Conversation with Ray Lippiard

Conversation with Ray Lippiard

Ray talks a little of pre-war activities before joining 15 Squadron, including Battles at RAF Abingdon and being deployed to France in 1939, which is where he was when war broke out. He describes an airfield being attacked by Ju 87. On returning to England with 15 Squadron, he went on to form 68 Squadron in m1941 with Blenheims. Ray oved to RAF Coltishall and re-equipped with Beaufighter and then Mosquito. He comments on there being many Czech air and ground crew on this squadron and tells recalls stories about them. Ray talks about his work on the night fighter squadron and various detachments. He mentions AI radar and draws some comparisons between the three types flown by the squadron during the war. Ray goes on to talk in detail about his post war experiences in the Far East and India, back in the UK and then Cyprus. Finally, back in England he worked on a series of jet aircraft, including the Vulcan. He describes different roles of ground crew. Includes contemporary head and shoulder portrait of Ray Lippiard; submitted with caption 'Ray Lippiard October 2012, died 15 June 2017'.

2012-10

01:25:29 audio recording

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SBondS-LippiardRv10004, SBondS-LippiardRv10005

RL: Right.
SB: Ray Lippiard.
RL: It’s very very sort of [pause] it’s very not much of an active life but —
SB: Why don’t we, why don’t we start at the beginning?
RL: Where from? From Halton days?
SB: Yes.
RL: Well, the first thing that I went in school. I left Secondary School in 1936 after about four years and I sort of and sat the exams and go to Halton.
SB: Yeah.
RL: In 1936. Well, then I went there between ’36 and ’38 as aircraft fitter.
SB: Yeah.
RL: For three years. Then from there on I came out to Abingdon. 15 Squadron to 1939.
SB: Right.
RL: And they decided to recall. We were recalled twice when we were on leave you know throughout the year back in March and June and the 3rd time we were called, they called me back again after that what had happened. And on the Friday the war was declared.
SB: And 15 Squadron at that time was flying Battles.
RL: Battles. Yeah.
SB: Right.
RL: Then they went to France in ’39. We landed in France on the Sunday morning before war was actually declared.
SB: On September 3rd.
RL: The 3rd. on the radio.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Church was open, churches on Le Havre and we found our way around to Gironde where to Bétheniville. Bétheniville first then we went to with 15 and 40 Squadron.
SB: Right.
RL: Well, we only had a couple of days because somebody had been spotted and 40 Squadron moved on. When we arrived on the Sunday morning we didn’t know anything about it, you know. We were kept in the dark as usual. Well, nobody knew much about anything anyway there. We made our way down past suburbs of Paris to Bétheniville. Bétheniville. Then we sort of stayed in barns you know.
SB: Yeah.
RL: A cow shed that wasn’t a very clever [laughs] a clever idea.
SB: That’s right.
RL: And then of course we found our way up to the airfield on Monday and then stood in the dark. I thought what was happening sort of thing because nobody was there and the first thing we knew about it was on the Tuesday. So we looked up at the airfield there and we looked you know, looking over the aircraft. Is that right?
SB: Yes. It’s fine. It’s fine.
RL: So then the first thing we know we saw three aircraft coming along you see. Somebody said, ‘Look up there. Can’t recognise them. I think somebody said they might be French. Well, the next thing they were brr brr brr [laughs] they were three Stukas.
SB: Oh right.
RL: Fortunately, you know we all disbursed you know.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Very little huts and tents around there and the airfield the aircraft were lined up you know. One facing out one facing inward as a defence. That’s all we had sort of thing.
SB: So had you gone out ahead of the aircraft or the aircraft had gone out before you or what?
RL: They were [unclear] on the airfield you know.
SB: Crikey.
RL: We went in on, we left on the Abingdon before the aircraft.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And then we went down by transport sort of thing.
SB: Right.
RL: And we didn’t see them until on the Monday and then we all what we did then was sort them out. There was no defence there you see. So they lined them up one facing in one facing outwards and the only defence they had was the k gun at the back and over a period of time we had to be doing two journeys. We did two hours stints in the, in the back cockpit.
[ cake talk ]
RL: The only defence we had. Normally when we go down the village somebody would just think of just back in the lorries. Hadn’t got to walk down. The main thing we did then was to dig some slit trenches.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Well, mainly that and the latrines. That’s the only thing we could do. Then we would send the aircraft off [unclear] right because they had everything else then. We sent this aircraft off say two at a time.
SB: Right.
RL: One might crawl back and then another but not actually bombing but reconnaissance sort of thing. And over a period of time then two would go up and one would come back. Then two wouldn’t back.
SB: Right.
RL: So over a period of time to sort of December the 2nd, December the 10th when we came back to England.
SB: Right.
RL: You know, we saw two aircraft off. I don t know what time we waited on the airfield then at Conde-Vraux. Then after a while I left. So then [ ] was there now and we sat there for a bit. Well, a day and a half sort of thing and then this four engine job came in. An Atalanta.
SB: Oh yes. Yes.
RL: I think. It was Armstrong Whitworth aircraft. Whitworth aircraft. It was mainly a transport aircraft you see.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: So then we got on this lovely you know [unclear] of course made our way back to England sort of thing. We were going across the Channel. We must have been about halfway possibly then suddenly said you know we’d turn around. We couldn’t, no, we couldn’t see all the window as it was. We were going back. I said, ‘Don’t be silly.’ ‘We are,’ he said, ‘We’re going around again.’ The next minute the [unclear] disappeared. They weren’t there. So we said [unclear] we went back. We’d been spotted or something. We don’t know what happened. We landed at Abbeville.
SB: Right.
RL: And landed on there and of course we had to refuel. Well, in those days you were four gallon cans. No —
SB: No bowsers or anything like that. No.
RL: Just didn’t have them there on the go.
SB: Right.
RL: Half the time the handles came off you know. We had a bit of a job there. There was only about out of the [unclear] there were four, about four fitters and riggers. Four or five of us. [unclear] into the village sort of thing you see. We spent hours filling up and hooking nozzles and filters. And when they came back from the village there he said, he said we’d go down when we finished. ‘Don’t go down there,’ he said, ‘There is no end of people waiting for lifts. So we didn’t. We just sat on the aircraft. I said, ‘We’re not going down there [unclear]
SB: Right.
RL: We came back then into Wyton.
SB: Oh yes. Yes.
RL: Do you know? By word of mouth this which Wyton they meant. There was a W H I T T O N. Anyway —
SB: Yeah.
[biscuit talk]
RL: The main thing was we went around and when we came on a Sunday and then you know we landed there. It was on a weekend and we were on buses with passes, temporary passes sort of thing and if you want any money you had to wait ‘til Monday. They said oh no. I’d been there about three or four days and I hadn’t washed properly, I hadn’t shaved like you know. When we were in France itself we were, we were lucky to get a bath once a week. If we were transport available you know.
SB: Yes.
RL: Sometimes you were on there but sometimes you missed it. You missed, you missed the day out. Then you had a good meal you know. That’s the thing. As I say I was with that lot.
SB: Right.
RL: When we came back we got to —
SB: So you got here when you’ve come back.
RL: They came around [with an ambulance]
SB: And then —
RL: And then we were there then until 1936. ’39 rather.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Then we were there until the end of ’39 and then with the Blenheims coming in —
SB: Right.
RL: And they were the long nosed Blenheims.
SB: Right.
RL: And our main job then was the longer, the long nose piece with all the rivets lark the old fashioned model you’d stand out. Our main problem was with strips of fabric to the [unclear] over the rivets.
SB: A bit of streamlining. Right.
RL: We’d spend [unclear] like that.
Really?
RL: That was, that was better than nothing.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: For ten mile when you were up to one hundred and thirty odd miles ten miles was quite —
SB: That’s pretty good. Yeah.
RL: In speed.
SB: Yeah.
RL: So I was with them until the end until nineteen, oh 1941. Just over a year. And the main thing we did there was I did a bit spread on the wheel [unclear] making the hinges to go to the bombs there. There were no bomb doors activated. You were on [unclear] you know with the Blenheims.
SB: Oh right.
RL: They dropped on the doors [unclear]
SB: Oh ok.
RL: Turned the hinges to go there so that’s what they had.
SB: So, that was still 15 Squadron was it?
RL: 15 Squadron.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And then in ’41 we went up to join 68 Squadron. We formed 68 Squadron in 1941.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And then we get in Blenheim fighters, night fighters and then occasionally we get down to, we got to put two [unclear], I think at oh Catterick. We formed the squadron then. Then we went on to High Ercall.
SB: Did you?
RL: To defend the Midlands. And then we get our Beaufighters through and towards the end of ’41 we moved. Around ’42 we’d got to move to Coltishall. Well, that’s we turned around. We were at High Ercall for about, well I think about six months and then we moved to Coltishall in 1942.
SB: Right.
RL: You know, we were on there all the time until 1945. Well, until the beginning of 1945. Then we, but had to go on detachments occasionally to up to Valley, Coleby Grange. Anywhere there was a gap you know.
SB: Right.
RL: And then down Fairwood Common. [unclear] Catterick on the Mersey. Then Warrington on the Mersey.
SB: Right.
RL: And then Coleby Grange up north and then Valley.
SB: On Anglesey, yeah.
RL: [unclear] ]
SB: Yeah.
RL: Where the gaps were.
SB: Right.
RL: Then we were based at Coltishall. So you’d have two aircraft sort of thing based. In all the time although we were based there we missed a lot of the activity. The activity there. Because when we got back we’d booked in again and —
SB: Find yourself somewhere else. Yeah.
RL: Put in –
SB: Yeah.
RL: All the time we were there from ’41 to ’45 when they disbanded we were the only ones who saw it right the way through. Formed the squadron and disbanded the squadron.
SB: Really?
RL: So then I thought well that’s the one time if your face didn’t fit you could get moved on. So I think somewhere along the line somebody must have appreciated my efforts. But when we left Coltishall in ’45 and went up to [pause] oh, the Midlands.
SB: Church Fenton.
RL: Church Fenton.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Then we got there and unpacking us and sending the spares and we were fed away from the different squadrons. I ended up in 234 Squadron at, up to Scotland. [unclear] Peterhead.
SB: Oh right.
RL: They were on Mustangs when I was there but of course it wasn’t much activity then. They were just cooling off and in a little while everything had loosened up sort of thing.
SB: Yes.
RL: We were closing down. There wasn’t much activity.
SB: They didn’t know what to do with you really. Yeah. Yeah.
RL: And then of course we put a few blocks up you know and unruly. The thing with it. At one time from a personal point of view it gets in the one time when I was up there there was a message sent to to the flight. I had to go and see the group captain. This was my particular case you see. I said, ‘I’ve got to go and see the group captain.’ [unclear] and I thought well I did have a brush with the MPs one night.
SB: Right.
RL: In Leeds. Running through my, running for the last train with the cord undone like you know, name. I was a sergeant at that time. My name was taken. I thought it might be a feedback on this you see but there wasn’t. They’d got to put a report into the police outside. So I went down there and then + from the flights in my normal battle dress. So, actually I said that’s the + He said, ‘Go and see the group captain. Oh yes. Yes.’ he said. Which, so anyway I did and of course I was like this what have I done. Then alright then he said + + I said, ‘What’s all this about?’ ‘You’ll soon know,’ he said. So I waited. It must have been about twenty minutes and you know the time was going on and it was going on through my mind what the hell have I done? What have I done? You see. And then when we went into the groupie and normally they said, as I had no escort I thought well fair enough it can’t be much you know from a personal point of view. There’s been no report sent in.
SB: Course yeah.
RL: And then at the first word he said you know he looked at me a bit stern faced. He said, ‘You’ve really done it this time sergeant.’ I can remember the words. They’ve been drilled into my brain. ‘You’ve really done it this time, sergeant.’ He said. ‘Oh.’ [laughs] ‘You’ve got to go to London.’ I looked at him. I thought well + the only time you get sent there is when you’ve got a bereavement in the family sort of thing you see. But I didn’t know anybody in London. ‘Yes,’ he said. I looked at him, you know a bit vague and his stern face sort of thing isn’t it. I looked at him and I thought I didn’t know what to say. He said, ‘I understand,’ he said, ‘You were with the Czechs during the war.’ I said, ‘Oh, not really,’ I said, ‘The Czechs were with us.’ I had to put him right on that, on that really. He said, ‘Well, don’t worry about it.’ he said, ‘Being with the Czechs when you’re coming through in twos you know. They’d have a mixed flight because they had Americans through on Beaufighters.
SB: Right.
RL: And feeding through. Over a period of time they expanded and then got to be about eight crews. Well, some could speak English and some couldn’t. Now, I could get on with them because I knew the radio and a bit of English and we talked with our hands as well as them. So I got on with them very, moreso than the average man. Put it that way. So at the end of that I was put in charge of a flight.
SB: Oh really?
It was lovely you now. It was fair enough on my own without the other blokes to say and as a, and then the flight with Czechs and English. We were in B-flight the Czechs.
SB: Right.
RL: A-flight with the English people.
SB: Right.
RL: Well, then they were alright. They were on more of a personal flight there because their families were interned.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And then they were wanting to get on aircraft. They were after them but the main thing was that normally you have a sector from the middle of the Wash to the middle of the Thames.
SB: Yeah.
RL: That was our sector.
SB: Right.
RL: But the first thing we knew about they’d go off there. Loss of RT. They were poaching, you know.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Flying another sector.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Well, of course then they came back and when we told the things and mentioned + Max Aitken like, he had a number of victories. Brought back the Czechs but the one thing he missed was that a favourite man of my man and all gentleman, a gentleman who I know aircrew and gentleman. He was a good pilot. Mansfeld. Squadron leader. As a flight + he got to squadron leader and one time in particular I read through the combat of Coltishall but I can’t. There’s no entry in there about him.
SB: Mansfield, you say.
RL: You see, he’s in —
SB: Mansfeld.
RL: F E L D.
SB: Right.
RL: That’s the id and then the only thing then he was a high ranking, there wasn’t many left Czechoslovakia. That’s the only thing I could think of. Because when he left this country he was put in jail when the old government was there.
SB: Oh right.
RL: So they regarded were regarded as deserters to come and + over here. That’s the only thing I could think of why he wasn’t mentioned in this lot.
SB: Right.
RL: Because at one time when I saw him in the Beaufighter was fairly, you know, the steps of the Beaufighter you know I could normally step up +. Well, this time he came in I could hardly reach the step. You know, I wasn’t very big but it must have been higher. I thought that was funny you know. If I’d been low with the tyres burst but being higher than the target. Well, when the armourers came in the Czech there was hardly a round left in the guns. I didn’t think he could fly more. There was only enough in the magazines. So then when we entered the debrief and the petrol, they didn’t know at the time but he had hardly had any petrol.
SB: Oh right.
RL: And when you think about it he was banging the table, ‘Missed him. Missed him.’
SB: Oh really?
RL: I thought nothing of it then. I thought [unclear] he must have lost contact sort of thing. Well, you worked out then he went into a branch of five Heinkel 111s.
SB: Oh.
RL: He claimed two shot down, damaged the third and he went chasing the fourth.
SB: Right.
RL: So then [unclear] said to him, ‘Missed him. Missed him. Missed him.’ You see. And you know [unclear] tempers. Well not a temper so much but —
SB: Frustration and —
SB: Yeah. Yes.
RL: And then you felt right but see what used to happen —
SB: Have your tea.
RL: When they sort of came to debriefing as long as the guns were firing and the engines were running they were quite happy. But when it came to the instrumentation of you know how it affected [unclear] crying and all this business he said you know translating when we went into [unclear] into English it was a work of art. So what I did I had a mock-up in the office of the instrument panel.
SB: Oh right.
RL: So I called him in. I said, I called the instrument people in and fixed it. They got on well with that in the end. It was fabulous[unclear] and they go on there and they said then I’d go down to the point of view of breaking off and going back to Peterhead and the squadron, the group captain there, he said, ‘You’ve really done it,’ he said. He said, ‘With the Czechs.’ I said, ‘No. You’ve got to go down. You’ve got to go to London.’ Then he said, you know I explained to him what I was doing there you see. Then he said —
Other: [unclear] Are you ready for more tea?
RL: Oh, that’s fine. Thank you Mary.
Other: [unclear]Sure?
RL: Yes, absolutely.
Other: It’ll be cold. I’ll bring another cup in then.
RL: So I was in my best blue and the [unclear] in there said, ‘Well, you can’t go like that.’ I said [unclear] and then he said, ‘Get this man up to the clothing store and re-equip him. Shoes, socks, the lot.’ Then I went into, back to the ‘drome and arranged to get down to London on my own from from Scotland of all places. So went down there felt a bit, you know [unclear] an then when the [unclear] said. ‘You’ve got to go to London,’ he said, ‘You’ve been awarded the Order of Merit.’ I said, ‘What? Second class.’ And he said [unclear] what had I done you know. The only thing I could think of was the fact that the Czechs, with the Czechs and my name might have been put forward but all I could think of the idea that I was there when the squadron when it was formed until disbanded.
SB: All the way through. Yes.
RL: So something along the lines somebody must have taken some notice of me. So I went down there you know there was another man there, another bloke there and you know I was a bit ill at ease until I saw two or three people I knew. Balbek and Mansfeld were there. And [Bobolecki] and [pause] there wasn’t much there. [Jurasek.] And I felt at home then.
SB: Right. Right.
RL: [unclear]
SB: Oh right. Right.
RL: When I went back there and of course we had a few beers and —
SB: Of course.
RL: [unclear] then we went there. They said, ‘Well, what are you doing?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m on a temporary pass.’ ‘Well, we can’t have that.’ He said. So he must have gone talking to [unclear] so then he said, ‘You’d better go home.’ They asked what leave I had to come. I said, ‘None.’ ‘Oh, well,’ he said —
[background tea talk]
RL: For some reason we’d got no [unclear] what we’ll have to do is we’ll give you some leave.’
SB: Right.
RL: ‘But what about my unit?’ ‘Don’t worry about that,’ he said, ‘You’re on temporary duty.’ So that, I think that is twelve days now. Twelve or fourteen days but then with these Czechs [unclear] kept on board. Oh dear of dear.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
RL: Then when I went back there from the point of view of seeing the group captain [unclear] squadron leaders and wing commanders yes but when you’ve got to see the group captain.
SB: Well, that’s serious stuff. Yeah.
RL: You’re in trouble.
SB: That’s right.
RL: But then when you got [unclear] things there oh no. they were alright. I was on temporary duty there like. that was it. And then I think very few people I wouldn’t know one or the other mind you [unclear] there?
SB: Oh right.
RL: And then you see bring it back to —
SB: Goodness. Yeah.
RL: They could well Max Aitken was awarded. He had his Czech medals on some more there and then the I put them in the box on there. Then yes, indeed.
SB: I’ve not seen one of those before.
RL: Yeah. Haven’t you?
SB: No.
RL: No.
SB: Not surprisingly.
RL: No. Very similar to the colours the blue and white are the same colours as the Navy long distance.
SB: Right. Yes.
RL: The only difference is that there are equal banners on that. [unclear] the time being and when they said, ‘How can you get the long distance in the Air Force and the Navy?’ I said, ‘Well, I’m a lot older than I look.’ [laughs] And they look. You see, there was and I said [unclear] Max Aitken, I got him here. There’s very little as I say. It’s a bit upsetting in as much as there was no mention of —
SB: Of Mansfeld. No.
RL: Of Mansfeld in there.
SB: Yeah.
RL: All I could think of the very fact that they were regarded as deserting the Air Force and when he went back he was put into jail they kept it a bit on the quiet side.
SB: Could be.
RL: But —
SB: Yeah.
RL: But as I say the more I’ve researched 48 Squadron. That’s 84 Squadron, I think. [unclear] 68.
SB: Right. You must, you must eat your cake and drink your tea, Ray.
RL: No, that’s —
SB: Or I’ll get in trouble for keeping you talking.
RL: And you see, that’s as far there but there again you know.
SB: Now, you’ve got. Let me ask you a couple of questions about that. You’ve got three thirty written above Fairwood Common.
RL: That’s, no that’s three. I’m talking about 68.
SB: Yeah.
RL: When they got the Mosquitoes.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Now, normally they told you the Beaufighter could catch the 210s.
SB: Oh, so these are the speeds.
RL: That’s it.
SB: 330 on the Beau and 360 on the Mossie.
RL: The Mossie.
SB: Right. Ok.
RL: And you go to [unclear] in there mention of the [unclear]
SB: Yes.
RL: [unclear] there was a period of time when we had those through. It wasn’t a very good success.
SB: No. That’s right.
RL: And of course they tried everything but then in the end this [unclear] when you had the Mosquito in and being a bit faster you see they got, they went off in pairs.
SB: Right.
RL: And then when the Beaufighter could pick up, well on a good night shall we say eight to ten miles. It could get up to that. Well, the Mossie at its best would do due to its, it was a smaller version of AI.
SB: Yes.
RL: Only had the Mark 4.
SB: Right.
RL: But four miles would be the maximum that —
SB: Right.
RL: Went on like everything else. The Germans had the, we called it the Red Steer.
SB: Right.
RL: You know on your tail.
SB: Yes.
RL: So then they’d wait until they were [unclear] and then they’d get like a turn. I said, I said, ‘I think it’s —
SB: [unclear]
RL: [unclear] yes.
SB: Yes.
RL: Dropping them in and coming back.
SB: That’s right. Yes. Yeah.
RL: Well, of course the Beaufighter was back and then when the Mossie [unclear] not my fault at all.
SB: Right.
RL: And the [unclear] was so quick he’d lost it and he couldn’t pick it up but of course the Beaufighter was there then. They [unclear] claimed the victory because there was no point giving himself up to —
SB: Yeah.
RL: The intent. Naturally the [unclear] of that was there.
SB: Did you have any AI on the Blenheims?
RL: Oh yes. But it wasn’t very very, it was very ineffective.
SB: Right.
RL: You know but to say [unclear] they were more or less the [unclear] that we had then were not very local use and you know mainly around about the Norwich area. They didn’t go very far.
SB: Right.
RL: Into the North Sea.
SB: Right.
RL: Now, with our Beaus out there they were good to go within I think about ten miles of the, of the, of Holland.
SB: Right.
RL: Because we thought we had the best AI. We didn’t realise the Germans were well in advance of us.
SB: Right.
RL: [unclear]
SB: In the early stages. Right.
RL: They weren’t, they weren’t supposed to go there in case they got shot down and the Beaufighter was, was captured.
SB: Right.
RL: They had enough Blenheims there because of the bombers like obviously. But they couldn’t —
SB: Right.
RL: They couldn’t copy the Beau.
SB: Right.
RL: Because when [unclear] the way down that was the best fighter we ever had. The night fighter. It had the armament.
SB: What the Beaufighter, you mean?
RL: Four cannon and six machine guns. They didn’t stand much chance.
SB: Well, no.
RL: The early ones on the mark 1s the only thing with it they were drum fed and then the observer had to climb over the rear spar to put it in. They were twenty five rounds and it had a hell of a job to get [unclear]
SB: Oh crumbs.
RL: And then when the [unclear] came along all of us then it were music to the ears as you can —
SB: Sure.
RL: A much better idea.
SB: What did you think as, as a fitter then what did you think of the Beaufighter and the Mossie to work on? To maintain.
RL: Well, well as I said I spent more time on a Beaufighter but of course the only thing with it was three of our engines there was a bit of a laugh because when you were obviously coming along off piston engine looking for the valves so where are the valves [laughs] How does that work? Oh, he said it semi-elliptic —
SB: That’s right.
RL: I said, I always remember five ports. One was a common board, two [unclear] two inlet and [unclear] oh dear oh dear.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Then we found out then. Then of course with the carburettor oh massive thing you know. It was bigger than a normal car engine.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Then no nearer, the boost pressure in those days there like it was probably about twelve pounds and then on the, on the top of the carburettor there was a bar with three adjustment screws. I thought oh that must be. It must be cruising, take off and override [unclear] that wasn’t to be.
SB: No.
RL: The basic one was on top of the capsule.
SB: Ah, right. Yes.
RL: And then the left hand one was the cruising, the middle one was take-off and the third one was boost reversal. Now, have you heard of that term before?
SB: No.
RL: Now, normally when you get oil pressure the boost [unclear] the booster valve you see on the barrels will sort of up and down.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Well, if we, when you closed down that valve used to expand and then it dropped down but you know it allowed oil to go through to the, to the throttles.
SB: Right.
RL: So consequently if you didn’t get the engine to start by doing the throttle would move up and then it hadn’t started.
SB: Really.
RL: So then they worked out you know how many did start you know boom and dug into them and they’d blow up. So we reported this, all this business. So he said, ‘Well, the only thing to do is it is to slam the valves going around you see. So this camera would come down and push the server down.
SB: Right.
RL: So then the oil couldn’t get through.
SB: Right.
RL: So that was the end from the boost point of view. It was very cagey. We got to about eighteen pounds before we knew where we were.
SB: Wow.
RL: They didn’t [unclear] the engine that.
SB: Yeah.
RL: But that’s amazing. There are no books on any of this. On the [steel] little box they had to find out the hard way. We really did believe you me.
SB: Goodness.
RL: As I say when you look at these things and you find out by experience. Then —
SB: You must have a drink of your tea.
[pause]
RL: Oh, that’s [unclear] because when we got, when we went to the, went to [unclear] we came down to Bentwaters.
SB: Yeah.
RL: I was into hospital there with haemorrhoids.
SB: Right.
RL: That was the end of ’45. November ’45. Well, then [unclear] on sick leave there was Bentwaters. It wasn’t an operation in it but I’d only been there a short period of time so I [unclear] on leave. The next thing I knew I was on a boat. That was at the end of ’45. So then at the tail end we worked went out on the, went out in Liberators.
SB: Yeah.
RL: In the bomb bay with the wooden seats you know but I was, we sat down knee to knee and only six people at the back who could stretch their legs out because we were in the bomb bay itself and if they’d have opened those doors we’d have been out.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Dear me we sort of you know went through, we went to Karachi. Karachi then. We were posted up to [unclear]
SB: Right.
RL: Now, that wasn’t a very nice place to be but apart from the old India was looking for its independence in ’45 ’46. I didn’t like working there because on, on the quarters but one thing we were putting up with were the snakes there because we when we got there it was the end of the monsoon era and only two [batches[ were available and [unclear] on there.
SB: Yes. Yes.
RL: And then we would go to work about four in the morning and come back half past five. Then one time there we came back from the flights all the boys were like this [ooh ooh] So the [unclear] said, ‘What’s up?’ ‘Oh, we’ve found a cobra.’ I said, ‘Oh, that’s good. What’s all the fuss? You found it.’ They said, ‘We’re looking for a second one. They always go in pairs.’ And when they found it [unclear] left early on in the morning.
SB: Right.
RL: It was because normally then when in India then [unclear] the first thing they would take them off in the night. You sort of folded the canvas in a little bit.
SB: Right.
RL: But of course in the morning you opened it up, you shook it out. Centipedes and what have you. I said, well that didn’t go down very well with the [unclear] go down very well with the [unclear] I said, now I wasn’t very keen on the idea of putting off the Indians so then I asked for a [pause] the one thing in the Air Force you know you never volunteer for anything.
SB: Oh, I know.
RL: And never, you never asked for a posting. Now, I did. I asked for a posting. They gave me one. Cocos Islands. We spent [laughs] we spent a day or two days on the island going from Bombay to Madras you know with the second task. All the animals [unclear] . The first thing in India was the end of the shop. Go in and [unclear] . We got that lot. Then we go down to the end of Sri Lanka. Well, it was Ceylon in those days. Then there was only the [unclear] and me and we used to play cricket a lot in those days. When we were at Negombo in south of Ceylon.
SB: Yeah.
RL: We waited then for our other call to come through to fly out to the Cocos, you see. I mean, we waited there a fortnight. No, nothing through. That was normal so then we happened the second weekend we were in we went into Columbo and we saw a cricket match. Oh, beautiful. [unclear] the people nearby, you know said, ‘British or Air Force? Well, what are you doing down here?’ ‘Oh, we’re waiting for transport to go down to Cocos.’ ‘Oh,’ he said, ‘Do you like cricket?’ ‘Oh, love it’ So they said, ‘Right. Next weekend when we’re down there so then we’d love a game.’ I said, ‘Well, if you could fit us in.’ Anyway, he next weekend we were down there about the third weekend we were fixed up lovely. So we came down in the morning, on the Monday morning, booked in again. I said, ‘Names.’ Our names were off the list. I thought that’s funny. I said, ‘Look, we’ve been here three weeks to a month.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘You’re not here. You’ve gone.’ Well, what had happened, the weekend we’d left somebody else had filled in.
SB: Oh right.
RL: They couldn’t find us so they sent them.
SB: Oh dear.
RL: So we all, we had about oh I think about six weeks all together by the time we got back to Kinloss err to Cocos and that was a bloody [unclear] of course but it was you know six months was the maximum you stayed there. You’d go, you’d go daft after that.
SB: Yeah. What were you doing there?
RL: Well, we were waiting on the ground seeing the Liberators from Australia to Singapore.
SB: Oh right.
RL: And then Qantas.
SB: Oh right. Ok.
RL: Then because they were our refuelling spot. Refuelling. Come in on the Monday. We serviced them on the Tuesday and then they’d go Wednesday morning.
SB: Right.
RL: So we were on call for twenty four hours a day you know on there.
SB: Right.
RL: We had six months of that lot and the island itself well it wasn’t you know we’d heard about these [unclear] but the island would be about seven mile long and about four mile wide. So that wasn’t too bad.
SB: Right.
RL: But when we saw in the watch office elevation three feet [laughs]
SB: We could have washed you away. Yeah.
RL: And on the Sunday morning there on the [unclear] island there was [unclear] of islands there you see and the natives would come across to take us fishing on the sand there. Now, we went to leave there, to go there but if you did, if you were missing for more than forty eight hours we didn’t actually lose them but we mislaid two people who had been [laughs] they had gone on there and gone to the islands or whether they were drowned or not we would never know but they were on the missing list anyway.
SB: Right. Right.
RL: They might have been gone with the fishermen. So what we needed to do you see is we weren’t able to give them anything at all. We used to get sweets and talcum powder for the wife and children and send them there a bottle of whisky or something [unclear] Do that now in a way but I think that we kept there. Then when they came back to Singapore we had oh over six months pay there abouts. You couldn’t spend any money on the Cocos islands there you know.
SB: Right. Sure.
RL: And then on top of all that they I had to return the thirty odd pounds from the income tax sent to me there.
SB: Wow.
RL: I couldn’t spend it. Adding insult to injury that was. When we got back we went to the, into Singapore.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Went into Seletar on the MU.
SB: Yeah.
RL: But I didn’t like the MU at all because I’m an outdoor man anyway [unclear] So then when the 81 it was —
SB: ’84.
RL: [unclear]
SB: It was 31 first.
RL: And when we were there they had the thing up to Java. We were, we were sent on to Java then as a holding party and we were on the Dakotas and we were like flying fitters in those days.
SB: Right.
RL: Our main job then was to the wives and [planters] and the children, fly them into Singapore.
SB: Right.
RL: And then, the [planters] stayed there hoping to keep them. Normally they were, they were chased out eventually when the Indonesians took over.
SB: Right.
RL: And then one time in that lot was we did the odd trip as a, like a hostess sort of thing there to keep to pacify them because the children were a bit worried about all, leaving their dad and all that business you see.
SB: Yes. Yes.
RL: So we had to pacify them then and one time I had to go up into Borneo. An engine, one loss of engine [unclear] about forty miles up the road [Hunters] were still active. That wasn’t very good you know from the point of view we saw more awkward situations in [unclear] because we were in the middle of the Dutch and the Indonesians and consequently we were up on the airfields you see. We had to fly out, take the flyers down into town. Well, on occasion on Independence Day and all this business you had to be very careful about driving through town with the narrow streets anything could be lobbed in the back.
SB: Yeah. Sure.
RL: [unclear] bomb or anything like that.
SB: Sure. Yeah.
RL: I kept my finger, I think I kept [unclear] because I could drive the car in those days and then that was the only thing there. We saw more awkward incidents than I did all the times of the war.
SB: Yeah. Really?
RL: The only times of the war was the butterfly bombs.
SB: Oh yes.
RL: Only small. The package was only about that big. Enough to blow a tyre, you know.
SB: Right.
RL: [unclear] take the airfield out of action.
SB: Right.
RL: But one time there we were about forty eight hours you know. We couldn’t move because they were plastered and we had no defence. We had to call the Army in. They did disposals because it was like a Roly Poly tin.
SB: Right.
RL: And then these things they’d come down like a parachute sort of thing you see. They’d land anywhere. With the, with the [unclear] you never put the chain on the lavatory. [unclear] we were very careful. And one night there one bloke come in and went over. I said, ‘What’s that? Where did you get that from?’ ‘The toilets on the, on the strip.’ And he had the case. I said [unclear] ‘You haven’t lifted anything out.’ He said, ‘Oh no. That’s the case.’ I said, ‘That’s a bloody bomb.’ Oh dear. [unclear] from the point of view of the individual. There was one time there that with a JU88, very similar to a Beaufighter.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Apart from the noise.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And in those days it was a grass airfield and you’d have unclear] light on the runway.
SB: Yeah. Where are we now?
RL: At Coltishall.
SB: Oh, Coltishall. Right.
RL: Then [unclear] so we got in there. That was a funny thing from a personal point of view you know.
SB: Yes.
RL: From the [unclear] Then he put the [unclear] light on and the flares and he’d landed now and then realised he wasn’t in the right place. He’d opened up and then of course [unclear] I could see then. The rogue 88. A JU88. So he went around there. [unclear] So I thought fair enough. The damned thing came around again and attacked the control tower.
SB: Really?
RL: He dropped two, I think two fifty pounders on the, on the bloody thing from a personal point of view.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: [unclear] normally there was a —
SB: Did nobody shoot at it?
RL: I don’t know.
SB: No.
RL: We’d no defence there.
SB: You didn’t. No.
RL: Nothing. Nothing —
SB: No.
RL: But a [unclear]
SB: Yeah.
RL: And then, and then that’s the only thing that happened there [unclear] from the point of view and then when you got through [pause] I came back from —
SB: [unclear] 84 Squadron Beaus here [unclear]
RL: When we came back to Seletar to the MU after we came back from the [unclear] like I quit the MU again and then 84 Squadron and 81 Squadron were on Seletar on the airfield.
SB: Right.
RL: Beaufighters were there. I said that’s my point.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
RL: That’s where. So they were having us then we were on the MU and of course we’d got to go to, there were two primary MUs one side and the airfield the other sort of thing. I happened to be in the Mess one day and we were talking one day wo Flight Lieutenant Jones, able to talk the same language sort of thing and the chiefy there they were having trouble with the exhaust pipes. You know the big, the big ring.
SB: Yes.
RL: So then they talked about challenges sort of thing. He said, ‘No. It’ll take ages to get these things off.’ I said, ‘Well why? He said, ‘Oh damn,’ he said, ‘I’m doing all the nuts and bolts.’ All this business. Taking the prop off. ‘I have to wait for a prop you know [unclear] a mobile crane.’ Not a hangar you know. A mobile crane. I said, ‘Oh Damn,’ I said, ‘You’ll have, you’re roughing it.’ I said, we happened to mention it. I said, ‘How long did it take to change that?’ ‘Oh, about four days,’ he said. ‘Come off it. Putting it on anyway. I can change those in forty eight hours.’ He made [unclear] out of that. I said, [unclear] called the flight leader [unclear] he said, ‘You can cut down the whole [unclear] in two days.’ He said, ‘Have you worked on Beaufighters?’ I said, ‘I cut my teeth on them.’ He said, ‘Well, what do you do?’ I said, ‘Well, you don’t use the exhaust again and you go and get nuts and bolts again but [unclear] sledgehammer.
SB: Yes.
RL: I said [unclear] bang and that nut and bolt’s gone. And then I said to him, ‘Look, what about —' I said and he’d lift the prop up by hand. He said, ‘Yeah. Three blokes. Two blokes on the ladder and one bloke on the top.’
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: The one thing [unclear] the tail is down I want to make sure that [unclear]
SB: Yeah.
RL: [unclear]
SB: Yeah.
RL: I said, so he said, ‘Oh [unclear],’ he said, ‘Do you fancy coming over?’ I said, ‘by all means.?’ He said coming over to get a job.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Before I knew it I was posted there.
SB: Yeah.
RL: So I was a long time then. Then [unclear] the end of the [unclear] as well because they were more or less useless because of the main spar with the humidity and all this business. And the grabs on the spar, the main spar about four foot from the end there was a long [unclear] it might have been twenty four or twenty six inches.
SB: Right.
RL: And the [unclear] in there these grubs would eat the glue.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And of course [unclear] about it instead of going up and down like that they could move [unclear]
SB: Oh.
RL: Then [unclear] sort of thing.
SB: Yeah. Sure.
RL: So they [unclear] on Beaufighters. And then the main thing now we went on Seletar and then over to Changi. [unclear] Changi then the main thing to do our job then we were doing a Met flight from Singapore up to KL. KL and Butterworth down Sumatra and then of course we spent all our time and eventually we went to I’d say about six to eight months and then in Seletar. Then from Seletar onwards then on to 1948 when we came back home.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And then of course we’d had enough of the outside world and when we came back in fact they said we reported to a place Wythall near Birmingham.
SB: Oh right.
RL: I said, ‘Wythall? I’ve never heard of it.’ Couldn’t find it on a map. So I had to go down and they said, ‘Grimes Hill is the nearest police station.’ Never heard of that either. So, anyhow [unclear] just short of, just on the outskirts of Birmingham. So Redditch. Somewhere like that. So when we found there so when we were [unclear] when you got posted there you get picked up from the, a vehicle picks you up on the initial posting. You get your kit on. So we asked the driver, ‘What aircraft have you got there?’ He said, ‘We haven’t got any aircraft.’ I said, ‘Well, what do you have?’ He said, ‘There’s some balloon hangars.’ Oh I’m not going to bloody balloons I thought. [unclear] everything else it were mobile classrooms and we had all the instructional duties then and we were all around the country.
SB: Right.
RL: Because normally you see when we got a new, a new engine or so we thought you’d send people to the firm.
SB: Sure.
RL: So then rather than do that they sent us out to [unclear] nine weeks out and three weeks in throughout the year.
SB: Right.
RL: Well then [unclear] hydraulics, pneumatics and on jets. On the early jets on the Derwent.
SB: Yeah.
RL: We did about oh three, four and a half nearly five years. I’ve got it up to about ’53. Then we were disbanded and they put us on to Henlow that time.
SB: Right.
RL: On the little Comm flight. And that time, in ’54 I got married in ’54. Up until that time I’d been a single man and of course from there on we had about two months there and then in ’55, ’54 rather from, I went to Cosford in ’54 on trade standards.
SB: Right.
RL: I was on the air frames side on that letting all the, all the people [unclear] putting exams through and all this business. And then we got there from about 1955. Then I got posted again to the Middle East. To the Canal Zone. And [unclear] and then we were all behind barbed wire again and it would drive you mad if you, well less than a year I thought it was a bit [unclear] speaking because didn’t normally in those days single men used to go these stations.
SB: That’s right.
RL: Rather than married men you see.
SB: That’s right. Yeah.
RL: Anyway, we were in there and we were on, we were on the MU on trade standards at inspection. Trade inspection. I was in, put in general engineering in those days. So then we could and then Cyprus was, Akrotiri was there so then the thing was somebody had to go to Akrotiri because they were building the [unclear] racking and then they had people had their fingers caught because they hadn’t been building them properly. They had been putting the diagonals wrong.
SB: Right.
RL: So there was no chance of getting Mary out to the Canal Zone so why don’t I plump for that. And of course through them well there were no, there were no hangars there at all. That was the basic steps there.
SB: Yes.
RL: [unclear] virtually speaking only about ten maybe fifteen of us altogether.
SB: Right.
RL: Only about in a party of six and we went over to look at this [unclear] you know and it was very [unclear]. Very sort of backward in a way. Nissen huts. You had to do your own work sort of thing you see. So then I spent most of my time then back and forth into town looking for, looking for hirings. I did manage to get Mary out in, in, I think February ’46. So that time it wasn’t so bad.
SB: Right.
RL: And then again I was [unclear] and a half. Nobody [unclear] whereas every time we always seemed to be in [unclear]
SB: When there was trouble going on.
RL: When there was trouble going on you see. So I was in two minds shall I send for her or not. Well, as we had been recently married [unclear] were alright so I asked around [unclear] up to you. Up to you.’ I got her out there and then you know she had to fly out first. She’d never flown before so she got on the aircraft, an old Hercules. Shook the bloody thing over the Mediterranean and the next thing the engine was on fire.
SB: Oh, crikey.
RL: It had to turn back. It was on fire. She said it looked like the exhaust. That’s the person there.
SB: Right.
RL: They landed back in France and eventually got out there and then by the time we were at Nicosia from the Friday we’d been up there about forty eight hours. So then you know after Akrotiri nothing there. Nicosia was a two-day visitation probably. But when we saw her then I hadn’t shaved that morning and then she looked annoyed and she was with [unclear] knew her. She was a smart woman there. Well, she thought being so smart she was an officer’s wife sort of thing you see. [unclear] she was a character. You could, you could put her anywhere you know she’d fit in lovely and then you’d talk and when they came off the aircraft and walked up to [unclear] and the medical. ‘I can see my old man. I can see him.’ And this [unclear] said, ‘I can see my old man too.’ We were both together.’ [unclear] and his wife and everything. Coincidence.
SB: Isn’t it.
RL: Lovely. So we got on, we got the bus.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: To go in from the airfield to go down to Nicosia. Into Nicosia. Then the, normally when you’ve been away for any length of time I’d always buy something you know. So when we got on the bus [unclear] ‘What have you got in there? What’s that black thing?’ ‘That’s my sten gun.’ Oh, she dropped, if she, if she wasn’t on the bus, if it hadn’t been moving she’d have got off I think.
SB: Yeah.
RL: ‘What’s that for?’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘It’s not, it’s not a holiday camp, you know.’ The first thing you do when we get home I said I’d got a private hiring in town like that but a place out in town been partly built. The first thing I’ll do I’ll assemble the [unclear] for the bed. So that didn’t go down very well that. And then not too bad. She sort of stuck it. Because then you see you had a one in fours.
SB: Yes.
RL: Fours. Well [unclear] at one time we are four. Two wives and two [unclear] Not the four.
SB: Not what they meant. No.
RL: The local [unclear] evidently the [unclear] time very awkward. Now, we were living about two miles outside Limassol.
SB: Right.
RL: And then of course in a nice bungalow but open ground.
SB: Right.
RL: The Greeks all around there, you see.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: So [unclear] I always found then the better the ground [unclear] get to the children first. Well, there was a crowd of [unclear]
SB: Yeah.
RL: So then take, take a camera shot of them. I think this was the first time some of these hadn’t had their photograph taken. I did my own developing in those days.
SB: Oh, did you? Yes.
RL: [unclear] and I’d do it the next morning. [unclear] you see.
SB: Yeah.
So you see when we got in barbed wire because I had my own stakes from there to stow and put in this and he saw me doing this you know. Nearly a hundred and then looking. Then [unclear] to put the barbed wire around. That was the only thing I could think of . You didn’t get sort of interfered with because the thing was they used to tie the bombs on to the door.
SB: Really.
RL: Yeah. As you opened the door bang.
SB: Oh right.
RL: So then [unclear] we had a cup thing there with people I put tins on the barbed wire and if somebody rattled the tin somebody would be around there so you’d go careful.
SB: Yeah.
RL: But that was the only time we kept clear [unclear] made friends with the children and that was it. So there was no [unclear] because normally you see we used to wear, the Army used to all go in with their guns showing and everything you see. We didn’t do that.
SB: Right. Right .
RL: When we went, when we went into town we had a 38 revolver in the clothing store.
SB: Right. Yeah.
RL: We’d got a shoulder holster there.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: So then we were in civvy clothes and we’d go up.
SB: Yes. Yes.
RL: Because the Army aggravated people when they see them carrying arms you see.
SB: Sure.
RL: Fortunately we were living now two mile outside Limassol and halfway to the Army Horse Guards and [unclear] Sunday and in fact when you were in the camp you were safe you see. So then we used to love going there because the Horse Guards were like that and we used to like to go there and look up. When you sat down and giving you a stiff neck. At one time you know from the point of view of sort of awkward, not awkwardness but when you went to the guardroom you had to unload your guns and then I only had five rounds in there. I’d lost a round. And as I said [unclear] can’t do much about it he said. So when we went in the Mess and had a few beers I saw chiefy then, ‘I’ve lost a round. He said, ‘Well, what? Did you fire it?’ I said, ‘No, I never. I never fired the revolver. He said [unclear] So he said, ‘Are you sure you haven’t fired it?’ I said, ‘No, I’ve lost one round.’ I said, ‘Oh don’t worry about that,’ he said. So the next thing I know he told me to arrange something for you. So I went up there. So then when you looked out into the sea you know. We went around there. They had [unclear] and [unclear] on there like that. ‘Come on,’ he said. ‘What are you like with a revolver.’
SB: Right.
RL: I went down gradually bang bang. Fired six rounds and never went near the damned thing. So I said [laughs] to those about that time you know doing things two or three were there and a gang going around, ‘Come and look at this damned idiot.’ We went back in there you know. he said the next time he had me he said, ‘Are your arms both the same length?’ I said, ‘They were until I came here like.’ He said, ‘Who told you how to use it? We haven’t been told how to use it. A real rifle, yes.’ He said, ‘No, you’re wrong,’ he said. Two hands like that.
SB: Right.
RL: Two hands. If your two arms are the same look over and upwards on the go. Well, in the end I think the third shot hit the tin. Well, big man now you know. He said, ‘Come and look at this idiot [unclear] the tank.’ Well, going back it was a bit awkward later on in life, you know. When we came back from Cyprus I got down to Northolt.
SB: Right.
RL: And then we had a V58 and it was about a seven hour job then looking after comm flight.
SB: Right.
RL: And then I got sent to France occasionally with a liaison party. You know, the French —
SB: Right.
RL: A staging post there and that was the first time we saw a Javelin. The old —
SB: Yes, I know the javelin very well. Yes. Well —
RL: Well, we saw the same through you see and you go out and came back. Well, one time there out of the five four landed. The fifth one came in and the carriage collapsed.
SB: Oh.
RL: That went down.
SB: Right.
RL: So I just put the Javelin down there as a job then. That’s another thing though. Sort of awkwardness. Translating what you want into French on the technical side is [unclear]. I said, ‘Air bags,’ and no. [unclear]. Is said, ‘Where are the air bags?’
SB: Yes.
RL: These were extras.
SB: Yes.
RL: The main thing there from France. I said, ‘Air bags. Pump up.’ Because we were trying you know pulling out couldn’t lift it [unclear] kept the main thing up.
SB: Yes.
RL: And dig a trench so they could pull up there.
SB: Right.
RL: Well, of course [unclear] we got them though [unclear] so then we dug a trench and of course curtailed a big wagon. Lovely going through about three yards and [unclear] of course.
SB: Yeah.
RL: So that you weren’t there. So we gradually got [unclear] the Javelin. I said the last time too. We eventually got there and that was a bit of a highlight on that like.
SB: I know it was. Yeah.
RL: Well, then there was a bit of an experience all the time and then eventually when we got to, back to Northolt I had to go over to Guernsey had to come again with the engine change because I was, I was an aircraft fitter. Engine air frame and —
SB: Yeah.
RL: And eventually the Thor project was coming up.
SB: Yes.
RL: In America.
SB: Yeah.
RL: So then I know people of my age group and whatever they were [unclear] from America. I said, ‘I don’t fancy [unclear] could blow me up on the bases you know there. That’s why they kept on dodging us for a long time. Eventually crew chief would get up and [unclear] for crew chief then.
SB: Right.
RL: So then and then we went to basic, basic electrics because I covered the air frame because both one engine but then we had electrical. Basic electrical. We went to specialists on the Vulcans.
SB: Yes.
RL: And then from those in 1960 we went to the Vulcans there and spent the last eight years until ’68 when I came out of the Air Force.
SB: That was all at Scampton was it?
RL: Scampton. That was a good job in a way.
SB: Was that, was that Centralised Servicing or were you on a squadron?
RL: I was on, we were on 617 at first.
SB: Right.
RL: I was a boarding party in the early ‘60s because they didn’t have the aircraft to roll down then. So, 617 [unclear] took it in turns.
SB: Right.
RL: Then when 27 was formed we were basically 27 and 83 were formed. We formed that squadron then.
SB: Right. Right.
RL: Oh, it was a lovely time then because you know we used to go to America about four times a year to Offutt, SAC Headquarters and then you know and as I say to come home on a Thursday or Friday and I said to Mary, ‘Pack my bags. We’re off to Malta on Monday.’ Went there and at one time [unclear] to Nairobi. So, the list was up there one time. We put our name down you see. So then you know I was a good sixth on the list. I thought oh you never know it might be. Anyway, I went on leave. When I came back the list, I was on top of the list. Ah lovely. Nairobi.
SB: Yeah.
RL: It just came up. [unclear] Nigeria. Oh that was one a very clever sod that time. But I loved that because they said we had to go on. I had to go a month in Toronto when they had their exhibition on. And the best thing in ’66 we were flying, well ’64 ’65 we were flying missiles out to Woomera.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And then of course I had to take it in but if you’ve a bad trip they’d try and give you a good trip next time you see.
SB: Right.
RL: This time they kept missing us [unclear] Then one came up then. Lovely. Woomera. Then it got around that somebody along the line when you went through the Middle East there was a small gap between Russia and Turkey.
SB: Yeah.
RL: With MiGs and if you missed out that passageway you’d never know what was happening until somebody came up with the idea we went out that way and there you know, ‘Don’t look now.’ I said, ‘But there’s a MiG on our tail.’ We were watching all the time you see. So then word got around on this trip that instead of coming back that way go around the Americas. Well, when they [unclear] within that there’s a man who went [unclear] bumped my legs. I’m not getting out of this lot. [unclear] out of this lot because we had to send two Vulcans. So they got in on another one this lot did. So it was one from us and one from [Finningley]
SB: Right.
RL: And that knocked me out again.
SB: Oh dear.
RL: So I went back to the office, I took, I’d had enough of this and had a few bad trips. I said I knew the squadron leader you know and got on very well. So he said [unclear] and I couldn’t get on with on the Vulcan so they went so they sent me out as a [unclear] party on [Suez.]
SB: Oh right.
RL: And of course it involved the wives over there as well. Lovely. And when they got out I don’t think they realised then instead of coming you know back through the Middle East we went over on the Americas.
SB: Shame.
RL: Around to Darwin. And Darwin that’s another hole of a place there. Darwin. Then we went over on there to oh to the [unclear] island. Midway. Honolulu. San Francisco. Offutt and Moose. And that was the highlight of my life that was.
SB: I bet it was.
RL: In 1966.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Beautiful there.
SB: Yeah.
RL: Be about we had about a month, probably a month in Australia. Then got around. Spent about five weeks us fitters.
SB: Right.
RL: Came to customs oh it was a bit of a laugh because these koala bears. I took one for the wife and oh about four small ones of different ages. Never could get clear. Oh that was a highlight that. It was actually the [unclear] there and one time there when we were going to Toronto for the big do and then of course when you got [unclear] that’s the AOC.
SB: Yes.
RL: Some time. He was a very big man.
SB: Right.
RL: When we had a party at the last day we sort of you know [unclear] but a lot of wives went into Toronto. They went there. We had [unclear]
SB: Yes.
RL: But I thought that was going to be [unclear] lark and the next morning you know leaning forward you’ve got to be very careful. Should I take some of these Amplex tablets. You know, when the, I was [unclear]
SB: Yes.
RL: When we left Toronto.
SB: Oh, this is you. Yeah.
RL: Then the highlight was about ’64 ’65 possibly then you know and sort of so I took these tablets. Well the AOC then knew we had a party because they left early. We were in a big hotel. The Skyline Hotel you know.
SB: Yes.
RL: Big rooms. Oh beautiful beds. We were well looked after. Then of course we had the orders from downstairs quieten it down a bit because Canada on Sundays had dry day.
SB: Right.
RL: Well we [unclear] before that lot. Anyway, the next morning we went down there [unclear] away for as much as possible.
SB: Yes.
RL: But what I didn’t know was when they got the goose from there [unclear] they said, ‘What’s happened to your tongue?’ [unclear] I said, ‘The damned tablets left a grain there like a parrot.’ He must have seen that because he asked, ‘How is the party go, chief?’ I said, ‘Very very well.’
SB: Excellent. Yes.
RL: That’s another thing. I met the French president.
SB: Oh right.
RL: I was one of the two [unclear] we were on there and our names would crop up occasionally to show people around like.
SB: Sure. Yes.
RL: And he was one of the big, the big generals on there.
SB: Right.
RL: We happened to show him around the aircraft there.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And these are the, when we had the first, the high level one they dropped their bombs.
SB: Sure. Yes.
RL: Low level when they had, when they had the missiles.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And after that [unclear] and then in Cyprus this was [unclear] in there we were on examination there they had IED.
SB: Right.
RL: With the EOKA we had to be living in town in a private house sort of thing and then that was our group.
SB: Right.
RL: One morning I came out there he was missing. He’d been missing and one other bloke. And then what happened? They were blown up.
SB: Oh really.
RL: In the car.
SB: Oh.
RL: You know, that’s why we had to walk around in a gang outdoors you know. And then of course with the, well the colours in the roadway.
SB: Yes.
RL: And then of course they’d have a wire twenty or thirty yards away.
SB: Right.
RL: In the trees.
SB: Right.
RL: And a young lad would be there. not a man. With a young, with youngsters they triggered this off and blew it up on the, on the engines.
SB: Yes.
RL: And of course with all these people who don’t know what they’re doing in a way we get the [unclear] they take charge because they didn’t charge the battery on there. I had to get the driver and the [bus] [unclear] bomb at three in the morning. Well, he suggested that. He said, ‘What time? I said, ‘Same time every day.’ He said, ‘Oh mustn’t. Mustn’t have that. Can’t be done.’
SB: Got to vary your route and time.
RL: [unclear]
SB: Yeah.
RL: I suppose ideally I could do but there is only two of us going to Akrotiri along the [unclear] Road. One or the other. Well he said, Do that time.’ ‘Well it’s all very well,’ I said, ‘But who’s going to tell EOKA we’ve moved there because half of these people haven’t got a watch.’
SB: Right.
RL: And they’d tell you only tell the time would you. they hadn’t got a watch. They were waiting for the bus. [unclear] in the rain there.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: And then that was a bit of a nasty thing because it could have happened to any of us.
SB: Sure. Yes.
RL: But there is one point of view when when in town Hero’s Square was a meeting point of [unclear] where any knew, you know. you know, and then [Simon Powell] was the name, he was a man’s man if you know what I mean.
SB: Yeah.
RL: When [unclear] I had been in the kitchen. ‘Oh that’s woman’s work. Woman’s work.’
SB: Really?
RL: I said, ‘Oh,’ I said, ‘Well, you live in quarters you know.’ ‘Oh, no,’ he said, ‘No.’ Well, in any case one time there he was in town and he used to live near Hero’s Square. He shot a man going around. A boy. And then of course they got the wife out of the way and they sent him home. The thing was that when they both went home and when they came back then we had to go with the enquiry lark you see. He was a bit on age. I said, ‘What’s the matter?’ He said, ‘I’m not looking forward to this.’ I said, 'Well, you’re safe enough there. They’ll send you back home again.’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘Not that,’ he said. What he was afraid of when he was in the kitchen when this bloke ran away.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And he took a shot to him from the kitchen door but he was in a pinny [laughs] He was more worried about people.
SB: What people would think.
RL: As a man’s man you see. Oh, we laughed.
SB: Yeah.
RL: We had a laugh about that.
SB: I’ll bet. I’ll bet.
RL: Had a bit of fun there.
SB: I must get your, take your photograph. Yeah. It sounds like good fun too [pause] Lovely. Thank you.
RL: Yeah and I —
SB: You’ve got, I see you’ve got here what’s the point you’ve got to make here about the Heinkel 219?
RL: Well, yeah.
SB: The Messerschmitt 210 and 410. What was that?
RL: The Heinkel 219. That was the Owl.
SB: Yes.
RL: That was it.
SB: Yeah.
RL: The best from the point of view of radar.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And then when I got they could manage that with the speed and again mind you the 210.
SB: Yeah.
RL: But when the 410 came up it was up with the Mosquito is.
SB: Right.
RL: They came in pairs.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And the Beaufighter. Now, that’s the radar you see. I’m going by the —
SB: Yes. I’m familiar with this.
RL: Much better.
SB: Yes.
RL: Accurate. They’ve got the Owl.
SB: Yes.
RL: And the one thing about that [unclear] apart from night fighters they come back with the, with the bomber squadrons underneath them.
SB: That’s right.
RL: And they had the musik.
SB: Schrage musik. Yes.
RL: Underneath there.
SB: Yeah.
RL: And of course that was the main thing there.
SB: Yes. Absolutely.
RL: But they did many good [unclear] on the research on night flying. There was one bloke in particular. That was an AC electrician Neil. Then he went away and he got a pass and he had to come back to the squadron. Well, you got him out there. The first trip we went he was on a trial flight. He was vectored on to a bloody aircraft and he shot them down on his first trip.
SB: Really?
RL: Yeah.
SB: Well —
RL: And actually that’s in there. And then one other thing you see was with the Czechs, with Mansfeld the very fact that some of these were modified in the, in the old [unclear book, look through that if [unclear] business. Marked with 68 Squadron with [unclear] and all the pilots on that lot but you see as far as I can see they were as he was a high rank in the, in the Czechs when they had the old government the very fact that when he went back they put him in jail that it was kept quiet. That’s probably why he never made the headline.
SB: Right. Right.
RL: But when the aircraft, when the government changed over he was given his proper rank. Lieutenant general.
SB: Oh, was he?
RL: I know he was a gentleman. Very old school lark you know. And then they let him in ’45 disbanded and then both our classrooms, it was about 1952 I think it would be.
SB: Right.
RL: Down at oh down near Gloucester on there I drove along the road. I happened to see him. Waving and waving. Well, he was, we met his wife up to, well up to about ten years ago on the reunion lark you see but he was very old school lark you know.
SB: Right. Right.
RL: Because when the Czechs came through —
SB: Yeah.
RL: They talked about flying hours. They were talking about the average was getting maybe twelve maybe fourteen they’d go then and say they’d got double figures. Well, the Czechs about four thousand. You know. They were older and they’d been flying well onto the transfer. It didn’t take them long to get into this lot you see.
SB: Yeah. I’m sure. Sure.
RL: The thing about it was they had more of a, not a grudge fight so much but more of a personal fight because of their families being at home.
SB: Yeah. Because their country was occupied.
RL: That’s right you see. Then the thing is that they’d go mad you see if they missed. If they missed a chance on that lot because at that time I saw Mansfeld in you know I thought he might have had one [unclear] and must have missed him. But when the report came through he did target flying with Aitken, he got a DFC and I think a bar as well but he had two confirmed. One damaged and chasing the other one and then high up and one [unclear] I’ve got to tell you in the winter we found twigs. He must have gone down.
SB: You knew he was pretty low.
RL: Low. He was but he had to go over well what do I do to describe it? A killing instinct in a way because you know they had more of a personal view of things with that.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
RL: Because we were —
SB: Well, that’s tremendous. I’m going to have to go unfortunately ray. We’ll have to pick this up again but that’s been fantastic.
RL: Oh yeah.
SB: Thank you very much.