycling like mad, I’ve swung into the put me front brake on and the nipple on the cable broke and I’m going, I went straight underneath the props on the starboard side, straight under the props, and nearly hit the tail plane that sticks out the back, there at the back, and everybody sort of looking up and sort of saying bloody hell, good job it wasn’t a Halifax. Talking about my Claud Butler, I was on duty crew another night in the Control Tower and I was it was our turn to look after any aircraft that was coming in, you know, or what, we’re sitting in there, in the Control Tower, nothing happening, and all talking there and all of a sudden we had a call: there was some Halifaxes that couldn’t land at their own base so they were being diverted to us. So the flight control came down, says right, we need somebody at the far corner of the second runway, we shall bring the aircraft on behind the follow me car, behind on the perimeter track, that person on the end there will turn the aircraft down on to the spare runway. We want another person at the end of the spare runway, not too close to the main runway that’s being used and stop the aircraft there and park ‘em one after the other so you know, you had time to come round and do it. So of course I went, I said I’ll go to the end of the runway, send ‘em down. My mate says I’ll park them. So I said right and away we did it. So I rode me Claud Butler round, got the end of the runway, we parked my bike on the end, on the far side of the runway because the aircraft are turning just before it, and I stood there and said right, once I’ve stopped them, turn the aircraft with torches and then went like this and he could see the one up the end of the runway and he’ll follow them. I come to the last, I come to the last aircraft and as fast as I walk backwards, he followed me, so I turned this torch, turning me right hand torch as hard as I could so that he’ll turn round: still following me, so I thought he’s not going to do it. So I stopped him, walked over to the fuselage, bangs on the back door, somebody came and answers me at the back door, he said, ‘what’s the problem?’ So I said: ‘The problem is, the pilot is not turning to starboard, he’s got to turn now, lock his starboard wheel and rev his prop to get round otherwise he’ll miss going down the runway, right you got that?’ ‘Yes.’ ‘Right.’ I walk back to where I was, I was standing there like a twit and the pilot signalled to me forward so that one’s solid, this one this way, you know. He started to turn, started to turn, eventually he come round and he turned, eventually he comes round and turned and I’ve gone like that and away he’s gone. The follow me motor was behind and he said you want a lift back to the control tower? So I said no I says that’s all right I’ve got me bike here, I’ll ride over. Went over to pick me bike up and the flippin’ aircraft had run over it, he’d run right over the bike solidly and even clipped the pedals. It’s a wonder it didn’t burst his tyre! Yeah, he squashed it completely, useless, frame, wheels, buckled, the lot! So I had to pick the bike up, walk back, walk about what, three quarters of a bloody mile it is, ever so sorry, the other side of the runway, and when I got back there, so no good telling anybody as I shouldn’t have had the bike on the runway. So I had to dump that, and that was the end of my bike and my pleasure. We were all standing on the end of the runway one day, on the side and just watching things, aircraft taking off, one after the other, or whatever, and all of a sudden, this by the way is, we have changed from Stirlings now to Halifaxes, very careful. So we’re standing out there, this Halifax starts to take off and all of a sudden he got to the end of the runway and we kept wondering whether he’s going to stop or he’s going to go. Eventually he went, he just took off the floor, went across the runway, went across the runway, over the hedges and then bomb, ploughed straight into the field. We all ran over there see what had happened, didn’t caught fire or anything, went over there see what happened, the pilot’s, all got out, all standing around, pilot’s standing outside of his cockpit, on the wing, standing there, you know, and as we got over there we said to him ‘what’s wrong, what happened?’ ‘Oh!’ he said, the flippin’ ailerons locked on me,’ he said, ‘I couldn’t turn the ailerons he said to take off.’ So, anyway, within that time the engineering officer was turned up in his motor, he came up, walked across, got on, climbed up on the wing, ‘cause by now that’s on the floor, climbed up on the wing, looked into the cockpit and the I’ve never heard an officer swear so much in all me life! He turned round and he said what happened to the bloke, pilot says, ‘the ailerons locked.’ He said, ‘I would think so, they are locked!’ so the pilot said ‘what?’ ‘They are locked.’ What had happened was, on the aileron locks which clip either side of the steering wheel so to speak, on the, I say there should have been a piece of metal painted red and it was hinged on to the aileron lock to stop them going like that, wind blowing them and this piece of rod supposed to go on a seat to stop the pilot sitting on the seat. He supposed to take that, undo this one and that, and take it off, give it to the flight engineer and stow it in the stowing box that was, in a bag, but they were on the [unclear] and this piece was missing. And you know when I said, that whatshisname was in that magazine didn’t they, that was in that magazine so the pilot really [unclear]. Yeah, yeah, I don’t know if he got away with it, I suppose he did really, cause it wasn’t his fault, it was [emphasis] his fault, well it was the engineer’s fault ‘cause the engineer should have should have accepted it, put it in the stowage bag. I’ve already told you where I used to help ‘em out. I’ll tell you a quick one Dunmow, not a nice, not a nice thing this. I used to catch rabbits. What meat was naturally short during the war so naturally if I could get, take home any rabbits or anything like that for my mum, family to eat I would do so, I wasn’t living far from London so wasn’t a problem. So the Americans that were stationed at Dunmow lost a lot of aircraft, there was a great big heap of smashed up Marauders, and every Marauder had an aerial, stainless steel aerial, so that it was made of nice bond wire, so I went round and cut most, a lot of them off. What I did, I made some snares. I made these snares and put them around where these aircraft were damaged because I could see a lot of rabbit runs in there, and see little piles of poo, so I did this, I used to catch quite a few. And if I wasn’t going home I would give them to other men to take home for their parents to eat. So one morning I went round to see if I’d any rabbits in me snares. I come along and all of a sudden I could see in the distance, I thought what’s that, I said the next thing I saw was this dog. It was a grey dog, with, it looked like a Welsh terrier, little curl, grey curly hair. When I got close to him, I said he looked at me, he caught this snare, foot in the snare, and he looked at me and he wagged his tail and I thought well that’s good, he’s a little bit friendly. But he hadn’t been caught for long because he wasn’t rushing around or well, he was just sort of stood there like that, if to say I’m caught, you know. So anyway I approached him, and he was approachable, I just slipped it undone, and when I took his paw out, he just run around as though nothing had happened, he wasn’t hurt at all so I thought well that was brilliant, so anyway it finished up that the armourers, evidently he was lost, the armourers on the site, 620, they took him under their wing and he used to be their dog for all the time they was at Dunmow. But we used to take, take the windscreens out of these aircraft cause they was perfect Perspex. We used to cut them into little hearts, and fire ‘em, we used to cut the crown and the wings out of the button, put ‘em on there, put the hot heat on to it, and that used to melt into it, put a little loop on the end of it and buy a little chain, you know, not gold chain, I couldn’t afford that, but a chain and give it to girlfriend or somebody you met at the dance, you know. They used to like ’em. They used to make all sorts of brooches. Sometimes they used to find a cannon shell that was in all the rubbish, find a cannon shell. They, what they used to do then, used go in the site hut what we used to have was a vice what we used if we have to, you put the shell in the vice, wiggle it a little bit to make it loose, pull the bullet out or the shell out and then tip out all the cordite or whatever was inside, put the cartridge case back in the shell, get a piece, a little bit of wood and a hammer, put it on the end of the firer, give it a hit, fire it off so it made it safe and then we used to make a lighter out of them. That’s it. We used to have one rigger that used to be a very lazy person, and that rigger annoyed me because he was an elderly man, and how he ever passed A1 I shall never know. He used to cut mens’ hair for six p, you know, and I never let him cut my hair I wouldn’t do it if it was tuppence. Because, see he used to annoy me very much, he used to go on the site – he hasn’t got his bowl - the dispersal and he used to walk down the steps used to lead down the bank to the hut at the bottom and come in there and he’d sit, always was a fire if it was cold because they used to be, keep it during the night when they was, keep it alight night and day because you sleep there, wait for the aircraft to come back. Well anyway, this, this morning, he came up and he turned round, and he said, ‘Ah,’ he said ‘bloody hell it’s cold out there, innit, bloody, just come back, bloomin’ cold I don’t fancy going out there.’ I said and because it was warm inside the windows’d steam up, I said, he’s over, greatcoat on, I said he’d wipe his cuff on his hands on his greatcoat and he’d look out the window, he’d say, ‘ah well, airplane’s still there,’ open the Form 700 and sign his signature to say he’d done his DI to his signature. Now that annoyed me, I was always very, very conscientious, you know, people’s lives and that, anyway he’s said oh well that was it and sign it. So of course I went back out the aircraft and there were talking with a couple of me mates out there, we’ve got to teach this bugger a lesson, I said I know what we’ll do, so I went into the aircraft, I got one of the very pistol cartridges. I opened it up, I’m not quite sure of the colour: green, red, blue, or whatever it was, it used to be [unclear] emptied them out, I banged the cartridge on the end like to stop it explode off so it was safe, took these things, took ‘em down to there, I got a brick, a block or something, the old fire was burning merrily there, we got a lump of rope, tied it round the door ‘andle and tied it to something was outside, I can’t think what it was now, we tied it up anyway so he couldn’t open the door, and there’s only one door and we climbed up on to the top of the – what’s the name – on the nissen hut, cause you can, you could walk up ‘em. We used to have rubber soled boots on the aircraft, we used to walk up there, although it might be bit dodgy, and I got the pellets, dropped these pellets down the flue and put the brick on the top. Well! The colours that came out the top of the flue, where it’s coming out, shooting out all different colours, smoke, filled up the place, he’s screaming his head off in there. We had to let him out because the place got so full of smoke. Terrible it was, yeah. But he wasn’t a very happy bunny, yeah. [Laughter] One more, Sue, one more, right. We was in the NAAFI, used to be the NAAFI, Sally Ann it was, Sally Ann used to come round the dispersal and used park out underneath the wings of the two aircraft at the dispersal where the flight office was and see they used to open it up and sell the old tea and buns. We was there one day and the tanker driver pulled up under the wing, pulled up under the wing of the aircraft there, sitting there, talking, they was all talking round, eating and drinking and all of a sudden is that a flame in your cab? And he looked, he run round, he opened the door and somehow there was a flame in there, whether it come in from the engine or not we don’t know. So of course everybody’s running round like, there’s two thousand gallon tanker underneath the aircraft, so anyway, one of them went, we got fire, only a few fire extinguishers, we got it there, of course they got these fire extinguishers and one’s firing it through one door, and the other one firing through the other door and they’re getting smothered in foam! You know, anyway, it didn’t take long, I don’t know what it was, but it didn’t take long, whatever it was, it went out with the two fire extinguishers. All of a sudden, because it was an emergency they rang the fire brigade at our station, so of course they came flying round the corner, yeah, and the tanker driver got his tanker out just in case it sparked off again, backed it out away from the aircraft and these firemen on the cab, come flying round, jump off the fire engine, grabbed hold of some axes and went round, one opened the door, the other one opened the other door and two of them smashed in the front windscreen, ahhh, sorry, craaaash! Crash, windscreen. The tanker driver says, standing there he said, ‘what you do that for?‘ He said ‘well there’s a fire in the cab.’ He said ‘bloomin’ well we’d already put the fire out! What you do that for?’ Talk about cases caught, that’s it. First of all my overseas trip. The aircraft, the sixth airborne was going to Palestine to quell the vision, the trouble between the Jewish rebels, outburst, call them rebels because that’s what they were. As far as I’m concerned I’m very annoyed because when the Polish war was, when the war was started it was the Polish Jews and everything on that, I know Hitlers’ condemned the Jews, done all this against the Jews, here we are out there, it wasn’t the Jewish population’s place or the Arabs, it was split between them at the time and it was going all right. Somebody said that it belonged to the Jews and the Jews started to, causing trouble, and people were getting shot and injured by the Jewish population, that was the bit that got me. So I wasn’t very happy, against them, I’m not against the Jewish population, but I’m against them attacking us, which helped them as best we could and lost a lot of lives doing it. Right, getting back to this one then. We sailed out of, went first of all climbed on the trains and we went up to Liverpool, right, we thought well that’s it. So we was there at Liverpool, we was there for just before Christmas and they sent us home on leave for two days at Christmas. We’re back all the way up there, then they decided they weren’t going to let us sail from there, we’re going to sail from Southampton, so we’re all the way back to Southampton and we caught the Capetown Castle. Now the Capetown Castle was a beautiful [unclear] it was a Castle Line boat, and it was beautiful, it held the Blue Riband for the crossing to South Africa and England, so no, no never had an escort of any sort, mind you it didn’t need it at the time, but it never did have an escort during the war when it made journeys because it was too fast for submarines, they couldn’t catch it, so they didn’t need escort. Right, so we went over there and ended at Port Said. Landed at Port Said and we got off there, marched along the ruddy railway track looking for the passenger train. What passenger train? No passenger train. Cattle trucks! So we had cattle trucks, so we all had to climb on board cattle trucks, put our gear on the cattle trucks, and sit there with the doors open with your legs hanging out the door. Well I remember my dad telling me this about the w**s they’re right rogues and that, I had a cigarette, so I’d just lit this cigarette, and it was just lit so it was a whole cigarette more or less, and one of these chaps came along in his night shirt, turned round and looked at me, leant up towards me cause I’m sitting higher than him on and with me feet out the train, and he turned round, and he wanted me to light his cigarette, so he give a little tug, give a little tug on my cigarette wanted to sort of take it, making out it was too hard to light his cigarette so I let my cigarette go like a fool and off the rat he ran with my cigarette and I thought, oh Bill you’ve arrived. That’s that one. One of our things we had to do, when you have a kit bag you have a kit bag lock and if anybody knows a kitbag lock is a piece of brass or whatever, a straight piece of metal on a hinge and one piece that looped over, which you hole, put it one through the other and padlock it. Well, of a night time, we used to have to padlock our rifles or our guns or whatever we had, to the bed, through the springs of the bed, and put it through the trigger guard and then padlock it, so that nobody sort of blow in your face if you like, make you roll over and take your gun from underneath yer. So that was a bit of a bind because it was a bit of a bind because personally when I went on board the boat I had a sten gun. When I got off the boat I had a rifle. So there I am with sten gun pouches, with sten gun ammunition in it and when I got off the boat I got a rifle with no nothing, no ammunition whatsoever, no spare whatsisname. Anyway so they took, the first couple of days they took ‘em all, everything off us, but then again they handed them back to us, I still got a flippin’ rifle. Anyway, I used to, when we went on guard, and we used to have to go on guard, the only problem with the RAF, I found from the beginning, and the only bones I had to pick with them was, if you was on a squadron you was a lodger, when you went on a main station, all the people that was lodgers, the squadrons, they had to do all the guard duties, all the fire picquets, all the rough and tumble but when it come to night flying we had to do that as well. We had to do night flying, we had to do duty crew, things like that, there wasn’t a lot. Now I was against that all the time, that was my bugbear with the RAF. Right, now when we come to the RAF station, we come to there, we used to have to go on lorries from the main camp out to the dispersals and what they used to have was a thirty hundredweight lorry, a few seats in the back of that and behind that was towed a trailer and it was like the trailers you see the Germans carted round and the trailers sitting in the back with the seats running side to side and people sitting there with their guns in the middle. So we used to have to go out and that was, but then put your gun somewhere and start doing your work during the day. That the toilets, now there was something you’d never heard of far as I’m concerned. They were built of brick, they were built of brick, they had some sort of an L shaped sort of urinal wall, with the urinals on the side, you walk in, walk past that and you go in and round the centre of the thing, was a centre wall built with seats the same height as you would normally get it, but between them was set, going towards the centre with a, a pipe comes up and through the middle which vented it below, below and when you went to sit in there, there was a piece of timber used to come down on top of ‘em. When you wanted to go to the toilet you used to have to pick up this seat have one hand behind your back to hold it up. And when you get up it automatic flop down, to stop the flies. But it doesn’t stop the flies. Nothing stops the flies. So anyway one night I went round in to the toilet, my dad, you know was telling me bits about different things, and I’m in the loo and I’m sitting there, thinking of England and all of a sudden, I had an American torch at that time it was an UA, American military torch, and it was one that stood up, and it had a clip on the side and the light faced horizontally at the top, very bright, a lovely light and I used to take this torch out, put it on the seat side, and it used to, sorry, it used to shine up on the white wall and light the place up a bit, so not only I got the benefit, so did other people. Anyway, I’m sitting there one night, and it wasn’t long, I think it was about fourth or fifth day I was out there, I was sitting there, no one else in the bloomin’ place, all of a sudden sominck went past me quick [whooshing sound] oh some twit had dressed a sheet over him and run past, run round, round the toilet, run round, anyway it made me jump. I jumped up, the seat automatically flaps down, hits me torch, lost me torch down the toilet, gone down the pit. I’m now in darkness, what’s that in darkness, oh dear, so I lifted the seat up quick and I could see me bloody torch shining down the toilet! I wasn’t half fuming I was, I didn’t half give everybody a row, what you talking about, I don’t know about it, you know, that was it. That was that one. We was, we used to have to do a guard at one time, when it finished the Arab Legion took it over. When that happened that was fine, because sometimes if you was on guard they used to have a wire, a thing where they used to go into the dispersal, the aircraft were parked, they used to have wire going across, barrier and you lift it backwards and forwards. Well if you was on guard you used to have to stand there, well when they used to come and empty these flippin’ toilets, they used to, I’m not going to say how they used to empty it, but they used to, and the cart they used to pour it in to take it away used to dry, used to dry, and shrink, the timbers used to shrink, anyway, it didn’t leak, wasn’t a metal one or anything, one nothing plastic or anything, so it used to be, when it used to stop there, for them to lift the barrier, and we then shut the barrier, pfff, that whatever used to drop out of there it used to smell bloody horrible. Anyway that was that one. That was nasty. The little, another of my quickies. We used to have a little wog, we used to have water bowsers and they used to have taps along the back. Now they used to have big wasps, like, looked like bloomin’ hornets, big black, brown and black, white and yellow ones and they used to go up the tap, when you went out for [unclear] like that, bloody thing would come down the tap wash your mouth round so you had to be careful. But what the little, we used to call them, what the little w**s used to do, because they used to come on to the and sell you oranges and things like that, or scrounge what they can, and he used to come on and what they used to do, they used to get a matchbox, and they take their skull caps off - oh I’m sorry I’ll have to stop this - they used to grab their skull caps, grab these waspy things, get a matchstick, squash their bottoms out, take out the sting, but we didn’t know that, put them in these matchboxes, and then when it was tea time, or tea breaks, they used to come in, go in the middle of the room, and stand there talking and they’d see these w**s and that they used to undo these match boxes and throw ‘em on the floor. Cor! Can you imagine! Everybody used to run out of there, pick up all their buns and run out of there. Yeah. So that’s what they used to do. That was terrible. I went to Benghazi, when an aircraft landed there because burst it’s tail wheel, I went there to fix an engine, because it only done the tail wheel, somebody slung his sten gun over his shoulder when he was on guard and the bullet, block came down, took one up the spout, went through the aileron so we didn’t know whether it had damaged anything inside the aileron, so we had to send back an aircraft to Palestine for a new aileron. There’s that one. Cairo West, Cairo West we had, I told you about the lady, girls in the swimming pool, I, one minute I’ll get meself sorted in a minute. So I adopted a dog at Cairo West, it was a white, white alsatian, he was a beauty, brown nose, big white, big white, creamy white tail and everything. But he was, had got loads and loads of ticks. So what I had to do I had to go to get some petrol out the aircraft, put it in a can, used to go back up there, and I used to get hold of him, put him between me legs, and I used to get a matchstick, dip it in the petrol, touch the back of the whatsisname and it used to unscrew its neck and drop on the floor and I had to get them out of his ears, and off him wherever I found one, I got one, god rid and lovely. I had him for about two three months and someone come in and said the South Africans have just run over your dog. They used to have a little South African squad on the camp and they’d gone out on the beer that night and come back and they’d run over, went out looking for him and found him, and he was runover him, shame wasn’t it. That was that one. What was the other one? Sandstorm. We had a sandstorm, at, in Cairo West, blew all our tents down, blew our tents down, [laughter] that was a right do that was. Went to Iraq, Habanya, and then on to, oh, can’t think of the other one, Hibanya and the other one, can’t think of it. Went to Nicosia, we took, we used to take boats over to Nicosia, and we used to go over there to service the aircraft, while it was over there for a couple of days and they used to come back and we used to do that regular before leave, you know, you could come home. And that was that one. Well, I don’t think I can, there is others, there’s lots of others bits and pieces that I think’d make you laugh, but I think I’ve said enough. Well I was demobbed in Heliopolis, caught the bus, caught a tram [laugh], caught a boat for going home, it’s called the Duncott Castle. Now that was on the Medlock trip. Now on the Medlock trip they used to go from Mediterranean which was Port Said to Greece, Piraeus and then back again, do that trip then they used to catch a train right through Europe. Except for this time they was told, the crew was told that they was going home to England, but they didn’t, they came back to pick us up, right. So a lot of the crew jumped ship, says right, no, we ain’t going to do it, we’re going home, wo they went home. So when the boat got to Egypt, when we were on board they any RAF personnel is interested in being the ship’s crew, like to come to the ship’s Orderly Room we will sort a job out for them. So the electricians went in to the electricians, engineers were whatever wherever, I said well and my mate, come on let’s go, got be good. So of course we went there and when we got there we were made waiters, stewards, made stewards, looking after the senior NCOs and WAAFs, in there, and they were on board ship, they used to get special, waited, others used to have to queue up. Anyway, so that was it, so we went there. When we got there we used to say how do we wash in the morning, can’t get washed, oh use the crew, you’re crew now. We didn’t, when it was deck drill we used to be ‘we’re crew not RAF’, and when we were crew we are RAF, anyway we done all right out of that cause we used to, sugar was on the table, and we used to keep filling up bags of sugar, putting in the boot, we come back with sugar, tea, coffee you name it, plus the fact you used to have egg and bacon as much as you want in the morning, we did all right. We used to, we didn’t have to but went up in to the crew’s quarters to have a wash and shower, where the other blokes didn’t have any. Decent toilets sit on a what they say sit on a thing, water used to run through like that, sometimes somebody would light a bit of paper, put it in the water while we’re sitting there! Anyway that was that. Right. Now, when they, we finally came home, we found we got paid for it as well, they had to pay us, they had to pay us. We went to the, this, what they call it. I finally got demobbed at Preston. I said to the, it was, 1947 Winter, 6, 47 winter, February, beginning of February I think it was and I went to, I said to them right, they said throw your greatcoats over there, I said hold on I said, I think we can buy our greatcoats, I said I think I’ll buy mine I ain’t going out in that in just a mac and a suit, you know. So he said throw your greatcoats over there, so I said can’t we do it? No. They refused to let us buy our greatcoats, so we had to go home in the flippin’ whatsisname, freezing cold. Anyway the next thing I knew I tried for a job, tried for different jobs. I tried for a job in the gas company, cause I didn’t want to go in the building trade ever, tried for a job in the gas company, in the turbine house. I kept falling asleep, cause we did the night time, you know, and you couldn’t fall asleep cause there used to be a water tank used to have to keep filling up to keep the turbine working, the turbine an I keep falling asleep. I’m packing it in, I can’t have this. So I packed it in, that’s what I thought. I went down the labour exchange to see if they’d got anything and they said we’ve got a job at Ford’s. So funnily enough they let me pack it in there, so I went to Fords, got a job on the Ford V8 engines. But it’s not what I wanted, I wanted to be in the engineering centre, I wanted to be in the machine shop, want to be in the machine shop, says yes, okay, got the job, went there. Next thing I know I’m being traipsed along to a bloody whatsname line, Ford V8 assembly line, putting pistons in the piston block, and that was everything I don’t want take day. I see you ever see Charlie Chaplin in Modern Time, well I was in there like that, I shut me eyes go to sleep and I could see it, you know, monorail. Anyway, I finally finished up, I did leave. I said machines were made to help man and not make him a slave, I’m out of here and you can do what you like. Well anyway, he didn’t take any notice and I finally went back in the building trade and I stayed in that until I retired. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with William Joseph Longhurst Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Denise Boneham Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ALonghurstWJ180407 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:35:34 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Cyprus Egypt Great Britain Libya North Africa Cyprus--Nicosia Egypt--Cairo Egypt--Port Said England--Bedfordshire England--Essex England--Hertfordshire England--Lincolnshire England--Surrey Libya--Banghāzī Description An account of the resource William Longhurst served as an engine mechanic throughout the Second World War. He was a member of the Hackney Wick Air Defence Cadet Corps before volunteering to enlist in the RAF after his 17th birthday. Following basic training at RAF Skegness, technical training was undertaken at RAF Filton. Initially working on Blenheim aircfraft, William went on to gain experience on both Stirlings and Halifaxes. He provides a colourful account of his experiences throughout his service career, which ended when he was demobilised in the Middle East in 1947. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Anne-Marie Watson Maureen Clarke Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1945 1947 620 Squadron B-17 Blenheim fuelling ground crew ground personnel Halifax mechanics engine Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944) P-51 perimeter track RAF Cardington RAF Filton runway Stirling training Women’s Auxiliary Air Force https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/514/11307/BGoodmanLSGoodmanLSv1.pdf 95e2e091735c5cb46cad20f313332cb3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Goodman, Benny Lawrence Seymour Goodman L S Goodman Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Goodman, LS Description An account of the resource Three items. Two oral history interviews with Squadron Leader Lawrence 'Benny' Goodman (1920 - 2021, 1382530, 123893 Royal Air Force) and a memoir covering his activities from 1939 to 1945. He flew 30 operations as a pilot with 617 Squadron. The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Benny Goodman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Transcribed document A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document BY BENNY GOODMAN It was September 1939. A few of us were sitting around the wireless waiting for the Prime Minister to make an announcement. He did so and told us we were now at war with Germany. I was a student, in digs, and a long way from my home in London. I decided to telephone my parents and talk things over with my father. My first instinct was to leave my studies – not a hardship really! – go home and join up. Eventually, my father agreed, much to my mother’s consternation. I discovered later. He had served four years in the 1st World War. There was no doubt in my mind I was going to join up. However, I did not want to join the navy or the army and it was only then I realised I wanted to become a pilot. I was almost nineteen and had no idea what was entailed, but with the ignorance and cheek of youth I presented myself at the RAF recruiting office and told the officer who interviewed me what I wanted to do. He didn’t say a word, finished filling in the form he had in front of him and told me I would be hearing about my application very soon. Not long afterwards I went for a general medical and when I passed this I was sent to an RAF medical for a more involved air crew medical. Everything went well except when it came to the eye test. My eyesight had never been top class so I went to the back of the queue and learnt the two or three lines each candidate was being asked to read. I passed! After attestation, I went home to await call up. It came a few weeks later and I reported to RAF Cardington, where I was issued with a uniform and all the accoutrements for an AC 2. This is it, I thought. I shall be a pilot in a couple of weeks and will save the world! Things didn’t quite turn out like that. After about 10 days at Cardington, we were told to pack our kitbags and were marched off to the local railway station. Rumours were rife! And if you listened to everyone, your posting was to anywhere in the world. In fact, we went to RAF Bridgenorth for six weeks square bashing and all that went with it. ‘Bull’ was the order of the day – the camp had four parade grounds) Then I and another chap were posted to RAF Abingdon. When we got there nobody had any idea we were coming and so the Orderly Room Sergeant asked us our trade. We both said ‘U.T. Pilot’ and consequently we were sent the aircrew quarters, which were in fact the married quarters on the station. Abingdon was a straight through course for Whitleys and so, with much justification, we thought we would be on the next course. However, there was a war on! It was decided that the Whitley course running at the time would be the last one and again, no one knew what to do with us. The next day we were moved from our relatively comfortable billet to a remote part of the airfield. There was a Nissen hut with six beds, no sheets, no pillowcases and a Fairey Battle packing case as a so-called recreation room. The latrines were self-dug, but permanent. We were to be ground gunners! It was explained to us that this was a temporary move but as such we had to learn, amongst other things, how to strip and re-assemble the C.O.W. gun and the water-cooled Lewis gun. Duties were 4 hours on / 2 hours off in the gun pit. We patrolled the airfield at night and challenged anyone on it for the password of the day. You can imagine the sort of answers we got from aircraft technicians with their bags of tools in the pitch black trying to find the Whitley they were to work on. At dawn every morning we had to march around the perimeter track with our gas masks on in case of a German paratroop invasion from the air. Our food was brought out to us in hay boxes and so was never very warm! We used to try and sneak in once a week or so to the airmen’s quarters to see if we could get a bath, but if we were caught the airmen billeted there showed no mercy! In our off-duty time, we were sent to the coal dump to load coal bags and to carry out various other domestic duties on the camp. One of these included cleaning out the grate in the Officers’ mess before they came down for breakfast. On many occasions I did this and always had to finish by black-leading the grate and all the surrounds. Some years later I went back to Abingdon as the Adjutant of the Overseas [page break] 2 Ferry Unit. When I went into the mess, I looked at the grate and the few officers sitting around it in armchairs and thought to myself: “If only you chaps knew how many times I cleaned this thing!” A posting came through eventually to start pilot training and I was sent to Stratford-upon-Avon, which was a Reception Centre. As I walked into the Orderly Room to report my arrival, a voice shouted “Airman, you’re on a charge”. I looked around and saw no one else -I had the horrible feeling that I was already in trouble, and this was the case. Having spent some months as a ground gunner and living in my uniform it was, to say the least, scruffy, as was the cap. Not very politely I was told I was a disgrace to the service because of the state of my uniform. All the other chaps, of course, were wearing brand new uniforms and I stood out like a sore thumb. I tried to point this out to the Sergeant but he wasn’t interested. Next morning, I appeared before the O.C. unit who was sympathetic but clearly felt he had to back up his Orderly Room Sergeant. Seven days jankers was my reward. A posting duly came along to Initial Training Wing (I.T.W.) and there we did six weeks of ground school prior to E.F.T.S. Just about everyone passed and I was sent to 17 E.F.T.S. Peterborough for ab initio training on Tiger Moths. The course was about 48-50 hours and to the horror of another chap and myself, we were posted to RAF Woodley for an instructors course. Both of us could just about manage to fly the Tiger Moth and so to be told we were going to be instructors frightened us considerably. Following this, after a couple of weeks at Clyffe Pypard a holding unit, and a spell at a Manchester park, awaiting posting, we were sent to Canada to do a S.F.T.S. on Ansons. Boy! This was living. A twin engine aircraft with retractable undercarriage, even though we had to wind it up! The course included night flying, the first time I had experienced this, and I can truly say that on my so-called first circuit I varied between 600 ft and 1,500 ft AGL and lost site of the airfield completely. I hadn’t got a clue. To my surprise, my instructor didn’t seem at all phased and by the end of the detail I had at least got the circuit and the heights more or less sorted out. What a brave man he was! After another night sortie, I was passed fit to do a solo circuit and I truly believed I was just about to die! However, all went well and I was then sent to Kingston, Ontario, to – believe it or not – instructing on Harvards. This aircraft is still in use to this day. The thought of flying this monster, let alone instructing on it, made me feel quite sick. Kingston Ontario was an RAF station dedicated to the training of Fleet Air Arm pilots “is everybody mad?” I thought. The other instructors, all of whom had done an operational tour (and one was Fleet Air Arm) readily accepted me – the sprog in every way. The Flight Commander took me up and put me through my paces on the Harvard and pronounced me fit to start instruction. However, he showed me and tested me one lesson at a time, so that I could take up an acting leading naval airman and show him the particular procedure. Nobody else had a clue how inexperienced I was, except the other instructors in the flight who thought it was a great joke. So, I started with one lesson at a time and over a few weeks built up to the whole syllabus. I have to say the Harvard was a wonderful and responsive aircraft to fly and, despite the tales of woe and misery about ground looping, I never saw one instance of it … and that includes me! By this time I was a Pilot Officer and because there was no room in the Mess I had digs in the town and even bought myself a Chevrolet with a dicky seat. My Canadian driving test consisted of reversing the car about 2 feet, and being told to ‘stop and get out, come into the office’ … and I was presented with my Canadian driving licence. In a short time, I had come from cleaning the grate in the Officers Mess as an AC 2 to a Pilot Officer Instructor, with a car and living in digs! Was I dreaming? All good things come to an end and I was posted back to the U.K. to prepare to go on ops. We set sail on the Awatea from Halifax, Nova Scotia, and of course nothing ever goes well for long. Twenty-four hours later in the Atlantic, we were torpedoed. Fortunately for us, a US Navy destroyer intercepted the torpedo and took most (90%) of the subsequent explosion and sank, leaving us damaged. We had no rudder and there were several other things wrong with the ship; we went round in circles for some time. Rough repairs were made and we went back to Halifax. We kicked our heels there for a while and then were put on a train journey which lasted for several days, to New York. There we transferred immediately to the Queen Mary. There were huge numbers of American troops and O.C. Troops was an American Officer. He called all the officers together before sailing to tell us that, if we were torpedoed [page break] 3 We must remember that the officers were last to leave the ship. Bearing in mind our recent experience, this didn’t exactly cheer us up. We did arrive safely in the U.K. and I found myself flying Martinets for a time, carrying out simulated air attacks on Wimpeys and for their air gunners to cine-gun their replies. At last a posting came through to an O.T.U. at Silverstone. By this time I had already met Tony Hayward, who wore an Observers brevet, and we became good friends. We went to the O.T.U. together and there we picked up our full crew. Crews selected each other in what seemed a very haphazard manner, by talking to those we thought would be suitable, but I can’t remember ever meeting any crew member who was subsequently dissatisfied and wanted to leave his original crew. In the end, everyone was crewed up. From Silverstone we went to the Heavy Bomber Conversion Unit at Swinderby flying Stirlings, and then to the Lancaster finishing school at Syerston. At the end of my course, the Flight Commander sent for me and my crew said: “What the hell have you done, Benny?” I protested my innocence but everybody laughed. When I entered the Flight Commander’s office I felt sure I had done something terribly wrong because there, facing me, were the Flight Commander, O.C. Flying and two or three other officers. My heart sank into my boots and the only thing I could think of was a ‘court martial’. I felt slightly cheered when the Flight Commander seemed quite friendly as he spoke to me and one or two of the other officers questioned me about my flying and the practise bombing results that we had obtained. I felt further heartened and, knowing the results, couldn’t believe that was what I was being called in about. After a couple more questions, one of the officers said to me: “How would you like to join 617 Squadron?” I truly didn’t believe that I had heard correctly and said: “Excuse me, sir. Did you say 617 Squadron?” He answered: “Yes”. I felt a heavy weight suddenly had been lifted from my shoulders and said that I and my crew would be delighted to do so.’ At that time the only other crew which had been invited to join the squadron had come and had come directly from training was headed by Tony Iveson, and he had been a Battle of Britain pilot. He had been on the Lancaster course immediately before me. I was told that we had been selected for 617 and to report for duty within 48 hours. When I got back to the crew and told them the news, at first they didn’t believe me. Eventually, I convinced them and we all packed up and got transport to Woodhall Spa. On arrival and after checking in at the Mess and going through the usual procedures, I reported to the Squadron Adjutant. I waited a few minutes and was ushered into Wing Commander Tait’s office, who was O.C 617 Squadron. We had a chat, or more accurately – he spoke to me and allocated me to a flight. I reported to the Flight Commander Jonny Cockshott. He welcomed me and told me that the crew would have to go on a short training course devised by the squadron and, importantly, to get used to the S.A.B.S. bombsight and to obtain bombing results within the limits prescribed by 617 Squadron. We did this and found ourselves accepted as fully operational on the squadron. My first trip was with Flight Lieutenant Bob Knights … without my crew but with his. I sat in the dicky seat where the Flight Engineer usually sat. I couldn’t have been luckier in the choice of captain I was to fly with. Not only was Bob an extremely nice chap but he was most helpful as well. To give you an idea of his value, he was a Flight Lieutenant with a D.S.O. and I think you know there aren’t many of those to the pound. I did a full tour of thirty trips with the Squadron. The first trip as a crew was to Brest and, of course, being a sprog crew things had to happen, didn’t they? Over the sea, I suddenly found the cockpit full of smoke and the wireless operator telling me his radios were on fire. He and the navigator were trying to make sure the fire didn’t spread. Just the sort of confidence booster you need on your first sortie on a new squadron! I opened the D.V. panel and fortunately the combined efforts of the wireless operator and navigator dealt with the fire … we carried on. One thing was certain: none of us could have faced a return to the squadron without completing the trip saying: “We couldn’t do it. We had a fire on board.” How’s that for luck? Some of the trips we did were quite well known. There was the Tirpitz trip (13 1/4 hours) and a 9 hour 25 minute night trip to Politz-Stettin. That was the first time I could truthfully say that, at 18,000 ft with [page break] 4 oxygen masks on, I can remember smelling cordite from the flak that was thrown at us. That may sound like a line shoot, but it certainly wasn’t at the time. A further notable op was against the Arnsberg viaduct, when we were selected to drop the 22,000 lb Grand Slam on the viaduct. We received Grand Slam in March 1945. To carry this a number of modifications were made to the Lancaster – a Lincoln undercarriage was fitted to allow for the increase in weight; mid-upper and front turret were removed, along with the wireless operator’s equipment and the W/Op himself. Other armour plate was taken out and the ammunition load reduced, all to save weight. The bomb doors were removed and replaced by fairings and a chain link strop with electro-mechanical release was fitted to hold Grand Slam in place. As I recall it I was number three to release a Grand Slam, Jock Calder was the first, and Johnny Cockshott the second. This was in March – yes we are still in March, and Arnsberg Viaduct was the target. On release I remember the aircraft went up vertically about 100 – 200 feet. My flight engineer recalls hearing a loud bang at the same time, as the release slip parted. In all 617 dropped 41 Grand Slams before the end of the war in Europe. I like to think Grand Slam punched its weight. We were the only squadron to have this bomb. Another op that had high squitter value was against Hamburg. We had the misfortune to have a hang-up and the bomb dropped a few seconds late, which meant that it didn’t fall on the target but into the residential area beyond the target. We didn’t feel good about this, but there was nothing we could do. We set course for home. About fifteen minutes later my flight engineer nudged me and nodded his head toward what I thought was the instrument panel. I looked but could see nothing wrong, so went on flying. He nudged me even harder and moved his head rather more urgently towards the starboard side. I looked out and to my horror saw the latest German twin engine jet fighter, a Messerschmitt Me262, in formation with us on our starboard wing. I thought I must be dreaming but I knew very well I wasn’t, and thought: “This is it.” It seemed to me that if I tried a 5 Group corkscrew we wouldn’t have a chance against the German aircraft. We had no mid-upper turret and clearly the rear gunner was completely unable to train his guns on him. So, there we were at the mercy of the Luftwaffe. The flight engineer and I looked at each other again and then I looked at the German pilot, but there was no friendly wave from him – so much for fellowship of the air! Suddenly the Me262 disappeared as quickly as it had appeared and I wondered if we had all been smoking opium the night before! It was only some years later when I was talking to Air Commodore John Langston, who at the time was a Flying Officer navigator, that what appeared to be the same aircraft had attacked and shot at John’s aircraft. The German pilot must have just left training school because, although he clearly used all his ammo on John’s aircraft, he hadn’t shot him down. I thought later how fortunate we both were. Three more incidents out of a number of lucky escapes makes one ask the question. Did Lady Luck really play a part? On one raid during the bombing run the nose section of the fuselage was hit. Everyone seemed okay, but after landing back at base the bomb aimer discovered that both heels of his flying boots were pitted with shrapnel. An inch or two either way? On another raid the wireless operator was tuning his radio and leaned a little closer to the set. As he did so, a large projectile or piece of flak entered one side of the fuselage and exited the other. After we landed, the wireless operator sat normally in his seat and we measured the two holes and the position of his head. If he had been sitting in this position at the time of the attack, the projectile/flak would have pierced one side of his head and exited the other. An inch or two either way? There were three Tirpitz sorties. The first trip involved a direct flight from the U.K. to Yagodnik, Russia, land there, refuel and stay the night. From thereon the next day, the first Tirpitz attack was attempted. This was a hazardous plan as it included flying over Europe both ways and in the end the attack was not successful. However, we unfortunately lost one aircraft. [page break] 5 For the second and third Tirpitz trips, amongst the modifications, two large fuel tanks were fitted inside the fuselage. Health and safety, eat your heart out! The flight engineers had to master the new fuel system very quickly, and indeed they did. Both these trips were made from an advanced base at Lossiemouth. On both occasions the squadron flew up to Lossiemouth with Tallboys already on board, refuelled and attended final briefing. On the second trip, at midnight, we lined up around the perimeter track, taking off in turn at a green signal from the control tower. The weather was unkind – low cloud and rain – just the job for a night low level trip across the sea! Our turn was approaching and I was having a last look around the cockpit when the flight engineer poked me in the ribs, pointing at the canopy. I looked up and saw a massive pair of main undercarriage wheels heading straight for us. There was nothing I could do as there were aircraft either side of me. We both sat there, like rabbits caught in the headlights, and waited for the inevitable. At the last moment, the wheels cleared our canopy and all was normal again. Just the sort of experience you need before take-off on a foul night! Later we discovered the errant aircraft was flown by Tony Iveson. He had suffered engine surge on the point of leaving the ground. By a masterful piece of crew co-operation and training he and his flight engineer finally kept the aircraft straight and it just cleared the top of our canopy. But we were all young and I suppose took it in our stride. Now, I’d have the vapours. Lady Luck again. Due to cloud and an efficient smokescreen, it was not possible to bomb the Tirpitz with any accuracy and we returned to Lossiemouth. However, on the third trip – a replica of the second – 617 Squadron finally sank the Tirpitz. My last trip was to Berchtesgaden, the Eagle’s Nest, and I understand we were followed by Main Force. We, 617, certainly made a mess of the Waffen SS barracks. This was my last trip with the squadron although we were already made aware of a possible raid, I believe to Denmark. However, a truce was declared before this. After the war, I went into Transport Command but everything seemed so tame after 617 Squadron. Finally, but certainly not least, I pay tribute to the ground crews. Working out in all weathers, often in wind snow and rain-swept dispersals they were always there to ensure the serviceability of our aircraft. Despite working long hours, they were always there to see us depart, and waited in uncertainty, eager to witness our return… …and woe betide us if we damaged [underlined]their [/underlined] aircraft! For 365 days and nights they made it possible for us to do our job. All of us who flew knew their worth, but why were they never publicly recognised? We would have been wingless wonders without them. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Service History of Benny Goodman Description An account of the resource <p>Benny recalls his RAF career, including recruitment and initial training, both in the UK and Canada.&nbsp; He provides details of the 30 operations he went on.</p> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource B Goodman Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Seven page printed document Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Memoir Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BGoodmanLSGoodmanLSv1 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Shropshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Peterborough England--Berkshire England--Woodley (Wokingham) Canada Ontario--Kingston Nova Scotia--Halifax United States New York (State)--New York Germany Germany--Hamburg Atlantic Ocean--Bay of Biscay France--Brest Germany--Berchtesgaden Russia (Federation) France New York (State) Ontario Nova Scotia Russia (Federation)--Yagodnik Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ashley Jacobs David Bloomfield Maureen Clarke Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive 617 Squadron Anson bombing crewing up Flying Training School fuelling Grand Slam ground crew Harvard Heavy Conversion Unit Lancaster Lancaster Finishing School Martinet Me 262 military discipline military living conditions Operation Catechism (12 November 1944) Operational Training Unit RAF Abingdon RAF Bridgnorth RAF Cardington RAF Lossiemouth RAF Silverstone RAF Swinderby RAF Syerston RAF Woodhall Spa sanitation Stirling Tallboy Tiger Moth Tirpitz training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1021/11392/AMartinFJK180309.mp3 a7c8b2de21c5a8f6d71d637fd2e397d1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Martin, Frederick Joseph Keith F J K Martin Description An account of the resource An oral history interview Warrant Officer Keith Martin (b.1921, 1580351 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 626 and 300 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Martin, FJK Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document DH: Right. Ok. Right. Let’s start off with a serious thing to start off with. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Dawn Hughes. The Interviewee is Mr Keith Martin and you like to be known as Keith, don’t you? Yeah. The interview is taking place at Mr Martin’s home in Wem, Shropshire on the 9th of March 2018, and thank you Keith for agreeing to talk to me today. So, the first thing I wanted to ask was thinking about the lead up to joining the RAF how did it come about that you joined the RAF? FM: Right. DH: And what influenced you? FM: I can go back to living and working in Shrewsbury. I was working for quite a big countrywide firm of agricultural machinery merchants with a branch in Shrewsbury. Hence that’s where I was working. My calling up papers came quite quickly. I was eighteen and my boss said to me, ‘You won’t need to go,’ he said, ‘Because you are on a Reserved Occupation.’ Well, I was very immature. Honestly. No, I was very immature and so that suited me. And it happened again a year later when I was nineteen. But when I was approaching twenty and I knew it would happen again I was reaching the stage where you felt guilty really if you were comfortably sitting at home, when even your own friends were going off and so I said to my father, ‘I’m going to volunteer.’ He said, ‘Volunteer for the, for the Royal Army Pay Corps,’ he said, ‘Because they get you, you’re excellent at figures,’ he said, ‘To get you well behind a desk.’ And, I, I thought about that and decided no. I liked the RAF uniform. It’s quite true. I don’t want to go in to the Army in case I land up with a bayonet. And I can’t stand the thought of the water but I can’t swim anyway. And so I went and volunteered for the Air Force which I was accepted straight away, and on the 20th of April 1942 I arrived at Padgate which is North Lancashire for my indoctrination. That’s the right word. I was there for five days only during which time there was a group of about thirty. This squadron leader addressed us and he said, ‘Would any of you like to take an aircrew medical?’ And so, well a damned good idea having a medical so I put my hand up didn’t I? And of course I passed the medical, which mainly funnily enough was, and several other failed through vision. Vision. What I didn’t know, I was innocent at the time, that I had already volunteered for aircrew and about four days, be about the 24th of the month, April I was interviewed by the same squadron leader and he said, ‘Martin, your legs are too short for us to train you to be a pilot.’ And he said, ‘Your educational standard is too poor for us to educate you to, to train you as a navigator.’ I accepted that, because I only went to the Catholic, Catholic ordinary school. So, he said, ‘We’ll train you as a wireless op air gunner.’ ‘Alright, sir.’ The following day I was posted to Blackpool, and I found that Blackpool was the school that taught you two things. One was, the important thing was how to learn the Morse Code and how to handle sending and receiving, and the other thing that was important to them but not to us was how to learn how to march up and down Blackpool streets. Behave ourselves because we were not in billets we were out to houses. Took us in, you know. So they took me. Was it how many? The school for wireless operators was I think three months. May. June. July. That’s right. And I left Blackpool having passed out at the required eighteen words a minute on the 4th of August. Went home for a, once you got a break you know. And then nine days later I received a posting to a place called Yatesbury in Wiltshire, which was the flying part of the learning to be a wireless operator. Doing it in the air. So, in effect that was the first, my first meeting with an aircraft. So, from August to November I was training as a wireless operator air, from which you got your sergeant’s stripes if you passed out. And I passed out, and got my sergeant’s stripes and was then sent for a short, what I call waiting to be properly dispersed. A small, well yeah it was a waiting station and that of all places was Ternhill. And I was at Ternhill for [pause] three weeks from the middle of November to the middle of December, and then I was posted to Calverley in Nantwich. Near Nantwich. And that really was further progress, and I have an idea of what we were flying then. Memory you know. Very good but — [pause] FM: I think. ’43. No. That’s right. Calverley as I was saying was again just further progress on generally learning how to fly in the air, you know. Nothing particular. And then I was sent to Aircrew Recruitment Centre in London, and I didn’t really know why but it, it did, how can I put it? It was, in fact to tell me or to tell the person that they had been selected for A — wireless operator, and B — air gunner. And I’d been selected for wireless operator. And then, so then I was sent to 18 ITW, Initial Training Wing, Brignorth for just a month. Initial Training Wing speaks for itself. And from there, from that very station I got married. [pause] FM: Then I was posted of all places to a place called West Freugh in Scotland which was Advanced Flying Unit, which you have to be in an aircraft flying over the sea, and you had to go through certain rules and regulations to do what you had to do. Having passed out there in May 1943 [pause] No. No. Sorry, no. No. That’s before, having passed out in August 1943. That’s right, when I finished at Yatesbury, and then to West Freugh. I passed out there in October ’43. Sorry. I was only there about six weeks and I was posted to Hixon, Stafford, which is an Operational Training Unit and we were, I was introduced to Wellingtons, Wimpies. I was also within the first week [pause] I was introduced if I can describe it as the crew. The crewing up procedure need, needs talking about because it’s something that outsiders wouldn’t know. How do you get crewed up? Who does it? The answer is the pilot chooses his own crew. The end of the week that you’re there being introduced as I said to Wellingtons, you’re told to report to the, what was the big room that was used generally for dances and things, and there was thirty wireless operators, thirty navigators, thirty engineers, thirty rear gunners, and thirty pilots. Now, that was a crew of a Wellington. Did not include a mid-upper gunner because a Wellington does not have a mid-upper gunner turret. So the skipper chose his own crew, and I was there in the room and this, seemed to be elderly gentleman he turned out to be six years older than me [laughs] came along to me and he said, ‘You’re Sergeant Martin.’ ‘Yes.’ He was only a sergeant, so I didn’t have to say sir. ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘You’re from Shropshire.’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘So am I, would you like to fly with me?’ I said, ‘Thank you very much.’ And that in effect, I say to this day saved my life because he was a superb pilot, and he got the crew together and instead of us being half a dozen individuals we became a crew. Right. So we then flew Wellingtons as a crew in training from a place called Seighford, which was a depot of Hixon’s’ and we were, I was there from November ’43 to January ’44. I think it was possibly at that time that we flew our first not exactly operation but our first trip over a foreign country [pages turning] Yeah. It was on the 30th of the December during that period that we were sent to do a leaflet raid over Belgium. This was one of the Royal Air Force’s ideas that every crew should taste flying over the sea and flying over what was still dangerous territory, and so that we got back and we hadn’t lost our nerve and we didn’t report anything silly. You know what I mean, and so that was the important thing and that was in a Wellington on the 30th of December. Having [pause] passed that, we then immediately got transferred to a four engine Conversion Unit. Immediately after that. We were not going to fly in Wellingtons in operations. We were going to fly in the new four engine bombers that were coming on line. And the first thing we did when we got there was pick up a mid-upper gunner. The mid-upper gunners had been trained ready, but had been sent straight to Conversion Units as they’re called because it was there that the, the skipper would pick one up and so that’s where we got hold of Jock. And now we were a crew of seven which you need. And so we did Conversion Unit at Sandtoft, and during that time had a crash. We crashed a Halifax [pages turning] We crashed a Halifax on the 6th of April 1944. We had a 5 o’clock take off. Evening take-off. It was only what we called circuits and bumps learning, for the skipper to learn how to take off and land and he had an engine failure on take-off. And because we hadn’t really got any height the skipper, the skipper decided to crash land. The decision he made we just accepted it, and in the subsequent report which I’ve got a copy of it says, “No pilot error. No disciplinary action to be taken.” But we were a bit, we were sent straight to the medical to be checked over, and we were a bit cheeky so in their wisdom they sent us straight up again. Well, in a few hours, 9.15 that night we went up again but this time we were also accompanied by a senior pilot as well as our own to see that there was nothing wrong, and that went on all right. And the amazing thing is we saw that Halifax the other, the next day or the following day and it was, it was a ruin. We’d hit a tree in a forest or in a field, and it had torn the wing off. But how we all got out alive I don’t know but we did. The aircraft was a write off. So, we — DH: Can I ask what plane that was— FM: That was a Halifax. DH: A Halifax, yeah. FM: An old Halifax. They only sent the old ones to training places. So we had a couple of little trips before we, whilst we were there when we had to go to learn what they called ditching practice and this was up in Lincolnshire. Just a day out. You had to go. They had a big pool with a half a Lancaster in the middle and you were taken out but you had to get the dinghy out and on and get yourself home. You see what I mean. DH: Yeah. FM: Right. We were posted from Sandtoft to Hemswell for the month of April to transfer from Halifaxes to Lancasters. A small transfer. Just the difference for the pilot really and on the 1st of May 1944 we were posted to Wickenby. DH: So can I ask with your job as a wireless operator what was different going from the Halifax in to the Lancaster for you? Was there any difference? FM: Nothing on those two. Different coming from the Wellington because it was a different radio. But no my job was basically the same. Very little radio, and mainly standing in the astrodome as an extra set of eyes but I’ll come to that when it comes to operational flying. Right. On the 10th of May, on the 11th of May we were on just Lancasters locally. Further training. But on the 19th of May we had our first operation but to the marshalling yards at Orleans. Orleans south of Paris. Total time there and back five hours and fifteen minutes. Right. We then had to prepare for the next one by an air test. The next operation which was on the 24th of May which was the marshalling yards at Aachen right on the border. Five hours and five minutes. Now, I don’t want to go through these individually. I shall want to just pick out those that matter. We went to Aachen again. We went to marshalling yards. These marshalling yards were so important because it was coming up to D-Day. We didn’t know that. But the Germans were, their marshalling yards were bombed ruthlessly. The next one is a marshalling yard as well. DH: Can you explain what a marshalling yard is please? FM: Well [laughs] I thought you’d know that. DH: No. No. FM: A railway. Well, they’ve got a big railway. When you marshall all your equipment it’s a marshalling yard. DH: Right. FM: You know. It’s the same in this country. We got in to early June and we were on such things as heavy gun batteries on the coast. Railway junction again, and marshalling yards again. You can see the picture. We’re averaging the 5th of June, 7th of June, 10th of June, 12th of June. We were averaging one almost every other day and then [pause] that’s right. I’d passed it over without thinking how I got the Legion of Honour because on the 5th of June and the 6th of June was D-Day and in those twenty four hours we did two operations which was a thing unknown. To do two in twenty four hours. One was to the north of the coast, and one was to the south. And I’m talking about the German coastal batteries and we bombed them north and south. The south one we did first. You’ve heard a lot lately of these emigrant towns called, one was called Sangatte. Well, that’s where we, that was a bombing because Sangatte then was a big German coastal battery. So we did Sangatte and within a matter of no time at all we were off again, and this time we did the bottom ones near [pause] near, well I can’t think what the big town is on the corner. Anyway, that doesn’t matter. It was one of the southern ones, and doing those two on D-Day was the reason for the French had fixed that anybody operating on D-Day would get this medal. So, came to the last trip that I did was on the 12th of June. Again, marshalling yards and then I was transferred to the Polish squadron with a week’s leave in between. Got back. Got to the Polish squadron 17th of June. We, they didn’t waste any time. We air tested on the 17th of June morning and went on operations in the evening on the 17th of June. So we then go to several operations with 300 Squadron in June. I’ve got 24th, 25th, 29th and 30th. On the 30th, the last one was a daylight. Marshalling yards in the daylight God knows why. I can’t think of why but in fact the next one, the 12th of July, by now I must have gone on leave then. You had a leave generally every so many months because I have a blank space between the 30th of June and the 12th of July. On the 12th of July we started operations. Now were on longer distance ones. This one is nine hours and eight months. This one which I just wanted to describe is the most dangerous one we did. It was to a marshalling yard in the south of France, almost on the Swiss border at a place called Revigny, and when we got there it was ten tenths cloud. You were flying at about ten thousand feet in beautiful sunshine with a blanket of cloud right over the target. Couldn’t see anything. The Master Bomber, I don’t know whether you understand Master Bombers, the person who is there controlling. The master bomber said, ‘I can’t mark the target.’ And he recommends go home. You know, abandon. Abandon the exercise. And I can remember my skipper saying, only to us, ‘Look lads. We didn’t fly all this way to take our bombs home.’ He said, ‘I’m going to try to go through the clouds and see what happens.’ So then came the most scary time of slowly, slowly descending through cloud, and could see nothing. The navigator had taken the distance. No. Yeah. No, the direction that we were travelling so that we could reverse and go back and kept on going through this cloud to Revigny. Anyway, we came out into sunshine. Or night. It wasn’t sunshine. It was moonlight really. At four thousand feet. The skipper said, ‘Right lads. Now, we can reverse along so that we go back the way we come until we find these marshalling yards.’ And so the bomb aimer was the important one because he was lying in his turret in the bottom and he could see, and he right up, ‘Coming up marshalling yards.’ Right. So skipper said, ‘Right. Prepare for bombing run.’ And we had a very quick bombing run. Not the usual four minutes because he wanted to get the bombs away whilst we were over the marshalling yards, and so we bombed. We luckily we had time to close the bomb doors when a four engined plane which we could only describe as a four engine plane, couldn’t say it was a Lancaster or a Halifax came right underneath the clouds straight down underneath us, all four engines ablaze. An absolute, you know, a roman candle and either it exploded or it crash landed and exploded but it blew us up on our backsides. And I can remember skipper who never swore saying, ‘Oh Christ.’ And we seemed to be all over the place, and he was desperately trying to correct. Anyway, at two thousand feet he corrected, and we were back on an even keel so he said, ‘Lads, I’m going to stick these throttles right through, and we’re going to get home quickly.’ Now, when we got home we had to report to the intelligence. Why? Two things. A — the skipper had disobeyed an order to abandon to go home. B — he pressed on and bombed the target. A — he was going to be court martialled. B — he was going to get a medal. He got the medal. So he got the DFC, quite rightly. Then we carried on several quite long trips. Stuttgart. We went twice to Stuttgart and that wasn’t very nice. DH: Can you explain why it wasn’t very nice? What mainly — FM: Because you’re going to go through the Ruhr first of all. You’re on the chance of night fighters for such a long distance before you even get to the target because it’s an eight hour trip. Four hours each way. Do you see what I mean? You’re under, you’re in a, their well armed area, and to do it twice in oh hell, twice in four days. Yes. 24th and 28th. I can remember one little thing. On the way home on the second trip I said to the, through the, ‘Skipper, permission to speak.’ You weren’t allowed to talk, you know. ‘Permission to speak.’ ‘Yes, wireless operator.’ ‘Will you all wish me a happy birthday? It’s my birthday today.’ Because it was now, we took off on the 28th of July and on the way home it was the 29th of July. DH: And did they? FM: We did that night. Then there were several trips, and then came the period at the end of August. We had already now done [pause] we’d now done twenty six. And the skipper, and now the bomb aimer had also been made a [pause] a what do you call it? You know, we were still sergeants and he, yeah. You know what I mean. Anyway, the skipper called us together and he said, ‘I’ve had,’ because he said, ‘I’m a senior crew,’ he said, ‘I’ve got the ears of Bill Misselbrook — ’ our squadron commander that at the end of August the wing is being disbanded because the Poles have now got sufficient trained people to take over the wing completely. Now — ’ he said, ‘We’ve got four trips to do.’ And he said, ‘I would like to think that we could get them done without us being posted again to some other squadron, you know and have to start all over again.’ So, he said, ‘I’ve got to get your agreement that if you agree I’ll see Bill Misselbrook and say, ‘We volunteer for every trip that’s going.’ And he said, he must have agreed and from the 25th of August to the 31st of August we did four operations, and one of those was the biggest we’d ever done and it was at, it was up to a place in the Baltic called Stettin. Or it was called Stettin then and there was a Nazi naval base there and somehow Stalin had asked for us to bomb it. I don’t know how. You can get these funny things that go on. So we did Stettin as our twenty ninth trip and again on the way home he said, break the rules, he said, ‘I’m not going to stooge back under the rules of the speed that you can do safeguarding the engines,’ he said. ‘They can only shoot me.’ So it was boof, and we came home and the funny words, we landed and I can remember the words coming over the, over from the ground radio lady. She said, ‘U-Uncle. U-Uncle have you completed your mission?’ Because we were fifteen minutes before time getting home. Whereas the others took fifteen minutes longer obeying we’d, anyway that was another story. And then we did a daylight raid on the 31st of August and at the end of that I have a note signed by the station commander, and the squadron commander, “You’re tour is completed.” And so that in affect ends the chapter of my time doing bombing raids. Can you — DH: Do you want to pause? FM: Well, do you want any further more? DH: I’ve got some questions if that’s ok. FM: Because I mean going on, you can go on forever. I’ve got — DH: Yeah, no, I’ve got some questions if that’s ok. FM: Otherwise, I can go on so long with — DH: No. That’s fine. On an op what would your job entail because it took you five hours, eight hours? So what would you do during your time? FM: Your main job that you are trained to do for the, for the crew is that you take a message in code from Bomber Command Headquarters at oh, they’re active then. Not the headquarters now. They’re active headquarters every fifteen minutes. Every fifteen minutes they send out a message. It may be status quo. It may be they’d got a change of wind direction, change of wind speed, a change of anything, but every fifteen minutes the wireless operator takes a message and passes it on to the navigator. DH: Right. FM: In between, each skipper may want to use him in a different way but most want to use him as a lookout, standing up under the astrodome and helping to spy night fighters. DH: Right. FM: And the bit, the important thing he does on a bombing run, when you can imagine there’s a mass of aircraft coming through to bomb on the same you suddenly see one appearing above you and immediately you tell the skipper. Because what you don’t want to do is be bombed by one above. So you’re first of all a wireless operator and second of all you’re a lookout. DH: So you kept busy. FM: Yes. DH: You mentioned before we started the interview, you talked about the Polish squadron. You talked about the make up of the Commonwealth crew. FM: Yes. DH: Can you explain that please? FM: No, when a Commonwealth was pure luck and they had to use the name Commonwealth because they didn’t want to insult like for instance our navigator was a Canadian. My friend that I had there who’d trained could still be alive. The last time I heard of him he was in a wheelchair but his navigator was the most unusual thing. He was a Yank. But he was a Yank who had wanted to get into the war, and so he volunteered from America to join the Canadian Air Force, and from the Canadian Air Force he got, so there’s another one. So if you said it’s an English crew, or a British crew you could be offending, so it was called a Commonwealth. DH: Right near the start of the interview you talked about your training and everything and you were saying that you got married. FM: Yeah. DH: Before we started the interview you said briefly about your feelings about getting married and did you do the right thing at the right age and that. Can you, can you talk about that again please? FM: That came after though, dear. I don’t know whether it’s worth talking about. I mean, I didn’t [pause] how, how can you say that in effect during your period of the war until, until the later time that when she was allowed to come and live close to because I was no longer on operations but in those early days every leave was like a honeymoon. You got, you know you and to be honest with you we, we reached demob without ever realising what married life was, and then by then we got a baby on the way, very difficult to put it in to words. I just felt that she was too young. She never complained, but at eighteen. DH: Yeah. FM: But as I said marriage went on for sixty one years and we got a letter from the Queen here so that couldn’t have been too bad. DH: Oh no. FM: It was only in my own mind that. Yeah. Yes. DH: Right at the start you were saying that you got the call up papers but you were in a Reserved Occupation. FM: That’s right. DH: So were you allowed to ignore those call up papers if you were in a Reserved Occupation? FM: Oh yeah. Only, only as a volunteer. DH: Right. FM: Only, and if you were accepted you could have been a volunteer in a far more important Reserved Occupation for some reason and be turned down. You could have been in a, some kind of laboratory somewhere and what have you. But the rule was you, if you, if you, you had to volunteer and you had to be accepted. DH: Right. FM: And my Reserved Occupation was really only agricultural machinery. I know it was helping to keep the farmers going but it wasn’t of grade one importance. DH: You said at the, near the start again that you went for your initial training. You said you went for training and the indoctrination. What did you mean by indoctrination? FM: I think I can explain that. A big word for a little thing. DH: Yeah. FM: 16th of June 1943 [pause] That’s right. I hadn’t started. I hadn’t got to the [pause] Yeah. The first introduction to an aeroplane we [pause] now, can you edit this if you — DH: Yes. Yes. It can be edited. FM: The important thing was to try and make you sick on the basis that once you’d been sick you were never likely to be sick again. But if you persisted in being sick you would get discharged from aircrew because you couldn’t be sick. DH: Right. FM: You just couldn’t be. Now, that was the indoctrination that I, and it, on the 16th of June ’43, I went twice in one hour on a Dominie with seven, six others and we marched to the aircraft and as we marched they gave us each a bucket. Now, that was before we got to the aircraft they gave us a bucket. When we got inside they had purposely not cleaned it up and I think half of them were sick before we got off the ground. But then he was an experienced pilot and he could hedgehop. You were only up and hour but believe me we were all terribly sick. Is that sufficient indoctrination? DH: Yeah. FM: If you see what I mean. DH: Yeah. Yeah. FM: If you followed on, and I had four but the first two were only experience. The second two I had to do two message taking. That was my initial contact with the wireless. DH: So I take it you stopped being sick. FM: I stopped being, I was only sick once. It’s a terrible feeling and you walk out, stagger out of this aircraft and they say, they march you out, two march. ‘You now go and clean your bucket in the toilets.’ It’s not a nice story, but that was the indoctrination. It had, they could not have people who were going to be sick passed as aircrew. It could not be allowed, and so they had that method to making you sick and giving you four chances really. DH: Yeah. FM: I can only, I can’t honestly tell you if they all failed. All four. All I know is I was only sick once [pause] The crew, or most of them. DH: Which one are you? FM: None, I took it, I took the photograph as it happened. I didn’t know at the time, you know. DH: Yeah. FM: That I was going to take a photograph of the others. The skipper of course is in the middle. The one who looks a little bit elderly. DH: All so young. FM: Yes, all so young. DH: So young. Can you tell me when you were actually on an op did you get a chance to get scared? Were you so busy that you couldn’t get scared? FM: You were scared all the while. But you were a part of a crew and you got your courage from them, and they in turn got their courage from you. You were a crew. To say you weren’t scared would be a lie. Many’s the time I hung tight to the [pause] especially on, when you get a bad take off and you don’t get off the ground at all due to weather conditions but that’s another story. You can’t. You can’t. Some get all the stories you need to get your memory, you know. But scared, yes. We were scared. We were scared. Especially when you were flying over the Ruhr and the ack ack was almost bouncing off the bottom of your aircraft. You could hear the crackle of it. Yes. Yes. Anything else? DH: I don’t think so. FM: I think I’ve been pretty thorough. DH: You have. You have. FM: I, as I said I had two further RAF lives after that but I don’t want to go into them all. DH: No. No. After, so after VJ Day how, how did, what affect did the war have on you do you think? FM: None at all. DH: No. FM: We were still going on targets. The fact that they were targets of a different lot, because the one lot was being prepared for VE day and the second lot afterwards. No. The only thing, you know, how can I put it? When we finished we didn’t know that we weren’t going to be called up for a second tour and would have done if it hadn’t been for the Americans dropping the atom bomb. If that hadn’t have happened after six months or more of it we would have been called back again. DH: So, after you finished your tour how did the RAF occupy you? FM: Well, that’s another life. I could go on then about a whole year flying down near here, and then a third tour. A third life when I managed to get appointed to the Test Pilot’s School and that’s where I finished. DH: Are you able to tell me about the Test Pilot’s School? FM: Yes. It’s very interesting. We’ll forget the next bit. That was a year literally at South Cerney just outside Gloucester where I was flying with advanced, advanced trainee pilots when they sent, and it was a two engined aircraft, an Oxford when they sent them out to do night trips. They were not allowed to go without a wireless operator because the wireless operator could get them home by getting directions. So that was literally a year. And then there was a message on the notice board, “Volunteers wanted for the Number 4 Empire Test Pilot’s School,” which was being transferred from Farnborough to [pause] I can’t think of the name now. Anyway, I’ve got it in here. It begins with a C. Yeah, that appears, Neville Duke. I flew with him once. Empire Test Pilot’s School. What am I trying to tell you? DH: You transferred from Farnborough to — FM: Right. No. They were transferred. I was still at the Advanced Flying Unit until the end of October ’45. DH: Right. FM: So, I’d been there a little over a year and they wanted volunteers. Wireless operators who would go to just a quick training school to teach them how to help a pilot flying on his own on a four engine aircraft. You’ll appreciate that if being able to handle all the throttles, being able to close down one or more engines, jobs like that we were taught and then we were sent off to this school. And when we got there, there was nothing there and the station commander called. He said, ‘Your warrant officer has just come through Martin so you’re going to be in charge.’ So, he said, ‘You set up this unit. There will be five others,’ he said, ‘We tried to get youngsters who haven’t had the — ’ he called it luck, ‘The luck to have a bombing life because they came in too late.’ So he said, ‘They’re raw youngsters most of them but,’ he said, ‘There is one senior man as well as you.’ And so we set up this. They gave us an office. Oh anyway, we set it up and eventually it was got going but it was months. A long, I don’t, I can’t remember why but anyway it was January’46 before we actually flew when they were ready as well. And we flew from this Empire Test Pilots School. From Cranfield. Couldn’t remember it. Cranfield, which is north of, north of Bedford. Anyway, we started flying there in January ’46 and we did very little flying because they didn’t, they weren’t always flying four engines. They only needed you when they were. But, you know you did some interesting small jobs with them. And then came my moment of, there came a time in May ’46 when I think we’d had a couple of these six taken ill with something, flu or something and suddenly we, we had to do a lot more because I got a book here when I’d flew four times on the 6th of May, five times on the 7th May, twice on the 8th of May, five times on the 9th of May. I don’t want to go on but you can see I was doing a lot then and during that time, you’ve never heard of Duke have you? DH: No. FM: Neville Duke. DH: No. I haven’t. FM: Well, he became, later on he became a test pilot and he became holder of the speed record and I, and I just flew with him once for forty five minutes. N. Fifty minutes. So that’s my fifty minutes of fame, and carried on there still flying and the last trip I did before I was demobbed, 8th of July ’46. Without this I couldn’t remember all those things. DH: No. FM: That was the best and the luckiest posting I ever had. Suddenly going from training pilots in night cross countries often being more scared than I ever was bombing, and suddenly getting pilots good enough to be test pilots, you know. It was an entirely different experience. And the fact that I’d became a warrant officer which helped a lot. Financially it helped a great deal. DH: Yeah. FM: Right. Any more questions? DH: So after, after you were demobbed what were you going to do? FM: Well, I was lucky you see. One of the reasons that I could safely volunteer was the company, and I’ve got a letter from the boss, what would I call him? Anyway, he was the boss, guaranteeing any member of the staff anywhere in all of the branches around the, that volunteered for the Services, whichever Service and came back were guaranteed a job. And I’ve got the letter from Hubert Burgess himself and he thanked me very much for my service, services, and understood my feeling of, of volunteering. And so when I got back I went down to the branch in Shrewsbury, had an appointment with a man named Richards who I worked for. He’d, he’d been too old, you know to go in. Anyway, he’d be too important to have to go in the Services and he said, ‘Yeah. When do you want to start?’ And I said, ‘Well, can you give me a week? I’ve got to find, I’ve got to find lodgings for the wife and, and my daughter.’ And so I think I started work, I think I started work on the 1st of September. DH: Wow, that’s, that’s quite good, isn’t it? That’s very good. FM: It was good. DH: For them to say that. FM: Because, because this man Richards and I had a very long working relationship and he, he pushed me up until I was eventually, you know in a very good job. So that’s really the story of how lucky we were that we came back. I mean, I can remember one very good high rating head office boy who went, and he went in the Air Force and he came back and he went back to a job and it happened. He kept his promise. Your job was there, and that was a marvellous thing, you know. You didn’t have to worry about your week’s wages did you? DH: No. That’s quite something. FM: Another thing he did. This is, this is only for your information because you had to recognise what money was worth. He instructed the wages people to put ten shillings a week in an envelope in the safe in my name. DH: What? During the war? FM: All the way, whole time I was through. DH: No. FM: For the whole of the time I was through he paid me ten shillings a week for fighting for me country. DH: Wow. FM: Believe me when we came out that money set up the furniture for our first place. Now, how many bosses would do that? DH: Not many. FM: But that’s actually absolutely true. They say, ‘Oh, ten shillings a week,’ but ten shillings a week then. DH: Was a lot. FM: Was a different kettle of fish. And anyway, he didn’t need to give me anything, did he? Guaranteeing me a job was sufficient without paying me ten shillings a week for five years. DH: Wow, that’s quite — FM: So you do get good bosses. You do get good bosses. Yes. DH: Well, can I say thank you. You’ve been absolutely fascinating to listen to. FM: No. I, I didn’t want to overdo it as I said. There’s the three lives. The second one I told you about flying trainee pilots around the skies over Gloucestershire were not a happy experience and then the Test Pilot’s School which was quite marvellous. Quite marvellous. Although to get in [laughs] this is not for you, I’m just talking to you, you get in, and this test pilot he says, ‘Well, Martin —’ or, yes. Well, yes. Sometimes they know your Christian name but you know there was, you weren’t together long enough. He’d say, ‘Well, I’m doing single engine flying today.’ So he said, ‘You know how to feather.’ That was what I was taught of course. I said, ‘Yes.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘Be careful to feather in the order that I tell you because —’ he said, ‘I’ll have to adjust the balance of the aircraft.’ So you get quite happily tootling along and he says, ‘Feather outboard.’ So you press the button for stop the outboard and the engine dies and it’s just running in in the wind and he’s adjusting. And a little later he says, ‘Feather inboard.’ So you press the inboard button and that so he says, ‘We are now flying on two engines.’ That’s alright. And then he said, ‘Feather inboard,’ or whatever. The one he prefers. He may say that he prefers to feather inboard, or feather outboard of the other two and you do it and suddenly you’re flying or trying to fly a four engine bomber on one engine. It has its own moments. It has its moments. Oh yes. But you trusted them you see. They were skilled, and they had to be able to fly this bomber on one engine without losing height. Just keep it and they would, they passed. Anyway, enough about that. DH: Which aircraft were they? FM: Lancasters. DH: They were Lancasters. FM: Yes. And the latest model too. The latest Rolls twenty two engines I think. They had all the best to train on they did. Yeah. Anyway, thank you for coming. I don’t want to bore you to tears. DH: You’re not boring me whatsoever. FM: I mean, I was one of the lucky ones to have lived through it and to some extent to still have an active memory. I do need this because the dates sometimes run into one. DH: It would be very difficult to remember all those dates. FM: Oh yeah. Yes. DH: Very difficult, one last question. FM: Yeah. DH: Have you got any you know, lighter moments. Any funny things that you can remember from your time on operations? FM: You know, it’s hard to remember a funny thing. I think the funniest thing was not what happened on the day but what happened on the day had a remarkable [pause] how can I put it? Resurgence of life many years later. And I’ll tell you this, I can’t remember which daylight raid it was but the Polish squadron, Polish aircraft my pilot had got friendly with their pilot was in, landed in the next bay, and they were getting out and we were getting out and they had, one of the ground crew was a bit snap happy taking pictures and he came along and we grinned at him and he took the picture and that was it. Never thought anything about it. Now, this is one daylight raid towards the end of the, with my life at Faldingworth with the Poles. Now, how many years later? I would be [pause] Phyl had died so it was one of their anniversaries at Faldingworth and I got an invitation and I had a friend, a golfing friend who was very keen on anything to do with, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘I’ll take you. I’d love to.’ He said, ‘I’ll take you willingly.’ I said, ‘Ok.’’ He said, ‘Don’t worry about driving,’ he said. I was still able to drive. I hadn’t reached this stage but it must have been ’87 ’97. Fifteen. It must have been fifteen years ago. An anniversary they had and that we went up and we went first thing and we went in to the village hall which was also now laid out with old photographs and everything to do with the Poles. And the Polish people, or the remnants were there and a lot of them had got tales to tell. And I was walking along here, this lady had got a book and she spoke English. She said, ‘Have a look at my records.’ She said, ‘Do you happen to know my father? He was a Polish pilot in this.’ And I said to her, ‘Apologies,’ I said, ‘We were only there three months. We never got really to know our own lot properly let alone — ’ ‘Oh, I understand.’ She said, ‘Have a look at my pictures.’ And she turned over a page and there was the photograph there that he’d taken what would be the best part of, if he’d taken it in ’44 and this would be in, in ’84. The best part of forty years later. And I squealed. I said, ‘You won’t believe it,’ I said. ‘That’s me.’ ‘Oh,’ she said, reading it. This was the pilot who was a friend. And this ground crew had taken, and it had got to her and she got it and there it was. A photograph of myself and oh, I remember the bomb aimer was there and the rear gunner. Unfortunately, the skipper hadn’t got out of the aircraft because we were only disembarking, you know. DH: Yeah. FM: But I can remember squealing. Then I called my friend, ‘Brian. Brian come and have a look at this.’ So he came along and I said, ‘Look at that.’ ‘Bloody hell,’ he said. I said would you believe that you could come to a place and see yourself forty years ago. And that was in effect, you could call that the most happy and unexpected — DH: Yeah. FM: Thing to happen. To find that you, your photograph had been taken and been kept in this, her father’s album. DH: Yeah. FM: And had got to her. Anyway, yes so that was I think that was a jolly tale. You know what I mean. It was a happy one. DH: Yeah. FM: Not a miserable one. A happy one. DH: Well, thank you so much for talking to me, Keith. FM: I could tell you one which is dead funny. Unbelievable but still it happened. You wouldn’t know, couldn’t know but during the war only bottled beer was available. There may have been draft beer in small quantities round about Burton on Trent and places like that but I mean normally bottled was the only beer. And the day we finished operations was a daylight raid so like it wasn’t like coming back in the middle of the night and so we all, we were all going to go down to Market Rasen which was only three and a half miles away. The skipper had arranged transport. He’s the boss now. He’s well thought of on the squadron and he arranged transport so we can drink as much as we like. So we go in to this hotel in Market Rasen. I wish I could remember its name but it’s there. We go in to the bar. It’s quite early. Not in to the bar. Went in, oh no we went in to the smoke room. Didn’t mix. We wanted a big room of our own and there’s seven of us sat around this table and the, and the navigator, Frank who came to see me from Canada who, thirty five years later, but he said, ‘The first round’s on me.’ We didn’t argue about a round. But he walked up to the bar and we could hear him. This young girl came and he said, he said, ‘I want fifty six pint bottles of beer please.’ She said [pause], ‘I’m not joking,’ he said, ‘I want fifty six pint bottles of beer.’ And they were all brought around our table. Eight of us, seven of us, supposed to drink eight each. The skipper could drink one. The navigator could manage twelve. I may have managed my eight at a push, but I think that particular order was the biggest individual order for beer I’ve ever heard placed. DH: Yeah. FM: Yeah. That was Frank. He was going to buy the first round so he did but there was never a second [laughs] Yes. DH: Could you tell me the names of the people on that crew? FM: I can. Very well. Pilot George Davies from Oswestry. Navigator Frank Yate from North Hamilton in, in Ontario. Bomb aimer Freddie [Pittey] from Newbury, trainee, a trainee teacher and went back to become a school teacher. Jock Gilchrist. Jock, obviously mid-upper gunner, Scottish from Ayr. The one, the one we found difficulty keeping in touch with and I don’t know why maybe he got married and moved around was the engineer. I’ll think of his name in a minute. And then the rear gunner was the oldest. Harry [Fay], a cockney from East, East Ham. Harry was the first to die. He had a heart attack and one by one they all dropped off leaving me, yeah. I even kept in touch with the wives. With the widows. The two widows that I mainly, because it was rather amazing when you think of I went to the wedding of the bomb aimer and I went to his silver [pause] Oh, let me think. If he was married in ’46, and I went to his golden wedding, that’s right. That’s right. He was married in ’46. Ninety. Yeah, that’s right. And Phyl was alive of course and at his golden wedding of course we were guests of honour fifty years later. That was one amazing thing. The skipper of course married a New Zealand nurse who then wanted to go home and he didn’t have no interest in his father’s business which was a business that I was in. And when he’d gone and I was living in Oswestry and his mum and dad were still alive in Oswestry, I used to visit them didn’t I? And his dad who used to run this big agricultural, owned it, that George wasn’t interested in because he was a Batchelor of Science in his own right on metallurgy. Anyway, that’s another story. Anyway, his father said to me, ‘Get in touch with your boss and tell him that when I’m ready to retire I want you to buy the business.’ Now, geographically it was perfect. We’d already moved from Oswestry when we bought out a company in Welshpool so one more step to new town was perfect. And it happened. He called me, ‘Come and see me. I want to retire,’ he said, I want to safeguard my staff,’ he said. ‘You get hold of your boss.’ Well I did and of course my boss, the big boss then contacted my boss Ben Richards who’d been with me all the lifetime and we went down and we looked and eventually we bought it. And because of that I was made what you’d call area supervisor, having already taken over Welshpool as well from Oswestry, and the funny thing to think that from that day when George Davis says, ‘You’re from Shropshire.’ ‘Yes.’ ‘I’m a Salopian too. Would you fly with me?’ Comes years later his dad. It’s, you know — DH: It’s amazing, isn’t it? FM: It is. You can’t really believe these things happen. Yes. Yes. I’m glad I’ve got a pretty active memory because sometimes I can enjoy going back on a given period. I don’t have to go back on the lot. I can remember doing something that I never thought you’d do in the wartime. Have you heard of mayday? DH: Of? FM: Mayday. The word mayday. DH: I know what the word mayday means. Yeah. FM: What does it mean? DH: It’s a call for help. FM: Right. It’s also something you don’t use unless you’re in — DH: Trouble. FM: In trouble. And so I called mayday and I had to explain when we got down why, and this was with these trainee pilots. We were out one night in January and we were in a horrendous snowstorm. He quite rightly had lost his way. I could understand that. We got down to, over a big town at about four thousand feet or was it, sorry four hundred feet, and we could recognise it was Cheltenham. I also knew that we were, had a safe flying height over the Cotswolds of fourteen hundred feet, and we were flying at four hundred feet. So I tapped him on the shoulder and I [pause] ‘Oh yes,’ he said. We climbed up, and then we were lost, you know. We were close to home and yet lost so I called, ‘Mayday. Mayday.’ The answer, ‘Your requirements?’ And I just said, ‘Searchlights.’ And within no time the beams came up. We could see them and we came home. Got home. I got away with them. My reasons for mayday. They accepted it. I don’t know whether he got away with having lost, you know. I don’t know. I can’t remember, but I do remember that. Possibly being the most scary night of the, you don’t call mayday once in a lifetime. Yeah. And then have to say, go in front of the intelligence and tell them why you called mayday. A thing unknown. Mayday. Yes. Yes. A bad thunderstorm in an old fashioned aircraft is pretty terrible you know. I mean you can’t see anything. Not like these modern things where you’re, yes, enough of me. You’ll never get home ‘til tomorrow. You get me on my memories and I’ve got so many. So many. DH: Well — FM: I don’t know. DH: If you wanted to chat another time and give me memories that would be wonderful. FM: [unclear] Right. My legs get, slowly but surely they’re deteriorating. You’ve seen that medal haven’t you? That’s the — DH: Let’s have a look. FM: That’s the Legion d’Honneur. DH: Oh yes. That’s beautiful isn’t it? FM: It is. DH: Beautiful. FM: Put that there. DH: Yes. FM: It’s just something. I don’t know if I’ve got it. It won’t take a second to look. I’ll finish my coffee. So many documents that I’ve got which [pause] Different crew members but I don’t want to show you bits and pieces. I thought I’d got a [pause] There’s the skipper. What you can see of him. Only his head. DH: Oh, inside the plane. FM: No. I can’t see there’s anything particular. It’s hard to remember [laughs] I told you we were in civvy billets in Blackpool. DH: Yes [pause] Ah, which one are you? FM: Right in the middle, at the back. DH: Oh right. Oh yes, nuisance. FM: I’ll get it. I’ll get it. DH: All right, love. I did get a little one of the two gunners. The rear and the mid-upper together. FM: Yeah. DH: I’ve got other photographs somewhere dear but I don’t know where they are. FM: Ok. What I’ll do is, if we finish — DH: Yes. FM: If I finish of the interview now. DH: Yeah. FM: And then I’ll explain a few things. Ok. So, thank you very much. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frederick Joseph Keith Martin Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dawn Hughes Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMartinFJK180309 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:41:51 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource Keith Martin was working for an agricultural machinery merchants in Shrewsbury when the war started. This was classed as a reserved occupation but when he was nearly 20, he decided to volunteer for the Royal Air Force in April 1942 and was selected to be a wireless operator/air gunner. Initial training took place in RAF Blackpool, followed by further training at RAF Yatesbury, RAF Ternhill and RAF Calveley. Having been promoted to sergeant he was then posted to 18 Initial Training Wing at RAF Bridgnorth to complete his wireless operator training. Flying training took place at RAF West Freugh and, in October 1943, he was posted to an Operational Training Unit at RAF Hixon flying Wellingtons. It was there that Keith was assigned to an aircrew. As part of their training, in December 1943 Keith’s crew flew their first operation, which was leaflet dropping over Belgium. January 1944 saw a posting to a Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Sandtoft to fly Halifaxes. In April their aircraft had an engine failure on take-off, resulting in a crash landing which wrote it off but injured no-one. He transferred to Lancasters at RAF Hemswell and was then posted to RAF Wickenby. From May he was in an operational squadron. Keith describes the many operations that he carried out, including an operation during which an aircraft below his exploded, and caused his aircraft to go out of control until the pilot recovered control at 2000 feet. In June 1944 he was posted to 300 Squadron. By August his crew had flown 26 operations. On completing his tour, Keith went on to spend a year at the Advanced Flying Unit at RAF South Cerney before volunteering for the Empire Test Pilots’ School at RAF Cranfield. He was finally demobbed in 1946 returning to his pre-war employer, who had kept his job available. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nick Cornwell-Smith Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Belgium France Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Cheshire England--Gloucestershire England--Lancashire England--Shropshire England--Staffordshire England--Yorkshire England--Wiltshire Scotland--Dumfries and Galloway England--Blackpool France--Paris France--Sangatte France--Pas-de-Calais Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942-04-20 1943-05 1943-10 1943-12-30 1944-01 1944-04-06 1944-05-01 1944-06 1944-08-31 1946 1944-07 1944-06-05 1944-06-06 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription 300 Squadron 626 Squadron Advanced Flying Unit aircrew bombing bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944) crash crewing up Halifax Heavy Conversion Unit Initial Training Wing Lancaster Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944) Operational Training Unit propaganda RAF Bridgnorth RAF Calveley RAF Cranfield RAF Hemswell RAF Hixon RAF Sandtoft RAF South Cerney RAF Ternhill RAF West Freugh RAF Wickenby RAF Yatesbury take-off crash training Wellington wireless operator / air gunner https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1039/11411/AMulhallJE160823.2.mp3 673bbe19930c11fe8fca198bcc140a3e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mulhall, James James Edward Mulhall J E Mulhall Description An account of the resource Two oral history interviews with James Mulhall (b. 1924, 224223 Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a flight engineer with 75 Squadron before becoming a prisoner of war. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-08-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mulhall, JE Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document JM1: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Julian Maslin. The interviewee is James Mulhall. The interview is taking place at Mr Mulhall’s home in Heaton Chapel, Stockport on the 25th of August 2016. Jim, could you tell us a little bit about your life before you joined the RAF and what it was that motivated you to enlist? JM2: The main thing I should imagine, I was born in Gorton, at 151 Hyde Road, which was my grandmother’s house and subsequent schooling was at Catholic schools, the last one being St Roberts in Longsight. I, er, was tending towards mechanical things at a fairly early age but I was apprenticed as a plumber to a man called Frank Butler for some years before the Blitz became something of a nuisance in Manchester. So, it was while I was in — my sister and mother used to nip down to the Anderson shelter in the garden but I was too lazy to do this and used to stay in bed, until a bomb dropped nearby which decapitated a man in the next street and forced me under the bed, and I didn’t like this idea at all, so I decided when the time was ripe I’d join the Air Force and get a little bit of my own back. So, er, this is how it transpired I became an Air Force [slight cough] member. The — I was inaugurated at Dover Street in Manchester, went to Padgate for initial training, was sent to Skegness for the usual square bashing and then on from there to St Athan to train as a mechanic, and from there back to Henlow to assemble hurricanes as a mechanic. They came over from Canada in boxes and we put them together, put the wings on and flew them off to squadrons. From there on I decided — well, I was able to go into aircrew and I went back to St Athan to train as a flight engineer and that began the system that we’re talking about now. JM1: Thank you and what year was that please? JM2: 1942. In November I joined up and I left in February 1946. JM1: Right. From St Athan did you go straight to an Operational Training Unit? JM2: We went to, er, RAF Stradishall to con on Stirlings because I was trained on Stirlings. Spent thirteen weeks, believe it or not, in learning every nook and cranny of this aircraft which was a horrible, awful airplane from my point of view, all electrical and a real nuisance to get about because of this. It had four radial engines, twin row, fourteen cylinder, sleeve-valve, air-cooled engines which are a nightmare to maintain. However, while, whilst doing Con Unit we got the opportunity or were offered to change to Lancasters which we did to a place called Feltwell. And while everybody else’s job was the same, mine was totally different. I had four liquid cooled, twelve cylinder, in line engines to cope with as well as completely diff— different systems of doughty and pressure volumes for the various systems in the aircraft. I got a fortnight to do this and I didn’t enjoy it at all I must admit so presumably I learnt as I went along in Con Unit more or less and got away with it fortunately. JM1: When you were operating Lancasters did you work closely with the ground engineers? JM2: That was my job entirely [emphasis]. The rest of the crew weren’t interested in the aeroplane as a mechanical object. All they were interested in really was in flying in it. But my liaison with the ground crew was uppermost in this system because I had to go to every morning, well at least after every operation, after I had a sleep to go and run the engines and get the aircraft ready for flight either that afternoon or evening and sign the 700, which I might point out was always the pilot’s duty in the years before, but when it came to four-engine aircraft and the flight engineer being trained to look after these systems he [emphasis] had to sign the 700, which for a nineteen-year-old was quite a, a thing to do because it hands the aircraft over to me, away from the ground crew. They then relinquish all [slight cough] responsibility for it so, yes, I had a great deal to do with the ground crew. JM1: And when you were posted to 75 Squadron — I’ll go back a bit. When you crewed up with your crew how was that done please? JM2: [laugh] In the most ambiguous way you can imagine. The crew had been working together as a crew, six members, flying Wimpys, Vickers Wellingtons, and so were well acquainted with one another over a period of two or three months I would imagine. Then one evening, when we’d passed out as engineers, they assembled all these crews that they intended to crew up with the engineers into the theatre at St Athan, which was quite a massive affair, and when they were all seated nattering to themselves us crews were ushered in and said, ‘Go and find yourself a crew.’ [laugh] We were flabbergasted there’s no doubt about it. Literally we were faced with all these pancake faces who we didn’t know from Adam and had to sort ourselves out and I finished up by going up to one chap I fancied the look of and I said, ‘Do you fancy me as an engineer?’ And he turned out to be Hugh Rees and he said, ‘Certainly. What’s your name?’ I said, ‘James Mul—’ ‘No.’ He said, ‘What’s your name?’ ‘Oh.’ I said, ‘Jim’. He said, ‘Well, I’m Hugh, this is Westie and this is Rees [?].’ And that’s how we went from there on in and it worked. JM1: That’s remarkable isn’t it? JM2: It surprised me I must admit. JM1: It must have been difficult for you in that, in that atmosphere. It must have been very stressful. JM2: I was very much the new boy with the cloak of fear, as you might say, surrounding the whole thing, yeah. JM1: And were you then posted to 75 Squadron? JM2: No. We had to con from there on in. We went to Stradashall to start flying Stirlings. All of us being strangers to that aeroplane and it was whilst we were there that the offer came. Well, more or less it came nearly as an order to tra— because of the losses in Bomber Command on Lancasters, which had a, a height minimum of five foot six before and I was five foot five and a half and others were small, as small as me, particularly the gunners, and, er, from there on in we transferred to Lancasters at a place called Feltwell and, as I’ve already said, that was the initial inauguration with the aeroplane and we had to come to terms with it from there on in. JM1: But the posting to the squadron was something that you didn’t have any choice about. You, you were posted to 75? JM2: No. We didn’t have any choice from that, no. We were posted as a crew to 75 Squadron. JM1: And of course 75 was unusual because it was a New Zealand Squadron. JM2: It was but there was a pretty scarcity of New Zealanders on the base, whether from losses or otherwise, I wouldn’t know. We had one New Zealander, New Zealander in our crew, and that was Westie, the bomb aimer. Westie his name was. A pretty ferocious character in his way and he wouldn’t mind me saying this but, er, he was always looking for trouble [laugh]. I never got on with him really because as he was on Stirlings he was second pilot on the Stirling where I was posted way, halfway, down the fuselage with all my gear as the flight engineer, but when we conned on Lancasters I [emphasis] became the second pilot and, unfortunately, Westie was dismissed into the bomb pit and he never got over this, so if he could drop me in the fertiliser he would do [laugh] and on some occasions did. JM1: In what way? JM2: Well, we came home one night and it was nearly dark and I was always last out the aeroplane. I had a lot of breakers and stuff to do and gather things up and I was always last out the aeroplane. As everybody else got out as quickly as they could, you know, to breathe the fresh air from the confines of the aeroplane and, er, when I came to get out of the rear door there’s no ladder. There used to be a little short ladder there and it’s about five, six foot to the ground and I said, ‘Where’s the ladder? Well, I don’t know. It must have fell out.’ Colloquial language to that effect and I didn’t get any reply from the darkness and I thought, ‘Somebody’s playing up or what. Come on.’ Anyway, I thought, ‘Oh, never mind.’ And I threw my bag out to one side so I wouldn’t drop on it when I jumped out. Decided to make the jump in the darkness, completely black, and I did so and landed in the largest puddle you’d ever seen in your life, to roars of laughter from everybody roundabout. So that’s one of the instances where Westie set me up and there were others of course along the way. JM1: Did you get your own back? JM2: Eventually. Unhappily [laugh] but anyway that’s another story. JM1: OK. So once you were posted to 75 Squadron. That was at Mepal? JM2: Meth— Mepal. JM1: Mepal. Mepal. Could you tell us what it was like serving at Mepal in Cambridgeshire? What sort of a, a base was it? JM2: It was a bit rough and ready. It’s, er, it was a satellite drome. Witchford was next door and Waterbeach was about ten or fifteen miles away. It was the parent aerodrome at that time. It was a bit uncomfortable in its way. The food was alright but the Nissan huts we were put, billeted in had no heating. We had a little potbellied stove which we used to steal coke to try and get warm and we used to steal it from the cookhouse, which we weren’t very popular with, er, but warmth was always at a premium on the base particularly in the later months, October and November, but the villagers were very good and fortunately I struck up an acquaintance with one of a girls in the village, so that made life a lot more pleasant [laugh] at 75. JM1: Was it one crew per Nissan hut or more than one crew per Nissan hut? JM2: We had two and sometimes spare bodies but there was no more than two full crews in a Nissan hut. JM1: And did you ever have occasions where you had returned but the other crew were lost? JM2: Unfortunately, yes, on many occasions when they came round, the SPs, Special Police, came round bundling up the kit into bags and emptying the lockers, and we knew then that, er, not only were they missing but they weren’t expected to come back. JM1: How did you cope with that as a crew and as an individual? JM2: We were all very young, you see, and you, you tend to adapt. I was only nineteen and I don’t think anybody was older than about twenty-two or twenty-three. In fact, the skipper was a month younger than I was. Fancy being in command of a Lancaster at nineteen years of age. Hugh Rees was his name. In fact, my son-in-law is in contact with his son at this particular time, yeah. So, er, you cope with it. Its empty tables around the mess for, for meals. Empty seats was another thing you learnt to cope with, so — but as I say being young you just adapted. You were thankful to survive. JM1: Can we turn now to your operations? Could you tell us a bit about your first operation? How you felt and what happened? JM2: [slight laugh] It was, er, a daylight raid to the U-Boat pens at St Nazaire and as we were under radar, flying at under two thousand feet, and only climbing to the operational height of ten thousand as we approached the target. As we were the third wave in we were startled to see the sky literally black with ak-ak puff smokes and as a green crew this, er, didn’t look very pleasant to us at all but we were to learn of course that these weren’t the things which we were to worry about. It was the ones that we didn’t see that we had to worry about. However, we got through the, the business of dropping the load on the U-Boat pens, notwithstanding seeing a flamer on the left and a flamer on the right, going down both the port and starboard sides, which wasn’t encouraging. However, we got through it and the frightening period [unclear]. We were never ever that frightened again, I don’t think, in targets unless we were coned over search— over on the run in to Rüsselsheim we were coned by searchlights and that was a pretty scary time because we were blinded by the searchlights. We couldn’t see a thing, ducking and weaving and we managed to outfly them with little damage. That was another scary raid but most of them were just enduring the cold and getting through the operation as safely as possible. JM1: So, when you came back from that first trip to St Nazaire, how long did you have before you had your second operation? JM2: Oh, I can’t remember that. I think it was about three or four days. The battle order used to be posted up on the, on the mess door, and that was always the thing we looked at first when we got up in the morning before breakfast. Check the battle order, see if you were on it and, er, that’s four or five days I think. Let us settle down before they flung us in again. JM1: If you, if you were flying that night, if you were on operations, your day would start quite early as the flight engineer presumably, helping getting everything ready? JM2: Yeah, yeah. Even if I weren’t on battle order I’d still be going up to flights to check the aircraft and see if anything needed rectifying in, in the meantime even if we weren’t. I can only remember two occasions when we weren’t on the battle order, to be quite candid. So, er, we pulled our weight I think. JM1: I’m sure you did. How many of your operations were daylight operations? JM2: Oh, I can’t remember that now. JM1: Roughly. JM2: I’d say about ten. Nine or ten operations were in daylight, yeah. JM1: And when you first started to operate at night did that give you as an engineer extra problems in terms of reading the gauges and controlling the engines and the fuel? JM2: Well, I had to make a log out every twenty minutes and so I had to use a shaded torch to do this. I might have taken my gloves off incidentally which was a dangerous practice. We all had three sets off gloves, silk, cotton and leather and these we kept on all the time until I had to make log out when I had to take the gauntlet and the, er, cotton gloves off so that I could write my log out easily with a pencil and the shaded light. But there was a danger in this, in-as-much-as, the outside temperature of the aircraft round about twenty-two thousand, twenty-four thousand feet was often minus forty degrees, and this meant that the skin of the aircraft and metal things inside it was a similar thing, and if you happened to not use our gloves — and Tee Emm used to report this often enough — and reach for the tank cocks in a rush realising you should have changed cocks before. If you got hold of those with your bare hands that’s where you stayed because the sweat on your hands froze, your fingers, to any metal you touched near the skin of the aircraft. So, I was always careful to keep my gloves on obvious. But some engineers wouldn’t write with cotton gloves on and there were a number of occasions when this happened and was reported in the aircrew magazine of Tee Emm, pointing out the dangers of not doing this. JM1: So, Tee Emm was an official document or an unofficial? JM2: It was an official document, a magazine, circulated to aircrew. [laugh] The editor being Pilot Officer Prune who was always subject to these kind of things, yeah. JM1: And for the record I think it was TEE EMM, wasn’t it? TEE EMM. JM2: Yes, TEE EMM. JM1: Thank you. And, in order to do your duties when the aircraft was flying, you wouldn’t be keeping still, you’d be walking up and down the side of the cockpit to the various controls? JM2: I had a little collapsible seat, which I used I could, but most of the time because I had to reach behind for tank cocks and checking gauges the engineer’s panel was behind the seat on the star— on the starboard side of the aircraft. So it was a nuisance to keep getting up out of the seat. I used to stand most of the time and just lean down with my shaded torch, and flash it slightly, and the luminosity from the gauges would tell me what was going on. JM1: Did you have any occasions where your aircraft had to return because of mechanical problems so you didn’t complete a sortie? JM2: No. But we had one occasion I once lost an engine entirely in a Stirling but that’s a different story. The — I once had a CSU go geodetic, which meant that I couldn’t change the pitch, the revs, of the engine concerned, which was the starboard outer, and I reported this. We would take-off roughly at three thousand thousand RPM plus four boost, and we can maintain that for up to nine minutes, but then we have to reduce the revs to take the wear out of the engine, and this was my job to reduce it to climbing power once we’d reached the required height, but I couldn’t shut down the rev counter. I said, ‘This is going to make the engine overtired in its way and become a danger to the aeroplane and I suggest that we return.’ So the pilot said, ‘What can you do about this?’ And I said, ‘Nothing really. I can’t. It’s gone geodetic at the engine end and I can’t pull the lever back so I can’t reduce the revs.’ I said, ‘All I can do is try to keep it cool with a little bit of boost now and then and just hope it doesn’t exceed the limits of heat that it can stand. Because if it does it will cease and the prop will fly off and it will probably come in our direction if this occurs. It might even shake itself out of the bearings. I don’t know. I’ve never had a ceased up engine. I’ve never had a runaway before.’ So he said, ‘Well do the best you can. We’ll press on.’ I thought, ‘This was a rash decision in my opinion but there’s nothing I can do. He’s the captain of the aircraft.’ Fortunately, within half an hour we had an abort. The raid was called off, so we were able to run back to the aerodrome with an emergency and land with the aircraft running at full revs. That engine run for an hour and half at full revs and never missed a beat. Congratulations Rolls Royce. It was changed of course but, er, incredible really for an engine of that size. JM1: Jim, Jim could I ask you to explain what you mean the word “boost” for those listening? JM2: Oh, this is a question of pumping more fuel into the cylinders to improve the volume metric efficiency of the engine at that time. Plus four gives us the best we can do. Plus two is what we usually fly at. Our normal air speed is a hundred and eighty, hundred and ninety knots and it depends on height really how much you can boost but plus two is normal at two thousand two hundred revs. JM1: Your memory, your memory for operating the Lancaster is remarkable. JM2: Sometimes, in the dark hours [slight laugh], it seems like yesterday. JM1: Jim, could you tell us a little bit about the atmosphere in the aeroplane when you were operating at night over Germany or enemy occupied Europe. What was it like there? JM2: Its — you have to remember that there’s literally hundreds of aircraft converging on one target and the risk of collision at night is very, very high and this is one of the things that I think we feared most. In fact, on one occasion, we had on the bomb run, we had six incendiaries from another aeroplane hit our aeroplane because they were above us at a height they shouldn’t have been at, presumably to escape the — most of the flak, which was at operational height, and those incendiaries only failed to ignite because the pins were frozen in. They have a — it’s, about two foot long but hexagonal in shape and the igniter pin sticks out at the side but they’re held in by straps when they’re carried in the canisters that were in the aeroplane, but when they‘re released this little pin springs out so that when they hit the ground the detonator will go off and the magnesium will flare, but because they were frozen in they didn’t ignite when they hit our aircraft. So that was — we, I fished one out from underneath the navigator’s table. One of them knocked my engineer’s pile [?] down on the starboard side and one finished up on the platform of the mid upper gunner’s position. None of them ignited but three others were found by the ground crew piercing each wing and where the tail — the rudder stands up and the tail plane is horizontal — right in that nick there was another incendiary buried in that nick. Why, why the rudder didn’t come off I don’t know [laugh] but that, that was a case of being very close to another aeroplane at night. It was a fear most of us carried I think, collision at night. In fact, er, there’s one instance of we actually saw another plane below us because of the fires on the target. What he was doing down there I don’t know but he was below us. Fortunately he was to one side. But we could see him he was silhouetted against the flare of the fires and we were on the bomb run. What he was doing there I don’t know. I hope he got away with it. Most of it was radio silence because you had to keep intercom clear for emergencies. JM1: I was just going to ask about that and how did you address one another? Was it pilot to flight engineer or was it first names? JM2: No, it was always by the designation: pilot, engineer, bomb aimer, mid upper, wireless op, whatever, to make it clear who you were talking to and who was talking to you. JM1: Yes. Did you have any, um, attacks from night fighters during your operational tour? JM2: Curiously enough we were flying — when we went to Stettin, we overflew Denmark and Norway and our mid upper who was forty-two years old and well above the age for flying — he should — flying’s limited to people of thirty-five years. How he got away with that I don’t know. He must have been [unclear] somewhere. He had the finest eyesight I ever came across and while we were going over Norway he happened to see a flare path and we what? We were round about ten thousand feet I think. We weren’t too high. And these neutral countries used to fire flak up towards us but always well away from us, never with any no intention of shooting us down, but a token resistance as it were. And he happened to see a flare path at that distance and an aircraft with its nav lights on, going along that flare path, and he warned the skipper of this and he actually, he kept its nav lights on for quite some while, in fact until it was about a thousand feet below us when it switched off. It was obviously being vectored onto us and we watched it rise up along the side of us until our mid upper said to the rear gunner, Charlie, not rear gunner, but Charlie, ‘Let me have the first squirt at it.’ [slight laugh] And it actually rose alongside us about a hundred yards away with the pilot obviously looking upwards to look for our exhaust flames. We’d got eight blue exhaust flames going underneath the aircraft wing which were easily seen at night, particularly from underneath, and he must have been looking for those and not either side of himself. And both gunners had a, what they called, a squirt at it and it fell away but they didn’t, they only claimed a probable. We didn’t know what happen to it but it certainly fell away. JM1: Had you ever discuss as a crew whether you would [emphasis] open fire because I know some gunners decided not to because they were afraid of drawing attention to themselves? JM2: Well, funnily enough, we got some tracer coming towards us when we were getting close to the target and we didn’t know what, where it was coming from, but it passed underneath us. But the following day the ground crew dug a 303 bullet out of the tail wheel rims, so it was obviously a friendly aircraft. And the tail wheel had the double rims on it to stop it shimmying and it was that thickness of rubber that caught the, the bullet and they were able to dig it out and prove that it was a 303. So it was a friendly aircraft that had a go at us for some reason. JM1: How about the weather that you experienced on operations? JM2: This was always a problem. You’ll get ten tenths cloud over the target. Yeah, tell that to the marines. It was obviously ten tenths all the way, you know. There’s another thing flying in cloud that used to be unnerving to say the least, even in daylight, because you never know — people — we had a direction compass on but you never know when there’s a fault and an aircraft will drift in your path, yeah. In fact, often enough, you would hit the slip stream of an aircraft in front of you and you’d would drop easily four, six hundred feet like a brick because you’ve got no airflow over your wings with the turbulent air that you met in the slip stream, and that used to pin me against the roof of the canopy in no uncertain terms so, er, apart from the cursing [?] we got used to it. JM1: [slight laugh] Did you ever have to land in very bad conditions? JM2: Only once. We were diverted by fog to a fighter aerodrome. I forget what — North Weald I think it was — however, the short runway meant that it was a bit of a hairy do to get, to get it down on a short runway which our skipper was pretty good at and made a good job of it. Unfortunately, their ground crew did not know anything about Lancasters, so it fell to me to climb up the following morning, up into the cells. In each cell there’s a little calor gas pump which you have to prime the engine with before you try and start it, and in full flying gear I had to climb up on the main wheel and operate these things, using the bomb aimer as communication between me and the cockpit, and the ground crew with a starter [unclear] and that was a real sweaty job believe me. Up in the confines pumping this calor gas until we got the engines started. I think that was another time when Westie dropped me in it, maybe did it twice. So I had to do that in both the cells and I was sweating like a pig when I got back into the aircraft. But that was the only problem with landing in a different aerodrome, the short runway and having to do the mechanics myself, yeah. JM1: As, as the tour progressed did, did you feel that you were more or less likely to complete the tour? JM2: I don’t think we, I don’t think we thought about it really until the last four. When, when we’d done the thirty we thought, what shall I say? We, we were testing fate there a bit. We were pushing the boat out a bit but we were determined to finish as a crew so we, we carried on with the odd four but as I say which turned out to be a fatal decision. JM1: Because members of the crew had not been able to do all the flights in sequence. One or two were injured or sick? JM2: That’s right. As I said before our bomb — our, er, wireless operator picked up some shrapnel over the Walcheren Islands and he was in hospital at the time and we had the signals leader with us. It was his one hundredth operation and you can imagine his mind, mind when he had to bail out at that time, [slight cough] notwithstanding the fact we all had to do. Jm1: Will you tell us about that last operation please? Jm2: It’s, er — we were due to pick up which was known as a yellow tail, which had special Oboe equipment for, er, target finding, and this was supposed to be done over Lincoln. We were supposed to be number two in a vic of three with any loose aeroplanes fitting the box afterwards. The box formation was for fighter defence [slight cough] primarily but unfortunately we didn’t pick up a yellow tail over Lincoln and we had to settle for going in the box, which was unpleasant place to be really, and we continued to target in this way until on the run in to target we got [slight cough] caught by what was known as predictive flak. This is four guns controlled by radar, which fired a burst of four shells, and if we’d been able to manoeuvre it was fairly easy to avoid but because we weren’t able to manoeuvre — it’s usually about seven to nine seconds between bursts so if the first burst missed you you’ve got this moment in time to change the aircraft latitude, speed or location so that the next burst doesn’t find you where you should be. So, you get used to this system and its fairly easy to devoid, to avoid predictive flak, but we were stuck in the box and not able to move and it slowly crept up, as reported by the rear gunner, getting close and closer, until one shell went through the back of the aircraft, without exploding, fortunately enough, but took away the bunch of controls that lead to the rudders and elevators and part of the tail plane and made the aircraft virtually uncontrollable. At this point they were — it was decided with the damage so obvious that to turn away out of the stream and, er, as the bomb doors were still closed, the bomb aimer did — went through his jettison programme but it doesn’t matter because until the bomb doors are fully open the bomb aimer’s gear will not work for obvious reasons. If he dropped them with the doors closed it would tear the bottom of the aircraft out [slight cough]. So, it was my job to open the bomb doors and jettison the bomb because Westie already gone. He didn’t hang about. He’d gone. Jm1: Went out through the front hatch? JM2: Yes. He jettisoned the hatch and went out there and I went behind the pilot’s seat where my parachute was. We had clip-on parachutes. The, the skipper had a sit on parachute. He had a base parachute and he sits on his. So, as I went to get it out of the rack the, er, the navigator and the wireless operator went past me and out through the hatch and I [unclear] harness pin and I went through the hatch as well. And the skipper had apparently had — I met him later on in Dulag Luft, near Frankfurt, in — his fingernails were all torn where he was — the aircraft went into a vicious spin as soon as he let out the ailerons. That was the only control he had, was ailerons, and he went out through the top hatch but he had quite a struggle against the slip stream because it was pinning him to the fuselage with the increased speed. He must have been doing well over two hundred miles an hour, two-fifty miles an hour when he was trying to get out the hatch, which we didn’t have because we went out through the bottom hatch. JM1: And the gunners went through the rear door didn’t they? Jm2: Indeed. In fact, I heard them both say, ‘Rear gunner leaving.’ And, ‘Mid upper leaving.’ But funnily enough the mid upper, the, the rear gunner has no memory of leaving and wasn’t completely conscious until about 5 o’clock that night and yet I clearly heard him say, ‘Rear gunner leaving.’ JM1: And what height were you when you bailed out? Jm2: We were twenty-two thousand [unclear] and I’d say we were between eighteen and twenty thousand or something like. It didn’t take very long. JM1: No. When you came down tell us what happened when you landed please. Jm2: I got my rigging lines a little bit crossed and I was trying to untangle the rigging lines and did so, managed to do so, and then I blacked out through lack of oxygen, lack of oxygen. I’d been without the oxygen for quite some time in the manoeuvring inside the aeroplane and I just blacked out through lack of oxygen and I didn’t come to until, oh, about four thousand, three thousand feet or so from the ground and I hit rather hard on a bunch of rubble and the Wehrmacht was waiting for me as a reception committee and I was a bit knocked about a bit and I came too really being frog-marched into a police station in Niebruch [?] and stuffed into an underground cell there. JM1: Were the other members of your crew there? JM2: No, on my own. We were widely separated because of the difference in bailing out. Jm1: Right. Jm2: [clears throat] I don’t know where the others landed although I must have been told when we met at up Dulag Luft. I can’t remember now. JM1: How were you treated by the Wehrmacht? JM2: The, er, the ordinary soldiers I think, I think they were a blessing in disguise because they kept the civilians away from us who were naturally a bit unchuffed about all this business. And, er, but I was put in a cell. They took my flying boots off me and put me in this bare board cell which was underground and, er, I didn’t have anything to eat for, er, quite some while. The following day the, er, sergeant of the police elected to interrogate me, by the simple means of sitting me in front of him at his desk, un-holstering his luger, sliding the [clears throat] breech back, pushing the safety catch off and pointing the barrel at me as he laid it on his desk, which felt a bit uncomfortable because I’ve fired a luger and know how hair trigger they are. So with him speaking German and me speaking English we didn’t get very far I must admit so we gave it up as a bad job and I went back in the cell. But, er, the following night I was moved from there to a Luftwaffe aerodrome on the back of a lorry and in the darkness [laugh] a voice said, ‘Have you got a fag, mate.’ Which I didn’t. The soldiers that picked me up took my wristwatch off me and pinched my cigarettes. I had a pack of cigarettes. They took the cigarettes out and put the cigarette case back in my pocket, surprisingly, but they pinched my cigarettes. I said, ‘No, I haven’t mate, sorry.’ But it turned out to be a Canadian gunner who’d gone down presumably nearby in the same raid. I said, ‘No I haven’t mate. I’m sorry.’ Anyway after a short journey through the all the rubble in the city. [unclear] used to clear a road through cities just to get transport through and they put me in this Luftwaffe transport base in a cell in, er, this ready room and whilst I was in there — I hadn’t had anything to eat for two days by then or drink — and one of the, er, Luftwaffe members, one of the ground crew saw me eyeing up his meal, er, two slices of bread and butter with molasses in. He saw me eyeing this up and he came over and give me [clears throat] half of it and this turned me really. It was the only kindness I ever saw off a German throughout me — in fact, it made me quite emotional, as I am now. He gave half his lunch to an enemy you might say, mm. JM1: That’s quite something isn’t it? JM2: It was for me, mm. JM1: Yes and from there you went to Dulag Luft? JM2: Yes. Frankfurt am Main for interrogation, er, ten days isolation, solitary confinement, in a ten by eight foot cell, which had a little window barred up, high up, and the only communication was a lever you had inside the inside wall which, when you turned it, dropped a signal out on the outside in the corridor to let the guard know that you wanted to come out for some reason or other. That’s the only communication you had with the outside world for ten days, apart from meals that were brought to you. JM1: And you were interrogated again at Dulag Luft? Jm2: Yeah. [slight laugh] The — I think there was a bit of smartness there because the — while I was being interrogated, the usual rank, name and number, and trying invoke information off you which I didn’t have much of any way. I didn’t have much to tell but what there was wasn’t worth telling so I didn’t bother. But during this, imagine I’m quite scruffy and dirty and unshaven and they brought in a young woman, a stenographer of some kind, to jot down the answers, all glammed up to the eyebrows, to make me feel as uncomfortable as possible, which it certainly did. [laugh] I felt a real scruffy object in front of this glamorous female. Yeah, a bit of psychological warfare there. JM1: I, I’ve read that sometimes the interviewers, the interrogators, knew more about the squadron than you did. Did you get that? JM2: They did. They told me who my flight was and who my flight commander was. Another psychological trick I would imagine but I was aware enough by then. I’d had a few meals and I didn’t respond to it. There’s no point. If you respond to it they pump you harder. You were told about this. The more you give away, the more they pump you, so you keep your mouth shut. JM1: And where did you go from Dulag Luft please? JM2: Stalag Luft VII in Upper Silesia, Poland. Quite chilly and that. It was December by then. JM1: This was December 1944? JM2: Yes. JM1: Yes and what was it like in that camp? JM2: A bit rough and ready. Food was the real problem. Food was always the main topic t of conversation in captivity because you never got enough of it and what the Germans doled out was pretty rough. Their sauerkraut was — I wouldn’t have give it to a dog but we’d have it. We ate it in most cases. We had what was known as pea soup and we used to separate the peas, and inside each pea there used to be a little tiny beetle, and we used to split the pea open and open the people [?] and get a little row of tiny beetles and we would save them while we scoffed the peas. Believe me this is quite true. JM1: I believe you. JM2: It’s hardly credible from a civilian point of view but beetle soup it became known as, yeah. Hunger was always the problem. JM1: And Red Cross parcels? JM2: Infrequent and, er, often we had to share one parcel between four or two and not, not, not — very few of them. In fact, there’s a record of them in here that, er, of the people who kept diaries. David’s done a log of the times that we’d done but it’s hardly worth bothering with now. JM1: David is your son-in-law? JM2: Yes. He is indeed. He’s the instigator of all this stuff except for the models. I brought the models in. JM1: Were you concerned that your family should know that you were still alive? JM2: That was another thing. They were allowed to write one letter, for the Red Cross gave us one air mail letter to write to our families, which I understand my mother never got for some reason or other, and from the telegram she got when I was posted missing she heard nothing from, for six months, almost the entire captivity period, except for a couple in Scotland, who had a, a fairly powerful short wave radio and they used to listen to the prisoners recorded by the Red Cross as being prisoners of war and my name was mentioned on one of these broadcasts, and they took the trouble to find out from the Air Force where my mother lived and informed her I was alive and well at that time, but for all that period she didn’t know whether I was alive or dead. JM1: And what about camp entertainment? How did you spend your time? JM2: [Laugh] Oh, er, we rigged up what was known as a, a pantomime for Christmas and called it “Pantomania” because we were all blokes in it and one amusing incident came out of that. We had a pirate scene and we organised a cannon, er, that was all papier-mâché and tubes of all sorts of things and at the back an elastic flap, which would propel a, a black ball of paper out the muzzle and this was coordinated with a flash of, um, magnesium. I don’t know where the hell they got the magnesium from. I’ve no idea. But they had it anyway. We used to get people working out. They used to pinch things all over the place. However, during the pantomime we turned this, the — they allowed us to run this pantomime provided a number of German officers could watch what was going on and, er, not allow anything what they didn’t like. [slight cough] However, we managed to turn this cannon in this scene, fire the ball of — black ball towards the audience with the flash, and this made the German officers jump up and quickly snatch their lugers out and start waving them about, wondering what the heck was going on. And it was only a black ball of paper but they stopped the show and it as quite some time until we persuaded them to let us get on with it. So that was an amusing incident that came out of it [slight laugh]. JM1: Was there any talk of escape at this stage in the war? JM2: Well, they found a tunnel under the, er, under the stage where we were. It wasn’t much of a tunnel but they found it under the stage and there was a number of organisations in the camp, which I was never part of, that leant themselves towards this idea but nobody — it was too near the end of the war to chance anything particularly dangerous. I admired one chap, one particular at Colditz. They used to — they organised a playing field away from the castle, down below the castle heights. They managed to persuade the Germans to let them have a game of football because the quadrangle was too small at Colditz and they did this a number of times until somebody had the bright idea of pole vaulting over the wire fence that they surrounded this playing field with. And he took the sections of the pole vault down his trousers, assembled it on the playing field, and pole vaulted over the wire and made a home run home from that daring escape so late in the war, yeah. Incredible that, weren’t it? That was a record by the way. JM1: Incredible. I get the impression the morale of RAF personnel was quite high in the camp? Jm2: Yes, yes it was pretty good, yeah, I would, I would say so. The [laugh] one amusing incident came when we first went there, at Stalag Luft VII, we were on the same level as the sentries patrolling outside the wire but the various tunnels or starting tunnels that they did, we used to have to drop the soil out through our trouser legs on the walk around the edge of the camp, the periphery we had to, used to, walk round for exercise. They used to allow us so far away from the goon boxes, about fifty yards or so away, and the number — they, they took so much earth and we dropped so much earth through the bags in our trousers, walking round, that we found ourselves above the level of the sentries outside the wire. [laugh] Would you believe? [slight laugh] JM1: Incredible. JM2: Incredible. We didn’t realise this at first until we found ourselves looking down on the sentries walking round the wire. JM1: Just before we move on, you’ve, you’ve mention a couple of phrases I think need clarifying. Goon boxes? JM2: Ah, these were stationed every, I would say hundred yards or so, round the perimeter wire of the yard [?] and they stood up on stilts, about roughly fifteen feet or so above ground level, on a, on a narrowing tower. Each contained a searchlight and a machine gun and two serving officers, Wehrmacht officers, er, Wehrmacht personnel. So that, er, if you — there was a, a trip wire about fifty yards inside the main wire which you must not [emphasis] step over on fear of being shot at, night or day, and this searchlight was used at night to patrol this area at night, and you certainly would be shot at. In fact one person was shot at while I was there and he was killed. I think he went a bit mental and went scrambling up the wire and they shot him. JM1: Now that’s different from the box that you were describing when you flew to the target. That’s a formation? An aircraft formation? JM2: Yes. A vic, a three vic, an aircraft of three in a vic and the box at the back that we were in for the fighter protection. JM1: So it’s an aircraft formation? JM2: Yes. JM1: And the yellow tail I think. Can you just explain that for the record please? JM2: It was known as G-H bars [?]. Why? I have no idea. I don’t know what the latter stands for but the aircraft that carried yellow stripes on the rudder had this Oboe equipment which guided them to the target more accurately than anything up to that day. JM1: So we’re dealing with navigation and target finding electronic equipment? JM2: Yes. JM1: So, can we turn now to the fact that you were one of those who was released and were on the Long March? JM2: Yes. That was — we warned about this for some while, er, when we were doing the pantomime which was just before Christmas, but the Russians were, er, getting fairly close to the camp at this stage. By close I mean about fifty miles or so and the Germans were getting a bit edgy and it came out later that Hitler was pulling all POWs back towards Berlin, presumably to use them as some kind of hostages. But however, we were turned out once and then sent back into the billets, er, in January but then on, I think it was the 19th of January, at half past three in the morning, to start the march which was, turned out to be two hundred and ninety-seven kilometres in a snow bound country in Upper Silesia in Poland when Poland was experiencing the worst winter it had ever known. It was just a wasteland wherever you looked. The only indication of road that we were on was the telegraph wires that were on poles alongside the road to indicate where the road was that we were supposed to be on, often trudging through quite deep snow, which was trodden down by — I think there was about two thousand-odd of us on the march — but two thousand, two hundred and ninety-seven kilometres in twenty-one days, a hundred and eighty miles, which was quite a feat by people who were half-starved. In fact a lot of men died on that particular march. Jm1: And where did you end up at? Jm2: A place called Luckenwalde about fifteen kilometres south of Berlin and, er, we, we became in the middle of a shell swap between the Germans and the Russians at one time. In fact one, one Russian shell, presumably it was Russian, landed in our compound and exploded harmlessly, as it happened, but by this time the German guards had gone away from the camp and left the camp to us. They had retreated to their own lines, or whatever, and we were running the camp ourselves at that particular time. And, er, eventually these Russians came and mowed down the wire and said, ‘You’re free now.’ And liberated us and the following day put the wire up again and contained us, which was a bit of a [unclear] at the time as we had no contract, transport and we had nowhere to go so we just had to stay in camp until eventually the Americans stopped the Russians from crossing the Elbe back into their territory until the Russians allowed us [emphasis] to cross the Elbe back into American territory. Then the Americans sent lorries and picked us up and took us back to their territory. JM1: And how did you get home from Germany? JM2: We were flown from, er, Leipzig. They took us by lorry to Leipzig, to a German wireless school at the time, and then they flew us to Brussels in the courses [?] and then from there flew us home in Lancasters, eight at a time, back to England. JM1: And that was your last flight in a Lancaster was it? JM2: It was indeed, yes [slight laugh]. Not a very comfortable one on my side because I knew there was a little — we were strung along the aircraft, nose to tail, eight of us, to try a keep the centre of gravity in the aircraft, and I got myself near the wireless ops’ window because I knew there was a little window there I could look out. I was a crafty arse. And I was looking through this, timing the crossing and more or less from anybody who had a watch and I thought we should be seeing — and I saw the Seven Sisters in the distance and I said, a pal [?] said, ‘Pass it along. We can see Seven Sisters. We’re almost there.’ With that everyone had to have a look [slight laugh] and then about five minutes later the pilot sent the wireless operator back and said, ‘Tell the lads we can see Seven Sisters.’ [laugh] Oh, dear. This isn’t the end of the tale. When we came to Cosford we realised from the engine, well, all of us realised from the engine notes that we were in finals and the silence from the engine cooked, not knowing we were near touchdown, and we bounced along the runway like a ping pong ball. Oh lordie me, I forgot what — g-doing, g-doing, g-doing. I thought, ‘When are we going to finish this lot.’ You know. I don’t know how long but it seemed forever to me and finally we were rolling along comfortably [laugh] and the wireless op said, ‘I’ve come to tell you we’ve landed lads.’ Dear, oh dear. I don’t know who the pilot was, bless him. Jm1: [laugh] So, once you got back you had some survivor’s leave? JM2: Yes. Well, we had to go through all the uniform delousing and stuff like this that was going on and, er, what were we doing? We got a fortnights’ leave, yeah, and sent home. [laugh] I remember coming home with the kit on my back, a kit bag full of gear, all brand new gear, and it was night and I got home, knocked on my front door and my sister, pardon the — my sister came to the door and it was completely dark. It was still black at that time. It was about 9 o’clock at night. I said, ‘Have you got anything for the Red Cross?’ And she shouted back to my mother, ‘Have you anything?’ And my mother rushed out, pushed her to one side and grabbed hold of me [laugh]. She’d heard my voice. That was enough. JM1: Did you stay in the RAF? JM2: I was in till the following February. I was posted to the Isle of Man because I got married whilst I was in the Air Force and it was a compassionate posting, to, to Calvary at first and then finally to Jurby on the Isle of Man. JM1: And did, did you maintain contact with your crew members in peacetime? JM2: No. The only one I — well, two actually I saw. I was — we went from Calvary to Newcastle. They were changing the, er, position of the squadron, turning it into a teaching squadron, up at on the other side Newcastle and whilst we were up there they said to, to complete the complement they needed a fire engine for the aerodrome up at Newcastle and it was to be collected from a place called Witchord, Witchford. ‘Does anyone know where Witchford was?’ I said, ‘I know it. It was the next aerodrome to me in Mepal when I was operating there.’ And the flight said, ‘It would be you. Clever arse again.’ He said, ‘Well you’d better collect it.’ So I got the job of collecting it and it was a six wheel Fordson, painted in drab colours, and a water tank on the back and various things. Not a red fire engine but a Fordson and I went down and collected this thing and stayed with the family of the girl in Mepal overnight and ferried it up to Newcastle. But while I was on the way I somehow remembered the address of the navigator and I said —while I was on the way I stopped in Darlington and asked directions to this address. Unfortunately I didn’t know the number. I knew the road but I didn’t know the number and I knocked on a house and asked if anybody knew the Air Force officer and they did and gave me the number. I knocked at the door and Ray came to the door [laugh]. Oh, that was a good reunion, yeah. That was the first I’d seen him since Dulag Luft in Frankfurt and we had a good natter there and I carried on up to Newcastle. The other time was when I was working for Cravens in Civvy Street and I went back to Mepal. I hired a car and I wanted to, er, see if the rear gunner still lived in Thatchford, so I went to Thatchford with this hired car and called in the local pub and asked, ‘Does anyone know Charlie Anderton. He was my rear?’ He said, ‘If you’re lucky you might catch him. He’s just left.’ And I saw the back of him disappearing on a bike over a field so that’s all I saw of Charlie Anderton, yeah. I did see him but I didn’t meet him, no. JM1: When you look back on those times how, how do you feel about what you went through and how Bomber Command was treated politically? JM2: I think you tend to forget the nasty times. You seem to get a mental block at them. As I say, sometimes during the dark hours it seems like yesterday and then it gets a bit hairy. But, um, you tend to block this out I think during normal life. We were only very young, as I say, and the young are adaptable and, er, it’s over seventy years ago. It’s a long while ago. JM1: Jim, thank you so much. You’ve given a marvellous interview. Thank you for your detail and clarity and information and emotion. JM2: Thank you for listening. It’s a very ordinary tale I feel. JM1: Not at all. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with James Mulhall. One Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Julian Maslin Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-08-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMulhallJE160823 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:04:05 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource James was born in Gorton, attended Catholic schools, and became an apprentice plumber. In November 1942 he joined the Royal Air Force and trained as a mechanic at RAF St Athan before being posted to RAF Henlow to assemble Hurricanes. He then went back to RAF St Athan to re-muster as a flight engineer. His next postings were at RAF Stradishall on Stirlings, which he thought were awful aircraft, and at RAF Feltwell on Lancasters. His crew was posted to 75 Squadron, serving at RAF Mepal where there were sometimes two full crews in a single Nissen hut. The crew’s first operation was a daylight operation to the U-Boat pens at St. Nazaire. On a run to Russelsheim they were coned and blinded by searchlights but managed to escape with little damage. James said most of the flights were just enduring the cold and getting back as safely as possible. He elaborates on service conditions on board, recollecting instances of incendiaries hitting their aircraft. After completing 30 operations (among them nine or 10 daylight ones) the crew decided to do a final four together which proved to be a fatal decision. Those who baled out ended up at Dulag Luft for interrogation. James was then moved to Stalag Luft VII in Poland in December 1944. He describes the conditions, food and treatment in the camps. James was in the long march which ended at Luckenwalde when they escaped. Prisoners were taken to Leipzig before being flown to Brussels and then home. James left the RAF in February 1946. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Norfolk England--Suffolk Wales--Vale of Glamorgan France Germany Poland France--Saint-Nazaire Germany--Oberursel Germany--Rüsselsheim Poland--Tychowo Germany--Leipzig Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942 1942-10 1943 1944 1944-12 1945 1946 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sue Smith Maureen Clarke Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription 75 Squadron aircrew anti-aircraft fire bale out bomb struck bombing crewing up Dulag Luft entertainment escaping fear flight engineer Hurricane Lancaster military living conditions military service conditions Nissen hut Oboe prisoner of war RAF Feltwell RAF Henlow RAF Mepal RAF St Athan RAF Stradishall searchlight Stalag 3A Stalag Luft 7 Stirling submarine the long march https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1041/11414/AMunroKW160522.mp3 b281050359604d4fa350d7a3b662ec59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Munro, Kenneth William K W Munro Description An account of the resource Eight items. An oral history interview with Kenneth Munro (Royal Air Force) and seven photographs. He flew operations as a night fighter navigator with 456 Squadron flying Mosquitos. The collection was catalogued by Barry Hunter IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Munro, KW Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document KM: I was not in Bomber Command. You know that of course. AP: Well, you were, you were Mosquitoes. KM: Yeah. Yeah. AP: That’s close enough. KM: Night fighters, is it? As Bob, he wasn’t, wasn’t the CO. He was next door to him. And the fellow Baz Howard, he came from Queensland and he, we were down at Bradwell Bay. Down Essex. Down there, and he said one day, we were all sitting down in the mess down there [coughs] and he said, I’m going up to see a friend up in Yorkshire.’ And Peter said, ‘Well, I’ll go with you in a Mosquito,’ and he said, ‘No. I’ll do it on my own.’ And he went up there and saw his mate and came back and he got just about back to Bradwell Bay and one of the motors conked out. And so just coming in and just landing it because they were putting all the things that went into the North Sea and taking them home and putting them in there and he, he went down and he said he couldn’t get in in a tight turn because one motor was gone. So he went around again and about just as he got over the, what’s it called, the Black Sea I think it is, and all of a sudden the other one went as well and he just sailed along. We could see him. He hit the water bumped his head on his forehead here and sank in about five feet of water. And we tried to get out because there was probably about sixty of us, probably a hundred guys from the [unclear] walk out to find him. But it was quite a big current was going like that and we couldn’t get out ourselves. Even if we turned the clocks off and walked and went out there but so he drowned in a Mosquito and just sank there. So it was a great shame but he was a very nice fellow too. But it just shows you. If you didn’t have to do the right thing and you didn’t get in the first landing, went around again. He should have just put it down. AP: Regardless. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I’ll ask you about accidents and things later on I think. So, we may as well if you’re, we may as well kick off the proper interview. KM: Yeah. AP: And it’s recording now. I can see it jumping away there. So what I normally do I start with a little, a little spiel at the beginning. Just to sort of set the time and place. KM: Yeah. AP: And then I dive in. Ask a couple of questions. We’ll just have a chat. KM: Yeah. AP: For an hour, two hours. However long it takes. KM: Yeah. AP: Until you run out of stories. KM: Yeah. AP: Or one or the other of us begs for mercy. Right. So this interview for the International Bomber Command Centre is with Ken Munro who was a 456 Squadron Mosquito navigator during the Second World War. The interview is taking place at Ken’s place in Doncaster in Melbourne. KM: Yeah. Applewood it’s called. AP: Applewood it is called. KM: Yeah. Yeah. AP: That’s right. It is the 22nd of April err I’ll try again it’s the 22nd of May. KM: Yeah. AP: 2016. My name’s Adam Purcell. So Don, you’re not Don. You’re Ken. Sorry. KM: Yeah. AP: Ken, tell me something of your early life and what you were doing before the war. KM: I got a job in nineteen, on the 24th of January 1938 in a chartered accountant’s called Wright and Roberts. Mr Wright died and it became MG Roberts. A well-known chartered accountant. And I stayed there until I got half way through the exams. Sort of half of the heart of it done and I was going to join the air force then. And he, Mr Roberts said why don’t you do your intermediate exam and then go? So I said ok. And by that time they didn’t want any more in the air force at that stage up in Russell Street and so I joined the Victorian Scottish. You know, you’ve probably seen my photograph over there. But I’ll show it to you later on but — so I was down there. Mount Martha was a beautiful spot down there in summertime. And after a while when the Yanks came in we had to go down to Back Beach at Ryde Down there. So we packed up. Went down there and we were there until about February I think it was. And then the word came around we were going to Fremantle and join the general who got out of Malaya. You know, when the Japs came. He got back to Australia. They didn’t like him doing that but he got there and we were to join up with him over there in the army at a place called Bushmead just out of Midland Junction there in Perth. They came around and there was a big van said, “Would you like to join the air force?” So I said, ‘Yes. I’d like to join the air force.’ So anyrate had to go, had to stay with the army. Went to Moura which is halfway to Geraldton. And at, finally they got in touch with me at Geraldton and said you can come down now to Busselton which is down near Bunbury. Down there. And so I was in the air force down there. And I was there probably for about probably about four or five weeks. I did a course down there. AP: So that was your Initial Training School was it? KM: Yeah. Then — AP: Yeah. KM: We went up to Pearce. You know, north of Perth. And we were there on guard you know. Still doing a job there. And there was Ralph White of course. Ralph White was the same thing. He was in the Victorian Scottish and so we got out. I came back to Somers in about [pause] September I think and then I did a course down there. Then Hubert Opperman, you know was our flight commander. He was, he was a teacher really. He was very good and he had another man called Ginger Markham, you know. And he came on top of the exercise we had to do and I was about second I think and he said. ‘We’re going to make you navigators.’ Which we didn’t want to be but [laughs] we sort of did well at arithmetic and that sort of thing. So anyrate, he said ‘Would you like to go to Canada?’ We both looked at one another. He said, ‘Well, if you’re not quite sure go to bed and sleep on it and come and tell me tomorrow.’ So we came back and said we’d like to go. So away we went and I went up to Bradwell, was it Bradwell Bay? Brad Park? Up there. AP: Bradfield Park in Sydney. KM: Yeah. AP: Yeah. KM: In to Sydney. And we were there. There for probably about three weeks and we were going on the Queen Elizabeth. And then somebody said there’s submarines outside there so they cancelled that and we had to stay back. Went across on the [pause] starting to forget things now. On an American very old steamer. What was it called? I’ve forgotten now. Anyway, we started from Sydney on, in March I think and it took us twenty eight days to get across the Pacific to — we were going to go to Vancouver but halfway across all of a sudden they could hear the throbbing of the motors going. Deathly quiet and the engines wouldn’t go and we were stuck there [laughs] about halfway across there. And anyway, they got them fixed up in about a day and we carried on. It took us twenty eight days to get us across the Pacific and they decided to go to San Francisco which, we had a day there. Bought a lot of chocolate and that sort of thing. People were very good there. The Yanks met us with cars and drove us all around ‘Frisco. And then we were only about a day and a half and then we got a train up to Vancouver which was marvellous. Beautiful scenery. And went to Vancouver and I think we stayed there a day or so and went out to Edmonton. That’s where I did my course there. So that was about all I think. AP: Alright. Why did you want to be in the air force? KM: Well, my father was in the barracks at St Kilda Road there and he knew the man who was the civil aviator. Sort of pilot you know. And he got this German three engine one with one there, one in the front sort of thing and he said, ‘Would any of your sons like to have a flight?’ I was about thirteen or fourteen and I said, ‘Yeah. I’d like to have a go at that.’ So a friend of mine who was, who was finally joined, [unclear] actually, he was a very clever bloke so he couldn’t join the forces because he was needed elsewhere. So, anyway we had all around Melbourne and he came back and he said to my father, he offered me to go down to Cerberus down there in the Mornington Peninsula as a cadet. I was about thirteen. I said, ‘No thanks. I don’t want to go to the Navy,’ so, ‘I want to go to the air force.’ So that was about how I got in the air force. And I did a course at Edmonton. I think it was about six months I think. And I was made an officer off course. And we went up to Halifax and got on the Aquitania and went to, to what’s that in the Clyde? What’s the name of it again? In the Clyde. That’s where we landed in there. I forget the name of the place but, and then had a train down to Brighton and that’s where we decided, want me to carry on? AP: Yeah. Keep going. KM: Yeah. Well — AP: Keep going. I’ll come back and fill in the gaps later on. KM: Yeah. Well. We got there. We got on the train. A little, little kid by the train line as you went to slide out to get out and he said in his Scots, ‘Have you got any gum mister?’ [laughs] And we said, ‘No. We haven’t got anything.’ So, anyway we went down to Brighton which was, we had a very nice hotel there. Just on the corner where the boulevard goes all along. Just around the corner down there. Near the Grand. You know, where Mrs Thatcher and they got — just away to the east from there. But it was very nice. We had a nice room there. And Focke Wulfs used to come across and shoot them up a bit occasionally. And at any raids that came we had to get down in to the, in to the bowels of the, of the hotel. And one day I I couldn’t be bothered. I thought I’d just stay in my room. And this Wing Commander Swan I think his name was, a bit of a nasty sort of fellow he came around, found me and he said, ‘I’ll let you off this time but you’ll be on a charge next time.’ Yeah. Anyway I went in to, in the, in the lounge one day and I sat down at a table like this. A man was reading a paper next door and he said, ‘Have you just arrived?’ and I said, ‘Yes. I just came in yesterday.’ And he said, in another two days he came and said, ‘I don’t know whether you know but I’m the posting officer from Brighton.’ And I said, ‘Oh. I think I’m going to Bomber Command.’ He said, ‘Well, they’ll probably take about three weeks before you can do that. But,’ he said, ‘There’s a new course.’ And I said, ‘Well, what is it?’ And he said, ‘Radar.’ I said, ‘I’ve never heard of it.’ He said, ‘Well, you have to do an exam.’ With another friend who came across so three other fellows came with me and we got, did the exam and got passed and so he said, ‘Well, you’re going up to Ouston which is up near Newcastle on Tyne.’ In there. ‘You’re going to learn all about radar.’ So, so anyway we waited about a week and away we went. And that’s when we, we — it was quite a nice station too. It was about October then I think and there was snow all around up there. And we started flying in Ansons you know. They had all the gubbins in there. And that’s how we learned how to operate radar and later on in [pause] first of all what did they call it? Radial engines. Oh God. Bomber. I’ll think of it later on. But it wasn’t a Mosquito, it was in. It was easier to sit back. The pilot’s up the front and I used to sit back there. Bomber — AP: Beaufighter perhaps. KM: Beaufighters. Beaufighters. I liked them. What did they call them? The creeping death, I think. You know. AP: Whispering. Whispering death. KM: Whispering death. Yeah. AP: It took all the [unclear] sort of thing. KM: They had plenty of power down below. I used to just sit back. There was a swivel chair. I used to face the back like that and then they put the power on and away it goes, and whirr like that. They were a very good aircraft. And down low they were very good indeed. But I did that for a while. And, I can’t remember. We had fellows that was going to do a camera thing, sort of thing and he got in one and went up and I was down the back and he, he did all sorts of things. Turned this and turned this and went over and back again. And I said, ‘How long are you going to be on this?’ And he said, ‘I won’t be that long.’ And I said, ‘Well, I’m going to be sick in a moment.’ [laughs] and, which I was. And when I got down a WAAF came out and said, with a bucket and said, ‘You can clean it up yourself.’ [laughs] But so that was my and from then on we did mostly all sorts of things. It came behind an aircraft and it dropped down below them so they looked up and fired a bullet sort of thing. And then, then they had to do one, one coming straight to you and you had to go. You could see them coming. You had to do that left hand turn to come below. And if you could go, catch him again and again shoot him down sort of thing. So we learned all about that there. As a matter of fact Keith Miller was up there. AP: Ah. KM: Yeah. He was flying ones you know. Doing what we were. Trying to get behind him sort of thing but [pause] So, I think I was there ‘til about the beginning of February I think. And then we went down to Bedfordshire. At Cranfield. And that’s where I met my wife down there. And we did a lot of more work on, we used to get behind the [pause] I’m forgetting aircraft. Wellington. Yeah. We used to get behind them and do the same thing, sort of thing. And that went on for about in February ‘til late April I think. And then I was going to go to Bomber Command as an escort. And I had packed everything up and I was going to get the train down to London and go out to Coltishall. Out in Norfolk. And the signal came through from the air vice marshall from Australia — all people are going as night fighters. Going to 456 down in, in Arundel. Down south, And Arundel’s just near little, little Hampshire I think it was. Near Worthing. Down there. And so here we had to come back and finally get a train down there and that’s how I arrived at Ford which was a marvellous station. AP: Sorry. Ford, did you say? KM: Ford. F O R D. AP: Yeah. KM: But from Arundel we used to come down the road and over the railway line and a winding road down into the, into Ford which was a very good ‘drome, you know. And I think I finished up in B flight. B flight I think. There were two in the squadron And, and that was about it I think then. Do you want me to carry on? AP: Please carry on. A whole story we want. KM: Well, I met a wing commander. God, I forget things now. Big fellow and of course I think I’ve got, no I lent Bob Cowper book to a friend. Any rate the wing commander said, How do you do,’ and he told me what pilot I was going to be on and everything like that. And he, he was a good pilot but wasn’t very popular because he thought everybody, thought, he thought everybody was not up to his standard you know. So, but any rate I went down in the [unclear] I think it was and we had to do quite a few exercises at night, you know. And, and it was beautiful weather down at Ford down there because the summer was from, from June onwards. Right all the way to Christmas time. It was good weather down there so, so my first thing was to go up and shoot down the buzz bombs you know. And one day we had to go to — there were searchlights. S for Sugar and T for something else. T for Tear or something like that. And the ground control said to the wing commander, he said you need to go to — is it, what’s the name? Tearing or something like that. And he said to the wing commander you’ve got to go to tear west or something. He said, ‘I’m tearing west,’ he said. Which was a great big joke and he got the wrong thing altogether. But we went to S for Sugar and stayed there. And he could, he used to get up about, say about eight thousand feet you know. Angels height you know and look towards the French coast and you could see them coming because the fire out the back of them used to light up. And he said, ‘There’s one coming towards you.’ So up at eight thousand feet he said, ‘When it gets close enough you start to go down behind him.’ Like that. ‘Get right behind him and just press the trigger you know.’ And we were just about to do it on one thing and a Canadian fellow in a, in a single engine aircraft got in front of us and shot it down himself and he was put on a bad books. And the fellow was very cross about that but, but anyrate so we didn’t get any more from then. But, but one fellow in 85 Squadron, they were on Ford with us as well and Cat’s Eyes Cunningham was in 85, and his name was Mellish. And strangely enough I read in the paper one day and it had a thing about things in Great Britain. Quite a size. About that size in the paper and said he finished up a wing commander. He was, I think he was flight lieutenant then but he shot down eight when he was up for three hours. Eight of them. God. But he died probably about, oh about five years ago I think. But — AP: Sorry. When you were shooting down, when you were chasing the buzz bombs. KM: Yeah. AP: You were in a Mosquito at this point? KM: Yeah. In Mosquitoes. Yeah. AP: And you were obviously talking to ground control. KM: Yeah. Yeah. AP: So they would, they would tell you that they could see one coming on the radar. KM: Coming. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. AP: And just sort of, did they give you like vectors towards it? Or did they say it’s over — KM: Yeah. Yeah. We — I think [pause] my memory’s going but yeah it’s one’s coming. Go to vector say to the right hand. Like that usually. So they, they would come down like that behind. Yeah. They go to a vector but it’s just forgotten. It was to the right. Usually to the right so we could do the left hand turn and come down. So we enjoyed all that. It was great so, and then what happened after that? [pause] Oh, we went down to B Flight and we used to get — they had a — what did they call it? On a slate or something. And they would be first say about 8 o’clock at night for three hours. And we’d go into France. Go into Le Touquet. There was a little inlet in there. There’s as I say Beachy Head about there. About here. Le Touquet’s across there. Used to go across and then go up to Lisle. Again, a man on the ground used to tell you what to do sort of thing. But did you know Fred Stevens at all? He, funny he’s got a friend down here I was talking to last night. He was one of the best pilots on 456 and the just natural to fly and, but my pilot was Karl McLennan. He was a very experienced pilot who [pause] he was 3 Course out of Australia and he did a lot of, as a to teach pupils you know. And finally came to, to Cranfield. I remember I was reading the paper one day and he came in. The bar was across there and he said, he looked around and he saw me with an Australian uniform on. He said, ‘Oh g’day. ‘G’day.’ He said, ‘Want to have a beer?’ I said, ‘I don’t drink.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, and after a while I was reading this and I thought I should do something and he said, ‘Are you sure you don’t want a drink?’ I said, ‘Oh ok. I’ll come over and have one.’ So that was my first beer. AP: [unclear] KM: So anyway, he said, ‘Are you going to crew up with anybody?’ I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘What about me?’ and I said, ‘That’ll do me.’ He told me all about 3 Course. And I said, ‘You’re much more experienced then I am,’ you know but at any rate he said, ‘No. We’ll go together.’ So we did and he said, he talked to me, he said, he said, ‘Look, I’m what you’d call a live coward,’ he said, ‘So no fancy stuff. I’ll do exactly what I’m supposed to do,’ you know. Any rate he was a very good pilot you know. So we did, we did some cross countrys’ over as I say, over to Wales and back to High Wycombe. Up to Lincoln. Up there. And then back to, to Cranfield. And then there when we went down to Ford just before D-Day we were — I had, they had to show me as a navigator on Mark 10 radar which was a different sort of thing. So I had to go to Twinwood Farm which was a satellite of Cranfield for a month. So I missed out on Normandy. And [pause] but I learned all on how to work all the gubbins in a Mosquito. The pilot got in first across there. Quite small you know. He was rather chubby because he drank a lot [laughs] Mac. But, and I, I had the set there on a sort of a pulled out sort of thing and he sat there and I sat here. I used to pull it out when he got in. Pulled it out here and have it on the radio sort of thing which is with a dividing line down like that. That’s left or right sort of thing. And one for height sort of thing. Across like that. So it had a range of a hundred miles so if you, say you were coming back to England you just, and every aerodrome had a code you know. Say BA and AB or something like. And you wanted to go to that destination you knew what their code was and he just turned the aircraft around so it was dead in front of you like that. Whatever height you wanted to do. You either go up or down. And just sit there. And when you come to almost there you just knew exactly where you were and, and so when you got to say, Ford it was going beep beep beep and down you go. And that was great you know. Coming from say Germany there you just, just set it for where you want to go and a range a hundred miles so, you know — AP: So this is Gee? KM: Eh? AP: Is this the Gee system? KM: No. We had the Gee later on. AP: Oh ok. KM: Yeah. When we went for longer trips in Germany and you need that to — you had two. Two maps as a matter of fact. You had one that was going to certain distance about there. Then you’d get the other one would go further on. In fact one of our senior navigators he kept on using the first one and he [laughs] his pilot, Smithy said, ‘I don’t think we’re going the right way.’ And he said, ‘I’m in charge. I’ll tell you where you’re going.’ Anyway, he was going to Germany and, Smithy we called him, he was a pilot, he said, ‘I can see lights down there,’ he said, ‘It looks like Switzerland.’ Oh he got a black mark for that [laughs] But but he had to use his second one but they were very good. AP: So the — sorry the first radar you were telling me about. That’s a navigational radar or an airborne like interception radar? KM: In the aircraft yeah. Yeah. AP: Yeah. It’s in the aircraft but — KM: Yeah. AP: Sorry. Was that for navigation or for finding fighters or something? KM: Yes. Yes. Yes, a blip would come up. AP: Yeah. KM: A blip. Yeah. We were one, not that far from Berlin. We used to go over there until the petrol. Had to watch out that we had enough petrol to get back again. We used to circle the aerodrome. And it was a bright moonlight night. I remember that. And we were going around like that and I said to Mac, ‘I think we’d better go home in a moment because, you know the petrol is getting down a bit.’ So, you know, I just spoke to him. I just, like that, and I saw an aircraft about a hundred yards away sort of thing. I said, ‘There’s a German right there,’ and I said, I said, ‘Lose height. Left hand turn,’ which we used to do. Lose height. Went down like that. Ok. And then of course all of sudden they had the lights on the fellow. All the lights went out you know. And it came back and we couldn’t see too well then but we could see the runway and that sort of thing and it had all the, you know the, what do they call them? Sort of the pens where the aircraft went into and we went up and down the runway shooting all those things that we could see. We’re not quite sure whether we hit this aircraft. But at any rate the next one to start firing back at us so we did another run too and did all what we could about what we could see on the ground. And then we decided to go home after that because we were getting short on the petrol. So that was a bit of an unfortunate thing but just seeing that bloke but he just appeared. I can see him now just out there. But anyrate we went home again and we used to do that sort of thing, you know. Quite often. Circle the aerodrome and see what’s coming. AP: So — KM: They were getting short on their for petrol. The Germans. You know. And, but I’ll tell you about the last thing that we did. Bob Cowper picked us to go with him down to a place call Linz on the Danube. Way down. Almost to Budapest sort of thing. Down there. And the river came down like that and it went down like that down south a bit. About twelve miles down was an aerodrome and we were going to go. And we had a squadron leader from the, the, what are they called? It was all the big wigs down at Ford. And it was going to drop a napalm bomb on the aerodrome down there. Anyrate, he, it was a bright moonlight night and we went all the way. We went to Juvencourt, just out of Paris and we got more petrol and carried on down to, to Linz down there. And we had just arrived and I could see it in the moonlight. We got there right on ETA. I could see them in front of us. And then we had to go to the right hand side, down south and go to the aerodrome. Drop these bombs sort of thing. And anyrate this squadron said, ‘I’ll lead down,’ you know. And he went down then. About half way down he put a flare out and we said, ‘Oh, you’ve put it in the wrong place.’ You know. And all he could see was a farm, cows and everything else. And we said, you’re only halfway down there so he went on down there and he said, he went round an aerodrome and he said, ‘I’ll take the in charge. I’ll do the first run in now.’ And he went down then. He went down because they were ready for him I think. He said, ‘I’ve been hit already,’ he said, ‘I’m going home.’ So that was all he did all night. So, we said we, we were going down so we went down once. Did a left hand turn over the river there and came back again like that. And just as we got around to go down again on the aerodrome some tracer bullets came right past my ear. My hair went up like that. And it just missed us actually. And anyrate we, I mean say that that’s the river down there. We went down like that we came back like that. Came down. Did another run in again and that’s when the tracer bullets came across there. But we did it again and again they were ready for us again because somebody — I don’t know who did it, it must have been on the other side of the river there. It’s quite high up there because I can remember it seemed to be coming down like that you know. But anyrate, we did the same thing again you know, circled. They were ready for us again. But anyway came back and Bob Cowper said, ‘What a mess up that was,’ you know. Bob Cowper was going to do everything and did nothing you know [laughs] But strangely enough Bob Cowper went down to Ford one day and he went down to the intelligence and saw what this fella said. Said it was a great success. Which was [laughs] we were very upset about that but so that was about it and then back to Bradwell Bay and on May the 8th, you know, the Germans decided they’d had enough. And, and then on — Mac had been getting into the liquor all the time and he got, what do you call it? Like jaundice. Sort of thing. Had to go to hospital. And then they asked 456 and another Mosquito squadron to go to the Channel Islands where the Germans were going to fight on. And so they went. Three — two, two lots went down. Went down to quite low and first said if you don’t we’ll give you, we’ll shoot the whole lot of you, you know. So they finally decided. So the war finally finished on the 9th of May. So you know that was about it I think. But so we went, we were supposed to come — the rumours said we were probably going up to Burma, you know, when we get back. But we went back to Brighton again and stayed about a week I think. We had a little car. I’ve got a photograph of it over there as a matter of fact. And we had to drive up to post this out in the east end of London and we had to go across — was it Dartmoor or something? Where there’s a ferry used to go across and you go up the hill like that to this place where they had all, they got a whole new or old cars He came from nowhere. He was a [unclear] actually. We saw it. We went up there and he said well go back to that fella and see what he’ll give us for the car, you know. We bought it for thirty seven pound and went up there. He came around and he went all through it like this looking. And said, he said, ‘Eighty pound.’ So he said ok. We said, ‘Can we have for it about a week because we’re going to Brighton.’ He said ok. We came up here in a week’s time. He came up and John Darling who was a great mate of mine he was, he was driving and he came across this thing. This ferry or something. And as he came up the hill that. It was hard to get. I think I said, ‘Put your foot down.’ He said, ‘I am,’ he said. Going up the hill he said to me, ‘It’s just about gone. The engine.’ So anywhere we got that, this [unclear] came around. He went all over it. He looked up, he said, ‘Well, there’s a mark on the ceiling.’ And he said, ‘No. I won’t give you eighty. I’ll give you seventy five.’ So we said ok. We got our seventy five. Rushed like mad and got on a bus and went back and went to the very posh hotel. I can’t remember the name again. I was trying to remember it this morning. And we had a night there and spent the whole seventy five [laughs] Oh dear. But so that was the end of our story really but — AP: So, I might go back and fill in a few gaps. You mentioned a few little bits and pieces that I’ve sort of — KM: Yeah. AP: I’ve grabbed hold of there. KM: Yeah. AP: You said you met your wife at Cranfield. Can you tell me that story? KM: Well, I went to Cranfield and that’s as I said where I met Margaret. My wife. And well, no we just, we just carried on with that was Cranfield. I’m forgetting things now but [pause] it was, is it the second one that was at Ouston. Number one. It was, what would you call it? The EFTS or something like that. There was a name for it and then you did all that and then you went to the squadron. AP: Operational Training Unit perhaps. KM: Yeah. AP: OTU. KM: The word. That’s right. AP: Yeah. KM: Yeah. But Cranfield was a lovely station. A peacetime station. And, and we had a beautiful cricket ground there and we had married quarters, you know. You used to go out two story ones and that’s how I met Margaret actually. AP: Did you get married in the UK? KM: No. No. She was still in the air force down in Benson near Oxford. And she was still in the air force but we’d gone then from Liverpool back home again. And no, she came out in September 1946. Yeah. And we were married on the 15th of, of November. So we’ll be seventy years married in November. AP: Wow. Wow. So was she, she was in the WAAF? KM: Yeah. AP: What was she doing in the WAAF? KM: She was one of the managers of the, of the officer’s mess. AP: Ok. Cool. KM: Margaret. Yeah. AP: Yeah. Margaret. Cool. KM: Yeah. AP: Lovely. You also mentioned something about when you, when you were young. When you were thirteen, I think. KM: Yeah. AP: That triplane. KM: Yeah. AP: Or the tri motor thing. KM: Yeah. AP: Tell me about that. KM: Well, I don’t know why it came out here but this man was a very experienced pilot. He was a civilian sort of chief sort of thing but, no I always sort of wanted to go into the air force but but that flight it was a lovely day. Went all around the bay and that sort of thing, you know. That’ll do me, you know so, but at that stage was in Russell Street they had the air force sort of recruitment place. But they had enough at that stage and couldn’t take any more you know. In fact another thing. When I went on leave in England I think every six weeks you used to get a leave and that Lady Ryder’s Scheme that said do you want to go to the country or a town? Do you want to play golf or, you know. I said, ‘I want to go to Scotland and I want to play golf,’ and everything else. So anyrate I got up to Aberdeen and I got a train out to a place called Stewartville and I think I’ve got a map there. And I got out and we were with another fellow. This one from Somers, you know who was a navigator with me and there was a horse and cart there and where we were going. He took all the bags and he said, ‘I’ll drive you to the general’s place.’ He was the number one general in the UK at the beginning of the war. A very nice old man he was. And, anyrate, he had, I got it in my photographs in my album there. So, we went there and he welcomed us in. His wife and so forth. At about 5 o’clock or about half past five, it was summertime and he said, ‘Come down and we’ll have something to eat.’ So we had some cookies as they do. And we had to get them out of the cupboard sort of thing and I said to [unclear] ‘Is that all we get for dinner?’ You know [laughs] Never had — what do you call it? High tea. That’s right. High tea. I went upstairs and I wrote a letter to my mother, “This is a very nice place and I’ve got to know a leading general but we don’t have much of a dinner here.” [laughs] And all of a sudden there was a gong went and down we went down. We had jugged hare. I can remember it to this day. But he was a very nice bloke and he understood. He said, ‘Look I’m old and you’re young.’ He said, ‘You want to play golf go to Peterhead.’ He said, ‘You can have a game there.’ So we got on our bikes. And the wind we could hardly get past it. It was just blowing like one thing and we got there and then we were allowed most of the golf clubs that people from abroad would be allowed to play you know. So we got there and he came around and he said, ‘Yes. Well, you can go around here. he said this way we can go out here and I said, ‘I’m a left hand.’ ‘We haven’t got any left handed.’ Oh God [laughs] they’re like that, particularly in Scotland. They didn’t like left handers so we went all the way there and did nothing. So [laughs] but no, there was, in fact he had a brother I think it was. Sir Charles Burnett, I think. Down at Crathes Castle just on the way to Ballater out of Aberdeen. You know, along the river there. And a beautiful castle. We had a lot of pleasure whilst we were there. And he was the chief of the Gordon clan, you know. And in fact part of the castle that he had was used as a hospital for people in from the war. And we went down there. We had lunch down there. And he came [laughs] he had a, he bought a great big bulldog in one day and we were fooling around like this, ‘Come on here,’ and doing this. And he could see the dog wasn’t too pleased about it and Bob like, it bit him on his wrist. He wasn’t too pleased about that either but, but it was a lovely place. They had gardens. There was. They had like a purple one. A yellow one. Green one. Red one. One, two, three, four going down the hill sort of thing. It’s a lovely place. We’ve been back there quite a few times. Crathes Castle. I’ll show you where it is. Have you got a minute? AP: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I’ll give you a hand if you want. KM: Yeah. [unclear] AP: Oh where am I going? Ok. I can go and get it if you want. KM: In the bottom drawer. On the right hand side there. No. No. No. Back here. Over here. Right hand side on the bottom one. There’s a map there. AP: “Road Atlas of Great Britain.” KM: It’s, yeah, that’s right. That’s it. That’s it. Yeah [pause] probably need my bloody glasses. AP: Where are they? KM: There. Right on [ pause ] AP: Here. These ones? KM: No. That’ll do. Yeah. AP: That’ll do. KM: I’ve got one. Another one. When I’m here it’s always over there so I’ve got two of them. That story. There’s Aberdeen. We went up here to — I’d better get this one but there’s Peterhead there. That’s about there this. The [unclear] yeah. Going out from there but what’s that? ’83. [Pause. Pages turning] KM: It’s been a marvellous book this one. I’ve kept it all those years. [pause] KM: There. AP: Ah yes. KM: Aberdeen. Went up in a train. Up here I guess. Stewartville. There we are. We went from there in a horse and cart. About there. That’s where he lived. About there. So, and then we got on our bike. Went to Peterhead there but no, there isn’t a station there but no I know quite a bit about Scotland. I’ve been about seven times now. AP: Lovely. KM: I’ll show you where Ford is. [pause] AP: Oh yeah. There’s Beachy Head there. Yeah. KM: Yeah. Beachy Head. There’s a marvellous spot there. And living about here I think [pages turning] [unclear] See there’s Brighton and, and you see that’s a lady down there. She was at, she lived at Carshalton which is up towards London and she was, we used to stay with her. She had two hundred and fifty seven colonials. Australian, Canadians and that sort of thing at her house during the war. She was a marvellous lady, and anyrate at Carshalton Beeches two storey place. And the buzz bombs used to come over and she was out putting clothes on the line, and had a big fig tree there near the clothes line and she could hear the buzz bomb brrrrrr like this and didn’t worry to peg the things out. All of a sudden the sound finished. So she went for her life towards her dugout down there with steps on it and just got to the top and bang it landed in the back yard and blew all the leaves off the tree. And blew her down to her dugout down there. And she was bruised and that sort of thing. But it moved the house about a foot you know. So they had to move out of that and went down to Seaford. Down here. But she was a marvellous woman because she took it all in her stride. I would say [pause] Littlehampton. [Pause. Pages turning] Here’s Brighton. Came down to Worthing. Little Hampton. Now there’s Arundel. That’s where the big castle is. Played the first game of cricket there. Inside that thing is a cricket ground in there. And we used to have dances in his dining room once every a month you know. Because he knew, he knew the queen as a matter of fact. He was a cousin or something. But, but we used to ride down here. We used to have a swim down there. And but there were barbed wire along there as well but and our ground station was at Angmering, that’s right Angmering, that’s it. About there. That’s our ground station there and Ford was just, you just crossed the railway line there and just about there. That’s where the aerodrome was. There. That’s it. AP: Oh yeah. I can see it says Ford there. Yeah. KM: Yeah. Yeah. But, and then, and then we had [laughs] used to play cricket down at Middleton Sports Club. There’s a cricket ground down there and 456 had a — I’ve got something about that over there. I’ll show you my book later on but we beat them down there. You probably don’t know about Charlie Kunz. A marvellous pianist. He was a Yank who came to Britain before the war and stayed on. He used to have a programme on the BBC. Playing the piano. It was called, “The Hot and the Cold.” He used to play softly and then louder. Softly and louder. Very nice. But he had a son who played in a team against us. He was only about seventeen I think and the fellow that opened the bowling was the captain of the other side. His name was, I’ve got it over there. He played for England actually and a medium fast bowler and I opened up with another fellow and he got three wickets or something straightaway but I stayed on. I made fifty. And I dropped one a bit short note went bang. Was almost six. This young kid stuck his hand out and caught it. He came in after the, after the match. Very nice clubhouse there. Two storey place with two squash courts there. And he said, he came and he said, ‘Would you boys,’ Don Darling and myself, ‘Would you like to go and see my father?’ And I said, ‘Who’s your father?’ He said, ‘He’s a pianist. He’s at the Hippodrome at Brighton.’ So he said, and he gave us the tickets and everything. So we went to see and that’s the first time I heard beautiful piece. Fairly old, you know. It was getting a bit grey. And at any rate the lead at the Hippodrome with Arthur Askey. Do you remember Arthur Askey? He was a comedian, you know. Little fellow. And he had a, he had on a stage. He was in front of it. Behind it I think a ladies toilet like that and he came on and he said, ‘I’ll now play for you, “By the waterfall,” you know [laughs] Oh dear. That was a good night. So anyrate we had we got quite friendly with his son and I went over there one day and I wrote a letter to him and he was back in London by that time. But he got an OBE because he — I think he might be dead now I think because he wasn’t too well the last time I got a card from him, you know. But yeah so that’s about the end of my story I think. AP: I’m sure there’s more in it. What, what other things did you get up to while you were on leave in England? KM: Well, it all came back and said, ‘If you want to go to this places. This is a beautiful spot,’ kind of thing. So this fellow by the name Luke. Luke I think. He came from Tasmania. He went, ‘Oh you ought to go. He’s got four cars. He’d got two squash courts, he said he’s got a cricket ground and he’s got a three storey house.’ I said, ‘Well we’ll go to that.’ I got one of my brothers to go there. Mr [unclear] — he had a brewery in the east of London. Mr — God, I’m forgetting names. Old fellow with a moustache, you know. And Mr [pause] he had a younger wife and he had gout and I said to him one day, ‘Do you mind if my brother,’ who was in the navy, ‘Comes up to see me?’ ‘Oh no. that’s ok. He can come up.’ So anyrate he came over and he stayed the night. And he had a butler as well. He used to come and say , ‘Your bath is ready, sir.’ You know [laughs] I forget his name. This was very posh this place. His wife was very nice. And one night we were having dinner one night and he used to sit at the top of the table there, I was here and she was over there and she said, ‘I’ll bring the grandchild in now to say goodnight to him. He came and said goodnight to him and when she went out of the room he went down and he had a whicker sort of thing. Almost to the table. Opened it up and he had a gin or something with like this [ laughs] pushed it back before his wife came in. But it was a lovely place. I stayed there about a week, you know. I don’t know whether you know about Bill Edrich . He was the opening bat for the English Test Team. Came out to Australia in 1946 I think. And he was a flight lieutenant in the air force and his father was the manager of the estate where this Mr what was his name? I can’t think of his name but anyway when he stayed at his estate he he had an aerodrome on one part of his estate. A Yank aerodrome. And across the road was a place called [unclear] I think it was. And the fella in there was, came from Lancashire and he was a sir something. Sir Humphrey. Sir Humphrey his name was and he owned quite a bit of Lancashire up there. I think the, the Yorkshire ground was one, was on his land as a matter of fact and [laughs] we had, we had a pheasant shoot down at the one I was staying at. And they had all the men in the estate going beating to the, to get the pheasant out you know. Going around like that. He had to get in turn. He said, shoot when I, when you want them to fly. Bang. Knock one down. At any rate we both knocked one down and Humphrey, you know, Sir Humphrey [unclear] and this this fella from Tasmania, ‘Come on Humphrey. Come on. Get one,’ you know. Took him about five shots to get one. We didn’t know he was Sir Humphrey. Whatever. And he was the one we stayed with. His wife said, ‘I’d like to introduce Sir Humphrey.’ So we found out he was Sir Humphrey. So, but yeah but that lady, Lady Ryder used to do it for everybody. You could go down to to Devon or, I went down to to Predannack. Right down at the end of England. Right down. Right down there. In fact 456 were going to go down there but they didn’t go. Somebody else took our place I think. So that’s how they came to Ford actually. From there. That’s about all I think. AP: A couple more questions. A couple more questions. So you, we haven’t spoken that much about your operational side of things. What you actually did as a navigator and a radar operator. Did you have, in the — well first of all what sort of trips were you actually doing in the Mosquitoes? KM: Intruder trips. We used to go usually quite often on a bright moonlight night you know and yeah, you’d go up and down their, what do you call their roads again. Not the freeways. Anyrate you could see them to go like that. Two or three of our fellas used to see a train, you know. You could see that when they opened it with the coke or something in there. And they were sitting ducks. They used to go down and knock them off. We didn’t see any of those but Ron Lytton who lives, used to live out near Essendon and — how long have you been out there Adam? AP: Three years now. KM: Oh no. He’s probably dead about ten. He was a, he was a plumber out there. And his, his and he’s still alive actually Geoff Reeves was his pilot. A very good pilot and he knocked over about two trains I think, you know. But we used to do those things. Anything we could see. And the Arnhem. You know the one bridge too far. We were on that day. It was foul night. God it was blowing like mad, you know. And we got on to there was one in front of us. I could see one and I said to Mac, ‘Turn left,’ you know,’ And drop height,’ and everything like that. And then as he went around and around and we were behind him going there there and there and he, Mac my pilot, he said, ‘I think he must be one of ours,’ he said because we could turn inside a JU88. You know, get in beside him. He said, what about it? He said what was our call sign [pause] oh God I’ve forgotten that but he called out, ‘Is that one of our crowd?’ He said, ‘Yeah B,’ he said [laughs] and he said, ‘I’ve been chasing you,’ he said. ‘No. You’ve got the wrong one.’ So, but, but on Arnhem the [pause] oh yeah. We had a fellow called Woodhouse or we called him Woody as a matter of fact who was a leading ground controller. And they ,they took him over and they were going to parachute him down and then and he had some, a glider or something there put down what he needed to contact us in the air. So anyway he got down there but the Germans were waiting for him. Grabbed him, you know. So, so we never got any call about the Germans at all in the air. But, but we went up to, to Arnhem. Now, what happened there? Oh that’s right. As I say terrible weather. So we were going along and got St Elmo’s Fire. Have you heard about that? All along the wings. What’s going on here? You know. Anyway, we got out of that. But anyroad we got off course and everything else. We didn’t do much about that but after doing that chasing that bloke and this thing I didn’t know exactly where I was. And going home to England Mac said, ‘Well, where are we now?’ I said, ‘Well, about the time we went home now I think.’ I said, ‘Just go to the west. We’ll get to England someway.’ So in fact we got up to The Wash, you know. And we were down at Ford you know. In fact we started our flight at Manston which is down, down in Kent. Down there. It’s a very big aerodrome. Three runways you know. So big aircraft down that one. The middle one was ok. Anyone in trouble be on the right hand one. But we got, when I got back we were at The Wash which was probably about a hundred miles up to the north. And we turned down. I said to Mac, ‘Turn down south again.’ We got down there and then the, the, what was it? He couldn’t get the wheels down or something. The hydraulics didn’t work. So I had to get down and I had to pump it myself. I finally got them out after about half an hour but so we landed back there. So, but that was quite a night actually. But I’ve seen that. We’ve seen that film about one bridge too far. AP: I haven’t seen it but I am aware of it. KM: It’s very good. AP: [unclear] Yeah. KM: How did I get it? I don’t know where I’ve got it. It was over there. It had all the well-known actors in that one. Sean Connery’s in it and a lot of them. It’s a very good film actually. But I went to see it too as a matter of fact. There’s a bridge over the, where the they stopped the Germans actually there. But I went over to Normandy with a friend of mine. A cousin of Margaret’s actually. And they’ve got a sort of a museum there as well but there’s— have you ever been to Normandy? AP: I have. KM: Yeah. AP: I have yeah. I spent a few years over there so — KM: We went together and was over. And that was good too. AP: But you said you missed Normandy because you were in a training programme. KM: Yeah [unclear] on that but — AP: What did, what did you think of the Mosquito? KM: Beautiful. Nothing wrong with it at all, you know. I said that Don McLennan said the Halifax went, loaded up went to the left and then the right, you know. This went straight down. A very good pilot Mac. Once we were going down I used to go, he would drop it down. H would just go [unclear] very good. He was a good pilot Mac. Poor old Mac. He died probably about twenty years ago. He had Parkinsons Disease you know. I think it might have been all the beer he drank. AP: How did you find adjusting to civilian life after the war? KM: Eh? AP: How did you find adjusting to civilian life after the war? KM: I didn’t mind it. I I went into work. I was still in uniform. I didn’t have a suit. And Malcolm Roberts said to me, ‘Do you want to come back to work?’ And I said, ‘Oh yes,’ you know. And he gave me five pounds worth of salary [laughs] per week. And so I went to a place in, in Flinders Lane. He was one of our clients and I went in there and strangely enough he was the son of the chief there. Wade. You know. Evan Wade. And Terry Wade is over here in Doncaster. He’s still alive as a matter of fact. His wife’s dead unfortunately. But anyway so I did work there and I went back and forth until about 1948. Then I became a chartered accountant then. I went to RMIT to finish my course and so after a while he said to me, ‘Do you want to come over and be the secretary up here?’ So I went home and said to my wife what about — I’m not quite sure about it but anyway decided to give it a go and I was there for twenty one years. So, well worth it. So was that about it? AP: Any, any final thoughts on your air force service? KM: Eh? AP: Any final thoughts on your air force service? KM: No. No. AP: What you got out of it. KM: No. I got the, I got the Legion of Honour over there. AP: Oh excellent. KM: Yeah. But that was, that came later on, you know. AP: Of course. KM: But it was mostly the intruder trips that are as I say we’ve got the lady up in Canberra and had them all put down where I went to and that sort of thing. And then I was surprised to get it but I’ve got it over there as a matter of fact. You see the one, the blue one there on the [unclear] AP: This one here. KM: Pop it on there. My sister did that for me. Take the top one. That one. Yeah. AP: Oh yeah. KM: That’s it. [pause] KM: Is that? Is that — AP: Oh this is the presentation is it? KM: Yeah. AP: Yeah. Ok. KM: That’s [unclear] AP: Yeah. I see that. KM: That’s the man who put them on. He gave you a big hug [laughs] AP: Of course because he’s French. I see Gerald there as well. KM: Yeah. Yeah. Gerald. Funny. He came in the same day as I. His son came out of Norway for it. AP: Fantastic. KM: But yeah. But — yeah. AP: Alright. Well — KM: Well — AP: Well, I think we’re done. Thank you very much. KM: Thanks Adam. It’s very good of you to come all this way. AP: Oh it’s alright. I love it. KM: [unclear] AP: I really do. I’ll just turn the recording off. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Kenneth William Munro Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Adam Purcell Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-05-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMunroKW160522 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:25:28 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Australian Air Force Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Australia Austria Austria--Linz Canada England--Bedfordshire England--Northumberland England--Sussex France Great Britain Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Channel Islands Netherlands Netherlands--Arnhem Victoria Victoria--Mornington Peninsula Victoria--Mount Martha Western Australia Western Australia--Bunbury Western Australia--Busselton Western Australia--Geraldton Western Australia--Moora Description An account of the resource Ken was a 456 Squadron Mosquito navigator. He initially joined the Army’s Victorian Scottish regiment but changed to the Royal Air force. He was selected to be a navigator and sailed to Canada. Ken did a course at Edmonton and was made an officer. He then sailed back to Scotland and went down to Brighton. After undertaking a new course on radar, he went to RAF Ouston to learn how to operate it. He flew in Ansons and Beaufighters before going to Cranfield to fly Wellingtons. Ken met his wife there, a Women's Auxiliary Air Force who managed the officers’ mess. He was due to join Bomber Command but eventually became night fighters aircrew and joined 456 Squadron. Ken was stationed at RAF Ford. Ken describes how he met his pilot. They initially shot down V-1s flying Mosquitoes. They went to northern France and did cross countries. Ken missed D-Day as he was training on Mark 10 radar at RAF Twinwood Farm. They did intruder raids. He describes going to Linz and their encounters with fighters. His squadron, along with another Mosquito squadron, were sent to the Channel Islands and was instrumental in the surrender German forces stationed there on 9th May 1945. Ken was a recipient of Lady Ryder’s Dominion and Allied Services Hospitality Scheme and describes some of the hospitality and leisure pursuits he experienced. After the war, Ken received the Legion of Honour. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Sally Coulter Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1945 456 Squadron 85 Squadron aircrew Anson Beaufighter love and romance Mosquito navigator Pippo radar RAF Cranfield RAF Ford RAF Ouston RAF Twinwood Farm training V-1 V-weapon https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1060/11454/ABowmanFA181121.mp3 f07920709970bb07c32383225c44434c https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1060/11454/PBowmanFA1801.jpg 1d7624307c14646291928d3f0ff29a34 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Bowman, Frederick Arthur F A Bowman Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Fred Bowman (1924 - 2020, 429212 Royal Australian Air Force). He flew operations as a wireless operator with 138 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Bowman, FA Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document JH: This is John Horsburgh and this afternoon I’m interviewing Fred Bowman and we’re at [buzz] in Sydney, New South Wales. This is part of the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincolnshire. The Oral History Project. Today is the 21st of November 2018. So, good afternoon, Fred. FB: Good afternoon. How are you? Lovely to meet you. JH: Likewise. So, a very interesting interview we’ve, we’ve got coming up I’m sure. Fred was a wireless operator with 138 Squadron and Fred, maybe we can start with, right from the beginning. Your date of birth and where were you born. FB: 17th of June 1924. Born in Paddington in Sydney. JH: And you went to school in Sydney. FB: Yeah. Sydney Boys High. JH: A Sydney boy. FB: Yeah. JH: All through. FB: And I made up my mind. I just didn’t, this business of running around sticking bayonets into people didn’t appeal to me. So I made up my mind that I was going to join the Air Force when I turned eighteen [laughs] and so I did. JH: And was that because you were in the — FB: ATC. JH: ATC. FB: Yes. Yes. JH: When you were growing up. FB: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That’s that was. JH: Yeah. FB: I had this interest in it, you know. Like most boys of that age, nineteen, twenty, they all imagined themselves to be Paddy Finnucane or somebody, you know. He was a fighter ace. I don’t know whether you remember the name, do you? Paddy Finucane. JH: No. I don’t. I have heard about it. FB: Yeah. JH: But I can’t remember any details to be quite honest. FB: So that’s where it all started. JH: So, you were following the progress of the war. So what made you join up and when did you do that? FB: Well, I knew after I joined the ATC and everything. Of course, when you turn eighteen, if you don’t join up in the Air Force or the Navy or something they conscript you in to the Army and I couldn’t imagine myself in the Army sticking bayonets in people so [laughs] So I, for my eighteenth birthday I went down to Bourke Street or somewhere. Somewhere in Sydney and signed on the dotted line. And most of the call ups were on a, for a Saturday and I got this one for the Thursday and they said my name had been accepted and so the next move is that you’ll be sent up to Kingaroy in Queensland to do your ATS, and the train leaves at, sets off at half past seven tonight and you’re on it. JH: That’s unusual, going to to Kingaroy rather than — FB: Yes. JH: New South Wales. FB: They must have been short of numbers you know to make up the intake. So I finished up in Kingaroy in November and the dirt and the red mud and the red dust. Shocking climate. JH: And what sort of training were you doing at Kingaroy? FB: You don’t do any flying at Kingaroy. It’s all ground stuff, you know, medical stuff and discipline and all that sort of thing. JH: Some square bashing. FB: Square bashing. That’s right. There was no flying at all until we went to Maryborough to do the wireless course, and they, you get flying instruction in the, in a Wackett trainer. A little single engine thing. Used to be a sort of a, do a competition amongst the crews there to see which of the first one that would have to do a crash landing because these things [laughs] they wouldn’t last. They were always sort of having to have a forced landing somewhere. These little CAC trainers there. JH: So this would have been, correct me if I’m, if I’m wrong, in 1943. FB: Yeah. JH: This second training. And — FB: The end of 1942 I went. JH: ’42. FB: Went to — JH: Kingaroy. FB: Kingaroy. JH: Yes. Yes. And I presume you would have been hearing some of the stories of the Bomber Command effort. FB: Oh yes. JH: In Europe. FB: Yes. JH: Did that put any second thoughts in your mind? FB: Well, it didn’t put any negative thoughts in there because you thought you’d, you know, ‘I’m here to win the war.’ JH: Invincible. Yeah. Yes. FB: Personally. JH: Yes. And — FB: You just think you were [pause] you were just quite sure that you were going to survive it all and that’s it. JH: Yes. But tell me a little bit about the final training. Maybe you did some gunnery training as well. FB: Yes. We finished up. We did our wireless course and [pause] at Maryborough in Queensland and then we went on to Evans Head. That was the Bombing and Gunnery School there and they were flying Fairey Battles. One plane would have a drogue, dragging a drogue and then the guns that we were using were from the First World War. A Vickers GO Gun. GO meaning gas operated and two, two gunners went up in this plane and they used to, your bullets were in a round canister sort of thing with the tips exposed and I dipped mine. Two of us went up. They dipped the tips of these things in red for you and blue for me, and they could then work out how many hits you’d got with this Vickers GO gun thing. And that was our gunnery course at Evans Head. JH: So it sounds like you passed that ok. FB: Oh yeah. JH: Main colours as they say. FB: The worst part of it was the smell of that glycol. It’s a sort of a, like a burnt oil smell. Boy, it makes you feel a little bit ill just smelling it. JH: Fred, at what point did you learn that you were being posted in, in Europe rather than the Pacific campaign? FB: Well, when, when you finished up at Evans Head that was your last training post. And I think they told us right then that we were going to get leave and we’d be issued with another uniform I think and, and said, ‘You’re going to be posted to the UK.’ Joining Bomber Command over there. We didn’t think that was terrible. ‘We’ll fix Hitler,’ you know [laughs] ‘We’ll, fix Hitler.’ JH: Sure. So I assume an adventurous trip to the UK. FB: Yeah. JH: By steamer. FB: Yeah. Straight across. We went across the Atlantic. Not the Atlantic. We went across the Pacific on the Matsonia which was a cruise ship. American cruise ship. No escort. It just did a few sort of zigzags as it went across. Went across. Went across the Pacific to San Francisco and then they put us on a train in San Francisco and we went across America by train in a sleeper. Lovely. JH: And how many of you were there in the group? FB: I think that course there was fifty of us I think in that course. Fifty Australians. And we went across to leave and had a week’s leave in New York. Spent every penny we had plus drew some of the next week’s pay and [laughs] JH: Yes. FB: Really whooped it up. JH: Then you had to run the gauntlet crossing the Atlantic. FB: That’s right. That’s right. The first thing we saw when we got, took us to the, in the, whatever the docks are in New York I just forget what they are there was the Lusitania that was scuttled or something in in, in the harbour. And as you get on to the boat the Queen, we went across on the Queen Elizabeth at that point and you get on there, you look straight down and here’s the remains of the Lusitania on its side. A very nice welcome, you know. This could happen to you. JH: Back to reality. Yeah. Yes. FB: This went across the Pacific, across the Atlantic on its own, just zigzagging. JH: Zigzagging. Yeah. FB: But no, no escort. We never saw any allied planes or allied — JH: Yes. FB: Boats or anything. Just should be alright mate. JH: Yeah. So was that to Liverpool? FB: No. JH: Or up to Scotland? FB: Greenock. JH: Greenock. Yes. FB: Greenock in Scotland. Yes. JH: Yes. And still you had no idea exactly where you were going to be posted or what squadron at that stage. FB: Not at that stage. Then you were sent, the Australians had a holding camp over there. Listen to this. A holding camp over there called 11 PDRC. Personnel Dispatch and Reception Centre, and do you know where this camp was? Where the, where the 11 PDRC was? JH: No. FB: It was in the, in fact it was in two hotels. Two of the best hotels in Brighton [laughs] Right on the sea front. You could look out your window and there was the sea front and all that. You weren’t allowed on to the seafront of course but that was the 11 PDRC. We thought how long has this been going on? And then, and the town was not open to civilians so we had all the town to our, to our own self. The town of Brighton. And we had a ball there. JH: And then the Nissen huts was it? FB: No. No. We were staying in these two hotels. JH: Yeah. FB: The Grand and the Metropole. JH: Yes. FB: But then after the war, well first of all we’d been there a few weeks, they said, ‘Listen, you blokes need a bit of toughening up.’ So they sent us up to a toughening up course at Whitley Bay that was run by the RAF Regiment. The RAF Regiment was a sort of a semi-army unit. JH: Yeah. FB: Operated by the RAF, and it was a toughening up school. You know, running up and down on the seaside. JH: Sergeant majors. Yeah. FB: With your signet on. JH: Yes. FB: Yeah. 11 PDRC. JH: Yeah. So, so from there did you go to an OTU? FB: Well, the first one you go to is an AFU. JH: AFU. Yeah. FB: That was at Millom. You go up there and just flying in an Avro Anson and getting accustomed to British radio expertise and so on and that. So that was about adjusting to English sort of operational — JH: Yes. FB: Conditions. JH: And at what stage did you crew up? Was that after that? FB: Yes. From OTU. No. Not OTU. From AFU they sent you to an OTU. JH: Yeah. FB: And that was down in Bed, yes in Bedfordshire and the CO came straight out when we got there. He said, ‘Now, look,’ he said, ‘The way we do this — ’ he said, is we all, you sort of get together at the White Angel Hotel or something in Aylesbury. JH: Yeah. FB: And you, you know talk around the blokes and you say, you know, you’re a wireless operator or I’m a navigator and how about crewing up? And so you crew up. JH: Yeah. FB: And they said, ‘It’s not binding. When you wake up the next morning and say, ‘I couldn’t possibly fly for that bastard, [laughs] So what?’ The raids were just cancelled. You were, you crew up again with somebody else. JH: I wonder where it was in Bedfordshire. FB: Oakley. Oakley and Westcott. JH: Oh, ok. Yes. Yeah. FB: Westcott was the holding — JH: Yes. FB: Station. JH: Yeah. And was this not just Australians. This was British and — FB: British and — JH: Commonwealth. FB: New Zealanders. Yeah. JH: Yes. Yeah. Ok. FB: South Africans. We had South Africans on the squadron. JH: Yes. Yes. FB: All on the OTU. JH: Yes. And, and then how did you end up at, in Tempsford with the squadron? FB: Well — JH: How did that happen? FB: I really don’t know whether we were asked to do it or not but we had a very conscientious bomb aimer and bomb aiming was very [pause], good bomb aiming was very necessary because we did a lot of map reading. But we were doing mostly low level trips into the occupied countries. Very low level. And so the bomb aimer used to go down in to the nose and then he’d actually map read. JH: Yes. FB: Map read. JH: Not the navigator. The bomb aimer. FB: The bomb aimer. Yeah. The navigator would keep the overall — JH: Yes. FB: Navigation but the bomb aimer would be specific. He’d be sitting in the nose. JH: Yes. FB: And he’d be directing the pilot. JH: Yes. FB: ‘Left. Left. Right. Right.’ And so on. JH: So, I mean the reason I asked about that is that you ended up with a very unusual almost top secret. FB: Yeah. JH: Squadron. FB: We were. JH: And maybe that was one of the factors in the, in the selection of your crew. FB: Yeah. JH: Do you think it was? FB: I’m sure. I’m sure our bomb aimer, our bomb aimer was one of those conscientious blokes. He wanted to be, he wanted to be involved and he was very very capable of map reading and so forth. He had all the attributes. So I’m sure he had something to do with it. JH: Yes. FB: And so we were just, when that finished we were posted to Tempsford. JH: Yes. So, so what was it? How did you get there? You ended up in Bedford or Cambridge and then across to Tempsford. FB: Well, I don’t know what, what trains or anything. JH: Yes. FB: If we couldn’t make it, find you somewhere to sleep for the night and they tell you nothing and it’s not until the next day that they get you assigned and tell you exactly what’s going on at Tempsford and the secret work they’re doing and all very hush hush, and hush hush and don’t say a word to anybody. So whether, I’ve got an idea our bomb aimer might have sort of asked a few questions as to whether we could go on this special duties squadron. He was that sort of a guy. So that’s where we finished. JH: How different was it to other bases do you think? Presumably there wasn’t a signpost, “SOE —“ FB: No. No. JH: “This way.” FB: Well, I suppose the main difference was that it was all single flights. You’d be in a different crew to me and you’d be in a target to Norway. I might be out that night and I might be on a target up to Denmark and you didn’t know. But I didn’t tell you where I was going and you didn’t tell me where you were going. It was all terribly secret stuff. JH: So — FB: Say nothing. JH: Yes. FB: Don’t tell anybody sort of thing. JH: Yes. So what, what sort of aircraft were used for these operations? FB: Well, at that stage we had our first, the first operational aircraft we went on to were Stirlings because they were doing all low levels to the Resistance movements. We were only flying at a few hundred feet. JH: Yes. FB: And we used the treetops and so — JH: Is it true you only went out on, you know like full moon? FB: Yeah. JH: Or moonlight. FB: Yeah. That’s right. JH: Yes. FB: Well, you had to you see. Which was more important? You did your [pause] going, go out on a moonlit night so as you can see where you’re going and low level. You know, you had no accompanying, no accompanying planes with you. You were on your own, low level and there was no fighter escort or anything. You was just low level from here. It’s a long haul from Tempsford up to somewhere in Norway and you burst. You, well it’s hard to believe but when you leave Tempsford it’s all low level from then on ‘til you get to the drop zone, and it’s, you know, you actually, your objective is a field no bigger than a paddy field. And that’s where the drop zone is and that’s where the Resistance guys are. And you, if you think you’ve got to the drop zone they can hear you coming. The Resistance group can hear you coming and they’ll come out and flash a torch. A signal. And you, you just opened your bomb doors and let the stuff go and wave them goodbye and off they go and get rid of it the best way they can. JH: I would guess the Germans on full moon or moonlit nights would be — FB: Watching. JH: On full alert. FB: Watching for it. Yeah. JH: And would, did they ever try and decoy these signals? FB: Yes. They would. Yeah. They would. Yeah. JH: Yes. FB: We never struck it. JH: Yes. So this was dropping off agents I presume. FB: And supplies. JH: Parachuting. And supplies. FB: And supplies. Yeah. JH: Were you on operations? I guess a smaller aircraft where you actually land and picked up people? FB: Well that’s, that was, we were 138 Squadron based at Tempsford. JH: Yeah. FB: And there was 161 Squadron based at Tempsford and they were flying Hudsons. JH: Hudsons. Yeah. FB: Which was a twin engine — JH: Yes. FB: Plane. They wouldn’t land unless it was, it would have to have the proper provisions for them to land. JH: Yeah. FB: The main planes they were flying in, these were mainly operations in to France was a, was a Lysander. JH: Single engine is that? FB: Yeah. It was a single engine. JH: Yes. FB: And that would actually land and drop off these Joes in a field. Or pick them up and take them back to Tempsford. They would actually land on the — JH: Yes. So, that was 161 also. FB: Yeah. JH: Not 138. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. FB: 138 was confined to the Stirlings, and 161 had the Hudsons and the — JH: Yes. FB: The Hudsons and Lysanders there. JH: I would guess the problem for the Lysander if they’re landing and get stuck in the, in the field. FB: Well — JH: Did that ever happen? FB: Not that I know of. JH: No. FB: I suppose they could have picked a muddy field. JH: Yeah. FB: You had to put in a report when you got back from these operations as to what, what you thought of the landing site that they’d given you. Whether you thought it was suitable for future. For use. JH: Yes. FB: Or whether it was a little bit dickie or so on so — JH: Yes. FB: There was full cooperation with, with the Army and the other [unclear] concerned — JH: Yes. FB: As to whether it was going to work or not. JH: Yes. FB: There’s some funny stories come out of it. I don’t know whether you’ve heard this one or not but [laughs] they had one where, I could go back to the start. Yes. JH: Tell me a bit about the agents. I I would think that you didn’t know their names, for example. FB: No. You — JH: You couldn’t really talk to them too much. FB: Yeah. You could talk to them. You could talk to them. We spent the night with one in particular. We took him over to Denmark and we came back, heading back to England across the North Sea and we had a radio message to say, ‘Don’t go back to Tempsford. Go to Lossiemouth.’ Up in the north of Scotland. So we went to Lossiemouth and just put us all, the whole seven crew plus this agent, they put us all into one hut and we had a great old talk to this bloke about it. We said to him, ‘Well, what happens when you, when you, if they catch you.’ He said, ‘Well, first of all— ’ he opened up his coat and he had this great big Luger pistol in his, in his coat and he said, he said, but he said, ‘They’ll interrogate me,’ he said, ‘They’ll torture me to find out more.’ He said, ‘Then when they are finally satisfied they’ll shoot me.’ He said, ‘I am not covered by the Geneva Convention in regard to prisoners of war.’ JH: Yeah. FB: Because it’s not a, it’s not a wartime project that that they’re on. So I don’t know what the Germans would have categorised them as but they would just shoot them when they’d finished with them. JH: Yes. Well, what about you and the crew, Fred? If you were shot down and captured by the Germans if, if they had any inkling that you were involved in special operations was there a feeling that you could get, could get harsher treatment from the Germans? FB: I don’t know what happened. Some of my friends were taken POW but I don’t know. I’ll say this for the Germans they stuck by the rules of warfare, you know. They stuck by the, whatever the Geneva Convention said about that. The Germans stuck by it. They were very, well, they were a military nation and if that’s the way it should be done that was the way it was going to be done but — Other: Mr Bowman. FB: Yes. Other: Oh, hi John. JH: Hello. Other: Happy hour upstairs Mr Bowman. FB: Oh, I wouldn’t mind. Other: You can bring your friend upstairs. JH: Yeah. We’re just doing an interview then we’ll come up. Other: You can carry on drinking as well while you’re interviewing. FB: You’re trying to lead me astray aren’t you? Other: Or maybe the other way around. JH: [laughs] Thank you. FB: Oh, deary me. JH: Ok, I’ll leave that in there Fred. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we were talking about you had some friends that were captured and you know in general the Germans were, were pretty good. FB: Yes. They were. JH: Yeah. Yeah. FB: They stuck to the rules of the game. JH: Yeah. One thing I’d like to ask you. I think you’ve touched on it is, is the number of countries that you went out to on these operations. You mentioned Norway. FB: Norway. Denmark. Norway. JH: And France would have featured quite a bit — FB: Denmark, France, Holland mainly. JH: Holland and Belgium. Yeah. Yeah. FB: But I didn’t become operational until July 1944. JH: Yeah. FB: Of course, in July 1944 it was all France. JH: Yes. FB: But then as, as the British Army swept across France the operations converted then up to Norway and Denmark. JH: Yes. FB: Which was a long way away. JH: So were you kind of following the lines? Keeping ahead of the, the front lines in operations to some extent. FB: Yes. Yes. Yes. There was no point in getting behind them. You had to be in front. We had to be in front of them all the time and they had a special identification. They had armbands. I’ve got one sat in the window frame there. You’ll see it. The Cross of Lorraine. And there were armbands that we dropped to the Resistance movements and they had the Cross of Lorraine and when they decided that they would come out and surrender. Well, not surrender but join up with the advancing — JH: Yeah. FB: British and American armies. That they would wear these armbands to say that they were friends and — JH: Yes. So the nature of the operations sounds like it was changing. The Resistance. As the front lines were going east they became more open. FB: Yeah. JH: More overt. The Resistance. FB: Well, towards the end of that stage the only two German occupied countries left were Norway and Denmark, the others had all been liberated. JH: Yes. FB: And that’s when they, that’s when they said to us, ‘Oh, listen fellas. You’ve been [bludging] around for too long. We’re going to stick you on main force.’ [laughs]. So we finished up at a Lancaster Finishing School. JH: That’s interesting. Just before we get on to that I read somewhere that the peak effort with the SOE work was about June, July ’44 which is — FB: Yeah. JH: Which was when you arrived there. FB: Started there. Yeah. JH: So it was full on then. FB: Yes. Yeah. JH: And so these operations were there occasions where you go out to say some, some target field in France and you couldn’t find the target area? Or you know, did you hit the target area every time? FB: Not every time. No. No. You see, it could be any number of reasons. The whole drop area, drop zone might have been taken over by the Germans. They might have found them and no doubt they shot them and so that was one reason. They [pause] but — JH: So a pretty good success rate to your, your missions. FB: Well, I think we did. Yes. JH: Yeah. FB: I mean we didn’t have any of this flash blooming navigational equipment that they’ve got today. JH: Yes. FB: And we actually had to find, say in Norway an actual paddock. And in the bushes around that paddock was the Resistance group waiting. Waiting to hear an aeroplane. JH: Yes. FB: A Stirling coming. And then when they were identified as being a Stirling they’d come out and start waving to you. We’d make the drop and off we’d go. So — JH: Was there radio contact with the people on the ground? FB: There could have been. There was what they called S phones I think they called them. JH: Yeah. FB: But we never used it. JH: Yeah. FB: But, but we did carry this sort of portable phone to contact them but we never saw any reason to have to use it so — JH: It would be quite dangerous I should think, communicating with the ground crew with the Germans trying to vector in. FB: Yeah. No thanks. JH: Yeah. Yeah. FB: It opens up too many avenues. JH: Yeah. So, of all those operations, Fred maybe give me one or two examples of ones that really stick out for whatever reason. FB: Well, I think at that time when we dropped those two Norwegians in to Norway stands out in my mind. JH: Just finding them. Finding the place to start with. FB: And they did. JH: And that’s a long, one long trip. FB: Normally there’s somebody to meet them but they said, ‘No. Nobody will meet us. You get to the drop zone, where you think the drop zone is and kick us out.’ You know, out you go. ‘And we’ll find our destination from there.’ They carried their skis with them. They were sent out when they were shot out of the aircraft and they just teamed up with somebody that they would have gone to. So we had to be a hundred percent accurate when we were dropping so as they knew where they were. JH: Yes. FB: And knew which way to go to meet up with their, with their mates. JH: Yes. FB: And the next day SOE contacted us and said that the drop was successful. JH: Yes. FB: They were landed safely. You got them in the right place and everything else. JH: Yes. FB: So we were rather pleased with that. And that, that same people that I made contact with after the war. JH: Yes. FB: Mr and Mrs, well he was Mr Fosse. JH: Yeah. FB: I just, through the Norwegian Embassy in Canberra and they told, told me that yes they had got in touch with Mr Fosse. First of all to see whether he was happy to talk to me and he said, ‘Yes, I am.’ He said, ‘But I’m deaf. I’m not very good but my wife could take all the messages.’ And so I got on the phone to Norway and this voice answered the phone. A woman. And I said like a couple of, you know. She only speaks Norwegian so this is going to be a bit of a problem [laughs] So, I said, ‘Oh, are you Mrs Fosse?’ ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘Well, look, Bowman’s my name.’ I said, ‘You’ve probably been expecting a call from me.’ She said, ‘Yes. Yes.’ I said, ‘Oh, I can’t speak Norwegian,’ I said and so, you know, ‘What do we do? Speak English?’ She said, ‘Don’t worry, mate,’ she said, ‘I’m a Scot.’ [laughs] So, I said, ‘Look, that’s great. That’s great,’ I said, ‘So my name’s Fred. What’s your name?’ Whatever it was. And we had a great old conversation and he was sitting down beside her and I asked about the drop and she said it was spot on.’ She said, ‘They landed in the snow and it sloped down towards a lake.’ JH: Yeah. FB: She said they would have rolled down that snow in to the lake, she said only they came up against a tree which saved them from [laughs] saved them from freezing to death. Honestly, I had a great conversation with her. JH: Yeah. Did you ever meet up face to face? FB: Not meet up. JH: No. FB: But I had a lot of, a lot off the telephone conversations. JH: Yeah. How marvellous. FB: Yeah. JH: Yeah. FB: Yeah. JH: Gosh. Yeah. FB: That’s why. So she was the one I said that, I said that sort of Mr Fosse went up to the north of England to do his training to become an agent and he met this girl and he went back after the war. JH: Yes. FB: And married her. JH: What a story. FB: They got married. JH: What a story. FB: Yeah. JH: Yeah. Well, Fred, why don’t we move on to when you went on to heavy bomber conversion. Lancaster conversion. What, what happened there? FB: Well, the [pause] at that stage when we did that all the other work, the other type of work was, was finished, you know. I mean virtually the whole of occupied Europe except Norway and Denmark had been relieved or released or whatever the word is. JH: Liberated. Yeah. FB: Liberated. Yeah. JH: Yeah. FB: And they said to us, well look, you know, over you go to Main Force Bomber Command. So we went and did a conversion course up at Blyton I think it was. JH: Yes. Was this the end of ’44 or 1945 now? FB: No. 1945. JH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. FB: And so we went up there and did this conversion course on to, on to Lancasters and joined Main Force which was an entirely different thing because on this special duties thing that we were doing with the drop zones in to the Resistance movements was all low level and of course the other Bomber Command is all twenty thousand feet. JH: In formation. Yeah. FB: Oh no. Not formation. When I say not form, not the strict formation that the Americans used to do. JH: Yes. FB: You [pause] it’s a sort of a loose formation. You sort of congregate up around the Wash somewhere and you don’t fly in formation but you leave there in a group. JH: Yes. FB: And they used to divide at least, suppose there were six hundred planes on a job JH: A stream. Yeah. FB: There might be four meeting up times. JH: Yeah. FB: You say, you know when there was one group and then another ten minutes later the next group of that group sort of — JH: Yes. FB: Come to the fore and — JH: Yeah. So, so were you assigned to a new squadron or was it your squadron en masse? FB: No. No. It was our squadron there. JH: Yeah. Ok. FB: Which of course, it was, it was our squadron and they sent us to a new base. [unclear] Anyway, it was, it was a new base. JH: Was it Lincolnshire or in Cambridgeshire? FB: No. No. East Anglia. We had Cambridge groups. JH: Yes. FB: Bury St Edmunds. That sort of area. JH: Was this Number 3 Group. FB: Yes. All Number 3. JH: Yeah. Still Number 3. FB: Yeah. JH: Yeah. Yeah. FB: But as I say all the operations were initiated by SOE but Bomber Command — JH: Yes. FB: As such didn’t come into it. JH: Yes. What the hardened bomber, Bomber Command crews what did, what did they make of you guys coming out of the blue? FB: There was a little bit of a [laughs] there was what you might call a settling in period [laughs] JH: Yes. FB: Because we went over. Oh, I forget where we were based then, and of course this bomber crew was already, you know was already there and we were the sort of new boys on it. JH: Yeah. FB: The new boys. A lot of bloody skites you are. JH: Yes. FB: The usual story. JH: So, was it sorted out in the pub? FB: Yeah. JH: On the dartboard. FB: Oh yeah. It doesn’t take long. The old, the old pub solves a lot of problem. You probably asked me that question, I think. How you crewed up? Did you? JH: Yes, I did. Yes. You went to the pub. FB: Went to the pub. JH: Yeah. Yeah. Not a bad place to start. FB: I mean the CO told you to do that. He said, ‘Go to the pub. Meet up, crew up and if you wake up the next morning and say, ‘I couldn’t possibly fly with that so and so, just tell them you can’t. You won’t be joining the crew.’ And find somebody else. JH: These, these days you’d do psychological profiling and see who matches up. FB: Oh yes. There would be a lot of, a lot of tests. JH: Yes. Yes. So, so, so you got on to some operations from there. FB: Yes, we did. We did. Funny, I think we only did three or four bombing operations. JH: Yes. FB: It, it was right at the finish of the war. JH: Yes. FB: And, but we, we did one that was probably worth recording. JH: Yes. FB: And it was to Kiel. JH: Submarines. Yeah. Submarine pens. FB: Kiel. Kiel Harbour. JH: Yeah. FB: They said, they said — JH: Yeah. FB: We were bombing dock installations and so on. JH: Docks. Yes. FB: So we went to Kiel and we were making our run in and the Pathfinders had been there ahead of us and so forth and the, all of a sudden we had this terrific explosion or something go underneath us because we were about twenty thousand feet. JH: Yes. FB: And this explosion would have been on the ground. Anyway, we got back and reported it to intelligence at the interrogation and they said, ‘Oh, all the crews are talking about this.’ Anyway, so a day or so later the headlines, “RAF sink the German pocket battleship the Admiral von Scheer in Kiel Harbour.” Somebody, some plan ahead of us must have dropped the bomb down the funnel. JH: Down the funnel. Yeah. FB: And up she blew in Kiel Harbour. JH: Yes. FB: Boy. Yeah. JH: Yeah. And in those operations I’m, I’m guessing that the fighters and the flak were manageable at that stage. FB: Oh yes. It had eased off considerable. I mean, I’d have hated to have been doing the same operation in 1943 as what we were doing in early 1945. Early 1945 the Germans were — Other 2: Sorry Fred. FB: That’s alright. Other 2: Come up for a drink you two if you like. FB: Pardon? JH: Yes. So, so then it was all over I guess pretty soon after that. Were you in any operations bringing the POWs back? FB: Yeah. JH: Or Operation Manna. FB: Yeah. Manna. JH: For example. Yeah. FB: Yeah. We were in the one, the one bringing the POWs back was called Exodus, wasn’t it? JH: Yes. FB: Yeah. JH: Exodus. That’s it. FB: That we flew them back from Juvencourt. JH: You might, you might have flown my father back. FB: Oh, for goodness sake. JH: He was a POW. Yeah. FB: We flew a lot of Sikhs back. JH: Yes. FB: And they were very very disciplined too and I, one came up to me with a little box brownie which was quite illegal [laughs] And I said, ‘You line up. You line up there and I’ll take a photograph of you.’ Oh, he yelled out two few commands and this whole group, twenty four I think we took, yes so they all lined up outside the aircraft. JH: Yes. FB: And — JH: And what about Operation Manna in Holland. FB: Manna. Yes. That was, that was very interesting. That was — JH: Yeah. FB: That was dropping the food into, into Holland. JH: Yes. FB: And it was all dropped. Mostly it was either in sacks. JH: Yes. FB: Where they had just, we dropped them on to a muddy football oval or something and something went falling into the mud didn’t do any damage to them. JH: Yes. FB: And then we just dropped them there and, and went on our way. But the thing that struck me was the first one we did the war hadn’t finished. It was a couple of days before the war finished. JH: Yes. FB: But the Dutch people arranged with the German High Command or something to allow us to go ahead and drop this food. JH: Yeah. FB: To the Dutch people and the Germans said, ‘Yes, we’ll let you go in but you’ve got to keep at a certain height. JH: Yes. FB: You’ve got to have your guns pointing northwards. JH: Yeah. FB: And do this. Do this. JH: Yes. FB: You get one warning signal otherwise bang bang. JH: I’ve read about this. I’ve read about this. FB: Yeah. JH: Yeah. FB: And, and the thing I that always remember the first time we went and the war hadn’t finished. They had to, before the war officially finished over there and the Germans were in command and it was all done very Germanic, you know. Disciplined. The next day we went after that the Germans had gone. They’d said, let’s get back to Germany and the Dutch people had taken over. JH: Yes. FB: And along an embankment as we flew in on the starboard side on an embankment they’d put, they’d got old sheets of paper or just sheets of — JH: Yes. FB: Bedding sheets or something and they had this sign up, “Thanks RAF.” And, and honestly that sort of brought tears to your eyes to think of it, you know. JH: Yes. FB: One of the very few decent jobs of Bomber Command, I think. JH: Yes. Well, my wife and I used to live in Holland in the ‘70s and we met people that still talked about Operation Manna. FB: Yeah. JH: Because there was absolutely no food. FB: That’s right. JH: They were eating, they were eating tulip bulbs, and they were very thankful of this Operation Manna. These people we talked to. FB: But I’ve never forgotten that sign. It was quite big letters. JH: That would have — FB: “Thanks RAF,” you know. JH: Yeah. FB: That’s the first time any, anybody’s thanked us for what we’d been doing [laughs] JH: That’s as good as a campaign medal. FB: Yeah. JH: Well, tell me a little about what happened then. I know, I know a lot of Bomber Command air crew especially the Aussies all went down to Brighton at some stage. FB: That’s right. JH: And my, my father went down. He was there on his honeymoon. FB: Yeah. JH: And he met up with his mates from prison camp. FB: Oh, for goodness sake. JH: So my mother wasn’t that impressed because they were down the pub. FB: Yeah. JH: On their honeymoon. FB: I agree with your mother [laughs] Yeah. N [pause] Yes they were, they sent us to a place called Gamston I think it was. Gamston, somewhere. It was a holding unit and we just, they said to us, ‘You can go on leave. You can go on leave for as long as you like as long as you keep us informed where you’re going.’ So we had free rail travel and — JH: Marvellous. Yeah. FB: Yeah. JH: And then, and then you were allotted a berth in a, on a ship. FB: On the Andes. Yeah. JH: Yes. FB: Yeah. Boy. JH: Was that through the Suez Canal? FB: Yeah. JH: That way. FB: Yeah. Through the Suez Canal. JH: Yes. Yeah. You weren’t on the same ship as Don Browning, our friend. FB: Well, I could have been. JH: Yeah. Yeah. FB: I could have been. You wouldn’t know. There was — JH: Yes. Yes. FB: I mean as I say we were packed on. Goodness me. JH: Yeah. FB: I don’t know how many people were on a ship. JH: Yes. FB: Yeah. JH: So what was the feeling? So where did you arrive? Was it in Sydney? FB: No. JH: Your landfall. In Melbourne? FB: We went to Melbourne and then it was going on to New Zealand. It had a lot of New Zealand — JH: Yes. FB: Airmen. So it was going on to New Zealand and we had to change ship on to the Stratheden. JH: Yes. FB: To come up to Sydney. JH: Yeah. So you came in through the Heads and — FB: Beautiful day. Beautiful. JH: Yeah, and family waiting. FB: Yeah. At Bradfield Park. JH: Yes. FB: Yeah. So [unclear] JH: Yes. FB: It didn’t take long to find them. JH: Yeah. So, so what happened? I suppose you had to get a life. Get a career. FB: Oh, no. I’d started in the accountancy business and I’d passed. JH: Oh, yes. Yeah. FB: One or two intermediate examinations and — JH: So you took off where you left off. FB: Thank goodness I had enough sense at that stage to say well I must persevere with this and get, get qualified. JH: Yes. FB: And I did in that sense to do that. JH: Yeah. FB: I didn’t have much sense to do anything else. JH: Yes. Yeah. So then you started a family. You married. FB: Yeah. All those things. Yeah. JH: Yeah. FB: But I really didn’t have many troubles settling down I don’t think. JH: Yes. FB: You did get your odd outbursts, you know. JH: Yes. Yeah. One I was going to ask you whether the kind of very secretive operation you did, did you have to sign a secrecy form, you know. FB: No. JH: Thirty years or something. FB: No, didn’t have to sign anything. JH: Yeah. FB: You were told. You were told that was top secret. JH: Yes. FB: And don’t you dare infringe it. JH: Yes. Yes. FB: Or else. JH: Yeah. Yes. Because I know my father didn’t talk about hardly anything. FB: Yeah. JH: Until later on in life. FB: No. JH: Yeah. FB: No. All the stuff at Tempsford in those days was top, top secret, you know. JH: Yes. Have you been back to Tempsford? FB: No. I’m not able to travel like I used to. JH: Ok. FB: It’s a bit of a problem. JH: Well, I’ll tell you what. Because I go back there to right there where, every so often where I was born and I’ll visit it for you and I’ll have a look. FB: Well, thank you. JH: There’s probably not much there. FB: They, they have a yearly get together. I’ve probably got — JH: Yes. Yeah. FB: Some of them there. JH: Yeah. FB: So do you want to make yourself known? JH: Yes. And is there a pub there? Well, maybe you weren’t allowed to go to pubs in Tempsford. Did, was there a local pub? FB: Sandy. At Sandy. Sandy is in — JH: Sandy. Yeah. Yes. FB: There was a pub at Sandy. JH: Yes. FB: We used to call it the Sandy Battle. JH: Well, I can’t believe it. My, my people used to farm all around Sandy and, yeah. FB: For goodness sake. JH: So I’ll do that. So — FB: I just wish I could travel. JH: Yes. FB: And go back to Tempsford and have a, because they do have a big reunion there once a year. JH: Yes. FB: It’s amazing really how many people will — JH: Yes. FB: Must have got together to preserve the story of Tempsford. JH: Yes. FB: Incredible. And prince what’s his name? Prince Charles is a great supporter of them. JH: Yes. FB: He goes to their functions, of course. JH: Yeah. FB: So, I don’t suppose, I suppose the other squadrons, Australian squadrons, and they probably have much the same thing. 460 Squadron. JH: Yeah. I don’t think you hear so much about Tempsford as the other bases. FB: No. JH: Mainly because it was probably, you know very secretive. FB: Yeah. JH: In the war. FB: It sort of got something to do with royalty too because the commanding officer of Tempsford was the King’s pilot, Group Captain Fielden. JH: Oh right. FB: And he was, he was station commander. JH: Was he the station commander? FB: Yeah. JH: Yeah. FB: Group Captain Fielden. JH: Fielden. That’s interesting. So there’s a special interest from Prince Charles. Yeah. FB: So he became, he was knighted so I don’t know whether they call him sir now. Like they did with me [laughs] Yeah. JH: Well, Fred this has been very interesting. I was going to ask you, you participate in veteran’s activities? FB: Oh yes. I do, and I’ve had quite a bit to do with them because I don’t know where it all started but a lot of people have been writing books and writing articles on, on the special duty squadrons and Tempsford squadrons, and I guess I’m probably one of the very few still above the ground. JH: Yes. FB: And so I well get involved. JH: Yes. FB: Tell them what was is. JH: So is there an Association here in Australia or are you linked up with a UK Association? FB: Well, no. I think that was, what did they call them? ATVA. The Australian Tempsford Veterans Association, I think. ATV. JH: Ok. I didn’t know there was one quite to be quite honest. FB: Yeah. There is one. Yes. JH: Yeah. FB: But I haven’t, physically speaking I haven’t been able to travel. JH: Yes. FB: So, that’s my only regret. That I haven’t been able to go. Because they are big events. Once a year they have it at Tempsford. JH: Yes. FB: They come from near and far. JH: Yes. FB: I don’t think there’s too many of us left who served on the squadron operationally. JH: Yeah. Yes. FB: But Prince Charles is a great supporter of it. He, he goes to all the functions and of course his, he, he would know Group Captain Fielden of course. JH: Yes. Yes. Well, Fred I’ve really enjoyed this interviewing you today and learning about this special duties. FB: Yeah. JH: Type of operations that you were on. FB: It is very interesting, isn’t it? I mean, I’ve had some very interesting discussions with these agents at times, you know saying, ‘What happens if this happens? What will you do?’ JH: And I believe you had a word for them. FB: Joes. JH: Joes. Yeah. Yes. That’s it. I’d read that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. FB: I, I did write a book on it as a matter of fact. JH: Oh, you have. Show it to me and I’ll mention it in the interview here. Yeah. FB: Look, if you promise to give it back to me. JH: Yes. FB: Having said that where is it? Deary deary me where is it? [pause] JH: Is it in these shelves here? FB: Yeah. JH: Let me see. FB: Yes. Joes. JH: What’s it called? The book. FB: Oh, there’s been quite a few books written on it really. See what a shambles this is. Oh blimey. That’s, I don’t know whether you saw this or not. That’s the book that’s for me. JH: Yes. FB: Yeah. JH: Yeah. I I had a copy the other day for you but you’ve got it. Yes. Is it up here? Is that it? FB: No. JH: SOE. FB: Yeah. Look. SOE. Oh, that’s one of them. I’ve probably got all sorts of books on it. JH: Yes. FB: Oh, deary me. What’s over here? [pause] That’s the book. JH: Oh, thank you. Yeah. For the interview Fred has shown me a book he has written. It’s called, “You’ll Be Too Young.” And it’s his memoirs and — FB: If you promise to return it you can take it and read it if you want. JH: Well, thank you very much. Yes. So, it was published in 2005 in Sydney. FB: And it’s all true. JH: Well, thank you very much. FB: No bulldust [laughs] Now, if you — JH: Thank you Fred. FB: If you promise to return it. JH: We’ll sign off now. Thank you very much for the interview. FB: Oh, you’re welcome. JH: So, I’ll stop the tape here. FB: That’s all I ask is that it gets returned because — JH: I will for sure. FB: I’m going to have to approach them any day now to see if they can give me a reprint on all this. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Frederick Arthur Bowman Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Horsburgh Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ABowmanFA181121, PBowmanFA1801 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:59:00 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Australian Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Wehrmacht. Kriegsmarine Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Australia Denmark France Germany Great Britain Norway England--Bedfordshire England--Buckinghamshire England--Cumbria Germany--Kiel New South Wales Description An account of the resource Frederick Bowman was born in Sydney in 1924. He was a member of the Air Training Corps, and when he was 18 he joined the Air Force. He went to Kingaroy for basic training, and did his wireless course at Maryborough, and Evans Head for bombing and gunnery training. He arrived in UK at No. 11 Personnel Despatch & Receiving Centre RAAF in Brighton, and was posted to RAF Millom to the Advanced Flying Unit flying in Avro Ansons. He was posted to RAF Westcott where he crewed up, and was posted to 138 Special Duties Squadron based at RAF Tempsford, where he flew on operations to Scandinavia. Close to the end of the war he joined Bomber Command on bombing operations flying in Lancasters, notably to attack the docks at Kiel which resulted in the sinking of the German Pocket Battleship the Admiral Scheer. He published his memoirs in a book titled, “You Will Be Too Young to Die.” Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942 1943 1944-07 1945 138 Squadron Admiral Scheer Advanced Flying Unit aircrew Anson Bombing and Gunnery School crewing up Lancaster Operation Exodus (1945) Operation Manna (29 Apr – 8 May 1945) Operational Training Unit RAF Millom RAF Tempsford training wireless operator https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1096/11555/ARichGW180417.2.mp3 1dfb5b93d5b8a4c1cd76f00dfc7569d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rich, Wilfred W Rich Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Joe Rich (b. 1941). His father, Wilfred Rich (b. 1905) flew operations as a mid-upper gunner with 103 Squadron and became a prisoner of war. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Rich, WD Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document Other: Hang on- CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 17th of April 2018, and I’m in Hove with Gerry Rich, whose father, Wilfred Rich, was a mid-upper gunner in 103 Squadron at Elsham Wolds. What were the original- What was the earliest information you have about your father? What his parents did and so on? GR: That was as a child, I remember my father telling me that his father had been in the army and I seem to remember him telling me that he was a professor of music at the royal military school of music. I know that he was very much into music, my grandfather, because when he, when he finally passed away, he left my father a lot of books on all the great composers, you know, which, which my father was interested in. My grandmother was just an ordinary housewife, and they lived out their retirement years in Belgravia in London. That is, that is as much as I know- CB: Yeah, yeah. GR: -you know, about my grandparents. CB: Ok. GR: [Coughs] excuse me. CB: And where was your father born? GR: My father was born in Southsea in Hampshire, on the 3rd of January 1905. CB: And what was, what was his father doing then? GR: His father was in the army. CB: He was in the army then as well? GR: He was in the army then, yeah. CB: Right, ok, and where did he go to school? GR: Again, I'm not sure, but I’m just assuming that it was in Southsea, although obviously being in the army they travelled around quite a bit and he probably had various schools that he went to. CB: Yeah. GR: I mean in one period I know they were over in Ireland during the Irish rebellion in 1917 I think it was. So, he would’ve still been at school then. No- Yes, he would- CB: No, he won’t, will he. Oh, yeah, he will, yes because he was born in 1905, yes, he’d be ten. GR: He would’ve been still at school then, he was born in 1905. But again, I don’t, I don’t know. CB: Ok. GR: Literally don’t know. CB: So, school leaving age in those days was fourteen, what did he- Did he leave school then do you think? GR: Again, that is a complete, complete blank. I don’t know, I’ve got very little knowledge of his early life. I only know about his war years and, you know, various snippets of information. CB: When did he join the RAF? GR: He joined the RAF in January 1920, and he went to Cranwell as a boy, entered at fifteen, and he stayed there till around about 1927 when he left, and I believe came out of the air force, went into civilian life but trained as an air frame fitter and a rigger in- While he was at Cranwell I believe. But from 1927 onwards when he came out, again, my knowledge of what he did was, was very, very sketchy. He didn’t, he didn’t divulge a lot, you know. CB: And when did he re-join? GR: He re-joined in 1940. CB: We’ll pause there for a mo. GR: He went in- He re-joined the air force on the 20th of June 1940 at Cardington and then went to the 7- No 7 reception centre on the 23rd of June and on the 12th, I think it was, of July that year he went to No 9 school of tactical[?] training, stayed there until the- Round about the 22nd of November in 1940 again, where he joined 13th maintenance unit. Then on the 29th of October in 1941, he was posted to Iceland. Then- He was there until- I think it was about the 6th of March 1942 when he joined 56 Squadron, and on the 6th of August 1942 he’d been admitted into hospital at Ealing. CB: Ely? GR: Ely, I beg your pardon, Ely, and then discharged on the 17th of August ‘42 [unclear]. When he was discharged from hospital, he went to the AFDU, the air fighting development unit at Abbey Lodge and he went there on the 29th of November 1943 and then from there he went to 151, er 15 initial training wing where, his [chuckles] his love of being up in the air, which started when he was at Cranwell, when he was taken up in an Avro 504K and immediately fell in love with flying. That was rekindled, and then from there, on the 12th of February 1944 he went to No 1 air gunnery school and on the 30th of May ‘44, the operational training unit, and that was No 26 operational training unit. Right, so we started initial training wing. CB: So, he’s in gunnery? GR: Gunnery school, No 2 air gunnery school. CB: So, he went to the operational training unit? GR: Went to the operational training unit where, he knew he couldn’t be a pilot so- He still desperately wanted to fly so he decided to become a gunner and train for that. CB: So, the operational training unit is before they go to the squadron. GR: Right. CB: We’ll just stop there a mo. GR: Did I mention that before he went to the OTU? CB: Yeah. So, we’re on the OTU, so what did he do at the OTU? GR: At the OTU, he- They were- He was trained on Wellingtons and it’s where they were crewed up and that was carried out by placing all the aircrew’s, all the different roles, in a hanger and they managed to sort themselves out and form a crew. From there they went to the heavy conversion unit where they were trained on Lancasters, and from there they were posted- Or he was posted to 103 Squadron. CB: When was that? GR: That was in- On the 3rd of November 1944. CB: Right, ok. So, what detail do you have about the operations they did? GR: What, when he was shot down [unclear]? CB: You’ve got a list of operations, haven’t you? GR: Ah yes. He flew nineteen operations with 103 Squadron. The first one was on the 18th of November 1944, which is when ICOL[?] and the last one was on the 23rd of February 1945 Pforzheim where he was shot down and taken prisoner. And then he served the last months of the war out in a German prisoner of war camp and he was- He came back to this country in abut May 1945, I think. CB: Good, and you’ve got a picture there, what’s that picture? GR: The picture here is of him, taken at the German prisoner of war camp and- CB: That’s part of his ID card? GR: No, that’s- CB: It’s not? GR: That was taken by the German officials at the prisoner of war camp, with a number at the bottom, 11915, which I should imagine was his, his number which they gave him at the prisoner of war camp and as I say, he stayed there. He- A little story, while he was there, being very clever with his hands [coughs] excuse me- Being very clever with his hands, he made a telescopic toasting fork out of barbed wire which he managed to acquire from the fencing around the prison [chuckles] and, I don’t know what happened to it but it was quite something. A three pronged- Like a trident. Funnily enough, I remember us, after the war, using it to toast bread in front of the fire. But, as I say he was very clever with his hands having originally been an airframe fitter and a rigger and- He carried that, that skill right through his life. CB: Yeah. GR: He was always making things. CB: What did he say about his experiences in the prisoner of war camp? GR: Very little, if nothing at all. He did mention the fact that there was a separate compound in the prisoner of war camp for Russian prisoners who were treated very badly. There was no love lost between the Germans and the Russians, you know, especially the military personnel and he said they were treated really badly. But, apart from that he didn’t say anything, you know, didn’t say how he was treated whether it was badly or good or- I do remember him telling me that after he was shot down, he, he managed- He landed in Pforzheim, right in the centre while the air raid was going on, and he was caught by the local authorities, the local police or something, and handed over to the military and they made him stand in the town square while they covered him with fire arms from a safe point. I remember him saying that that was a very uncomfortable experience, and then they, they took him to a Luftwaffe base, where he was treated really well and he was interviewed by a German- A Luftwaffe officer who asked the normal questions, where are you based? What aircraft? You know, how many there? And etcetera. But he said, ‘All I can give is my name rank and number’, and he gave him his name, rank and number and the chap who spoke perfect English, and apparently was educated at Oxford said, ‘That’s alright old chap, no problem at all’. CB: [Chuckles] GR: And, before he left, because apparently they were marched down to the prison camp and I think he was saying it took about three days to march, and they gave them a slap-up meal at the Luftwaffe base before they went, which quite amazed him actually after what they’d done, you know, and after that obviously forgiven, as they used to say, ‘The war was over’, you know, and then he was repatriated in, in May and that was his war as experienced in the air force and of course he come out into civilian life then. CB: Was the camp a Luftwaffe, a Stalag Luft camp or was it plain Stalag? GR: Stalag Luft, it was a Stalag Luft. No, Stalag Luft, I think. Seem to remember him saying that. CB: Right. GR: But I couldn’t- I did try and chase it up online and talking to various people but I couldn’t, and the web master and the editor of the magazine up at Elsham, Keith McCray, he said that that’s often the case because as the allies advanced through Germany, when they came across, across a prisoner of war camp, the German authorities would destroy all records. So that’s probably how. CB: Mhmm. GR: Or the main reason why we don’t know where he was. CB: How did he get out of the camp? GR: He was repatriated by the Americans I believe, who were advancing through that part of Germany, and he got out that way and eventually got back to the UK and, as I say, demobbed in May. Although, it wasn’t May actually, he got back in May and I think it was later in the year that he was demobbed and I can’t remember exactly when. CB: What about the conditions in the camp, any idea? GR: No, again he didn’t say, he didn’t talk about it, so I’ve no idea what the conditions were like. I should imagine they were pretty uncomfortable, but I just don’t know for sure. CB: OK, we’ll stop there for a mo. When did you say he was demobbed? GR: I think it must’ve been- CB: Does it say there? I imagine they demobbed him quite quickly. Do you know how he got back? Did they fly him back? See where I am, near Aylesbury is Westcott. Now, Westcott and Oakley (the nearby airfield) received between them fifty-four-thousand POW’s, flown in by aircraft. It would be interesting to know whether he came in that way. GR: Again, that, that- It’s a blank, I don’t know. CB: Yeah, it doesn't matter. GR: I don’t know. CB: But he was demobbed in ‘45 was it? GR: In ‘45 yeah. CB: Yeah. GR: Yeah. CB: They tended to demob there prisoners first because of the conditions they’d been in. GR: Yeah, it looks as though it might’ve been August 1945 he was demobbed. CB: Ok. Now, what do you know about what he did when he left the RAF? Did he immediately go into something, or what happened? Did the family- Before, I'm not, I'm not rolling it yet. GR: I, I was still very young so I don’t really know. I know that he was in the catering industry, hotels and that, and they got an idea, went back into that. But we, we were living in North [coughs] pardon me. We were living in Northampton at the time, and we moved down to London so he could find work. CB: Yeah. GR: But he was away quite a bit, so I should imagine he got a job which necessitated him being away from home. CB: Mhmm, was the whole, the whole of his life after the war, was in catering, was it? GR: Yeah, he, he, he didn’t have a career as such CB: Ok, let’s- We might as well get this. So you were born in the war? Where, where- GR: I was born in [unclear] CB: In ‘41. GR: I was born in 1941 in Northampton. CB: Where were you and your mother living during the war? GR: Northampton. CB: Right, why was that? What was the significance of Northampton? GR: I don’t know, I don’t know [chuckles] quite honestly. We- It’s where we were, I’ve got, I’ve got a recollection of bombers flying over Northampton where, you know, we heard them where we were living and the sirens went off and my mother grabbing me and diving under the kitchen table [laughs], you know, for protection, although that wouldn't've given us much protection but, we did- Before we moved down to London, we went to my mother’s family, in a village called Flitwick in Bedfordshire, near Ampthill, and we stayed there for some time, until my father was demobbed, and then we all moved down to London. CB: So, when he was demobbed, what job did he do? GR: He went- He didn’t go back to his old job, so I think he just looked for a new job in catering, you know, somewhere down south, because he did work in the Northampton area before when he was in the hotel catering sort of line but, again, my, my knowledge is very, very sketchy. Simply because he didn’t tell me and I was too young to cotton on, you know, to what was happening. CB: And what age did he retire? GR: He retired at sixty-five CB: Right GR: But unfortunately, he died at seventy-three in 1978. CB: Right. GR: But I think- Looking back, I think the war took a lot out of him and it really knocked him for six, you know, as it did a lot of aircrew that survived, and I was never really close to my father. So, he didn’t confide in people much, he used to play his cards very close to his chest, you know, so- And that, that’s about all I can say, you know. CB: How much do you think your mother knew about what he’d been doing, in the war? GR: [Sighs] I don’t know what he told her. I, I should imagine she knew quite a bit. She knew- She must’ve realised what flying a bomber over Germany, you know, was all about and the risks involved. CB: Well, he was quite an old man as far as- In terms of air force ages ‘cause he was forty when he was shot down. GR: That’s right. CB: Next day. So- Do you know what the reaction of the crew was to the difference in age? GR: Well, I know the pilot- The pilot, Cliff Hart, was Australian, was in Royal Australian Air Force, and so was the- I think the wireless operator Angus- Trying to think of his name now. Angus McGrath, he was Australian, and they unfortunately both died when the aircraft was shot down. CB: How many survivors were there in the- GR: Pardon? CB: How many survivors were there from- GR: Five, there were five survivors. CB: Right. But they were, they were both killed those two? GR: They were both killed, they went down with the aircraft, but they never actually found the spot where they went down. CB: Ok, stop there. The early parts you spoke of then, your father had been on a charge for doing something with his motorbike, what was that? GR: Ah yeah, he, he was fined a pound for riding a motorcycle without lights on, and also, a short while afterwards he was fined three pounds for riding a motorcycle without a license [chuckles] so, he could be a bit of a bad boy at times. CB: This is in the early days of him being in the RAF? GR: That’s right, yeah. That was when he was quite young. CB: Yeah, where was that? GR: I believe, I think it was Biggleswade CB: Right GR: Mentioned Biggleswade in Bedfordshire, so- And I remember when he was in- He was based in Norfolk in the early part of the war, I think it was a place called Matlaske, Matlaske? But anyway, he was based in Norfolk and he was fined fifteen shillings for riding a bicycle [chuckles] without lights, so- He had his tanner[?] for breaking the road traffic laws. CB: Yeah GR: But, apart from that, I know very little about what- CB: Did your mother ever talk about- To you, about what your father did in the war? GR: No, never CB: Did you ever ask her? GR: No, I was too young at the time, remember I was born in- CB: I’m thinking later years? GR: Later years? No, no. No. He kept quiet, so I just didn’t ask, you know, it wasn’t a question of, ‘What did you do in the war Daddy?’, you know, it was, it was accepted that we don’t talk about it. CB: Yeah GR: And I think, one offshoot which I didn’t mention before was that my sister, went into the women’s air force for a short while, and I think that’s because my father was, was in the air force himself, I think that had a lot to do with her going in. CB: You’ve got quite an interesting bunch of pictures there, and cards. What are they? GR: These are all postcard size pictures which somehow my father had taken when he was a prisoner, or just after and they’re various pictures of the war from a German point of view, actual photographs I think taken, some of the Russian army, others of damage caused by the conflict, a couple of them are hand drawn coloured postcards which are obviously propaganda material but, I've no idea how he came to have them, no idea whatsoever, but they were in his [unclear] when he died, plus there was a Christmas dinner menu from 1941 at the RAF station Reykjavík in Iceland, which has been signed by quite a few people that he obviously knew when they were there, from various parts of the country. Also, another Christmas menu from RAF Bridlington, Christmas Day 1943 and a telegram, which my mother received from Elsham Wolds telling her that, and I quote, informing her that her husband, ‘Wilfred Dudley Rich is reported missing from operation on the night of the 23rd/24th of February 1945, letter follows immediately’, stop, ‘Any other information received will be communicated to you immediately’, stop, ‘Pending receipt of written notification from air ministry, no information should be given to the press’, and that was the telegram she received. Also, I have a ticket here issued by RAF personnel, third class return from Northampton to Stamford and Stamford back to Northampton, and that was dated the 7th of September 1943. CB: What was the significance of going to Stamford, do you know? GR: I haven’t the vaguest idea. Lincolnshire- CB: Yeah GR: I don’t know what was at Stamford CB: Yeah GR: He was stationed at Elsham Wolds and they used to go to Barnaby, Barnaby the Wald which is a station which is no longer there now, and also I have his national registration identity card, which shows his whereabouts, addresses- Various addresses he lived at, and stamps, the first one was issued ’45. This must’ve been after he came out of services. ‘Cause they’re stamped ’45 and ’46. CB: Ok GR: And the rest, the rest of his affects are on display in the memorial room at Elsham Wolds CB: Which is the squadron base? GR: That- Which is the old squadron base. CB: 103 Squadron GR: It’s on the corner of the old aerodrome CB: Is it, yeah. What have they got? An old Nissen hut? Or, what’s it in? GR: No, the- Anglian Water treatment works are there and they’ve allocated a room for the association where they can display all their memorabilia and- You know, information about people who served there and [unclear] very interesting. CB: What sort of stuff does it have in it? GR: It’s got countless stuff, old stuff from Lancaster bombers, it’s got the instrument panel from a Lancaster in there, got various parts of the mechanics on a Lancaster, various uniforms, records of people that served there, lots of memorabilia, you know, information about people who served there and died, you know, were killed on operations. It is very interesting, and right next door to it they’ve got a memorial guard to 103 Squadron and 576 Squadron who were both based there. CB: Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gerald Rich Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ARichGW180417 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:30:10 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Civilian Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Second generation Description An account of the resource Gerald’s father, Wilfred, joined the Royal Air Force in January 1920 and stayed until around 1927, training as an aircraft fitter. He re-joined in June 1940 at RAF Cardington. In 1944, upon completion of training, he went to No. 1 Air Gunnery School and, three months later, to No 26 Operational Training Unit working on Wellingtons and crewing up. From there they went to the Heavy Conversion Unit training on Lancasters before joining 103 Squadron on at RAF Elsham Wolds on 3 November 1944. Wilfred flew 19 operations. He was shot down in February 1945, aged 40, being one of the five survivors. He served out the rest of the war in a German prisoner of war camp and was repatriated around May 1945 and demobbed some months later. Gerald believes his father went back into the catering industry, retiring at the age of 65. He died aged 73 in 1978. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sue Smith Tilly Foster Maureen Clarke Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Lincolnshire Germany--Pforzheim Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1920 1927 1940-06 1941 1942 1943 1944-11-03 1945-02-23 1945-02-24 1945-05 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription 103 Squadron air gunner aircrew crewing up Lancaster prisoner of war RAF Cardington RAF Elsham Wolds shot down https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/882/11709/PHorshamES1602.jpg 67e67ad73fa2fc212dac0e588fd3a172 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/882/11709/ASymondsHorshamE170105.mp3 7d055b8f4144ed6db659e469c9e75ac0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Horsham, Eric Eric Symonds Horsham E S Horsham Description An account of the resource 14 items. An oral history interview with Eric Horsham (b. 1923), 9 photographs, and his memoirs. He flew operations as a flight engineer with 102 Squadron from RAF Pocklington. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Eric Horsham and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-01-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Horsham, ES Access Rights Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies. Permission granted for commercial projects Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 5th of January 2017 and I’m with Eric Horsham down in Warminster and he was a flight engineer. And he is going to talk about his experiences in life but particularly with the RAF. So, Eric what are you earliest recollections of life? ESH: Well, every year we went off to Devon for a holiday at relations because my people came from Plymouth and Devonport and this was held good right up until my teenage years. But early memories really, I suppose began at the age of about, serious memories, seven when we heard a very strange noise on one occasion and we all rushed out to see what it was. And do you know what? It was the R101 which was on its way to London and of course guided by the River Thames because that’s where we lived. In Plumstead. So it was logical. In fact the best view from Plumstead was the Ford Motor Works which had four big white chimneys and so that was a landmark. And following on from there it wasn’t until I was [pause] well I suppose fourteen really because that’s when I left school and they said, ‘Well, there’s a couple of jobs and one is — would you like to be a messenger in the Royal Ordnance factory?’ Which was right adjacent to Plumstead at Woolwich, you see and also the headquarters of the Royal Engineers. So that’s what I did for six months because it was destined that I should take the Railway Clerical Examination and join the rest of the family working on the railway. So that’s subsequent to that they sent me to train as a booking clerk. But I didn’t show up very brightly so they said, ‘No. We’ll send you to a goods depot.’ Which was rather like being banished, you know [laughs] because, can I be humorous at this point and say, well yes I was sent to a depot call Nine Hills which was in Vauxhall near Waterloo and on one side I had the Brand’s Essence and Pickle factory churning out pickle. And looking the other way we had horses because everything was delivered, delivered by horses, and drays at that. And on the other side we had the gaslight and coke company pushing out fumes so that was my early memory on the railway and then a friend of mine said [pause] well I told the friend of mine in the railway business that I was very unhappy there. So, indeed the friend said, ‘Well, we’ll try and rectify that,’ and apparently I didn’t shine as a booking clerk either. So they sent me to the estate office of the Southern Railway which was way out in the country at Chislehurst, but I digress because previous to — I mean we, talking about the year 1937. As you’ll appreciate if I was ’23 — born ‘23. ‘33, ‘37 that’s thirteen or fourteen years and 1939 came along. We can verify those dates and we had to join anything organised. All young people. So, but I think maybe I’m a bit previous to that because I went along to the Air Defence Cadet Corps. This would be somewhere about 1937 at least. So from there of course we went on to the Air Training Corps which was very much in evidence at Woolwich because we were, had the run of the Woolwich Polytechnic, and the chief there was indeed given the rank of wing commander in the Air Training Corps. Wing Commander Halliwell. So, that’s where I first got my, sort of my aircraft experience and of course it was a very good base for workshop practice. We all started off wanting to be flight — to be aircraft fitters. Fitters and turners. And the very basic things that we did were of course in connection with Tiger Moths where you really had the history of aircraft from very early days, and we had to learn all about turn buckles and things which kept the wings in place. But of course as time went by, here we are in ’39 and we were getting heavy bombers coming in, and if you’d, you had to decide, you know, really what you wanted to do because you were going to be called up for sure. And state a preference. So of course I did. And that was to be a flight engineer. Now, as an aside to this, engineers in the Air Force — flying, got twelve shillings a day. Now, you, you know seven twelves is eighty four. That’s four pound forty a week which is not to be, not to be sniffed at. But of course we also had to join something anyway. So, off I went to, to be called up but unfortunately there was a problem because I’d had a medical earlier for call up and the doctor discovered that one leg, ankle or calf, was slightly different to the other one. And of course yes it would be so because when I was born it was in a splint up until a year, eighteen months which straightened it out but it never did quite catch up with the other leg. Anyway, they said, ‘No. You’re grade three. We don’t want you.’ So off I went back to the estate office and soldiered on. Filing I think was our main job then because the railway had a vast estate. However, ok, come twelve months I was getting pretty fed up so I went up to the local recruiting office and said, ‘You know, I’m available. And I’m partly trained as an engineer. I want to join the Air Force,’ and they said, ‘Well that’s alright. You’re in the Air Training Corps. You should be alright.’ So they sent me off to Cardington and, for a medical. Went to Henlow actually. Adjacent. Just down the road from Cardington. Saw the top brass and he said, ‘Well, jump up and down there,’ and so I did. And he said, ‘There’s nothing wrong with you, off you go.’ So back to an interview at Cardington. The very, very modern method of identifying people. You had all these puzzles in a book, and you went through the book. A hundred puzzles and things like a bit of algebra, you know. And I knew a little bit. Anyway, I got the question right and I was the only one in that class who got it. So the squadron leader who was interviewing, and he was loaded with gongs, of course to a young man I couldn’t take my eyes of these gongs. Anyway, he put me through all the paces and he had a civilian officer too, with him, in the interview. And in his room he had every kind of aircraft and I was to — aircraft recognition. So I did very well at that because we were well trained in the Air Training Corps. So off I went then back to civilian life and then a little while later got called up for Aircrew Reception Centre at Lord’s. So we had a, we were very honoured because we had to be kitted out in the Long Room which was famous as you know. We had drill on the famous turf. Now, that lasted about three weeks by which time we were fully kitted up and said, ‘Right. Off to Torquay you go.’ We thought that was jolly good because Torquay was a lovely holiday centre wasn’t it? Anyway, we did, I did eight weeks there altogether. And we learned administration and the law of the RAF and the time came when they said, well, you know, off to the squadron — no. Off to the big training centre you go. And I remember I slept the night on Bristol Temple Meads Station because that was it. We were going to St Athan in Wales. And the train service being what it was we did arrive at St Athan with two kit bags by the time we got there. And humped them all the way up to the camp which we thought rather naughty. Anyway, we went through twenty six weeks, I think it was, of training throughout every facet of aircraft construction and the essential things that one would have needed to know. Like you had to be au fait with a very complicated system of petrol tanks. Now, each wing of a Halifax had six tanks. And this had to be in flying whittled down from, so that your main petrol was in the mid-section, in tanks one and three. Funny enough on the test training board they said, ‘No, you really ought to have another think about this. Go back and think for another week.’ So, then I passed out and they put a little white flash in my cap and they gave me papers for the Number 1652 Conversion Unit which was that Marston Moor. [Telephone ringing. Recording paused] CB: So we’re just re-starting now with St Athan and the rest of the things that you were doing in training there. ESH: Yes. I’ll go straight into leaving St Athan. CB: What else did you do in St Athan? Hydraulics. What else? ESH: Is that running? CB: Yes. ESH: Well, yes, you had your petrol system. You had the other power that was likely to be in aircraft which were accumulators. Now, not as you would think an electricity accumulator but this was liquid in a cylinder. Oil actually I think it was. And air was pumped in giving it a pressure and on selecting undercarriage down the accumulator would push it down. This is in the case of a Halifax which was either hydraulic or pneumatic. So the way to get services to operate was by his accumulator. But not only that of course because you did have [pause] now let me think. You had the port inner engine on a Halifax is the one that supplies power to your services and — CB: Electrical power. ESH: Yes. Some of it would have been electrical power. CB: But also hydraulic. ESH: And hydraulics had to be learned. Flaps were hydraulic. The other services control are foot and pedals by the pilot on the fin and rudder. And the elevators — well they would be hydraulic you see running a pipeline out. And flaps for instance. Fairly high pressure, well two and a half pounds I think were the standard pressure in the system but it was enough to push a big flap down against the airstream. And so electrics — you had to be au fait with the electrical services, and therefore you had to mug up on Ohm’s Law if you like in order to appreciate the power that you could get from electric motors. So, and then of course you had to know the different gauges of the stressed skin of the alclad which was a compound of the aluminium NG7. You see, the mind gets very hazy when it comes to the complete structure but you were able, by the end of six months, to walk through a mock-up of an aircraft with your eyes closed. You could have bandaged the flight engineer. He was the one who moved around and you were perfectly au fait with where the main spar came across so you could sort of jump over that. And of course the controls for your petrol were underneath the, what’s called the rest position which was a little sort of bunk for resting people. We didn’t go to sleep there actually but it was very useful. And then in the front of the aircraft of course you had the pilot with the wireless op immediately underneath him. And the navigator and the bombardier in the nose proper. So they, we were pretty well genned up by the time we left there. We could go anywhere blind folded within the air craft there and operate switches without thinking about it. So then they said, ‘Right. Here’s, here’s your ticket.’ You’re on your on your way,’ to a place called Pocklington — no. Sorry. Marston Moor. The sight of the famous battle actually was just down the road. And this was number 1652 Conversion Unit where all the crews got together as and made up as crews. Now, I hadn’t met our crew before then but we were very late. The mid-upper gunners and the flight engineers only met the crew, the other crew of four who’d come along from EFTS and their various ‘dromes where they had been instructed, to make up a crew. And it was strange because we assembled in the hall and the flight engineers and the gunners — mid-upper gunners, would be sitting in chairs and then in came the existing crews because they’d been flying Wellingtons which only required five people. And then — how do you find a pilot? They said, ‘Join up with somebody,’ so eventually, I think we were down to about two flight engineers and a chappie came along and said, ‘I need a flight engineer. You’ll be my flight engineer won’t you?’ And it turned out that he was a very very competent pilot. His name actually was, he was a Pilot Officer Francis then, who came from a village near where we are now called Stoke St Michael near Shepton Mallet. Anyway, he was quite stern. He always said that he’d seen our records but I don’t think he had. Anyway, he brought the crew along and said, ‘This is our flight engineer. Do you think he’ll be alright?’ So that was it. That was our crew. And so then we started training on the next day on circuits and bumps because this aircraft was totally new to our pilot. And while we’re on the subject of crew we had a very important chap in the crew who is of course the navigator. Now, we had actually in retrospect, having had thirty odd ops to prove himself, and we wouldn’t be here now if it hadn’t have been for Oscar Shirley, who was our navigator, because you could turn him upside down. You could have umpteen course changes. He knew exactly where he was. Because it could be very, I mean I heard of crews who had navigators that weren’t too good and that was curtains. However, we won’t dwell on that. But, and while we’re on crew our bombardier was fresh from the first few months of a teacher training course. He was called Johnny Morris but not to be confused with the comedian. And Alan Shepherd was our wireless operator. Now, Alan Shepherd came from Ringwood, off a smallholding. Wonderful chap really. Did a lot of good work after the war. Who else have we got to account for? Oh rear gunner. Yes. Rear gunner, another Londoner. I’m just desperately trying to remember his name. You wouldn’t believe it would you? [pause] I’ll remember it in a moment. We’ll come back to that. Now, who haven’t we accounted for? Mid-upper gunner. Jimmy Finney from Hull. Lovely lad who later got shot up on one operation and had to pack it in. CB: And your bomb aimer? ESH: Ron Alderton was the name of the rear gunner by the way. He is still with us as far as I know but when I phoned him the other day he said, ‘I’m losing my marbles. I can’t come and see you.’ So, there we were. Crew set up. And then of course we all had our bicycles with us. Off in the van and off we went to — I think we went by train from Green Hammerton to York. And then York out to Pocklington, and the station yard was just gravel in those days. And then of course we walked over to the ‘drome which was quite close. Each of us had two kit bags and a bicycle. But we knew we were going to Pocklington and it didn’t have a very savoury sort of record. In fact they said, ‘Now you’re here you’ll be lucky if you last three weeks.’ Which was a throwback from — 1943 was a desperate year and here we are in January or February was it of ’44, at the Conversion Unit. And Pocklington had, sorry not the Conversion Unit. Pocklington — the actual RAF station and there was definitely a pervading sort of sense that this was a bit dodgy, you know. However, we were led into operations in around about, just before D-Day. We’d done all our circuits and bumps and cross country’s and they let us down very gently on short trips to France. I mean the first trip we did was to a place called [unclear] which was a P-plane place. P planes were coming in thick and fast so Churchill had said to our boss Air Chief Marshall Harris, ‘Look get your lads on this. I want it stamped out.’ Because they knew the 6th of June was coming up. So we continued to do that until right through until well after D-Day. To various places which you wouldn’t be able to find on the map because they don’t give, you won’t find them as places like Foret de Dieppe. Which is unheard of, I mean, but there you are. And then we started ops didn’t we? And of course our accent was on night bombing. Can you imagine having a sheet of aluminium stood up against the wall and you gathered up in your hand and [pause] gravel? Now, you threw the gravel at the aluminium. Now that’s just what it’s like when you’re being shot. If you’re near a shot. Because all the shrapnel comes and hits the aircraft like that and that is getting just a bit too close for comfort. However, they were nights. Now, what you don’t, what you can’t see you don’t worry about do you? Even though it was seven or eight hours sometimes. Or five or six to the Ruhr. Because we were concentrating on the Ruhr. I mean Essen after we’d been there and some of the other lads had been there previously there wasn’t one brick standing on another. And that’s where Krupps the armament works were ruined, you know — finished. Because we were mainly at that time after [pause] I mean our targets were decided by the Ministry of Economic Warfare. And they said, ‘Right. Wipe out Germany’s oil and that will end the war.’ So that’s what we did. We went to all sorts of obscure places trying, in bulk, to wipe out an oil plant. Because, I mean, you’re looking at a complex in the middle of a small area of a village. Now it took a lot of aircraft to plaster it so we did a lot of this up and down the Ruhr. I mean there were so many places I won’t bore you with that. But that’s what we did. But also we went to one or two further places like Brunswick. Way across east to Berlin. And then Hanover, Soest, Osnabruck and they were very well defended. And of course the night fighters hadn’t quite been been nullified as they were a little later. So we had, I suppose a charmed existence. And one of the deadly things the Germans did was to position a gun at a fixed angle — called a shrage gun and it would come out and go straight for the port inner. Once you got the port inner — well that’s where your services came from. And there’s no way really you could put a fire out. You’d try by diving [pause] but no really we had a charmed existence I suppose. And then D-Day came along and in preparation for that the squadron was busy but we didn’t actually get over Normandy until, I think it was July the 18th 1944 when it was, there were troop concentrations around Cannes. Now, if you remember Montgomery couldn’t shift them and everyone was looking to him and saying, you know, ‘You’re going to be a failure aren’t you? You can’t. You’re army can’t do it.’ So they whistled up the Air Force east of Cannes where Tigers tanks had dug in in expectation of a bombing raid. and of course we were there 5 o’clock in the morning and it soon became obscured by dust and smoke. And really it was pretty terrible for the Germans I’m sure because they staggered out of their bunkers and that, having been bombed by I think it was a thousand aircraft. Not all at once but over a period of about half an hour. Your concentration was so great yes you could time them and of course this was, in effect, an army cooperation. We had to be very careful because the army had to lay down a yellow barrier of flares with a given margin which they decided was safe so — and I do remember on that occasion I think as we were coming — as we were going out on that raid as you’ll realise Cannes isn’t that far from England. They were coming back. So, quite amazing you know to see these aircraft coming back and you hadn’t got there. Now, this was daylight of course because they switched us from night after a time because we went on to daylight because of course if you can see something it should be, you should be more accurate. Now, we did go on right through the summer. We went to one P-plane place seven days running. Foret de Dieppe. If you can find it on the map. Because one operation was preceded by Mosquito. Now the Mosquito could — it was planned he would be on a fixed from England on the exact spot. So we were trundling away there getting towards — and the secret was when he dropped his bombs everyone else would do theirs. And of course unfortunately we got up near the target and one aircraft opened its bomb doors and dropped the bombs and of course everybody else did the same. So really that was — the idea was good but it didn’t work in practice. Whether the Air Ministry would like you to know that I don’t know. But yes, it was so. So, we were largely on P-plane bases but then we went on, as I say, to daylight. Oil installations. Because at that time it was really beginning to show that the Germans couldn’t really put enough in the field because they hadn’t got the petrol. So, mainly of course we were up at the Ruhr at places like Gelsenkirchen where there were oil installations and that more or less saw the summer out. But one operation did stand out for us and that was army cooperation with the Americans who were trying to push into the Ruhr and we hadn’t yet, they hadn’t yet done it but there were three towns. Julich, Duren and Eschweiler, and I think they are adjacent to the [pause] now what was the name of the forest? CB: Ardennes. ESH: The Ardennes, yes. Indeed. The Ardennes and these Germans had all their batteries concentrated in that area and they could dig in these Tiger tanks and they were very difficult. I mean they were very difficult to move. And the crews also were dug in and ready to come into action as soon as the raid had passed over. Anyway, we went through the target and on our way out and we must have wandered. At that time of course to nullify guns you dropped out metallic strip, Window, which really foxed the German radar. And they were pretty good on this radar. And we did wander around to one side on the way out. Out of radar — out of the Window cover and you could see. I was lucky I had a little dome and I could look out as a flight engineer to the rear and you could see these black dots coming up, but you didn’t know whether that one was going to follow that one but it did. And there was an almighty bang and so skipper Francis knew what that was so immediately put it into a dive. Now we were about fifteen thousand feet I think and we ended up diving and ended up at eight thousand feet hoping that the Germans wouldn’t be able to follow us down but the place was full of smoke and cordite. The smell of cordite. If you’ve opened up a firework or let it off you’ll smell cordite and that’s what, that’s what was filling up the aircraft. So you couldn’t communicate. Everyone had gone deaf so you had to wait for your hearing to come back. But being a flight engineer I was able to walk around because we were at level flight by that time. Previous to that we’d been pinned in our stations. The G-effect being such. And so the first thing I saw — the aircraft looked like a pepper pot on one side, the starboard side, and daylight was streaming out. No flaps. And unfortunately Jim Finney in the mid-upper turret was pointing to his leg and the shrapnel had gone through at the thigh which rendered him, his control of his foot etcetera to be nullified. So wireless op and bombardier got him out of the turret and laid him down in the fuselage, bandaged him up and they cut his trousers first in order to find out where the where he’s bleeding. And they did a good job on him because you know if a chap’s losing blood he’s losing life blood. So, anyway, the skipper said to navigator, ‘Give me a course for home.’ He gave him a course irrespective of what we were flying over and he pointed the nose in the right direction and off we went and we were soon back. I suppose at — oh yes it was awkward because there was a mist coming up and a fog but we were pointed towards Orfordness and the aerodrome there which had FIDO. Fog Dispersal [pause] Fog Incandescent Dispersal Organisation. So we were able to fly around once firing off all the red flares that we had so they should know down below that we hadn’t got radio, we hadn’t got brakes. But it’s a long runway and it was called [pause] There were two — one was at Carnaby further up the coast. This was Woodbridge. Straight in off the sea straight on the ‘drome. So it was getting pretty misty and it was closing in. November is a bad month isn’t it? Anyway, we got down didn’t we? And we managed to take up the full length of the runway, ended up on the grass at the end. But nevertheless we were off out of trouble. And along came, well they knew full well that this aircraft was damaged. Couldn’t talk to us. So they sent out the wagon and dear Jim was soon in hospital. And we, along with a couple, quite a few dozen others descended on the cookhouse for a supper, you know. Which we did eventually get because they didn’t expected all these people to come in 5 o’clock in the afternoon. And so what do you do? We’re down at Orfordness there in the east coast of Essex. They gave us tickets back to London and then back to York which was an excuse for everybody to spend the night in London. But I was lucky because I could get an electric train just down to Woolwich as it were and back home. We never got pulled up. None of us had hats. Well, I think, I think the skipper did because he was very particular about carrying his nice peak cap, you know. However — yeah, so we, but that’s only one of about six different aircraft that we had on the tour. Some of the numbers are in the logbook. But where we had different problems — for instance on one occasion we had a seagull in the engine nacelle which put that out of action. So of course you didn’t use that aeroplane the next day. We had so many we could have a new one every day if necessary. As I say, we had about seven. We got the undercart. That went down alright otherwise we wouldn’t be here would we? But it could be things like that which would be, could be very dodgy. And we eventually finished our tour on oil installations. Let’s see [pause] towards the end. Towards the end. Towards the [pause] October. October. Through Christmas. Probably about January or February of ‘45 and that was the end of our tour. And we had done twenty daylights and about thirteen night trips which clocked up something like four hundred, five hundred hours flying. Full stop. CB: We’ll stop there for a — [recording paused] CB: So we’re just, we’re just doing a recap now which is on the damage on the aircraft. ESH: Yes. CB: So starting at the point of the big explosion. Then what happened and what was the effect? ESH: Well I hope I can remember. CB: That’s alright. [pause] ESH: Well we left the target area and unfortunately we may have erred to one side of the Window cover which of course blocks out their radar and nullifies their accuracy. But nevertheless they caught us up and in a flash there was an almighty bang and our hearing disappeared straight away and the skipper put it into a dive, And down we went. Down. Down. Down. Something like eight thousand feet I suppose before we levelled out and that was a relief but we were then, I was then able, as a flight engineer to move around and observe any damage and by jingo there was. Looking out the port side — the starboard side the flaps had disappeared. One important, very important thing. The whole side of the aircraft was peppered and daylight was, it was more or less a window. And our mid-upper gunner, now our hearing had come back and our visibility was quite goon— pointed to his leg and indeed he had caught, been caught by shrapnel right through his thigh from his turret. So that very shortly after our wireless operator and our bombardier came out and got him out of the turret and cut his trouser and stopped the flow of his blood. And we realised it was very urgent to get back to England because, fortunately our four engines are still turning over in spite of losing some major control of the aircraft, so on arriving at Woodbridge which was a mighty long ‘drome a mighty long runway and very wide too we had to circle. We had to tell the ground what was happening. And so there we were flying, running off red verey lights in case there were other aircraft in the circuit, but there was no issue. We did one. One circuit around the flying control and straight in to the funnel of the runway. Without — without radio we felt pretty helpless. The fog had closed in on the aerodrome now at this time but he was an A1 skipper and as I say one of his things that he was so good at was flying blind, he could fly in any condition. He got us down and we got Jimmy into the transport and away to the nearest hospital. [pause] CB: Was there any fire on the aircraft? ESH: No. Fortunately we didn’t have fire. Which is a pretty terrible thing. CB: So you had no, no hydraulics and you had no electrics. How did you get the undercarriage down? ESH: Well, it’s heavy, it’s a very heavy undercarriage. Massive wheels on a Halifax. Six foot high nearly. If I remember rightly the hydraulics had gone which serves flaps, bomb doors, undercarriage and, actually what happened is [pause] there is another precaution because if your — [pause] CB: You could wind it down could you? ESH: No. There was a precaution against it falling down which is called withdrawing the uplocks. This is a job that the flight engineer had to do. He would go down to what the rest position which is where our mid-upper gunner was. And there are two D rings. One each side protruding from the fuselage. The cable obviously comes through the back of the wing because the undercarriage would have been beneath the wing, and it was a simple system. Ok. You pulled the D ring which pulled a cable which released a sort of a gate bolt. This bolt, if you can imagine a gate bolt, held up the undercarriage. So the undercarriage would automatically fall down. So that’s obviously what the, as flight engineer, I did on approaching. We were fortunate in as much as that was all intact. I mean if the aircraft had lost its undercarriage earlier you not only would it have caused a lot more loss of fuel flying with an undercarriage down, total drag. But in this case no. The uplocks worked. Irrespective of any hydraulic system. And of course your warning lights came on here and there. CB: Ok. ESH: We covered that have we? CB: You have. Yeah. ESH: So therefore we got — we were on the ground, Jimmy’s off to hospital and we are left to go and find our supper again with another hundred bods as we used to call ourselves. The next morning we were given a pass to go back to Pocklington via London so everyone had a night in London if they couldn’t get home. We all seemed to arrive the next morning for the 10 o’clock up to King’s Cross, up to York and that was the end of that sticky situation. CB: When you had a night in London where did you stay? ESH: Well I was able to go back. Once we got to London I was able to go back to Plumstead to my folks, and one or two of the other crew had friends that they could call on. Or relations. In fact Skipper Francis had some relations down in Slough way. Now, Ron Alderton, the rear gunner, had Canadian friends temporary and he did a night of the rounds of whatever pubs he could find and night clubs. He had quite a roaring time. I mean we didn’t need to get a train before 11 o’clock from Kings Cross to get back to York. So, on the train back we were, you know, reminiscing. And I always remember I’d tried to write out something for the, for the skipper at the time when all our hearing had gone and it was an absolute shambles. Unfortunately, you couldn’t hear anything and I found I couldn’t even spell the word fuselage. What I should have done was “Jim hit.” Two words would have conveyed that but instead of that — in the event you do not act logically and you would find that you had difficulty in getting to grips with language. You could move about and you knew exactly what you should do but you couldn’t think it through. But we were all in the same boat weren’t we? We all lost our hearing for quite a time. CB: So you — ESH: But we got back. That was the thing. CB: You experienced the initial shock. When did the secondary shock hit you and what was that like? ESH: Well, we had a night’s sleep, as you will appreciate, in London and I suppose we were rehearsing the events in the train for five hours. But we well appreciated that we were very lucky. But I don’t think at that time that that sort of event had too much effect on a crew. We were all together weren’t we? Jimmy was unfortunate but he wasn’t killed. That would have been a terrible disaster. So therefore I think we’d already been used to five years of war. I mean I’m talking about ’39 onwards, you’ve already had four years and you became inured to stress, in effect. So although we went back over the ground again but we were as a crew, we were complete. We were very lucky. CB: How long before jimmy rejoined you? ESH: Jimmy, unfortunately was off to hospital in Oswestry and he was ruled out forever more as a flyer and we received then a young gentleman from Scotland called Onderson. He was very broad and I think mostly we didn’t call him Ian, I think we just called him Jock and he was quite happy with that. And he finished up something like five or six operations with us. He became one of us obviously. [pause] CB: Now, you were saying that you did thirty. In your tour there were thirty ops, twenty of them were daylight. How many of those were to do with the V weapons and what happened? ESH: Well, as we said the V weapons and the P-planes. The V weapon was of course outside our control. It’s a rocket and you don’t hear it coming, you don’t know it’s left the ground even. And if you were anywhere near it then it could destroy half a dozen houses at one time. So we were mainly concentrating on P plane sites because you could flatten them. Until they put them on lorries and then of course you couldn’t find them. So, yes. CB: So you were, you were in daylight but how easy or difficult was it to find the V1 initially and then V2 sites? ESH: Well, I don’t think that we could ever find — the V1 for instance was secreted in the middle of a forest and certainly fighters could eventually have a go because they could see them and once we’d identified, or the Air Ministry had identified the location they knew what they were looking for on lorries. They would shoot them up but of course V2 was purely a mobile rocket. But once it was off it was off and it would perform a perambular and no one knew it had gone and no one knew it was coming. And there was just a terrible explosion and five houses could be — disappear. CB: But the V1 sites, as you said, in forests — how effective would you say your endeavours were in dealing with those? ESH: Well you want the truth. A question like where would you find the P- plane sites in a forest? All we had to go on really was what came back from our agents by wireless. That there was this activity in a certain place which the Air Ministry would identify, or the sight would be identified and it would be marked on our maps, as I say, as a very obscure village in Pas-de-Calais. The only thing we could do was mass bombing. In fact I don’t remember a site which wasn’t bombed on each occasion with less than three hundred aircraft. So that you hoped that within that aiming point you would destroy it. And I think we did a lot but not all. CB: Saturation bombing. ESH: Yes. That was the idea. Saturation bombing [pause] Stop. CB: Ok. [recording paused] CB: Now, some of your endeavours at bombing these V1 sites perhaps were more effective than others. Was there one site you went to several times? ESH: What? A V1? CB: Yeah. In Dieppe. ESH: Yeah. Foret de Dieppe. Did I not mention earlier? CB: No. So, just, just cover that can you? The fact you went several times. ESH: Oh yes indeed. CB: Why did you go to that several times? ESH: Yes. In order to mitigate this nuisance of the V2, V1s of which many thousands were being aimed at England at the time on a fixed track. One morning, in fact five or six mornings continuously we searched out a fixed ramp in a forest called Foret de Nieppe. Which of course is in the Pas-de-Calais, if you can find it. And it took thousands of tonnes, must have done, to obliterate that site. But it was, it wasn’t able to fire off these V1s in rapid succession because, you know the Germans were very thorough and got it to a high state of proficiency but we did concentrate for many weeks and months on finishing off these P-planes because it was aimed at civilian population. CB: How many times did you actually see V1s flying towards Britain on your way to the target? ESH: Well fighter pilots did of course but not, not us. CB: You were too high up, were you, to see them? ESH: Yes. I mean they didn’t, they came in at about two thousand feet so I can’t say I saw one. But I saw the damage and I experienced a V2 standing on Albany Park Station which was on the, what’s called the Dartford loop line. Bexley Heath, Barnehurst and down there. And I was standing on the station and this thing dropped a quarter of a mile away and I had to ask the station staff what that was. I mean, you know, I didn’t see it. If I’d have gone along I’d have seen a row of houses demolished but that. No. CB: And what was their reaction to your question? ESH: Who? CB: The railway people. ESH: Well he sort of said, ‘Where have you been?’ Because it was — this is not live is it? Well he wondered where I’d been not to know that London was being plastered with P-planes bombs. That sounded by the way like a common 6oo cc motorcycle engine. CB: And you weren’t able to tell them what you were doing to counter this. You weren’t able to explain what you were doing, to the people in London. ESH: No. Well they could see — CB: Bombing. ESH: They could see I was in uniform. CB: Yes. ESH: But they were so busy with their ordinary lives that I was just one of two million servicemen. It didn’t rate more highly than that. CB: Right. Ok. ESH: Pause? CB: Yeah. [recording paused] CB: So what other events were noteworthy. ESH: Ah well, now what comes to mind straightaway is on the way in to a target to see an actual aircraft hit. And you must remember this has got a full bomb load of what ten [pause] what had we got — five twenty thousand pounds of TNT going up as well as the fire bombs, and it’s the most horrifying experience. But I do remember that occasion when — and the skipper was quick to point out that the Germans did send up what they called Scarecrows. But I’m sure this would be more than that because the whole sky around that aircraft was just bits, black bits in the sky. Now, you see a Scarecrow couldn’t put up that much material could it? I don’t think so. I think this was a very salutary experience but you didn’t dwell on it because, well, you know, it could be happening at night time and you never knew anything about it. CB: So we’re talking about night time now are we? ESH: No. Night time, other than someone standing and throwing grit at your aeroplane that was the only indication you would have had that there were some shells very close by, but you see what the eye doesn’t see the heart doesn’t grieve. Although you might feel the effect of it, especially if you’d another aircraft in front of you you’d be perhaps very difficult as a pilot to maintain your position because you’re right in his slipstream. And there’s a slipstream of four engines just in front of you. I mean there were so many aircraft in the sky that it’s a wonder and in fact we lost a lot of aircraft because of collision. Indeed we did if the truth is known. No, there’s a bit of variation. We also had some trips with mine laying. Now, what happens? Mine laying. Well we had a chap from the navy came up and showed us exactly what’s going to happen because these things are quite weighty. I think they weighed about a matter of hundred weights and I think the maximum we could carry would be two. But there would be a whole squadron perhaps, or a lot of aircraft from other stations, all on the same business, and so off we went out across the North Sea and in to the Baltic. We had to pass over an island called Bornholm. Now, how far it is into the Baltic I don’t know, not very far perhaps because we were after this shipping route between Swedish oil coming down to feed the German factories. But I do remember dear old Bornholm put up some ack-ack you know [laughs] as though they could catch us with it. One little gun you know. It was a bit of humour in a not too humorous event. But that made a change from flying over the Ruhr because actually the first time I saw the Ruhr at night, well you’d never believe it. We came into the south of Ruhr and there was a bank of searchlights for the next fifty miles. Up and curving around. And, you know, when the chaps had said you’ve got to avoid searchlights I can understand because once you get pinned or — [Mobile ring tone. Recording paused] CB: So we’re talking about in the Ruhr and the way they would have, the place was defended. ESH: Yes. Right. CB: And how they were able, in the dark to track where people were going. ESH: Well if I describe the scene. CB: Yeah. ESH: The first time you saw these early night trips that we did it took a bit of getting used to. And the first time I saw searchlights. Now, if you can imagine Kiel up in North Germany. Right around and come down through the rest of the Ruhr down to [pause] what town would be the south of the Ruhr? CB: Stuttgart. Stuttgart. ESH: Stuttgart. And Nuremberg. That is something like fifty miles isn’t it? Or more. CB: More. ESH: A solid ring of thousands of searchlights, it was like day. And it curved actually from the north right down. Facing England to the south. Stuttgart. Nuremberg. And even further south than that I think. A solid — banks of hundreds. And if, if you got near one they had one particular, in groups, they had one particular searchlight which was extra powerful and it used to show up blue, and, well we did get coned on one occasion. We were lucky because very often you couldn’t get out of it. There were so many and they could sort of follow your track and there was this master searchlight and everybody else was following. And what we did, we managed to get out by just diving and weaving. And I suppose we lost a few hundred feet and you had to make that up because you had a flight plan. You know, you didn’t depart from that flight plan. You just didn’t go off on your own doing your own thing. That was certain, certain tragedy that would be because you had whole squadrons of night fighters still and they were still able to fly. Although, they couldn’t do the training because they hadn’t got the petrol, so the petrol bombardment was beginning to show. I mean we’re talking now about mid-’45 aren’t we, you see? Sorry — CB: ’44. ESH: ’44. From ’44 to the end of ’44 it was gradually having an effect on German oil production, synthetic oil. And of course being as they were small patches they were very difficult to find. I mean, you might have one oil refinery and its ten miles from the nearest town. Now, you’ve got to be very accurate to get anything delivered to that site and — if you could get there, you know. But of course the German fighter production was going down so fast that I think we had a charmed existence from nineteen — from June ‘45 really to, or September ’45 to the end of [pause] ’44 to the end of ’44. I mean we were very busy D-Day time for the next three months, and then it sort of slackened off because you were limited to what you could do in the way of army cooperation. In fact the army didn’t want the Air Force to take full credit for having liberated Germany. So [pause] but raids were still being, operations were still being carried out by the squadron right through to mid-‘45. Or ‘til D-Day. CB: You talked about the intensity of searchlights. What effect did that have on the air bomber’s ability to identify the target? ESH: Well, searchlights. Yes. But you had visual and of course later in — from D-Day onwards the squadrons were equipped with H2S which was radar with the ability to show up features on the ground. To be able to distinguish between water and land. Now, if an oil refinery was situated just off a river that aiming point would certainly be able to be calculated and it left an aiming point for a whole squadron of aircraft marked by Pathfinders. You didn’t go on your own. It was, at that time, after D-Day, everything was Pathfinders and they would blaze the trail and you’d have a Master Bomber and he would come through your RT. I remember one occasion when the Main Force was given a name so it would come out rather like this. ‘Widow 1, Widow 1 to Main Force. Bomb the red TIs.’ And then a minute later, ‘Widow 1 to Main Force. Bomb the yellow TIs.’ Because of bomb creep. CB: TI being target indicator. ESH: Target indicator. Yes. So you had a whole spectrum of colours. Red. Green. Blue. Yellow. And they could be changed rapidly by RT from the master bomber to the main force so that he kept, you kept pace with bomb creep and you became more effective with that. In fact very effective in the end. I mean such people as Wing Commander Cheshire as he was then would be up the front there giving the, giving that RT direction. CB: Would you like to just explain what is bomb creep? Bomb creep. What is it? ESH: Bomb creep. Yes. What happens is that [pause] it creeps back rather than on to the target. How it happens — I suppose if you’ve got a conflagration then bombardiers could think that that was where you should be aiming. So a lot of aircraft, I mean, don’t forget there are five hundred aircraft on this job so that some of them would think that was the target. But, so the Master Bomber had to keep reminding people that it was creeping back and it shouldn’t do. He’s got to go on to his new target indicators. And he changed the colour of course. So you knew what to look for. Otherwise your bomb load was nullified. CB: Ok. ESH: Go on to [pause] CB: Yeah go on. So we’ll stop there for a mo. ESH: Yeah then — [recording paused] ESH: I said Cora’s mum and dad yes. CB: Yes. On a slightly lighter note clearly as a crew you had your, and personally you had your social side. So what did the crew do, and what did you do individually? ESH: Well, that’s what I did individually and didn’t take any part in any social activities with the crew. CB: Right. So what did you do? ESH: I didn’t go drinking, you see. CB: No. So what did you do? ESH: I spent most of my time in York. CB: Right. And what did you find there? ESH: This family. CB: Right. ESH: And I was made like a son. CB: Were you? ESH: So I didn’t — we all went as a family to the theatre one evening and we saw the famous lady who had just started acting. She was in, “Last of the Summer Wine.” Very famous. You chaps have got memories haven’t you? CB: We’ll latch on to her later. So, but but the family — ESH: I’d better jot her name down while I think of it. CB: Ok. Yeah. So you — ESH: Thora Hird. CB: Yeah. So the family was in York. What did the father do? ESH: He was invalided. He couldn’t do anything because of the start of silicosis. CB: Right, but what was his trade? ESH: That was — he was in charge. He had his own firm of plasterers. CB: Right. ESH: So I’ll go on to that. I’ll just make a quick note, Thora Hird. CB: And they had a son and a daughter. ESH: Yeah. Yeah. Famous restaurant in the middle of York. Still there. CB: But you’d go to that as well would you? ESH: Yeah. I’ve got it. Yes. CB: Go on. ESH: Ok. CB: Yeah. ESH: Live? CB: Yes. ESH: We were talking about the social life on the squadron. Well, as I say I think I was eighteen when I, nineteen when I arrived there, and went out into York and I met this delightful young lady called Cora. And she said, ‘Well, if I’m going out with you my people want to see you.’ So I went along and they became my mum and dad for that time. And her dad was a, had a plastering firm but he was suffering then from, I think, the start of silicosis and he couldn’t work but nevertheless they went out of their way to look after me, and of course the extra attraction was of course la belle Cora. And at that time there was a show going in York and who should be a young actress was Thora Hird. But I don’t think she remembers that herself now, bless her. She’s passed on hasn’t she? But Mr Parker’s claim to fame as a plasterer was the ceilings, for instance, in Betty’s Bar. Now Betty’s Bar is very well known in York and it’s still there. And if you go down into the basement you will find a mirror which is now cut up into three parts. And pretty well every famous flyer has got his signature on the glass having done with a diamond ring. And they’re all there. I think you’ll find Group Captain Cheshire left his mark there. And quite a lot of others passed through but they’re all on this mirror. So that’s down in the basement of Betty’s Bar. It’s worth going down to see. There’s history galore down there. So they looked after me like a mother and father, not withstanding the fact they had a son in the Middle East. With the 8th Army I think it was. But of course being really a dangerous occupation I had no business stringing this girl along. I mean I was her first boyfriend and you know the effect that has on young ladies. So, the crew were very good. They didn’t question me as to where I was spending all this time you see. Which brings us to — CB: How you broke it off. ESH: How we —? CB: Broke it off. ESH: Oh yes. I mean, we used to have, our famous perambulation was around the wall of York. And, you know it took quite a time so, and broke her heart I’m sure, but it had to finish. It would had been too traumatic otherwise. And we were then left to finish our tour which, there again was mainly oil installations. But come September of ’44 the CO called us all into the briefing room and said, ‘Now we’re all going to France tomorrow. We are bringing petrol to the army.’ The army was fighting at Eindhoven and so they said, ‘You are going to be loaded up with petrol,’ which they did. Each aircraft. Two hundred and fifty, five gallon cans stacked along the fuselage and tied in so they didn’t bounce around. Off we went to a German field which they’d laid out what’s called Sommerfield tracking to stop an aircraft or aircraft and vehicles bogging down in a puddle. So that was rather jolly. I mean there we were — flew a hundred feet all the way. And really that’s one of the nicest things to do, you know. Flying low level where we’d see haystacks with pigs on top because Jerry had pulled the plug on the dyke. Very naughty of course but you know it really devastated thousands of acres. And we had to fly over that into Brussels. Well into an area of Brussels called Melsbroek which was just a grass field. And it was very enjoyable. We landed there and fresh air and went to the village and do you know what? There were grapes growing on the trees. Oh grapes. Well, I mean who wants to leave there? Anyway, this so happens, you know that we tried to get off the next day, I’m sure it was the next day. So soon you could be accused of organising this. But we oiled up the plugs trying to get out of a big puddle and there’s no way you’re going to get out of it because what the wheels do and they’re big, they just churn a great gap, pit in the soil. So therefore that was, we were stuck there until you get a fitter out with a set of plugs to put it right, and I think all four engines were oiled up. Anyway, that meant that we had three days in Brussels. So what did we do? The first day we piled into a local tram and went into Brussels where we stayed at the Gare de Nord Hotel. And I was the only one who had any money [laughs] you know, because they said now any money you’ve got to change it. You’ve got to, sorry we had to change it for the currency that was wartime currency. And so of course our money was soon gone staying at hotels. And we went in to one, oh yes we, I must tell you a little story here. We went in to one hotel and up to the second floor and it was a night club with an amphitheatre and a stage and events, you know. Acts taking place. But on the way up the staircase in a corner there were two six foot six American sergeants and they had a lovely carton of cigarettes, a big carton. And they were presumably flogging them off. I mean if they could get another carton like that they’d make a fortune because there were no cigarettes in Europe. In fact, people would give you their gold watch for a packet of cigarettes but that — now our rear gunner being a sort of international type said, ‘No,’ we must find, he’d come from Canada on, he was trained for something else in Canada because he talked about Montreal. And he said, ‘We must see an exhibition.’ And actually it wasn’t what I fancied but anyway we didn’t get that far because there was no exhibition. So we met this old boy in the road and Ron says, ‘Exhibition?’ So, he didn’t speak French perfectly. The chap was quite happy. This old boy. ‘Come with me. Come with me.’ And off we went with this chap down the main thoroughfare and down some back entrances, back places, back roads, alleyways to a pub. And this pub was run by this aged lady who sat at the high stool and dished up what went, passed as beer. And there were us. We were all sitting around on stool, a continuous stool like in a queue. And I mean, you know, it was alright. A bit of light fare. And the skipper was there of course and he hadn’t taken his hat off that time. And in comes all th ese girls in bathing costumes. I mean, to eighteen year olds you know this is seventh heaven isn’t it? What’s next then? And they were sitting on our knees and some of them very shapely. And the skipper suddenly caught on, he said ‘Right. Here’s the gun. Out you lot.’ And we had to leave because it was a brothel wasn’t it? And he wasn’t, he wasn’t having his crew sullied by such goings on. So, that was, that was Brussels for me. CB: So you got two black eyes and you couldn’t hear anything either. ESH: [laughs] So. No. We had to make apologies to these young ladies and disappear. We would have liked to pass on perhaps a bar of chocolate. CB: Of course. ESH: But we didn’t go prepared. But it’s a pity. But Ron did — he went to a private family that night. I don’t know what the attraction was but anyway he did — no. Johnny Morris this is, ex schoolteacher. He obviously thought about it because he brought a bag of coffee back next time and made arrangements for it to be delivered to a particular curie. A priest at the local church who he had met somehow. But that’s the best we could do really. Normally you went in with your two hundred and fifty gallons. The army came up with a truck, unloaded [pause] and there we went off again. The next day with another load. So we were really kept busy bringing in something like two thousand gallons at a time for the army to use up at Eindhoven. Because they were six hundred miles from the port at that stage and just couldn’t keep going, you know. I thought I saw somebody moving out there but maybe I’m wrong. CB: So did you carry, did you then later deliver any other kind of goods or was it only petrol? ESH: Only petrol. But I believe later. Very soon. Our squadrons were engaged on dropping supplies to Amsterdam and it made a great impression on our Dutch friends. CB: That was food. Operation Manna. ESH: Yes. CB: Yes. ESH: We weren’t engaged on that but rather carried on with the last few trips into Europe. CB: So when you come to the end of your tour what happened then to the crew? ESH: Ah yes. Well, do you know on the aerodrome was an experimental department run by a squadron leader. And they, one of the problems with the Halifax was coring of the oil in the oil tank. Super cooling. And it was called coring. And every effort was being made, well funny enough in my tour I never came, never had the problem. I dare say we never flew in an icing. What you call an icing. CB: Weather condition. ESH: Yeah. You get icing conditions at certain heights and if you stayed in it it was very bad for the oil coolers but we managed to keep out of that. But a lot of experimental work was being done because a lot of the aircraft did — was affected. And so they, we worked for the experimental department there which was set up at Pocklington. Going on cross country’s with modified aircraft that in effect would fly through anything up to Scotland and back in the hope that we would be able to pinpoint the procedures to cure it. But unfortunately we had an aircraft, an aircraft engine go over speed for some reason so that rather folded up at that time. CB: Which kind of engine was that? ESH: Well, Halifax — a Bristol Hercules 100. That was the latest. But coring was a very difficult thing. So of course what was happening was that everyone was now asking us to be re-mustered. There was nothing for us to do except hang around. So — CB: Was there an option of going on another tour? ESH: Oh yes, that was always an option, yes indeed. But — and a lot of the chaps did but I think I was more anxious to go back to civilian life. But I was ‘Duration of Present Emergency.’ Or I was D of P E. CB: Yeah. ESH: And of course they were not giving out any commissions at that time. So there wouldn’t have been a lot of future in staying so I applied to be re-mustered. CB: And what happened? ESH: And then left Pocklington. CB: Ok. ESH: Being posted to whatever came up in the Air Ministry I suppose. And off we went then re-mustering at a famous station for the army in north Cornwall — north [pause] Catterick. Now, there was a little RAF station for re-mustering at Catterick in an ex-mine working. Anyway, my number came up eventually but in the meantime we were sent on indefinite leave. Now, I didn’t want to have to pay to go to the skipper’s wedding because train fare was quite expensive. But I gave his address on my 48. My seven day pass as it were. Or indefinite leave. The consequence of that will be explained a bit later. CB: Right. ESH: But from there I got a letter a little later being posted to the Isle of Man as an airfield controller. But it just so happened that my papers actually never got to my home. They got to the skipper’s address. Now, you can have a bit of a laugh if you’ve been in the service because this was six weeks later, or rather that was alright but it was the last seven days. I was absent without leave. But I turned up. I was on my way to the Isle of Man. Well, I got to the Isle of Man alright. Yes. And having got to the Isle of Man you got off at Douglas and, you know, looked at the local restaurant. Two eggs, steak and chips, that’s marvellous. Have some of that. So immediately dived in and had a good nosh as we used to say. And then you got a little local narrow gauge train up to the Isle of Man up to the north. Because I was going to be stationed at a little place called Jurby which was a good hopping off point for anybody going to or coming from Reykjavic. Which, I would then put three searchlights up to guide them in. But it was more disastrous from my point of view because what could the CO do? He has a chap seven days adrift. The first — I went to the guardroom and he said, ‘We’ve been looking for you. You’re seven days adrift.’ So, go up before the CO. Very nice chap. By the way first of all you have to be vetted by the station WO and he actually said, ‘Do you know I’m awfully sorry to have to do this but you’re up before the CO tomorrow.’ So, you march in, in the usual way with the, you know, left right left right left. Turn right. ‘So young man. What do you want to do? A court martial or do you want my punishment?’ ‘Well your punishment sir. Thank you.’ ‘Right. Seven days loss of pay.’ And do you know what? You can imagine the scene can’t you? Pay parade. And you announce yourself before the cashier’s table, ‘1869854 Horsham. Sir.’ And he would say, ‘Three and sixpence.’ This went on for weeks at three and six pence a week it takes quite a time to get to four pounds forty. Seven days pay you see. You can clue that if you like but its [pause] but indeed I think because we had a chap at High Wycombe and he was called Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Harris and of course they did think twice before they shoved the book at one of Bomber Harris’s boys. And I think I was saved by that because it’s a heinous crime in the air force to be AWOL anywhere. Anyway, we carry on from there because I enjoyed the time on the Isle of Man. Being in charge of the airfield. Not a lot went on but we did [pause] we were a home for stray aircraft and of course the station was very busy training the rest of The Empire Air Scheme for training navigators. And we would use, or they would use Ansons. So of course we had a squadron of Ansons to fulfil the contract. And of course my job, one of the jobs, mine and my crew — I had a crew by then of Scots lads that were setting up a parking area with glim lamps every day, because they were doing night flying, and these glim lights were fuelled by accumulators and shone a red light. And you had to put them in a certain order because then the aircraft on the way back knew where they were to park. And they used to get it in the neck if they ran over a glim lamp. Other than that when we wasn’t flying we were all in flying control and we used to do a shift where we had two and a half days off. They still do that in the police force apparently, here. Afternoon, next morning or night, off the next day and the next day and the following morning. So that enabled you to go and see the local sights. Peel Castle on the Isle of Man. And of course we did get busy aircraft and they would come in some awful times from Reykjavik and sometimes I was, what did they call it? Duty officer? Duty. Yeah. Duty officer. And I had to find them accommodation so I had to lay the law down. Pull rank on whoever was in charge of the blanket store so that these chaps had a night’s sleep and could get, we would — the cookhouse would provide a supper for them. That broke up your time. So, in effect, eventually they sent us back to the mainland. To top — I was stationed at Topcliffe which was an ex-Canadian station and underneath every table and ever chair was chewing gum [laughs] That’s how I remember the Canadians. But there was no flying going on which was a shame because we [pause] I was only thinking these chaps had applied for discharge and therefore I was in charge of an airfield with no aircraft. We kept the grass nice and tidy. But as I say we could go into, no, we couldn’t go in to Topcliffe for two eggs, steak and chips. It was unheard of. But what you could do is you could go to a local village called Topwith . Now, there are two brewers in Tadcaster. One is Sam Smith and one is John Smith. Now, you’ll know John Smith because his beer is everywhere but what we ought to have down here is Sam Smith’s which was thick and black. And it was as black as your coat. Black as night and it was the next best thing today to Mackesons. But you could get quite squeamish, not squeamish — quite drunk on it. So then you met up with a lot of other interesting aircrew and you absorbed their experiences, and then gradually, one by one, they disappeared. As I did one day. On the 2nd of January 1947, in the bleak midwinter. It was very bleak down south anyway and there had been a lot of snow around. One interesting side now, talking about cold. We were very cold in Pocklington so we could burn, burn bicycle tyres in the hut. But old Jim said, ‘Do you know what,’ Jim Finney that was then [pause] now wait a minute I’m wrong. Jim has already had that shrapnel in his leg. But anyway, there was another member in the crew. It must have been Alan Shepherd, the wireless op. He said, ‘I know. There’s a bottle of petrol over there.’ And somewhere someone had left a bottle of petrol. And it was a hundred octane. So he said, ‘Stick it in the stove to get it nice and warm.’ And it did. It blew the whole thing apart [laughs] Which wasn’t very clever was it? Anyway, we’ve left. We’re at Topcliffe aren’t we? And then, sooner or later, ok the 7th of January or thereabouts I found myself out on my ear having been discharged at, somewhere near Preston. And we asked for a taxi and do you know that’s the only time in my life so far that I ever have driven in a Rolls Royce. There was a very famous place near Preston. If it wasn’t Preston it was Southport where there was a big demob place. Anyway, that’s where we ended up, in a taxi going to Preston Station. And home on indefinite leave still. Well, no a fortnight wasn’t it then? Fourteen days and that was it finished. Now, the thing is then going back to the old firm. Now, I found myself in the railway estate office before long but they didn’t really want me I don’t think. They said, ‘You can go up to Victoria Station and go to the archives.’ Temporarily. So that was a fill-in job. Going back through papers going back to 1900 where people had to pay for a sort of fly privilege to bring a pony and trap on to the station property and they had to enter into an agreement. Time goes by awfully quickly doesn’t it when you’re demobbed? So I stuck with the estates office for [pause] until 1957. And I didn’t seem to be going anywhere much so I went out into the big bad commercial world. And went to a builder’s merchants called Roberts Adlard who were quite famous in the southern counties. Their headquarters were Southampton. I had this friend of mine who was a rep and that’s how I got there. But, and mind you I’d left London so it was a big change to go to work in Rochester Cathedral, Rochester, the ancient town on the Medway. Rochester Cathedral. Yes. And this builder’s merchants wasn’t going anywhere so Horsham said to himself, ‘Look. Hadn’t you better find a job with a pension?’ So I had experience in the estate office which was very similar to the housing department of Rochester City Council. And applied and got the job as a rent collector of all things. Going around collecting. They had five thousand houses all broken up in to thirty different schemes or so. So that enabled a transition from that to a more permanent sphere. And of course the only way you can get up the scale in local government is either by passing a lot of examinations or becoming a professional man, like, I don’t know, an accountant which is a good solid five years work. But no there we were at Rochester with several other ex-service people especially from the navy, being next to Chatham. And so we said, you know, ‘What about a rise?’ They said, ‘Oh no. No. No. We can’t give you that but if you take a certain examination there will be money in it for you.’ So the one I took was the simple one. It was the clerical division of local government. That is talking about local and central government. Writing an essay etcetera. And after six months we took the exam and we all passed. So we thought go and see the governor again now. A different kind of governor. And for passing the examination I think — I was paid five ninety in those days. So he said, ‘Yes. Well, you can go up to five ninety five.’ A five pound a year increase. So we’ve got to do better than this. So you had lists of jobs you see, circulated. And the next port of call was Maidstone Borough Council as a senior rentable assistant in charge of five rent collectors and proving the books every weekend. Now Rochester City was a purely written system. Now I got to Maidstone and it was all done by a machine called a Powers - Samas punch card accounting. And a dreadful business because my collectors used to go out with a run off. The rent for various properties. And they would put X Y Z here and they wouldn’t put anything on their sheet. So, immediately you were what –? Two pound fifty out. I used to be there at half past nine, 10 o’clock at night on a Friday balancing the books because you had, in effect, over thirty different schemes so you had to sit down and balance these schemes to find out where the error was. Which was good training wasn’t it? CB: Amazing. Yes. ESH: I remember the deputy who we worked under. You never saw the treasurer. He was the high and mighty. The holy of holies. But I saw the treasurer on one occasion. He said, ‘Horsham,’ he said, ‘How is it that you spent all this overtime?’ Four hours on a Friday night, you know. I said, ‘Well you know. The chaps put one thing on the sheet and then put another in the book.’ He said, ‘Horsham you really should consider the propriety of asking for overtime.’ It’s not much of a thing to a chap who’s just put four hours extra sweating his guts out. Anyway, that’s another aside isn’t it? Next thing is of course to get promotion isn’t it? And where did I go from there? Yes. I applied for a job in the County Council’s office, in the planning department. Which is where I ended up in 1978. Yeah. 1978. And then took a sort of early retirement. CB: How old? How old were you when you took early retirement? ESH: In ‘78. I was born in 1923. CB: Oh right. ESH: ’23. CB: Fifty five. ESH: Just short of sixty. Oh there’s a bit more to come isn’t there? CB: Go on then. ESH: Yeah. Well then [pause] I go back, to retrack a little bit. Going back to my days at Maidstone Borough. Wasn’t getting much anywhere and a friend of mine, who lived adjacent to us said, ‘Why don’t you come into the poultry business with me?’ He said, ‘We could then step the production.’ Because he was, he was managing single handed two thousand layers. So we promptly put some new housing up and I put all my wealth into it and we ended up with eight thousand head of poultry. Not quite as big as JB Eastwood who came along and said, ‘Look you chaps. I don’t care, I’ve got millions of birds. And I don’t care if I only get a farthing a head. I shall still make a profit.’ Which was quite true but it was disastrous for us because we couldn’t compete with that although we did very well. I mean we had a neighbour a few miles away and he was able to keep five thousand which was less than we had. And he could work in the mornings and take all the afternoons off and play golf. That’s what he did. We thought that’s a good idea. But we were saddled with our eight thousand and with fowl pest in the offing if we didn’t look after it then we’d be sunk. Nobody else was going to look after it. So you put in a fairly, a fairly full day. Eight till five minimum. But it was very good experience because it sort of taught me that come what may I could always get a job because you’ve got some skills. Especially you’d be very valuable to a poultry farmer if you could go in and say, ‘I can go in and look after ten thousand.’ He’d say, ‘Well, you know, I’m like Mr JB Eastwood. I’ve got millions.’ But nevertheless it was the same principal. So we didn’t make a fortune but we didn’t lose our shirt. I say we being collective. And then what did I do next? Well, I went back to the old firm didn’t I? Back to local government. Into the planning department this time, of the County Council. And my draughtsmanship experience came in very handy because we dealt with maps all day long. And so in 1974 I got the most marvellous job because the ministries were all on to local governments and County Councils to find out how many, what land have you got. You don’t even know what you’ve got to build houses on. And he said, ‘Well Horsham. The job’s yours. And we will depict it on a twenty five hundred scale ordnance survey sheets,’ which was a bit better than what you get on your deeds, you know. You could even show a rainwater pipe on a twenty five hundred scale. And Kent had forty seven, forty eight District Councils which I had to visit one after the other because if you didn’t carry the local authority with you you’d be sunk. They hated County Council. And they hated them because they put extra on their rates didn’t they? So that was a very enjoyable job. So thirty nine, forty, forty one, forty two [pause] No. What do I say? 1974 — 5 — 6 — 7 - 8. It took four years to do but at the end of the time we could show in the planning department that we had fifty two thousand units of accommodation each housing three people. That was your capacity then but of course a lot of it was land that you wouldn’t want to release straight away. I mean there was something like fifteen, twenty acres at Folkestone on the golf course. I know because I lived looking over these lovely green fields but you couldn’t release it all at once but that was my job. CB: And you enjoyed it. ESH: I enjoyed that. I never — it’s a time when I was glad to go to work because it was so, it was my job and it was interesting and I had to fulfil this promise made to the governor that it would be finished in a certain time, you know. And then we, we retired officially. CB: When? ESH: In 1978. 1978. Yes. Yes and went off to live in Cornwall for seven years. Froze the pension which was the thing to do. So I froze mine for another eight years so I had to go and get a job to keep the wolf from the door. CB: Yeah. ESH: Which I did. In Cornwall. CB: Doing what? ESH: Well, I saw an advert in the paper to the effect that, “Handyman wanted,” and they gave the telephone number and it turned to be at what was the Ritz Cinema which is now a bingo hall. And the idea was that I was going to look after all the maintenance. Well, it was rather nice to do something different if you’ve done the other jobs for forty years, you know. So I did that for two or three years. The firm was called Mecca. You’ll know Mecca. They’ve got them everywhere of course. All your Ritz cinemas now have gone to bingo halls. I had to do many things. Change all the lights and there was a lot of lighting. Also you had an emergency system on what was it? Ten volt accumulators which you had to cut in if your mains failed you had your own generator as well. So you had that system and you had emergency lighting if all else failed. So I enjoyed that job really. CB: ‘Til when? ESH: About three years later. Right up until about 1981. In that time my and a crew of two or three lads we painted the whole of the inside of the cinema including the ceiling. Which pleased the powers that be because they said, ‘Well done Horsham. We will send you to Tenerife for a fortnight for you to recover,’ [laughs] So that was something that came out of the blue. Yes. You see every year they have competitions and whoever wins the competition probably wins a place to summer holiday. And this time it was Tenerife. So there were about a hundred of us went off to Tenerife. All found, you know. Very nice indeed. Now, you wouldn’t get bonuses like that in local government of course. Since then I haven’t done much of anything have I? CB: Throughout this time you were — ESH: Hmmn? CB: Throughout this time you were supported by this lovely lady. Ellen. ESH: Yes. CB: Where did you meet her? ESH: I met her the first day I went to work for the railway. She was going on the same train. There is a station south of London called New Cross. So that people from further down went up to New Cross on the train and then down to where the estate office was evacuated. It was at Chislehurst. Now there was a big house at Chislehurst called [Sidcup?]. And it was on an elevated position and there’s the railway coming up and there’s the tunnel. Elmstead Woods Tunnel. So that’s, I met her in the train and she was busy there with her needles and you know sticking her little fingers stuck up like that click click click. And so that’s how it started. Her and her friend actually. Her friend was called Winnie Glover and I suppose she thought, ‘Well, she’s done alright for herself,’ [laughs] And that’s, we’ve been going ever since. CB: When did you marry? ESH: 25th of May 1946. CB: And how many children have you had? ESH: Two girls. CB: So one’s called Gillian. ESH: One’s Gillian. Yes. CB: Yeah. ESH: And she trained and became a teacher and married a headmaster. And then she went, they went off to Hong Kong and taught for seven years. And now she lives in an old mill on the Vienne River just outside Chauvigny. Whereas Alison trained as a nurse here and she trained in Weymouth and Dorchester and then went on to the hospital at Warminster. Hence the reason that we’ve came somewhere near her in old age. CB: And she married a — ESH: She married a — CB: A doctor? ESH: A sergeant in the MOD police. A young sergeant who is now or rather shocking really some year ago he went in one Monday morning and they said, and he has twenty five years’ experience as a policeman and by that time as I say, he was a sergeant. No. She didn’t marry a sergeant then but he became a sergeant. And they said, ‘We don’t want you anymore.’ Made him redundant, just like that. So, but funnily enough he still works as an instructor for the police. Driver. He trains their drivers and that’s what he’s doing today. Alison’s just finishing up her last eighteen months as a nurse. CB: Well I think many many thanks, Eric. ESH: Pardon? CB: Many thanks, Eric for two and a half hours of interview. And absolutely fascinating. ESH: Well it’s one man’s experience isn’t it? Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eric Horsham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-01-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ASymondsHorshamE170105, PHorshamES1602 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 02:07:40 audio recording Description An account of the resource Eric Horsham was born in East London in 1923 and, after leaving school aged 14 he was a messenger at the Royal Ordnance factory before working for the railways. In 1937 he joined the Air Training Corps and learned about aircraft maintenance. On his first attempt to join the Royal Air Force he failed the medical but a year later was accepted for flight engineer training. Eric describes his basic training in London and Torbay then recollects his technical training at RAF St. Athan. He then went to 1652 Heavy Conversion Unit at RAF Marston Moor and joined his Halifax crew. In 1944 they were posted to 102 Squadron at RAF Pocklington where they were told that they would not last three weeks. Eric and his crew carried out a vast range of strategic bombings, including daylight operations on V-1 sites, night operations on the Ruhr and Essen, night and daylight operations to oil targets, minelaying in the Baltic. They also provided tactical support for Allied troops near Caen and in the Ardennes, where they were badly damaged by a fighter and the mid-upper gunner received serious injuries. After landing at RAF Woodbridge in fog using FIDO he was hospitalised and did not fly again. The crew also supplied petrol to troops in Belgium, enjoying the low-level flying on these trips. Eric describes the sound of shrapnel hitting the aircraft, recalls a bomber exploding in flight, but dismisses the Scarecrow theory. He describes the use of Schräge Musik against the bombers; how search lights in the Ruhr operated, the use of H2S and how the master bomber controlled the rest of the formation. At the end of his tour Eric re-mustered and was posted at RAF Jurby as airfield controller. From there he went to RAF Topcliffe and was demobbed in January 1947. Eric went back to the railways for 10 years before working in local government. He retired in 1978, moving to Cornwall. While at RAF Pocklington he dated Cora, noting that her parents made him feel like a son, but he then ended the relationship because, with his own life in such jeopardy, he thought it was unfair on her. After the war he married Ellen, who he had met when starting his first job with the railways. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Andy Fitter Maureen Clarke Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--London England--Bedfordshire England--Devon England--Suffolk England--Yorkshire Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Isle of Man Wales Wales--Vale of Glamorgan France France--Caen France--Pas-de-Calais France--Nieppe Forest Germany Germany--Essen Germany--Ruhr (Region) Atlantic Ocean Atlantic Ocean--Baltic Sea Denmark Denmark--Bornholm Europe--Ardennes Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1923 1937 1939 1940 1944-01 1944-02 1944-07-25 1944-09 1945 1946-05-25 1947-01-02 1957 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1981 102 Squadron 1652 HCU Absent Without Leave air gunner aircrew anti-aircraft fire bomb aimer bombing crewing up demobilisation FIDO flight engineer forced landing H2S Halifax Heavy Conversion Unit Initial Training Wing love and romance master bomber military living conditions mine laying Mosquito navigator Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944) Pathfinders pilot radar RAF Pocklington RAF St Athan RAF Topcliffe RAF Woodbridge recruitment runway Scarecrow Schräge Musik searchlight tactical support for Normandy troops target indicator training V-1 V-2 V-weapon Wellington Window wireless operator https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1010/11777/AWilliamsVD170403.mp3 8a621ee7029aea31c03d42b2eea0d61f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Williams, Vivian V D Williams Vivian David Williams Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Williams, VD Description An account of the resource Two items. An oral history interview with Corporal Vivian Williams (b. 1920, 616291 Royal Air Force) and one photograph. Vivian Williams served a a fitter with 56 Squadron at RAF North Weald and various training units. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Vivian Williams and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document CB: My name is Chris Brockbank and today is Monday the 3rd of April 2017 and we’re in Fiskerton in Lincolnshire talking with Vivian Williams about his life and times. What are your earliest recollections of life then, Vivian? VW: A new house I should think. We lived in a small village called Tonyrefail — T O N Y R E F A I L where they had they, they had built, just after 1920, a new housing estate. It was semi-detached houses most of them, and they were rough cast in those days. And they had a bathroom. That was another something I remember. And they were, well at that time they were ten years before their time you know. And so that was one of the highlights. The next one was the oil lamp in the middle of the table. It had this gold filigree base, cast iron base, and a beautiful blue resin. Then shortly afterwards — yeah, that was, I must have been about four then. And shortly afterwards they actually put electricity in. As early as that, you know. And I can remember fooling about watching the electrician doing it, you know. And they had the old tumbler switches on and you screwed the cap off you know. The front of it off. And so I saw the bloke doing this and he was poking around with a screwdriver when he was connecting all the leads up. So I put my mother’s scissors in there. I leant on a chair, put my mother’s scissors in and got knocked across the room. Why I didn’t get killed I don’t know [laughs] but it was what kids I suppose. And I’d say the next big thing was the 1926 strike. And we were kept alive on charity in those days. And after that we moved to Pontypridd and stayed there until I was left school at fourteen. Elementary school. And then I was the only one in the family that could get a job. Because you got a, you went down the mine, of course everybody went down the mine so you went down the mine at fourteen and you went with a skilled man called a collier for five years. And then when you were nineteen they give you the sack and they’d give him a new boy. So, I said to my mum, I’d finished school at the end of July when the August holidays break up and, ‘When am I going to go down and get a job?’ And so she said, ‘ No, you’re not. You’re going up to London to live with my gran.’ So that was the next move. Up to London. And then the family moved up seven months later and we settled there. Had various jobs. Usually outside jobs because I couldn’t stand the factory you know. And, and then in 1938, in 1938 I joined the Territorials and I was on a searchlight detachment for a year. And then I said — I got fed up with that. I lost my job because just before, at the end of 1938, around about 1938, just say the end — they had a, had a slump in engineering and you couldn’t get a job anywhere. On the Great West Road where I worked. The factory there and all the factories were putting people off. And I was on shift work and they put off our shift. And the other shift went on to day work with the rest of the factory. And they sacked sixty four of us. You went to get your pay on Friday night and they gave you your cards. Your pay and your cards straightaway. Not an hour’s notice even. PW: Which firm was that? VW: Tecalemit they were lubrication specialists. Because cars in those days had umpteen grease nipples all over the chassis and everywhere. And it was an industry on its own, you know. And I was home for about three weeks getting under my mother’s feet and I said to our corporal, met corporal, I said, ‘I’m going to join the army.’ Because I just had to get away, you know, and nobody could get a job just then and so he said, ‘Don’t join the army,’ he said. He said, ‘I’ve done fifteen years in it and it never did me any good,’ and he said, ‘Join the RAF.’ And I said, ‘No. I can’t join the RAF.’ Because those days to get in you had to have a school certificate which I presume is something like four or five A levels you know. PW: O levels. CB: O levels rather. And he said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘You’d be surprised.’ So I went up to Adastral House where you applied. And I found that they had started an expansion scheme in the RAF and had created new trades and a flight mechanic, which is what I was, was one of them. And they just dragged you in by the short and curlies you know. And that was it. And I was in the RAF then for — well ‘til the end of the war. I did what, because this was July ’38, so I did seven and a half years instead of the six that I signed for. But, yeah — CB: Where did you go to join the RAF? VW: The recruitment depot was at Aldwych near The Strand. And it was called Adastral House. So I, that was the first place I went to in the RAF. We were there overnight and, no, we were sent home and go back the next morning. Picked up the train to West Drayton. And that was the induction depot. And that’s where we were sworn in. Had our hair cut. They gave us ten bob which we thought was very nice. Except it was only an advance on your next weeks’ pay. They never told us that [laughs] The next morning we went to Uxbridge for our square drill. Did all our square drill, at Uxbridge. CB: How long did that last? VW: Twelve weeks. CB: So in addition to drill what else were you doing? VW: There. Nothing really. Oh we had, the only other thing that happened we had two weeks off completely because they had the scare in September of 1938 and we were filling sand bags. And nobody ever hears of it but we was almost on alert you know, then. Then we put the complete automatic telephone exchange in. We were humping all the, carrying all the various bits and pieces for 11 Fighter Group which was right behind our dining hall. And of course it’s down steps. Lots. Have you seen the hill? The complete thing is in the hill. And we were only allowed to carry all the equipment and everything to the top of the steps and they had their own team then that took it down in to the bottom. So we never saw the inside of it at all. CB: This was the underground fighter control. VW: Yeah. 11 Group. CB: Position. VW: 11 Fighter Group. CB: Yes. It’s open to the public now. VW: Yeah. It is is it? CB: It is. Yes. VW: Yeah well. I humped all the cabinets and all the equipment that went down in there. And we had a fortnight off for that. CB: Right. VW: Yeah. CB: So you’re doing drill. Did you do PT? VW: Oh yes. Oh yes. CB: Now what about classroom work? VW: No. Just drill. We did just drill. PT. We did. We had — they give us an introduction to show that you were in the RAF. And they had two old fuselages, just fuselages, in the MT section and they were bolted to the wall, or chained to the wall but the engines were serviceable. And they used to just take us over there and after about a fortnight and show you. This sergeant and his corporal starting them up you know. But no it was just drill and ceremonial drill and we — PW: Tell them about running those engines. Starting those engines. VW: Oh yeah. They, the funny thing we were down in Old Warden and they had a — what was that one they started Phil? PW: Oh that was a Camel. VW: A Camel. And he started it by swinging the prop in reverse. And this is what the sergeant used to do. Swinging it in reverse. And we heard later on that he got killed doing it. But yeah but that was the only diversion if you like. The rest was just drill. Drill all the time. CB: And you had twelve weeks of that. VW: Yeah. CB: In total. VW: Well, yeah except for the – CB: The two weeks. VW: Two weeks I was out. Yeah. But we lost that. CB: At what stage did you know what trade you were going to take? VW: Oh right from the first. Because they said, give me the choice of being a flight mechanic or a flight rigger. And I said I’d be a mechanic. So that was put on your docs straight away. CB: And when did they describe what was involved with that? VW: Oh at the first interview. CB: Right. VW: At Adastral house, you know. CB: So what was it that the flight mechanic was designated to do? VW: As a mechanic he was responsible for the day to day maintenance of whatever engine or aeroplane he was put on. CB: So after Uxbridge where did you go then? VW: Well, we went down to Manston in Kent. But it was on a course that was actually obsolete but we were a small flight. Instead of being a hundred and forty four we were only sixty four and I think they lost us somewhere and they posted us to Manston on this course which was three weeks on engines and three weeks on air frames and as I say it was called a fitter’s mate’s course. You were only qualified to hand the spanners out, you know on that one. But it was obsolete anyway and then from there we went to Henlow in Bedfordshire to do a basic engineering course for six weeks there. And then from there we went to St Athans. Got to St Athans on January the 16th in 1939. And they were, we were there until the end of July and — close to the end of July and then we were given eighteen days leave. And then I was posted to 56 Squadron. Fighter squadron. And at North Weald on Hurricanes. CB: When you were at St Athan that was basically an engines course was it? VW: Yeah. It was. Yeah. CB: So what variety of engines did you deal with then? VW: Pegasus. Bristol Pegasus and Rolls Royce Kestrels. And of course the Kestrel was obsolete then wasn’t it? CB: Did you have any Merlins there? Or — VW: No. No. No. CB: So the first time you came across Merlins was when you went to the Hurricanes? VW: Well, we had three. We had three Hurricanes there. That was the nearest I’d came come to the Merlin. But to work on, no. It wasn’t until I got to 56 Squadron. As I say that was my job. I was responsible for the day to day maintenance of the aeroplane that they put me on which is actually hanging in the roof of the South Kensington Museum. CB: Is it? Right. VW: And — CB: It survived that long VW: Yes. Phil would know. PW: It’s a miracle survivor. CB: It’s a Mark I Hurricane. PW: Yes. VW: Two. CB: Mark 2 is it? VW: Yeah. CB: Right. PW: No, it was a Mark 1 dad. VW: Was it? PW: Yeah. it’s L1592. VW: Yeah. CB: So what was the serviceability like of the squadron? There were how many aircraft in the squadron first? VW: There was twelve aircraft. CB: And what — VW: Two flights of six. CB: Yeah. VW: Twelve aircraft. A flight and B flight. Yeah. CB: And what was serviceability like? VW: Very good because they’d only been equipped with new Hurricanes some months before I got there and I think they didn’t fly very often but I think they must have been restricted. Looking back. You know, for saving the fuel because, you know, they knew what was going to happen. But they would only fly perhaps two hours a week. CB: Amazingly low. VW: Hmmn? CB: Amazingly low. VW: Yeah. CB: So what — VW: They had to keep their hours in, you know. CB: Yes. The pilots had to keep enough hours. VW: Yeah. CB: To be able to qualify. VW: Yes. That’s right. For their logbook. CB: So how much leave did you have at the end of St Athan? VW: Eighteen days. CB: Oh eighteen days. VW: Yeah. CB: Right. So we’re in August. VW: Yeah. CB: When you get to North Weald. VW: Yeah. CB: Right. And how long did you spend in North Weald in total? VW: We moved. The squadron moved in October. Yeah. In October and we moved to Martlesham Heath in Suffolk. They were, they were on convoy duty for the convoys. Shipping in the North Sea. They had a sector to patrol. CB: Right. VW: And, but we, but everything was very quiet. Very quiet, you know. They only had one, our own squadron only had one tussle with a reconnaissance flight, you know. A Dornier. One of the Dorniers’. Something like that and that’s the only time we saw the gun patches blown off the guns, you know, like that. But other than that it was very quiet. We had nothing very much to do at all. Just wait. They just did patrols and nothing else. CB: So you got there in October ’39. VW: Yeah. CB: How long did you stay with that squadron? VW: Until Christmas. CB: Right. VW: I only stayed with them six months altogether. CB: Right. VW: The first six months of the war. CB: Then what? VW: Then I went on a conversion course to be a fitter. CB: Where was that? VW: At Hednesford in Staffordshire. CB: To be fitting what? VW: Pardon? CB: A conversion course to be a fitter. VW: Yeah. That meant that — CB: Specialising in what? VW: Yeah. But you were only allowed to do certain things as a mechanic. Like, as I say, the day to day maintenance. CB: Right. VW: Which was nothing much more than filling the tanks and doing the ground runs in the morning. And then while, when I first went there they used to have all the cowlings off on a Friday morning. Just once a week. CB: Right. VW: Just to see that nothing had fallen off. Or you know, nuts loose on the, the exhaust stubs. Check them all around and that sort of thing. And mostly it was observation. CB: Yeah. VW: You had the run every morning. You would check the, just check the mag drops and that. CB: So you’d run them up every morning. VW: Oh yeah. CB: How did you make sure that plugs didn’t oil up? Because if all you were doing was running it up. Did the plugs oil up doing that? No. No. You didn’t get plugs oiling up at all. CB: So you didn’t do plug changes because the planes weren’t flying enough. VW: Oh no. No. Because that wasn’t my job. But when I went on a conversion course as a fitter. CB: Yes. VW: Instead of being on the flights. CB: Yes. VW: Out on the aerodrome. We were in the hangar and we you doing inspections. And these inspections came around at pre-determined intervals. And then of course you did things like plug changes and oil filters. CB: Oh, they were done then. Right. VW: Yeah. And well anything that was going. Anything that could be done on the station and we couldn’t do a lot because we were a mobile squadron and we had to be away completely in an hour and forty minutes. CB: Oh did you? VW: Yeah. CB: Right. VW: Shifted. Gone. So our stores was in a big box in one of the annexes in the hangar, you know. Instead of the usual thing of a separate building. PW: Yeah. VW: Like you get. But we had to carry everything with us. CB: What were the trucks that you were using for that? Crossleys. VW: We had, we had a three ton Albion lorry. Yeah. And a Bedford artic flat bed. And that took all our stands and that you used for propping up the plane when you’re doing jobs on them you know and that sort of thing. Any equipment that we had which was very little so we couldn’t do a lot. But as a fitter you were qualified then to go into what they called maintenance and you just went into the maintenance hangar and you did whatever was scheduled as maintenance on that particular aeroplane or that particular engine. CB: So, on this course at Hednesford. VW: Yeah. CB: Then that was on specific aircraft. Which one was that? VW: No. No. Just engines. CB: Just in general. VW: Just engines in general. Yeah. CB: Ok. How long did that last? The course. VW: Well from Christmas. Christmas ’39. I went there on Christmas Day 1939. And we left there to do, did part of the course there and we finished it off at Cosford. And I carried my [unclear] when we went there. Somewhere about halfway through the course. And we left on the 30th of May and I got posted to the Channel Islands. Because that’s the first flying school that I went to. The School of General Reconnaissance. And they were at Guernsey. But we were only there a fortnight. We had to get out anyway because the Germans were coming in. But we should have, the flights were at Guernsey and we should have been posted to the parent unit which was at Thorney Island. And they mixed it up again so we had another fortnight’s holiday on Guernsey until we had to pack up and go. And went back to Thorney Island there [pause] We were there at Thorney Island [pause] PW: What dad’s not telling you — VW: Until — we were there, I can’t remember when we left but we were there but we were there while Dunkirk was on. CB: Right. VW: Because everybody had to have, no matter where you went you had to have a Lee Enfield and fifty rounds of ammunition. CB: Oh. VW: Everybody. Everybody on the station was armed. You know. Ready for anything like that. And we left there to go to a place called Hooton Park up near Liverpool. Well Wallasey. And the day after we left they flattened the hangar. CB: At Thorney Island. VW: Yeah. CB: Did they? VW: Yeah. Flattened it. So we were dead lucky there. CB: Well, Dunkirk was the end of May so perhaps you went to Thorney Island a bit earlier — to Guernsey a bit earlier than that. VW: [pause] Yeah. It’s a long time ago. CB: It doesn’t matter. VW: Yeah. It’s a long time ago. CB: It’s all around the same time. VW: Yeah. CB: What — at Thorney Island what were you supposed to be servicing there? VW: Ansons. CB: Oh right. These were shipping reconnaissance were they? Or what were they doing? VW: Well, it was the school. It was called the School of General Reconnaissance. CB: Oh I see. Right. VW: It was. It didn’t have a squadron number. CB: Yeah. VW: It was the School of General Reconnaissance. CB: Ok. VW: And shifted us up to Hooton Park. CB: Yeah. VW: Which was just across the Mersey from Speke Airport. CB: Right. VW: And from there we went to Blackpool. We missed the blitz on Liverpool. CB: Right. How long did you stay at Hooton Park then? VW: Oh just a matter of a couple of months I should think. CB: Right. VW: And then [paused] we were posted to Blackpool. And that’s a date I remember because when I was posted from Blackpool to South Cerney in Wiltshire. CB: Yeah. VW: It was on the 18th of October. PW: Gloucestershire. CB: Yeah. That’s where I joined the RAF. VW: Sorry? CB: That’s where I joined the RAF. VW: Where? CB: South Cerney. PW: South Cerney. VW: Yes [laughs] PW: 1 FTS. CB: So, so, yeah. 18th of October ’40. VW: Yeah. CB: At South Cerney. What was happening there? This was a different unit was it? VW: Oh yeah. That was 3FTS. Number 3 Flying Training School. We were doing conversions. Taking the pilots from the Empire Air Training Scheme. Canada and South Africa. CB: Oh yes. VW: And converting them from like Harvards onto twin engine Oxfords. Airspeed Oxfords. CB: Right. VW: Yeah. CB: Because these were people all destined for bombing. Bombers. VW: Yeah. CB: Ok. VW: They were introduction to multi engine. CB: Yeah. And how long did that last? That posting. VW: That posting lasted till Christmas again. 1942. CB: Right. VW: Nearly two years there. CB: And during that time you were dealing with the, what were the engines on the Ansons? VW: The engines? Oh the Cheetah 9s. CB: Cheetahs. Yeah. VW: Cheetah 9s. And then when we left South Cerney we went to 17 AFU. Advanced Flying Unit at Watton in Norfolk and we were on Masters 2s. Fighter trainer. CB: Did they have other planes as well? VW: No. Just them because we did engine changes all the time. I was in, in the maintenance hangar there was a fitter. CB: Yeah. VW: I passed out as a fitter so I was in the maintenance hangar and we did what — they used to come around to the maximum number of between inspections and we just changed engines all the time. CB: It was quicker. VW: Yeah. CB: What were the engines? VW: It was easier for us to change the engines and send them back to places like Alvaston in Derbyshire and they did a complete overhaul of them. CB: Right. VW: In the factories. CB: What were the engines? VW: Mercuries. Bristol Mercuries. CB: So how long at Watton? So from Christmas ’42. VW: To [pause] now my dates are a bit [pause] I can’t remember my dates after that. CB: Ok. Where were you posted to after you’d finished? VW: At Watton? CB: At Watton. VW: We cleared out everything. All our backlog we cleared that up and the Americans moved in and it became a bomber ‘drome then I suppose. One of these bombardments groups would be there. And it was all grass when we were there and they put thousands of tons of cement in one hangar and they put obviously concrete runways in, but we’d gone by then. CB: So personally where did you go to? VW: We went to a little ‘drome near Crewe called Calveley. C A L V E L E Y. Calveley. And doing the same thing there. Training pilots, you know. A lot of them from overseas. Australia. New Zealanders. And then we went — CB: What were the planes? What were the aircraft there? VW: Master 2s. CB: Right. VW: They were the same squadron like. 17 AFU. CB: Oh right. VW: And then we went to Spitalgate near Grantham. That was 12 FTS. Yeah. PW: No. 12 PAFU. VW: Oh yeah. Yeah. Probably yeah. Yeah. Advanced Flying Unit. Yeah. And from there we moved up to, that would be around about the end of 1944. And we went to Hixon in Staffordshire. Hixon. And was there about two months and then I got posted to Lyneham on Transport Command. That’s when I finally got out of flying Training Command. That’s when we went to Lyneham. And we were flying Yorks there. CB: At Transport Command. VW: Transport Command. Yeah. CB: What were you doing at Hixon? VW: Just on the same, 17AFU. Doing the same thing. CB: Yeah. VW: But not much at all. CB: Right. What was the aircraft? Because it was an Advanced Flying School. What was the aircraft were they using? VW: Oh the same as we had at Grantham. CB: Oh. VW: They were Blenheim 4s and they were obsolete too. CB: Yeah. VW: The first time I saw them was at Martlesham. One of the first bombing raids of the war and it was a flight of five from two squadrons, 110 and 107 and they flew over and they bombed the islands off the German coast. Silt and Bochum. Like that. And they surprised them, 110 Squadron, Yeah. They surprised them and lost one. When 107 Squadron’s five went over they lost four out of the five. That was some of the very early casualties. CB: And that was from Martlesham. VW: Yes. Yeah. I think they hadn’t got that much of a range and I think they were at Wattisham and they lobbed down at Martlesham and filled the tanks up. CB: Right. VW: Topped the tanks up. Yeah. But — and then I was demobbed from Lyneham. CB: When was that? VW: January the 26th 1946. CB: Right. How did you feel about that? VW: Actually, I was enjoying myself and we were, I was a corporal and I was offered to be made sergeant if I signed on. My wife put her foot on that and, ‘No. Not likely,’ she said. ‘You’re coming home.’ By that time we had my daughter and Phil and his younger brother who is just over from Australia. And they were there so she’d had the three of them from 1940. My daughter was born, and he was ’44. PW: I was ’44 Ted was ’46. VW: And Ted was 46’ PW: Yeah. VW: So I had to get home and take my responsibilities. CB: So the rank of sergeant eluded you. VW: Oh yeah. Yeah. CB: But you’d looked forward to that had you? VW: Well yeah because I was enjoying myself there. It was a very nice station and also we had chances of — they used to fly out as far as Japan, you know, taking engines and equipment to all the stops that Transport Command from Lyneham used to stop at. They used to go from Lyneham to Gibraltar. Gibraltar to Cairo West. From Cairo West to somewhere in what was then Persia, Iraq. PW: Habbaniya. VW: Yeah. And then Karachi and then Singapore. But they did fly, I remember they flew a prop to Japan. I think it was for the Lancaster. You know. That went all around the world after the war. CB: Oh yes. VW: They were trying to sell them. CB: Yes. VW: You know, so they were on a promotional tour and they had several with a prop in Tokyo. And they flew the prop out there. CB: Yeah. The Argentinians bought fifteen. VW: I didn’t know if they sold any. CB: They did. Yeah. VW: Because it wasn’t all that long. Well I say it wasn’t all that long. They [pause] I was at working as a civilian on the Maintenance Unit at 5 MU at Kemble. CB: After the war. VW: On Lancasters. CB: Yeah. VW: And it wasn’t, I was there for about a year and we would bring them in from the, from the service and they would examine them. The inspectors would go over them to see what was wanted to be done and they had a list of things to be done. And then they would mothball them to a certain extent. Put them out and then when the RAF wanted them they’d bring them back in to our hangars, the preparation hangars. And we’d do everything that was on the list, like that. And they’d go back into service. New paint job. And, but that didn’t last very long and the next thing they were out on the park and they just chopped them up. Got rid of them all. CB: Well how full was Kemble Airfield? How full was it with these things? VW: How? CB: How full? How many aircraft on it? VW: Oh. Must have been about a hundred I should think. CB: Oh right. VW: Easy. And Hants and Sussex Aviation just took, they broke them all up. CB: Yeah. VW: And took them for scrap. And we say now there were rows of four Merlin engines there all over the place and if they’d seen them today. The people who need them, you know. CB: Yeah. VW: They’d cry. CB: Yeah. I bet. VW: Should be here somewhere. CB: I’ll just stop the, stop this for a mo. [recording paused] CB: We paused just for you to get your prized screwdriver. Could you just describe. We’ve just had a picture of you with it. Could you just describe the background of it? Please. VW: Yeah the screwdriver is basically a Merlin blockstud. CB: Yeah. VW: And the ends have been re-formed to make it into a chisel. And the handle is carved out of, shaped out of a solid block of aluminium. And the machinist shaped the handle and then he put, he drilled it to take the squared end of the, the square taper in to that. And he put the shank, the stud in the lathe and — the other way about. The handle was in the lathe and this was in the turret of his capstan lathe like that. CB: Right. VW: And he just pulled the capstan handles and — CB: Put it straight in. VW: And it never moved. CB: No. VW: At all. CB: Now that engine stud. How would that have been formed in the aircraft? On the engine. Because you had the block and the head separate didn’t you? VW: Yeah. CB: So how, how did this work. VW: This end was screwed in to the crank case. All you got was the crank case itself with the holes in it to take this and that was screwed in to there. Then you slide the cylinders on, right. So the end, this end, threaded again would protrude above the top of block. CB: Yes. VW: And then the head itself would slide down over that as well and this is just long enough then so that you get enough thread on the end to take the nut that holds the whole lot together. The three pieces together like that. CB: Ok. VW: And it’s in a block like that because it’s a V engine. So you have two rows of these down one side and two down the other side like that for the other block. CB: So getting the block on is a heavy job. PW: Yes. VW: Well it’s yeah but — CB: Sorry the cylinder head I meant to say. VW: The cylinder is not so bad. Getting the block is the bad job because you have to introduce six pistons in to the bottom of the cylinders. CB: Yes. VW: As so all six have got to be in the right place and you’ve to gently feed them in, feed the rings in. Squeeze the rings to go in and then you just work it down very carefully because what makes it worse it’s on an angle anyway, you know, like that. CB: Yes. A V12. VW: It’s suspended you know and the block is on an angle going down because of the V of the engine. CB: Yes. VW: But — yeah. CB: So these wet liner engines are they? PW: Yeah. VW: They, well Phil knows more about them then I do. CB: They are. Effectively that’s why you’re putting in the — VW: Yeah. CB: Cylinder and then putting the head on. VW: Yeah. Yeah. CB: Right. VW: Yeah. Because — CB: Ok. And then for each part of the V. VW: Yeah. CB: Because these are V12s you’ve got six cylinders. Each. How many studs are there per cylinder? VW: Four. CB: Right. So that’s twenty four. VW: Yeah. CB: And you’re trying to thread the head over that. VW: You’ve got rows like a porcupine. PW: It’s like there are four studs per cylinder. VW: Yeah. PW: But between the cylinders the studs are shared. CB: Right. PW: If you can imagine. CB: Yeah. PW: You know, you have four studs for this one and then two of them become two of the four for that one. CB: Right. Ok. PW: So you got fourteen studs on each side. CB: I see. Ok. PW: Yeah. CB: Right. [recording paused] CB: Now, when you were at Lyneham what was the excitement you had there? VW: I was in a little section. And I had a gang of four airmen and they were split into groups of two in a little workshop alongside the hangar. And when the, the engines had done a certain number of hours in the aeroplane they were taken off the whole, what we called a power egg right from the wing, the front of the wing, you know from the firewall. CB: Yeah. VW: The big bulkhead. CB: Yeah. VW: And they’d take the lot off. Just undo all the connections and then they’d put it in a special stand with four wheels and they’d bolt them in there like that. And then they’d link them all up together and then the David Brown would bring them up to our place. CB: A tractor. VW: Yeah. Bring them all to our place and I went up two of them. And the other corporal in the hangar he would have the other two for his four blokes. And they used to have two on each and then we would take the engines out and then renew any, anything that controlled our pipes. You know. Various things in the, that was left, you know, in the engine bearer. Any oil pipes, fuel pipes, coolant pipes, perhaps put a new coolant tank in which is just over behind the prop. Anything like that that had to be renewed. And then put a new engine in, like that. And then they’d go back in into hangars straight on to the Yorks. CB: Now the York was essentially a Lancaster with a different body. What about the engines? Were they different? VW: It had Lancaster things on it didn’t it? CB: Were the engines the same as the Lancaster? VW: Well, no not really because they were Merlin 24s that we had. CB: Was that more powerful? VW: No. I don’t think so. Were they Phil? PW: They were slightly more powerful yeah. The general run of the mill Lancaster Merlin was twelve fifty horsepower or thereabouts. VW: Yeah. PW: And these were, I think they were slightly more. About fourteen hundred so a little more powerful. But they had different characteristics. The supercharging was slightly different on them. So, you know the York’s flew a different profile to the Lancaster and the engines were suited to that characteristics. CB: And they didn’t fly so high. PW: Didn’t fly so high. VW: Yeah they went through. PW: Yeah. CB: So fast forward now to Kemble. So you’re a civilian there with 5MU. How long did that last? VW: Two years. CB: Then what? VW: This isn’t — do you need this? CB: Well, it’s just to know what people did after the war really. VW: Oh yeah. CB: Because you learned a lot in the war that you didn’t know before. VW: Yeah. CB: How did that impinge on your career until your retirement? VW: Yeah. Well I went straight into a garage you know, because knowing engines. And I had four years, yeah, four years in the garage. That brought me up to 1950. And the Suez Crisis happened. CB: ’56 that was. PW: No. You’re getting confused with Berlin dad. CB: So 1948 was Berlin. So the Korean War was 1950. Did you called in to the Korean War? VW: Maybe. That was — CB: I’ll stop that just for [pause] yeah go on. VW: The — anyway the petrol went back on the basic ration. CB: Yeah. VW: So lots of people took their cars off the road and they sacked twelve of us. CB: Right. VW: In the garage. Because they had no work. I went to the, what they used to call then the Labour Exchange for a job and they said, ‘What did you do in the war?’ I said, ‘I was an aircraft mechanic.’ They said, ‘We’ve got a job for you,’ and they sent me out to Kemble. To the MU. And I was there for two years. And then I had various jobs. Short term. Taxies. I drove a taxi. And then I went from there to driving milk tankers for the Co-op Milk Department. And I had six years. No. Eight years. Eight years with them. PW: A long while with them. VW: Eight years with them. And actually in the first year wasn’t on the tankers. It was picking up the milk from farms in churns. You know. And then I went from that on the tankers for what we used to call long distance. Our long distance was a hundred miles a day I think at the most. Because you covered all the south of England. But yeah, and in 1962 I went into the factory in Swindon building motor bodies for British Leyland. And I was there then ‘til I retired. CB: Which was when? VW: 1984. CB: So just to get the sequence because we changed it slightly. Did you go from Lyneham into working as a garage mechanic? VW: Yeah I — CB: Before, before you went to Kemble. VW: Oh yeah. Well that was when I was demobbed. CB: Yes. VW: From there. CB: Yeah. Ok. Right. I got it the wrong way around. What year were you married? VW: 1940. Yeah. CB: And how did you meet your wife? PW: Teenagers really. VW: We were fifteen when we married because she was just nine months older than me so we were both about fifteen. Yeah. PW: That was when you met wasn’t it? VW: Pardon? PW: That’s when you met. VW: Yeah. PW: Because you said when we were married [laughs] VW: Oh no. When we first met. Yeah. We married in 1940. Sheila was born in ’41. CB: She lived near you. VW: Pardon? CB: She lived near you did she, is that how you — VW: Yes. In the locality yes. CB: Yeah. Good. Right I’m going to stop there for a mo. Thank you very much. [recording paused] CB: So just, just going back a bit Vivian. VW: Yeah. CB: When you were in the Territorial Army and you working at Tacalemit VW: Yeah. CB: What did you do in the Territorial Army? VW: I was on a searchlight detachment and we, we had a ninety centimetre light and we had six lights altogether and I was on, I was always on what was called the home light. So I was on the centre and all the other five, yeah the other five, they were three or four miles away in a ring around as me in the centre. Like that. They were disbursed about three or four miles. And we used to have two girls fly a Dominie from, a Dragon Rapide in Croydon as the target. So the the detachment would be two spotters laid out at forty five degrees from the light. They are there. The lights here. I’m on the end of the long arm with the wheel, the wheel elevates it and to go around you just walk forwards or backwards, you know, like that. Very primitive. And then I had an earpiece and we had a telephone line to what they called the sound locators. They were sort of wooden horns. And they were on a stand and you could move them that way or around. You know. PW: Azimuth. VW: Circular movement you know. And also you’d get the elevation to get the sound. And then there was a corporal who was, lance corporal who was in charge and he was shouting in the other ear. And so you know we didn’t know where we were half the time and it was like [Fred Carnell’s?] outfit. It really was. All the other lights were all over the sky like waving corn you know. Like that. And then the girls would, they’d be flying without navigation lights, you know and they’d get fed up and switch the navigation lights on [laughs] and everybody was on to them. CB: And suddenly you’d get them. Yes. VW: And we’d cone them in the aeroplane you know. Great stuff. And they would switch the navigation lights off again and we were all lost. We were all over the sky again you know. CB: These wooden detectors were pre-radar weren’t they? VW: Oh yeah. CB: So this was the only system they had. VW: They came out the ark I should think. CB: Yes. And they didn’t work. VW: No. No. CB: So how often did you actually acquire a target with a light? VW: I don’t think we ever acquired one at all. Only when they switched the navigation lights on [laughs] CB: [laughs] Right. VW: And I was on that for about nine months I suppose. CB: Yeah. VW: We used to go out to aerodromes. Down to Aldershot, you know. Any military establishment like that. We used to go and spend a weekend. CB: You’d take the lights. VW: Take the lights. CB: Yes. And how — VW: And then we’d — pardon? CB: All six would go would they? VW: Yeah. And the lorries that they were transported with were Tilling-Stevens Petrol Electric. CB: Right. VW: You might, I think you’d have to go online to find them. PW: Yes. You would. VW: They were — that’s what they were called. Petrol electric. How that worked I don’t know but they would, they had this damned great generator on them. And we used to [pause] then he had a long cable. Oh it must have been about fifty feet at least. And he’d got to link up this cable so you don’t hear anything of the generator going at all. And [pause] and as I say I’d be on the home light and as I say we never, never really caught one at all. We were always all over the sky you know. Only when the girls switched the nav lights on. But it was, it was fun really. We were having a good time. You know. Not really working at it you know. PW: Not taking it very serious. VW: For us it was so impossible to find them. CB: Well it was always peacetime wasn’t it so there wasn’t exactly an incentive to do a lot. VW: Yeah. Yeah we used to go and do aerodromes and army. CB: What was the unit called? VW: The unit was called [pause] my army number was 2052042. Sapper. Sapper Williams. 339 Company. 26th London Electrical Engineers. R E, Royal Engineers. We come under Royal Engineers. PW: Only the army. VW: Yeah [laughs] yeah. CB: This is before they really got the searchlight detachments operating. VW: Well then they had the big ones you know. CB: Yeah. VW: They also had a hundred and twenty sized. A hundred and twenty centimetres but they were the same, just a larger light. And they were carbon arc lights. And then of course I went on crush guard somewhere near Spalding and they had a searchlight detachment there and it was a radar controlled light. This was some years later in the war. And it was radar controlled and it must have been a hundred and eighty, nearly two hundred metres, you know. Like that. CB: Centimetres. VW: Radar controlled. CB: Yeah. VW: That was I don’t know how successful they were but we were bloody hopeless. PW: Pretty good. CB: So you enjoyed it. VW: Oh yeah. The Terriers. You know. It was adequate. It was an opportunity to get dressed up. CB: Yeah. VW: We used to get a few raspberries here and there, you know. Saturday night soldier. CB: Yeah. VW: But no I quite liked being in a crowd you know like that. In the company. Yeah. CB: And when you joined the RAF how different was that? VW: It was, it was much the same. I liked being with the company of other people. You know. I quite liked it in the early times you know, like that. And it wasn’t until I come across — I ran fowl of this engineer, warrant officer. That spoiled me for the RAF and I wasn’t interested after that. CB: So what happened there? When was that? VW: What? CB: When did you meet this difficult person? VW: October 1940. Yeah. October 1940. CB: So what happened there? VW: Well the School of GR was at Blackpool and they got posted to South Africa and — but they had this idea that you were going to get your wives out there so you had to be earning a certain amount, certain level of pay to cope with the cost of living out there. And I wasn’t. I was thruppence a day short because I wasn’t an LAC then. And so there was twenty of us I think that got then posted to different units in the UK. And I went to South Cerney. And I was there two years. You know. CB: But you mentioned this warrant officer. PW: This guy was — CB: What was the significance of that? VW: Well he was the engineering warrant officer of that and he, we just got off on the wrong foot. And I became bloody minded and I was always in trouble. I was always up on a charge. And in the end the engineering officer had us both in the office and he got as much of a bollocking as I did there, you know. He said it himself, he said, ‘This has got to stop.’ He said, ‘Getting him on,’ me, ‘Putting on a charge on trivial things,’ he said, ‘It only makes a man bloody minded.’ And he coined the phrase. PW: And he was exactly right. VW: And, yeah, and after that instead of being recommended for your classifications you had to take a board so he couldn’t do anything else but give me the opportunity to have a board. He comes up to me in the hangar and he said, ‘You’ve done very well.’ It took him a lot to actually congratulate me on it. It must have been hard for him. CB: Dented his pride a bit did it? And the result of the board was what? VW: I became an LAC then. And then a little while later I got posted from there to 17 AFU at Watton. And the engineering officer said, ‘What’s that thing on your sleeve?’ And I said, ‘It’s a good conduct stripe.’ He said, ‘How long have you been an LAC?’ I said, ‘Not very long sir.’ And he said, ‘Right,’ he said, he said, ‘You should have been a corporal by now, you know, at least.’ And I said, I didn’t, I just sort of bluffed it over, you know. Didn’t say what had happened obviously. CB: No. VW: And he said, ‘We’ll soon do something about that. And then in two months I was a corporal. PW: I bet he found out what had been going on. VW: I don’t know, he must have, yeah. PW: ‘Cause it would have been, it would have been on your records. VW: He must have looked on my docs. On my records. PW: On your records. CB: Trouble is that warrant officers are difficult to challenge. VW: Yeah. Yeah. And the thing was you see then you were getting, frequently getting overseas postings. Well, we were, I was actually living out in Cirencester. Being a married man. CB: Yeah. VW: And so they, the sort unspoken rule then was that all these overseas postings were filled by single blokes. You know. And he was living out as well so you know we were in the same boat. He couldn’t treat me any different you know and so we got away with it like that. Made it so much easier. CB: What would you say was the most memorable point about your RAF service? VW: Memorable. Oh my first flight. CB: Because we haven’t talked about that. So, ok, so first flight. VW: Yeah. CB: What was that? VW: In a Magister. We were supposed to have an air experience flight at the end of the technical course at St Athans but there were so many entrants there, you know. People coming off the courses. They were pushing them through as fast as they could and they just didn’t have enough aircraft to give everybody this air experience flight. And that was in a Magister. So we got to the squadron on 56 Squadron and suddenly one of the NCOs there found out that none of us airmen had flown. And our CO was quite surprised you know because we were in the air force. We obviously should have had at least had, as I say the air experience flight. The initial flight. So our CO borrowed a Magister from somewhere. And each pilot then took his crew up. And bring up and then all the way back and that was the best thrill I think I’ve ever had. You know. CB: Right. VW: And most memorable that was. Frightened I to death but I was hooked after that and I used to fly in anything on air test. A lot of blokes, you know would say you know, ‘I won’t fly in that bloody thing you know.’ But if a pilot went up I would. CB: Yeah. VW: I just loved flying. Still do. CB: How many hours do you reckon you got on doing those air tests? VW: I must have done seventy or eighty air tests and they ranged from ten minutes to an hour on the Lancs. CB: Yeah. VW: At Kemble. That’s the way to fly. On the Lancs. CB: Now the RAF was actually desperate for air crew. Particularly early on. So people were asked if they’d like to volunteer. What happened to you? VW: Well, as I say, you know I just — they just put my medical back a month but they said, ‘We’ll keep your posting open,’ but I never heard any more, you know, at all. And I didn’t push it because my wife said no. CB: Can we go fast backwards a bit? So how did you come to volunteer for aircrew in the first place? VW: To get away from that engineer warrant officer. CB: Right. Good. VW: The attitude in the hangar. I just lost interest in it you know. That’s how he affected me. I thought I couldn’t do anything right. Although a lot of it was my own fault but no. CB: So when you — VW: Actually you see then they were losing so many aircraft towards the end of 1942, or the middle of 1942 and I thought then, I mean I could have been posted to Stirlings or something like that. CB: Yeah. VW: And I wouldn’t have stood a hope in hell’s chance of coming through it. CB: Yeah. VW: And I hadn’t, my daughter then she was born. She was born in 1941 so — he wasn’t born till ’44. But — CB: So after you volunteered what was the next step? What did they do? VW: Oh I just got posted away. CB: No. No. They — what I meant to say was when you volunteered they then gave you some tests. So what was the first thing they did? VW: Well you were posted away on a gunner’s course. CB: Yes. VW: And, and you did that and I don’t know — perhaps their way of thinking. But you didn’t get your medical until you’d finished your gunner’s course. But our MO just took it into his mind, ‘Oh I’ll give you your medical now.’ You see. When we were clearing out our what’s the name, flew around. PW: Yeah. You go around getting cleared from the station. VW: You go around station and clear everything you know like that. Of course one section is the MO and as I say if he hadn’t given me my medical then I’d have gone through, you see. CB: Yeah. VW: I would have gone to the air gunner’s course and then back up to Penarth to the medical before I got sent on the, on the conversion course because I would have been the flight engineer. CB: What was the hiccup with your medical? VW: The fact that I had this paralysis. CB: Where? VW: And he knew how long it would last. CB: Where? What? VW: Before it, my face came back to normal again you see, like that, and he said, ‘We’ll keep your posting open,’ but they never did and we never pushed it. CB: ’Cause you wife wasn’t in favour. VW: No. No. She wasn’t. CB: Unsurprisingly. PW: If you knew my mum you’d understand just how much of a brick wall that was. VW: Yeah. I mean — CB: But looking back would you have liked to have converted to aircrew? VW: I would have liked to yes but looking back — CB: Ok. So — VW: I could weigh up the chances looking back. CB: Yeah. VW: And then never even thought about being shot down. CB: No. VW: Or anything like that. CB: No. You were invincible. VW: In retrospect, I mean I would, I could easily have been one of fifty five thousand. CB: And which planes would you have wanted to have flown in? VW: Oh the Lancaster. Yeah definitely. A Lancaster. Because the other went — I only know one of them. He was my mate there at Cerney. Name Lou Boyd. An Irish kiddie and he went and he did his conversion course at Swinderby. CB: Right. VW: On Lancs. I don’t know where the others went. I mean on one of them, on one of them. PW: 1660. VW: One of them was the sergeant in the hangar and he was thirty five PW: Yeah. VW: And he was the same as me. Just didn’t like our warrant officer. Never got on with him. And he went. Yeah thirty five he was. CB: And how many ops did he do? VW: I don’t know. I lost touch with all of them. I really did. CB: Right. VW: I only met Lou once. He came back and sorted us out and he was half way through his first tour then. CB: So he — VW: That was the, they told us when you lose an engine from mechanical failure. You don’t see it. You don’t realise it. The engine is not working. CB: Because it’s wind milling. VW: It’s wind milling. CB: Yeah. VW: And the thing is that it windmills. The revs stay the same. CB: Do they? VW: Yeah. The revs. The oil pressure stays the same, and that. You don’t get anything off the dials to indicate that it’s not running. The pilots afterwards said that there was, he felt a slight drag on that one side. But the first indication the engineer got, the flight engineer was the oil temperature goes down. CB: Right. VW: But everything else is the same bar the oil temperature. CB: Because the pilot can feel it yawing. PW: Just a little. VW: Yeah but he would just take that as the engines getting a bit out of sync. Perhaps. You know. CB: Right. VW: Like that. Yeah. CB: Actually that’s a point. How, yes, on the ground did you go through the procedures for synchronising the engines. VW: Well you get the throttles and your boost gauges as near as damned synchronised and then when it comes to revs you [pause] you set the revs by synchronising the two. Either starboard engine or the two port engines or two starboard engines. So you get one engine up to what do you call it [pause] economical cruising. And then you look through the propeller. The inboard propeller so that it’s superimposed on the inside of the outboard propeller and if its strobes they’re out of sync. CB: Right. VW: And you use then the prop control. CB: The pitch. VW: Pitch controls. CB: Yeah. VW: And when that stops and it’s superimposed and just stops inside the other and then you do the same with the other side. With the other two engines. CB: Just going back to your earlier point— if you lose an engine, you feather it and put it in — VW: Yeah. You can feather it yeah. CB: And what pitch can you put it in. What is the description of the pitch that you can put it in? VW: Neutral. CB: Right. VW: Because it’s just the blades are just dead on to the slipstream. CB: Yeah. The side of the blades. VW: Yeah. Yeah. CB: Yes. Good. Thank you very much. We’ve done really well. PW: I really enjoyed that. VW: Is that ok? CB: Absolutely fascinating. VW: You can edit. Edit it. CB: They will but the fact is that they will be letting you have a cd. Listen to it and if you want to alter anything you can let them know. VW: Yeah. CB: But eventually they will edit it. Initially they will copy it. VW: Well I shan’t bother. CB: Now, you may remember what I said to you was it would be helpful if we’d any supporting stuff. That picture. PW: The photograph that’s up there. Just on the end. CB: That would be really good if we could borrow that. Yes. Have you got your wedding picture handy? PW: No. We haven’t at the moment. VW: No. We can’t find it. CB: If that can come later. PW: No. Dad hasn’t got it. PW: I will find the pictures for you. CB: Will you? PW: And I will sort this one out as well. CB: So there’s just one other form then which is to say that you’re happy. You authorise them to donate a copy of the picture and let you have the thing back. VW: Yeah. That will be alright. CB: Ok. How did you come to settle in Fiskerton? You were never stationed here. VW: That’s another story in itself. We were, Phil got demobbed from. PW: Waddington. VW: Waddington. CB: Yeah. VW: And settled here in Metheringham and we used to come up on weekends for a weekend like that and we liked it up here. CB: Yeah. VW: And — Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Vivian David Williams Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Chris Brockbank Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AWilliamsVD170403 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Description An account of the resource Vivian joined the Royal Air Force in July 1938 as a flight mechanic and served for seven and a half years. After square drills at RAF Uxbridge and a course at RAF Manston, he did a basic engineering course at RAF Henlow. After six months at RAF St Athan, working on Bristol Pegasus and Rolls Royce Kestrel engines, Vivian was posted to 56 Squadron at RAF North Weald on Hurricanes and their Merlin engines. He spent six months at RAF Martlesham Heath before doing a conversion course to be a fitter at RAF Hednesford and RAF Cosford. Vivian was posted to the School of General Reconnaissance on Guernsey and Thorney Island before going to RAF Hooton Park and Blackpool, followed by No. Three Flying Training School at South Cerney. After two years, Vivian went to No. 17 Advanced Flying Unit at RAF Watton, where he changed engines on Masters. He went on to RAF Calveley, RAF Spitalgate and RAF Hixon before going to Transport Command at RAF Lyneham. Vivian was demobbed in January 1946. After the war, he worked for a year on Five Maintenance Unit at RAF Kemble. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Sally Coulter Maureen Clarke Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Fighter Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Bedfordshire England--Cheshire England--Cornwall (County) England--Essex England--Gloucestershire England--Kent England--Lancashire England--Blackpool England--Lincolnshire England--Norfolk England--Shropshire England--Staffordshire England--Suffolk England--Wiltshire Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Guernsey Great Britain Miscellaneous Island Dependencies--Channel Islands Wales--Vale of Glamorgan Atlantic Ocean--English Channel Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1938-07 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:20:43 audio recording Advanced Flying Unit fitter engine Flying Training School ground crew ground personnel home front Hurricane Lancaster mechanics engine military service conditions RAF Calveley RAF Cosford RAF Grantham RAF Hednesford RAF Henlow RAF Hixon RAF Hooton Park RAF Kemble RAF Lyneham RAF Manston RAF Martlesham Heath RAF North Weald RAF South Cerney RAF St Athan RAF Thorney Island RAF Uxbridge RAF Watton searchlight training York https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1222/12028/PSpencerGC1901.1.jpg 8083fea68b27ab2d47336859883af7a0 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1222/12028/ASpencerGC190123.1.mp3 836491e6db78df25fa3408cce2d0955e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Spencer, Geoffrey Charles G C Spencer Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Leading aircraftsman Geoffrey Spencer (b.1925, 1735606 Royal Air Force). He served as a flight mechanic and fitter with 49 Squadron at RAF Fiskerton and 189 Squadron at RAF Fulbeck. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-01-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Spencer, GC Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document HB: This is an interview for International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive between Harry Bartlett and Geoffrey Charles, GS: Spencer. HB: Spencer. We’re at Sutton Coldfield. It’s the 23rd of January 2019. Right Geoff, the floor’s yours, so I understand you come from this sort of area anyway, before the war. GB: Well I were born in Birmingham and I lived in Erdington before I moved to Sutton Coalfield. HB: Right. GS: But I joined the RAF from when I lived in Erdington and the first place I went to was Cardington for eight weeks’ square bashing and then they moved me to Cosford, RAF Cosford and I did a flight mechanic’s course. HB: You know before you joined, did you actually go to school in Erdington? GS: Oh yeah, when I was in Erdington, from when I was fifteen, I joined the Air Training Corps and I did three years with the Air Training Corp prior to going in to the RAF. HB: So did you get called up or did you volunteer? GS: I volunteered. HB: Why did you volunteer? GS: I don’t know, because they called me, one day after me eighteenth birthday, which I thought was a bit naughty! But that’s it, they sent me there. But anyway - HB: Sorry, where was your ATC unit? GS: At Dunlop, Erdington, Dunlop, the big Dunlop factory there, which is still there, part of it and we did all our Air Training Corp training which was a Sunday parade and whatever we did in the week, taking exams and things to get what they call PNB status which was pilot, bomb aimer and bomb aimer and you had to take various exams to pass that exam and you were given a proficiency badge then, when you’ve acquired that, and then you had to wait around and we went to various squadrons, RAF squadrons, Swinderby was one, you know Swinderby, don’t you. HB: I do, I do. GS: And we also, oh where else, oh, Fradley, RAF Fradley. HB: Don’t know Fradley, no. GS: Litchfield. HB: Oh right! GS: 27 OTU that was. I went to that one. HB: Ah, right! So when you did the ATC training, did you get to fly? GS: Yes, we did fly. Actually we flew from, in Wellington Bombers when we were at Fradley, time expired Wellington bombers, the wings flapped, they were terrible things, and we went up without chutes. we used to just go down to the airfield at night and cadge flights. And then after that I flew a lot when I was on the squadron at Fiskerton, and I also flew in York aircraft. When, when we flew out to, to Singapore, we flew out by York aircraft from Lyneham, which is still going apparently, but it took five days. HB: Yeah, I can imagine. So you did your ATC training, you got called up, what were mum and dad doing at the time? GS: My father was a toolmaker and I worked for him as an apprentice. HB: Ah right. Had he got his own business? GS: He’d got his own business, yeah. Not a very big business, but it was a business, then in 1950 he sold it all and moved down to Cornwall, farming. HB: So your mum and dad are there, you’ve been called up a day after your eighteenth birthday. Nicola: He’d volunteered to go. Wasn’t called up. GS: I volunteered for the RAF, yes. I’ve got a sister but she was in the ATS. HB: Right. Is she older than you, is she older than you? GS: Yes, three years older than me. HB: That would explain it. So you go and report, and they say here’s your travel warrant. GS: Yep, I volunteered at Dale End in Birmingham, right in the centre, that’s it. Then, I say, went to Cardington, eight weeks square bashing and then I went to Cosford and did a flight mechanics course. I don’t know whether you know, but in the RAF there were five trades starting with Group One which was the expert and Group Two which my lot, flight mechanics. Three, four and five you finished up with the bog cleaners, you know, yeah, that was group five, they didn’t do anything. Well from Cosford I went to Fiskerton, 49 Squadron. And I was put into the hangars there servicing the Lancasters, I did a fifty hour service. And from there I was sent out on the flights, B Flight I was on, servicing the Lancasters before they flew on ops. You’re okay, getting all this down are you? HB: Yep, it’s, I just have to keep an eye on the batteries, that’s all, Geoff. GS: At Fiskerton. And I used to fly there, used to fly at night time. You had to sign a form, Form 700, to say that you’d serviced the aircraft and you were satisfied. And the pilots invariably said have you signed the 700, yes I have to, said right go and get a parachute, you’re flying with me, if you’ve serviced the aircraft, I want to make quite sure. HB: His guarantee then! GS: That was the guarantee. I used to fly that was it. Anyway I used to watch them go out every night. Count how many came back and there was always a few missing. HB: How did you feel about that? GS: Not very happy. And then, from Fiskerton, they had FIDO. Do you remember that? You remember FIDO? HB: Well, I remember it, but some people don’t, what was FIDO. GS: FIDO was two pipelines joining along the runway which they set alight, which cleared the fog. Nicola: With fuel dad, was it? Did it, was it fuel? GS: Hundred octane fuel they used, I don’t know how many thousand gallons every time. One time we went to nearby Waddington, you know that don’t you, doing engine change on a Lancaster and then the pilot said well I’m on ops tomorrow so I’ll fly you back, and during the time from Waddington to Fiskerton, which was only about ten mile, the fog came down and the pilot said - he phoned down the ops tower - and they said well we’ll light FIDO for you, which they did. But the thing is when the fog clears it creates a heat haze, and the pilot said it’s gonna be a bumpy landing. HB: Oh no! GS: So we made the approach and he said the alternative, he said, I shall have to crash land it. And the sergeant that was with me at the time, he said, if you do that, we’ve just done an engine change, he said you’ll have to change the bloody lot! [Laughter] Which was quite true. Anyway, he made a very bumpy landing, the brakes failed, so we turned off the runway at about fifty mile an hour and he says hold on we might not be able to stop, but he stopped right in front of the watch tower. And at that time, back at Fiskerton the squadron split up. 49 Squadron went to Syerston, you know Syerston, and 189 Squadron which I was seconded to went to Fulbeck, which was south of Waddington. That’s where you’ve got that bit mixed up I think. [Sounds of paper rustling] HB: And that was with 189 Squadron. GS: Yeah. Who were also at Bardney. HB: Yeah, that’s sort of, answered that sort of little hiccup there. GS: Well from there they sent me on a Fitter One course at Henlow, which puts it in the right order. HB: I’m just interested in that Geoff. When you went to RAF Cosford, they would train you as a flight mechanic on all the various engines, the Merlins, the Hercules, you know, all those engines. So when you actually got posted out, you were working on, what sort of engines were you working on then, with the Lancs? GS: Merlins. HB: You were working on the Merlins. GS: Merlin 20s. HB: So what was the difference between doing your training as a flight mechanic and your training as a fitter? GS: I don’t know, it was just more sophisticated, more intricate details on the Merlin engine. For instance, I can remember doing a block change on the Merlin engine, which if you’d been a flight mechanic was unheard of. We were in, one of the aircraft came into the main hangar and we did a, and a V12, and we did a block change, which is quite intricate. HB: So the block is the bit where the pistons go up and down. GS: That’s right, that’s it, six on each, which was quite a big job doing that. Which we managed okay and that’s when after Fulbeck they sent me to Henlow on that Fitter One’s course. Where did I go from there? HB: Did you have, obviously you passed the course. GS: Yeah, I did, I passed with honours on that actually, I did quite well. HB: Did you get promoted and more money? GS: I got promoted; I got my props. I was an LAC, so I was quite chuffed with that. And then I went to Holmsley South, now that’s a place in the New Forest, right down the south. I was only there a month, then I went to Duxford for about a month, which was on Spitfires. HB: Was this all the while working on the engines? GS: Yes. HB: For just like a month. GS: I was a Group one Tradesman then see, I was more useful to them. And then, now where did I go, oh, I went to a place called Hinton in the Hedges which is in Oxfordshire. And when I go there - no aircraft - and the whole airfield was full of airc – of lorries and all the maintenance stuff and what they were doing, they were, all the airfield’s completely covered in all sorts of lorries and all sorts, aircraft carriers and all this sort of business and they’d bring them round into the main hangar, which was still there, service them and put them out back into the airfield and eventually they were dispersed to the place that they wanted them. But, I was wasting my time there, of course. HB: I was going to say what were they using you for then Geoff? GS: Well they were using me for, to going out on my bicycle to any of the lorries that were, various types of lorries, bring them into hangars, spray them, blokes spraying, and going out again. HB: Group One tradesman doing that. GS: I was a Group One tradesman. HB: Just slightly moving that cause it’s just making a bit of a noise. GS: That’s better. Absolutely fine. Yes. HB: I’m just. So you’re only there a short time then, I presume. GS: Yep, and then from there, I went to Lyneham and they posted me out to Singapore. HB: How much, how much notice did you get of that? GS: Well I don’t know really, I never took time of notice. HB: So what year do you think that was about? GS: That was late ’44, because, or late, that’s right, because at that time I as posted out there, went to Lyneham, they dropped the bomb; the atomic bomb. HB: So that would be ‘45 then. GS:’ 45. That’s it, that’s it. They dropped the bomb and I flew out to Singapore. HB: Just take you back to you know, Cosford, Fiskerton and all them. What sort of leave did you get? GS: Well the usual leave thirty six hour pass, forty eight hour leave. I think I had exp, expo leave before I flew out to Singapore. I think I had fourteen days. HB: Expo? GS: Yeah. What do they call it? HB: Debark? De, Debarkation? GS: Embarkation! HB: Embarkation leave. Oh right. So what did you do with your leave, did you come home? GS: Oh yeah. HB: Came home. You go to the local dance hall. GS: Local dance hall and all that. HB: In your uniform. GS: I met my wife there, at the local masonic, you know. I had an incident when I were flying out to Singapore. There were two York aircraft went out and there were twenty blokes in each aircraft and we knew each other, forty odd blokes, and we tossed up which aircraft we’d go in. We went to Malta, Habbaniya, what’s, I forget the one in northern India, and then Calcutta. Dumdum, Dumdum airfield, and I elected to go on the first aircraft, on the York that was going to Singapore and the second aircraft didn’t get there: it flew into the Indian Ocean. So that was why, sheer luck, is why I’m still here. And then I did twelve months in Singapore. I had to remuster again then because they didn’t want aircraft fitters then, so I had to remuster as a Fitter Marine and I was on high speed launches wandering around the East Indies, which was quite a good time. HB: So you went from Lyneham, you flew down through Malta, Middle East, into, GS: Singapore. HB: The northern India one and then Singapore. You’re based at Singapore. So you were in what, were you in tents or in quarters? GS: In quarters, I’ve got some pictures of them actually. We were initially sent out, when we’d gone from Lyneham they told me I was on what they called Tiger Force, which was going to Okinawa which was the nearest point for bombing Tokyo, but because I was in Singapore I didn’t want that because the war had finished with Japan then. HB: So they just literally took you off aircraft fitting and said - GS: Fitter marine! HB: Fitter marine. That’s, what was the big difference with the engines then? GS: Phew, terrible. There were three Peregrine engines inside the high speed launches, one either side and one at the back of you and it was a hundred and forty degrees in there, so you could only spend ten minutes at a time. When they were going at full throttle, which was thirty knots, you hadn’t got much chance, so you had to come up after ten minutes. It was horrible. Nicola: What about it, do you remember when you fell in the water dad. HB: You went overboard did you? Nicola: You were on, someone backed in to you. Go on. GS: Well what happened, I was on the quayside, there was a drop in the water of about thirty foot. Some western oriental gentleman I called them, didn’t call them that, backing a lorry up to me he must have seen me, I was looking out to sea and the next minute [slap sound] it hit me and I was in the sea and fortunately there was an officer standing there and he galloped down into the water and dragged me out. Cause it was only about eighteen inches of water. HB: You were lucky. GS: It knocked me out virtually. I came round and he said you had a bit of luck there, didn’t you airman. I said yeah, did, I’m glad you got me out. He said look down there, you see all those snakes, he said, they’re all bloody poisonous. [Chuckle] So, sick quarters, and I was okay. Nicola: You never saw the guy, did you from the truck. GS: No, the bloke took off, never saw him again. Nicola: He knew he was in trouble, didn’t he. HB: So you’re working round, all round Singapore, so you must have had a few trips out to the islands. GS: Oh yes. Up into Malaya, Penang and Java, Sumatra of course they’ve all changed their names now, haven’t they. So I had twelve months. When I was demobbed, they, I came back by sea. I had to go to a transit camp in Malaya and then came back by sea and it took a month! [Paper shuffling] Nicola: A month’s cruise then. GS: I came back on that! HB: So that’s the, I’ve done it again, I’ve take them off. GS: Can you spell that? HB: The Johan van Barneveld. GS: That’s it. HB: Looks like bit like an ocean going cruise ship, doesn’t it! GS: It was only about sixteen thousand ton! HB: Oh, small! Nicola: Dad, didn’t you see one of the little boats that you’d serviced, didn’t you see somewhere recently. GS: Oh yes, I went to Henlow, you know, to the museum there. As you went in, to go in to the museum, on the front was an air sea rescue and the actual [emphasis] one that I sailed in when I was at Singapore. HB: The same boat? GS: The same boat, same number: 2528. Nicola: You didn’t tell them though did you. GS: No. I knew. HB: Wow! That’s, so there was a group of you there, you obviously got on well, you know, and so you’d have had to take your leave while you were in Singapore, if you had leave. GS: I don’t think we did. I was at Seletar, in Singapore. There’s the - HB: Of course it’s got the flying boats, hasn’t it. GS: Oh yes. There was a Sunderland. That’s a high speed launch, those sort of things. HB: So these, this photograph album, we’re going to need to copy all this. GS: Are you? HB: There’s one you’d broken. GS: Yeah, that’s a spit that crash landed. There I am again. HB: Yes. We’re going to need to copy these I think, Geoff. GS: These are the - HB: They are the quarters. GS: They are the quarters. The Japs had them before we, after, before we got there, first thing they do took all the doors off the bogs so you had no privacy at all. [Laugh] HB: Ah, right. So, we’ve got you to Singapore, you’ve been on your high speed launches, I think what we’ll do, we’ll just have two minutes pause, right, in the interview, just while get our breath back and then we’ll come back to them. Right, we’ve switched back on, we’ve had a little bit of a break and Nicola, Geoff’s daughter’s just gone off to work, so we’ll just recommence the interview and so we’ve got to the demob in Singapore and all that business, but can we just take you back, back to your airfields, because at one point you did something a bit. GS: When I was at Fulbeck, we moved from Fiskerton to Fulbeck and I was on duty crew and we had a Stirling bomber come in to be refuelled, and me, being completely new to Stirling bombers, went up in the cockpit, turned the fuel line which I thought was the one, an elephant’s trunk came down and deposit about a hundred gallon of fuel on to the tarmac. [Sigh] And we had a bomb happy, as we used to call them, flak happy, sergeant flight engineer, saw what I’d done, he came up, he said don’t worry about it, so I shoved this fuel line back up into the aircraft and screwed the cock on. I said what about all the fuel on the deck and he said don’t worry about it, so he started the engine up, which in itself was bad enough, it blew the fuel away cause we were way [emphasis] out on dispersal, miles from anywhere you could say, but when Stirling bombers with Hercules engines start up, flames come out, and if it, that bloody aircraft had gone up in bloody flames, so would I! HB: Blimey! You’d have still been paying for it! Good grief Geoff! GS: We were on dispersal which was about as far side of the airfield from the Headquarters from about a mile and a half away, this was near Newark, Fulbeck is quite near Newark, and that’s what happened and that was an incident. I told my daughter about it and she was amazed, and I got away with it. HB: You must have had a few close shaves though. GS: Oh yeah, I did. Flying the aircraft, we did land with one Lancaster, when we were, where were we? I think it was at Fiskerton, and the undercart folded up and it broke the Lanc up actually, broke the imagine what it did to the props and that. HB: Was that landing on the main runway or did you get on the grass? GS: On the main runway, we were going along the runway and the undercart, hydraulics, it just collapsed, and that was dead dodgy. I remember that., but apart from that. HB: So where would you have been, when that happened, in the Lanc, where would you have been sat? GS: Usually on the flight engineer’s place because, usually, the flight engineer nearly always went with the pilot on, what do they call it? Air test or fighter affiliation and [cough] that’s when that happened, the undercart folded up, just the one wheel. It did a lot of damage. Props of course went on the port side and that was it. HB: You got away with that one as well. GS: I got away with that one as well. But then, from that one as well. And then from then on I made sure I picked the time I went, flew, went on the air test. [Chuckle] HB: Why was that? GS: I was getting scared to be quite honest. Yeah. There was another incident we had, I’ve forgotten what it was now. Something to do with Lancasters, but normally was a wonderful aircraft, you know. We had several crews that did a full tour of ops at Fiskerton. HB: Yeah. Did you, when you were at Fiskerton, did you always maintain the same aircraft or was it just parade in the morning and get one allocated? GS: When I was servicing them in the hangar, which was called the maintenance hangar. Different aircraft came in to be serviced. Fifty hour service, hundred hour service, hundred and fifty and then a major, major, but when I was on the flight, when you’re on the B Flight, which I went out on, I had to do the flight and, and sign the Form 700 which was meant that you, they didn’t all [emphasis] say you come, you can come fly with me, that was preservation by the pilot, if I’m going to die you’re going to die with me sort of business! HB: Good incentive to keep you up to speed. GS: Up to scratch. Cause I can remember quite well, I serviced one Lancaster, I remember it even now, I was on the port engine which you had to get a, you had a big service ladder to get up to it, and I had to fill it, the Lancaster engine got an oil at the back, thirty six gallon, and I went up to check the height of it, put the cap on as I thought and came down, thought nothing of it. And then the regular B Flight mechanic, he said, “everything all right?” I said yeah, he said, “I put that filler cap on properly for you.” HB: Ooh. GS: And there’s another incident. I thanked him profusely, I obviously hadn’t locked it properly. HB: Oh wow! GS: That could have been trouble. If he’d gone up, flight, and the filler cap had come off - HB: Difficult. GS: And I didn’t go on flight affiliation as they called it. They’d have a Lanc going up on air test and they’d have a Spitfire or Hurricane doing aerobatics, simulating getting at the rear gunner. Well I went, I only went up once on that because for the only time, I was sick, sick as a dog and I thought bugger flight affiliation from now on! HB: So fighter affiliation wasn’t one of your favourites! GS: No it wasn’t! HB: So this is when they practiced doing, did they call it corkscrew? GS: That’s right. HB: And you were in there when they did that. GS: I was in the back, I was in the rear turret at the time. It was horrible. HB: Right, so we’ve gone through, we’ve gone through the squadrons and you’ve gone to Singapore and you’re going to be demobbed and they’ve put you on the troop ship, in Malaya, how long did it take you to get home? GS: One month. I can remember it ever so well. We went from Singapore to Ceylon as it was then, I’ve forgotten the name of the town, and from then on we flew, we sailed from Ceylon up the Red Sea to Port Said and then across the Med and it was four weeks, and of course all the, everybody’s being demobbed on board that ship, so I can’t remember any details. HB: Was it, so it wasn’t like one big long, month long party then? GS: Oh no, oh no. I slept on deck, everybody else was, well most of them, slept in hammocks. And I couldn’t get on in a hammock, so I slept on deck and that was it and I went to East Kirkby and was demobbed. HB: So you landed back in England. GS: Southampton. HB: At Southampton, bunged you on a train. GS: Train. Up to East Kirkby. Demobbed and I was a civilian. HB: Did you get your suit? GS: Yes. Got me suit, and a yellow tie. [Laugh] I remember that ever so well. HB: Were you still a single man at this time, Geoff? GS: Yes, oh yes. I was twenty one going on twenty two. HB: But you’d met your wife before you went out to Singapore. Sorry, what was your wife called? GS: Hazel. HB: Hazel, right. So you met Hazel when you were in your uniform looking smart in the dance hall. So you’d obviously been writing, in the force. GS: Yes. I was running two women at the time! [Laugh] HB: Were you! Were you now! GS: I got rid of the one. HB: Ah right. Was that, that was another one back here was it? GS: Yeah. They were both back here. I remember I had the two photographs on the side of me bed, on the side of me billet in Singapore, and I used to say to the bloke which do you think’s the best out of those two and they always pointed to Hazel, she’s the homely type they used to say. HB: Oooh! GS: And that was it, I married her. We were married sixty three years. HB: That’s good. GS: Good going isn’t it. HB: It is, it is. So you came back to East Kirkby, you’ve been demobbed, back home to? GS: Back with my father in engineering. HB: Yep. That’s still in Erdington. GS: Yeah, and then, that’s right, my dad sold his business moved down to Falmouth as a farmer which didn’t work out: you’ve got to be born into farming and he did ten years before he came back north again. HB: So what did you do. I mean he went down there in 1950 did he, did you say? GS: Yes. HB: You’d stayed in till 47, hadn’t you? GS: Yes. HB: So, once he went down there what did you do, did you? GS: I went. We’d got another, one of dad’s younger [emphasis] brothers, he was in the shoe trade, and I had the option then and I went into the shoe trade for three years. It wasn’t very pleasant because he wasn’t a very pleasant man to work for, so I stayed with him for three years then I went back into toolmaking. I worked for Cincinnati, the big American company, making milling machines and all that. HB: You obviously enjoyed that. GS: Yeah. Better it was, yeah. HB: And that was you till, what, through to retirement I suppose. GS: Yes, I suppose it was. No! I stayed in the tool making trade, I worked for a company just down there on the estate for twenty seven years. HB: Wow! GS: Tool making. HB: So out of your, you know, I mean it was a difficult time, I mean the war had been running for three, nearly four years when you went in, when you actually got called up, and you’re living in Birmingham which was a big target. GS: Oh, it was! HB: So what was it, what, before you joined the RAF what it like living under this threat, really? GS: Before I went into the RAF, well Birmingham was bombed quite badly, like Coventry. If they missed Coventry it was Birmingham, because all the car industry as you know, is in this area and we were a real target because at that time dad worked for Castle Bromwich Aircraft Factory, which is just down there, making Spitfires, building Spitfires and he worked in the tool room there before he started on his own. That was quite a job. HB: So where you were living at Erdington, I mean they had bombing in that area, didn’t they. GS: Oh yes, quite a bit of bombing yeah. We were actually, there was only bombs locally, but none actually where I lived in Hollandy Road, there wan’t much. You’re going back seventy years now you know. HB: That’s right. GS: Trying to remember all these things. HB: Yeah, I mean mum and dad obviously, you know, you’ve got your sister, yourself, you know, there’d be that worry wouldn’t there. What did you do in the evening? Did you ever do fire watching or anything like that? GS: Yeah. When I was fourteen, when I left school, I was fire watching in the centre of Birmingham. I’d got a job, just a normal job in the, in tool making, er in the shoe industry and they got me fire watching. They gave me a stirrup pump and a bucket of water and go up on the top floor of this building and if they drop incendiaries: put ‘em out. Fourteen years old. HB: Good grief! GS: I remember that quite clearly. HB: Did you leave school, cause obviously you’re at work then, at fourteen, did you leave school with any certificates? GS: No, I didn’t get School Certificate. I left, I elected not to go to secondary school, which was from fourteen to sixteen, so I left at fourteen from the ordinary council school. I lived at Yardley then, on the south side of Birmingham. HB: Right, right. Of all your time in the RAF, in Bomber Command Geoff, what do you think was your best time, what was your best bit of being in the RAF? GS: Well, the activity when I was at Fiskerton. Oh yes, definitely. The fitter’s courses and flight mechanics courses was a chore. Just hard work it was really, but when I get, when I was at Fiskerton and also Fulbeck, and Waddington, which I was there. Waddington was the place to get to because it was an peace, it was an established squadron none of this nissen hut business or anything of that, and that was the place to go. But I wasn’t there long enough to appreciate it. It’s still there, isn’t it. I noticed that when I went to – yeah. HB: So what, we’ve said that was something you enjoyed, was being busy, and you’ve got all your mates and whatnot, so what did you do, when you weren’t on leave, what did you do for entertainment when you were on the squadron? GS: We used to go to the camp cinema and, thing I noticed mostly [emphasis] about the camp cinema, you went in there and you couldn’t see the screen for the smoke, cause everybody smoked at that time and I didn’t smoke and me eyes come out and they were watering permanently after that. HB: Oh right. So that moves us on. What was, what do you think was the worst bit of your service? GS: When I was at Holmesly South in the New Forest it was my twenty first birthday and I wanted a forty eight hour pass because me wife, me mother had got a big party organised for me. So I went to the SWO, Station Warrant Officer, and asked for a forty hour pass and he refused it. And I remember then I thought, when I get back into civvie street I’ll have you. [Laugh] Never did of course, but I remember it ever so well. He refused me a forty eight hour pass. He knew what it was for but didn’t show any compassion whatsoever. HB: And what did you think after the war, when the war ended, what did you think the sort of feeling was about Bomber Command? GS: [Sigh] Well, they lost so many men, in ’42 onwards to the, till D-Day, fifty five thousand men were killed, weren’t they. I, I thought that was absolutely terrible. All the aircrew, I got to knew them, when I was at Fiskerton, by name and they’d go on ops and didn’t come back. It was a horrible feeling all the while. Because at the time, when I was, now where was I, oh yes, at the end of my fitter’s course, yeah, you fixed for time, at, on the fitter’s course at Hen, Hendon, that’s right, near Bedford it is. HB: Halford? GS: Henlow, not Hendon, Henlow, near Bedford. I applied to go on a flight engineer’s course, which was accepted, at St Athan. I was posted and I got there: what have you come for? I said I’ve come to do an FE’s course. They said we don’t want any more, so they sent me back. Which was just as well because if I’d have done a flight engineer’s course, I’d have been there and gone on ops, I wouldn’t be here now, would I? There were so many casualties. I can remember one time we lost ninety eight aircraft one night, on ops. Lancasters, mostly. HB: Hmm. That’s a lot of men. GS: Well Lancaster aircraft, they’d only got, they’d got four guns in the rear turret, two on the upper turret and two in the front, but they were pathetic compared with German aircraft which had got canons. Twice the fire power. So that was the thing about Lancasters. But apart from that they had the biggest bombload, they could fly at twenty two thousand feet and none of the others couldn’t. If you had a relative that was on Halifaxes, they weren’t a patch on Lancasters, during the war. And Stirlings, they were a joke they were. The rear gunner in a Stirling his expectation of life was about a fortnight. [Whistle] It was awful, wasn’t it. HB: Hmm. Yeah. So the, when, did you ever do any sort of like Cook’s Tours when you came back? You did? GS: Yes, I did the one, over Germany. It was a revelation that was. When you flew at about ten thousand feet, something like that, and the debris, there was nothing left, of any of the towns. We didn’t fly over Berlin, but we did all the other ones. HB: How did you feel about that? GS: Terrible. You know, you thought why was this, all this necessary? That’s the way you looked at it, you know, because Nazis were the pigs, but an ordinary German, he was just another bloke to me. And that’s the way I feel about that. HB: Difficult. GS: Was difficult wan’t there. Is there anything I’ve missed on this? HB: I was going to say do you want to have a look at your list Geoff, is there, see if we’ve covered what you want to talk about. GS: [Pause] Karachi was the place I went to in India, on the west coast and then Calcutta on the east coast. Yes. I enjoyed me time when I was in the Air Training Corps 1940 to ’43. Fradley, Cosford. I did a week at Cosford in the Air Training Corps. Swinderby and Bovington. Bovington were, I’ve forgotten what aircraft they were. Twin engined, and I know that you had to wind the undercart up, ninety eight turns, I remember that because they hadn’t got hydraulic, retracting. Hinton in the Hedges was the place that really was a waste of time, with all those aircraft, all those, all those lorries and things. I can remember once, I had to go out on dispersal to bring, bring a lorry in for servicing and I got in it and started it up. I noticed it was in front wheel drive, so I moved out and it dropped on the deck – there was no back wheels on it! [laughter] I just got out and left it. So that’s another place I’d have, could have been a naughty boy! [cough] HB: Perhaps you were as well you didn’t stay there that long! GS: It was. Only there about a month. I got promotion while I was there. I remember ever so well. The sergeant, I was after me props, I’d got me one and I was after me LAC, and he asked a question. He said, “What do you know about errors of articulation?” Tell you, I remember this, and I said yes it was there, the Hercules, aircraft where the con rods were in a different position every stroke of the engine. “Good,” he said,” you’ve got that.” And that got me me props. HB: Did it? GS: Yes! HB: So that made you a Leading Aircraftsman. GS: Group One Leading Aircraftsman, which was quite good. But I should have got me tapes when I was doing the flight engineer’s course. But that was it. HB: Well I think, it’s quarter past twelve, and I think we’ve sort of come to bit of a natural conclusion Geoff. GS: Yes. HB: So, I’m going to terminate the interview now while we just sort your photographs out and how we’re gonna handle them. I want to thank you, honestly, it’s been a really [emphasis] enjoyable interview. You said to me in the break, oh we’ve been all over the place. It doesn’t matter. GS: It’s very disjointed. HB: What you’ve told us is important, and it’s also interesting. And we’ll forget quietly about pushing the wrong button for the fuel for the Stirling! So thank you very much. GS: Well, I wonder about that flight engineer, he was flak happy as they called it during the war. And the fact that we got away with it, I said to him afterwards, I said, what about if, we’d have had flames out the Hercules, we must have had some, but didn’t see them, well that would have been curtains, I said bloody will and I’ll have been with you! HB: Oh dear! Right, well thanks ever so much Geoff. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Geoffrey Charles Spencer Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harry Bartlett Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-01-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ASpencerGC190123, PSpencerGC1901 Description An account of the resource Geoffrey Spencer grew up in Birmingham and worked with his father in tool making, carrying out fire watching as a youngster. He joined the Air Force in August 1943, aged 18. After training, he served as a flight mechanic and fitter with 49 Squadron at RAF Fiskerton and 189 Squadron at RAF Fulbeck. He worked in the maintenance hangar and on the flights, and describes a crash landing in a Lancaster after an air test, as well as an accident while refuelling a Stirling. He was posted to Singapore in 1945, where he serviced engines on high-speed launches. He was de-mobbed in July 1947 and, after the war, worked in the tool making industry in the UK until he retired. Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Singapore England--Bedfordshire England--Birmingham England--Lincolnshire England--Shropshire England--Warwickshire Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944 1945 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:53:04 audio recording Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Anne-Marie Watson Maureen Clarke 189 Squadron 49 Squadron bombing civil defence Cook’s tour crash demobilisation entertainment FIDO fitter engine flight mechanic fuelling ground crew ground personnel home front Lancaster love and romance RAF Cardington RAF Cosford RAF East Kirkby RAF Fiskerton RAF Fulbeck RAF Henlow RAF Swinderby Spitfire Stirling training York https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/656/15058/LWilsonJ1486634v1.2.pdf 0e9b78e07dd37d9a2ee74a5919353528 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Wilson, Joseph J Wilson Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Wilson, J Description An account of the resource Four items. An oral history interview with Flying Officer Joseph Wilson (1923 - 2019), 1486434 Royal Air Force), his log book, identity card and a photograph. He flew operations as a bomb aimer with 102 and 76 Squadrons before being posted to 624 Special Duties Squadron where he dropped supplies and agents to the resistance in Southern Europe. The collection has been donated to the IBCC Digital Archive by Jenny Wilson and catalogued by Barry Hunter. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-12-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Joseph Wilson's observer's and air gunner's flying log book Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Great Britain. Royal Air Force Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mike Connock Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One booklet Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Log book and record book Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LWilsonJ1486634v1 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Algeria Bosnia and Herzegovina Croatia France Germany Great Britain Greece Italy Libya South Africa Bosnia and Herzegovina--Sarajevo Croatia--Split England--Bedfordshire England--Yorkshire France--Corsica France--Marseille France--Montbéliard France--Toulon Germany--Cologne Germany--Essen Germany--Gelsenkirchen Germany--Krefeld Germany--Mülheim an der Ruhr Germany--Munich Germany--Nuremberg Germany--Remscheid Germany--Stuttgart Germany--Wuppertal Greece--Thessalonikē Italy--Brindisi Libya--Tūkrah Scotland--Moray South Africa--Cape Town Tunisia--Sidi Ameur Wales--Gwynedd North Africa Tunisia Germany--Ruhr (Region) Bulgaria--Sofia Bulgaria France--Montbéliard Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942 1943 1944 1945 1943-03-03 1943-03-05 1943-03-06 1943-03-08 1943-03-09 1943-03-10 1943-03-11 1943-03-12 1943-04-03 1943-04-04 1943-06-21 1943-06-22 1943-06-23 1943-06-24 1943-06-25 1943-06-26 1943-06-28 1943-06-29 1943-07-04 1943-07-05 1943-07-09 1943-07-10 1943-07-15 1943-07-16 1943-07-30 1943-07-31 1943-09-17 1943-09-18 1943-09-23 1943-09-24 1943-10-18 1943-10-19 1943-10-20 1943-10-21 1943-10-22 1943-10-23 1943-10-24 1943-11-03 1943-11-04 1943-11-12 1943-11-13 1943-11-16 1943-11-17 1943-12-03 1943-12-04 1943-12-05 1943-12-06 1943-12-10 1943-12-11 1943-12-16 1943-12-17 1943-12-20 1943-12-21 1944-01-08 1944-01-10 1944-01-11 1944-01-12 1944-01-13 1944-01-14 1944-01-19 1944-01-20 1944-01-22 1944-01-23 1944-01-28 1944-01-29 1944-01-30 1944-01-31 1944-02-13 1944-02-14 1944-03-05 1944-03-06 1944-03-07 1944-03-08 1944-03-10 1944-03-11 Description An account of the resource Observer's and air gunner's flying log book for J Wilson, covering the period from 12 July 1942 to 26 March 1945. Detailing his flying training, Operations flown and instructor duties. He was stationed at RAF Penrhos, RAF Lossiemouth, RAF Pocklington, RAF Rufforth, RAF Linton-on-Ouse, RAF Holme-on-Spalding-Moor, RAF Tempsford, RAF Blida, RAF Sidi Amor, RAF Tocra, RAF Brindisi, RSAAF Youngs Field and RSAAF East London. Aircraft flown in were, Blenheim, Anson, Wellington, Halifax, C-47 and Oxford. He flew 6 night operations with 102 squadron, 9 night operations with 76 squadron and 32 night operations with 624 special duties squadron. Targets were Essen, Nurnberg, Munich, Stuttgart, Krefeld, Mulheim, Wuppertal, Gelsenkirchen, Cologne, Montbéliard, Remscheid, Corsica, Sarajevo, Split, Sofia, Salonika, Marseilles and Toulon. His pilots on operations were Sergeant Giffiths, Sergeant Heaton and Flight Sergeant Povey. Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Review Oct 2024 102 Squadron 1652 HCU 1663 HCU 20 OTU 624 Squadron 76 Squadron Advanced Flying Unit Air Observers School aircrew Anson Blenheim bomb aimer bombing C-47 Halifax Heavy Conversion Unit Me 109 mine laying Operational Training Unit Oxford RAF Blida RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor RAF Linton on Ouse RAF Lossiemouth RAF Penrhos RAF Pocklington RAF Rufforth RAF Tempsford Ruhr Campaign (5 March – 10 July 1943) training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/976/16154/LManningR52870v1.pdf 247348241574f6d9c13acee159d9d84f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book Description An account of the resource The Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book covering the period 15 June 1941 to the 16 August 1963. Manning qualified first as an Air Gunner on the 4 July 1941 and second as a flight engineer on the 1 September 1941. He was commissioned on the 4 July 1943 as a Pilot Officer and promoted to acting Flight Lieutenant in April 1944, and again to acting Squadron Leader in March 1946. He reverted to Flight Lieutenant in April 1947 but was made substantive Squadron Leader in April 1956 in the Engineering Branch. He retired 16 August 1963. There are very few entries relating to his time as a Gunner. Most entries are as Engineer. He was stationed at RAF Stormy Down; RAF Middleton St George; RAF Linton-on-Ouse; RAF Leeming, RAF Aqir, RAF Fayid, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Snaith, RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Finingley, RAF Scampton, RAF Binbrook, RAF Henlow, RAF Seletar, RAF LLandow, RAF Swaton Morley, and RAF Medmenham. He flew in the following types manly as Engineer ; Arvo Tutor, Armstrong Whitworth Ensign, Handley Page Hannibal, Hawker Hart, Handley Page Heyford, Douglas DC 4 and 5, Handley Page Harrow, Handley Page Halifax, Miles Magister, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Avro Lancaster, Fairey Battle, Airspeed Oxford, de Havilland Mosquito, Avro Lincoln, Handley Page Hastings, Gloster Meteor, Avro Anson, Vickers Valletta, Vickers Wellington, Percival Prentice, Bristol Britannia and Handley Page Victor. He flew with 10 Sqaudron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron. He was awarded the DFC. Pilots he flew with were Richards, Sobinski, Lewin, Turnbull, Hacking, Godfrey, Trip, Peterson, Lloyd, Bell, O’Driscoll, Allen, Declerk, Gribben, Gibsons, Wyatt, Clarke, Snow, Hardy, Haydon, McDonald, Murray, Jones, Dennis, Fisher, Connolly, Cheshire, Woolnough, Cat, McIntosh, Pope, Alcock, Smythe, Williams, Freeman, McKnight, Gillchrist, Moore, Faulkner, Carr, Espie, Brown, Price, Wiltshire, Spence, Symmons, Kirk, King, Burgess, Wilson, Pugh, Johnson, Reynolds, Roberts, Ringer, Minnis, Lowe, Everett, Renshaw-Dibb, Mathers, Sullings, Flower, Jarvis, Chopping, Widmer, Yates, Day, Spires, Huggins, Watts, Haycock, Owens, Liversidge, George , Banfield, Hunt, Porter, Goodman, Ayres, Shannon, Laytham, Lord, Rhys and Blundy, War time operations were to Sharnhorst and Gneisenau, Cologne, St Nazaire, Kiel, Paris, Aysen Fjord, Terpitz, Trondheim, Hamburg, Mannheim, Essen, Osnabruck, Tobruk, Heraklion, Maleme, Lens, Colline Beaumont, Bourg-Leopold, Trappes, Mont-Fleury, Abbeville, Nucourt, Le Harve, Boulogne. Post war destinations were to RAF Netheravon, RAF Hemswell, RAF Scampton, RAF Lindholm, RAF Marnham, RAF St Eval, RAF Aldergrove, RAF Wyton, RAF Stradishall, RAF Binbrook, RAF Bagington, RAF Waddington, RAF Topcliffe, RAF Upwood, Kai Tak, Changi, RAF Pembrey, RAF Llandow, RAF Filton, and RAF Bruggen. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Manning, Reg Reginald Manning R Manning Description An account of the resource Six items, concerning Pilot Officer Reg Manning DFC (567647 Royal air Force) including his flying log book and photographs. He served as an air gunner and flight engineer with 10 Squadron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Reg Manning. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Manning, R Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Reg Manning's observer's and air gunner's flying log book Description An account of the resource The Observer’s and Air Gunner’s Log Book covering the period 15 June 1941 to the 16 August 1963. Manning qualified first as an Air Gunner on the 4 July 1941 and second as a flight engineer on the 1 September 1941. He was commissioned on the 4 July 1943 as a Pilot Officer and promoted to acting Flight Lieutenant in April 1944, and again to acting Squadron Leader in March 1946. He reverted to Flight Lieutenant in April 1947 but was made substantive Squadron Leader in April 1956 in the Engineering Branch. He retired 16 August 1963. There are very few entries relating to his time as a Gunner. Most entries are as Engineer. He was stationed at RAF Stormy Down; RAF Middleton St George; RAF Linton-on-Ouse, RAF Leeming, RAF Aqir, RAF Fayid, RAF Marston Moor, RAF Snaith, RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor, RAF Cottesmore, RAF Finningley, RAF Scampton, RAF Binbrook, RAF Henlow, RAF Seletar, RAF LLandow, RAF Swanton Morley, and RAF Medmenham. He flew in the following types manly as Engineer; Avro Tutor, Armstrong Whitworth Ensign, Handley Page Hannibal, Hawker Hart, Handley Page Heyford, Douglas DC 4 and 5, Handley Page Harrow, Handley Page Halifax, Miles Magister, Armstrong Whitworth Whitley, Avro Lancaster, Fairey Battle, Airspeed Oxford, de Havilland Mosquito, Avro Lincoln, Handley Page Hastings, Gloster Meteor, Avro Anson, Vickers Valletta, Vickers Wellington, Percival Prentice, Bristol Britannia and Handley Page Victor. He flew with 10 Squadron, 462 Squadron, 51 Squadron, and 614 Squadron. He was awarded the DFC. His pilots on operations were Warrant Officer Peterson, Flight sergeant Whyte, Warrant Officer O'Driscoll, Sergeant Declerk, Flight Sergeant Clarke, Sergeant Gibbons, Sergeant Wyatt, Flight Lieutenant Freeman, Flight Sergeant McKnight, Pilot Officer Gillchrist, Flight Sergeant Moore, Warrant Officer Skinner, Warrant Officer Faulkner, Flying Officer Carr and Flight Sergeant Espie.&nbsp;War time operations were to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, Cologne, St Nazaire, Kiel, Paris, Aasen Fjord, Tirpitz, Trondheim, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Mannheim, Essen, Osnabruck, Tobruk, Heraklion, Maleme, Lens, Colline Beaumont, Bourg-Leopold, Trappes, Mont Fleury, Abbeville, Nucourt, Le Havre, Boulogne, Gibraltar, Kasfereet. Post war destinations were to RAF Netheravon, RAF Hemswell, RAF Scampton, RAF Lindholme, RAF Marnham, RAF St Eval, RAF Aldergrove, RAF Wyton, RAF Stradishall, RAF Binbrook, RAF Baginton, RAF Waddington, RAF Topcliffe, RAF Upwood, Kai Tak, Changi, RAF Pembrey, RAF Llandow, RAF Filton, and RAF Bruggen. Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Log book and record book Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1942-02-12 1942-02-14 1942-02-15 1942-02-16 1942-02-22 1942-02-23 1942-02-26 1942-02-27 1942-03-03 1942-03-04 1942-03-30 1942-03-31 1942-04-27 1942-04-28 1942-04-29 1942-05-03 1942-05-04 1942-05-06 1942-05-07 1942-05-19 1942-05-20 1942-05-30 1942-05-31 1942-06-01 1942-06-02 1942-06-03 1942-06-04 1942-06-05 1942-06-19 1942-06-20 1942-06-22 1942-07-11 1942-07-12 1942-07-18 1942-07-19 1942-07-20 1942-07-21 1942-07-24 1942-07-25 1942-09-03 1942-09-15 1942-09-16 1942-09-17 1942-09-18 1942-09-29 1942-09-30 1942-10-05 1942-10-06 1942-10-12 1942-10-13 1942-10-18 1942-10-19 1942-10-23 1942-10-24 1942-10-27 1942-10-29 1942-11-05 1942-11-07 1942-11-23 1943-07-24 1943-07-26 1943-07-27 1943-07-29 1943-08-01 1944-05-10 1944-05-11 1944-05-12 1944-05-27 1944-05-31 1944-06-01 1944-06-06 1944-06-11 1944-06-12 1944-06-23 1944-06-24 1944-07-15 1944-07-17 1944-09-11 1944-09-17 1945-06-19 1944-06-05 1944-07-18 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One booklet Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain Egypt Middle East--Palestine Singapore China--Hong Kong England--Yorkshire England--Lincolnshire England--Rutland England--Norfolk England--Bedfordshire England--Buckinghamshire England--Wiltshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Gloucestershire England--Cornwall (County) England--Suffolk England--Warwickshire Wales--Carmarthenshire Belgium Belgium--Leopoldsburg Greece--Crete Greece--Ērakleion Libya Libya--Tobruk Norway Norway--Trondheim France France--Saint-Nazaire France--Paris France--Lens France--Colline-Beaumont France--Soligny-la-Trappe France--Abbeville France--Nucourt France--Le Havre France--Boulogne-sur-Mer Germany--Kiel Germany--Cologne Germany--Hamburg Germany--Mannheim Germany--Essen Germany--Osnabrück Germany--Stuttgart Gibraltar Norway--Aasen Fjord Atlantic Ocean--North Sea Northern Ireland North Africa France--Ver-Sur-Mer Scotland--Shetland China Greece Great Britain Great Britain Germany--Ruhr (Region) England--Durham (County) Greece Greece--Maleme France--Saint-Quentin-en-Yvelines France--Pas-de-Calais Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context LManningR52870v1 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Review Oct 2024 10 Squadron 1652 HCU 1668 HCU 462 Squadron 51 Squadron 614 Squadron air gunner Air Gunnery School air sea rescue aircrew Anson Battle bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942) bombing of the Normandy coastal batteries (5/6 June 1944) Cook’s tour Distinguished Flying Cross flight engineer Gneisenau Halifax Harrow Heavy Conversion Unit Lancaster Lincoln Magister Me 110 Meteor Mosquito Normandy campaign (6 June – 21 August 1944) Oxford promotion RAF Aqir RAF Binbrook RAF Cottesmore RAF Fayid RAF Filton RAF Finningley RAF Hemswell RAF Henlow RAF Holme-on-Spalding Moor RAF Honington RAF Kasfereet RAF Leeming RAF Lindholme RAF Linton on Ouse RAF Marham RAF Marston Moor RAF Medmenham RAF Middleton St George RAF Pembrey RAF Scampton RAF Snaith RAF St Eval RAF Stormy Down RAF Stradishall RAF Swanton Morley RAF Topcliffe RAF Upwood RAF Waddington RAF Wyton Scharnhorst tactical support for Normandy troops Tirpitz training V-1 V-weapon Wellington Whitley https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1287/17229/PHarperL1901.2.jpg b15c864ba39a5f20db6c24984d37c6c5 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1287/17229/AHarperL190521.2.mp3 46073482bffd601b5d01a9f978128194 Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document DE: So this is an interview with Len Harper for the International Bomber Command Centre Digital Archive. My name Is Dan Ellin. We’re in Len Harper’s home in Chapel St Leonards. It’s the 21st of May 2019. Put that there and then we’ll try and forget about it. So, Len could you tell me a little bit about your early life before you joined the RAF? LH: Yes. Well, before I just went to the ordinary primary school, which I enjoyed and I left school at the age of fourteen, and from then on I was out of work but I managed to find myself a job and by the end of 19 — Come on. Come on. Other: Alright. [recording paused] LH: I decided that the RAF was the place for me. So having worked in a shop Wednesday afternoon was always our half day off and I told my brother, who worked with me, I said, ‘Tell mother that I shan’t be home for this afternoon.’ Instead of that I went off to Hanley in the Potteries and joined the Royal Air Force. That was in the April of 1939. From then on that’s where it started. I joined the Royal Air Force and I went down to Cardington where I did all my foot slogging, and then from Cardington I was sent to the Wireless Training School at Yatesbury in Wiltshire, and that’s where I took my course on radio repairs etcetera and I passed the course at the end of 1939. Of course, then the war had started in the September. And from then onwards I was posted from, from Yatesbury. I went to RAF station Wittering which was a lovely RAF station and I was there for two years when I was posted to India and Burma. That is a short account of my RAF. DE: Okey dokey. What was, what was training like? Can you remember? LH: Training was very, very good really. It was very good indeed. We did, we did learn and it was, it was easy to learn. I mean nothing was too complicated. I know I started, I started at the RAF Wireless School at Yatesbury in the September, and a three month course took me through to the end of December which was then supposed to have passed us through to the, to the training that we’d had. And of course I went straight on to radio maintenance, which I enjoyed very, very much indeed and that’s how it started with me. I had two years. Two years in, at RAF station Wittering. And from then I was posted to, overseas to South Africa and from South Africa to Bombay, India. DE: Ok. LH: And Burma. DE: So what, what did your work entail when you were at Wittering? What was, what was your, what was the job like? LH: It was repairing radio. Repairing. Mostly it was damaged radios that were damaged during the overseas work and we had a real full time job in trying to get everything going as quick as you could when the aircraft came down. This wanted doing, that wanted doing, and it had to be done. DE: So was it lots of soldering and changing valves and things like that? LH: Absolutely. That. DE: Yeah. LH: Oh yes. A lot of that. It was good really. I don’t know why I didn’t take it on after the war but I didn’t and that was it. And then in the February 1942 I was on leave to go abroad when I went to South Africa for three days strangely enough. And then from South Africa I went through to Bombay where I was there for what should, what should I say? About two years there and then I was posted to Burma. And from Burma I went almost down the east, east coast picking up various jobs that were required of me to do with regards to radio repairs. But India was quite nice. Well, what shall I say? A rare place. It wasn’t what I expected. We were looked on, some of us were looked on as fighters and what not. We wanted to get rid of India, sort of thing. Others thought the world of us. And we went on like that. And then of course I was posted overseas to Burma where I spent eighteen month. And it was illness that brought me back from Burma, back in to India and then I came back and did another year in India doing the same job that I’d done right the way through. DE: What was the illness that you had? LH: It was, what was it? Oh, I can’t think [pause] I’m just trying to think of it. I can’t — DE: Dysentery or — LH: It was dysentery. DE: Right. LH: Dysentery is correct. Yes. Yes. I had dysentery which I had, I’ve never even got rid of it. I even get yet touches of it nowadays. At my hundredth birthday. But it wasn’t that that took me out of the Force. I automatically left the Force in 1945, and my wife didn’t want me to go back. And having plenty of conversation I thought well she doesn’t want to go back in to the Women’s Royal Air Force so I tore my papers up and that was it and I went to work on the railway. DE: What did you do on the railway? LH: I was a railway signalman on the Derby-Crewe line. I enjoyed that. It was very, very nice. I could have stayed on there but once again lines were being taken up and we were knocked out and that was it. Good old days. And from then onwards I went in to various industries. I did work in the man-made fibres division with the ICI. I was there for approximately eleven years, and after then I didn’t see any sense in stopping. I learnt what I wanted to learn and I left and I went into the newspaper business. And that’s how it went on. Going from place to place. It was a good life really because I’ve always been interested in trains and — [pause] LH: I’m trying to think what else happened. DE: That’s ok. We can, we can go back over some of this stuff and you might, you might think of some more things to say. I’m rather interested in why you decided to join the RAF. LH: Yes. Well, it was rather strange because my brother joined the RAF in January 1939, and he came home after a while and said how good it was, this, that and the other. I said, ‘Oh, I might have a go myself.’ Which I did. I liked the idea of it. So, in the April of ’39 I decided to go and join the RAF, which I did and I’m glad I did. I could have stayed in the RAF for years if, if my wife would have liked the idea. But she didn’t want the idea of being [pause] well, what should I say? Being under the RAF. DE: Sure, yes. When did you meet her? When did you marry? LH: I met her long before I joined the RAF. We were married. We married in February 1942 but I met my wife long before that. And she joined, she joined the RAF. She was from Nottingham and there we were. DE: So it must have been fairly hard. Only getting to see each other when you both had leave, I imagine. LH: Oh, yes. Yes. We always managed to get together when leave was on the records. Yes. We did. DE: What did she think when you got your posting to India? LH: She didn’t like the idea at all but of course she was already in the Women’s Royal Air Force so it didn’t make much of a difference to her. We were, she put up with it and I explained to her that it was all for the best, which it was really. But to go out to India was rather strange. I never thought I should be sent out to India because I went to Bombay where we [pause] and then from Bombay I went [pause] I went to Quetta. I was at Quetta for three, four months taking a wireless course. And then we were posted. I was posted down to Calcutta. And from Calcutta I went through to the postal region, and I went into Burma. To a place called Dohazari. A very nice place. And I was there for two years until I got this dysentery and I had to go back in to India and I went to central India, to Agra where I was hospitalised there for eight months. DE: What were conditions like in the hospital? LH: Pretty good. Pretty good really. Oh yes. They did look after us. There’s no doubt about that [pause]. I had plenty of time to get about and I had some good times. I had, well I met a lot of people in India. I went to Bhopal, to Agra, to Quetta and all various places. And I got to know quite a lot of the Indian people and to me they were, they were quite, quite a nice lot in my opinion. But of course there was this time when they were wanting to get out of the British Raj and this, that and the other, and you didn’t know who you could really rely on for a friendship. And there it was. But Burma was a strange place. The Burmese didn’t like us. They liked the Japanese more than they liked, liked us. However, we got over that and as I say the third time I had to, I was posted back in to India with dysentery. DE: So, were you part of the Third Tactical Air Force over there in Burma? LH: Yes. Yes. DE: Yeah. LH: Definitely. Went down as far as Rangoon and it was quite good out there but Burma seemed a funny place. They didn’t like us. They liked the Japanese. They were more fond of the Japanese than they were of the British troops and I thought, well, that’s what I thought. That was my opinion. DE: What were the living conditions like out there? LH: Out in — DE: In, in Burma. LH: Pretty jungalised. We more or less lived like we should have done in the, in the jungle but it’s quite good. It was. We had some good food. We had our own, we had our own cooks and what not, so we didn’t do too bad. I suppose if I hadn’t had dysentery I shouldn’t have got back out of Burma. DE: So, it was, it was airstrips in the — LH: Yes. DE: In the forest. LH: Yes. Yes, it was. Actually it was a very interesting time. I mean people said oh this, that and the other, it was terrible but I didn’t find it terrible. I mean, you took it as it came and that was it. You knew what you’d got to put up with. You knew what you had to do, and you did it. And then of course when I went back in to India I was posted to a place called Santa Cruz just outside Bombay which was more or less, well it was like being on the Underground in London. It was very very good. And then from then on of course I came back in to, in to England. DE: What was, what was the transport like? I mean, you say you liked trains. You must have used trains a bit and then obviously the, the troop ships. LH: Well, trains. I could do with trains all the time. I was really a train man. I was brought up on the railways. I mean I was in a signal, signal box on the Derby-Crewe line for eleven months and I really got to know the railway. And I liked it very much. Training was good and you could move about if you wanted to or you could stay where you were. I moved from Derby-Crewe down in to Uttoxeter, and then back to Ashbourne and then from then it was wiped out. The junction was wiped out altogether and I was made redundant. DE: Was that the cuts? The Beeching cuts. LH: It was Beeching’s cuts. DE: Yeah. LH: Yes. It certainly was. DE: What were the troop ship transports like that took you out to India and brought you home again? LH: They were pretty groggy, let’s put it that way. As long as you did as you were told you were alright. But I didn’t like it at all. But then again if you did as you were told you were alright. The troop ships. No. DE: Were they long journeys? LH: Well, we started off from South Wales. Went up to Glasgow and from Glasgow back down to the, what was it, the Mediterranean. Then we were sent in to Freetown. We were there for a week because the Germans were outside waiting for us to get out and make after us. But we did go and we finished off going down to South Africa. South Africa we went to, to Bombay, and that’s how I got to know India. Karachi was, Karachi was quite nice. I liked India actually. DE: What in particular? LH: I liked the country. I liked some [emphasis] of the people. I met some very nice friends. And that was the main reason and I could get about the country which I did, and that was it. I could have stayed in India. DE: You didn’t, you didn’t mind the climate then. LH: No. No. The climate. No. Never worried me a little bit. Not a bit. As I can say I never wore, never wore a sunhat all the time I was in India. I still wore my old RAF hat. And I got some very nice friends. DE: Was that other RAF personnel or, or — LH: Well, Anglo-Indian most of them. DE: Right. LH: Most, most of the ones but I worked with them. We were BBC but we had taken a part of the Indian radio over and of course we met a lot of the Anglo Indians who had been drafted in to the Force and we got to know them very, very well. DE: And this was, you were still working on the wirelesses, the radios from the aircraft. LH: Oh yes. Yes. DE: Yeah. LH: Yes, definitely. DE: So what sort of aircraft were they flying? LH: We were flying, well mostly it was, what shall I say? We saw a lot the Bedfords, Blenheims, and Spitfires. Anything that came down that wanted repairs to radios we did it. DE: Did you ever fly? LH: Not to the extent of work flying. No. I did fly. We often used to manage to get lifts, you know around the countryside but I wasn’t aircrew. DE: No. LH: No. DE: Did you ever consider it? LH: I did think about it. As a matter of fact I was offered the chance to take a commission. The only thing that stopped me was the fact I knew I should have to do another two years out in India and I didn’t want to do that so I didn’t take it. DE: What was the contact with your wife like? LH: Oh, she was, she was in the RAF and of course she could get home from Nottingham back in to Ashwood. She was quite happy and she left the WAAFs before I left the RAF, and it was through that that I didn’t go back. DE: Yeah. LH: I wish I had have stayed in the RAF. DE: But did you used to write to each other? LH: Oh yes. Yes, we had. We did. DE: How long did a letter take? LH: Not too long. About a couple of, a couple of weeks sometimes. Sometimes you got a quick reply. Your answers would come a lot quicker. Correspondence was pretty good during the war. And then of course when I finished, I finished up with going to work on the railway [pause] which I did between Oxford and Uttoxeter. Pomfrey Junction, Leek and various places. DE: I’ll just pause this. [recording paused] LH: But India is the fact that I only saw India, the places that I visited. I mean New Delhi, Delhi. I went there. Fatehpur Sikri, the forbidden city. That was all boarded up. DE: What was it like? LH: Pardon? DE: What was it like? LH: Well, we never, we never managed to get in to Fatehpur Sikri. We could go around it. I don’t know why it was, it was, it was shut off from the country. It was really quite a nice place. There was the pink city. Jahal. The best place I liked was the central India, was Agra, and of course I saw places that they advertise in the papers nowadays. It costs thousands of pounds to get there whereas I had it all free. Especially through the Taj Mahal. I did enjoy that. DE: So you did some sightseeing then. LH: Pardon? DE: You did see some sights then. LH: Oh, yes. DE: Yeah. LH: Yes. I did. DE: Did you take a camera? LH: Yes, I had a camera, and I had a bicycle which I bought to get around the countryside, where ever I wanted to. And I got in with some very nice friends who had been to India for years. And they took us in alright. We got on very well. DE: So, you went, you went exploring when you had some leave then. LH: Oh yes. DE: Yeah. LH: Yes. I went all over the country, even right down as far, as far as Ceylon [pause] They were good old days, you know when I look back. Really, really good holidays. You can come in Mike, don’t worry about upsetting us. Other: I was looking to see where your photographs are. DE: I’ll just pause it again. [recording paused] DE: So, I’ll just start recording again. I’ve — Other: I’ve got the tea coming. DE: Ok. I’ve been suggested that I should ask you about being chased out of Burma. LH: Oh yes. We were chased out of Burma soon after we got in there. We’d just got in, more or less settling down and we were chased right out again. But we went back and that was it. DE: What was it, what was it like when you were retreating from the Japanese? LH: It was rather strange because the only thing they had between us was about a four foot wide, four foot, four hundred foot river. The River Ramu. And that was as far and they used to shout across to us across the river and they got two of our fellas because we brought their, all their stuff back with us when we left. DE: So it was quite, quite a close run thing then at times. LH: Oh, yes. Yes. DE: Thank you. I’ll just pause it again because there’s tea. [recording paused] LH: [unclear] was the place in Burma that we went to. Cox’s Bazaar. That was a place. Ramu, The River [unclear]. That was all on the, all on the west coast. DE: So, were you involved in the Battle of Kohima then? That sort of — LH: No. DE: No. LH: No. I’m not really involved in any of the big battles. We had times when we, we had to be careful and this, that and the other but, no. It’s, I was pretty lucky actually. I’d say very lucky. I don’t know. [pause] Yes. But like everything, I mean say you think about these things. You try to remember all that you’ve seen and it’s impossible to remember everything. Oh, I liked Delhi. I liked Mandodari. That was very nice there. And what was it? Agra was very very nice. And so was Bhopal. That was nice. We were there just before they had that trouble in Bhopal. DE: Going back to to Burma what did you think about the Japanese? What was your attitude to them? LH: Well, we didn’t see a lot of them. We heard a lot of them but we didn’t see a lot of them and we were sort of one side the river and they were the other side of the river and that was it. And then we were suddenly moved off and we went back, we went back in to India. Well, I’d say we were pushed off really. DE: When you were, when you were being pushed out of Burma. Burma. Were you, were you worried about being taken prisoner? LH: No. No. We were lucky in that respect in as much that we, Burma we, we did hold the border. We held the border very well there and it was just a hop across on to the ferry and back into India. But then the second time when we went in of course we went right down as far as Rangoon, and of course the Japanese were pushed right out. But I did meet a few Japanese. A few Japanese prisoners. They didn’t like being taken prisoners. They seemed all right. I mean, they were only humans like we were but they seemed to be funny people. They thought nothing of committing suicide and things like that which we wouldn’t even dream of. I’m just trying to think of the point where we were stationed. [pause] LH: A lot of it has gone through my head and that. I can’t just recall it. DE: Yeah. LH: It’s seventy years ago. DE: It is. Yeah. It’s a fair old while. LH: But it’s nice of you to come and have a talk about things. Is there anything else that’s — DE: Well, I’ve got, there’s other things we could talk about. So, where were you when the war ended? Where, were you on — LH: When the war ended I was in central India. That’s when, that’s when it ended in India and Burma and we were, I was then enroute back to England and I remember passing, passing Malta and then we went through, right through until we got to England. DE: So, did you, did you hear about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? LH: Oh yes. We heard all about that. DE: Yeah. LH: Yeah. DE: What were your thoughts? LH: I thought it was scandalous. I’d never ever even think that they used bombs like that but of course that was it. DE: So, did you celebrate the end of the war then? LH: We did, yes. We celebrated well. I finished up at Morecambe strangely enough. We were all posted off to a camp outside Morecambe and we did a real good celebration there. A very good celebration. And from Morecambe I went home on disembarkation leave and I went there. I was there in 1940, ‘45. Christmas. I never went back. Never went back, which I ought to have done. I never went back in to the RAF. DE: What was demob like? LH: Ok. I went straight on to the railway when I, when I came out of the RAF [pause] But I did, I met quite a nice lot of people. DE: Sure. LH: In India. DE: What did you think about the Partition of India? LH: Well, we didn’t know really a lot about it. We knew what was happening and you could tell at the time that you’d got to be careful what you said and what you did and that was that. You never used to mention politics. You thought it better to remain silent. I mean you was always the British Raj this that, the British Raj that and they were going to do this and they were going to do that, but it never came off. I know there was a very good hairdresser in Agra I got to know. He used to do my hair pretty well. [pause] A place called Juhu, just outside Bombay. That was a very nice place. I could have stayed in India. DE: So they offered you a promotion. LH: Yeah. I could really have stayed in India. DE: What would you have been doing then if you’d have stayed? LH: I don’t know what I should have been. I should have had to take a commission I think. I think that was the only way that I could have stayed in. DE: So then would you — LH: It was when they said it would mean I would have to do another extra two years in India I thought oh no, that’s not for me. Bombay was a nice place in parts. I’ve got some photographs there which I took because I always had the camera with me. [pause] LH: Well, I think that’s about all I can recall. DE: That’s really interesting. Thank you. Just one other question that I usually ask is is have you any thoughts about the way the Second World War has been remembered? I mean you said it’s seventy years ago now. LH: In the way that, well I don’t remember very much of the end of the Second World War because as I say we were coming home from India at the time when it had happened in India and Burma, and we were getting back to England. But with regard to celebrating should I say, the end of the Second World War in England, it had already been done more or less. We all went back to our normal stations. I went, I went back to Cardington and then from Cardington back to Wittering and from Wittering I was demobbed. But it didn’t seem a lot to us, the celebration of the end of the Second World War. DE: But what about the way it’s been remembered in the history books and on television? LH: A lot of it was true. A lot of it was false. A lot of it was just made up as one might say. I know, my experience, the fact that I came out and I was posted back to the Army in Yatesbury, to the RAF in Yatesbury and I went back to my Unit and everything went just as normal. It was there that I was recommended I should stay in the Royal Air Force, but of course you know what. It didn’t happen. The one thing about it, we did see the world. DE: Yes. Because you said you had three days in South Africa. LH: Yes. That was a strange lot. We got off the boat, went walking around the city and this, that and the other and back to the boat. Back again in to the city. And on the third day we weren’t allowed out. We knew we were moving. We knew we moved from South Africa. We went on to Bombay then. Mumbai as it is now. All I remember of Bombay is the fact that in the harbour when we got there we’d nothing but a sea of floating turbans. Everybody had thrown their turbans into the sea. They were good old days, they were bad old days but I think [emphasis] the good seemed to mix in enough with the bad for it to say well it was just as you saw it. DE: So even with retreating from the Japanese and being ill for eight months it was a, it was a good time. LH: It was. It was, yes. It definitely was. The only Japanese we actually saw were prisoners. We didn’t see many of those. I had some good times, had some bad times. Taking it, taking it all in it wasn’t all too bad. I can’t say I didn’t enjoy it. I did enjoy it. It was an experience. An experience which thousands of people would never experience. The only thing was, as I said if it hadn’t been for my wife I should have stayed in. DE: Yes. LH: Full time. But I didn’t. DE: What did she do in the, in the Women’s Auxiliary Air Force? LH: She was a typist. She was just outside Newton. Outside, just out Nottingham and of course she wasn’t far from home. She could get home when she had a couple of days off and she was very, very happy about that but she left the Air Force before I did. Aye. [pause] DE: And I’m just wondering why you’ve, why you’re living here now? When did you move? LH: Pardon? DE: When did you move here? LH: From [pause] I went to, I was born in Reading, and we moved down into Reading from Derbyshire. We were there for ten years in to the cottage where I was born. My aunt who lived in it bought the place and she left it to us in her will when she passed away. The only thing about Reading was the fact we couldn’t get a bungalow to suit my wife. She couldn’t climb stairs so we decided that we’d see what Lincoln had got. But having been six or seven months at Wainfleet during the war we went to Wainfleet. We went all around and we found this place in Chapel St Leonards and we liked it. My wife liked it so we decided that we would stay and we did. DE: Right. LH: I’ve always enjoyed it here. I still like it. I still like Chapel St Leonards. I like Lincolnshire. DE: We haven’t talked about your time at Wainfleet. What were you doing there? LH: Oh, at Wainfleet I was on the bombing range. DE: Right. LH: I was doing radio repairs on the bombing range. It was a crude place but mind you we didn’t half soup up some aircraft. It altered quite a bit after a while. It was just, it was just like a hut on the bombing on the side of the runway [pause] and we we held the radio communications for the station. Mango, Mango. That was our call sign. DE: Was it, was it very busy then, the bombing range? LH: It was very busy indeed. Very, busy. It was. DE: And were they, were they dropping live, live bombs or — LH: Practice, yes. Live bombs on the proper bombing range but practice bombs. They dropped quite a few of those. That was the days of the Blenheims. Most of them were Blenheims, and the Wellingtons. I always remember all those. DE: And how accurate were they? How close to the targets did they get? LH: They were pretty good. They got pretty good at it. DE: So were you in communication with them when they were doing? LH: Yes. DE: Right. LH: Yes. Oh yes. Radio communication. I can see it all now. DE: So, how did it work? Were they told how well they’d done and how close they’d got to the target? LH: Yes. Yes. They were given a report sheet as to what they’d missed and what they’d hit and it all added up I suppose to whatever they did. Of course that was the days of, like I say the American heavy bombers, our Blenheims and what not. DE: Yeah. So, I suppose being posted to India when you were you, you didn’t see the big bomber fleets of Lancasters and Halifaxes. LH: No. Only Halifaxes. Halifaxes. Saw all those aircraft in the hangars at the base. DE: Did you ever work on radar? LH: Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes, we had radar. We had a lot of radar repairs to do. We went down to the Isle of Wight for that. [pause] DE: What was that like to work on? LH: Quite good really. You could see how things were developing. You could see as it was going to be the, well the means of communication in the end which it was. DE: So, did you do any work with the navigation aids like Gee and H2S and things like that or — LH: No. DE: No. LH: No. We used to go up in the bombers and test radios when we’d repaired them or when they wanted repairing. We used to go up with the, with the bombers. It was very [unclear] But I never really wanted to, to be in the flying crew. I don’t know why. I didn’t mind the odd journey in an aircraft. That was great. Absolutely was wonderful. Has it been of interest to you? DE: It’s been fantastic. Thank you very much. Yes. LH: Anything, anything else you would like to know? DE: Well, usually the last thing I say is is there anything else that you would like to tell? LH: Not really. Not as, not as I know of. Except I’ve had all the encouragement with my in-laws and family in doing the jobs that I wanted to do and, and there we are. But with regards to finishing with the Royal Air Force well it just, it came as I’ve told you if it hadn’t been for my wife who didn’t like the idea of [pause] what should I say, being out with me in the aircraft, and having our own, our own aircraft err our own houses, she didn’t like that idea at all. That’s what really put it down. DE: Yeah. Right, well, I shall, I shall switch the recording off. Can I just say thank you very much again for — LH: It’s been a pleasure. DE: For the interview. LH: I only hope I’ve told you enough to make you realise it was worth coming for. DE: Well, there’s, there’s nearly, nearly an hour’s worth on the tape so— LH: Oh. DE: Right. So thank you very much. Other: I want to ask you a question. DE: Oh, ok. I should — Other: You’ve mentioned Wainfleet. DE: We have mentioned Wainfleet. Other: Right. And was it the sergeant or the corporal coming on the motorbike? DE: Oh, not had that. Is there a story about a non-commissioned officer on a motorbike at Wainfleet? LH: Oh yes. Yes. DE: Right. LH: We, we were on a radio station and this corporal, Corporal Green he had a BSA motorcycle, and he often wondered I think why we were always busy working when he came. We got the beat of his engine, you see. We knew somebody was there so we were all ready for him. That was the — Other: You used to speak to him on the radio. LH: The good old days. The good old days. DE: I shall leave it there then. Thank you very much. LH: Thank you. DE: Cheers. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Len Harper Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dan Ellin Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-05-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AHarperL190521, PHarperL1901 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:55:02 audio recording Description An account of the resource Len Harper registered for the air force in April 1939, influenced by the positive experience of his brother, who had joined in January. Upon completing training at the Wireless Training School, RAF Yatesbury, he was posted to RAF Wittering, where he undertook radio maintenance for two years. Harper was posted to India in 1942, after marrying his wife, (a Women’s Auxiliary Air Force typist, based at RAF Newton) in February. He describes servicing radios for Blenheims and Spitfires, sightseeing with his friends, and sensing the political tensions. After two years, he was posted to Burma, where he completed radio maintenance for the Third Tactical Air Force. He recalls his impressions of the country, the living conditions in the jungle, and retreating from the Japanese. Due to illness, 18 months later, he returned to India, where he was hospitalised with dysentery for eight months. Harper returned home and, despite enjoying his work, left the air force in 1945, following the wishes of his wife. Finally, he describes his post-war career service at RAF Wainfleet, and how fondly he remembers his time in India. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tilly Foster Carolyn Emery Maureen Clarke Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Burma Great Britain India South Africa England--Bedfordshire England--Cambridgeshire England--Lincolnshire England--Northamptonshire England--Wiltshire Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1939 1940 1941 1942-02 1943 1944 1945 Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Blenheim ground personnel love and romance military living conditions RAF Cardington RAF Newton RAF Wainfleet RAF Wittering RAF Yatesbury recruitment Spitfire Women’s Auxiliary Air Force https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/759/17702/BCruickshankGCruickshankGv1.pdf dfd3c2b42238313849a60c2315a4bb2c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Cruickshank, Gordon G Cruickshank Description An account of the resource 76 items. Concerns the life and wartime career of Flight Lieutenant Gordon Cruickshank DFM who joined the Royal Air Force in 1938. After training as an air gunner he flew 52 operations on Manchester and Lancaster with 50, 560 and 44 Squadrons. Collection consists of a 1956 memoir with original photographs donated separately, a memoir of his life on squadron from December 1941, his logbooks. a further notebook with memoir, playing cards annotated with his operations, official documents, lucky mascots, medals and badges, dog tags, memorabilia, crew procedures, as well as photographs of aircraft, targets and people. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Linda Hinman and catalogued by Nigel Huckins Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-04-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Cruickshank, G Access Rights Information about who can access the resource or an indication of its security status. Access Rights may include information regarding access or restrictions based on privacy, security, or other policies. Permission granted for commercial projects Transcribed document A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document FLT/LT G CRUIKSHANK D.F.M RAFRO 16, DEEPDALE, NETTLEHAM, LINCOLN 1 “Lincolnshire” 1956 As I lay in Johnson Ward of the County Hospital once more, under the now familiar faces of the Sister and Nurses!! Thinking back over my life of its ups and downs, memories of the past come back to me – the experiences, the thrills, and comradeship which I will never forget. Maybe to some they’ll mean very little, but to me everything!! I am one of millions – and my living earnt [sic] the hard way, as it is with most of us!! my name not even famous – but one that I am proud of, so it is that perhaps my life as [sic] been average? let me tell you about it!! The date is 1914/15, and my Father was a regular in the army – then stationed at the “Verne” Portland, Dorset, he was a widower with three children!! two girls Bella and Lena, and George the son – who was killed in that war, Father was Scotish [sic] and his home was in ‘Aberdeen’. Mother, who was a widow with eight children!! five girls, and three boys – the oldest Henry being away in the navy, having been called up for the war!! was later wounded in [page break] 2 action. Mother was English and born in Dorset, her maiden name being ‘Corbin’, and married name Butler!! her husband having been killed in an unfortunate quarry accident, how they met [self-corrected] – well that is somethink [sic] I cannot answer!! but they did, and married shortly after. Then my brother Lewis, myself and Norman!! who died in early childhood – and making me the baby of twelve, when looking back over the years – my Father, whose name was Lewis Cruickshank – going from Aberdeen to Dorset and marrying Mother Clara Daisy Butler, and years later myself moving from Dorset to Lincolnshire and marrying a Joyce May Butler. I was born at the end of the 1914/18 war, we lived in a very large house in Portland – known as underhill, for being like the Rock of Gibralter, [sic] with a long hill of about 2½ miles in length from the bottom to the top – the bottom being called “Underhill” and the top “Top-Hill”, and we were situated about halfway up the hill. [page break] 3 I think Dorset a lovely county, and Portland although small a beautiful place!! with its lovely harbour – and barracks overlooking that, the large prison!! forts around the cliffs – two castles, the coves and steep cliffs, “Portland Bill” itself – with its lighthouse and famous “Pullpit Rock” [sic], not forgetting the [self-corrected] Chesil [/self-corrected] beach which is 22 miles long consisting of Millions upon Millions of egg shaped pebbles!! which goes from Portland to Bridport, and lastly the quarries which get out the famous Portland stone. On one occassion [sic] a stranger asked me about the islands places of interest!! I replied, this is not an island “Sir’, but a “Peninsula’, meaning a portion of land nearly surrounded by water – which of course Portland is!! I was rewarded a penny. With two years or so between us all in ages, Mother never had us at home altogether!! for when us younger ones were born the older ones had left, first Henry, then Mabel who married a regular in the Navy, their two girls now married and with children of their own – Aurther [sic] her husband having done his 22 years service and now working in Portland Dockyard. [page break] 4 Bessie had married another time serving sailor and moved to Portsmouth!! they had three boys, two are now married with children – and the third is at “London University”!! Frank her husband did 28 years service, [sic] and works in Portsmouth Dockyard. Gwen met a Soldier in the “Buffs’ then station [sic] at the “Verne’ Portland, they married and settled in Portland!! he [deleted] h [/deleted] is a Dockyard Policeman now, and have two married children. While this came about I was growing up, and had started school!! our school being situated on the cliff edge over looking the sea. Remember a French Schooner getting wrecked just below us, and was never refoated [sic] again!! when the sea around us got rough – it very often came over the top of the beach and flooding a large area. My school days was more or less like any other lad!! but we had our moments, swimming, football, scouts ex [sic], and climbing the cliffs after eggs!! chasing wild goats – remember once catching a large “billy” and trying to ride it, but not succesfully. [sic] Then we wanted to camp out as most lads do!! Lewis sent me home to ask – but on [page break] 5 arriving no one was in, so helped myself to our requirements and set off back – we got nicely settled in our tent when both Mum and Dad arrived – they had been looking everywhere for us!! of course we went through it I can assure you, couldn’t blame them for I had taken her best blankets and sheets - apart from failing to let them know where we were, and I was unpopular with Lewis too!! While at school, “Silv’ and Reg both joined the boys service of the Navy!! now they are out after 24 years service, [sic] Silv married and settled in North Shields – Reg and Violet his wife came and settled here at Lincoln. Lewis had left school and was on the boats crossing the channel from Weymouth to “Guernsey” and “Jersey”, he later joined the navy and is nearly finnished!! [sic] Married a Portsmouth girl and settle there – they have two boys. My schooling now over, and helped my brother-in-law window cleaning – until I got myself a shop assistants job in Weymouth, Mother moved shortly afterwards to Weymouth!! how pleased I was about that for it meant the end of my 10 mile [page break] [Photograph missing] Self [underline] “The 4th Queens Own Hussars” [/underline] Early 1936 [underline] Warburg [/underline] [underline] Barracks [/underline] [underline] Aldershot [/underline] [page break] 6 daily ride. Ethel married a regular soldier serving in the “Dorsets” stationed at the Verne they have two lads, and live at Hamworthy near Bournemouth. He completed his service some while ago, having gained the rank of “Colonel”. I was about sixteen when my other sister Rose married, she married a Portlander and have two girls, one married and still at Portland!! Fred her husband works for a quarry firm and during the war served in the Navy. On reaching eighteen I joined the Army “The 4th Queens Own Hussars”, this was the 2nd January 1936, and was stationed at Warburg Barracks, Aldershot!! We were Cavalry and had not yet been mechanised, this came in 1937!! so I did a full cavalrymans [sic] training and had just completed Army manouvres [sic] around Arundel castle area, and one Aldershot tattoo when we started to get mechanised with bren gun carriers and bren guns. Father had been ill for some time – and after he died Mother had me released on compassionate grounds. [page break] 7 George V had died, and the Prince of Wales had become King!! later abdicating, and now George VI was King - and just before his coronation in 1937 I was released this was April 20th 1937. Back home again my work at that time was with Walls ice cream – “stop me and buy one”!! as it was known then - using a three wheeler bike and cycling from Weymouth to Portland Bill and back daily a distance of about 24 miles. This was only a summer job, and when over I took a porters job in one of the hotels at Weymouth, things were very unsettled for me – and when in 1938 it looked like another war I applied to R.A.F. for enlistment. It was early 1938 when I was instructed to go the [deleted] indecipherable letter [/deleted] R.A.F. centre at Bristol some 90 miles from Weymouth!! had to be there 9.30. in the morning, this would be impossible unless I traveled [sic] the evening beforehand – for their [sic] was [sic] no trains early enough, money at that time was as it is now – short!! but just the same I went up over night – spending the night on a bench in one of Bristols parks!! [sic] [page break] 8 Using the public convinience [sic] to shave and wash before going for my examinations, which I passed!! and was finally enlisted at “West Drayton” on 13th December 1938 for seven years. My first R.A.F. station was “Uxbridge” a training centre, having been in the Army I was trained in foot and rifle drill – also PT, so the first part of my service came easy!! my pay was, as in the Army 14/- per week and instead of Trooper was now A.C.2 A.C.H. (aircraftman second class – aircrafthand) none tradesmen. We shortly moved to Cranwell – and I soon made up my mind that it would be better to have a trade!! so I applied for a Group II trade course on balloon’s [sic]. Before getting my course, I was posted to RAF Warmwell, Dorset near Dorchester and about nine miles from home!! shortly afterwards going to Lime [sic] Regis on airsea [sic] rescue, a [sic] Anson bomber had come down on a beach further along the coast and we went by boat – and I was left to guard it!! After being at Lime [sic] Regis returned to Warmwell - my posting came through to go to No. 3 Balloon Centre Stanmore [page break] 9 to start my trade course – this was early summer of 1939. This camp was situated a few miles north of London, and at that time Henry my oldest brother was working at the “Trocadero” in Shaftsbury Avenue!! and lived at Beckingham, Kent – used to visit him whenever possible. I was making great progress with my training, and was well on the way for completion when on September 3rd 1939 war was declared on Germany. Things were then rushed along, we were given trade course’s!! [sic] and with the Auxiliary Air force we were sent out all over London to form independant [sic] balloon sites, ours being situated at Muswell Hill north London!! it was a striking effect when we completed our task and saw hundreds and hundreds of Balloons airbourne. [sic] The men I was with, turned out a grand lot and we had many enjoyable times together!! my trade result came through and I was made A.C.1 Group II tradesman, this made a great difference to my pay. Just before Christmas of 1939 I was [page break] [Photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1502-0002 [underline] Taken Felixstowe early 1939 [/underline] Self, second row, second from right to left [page break] 10 posted to Felixstowe, where others and myself from different units to form a new Balloon Group at Felixstowe and Harwich. We heard the destroyer “Gypsy” had hit a mine and blew up with all hands – this must of [sic] been our first loss in regards to warships? The weather was terrible – and our hands got very cold handling the Balloons, and getting them first on bardges [sic] – then on land sites!! My first Christmas dinner of the war was there – and still that “menu’, what a grand food we had too, soon after Christmas my L.A.C. came through and a further increase in pay. Often went into Felixstowe and Ipswich for evening s off duty – had some grand times with the chaps who I had paled [sic] up with!! One of our 5 toners [sic] had been left at Cardington, Huntingtonshire – some hundred miles inland, I was sent to fetch it back!! although I could drive, had never drove such a large lorry before – still I didn’t let that worry me!! spent the night at the camp there and reported to the motor transport section to get it early the following morning, but was informed [page break] 11 I was to take two five ton trailers of hydrogen gas back with me – due to a heavy storm back at Felixstowe, a heavy loss in Balloons, and they were in urgent need of gas!! Well I was shaken beyond words – but only asked for a look-out, they sent along a A.C.H. Got the lorry and trailers connected up ex [sic] and with my fellow airmen looking out we set off for our long journey to the coast – believe me driving it, and with trailers on for the first time was no joke for the length was a terrific experience, but we succeeded_ later on I learnt that driving with two trailers was stopped by “air ministry”. Early summer of 1940 I was made a Corparal [sic], and was then of a Balloon site with another Corparal sharing duties, his name was Charles Miles and we had a crew of ten and were self supporting!! The Battle of Britton [sic] was on – we could watch them over London area doing a great job. I applied for aircrew. We got on fine at our site – and apart from losing our Balloons during storms, we kept it up pretty well!! I remember a jerry bomber [page break] [Two photographs missing] Photos of our near miss!! Felixstowe 1940 [underline] showing 150 ton lifting crane in background [/underline] [page break] 12 flying on to bomb the main camp but his bombs [deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] fell short and nearly had us instead, we were shaken I can assure you!! “this called for the camera”. Then one of our Hampdens flying low on returning from a raid, hit into the cable of one of our Balloons, cutting away half its wing and causing it to crash into a factory nearby – all were burnt to death in the fire it caused!! luckily the factory was closed. Ted Drake and Cliff Baston [sic] the footballers came to Felixstowe to do their training – I met them in the canteen, but I guess they’ll not remember now. After the fall of [self-corrected] France [/self-corrected] – “Dunkirk” and my brother Sylvester helped in the evacuation of our troops from the shore of Dunkirk making several crossings!! a lot coming into Harwich where I was now stationed having been moved from Felixstowe – things looked black for us!! I know when traveling [sic] home on leave, going through London after air raids was almost heart breaking – and longed to be “aircrew” to have a smack a jerry in return, soon this was granted – and after I had just done a fourteen day course on anti tank guns ex [sic] with the Army stationed near Ipswich!! I was posted to [page brake] [Photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1502-0003+PCruickshankG1502-0004 [underlined twice] Evanton [/underlined twice] “gunnery school class” August 1941 self middle, Fred Daley centre back row [underline] centre row [/underline] Ken Smith, first, centre row, Vic Greenwood next. From next to right [page break] 13 number 8 air gunnery school Evanton, Scotland. This was the 28th August 1941. We commenced our course on the 29th, I made friends with Ken Smith, Vic Greenwood and Fred Daley. The aircraft then was the Blackburn Botha a twin engine fighter with a gun [self-corrected] turret [/self-corrected]. Our course was short, and after only four weeks – and 7 hrs 25 mins flying we were passed out Sgt airgunners!! the increase in pay for me was only 6D per day – for being a tradesman Corparal [sic] my pay was nearly that of a Sgt airgunner, only pilots and other Branches of aircrew got the 13/6 per day as Sgts. 28th September I traveled [sic] home on leave, afterwards Ken Smith and myself spent the end in London before proceeding to 10 O.T.U. Abingdon, Oxfordshire. We were to complete our training there, before going to an operational “Sqdn”!! gunners at that time weren’t very respected - believe [sic] due to the fact that Sgts having just been introduced into aircrew branch of [self-corrected] airgunners!![/self-corrected] Aircraft in use at Abington at that time, “Handley Page Whitley”, this was just before Christmas of 1941. [page break] 14 Our other station "Stanton Harcourt" was where I first started flying on them - "all circles and landings" night and day with the following pilots, Sgt Stewart, P.O. Harcourt, Sgt Clarke, P/O Blease, P/O More, P/O Archer, F/O Warmer, P/O Luoid [?] and Sgt Butt, Have often wondered if any of them survived the war!! When free, we visited Oxford, or into Abingdon - the Red Lion, Vic, Ken and I shared the same billet so we always were out together, not forgetting Fred Lacey and Colin Gray who we were also friendly with. November 1941 was flying from Abingdon with P/O Dodds, Flt/Sgt Rees and Flt/Sgt Griffin on air tests, instrument flying and air firing, getting off about 2,000 rounds, and my total flying hours now 23 hrs - not much!! Course completed had Christmas at home, and early January of 1942 was posted to number 50 Sqdn then stationed at RAF Swinderby Lincolnshire – [deleted] 1[/deleted] 8 miles from Lincoln, and the same distance from Newark the other way, Bassingham 2 miles away being our nearest village. We had a "pub" called the Halfway House [page break] 15 on the main road near by - and the "Fossway" [sic] some half mile further up the road towards Lincoln!! these were used quite often when free, not forgetting the "Black Swan" Basingham [sic] Aircraft on our sqdn were the "Hampden" 'flying pencils', with a crew of four!! although we had come to be crewed with the soon expected "Manchester" had the opertunity [sic] of flying on them if we wished - [smudged]some[/smudged] did, but I prefered [sic] to have a crew of my own and not do any spare bod flying - I considered this unlucky. Colin Gray, Fred Dacey came with me to this Sqdn - [smudged] Alan [/smudged] Mason and several other gunners I knew !! Vic Greenwood went to 44 Sqdn Stationed at Waddington and Ken Smith went to Binbrook on Wellingtons. Wing - Commander "Gus" Walker had been the C.O. of 50 Sqdn - his place having been taken by "Curly Oxley" D.S.O. D.F.C. "Gus" was a well known rugby player - but at his new station [deleted] ed [/deleted] !! Syerston near Newark some months later a 4,000lb bomb blew up, as [correction one letter deleted before as] he was going to investigate and he lost an arm, and I believe he his [sic] still in the service now, a [sic] "Air commodore" [page break] 16 and several times decorated. Things were pretty dull at first - and when a fellow aircrew got killed in a crash, and I was a bearer at his funiral [sic] with other Sgts it depressed me even more - and he was one of the many that were to lose thier [sic] lives in the battle for freedom!! God Bless them all. Time was creeping on when in March 1942 the Sqdn moved to Skillingthorpe [sic], because of runway repairs at Swinderby. The Manchesters had arrived and I was crewed with a Flying Officer Norman Goldsmith a Rhodesian, an exsperienced [sic] pilot - who had nearly finnished [sic] his 200 [deleted] hrs [/deleted] operational flying hours which were at that time considered a tour !! it was soon changed to trips afterwards There was no flight engineers or bomb aimers at that time, we had second pilots!! and the navigator went forward and dropped the bombs Our crew consisted of Norman, Terry [self-corrected] Tuinin [/self-corrected][Taerum?] a Canadian from Calgary - "Navigator", Colin Gray a Welchmen [sic], as mid-upper gunner, myself rear, and a chap from Norwich, wireless operator - cannot [page break] 17 recall his name !! hope he'll forgive me. And the second pilot Sgt Wiseman, or Lew Manser, a crew of six altold [sic]. We commenced flying together on the 23. 3. 42, doing local flying, crew training, alt [sic] test with 4,000lbs bombs. Our Gunnery Leader F/O Trevor-Roper!! and was in 'B' flight under S/LDR Everett, known as the "boy wonder" - on the 15. 4. 42 we did an N.F.T. (night flying test) and later attended my first briefing!! and my total hours now 34. Was very excited, our target was St Nazaire France, "Mine laying", or gardening as we called it, with four "Veg" "height 800ft"!! "Veg" meaning "Mines". A quiet trip which took 6hrs 15mins Let me explain to you some of the proceedings before flight. When arriving at your "Sqdn", you are put into "A" or"B" flight !! a Sqdn normaraly [sic] having two, and each Sqdn have sections for its aircrew - such as gunnery section, engineers - wireless, navigation ex, and a main crew room for all - and a[sic] officer in charge of each, usually a Flying Officer or Flt/Lt, and the flights under a Sqdn/Leader, a Wing commander over the "Sqdn" !! and "Group Captain" in [self-corrected] charge [/self-corrected] of the station. [page break] 18 During the day the C.O. ex [sic] are informed that so many aircraft will be required for operations!! the C.O. calls in his flight commanders ex [sic] - how many crews he'll need from each flight!! this done, a crew list is posted up in all departments - including the mess's On seeing your crew are on - the pilot gets in touch with all members of his crew to do a N.F.T. "night flying test", a short flight of a half an hour or so in which all equipment is [deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] tested for snags!! on landing and returned to your dispersal point - where all snags are reported to the waiting ground crew, Who [deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] will soon put them in order - also get the aircraft bombed up!! and the correct amount of petrol ex [sic]!! until briefing you are usually free - and mostly particulate [sic] in a game of cards ex. [sic] Then briefing which is held in a large room with a full scale map of all Europe on the wall - your route marked with coloured tape ex[sic]!! all information given by the specialist in turn, (weather - fighters - time of take off, and time due over target ex [sic]). Our target is Gardening off "Ameland" the evening of the 19.4.42, we are to carry four vegs and our hieght[sic] is to be 700ft. [page break] 19 After briefing you enjoy a good meal - collect your rations ex [sic] (chocolate, orange juice or oranges, chewing gum) and some half hour before take off you collect your flying clothing ex [sic] (lucky mascots) and proceed by transport to your dispersal point !! on arriving you wait arround [sic]- then you climb aboard, being rear gunner you see the ladder in and door firmly locked !! the pilot tests engines -after getting into your turret, leaving your chute safely in its place - locking your turret doors, load the four guns, check again everything - plug in intercom and report to skipper !! When time draws near you make for the runway in use - on arriving you call up for permission to take off!! this given, you turn onto the runway - clear engines, then the pilot [self-corrected] usually [/self-corrected] checks with all members that he is going to take off ex.[sic] With an all up wieght [sic] of around 65,000LBS you fill the power of the [smudged] engines [/smudged] as you roar down the runway, on reaching a speed of 110 MPH you leave the runway!! and you are now airbourne [sic] - hearing the pilot say under carriage and flaps up you give a sigh of relief, in the early days we set course over base and gained [smudged] height [sic/smudged] on route, testing your guns over the "North Sea", our bombing hieght [sic] never [page break] 20 much higher than 11,000FT, later all this was changed - we are now over the coast, and ask for permission to test guns - this given you fire a couple of short [smudged]bursts[/smudged] into the sea, report back guns OK to the skipper. And proceed looking the sky for enemy fighters ex, when the target area is reached - and your mines have been dropped you make haste back for base!! on arriving back at base, you join the circuit and call up for permission to land - when your turn comes - this is given, on landing you make for your dispersal where your [sic] met by the waiting ground crew, inform them any snags ex, the transport arrives and you are taken back to the crew room - park your flying cloths [sic] and atend [sic] the debriefing!! where you first enjoy a cup of tea, after debriefing you have a good meal, and so to bed !! April 22nd, an early N.F.T, briefing ex, gardening again!! this time Kiel Bay, 'Germany', our height 1,000Ft - with 3 veg [sic], a steady trip of 6hrs 25 mins. Manchester aircraft were terrible - infact [sic] death traps !! talk about the Lancaster coming soon? 44 Sqdn and another already had them, "Nettleton" - Wing - Commander of 44 Sqdn did a daring daylight to Augsburg with his Sqdn and the other, they suffered very heavy [page break] 21 lossis [sic], the raid was successful and Wing Commander Nettleton was awarded the Victoria Cross !! I still hadnt [sic] done a real bombing raid, but it was soon to come, Micky Martin and his crew, Dave Shannon and crew were also with us, later on Micky, Dave. their crews, Trevor-Roper our gunnery leader, and my navigator, and friend - Terry Teurum [sic] a Canadian from Calgary were to fly with Wing Commander Gibson V.C. D.S.O. D.F.C. on the now famous Dam-raid, on which Gibson won his Victoria Cross, Terry went has [sic] his navigator, and Trevor-Roper rear gunner. Norman had one more trip to do - and wondered who would be our new pilot? we managed a little local flying - and on the 24th April 1942 we did an N.F.T, briefing later ex. Our first - or rather my first bombing raid, it was to be 'Rostock Germany' our second pilot of that night was F/O L.T. Manser, "Lew" as we called him - like Norman and the others [self-corrected] was [/self-corrected] one of the best !! and I wondered if we were to be his crew when Norman left. Our take off was to be 22.00 hrs with a bomb load of 14 250LB INCD [self-corrected]bombs[/self-corrected] Our aircraft Manchester L7432 was all ready when [page break] 22 we arrived at our dispersal point about half an hour before take off - we talked a little, and then climbed aboard - with everyone in !! I closed the door and made for my turret at the rear, having parked my chute ex [sic] got into my turret and closed the turret doors, pluged [sic] in my intercom checked my turret over again - mean while Norman & Lew were running the engines, afterwards checking with all the crew that everything ['g' overwritten] was alright, we then made for the runway in use !! I was completing the loading of my four guns. We made a good take off - heard Norman say undercarriage and flaps ups [sic]!! and check time ex [sic] with Terry our navigator !! pin pointed over drome and set course for Germany, out over the North sea I asked permission to test guns - making sure no ships near first, then fired a couple of bursts, reporting back guns O.K. "Skipper" Having gained over 3,000 ft oxygen on, also switched on my electrical jacket - we didn't have a full length at that time, I usually had a blanket around my legs to help [deleted] indecipherable letter [/deleted] keep out the cold and three pairs of gloves - plus flying boots and long socks, and ervin [sic] jacket over my electrical, [smudged] may [sic][ /smudged] west and parachute harnest [sic] [page break] [Photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1501-0026+PCruickshankG1501-0027 "Rostock" Germany 24th April 1942 Fires, still burning among about 61/2 acres of workshops at Neption [?] shipbuilding [page break] 23 and believe me very little room to move, for I was close on [self-corrected] fourteen [/self-corrected] stone. My job was defence, and I believe in a continuous search for enemy fighters from base to target to base, a tail gunners job is a very lonely one - and at times very depressing - you had to know your aircraft well - also wings spans, this was most important if attacked. Sometimes, the navigator would ask for a drift reading, this was done by you!! the wireless “opp” [sic] or another member dropping a smoke float on to the sea - you line your guns on it!! and read the drift seals on the side of your turret ex [sic], so many degrees just on starboard and inform the “Nav”. We were getting near the target - and felt it, and when I heard them say the target was in view - and Jerry going down in the nose to drop the bomb I was keyed up beyond words!! guess we all were? Bomb doors open!! Jerry saying left left steady ex [sic] - then bombs away, felt the sudden uplift as they went and felt much relieved!! for we were only 5,000 FT the searchlights and flak getting dangerously near a [sic] we weaved to get out - I noticed some very large fires burning below!! but much to [sic] close for me. [from previous page] ton shipbuilding’ yards, day after our bombs Command raid [/from previous page] [page break] 24 getting clear we set course for base - after what seemed endless hours we crossed the English coast and Jim [?] pointed to base, joined the circuit and called up to land!! when our time came we landed and headed for our dispersal - I was busy unloading my guns!! and by the time our dispersal was gained I was done - and out of my turret with the fuselage door open breathing the cool night air. Having reported any snags ex [sic] to the waiting ground crew - bless emm [?], we were taken back to the crew-room, parking your flying clothing ex [sic] and made for the de-briefing room - where you enjoyed a hot drink first!! reporting ex [sic] the raid and having completed made to your mess and after a good meal you made for bed. The raid was very successful - and took 7 hrs 45 mins. Norman had now finished - and was later awarded the D.F.C.!! but unfortunately was killed some months later on starting his second tour of operations. I was now without a pilot, life [overwritten] was mostly cards, tossing two pennies - learnt off my [/overwritten] [page break] [picture missing] [inserted] About to take off at night inserted [/inserted] [page break] 25 Aussie friends - and beer ex [sic] and crap game!! I remember sometimes playing for days on end, only stopping for meals ex!! Poker being a popular game - which included dealers choise [sic]!! sometimes winning - and of course losing too, life then was always a gamble anyway. Once playing straight poker - "nothing wild” with Fred Dacey [?], who was in the same class at gunnery school, also one of my closest friend [sic]"!! Spam Spafford and Joby Jenon [?] - two Aussies, also Micky Martins [sic] gunners, myself and another. I drew four Queens - a lucky draw, which I kept without changing the fifth card – watched’ what the others drew ex!! thought I was a certain winner, and went the haul hog - unfortunately Fred had drawn two more Kings to the pair he held already, and of course I went out broke!! It was now early May - and was due 14 days leave. Mother had been bombed out completely some while before - but [smudged] escaped [/smudged] unhurt thank goodness. My wireless "opp” [sic] friend took me home to his home in Norwich - just our luck, first night there Jerry made the first bombing raid on Norwich and upset things a little, his folks made me welcome and I [page break] 26 enjoyed myself pretty well under the circumstances. We returned to Skellingthorpe late May and found Lew had taken over another crew and was operating as a first pilot - unfortunately I was down with cold!! and [sic] a pilot named Calvert [?], a [smudged] pilot [/smudged] officer from New-Zealand [sic] came to 50 sqdn and took over our crew!! Colin Gray my friend and co gunner keeping my place in the crew free for my return. It is May 30th 1942, we still had the Manchesters - plenty of excitement, for it was to be the first thousand bomber raid, and the target "Cologne" Everyone was on - except me, I was sick unfortunately!! Roy my pilot ran into trouble over Cologne, and came back on one engine - he was awarded the D.F.C. and Colin Gray the D.F.M a little later, but Lew also had trouble, but what courage!! It was some weeks afterwards that the story of his most conspicuous bravery was told by members of the crew - yes, they had come back to England, via Gibraltar in the record time of 21 days!! As I said before Lew had taken over another crew after leaving us - and what a pilot [smudged] he [/smudged] was, [page break] [Picture missing]- PCruickshankG1501-0016+PCruickshankG1501-0017 Cologne after first 1,000 Bomber raid 1942. [page break] 27 As the aircraft was approaching its objective it was caught by searchlights and subjected to intense and accurate anti-aircraft fire (Flak) Flying Officer Manser held on his dangerous course and bombed the target successfully from an [sic] height of 7,000 FT. Then set course for base. The Manchester had been damaged and was still under heavy fire. Flying Officer Manser took violent evasive action, turning and descending to under 1,000 FT, it was of no avail. The searchlights and flak followed him until the outskirts of the city were passed, the aircraft was hit repeatedly and the rear gunner wounded. The front cabin filled with smoke; the port engine was over-heating badly [sic] Pilot and crew could of [sic] have escaped safely’ by parachute. Nevertheless, Flying Officer Manser disregarding the obvious hazards, persisted in his attemp [sic] to save aircraft and crew from falling into enemy hands. He took the aircraft up to 2,000 FT. Then the port engine burst into flames it was ten minutes before the fire was mastered, but then the engine went out of action for good, part of the wing burnt, and the air-speed of the aircraft became dangerously low [sic] Despite all the efforts of pilot and crew, [page break] 28 The Manchester began to lose height; at this critical moment, Flying Officer Manser once more disdained the alternative of parachuting to safety with his crew. Instead, with grim determination, he set course for the nearest base, accepting for himself the prospect of almost certain death in a firm resolve to carry on to the end. Soon, the aircraft became extremely difficult to handle and, when a crash was inevitable, Flying Officer Manser ordered the crew to bale out, a Sergeant handed him a parachute - but he waved it away, telling him to jump at once as he could only hold the aircraft steady for a few more seconds while the crew were descending to safety they saw the aircraft, still carrying their gallant captain, [smudged] plunge [/smudged] to earth and burst into flames. In pressing home his attack in the face of strong opposition, in striving, against heavy odds, to bring back his aircraft and crew and, finally, when in extreme peril, thinking only of the safety of his comrades, Flying Officer Manser displayed determination and valour or the highest order. Flying Officer Leslie Thomas Manser, R.A.F.V.R. 50 Sqdn was awarded the "Victoria Cross" "Posthumously" [sic] [page break] 29 It is now late June and we are back at Swinderby. Leave again - yes!! this was quite frequent for aircrew. I went to North Shields to see my Brother [sic] and his wife - and an enjoyable time too. It was early July, Terry and I shared a room together in the "Sgts mess", we were getting the new Lancasters!! did two local bombing flights on the Manchesters with Roy - then they were grounded, and we started flying the "Lancs" on cross countries N.F.T., local beam flying, dark landings ex [sic] and bombing!! Colin Gray had become our bomb aimer, Bert Braned [?] engineer, Alan Connor, an Australian as wireless operator mid-upper gunner, Lew Auston, wireless operator another Aussie, Roy Calvert pilot, and after Terry left - [smudged] "Sears [/smudged] or Stevens, and later Medina, our navigators in turn, and myself rear gunner. It was July 25th when we did an N.F.T. and attended briefing for our first raid together on the "Lancs" our aircraft was 'S' for sugar 5702 - which we kept to its end - and nearly ours too!! Our target was "Duisburg" load one 4,000 lb bomb and [self-corrected] incendiaries [/self-corrected]. [page break] 30 a [sic] good raid - much better than the Manchester aircraft, it took us 4 hrs 20 mins. Next evening found ourselves on again - this time "Hamburg", load 1, 4,000 LB and 6, 500 LB, 2, 250 LB. Another good do, time 5 hrs 30 mins. on [sic] the 31st July we are doing some formation flying - plus an N.F.T. Later attending briefing, our target "Dusseldorf", load 1, 4000 LB and [self-corrected] incendiaries [/self-corrected], plenty of life - but we missed it, bombed at 10,500 FT time 4 hrs 30 mins [sic] August 3rd another N.F.T, briefing ex!![sic] Mine Laying Kiel Bay. "5 Veg", lucky night - shot up enemy gun post. time [sic] 6 hrs 10 mins [sic] Free till the 6th then on again - this time "Duisburg" load 1, 4,000 LB and 30 LB [smudged] incendiaries [/smudged], Cloudy - bombed on T.R. 3 hrs 25 mins N.F.T. on the 9th briefing target "Osnabrück" cookie & incends [sic] "Special stooge" [sic] Meaning, we had to fly around afterwards!! not a job I liked, when I heard over intercom - those relieving words, bomb doors open!! and bombs away, I liked to get the hell out of it!! 31 The raid was good and took 4 hours – 9 days leave again!! Yes, our leave for aircrew was around 64 days a year!! often more, believe me well earnt [sic] for ther [sic]were always a flow of new faces around, the comradeship of all was first class, with both aircrew and ground crews!! who I must say worked hard to keep aircraft serviceable - and on duty at all hours – to them, and my fellow aircrew, “I say God Bless you all” Returning from leave, a little fighter affiliation, N.F.T.s, August 24th briefing – our target “Frankfurt” load 1,4,000lb & 10 cans 30lb incendiaries – time 5hrs 20mins. Couple of nights out with the lads in Lincoln – plenty of beer!! on 27th August, formation flying and NFT, later briefing ex[sic]. Target “Kassel” usual load, quiet trip of 5hrs 30mins. Again on 28th Target “Nuremburg” but bombed Augsburg instead!! how, I really dont [sic] know!! time 7 hrs. Bomber Command, under Air Marshal A.T. Harris was really getting down to it now – and many aircraft, and those fine lads who flew them was [sic] to go missing!! Germany had to be well and truly bombed at all costs – all well and good for some!! for, they did’nt [sic] have to go. [page break ] 32 All my friends were to go - and thousands and thousands of others too. September came in with a “bang” 1st Sept, Air to Sea firing, an N.F.T. briefing ex – our target “Saarbrϋcken”, load 1,4000lb and 10 cans 30lb incendiaries. Somehow the (P.F.F.) pathfinders marked “Saarlous” [sic] instead and that was wiped out!! time 5hrs 25mins. Again on the 2nd , briefing ex, “Karlsrune” [sic] the target, usual bomb and petrol load – time 5hrs 35mins. One night off, then briefing on 4th Sept this time Bremen is the target, load 5, 1900LB H.E. Bombed F.W. Factory - good raid!! 5hrs 15mins 6th Sept Visit to Waddington, back to base, N.F.T. briefing, target “Duisburg” , load 1,4000lb 12 cans 30lb incendiaries – uneventful, 4hrs 5mins. Two nights out in town, N.F.T. on the 8th briefing, target Frankfϋrt, usual load, cault [sic] in searchlights [smudged] searchlights [/smudged] over target – flak to [sic] close for my liking!! after ages we managed to get clear, time 5hrs 55mins (“Shaky do” far to [sic] many searchlights) One free evening, briefing ex, target “Dusseldorf” load 1,4000lb 8, cans 30lb incendiaries – “Bang on” 3hrs 45mins [page break ] 33 Next two days N.F.T. ex [sic] 13th briefing, “Bremen” 1,4000lb 12 cans 30lb incendiaries “4 flares “ – good trip – 4hrs 20 Again on 14th briefing ex [sic], “Wilhelmshaven” usual load – 4 flares. 4hrs 35mins “Essen” again on the 16th Sept – usual load!! 4hrs 55mins Thank God a few clear nights!! But not for long, 23rd find us on an N.F.T. briefing, low attack on “Wismar”, Aeroplane factories of J.U.88 & Dorniers, bombing at 2000FT – cault [sic] by light flak, port centre tank hit – port tail fin!! to [sic] damn close returned fire freely. Time 7hrs 15mins. “Sqdn” moved back to Skellingthorpe again – Swinderby being turned into a “con” training unit!! Heard my friend Ken Smith had gone missing!! poor Ken, he was one of the best. Next few days plenty of flying – low level formations, fighter affiliation – bombing ex [sic]. October the 12th we have a change of aircraft – “R” for “roger” (ours being overhauled. N.F.T. ex our target is “Wismar” again [page break] 34 Height 5,500FT, load 14 cans of 30lb incendiaries – time 6hrs 40mins “good raid” My friend of gunnery school Fred Dacey had gone missing – [smudged] how [/smudged] I miss his cheerful ways!! Fred and I had been the closest of friends. 14th October briefing again – “Kiel” is the target, load one, 4000lb 12 cans of 4lb incendiaries. good trip of 5hrs 25mins Free for a day or so – out again to Lincoln!! 17th October 1942, find [/self-corrected] usual [self-corrected] early briefing for the exspected [sic] “daylight raid”. The target is “Le creucot [sic] France our commanding officer [smudged] w/cdr [/smudged] Oxley D.S.O. D.F.C. said after briefing now chaps ‘don’t [sic] go mingling with the traffic in the streets, when passing large Cities [sic] or Towns!! this was a low level attack of 94 Lancasters, our bombing HT. 7,200FT bomb load 5, 1.000lb GPs . We took off 12.05, and after formating flew South out into the bay of ” Biscay “ turned into St Nazaire, it was as we crossed the French coast at a little above roof tops I noticed a French farmer ploughing his field with a “pig” What a laugh that was – the weather [page break ] 35 was grand – lucky no enemy fighter about!! after bombing at dusk, made our way back to base time 10hrs 20mins to [sic] damn long. My other friend Vic Greenwood, who was flying from Waddington had gone missing – “gee” only myself of us four left!! We had a new W/cdr, Russell – nice chap too!! Oct 22, briefed for our first Italian raids, “Genoa”, load 2, 1,000LB bombs H.P.s, 6 cans incendiaries, what a trip!! lovely passing over the “Alps”, we bombed at 7,000ft, a round trip of 9hrs 40mins – Landed at Waterbeach Oct 23 returned to Base 24th October, briefing very early again – another Daylight [sic], this time Milan Italy, load 12 cans of 4lb incendiaries, our take off time 12.20 It being a low level afair [sic] – excepting of course the crossing of the Alps. Having had our flying meal, collected rations ex [sic], we made for our usual dispersal – ‘S’ for “sugar”, it was a grand October morning – after a short chat, climbed aboard, locking the door after [page break] [Photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1501-0018+PCruickshankG1501-0019 “Genoa Italy” Damage in Ansaldo fitting out yard after raids in late 1942 [written down left hand side of page] 36 pulling in the ladder, making my way back to my turret in the rear!! see my chute ex safely stowed I got in – pluged [sic] in my intercom, over which was going on a lot of talking ex!! loading my four “Brownings “ – checking the gunsights & lights, oxygen ex, I checked the intercom with the Skipper – Roy, had been running in the engines meanwhile. We took off at 12.20, and formated a little later at the arranged time and place – afterwards heading South towards “Selsey Bill” nr Portsmouth where we were to pick up our escort [deleted] of fighters!! who would go with us part of the way across France, it was grand sight!! 84 Lancasters flying at roof tops. After the departure of the fighters – luckaly [sic] it was cloudy!! so the formations broke up making our own way towards the Italian Alps, on arriving we gained height – then going over, looking out – not only for fighters , but also our own lads!! Over the Alps we came down to low level again making for Milan – it was a lovely clear sky, everyone was excited, I can picture us now arriving at Milan – people running, as we went down the main street [page break] [photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1501-0020+PCruickshankG1501-0021 Milan Italy. After Daylight raid 24th October 1942 [written down left hand side of page] 37 with bomb doors open – and hundreds 4lb incendiaries droped [sic] among the buildings!! With bomb doors closed we flew clear of Milan, where seeing a train we went in and I give it a burst or two with my Brownings, a gun post [self-corrected] opened [/self-corrected] up on us – but soon stopped when I played four guns on them !! making our way towards the Alps – gaining height as we went – and was crossing them as the sun was setting, and the moon rising, a most beautiful sight of colours over the snow covered tops. Arriving back at base a few hours later, joining the circuit - after landing, reporting for debriefing – a meal, and so to bed once again!! time 9hrs 20mins. “A really good trip” Heard that my brother Reg had been torpedoed in H.M.S. Dunedin, near the equator in mid Atlantic Ocean, [self-corrected] by [/self-corrected] a Germany “Sub”, out of just under 700 men that [deleted] indecipherable letter [/deleted] got onto rafts ex – only 64 survived!! Thank God he was one, but what an ordeal they must of [sic] suffered – apart from the heat, Baracuda [sic] fish – who jump out of the water and take bights [sic] of you, sea sore, [?] no water to drink ex [sic] for 3 days and 4 nights of hell, my brother swimming among sharks tying the rafts together – so they wouldn’t drift apart – and get a mention in dispatches. [page break] 38 It is early November of 1942, informed of my award of the “Distinguished Flying Medal” called for a few beers ex [sic] Joyce my wife now – was very pleased too, unfortunately she was to lose her Mother very soon afterwards. Nov 6th W/cdr [sic] Russell DFC required me as his rear, we were briefed, our target again Italy, “Genoa” [self-corrected] Usual [/self-corrected] load – full petrol ex [sic], a really bang on do, but again to [sic] damn long 10hrs 15mins. 7th November found myself on again – back with my own crew, I didn’t really mind for I was nearly finnished [sic], we had briefing – again “Genoa” Italy!! Usual load – plus full petrol load, really on the mark again!! it was while on one of the Italian trips that when we returned to our base – two of Waddingtons [sic] Lancs crashed into one another and blew up!! poor devils, I watched them go – a most heart breaking [self-corrected] sight, our circuit, and that of Waddingtons were very close together. Our time 8hrs 30mins The 9th Nov 1942, My [sic] wifes [sic] Mother’s funeral – she had died a few days before, it was also my last raid of my first tour!! and nearly our last altogether. Having attended briefing – our target was to [page break] [Photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1503 Sgt Alan Conner F/o Power Self Sgt Wilson Taken after crash landing. “Bradwell Bay” After Hamburg raid 9th November 1942 Wireless operator Sgt Lew Austin R.A.A.F. being killed Pilot, F/O Calvert, R.N19.A.F wounded Navigator, Sgt Medina RAF wounded. [page break] 39 be “Hamburg”. Our crew was now changed a bit, Colin Gray our bomb aimer, had completed his tour – his place taken by a Sgt Wilson, Bert Branch was stood down – to enable a pilot to get experience, before taking his own crew on operations, his name F/O Power!! Our Navigator was a Sgt Medina, Lew Austin, Wireless operator, Alan Conner, mid-upper gunner, self rear – and Roy Calvert pilot. The raid, was to be a nuisance raid!! only 5 Group, which we were in, particulating [sic] of just over 100 bombers – usual load ex.[sic] In our own “S” for sugar aircraft. On arriving around the target area, it turned out to be about 9/10’s cloud, we couldn’t pin-point our correct position, and seeing some searchlights some miles from us – Roy asked the “Nav” if that could be Hamburg, he said no – deciding to go over and bomb them!! arriving the bomb aimer said lovely built up area below in the break though [sic] of cloud, so having said bomb doors open – started our run in!! but held in far to [sic] long, when the whole aircraft shook as we were the main target for them – We had been hit badly, the intercom going out of action – Roy weaving, diving, doing everything to get [page break] [Photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1504+PCruickshankG1505 [Underlined] Bradwell [\Underlined] After Hamburg 1942, showing self, P/O Power, Sgt Wilson, Sgt Conner. Both Power and Wilson going down on a later raid. [page break] 40 clear, I felt completely cut off – for without the intercom you were an isolated spot, the others could at least see each other!! After what seemed hours – a knock on my turret doors, Alan had brought a message from Roy to come forward!! no use staying, for my guns were u/s anyway. Alan informed me the Navigator was wounded – also Roy, and that Lew was unconscious!! I noticed the aircraft was full of holes as I went forward behind Alan – going first to see the Skipper and Navigator, returned to see Lew, feeling his pulse – thought him still alive, and got him to the rest bed position, laying him down, his head on my lap, Alan set to with trying to fix the wireless ex!! but it was hopeless. With no means of contacting base or the ground, we made for the English coast – arriving around the essex [sic] coast, where Roy flew in a triangular route – to inable [sic] the observor [sic] corps to plot our position!! they would know we were in difficulties and inform the searchlights in our area – who would show us the way to the nearest drome, lighting up the runway and enabling us to make a crash landing on “Bradwell Bay” near Chelmsford. [page break] 41 Roy made a pretty good crash landing there!! I tried to upon [sic] the door – but excitement must of [sic] got the better of me, so I used the axe to break upon [sic] the lock, always found myself using that anyway. Luckaly [sic] no fires started – The “Doc” who was aready [sic] on the spot – informed us that Lew Austin had been killed instantly, Roy and Medina were taken to Hospital, not hurt seriously thank goodness – and would soon be out again, as for me – well I was a bundle of nerves. Bomber Command had photos taken of our aircraft – for believe me it was [sic] mass of holes, our flying time was 5 hrs 35 mins!! of which I shall never forget. Now that I had done operational flying – I was granted forteen [sic] days leave when back at base!! Mother was, at that time living at “Barry” – so I spent a week there, and the remainder at my sister-in-laws at North Shields. I was posted after to 11 O.T.U Westcott, near Aylesbury as a gunnery instructor. Colin was at “Upper Heyford”, Roy was awarded a bar to his D.F.C, Alan Conner a D.F.M, the navigator a D.F.M the others nothing!! Wilson and Power both went missing shortly [page break] 42 after Hamburg, Bert Branch, [deletion] indecipherable word [/deletion] some while after to [sic] went down over enemy territory. Roy and Alan completed flying, Roy going as an instructor at Swinderby, Alan to another station. It is early 1943, I have made friends with some grand lads at Westcott, some Canadians – New-Zealanders and Assies!! [sic] who like myself enjoyed a game of “poker” Colin was going to Buckingham Palace, I went down thier [sic] too, Met his Mother and friend of his family!! had a real enjoyable time together before my return to camp. Had made a close friend of a Canadian FLT/SGT named [smudged] Wetheral [/smudged], from “Ottawa”, some people in Aylesbury who we had made their home open to us at all times – him and I, and George Cleary a Canadian from Montreal, often staying there – and once when visiting Aylesbury with my wife, we called in to see them. I did a little flying on Wellington’s [sic], but my nerves were still shaky, so on reporting sick I was grounded. [page break] 43 The weeks skipping by now, and it was early March that I received news my investure [sic] at the Palace was for March the 16th 1943, Informing Colin – who said he would come – also my brother Henry, my wife, we arrived the evening before!! my wife and I staying at a Hotel near [smudged] Tottenham Court [/smudged] Road. On the day of the investure [sic], before going, we enjoyed a drink – arriving at the Palace gate in good time, having only two invitations!! Colin waited at the gate, like I had when he was invested. We give our tickets – duly signed by the Lord Chamberlain, stamped ex [sic] 16th March 1943 at the gate – who tore off the end piece and gave us back the remainder! Making for the investure [sic] Hall, my wife unfortunately wasn’t wearing a hat – and was stopped from going in by those on duty [smudged] there [/smudged], because of no hat, fortunately one of the staff let her have a scarf to put over her hair – she was then amitted. [sic] Everything inside was organised to the detail, rooms for all to go in, from the V.C downwards ex [sic] – each in your turn being put in your seniority, so when the King arrived and the investure [sic] started – when the Lord Chamberlain called out the number, rank, and name [page break] [Photograph missing] Sgt Colin Gray and self, after investure [sic] 1943. [page break] 44 who evers [sic] turn it was – it was him and no other!! you already had a miniture [sic] hook fastened on your breast already [sic] for the King to hang your medal on – So let us now carry on, soft music is being played in the background – the investure [sic] is on!! My turn came round the Lord Chamberlain, calling out 629128 Sgt George Cruickshank, Bomber Command. Turning towards the King, bowing, one pace forward, the King hooks on your medal – shakes hands, one pace backward, bow again, and turn off the opposite way – someone takes off your medal, put [smudged] it in a box [/smudged] box and return [sic] it back to you. Of course my name is Gordon - not George, so although the Lord Chamberlain made that mistake I took very little notice!! for the honour was great, and the formalities thrilling to worry about that. On leaving Buckingham Palace, my wife, Henry and Colin, myself, enjoyed a good meal and a drink or two, later going to the “Apollo” Shaftsbury Avenue to see Terence Rattigans [sic] “Flare Path” The next day we returned home, my wife and I, [smudged] were [/smudged] still living with her Father at Nettleham [page break] [Photograph missing] Card playing at Westcott showing F/O Pattison R.C.A.F, self, and F/Sgt Jack Waters R.N.A.F. [Photograph missing] Self and Bob Wetheral at a friend’s house in Aylesbury. [page break] 45 On my return to Westcott, found little change – my old cardpals were still there!! Bob Weatheral recieved [sic] news of his award of the D.F.M., so it called for beer all round. April came and my flt/sgt [sic], which was overdue anyway!! the exstra [sic] money came in very useful – things were nearly always the same, card playing with Jack Waters, a New-Zealander, F/O Pattison, George Cleary - and Bob, and myself – or into the “Red Lion” of Aylesbury beer drinking. Heard Terry Tuerum [sic], Trevor Roper, had crewed up with Gibson!! also with them was Micky Martin and crew – except Toby Temon [?], for he had been killed awhile beforehand, not forgetting Dave Shannon & crew – and others from different Squadrons, had come to Scampton to form a new Squadron to be called 617, and train for special bombing at low level - my wife and I lived only a mile or so from Scampton. So when home on leave in May of 1943, Lincoln was where we mostly went – and while in Lincoln, my wife and I met Terry, the day after the Dam [sic] raid!! he told me about it – and how succesful [sic] it had been, thier [sic] aircraft having only one hole in it. [page break] [photograph missing] [written vertically down on left side of page] Bob Wetheral’s investure [sic] 1943 [page break] 46 Shortly after, W/cdr [sic] Gibson, was awarded the Victoria Cross, to the D.S.O. D.F.C. he held already, he left 617 Squadron – and his crew, were taken over by another pilot, they were killed on a raid over enemy territory later My leave over, I returned to Westcott – and enjoyed myself card playing ex [sic], Bob was going up to London for his investure [sic] – so I went along too, we stayed with some friends of his, they looked [smudged] after us [/smudged] very well indeed, on the day of the investure [sic] we all met – including Bobs [sic] brother who was in the army, and some people from near his old station near Grantham. We made our way over to the Palace – and waited at the gates till it was over!! then a photo near by [sic], was arranged – of course I kept off, thought I was intruding, in his excitement Bob never noticed – he did, when the photos came later – he was furious with me. Bob had taken to a New Zealander, a Sqn/Ldr name [sic] Frazer-Barron D.S.O. D.F.C. D.F.M., and said when he returned to operations he would take Bob as his gunner.[smudged] [self-corrected] Time [/self-corrected] was creeping on now, and July 27th 1943 – had a telegram to say I was a Father, a boy of 8½ lb [page break] [photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1501-0006+PCruickshankG1501-0007 [caption - written vertically on LHS of page presumably for landscape orientation of photo] Moehne Dam. The breach of about 200 ft width in the Moehne Dam. May 1943 Raid by 617 Squadron. [page break] 47 who we called Richard. This of course called for a drink or two in the “Red Lion” “Aylesbury” August came, and things were about the same, I was feeling a little steadier – thought I would see if I could get myself passed fit again, and return to operations. Having a medical later at number 1 C.M.B London, and was passed fit aircrew again, within a week was posted to Woolfox Lodge, near Stamford – a convertion [sic] unit, before going to a Squadron. On arriving found it a convertion [sic] unit for “Stirlings” - which I thought terrible, and applied for a Lancaster convertion [sic] unit!! Meanwhile I used to hitch hike home – a night out in Stamford, remember before leaving we had the singer Monti [sic] Ray at our mess!! when I was posted to Swinderby – which made me a lot happier, found on my arrival, that they knew nothing about me, so I was sent back again to Woolfox – them in turn sending me back to Swinderby, by this time I was feeling feed [sic] up and when [sic] before [smudged] S/Ldr [/smudged] Everett – and he informed me that I was to fill a place in a pupil crew, I was far from being myself - Asked him, if I have to return with a [page break] [photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1501-0008+PCruickshankG1501-0009 [heading] 617 Squadron [/heading] [caption - written vertically on LHS of page presumably for landscape orientation of photo] Elder [sic] Dam The south-east end of the storage lake with the dam breached between the two valve houses at a point about 400 ft from its western end. Water is still pouring through the gap flowing fast downstream towards Kassel [page break] 48 pupil crew - was it possible to go to 44 Sqdn!! If the others were agreeable it would be arranged – I asked them, and next day we were on our way to 44 Sqdn – now at Dunholme Lodge a mile and a half from home. F/o Terry Fynn,[?] was a Rhodesian – 44 Sqdn, was a Rhodesian Squadron, so it suited Terry fine. I took him home with me, also the lads to our village locals!! but our crew were to be illfated [sic], when it came to flying. W/cdr [sic] Nettleton V.C. had been the c.o. of 44 Sqdn, but he had gone down on a raid – his place, being taken by W/cdr [sic] Bowes!! we were in “a” flight under S/Ldr Lynch, started flying for the first time on October 16th 1943. It was October the 22nd when we did an N.F.T. and later briefing – our target “Kassel” After our flying meal ex [sic], we made for our aircraft 'K' for King at the far side of the drome!! Everyone was keyed up, including myself – and wondered how this crew would shape up to things!! with everyone aboard – I was mid-upper gunner, thought a change from flying rear, engines were [page break] 49 running up - got my intercom pluged [sic] in, my guns loaded and turret rechecked – called up Skipper for checking intercom!! then sat back waiting for them to make for the runway in use and take off!! We made a good take off – and undercarriage and flaps up ex [sic], flew to Nottingham and back gaining height – height reached, we set course over base. Having gained the French Coast, our navigator, a Sgt, broke the silence by saying he could'nt [sic] coup [sic]!! well, well, Terry asking me for my advice - had a talk with the Navigator in respect to time, and how much off route ex [sic], and said to Terry it would be wise to drop our bombs in the sea and find our way back to base!! this we did. On landing at base, we were before the c.o.!! after we exsplained [sic] the trouble – our navigator was asked what his excuse was, he said he thought of my wife and son – nice maybe, but I like to do the worrying on thier [sic] behalf, not any members of my crew!! he was later reduced to the ranks – time airbourne [sic] 2 hrs 15 mins [page break] 50 Things were'nt [sic] quite the same as before I noticed, bombing heights were nearly twice that of my first tour No pigeons now, and a thing called “window” was dropped when over enemy territory, this was to mess up enemy radar screens ex [sic]. Also height was reached before setting course for the target – and not gained on [sic] route. Which meant the testing of guns was now out of the question!! I liked to test mine, for I will always remember the time we had been on twice, and was unable to clean my own guns due to the fact of needing my sleep ready for the next raid. So my guns were done by someone else, when we had taken off and was clear of the English coast – I asked for permission to fire my guns, when I tried doing so – nothing happened, this I repeated!! on inspecting them closely I noticed the breach blocks werent [sic] touching the firing pins – which meant all my breach blocks were in the wrong guns, by now I was sweating – [page break] 51 But set too [sic] to change them, which was a slow job – what with taking off my gloves – doing a little, putting them on again to warm up my hands, looking the sky for enemy night fighters, your [sic] understand why I had only two guns servicable [sic] by the time we reached the target area!! and after bombing, the lads wanting to come down for a little shoot up – that I wasn't at all pleased about it, for I liked to have all my guns in working order – incase [sic] we run into trouble, and didnt [sic] believe in looking for it. Anyway I didn't let on, but believe me I was blessing someone for thier [sic] careless mistake, which could of [sic] easaly [sic] cost us our lives, had I not checked them. Also the gunners [sic] flying cloths [sic] were different now, and a new suit had been issued, which I took an instant dislike too [sic], far to [sic] bulky when on, and you sweated terrible – until you reached a reasonable height to cool off, and a hell of a job getting in and out of your turret, often wondered if you would manage it – if in a hurry. Also the temperature was often -50, or 50 below [page break] [Photograph missing] -PCruickshankG1501-0024+PCruickshankG1501-0025 After Berlin Raid late 1943 [written down left hand page margin] [page break] 52 as some would say, and not [self-corrected] unusual [/self-corrected] to keep clearing your oxygen tube and mouth piece [deleted] indecipherable word[/deleted] of ice which formed there. Shortly after being at Dunholme Lodge, I was made warrant officer - this was unusual in respect to gunners in the R.A.F. at that time, only got as high as FLT/SGTs [sic] - warrant officer, being newly introduced, barring of course commissioned gunners. We were free up to November 3rd 1943, being so near home - I was home whenever possible, [sic] Our target for that night was Dusseldorf. Having had briefing ex [sic], half an hour before take off - we proceeded to our dispersal point, still K for King on the far side of the drome. Things went fine on this trip and our time was 4hrs 35mins - fairly good bombing. The next [self-corrected] fourteen [/self-corrected] days consisted of a height test, 26.500 FT, fighter affiliation at Digby, and N.F.T.s 18th November find [sic] us being briefed for “Berlin” usual bomb and petrol load, a really good raid _ time 8hrs 35mins Bar a couple of short flights we were free up to November 26th [page break] [photograph missing] -PCruickshankG1501-0004+PCruickshankG1501-0005 Visit of Southern Rhodesian Premier to Rhodesian Squadron 1944 [written down right hand page margin] [page break] 53 At briefing, we find our target is again “Berlin” After take off, and well on our way, we had trouble from the rear gunner, complaining about his turret ex [sic] – Terry was really fed up, I said nothing - Terry decided to return to base!! We had been airbourne [sic] 3hrs 25mins I wondered what would happen now, and it was not long after when Terry said to me that he was going to take over another crew, and he was sorry in respect to me - but I said don’t worry about me Terry, I’ll ring up my old pilot at Swinderby and see if he’s returning!! Christmas soon came, and the new year too!! Had given Roy a ring in respect to myself - and received the pleasent [sic] news he was returning as flight commander of 630 Sqdn East Kirkby, and would try and get me posted to his crew - I was to leave it to him. Before leaving Dunholme we had an aircraft crash into the Sgts mess, luckaly[sic] the mess was empty - but the crew were’nt [sic] that fortunate, they were all blown to pieces over a large area - poor divels[sic][page break] 54 Early January of 1944, I was doing very little - mostly home, and going into Lincoln having a few beers, often heard the odd line shoot!! one in particular - A bomb aimer was saying we were just coming up to the target ex [sic], and going on saying bomb - doors open!! left-left, steady, hold it, and suddenly he broke the silence by saying - back abit [sic]!! On the 12th, had word I was to proceed to R.A.F. station Syerston- to be crewed with my old skipper, Roy Calvert - now D.F.C. and bar, and also a Squadron/Leader On my arrival we [two letters crossed out] did two flight - ex 19, Searchlight Co-op, and ex 21, a Bullseye - a total of 7hrs 30mins night flying!! and on the 15th January we proceeded on our way to 630 Sqdn East Kirkby near Boston Lincolnshire, and still in 5 Group of Bomber - Command.[sic] Our crew were Roy - pilot, Sgt Hogg, bomb - aimer, Flt/Sgt Mooney, Engineer, Sgt Freeman, rear gunner, Alan Conner, Pilot Officer, as wireless operator!! who of course had also been with us on our first tour, F/O Beauvain [?], Navigator, a Canadian, and myself as mid-upper gunner. So we had one New-Zealander, two Aussie’s, and one Canadain[sic], [deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] three Englishmen. [page break] 55 630 Sqdn was under W/cdr[sic] Bill Deas [?], who was on his third tour, we were in “B” flight under our own pilot - who was flight commander. I soon settled down, and having done a few hours flying “Y” training and air to sea firing, plus another “Bullseye”. We were briefed for “Berlin”- our bomb load 11,400 lbs, and correct amount of petrol required, for although we could carry 21.050 gallons-you could only get that on long trips ex [sic] - sometimes you were topped up just before taking off. It is the evening of January 27th 1944,when we took off - gained height ex [sic], and set course over base for “Berlin” - plenty of weaving, and searchlights in there[sic] hundreds, in groups of around 25, the flak was pretty tense[first two letters crossed out] and accurate around, and over the target area!! we made our bombing run - and was relieved [sic] when I heard “bombs away”. A good raid, time 8hrs 50mins. After that we had leave, before proceeding I applied for my commission!! Alan Conner knew some people in Nottingham, they had lent him their Sunbeam Talbot for use at our Station, although I had never met them-or in fact never even knew their names, must of [sic] been grand folks, to lend [page break] 56 their [?] car to us, I myself had a Morris 8 at that time, which I used for going home - or into Boston, and leave’s if enough petrol Feb 22nd we did an N.F.T, and on Feb 24th was briefed for Schweinfurt - usual load ex [sic], time 8hrs 30mins. Next evening Roy had put me rear for a Flt/Lt Weller, which I thought unfair - considering I was already so many trips in front of them!! Our target was “Augsburg” We took off, but unfortunately my oil pipe got caught in the turret - busted, releasing all the oil, making the guns useless, we had to return to base after 1hr 50mins flying. My leg was pulled for days afterwards, but a pure accident I can assure you. My commission came through, back dated to the 8th Feb - felt very proud of myself, had a couple of days off to get myself a uniform!! Now a sprogg P/O Also Mooney had been made P/O so it called for a drink or two around [sic]. Lossis [sic] of aircraft and aircrew were getting higher, [page break] [photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1501-0014+PCruickshankG1501-0015 “BERLIN” after raid in 1944 1, Machine tools, range finders ex [sic], 2 Turbines, 3 Numerous[?] producing auto equipment,4 Welding, 5 Accumulators, 6 Chemical and printing [written down left hand page margin] 57 we could’nt [sic] keep a gunnery leader for long - there was a flow of new ones in a short period of time, I kept things ship shape until a new one arrived!! On the 1st March 1944, we did an N.F.T 8 local, later attending briefing - our target “Stuttgart” usual bomb load, and correct amount of petrol ex [sic], Good raid, fair amount of action - time 8hrs 30mins. The next week consisted of local bombing, air-test, cross country ex [sic]!! and of course usual nights out on the beer - or hitch hiking home to Nettleham, some 25 miles inland. 10th March finds [sic] us being briefed for Clermont Ferrand, in France - usual load ex [sic], and bombed from 6000 FT[sic], time airbourn [sic] 6 hrs 30mins We had now started stepping things up - also the losse’s [sic]!! 15th Briefed for Stuttgart again turned out really interesting airbourne [sic] 7hrs 20 19th Briefed for “Frankfurt” - time 5hrs 50 mins 22nd again for “Frankfurt”- time 5hrs 25mins [sic] March 24th again on, this time “Berlin” again- a real good raid - well on the mark, plenty of excitement!! time 7hrs 30, landed at Spilsby Lincs[page break] 58 Returning to base on March 25th. 26th find we are on again, how our losse’s [sic] are growing too!! Briefing over - our target ”Essen”!! Later having our flying meal ex [sic], and some half hour before take off, made our way to our dispersal!! Which was quite near by[sic]. The raid was good, and took 5hrs 30mins. Free again the next couple of days - bar for doing air test on two of our aircraft. March the 30th, another memorable raid!! Having attended briefing, our target “Nürnberg” [sic] usual bomb load, and petrol, the required amount. Having seen to my guns earlier, I was free until our flying meal, after that collecting my rations - flying clothing and chute ex [sic], and made for our dispersal point!! Roy and the engineer running up the engines with all aboard - and the fuselage door closed. I was soon in my turret loading my guns, checking everything over again!! called up Roy - for checking of my intercom, we then made for the runway in use. Roy made a good take off, and was soon [page break] 59 gaining height – oxygen on, suit switched on, and gun sight light, guns to fire!! A lovely grand evening, we set course South, via North London and over Selsey Bill, where normally three searchlights roamed the sky, and helping you to pin point your correct possition [sic] – thought a nice night for fighters and kept a keen lookout for them, it was as we just crossed the French coast, that I noticed one, two, three, four, five streaks across the sky – and then a terrific flash, I reported to Skipper, this was repeated over, and over again – the lads said I was seeing things, but I knew different !! And stopped reporting anymore – but telling them – you wait and see our losse’s [sic] will be heavy tonight!! On reaching the target things were a little better – we made our bombing run, and after bombs away, and bomb door closed, we made haste for base, on landing and returning to the crew room, and on to de-briefing where I reported again all I had saw – the lads laughing, after that, a meal, and so to bed!! [page break] 60 we [sic] were woken by the police – who informed us of our total losses, 97 aircraft, I then noticed our billet was empty – bar us three of our crew who sleep there. Later looking at intelligents [sic] reports of the raid, we saw our loss’es [sic] were 144 aircraft!! Also a few apploligies [sic] to me, from them. our time 8 hrs Will always remember the courage of a young air gunner, he, and his crew were about to start operations – when taking off, the pilot got off the runway, and tried to take off, & got to about 100ft when it dived – as it did so, the rear turret breaking off, a terrific bang, you can picture a bomber – plus full bomb and petrol load blowing up, they had no chance atall [sic] But the rear gunner was still alive, although he was partly stripped of his flying clothing – and what was left on, was all in shreads, [sic] his nerves completely wrecked – and know [sic] wonder, he stayed on at the Sqdn refusing to be grounded. I had left when I heard of what had happened to him later, when he restarted flying – [page break] 61 He had crewed up with another pilot and crew, and after a few successful raids – had run into trouble over enemy territory, and were shot up badly, on arriving over the English coast, the pilot said, the aircraft would have to be abanded [sic] – and give orders for his crew to bail [sic] out, on going for his chute, found it useless – the other gunner to [sic] had also noticed this!! and said don’t worry - we’ll go together on mine, this they did, but on pulling the rip cord, the sudden opening of the chute, broke his hold, and the other gunner could do nothing but watch his co gunner go to his death. W/Cdr Gibson V.C. D.S.O. D.F.C. paid our Mess a visit, he was now stationed nearby – he to [sic] was to crash later over enemy territory in a twin engined fighter bomber, had heard that he hit a hill while low flying on a daring raid. Bomber Command were certainly going through it – our [self-corrected] loss [/self-corrected] even greater, which meant fewer aircrew completing a tour – or second, third – 5.4.44 Our next raid was Toulouse-Montraudan “France” A real good do, landed at Morton-in-the Marsh, time 7hrs 40mins [page break] 62 The 6th April returned to base Bob Weatheral who had returned to Operations with S/Leader Frazor-Barron [sic] D.S.O. D.F.C. D.F.M. had completed a number of raids, but unfortunately two Lancasters crashed head on over the target – and both aircraft were blown to pieces!! Bob was one, how I [smudged] one letter [/smudged] miss his cheerfulness – For Bob [self-corrected] Weatheral [/self-corrected] was one of the best, and I have yet to meet a better. On my last leave, when a few miles from Portsmouth, a con-rod had broken, and went clear through the crank case – it was late at night on a lonely road, and my wife was nursing our son, who was but a few months old, I did'nt [sic] have much choice – but to drive it, the row was terrible and when entering Portsmouth folks shouting!! take that thing off the road – had to switch off and get out and push it, I did have some luck – two Sailors give me help, thanks to them we managed to get to my Sisters [sic] house in Portsmouth o.k. Now it was ready for collecting, and went down to Portsmouth to get it – the price of that accident was £30; and drove back at 30 M.P.H. taking eleven hours – felt very tired when I arrived back at base early morning of the 8th April. [page break] 63 April 9th briefed for “Danzig Bay” Gardening with 5 ‘veg’, our route across Sweden, full petrol load. height around 1,000FT. Having had our flying meal, collected rations, flying clothing and chute ex [sic] – made for the dispersal. Everyone in, fuselage door closed – engines OK. We made for the runway in use, called up for permission to take off!! this given, we turned onto the runway – [one indecipherable word] engine’s,[sic] then started our run – gaining speed every second, on reaching 110 M.P.H. we were airbourne!![sic] flaps and undercarriage up, we circled the drome and set course for “Danzig” I switched my heating on – after some while I could smell burning!! called up the Skipper and mentioned it – who in turn sent Alan back to investigate, then saying he could'nt [sic] see or smell nothing – Roy informing me. Later I felt a pain under my right arm and instantly turned off my heating – as we were fairly low I said no more and carried on with out [sic] heat, which I did'nt like one bit, we were now well on our way, and soon came to Sweden – who [page break] 64 upened [sic] fire on us – but well clear, I enjoyed an orange whilst crossing, throughing [sic] out the peel in return. We dropped our mines with little interference, and returned back the same route, on landing at base – and at the crew locker room. I found I was burnt through all my cloths [sic] and also burnt underneath my arm time 9hrs 5 mins Of course we had some laughs to, [sic] remember a a [sic] W.A.A.F. who give birth to twins in her quarters!! and reckoned she did'nt [sic] know she was expecting – perhaps she was right? and the stork made the wrong delivery, who knows !! I know that I don’t! It was April the 20th before we got airbourne [sic] again. Doing an N.F.T. and “Air test” Later attending briefing, our target “Paris Railways” quite an uneventful trip – in fact dull!! time 5hrs 20mins Next we did [deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] [inserted] some [/inserted] local bombing on the 22nd, and were later briefed for “Brunswick”, we were to carry special oil bombs. We were well over enemy territory, when I was looking arear [sic]!! saw a streak of cannon or tracer coming [page break] 65 straight for our middle, shouted dive Roy!! who did so instintly [sic] – it missed our middle ok, but cault [sic] our aircraft about the wing, much better than the middle !! did'nt [sic] fancy that lot there – and us, with a full bomb load on too, the rest of it came easy – but that fighter was far to [sic] close to be healthy. time 5hrs 50 mins. Group Captain Cheshire D.S.O. D.F.C. was also stationed nearby, he was well liked by everyone!! We had heard that Munich was a [self-corrected] hard [/self-corrected] target to hit, and was very heavily defended – more so than Berlin!! Group Captain Cheshire had said, let me go in a “Mossie”, twin engined fighter bomber, followed by two Squadrons of P.F.F. and backed up by 5 Group of Bomber-Command [sic] I’ll see it's hit alright they adgreed!! [sic] and it was. On the 24th April 1944 we were briefed – and our target “Munich” Full petrol, and bomb load – and in the last wave. Had our flying meal ex [sic], collected rations – mascots, flying clothing and made for our aircraft!! which was all ready on our arrival – after awhile [sic] climbing aboard, engines running – fuselage door closed ex [sic], got into my turret and loaded my guns, pluged [sic] in intercom [page break] 66 oxygen, switched on fire & safe – to fire, gun sight light ex [sic] – called up Roy for testing intercom!! we then made for the runway, permission given we took off – gaining height, undercarriage and flaps up!! around 3,000 ft oxygen on, getting up to around 20,000FT set course over base for “Munich” On route it was fairly quiet, until near the target, things then were active!! heard them say there were a lot of fires over a large area, we started our bombing run, bomb doors open - left-left, steady, steady, bombs away!! We were cault [sic] in the searchlights, Roy diving, weaving - doing his upmost [sic] to get out, when suddenly Alan shouted fighters – he had picked up four on his radar screen, under his instructions, plus what we could see at times we opened fire, things were difficult; one minute you were looking at the stars – and another the dark background of the ground, we had a running combat over Munich – getting clear of the searchlights found us very low over the target outskirts, to [sic] low to be healthy – and got to hell out of it, we believed we had one fighter and damaged another!! [page break] [photograph missing]- PCruickshankG1501-0022+PCruickshankG1501-0023 [underlined] Munich [/underlined] after 5 Group of Bomber Command raid 24th April 1944 [written vertically down left hand side of page] [page break] 67 We arrived back at base after 10hrs of active flying, after reporting any snags to the waiting ground crew – made for the locker room, and so on to the de-briefing room – reporting ex [sic]. A good meal after and then to that wonderful thing called bed. Next afternoon I went to the intelligents [sic] room, and saw photos of the target, one by Cheshire’s navigator – he had made sure his marker flare was dead centre, for the photo showed his aircraft flying up the street lower than the house’s [sic] – what flying, and Munich was well and truly hit. Shortly after Group Captain Cheshire was awarded the Victoria Cross!! I never knew him personaly, [sic] but I doubt if your [sic] come across better, both as a comrade, or pilot – he sure was respected by everyone. I was now nearly finnished [sic] and certainly would'nt [sic] be sorry when it was – the losse’s [sic] were heavy!! and often wondered how great? Bomber Command, it was made up of eight groups!! 1 and 5 Group around Lincolnshire, 4 and 6 Group about Yorkshire – 3 Group and P.F.F. Cambridgeshire (P.F.F. 8 Group) 2 Group Norfolk ex [sic] [page break] 68 and approximately at the height of the war 200 bombers a group, and much less beforehand!! it was not until after the war that I found out how great our losses were, it was 1949, Tuesday November 8th when I attended the service of the presentation of the memorial books of 1 and 5 Bomber Groups, a total of 22,000 names of those killed in action – and later a book presented to York Cathedral, of a further 18,000of those in 4 and 6 Group!! and other groups yet to come, so I think now how lucky we all were would did in fact complete our tours, no wonder your chances were given – was little, or none of finnishing [sic] So Bomber Command, not only took a beating but was slaughtered at some stages of the war, and must of [sic] lost thousands upon thousands of aircraft Have you ever seen any of the lads after crashing, with or without fire!! it was heart breaking, but their spirit you couldn’t break!! to them, and others of the service’s [sic] who suffered like wise. I say God Bless you all. 26th April I was briefed for “Schweinfurt”[sic] usual load ex [sic] – a long trip, and very lively- time 9 hrs 30 mins How I longed for my last – and it [page break] 69 was to come on April 29th 1944 Our target Clermont-Ferrand, [self-corrected] usual [/self-corrected] bomb load ex [sic], airbourne [sic] 7hrs After nearly 350 operational hours I was certainly glad I had finnished.[sic] Later Roy was awarded another bar to his D.F.C. and bar, Alan Connor a D.F.C. Mooney a D.F.C., both holders of the D.F.M.  Our Wing/Commander Bill Deas was to go missing just before I was posted to 17 O.T.U [indecipherable] two letters [/indecipherable] Silverstone!! Hast[?] ever flown deep into Hunland where the cold searchlights shimmer and shake, where like pink snakes the tracer uprises [sic] and life is no helping of cake Where the heavy flak rattles and sends you, while Messerchsmitts [sic] queue for a shot and you’ve only your guns to defend you? You haven’t? Then you’ve missed a lot! [page break] [Picture missing] Wife & Self late 1944 [Written down left hand side of page] [page break] 70 May of 1944 find [sic] me at 17.O.T.U Silverstone, The camp was good, also a good crowd of chaps – W/Cdr Lister was our c.o [sic], unfortunately for me he and I were alike – so when I first arrived, and used to put my head through – or rather around an open [deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] door!! the lads used to stand up, thinking I was W/Cdr Lister – until of course they noticed my one thin ring, instead of those thick ones!! this happened often My wife and I used to live out in Towcester!! It was while at Silverstone – when the wonderful news came through that we had started the invasion, it was thrilling – after some of the set backs [sic] we had recieved, [sic] such as Dunkirk, the “middle east”, Russian convoys, the sinking of the Hood – The heavy  losses of ships in the Atlantic Ocean!! the fall of Singapore, and heavy losses of men and ships of the far eastern command, and not forgetting the heavy bombing here. Misfortunes too – such as the liner Queen Mary failing to turn, and in doing so cut the Cruiser ‘Curucio” [sic] in half with the loss of all lives We had some luck too!! with the stopping of the German invasion of our coast, destroyers going full out casing barges to turn over, then the sea [page break] 71 being set on fire, those that did get through being mowed down like rats by the waiting Army on the beaches. I wasn’t to stay long at Silverstone, and in the summer of 1944 was posted to Swinderby as assistant motor transport officer, I again lived out!! Somehow I couldn’t settle and asked for a posting, which I got soon after – a course on administration at NO1 school of admin at Hereford.  At Hereford late 1944, I paled [sic] up with Charles Sleight, Eddie Ball, and several other officers – who were doing the same course as myself!! on completion we had leave – and of course our posting, arriving at Morecambe, when we were moved by train to Liverpool – and aboard the liner “Monarch of Barmuda” [sic]  Sailing very soon after!! our destination “India’, three weeks aboard, and I really enjoyed it!! through the “Med’,  stopping at “Cairo” before going through the Suez canal and on to “Bombay”  Our first place in India was the R.A.F [page break] [photo missing] Worlie [sic] early 1945 [photo missing] Self centre, Charlie Sleight on right and a friend. [page break] 72 transit camp of Worlie [sic], just outside of Bombay, whilst waiting our postings – we enjoyed Bombay!! We were soon all posted, myself going to Delhi – where I was a staff officer until being posted to Chacular, [?] near Jaunapur as a station “Adgt” [sic] It was not a good place, in fact the lads hated the sight of it – so on hearing the war with Germany was over made our way by train to Jaunapur to celebrate!! Received a parchment from the Governor of “Bihar” (T.G. RUTHERFORD) commemorating the ending of the war in four languages!! another souvenir for my collection. Soon after I was again moved to Barrackpore near Calcutta – and again shortly after to “Poona”  In Poona a week or so, and on again to “Bhopal” staying at Bhopal to my release!! I spent some happy times then – hunting, how I sometimes recall those evenings out with my fellow officers – having mess parties!! and cooking our catches over sputals!! [?] When the war was over, I applied for my releasement [sic] & this granted, and was soon on my way!! Worlie [sic] again – and whilst waiting a sight seeing tour of Bombay again My ship, the Scythia leaving India late [page break] 73 November of 1945, arriving Liverpool around the 10th December. on [sic] my arrival at the demob centre things were pretty good – and after a couple of days finally released December 13th 1945 [sic] Home, and a new life!! yes but what? First [sic] a good holiday, a job, and of course our own home. I got a job at A.V. Roes aircraft repair factory at Bracebridge near Lincoln – afterwards seeking a small house in Lincoln. after [sic] purchasing one – set too [sic] redecorating inside and out, finishing it to the best of my ability and later moving in!! We were friendly with a South African named Tony Broquit, [?] who was still in the Air-force – and also a Flt/Lt!! when he was and returned to his home in South Africa – we used to write, telling me of the lovely conditions ex.[sic] out there!! September 11th 1946, we had another child – a girl, we named Jennifer Ann!! I wrote to Tony telling him of the happy event. His reply, and congratulations came – also that his firm was progressing fine, and that if I was keen on going out there – he would put me right, this was great news – as I was unsettled here, decided to write and we would come!! [page break] 74 We sold up, and returned to live with my wifes [sic] Father [sic] again- but we later had our letter returned, unknown!! what a dissapointment [sic] to us. It was now 1947, and once again unsettled – thought I would try my hand at business, so bought myself a morris [sic] 12 – but unfortunately going round a bad “S” bend near home a spring broke and I landed up in a six foot ditch!! Gilberts of Lincoln said it would cost me about £80 to do – so I let them go ahead with it. Meanwhile I bought a 1947 long wheel base lorry (Jordan) and set too [sic] to obtain the acquired licence!! what with objections ex [sic], going to court, I was months before I finally got my “B” licence – coal carrying for Parsons coal firm, from the pits to the depot in Lincoln!! Things started to go nicely – then the Labour Government decided to Nationalise the railway, and was informed by Parson that as the railway used to fetch the coal before the war they required it again – so out I went. No work, got connections at Boston ex [sic], and started again!! meanwhile I got the bill for my car – the price £177 I was speechless!! Things were getting fairly better, obtained another lorry – and did it up to working order, got a “A” contract [page break] 75 licence and put it to work. But my luck didn’t hold, two or three bad drivers landed me in trouble – and on the Nationalisation of road transport it put things right in the cart – for the 25 limit on us, which were it Nationalised really put paid me and thousands of others too!! And nearly had to give lorries away, for no one seemed to want to buy them at that period – had my car with a hackney carriage licence, tried putting things straight – but luck was again against me, for it was always giving me trouble!! I was forced to sell. And I was broke, [deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] mid 1949 – and set to finding myself work!! Shortly starting at Ruston Bucyrus Ltd Lincoln. Working all hours to get money to straighten things out!! 1950 came and I felt a little easier – but a long way to go before I could relax!! for we had no home of our own – and worst of all, no money. 4th March 1950 we had another girl, we named her Linda Carol, the time flew by – and I was hoping we might manage one of the new house’s being built nearby!! and 1950 soon came – and still no house yet. October 16th 1951 we had another girl – our last!! we named her Margaret Alison. [page break] 76 Things were getting better, wages were increasing and I felt a lot happier – then things happened, my wife went into hospital, I had the children in four different homes!! And to make matters worse, she had a very bad [smudged] hemorrohage [/smudged] [sic] – having six blood transfusions, I visited her twice daily!! But it caused me a great worry, and longed for her return – and have us altogether again, 1952 Early of [smudged] 1953 [/smudged] we got the key to our new house – how pleased we were, then of course I had new worries!! it had to be furnished. We progressed along reasonable [sic], and with four children to bring up made things difficult – but with working hard things would come right in the end, [smudged] we [/smudged] did it [sic] have any holidays – the things needed in the house came first. Afterwards gardening, wallpapering, painting ex [sic] as time rolled by!! I thought perhaps our luck would change, but it was not to be – for November of 1954 my [smudged] voice [/smudged] began giving me trouble, my Doctor sending me to see the throat specialist at the “County Hospital” 15 days later I was in, and a small growth [page break] 77 removed [sic] from my vocal cords. Afterwards feeling fine, returned to work just before Christmas – we had a somewhat enjoyable time, considering that I had a month off just before, and the children did too. Early January I felt a pain in my stomach and after seeing my Doctor, I was ordered to bed, just my luck, a fortnight in bed – with a suspected ulcer!! I was up a [sic] around again, and after six [word missing] felt like work again – but it was not to be, for just before tea I had a very bad hemorrhage [sic], lasting 4¼ hrs off and on – my wife fetching the Doctor!! By 11 o/c that evening I was once again in hospital. After six weeks in bed – I started to get up, although far from myself!! having been up about seventeen days – my wife had to go into hospital again, and I was left to manage the house & children. [deleted] indecipherable word [/deleted] Things went fairly well, my sister-in-law helping whenever possible, unfortunately for me a sickness was going around at that time – and of course mine [page break] 78 would have to catch it – no sleep for me, in and out of bed for two nights!! Poor Alison, my youngest – she had been sick, heard her crying, and went into her room, poor dear she was flat on her back and sick everywhere, including her hair. I managed to pick her up, and carried her into the bath room [sic] – run some water, and tried washing her!! but it was to [sic] much for me, so I ran off the bath and bathed her. On finnishing [sic], she started laughing – I said I am not laughing Alison? she replied but I am Daddy – bless her. After three weeks Mother returned home – how pleased to be together again – during that year I had Linda, and Jennifer both in hospital, and I had six months off work. It was just before the holidays of 1955 when I returned to work – and thought perhaps I can save and enjoy an [sic] holiday next year!! set to get things straightened out – first Christmas, saying we would have a good one. Time went by, [self-corrected] no [/self-corrected] pains, and I [page break] 79 thought my troubles were about over, and we did have a good time at Christmas. Afterwards settleing [sic] down to work, and save, for that long waited [sic] holiday!! but it was not to be, Feb 20th 1956 returning from work – I had another hemorrhage [sic], and 7 o/c that evening I was once more back in Johnson ward. Luckily it wasn’t so bad as before – and after just over three weeks in bed I began to get about again, and after nine weeks returned to work – but I returned to [sic] soon, for I was only back just over a week, when early on May 4th 1956 I had yet another hemorrhage [sic] – 9 o/c of that morning I was back once again in Johnson ward. Five weeks more off work, and I was feeling really fed up with things!! hoping perhaps this time was my last – when after seeing the Surgorn [sic] who recommended an operation. I had some very severe stomach pains!! this was June the 9th after only nine days at work – I was ordered once again to bed, and although I am up now, and waiting to be admitted once more to hospital – I have some more [page break] 80 weeks in bed to come, and many more weeks off work – but perhaps this will be my last, I know I sincerely hope so!! [Addendum – Short piece repeating some of the details from the main account which took place between December 1941 and Npvember 1942] [underlined] I Flew Rear [/underlined] It was late December 1941, we!! that is several other gunners and myself had just been posted to 50 Sqn 5 Group Bomber Command, a Hampden sqdn!! It was a cold December, and the station [deleted] ed [/deleted] seemed miles from anywhere – we said what a place, my pals and I soon got settled in making many new friends and waiting to see who we were going to be crewed with, it was after a short period there – when I learned I was to fly with Norman Goldsmith, Terry Tuerum [sic], Colin Gray – they were in my mind the best!! our aircraft Manchesters, for we had just changed from Hampdens. After flying together for some days we started operations – but I felt that these aircraft were useless, and this proved correct for they were later to be grounded. On the night of April 24th/42 we were briefed for Rostock, Germany, carrying 14. 250 incd [sic] bombs – our second pilot was a chap called Manser who was later awarded the V.C. the raid was good, and although we couldn’t get above 5,000 ft it will always be remembered as one of my best. After Norman completed his first tour, we were left without a pilot – we were hoping Leslie Manser would take us over!! but this was not the case, our pilot was [page break] Roy Calvert, a NewZealander. [sic] It was not long before we came to be a first class team – all keen, Roy was a likeable chap and a damn good pilot, in fact I will go [one word deleted] [inserted] as far as [/inserted] to say one of the best there was, our sqdn now was at Skellingthorpe very close to Lincoln – this was much better, for a night out was easier; & not so far to return after a hectic night on the beer. Operations started [last two letters overwritten] piling up, Hamburg, Dusseldorf, Kiel, Duisburg, Osnabrück, Frankfurt, Cassel [sic], Saarbrucken, Karlsruhe, Bremen – we seemed to be doing fine – now will our luck hold? for some the answer was [underlined] no [/underlined]!! Leslie Manser was one, the night was May the 30th 1942 Target Cologne, the wars [sic] first 1,000 Bomber raid – full crews from all sqdns, everyone was [deleted] all [/deleted] on [indecipherable letter deleted], Cologne was indeed to get a pasting – and our boys!! don’t lets [sic] forget them they suffered too. Les & his crew run into trouble on approaching the target, when cault [sic] by searchlights & intense anti aircraft fire, they were hit badly – but pressed on to bomb at 7,000 ft, with searchlights & flak still giving them Hell !! things were bad – damned bad, the rear gunner [page break] wounded, the aircraft losing height – and now fire – aircrews [sic] worst enemy, after awhile [sic] this was mastered, but it left its mark – the wing badly [deleted] burnt [/deleted] burnt & the engines failing badly, when with efforts of all the Manchester began to lose height – Les gave orders for his crew to bail out, disdained the alternative of parachuting to safety himself, but held the [deleted] aircraft [/deleted] aircraft till [sic] all were out – but too late for himself, it plunged in flames, with a man of great courage & strength. Flying Officer Leslie Manser was awarded the Victoria Cross. “Posthumously” Summer came we were all in high spirits – perhaps the weather? or that we had decent aircraft to fly in the (Lancaster) they had now brought in the bomb aimer & flight engineer, so our crew being altered slightly, and Terry Tuerum [sic] having completed his tour, so we had to [get?] used to another again –shortly afterwards a boom in operations, Frankfurt, Bremen, Wilhelmshaven, Essen, Wismar. When training for some low level stuff, often remember our c.o. remark dont [sic] go mingling with the traffic below – then it came low level daylight on Le-creucot [sic] led by wing commander Gibson [page break] & the [sic] another on Milan – allright [sic] maybe!! but to me 10½ hrs in the rear turret is a hell of a long time. It was nearly my first tour over, Genoa, Genoa, & Genoa again – dont [sic] they know any other place!! – they did on the night of Nov 9th 1942 “Hamburg” which was not only my last raid but nearly our last altogether Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Memoir Flight Lieutenant Gordon Cruickshank D.F.M. RAFRO Description An account of the resource Memoir written in 1956 by Flight Lieutenant Cruickshank. It covers his early childhood and family life, as well as his early time in RAF after enlisting in December 1938. He recalls his crew, bombing operations he took part in and his investiture and time in India as an administrative officer. He also describes his transition to civilian life after his demobilisation from the RAF, his poor health and his attempt to build a business in post war Britain. Some of the photographs mentioned were donated separately and some are recorded as separate items. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource G Cruickshank Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1956 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource One hundred and seven page handwritten notebook with cover Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Text. Memoir Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context BCruickshankGCruickshankGv1 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Civilian Royal Air Force. Balloon Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain England--Dorset England--Portland England--Bristol England--Hampshire England--Lincolnshire England--Bedfordshire England--Suffolk England--Essex England--Aldershot England--Felixstowe England--Harwich England--Middlesex England--Herefordshire Scotland--Ross and Cromarty France France--Clermont-Ferrand France--Saint-Nazaire France--Toulouse Germany Germany--Munich Germany--Braunschweig Germany--Kiel Germany--Kassel Germany--Bremen Germany--Duisburg Germany--Berlin Germany--Hamburg Italy Italy--Genoa Italy--Milan Germany--Schweinfurt England--Northamptonshire Germany--Rostock Poland Poland--Gdańsk Germany--Cologne Germany--Karlsruhe Germany--Wilhelmshaven India India--Mumbai India--Kolkata India--Bhopal England--Liverpool Germany--Augsburg Germany--Frankfurt am Main Germany--Düsseldorf India--New Delhi Germany--Ruhr (Region) England--Gloucestershire England--Lancashire Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942-04-17 1942-05-30 1942-05-31 1943-05-16 1943-05-17 1944-03-30 1944-03-31 1944-04-05 1944-04-06 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maureen Clarke 44 Squadron 50 Squadron 630 Squadron air gunner Air Gunnery School aircrew Anson bombing of Augsburg (17 April 1942) bombing of Cologne (30/31 May 1942) bombing of Nuremberg (30 / 31 March 1944) bombing of Toulouse (5/6 April 1944) Cheshire, Geoffrey Leonard (1917-1992) Distinguished Flying Medal Eder Möhne and Sorpe operation (16–17 May 1943) Gibson, Guy Penrose (1918-1944) Hampden Lancaster Manchester Mosquito RAF Abingdon RAF Bradwell Bay RAF Cardington RAF Cranwell RAF Credenhill RAF East Kirkby RAF Evanton RAF Felixstowe RAF Silverstone RAF Skellingthorpe RAF Swinderby RAF Uxbridge RAF Warmwell searchlight superstition training Victoria Cross Whitley