Interview with Jack Crawford
Title
Interview with Jack Crawford
Description
Jack Crawford volunteered for the RAF in Jamaica. He was posted to the UK in 1944 and began his precision instrument training before being finally posted to work on trainer aircraft. After the war he returned to Jamaica. He married and then returned to the UK where he again joined the RAF.
Note - the first few minutes of this interview were unrecoverable due to wind noise.
Note - the first few minutes of this interview were unrecoverable due to wind noise.
Creator
Date
2025-08-22
Spatial Coverage
Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:35:33 Audio Recording
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
ACrawfordJ02-230822
PCrawfordJ02-2301
Transcription
HH: So now we are settled nice and comfortably out of the wind.
Other: Yes.
HH: Which is probably also quieter for the recording.
Other: I was thinking —
HH: Because we were getting some good wind chimes —
Other: Yes.
HH: Before as well so —
Other: Yes. And you’re quietly spoken aren’t you dad so —
[pause]
HH: So you came, you came to the UK because you signed up for the RAF at the start of the Second World War.
JC: Yes. About the middle of it. Was the middle. I came across in ’44 and was sent to Filey.
HH: And you were sent. You did your training at Filey.
JC: Yes. Just basic sort of thing you know. The real training was at [pause] what was the name of the place now? Melksham.
HH: Melksham.
Other: Wiltshire.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
JC: And I did my basic training there. Instruments and then —
HH: And what was your training Jack? Was it, was it in engineering at that stage?
JC: What was the name of that base again? What you said.
HH: Melksham.
JC: Melksham. You did basic training there.
HH: Oh, you did basic training.
JC: Yeah. And then ⸺ where was another place? That was where we did specialised training. Instruments.
HH: Instruments. Okay.
JC: Yes. There was our crew just practiced our trade you see. Swanton Morley. Yeah. Swanton Morley then Melksham. Melksham first and then Swanton Morley.
Other: Melksham was —
Other: Yeah. We’ll get your, Melksham was before I think.
JC: Oh dear. I’m forgetting this.
Other: Swanton Morley.
JC: Yeah.
Other: And then St Athan.
HH: Oh, so Melksham.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Swanton Morley, St Athan. That was near Cardiff.
JC: Yeah. That’s right.
Other: Yeah. I think that’s right. I do it by the births. Where the children were born.
JC: All over the place. Yes. This place here. What’s the name of the place up there? Oh dear. A big station anyway.
HH: Was it Sealand?
JC: Sealand. I forgot the name of it. RAF Sealand. Yeah.
HH: RAF Sealand. And those were all places that you were stationed during the war.
JC: And after [unclear]
Other: Was —
JC: After the war was over.
Other: Swanton Morley was after the war wasn’t it because that was ’56.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Oh, Swanton Morley was after.
Other: Yeah.
HH: And so was Hemswell.
Other: Yes. Yeah.
JC: That’s right.
Other: I’m pretty sure because that’s when —
JC: [unclear] Cockpit instruments and things like that as well as —
HH: So it was all the instruments in the cockpit that you were responsible for. That was quite a responsible job as ground crew.
JC: Yes.
Other: It was.
JC: Yes. Yes. Work with fine work.
HH: Very fine work.
JC: Yes.
HH: Yeah.
JC: The engine bashers —
HH: Precision.
JC: Precision, and you needed —
HH: You need fine eyesight.
JC: Whereas the engine blokes, engines and airframes did the heavies. You don’t mix with them at all. They were all [unclear] like that you know but instruments, electrics mixed. We regarded ourselves as the elite.
HH: Absolutely the elite. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: It’s the first I’m hearing this.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JC: It was quite a, quite a fine art.
HH: And, and, and were you doing your artwork even during the war?
JC: Yeah.
HH: Or was that afterwards?
JC: Yeah. During.
HH: You were doing art.
JC: It was mostly cartoons of my friends.
HH: Cartoons. Oh, brilliant.
Other: You did do cartoons didn’t you?
JC: And I had to give it away because everybody likes to see their faces on paper.
HH: They all wanted cartoons drawn by you.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Wonderful.
JC: You’ll have to see one you know.
HH: Did you play sport at all during the war?
JC: Did I what?
HH: Did you play sport?
JC: I’m not a sportsman.
HH: You weren’t. You weren’t keen on sport.
JC: No.
HH: You were art more than sport.
JC: [unclear]
Other: You went to the [pause] which gallery did you visit in the war?
JC: Eh?
Other: Was it the Glasgow one? You said you went to visit an art gallery by yourself when others were doing —
JC: Yeah. An art gallery.
HH: Yeah. Unusual.
Other: It was a Scottish one.
HH: It would have been unusual to be a dedicated artist as well.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
JC: Not educated at all as an artist.
Other: Yeah, but you enjoyed it didn’t you?
JC: Yeah.
Other: You enjoyed looking at art.
HH: It was a form of enjoyment.
JC: It is. Yes.
HH: And relaxation I think.
Other: Yeah.
JC: I love it. Yeah.
HH: I’ve seen some of your art.
JC: Have you?
HH: Yes.
JC: Which one?
HH: The one of the roses around the front door.
JC: Yeah.
HH: And your embroidery.
JC: [unclear]
HH: It’s jolly good, Jack.
JC: You see that’s to keep me out of the mischief you know.
HH: It’s brilliant.
JC: All the kicking a ball about. This was [unclear]
Other: And whittling. You liked whittling didn’t you?
JC: Whittling. Yes.
HH: Amazing.
Other: Making things with your hands.
JC: You had to keep a sharp knife all the time you see.
Other: I’ve just got down here.
JC: Pardon?
Other: Sorry just leaping back that you’ve, you’ve written here that before you completed your technical training in Melksham —
JC: Yeah.
Other: You were posted. The war in Europe ended. Oh no you went to Hednesford.
JC: Pardon?
Other: RAF Hednesford this says.
JC: Hednesford.
Other: Hednesford is it?
JC: H E D N E S F O R D.
Other: Oh right. I hadn’t heard of that one.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Hednesford. Okay,
JC: It was an op station.
Other: Hednesford. Right.
HH: Yeah.
Other: That’s a new one on me so forget that.
HH: I don’t remember where it is in the country.
JC: I’ve got me reading glasses on here.
HH: Okay. Okay.
JC: [unclear] ordinary.
Other: Yeah.
HH: What did, how did you find life in the RAF during the Second World War?
JC: How did I find what?
HH: How did you find it? Was it tough?
Other: Life during the Second World War.
HH: Life during the Second World War.
JC: I enjoyed it.
HH: You enjoyed it.
JC: Yes. It wasn’t [pause] very physical at all and nothing matched for it. Instruments was sit down on a bench, that sort of thing you see. Whereas if you were engines you’d go in with heavies.
HH: Yeah.
JC: And then it’s bomb bomb bomb. Damage. Engine assessors the group [unclear] and we did it. It’s that sort of thing. We used to consider ourselves the elite.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean it was very —
JC: Yeah.
HH: Your skills depended on whether an aircraft would fly and come back or not. Yeah. Yeah.
JC: They wouldn’t get off the ground most of the time. If he had set a speed —
HH: Yeah.
JC: So you could get lift you see. The end of the runway. Turn around about again and he has work on them.
HH: Because there wasn’t enough lift. Yeah. Yeah.
JC: There was instruments monitoring the wind direction and engine speed. [unclear] Everything about the aircraft. The thing in front of you gives you an indication of whatever was happening. Engine speed and things like that you know.
Other: I remember once you —
JC: Eh?
Other: I found something amongst all your little bits and pieces. All your little tools and stuff.
JC: Yeah.
Other: And I said, ‘Dad, do you need this anymore? This doesn’t look like it’s —' because we were trying to get rid of some of the stuff you had and you went, ‘You can’t get rid of that. That measures the external temperature of an aeroplane.’
JC: That’s true.
Other: [laughs] useful.
HH: What kind of, what kinds of aircraft did you work on? Can you remember?
JC: Basic things. What do you call it? Prentices. When we used to train the apprentices with. Very basic.
Other: But what aircraft did you work on?
HH: Can you remember the names of the aircraft you worked on?
JC: No.
HH: Were they the heavy bombers?
JC: No. Mostly trainers.
HH: The trainers?
JC: Yeah.
HH: Oh, okay. So that’s, yeah so you worked on all the training aircraft.
JC: Yes. You specialised. When you worked on trainers you were going to bombers who could fight anywhere. Reconnaissance planes. You specialised.
HH: So you worked on trainers which meant that you were working on the aircraft that everybody learned to fly on before they were sent to Bomber Command or Fighter Command or wherever.
JC: Yeah. That’s right.
HH: Yeah. So you trained everybody.
JC: And then I went on to instruments. What they called fitters. We specialised then you see. [unclear] composite and things like that.
HH: Oh gosh that was quite a big job. Yeah.
JC: Very interesting for to have them in my fingers.
HH: Yeah.
JC: You see, if you were what they called a heavy — out because you did more harm than good so —
HH: Yeah. It developed. You had to become very specialised.
JC: I have delicate fingers you know.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
JC: Work on watches and things. Good training that. Clocks and watches.
Other: Yeah. He used to do lots. Yeah.
HH: And did you make, did you make good friends during the war? Did you have any friendships?
JC: Sort of. I know another very friendly person. Old Frank Blackburn here he was —
HH: Frank Black.
Other: Blackburn.
HH: Frank Blackburn.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Was a friend of yours. That’s a lovely picture.
Other: It is isn’t it.
JC: He was —
HH: It’s a picture of you and Frank Blackburn.
JC: Somewhere up in —
Other: Cumbria wasn’t it?
JC: The Lake District. Not the Lake District. Up that way. North East. North West beg your pardon.
Other: Did you say it was Cumbria once?
JC: Yes. Somewhere like that. Yes.
Other: Yeah.
JC: The idea this time when you spoke up.
HH: In this picture it is wonderful. The uniforms are utterly identical. The caps are at the same angle on the heads.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Everything.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Because didn’t you stop with his parents for a weekend.
JC: Stayed with who?
Other: You went to stay with his folks for a weekend.
JC: Cumbria.
Other: In Cumbria.
JC: In Cumbria.
Other: It was Cumbria then. Yeah. Yeah.
JC: There we are. It was —
Other: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
JC: Because as long as you put a uniform it makes you stay like that you see.
HH: Yeah. I think that that was the thing.
JC: Otherwise you were, yes. [unclear] made us feel as if we were something else you know.
HH: Yeah.
JC: When we were in uniform.
HH: Your uniform meant a lot.
JC: It did.
HH: Yeah.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: I think you said once that you felt that people appreciated the fact that you were, you were volunteers.
JC: Yeah.
Other: That you weren’t conscripted.
JC: That’s true. Yeah.
Other: That you’d come over to fight. To help out rather than —
HH: Yeah. Yeah. As a volunteer.
JC: Most of the chaps we met were all what do you call them? [pause] What is the word you use?
Other: Describe.
JC: Hmmn?
Other: Describe what you are trying to say.
JC: They were called up. They were of age. It didn’t matter who you were if you were of age. As long as you passed the age limit and you were healthy, bam, you’re in.
Other: You could.
HH: Yeah. So that was when you, when you presented yourself as a volunteer.
JC: All people from Jamaica.
HH: Yeah.
JC: People from Jamaica and it was as Allies. We were all volunteers. Most of them bloody rubbish but of course square bashing —
HH: Yeah.
JC: Boom boom boom boom boom.
HH: That was Filey for you wasn’t it?
JC: Yeah, well —
HH: You did square bashing at Filey.
JC: That was basic you see. There was people who could use their fingers were sent to Melksham and Compton Bassett.
HH: Oh, Compton Bassett as well.
JC: Yeah.
HH: That was all precision engineering instrument training.
JC: Radios. It was surprising to know it was a sort of elite. If you were an engine basher or air frames you were sort of grease bugger or something like that you know. When you were in the trainers, instruments, radio, radar you were the elite you see.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
JC: You don’t fool about with those.
HH: There was a real hierarchy.
JC: There was. Yeah.
HH: Yes. Yeah. And when you, when you served at the various stations —
JC: Yeah.
HH: Where you were posted were there other Jamaicans with you or other people from the West Indies?
JC: No idea but different trades. So you didn’t mix at all. If you are not instruments or radio or whatever or something like that the rest is just rubbish supports. Supporting people. Yes. It was. It was very snobbish. I was sort of disappointed what the airforce was like you know but there was just certain trades you were okay. You could mix with all kind of people. If you weren’t [unclear] you see.
Other: What about Uncle Wade?
JC: Who?
Other: Uncle Wade.
JC: Oh, you know.
Other: He used to —
JC: He was what we called shiny bottom. He was in offices eh and as —
HH: Oh, he got a shiny bottom from the sitting too much.
Other: You worked him out.
HH: Okay.
JC: He did training as a lawyer you see.
HH: Yeah.
JC: So he was he fitted right in there.
HH: Was he, was he a friend or a relative?
JC: Yes, friend.
Other: Well, he was a bit more than a friend wasn’t he because he —
JC: Well, yes he was, we couldn’t find any really —
Other: Uncle George’s —
JC: Yeah.
Other: In law —
JC: His —
Other: Was my godmother so —
JC: His home was at [unclear] road in London.
HH: In London.
JC: And I used to go there when I had leave you know. But I wonder whatever happened to them.
Other: You used to stay with Uncle Wade and Aunt Ivy when you first came to the country didn’t you?
JC: Yes. Yeah. When I came here from Jamaica.
Other: Yeah. We are actually related to them.
HH: Yeah. And at the end of the war did you return to Jamaica, Jack?
JC: Yeah. They said everybody out.
HH: So, you didn’t felt, you didn’t feel you had a choice.
JC: Well, I didn’t have a choice.
HH: You didn’t have a choice.
JC: They said out and we went.
HH: And how did that make you feel?
JC: Well, I had a job to go back to anyway.
HH: You had a job to go back to.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Oh, so that was quite, quite an attraction.
JC: It didn’t matter one way or the other to me. Except that we were in a ship.
Other: Were you married then?
JC: Eh?
Other: Were you married then?
JC: Who?
Other: You.
JC: Jamaica.
Other: No. No. When? When, and I don’t know why I don’t know this what year were you married?
JC: I don’t —
Other: Well, what I was thinking was did you have mum to go back to in the war?
JC: No.
HH: At the end of the war did you go back to get married?
JC: No. But automatically demobbed. Everybody. You. You. You. Out.
HH: Yeah.
Other: I was thinking about 1948 actually. Yeah.
HH: So did you, did you get married in Jamaica?
JC: Yes.
HH: Okay. So you were married in Jamaica.
Other: Yeah.
HH: After the war.
JC: Yes.
HH: Okay.
Other: I think it might have been ’48.
HH: And then, and then what made you want to come back here again? To the UK.
JC: I don’t really know. I was fed up of pushing a pen all the time. That’s one of the reasons.
HH: So you were fed up with your job then.
JC: Yes. Pen pusher.
HH: Shiny bottom.
Other: A shiny bottom [laughs] A shiny bottom in Jamaica.
HH: Yeah.
JC: When the [unclear] appeared you’d got people —
Other: Was that at the rum store?
JC: Yes.
Other: Yeah.
JC: And the trouble is the rum stores is very cliquish. If you’re what do you call them [pause] What do you call them?
Other: Describe again.
JC: No. They measured the barrels of rum and if it was a bit over —
HH: Okay.
JC: That sold they measured it again. Make sure that you haven’t been just [unclear] they weren’t very great drinkers at all.
Other: No.
JC: After work you know but while you were there ah huh. You keep your eyes on the desk.
HH: Did you drink rum?
JC: Very small quantities.
Other: He’s never been much of a drinker.
HH: No.
JC: They didn’t have any really heavy drinkers at this time.
HH: No.
JC: No.
HH: No.
Other: Except for Rum Cat.
JC: They knew what rum can do and it’s not very pleasant.
HH: Yeah.
JC: These people were all drunk professional, what we called professional drinkers.
HH: Yeah.
JC: They were always —
HH: Drinking. Yeah.
JC: Didn’t give any responsibilities at all.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. So, so did you have a job to come to in the UK when you came back from Jamaica at the end? After the war.
JC: I joined the RAF again.
HH: So you joined the RAF.
JC: Again.
HH: And, and were they pleased to have you back?
JC: I don’t know. I never asked them.
HH: I’m sure they were. I’m sure they were.
JC: I think they were because they were very short of manpower after the war.
HH: Yeah. There was a shortage.
JC: Anybody could join up provided you could use your fingers.
HH: Yeah. So —
JC: But [pause] eh?
Other: You know when you worked on the [pause] for de Havilland and the Comet.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Was that part of the RAF or was the RAF after that?
JC: No. No. That was a civilian job.
Other: And that was just before. That was —
JC: When the Comets started crashing they —
Other: That job went —
JC: They couldn’t [unclear] us anymore.
HH: Ok, so you worked for de Havilland for a little while.
JC: Yes.
HH: And then went into the RAF.
Other: The RAF.
JC: Yeah.
HH: And did you already have a family by then Jack?
JC: Yeah. Not you.
Other: No.
JC: You came later on.
Other: Much later. Yeah.
JC: You were born where?
Other: Me?
JC: Yeah.
Other: I was born on the Wirral.
JC: Yeah.
Other: When you and mum were forty-five and so —
JC: [unclear]
Other: Jackie and Robert.
JC: All kinds of things happened to me then. Jackie and Robert. They were born in Jamaica.
Other: Yeah.
JC: But they came to England completely on the —
Other: Yeah.
HH: So Jackie and Robert were born in Jamaica.
Other: That’s right.
HH: And then who was the first born here?
Other: That was —
JC: Yes. I think so. You were first born here.
Other: Heather. It was Heather in Norfolk wasn’t it? Heather was born in Norfolk.
JC: Yeah. That’s right. Heather.
Other: Heather was born in Norfolk.
JC: Yeah.
Other: In a little village called Billingford.
JC: Number three.
HH: She was number three.
Other: Yeah.
JC: Yeah.
HH: And you were, you were serving in the RAF in Norfolk.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Yes, Swanton Morley.
JC: Swanton Morley.
HH: Oh, that was Swanton Morley. Okay.
Other: Because we came —
HH: Yeah.
Other: I asked mum about it once.
JC: Been all over the place.
Other: And she said it was because dad had to fetch water from a well and she said it was a bit of a shock because at least in Jamaica you had an indoor toilet and hot and cold running water.
HH: Yeah. So this is coming to the third world really.
Other: Yeah. This is, this is Norfolk in 1956.
JC: It was an eye opener.
Other: Yeah.
JC: When we came and saw this. In Jamaica it’s a nice place over here.
HH: Now, gosh —
JC: I’m talking about the rough camps now you see.
HH: Yeah. No, they were rough I think at that stage.
Other: Yeah.
HH: And, and so after, so when you rejoined the RAF were you, were you still working at the same trade?
JC: No.
HH: Instruments.
JC: Instruments.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Yeah. That’s the same trade isn’t it?
JC: The same thing.
Other: Yeah. He always —
JC: Very sensitive fingers.
HH: Yeah. I can imagine. Fine fine work. Yeah.
JC: Things like that you know.
HH: Yeah.
Other: So they lived in the village and Heather was born in the village.
HH: Okay. So they —
Other: Not on camp.
HH: So they, so they weren’t on the camp.
Other: No. No. And then.
JC: Was it Billingford?
Other: Billingford. That’s right.
JC: And then where after that?
Other: Then after that would have been, was it St Athan?
JC: Yeah.
HH: In Wales?
JC: Wales. Yes, up there.
HH: And who was born in Wales?
Other: I don’t think anyone was —
JC: I can’t remember now.
Other: Born there were they? Because then it was then you went to Lincolnshire such a RAF life.
HH: So that was Hemswell.
Other: Yeah.
JC: Hemswell.
HH: And who was born in Lincolnshire?
Other: Susan.
HH: Susan.
Other: Who is in Inverness now.
HH: Who is the one in Inverness now.
Other: Yeah.
JC: She is with the RAF still.
Other: No, dad. No. No. No. Long since left. Yeah.
HH: And then where did you move to after Hemswell?
Other: You see I’m not sure. I think there may have been ones in between.
HH: You see, that’s the thing with the RAF is that they move you —
Other: Yeah.
HH: All the time don’t they? All around the place. Yeah.
Other: Heather would have been —
JC: Swanton Morley.
Other: The better to ask. I think there might have been something between Hemswell and Sealand.
JC: Sealand. Yeah.
HH: And then who was born there?
Other: So, well I was born on the Wirral.
HH: Okay.
Other: Which was near Sealand.
HH: Near Sealand. Yeah.
Other: And then dad went to Gan for a year. Was posted to Gan.
JC: A lovely place. An island in the Pacific.
HH: Was it?
JC: Lovely. I’d go back there now.
Other: That’s right, because we went to Kent.
HH: And you stayed here presumably. You didn’t go.
Other: No. No.
JC: No. No. It was —
Other: So it was Sealand. Kent when dad went to Gan and then back to Sealand.
JC: Oh yeah.
Other: And then Sealand for a long time.
HH: Okay. So that was —
Other: Many years.
HH: Much more settled then.
Other: Completely. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Because when I was little my eldest siblings had already flown the nest.
JC: The nearest —
Other: Robert graduated when I was three so —
HH: So there’s a big big —
Other: Yeah.
HH: Difference between the ages.
Other: Gaps, yeah.
HH: Big gaps.
Other: There’s nearly twenty years between me and Jackie.
HH: Okay.
Other: So yeah.
JC: The RAF still had slightly preferential treatment when you came to school like that because —
[traffic beeping and noise just outside]
HH: It doesn’t matter about the noise. I just [pause] It sounds like somebody is trying to get through.
Other: It’s terribly exciting living [laughs] —
HH: Opposite a police station.
JC: Saw the green jackets you know. Bullet proof jackets.
Other: Oh, I hope they’re not needing to wear those. Yeah.
HH: All the cars are passing by as if nothing is amiss so —
JC: No.
Other: No. I think it’s, I think when they all dive out in their cars.
JC: [unclear] parked down there you see. Down that road.
HH: Yeah.
Other: I can’t remember what you just asked.
JC: It’s when they are wearing the bullet proof vests and things like that. Blue. I think they all wear that now.
HH: Yeah.
JC: The police can’t [unclear] you see three or four hours they were in there.
HH: Okay. Yeah.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Exciting living opposite a police station.
JC: It’s, it’s alright you know. They don’t bother us. We don’t bother them so —
HH: Nobody bothers anybody.
JC: No.
HH: Yeah.
JC: At the end of the day this was completely —
HH: So how did, how did your whole family more or less gravitate towards living in Bradford?
JC: Well, we were in —
Other: Chester.
JC: What’s the name of the place now?
Other: Chester.
JC: No. First. First place we came to in Lincolnshire.
Other: Hemswell.
JC: I can’t remember it now.
HH: Was it Hemswell?
JC: Hemswell came later on [unclear]
Other: Dad.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Dad, so Heather is asking about how we all came to be in Bradford.
JC: Come again.
Other: Heather was asking how the family came to be most of us —
HH: Because quite a lot of you —
Other: Are here in Bradford.
HH: All now live in Bradford.
Other: Yeah.
JC: Well, actually Sealand.
Other: That’s right.
JC: Not very far from here.
Other: For quite a long while wasn’t it?
JC: Yeah. For the first four or five years.
Other: And then Heather. Heather went to work in Manchester as a youth worker.
JC: Yeah, something like that. Yeah.
Other: Then she came to Bradford didn’t she? And then we’d all come and visit her here in Bradford and we really liked it and then I think that’s kind of why we kind of [pause] but dad you lived in Chester for a very very long time didn’t you?
JC: A long time. Yeah.
HH: In Chester.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Which is quite close to Sealand.
Other: To Sealand.
HH: Yes.
Other: Very close to Sealand. And you did get ill for a period. Pretty poorly for a while and we were a bit worried about how you were managing by yourself when you were in your late eighties.
HH: So that was, that was after, that was well into retirement.
Other: Yes.
HH: Yes. Okay.
Other: So that was sort of the catalyst for dad to come and live with her.
HH: To come here. Okay.
Other: Yeah. And then we kind of —
HH: So, there are, there are, there are quite a few of you with some outliers.
Other: With some outliers.
HH: As far north as Inverness.
Other: As far north as Inverness.
HH: And as far south as —
Other: As Hertfordshire.
HH: Hertfordshire.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. At Tring.
JC: We are all over the place you know.
Other: All over the place and just —
JC: We’re gypsies.
Other: Myself. Yeah.
HH: It’s remarkably all still in the UK.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Not, not emigrated somewhere else.
Other: No. No.
HH: Not gone back to Jamaica. Just all still in the UK.
Other: No. Yeah.
JC: I went back to Jamaica [unclear]
Other: You’ve been back.
JC: I’ve been back. Yeah.
HH: And you’ve all visited Jamaica.
Other: Yeah. We, well dad went back at quite a difficult time politically in Jamaica and —
JC: The place was so strange you know.
Other: It was strange wasn’t it and it was, it was during a very difficult period when there were a lot of political killings.
HH: Yeah.
Other: And you had lost I think at least one friend and I think mum had as well.
JC: She never went back. Yeah.
Other: And I think that was a kind of not going back after.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
JC: Even the way they spoke was different.
Other: Yeah.
HH: I mean there has been turbulence in so many places like that hasn’t there?
Other: Absolutely.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Absolutely. Yeah. But I think we have all been. Heather and Jackie went as teenagers. I’ve been back a few times. Susan went at one —
HH: And do you keep in touch with family there still?
Other: Yes. We’ve got family there. Mum’s family there. Dad’s family went to Canada.
HH: Okay.
Other: Two brothers who went to Canada who are now gone.
HH: Yeah.
Other: But we still have cousins in Canada.
HH: Okay.
Other: And we have a Darren Crawford as well.
JC: In —
Other: We’ve got —
JC: [unclear]
Other: Danny Crawford, Uncle Jimmy’s grandson has been touch with you over Zoom hasn’t he?
HH: Oh brilliant.
Other: And then Susan’s in touch with Denise and Arty in Jamaica.
JC: They are all over the place you know.
Other: They’re all over the place.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Quite a few in America.
HH: Most families are.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: Always. A few dotted in America as well.
HH: And did you, did you, were you active in the Royal Air Force Association after you, after your service?
JC: No.
Other: Yes you were.
JC: I used to go to meetings now and again but old time RAF people.
Other: Can I just, can I question that a bit. Maybe I’m getting this a bit wrong. When you used to stand outside Marks and Spencer’s rattling a can every Saturday.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Who were you collecting for?
JC: Not every Saturday.
Other: It was quite a few Saturdays.
JC: Yeah.
Other: We’re talking a few years ago.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Was that RAFA or SAFA?
JC: Yeah. RAFA.
Other: It was RAFA was it?
JC: Yeah.
Other: So you supported RAFA.
JC: Me?
HH: Yeah.
JC: Instruments.
HH: But in terms of fundraising and collections.
JC: Oh Yes. Walkabout with a [unclear]
HH: Yes.
Other: Every Saturday.
JC: [unclear]
HH: Yes.
JC: I didn’t like it at all.
HH: You didn’t like it.
JC: No.
HH: No. I don’t like doing that sort of thing either.
JC: I didn’t like it one little bit.
Other: But you did, you did it for a long time. I remember.
JC: A few years you know.
HH: Yeah. That’s brilliant.
Other: Tin rattling.
HH: Yeah.
Other: It wasn’t SAFA then.
JC: Pardon?
Other: It wasn’t the —
JC: Well —
Other: SAFA is all the Forces wasn’t it?
JC: I soon got out of it.
Other: I can’t remember.
JC: It’s a bit wearing. Standing about rattling a tin.
Other: Yeah. I remember. But that’s —
HH: But you did it. The important thing is that you did it.
JC: Yeah.
HH: And you supported them.
JC: I created quite a few.
Other: Dad’s social life was very tied into —
HH: And tell me, did you what did you think of going back to Filey? Did you enjoy that day in Filey?
JC: Sort of. Yeah. It brought back memories you know. But when we were in Filey you were very restricted. You couldn’t do this. You couldn’t do that blah blah blah but it wasn’t bad.
HH: But more recently when you went back as a celebrity.
JC: Me?
HH: Yes.
JC: No.
HH: No. No. Dad. Do you remember when we went when they unveiled the plaque to you RAF servicemen?
JC: Sort of yeah.
Other: Yeah. That was recently and we went for the day and it was —
JC: JC: A few years back was it?
JC: Yeah. No. No. No. It was this year wasn’t it?
HH: It was this year. The 1st , the 1st of April.
Other: And it was very cold.
HH: It was a horrible day. it was cold. It was raining.
Other: Yeah.
HH: But we all gathered in the street and, and you were one of the celebrities. There were —
Other: Six.
HH: Six celebrities.
Other: Let me find a picture.
HH: Veterans, for the unveiling of that plaque to all of those who had served in Filey. Do you remember?
JC: Yeah. I remember that now.
HH: Yeah. And Heather, Heather was with you.
JC: Was she?
HH: And Pam was there as well.
Other: And you were on the telly.
HH: And you were on the telly. Yeah. That’s right.
JC: I can’t worry about that.
Other: No we know you’re not bothered about it.
HH: It was so great that you were able to be there.
Other: It did happen because Heather was there as well dad.
HH: I was there too.
JC: You were there.
HH: I think I’ve got a photograph of you. I must, I must share that I think.
Other: There were so many of us there.
HH: Look at you. You took lots of photographs.
JC: It was quite enjoyable to meet old friends you know.
Other: This is [pause] that’s not a brilliant picture but look do you remember these.
JC: Oh yes indeed.
Other: Two servicemen with the flags.
JC: Yeah.
Other: So that was the day and then we had our picture taken.
JC: Is that me?
Other: That’s you. Yes. I don’t know who else that would be. That’s with Audrey in the middle there I think.
HH: There’s Heather.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Oh, there’s Audrey.
Other: Yes. In the middle. Yeah.
HH: And that’s Gifty Barrows.
Other: That’s Gifty. That’s it. Yeah.
HH: Oh, that’s a wonderful picture with Gifty.
Other: It’s a good picture isn’t it? So that was taken in —
HH: Oh fantastic.
Other: That was on Filey, taken in Filey.
HH: I bet you hadn’t been back to Filey for all those years.
JC: No. No.
Other: No. You said you told me you used to call it Filley before you knew how it was pronounced.
HH: That’s wonderful.
Other: The Jamaicans used to call it Filley.
HH: Filley. Oh really.
Other: Before they knew what —
HH: They called it Filley.
Other: What the right name was.
HH: I love that.
Other: The pronunciation.
HH: That’s a wonderful story.
Other: There you go that’s —
HH: That’s lovely.
Other: That’s the gentlemen. So that was the day look.
JC: Yeah.
Other: No. That’s Heather. Not me.
JC: Oh yeah. Of course yeah. This is me is it?
Other: Yeah. I don’t know what you’ve done with it now.
HH: Thank you Jack for —
JC: You are RAF are you?
HH: No.
JC: Oh yeah.
HH: No. No. No. They wouldn’t have accepted me. I was always too shortsighted Jack.
Other: Heather is a professor.
HH: So thank you so much for letting us —
Other: Talking to us. Sorry Heather.
HH: No, no, no, That’s fine.
Other: Yeah.
Other: Yes.
HH: Which is probably also quieter for the recording.
Other: I was thinking —
HH: Because we were getting some good wind chimes —
Other: Yes.
HH: Before as well so —
Other: Yes. And you’re quietly spoken aren’t you dad so —
[pause]
HH: So you came, you came to the UK because you signed up for the RAF at the start of the Second World War.
JC: Yes. About the middle of it. Was the middle. I came across in ’44 and was sent to Filey.
HH: And you were sent. You did your training at Filey.
JC: Yes. Just basic sort of thing you know. The real training was at [pause] what was the name of the place now? Melksham.
HH: Melksham.
Other: Wiltshire.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
JC: And I did my basic training there. Instruments and then —
HH: And what was your training Jack? Was it, was it in engineering at that stage?
JC: What was the name of that base again? What you said.
HH: Melksham.
JC: Melksham. You did basic training there.
HH: Oh, you did basic training.
JC: Yeah. And then ⸺ where was another place? That was where we did specialised training. Instruments.
HH: Instruments. Okay.
JC: Yes. There was our crew just practiced our trade you see. Swanton Morley. Yeah. Swanton Morley then Melksham. Melksham first and then Swanton Morley.
Other: Melksham was —
Other: Yeah. We’ll get your, Melksham was before I think.
JC: Oh dear. I’m forgetting this.
Other: Swanton Morley.
JC: Yeah.
Other: And then St Athan.
HH: Oh, so Melksham.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Swanton Morley, St Athan. That was near Cardiff.
JC: Yeah. That’s right.
Other: Yeah. I think that’s right. I do it by the births. Where the children were born.
JC: All over the place. Yes. This place here. What’s the name of the place up there? Oh dear. A big station anyway.
HH: Was it Sealand?
JC: Sealand. I forgot the name of it. RAF Sealand. Yeah.
HH: RAF Sealand. And those were all places that you were stationed during the war.
JC: And after [unclear]
Other: Was —
JC: After the war was over.
Other: Swanton Morley was after the war wasn’t it because that was ’56.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Oh, Swanton Morley was after.
Other: Yeah.
HH: And so was Hemswell.
Other: Yes. Yeah.
JC: That’s right.
Other: I’m pretty sure because that’s when —
JC: [unclear] Cockpit instruments and things like that as well as —
HH: So it was all the instruments in the cockpit that you were responsible for. That was quite a responsible job as ground crew.
JC: Yes.
Other: It was.
JC: Yes. Yes. Work with fine work.
HH: Very fine work.
JC: Yes.
HH: Yeah.
JC: The engine bashers —
HH: Precision.
JC: Precision, and you needed —
HH: You need fine eyesight.
JC: Whereas the engine blokes, engines and airframes did the heavies. You don’t mix with them at all. They were all [unclear] like that you know but instruments, electrics mixed. We regarded ourselves as the elite.
HH: Absolutely the elite. Yeah. Yeah.
Other: It’s the first I’m hearing this.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JC: It was quite a, quite a fine art.
HH: And, and, and were you doing your artwork even during the war?
JC: Yeah.
HH: Or was that afterwards?
JC: Yeah. During.
HH: You were doing art.
JC: It was mostly cartoons of my friends.
HH: Cartoons. Oh, brilliant.
Other: You did do cartoons didn’t you?
JC: And I had to give it away because everybody likes to see their faces on paper.
HH: They all wanted cartoons drawn by you.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Wonderful.
JC: You’ll have to see one you know.
HH: Did you play sport at all during the war?
JC: Did I what?
HH: Did you play sport?
JC: I’m not a sportsman.
HH: You weren’t. You weren’t keen on sport.
JC: No.
HH: You were art more than sport.
JC: [unclear]
Other: You went to the [pause] which gallery did you visit in the war?
JC: Eh?
Other: Was it the Glasgow one? You said you went to visit an art gallery by yourself when others were doing —
JC: Yeah. An art gallery.
HH: Yeah. Unusual.
Other: It was a Scottish one.
HH: It would have been unusual to be a dedicated artist as well.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
JC: Not educated at all as an artist.
Other: Yeah, but you enjoyed it didn’t you?
JC: Yeah.
Other: You enjoyed looking at art.
HH: It was a form of enjoyment.
JC: It is. Yes.
HH: And relaxation I think.
Other: Yeah.
JC: I love it. Yeah.
HH: I’ve seen some of your art.
JC: Have you?
HH: Yes.
JC: Which one?
HH: The one of the roses around the front door.
JC: Yeah.
HH: And your embroidery.
JC: [unclear]
HH: It’s jolly good, Jack.
JC: You see that’s to keep me out of the mischief you know.
HH: It’s brilliant.
JC: All the kicking a ball about. This was [unclear]
Other: And whittling. You liked whittling didn’t you?
JC: Whittling. Yes.
HH: Amazing.
Other: Making things with your hands.
JC: You had to keep a sharp knife all the time you see.
Other: I’ve just got down here.
JC: Pardon?
Other: Sorry just leaping back that you’ve, you’ve written here that before you completed your technical training in Melksham —
JC: Yeah.
Other: You were posted. The war in Europe ended. Oh no you went to Hednesford.
JC: Pardon?
Other: RAF Hednesford this says.
JC: Hednesford.
Other: Hednesford is it?
JC: H E D N E S F O R D.
Other: Oh right. I hadn’t heard of that one.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Hednesford. Okay,
JC: It was an op station.
Other: Hednesford. Right.
HH: Yeah.
Other: That’s a new one on me so forget that.
HH: I don’t remember where it is in the country.
JC: I’ve got me reading glasses on here.
HH: Okay. Okay.
JC: [unclear] ordinary.
Other: Yeah.
HH: What did, how did you find life in the RAF during the Second World War?
JC: How did I find what?
HH: How did you find it? Was it tough?
Other: Life during the Second World War.
HH: Life during the Second World War.
JC: I enjoyed it.
HH: You enjoyed it.
JC: Yes. It wasn’t [pause] very physical at all and nothing matched for it. Instruments was sit down on a bench, that sort of thing you see. Whereas if you were engines you’d go in with heavies.
HH: Yeah.
JC: And then it’s bomb bomb bomb. Damage. Engine assessors the group [unclear] and we did it. It’s that sort of thing. We used to consider ourselves the elite.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean it was very —
JC: Yeah.
HH: Your skills depended on whether an aircraft would fly and come back or not. Yeah. Yeah.
JC: They wouldn’t get off the ground most of the time. If he had set a speed —
HH: Yeah.
JC: So you could get lift you see. The end of the runway. Turn around about again and he has work on them.
HH: Because there wasn’t enough lift. Yeah. Yeah.
JC: There was instruments monitoring the wind direction and engine speed. [unclear] Everything about the aircraft. The thing in front of you gives you an indication of whatever was happening. Engine speed and things like that you know.
Other: I remember once you —
JC: Eh?
Other: I found something amongst all your little bits and pieces. All your little tools and stuff.
JC: Yeah.
Other: And I said, ‘Dad, do you need this anymore? This doesn’t look like it’s —' because we were trying to get rid of some of the stuff you had and you went, ‘You can’t get rid of that. That measures the external temperature of an aeroplane.’
JC: That’s true.
Other: [laughs] useful.
HH: What kind of, what kinds of aircraft did you work on? Can you remember?
JC: Basic things. What do you call it? Prentices. When we used to train the apprentices with. Very basic.
Other: But what aircraft did you work on?
HH: Can you remember the names of the aircraft you worked on?
JC: No.
HH: Were they the heavy bombers?
JC: No. Mostly trainers.
HH: The trainers?
JC: Yeah.
HH: Oh, okay. So that’s, yeah so you worked on all the training aircraft.
JC: Yes. You specialised. When you worked on trainers you were going to bombers who could fight anywhere. Reconnaissance planes. You specialised.
HH: So you worked on trainers which meant that you were working on the aircraft that everybody learned to fly on before they were sent to Bomber Command or Fighter Command or wherever.
JC: Yeah. That’s right.
HH: Yeah. So you trained everybody.
JC: And then I went on to instruments. What they called fitters. We specialised then you see. [unclear] composite and things like that.
HH: Oh gosh that was quite a big job. Yeah.
JC: Very interesting for to have them in my fingers.
HH: Yeah.
JC: You see, if you were what they called a heavy — out because you did more harm than good so —
HH: Yeah. It developed. You had to become very specialised.
JC: I have delicate fingers you know.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
JC: Work on watches and things. Good training that. Clocks and watches.
Other: Yeah. He used to do lots. Yeah.
HH: And did you make, did you make good friends during the war? Did you have any friendships?
JC: Sort of. I know another very friendly person. Old Frank Blackburn here he was —
HH: Frank Black.
Other: Blackburn.
HH: Frank Blackburn.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Was a friend of yours. That’s a lovely picture.
Other: It is isn’t it.
JC: He was —
HH: It’s a picture of you and Frank Blackburn.
JC: Somewhere up in —
Other: Cumbria wasn’t it?
JC: The Lake District. Not the Lake District. Up that way. North East. North West beg your pardon.
Other: Did you say it was Cumbria once?
JC: Yes. Somewhere like that. Yes.
Other: Yeah.
JC: The idea this time when you spoke up.
HH: In this picture it is wonderful. The uniforms are utterly identical. The caps are at the same angle on the heads.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Everything.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Because didn’t you stop with his parents for a weekend.
JC: Stayed with who?
Other: You went to stay with his folks for a weekend.
JC: Cumbria.
Other: In Cumbria.
JC: In Cumbria.
Other: It was Cumbria then. Yeah. Yeah.
JC: There we are. It was —
Other: Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
JC: Because as long as you put a uniform it makes you stay like that you see.
HH: Yeah. I think that that was the thing.
JC: Otherwise you were, yes. [unclear] made us feel as if we were something else you know.
HH: Yeah.
JC: When we were in uniform.
HH: Your uniform meant a lot.
JC: It did.
HH: Yeah.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: I think you said once that you felt that people appreciated the fact that you were, you were volunteers.
JC: Yeah.
Other: That you weren’t conscripted.
JC: That’s true. Yeah.
Other: That you’d come over to fight. To help out rather than —
HH: Yeah. Yeah. As a volunteer.
JC: Most of the chaps we met were all what do you call them? [pause] What is the word you use?
Other: Describe.
JC: Hmmn?
Other: Describe what you are trying to say.
JC: They were called up. They were of age. It didn’t matter who you were if you were of age. As long as you passed the age limit and you were healthy, bam, you’re in.
Other: You could.
HH: Yeah. So that was when you, when you presented yourself as a volunteer.
JC: All people from Jamaica.
HH: Yeah.
JC: People from Jamaica and it was as Allies. We were all volunteers. Most of them bloody rubbish but of course square bashing —
HH: Yeah.
JC: Boom boom boom boom boom.
HH: That was Filey for you wasn’t it?
JC: Yeah, well —
HH: You did square bashing at Filey.
JC: That was basic you see. There was people who could use their fingers were sent to Melksham and Compton Bassett.
HH: Oh, Compton Bassett as well.
JC: Yeah.
HH: That was all precision engineering instrument training.
JC: Radios. It was surprising to know it was a sort of elite. If you were an engine basher or air frames you were sort of grease bugger or something like that you know. When you were in the trainers, instruments, radio, radar you were the elite you see.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
JC: You don’t fool about with those.
HH: There was a real hierarchy.
JC: There was. Yeah.
HH: Yes. Yeah. And when you, when you served at the various stations —
JC: Yeah.
HH: Where you were posted were there other Jamaicans with you or other people from the West Indies?
JC: No idea but different trades. So you didn’t mix at all. If you are not instruments or radio or whatever or something like that the rest is just rubbish supports. Supporting people. Yes. It was. It was very snobbish. I was sort of disappointed what the airforce was like you know but there was just certain trades you were okay. You could mix with all kind of people. If you weren’t [unclear] you see.
Other: What about Uncle Wade?
JC: Who?
Other: Uncle Wade.
JC: Oh, you know.
Other: He used to —
JC: He was what we called shiny bottom. He was in offices eh and as —
HH: Oh, he got a shiny bottom from the sitting too much.
Other: You worked him out.
HH: Okay.
JC: He did training as a lawyer you see.
HH: Yeah.
JC: So he was he fitted right in there.
HH: Was he, was he a friend or a relative?
JC: Yes, friend.
Other: Well, he was a bit more than a friend wasn’t he because he —
JC: Well, yes he was, we couldn’t find any really —
Other: Uncle George’s —
JC: Yeah.
Other: In law —
JC: His —
Other: Was my godmother so —
JC: His home was at [unclear] road in London.
HH: In London.
JC: And I used to go there when I had leave you know. But I wonder whatever happened to them.
Other: You used to stay with Uncle Wade and Aunt Ivy when you first came to the country didn’t you?
JC: Yes. Yeah. When I came here from Jamaica.
Other: Yeah. We are actually related to them.
HH: Yeah. And at the end of the war did you return to Jamaica, Jack?
JC: Yeah. They said everybody out.
HH: So, you didn’t felt, you didn’t feel you had a choice.
JC: Well, I didn’t have a choice.
HH: You didn’t have a choice.
JC: They said out and we went.
HH: And how did that make you feel?
JC: Well, I had a job to go back to anyway.
HH: You had a job to go back to.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Oh, so that was quite, quite an attraction.
JC: It didn’t matter one way or the other to me. Except that we were in a ship.
Other: Were you married then?
JC: Eh?
Other: Were you married then?
JC: Who?
Other: You.
JC: Jamaica.
Other: No. No. When? When, and I don’t know why I don’t know this what year were you married?
JC: I don’t —
Other: Well, what I was thinking was did you have mum to go back to in the war?
JC: No.
HH: At the end of the war did you go back to get married?
JC: No. But automatically demobbed. Everybody. You. You. You. Out.
HH: Yeah.
Other: I was thinking about 1948 actually. Yeah.
HH: So did you, did you get married in Jamaica?
JC: Yes.
HH: Okay. So you were married in Jamaica.
Other: Yeah.
HH: After the war.
JC: Yes.
HH: Okay.
Other: I think it might have been ’48.
HH: And then, and then what made you want to come back here again? To the UK.
JC: I don’t really know. I was fed up of pushing a pen all the time. That’s one of the reasons.
HH: So you were fed up with your job then.
JC: Yes. Pen pusher.
HH: Shiny bottom.
Other: A shiny bottom [laughs] A shiny bottom in Jamaica.
HH: Yeah.
JC: When the [unclear] appeared you’d got people —
Other: Was that at the rum store?
JC: Yes.
Other: Yeah.
JC: And the trouble is the rum stores is very cliquish. If you’re what do you call them [pause] What do you call them?
Other: Describe again.
JC: No. They measured the barrels of rum and if it was a bit over —
HH: Okay.
JC: That sold they measured it again. Make sure that you haven’t been just [unclear] they weren’t very great drinkers at all.
Other: No.
JC: After work you know but while you were there ah huh. You keep your eyes on the desk.
HH: Did you drink rum?
JC: Very small quantities.
Other: He’s never been much of a drinker.
HH: No.
JC: They didn’t have any really heavy drinkers at this time.
HH: No.
JC: No.
HH: No.
Other: Except for Rum Cat.
JC: They knew what rum can do and it’s not very pleasant.
HH: Yeah.
JC: These people were all drunk professional, what we called professional drinkers.
HH: Yeah.
JC: They were always —
HH: Drinking. Yeah.
JC: Didn’t give any responsibilities at all.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. So, so did you have a job to come to in the UK when you came back from Jamaica at the end? After the war.
JC: I joined the RAF again.
HH: So you joined the RAF.
JC: Again.
HH: And, and were they pleased to have you back?
JC: I don’t know. I never asked them.
HH: I’m sure they were. I’m sure they were.
JC: I think they were because they were very short of manpower after the war.
HH: Yeah. There was a shortage.
JC: Anybody could join up provided you could use your fingers.
HH: Yeah. So —
JC: But [pause] eh?
Other: You know when you worked on the [pause] for de Havilland and the Comet.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Was that part of the RAF or was the RAF after that?
JC: No. No. That was a civilian job.
Other: And that was just before. That was —
JC: When the Comets started crashing they —
Other: That job went —
JC: They couldn’t [unclear] us anymore.
HH: Ok, so you worked for de Havilland for a little while.
JC: Yes.
HH: And then went into the RAF.
Other: The RAF.
JC: Yeah.
HH: And did you already have a family by then Jack?
JC: Yeah. Not you.
Other: No.
JC: You came later on.
Other: Much later. Yeah.
JC: You were born where?
Other: Me?
JC: Yeah.
Other: I was born on the Wirral.
JC: Yeah.
Other: When you and mum were forty-five and so —
JC: [unclear]
Other: Jackie and Robert.
JC: All kinds of things happened to me then. Jackie and Robert. They were born in Jamaica.
Other: Yeah.
JC: But they came to England completely on the —
Other: Yeah.
HH: So Jackie and Robert were born in Jamaica.
Other: That’s right.
HH: And then who was the first born here?
Other: That was —
JC: Yes. I think so. You were first born here.
Other: Heather. It was Heather in Norfolk wasn’t it? Heather was born in Norfolk.
JC: Yeah. That’s right. Heather.
Other: Heather was born in Norfolk.
JC: Yeah.
Other: In a little village called Billingford.
JC: Number three.
HH: She was number three.
Other: Yeah.
JC: Yeah.
HH: And you were, you were serving in the RAF in Norfolk.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Yes, Swanton Morley.
JC: Swanton Morley.
HH: Oh, that was Swanton Morley. Okay.
Other: Because we came —
HH: Yeah.
Other: I asked mum about it once.
JC: Been all over the place.
Other: And she said it was because dad had to fetch water from a well and she said it was a bit of a shock because at least in Jamaica you had an indoor toilet and hot and cold running water.
HH: Yeah. So this is coming to the third world really.
Other: Yeah. This is, this is Norfolk in 1956.
JC: It was an eye opener.
Other: Yeah.
JC: When we came and saw this. In Jamaica it’s a nice place over here.
HH: Now, gosh —
JC: I’m talking about the rough camps now you see.
HH: Yeah. No, they were rough I think at that stage.
Other: Yeah.
HH: And, and so after, so when you rejoined the RAF were you, were you still working at the same trade?
JC: No.
HH: Instruments.
JC: Instruments.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Yeah. That’s the same trade isn’t it?
JC: The same thing.
Other: Yeah. He always —
JC: Very sensitive fingers.
HH: Yeah. I can imagine. Fine fine work. Yeah.
JC: Things like that you know.
HH: Yeah.
Other: So they lived in the village and Heather was born in the village.
HH: Okay. So they —
Other: Not on camp.
HH: So they, so they weren’t on the camp.
Other: No. No. And then.
JC: Was it Billingford?
Other: Billingford. That’s right.
JC: And then where after that?
Other: Then after that would have been, was it St Athan?
JC: Yeah.
HH: In Wales?
JC: Wales. Yes, up there.
HH: And who was born in Wales?
Other: I don’t think anyone was —
JC: I can’t remember now.
Other: Born there were they? Because then it was then you went to Lincolnshire such a RAF life.
HH: So that was Hemswell.
Other: Yeah.
JC: Hemswell.
HH: And who was born in Lincolnshire?
Other: Susan.
HH: Susan.
Other: Who is in Inverness now.
HH: Who is the one in Inverness now.
Other: Yeah.
JC: She is with the RAF still.
Other: No, dad. No. No. No. Long since left. Yeah.
HH: And then where did you move to after Hemswell?
Other: You see I’m not sure. I think there may have been ones in between.
HH: You see, that’s the thing with the RAF is that they move you —
Other: Yeah.
HH: All the time don’t they? All around the place. Yeah.
Other: Heather would have been —
JC: Swanton Morley.
Other: The better to ask. I think there might have been something between Hemswell and Sealand.
JC: Sealand. Yeah.
HH: And then who was born there?
Other: So, well I was born on the Wirral.
HH: Okay.
Other: Which was near Sealand.
HH: Near Sealand. Yeah.
Other: And then dad went to Gan for a year. Was posted to Gan.
JC: A lovely place. An island in the Pacific.
HH: Was it?
JC: Lovely. I’d go back there now.
Other: That’s right, because we went to Kent.
HH: And you stayed here presumably. You didn’t go.
Other: No. No.
JC: No. No. It was —
Other: So it was Sealand. Kent when dad went to Gan and then back to Sealand.
JC: Oh yeah.
Other: And then Sealand for a long time.
HH: Okay. So that was —
Other: Many years.
HH: Much more settled then.
Other: Completely. Yeah.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Because when I was little my eldest siblings had already flown the nest.
JC: The nearest —
Other: Robert graduated when I was three so —
HH: So there’s a big big —
Other: Yeah.
HH: Difference between the ages.
Other: Gaps, yeah.
HH: Big gaps.
Other: There’s nearly twenty years between me and Jackie.
HH: Okay.
Other: So yeah.
JC: The RAF still had slightly preferential treatment when you came to school like that because —
[traffic beeping and noise just outside]
HH: It doesn’t matter about the noise. I just [pause] It sounds like somebody is trying to get through.
Other: It’s terribly exciting living [laughs] —
HH: Opposite a police station.
JC: Saw the green jackets you know. Bullet proof jackets.
Other: Oh, I hope they’re not needing to wear those. Yeah.
HH: All the cars are passing by as if nothing is amiss so —
JC: No.
Other: No. I think it’s, I think when they all dive out in their cars.
JC: [unclear] parked down there you see. Down that road.
HH: Yeah.
Other: I can’t remember what you just asked.
JC: It’s when they are wearing the bullet proof vests and things like that. Blue. I think they all wear that now.
HH: Yeah.
JC: The police can’t [unclear] you see three or four hours they were in there.
HH: Okay. Yeah.
JC: Yeah.
HH: Exciting living opposite a police station.
JC: It’s, it’s alright you know. They don’t bother us. We don’t bother them so —
HH: Nobody bothers anybody.
JC: No.
HH: Yeah.
JC: At the end of the day this was completely —
HH: So how did, how did your whole family more or less gravitate towards living in Bradford?
JC: Well, we were in —
Other: Chester.
JC: What’s the name of the place now?
Other: Chester.
JC: No. First. First place we came to in Lincolnshire.
Other: Hemswell.
JC: I can’t remember it now.
HH: Was it Hemswell?
JC: Hemswell came later on [unclear]
Other: Dad.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Dad, so Heather is asking about how we all came to be in Bradford.
JC: Come again.
Other: Heather was asking how the family came to be most of us —
HH: Because quite a lot of you —
Other: Are here in Bradford.
HH: All now live in Bradford.
Other: Yeah.
JC: Well, actually Sealand.
Other: That’s right.
JC: Not very far from here.
Other: For quite a long while wasn’t it?
JC: Yeah. For the first four or five years.
Other: And then Heather. Heather went to work in Manchester as a youth worker.
JC: Yeah, something like that. Yeah.
Other: Then she came to Bradford didn’t she? And then we’d all come and visit her here in Bradford and we really liked it and then I think that’s kind of why we kind of [pause] but dad you lived in Chester for a very very long time didn’t you?
JC: A long time. Yeah.
HH: In Chester.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Which is quite close to Sealand.
Other: To Sealand.
HH: Yes.
Other: Very close to Sealand. And you did get ill for a period. Pretty poorly for a while and we were a bit worried about how you were managing by yourself when you were in your late eighties.
HH: So that was, that was after, that was well into retirement.
Other: Yes.
HH: Yes. Okay.
Other: So that was sort of the catalyst for dad to come and live with her.
HH: To come here. Okay.
Other: Yeah. And then we kind of —
HH: So, there are, there are, there are quite a few of you with some outliers.
Other: With some outliers.
HH: As far north as Inverness.
Other: As far north as Inverness.
HH: And as far south as —
Other: As Hertfordshire.
HH: Hertfordshire.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. At Tring.
JC: We are all over the place you know.
Other: All over the place and just —
JC: We’re gypsies.
Other: Myself. Yeah.
HH: It’s remarkably all still in the UK.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Not, not emigrated somewhere else.
Other: No. No.
HH: Not gone back to Jamaica. Just all still in the UK.
Other: No. Yeah.
JC: I went back to Jamaica [unclear]
Other: You’ve been back.
JC: I’ve been back. Yeah.
HH: And you’ve all visited Jamaica.
Other: Yeah. We, well dad went back at quite a difficult time politically in Jamaica and —
JC: The place was so strange you know.
Other: It was strange wasn’t it and it was, it was during a very difficult period when there were a lot of political killings.
HH: Yeah.
Other: And you had lost I think at least one friend and I think mum had as well.
JC: She never went back. Yeah.
Other: And I think that was a kind of not going back after.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
JC: Even the way they spoke was different.
Other: Yeah.
HH: I mean there has been turbulence in so many places like that hasn’t there?
Other: Absolutely.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Absolutely. Yeah. But I think we have all been. Heather and Jackie went as teenagers. I’ve been back a few times. Susan went at one —
HH: And do you keep in touch with family there still?
Other: Yes. We’ve got family there. Mum’s family there. Dad’s family went to Canada.
HH: Okay.
Other: Two brothers who went to Canada who are now gone.
HH: Yeah.
Other: But we still have cousins in Canada.
HH: Okay.
Other: And we have a Darren Crawford as well.
JC: In —
Other: We’ve got —
JC: [unclear]
Other: Danny Crawford, Uncle Jimmy’s grandson has been touch with you over Zoom hasn’t he?
HH: Oh brilliant.
Other: And then Susan’s in touch with Denise and Arty in Jamaica.
JC: They are all over the place you know.
Other: They’re all over the place.
HH: Yeah.
Other: Quite a few in America.
HH: Most families are.
Other: Yeah. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
Other: Always. A few dotted in America as well.
HH: And did you, did you, were you active in the Royal Air Force Association after you, after your service?
JC: No.
Other: Yes you were.
JC: I used to go to meetings now and again but old time RAF people.
Other: Can I just, can I question that a bit. Maybe I’m getting this a bit wrong. When you used to stand outside Marks and Spencer’s rattling a can every Saturday.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Who were you collecting for?
JC: Not every Saturday.
Other: It was quite a few Saturdays.
JC: Yeah.
Other: We’re talking a few years ago.
JC: Yeah.
Other: Was that RAFA or SAFA?
JC: Yeah. RAFA.
Other: It was RAFA was it?
JC: Yeah.
Other: So you supported RAFA.
JC: Me?
HH: Yeah.
JC: Instruments.
HH: But in terms of fundraising and collections.
JC: Oh Yes. Walkabout with a [unclear]
HH: Yes.
Other: Every Saturday.
JC: [unclear]
HH: Yes.
JC: I didn’t like it at all.
HH: You didn’t like it.
JC: No.
HH: No. I don’t like doing that sort of thing either.
JC: I didn’t like it one little bit.
Other: But you did, you did it for a long time. I remember.
JC: A few years you know.
HH: Yeah. That’s brilliant.
Other: Tin rattling.
HH: Yeah.
Other: It wasn’t SAFA then.
JC: Pardon?
Other: It wasn’t the —
JC: Well —
Other: SAFA is all the Forces wasn’t it?
JC: I soon got out of it.
Other: I can’t remember.
JC: It’s a bit wearing. Standing about rattling a tin.
Other: Yeah. I remember. But that’s —
HH: But you did it. The important thing is that you did it.
JC: Yeah.
HH: And you supported them.
JC: I created quite a few.
Other: Dad’s social life was very tied into —
HH: And tell me, did you what did you think of going back to Filey? Did you enjoy that day in Filey?
JC: Sort of. Yeah. It brought back memories you know. But when we were in Filey you were very restricted. You couldn’t do this. You couldn’t do that blah blah blah but it wasn’t bad.
HH: But more recently when you went back as a celebrity.
JC: Me?
HH: Yes.
JC: No.
HH: No. No. Dad. Do you remember when we went when they unveiled the plaque to you RAF servicemen?
JC: Sort of yeah.
Other: Yeah. That was recently and we went for the day and it was —
JC: JC: A few years back was it?
JC: Yeah. No. No. No. It was this year wasn’t it?
HH: It was this year. The 1st , the 1st of April.
Other: And it was very cold.
HH: It was a horrible day. it was cold. It was raining.
Other: Yeah.
HH: But we all gathered in the street and, and you were one of the celebrities. There were —
Other: Six.
HH: Six celebrities.
Other: Let me find a picture.
HH: Veterans, for the unveiling of that plaque to all of those who had served in Filey. Do you remember?
JC: Yeah. I remember that now.
HH: Yeah. And Heather, Heather was with you.
JC: Was she?
HH: And Pam was there as well.
Other: And you were on the telly.
HH: And you were on the telly. Yeah. That’s right.
JC: I can’t worry about that.
Other: No we know you’re not bothered about it.
HH: It was so great that you were able to be there.
Other: It did happen because Heather was there as well dad.
HH: I was there too.
JC: You were there.
HH: I think I’ve got a photograph of you. I must, I must share that I think.
Other: There were so many of us there.
HH: Look at you. You took lots of photographs.
JC: It was quite enjoyable to meet old friends you know.
Other: This is [pause] that’s not a brilliant picture but look do you remember these.
JC: Oh yes indeed.
Other: Two servicemen with the flags.
JC: Yeah.
Other: So that was the day and then we had our picture taken.
JC: Is that me?
Other: That’s you. Yes. I don’t know who else that would be. That’s with Audrey in the middle there I think.
HH: There’s Heather.
Other: Yeah.
HH: Oh, there’s Audrey.
Other: Yes. In the middle. Yeah.
HH: And that’s Gifty Barrows.
Other: That’s Gifty. That’s it. Yeah.
HH: Oh, that’s a wonderful picture with Gifty.
Other: It’s a good picture isn’t it? So that was taken in —
HH: Oh fantastic.
Other: That was on Filey, taken in Filey.
HH: I bet you hadn’t been back to Filey for all those years.
JC: No. No.
Other: No. You said you told me you used to call it Filley before you knew how it was pronounced.
HH: That’s wonderful.
Other: The Jamaicans used to call it Filley.
HH: Filley. Oh really.
Other: Before they knew what —
HH: They called it Filley.
Other: What the right name was.
HH: I love that.
Other: The pronunciation.
HH: That’s a wonderful story.
Other: There you go that’s —
HH: That’s lovely.
Other: That’s the gentlemen. So that was the day look.
JC: Yeah.
Other: No. That’s Heather. Not me.
JC: Oh yeah. Of course yeah. This is me is it?
Other: Yeah. I don’t know what you’ve done with it now.
HH: Thank you Jack for —
JC: You are RAF are you?
HH: No.
JC: Oh yeah.
HH: No. No. No. They wouldn’t have accepted me. I was always too shortsighted Jack.
Other: Heather is a professor.
HH: So thank you so much for letting us —
Other: Talking to us. Sorry Heather.
HH: No, no, no, That’s fine.
Other: Yeah.
Collection
Citation
Heather Hughes, “Interview with Jack Crawford,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed December 7, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/56414.