Interview with R W Harvey
Title
Interview with R W Harvey
Description
R Harvey trained as a gunner before being posted to RAF Lossiemouth to join an already established crew. While based at Leconfield he married and his wife moved close by. He was sure that the weather conditions were such that there would not be operations one night and he stayed with her in the lodgings and failed to return to the squadron. He discovered to his horror that operations did occur that night. He was sentenced to the corrections unit at Sheffield. On one operation their aircraft suffered catastrophic engine failure just as they emerged from clouds but the pilot was able to regain control of the aircraft and the crew voted to carry on with the operation.
Date
1995-09-11
Spatial Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:50:57 audio recording
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Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
Identifier
AHarveyRW950911
Transcription
Interviewer: There you go. Just excuse me if I’m leaning forward a bit it’s so we know where we are.
RH: When I left Gunnery School I came home on leave. Dalcross Gunnery School. I came home on leave. I’d been on leave seven days when I got a letter from the RAF. I’d got to report back to Lossiemouth to make a crew. So, in effect I’m one that never went to a crewing.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: I never went to a crewing meeting at all. When I got up to Lossiemouth I met up with Bill Goodrum and apparently they’d already been crewed up with another mid-upper gunner but somehow or another he didn’t fit in with Reg. Reg was the rear gunner.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: He didn’t fit in and they got rid of him so they wanted another and I was sent up there. So I didn’t choose and I wasn’t able to choose which crew I was going to fly with.
Interviewer: Was Lossiemouth an OTU then?
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: You wouldn’t remember the number then?
RH: Twenty. Number 20 OTU. And that’s how I came to be a crew member with Bill Goodrum. Well, it were fortunate that Reg took a liking to me straightaway. Reg, the rear gunner. He took a liking to me straightaway and that were ok and I were ok with them because I’m a person who can fit in with anybody. So that were one unfortunate thing. I weren’t able to pick my pilot like everybody else.
Interviewer: Would you have picked someone else do you think?
RH: I don’t, I’ll never know.
Interviewer: No.
RH: I liked Bill Goodrum. He were a good pilot and I were quite happy to fly with him and to [pause] to me he were a, he were a stickler for rules and regulations. Everything we did as a crew had to be within rules and regulations of flying and that’s why I think we survived really. So, to go from there I think me and Reg knew straightaway because as soon as I got up there Reg had been flying with Bill on Wellingtons. So it didn’t need two of us because there were only a rear turret.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: So as soon as I got up there Reg went on holiday so I didn’t meet him while he came back. We were ok. In fact, we have a photograph somewhere taken when we were all walking around Elvington. I think he might have given it you.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: I don’t know for a fact. We went from there to Acaster Malbis. It were something to do with the RAF Regiment to make us fit.
Interviewer: Yeah. I think, I think, I think Bill mentions something about that.
RH: You know [laughs] and then we went to Riccall on to, on to four engines and that’s when you know we really started. Reg decided he couldn’t fly in the mid-upper turret and I wasn’t that keen on the rear turret so that’s where we were. I was mid-upper and Reg rear turret. Bill, in his wisdom, what he thought in his wisdom because it were cold in the winter of ’44. It were cold flying and Bill thought he’d swap us around. I’d fly on one trip every now and again in the rear turret and Reg would fly in the mid-upper.
Interviewer: Was that, was the reason for that to get the air experience do you think?
RH: Reg, it was cold. It were really cold.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: I mean sometimes it would be between minus twenty and minus thirty up there and the rear turret were colder than me because actually my legs although I was a mid-upper is set above in the middle there you know set above his legs was down a little bit warmer and he thought it would be ok but I wasn’t comfortable in the rear turret and Reg wasn’t comfortable in the mid-upper turret. We just said, ‘We’ve done it this once. Leave us alone.’ And ok that were fair enough. That were Bill.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: So as it came [pause] in between me meeting up with Bill and Riccall me and Sylvia my wife decided to get married. We decided to enjoy it and we went to Beverley, to Leconfield. I [unclear] and then it were my wedding day. Bill Goodrum were my best man and it were fortunate that we’d some relatives from Hull attended my wedding and they invited Sylvia to go back and live at Cottingham. That’s just two or three miles away from Beverley. We thought it was smashing. I’d got her on the doorstep you know. When we were stood down I used to cycle to see her and cycle back and there were one trip we did after I got into this house I’d taken her back, we went to le Havre, came back. That were ok. We got pummelled a little bit but that were nowt. And then it were le Havre again. A second trip. And we kept getting stood down and the clouds were so low you [unclear] before [unclear] and I said, ‘No. I’ll not be going. I’ll stop another hour.’ You know what it is. A young married couple. And I stopped until it were about 3 o’clock in the morning while I decided I would cycle back. Now, when I got the northside of Beverley I heard all the engines. Oh, that’s done it. That’s torn it. Missing. So I got back and they’d been re-crewed up with a mid-upper gunner and I raced around the perimeter track to the dead centre and Bill said, ‘No. I’m sorry. You’re too late. You’ll have to go back and see the CO.’ And they gave me three weeks in Sheffield.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: And that left me four trips short on that crew. When I came back from Sheffield I must have been the fittest man on that squadron. I were really fit. And that’s when we started again. I said to Bill, I apologised to Bill. I reckoned, you know I couldn’t do enough for Bill. I apologised because I knew it were wrong. I split that crew up and with hindsight I could have said it was for morale although I don’t think it would have stood it you know. ‘I’ll forego some leave. I’ll do anything but let me fly with Bill Goodrum.’ But that’s hindsight.
Interviewer: Was it, was your CO Viney at the time?
RH: What?
Interviewer: Was it Viney. John Viney.
RH: Viney. Viney. That’s the chap. Yeah. All he said when I walked in he said, ‘I’m sorry.’ He said, ‘But it’s three weeks at Sheffield. Go and pack your kit.’ There were no like leaving my kit at Leconfield and I had four bags of kit. All my flying gear and everything and I had to take them to Sheffield. That’s where [unclear]. Then we came back and we did two or three trips and then it came to Oostkapelle. I remember that trip because it was the fright of my life. We were above cloud base for about four thousand feet and we were going in low. We couldn’t see nothing. Bill had probably told you we were told to come under the cloud and bomb underneath the cloud base and I thought one thing I never liked. Over the target and then you coming below the cloud base with all them aircraft. Actually I’ve got the figures somewhere. Two hundred and seventy seven aircraft on that trip. On that mission.
Interviewer: Did you see many of them when you were going out then, Bill?
RH: Well, it were a daylight.
Interviewer: So they were all around as you were going out then.
RH: Yes. It were daylight and they were all around. You could see them all around. They were in waves and I think we were in the first wave. And as soon as we dropped through cloud that’s when it happened. As soon as we shot underneath these clouds that’s when it happened. The engine went poof and we could feel it had stopped and I just heard, we were really going and I heard Bill shout, ‘Dinghy. Dinghy.’ And then —
Interviewer: What does dinghy dinghy mean?
RH: Dinghy.
Interviewer: Does that mean that get the dinghy ready?
Interviewer: We were going to land in the sea.
Interviewer: Oh right.
And, ‘Dinghy. Dinghy,’ meant prepare to ditch. And Bill was very highly strung. ‘Dinghy. Dinghy.’ He wanted to let us know to be prepared because we were already pretty low under the cloud base and we were really going down so if you’ve ever been in a mid-upper turret if you were swinging about its awkward to get out. It’s not like the rear turret where you open the doors, grab something behind you and pull yourself out. Anyway, by the time I’d dropped my seat I was just going to step down, I looked down and there’s Reggie, the rear gunner. He were already there. He’d collected, he’d collected his axe. That were in his hand because the rear gunner had to have this axe near him and if we couldn’t unfasten any escape hatches it were his job to crack it and he had it in his hand. I thought well even I’m at the bottom if I drop down I’m going to be in with him and then all of a sudden I felt Bill, I felt it levelling. I thought well I’m better off here and so I stopped. I lifted my seat up and stopped and Bill had got it on a level keel. And then we were still pretty low. We were still pretty low. We weren’t all that high and I thought well he’s managed to you know get it on an even keel.
Interviewer: Presumably you were out of the cloud by this time were you Bill?
RH: Oh, we were pretty low and we were well away from target. We’d actually come around, you know [unclear] shot down over the sea and he levelled it up and we hadn’t dropped our bombs or anything, we’d still got a full bomb load and he decided then to ask the crew, ‘Shall we go around again?’ We’d only three engines and that’s it. ‘Shall we go around again?’ I forget which one of them said it but he said, ‘Well, we should ask —’ my name, my crew name were Rosie, I don’t know if Bill —
Interviewer: Bill mentioned it. Yes. Yeah.
RH: Reg gave me that because there were two Bill’s in the crew which was, ‘Best call him Rosie,’ and then Goodrum, Bill to stop any confusion. Anyway, they said, ‘We’ll ask Rosie.’ The only [unclear] person and I thought it were unfair and I said, ‘Yeah, we’ll go around again.’ I thought you’ve asked me. ‘Yeah. We’ll go around again. We’ll complete it.’ So we went in a big wide circle and Bill gradually climbed and climbed and climbed while we were about two thousand feet and as we came around on to the bombing run Reggie put his guns facing aft and I put mine facing back because we wanted to give Bill all the help we could. If we started [wuthering] our guns and waving about and switching our turrets then it would lose trim in the aircraft and he wouldn’t be able to pull it off. Although we were facing back I was able to keep turning my body and looking and of course at first I thought there were aircraft you know and there were fighters. There were no fighters. But as I looked around you could actually see them firing. They were firing rifles and all sorts. You could actually see them. But when we got nearer to the target and they knew where we were going then it waned off with the, there were people who were taking shelter. And there were only anti-aircraft, big anti-aircraft gun letting go at us but they were a bit off. We kept like that and I kept looking around and I thought to myself well if I start moving my guns and having a go and making them stuck soon they won’t be firing and Bill was always saying, ‘Never fire your guns unless it’s a good run .’ He were a chap like that. So we just set there and watching for fighters all the time. Me and Reg looking back.
Interviewer: Where were these four or five fighters then? They were above you were they?
RH: There was some.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: You know, but they were well away. Now, I do believe they were our fighters but somebody in the crew said they weren’t. I said I know they were. They were well over. You know they were about four identified you see because by the time we had gone around again there was some breaks in the cloud you know. I was more interested in them that was firing from the ground because it was Bill said, and Arthur said Bill was going at about two thousand feet but I felt we were lower. And anyway we kept on this run and kept it. We kept looking, you know and they were pretty near with the anti-aircraft and actually I did take my hand off my controls. I was just holding my hand at the side like that you know. [unclear] and I thought if I keep my hands on the controls I don’t go like that. And then next thing I heard Arthur, you know, ‘Steady. Left a bit. Left a bit.’ I thought go on Arthur drop the bloody thing and all of a sudden he just said, ‘Bombs away,’ and as soon as he said, ‘Bombs away.’ Bill bounced and we were off with the photograph you see. It could be you know photograph is taken because after every bombing run you dropped your bombs and you keep on that even keel until the bomb flash is taken and then you start turning but on this occasion we were the only aircraft there and everybody was let him go, you know.
Interviewer: So was any, were any of this ground fire actually striking the aircraft, Bill?
RH: Yeah. Some of it were hitting but it were all 303s. The anti-aircraft was you know hot and all you got for that was some like they were like throwing pebbles up again at the machine you know but it wasn’t coming through. Not like some targets we’d been where it was and I can remember one piece came straight through the turret. They were just whizzing by and left a small hole in the Perspex. And it were unfortunately we were [unclear] so when we were coming through but on that occasion 303 it couldn’t penetrate because it were a spent. You know a spent force with but they were actually firing and it’s you know. I thought it had stopped on an even keel. I do believe you know you could take a photograph. It would have taken people firing at us.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: But because be bounced straight away.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: It were like taken inland.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: And that were Oostkapelle.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Funnily enough we went the next day to Walcheren Island again. Something beginning with M but we didn’t go in Z-Zebra. We had to go in the spare aircraft. R-Roger.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: But we didn’t go. We didn’t go back in Z- Zebra. We went to the Ruhr Valley three days after.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did you have any reservations about going back to Walcheren the next day then Bill having had a rather disturbing experience the day before?
RH: Well, yeah. Reservations. It didn’t matter which you were going to. I’ve got to be quite honest and say that if there is an aircrew man, a man who went on operations that say they weren’t frightened then I’m quite willing to stand up and say he were a liar. It didn’t matter which trip you went on you had reservations. You were [unclear] you know. It just depends where you were going.
Interviewer: Perhaps we could, if we could come back to that just in a minute Bill and just hang on to Oosterkapelle just for a minute but when the engine packed in and you actually came out of the cloud —
RH: We were actually underneath the cloud when it when it was hit.
Interviewer: Oh right.
RH: We were just, we’d only just come through the cloud. In fact, Reg might have, the tail end might have still been in when it hit. So they must have had it, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. I see. That was it and then you sort of did the dive steepen then and that’s when you —
RH: The dive steepened and —
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: We had to cover.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. And it were a steep dive at the beginning but Bill wrestled and wrestled with it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: And Arthur couldn’t help him because Arthur you know were getting down in the bomb bay.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: But I think then when Bill shouted, ‘Dinghy. Dinghy.’ Arthur had jumped up then and come up and give him a hand.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: But we used to [pause] it wasn’t, I mean every crew says it about their pilot but you knew you were safe with Bill Goodrum. You knew you were safe. I had a couple of times before [unclear] I think actually he deserved his DFC but we had reservations from time to time about that before a crew gets a DFC well some aircrew refused it. Bob refused his DFC later on in life. His RAF life. The rest of the crew got [unclear] but then they were all in it together.
Interviewer: Well, actually —
RH: Same reservations.
Interviewer: Yes. Actually Maurice, Maurice said the same thing. I haven’t really spoken to Maurice about his experiences yet. He’s very keen for me to get everybody else’s down on paper so that there is something tangible about 640’s existence. And when I was talking to him on the phone just a few nights back I was saying, ‘Well, of course you were telling me about the DFC that Mills got —’
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: And when Mills died Maurice had approached Mills’ family and said, ‘Well, really we all earned that DFC and I’d like to buy it off you if you don’t want it for yourself.’ And I said well tell me about that then. You tell me about what you felt about that particular operation. He says, ‘Aye.’ He said, he said, ‘I thought, I thought you’d ask me that.’ He says, ‘I’ll have a think about that.’ You know but I know what you mean and I —
RH: You see, Bill Murray [unclear] that aircraft and really got it back on an even keel and he was you know because you never know what happens when you are going to ditch. And when Larry became a, Larry the navigator when he became a PO and went across to the other Mess he automatically got a DFC because you get backdated. We think it were backdated to Oostkapelle.
Interviewer: That’s a bit —
RH: And then when Arthur, you went down to see Arthur were made a PO he got a DFC. We think it was backdated to Oostkapelle. When we met up with Bob [Odding] the wireless op he stayed in the RAF Club [unclear] and when he became an officer they offered him the DFC. I think it were for, you know Oostkapelle and he refused it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: He refused and this is what he tells us. He refused it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Over recent years I’ve got to know an old, an old flyer very well and sadly he just died a couple of weeks ago. I was at his funeral last week. Actually he ended up as base gunnery leader. John Hibbert. I don’t know whether you knew him from that time.
RH: Who?
Interviewer: Don Hibbert. He served with, he did a tour with 10 Squadron. He did a tour with 158 and when he was with 158 he was base gunnery leader for Pocklington and [Misson] and one or two others you know. The Leconfield was one. But he picked up the DFC and a DFM.
RH: Right.
Interviewer: And he always said that the DF, he always held the DFM in high Regard.
RH: Well —
Interviewer: Because he said you don’t get many of those being handed out,’ he said, ‘DFCs —
RH: Well it’s a funny thing you see with the DFC there were no monetary award where with a DFM they were supposed to get fifty quid.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: That you could enquire about that.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: And this was why old sergeant, flight sergeant are saying they won’t give you the DFM because they’ll have to pay you the fifty quid.
Interviewer: Oh, I see [laughs] I see. Yeah. Well, that’s a, that’s a strange way, that’s a strange way of looking at the current [unclear] isn’t it?
RH: That’s what they used to say.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: You never saw DFMs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Dished out like DFCs.
Interviewer: I know. Well, actually I’ve noticed that as I’ve been reading —
RH: Now, at Oostkapelle there were actually two hundred and seven. Two hundred and seventy seven aircraft on that one. On that ops day. [pause] This is Kelly’s book. Kelly was —
Interviewer: Ah yes, your son.
RH: You know, my eldest lad.
Interviewer: Well, he might be interested in a copy of this when it’s all done then eh?
RH: Yeah. Twenty eight. Two hundred and seventy seven aircraft. Of them eighty six were Lancasters, a hundred and fifty five were Halifaxes, thirty six Mosquitoes and there were two losses. One Lanc and one Halifax on that trip. Now, we don’t know whether that one Halifax was supposed to be Bill Goodrum’s crew because it were reported that Bill had gone in to, had been shot down had gone into the drink you know because we were going down then there were people that see it and report it. Now, I don’t know whether that there was one Lancaster went missing and one Halifax and it could have been that one Halifax could have been Bill Goodrum’s but —
Interviewer: Actually, that would be reasonably easy to check on that. The Halifax would be a 4 Group Halifax wouldn’t it?
RH: Oh yes.
Interviewer: It was only 4 Group and 6 Group that were operational weren’t they?
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: So that would be easy enough to check how many squadrons actually took part, Halifax squadrons took part and then just look at their operational record books.
RH: Well —
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: It could be they lost one but that loss would have been in between base and going to the target.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: And from target back to base, you see.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
RH: Yeah. So, yeah you took it. Look at all these figures. Actually 640 figures.
Interviewer: I must have a look at that.
RH: They have the figures for, for Bill Goodrum’s trips.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: Only.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
RH: There is a booklet. A book, a thick book and in all aircraft and all the aircraft taking part, all types of aircraft taking part and it’s like a day-to-day diary of the Royal Air Force Bomber Command.
Interviewer: Is this the Bomber Command War Diaries? Martin. Martin Middlebrook and Chris Everitt.
RH: I think so.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. A big one.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. I have that.
RH: Well, the first time I saw it I were on holiday in Canada. 1983. I picked it up and it were fifty dollars you know probably twenty five quid. Too much I thought for a book and I put it down and then when I got home I thought well I should have bought it and I’ve been trying to get one ever since.
Interviewer: They’re difficult to get now. I mean I do have a, I have the —
RH: Arthur. Arthur has a copy. Arthur has a paperback effort or somebody gave it to him and he loaned it Kevin and Kevin put all these —
Interviewer: Got all the gen from. Yes.
RH: Got all this for me.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: You know, what —
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: This was actually, you know what Bill Goodrum’s crew went on.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: But we also got figures. [unclear] figures and happened in Lancs and sorties. Sorties are you know [unclear] —
Interviewer: Martin Middlebrook does that. Yeah. He —
RH: [unclear]
Interviewer: Yes.
Rh: You know. That one. That one.
Interviewer: Would you say —
RH: That trip up here more or less, you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: If you can own a copy of that.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: That’s a copy.
Interviewer: I’d love to have a look through that before I go if —
RH: This one.
Interviewer: Perhaps when we’ve finished. Well, to the file if that’s alright. When we’ve finished having a chat.
RH: That was Bill Goodrum’s [pause]
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: Everything Bill Goodrum’s crew went on.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And he goes over.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And also this one here.
Interviewer: Now, there it is. Zoutelande was the other place you went to the next day.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: This one is Bill Goodrum’s map. An old map.
Interviewer: Is this the route to Walcheren?
RH: That’s it. It’s Bill Goodrum’s operational map.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah. [unclear] Geoff Smith who apparently was a big pal, still is a big pal of Bill Goodrum’s also sent me a copy of one of these for Cologne. Yeah. I’m familiar with these. I’ve seen these before. He’s on his way to, oh there it is down there. There’s the route down there.
RH: Well, that one were, he gave us all one. He must have kept them somehow.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: It’s a bit battered like.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Which it would be.
Interviewer: Yes, I bet. I’ve got copies of those Bill.
RH: Yeah. Other than that Kevin has everything else.
Interviewer: I’ve got a copy of this as well actually.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: From, yes.
RH: Well, that’s Ron, the bomb aimer’s. The bomb aimer’s logbook that one.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. [unclear] Arthur’s
Interviewer: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Would you say that Oostkapelle was probably the worst trip you went on?
RH: No. No. No. That was on a daylight raid and we were in, we were in [pause] I think the fifth wave and as we were going in on us dogleg we almost went in on a dogleg. We could see the first two waves. If I could look in my logbook I could tell you [pause] it could be [pause] I think it could be —
[recording paused]
RH: They all had different waves the same these targets you know and if I could read it it could be [pause] it could have been Koblenz. Jülich or Koblenz. I think it could have been Koblenz because it was a bit of a long trip. I remember it very well. Anyway, we were going on our dogleg and we could see the first wave come through and come through the target and we’d been there. We knew they were taking a bashing and you could see it because I mean you could see with the anti-aircraft smoke and everything that they were really taking a bashing and I happened to mention it to Bill because in the mid-upper turret you could see everything that was going on. There was nothing you missed. I said, ‘It looks a bit rough over there, Bill.’ He said, ‘Aye but it might have calmed down a bit by the time we get there.’ That particular raid shrapnel came through the turret top and when we went on the bombing run on that one we really took a thrashing and I think that were one of the worst.
Interviewer: Was that, I think the strategy was to sort of put up a box barrage. The other fighters —
RH: That’s right and we had to go through. Actually, the funny thing about it there were no fighters. There were no fighters at all and although we were going in in about six or seven different waves it was a big raid and I remember going in three different heights. If we were told to go in at low, lowest which whatever, Bill would go in at lowest and it was, on a bombing run it were my job you know besides fighters I could see dead above us and on this particular raid I think we were in the middle but when I looked up above and I said to Bill, ‘There’s a chap up there with his bomb doors open, Bill.’ And we were on our bombing run and it’s not a nice sight. A hundred yards up there’s another aircraft with the bombing doors open and you knew you know any second he’s going to let go. So, ‘Ok Rosie.’ And just moved a little bit to get a little bit to one side because he wasn’t going to shift and Bill just moved to one side. But we were still getting pounded and when you got pounded you really shook. In a Halifax you really shook. But we got through it ok.
Interviewer: That was Jülich because Bill was telling me about that.
RH: Yes.
Interviewer: He said that you sort of mention the fact you just sort of banked off to port slightly and then he says these bombs came past and they were so —
RH: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: They were so close he could see the markings on them.
RH: You could.
Interviewer: He couldn’t read the markings but he could see the markings.
RH: I had to tell him many a time and Bill would just move to one side and then the next minute you’d see these bombs sail past and it wasn’t you know that way you were going down with them. That were a nasty raid. Another —
Interviewer: Actually, just, just to interrupt you there Bill I think something like that happened on the raid to Wangerooge. Did you go to Wangerooge in April of ’45 because 640 squadron lost one aircraft then. It was flown by a Pilot Officer Pugh and it was because an engine had been taken out by a bomb falling —
RH: Ah, no. I don’t think we went on that because that [pause] no. No. We didn’t. We didn’t go to that in ’45. No [unclear] Gelsenkirchen [unclear] I might have said we went to Gelsenkirchen and someone might have a different name inside their logbook because they might have put down that actual village where they come from. But no but we have seen you know we saw some nasty sights. I saw one, one day we were on a raid. It wasn’t too bad. It might have been a direct hit and we were one of the lucky ones you know but for that crew and it just blew up. The next thing you know all you can see is different pieces going down you know like the wireless sets or owt like that going down and going by you but if you let it get to you then —
Interviewer: Yes. I was going to say, I mean how do you deal with that then because I mean you would know sometimes a piece of your own aircraft going down, your own colleague because of the tail markings and so on.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did, how did you cope with that?
RH: From a mid-upper point of view he saw everything that were going on. A mid-upper gunner saw everything. The only thing you didn’t see was your own mob going away, you know. A rear gunner, his job was to see what was going on and to report it. You’d think, you weren’t talking all the time because if you were on your bombing run that belonged [pause] that fighter that time on the bombing run belongs to the bomb aimer. It was his job to keep going. He couldn’t do with anybody interrupting unless it was really [pause]. The same as, you know, ‘Bill, there are bomb doors open.’ Just put it to one side and that were it.
Interviewer: If as a mid-upper gunner you could see everything that was going on during the day does that mean that you preferred to fly at night where you could see very little?
RH: Well, no not really because the funny thing at night if it were, if it were a cloudless night with stars above you would see it near and you were looking all the way around you you know and you wondered but with positioned with the sky seemed to come you know in the distance. The sky and any [unclear] You were like in a void. All you could see was stars and going down and you were flying. You were thinking where the hell fire is earth? And you were disoriented for a little bit you see.
Interviewer: So when you were in your turret at night then you would be just traversing port starboard all the time were you?
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: With the, with the rear sort of going starboard port going on.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: The rear gunner weren’t so bad because he could only go so far around and so far around, you know. I could put mine both and do a full circle.
Interviewer: Yes. So did you do that occasionally then?
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Well, sometimes I mean when you were doing a full circle weave then port wasn’t so, you were supposed to trim it in but then Bill [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: So far around to the port beam and [unclear] rather than keep swinging it around, you know.
Interviewer: Did you find that a bit of a strain then being alert all the time?
RH: The eyesight.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: But as I said Bill were a stickler for rules and regulations and if it were a sunny day and we knew we were going at night me and Reg, the rear gunner used to walk about with dark goggles all day through. Right through to dusk. We would never take them off unless we went inside a building. We walked all day through with dark goggles on so when it came to night you know we were used to it. We got used to it so it helped us a hell of a lot and we were very good you know and we could see everything.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you have any encounters with night fighters at all?
RH: Well —
Interviewer: Because some folks did and some folks didn’t. It seemed to be almost the kind of luck of the draw in a way.
RH: No, because we did have encounters but at night time —
Interviewer: Do you remember a Focke Wulf 190 going over your starboard wing?
RH: We’d have reported it to Bill. I mean you’ve got to remember the rest of them, the wireless operator he was in his own enclosure. He wouldn’t see much. The navigator, he couldn’t see much. Depending on what the bomb aimer were doing he wasn’t seeing a lot. So if you were saying there’s a, you know there’s fighter on our port side well, they’d start panicking and through Gunnery School every gunner learned it was his job to bring that aircraft back and every gunner had learned that at night time there could be a fighter on the same route as what you’re going and it could be a hundred yards off and he’d willing you to fire at him. At the same time he’s got two mates on his other wing waiting for you firing.
Interviewer: And therefore identify your position.
RH: Yes. And all of a sudden boom. You’d be watching that one and he’d be away but his two mates would be on the other side and shoot you down. So, although me and Reg knew what were going on we never fired them guns. Not at night time. We didn’t get to at daytime because there was generally our own fighters escorting us so we didn’t. We didn’t have much problems. No. It were every air gunner’s job to bring that aircraft back and be as crafty as what they were if there were one there and that —
Interviewer: Does that mean that you never fired your guns in anger at all then Bill?
RH: Not in anger at all. No.
Interviewer: That’s good.
RH: And that actually for the simple reason Bill Goodrum had kept to the flight plan. If the flight plan said you went down to Reading, from Reading somewhere down the French coast at a certain point and at a certain height and you went on then to another dogleg Bill Goodrum and Larry the navigator that’s the way they went. After you dropped. After you dropped your bombs you had to come back a certain way. A lot of them took short cuts. A lot of them took short cuts and never came back. Bill Goodrum never took a short cut. I used to say to him, ‘Bill —’ as a crew we would say, ‘Bill, we’re fed up of being the last back to Leconfield.’ All the coffee has gone, all the free cigarettes had gone but we came back. He brought us back because he’d stick to the flight plan and if you’re in the flight plan there’s not many people with you. Never took a short cut and that were the simple plan. Yeah. So we never did fire our guns in anger. We did a good job me and Reg. We wouldn’t take [pause] although I think we would have had a go if Bill would have said yes but it were his way of doing it.
Interviewer: Were you ever in a situation then where when you were coming back I mean was there the possibility of actually having to ditch?
RH: Well, there were [pause] no. Not really. Once you’d got it on an even keel. Once you’d got it Bill were able to coax to refresh the engines and he were able to come back but once, I can’t remember which trip it was and it was the first time we’d had some trouble with [unclear] and we were having to come with the bomb bay open to come back up and it were cold. It was. It were that cold that if you had a minute from pumping it had frozen up and you had to start to gradually pump again.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And me and Arthur pumped them up and it were our job.
Interviewer: Did you actually get back to Leconfield then on three engines from Oostkapelle or did you have to sort of call somewhere else?
RH: No. We came back here with the engine selected because everybody was surprised we got back. I think it were reported that we’d gone in and everybody was surprised, and happy to see us back because at Leconfield while we were there Bill Goodrum’s crew was the crew everybody wanted to know because we went about smiling. We went about laughing because we were quite happy with what we were doing. We were doing everything we could and Bill Goodrum being certain of that although at times he was so dedicated he did a lot of practice bombing and of course we used to tell him go over Bridlington Bay we could take our fishing licence there and go fishing. We were always there dropping practice bombs you know. But everybody did say and you’ll hear people say now Bill Goodrum’s crew were the only crew that ever smiled. [unclear] we were happy. But the funny thing about it you see if we were a bit dejected any of us we would all go into Beverley and go and spend a half an hour with Reg’s mother. She lived in Beverley and if you were a bit downhearted you’d go see Reg’s mother and she was a lovely person and she’d sit you down, have a cup of tea and where she used to get stuff from for sandwiches we’d never know.
Interviewer: So the whole crew used to go around there sometimes did they?
RH: Pardon?
Interviewer: Did the whole crew used to go along there sometimes?
RH: Oh aye. Aye. If you were a bit downhearted. If something had gone wrong. Go to Reg’s mother. We had some lovely times with Reg’s mother [unclear] and he had twin sisters. They were a little bit younger than Reg. I’ve seen them since. I’ve met [unclear] you’d go to Reg’s mother, sit there and she’d talk to you. I mean with being married and after that trouble we had you know when I had to go to Sheffield I went back as soon as I could to see Reg’s mother and she said it was just one of those things. Every six weeks you know you got yourself seven days that I was able go home and see her and then go back quite happy and that were a wonderful thing. And I think that’s what made us a happy crew. We knew that we’d somewhere we could go and she was like a mother to us.
Interviewer: Given, given that air operations were really dodgy at best, at the best of times why is that folks actually volunteered? Because they were all volunteers or had been and you were saying earlier that you can’t think of any, if anyone were to say they were on aircrew and there were times when they were never scared than you’d say that they were lying.
RH: I don’t think anybody could really tell you. You volunteered but for me actually I’d no need to go. I were a miner. I were a miner and when I was twenty years old I were on regular nights working down at the main colliery and the chap who were working in the offices in the main colliery he were my age and I said, ‘Look. This is no good [unclear] ,’ I said, ‘Let’s go join up.’ But not joining the Army and he didn’t want to go in the Navy. So I said, ‘Let’s go in the Air Force. Air crew.’
Interviewer: He joined up to get off regular nights.
RH: Yeah [laughs]
Interviewer: Right.
RH: True. So they wouldn’t take us until we were twenty one and as soon as we were twenty one they were losing a lot of aircrew then. They took us. But unfortunately, his name was [Haughley], mine were Harvey. He went a fortnight before me and he went onto Lancs and we only met up once after we both started flying and he were going back and he were going to do his thirteenth and I think we were going to go back and I suppose we were [unclear] It was 5 o’clock in the morning, 5 o’clock bus some walked into Doncaster because there were more to Doncaster and catch separate trains and he went under. He went down on his thirteenth and, you know it were just one of those things. We joined up together but we were miners so you ask me now why did we volunteer? You volunteer for these things not knowing what it was actually like until you do it and then when you do it you see what makes you keep going? You’ve a set of RAF records here [unclear] . Nobody were forced to go on any trip. That’s what it meant to volunteer. And if you said, ‘I’m not going on that one. I don’t want to go on that one.’ They’re not going to put you in that aircraft but on your records would be LMF and no man wanted LMF on his record so he kept doing it. It’s a dreadful thing LMF I think. But and you’ve got, we had a wonderful crew. A wonderful spirit so it wasn’t as bad for us as it was for some of the crews.
Interviewer: Then this idea of crew spirit used to be absolutely crucial.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Folks were going because they didn’t want to let anyone down. Everybody becomes very much reliant on everybody else.
RH: What was crucial was a good pilot. A pilot who knew what he was doing. He’d let you get away with some things but he’d stop you if you’re taking advantage he would stop you there. Not in a nasty way but he’d stop you dead.
Interviewer: Would you say you were a superstitious crew then Bill? Some crews had their own particular superstitions. Their own rituals or their own mascots. You were in charge of the horn.
RH: I were you in charge of the horn. To look after it. To take it into the aircraft and bring it out. Once I took it into the aircraft then it went up to the pilot. It ended up with Bill.
Interviewer: Did you always do that in a particular kind of way then, Bill?
RH: No. Not really.
Interviewer: No. So what was —
RH: One doesn’t like, I never did, I never did forget it because it was always in my locker. I wouldn’t have liked to have got to that aircraft and then said, ‘I forget it. It’s in my locker.’ I wouldn’t. No.
[recording paused]
RH: It’s ok.
Interviewer: Would you just tell me what your particular, what you had to do with this horn or what you always did before an operation and during an operation. What did you do with this? You picked it up from somewhere.
RH: Well, nothing in particular. Nothing you know. It was on the aircraft. We weren’t superstitious. No. We weren’t. I never saw them. It was my job when we got into that locker room to get all my flying gear on. Go and book my parachute out. Once I’d got my flying gear on I picked that horn up and it were in my hand and it never left my hand.
Interviewer: So where did you pick the horn up from?
RH: It was in my locker.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: And it was in that locker. I remember the lockers had like a wire front.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: But I don’t, when I was at [correction] school I don’t know any.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yes.
RH: I don’t know if they took it with them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: If they got into my locker. They could get into my locker because there were some spare keys lying around. People had spare keys.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did, did you do, did you do things with it then when you were, once you got into the aircraft?
RH: No.
Interviewer: Did you put it in a particular place or —
RH: No.
Interviewer: No.
RH: I do remember. I do remember once that it were a bit rough. I think it were air, you know conditions were a bit tough and Bill were taking [unclear] [laughs]
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And he thought he were putting it you know, he opened this little side window and he thought he would put his arm out [unclear] but it weren’t going in that. It were actually going [unclear] underneath it.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
RH: You know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: So there was no ritual. We just took it. There were no —
Interviewer: Just in case because you inherited this from Bill Weinberg didn’t you?
RH: We got it off the Dutchman.
Interviewer: The Dutchman.
RH: He passed it on to another crew.
Interviewer: Van [Gleet].
RH: And there you know they went through. There were no ritual. I just picked it up in my locker. It were in my hand and I’d go and pick my parachute up in that hand and it never left that hand. Then when we got into the aircraft I put it down then on to the rest seat. You know the other side [unclear] and then Bill would take it home again and that’s where it stopped and no it was just a good luck charm and that were it to us and it were a good luck charm.
Interviewer: You survived. Yeah. So it obviously worked.
RH: All those operations.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And actually it were someone brought up [pause] it came from a garage in Elgin.
Interviewer: Yes. For thirty four and sixpence. It cost thirty four and sixpence.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes. I’ve come across a lot of references to, to it yes. So I’m obviously going to write a little bit about that. Would it be possible just to have a quick scan through that book Bill? Would you
RH: When I left Gunnery School I came home on leave. Dalcross Gunnery School. I came home on leave. I’d been on leave seven days when I got a letter from the RAF. I’d got to report back to Lossiemouth to make a crew. So, in effect I’m one that never went to a crewing.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: I never went to a crewing meeting at all. When I got up to Lossiemouth I met up with Bill Goodrum and apparently they’d already been crewed up with another mid-upper gunner but somehow or another he didn’t fit in with Reg. Reg was the rear gunner.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: He didn’t fit in and they got rid of him so they wanted another and I was sent up there. So I didn’t choose and I wasn’t able to choose which crew I was going to fly with.
Interviewer: Was Lossiemouth an OTU then?
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: You wouldn’t remember the number then?
RH: Twenty. Number 20 OTU. And that’s how I came to be a crew member with Bill Goodrum. Well, it were fortunate that Reg took a liking to me straightaway. Reg, the rear gunner. He took a liking to me straightaway and that were ok and I were ok with them because I’m a person who can fit in with anybody. So that were one unfortunate thing. I weren’t able to pick my pilot like everybody else.
Interviewer: Would you have picked someone else do you think?
RH: I don’t, I’ll never know.
Interviewer: No.
RH: I liked Bill Goodrum. He were a good pilot and I were quite happy to fly with him and to [pause] to me he were a, he were a stickler for rules and regulations. Everything we did as a crew had to be within rules and regulations of flying and that’s why I think we survived really. So, to go from there I think me and Reg knew straightaway because as soon as I got up there Reg had been flying with Bill on Wellingtons. So it didn’t need two of us because there were only a rear turret.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: So as soon as I got up there Reg went on holiday so I didn’t meet him while he came back. We were ok. In fact, we have a photograph somewhere taken when we were all walking around Elvington. I think he might have given it you.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: I don’t know for a fact. We went from there to Acaster Malbis. It were something to do with the RAF Regiment to make us fit.
Interviewer: Yeah. I think, I think, I think Bill mentions something about that.
RH: You know [laughs] and then we went to Riccall on to, on to four engines and that’s when you know we really started. Reg decided he couldn’t fly in the mid-upper turret and I wasn’t that keen on the rear turret so that’s where we were. I was mid-upper and Reg rear turret. Bill, in his wisdom, what he thought in his wisdom because it were cold in the winter of ’44. It were cold flying and Bill thought he’d swap us around. I’d fly on one trip every now and again in the rear turret and Reg would fly in the mid-upper.
Interviewer: Was that, was the reason for that to get the air experience do you think?
RH: Reg, it was cold. It were really cold.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: I mean sometimes it would be between minus twenty and minus thirty up there and the rear turret were colder than me because actually my legs although I was a mid-upper is set above in the middle there you know set above his legs was down a little bit warmer and he thought it would be ok but I wasn’t comfortable in the rear turret and Reg wasn’t comfortable in the mid-upper turret. We just said, ‘We’ve done it this once. Leave us alone.’ And ok that were fair enough. That were Bill.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: So as it came [pause] in between me meeting up with Bill and Riccall me and Sylvia my wife decided to get married. We decided to enjoy it and we went to Beverley, to Leconfield. I [unclear] and then it were my wedding day. Bill Goodrum were my best man and it were fortunate that we’d some relatives from Hull attended my wedding and they invited Sylvia to go back and live at Cottingham. That’s just two or three miles away from Beverley. We thought it was smashing. I’d got her on the doorstep you know. When we were stood down I used to cycle to see her and cycle back and there were one trip we did after I got into this house I’d taken her back, we went to le Havre, came back. That were ok. We got pummelled a little bit but that were nowt. And then it were le Havre again. A second trip. And we kept getting stood down and the clouds were so low you [unclear] before [unclear] and I said, ‘No. I’ll not be going. I’ll stop another hour.’ You know what it is. A young married couple. And I stopped until it were about 3 o’clock in the morning while I decided I would cycle back. Now, when I got the northside of Beverley I heard all the engines. Oh, that’s done it. That’s torn it. Missing. So I got back and they’d been re-crewed up with a mid-upper gunner and I raced around the perimeter track to the dead centre and Bill said, ‘No. I’m sorry. You’re too late. You’ll have to go back and see the CO.’ And they gave me three weeks in Sheffield.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: And that left me four trips short on that crew. When I came back from Sheffield I must have been the fittest man on that squadron. I were really fit. And that’s when we started again. I said to Bill, I apologised to Bill. I reckoned, you know I couldn’t do enough for Bill. I apologised because I knew it were wrong. I split that crew up and with hindsight I could have said it was for morale although I don’t think it would have stood it you know. ‘I’ll forego some leave. I’ll do anything but let me fly with Bill Goodrum.’ But that’s hindsight.
Interviewer: Was it, was your CO Viney at the time?
RH: What?
Interviewer: Was it Viney. John Viney.
RH: Viney. Viney. That’s the chap. Yeah. All he said when I walked in he said, ‘I’m sorry.’ He said, ‘But it’s three weeks at Sheffield. Go and pack your kit.’ There were no like leaving my kit at Leconfield and I had four bags of kit. All my flying gear and everything and I had to take them to Sheffield. That’s where [unclear]. Then we came back and we did two or three trips and then it came to Oostkapelle. I remember that trip because it was the fright of my life. We were above cloud base for about four thousand feet and we were going in low. We couldn’t see nothing. Bill had probably told you we were told to come under the cloud and bomb underneath the cloud base and I thought one thing I never liked. Over the target and then you coming below the cloud base with all them aircraft. Actually I’ve got the figures somewhere. Two hundred and seventy seven aircraft on that trip. On that mission.
Interviewer: Did you see many of them when you were going out then, Bill?
RH: Well, it were a daylight.
Interviewer: So they were all around as you were going out then.
RH: Yes. It were daylight and they were all around. You could see them all around. They were in waves and I think we were in the first wave. And as soon as we dropped through cloud that’s when it happened. As soon as we shot underneath these clouds that’s when it happened. The engine went poof and we could feel it had stopped and I just heard, we were really going and I heard Bill shout, ‘Dinghy. Dinghy.’ And then —
Interviewer: What does dinghy dinghy mean?
RH: Dinghy.
Interviewer: Does that mean that get the dinghy ready?
Interviewer: We were going to land in the sea.
Interviewer: Oh right.
And, ‘Dinghy. Dinghy,’ meant prepare to ditch. And Bill was very highly strung. ‘Dinghy. Dinghy.’ He wanted to let us know to be prepared because we were already pretty low under the cloud base and we were really going down so if you’ve ever been in a mid-upper turret if you were swinging about its awkward to get out. It’s not like the rear turret where you open the doors, grab something behind you and pull yourself out. Anyway, by the time I’d dropped my seat I was just going to step down, I looked down and there’s Reggie, the rear gunner. He were already there. He’d collected, he’d collected his axe. That were in his hand because the rear gunner had to have this axe near him and if we couldn’t unfasten any escape hatches it were his job to crack it and he had it in his hand. I thought well even I’m at the bottom if I drop down I’m going to be in with him and then all of a sudden I felt Bill, I felt it levelling. I thought well I’m better off here and so I stopped. I lifted my seat up and stopped and Bill had got it on a level keel. And then we were still pretty low. We were still pretty low. We weren’t all that high and I thought well he’s managed to you know get it on an even keel.
Interviewer: Presumably you were out of the cloud by this time were you Bill?
RH: Oh, we were pretty low and we were well away from target. We’d actually come around, you know [unclear] shot down over the sea and he levelled it up and we hadn’t dropped our bombs or anything, we’d still got a full bomb load and he decided then to ask the crew, ‘Shall we go around again?’ We’d only three engines and that’s it. ‘Shall we go around again?’ I forget which one of them said it but he said, ‘Well, we should ask —’ my name, my crew name were Rosie, I don’t know if Bill —
Interviewer: Bill mentioned it. Yes. Yeah.
RH: Reg gave me that because there were two Bill’s in the crew which was, ‘Best call him Rosie,’ and then Goodrum, Bill to stop any confusion. Anyway, they said, ‘We’ll ask Rosie.’ The only [unclear] person and I thought it were unfair and I said, ‘Yeah, we’ll go around again.’ I thought you’ve asked me. ‘Yeah. We’ll go around again. We’ll complete it.’ So we went in a big wide circle and Bill gradually climbed and climbed and climbed while we were about two thousand feet and as we came around on to the bombing run Reggie put his guns facing aft and I put mine facing back because we wanted to give Bill all the help we could. If we started [wuthering] our guns and waving about and switching our turrets then it would lose trim in the aircraft and he wouldn’t be able to pull it off. Although we were facing back I was able to keep turning my body and looking and of course at first I thought there were aircraft you know and there were fighters. There were no fighters. But as I looked around you could actually see them firing. They were firing rifles and all sorts. You could actually see them. But when we got nearer to the target and they knew where we were going then it waned off with the, there were people who were taking shelter. And there were only anti-aircraft, big anti-aircraft gun letting go at us but they were a bit off. We kept like that and I kept looking around and I thought to myself well if I start moving my guns and having a go and making them stuck soon they won’t be firing and Bill was always saying, ‘Never fire your guns unless it’s a good run .’ He were a chap like that. So we just set there and watching for fighters all the time. Me and Reg looking back.
Interviewer: Where were these four or five fighters then? They were above you were they?
RH: There was some.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: You know, but they were well away. Now, I do believe they were our fighters but somebody in the crew said they weren’t. I said I know they were. They were well over. You know they were about four identified you see because by the time we had gone around again there was some breaks in the cloud you know. I was more interested in them that was firing from the ground because it was Bill said, and Arthur said Bill was going at about two thousand feet but I felt we were lower. And anyway we kept on this run and kept it. We kept looking, you know and they were pretty near with the anti-aircraft and actually I did take my hand off my controls. I was just holding my hand at the side like that you know. [unclear] and I thought if I keep my hands on the controls I don’t go like that. And then next thing I heard Arthur, you know, ‘Steady. Left a bit. Left a bit.’ I thought go on Arthur drop the bloody thing and all of a sudden he just said, ‘Bombs away,’ and as soon as he said, ‘Bombs away.’ Bill bounced and we were off with the photograph you see. It could be you know photograph is taken because after every bombing run you dropped your bombs and you keep on that even keel until the bomb flash is taken and then you start turning but on this occasion we were the only aircraft there and everybody was let him go, you know.
Interviewer: So was any, were any of this ground fire actually striking the aircraft, Bill?
RH: Yeah. Some of it were hitting but it were all 303s. The anti-aircraft was you know hot and all you got for that was some like they were like throwing pebbles up again at the machine you know but it wasn’t coming through. Not like some targets we’d been where it was and I can remember one piece came straight through the turret. They were just whizzing by and left a small hole in the Perspex. And it were unfortunately we were [unclear] so when we were coming through but on that occasion 303 it couldn’t penetrate because it were a spent. You know a spent force with but they were actually firing and it’s you know. I thought it had stopped on an even keel. I do believe you know you could take a photograph. It would have taken people firing at us.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: But because be bounced straight away.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: It were like taken inland.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: And that were Oostkapelle.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Funnily enough we went the next day to Walcheren Island again. Something beginning with M but we didn’t go in Z-Zebra. We had to go in the spare aircraft. R-Roger.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: But we didn’t go. We didn’t go back in Z- Zebra. We went to the Ruhr Valley three days after.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did you have any reservations about going back to Walcheren the next day then Bill having had a rather disturbing experience the day before?
RH: Well, yeah. Reservations. It didn’t matter which you were going to. I’ve got to be quite honest and say that if there is an aircrew man, a man who went on operations that say they weren’t frightened then I’m quite willing to stand up and say he were a liar. It didn’t matter which trip you went on you had reservations. You were [unclear] you know. It just depends where you were going.
Interviewer: Perhaps we could, if we could come back to that just in a minute Bill and just hang on to Oosterkapelle just for a minute but when the engine packed in and you actually came out of the cloud —
RH: We were actually underneath the cloud when it when it was hit.
Interviewer: Oh right.
RH: We were just, we’d only just come through the cloud. In fact, Reg might have, the tail end might have still been in when it hit. So they must have had it, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. I see. That was it and then you sort of did the dive steepen then and that’s when you —
RH: The dive steepened and —
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: We had to cover.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. And it were a steep dive at the beginning but Bill wrestled and wrestled with it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: And Arthur couldn’t help him because Arthur you know were getting down in the bomb bay.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: But I think then when Bill shouted, ‘Dinghy. Dinghy.’ Arthur had jumped up then and come up and give him a hand.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: But we used to [pause] it wasn’t, I mean every crew says it about their pilot but you knew you were safe with Bill Goodrum. You knew you were safe. I had a couple of times before [unclear] I think actually he deserved his DFC but we had reservations from time to time about that before a crew gets a DFC well some aircrew refused it. Bob refused his DFC later on in life. His RAF life. The rest of the crew got [unclear] but then they were all in it together.
Interviewer: Well, actually —
RH: Same reservations.
Interviewer: Yes. Actually Maurice, Maurice said the same thing. I haven’t really spoken to Maurice about his experiences yet. He’s very keen for me to get everybody else’s down on paper so that there is something tangible about 640’s existence. And when I was talking to him on the phone just a few nights back I was saying, ‘Well, of course you were telling me about the DFC that Mills got —’
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: And when Mills died Maurice had approached Mills’ family and said, ‘Well, really we all earned that DFC and I’d like to buy it off you if you don’t want it for yourself.’ And I said well tell me about that then. You tell me about what you felt about that particular operation. He says, ‘Aye.’ He said, he said, ‘I thought, I thought you’d ask me that.’ He says, ‘I’ll have a think about that.’ You know but I know what you mean and I —
RH: You see, Bill Murray [unclear] that aircraft and really got it back on an even keel and he was you know because you never know what happens when you are going to ditch. And when Larry became a, Larry the navigator when he became a PO and went across to the other Mess he automatically got a DFC because you get backdated. We think it were backdated to Oostkapelle.
Interviewer: That’s a bit —
RH: And then when Arthur, you went down to see Arthur were made a PO he got a DFC. We think it was backdated to Oostkapelle. When we met up with Bob [Odding] the wireless op he stayed in the RAF Club [unclear] and when he became an officer they offered him the DFC. I think it were for, you know Oostkapelle and he refused it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: He refused and this is what he tells us. He refused it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Over recent years I’ve got to know an old, an old flyer very well and sadly he just died a couple of weeks ago. I was at his funeral last week. Actually he ended up as base gunnery leader. John Hibbert. I don’t know whether you knew him from that time.
RH: Who?
Interviewer: Don Hibbert. He served with, he did a tour with 10 Squadron. He did a tour with 158 and when he was with 158 he was base gunnery leader for Pocklington and [Misson] and one or two others you know. The Leconfield was one. But he picked up the DFC and a DFM.
RH: Right.
Interviewer: And he always said that the DF, he always held the DFM in high Regard.
RH: Well —
Interviewer: Because he said you don’t get many of those being handed out,’ he said, ‘DFCs —
RH: Well it’s a funny thing you see with the DFC there were no monetary award where with a DFM they were supposed to get fifty quid.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: That you could enquire about that.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: And this was why old sergeant, flight sergeant are saying they won’t give you the DFM because they’ll have to pay you the fifty quid.
Interviewer: Oh, I see [laughs] I see. Yeah. Well, that’s a, that’s a strange way, that’s a strange way of looking at the current [unclear] isn’t it?
RH: That’s what they used to say.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: You never saw DFMs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Dished out like DFCs.
Interviewer: I know. Well, actually I’ve noticed that as I’ve been reading —
RH: Now, at Oostkapelle there were actually two hundred and seven. Two hundred and seventy seven aircraft on that one. On that ops day. [pause] This is Kelly’s book. Kelly was —
Interviewer: Ah yes, your son.
RH: You know, my eldest lad.
Interviewer: Well, he might be interested in a copy of this when it’s all done then eh?
RH: Yeah. Twenty eight. Two hundred and seventy seven aircraft. Of them eighty six were Lancasters, a hundred and fifty five were Halifaxes, thirty six Mosquitoes and there were two losses. One Lanc and one Halifax on that trip. Now, we don’t know whether that one Halifax was supposed to be Bill Goodrum’s crew because it were reported that Bill had gone in to, had been shot down had gone into the drink you know because we were going down then there were people that see it and report it. Now, I don’t know whether that there was one Lancaster went missing and one Halifax and it could have been that one Halifax could have been Bill Goodrum’s but —
Interviewer: Actually, that would be reasonably easy to check on that. The Halifax would be a 4 Group Halifax wouldn’t it?
RH: Oh yes.
Interviewer: It was only 4 Group and 6 Group that were operational weren’t they?
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: So that would be easy enough to check how many squadrons actually took part, Halifax squadrons took part and then just look at their operational record books.
RH: Well —
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: It could be they lost one but that loss would have been in between base and going to the target.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: And from target back to base, you see.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
RH: Yeah. So, yeah you took it. Look at all these figures. Actually 640 figures.
Interviewer: I must have a look at that.
RH: They have the figures for, for Bill Goodrum’s trips.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: Only.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
RH: There is a booklet. A book, a thick book and in all aircraft and all the aircraft taking part, all types of aircraft taking part and it’s like a day-to-day diary of the Royal Air Force Bomber Command.
Interviewer: Is this the Bomber Command War Diaries? Martin. Martin Middlebrook and Chris Everitt.
RH: I think so.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. A big one.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. I have that.
RH: Well, the first time I saw it I were on holiday in Canada. 1983. I picked it up and it were fifty dollars you know probably twenty five quid. Too much I thought for a book and I put it down and then when I got home I thought well I should have bought it and I’ve been trying to get one ever since.
Interviewer: They’re difficult to get now. I mean I do have a, I have the —
RH: Arthur. Arthur has a copy. Arthur has a paperback effort or somebody gave it to him and he loaned it Kevin and Kevin put all these —
Interviewer: Got all the gen from. Yes.
RH: Got all this for me.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: You know, what —
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: This was actually, you know what Bill Goodrum’s crew went on.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: But we also got figures. [unclear] figures and happened in Lancs and sorties. Sorties are you know [unclear] —
Interviewer: Martin Middlebrook does that. Yeah. He —
RH: [unclear]
Interviewer: Yes.
Rh: You know. That one. That one.
Interviewer: Would you say —
RH: That trip up here more or less, you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: If you can own a copy of that.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: That’s a copy.
Interviewer: I’d love to have a look through that before I go if —
RH: This one.
Interviewer: Perhaps when we’ve finished. Well, to the file if that’s alright. When we’ve finished having a chat.
RH: That was Bill Goodrum’s [pause]
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: Everything Bill Goodrum’s crew went on.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And he goes over.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And also this one here.
Interviewer: Now, there it is. Zoutelande was the other place you went to the next day.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: This one is Bill Goodrum’s map. An old map.
Interviewer: Is this the route to Walcheren?
RH: That’s it. It’s Bill Goodrum’s operational map.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah. [unclear] Geoff Smith who apparently was a big pal, still is a big pal of Bill Goodrum’s also sent me a copy of one of these for Cologne. Yeah. I’m familiar with these. I’ve seen these before. He’s on his way to, oh there it is down there. There’s the route down there.
RH: Well, that one were, he gave us all one. He must have kept them somehow.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: It’s a bit battered like.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Which it would be.
Interviewer: Yes, I bet. I’ve got copies of those Bill.
RH: Yeah. Other than that Kevin has everything else.
Interviewer: I’ve got a copy of this as well actually.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: From, yes.
RH: Well, that’s Ron, the bomb aimer’s. The bomb aimer’s logbook that one.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah. [unclear] Arthur’s
Interviewer: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Would you say that Oostkapelle was probably the worst trip you went on?
RH: No. No. No. That was on a daylight raid and we were in, we were in [pause] I think the fifth wave and as we were going in on us dogleg we almost went in on a dogleg. We could see the first two waves. If I could look in my logbook I could tell you [pause] it could be [pause] I think it could be —
[recording paused]
RH: They all had different waves the same these targets you know and if I could read it it could be [pause] it could have been Koblenz. Jülich or Koblenz. I think it could have been Koblenz because it was a bit of a long trip. I remember it very well. Anyway, we were going on our dogleg and we could see the first wave come through and come through the target and we’d been there. We knew they were taking a bashing and you could see it because I mean you could see with the anti-aircraft smoke and everything that they were really taking a bashing and I happened to mention it to Bill because in the mid-upper turret you could see everything that was going on. There was nothing you missed. I said, ‘It looks a bit rough over there, Bill.’ He said, ‘Aye but it might have calmed down a bit by the time we get there.’ That particular raid shrapnel came through the turret top and when we went on the bombing run on that one we really took a thrashing and I think that were one of the worst.
Interviewer: Was that, I think the strategy was to sort of put up a box barrage. The other fighters —
RH: That’s right and we had to go through. Actually, the funny thing about it there were no fighters. There were no fighters at all and although we were going in in about six or seven different waves it was a big raid and I remember going in three different heights. If we were told to go in at low, lowest which whatever, Bill would go in at lowest and it was, on a bombing run it were my job you know besides fighters I could see dead above us and on this particular raid I think we were in the middle but when I looked up above and I said to Bill, ‘There’s a chap up there with his bomb doors open, Bill.’ And we were on our bombing run and it’s not a nice sight. A hundred yards up there’s another aircraft with the bombing doors open and you knew you know any second he’s going to let go. So, ‘Ok Rosie.’ And just moved a little bit to get a little bit to one side because he wasn’t going to shift and Bill just moved to one side. But we were still getting pounded and when you got pounded you really shook. In a Halifax you really shook. But we got through it ok.
Interviewer: That was Jülich because Bill was telling me about that.
RH: Yes.
Interviewer: He said that you sort of mention the fact you just sort of banked off to port slightly and then he says these bombs came past and they were so —
RH: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: They were so close he could see the markings on them.
RH: You could.
Interviewer: He couldn’t read the markings but he could see the markings.
RH: I had to tell him many a time and Bill would just move to one side and then the next minute you’d see these bombs sail past and it wasn’t you know that way you were going down with them. That were a nasty raid. Another —
Interviewer: Actually, just, just to interrupt you there Bill I think something like that happened on the raid to Wangerooge. Did you go to Wangerooge in April of ’45 because 640 squadron lost one aircraft then. It was flown by a Pilot Officer Pugh and it was because an engine had been taken out by a bomb falling —
RH: Ah, no. I don’t think we went on that because that [pause] no. No. We didn’t. We didn’t go to that in ’45. No [unclear] Gelsenkirchen [unclear] I might have said we went to Gelsenkirchen and someone might have a different name inside their logbook because they might have put down that actual village where they come from. But no but we have seen you know we saw some nasty sights. I saw one, one day we were on a raid. It wasn’t too bad. It might have been a direct hit and we were one of the lucky ones you know but for that crew and it just blew up. The next thing you know all you can see is different pieces going down you know like the wireless sets or owt like that going down and going by you but if you let it get to you then —
Interviewer: Yes. I was going to say, I mean how do you deal with that then because I mean you would know sometimes a piece of your own aircraft going down, your own colleague because of the tail markings and so on.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did, how did you cope with that?
RH: From a mid-upper point of view he saw everything that were going on. A mid-upper gunner saw everything. The only thing you didn’t see was your own mob going away, you know. A rear gunner, his job was to see what was going on and to report it. You’d think, you weren’t talking all the time because if you were on your bombing run that belonged [pause] that fighter that time on the bombing run belongs to the bomb aimer. It was his job to keep going. He couldn’t do with anybody interrupting unless it was really [pause]. The same as, you know, ‘Bill, there are bomb doors open.’ Just put it to one side and that were it.
Interviewer: If as a mid-upper gunner you could see everything that was going on during the day does that mean that you preferred to fly at night where you could see very little?
RH: Well, no not really because the funny thing at night if it were, if it were a cloudless night with stars above you would see it near and you were looking all the way around you you know and you wondered but with positioned with the sky seemed to come you know in the distance. The sky and any [unclear] You were like in a void. All you could see was stars and going down and you were flying. You were thinking where the hell fire is earth? And you were disoriented for a little bit you see.
Interviewer: So when you were in your turret at night then you would be just traversing port starboard all the time were you?
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: With the, with the rear sort of going starboard port going on.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: The rear gunner weren’t so bad because he could only go so far around and so far around, you know. I could put mine both and do a full circle.
Interviewer: Yes. So did you do that occasionally then?
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Well, sometimes I mean when you were doing a full circle weave then port wasn’t so, you were supposed to trim it in but then Bill [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: So far around to the port beam and [unclear] rather than keep swinging it around, you know.
Interviewer: Did you find that a bit of a strain then being alert all the time?
RH: The eyesight.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: But as I said Bill were a stickler for rules and regulations and if it were a sunny day and we knew we were going at night me and Reg, the rear gunner used to walk about with dark goggles all day through. Right through to dusk. We would never take them off unless we went inside a building. We walked all day through with dark goggles on so when it came to night you know we were used to it. We got used to it so it helped us a hell of a lot and we were very good you know and we could see everything.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you have any encounters with night fighters at all?
RH: Well —
Interviewer: Because some folks did and some folks didn’t. It seemed to be almost the kind of luck of the draw in a way.
RH: No, because we did have encounters but at night time —
Interviewer: Do you remember a Focke Wulf 190 going over your starboard wing?
RH: We’d have reported it to Bill. I mean you’ve got to remember the rest of them, the wireless operator he was in his own enclosure. He wouldn’t see much. The navigator, he couldn’t see much. Depending on what the bomb aimer were doing he wasn’t seeing a lot. So if you were saying there’s a, you know there’s fighter on our port side well, they’d start panicking and through Gunnery School every gunner learned it was his job to bring that aircraft back and every gunner had learned that at night time there could be a fighter on the same route as what you’re going and it could be a hundred yards off and he’d willing you to fire at him. At the same time he’s got two mates on his other wing waiting for you firing.
Interviewer: And therefore identify your position.
RH: Yes. And all of a sudden boom. You’d be watching that one and he’d be away but his two mates would be on the other side and shoot you down. So, although me and Reg knew what were going on we never fired them guns. Not at night time. We didn’t get to at daytime because there was generally our own fighters escorting us so we didn’t. We didn’t have much problems. No. It were every air gunner’s job to bring that aircraft back and be as crafty as what they were if there were one there and that —
Interviewer: Does that mean that you never fired your guns in anger at all then Bill?
RH: Not in anger at all. No.
Interviewer: That’s good.
RH: And that actually for the simple reason Bill Goodrum had kept to the flight plan. If the flight plan said you went down to Reading, from Reading somewhere down the French coast at a certain point and at a certain height and you went on then to another dogleg Bill Goodrum and Larry the navigator that’s the way they went. After you dropped. After you dropped your bombs you had to come back a certain way. A lot of them took short cuts. A lot of them took short cuts and never came back. Bill Goodrum never took a short cut. I used to say to him, ‘Bill —’ as a crew we would say, ‘Bill, we’re fed up of being the last back to Leconfield.’ All the coffee has gone, all the free cigarettes had gone but we came back. He brought us back because he’d stick to the flight plan and if you’re in the flight plan there’s not many people with you. Never took a short cut and that were the simple plan. Yeah. So we never did fire our guns in anger. We did a good job me and Reg. We wouldn’t take [pause] although I think we would have had a go if Bill would have said yes but it were his way of doing it.
Interviewer: Were you ever in a situation then where when you were coming back I mean was there the possibility of actually having to ditch?
RH: Well, there were [pause] no. Not really. Once you’d got it on an even keel. Once you’d got it Bill were able to coax to refresh the engines and he were able to come back but once, I can’t remember which trip it was and it was the first time we’d had some trouble with [unclear] and we were having to come with the bomb bay open to come back up and it were cold. It was. It were that cold that if you had a minute from pumping it had frozen up and you had to start to gradually pump again.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And me and Arthur pumped them up and it were our job.
Interviewer: Did you actually get back to Leconfield then on three engines from Oostkapelle or did you have to sort of call somewhere else?
RH: No. We came back here with the engine selected because everybody was surprised we got back. I think it were reported that we’d gone in and everybody was surprised, and happy to see us back because at Leconfield while we were there Bill Goodrum’s crew was the crew everybody wanted to know because we went about smiling. We went about laughing because we were quite happy with what we were doing. We were doing everything we could and Bill Goodrum being certain of that although at times he was so dedicated he did a lot of practice bombing and of course we used to tell him go over Bridlington Bay we could take our fishing licence there and go fishing. We were always there dropping practice bombs you know. But everybody did say and you’ll hear people say now Bill Goodrum’s crew were the only crew that ever smiled. [unclear] we were happy. But the funny thing about it you see if we were a bit dejected any of us we would all go into Beverley and go and spend a half an hour with Reg’s mother. She lived in Beverley and if you were a bit downhearted you’d go see Reg’s mother and she was a lovely person and she’d sit you down, have a cup of tea and where she used to get stuff from for sandwiches we’d never know.
Interviewer: So the whole crew used to go around there sometimes did they?
RH: Pardon?
Interviewer: Did the whole crew used to go along there sometimes?
RH: Oh aye. Aye. If you were a bit downhearted. If something had gone wrong. Go to Reg’s mother. We had some lovely times with Reg’s mother [unclear] and he had twin sisters. They were a little bit younger than Reg. I’ve seen them since. I’ve met [unclear] you’d go to Reg’s mother, sit there and she’d talk to you. I mean with being married and after that trouble we had you know when I had to go to Sheffield I went back as soon as I could to see Reg’s mother and she said it was just one of those things. Every six weeks you know you got yourself seven days that I was able go home and see her and then go back quite happy and that were a wonderful thing. And I think that’s what made us a happy crew. We knew that we’d somewhere we could go and she was like a mother to us.
Interviewer: Given, given that air operations were really dodgy at best, at the best of times why is that folks actually volunteered? Because they were all volunteers or had been and you were saying earlier that you can’t think of any, if anyone were to say they were on aircrew and there were times when they were never scared than you’d say that they were lying.
RH: I don’t think anybody could really tell you. You volunteered but for me actually I’d no need to go. I were a miner. I were a miner and when I was twenty years old I were on regular nights working down at the main colliery and the chap who were working in the offices in the main colliery he were my age and I said, ‘Look. This is no good [unclear] ,’ I said, ‘Let’s go join up.’ But not joining the Army and he didn’t want to go in the Navy. So I said, ‘Let’s go in the Air Force. Air crew.’
Interviewer: He joined up to get off regular nights.
RH: Yeah [laughs]
Interviewer: Right.
RH: True. So they wouldn’t take us until we were twenty one and as soon as we were twenty one they were losing a lot of aircrew then. They took us. But unfortunately, his name was [Haughley], mine were Harvey. He went a fortnight before me and he went onto Lancs and we only met up once after we both started flying and he were going back and he were going to do his thirteenth and I think we were going to go back and I suppose we were [unclear] It was 5 o’clock in the morning, 5 o’clock bus some walked into Doncaster because there were more to Doncaster and catch separate trains and he went under. He went down on his thirteenth and, you know it were just one of those things. We joined up together but we were miners so you ask me now why did we volunteer? You volunteer for these things not knowing what it was actually like until you do it and then when you do it you see what makes you keep going? You’ve a set of RAF records here [unclear] . Nobody were forced to go on any trip. That’s what it meant to volunteer. And if you said, ‘I’m not going on that one. I don’t want to go on that one.’ They’re not going to put you in that aircraft but on your records would be LMF and no man wanted LMF on his record so he kept doing it. It’s a dreadful thing LMF I think. But and you’ve got, we had a wonderful crew. A wonderful spirit so it wasn’t as bad for us as it was for some of the crews.
Interviewer: Then this idea of crew spirit used to be absolutely crucial.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Folks were going because they didn’t want to let anyone down. Everybody becomes very much reliant on everybody else.
RH: What was crucial was a good pilot. A pilot who knew what he was doing. He’d let you get away with some things but he’d stop you if you’re taking advantage he would stop you there. Not in a nasty way but he’d stop you dead.
Interviewer: Would you say you were a superstitious crew then Bill? Some crews had their own particular superstitions. Their own rituals or their own mascots. You were in charge of the horn.
RH: I were you in charge of the horn. To look after it. To take it into the aircraft and bring it out. Once I took it into the aircraft then it went up to the pilot. It ended up with Bill.
Interviewer: Did you always do that in a particular kind of way then, Bill?
RH: No. Not really.
Interviewer: No. So what was —
RH: One doesn’t like, I never did, I never did forget it because it was always in my locker. I wouldn’t have liked to have got to that aircraft and then said, ‘I forget it. It’s in my locker.’ I wouldn’t. No.
[recording paused]
RH: It’s ok.
Interviewer: Would you just tell me what your particular, what you had to do with this horn or what you always did before an operation and during an operation. What did you do with this? You picked it up from somewhere.
RH: Well, nothing in particular. Nothing you know. It was on the aircraft. We weren’t superstitious. No. We weren’t. I never saw them. It was my job when we got into that locker room to get all my flying gear on. Go and book my parachute out. Once I’d got my flying gear on I picked that horn up and it were in my hand and it never left my hand.
Interviewer: So where did you pick the horn up from?
RH: It was in my locker.
Interviewer: Right.
RH: And it was in that locker. I remember the lockers had like a wire front.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: But I don’t, when I was at [correction] school I don’t know any.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yes.
RH: I don’t know if they took it with them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: If they got into my locker. They could get into my locker because there were some spare keys lying around. People had spare keys.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did, did you do, did you do things with it then when you were, once you got into the aircraft?
RH: No.
Interviewer: Did you put it in a particular place or —
RH: No.
Interviewer: No.
RH: I do remember. I do remember once that it were a bit rough. I think it were air, you know conditions were a bit tough and Bill were taking [unclear] [laughs]
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And he thought he were putting it you know, he opened this little side window and he thought he would put his arm out [unclear] but it weren’t going in that. It were actually going [unclear] underneath it.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
RH: You know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RH: So there was no ritual. We just took it. There were no —
Interviewer: Just in case because you inherited this from Bill Weinberg didn’t you?
RH: We got it off the Dutchman.
Interviewer: The Dutchman.
RH: He passed it on to another crew.
Interviewer: Van [Gleet].
RH: And there you know they went through. There were no ritual. I just picked it up in my locker. It were in my hand and I’d go and pick my parachute up in that hand and it never left that hand. Then when we got into the aircraft I put it down then on to the rest seat. You know the other side [unclear] and then Bill would take it home again and that’s where it stopped and no it was just a good luck charm and that were it to us and it were a good luck charm.
Interviewer: You survived. Yeah. So it obviously worked.
RH: All those operations.
Interviewer: Yes.
RH: And actually it were someone brought up [pause] it came from a garage in Elgin.
Interviewer: Yes. For thirty four and sixpence. It cost thirty four and sixpence.
RH: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes. I’ve come across a lot of references to, to it yes. So I’m obviously going to write a little bit about that. Would it be possible just to have a quick scan through that book Bill? Would you
Collection
Citation
“Interview with R W Harvey,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed January 21, 2026, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/58257.