1 25 8 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/4088/58708/PRichardsonH2501.jpg d507d8acf09d7b1928c2d9e668412369 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/4088/58708/ARichardsonH250626.mp3 befb668f968a370edb51256c822133e4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richardson, Harry Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Pilot Officer Harry Richardson DFC (b. 1918, Royal Air Force). He flew operations as a pilot with 149 and 59 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Richardson, H Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AM: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is a chap called Alistair Montgomery, that’s me, Monty. The interviewee is Flight Lieutenant Harry Richardson, Distinguished Flying Cross and we’re sitting in Harry’s lovely home in Ochiltree in Ayrshire with his daughter Penny. Right. Harry, tell me a wee bit about your life before the Royal Air Force. You know, where you lived and your family. HR: Well, I lived in several places with mother, dad was a power station engineer supervisor and he seemed to get moved around so the first place was I take it you can edit [laughs] this tape. Where was it first? Well, I was born in Leicester. AM: Right. HR: So obviously he worked there. Then the first place I know was Derby. He worked in a power station there and then we went to Derby. Did I just say that. Yeah. We were about seven years there. I remember bits and pieces like, you know these green things at the end of the street with all the electrical stuff in. That’s one of my first memories is on a Sunday morning a gang of blokes, about a half a dozen all in white cricket or tennis wear playing around with this thing. That’s about my first memory. AM: Right. HR: And the next would be in front of a pub. They opened the doors and rolled the barrels of beer down with ropes. I don’t know whether you ever saw it done. AM: I have done. Yeah. HR: So those are my first memories. I must say we were at Derby there — AM: And where did you go to school? In Derby? Other: No. HR: No. Next we went to, dad went to Bolton, Lancashire and that’s where I did all my education. AM: Right. HR: Primary school, secondary and so on and then we moved down to Wembley and I got a job. Gosh, it’s a long time ago. I should have written all this down. Oh, I signed on. I decided to go into Customs and Excise — AM: Right. HR: Because I knew a family and I spoke to the dad a lot. So I signed on the dole and I started a correspondence course for Customs and Excise and every week went to the [brew?] and one of the days, twice a week I think it was, on one of the days we drew our dole money but one day they said, ‘We’ve got an interview for you.’ Oh. So, I was interviewed by this chap and it was one of two brothers that ran a motor car sales place and repair shop. So there were three of us and I was picked for the job because mine was the only handwriting they could read [laughs] So that was my first job. Ray Abbott Limited, Harrow Road. So after that — Other: RAF. HR: Yeah. The reason they wanted somebody at that time was because one of the partners was studying for Grand Master of the Mason Lodge. AM: Right. Good. HR: So that’s why I got my first job. One of the reasons. And then what did you say, Penny? Other: It was the RAF after. You got called up after that. HR: No. No. No. Let’s have a [pause] let me think. AM: So which year did you join? HR: Pardon? AM: Which year did you join? HR: Which? Other: ’39. HR: ’39. AM: ’39. Other: 1939. AM: Where did you join up? HR: Well, I tried to join two weeks before the war. Other: It’s, it’s — HR: I went to Hendon and I said — Other: In here. HR: I said, ‘I want to be a pilot.’ Other: There you are. HR: ’Oh, we’re not taking for pilots.’ Other: That’s his call out paper. AM: I’ll take a picture of that. Yes. Other: Yes. HR: ‘We’re not taking people for pilots.’ So I went to Hendon. Other: It says May actually. HR: And got the same answer and then the war started. Within a week I got this thing through the door. I was called up. So I was, I had an interview didn’t I? ‘Do you want to be a navigator or something like that?’ I said, ‘No. I want to be a pilot.’ So I stuck out and I got taken on as a pilot. Oh no — AM: Where did you start the pilot training proper? HR: It was — Other: It was at Perth. HR: Yes. Yeah. Other: Perth. AM: At Perth. Yes. HR: At Perth. AM: Yes. HR: Yes. Perth. On Tiger Moths. AM: Right. HR: And after that it was Montrose on Miles Masters. After that it was Lossiemouth on Wellington aircraft. And after Lossiemouth I got my first posting to 149 Squadron at Mildenhall where I completed a tour of operations over Germany. AM: When you, when you, tell me how you formed a crew on the Wellington. HR: Ahh, that’s going back a bit now. We went to — AM: Was that down at the OTU? HR: Lossiemouth. AM: At Lossiemouth. Right. HR: Went to Lossiemouth. That’s where I formed the first crew and we completed [pause] completed the course together and then I was posted to Mildenhall on ops. AM: Right. HR: And I completed thirty trips which was a tour and I went to Lichfield then. AM: What was the Wellington like to fly? HR: Oh, it was very nice. Very nice. A bit slow but it responded fairly quickly to your controls. AM: When you arrived at Mildenhall I think I read somewhere they were making a film, “Target for Tonight.” HR: Yes. AM: Right. Tell me about that. HR: Yeah. Well, the, “Target for Tonight,” the front gunner did his second tour with me. AM: Right. HR: Yes. [Dickie Bird]. AM: Right. HR: Well, I [laughs] [didn’t call] Dickie. AM: Isn’t he just. HR: Yeah. So that was — AM: When you got to a typical mission, not there probably was a typical mission but when you arrived at operations to fly. HR: Yeah. AM: What was the procedure like? How did, how did people feel? HR: Well, you’d go to this briefing a few hours before and be told where you were going and the first, the first half of my tour we did our own thing. Some liked to fly at sixteen thousand feet. Some people flew lower. AM: Right. HR: I preferred eight thousand feet because the light, the light flak, flak being anti-aircraft stuff finished about eight thousand feet and the higher levels sort of were, didn’t really get going ‘til about sixteen thousand feet. AM: Right. Was that where the night fighters were? HR: Well, the first half of the tour there was neither night fighters or radar. When radar came in you soon found out about it [laughs] because you got more attacks. I actually think I shot one down. Shot an enemy fighter down. AM: Right. Tell me about that. HR: The reason, the reason was that we were being attacked and so I could be a little bit more manoeuvrable I decided to drop my bombs. So I pulled this toggle at the bottom of the instrument panel and that was supposed to drop the bombs. Anyhow, we got home safely and halfway through the debriefing one of the maintenance guys, the fitters whispered in my ear and said, ‘You’ve brought your bombs back.’ I said, ‘What?’ So I had to think because I’d seen this explosion when I had the go at the night fighter. What I did I sort of, he attacked me and I thought well he didn’t do too much damage so I thought he won’t give up. He’ll keep going. It was a dirty black night and you couldn’t see a thing. I thought well he’ll take so long to come back on my tail and I gave the order to the rear gunner when I thought he’d be behind me and I said, ‘Fire.’ Through the hosepipe which he did and a few, a minute later there was an explosion on the ground. I thought that’s him. No. Sorry. What am I doing? I’m getting lost. Yes. AM: So what you thought was your bombs going off — HR: No, that’s right. AM: Was him hitting the ground. HR: I dropped my bombs and said, ‘That’s my bombs.’ But when I got back and was debriefing this mechanic said, ‘You’ve brought your bombs back.’ So what else could it be? It would be the fighter. But he never turned up again [laughs] AM: Right. What was the, I mean you attacked a lot of targets in Germany. HR: Pardon? AM: You attacked a lot of targets in Germany. What was the, what was the most difficult one? I’ve heard you mention Essen before. HR: Well, the furthest I had to bomb was Karlsruhe. AM: Right. HR: Sort of southeast of Berlin. I was never on Berlin. I think, I think they waited for me to go on holiday and then they picked Berlin because there were three, at least three Berlin raids when I operated and I missed them all. So that was that. AM: Did you, did you do any day sorties or only night? HR: Only night. AM: Only night. HR: Yeah. AM: Right. That’s interesting. HR: Oh, sorry. We did a bit of shipping. AM: Right. HR: Off the Dutch and Belgian coast. AM: And was that bombing shipping or dropping mines? HR: That was bombing. AM: Right. HR: Bombing ships which were supposed to be all German. So that was that. AM: What was, what was the life like at Mildenhall in 1941/42? [pause] HR: That was Bury St Edmunds I think was our leisure place and I had a relative down there which was quite useful. So [pause] AM: Was there much interaction on the station — HR: Yes. AM: In your off-duty periods? HR: Off-duty periods? Well, it was usually going out. Going out dancing. Other: Bury St Edmunds. HR: Sorting out the girls. AM: Yes. HR: Seeing the lads. That’s us. That’s where I met my wife. It wasn’t there. Other: No. That was later on. HR: That was later on. AM: Right. HR: We used to go to the dances at the weekend. AM: Did you ever have a trip home to see your parents in that period? HR: Oh yes. I think we had a week off every six weeks. AM: Right. HR: Oh yes. We had to go and see our parents. My parents. We were living at North Wembley at that time so they had more, they had more bombs exploding than I did. AM: What was it, you told me one story about when you brought your bombs back. What was it like when you got back to Mildenhall at the end of a sortie? A six, eight hour sortie. HR: Yes, well, we were, we were debriefed. Told our, the story of the trip and that was it. Then we went to bed. Getting too tired for that. AM: I bet you were. I bet you were. Was the trip [pause] that’s not a good question. What was the most dangerous trip that you took part in during your time at Mildenhall? HR: Ah. I think around Karlsruhe. The first obstacle was along the coast. AM: Right. HR: Holland and Belgium. Hundreds of searchlights. Other: A bit of Wellington. AM: Right. Right. HR: Yeah. There were a lot of searchlights and anti-aircraft guns. That was, that was sometimes it was the hardest part to get through but I was only, I was only hit once fortunately. That’s the result. AM: And that’s a bit of it. HR: That’s a bit of it which the mechanics kindly gave me when they mended it. AM: When, when we read about bomber missions you know quite often pilots talk about having to fly the corkscrew manoeuvre. HR: Oh, well we, we didn’t fly in a straight line. I mean if they’re going to fire at you they’re going to get you eventually in your tour. So you just flew around and you changed your height. AM: Right. HR: And that sort of thing. So you weren’t just sitting there with your feet up. AM: So, so you finished your first tour at Mildenhall. HR: Yes. AM: Tell me what happened then. HR: Well, I went to Lichfield I think. Other: No. Did you not go to Montrose? HR: No. Other: On Ansons. HR: No, we’d been there. Other: Oh, right. Ansons. HR: Oh yes. Yeah, I, for a time I went on to Ansons flying all the students around and doing their first countries and checking. You know, toughening up their skills. AM: That must have been a bit of a change. HR: Oh, it was. It was lovely [laughs] Yes. Feet up. Sometimes you would, you would let their second pilot sit in so you took two learners flying the aeroplane because they were very easy to fly. AM: Right. HR: So that was good fun. Other: Didn’t you do the first two bomber, thousand bomber raids from there? Are we still — HR: From Lichfield. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They were quite easy. Not much trouble at all. AM: Was this the attack on Cologne? HR: Pardon? AM: Was this the attack on Cologne? HR: Yes. AM: Yeah, right. HR: Yeah. Yeah. Other: He did the first two. AM: So did you do that while you were instructing on Ansons? HR: Yeah. AM: And pick up a Wellington to do the trip. HR: That’s right. AM: Right. Gosh. HR: Yeah. AM: Yeah. HR: Yeah. AM: That must have been a rude awakening after — HR: Yeah. AM: Flying students around. HR: Yes. I’m glad they didn’t send us in the Anson. AM: You’d still — Other: [unclear] they didn’t have. AM: You’d still be flying I think. You’d still be flying. HR: Yes. AM: Now, when you finished on Ansons you converted to the Liberator. HR: No. The first time I converted to a Wellington. AM: Right. HR: And then, oh gosh I volunteered to go overseas and that’s when I went on to Liberators. AM: Right. So after the Anson you went back to the Wellingtons for a bit. HR: No. AM: No. You went straight to the Liberator. HR: Yeah. AM: Right. And where did you do your conversion onto the B-24? HR: [unclear] AM: Right. HR: Right in the middle of India. AM: Yes. HR: Yeah. AM: I read about flying a Liberator and a lot of people say it’s not an easy aeroplane to fly. HR: Well, once you learn how to fly them they’re no bother. I mean flying is usually all you’ve got to do is this sort of thing [laughs] AM: I’m told on take-off it was quite heavy. HR: Take-off. Well, of course you have everything. All your power on. That’s the most dangerous part of flying. When you, when your engines are on full power but no. No. But it’s not that difficult once you’ve trained. AM: To try to — HR: I think people try to make this flying business you know they pump it up and say [pause] my logbook says [laughs] the first entry in the flying after the first month it’s got, “Below average pilot.” But the last entry, “Above average pilot.” So it’s all how you learn it. how quickly or how slowly but you get there in the end. AM: Tell me a little about some of the Liberator missions. HR: Oh, Liberator missions. Oh well, the longest we did, the most difficult was to Penang. AM: Right. HR: We dropped mines between the Penang Island and the mainland and that was an eighteen and a half to twenty hours. AM: Gosh. That’s a long trip. HR: Yeah. AM: A long trip. HR: Eh? AM: That’s a long trip. HR: It was indeed. Yeah. AM: And that was on 159 Squadron. HR: That was 159 Squadron. Yes. AM: I noticed — HR: Wing Commander Blackburn. AM: That’s Wing Commander James Blackburn. Is that the chap — HR: Pardon? AM: James Blackburn. HR: James Blackburn. AM: Yeah. HR: He did about five tours. AM: Gosh. HR: He did two, two in the Middle East. Well, he was a university guy and they, some of them flew with the RAF while they were at the university and I think most of them became officers straightaway when the war began. Blackburn, he did, he did two tours supply dropping in the Middle East and I think he did about two tours over Germany and some out east. An affable bloke, most unassuming but he didn’t care. He was very handsome but he never, we never saw him with a woman. I don’t think [pause] I don’t think he liked women you know. He was the other side but he was a very courageous bloke for all that. AM: Definitely. HR: Yeah. AM: Now, I understand that your Liberator had a name. Queenie. Is that correct? HR: Queenie. AM: Yes. HR: Yes, one of the, one of the mechanics or somebody painted this. This woman. AM: Right. HR: This sexy woman, you know on the side of the aeroplane. AM: So, it wasn’t you that chose the name. It was the ground crew. Is that right? HR: Oh, no. It wasn’t me. It was one of the, one of the ground staff. AM: Right. HR: Yeah. AM: And did you do all your missions in the Far East in Queenie? HR: Pardon? Oh. AM: Did you all your missions in that aeroplane? HR: Oh yes. AM: Right. HR: Yes. AM: So tell me about what happened when the war came to an end then, Harry. HR: Ah. That’s what happened [pause] Oh, I did a bit. Did a bit in Transport Command — AM: Right. HR: Out in India. Ferrying people around. AM: What aeroplane was that on? HR: A Liberator. AM: Still in a Liberator. Right. HR: Yeah. C-87. AM: Right. HR: The passenger version. AM: Right. HR: Yeah. Yes. AM: What about, what about the day the war actually ended. What happened then? Nothing? HR: Not, not a lot. No. Yes, the war ended while I was out there and, oh gosh my memory is terrible [pause] Yeah. We, yes I was in Transport Command then. AM: Right. HR: So I carried on for a bit. Then we came home. AM: Just out of interest what was — HR: Eh? AM: What was Calcutta like? HR: Calcutta. Well, it was alright. It’s a town. AM: Yeah. HR: Or city. [unclear] oh gosh. I’ve forgotten the places we went to. There was a pretty good red light district I’m told. AM: You’re told. Yeah. HR: I never experienced it myself. Other: Because he was married by then. HR: Yes. I was married. AM: So, when did you get married? Other: 22nd of May 1943. HR: ’43 was it? Other: It was ’43. HR: Oh sorry. I thought it was ’42. Other: And I was born a year later in 1944. HR: Yes. AM: So while you were in Calcutta your wife was still in England. HR: Penny will tell me. Other: Yes. In Wallasey. AM: Right. HR: Was I married then? Other: Yes. You were. HR: Of course I was. Yeah. Other: Yeah. Mum was pregnant. You went out in the January. HR: Yeah. Other: January ’44. HR: Yeah. Other: To India. HR: That’s right. You were — Other: By ship. HR: You were a year and a half before I saw you. Other: No. Before you saw me but I was born in May. HR: Yeah. Other: You left in the January and I was born in the May. AM: So you got married while you were flying Ansons. [pause] HR: Yeah. Other: There’s Queenie. HR: Yeah. I think so. Other: There’s Queenie. AM: Oh right. Good. Yeah. So when you completed your time at transport command how did you get back to the UK? Was there, did you bring Liberators back or — HR: I think I flew back here. I went out by ship. AM: Right. That must have been an interesting trip. HR: Yes. Yes. I remember going through Suez and we brushed alongside an American. a heck of a noise. [unclear] two ships through it. It was very good. The food was super. Smashing. Other: Yeah. AM: So you got back to the UK. HR: Yes. AM: And tell me what happened then apart from meeting up with your family for the first time in a couple of years. HR: Oh dear. Other: Yeah. HR: Leconfield. Other: I don’t really know anything — HR: Yeah. I went, I guess I was [pause] Leconfield comes in my mind and instructing — AM: Right. HR: Yeah. AM: What were you instructing on? HR: On, on Wellingtons. AM: Right. HR: Yeah. I was at — Other: Was it Letchworth? HR: I joined, transport, Transport Command. AM: Right. HR: As I say C-87s. That was passenger air. The Wellington. Yeah. I enjoyed my stint. AM: And when were you commissioned? HR: When was I commissioned? Other: That would have been when you were out in India. HR: No. It was when I was on Ansons. AM: Right. Other: Oh right. HR: They wanted more officers. AM: Right. HR: The — Other: That was when you became a pilot officer was it? HR: Yeah. Other: You were a pilot officer when you got married in 1943. HR: Yeah. If not ’42, ’43. Yeah. AM: And the one thing you don’t mention, you’ve not mentioned to me is your Distinguished Flying Cross. HR: Yes. AM: Tell me about it. HR: Yeah. One day one of the flight commanders came to me and he said, ‘Would you write citations out for about ten bods getting medals.’ So [laughs] I found it very difficult but I did it and of course I said I can’t write one for myself. So, I handed these things in and waited with bated breath and eventually I was awarded one as well. AM: Right. HR: Yeah. AM: Wonderful. And where were you at that point? HR: I was at, I think I was at Lichfield. AM: Right. HR: Yeah. AM: Right. You must have been very thrilled. HR: Yes. Yeah. AM: Deservedly so. HR: Well, compared with some of the guys I’d written for I don’t class as much as them. AM: Yes. Good. Very difficult though isn’t it? HR: Yes. AM: And the people you flew with particularly on the Wellington did you meet any of them after the war? HR: No. No. Other: I thought you met one at that reunion. HR: Yeah. Sorry. Other: At the Mildenhall reunion. HR: Freddy. Freddy [Reece]. Yes, I met the navigator. AM: Right. HR: Yes. He lived somewhere in London I can’t remember and oh yes we got on really well. He never got me lost. AM: Just as well. We can’t say about my navigators [laughs] now is there anything I’ve not asked you about that you really think I should know? [pause] HR: That is difficult. [pause] The only, the one thing I remember the first trip. It was late evening. The light was just going. We were over the English Channel and I looked back and saw the southeast of England there. The Thames and all that. And I went through and wondered would I see that again. That was the only time I’ve thought anything like that but I can still remember it. I can still see the southeast coast of England. AM: Right. HR: It stays there. AM: I’m not surprised. That’s remarkable. Well, Harry. That’s your lot of questions so I’ll close this down now and we can just have a chat if that’s ok. So, Harry Richardson, Flight Lieutenant Harry Richardson, Distinguished Flying Cross, thank you. HR: My pleasure. [recording paused] AM: Right. I’ll just say Harry tell me about Lichfield. HR: Yes. Well, I was, yeah posted to Lichfield. Billeted with a guy called Tim Yates and he said, ‘Would you like to come dancing tonight?’ So I said ok. And he said, I wasn’t quite ready so he said, ‘I’ll go and pick up the girls.’ And off he went and I got ready. He came back with the girls. There were three girls sitting in the back and they had left the front for me but there was a blonde who was Tim’s girlfriend and there was another woman and then another woman who was a brunette, a lovely smile and that was Margaret. We got on very well and to cut a long story short she eventually became my wife. She came to live at Wallasey. She was the daughter of an architect and quite a nice lady and eventually, well we got married. That was Margaret Rivers. AM: Brilliant. Lovely. Thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Harry Richardson Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alastair Montgomery Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2025-06-26 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Royal Air Force. Transport Command Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:43:41 Audio Recording Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending revision of OH transcription Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ARichardsonH250626, PRichardsonH2501 Description An account of the resource Harry describes his early life and operations on Wellingtons with 149 Squadron and then on Liberators in the Far East with 59 Squadron. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1939 1943-05-22 1944-01 1945 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain Malaysia India Atlantic Ocean--English Channel England--Bolton England--Bury St. Edmunds England--Derby England--London England--Staffordshire England--Yorkshire Germany--Cologne Germany--Karlsruhe India--Kolkata Malaysia--Pulau Pinang (State) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Tompkins 149 Squadron aircrew Anson anti-aircraft fire B-24 bombing briefing debriefing Distinguished Flying Cross entertainment love and romance military service conditions mine laying nose art pilot RAF Leconfield RAF Lichfield RAF Mildenhall Tiger Moth training Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1358/22527/PGrahamJ1701.2.jpg 03356d596bab678bf0be72fb90daba8c https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1358/22527/AGrahamJ170927.2.mp3 412f4cb7442925548a15d9c754948cc3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Graham, Jimmy James Graham J Graham Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Warrant Officer Jimmy Graham DFM. He flew operations as an air gunner with 567 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Graham, J Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document JG: The job I had — AM: I just, I just have to say a wee bit at the beginning. JG: Yeah. AM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is — JG: Yeah. AM: Alistair Montgomery. Monty. And the interviewee is Warrant Officer Jimmy Graham. The interview is taking place at Mr Graham’s home in Kilwinning, Ayrshire and his daughter Alison, is present. Jimmy, just to start could you tell me a little bit about your family background and where you lived before you joined the Royal Air Force. JG: Yeah. I was born in Irvine, and I went to school in Irvine. And there I got myself a job there when I grew up. The job was a Reserved Occupation. The war itself had now [pause] the war, the job that I was after it was a Reserved Occupation. To get in to the Air Force along the line I went up to Glasgow to volunteer and told a pack of lies. Yeah. Because, well the reason for that is none of us wanting to join the Royal Scots Fusiliers. That’s where, that’s the one you got shoved into, and so in the end I was taken on in to the Air Force and I got posted once I’d joined joining up side, I got posted up to Leuchars. And that was the start. And then I left Leuchars and went to Ireland. AM: Right. JG: RAF there. I had a job there, what was it. I was working in flying control there as well. And — AM: So, you went to Ireland with the Royal Air Force. JG: Aye. AM: Right. JG: And so in the Royal Air Force in there I volunteered for aircrew and I got all the medical side done in Ireland. AM: Whereabouts in Ireland? JG: What? AM: Whereabouts in Ireland? JG: Oh, it would be about [pause] about seven mile out of Belfast. AM: Right. JG: There. AM: Ballykelly or something like that. JG: What? AM: Ballykelly. JG: Nutts, Nutts Corner. AM: Right. JG: That’s it. Nutts Corner. Yeah. And well, I volunteered for aircrew and I got posted. I did some training, believe it or not in Lord’s Cricket Ground. AM: Right. JG: But all the Air Force took it over and some of the big houses. We got put in the houses until we got timed to get in to the big stuff. The next things. What’s the possible thing, Finningley? I went to Finningley, and I got all the training you need to get there to start off, and you, you graduated a wee bit higher up, and I went there and then I went off. AM: And were you flying at Finningley or was it all on the ground? JG: Oh no I was flying there. AM: Right. JG: Yeah, I learned away from, I think I was in to, I was at Leuchars and I left Leuchars and then I started flying from Leuchars, and so it was a case of training, training, training until you go on to a squadron and that was you away. AM: Right. And did you want to be an air gunner or were you told? JG: I was told. AM: Told you were going to be an air gunner. JG: I was told. I had no option. AM: Right. JG: Yeah. I think they were losing too many. AM: Right. What, what episode stands out the most during your training period? Was there anything that was really memorable? Or — JG: And on the training side [pause] I think that went pretty well. That period there. Everything was good about Finningley in all that time, the whole time we was there, and then we moved on after that on to the next one. Other: After Finningley. JG: Aye. Other: Blyton. JG: Blyton. That’s it. Yeah. AM: At what stage did you join a crew? An operational crew. JG: Oh, that comes at, once I left those two places. I went down to, down to, into Scotland. I got posted down to, I think it was, where that was, but what happened there was that they had a good method of crewing up people. Let’s say there’s a hundred altogether and a, it’s in a big hangar. AM: Right. JG: And they kept moving about and moving about, and they were, let’s say there’s a hundred pilots, and a hundred navigators around the same and that’s how the pilot there he’s looking around for someone to make up his crew, and that goes on and on, and on sand on until you’ve got seven there. That’s a good system that, and it worked. AM: And once you had crewed up did you stay with that crew? JG: Oh aye. AM: Right. Tell me just a little bit about the very first time that you flew an operational sortie. JG: The first time. I think it was intentional you got one that teach you just in to France and no more. Just in and out. AM: Right. JG: And that was the pattern. AM: AM: Right. JG: But the first operation I did. The big one. The Capital. AM: To Berlin. JG: Berlin. Aye. It was the. It was big. Well, they learned then that there was, a thousand aircraft at a time [unclear] yeah. A thousand. Yeah. The reason for the thousand is that Harris, who was the boss of the RAF. He had the same approach as America had when America dropped an atom bomb. The reason for dropping the atom bomb was to stop the war, and they did. Harris tried the same with the RAF, and the hundred at a time to be sitting there in the air, but then, again the, the average, no not the average, it was two to three hundred at a time used to go and do ops. There was about a thousand for Berlin. That was his idea. In fact, I’ll show you ahead now. The war is finished, and Churchill has now gone on to see things you see and he saw the mess of the big city, and he were very cunning. He didn’t want anything to do with that. It wasn’t me that did that. And that’s how the RAF don’t like Churchill because all the bosses of the Army and the Navy and that they were all [unclear] and the Air Force boys got nothing, and that. So that took me into the big stuff. AM: Just Tell me a little bit about this. About how you felt about going on your very first mission to berlin. You know, from, from, from meeting in the operations room, getting to the aeroplane. JG: Yeah. There was never any sign of dozing off. You were, you were alive all the time, oh aye. Oh, very much. Oh no. It was even towards the end I was very much alive all the way. AM: Right. JG: Oh aye. AM: And what sort of flying clothing did you wear? JG: I I was a rear gunner so I could connect up electricity and get warm. I had a complete suit. AM: This is an electrically heated suit. JG: Yeah. AM: Right. And did it work? JG: Oh aye. Other: It was interesting the time we saw the Lancasters down at Prestwick, and, and the crew were out and being very supportive of the veterans and he said of course we didn’t have that when they had the Perspex bubble, and we said that was taken away very immediately, because the discovered that in the sky you got oil slicks on there so the gunners couldn’t see anything. That’s why that was taken away. JG: Yeah. Other: So, you were basically sitting out in fresh air. JG: Aye. Other: Hence the need for the electric suit. JG: Aye. AM: Tell me about the, the first time you saw flak coming up at your aeroplane. JG: It may sound daft, you know, but you saw these things coming up at the side, and I had, I think [unclear] but, you know at that altitude, ‘Oh he’s missed. He’s missed me. He’s missed me.’ but, no the thing was that I forget the thing that we got. We’d got a tablet before. It was to make you, you know, there was no sign of sleeping or anything like that. You got a wee tablet for that. Other: Do you have any idea what the tablet was? JG: I forgot, Alison that side of it, but we got a tablet about nearly half an hour before you had to the big one. AM: Right. Was this Benzedrine or — JG: I forgot the name of it. AM: Right. JG: But we definitely, we all got the tablet. I don’t know about the pilot but I know all the gunners we got a pill. AM: And did it work. JG: Oh aye. AM: Right. Right. And what was it actually like seeing flak for the first time? JG: It, it was queer to begin with in terms, to me the fact for the first time is, I found the result together. The feeling now, that we’re safe enough now, because of the, the volume of, of Lancasters and that. To the picture that town with that up there, a thousand. Churchill, meant that Berlin was hammered. It was in a big mess, and Churchill was very cunning, it was down to him. AM: Tell me a little about this manoeuvre called the corkscrew. JG: Oh. AM: Did you ever have to do that? JG: Aye. At the [pause] Certainly, anyway, I’d better put it this way as well, on our way back from doing a job I, I was the gaffer. The reason for that is the pilot cannot see in front. He cannot see. So, I tell him what to do because I can see and do everything. He’s flying. I’m just defending. And everything the boss called Murray? come to a raid that we did, but we just had left having got to bomb and head for home when two Germans got behind me and they were flying this way on that trip. So, I, I said to Charles, ‘Hold it. Hold it, just now.’ I said, ‘We’ve got company now,’ for some time, and it went on and on. And I said to Charlie, ‘Charlie, I want to get down and fly on the roofs of all the houses.’ And he wouldn’t have it but I bawled at him and made him do it, and my attitude is that they’re not going to come down and fire on me. They’ll maybe hit Germans. AM: And was this a day sortie or a night sortie? JG: Oh no, mostly the night. AM: Right. JG: Oh aye. Yeah. AM: And — JG: Then when I got him to fly right down all the way to, to, in to, in to France, and then we, when we flew along the North Sea side, we had only two engines. He’d shot two off and we landed West Malling in Kent. AM: Tell me a wee bit more of this attack that shot out two of your engines then. What exactly happened? JG: When, when we were shot. AM: Aye. JG: That was, there was two of them firing away like hell. My turret got jammed, on, when I was out, and I was stuck that way, and what had happened they, they had hit all, the boys had hit the hydraulics and I couldn’t move it. So, I was able to talk to him but, the, the pilot and me got along great. Aye. And as I say we landed at West Malling in Kent, and we saw the aircraft the following morning and it was riddled, and there wasn’t a bullet that hit any seven of us, up to it finished. AM: Had you thought at any time you might have to bale out? JG: Did we what? Did you think at any time you would have to bale out? JG: I’m not so sure I can answer that rightly. I never thought about baling out. I was, as I said early on, I was dreading I would bale out, and the reason I was dreading it was that, the inside of a Lancaster, let’s see, it’s the length of the house here, and I’m the rear turret, but to get out the aircraft, I had to go halfway along, you see. Now, yeah, and then there was a, there was part of the strength of the, the aircraft, there’s a kind of, a kind of metal that height. You had to jump over it. AM: So, it was the main spar. JG: That’s it. Aye. AM: Right. JG: And then that were my biggest fear is that I had to, I had to get out of there and put it this way they’ve now made a parachute for a rear gunner and you can sit on it. AM: Right. JG: And — AM: But your parachute was at the front. JG: No. It was hanging, I took it out into the middle of the aircraft, and it was hanging up. I had to take it there. AM: Right. Was that in a Mark 1 Lancaster? JG: We each had the they were all in one. It was the outside of that metal bit inside. AM: Right. JG: To go to get through the plane. Yeah. Yeah. AM: And was there any trip that you flew that you really thought you would have to abandon the aircraft a lot. JG: Oh, we got, there was no question about that, you know. Let’s face it. You can go and do a trip to Germany and France and nothing happen. That can happen. And as I say you’re locked in, but I thought many a time that, what the hell do I do here now. The, the main thing is with me is that, and my life even now, don’t panic, don’t panic at all, you give that up, and. So put it this way if I had to, I could cope. Oh aye. AM: What did you think when you saw another Lancaster in the stream being shot down? JG: In what way? AM: Well, I mean [unclear] AM: I’ll just put it off a second. [recording paused] JG: But that, there’s no question about it, you’re lucky if you miss the flak, because it’s coming all the time. Yeah. That, and, it could be curtains then if you’re hit then, but no I certainly didn’t panic. AM: No. JG: No. AM: And of all the many missions that you undertook were there any that really stood out from the others? JG: In what way? AM: Well, in terms of being more dangerous or extremely long or very difficult. No. As I said earlier that I was quite calm in, in the turret. You know that, I was moving about, moving about, and I was quite calm. Other: Dad, of all the different things you did is there one particular mission that you remember most vividly? JG: Oh aye. I was touching on it a wee while ago there. It was in Germany. These two aircraft fastened on to us. I had a hell of job on now, and that’s when I said to the skipper. Get down on the top of the roof, and we’ll see all the way and flew all the way across the continent down that level all the way. That was the one time that. Well, there was one or two. Let me think. Other: What about Mailly? JG: Eh? Other: What about Mailly? You know, which one of the many things you did stands out most strongly in your mind? JG: Oh, wait a minute. I’ll come to it. Well, have you heard of Mailly le Camp? AM: Yes. JG: I see. I thought that. To begin with whoever thought up that he should be bloody shot. The reason is that, you’re a sitting duck just doing that. The, the ideal thing was that they should have made a triangle, fly A, B, C, actual flying, on the raid, but we were all set up for the fighters, the night fighters. I mean, I was in amongst it. There were, I was seeing two Lancasters flashing each other. Oh aye. But I think there’s a wee bit in there, it was fierce fighting in the whole war. Mailly. It was the worst in the whole war. Mailly. AM: And do you know why you were sent to that target? JG: Oh aye. Well, the Germans had brought all the big tanks, from let’s say in France to, to that part. It was like an invasion now to get all these big super tanks and they had many of the men there who were Russians, aye, but they were prisoners and the Germans used them for maintenance on, on the, and most of them got killed and, but that, that was at, what, what. There was the Free French who kept phoning us to say that’s another ten there, that’s, and they kept saying you have to do something. That’s what it was built up to. They were going to try to stop us coming. AM: And why do you think you were sent in to an orbit? JG: I don’t know. Now, the guy, I mean in this in a way, the guy that thought it out should have got shot. I mean, the fact that you were doing that you’re stuck the one the area. Fighters can come from everywhere to that one bit and that’s what happened. Well, I’d have said, ‘Right. You got Kilmarnock. You go to Ayr. And you go to Girvin.’ And if we had kept doing that that would have worked but that was that. It was mad. AM: How long were you over the target for? JG: Well, wait a minute. Time. Oh, a hell of a time, sat. You see one of, one of the things, we were circling around because we had what we call they sent the people to find the actual target, so they were to go and they’re circling round, and when they find it, they’ll drop colours there. AM: A marker. JG: Aye. A marker. That’s right, and, but we certainly weren’t an hour away from that bit, but that was it. We were told it should be one of the things that happened there as well is the Germans, the Germans arrived, and they cut off our connection. So, the only thing we got was American dance music. AM: So, so— JG: That was the way to dance. AM: The Gee beacon was cut out. Is that it? Right. JG: No, the Germans did that themselves. They did change it to the national stuff and we couldn’t we couldn’t contact each other. AM: So, the radio was jammed. JG: That was done to begin with. Aye. Yeah. Yeah. Towards the end at the tape that they put on or something changed, and we got back, but that was the worst time. I heard, and the feeling was then was, ‘To hell with this. I’m going in.’ And so, the whole lot of us went in, didn’t wait on the colours, you could see that a lower column we went into that spot and then did our jobs. Aye. AM: Gosh. JG: But that, at that time, but at that time, it was frightening that one. It was incredible watching two Lancs. Yeah. I think earlier, but when I was on at that, the young German pilot, he shot three down right away, and he noticed, and he was on his own aircraft that he needed fuel, so what he would, when was near his own airport, he went down and topped up and came back up and got another two. He got five. What a mess. But all doing this. And I say that’s when I heard, I can remember that voice saying, ‘Oh to hell with this I’m going in.’ [thumping noise] And we all went, and that was that, yeah. It’s the worst, I might be able to read into it a bit, bit in there, but that was the worst in the whole war, the whole war. That one. AM: Tell me a little bit about, about your crew. Tell me about the rest of your crew. Those that you can remember, and what were they like. JG: I can — AM: How you got on with them. JG: I got on all right with them. The system was, the operation on, so you all met in this big hangar and it was full, all the place and you’re inside, and when you’re in there on the wall is that, that that, you’re going there. And if you were away a certain distance my bomb aimer took diarrhoea. That’s true. He couldn’t go, that he couldn’t go, so they had to get somebody to take his place, aye. Even now as I say you bastard, oh aye, that was that. But no. Mailly — Other: You kept quite good contact with your crew. JG: Oh aye. Other: Over the years after the war. Oh aye. The pilot. [unclear] We were going to, to Lincolnshire once a year to commemorate the Mailly thing, and my bomber he lived in Gainsborough which was next to the aerodrome, but as I say, I got along alright with him, but certainly when he saw where were going to land, he took diarrhoea, and the mid-upper gunner, was very slow, he didn’t see a thing at all and he was up there and I never did anything. And that was that. But I got on with the pilot very well and even I was offered to do a second tour and I turned it down. So, he crewed up, and I went on a second tour but when the war was all finished, he phoned me to go down and visit him. Anyway, he lived in [unclear] not far from Carlisle, and so I saw him quite often. The navigator, sorry for him, he an excellent navigator, super. But he was Canadian but the family had two houses. One in America and one in Canada, and he was in the, he was in America he got an [unclear], and when he finished flying with us, he volunteered and joined the pilot and the American war with Japan. Yeah. So I went to visit him and he was completely shattered. Oh aye. That was two wars. Aye. He was in a mess. AM: Gosh. JG: Ah huh. Yeah. And not the same man. But, and the pilot, I saw him very often, but the navigator. The wireless operator. A hell of a good lad. A great bloke. He had a job on the railway at one time and, but that was the only reason for him and his diarrhoea. AM: Now, as a crew did you, did you go out socialising at all? JG: Oh aye. AM: And was that in to Lincoln or — JG: Oh, no. We had for example you had your own fitter looking after your aircraft and you took them out but they were doing a good job for you all the time but — Other: So where did you all go? Where? JG: We went Doncaster. Other: Doncaster. JG: Aye. AM: Was that when you were at Elsham Wolds? Was that when you were at Elsham. Right. JG: Maybe sound daft, but come the time when the you, you crack so you go down there, and it’s all aircrew, it’s in there now, the whole lot, and all with. Wilson had a hell of a dram, and in fact I went to a funeral and I met with another fella, navigator, and when I was leaving him, I said I’ll get you in the [unclear] Thursday, that’s where all the [pause] In fact, I thought the other day I’ll get a card from him, and I tried to say I’ll see you on Thursday in the [unclear] but they were there to get drunk. Oh aye. AM: Was that the best the pub in Doncaster then? JG: In that area. That’s right. AM: Right. Right. You mentioned the, the ground crew. JG: The — AM: The ground crew that looked after the aircraft. JG: Oh aye. AM: I mean apart from going out to the pub did you see a lot of them? JG: Oh aye. Yeah. Aye. Ah huh. Oh, and of course there was what you call the NAAFI. AM: Right. You know you would get them in the NAAFI, and they would sit there [unclear], and they were quite good. AM: And what was, what was the social life like in the, in the sergeant and the warrant officer’s mess? JG: I thought it was ok. No. as I say, I got to WAM: O, and I was quite happy there. What were you when you, what did you finish up as? AM: I was a pilot. JG: Aye, but were you a warrant officer. AM: A group captain. JG: Were you a group? AM: Hmmn. JG: By golly. I should be standing. AM: [laughs] Jimmy what was your, what was your favourite airfield? JG: Elsham Wolds. It was a, everything was good about it, it had everything that I needed there, it was quite good. But we the other crew that was on with us the fact on 103 that’s what they were at. And — AM: So, there were two squadrons there. JG: There were two there and we used to take the mickey out of each other at the NAAFI, and we I’ll do it while we’re here, is that, 103 [sings] ‘103, they aint what they used to be. 576 are the best.’ [laughter] AM: And how did 103 take that? JG: Not very good. AM: No. I can imagine that. JG: Now, believe it or not, it seemed daft but, let me see if I can say it, but, you were both of you have been out, and places, and come back in and two of their [unclear] come back, things like that, that’s the thing, and you certainly, you feel, you know, what, what you normally do then is that maybe they get caught, maybe, maybe things are in their favour. Maybe get back. But, but no, they got on pretty well, the two squadrons but all that was the bit we used to sing to them. AM: Tell me during your tour of operations when you had some leave did, did you go home? JG: When I left when I left home. Yes, I did aye, because I wasn’t too far away. AM: Right. JG: I was down at Wigan. Down there. AM: Is that where your parents were? JG: That’s where, I was staying, I stayed at Irvine at the time. AM: Oh right. JG: So when, when I got into aircrew I got a posting, it was deliberate I think it was, nearer home and I made good use of that, you know that, because a firm [unclear] did all the washing. Laundered stuff. And [unclear] I got home then. AM: Right. JG: And things like that. AM: There’s quite a big difference between your life in the air and then coming to visit family. JG: Oh aye. AM: How did you feel with that? Was it difficult or — JG: No. It wasn’t difficult. No. No. AM: How did your parents feel about the fact that you were aircrew? JG: Well, they were quite happy. They looked at it as their boy was a lot bigger now than their little boys, or something like that, and they had wings on, or something on, thing up there. AM: Right. JG: Same as you with your four-ring belt, [unclear] too many steps there, I’d have got the uniform. Other: Dad, did you ever go to spend time with one of your crew who lived near Lincolnshire? JG: What? Other: Was it the Carters? JG: No, no. I think I mentioned it. [Tug] the navigator. He, he settled all together with one another. The navigator was [unclear] but and on top of that, the fact that they lived half and half in America he was accepted in to the American Air Force. And he went in there was the pilot and he had a rough time. But, but the thing with that was two, two lots of fighting here and in Japan, it was on out there. He had a rough time, could tell, he went inside the house what he was like but, he was, he was a very smart looking boy, so he was [unclear] but, and then his wife was the same. And the pilot and myself went to visit him. Other: Who was it in your crew who lived in Lincolnshire? Was it the bomber? JG: Left us altogether — Other: No. Who lived in Lincolnshire? Was it — JG: Nick Carter. Other: Nick Carter. Right. JG: Aye. Aye. Other: And what did he do? JG: He was the bomb aimer Other: He was the bomb aimer. JG: Aye. He was. Other: So sometimes when you had leave, you went to stay with him and his family. JG: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Other: Yes. AM: Jimmy, when was your last operational sortie? Can you remember it? JG: My last one. I’ll tell, you you’ve got me beat. AM: I’ll just. JG: Thats’s right. AM: Where was it to? JG: Hmmn? AM: Where did it go to? JG: Stettin. AM: Right. Right. JG: That’s the, that’s the town, isn’t it? AM: Yes. JG: That’s it. AM: So how did you feel when you — JG: In Germany, but knowing, leaving and [pause] you’re optimistic, you know. It was my last one and I went to a few but all in all it I enjoyed the whole of the Air Force. I really did enjoy my time there. AM: After you, after you finished flying at the end of 1944. JG: Yeah. AM: What did you do between then and the end of the war? JG: I got the air traffic control at Wigan. AM: Right. JG: I finished up there, and I could get home in, in minutes. AM: Right. JG: Yeah. AM: So how did you feel when the war was finally over? JG: Well, what I was feeling about that for some time I was at Prestwick. I think I said earlier that I thought Prestwick had a future. And the reason at the time was that there was no RAF at Glasgow, and we thought it was all be taken to, to Prestwick. And then I, I realised early on that Prestwick would never take off again, and I never changed my mind about it. AM: Jimmy, is there anything about your, your time in the air as a Lancaster air gunner that you’d like to tell me that I haven’t asked you, or you’d like to share with me? JG: That I haven’t what? AM: Is there anything we haven’t talked about you’d like to add? JG: Let me think now, [pause] no, put it this way. When, when I went on the aircrew side of things that was my life. It was at, give you an idea. It’s been on TV an awful lot. Sorry I’ll get the name. Group captain, and so on. What the hell, Sir John, wait a minute. AM: Just pick that up. JG: I was at Mailly, [unclear] he got the VC. Then later on I found out there were two or three of them got the VC. I’ve got one gripe about this one here, is that I, all, all the crew, all the crew were decorated to DFM, and all that [unclear] I couldn’t find out for you coming, but they were all out showing the medal, you see. And, why the dam, I thought it was disgusting because they all got medals, I doubt that [unclear] my last, I’ll tell you that was the worst one. Mailly le Camp. We didn’t all get medals for that, yeah. But you see the Dambusters, there was a film made, so it was a different atmosphere to the country about that. And I thought it was totally unfair that there were medals and medals, and we didn’t get medals. That didn’t happen at other places. That was my one gripe at the time about that. The other thing about it is that, I wasn’t flying that day but I knew it was on. I think there were about twenty of us hanging about that day. They said it, we all said it, the damage they did to the dams would last about three weeks yeah, yeah. But they started the film to give you this, to get the bomb to bounce and bounce and that all, and do it again. But in the actual bombing the Germans repaired it in three weeks. Yeah. I think the four of them got VCs. That’s, the Germans were very clever. And that’s what we said right away. That they would repair that in no time, and did. AM: Any other stories you’d like to, you’d like to add or — [pause] AM: Any other stories you’d like to add? JG: Any other stories? AM: Right. JG: I’m trying to think now. Other: I think one of the things which I think is quite funny is that all these years after the war, it must be now about ten years ago my late husband engineered a meeting between my father and a German night fighter. Do you remember meeting Werner in Spain? JG: That’s right. Other: And after the initial discomfort of the meeting they settled down to chat. JG: Ah ha. I took him in there. Ok we’re, he was a German night fighter, and the War finished, and they were having a hotel built. Other: In Spain. JG: Aye. And then, I got word from David that he knew him so I’ll get an introduction to him, and right away I go, I had to go and have dinner with him and his crew. Yeah. I think that’s the beauty about aircrew everywhere, that there’s a kind of feeling, that he’s a pal. Other: Fencing, and then you were starting to say where were you? Where were you? Were you there? Were you there? AM: Do you think you ever shared the same piece of sky? JG: Aye. Oh aye. AM: Yes. They did. JG: Aye, yeah. Now, I, I was on that night, yeah [unclear] now as I say there was a feeling that there was no bad feeling between us. That’s all I’ll say. Come and have a meal. That’s the subtle difference. We both took it that way. Other: Then his own history was quite interesting, because he said he was shot down three times in the war and he said the first twice, he was unlucky because he was shot down over the Channel and the Germans picked him back up, put him in a plane, and sent him off. And it was only the third time that he was picked up by the allies and shipped off to Canada. AM: I didn’t ask you do you think you ever shot down a German fighter. JG: Did I think what? AM: Did you think you ever shot down a German fighter? JG: Oh aye. AM: Tell me about that then. JG: No, I shot. I shot down, I shot two down. AM: Right. JG: I shot one down, this is quite a good one. It was Russia. There was a bit of a problem with the, their Navy all sitting waiting to get out, they couldn’t get out, before the Germans what do you call the water, you know where the coastline goes like that, in and out, [pause] the name for it, German name for it, no not a German name. A Norwegian name. Fjord, yeah, Fjord, yeah. So, the Russians went in there, but they want out, and the Germans come along and they plant their, their Navy in there, the big one. And Russia asked us is there was anything we could do to shift him, and then we took that one on. AM: Was this the Tirpitz? JG: Eh? AM: Was this the Tirpitz? JG: Well, that leaf, that level. Yes. You’ve got it there have you? It will be in there, I think. AM: I’ll just — JG: The German [unclear] done away with them so they asked us to help out and they, what we did was [unclear] when the Russians asked us we’ll help. I can’t remember, about three of us hundred went. We took mines with us, and there was only two can fit the, the bay and we were told that you don’t drop them in, you have to fly them in at, because they might explode if you drop them so, this is the. For me, I always admired them, how good a fliers they were going there, they can fly away down there, [unclear] and they did it. Now, to me they were hard to beat. Oh aye, and anyway we, we did that, and we dropped our mines in there, so you can imagine it was almost a thousand mines that the Germans have got to clear to get out, and so we left them and came back home, and I went down through Poland and to France and in France I said to Charlie, Charlie, hold it. We’ve got company, and a 109 it was. So I shot it down, fatally. The place where we are. That was in France. AM: Right. JG: From Russia. That was it. To try and get the Russians out of the water. AM: Was that the first time you’d shot another aircraft down? JG: No. No. No. No. That was the first one. The other one, one of them things. I know it sounds daft now. Turn it off. AM: Right. JG: But I couldn’t claim it. You know there’s a drill they have, if you, if you shoot an aircraft down when you come back from an operation you get interrogated and if you say you shot an aircraft down they will not log it because if the three hundred have left to go there, so three hundred have got to come back. So, and you say that you shot down one there, and then, so, all he’d done is put down the time and the place. And he gets confirmation from other ones that all the ones that are flying back that cannot see them. So, they’ve all been trained, if you see a light, or if you see anything record it. So maybe about twenty of them saw the lights of mine, and I shot him down. That’s how it was done. That’s why at Mailly le Camp, I did one there, but the point was that, what was going on at Mailly. You know, you say what the hell can I do, the aircraft coming. Aircraft. I mean, it’s all happening, between out here and here, it’s all happened. So, but nobody has got time to write that they saw that at the time. Yeah. AM: Jimmy, Warrant Officer Graham, Legion D’honneur. Thank you very much. JG: I’m pleased to meet you. AM: And you. I’m honoured to meet you. No, please. [recording paused] Other: I rather thought that would be the case. AM: Jimmy, you didn’t tell me you had a Distinguished Flying Medal. Perhaps you’d like to tell me why you’ve got a distinguished, why you’ve got a DFM. JG: Well, it wasn’t because I’d, I’d shot down two. Yeah. AM: There you are. Sit down. JG: I shot down two. Yeah. AM: And who awarded your medal? JG: What, what they did they stopped royalty doing it because they felt they were doing too much of there, and that and that sort of thing, and it was well one of the big chief. What do you call them? AM: An air marshall. JG: Air marshall’s, aye. AM: And where was that done in? JG: That was done in, the Doncaster one. AM: Elsham Wolds. JG: Elsham Wolds. AM: Right. JG: Was that, and they came to do that, before they were, obviously their job was taken them everywhere. AM: You must have been very, very proud. JG: Oh, I was. When I came in [unclear] yeah. AM: Superb. JG: I felt good. That’s another of me there. Wireless operator, up, mid-upper gunner, who was that? Anyway, there was me, there’s me and Mick, he, he was the flight engineer, and the bomb aimer[unclear], and I used to pull his leg because — AM: Jimmy, tell me about you’ve just showed a photograph. Tell me what the bomb aimer did. JG: The bomb aimer did next to nothing. He doesn’t even help to put a bomb onto the plane, and the rear gunner on our way to the target is lying doing nothing. And then we were getting other players, he’s on our run now to where he was going to drop his bombs. ‘Left. Left. Left. Left. Left. Left. Bombs away.’ And then he lies down, and did nothing. He lies down until he gets home. Aye. AM: Well, I’ll say this again. Jimmy Graham, Distinguished Flying Medal, Legion D’honneur, thank you. That was brilliant. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jimmy Graham Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alastair Montgomery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AGrahamJ170927, PGrahamJ1701 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:00:17 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Description An account of the resource Jimmy Graham was employed in a Reserved Occupation but volunteered with the RAF as potential aircrew. He began his training in Northern Ireland and was, eventually, qualified as an air gunner. He was posted to RAF Elsham Wolds. He took part in the operation to Mailly le Camp, which he considered to be the worst raid of the war. After the war he met a former German night fighter and they became good friends. After his tour of operations, he was posted to flying control. Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1943 1944 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. France Germany Great Britain England--Lincolnshire England--Yorkshire France--Mailly-le-Camp Germany--Berlin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke 103 Squadron 576 Squadron air gunner aircrew bombing bombing of Mailly-le-Camp (3/4 May 1944) Lancaster RAF Elsham Wolds RAF West Malling training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1247/17040/PLeckieW1901.jpg 66b1611784af6fa1e98248f944c26165 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1247/17040/ALeckieW190322.mp3 ed629a3eb9fa65452055ce8345280bde Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leckie, Bill William Leckie W Leckie Description An account of the resource Two oral history interviews with Bill Leckie (1921 - 2021). He flew operations as a pilot with 216 and 77 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Leckie, W Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AM: Right. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Alistair Montgomery and the interviewee is Mr Bill Leckie, Flight Lieutenant Bill Leckie or Captain Bill Leckie. The interview is taking place at Bill’s lovely home in Troon. Bill, good afternoon. BL: Good afternoon, Monty. AM: Bill, tell me just a little bit about your family background and where you lived prior to joining the Royal Air Force. BL: Well, to go back to where I was started living. That was Glasgow. I was born in Glasgow. I lived there for about seven years and then my father, he suffered with bronchitis. He had been a heavy smoker and that’s his problem. It was his problem, and he was told he would have to get away from the city so he got a transfer to the more or less the country which was fine because he was a country born himself and brought up in the country, and same with my mother. They were both country people so they were quite happy and there was, he got a place with a bit of ground attached to it which he, he never really managed to make it, you know [pause] you know, a living from. But he got some a poultry farm he ought to expand it in to but it never took place. So, I was brought up on that basis in the country, and then that was fine. And when I was, oh what would I be now? I think I would be what, eighteen when I joined the Air Force. I did want to join as a boy service but my mother and dad wouldn’t agree to it, and so I had to wait until the war came along and I was called up. AM: Right. BL: And I spent five years in the Air Force. AM: So, when, when you were called up where did you go for your, for your basic training? BL: That was mainly [pause] I’ll get the name in a minute. Babbacombe. AM: Babbacombe. Right. BL: Yeah, Number 1 ITW. Babbacombe. AM: Right. By the sea. BL: By the sea. AM: Right. BL: That’s where I did my ITW as they called it. AM: Right. So — BL: I was called up and I went to St John’s Wood in London. That was my first full time encounter with the Service as such. From being called up and going along and signing in and being asked what I wanted to do, that was about I think about three months before I finally went to, well I went to St John’s Wood first of all. AM: Right. BL: As a reception. And from St John’s Wood I went down to Babbacombe to do my ITW. AM: Right. And what was that like? BL: That was fine. That was good. Quite, fairly intensive, but I don’t think we were, we were too badly done by. AM: Right [laughs] and did you know at that stage that you were going to undertake pilot training? BL: I knew at that stage. Right from the beginning. AM: Right. BL: Because that’s what I asked to be, you know at the initial call up. They said, ‘Oh, what would you like to be?’ And I said, ‘A pilot.’ They sat reading my papers and fortunately enough my name must have come out of the hat. I don’t know. AM: Right. I mean did you do any specific tests to assess whether you were better as a pilot or as something else then? BL: No. No. AM: Right. BL: No. I went straight on to the pilot course. AM: Right. So when you finished your square bashing what happened then? BL: Oh. What did we do after that? Oh, yes. We rolled up to, oh what was the place? The aircrew centre at, near Manchester. AM: Right. BL: And I spent, I expected to spend quite some time there. Instead all I’d spent was three days and I was put on a, you know, what would you call it? A group, and we were told we were going overseas. AM: Right. BL: And simply because they came up to, to Greenock, I mean I recognised the place. I knew where I was, but I was just when we got off the train and then straight on board the ship, you know. AM: Right. BL: The train ran out on to the jetty where the ship was moored. AM: Right. BL: And that was me on my way across the water there over to Canada. We arrived in Halifax. AM: Right. And was the, was the sea crossing uneventful? BL: Uneventful. AM: Right. Thank goodness for that. BL: Yeah. We had a fast ship and we had another ship which kept us company. AM: Right. BL: It wasn’t, you know a Navy ship or anything like that. A ship that had been converted into I think, what did they call them? AM: A troopship. BL: Yeah. A troopship. Yeah. AM: Right. BL: I think so. Yeah. Well, there was our ship and then another ship. I don’t know what the other ship was carrying but I think it was a troopship as well. AM: Right. BL: And we had this ship escorting us. AM: Right. BL: And we eventually finished up in Halifax. We got on the train in Halifax and that took us down to Detroit. We went to Detroit from there, and we spent what you might say initial training in Detroit, probably part of it, and when we finished our time in Detroit which was a kind of square bashing effort we moved down to Pensacola. AM: Right. BL: That’s where we started to do our flying properly. We did a few trips in Detroit so we did on a, it was an old biplane to begin with and then we got a slightly newer Stearman. But anyway down to Pensacola and there we flew the old MP1 as it was called which was an aircraft that the American Navy had built themselves. They built aircraft during the war, but they were original aircraft, and then we got off them on to more modern Stearmans and finished our flying then. AM: And how did you find the flying training? Was it a challenge or did you find it fairly straightforward? Or — BL: Oh, no. Well, to me it was a challenge. I had to keep myself, you know [pause] I never found it easy. No. No. No. AM: What was the element that you found hardest? Was it instruments or aerobatics or — BL: Aerobatics. AM: Right. BL: Aerobatics. I don’t think I could have been a, you know, a fighter pilot. I don’t think so. AM: Right. BL: So, I got what I wanted. The big aircraft. And that’s what I got. I actually didn’t. I mean, I had, when I was chosen to go on to the Flying Boats that was what I had in my mind and I thought I’d got them but no. AM: But you did some Catalina flying in America. BL: Oh, yes. That’s right. AM: Tell me a wee bit about that. What that was like? BL: It was just all training. There was never any, you know actual what you might say offensive work but it was all these long trips training. I think that the longest trip we did, in my mind anyway was the twelve hour trip. AM: Oh gosh. BL: And they were just in a sense letting you see what it was like to travel [laughs] You know. AM: And was it easy to fly? The Catalina. BL: No. It wasn’t easy to fly. It was a very sluggish aircraft. AM: Right. BL: If you wanted to make a left or a right hand turn you had to think about it, you know quite a little while before you went into the turn and that because even though you used the controls she was very slow at responding to them. So you were always, in a sense you had to be ahead of yourself but other than that they were fine. Yeah. AM: So, so then you finished in the Catalina is that when you came back to — BL: Yes. AM: To the UK. BL: Sent back to the UK to wait for a posting to a Boat squadron. AM: Right. BL: I never knew whether I would. I was to be going on a Short Sunderland or the Catalina again and I didn’t know. We were, we stayed in Harrogate for, I think for six weeks waiting on a posting. AM: Right. BL: We came back to Harrogate from the States. AM: So there you are in Harrogate fully expecting to become, to become a maritime pilot. To become a Flying Boat pilot. BL: That’s what I expected to go on to. AM: Right. So, tell me what actually happened then. BL: I don’t know. It just happened. There was no postings came up for a Boat squadron. AM: Right. BL: And I then had to go to Little Rissington and convert in to the Bomber Command. AM: Right. BL: From, oh I forget now. What was the [pause] it doesn’t matter, I think. No. The flying, the Flying Boat commander. What was that called again? AM: Maritime. BL: It was maritime anyway. AM: Yeah. BL: Yeah. So, as I say I went to Little Rissington, converted on to an, on to an Oxford and then from the Oxfords I finally got posted to a squadron to do an OTU which was up in the north of Scotland at Lossiemouth. AM: Right. BL: I think it was. AM: And what, what did you fly at Lossiemouth? BL: Wellingtons. AM: Right. BL: To begin with it was Whitleys. We had a Whitley to begin with. AM: And did you have your own crew at that stage? BL: No. No. Not all of it. And I never flew in a Wellington. That’s not right. I flew the Whitley and I had a part crew. AM: Right. BL: I think I was missing an engineer. Yeah. I think it was the engineer and then from, from there I was posted down to York. And then from York I was posted to [pause] no. I must have done another. Before that happened I was posted to Stoke Orchard for some AFU flying. AM: Right. BL: And then from there I was posted up to Forres actually. More so than Lossiemouth. I didn’t fly from Lossiemouth. It was Forres I flew from, and I flew the Whitley then. AM: Right. BL: And then from there I was posted down to Harrogate and then I joined 77 Squadron. AM: Right. And what, what aircraft did they have then? BL: There they were the Halifax. AM: Right. The Halifax. BL: Yeah. That was Group. 4 Group. And 4 Group were Halifaxes. AM: Right. And had you crewed up by this stage? BL: When I got to Harrogate that was when I picked up my engineer. AM: Right. So how did, how did, tell me a little bit about this process of getting your crew together then. BL: Well, that was left up to ourselves to pick who we wanted and I had it in my mind I wanted to have an all Scottish crew. AM: Right. BL: And I nearly achieved my purpose. I had all, I had I would say six crew plus myself and I had five, and needed an engineer. No. A sparks. I had an engineer. There was a sparks I was missing. AM: Right. BL: A wireless operator you know. AM: Right. BL: I couldn’t get anybody who was Scottish. This was what was, we were given, I think we were given a week, I can’t remember but they had to be, you know, you had to get it done. If you didn’t get it done yourself then they would do it for you. Whoever was in charge. And I had got the five and I got left with one and that was the engineer and I had a day to go. That was all. So, I thought well I’ll have to pick on somebody. I did ask a chap and he was quite happy. Yes. That was okay. He would come and join them and blow me down but the next day a chap came up to me, a Scottish lad and this chap who had asked to come as, you know the last member of the crew he was English and the lad who came up to me the next day was Scottish. I just missed out on having an all Scottish crew. AM: Right. BL: So I don’t think there would have been too many of those, you know. AM: No. I don’t think so at all. So, by the time you got to the squadron about how many Halifax sorties had you done on the OTU, roughly? BL: I would say very few. I mean my first operational trip was to a place called Russelsheim in Germany. And I only did I think three or four trips altogether when I found myself in the CO’s office saying to me that there was a posting he would like to, ‘Would you like to go on a posting somewhere else?’ He said. And I said, ‘Yeah. I don’t mind.’ He says, ‘Well, we’ll have you posted and your crew and you’ll be leaving tonight.’ Just like that [laughs] And that’s what happened and we moved, we flew down to [pause] it’s a Transport Command station in the south of England. Still in operation today and I can’t think of the name of it. AM: Was it, was it Lyneham? BL: No. No. No. It wasn’t far from Lyneham but it wasn’t Lyneham. It was another name. So we spent a night. Yeah. We spent the night there. We flew down there and spent the night and the following night we boarded a Hudson not going, not knowing where we were going. Just going on to, there was, you know another crew and ourselves and flying out as passengers. Nobody told you where you were going and it wasn’t, the first place we touched down at on the way out was Gibraltar to refuel and get breakfast. We had breakfast of bacon and eggs. AM: Right [laughs] BL: And then we took off and we flew along the north coast of Africa until we got to [pause] I can’t remember now though I did, I think we [pause] yes we landed at what was called Cairo West. It was an airfield. The airport or the airfield was in the desert. AM: Right. BL: And that’s where we landed and that was with 216 Squadron, which was the squadron that I had been posted to. That’s where it operated from, this squadron in the desert. AM: And this was still on the Halifax. BL: And they were flying DC3s then. AM: Right. BL: Left the Halifax behind. AM: But you flew the Halifax in Italy did you not? BL: When I went up to, when I went up to there. When I got posted there. From there I got posted up to Naples and then in Naples I was posted down to Brindisi and they were fitted out with Halifaxes. AM: Right. Which Mark of Halifaxes was that? BL: It was the Mark, the Mark 2 I think it was. AM: Right. And what was the, what was the role of that squadron? BL: That was a special duties squadron. AM: Right. BL: So that was simply feeding the guerrilla fighters, if you like with guns, ammunition, and food and clothing and they would go and do drops wherever they set up a dropping zone. AM: And was, whereabouts were these drop zones? Yugoslavia or — BL: Mainly in the Yugoslav. Mainly in the Balkans. AM: Right. BL: Various places in the Balkans and usually they would be somewhere in a clearing in the hills. There was usually hills around about you. AM: Yeah. BL: You seldom got a, you know a dropping zone which was clear. AM: And were these drops being done by day or by night? BL: By day. AM: Right. And what sort of height were you dropping from? BL: About eight hundred to five hundred feet. AM: Oh, my God. And was it mainly stores or people or both? BL: No. There was some people. Joes we called them. We went some, there was two or three flights with Joes on board but mainly it was air supplies. AM: Right. BL: It was. And — AM: I understand you were involved with dropping some of the agents involved with the recovery of the Nazi art, is that correct? BL: That’s right. Yes. That was as I say. That took place. Not that I knew it at the time but there is a book written about it. AM: Right. This one. “The Monument Men.” Is that it? BL: The, “Monument Men.” Yeah. AM: Right. BL: Right. Yes. I flew them in to where we had to drop them off and where they were going was we landed on a plateau and as I say it was Norway. We didn’t land on the plateau. We dropped them off over the target. AM: Right. BL: And it was snow covered at the time. It was in the wintertime, and we left them at that and where they were going was down in to the valley and we could see the lights. AM: In to Berchtesgaden area was it? BL: Pardon? AM: Was that at Berchtesgaden in southern Germany? Or was it — BL: No. That wasn’t the name. There’s another name for it. It’s mentioned in the “Monument Men.” AM: Right. BL: But I can’t think of it. Anyway — AM: Did you ever have a chance to talk to these people you were going to drop? BL: I didn’t but my mid-upper gunner did. AM: Right. BL: Well, that was his previous job. That’s what, he’d been trained as a mid-upper gunner but when we were flying as the special duties which is what we did most of, as I say, we had only done I think three or four bombing trips. He got talking the odd time but most times the people, they didn’t speak English or they wouldn’t speak English whatever way it was. They didn’t say anything about what they had to do. AM: Right. BL: There was, there was one story came back to us. I think it really came back to us. One story came back saying we’d dropped them in the wrong place and well as far as I was concerned and the navigator was concerned we dropped them where we were told when we got our briefing before going off on the flight. And sometime later we discovered that it was a habit of the ops people that they would be there telling us where we were going. Not telling us where we were going but telling us a false place. In other words the idea that was that somebody had been talking to us, or we inadvertently said something about where we were going to do the drops but we wouldn’t be there because that was all changed. AM: So it was a decoy really. BL: It was a decoy. Yeah. AM: Right. BL: And the final dropping zone we got when we went to our final briefing, not until then. AM: Let, let me just take you back a bit to your, your early bombing sorties on, on the Halifax when you were still based in, in Yorkshire. BL: York. AM: Yeah. At Elvington and Full Sutton. What was your first bombing sortie? Was that a day sortie or a night sortie? BL: No. It was a night sortie. AM: Right. BL: I went as a second pilot actually. AM: Right. And what was that like having for the first time — ? BL: We were bombing from I think about ten thousand feet and that was just you know all the lights and everything else. I’d never seen anything like it. AM: No. There was a lot of flak. BL: Yes. There was some flak. Yes. But I just did the one trip, you know. AM: Right. And then you went off with your own crew. BL: Yes. AM: And what were the first bombing sorties you did then? BL: Well, again that was just the [pause] the next day. I never knew what we were dropping you know in a sense of what our bomb load was. AM: Right. BL: Never, never sort of saw into that. The only thing was that there was one trip we had to do and that was daylight trip. We were supposed to be bombing behind the British lines but before we got there. I mean in France this was. AM: Right. BL: But before we actually got to the, where we were supposed to be dropping these behind the British lines, as it were word came through the radio operator that we had to return home and drop our bombs in the Channel. The operation was off. It was cancelled. And of course they didn’t want you landing with live bombs. AM: No. BL: At the airport. So that’s what happened. That was the only time it did happen and we dropped them in the, in the Channel. AM: Right. So these were sorties to support the British troops in Normandy. BL: That’s right. AM: Right. And did you do any sorties against the V-1 sites or — BL: No. No. Aye. Probably we did. But I didn’t — AM: You mentioned Russelsheim in Germany. BL: Yeah. That was the very first trip I did. AM: Right. BL: That was a night trip. AM: Right. BL: But I think that’s why it sticks in my mind. AM: I can imagine. And were most of those sorties you did at that stage day trips? BL: No. No. Only because, only, we only did three or four trips. I should go and get my log book and look it. AM: Yeah. You can do. [unclear] BL: That’s fine. That’ll do it. [recording paused] AM: Perfect. BL: I think it was Full Sutton. That was where I was at, look. AM: Yeah. Bill, if you can just tell me a wee bit about what life was like at, at Full Sutton. BL: Well, I can’t say that there was any outstanding other than just if there was an operational on we’d get our briefing during the day we had, spent at you know in the camp or went in to York [pause] Like I say I spent a lot of time on my own. I didn’t go around with a group of lads. AM: Right. BL: I was, I suppose I was considered a loner. AM: Right. BL: So there was nothing. AM: So, what was, what was the social life in the mess like? BL: Well, it was alright. I mean, I just met up, you know, I knew a few lads. There was one other chap that we were, I was quite, kind of friendly with that kept in touch after the war as well but he has died. He died several years ago. AM: Right. BL: I’m trying to remember now. Something about [pause] you see my memory’s gone now. AM: I think all of us suffer a bit from our memories fading a wee bit. BL: My memory’s gone for lots of things. AM: So when you, when you, when you left the RAF and, and joined the Reserve where did you move to then? BL: Well, we used to go to Grangemouth. AM: Right. BL: And we’d go there, you know for I would not only get there on a Sunday I didn’t get there every weekend and I never spent a weekend at Grangemouth but I went there and did fly in a Tiger Moth over there. AM: Right. BL: So that was really what we did at Grangemouth. AM: And what sort of flying was that in the Tiger Moth? Was it flying cadets or — BL: No. AM: Just training. BL: Just training. We had a good commander there. You’d go off, off solo. AM: Yeah. BL: You know, you passed out and I mean most of the flying was done solo so that was interesting. And you know as I say was [pause] I’ve forgotten the name of it. AM: And where were you working at this stage? BL: Well, to begin with, before I joined up I was working in a cinema as a projectionist. AM: Right. BL: And when I came back I went back to the company and I got a job back again as a projectionist. And then from there I left that and I went to work at the Hoover people in the Hoover factory. That was just simply a production job. I was just checking out the, the [pause] what would you call it now, what would you call it? The electric. They were making electric motors. AM: Yes. BL: And that was a question you had to check. Just, I mean it was a dead simple job. AM: And was this at Cambuslang? BL: That was at Cambuslang. AM: Right. BL: That’s right. AM: So, what did the people around about you think about having an RAF pilot working in the Hoover factory? They must have remarked on it. BL: Well, I don’t think anybody knew. I don’t think anybody were any the wiser. AM: No. BL: I never talked about it. AM: You never told them. BL: No. AM: Right. That’s amazing. Right. I suppose that must have been quite common after the war. That people went from being, you know aircraft captains. BL: Oh aye. AM: To being, working on a shop floor. BL: Yeah. Well, you see I was lucky enough, I don’t remember now but I mean as I say I joined up in the Reserve, and there was an exhibition in Glasgow in the Kelvin Hall and the RAF VR had a stand there. So naturally I went along there and talked to them and that’s when I joined up again. AM: Right. BL: Went back into the Reserves and then started going to Grangemouth and doing some flying from Grangemouth. And then Grangemouth closed down and I went to Perth. Again, it was just weekend flying for a wee while but eventually I got a job in Perth as a staff pilot. AM: Right. BL: That’s what started me off. AM: Right. BL: You know. Up until then I was just sort of dodging around. I really hadn’t a proper job, a fixed job when I came back. AM: And were you married by this time? BL: I’d got married by then. Yes. AM: Aye. So you needed a steady job. BL: Yeah. AM: So where did you go from Airworks? BL: Aer Lingus AM: Right. So you moved to Ireland. BL: We moved to Ireland. Yes. AM: Right. BL: That’s right. AM: And when you started with Aer Lingus what were you flying? BL: A DC3. AM: Right. So, back to something you knew. BL: That’s exactly. That’s why I got the job. AM: Right. And how long did you fly the DC3 with Aer Lingus for? BL: Quite a long while. AM: Right. BL: Because that’s all they had. AM: Right. BL: Were DC3s but eventually they got — AM: Was it a Viscount? BL: Viscounts. AM: Right. BL: Viscounts. That was it. They got the Viscount and then they got the others. What was that called? It was a Dutch plane. F something. AM: Oh, F-27. BL: F-27, that’s right. AM: Yeah. BL: I knew those so I flew those. AM: Right. Nice aeroplane. BL: It was. Yes. And what did I do after that? AM: Did you not finish on the Boeing? BL: I might. I finished on the Boeing at Aer Lingus. Yes. AM: Right. So, it was the first — BL: When I went to Aer Lingus that was the last employer I had. AM: Right. And what, was the Boeing 737 the first jet aeroplane you flew? BL: I would say so. Yes. AM: I think that’s fantastic. BL: Yes. I went to the States to convert on to it. AM: Right. BL: Yeah. Yeah. So it was, in fact it was the first 737 to be flying in Europe. So it was. AM: Right. BL: At that time. AM: Right. So that’s quite an accolade to go over and pick up the first 737. BL: Yeah. AM: And when you retired you were on the Boeing 737. BL: Yes. AM: Right. BL: Yes. I never left them. Oh, well I did actually. I flew the 70, 720 for a while. I did, oh I spent the best part of a year I think, six months or a year as a navigator. They were short of navigators. AM: Gosh. BL: At one period when they were flying the Atlantic and they were using the 720 I think it was. And I flew in that as the navigator. Didn’t fly as a pilot. AM: Right. BL: I was a navigator because I had my navigator’s licence. AM: Right. BL: And then when I finished that section I got moved into the pilot’s seat. The co-pilot, and just continued from there and eventually moved in to the captain’s seat. AM: Right. BL: Finished my time as a captain. I wish in a way you know it was all down in writing and not up here. AM: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. BL: Because I can’t remember. AM: Yeah. BL: I can’t remember now an awful lot. My memory is actually worse now than it used to be. AM: Bill, it’s a remarkable story and it’s been a great pleasure listening to you, and meeting you and hearing the story of your life. BL: I’ve been [pause] It’s been an enjoyable life. AM: Yeah. BL: I’ve been lucky. Very lucky, with all the different places I went to. Were able to fly from. AM: Yeah. BL: With different aircraft. AM: And flown some lovely aeroplanes. Bill, thank you. I’ll switch that off now. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Leckie Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alastair Montgomery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ALeckieW190322 PLeckieW1901 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:39:32 audio recording Description An account of the resource Bill Leckie was born in Glasgow but moved to the countryside, as his father suffered from bronchitis. Initially, working as a cinema projectionist, Bill joined the Royal Air Force at the age of 18, enlisting at St John’s Wood in London as a trainee pilot. Bill undertook basic training at RAF Babbacombe in Devon before being sent overseas to Halifax, Canada. He was then sent onwards to Pensacola for flying training, where his flying training included Stearmans. Bill found aerobatics hard and thought he would prefer flying the flying boats. He flew Catalinas, which he describes as sluggish and slow to respond to control inputs. Bill was then sent back to RAF Harrogate waiting for a posting, expecting to be sent to fly flying boats as part of Coastal Command. Instead he was sent to Bomber Command at RAF Little Rissington where he trained on Oxfords before being sent to an operational training unit at RAF Lossiemouth. There he flew Whitleys and Wellingtons. Bill was then posted to 77 Squadron in Harrogate to fly the Halifaxes. With his Scottish crew, he took part in a handful of operations from RAF Elvington and RAF Full Sutton. Later, Bill was flown to Cairo, via Gibraltar, to join 216 Squadron. Bill was also stationed at Brindisi in Italy, flying the Halifax Mk2 as part of a ‘special duties’ squadron dropping supplies and agents, mainly in the Balkans. He took part in dropping agents sent to recover the Nazi’s looted art works. After the war, Bill returned to his job as a cinema projectionist and then later joined Hoover, working in production. Later, Bill moved to Ireland and flew with the airline Aer Lingus, where he flew several types of aircraft, including the Douglas DC-3 pilot and Vickers Viscount. Before his retirement, Bill was flying some of the first Boeing 737 jet airliners in Europe, having been trained in the United States. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Andy Shaw Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Carolyn Emery Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Canada Nova Scotia Nova Scotia--Halifax United States Florida Florida--Pensacola England--Devon England--Yorkshire England--Gloucestershire England--Harrogate North Africa Egypt Egypt--Cairo Italy Italy--Brindisi Ireland Florida Great Britain Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944 216 Squadron 77 Squadron aircrew bombing C-47 Catalina crewing up Halifax Halifax Mk 2 Heavy Conversion Unit Oxford pilot RAF Elvington RAF Full Sutton RAF Little Rissington RAF Lossiemouth Resistance Special Operations Executive Stearman training Whitley https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1247/16364/PLeckieW1901.1.jpg 66b1611784af6fa1e98248f944c26165 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1247/16364/ALeckieW190301.1.mp3 185254f66ba9edae008767004775a37b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Leckie, Bill William Leckie W Leckie Description An account of the resource Two oral history interviews with Bill Leckie (1921 - 2021). He flew operations as a pilot with 216 and 77 Squadrons. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Leckie, W Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AM: Right. Bill, good afternoon. How are you? BL: Fine. Kind of alright. AM: Right. BL: Kind of alright. Not that brilliant. AM: Right. BL: I’ve just come back from, I had a couple of days with our son and we spent two full days as it were travelling. AM: Right. BL: And they took me to one of my old haunts where I used to spend as a young boy on my holidays in the summertime because it’s where my granny lived. AM: Right. BL: So I spent summer with my granny down at the seaside. Down in a place called Drummore which is in Galloway. AM: Right. BL: It supposedly has the name of being the most southerly village in Scotland. AM: Right. And it’s called — BL: Drummore. AM: Drummore. Right. I know where it is now. BL: There’s another one in Ireland, Northern Ireland but it’s got a different spelling. AM: Right. BL: But it’s still Dromore. Yes. AM: Right. Let’s check that, see how it is. [recording paused] AM: Right. I’m sure that will be fine. I’ll put it further over. There we are. Okay. Right. So there, so it was a bit sluggish to fly. BL: Oh yes. It was but I mean it wasn’t a fast aircraft, plane but it was nice to fly. AM: What about the landing in water? What was that like? BL: Well, it was different to landing on the land although not that you’re [unclear] any different but you’re along the floor in period because you’d such a long runway. AM: Right. BL: But, but you still had you know a certain distance to land in as I say but most of the landings float landings and again as I say I enjoyed flying. It was, I was sorry I didn’t get on to a squadron. So I mean when I finished the conversion in that way I then had to go back up to Canada. Up to Prince Edward Island to do a reconnaissance course. You had to do that as part of your training as a conversion for Coastal Command. AM: Right. You said a reconnaissance course. Was that in the air? BL: Yes. AM: And was that also in the Catalina? BL: No. Oh no. AM: No. BL: We didn’t do any Catalina flying once away from Pensacola. AM: Right. BL: That was the end of it. We went on to Stearmans. AM: Oh right. BL: And I had to do another course in that way. It was a funny way. A terrible waste of time that was. It took me nearly four years to get to a squadron. AM: Yes. [unclear] yeah. BL: I came back then but I came back to Harrogate and I was stationed in Harrogate for I think about six or eight weeks. AM: Right. BL: Waiting to get a posting. AM: And presumably at this stage you assumed you were going to go to Flying Boats. BL: We were still supposed to be going. That’s why we were being held up in Harrogate. AM: Right. BL: Waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting. It was okay but I’d rather have been on and get on. But anyway, it didn’t happen and I’d to do another course and this was on the [pause] I ended up on the early Chipmunks. I forget where we went to [pause] Oh, it’s the Central Flying School now. What do you call it down there? AM: Was it the Empire Flying School or — BL: Possibly it was, no it wouldn’t be the Empire Flying School. It was. My memory is elusive. AM: And whereabouts was this? BL: This was still in the Harrogate area. AM: Oh you’re still in the Harrogate area. Right. BL: Yeah. As I was — AM: So it’s in Yorkshire. BL: Yes. It was all still classroom work. AM: Right. BL: Until eventually I got posted to [pause] where was it? I’ve forgotten some of that. AM: Don’t worry. BL: The next thing that comes to my mind I was posted up to the north of Scotland up to a place called Forres. AM: Right. BL: And we had to do flying there. Again, I was in for Bomber Command I had lost the Coastal Command. Come out of, been posted out of that and into Bomber Command. AM: And when you were in Forres what aircraft were you flying there? BL: When I got to the end of [unclear] [pause] see, I’ve forgotten. AM: Was this part of the Conversion Unit to Bomber Command? BL: I guess it would be. Would be [pause] no, I’ve come to a stop. AM: So when did you move on to the Halifax? BL: What? AM: How did that come about? BL: Well, that came about after the posting back down south when I was posted to York. AM: Right. BL: And from York I stayed around York all the time. I never left 4 Group. AM: Right. BL: Because that was the Halifax Group and I was always on the Halifax and I stopped there. AM: So where did you, where did you join up? Or when did you join up with your crew? And how did you go about selecting your crew? BL: I can’t remember the name of the place but I think it was probably Harrogate. AM: Right. BL: And we just sort of, you know mingled around and you know the lads who were looking for a skipper and I’d be looking for somebody and you’d get talking to somebody. You’d ask them if they were looking for a skipper and I mean if you had thought to yourself well he would do and the crew, he’s in, and if he said okay well then that was it. AM: Right. BL: That was the way off. You picked your own crew. AM: And did you have a sort of mixed nationalities on your crew? BL: It started off that I was going to have, try to get a Scottish crew. AM: Right. BL: And I managed to a point up ‘til finding a wireless operator. I couldn’t find a Scottish wireless operator. AM: Right. BL: But the usual happened when I finally made my decision on a chap the following day a lad came up, a Scottish lad came up to me to say, ‘Are you looking for a Scottish the wireless operator?’ And I said, ‘Yes, I was up until today.’ And I’d I mean I’d already agreed with the other chap and he was an English chap. Nice chap. I mean I liked him well enough but that would have been the whole crew would have been Scottish and — AM: Right. That would have been pretty unusual I would have thought. BL: Might have been. Yes. Might have been. And so my wife, who wasn’t my wife then. We were just engaged. But she bought scarves. Little Scottish scarves there. The Clan MacGregor scarves. And each one of the crew got one. AM: Right. BL: She bought a scarf for each of them. AM: I have to ask you why was it the Clan MacGregor? BL: Because that’s my clan. AM: Right. Right. BL: I’m [unclear] the Clan MacGregor. AM: Right. And everybody was quite happy to wear the MacGregor tartan then. BL: Oh, I never thought any the [unclear] [laughs] AM: So, so what was the sort of conversion period with your crew like? I mean presumably you were probably the oldest in the crew. Was that right? BL: I would say. AM: Yeah. BL: I would. AM: And you must have also been very unusual to be engaged. BL: Yeah. Well, I’ve, I’d known my wife for, or my future wife when I was seventeen to eighteen and that. She was seventeen and I was eighteen. AM: Right. BL: When we first went out on holiday. AM: Right. BL: And we just stayed together. I wouldn’t get married. We didn’t get married until after I’d finished. We just stayed engaged. AM: Until, when you say after. You mean after the war. BL: After the war. Yes. Right. AM: Right. BL: Yeah. AM: And was that fairly commonplace for aircrew to delay getting married until after the war? BL: I wouldn’t say it was commonplace. No. In fact, I think it was possibly the other way. AM: Right. It was what you both were comfortable with. BL: Yes. We were. My wife was of the same mind as myself. There was no point in doing something [unclear] the way I was. I didn’t know how long I could last and she would have been a widow. So, but it never came to it but we stayed friends. I don’t know. AM: So after your conversion period with your crew you went to your first squadron. And what was your first squadron? BL: 77. AM: 77. So that was at, was that at Elvington? BL: It was actually but I only spent about ten days there. AM: Right. BL: And we were all moved to Full Sutton. AM: Right. BL: To give Elvington over to the Free French. AM: Right. BL: The Free French squadron went to Elvington. AM: Right. So how did you feel about leaving Elvington for Full Sutton? BL: Didn’t like it. AM: Why was that? BL: Well, Elvington was a peacetime station. Full Sutton was new. AM: Right. BL: It had just been put up for the wartime so it wasn’t the same. Wasn’t the same accommodation. AM: Right. BL: But it was okay. We liked everything else but I mean I preferred Elvington. AM: So tell me about some of the sorties you flew from Elvington or, or Full Sutton while you were still in Bomber Command. BL: I feel — AM: Do you want me to stop it for a wee bit? BL: Ah huh. AM: You can have a wee rest anyway. [recording paused] BL: [unclear] up to a point I think that was the last flight I did. AM: Okay. BL: That was five hours and thirteen minutes and — AM: Just a wee — BL: It was a raid. It was just part of a raid. AM: Okay. I’ve switched it on. Bill, tell me just, tell me just a little bit more about your time on 77 Squadron at Full Sutton and what the kind of operational missions that you did there. What were the main types of target? BL: Well, according to one that is printed in here they were flying bomb sites. AM: Right. BL: The first one I visited was at the forest of Nieppe in France. And the next one again that was the same one. Nieppe, in the same place. That same one. So that was twice I visited that. On the 5th and then on the 6th of August. AM: And were these day sorties or night sorties? BL: Day sorties. AM: Right. BL: Yeah. They were day sorties or was it a night sortie? Which was something to do with the German Army. AM: Right. BL: It was [unclear] AM: Would that be — BL: France. AM: Would that be supporting the invasion troops? BL: That was on August the 7th. AM: Right. ’44. BL: ’44. AM: Yeah. BL: And then I did another trip back to France. Back to a different oil storage dump. And then the next target we flew was on the [unclear] There was one on the 9th. The next one was on the 11th. It was the railway repair shops. And then on the 12th I went to a place, a flying bomb factory at Russelsheim. AM: Right. Before you did these sorties were you given on any briefing on the flying bomb itself and what its role was or — BL: No, we never. Oh no, we knew about the bomb, what the flying bomb was alright but apart from that — AM: It was just a target. BL: It was a target yes. AM: Right. And particularly on the day sorties did you see any enemy fighters or — BL: No. I was, no. Not at all. AM: Right. BL: No. Never intercepted. AM: And what about the flak on the night sortie to Russelsheim? BL: Yes. There was some we had. I don’t know where it was. We went out to the bombing more or less the bombing altitude was high bombed then after we had bombed we made a crash dive to get down to five hundred feet or a thousand feet. AM: Right. BL: And came back. Low level flying all the way. So we did. AM: Tell me before you went on a mission like your last one to Russelsheim what was the sort of feeling like in the squadron and what was the attitude of people like? BL: I don’t remember. AM: No. What about your own crew? How did they — BL: Like myself I think they accepted the fact that it was part of the job. AM: Right. BL: We were going. AM: Right. And — BL: I mean you never knew until you went to the briefing room where you were going. AM: Right. BL: We didn’t know the target. So we went to the briefing for it. AM: And by this stage in the war were you, were you aware of the extent of Bomber Command losses or was it something that wasn’t talked about? BL: I’d say that we were aware of it alright. Yes. It was because the posting came through to go elsewhere and I was quite happy to go. AM: Right. BL: Because I was getting out and being posted overseas. I knew that. AM: Right. BL: I was going overseas. I didn’t know when but it just it turned out it was Italy. AM: And how, how did you find it’s difficult to remember this perhaps but what was the morale like on the station at Long Sutton at this stage of the war? Was it fairly buoyant or — BL: Well, I would say it was. As I say I wasn’t one for, I wasn’t one for mixing. AM: Right. BL: So — AM: So what, what was mess life like for instance? BL: Well, it was just you went and you had your meal and chatted to somebody or other and you got to know them. AM: And what rank were you at this stage? BL: I would be a sergeant. AM: Right. BL: At that stage. AM: And by the way were all your crew NCOs or did you have — BL: Yes. No, I had no officer crew. AM: Right. BL: No. AM: And was that, how did that compare to the rest of the squadron? Were there a number of all NCO? BL: No idea. AM: No. No. I don’t think I would. So I mean the sergeant’s mess was obviously a kind of lively place. Would you — BL: Oh yes. That’s right. Yes. Well, I mean I went right through from sergeant all the way up to flight lieutenant in the end. AM: Right. BL: So that was just the way it worked. AM: So you said you were selected to leave 78 Squadron and go overseas. How did that come about? Do you remember? Was that a surprise or —? BL: Oh, it was a surprise. Yes. Well what it was, it wasn’t a surprise entirely but it was a surprise as to where I went. I didn’t know where I went. It was just it was put on the notice board that there was two or three crews who were wanted to go overseas. And I thought to myself well this is just, you know the being in the UK and in the bombing stream you were a sitting target all the time and it was, it was danger. As much danger up there from other aircraft as you were as from the anti-aircraft so I thought that was kind of a thing you know. Time to get out of it and get overseas which is what happened. AM: Right. And did you go overseas as a crew? Did your whole crew go with you? BL: Yes. AM: Right. And where did you go to? BL: Started off in Naples. AM: Right. BL: And then we were sent from Naples to Brindisi. AM: Right. BL: And that’s where we stayed. AM: Right. BL: Until we finished the operation. AM: Right. And what sort of sorties on the understanding you were no longer technically part of Bomber Command but you were still flying a bomber aircraft. The Halifax. BL: Oh yes. That was the Halifax. AM: Right. And what, what were these sorties? BL: Well, the sorties were just to different parts mainly in Yugoslavia that the partisans had occupied for a certain time. AM: Right. BL: But they were well within the German lines. Behind the German lines. AM: Right. BL: But there was, no there was never much activity in the German lines at all. AM: And were you flying these as a single aircraft or as a — BL: A single aircraft. AM: Right. And what, what sort of things were you dropping? BL: Oh, mainly ammunition or rifles and food as well. AM: Right. BL: General. General supply aircraft so you would. AM: And were these dropped, were these drops down from medium altitude or relatively — BL: Yes. AM: Right. BL: About eight, eight hundred to seven hundred feet. AM: Oh, seven hundred feet. So that was quite low really. BL: Oh yes. I had to come down to eight hundred, between that and five hundred. AM: And was this by day or by night? BL: Sometimes by night but usually if it was by night it would be by moonlight. AM: Right. Because presumably you had to try and drop really accurately. BL: Well, yes. You had to do your best. AM: Right. BL: It was up to the bomb aimer really. AM: Right. BL: You know. AM: And this was all in 148 Squadron. BL: No. No. That was in 77. AM: 77 Squadron, sorry. Right. And that’s all still in the Halifax. BL: Oh yes. AM: Was it the same version of the Halifax that you had flown on as a bomber pilot? BL: Yes, it was. AM: Right. BL: But we soon changed to the, well you might say the Mark 2 Halifax. AM: Right. BL: But I did fly the Mark 1 Halifax for quite some time. That was the one with the triangular tail. AM: Right. BL: Instead of the square tail. AM: Right. Okay. BL: Yeah. And it wasn’t so good for stability. AM: Right. BL: Putting on the square rudders at the end when they made the change helped a lot. AM: Right. And had they changed the engines as well at that stage or — BL: No. AM: That same engine. BL: That came later. AM: Right. BL: [unclear] AM: Right. And as well as dropping supplies and weaponry did you drop any personnel? BL: Yes. Joes we called them. Yes. AM: What did you call them? BL: Joes. AM: Joes. Right. BL: Joes. AM: And did you have anything to do with them or were they just cargo. BL: The person who had to deal with them was the chap who was the mid-upper gunner in the original crew. He was a dispatcher. He was known as the dispatcher. AM: Right. BL: He did a dispatcher’s course. AM: Right. BL: They had a special area in where the, these chaps who were coming in and they were going to be dropped you know by parachute so most of them had never done any parachute training you see so they had to be trained. AM: Right. BL: And so our dispatcher had to go along on a course. AM: Right. BL: A training course because he had to see them out and he was the one who organised them for getting out of the aircraft. AM: And was it usually just one of these Joes or did you sometimes drop a couple of them? BL: Oh, we dropped three or four of them. AM: Right. BL: Sometimes. Yeah. AM: Right. Gosh. That must have been fascinating to say the least. BL: I must say I never actually saw any of them. AM: No. BL: You know, the only one that, I mean the dispatcher was the one who would speak to them generally speaking but very often they were local people. They weren’t really English speakers. AM: Right. So they would, they would be Serbs or Croats or — BL: Aye, could be. But it was the dispatcher who had to speak or did speak with them. None of the other members of the crew were involved. AM: Right. BL: And there was only one instance I remember where he talked, the chappie he had been speaking to could speak any English and we knew more or less where we were going. You know, once we had been given a target and it seemed as according to this chap we were passing the town where we were going to be dropping this chap and he lived in that town and his wife was still living there. AM: Gosh. BL: And there were some lights in the town funnily enough. It wasn’t completely blacked out. And so we were dropping, dropping zones up the hillside on a plateau. AM: Really. BL: The village he was heading for was down the road. AM: Right. BL: Eventually, well not eventually the word came back or we got word back that they didn’t make it and they complained that we had dropped them not in the right exact spot. But we dropped them where we were told to drop them and the reason that was given, nothing was officially said but the reason that we got to know about the fact that we dropped them according to as far as the lad said we had dropped him in the wrong place and that was done on purpose because they didn’t want the Germans to know there was anybody down on the ground who could see there was going to be a drop in this area. So that was that. So the actual dropping spot wasn’t known until we were briefed that night to go. AM: Right. Right. BL: So — AM: And did you do any, any drops over southern Germany or — BL: I couldn’t tell you that. AM: No. I remember reading somewhere — BL: I don’t think so. AM: I remember reading somewhere that you were involved with a drop that took place near Berchtesgaden. BL: Yeah. No. I didn’t do anything like that. No. We were in the Balkan Army. AM: Right. BL: That was all that we were in. AM: Right. I think somebody said you were involved in this project called, which became the film, “The Monument Men.” Is that correct? BL: Oh yes. They did portray that. Yes. AM: Right. So what happened with that? What was the story behind it? BL: Oh, well it was to do with the Germans had, had captured a lot of stuff. Hitler’s souvenirs or whatever you call it and they wanted to come through. I mean this was at the time when Jerry was in retreat, you know, moving back. And they were supposed to destroy a collection of paintings and one thing, and artifacts and one thing or another which were being held in this area. And the chaps we were dropping they were going down to safeguard these things. AM: Right. BL: They were being dropped in the areas so we dropped them in the area and they then made their way down in to the village and I think, I don’t know what really happened after that but they was lads that we had dropped down. They were supposed to be going down to and they were going to take over and [unclear] or something. I don’t know. Something to do with safeguarding these supposedly at the point priceless things that Hitler had, you know — AM: Requisitioned. BL: Requisitioned. Yes. AM: Right. BL: Yeah. AM: Gosh. So you finished the war still in in the Balkans flying. BL: Oh yes. Yes. AM: Right. BL: I was posted from there down to, you know Italy. Down to Brindisi. AM: Right. BL: And what was lifelike in Brindisi at that stage of the war? AM: Very [pause] very easy I think. There was nothing much different about it and we sort of in some ways you made your own amusement and whoever your friends were and as I say I was much of a loner. I didn’t go out much at all. So I didn’t go down into the town of Brindisi like some of the lads would go down there and they didn’t know where they were by the time the night went out. I’m afraid that was never my style but — BL: So what was it like the sort of the day or the couple of days around when the war actually came to an end? What was the atmosphere like? AM: Well, I wasn’t, I wasn’t in the squadron. I was on 216 Squadron at that time. BL: Right. So you’d moved on from the Halifax. AM: I’d moved on from the Halifax. I was flying a Dakota. BL: Right. And — AM: And that was immediate. BL: Right. So you moved before the end of the war. AM: Oh I did. Yes. BL: From Brindisi to Italy. AM: Yes. That’s right. BL: Right. Right. AM: So that’s quite a change going from the Halifax to the — BL: Oh of course. I quite enjoyed that because I’d had quite a bit of flying in the Dakota anyway. AM: Right. BL: Before that. AM: So when the war came to an end you were in Italy. BL: Yes. AM: And you were a flight lieutenant by now. Is that right? BL: No. I was a pilot officer. AM: Pilot officer. Right. Sorry. Right. So where were you when you were commissioned? Were you in Italy or in Egypt? BL: Italy. AM: Italy. Right. BL: I think. [pause] Yes. I was in Italy because I had to go across to Algiers to get my uniform. AM: Right. Was it your uniform was made in Algiers? Your uniform was made in Algiers. BL: I don’t know about being made there but — AM: But that’s where you had to go. BL: That’s where the stores were. AM: Gosh. So you took an aeroplane over to get your uniform. BL: I had to go. AM: That’s brilliant. BL: As a passenger. AM: Right. BL: Yeah. AM: So how long did you spend in Egypt on 216 Squadron? [pause] AM: I can switch this off for a minute. We can have a wee rest. [recording paused] AM: Bill, I know you’re looking at your logbook at the moment but what was the total number of operational hours that you flew? BL: Two hundred and sixteen you might say in round figures. AM: Gosh. So when you retired from the Air Force you were flying — BL: Well, I didn’t. I was in the Reserve and stayed on in the Reserve and I would do weekend flying. AM: And what aeroplane was that on? BL: That would be on the Tiger Moth. AM: Right. Right. BL: Later on [unclear] I went on to Chipmunks. AM: Right. Which must have been quite good fun. BL: Oh yes. It was a much improved. Much improved. AM: And just to conclude tell me a little bit about the latter part of your life because you went back into professional flying didn’t you? BL: Oh, I did. Yes. I did. Yeah. AM: And what did you do? BL: I was flying the thing it was just a transport squadron. Not a squadron. It was a, I was down for flying at the weekends when I first went back having finished in the Air Force as such. But I went to [pause] to Perth and we got there at the weekends and flying up there and did some link work for one thing. And then eventually a staff pilot’s job came up which I applied for and got and that started my career. AM: Right. BL: And started flying fully on the full time in Perth. AM: And which, which company did you go to fly with? BL: Airwork. AM: Airworks? BL: Ahum. AM: Right. And after that? BL: That was it. AM: Right. Did you not move to Aer Lingus? BL: Oh yes. Sorry. Yes. I left Airwork and went to Aer Lingus. That’s right. AM: Right. And what, what was your, what was your final aeroplane with Aer Lingus? BL: The three hundred. The Boeing. AM: Boeing 737. BL: The Boeing 737. That was it. Yeah. AM: Right. And that was your, if you were to, this is a terrible question but if you’d to fly one aeroplane again what would you choose to fly? BL: What would I choose to fly? [pause] Well, I always enjoyed flying a large aeroplane. That’s what I wanted to do and what I got to do. So I suppose you might as well say the [pause] I think possibly the Dakota would be the aircraft — AM: Right. BL: [unclear] to fly because it was a nice aeroplane to fly. Very tricky to land but not much. You could make a mess of it. So, you could. So I’d say the Dakota. AM: Right. Well, Bill Leckie, Captain Bill Leckie, Flight Lieutenant Bill Leckie, thank you very much indeed. That’s it. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bill Leckie. One Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alastair Montgomery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2019-03-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context ALeckieW190301, PLeckieW1901 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:38:00 incomplete audio recording Description An account of the resource Bill would spend his school holidays with his grandmother in Scotland. He went to St Edward Island in Canada to do a reconnaissance course, after which he went to Harrogate to await posting. He completed another course on Chipmunks before being posted to Scotland, leaving Coastal Command to join Bomber Command working on the Halifax. His crew, which joined 77 Squadron at Elvington, were all Scottish. They mainly carried out operations to Yugoslavia dropping weapons, food and, occasionally, personnel by parachute. The crew went overseas south of Naples. He was posted to Brindisi and then spent time in Egypt with 216 Squadron. Bill ended his RAF career as a pilot officer and was commissioned while in Italy. Post-war, he got a full-time pilot’s job with Airworks before moving to Aer Lingus, flying Boeing 737. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Canada Prince Edward Island Great Britain Scotland England--Harrogate England--Yorkshire Italy Italy--Naples Italy--Brindisi France France--Nieppe Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sue Smith Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Carolyn Emery Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Royal Air Force. Coastal Command Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944 216 Squadron 77 Squadron aircrew bombing crewing up Halifax Halifax Mk 1 Halifax Mk 2 pilot RAF Elvington RAF Full Sutton Resistance Special Operations Executive training https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1157/11716/AThomsonGB171103.mp3 a0197b913e467d676a48c2f6a70f7465 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thomson, George George Buchanan Thomson G B Thomson Description An account of the resource 629 items. Collection concerns Warrant Officer George Thomson (b. 1924, 1572977 Royal Air Force), he flew operations as a navigator with 15 Squadron and was shot down in September 1944. Contains two oral history interviews, his wartime log, several memoirs giving accounts of being shot down and his time as prisoner of war, family and official correspondence, documents and photographs. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by George Thomson and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Thomson, GB Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AM: Right. So that’s live. Ok. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Alastair Montgomery. The interviewee is Warrant Officer George Thomson, and the interview is taking place in George’s home in Newton Mearns near Glasgow. And this is the second part of an interview. The previous one concerned George’s life in the air and this is going to discuss his period from being shot down, captured and hopefully some of the period of the Long March. George, if you’d like to tell us about how you came to leave the aircraft and what happened when you reached the ground. GT: Right. Well, 12th of September ’44 the target was Frankfurt. Three hundred and ninety eight Lancasters were scheduled to bomb Frankfurt that night. It was because of troops moving through the central station in Frankfurt. That was the target in any event. But we, part of 3 Group actually were doing a diversionary towards Mannheim first of all before turning up to Frankfurt. Others were going direct to Frankfurt. And we flew, flew at low level across France. We actually flew at about a hundred feet across France. My pilot loved flying low and we didn’t start climbing until we got to the German border. And we climbed up and we actually got to the bombing height of sixteen thousand feet and just to the north of Mannheim when we were attacked by two aircraft. There was one came in from the rear and there was a ME110 underneath us with the upward firing guns. And it fired and we didn’t know it was there of course but it obviously it hit our bomb bay and set some of the incendiaries alight. And although the wireless operator was trying to put it out with the fire extinguishers eventually the flames were spreading to the wing and the pilot just ordered us to bale out at that stage. So we baled out probably about local time over there it was about a quarter to twelve. It was a quarter to eleven here our time but I think it was about a quarter to twelve over there. And we’d taken some evasive action so probably we baled out at about twelve thousand feet. And the flight engineer went first. I went second. And the bomb aimer came out after me. And then the wireless operator. And the two gunners went out through the rear door. The pilot never got out at all. Anyway, we got out and we landed. Coming down you just don’t know when you’re going to hit the ground and I did eventually land in this field of maize. It was probably about four feet high. It was a very tall crop of maize which helped to break my fall. When I stood up and looked around I spotted a parachute up a tree in the corner of the field. It wasn’t at the top of the tree. It was lower down but caught up on one of the branches and I wandered over to see who this was. And it was the flight engineer who’d baled out ahead of me. And the two of us decided that we should get out there as fast as we could. We buried our parachutes and Mae Wests and we headed off then. We had a decision to make whether we’d head for Switzerland or head for Alsace Lorraine and we decided to go to Alsace Lorraine direction in the hope that we might pick up with British or American troops that were moving up in that direction in any event. So off we went and we walked that night ‘til we got to probably about 4 o’clock in the morning. We got to a river and there was no chance of us getting across that river. It was beginning to get a bit light anyway. The river was fairly fast flowing. Fairly wide. On the other side there were woods and ideally if we could have got into the woods it would have been better. But we couldn’t get in to the woods. And further down, about a hundred and fifty yards downstream there was a bridge with traffic occasionally going back and forward over it. So we decided we would stay where we were on the bank of this river. And it was actually on the edge of a farm. The farm buildings were probably about a hundred and fifty yards away and there was a slope from the farm fields down to the river and we just decided to stay in this slope in amongst the reeds and we stayed there pretty well all day. Pretty monotonous as you can imagine. And we periodically had a look over the top to see if there was any activity in the farm but there was none at all. We didn’t see anybody moving around and didn’t hear anything happening at all. So we waited there until it got dark enough that we could move down toward the bridge and we took a chance to get across the bridge. Traffic had pretty well subsided by that time. Most of it was military traffic. And we got across the bridge into the woods on the left hand side of the road and the rain came on and it pelted down. And we decided to get in to the woods and shelter there rather than walk on and get soaked. So we went into the woods and got shelter. In fact we found an old tin bath that we thought we’d put over our heads and that would keep us dry. But the noise of the rain [laughs] falling on the tin bath was more than we could bear. So we discarded the tin bath and just got wet. Not as wet as we’d have got if we’d carried on walking. We probably stayed there until about 3 o’clock in the morning and then started to walk on from there. Keeping to the woods but following this road that seemed to be running in the right direction. And periodically there was the odd bit of traffic on it but maybe one or two vehicles in an hour. That was all. During, and all military equipment that was being shipped around at that time. So we carried on walking until we got to the stage where we were, we hadn’t really slept at all so we decided that we’d doss down and have a, we’d taken a decision to walk at night and hide by day. So we, we carried on walking until we felt sufficiently weary that we’d bed down somewhere in the wood and we did. And we spent the day, most of the day there. And then carried on walking when it got dark again. Continued to follow this road which was going in the right direction and had another night in, in the wood. Walking through it and then the following day we rested up again. And we had one escape kit between us. Barry, the flight engineer had left his in the aircraft which wasn’t very smart because your escape kit actually fitted into the pocket of your battle dress. So we had one between us and we, we shared that out as best we could. But on that third day going down we eventually got to a point where there was a, the wood was beginning to thin out a bit and we could see this barn. It appeared to be deserted but it was sitting well off the road. We couldn’t see the farm at all. The barn it belonged to. But we watched the farm, the barn for quite a while. And then when we decided that it was vacant, there was nobody in it we went into this barn to shelter for that day and there was a ladder up to the loft. And we went up into the loft and there was some baggage stored up there. Farm baggage of various kinds and we, we got behind it and the two of us just bedded down for the day there. We took turns at sleeping. One of us kept awake and the other would go to sleep and then we’d turn over. And in the procedure when I was awake one time I was ferreting through some of the rubbish that was up there and I came across a pile of old newspapers. Pre-war newspapers. I couldn’t read them because they were in the old style German and even in the new style German I still couldn’t have read them. But in amongst the papers I came across a page with an advert for a petrol station and it had a map of the area. So I took the map out and that was it. Barry, before then Barry had actually said the first day when we were down by the river sheltering Barry had said, he was a pipe smoker and he had a tobacco pouch. And he said there was a map inside the tobacco pouch. So he opened up the tobacco pouch and took out the map and it was a map of the south of France [laughs] which wasn’t very much use to us at that time. But I found this. This map gave us our area. The roads in the area and it was pretty much as, as they were today. Or at least on that day when we were searching for them. So we stayed there until it got dark again and then we continued walking and again keeping to this road and following it going in the right direction. And eventually we got to the stage where we were really fearing that this walking through the wood was a slow process. So there was very little traffic on the road and we decided that we could probably walk on the road because it was a long straight road. It wasn’t quite an autobahn. It was just a long straight road and you could see traffic coming or going. And if any traffic was coming we just dived in to the side, into the woods and stayed there until the traffic passed. And that was it. We, we carried on in that way. We, it was probably, it was nearly a downturn because we walked on and we ran out of wood. And we had to walk on the road without any shelter from woods that we could go into. And there was a, of course the two of us in one area we passed a big farm field. And there were two labourers working in the field away at the other side. And they saw us and we saw them so we just waved to them and they waved back. I think the fact that there were two of us was a, was a safeguard in a way. And we carried on walking and lost sight of them. And we, we came to a slight bend in the road and we turned down this bend in the road and consternation. There was a village straight ahead of us. Houses on either side of the road. Not a very big village. Maybe about thirty houses. And there were women standing in the street and kids running about and they’d spotted us. And we thought oh what do we do? If we turn and walk back a way it might give some cause for alarm so we carried on walking and we just walked past the ladies. Nodded to them as we walked past. We were still of course still in our uniforms and I suppose the fact that our uniforms were not too dissimilar from the Luftwaffe uniforms maybe they just thought we were Air Force personnel. Luftwaffe personnel. But we just carried on walking straight through them and we got to the other end and then decided that we’d better sort of maybe try and find a bit more shelter. We had a [pause] another night we came across woods again and we walked into the woods and we had another night of shelter there. We changed our plans and decided we’d walk during the day and shelter at night. And we carried on walking the next day. And keeping to the side of the road but just walking down there were thin woods on the right hand side. And we came across a workman’s hut at the side of the road and we decided that, we watched it for a bit. There was no sign of any activity around about it so we went into this workman’s hit and decided to have a bit of a doss. You know lay down and get a bit of a rest. There was a knot in the wood panelling that faced the road. And you could watch what was happening through this knot in the wood. And consternation. An Army truck drew up alongside us. I thought this is it. This guy is coming into the hut. He got out and a woman got out the other side. And the two of them walked towards the hut but never came into it. They walked in to the woods. And about fifteen minutes later they walked back out and got into the truck and drove off. And if they were satisfied so we were we [laughs] because they hadn’t bothered with us at all. And that was how we managed to sort of evade any contact with civilians at that point in time. We carried on walking and by this time we were getting a bit peckish at this point. And we just found that down the roads that there were, the road sides they were lined with apple trees at this stretch. And of course we could get the apples off the trees and that was fine. That was, that helped to augment our poor rations that we had with us. And we got down a bit further on and we came across another workman’s hut set well back off the road. And it was getting towards evening by this time. And we had a look at it and nobody was around it. So we went into it and stayed the night in it and that was, that was fine. We’d also these apples to eat to augment our poor rations that we had. And the next day we carried on walking again and this time we came across another workman’s hut set back from the road. And this was an even better workman’s hut because it had a stove in it and a chimney out the top. And we’d actually passed a field on the way down towards this before we saw this hut with potatoes growing in it. So we dug up some of the potatoes and filled our pockets with the potatoes and took them with us hoping that we might be able to find some way of being able to use them. And of course when I came across this workman’s hut it was set back about thirty yards off the actual road. Up a very small path. It was fine. So Barry went off to gather some firewood to get the stove going and I went off in search of water. One of the things we had in our escape kit was a plastic water bottle with water purifying tablets. I found the river and filled up the bag and went back to the hut. And we got the stove going, roasted the potatoes, threw in some apples. So we had a two course meal. And before going to sleep I went outside to relieve myself. And to my horror there was flames shooting out the chimney about two or three feet in the air. So I went back in put the fire out and we stayed that night in the hut. That was ok. Nobody came anywhere near us. And then the next day we carried on walking. And this was about [coughs] excuse me about our seventh day walking and we got into an area where there was more suburbs. You could see these buildings down the side of the road but we kept clear of them until we got down to a point where we reached the road we were on actually ran in, right into this town. And we decided what we’d do and we thought well we’d better just take the chance and walk through the town. And we walked through, started walking through the town and we heard footsteps behind us and dived into a garden and hid behind a hedge while this person walked past and then we resumed our walk through the town. And we came across a marshalling yard, a railway marshalling yard and decided to go in and explore it. We knew we were getting down towards the Rhine and the, we thought there might be a possibility of getting down, finding a train or something that would take us across the Rhine. We had no idea about the size of the Rhine at that stage. I’ve seen it subsequently and I know we probably wouldn’t have got across it at all. Anyway, this town was called Rastatt. And we, we were in the marshalling yard. We actually got stopped by a uniformed person. He might have been a policeman. We couldn’t tell from his uniform but he nattered away to us and we just stood and shrugged our shoulders. And he lost interest and wandered off. I think he maybe thought we were foreign workers because there was a lot of foreign workers in Germany at that time. Anyway, he wandered off. We just beat it out of this place and decided to get as far away from Rastatt as we could but heading continuing to head towards the Rhine and Rastatt is actually situated right on the Rhine. The north bank of the Rhine. And I’ve been back at Rastatt twice on my travels post-war and it’s a beautiful town and we didn’t appreciate that at the time we were there. And we walked on that, this was the morning of our eighth day we walked on into the wood on the right hand side of the road and kept walking following the road for a bit. And then about 3 o’clock decided we’d better bed down. We weren’t going to get anywhere near the Rhine when it was beginning to get daylight. So we found a sheltered spot in the wood and bedded down and went to sleep there. And I was awakened somewhere about 7 o’clock with Barry shaking me in the shoulders and saying, ‘Look who’s coming.’ I looked up and there was four German soldiers bearing down on us with fixed bayonets. And there was a man standing, an elderly man standing in a corner. Quite a bit away. We decided he’d come in to, he was holding a bundle of wood in his arms. He’d come into the wood to gather wood. Into the wood to gather firewood and he’d spotted us and then gone to report us to this German Army camp which was two hundred yards away. We’d actually, we hadn’t seen it in the dark and it was actually an armoured regiment there but they were Austrians. Anyway the four soldiers took us back up to the camp and we were left there for quite a bit until the two officers eventually appeared. And they seemed slightly amused at the fact that we’d been caught you see. They, they could, well they didn’t speak any English. And eventually after about half an hour decided that they’d better get rid of us. So they loaded us onto a truck with two guards and they drove us into Rastatt and we went into the local county jail. What had probably been this county jail. It was still, this was under the control of the Austrian regiment that was running the camp as well and we got stuck in individual cells. I’d been in the cell about an hour when the door opened and in came this German officer. Well, he was, again he was an Austrian. But I didn’t know that at the time. But he came in with an NCO and the NCO said, ‘English?’ And I said, ‘No.’ ‘Ah, American.’ And I said, ‘No.’ And that was him. That was all the NCO knew was English and American. So he turned and spoke to the officer and then the officer turned and spoke to me in almost faultless English and said, ‘If you’re not English and you’re not American what are you?’ I said, ‘I’m Scottish.’ So he turned and explained to the NCO and the two of them had a wee bit of a conversation. The NCO then left the cell and he came back about five minutes later with a tray with a dish of meat and potatoes, a mug of coffee and a slab of bread. And the interesting thing was that during that period when the NCO was out of the cell the officer never asked me any questions about where I had come from, where I’d been shot down what was the rest of it. He was more interested in telling me he’d been educated at Oxford. He’d been educated at Oxford University. Went back to Germany in 1937. And, and that was it. And then they left me and they went up to Barry’s cell which was two up from where I was. And opened the door and the NCO said, ‘English?’ And Barry said, ‘Yes.’ And they just shut the door and left him. He got fed at lunchtime. I got fed again at lunchtime. But I was grateful for this substantial meal that I got in the morning. So we were there three days and the three days were just I suppose they were trying to organise what they would do with us. The second day I was there I was in the toilets and this English officer came in [pause] wearing, he was a flight lieutenant in uniform. But in his best blue. He didn’t have battle dress on. And I thought that’s suspicious and he said to me, ‘What squadron were you in?’ I said, ‘Mind your own bloody business,’ and walked out and left him. The interesting thing is that when we left there on the third day that officer didn’t come with us. There was just the two of us. So he was obviously a German. Where he’d got the uniform from I don’t know and how they’d managed to get a full dress uniform. Anyway, he didn’t appear and we got taken out and put into a covered in truck. And there was two bench seats, one on either side of the truck and we had two guards with us and we were taken about twenty miles up the road to another village. But the funny thing was, and I was telling a group I was speaking to last night that there were three or four civilians sitting across from us and there was a girl of about eighteen or nineteen. She had a bag at her feet. And she kept looking across at us and smiling. And then she spoke to the guards and I didn’t know what was going on but the guards obviously gave their assent. And she went in to the bag and pulled out two apples and gave us an apple each. Which I found rather strange that a German civilian was feeding prisoners of war. So we go up to this other little village and it was a place that had very very rustic and the prison was something that you’d see out of a western movie. They opened the door in the main street and there was two steps down and that was you in the cell and they shut the door. So the two of us were put in there and discovered that there were three others in there. There were two other Bomber Command aircrew and an American fighter pilot. And the next day the five of us got moved because we were heading to Dulag Luft at Frankfurt, and we actually got a train that took us up to Frankfurt. And then we got a tram car from the central station in Frankfurt which was a bit knocked about out to Dulag Luft which was on the south side of Frankfurt. And we were there. By this time Arnhem had taken place. And of course the place was loaded with airborne prisoners. And we were again, we were there three days and I was interrogated only once. I was taken into a room about this size with a big desk and an officer sitting behind it and behind him was a map of England with all the, all the bomber stations mapped on it. Including Mildenhall where I’d come from. And he asked me questions and I said, ‘Well, I can only tell you my number, rank and name and that’s all.’ ‘What squadron were you on?’ I said, ‘I can’t tell you that.’ ‘Well, you can, you know,’ he said, ‘Because the Army have regimental numbers and you have squadron numbers. So you can tell me your squadron number.’ I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘Squadron number’s totally different from a regimental number,’ and I said, ‘I can’t tell you.’ So he didn’t press the point. He offered me a cigarette which I refused. I was desperate for one at that time but I refused it and I was taken back to my cell. And the next day we were moved into a large assembly room where they were gathering together prisoners that were going to be moved to a prison camp. And I met up with my bomb aimer and my wireless operator. They were both there and they’d been there all the time that we’d been on the loose. And they were told of course that we were dead because they couldn’t find us. That was, the presumption was we were dead. And the one that was missing was our rear gunner who was Isador Spagatner. He was an Austrian Jew. He’d actually been born in this country but his parents were Austrians who had left Austria and come over here to get out of this Hitler regime. And Spag had been born over here. But he was the most Jewish person I’ve ever seen in my life. And he always carried a revolver in his flying boot in case he got shot down because he reckoned he could take four or five and then keep one for himself. When he baled out his revolver fell out of his flying boot and he landed in Mannheim station without his revolver. And he was halfway up a pole with a rope around his neck when he was rescued by the railway police. And they immediately handed him over to the Luftwaffe. Being in Frankfurt I suppose it was easy. Being in Mannheim that was it was easy for them to do that. There was plenty of Luftwaffe people about. And he got whipped in, he went, he went up to Dulag Luft but he was only there for a couple of days and then he got whipped straight into in a prison camp and we met him eventually when we got to the prison camp. But we left there. We went, we went into, on to a train which was a corridor train and there was sixty each compartment and the guards at either end of the corridor. And we were each given a Red Cross parcel. Which of course had ample food in it but what we wanted. We were desperate for food at that time. We’d had food in Dulag Luft. In fact Dulag Luft had a bad reputation because the people that were serving us in it were Air Force. Ex-Air Force. Well they were still Air Force. Air Force personnel who’d either volunteered to stay on and serve the Germans and quite a number of them actually got prosecuted when they came back to this country. Anyway, we were going — AM: Royal Air Force personnel? GT: They were Royal Air Force personnel. Yeah. AM: Oh I see. GT: Aye. AM: Right. GT: Some of them got quite long prison sentences when they came back because they reckoned they were working for the Germans. AM: Right. GT: Anyway, we were five days in this train. Well, we travelled across Germany to get to Stalag Luft 7 which was near Bankau in Silesia. On the borders of Poland and Czechoslovakia. We were the furthest. One of two that were the furthest east camps in Germany. And we got there eventually. Got off the train at a place called Bankau which was about less than a mile, three quarters of a mile from the prison camp. Walked up the road to the prison camp. The prisoners who were already there knew that we were coming because they could see the train coming in. And one of the first person we saw was the rear gunner. He’d got there before us. The German procedure of course was that you, they took your identity disc off and you got a German identity disc. And you were given a number which related to the camp you were in. So my German identity disc had Stalag Luft 7 at the top and number eight hundred and seventy. I was eight hundred and seventieth in to the camp. The camp had only been opened up in June ’44 and it was still in a temporary stage of construction. The compound we were in was occupied by a series of wooden huts. Garden huts. Like big garden sheds. And six or seven men to a shed. And of course we got split up and put into one in here, one in there. We were in these sheds while in the next compound they were still building the new proper camp. Well, we’d been there two or three days and there were about seven or eight Army personnel there who’d been caught at the, mostly glider pilots who’d come down and been picked up and brought up there. And the Germans realised that they were Army personnel and they really should be put, they were mostly corporals and they should really be doing some work. So they arranged that they would have to go into this new compound and help put up the huts that were being erected in the, to develop the camp. So the seven or eight of them went in that day and we sort of, well we didn’t spend all day watching them. I didn’t certainly do that but quite a number were just down at the fence watching what was going on and they were getting the odd tool thrown across to them. Anyway, about 4 o’clock in the afternoon the seven came back in and came back into the camp. And then the next day they went out again but it wasn’t the same seven. It was seven of the Bomber Command personnel wearing the Army uniforms. And of course the German guards had changed and they didn’t know who they were. So they went into the camp and started working on the huts that, there was this hut that was nearest to the wire and they started working on it and actually what they were doing was dismantling most of the work that the Army boys had done the day before. And when they came out they came back in to the main compound. They slammed the door and the roof fell in. And that put an end to working. There was nobody else worked on these camps. Camp buildings. And the seven or eight Army personnel were moved away immediately. Almost immediately. And they would go to an Army camp and probably be working because the Army boys were, were made to work. AM: Yeah. GT: I don’t know what happened to any of the Army sergeants and above but any, all aircrew didn’t work. You didn’t. There was no work to be done at all because it was mayhem if aircrew got into it at all. As witnessed by what happened to the roof of this building. So eventually we got moved in the beginning of October. We got moved in to the new compound. Now, the new compound consisted of eight barrack blocks. And each barrack block consisted of fourteen rooms, a centre corridor and seven rooms on either side. And each room accommodated twelve prisoners in double bunks. And it was fresh. It was clean. It was. It was, there was a stove in the room and there was also two latrine blocks. One on either side in between the barrack blocks. There was a cook house and storage room. And there was another room which was a recreational room and we called it a little theatre because there was a stage in it. And it was used quite a bit. So we were in there and the sixteen foot high barbed wire fence that was around us, double fence and inside that there was about four, four or five feet inside that there was a trip wire which was about that height off the ground and you didn’t cross that wire. You crossed it at your peril. If you crossed it you got every chance of being shot by one of the guards in the guard towers that were surrounding the camp. In fact, one chap who obviously had gone a bit [pause] lost the place here. He actually went across the wire and tried to climb the fence to get out of the camp and he was shot by one of the guards. And there was a second one shot. A Canadian sergeant who was in the block next to ours. We were in block number one and there was an air raid had gone. And you weren’t allowed out if an air raid was on. You just stayed in your [pause] The all clear went and he left his billet to go to the cookhouse to collect the rations for their lunch and he was shot by one of the guards in the tower. The problem was the air raid all clear had not gone in the camp. It had gone down in Bankau. In the village three quarters of a mile away and it had been heard there and he thought it was the camp all clear. And that’s why he went out and he was killed as well. That guard disappeared from the camp. He was never seen again. He probably ended up on the Russian front. I don’t know what happened to him but he was away. And that, that was, that was basically it. And then of course we we occupied our time in the usual ways. We had the compound where we, in the centre was was laid out like a football pitch. It could be used as a football pitch. I played rugby on it. I’d played rugby at school. And I played rugby in the RAF on the squadron when I was on it. Now, the bomb aimer he was a Welshman. He was a very keen rugby player and we played quite a few games there. And there was football as well. And of course you walked the compound around to get exercise. And there was a library stocked by the International Red Cross. And there was two or three of the lads from one of the other billets had actually made a Monopoly set by hand. They’d hand-made this monopoly set which, and you could borrow it. A room would get it for a night and it would go around. Played a lot of Bridge. The Bridge situation. The last time I played bridge in my life was actually in the prison camp. But it was, it was, well, well organised and well run. And — AM: What were the theatre shows? GT: Well, there was there was two, two orchestras in the camp. AM: Right. GT: There was a semi-classical orchestra. Violins mainly. And there was a piano accordion orchestra which was run by a Canadian sergeant who had organised that he was a very very good piano accordion and he had about, there was about six accordions in the — AM: Where did they get they get the instruments from? GT: Well, the International Red Cross. AM: Right. GT: Supplied them and the, we had concerts. And the first concert was opened up in the beginning of November and we had a concert at least once a week. We also had film shows. We had two film shows. One, the Germans actually operated the cinema equipment and the first one we went to they ran, there were three reels and they ran one, three and two. So it was a bit jumbled up. You didn’t know. You saw the end before you saw the middle part. And then at, at Christmas, just before Christmas they had a big do with both orchestras playing and it was, it ran for two nights. We were, I was there the second night and apparently the first night, at the end of the concert the POWs had stood up and sang the national anthem. The night I was there the commandant who was a guest, the German commandant was a guest, he stood up and said, ‘You will not sing your national anthem.’ And the senior British officer who was a chap, Peter Thomson, an Australian he stood up and said, ‘Land of Hope and Glory boys.’ And we sang it three times. Much to the consternation of the Germans who couldn’t get out of the place. And they opened, they opened the windows and they said it was actually heard down in Bankau three quarters of a mile away. Because the whole, the whole camp took it up at that time and by this time there was fifteen hundred in the camp. And if you can imagine fifteen hundred voices singing Land of Hope and Glory. So that was it. And then we, there was a [pause] my rear gunner was not in a, we were in block number one and my rear gunner was in block number seven. And it was, he was, the room he was in was mainly Canadians and they applied to the International Red Cross for skates. And they got six pairs of skates but they couldn’t use them. So they applied to the German authority for permission to build an ice rink. And it was duly granted and they started building this ice rink between two of their, two of their accommodation blocks. And they were piling up the sand to create a sort of a well that they could flood. And of course it was so blooming cold at that time it froze over without any bother. What the Germans didn’t realise was that the sand that was being built up also contained sand that was coming out a tunnel that was being dug from one of the barrack blocks. About two weeks after they started on it the actual, the Germans found the tunnel and the thing got scrapped. But we were probably the only camp in Germany I would think, the only POW camp in Germany that actually had an ice rink. And the tunnel would never have been used because by this time through the International Red Cross the message had come out that there was to be no more escapes after the Great Escape took place. And they didn’t want any more situations of that nature. So there were no escapes at all. There was two or three guys did try to escape. One tried to escape under a pile of laundry that went out. And he was found just before he got out of the camp. And another chap tried to get out underneath a truck. And he was found and he was brought back in. There was a block of cells. Six prison cells. You got four days solitary if you were caught doing anything that you shouldn’t have been doing. Anyway, that was it up until the time when it got to January ‘45 and of course the Russians were pushing in from the east. They were coming. Moving towards the west. AM: Do you want a wee break? GT: Aye. AM: Aye. [recording paused] AM: George, just before we finish the bit about the camp and move on to the Long March was there any way that prisoners could hear what was going on in the outside world or in the war? GT: Yeah. I omitted to mention that at Stalag Luft 7 there were about three hundred and eighty odd prisoners moved in from other camps. AM: Right. GT: While Stalag Luft 7 was being built they were in temporary camps. Mostly in Army camps. And then they got moved in and a group of them who were moved in actually brought with them their own radio. But one of the, one or two of the wireless operators had managed to build a radio. And the Germans knew that they had this radio but they never could find it. Now, they were moved from an Army camp into Stalag Luft 7 and they obviously were searched when they came into the camp. Never found the radio. When we got moved from the temporary compound in to the main compound again we were all searched before we went in. Our baggage was searched, we were searched and yet within two days of getting in that radio was up and working. And they listened in the BBC two or three times a week. They took the message down in shorthand and then had it typed up and there was a group of POWs who went around the blocks and read this out to the residents in each block and then destroyed the paper. And, and that was it. So we, we got news about three or four times a week from the BBC and we probably knew more about what was going on the war than the Germans actually did. AM: Really. Amazing. GT: Yeah. And they still never found that radio. The other thing I should have mentioned was that the Gestapo visited the camp about once a month and the German officers in charge of the camp were always concerned about this. And they used to give us about two days notice of when the Gestapo were coming so that anything that we didn’t want to be found could be hidden away in time. And particularly this radio for example. And the Gestapo would come in, spend the day in the camp. Go through the camp. Search the rooms. They still never found that radio. And as I say the Germans were good enough always to alert us to the fact that the Gestapo were coming because they feared them more than, probably more than we did. If they’d found anything that was illegal they would have been for the chop as well. They’d have been demoted or whatever or sent to the Russian front or wherever they sent these boys to. So that was it. AM: So, perhaps you could tell us a little about the end of the time in the camp and then move on to the, what’s become known since as the Long March. GT: Yeah. Well, the, the Long March was by January ’45 it was known that the Russians were pushing on. Moving further west and the Germans had made up their mind that they were going to evacuate the camps and move all the prisoners to the west as well. I never found the rationale behind that because to some extent they could have left us and let the Russians get hold of us. Anyway, by about the middle of January we were alerted to the fact that we might have to move soon. And in fact on the 17th of January we were given one hour’s notice to move. It happened, it didn’t take place. It didn’t take place until the 19th. That was two days we had spare. Some of the boys made sledges out of old bed boards so that they could tow their gear with them. I didn’t want to be bothered with that. The chap I shared the accommodation with in the bunks he didn’t want to be bother with that either. I’d got some spare material. A canvassy type of material. I made a rucksack which I could just put on my back and carry whatever I wanted in it and that was fine. But we eventually moved off from the camp on the 19th of January at 3 o’clock in the morning. And the, it was blowing a blizzard. It was snowing like nothing I’d ever seen before because that part of the country is well for snowdrifts. And we left, as I say about 3 o’clock in the morning and we did sixteen miles before we stopped. We had a couple of breaks on the way for about ten minutes. Fifteen minutes. And then we carried on walking. It was difficult to see where you were going and of course there were guards on either side of us in any event. There was fifteen hundred of us on the road, stringing along. And we had, we’d saved some of our Red Cross parcel material which was pretty sparse anyway. We didn’t get Red Cross parcels every week now. We’d saved some of the material from the Red Cross parcels that we could take with us which is just as well because over the three weeks we were on the road marching we got very little food given us. So we moved on. We did the sixteen miles and it was the middle of the next afternoon before we stopped. And we stopped at a school room, a deserted school room and we slept on the floorboards in the school. There was no furniture in the school room but obviously it had been abandoned and we slept there. And we got some small rations in the morning. And then we moved on again from there and we did another fourteen miles. I think the idea was to get us across the River Oder so that they could blow the bridges and stop the Russians from getting across. It didn’t stop the Russians anyway. But the third day we actually got across the Oder and we then spent that other night in a farm. Barns. A working farm but we were in the barns. I buddied up with a chap that — a fellow, Geoff Lee. A New Zealand pilot who was in Coastal Command. And the interesting thing was that I’d actually seen him being shot down a fortnight before we were shot down on the newsreel in the station cinema. It was, they showed in the newsreel a piece that was a Coastal Command attack on on German shipping going up the German coastline. And he was, he was flying a Bristol Beaufort and he and his navigator made this attack and they got, they got struck and he more or less went straight in. And Bristol Beauforts were not known for their floatability. But it stayed afloat long enough for him to get out. And the navigator sat behind him in a separate compartment and his only way out was through a hatch in the bottom. And Geoff, having got out then went down to see if he could find where the navigator had gone, and never saw. Never found. The door was open but the navigator had gone. Never saw him again. And of course he got picked up by the Germans within, they were only about a half a mile off the shore. And when I arrived in Stalag Luft 7 at the temporary camp he was the fellow I was sleeping next to. Geoff Lee. And we just kept together after that. But I went out to New Zealand and spent some time with Geoff and his wife after the war with my wife. So we didn’t do too bad. Anyway we had these, these days of walking and days of resting. We’d only one two day pause when we actually stopped and didn’t move on for two days. And we got some very sparse rations. The [pause] Geoff had been a farmer. He, he didn’t have a farm of his own but he worked on a farm in New Zealand and one of the nights that we spent in this farm building he said to me, ‘Let’s go and sleep with the cattle.’ So we went into the section where the cattle was and bedded down with them because it was warm. And it was fine. And he also went scouting around and he got some molasses which was of course fed to the cattle. And we just ate some of the molasses as well. Gave us something to put in to our stomachs. And then we moved on from there and we were three weeks on the road. They kept promising us that we’d get transport but we never really got it. The third day we were out in the camp there were about sixty of the POWs were so desperately ill that they had to, they put them into what had been a civilian hospital and left them there. And they would actually have been overrun by the Russians in time. And the rest of us just beavered on. They had one horse and a cart that could pick up folk that couldn’t walk any further but mostly carried on. I think probably at the end of the day we lost about eighty out of the fifteen hundred who were left behind. I think one or two of them actually died. I’ve no record of that but I read an article at one time that said that forty or fifty had died but I had no knowledge of that at all. I never heard any message to that effect. Anyway, we eventually got on to a place called Goldberg and we were there for a couple of nights. And then they organised a train from there. And of course it was a cattle train. Cattle waggons. Fifty five men to a cattle wagon. And we got on to this train and we were taken from there going further west over three days. We stopped at night and they would let us out at night for a spell. Then back into the trucks and lock us up again. But we eventually got to a place about thirty miles southeast of Berlin. And that was a village called Luckenwalde and there was a prison camp there and we were stuck in it. Now compared with the one we left at Stalag Luft 7 which was to some extents palatial Luckenwalde was the pits. It was an ex-Army camp occupied by the French and the French by the time we got there there was about three thousand British and American POWs who’d been evacuated from their camps and had walked west. We got there and we were in huts that occupied just about three hundred to a hut in three tier beds in blocks of nine. And it was the filthiest place I’ve ever been in. Within twenty four hours we were all covered in body lice. Every one of us. And we never got rid of them until we got back to this country. We’d been there about, probably about three weeks when half way through the third week when our block with three hundred in it were told we were being moved again. And we were taken down to the station and loaded on to cattle trucks once more. And we stayed there for three days. They couldn’t move us because [pause] we didn’t know what was happening. We had no idea what was going on. And most of the guards that were there were German Dad’s Army guards. And there was wire fencing around the part where the cattle trucks were and occasionally the villagers would come down and stare at us, you know. Look through the fence. See what we were like. Were we human? Whether we had two heads. And some of the prisoners would do a deal when the civilians that come down. And you got two tins of coffee in your Red Cross parcels and they were, they each contained two ounces of concentrated coffee. You used to be able to get them in this country. AM: Camp coffee. GT: That’s right. It was, it was crystallised coffee. AM: Right. GT: Anyway, they used to trade these for eggs. A tin of coffee would get you half a dozen eggs and that was fine. The only problem was that the civilians when they got back opened up their coffee it wasn’t coffee that was in it at all. It was sand. And they couldn’t come back and complain. AM: No. GT: There was also one guy. An Australian pilot. We were allowed out of the vans most of the day and he, he got chatting with one of the guards who was a sort of German Dad’s Army type and asked to see his rifle. And the guy handed it over. And the Australian fella had a look at the rifle. Aye, it’s fine. Handed it back to him. He kept the bolt. The bolt was, the rifle was useless without the bolt but the guard didn’t know he had no bolt in his rifle when he got It back. Anyway, we were there for three days and got moved back to the camp. And there’s a book which I’ve got a copy of, it’s called, ‘Footprints on the Sand of Time.’ And it gives you a bit about each camp in it and also lists all Bomber Command prisoners of war from day one right through to the end. And it tells you in this article that this group that were being moved from Luckenwalde were intended to go to be taken to Berlin to be held as hostages. They couldn’t get us there because the Americans had bombed the railway line and there was no way they could get us there so we got back up to the camp. But the camp was a pretty filthy place as I say. When we got there originally we were desperate for food and the, we discovered that the French prisoners that were in the camp had quite a stack of Red Cross parcels and they wouldn’t hand any of them over. And a senior British officer had words with the German command and eventually the Germans went in and took the parcels and handed them over to us and left the French short of parcels. So we got some food. I’ve got a note here of what we actually got to eat on the way. The rations that we were given on the three week march consisted of, from the Germans three loaves of bread, four packets of crack bake. Crack bake was something similar to Ryvita. AM: Yeah. Yeah. GT: A packet of small biscuits, four plates of porridge and a cup of barley. And that was all we got in the three weeks apart from what we could scrounge ourselves. So we were there until, again the Russians were continuing to move to the west. And it was known that the Russians would eventually reach Luckenwalde as well. And they did reach us. Around about April ’45 they came into the camp. We woke up one morning and the guards had gone. We were left on our own and that same morning the Russians came into the camp. And the next day they brought in two vans loaded with rifles to hand out to us. And we told them to go and get lost. We weren’t going to start fighting with the Russians. Alongside the Russians. And that same day an American press photographer in a jeep with a driver had got lost and they found the camp. And they decided that they would hightail it back to the American lines. The Elbe, just southeast of Berlin. Apparently the arrangement was that the Americans would move up to the west bank of the Elbe and the Russians would move up to the east bank and this newspaper reporter hightailed it back to the Americans. And the next day the Americans sent a fleet of trucks to take away the sick and the wounded and the Russians opened fire on them. Drove them back. Kept us there for a month. Didn’t supply any rations. They gave the camp two horses and a cart and we had to go and find our own food. There was a group set up that did that around the farmyards and got whatever they could. And apparently the Russians wanted to have an exchange of prisoners. The Russian prisoners were very far and few between and there was three thousand of us British and American. And apparently the Americans of course did not have three thousand prisoners. So my understanding is that they actually crossed the Elbe and took sufficient prisoners to make up three thousand. And then said to the Russians, ‘We can do an exchange. We’ve got three thousand prisoners.’ And after a month in the prison camp with the Russians there some lads tried to get out of the camp and make their own way. But some were successful and some weren’t. After a month we were loaded on to trucks and the Russians drove us up to the Elbe and we walked across one pontoon bridge and the Russian prisoners walked across another pontoon bridge about fifty yards down river. And I don’t think any of these Russian prisoners lasted more than a month. AM: No. GT: They were sent to gulags or shot but they weren’t, the Russians didn’t believe in the International Red Cross. They didn’t supply food to their own prisoners or anything of that sort. AM: No. GT: That was it. So we were taken then. The Americans then took us to a place called [unclear] which was a small, well a reasonable size town but outside the town there was a Luftwaffe fighter base. And we were there for three days having the option of eating white bread for a change. And we were well fed and then after three days they flew us in a fleet of Dakotas down to Brussels. Our aircraft was the last, probably the last one to land because they, they either didn’t have a navigator or the navigator didn’t know where he was going. We landed at the airport and we taxied to the end of the runway and the pilot said — there was only twelve of us in the plane. We were, as I say the last one out. Most of the planes were carrying twenty or twenty four. We got out and we were standing at the end of the runway wondering what to do. We could see at the far end where we should have been. There had been a band there to welcome us in and it had packed up and gone away. And eventually an RAF Regiment sergeant arrived on a bike and said, ‘What are you all doing here? You shouldn’t be here. You should be up at the other end. Get moving and get up there.’ So we told him what to do with his bike and offered to help him do it. And he decided that prudence was the better option and he just disappeared. There was a Lockheed Hudson parked at the end of the runway and the pilot came across to me and he said ‘What are you lot?’ And I said, ‘We’re prisoners of war that are trying to get home.’ He said, ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘What squadron were you on?’ I said, ‘15.’ He said, ‘So was I at one time.’ he said, ‘I was on 15 for a while,’ he said, ‘Get aboard.’ So he loaded the twelve of us in to this Lockheed Hudson and took off. And he called up Brussels Airport and said, ‘I’ve got prisoners of war. Where do I take them to?’ He was told to land immediately and bring them back. The other POWs that were, that had landed in the other Dakotas were kept there. They were about three days in Brussels before they got flown home. So this pilot just switched off and carried on flying over to England and then called up and said, ‘I’ve got prisoners of war aboard. Where do I take them to?’ And he was directed to Westcott in Buckinghamshire which had been our OTU. And we landed there and they were expecting about four or five hundred coming in and of course there were only the twelve of us. And we were taken into this big hangar and it was set out, two big long tables set out for meals. Anyway, they did give us a meal. They deloused us first of all. That was the important thing. And then we went in and had a meal. Then the two doctors came in and checked us out. And one of them said to me, he said, ‘I know you,’ he said, ‘You stay in Giffnock.’ I said, ‘Well, my parents stay in Giffnock and they’re still there.’ He said, ‘I used to see you going to school.’ He said, ‘Who was your doctor?’ I said, ‘Dr Armstrong.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘That was a different practice.’ Armstrong actually operated on his own. He was in Eastwoodmains Road and the old Eastwood School which had just opened off Eastwoodmains Road. And it’s about three miles away from where it is now. His practice was up there and he apparently used to see me. And how he recognised me I don’t know because I hadn’t had a hair cut in about two months. And anyway he said, ‘Well, we’re not going to keep you here. We’re going to give you, take the bus into London and you’ll get a train up to RAF Cosford in Shropshire.’ So we got taken into London. We got ten shillings each and we got taken into London and we had about an hour and a half to wait for our train. So we all disappeared into the bar. And after two and a half pints I was getting a bit puggled. And I obviously wasn’t thinking straight because in the bar there must have been a loo. But I left the bar and went out into the station to look for a loo. And of course I was in my decrepit battle dress. I didn’t wear a regulation shirt. I was wearing a navy blue towelling shirt which I always flew in and I got stopped by two military police. Army military police. ‘Where are you from?’ I said, ‘Well, from Germany. Ex- prisoner of war.’ And by this time two or three civilians had gathered around to hear the conversation and three or four of the lads in the bar had missed me and they came out to look for me. So when the, the Army police saw the others coming out they just disappeared. They thought let’s get out of here. So we got taken back in to the bar by some of the civilians that had gathered around us and bought more drinks. Eventually got on the train up to RAF Cosford. Probably about 8 o’clock at night. We had a, a meal and our uniforms were taken away from us and we were measured for new uniforms. And we had a medical and then went to bed in Nissen huts. And the next morning we got up and had breakfast and collected our new uniforms which were brand new. Correct badges up on them. Correct stripes on them as well. Even to the point where one chap, I can’t remember his surname but it might have been Gibson but anyway his first, his initials were VC. Victor. I don’t know what the C was for. But he was registered as Gibson, VC. And he got his new uniform with a VC on it. Which of course he protested about and had it taken off. And at lunchtime that day I was on my way home. We were only there overnight and sent on my way home and got home later that day. And spent, spent about two or three months in between times going up and down to RAF Cosford for checks. And then eventually I got a message to report to London. To a hotel in London. Went down there. This was around about the end of October, early November and I met up with my flight engineer at this hotel occupied by Army personnel. And I said to this Army guy at the door when I went in, I said, ‘What sort of a place is this?’ He said, ‘It’s for overseas postings.’ I said, ‘You must be joking,’ I said, ‘I’m not going to an overseas posting.’ He said, ‘You’re two floors up.’ So we went up and all they wanted to know from both of us was had we got any assistance when we were on the loose in Germany. The eight days we were. And we said no. ‘Well, that’s fine. Thank you very much. Off you go.’ They didn’t need to bother to call us down to London to find out that information. And then back home. And eventually I got another posting to go down to a refresher course. And went down to this refresher course and met up with my bomb aimer. And we were both in this so-called refresher course. It lasted a month and it was a total waste of time. And at the end of the month John of course he had joined the Air Force in 1937 as a boy apprentice. Trained as an engineer and then volunteered for aircrew. And the flight engineer was the same. He was the same. So the two of them actually stayed on. John still had three years to do of his service. So he stayed on and I was taken in to, the day that John left I was pulled into a remustering room. I saw this flight lieutenant and he said, ‘Well, you realise Thomson that you won’t be flying again.’ And he said, ‘You’ll have to remuster. I’m supposed to remuster you as a clerk general duties.’ I said, ‘Over my dead body I’ll remuster as a clerk,’ I said, ‘I joined the Air Force to fly. Well, you can’t get out because you’ve only been a prisoner for nine and a half months and you’ve got to be a prisoner for twelve months you got an immediate discharge when you came back. Anything less than nine and a half months you still had to do your time. So I refused to accept his remustering and I was pulled into the, the squadron leader the next day who was in charge of the remustering group. And his opening remarks were, ‘You’re making a bit of a nuisance of yourself, Thomson.’ I said, ‘No,’ I said, ‘I’m not.’ I said, ‘The guy I saw yesterday was, he wanted to remuster me as a clerk. I didn’t join the air force to be a clerk.’ So he went through the usual gammit, ‘You’ve only been a prisoner for nine and a half months and you can’t.’ He was looking at my file and he said, ‘Oh I see you stayed in Giffnock.’ I said ‘Yes,’ I said, ‘My parents live in Giffnock and I stay there.’ He said, ‘Do you know a family called Whitelaw?’ I said, ‘Yes. They stay in Braidholm Road. And there’s two girls in the family and one was at school with me.’ He said, ‘Oh. They’re my nieces.’ And he looked at me and he said, ‘What is it that you want?’ I said, ‘Out.’ And he signed my papers and I got out. It took me three weeks to get out mind you but my wireless operator did another six months before he got out and he was driving trucks around England. He was re-mustered as a driver. And Spag, the rear gunner he got out because he’d been medically unwell. He was older. He was actually thirty nine when he was flying with us. So he really shouldn’t have been there at all. And that was, that was it. AM: What did you do after the war? GT: I went back to the bank. I was in the bank before I went into the air force. Went back to the bank. The interesting thing was I think because of the Air Force training I got it was concentrated training. I mean we did, my initial training was at Scarborough. I had twelve weeks in Scarborough. And then I went to Bridgnorth to Elementary Air Navigation School which was a ground school and spent nine weeks there at Elementary Air Navigation. And then went from there to Northern Ireland for flying training. And eventually went back down to, posted from there to Westcott, Bucks for Operational Training Unit where we crewed up. And that was it then. Went from there down to Shrops, to Suffolk and went to various bases we were in. We were on Wellingtons when we were at Westcott and then we went down there and went onto Stirlings. And we spent quite a bit of time on Stirlings and then went converted on to Lancasters before we went to the Squadron. AM: Right. Just — GT: There was a body operating in Wales called Hero’s Return. And I heard about it through the Aircrew Association. And I phoned this Hero’s Return place in Wales and I said, ‘I would like to go and visit my pilot’s grave.’ I knew where it was. It was in a place called Dürnbach. Forty miles south of Munich. And he said, they said, ‘Yeah. Well you can do that. We can finance that for you.’ And I said, ‘My wife would like to go too.’ ‘That’s alright. We can do it for both of you.’ So I phoned my bomb aimer who was in South Wales and I told him and he got in touch with them. And it was arranged that the three of us would go and they paid seventy percent of our costs and we, one of the problems at Dürnbach, outside Munich was that the, it was difficult to get accommodation with a large lake. I think it was called Titisee but I’m not very sure about that. AM: It is Titisee. Yeah. GT: It is Titisee isn’t it. AM: Yeah. GT: And my travel agent in Helensburgh at that time eventually got us accommodation which she got three places and we had to pick one. And we picked the one that we thought was best located. It was halfway up a mountain because it was a ski resort. And Titisee is used by the people from Munich as a weekend resort and it’s not a place for English tourists. So we got there eventually and we had a mix up getting there because the original plan was the travel agent told us how to get there. Fly to Munich Airport. Take the train in from the airport to Munich. It’s about an hour in the train in to Munich and get a train from there down to Titisee. So we, John, but John had, his legs were not very good and he had arranged that he would get transport when he was in the airports. So when we got to Munich there was a chap waiting for him with a wheelchair. AM: Wheelchair. GT: And we were walking along and this this chap said, he was German of course, he said, ‘Where are you going to?’ And we said, ‘We’re going to Munich. We were going to get the train to Munich. He said, ‘You don’t want to get a train to Munich,’ he said, ‘You want to get a bus.’ He said, ‘I’ll take you to the bus. And it’ll take you to Munich quicker than the train will.’ So we got on the bus and I was paying for the three of us and the driver said to me, ‘Where are you going to?’ And I said, ‘Well, we’re going to Munich and then we’re getting a train down to Titisee.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘You don’t want to get the train.’ He said, ‘There’s a bus that’ll come in behind me at Munich. Get on the bus and that’ll take you down there.’ So we did that. And we got down. The only trouble was it went down the wrong side of Titisee and it went right around the whole lake before we got to our destination. Anyway, we got a taxi up to the hotel. We got in to the hotel no bother at all and we were getting the middle of the afternoon. And after we were in our rooms I went down to reception. There was a lad at reception he was probably in his mid-30s and I said to him, ‘What time’s dinner?’ He said, ‘We don’t do dinner.’ They had two dining rooms but they didn’t do dinner. I said, ‘Oh.’ He said, ‘Well, don’t worry,’ he said, ‘I will take you down to the village.’ He said, ‘There’s plenty of pubs in the village. If you went to the pub, have a drink, have a meal, have a drink and get a taxi back up.’ ‘Fine. We’ll do that.’ So we did that and we came back up after 10 o’clock at night when we got back up and he was still in reception. And when John went to his bed I said to my wife, I said, ‘I’m going to go down and have a word with this guy.’ So I went down. I said to him, ‘I should tell you why we’re here. We’re here because I want to visit my pilot’s grave,’ The mid-upper gunner was buried beside him as well, I said, ‘At Dürnbach.’ I said, ‘I know it’s about eight or nine miles from here but,’ I said, ‘How do I go? Do I take a train or do I get a bus or do I take a taxi?’ He said, ‘No. Don’t do any of these things. I will take you.’ So the next day he took a day off and he took us there just after lunch. And he stayed with, he came into the British War Cemetery. He came into the cemetery with us and he stayed with us and then he brought us back up to the hotel. And on the way back up he said, ‘Would you like a meal tonight?’ And John said, ‘I thought you didn’t do meals.’ He said, ‘I can do a cold meal.’ So John said, ‘That’ll be fine. A cold meal would suit me.’ So we all agreed to have a cold meal. So he said, ‘Come down at half past seven. And go into the smaller dining room.’ So we came down at half past seven and went in to the smaller dining room. And there was a big round table set out with plates of various cold meats on it, a bottle of wine, coffee cups and such like. And then this chap came in with a bottle of schnapps and we had a glass of schnapps each before we had our meal. We had the meal and we got a sweet after it and he came back in and gave us another glass of schnapps, and that was it. And he didn’t charge us for the meal. We paid our normal bill for the accommodation and that but that was all. And it couldn’t have been better. So I came back and I told the travel agents when I got back that, ‘Don’t send anybody to Titisee by train. Tell them to go by bus.’ AM: I think, George that’s a remarkable way to finish a remarkable. GT: Yeah. AM: Story. Thank you. GT: My pleasure. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Thomson. Two Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alastair Montgomery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-11-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AThomsonGB171103 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 01:27:12 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource George Thomson was a navigator with 15 Squadron based at RAF Mildenhall. On their 19th operation they came under attack and had to bale out of the aircraft. The pilot and mid-upper gunner both died. When he landed he saw a parachute stuck in a tree at the other end of the field and discovered it belonged to his flight engineer. Together they evaded capture for eight days before they were discovered. He spent the rest of the war as a prisoner of war in Stalag Luft 7 before embarking on the Long March. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain Poland England--Suffolk Germany--Frankfurt am Main Germany--Munich Germany--Oberursel Germany--Rastatt Poland--Tychowo Germany--Titisee Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1944 1945 15 Squadron aircrew bale out bombing Dulag Luft entertainment evading final resting place lynching navigator prisoner of war RAF Mildenhall shot down Stalag 3A Stalag Luft 7 the long march https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1157/11715/AThomsonGB171005.1.mp3 75827ee7f67db05ed78a325999ea0574 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Thomson, George George Buchanan Thomson G B Thomson Description An account of the resource 629 items. Collection concerns Warrant Officer George Thomson (b. 1924, 1572977 Royal Air Force), he flew operations as a navigator with 15 Squadron and was shot down in September 1944. Contains two oral history interviews, his wartime log, several memoirs giving accounts of being shot down and his time as prisoner of war, family and official correspondence, documents and photographs. The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by George Thomson and catalogued by Nigel Huckins. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. Some items have not been published in order to protect the privacy of third parties, to comply with intellectual property regulations, or have been assessed as medium or low priority according to the IBCC Digital Archive collection policy and will therefore be published at a later stage. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/collection-policy. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Thomson, GB Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document GT: Ok. This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Alistair Montgomery. Monty. And the interviewee is Warrant Officer George Thomson. And the interview is taking place at George’s home in Newton Mearns near Glasgow. George, tell me a little bit about your, your family background and where you lived prior to joining the Royal Air Force. AM: I lived in Giffnock. Merrylee Park actually but now called Giffnock. I was there from about the age of seven until I eventually went and joined the Air Force at that stage. GT: Right. And were you any of your family in any of the services? AM: My father was in the First World War. That was, that was the only involvement he was in. But he was, he was out in Mesopotamia GT: Right. So what year did you join the RAF and what made you join? AM: What, what age was I? GT: No. What made you join? Why? AM: I always wanted to fly. GT: Right. Right. So that was it. AM: That was it. And I joined in 1942. GT: Right. Now, tell me a wee bit about, about the training process and — AM: Well, I volunteered in 1942. Around about June. And I didn’t get called up to report to Lord’s Cricket Ground until the beginning of October of that year. And I went down there, had a couple of weeks in London at Lords Cricket Ground. I’d actually failed my medical for my eyesight as a pilot at that time and when I went down to London they sent me to a specialist to see if anything could be done about it. And this specialist said, ‘Well, we can operate on you now but you’ll be, you won’t be flying for six, six weeks or eight weeks. Or you won’t be carrying on in the Air Force for six or eight weeks. Or you can wait until after the war.’ So I chose to wait until after the war. I re-mustered as a trainee navigator. GT: Right. And where did you, where did you start your, the flying element of your training? AM: The flying element was in, was in Bishops Court in Northern Ireland. GT: Right. AM: Just south of Belfast. GT: Right. And how long did that last? AM: We went there in, I was first of all I was at the initial training wing in Scarborough and then went from there to Bishops Court after a spell in Manchester, at Heaton Park. Holding until we could get a vacancy on a course. And then went there. October ’43 that would be. GT: And so that was the basic element. AM: That was when we started flying training. Yeah. GT: Right. AM: On Avro Ansons. GT: Right. And what did you go on to after the Anson? AM: From there we went, went to Operational Training Unit in Wellingtons. GT: Right. AM: And that was in in Buckinghamshire. GT: Right. And is that where you, where you crewed up? AM: That was where we crewed up. Yeah. GT: Tell me a wee bit about this famous crewing up process. AM: Well, I didn’t then know anything about it but we all lived in the mess and we got to know each other. And for two weeks we actually did ground courses in your individual trades. As a navigator I did another two weeks in further navigational training. And you just met in the evening in the mess and you’d have a drink together. And I, I was at the end of the fortnight instruction came out that captains of aircraft had to submit the names of their crews within forty eight hours. So you crewed up with the people you knew. And in fact it was my rear gunner who got me into the crew. Because he said to me one night, we were sitting in the mess and he said, ‘Have you got a crew yet?’ I said, ‘No. Not yet.’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll introduce you to your pilot.’ So we went through to the snooker room and the pilot was playing snooker there. He was a New Zealander. Norman Overend. And my rear gunner said, ‘This is your navigator.’ And Norman looked up and said, ‘Aye. Fine.’ And he carried on with his snooker. And it was left at that. My rear gunner was a fellow who was Isador Spagatner, he was, he was a Jew of Austrian descent although he’d been born in this country. And he was the oldest member of the crew. He’d been in the police force before he joined up in the Air Force. And he always, on operations he always carried a revolver in his flying boot in case he got shot down because he reckoned he wouldn’t stand much chance as a Jew. But when he bailed out his revolver fell out of his landing boot and he landed without it. GT: From the Wellingtons did you move as a complete crew to the Lancaster OTU? AM: No. We moved on. We moved from there to Stirlings. GT: Right. AM: And we spent about two months on Stirlings. My pilot liked a Stirling. I liked the Stirling. The best navigation station of any aircraft I’ve ever been in. Commodious. Plenty of room to move around in and the pilot liked it. The only person that didn’t like it was the flight engineer because being electrical he kept running around changing fuses on it and he was busy doing that. And at one time the mid-upper turret started revolving and got faster and faster and the mid-upper gunner was going to be sick. Eventually he had to vacate the turret and he couldn’t stop the turret. It was still, still revolving when we landed. GT: So, so why were you changed then from the Stirling on to the Lancaster? AM: I think the conversion from the Wellington to the Stirling was only to get four-engine experience. GT: Right. Right. AM: And then once we’d finished with that we spent a conversion course which lasted about four days on to Lancasters. GT: And where was that? AM: That was at Feltwell. GT: Right. Right. And you left Feltwell as, as a crew. AM: And went straight to 15 Squadron. GT: Straight to 15 Squadron. AM: Mildenhall. GT: Mildenhall. And what was it like arriving on your, on your first squadron as a new team? AM: Well, when we walked into the squadron we had to report. Mildenhall, you actually stayed in individual houses. You didn’t, each crew had a house. GT: Gosh. AM: They were the old married quarters because Mildenhall was a pre-war station. GT: Yeah. AM: And the married quarters were vacated and we stayed in a house. A two room [cough] Excuse me. A two room and kitchen house in a terrace [coughs] Which was really a plus point. It was quite good. It worked out very well. And we walked. You had to cross the road to get into the station then. And we walked, the first day we walked in my wireless operator was a chap, Bob Kendall. And we walked in, we met another wireless operator called Bill Kendall who came from Liverpool and stayed one street behind where Bob Kendall stayed and they’d never met before. GT: Gosh. AM: That was a coincidence. Bill Kendall had been there for about a month by that time. When we walked in he just said, ‘Well, good luck to you,’ and that was it. He ended up, he finished his tour and eventually at the end of the war he joined the Australian Air Force and he served there for a while and was billeted out in Australia for many years. GT: Tell me, tell me what you can recall about your very first operational mission. AM: Well, when I reported to the navigation office I had to go and see the navigation leader who was a fellow flight lieutenant, Jackie Fabian. He was an Australian. And when I walked in and spoke to him I said, ‘I’m George Thomson, reporting for duty,’ he said, ‘Oh, not another bloody Scot.’ [laughs] he said, ‘We’ve got a Bagpipes, we’ve got a Haggis. We’ve got one or two with Scottish names. We’ll just call you Tommy.’ I didn’t know why he couldn’t just call me George. Anyway, I was called Tommy from then on and I was known as that. And after that, when I came back after the end of the war at one time when I was at work, when I came back home my mother said, ‘There’s been a chap on the phone asking for Tommy but I said there was no Tommy here. But he said he would phone back.’ And he phoned back that night and it was a chap from the squadron who knew me of course as Tommy. It was another navigator. GT: Right. Right. So — AM: Oh, and that, that very first day when I walked into the navigation office Jack Fabian said to me as I was walking out, he said, ‘Would you like to do a trip tonight? I’m short of a navigator.’ I said, ‘No. I’d rather do my first trip with my own crew.’ He said, ‘Oh, that’s alright.’ So there was never any compunction. The only time I flew with other crews was on training exercises. I never did any operations with other crews. GT: Right. And can you remember you first mission with your own crew? AM: Yeah. The flight engineer and I were at the cinema in the afternoon and it flashed up on the screen, “Would sergeants Howarth and Thomson report to their flights immediately.” So we walked down to the flights. We obviously hadn’t read the Battle Order in the mess that day and the rest of the crew were, were getting ready to go out to the aircraft. I met Jack Fabian, the navigation leader and he handed me a flight bag and he said, ‘Follow the crew in front until you get sorted out,’ and off we went. It was a daylight on a French target. [recording paused] GT: Right. AM: So there were no repercussions after that. I mean we didn’t get in to any trouble about it. It was just the fact that we hadn’t read the Battle Order for that day. GT: So, how did the mission itself go? AM: Fine. We were attacked three times over the target. The first time running in to the target we got attacked. The rear gunner spotted the aircraft coming in and gave us, well we did some evasive action. John Jones, the bomb aimer hadn’t let the bombs go over the target. Said to the pilot, ‘We’ll have to go around again.’ And we went around again. We got attacked again and he didn’t drop the bombs again. So we went around for a third time and the pilot said, ‘This time you drop the bloody bombs [laughs] never mind where they land.’ But that was the fact, that was the only, the first time, the first trip we were attacked three times. One other trip we were attacked once. And we were coming back from a night trip over the Channel and a fighter appeared behind us but he peeled off. He didn’t come in to attack us. He just peeled off. And it was only on the last, our nineteenth trip that we got attacked again. GT: Right. And were most of your trips at night or did you fly any daytime sorties? AM: No. There was probably about fifty fifty. GT: Right. AM: Night and daytime. GT: Right. And — AM: See D-Day, D-Day had taken place. The army was pushing on and we were bombing quite a lot of the German troops ahead of the army. GT: Right. Tell me about one of these sorties. What were they, what were they like? AM: Well, one of the ones that we did we were supposed to bomb from six thousand feet and halfway across the Channel the Master Bomber came on and said, ‘Cloud base is eleven hundred feet. Get down to a thousand feet and drop your bombs from there.’ So we dropped our bombs from there and we came back with damage to the bottom the plane where the bombs had exploded. Bits had come up and — GT: Right. And obviously at night flak was an issue. You know. What was it like the first time that you encountered really bad flak? AM: Not very good. After about the second or third time they introduced a device which if you’ve a predicted gun on you from the ground it lit up a signal in the pilot’s cockpit and he counted to three and turned left or right. And when you flew on you could see that the thing exploded where you would have been if you had carried straight on. Or near enough to where you would been if you had you carried straight on. GT: Right. And can you explain to me a little bit, particularly from your perspective as a navigator, what the, what the corkscrew manoeuvre was like? AM: Pretty awful. You had to grab all your instruments and hold on to them. The night we were shot down we were bombing from sixteen thousand feet and we did a couple of corkscrews. And by the time we got down to the bailout stage we were probably down at about twelve thousand feet. GT: Right. AM: You lost about two thousand feet every time you did a corkscrew. GT: Right. Gosh. And tell me a little bit about being a navigator in the Lancaster. You know, behind this curtain as it were and, you know maybe a little bit cut off. How did it feel not seeing the action and seeing the action and — AM: Well, you were, you were so busy all the time. In fact most of the long trips that we did we only did two very long eight and a half hour trips. One was to Stuttgart and the other was to Stettin up in the Baltic. They were long trips and the only time that you could really relax was when you were over the target. I used to have my coffee and sandwiches when we were actually over the target rather than try and interrupt when I was navigating. Twice we were selected as group navigators. This was the scheme that they introduced. You had to send back a position every six, six minutes and they collated these. There was, there was three hundred aircraft. There might be fifty doing this and they collated this information and then they sent back signals to give you a correction of course rather than leaving it to the individuals to sort it out themselves. It didn’t work too well. Only did it twice. GT: Was this to try and get a more accurate wind? Or — AM: Yeah. And try and keep the main force together. GT: Right. Right. And on these, particularly the night sorties how aware were you of the other aircraft around about you? AM: Not really. Until you got over the target. A couple of times I went up to the pilot’s cockpit and had a look out when we were over the target just to see what was happening. You could see a lot of aircraft then but not really before that. Never, I never because I wasn’t looking out at all. I mean I was navigating on instruments and I didn’t bother with what was going on outside. GT: And of the targets you went to, again at night when you went up to the front end what was the one that sticks in your mind most? AM: I think the one that stuck in my mind was the one going to Rüsselsheim which was in the Ruhr area. And there was a hell of a lot of flak going up ahead of me when I looked out from the pilot’s cockpit. And I saw one plane getting hit but it didn’t go down. It was actually hit but I didn’t see it go down at all. But I saw, saw a flame bursting out from one of the wings and then it seemed to die off. GT: Right. Gosh. What was it like as a crew when you got back to Mildenhall after, after a sortie? What was the sense, your personnel sense and the sort of feeling among the crew? AM: Relief. Relief to some extent. You went into your, your post briefing of course and that took a bit of time and then you went back to the mess and had a meal. It was just a question of a bit of relief. There was only, there was one time and we were actually we did a raid late afternoon about 4 o’clock to a synthetic bomb site. A synthetic oil supply in Germany. And it was covered with cloud when we got there and we bombed. We did bomb but we came back. We probably got back about 8 o’clock at night and we were told we would have to stand by and do it again. And then we were kept in the briefing room. And about 10 o’clock they then said, ‘Well, you’d better go back to your beds and have a rest and we’ll call you out whenever it’s required.’ So they called us out about 2 o’clock. Back down to the briefing room and we were there for the rest of the night. And, and the next day. Now, the interesting thing was, and there’s a photograph of it in the some of the magazines. You may have seen it. At Mildenhall there was an investiture taking place the next day. And of course, we were, we were all in the briefing room and I hadn’t shaved for two days. I hadn’t had the chance to shave for two days. I didn’t wear regulation uniform when I was flying. I wore a navy shirt, towelling shirt which I found more comfortable than flying in the regulation shirts. And it had its own collar and I just flew open neck in it. And the, we were told not to come out of the briefing room. Not to be seen because the investiture was taking place. And we all, we understood that it was Bomber Harris who was coming to do the investiture. In fact it was the King and Queen and the two princesses. We didn’t know that. But the King was obviously very observant because there was only about fifty aircrew on parade for the investiture. Including those who were being invested. And there was two squadrons of aircraft — 15 and 622 Squadrons, both based at Mildenhall. Two squadrons of aircraft sitting around the perimeter. And the King said to the, the air commodore who was the group commander, ‘Where are the rest of the aircrew?’ And the commander had to admit that we were in the briefing room waiting to take off. The king said, ‘I want to see them.’ So an RAF Regiment sergeant appeared on a bike, come in to the briefing room and said, ‘Everybody outside and just form up in groups. The King wants to come and have a word with you.’ So we came out and had a, well if you see the photographs. You haven’t seen these photographs have you? GT: No. AM: I’ll let you see one. We were standing there. A really scruffy bunch. And the King and Queen came along. Princess Elizabeth was behind them. I don’t know where Margaret was at that time. Anyway, there was a [knock] and an Australian pilot standing very, in the bunch that I was in right at the front. And of course being an Australian with a different coloured uniform the King spotted him and said to him. And this, I’m going to use a very crude word here. The King said to him, ‘I understand you’ve been waiting since this morning to take off for a bombing raid.’ The Australian pilot shifted his chewing gum and said, ‘We’ve been waiting all f’ing night sir.’ And the King turned to the air commodore and said, ‘Perhaps next time you’ll get your facts right.’ There were no repercussions to that either. GT: Yeah [laughs] What was it, what was the local area like around Mildenhall during the war? AM: Very quiet. Not much doing at all. The, the village was, was quite a wee bit away from the actual station itself. There was a pub called the Bird in Hand just outside the station and that was a sort of rallying point. At nights we’d go there. And once a month the, the two squadrons would get together and have a booze up there with the OCs — GT: Right. AM: In attendance as well. GT: Right. AM: But other than that it was not very good. There was a bakehouse that also had a small café attached to it and quite often in the morning if you were late up and didn’t want to go in to the mess you went down to the café and had your breakfast down there. The OC did not recommend it but we just did it. GT: And what about interractions with the, with the non-aircrew part of the team? You know, the ground crew and the admin staff. AM: We got on very well. We had the same ground crew when we had LS-P Peter as we had when we LS-M Mike and we used to take them out once a month for a booze up. Not on the station. We took them to a local pub. GT: Right. And did you ever come home to Scotland during the war? During your leave. AM: Oh yes, yeah. You see you got a week’s leave every six weeks. GT: Right. AM: If you were on operations. And I came up and I took Norman Overend. Twice I brought him up to stay with my parents and I over the week’s leave. GT: Right. And how was that? You were coming away from the intensity of flying operations to coming to, you know what by that stage of the war was a completely different area in Scotland where the war wasn’t directly impacting. AM: It was, because my mother got quite annoyed about it. That you got this week’s leave every six weeks and somebody, one of our neighbours had said to my mother one time, ‘I see George is home again,’ Sorry, ‘Does he not, does he not do anything? Is he not actually doing anything?’ My mother was flaming. She said, ‘He’s flying all the time.’ That was the end of it. GT: Tell me now George about, about your, your last mission. AM: My last mission was I regarded it as a bit of a disaster because we were told we were bombing Frankfurt. Three hundred and ninety eight Lancasters were scheduled to bomb Frankfurt that night. It was the last major attack on Frankfurt of the war because German troops were coming through. Through Frankfurt to the station to get down to the front lines. And, but the route took us just north of Mannheim before we had to turn on to the last course to get to Frankfurt. And it was on that last turn just north of Mannheim that we got attacked from the rear. And as we straightened out after we did our evasive action we got attacked from underneath by this, this guy. Henrik Schmidt. GT: Right. And was this the schrage musik that was fired? AM: Yeah. It was. Aye. And they hit our bomb bay. We had a mixed load of incendiaries and heavies. They hit the incendiaries on the port side. And the incendiaries of course just went up in flames underneath the wireless operator’s seat. That was when it, I heard the bang and looked across to the wireless operator and I could see the flames going up under his seat which he vacated fairly quickly. He had a go at it with a fire extinguisher but it didn’t do much good. And then the flames started to spread on to the port wing. And it was at that point that the pilot just said that we should bale out. GT: Right. We’ll have a wee pause. And then — [recording paused] GT: That’s not, not the intention. Right. Ok. Right. So, so George you’ve just been attacked. We now know it was by an ME 109, 110 and you’re leaving the aircraft. Tell me. Tell me what happened then. AM: Well, I was still at my navigation desk when the pilot said bale out because the port wing’s going on fire. So we started to bale out and as I passed the pilot he said to me, ‘Fix my parachute for me, George.’ He just wore a chest parachute. So I picked his parachute and he said, ‘Good luck.’ That was his last remarks to me. I went down to the hatch. The bomb aimer had opened the hatch by this time. And the flight engineer went out first and I went out second after him. And the wireless operator came out after me. And the bomb aimer came out after him. And the two gunners went out the rear door. What happened to the mid-upper gunner we just don’t know but I mean he was killed but I suspect he was killed on the ground. Anyway, I landed in the same field as the flight engineer and that’s where we started to make our attempt to walk out of Germany. GT: Tell me a bit about that. AM: Well, I landed. It was a field of maize that we landed in. I landed in the middle of the field and when I got up and had a look around I could see this parachute stuck up part of a tree in the corner of the field. And I decided to walk over and find out who this was. So I walked over there and it was our flight engineer. We got the parachute down. He was, he’d landed on the ground all right. And we got the parachute down. Buried the parachutes and then decided what we’d do we would try to get away from the spot where we’d been shot down. And we seemed to be in open country and we just headed off. We had a choice of either going to Switzerland or going to Alsace Lorraine. And we chose Alsace Lorraine in the expectation that we might meet up with some of our own troops coming up north. But as I say we didn’t. We got down to the Rhine and that was when we were caught. But that was our decision. GT: And during the, during the march out how many days were you on the run before you were caught. AM: Eight days. GT: Right. AM: Yeah. GT: So you must have had some remarkable experiences during the eight days. AM: We had. Yeah. We had. We had quite a lot. I’ve actually given a talk especially on that particular subject because eight days covers quite a lot and quite a few things happened to us. Including for example walking through a village one time when we didn’t realise we’d turned a corner and we were heading straight into a village with women and children in the street. GT: And what were you wearing? AM: We were in our RAF uniforms. We just carried on walking. We nodded to the women and carried on straight through and that was it. Nobody paid any attention to us. GT: Gosh. AM: Whether it was because there was the two of us I don’t know. That might have had something to do with it. But we felt if we’d turned, if we’d turned back a way they might have suspected something. And the choice was we keep on walking and hope for the best. GT: So how were you actually captured? GT: Well, we got down to a place called Rastatt down near the Rhine. And the [pause] we’d walked through Rastatt that night. And there was a big marshalling yard there and we went into the marshalling yard in the hope that we might find a train that might take us across the Rhine. We didn’t as it happened. We got stopped by a railway policeman. Well, we think he was a railway policeman. He was certainly in uniform. And he talked to us and we couldn’t understand what he was saying. And we didn’t say anything to him and he couldn’t understand what we were trying to say. And he lost interest in us and walked away and left us. And at that point we decided we’d get out of this place and get out of Rastatt and we started heading down a road that was going towards the Rhine. And about 3 o’clock in the morning we decided we’d better rest in this wood rather than try and get down to the Rhine early morning. And we dived in to this wood and found this spot to get down and shelter and laid down and went to sleep. And about 7 o’clock in the morning Barry give me a shake and said, ‘Look who’s coming.’ I woke up and there was four guys, four German soldiers with fixed bayonets bearing down upon us. That, that was it. We’d gone to sleep about two hundred yards from a German army camp we hadn’t spotted. GT: And what happened to you then? AM: Well, it was actually, they were actually Austrians that caught us. And it was an Austrian tank regiment that was in this camp. We were taken back into the camp and two officers came out and they seemed quite amused by the whole incident. And then the first thing they did was take our boots off and we had to stand in our stocking soles while they decided what to do with us. And then they got a horse and cart out and we, the two of us and two guards were taken back in to Rastatt and stuck in the local jail. A county jail. I’ve been back in it twice since the war and, haven’t been back to the jail but I’ve been back in Rastatt. Very smart place too. And we got stuck in individual cells and that was it. And then that, that was about the time we got there it was probably be about 8 in the morning and before 9 o’clock the door opened and an officer came in. German uniform. He was an Austrian. And an NCO. And the NCO barked at me, ‘English?’ And I said, ‘No.’ And he said, ‘American?’ I said, ‘No.’ That was all he seemed to know and he turned to the officer and had a few words and the officer then turned to me and said in pretty good English, ‘Well, if you’re not English and you’re not American what are you?’ And I said, ‘I’m Scottish.’ So, he turned and explained to the NCO who was then despatched from the cell. The officer stayed with me and the interesting thing was he didn’t ask me any questions about where I’d been shot down or where I’d been because I had eight days growth on my face anyway and I was looking pretty scruffy. And he was more interested in telling me he’d been educated at Oxford and he’d left there in 1937 and gone back to Germany. And then the NCO reappeared with a tray bearing a plate of meat and potatoes, a slab of bread and a mug of coffee. The coffee was foul. Not very good at all. And then they went off to Barry’s cell. He was two cells down and they opened the door and the NCO said, ‘English?’ And Barry said, ‘Yes,’ and they just shut the door and left him. He didn’t get, he didn’t get anything to eat until lunchtime. So it paid to be Scottish. I think it was the fact that it was Austrians and Scottish. If it, if it had been Germans and Scottish they wouldn’t have paid any attention. But because he was an Austrian I think he sympathised with the Scottish that we were involved too. GT: So what happened when you left Rastatt? AM: We were there three days. And the second day I was in the loo and I was standing washing my hands when this German, this English officer came in. I didn’t know there was an English officer there. I was puzzled by it because he was actually dressed in his best blue. He wasn’t wearing a battledress. He was wearing a uniform top. And he said to me, ‘What squadron are you from?’ And I said, ‘Mind your own bloody business,’ and walked out and left him. And the interesting thing was the next day when Barry and I got moved this English officer didn’t come with us. He was a German. Or an Austrian. He was in to find out information about us. That was it. GT: And where did you go to then? AM: We got taken by a van about twenty, it must have been about between twenty or thirty miles heading north up towards Frankfurt to the Interrogation Centre. The Luftwaffe. Dulag Luft. And we went into this small village and we were stuck in another cell there for the night with three other prisoners that they’d rounded up. Two. Two English and one American. He was an American fighter pilot. The other two were English bomber crew members. And then we got moved the next day up to Frankfurt. Up to Dulag Luft. GT: Right. And did you get any reaction from the civilian population? Or — AM: Well, we had when we got to Frankfurt because we had to walk quite a bit through Frankfurt. GT: What was it like? AM: I got hit in the head by a turnip. Somebody heaved it at me. Fortunately it wasn’t going very fast when it hit me in the back of the head. I just ignored it. There was about thirty of us at that time and we’d been amassed together and were heading for Dulag Luft itself. And that was it. GT: Right. AM: But you see Arnhem had taken place by this time and Dulag Luft, the interrogation camp, we were only there three days and then got moved to the prison camp. But my bomb aimer and my wireless operator were both there and they’d been there, they were caught within twenty four hours of having been shot down and they’d been kept there all the time we were missing. Which was eight days on the run, three days in Rastatt and overnight in this wee village I can’t, I didn’t know the name of, and then a day’s travel up to — so they were there about nine or ten days and they’d been told that we were dead, the flight engineer and I because they couldn’t find us. But the pilot’s body was in the plane. He was, he died in the plane. GT: Right. And you got moved from Frankfurt then. AM: To, over to Stalag Luft 7 in Silesia. GT: Right. That was a long journey. AM: Five days we were on the train. But a lot of the time was spent sitting in sidings while other trains that were more important were going through. Particularly troop trains were going passed. We were each issued with a Red Cross parcel before we got on the train. That kept us going for the five days. GT: Right. AM: And the Germans who were guarding us got a loaf of bread and two sausages. GT: Right, George Thomson. Warrant Officer George Thomson, for the moment thank you very much indeed. AM: My pleasure. Thank you. GT: Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I could listen to you go on all day it’s just — right. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with George Thomson. One Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alastair Montgomery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-10-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AThomsonGB171005 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:39:00 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource George Thomson had always wanted to fly. When he volunteered for the RAF he hoped to be a pilot but re-mustered as a navigator. He was posted to 15 Squadron based at RAF Mildenhall. On their first operation they were attacked by fighters three times. On their 19th trip they were attacked again and were shot down. The crew baled out, although the pilot and the mid-upper gunner were killed. When he landed he and his flight engineer attempted to evade but were captured after eight days and spent the rest of the war as prisoners of war. Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Germany Great Britain Poland England--Suffolk Germany--Frankfurt am Main Germany--Oberursel Germany--Rastatt Poland--Tychowo Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1942 1945 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Maureen Clarke 15 Squadron aircrew Anson bale out bombing crewing up Dulag Luft Elizabeth II, Queen of Great Britain (1926 - 2022) evading George VI, King of Great Britain (1895-1952) Lancaster Me 110 military living conditions military service conditions navigator prisoner of war RAF Bishops Court RAF Feltwell RAF Mildenhall Schräge Musik shot down Stalag Luft 7 Stirling Wellington https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/1029/11401/AMearsCE170921.mp3 edf2f184d73bf03b40c1c7f7b746d032 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Mears, Charles Charles E Mears C E Mears Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Flight Lieutenant Charles Mears DFC (1923 - 2017). He flew operations as a pilot with 218 Squadron. The collection was catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Mears, CE Transcribed audio recording A resource consisting primarily of recorded human voice. Transcription Text transcribed from audio recording or document AM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre. The interviewer is Alistair Montgomery, Monty, and the interviewee is Flight Lieutenant Charles Mears, Distinguished Flying Cross. The interview is taking place at Charlie’s home in West Kilbride and his son in law, Jim Ferguson is present. Charles, good afternoon. Tell me a little bit about your family background and where you lived. CM: Yeah. AM: Prior to joining the Royal Air Force. CM: Yes. Well, I was born in Manchester. My parents had an off licence and grocers in a place called Hulme. H U L M E. AM: Right. CM: And I I was born on the 9th of December 1923. And my father was a Scot. He was born in Edinburgh but emigrated to Canada. And he joined the, during the First World War he joined the Canadian Army with his brother George and they were both in France and they met my mother’s brother in France. And my mother’s brother invited them over to their home in England and at that time they were in Manchester because my grandfather was a tunneller and he built the first, well he didn’t personally but he was the foreman ganger on the first tunnel under the Clyde. And they’d moved to Manchester because in the Victorian era they were building all the sewers in, in Manchester. And my Uncle Jack, which is my father’s brother he was also a tunneller and in fact I think they were in the tunnelling company in the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry. And they obviously, that’s where my father met my mother in England and that’s why I’m here. And we lived there. I went to school at Princess Road School which was just famous for, for footballers really. And then the war broke out in in 1939. Oh, I wanted to go in the Royal Air Force and I wasn’t, my schooling wasn’t, it was only an elementary school so that I needed, I needed to have experience in English, maths and science. So I went to night school as we called it, evening school if you like, for three years with a view to going in to the Royal Air Force as an aircraft apprentice at Halton. But of course the war broke out in 1939 and me and my pal, which was a Welsh boy were determined to, to join something. And we first of all went to join the Navy and I didn’t know much about it and I said to John, my friend, ‘Well, what do I do? What do I say we go in as the Navy?’ He said, ‘Well tell them you want to be an artificer’s mate.’ I said, ‘What the hell is that?’ So he said, ‘Well, I don’t know but tell them you want to be.’ So, anyway we joined up and they gave us a form for my father to fill in because I was fifteen when the war broke out. Anyway, cutting a long story short my father threw it in the fire and said, ‘You’re not joining the Navy.’ I think because he’d been in the Army in the First World War and told me stories where he never had his boots off for three months and horrible things about the war. Anyway, we then said, John my pal, said, ‘Well, we’ve got to join something.’ So we’ll join the, we’ll join the LDV which it was then. The Local Defence Volunteers. That was before the, before the Home Guard. And he said that, ‘But they’ll ask you. You’ll have to have some experience of shooting.’ So, he said, ‘Tell them you’ve, you’ve experience of rabbit shooting,’ he said, ‘Because I used to shoot.’ He came from Wales and he said, ‘I’ve done a bit of rabbit shooting.’ So we went to this place and I said, when they asked me I said, ‘Well, rabbit shooting.’ So, they said, ‘Well, where are the bloody rabbits in Hulme?’ And so we got kicked out of that. So we said, ‘Well, we’ll join the Army. We’ll join the cadets.’ So there was a place called Hardwick Green Barracks in, in Manchester. So we, we went there and there was a big door and a little door going in to the big door. And I opened this little door and there was a line-up of lads with just a cap on, with a peak cap, all with one rifle stood in a line and must have been a sergeant or somebody shouting all sorts of things at them. So I closed the door and I said to John, ‘We’re not doing that. I don’t like the look of that at all.’ So he said, ‘Well we’ve got to join something.’ He said, ‘The only thing left is the Air Force.’ So he said, ‘But the Air Force don’t have a cadet force.’ The Army did and the Navy did but the Air Force didn’t. So he said, ‘But they’ve got what they called the ADCC,’ which was the Air Defence Cadet Corps. So he said, ‘We can join that.’ He said, ‘The only trouble is you have to buy your own uniform.’ he said, ‘And it’s, it’s five pounds.’ Or four pounds fifty. I forget now which. Well, that was equivalent to a man’s wage in those days because where I was working, ‘cause I started work at fourteen that was in fact I remember them taking a guy out to a for a drink who’d just managed to be awarded five pounds a week. So anyway, surprise surprise my father said, ‘Well, that’s alright. I’ll pay for it.’ So we bought this uniform and I joined the ADCC. Well, that in in due course became 1941 ATC Squadron. That was, as far as I know the first ATC squadron there was. And during that time the, the three officers used to come periodically and interview people to go in for the forces. To go in the Air Force. Well, you could be, you could be called up at, at eighteen then. That means conscripted when you were eighteen. But you could, you couldn’t be, you couldn’t be conscripted into aircrew. You had to be a volunteer. Anyway, I didn’t know anything about this. I knew you had to be conscripted because my brother was three years older than me and he’d been conscripted in to the army. So these people, I used to be, I used to march the cadets in to see the officers for this selection board and they said why aren’t, have you, ‘We haven’t seen you sergeant.’ I was a sergeant then in the ATC. So I said, ‘Well, I’m not old enough, sir.’ They said, ‘Well, we’ll do it now anyway.’ Anyway, they interviewed me and then about, it must have been a few weeks afterwards surprise surprise I got papers, a travel warrant to go up to Cardigan. So I went up to Cardigan and went through various tests. And then I was taken into a room and swore my allegiance to King and country. That was in October ’41 and I was in the Air Force. So, so they couldn’t call you up until you were eighteen and a quarter so, so I was duly called up and went to ACRC Air Crew Receiving Centre in London. And from there you did a few, you did various things. Got your uniform and what have you. But we went to, we were ACRC in, for us, for me was at Lord’s Cricket Ground and they, the first of all you went into the place and, and they said, they asked you where you, what’s your name and address and what school did you go to and what newspapers did you read. And I made what I later realised in later life a mistake because I said, which was true Princess Road Elementary School. Well, that wasn’t the answer really that I should have given. I should have said a High School or something. And they, they sort of sized your gas mask that you’d kept very religiously all, well from being fifteen from the time war broke out until 1941 you’d sort of treasured this thing and guarded it with your life. It was taken off you and thrown into a heap. This was, oh I don’t know, a mile high of all gas masks. And then a guy weighed you up for a uniform and he seemed to be able to just look at you and weigh up what, what you required by just a glance and he gave you this uniform and underwear and the rest of your kit and off you went. And we were put into, which are now we know are quite expensive flats in St John’s Wood. And you had little few exams and if you passed them alright you went to ITW. Yes. Initial Training Wing. And if you didn’t you went to Brighton for more maths instructions. And funnily enough I wasn’t. We’d never done algebra or those things at school so, and one of the things we were asked was transposition of formula which is what it was called. So I said to a colleague I’d joined up with, Bernard Hall, I said, and he was a university boy from Hawarden. Hawarden, I think you pronounce it. In Cheshire. And he said, ‘Don’t worry, Chesa. I’ll show you what to do.’ So he showed me and anyway, I must have passed. But strangely enough he mustn’t have passed because he was sent to Brighton for extra maths and I went to ITW at Cambridge at what was then New Clare College. AM: Right. CM: And then, then from there we did twelve weeks at ITW and then I was posted to Manchester to, like a big holding centre where they put all the people waiting for, for movement. Funnily enough it was a place that my, my father in law had been, it transpired later on, had been to in the First World War. Anyway, I was there for I think about a couple of months at which time I was billeted out. Lived at home at the off licence and grocers I told you about. And then one day we were told would you, asked, ‘Would you like to go to Communion because we’re going, possibly going overseas?’ So I said, ‘Yes. I would,’ because I’d always been brought up to, to go to church. I went to Communion and then we were marched to the railway station at Heaton Park and we were put on the train up to eventually ended up at Gourock in, well not very far from where you live. And we were put off the train in to I think it was called a lighter and I don’t know how we, we obviously arrived at the side of this huge piece of steel it looked with just a big hole in it. And we got off in to it and went up this beautiful staircase. And later on because of a plaque that was on the wall we found out that it was the Queen Mary and apparently the, we were on the way to going to America. And on its trip before this one we went on it had cut through a destroyer and the bow was all stove in and filled with concrete. And anyway we sailed. I think it took about three or four days and the weather was very rough. We went well north because the Queen Mary didn’t have a, it was considered too fast for the U- boats so we didn’t have any escort at all and we ended up in, in Boston Harbour. And then we got off at Boston and were put on the train and went up to Moncton in Canada which is in New Brunswick. And I just wondered how far it was from Montreal because I thought perhaps I could visit some of my relatives if I knew where they were. Anyway, we were in Moncton for only possibly a couple of months I think ‘til November because I think because we were in, we were in an Armistice Day Parade in Moncton. And then we, we got on a train in Moncton and then — AM: So what were you doing in Moncton? Were you doing any more training? CM: No. I didn’t do anything. AM: Right. CM: We just did a bit of marching and that was it. And I know a fellow used to come around who was a bit of, he used to come in the morning and shout out, “Hands off cocks and put on socks, any sick laymen’s lazy,’ and then you reported sick. I remember that. And we put on this train in Moncton and we were apparently going down to Florida for, to join 5 BFTS, British Flying Training School. And I think navigators went to, to Rivers in Manitoba but we were on this. And we went down through New York first and we were got off the train in New York and we were invited and taken to the Stage Door Canteen which was a famous place where apparently all the troops went. And the main, main artist on at the Stage Door Canteen was Larry Adler at that time. The well-known harmonica player. And a lady took my name and address at the door and said, ‘We’ll send a card. We’ll send a card to your mother and let her know how you are.’ Well, later on. Many, many years later my sister I have a well I had a brother and I still have a sister but she’s thirteen years younger than me. My brother was well was three years older than me. He’s dead now. Been dead some time. And my mother had the, still had the card from that they’d sent. And it was a Jewish lady who’d sent it and said, “We’ve seen your son and he’s alright,” and that. That was the first word she’d had of me. So she was very pleased to get that. AM: Oh aye. CM: Yeah. So then we never got off the train after that. We went down through, through Georgia and I marvelled at the, I mean America was so vast and we were miles and miles of peanut stacks in Georgia and things. The first stop we came to in Florida was a place called Sebring, which I believe was where the five hundred miles road races are or something. Sebring. And they greeted us with a silver band and two big sacks of oranges. And we hadn’t seen oranges or anything, you know for a long time. So that was nice. And then we arrived at Clewiston which is right at the bottom of Lake Okeechobee which is the big lake in, not very far. And went up to, we went to, came to our camp and we couldn’t believe our eyes when we arrived there and saw this big swimming pool and all the billets were all like little apartments were around the swimming pool. And I was, we were put in, apparently it was Course 12 and it was the first course that had Americans with us. Apparently the, we heard that the Americans had decided that our navigation was probably superior to theirs so they trained, because they’d all trained with us they were Army or Air Force armaments instructors but the American instructors and your ground duties were American. The Meteorological fella was a fella from New York who used to talk about the turning and turning of the, of the clouds for the, in the cumulus and cumulo nimbus. And they were, most of the Americans were already or some of them, there were seven. The course was a hundred. A hundred people total and seventeen were Americans and eighty three of us were British boys. So they, and they’d come from, from some sort of university to, to 5 BFTS because they used to talk about, they had lots of sayings which when you’ve seen American fellas on the television they’re marching left right and singing their songs and this but they said, superiors used to say to them, ‘Stand to attention. How many wrinkles have you got under your chin?’ And when you were on the tables for your lunch they’d say, ‘Pass the salt and don’t short stop it.’ They meant you couldn’t, if you were a junior then you couldn’t stop the salt being passed down. It had to go from one to the other so, so they had what they called a, they appointed one cadet from, from, from the British side and one from the American side to be what they classed as a senior under officer and he was like the commandant of you, and any complaints and so on he was the one who had to direct it to the authorities. And they called it the honour system. And they used to say, well the Americans have got the honour and the, and the British have got the system because we didn’t take any notice much of things that were going on. And I had four, well not I, we had four Americans in our billet and they astounded us at first because they all had different smelly stuff, you know. Sprays and stuff. Well, we didn’t have any of that. We had, we used to perhaps a bar of carbolic soap or something. But they had all squeeze under your arm and whatever. Anyway, we were chatting around and they said, the two boys I was with were a fella called Harold Wilkin and Jack Hough. And Jack Hough was an elderly bloke. He was married. Well, elderly to me because I was eighteen. I don’t know, he was twenty something. And Harry used to, I found the, some of the ground subjects quite difficult because I hadn’t been that well educated and Jack used to, I had the top bunk and he had the bunk underneath me and he didn’t seem to do any studying. He said, ‘You do all the studying. I’ll be alright.’ And then he’d, he’d try and copy off me if he could. So, but it was, it was unbelievable to have this beautiful swimming pool. Anyway, we were there until, and I, they said, the boys said, ‘Well, the first thing to do is Palm Beach can’t be far away.’ Well, Palm Beach to me the words were just something you heard on, on the films as we called it, you know. Or the pictures. But they said, ‘Well, so we’ll hitch a ride to Palm Beach.’ Well, we, we did one weekend. When the first weekend came up we, we thought we’ll hitch a ride. Well, it turned out to be ninety miles to Palm Beach. And so we saw a truck coming by and it had all melons on the back and there was a couple of what we used to then say coloured fellas driving it and we, we gave them the thumbs as you did when you were hitching and got on the back of this wagon. And we eventually got to Palm Beach. What we thought was Palm Beach. But we were expecting to see the water and the beach but there wasn’t. There was just this strip of water and nothing. Well, apparently that is a place. The water at, is not Palm Beach when you’re there. Its West Palm Beach. Palm Beach is across the strip of water which they called Lake Worth. It isn’t a lake but it’s a strip of water and a bridge over to, to the other side which is Palm Beach proper. The proper beach. So, anyway we, we asked somebody at, the Americans have a thing called the PX which is the equivalent of like our YMCA. So we went into this PX and asked them and they said, ‘No. Well, if you want Palm Beach you’ll have to go across the, across the Lake Worth.’ So we stayed. We said, ‘Well, where can we stay?’ They said, ‘Well, there’s a nice little inn just, just around the corner.’ So we stayed there the night and the next morning we went across this bridge and we noticed like black men peddling these like big bassinette affairs, carrying a couple of white people over the bridge. Apparently this is how they, they travelled around. And we got to the end of the road and it was a road called Coronation Road and we went down to the bottom. There was a little picket fence. And then we saw this lovely beach and then the ocean. So we climbed over and we settled ourselves on the beach and lo and behold there were there were which I now know were coconut trees on and some coconuts husks. Well, I now know they were coconuts husks on the, on the ground and these trees. So I said, ‘Oh, look at those.’ They said, ‘Yes. We’ll bag those up.’ And so I said, ‘What are they?’ He said, ‘They’re coconuts.’ So I said, ‘Coconuts?’ Well, the only coconuts I’d seen were the ones that are on a coconut shy. So they said, ‘Oh no. That’s the coconut’s inside those. We’ll show you what to do.’ And they broke open this thing so I learned now the coconut was inside the shell. I didn’t know that. So we settled down there and had a swim and then suddenly a black fella arrived out of the, and came along the beach and said, ‘I’m afraid you can’t stay here. You’re on private land.’ So I said, ‘Private land?’ He said, ‘Yes. This belongs to, to Waikiki,’ which was, he said, ‘But I’ll have a word with the mistress and see what she says.’ So anyway, this lady came down and her name eventually we found out was Mrs Nesmith. N E S M I T H. And she said, ‘Oh, where are you?’ And we explained and of course she knew nothing about the British boys at 5 BFTS or anything else. So she said, ‘Oh, come up,’ and she said, ‘You can change in our, in our bath house here,’ she said, ‘And then come in.’ So we chatted to her and she said, ‘What are you going to do?’ I said, ‘Well, we’ll get, hitch, hitch a ride back.’ She said, ‘Well, no. You can stay the night’. She said, ‘We can fix you up alright,’ she said, ‘I’ll give you some of Isla’s pyjamas.’ Well, Isla must have, well is her husband and apparently he had been a banker but there were a lot of private banks prior to the big crash of whenever it was. And a lot of these little banks had all gone bust so they’d, they’d taken to be estate agents and they had this big, big house called Waikiki and they said, ‘You can stay here,’ and she gave me this thing. Nice pyjamas. And she said, ‘Well, if you get a chance you can come here anytime and just, just help yourself.’ So anyway, cutting a long story this lady befriended and treated me almost like my mother. She was elderly and I was, well seemed elderly she was probably fiftyish and I was, I mean I was only eighteen so she really treated me very well. And she eventually she actually set up a Cadet Club at Clewiston and she also arranged, she said, ‘Well, I want to arrange for you to meet some, some girls and some of the wealthy people of Palm Beach.’ Well, I thought well if you’re not wealthy I don’t know what is because they each had a car. She had an Oldsmobile and he had a Plymouth and they had this lovely place. Well, that actually that was one of their letting places. That wasn’t their, their home. Their home was at I think 206 Pendleton Avenue if I remember rightly. And eventually me, Harold Wilkin and Jack Hough were the first people she’d ever befriended and as I say she, she eventually set up a Cadet Club in Clewiston and she also befriended over two thousand RAF boys. And she was awarded the, I think I’ve put it in the papers there. I think it was the King’s, the Kings Medal for, not for bravery. For something. And she was given it as an honour on a battleship in, in Miami. But she were a fantastic lady and, and she actually after, after that part of the war she still corresponded with me and my parents and, well mostly my mother and my little sister and sent us all sorts of, I think the first Christmas cake we’d had, and was a really wonderful lady. But funnily enough we, we didn’t want to chance hitchhiking back because we had to be in camp by 23.59 you know. Like a minute to midnight on such and such a day. So we decided to go on the bus. And they said, ‘Well, you can get a bus straight to Clewiston from here.’ This is, this is where, she showed us where the bus stop was and we were standing there and some black people came and stood behind us. And apparently, we found that the black people couldn’t get on the bus until all the whites were on and they couldn’t sit with you. They had to stand or they could sit on a seat with them but they couldn’t sit. And there was a pregnant lady who stood by the side of me and I, I got up and said, ‘Sit down.’ So she said, ‘No. I can’t.’ I said, ‘Just sit down.’ And anyway, apparently, I didn’t know but apparently when I don’t know who did it, whether it was somebody on the bus or one of the driver or what but I was hauled before the coals the following day and said, ‘You’re a guest of the American nation at the moment and irrespective of whatever your feelings are you will obey what they do.’ So I said, ‘Well, what’s the matter?’ He said, ‘They’re just not allowed to be with you.’ And when you went to a cinema they went in one part of the cinema, the coloured people as I call them, I apologise if I’m using the wrong expression but to be honest I’m at a stage where I don’t know really. It’s a different world to me. I don’t mean any disrespect to, to any nation but I just, just instinct with me. So it was, I mean in those days apparently there was, was just complete segregation. They weren’t allowed to. The black or coloured or whatever you call them people were not allowed to mix with you. And even when if you were fishing anywhere, they and you actually, I remember catching some, I think it was cat fish or something and I asked the fella who was showing me the fishing, I said, ‘Can you eat these?’ And he said, ‘Niggers do.’ Well, I mean it’s just a completely different world altogether, but in 1942 that seemed to be the way things were but anyway — AM: What was the, what was the flying like at Clewiston? CM: The flying? AM: The flying. CM: Well, the flying was strange because we were, we were in Stearmans which were open cockpits, twin wing aircraft and, and it was on a grass airfield and at night when we were doing night flying you had to wear snake boots because there were, there were rattlesnakes in the grass. And in fact Milton Steuer, one of the American boys who who had come to join us he was like a famous literary person because he could, he wrote like a brochure afterwards of, of our course, Course 12 called, “Listening Out.” And he, he had a, he had a what I then learned afterwards he had a prize Harley Davidson motorbike. Absolutely beautiful thing. Most of the boys. The American boys all had, some had their wives with them and some had their motorcars and everything. And they, they had the uniforms made weeks and weeks before the graduation. They were all commissioned. And beautiful material. You know, pink trousers and olive green tops. Really lovely stuff. And they, so he shot one of these rattlesnakes and we had, he skinned it and we used to have the skin on the, on the barrack room wall. And Mrs Nesmith arranged for us to go on a deep sea fishing trip with one of the guests of one of her houses and we, we were fortunate. It was a beautiful yacht where there were two seats at the back where you sat with these big rods doing the fishing. And we caught what we called, it was a sailfish but it’s like a swordfish and it had a bill that was about, well the whole thing, the whole, I don’t know whether Jim sent you a picture of it and it was on and it was over seven foot long. Other: A Marlin. CM: Yeah. Well, we call it a sailfish. And it had, it had this bill and they used to put the bill on the wall of the billet as well. And you flew a pennant if you’d caught one of these. And this fella whose yacht we were on said, ‘Damn me,’ he said, ‘I’ve been fishing twenty years and I’ve never caught one of these,’ and he said, ‘Here you are your first trip and you catch one.’ So that was, that was a thing I remember. So then when, when you graduated oh well you did your Wings exam as they called it. That was your final examination and I didn’t know whether I’d done any good or not because I studied like hell but I was at a disadvantage from the beginning because some of the boys, one boy in particular used to, well when he went to the examination he had three different bottles of ink and used different colours to write the answers in. And I think he became top of I don’t know how many people but I had a trouble with, with meteorology at first. I couldn’t. I mean like if I’d had, and I had the misfortune to have one of these strange minds who made fun of everything and like Buys Ballot’s Law. I learned that and it’s like stand with your back to the wind and low pressure’s on your left hand. Well, I, I joked with this so often I actually put in in the answer in the first one. I put, “Stand with your back to the wind and the wind’s behind you.” And the Met Officer, Harold C Cowleyshaw his name was. A real New Yorker. And he said, ‘I suppose you think that’s funny.’ So I said, ‘Well, I didn’t,’ I said, ‘It’s like Newton’s law of motion.’ He said, ‘What’s that?’ I said, ‘A body is at rest and it continues at rest until it moves.’ So he said, ‘Oh, get off.’ So, but these things happen and you make these mistakes. But I was, Mrs Nesmith had said, ‘Well, you boys can come to, to me at Christmas,’ she said, ‘But one of you will have to do the cooking,’ she said, ‘Because Ida,’ that was her servant, who was a a black servant, ‘Goes to Canada in, in the summer because, and normally I go,’ she said, ‘Because it’s too hot in Florida. And also the termites come and they have to treat them. Anyway,’ she said, ‘I’m not going.’ So, she said, ‘One of you will have to. Not you son.’ She wouldn’t let me do a thing. So I must have been looking miserable. She said, ‘What’s wrong with you?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m sweating on, on my exams.’ She said, ‘Oh, I’m not having that,’ and picked up the phone and phoned the station and asked for the CO and wants to know how I’ve done. So she came back and said, ‘Nothing to worry about. You’re fifty fourth.’ So I said, ‘Well, that’s better than being a hundred.’ [laughs] So, so that was alright. But, but she was a lovely lady and that’s my, my highlight of being with 5 BFTS. Well, then I, we trained up and I got bitten by a horsefly on the leg the day of the passing out parade when you got your wings and I had to go into a hospital and so I missed the graduation dinner. And then when we got on the train they arranged for an orderly to come on at every halt to come and drain my leg from this horsefly bite which was quite, quite a nasty thing. And we trained up back to Moncton and then we were on the Louis Pasteur which was one of the ships that were plying backwards and forwards to, to England. And we came, came into Liverpool and I was posted up to Fraserburgh for a conversion on to twin engine aircraft because what had happened is the Battle of Britain had finished. And therefore although we’d actually trained and learned all the fighter manoeuvres in fact two of our boys were killed on simulation of tight turns for fighters, and there was a few accidents of boys getting in to a stall because you had to be tighter and tighter and tighter. So they said. And you did it with fighter affiliation you do, you call the exercises. And they all, they nearly all the boys are buried at a place called Arcadia and the people of Arcadia where they, we went to a few of the funerals of the lads who were killed and the people of Arcadia looked after their graves ever since, and they’ve done a fantastic job. And 5 BFTS have sent them paintings of, of the Stearman and the Harvard together as an acknowledgement of the help they’ve given us. And the 5 BFTS was, Association was formed and it went on for well it only finished not last year it would be the year before. We had a letter we no longer had to give subscriptions. He said they’ll still, they’ll use the money sending out the, the yearly bulletin until the money run out and then the last one out was [unclear] That was it because they, I mean I’m, I’ll be ninety four in December so nearly all of them are no longer with us. But yeah. It was. So I was posted to Fraserburgh. Which was a shock because I’d never been to Scotland. Only once. Although my father was a Scot. My mum and dad with them having the shop never had a holiday together and he brought me up in 1934 to Glasgow to the Empire Exhibition which was in 1934 at Bellahouston Park. And that’s the only time I’d been to Scotland. He went to see two friends. One was in Cathcart I think and, where my father had lived. And the other one was in what I first of all said Milngavie but he soon corrected me and said Milngavie see. So, but Fraserburgh when we came up in ’43 they had to feed us by air. It was, the winter was that bad. And, and the dances which I thought we would be going to an ordinary dance there you didn’t get a ticket you put your arm through and they stamped it, “Paid,” with a, with a indelible stamp on. And every, every dance was a Eightsome Reel. And I could neither dance, I couldn’t, well I could dance. I couldn’t dance the Eightsome Reel. And I couldn’t understand a word the girls were saying. And in fact, this morning I was singing they’ve, they’ve got a song which everybody knew but me and they said at the end, ‘Well, what song would you like to have now?’ So I said, ‘Well, any song you like as long [laughs] as long as it’s in bloody English.’ Anyway, that’s by the way because the only songs I’ve got are, are Scottish songs were ones my father told me but they were either by Will Fyffe or — AM: Harry Lauder. CM: Harry Lauder but — AM: So what was the flying like there? CM: It was alright. Fraserburgh was, we did and I loved the, the Airspeed Oxford. It was a lovely little aeroplane. And we went to different places along the coast. Dallachy and one or two others on BABS flights or SBA flights. Did those. And, and did all the night flying all around. AM: Because the weather must have been quite a factor. CM: Oh, it was dreadful. Dreadful weather. But then from there I was posted to Hooton Park which is now the — AM: Yeah. CM: Vauxhall Motor plant. And I was there for about seven months on, on ASV. That’s Anti-Surface Vessel training with, they were wireless operators who were being trained to, in the Liverpool Bay to look for U-boats and you flew from from Hooton Park anywhere between our coast, our west coast out as far as the Isle of Man and around about. And fortunately because you, I mean you didn’t know where the hell you were going and I could navigate in, I’d only navigated in, in America and that’s where all the loads of north and south are and the, my instructor seemed to, he seemed to, he said to me he could tell where he was by the colour of the soil. But I don’t think he, that was the main thing because he used to fly quite low and we’d fly around the water towers, and all the water towers have their name on them so I think [laughs] he was reading the name. But I found the navigation was, was fairly I could do that alright but in in Scotland or England it’s not quite the same. AM: No. CM: So, we did that and then I was at Hooton Park as I say for about seven months and what I found that I’d fly around because you didn’t know where you were going. They just guided where they went and they were looking for whatever the instructor was teaching them. So then if the time was up which I think was about an hour or an hour and a half I used to fly, fly east until I hit the coast. If I could see Blackpool Tower it was alright. And then I’d, I’d turn right and there were two rivers. There was the River Mersey and the River Dee. So, I knew it was the second one and then fortunately there was a railway line. It isn’t there now. But there was a railway line that went right from like from West Kirby right the way through to Hooton so I just followed the railway line and went in. So that was easy enough to find. It was a bit disconcerting sometimes if, if there was a clamp on and the visibility was quite low. But then I was posted from there to, to OTU. Operational Training Unit at Desborough on Wellingtons. So we did, did fifty hours on Wellingtons and one of the, they used to have if they had a thousand bomber raid or whatever they, they seconded, all training units as well flew. Generally with aircraft that were not exactly top notch because they’d been used for training for a long time. And they obviously had a number of what they called nickel raids which are dropping leaflets instead. And either the Germans couldn’t read them telling them to give up like but either they didn’t read English or they didn’t take much notice. And I, I went to Brest for my nickel raid and it was one of the worst trips I had. It’s because that’s where the U-boat pens were and it was very very well defended. And when we came back we were diverted because it was fog bound and we were diverted to Boscombe Downs which was a grass airfield. And I remember you’d, when you land you open the bomb doors first to see if there’s any hang-ups presumably. And when I opened the bomb doors of course all the shower of leaflets fell out which is — so I had the boys scampering all over trying to pick up all these leaflets and I realised afterwards they really needn’t have bothered. They didn’t worry about a few. I mean they wasn’t the English people weren’t worried about them anyway. So, but that fortunately I found afterwards that actually counted as an operation anyway so, which I was glad it did because it was a pretty hairy target, Brest. So, then from, from that I went to Shepherds Grove I think it was called in in Suffolk for a Heavy Conversion Unit on to Stirlings and then from Shepherds Grove we went to, to Feltwell which was a Lancaster Finishing School. AM: And was that where you crewed up? CM: No. No. You crewed up at OTU. But the crewing up was a strange thing because I’d, I was coming from, from I think it was from Dishforth to, to [pause] I don’t know if it was Dishforth to Feltwell but as I got off the station, out of the train on to the platform this young navigator came up to me and said, ‘Are you crewed up, serg?’ Because I was a sergeant then. Either a sergeant or a flight sergeant, I forget because I’d been a sergeant over twelve months. And then, so I said, ‘No, I don’t think so.’ He said, ‘Well, can I be your navigator?’ I said, ‘Yeah,’ I mean I said, ‘Yes, certainly.’ So I’d already got then one crew member and then we went in and when you go to a station you have to go to, to all sorts of departments you know. Well, you’d know. Well, you did then. You went to the sick quarters and went to the bike shed and God knows where. So I went to the sick quarters and I’m sitting there waiting to see somebody and then a gaggle of blokes came in and slumped on a form of chairs and [unclear] and all these blokes were sort of lolling asleep and this one fella was quite awake. And apparently they were a load of bomb aimers who’d come from Morpeth I think where they’d been doing, it was a Radio School, I think. And a fellow who everybody called Dick, and I called him Dick once I’d been introduced to him he, he came. He was only a livewire. Well I’d found out then later that they’d all just come from, all the way from, from Morpeth in the North East so they were tired. But he seemed quite chirpy. And I found much later on in life that his name wasn’t Dick. His name was actually Bob but his surname was Turpin see. So he was Dick. Like everybody who was White was Chalky White. Anyway, I thought, I said, ‘Are you crewed up?’ So he said, ‘No.’ So I said, well he was what we called a flying A, A haul because he wasn’t a, he wasn’t a navigator he was an observer. And he was both a gunner, a wireless operator and navigator as well. So he was the best of all works. And eventually he was one I, I became closest to and I actually taught him enough to get the Lancaster down because I thought it was, was stupid for say if I got shot or killed and there’s all the crew, I mean. You know they didn’t know anything so, so he could at least put it, I don’t say it would be a good landing but he could put it down. So that was he was fixed. That was, the navigator was fixed. And Bob was, or Dick was fixed and he was a sort of back up navigator if I needed it and he said, ‘Have you got any gunners?’ So I said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Well, I’ve got two Geordie gunners,’ he said, ‘And one of them wants to be a rear gunner,’ he said, ‘Which is unusual. So,’ he said, ‘Should I ask them’? So I said, ‘Yes. Fine.’ So then I got the two gunners. So I was fixed up apart from the wireless operator. Well, we were going to, I forget which station we were at now but I was passing the, where the wireless op was being, where the wireless operators were being trained and this circle of people were there around this one bloke and they were all laughing their socks off. And I thought well he’s a livewire whoever it is in the middle so I said I’ll have him. Well, I didn’t realise they weren’t laughing with him so much as laughing at him because he was, he was the most well intentioned bloke but he really wasn’t that well clued up because twice he [pause] well once on the Wellington he nearly gassed us all to death because he, it was his responsibility to turn the ground and flight switch on to flight when, on the Wellington when you took off and he’d forgotten. And suddenly the cockpit filled with fumes you see. And it was only Dick who said, ‘You bloody well haven’t switched the thing on,’ see. So the battery was going. And he also, he when the wireless wasn’t working once he stripped it all down. He said, ‘I’ll fix it.’ Well, he couldn’t put it back together again, so [pause] But, and he and the navigator who was we called Titch because he was only five foot one and he had a, a motorbike and used to, we used to joke, if you see the a bike coming along and there’s nobody on it that’s Titch. So that was, that was quite funny. So then I was fully crewed up and they truthfully were, were a good bunch of lads. And my rear gunner could turn his hand to anything if, he used to do all my sewing for me. Darn my socks. And whenever I got any increase in rank or what he’d sew it on. And if you lost anything he would get you another one. He would acquire one from somewhere [laughs] Whether it was a bicycle or, or a gas mask or whatever it was he would get it. ‘Don’t worry about it, skipper. I’ll see to it,’ he’d say. That’s right. But they were really a good bunch of lads. And that was it. I was fully crewed up. But apparently what they did they was, if you read the stories they shoved everybody in a hangar and they had to sort theirselves out. Well, that didn’t work for me. Mine came like I told you and I never had any trouble. And the only thing was you didn’t, you didn’t want your crew flying, flying with anybody else. You just, but they all, one of the snags was one and it’s funny how I, how I got my commission I think because at Ched, I didn’t, from Feltwell LF Lancaster Finishing School we went straight to the squadron which was at Methwold which was in Norfolk. And that was the first time I ever realised they were on ops because prior to then you just wanted to get on the squadron you know. You desperately want to get on the squadron. But when we drove through the gates because it’s only a few miles from Feltwell to Methwold there were ambulances pulled up at the outside. They’d been to, I think to Homberg they’d been to and they were lifting some of the people out and putting them in the ambulances. They’d been shot. They’d had a particularly bad trip and of course I would see it at the time but funnily enough it was strange because after I’d done this, when I’d seen these, all the bomb aimers and got crewed up you went to the bedding store, that was the last place you went to to get your blanket. Well, your three blankets and two sheets. And the fella looked at me and said and must have been when I spoke, he said ‘You’re a Mancunian, aren’t you?’ I said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘So am I.’ He said, ‘Now, don’t worry son,’ he said, ‘I’ve seen hundreds go through here,’ he said, ‘And I can tell you now you’ll be alright.’ You’ll see things through. So I don’t know why he’d sort of gave me and the strangest thing out. I’ve told this story many times. Later on. H came from Blackley. As we called it Blackley as it’s spelled. A lot of people call it Blackley who don’t know Manchester, Blackley and we corresponded with each other for only by Christmas card but for must have been twenty odd years until the Christmas cards stopped and presumably he’d gone. But when I was back in civilian life my wife and I were walking down Cannon Street in Manchester and there was a ladder up against the wall and I was just going, I said to my wife, ‘Don’t walk under the ladder. We’ll walk on the outside,’ were just walking round the outside and then suddenly somebody pushed, pushed us both to one side and a coping stone fell off the roof and crashed right down by the side of us. And I turned around and looked at the, who’d pushed us out the way and who should it be but Wilf Brennan. The fella who had seen me at the, at the station and said I’d be alright. And I thought, well what a coincidence you know. Just, but he must have I mean obviously he was quite a bit older than me. Well, nearly everybody was. So that was that. And then we’d only done one op from, from Methwold when the whole squadron was posted to Chedburgh and I found out it was what they call a GH squadron. Which was mostly daylights because we had, we were fitted with Gee which was, which was a radar scheme to, but it was only, it was only accessible as far as the Ruhr. That’s the farthest distance it had and and I was, the way the aircraft were were differentiated was they had two yellow bars on the fins of the, of the Lancaster. And I used to take off from, from Chedburgh and rendezvous over Ipswich and we would either communicate through the Aldis lamp or with, on the RT for, to give your call sign and they would formate on me. So we’d fly all the way to the target in what we called vics of three. I would be the leader and one on either side and it was formation flying all the way until you dropped your bombs and then, then virtually they were supposed to fly back with you but frankly it was every man for himself after that. Didn’t work. We didn’t do that at night but daylights and the, I mean I did I did twenty two day trips. I only did I think about eleven nights and then a nickel raid and that. I think I did thirty six altogether. But I think the trouble with the night flying was the searchlights because you, with GH the thing was it was only accurate if you flew straight and level for about forty miles going into the target and the navigator used to complain bitterly if you, you went off slightly off course because he’s, he’s sat behind his curtain thing and once or twice we had words because I’d say, ‘Get the bloody hell, get your head out and have a look,’ I said, ‘And you’ll see why I’m diverting a bit.’ ‘Cause as you would know you always say you don’t just say left or right you always say left left and then right to differentiate between the two so he can’t mistake what you’re saying. But you’ve got to be forty miles absolutely straight and level and not deviate so that the thing is accurate. And the trouble is you’re susceptible to fighters on daylights. The FW190 was the one we were worried about. Daylight it was. Night time it was searchlights because we were briefed that the ordinary searchlight wasn’t too bad but then they had what they called the master beam and if that, if that got you in his sights then all the beams came on you. They must have coordinated somehow and you had I think they had, you had, they had sixteen seconds in which to replot the actual position you were in from the time the searchlight, master searchlight got on you. So you had to be quick. But what I developed over the, over the time which wasn’t particularly brave but I used to ask the, I asked the two gunners, the mid-upper and the rear gunner, I said, ‘Look out for another Lancaster or Halifax or Stirling or whatever you can and if you see one let me know.’ And I used to dive over the top of it if I could with the idea being that if the searchlight was following me and if I went over the top of him the light would be on him for a short period of time and then if I was able to get out of the way very quickly hopefully they’d have lost me and be on somebody else. And I for daylights I used to tell the lads, the gunners, I said, ‘If you see what you think is a FW 190 or a Stuka or whatever it is,’ I said, ‘Don’t fire at it in case one of three things. A — he might not have seen us. B — he might have seen us but be like me and want to stay alive so he doesn’t want to get shot down.’ And I said, ‘Those are two things you must take into account because I said there’s no point in drawing attention to yourself,’ you see. And our, my mid-upper gunner was at first on the first three trips were, very first three night trips were very gung ho. He wanted to go down and have a go at the searchlights. But I politely told him I don’t think that’s on. Not in those words. AM: And did you ever have to do a corkscrew at night? Or — CM: No. Yes, I did. On the really shakiest trip I had was I’d gone to a place, well I didn’t get there. I was going to Dessau which is about, I think it’s about a hundred miles southwest of Berlin. And it was a night trip and we were, I was going there and suddenly the port outer had a runaway prop and I tried to feather it and it didn’t feather. And then to my consternation it burst into flames. So I thought, oh shit. What the hell am I going to do? So I, you had in the Lanc you had what they called four graviner buttons. One for each engine. So I pressed the graviner button and it, it didn’t seem to to put the thing out. So I thought oh I’ll have to do something. So I resorted to a manoeuvre I’d learned early on in, in my flying days, sideslipped. So I, I sideslipped it left to try and, I thought one of two things. It would either help to extinguish the flames or else it will increase the, the chance. I don’t know which. But fortunately it went out but the trouble is the prop hadn’t, hadn’t feathered and it was windmilling like the clappers. And obviously immediately I lost, I started to lose height because I was at, I’d started at twenty, about twenty one thousand feet and it just started to drop like a stone so I said to, to Bob, or Dick as he was, I said, ‘Just jettison.’ So he jettisoned and that sort of arrested the fall for a bit but I didn’t regain control until about I must have been about nine thousand feet and I said, we had piles of Window stacked in the back which we were supposed to shovel out. So I, I got the boys shovelling this stuff out as fast as they could. And I’ve read many books since where what we thought we was, was helping to jam their, their radar, in point of fact was doing just the opposite. They were, it was helping them more than not. So then I was, said to Titch, ‘Well, just give me a course as far as you can. As near as you can to, to get to base.’ I said, ‘But you’re better not to go in to base because I haven’t got any hydraulics. So you’d better go in to Woodbridge,’ which was the nearest. There was Woodbridge, Manston or Carnaby were the three emergency. But I don’t have to describe those to you. You know what they are. Three runways of different calibres. So there was a battle line and then the bomb line and they’re two different lines because you had to be sure you were over the bomb line before you dropped any bombs because of your own troops being in the way. Anyway, Titch said to me, ‘You’re alright now, Skip. You’re over the, over the sea. You can let down.’ Because I was over nine thousand feet and I was struggling to, to hold the thing because as you can see I’m only five foot and my, I’d got as maximum trim as I could on but it was still a struggle for me. So he said, ‘Ok, you let down now.’ Well, when I came out of the cloud instead of being over the sea I was met by a load of tracer and very heavy anti-aircraft fire. So I, I did a corkscrew as you say which was not, it’s not very pleasant for the crew. Not very pleasant for me. But it seemed to, seemed to do the trick and we sailed on over the North Sea and then, then I don’t know whether what aircraft there are now, whether they [unclear] but on the Lanc you had what they called a star wheel which is the trimmer which, which altered the trim. A little piece of strip on the back of the elevators to, to for fine tuning and I’d got it obviously full, full on for, for, from my left leg. And I had on, because it was cold as well because the boys, actually you were you were given Kapok suits first and then, then on top of the Kapok which is like a thermal material. It’s called Kapok in those days. Then you had, you had your underwear first. Your silk underwear. And then your Kapok suit and then like a gabardine suit. This is what you had on your what they called you flying kit. But as far as I was concerned certainly my crew and every other crew I’d know didn’t, didn’t wear that stuff. The gunners. AM: Yeah. CM: Actually, especially the rear gunner they wore electrically heated suit. A bottom and a top which the boys said didn’t always work. Either the top of it or the bottom worked. But we just wore our thermal underwear, well not, it wasn’t thermal then. It was silk worn in two layers. And then your ordinary battledress with a fisherman’s, what I called a fisherman’s sweater and fisherman’s socks and then, then your escape boots which which had a little section in the side where you could put a, which was a pseudo strip of Wrigleys chewing gum. A long strip but it contained a hacksaw blade. And I had every single button on my uniform was a compass. If you took the top off the button then there was a little like pin on it and you could put it on the top of the thing and there was a little yellow dash which pointed to north. That was on every button. And I also had, because I was friendly with the, one of the intelligence officers and I had the cigarettes, not a tobacco pouch which you broke open the lining and it had a silk map of Europe with Spain and so on. And I had pipes that either unscrewed and there was a compass inside one end of the pipe or pencils that you could break and there was a compass inside that. I said, ‘If the Jerry’s ever get me I’ll run a [unclear] over the stuff’ [laughs], but I had every, every aid there was and our plan was, which wasn’t very good, Titch, the navigator had done a little German at school so we were all too, if we were to bale out we were to all get together which is being possibly impossible anyway and he would be able to talk his way out. He’d be able to talk his way out. I don’t think he would. AM: Yeah. CM: But that was the plan. So, as I say we, we had all this so coming in to land obviously as you start to throttle back then you have to take the trim off. But with three gloves on I got my fingers stuck in the bloody star wheel see. So I’m sweating cobs that I’ve got to get my hand out of this so I could get both hands on the stick. And anyway we got in alright and just ran to the end. And I’d, you were issued with what we called wakey-wakey tablets which were Benzedrine, I understand. And I never used them. The boys used them a lot for forty eight hour leaves. They used to use them and then they could stay awake all night and you know get pissed as a rat and stay in London or whatever. But I never used them but this time I thought well I’d better take these wakey-wakey tablets because it was, it’s a long way back from, from Dessau to, to base. And it must have been about four hours I think. I know it was a long way. So I’d taken these bloody tablets and the affect it had on me. That was the only time I ever used them but you sort of wanted to go to sleep but you couldn’t. And you had to go into the Watch Office first and sign your name on something. I said, ‘I’m afraid I can’t. I can’t sign anything.’ I didn’t, I just didn’t couldn’t do. I don’t know why. I just couldn’t write. Anyway, I went in and it seemed to be alright. And that’s, that’s the worst trip I’d, I’d had. I’d had one or two bits of scrapes but that was that was the one that was the worst one for me. And — AM: What about the losses on the squadron? Did it affect the crew or you? CM: Well, no. What happened is, you didn’t. They were, we used to refer to it as getting the chop and what happened when there were no number thirteens on anything. On the lockers or anything. And if, if a crew got the chop, if you were all, I don’t know how many of us there were in the nissen hut but there wasn’t just our crew. There was another crew. Or at least one crew and if they got the chop they didn’t fill those beds until another intake came in. And the, I don’t know whether he thought it was the right word but the, the normal way of things was if there was a girl on the station who’d gone with somebody let’s say a pilot from another crew and had got the chop she became a chop girl. So that was taboo. You didn’t, you didn’t go out with her at all. And there was one poor girl I, I know. This was on Wellingtons. Not not before I got on Lancs but she had lost. This had happened to her twice and so she said, ‘I’m not going out with anymore aircrew fellas.’ And she went out with a ground staff sergeant and he walked into a pillar. I mean, and superstitions were absolutely rife. I mean my, my crew Dick always wore a pair of his wife’s cami knickers as they called them in those days. Which was like coms, but with, with three little buttons which fastened on the crotch. And he always wore those. And his wife Mary because he was the only one married in the crew and she travelled with him wherever she, wherever we went and played the piano which was good. So she was, you know friendly with every one of us. Well, she gave me a scarf. It was a paisley scarf. A lovely one. And Dick came to my home sometimes when, when we were on leave and more often than not I came up to Blyth because it was a better atmosphere. And so I’d ask my mother to wash this scarf which of course it got dirty after, you know. So she said, ‘I haven’t seen this before. Whose is it?’ I said, ‘That’s Mary’s.’ So, she said, ‘That’s, that’s Dick’s wife isn’t it?’ I said, ‘Yeah.’ She said, ‘You’ve no right to be wearing some other man’s wife thing.’ I mean that’s my mother all over. So I said, ‘Well, I do and that’s it. So if you don’t mind just wash the bloody thing.’ Well, that was him. Now, my, my flight engineer always wore a white towelling shirt. And he never washed it. But he always wore a white towelling shirt. And my mid-upper gunner always carried a kukri in his flying boot. You know a big kukri. And I think it was the, I think he was the rear gunner who had a rabbit’s foot. And you found, I don’t know whether it was just coincidence or what but one of the fellas, fella I remember his name, Marley because he had a Riley car as well. A Riley sports car. He went and he lost his life on take-off on one operation and they found his rabbit’s foot in his locker and they said, ‘There you are,’ you see, they said, ‘He didn’t bloody well take it.’ Well, we also had a stuffed cat. Which was not a real cat but it was a stuffed cat called the Mini the Moocher and we always had it tied to the, the stem of the loop aerial. In the Lancaster there’s a little bubble behind the pilot’s cockpit where the loop stands. And Mini the Moocher was strapped to that. And when you used to take off you’d come along the peritrack, all lined up taxiing and then they’d signal you to go on to the runway and you’d sit on the end of the runway and there was the dispatcher’s hut and they would shine an Aldis lamp with a green for you to go. And always at the side of the runway there would be the padre, and the CO, and possibly two or three WAAFs and maybe one or two of the ground crew. And you would sit there until you got the green and then you’d open the tap and off you’d go. Well, one day we had, we’d forgotten Mini the Moocher and suddenly one of the ground staff came peddling up like the clappers and waved to us and stopped so we could, we could have Mini the Moocher and strap it to the thing. Yeah. They were very superstitious. But you do. I mean when you think about it now it didn’t make the slightest difference but it did in your mind, you know. So that was that so — AM: You mentioned going home to see your mother when you went home to Manchester. CM: Yeah. AM: During the war. CM: Yeah. AM: What was it like for you? An operational pilot. CM: Well, my mother didn’t know I was on ops. Only the boy I told you about John, John Fowkes the Welsh boy who’d been with me, who’d been with me throughout. He had joined the Air Force and he was in Bomber Command but he was actually at, at Mildenhall which was only a few miles from Chedburgh and he, he used to come over and see me. Well, his parents were greengrocers. Nearly all my friends when I was at school were the son of street corner something or other. Greengrocers or chip shop or butchers or whatever so, and he was on ops and he was before me. I didn’t know this but he was on a squadron and his mother had met my mother on some occasion and she told him. Oh yeah. ‘I see your Charles is doing the same as John.’ Well, she didn’t know see. So the next time I came on leave she gave me a pile of stamped postcards all ready to post. And she said, ‘Now, we hear on the radio,’ she said, which they did. They’d say ‘Last night our aircraft bombed — ’ whatever. Frankfurt. And so many of our aircraft of are missing or they all returned safely or whatever happened. Or Lord Haw Haw would tell them. So she gave me all these cards and she said, ‘Now, post them to me as soon as you get back so I know you’re alright.’ So I said, ‘Ok.’ So what I used to do is I used to tell her I was safe and that before I went and posted it, you see so she didn’t worry about anything. And if I wasn’t, I wasn’t so that’s [pause] But the first time as I say she’d ever heard from me for all the months before was that card she had from the Jewish lady in New York. So she didn’t know. But what we used to do is when we came up to Blyth which they were much, beer was, was rationed completely and Mary was also loved by everybody because she could play the piano see. So she came because she was with Bob, Dick and she would, she would play the piano and we’d sing. Have a sing song. And when, when we came to Blyth the one song that we all used to stand in a circle and we’d sing was, “With someone like you,” altogether, “A pal good and true, I’d like to leave it all behind.” You know the song. And I introduced the same thing at home so we all had a, had that song and a bit of a, possibly a bit of a weep together like I’m doing now and but there was songs seemed to have a, you know a special something about them. AM: Resonance. CM: But that’s, that’s how it was and — AM: Tell me about the day the war ended. CM: Well, we were on [pause] what happened when, I finished early on in April. The war finished in April, May. VE day was promulgated I think on the 8th of May. But we finished in April. I forget what date it was now. I’ve got it here somewhere. I did, I did my last op on [pause] this incidentally I don’t think. You can have a look at it. This is when I came back from any of the ops there was always a cutting, or not always, generally a cutting in the newspaper. Like this stop press news, “Our bombers new route. Daily Sketch correspondent. People in the north east saw for the first time last night something which the south has seen many times before. The organised might of Bomber Command proceeding on a mission. The concentration of aircraft was the biggest ever seen over the north east.” And this was Kiel. AM: God. CM: We sank the, and I used to write, I used to write what I’d thought about the trip. And they used to put the bomb load in. The one five hundred medium capacity. “Another master bomber effort and very impressive. A good way out at two thousand feet. Really good. The target itself was beautifully marked and though the flak was intense it was well below our height. Searchlight gave us persistently little trouble. I’m pretty sure it was a grand prang.” That’s the word we used. “The only thing that marred the trip was the long delay in getting us down.” And then this was where we sank the, the I think that was the Admiral Scheer. AM: The Admiral Scheer. CM: Yeah. So that’s, that’s I’ve got a record there of every trip I did so that it starts right at the very front page with the details of the Lancaster. I don’t know whether you’ve — [recording paused] AM: What did you do after the war, Charles? CM: Well, as I said to you at the beginning after the war when I was on the Berlin Airlift they had, they had a, they had a lot of small aircraft. Freddie Laker had some of his aircraft and Blackburn Aircraft Corporation had a lot of aircraft and they were I don’t know how it I was seconded or whatever to help the war. To help the Berlin Airlift. And I met a pilot. We were actually talking over the intercom and he recognised my voice and I spoke to him and I met him at, we used to go to a place called Bad Nenndorf for r&r because the, it was quite a strain on the Airlift because we were flying twenty four hours a day seven days a week and we didn’t, we didn’t always get back to the billets to go to sleep. You slept in the watch office. So you had to go to a place for a bit of rest. And we often used to meet up there and I met with a bloke called Takoradi Taylor who was called Takoradi Taylor because he’d been in Takoradi before the war with the Air Force and he, I’ll show you later on. But I used to play a lot of golf when I first retired and we were playing at Haydock one day. We had, with the veterans you went to different, different Golf Clubs to play in the Veteran’s Association and I walked out on the tee and there was this fella with, and there was this bag he’d got and he looked as if it was made of sort of snakeskin and I said, ‘That’s a wonderful bag.’ So he said, ‘Yes,’ he said, ‘My brother got it for me,’ he said, ‘From Takoradi.’ So I said, ‘Oh, that’s a name that rings a cord,’ I said, ‘I knew a bloke on the Berlin Airlift. Takoradi Taylor,’ I said, ‘But unfortunately,’ I said, and he, I said, ‘That’s the first time I’ve heard that word Takoradi for a long time,’ I said, ‘But unfortunately,’ I said, ‘He flew for a firm called Flight Refuelling,’ which was one of Cobham’s people. And I said, ‘Unfortunately, they were,’ I said, ‘He was a friend of mine and I last met him at Bad Nenndorf and he recognised me from, we were at OTUs together. At Operational training Unit.’ So, I said, ‘I hadn’t seen him from that day,’ I said, ‘And I met him at Bad Nenndorf and I said, I said to him, ‘Well, we must have a drink together.’ So he said, ‘Yes, so he said I’m flying back now with the boys,’ he said, ‘All the, all the pilots from Flight Refuelling are flying home to Tarrant Rushton,’ which is near Southampton, he said and, ‘That’s where, where I’m going for my rest. But when I get back I’ll give you a buzz and we’ll get together.’ And I said, ‘Fine.’ Well, apparently the whole of them. All the pilots flew into a problem at Tarrant Rushton. Whether they flew straight into the ground or what but they were all killed. And so we never did get together but I told, we had a magazine at the Golf Club and I told them this story which went in, you know. So that was that. But what I’m saying is when we were talking over the intercom and I talked to this fella called Des Martin who lived on the Wirral and afterwards we got together. He’d been at Clewiston with me on 5 BFTS. So he was flying for Blackburn Aircraft Corporation and he said, and he said he was getting a hundred and twenty pounds a week, you see. Well, I was a flight lieutenant in the Air Force. I was getting sixty pounds a month. So he said, ‘Well, you’re stupid to stay,’ he said, ‘You’re doing the same bloody job.’ He said, ‘Just apply for your, you’ve just to apply to them and,’ he said, ‘You’ve got all the qualifications. You’ve been flying the route for God knows how long,’ he said. ‘You’ll have no trouble,’ So I did but they said, ‘Well, what you need is a course at Tarrant err at Hamble. Well, by the time I got my compassionate release because I told you Margie was ill the course had finished. And you had to have a hundred and twenty hours on type which I couldn’t afford you see. So instead of going to fly, I hadn’t decided to emigrate then I thought well I’ll see what they have to offer me. I’d worked before. I’d worked for a firm call Lec Transport and I was happy but it was only a mediocre job. So I went to what they called the Appointments Bureau which was supposedly for officers. Like the Employment Exchange but a bit of higher up. He said, Mr Green was the fellas name, so he said, ‘What’s your name?’ So I said. He said, ‘Well, you’ve got a good war record son,’ because he had my details, he said, ‘But the war’s over.’ I mean, I knew that. So, he said, ‘And what I can offer you, I can, I can fix you up with a job down the mines or, or I can fix you up with, with you can go into a cotton mill.’ So, I said, ‘I’ll find my own job.’ So my brother had, he was in, he worked for Milner’s Safe Company and he had been selling steel furniture which Milner’s sold to different firms in Manchester. And one of the firms was an office equipment company which had furniture and adding machines and calculators and typewriters. So he said well, ‘I’m sure he’d give you a job.’ So, so I I went to see him and he said, ‘Have you got a briefcase?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ So he said, ‘Well, I’ll show you what these machines are. Typewriters and so on. He gave me a little bit of instruction on how to use them and he gave me a load of leaflets. He said, ‘Well, just go out and sell some of these.’ Well, cutting a story short I did that for about, I don’t know, maybe twelve months. Hated it because well after being an officer and being used to eating off linen and all nice things it was a shock to, to come to what was reality. And anyway I, I stuck at it and eventually became the sales manager and then I became the general manager and then he was the director of the company and then he made me a director as well. And then I’d, we had a fall out which I don’t need to go into but it was, it was a case of misinformation in various areas. And I’d met a fellow who was in a similar line of business. He had a stationer’s shop in amongst other things in Liverpool and he’d always said, ‘If you ever think of changing your job give me a bell.’ We got on well together. So I did and I started work with him and they were [pause] he didn’t want me for stationery. He wanted me for a new branch of his firm which was called Industrial Stapling and Packaging. So I eventually got to be the admin manager of this company and we were taken over by a firm called Ofrex who manufacture stapling machines and tackers and all sorts of different machines. And when they took us over they also had a stapling machine called, stapling company called IS & P Industrial Stapling and Packaging which was based in Aylesbury. So the head of the company, the director and the only director of the company said it was silly having two companies. One in Liverpool and one in Aylesbury. So he decided to merge the two into two called British Industrial Fastenings. And he took the whole thing down to Aylesbury. So, they, they obviously wanted me to go to Aylesbury. Well, I had a word with the managing director of the company down in Aylesbury and he wouldn’t meet my terms. I said to him, ‘I, first of all I want a house equivalent of the bungalow I’ve got here. And I want pay equivalent to the sales manager’s because,’ I said, ‘I’m the manager of the whole of the thing.’ Anyway, he wouldn’t meet my requirements so I said, ‘Alright. Well, I’m not coming.’ So I saw my boss back in Liverpool and he said, ‘Well, don’t worry Charles.’ Now, we’d started to buy some machinery and some strapping which was plastic strapping from a company in America. So he said, ‘Get your ass over to America and learn all you can about all the machines and how they make the strap and everything and then come back and see what you can do here.’ So I went over there for about three weeks and I had to learn about all the different machines and how they made this what was then polypropylene strapping. And cutting up a long story short I, I took a twenty year lease on a building which belonged to the Coal Board in, in, in Ellesmere Port on the other side, on the Wirral. And I arranged for the, for the factory, the extruder and the drawer stands and all the rest of it and we set up this company called, we just called it Laughton’s [unclear] Strap. That’s the name of the strap the Americans were making. AM: Right. CM: But we started. I said, ‘Well, we won’t make money being the last in line. We have to manufacture the straps.’ So we bought these extruders and we bought all this stuff and I had to take a twenty year lease out on this place in Ellesmere Port. But anyway we set it up. Within, within twelve months we were, we had a turnover just over a million quid. And it went from strength to strength and we eventually we then were taken over by Gallagher’s which not only had tobacco companies like Benson and Hedges and so on. They also had, they owned Dolland and Aitchison, the opticians. They owned Prestige Pans and a lot of other companies. But they in turn were taken over by the fourth largest tobacco company in the world called American Brands who then got themselves into litigation about cancer. So they decided, this was after I’d retired. I retired in ’86, but after I’d retired they decided they weren’t going to get into this litigation about cancer so they sold everything back to Galla. Well not, they sold it to Gallagher’s. And Gallagher’s and American Brands not only owned the tobacco side which was Lucky Strike and God knows what. They also owned Pinkerton’s, the security people, they also owned Titelist Golf Balls they also owned Jim Beam Whisky. And what they did is they sold all their tobacco business to Gallagher’s and Gallagher’s sold all their stuff off to, back to American Brands and, and everything but so then American Brands to divest themselves of all the tobacco stuff and they sold out to a firm called Acco Europe. Which is probably one of the biggest firms. They first of all started out in what I call continuous stationery which is if you look at machines going it prints all sorts of loads of different stationery. So that’s who the company belongs to. But Laughton’s was a business on its own which didn’t fit in to anything so it’s now gone kapput. It no longer exists. AM: Right. CM: So, but that’s the way it was. But I, I was appointed to the board on that company as well because I had a number of quite good ideas. One of which has come to fruition but not with me. But I, I dreamt up the idea of a thing called, ‘Call and Collect.’ Which was people phoned up the company, and on the phone with our computers which I’d put in. Then you keyed in what they wanted. You had to have a code and all that which was very different from these days when everything’s [unclear] and I bought a place next door which had a big door at one end and a big door at the other end. I had different stalls put up and we put a lot of our stock which was the main big seller down in this, this warehouse. And the idea was for people to phone up. This would be processed and they would be picked by people and then the car from the company would drive in one end, load it up and drive out the other. But it didn’t take off at all. But this Click and Collect at Tescos and God knows where. AM: Yeah. CM: But it just didn’t work. AM: Did you, after the war Charles keep in touch with any of your crew members? CM: Bob, or Dick. Yes. I did. We used to, they used to come and stop at my house and I used to go up to Blyth and stay with them. We, we stayed together for right until Bob died. He’d be about seventy one or seventy two. AM: Right. CM: And then Mary, his wife died. And I still, I still keep in touch with their daughter. And one of the boys I was with at ITW, Initial Training Wing, the one who I told you how I met the wife when she was dancing around. Well, I kept in touch with the daughter for quite a years when they didn’t know he was killed or what. He was just missing. So I kept in touch with her. She died and her husband saw some of the correspondence so he asked if he could keep in touch with me. He still keeps, well he stayed in touch with me until he died. And then his daughter found this correspondence so she’s still in correspondence with me today. And my sister who I told you he thought the world of she always puts a cross on in the arrangements for us in the Arboretum in Staffordshire somewhere. Yeah. So I do. My, my other crew. My Bomber Command crew I kept in touch with them until they, they all passed, so there’s no — as far as I know my mid-upper gunner went as a tea planter in Ceylon and I lost touch with him. And the flight engineer. I wrote to him. He’s from Glasgow. I had a couple or three letters from him and then that died off. And Freddie Collins, the wireless op I’ve never heard or seen anything from, from the day we went on break up leave. And my navigator I told you got killed on his first trip. So that accounts for the crew and the, the other crew that I kept in touch with was the York crew. But they’re dead now so I don’t keep it going. I can’t keep in touch with them. So, there’s, there’s virtually nobody left. AM: So is there anything else that you’d like to tell me of your time in Bomber Command? CM: No. I don’t think so. As far as, as far as I know. I mean if there’s anything you think of and I’ll try and tell you. I mean all I can say to you that it was a traumatic time but at the same time I made friends that I, I was, I’d been never been closer to anybody in my life. Just one of those things and, and it taught me an awful lot. The Air Force really [pause] the Air Force in general, it made me feel that I want something better out of life than I was, was having. And I mean the very fact that I got commissioned was, was quite an uplift for me really. I never, I mean I never dreamed that I was ever that, I was never university type. But at the same time it also taught me that as far as I can tell I’m good at what I do. And I’ve been fortunate in that the two private companies I worked for were individuals who were able to, there must be many many people who are working for firms that just either it’s so remote that they don’t see anybody. But these two fellas were, they owned the company. And like there’s one guy now phones me, has phoned me religiously every month since I’ve known him. Forty odd years. And he has a, he has a, he owns a huge paint factory. Got factories all over the world and a multi-millionaire. But he phoned me only a few days ago just to see how I was. And never, never fails. And he said, ‘We’ve been friends for so long,’ and he, he hasn’t got a ha’pence of side on him at all. I mean, you wouldn’t know. I mean when, when I took him out for a meal at Formby we just went to an ordinary meal place and he said, which I can hear him saying, he was a real Lancashire lad, he said, ‘Anybody having pudding?’ I mean and they all seemed, and given the chance I’m pretty certain whatever I’d have done I’ve made a success of it. AM: Yeah. CM: It’s just worked out that way. And I’ve been, I’ve said in all my papers I have been very, very lucky. I had a, had a wonderful childhood. And I can truthfully say I never had a day when I got up and said, ‘I don’t want to go to work today.’ I’ve always been happy in what I’m doing. And I think it’s, it reflects really what you are and to the people that you meet you know. And even all the girls who come. The carers. I get on like a house on fire with them. I mean. And I say to them, which is true I don’t know how anybody can criticise the — [recording paused] AM: Charles Mears. Flight Lieutenant Charles Mears, Distinguished Flying Cross, thank you. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charles Mears Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alastair Montgomery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMearsCE170921 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 02:12:50 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Description An account of the resource Charles left school with no formal qualifications and was undertaking further education when the Second World War commenced. Being too young to enlist, he joined the Air Defence Cadet Corps, eventually joining when he was aged 18. He was detached to the United States for training. Upon boarding the Queen Mary, he was aware of damage to the ship's bow which had been repaired with concrete. Training was carried out at No. 5 British Flying Training School in Florida. Mixing with Americans, he experienced some of their cultures, including discrimination: having given his seat on a bus to a pregnant black lady, he was interviewed and told that being a guest of America, he must respect the American way of life. Upon return to the UK, he was posted to RAF Fraserburgh to convert onto Oxfords, followed by anti-surface vessel training which involved flying trainee wireless operators over the Irish Sea. After several months, Charles was posted to the Wellington Operational Training Unit at RAF Desborough. Whilst there, he was involved in a leaflet drop over Brest. Following conversion to Lancasters, Charles was posted to a squadron operating Gee H radar, undertaking, mainly, daylight operations. On these sorties, it was necessary to fly straight and level for 40 miles to the target, which led to many arguments between him and his navigator. At RAF Methwold he saw a row of ambulances taking injured aircrew away, after a particularly bad operation. On one occasion he had to make an emergency landing at Woodbridge. He was told by the navigator he was over the sea and since he was struggling to control the aircraft he dropped below the cloud straight into a barrage of anti-aircraft fire. He performed a corkscrew manoeuvre and managed to get out of trouble and successfully land at Woodbridge. On the only occasion he took the wakey-wakey pills he found them so disorientating he couldn’t even sign off the aircraft on landing and although he desperately wanted to sleep he just could not. Superstition was rife amongst the crews. He describes his experience as traumatic but worthwhile. He met so many friends that he has remained in contact with throughout his life. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ian Whapplington Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. United States Florida Great Britain England--Northamptonshire Scotland--Aberdeenshire France France--Brest Atlantic Ocean--Irish Sea England--Norfolk England--Suffolk Atlantic Ocean--Irish Sea Temporal Coverage Temporal characteristics of the resource. 1941 1942 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Pending revision of OH transcription 218 Squadron 5 BFTS African heritage aircrew bombing British Flying Training School Program crewing up Gee ground personnel Heavy Conversion Unit Lancaster military ethos navigator Oxford padre pilot propaganda RAF Chedburgh RAF Desborough RAF Feltwell RAF Fraserburgh RAF Methwold RAF Shepherds Grove RAF Woodbridge searchlight superstition training Wellington Women’s Auxiliary Air Force https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/975/11296/PMacIntoshD1501.jpg d4139b0ba70a29563d2e00741335bb71 https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/files/original/975/11296/PMacintoshD1701.jpg aa4e1956aa46ea8d7055920193709d30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource MacIntosh, Donald D MacIntosh Description An account of the resource An oral history interview with Donald MacIntosh DFC (1922 - 2019, Royal Air Force). The collection has been loaned to the IBCC Digital Archive for digitisation by Donald MacIntosh and catalogued by IBCC Digital Archive staff. In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the International Bomber Command Centre / University of Lincoln. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2015-09-27 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context MacIntosh, D Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Donald MacIntosh Description An account of the resource Don MacIntosh was working as a policeman until he volunteered for the RAF. This was a Reserved Occupation and volunteering for aircrew was the only option available to him. He was posted to 9 Squadron at RAF Bardney and took part of the raid on the Tirpitz. After the war he continued flying in the civilian industry. In accordance with the conditions stipulated by the donor, this item is available only at the University of Lincoln. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alastair Montgomery Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available IBCC Digital Archive Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-09-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal. Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AMacIntoshD170901, PMacIntoshD1501 Conforms To An established standard to which the described resource conforms. Pending review Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 00:32:57 audio recording Language A language of the resource eng Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Royal Air Force Royal Air Force. Bomber Command Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Great Britain Norway Russia (Federation) England--Lincolnshire Russia (Federation)--Yagodnik Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Julie Williams Maureen Clarke Requires A related resource that is required by the described resource to support its function, delivery, or coherence. AM: This interview is being conducted for the International Bomber Command Centre in Lincoln. The interviewer is Alistair Montgomery, Monty, and the interviewee is Captain Don MacIntosh, Distinguished Flying Cross. The interview is taking place at Captain MacIntosh’s home in Crieff, Perthshire and his daughter, Alison is present. Don, good morning. DM: Good morning. AM: Tell me just a little bit about your family background and where you lived prior to joining the Royal Air Force. DM: Oh yeah. I lived and was brought up in Clydebank and I was a police cadet and then became a policeman for a short time. Yeah. AM: Right. And were any of your family in the services? DM: Well, mainly all in the police actually. AM: Right. So having been in the police which I think was a — DM: Reserved Occupation. AM: Exactly. Why did you choose to join the Royal Air Force? DM: Because that was the only one I could go to actually. It was the only place I could go actually because it was a Reserved Occupation. AM: Right. And just tell me a little bit about your training as a, as a pilot and some of the more memorable aspects of it. DM: How do you mean? I’m not quite clear. AM: Well, first of all when you actually joined up where did you go and how was the cycle of training? DM: Oh yeah. I went to ACRC which was a aircrew recruiting place in Lords. In Lords in London. Yeah. AM: And where, where did you commence your flying training? DM: Ah yeah. Well, I did about nine hours in Fairoaks and then the rest was done in Florida. AM: Right. And what aeroplane was that on? DM: Pardon? AM: Which aeroplane was that on? DM: Harvard. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So tell me a wee bit about the Harvard then. DM: It was very nice to fly actually. Yeah. What was it? A single engine of course and had retractable gear. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: And from the Harvard where did you go? DM: From a Harvard then I eventually went on to Blenheims. AM: And where was that? DM: At a place called Snetterton. AM: Right. Right. You’d better tell us where Snetterton is. DM: It’s in the Midlands. AM: Right. Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So that was your first experience of multi engine aircraft. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Yeah. So tell me a little bit about flying that. DM: How do you mean? AM: What was it like to fly? DM: Well, it was pretty good actually. Yeah. A little on the heavy side but otherwise ok. AM: And what age were you at that point? DM: Twenty one. AM: Right. Gosh. DM: Pardon? AM: And was that where you, you met up with your crew or — DM: Oh no. No. It was much later. AM: Right. So tell me about the, a little bit about the crewing up process. DM: Ah yeah. That’s right. I was left without anyone. I was a bit worried they were going to give me someone and then when I was having a, having breakfast I saw a chap came in with N here you see. And that was Nigel and I immediately, I didn’t tell him, I put him on my crew and he was very very good indeed actually. AM: Right. DM: First class. AM: So he was the first person you knew you crewed up with. DM: Yeah. AM: The navigator. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: And did you stay with him throughout your wartime? DM: Oh yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. And what about the rest of the crew? It doesn’t matter about names but just how you came together. DM: I’m not quite sure now. Other: Phil Tetlow. That’s one dad. DM: Oh yeah. Yeah. Other: Radio officer. DM: That’s right. Other: Hold on dad. I’ll get you a photograph and that will give you a — DM: I’m not quite sure. Other: Here we are dad. AM: We’ll just pause till we get them. [recording paused] AM: Just how you teamed up as a, as a crew and what that experience was like and — DM: Oh yeah. I was a bit worried at first actually I’d be given sort of left overs but then I saw Nigel with this N here and without telling him I got him put in my crew and he was absolutely first class. Probably wouldn’t have got through without him actually. Yeah. AM: Yeah. Well, that’s a great thing to say about somebody. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: And once you were crewed up. DM: Yeah. AM: Apart from odd occasions did you fly with the same crew? DM: Oh yeah. Yeah. AM: For the rest of the war. DM: Yeah. That was a wartime, a wartime thing because you could do it in peacetime because you know there was going on holiday and all the rest of it. AM: Sure. DM: But because it was more, more efficient for you. For you and the rest of the crew you all flew together throughout the war. Yeah. AM: Right. So you crewed up at the OTU. Is that correct? DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: And then you went to 9 Squadron. DM: Yeah. AM: And where was that? DM: At Bardney. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Tell me a wee bit about what it was like arriving on your very first squadron as a young twenty year old. DM: Yeah. I was a bit, I was a bit overwhelmed but they were very sort of reasonable to me and took me in very quickly and I felt very much at home and, yeah. AM: And what rank were you then? DM: Flying officer. AM: Right. DM: F4. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So were all the crew officers or were you the only officer? DM: To begin with I was the only officer but then later on Nigel got his commission and then I think Pete [Rammell] got his as well. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So how many sorties did you fly on the squadron before you went operational? How many training sorties did you do? DM: About three or four. AM: Right. And what did they consist of? DM: Usually flying, flying across Land’s End and then across to the, to the French coast and back again. AM: Right. And was this daytime or at night? DM: Daytime. AM: Right. And how did you feel in these early sorties? DM: I was very pleased actually. I’d got what I wanted to do. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. And had the crew readily accepted you as their boss? They knew that from the beginning. DM: Oh yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. Tell me a bit about your very first operational mission if you can recall it. DM: Let me think now. What [pause] Oh that was to Saint Cyr in France actually. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: And that was a bombing sortie? That was a bombing sortie? DM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was the German held, it had been a military academy and the Germans took it over there and it became the centre for, it became a centre there for, for the rest of Germany. AM: Right. Right. So that was your first sortie. DM: Yeah. AM: I noticed from your book that you did quite a lot of daytime sorties as well. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: How did you find the difference in these sorties? Between day sorties and night sorties? DM: Well, day sorties you had to watch out actually because there was a lot of German fighters around. You to watch out. Yeah. AM: And obviously, I say obviously but on night sorties people comment on the, on the aspects of seeing flak. DM: Yeah. AM: What was it like the first time you went over Germany and saw flak? DM: One of the things I did see was a Lancaster, all engines afire about two or three miles away. Going straight down like that. AM: Oh my goodness. DM: That made you, made me sharpen up a bit. AM: And what did the rest of your crew say when you — DM: They didn’t say anything. AM: They didn’t say anything. Right. And, and did you see that regularly or — DM: Oh yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. Today a lot of people talk about losses being due to the upward firing — DM: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. AM: The Schräge musik. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Did you know about that then? DM: Oh yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. Yeah, that why I used to do a banking search and do that about every two minutes to make sure they hadn’t snuck underneath me. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. So that was purely to prevent fighters coming underneath you or to make sure you could find them. DM: Make sure they weren’t underneath us. Sneaking underneath you. AM: Right. So, I know that the escape manoeuvre was called a corkscrew. DM: Oh yeah. AM: Did you ever have to do that in anger? DM: All the time. AM: Right. So tell me a little bit about it. DM: Yeah. We were flying along there and the rear gunner said, ‘Corkscrew. Port.’ You see. And you’d go down like that. Pick up a lot of speed and down, a bit more speed and then you were up to about three or four hundred knots and came up like that. Then on again. AM: Right. Other: Very impressive looking, isn’t it? AM: Well, in your case it clearly worked every time. Other: Yeah. DM: Yeah. AM: But it must have been daunting for the rest of the crew. DM: Well, I think they were quite happy we were doing it actually. AM: Yeah. And what about the tail gunner for him probably had the best view of all of this? DM: Yeah. Well, he just used to give us a lot of instructions. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. So, after a night sortie over Germany — DM: Yeah. AM: When you came back to Bardney just tell me sort of what happened after you landed. DM: Well, if you’d been across there you were entitled to one egg. AM: Right. DM: Which was a big deal in those days actually. Yeah. Now, let me think. Say again now. AM: When you landed — DM: Yeah. AM: Presumably you got a debrief of some kind. DM: Yeah. Yeah, there was a WAAF actually used to debrief us there and [pause] yeah. AM: And what, can you remember what sort of things she would ask about the targets or — DM: I’m not sure now. I’m not sure about that. AM: That’s alright. DM: Yeah. AM: We can come back to it. When in the debrief were you aware, presumably you were aware of the losses to other crews. How did that affect you and your own crew when people, other crews on 9 Squadron didn’t come back? DM: Well, it was just one feeling actually. We were bloody glad it was, it was them and not us. AM: Right. Did you share accommodation with other crews? DM: Well, officers, when I became an officer after a while they made all the pilots of four engine aircraft became, became officers. AM: Right. DM: And in fact, the rank I was a pilot officer then. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. So did, did you share a hut as a crew or did you share with other crews? DM: With other, eventually with other officers. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. So what was the, the atmosphere like in the officer’s mess at Bardney? DM: From what point of view? AM: Well, social really. DM: It was very very good indeed you know. Knocking back the pints. AM: Yeah. DM: Yeah. AM: And did you leave the base a lot to go out to Lincoln or local pubs? DM: When we could actually. There was always a question of transport. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. So you didn’t have a car then? DM: Not many people had a car. No. AM: Yeah. Yeah. DM: Yeah. AM: So tell me something about the, the frequency of sorties. The sort of gap between one mission and then the next mission. DM: Well, sometimes on one occasion they did four on a trot. AM: Right. Four nights on the trot. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. And how did that feel? DM: Got a bit tiring actually. AM: I bet it was. Now, you’ve played a key part in the, in the raids on the Tirpitz. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Tell me a little about each of them if you could including your trip to Russia. DM: Oh yeah. Let me think now. That’s right. We flew towards, towards Archangel there and we were running short of fuel and I was just about to put it down and I saw, saw the other Lancaster around so very quickly ran and landed and got to the end and lined up with the rest of them. AM: Right. And was that on a proper airfield? DM: It was, no it was a grass island on [unclear] AM: Right. Other: Tell the story about the guy with the gun dad. DM: The what? Other: The story about the guy with the — [recording paused] DM: As soon as we landed opened the door and the, a chap in charge said, ‘Don’t move because they have orders to shoot you if you move.’ So — AM: Good grief. DM: They were a bit keen that way. AM: So how long did that stand off last for? DM: How do you mean? AM: Well, how, how long were you faced up with this chap with the gun? DM: Oh. Just a couple of minutes. AM: Right. Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So you flew a mission from Archangel. DM: Yeah. AM: Did that work or what happened? DM: No. It didn’t actually. It was a bit of a disaster because the Germans got the smoke going. AM: Right. This is smoke over the Tirpitz. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. So what did they aircraft actually do? DM: Well, if you had any sense you dropped your bomb there because you’d be running short of fuel but some, some people brought them back and they were desperately short of fuel you know. Obviously. AM: And did you go back to Archangel? DM: Yeah. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So and how did the Russians react to that? DM: They thought we were a bunch of clots basically. AM: Right. So, so did you fly a second mission from Archangel? DM: Well, just think about that now. AM: Just tell me that. So after you, you left Archangel — DM: Yeah. AM: And came back to the UK. DM: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I also carried a crash crew with me actually. AM: Right. So what was that for? DM: Sorry? AM: So why did you carry that crash crew? DM: Well, they had to get back. Back to the UK so — AM: Oh, I see. So you were just a transport for them. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So that was the first sortie against the Tirpitz. DM: Yeah. AM: Tell me about the next one. DM: You’ll have to prompt me on that now. AM: Ok. Don, I think the second attack on the Tirpitz was, and the third were flown from Lossiemouth in Scotland. Can you tell me a little about, a little bit about both of these sorties? DM: Yeah. Well, we obviously flew up from, from Bardney and we stopped in Lossiemouth. You’ll have to prompt me on that. AM: That’s alright. So you went to Lossiemouth. And did you, were the bombs loaded at Lossiemouth for the trip to, to the fjords? DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. And was this a day raid or a night raid? DM: It was a day raid. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Roughly how many aeroplanes, aircraft were on this second raid? DM: Thirty. AM: Right. Gosh. Right. DM: Yeah. AM: And was it successful or not? Other: Was it successful, dad? DM: Was it? Well yeah. Was it or not? I’m not sure. AM: Don, on the third raid against the Tirpitz what sort of weapon was the Lancaster carrying? DM: Carrying a six tonne, a six tonne Tallboy. Yeah. AM: Right. So one Tallboy. DM: Oh yeah. One. AM: Right. DM: Six tonnes. AM: Right. DM: That’s enough. AM: A huge weapon. DM: Yeah. AM: Were all the aircraft equipped with Tallboy? DM: In the end yes. So — AM: Right. Right. And how did you release? Singly or as a group? DM: Singly. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: And where were you in the stream attacking the Tirpitz? DM: I was at the end there because I was wind finding. That’s right. I remember that now. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So, tell me the purpose of wind finding. DM: Yeah. The purpose of wind finding was to have an accurate wind for, for dropping your bomb because if you hadn’t got it right actually it would be off target. AM: Right. So how did how did you go about that? DM: Ok. I used to fly into wind and then go down for about, it was a racetrack. Down for about two minutes then back, drift and back over again. And the distance between we had flown and that was that was a wind then. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: So you passed that wind to the other crews. DM: Yeah. And whoever was in charge assessed it. I mean he might not think yours was the best so he’d decide which was the correct one or the best one. AM: Right. So, so this left you then at the back of the stream. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. So, when you released your Tallboy what happened then? DM: Oh, you came up about seven hundred feet. AM: Right. Right. And did you know then what the result of the attack? Could you see anything? DM: Not really. AM: No. DM: No. AM: So when did you find out the raid had been a, a success? On the way home actually. On the BBC news. AM: Right. DM: Still flying home. AM: Right. That must have been amazing. DM: It was. AM: Yeah. DM: It was quite something. AM: Yeah. I’ll just switch if off. [recording paused] AM: Don, what sort of time of day was the release over the target at the fjord against the Tirpitz? DM: About 1 o’clock. AM: Right. And what about enemy fighters? Were there any there? DM: There should have been but as I said we had an anti-Nazi sympathiser who sent them to the wrong place. AM: Gosh. DM: Yeah. A bit of luck for us actually. AM: Yeah. I mean what do you think? Can you remember what kind of fighters that were based there? DM: Yeah. Focke Wulf 190. AM: Which are fairly powerful machines. DM: Indeed. Yeah. AM: Yeah. And what sort of, what sort of effect would that have had against a daytime Lancaster? DM: We probably would lost half of them. Fifty percent losses. AM: Right. Right. So when you heard the news on the BBC that the Tirpitz was no more. DM: Yeah. AM: What, what did you feel like? DM: I felt very glad we wouldn’t have to go back again. AM: I’ll bet you were. DM: Yeah. AM: I’ll switch that off. [recording paused] AM: Don, while you were at Bardney did you get any opportunity to go back to Scotland to visit your family? DM: I think I did on one occasion. Then later on actually and we landed at Lossiemouth. AM: Oh right. You flew up. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: And then did you get a train or — DM: I think there was transport laid on there. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: And what was it like to be back home now as, you know an experienced pilot? You probably won’t like me saying this but something of a hero in the community. What was it like to be home? DM: Well, I wasn’t regarded as a hero because everybody else was doing their own thing as well you know. AM: Right. Right. DM: Yeah. AM: And after you visited your folks you went back by the same way to Bardney. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. Now, towards the end of the campaign I believe you flew a sortie to Berchtesgaden. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Can you tell me just a wee bit about that? DM: Let me think about that now. AM: I’ll switch this off. [recording paused] AM: Don, I believe that after the end of the war you took some of the ground crew on flights. DM: Yes. That’s right. I said that. AM: Over Germany. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: What was, what was that like for you? But more importantly what was it like for them? DM: I think they were a bit, a bit aghast at the damage that had been done you know. AM: Right. And what sort of places did you take them to? Which cities? DM: Cologne, because that was nearer there and then Stuttgart. Yeah. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. And because you flew past Stuttgart when you went to Berchtesgaden by the Alps. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Now that was a long long sortie. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Yeah. Was that the last operational sortie you flew or — DM: I’m not sure. AM: No. DM: No. AM: No, so when the, when the war actually finished what was the feeling like at Bardney? DM: Let me just think now. Well, I think over you know. AM: Yeah. DM: Yeah. And we could go, could go on some jollies there and — AM: Yeah. DM: Yeah. AM: And had you made up your own mind what you wanted to do with your life at that point? DM: Yeah. I wanted to go into civil flying. AM: Right. DM: The whole point of it actually. I was very keen. AM: Right. DM: To go flying solely. AM: Right. And how did you go about that? Could you do training with the RAF or did you have to leave the RAF at that point? DM: Let me think now. Yeah. AM: Right. DM: They failed me. So — AM: What did they fail you on? I find that hard to believe. DM: Well, the old CO took a scunner to me actually. AM: Really. And what aeroplane was that on? DM: That was on a York. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: Which was a bit like a Lancaster. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. Right so after this chap had the cheek to fail you what happened then? DM: Oh yes. Yes. I remember now. I was walking along [unclear] Street which was in the middle of London and I saw an advert said, four engine, “Four engine pilots wanted.” So I went straight in, said, ‘I’m a four engine pilot.’ The next thing I was flying down to Rio. AM: Brilliant. Brilliant. That was the start of your civil flying career. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. AM: And how long did you fly for from that point on? How many years do you think you flew? DM: Thirty five. AM: Right. And what was the last aeroplane you flew? DM: A 747. AM: So the Lancaster to the 747. DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Quite remarkable. DM: Yeah. AM: Now, coming back to the war. DM: Yeah. AM: You, a lot of the sorties might merge together. What was your, you’re looking back now you know are there any things that really stand out either about sorties or about people that will remain with you? DM: Let me just think. Flying, flying to Berchtesgaden. Yeah. We weren’t sure what was going to happen now. You know there was a lot of but but there wasn’t, there was anybody there waiting for us because I told you they had this anti-Nazi chap. AM: Right. DM: Yeah. Are you alright there? Other: [unclear] the other stories. AM: It doesn’t matter at all. No. Is there anything else that you would like to add in that I haven’t asked you that you’d like to say about your experience? DM: No. Not really. I think I’ve covered it all. Yes. AM: I’ve really enjoyed it. It’s fantastic. Amazing. Can I have a look at your picture? DM: Yes. Sure. Other: I went down to Phil Tetlow’s funeral I think it was, wasn’t it? DM: Yeah. Other: About two years ago and I presented his then wife with a photo, a framed photo of this and see which one he is. AM: I think that’s him there. Is that right? Other: Yes. Yes. Yes. He was in the RAF much longer than dad actually. I think, I think he — DM: He went into Control. Yeah. Other: Right. So he made it his, it was his — DM: What dear? Other: It was his career. DM: Yeah. AM: He went into air traffic control did he? DM: Yeah. Yeah. AM: Right. DM: This fell out of your — AM: Oh right. Bookmark. DM: Yeah. AM: Right. Other: It’s hard to believe that these are all twenty something. AM: I think that’s what’s — DM: I mean that’s that alone I find incredible because I look at a twenty, twenty one year old today and I’m thinking very frightening. Put them in the same situation I don’t know but you know I’m very proud of them all. AM: Yes. I mean that is the question. You just don’t know how today’s youngsters would react. DM: Oh, I think they’d do very well. AM: Yeah. I suspect so too. DM: Yeah. AM: If push came to the shove. Other: Yeah. Exactly. AM: I mean because the difference when I joined the Air Force which was in the late 60s it had become a peace time Air Force, you know. DM: Right. AM: There was still quite a lot of wartime people around. Not many pilots interestingly. Quite a lot of engineers and navigators. DM: Navigators. Right. AM: And the only people you saw with medals of course were wartime — DM: Yeah. AM: Aircrew. DM: Yeah. AM: And I mean it used to be a joke that the average number of medals was zero in my peer group until much later. Other: Until the Falklands really. AM: Until the Falklands. Other: Yeah. AM: And then of course since I mean some of the stories coming out of — Other: Iraq and — AM: Iraq and Afghanistan. DM: Afghanistan. AM: Is amazing. DM: Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. AM: Right. Now, can I, do you mind if I take a photograph of you there? DM: Ok. AM: To go with the record. DM: I’ll probably crack the lens but never mind. AM: [laughs] Right. DM: Ok. [pause] AM: And get one of you together as well. Right. [pause] AM: Very good. AM: Ok. That’s better. One more. I’ll get one of Alison in a minute. AM: I’ve got a form that I need to sign. Other: Alright. No worries. It’s ok. AM: Right. You must be immensely proud of your father. Other: Oh I am. AM: Yeah. Other: Absolutely. AM: Yeah. Other: Absolutely. I mean like I’ve seen where he’s been and dad won’t mind me saying this but where he’s been interviewed in years gone by where the memories are fresher. AM: Right. Other: And I think you know as time goes on. AM: Remarkable. Other: Yeah. I think. Yes. AM: Yeah. Right. Other: I don’t think I could remember anything at ninety five. AM: Actually, I actually found a transcript, Don. DM: Yeah. AM: Of an interview you did more than ten years ago. Other: Oh really. DM: Oh yeah. AM: With a bloke from a magazine. DM: Oh yeah. Yeah. AM: About your book. DM: Oh. Other: Oh. AM: Quite interesting. DM: Yeah. AM: I found it online. Other: Oh, did you really? AM: I just typed in Don MacIntosh DFC and up it came. Other: Really. DM: Good Lord. Other: Interesting. AM: Amazing, isn’t it? Other: Yeah. Oh a lot of times — AM: So I read through it. The same guy — Other: Because I think you also did something for BBC. I remember when we came for your eightieth. AM: Right. Other: Actually dad had a interview I think with BBC. I don’t know if you remember actually so. [background chat about photos] Other: So, how do you think you did dad? DM: What? Other: How did you think you did? DM: You tell me. Other: No. Do you feel you did alright? I mean I know there were a few pauses but I think like he said you know seventy years on. DM: Yeah. Other: I’m glad that you did your book when you did it. I don’t think you could have written your book now. DM: Oh no. Absolutely not. Other: No, I’m just saying you would have been too tired eh. DM: I wouldn’t have the energy anyway. Other: Energy. So, I think when you started it it’s been out fifteen years so that would have been ‘80 when it was published and then you worked on it for fifteen years so so it was you were at the end of your sixties early seventies. Right dear? DM: Yeah. Yeah. 9 Squadron aircrew bombing Lancaster pilot RAF Bardney Schräge Musik Tirpitz