Interview with Jim Gray

Interview with Jim Gray

Stationed at 640 Squadron at RAF Leconfield Jim Gray recalled an occasion when having been briefed for an operation to Trappes airmen having a drink in Beverley heard the local townspeople talking openly about the operation. Since the operation was compromised it was cancelled but the next day the operation was to the same destination and the Luftwaffe was waiting for the RAF. Jim recalled they could navigate to/from the target by the burning aircraft on the ground. On the occasion when they were diverted to RAF Lissett where they waited after debriefing for their flying meal. The WAAFs were clearly distraught as it became clear that only one aircraft from the squadron had returned from operations.

01:17:50 audio recording

This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.

AGrayJ960613

Interviewer: Start on this then.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Jim, and I mean if you can, well as I say when you got this you sent this letter to me you were talking about the trip to Trappes on the 2nd and 3rd of June.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: And you said it was, it was rough going out and it was rough coming back.
JG: Well —
Interviewer: So would it be possible to do as Alf did and give us your recollections of that trip?
JG: Well, I’d better start on the 31st of May when our crew was briefed to go to Trappes which was a marshalling yard outside Paris and it was oval shaped with a narrow neck. We were to bomb one end. We were told we might see light flak and searchlights on the coast going in and nothing much else. Anyway, we went to the target and bombed. We came all the way back and it was a very uneventful trip.
Interviewer: Yeah. This was the one in May.
JG: This was the one on the 31st of May.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Right. We got back on the 2nd or 1st of June and we were very pleased it was such an easy trip. Well, the following day we were on the Battle Order again but we didn’t, this time when the Battle Order was produced in the early hours, early on the morning we didn’t know what the target was. We didn’t know until the afternoon when we were briefed but some officers [pause] I can’t remember whether they were ground or air had been down to Beverley during the morning. They’d gone into the Beverley Arms for a drink and they’d heard it being said in the Beverley Arms by civilians that 640 Squadron was going to Trappes that night. They immediately came back to Leconfield and informed the squadron commander and the station commander what they had heard down in Beverley. That was obviously very disturbing because we found this out after. Later on in the day. We went to the briefing room as arranged and we were told that the op to Trappes had been cancelled as what had been heard in Beverley and the whole, the whole of Bomber Command from the other squadrons who were going to go to Trappes that night had been scrubbed as well and they weren’t going anywhere. They feared that if civilians of Beverley knew the Germans might know and they’d be waiting for us. Anyway, the following day we were on the Battle Order again. Once again it was Trappes and we went off and we were told that the Germans might be waiting for us.
Interviewer: What? Fighters you mean.
JG: Fighters, yeah and flak and searchlights. As it turned out as we were progressing across the Channel German night fighters met us.
Interviewer: What? As you were over the Channel?
JG: As we were over the Channel they came out and met us and as we, after we, as we were crossing the coast the flak opened up on us. Mainly light stuff with searchlights and very soon after that there was an aircraft burning on the ground and it was like that all the way to the target. You could have navigated to the target with burning aircraft on the ground and fighters were very active. We were avoiding them. As rear gunner I was keeping my eye open for fighters. Flak was moderate until we got to the target and it was heavy over the target.
Interviewer: What were the weather conditions on this particular trip then, Jim?
JG: The weather conditions were good. Very good. We were flying about eighteen thousand feet and we could see the ground very very clearly at that particular time. If I remember rightly in there, in there they say it was a bit cloudy over the target but leading up to the target it was clear. The fighters obviously were milling around after us. Anyway, we, we bombed the target and turned for home and we’d been flying on our way home for a short time and one or two more aircraft went down. So, you could, the ones on the way in were still burning so started navigating the way back out by burning aircraft and we’d been flying for some quarter of an hour or so when I spotted a Lancaster coming up on our starboard quarter. Told the pilot about this so he said, ‘Oh, that’s good. That’s two more comers. That will help us out if a fighter comes along.’ And he flew like that for about half an hour and there was still aircraft going down and for some unknown reason the Lancaster crossed my starboard quarter to our, almost our port beam. Just completely changed from one side to the other and we could see no particular reason why he did this and he’d been flying in that position for a few minutes and all of a sudden it disintegrated. I could see nothing that caused it to disintegrate and afterwards I thought it must have been a German fighter come underneath him with an upward firing gun and just blew him to pieces with, you know first or second shot, you know. It just disintegrated. I called the pilot up and told him what had happened. He said, him being a Dutchman in his broken English he said, ‘Thank God that bloke moved over and took our place or it would have been us.’ Which was true. Anyway, we kept going. By that time we were fairly close to the coast and there was the odd, the odd aircraft still going down.
Interviewer: When you say fairly close to the coast Jim are you talking about the French coast now?
JG: The French coast. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: Yeah, and we crossed over the French coast and were heading back across the Channel and there were still dogfights. You could see the tracer as we were crossing the Channel so the fighters followed us out. We come up country to over the English coast and up country with no problems at all. As far as we knew we’d only been hit by small pieces of flak, nothing much and we got to Leconfield. Called up for permission to land. This was refused and we were told to circle. There was a 466 Squadron aircraft had caught fire and was on the runway. It was blocking the runway. I should imagine, we couldn’t see but I take it it was an engine or something like that. So we were told to circle. The pilot said that you know we couldn’t circle because we were virtually out of fuel and they still ignored us and told us to circle. So he called them up and said, ‘I am diverting to Carnaby,’ which was the emergency airfield near Bridlington. Now, quite by chance two or three days before our crew plus a few more crews had been taken to Carnaby and we found out how it operated like bulldozing damaged aircraft off the runway to make way for others coming in to save lives sort of business. So we headed for Carnaby and when we turned over the church in Bridlington, I can’t remember the name of the church it had a very tall spire and it still stands and we just missed it. We just missed the spire. We hit the runway just at the edge of the runway just over the boundary fence and over the undershoot area and landed on the runway and when we were going down the tarmac one engine cut out short of fuel and the others were spluttering as we got off the runway and cut the motors. And the pilot jumped out and said to, having been to Carnaby we knew their setup, the pilot jumped out and said, ‘Don’t bulldoze this aircraft. It’s a good aircraft.’ So anyway that was, that was undamaged and we were taken by lorry to a room in Carnaby and we were partly debriefed. Not fully. Just partly debriefed.
Interviewer: Was that the usual practice when guys landed at Carnaby then? The debriefing went on there.
JG: Well —
Interviewer: Or wherever you landed.
JG: When we went, normally where you landed.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Now, we were told when we went around Carnaby two or three days before that they did debriefing there and it was a surprise to us that we were going to be debriefed. Anyway, they partially debriefed us and they said, they must have had a phone call from somewhere I think, they said, ‘You’ve got to go to 158 Squadron at Lissett to be debriefed.’ Now, why they didn’t take us to Leconfield which was, you know not all that far away.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: So they took us to 158 and we were debriefed there and the debriefing officer said, ‘Well, you’ve got to go to the, got to go to the Mess now for a meal.’ So, lovely. They said, ‘The transport will eventually come from Leconfield for you.’ So we went to the Mess and there was all these WAAFs stood behind the counter ready to serve up meals. 158 had obviously been operating that night but there was none of them back at that particular time and they grudgingly gave us our flying meal. So I think they thought we were eating the meals for their own crews. And we’d just about finished our meal when in came a crew and I knew one of the gunners. He’d been at the Gunnery School with me and I said to him, ‘That was a rough trip tonight.’ He said, ‘No. It was a piece of cake.’ I said, ‘You’ve got to be joking.’ I said, ‘You could navigate all the way there and all the way back by just looking at the burning wrecks on the ground.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘They were spoofs.’ I suppose you’ve come across the word spoof before. I said, ‘That’s a load of rubbish,’ I said, ‘They were real aircraft.’ Of course, our pilot agreed they were real aircraft. Anyway, they got their meal and sat down. As time went on before our transport came the WAAFs faces were getting longer and longer and longer realising that the crews from their squadron couldn’t still be in the air because they wouldn’t have had fuel to last all that long length of time. Eventually the tears started coming and they were crying their eyes out when we left that being one crew back. Only one crew back. Now, I believe 158 that night put up seven or eight aircraft. I wouldn’t be sure exactly how many. I believe there was one or two, one or two force landed elsewhere in the country but five out of that small number were shot down from Lissett. Anyway, we got back to Leconfield, woke up the parachute packer half past six time in the morning and asked him about those that had gone missing. He said, ‘Oh, Weinberg’s crew’s gone for a burton.’ That surprised us though because we were Weinberg’s crew. He hadn’t caught on he was taking parachutes from Weinberg’s crew. We then went to back to our billets blooming tired to find that our lockers had been cleared of all our gear except for our [webbing], the gas mask [unclear] everything else had gone and we went to bed. When we eventually woke up we opened our lockers to find that everything was back much to our surprise. But it was a great shock to find our gear had gone so quick. It just shows you how quick news does spread that a crew has gone missing.
Interviewer: Actually, when, when you opened your locker and you saw that the cupboard was bare, a bit like old Mother Hubbard I mean did you have a particular, a particular feeling then? An immediate reaction, Jim?
JG: I said, ‘Bloody hell. The bastards.’ [laughs]
Interviewer: Right [laughs] yeah.
JG: Or words to that effect.
Interviewer: Yeah. Words, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: So was it as swift as that then?
JG: Yeah. You see, what it was it was all mates from our, from our room you see.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Our room I think had sixteen in it you see. Not all from one crew you see. Just part of about three or four crews in our room. As a matter of fact —
Interviewer: Oh, you mean it was the guys in the room that had cleared your locker.
JG: Oh yeah. Not the Committee of Adjustment.
Interviewer: Oh right. Right.
JG: Oh, if it had been the Committee of Adjustment we wouldn’t have got anything back from that thieving lot.
Interviewer: Oh right. Right.
JG: You see quite by chance, we didn’t know until afterwards Alf and I were both on the same level in the billet by the cookhouse at Leconfield. He was in one room when you go up the stairs and off to the right and we were in one room off to the left you see. We didn’t know at the time. But it was our, people in our room that we gambled with and that you know when we had been briefed. We always used to gamble when we’d been briefed and whoever won the money at Pontoon put it in their locker. If they didn’t come back those who had been playing with them shared the money out afterwards you see.
Interviewer: Right. Just tell me a bit more then. When you were going on ops you had a card game.
JG: We always played Pontoon.
Interviewer: Was this partly about superstition then?
JG: It was our routine.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yes. Yeah.
JG: We played Pontoon and sometimes for fairly high stakes. Ten shillings a card. Now, in those days that was a lot of money.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Normally it was sixpence and —
Interviewer: Right.
JG: Yeah, you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And as I say whoever won the money was put in the locker and the lockers weren’t locked and if that crew that had won the money didn’t come back then in the morning it was all divided up between the others who had been in the game.
Interviewer: Oh right.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: So you didn’t just play among your own crew then. It was everybody who was in that —
JG: It was at least —
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Four or five.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Four or five blokes would be playing the game. Maybe more.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Playing a game of Pontoon. This was, this was a ritual in our room. Now, it may be entirely different in other rooms.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So what was your, I mean I know that your crew had this hooter that you played.
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Was that part of your superstition as well then?
JG: Oh yeah. We wouldn’t fly without it.
Interviewer: Can you remember the particular routine that you had for that?
JG: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Was there a routine?
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Actually, I think you might have told me about this.
JG: Yeah, well —
Interviewer: Two blasts when you were coming in.
JG: Yeah. Two blasts when we were coming in.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And the pilot always carried it aboard the aircraft and fetched it off the aircraft and he stowed it in his flying locker in the, in the parachute room. That’s where it was kept.
Interviewer: What about your guys, Alf? Did you have a particular superstition as well then? Something that would keep you safe when you were on operations and so on. A routine or a mascot or a —
Other: I still have it. A stocking. A silk stocking.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: Obviously from my girlfriend. She’s my wife now.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: Sent me that. I used to wear it around my neck.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
Other: That was the superstition and it was showing off a little bit you know.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: When I’d seen it on the Yanks of course. No. When we got in the aircraft on take-off any loose bod sat in the rest position between the spars for safety. Well, the navigator he never did. He would stand back with the pilot you know sticking his nose in. The wireless operator [Bill Edgar] and myself we always sat there and our routine was always the same. As soon as we were airborne we could move in and he used to tap me on the head like that [laughs] He had a [unclear] and I hit him across the backside you know and he always did that you know and we always did that and we never missed. I think that was a sort of —
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: We’d done it once.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: Now, we’ve got to do it every time.
Interviewer: You were aware of last time.
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: So let’s keep it going just in case. Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. It’s surprising you talk about the silk stocking. A rear gunner with 195 that I got to know very well in fact, I’ve written a number of things about him. He used to have a pair of silk drawers his girlfriend gave him.
Other: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: He used to wear them in the manner of a scarf.
Other: Yeah.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: And each time he finished a trip he used to stitch on the name of the destination. You see, I was talking to him a couple of years back. I was up at his house and he produced this thing and he’s got them all there — Neuss, Bonn, Berlin. Yeah. So I wrote a piece about him in the Northern Echo. Gave him a full spread. He was thrilled to bits about it.
JG: Our bomb aimer, the Mauritian he wouldn’t fly without, I don’t know where he got it from he had this lady’s underslip he used to wear around his neck as a scarf and he wouldn’t fly without that.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah. So he was well covered then. He was playing cards, he had the slip and —
JG: Oh no. He was, he was an officer so they didn’t play cards.
Interviewer: Oh right. Yeah.
JG: It was only the NCOs you see.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Ok.
Other: When I was shot down the Germans never took it.
Interviewer: Well, there was only one.
Other: Yeah. I know.
Interviewer: There can’t have been that many one-legged women in Germany.
Other: They were all for recycling you know in them [laughs]
Interviewer: Oh right.
Other: But they never took it. I never understood that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: I’ve still got it.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. Do you know it’s about a year or so ago I was getting ready to, I was going to write an article on superstitions and I put a little letter in the Bomber Command Association News.
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: The newsletter and a number of folks wrote to me. About ten or fifteen guys wrote to me about these various rituals and things that they had.
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: And one guy had an old Craven A cigarette packet that he’s still got you know. He says it, he says, ‘It stood me in good stead then.’
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: ‘And it has set me in good stead since.’ But an old fellow that I know, Don Hibbert who used to fly with 10, 10 Squadron he said that he was never superstitious. He ended up as a base gunnery leader. He said, ‘I was never superstitious, Bill ever. Ever.’ Then he thought of it and he said, ‘Mind you, I remember once,’ he said, ‘We were queuing, waiting to take off and we were standing outside the aircraft and Tom [Sawyer] came on, he was the group captain at the time obviously and he must have noticed that I was a bit on edge and when he asked me he said, Don said, ‘Well, I’ve left my penny in the locker.’ Apparently he had a penny that he used to, he always to finger it you know.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, and Sawyer said, ‘Don’t be a bloody idiot get yourself in that turret and get yourself off,’ because he knew Don quite, quite well. Anyway, he disappeared then Sawyer and ten minutes later he came back breathless. He said, ‘There’s your bloody penny. Now, get yourself off.’ Yeah. So the group captain —
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Went back to get this penny for Don. But Don wasn’t superstitious.
JG: No.
Interviewer: But he always had his penny with him.
JG: Hibbert. Don.
Interviewer: Don Hibbert. He’s —
JG: [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah. He actually died in September.
JG: I used to meet him at [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: He was a grand chap.
Interviewer: Yeah. Oh, he’s a nice, he was very helpful to me, Don. I take his, well my wife and I take Elsie Hibbert down to the 10 Squadron, they have a luncheon club every Sunday you know.
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: With the bombers and we take —
[recording paused]
JG: Another superstitions with our crew officer over girls and that. The chief catering officer asked our pilot one day if she could bring the WAAFs over to have a look at our aircraft because our aircraft was quite famous at the time for having Bambi on it.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: And he said, ‘Yes, but on one condition. That neither you nor any of the WAAFs go inside the aircraft.’ So she agreed that they wouldn’t go inside the aircraft.
Interviewer: Was this because that was part of another of his superstitions?
JG: Oh, it was.
Interviewer: The [unclear].
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: We felt it was unlucky to associate with women or girls you see.
Interviewer: What? In the aircraft or —
JG: No.
Interviewer: Anywhere.
JG: Anywhere. Anywhere. Oh yeah. In our crew. That was maybe just our crew.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Anyway, when we went out to get ready to go. No. To get ready to check the aircraft all the bombs had got chalking on like, “With love to Adolf,” and “Kisses from — ” so and so, and every bomb was absolutely covered with chalk. Writings, drawings and what have you. So the pilot was furious and he went to the flight sergeant fitter and said, ‘Look I know the WAAFs have been here. I can tell by their, you know, what’s written on the bombs. Have any of those girls been inside the aircraft?’ And he said, ‘I can assure you, sir they weren’t because I made sure of that.’ And at one stage I thought our pilot was going to refuse to take that aircraft and that bomb load or maybe change his mind and demand fresh bombs because these had got writing on them from these WAAFs. He was so superstitious that that was how he felt.
Interviewer: Would he have actually got away with that then?
JG: He would because he was very well thought of and we were one of the senior crews you see and he could even tell the senior people what to do and got away with it. Even though as a sergeant it was the same thing but I got away with it as well without being court martialled.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: That’s a different story.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But he was mad and when we came back that night that same catering officer was on duty and he really tore into her and gave her hell for letting the WAAFs chalk on our bombs. Now, if a bloke chalked on them —
Interviewer: That would be alright.
JG: That was alright.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But not the females.
Interviewer: Yeah. It’s strange that isn’t it? You know.
JG: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: That all of these. I can understand it. It’s strange these sort of odd little idiosyncrasies.
JG: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was the same when we used to go out at night down, most of us well we’d go into the Beverley Arms. Be in the Beverley Arms until the night fighters appeared. You know what night fighters are? Then we retreated to the —
Interviewer: Oh, these night fighters were on the ground were they?
JG: Yeah. Female night fighters.
Interviewer: Oh right. Oh, I see. I didn’t know what you meant [laughs]
JG: Yeah. Yeah. That’s what we called them.
Interviewer: Oh right.
JG: Night fighters appeared and we retreated to the Cattle Market which was our local pub.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: For our crew and maybe one or two other crews.
Interviewer: Is that another pub in Beverley?
JG: The Cattle Market. It’s in the Cattle Market itself and a bloke called Gray kept it. By chance the same name as me. And there used to be a crowd of ATS girls get in there and they’d be saying to each of us each night when we went in, ‘And who are you drinking to tonight?’ Oh, so and so went for a burton. So and so has gone on ops tonight. We always had an excuse for drinking but we never associated. We’d be on the one end of the room —
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And they’d be at the other and we never associated with them at all.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Except that to pass, you know, ‘Good evening,’ and all that and what are you, what’s the excuse for drinking tonight which and that which if we weren’t flying our crew if we weren’t flying we were drinking every night.
Interviewer: Yeah. So that was your entertainment then was it?
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Actually that was this idea of keeping the girls at bay then must have made you almost unique among [pause] well within Bomber Command not just within 640 Squadron.
JG: Well, no. No, there was quite a few crews like it.
Interviewer: Was there?
JG: Because a lot of people I’ve met when we’ve had our reunions and talked about going to the cinema and going to dances. Well, to our crew going to the cinema and dances was a waste of drinking time. We never went, I never went to the cinema at Leconfield, in Beverley.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And never never into a dance hall in Beverley.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: And the only time we went to a cinema was when we were briefed for D-Day and we were marched with the SPs with loaded sten guns to the cinema with Group Captain [Walkerhouse] leading us to the cinema to watch a flipping film once you know we’d been briefed for D-Day and that was the only time I went to, went to a cinema when I was at Leconfield.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And we were marched there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Under duress.
Interviewer: Yeah. So did you always go out as a crew then? Always.
JG: Well, a big chunk of the crew. Sometimes complete but with other parts of crews from our, from our room.
Interviewer: So tell me how do you cope with this artificial difference when folks went out on operations you were all in the same team and you were all pulling together.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: But once you landed the officers went to one Mess and you guys went to another.
JG: Oh no. Oh, well we all had our meal together. We had our flying meal together.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And then we would go back to our billet and they’d go back to their billet.
Interviewer: Yeah. Did that strike you as being a bit artificial though?
JG: No.
Interviewer: I mean you were all facing the same dangers weren’t you?
JG: We just took it for, just took it for granted.
[recording paused]
Other: We were an all NCO crew.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: Getting shot down.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: But I had the interview as pilot, navigator and wireless op and the commissions were about to come through but at the time we were all NCOs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: So we never had separate Messes you know.
Interviewer: No. No.
Other: I don’t know what it would have been like to have had a mixed crew to begin with.
JG: It was no problem to us.
Interviewer: Yes. Is that because the Dutch are gregarious and the Mauritians are gregarious then?
JG: Yeah and well we all got on so well. Even, you see we were called the Dutch Flying Circus because our, because our, such a mixed crew you see.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Dutch, Mauritian, Canadian, Welsh, Scots. Two Scots.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: So we were all —
Interviewer: A fella called Jock Baxter —
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: I think he must have been on your servicing crews I think.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: He loaned me a photograph. I’ve sent it back to him now. I took a copy and I sent it back and its obviously at the end of your tour which is you were all absolutely wreathed in smiles and your arms around everyone and there are lots of ground crew guys intermingled with you.
JG: Well, the day we arrived on the squadron to start at Leconfield our pilot, a Dutchman, very headstrong we had done three little flights in the aircraft and when we landed on the first flight, the first flight he swung badly and in the middle of the airfield was an imitation field growing beans and it had an imitation fence like a bush hedge around it with little bits of barbed wire and little stakes. Well, we swung and we went right through that barbed wire trailing the barbed wire with the tail wheel and the control tower called us up and told him to stop where he was and they would come and pull him out. With that he opened up the engines, turned around and came back on the same tracks and went back to the dispersal. We never heard another word about that. That just shows you the sort of person he was.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But he got the nickname of Pranger Weinberg after that.
Interviewer: Yeah [laughs]
JG: For the landing.
Interviewer: Yeah. So what happened to the beans then? That would have been the end of the beanstalk.
JG: Oh no the beans were [unclear] they were only young.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
JG: Only would have grown to that height.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: They were winter beans.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: It was about a five-acre piece smack in the middle of the airfield not far from our pan.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Anyway, I suppose it was camouflaged to make it out it was a farm.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: So that was —
Interviewer: Did you say he actually backed it out?
JG: No. He turned around.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: He opened up two engines and swung around and come back up the same tracks.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yes. Right. Right.
JG: Well, I bet flying control was mad.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: And then —
Interviewer: Was it, was it you who were saying that when you had that arm sort of painted on the —
JG: Yeah. Which had got slower.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: So, somebody, somebody —
JG: Well, we had the arm painted on when she started to get slower. She’d done a lot of ops because she was way behind with the bombs. She was at least eight behind with the bombs on the side when those photographs were taken. They just couldn’t keep up with, not only from our raids but other crews that had had her as well. So she started to get slower and the ground staff suggested having a stick with a carrot and the pilot holding it and of course he was, he was a paratrooper as well as a pilot. He was a Dutch paratrooper.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: As well as a pilot. So on that was this flight lieutenant and the other one was the paratrooper wings only when we went to take off the first time on an air test or something the ACP gave us a red and the control tower called up, he must have been on the phone to the control. The control tower called up, told the pilot to take his arm in and close the window before take-off. With that the pilot opened up the throttles and went.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: Never answered. Just went belting off.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And of course the ACP did feel an idiot. When the pilot landed —
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: With that side next to him again.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And the pilot’s arm still out.
Interviewer: [laughs] Yes. Yeah.
JG: Yeah. So —
Interviewer: So the name of your aircraft was Bambi wasn’t it?
JG: Bambi. It was N-Nan but it was nicknamed Bambi.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So yours what what? Molescroft Maggie.
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: Molescroft Maggie.
Other: I understand from my chap at the Archives —
Interviewer: Mike Wood.
Other: Mike Wood and I was looking at a paper on that and it were named because it was on the nearest dispersal to Molescroft.
Interviewer: Oh yes.
Other: But we all said it was named after a lady of ill repute. We didn’t know.
JG: Molescroft Maggie.
Interviewer: Who lived in Molescroft. Yeah.
JG: Molescroft was on the outskirts of Beverley.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Actually, when I, when I go back today I’m going to go through Beverley looking for the Beverley Arms. It is, is that the one just across the road from the Memorial?
Other: Yes. That’s right.
JG: Just dead opposite.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Because I think it was Bill Goodrum was saying that the back room there just hasn’t changed in fifty —
JG: The back. I haven’t not been in the back room. We called it the back [unclear] the Beverley Arms and that’s where we would be drinking until the night fighters came out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And then when they came we retreated.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: To the other pubs.
Interviewer: Yeah. I thought there must have been a [unclear] fighter squadron somewhere near you. These guys used to come in to that —
Other: Leaving suddenly and I never once and I never have been in the Beverley Arms.
Interviewer: Have you not?
Other: No.
Interviewer: It seems —
Other: Mind you our crew was not like Jim’s crew. It was very rare we drank together. Our crew didn’t seem to bother about drink. The navigator was married anyhow I mean. The rear gunner and myself we were the two who boozed. The engineer was more for the women you know what I mean?
Interviewer: He wasn’t superstitious then.
Other: But the rest [unclear] was very good. We’d often take the ground crew and we used to go to Molescroft. The Molescroft Arms. We used to go that pub there then. That’s the only time we ever —
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Got really [pause] oh at wireless training did a bit but —
Interviewer: A number, a number of folks who have been in touch with me have mentioned an all-ranks club. Does that ring a bell with you? It was established either, some guys thought it was established by the Nuffield Trust or something.
Other: Should have —
Interviewer: Where folks could go for a, for a beer and members of the same n crew but different ranks, different —
JG: That, not at Leconfield because when I went on the second tour on 8 Group Pathfinders one of the stations I was on there had one of these all-ranks things where you could meet and have a drink. It was something new. This was in ’45.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: Early ’45. But there wasn’t one at Leconfield. Not when I was there.
Interviewer: Oh, right. Perhaps it was —
JG: It’s like —
Interviewer: A later thing then. Yes.
JG: A later thing. Yeah. But we got up to all sorts of things. We always liked to be first back. On this particular day it was in daylight and we had just landed and I called the pilot up and I said, ‘There’s some aircraft in the funnels immediately behind us.’ He said, ‘Can you see who it is?’ I said, ‘Yes — ’ so and so aircraft. With that when we got onto the perimeter track he opened the throttles because he was really flying coming out of that to get back to dispersal so that the van or the crew bus would come and pick us up first to get back to the briefing room first you see.
Interviewer: Yeah. That wasn’t another one of these superstitions was it?
JG: Oh yes. We had to be back first. No matter how much petrol we had burned up, no matter how we cut corners the navigator and the flight engineer had to cut corners to suit you see.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: Petrol consumption and all that. It was all cut. None of it was flagged.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: Or fixed.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: And we were going, when we landed I forget which runway it was we had to go all the way around to our dispersal point which was near the bomb dump he was going so fast when we were approaching the pan when he swung to go into the pan the tail wheel swung right out on the grass and the tail fin caught the iron fence of the bomb dump which came out at an angle with barbed wire. You know, you’re upright and then you’re at an angle about that much on the top.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And that caught the tail plane, gave it a wallop. So I called the pilot up and told him that we’d hit this. So he said, ‘Do you reckon we were hit by flak?’ I said. ‘Well, you’d better tell them we were hit by flak because you’ve got a blooming great hole in your tail plane.’ So when we were debriefed, oh they came and picked us up first, we beat the other crew and when we got that we were being debriefed they got around to asking us various questions and had we been hit by flak. ‘Oh yes. We were hit by flak all right. There is a little bit of damage. I don’t think it’s too bad.’ Before we were finished the engineering officer came in. He was looking over the intelligence bloke’s shoulder and reading what he’d written and he said, ‘That’s the first time I knew flak had bloody rust on it.’
[laughs]
JG: Because the jagged hole in the tail plane was rusty.
Interviewer: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah [laughs] So actually what did you think of him then? Was he a bit of a wild character then this —
JG: The pilot. Oh yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: So how did the crew respond to that then? I mean did they —
JG: Oh yeah —
Interviewer: Did it take —
JG: We thought it was dead funny.
Interviewer: Oh right.
JG: Yeah. Dead funny.
Interviewer: So you obviously had a lot of confidence in him then.
A marvellous pilot. A marvellous pilot. He was nearly thrown off when we were up in Scotland. He was nearly thrown off for not being big enough to handle a four-engine bomber. He was nearly sent on fighters.
Interviewer: When you say big enough do you mean tall enough?
JG: Yeah. Strong enough.
Interviewer: Oh right.
JG: Strong enough.
Interviewer: Well, looking, having said that looking at some of the, some of the photographs. The crew photographs.
We were all about the same height.
Interviewer: Yeah. But some of them are very, they look very fragile indeed.
JG: Oh some of them were. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: [unclear] about the same way.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. Mind you there would there have been that much brute strength needed then?
Other: If you were damaged. Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: Or when maybe flying on three engines or something like that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: Or if the trim went. Yeah. If the trim went, the trim usually goes [unclear] if that went wrong it could be a bit difficult.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: On the other hand one time we were up flying on an air test or something and unbeknown to me the pilot got somebody else to grab the flight and hold the aircraft steady. He trimmed it, obviously holding the aircraft steady and I heard a bang on the turret doors and I looked around and there was the pilot at the back of the tail turret.
Interviewer: Seeing if you were all right [laughs]
JG: Seeing, yeah [laughs] in the back there making faces.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
JG: And then on our last run —
Interviewer: That must have been reassuring. Did you realise what he’d done?
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Oh right.
JG: Afterwards I had. But I thought for a start he’d just put George in.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: Which was the automatic pilot.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
JG: But on our last raid unbeknown to us I don’t know where he got it from he smuggled a bottle of whisky on board which was illegal and he had it wrapped in a sock and I think he got the ground crew to put it [unclear] in the aircraft and he went on to the aircraft, put his hand around the corner of the door, the tail door and pulled out the bottle of whisky. The ground crew knew all about it. They had steps at the front of the aircraft ready and up it went up these steps [unclear] and he started pouring the whisky over Bambi, all over Bambi and that and the ground staff knew it was going to happen because they’d got the mugs there ready to catch it and there was us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: You know, catching it.
Interviewer: Yeah. That’s —
JG: And of course he didn’t pour it all over.
Interviewer: No.
JG: But a big [pause] a big amount of whisky.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: So they’d already got mugs there for us.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And we all had a nice drop of whisky and by the time we left to be debriefed there was no whisky left.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But there was nothing said. I should think when we went to debriefing we would have absolutely stunk of whisky.
Interviewer: Mind I suppose when you’ve finished your tour and whatnot I mean you wouldn’t have really cared less by that time would you?
JG: No. No, because as soon as we finished our tour there was two or three places that were out of bounds to our squadron and our group really. One was Betty’s Bar in York, why I don’t know and another one was called, oh there was three places. There was Betty’s Bar in York, the Bird in Hand at [unclear] and we’d never been down there anyway or there was the Bear in Leeds. So when we finished our tour the pilot said, ‘Right we’re going to have a look at one of these [dives],’ and we headed straight for a meal at Leeds and we didn’t bother staying to have a drink there. We turned around and came out. The empty bottles were following us out it was so rough.
Interviewer: Was it really?
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: I wonder how 640 said, oh the RAF had said don’t go to the Bear to any, to any crew.
JG: Yeah. That’s right. yeah. yeah. Because of careless talk.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: That was why Betty’s Bar was out of bounds yet Canadians were allowed in there.
Interviewer: Interviewer: Yes.
JG: Some squadrons [unclear] were allowed in there.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: That was what upset us.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: Betty’s Bar.
Interviewer: I always thought Betty’s Bar was a kind of Mecca.
JG: It was. If you go down have you seen that mirror with all the signatures on it?
Interviewer: No. I’m going to.
JG: Downstairs.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: You see a lot of them on. There’s a Gray on there that’s not me.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: [unclear]
Interviewer: Did your fellas get up to anything in particular then Alf.
Other: Myself.
Interviewer: Eh?
Other: No, it was very civilised.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: The navigator, bomb aimer, wireless op and pilot were real Bridge fans. Cards you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: They used to play hours and of course we were the rest, the other three of us weren’t particularly interested in that but we were a happy crew.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: That suited everybody. What to do yourself. The rear gunner, Lefty, we always called him Lefty and it was from ITMA, that wartime programme.
Interviewer: Yes. Tommy Handley.
Other: Tommy Handley.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
Other: Whether he —
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: I joined up with him at Aircrew Receiving Centre and he got called Lefty then. Lefty was up at Middlesbrough, [unclear]
Interviewer: Yes. That’s not far from me.
Other: He had an older friend, an old chap so we adopted him and they used to go to the coast duck shooting and things like that and Lefty was a great shot [unclear]
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: But just before we got sent down [unclear] we were doing clay pigeon shooting [unclear] grouse season opened the season shortly after so Lefty was looking forward to this. We smuggled him out about [unclear] out and I suppose I found it when he cleaned his kit but he made a —
Interviewer: He didn’t, he didn’t make it did he? You see —
Other: No.
Interviewer: Was that [Horrick].
Other: [Horrick]. Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: But the strange thing about it when I came along I went to see his parents. I was talking to his mother and she was originally from Newcastle, a real Geordie and she was telling me that on his last leave he didn’t want to come back. Didn’t want to come back.
Interviewer: To the squadron.
Other: And then he cried. He said [unclear] you know. so I think he knew something. He had a feeling. He must have had a feeling about that. But he was a case. He could gamble. When he was at Lossiemouth with the Canadians I suppose playing Crap and Blackjack.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: And he got on that. One thing led to another. Twenty odd pound and as Jim said in that day and age.
Interviewer: No. Yes.
Other: It was an awful lot.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: And our wireless operator, Bill he was sort of a dad to us. I don’t know why. He was only about three year older than me and he went to, they used to squat around in the Mess you know cross legged.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Bill went to him and he just grabbed like that. Come on. And he helped him to the post office in the camp and he was more or less shunted into town to put it in the bank and he always had that bit in the bank.
Interviewer: Was that Barr? The pilot.
Other: No.
Interviewer: Bill.
Other: No. Dennis at the time.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
Other: No. We always [pause] Dennis was quiet. Very quiet. He lived in Hull so not far to Leconfield. He used to nip home.
Interviewer: Nip home.
Other: That’s why he didn’t get out [unclear]
Interviewer: I don’t, I don’t think there’s a crew photograph of your lot in the, well certainly in the ones that I’ve got.
Other: No. There isn’t. I can’t remember ever taking one. Only the one —
Interviewer: Yeah, I think it seems to have been the practice that when people came on to the squadron they were sort of lined up in a group of seven and then their photographs was taken with names underneath.
JG: Yeah. Well, you know I can’t remember that happening but obviously it did happen because there’s a photograph of me lined up like it but I can’t remember. Always 640 got on the bus and they wanted to get you to dispersal.
Interviewer: Yeah. Pilot at the end.
JG: Yeah. Well, near the end.
Interviewer: Near the end. Yeah. Yeah.
But —
Interviewer: Actually I’ve got two copies of several of your crew. One I think of the whole crew together with Eric —
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Holding a bomb. One with you all in a line and Weinberg’s holding the bomb and then one which I suspect judging by all the smiles around must have been at the end of your, at the end of your tour because you’re all there including the ground crew.
JG: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
Interviewer: And everybody’s sort of —
JG: Smiles.
Interviewer: They are levitating almost.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: [unclear] Weinberg and the ground crew a [unclear] —
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
JG: I told you about the time when we were in a flight. I think it was B-Baker and she was u/s with mag trouble and we didn’t go. We went back to the Sergeant’s Mess and we got absolutely blotto. I heard the first aircraft calling up [unclear] they had to land and be debriefed and we went to try and get a flying meal. We conned our way in to get a flying meal. We got the chance the next day. We were briefed to go to [unclear] That was a flying bomb site.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Pas de Calais area and our pilot as senior crew was leading a daylight formation. It was an Oboe flight. Oboe raid with two Mosquitoes in front and that so that they could stay back with us. Wheels down and flaps down so we kept up with them. The idea was that if it was cloudy we would bomb when they bombed. Everybody behind us was to bomb.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But the signal was supposed to be if our bomb aimer who was a crack bomb aimer who won bombing competitions three times out of the five [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: If he thought we could bomb better the signal was going to be we would dive to port. Well, as circumstances happened on Oboe flights you flew in a curve at about eighteen thousand feet at so and so speed, a few of those before that but the Germans knew the speed and the height you were going to be flying at. Of course, the first shell hit the nose of the aircraft and the second one burst somewhere between the target and the tail turret disintegrated, the bulk of my turret giving me a smack in the face and the aircraft then started to fall out the sky apparently and we started to fall to port which was the signal for the crews behind to bomb [Wizernes] because it was cloudy you see —
[recording interrupted]
JG: he passed out due to lack of oxygen. We were shot to pieces. Intercom and everything. Compass and everything was shot to pieces and he pulled then out at nine thousand feet and we were seen as we came down lower because it was a bit hot and the bloke got into cloud and we broke cloud cover over Boulogne [pause] and unbeknown to us there was three German ack ack ships just off the coast and they gave us some plastering again. Then we cut across for —
Interviewer: When you say a plastering does that mean —
JG: Flak.
Interviewer: Flak. Did you —
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: After you’d actually been struck by them.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. We could hear the shrapnel hit us.
Interviewer: Just to stop you there a minute, Jim. I mean both of you must have been in this kind of situation where you could hear it crashing against you.
JG: Oh yeah. I could smell it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Smell the cordite.
Interviewer: Does that have, does that have a new particular effect on you then? Did that help to focus your mind a bit?
Other: That was a funny thing because you can’t see shrapnel but you can see the flashing and it looks as though sometimes you are running on it didn’t it?
JG: Yeah.
Other: Well, it never bothered me that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: As long as it was flashing there it wasn’t flashing here [laughs]
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: Well, it was frightening I suppose but it never really, it didn’t really bother me all that much.
Interviewer: Perhaps if you were in a situation and you were firing at something then you’ve got something to take your mind off things but if you’re not firing and you are sitting there and there is all of this activity going on does it not have any effect on you at all?
Other: Well, I suppose. Yes. I suppose it was one of the things you got used to. You had to be alert all the time.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: And that’s all, that’s the only thing about gunnery. That’s all you had to be. You had to be alert and keep your eyes open. All the rest of the time all the rest of the crew had something to do.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Which kept their minds occupied.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
Other: And with the gunnery it never. It didn’t.
Interviewer: No.
Other: Because either I don’t know what else there was a bit don’t think about it. The last time I went out —
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: was always frightened until we got right over the enemy coast and then it went.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: And coming back.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: I were alright. But I think, I think everybody suffered from fright.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: You know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: Anybody that says they wasn’t frightened I think they were a fool or something like that.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: A fool or a liar.
Other: Yeah. Yeah. A fool or a liar.
Interviewer: Sorry there, Jim. I cut you off.
JG: Oh, it’s alright.
Interviewer: With this flak, this flak —
JG: The flak ships had a go at us and we got away from them and right down on the sea and we were crossing the Channel and the navigator was at the front [unclear] pointed to the pilot and the white cliffs of Dover were coming up in the mist.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: He managed to pull the aircraft over the top of them and he tried to find Manston to go in and land but we’d got no radio, no nothing. Couldn’t find Manston in the fog so we proceeded up country and the navigator spotted the railway lines at Doncaster and we followed the railway lines near Hull and then cut across and landed.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And when we landed there they had obviously given the signal had we got wounded on board. Myself and that and we taxied around to the other side [unclear] A blood wagon followed us. The flight commander, squadron leader I forget which one he was was at the tail door trying to help me out. Of course, me being young and big headed I wouldn’t be helped. I refused to get in the back of the ambulance. I wanted to sit in the front with the WAAF driver and she nearly passed out when she saw me covered in blood. So the squadron leader and the flight engineer and somebody else rode in the back to the sick bay and then I went in and of course the doctor cleaned me up, patched me up as best they could and then they called a WAAF and let me see in the mirror what I looked like. Then fetched the WAAF ambulance driver in to see me and of course when she saw the whole of the back of my head oh not too bad.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: She smiled and I was alright then but that was that so —
Interviewer: Where were you hit?
JG: All across the face and up here.
Interviewer: Was that the Perspex had shattered.
JG: It was shrapnel because the Perspex had blown out and my oxygen mask was cut clear off my face. Completely blew off.
Interviewer: By a piece of shrapnel.
JG: By shrapnel.
Interviewer: So you were really quite —
JG: Oh yeah. Yeah. Cut off with shrapnel and a day or two later I went to the stores to get my oxygen mask changed. The WAAF said to me, ‘We never change oxygen masks. They never wear out.’ I said, ‘Mine has.’ She said, ‘Let me see it.’ Of course when she opened it up it was full of blood, dried blood and she nearly passed out. She very quickly threw, threw my old mask away in a bin and gave me a new one and didn’t ask any more questions.
Interviewer: Actually, how, when you’ve had a near squeak like that do you ever find yourself reflecting upon that on subsequent operations or do you think yeah the last time I was out here I was, I was a bit lucky. Does it not prey on your mind or do you just —
JG: No. It did afterward. A long time afterwards but not at the time.
Interviewer: No.
JG: Because we were so convinced that our crew was going to survive.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: We thought well others are going to get shot down but we weren’t.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: You know. It was just a feeling we had. Anyway, once I’d been debriefed, patched up and debriefed going up to the Mess with the flight engineer and the catering officer refused me a meal. She said, ‘You conned us last night for a flying meal and you hadn’t been flying. Tonight you’ve been fighting and you’re not having a meal tonight.’ With that —
Interviewer: Apparatus. Yeah.
JG: I’ve forgotten which squadron leader it was came across and said, ‘Look —’
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: He has. He’s just been wounded.’
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: So I got my flying meal at that time. That was that. Some of the others [pause] [unclear] of course.
Interviewer: So what about your first trip? Of course, you remember the first trip.
JG: My first trip. I didn’t know what to expect the first trip. [pause] My first trip was [unclear] somewhere. It was a fairly long, it was a five hour thirty minute trip so that was our first one.
Interviewer: You see what, when was that Jim?
JG: That was the 26th of April ’44.
Interviewer: Actually, I’ve just written to, do you know a fella called Meadows? F Meadows. He’s in, he’s in Australia now and one of his crewmen was a fella called Jackson. I’ve just written to, to Jackson. I think they were shot down at that place.
JG: [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: I can’t remember much about it at all.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But when I got in the aircraft to go I didn’t know what to expect.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Anyway, when we got back my nerves had calmed down and it was alright after that. Just took it as another trip.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. I suppose the first time it’s the unknowing isn’t it?
JG: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: And I know it’s nothing to do with 640 but after finishing a tour on 640 I had six months on the ground before I went back on ops again.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And the first one, the first op I did on the second tour was Bremen in broad daylight and I was absolutely dead scared because I’d been away from it for six months.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And I was —
Interviewer: Was that when you were with 8 Group?
JG: That was when I was with 8 Group and I think going on that one was worse than my first op which you know you’ve been away from it for six months and all of a sudden you was going to Bremen.
Interviewer: Yeah. And I suppose that the second time around you’ve also got an idea of what can come haven’t you?
JG: Right. Right.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: Yes, it can.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: That was the job we had. That day over to Bremen was a nasty one but that’s nothing to do with 640 so I won’t tell you it. [unclear] this is about [unclear] I’ll tell you about it and again cut it if you like. Stoney, our flight engineer was a bit of a loner. He didn’t always come with us. When he didn’t come we didn’t know where he went on camp. We just took it he went to the Sergeant’s Mess. Anyway, this particular night we were all going down to the Cattle Market. Not only our crew but others as well. There was no sign of Stoney being ready so I went through to the ablutions. He had all the excuses under the sun. He’d got to wash his hair, he’d got to clean his buttons, he’d got to do his shoes, he’d got to press his uniform. He’d got to make his bed and all sorts of things like that and he said, ‘I’ll see you later in Beverley.’ Well, sometimes he did come. Other times he didn’t so we never bothered. Off we went and when we came back from Beverley there was no sign of Stoney and his bed wasn’t made up. So we [unclear] anyway we had all been in bed a bit, in he came. All the lights on. Stoney when he had a few drinks always came in the last. He was trying to make up his bed and he was laughing away to himself. Jock the mid-upper was in the room, bed space smack opposite. He said, ‘Stoney, tell us the blooming joke. We’ll all know it and we’ll go and get some sleep.’ He said, 'It’s not a joke. It's true.’ He said, ‘I’ve just been to bed with the wrong WAAF.’
Interviewer: The wrong WAAF [laughs]
JG: Yeah. This is true. I’ve been to bed with the wrong WAAF. So Jock said, ‘How the hell did you do that?’ Well, he said, he didn’t say where he’d been with this WAAF earlier on but she had invited him back to her room and she’d given him a diagram how to get there without being seen. Which path to take, which way to turn the knob and all that sort of thing to not make a noise. And she said, ‘When you come into the room don’t say a word. Just get into bed because if we’re caught they’ll let people know I’ve invited you here and you know we’ll both be for the high jump. When you get into the room, get into the billet rather, our door will be open and there is the two of us a room.’ I’ve got an idea they were both corporals but to this day I don’t know who they were. So when Stoney did all that [unclear] did all that and got to their main quarters, got inside the front door, turned right and there was [pause] and then he forgot which was her bedspace. He couldn’t remember. There was one on the left and the one on the right. So he chose the one on the left. He got undressed and got into bed. Then he eventually got out of bed and a voice thanked him very much. He realised he’d never heard that voice before. So he came back to the billet and of course that was what he was laughing about. So, Jock said to him, ‘You stupid idiot. If you’d got caught we’d have all been sent to Sheffield.’ That was where if aircrew did anything wrong you were sent to Sheffield for six weeks doing drill and all that you know to knock you into shape. Anyway, Jock said to him, ‘That WAAF will give whatever in the morning.’ Anyway, at lunchtime we were dying to find out what had happened so [unclear] and didn’t see her. He didn’t see her that day but the next day she she dug him out from somewhere. She’d given him hell.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: She said, ‘How do you think I felt laying there in the middle of the night. I couldn’t say a thing because that would have let the cat out of the bag. Listening to her getting what I should have been getting.’ So she wouldn’t tell him. She wouldn’t tell him who the WAAF was he’d been in bed with.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: As far as I know he never did find out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But whether he ever back to this person I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: We never knew where he was meeting these WAAFs. Whether they met at the NAAFI or what I don’t know but anyway that was that. That was absolutely true.
Interviewer: Yeah [laughs]
JG: Absolutely true. I’ve been to bed with the wrong WAAF.
[recording paused]
Other: Johnny Johnson. Johnny Johnson’s crew.
JG: Yeah.
Other: He was a rum lad. He got his commission before he left. Yeah. We were out one night in this pub I don’t know where it was. A pair of antlers.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
Other: Johnny in his wisdom decided to jump on the swing arm and he missed. Broke a bone in his hand and he was off for about three weeks.
Interviewer: Actually would that a chargeable offence then if you got yourself wounded like that and therefore taken off.
JG: Yes.
Interviewer: Operations.
JG: It was a self-inflicted injury.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: It is a serious offence.
Other: I mean he didn’t mean to break his hand.
Interviewer: No. No.
Other: But he would have, he got shot down in the end over France and they got to bale the crew out. He kept it going and in the end he was flying on one engine going there and he got out or side of the lines in France and I think one or two more of the crew got through but he came back before we were shot down. He came back to see us about three weeks into the tour. He was full of it old Johnny. He was one of those [unclear] yeah.
Interviewer: Actually just, you’re just reminding me there Alf when you actually did have to bale out I mean you might well have baled out at a time when there was flak bouncing all over the place really. I mean if you were over a target area. Did that ever occur to you? I mean, did you have any kind of hangups about putting your ‘chute on and diving out?
Other: No. Never thought about it.
JG: No.
Other: No.
Interviewer: Was that, was that because of the, of the training and so on when you were told bale out then you baled out.
Other: Well, as I say it was somebody else going rather than us so I never thought about it. I never thought about it.
JG: I never looked forward to baling out even though we’d done all the training. I didn’t fancy it. I mean training. I mean training —
Other: I mean training —
JG: You can’t, you know when you come to it you know you would have had to jump. It was either that or die wasn’t it?
Other: I never thought about if you were shot down over the target area you are bound to get some stick aren’t you?
Interviewer: Yeah. It’s always struck me when folks were shot down over a target area where you might have night fighters.
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: And combats going on there. There might be flak flying all over the place.
JG: Yeah. Flak flying about.
Interviewer: And you’re sort of diving out into this maelstrom. But you didn’t have any reservations then. When it was time to go you just went.
Other: I don’t think we ever thought about it. Not to bale out.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: I mean the training. The training we were given was I mean you just jumped out the back door and rolled over.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: [unclear]
Interviewer: I don’t suppose they can train you for a bale out really can they? I mean it’s —
JG: Well, we did training at various places like at Manchester. The old Manchester [unclear] dinghy drill and things like that and messing about in the gym with ropes with a man telling you how to fall and roll you know when you were jumping. But some, some groups, some squadrons had to jump for training but not our lot.
Other: The thing with the dinghy drill. We did proper dinghy drill in the, in the baths.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Or in the dock at Bridlington. Actually, we were supposed to be able to swim. All aircrew. Well, our engineer we knew damned well couldn’t swim. But he was about six foot one. Well, we used to go to [unclear] York baths. In there it was only five foot.
Interviewer: I see [laughs]
Other: Five foot six [laughs].
Interviewer: So he used to stand on the bottom.
Other: It come up — [laughs]
A bit more difficult in the North Sea to release the button Alf isn’t it? Yeah.
Other: That was one thing I wouldn’t like.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: I didn’t like particularly flying over the sea.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
Other: I think I’ve always preferred overland.
Interviewer: Yes. Actually one of the, one of the early losses in 640 was a crew that came across from 158 and it must have been January February sometime. They were coming back from Berlin and a message was received that they were preparing to ditch but I mean when you look at the map reference I mean this was the middle of the North Sea. The middle of the North Sea at any time I think would be most inhospitable.
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: But in, in January February time it must have been absolutely dreadful.
Other: Yeah.
Interviewer: And they weren’t, they weren’t found.
Other: An instructor at Lossiemouth had gave us dinghy drill you know.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: If you ditched in a dinghy.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: [unclear] and we found this out. He didn’t tell us himself. He’d been in a dinghy once for eighty odd hours. [unclear] he was on Wellingtons at the time, a smaller crew [unclear] and that was in the winter.
Interviewer: He wasn’t from 102 was he?
Other: I don’t know. I don’t know what squadron he was with. He was instructing then. Screened. Used to call them screened.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: But it, I thought then that was a hell of a thing to survive that isn’t it?
Interviewer: Yeah. [unclear]
Other: I mean you can’t get out and walk can you?
Interviewer: No. No. Absolutely dreadful. Actually, I think I’m going to have to call a halt to this fellas because I’ve got to be home for 4 o’clock.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: On a capsule.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: This is a painting of Bambi.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: On the front of your aircraft.
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Just say that again Jim.
JG: We came back from one raid. I can’t remember which one and on the nose there was a hundred and twenty seven flak holes. Two of them through the feet of Bambi.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yes and Bambi —
Interviewer: When you say a hundred and twenty seven do you mean a hundred and twenty seven on one side or two hundred down —
JG: All on one side. You see [unclear]
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: They weren’t very big holes.
Interviewer: No.
JG: But it took a lot of patching up.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And when we came back from leading that daylight flight N-Nan was in hospital for about, took them about three weeks to repair her after that episode.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. And it because once she came out she had a new letter. She was L-Love and she went in as N-Nan and we didn’t like that and the pilot still used N when he called up for permission to take off and land.
Interviewer: So did that cause some difficulties?
JG: I bet it would have if we’d tried that.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But he would call up, ‘N-Nan permission to land.’ And they would say, ‘L-Love — ’ Such and such a runway. Yeah.
Interviewer: L-Nan position. Yes.
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: So —
Interviewer: This is, this is the one.
JG: Yeah. Oh, he’s got his hat off there.
Interviewer: Yes. He has his hat off. Yes.
JG: Yeah. I forget all these lad’s names. We just knew them by their nicknames as a rule.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: But I do remember that lot.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
JG: He was an armourer. You see we all had these, these Dutch badges.
Interviewer: Yes. I was going to ask you what these Dutch patches meant. I didn’t know they were Dutch but I noticed that a number of folks had these.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: I was thinking a special medal.
JG: All the aircrew wore them all the time.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: Something else we would fly with.
Interviewer: So what was that? God, you were a really superstitious lot [laughs]
JG: Oh yeah and of course —
Who provided those then? Weinberg presumably.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
JG: I got one. It’s a Dutch Army badge. Cap badge.
Interviewer: Right.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: It’s got, was it your pilot’s old regiment or something? Do you know.
JG: I think it must have been.
Interviewer: Well, I’ve never —
JG: He was wearing Dutch wings there you see.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. I remember that in the —
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Is this you?
JG: That’s me and that’s my brother.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah. He was in the marine commandos. And that’s when he was in the Gordon Highlanders.
Interviewer: Actually, you look a bit like Cyril Barton there. 578.
JG: Oh yeah. Oh I do. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah. Yeah [pause] That was Sandhurst when my brother was commissioned.
Interviewer: This isn’t him on the horse then?
JG: No. That’s just the —
Interviewer: The horse —
JG: [unclear]
Interviewer: The horse seems to be going the wrong way.
JG: That’s the adjutant. That’s a day of each parade. Commissioning Parade.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: The adjutant walked up in to the, in to the —
Interviewer: So what is he, what is he doing go back to, go back just a bit then. Yeah.
JG: I can’t remember the name of the target but we were instructed when we were approaching Holland to drop down to two thousand feet from fourteen thousand feet and —
Interviewer: Was this an anti-fighter device?
JG: Yeah. Anti-fighter. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And the pilot was saying, the bomb aimer was saying, ‘There’s light flak and searchlights ahead and it seems that everybody is catching it.’ I turned my turret on the beam and I could look forward. I could see all this flak curving over the wings. So when it came to our turn to go through it there was one blue searchlight and all the rest were white. The blue one to me was radar controlled and that was the master searchlight. Quite by chance he picked on us and got us coned and we were having the hell knocked out of us and I said, I called the pilot up and said, ‘Hold it steady.’ And I said, ‘I want to knock this searchlight out. Luckily I shot the searchlight out before all my guns packed up. When I shot him out every searchlight went out and every gun stopped firing. They were obviously all controlled by this one.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And we watched all the way back to the Dutch coast and there was never a searchlight or never a gun fired again in that particular area.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah. Yeah. My logbook would have the target now and it just shows if you were low enough.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: You could knock out a searchlight.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: I gave them a good spray.
Interviewer: But were you, were you travelling in the back?
JG: I was the rear gunner, yeah. I was nearly blinded looking down the beam of the searchlight.
Interviewer: Yeah. How did you find it? I mean in a sense you spent most of your service going through the air backwards didn’t you?
JG: Yeah. Yeah.
Interviewer: I mean your perception would be totally different for anybody else.
JG: I remembered which way was port and starboard.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this Andy Reynolds, this pal of mine who used to be with —
[recording interrupted]
Other: Certainly threw it forward.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Nearly blew you out. You got gun noise, wind.
Interviewer: Yes.
Other: Slipstream and everything so you had to be more or less phased back with them.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: And searching and more or less let the bomb aimer off or the flight engineer in front before —
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: But I always remember the mid-upper turret. When one is coming back up England [unclear] you know especially on a day like that which could go so fine and you could press a button free. Like free from [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: If you pressed that button and it just swing that around.
Interviewer: Oh right. [unclear] Jim. As a matter of fact you would have been around when they went around on the first, the first daylights then were you?
JG: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did that make any particular impression on you then?
JG: It did. It bloody frightened the living daylights out of me.
Interviewer: It did. Yeah.
JG: When we were briefed for it. Yeah. I’ll tell you now what it was.
Interviewer: It wasn’t [unclear]
JG: Was it? Hold on. I’ll tell you [pause] [unclear] bomb base just to confuse you.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: You don’t see that at night.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: It was frightening.
Interviewer: Yeah. What about the numbers as well because you’d be seeing flak bursting. There would be the numbers of aircraft in there.
JG: Yeah. That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: 30th of June was the first daylight.
Interviewer: Where was that too?
JG: Villers. Villers-Bocage.
Interviewer: Oh yeah.
JG: It was a fairly short one. It was only three hours fifty minutes.
Interviewer: Yeah. Was that where the Panzer Division was supposed to be?
JG: No. That was [pause] I’ll tell you where that was Ray.
Interviewer: [unclear]
JG: [unclear] was the Army training place when we went there to [pause] the idea was this blast bombs not to kill but to maim them. To put them in the hospital. Fill the hospitals so as the Germans had to take their wounded further back from the, from the —
Interviewer: Oh, I didn’t know that.
JG: Oh yeah. That was [pause] I’ve got [unclear] that was well the Army, the German Army training place. They had all sorts there and we got to know there was a, we got to know there was a dance and a cinema and what time it was going to come out. What time the functions were going to finish and we got there just in time to drop the bombs as they were all coming out. Not to kill but to fill the hospitals so as the, with the wounded so as that the Germans had to take their wounded further back from the front line because D-Day had taken place by then. Where the heck were we?
[pause]
Other: Marshalling yard and railways.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah. The transportation.
Other: The transportation. Yeah. Well, we did bomb a bridge once didn’t we? I can’t remember. There was a lot of bridges.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Other: I think there was two squadrons. [unclear] went to bomb this bridge. Followed the river.
JG: Oh yes. That one. We’d been on an oil refinery. [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: In the Ruhr.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Yeah. Yes. I got a bit mad with him. When we went into the briefing room and saw the target and it was going to be a daylight well I think, I think we all went LMF on the spot. We should have.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: The RAF hadn’t done any daylights in years.
Interviewer: Yeah.
Not to speak of and to go away to Germany in daylight.
Interviewer: Did they, did they have the Mustang accompanying you there then?
No. We were going to have to —
You talk about —
We had Spitfires. We saw them for about twenty minutes and we never saw them any more.
JG: Yeah. Perhaps they’d gone off to. Yeah. And they were supposed to be another lot meet us on the way back.
Interviewer: Yes.
JG: But we never saw them.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: But they could have been fighting a long way.
Interviewer: Oh Yes. Yeah.
JG: Over there somewhere. Yeah.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: No, always on our own. Never escorted by Mustangs.
Interviewer: I’m going to have to, I’m going to have to turn the, yeah because I’m thinking —
[recording paused]
JG: Several suggestions sent down.
Interviewer: For the crest.
JG: For the squadron crest.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And it was just provide sensible wording and the one that was chosen was the one we’ve got now and the wording I’ve put forward is what I thought was suitable and was accepted.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: That’s, “We strike by day and night.”
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: And if you look on the crest it’s got the black and the white.
Interviewer: That’s right.
JG: Daggers for the day and the night.
Interviewer: That’s right. Yes.
JG: Our crew sat down in a huddle and I put that forward and they all agreed and that was put forward.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: To the squadron commander. Why it was never adopted or put further forward as coat of arms I don’t know.
Interviewer: So when was the, when was the crest actually designed? I thought it was one of your Association members who designed the crest.
JG: Oh God, no.
Interviewer: Was it not?
Other: No. It was [unclear]
JG: It was designed, it had been designed about June, late June, early July 1944. Somebody on the squadron drew about six. Four, five or six.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: As examples what he thought a squadron crest should look like with the squadron obviously on either side with no wording underneath and it was, went to the pilot’s room first and then it went from one pilot to another and one crew to another. It eventually got to us and we thought this one was the best and that was the wording I chose or made up and it was eventually accepted.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Other people might claim credit for it but that was we did that in let’s say late June, early July ’44.
Interviewer: Yeah. And you didn’t go to the College of Arms did you?
JG: No.
Other: No.
JG: Why I don’t know.
Interviewer: Yeah. Was that because it was just in existence for sixteen months or —
JG: Oh no. No.
Other: It was a long time.
JG: It was a long time afterwards when I was stationed at Hemswell the next squadron leader coming around selling, selling squadron crests and I said, ‘Do you have 640 Squadron?’ He said, ‘No. I don’t.’ But he said, 'If you get an order for ten I’ll get it for you providing you have ten.’ Being a young bloke in the Officer’s Mess I couldn’t afford to buy ten at about six pound a piece.
Interviewer: Yeah.
JG: Which is what the aluminium ones were costing in those days. But then it made me wonder afterwards where would he have got a copy of it from because it wasn’t in existence. So he was really conning me. He would probably have took fifty or sixty quid off me and come up with nothing.
Interviewer: We’re talking about a commissioned officer of the crown.
JG: He was ex. I was still.
Interviewer: Right [laughs] Yeah.
JG: [unclear] found it in the other place didn’t they?
Interviewer: Oh right.
JG: [unclear] in the Officer’s Mess.
Interviewer: Alright. Well —