Interview with Leslie Turner

Interview with Leslie Turner

Leslie Turner worked as a pattern maker at Longbridge before he volunteered for the Air Force. He trained as an observer in South Africa and flew 33 operations as a bomb aimer with 10 Squadron.

2010-11-15

01:42:15 audio recording

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ATurnerLA101115

JL: It’s November the 15th 2010 and this is Julia Letts recording with Les Turner this morning with his memories of and experiences of the war. Les, can I start by getting you to give me your date of birth?
LT: Yes.
JL: And where you were born.
LT: I was born at 24 Hanbury Street, Droitwich. That’s up there.
JL: What was your date of birth?
LT: 24th of February 1922.
JL: 1922.
LT: Yes.
JL: Ok. Will you give me a little bit of a picture of your early life in Droitwich? What do you remember of it?
LT: Yes, I think so. Well, my father was a fishmonger and he had a shop in the High Street and we of course were all involved in that and he was a keen gardener and he had an allotment over the way there.
JL: What was his name, Les? What was your father's name?
LT: Arthur. Arthur.
JL: Arthur Turner.
LT: Arthur Henry Turner, and a very good bowler by the way. Played for Worcestershire.
JL: And was he Worcestershire born and bred?
LT: No. He was born in Stourbridge. He was a Black Country lad.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yes, and he came to work at the Barley Mow in Hanbury Street and the First World War broke out there and he went off to war and when he came back he met my mother and they got married.
JL: So, how on earth did he get into fish?
LT: Well, he, well I remember him starting actually when I was a very young lad. He’ got a motorbike and side car. No. He had, he had the horse and dray first of all. I used to go around with him and then he came onto a motorbike and side car. He built a box on the side of the motor bike and then he bought the shop in the High Street.
JL: And where did he get the fish from? Was it delivered from a supplier of some sort?
LT: He went to Birmingham three mornings a week and he had two lots delivered from Grimsby on the two other days. So that was the five days and one of my jobs when I was a lad was to go from the shop on a, with a truck and pick that fish up and bring it back before I went to school [laughs]
JL: Goodness.
LT: And I went to St Peter’s School then and drove.
JL: Was he the only fishmonger in Droitwich at that time?
LT: He was the only wet fishmonger. There were a fish and chip shop down the bottom of the street but they, it wasn’t the same kind of fish that was sold. They didn’t sell the fresh fish. So yes.
[recording paused]
JL: Right, Les, you were telling me a little bit about St Peters School.
LT: Yes.
JL: Can you tell me a bit more about that?
LT: Well, it was at the top of the Holloway where I lived and as I said there was a Boy’s School and a Girl’s School and there was a big high wall that divided the two between us and there was a junior school there as well and I went —
JL: I was just going to ask were you separated from the girls?
LT: Oh yes. Oh yes. We weren’t allowed to mix with the girls at all.
JL: In class as well as in the playground?
LT: We had to keep away from the wall as well at playtimes and things like that [laughs] so, oh yes.
JL: So what was it they thought that the girls would contaminate you with?
LT: I don’t know and I don’t even think we thought about it at all. I don’t think we ever wanted to go to the girls at that age anyway.
JL: It was just the way it was.
LT: Because I mean we were only there until we were fourteen years old and that was it. But what were you wanting to know about the school itself?
JL: Do you have any particular memories of school?
LT: Only the teachers probably.
JL: Were they strict?
LT: Some were very strict. Some we liked and some we didn’t like and that was when a Mr Fisher was headmaster then and you may have heard of the name Lovell. That’s the father of the lad I was in the theatre with actually and he was my master for quite a long time.
JL: What do you mean in the theatre with?
LT: When, when I’m sorry I’ve gone on a bit.
JL: You’re jumping ahead there. Yeah.
LT: I’m jumping ahead there. Yes. Yes. Yes, and but that was Mr Lovell and I knew his son later on.
JL: Oh, ok.
LT: He was my friend. He still is my friend now.
JL: Now, Les I know that you’ve been quite sporty all your life but did that start at school? Were you? Did you do a lot of sport at school?
LT: Oh yes. I was. I played a lot of football at the school itself. I’ve got photographs somewhere of the football team. But that really was the only sport that we played at that age because we, I’d moved on from that to play tennis in the park and I played tennis all my life then. That was my life, tennis was really. In fact, I finished up being president of the Tennis Club.
JL: In Droitwich?
LT: In Droitwich. Yes. Yes.
JL: Good for you.
LT: Yes, I’ll show you some pictures Iater on if you like.
JL: So, that sort of leads us on to can you paint me a bit of a picture of Droitwich in the 1920s early 1930s when you were a lad? What was it like?
LT: I don’t really know what to say here. I was in the Boy’s Brigade which was quite a lot of the lads were in it then and the girls were in the Guides and things like that. They were about so, and Droitwich it was quite a quiet place really compared with what it is now. It’s shocking now.
JL: So did everybody know everybody so to speak?
LT: Oh, pretty well. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. When the war came they had street parties and things like that you know. They all got together and mixed and had their children there. Yes.
JL: What about, you’ve mentioned the park. Where were the places that young lads like you hung out?
LT: Well, around where I lived there were fields you know which we played in. In the Holloway there’s fields over on the left-hand side and a wood in which we spent a lot of time there and then that field joined up the Hanbury Road with the Holloway so we were all intermingled and we were never stopped playing in there. Yes. And of course we used to play in the street as well quite a bit. Yes. Of course, there weren’t the cars and things like that.
JL: I shouldn’t think there were many vehicles at all.
LT: There weren’t. There weren’t. No. No.
JL: So you would have left school, am I right, in about 1934, ’36.
LT: Let’s see. Twenty two, thirty two, thirty six. Yes.
JL: Did you have any idea as you were going through school what your strengths were? What you wanted to do?
LT: No. No. Nothing was sorted out at the school about what you were going to do after you left school. If you passed the Eleven Plus exam you went on to Bromsgrove and I didn’t do that so —
[Recording paused]
LT: And, and so I was fourteen when I left school. Then I worked for my father for a little while because there was nothing else to do and then he had contacts and I I he got me a job at Longbridge at the Austin Motor Company. I was about fifteen then.
JL: So you didn’t want to stay in the fish trade. You weren’t going to take over.
LT: No. Hated it.
JL: Did you?
LT: No. I hated it. No.
JL: Well, tell me about that. Why did you hate it?
LT: It was just messy and you were never in charge of things and you were here, there and everywhere and running here and running there and getting nowhere. That kind of feeling you know. You weren’t going anywhere and so I started at Longbridge then. And my dad had a contact with somebody that worked up there and I got me my, I had an apprenticeship. I started an apprenticeship then.
JL: And what were you? An apprentice what?
LT: Pattern maker.
JL: Pattern maker.
LT: Engineering pattern maker.
JL: Ok.
LT: Which was quite a skilled trade.
JL: And so did you know anything about that before you started to work there?
LT: No. Other than I was good with my hands and I could do this, that and the other. I had the interview of course and I was going to Night School a bit as well then so I was kind of preparing. I didn’t know I was preparing but I was preparing my future really. And so I was there until the war broke out and I needn’t have gone into the war because I was a skilled apprentice pattern maker and all the skilled men were kept back from the war you see. And so I went on until I was about [pause] I was in the Home Guard.
JL: So you joined the Home Guard.
LT: I joined the Home Guard at Longbridge. They had a —
JL: As soon as war broke out.
LT: Yes.
JL: ’39.
LT: Yes. That’s it. Just after that. Yes.
JL: And were you told that you weren’t to join up because you were a skilled person? You were a Reserved Occupation. Or wasn’t it as bossy as that?
LT: No. No. You had the choice. You had the choice, yes. And of course it was against my parent’s wishes and all my pals had gone off to war you know and there were very few of us left. Then I decided that I wanted to fly so —
JL: Where did that come from? Do you know?
LT: I don’t know. I don’t know. No. I just, you saw all these things in the paper and things like that and you thought —
JL: So we’re just, just going back to September the 3rd 1939. Can you remember actually the announcement of war? Can you remember that day?
LT: Yes.
JL: What were you doing?
LT: Yes.
JL: That day.
LT: I don’t know but we all gathered in my, in our house and we had a radio there and they announced it then you know and we knew it was coming. I can’t remember what the feelings were then at all. No idea at all. But when I decided to go into the RAF it was quite against my parent’s wishes. They didn’t want me to go.
JL: And do you think that was anything to do with your father’s experiences in the First World War?
LT: No. I don’t think so. He said very little about that. He got wounded in the First World War and he came out in 1916 so and made up his mind he was never going back again. So he, his joke was he played on that wound.
JL: But perhaps subconsciously that was one of the reasons he didn’t want you to go in at all.
LT: That probably, yeah. Yeah. I don’t think any mother or father wanted their children to go off to war really. Yes.
JL: So it was, were the lads from home, so back in Droitwich the ones joining up or were your fellow apprentices up at Longbridge or a mixture of them both?
LT: A mixture of them both really. Yes. Yes. Yes. But if you wanted to go into aircrew it was a volunteering job you see. You volunteered for aircrew and I went down to Worcester and just did that and then from then on it had all started.
JL: And that was in 1939 that you actually signed up or —
LT: Oh no. No. No. It was 1941. About 1941 that was then. I didn’t —
JL: Ok.
LT: I was an apprentice. A young apprentice then in the Home Guard.
JL: So tell me a little bit about your Home Guard. What was your Home Guard called?
LT: Oh, I was in the Longbridge Home Guard and I was in what they called the Battle Platoon. It sounds a bit silly now but we were a platoon of Home Guard that wandered about in various places where we were needed and there was a place named [Oldham] near where they had the four engine bombers there.
JL: What? They were building them there.
LT: Building them there, yes and we on our, the nights that we were home we were shipped over to it to guard the place you know.
JL: So, how many nights a week did you have to do on Home Guard duty?
LT: Only one.
JL: One night a week.
LT: Only one. Yes.
JL: And you worked all through that night and then were expected back at work the next morning.
LT: Well, you came, you came off. You came from that duty back to the factory and in uniform and you carried on working in uniform. Yes. You just, you had, you did two hours on and four hours off.
JL: Wasn’t that exhausting?
LT: Yeah. But you’re young and everybody was doing it so it was just something you did. I —
JL: Was it, was it, well, do you recall after the Battle of Britain started and the bombing of Birmingham do you recall really terrifying occasions because they were after Longbridge weren’t they?
LT: Yes.
JL: They wanted to hit Longbridge.
LT: Yes, that’s it. Yes. Well, we, from Droitwich you could see the bombing of Birmingham you know and you would see the huge flashes going off. I was, I saw it the next day really when I went up. Like I say I was at Longbridge and then we went off there and it was pretty smoky and horrible. Yes. Yes.
JL: And did they actually hit the factory at Longbridge?
LT: Not, not on those raids. They didn’t come out. They didn’t bomb Longbridge in those raids. They were north of Longbridge actually but the city of Birmingham. But there were odd daylight raids. Little daylight raids when they, they’d sneak someone over and have a go at it you know and when that happened the sirens went and you burst off and got yourself into a shelter there.
JL: So there were shelters.
LT: No great damage was done to Longbridge.
JL: There were shelters on sight were there?
LT: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JL: I’m told that Longbridge disguised itself very well.
LT: Oh yes.
JL: From the air.
LT: Yes.
JL: In what form did that take?
LT: I’m not sure. I’m not sure. No. I know they camouflaged it to a degree but I don’t actually know what the camouflage is worth.
JL: And what was going on in Longbridge during this period? Was it taken over to make, manufacture —
LT: We were manufacturing war vehicles, you know and let’s —
JL: A mixture of war vehicles.
LT: Oh yes.
JL: Or particular.
LT: A mixture of war vehicles. Yes.
JL: And what were you pattern makers doing?
LT: We made the patterns to get the castings that made the engines. So we, from a blueprint we made that in wood so that they could put it into the sand and cast it. Obviously a very rough idea you know and it became a casting for the various things.
JL: So your job hadn’t really changed much apart from what you were now making patterns for were —
LT: No.
JL: Army vehicles.
LT: No. No.
JL: Military vehicles as opposed to civilian vehicles.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And what was life like when you were at home and your friends some of which had gone off to what turned out to be Dunkirk and didn’t come home? What was the atmosphere like in that period?
LT: I think [pause] we had our little gangs. You know what I mean. And, but there weren’t many left really. There were so many went. This is what God only knows who we wondered in the end being young like we were and reading the papers and wanting to fly and things like that you wanted to get off and join them really so —
JL: Was there a real sense of peer pressure?
LT: That’s right.
JL: Or peer support?
LT: Say that again.
JL: Peer pressure. You know your peers had all gone off to fight and you wanted to support them and be there with them.
LT: I think there was that. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean we used to go to the dances and once we got the uniforms on used to have the girls [laughs]
JL: But what about when you heard that the first of your friends had been killed? Things like that.
LT: Yeah. Well, that I remember that very well because the very first one that it happened to was a chap named Frank Rawlings and he was courting Joan and he was a very good footballer and a leader kind of. You know what I mean. And when that happened it was a shock and you suddenly realised that it was, it was terrible really. Yeah. And then it started happening to various other people that I knew. Yes. Yes.
JL: So you carried on in the Home Guard and with your apprentice job until ’41 and then you went to Worcester and signed up against your parents’ wishes. Is that right?
LT: Yes.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yeah.
JL: So what did the signing on consist of? Did you just literally get the bus into Worcester and go into the office and say —
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: Take me on.
LT: Just went into the office and tell them what you wanted, you see. Yes.
JL: And what happened at that point?
LT: At that point they told me to go back home and join the Air Training Corps and pick up as much as I could because I was going into aircrew you see.
JL: So was the Air Training Corps similar to the Home Guard?
LT: Yes. Yes. Yes. I don’t think it was so military but they did things for the Air Force and you learned signals and all those kinds of things. I can’t remember exactly what it was now.
JL: Where did you do that, Les? Was that in Droitwich?
LT: In Droitwich. Yes. Yes. Yes.
JL: In the evenings after work?
LT: In the evenings. Yes. Yes. But I stayed in the Home Guard until I was called up as well. Yes. And —
JL: How long was that, did that take you to be called up after you’d signed on?
LT: I’m not sure the exact. Not long. Not long. No. No. Weeks you know. A few weeks. And then I went to, I got called up to Air Force House in London.
JL: Do you remember that trip up to London?
LT: No. Not really. No. I know I went by train and that was it.
JL: A sense of excitement?
LT: Yeah. Well, apprehension and excitement. Yes. Very [laughs] it’s hard to explain isn’t it? There were so many other people doing it at the same time you see. You got straight in and talked to each other and that was it. Yes.
JL: So what happened after that?
LT: Then as I say they sent me back home and told me to join the ATC and pick up as much as I could on the various things which they talked about. And then I don’t think there was many weeks before I was called up and I went to the Aircrew Receiving Centre then in London and there you got your uniform and became a part of a flight of about thirty people and a corporal in charge and you just did walk, marches and walking around and military things.
JL: And that was based in London.
LT: In London. Yes. For a, for a not more than a couple of weeks it wasn’t and then I went to Initial Training Wing at Torquay and I was there for eighteen weeks and you did all the basics there and —
JL: What was that like? Was it a shock to the system or —
LT: It was, it was pretty hard training actually. A lot of, a lot of drills and things like that and getting fit. They got you fit. You were off running and they would go and lose you in the dark moor and you had to find your way back and things like that. All little exercises but it matured you up to a standard you know.
JL: Oops.
LT: To a standard.
JL: I’ll just —
[recording paused]
JL: Sorry, Les. Your book has just fallen on the floor.
LT: That’s alright.
JL: It got you ready for what?
LT: Posting to South Africa.
JL: And that came straight on.
LT: Straight after. Yes.
JL: After your eighteen weeks.
LT: Yes. After eighteen weeks we were, I went to Bristol and caught a boat there and then we built up a big convoy which, it was huge and off we went for South Africa and it was a six week trip. A six week trip. It was an old banana boat I was on and there was, I forget how many were on. There were quite a lot of people on and off we went to South Africa. We called at Freetown going down.
[phone ringing]
Do you want to answer the phone?
No. That’ll be Dot. She’ll answer the phone.
JL: So, just, just going back to getting on the ship and leaving for South Africa.
LT: Yeah.
JL: Did you know during your eighteen weeks that you would be going to South Africa or did it come as quite a surprise?
LT: It, it was either South Africa or America. One of the two. You hoped it would be America you know. As it was I was glad I went to South Africa really.
JL: And what did your family think when they found out you were going to South Africa and would probably be away for about a year?
LT: I don’t, well my mother, she, she broke down a few times you know and later on it was a heck of a job to keep it from her you know and, but that’s another tale that is.
JL: So you had to pretend you weren’t going.
LT: Well, I told her I was just going to South Africa to train. I wasn’t, there was no war down there you know. That comes from the tale. Well, there wasn’t.
JL: No, but the getting there was quite hazardous.
LT: Oh yes.
JL: And were you anxious about, I mean given what was happening in the Atlantic —
LT: I don’t think you thought about it that way. I met up with a big, Bill Turner his name was. The same name as me and he’d come out of the Army into aircrew and he knew all the ropes, you know and he said, ‘Look, when we get aboard,’ he said, ‘We’ll volunteer to go into the cook house. Into the cook house or duties that way.’ And I thought why would I do that? You know. And it was the best thing we ever did. We looked after the Officer’s Mess and we ate after them as well. And we had that all the way to South Africa and we had no other kind of duties on board to do.
JL: So he was in the know and he secured you —
LT: He was in the know. Yes. Yes.
JL: A really good position then.
LT: We were friends and he failed his exams in in South Africa and came back.
JL: Oh, frustrating.
LT: And I couldn’t catch up with him again after.
JL: So you never —
LT: He came from London.
JL: You never heard from him again.
LT: No. No.
JL: What a shame.
LT: They just faded you know. There was so much going on.
JL: So on the boat what were conditions like? Where did you sleep and where did you eat and what was it like?
LT: You were issued with a hammock which you were told to go down and you were supposed to sling this hammock at night, each night you know and oh it was terrible. And him being in the know he said, ‘Right. We’ll find a space on deck.’ Which we did. We found a space. A sheltered space on deck. We bedded down each night on deck.
JL: Nobody minded that.
LT: No. No. We were all doing it. Yeah.
JL: No. I can imagine that might be quite pleasant when you’re further south but when you’re still in —
LT: Yes, it did.
JL: Northern Europe.
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: A bit cold.
LT: Well, you worked between the two really. You could work it between the two. When it was very cold you could go down and do it the other way. But most of the time we were on deck curled up in our beds you know.
JL: And was life on board quite boring or did the time pass quite quickly?
LT: Well, it, doing what we did it passed very quickly. We were so busy and they paid us when we got down the other end. We were paid for doing a job. I didn’t know that was going to happen. It wasn’t much money like but they thanked us and —
JL: Well, every little helps.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: So you —
LT: We always had good food as well.
JL: Well, I bet.
LT: Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And you disembarked in Cape Town did you say?
LT: Cape Town. Yes. Yes. We called in at Freetown on the way down.
JL: Was that Sierra Leone?
LT: Sierra Leone, yes. And we stayed there a week. We didn’t go ashore then. Oh, we called at Gibraltar. That was it. Called at Gibraltar and so many were allowed to go ashore for the odd day. I didn’t go but, and the same with Freetown and it took six weeks altogether. Yeah.
JL: And an adventure.
LT: It was.
JL: For a young lad.
LT: Quite an adventure. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And you were what? Just under twenty.
LT: Twenty. Yes.
JL: Twenty years old.
LT: Yeah.
JL: It must have been —
LT: Yeah.
JL: I mean you couldn’t ever have hoped to have done that as a civilian.
LT: No, actually. No. I was a bit older than that. I had my twenty first birthday when I was in South Africa. That was it. Yes. Yes.
JL: So, on arrival in Cape Town was it straight down to business?
LT: Well, that’s a little story but everybody they were allowed ashore you see and the first thing they did they went and ate and ate and ate and everybody was sick and ill and things like that because the food was so poor on the boat. It wasn’t for me because I’d got this good job you know and it caused a lot of trouble really. Yeah.
JL: So when you disembarked were you straight into some sort of a barracks or camp for the night?
LT: Yes, went to, went to a holding camp for a few days and then off we went to a training place which where, which was an aerodrome and it was all set out. We didn’t fly for a little while.
JL: While everyone was still being ill from over indulgence.
LT: Oh well. That sorted itself out slowly you know.
JL: Can you remember the name of the, the camp you were moved to after the holding camp?
LT: I’ve got it down somewhere.
JL: Don’t worry. It doesn’t matter.
LT: Pretoria. [unclear] East London. That was it. 48 Air School I went to in East London.
JL: East London.
LT: Yes.
JL: Ok.
LT: And that was when the proper training started. Yes.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: And at this point I’m trying to sort of get a picture of all you young men who were all training to be aircrew. Did you have a particular role or did you, were you moving towards being a navigator or a bomber or whatever?
LT: I was, I was training as an observer which is a bomb aimer navigator you see. Combined with you’d came back on the twin engine aircraft like Mosquitoes and things like that. And I went to, I passed all my exams except one. One, and they gave me a choice. They said, ‘You can either wait and take the exam again.’ They didn’t worry about you at all, ‘But it could mean about six weeks delay,’ you see, ‘Or you passed all your other exams. You can go up to Johannesburg where, go to Johannesburg and become a bomb aimer.’ Of course, I’d done, I’d done the gunnery course. I’d done the bomb aiming course. I’d done quite a bit of the navigation course but I’d failed this one exam.
JL: To make you an observer.
LT: I thought, right. So I decided to be a bomb aimer.
JL: Ok. So just going back over that, Les. When, at what point did you decide you wanted to be an observer? Was that in initial training in the UK?
LT: Oh, that was that was from the start that was.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: What was it about being an observer that caught your imagination?
LT: Just, just the aircraft that you would be able to fly on. You’d be on the smaller aircraft you see rather than the big four engine bombers.
JL: I’m with you. So, the smaller aircraft. How many crew would there be in? Just a pilot and an observer?
LT: A pilot and an observer, yes. Yes.
JL: Just the two.
LT: Well, that would be like a Mosquito.
JL: Yeah.
LT: Or one of those. Yes.
JL: So you’d already decided at this point that you liked the look of the smaller aircraft.
LT: Yeah.
JL: You wanted to go off and —
LT: That’s right. Yes.
JL: Ok.
LT: But then I, I wanted to come back home and they were calling up. They told us they were calling for these bomb aimers in Bomber Command you see because they were building up the raids and things like that.
JL: So, now talk me through what training you had to do in South Africa and how long each, each course lasted. Things like that.
LT: How could I say?
JL: Did you have a particular —
LT: There was so much you did in the classroom which was the navigation side of it initially and you did quite a few things on the ground before you and then, you went and flew in Oxfords or Ansons. Airspeed Oxfords or Ansons which were a twin-engine plane like. They were the old bombers and there was the pilot who was a pilot. It was his aircraft, you know and there were two of you usually. You sat side by side and you did a navigation exercise or a bombing exercise or did these various exercises and you were assessed on them with, sort of from the paperwork and the results or the bombing results or gunnery results and things like that. Yes.
JL: Would that be almost on a daily basis?
LT: Yes.
JL: You were going out.
LT: Oh, yes. Yes.
JL: Doing the flight.
LT: Yes.
JL: Coming back in.
LT: Yes.
JL: And were you always with the same pilot in the same aircraft?
LT: No. No. No. No. No, you weren’t always the same pilot. There was a lot of going on. You know what I mean.
JL: Did you have —
LT: I don’t know —
JL: Sorry. Carry on.
LT: I don’t know how many aircraft there were now but there were quite a few and they were all very busy.
JL: Like dozens or —
LT: Dozens. Yes. Yes. Yes.
JL: All lined up on the airfield.
LT: That’s right. Yes. Yes.
JL: And did you live on the airfield? Were there barracks on the airfield?
LT: Yes. Oh yes.
JL: So did you get out of camp much? Did you have much interaction with the local population?
LT: I went to, people invited the aircrew out to their farms and things like that so you put your name down if you wanted to go. I only went on one and it was wonderful. I went on a pineapple place where they grew pineapples and things like that and you were there for forty eight hours actually over a weekend and they loaded you up with these pineapples when you came back and you brought them back to the base and distributed them.
JL: It was like a sort of exeat from —
LT: Oh yeah.
JL: Bombing life. A bit of normality.
LT: It was lovely. Yes. Yeah. But you, you didn’t get many chances to go [laughs] But it was, it was hard work. You didn’t hang about at all. No.
JL: And did you make some very close friends during this period?
LT: Yes. But [pause] well we were quite close friends while you were there but you knew that when you left you’d split up to the four winds you know. That’s the way it was. You didn’t kind of write to them after and things like that. There was too much going on. Yeah.
JL: This is probably a difficult question to answer but did you, did you feel, did you want to get on and to get back?
LT: Yes.
JL: And be part of the war.
LT: Yes.
JL: You had a real sense of —
LT: Yes.
JL: Urgency about it.
LT: Yes. I never thought of the other side I don’t think. There were moments when I did but, and then I was posted up to Johannesburg and a big holding camp there and we, we were made sergeants. We were made up to sergeant and got our wing and then we were, went back to Cape Town after a while, all over a period you know and got on another convoy and came home.
JL: So the period in Johannesburg was further training.
LT: No. It was a holding camp. It was just to make you up to sergeant. You had your Wings Parade and that kind of thing. It was quite huge. Yeah.
JL: It was just a great big airfield up there that you were based at for that —
LT: No.
JL: Camp.
LT: No. It was like a holding camp really.
JL: Right. So there was no —
LT: No air, no flying anywhere. No.
JL: No aircraft up there at all.
LT: No.
JL: So you were just sent up by what? By train to Johannesburg.
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: Just for the ceremony part of —
LT: And then you were posted home.
JL: Oh, ok.
LT: And they took over then.
JL: And the convoy home was that much the same as the —
LT: Pretty well the same. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And did you elect to do the [laughs] do the cooking again for the Officer’s Mess?
LT: Didn’t get a chance [laughs] no. But it, you knew what to expect then really. It wasn’t too bad. I remember the one going down but the one coming back is is faded now. It was different and I was a sergeant as well. Yes.
JL: I bet you were pleased to get back to the UK and see family and friends again.
LT: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
JL: Because you’d been away for the longest time that you had ever been away.
LT: Yes. Nearly a year. Yes. Yes.
JL: So what date are we now? I’m trying to work out. It would be about 1943 coming up to ’44 wouldn’t it?
LT: Three, six weeks by sea, calling at Freetown, Gibraltar. November the 17th ’43.
JL: Yeah.
LT: That’s when I —
JL: And did you have any idea during the time you were in South Africa what was happening in the war in Europe?
LT: Not really. No. Not really. No. No.
JL: Did you have a sense that you were, there was a build up to what would be an invasion and that you would be a part of that?
LT: I don’t think we thought like that. I think our training was so intense all we were bothered about was the kind of aircraft we wanted to get on when we got home you know and the kind of squadron we’d like to be on [laughs]
JL: And you couldn’t choose that.
LT: Not really. No. No. I came back to, where are we? Moreton Valence, Worcestershire. I went down there and did a bombing course. That was it. On Oxfords. The Old Airspeed Oxford, you know.
JL: You’ve mentioned more than once though this want to get on a particular aircraft.
LT: Yes. Yeah.
JL: So talk me through the different aircrafts and why you wanted a particular one.
LT: Yeah. Well, we knew that we were heading for a four-engine bomber and the main thought was Lancasters you see and the second one was Halifaxes and I don’t think anybody ever thought that’s that really. For four engines anyway.
JL: But did you have a preference? Lancasters or Halifaxes.
LT: Not really. No. No. It just happened. I just know. Then I went to an Operational Training Unit then and met my crew in Forres in Scotland.
JL: So at this point had you been given a squadron?
LT: No. No.
JL: Ok.
LT: No. We were still, we were still, we crewed up there and we became a crew.
JL: And obviously that’s going to be an incredibly important part of your training because you were now the team that was going to stick together through —
LT: Yes, and they threw you all into a big room and told you to sort yourself out as best you could because there was no other way of doing it really and it’s a wonderful way of doing it.
JL: So what do you mean by that?
LT: You look. The navigator looks for a good skipper, you know. The bomb aimer looks for a good skipper and the bomb aimer also looks for a good navigator because he understands it and you are part of the navigation team. So you intermingled.
JL: So there was a huge room full of —
LT: Yeah. Yes.
JL: Various persons, various navigators.
LT: Yeah.
JL: Various bomb aimers.
LT: That’s right. Yes.
JL: And you just went around chatting.
LT: Yeah.
JL: And see who you—
LT: Yeah.
JL: Struck up a cord with. That sounds amazing.
LT: It is and it works. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: So how many crews did there end up being at Forres?
LT: I don’t know. Probably about a dozen crews.
JL: And it all worked out.
LT: It all worked out yes.
JL: You found your —
LT: Yes. Yes. Yes, and they were all in little groups. It all kind of, it was amazing.
JL: It sounds like the school gym. You know, ‘Do you want to come in my team?’
LT: It is. Yes. Something like that. Yes. Yes. It worked.
JL: And so will you tell me about your crew then? Obviously quite special people to you.
LT: Oh yes.
JL: Right.
LT: I don’t, I haven’t kept in contact. Only with the wireless operator and he’s gone now. My skipper. He was a mining engineer he was and a mining engineer and he’d been out to America as a pilot, you know and he’d come back to do a tour of ops. A good looking guy you know. And the navigator was a chap named Jonny [Horry]. He’d got a big black moustache and he was [pause] I’m just trying to think of his job. Anyway, it doesn’t matter. He, they were just standing there and I went over. It’s a memory that sticks with you, you know. We introduced ourselves you know and I told them that I’d been on the navigation course as so the navigator was interested that we team up with the right people and so the pilot and the navigator and the bomb aimer started it off you see. The gunners, they were just wandering around really. They were gunners and that was it so they had to be asked really.
JL: And how many gunners were in your crew?
LT: Two.
JL: Two.
LT: A mid-upper gunner and a rear gunner.
JL: And anyone else? What about a bomber? Is a bomb aimer and a, the bomb aimer is the bomber.
LT: Yes.
JL: So you are the person who —
LT: You take over the bombsight.
JL: Yeah.
LT: In the nose. And you’re also part of the navigation team you see.
JL: Yeah. Ok.
LT: Yes.
JL: So we’ve got the skipper, the navigator, the two gunners and the bomb aimer.
LT: Yes.
JL: Five.
LT: Yes.
JL: And that’s the crew.
LT: No. There was the flight engineer but he came later. He came later. He joined. It didn’t matter with him in the training you know. So who have we missed out? The pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator.
JL: Oh.
LT: Two gunners. What’s that? Six is it?
JL: Yeah.
LT: That’s it. And seventh is the flight engineer.
JL: Yeah. It was the wireless operator we missed out.
LT: Wireless operator. Yes. Yes. He was my mate. Jock.
JL: So, on this first night in this big hall somewhere in Scotland you got together and were then together for the next couple of years.
LT: That’s it. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
JL: So what then happened on your Operational Training in Forres? What did you actually do on a daily basis?
LT: Mainly navigation exercises and getting used to the aeroplanes and things like that. For a start off we didn’t have our skipper. We had, they had pilots take you up and then you did cross country exercises.
JL: And were you in a Halifax at this point?
LT: No. No.
JL: What were you in?
LT: We were in a Whitley.
JL: In a Whitley.
LT: A twin-engine Whitley. There was Wellingtons and Whitleys. They were the twin-engine bombers and the Halifax and the Lancaster took over from them. So you trained in those to go in those.
JL: Were they quite similar?
LT: Smaller of course. Slower. But yeah, pretty well the same. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: So what were the conditions like in the plane? Actually inside the plane.
LT: Well, there was no kind of softness about it at all. My job, my job if like, you talk about the skipper, sits in his seat all the time, you know. My job I was a general joe. I was a second pilot so I had to do some flying there. I did link training as well. And when we took off the skipper would, you’d start going down the runway and ease the throttles up and I’d follow him up you see. You’d got a heavy bomb load on so at one point he wanted to get his two hands on the stick you see. So he’d shout, ‘Ok,’ you see and I’d hold the throttles like that and he’d get his stick and pull back. Then I pressed those out and set them to a certain amount of revs and locked them and that was my job. Part of my job.
JL: So you were sort of a co-pilot in a way.
LT: Yes. Yes. It was quite an interesting —
JL: And you sat next to him.
LT: Next. No.
JL: Or one behind him.
LT: Only on, only on take-off and landing.
JL: Ok.
LT: Then you had, you went down and became part of the navigation team then.
JL: So you had to sort of squirrel your way back through the, the plane.
LT: Oh, it was easier than that.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yes. Much easier than that. You dropped down on to the steps. Walked down past the wireless operator and then Jonny was sat there. He was our navigator and a long thing and I used to sit by the side of him and I worked at what they called an H2S navigation aid and I kept a track plot on my, and he, he would navigate on the Gee. He’d got Gee so he was getting position lines for navigation because you couldn’t see anything at night could you? And then so I was part of the navigation team and we used to swap results you know. Sometimes he needed me. Sometimes he didn’t.
JL: Was it high concentration all the time?
LT: Pretty well. Yes. Yes. But and then you came within sight of the target which is usually flashes all over the sky at night and then I had to go down, set the bombsight, select all the bombs, there was a switch for each bomb position you know and the bomb load then. You carry three cans of incendiaries in each wing at six cannon incendiaries and fifteen five hundred pounders. That was a bomb load that was but it varied on the target. Sometimes you’d go on mining trips and things like that you see and you go down and select that, you know and then you’d stay down there and look at this mess coming up at you. And then there were master bombers at the target who dropped flares and he’s going around and saying, ‘Overshoot the red, boys.’ So and so. So and so. Various instructions which you understood.
JL: And this was being relayed to you from the wireless operator.
LT: No. From a master bomber who was flying down below.
JL: How did you hear or know what he was telling you to do?
LT: Over our, our my, over the intercom.
JL: Right. So —
LT: All the crew could hear it.
JL: And so all of the planes had an intercom.
LT: Yes. They’d all got —
JL: Really? I didn’t realise that.
LT: Oh yes. Yes.
JL: So, you could, you, could you have responded to somebody in another plane?
LT: Yes. Yes. Oh yes.
JL: Right. Ok. And how many of you were flying? How many bombers were flying together?
LT: Oh, that varied as well. There were thousand bomber raids weren’t there? A thousand bomber raid would be in three flights and they would be at three, various. The lower flight goes in first and then the next one comes in second and the high one comes in third and, but usually about five or six hundred bombers.
JL: So, we’ve, we’ve sort of leapt ahead actually because we’re probably talking about operations now.
LT: Yes.
JL: But you were training to do all this.
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: With your particular flight crew.
LT: Yes.
JL: In Forres. Still weren’t based with a squadron.
LT: No. We, we, oh no we didn’t go on the squadron until we had to go on to heavy conversion first of all.
JL: Heavy conversion.
LT: Heavy conversion. We went. We’d done the Whitleys and we flew as a crew and we did various exercises and then we went on to a Heavy Conversion Unit which was Halifax 2s they were. They weren’t Halifax 3s. They were Halifax 2s. They’d got a different type of engine and, but they were the same aircraft and we did quite a few exercises on those which acclimatised all our jobs to the real thing. And then when we’d finished that we got posted to a squadron.
JL: So all of that time was in Forres. Was the conversion, the heavy conversion in Forres?
LT: No.
JL: So you’d moved by that point.
LT: We’d moved. Scotland. I went to a place called [pause] where are we? Crewed up. Acaster Malbis in Yorkshire.
JL: Ok.
LT: And we went on Halifax 2s there but on the conversion this was. And then on June the 30th I went on 10 Squadron. That’s when I started.
JL: June the 30th. And we’re now in ’44.
LT: ’44. ’44, yes.
JL: So, so hang on. Let me get my bearings. D-Day has now been and gone.
LT: Gone. Yes. Been and gone. Yes.
JL: So do you remember that happening?
LT: Yes.
JL: And the reporting back and did you feel you wanted to be part of it?
LT: Oh. When D, we didn’t know D-Day was happening at all. I was flying that day and didn’t know it was actually happening and most of the people up north didn’t even know there was an invasion going to happen. It just happened D-Day did. It was a fantastic operation. I tell you the amount of stuff that went down there.
JL: And you were just on a training exercise.
LT: Yes.
JL: That day.
LT: A training exercise that day and we didn’t find out and when we got down they said, ‘We’re going to bomb you up.’ ‘What for?’ They said, ‘Well, there’s the invasion has started and you’ll stand by in case there is an emergency.’ And that was it. We just thought cor blimey, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Didn’t know anything at all about it at all. But I didn’t go. We didn’t go. They took them all off and we carried on after.
JL: And then in June you —
LT: My —
JL: Went to 10 Squadron.
LT: Yes. June I went to 10 Squadron. Yes.
JL: Why 10 Squadron? Do you know how that was picked ?
LT: No.
JL: Or you were picked for them?
LT: No. No. No, it was just if, if the squadrons had got to be [pause] you do what they needed. Somebody had been shot down or something you’d got to take their place really. That’s what happened.
JL: And where was 10 Squadron based?
LT: That was at Melbourne in Yorkshire. That’s just north of York that is. That is. Yes. It was a place we were able to get down to. York.
JL: So —
LT: I was there from December the 22nd until April the 6th and I completed thirty three operations then in that time.
JL: Right. We ought to talk about that next then really. What was the, can you remember the first of those operations?
LT: Yes.
JL: And what it felt like suddenly to be doing it for real after all these years of training.
LT: Yeah. I, we all said the first operation was the one that stuck in our mind and it was a night op and it was, where was it? [pause] Pass me that book and I’ll tell you.
JL: I’m just passing Les his red logbook which has all his flights that he’s ever done, training and operations listed in it and he’s just looking up where his first operational flight was to.
[pause]
LT: Bottrop. It wasn’t the first one. No. We went, I beg your pardon we went to a place called Taverny which was a troop support thing. It was a short trip. And then we went to Caen. This was when the invasion was taking place and we did support bombing then and —
JL: So, this was after D-Day and —
LT: Yes.
JL: Right. Ok.
LT: That was it.
JL: So, what’s the date of that?
LT: That was July the 18th.
JL: Ok. So it was just a few months after, after D-Day.
LT: Yeah. They were still fighting though weren’t they before they got, kind of got out.
JL: Absolutely.
LT: Yes. The Falaise Gap. Remember the Falaise Gap? I went to the Falaise Gap when it was a ten miles wide and we bombed down through the centre and we trapped all the Germans in the, in the big gap they were trying to get out of. It was like a pocket. Yes. It’s on that one. But the one I was, was Bottrop on the Ruhr and it was black you know and you kind of approached the target and you knew and then suddenly you’d see all these flecks in the sky and they were all over you know and it looks forever as though nothing could ever get through it. And then as you got nearer it got less but you got bumped about, you know what I mean? And that was, that was a real trying thing.
JL: What, what was your feeling trapped inside the aeroplane seeing all this going on around you?
LT: Very very apprehensive. Hang on tight. Said a few prayers probably and and then just got on with it. You know what I mean? Yes. And then you, you, I took over telling the skipper what to do on the bombing run and it was, ‘left. Left. Steady. Centre. Too low.’ Yeah. And, ‘Bombs gone.’ Right. And then you could, you could feel the aircraft and you’d got to fly straight and level for so many seconds after so that in theory you, everybody had got a camera underneath and it took a picture of what happened on the ground. At night time it wouldn’t but that was what it was for because you did daylight raids and the photographs came in handy then.
JL: So the photograph could show you what, what you had hit. Could you actually see? Was there anybody who could see from the aircraft?
LT: No. No.
JL: So you didn’t actually know after you’d dropped the bombs.
LT: No.
JL: What had happened.
LT: No. No.
JL: It was only when you got back that you could.
LT: That’s it. You flew straight and level for so long and then the skipper would say, ‘Ok. Here we go.’ And you’d feel the aircraft turning then and then you started to feel a bit easier. But it was all still happening around you know and then you kept your fingers crossed and [laughs] but everybody was doing a job, you know.
JL: So can I ask a couple of sort of questions about routine? You were based in Yorkshire.
LT: Yes.
JL: Just above York you said. So it was quite a long flight to get even to the coast of France.
LT: That’s right.
JL: So how long would you be sort of sat there trundling along until any action happened?
LT: Well, you, there was a concentration point first of all, you know. Have you ever heard of Beachy Head?
JL: Yeah.
LT: That was a famous concentration point for Bomber Command that was.
JL: So, do you mean that’s where all the bombers would —
LT: That’s it. All the squadrons —
JL: Would get to —
LT: Would meet there at a certain time.
JL: And would you circulate there?
LT: No. No. No. No. You had to navigate and the navigator and the pilot worked that out actually and so that we would get to Beachy Head at exactly the right time.
JL: So if you were a bit early you would just fly a bit further?
LT: Fly a bit further. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
JL: How amazing. So everybody would come together at the concentration point.
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: And then off you’d go.
LT: You’d set course then. So all at that point theoretically in daylight it was you could see but at night it really was, but you could see them all around you. Yeah.
JL: Well, there must have been accidents. People crashing in the dark.
LT: Yeah. Never saw one but I know it happened. Yes. but it wasn’t something that happened because theoretically you should all have been going the same direction at the same time.
JL: And talking of crashes and things were you briefed and trained as to what might happen if you did crash land in France?
LT: Oh [laughs] yes. Yes. Yes, we were. Yes. And you [pause] you carried so much money in your pocket. Usually a couple of pound. And you did your parachute drill back in the hangar and what you were told really was to try and get away when you dropped down or contact French people or who it was because in Germany it was just too bad. But nobody could really tell you exactly what to do. Yeah.
JL: And if you thought about it too much you would have —
LT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was very lucky. I was very lucky.
JL: So what was the life expectancy of flight crew in that period of the war?
LT: Well, they say that only thirty three percent came out unscathed. Only thirty three percent of flight crews came out unscathed so you can work that out.
JL: And did, was that ever on your mind as you were on your operations?
LT: No. I don’t think so. No.
JL: You just had to get on with it.
LT: No. You just got on with it. Yeah.
JL: So we’ve mentioned the particular night flight in the Ruhr that you —
LT: Yes.
JL: Recall so vividly. Were there any others that you can particularly recall of the thirty three operational flights that you did?
LT: Yeah. I went to Munster on a daylight raid because the Americans were were doing daylight raids all the time and then it came that they needed more backup in the daylight on various targets. So we were, we started formation flying. It was a bit chaotic but we did do it. Yes. And we went to Munster and Fighter Command could only support you to within so many miles of the target you see and so for a short while we were without fighter cover and the flak was terrible. Yes. It was terrible and we got hit twenty five times.
JL: What is flak exactly? Is it —
LT: Pieces of shrapnel.
JL: Being chucked up.
LT: Yes.
JL: Into the air.
LT: And by one little tale that I’ve got about that raid was I was laid down doing the bombing run. We did the bombing run and all this kind of happening you know and you could hear little clicks and the navigator kicked my foot and I turned around and he was stood up and there was a big hole up above him. You know what I mean and he went like this and I thought oh my God. And anyway that was that and when we got back we we’d been hit twenty four times. Yes.
JL: But your plane —
LT: And we lost forty other aircraft that day. Yes.
JL: But your plane was ok even though —
LT: Yes.
JL: It had a whacking great hole in it.
LT: Yes. yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And was that due to the skill of the pilot getting you back?
LT: Yes.
JL: Or was it just —
LT: And another point, another point somebody shouted to the mid-upper gunner is he alright and he got no answer. Well, I was the general Joe and skipper said, ‘Go back and see what you can find.’ So you strapped the portable oxygen bottle on and went back and he was, he was like this in his turret you know.
JL: Looked unconscious.
LT: And I thought oh God he’d been hit, you know and there was, there was a hole in his turret. Anyway, I got to him. I pulled him down and he moved. He moved. And what had happened that we reckon was a piece of shrapnel had gone in and ricochet around and bobbed him on the head like that and he fainted we think. Yes.
JL: But he was ok.
LT: He was ok. Yeah.
JL: Lucky man.
LT: Yeah. He’d got this bump on his head. Yeah. Well, that’s just a tale. Yeah.
JL: But you must have had a tremendous sense of looking after each other.
LT: Oh yes. Yes. Yes. We were. we were a wonderful band we were. We went everywhere together when we were there. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: How much did you know what you were actually bombing? What you were actually doing?
LT: Oh, every bombing raid you went on you reported to the briefing room. All the crews did and they’d have the intelligence officer and the bombing officer and the gunnery officer and they each gave a talk, you know and they’d tell you why you were going. Half of it I didn’t believe. And what difference it would make if it was a success. It was a boost. Boost. And it happened every time.
JL: I’m interested in that.
LT: You got used to it. Yes.
JL: When you say half of it you didn’t believe. So you were well aware that this was a bit of propaganda.
LT: Yes.
JL: To get you onside.
LT: He comes on all jolly you know and does his job. it’s a job you’ve go to do. Make us feel alright. But when you’ve done a few ops you started to feel —
JL: You become a bit cynical.
LT: Yeah. It’s all going to happen when you get there.
JL: So did you ever think for example when you were off to Munster about the people on the ground? Or did you just have to block that out?
LT: You’d got to block that out. It’s a terrible terrible thing and I can’t explain how I feel. But you have to shut it all out. It’s a terrible terrible thing. Yes.
JL: When you got back from a trip like that what, and you landed safely maybe others didn’t but you had what was the feeling then? I mean you must have been such on an adrenaline high still. Or were you just exhausted?
LT: No. You, you went, when you landed you got down to the debriefing room first of all and you got debriefed you see and there was drinks as well and you always had a good tot which helped quite a bit really. And then if it, depending what time it was you know you either go to the Mess or you’d go to bed and that was it.
JL: Would you have any —
LT: You were, we were altogether in the same billet like. We always lived together. Except the skipper.
JL: Were you allowed off? Off the camp for some, some down time whenever you had a night off.
LT: Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We went down to York. We used to get down there. Pocklington we used to go to. To the pubs there.
JL: So, how much down time so to speak did you have?
LT: Varied. Varied a terrific amount. Terrific variation. Sometimes you’d go quite a long time without doing an op. Yeah.
JL: Quite a long time being what? A couple of weeks or —
LT: Yeah.
JL: Longer than that?
LT: No. No. No. It wouldn’t be a couple of weeks. It might be a few days. Yes. Unless the weather was bad or anything like that and you —
JL: And if your plane had been hit as yours was on that Munster raid would you then just be transferred into another plane? Or would you wait until your was fixed?
LT: We’d usually wait until it was fixed. Well, it depends how bad it was really. I see on here I’ve got the letters of the aircraft. We were allotted to X for X-ray. Oh God. We were allotted to X for X-ray but we were the standby crew. There was an A crew and a B crew you see. Now, the A crew had the choice of the particular aircraft and if they were flying that night you had to go in another plane.
JL: So why was there an A crew and a B crew?
LT: You’d be allotted to, to a plane.
JL: What made an A crew an A crew and a B crew a B crew? Was it just how it was picked that night?
LT: No. Just how many operations you had done. The more operations you had you see. We were allotted to X for X-ray. We hardly flew in X for X-ray and then somebody would get shoved down there probably.
JL: So X for X-ray is the name of the —
LT: That’s the letter on the side of the aircraft.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yes. XXX.
JL: So the flights that you’ve done which don’t have an X by them —
LT: Yeah.
JL: Are when you were in a different —
LT: Yeah.
JL: Aircraft.
LT: Yes. We’d have been the A crew there and there would have been somebody secondary to us you see. But we’d always had the choice of that aircraft but, and when you start you are always second aren’t you so you don’t get the choice.
JL: So did you have favourites of aircraft?
LT: Oh, we loved X X-ray. We thought that was a good aeroplane.
JL: Now, why was that? Was that because it was a lucky one or was it something about it that —
LT: No. You just, we just liked it. I can’t explain it. We were always glad. ‘X-ray? Oh good.’ You know. Yes. And we were friends with the ground crew as well you see.
JL: Well, they were a very important part of your team weren’t they?
LT: Yes. They were. Yes. There’s a picture of us with our ground crew.
JL: So how many ground crew would you have had?
LT: Three.
JL: And what were their titles or their roles?
LT: Oh, they weren’t much rank. Probably leading aircraftsmen or something like that you know but they were allotted to the plane.
JL: So they —
LT: And they looked after it.
JL: And they would always stay with that plane.
LT: Yes.
JL: So there was a ground crew for —
LT: Yes.
JL: X for X-ray.
LT: Unless it got shot down and then they would get allotted to the next one that came in. Yeah.
JL: And did you socialize with them as well? Were they part —
LT: Yeah.
JL: You lived with them and slept with them and —
LT: Well, we could invite them in on a Sunday night. [Hello darling]
Other: Hello.
JL: Shall we just pause for a sec?
[recording paused]
JL: We’ve just had a little bit of a break and I wanted to ask you Les a little bit more about 10 Squadron and some real practical bits and pieces like can you remember what your uniform was?
LT: Well, we, we, you mean when we were on the squadron?
JL: When you were on the squadron.
LT: We wore battle dress.
JL: Which was what? What did it consist of?
LT: Trousers and, blue trousers and [pause] the same as the khaki Army thing only in blue really.
JL: What did you have? Did you have flying jackets? What did you have to keep you warm in the aircraft?
LT: Oh. Now, the flying material was all kept in a special area and you had a bin. What did they call it? A locker. You had a locker of your own and all your things in your locker and you’d got the key. So whenever you went on an op you went to briefing first. Then you went off to a meal which is well known to everyone how well aircrew used to eat [laughs] We did eat well. And then eventually the time would come when we’d got to go and get dressed. Dressed for the op you see which was all fun. We all wore the underclothes. The keep warm underclothes and you can imagine some of the antics they got up to in those really.
JL: So these were sort of Long Johns.
LT: Silk lined. Yes.
JL: Yeah.
LT: I got my dad a set. Well, he wore his forever. Yeah. And then when we were dressed we’d got to get out to the air, the aircraft you see and in time a vehicle would pull up and shout so and so, so and so and you’d pile out and get into the vehicle and they’d take you out to the aeroplane. And there were certain checks you did and it was just a case of settling down and getting yourself in position and all that, you know.
JL: And how long would that period be from briefing to in the air? Are we talking a couple of hours?
LT: Could be. Could be. Perhaps not a couple of hours perhaps. No. But it could be some time depending on what was happening you know and —
JL: And just going back to changing. Getting your stuff out of the locker. On top of your, you had your silk undies and then your flying suit.
LT: My flying suit. Yes.
JL: And [unclear]
LT: No. No. You had your uniform on then.
JL: Right.
LT: You had a uniform over the top of your undies and then you’d get a top suit as well. It depends. The gunners, they had heated suits they plugged in you know and the mid-upper had a heated half down to his waist you see to keep him warm. But the rear gunner, he had a heated suit all over to keep him because it was pretty cold back there.
JL: Which plugged into the aircraft somewhere.
LT: Yes. Yes. Yes. That plugged into the aircraft. Yeah.
JL: So it had wires or something running through it. Heating elements plugged in.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. It was all electrical. Yes.
JL: I’ve never heard of that.
LT: Haven’t you?
JL: No. But you didn’t have a heated suit.
LT: No. No. No.
JL: Because you had to move around.
LT: I moved around. Yes. Yes.
JL: So what did you have?
LT: Quite a lot [laughs] scarves and, well you got all your underclothes. Then you’d got you’re your uniform on top of that and then you’ve got your parachute harness and things like that on. You kept that on all the time and you wrapped yourself up as best you could really with scarves and things like that.
JL: So did you feel a bit like a Michelin person?
LT: A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. No. It wasn’t too bad really.
JL: And what about on your head? Did you have a flying helmet?
LT: A flying helmet. A flying helmet. Yes.
JL: And goggles?
LT: And goggles. Yes.
JL: And big thick gloves or —
LT: Yes. Yes. I had. Of course, you when you came to do the bombing run the gloves had to come off because we hadn’t got the little switches and things like that to play with you know. And of course if you were helping the navigator because in a Halifax they had two navigational aids. The one was called Gee which they’d send out position lines from base you know and this thing picked them up and the navigator piddled about like and eventually got a position line. And I was on H2S which is that big bulge underneath on a Halifax and I could get a picture of the ground actually and so I could get fixes and I did a track plot see and we compared whether we were. So it was a backup for, for the navigator really. Yes.
JL: Did you use landmarks as navigational aids much?
LT: No. No.
JL: You always hear about the German bombers used to use the [seven] as a navigational aid.
LT: Oh yes.
JL: Did you use landmarks on the ground?
LT: No. No. No. The navigation was quite good and it took you to the target you know. And then when you got to the target you were being looked after by the master bomber. Pathfinders or master bombers went in first, marked the target and then they were the master bomber flying down underneath talking and saying, ‘Aim two hundred yards to the right of the reds.’ Or the greens, or the blues or something. It was pretty accurate really.
JL: And the master bomber was a particular role.
LT: Oh yes.
JL: You couldn’t be the master bomber.
LT: He was, no.
JL: One day.
LT: Well —
JL: No. I don’t. What I mean is they didn’t just pick a crew who today is the master bomber.
LT: Oh no. No. No. They were, they were part of the Pathfinding —
JL: Squadron.
LT: Squadrons. Yes. Yes.
JL: Right. And that was a particular squadron of Pathfinders.
LT: Yes. Oh yes.
JL: And master bombers.
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: Who were trained in a slightly different way.
LT: That’s it. Yes. Yes.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yes.
JL: So going back to on station. So you’ve got this locker room where you all changed.
LT: Yes.
JL: So you’d come back, presumably change back. Put everything back in your locker.
LT: Back in there. Yes.
JL: And then you would go to your debrief.
LT: The debriefing was just in the same building you know and there was a table there with the intelligence officers there sitting down and the things used to be going as well. We used to get rum. A glass of rum.
JL: And were there any occasions, Les when you came into the debrief and there was a crew that hadn’t made it?
LT: Oh, you mean got shot down? Oh yes.
JL: Often?
LT: There was the odd occasion.
JL: Odd occasion.
LT: Yes. Yeah. I can’t say —
JL: Was it different in that, on that, on those occasions?
LT: Yes. Oh yes. Yes. We had our own little way of kind of talking about them and that you know but I don’t think we got upset to, to the crying stage or anything like that you know but we talked about it. Yes. Made you think didn’t it?
JL: And did the intelligence officer or any of the officers on the ground did they, was there any form of a ceremony or drinking to your lost comrades or anything like that?
LT: No. You, you’d get a drink when you went in. When you went in and then you’d wait ‘til you, ‘til they became available and you’d sit down and then you’d do all the, he’d look at the, ask questions and things like that.
JL: Yeah.
LT: It was the navigator and I usually do that.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yes.
JL: You’re just crinkling the paper a little bit.
LT: Sorry.
JL: That’s alright. So going on from that.
LT: Yes.
JL: Your rooms in your barracks. What were they like? Did you share?
LT: No. We each crew had a Nissen hut. A little Nissen hut and that was for one crew.
JL: So it would have six beds in it or did you have separate rooms in the hut?
LT: No. All the beds were open. A free for all it was. Well, you got your own beds like but, but yes.
JL: Was it kept tidy? Or was it quite a mess in there?
LT: There was an inspection every so often. Yes. Yes. I don’t think we made, we were dirty or anything like that [laughs] Not for one minute.
JL: Was it cold?
LT: It had its moments.
JL: Was it cold? Because there was some fearsomely cold winters in those days.
LT: No. We had stoves in there. Box stoves you know with the thing going up through the top and we got quite a good heat from that. Yes. I can’t remember ever being really cold and uncomfortable and of course there was plenty going on.
JL: Well, tell —
LT: There was a good atmosphere.
JL: Tell me what was going on. What could keep you entertained when you were not actually on duty?
LT: Well, it depends. If we could go out we’d kind of more or less go out as a crew to a local pub or something like that. Or if we had any time off we’d perhaps go down to York and just, it just depended on availability. Whether you were stood down or whether you, you’d got to stand by.
JL: Some of the RAF bases had things like cinemas on site. Did you have that?
LT: We had dance hall.
JL: On site.
LT: But we didn’t have a cinema in itself. No. But we had, we had the dances on the squadron. Yes. Yes. Yes.
JL: And so you would bring in girls from —
LT: Could do. Yes.
JL: From local towns or —
LT: Yes.
JL: And did some of your colleagues have girlfriends who were in any of the local villages?
LT: I would think they probably did. Yes.
JL: I’m sure you were all in high demand weren’t you? Was there a bit of a kudos that went with being flying crew?
LT: Well, I think we could make things work in the pubs you know when we went down there if we went down as a crew.
JL: I like this phrase make things work.
LT: Yeah.
JL: What exactly does that mean, Les?
LT: Start a, start an atmosphere or something like that. There was no, I don’t think we were ever sorry for ourselves or anything like that. It wasn’t like that. No.
JL: Did you have sport going on?
LT: Oh yes. We, we played football and things like that and you could take part in training for athletics and things like that. Running and that. It was all available. Yes.
JL: And did you get much leave?
LT: About, about one every six weeks. A week every six weeks. Yes.
JL: And what would you do during your leave? Would you come back down to Droitwich?
LT: Oh yes. Always came home. Yes. Yes. Never go anywhere else. Yes. Because my, my mother didn’t even know I was on bombing raids until getting towards the end and I had an aunt who was her sister who knew. Knew everything you know. I didn’t tell. I got right the way through the op, my ops without her knowing and it made a difference to her as well. Yeah.
JL: Because she was so worried about you.
LT: She was so, yeah. Yeah. Well, you would, wouldn’t you?
JL: Absolutely.
LT: Yeah. Yes.
JL: Especially with the statistic you’ve given me that only a third —
LT: Yes. That’s what they reckon now. They’ve got statistics coming out now with [pause] yeah in aircrew.
JL: So you were operational throughout ’44 and ’45.
LT: No. Not that long.
JL: Not that long. When did you finish?
LT: Well, what do you mean by operational? Bombing? Bombing Germany?
JL: Doing your bombing raids.
LT: I was with 10 Squadron. Hold on. I’ll tell you. At one point in India there. 10 Squadron. June 30th to December the 22nd.
JL: Right. So —
LT: It was six months.
JL: End of ’44. Yeah. Yeah. So what happened then in December?
LT: December. I had a good leave.
JL: I hope it coincided with Christmas.
LT: Pardon?
JL: It sounds like it coincided with Christmas.
LT: It certainly did. I was home for Christmas. I did my last op on December the 22nd. Yes. I got home for Christmas.
JL: That was very well organized.
LT: Yes. Yes. And then you got to you must have a three month stand down. So you’d got to make up your mind what you were going to train for. You had to train for something and there were these various options. You know what I mean? And I —
JL: So just going back very quickly, Les. We’ll come on to that but why were you, why did you finish then? Was that because there was no more bombing raids to do?
LT: You finished a tour.
JL: It was a tour. Ok.
LT: And you got three months rest.
JL: So it’s a six month tour and a three month rest.
LT: Yes.
JL: I’m with you.
LT: Yes.
JL: Ok. So you had to choose this option of what you were going to do.
LT: That’s right. Yeah. So you can see, and I decided I would like to become a flying control officer. I got a commission like when we finished our tour. The skipper was a flight sergeant when he started and he was a flight lieutenant when he finished and he got the DFC. Jonny, our navigator he was a flight lieutenant when we started and he was a flight lieutenant when we finished and he got the DFC and I got a commission and the wireless operator went for an interview for a commission because they said he could and he didn’t pass. So that was it you know.
JL: So, did you have to go for an interview for a commission?
LT: Oh yes. Yes.
JL: What was that like?
LT: Quite good really. It was a wing commander. No, it wasn’t. It was a group captain I saw. A group captain I saw you know and he was lovely and I told him I was a fishmonger’s son you know and he kind of asked me questions about being a fishmonger’s son and things like that and and I felt very much at ease because it, I was a bit shaky when I went in.
JL: And when you came out did you know immediately that you were going to be recommended for a commission?
LT: I had an idea. I had an idea. Yes. By the way he was. He shook my hand very well as I went and then suddenly I was a pilot officer.
JL: A pilot officer.
LT: That’s the lowest rank. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: Congratulations.
LT: And I finished as a flying officer.
JL: Right. So did your life then change now you were an officer?
LT: Well, it changed because I’d finished flying on ops, hadn’t I and the crew had split up and went to the four winds.
JL: And did that happen literally on that December day? You all went off in your own directions never to get together again.
LT: Well, no. We, you could apply for various things as a crew and we talked about it and we talked about going as Pathfinders. You know what I mean? Because we were an A crew and we’d got these various well we’d done well and then we decided not to.
JL: Can you remember why?
LT: No. Not really. Not really. No. I don’t know whether it was something to do with the navigator. Jonny was getting on. He’d got a family you know and I think that was the start of it. I was pretty easy what I did. I couldn’t care less really. But that was it. It was all good. Good what happened.
JL: So when you, was —
LT: But you’d got to take a three months rest at least.
JL: So you weren’t going to see each other during that period anyway.
LT: Not unless you stayed together. Yes. Yes. And so I decided I’d like to become a control officer. A flying control officer.
JL: And did you see any of your crew again? Did you get together as a group?
LT: No. Only, only Jock, the wireless operator. He was my mate and he came to my wedding and we saw each other two or three times after. And then he went to Australia and when I had four months in Australia with my daughter and I tried to find him and I couldn’t. Yeah.
JL: So that’s a strange thing isn’t it? That those seven people —
LT: People just go to the four winds.
JL: That you were as close to as probably —
LT: Yeah.
JL: Anyone in your life during that period.
LT: Yeah. Yes.
JL: And then you went your separate ways.
LT: Yes. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think probably it was an attitude more than anything of getting out and away. Yes. I don’t think I wanted to carry on as such. I would have carried on if everyone had kept together. But no. I didn’t want to at the time I don’t think. Yeah.
JL: So during your three months did you have to retrain as a flying controller?
LT: Yes. You went on a course. You had a leave. A reasonable leave. I forget what the time was now. It was about a couple of weeks or something like that. And then you reported to wherever they told you and went off on a flying control officer’s course. And I did the basic one at Watchfield. I don’t know whether [unclear] in Watchfield but I don’t know where it is now and [pause] what was I going to say?
JL: Did you go on to do a further course after the Watchfield one?
LT: Oh no. No. I know what it was. You had to apply. You had to apply for a station to go to. Possibly near which was handy for you and I chose Pershore. A little down the road here and I got it.
JL: Excellent.
LT: So I did my course and got through that alright. Went to Pershore and finished my training there and I started doing watches fully trained. So I became a fully trained [pause] a fully trained control officer.
JL: Based at —
LT: Yes. And the war finished then.
JL: Pershore.
LT: The war finished then and I thought, oh great. I’m right near home, you know. And then we got this signal come around to say the following officers will be inoculated and vaccinated to Transport Command standards and report to New Delhi, India. Flying out to New Delhi, India you see. And then we had to report to another place where we all came together and there were seventeen of us and they converted what was the other bomber? [pause] There was a Lancaster and the Halifax and the other one. I can’t think of it. Anyway, they converted this one, put seats in it and I forget where we went from now but we flew out to India in that and we went all along the North African Coast dropping down to get refuelled in various places and eventually we got to Karachi and that was the start of my Indian thing. I was out there a year.
JL: So when you got this missive through to say that you had to get your jabs and report —
LT: Yes.
JL: To New Delhi. What was your first thought?
LT: Oh.
JL: Absolutely. You’d done all that work.
LT: Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And you were being sent away again.
LT: Yeah. Because it was a lovely feeling when the war finished. You thought when can I get out? And there I was. I was, I know I was number forty four my demob number was and I forget what it was. It was about thirty when I found out about it and off I went and it was the best thing I ever did.
JL: Tell me a little bit about your time in India then. So you started off at Karachi.
LT: Yeah. Posted to India there. October 26th. I went to Lyneham and we flew to Castel Benito, right and Shaibah. Mauripur and that’s in [pause] we split up then. I went, then we went, no. We went from there to New Delhi. The seventeen of us.
JL: So how long did this journey take?
LT: October the 26th to November the 2nd.
JL: Goodness. When you think they could hop on an aircraft now.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And be there in a few hours.
LT: Yeah.
JL: But that must have been quite an adventure.
LT: Oh, it was. Yeah. Because they allowed us to go out when we got to these various places. Yeah. Oh, it was very good.
JL: And was there a bit of a sense that now the war was over it was more of an adventure. It wasn’t quite so —
LT: Oh yes. Yes. We got that feeling. Yes.
JL: And as an officer now did you have better —
LT: Oh yes.
JL: Conditions.
LT: Always go to the Officer’s Mess wherever you were. Yes. That was a much better thing. Yeah. And then I went to 36 Staging Post in Hakimpet from November to January. That’s near Hyderabad.
JL: And what were you doing there?
LT: A flying control officer.
JL: Ok.
LT: Yeah.
JL: So that meant you were based at an airfield.
LT: Yes.
JL: In charge of everything that came in.
LT: Yes.
JL: And went out.
LT: Yes. That’s right. Yes. I did a few watches because I was fully trained then. A few watches and then I took over and I was alright. And then I thought I was finished there didn’t I and then they posted me to Chittagong in East Bengal and I thought oh my God, you know. But that was another trip. I went down to Madras and I went up to Calcutta. I went down the Brahmaputra River to get to Chittagong. They didn’t fly me at all. I had to go by train and that was quite an adventure that was.
JL: I bet it was.
LT: And your hotels you were booked in. They let you go in a hotel and —
JL: So, you were now mid-twenties.
LT: Yeah.
JL: A young man seeing the world.
LT: That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And what did you think of it?
LT: Marvellous. Marvellous.
JL: Did you enjoy India?
LT: I enjoyed every minute of it. Yes.
JL: And how were you received by the Indian people that you met just locally?
LT: Not bad at all. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Not bad at all. And my big tale about Chittagong was that I met Pandit Nehru there. You’ve heard of Pandit Nehru haven’t you? Well, he flew [pause] I was on, on watch, completely in charge of everything and this Airspeed Oxford came into the circuit and asked if they could land you see. And then suddenly cars started coming up from here, there and everywhere and parked here and there. Landed it and it was Pandit Nehru. They’d got a strike on down in Chittagong and he’d come down to do what he could do and it was chaos. Of course, these couldn’t care less. Pandit Nehru was coming. And the CO sent for me you see and he said, sorry he sent for me and he said, ‘You’re in charge.’ He said, ‘Now, go out and put him right.’ You see. So I went out and I met Pandit Nehru and I told him that if he wanted to take off again no cars had got to come near the airfield or else we wouldn’t let him take off. And he said, ‘Ok.’ That was it.
JL: Well, I’m sure you said it very politely.
LT: I did. Yeah [laughs] And he went and did his thing and he phoned up the next day to say he wanted to take off at a certain time and I said, ‘Don’t forget what I said yesterday.’ And he came up and we were quite good friends when he took off. Shook hands with him and I thought well I’ve met Pandit Nehru now.
JL: That’s your claim to fame isn’t it?
LT: Yes. Yeah. Yeah
JL: Yeah. So ,as the officer in charge of the airfield were you invited by the local population to, I don’t know dinners or golf clubs or, you hear of this sort of colonial lifestyle going on.
LT: Yeah. Yeah.
JL: Did you?
LT: The Gurkhas guarded us while we were there and there were, there were officers there and in my hall you’ll see a kukri. They gave me that when I was, they gave me that kukri. Its falling to pieces now but yes we could go down there to the various places you know. I’d got my own jeep and everything. Quite free when I was off duty and you were near the seaside as well. So, so yes it was quite a good place to be.
JL: So you could go down to the beach.
LT: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And what, what was happening in that area at that time? What were you doing there? What were the British doing there?
LT: Well, nothing actually. There was loads of vehicles there because they’d put them all there to invade Burma and it didn’t come off did it? It didn’t come off so they were all laid there. So we all had a vehicle if we wanted one and I had a jeep. So, so, well the main job was that there was a through flow of traffic you know through. Through to the other thing. And believe it or not there were a lot of coffin runs they called them and they were American aircraft, Dakotas mainly that were shipping American bodies back to America and they came through Chittagong.
JL: Where were they coming from? From the war in the Far East?
LT: Yeah. Yeah. From the Far East war. Yes.
JL: So you —
LT: Because it had finished hadn’t it and they were getting these bodies out and they called it the coffin run and they used to refuel at Chittagong.
JL: So you were pretty much a stopping off point on —
LT: That’s right. Yes. Yes.
JL: On the route.
LT: Yeah. Yeah.
JL: And that was one of your main jobs.
LT: Oh yes.
JL: Was to coordinate the passing by of various —
LT: That’s right. Yes. Through traffic. Yes. Yes.
JL: So what happened towards the end of your time there? Were you aware that this was going to be your last tour?
LT: Oh yes. yes. I’d got a demob number. 44 it was.
JL: Yeah.
LT: And it was posted up, the demob number was and I came up very close and I was offered a job somewhere. It would mean a promotion and I said, ‘No. I’m going home.’
JL: Would that have a been a job out in India? Staying out in India.
LT: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: But you wanted to go home by this point.
LT: That’s right. Yes. Yes.
JL: But you enjoyed India.
LT: Oh, yeah. It was wonderful. Yes. Yes. Yes. I went to Calcutta. They made me sports officer there as well and [pause] are we alright for time are we?
JL: Yeah. Fine. Fine.
LT: And we had a Dakota. Do you remember the old Dakota? The CO flew up with me to Calcutta in this Dakota and they loaded. Oh, this was under orders. They loaded all this sports equipment on so that we could take it back and keep the people occupied because the war was finished you see. So that was another job I had and quite good that.
JL: It does sound good.
LT: Yeah.
JL: So eventually you get, your demob number comes up.
LT: Yes. Yes.
JL: And can you remember the actual day? The moment that that happened.
LT: [unclear]
JL: How did it come through? Would it come through just —
LT: Oh, it would come through as a signal.
JL: Right.
LT: Through to the station.
JL: And this would have been in 1946 are we in now?
LT: 36 Staging Post, Hakimpet. Madras, Calcutta. 27 Staging Post, Chittagong, Bengal. Worli Camp. I went to Bombay to come home by boat.
JL: You went by boat. Ok.
LT: By boat. Yes. Yes. So that was it. And —
JL: What was the journey home like on the boat?
LT: Good. Quite good. Quite good. Yes.
JL: Now you were in the officer’s —
LT: In the officer’s, yes. I had an officer’s duty to do. ‘Any complaints?’ So I was repatriated by sea in the SS Canton and we went through Suez, Gibraltar, Southampton. On August the 16th 1946 I came out.
JL: A good moment or a sad moment?
LT: No. A good moment.
JL: You were ready to move on.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
JL: So, just tell me briefly, Les. What happened then? Did you come home to Droitwich and —
LT: Yes. I had a nice long leave and I got married. That was the main thing that happened.
JL: So you must have met your wife to be —
LT: Oh yes.
JL: Beforehand.
LT: Oh, yes. Yes.
JL: Long distance courting all these years.
LT: Yeah. I was, I was engaged to her before I went out to India and we wrote. We’ve got lots of letters we wrote to each other. Yeah.
JL: No wonder you wanted to come home. You hadn’t mentioned that you’d met —
LT: Oh no.
JL: The woman that you were going to marry.
LT: Oh yes. We had a good flow of letters.
JL: So where did you meet?
LT: Meet Dot?
JL: Yeah. Where did you meet?
LT: Oh, earlier on in my life. She came, do you know [unclear]
JL: I do.
LT: With the station there, the petrol station there. Well, my sister was married to Doug Miles and his father owned that and they were friendly with Dot’s parents and she came over to Droitwich and we used to meet up there. She was only about fifteen sixteen and we played, you know.
JL: So this was before you —
LT: Before I went in the workforces.
JL: Goodness me.
LT: Yes. Yeah.
JL: And your relationship survived all those years.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JL: Well, that’s a lovely story.
LT: Yes.
JL: So you were married in ’46.
LT: Yes.
JL: And then settled in Droitwich and have been here ever since.
LT: Yeah. Yeah. I went to live, we went to live in Birmingham for two years and then got this house.
JL: And how did you move into civilian life? Seamlessly or was it hard?
LT: I don’t, I don’t think it was hard at all. I got, I got loads of confidence I felt. Yeah. And I was a red hot Labour supporter then and when I got back they got to find out about that [laughs] So I was, that was another story that was. Yes.
JL: What did you do for a job, Les?
LT: I went back as a pattern maker.
JL: Did you? Back to Longbridge?
LT: Yes. Oh yes. They had to keep your job for you. Yes.
JL: And had you finished your apprenticeship before you left?
LT: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JL: So you came back as a skilled pattern maker.
LT: Yes. Oh no. I hadn’t. I hadn’t quite finished my apprenticeship. No. I’m sorry. My dad signed me off. I forget what time it was now and in the, in the process pattern makers they did a job evaluation on skilled trades. Pattern makers came top. So I came back to work at Longbridge and I got ten pound a week and that was really something that was. That was a good wage. All my friends they were around about seven, six or seven pounds in various jobs. I came back at ten pounds.
JL: So you’d done well.
LT: Yeah. Did well. Yeah.
JL: And did you stay at Longbridge for a long time?
LT: Yes. I stayed there ‘til I was sixty.
JL: Man and boy.
LT: And then I took redundancy. Yes. They offered the money and that was it. I got out.
JL: Les, I’m sure there’s a whole other story there but I feel that I must let you go. But just to sort of sum up what we’ve talked about can you pull out of your wartime memories for me any particular highlights? Anything that you would like to tell you grandchildren or great grandchildren or great great grandchildren in the future.
LT: Well, it’s, well I, I could relate quite a lot of various little things you know. I don’t think I’d go into the feelings of [pause] I’d tell them about, you know dropping bombs and things like that and the aeroplanes and that but I don’t think I’d go any further than that. No. Because the one’s at it now. He waits for me when I go over and he wants to talk about the aeroplanes. That’s —
JL: A lovely card with an aeroplane drawing. Does that make you feel quite proud?
LT: Yes. I’ve got a lovely family. A wonderful family. Yes. Yes.
JL: Well, it’s been absolutely fascinating talking to you, Les. Thank you ever so much for your time.
LT: Thank you for putting up with me. I didn’t think I was going to stand this.