Interview with Ken Trueman
Title
Interview with Ken Trueman
Description
Ken Trueman trained as a navigator and flew operations with 640 Squadron from RAF Leconfield. While on operations they came under attack and the plane began to burn. The crew baled out except the pilot and rear gunner. Ken parachuted into a field where members of the French Resistance were awaiting a supply drop. He and two other members of the surviving crew joined to fight with them until they were repatriated back to the UK.
Date
1997-08-04
Language
Type
Format
00:42:38 audio recording
Conforms To
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Contributor
Identifier
ATruemanKW970804
Transcription
Interviewer: There you are. So we are, we are going now. We are going now but we are recording all of this. Presumably you managed to get the —
KT: Yes. I did. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I found it very interesting.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did it, did it make much sense to you?
KT: You know, Alf seems to think we were shot down by a fighter.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But I seemed to think we were hit by light aircraft. Light aircraft —
Interviewer: Anti-aircraft fire. Yeah.
KT: Yeah. Light anti-aircraft.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But then of course I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: All I know is I heard four distinct bangs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And if it was a fighter it would be a rattle I would think.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We were hit by two shells and then a short time elapsed and we were hit by two more shells.
Interviewer: Right. Right. So, if I —
KT: But anyway that’s the technicality of it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, of course what I’m interested in doing is I’m interested in trying to develop this encounter a bit more so I mean if you can give me some answers to the following questions then that might help me to fill in that, fill in that background. Can you, can you remember what you were doing at the time? I mean just before you were hit presumably you would be working out a course for the return journey.
KT: I’d be, I was working every six minutes you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I was still on that because we were coming away from the target.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And also we only just got down from about eighteen thousand feet to six thousand.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And we’d sort of levelled out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: That’s when we were hit.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: So —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: How long we’d been flying at six thousand I don’t know but that’s —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then as I say there were just two bangs right out of the blue.
Interviewer: Yeah. So when these bangs came then, Ken I mean, did you, did you have, did any particular thoughts come to mind for you?
KT: No. It was just that we’d been hit.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And I immediately started working out you know where we were.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then the intercom went. I just heard, heard them say that there was a hole in the side of the plane.
Interviewer: Which side? Caused by damage you mean.
KT: Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the starboard outer engine was set on fire.
Interviewer: Yeah. So the hole in the fuselage would presumably be on the starboard side as well was it?
KT: Well, I don’t know that. I just know there was a hole in the side of the plane.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: And then there was quite a long interval. I mean how I don’t know but the pilot hadn’t got time to have activated the fire extinguishers in the engines.
Interviewer: Oh yeah. The Graviner system.
KT: Pardon?
Interviewer: Yeah. I think —
KT: We were flying, we were almost, we were just out of the —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: When the next two shells, the first one took away the undercarriage underneath. It was underneath in the bomb bay you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the fourth one went through the starboard wing. The metal just set on fire.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: There were no explosion.
Interviewer: There was an explosion.
KT: No.
Interviewer: Oh. So, yeah —
KT: Just one minute we were [pause] I was in almost darkness. The next minute it was as light as day.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It was literally as light as day. You could see everything. All the plane.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Of course, by this time the intercom had gone.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Well, I wasn’t on the intercom anyway. The first indication I had that we’d got to get out was a tap on the shoulder and the bomb aimer came in, had already clicked on his parachute.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I had to get up off my seat and fold it back and pick up my parachute and he by this time was taking up the trap door you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: That he jumped out of.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And he went out straight away. No messing about.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And I jumped straight afterward. After him.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I had to jump through flames. I think the flames were underneath you know. I could see flames.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So presumably Dennis Barr was alright at this stage was he?
KT: I couldn’t tell you.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I don’t know. I lost, after the first two I just heard them say there was a hole in the side of the plane.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the engine was on fire and then I went off the intercom. I didn’t hear any more.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: But I then passed the position to the wireless operator.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Who I presume made it. I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So you, you all got out then I think apart from Lefty Orrick who was in the back and Dennis Barr.
KT: Yeah. Well, I was the second one out from the front position.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: What happened after that I don’t know. I know that the bomb aimer got out because I saw him go.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then I got out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And I would presume that the wireless operator would follow me.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: The others would get out of the other positions.
Interviewer: Yeah. The, the bomb aimer was a fellow called [Harkin].
KT: [Harkin]. Yeah.
Interviewer: What was his first name, Ken?
KT: I think it was Bernard because we called him Bernie.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah because at the moment I’ve just got initials for [pause] for Harkin. Actually, I’ve got just initials for you as well but I can put Ken in now which is, which is better of course. So what about, it was Bill Ezra wasn’t it?
KT: Bill Ezra. Yeah.
Interviewer: And the flight engineer was an AG Goddard.
KT: Goddard. Yeah.
Interviewer: So what was his first name Ken?
KT: Arthur.
Interviewer: Arthur.
KT: Arthur Goddard.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, yeah. Right. So most of you guys eventually sort of got out and you made, you made contact with the —
KT: Ah. I’ll tell you that I came down and as I was coming down ok it doesn’t take long you know from six thousand feet.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: I could see I was landing in a field or what I thought was a field surrounded by small bonfires.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And when I got down I didn’t, I didn’t come down in the middle of the field I drifted towards the edge. When I came down I was immediately surrounded by people who turned out they were not the, they sort of worked for the Maquis.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And of course I was straight into the Maquis sort of thing.
Interviewer: Literally. I mean you could just —
KT: What it was this field was a mark for supplies to be dropped to them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You know, they sent a Stirling or a, or a Halifax with supplies.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: In amongst operations.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And they just dropped supplies and then came back you see.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: Well, apparently this particular night they were expecting supplies to be dropped and they got me instead.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that was lucky for you though wasn’t it really?
KT: Lucky for me, yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Because they immediately they looked after my parachute. They took my parachute.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And they, I came down in a little village called Laloux.
Interviewer: Can you spell that?
KT: Well, as far as I can tell you it’s L A L O U. Lalou. It’s only, only about six cottages.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But I have been back there.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
KT: I have been back there and that’s about six kilometres south of Ciney.
Interviewer: Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah which is I mean Alf, Alf reckoned that you were very close to Ciney when —
KT: Yeah. Well, we circled around. The plane. I think the pilot put the automatic pilot on, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But the gyros had obviously been thrown out of action or something and the plane instead of flying straight and level just circled around and around.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: So we all dropped in the same area.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Yeah. If, if Dennis Barr had put the aircraft onto automatic pilot that should have given him some time to get out himself would it not?
KT: Well, I, I don’t know. What I would think is he was the sort of fellow that would go back to see if everybody had got out.
Interviewer: Oh right.
KT: Although the plane as I say it was a ball, it was a ball of fire.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You know, it was just a ball of fire.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: He would go through and I think he probably got to the rear gunner and probably found him injured or something and you know they both didn’t get out. That’s the only thing I can think of. It was one of those [pause] you know there is two ways of getting out of an aircraft. There’s the control where the pilot knows the plane. He’s going to run out of fuel and crash but he’s got plenty of time for everybody to go out and plug in and tell the pilot they’re going.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Did you know that?
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You get and I think its I don’t know what it was, who went first or second but anyway you get to the place and you plug in and you say to the pilot, ‘Navigator going.’
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You’ve got plenty of time you see.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But this one was everybody for themselves. Get as many out as possible.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And so you just went out as soon as you could.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did, did other members of the crew apart from Alf sort of land in the same field then, Ken?
KT: No. No. No. I got together with the wireless operator and the flight engineer. We all got together by 2 o’clock the next day. I’ll tell you what happened to me. I came down as I say in this field. Then there were about six people there. It’s a long story. I can’t go into all of it. I mean little things like I always used to carry, I smoked in those days and whatever I, whatever cigarettes I’d got I always took a full packet with me extra. But this particular night I didn’t and so as soon I was alright you know I stood up and I felt like a cigarette. I took my cigarette packet out and I’d got seven cigarettes and I took one and six hands came out for the six [laughs]
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Things like that you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: Anyway, we started to walk then and we went to various houses. This was at, let me see [pause] about half past one in the morning when we got down and we walked around for God knows how long. I don’t know. We went to various houses and the reason for that was I found out the next day that these houses had already got one of my crew there you see.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yeah.
KT: So anyway —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I was put into the loft of a house or a cottage and I went to sleep then. Quite warm and everything and in the morning I came down and they got breakfast for me which consisted of an egg just thrown in to the pan and taken out and a piece of thick bacon which was all fat, you know. But anyway. And then it would be about half past eight I had my breakfast and then various people from the village started to come to see me. The schoolmaster came, the postman came, the vicar came and somebody else came and somebody else and every time somebody came to see me I had to have a drink of this like, I don’t know whether it was called [unclear] or [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It was white. White liquid.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And of course by 12 o’clock I was on my knees. I was paralytic.
Interviewer: I bet.
KT: Because every time I said, ‘Oh no. I don’t want anymore.’ I didn’t drink much in those days. ‘Oh, you’ve got to have a drink.’ You know. Anyway, I kept on. Then about 12 o’clock the doors burst open and three comers came in. I thought they were enemy and I thought the end had come. They were, they were civilians but they’d got these armbands on. The colours of the Belgian.
Interviewer: Resistance.
KT: They were the Belgian Army. They were recognised as an Army.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: They burst in you see and they indicated that I’d got to go with them. So I followed them and when I got outside it was, it was hot and with all this drink I had I felt awful. Anyway, we went across a field and there I met up with my wireless operator and my flight engineer.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: There was a lorry there with all these blokes and there was an Australian fellow. He was a civilian that was over there and he was living with these, with the Maquis in the woods, you know. He’d got a ruddy great big revolver. A great big thing. And from there we went. We drove off from there. We drove through the town. I mean it was amazing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Because there were Germans walking down. I could see them over the edge of this lorry. It was a tipper lorry you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. You’d be in civvies by this time.
KT: No.
Interviewer: Were you in civvies then?
KT: No. No. We were still in uniform but we were, we were, they couldn’t see us because these people just standing up by the side of the truck. We were in the middle.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: I could see and the Germans didn’t take any notice. Anyway, they drove us out to the woods and we, we went with our Maquis group in the middle of the woods and they were, I’ve got some photographs which I’ll try and find for you if you’re interested.
Interviewer: Well, I mean if you think —
KT: They were like gypsies.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: They had got the, they had got the station master, the German station master prisoner from Ciney. They’d got him as a prisoner.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And he didn’t want to escape because he was free to roam wherever he wanted.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: He didn’t want to escape.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And, and then we, we were there with them for about two days I think but it was difficult because they couldn’t speak English. We couldn’t speak French. And then we were taken one night and taken to, the chief was a count and he was second in command to a baron.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And they’d been educated in this country, you know. They could speak perfect English.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: So it was ok when we were with the group.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Anyway, is that the sort of thing you want to know?
Interviewer: Yeah. Just a couple of things that come to mind. I think when, when I had a chat with you before you were saying that there were, you felt that there was something not right about the trip. That everything just went too smoothly. You didn’t have to —
KT: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, whenever you went on a raid you were always off course a bit.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Quite a bit sometimes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You had to get back on course and increase your speed, increase your speed on the dogleg. The times for the pilot.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Well, we hit all our turning points to crack on without any trouble you know.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: It was not a panic.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: Not a panic.
Interviewer: Right. You wouldn’t be aware I understand that another aircraft went down from 640 on the same night. The one piloted by Wing Commander Moore.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: You didn’t see that one going down then.
KT: No. We didn’t see it going down. We didn’t see any. We didn’t see any planes going down. What —
Interviewer: Right.
KT: His plane was the same as ours you know in so much as it was a new aircraft and it was fitted with H2S and I thought that was rather significant. The two planes that were fitted with H2S were the two that were shot down.
Interviewer: Were yours the only two with H2S at the time.
KT: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You see they were brand new planes to the squadron and they were fitted with H2S. Now, they weren’t going to use these planes until the whole squadron were fitted out with new planes.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: Well, this particular night it was a major effort so everybody had to go.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Well, we’d already lost our Molescroft Maggie the week before.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And so we went in this new aircraft.
Interviewer: Yeah. Anyway, Alf said that you always reckoned that using the —
KT: I reckon that they trained their guns on to the H2S that we were using.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you were actually using that when you were flying.
KT: We were using it. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Yeah. Wonderful. It was a wonderful thing.
Interviewer: Yeah. Not if it allows other folks to home in on you though.
KT: No [laughs] no.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, when you, when you eventually were taken on board by the Belgian Resistance were you with them for very long before you got back to the UK?
KT: Yeah. We were with them all the time until [pause] let me see. I got back to England about the 10th of September I think.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: So we’d been with them then for about —
Interviewer: So that would be about four weeks or so then.
KT: Yeah. That’s —
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So how did you get back then? Via Spain?
KT: Pardon?
Interviewer: Did you get back via Spain or did you actually —
KT: No. What happened, we went out on an aborted raid and the Germans shot us up rather badly and we couldn’t go back to our place where we’d been living.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: So we all, we made our way to a hunting lodge. One of King Leopold’s hunting lodges right in the middle of the woods and twenty four of us, there were twenty four there well four of us, by this time incidentally we’d met up with the, it took three days for us to meet up with Bernie [unclear] the bomb aimer.
Interviewer: Oh yes. Yeah.
KT: He’d landed on a [unclear] and sprained his ankle.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And he laid there for a couple of days before he asked anybody you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Because you’d got to be careful who you spoke to.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: But after about a day and a half he saw somebody coming down and spoke to them and they went off and they came back and they helped him and they got, he came with us then.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you were actually, you actually joined these partisans and you were fighting alongside them for a while.
KT: Yes. Yes. We did all sorts of things. We guarded two prisoners for quite some time.
Interviewer: What? Germans?
KT: No. No. There were two. There were two people brought in. They were accused of being quislings you know.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yeah.
KT: One was a very nice fellow. He was a restauranteur from Brussels. The other one was a, oh he was a mean looking devil. He was a boxer and and the fellow from Brussels, the restauranteur was ever so friendly. He spoke very good English and wanted to talk you see and of course the idea was they couldn’t. They weren’t allowed until they had either been cleared or found guilty.
Interviewer: Right. Right.
KT: And it took about three days in which they were, they were, they had to sit by the base of a tree with a rope around their neck and their hands tied behind their back. They were, they were fed and everything you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: They weren’t ill-treated.
Interviewer: So when you, when you were with this band of, of partisans were you operating in the area of Ciney all the time?
KT: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We walked everywhere. We walked everywhere, you know. We were [pause] we were by a railway where there was a steep bank.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the trains used to chug up there very slowly you see and they used to stop the train, blow up the track with a little bit of plastic. Yeah. You had the load, the last wagon let it roll down until it overturned and they’d drive the train into it.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: Do you understand?
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And that sort of thing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Cutting down telegraph poles as well.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: To —
Interviewer: So these were the kind of things that you and your three pals were getting involved with as well then.
KT: Yes. Oh yeah, we got involved with it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So were you the only four British servicemen helping this group out at the time?
KT: That we knew about. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Also, they’d got a couple of Russians there that were a bit dodgy [laughs] but we felt that one would have belonged to the KGB. The other one was alright. There was one Frenchman and the rest were Belgian youngsters, you know.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: They would, if they’d have been free they would have been sent off to work camps and things like that.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah. So, when you were operating with this particular group, Ken, I mean did you have any particularly dodgy moments or —
KT: Well, yes we did. We had one funny moment that I must tell you about.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I think. One night the chief said to the four of us he wanted to take us to dinner at his chateau and so we left at about I suppose 11 o’clock at night [unclear] he took three of us. [unclear] we went past like three little lakes and we eventually came to this chateau and we had a meal there and all the time the Germans were guarding the entrances to the, it was like an estate. You know like we have estates in our country.
Interviewer: Country estates do you mean?
KT: Country estates.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: And he’d gone one of these lodges you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the Germans were there [laughs] and we were having a meal at the back in the chateau.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It was funny.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you never thought that that might be particularly dangerous. I mean if —
KT: No. They didn’t think it would be either.
Interviewer: Oh right. Right.
KT: We just went along with them you know.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
KT: We weren’t frightened or anything like that.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: I mean I don’t, I don’t know what would have happened if they had come up because they were long drives you know but anyway nothing happened. We listened to the BBC at 12 o’clock to see where the line was, you know. We used to get different where the main line was, this was our troops.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: The Americans were sending out probes you know. Seven or eight tanks were going on ahead.
Interviewer: Oh yeah. Yeah.
KT: Getting everything up.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And eventually we got behind one of those. That’s how we [pause] What happened as I say we went out. We wanted to move camp so we went out to get a lorry. Hijack a lorry.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Although it was wartime there were lorries driving about. They just used to hijack one, load up the stuff and move. Move camp and then hitch the lorry somewhere else you see.
Interviewer: What kind of camps did you have then? Were you living out in the country at the time?
KT: In the woods.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Always in the woods.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: We used to make a roof out of like thatch.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You know.
Interviewer: Yeah. I get the gist yeah.
KT: It wasn’t waterproof or anything like that. I mean if it rained you got wet.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But we, we sort of made a bed out of [unclear] and covered them with leaves and things like that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It wasn’t very comfortable but you managed to get to sleep.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: If it rained you could sleep for about two hours. That was all. Then you woke up and you were cold and wet.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And so we got various cooking utensils so they wanted a lorry to move all these things and there was a cutting where we all, we were on the top and two lorries came along and so our Sten gun [pause] not Sten gun, a Browning. They’d got a Browning gun. They came out and stopped these two lorries but unfortunately there were about forty German troops on the back.
Interviewer: Oh right.
KT: And so of course there was a bit of a fight then. There were bullets flying everywhere. I’m not joking. Trees were dropping down. God it was [pause] that went on for about half an hour I would think. It seemed like a half an hour. I might be wrong.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We, by this time we’d got as I said, we’d got, let me think like an agent and a New Zealander and one or two other RAF lads and this New Zealand fellow, I forget his name now. I’ve been to his grave. He said to the fellow next to him, ‘What’s happening?’ because it had all gone quiet you see and they had, they’d got a new word. We hadn’t heard it very much. Kaput. You’ve probably heard it since. We hadn’t heard it very much. Basically, the German kaput you see. What it meant was don’t stand up because there were Germans there. Well, this fellow thought he meant the Germans had capitulated.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: He stood up and oh God there was a crossfire and he was cut down and so we all dispersed then and we walked I suppose a day and a half around and around. There was four of us and a guide.
Interviewer: You weren’t looking for the Allied line then.
KT: No. No. No. We had —
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: And we eventually got to the shooting lodge which was where [pause] we did well in there for about some days. Twenty four of us and four, our four. A complete fortress. And Alf I think has been with the pilot of that crew. Anyway, then there were various other bods. I can’t remember now. There were twenty four of us and one day we set off and we walked for forty miles. It took us fourteen hours to walk forty miles and we got to what we since found out was a place called [Massy]. M A S S, I think. [Massy.]
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I’ve been there. I’ve been there. And we were at an orphanage. There were, the orphanage was built for children and we were in the stables and the cowsheds at the back.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And we were there for about three or four days I would think and then one morning about 6 o’clock, it might have been earlier than that, we used to get up fairly early and I had to go outside and I could see the Germans were surrounding us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: So I nipped in smartly, got the guide, took him out and he had a look and there were four, there were four lads who were sick. They were in the orphanage and the twenty of us we ran up the hill to a field. It was quite a sharp incline and I’m halfway up there and there was a bank about four feet high and we started to run up this hill and as soon as the Germans saw us they started firing. The twenty of us took off. That doesn’t half give your feet some speed [laughs] and I mean we cleared this bank, three to four feet high. We cleared that and we got up to the top. Of course once we got to the top and started running down the Germans couldn’t fire at us you see. We were on the other side.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: We went down this hill like nobody’s business and at the bottom there was a river. Oh, I don’t know how far it must have been but I’ll tell you what I think it was twenty lads jumped in and one, at one stroke and they were up the other side. I suppose once we got over the other side we were in the woods again and they lost us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But of course we were all soaking wet and miserable. That was at about half six in the morning. I think we stayed there until, until about 10 o’clock and then suddenly shots started to come across whistling over the top and then they went back again. Then they went. Anyway, at about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we said to the guide [unclear] this was the Belgian, ‘Go and see if you can find out.’ Well, he went off. Everything had gone quiet and suddenly, it must have been a couple of hours later I mean I don’t know how I’m going for time because I can’t remember very much.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: But about a couple of hours later we heard a tank coming into the woods. We thought that’s it, he’s been captured and he’s told them where we are. Anyway, we heard a tank arrived. It was a jeep without any silencer and there were two Yanks on it that were as drunk as [unclear] and of course it was all friendly then. They gave us cigarettes and they gave us cognac and we were all —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We were all keeling over.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then we all got on to this jeep and they took us into the town of [Massy]. What had happened one of these tank columns had come through into the town of [Massy] and started firing. Then the Germans had pushed them out again. And the Americans had pushed them back again and that was it. Well, the villagers were there and they greeted us like we were [unclear] well it was wonderful really. They decided to get out food and bottles of beer that they had. Just outside the town there were two Germans [unclear] and that’s it. We waited there until the column decided to go back. The lorries that brought all the supplies up to these tank columns because the tank column had gone on there but the lorries had got to go back for supplies and they took us back with them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then we, we had to make our way back then.
Interviewer: So, how long did it take you to get back to the UK then? Did they fly you out?
KT: Well, when —
Interviewer: Did they?
KT: No. They, yeah well they did when we got back to, we got back to the Hotel Maurice, well we would say Maurice I suppose.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But they called it the Maurice. I was lucky because we had various. All the Americans wanted to go forward and it was difficult to get these to go back.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But eventually after a lot of trouble we found half a dozen lorries that were going. Going right back to Paris and so one of us got in one of these lorries.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I think one lorry took one person you see.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And oh it was marvellous. I think we had one or two nights on the road.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: The first day we got there they’d got bacon. Bacon that we cooked on a little primer stove. They were well geared up you know and ham. Ham and pork and so eventually I got back to Paris and the next day they flew us back home.
Interviewer: Yeah. So did you fly back to Leconfield straightaway then?
KT: Oh no. We flew back to Hendon.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yeah.
KT: Where we had to [laughs] this was very funny. They immediately put us through the Customs [laughs]
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: We had to go through Customs.
Interviewer: Yeah. Anything to declare, eh? Yeah. Just as a matter of interest Ken what did you, what did you think of the idea of becoming part of the ground, the ground forces once you’d joined this Resistance movement. Did you volunteer for that or was it expected of you?
KT: Well, we were just with a Maquis group and we still had [unclear] and I don’t think we really thought about it.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: No, it was —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: [unclear] had to be done I suppose.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: They liked the fact that we were [pause] we had a little bit of discipline. I mean this was a rabble you know. It was just a rabble. They hadn’t got any, they hadn’t got any training or anything like that.
Interviewer: No. No.
KT: The chief I suppose he was trained after a fashion. You know he started this Maquis group because he didn’t choose to be occupied I suppose.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: The main thing was to cause the Germans as much trouble as possible without killing any. They took it all in good part unless any of their men were killed. But then if there were any Germans killed they took it out on the villagers you know. [unclear]
Interviewer: Right. So you mentioned a couple of things that you get up to was felling telegraph poles.
KT: Telegraph poles.
Interviewer: And derailing. Derailing trains.
KT: Yeah. Well, yeah. It was communications all the time.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: Why the Germans didn’t guard this railway track I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: They went back time and time again.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that’s true. Yeah. I think I’ve, I think I’ve got the gist there now and obviously what I’m going to do is I’m going to rewrite this particular piece and blend a good part of what you’ve told me into that. I think when we were having a chat I was telling you that the photographs that Alf lent me a copy is a bit of blur. I mean I sort of —
KT: That’s right.
Interviewer: Do you have anything that might be a bit better?
KT: I’ll have a look. I know I’ve got one of the crew that is quite good.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We went to, I think we went to a proper place to have it done. I don’t know. I’ll see if I can find that. I’ll try and find it.
Interviewer: Well, I mean I would just need to borrow it for about it takes about ten days. Just long enough to take a picture and get it developed and make sure that it’s a good copy that’s all and then it will be back in the post to you. Yeah.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: If there is anything else you want to know.
Interviewer: Of course you presumably once you got back to the UK after a period of rest you’d be back on operations were you?
KT: No. No. It’s no, we, I went as a navigational instructor.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: At [pause] at a place quite close to near Stourbridge. Near Stourbridge.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
KT: Halfpenny Green. I’m just looking for your letter to see that I’ve got for your phone number.
Interviewer: Yeah. It’ll be, it’ll be on the top. The top left-hand side.
KT: Right. Bill Norman.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I think, I don’t know if I told you that one day when we were in this shooting lodge of King Leopold. I’ve got photographs of all these by the way.
Interviewer: Did they let you have a camera there then?
KT: No. I’ve been when I went.
Interviewer: Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: I photographed the chateau where we were.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: But you know we were forewarned I suppose because we hadn’t got anything to do.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And so two of us went out. Went and got the other road because the retreat was on. You’ve got to remember the Germans were straggling back. They’d had a hell of a beating. Some were walking. Perhaps checking their rifles, some on bikes and we got into a deep ditch. Deep enough for us to be covered with foliage you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It was dry. There was no rain and we were just watching and then suddenly tanks were coming by as well but suddenly the RAF came over, Spitfires came over and started strafing them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And of course we were in this ruddy ditch.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: So, the Germans vacated their, the tanks. They all went into the woods.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And I was frightened if they had gone a bit further they would have come to this shooting lodge where all the lads were.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But we had to stay in this, this trench for about two hours because we daren’t get out because the Germans were still there. They stopped and had some lunch and then they went off and then —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And of course when they went we, we went back to —
Interviewer: You were lucky that some of the German soldiers didn’t start piling in to the ditch.
KT: Well, yeah we were. At that particular time though as I say there were tanks going by.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And they just peeled off into the woods and we were stood there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And that was, that was a bit frightening.
Interviewer: Yeah. Sounds it.
KT: Mind you, at the time we didn’t feel frightened.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. You must be a different man to me then I think. I would have been wondering all the time.
KT: Yeah [laughs] we knew there were tanks. As long as we kept down there of course they couldn’t see us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Because as I say it was a ditch but it was covered over with foliage. They might have jumped in there I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Dennis Barr, going back to the aircraft then presumably he piled in with the aircraft did he?
KT: Pardon?
Interviewer: Dennis Barr, he sort of, he sort of piled in with the aircraft. He —
KT: Well, Alf could remember seeing a couple of bodies when he was captured and as I say he went, they took him and he saw two parachutes obviously being burned went out with them. They’d been scorched and he saw two, not bodies but two coffins.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Coffins.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Which were for the two lads.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: They are buried by the way at a place called Hotton.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: In March.
Interviewer: Yeah. I’ve, one of the things in this, in this manuscript is the, it’s a Roll of Honour for all of the 640 guys who didn’t make it together with the, the night that they were lost. The target that they were lost over.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: And where they, where they are buried. I don’t have that in front of me at the minute but I know for a fact that I have got it.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: I have got it.
KT: Well, I there again I’ve got a photograph of the blokes. I’ve been over there you know.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
KT: [unclear] ok. Anything, when I put the phone down now I’ll go and get my photographs out and see if I can find —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It might take me some time. If I can —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I’ll send them off to you.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, as I say, Ken I need them just for about ten days or so just to get copies done and get the prints back.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: And then they’ll be back in the post to you.
KT: Ok then.
Interviewer: Ok. Well, thanks very much for your time.
KT: I hope I’ve been of some help.
Interviewer: Yeah. Of course you have. Yeah.
KT: If there is anything else you want to know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Give me a ring.
Interviewer: Lovely. Ok, Ken. Well, thanks for your time.
KT: Ok.
Interviewer: Right. Bye.
KT: Bye bye.
Interviewer: Bye now.
KT: Yes. I did. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I found it very interesting.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did it, did it make much sense to you?
KT: You know, Alf seems to think we were shot down by a fighter.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But I seemed to think we were hit by light aircraft. Light aircraft —
Interviewer: Anti-aircraft fire. Yeah.
KT: Yeah. Light anti-aircraft.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But then of course I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: All I know is I heard four distinct bangs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And if it was a fighter it would be a rattle I would think.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We were hit by two shells and then a short time elapsed and we were hit by two more shells.
Interviewer: Right. Right. So, if I —
KT: But anyway that’s the technicality of it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, of course what I’m interested in doing is I’m interested in trying to develop this encounter a bit more so I mean if you can give me some answers to the following questions then that might help me to fill in that, fill in that background. Can you, can you remember what you were doing at the time? I mean just before you were hit presumably you would be working out a course for the return journey.
KT: I’d be, I was working every six minutes you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I was still on that because we were coming away from the target.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And also we only just got down from about eighteen thousand feet to six thousand.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And we’d sort of levelled out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: That’s when we were hit.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: So —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: How long we’d been flying at six thousand I don’t know but that’s —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then as I say there were just two bangs right out of the blue.
Interviewer: Yeah. So when these bangs came then, Ken I mean, did you, did you have, did any particular thoughts come to mind for you?
KT: No. It was just that we’d been hit.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And I immediately started working out you know where we were.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then the intercom went. I just heard, heard them say that there was a hole in the side of the plane.
Interviewer: Which side? Caused by damage you mean.
KT: Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the starboard outer engine was set on fire.
Interviewer: Yeah. So the hole in the fuselage would presumably be on the starboard side as well was it?
KT: Well, I don’t know that. I just know there was a hole in the side of the plane.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: And then there was quite a long interval. I mean how I don’t know but the pilot hadn’t got time to have activated the fire extinguishers in the engines.
Interviewer: Oh yeah. The Graviner system.
KT: Pardon?
Interviewer: Yeah. I think —
KT: We were flying, we were almost, we were just out of the —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: When the next two shells, the first one took away the undercarriage underneath. It was underneath in the bomb bay you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the fourth one went through the starboard wing. The metal just set on fire.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: There were no explosion.
Interviewer: There was an explosion.
KT: No.
Interviewer: Oh. So, yeah —
KT: Just one minute we were [pause] I was in almost darkness. The next minute it was as light as day.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It was literally as light as day. You could see everything. All the plane.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Of course, by this time the intercom had gone.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Well, I wasn’t on the intercom anyway. The first indication I had that we’d got to get out was a tap on the shoulder and the bomb aimer came in, had already clicked on his parachute.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I had to get up off my seat and fold it back and pick up my parachute and he by this time was taking up the trap door you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: That he jumped out of.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And he went out straight away. No messing about.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And I jumped straight afterward. After him.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I had to jump through flames. I think the flames were underneath you know. I could see flames.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So presumably Dennis Barr was alright at this stage was he?
KT: I couldn’t tell you.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I don’t know. I lost, after the first two I just heard them say there was a hole in the side of the plane.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the engine was on fire and then I went off the intercom. I didn’t hear any more.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: But I then passed the position to the wireless operator.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Who I presume made it. I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So you, you all got out then I think apart from Lefty Orrick who was in the back and Dennis Barr.
KT: Yeah. Well, I was the second one out from the front position.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: What happened after that I don’t know. I know that the bomb aimer got out because I saw him go.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then I got out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And I would presume that the wireless operator would follow me.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: The others would get out of the other positions.
Interviewer: Yeah. The, the bomb aimer was a fellow called [Harkin].
KT: [Harkin]. Yeah.
Interviewer: What was his first name, Ken?
KT: I think it was Bernard because we called him Bernie.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah because at the moment I’ve just got initials for [pause] for Harkin. Actually, I’ve got just initials for you as well but I can put Ken in now which is, which is better of course. So what about, it was Bill Ezra wasn’t it?
KT: Bill Ezra. Yeah.
Interviewer: And the flight engineer was an AG Goddard.
KT: Goddard. Yeah.
Interviewer: So what was his first name Ken?
KT: Arthur.
Interviewer: Arthur.
KT: Arthur Goddard.
Interviewer: Yeah. So, yeah. Right. So most of you guys eventually sort of got out and you made, you made contact with the —
KT: Ah. I’ll tell you that I came down and as I was coming down ok it doesn’t take long you know from six thousand feet.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: I could see I was landing in a field or what I thought was a field surrounded by small bonfires.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And when I got down I didn’t, I didn’t come down in the middle of the field I drifted towards the edge. When I came down I was immediately surrounded by people who turned out they were not the, they sort of worked for the Maquis.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And of course I was straight into the Maquis sort of thing.
Interviewer: Literally. I mean you could just —
KT: What it was this field was a mark for supplies to be dropped to them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You know, they sent a Stirling or a, or a Halifax with supplies.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: In amongst operations.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And they just dropped supplies and then came back you see.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: Well, apparently this particular night they were expecting supplies to be dropped and they got me instead.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, that was lucky for you though wasn’t it really?
KT: Lucky for me, yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Because they immediately they looked after my parachute. They took my parachute.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And they, I came down in a little village called Laloux.
Interviewer: Can you spell that?
KT: Well, as far as I can tell you it’s L A L O U. Lalou. It’s only, only about six cottages.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But I have been back there.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
KT: I have been back there and that’s about six kilometres south of Ciney.
Interviewer: Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah which is I mean Alf, Alf reckoned that you were very close to Ciney when —
KT: Yeah. Well, we circled around. The plane. I think the pilot put the automatic pilot on, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But the gyros had obviously been thrown out of action or something and the plane instead of flying straight and level just circled around and around.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: So we all dropped in the same area.
Interviewer: Yeah. Right. Yeah. If, if Dennis Barr had put the aircraft onto automatic pilot that should have given him some time to get out himself would it not?
KT: Well, I, I don’t know. What I would think is he was the sort of fellow that would go back to see if everybody had got out.
Interviewer: Oh right.
KT: Although the plane as I say it was a ball, it was a ball of fire.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You know, it was just a ball of fire.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: He would go through and I think he probably got to the rear gunner and probably found him injured or something and you know they both didn’t get out. That’s the only thing I can think of. It was one of those [pause] you know there is two ways of getting out of an aircraft. There’s the control where the pilot knows the plane. He’s going to run out of fuel and crash but he’s got plenty of time for everybody to go out and plug in and tell the pilot they’re going.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Did you know that?
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You get and I think its I don’t know what it was, who went first or second but anyway you get to the place and you plug in and you say to the pilot, ‘Navigator going.’
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You’ve got plenty of time you see.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But this one was everybody for themselves. Get as many out as possible.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And so you just went out as soon as you could.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did, did other members of the crew apart from Alf sort of land in the same field then, Ken?
KT: No. No. No. I got together with the wireless operator and the flight engineer. We all got together by 2 o’clock the next day. I’ll tell you what happened to me. I came down as I say in this field. Then there were about six people there. It’s a long story. I can’t go into all of it. I mean little things like I always used to carry, I smoked in those days and whatever I, whatever cigarettes I’d got I always took a full packet with me extra. But this particular night I didn’t and so as soon I was alright you know I stood up and I felt like a cigarette. I took my cigarette packet out and I’d got seven cigarettes and I took one and six hands came out for the six [laughs]
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Things like that you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: Anyway, we started to walk then and we went to various houses. This was at, let me see [pause] about half past one in the morning when we got down and we walked around for God knows how long. I don’t know. We went to various houses and the reason for that was I found out the next day that these houses had already got one of my crew there you see.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yeah.
KT: So anyway —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I was put into the loft of a house or a cottage and I went to sleep then. Quite warm and everything and in the morning I came down and they got breakfast for me which consisted of an egg just thrown in to the pan and taken out and a piece of thick bacon which was all fat, you know. But anyway. And then it would be about half past eight I had my breakfast and then various people from the village started to come to see me. The schoolmaster came, the postman came, the vicar came and somebody else came and somebody else and every time somebody came to see me I had to have a drink of this like, I don’t know whether it was called [unclear] or [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It was white. White liquid.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And of course by 12 o’clock I was on my knees. I was paralytic.
Interviewer: I bet.
KT: Because every time I said, ‘Oh no. I don’t want anymore.’ I didn’t drink much in those days. ‘Oh, you’ve got to have a drink.’ You know. Anyway, I kept on. Then about 12 o’clock the doors burst open and three comers came in. I thought they were enemy and I thought the end had come. They were, they were civilians but they’d got these armbands on. The colours of the Belgian.
Interviewer: Resistance.
KT: They were the Belgian Army. They were recognised as an Army.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: They burst in you see and they indicated that I’d got to go with them. So I followed them and when I got outside it was, it was hot and with all this drink I had I felt awful. Anyway, we went across a field and there I met up with my wireless operator and my flight engineer.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: There was a lorry there with all these blokes and there was an Australian fellow. He was a civilian that was over there and he was living with these, with the Maquis in the woods, you know. He’d got a ruddy great big revolver. A great big thing. And from there we went. We drove off from there. We drove through the town. I mean it was amazing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Because there were Germans walking down. I could see them over the edge of this lorry. It was a tipper lorry you know.
Interviewer: Yeah. You’d be in civvies by this time.
KT: No.
Interviewer: Were you in civvies then?
KT: No. No. We were still in uniform but we were, we were, they couldn’t see us because these people just standing up by the side of the truck. We were in the middle.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: I could see and the Germans didn’t take any notice. Anyway, they drove us out to the woods and we, we went with our Maquis group in the middle of the woods and they were, I’ve got some photographs which I’ll try and find for you if you’re interested.
Interviewer: Well, I mean if you think —
KT: They were like gypsies.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: They had got the, they had got the station master, the German station master prisoner from Ciney. They’d got him as a prisoner.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And he didn’t want to escape because he was free to roam wherever he wanted.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: He didn’t want to escape.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And, and then we, we were there with them for about two days I think but it was difficult because they couldn’t speak English. We couldn’t speak French. And then we were taken one night and taken to, the chief was a count and he was second in command to a baron.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And they’d been educated in this country, you know. They could speak perfect English.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: So it was ok when we were with the group.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Anyway, is that the sort of thing you want to know?
Interviewer: Yeah. Just a couple of things that come to mind. I think when, when I had a chat with you before you were saying that there were, you felt that there was something not right about the trip. That everything just went too smoothly. You didn’t have to —
KT: Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, whenever you went on a raid you were always off course a bit.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Quite a bit sometimes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You had to get back on course and increase your speed, increase your speed on the dogleg. The times for the pilot.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Well, we hit all our turning points to crack on without any trouble you know.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: It was not a panic.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: Not a panic.
Interviewer: Right. You wouldn’t be aware I understand that another aircraft went down from 640 on the same night. The one piloted by Wing Commander Moore.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: You didn’t see that one going down then.
KT: No. We didn’t see it going down. We didn’t see any. We didn’t see any planes going down. What —
Interviewer: Right.
KT: His plane was the same as ours you know in so much as it was a new aircraft and it was fitted with H2S and I thought that was rather significant. The two planes that were fitted with H2S were the two that were shot down.
Interviewer: Were yours the only two with H2S at the time.
KT: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You see they were brand new planes to the squadron and they were fitted with H2S. Now, they weren’t going to use these planes until the whole squadron were fitted out with new planes.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: Well, this particular night it was a major effort so everybody had to go.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Well, we’d already lost our Molescroft Maggie the week before.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And so we went in this new aircraft.
Interviewer: Yeah. Anyway, Alf said that you always reckoned that using the —
KT: I reckon that they trained their guns on to the H2S that we were using.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you were actually using that when you were flying.
KT: We were using it. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Yeah. Wonderful. It was a wonderful thing.
Interviewer: Yeah. Not if it allows other folks to home in on you though.
KT: No [laughs] no.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, when you, when you eventually were taken on board by the Belgian Resistance were you with them for very long before you got back to the UK?
KT: Yeah. We were with them all the time until [pause] let me see. I got back to England about the 10th of September I think.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: So we’d been with them then for about —
Interviewer: So that would be about four weeks or so then.
KT: Yeah. That’s —
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So how did you get back then? Via Spain?
KT: Pardon?
Interviewer: Did you get back via Spain or did you actually —
KT: No. What happened, we went out on an aborted raid and the Germans shot us up rather badly and we couldn’t go back to our place where we’d been living.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: So we all, we made our way to a hunting lodge. One of King Leopold’s hunting lodges right in the middle of the woods and twenty four of us, there were twenty four there well four of us, by this time incidentally we’d met up with the, it took three days for us to meet up with Bernie [unclear] the bomb aimer.
Interviewer: Oh yes. Yeah.
KT: He’d landed on a [unclear] and sprained his ankle.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And he laid there for a couple of days before he asked anybody you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Because you’d got to be careful who you spoke to.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: But after about a day and a half he saw somebody coming down and spoke to them and they went off and they came back and they helped him and they got, he came with us then.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you were actually, you actually joined these partisans and you were fighting alongside them for a while.
KT: Yes. Yes. We did all sorts of things. We guarded two prisoners for quite some time.
Interviewer: What? Germans?
KT: No. No. There were two. There were two people brought in. They were accused of being quislings you know.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yeah.
KT: One was a very nice fellow. He was a restauranteur from Brussels. The other one was a, oh he was a mean looking devil. He was a boxer and and the fellow from Brussels, the restauranteur was ever so friendly. He spoke very good English and wanted to talk you see and of course the idea was they couldn’t. They weren’t allowed until they had either been cleared or found guilty.
Interviewer: Right. Right.
KT: And it took about three days in which they were, they were, they had to sit by the base of a tree with a rope around their neck and their hands tied behind their back. They were, they were fed and everything you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: They weren’t ill-treated.
Interviewer: So when you, when you were with this band of, of partisans were you operating in the area of Ciney all the time?
KT: Oh yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We walked everywhere. We walked everywhere, you know. We were [pause] we were by a railway where there was a steep bank.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the trains used to chug up there very slowly you see and they used to stop the train, blow up the track with a little bit of plastic. Yeah. You had the load, the last wagon let it roll down until it overturned and they’d drive the train into it.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: Do you understand?
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And that sort of thing.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Cutting down telegraph poles as well.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: To —
Interviewer: So these were the kind of things that you and your three pals were getting involved with as well then.
KT: Yes. Oh yeah, we got involved with it.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So were you the only four British servicemen helping this group out at the time?
KT: That we knew about. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Also, they’d got a couple of Russians there that were a bit dodgy [laughs] but we felt that one would have belonged to the KGB. The other one was alright. There was one Frenchman and the rest were Belgian youngsters, you know.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: They would, if they’d have been free they would have been sent off to work camps and things like that.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah. So, when you were operating with this particular group, Ken, I mean did you have any particularly dodgy moments or —
KT: Well, yes we did. We had one funny moment that I must tell you about.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I think. One night the chief said to the four of us he wanted to take us to dinner at his chateau and so we left at about I suppose 11 o’clock at night [unclear] he took three of us. [unclear] we went past like three little lakes and we eventually came to this chateau and we had a meal there and all the time the Germans were guarding the entrances to the, it was like an estate. You know like we have estates in our country.
Interviewer: Country estates do you mean?
KT: Country estates.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: And he’d gone one of these lodges you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And the Germans were there [laughs] and we were having a meal at the back in the chateau.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It was funny.
Interviewer: Yeah. So you never thought that that might be particularly dangerous. I mean if —
KT: No. They didn’t think it would be either.
Interviewer: Oh right. Right.
KT: We just went along with them you know.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
KT: We weren’t frightened or anything like that.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: I mean I don’t, I don’t know what would have happened if they had come up because they were long drives you know but anyway nothing happened. We listened to the BBC at 12 o’clock to see where the line was, you know. We used to get different where the main line was, this was our troops.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: The Americans were sending out probes you know. Seven or eight tanks were going on ahead.
Interviewer: Oh yeah. Yeah.
KT: Getting everything up.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And eventually we got behind one of those. That’s how we [pause] What happened as I say we went out. We wanted to move camp so we went out to get a lorry. Hijack a lorry.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Although it was wartime there were lorries driving about. They just used to hijack one, load up the stuff and move. Move camp and then hitch the lorry somewhere else you see.
Interviewer: What kind of camps did you have then? Were you living out in the country at the time?
KT: In the woods.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Always in the woods.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: We used to make a roof out of like thatch.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: You know.
Interviewer: Yeah. I get the gist yeah.
KT: It wasn’t waterproof or anything like that. I mean if it rained you got wet.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But we, we sort of made a bed out of [unclear] and covered them with leaves and things like that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It wasn’t very comfortable but you managed to get to sleep.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: If it rained you could sleep for about two hours. That was all. Then you woke up and you were cold and wet.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And so we got various cooking utensils so they wanted a lorry to move all these things and there was a cutting where we all, we were on the top and two lorries came along and so our Sten gun [pause] not Sten gun, a Browning. They’d got a Browning gun. They came out and stopped these two lorries but unfortunately there were about forty German troops on the back.
Interviewer: Oh right.
KT: And so of course there was a bit of a fight then. There were bullets flying everywhere. I’m not joking. Trees were dropping down. God it was [pause] that went on for about half an hour I would think. It seemed like a half an hour. I might be wrong.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We, by this time we’d got as I said, we’d got, let me think like an agent and a New Zealander and one or two other RAF lads and this New Zealand fellow, I forget his name now. I’ve been to his grave. He said to the fellow next to him, ‘What’s happening?’ because it had all gone quiet you see and they had, they’d got a new word. We hadn’t heard it very much. Kaput. You’ve probably heard it since. We hadn’t heard it very much. Basically, the German kaput you see. What it meant was don’t stand up because there were Germans there. Well, this fellow thought he meant the Germans had capitulated.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: He stood up and oh God there was a crossfire and he was cut down and so we all dispersed then and we walked I suppose a day and a half around and around. There was four of us and a guide.
Interviewer: You weren’t looking for the Allied line then.
KT: No. No. No. We had —
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: And we eventually got to the shooting lodge which was where [pause] we did well in there for about some days. Twenty four of us and four, our four. A complete fortress. And Alf I think has been with the pilot of that crew. Anyway, then there were various other bods. I can’t remember now. There were twenty four of us and one day we set off and we walked for forty miles. It took us fourteen hours to walk forty miles and we got to what we since found out was a place called [Massy]. M A S S, I think. [Massy.]
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I’ve been there. I’ve been there. And we were at an orphanage. There were, the orphanage was built for children and we were in the stables and the cowsheds at the back.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And we were there for about three or four days I would think and then one morning about 6 o’clock, it might have been earlier than that, we used to get up fairly early and I had to go outside and I could see the Germans were surrounding us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: So I nipped in smartly, got the guide, took him out and he had a look and there were four, there were four lads who were sick. They were in the orphanage and the twenty of us we ran up the hill to a field. It was quite a sharp incline and I’m halfway up there and there was a bank about four feet high and we started to run up this hill and as soon as the Germans saw us they started firing. The twenty of us took off. That doesn’t half give your feet some speed [laughs] and I mean we cleared this bank, three to four feet high. We cleared that and we got up to the top. Of course once we got to the top and started running down the Germans couldn’t fire at us you see. We were on the other side.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: We went down this hill like nobody’s business and at the bottom there was a river. Oh, I don’t know how far it must have been but I’ll tell you what I think it was twenty lads jumped in and one, at one stroke and they were up the other side. I suppose once we got over the other side we were in the woods again and they lost us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But of course we were all soaking wet and miserable. That was at about half six in the morning. I think we stayed there until, until about 10 o’clock and then suddenly shots started to come across whistling over the top and then they went back again. Then they went. Anyway, at about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we said to the guide [unclear] this was the Belgian, ‘Go and see if you can find out.’ Well, he went off. Everything had gone quiet and suddenly, it must have been a couple of hours later I mean I don’t know how I’m going for time because I can’t remember very much.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: But about a couple of hours later we heard a tank coming into the woods. We thought that’s it, he’s been captured and he’s told them where we are. Anyway, we heard a tank arrived. It was a jeep without any silencer and there were two Yanks on it that were as drunk as [unclear] and of course it was all friendly then. They gave us cigarettes and they gave us cognac and we were all —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We were all keeling over.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then we all got on to this jeep and they took us into the town of [Massy]. What had happened one of these tank columns had come through into the town of [Massy] and started firing. Then the Germans had pushed them out again. And the Americans had pushed them back again and that was it. Well, the villagers were there and they greeted us like we were [unclear] well it was wonderful really. They decided to get out food and bottles of beer that they had. Just outside the town there were two Germans [unclear] and that’s it. We waited there until the column decided to go back. The lorries that brought all the supplies up to these tank columns because the tank column had gone on there but the lorries had got to go back for supplies and they took us back with them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And then we, we had to make our way back then.
Interviewer: So, how long did it take you to get back to the UK then? Did they fly you out?
KT: Well, when —
Interviewer: Did they?
KT: No. They, yeah well they did when we got back to, we got back to the Hotel Maurice, well we would say Maurice I suppose.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But they called it the Maurice. I was lucky because we had various. All the Americans wanted to go forward and it was difficult to get these to go back.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But eventually after a lot of trouble we found half a dozen lorries that were going. Going right back to Paris and so one of us got in one of these lorries.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I think one lorry took one person you see.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And oh it was marvellous. I think we had one or two nights on the road.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: The first day we got there they’d got bacon. Bacon that we cooked on a little primer stove. They were well geared up you know and ham. Ham and pork and so eventually I got back to Paris and the next day they flew us back home.
Interviewer: Yeah. So did you fly back to Leconfield straightaway then?
KT: Oh no. We flew back to Hendon.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yeah.
KT: Where we had to [laughs] this was very funny. They immediately put us through the Customs [laughs]
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: We had to go through Customs.
Interviewer: Yeah. Anything to declare, eh? Yeah. Just as a matter of interest Ken what did you, what did you think of the idea of becoming part of the ground, the ground forces once you’d joined this Resistance movement. Did you volunteer for that or was it expected of you?
KT: Well, we were just with a Maquis group and we still had [unclear] and I don’t think we really thought about it.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: No, it was —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: [unclear] had to be done I suppose.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: They liked the fact that we were [pause] we had a little bit of discipline. I mean this was a rabble you know. It was just a rabble. They hadn’t got any, they hadn’t got any training or anything like that.
Interviewer: No. No.
KT: The chief I suppose he was trained after a fashion. You know he started this Maquis group because he didn’t choose to be occupied I suppose.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: The main thing was to cause the Germans as much trouble as possible without killing any. They took it all in good part unless any of their men were killed. But then if there were any Germans killed they took it out on the villagers you know. [unclear]
Interviewer: Right. So you mentioned a couple of things that you get up to was felling telegraph poles.
KT: Telegraph poles.
Interviewer: And derailing. Derailing trains.
KT: Yeah. Well, yeah. It was communications all the time.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
KT: Why the Germans didn’t guard this railway track I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: They went back time and time again.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, that’s true. Yeah. I think I’ve, I think I’ve got the gist there now and obviously what I’m going to do is I’m going to rewrite this particular piece and blend a good part of what you’ve told me into that. I think when we were having a chat I was telling you that the photographs that Alf lent me a copy is a bit of blur. I mean I sort of —
KT: That’s right.
Interviewer: Do you have anything that might be a bit better?
KT: I’ll have a look. I know I’ve got one of the crew that is quite good.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: We went to, I think we went to a proper place to have it done. I don’t know. I’ll see if I can find that. I’ll try and find it.
Interviewer: Well, I mean I would just need to borrow it for about it takes about ten days. Just long enough to take a picture and get it developed and make sure that it’s a good copy that’s all and then it will be back in the post to you. Yeah.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: If there is anything else you want to know.
Interviewer: Of course you presumably once you got back to the UK after a period of rest you’d be back on operations were you?
KT: No. No. It’s no, we, I went as a navigational instructor.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: At [pause] at a place quite close to near Stourbridge. Near Stourbridge.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
KT: Halfpenny Green. I’m just looking for your letter to see that I’ve got for your phone number.
Interviewer: Yeah. It’ll be, it’ll be on the top. The top left-hand side.
KT: Right. Bill Norman.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I think, I don’t know if I told you that one day when we were in this shooting lodge of King Leopold. I’ve got photographs of all these by the way.
Interviewer: Did they let you have a camera there then?
KT: No. I’ve been when I went.
Interviewer: Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah.
KT: I photographed the chateau where we were.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: But you know we were forewarned I suppose because we hadn’t got anything to do.
Interviewer: Right.
KT: And so two of us went out. Went and got the other road because the retreat was on. You’ve got to remember the Germans were straggling back. They’d had a hell of a beating. Some were walking. Perhaps checking their rifles, some on bikes and we got into a deep ditch. Deep enough for us to be covered with foliage you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It was dry. There was no rain and we were just watching and then suddenly tanks were coming by as well but suddenly the RAF came over, Spitfires came over and started strafing them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And of course we were in this ruddy ditch.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: So, the Germans vacated their, the tanks. They all went into the woods.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And I was frightened if they had gone a bit further they would have come to this shooting lodge where all the lads were.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: But we had to stay in this, this trench for about two hours because we daren’t get out because the Germans were still there. They stopped and had some lunch and then they went off and then —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And of course when they went we, we went back to —
Interviewer: You were lucky that some of the German soldiers didn’t start piling in to the ditch.
KT: Well, yeah we were. At that particular time though as I say there were tanks going by.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And they just peeled off into the woods and we were stood there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: And that was, that was a bit frightening.
Interviewer: Yeah. Sounds it.
KT: Mind you, at the time we didn’t feel frightened.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. You must be a different man to me then I think. I would have been wondering all the time.
KT: Yeah [laughs] we knew there were tanks. As long as we kept down there of course they couldn’t see us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Because as I say it was a ditch but it was covered over with foliage. They might have jumped in there I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Dennis Barr, going back to the aircraft then presumably he piled in with the aircraft did he?
KT: Pardon?
Interviewer: Dennis Barr, he sort of, he sort of piled in with the aircraft. He —
KT: Well, Alf could remember seeing a couple of bodies when he was captured and as I say he went, they took him and he saw two parachutes obviously being burned went out with them. They’d been scorched and he saw two, not bodies but two coffins.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Coffins.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Which were for the two lads.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: They are buried by the way at a place called Hotton.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
KT: In March.
Interviewer: Yeah. I’ve, one of the things in this, in this manuscript is the, it’s a Roll of Honour for all of the 640 guys who didn’t make it together with the, the night that they were lost. The target that they were lost over.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: And where they, where they are buried. I don’t have that in front of me at the minute but I know for a fact that I have got it.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: I have got it.
KT: Well, I there again I’ve got a photograph of the blokes. I’ve been over there you know.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
KT: [unclear] ok. Anything, when I put the phone down now I’ll go and get my photographs out and see if I can find —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: It might take me some time. If I can —
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: I’ll send them off to you.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well, as I say, Ken I need them just for about ten days or so just to get copies done and get the prints back.
KT: Yeah.
Interviewer: And then they’ll be back in the post to you.
KT: Ok then.
Interviewer: Ok. Well, thanks very much for your time.
KT: I hope I’ve been of some help.
Interviewer: Yeah. Of course you have. Yeah.
KT: If there is anything else you want to know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
KT: Give me a ring.
Interviewer: Lovely. Ok, Ken. Well, thanks for your time.
KT: Ok.
Interviewer: Right. Bye.
KT: Bye bye.
Interviewer: Bye now.
Collection
Citation
“Interview with Ken Trueman,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed August 13, 2026, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/58256.
Item Relations
| This Item | dcterms:relation | Item: Servicemen in front of Stirling |