Discussion with Peter Spoden 2 January 2011
Title
Discussion with Peter Spoden 2 January 2011
Description
Invited to discuss the tactics of 100 Group and their effect on German night-fighter operations, Peter describes older Kammhuber line system of ground controlled intercepts. He also talks of different kinds 100 Group jamming and spoofing and its effectiveness, as well as several different German countermeasures. Peter describes the effect of use of window on Hamburg operations blinding German air and ground radars. He describes new tactics evolved and how a diversionary operation by Mosquito on Berlin resulted in 250 night fighters gathering there while Bomber Command attacked Peenemünde. He mentions use of female German ground controllers and possible British counter, as well as of better SN-2 radars use in finding bomber stream. He talks of 100 Group mounting spoof large raids, even though weather precluded Bomber Command operations to keep the Germans defences up. Peter mentions German exploitation of captured H2S and development of Naxos as well as other technical aids. He mentions that he could claim to be an Allied ace as he destroyed 10 German aircraft (four bale outs and six crashes).
Date
2011-01-02
Spatial Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:28:24 audio recording
Conforms To
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
SBondS-SpodenPv10016
Transcription
SB: Peter Spoden. 2nd of January 2011.
PS: Oh, Steve. Are you over? Happy New Year.
SB: And Happy New Year to you. How are you?
PS: I’m good so far.
SB: Good. A busy Christmas it sounded like.
PS: Yes. Well, very nice that you come up finally with a big talk. I’m ready.
SB: Ok, Peter. Well, many thanks for having a chat with me. As you know what I’m working on now is a book about 100 Group.
PS: Yeah.
SB: And we are particularly interested in a number of factors about it and one of them I mentioned in your, in the email exchange we had was about false messages by German speakers.
PS: Ah.
SB: Now, you said you, you experienced those. Can you just say a bit about that?
PS: Yeah. Well, let me see. Let’s start from how I came into the missions with the night fighter aircraft in mid of 1943 as you know.
SB: Yeah.
PS: You know, it had come earlier. But I don’t know is the old [unclear] You know, these round [nacht nacht]
SB: Yes.
PS: In other words there the Würzburg radar was looking for the enemy and one when Würzburg radar was working for the German night fighter.
SB: Yes.
PS: It was then the officer at the ground. The ground officer brought them together on a special table and then he talked to us, you know. He said ok, you know the system.
SB: Yes. Yes.
PS: We called it [nächthampfe ] or night fighting in the boxes you know.
SB: Yes, I understand.
PS: Yes. And they had about a hundred different boxes over the southern part of Germany, the Netherlands and France and in every one when the British came on there was a night fighter.
SB: Right.
PS: And this was the old system and as you know so if we had it on a very high frequency we had a contact with the ground controller.
SB: Right.
PS: And he said in German with the code words but very simple code words everybody who in German can find out what it is. [unclear] three hundred. [unclear] coast drei null null. Fly on a heading three zero zero and so on and now the distance is three kilometres. Now the target two kilometres. One kilometre. You should see them now.’ And at that time very often there came in the transmitting from somebody who was in the air too probably also on the same frequency and this probably was the fellows of your Group over there and [loooobabloooobalaloooba. Loooobabloooobalalooob] was being said there. Then this contact started and I lost the target.
SB: Oh, right. Ok. So this was jamming rather than —
PS: It was a jamming. That’s right.
SB: Ok.
PS: It was a jamming and that happened to me several times. However, we always had an alternate frequency right away and we changed over.
SB: Oh right.
PS: So that was our idea when the jamming came in and the operator behind me in a Messerschmitt 110 it was.
SB: Yes.
PS: Then he said, ‘That’s alright. I’ll change over, Leutnant. I’ll change over.’ Then I’d be controlling it. Oh yes. Somebody was interrupting the traffic but we still have you on the scopes. Here in the distance now and then everything went fine.
SB: Ok.
PS: Yeah, they thought that loooobabloooobalaloooba was the frequency. These guys were pretty clever, you know.
SB: Well, so were you always able to re-establish communication?
PS: I was very often we were establishing very quickly. We changed then five, six alternate frequencies we had available and this fellow must have understood my German and the German of the controller giving us distances to the target ahead of us and when it was close then he came in with the jamming, you know.
SB: Right. Right.
PS: So that was one deal which I have noticed here to give you some assistance.
SB: Ok.
PS: This is the fact that happened I think a hundred times.
SB: Yes.
PS: And it must be from the air. From a plane in the air on the same frequency because the ground frequencies from England were not strong enough to interrupt the ground controller.
SB: Right. Ok. Now, now talking to Bomber Command chaps they seemed to think that there were two systems they used. One was the wireless operator in the bomber would be scanning the frequencies to try and find the frequency that you were on.
PS: Yes.
SB: And when they found the frequency that you were transmitting on they had a microphone in one of the engine nacelles and they would tune that microphone in to your frequency and switch it on which would just give you a lot of noise.
PS: Oh yes.
SB: Which I guess might be one of the things that you were talking about there.
PS: Yes.
SB: The other system is there were there was one squadron, 101 Squadron that had German speaking operators in the aeroplanes.
PS: Yes.
SB: With the intention of transmitting false messages to you.
PS: Yes.
SB: Did you, are you aware of that? Or did you experience that as far as you know?
PS: That too. Very good you are asking me like this because that was the next progress now.
SB: Ok.
PS: That this Wilde Sau so called box night fighting.
SB: Yes.
PS: Was not effective anymore because since Hamburg and I was over this Hamburg attack you brought these aluminium foils.
SB: Window.
PS: Windows in ninety two million pieces they covered and then we were completely blind. Not only the night fighters with the Lichtenstein also the ground Würzburg was blind.
SB: Yes.
PS: Obviously the Windows and the reason for this you know I brought it in my book was that we had a traitor who was deserting to England with the Junkers 88 in, it was a couple of months before Hamburg. Three or four months.
SB: Yes.
PS: Peter Hinchcliffe told me. Peter Hinchcliffe was very well informed. I think he was also working in the Secret Service later on after the war. He told me that they checked the Junkers 88 right away when they, when they landed in Dyce it was, I think.
SB: Yes.
PS: You can read it in my book.
SB: Yes.
PS: You can see it was on I have even the page available for you. If you just have a short look on it you will find the whole deal from Hamburg. This is the page. Let me see. I have to get my glasses. Excuse me.
[pause]
PS: In my, in my book you do have it. The jamming. Page ninety one.
SB: Right.
PS: I have here and here another interesting thing which was done pretty clever. Right, ok so to answer your questions then we changed from the box system we changed to the Tame Boar.
SB: Yes.
PS: The Zahme Sau.
SB: Yes.
PS: In other words the British Royal Air Force did not come single they came in streams.
SB: Yes.
PS: And then the whole box system was in break from the 25th of 7 ’43 however years. Eighty five you should have a look too. That was the, the traitor deal with Oberleutnant Schmid. He flew to Dyce, Scotland with the complete Lichtenstein.
SB: Right.
PS: In May and in July we had, this is on page eighty five.
SB: Ok.
PS: So if you have a look in my book then you will find it.
SB: Ok.
PS: And ok from that time you know this man.
SB: Yes.
PS: He died, the old fellow he was aged ninety seven.
SB: Oh, he’s died now has he?
PS: Yes. I met him a few weeks before his death in [unclear]
SB: Yes.
PS: And we talked still and he told me very interesting thing about this Hamburg raid which is not known to the public that Goering talked to him and said, ‘Hermann, this attack on Hamburg by the British you know what it is?’ ‘No, Herr Reich Marshall I didn’t know.’ ‘You know what it is? It is like the earthquake from [unclear] in the last century. If we get another one like this we will lose the war,’ he said. Hermann told me that.
SB: Yes.
PS: And I did not bring it up but I can tell it to you. You may use it now. Use it. Goering said if we get another one like Hamburg, remember as you know was a complete disaster and the whole town burned down and we had forty five thousand people dead and so on. So in other words if we get another one like this and he said, Now, Herrman we have to do something about it.’ And Hermann came up with the Wilde Sau.
SB: Yes.
PS: The Wild Boar and we and the other pilots we were continuing then on Zahme Boar. Tame Boar.
SB: Yes.
PS: But this was meaning that now from the grounds of a big commando voice telling us all night it was, ‘Fly now to Berlin. There is an attack on Berlin.’
SB: Right.
PS: Go now to Radio Beacon [Berta] Bravo Berta where you have to wait for this big attack on Berlin. They were hoping that the Brits were coming to Berlin.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
PS: But over Berlin we were night fighters. Two hundred and fifty night fighters. We saw a hell of fire. Cascades of fires but nothing at the ground.
SB: Right.
PS: And I heard later on by Middlebrook, the historian told me that he had written a book about it. That on the, this is on the, let me see on page ninety one I told you already that eight Mosquitoes made a hell of fireworks over Berlin and they were assembling two hundred and fifty German night fighters including me of course. Then by sudden I saw in the north about a hundred kilometres away real fire. Real ground fire like usual if the sky is clear above that high altitude. You see those things about two or three hundred kilometres away. The targets burning.
SB: Yes.
PS: So I thought what was it. They were five hundred or six hundred Lancasters gone over Denmark to Peenemunde.
SB: Oh right.
PS: And I made a note of it ready for you. five hundred and sixty over the enemy came with five hundred and eighty Mosquitoes and this is presented by Martin Middlebrook in his book the “Peenemunde.”
SB: Yes.
PS: You know, and so I was speeding up then with full of circle and forget about what they were saying. They were still, ‘Stand by over Berlin. Stand by over Berlin. Berlin is attacked. Wait over Berlin.’ A large number waited over Berlin. Not me. I went away because I missed this in Hamburg with full power and in twenty minutes I got my first shot over Peenemunde as you know. The 18th of August ’43 it was.
SB: Right. Right.
PS: And that’s your turn. The next question is ahead now this is the ground controller speaking with a loud German words commanding us all and now covering your question the British came up about the same time also with commandos in German. However [laughs] in some cases you could hear the British accent. They have, the Brits have a problem with speaking the R you know.
SB: Right.
PS: The Germans say, [unclear] but the British say [unclear] which means we should all land.
SB: Ah, ok.
PS: Then the ground controller, the German controller came up and said, ‘No. No. That is the British. No. Forget about it. [unclear].’ You understand my German?
SB: Yes. I, yes. Yes.
PS: And stay in the air.’ [unclear] [laughs] only in some cases we landed. [unclear] means the mission is finished, you know .
SB: Yes.
PS: And we landed and on then there were men on the ground they said there is a whole attack you know on such and such town and you guys will have to go.
SB: That’s really interesting.
PS: [unclear] comes the story which you have to check and [unclear] if you notice for you which you must check.
SB: Right.
PS: The commander that was the Austrian fellow. A fellow, the commander and he made, I remember he made a briefing about five or six o’clock in the evening said, ‘Well, you know what this night is going to happen? Don’t listen to any German masculine voice anymore. Don’t do this. Only listen to our German ladies.’ To our Deutch frauleins. ‘If they speak this is on the ground because the British are interrupting us so much,’ he said, oh he said, ‘the British might as well be here.’ [unclear] telling you that is the truth. This is real. So, they have trained the German frauleins. They will speak now the text but normally the German masculine, the German man did this to us.
SB: Oh right. Right.
PS: Here comes the big surprise. There was a wonderful accent free lady talking to us [unclear] Right away. So we did and we were mixed up. So what is this? And here I learned later on but here I have no proof that in one of the few Lancasters I shot down was a feminine body. I am not sure if this is true. This you must check with your guys.
SB: Oh right.
PS: Because the, there hadn’t been feminine voices. Also speaking to us with a clear accent free situation what I personally think that day these are probably Jewish emigrants, the daughter of famous Jewish emigrants in England.
SB: Right.
PS: He was going with against us of course and she was speaking very accent free and by this accident the girl did not come back and the father emigrated and the father later on after ’45 he could come back to Germany he want to slow down the old story. You know what I mean. He did not want that this story is being known. Maybe this man go a, became a professor whatever. A leading person like whatever. Like Willy Brandt.
SB: Yes.
PS: As you know he was in Norwegian as a soldier as well.
SB: Yes.
PS: [unclear]
SB: Yes. Yes.
PS: And they covered the whole thing from the British side like as you know the files of [unclear] have been stopped until 2015 by Mrs Thatcher you know.
SB: Right. Oh, right. Ok.
PS: You know that. This is possible but so I’m not sure but I remember the feminine voice giving us commandos.
SB: Yes.
PS: Did, and later on they told us, ‘Well, why did you land, you guys?’ And so on.
SB: Oh ok. I’ll have to try and dig into that one.
PS: Yeah. You should dig in this. This is very interesting.
SB: There’s another thing I’ve read somewhere. I don’t know how true it is but in one of the books somewhere I read that on occasion if say the target was Munich then you would get Bavarian music.
PS: Yeah. That’s right.
SB: Is that right?
PS: That’s a fact. That’s a fact. What I told you before was the feminine.
SB: Yes.
PS: [unclear] but the fact is that because of the feel of the many jammings and the many, the many wrong informations we received in the air the Germans broadcasting system said that we follow now this this bulk of five hundred Lancasters. We can hear them. We can. They are over Essen now [unclear] We hear now music from the Ruhrland. Now, they are over Cologne and now you hear [unclear] carnival sounds over Cologne. We will make you hear the Bavarian.
SB: Right. Right. Ok.
PS: This was a very, what shall I say was not much help.
SB: Right.
PS: There was help for me as a night fighter was when I had a good radio operator. He also could even help us when the jamming was too serious by Windows. You know how?
SB: How?
PS: The British shovelled out the Windows of the plane.
SB: Yes.
PS: But the plane gives a trail. So a good radio pal of mine we found this out. Should we fly to the left? ‘No, to the right. [unclear] Oh I have a mix of Windows now. Mix. Now, more to the left.’ Then I could go into the bomber stream as well. You know that.
SB: Ah. That’s, that’s really interesting. I’m glad you said that because one of the questions I had for you —
PS: I think —
SB: Did you know Hauptmann Hagar. Johannes Hagar.
PS: Yeah. I remember.
SB: Well, my friend who is researching this book with me spoke to his bordfunker a couple of years ago.
PS: Yeah.
SB: And he said that he could distinguish between a bomber formation or a simulated Window spoof using his SN2.
PS: Yes. You could do this. Yes.
SB: You can. Right.
PS: Well, now that Lichtenstein was out over [unclear] and we changed to the larger antenna of SN2 and on the SN2 we had five, six different receiving frequencies.
SB: Right.
PS: We could change. But the good [unclear] on this was known as German night these things go within a couple of hours.
SB: Yes.
PS: Everybody is telling every make phone calls. We can follow now the, we can find the bomber stream if you try to find the maximum Windows. Then mostly the Lancaster in the bomber stream was shovelling out the Windows.
SB: Right.
PS: But in other cases as you know the bomber stream was split into three different parties. This is they came over with five hundred, six hundred. Then two hundred to Essen, two hundred to Mülheim, two hundred to Cologne and so on.
SB: Right.
PS: And it was very difficult of course.
SB: Sure. Now, now one of the things that they say quite a lot about the 100 Group is that sometimes if the weather was not good enough for a main force attack they would still launch a few 100 Group aircraft just to throw out lots of Window and make you think that an attack was coming. To, to keep you guys in the air and keep you tired.
PS: That’s right. True. Oh, I mean I have more than a hundred real missions. A lot of, very often I went up and nothing happens so far.
SB: Right.
PS: But then it was that we were misled. We were misled by fireworks. We were misled by such as those guys who were imitating a big stream without any, and it was nothing you know. In other words the Brits were very clever at this.
SB: Right. Right. Yeah. Ok.
PS: So many different waves. Centimetre waves and meter waves and so on.
SB: Yeah.
PS: It was a fight between the engineers too.
SB: Oh, absolutely.
PS: We found your H2S the so-called Rotterdam. You heard about it.
SB: Yes.
PS: They found it in Netherlands as it was the radar you had there to find a very modern radar circling from the bottom of the Lancaster.
SB: Yes.
PS: And so that you could receive all these strands.
SB: Yes.
PS: Across streets and so on.
SB: Yes. Yes.
PS: Then within just a few days we got a so-called Naxos. You have heard about this?
SB: I have.
PS: Naxos was a receiver for this H2S.
SB: Ah right.
PS: Now, we were flying low and when the radio operator said, ‘Ok, you have a target now. He must be, must be above us here switching on his radar. Left. Left. Right. Right and I was climbing in this column until I saw the Lancaster.
SB: Right. Right.
PS: [unclear] found out very late. Then they switched. Of course they switched off then.
SB: Yes.
PS: They did not have it on. But in some cases they had the radar on all the time.
SB: Right.
PS: They were easy prey, you know. You could get, I think I shot down at least five or ten by this.
SB: Right. Right.
PS: Low flying and then the radio operator, he was an expert. He must have been an expert otherwise [unclear] for the pilot. He said, ‘Fly up. Fly up. More up. More up. More to the left. More. In they come.’ And then I looked only upwards and I saw then the big shadow. He did not know. He did not see me.
SB: Right.
PS: He only can see you if you were on the same altitude.
SB: Yes.
PS: You know if you, if you are below they never can see you, you know. If you go in the woods it’s always dark in the ground.
SB: Sure.
PS: And very light if you look up at the sky with the stars and so —
SB: Sure. Yes.
PS: It’s only in the air too if you are flying, if you are coming from low the gunner cannot see you. Nobody can see you but they haven’t any guns on the Lancaster below. You know that.
SB: Oh, I know some did. Yes. Yes.
PS: Only a few.
SB: Yeah.
PS: Only a few.
SB: Yes.
PS: Not many that did have guns. They were not shooting from the, from the bottom.
SB: No. No.
PS: From the rear gunner. The rear gunner was shooting and the front gunner could of course on top of the —
SB: So were you using Schrage musik mostly, Peter?
PS: Pardon?
SB: Were you using Schrage musik mostly?
PS: Obviously, yes.
SB: Yes.
PS: At the end because that was the easiest way for us.
SB: Sure.
PS: I was not attacking from the rear anymore.
SB: No.
PS: Because from the rear these guys were on the ball too. They were shooting either way, you know.
SB: Sure.
PS: And then at the end of the war there were also two or three together.
SB: Yes.
PS: Other guys were protecting the other one and looking around him. If somebody came from the rear. Did you see my last YouTube on my web page? On shrage musik.
SB: Yes, I did. Yes.
PS: Did you? It’s on YouTube. Somebody brought it in. I didn’t know. It’s not a bad, I went to Canada a few years ago —
SB: Yes.
PS: And somebody made us send this picture up and they are explaining about Schrage musik. About the slanting curve guns. Yes.
SB: Yes. Yes. Did you tend to use the same aeroplane or did you use —
PS: Oh, we changed. I’m, I’m an ace in the American way. I shot down at least ten German planes. I jumped out four times. Four time. I crash landed several times and the next day I had another plane.
SB: Right.
PS: But if you were an ace you got a plane right away.
SB: Right.
PS: In the air. At the end only the, the aces, it’s a terrible expression by the way.
SB: Yes. I know. Yes.
PS: I hated to say it but I don’t know another one. [unclear] I’m good with many claims. Is that better?
SB: Right. Right.
PS: They only got fewer. Not the other guys.
SB: Yes.
PS: There were only three, four at the end of that in Bavaria.
SB: Yes.
PS: Who were allowed to. I remember Augsburg in March ’45 only three planes. I was with another officer and with another [unclear]. There would be three planes up in the air to protect Augsburg on the 17th of March 1945.
SB: Yeah.
PS: There was against five hundred that was nothing you know. Even more dangerous in those days, the last month was the fact that you couldn’t get in the air but it was already over the fields.
SB: Right.
PS: Waiting for you.
SB: Yeah.
PS: And you needed light to get up in the air.
SB: Sure. Yes.
PS: We were taking off with one light. With one light serving you. Here’s the runway and then we took off and then you must fly very low because these fellows had a wonderful radar and they got you up right away. It was the same when you were ready to land. Then [unclear] they were already up in the air waiting.
SB: Yes.
PS: Then you hardly can land on a dark field. You must have a little bit of light. But at that time you know it was terrible.
SB: So these were the Mosquitoes waiting for you were they?
PS: Sure.
SB: Yes.
PS: They were waiting and ready and we had one deal was that when we were approaching then we knew we had a [unclear] [pause]the lighting system.
SB: Right.
PS: We could send these sky markers how do you say? I don’t know the expression.
SB: Ok.
PS: Anyhow, the, yeah it was, that was —
SB: Yes.
PS: Very low but you can stay low too.
SB: You mentioned homing on H2S. What about Monica? Were you aware of Monica?
PS: Yes.
SB: And the same deal I guess was it?
PS: Yeah.
SB: That you could —
PS: We had one from the rear if somebody was coming. With [unclear] you could hear it in your headset. If somebody was coming we had a, we had a radar behind us and a person as well, you know to search us.
SB: Yes.
PS: And we had all the time the engineers were working very hard. [unclear] I think is the name.
SB: Yes.
PS: Very hard earned but I was not successful. The best deal for me was Naxos and the H2S you know but I’ve told you before.
SB: Yes. Yes.
PS: That was for me and you know the radio operator they were scientists as well.
SB: Yeah. Well, indeed yes. That’s right. Yes.
PS: The engineers. They were working on the tubes you know. They had tubes in those days. They don’t have a television set yet.
SB: No. Quite. Quite. Well, the last question I have really goes back to the aircraft you had. Did they all have the same armament fit on your unit so you know if you jumped out of one 110 into another one would it be fitted with exactly the same armament or did you have any say in what you wanted?
PS: You mean the ammunition?
SB: Yeah. Well yes either the —
PS: Because the man who is working on the ammunition we call it in Germany even mixer. There was a man who give you, we had different ammunition was received. One with the, with the lighting system, with the [unclear] system.
SB: Oh, tracers. Yeah.
PS: Anyway, and one first of all.
SB: Right.
PS: And one fire and so on.
SB: Right.
PS: It was ridiculous. I normally preferred without any fire. Just ack.
SB: Right.
PS: Because then the other guy see if you hide away and you look in the air and sometimes especially over a burning town —
SB: Yes.
PS: It was like daylight you know.
SB: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Sure.
PS: Gathered and shooting. Everybody knows but forget about it. Do you see I’m still getting excited.
SB: Well, that’s tremendous, Peter. You’ve answered all the questions I’ve got written down here. That’s fantastic.
PS: Sure. Anyway, don’t hesitate to call me. I mean I always have time for you. You know that, Steve.
SB: Oh, that’s marvellous. Thank you, Peter. Ok. Many thanks and best regards and I’ll talk to you soon.
PS: Yeah. Good. And give my regards to Christine and tell her the old man is still alive.
SB: I will. I will. All the best.
PS: Yeah, I’ll see you.
SB: Bye.
PS: Oh, Steve. Are you over? Happy New Year.
SB: And Happy New Year to you. How are you?
PS: I’m good so far.
SB: Good. A busy Christmas it sounded like.
PS: Yes. Well, very nice that you come up finally with a big talk. I’m ready.
SB: Ok, Peter. Well, many thanks for having a chat with me. As you know what I’m working on now is a book about 100 Group.
PS: Yeah.
SB: And we are particularly interested in a number of factors about it and one of them I mentioned in your, in the email exchange we had was about false messages by German speakers.
PS: Ah.
SB: Now, you said you, you experienced those. Can you just say a bit about that?
PS: Yeah. Well, let me see. Let’s start from how I came into the missions with the night fighter aircraft in mid of 1943 as you know.
SB: Yeah.
PS: You know, it had come earlier. But I don’t know is the old [unclear] You know, these round [nacht nacht]
SB: Yes.
PS: In other words there the Würzburg radar was looking for the enemy and one when Würzburg radar was working for the German night fighter.
SB: Yes.
PS: It was then the officer at the ground. The ground officer brought them together on a special table and then he talked to us, you know. He said ok, you know the system.
SB: Yes. Yes.
PS: We called it [nächthampfe ] or night fighting in the boxes you know.
SB: Yes, I understand.
PS: Yes. And they had about a hundred different boxes over the southern part of Germany, the Netherlands and France and in every one when the British came on there was a night fighter.
SB: Right.
PS: And this was the old system and as you know so if we had it on a very high frequency we had a contact with the ground controller.
SB: Right.
PS: And he said in German with the code words but very simple code words everybody who in German can find out what it is. [unclear] three hundred. [unclear] coast drei null null. Fly on a heading three zero zero and so on and now the distance is three kilometres. Now the target two kilometres. One kilometre. You should see them now.’ And at that time very often there came in the transmitting from somebody who was in the air too probably also on the same frequency and this probably was the fellows of your Group over there and [loooobabloooobalaloooba. Loooobabloooobalalooob] was being said there. Then this contact started and I lost the target.
SB: Oh, right. Ok. So this was jamming rather than —
PS: It was a jamming. That’s right.
SB: Ok.
PS: It was a jamming and that happened to me several times. However, we always had an alternate frequency right away and we changed over.
SB: Oh right.
PS: So that was our idea when the jamming came in and the operator behind me in a Messerschmitt 110 it was.
SB: Yes.
PS: Then he said, ‘That’s alright. I’ll change over, Leutnant. I’ll change over.’ Then I’d be controlling it. Oh yes. Somebody was interrupting the traffic but we still have you on the scopes. Here in the distance now and then everything went fine.
SB: Ok.
PS: Yeah, they thought that loooobabloooobalaloooba was the frequency. These guys were pretty clever, you know.
SB: Well, so were you always able to re-establish communication?
PS: I was very often we were establishing very quickly. We changed then five, six alternate frequencies we had available and this fellow must have understood my German and the German of the controller giving us distances to the target ahead of us and when it was close then he came in with the jamming, you know.
SB: Right. Right.
PS: So that was one deal which I have noticed here to give you some assistance.
SB: Ok.
PS: This is the fact that happened I think a hundred times.
SB: Yes.
PS: And it must be from the air. From a plane in the air on the same frequency because the ground frequencies from England were not strong enough to interrupt the ground controller.
SB: Right. Ok. Now, now talking to Bomber Command chaps they seemed to think that there were two systems they used. One was the wireless operator in the bomber would be scanning the frequencies to try and find the frequency that you were on.
PS: Yes.
SB: And when they found the frequency that you were transmitting on they had a microphone in one of the engine nacelles and they would tune that microphone in to your frequency and switch it on which would just give you a lot of noise.
PS: Oh yes.
SB: Which I guess might be one of the things that you were talking about there.
PS: Yes.
SB: The other system is there were there was one squadron, 101 Squadron that had German speaking operators in the aeroplanes.
PS: Yes.
SB: With the intention of transmitting false messages to you.
PS: Yes.
SB: Did you, are you aware of that? Or did you experience that as far as you know?
PS: That too. Very good you are asking me like this because that was the next progress now.
SB: Ok.
PS: That this Wilde Sau so called box night fighting.
SB: Yes.
PS: Was not effective anymore because since Hamburg and I was over this Hamburg attack you brought these aluminium foils.
SB: Window.
PS: Windows in ninety two million pieces they covered and then we were completely blind. Not only the night fighters with the Lichtenstein also the ground Würzburg was blind.
SB: Yes.
PS: Obviously the Windows and the reason for this you know I brought it in my book was that we had a traitor who was deserting to England with the Junkers 88 in, it was a couple of months before Hamburg. Three or four months.
SB: Yes.
PS: Peter Hinchcliffe told me. Peter Hinchcliffe was very well informed. I think he was also working in the Secret Service later on after the war. He told me that they checked the Junkers 88 right away when they, when they landed in Dyce it was, I think.
SB: Yes.
PS: You can read it in my book.
SB: Yes.
PS: You can see it was on I have even the page available for you. If you just have a short look on it you will find the whole deal from Hamburg. This is the page. Let me see. I have to get my glasses. Excuse me.
[pause]
PS: In my, in my book you do have it. The jamming. Page ninety one.
SB: Right.
PS: I have here and here another interesting thing which was done pretty clever. Right, ok so to answer your questions then we changed from the box system we changed to the Tame Boar.
SB: Yes.
PS: The Zahme Sau.
SB: Yes.
PS: In other words the British Royal Air Force did not come single they came in streams.
SB: Yes.
PS: And then the whole box system was in break from the 25th of 7 ’43 however years. Eighty five you should have a look too. That was the, the traitor deal with Oberleutnant Schmid. He flew to Dyce, Scotland with the complete Lichtenstein.
SB: Right.
PS: In May and in July we had, this is on page eighty five.
SB: Ok.
PS: So if you have a look in my book then you will find it.
SB: Ok.
PS: And ok from that time you know this man.
SB: Yes.
PS: He died, the old fellow he was aged ninety seven.
SB: Oh, he’s died now has he?
PS: Yes. I met him a few weeks before his death in [unclear]
SB: Yes.
PS: And we talked still and he told me very interesting thing about this Hamburg raid which is not known to the public that Goering talked to him and said, ‘Hermann, this attack on Hamburg by the British you know what it is?’ ‘No, Herr Reich Marshall I didn’t know.’ ‘You know what it is? It is like the earthquake from [unclear] in the last century. If we get another one like this we will lose the war,’ he said. Hermann told me that.
SB: Yes.
PS: And I did not bring it up but I can tell it to you. You may use it now. Use it. Goering said if we get another one like Hamburg, remember as you know was a complete disaster and the whole town burned down and we had forty five thousand people dead and so on. So in other words if we get another one like this and he said, Now, Herrman we have to do something about it.’ And Hermann came up with the Wilde Sau.
SB: Yes.
PS: The Wild Boar and we and the other pilots we were continuing then on Zahme Boar. Tame Boar.
SB: Yes.
PS: But this was meaning that now from the grounds of a big commando voice telling us all night it was, ‘Fly now to Berlin. There is an attack on Berlin.’
SB: Right.
PS: Go now to Radio Beacon [Berta] Bravo Berta where you have to wait for this big attack on Berlin. They were hoping that the Brits were coming to Berlin.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
PS: But over Berlin we were night fighters. Two hundred and fifty night fighters. We saw a hell of fire. Cascades of fires but nothing at the ground.
SB: Right.
PS: And I heard later on by Middlebrook, the historian told me that he had written a book about it. That on the, this is on the, let me see on page ninety one I told you already that eight Mosquitoes made a hell of fireworks over Berlin and they were assembling two hundred and fifty German night fighters including me of course. Then by sudden I saw in the north about a hundred kilometres away real fire. Real ground fire like usual if the sky is clear above that high altitude. You see those things about two or three hundred kilometres away. The targets burning.
SB: Yes.
PS: So I thought what was it. They were five hundred or six hundred Lancasters gone over Denmark to Peenemunde.
SB: Oh right.
PS: And I made a note of it ready for you. five hundred and sixty over the enemy came with five hundred and eighty Mosquitoes and this is presented by Martin Middlebrook in his book the “Peenemunde.”
SB: Yes.
PS: You know, and so I was speeding up then with full of circle and forget about what they were saying. They were still, ‘Stand by over Berlin. Stand by over Berlin. Berlin is attacked. Wait over Berlin.’ A large number waited over Berlin. Not me. I went away because I missed this in Hamburg with full power and in twenty minutes I got my first shot over Peenemunde as you know. The 18th of August ’43 it was.
SB: Right. Right.
PS: And that’s your turn. The next question is ahead now this is the ground controller speaking with a loud German words commanding us all and now covering your question the British came up about the same time also with commandos in German. However [laughs] in some cases you could hear the British accent. They have, the Brits have a problem with speaking the R you know.
SB: Right.
PS: The Germans say, [unclear] but the British say [unclear] which means we should all land.
SB: Ah, ok.
PS: Then the ground controller, the German controller came up and said, ‘No. No. That is the British. No. Forget about it. [unclear].’ You understand my German?
SB: Yes. I, yes. Yes.
PS: And stay in the air.’ [unclear] [laughs] only in some cases we landed. [unclear] means the mission is finished, you know .
SB: Yes.
PS: And we landed and on then there were men on the ground they said there is a whole attack you know on such and such town and you guys will have to go.
SB: That’s really interesting.
PS: [unclear] comes the story which you have to check and [unclear] if you notice for you which you must check.
SB: Right.
PS: The commander that was the Austrian fellow. A fellow, the commander and he made, I remember he made a briefing about five or six o’clock in the evening said, ‘Well, you know what this night is going to happen? Don’t listen to any German masculine voice anymore. Don’t do this. Only listen to our German ladies.’ To our Deutch frauleins. ‘If they speak this is on the ground because the British are interrupting us so much,’ he said, oh he said, ‘the British might as well be here.’ [unclear] telling you that is the truth. This is real. So, they have trained the German frauleins. They will speak now the text but normally the German masculine, the German man did this to us.
SB: Oh right. Right.
PS: Here comes the big surprise. There was a wonderful accent free lady talking to us [unclear] Right away. So we did and we were mixed up. So what is this? And here I learned later on but here I have no proof that in one of the few Lancasters I shot down was a feminine body. I am not sure if this is true. This you must check with your guys.
SB: Oh right.
PS: Because the, there hadn’t been feminine voices. Also speaking to us with a clear accent free situation what I personally think that day these are probably Jewish emigrants, the daughter of famous Jewish emigrants in England.
SB: Right.
PS: He was going with against us of course and she was speaking very accent free and by this accident the girl did not come back and the father emigrated and the father later on after ’45 he could come back to Germany he want to slow down the old story. You know what I mean. He did not want that this story is being known. Maybe this man go a, became a professor whatever. A leading person like whatever. Like Willy Brandt.
SB: Yes.
PS: As you know he was in Norwegian as a soldier as well.
SB: Yes.
PS: [unclear]
SB: Yes. Yes.
PS: And they covered the whole thing from the British side like as you know the files of [unclear] have been stopped until 2015 by Mrs Thatcher you know.
SB: Right. Oh, right. Ok.
PS: You know that. This is possible but so I’m not sure but I remember the feminine voice giving us commandos.
SB: Yes.
PS: Did, and later on they told us, ‘Well, why did you land, you guys?’ And so on.
SB: Oh ok. I’ll have to try and dig into that one.
PS: Yeah. You should dig in this. This is very interesting.
SB: There’s another thing I’ve read somewhere. I don’t know how true it is but in one of the books somewhere I read that on occasion if say the target was Munich then you would get Bavarian music.
PS: Yeah. That’s right.
SB: Is that right?
PS: That’s a fact. That’s a fact. What I told you before was the feminine.
SB: Yes.
PS: [unclear] but the fact is that because of the feel of the many jammings and the many, the many wrong informations we received in the air the Germans broadcasting system said that we follow now this this bulk of five hundred Lancasters. We can hear them. We can. They are over Essen now [unclear] We hear now music from the Ruhrland. Now, they are over Cologne and now you hear [unclear] carnival sounds over Cologne. We will make you hear the Bavarian.
SB: Right. Right. Ok.
PS: This was a very, what shall I say was not much help.
SB: Right.
PS: There was help for me as a night fighter was when I had a good radio operator. He also could even help us when the jamming was too serious by Windows. You know how?
SB: How?
PS: The British shovelled out the Windows of the plane.
SB: Yes.
PS: But the plane gives a trail. So a good radio pal of mine we found this out. Should we fly to the left? ‘No, to the right. [unclear] Oh I have a mix of Windows now. Mix. Now, more to the left.’ Then I could go into the bomber stream as well. You know that.
SB: Ah. That’s, that’s really interesting. I’m glad you said that because one of the questions I had for you —
PS: I think —
SB: Did you know Hauptmann Hagar. Johannes Hagar.
PS: Yeah. I remember.
SB: Well, my friend who is researching this book with me spoke to his bordfunker a couple of years ago.
PS: Yeah.
SB: And he said that he could distinguish between a bomber formation or a simulated Window spoof using his SN2.
PS: Yes. You could do this. Yes.
SB: You can. Right.
PS: Well, now that Lichtenstein was out over [unclear] and we changed to the larger antenna of SN2 and on the SN2 we had five, six different receiving frequencies.
SB: Right.
PS: We could change. But the good [unclear] on this was known as German night these things go within a couple of hours.
SB: Yes.
PS: Everybody is telling every make phone calls. We can follow now the, we can find the bomber stream if you try to find the maximum Windows. Then mostly the Lancaster in the bomber stream was shovelling out the Windows.
SB: Right.
PS: But in other cases as you know the bomber stream was split into three different parties. This is they came over with five hundred, six hundred. Then two hundred to Essen, two hundred to Mülheim, two hundred to Cologne and so on.
SB: Right.
PS: And it was very difficult of course.
SB: Sure. Now, now one of the things that they say quite a lot about the 100 Group is that sometimes if the weather was not good enough for a main force attack they would still launch a few 100 Group aircraft just to throw out lots of Window and make you think that an attack was coming. To, to keep you guys in the air and keep you tired.
PS: That’s right. True. Oh, I mean I have more than a hundred real missions. A lot of, very often I went up and nothing happens so far.
SB: Right.
PS: But then it was that we were misled. We were misled by fireworks. We were misled by such as those guys who were imitating a big stream without any, and it was nothing you know. In other words the Brits were very clever at this.
SB: Right. Right. Yeah. Ok.
PS: So many different waves. Centimetre waves and meter waves and so on.
SB: Yeah.
PS: It was a fight between the engineers too.
SB: Oh, absolutely.
PS: We found your H2S the so-called Rotterdam. You heard about it.
SB: Yes.
PS: They found it in Netherlands as it was the radar you had there to find a very modern radar circling from the bottom of the Lancaster.
SB: Yes.
PS: And so that you could receive all these strands.
SB: Yes.
PS: Across streets and so on.
SB: Yes. Yes.
PS: Then within just a few days we got a so-called Naxos. You have heard about this?
SB: I have.
PS: Naxos was a receiver for this H2S.
SB: Ah right.
PS: Now, we were flying low and when the radio operator said, ‘Ok, you have a target now. He must be, must be above us here switching on his radar. Left. Left. Right. Right and I was climbing in this column until I saw the Lancaster.
SB: Right. Right.
PS: [unclear] found out very late. Then they switched. Of course they switched off then.
SB: Yes.
PS: They did not have it on. But in some cases they had the radar on all the time.
SB: Right.
PS: They were easy prey, you know. You could get, I think I shot down at least five or ten by this.
SB: Right. Right.
PS: Low flying and then the radio operator, he was an expert. He must have been an expert otherwise [unclear] for the pilot. He said, ‘Fly up. Fly up. More up. More up. More to the left. More. In they come.’ And then I looked only upwards and I saw then the big shadow. He did not know. He did not see me.
SB: Right.
PS: He only can see you if you were on the same altitude.
SB: Yes.
PS: You know if you, if you are below they never can see you, you know. If you go in the woods it’s always dark in the ground.
SB: Sure.
PS: And very light if you look up at the sky with the stars and so —
SB: Sure. Yes.
PS: It’s only in the air too if you are flying, if you are coming from low the gunner cannot see you. Nobody can see you but they haven’t any guns on the Lancaster below. You know that.
SB: Oh, I know some did. Yes. Yes.
PS: Only a few.
SB: Yeah.
PS: Only a few.
SB: Yes.
PS: Not many that did have guns. They were not shooting from the, from the bottom.
SB: No. No.
PS: From the rear gunner. The rear gunner was shooting and the front gunner could of course on top of the —
SB: So were you using Schrage musik mostly, Peter?
PS: Pardon?
SB: Were you using Schrage musik mostly?
PS: Obviously, yes.
SB: Yes.
PS: At the end because that was the easiest way for us.
SB: Sure.
PS: I was not attacking from the rear anymore.
SB: No.
PS: Because from the rear these guys were on the ball too. They were shooting either way, you know.
SB: Sure.
PS: And then at the end of the war there were also two or three together.
SB: Yes.
PS: Other guys were protecting the other one and looking around him. If somebody came from the rear. Did you see my last YouTube on my web page? On shrage musik.
SB: Yes, I did. Yes.
PS: Did you? It’s on YouTube. Somebody brought it in. I didn’t know. It’s not a bad, I went to Canada a few years ago —
SB: Yes.
PS: And somebody made us send this picture up and they are explaining about Schrage musik. About the slanting curve guns. Yes.
SB: Yes. Yes. Did you tend to use the same aeroplane or did you use —
PS: Oh, we changed. I’m, I’m an ace in the American way. I shot down at least ten German planes. I jumped out four times. Four time. I crash landed several times and the next day I had another plane.
SB: Right.
PS: But if you were an ace you got a plane right away.
SB: Right.
PS: In the air. At the end only the, the aces, it’s a terrible expression by the way.
SB: Yes. I know. Yes.
PS: I hated to say it but I don’t know another one. [unclear] I’m good with many claims. Is that better?
SB: Right. Right.
PS: They only got fewer. Not the other guys.
SB: Yes.
PS: There were only three, four at the end of that in Bavaria.
SB: Yes.
PS: Who were allowed to. I remember Augsburg in March ’45 only three planes. I was with another officer and with another [unclear]. There would be three planes up in the air to protect Augsburg on the 17th of March 1945.
SB: Yeah.
PS: There was against five hundred that was nothing you know. Even more dangerous in those days, the last month was the fact that you couldn’t get in the air but it was already over the fields.
SB: Right.
PS: Waiting for you.
SB: Yeah.
PS: And you needed light to get up in the air.
SB: Sure. Yes.
PS: We were taking off with one light. With one light serving you. Here’s the runway and then we took off and then you must fly very low because these fellows had a wonderful radar and they got you up right away. It was the same when you were ready to land. Then [unclear] they were already up in the air waiting.
SB: Yes.
PS: Then you hardly can land on a dark field. You must have a little bit of light. But at that time you know it was terrible.
SB: So these were the Mosquitoes waiting for you were they?
PS: Sure.
SB: Yes.
PS: They were waiting and ready and we had one deal was that when we were approaching then we knew we had a [unclear] [pause]the lighting system.
SB: Right.
PS: We could send these sky markers how do you say? I don’t know the expression.
SB: Ok.
PS: Anyhow, the, yeah it was, that was —
SB: Yes.
PS: Very low but you can stay low too.
SB: You mentioned homing on H2S. What about Monica? Were you aware of Monica?
PS: Yes.
SB: And the same deal I guess was it?
PS: Yeah.
SB: That you could —
PS: We had one from the rear if somebody was coming. With [unclear] you could hear it in your headset. If somebody was coming we had a, we had a radar behind us and a person as well, you know to search us.
SB: Yes.
PS: And we had all the time the engineers were working very hard. [unclear] I think is the name.
SB: Yes.
PS: Very hard earned but I was not successful. The best deal for me was Naxos and the H2S you know but I’ve told you before.
SB: Yes. Yes.
PS: That was for me and you know the radio operator they were scientists as well.
SB: Yeah. Well, indeed yes. That’s right. Yes.
PS: The engineers. They were working on the tubes you know. They had tubes in those days. They don’t have a television set yet.
SB: No. Quite. Quite. Well, the last question I have really goes back to the aircraft you had. Did they all have the same armament fit on your unit so you know if you jumped out of one 110 into another one would it be fitted with exactly the same armament or did you have any say in what you wanted?
PS: You mean the ammunition?
SB: Yeah. Well yes either the —
PS: Because the man who is working on the ammunition we call it in Germany even mixer. There was a man who give you, we had different ammunition was received. One with the, with the lighting system, with the [unclear] system.
SB: Oh, tracers. Yeah.
PS: Anyway, and one first of all.
SB: Right.
PS: And one fire and so on.
SB: Right.
PS: It was ridiculous. I normally preferred without any fire. Just ack.
SB: Right.
PS: Because then the other guy see if you hide away and you look in the air and sometimes especially over a burning town —
SB: Yes.
PS: It was like daylight you know.
SB: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Sure.
PS: Gathered and shooting. Everybody knows but forget about it. Do you see I’m still getting excited.
SB: Well, that’s tremendous, Peter. You’ve answered all the questions I’ve got written down here. That’s fantastic.
PS: Sure. Anyway, don’t hesitate to call me. I mean I always have time for you. You know that, Steve.
SB: Oh, that’s marvellous. Thank you, Peter. Ok. Many thanks and best regards and I’ll talk to you soon.
PS: Yeah. Good. And give my regards to Christine and tell her the old man is still alive.
SB: I will. I will. All the best.
PS: Yeah, I’ll see you.
SB: Bye.
Collection
Citation
P Spoden and S Bond, “Discussion with Peter Spoden 2 January 2011,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed June 13, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/50438.