Interview with Richard Dunning Pexton

Interview with Richard Dunning Pexton

Richard Dunning Pexton joined the RAF Reserve before the war, completing his early flying on biplanes before being called up in September 1939. He flew Gladiators and Hurricanes in France in May 1940, witnessing the collapse first‑hand, then returned to Britain to fly briefly in the Battle of Britain with 615 Squadron before moving into training roles. His long stint in Canada at Medicine Hat saw him rise to squadron commander and later Chief Instructor, earning the AFC for his service. Wanting to return to operations, he volunteered for heavy bombers and, after Wellingtons and Stirlings, joined 61 Squadron on Lancasters, eventually commanding the squadron as a wing commander. He completed twenty‑eight operations, including the attacks on Caen, Königsberg and Munich.
After the war he returned to his Yorkshire farm.

1977-12-13

01:24:39 audio recording

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APextonRD770930

Interviewer: This is a recording of Wing Commander R D Pexton DFC AOC made at his home in Bridlington on the 30th of December 1977. As you will gather Dick Pexton is a farmer who trained as a pilot in the Volunteer Reserve before the war. He has a somewhat unique distinction of having commenced his operational flying in Gloster Gladiators and finished it on Lancasters in command of Number 61 Squadron.
[recording paused]
Interviewer: Can you tell me how did you come to join the RAF?
RP: Well, I left school in 1930 and I was farming with my father.
Interviewer: In Yorkshire.
RP: Yes. In Yorkshire. And then I joined the Territorial Army in about 1932 and we did camps and training during the year and after the third camp we saw an air demonstration of message picking up with Hart Variants and things and I thought well that, that’s a better job than being in the infantry and I then joined the RAF Reserve. I lost my commission and started as an airman. In 1937, I think that would be about the year the RAFVR was formed and I seconded into that and was commissioned in 1938. In the RAFVR we flew training aircraft and we were allowed to fly them at weekends or nights in the summer. We also had training in the winter at our Training Centre in Hull and after you’ve done so much flying you had an ab initio course. Then you had your weekend flying. You had to get so many hours in. Then we went on to SFTS which were flying which were Hart Variants. After we completed two hundred hours on these aircraft and then we were allowed to go to a squadron to complete our training. Unfortunately, by 1939 very few pilots had done this but luckily I had. I was in 41 Squadron at Catterick in January to April.
Interviewer: ’39.
RP: In 1939. Yes, Jack. And it was quite an experience at the time because to fly a Spitfire it was a two bladed prop and one had to pump the undercarriage up and it was quite an experience for me. But we went through quite a lot of training, air firing and formation and everything else which of course we hadn’t done in the Hart Variants at our VR station at —
Interviewer: At Brands Hatch.
RP: That was at Brands Hatch.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Yes.
Interviewer: Did you learn to fly initially on the Blackburn?
RP: On the Blackburn B-2.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Yes. All my training until we got to Hart Variants was done on the B-2. A wonderful aircraft because you were side by side instead of a tandem. Then I think I left 41 Squadron at the end of May and went back on the farm. And then of course we got to September when it was pretty evident that there was going to be a war and I got my call up papers on the 2nd of September. The police delivered them and I unfortunately was away at the time in the local, the local pub. That’s right.
Interviewer: In the Alex I suppose.
RP: Well, that’s right. The jolly old Alex and unfortunately I had two friends with me and rather than, instead of going home straight away which I was supposed to do we kept on until we finally did land at home. I packed my cases up and my two friends took me to York and then we, I went down to Kenley.
Interviewer: You were posted direct to a squadron. Called to a squadron.
RP: Yes. To 615 Squadron.
Interviewer: Why to an auxiliary squadron? Do you —
RP: Well, I never queried anything that I was asked to do and getting, arriving at Kenley I felt a bit the worse for wear and unshaven but that didn’t seem to matter much and found the squadron was at Croydon. So I went over to Croydon, saw our CO and —
Interviewer: Who was the CO there?
RP: Oh, Squadron Leader Vere Harvey.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And then after leaving him somebody took me around to introduce to the other fellows of the Auxiliary Squadron. Well, this was quite an experience for me and for them for that matter because I was straight out of a harvest field and I’m afraid a lot of the, or any of the members of 615 hadn’t. Didn’t even know what a harvest field was and they certainly didn’t know what a Yorkshire farmer was but found out later on. We didn’t do any flying to start with. We weren’t allowed to because everybody expected the bombs to fall any day or anytime and we just stood by our aircraft and in our aircraft. I’d never flown one of these Gladiators on the squadron. I’d never flown one of these Gladiators and so I was longing to fly but I had to sit in the thing for two hours on and two hours off.
Interviewer: And had never flown in one.
RP: I hadn’t flown one then but unfortunately as you know things were very tricky in those days. Everybody expected the balloon to go up as they called it. Then things eased off a bit and we did some flying. I must say the Gladiator was one of the most fantastic aircraft for aerobatics or anything you liked. A beautiful aircraft. We also did some night flying which ended up in tragedy because some of the fellows that were flying from an auxiliary squadron hadn’t flown at night before and we lost two in one night’s night flying. So that came to an end.
Interviewer: You already had some night flying experience I believe.
RP: Yes. I was lucky. I’d been trained to night fly in a Spitfire. That was, I was sent up and it was dark then and it was very dark when I came down to land but I was told to do three landings and I thought well I’ll try one when my time was up and that’s what I did and I got away with it.
Interviewer: This was at Catterick with 41 Squadron.
RP: This was Catterick with 41 Squadron. Yes. Then with the Gladiators time went on and we got 607 joined us at Croydon. Then the idea was that we were going over to France which we did on November the 15th. We flew out as a wing and I can remember we had one of the four-engine British Airways, no. What was it called? British airways in the old days.
Interviewer: Imperial Airways.
RP: Imperial Airways. That’s it.
Interviewer: Ensign was it?
RP: Yes. Hannibal.
Interviewer: Hannibal.
RP: Would it be a Hannibal?
Interviewer: Yes. A four-engine plane.
RP: A four-engine plane.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Anyway, we packed this thing up and we put a motorbike in as well which unfortunately fell out when the door was opened to get the luggage out but we seemed to get away with that. That was when we landed at Merville. That was our first landing place and we were a bit surprised in a way because we refuelled. I think the things would be in four-gallon tins of sealed petrol and we had to put this through chamois leather and funnels and we had to, although we had airmen we had to help them with them. Trying to get this stuff to go through and it never seemed to do. It took us hours to get an aircraft filled. Well, I think the idea of all this was was the sheer fact that they thought there might have been sabotage and somebody had put some water in these tins. Whether that was right or wrong I don’t know. We then started flying training. As you know there was no sort of war it was just a matter of training then and then we had this terrible winter and we were at the flights at about 6 o’clock every morning warming the aircraft up. Unfortunately this damaged the aircraft tremendously because it was so cold and some of them just stopped then. We had to [pause] we had to put hot bricks into the air intake. Sometimes they caught on fire and sometimes they didn’t but we finally got them started.
Interviewer: A hot brick in the air intake.
RP: Yes. Well you —
Interviewer: I’ve never heard of that one.
RP: No. Well, we used to heat these up in the stove and then —
[recording interrupted]
RP: We were billeted with the local inhabitants and of course as you know they didn’t seem to care whether they bathed. We never could find a bath in the village even and it was terribly cold and we never had any heating. And we congregated as a wing, that was 607 and ourselves in an estamine. Don’t get the name wrong because it means a pub [pause] which we took over. Later on we went to Vitry and as time got on we did cross-Channel patrols. From there we did those from Sainte Inglevert. We went as a flight and lived in a hotel there. Had a jolly good time and met some of the arme [unclear] there and used to go out to dinner with them and I must say they were very supportive types. Time got on. This was about what we did. We used to do patrols along the Belgian border too. Maybe one or two aircraft. It was more of an exercise than anything else.
Interviewer: What [cough] excuse me, were both squadrons equipped with Gladiators?
RP: Both squadrons were equipped with Gladiators at the time. Then we started re-equipping with, with Hurricanes. 607 equipped first and A-Flight of 615 equipped and B-Flight just went to Abbeville to re-equip on May the 10th. That of course was the day when everything started.
Interviewer: You were B-Flight were you?
RP: I was in B Flight. Yeah.
[recording paused]
RP: The May the 10th actually arrived at Abbeville on the morning of May the 10th. We got there the night before and we heard bombing and the guns went off around the aerodrome and it was quite a fright really. We got up. This would be about 6 o’clock in the morning. Went down to the airfield and we found that enemy aircraft had been over bombing. But we weren’t bombed and I took a flight of three aircraft, three Gladiators and we went to [pause] east. Couldn’t find anything. Obviously it was far too late and we landed at Le Touquet where the aerodrome had actually been bombed and three of the aircraft of A-Flight had been damaged by bomb shrapnel and I came back and reported this matter to the CO who was then Squadron Leader Joe Kayll. Then in the afternoon as nothing else happened I was allowed to familiarise myself with a Hurricane. Did two or three landings and that sort of thing and then the following day we went off on a patrol. We landed at Vitry, refuelled and we went off escorting some Battles on, who were bombing a bridge on the Albert Canal. This was the first time really we came up against opposition. 109s were in the area and although the flight seemed to be very short as far as I could find out —
[recording interrupted]
RP: The flight I was in and it seemed quite alarming in a way but very short and sweet. The only thing was watching the Battles get shot up as they were trying their bombing run. The following day we went with Blenheims and there again we didn’t meet any opposition but the Blenheims certainly met quite a lot of flak.
Interviewer: This was on the [unclear] again was it?
RP: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And then on the following day, that would be about May the 13th I should say we went to [Dinant]. Again Battles were bombing a bridge and just to watch them bomb and even most probably not get there and be shot up by light flak that the Germans always had in front of them if anything and the casualties were terrible. This time we were a wing and Squadron Leader Smith of 607 was leading and I was just behind him and we were attacked by 110s with a head on attack. The first thing I realised as they were flying through us was Squadron Leader Smith had got direct hits and was on fire and went down at that point. I was lucky. I then chased one person, fired at him and somebody else followed right up behind me and fired at him again and I broke away and this aircraft went down. I followed another one for I should think about two minutes. It certainly outstripped my speed. I turned back to [Dinant] to the bridge and I was absolutely surprised to find no aircraft there at all. I should think this had taken about three or four minutes. I was soon to realise that this was what happened with these dogfights and things. Then I saw some JU88s, about six or eight of them coming across. I was making my way up and saw two Hurricanes going in to attack and I got between the two Hurricanes. The first Hurricane attacked. I was just going to, just be attacking, about to press the button when everything seemed to fall off my aircraft. Little did I realise it was a 109 facing the first aircraft and I just got between them. I went into a spin and I should think about twelve thousand feet I couldn’t get the aircraft out of the spin. Later I found that the rudder wires had been damaged on my port side. I opened my hood but couldn’t get it completely back which you had to do to release the side panel to bale out. So I tried to get out of the aircraft by standing up and squeezing out of the aperture between the windscreen and the canopy. Unfortunately, I got jammed, at least my parachute did and I didn’t seem to get any further. All of a sudden the aircraft came out of its spin on its own and went into a [unclear]. I was extraordinarily lucky. I was just able to get hold of the control column and pull it out of this [unclear] and get back into the aircraft. I finally did make the aerodrome which was a bit difficult flying as you may imagine and the undercarriage wouldn’t go down, not properly and I pranged on landing and broke the thing up altogether. And it was when I got out I was surprised to see so many holes in the aircraft.
Interviewer: Were you, were you hit yourself?
RP: No. Not. No, I wasn’t hit. I was lucky. It was quite an experience to see shells and bullets go past you. I always thought they’d go faster than they did. They seemed to take a bit of time and you could see the —
Interviewer: Tracer.
RP: The tracers very easily. After that we moved off to Belgium to a little aerodrome there and I should think this would be about the 16th of May when we landed there. Now, one aircraft, one flight at least was to patrol from Brussels to the aerodrome. I can’t give you the name of the aerodrome. For the goodness of me I can’t.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: I can’t think of it. But we landed and then one member of the other flight came back. The flight was led by a Flight Lieutenant Tommy [Formley] and this fellow came back and said, well he was the only chap that did come back out of the flight and so for God’s sake don’t go hunting because we broke off from our patrol and we said, ‘Go hunting if you want.’ And by then we were attacked by 109s.
[recording interrupted]
RP: Spotted by other aircraft from our squadron, the reserves that came up so there was about eight or nine of us were on this airfield at the time. Now, our duty was as we were so diminished was to do a dawn patrol and a night patrol and then do a reconnaissance in the daytime. Now, the idea of the reconnaissance was to find out how far the Germans had come up and we’d report and come back to the aerodrome and report it. During that time about 8.30 we had a relief squadron came from the UK. They did the patrols as a squadron. Now, we used to go in two, threes or even single to do map reading and see where these fellows, where the enemy had got to. I can always remember the feeling of relief when these fellows landed about 8 o’clock. The relief squadron. I always remember the remorse when they went off at 6.30 and we had another patrol to do. It could be I’d have two days there on this aeroplane and of course then we knew that things were in a terrible state because the refugees were gathering up momentum on the —
Interviewer: The roads.
RP: On the roads and of course you know the Belgian Army had horse drawn military vehicles and so it would be on the 19th of May we were asked to do a patrol between Cambrai and Arras. After the relieving squadron went I thought good God anyway and four of us went. I can remember the fellows. Well, there was [unclear] there was Tony [Eyre], Mac Knight the Canadian. A jolly nice fellow but I’d been with him once or twice and he would keep getting further and further behind and I told him, ‘You must keep up whatever you do.’ Anyway, we were on our patrol between [Cambrai] and Arras and the time was just about due for us to turn back when we were attacked by fifteen ME109s. Unfortunately, I was flying an aircraft that was a [feather] bladed propeller. A very old one with no wireless in it.
Interviewer: No radio at all.
RP: Well, it had a radio but it hadn’t one of these things you have to put into —
[recording interrupted]
RP: Crystals. That’s what they called them.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: They had to have special crystals. Well, of course, Jack, as you know we’d lost the blooming things.
Interviewer: Yes. Yeah.
RP: In the other aircraft. So I wasn’t in contact with the leader that was [unclear] and anyway we wheeled around and I gather later that they’d got to [unclear] one fellow but didn’t improve him. I don’t think I ever got it. Then the skies I told you a time or two now within two minutes it had cleared away and that was it and then a lone Hurricane came up to me on my starboard side and I was very pleased to see him because I could see him very well because he was in the sun away from the sun from me.
Interviewer: Out of the sun.
RP: Out of the sun. That’s right. All of a sudden when he came very close indeed he opened fire and the aircraft, I could see the bullets now starting at my starboard wingtip and going, starting straight across. I went into a turn and these bullets seemed to go, well they went into the cockpit. The instrument panel got smashed and also the fuel tank, the reserve fuel tank got punctured and the fuel was going over me. But extraordinarily lucky that the thing didn’t catch on fire. By then I’d put it into a spin and kept it until I was going to get very near the ground before I pulled it up. I undid my second harness unfortunately in case anything happened and I had to jump out quickly. I was then covered with glycol which was reasonably warm because I’d had to keep this aircraft absolutely full throttle to keep up with the others and then crash landed. I got out of the thing, took my parachute, with my parachute on obviously, took my parachute off and of course I’d been told you know you mustn’t leave an aircraft about and so I threw a match in to it and I was absolutely surprised how quickly it blew up. Walked in front of it to a village that was about a half mile away. Still with my stupid parachute. Then the guns fired off and frightened my to death and this time a Hurricane did just do a quick circuit around and then went off.
Interviewer: He didn’t do a victory roll.
RP: No. He didn’t do a victory roll. I was told one little bit about it. Went into a village and there seemed to be no people in it at all and then an old woman just came out of a cottage and I showed her my wound you see and actually dressed it in my field dressing.
Interviewer: You hadn’t told me about the wound. Where were you wounded?
RP: In the calf of my leg.
Interviewer: I see.
RP: And she commiserated a bit and then I went on into the village. I was absolutely, there was nobody there and I went to a biggish house in the village. It was a farmhouse. As you know in France they have a little farmyard all in the, and a farmhouse in the middle and I found some refugees there and they told me that the place had been evacuated and all the plates and things were on the table that the people had had for their last meal. This rather affected me in a way because I’d also got facial injuries unfortunately with undoing my second harness and then I —
Interviewer: I was going to say you must have smashed your face against the gunsight.
RP: Yes. Well, actually sort of just the side of the gunsight on the windscreen. Then they redressed my wound and there was a girl there that had been in England as a maid and she had, luckily this was a bit of a contact. But I hadn’t been there above a few minutes when some two scouts came on motorbikes into the farmyard and they just popped their head in and said, ‘Pilot anglaise?’ I said, ‘Mais oui.’ I’d learned a bit of French by then you see. One of these scouts said, ‘Vite. Vite.’ Well, I knew what vite meant and I hobbled out and got on the back of his motorbike and I was surprised. Just going through the end of the village we got shot at. Then it’s a very long story Jack and really I don’t think it’s worth —
Interviewer: No. Where did they take you to?
RP: Went to Douai where I’d been, which is near Vitry. We finally got to Douai and I was appalled. We couldn’t find any Red Cross people there. They had all evacuated and I just couldn’t believe that the Germans had got so far as this. The town was bombed and on fire and all the [unclear] they were drunk and pillaging everywhere. It really was frightening. Anyway, one of these French scouts got an officer, an Army officer in the car, stopped him. I asked him to take me to a hospital if he could. I got in the back. I don’t think he was very keen about having me but of course by then it was getting dark. We seemed to go for quite a time and of course the roads were —
Interviewer: Jammed.
RP: Jammed with these refugees within reason. I couldn’t understand why we were going in the opposite direction. Anyway, we came across a NAAFI depot and we stopped there and a sergeant came out. He was absolutely drunk as a lord and just had a look at me and said, ‘Christ,’ he said, ‘That poor bugger wants some brandy. I’ve got twenty or forty bottles if you want it.’ I said no. I did take some cigarettes off him and we went. I think he would soon be a POW. Later on, about twenty minutes after that we suddenly came to a halt where the refugees were screaming and I think it must have been a German tank that we’d come up and this fellow just turned the car around and hitting people. It was terrible really. And then we got away again. I was then finally put among some German soldiers in a big factory place. This again Jack’s a long story. Dr [unclear] could speak English and redressed my leg again and the next morning when these fellows woke up because I still had my parachute —
Interviewer: You were still in this parachute.
RP: I thought it was the thing to do to hang on to this bloody thing. I always heard people always brought their parachute back. Even brought their aircraft back.
Interviewer: You weren’t just trying to prove that you could join the Caterpillar Club.
RP: Oh that —
Interviewer: You hadn’t used it anyway.
RP: I hadn’t used it.
[recording interrupted]
RP: I believe Jack I said German soldiers. No. I wasn’t as bad as that. I was with the French soldiers.
Interviewer: In this —
RP: In the —
Interviewer: Hostel. Dressing station.
RP: No. No. No. Just a big factory where you could, I should think it was a battalion of them if not bigger and as I told you the MO could speak English. The next morning when I woke up still with this parachute I’d used as a pillow and I was lying down with these fellows I sort of couldn’t quite understand. There was quite a big discussion going on around, around where I was lying because these fellows had got up by then and luckily one fellow said he’d gone to see the MO and I understood what he meant. The MO came and I think he must have saved my life because he got hold of me and took me out and put me in an outhouse and explained to me that they thought I was a German because I had this parachute.
Interviewer: I see.
RP: Well, I must admit that was when I lost my parachute thank God. I didn’t travel with that anymore. Later on that day we were taken in an ambulance and went miles. We went up to a hospital in Ghent and then they couldn’t take us in because the casualties were too great and they were absolutely full. This of course was very lucky for me and we went on again and about mid-day we stopped in a little village. I was extraordinarily lucky there. The ambulance doors were open and I saw two or three kids and I called for them because I think there would be four or five of us in this ambulance and the other fellows were certainly worse off than I was and I asked them to get us some drink because we hadn’t had anything. And they went off. I gave them some money. They went off and this was the first time I met a British soldier which happened to be a sergeant in the Medical Corps and I called for him and he came and we had a discussion. I said, ‘Well, can you get me out?’ Because I knew the thing was getting pretty tight and he said they were evacuating but he would see what he could do and then unfortunately the ambulance moved off to a school that they had made as a small hospital and I was put on a bed there and I thought well this is it, I’ve missed my chance now, and luckily two, two medical officers came and they just said, ‘Now, don’t say anything but — ’ they said, ‘We’ve got to move you out here. We’re going. They’re only two or three miles away.’
Interviewer: They were British.
RP: They were British luckily. Yes. They put me on, in an ambulance that was full of kit, their kit and they said, ‘Well, I must just go back to the estamine. There is something else I want to pick up.’ And they asked me, ‘Did I want a lot of silver?’ They said, ‘There’s lots of silver and stuff there.’ I said, ‘No. I wanted to get out of the place. Never mind about the silver.’ Then I was taken to a casualty clearing station that was in the grounds of a very big house from what I can remember there. And in the tent I was put on the ground there and I can always remember the sergeant, the major say, ‘For Christ’s sake don’t bring any more in we’ve got to get them away as quick as we can.’ This again frightened me. I think at this time Jack after the heat of the battle no one really wants to be in a casualty clearing station and you know there’s nothing you can do about it you see. This is a difficulty.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Anyway, luckily I got away. I keep saying luckily because I always felt that I was lucky. Got away in an ambulance at dusk and then it got dark and then the ambulance fellow said he’d lost his way but we found a hospital train. This was at Armentières so I’m near. It wasn’t in the town. It was just near the town. I was put on a bunk there and of course it was absolutely fantastic to think at last and we took our uniform off and we were in pyjamas. There was then another chap came in. A fellow named Flying Officer Saunders who was terribly badly burned. All his sleeves were burned off his uniform and he was facial burns. He finally went blind the poor chap. I had quite a lot of correspondence on this and we don’t really know what finally happened to him. But anyway in the morning, or early in the morning the train was machine gunned and of course as you know these hospital trains had red crosses on it.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: Then the line was bombed in front. We hadn’t moved very far and about mid-day the stretcher cases were put on ambulances. There was a big bank and we went down this bank to the ambulance and looking around there were a lot of what I should term as walking wounded sat on this bank. One realised that these fellows would obviously become POWs.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: When we were machine gunned four there were four or five fellows killed in the carriage next to ours and this really made me bitter against the opposition as you may realise later when I tell you about a certain incident. We went to Steenvoorde which is getting on to Dunkirk and had two days there and it really was under terrible conditions. I can remember the padre cut up a wicker chair, cut a hole around and that was our sanitation by changing the bowls underneath.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: We held each other onto this and we had dog biscuits and if we were lucky we got a bucket of tea with one mug and we shared it as it went around. We were on the floor. Not in beds. Then on the 23rd of May we were taken in ambulances to Dunkirk. This will be I should think again about mid-day or even most probably the evening but I was amazed after being taken off the ambulance and put onto HMS Worthing which I think was a ferry boat made into a hospital boat —
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: To see so many fellows on the sands and I couldn’t quite understand this. Once on the boat we got bombed again. You could hear the bombs going and the machine gun fire and to the medical sergeant I said, ‘When are we going?’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘You’re alright. You’re in a bloody bunk.’ He said, ‘There’s some more to get on yet.’ Anyway, we got, we set off and we went to Dover but they wouldn’t allow us in because there was an evacuation going on. We went to Newhaven. I then went to Barnet Hospital and I think I stayed about a month. I had an operation. They removed a bullet and the doctors were very interested and I said, ‘Well, they’re using our Hurricanes and that’s what shot me down.’ I think they were very interested. I then went to the squadron. A friend of mine took me out one day and we went to, went to the squadron which was at Kenley then. That was 615 and great to meet the boys and things but I rather felt a certain pal of mine sort of felt a bit guilty. He said something about guilty and I couldn’t quite understand and then I wondered whether it was quite the opposition flying this Hurricane. Anyway, that was as it maybe. I wouldn’t like to say too much about it.
Interviewer: But you’d got an idea that it was a mistake like that.
RP: Well, when, yeah —
Interviewer: There was a lot of it. Let’s face it.
RP: Yes. And of course it was in that stupid old Hurricane was black anyway you see. It had it’s —
Interviewer: Black was it?
RP: Oh yes.
Interviewer: This would be a good time to ask you what was the difference in flying the two blade fixed pitch Hurricane and the Rotol prop. Can you tell me something about that?
RP: Well, yes. I think this is a very simple one because if you’ve got a fixed pitched prop it’s like starting a car in top gear. One has to, one never gets any momentum for the first odd minute it might seem and as you know that these aircraft are rated. The Spitfire was rated at I think it was at seventeen thousand feet. Well, that meant you could land at that —
Interviewer: [unclear]
RP: The pitch was right for it.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: The same as you got in the [unclear] boats.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And anyway, that, that was that. Then I was, I went home for about three or four days and I was posted to Sealand. Well, this was one of the big mistakes I made because I went straight down to the squadron at Kenley, met Joe Kyall. I thought well I’m not going to be posted. I’m going to come back to the squadron. This was a stupid thing to do and anyway that’s what I did and I flew with the squadron for a month. I started, I should start about, I’ve no logbooks as you know. They were all burned.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: I’ve only got my final logbook that I happened to keep but I started about mid-July and I left the squadron on the 11th or 12th of August.
Interviewer: So you were very much involved in Battle of Britain.
RP: Well, yes. What we did start with when I got there the sweeps over France were really coming to an end or odd ones. It frightened me to death did these things. It was like poking a wasp’s nest with a stick really but anyway we didn’t go far in. We went most probably to Saint Omer, somewhere like that and went two or three sweeps at the most. Then we had as you know the Channel. They insisted on using the Channel and I had to deal with the cargo boats but I think once or twice insisted just to show the Germans that they could use it and we, and I can always remember the convoys. One was called Booty and the other one was called Crumbs, I think and we had a fighter with that one. Some 87s, JU87s came across.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: We didn’t bother with those and also we patrolled the Channel too. There weren’t, at that time we didn’t seem to meet so many fighters and things although the convoys had balloons on —
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: To stop the 87s and of course the, when the 87s came they were covered with 109s and we were at Hawkinge then. You could nearly hear them set off from France.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: The Spitfires came from further back to deal with the fighters. We got into one or two but nothing really serious until later on. I should say about August the 8th or something like that. Then we seemed to get in amongst them and it was pretty obvious things were starting. There again it was a matter of dogfights rather than meeting these great hordes of aircraft coming over as far as we were concerned.
[recording interrupted]
RP: I had left the squadron and the following day the aerodrome was badly bombed and 615 then went for a rest cure. I went up to Sealand. I did about a fortnight there. Then became a staff pilot at Cranwell College. As you know the staff path was you weren’t trained. You used to take aircraft up and they had Oxfords for testing and then I heard, oh of course we had all those wonderful maps. You remember them Jack you know. The colours used to put against what everybody had done and my job was to get this bloody job finished every day you see and having a flying commander that wasn’t too keen on me and I wasn’t too keen on him and I don’t think he thought my artistry was too good sometimes.
Interviewer: Part of Training Command —
[recording interrupted]
RP: Whether you realise number 2 air flyers then was at the other side of Cranwell. There were two —
Interviewer: Airfield.
RP: Airfields. And you couldn’t see me for dust fixing up a course on that instructional course. There was a thing there when I was a staff pilot on the other side night flying and this was of course why the Commonwealth Air Training Scheme really came in because we couldn’t do our night flying. We’d got we had two night flying fields reserved for us at Cranwell. We weren’t allowed to fly night flying at the College and we used to go down to these —
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Night flying fields and there was nothing from an intruder to pick one of one field and then another off ours.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: So we didn’t get the night flying —
Interviewer: Done.
RP: Done, and of course the stipulation was if you got a good fellow let him go after two landings. If you’ve got a bad fellow well give him another landing. Well, I think what happened actually if there was a bad fellow he went after two landings and if he was a good fellow you stuck another line with him. Anyway, when I passed my training course I went to Cranfield. Took a flight over. I must say it was quite a mystery to me with all this navigation and things because my navigation always was if the sun was in front of you when you set off for Christ’s sake make sure it’s behind you when you come back and if you hadn’t used half your fuel. But anyway I did learn a lot after Training Command. Then I went to —
Interviewer: What were you flying by the way?
RP: At Cranfield we were flying the old Oxford.
Interviewer: What did you do your FIS on? Oxfords or Masters?
RP: No. Oxfords mainly.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Oxfords mainly, you know. We had the Masters as well.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And then I went to Canada because I volunteered to go to Africa so I went to Canada.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Which was —
Interviewer: Did you go with an FTS or did you just come out to —
RP: No.
Interviewer: 34 you went to —
RP: Yes. We went to 34 FTS at Medicine Hat. No. Not with the first station on but we were the second which was rather enjoyable because when we landed at Montreal we then flew aircraft —
Interviewer: Ferried them out.
RP: Ferried them out.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And luckily I got that job to start with. I think we ferried about three lots up. We made one great mistake on the third lot. We spent too long in Montreal and then we lost our job by the time we left.
Interviewer: Was 34 at SFTS at Cranfield before it went out? Did it carry on?
RP: No, I—
Interviewer: Or was it a new school formed up?
RP: At Cranfield? Well, it was an SFTS. I can’t give you what number it was.
Interviewer: It went lock stock and barrel to —
RP: Oh, no. It wasn’t. No, it wasn’t the same one.
Interviewer: No.
RP: Oh no.
Interviewer: No.
RP: No. No.
Interviewer: No.
RP: Then I was, I had a flight at Medicine Hat and then a squadron and then luckily later on I took the CI job on as wing commander.
Interviewer: That’s where we met. At Medicine Hat.
RP: That’s right. Yes.
Interviewer: You were a squadron commander then when we met first.
RP: That’s right.
Interviewer: I came up with [unclear]
RP: Yes.
Interviewer: We flew together.
RP: I remember that well Jack because we swapped the Harvards with Moose Jaw. We got the Harvards and they got the Oxfords.
Interviewer: That’s right.
RP: And we were very lucky really because we had a lot of trouble with the Oxfords. They hadn’t air cleaners on and they all got off the ground in dust storms and things and we were very pleased to see them go because we’d had trouble with them and I think at Moose Jaw they even broke up because the wood had got perished.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Or I understood the [pause] I must say the Harvards were [unclear] and I always remember the flight with you because I hadn’t done aerobatics for so long but you and I went up to do some and I must say mine were shocking.
Interviewer: I remember you saying that I was going to show you some aerobatics and I already knew you were a Battle of Britain pilot and I thought —
RP: Gosh.
Interviewer: I was a little —
RP: Apprehensive.
Interviewer: I was.
RP: Yes.
Interviewer: Anyhow, they were great days.
RP: Great days. Then that would be in May 1942. No. ’41.
Interviewer: ’41 when you went out there.
RP: That’s right.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: ’41. ’42 when I met you.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And I came back in November ’43.
Interviewer: I met you again at Hutton Cranswick Airport.
RP: That’s right. You were on fighters but then I had a different job altogether then. I went for a BAT course. That was one of those blind approach —
[recording interrupted]
RP: The BAT course was at Grantham. I don’t think, I think it was about a month or a six week course. I may be wrong about that. Then went to an OTU at Barford St Johns and we had the —
Interviewer: Where is Barford St Johns?
RP: It’s near Banbury, and then we had the Wellingtons which were a wonderful aircraft to fly.
Interviewer: Why, why back on to bombers? Did you —
RP: Oh, this is rather interesting because when we came back from Canada we, we went down to Air Ministry and I met a wing commander there and he said, ‘Well, what, you know, what do you want to go on?’ And I said, ‘Well, fighters.’ And he said, ‘Gosh, we can’t have you on fighters or something.’ He said, ‘There’s no room there.’ He said, ‘There are plenty of [unclear]
Interviewer: You were a wing commander at this time.
RP: A wing commander, yes. And I said what about PREU? He said, ‘Oh no.’ He said, ‘There’s no place there but —’ he said, ‘As you say you volunteer to come back —' I’ll tell you about this volunteering Jack but anyway he said, ‘Seeing as you volunteered to come back on ops,’ he said, ‘I’ll give you the option of having bombers or heavy bombers so I mean I —
Interviewer: [laughs] You chose heavy bombers.
RP: I still volunteered very much to my fright because at that time the losses were tremendous and I’d also lost my brother about six months before on bombers. I’ll tell you about what happened at Medicine Hat. People used to, the fellows used to chatter in the Mess about they wished they could get on ops and when I became CI I thought well I’ll see what I can do for these chaps. And I had them in individually and made a list out and Tommy Adams was the adjutant at the time. As you know there was a hatch between the CI and the adjutant’s office and I’d given him this to type out. I noticed most people wanted to go on Coastal Command which seemed to be quite a long course on navigation as you know and I just said, and I went to the hatch and I said to Tom, I said, ‘Well to make this a little more authentic you’d better put my name on top and put fighters after it.’ And this was done and of course I was the poor bugger that went. Was one of the first to leave. Anyway, that’s as it may be. We trained at the OTU training as everybody knows. We had one or two frights night flying. There was one night we shouldn’t have been flying when it was terrible weather and I gave a mayday and it was actually somebody, I was given permission to land and the fellow came in, I luckily just saw him and I opened the throttles out and did an overshoot and of course I hadn’t opened the gills out on the engine and one got really red hot and it frightened me. I gave a mayday and anyway when I finally landed and got into —
Interviewer: The dispersal.
RP: The dispersal. I got chewed up over this and I thought right. I’ll alter it anyway and I got down. The funny thing was the fellow that chewed me up finally came to my squadron when I got a squadron of bombers and he had one rather unfortunate deal. But anyway that’s by the by. Then on to four engines flying on Stirlings. A most extraordinary aircraft. Built like submarines.
Interviewer: Did you enjoy flying Stirlings?
RP: I enjoyed, I enjoyed crew flying. I learned quite a lot of flying by trying to teach other people to fly and from their mistakes I learned a tremendous amount about flying and thoroughly enjoyed it. We then did a course on Stirlings at Winthorpe. Then we went to a Lanc to get experience. A Lanc finishing sort of place. Then went to the squadron. I took a flight over at the squadron. I did —
Interviewer: Which squadron was this?
RP: This was 61 at Skellingthorpe.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: Again lucky. I keep saying lucky because I’ve been born lucky and I hope to God it sticks to me. It was right in Lincoln and we [unclear] flying most of 5 Group places.
Interviewer: The edge of —
RP: We were all over the place you know. Out in the wilds. But this was very useful for recreation purposes as you’ll understand Jack. I did twenty eight trips in all and I was sort of hoping to get my thirty done.
Interviewer: You were, you say you took over a flight. You were —
RP: I —
Interviewer: You were a squadron leader then were you?
RP: I was a squadron, back to squadron leader.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Yes. And then within two weeks I took over from a, from the CO Arthur Doubleday and then I took the squadron over.
Interviewer: As a wing commander.
RP: As a wing commander and had it for six or seven months.
Interviewer: Was Arthur Doubleday an Australian?
RP: Yes. Yes, He was. This of course was very difficult because a lot of Australians, it was a cosmopolitan squadron with —
Interviewer: Which was the best.
RP: Well, yes you’ve got all breeds. Canadians and Czechs, Polish and everything else. But the difficulty taking over I’m sure that there was a certain amount of suspicion when they looked at me when Arthur, the Australian was leaving and I was taking over and unfortunately or fortunately for me I suppose I had the Air Force Cross and it rather tapes you as an instructor and they thought this bloody instructor what will he be able to do?
Interviewer: You got your AFC in Medicine Hat.
RP: In Medicine Hat.
Interviewer: Was that for a particular incident?
RP: No, it wasn’t. It was a long service medal. It was really I think Jack it was given because they had tolerated me so long. Anyway —
Interviewer: This was 5 Group wasn’t it?
RP: This was 5 Group. We always reckoned we were doing specialist jobs. I think we were in a way. There were a lot of stupid things that I felt was happening. I’ll always remember —
[recording paused]
RP: There were a lot of difficult, hard trips. I always found Jack, you know with these trips there was something peculiar about it. You got in the aircraft and you know you used to start the aircraft up an hour before take-off to see everything else was alright and taxiing out was sort of a bit of a queer feeling and then you turned around, got the green light and as soon as the wheels left the aerodrome —
Interviewer: Things were normal.
[recording paused]
RP: Then on the trip, the first two or three trips were a bit alarming right from the word go but after a bit you got used to it and as long as you had a good crew and I had an excellent crew with a wonderful navigator which was nearly the be all and end all and of course we used Gee. We had H2S on our aircraft for the start and then they took them off because they found the enemy fighters used to, could home in on these scanners.
Interviewer: Did you have Lanc 1s or 3s?
RP: 3s.
Interviewer: Yes. With the [unclear]
RP: Yes.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: And then you’d go on and it wasn’t until H, and that’s H minus fifteen which was of course was fifteen minutes before the attack was started by the main force. But that is when RT silence was broken and you saw the flares go down from the —
Interviewer: Markers.
RP: No. From the —
Interviewer: PFF.
RP: Yes. The Pathfinders. And then you had the master bombers going in and it really was excellently done but at that moment as soon as RT silence was broken then perspiration used to come off me. Targets were different. The French targets on the buzz bombs sites or marshalling yards. As you must realise we had to be very careful with those [pause] with those targets and they were marked direct by the master bomber and then some, well first wave would drop, drop bombs on them on the actual target and then of course we got brick dust and everything else. And then we had to orbit and this was a terrifying thing. Orbiting around the target and I saw many aircraft, I say many and I really mean it just locked together in —
Interviewer: Collisions.
RP: Collisions.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
RP: And it could be up to a quarter of an hour before they could mark the target again. Now, a German target was totally different especially if it was a burn up because they marked the town either direct to start with and then the pinpoints that we had to actually bomb were marked second and if they couldn’t get them marked by the time we were over they used to let us go and bomb on green. We had some long trips. My longest one was Königsberg. Nearly eleven hours.
Interviewer: Really?
RP: Which was quite a lot.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: When you think we hadn’t a second pilot.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Of course, in the old days in the twin engine bombers they had two pilots and they found this was terribly expensive —
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: On personnel and when they got the four engine bombers they had the one pilot. This, this was a bit of a strain really. And George. You couldn’t use George because we had a full bomb load and they didn’t work. They worked coming back but there was almost a danger of having George in.
Interviewer: Did your flight engineer fly at all? You know just —
RP: No. I, my bomb aimer thought he could a bit. He had been on a course. I think he’d done an elementary course and got turned off.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: It was useful when you wanted to go and have a pee down in the can at the bottom.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: But he wasn’t reliable enough to leave altogether like you see.
Interviewer: We’re talking about spring of ’44 now are we? When you started on bombers.
RP: July. Yes. July.
Interviewer: ’44.
RP: And —
Interviewer: Of course, if you were on buzz bomb sites it would be then. Yes.
RP: Yes. July the 18th was my first trip on Caen in the morning.
Interviewer: Oh yes.
RP: This was a most spectacular trip and of course I should think the whole of the RAF went on to it. It was just as dawn was breaking and we finished and then the Yanks came over so there must have been two thousand aircraft in all bombing that target.
Interviewer: Did you do many daylights?
RP: Yes. Quite [pause] quite a few. You know they always used to say, ‘Oh well, daylights. You’ll be getting a DSO.’ And that meant Daylight Sorties Only. But —
Interviewer: They only counted as a third of an op to start with in some of the groups I know. Daylight.
RP: Well, that I wouldn’t know.
Interviewer: Or was it the French trips only counted as a third? I know there was something.
RP: Yes. That was never brought to my notice anyway.
Interviewer: You did twenty.
RP: I did —
Interviewer: What did your tour consist of?
RP: I had twenty eight. I did twenty eight trips in all. I can always remember saying to the adjutant I said, ‘Look, how many aircraft have we lost in the squadron since I’ve been CO?’ And he came back and he said, ‘Twenty six.’ So that was quite a bundle and it was frightening. I was ready to come off. Funnily enough the squadron leader of 9 Squadron, Jim Bazin was on fighters in France with me in 607 Squadron. I heard that he’d gone to headquarters and they’d said, ‘Well, now you’d better, you’ve got to give up you squadron now.’ Because as you know 9 Squadron went with six —
Interviewer: 617.
RP: 617. ‘Give up your squadron because you have done eighteen trips.’ Mind you they were harder trips than we were doing and they were using the Tallboys.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And he said, ‘Well, what about Pexton?’ He said, ‘He’s done twenty eight.’ Because we had a score board at headquarters and we kept having a look at that as you can imagine.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And they said, ‘Well, what about him?’ He said, ‘His second tour. I was on fighters with him.’ So I was pulled off straight away and I must say Jack I’m reasonably thankful in the finish because I was getting a bit of a twitch.
Interviewer: What did you owe your success to? I mean, surviving.
RP: The pupils. The pupils I’d trained. I learned a lot from them. I had an excellent navigator and I had an excellent crew. Everybody was left to do their job and was never interrupted. I think a lot of fellows came from Training Command and I was asked this when doing my training. Could I give any reason for Training Command fellows, the losses being high for fellows having such high calibre of flying and it wasn’t until I got halfway through my tour of ops I realised a lot of these fellows were giving the rest of the crew an inferiority complex. Well, this is alright during training but it’s no good on ops because every, it takes all your time —
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: Time to fly. I got I never did any sort of strenuous exercise or anything because I perspired so much over the target that I kept my weight down.
Interviewer: You didn’t try to be a night fighter as well I gather.
RP: No. No. No. Oh no. No [pause] When I was interviewed by our AOC —
Interviewer: Cochrane.
RP: Yes.
Interviewer: Sir Ralph died the other day.
RP: So you were telling me. I can always remember him saying, ‘Look you’re one duty is to bomb. The other one is to fetch night fighters down.’ Well, I never thought this was a feasible —
Interviewer: Exercise.
RP: Exercise, because after all was said and done we only had 303s and they could fire at a hell of a longer range than any [unclear]
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: And also we were carrying tracers which I didn’t like because watching people go down and which one did with this sort of experience you’ll notice the tracers would come out of, some small tracers seemed to come out of the sky and then some big ones would answer and then there was a Lanc on fire. No Jack.
Interviewer: So what was your philosophy then?
RP: Not, not to shoot at the enemy unless it’s absolutely point blank or you know, if the fellow is creeping —
Interviewer: Not to spray around —
RP: Oh no.
Interviewer: The side of his —
RP: Bloody stupid is that game.
Interviewer: Yeah. And as the CO you had a complete crew then. You just didn’t take a nav leader and have a scratch crew.
RP: Oh no.
Interviewer: You —
RP: I had an absolute crew although I did fly two or three times with with other crews because you had a second dickie to start with. I mean that meant you went with an experienced crew and I learned quite a lot on that trip. Really what not to do. And then I did fly with other crews about two or three times.
Interviewer: And how did you, I know you only flew the Stirling in training but how did the two four-engine aircraft compare?
RP: Oh, there was no comparison at all because the Stirling was a terrifically sturdily built aircraft but God it was heavy and I can’t remember how many petrol tanks it had in. I should think about twenty.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And all the petrol cocks were at the back, at the back of the aircraft or halfway down the fuselage and the engineer was gosh [unclear] he did —
Interviewer: [unclear]
RP: Yes. He had to cross feed.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: Oh, it was a hell of a job and they always reckoned if anything went wrong that you had eleven seconds to get out of them. It would seem very impractical and most probably improbable.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: The Lanc was a wonderful aircraft. You could fly it solo and you could reach all the petrol cocks on the right. If you [unclear] harness. There was nothing to take a man from one spot to another on the run if you wanted to.
Interviewer: Did you have any, did you get shot up at all by anybody? [unclear]
RP: No. We got, we got shot at and we got marked but we had no casualties. We had one near casualty where shrapnel entered this fellow’s helmet but didn’t enter his head and that was my wireless op. And the last trip I did was to [pause - pages turning] just look this one up [pause] was to Munich. Now this was rather interesting because we set off and we went over the Alps. Then we bombed Munich and came back by Switzerland and then back over the Alps again. As you know on bombers you never went straight to your target. You always did dog legs.
Interviewer: Dog legs.
RP: I had a [pause], and it was quite a time before I realised this, I had for the last three trips had trouble to hear what was going on and I had my wireless mechanic had been changed and he tuned my wireless in at the lowest point. My previous one always used to leave it on full volume and I didn’t twig for this and this Munich trip we were told that the master bomber would tell us to rather go above the cloud. There was expected to be cloud there and there wasn’t and I unfortunately didn’t go above and I really saw the whole thing but I was very much a lone aircraft. But when I got there the searchlights were just stood on end. Their guns had nearly given up firing and when I got back I said, ‘Well, we really have beaten them now.’ It was the first time we felt we’d beaten them. But what I was going to tell you going over Switzerland to see everything lit up and we chatted away and my mid-upper gunner said, ‘Well, look, have I time to go and use the can?’ I said, ‘Yes, that’s alright.’ And as you know as a captain of a crew you call them up every five minutes or ten minutes to see if everybody is alright one by one and I’d forgotten to do this and we went over the Alps. It was a marvellous sight and then I called these different members of the crew up and I didn’t get any reply from the mid-upper gunner and so I sent my engineer down and the poor fellow had passed out on the —
Interviewer: On the elsan.
RP: Well, he hadn’t got as far as that.
Interviewer: Oh.
RP: We found out later because we had little oxygen bottles you know that lasted about ten minutes and you were of the main and took one with you. Well, he had forgotten to do this. And anyway we revived him or at least the rest of the crew did. we got him stuck up in his mid-upper turret and we were going nicely over France and there was a hell of a yell and everything else. Frightened me to death and found there was nothing attacking us and they went to see what had happened. Well, this poor fellow pee’d himself and having an electrically heated boots his feet were on fire.
[recording paused]
RP: That was my last trip and then I went to 22 Training Group to see the AOC there. That was at Grantham and he said he’d found it terribly difficult to know what to do with me because once a wing commander on a bomber squadron he said we never demote anybody and it was very difficult. Anyway, I told him he needn’t worry because I was ready to go back to farming but that didn’t seem to work.
Interviewer: Where had you got to then? Was it ‘45 by then?
RP: Yes. I’m sorry. I finished my tour in February.
Interviewer: February of ’45.
RP: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: And I was finally given, Jack a station called Condover which was —
Interviewer: Satellite.
RP: Yes. A satellite to Tern Hill. Well, my ideas of the war then as you know it had finished. VE had finished and or after about a month of being there and we had Harvards and I used to go and visit all my pals all over the place. An upsetting thing happened. We had an AOC’s inspection. I don’t know why that happened and then you know there is always a [work and picks] man about and I was alarmed to see how the camp had really gone downhill. The grease traps and everything apparently hadn’t been attended to. I didn’t know what these damned things were but there was a lot of nasty stuff floating about by the Messes and things. There was a hut missing. This was a bit unfortunate. It had nothing to do with the farmers actually because we had rather a lot of officers from the Army. As you know they were training a lot of Army officers then.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: And the officers mess was full and they did ask me if they could move a hut that had been this [unclear] and move it up to the officer’s quarters and I said, ‘Oh yes, do as you like.’ And of course it was one of these land huts that was made of [pause]
Interviewer: Asbestos.
RP: Asbestos. Right across. Well, you know what asbestos is like. I mean the whole thing. I think it just looked like a little guard hut what was left which was just enough to explain that it hadn’t been sold to a local farmer. Anyway, they were very kind. They closed the station down and it moved to [unclear] and I wasn’t. I was then made chief instructor at Tern Hill where I finished up and I went back to farming in September and I was pleased to get out.
Interviewer: Well, you had quite a varied career. Not a varied career but a varied flying career. As much as anyone I would think. You started off on B2s.
RP: That’s right.
Interviewer: Went on to the Harts.
RP: Hart Variants.
Interviewer: Hart Variants. Then on to Spitfire 1s in 1939.
RP: That’s right.
Interviewer: As a VR.
RP: That’s right. I think I was about maybe one of the first.
Interviewer: Then joined the auxiliaries.
RP: That’s it.
Interviewer: An auxiliary squadron rather.
RP: A squadron. Yes.
Interviewer: That was the first time you’d been out of Yorkshire I suggest when you went down to [unclear]
RP: Well, getting, getting that way anyway, Jack.
Interviewer: And then then down to Gladiators in France.
RP: That’s right.
Interviewer: Then up to Hurricanes.
RP: Yes.
Interviewer: Then Training Command in Canada.
RP: Yeah.
Interviewer: And then Wellingtons, Stirlings.
RP: Yeah.
Interviewer: And a tour on Lancasters.
RP: That’s right. And then back on to Training Command.
Interviewer: And then back on to Training Command.
RP: Yes. It was jolly interesting.
Interviewer: A flying farmer. Yeah.
RP: A flying farmer. I know I’d got, I’d got into say quite a lot of scrapes and with senior officers and I think I was lucky there again because I used to, ‘Well, you have a go.’ Which I don’t mind saying. I think sometimes I was even trying to get out of the service to get back to the farm. But it didn’t worry me and I think it was most probably helpful in a way because I never got severely reprimanded over what I said. But I did finish up by saying, ‘Well, look I’m only a pilot. I’m only a pilot by hobby and I’m a farmer by profession.
Interviewer: Yeah. I think you are, you are a great [unclear] no matter what you’re doing and you’ve always got a smile on your face when you say that. I think you get away with murder [laughs]
RP: Right. Well, I don’t know. I think sometimes when something serious happens I always laugh.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: It’s just one of those things most probably some people do and some people don’t.
Interviewer: Did you, did you go in for civil flying at all after the war? Did you do a little flying here?
RP: I did up at Speeton yes but that, that sort of went bust about three times. It wasn’t very clever and we used to get most of the people from Butlins camp you know. Well, the idea there was really good because we’d go down on Saturday night and go on the [unclear] and say we are the flying personnel or whatever it was and do come and join us at Speeton and of course on Sunday we got a few there and we gave them jolly good long trips. On Monday we got more and we had to cut the trips down a bit and when it came to Wednesday we seemed to have a lot of people. Then we had very short trips and we never got anybody on Thursdays and Fridays. This was the point.
Interviewer: Yeah.
[recording interrupted]
Interviewer: If you had to do it all again which would you opt for? The heavies, the fighters or —
RP: Well, obviously —
Interviewer: Or stay at Training Command.
RP: Yes. Obviously, of the two I should go for heavies now anyway.
Interviewer: You would.
RP: I’m still, well, look at my age.
Interviewer: Ah yes, yes. No, but —
RP: Looking back.
Interviewer: Looking back.
RP: Oh, fighters.
Interviewer: Fighters was the —
RP: At the same age I couldn’t have, I couldn’t have been on a better thing. Just what I wanted but little did I realise how little I knew about the job when it actually came about. We all felt that. There was no doubt about it. When you first went into action you nearly froze on the stick and wondered what the hell it was all about.
Interviewer: Did you not say, I don’t know whether it was on the record but you were doing readiness standby in a Gladiator in France or in Croydon, at Kenley having not even gone solo in the thing up until then?
RP: Well, this is true.
Interviewer: You hadn’t flown a Gladiator at all.
RP: No I hadn’t flown —
Interviewer: But you were doing standby.
RP: I was doing standby.
Interviewer: That was at Kenley or —
RP: No, that was Croydon.
Interviewer: Croydon. Yeah.
RP: Kenley was u/s at the time. The beginning of the war.
Interviewer: And of course it was all in the old vic formation in threes.
RP: We were in threes.
Interviewer: Yes. Yes.
RP: Yes.
Interviewer: All your fighter work was in threes.
RP: Well, yes. Could never come out in twos.
Interviewer: No.
RP: There was several, you know it was another thing too. Pilots got very short even in my time. We lost a lot of pilots and we were training fellows, squadron trained who had only been on the Hurricane maybe for about two or three hours.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: At the most and couldn’t do formation and we got these fellows. Now, what we did for their sakes as much as ours we used to put them on the back of the squadron and of course it did work sometimes when you got a terrific yell and you looked around and the poor fellow was, had been bitten off but I’m pretty right in saying we were told to put them up in the front because a lot of this was going on.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Survival is a wonderful thing you know.
Interviewer: Yes.
RP: Jack.
Interviewer: Yeah.
RP: And I always felt flying was just like playing rugger. As long as you, I always played in the scrum, keep in the scrum. If you just go around the outside you get a hell of a kick from somebody.
Interviewer: Yeah. Well it’s been awfully nice of you talking to me for such a long time Wing Commander Pexton and I think you are a lucky man to have such an interesting war and still come back to the same old farm and as we know you’ve made a great success of that as well. So all I can say is thank you very much indeed and come down and see us at the museum one of these days.
RP: Well, thank you very much, Jack for calling.