Interview with Len Plumbe
Title
Interview with Len Plumbe
Description
interview of Len Plumbe by Hillary Smith for “Deddington Discussions” a local radio program, regarding Leonard Plumbe’s life.
Len Plumbe grew up in Deddington in Oxfordshire before the war. After finishing school he went to work in a local garage. In the war he then worked at Pressed Steel in Oxford making sea mines. He hated factory life so much he joined up. He volunteered for the RAF as a mechanic and after training was posted to Burma.
Len Plumbe grew up in Deddington in Oxfordshire before the war. After finishing school he went to work in a local garage. In the war he then worked at Pressed Steel in Oxford making sea mines. He hated factory life so much he joined up. He volunteered for the RAF as a mechanic and after training was posted to Burma.
Creator
Temporal Coverage
Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:50:56 audio recording
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
APlumbeL[Date]-01
Transcription
HS: Welcome to Deddington Discussions. I’m Hilary Smith and my guest today is someone who with the exception of his war service has lived in Clifton and Deddington all his life. That is Len Plumb. Len, thank you for agreeing to talk to us.
LP: That’s alright.
HS: Taking you back to, to the beginning, you were born on a midsummer night. Didn’t quite make midsummer. Is that right?
LP: Yeah. Midsummer Night’s Dream.
HS: Not Midsummer Night’s Dream.
LP: No. Not quite. Nearly.
HS: More like —
LP: Nightmare I was. Yeah.
HS: And that, and that was, at that time you lived in, your family lived in the Post Office cottages.
LP: Well, that’s right. Yeah.
HS: Do you remember those early days? Your father worked on the railways?
LP: Yeah.
HS: And do you remember what sort of things you did as a little kid there?
LP: Played football in the street [laughs]
HS: You didn’t get run over by tractors and things like that in those days.
LP: Oh no. The cars were very few and far between.
HS: Yes. Yes. Yes. Did you have brothers and sisters?
LP: One brother and one that I never knew. He died at three year old. I didn’t know him.
HS: I’m sorry, Len.
LP: But that was life then.
HS: Yes. Yes, indeed. Did you have friends locally that you could play with or was it —
LP: Oh yeah. Plenty. Plenty to play with. Yes.
HS: Yes, and did you go to school in Clifton or did you have to travel?
LP: Went to school in Clifton until we were seven I think and after that we had to walk to Deddington and back every day.
HS: That’s a long way for little legs.
LP: A mile and a half each way.
HS: Yes. Yes. Yeah. So at the school in in Clifton was it, did it have one teacher? Was it just one room?
LP: Yes. One lady. I can’t remember her name.
HS: No.
LP: At the moment.
HS: Do you remember what you did there? Was it just —
LP: I don’t know. Not a lot I don’t think [laughs]
HS: Yeah. I remember that childhood of lots of games and things. I remember you telling me that you looked, you enjoyed the day that you were given a fretsaw.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah. That kept me out of mischief.
HS: In what way? What did you do?
LP: Well, I used to love cutting things out you know with a fretsaw.
HS: Yeah.
LP: And making things. Yeah.
HS: Yes.
LP: It was lovely.
HS: Yes. Did I think you got hold of some tea chests.
LP: Oh, well tea used to come in big chests in those days.
HS: Right.
LP: And there used to be a local greengrocer in the village and when that chest were empty we could buy those for a few coppers and —
HS: Oh, I see.
LP: Cut them up and —
HS: Perfect.
LP: Yeah. Lovely.
HS: So you made, what sort of things did you make with that?
LP: Oh God. All sorts of things you know. Anything. Yeah. Really. Yeah.
HS: And did you stick them together?
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were all made. Yeah. We used to enjoy that. A bit of woodwork.
HS: Yes. So would you say you had a sort of talent for it? You enjoyed doing that?
LP: Anything with my hands.
HS: Right.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yeah. I expect your mother must have found you helpful if you were good with your hands as well.
LP: I don’t know. I suppose she did. She used to make use of it. Yeah.
HS: Yeah. What sort of jobs were you expected to do?
LP: Clean shoes [laughs]
HS: Yes. That horrible childhood job.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Laying out the newspaper. Putting the shoes. Yes. Talking of something more cheerful I remember you told me you had a bike and you loved —
LP: Oh yeah. That was in bits though more [laughs] —
HS: It was more in bits than actually while on the road.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And why was that, Len?
LP: I don’t know. It just interested I suppose.
HS: To take it apart.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And to see how it worked.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: So even as a young boy you were already interested in —
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: How things were worked.
LP: Always been interested in doing something with my hands. Yeah.
HS: With your hands. Yeah. Do you think you picked that up from your father who you said worked on the railways?
LP: I don’t know really. No doubt interested, you know. Interested in the railways so, you know.
HS: Yeah. But I suppose in those days we had to be practical in a way. We couldn’t go to a shop and buy something.
LP: Oh, good lord no. No.
HS: We had to make it ourselves didn’t we? Yeah.
LP: You couldn’t afford it anyhow, you know.
HS: No, that’s right. That’s true. Yes.
LP: No. Times were hard.
HS: Times were hard. So do you remember riding the bike anywhere at all or was it always in pieces.
LP: Oh yeah. Around the street you know.
HS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
LP: Like mad things.
HS: Yes [laughs] yes. What was it like being a young boy in those days? I think life was quite strict wasn’t it?
LP: Oh yeah. Oh yes. No meant no.
HS: No meant no. Yeah.
LP: Yeah. Or else a big hand —
HS: Yes.
LP: Caught you on the backside a bit sharp you know.
HS: Yes. So you always had to be on time.
LP: Oh yeah. Time was time you know.
HS: Yeah. How did you, living in Clifton how did you judge the time when you were out?
LP: How were the trains?
HS: Oh, tell me. The trains.
LP: Yeah.
HS: You could rely on the trains —
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: For time keeping.
LP: Used to see them come down the line and used to say 2:10 at Paddington. You know, from Paddington.
HS: Right.
LP: Banbury about twenty to three. Yeah.
HS: So your life was lived according to the train times.
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah. And they did run in, you know in good time.
HS: They did. Yeah. That was useful for you as kids.
LP: Yeah.
HS: To know what time to get home for lunch or something. For dinner. Did this discovering of how things worked was that something that always stayed with you as a kid?
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah. I’ve always been interested in you know.
HS: Yeah. And when you went to school did you have a chance to do it then?
LP: Funnily enough, gardening.
HS: Oh.
LP: Gardening and woodwork.
HS: Right. Those were part of the curriculum were they?
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Very practical things.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Which you need as a child.
LP: That. Getting those, yeah.
HS: Using your hands.
LP: A lot of practical jobs you know.
HS: Yeah. You, talking of practical jobs I mean you left school at around fourteen as people did then.
LP: Fourteen. Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Yeah. And then you went into a job which is building on that ability to but they called you a grease monkey. Is that —
LP: Yeah. That’s right.
HS: Where was this?
LP: In Deddington. Yeah. Down the main road.
HS: Right.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Is that the place that is on the corner of Hudson Street?
LP: That’s right. Yeah.
HS: Macy’s shop it is now.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: So what was that when you were there?
LP: It was an ironmongers and a garage.
HS: Oh, okay. Okay.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And so what was your job? You were fourteen.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And —
LP: Greased cars, cleaned them.
HS: Hence grease monkey. And why did they call you a monkey? Does that imply squeezing into places no one else could go and —
LP: I don’t know.
HS: Sort of being very agile.
LP: That was [laughs] grease monkey was the very bottom where you started.
HS: Okay. So that was how you learned the hard way.
LP: Yeah.
HS: You worked your way up from there.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yeah. I mean was it a responsible job did you find?
LP: Well, I suppose so yes because if you didn’t do it right —
HS: Yeah.
LP: You’d get the sack.
HS: Yeah. And did you ever get asked to do other things or was that just basically what you did?
LP: Well, no. You’d done all sorts of jobs you know. You were general dogsbody.
HS: Yeah.
LP: As they call it.
HS: Yeah. Did you feel you learned though because that was the first time in the adult world really.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Being —
LP: Oh yeah. It was very interesting in lots of things you know.
HS: Yes. Do you remember the customers? How were they? How did they treat people like you?
LP: They were alright. Yeah. Alright. Farmers didn’t like us very much because petrol went up.
HS: Yes.
LP: Ha’penny a gallon.
HS: I see, and they took it out on you.
LP: Well [laughs] they reckoned it was going to ruin the farmers going up a ha’penny a gallon.
HS: Yes. Yes. But today that job isn’t necessary any more is it? The grease. The greasing.
LP: Oh no. Not these days. No.
HS: Everything is —
LP: Everything is all pre-packed.
HS: And sealed and it’s just installed into the engine.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And that’s it.
LP: When it wears out it just falls to bits.
HS: Yes. Yes. But then reused no doubt.
LP: Yeah. Well —
HS: Yeah.
LP: Different world now.
HS: Exactly. Yes it is. So then I remember that coming up to the kind of the war breaking out that was a tough time. Jobs were scarce.
LP: Well, businesses just went out.
HS: Yes.
LP: There was nothing to do you see.
HS: No. No. That was tough but you said you worked for Pressed Steel.
LP: Pressed Steel in Oxford for a while. Yeah.
HS: What was that like?
LP: Making sea mines.
HS: Making, so they were already anticipating the war then.
LP: Oh, the war had started.
HS: Okay. Okay.
LP: That started you know and so —
HS: How big were these sea mines?
LP: Oh, about, well they’d be about that high. About four foot I suppose tall by about what would they be? About four foot long I suppose. About five or six foot around. Massive things.
HS: They are massive.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Goodness. Yes. How did you get on with that job?
LP: Couldn’t stand factory life. Twelve hour shifts. Night shifts.
HS: Twelve hours a night. That’s a killer isn’t it?
LP: Killed. Yeah. I couldn’t stick it.
HS: No. No. So, of course you didn’t have your own transport in those days.
LP: Oh no. Good Lord no.
HS: So you had to get to Oxford. Do a night shift.
LP: I used to bike it sometimes.
HS: Goodness.
LP: But it was killing me so I thought well —
HS: So what did you do instead?
LP: Joined up.
HS: You joined up. By then you joined the Air Force then.
LP: Yeah.
HS: You already knew that that was the Service that you wanted to go into.
LP: Yeah. I did really because you know planes were just sort of coming.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Technologically that was the new —
LP: Yeah.
HS: The new thing.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: So you were very attracted to the idea —
LP: Yeah.
HS: Of getting your hands on aircraft engines instead.
LP: Yeah. But good courses, you know. It was very good. Really enjoyed that.
HS: Yes. You must have learned a lot. But tell us. You had to, how did you actually join up? You had to go to South Wales.
LP: Oh you had to be sworn in.
HS: Okay.
LP: Yeah. And get the King’s Shilling.
HS: Oh. What was the King’s Shilling?
LP: A shilling.
HS: An actual shilling.
LP: An actual shilling.
HS: And that was in recognition of you swearing —
LP: Yeah. Yeah. That was the King’s Shilling that was. Yeah. But that was, they gave you that and because you had sworn in to be, serve your country.
HS: Yes.
LP: Yeah.
HS: So it was quite a serious ceremony.
LP: Oh yes. Oh definitely. Yeah.
HS: Yeah. And then did you get a choice of what to do or did you get straight onto a course?
LP: No. You had to square bash for —
HS: Oh.
LP: You got square bashing first and you —
HS: Oh right. Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: So that got you fit if you weren’t fit already.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HS: But then after that do you remember was there any choice or did you —
LP: You could have joined any of the Services really but I was quite happy there where I was.
HS: Yeah. Yes. And you started to specialise.
LP: Yeah. Well, I got into sleeve valve engines you know which were wonderful engines but very complicated but —
HS: Yes.
LP: I enjoyed that.
HS: So you learned a lot about engines.
LP: Oh yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Good courses you know.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And who were the people who taught you? Were they also —
LP: Civilians mostly.
HS: They were civilians.
LP: Yeah. Eight of them people we’d see was at Bristol you know.
HS: Oh yes.
LP: Bristol made the engines down there.
HS: Right.
LP: Had to go down there on a two week’s course so as you know other than the Air Force course.
HS: Right. So you saw them in situ.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HS: What it was.
LP: Oh yeah. You had to build engines and things you know. They made sure you —
HS: Yeah.
LP: You knew the way to do it.
HS: Were these factories vast things?
LP: Yeah. Pretty big. Yeah.
HS: So you —
LP: You had to, it got bombed many times down in Bristol.
HS: Right.
LP: That was an every night job nearly.
HS: It would have been a target.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Because they went on producing aeroplanes.
LP: Yeah. At Filton.
HS: Yes.
LP: Yeah. It was alright.
HS: What a contrast to Pressed Steel.
LP: Oh God, yeah. I couldn’t stand the factory. I couldn’t stand it.
HS: No.
LP: It was like [pause] I don’t know.
HS: But you could say that this was a factory as well. What was different about it when you were in the Air Force?
LP: Yeah. But it did. The noise at the Pressed Steel all night long. It was the machinery going.
HS: I see.
LP: All night long you know.
HS: I see, and this was not like that.
LP: No. A bit of noise but, you know it was not that sort of noise you know.
HS: Yeah. So what sort of jobs did you do? Do you remember what sort of training and jobs you had to do? Did you have to actually build an engine?
LP: Oh yeah. Oh yes. There was a lot to learn too. Oh yes. It was a good course you know.
HS: Yes. And the objective of you doing this Len was to then service these engines.
LP: Oh yeah. Oh God, yeah.
HS: So this is why you had to learn how they were made.
LP: Oh yeah. You’d got to know how they work and everything because I mean you’ve got nobody else when you’re out on an airfield.
HS: That’s right. It’s down to you.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. No. They were really good courses you know. I really enjoyed that.
HS: You found them really stimulating.
LP: Yeah. No doubt about that.
HS: But I guess it must have been quite something to come over to these actual aeroplanes out on the tarmac.
LP: Yeah. Well —
HS: They were huge weren’t they?
LP: Yeah.
HS: It must have been —
LP: Twenty-two foot in the air the engines were.
HS: My goodness.
LP: You had scaffolding to get up to them.
HS: Did you really? So ladders and whatever.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Just to climb up to the top.
LP: Yeah. To get up on the wings.
HS: A different view of the world up there.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And, and then when you started to service these aeroplanes you told me that it needed fifty people. Fifty for four engined aeroplanes.
LP: Yeah. Seven crew and then you’ve got, you’ve got a fitter for every engine. That’s four fitters for a start.
HS: Yes.
LP: Then you’ve got the riggers. They were the ones that had done the body like, you know.
HS: Oh right.
LP: The fuselage and all that.
HS: Okay.
LP: You’d got wireless people you know.
HS: Right.
LP: They had to come around and check it all out.
HS: Yeah.
LP: You’ve got the bombers, you’ve got the armourers that come and put the bombs on and the people that loaded the guns. You’d got, you’d got the people that come around, filled up the petrol. All eighteen gallons of oil each engine.
HS: My goodness. So, so this is when you’ve left your training and you’re actually doing it on the [unclear]
LP: Oh yeah. You were out on the fields. On the dispersal as we called it. Yeah.
HS: And on dispersal. Yeah. Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: So what was sort of if you had all those people it must have been amazing to watch. Everybody knew exactly where they were going.
LP: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It took you a day to turn one around.
HS: Yeah. Depending on perhaps how badly it was damaged of course.
LP: Well, yeah. I mean it depended on the damage you know. A few bullet holes in it.
HS: That wasn’t so serious.
LP: No. You could —
HS: Patch them up.
LP: They used to come out and patch them up, you know.
HS: Yes.
LP: But [pause] and you just had to work because they said well we want so many planes tonight and that was it.
HS: You had to get on with it. And how did you manage when, if an engine was badly damaged and you needed that aircraft —
LP: Change it.
HS: You managed to do that.
LP: Oh, we used to change them. Yeah.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: So to get —
LP: Well, you all mucked in together then.
HS: Yeah.
LP: You know, it was a case of —
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: Everybody helped each other out you know.
HS: Yeah.
LP: I know we perhaps shouldn’t have done but you know you all mucked in to help.
HS: Well, yes to get this aircraft out at the time you wanted it.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Used to sit on the bombs smoking.
HS: [laughs] did you? As casual as you like.
LP: Yeah. It never took off.
HS: That’s a relief. But you mentioned the name of, of one of them because of the valves which the radial valves they were called.
LP: Sleeve valves.
HS: Yeah. The Japanese called them Whisper —
LP: Oh, the Whispering Death. Yeah. They didn’t like them. They couldn’t hear them coming.
HS: And that’s because of the engine.
LP: Yeah. The engine because, the engineering you see they were very quiet.
HS: Yes.
LP: They didn’t like it.
HS: No. So they were a successful aircraft.
LP: Oh very. Yeah. The Beaufighter was a good engine, a good —
HS: Where were they used, Len?
LP: Well, in India a lot —
HS: Oh right.
LP: You know. Down in Burma because they were trying to stop the old Japs getting into India you see.
HS: Okay. Yes. Yes. So that was the field where they were.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Where they were used.
LP: Oh yeah. They were good. They’d got one, two, three. They had four rockets under each wing and machine guns. They were two-engined aircraft they were. The same engines as the others but they were smaller aircraft. Yeah. Whispering Death they used to call them.
HS: Whispering Death. It’s a very good description. Yes. So you followed looking at your track that you followed these aircraft abroad yourself.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HS: Into India.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah you went all over the place.
HS: Yes. Yes. It must have been quite an experience for a young man from Oxfordshire finding himself in India.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yes. But it was a very difficult trip over wasn’t it? Six weeks.
LP: Six weeks. Yeah.
HS: Trying to avoid enemy bombing.
LP: Well, you know it was the old U-boats that was the trouble.
HS: Yes.
LP: But that took a week from Madras to just outside Port Swettenham in —
HS: Yes.
LP: Malaya.
HS: Yes.
LP: That was a week. Curry and rice for a week [laughs] A Chinese crew.
HS: I see. Were you in a fit state to fight at the end of it all or to service the engines at the end of it?
LP: Throws a rope for the way [laughs]
HS: And the Beaufighters. You’ve mentioned the Beaufighters. They were useful aircraft in Burma and India.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Why were they so useful?
LP: Fast. Fast and quiet.
HS: Okay.
LP: Very quiet.
HS: Did you lose a lot of them?
LP: No. Not really. Not really, no. They couldn’t hear them coming you see.
HS: So it was a kind of a surprise and they were gone before —
LP: Gone. They were blowing up the railways and the shipping and you see things like that.
HS: Yes. Yes.
LP: Of course Mountbatten there was no getting the material overland then. It was all supplied from the air with the old Dax.
HS: Oh, the Dax. The American aeroplanes.
LP: Yeah. We got a lot of those about.
HS: So you were servicing the Army from the air.
LP: Yeah, and ourselves.
HS: And yourselves of course. Yes. You do, you do deserve the odd packet of cigarettes or chocolate.
LP: No. No. No, it was wonderful really because in the monsoons you can’t move you see. Everything gets stuck.
HS: Yes.
LP: And we were getting all our supplies from Dum Dum. That’s Calcutta. It was good because they came out every day you know. Threw a big canister out and that was it. You know, they put the rations in.
HS: So you didn’t starve then.
LP: No. No. We lived quite well actually.
HS: Given the conditions and the humidity.
LP: Yeah.
HS: That’s amazing. So Burma, sorry Mountbatten wanted you to continue through the monsoon.
LP: Yeah.
HS: In order to keep the pressure on.
LP: Yeah. That’s right. And it did.
HS: It worked.
LP: Yeah. Because the other didn’t. The Japs, they were in the same boat you see but they were coming towards us.
HS: Yes.
LP: We were trying to push them back.
HS: So they didn’t have the supplies.
LP: No.
HS: The system that you had.
LP: No. And you see having these Beaufighters you could go and you could blow railway bridges up where they were getting their supplies from you see.
HS: Yes.
LP: Coming up through Malaya and things like that.
HS: So they were very vulnerable then to this kind of —
LP: Yeah. Yeah. Shipping and all this you see.
HS: Yes. So how long did it take Len to win that part of the war?
LP: That part? About eighteen months I should think. Yeah.
HS: Really?
LP: That’s about all.
HS: Yes, because of —
LP: Two year.
HS: Because of the way it had been thought through.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HS: The strategy used.
LP: Oh yeah. You’d never, you’d never win a war I don’t think by just people on their feet you know. No.
HS: No. No. No.
LP: The jungle was a frightening place.
HS: Yes. Yes, it must have been.
LP: Too many things flying about at night with headlights on.
HS: Yes. Never mind the snakes and all the other things.
LP: I didn’t mind the big snakes so much. It was the little ones that —
HS: Yes.
LP: Big snakes if you saw them and you stood still and didn’t get them cornered they would eventually go.
HS: Okay. Yes.
LP: It was if you’d got them cornered and they couldn’t get away was the —
HS: Then —
LP: Then they’d stand up and look at you [laughs]
HS: Yes. Close encounters with a snake.
LP: Yeah. Now, if you saw one you just stood still.
HS: Yes.
LP: Watch what happened, you know.
HS: Yes. Yeah.
LP: But the little Kraits you didn’t put your fingers under nothing.
HS: No. You learned.
LP: Yeah. The hard way.
HS: Did you live inside tents and things to keep the rain off or just hopeless —
LP: Well they called them Bashas out there all made of bamboo. That was if there was, if you were anywhere near a base —
HS: Yeah.
LP: You know. I mean sometimes you just fell down at night and went to sleep.
HS: Of course. You were on the move most of the time.
LP: Most of the time. Yeah.
HS: Yes.
LP: What went over you in the night we don’t know.
HS: No [laughs] However, you did end up with malaria.
LP: Oh, I’ve had that. Yeah. I had that a long time.
HS: It took a long time —
LP: Yeah. Oh, I should think three or four years before I got rid of it.
HS: Yes.
LP: When I’d come back.
HS: Yes.
LP: But —
HS: Was this common? Did most men get it?
LP: Oh yeah. A lot of people. I mean there’s too many bugs out there you know.
HS: That’s right. Yes.
LP: We saw [pause] who was the one that went out to sing. I can’t think.
HS: Vera Lynn.
LP: Vera Lynn. I saw her down the Arakan Road. Yeah.
HS: Oh, did you?
LP: Yeah.
HS: Did it cheer you all up?
LP: Yeah. Well, I mean there was no cover. We just sat in the open.
HS: Right.
LP: She sung away there but it nearly killed her.
HS: Did it? What the climate do you mean?
LP: Yeah. They had to bring her back a bit quiet.
HS: Yes. Yes. Very tough.
LP: The climate was what you were fighting.
HS: Yeah. Indeed.
LP: Prickly heat and things like that.
HS: Malaria, prickly heat.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Everything was rotten.
LP: Dysentery. Everything. Everything you could think of.
HS: And what about water?
LP: You didn’t drink that. Not without putting tablets in it or boiling it.
HS: Yes.
LP: Or something.
HS: Yes.
LP: You just didn’t.
HS: No.
LP: No.
HS: So it was a very tough, tough time.
LP: Yeah. Used to have to put two tablets I think it was in your water bottle.
HS: Yeah.
LP: And they had to be in about twenty minutes.
HS: Yes.
LP: Then you put, then you had to put two more tablets in and I don’t know but it tasted horrible.
HS: I’m sure it did. I’m sure it wouldn’t have been [pause] No.
LP: No.
HS: It wouldn’t have made a nice cup of tea.
LP: No. I don’t think it would have done.
HS: One of the things I found intriguing was that you mentioned in the book, “A Parish at War,’ that you used silk maps.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Because paper was —
LP: Oh, it would be gone in the morning. Yeah.
HS: That fast.
LP: Cigarettes went rotten in the night.
HS: So everybody was off smoking.
LP: Well, it was alright if they were in a tin but on a packet they would be mouldy in the morning.
HS: Just as fast as that.
LP: Yes.
HS: Because the conditions were just right —
LP: Yeah.
HS: For the mould to grow.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yeah. I thought it was funny that when you got through this you went off to Madras and you were immediately given a whole new set of clothes. Jungle Greens as you called them.
LP: We were very near naked all of us when we came out.
HS: Your mothers wouldn’t have recognised you.
LP: I don’t know. They might have done [laughs] No. Your clothes didn’t last long.
HS: What was it like for you as a young man finding yourself in the eastern part of the world so different to here?
LP: Oh God. Yeah. The poverty.
HS: And you were very young.
LP: Yeah. The poverty that I just could not believe. The cruelty, the poverty, the conditions. It was —
HS: Yes. Yes. Did that strike all of you? Your first —
LP: Yeah. I think so. I think you know —
HS: Because of course today we see so much on TV. We read about it in the newspaper.
LP: Well, no, you don’t take, no, you don’t take any notice of it.
HS: In your generation that first seeing it it would have been so traumatic.
LP: The children out there half-starved and, oh dear.
HS: Yes.
LP: Terrible.
HS: Yes.
LP: My religion dropped out of the window a bit then when I first saw all of that.
HS: Yeah. I can understand that. It must have been a terrible shock.
LP: It is. Yeah. I didn’t think things went on like that you know.
HS: No.
LP: But there you are.
HS: What was, if you look back on that time what was the sort of worse job you had to do because it all sounds pretty terrible. But in terms of being an engineer in those situations what was the worst thing you had to manage?
LP: Really everything I think. Yeah.
HS: Just an accumulative effect.
LP: No. Getting water to wash. You had to wash everyday with something you know.
HS: Yes.
LP: And if you, well you just got water where you could but you must get yourself clean because if not, it’s prickly and all around there, terrible.
HS: I see.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And that would have driven you mad.
LP: Yeah. And you mustn’t drink it. You couldn’t drink the water.
HS: No. No. No. So that was the hard thing.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Just the physical side of keeping —
LP: You had to look after yourself. You couldn’t just eat something and say well —
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: You’d be dead the next day.
HS: Yes. Yes. It must have been amazing when you finally got to civilisation that you could just sit down and eat a sandwich or something.
LP: Yeah. No. You had to be a bit careful what you —
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: Because there was no hygiene out there.
HS: Did the Army teach you these things?
LP: Oh, they teach you a lot yes.
HS: Yes.
LP: Yes.
HS: To keep you alive and all that.
LP: To keep you. Oh, yeah. I mean they did do the best to look after you.
HS: Yes.
LP: But I mean it’s not easy.
HS: No. How long were you out there altogether?
LP: I reckon about three years I suppose. Getting on that way.
HS: A long time.
LP: Something like that.
HS: Yeah. Eventually the atom bomb brought the war in Asia to an end.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. That —
HS: And you were demobbed in 1946.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Coming back home after some years away. Yeah.
LP: Yeah. I don’t know. I think the worst part was leaving England.
HS: In the first place.
LP: Yeah. But once you got into another country it didn’t worry me much.
HS: You adapted —
LP: Yeah.
HS: To it.
LP: Yeah, but because we got on the Athlone Castle in the Clyde, you know, Glasgow. Then when we were sailing down the Clyde you had a lump in your throat as big as your fist sort of thing.
HS: Yes.
LP: You know, because you suddenly realise you were not home anymore.
HS: That’s right. That’s when it hit you.
LP: Yeah. You were packed like, I mean on those troop ships you were packed like sardines, you know.
HS: Yeah. No space to move.
LP: No.
HS: No space to walk about for six weeks.
LP: They put you in a hammock, sent you to sleep and then they took you out and the next bloke got in and he went to sleep and they stood you up in a corner somewhere.
HS: It’s a good job you were young and could tough it out like.
LP: Yeah. Well, yeah.
HS: And then of course in reverse you have the other thing. Coming back to the UK. Coming back to England. Adapting to a civilian life.
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: That’s again a difficult —
LP: You miss all your mates.
HS: Right.
LP: That’s what I found the harder. The chaps that you left behind out of your own village, in the local what that you knew I’ve never seen some of them ever again. I mean I don’t know, I don’t think they were killed perhaps not all of them or anything but they got scattered.
HS: They got scattered. Yes.
LP: Some I suppose perhaps married and living up north or south or somewhere but you know.
HS: Yeah. So that was tough coming from that time.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: And then finding you had to sort of start again.
LP: Yeah. I did miss them. I did miss —
HS: I can understand that.
LP: It being quiet and you know.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Because if there’s a gang of you you always sort of you know.
HS: And of course you left as a teenager if you like.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Came back as a man with many years of war experience. It’s different.
LP: You know, it was a different, well, it was an experience I never think I’d have.
HS: No.
LP: No.
HS: No. But you found a job which you said to me were the best ten years of your life.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Tell us about that.
LP: Oh, that was, that was close to ten years at the Holt Garage. I mean there was no spares and everything in this country was sort of run down you know.
HS: Of course.
LP: As long as the wheels went around on a car —
HS: Yeah.
LP: That didn’t matter to anybody. As long as the wheels went around. But the things we used to do to keep them going was nobody’s business.
HS: But all this creativity you’ve learned during the war —
LP: Yeah.
HS: Patching up aeroplanes you presumably used to patch up cars.
LP: Yeah. Well, we used to. Well, I don’t know. We used to put one tyre inside another because you couldn’t get tyres. We used to beg, borrow, steal, make, mend. It was, it was good really because you never knew what you were going to do that day, you know.
HS: Right.
LP: Everything was a challenge.
HS: Exactly. You had to invent. Use things you’d used before.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Adapt stuff.
LP: Yeah [laughs] But nobody worried. Sort of as long as the wheels went around.
HS: Yeah.
LP: They were quite happy.
HS: So what sort of vehicles at that time? We are talking what 1946.
LP: Well, there was Austins. There was Austins. There was Morris’. There was Standard. There was the old Standard Vanguard came out towards the back end. There, well once they started getting on their feet again you know. It took a few years.
HS: Yeah.
LP: It all came back really.
HS: Yes. And what about, I mean there were a lot of farms in Deddington at that time. Were the farmers, did they use your custom as well? Did you work on their vehicles?
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean before the war they used to buy American cars to sweep the hay. You know when they’d cut the crop of grass.
HS: Yeah.
LP: And they used to put, like on the front they used to buy these old big American cars because they had power and they used to put a rake on the front and scoop all this grass up.
HS: Oh, I see.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Oh that was creative.
LP: That was why the farmers moaned because they used a lot of petrol you see. Big old cars you see.
HS: Now I understand why. The ha’penny on a gallon of petrol —
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: Was significant.
LP: ‘Going to ruin us farmers.’ [laughs]
HS: Yeah. But I mean it sounds like you were sort of really creative and engineering. You weren’t just fitting bits but you were taking time to be creative.
LP: No. You had to make it.
HS: You had to make it first.
LP: You would be days making bits —
HS: Yeah.
LP: And welding bits and that but there never seemed to be that hurry you know. People just —
HS: No. You had time to do. People accepted —
LP: Yeah.
HS: That that was a job you had to work on.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Talking of welding I think you have a lovely phrase called blacksmith’s weld. Could you tell us what that is?
LP: That is because a chap I worked for he was a blacksmith in the early days of his life.
HS: At the [unclear] garage.
LP: Yes. And we, we had a high-pressure washer and a big piece blew out the side. So I made a plate, drew it all, put it on and it leaked. He said, ‘Oh, never mind boy,’ he says, ‘Clean it up,’ and he says, ‘We’ll do a blacksmith, we’ll do a russ weld on it.’ I’d never heard of a russ weld in my life.
HS: No.
LP: And he brings out this paste. I think it was salammoniac I think.
HS: Oh.
LP: Brought this paste out, put it all back together. Spread this old muck around it you know [laughs] Horrible. And he says, ‘Ah well.’ He says, ‘We’ll come back in six weeks and have a look at it.’
HS: Six weeks. Right.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And —
LP: That was it. The length of time nobody worried about time.
HS: No. No. Right.
LP: Six weeks later he came back. It was just one mass of rust. Never leaked no more.
HS: Amazing.
LP: Yeah. Blacksmith’s weld. It was —
HS: He knew about it.
LP: Oh yeah, because he was, he was quite a clever bloke.
HS: Isn’t that interesting though that it’s six weeks. Today we want instant answers don’t we?
LP: Oh yeah. Six weeks. Yeah.
HS: But he knew. He was confident that that would work.
LP: Oh yeah. I mean he just tidied it up a bit.
HS: Sure.
LP: Put a bit of paint on it and that was the end of it.
HS: Yes.
LP: Yes. Six weeks. ‘We’ll have a look at it,’ he says. That was it and it worked. It never leaked anymore. What happened was this paste that he’d put on was very corrosive and it attacked both metals you see.
HS: Oh. Okay.
LP: It attacked them and they grew together.
HS: Surfaces grew together.
LP: Grew together you see.
HS: I see. Ingenious.
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah.
HS: Now, here’s a very personal question Len because the fact that you had to adapt things and never threw anything away are you like that as well now? You never throw anything away.
LP: Oh, My God. There’s more rubbish in my place [laughs] It’s no good having one skip. You’d want about ten.
HS: Okay. So, okay you’ve never changed your practice.
LP: Oh no.
HS: You keep everything.
LP: You don’t throw nothing out.
HS: I’m sure given your interest in making things that you do find things that you’ve got.
LP: Ah, but you see if you’ve got something you can make something.
HS: This is true.
LP: But if you’ve got nothing you can’t make nothing.
HS: No. So, do you, do you know where all your rubbish —
LP: All there.
HS: You do understand. Yes. You’ve kept tabs on it.
LP: Oh yes. It’s all boxed.
HS: You can always lay your hand on things.
LP: If you come down you can see it.
HS: Yes.
LP: All boxed up —
HS: Yes.
LP: And labelled.
HS: Yeah. But I’m sure that just to go back to that era that the farmers would have, they would have had all sorts of odd problems with their machinery.
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: And you were ingenious in the way you fixed them so —
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah. I used to go around the farms welding.
HS: Yes. Yes. Just go to them and do it for them there.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Because, because then after that you had your own garage didn’t you?
LP: Yeah.
HS: In Deddington.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Archway Garage. Where the dentist is today.
LP: That’s it. Yeah.
HS: Yeah. But —
LP: That was a blacksmith’s shop.
HS: Originally a blacksmith?
LP: In the early days yeah.
HS: Isn’t that interesting that they were both blacksmith’s shops.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And have become garages.
LP: Yeah. Now, these old blacksmiths they were clever old boys.
HS: Yeah. Plenty of experience.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And tough.
LP: Yeah. The finish may not be quite up to what today’s standards but it used to work.
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: I welded one of the clappers in Deddington Church tower. I think it’s been replaced since but a chap named Bill Ivans he was at tower. He looked after the tower and you know that was about that long and you know that big. It took me all one Saturday afternoon to weld that back together and about two bottles of oxygen.
HS: Goodness.
LP: And that was there for years and years and years. Never broke.
HS: No.
LP: No. Used to do some funny jobs but they were all good experiences.
HS: Yes. Yes and I remember you saying to me that you found that the working men were always very honest.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah. I got on well with the working class. It was the ones with titles and all the sirs and all this business.
HS: Yeah. I can imagine especially after having been in the Army.
LP: Well, they don’t pay.
HS: Amazing.
LP: One chap rung and he said, ‘I can’t start my car.’ And there was all snow on the ground. I said, so I says, ‘I’d be around in three months.’ He went through the roof.
HS: Three months why?
LP: I said, ‘You’ve owed me money for three months so —’ I says, ‘I’ll be around to start your car in three months.’
HS: Did he get the message?
LP: Oh yes. He paid because he couldn’t move.
HS: In other words you had all the power at that moment didn’t you? It took a lot to speak out like that though, Len.
LP: Well, you got used to that.
HS: Yes. Yes.
LP: Well, most of them were very good actually because farmers had a bad reputation at one time you know. ‘Can’t pay you. Got to wait until the harvest.’ And all this business but no they were very good.
HS: Yes. Perhaps they respected fellow workers who also [unclear]
LP: Yeah. Maybe, I don’t know but they were alright.
HS: Yeah. And also of course you could talk their language in the sense of understanding the machinery that they were worried about.
LP: Well, they seemed to understand the language. Yes [laughs]. They certainly did. Yes.
HS: Okay. So changing the subject while all this was going on you are of course meeting the love of your life Marjorie and having three boys, three sons.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And living, you built your own house I think.
LP: Well, I was living at the garage when I first started. Then I got a plot of land and had a, well a chalet bungalow. It was a fair bit of land.
HS: Yes.
LP: We moved in there what? Been in there forty, getting on for fifty years I’ve been.
HS: Did you design the house yourself?
LP: Me design the house? You must be joking.
HS: I just wondered [laughs].
LP: No. No. No. I got some builders to sort it all out but didn’t have time. I used to work from about seven in the morning until about ten at night.
HS: Yes. Yes. Quite. Yeah. Eventually you retired but I think that you’ve carried on with your love of cars.
LP: Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, you’ve got to carry on doing something.
HS: But now you’re doing it for love not, not the money.
LP: No. No. [unclear] over the years I’ve been doing the cars.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Been interesting too because some of them have been very old and it’s engineering before I was sort of born.
HS: My goodness me.
LP: And it’s not quite the same. The principle of car engines never changed. Not from the day it was first brought out. I mean it’s been improved a lot of course but I mean the principle is exactly the same but this last one 1907. A bit different. When you press the accelerator you went slower and when you put the brakes the brakes worked in reverse.
HS: Oh my goodness. That would take a bit of getting used to.
LP: And you didn’t like to sort of make the controls different so we had to adapt the controls to suit many other things you know.
HS: Yes. So this was a very unusual vehicle then.
LP: Yeah.
HS: It’s not according to the normal standard.
LP: I’ll take you down and show it to you one day.
HS: And this is from 1907.
LP: 1907.
HS: And what was it called?
LP: It’s called a Baby Friswell.
HS: And where was it originally built?
LP: Well, it’s half French and it’s half English.
HS: Ah. So there may have been communication problems originally.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. It’s part, the engines are De Dion which is French. The chassis is Delage. The wings and the settee, I call it a settee on wheels [laughs] that was made in England. There was only twenty made. No, it wasn’t. Two hundred made. Two hundred made and we’ve got fifty-eight. I think it’s number fifty-eight.
HS: You actually got the number. So it must be worth a lot now.
LP: It’s not mine though. It’s not mine. No. It belongs to a friend of mine.
HS: You just worked on it. Yes. Amazing.
LP: I’ve been on it what five or six years for him. He can drive up the road now.
HS: So it took you all that many years to get it right.
LP: Well, yeah. I mean not just every day.
HS: No. No.
LP: Sort of thing.
HS: But —
LP: Got a self-starter on it now. A self-starter and different brakes. Brakes were metal to metal.
HS: I can’t imagine the noise [laughs]
LP: That runs quite well. It ticks over and starts up. Got to put a starter on it. That was no mean [laughs] It took me quite a while to sort that out.
HS: Yes. I mean it took a lot of persistence to—
LP: Yeah.
HS: Find one task after another.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Needed adjusting.
LP: Yeah.
HS: What is your favourite old car?
LP: I don’t know really. I did like the old Morris Minors. I did like them because they were very reliable. They weren’t the lap of luxury —
HS: No.
LP: But very very reliable.
HS: So why was that? The engine was well built. I mean what made it —
LP: Yeah. Simple.
HS: Right.
LP: And really nothing to go wrong on them you know.
HS: Yeah. So they were kind of workhorses that you could —
LP: Yeah. They were. I had eight of them at one time used to send them out on hire.
HS: Goodness. Yeah. So no matter who drove them they still, well they were still in good condition.
LP: I never had to fetch one home.
HS: No. No.
LP: Never.
HS: No. So I can see why you would say that was a favourite car.
LP: Yeah, it was —
HS: It was so well engineered.
LP: It was. A bit of rust trouble. They used to rust a bit.
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: But I mean they never let you down.
HS: Yeah.
LP: You could always get home with them.
HS: That’s quite important.
LP: Yeah. Alright they were. I liked the old Minor thousand.
HS: And so now also you showed me a clock that you’ve made carved out of wood.
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: You are doing other projects now Len. Not just the cars.
LP: Oh yeah. Wood butcher.
HS: A wood butcher. It doesn’t look like it’s butchered to me. It looks beautifully made.
LP: I’ve done two hundred now.
HS: You’ve done two hundred clocks.
LP: They’re all scattered all over the place.
HS: And, and are they all made like the one I’ve seen? In wood.
LP: No, can’t make two the same.
HS: Oh right. So it’s always going to be different. You don’t have to —
LP: No two the same.
HS: Are they all made from wood?
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: Or is it different materials?
LP: No. All wood.
HS: So does it, do you start with the wood itself then?
LP: Well, an old lump of wood. Yeah.
HS: And then decide which way it’s going to go.
LP: Yeah. Then perhaps I suspect after several days I need to throw it away because I don’t like it.
HS: You don’t like it though. Trial and error.
LP: Well, no I’ve done [pause] they’re all over the place aren’t they? I’ll get, I’ll get the unit from Sheffield.
HS: Oh yes, the actual time.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Mechanism thing.
LP: I just ring them up and they just send it to me. No trouble. A good firm to deal with. The first time I sent them, well sent an order to them I thought well, I sent them a cheque and thought I won’t get nothing for about three weeks before the cheque’s cleared and everything. It was back by return of post.
HS: Oh fantastic.
LP: Marvellous.
HS: So you were able to just get going straight away.
LP: I just, I just ring them up now. I just ring them up and say, ‘I want —’ so and so. I say, ‘I’ll put you a cheque in the post.’ And they say, ‘Alright. Fair enough.’ The last lot I ordered was on a mid-day Friday. I said, ‘The post goes out at 4 o’clock.’ I said, ‘I’ll put a cheque in the post.’ Told me how much it was and the bits turned up on Monday and a little thank you for the cheque. Can’t have better service than that.
HS: That’s, that’s really good.
LP: Yeah. They are a good, a jolly good firm to deal with.
HS: Yeah.
LP: You know.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Never had no trouble at all. Well, I’ve got to do something. I can’t just sit about.
HS: You can’t just sit back but I know that one of the things you also do is gardening. You do —
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: That’s a big part as well of not sitting about. It’s not a garden to sit in. It’s a garden to put things, dig and —
LP: Enjoy yourself.
HS: Enjoy.
LP: Yeah. You can’t. I can’t sit about.
HS: So if you can’t sit about have you thought of because you are going to be ninety-one in a few week’s time.
LP: Well, that doesn’t matter does it?
HS: No. I’m just thinking I think you’ve a project in mind for your ninety-second year you see.
LP: More clocks I expect.
HS: More clocks or something different or different, do something different with your garden.
LP: No. I don’t know. The garden is alright. I’ve got that pretty well under control. Been a bit of a nuisance this lot of wet weather because you can’t get in. I’ve put the spuds on [pause] was it Sunday? Sunday or Saturday, I can’t remember. One of them but that’s yeah you must come down one afternoon and have a look.
HS: I would like that very much. Thank you very much, Len.
LP: Yeah. Rubbish [laughs] No. I don’t throw nothing away. Nothing. It’s all put away somewhere.
HS: And you never know the day when you will need it again.
LP: No.
HS: So, thank you very much Len for talking to me about your interests and your life.
LP: No. You’ve got to have interests in life. I’ve never been used to sitting about you see.
HS: No. No.
LP: But there we go anyway.
HS: And I’d like to quote you some words you gave to me which was, ‘I’m still breathing so why worry?’
LP: Well [laughs] Yeah. Well, that’s it.
HS: That’s it.
LP: Well, there’s no good worrying.
HS: Very good philosophy.
LP: No good at —
HS: But thank you, Len. Thank you very much.
LP: It’s no good keep worrying and that. Blimey, when the old boy comes around with his old sickle and he says that’s it [laughs] you can do nothing about it so there’s no good worrying yourself to death. I gave that up long ago. Just soldier gently on. No. I’m always doing something. Somebody comes in with something. A chap came in one day with a lawn mower and, but he couldn’t start it or something. I forgot what I’d done with it. Oh, the controllers were all broken. I said, ‘Leave it. I’ll do it.’ Got around the scrap. I found another one. It’s a little bit different. It’s got a little bit different plug on it whereas I said, he said, ‘It’s better than when I had it.’ You know you can usually get around all these things. It takes a bit of time sometimes.
HS: That’s right. The ingenuity but also what you were saying is the time it takes. Not to think you’ve got to do it tomorrow.
LP: Oh no. No. That’s it.
HS: In due course these things solutions emerge.
LP: Yeah. I get a lot of the Car Club come for bits and pieces and what can I do with this and what can I do with that? Can nearly always fix them up. But there you are. It’s all interesting you know.
HS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you Len.
LP: That’s alright.
HS: Thank you very much indeed.
[pause]
HS: My thanks to Len Plumb for sharing his personal memories and his insights into life in Deddington before and after the war. My name is Hilary Smith and you’ve been listening to Deddington Discussions on Deddington on Air. Next time I’ll be talking to Bill Cowley.
LP: Oh Bill. Yeah.
HS: Until then goodbye and thank you for listening.
LP: Old Bill.
HS: Yeah.
LP: That’s alright.
HS: Taking you back to, to the beginning, you were born on a midsummer night. Didn’t quite make midsummer. Is that right?
LP: Yeah. Midsummer Night’s Dream.
HS: Not Midsummer Night’s Dream.
LP: No. Not quite. Nearly.
HS: More like —
LP: Nightmare I was. Yeah.
HS: And that, and that was, at that time you lived in, your family lived in the Post Office cottages.
LP: Well, that’s right. Yeah.
HS: Do you remember those early days? Your father worked on the railways?
LP: Yeah.
HS: And do you remember what sort of things you did as a little kid there?
LP: Played football in the street [laughs]
HS: You didn’t get run over by tractors and things like that in those days.
LP: Oh no. The cars were very few and far between.
HS: Yes. Yes. Yes. Did you have brothers and sisters?
LP: One brother and one that I never knew. He died at three year old. I didn’t know him.
HS: I’m sorry, Len.
LP: But that was life then.
HS: Yes. Yes, indeed. Did you have friends locally that you could play with or was it —
LP: Oh yeah. Plenty. Plenty to play with. Yes.
HS: Yes, and did you go to school in Clifton or did you have to travel?
LP: Went to school in Clifton until we were seven I think and after that we had to walk to Deddington and back every day.
HS: That’s a long way for little legs.
LP: A mile and a half each way.
HS: Yes. Yes. Yeah. So at the school in in Clifton was it, did it have one teacher? Was it just one room?
LP: Yes. One lady. I can’t remember her name.
HS: No.
LP: At the moment.
HS: Do you remember what you did there? Was it just —
LP: I don’t know. Not a lot I don’t think [laughs]
HS: Yeah. I remember that childhood of lots of games and things. I remember you telling me that you looked, you enjoyed the day that you were given a fretsaw.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah. That kept me out of mischief.
HS: In what way? What did you do?
LP: Well, I used to love cutting things out you know with a fretsaw.
HS: Yeah.
LP: And making things. Yeah.
HS: Yes.
LP: It was lovely.
HS: Yes. Did I think you got hold of some tea chests.
LP: Oh, well tea used to come in big chests in those days.
HS: Right.
LP: And there used to be a local greengrocer in the village and when that chest were empty we could buy those for a few coppers and —
HS: Oh, I see.
LP: Cut them up and —
HS: Perfect.
LP: Yeah. Lovely.
HS: So you made, what sort of things did you make with that?
LP: Oh God. All sorts of things you know. Anything. Yeah. Really. Yeah.
HS: And did you stick them together?
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were all made. Yeah. We used to enjoy that. A bit of woodwork.
HS: Yes. So would you say you had a sort of talent for it? You enjoyed doing that?
LP: Anything with my hands.
HS: Right.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yeah. I expect your mother must have found you helpful if you were good with your hands as well.
LP: I don’t know. I suppose she did. She used to make use of it. Yeah.
HS: Yeah. What sort of jobs were you expected to do?
LP: Clean shoes [laughs]
HS: Yes. That horrible childhood job.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Laying out the newspaper. Putting the shoes. Yes. Talking of something more cheerful I remember you told me you had a bike and you loved —
LP: Oh yeah. That was in bits though more [laughs] —
HS: It was more in bits than actually while on the road.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And why was that, Len?
LP: I don’t know. It just interested I suppose.
HS: To take it apart.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And to see how it worked.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: So even as a young boy you were already interested in —
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: How things were worked.
LP: Always been interested in doing something with my hands. Yeah.
HS: With your hands. Yeah. Do you think you picked that up from your father who you said worked on the railways?
LP: I don’t know really. No doubt interested, you know. Interested in the railways so, you know.
HS: Yeah. But I suppose in those days we had to be practical in a way. We couldn’t go to a shop and buy something.
LP: Oh, good lord no. No.
HS: We had to make it ourselves didn’t we? Yeah.
LP: You couldn’t afford it anyhow, you know.
HS: No, that’s right. That’s true. Yes.
LP: No. Times were hard.
HS: Times were hard. So do you remember riding the bike anywhere at all or was it always in pieces.
LP: Oh yeah. Around the street you know.
HS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
LP: Like mad things.
HS: Yes [laughs] yes. What was it like being a young boy in those days? I think life was quite strict wasn’t it?
LP: Oh yeah. Oh yes. No meant no.
HS: No meant no. Yeah.
LP: Yeah. Or else a big hand —
HS: Yes.
LP: Caught you on the backside a bit sharp you know.
HS: Yes. So you always had to be on time.
LP: Oh yeah. Time was time you know.
HS: Yeah. How did you, living in Clifton how did you judge the time when you were out?
LP: How were the trains?
HS: Oh, tell me. The trains.
LP: Yeah.
HS: You could rely on the trains —
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: For time keeping.
LP: Used to see them come down the line and used to say 2:10 at Paddington. You know, from Paddington.
HS: Right.
LP: Banbury about twenty to three. Yeah.
HS: So your life was lived according to the train times.
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah. And they did run in, you know in good time.
HS: They did. Yeah. That was useful for you as kids.
LP: Yeah.
HS: To know what time to get home for lunch or something. For dinner. Did this discovering of how things worked was that something that always stayed with you as a kid?
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah. I’ve always been interested in you know.
HS: Yeah. And when you went to school did you have a chance to do it then?
LP: Funnily enough, gardening.
HS: Oh.
LP: Gardening and woodwork.
HS: Right. Those were part of the curriculum were they?
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Very practical things.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Which you need as a child.
LP: That. Getting those, yeah.
HS: Using your hands.
LP: A lot of practical jobs you know.
HS: Yeah. You, talking of practical jobs I mean you left school at around fourteen as people did then.
LP: Fourteen. Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Yeah. And then you went into a job which is building on that ability to but they called you a grease monkey. Is that —
LP: Yeah. That’s right.
HS: Where was this?
LP: In Deddington. Yeah. Down the main road.
HS: Right.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Is that the place that is on the corner of Hudson Street?
LP: That’s right. Yeah.
HS: Macy’s shop it is now.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: So what was that when you were there?
LP: It was an ironmongers and a garage.
HS: Oh, okay. Okay.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And so what was your job? You were fourteen.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And —
LP: Greased cars, cleaned them.
HS: Hence grease monkey. And why did they call you a monkey? Does that imply squeezing into places no one else could go and —
LP: I don’t know.
HS: Sort of being very agile.
LP: That was [laughs] grease monkey was the very bottom where you started.
HS: Okay. So that was how you learned the hard way.
LP: Yeah.
HS: You worked your way up from there.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yeah. I mean was it a responsible job did you find?
LP: Well, I suppose so yes because if you didn’t do it right —
HS: Yeah.
LP: You’d get the sack.
HS: Yeah. And did you ever get asked to do other things or was that just basically what you did?
LP: Well, no. You’d done all sorts of jobs you know. You were general dogsbody.
HS: Yeah.
LP: As they call it.
HS: Yeah. Did you feel you learned though because that was the first time in the adult world really.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Being —
LP: Oh yeah. It was very interesting in lots of things you know.
HS: Yes. Do you remember the customers? How were they? How did they treat people like you?
LP: They were alright. Yeah. Alright. Farmers didn’t like us very much because petrol went up.
HS: Yes.
LP: Ha’penny a gallon.
HS: I see, and they took it out on you.
LP: Well [laughs] they reckoned it was going to ruin the farmers going up a ha’penny a gallon.
HS: Yes. Yes. But today that job isn’t necessary any more is it? The grease. The greasing.
LP: Oh no. Not these days. No.
HS: Everything is —
LP: Everything is all pre-packed.
HS: And sealed and it’s just installed into the engine.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And that’s it.
LP: When it wears out it just falls to bits.
HS: Yes. Yes. But then reused no doubt.
LP: Yeah. Well —
HS: Yeah.
LP: Different world now.
HS: Exactly. Yes it is. So then I remember that coming up to the kind of the war breaking out that was a tough time. Jobs were scarce.
LP: Well, businesses just went out.
HS: Yes.
LP: There was nothing to do you see.
HS: No. No. That was tough but you said you worked for Pressed Steel.
LP: Pressed Steel in Oxford for a while. Yeah.
HS: What was that like?
LP: Making sea mines.
HS: Making, so they were already anticipating the war then.
LP: Oh, the war had started.
HS: Okay. Okay.
LP: That started you know and so —
HS: How big were these sea mines?
LP: Oh, about, well they’d be about that high. About four foot I suppose tall by about what would they be? About four foot long I suppose. About five or six foot around. Massive things.
HS: They are massive.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Goodness. Yes. How did you get on with that job?
LP: Couldn’t stand factory life. Twelve hour shifts. Night shifts.
HS: Twelve hours a night. That’s a killer isn’t it?
LP: Killed. Yeah. I couldn’t stick it.
HS: No. No. So, of course you didn’t have your own transport in those days.
LP: Oh no. Good Lord no.
HS: So you had to get to Oxford. Do a night shift.
LP: I used to bike it sometimes.
HS: Goodness.
LP: But it was killing me so I thought well —
HS: So what did you do instead?
LP: Joined up.
HS: You joined up. By then you joined the Air Force then.
LP: Yeah.
HS: You already knew that that was the Service that you wanted to go into.
LP: Yeah. I did really because you know planes were just sort of coming.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Technologically that was the new —
LP: Yeah.
HS: The new thing.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: So you were very attracted to the idea —
LP: Yeah.
HS: Of getting your hands on aircraft engines instead.
LP: Yeah. But good courses, you know. It was very good. Really enjoyed that.
HS: Yes. You must have learned a lot. But tell us. You had to, how did you actually join up? You had to go to South Wales.
LP: Oh you had to be sworn in.
HS: Okay.
LP: Yeah. And get the King’s Shilling.
HS: Oh. What was the King’s Shilling?
LP: A shilling.
HS: An actual shilling.
LP: An actual shilling.
HS: And that was in recognition of you swearing —
LP: Yeah. Yeah. That was the King’s Shilling that was. Yeah. But that was, they gave you that and because you had sworn in to be, serve your country.
HS: Yes.
LP: Yeah.
HS: So it was quite a serious ceremony.
LP: Oh yes. Oh definitely. Yeah.
HS: Yeah. And then did you get a choice of what to do or did you get straight onto a course?
LP: No. You had to square bash for —
HS: Oh.
LP: You got square bashing first and you —
HS: Oh right. Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: So that got you fit if you weren’t fit already.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HS: But then after that do you remember was there any choice or did you —
LP: You could have joined any of the Services really but I was quite happy there where I was.
HS: Yeah. Yes. And you started to specialise.
LP: Yeah. Well, I got into sleeve valve engines you know which were wonderful engines but very complicated but —
HS: Yes.
LP: I enjoyed that.
HS: So you learned a lot about engines.
LP: Oh yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Good courses you know.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And who were the people who taught you? Were they also —
LP: Civilians mostly.
HS: They were civilians.
LP: Yeah. Eight of them people we’d see was at Bristol you know.
HS: Oh yes.
LP: Bristol made the engines down there.
HS: Right.
LP: Had to go down there on a two week’s course so as you know other than the Air Force course.
HS: Right. So you saw them in situ.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HS: What it was.
LP: Oh yeah. You had to build engines and things you know. They made sure you —
HS: Yeah.
LP: You knew the way to do it.
HS: Were these factories vast things?
LP: Yeah. Pretty big. Yeah.
HS: So you —
LP: You had to, it got bombed many times down in Bristol.
HS: Right.
LP: That was an every night job nearly.
HS: It would have been a target.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Because they went on producing aeroplanes.
LP: Yeah. At Filton.
HS: Yes.
LP: Yeah. It was alright.
HS: What a contrast to Pressed Steel.
LP: Oh God, yeah. I couldn’t stand the factory. I couldn’t stand it.
HS: No.
LP: It was like [pause] I don’t know.
HS: But you could say that this was a factory as well. What was different about it when you were in the Air Force?
LP: Yeah. But it did. The noise at the Pressed Steel all night long. It was the machinery going.
HS: I see.
LP: All night long you know.
HS: I see, and this was not like that.
LP: No. A bit of noise but, you know it was not that sort of noise you know.
HS: Yeah. So what sort of jobs did you do? Do you remember what sort of training and jobs you had to do? Did you have to actually build an engine?
LP: Oh yeah. Oh yes. There was a lot to learn too. Oh yes. It was a good course you know.
HS: Yes. And the objective of you doing this Len was to then service these engines.
LP: Oh yeah. Oh God, yeah.
HS: So this is why you had to learn how they were made.
LP: Oh yeah. You’d got to know how they work and everything because I mean you’ve got nobody else when you’re out on an airfield.
HS: That’s right. It’s down to you.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. No. They were really good courses you know. I really enjoyed that.
HS: You found them really stimulating.
LP: Yeah. No doubt about that.
HS: But I guess it must have been quite something to come over to these actual aeroplanes out on the tarmac.
LP: Yeah. Well —
HS: They were huge weren’t they?
LP: Yeah.
HS: It must have been —
LP: Twenty-two foot in the air the engines were.
HS: My goodness.
LP: You had scaffolding to get up to them.
HS: Did you really? So ladders and whatever.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Just to climb up to the top.
LP: Yeah. To get up on the wings.
HS: A different view of the world up there.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And, and then when you started to service these aeroplanes you told me that it needed fifty people. Fifty for four engined aeroplanes.
LP: Yeah. Seven crew and then you’ve got, you’ve got a fitter for every engine. That’s four fitters for a start.
HS: Yes.
LP: Then you’ve got the riggers. They were the ones that had done the body like, you know.
HS: Oh right.
LP: The fuselage and all that.
HS: Okay.
LP: You’d got wireless people you know.
HS: Right.
LP: They had to come around and check it all out.
HS: Yeah.
LP: You’ve got the bombers, you’ve got the armourers that come and put the bombs on and the people that loaded the guns. You’d got, you’d got the people that come around, filled up the petrol. All eighteen gallons of oil each engine.
HS: My goodness. So, so this is when you’ve left your training and you’re actually doing it on the [unclear]
LP: Oh yeah. You were out on the fields. On the dispersal as we called it. Yeah.
HS: And on dispersal. Yeah. Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: So what was sort of if you had all those people it must have been amazing to watch. Everybody knew exactly where they were going.
LP: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It took you a day to turn one around.
HS: Yeah. Depending on perhaps how badly it was damaged of course.
LP: Well, yeah. I mean it depended on the damage you know. A few bullet holes in it.
HS: That wasn’t so serious.
LP: No. You could —
HS: Patch them up.
LP: They used to come out and patch them up, you know.
HS: Yes.
LP: But [pause] and you just had to work because they said well we want so many planes tonight and that was it.
HS: You had to get on with it. And how did you manage when, if an engine was badly damaged and you needed that aircraft —
LP: Change it.
HS: You managed to do that.
LP: Oh, we used to change them. Yeah.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Yeah.
HS: So to get —
LP: Well, you all mucked in together then.
HS: Yeah.
LP: You know, it was a case of —
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: Everybody helped each other out you know.
HS: Yeah.
LP: I know we perhaps shouldn’t have done but you know you all mucked in to help.
HS: Well, yes to get this aircraft out at the time you wanted it.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Used to sit on the bombs smoking.
HS: [laughs] did you? As casual as you like.
LP: Yeah. It never took off.
HS: That’s a relief. But you mentioned the name of, of one of them because of the valves which the radial valves they were called.
LP: Sleeve valves.
HS: Yeah. The Japanese called them Whisper —
LP: Oh, the Whispering Death. Yeah. They didn’t like them. They couldn’t hear them coming.
HS: And that’s because of the engine.
LP: Yeah. The engine because, the engineering you see they were very quiet.
HS: Yes.
LP: They didn’t like it.
HS: No. So they were a successful aircraft.
LP: Oh very. Yeah. The Beaufighter was a good engine, a good —
HS: Where were they used, Len?
LP: Well, in India a lot —
HS: Oh right.
LP: You know. Down in Burma because they were trying to stop the old Japs getting into India you see.
HS: Okay. Yes. Yes. So that was the field where they were.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: Where they were used.
LP: Oh yeah. They were good. They’d got one, two, three. They had four rockets under each wing and machine guns. They were two-engined aircraft they were. The same engines as the others but they were smaller aircraft. Yeah. Whispering Death they used to call them.
HS: Whispering Death. It’s a very good description. Yes. So you followed looking at your track that you followed these aircraft abroad yourself.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah.
HS: Into India.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah you went all over the place.
HS: Yes. Yes. It must have been quite an experience for a young man from Oxfordshire finding himself in India.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yes. But it was a very difficult trip over wasn’t it? Six weeks.
LP: Six weeks. Yeah.
HS: Trying to avoid enemy bombing.
LP: Well, you know it was the old U-boats that was the trouble.
HS: Yes.
LP: But that took a week from Madras to just outside Port Swettenham in —
HS: Yes.
LP: Malaya.
HS: Yes.
LP: That was a week. Curry and rice for a week [laughs] A Chinese crew.
HS: I see. Were you in a fit state to fight at the end of it all or to service the engines at the end of it?
LP: Throws a rope for the way [laughs]
HS: And the Beaufighters. You’ve mentioned the Beaufighters. They were useful aircraft in Burma and India.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Why were they so useful?
LP: Fast. Fast and quiet.
HS: Okay.
LP: Very quiet.
HS: Did you lose a lot of them?
LP: No. Not really. Not really, no. They couldn’t hear them coming you see.
HS: So it was a kind of a surprise and they were gone before —
LP: Gone. They were blowing up the railways and the shipping and you see things like that.
HS: Yes. Yes.
LP: Of course Mountbatten there was no getting the material overland then. It was all supplied from the air with the old Dax.
HS: Oh, the Dax. The American aeroplanes.
LP: Yeah. We got a lot of those about.
HS: So you were servicing the Army from the air.
LP: Yeah, and ourselves.
HS: And yourselves of course. Yes. You do, you do deserve the odd packet of cigarettes or chocolate.
LP: No. No. No, it was wonderful really because in the monsoons you can’t move you see. Everything gets stuck.
HS: Yes.
LP: And we were getting all our supplies from Dum Dum. That’s Calcutta. It was good because they came out every day you know. Threw a big canister out and that was it. You know, they put the rations in.
HS: So you didn’t starve then.
LP: No. No. We lived quite well actually.
HS: Given the conditions and the humidity.
LP: Yeah.
HS: That’s amazing. So Burma, sorry Mountbatten wanted you to continue through the monsoon.
LP: Yeah.
HS: In order to keep the pressure on.
LP: Yeah. That’s right. And it did.
HS: It worked.
LP: Yeah. Because the other didn’t. The Japs, they were in the same boat you see but they were coming towards us.
HS: Yes.
LP: We were trying to push them back.
HS: So they didn’t have the supplies.
LP: No.
HS: The system that you had.
LP: No. And you see having these Beaufighters you could go and you could blow railway bridges up where they were getting their supplies from you see.
HS: Yes.
LP: Coming up through Malaya and things like that.
HS: So they were very vulnerable then to this kind of —
LP: Yeah. Yeah. Shipping and all this you see.
HS: Yes. So how long did it take Len to win that part of the war?
LP: That part? About eighteen months I should think. Yeah.
HS: Really?
LP: That’s about all.
HS: Yes, because of —
LP: Two year.
HS: Because of the way it had been thought through.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
HS: The strategy used.
LP: Oh yeah. You’d never, you’d never win a war I don’t think by just people on their feet you know. No.
HS: No. No. No.
LP: The jungle was a frightening place.
HS: Yes. Yes, it must have been.
LP: Too many things flying about at night with headlights on.
HS: Yes. Never mind the snakes and all the other things.
LP: I didn’t mind the big snakes so much. It was the little ones that —
HS: Yes.
LP: Big snakes if you saw them and you stood still and didn’t get them cornered they would eventually go.
HS: Okay. Yes.
LP: It was if you’d got them cornered and they couldn’t get away was the —
HS: Then —
LP: Then they’d stand up and look at you [laughs]
HS: Yes. Close encounters with a snake.
LP: Yeah. Now, if you saw one you just stood still.
HS: Yes.
LP: Watch what happened, you know.
HS: Yes. Yeah.
LP: But the little Kraits you didn’t put your fingers under nothing.
HS: No. You learned.
LP: Yeah. The hard way.
HS: Did you live inside tents and things to keep the rain off or just hopeless —
LP: Well they called them Bashas out there all made of bamboo. That was if there was, if you were anywhere near a base —
HS: Yeah.
LP: You know. I mean sometimes you just fell down at night and went to sleep.
HS: Of course. You were on the move most of the time.
LP: Most of the time. Yeah.
HS: Yes.
LP: What went over you in the night we don’t know.
HS: No [laughs] However, you did end up with malaria.
LP: Oh, I’ve had that. Yeah. I had that a long time.
HS: It took a long time —
LP: Yeah. Oh, I should think three or four years before I got rid of it.
HS: Yes.
LP: When I’d come back.
HS: Yes.
LP: But —
HS: Was this common? Did most men get it?
LP: Oh yeah. A lot of people. I mean there’s too many bugs out there you know.
HS: That’s right. Yes.
LP: We saw [pause] who was the one that went out to sing. I can’t think.
HS: Vera Lynn.
LP: Vera Lynn. I saw her down the Arakan Road. Yeah.
HS: Oh, did you?
LP: Yeah.
HS: Did it cheer you all up?
LP: Yeah. Well, I mean there was no cover. We just sat in the open.
HS: Right.
LP: She sung away there but it nearly killed her.
HS: Did it? What the climate do you mean?
LP: Yeah. They had to bring her back a bit quiet.
HS: Yes. Yes. Very tough.
LP: The climate was what you were fighting.
HS: Yeah. Indeed.
LP: Prickly heat and things like that.
HS: Malaria, prickly heat.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Everything was rotten.
LP: Dysentery. Everything. Everything you could think of.
HS: And what about water?
LP: You didn’t drink that. Not without putting tablets in it or boiling it.
HS: Yes.
LP: Or something.
HS: Yes.
LP: You just didn’t.
HS: No.
LP: No.
HS: So it was a very tough, tough time.
LP: Yeah. Used to have to put two tablets I think it was in your water bottle.
HS: Yeah.
LP: And they had to be in about twenty minutes.
HS: Yes.
LP: Then you put, then you had to put two more tablets in and I don’t know but it tasted horrible.
HS: I’m sure it did. I’m sure it wouldn’t have been [pause] No.
LP: No.
HS: It wouldn’t have made a nice cup of tea.
LP: No. I don’t think it would have done.
HS: One of the things I found intriguing was that you mentioned in the book, “A Parish at War,’ that you used silk maps.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Because paper was —
LP: Oh, it would be gone in the morning. Yeah.
HS: That fast.
LP: Cigarettes went rotten in the night.
HS: So everybody was off smoking.
LP: Well, it was alright if they were in a tin but on a packet they would be mouldy in the morning.
HS: Just as fast as that.
LP: Yes.
HS: Because the conditions were just right —
LP: Yeah.
HS: For the mould to grow.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Yeah. I thought it was funny that when you got through this you went off to Madras and you were immediately given a whole new set of clothes. Jungle Greens as you called them.
LP: We were very near naked all of us when we came out.
HS: Your mothers wouldn’t have recognised you.
LP: I don’t know. They might have done [laughs] No. Your clothes didn’t last long.
HS: What was it like for you as a young man finding yourself in the eastern part of the world so different to here?
LP: Oh God. Yeah. The poverty.
HS: And you were very young.
LP: Yeah. The poverty that I just could not believe. The cruelty, the poverty, the conditions. It was —
HS: Yes. Yes. Did that strike all of you? Your first —
LP: Yeah. I think so. I think you know —
HS: Because of course today we see so much on TV. We read about it in the newspaper.
LP: Well, no, you don’t take, no, you don’t take any notice of it.
HS: In your generation that first seeing it it would have been so traumatic.
LP: The children out there half-starved and, oh dear.
HS: Yes.
LP: Terrible.
HS: Yes.
LP: My religion dropped out of the window a bit then when I first saw all of that.
HS: Yeah. I can understand that. It must have been a terrible shock.
LP: It is. Yeah. I didn’t think things went on like that you know.
HS: No.
LP: But there you are.
HS: What was, if you look back on that time what was the sort of worse job you had to do because it all sounds pretty terrible. But in terms of being an engineer in those situations what was the worst thing you had to manage?
LP: Really everything I think. Yeah.
HS: Just an accumulative effect.
LP: No. Getting water to wash. You had to wash everyday with something you know.
HS: Yes.
LP: And if you, well you just got water where you could but you must get yourself clean because if not, it’s prickly and all around there, terrible.
HS: I see.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And that would have driven you mad.
LP: Yeah. And you mustn’t drink it. You couldn’t drink the water.
HS: No. No. No. So that was the hard thing.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Just the physical side of keeping —
LP: You had to look after yourself. You couldn’t just eat something and say well —
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: You’d be dead the next day.
HS: Yes. Yes. It must have been amazing when you finally got to civilisation that you could just sit down and eat a sandwich or something.
LP: Yeah. No. You had to be a bit careful what you —
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: Because there was no hygiene out there.
HS: Did the Army teach you these things?
LP: Oh, they teach you a lot yes.
HS: Yes.
LP: Yes.
HS: To keep you alive and all that.
LP: To keep you. Oh, yeah. I mean they did do the best to look after you.
HS: Yes.
LP: But I mean it’s not easy.
HS: No. How long were you out there altogether?
LP: I reckon about three years I suppose. Getting on that way.
HS: A long time.
LP: Something like that.
HS: Yeah. Eventually the atom bomb brought the war in Asia to an end.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. That —
HS: And you were demobbed in 1946.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Coming back home after some years away. Yeah.
LP: Yeah. I don’t know. I think the worst part was leaving England.
HS: In the first place.
LP: Yeah. But once you got into another country it didn’t worry me much.
HS: You adapted —
LP: Yeah.
HS: To it.
LP: Yeah, but because we got on the Athlone Castle in the Clyde, you know, Glasgow. Then when we were sailing down the Clyde you had a lump in your throat as big as your fist sort of thing.
HS: Yes.
LP: You know, because you suddenly realise you were not home anymore.
HS: That’s right. That’s when it hit you.
LP: Yeah. You were packed like, I mean on those troop ships you were packed like sardines, you know.
HS: Yeah. No space to move.
LP: No.
HS: No space to walk about for six weeks.
LP: They put you in a hammock, sent you to sleep and then they took you out and the next bloke got in and he went to sleep and they stood you up in a corner somewhere.
HS: It’s a good job you were young and could tough it out like.
LP: Yeah. Well, yeah.
HS: And then of course in reverse you have the other thing. Coming back to the UK. Coming back to England. Adapting to a civilian life.
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: That’s again a difficult —
LP: You miss all your mates.
HS: Right.
LP: That’s what I found the harder. The chaps that you left behind out of your own village, in the local what that you knew I’ve never seen some of them ever again. I mean I don’t know, I don’t think they were killed perhaps not all of them or anything but they got scattered.
HS: They got scattered. Yes.
LP: Some I suppose perhaps married and living up north or south or somewhere but you know.
HS: Yeah. So that was tough coming from that time.
LP: Yeah. Yeah.
HS: And then finding you had to sort of start again.
LP: Yeah. I did miss them. I did miss —
HS: I can understand that.
LP: It being quiet and you know.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Because if there’s a gang of you you always sort of you know.
HS: And of course you left as a teenager if you like.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Came back as a man with many years of war experience. It’s different.
LP: You know, it was a different, well, it was an experience I never think I’d have.
HS: No.
LP: No.
HS: No. But you found a job which you said to me were the best ten years of your life.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Tell us about that.
LP: Oh, that was, that was close to ten years at the Holt Garage. I mean there was no spares and everything in this country was sort of run down you know.
HS: Of course.
LP: As long as the wheels went around on a car —
HS: Yeah.
LP: That didn’t matter to anybody. As long as the wheels went around. But the things we used to do to keep them going was nobody’s business.
HS: But all this creativity you’ve learned during the war —
LP: Yeah.
HS: Patching up aeroplanes you presumably used to patch up cars.
LP: Yeah. Well, we used to. Well, I don’t know. We used to put one tyre inside another because you couldn’t get tyres. We used to beg, borrow, steal, make, mend. It was, it was good really because you never knew what you were going to do that day, you know.
HS: Right.
LP: Everything was a challenge.
HS: Exactly. You had to invent. Use things you’d used before.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Adapt stuff.
LP: Yeah [laughs] But nobody worried. Sort of as long as the wheels went around.
HS: Yeah.
LP: They were quite happy.
HS: So what sort of vehicles at that time? We are talking what 1946.
LP: Well, there was Austins. There was Austins. There was Morris’. There was Standard. There was the old Standard Vanguard came out towards the back end. There, well once they started getting on their feet again you know. It took a few years.
HS: Yeah.
LP: It all came back really.
HS: Yes. And what about, I mean there were a lot of farms in Deddington at that time. Were the farmers, did they use your custom as well? Did you work on their vehicles?
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean before the war they used to buy American cars to sweep the hay. You know when they’d cut the crop of grass.
HS: Yeah.
LP: And they used to put, like on the front they used to buy these old big American cars because they had power and they used to put a rake on the front and scoop all this grass up.
HS: Oh, I see.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Oh that was creative.
LP: That was why the farmers moaned because they used a lot of petrol you see. Big old cars you see.
HS: Now I understand why. The ha’penny on a gallon of petrol —
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: Was significant.
LP: ‘Going to ruin us farmers.’ [laughs]
HS: Yeah. But I mean it sounds like you were sort of really creative and engineering. You weren’t just fitting bits but you were taking time to be creative.
LP: No. You had to make it.
HS: You had to make it first.
LP: You would be days making bits —
HS: Yeah.
LP: And welding bits and that but there never seemed to be that hurry you know. People just —
HS: No. You had time to do. People accepted —
LP: Yeah.
HS: That that was a job you had to work on.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Talking of welding I think you have a lovely phrase called blacksmith’s weld. Could you tell us what that is?
LP: That is because a chap I worked for he was a blacksmith in the early days of his life.
HS: At the [unclear] garage.
LP: Yes. And we, we had a high-pressure washer and a big piece blew out the side. So I made a plate, drew it all, put it on and it leaked. He said, ‘Oh, never mind boy,’ he says, ‘Clean it up,’ and he says, ‘We’ll do a blacksmith, we’ll do a russ weld on it.’ I’d never heard of a russ weld in my life.
HS: No.
LP: And he brings out this paste. I think it was salammoniac I think.
HS: Oh.
LP: Brought this paste out, put it all back together. Spread this old muck around it you know [laughs] Horrible. And he says, ‘Ah well.’ He says, ‘We’ll come back in six weeks and have a look at it.’
HS: Six weeks. Right.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And —
LP: That was it. The length of time nobody worried about time.
HS: No. No. Right.
LP: Six weeks later he came back. It was just one mass of rust. Never leaked no more.
HS: Amazing.
LP: Yeah. Blacksmith’s weld. It was —
HS: He knew about it.
LP: Oh yeah, because he was, he was quite a clever bloke.
HS: Isn’t that interesting though that it’s six weeks. Today we want instant answers don’t we?
LP: Oh yeah. Six weeks. Yeah.
HS: But he knew. He was confident that that would work.
LP: Oh yeah. I mean he just tidied it up a bit.
HS: Sure.
LP: Put a bit of paint on it and that was the end of it.
HS: Yes.
LP: Yes. Six weeks. ‘We’ll have a look at it,’ he says. That was it and it worked. It never leaked anymore. What happened was this paste that he’d put on was very corrosive and it attacked both metals you see.
HS: Oh. Okay.
LP: It attacked them and they grew together.
HS: Surfaces grew together.
LP: Grew together you see.
HS: I see. Ingenious.
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah.
HS: Now, here’s a very personal question Len because the fact that you had to adapt things and never threw anything away are you like that as well now? You never throw anything away.
LP: Oh, My God. There’s more rubbish in my place [laughs] It’s no good having one skip. You’d want about ten.
HS: Okay. So, okay you’ve never changed your practice.
LP: Oh no.
HS: You keep everything.
LP: You don’t throw nothing out.
HS: I’m sure given your interest in making things that you do find things that you’ve got.
LP: Ah, but you see if you’ve got something you can make something.
HS: This is true.
LP: But if you’ve got nothing you can’t make nothing.
HS: No. So, do you, do you know where all your rubbish —
LP: All there.
HS: You do understand. Yes. You’ve kept tabs on it.
LP: Oh yes. It’s all boxed.
HS: You can always lay your hand on things.
LP: If you come down you can see it.
HS: Yes.
LP: All boxed up —
HS: Yes.
LP: And labelled.
HS: Yeah. But I’m sure that just to go back to that era that the farmers would have, they would have had all sorts of odd problems with their machinery.
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: And you were ingenious in the way you fixed them so —
LP: Yeah. Oh yeah. I used to go around the farms welding.
HS: Yes. Yes. Just go to them and do it for them there.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Because, because then after that you had your own garage didn’t you?
LP: Yeah.
HS: In Deddington.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Archway Garage. Where the dentist is today.
LP: That’s it. Yeah.
HS: Yeah. But —
LP: That was a blacksmith’s shop.
HS: Originally a blacksmith?
LP: In the early days yeah.
HS: Isn’t that interesting that they were both blacksmith’s shops.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And have become garages.
LP: Yeah. Now, these old blacksmiths they were clever old boys.
HS: Yeah. Plenty of experience.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And tough.
LP: Yeah. The finish may not be quite up to what today’s standards but it used to work.
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: I welded one of the clappers in Deddington Church tower. I think it’s been replaced since but a chap named Bill Ivans he was at tower. He looked after the tower and you know that was about that long and you know that big. It took me all one Saturday afternoon to weld that back together and about two bottles of oxygen.
HS: Goodness.
LP: And that was there for years and years and years. Never broke.
HS: No.
LP: No. Used to do some funny jobs but they were all good experiences.
HS: Yes. Yes and I remember you saying to me that you found that the working men were always very honest.
LP: Oh yeah. Yeah. I got on well with the working class. It was the ones with titles and all the sirs and all this business.
HS: Yeah. I can imagine especially after having been in the Army.
LP: Well, they don’t pay.
HS: Amazing.
LP: One chap rung and he said, ‘I can’t start my car.’ And there was all snow on the ground. I said, so I says, ‘I’d be around in three months.’ He went through the roof.
HS: Three months why?
LP: I said, ‘You’ve owed me money for three months so —’ I says, ‘I’ll be around to start your car in three months.’
HS: Did he get the message?
LP: Oh yes. He paid because he couldn’t move.
HS: In other words you had all the power at that moment didn’t you? It took a lot to speak out like that though, Len.
LP: Well, you got used to that.
HS: Yes. Yes.
LP: Well, most of them were very good actually because farmers had a bad reputation at one time you know. ‘Can’t pay you. Got to wait until the harvest.’ And all this business but no they were very good.
HS: Yes. Perhaps they respected fellow workers who also [unclear]
LP: Yeah. Maybe, I don’t know but they were alright.
HS: Yeah. And also of course you could talk their language in the sense of understanding the machinery that they were worried about.
LP: Well, they seemed to understand the language. Yes [laughs]. They certainly did. Yes.
HS: Okay. So changing the subject while all this was going on you are of course meeting the love of your life Marjorie and having three boys, three sons.
LP: Yeah.
HS: And living, you built your own house I think.
LP: Well, I was living at the garage when I first started. Then I got a plot of land and had a, well a chalet bungalow. It was a fair bit of land.
HS: Yes.
LP: We moved in there what? Been in there forty, getting on for fifty years I’ve been.
HS: Did you design the house yourself?
LP: Me design the house? You must be joking.
HS: I just wondered [laughs].
LP: No. No. No. I got some builders to sort it all out but didn’t have time. I used to work from about seven in the morning until about ten at night.
HS: Yes. Yes. Quite. Yeah. Eventually you retired but I think that you’ve carried on with your love of cars.
LP: Well, yeah. Yeah. Well, you’ve got to carry on doing something.
HS: But now you’re doing it for love not, not the money.
LP: No. No. [unclear] over the years I’ve been doing the cars.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Been interesting too because some of them have been very old and it’s engineering before I was sort of born.
HS: My goodness me.
LP: And it’s not quite the same. The principle of car engines never changed. Not from the day it was first brought out. I mean it’s been improved a lot of course but I mean the principle is exactly the same but this last one 1907. A bit different. When you press the accelerator you went slower and when you put the brakes the brakes worked in reverse.
HS: Oh my goodness. That would take a bit of getting used to.
LP: And you didn’t like to sort of make the controls different so we had to adapt the controls to suit many other things you know.
HS: Yes. So this was a very unusual vehicle then.
LP: Yeah.
HS: It’s not according to the normal standard.
LP: I’ll take you down and show it to you one day.
HS: And this is from 1907.
LP: 1907.
HS: And what was it called?
LP: It’s called a Baby Friswell.
HS: And where was it originally built?
LP: Well, it’s half French and it’s half English.
HS: Ah. So there may have been communication problems originally.
LP: Yeah. Yeah. It’s part, the engines are De Dion which is French. The chassis is Delage. The wings and the settee, I call it a settee on wheels [laughs] that was made in England. There was only twenty made. No, it wasn’t. Two hundred made. Two hundred made and we’ve got fifty-eight. I think it’s number fifty-eight.
HS: You actually got the number. So it must be worth a lot now.
LP: It’s not mine though. It’s not mine. No. It belongs to a friend of mine.
HS: You just worked on it. Yes. Amazing.
LP: I’ve been on it what five or six years for him. He can drive up the road now.
HS: So it took you all that many years to get it right.
LP: Well, yeah. I mean not just every day.
HS: No. No.
LP: Sort of thing.
HS: But —
LP: Got a self-starter on it now. A self-starter and different brakes. Brakes were metal to metal.
HS: I can’t imagine the noise [laughs]
LP: That runs quite well. It ticks over and starts up. Got to put a starter on it. That was no mean [laughs] It took me quite a while to sort that out.
HS: Yes. I mean it took a lot of persistence to—
LP: Yeah.
HS: Find one task after another.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Needed adjusting.
LP: Yeah.
HS: What is your favourite old car?
LP: I don’t know really. I did like the old Morris Minors. I did like them because they were very reliable. They weren’t the lap of luxury —
HS: No.
LP: But very very reliable.
HS: So why was that? The engine was well built. I mean what made it —
LP: Yeah. Simple.
HS: Right.
LP: And really nothing to go wrong on them you know.
HS: Yeah. So they were kind of workhorses that you could —
LP: Yeah. They were. I had eight of them at one time used to send them out on hire.
HS: Goodness. Yeah. So no matter who drove them they still, well they were still in good condition.
LP: I never had to fetch one home.
HS: No. No.
LP: Never.
HS: No. So I can see why you would say that was a favourite car.
LP: Yeah, it was —
HS: It was so well engineered.
LP: It was. A bit of rust trouble. They used to rust a bit.
HS: Yeah. Yeah.
LP: But I mean they never let you down.
HS: Yeah.
LP: You could always get home with them.
HS: That’s quite important.
LP: Yeah. Alright they were. I liked the old Minor thousand.
HS: And so now also you showed me a clock that you’ve made carved out of wood.
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: You are doing other projects now Len. Not just the cars.
LP: Oh yeah. Wood butcher.
HS: A wood butcher. It doesn’t look like it’s butchered to me. It looks beautifully made.
LP: I’ve done two hundred now.
HS: You’ve done two hundred clocks.
LP: They’re all scattered all over the place.
HS: And, and are they all made like the one I’ve seen? In wood.
LP: No, can’t make two the same.
HS: Oh right. So it’s always going to be different. You don’t have to —
LP: No two the same.
HS: Are they all made from wood?
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: Or is it different materials?
LP: No. All wood.
HS: So does it, do you start with the wood itself then?
LP: Well, an old lump of wood. Yeah.
HS: And then decide which way it’s going to go.
LP: Yeah. Then perhaps I suspect after several days I need to throw it away because I don’t like it.
HS: You don’t like it though. Trial and error.
LP: Well, no I’ve done [pause] they’re all over the place aren’t they? I’ll get, I’ll get the unit from Sheffield.
HS: Oh yes, the actual time.
LP: Yeah.
HS: Mechanism thing.
LP: I just ring them up and they just send it to me. No trouble. A good firm to deal with. The first time I sent them, well sent an order to them I thought well, I sent them a cheque and thought I won’t get nothing for about three weeks before the cheque’s cleared and everything. It was back by return of post.
HS: Oh fantastic.
LP: Marvellous.
HS: So you were able to just get going straight away.
LP: I just, I just ring them up now. I just ring them up and say, ‘I want —’ so and so. I say, ‘I’ll put you a cheque in the post.’ And they say, ‘Alright. Fair enough.’ The last lot I ordered was on a mid-day Friday. I said, ‘The post goes out at 4 o’clock.’ I said, ‘I’ll put a cheque in the post.’ Told me how much it was and the bits turned up on Monday and a little thank you for the cheque. Can’t have better service than that.
HS: That’s, that’s really good.
LP: Yeah. They are a good, a jolly good firm to deal with.
HS: Yeah.
LP: You know.
HS: Yeah.
LP: Never had no trouble at all. Well, I’ve got to do something. I can’t just sit about.
HS: You can’t just sit back but I know that one of the things you also do is gardening. You do —
LP: Oh yeah.
HS: That’s a big part as well of not sitting about. It’s not a garden to sit in. It’s a garden to put things, dig and —
LP: Enjoy yourself.
HS: Enjoy.
LP: Yeah. You can’t. I can’t sit about.
HS: So if you can’t sit about have you thought of because you are going to be ninety-one in a few week’s time.
LP: Well, that doesn’t matter does it?
HS: No. I’m just thinking I think you’ve a project in mind for your ninety-second year you see.
LP: More clocks I expect.
HS: More clocks or something different or different, do something different with your garden.
LP: No. I don’t know. The garden is alright. I’ve got that pretty well under control. Been a bit of a nuisance this lot of wet weather because you can’t get in. I’ve put the spuds on [pause] was it Sunday? Sunday or Saturday, I can’t remember. One of them but that’s yeah you must come down one afternoon and have a look.
HS: I would like that very much. Thank you very much, Len.
LP: Yeah. Rubbish [laughs] No. I don’t throw nothing away. Nothing. It’s all put away somewhere.
HS: And you never know the day when you will need it again.
LP: No.
HS: So, thank you very much Len for talking to me about your interests and your life.
LP: No. You’ve got to have interests in life. I’ve never been used to sitting about you see.
HS: No. No.
LP: But there we go anyway.
HS: And I’d like to quote you some words you gave to me which was, ‘I’m still breathing so why worry?’
LP: Well [laughs] Yeah. Well, that’s it.
HS: That’s it.
LP: Well, there’s no good worrying.
HS: Very good philosophy.
LP: No good at —
HS: But thank you, Len. Thank you very much.
LP: It’s no good keep worrying and that. Blimey, when the old boy comes around with his old sickle and he says that’s it [laughs] you can do nothing about it so there’s no good worrying yourself to death. I gave that up long ago. Just soldier gently on. No. I’m always doing something. Somebody comes in with something. A chap came in one day with a lawn mower and, but he couldn’t start it or something. I forgot what I’d done with it. Oh, the controllers were all broken. I said, ‘Leave it. I’ll do it.’ Got around the scrap. I found another one. It’s a little bit different. It’s got a little bit different plug on it whereas I said, he said, ‘It’s better than when I had it.’ You know you can usually get around all these things. It takes a bit of time sometimes.
HS: That’s right. The ingenuity but also what you were saying is the time it takes. Not to think you’ve got to do it tomorrow.
LP: Oh no. No. That’s it.
HS: In due course these things solutions emerge.
LP: Yeah. I get a lot of the Car Club come for bits and pieces and what can I do with this and what can I do with that? Can nearly always fix them up. But there you are. It’s all interesting you know.
HS: Okay. Thank you. Thank you Len.
LP: That’s alright.
HS: Thank you very much indeed.
[pause]
HS: My thanks to Len Plumb for sharing his personal memories and his insights into life in Deddington before and after the war. My name is Hilary Smith and you’ve been listening to Deddington Discussions on Deddington on Air. Next time I’ll be talking to Bill Cowley.
LP: Oh Bill. Yeah.
HS: Until then goodbye and thank you for listening.
LP: Old Bill.
HS: Yeah.
Collection
Citation
Hilary Smith, “Interview with Len Plumbe,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed July 12, 2026, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/53775.