Interview with Dixie Deans. One

Interview with Dixie Deans. One

James ‘Dixie’ Deans joined the RAF in 1936 as a direct entry pilot. He trained at White Waltham and Abu Suweir. At the outbreak of war he flew Whitleys from Linton on Ouse. His aircraft was struck over Berlin and although he managed to get to the area of the German/Dutch border he could get no further and the crew baled out. Dixie became a prisoner of war at several camps — Stalag Luft 1, Stalag Luft 3, Stalag Luft 6, Stalag Luft 357. He was elected as camp leader. He describes the make-up of the camps, the shortage of food, discipline and morale.

00:55:35 audio recording

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ADeansJAG[Date]-020002

Interviewer: Mr Deans — reel one. When did you first join the RAF, Mr Deans?
DD: In January 1936. I joined as a direct entry pilot.
Interviewer: What did that mean in those days?
DD: In those days they had this recruitment drive and it meant that I joined, I was then living up in Yorkshire and I joined and was sent down to Air Ministry for medical, various medical introductions. Then to White Waltham for ab initio flying training. I initially did my flying training at White Waltham where I got my wings prior to being posted. Oh, we went from there up to Air Ministry and from Air Ministry out to Abu Suweir in Egypt where I did my service flying training. This White Waltham training was just initial flying training just to get airborne and to get my wings.
Interviewer: How long were you in Abu Suweir?
DD: In Abu Suweir? I was there for about a year I think. I’m just going from memory now but I’m sure it was that I did the service, the service training as distinct from the ab initio training at White Waltham. This was the service flying training and I was trained on Hawker Harts and Audax machines.
Interviewer: Were you at Abu Suweir when the war broke out?
DD: No. No. That was in ’36 and no this was purely for flying training, service flying training and I did the whole course of training there and I’m sure it was about to go and it was very very nice from my point of view because the weather was nice and it was nice and easy. Free and easy. I spent a holiday in Cyprus which was fairly close by and well, generally it was very enjoyable.
Interviewer: Where were you when the war broke out? Where were you stationed?
DD: At, well initially I was at Dishforth and then we were evacuated to Linton on Ouse. I think I was at Linton when the war broke out. We were using a satellite from Linton. I can’t remember the name. It was just a field up north from Linton and we were actually operating from there and Driffield also we used.
Interviewer: What type of planes were you flying when the war broke out?
DD: When the war broke out I was flying Whitleys. I was a pilot of a Whitley. A Whitley bomber.
Interviewer: What were Whitleys like to fly?
DD: Well, lots of people complained. They were very basic machines and very ugly looking machines but that’s, I found them very nice to fly and very easy to fly. I was used to them and found them very comfortable to fly and very obedient machines. I felt I could do anything I wanted. Even get out of them in a panic.
Interviewer: Did you have to do that?
DD: Eventually yes. When I was shot down.
Interviewer: Which year were you shot down in?
DD: I was shot down in 1940. September ’40. I think roughly it was the 10th of September 1940. I was on my, oh roughly about twenty four operations I had done. I had done two to Berlin and two to Italy and this one was a Berlin trip when I was shot down. I’d been hit over Berlin which had damaged one engine and the sealed tank was leaking. I reckon it must, I must have had quite a big hole in the petrol tank and I just realised the petrol was going down in my gauges.
Interviewer: Which squadron were you flying with when you were shot down?
DD: I’ve got to think about these things now. Sorry. I was initially 78 Squadron. Then 102. I think I was with 102. I switched during this period. I switched several times so that’s why there’s a bit of uncertainly. 77. 102. 102 was the squadron I was flying with I think at the time.
Interviewer: Were you hit by ground fire?
DD: No. I, yes, yes. I beg your pardon. It was over Berlin. I was hit by this flak which just crashed, and as I was coming in to drop my bombs and it was a direct hit that really shook the machine and nearly turned it over. Anyway, I found that I was able to right the machine, put it on a level course and I was quite happy about flying the machine and was able to turn about and come back on my tracks. And again I had to cover Berlin, a lot of the city of Berlin in order to get my heading back to the Dutch coast to head back for Yorkshire and I think I’d realised that I was damaged and was unlikely to make it all the way back to Yorkshire. So I headed in the right direction and hoped for the best and oh I calculated that I would get some to the Dutch coast and possibly the North Sea before I had to bale out and in fact it was practically on the German Dutch frontier that the crane, the plane crashed and I just had to bale out and [pause] oh I can’t remember now the name of the village. But it, the plane nearly hit one of the frontier posts on the German/Dutch frontier and I know all the crew were picked up within a very short area of that.
Interviewer: Can you describe how you yourself were picked up?
DD: Yes. Well, I decided, I’d no accurate information as to where I was but my calculation was that I was near the German/Dutch frontier so I decided to walk in a westerly direction and I only had flying boots on of course as we all did and they weren’t, they weren’t very comfortable for walking in. But I headed west and was walking for, it seemed like a long long time. A day or so heading westerly. Eventually I was exhausted and found a nice big hay stack in a hayloft and I climbed in and rested on this hay and went to sleep I suppose after, oh I think this was on the night after and really must have gone sound asleep when the shadow of German, combination of Germans and Dutch police all armed with Tommy guns sort of ratted me out and they obviously knew who I was roughly. That I was a member of the crew of this aircraft that had crashed and so they ratted me out and they took me to the nearest police station where they were obviously trying to collect all the members of the crew. And the Germans, all the local German military were by then coming in to sort out these terrible English fliegers and well, I just had to wait and see what was going to happen. Of course, the thing is I could speak a bit of German. I’d been to Germany on holiday just the year before and a couple of years before that so I felt very confident about talking German and of course these Dutch people could talk German but not very well. They were not very clear in their speech. Then there were sufficient Germans came in immediately afterwards and well, I could understand them and could make myself understood.
Interviewer: Where did they take you to?
DD: Well, now they, they took me to the local town where they gave me a cup of coffee and, and did a bit of interrogation and then when the transport came up the next day the, I wasn’t sure where we were going but they took me right down to Dulag Luft. That’s the, the initial, Dulag means Durchgangslager. Transit camp. In other words it was an interrogation camp where they took all the Air Force people. It was all run by the Luftwaffe.
Interviewer: Where were you accommodated at Dulag Luft? Under what kind of conditions?
DD: Normal conditions and just barrack blocks. They were just barrack blocks and bunk beds. Normal crude conditions. Nothing palatial but not really bad and normal barrack conditions I would say.
Interviewer: What type of temperature conditions did they accommodate you under?
DD: Well, again I found it [pause] pretty hot I think my recollection is. I’ve heard a lot of people say that there were, they were really under great heat but I didn’t notice any severe heat nor severe cold. It was just normal I felt.
Interviewer: Can you describe to me how the interrogation was conducted?
DD: Well, I would say that it was a normal interrogation with not just one person but various people were coming in and asking questions and going on asking questions and a bit repetitive I felt, the questions. But they seemed to know what they were about and I at that stage felt I, well I think I was very tired and couldn’t care less. I just wanted to get out of their hands. Well, Dulag Luft also I knew or I had an idea it was just a temporary transit, transitory business and I was, we’d only be there for a short period which was right. That’s what it turned out. I was only there for about a week I think altogether.
Interviewer: Was it one person or more who conducted the interrogation?
DD: Well, there were several. Not just one. There was several and a series of persons. We sometimes, there were sometimes two or three together but then there was people coming and going and firing different sorts of questions and I felt they were trying to catch me out you know. Making sure that people asked the same sort of questions from a different angle or differently worded to try and make sure that either I was telling the truth or that they were getting the right angle to it.
Interviewer: How did you respond to their questions?
DD: Well, my response. I suppose I’m normally a truthful man and I felt I had nothing really to hide. I was an Air Force pilot and I had flown this aircraft and well I just answered them truthfully. I wasn’t trying to hide anything or or anything of that kind so I’d no reason to do other than speak the truth.
Interviewer: Did you just give them name, rank and number?
DD: Yes. Yes. Name, rank and number and that was all I volunteered initially but then it was obvious they, they although my aircraft crashed they retrieved, and they were quick to point this out, they retrieved quite a few of the papers from the aircraft. So they were able to tell me that I had been to Berlin and bombed Berlin so that there was no point in either denying it or trying to say otherwise because they could tell me from the papers they’d got from the aircraft.
Interviewer: Was it conducted in a harsh way or in a kind way or what?
DD: Not particularly harsh and not particularly kind. It was just a normal interrogation I felt. I felt at the same time that I’d better, you know play along with them and let them have what they want provided it wasn’t counter to my own feelings that you know I was at the wrong end of the stick to get shirty with them so I had to play along.
Interviewer: Some people have said that some of the POWs at Dulag Luft collaborated unnecessarily with the Germans. Have you heard of anything of that kind?
DD: Yes.
Interviewer: Or did you experience that?
DD: Well, yes. I’ve heard quite a bit of that too and well I know that several people did collaborate too much with them but in fact I heard stories and I know that they are true of people who were given the freedom of the local township and were allowed to go out and things like that but there was never any approach to me along those lines. I wouldn’t have played ball anyway.
Interviewer: Were these British POWs who behaved in this way?
DD: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: What did the other POWs think of them?
DD: Well, a lot of these people, I wouldn’t say a lot but there weren’t many. Only one or two and they didn’t leave Dulag Luft. They stayed there for a long time and there weren’t as we normally were posted up to the main camp they didn’t go. They just stayed at Dulag Luft and were given a good time.
Interviewer: What do you think that the Germans got out of this collaboration?
DD: Well, that I find it’s difficult to answer. They obviously [pause] I’m not sure.
Interviewer: So, well can we go on to where you were taken to after you’d been at Dulag Luft?
DD: Yes. Well, as I say I was at Dulag Luft probably about a week and then we were shipped off through Frankfurt on the train going north and we weren’t sure just where we were going and it turned out that we went up to Dulag Luft. Not Dulag but Stalag Luft 1. That was the German Air Force Camp Number 1 which was up on the Baltic.
Interviewer: What was the name of the place?
DD: Barth. B A R T H. Barth in Volgelsheim in Pomerania.
Interviewer: Can you describe how you found the situation at this camp as far as the POWs were concerned?
DD: Well, to start with it was a camp right on the west side of the Baltic near Stettin and, oh let me see. How many people would there be there? Probably about three to five hundred people in the camp and they all were living in huts with three tier bunks and all seemed to be well established and had been there for quite a while and there were a lot of people there that I knew. People that had been on the same squadron as me before they were shot down. In fact, there was quite a number of people that I knew and had, they had all come through the same squadrons as I had and it was almost like a mini reunion as I came in and so many people there who were friendly and probably I had trained at some stage.
Interviewer: What did the situation seem to be at Barth as far as organisation and morale amongst the POWs?
DD: Well, it seemed quite normal and happy. At least it was happy in that it was happy for me to meet people that I had known previously and that was a pleasure in itself. Just meeting up with old friends that I had thought had just been killed. I had no idea what had happened to them and also was happy to find people who remembered me myself and well before long I realised that I was amongst a bunch of old friends. And also I was soon to realise that there wasn’t much food about because at that time the Red Cross parcel situation hadn’t really got going. So we were dependent on the Germans for food which was a bit meagre.
Interviewer: Could anything be done to improve the food supplies?
DD: Well, I [pause] personally I don’t think there was anything that one could do personally excepting that one or two people did write home in their personal allowance of letters, cards or letters and ask for parcels of chocolates and things to be sent to them and to ask the local, local authorities to try and get food through. Because at this stage as looking at it in retrospect at this stage the food system had more or less collapsed with all the prisoners that were taken at Dunkirk and the tremendous influx of prisoners. It sounds as though I’m trying to excuse the Germans but I think that’s a factual explanation of the situation that there was so many thousands of prisoners were taken in such a short period of time the Germans just couldn’t really cope with it all and also the whole postal system broke down and the parcel situation broke down. The parcels were coming initially from Switzerland to the camps in Germany and well they just, they were, our own Air Force were blowing the transport and railways up with bombs and so we were really killing supplies to POW camps really and well as I say the system had broken down mainly through our own efforts of bombing railroads and anything on the roads. Road traffic. We’d made it impossible for the Red Cross parcels to get through and there was a complete break in Red Cross parcels at that time.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: Dixie Deans — reel 2. You said that the POWs attempted to get private parcels from home.
DD: Yeah.
Interviewer: When they got those private parcels did they tend to keep them just for themselves or was there any sharing?
DD: They were purely personal parcels. In fact, in many cases they contained items individually requested by them. For example if somebody was interested in sports they sometimes they would contain equipment for that particular sport other than just purely food stuffs.
Interviewer: What I mean is was there much comradeship shown between the POWs or did they tend to be selfish?
DD: No. They, there was a lot of comradeship and sharing. In fact, many people shared their parcels. In fact, people used to live in what they called Combines. Groups of prisoners all sharing together with all the food wherever it came from. Whether it was German or parcels from home they used to share it amongst their little Combine or group and so people weren’t really selfish in the circumstances at all.
Interviewer: How many people would be in one of these Combines?
DD: That varied very much from two or three to a dozen. Usually people stuck together in crews. The whole crew of their bomber used to stick together in a Combine although that did not always work out because naturally there were different personalities involved and people didn’t always agree and had differences. So Combines sometimes broke up and then reformed and that varied quite a bit from time to time as people got either more used to less used to the group they were living with so they either split up or changed Combines.
Interviewer: Would people in the same Combine tend to be in the same hut with each other?
DD: Yes. Generally. That usually was the case. Yes. In fact, very often in the same room. The same room of the same hut. You see, in Luft 1 at Barth there were three blocks and there were probably about twelve, thirteen rooms in each block so that usually a crew were in one block. In one room in one block. But one had friends from one’s own particular squadron in the same block or even one of the other blocks. It was Luft 1 at Barth was a comparatively small camp. Three to five hundred. So there were people from one’s own squadron or people one knew in various parts of the camp usually.
Interviewer: Were these Combines actually referred by the POWs as Combines? Is that the word they would have used?
DD: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. They were usually Combines. Rather like little families. People fed together and shared together everything they had in the way of goodies or parcels or personal parcels. If you had a personal parcel come through which sometimes happened then one tended to share that amongst people in your Combine.
Interviewer: Would there be elections in these Combines?
DD: In the Combines themselves not usually no. We had elections later on as far as the actual representatives. Representative to represent the camp or the Combine. Not the Combine only but the whole camp in dealing with the Germans and the Swiss and the Red Cross. The, we definitely had this election system for all. Probably to elect a block leader for example as distinct from the Combine leader. The block leader was usually the senior rank in that block. But then that didn’t necessarily mean if a man was senior rank that he was capable of getting the confidence of the people in the block. They usually had to elect somebody who was acceptable to everyone else.
Interviewer: Did you say that there were such things as Combine leaders as well?
DD: Combine leaders only by [pause] not really but there probably were but it was just a personality thing. I mean Combines are rather like a family, a Combine and one ate together, one lived together and usually one lived in a small section of a room together and while they lived more or less like a family together and usually I suppose they did [pause] somebody assumed leadership amongst that Combine. But that, there wasn’t really an election for that. That was just a question of one accepted that amongst the group that one was, one chap was the boss if you like.
Interviewer: Did you yourself get elected to any position in Barth?
DD: In Barth, yes. Yes. In Barth they started having an election for the camp leader there because there had been a lot of dispute and argument about the chap who was the camp leader at the time. That fellow, Hall you are talking about he was the camp leader at one stage and they had two or three others. There was one fellow who followed Hall who was, oh there were so many different stories going around about this fellow working for himself and in a very selfish way and he was tied up with the Red Cross. He had been the Red Cross representative and people kept complaining that this chap was arranging everything for his own benefit in his cloak as the Red Cross representative. They considered he was, he was lining his own coffers and looking after himself at the expense of the rest of the community and eventually they, they called out for a re-election and there was an election then and that’s when they all clambered for me to become camp leader and they did elect me camp leader.
Interviewer: Could an election be held at any time?
DD: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Provided the time was ripe and fruitful and there was enough agitation going on and enough, in other words people were willing for an election to happen.
Interviewer: Was the election done by show of hands or by secret ballot?
DD: Oh no. By ballot.
Interviewer: And was everybody entitled to vote?
DD: Oh yes. Yes. Everyone. Without any question. In fact, it wouldn’t really have been very useful unless everyone voted.
Interviewer: Was this every one of all the British POWs—
DD: Yes.
Interviewer: Or could any foreign POWs vote as well?
DD: Anyone in the camp whatever their nationality.
Interviewer: So you represented not only British POWs but every nationality did you?
DD: Yes. Yes.
Interviewer: Can you tell me what your jobs were as camp leader once you were elected?
DD: Well, the jobs were mainly a question of keeping peace and quiet in the camp. To get everything to run smoothly including the distribution of food and the [pause] any problems had to be, that had to be dealt with whether they were internal among the prisoners or or with the Germans. I had to of course deal with the Germans and at this particular camp and later camps I managed to arrange with the Germans to have conferences with them every week. Conferences with myself present, the German commandant and the German lager officer and the security officer.
Interviewer: What did the Germans call the camp leader? Did they have a special name for the camp leader?
DD: The lagerführer.
Interviewer: What was the vertrauensmann.
DD: Oh, vertrauensmann. That was a [pause] vertrauensmann was the elected man. The man of confidence.
Interviewer: Was he the same as the camp leader?
DD: They are all words for the same thing. Vertrauensmann was really, translated means man of confidence. In other words the elected man was the vertrauensmann. He was the elected representative. A man of trust.
Interviewer: What were the main problems as far as you personally were concerned in dealing with the Germans?
DD: Well, problems were really a question of dealing with the Germans in these conferences I had was really a question of putting to them details of requests and alterations in the system on behalf of the POWs. I had to meet with the Germans and convince them that it was a good thing and I usually tried to convince them that it was in their interest as well as ours that they should meet our requests and usually it worked.
Interviewer: Were they easy to deal with or difficult?
DD: Oh, I found they were fairly easy. Mind you I [pause] I had a certain amount of self-assurance in that I had been to Germany on holiday and also I could speak their language pretty fluently. I was dealing with the Germans day in and day out so I knew my limitations and their limitations. I knew that I could get over to them what I wanted and what I wanted was what the camp needed and so I had a fair degree of confidence in what I could ask them and what was reasonable to ask them and what I could insist on and well that made a big difference I think with that knowledge and the practice of being able to talk their lingo.
Interviewer: As far as the question of morale is concerned amongst the POWs did you find that it was difficult to encourage a good level of morale?
DD: Not difficult. No. I found that I was fairly au fait with all that was going on in the camp and I [pause] to put it another way I had my finger on the pulse of the camp and I knew if anything was going wrong what it was that was causing the upset if there was an upset and I could do something to put it right.
Interviewer: Can you remember what the particular morale problems were? The types of things which would depress people.
DD: One main thing was a shortage of food and a lack of it and usually that was a question of either the Germans not giving us an adequate supply of things they were obliged to supply or lack of Red Cross parcels when they started coming in and that of course usually we could arrange for ourselves.
Interviewer: Did anybody ever try to commit suicide?
DD: Yes. Yes, we did have that happen unfortunately.
Interviewer: Can you remember any specific instances?
DD: Yes. There was a fellow who I think he tried to cut his wrist and then climbed up into the loft of the wash place and there was blood dripping all over the place. A very messy thing. And this fellow was fortunately caught in time and was, well he was taken away and pushed into the hospital in the township nearby. That I think was in Sagan. Luft 3. But I don’t think we had many other cases of suicide attempts.
Interviewer: What had caused him to commit suicide? Was it known?
DD: It’s always difficult to put one’s finger on the cause. I think it was as usual, it was a combination of things. News from home which wasn’t very helpful and the general news of the war of course. We weren’t doing too well which again depresses one. I think there was also quite a bit of trouble at home in his case. I think his wife was running off with somebody else and generally although I think with suicides in general there was usual, usually quite a complicated number of things that all add up and pile up to make one lose one’s mind.
Interviewer: Was it ever necessary for you and the other POW representatives to arrange for punishments of POWs for misdemeanours or indiscipline?
DD: Sometimes. But one would only do that as a last resort and I can’t think of any particular case where one had to and I always felt that that was really you really at rock bottom if you had to ask the Germans to intervene and to punish somebody. Although I wouldn’t have hesitated doing it if I found it necessary but fortunately never did and the thing is we ran the camps on a committee system and people had always opportunity of raising any points of difficulty that they wanted sorting out.
Interviewer: Would there be one committee from all the POWs in the camp?
DD: Yes. Yes. We had a committee for the whole camp. We also had, we had leaders. Room leaders, block leaders and compound leaders. They were a whole series of command posts.
Interviewer: How many would be on the committee approximately?
DD: God. Let’s see now. One, three for a block. Probably about ten altogether in a compound.
Interviewer: And were they all elected?
DD: Yes. Yes. All elected. In fact, I once remember somebody commenting on the fact that we were, we were the only piece of elected representative in the system working in Germany. It was put in a much more pleasant way than that. A more expressive way too.
Interviewer: Would you have officials on the committee like a chairman and secretary?
DD: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: What would the officials be beside the chairman and the secretary?
DD: Chairman, secretary and one or two executive posts but they were mainly all run almost like a town council. At least we hoped it was. We tried to work that way.
Interviewer: Was there ever any need for a treasurer?
DD: Normally yes but no. Not really.
Interviewer: So the committee didn’t have any funds to run.
DD: No. No.
Interviewer: Can you tell me about the question of escape as far as you were concerned with it at Barth?
DD: Yes. Well, the thing is that I insisted. In fact, I didn’t have to insist. People came and told me if there was anything afoot and usually I was asked for approval for some attempt to escape and I always had to give my approval and blessing otherwise it just couldn’t take place. I could advise in many cases where I could see it was a hairbrained scheme and hadn’t not much hope of success and also I could advise in some cases where, when there were occasions when there were obvious timing advantages of escaping at a particular moment of time where something was going on that the normal person wouldn’t know about.
Interviewer: When an escape attempt took place did the Germans attempt to hold you responsible in any way as camp leader?
DD: They sometimes tried but usually I could put them off because, well I was fairly close with the Germans and I could usually convince them that. I could convince them of all sorts of lies. Things that weren’t true but I could convince them that it was so. For example I sometimes pleaded complete incompetence and lack of control when something like that happened. ‘Nothing to do with me. I wouldn’t have ever sanctioned a thing like that,’ when I knew damned well that I had encouraged it and made it work. On the whole I was able to convince the Germans that I was holier than thou and fortunately they believed me.
Interviewer: Did you find the Germans gullible or not?
DD: Up to a point, yes but they could be pretty tough if they got in their heads that they what they had in mind was right. But generally speaking I could convince them and gullify them if you like. But I think that was mainly through the fact that they had to trust me for an awful lot and so I used to play a bit against them if I [pause]
Interviewer: Did you actually take part in any escape attempts yourself at Barth?
DD: Not attempts from Barth. No. No. I was out on [pause] I had been, I can’t remember if it was to see a doctor or a dentist but I’d been to have a medical party outside the camp in the township of