Interview with Reginald Walter Jordan. One.
Title
Interview with Reginald Walter Jordan. One.
Description
Reg Jordan volunteered for the RAF on his eighteenth birthday. He initially thought he would apply as a gunner but was trained as a pilot in Canada before being posted to his operational squadron. His first operation was leaflet dropping over France. His air bomber experienced debilitating air sickness and Reg had to insist on a change. He was posted to the Burma Campaign and on one occasion had to bring the aircraft down on a remote runway surrounded by rice fields.
Taken from video.
Creator
Date
2019-10-20
Coverage
Language
Type
Format
01:30:08 Audio Recording
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Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
Identifier
AJordanRW191020
Transcription
TO: So, can you tell me about when you joined the Air Force?
RJ: Yeah. Right. I promptly on my eighteenth birthday I went down to Exeter from Wellington where I lived. Do you know Wellington in Somerset? Are you familiar with the obelisk on the Blackdown Hills?
TO: No.
RJ: The area is where it was but that is, that is Wellington in, in Somerset. You were just saying that if I ran over very briefly how I came to join the Air Force. Yes. I went down to Exeter. I’d seen in the local rag I suppose that they were wanting gunners to man the turrets in bomber aircraft and I hadn’t received anything very special in the way of education anyway. That is to say I had a limited academic education. I was going on there to say that nevertheless I was dead keen on getting into the air if I possibly could so I went down to Exeter to volunteer as a gunner and the chap who conducted the interview took all the particulars. Then his boss came home from lunch with a different mindset altogether and he was interested in knowing why I wasn’t applying for pilot/ navigator training because although he could see that academically I wasn’t particularly well qualified I had a bit of nous. I was keen on flying etcetera. We’ll pick it up from there in a moment. Yes. I was a founder member of the Air Training Corps in Wellington, Somerset. I remember Frank Gillard. He was a Wellingtonian. Frank Gillard, the war correspondent so I had sort of tenuous connections with the broadcasting fraternity and also with the, with people who would further my career in terms of getting into the air. So [pause] yes, so as I say having gone down for this interview the corporal who conducted the interview was using a format. So all he was doing really was filling in the format with particulars that were thought to be of interest. Anyway, his boss came back with a totally different mindset. Yes. Why wasn’t I applying for pilot/navigator training? Because at that stage we were scraping the barrel in terms of availability of air crew or people who could serve as air crew because it was essentially a volunteer thing. You weren’t drafted into it. Anybody who went into the air was a volunteer so that was the sort of thing in their favour. There was always a few you know well viewed by the Royal Air Force regulars. Where did we go from there? Yes. I’d gone to Exeter to do this interview. So I came back armed with a whole syllabus of training that I should undertake in brushing up my maths or whatever in order to make good my deficiencies in algebraic matters. Trigonometry to some extent and so on. Things which involved navigation as you can well appreciate. Where did we go from there? [pause] You’re not a chocolate biscuit man.
TO: Not really no. You can have mine if you want. And were you given a medical test for aircrew?
RJ: Yes, the next thing that happened was I attended a medical test at the Clarendon Laboratories. Part of Oxford University. Yeah. So that was good for a day out. Yes. Give me a lead if you would.
TO: Ok. What was the next stage of your training after the, after the medical test?
RJ: Oh yes. I went for this. Yes. That’s right. It’s a very important matter. Very important [unclear] in my, in my medical for aircrew. We just did the usual sight, sound and whatever. Things that all medical blokes go through you know just generally performed. Anyway, part of it consisted of a rough broad medical and he had the usual, you know Alpha went down to Zulu down at the bottom and we got to the point where this chap suddenly produced the Japanese, Japanese booklet on colour vision. You are familiar with it I expect. You’ve seen it have you?
[pause – pages turning]
RJ: This is the bit, the bit concerned would roughly fit into that sort of space to get some sort of idea of its compilation. I suppose it was like fifty pages in depth. Anyway, the [unclear] as I say produced this Japanese book written by a chap like yourself [unclear] normal colour television. Colour vision.
TO: Yeah.
RJ: Yeah [pause] Well, I got into a problem straightaway with this chap. Well, read out the numbers as you can see on that page and I was seeing a different set of numbers than he was generally speaking and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You are red, green blind is your official [laughs] your official sort of category which didn’t sound very helpful to me. But this chap went on to to say in this sort of chatty, this chatty sort of way this was on our day out at Cambridge, sorry Clarendon, the Clarendon Laboratories at Oxford and he said, ‘My advice to you would be [pause] I said, ‘Well, how am I going to cope if I tell one colour from another?’ He said, ‘Well, have a chat with your crew.’ You know, that was the sort of informal gaga going on between us which didn’t sound very helpful from my point of view. But the fact is that I got through that lot officially graded red green blind I think it was. Obviously the category, the nearest category that they could find that I could be flying [pause] I went home from there a bit depressed about the fact that you know they discovered this deficiency of mine and they didn’t go really useful thoughts on the spot at any rate of how to cope with this deficiency. But the fact is I went into training. I got my wings in Canada. I did thirty four operations or missions against the Japanese in the Far East. That was, that was my operational experience. In the Far East with 356 Squadron. A Liberator squadron. Meantime, I not only returned from Canada with wings or whatever but then I did my Wellington OTU at Harwell. And then I, I did a leaflet raid over Montereau about forty miles due south of Paris which, a mission which went without any problems [laughs] except that I recall the air bomber who was supposed to be helping with the navigation was draped over the elsan sink or the lavatory for the journey spewing his guts out to put it crudely. I found myself looking the next day for a replacement for him because I wasn’t going to fly with him as an air bomber. No way. So I’d already just sort of written him off because the way you crewed up was very much a sort of rather like a gentleman’s club. You had a chat with people around having a cup of tea and they would encourage you to form groups of your own if you like. That was how informal it was. At least that was the starting point and then things gradually go ahead and became more structured beyond that. I’m giving your thing a hard time I’m afraid.
TO: No. That’s fine. That’s fine.
RJ: Is there any way of hearing it back? Some of this recording or not?
TO: We can hear it back when we’ve finished if you like.
RJ: Ok.
TO: Do you remember any other ops flights over Europe that you did?
RJ: Yes. Well, I did, I did the one, the so-called nursery op as it was called. They would send you you see at the end of your operational training and trained on Wellington.
[[recording interrupted - someone brings in tea]
RJ: Sorry.
TO: You were saying there was a nursery raid you were on.
RJ: Oh, that’s right. Yes. During the, during the, I did my Wellington Operational Training Unit based at Harwell. In fact, I was actually flying out of there [pause] a subsidiary base, Hampstead Norris. Yes, that’s right. Hampstead Norris [pause] At the end of the operational training on Wellington 1Cs they made known the fact that they were looking for people who had served in India and who would stand a better chance of getting an early captaincy of a crew by going to India, converting on to the [pause] on to the Liberator from the Wellington. Not much to say there I think really.
TO: Can I just ask what was your impression of the Wellington as an aircraft?
RJ: Well, it was a beautiful, it was a beautifully put together aircraft. It was. It was designed, Barnes Wallis who was also associated with, who also, yes was responsible for the geodetic construction of the Wellington fuselage. He had a hand in that. If you recall, well you probably don’t recall [laughs] from the history books you’ll see that the, in the late ‘30s two of the aircraft which the Royal Air Force had did long distance flights flying aircraft, flying aircraft with this geodetic construction which as I say was invented by Barnes Wallis. I’m rambling on a bit. What have you got there?
TO: So was the Wellington a good aircraft?
RJ: Oh yes. Well, it was a beautifully put together aircraft. You know, it made sense. It looked, it looked the part and it apart from the fact it was, it seemed to me to be a bit underpowered I got over doing my leaflet raid over Montereau and I was pleased to be, that we’d been able to dispose of our leaflets. But it looked very much to me as though we were dumping these things over open countryside rather than over a township although of course you pick up a few people who strayed into the area I suppose. Still all part of the whole point of propaganda war. In fact, I’ve got a [pause] can you pass me that book there?
TO: Yeah.
[pause]
RJ: Oh, there we are. There’s a Wellington. That’s, this is a book I’ve written about my experiences. And there we are receiving our wings. These were Canadian friends of ours that we struck up good relationships with in, in Moncton. Oh yes, and there is a copy of the, of one of our leaflets there. Oh, and that was a photograph, the object of that photograph would be, we each carried escape kits so that if we could link up with a line somewhere we we could provide them with a photograph for the purposes in France and so on. Well, there is a Wellington there [pause] So that’s something like that. I enjoyed writing. This is really an attempt at writing. There is a mock up as it were of a, of a raid depicting a target [unclear] in Burma. This would be fairly typical by the way. Going in by these ground defences to have bursts all around you.
TO: And what were the, what were the conditions like aboard a Wellington bomber?
RJ: Well, it was just, you know sitting in a fairly comfortable chair. Those test pilots would see to it that in their own interests in testifying to the quality of the aircraft but you bet your life that generally speaking you had a decent co-pilot and a decent pilot’s seat. There’s nothing like looking after your own interests.
TO: And can you remember the first, your first flight in the RAF?
RJ: My first flight. When I first, yes. I think I must have, I must have had a trip in a, in a Tiger Moth. I believe that I probably did this. I don’t know where I did it. That’s right. We were briefly based in Northamptonshire and I can remember this quite well because the people in that part of the States, in that part of the UK rather they they more or less housed the aircraft [unclear] did they I think you’ll find. The people I was billeted with in [pause] during that period were that line. That line of line of business.
TO: And so do you remember the first flying lesson you had?
RJ: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. [unclear] we they got together these this pilot, navigator collection of people. You were either going to be a pilot or a navigator. If you didn’t you would sort it out by sorting those people who had no natural ability as pilots. So they got shot first. They got rid of the rest. What shall we say the without wishing to cast aspersions about them, about the other lot there. I don’t wish to cast aspersions against the navigator and the other lot. I’m taking up a lot of your time I’m afraid.
TO: That’s alright. So you were chosen to be a pilot and what was your first flying lesson?
RJ: Yes. I went to, we, I went to [pause] yes we attended at Heaton Park. We were under canvas for weeks on end making a lot of contribution to the social life in Manchester and at the end of it all we, we were collected. They got us together in Heaton Park that’s right and we were paraded to various squads and whatever and at the end of it all you either had the good luck and I had to be in the, in the pilot stream as opposed to the navigator stream. Because if you want to fly presumably the determinating factor is presumably that you want to achieve the ambition of flying. Flying the aircraft yourself. You’re not there to enjoy the ride. You were there to do a job. Over to you.
TO: So how did it feel during, how did you feel during your first flight in command of the aircraft?
RJ: Are we talking now about the first solo are we?
TO: First flight with your crew.
RJ: Oh, we’re skipping a bit there.
TO: That’s fine.
RJ: I think it might be quite interesting perhaps from your point of view that you probe a little bit in terms of [pause]
TO: Ok.
RJ: Speaking of crews. We’re sort of skipping a whole lot there because [pause] having returned from the United States or from Canada or the various elements of the air training groups abroad, Rhodesia, South Africa whatever [pause] Forgive me for rambling on.
TO: That’s ok. So do you want to go back to your first solo flight then?
RJ: Yes. First solo flight. Yeah. Yes, you see the pilot, the pilot training. Just let me gather my thoughts a moment [pause] over to you.
TO: Ok. What was, so your first flight was in a Tiger Moth?
RJ: Yeah. Yes, that’s right. Yes. I was invited to go to [pause] where did I go? I said the wrong thing. Oxford or one of the universities. Whilst there I did, I did my first solo flight because I remember coming home from this day out so to speak and my father quizzing me and saying, ‘Well, how did you get on?’ Or whatever and he seemed quite surprised that I should show any aptitude. I don’t know why. I don’t know that he was dismissive. He wasn’t. He wasn’t putting me down but he, well he quizzed me as to how I got on and I said, ‘Well, I enjoyed the —’ whatever it was. The few days. Oh ,and had I flown the aircraft? ‘Oh yes,’ I said. ‘What do you mean? On your own?’ ‘Yes.’ Which I had. I’d done a solo flight. So at least I was climbing the ladder [laughs]
TO: So shall we [unclear]
RJ: Yeah, go on.
[recording paused]
TO: Can you tell me about your trip out to India?
RJ: Yes. We went out. I forget how many ships in convoy now but one of the first flights, one of the first, one of the first convoys I should say to go through the Mediterranean up to that point its usage had been denied to us. So we were making progress in terms of the activities you know. The war was gradually swinging our way. And you had a question there.
TO: Was your convoy attacked on the way to India?
RJ: Oh, to India. Yes, that’s right. To India. We, I can remember we were one of the first, we were one of the first convoys to go through and use the Canal for some time. So that was quite a tick in our favour. So that was a sense of achievement. Anyway, we, I can remember [laughs] this is a coincidence just by the way of an amusing aside I can remember when we got to Suez I can’t remember just where with a load of civilians. This was before we exit the canal or what but the troops, dear oh dear. We each had a moulded [trilby] a bloody great thing you know. It was cast in a structured fashion and there was a sudden whoop of joy and amusement expressed by the troops [laughs] aboard the ship and we went over to the other side of the craft and to see umpteen bowler hats floating in the canal environment you know. So this was some of the absurdities of the war. These are the amusing aspects. I could tell you there were some rather different aspects of it [pause] Who is your employer?
TO: Oh, the charity I volunteer for is the International Bomber Command Centre.
RJ: Oh, I see.
TO: They record the stories of veterans like yourself who served in the RAF.
RJ: Sorry?
TO: People like you who served in the RAF or people who remember —
RJ: Yeah.
TO: The RAF in the war.
RJ: So, how did you come by the job?
TO: Some of my, someone from the charity came across footage of one of my interviews and asked if I’d like to interview people in my area.
RJ: Oh, I see. Well, yes. Excuse me.
TO: Ok.
[pause]
RJ: Now, as far as that the standing of this book is concerned I felt there was enough material there. I suppose this must have been [pause] I’m just trying to think of what period of my life I got into that. But clearly I’ve, yes I felt there was a book if you like. If one was capable of meeting the challenge. There was enough interest there, or should be enough interest there possibly to have a go at producing something and obviously if I got somebody else to do the job I would have taken that route. But [laughs] as so often happens compromise comes into it.
TO: Can you tell me what happened when your convoy arrived in India?
RJ: Yes. Yeah, we got to yes to Bombay. Have you been to Bombay? Because it is really quite a, I mean I know India for quite a while having been, having been based there. Also done business in India and other places, Burma and so on post war. Sorry, your question was?
TO: Where did you go when you arrived in India?
RJ: Oh yes. Well, we went to, to Bombay. It’s a very impressive port and you go through, I forget now, I forget the name of the [pause] There we are with our wings in Canada and meeting up with some of the locals who were very hospitable. Those were the days when they referred to, the old folk referred to the old country. That’s not bullshit. That’s for real. There’s much idle chat about you know [pause] and there’s a photograph I’ve taken for the escape purposes [unclear] and there’s a, there’s a copy of the leaflets. Some of the photographs I’ve selected here illustrate points. Well, I’ve included them to fill in the background.
TO: So what was the port you were talking about?
RJ: Yeah. Bombay. Or these days it’s called Mumbai. There’s some quite decent photographs there.
[pause]
TO: So do you remember your first mission over Japanese territory?
RJ: Yes. Very well. Very well. I did not return to base that night and we were posted as missing. Missing and [pause] this is ringing bells. No. I can’t just get that together. But let’s get back to the first. The first raid. It’s a pity I haven’t got my logbook here. But we were taking a target. Try and picture Mandalay say there as you look at the map and then just a little bit displaced from there there’s a workshop, a rail workshop at [unclear] here you see. Your question was do you remember your first operational mission?
TO: Yeah.
RJ: Yeah. Yes because shortly before we attacked [unclear] the target we entered cloud. Fairly loose cumulonimbus, not a lot at all except a bit of a damned nuisance if you were trying to keep formation and so on. And the, worked as I could at keeping in a decent formation so that I could continue to do the job which was to go and attack a secondary target which was some distance displaced from the primary one and that’s what most of our chaps did. Now, on the way back from [pause] so we went down and attacked a second, a secondary target and then [pause] with about fifteen minutes to run, to go before we expected to pick out the Tenasserim Coast nothing appeared at all familiar which was of increasing concern as suddenly or gradually looming from the distance were not the levels and the [unclear] but yes and we get a different scene. In fact, a completely different scene in the sense that we were picking up targets, we were picking up signs of hilly countries, countryside. And the rest of the raid, the rest of the raid, let’s get into this is a bloody interesting piece of news. I’m having a chat with the navigator and I’m expressing concern that he hasn’t got the map sheets a hundred miles, to within a hundred miles north of the track and he is a little bit huffy in the sense that he is challenging my scepticism why hasn’t he got these you see. He’s saying well the scope or me were the close [unclear] we’ve got is taking us a hundred miles north of our, of our intended track so you know he felt that that part of it was that criticism was unfounded in the sense that it did reflect badly. Is this thing going on?
TO: Yeah. Fine. Yeah.
RJ: Anyway [pause] actually so in the meantime I’ve cast around and among the, among the not targets but among the features, the ground features is is one which occurs to me. Well, nothing, if nothing else this might be handy by the way of putting the aircraft down somewhere as opposed to baling out. Anyway, so, so your question was what happened. Well, you can’t stick around trying to bring up features you know. Trying to identify things which were going to help us to get back on track. To cut a long story short I make use of this ground feature which has come up. Yes. After casting around like a ship at sea looking for a port so to speak. Any port will do so to speak. Any port in a storm is I think the term I’m looking for there [pause]
TO: You mentioned you’d see this feature on the ground.
RJ: Yeah.
TO: What happened next?
RJ: Yes, that’s right. Well, what this thing comprised was the most extraordinary thing because don’t forget we were hundreds of miles north of our target area and I’m just wondering whether this is going to help us at all.
TO: Ok.
[pause]
RJ: Right. On the front and back pages on the inside I’ve produced what were then the known names you see. Which helps people to, if they wish to be reminded what these places [pause] Where were we there? [pause] Well, I [pause] having had a go at in civilian life I wasn’t very, I was keen to get back into the RAF. So in 1949 [pause]
TO: Sorry could we go back to that story of when you were on your first mission and you saw a feature on the ground?
RJ: Yes. True. Yes, right. So the feature on the ground with railway lines running down alongside and I’m thinking in the meantime [unclear] in the meantime I [Scott] the flight engineer is telling me we were, ‘Fifteen minutes to go skipper.’ It would mean putting the aircraft down somewhere or, yeah abandoning ship one way or the other. So yes. So having exhausted the search for the adjoining map sheet I have a little contretemps with the navigator about the absence of the adjoining map sheet. Quickly [unclear] and then as I say this feature, these railway lines down there it was a funny place. They were building a marshalling yard. I thought what’s it doing out here. This is [unclear] thinking you know all at sea so to speak. This isn’t coming across at all well. You’ll have to spare me a lot of agony of getting this sorted out at some point or another.
TO: So what did you do? Did you find somewhere to land?
RJ: Well, what I did was I reckoned this paddy field so to speak was capable of taking an aircraft like a Liberator practically out of fuel anyway. My instinct was to A, to try to preserve the aircraft. Well, first of all let’s get this right I gave the crew the option of either staying with me aboard the aircraft as I intended to put it down. Do my job. Do my best to preserve the aircraft obviously and look after my crew. So I then got over these , overfly these hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. Yeah hundreds and hundreds. It’s not to exaggerate beyond that trying to, trying to get these people to move out of the way because I then decided you see that I was going to have a go at putting the aircraft down and then I quizzed my crewmen in turn and I gave them the option. They all wanted to stick with me. So they would abide with their aircraft and their captain. So that’s that one sorted out.
TO: So did you land on the track?
RJ: No. I get one, we fire off every damned cartridge we could find in the aircraft. We are not getting anywhere very fast just trying to scare these people out of the way. So I’m over flying almost so to speak at zero feet and hoping that they will do the necessary and keep out of my way. Over to you.
TO: so did you manage to land there?
RJ: Yeah. That’s exactly what I did. And that aircraft not only did it survive the war but it was put back into use and it appeared on my station. Somebody said if I care to go up to the airfield I should be able to find something of interest. Which was my aircraft you see. So not only did we save the aircraft and not injure the crew nothing else to say there really.
TO: So, what happened when you all got out of the bomber?
RJ: Well, the first thing that happened was [laugh] All this other sort of theatrical or not theatrical is that my rear gunner Ted Holmes comes forward and shakes me warmly by the hand for having got the aircraft down safely.
TO: And had you landed in Allied territory?
RJ: Yes. Well, the first thing you know one of the first things to happen is for the chap in charge of the strip which is what it was at a place called [unclear] And the chap in charge of the airstrip was a lieutenant colonel who bear in mind we would have to look very carefully for. It’s probably recorded here somewhere.
TO: Yes. We can check that.
RJ: Hmmn?
TO: We can check later if you like.
RJ: Yeah. Yeah. Fine. So that’s, that was an interesting flight.
TO: So did you land —
RJ: In the meantime we were posted missing.
TO: So did you land at an airstrip that had paddy fields around it?
RJ: Yes. I suppose that’s a fair description of it.
TO: And were you unable to make a usual approach? You had to make the locals —
RJ: Yes. I sized the situation up. I didn’t do anything in a great dash of haste. I followed my co-pilots recommendation that I should perhaps fasten my shoulder straps which I wouldn’t normally do just in case the whole thing turned turtle which was a possibility. But of course I approached the, I gave the landing every possible chance of success and it came off. So what else is there to say there? That’s well that would take you see my first thing was to take immediate steps with the help of the, of the chap in charge of the strip was to try to get in touch with base to say that operation you know, whatever our aircraft number was is safely down so and so.
TO: So how did you find this air strip?
RJ: How did I find it?
TO: How did you come across it whilst flying?
RJ: I just came across it by chance. Pure chance.
TO: And were there any other aircraft down there?
RJ: No. No. We were just south in fact of quite a big American airfield which [pause] that’s about it.
TO: Ok. And last time we spoke you mentioned at a time when Zeros attacked other aircraft.
RJ: Yes. Yes. Yes. I wonder where [pause] I might have been giving you a sort of a better feel for the fact the [unclear] retiring of returning from a raid when everything has gone to plan and things can happen. Things can help you. In the general weather conditions for example. The Zero has got or so they had a certain mark of Zero would have cannon fire available. For the first shot or two anyway you see. Now, this could, this could be a considerable help to a person like myself in the sense that [pause] I’ll let you ask me the next question.
TO: You mentioned last time you’d seen Zeros attacking other aircraft in the distance.
RJ: Yes. Yes.
TO: With their cannons and then they were low on ammunition when they got to you.
RJ: Yes. That’s right. Yes. Exactly right. I think in that instant, I think firstly there might have been an occasion and there was possibly more than one or two when the Zeros had a limited amount of cannon stuff available to them initially but then I would not, they would not be able to you know having used that that would be it. Yes. If we think back to that time when yeah I’m pretty certain that it was on that occasion when I could recall seeing the wreckage of two burning aircraft in the bay and putting two and two together [unclear] on that [unclear] if I’ve got this right. What probably happened that day was the Zeros came over the top. They had the cannons available to them and there were the Americans high flying aluminium blazing in the sunshine. There were other formations ourselves included coming in and out of cloud. And [pause] yes. That’s almost certainly the case that the two, the two blobs of, I mean I’ve looked at this. I’ve been to the intelligence. What’s the name of the thing I’m trying to think of? [pause] Oh, that’s way back. Oh, that’s my ground crew here [pause] and my aircrew —
[pause]
TO: So yes you said you’d seen the wreckage in the bay.
RJ: Yes. Yes, I really, I’m tying this together as it were with various visits which I made to the, I was hoping to pick up [pause]
TO: You can check it later if you want.
RJ: Yeah. We sized up a clearing with a low fly past although it showed signs of being [unclear] touched down at the end it looked firm enough for a bomber but a bit further in to attempt a wheels down landing. If my judgement was right and we landed with our undercarriage down we stood a good chance of ending up with a completely undamaged aircraft. Alternatively, if I had misread the situation and the ground was too soft we would have incurred considerably more damage than in a belly landing and more than that sustained injuries to the crew. I decided a wheels down landing besides an attempt at a wheels down landing emphasising the need for everyone to brace themselves for such time and to remain braced for long enough throughout the landing run. With the amount the fuel remaining the risk of fire would be at least reduced to a [pause] should the fuel system be ruptured. I think we’ve given it a fair whack.
TO: Just one more story I’d like you to tell if that’s ok.
RJ: Yeah. Sure.
TO: You said there was a time you were on a raid to Bangkok and that the bombs didn’t release properly and you had to, they had to be released manually. Could you tell me about that story please?
RJ: Yes. Well, that’s going back. That’s going back a bit. That was a different raid.
TO: Yeah.
RJ: There I bring by implication I would, I would risk casting my crew, and some members of my crew in a poor light which I have no wish to do and have no intention of doing. This is a long time passed since.
TO: So what else do you remember about seeing Zeros?
RJ: Well, I can recall seeing Zeros [pause] I can recall seeing the Zero out to the starboard side heading in the direction as the nose of our aircraft in the same angle. Sorry your question was?
TO: You saw Zeros to the starboard side.
RJ: Yes [pause] Yes, I’d seen zeros on the starboard side which was not a, not something I particularly enjoyed doing. We’ve given it a fair shot I think. I’m sorry. Did I get your name correctly?
TO: Thomas.
RJ: Thomas. John.
TO: Thomas is my name.
RJ: Thomas. Christian name Thomas.
TO: Yeah.
RJ: So what’s your surname?
TO: Ozel. Can I just ask, sorry —
RJ: Yes. Have we got a biro over there somewhere? Is there a biro there?
TO: Hold on a second I’ll just —
[recording paused]
TO: What’s your happiest memory from the war?
[pause]
RJ: Well, very happy memories of it. I can’t think of anything in particular quite frankly. Not spontaneously if it comes to that. I mean obviously one has I have a family. I mean I don’t have a personal family. I’m of a family of half a dozen children but I’m the second oldest of six children so that’s a bit of background as far as I am concerned which helps perhaps to cast a bit, helps to focus your attention.
TO: Was there heavy anti-aircraft fire when you were at the target?
RJ: Yes intense.
[recording paused]
TO: Sorry, you were saying about anti-aircraft fire at the targets.
RJ: Yes. It would vary a lot. In fact, the standard practice would be for you see to start with we would be attacking these targets or the practice was to be attacking these targets in formation from ten thousand feet. That was the sort of the idea of having us all in a box formation so you dropped everything together if that was feasible. You had to play a little bit by ear but I’d say generally I have to ask you at this point in time I’ve spoken quite freely and without any hesitation at all. I’ve been candid. But I have a right and a duty to protect my, the reputation of my own interests as well as the professional reputation of the Royal Air Force.
TO: So is there anything —
RJ: So, the thing to do, I don’t know what you intend to do with the material but it would be helpful if you were as candid in your dealings with me as you have been, as I’ve been with you in relating my experiences.
TO: Well, I can give you and your family a DVD of this footage.
RJ: Yeah.
TO: For you to have and to keep and if you like we can, we can donate a copy of this to the charity that I volunteer for and they will keep it in their Archive if you want. But that’s your choice if you want that or not.
RJ: Yes. Ok. Well, perhaps we could think on that.
TO: Ok. No problem.
RJ: I don’t believe in doing things at half cock. I like to be properly briefed and people to be, supporting to me to be properly briefed as well as the interviewer. So I’d like, I’d like you to keep me informed as to what you would to do with the material.
TO: Ok.
RJ: That said [unclear]
TO: I forgot to ask. What year were you born?
RJ: ’23.
TO: Ok. And is there anything you want to add about your time in the RAF?
RJ: No. Except that I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the Royal Air Force.
TO: And were you mainly focusing on targets in Burma and Thailand?
RJ: Yes. That, it would be helpful perhaps to just reflect on what my total experience has been in terms of yes [pause] it’s 4 o’clock now is it? Yes. Well, I think we’ve —
TO: Shall we call it a day it a day then?
RJ: What?
TO: Shall we pause there for now then?
RJ: I think so. Yes.
TO: Ok. Well thank you very much for telling me what you’ve told me. It’s been very fascinating.
RJ: Not at all. Not at all.
TO: Just so the people on the recording know the gentleman we were interviewing was Group Captain Reg Jordan.
RJ: Yeah. Right. I promptly on my eighteenth birthday I went down to Exeter from Wellington where I lived. Do you know Wellington in Somerset? Are you familiar with the obelisk on the Blackdown Hills?
TO: No.
RJ: The area is where it was but that is, that is Wellington in, in Somerset. You were just saying that if I ran over very briefly how I came to join the Air Force. Yes. I went down to Exeter. I’d seen in the local rag I suppose that they were wanting gunners to man the turrets in bomber aircraft and I hadn’t received anything very special in the way of education anyway. That is to say I had a limited academic education. I was going on there to say that nevertheless I was dead keen on getting into the air if I possibly could so I went down to Exeter to volunteer as a gunner and the chap who conducted the interview took all the particulars. Then his boss came home from lunch with a different mindset altogether and he was interested in knowing why I wasn’t applying for pilot/ navigator training because although he could see that academically I wasn’t particularly well qualified I had a bit of nous. I was keen on flying etcetera. We’ll pick it up from there in a moment. Yes. I was a founder member of the Air Training Corps in Wellington, Somerset. I remember Frank Gillard. He was a Wellingtonian. Frank Gillard, the war correspondent so I had sort of tenuous connections with the broadcasting fraternity and also with the, with people who would further my career in terms of getting into the air. So [pause] yes, so as I say having gone down for this interview the corporal who conducted the interview was using a format. So all he was doing really was filling in the format with particulars that were thought to be of interest. Anyway, his boss came back with a totally different mindset. Yes. Why wasn’t I applying for pilot/navigator training? Because at that stage we were scraping the barrel in terms of availability of air crew or people who could serve as air crew because it was essentially a volunteer thing. You weren’t drafted into it. Anybody who went into the air was a volunteer so that was the sort of thing in their favour. There was always a few you know well viewed by the Royal Air Force regulars. Where did we go from there? Yes. I’d gone to Exeter to do this interview. So I came back armed with a whole syllabus of training that I should undertake in brushing up my maths or whatever in order to make good my deficiencies in algebraic matters. Trigonometry to some extent and so on. Things which involved navigation as you can well appreciate. Where did we go from there? [pause] You’re not a chocolate biscuit man.
TO: Not really no. You can have mine if you want. And were you given a medical test for aircrew?
RJ: Yes, the next thing that happened was I attended a medical test at the Clarendon Laboratories. Part of Oxford University. Yeah. So that was good for a day out. Yes. Give me a lead if you would.
TO: Ok. What was the next stage of your training after the, after the medical test?
RJ: Oh yes. I went for this. Yes. That’s right. It’s a very important matter. Very important [unclear] in my, in my medical for aircrew. We just did the usual sight, sound and whatever. Things that all medical blokes go through you know just generally performed. Anyway, part of it consisted of a rough broad medical and he had the usual, you know Alpha went down to Zulu down at the bottom and we got to the point where this chap suddenly produced the Japanese, Japanese booklet on colour vision. You are familiar with it I expect. You’ve seen it have you?
[pause – pages turning]
RJ: This is the bit, the bit concerned would roughly fit into that sort of space to get some sort of idea of its compilation. I suppose it was like fifty pages in depth. Anyway, the [unclear] as I say produced this Japanese book written by a chap like yourself [unclear] normal colour television. Colour vision.
TO: Yeah.
RJ: Yeah [pause] Well, I got into a problem straightaway with this chap. Well, read out the numbers as you can see on that page and I was seeing a different set of numbers than he was generally speaking and he said, ‘Well,’ he said, ‘You are red, green blind is your official [laughs] your official sort of category which didn’t sound very helpful to me. But this chap went on to to say in this sort of chatty, this chatty sort of way this was on our day out at Cambridge, sorry Clarendon, the Clarendon Laboratories at Oxford and he said, ‘My advice to you would be [pause] I said, ‘Well, how am I going to cope if I tell one colour from another?’ He said, ‘Well, have a chat with your crew.’ You know, that was the sort of informal gaga going on between us which didn’t sound very helpful from my point of view. But the fact is that I got through that lot officially graded red green blind I think it was. Obviously the category, the nearest category that they could find that I could be flying [pause] I went home from there a bit depressed about the fact that you know they discovered this deficiency of mine and they didn’t go really useful thoughts on the spot at any rate of how to cope with this deficiency. But the fact is I went into training. I got my wings in Canada. I did thirty four operations or missions against the Japanese in the Far East. That was, that was my operational experience. In the Far East with 356 Squadron. A Liberator squadron. Meantime, I not only returned from Canada with wings or whatever but then I did my Wellington OTU at Harwell. And then I, I did a leaflet raid over Montereau about forty miles due south of Paris which, a mission which went without any problems [laughs] except that I recall the air bomber who was supposed to be helping with the navigation was draped over the elsan sink or the lavatory for the journey spewing his guts out to put it crudely. I found myself looking the next day for a replacement for him because I wasn’t going to fly with him as an air bomber. No way. So I’d already just sort of written him off because the way you crewed up was very much a sort of rather like a gentleman’s club. You had a chat with people around having a cup of tea and they would encourage you to form groups of your own if you like. That was how informal it was. At least that was the starting point and then things gradually go ahead and became more structured beyond that. I’m giving your thing a hard time I’m afraid.
TO: No. That’s fine. That’s fine.
RJ: Is there any way of hearing it back? Some of this recording or not?
TO: We can hear it back when we’ve finished if you like.
RJ: Ok.
TO: Do you remember any other ops flights over Europe that you did?
RJ: Yes. Well, I did, I did the one, the so-called nursery op as it was called. They would send you you see at the end of your operational training and trained on Wellington.
[[recording interrupted - someone brings in tea]
RJ: Sorry.
TO: You were saying there was a nursery raid you were on.
RJ: Oh, that’s right. Yes. During the, during the, I did my Wellington Operational Training Unit based at Harwell. In fact, I was actually flying out of there [pause] a subsidiary base, Hampstead Norris. Yes, that’s right. Hampstead Norris [pause] At the end of the operational training on Wellington 1Cs they made known the fact that they were looking for people who had served in India and who would stand a better chance of getting an early captaincy of a crew by going to India, converting on to the [pause] on to the Liberator from the Wellington. Not much to say there I think really.
TO: Can I just ask what was your impression of the Wellington as an aircraft?
RJ: Well, it was a beautiful, it was a beautifully put together aircraft. It was. It was designed, Barnes Wallis who was also associated with, who also, yes was responsible for the geodetic construction of the Wellington fuselage. He had a hand in that. If you recall, well you probably don’t recall [laughs] from the history books you’ll see that the, in the late ‘30s two of the aircraft which the Royal Air Force had did long distance flights flying aircraft, flying aircraft with this geodetic construction which as I say was invented by Barnes Wallis. I’m rambling on a bit. What have you got there?
TO: So was the Wellington a good aircraft?
RJ: Oh yes. Well, it was a beautifully put together aircraft. You know, it made sense. It looked, it looked the part and it apart from the fact it was, it seemed to me to be a bit underpowered I got over doing my leaflet raid over Montereau and I was pleased to be, that we’d been able to dispose of our leaflets. But it looked very much to me as though we were dumping these things over open countryside rather than over a township although of course you pick up a few people who strayed into the area I suppose. Still all part of the whole point of propaganda war. In fact, I’ve got a [pause] can you pass me that book there?
TO: Yeah.
[pause]
RJ: Oh, there we are. There’s a Wellington. That’s, this is a book I’ve written about my experiences. And there we are receiving our wings. These were Canadian friends of ours that we struck up good relationships with in, in Moncton. Oh yes, and there is a copy of the, of one of our leaflets there. Oh, and that was a photograph, the object of that photograph would be, we each carried escape kits so that if we could link up with a line somewhere we we could provide them with a photograph for the purposes in France and so on. Well, there is a Wellington there [pause] So that’s something like that. I enjoyed writing. This is really an attempt at writing. There is a mock up as it were of a, of a raid depicting a target [unclear] in Burma. This would be fairly typical by the way. Going in by these ground defences to have bursts all around you.
TO: And what were the, what were the conditions like aboard a Wellington bomber?
RJ: Well, it was just, you know sitting in a fairly comfortable chair. Those test pilots would see to it that in their own interests in testifying to the quality of the aircraft but you bet your life that generally speaking you had a decent co-pilot and a decent pilot’s seat. There’s nothing like looking after your own interests.
TO: And can you remember the first, your first flight in the RAF?
RJ: My first flight. When I first, yes. I think I must have, I must have had a trip in a, in a Tiger Moth. I believe that I probably did this. I don’t know where I did it. That’s right. We were briefly based in Northamptonshire and I can remember this quite well because the people in that part of the States, in that part of the UK rather they they more or less housed the aircraft [unclear] did they I think you’ll find. The people I was billeted with in [pause] during that period were that line. That line of line of business.
TO: And so do you remember the first flying lesson you had?
RJ: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. [unclear] we they got together these this pilot, navigator collection of people. You were either going to be a pilot or a navigator. If you didn’t you would sort it out by sorting those people who had no natural ability as pilots. So they got shot first. They got rid of the rest. What shall we say the without wishing to cast aspersions about them, about the other lot there. I don’t wish to cast aspersions against the navigator and the other lot. I’m taking up a lot of your time I’m afraid.
TO: That’s alright. So you were chosen to be a pilot and what was your first flying lesson?
RJ: Yes. I went to, we, I went to [pause] yes we attended at Heaton Park. We were under canvas for weeks on end making a lot of contribution to the social life in Manchester and at the end of it all we, we were collected. They got us together in Heaton Park that’s right and we were paraded to various squads and whatever and at the end of it all you either had the good luck and I had to be in the, in the pilot stream as opposed to the navigator stream. Because if you want to fly presumably the determinating factor is presumably that you want to achieve the ambition of flying. Flying the aircraft yourself. You’re not there to enjoy the ride. You were there to do a job. Over to you.
TO: So how did it feel during, how did you feel during your first flight in command of the aircraft?
RJ: Are we talking now about the first solo are we?
TO: First flight with your crew.
RJ: Oh, we’re skipping a bit there.
TO: That’s fine.
RJ: I think it might be quite interesting perhaps from your point of view that you probe a little bit in terms of [pause]
TO: Ok.
RJ: Speaking of crews. We’re sort of skipping a whole lot there because [pause] having returned from the United States or from Canada or the various elements of the air training groups abroad, Rhodesia, South Africa whatever [pause] Forgive me for rambling on.
TO: That’s ok. So do you want to go back to your first solo flight then?
RJ: Yes. First solo flight. Yeah. Yes, you see the pilot, the pilot training. Just let me gather my thoughts a moment [pause] over to you.
TO: Ok. What was, so your first flight was in a Tiger Moth?
RJ: Yeah. Yes, that’s right. Yes. I was invited to go to [pause] where did I go? I said the wrong thing. Oxford or one of the universities. Whilst there I did, I did my first solo flight because I remember coming home from this day out so to speak and my father quizzing me and saying, ‘Well, how did you get on?’ Or whatever and he seemed quite surprised that I should show any aptitude. I don’t know why. I don’t know that he was dismissive. He wasn’t. He wasn’t putting me down but he, well he quizzed me as to how I got on and I said, ‘Well, I enjoyed the —’ whatever it was. The few days. Oh ,and had I flown the aircraft? ‘Oh yes,’ I said. ‘What do you mean? On your own?’ ‘Yes.’ Which I had. I’d done a solo flight. So at least I was climbing the ladder [laughs]
TO: So shall we [unclear]
RJ: Yeah, go on.
[recording paused]
TO: Can you tell me about your trip out to India?
RJ: Yes. We went out. I forget how many ships in convoy now but one of the first flights, one of the first, one of the first convoys I should say to go through the Mediterranean up to that point its usage had been denied to us. So we were making progress in terms of the activities you know. The war was gradually swinging our way. And you had a question there.
TO: Was your convoy attacked on the way to India?
RJ: Oh, to India. Yes, that’s right. To India. We, I can remember we were one of the first, we were one of the first convoys to go through and use the Canal for some time. So that was quite a tick in our favour. So that was a sense of achievement. Anyway, we, I can remember [laughs] this is a coincidence just by the way of an amusing aside I can remember when we got to Suez I can’t remember just where with a load of civilians. This was before we exit the canal or what but the troops, dear oh dear. We each had a moulded [trilby] a bloody great thing you know. It was cast in a structured fashion and there was a sudden whoop of joy and amusement expressed by the troops [laughs] aboard the ship and we went over to the other side of the craft and to see umpteen bowler hats floating in the canal environment you know. So this was some of the absurdities of the war. These are the amusing aspects. I could tell you there were some rather different aspects of it [pause] Who is your employer?
TO: Oh, the charity I volunteer for is the International Bomber Command Centre.
RJ: Oh, I see.
TO: They record the stories of veterans like yourself who served in the RAF.
RJ: Sorry?
TO: People like you who served in the RAF or people who remember —
RJ: Yeah.
TO: The RAF in the war.
RJ: So, how did you come by the job?
TO: Some of my, someone from the charity came across footage of one of my interviews and asked if I’d like to interview people in my area.
RJ: Oh, I see. Well, yes. Excuse me.
TO: Ok.
[pause]
RJ: Now, as far as that the standing of this book is concerned I felt there was enough material there. I suppose this must have been [pause] I’m just trying to think of what period of my life I got into that. But clearly I’ve, yes I felt there was a book if you like. If one was capable of meeting the challenge. There was enough interest there, or should be enough interest there possibly to have a go at producing something and obviously if I got somebody else to do the job I would have taken that route. But [laughs] as so often happens compromise comes into it.
TO: Can you tell me what happened when your convoy arrived in India?
RJ: Yes. Yeah, we got to yes to Bombay. Have you been to Bombay? Because it is really quite a, I mean I know India for quite a while having been, having been based there. Also done business in India and other places, Burma and so on post war. Sorry, your question was?
TO: Where did you go when you arrived in India?
RJ: Oh yes. Well, we went to, to Bombay. It’s a very impressive port and you go through, I forget now, I forget the name of the [pause] There we are with our wings in Canada and meeting up with some of the locals who were very hospitable. Those were the days when they referred to, the old folk referred to the old country. That’s not bullshit. That’s for real. There’s much idle chat about you know [pause] and there’s a photograph I’ve taken for the escape purposes [unclear] and there’s a, there’s a copy of the leaflets. Some of the photographs I’ve selected here illustrate points. Well, I’ve included them to fill in the background.
TO: So what was the port you were talking about?
RJ: Yeah. Bombay. Or these days it’s called Mumbai. There’s some quite decent photographs there.
[pause]
TO: So do you remember your first mission over Japanese territory?
RJ: Yes. Very well. Very well. I did not return to base that night and we were posted as missing. Missing and [pause] this is ringing bells. No. I can’t just get that together. But let’s get back to the first. The first raid. It’s a pity I haven’t got my logbook here. But we were taking a target. Try and picture Mandalay say there as you look at the map and then just a little bit displaced from there there’s a workshop, a rail workshop at [unclear] here you see. Your question was do you remember your first operational mission?
TO: Yeah.
RJ: Yeah. Yes because shortly before we attacked [unclear] the target we entered cloud. Fairly loose cumulonimbus, not a lot at all except a bit of a damned nuisance if you were trying to keep formation and so on. And the, worked as I could at keeping in a decent formation so that I could continue to do the job which was to go and attack a secondary target which was some distance displaced from the primary one and that’s what most of our chaps did. Now, on the way back from [pause] so we went down and attacked a second, a secondary target and then [pause] with about fifteen minutes to run, to go before we expected to pick out the Tenasserim Coast nothing appeared at all familiar which was of increasing concern as suddenly or gradually looming from the distance were not the levels and the [unclear] but yes and we get a different scene. In fact, a completely different scene in the sense that we were picking up targets, we were picking up signs of hilly countries, countryside. And the rest of the raid, the rest of the raid, let’s get into this is a bloody interesting piece of news. I’m having a chat with the navigator and I’m expressing concern that he hasn’t got the map sheets a hundred miles, to within a hundred miles north of the track and he is a little bit huffy in the sense that he is challenging my scepticism why hasn’t he got these you see. He’s saying well the scope or me were the close [unclear] we’ve got is taking us a hundred miles north of our, of our intended track so you know he felt that that part of it was that criticism was unfounded in the sense that it did reflect badly. Is this thing going on?
TO: Yeah. Fine. Yeah.
RJ: Anyway [pause] actually so in the meantime I’ve cast around and among the, among the not targets but among the features, the ground features is is one which occurs to me. Well, nothing, if nothing else this might be handy by the way of putting the aircraft down somewhere as opposed to baling out. Anyway, so, so your question was what happened. Well, you can’t stick around trying to bring up features you know. Trying to identify things which were going to help us to get back on track. To cut a long story short I make use of this ground feature which has come up. Yes. After casting around like a ship at sea looking for a port so to speak. Any port will do so to speak. Any port in a storm is I think the term I’m looking for there [pause]
TO: You mentioned you’d see this feature on the ground.
RJ: Yeah.
TO: What happened next?
RJ: Yes, that’s right. Well, what this thing comprised was the most extraordinary thing because don’t forget we were hundreds of miles north of our target area and I’m just wondering whether this is going to help us at all.
TO: Ok.
[pause]
RJ: Right. On the front and back pages on the inside I’ve produced what were then the known names you see. Which helps people to, if they wish to be reminded what these places [pause] Where were we there? [pause] Well, I [pause] having had a go at in civilian life I wasn’t very, I was keen to get back into the RAF. So in 1949 [pause]
TO: Sorry could we go back to that story of when you were on your first mission and you saw a feature on the ground?
RJ: Yes. True. Yes, right. So the feature on the ground with railway lines running down alongside and I’m thinking in the meantime [unclear] in the meantime I [Scott] the flight engineer is telling me we were, ‘Fifteen minutes to go skipper.’ It would mean putting the aircraft down somewhere or, yeah abandoning ship one way or the other. So yes. So having exhausted the search for the adjoining map sheet I have a little contretemps with the navigator about the absence of the adjoining map sheet. Quickly [unclear] and then as I say this feature, these railway lines down there it was a funny place. They were building a marshalling yard. I thought what’s it doing out here. This is [unclear] thinking you know all at sea so to speak. This isn’t coming across at all well. You’ll have to spare me a lot of agony of getting this sorted out at some point or another.
TO: So what did you do? Did you find somewhere to land?
RJ: Well, what I did was I reckoned this paddy field so to speak was capable of taking an aircraft like a Liberator practically out of fuel anyway. My instinct was to A, to try to preserve the aircraft. Well, first of all let’s get this right I gave the crew the option of either staying with me aboard the aircraft as I intended to put it down. Do my job. Do my best to preserve the aircraft obviously and look after my crew. So I then got over these , overfly these hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. Yeah hundreds and hundreds. It’s not to exaggerate beyond that trying to, trying to get these people to move out of the way because I then decided you see that I was going to have a go at putting the aircraft down and then I quizzed my crewmen in turn and I gave them the option. They all wanted to stick with me. So they would abide with their aircraft and their captain. So that’s that one sorted out.
TO: So did you land on the track?
RJ: No. I get one, we fire off every damned cartridge we could find in the aircraft. We are not getting anywhere very fast just trying to scare these people out of the way. So I’m over flying almost so to speak at zero feet and hoping that they will do the necessary and keep out of my way. Over to you.
TO: so did you manage to land there?
RJ: Yeah. That’s exactly what I did. And that aircraft not only did it survive the war but it was put back into use and it appeared on my station. Somebody said if I care to go up to the airfield I should be able to find something of interest. Which was my aircraft you see. So not only did we save the aircraft and not injure the crew nothing else to say there really.
TO: So, what happened when you all got out of the bomber?
RJ: Well, the first thing that happened was [laugh] All this other sort of theatrical or not theatrical is that my rear gunner Ted Holmes comes forward and shakes me warmly by the hand for having got the aircraft down safely.
TO: And had you landed in Allied territory?
RJ: Yes. Well, the first thing you know one of the first things to happen is for the chap in charge of the strip which is what it was at a place called [unclear] And the chap in charge of the airstrip was a lieutenant colonel who bear in mind we would have to look very carefully for. It’s probably recorded here somewhere.
TO: Yes. We can check that.
RJ: Hmmn?
TO: We can check later if you like.
RJ: Yeah. Yeah. Fine. So that’s, that was an interesting flight.
TO: So did you land —
RJ: In the meantime we were posted missing.
TO: So did you land at an airstrip that had paddy fields around it?
RJ: Yes. I suppose that’s a fair description of it.
TO: And were you unable to make a usual approach? You had to make the locals —
RJ: Yes. I sized the situation up. I didn’t do anything in a great dash of haste. I followed my co-pilots recommendation that I should perhaps fasten my shoulder straps which I wouldn’t normally do just in case the whole thing turned turtle which was a possibility. But of course I approached the, I gave the landing every possible chance of success and it came off. So what else is there to say there? That’s well that would take you see my first thing was to take immediate steps with the help of the, of the chap in charge of the strip was to try to get in touch with base to say that operation you know, whatever our aircraft number was is safely down so and so.
TO: So how did you find this air strip?
RJ: How did I find it?
TO: How did you come across it whilst flying?
RJ: I just came across it by chance. Pure chance.
TO: And were there any other aircraft down there?
RJ: No. No. We were just south in fact of quite a big American airfield which [pause] that’s about it.
TO: Ok. And last time we spoke you mentioned at a time when Zeros attacked other aircraft.
RJ: Yes. Yes. Yes. I wonder where [pause] I might have been giving you a sort of a better feel for the fact the [unclear] retiring of returning from a raid when everything has gone to plan and things can happen. Things can help you. In the general weather conditions for example. The Zero has got or so they had a certain mark of Zero would have cannon fire available. For the first shot or two anyway you see. Now, this could, this could be a considerable help to a person like myself in the sense that [pause] I’ll let you ask me the next question.
TO: You mentioned last time you’d seen Zeros attacking other aircraft in the distance.
RJ: Yes. Yes.
TO: With their cannons and then they were low on ammunition when they got to you.
RJ: Yes. That’s right. Yes. Exactly right. I think in that instant, I think firstly there might have been an occasion and there was possibly more than one or two when the Zeros had a limited amount of cannon stuff available to them initially but then I would not, they would not be able to you know having used that that would be it. Yes. If we think back to that time when yeah I’m pretty certain that it was on that occasion when I could recall seeing the wreckage of two burning aircraft in the bay and putting two and two together [unclear] on that [unclear] if I’ve got this right. What probably happened that day was the Zeros came over the top. They had the cannons available to them and there were the Americans high flying aluminium blazing in the sunshine. There were other formations ourselves included coming in and out of cloud. And [pause] yes. That’s almost certainly the case that the two, the two blobs of, I mean I’ve looked at this. I’ve been to the intelligence. What’s the name of the thing I’m trying to think of? [pause] Oh, that’s way back. Oh, that’s my ground crew here [pause] and my aircrew —
[pause]
TO: So yes you said you’d seen the wreckage in the bay.
RJ: Yes. Yes, I really, I’m tying this together as it were with various visits which I made to the, I was hoping to pick up [pause]
TO: You can check it later if you want.
RJ: Yeah. We sized up a clearing with a low fly past although it showed signs of being [unclear] touched down at the end it looked firm enough for a bomber but a bit further in to attempt a wheels down landing. If my judgement was right and we landed with our undercarriage down we stood a good chance of ending up with a completely undamaged aircraft. Alternatively, if I had misread the situation and the ground was too soft we would have incurred considerably more damage than in a belly landing and more than that sustained injuries to the crew. I decided a wheels down landing besides an attempt at a wheels down landing emphasising the need for everyone to brace themselves for such time and to remain braced for long enough throughout the landing run. With the amount the fuel remaining the risk of fire would be at least reduced to a [pause] should the fuel system be ruptured. I think we’ve given it a fair whack.
TO: Just one more story I’d like you to tell if that’s ok.
RJ: Yeah. Sure.
TO: You said there was a time you were on a raid to Bangkok and that the bombs didn’t release properly and you had to, they had to be released manually. Could you tell me about that story please?
RJ: Yes. Well, that’s going back. That’s going back a bit. That was a different raid.
TO: Yeah.
RJ: There I bring by implication I would, I would risk casting my crew, and some members of my crew in a poor light which I have no wish to do and have no intention of doing. This is a long time passed since.
TO: So what else do you remember about seeing Zeros?
RJ: Well, I can recall seeing Zeros [pause] I can recall seeing the Zero out to the starboard side heading in the direction as the nose of our aircraft in the same angle. Sorry your question was?
TO: You saw Zeros to the starboard side.
RJ: Yes [pause] Yes, I’d seen zeros on the starboard side which was not a, not something I particularly enjoyed doing. We’ve given it a fair shot I think. I’m sorry. Did I get your name correctly?
TO: Thomas.
RJ: Thomas. John.
TO: Thomas is my name.
RJ: Thomas. Christian name Thomas.
TO: Yeah.
RJ: So what’s your surname?
TO: Ozel. Can I just ask, sorry —
RJ: Yes. Have we got a biro over there somewhere? Is there a biro there?
TO: Hold on a second I’ll just —
[recording paused]
TO: What’s your happiest memory from the war?
[pause]
RJ: Well, very happy memories of it. I can’t think of anything in particular quite frankly. Not spontaneously if it comes to that. I mean obviously one has I have a family. I mean I don’t have a personal family. I’m of a family of half a dozen children but I’m the second oldest of six children so that’s a bit of background as far as I am concerned which helps perhaps to cast a bit, helps to focus your attention.
TO: Was there heavy anti-aircraft fire when you were at the target?
RJ: Yes intense.
[recording paused]
TO: Sorry, you were saying about anti-aircraft fire at the targets.
RJ: Yes. It would vary a lot. In fact, the standard practice would be for you see to start with we would be attacking these targets or the practice was to be attacking these targets in formation from ten thousand feet. That was the sort of the idea of having us all in a box formation so you dropped everything together if that was feasible. You had to play a little bit by ear but I’d say generally I have to ask you at this point in time I’ve spoken quite freely and without any hesitation at all. I’ve been candid. But I have a right and a duty to protect my, the reputation of my own interests as well as the professional reputation of the Royal Air Force.
TO: So is there anything —
RJ: So, the thing to do, I don’t know what you intend to do with the material but it would be helpful if you were as candid in your dealings with me as you have been, as I’ve been with you in relating my experiences.
TO: Well, I can give you and your family a DVD of this footage.
RJ: Yeah.
TO: For you to have and to keep and if you like we can, we can donate a copy of this to the charity that I volunteer for and they will keep it in their Archive if you want. But that’s your choice if you want that or not.
RJ: Yes. Ok. Well, perhaps we could think on that.
TO: Ok. No problem.
RJ: I don’t believe in doing things at half cock. I like to be properly briefed and people to be, supporting to me to be properly briefed as well as the interviewer. So I’d like, I’d like you to keep me informed as to what you would to do with the material.
TO: Ok.
RJ: That said [unclear]
TO: I forgot to ask. What year were you born?
RJ: ’23.
TO: Ok. And is there anything you want to add about your time in the RAF?
RJ: No. Except that I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the Royal Air Force.
TO: And were you mainly focusing on targets in Burma and Thailand?
RJ: Yes. That, it would be helpful perhaps to just reflect on what my total experience has been in terms of yes [pause] it’s 4 o’clock now is it? Yes. Well, I think we’ve —
TO: Shall we call it a day it a day then?
RJ: What?
TO: Shall we pause there for now then?
RJ: I think so. Yes.
TO: Ok. Well thank you very much for telling me what you’ve told me. It’s been very fascinating.
RJ: Not at all. Not at all.
TO: Just so the people on the recording know the gentleman we were interviewing was Group Captain Reg Jordan.
Collection
Citation
Tom Ozel, “Interview with Reginald Walter Jordan. One.,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed July 17, 2026, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/59683.