Interview with Harry Kartz
Title
Interview with Harry Kartz
Description
The interview starts with S Bond explaining the purpose of the interview is research for a book on the 'Wimpey'. Harry then described his joining civil air guard and then volunteering for the RAF. He, initially hoped to be a pilot, but medical issues meant that he was employed on several ground jobs before being trained as a wireless operator and then air gunner. He arrived on 9 Squadron in 1941 and flew 17 operations as a Wellington air gunner. Harry describes an operation to bomb Scharnhorst and Gneisenau where they had an encounter with a Ju 88. He recalls his crew and mentions other episodes of damaged aircraft. Harry comments on how robust the Wellington was to damage. After the war he became a director of Aston Villa Football Club. Includes contemporary photograph of Harry Kartz
Spatial Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:48:44 audio recording
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Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
SBondS-KartzHv10008, SBondS-KartzHv10003
Transcription
HK: [unclear]
SB: Well, that’s very good.
HK: Only losers. I don’t back many winners. But I picked five of the Masters, you know.
SB: Oh yes. Right.
HK: I’ll always have them [unclear]
SB: Who have you picked?
HK: Mccoy. McIlroy.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Keegan Bradley. Graeme McDowell.
SB: Yes.
HK: Phil Mackelson, Phil Mickelson.
SB: Right.
HK: And I’ve got another one I can’t remember and I picked five out of it. It’s, see it’s something for me to watch.
SB: Yes.
HK: You know, because I can’t do anything but sit so I spend my time watching television mostly. But my wife died about fifteen months ago.
SB: Oh.
HK: And she was ninety five.
SB: Was she?
HK: So I don’t, I’ve turned the third, the third bedroom into a den and that’s where I spend my life. It’s easy to keep warm anyhow. But anyhow —
SB: Right.
HK: Now, you want to get cracking.
SB: Well, let’s, let’s explain what it is all about.
HK: Yes.
SB: So 9 Squadron gave me your name. I’ve done a few books. I’m ex-Air Force as well. I was Air Force ’73 to ’95.
HK: Yes.
SB: And for the last few years I’ve been doing books. Primarily aviation history books, especially Second World War but not exclusively and a little while ago my publisher said to me, ‘What are you going to do next?’ And I thought about doing the Wimpy because over thirty odd years that I’ve been having these chats with people like yourself.
HK: Yeah.
SB: I’ve got quite a bit from Wimpy chaps and if you look at all the books that have been published about aircraft over the years there have been dozens about the Lancaster.
HK: Yes.
SB: And dozens about the Spitfire and —
HK: Yeah.
SB: And the poor old Wimpy hasn’t been dealt much of a good hand really. So I thought well maybe it’s high time that we did a good book about the Wimpy. So I said that to him. He said, ‘Oh yes. Great. When can you do it?’ So what I like to do when I do these books is not just say this is what happened. This squadron was formed so and so. I want the personal accounts.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Much better to get what happened straight from the horse’s mouth whether the person was air crew, ground crew, whatever.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So I had about seven or eight tapes with Wimpy chaps I’ve got over the years. So I thought well let’s see what interest there is out there. So I put an appeal on one of the websites and within forty eight hours I had responses from ten Wimpy veterans. Well, I’m up to thirty now.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So what I’m doing at the moment is trawling around the country dragging my daughter behind having chats with people like yourself.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So what I really want to do Harry is just chat through —
HK: Yeah.
SB: Your service career and we’ll just pick out anything of —
HK: Well —
SB: Interest as we go.
HK: I, I’m an awkward sort of individual. I mean, I don’t, I haven’t got a, I shan’t send for the clasp and I haven’t, I haven’t even got my aircrew uniform. My ambition was to be a pilot.
SB: Right.
HK: But I never made it.
SB: Right.
HK: And I mean to me it’s over. But, you know I’m, I would have paid to do what I did.
SB: Really?
HK: Because it was something I wanted to do. You see, I was in Germany about three or four weeks before the war started.
SB: Right.
HK: And as I say I was awkward when I was younger. I’ve matured now. But —
SB: What were you doing in Germany at that time then?
HK: Oh, well we were on holiday. I was touring France, Switzerland and Germany.
SB: Oh right.
HK: And we had a lovely night at Frederikshavn and they’d got a tea dance up. They really were living well in Germany in those days you know. Anyhow, you tell me what you want me to do.
SB: Ok. Well, I just want to chat really. So let’s start at the beginning. When did you join up?
HK: 1940.
SB: Ok.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So, what were you hoping? Were you hoping to be a pilot still at that time then were you?
HK: Yeah. You see, everyone knew the war was coming.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Twelve months before. So I joined the Civil Air Guard.
SB: Right.
HK: But of course in those days you couldn’t just leave your job so I couldn’t go very often to have a flying, to meet my instructor you see.
SB: Right.
HK: And just as I’d gone solo the war started.
SB: Right. Ok.
HK: And they, we went into the Air Force but I think I told you I went down to Cardington.
SB: Right.
HK: And I wasn’t clever enough to be a pilot.
SB: Right.
HK: You know, and, but that was something that was my main ambition you see because when I was younger I used to go to Blackpool for a few days and I went to Squire’s Gate.
SB: Yes.
HK: And had a trip there. They got me.
SB: Right.
HK: And I thought to myself [unclear] I thought what I’ll do I’ll do half my trip and I’ve always been sick even when I was very young. I went to Aberystwyth with my grandmother and we went to Devil’s Bridge and I was sick on the coach.
SB: Oh right.
HK: And I can’t, I couldn’t travel as a passenger so that they didn’t once I’d been sick I was fit as a fiddle so I’d [unclear] in the end. Then I thought I’d do half a trip then I’ll, I’ll talk them into letting me be a pilot because I’ll be ok. I won’t be sick you see.
SB: Right.
HK: With something to do.
SB: Right.
HK: But of course I was wrong. I wasn’t clever enough and so I did seventeen trips.
SB: Right.
HK: And then I put this [laughs] I thought, I thought I was good enough to do what I wanted to do. Anyhow, they sent me to a psychologist at Ely.
SB: Oh yes.
HK: And he took me off flying altogether [unclear] but so I failed there.
SB: But why did they do that then?
HK: Well, I don’t know. See I tried to talk them into the fact that if I’d got something to do [pause] you see I could drive a car no problem but as a passenger I was sick you see and I put it to him. But anyhow, he put me off flying altogether. So then I went all the way. I started off because I was with the University Air Squadron instructing on guns and signals and then they put me onto filters. Do you know about filters. The simulated radar.
SB: Yes. Yes.
HK: At Bawtry. I did six weeks of an eight weeks course.
SB: Right.
HK: And then they found out I hadn’t done the Fighter Command Psychology Tests.
SB: Oh.
HK: So they took me off that and put me on to Flying Control.
SB: Oh right.
HK: Which I, they sent me eventually to Watchfield which was the —
SB: Yeah.
HK: Base for that.
SB: Yeah.
HK: And I wouldn’t go. I refused to go on the course.
SB: Oh, did you?
HK: You know, I was, I was stupid really. And so I just wandered around there and eventually they put me back on to the filter course.
SB: Right.
HK: And I got a commission in filter duties.
SB: Right.
HK: I went to Inverness. 13 Group. And then eventually they, they sent us to I think it was Ceylon or India and so on. We were getting ready for the invasion of Singapore.
SB: Right.
HK: We were mobile ops filter.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
HK: Unfortunately, it was one thing I wasn’t very keen on because we’d got to go in on the first day you see and but fortunately the Americans dropped the atomic bomb.
SB: Yes.
HK: And we, I had a great time [laughs] in India.
SB: Oh right [laughs]
HK: Anyhow —
SB: Right.
HK: There was one other thing.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Somebody phoned up about two years ago and said, ‘Did you ever fly with Squadron Leader Ball?’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’ve done all my flights with flight lieutenant [pause] oh wait. No, I did. Yes. I did one trip.’ He said, ‘Well, that was my uncle.’ And he came to 9 Squadron and his first trip he had picked an experienced crew to go with him.
SB: Yeah.
HK: And we did a trip. I forget where we went. Anyhow, it was ok and the next trip he went with his own crew and they were never heard of again.
SB: Really?
HK: And so he wanted me, this fellow, his uncle was doing the prints and said, ‘We’d like, would you sign a hundred and fifty copies?’ [pause] ‘I don’t know about that.’ He said, ‘We’ll pay you.’ I said, ‘’I don’t want paying.’ Anyhow, they came along and in two efforts I signed a hundred and fifty and they gave me —
SB: That’s a nice print isn’t it.
HK: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: I signed it there.
SB: Right.
HK: But otherwise, you know it —
SB: Right. Could we, could we go back a bit?
HK: Yeah.
SB: Just going back to before the war again. Just briefly, the Civil Air Guard.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Where were you doing that? Where was that flying?
HK: That was at Dumfries. You see, I really, the Air Force, the six years I was in once I’d got past the wireless op’s course at Yatesbury —
SB: Yeah.
HK: Oh, it was like being on holiday. It was a great life because you see we didn’t do guard duties or anything.
SB: No.
HK: As aircrew and we lived on the best of food and everything and I did my gunnery course at Dumfries.
SB: Right.
HK: Wireless op. I started off at Blackpool.
SB: Yes.
HK: With my square bashing.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Then to Yatesbury for wireless.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Then to Dumfries. And then from there to Lossiemouth for OTU.
SB: Right. Ok.
HK: And then from there to Honington and then I went all over the place.
SB: Right. Right. So when did you arrive on the squadron? When? What —
HK: It would be [pause] it would be the early part of ’41.
SB: Ok. And you did seventeen trips you say.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right. So do any of those stand out in the memory as particularly memorable or —
HK: Well, you know it was something I enjoyed doing. And we did a trip to bomb the two battleships the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau and on the way back it was the night that the Germans were raiding the fighter aerodromes.
SB: Right.
HK: And our pilot he was an ex-fighter pilot. He was shot down over the Channel and transferred to bombers and I think he went, instead of going back to Honington he wanted to land at Tangmere to see his pals. We, he asked Flying Control for permission to land and they said OK. And they said, ‘Do you want, do you want the flare path on.’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘Please.’ They said, ‘Well, fire your colours of the day and we’ll put it.’ And he did that and when he fired his colours of the day a Junkers 88 sat in at the back of us. Fortunately, they whipped off the flare path and he had to take off and the Junkers 88 dropped a firebomb at the back of us. Fortunately, we take [unclear] and I was in the astrodome because you couldn’t [pause] to take off and land you had to, you couldn’t do it in the turret and as I stood there they, they got the Junkers 88 in the searchlights and I saw the pilot and co-pilot as plain as could be. But of course I was in this astrodome so I couldn’t shoot them at all but, and eventually we landed at Middle Wallop.
SB: Oh right. Yes. Yeah. So you were front turret.
HK: Yes. I was, I was the second wireless op but I was no good.
SB: Right [laughs]
HK: No good. I wasn’t very good at anything. But I mean the guns is easy because they fired themselves you know. And I really enjoyed it you know.
SB: Yeah.
HK: It’s amazing.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: I think I got everything I wanted you see. I mean there was comradeship. There was plenty of sport. I mean, I was playing sport and there was no work you see.
SB: What was your crew then? Who was your regular crew? The pilot was who?
HK: The pilot was Flight Lieutenant Edwards and then there was a Yorkshire, a youngish Yorkshire called Bonny Clayton. He was the number two pilot. There was a regular on the wireless. I think it, what was his name? And then there was the navigator was a fellow who used to work at Lewis’ in Birmingham. A fellow named Dilbert.
SB: Yes.
HK: And the rear gunner was a Taylor. Robert Taylor. But you know —
SB: So were all your ops, all your seventeen trips were they all nights or were they days?
HK: All nights.
SB: Yeah.
HK: We went to one day trip after the Tirpitz. Was it the Tirpitz? They sent us out but it was a bad day. Visibility was terrible. We never found it at all.
SB: Right. Right.
HK: But —
SB: Apart from your close encounter at Tangmere with a Junkers 88 —
HK: Yeah.
SB: Were there any other times when either you had some flak damage or any other fighters took interest in you.
HK: Yeah. We came back with holes in the fuselage but of course the Wimpy would withstand anything you know. It was the only danger with a Wimpy was fire because it was a fabric covered —
SB: Yeah.
HK: Plane.
SB: Yeah.
HK: But yes, we had to drop ration cards in Hamburg.
SB: Really?
SB: German, yeah with the Hamburg stamp and everything on them and we had to be [bang] down and the, and our navigator he missed it first time around and so we had to go around again. And on the second trip we got coned when all the and these I still remember my reaction was to get back in my turret and think they can’t see me then. Then afterwards you silly old fool you know. But fortunately I think being by the sea our pilot was able to drop down and —
SB: So he did a corkscrew down to get out of the searchlights.
HK: Oh yes. He did a lot of twisting and that.
SB: Right.
HK: And of course he said that, I remember the rear gunner said, ‘Did you say abandon aircraft?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘I said prepare to abandon aircraft.’ But of course in the front turret you couldn’t get out. They’d got to come and open your bulkhead door.
SB: Oh right.
HK: Because the rear gunner just whipped his turret around and went out but you couldn’t do it in the front or else you went into the props you see.
SB: Sure. Yeah.
HK: And of course with him dodging around nobody opened the door. But it was years afterwards I suddenly realised that nobody had opened the bulkhead door. But as I say it was something I wanted to do you see and as I say I would have paid to do it.
SB: Yeah. Have you got your logbook?
HK: Yes.
SB: Can we have a go through it?
HK: Yes. Sure.
[pause]
HK: You see that [pause] that was, that came yesterday.
SB: Ah.
HK: That’s the logbook.
SB: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Harry.
[pause]
SB: Average pupil. Average pupil.
HK: Yes.
SB: Worked. Worked well but still requires further air training.
HK: I was only average.
SB: Oh Whitley. Oh, that’s interesting.
HK: Where?
SB: Whitley. You flew, you did training in Whitleys.
HK: Yes. Yeah.
SB: Ah. What did you think of that? Didn’t like it?
HK: They used to call them the coffin ship you see.
SB: Yeah.
HK: They were. I mean the Wellington in my opinion was the best plane produced and I mean a beautiful plane.
SB: What makes you say that? What was so, what was so special about it for you?
HK: Well, it could withstand any amount of battering you know. I mean some of them came back with more or less the whole fuselage ripped in all sorts of places you know.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: And it stood up. But yes I did Whitleys and I can’t remember they’ve got me down as flying in a Fairey Battle as well.
SB: Oh really.
HK: I think so. Somewhere.
SB: Domini, Whitley, Anson, then Wellingtons. This must be OTU at Lossie.
HK: But —
SB: Oh ok.
HK: At the front is it? Has it got it there?
SB: No. Not, no [pause] Dominis and Whitleys.
HK: Are you sure [pause] I thought [pause] I don’t know. It’s a long time ago.
SB: Well, yes.
HK: I thought [pause – pages turning] Domini one, Whitley, Whitley, Whitley [unclear] [pause – pages turning] Yes. I did, we did our gunnery in Whitleys.
SB: Right.
HK: They’d got me down.
SB: Well, maybe not.
HK: No. I don’t know what happened. I think when I when I left some of my colleagues tried to burn the logbook I think [unclear]
Other 1: That’s stuck —
HK: You know, they were up to all sorts of things. So we didn’t let on. We didn’t sleep on the station. We slept out at a place called Ampton Hall.
SB: This was when you were at Honington you mean.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Ampton Hall.
HK: I think it was Ampton Hall, yeah.
SB: Right.
HK: I think it was owned by a Birmingham stockbroker but we all had to go out there at night and —
SB: Right.
HK: Because they were bombing the bomber stations.
SB: Yes.
HK: And some of the aircrew were getting killed so they —
SB: Right. Right. Right, now let’s have a look. This is Lossiemouth OTU.
HK: There was a couple of the leaflets we dropped you know.
SB: Oh, right. Yes. Yes. Nickels they were called weren’t they? Nickel raids.
HK: Yes.
SB: Leaflet dropping.
HK: Yes. We dropped those as well as the bombs you know.
SB: Yes. Yes indeed. I’ll come back to that if I may.
HK: Yeah.
SB: It’s interesting having a look at this. Right. This is so the landing at Middle Wallop was, was your first op. Your first —
HK: Was it the first op was it?
SB: Yes. To Dieppe.
HK: Ah. That’s when yeah we come, we come to the, one of, one of the channel ports. [unclear]
SB: Dieppe.
HK: Dieppe was it?
SB: Yeah.
HK: Yeah. The two battleships were there.
SB: Right. Then Boulogne and Kiel. Yes.
HK: You see.
SB: The weather wasn’t very good.
HK: I was flying before Pathfinders you see.
SB: Yes.
HK: I mean, it was like you know I mean we’d been I think it was Frankfurt one day and on the way back they were bombing, somebody was bombing Cologne and I remember our pilot, ‘Oh, let’s go and have a look what’s happening there.’ And off he went. You know. It’s just you see with Pathfinders you went, you bombed at the time and the height —
SB: Yes.
HK: You were told to. You bombed where your flare was.
SB: Yes.
HK: But in our day I mean we’d go to Intelligence and they’d say, ‘We suggest you go in here and can’t think —
SB: Now. Yes, I’m aware of this. When the strategic bombing campaign was put together by Arthur Harris that’s when he got into the main force thing.
HK: Yeah.
SB: And the Pathfinders. Now, prior to that you were very much on your own devices weren’t you?
HK: Oh yes. Yes. You know it was like a joy ride.
SB: So what, when you were all ops and you were on ops would the squadron take off together?
HK: Oh yes.
SB: It would still do that.
HK: Yes.
SB: Because I know some people have said in the very early days it was up to the captain when he wanted to go.
HK: Yes.
SB: But —
HK: I mean the navigator and the captain would decide which way they’d go.
SB: Right.
HK: They wouldn’t take any notice of what they were told at briefing.
SB: Right [laughs] Right.
HK: You know.
SB: Yeah.
HK: They’d come out and say, ‘No. We’ll go the same way as we went last time.’
SB: So you could quite often find yourself on your own I guess.
HK: Oh yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: There was nothing, you know. Not a cloud —
SB: No coordination.
HK: No.
SB: No.
HK: No.
SB: Oh gosh. Well, this is an interesting one. You spent eight and a half hours out over the Atlantic searching for the Prince Eugen.
HK: That was it. Was that the Bismark or was that —
SB: Prince Eugen.
HK: Ah, the Prince Eugen. Yeah. We never got, it was a terrible —
SB: No luck it says.
HK: A terrible day.
SB: Was it?
HK: Yeah.
SB: Wellingtons. I’d say the weather was bad because —
HK: Yeah. We never saw anything at all.
SB: Then we’ve got a night here. “Brest. It says beautiful moonlit night. A good runup. Plenty of activity.”
HK: Where was that there?
SB: Brest.
HK: Brest.
SB: A night op on Brest.
HK: The best night we had was a trip we did to Cologne. Oh, a beautiful moonlit night. I saw the cathedral you know and the rivers. Beautiful.
SB: Really?
HK: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. It must have felt a bit scary in a way though wasn’t it if the visibility was that good.
HK: Well, I think when you’re young you don’t see danger. Now I see danger in everything you see. But then I think most, most of the crews said a little prayer when they got in their turret before they’d go but I don’t, I can’t remember anybody ever being scared somehow. Yeah. I can’t say. Basically of course it was something I was desperate to do. So whatever it meant I would have done it. It was. Yeah, I was that way.
SB: Can I just go back to the OTU for a minute at Lossie?
HK: Yes.
SB: When you crewed up there.
HK: Yes.
SB: Yes. So was that the traditional method of just all being put together and —
HK: Yes.
SB: Sorting yourselves out.
HK: Yes. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: You know, you just got together and from then on you were a crew.
SB: A good crew generally would you say?
HK: Oh yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Well, of course you see our radio was a pilot officer.
SB: Right.
HK: The second pilot I don’t think he’d done more than ten hours solo.
SB: Oh right.
HK: Whereas —
SB: Right.
HK: You know, I mean if the navigator wasn’t, not that good but if he got the captain could bring us back by the stars.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: You know. He was an ex-regular and they were —
SB: Well, he was an ex-singles man wasn’t he? An ex-fighter man.
HK: Yes.
SB: So he would have had to be able to do that on his own wouldn’t he?
HK: Yes. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Oh, right.
HK: He was a very good pilot.
SB: Now, there’s one here. Hamburg.
HK: Oh.
SB: It says, “Shaky trip.’
HK: Yes.
SB: “Hit by flak. Held by searchlights. Bumped stomach on guns.”
HK: Yes. Oh, when we were shaken around I must have bumped my gun into my stomach somehow but you know —
SB: Then you’ve got Mannheim. “Held in the searchlights at Mannheim,” again it says.
HK: Yes.
SB: Then Hamm you’ve got. Well, this is when you went with Squadron Leader Ball.
HK: Aye. That would. Yes. We started a huge fire there. It lit up. Of course, we used to bomb from about eight thousand feet you know.
SB: Eight thousand feet.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Wow. Yeah.
HK: I mean we went to, you see with a full bomb load you couldn’t get the Wimpy much above ten thousand feet I don’t think. I stood by the pilot and I’ve seen the altimeter and I think we used to bomb from about eight thousand feet.
SB: Oh gosh.
HK: And they say I mean I reckon in those days we didn’t get within five miles of the target.
SB: That’s right. Yeah.
HK: But I don’t go for that.
SB: No, I don’t go for that at all but certainly the accuracy later on when you had Gee and H2S and all that —
HK: Different all.
SB: It was different. Yeah.
HK: It was a different life.
SB: Yeah.
HK: You were controlled you see.
SB: Yeah. That’s right.
HK: I mean when we went with Squadron Leader Ball we started this huge fire. It lit up the turret. You could tell. I think we must have hit an oil dump or something.
SB: Oh right. I see you’ve also put here on that same trip, “We weren’t too keen.”
HK: No. I think it’s the fact that we were used to Flight Lieutenant Edwards and this was his first trip you see.
SB: Right.
HK: As a bomber pilot.
SB: Oh, right. Right.
HK: And —
SB: Right.
HK: Well, I don’t know what happened because his next trip he’d gone.
SB: Oh really?
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right. So that was on the 7th of July ’41 so sometime shortly after that he was lost.
HK: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Within a week of that.
SB: In a week.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Now, your last op. The 12th of August ’41. Hanover. It says, “Good trip. Made about six runs.”
HK: Yes. Yeah. Lots of them, the fellows flying in those early days they wanted to fly and the only way they could fly was in the Air Force. I mean they couldn’t, we couldn’t afford to buy a plane or anything, you see.
SB: Sure. No.
HK: And they used to treat it as their own plane you see. We had some good fun really.
SB: Yeah. I can tell you liked it. I can tell you enjoyed it.
HK: Yes. Oh, I did.
SB: At briefing if we go back to ops briefing were you in main briefing or as a gunner did you have a separate briefing?
HK: No. Main briefed. We, all the crews were in together.
SB: Right.
HK: I’ll tell you who was there when I was there. Pickard was a squadron leader there.
SB: Right. Yes.
HK: And his navigator was a flight lieutenant when that was, a flight sergeant when I was there.
SB: Right. Right.
HK: Flight Sergeant Broadley.
SB: Ok.
HK: But they got killed on this.
SB: On the Amiens raid.
HK: On the prison break.
SB: Yes. Yes. That’s right. Well, a friend of mine who is a youngster compared to you he’s ninety one.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Lives near us. He was ground crew on 99 Squadron Wimpies at Newmarket.
HK: Yes.
SB: And he knew Pickard. Well, he’d met Pickard a number of times because Pickard used to drop into Newmarket in his Wimpy and Norm, the chap I’m talking about used to service Pickard’s aeroplane. He got to know Mrs Pickard after —
HK: Yes.
SB: Pickard died but a lot of respect for Pickard wasn’t there? I mean what —
HK: Oh yeah.
SB: What he did was extraordinary.
HK: Yeah. He was a fabulous pilot.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Well, it was down to him really the whole Pathfinder thing was put together wasn’t it?
HK: Yes. Well, of course they put him onto any, any difficult ones.
SB: Yeah.
HK: But important too.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Because he, yeah, the station commander was a fellow, Group Captain Gray.
SB: Right.
HK: And the squadron commander was Wing Commander Arnold.
SB: Right.
HK: And he got killed on the one. We used to be coming by bus from our where we were and be in the Mess and we were there one morning they said, ‘We want two crews to do a daylight raid on the Dutch coast. There was a sudden rush. I went with them. I don’t know whether we were going or getting away from it. Pickard was, he went with the squadron commander, Wing Commander Arnold. Pickard was ok but Arnold got shot down and killed.
SB: Oh right.
HK: But Pickard got back ok. But he was a good, well of course he was a regular of course Pickard was.
SB: Oh, he was absolutely. Yes. Just to tell you a little story a chap I was talking to last week you think about your Junkers 88 encounter at Tangmere.
HK: Yeah.
SB: He was, this chap was a bomb aimer in on 70 Squadron in the Middle East and he was telling me about a raid on the Ploesti oilfields in Romania.
HK: Yes. Yeah.
SB: And they went in there at ten, twelve thousand feet again I think and they had a fighter come up behind them so they did what you did. The corkscrew down to throw the fighter off and threw him off.
HK: Yeah.
SB: But then they were going over the target at about two thousand feet so then of course they were worried about bombs coming down from above.
HK: Yeah.
SB: And anti-aircraft fire coming up from below but they got away with it. Headed back to base. Now, this is really saying the same thing that you were saying about well they were pilots, it was their aeroplane. Have a bit of fun and on the way back, they were operating out of Italy, this was a night op some, probably the guy, probably the wireless operator in the astrodome I think looked out and said, ‘There’s something close to us with his nav lights on.’ And they thought what’s this then? So they thought about it and they thought well the only reason you’d have your nav lights on was because you were going into land somewhere.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So it must be a German. So there must be an airfield around here somewhere. So, ‘Let’s go and have a look boys,’ [laughs] you know.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So they went and had a look at this thing and it was a Junkers 88. So the captain, the skipper says, ‘Well, it’s night they could easily mistake a Wellington for a Junkers 88. We’ll join the circuit. Have a bit of fun.’ So they put their nav lights on and they flew around behind this Junkers 88 following the circuit. ‘With a bit of luck they’ll give us a green because they’ll think we’re just another one.’ Which they did. So they went in on approach. As soon as they got the green, wheels up, throttle open, fly down along the runway as low as they could. The guy in the front turret firing to the left. The guy in the rear turret firing to the right and got away with it. And on the way [laughs] on the way back the skipper said to all the crew, ‘Don’t tell anybody what we’ve just done. When we go to debriefing you keep quiet about this.’
HK: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: But the wing commander found out about it.
HK: Well, of course. That was, I imagine really that you needed the Pathfinder.
SB: Yeah.
HK: To really make it worthwhile.
SB: Oh yeah.
HK: Because really to us it was like our own little trip you know. We, we did what we wanted to.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: I mean we’d take off in sort of within two or three minutes of each other and yet we’d come back within hours and you could tell they’d been doing something apart from —
SB: Yeah. I think your eight and a half hour trip was the longest one you did. That’s about —
HK: Yes.
SB: The longest you could do wasn’t it really.
HK: Yes.
SB: Yes. There is a six hour forty. Oh, seven hours to Kiel.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Oh, and six hours fifty. Mannheim. So some longish ones.
HK: Yes.
SB: Right. Let’s have, let’s have a look at this. Can I just have a pace through.
HK: Sure. Yes. That was in —
SB: This is your family. Where did, where did you come from originally Harry?
HK: I was born in Hockley.
SB: Oh right.
HK: In Birmingham.
SB: Oh right.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right.
HK: And my father he was I didn’t realise until my younger, I’ve got two sons.
SB: Right.
HK: The younger one is in Brussels and he was fiddling about on the computer about six months ago and said, ‘Did you realise that your father, your grandfather, your paternal grandfather was born in [unclear]?’ I said, ‘No. I didn’t.’ That was my father in the First World War but he was born in Newtown, Birmingham.
SB: So what that one or that one?
HK: The second one.
SB: The second. Oh, ok. So —
HK: Yeah.
SB: Second row back, right hand end.
HK: Yes. He was doing the [pause] the fabric on the plane.
SB: Ah ok. So he was a rigger.
HK: Yes.
SB: Right.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Oh yeah. I’ve just seen that picture here. That’s fascinating.
HK: That’s before we were there.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
HK: Yes, it’s but you see really to me I started off at Blackpool. What can you want better than that?
SB: Well, that’s right.
HK: You know, everything. And people of course you went in the pubs and they’d treat you to a drink you see. Yatesbury wasn’t so good.
SB: Now, is this, is this ITW or is this —
HK: No, that’s IT, that’s Blackpool.
SB: That is Blackpool.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right. Yes. Ok.
HK: Yeah. What happened there that was at a farm in Devon. Ottery St Mary.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Then the son of the owner got killed. He was on 9 Squadron.
SB: Oh.
HK: Same time as me.
SB: Oh right.
HK: And he went missing.
SB: Oh, he was another air gunner was he?
HK: No. He was a pilot.
SB: He was a pilot. Right.
HK: Yeah. All these others are [pause] but —
SB: A smart looking chap. When did you actually come out of the Air Force then? When did you —
HK: ’46.
SB: ’46.
HK: I did six years.
SB: Right.
HK: I’d have liked to have stopped in but of course I was much too old. They didn’t want people of my age.
SB: Right.
HK: See I was thirty, I’d be about thirty three when I came out in ’46. Yeah.
SB: Well, you were the old man of the crew I suppose.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Weren’t you?
HK: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: You see really I was too old to get anywhere you know. They didn’t want, you see I was twenty, I was in my twenty seventh year when I went for my aircrew selection.
SB: Right.
HK: And I think right away but if they might have done they wouldn’t have had me.
SB: I was too old you see.
HK: Right. What were you doing before the war then? What, what was your job?
SB: Well, I started off in an accountant’s office but he was a certified accountant because in those days you had to be articled for chartered or incorporated. And then I left there to keep an office, keep the books of an office and found that I could do it in half the time so I went out selling. It was selling belting and belt fastenings and that sort of stuff. But I’ve had, I’ve had a great life. I came out of the Air Force and my job had gone so I was, did the selling part and then I went to, I’ve always been a gambler.
SB: Right.
HK: And I went to Royal Ascot with a couple of Birmingham businessmen and I backed a horse on the terrace. I had a fiver on it at ninety to one and I thought heck I don’t know what I’m going to do with this money. They said, ‘I’ll tell you what if you leave your job we’ve got a business that is doing no good at all. We’ll give you a third share for that. So that’s what I did. I left my job and did that. Eventually bought them out. Then I sold out to Neville Industrial Securities and then I had a house in, we had a house in Florida.
SB: Oh right.
HK: I bought, I had originally the fellow that built this lot was a director of Birmingham City Football Club.
SB: Right.
HK: And I was a director of Aston Villa Football Club and he got me to buy a penthouse. Then when I retired I sold the penthouse.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Bought this flat and a house in Florida near Orlando.
SB: Oh right. Right. Very good.
HK: But as I say I’ve gambled all my life and I was playing the Stock Market. It must be oh a hell of a long time ago and I could buy shares in America and before I’d gone and paid for them they’d gone up and I could sell them and make money. But of course I got caught and lost all my money on the —
SB: Oh, did you? Oh dear.
HK: Yeah. But you know it’s, it hasn’t made much difference.
SB: Now, would you mind if I take photographs of your logbook? Is that ok?
HK: Do you want, you tell me what you want to do and —
SB: Well, I’ve got to have a shot of you as well, Harry. So —
HK: Oh God.
[pause – camera clicking]
SB: Another one to be sure.
HK: Ok.
SB: Lovely. Thank you. Can I go where there’s a bit of daylight?
HK: Anywhere. Yes. Ok.
Other: Do you want me to hold the album?
SB: Actually, I think it would be alright here.
HK: Yes. Really I’ve been ever so lucky. Well, I still am. See I can still drive.
Other: Yes.
HK: And still not too bad. Not perfect mind and I have bad days. Which of course as I say at my age you know you can.
SB: I think you’re allowed to aren’t you Harry?
HK: Yes.
SB: I think you’re allowed to occasionally aren’t you?
HK: Yeah. The main trouble is you see I went to hers. I say I’ve done my shopping, coffee, bed. I’m back here by half past nine then go all day. I see nobody. My two lads one lives in Worcester. The other one lives in Brussels. They phone me every day but I, oh perhaps the one in Brussels I see perhaps once or twice, three times a year.
Other: Yeah.
HK: The other one calls in perhaps every two or three weeks and we’ve been going to America every year. We go racing.
Other: Right.
HK: And we usually we go you see I have a house in Orlando so we go and visit friends there.
Other: Right.
HK: Then my youngest son’s got relatives on his wife’s side who were in Ocala in Florida. So we go there. Then we motor down to St Petersburg and go racing at Tampa Bay down to St Petersburg. Then we come back. Whether we shall go this year depends on how I if I can cope.
Other: Right.
HK: But you know its [pause] I’m still very lucky at my age to be able to. But my six years in the forces were the six best years of my life really. But, but the years go past. We were married seventy two years.
SB: Oh really.
Other: Really?
HK: I’ve got two photographs of the Queen that you know when I think of sixty five and one at seventy years. Oh dear [pause] It’s, do you, do you do any, have you got a job at all?
Other: I don’t. I’ve been bringing up my children so I’m looking for a job at the moment.
HK: Yeah. They’re not easy to get are they?
Other: No.
HK: See really I’ve lived during a good time because there was never any problem getting a job you see. I mean, I was never, I’ve never been out of work at all.
Other: No.
HK: But today I would hate it. I mean you could be really well qualified and you still can’t.
Other: No, you can’t.
HK: I mean see the people who I used to sell stuff to the companies have gone. British Leyland. Rover Motor Company.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Morris cars. [unclear] they weren’t, they’ve all gone. Of course, life alters all the time doesn’t it?
Other: It does.
HK: And you’ve just got to there’s no use complaining. You’ve got to accept it haven’t you?
Other: Yes.
SB: Not a lot you can do about it is there really?
HK: Nothing at all. I mean there’s no use moaning.
SB: No.
HK: Just got to. Fortunately, as I say I’m a gambler and I can go in the betting shop in the morning, put my bet on, come home and watch it on television you see. So something and then of course all sport like tomorrow I’ve got well today the Masters starts in Augusta and I’ve got five there to watch.
Other: Yes.
HK: And it’s something. You must have an interest you see.
Other: Yes.
HK: And I try and get out every day although some days it’s a bit of a problem you know. But —
Other: Did you put a bet on the Grand National?
HK: Yes. I didn’t back the winner but it’s I only bet small now.
SB: When you did your Civil Air Guard flying did you say you went solo?
HK: Yes.
SB: What sort of aeroplane were you flying?
HK: A Tiger Moth.
SB: Right. Right.
HK: Yeah. Well, anybody could fly one of those. I mean I used to land one side of the airport and the pilot was taking off again to get to the Clubhouse you know. But and then we moved from Castle Bromwich to Oldham.
SB: Yes.
HK: And I think they lost all my papers or something. I don’t know.
SB: Oh right.
HK: But as I say I was really too old. They wanted the eighteen year olds and that.
SB: Yes. Yes. That’s right.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right. Well, that’s great.
HK: Anything else you want?
SB: Is there anything else you can think of that we haven’t really asked you about or —
HK: Not really. No.
SB: No. I mean, I’m very grateful to you. That’s really good.
HK: No. Nothing really.
SB: Ok. Would you mind signing a couple of things for me please?
HK: I will do. I’m not very, I’m not very —
SB: Well, that’s very good.
HK: Only losers. I don’t back many winners. But I picked five of the Masters, you know.
SB: Oh yes. Right.
HK: I’ll always have them [unclear]
SB: Who have you picked?
HK: Mccoy. McIlroy.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Keegan Bradley. Graeme McDowell.
SB: Yes.
HK: Phil Mackelson, Phil Mickelson.
SB: Right.
HK: And I’ve got another one I can’t remember and I picked five out of it. It’s, see it’s something for me to watch.
SB: Yes.
HK: You know, because I can’t do anything but sit so I spend my time watching television mostly. But my wife died about fifteen months ago.
SB: Oh.
HK: And she was ninety five.
SB: Was she?
HK: So I don’t, I’ve turned the third, the third bedroom into a den and that’s where I spend my life. It’s easy to keep warm anyhow. But anyhow —
SB: Right.
HK: Now, you want to get cracking.
SB: Well, let’s, let’s explain what it is all about.
HK: Yes.
SB: So 9 Squadron gave me your name. I’ve done a few books. I’m ex-Air Force as well. I was Air Force ’73 to ’95.
HK: Yes.
SB: And for the last few years I’ve been doing books. Primarily aviation history books, especially Second World War but not exclusively and a little while ago my publisher said to me, ‘What are you going to do next?’ And I thought about doing the Wimpy because over thirty odd years that I’ve been having these chats with people like yourself.
HK: Yeah.
SB: I’ve got quite a bit from Wimpy chaps and if you look at all the books that have been published about aircraft over the years there have been dozens about the Lancaster.
HK: Yes.
SB: And dozens about the Spitfire and —
HK: Yeah.
SB: And the poor old Wimpy hasn’t been dealt much of a good hand really. So I thought well maybe it’s high time that we did a good book about the Wimpy. So I said that to him. He said, ‘Oh yes. Great. When can you do it?’ So what I like to do when I do these books is not just say this is what happened. This squadron was formed so and so. I want the personal accounts.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Much better to get what happened straight from the horse’s mouth whether the person was air crew, ground crew, whatever.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So I had about seven or eight tapes with Wimpy chaps I’ve got over the years. So I thought well let’s see what interest there is out there. So I put an appeal on one of the websites and within forty eight hours I had responses from ten Wimpy veterans. Well, I’m up to thirty now.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So what I’m doing at the moment is trawling around the country dragging my daughter behind having chats with people like yourself.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So what I really want to do Harry is just chat through —
HK: Yeah.
SB: Your service career and we’ll just pick out anything of —
HK: Well —
SB: Interest as we go.
HK: I, I’m an awkward sort of individual. I mean, I don’t, I haven’t got a, I shan’t send for the clasp and I haven’t, I haven’t even got my aircrew uniform. My ambition was to be a pilot.
SB: Right.
HK: But I never made it.
SB: Right.
HK: And I mean to me it’s over. But, you know I’m, I would have paid to do what I did.
SB: Really?
HK: Because it was something I wanted to do. You see, I was in Germany about three or four weeks before the war started.
SB: Right.
HK: And as I say I was awkward when I was younger. I’ve matured now. But —
SB: What were you doing in Germany at that time then?
HK: Oh, well we were on holiday. I was touring France, Switzerland and Germany.
SB: Oh right.
HK: And we had a lovely night at Frederikshavn and they’d got a tea dance up. They really were living well in Germany in those days you know. Anyhow, you tell me what you want me to do.
SB: Ok. Well, I just want to chat really. So let’s start at the beginning. When did you join up?
HK: 1940.
SB: Ok.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So, what were you hoping? Were you hoping to be a pilot still at that time then were you?
HK: Yeah. You see, everyone knew the war was coming.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Twelve months before. So I joined the Civil Air Guard.
SB: Right.
HK: But of course in those days you couldn’t just leave your job so I couldn’t go very often to have a flying, to meet my instructor you see.
SB: Right.
HK: And just as I’d gone solo the war started.
SB: Right. Ok.
HK: And they, we went into the Air Force but I think I told you I went down to Cardington.
SB: Right.
HK: And I wasn’t clever enough to be a pilot.
SB: Right.
HK: You know, and, but that was something that was my main ambition you see because when I was younger I used to go to Blackpool for a few days and I went to Squire’s Gate.
SB: Yes.
HK: And had a trip there. They got me.
SB: Right.
HK: And I thought to myself [unclear] I thought what I’ll do I’ll do half my trip and I’ve always been sick even when I was very young. I went to Aberystwyth with my grandmother and we went to Devil’s Bridge and I was sick on the coach.
SB: Oh right.
HK: And I can’t, I couldn’t travel as a passenger so that they didn’t once I’d been sick I was fit as a fiddle so I’d [unclear] in the end. Then I thought I’d do half a trip then I’ll, I’ll talk them into letting me be a pilot because I’ll be ok. I won’t be sick you see.
SB: Right.
HK: With something to do.
SB: Right.
HK: But of course I was wrong. I wasn’t clever enough and so I did seventeen trips.
SB: Right.
HK: And then I put this [laughs] I thought, I thought I was good enough to do what I wanted to do. Anyhow, they sent me to a psychologist at Ely.
SB: Oh yes.
HK: And he took me off flying altogether [unclear] but so I failed there.
SB: But why did they do that then?
HK: Well, I don’t know. See I tried to talk them into the fact that if I’d got something to do [pause] you see I could drive a car no problem but as a passenger I was sick you see and I put it to him. But anyhow, he put me off flying altogether. So then I went all the way. I started off because I was with the University Air Squadron instructing on guns and signals and then they put me onto filters. Do you know about filters. The simulated radar.
SB: Yes. Yes.
HK: At Bawtry. I did six weeks of an eight weeks course.
SB: Right.
HK: And then they found out I hadn’t done the Fighter Command Psychology Tests.
SB: Oh.
HK: So they took me off that and put me on to Flying Control.
SB: Oh right.
HK: Which I, they sent me eventually to Watchfield which was the —
SB: Yeah.
HK: Base for that.
SB: Yeah.
HK: And I wouldn’t go. I refused to go on the course.
SB: Oh, did you?
HK: You know, I was, I was stupid really. And so I just wandered around there and eventually they put me back on to the filter course.
SB: Right.
HK: And I got a commission in filter duties.
SB: Right.
HK: I went to Inverness. 13 Group. And then eventually they, they sent us to I think it was Ceylon or India and so on. We were getting ready for the invasion of Singapore.
SB: Right.
HK: We were mobile ops filter.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
HK: Unfortunately, it was one thing I wasn’t very keen on because we’d got to go in on the first day you see and but fortunately the Americans dropped the atomic bomb.
SB: Yes.
HK: And we, I had a great time [laughs] in India.
SB: Oh right [laughs]
HK: Anyhow —
SB: Right.
HK: There was one other thing.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Somebody phoned up about two years ago and said, ‘Did you ever fly with Squadron Leader Ball?’ I said, ‘No.’ I said, ‘I’ve done all my flights with flight lieutenant [pause] oh wait. No, I did. Yes. I did one trip.’ He said, ‘Well, that was my uncle.’ And he came to 9 Squadron and his first trip he had picked an experienced crew to go with him.
SB: Yeah.
HK: And we did a trip. I forget where we went. Anyhow, it was ok and the next trip he went with his own crew and they were never heard of again.
SB: Really?
HK: And so he wanted me, this fellow, his uncle was doing the prints and said, ‘We’d like, would you sign a hundred and fifty copies?’ [pause] ‘I don’t know about that.’ He said, ‘We’ll pay you.’ I said, ‘’I don’t want paying.’ Anyhow, they came along and in two efforts I signed a hundred and fifty and they gave me —
SB: That’s a nice print isn’t it.
HK: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: I signed it there.
SB: Right.
HK: But otherwise, you know it —
SB: Right. Could we, could we go back a bit?
HK: Yeah.
SB: Just going back to before the war again. Just briefly, the Civil Air Guard.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Where were you doing that? Where was that flying?
HK: That was at Dumfries. You see, I really, the Air Force, the six years I was in once I’d got past the wireless op’s course at Yatesbury —
SB: Yeah.
HK: Oh, it was like being on holiday. It was a great life because you see we didn’t do guard duties or anything.
SB: No.
HK: As aircrew and we lived on the best of food and everything and I did my gunnery course at Dumfries.
SB: Right.
HK: Wireless op. I started off at Blackpool.
SB: Yes.
HK: With my square bashing.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Then to Yatesbury for wireless.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Then to Dumfries. And then from there to Lossiemouth for OTU.
SB: Right. Ok.
HK: And then from there to Honington and then I went all over the place.
SB: Right. Right. So when did you arrive on the squadron? When? What —
HK: It would be [pause] it would be the early part of ’41.
SB: Ok. And you did seventeen trips you say.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right. So do any of those stand out in the memory as particularly memorable or —
HK: Well, you know it was something I enjoyed doing. And we did a trip to bomb the two battleships the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau and on the way back it was the night that the Germans were raiding the fighter aerodromes.
SB: Right.
HK: And our pilot he was an ex-fighter pilot. He was shot down over the Channel and transferred to bombers and I think he went, instead of going back to Honington he wanted to land at Tangmere to see his pals. We, he asked Flying Control for permission to land and they said OK. And they said, ‘Do you want, do you want the flare path on.’ ‘Oh yes,’ he said, ‘Please.’ They said, ‘Well, fire your colours of the day and we’ll put it.’ And he did that and when he fired his colours of the day a Junkers 88 sat in at the back of us. Fortunately, they whipped off the flare path and he had to take off and the Junkers 88 dropped a firebomb at the back of us. Fortunately, we take [unclear] and I was in the astrodome because you couldn’t [pause] to take off and land you had to, you couldn’t do it in the turret and as I stood there they, they got the Junkers 88 in the searchlights and I saw the pilot and co-pilot as plain as could be. But of course I was in this astrodome so I couldn’t shoot them at all but, and eventually we landed at Middle Wallop.
SB: Oh right. Yes. Yeah. So you were front turret.
HK: Yes. I was, I was the second wireless op but I was no good.
SB: Right [laughs]
HK: No good. I wasn’t very good at anything. But I mean the guns is easy because they fired themselves you know. And I really enjoyed it you know.
SB: Yeah.
HK: It’s amazing.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: I think I got everything I wanted you see. I mean there was comradeship. There was plenty of sport. I mean, I was playing sport and there was no work you see.
SB: What was your crew then? Who was your regular crew? The pilot was who?
HK: The pilot was Flight Lieutenant Edwards and then there was a Yorkshire, a youngish Yorkshire called Bonny Clayton. He was the number two pilot. There was a regular on the wireless. I think it, what was his name? And then there was the navigator was a fellow who used to work at Lewis’ in Birmingham. A fellow named Dilbert.
SB: Yes.
HK: And the rear gunner was a Taylor. Robert Taylor. But you know —
SB: So were all your ops, all your seventeen trips were they all nights or were they days?
HK: All nights.
SB: Yeah.
HK: We went to one day trip after the Tirpitz. Was it the Tirpitz? They sent us out but it was a bad day. Visibility was terrible. We never found it at all.
SB: Right. Right.
HK: But —
SB: Apart from your close encounter at Tangmere with a Junkers 88 —
HK: Yeah.
SB: Were there any other times when either you had some flak damage or any other fighters took interest in you.
HK: Yeah. We came back with holes in the fuselage but of course the Wimpy would withstand anything you know. It was the only danger with a Wimpy was fire because it was a fabric covered —
SB: Yeah.
HK: Plane.
SB: Yeah.
HK: But yes, we had to drop ration cards in Hamburg.
SB: Really?
SB: German, yeah with the Hamburg stamp and everything on them and we had to be [bang] down and the, and our navigator he missed it first time around and so we had to go around again. And on the second trip we got coned when all the and these I still remember my reaction was to get back in my turret and think they can’t see me then. Then afterwards you silly old fool you know. But fortunately I think being by the sea our pilot was able to drop down and —
SB: So he did a corkscrew down to get out of the searchlights.
HK: Oh yes. He did a lot of twisting and that.
SB: Right.
HK: And of course he said that, I remember the rear gunner said, ‘Did you say abandon aircraft?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘I said prepare to abandon aircraft.’ But of course in the front turret you couldn’t get out. They’d got to come and open your bulkhead door.
SB: Oh right.
HK: Because the rear gunner just whipped his turret around and went out but you couldn’t do it in the front or else you went into the props you see.
SB: Sure. Yeah.
HK: And of course with him dodging around nobody opened the door. But it was years afterwards I suddenly realised that nobody had opened the bulkhead door. But as I say it was something I wanted to do you see and as I say I would have paid to do it.
SB: Yeah. Have you got your logbook?
HK: Yes.
SB: Can we have a go through it?
HK: Yes. Sure.
[pause]
HK: You see that [pause] that was, that came yesterday.
SB: Ah.
HK: That’s the logbook.
SB: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Harry.
[pause]
SB: Average pupil. Average pupil.
HK: Yes.
SB: Worked. Worked well but still requires further air training.
HK: I was only average.
SB: Oh Whitley. Oh, that’s interesting.
HK: Where?
SB: Whitley. You flew, you did training in Whitleys.
HK: Yes. Yeah.
SB: Ah. What did you think of that? Didn’t like it?
HK: They used to call them the coffin ship you see.
SB: Yeah.
HK: They were. I mean the Wellington in my opinion was the best plane produced and I mean a beautiful plane.
SB: What makes you say that? What was so, what was so special about it for you?
HK: Well, it could withstand any amount of battering you know. I mean some of them came back with more or less the whole fuselage ripped in all sorts of places you know.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: And it stood up. But yes I did Whitleys and I can’t remember they’ve got me down as flying in a Fairey Battle as well.
SB: Oh really.
HK: I think so. Somewhere.
SB: Domini, Whitley, Anson, then Wellingtons. This must be OTU at Lossie.
HK: But —
SB: Oh ok.
HK: At the front is it? Has it got it there?
SB: No. Not, no [pause] Dominis and Whitleys.
HK: Are you sure [pause] I thought [pause] I don’t know. It’s a long time ago.
SB: Well, yes.
HK: I thought [pause – pages turning] Domini one, Whitley, Whitley, Whitley [unclear] [pause – pages turning] Yes. I did, we did our gunnery in Whitleys.
SB: Right.
HK: They’d got me down.
SB: Well, maybe not.
HK: No. I don’t know what happened. I think when I when I left some of my colleagues tried to burn the logbook I think [unclear]
Other 1: That’s stuck —
HK: You know, they were up to all sorts of things. So we didn’t let on. We didn’t sleep on the station. We slept out at a place called Ampton Hall.
SB: This was when you were at Honington you mean.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Ampton Hall.
HK: I think it was Ampton Hall, yeah.
SB: Right.
HK: I think it was owned by a Birmingham stockbroker but we all had to go out there at night and —
SB: Right.
HK: Because they were bombing the bomber stations.
SB: Yes.
HK: And some of the aircrew were getting killed so they —
SB: Right. Right. Right, now let’s have a look. This is Lossiemouth OTU.
HK: There was a couple of the leaflets we dropped you know.
SB: Oh, right. Yes. Yes. Nickels they were called weren’t they? Nickel raids.
HK: Yes.
SB: Leaflet dropping.
HK: Yes. We dropped those as well as the bombs you know.
SB: Yes. Yes indeed. I’ll come back to that if I may.
HK: Yeah.
SB: It’s interesting having a look at this. Right. This is so the landing at Middle Wallop was, was your first op. Your first —
HK: Was it the first op was it?
SB: Yes. To Dieppe.
HK: Ah. That’s when yeah we come, we come to the, one of, one of the channel ports. [unclear]
SB: Dieppe.
HK: Dieppe was it?
SB: Yeah.
HK: Yeah. The two battleships were there.
SB: Right. Then Boulogne and Kiel. Yes.
HK: You see.
SB: The weather wasn’t very good.
HK: I was flying before Pathfinders you see.
SB: Yes.
HK: I mean, it was like you know I mean we’d been I think it was Frankfurt one day and on the way back they were bombing, somebody was bombing Cologne and I remember our pilot, ‘Oh, let’s go and have a look what’s happening there.’ And off he went. You know. It’s just you see with Pathfinders you went, you bombed at the time and the height —
SB: Yes.
HK: You were told to. You bombed where your flare was.
SB: Yes.
HK: But in our day I mean we’d go to Intelligence and they’d say, ‘We suggest you go in here and can’t think —
SB: Now. Yes, I’m aware of this. When the strategic bombing campaign was put together by Arthur Harris that’s when he got into the main force thing.
HK: Yeah.
SB: And the Pathfinders. Now, prior to that you were very much on your own devices weren’t you?
HK: Oh yes. Yes. You know it was like a joy ride.
SB: So what, when you were all ops and you were on ops would the squadron take off together?
HK: Oh yes.
SB: It would still do that.
HK: Yes.
SB: Because I know some people have said in the very early days it was up to the captain when he wanted to go.
HK: Yes.
SB: But —
HK: I mean the navigator and the captain would decide which way they’d go.
SB: Right.
HK: They wouldn’t take any notice of what they were told at briefing.
SB: Right [laughs] Right.
HK: You know.
SB: Yeah.
HK: They’d come out and say, ‘No. We’ll go the same way as we went last time.’
SB: So you could quite often find yourself on your own I guess.
HK: Oh yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: There was nothing, you know. Not a cloud —
SB: No coordination.
HK: No.
SB: No.
HK: No.
SB: Oh gosh. Well, this is an interesting one. You spent eight and a half hours out over the Atlantic searching for the Prince Eugen.
HK: That was it. Was that the Bismark or was that —
SB: Prince Eugen.
HK: Ah, the Prince Eugen. Yeah. We never got, it was a terrible —
SB: No luck it says.
HK: A terrible day.
SB: Was it?
HK: Yeah.
SB: Wellingtons. I’d say the weather was bad because —
HK: Yeah. We never saw anything at all.
SB: Then we’ve got a night here. “Brest. It says beautiful moonlit night. A good runup. Plenty of activity.”
HK: Where was that there?
SB: Brest.
HK: Brest.
SB: A night op on Brest.
HK: The best night we had was a trip we did to Cologne. Oh, a beautiful moonlit night. I saw the cathedral you know and the rivers. Beautiful.
SB: Really?
HK: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. It must have felt a bit scary in a way though wasn’t it if the visibility was that good.
HK: Well, I think when you’re young you don’t see danger. Now I see danger in everything you see. But then I think most, most of the crews said a little prayer when they got in their turret before they’d go but I don’t, I can’t remember anybody ever being scared somehow. Yeah. I can’t say. Basically of course it was something I was desperate to do. So whatever it meant I would have done it. It was. Yeah, I was that way.
SB: Can I just go back to the OTU for a minute at Lossie?
HK: Yes.
SB: When you crewed up there.
HK: Yes.
SB: Yes. So was that the traditional method of just all being put together and —
HK: Yes.
SB: Sorting yourselves out.
HK: Yes. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: You know, you just got together and from then on you were a crew.
SB: A good crew generally would you say?
HK: Oh yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Well, of course you see our radio was a pilot officer.
SB: Right.
HK: The second pilot I don’t think he’d done more than ten hours solo.
SB: Oh right.
HK: Whereas —
SB: Right.
HK: You know, I mean if the navigator wasn’t, not that good but if he got the captain could bring us back by the stars.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: You know. He was an ex-regular and they were —
SB: Well, he was an ex-singles man wasn’t he? An ex-fighter man.
HK: Yes.
SB: So he would have had to be able to do that on his own wouldn’t he?
HK: Yes. Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Oh, right.
HK: He was a very good pilot.
SB: Now, there’s one here. Hamburg.
HK: Oh.
SB: It says, “Shaky trip.’
HK: Yes.
SB: “Hit by flak. Held by searchlights. Bumped stomach on guns.”
HK: Yes. Oh, when we were shaken around I must have bumped my gun into my stomach somehow but you know —
SB: Then you’ve got Mannheim. “Held in the searchlights at Mannheim,” again it says.
HK: Yes.
SB: Then Hamm you’ve got. Well, this is when you went with Squadron Leader Ball.
HK: Aye. That would. Yes. We started a huge fire there. It lit up. Of course, we used to bomb from about eight thousand feet you know.
SB: Eight thousand feet.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Wow. Yeah.
HK: I mean we went to, you see with a full bomb load you couldn’t get the Wimpy much above ten thousand feet I don’t think. I stood by the pilot and I’ve seen the altimeter and I think we used to bomb from about eight thousand feet.
SB: Oh gosh.
HK: And they say I mean I reckon in those days we didn’t get within five miles of the target.
SB: That’s right. Yeah.
HK: But I don’t go for that.
SB: No, I don’t go for that at all but certainly the accuracy later on when you had Gee and H2S and all that —
HK: Different all.
SB: It was different. Yeah.
HK: It was a different life.
SB: Yeah.
HK: You were controlled you see.
SB: Yeah. That’s right.
HK: I mean when we went with Squadron Leader Ball we started this huge fire. It lit up the turret. You could tell. I think we must have hit an oil dump or something.
SB: Oh right. I see you’ve also put here on that same trip, “We weren’t too keen.”
HK: No. I think it’s the fact that we were used to Flight Lieutenant Edwards and this was his first trip you see.
SB: Right.
HK: As a bomber pilot.
SB: Oh, right. Right.
HK: And —
SB: Right.
HK: Well, I don’t know what happened because his next trip he’d gone.
SB: Oh really?
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right. So that was on the 7th of July ’41 so sometime shortly after that he was lost.
HK: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Within a week of that.
SB: In a week.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Now, your last op. The 12th of August ’41. Hanover. It says, “Good trip. Made about six runs.”
HK: Yes. Yeah. Lots of them, the fellows flying in those early days they wanted to fly and the only way they could fly was in the Air Force. I mean they couldn’t, we couldn’t afford to buy a plane or anything, you see.
SB: Sure. No.
HK: And they used to treat it as their own plane you see. We had some good fun really.
SB: Yeah. I can tell you liked it. I can tell you enjoyed it.
HK: Yes. Oh, I did.
SB: At briefing if we go back to ops briefing were you in main briefing or as a gunner did you have a separate briefing?
HK: No. Main briefed. We, all the crews were in together.
SB: Right.
HK: I’ll tell you who was there when I was there. Pickard was a squadron leader there.
SB: Right. Yes.
HK: And his navigator was a flight lieutenant when that was, a flight sergeant when I was there.
SB: Right. Right.
HK: Flight Sergeant Broadley.
SB: Ok.
HK: But they got killed on this.
SB: On the Amiens raid.
HK: On the prison break.
SB: Yes. Yes. That’s right. Well, a friend of mine who is a youngster compared to you he’s ninety one.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Lives near us. He was ground crew on 99 Squadron Wimpies at Newmarket.
HK: Yes.
SB: And he knew Pickard. Well, he’d met Pickard a number of times because Pickard used to drop into Newmarket in his Wimpy and Norm, the chap I’m talking about used to service Pickard’s aeroplane. He got to know Mrs Pickard after —
HK: Yes.
SB: Pickard died but a lot of respect for Pickard wasn’t there? I mean what —
HK: Oh yeah.
SB: What he did was extraordinary.
HK: Yeah. He was a fabulous pilot.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Well, it was down to him really the whole Pathfinder thing was put together wasn’t it?
HK: Yes. Well, of course they put him onto any, any difficult ones.
SB: Yeah.
HK: But important too.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Because he, yeah, the station commander was a fellow, Group Captain Gray.
SB: Right.
HK: And the squadron commander was Wing Commander Arnold.
SB: Right.
HK: And he got killed on the one. We used to be coming by bus from our where we were and be in the Mess and we were there one morning they said, ‘We want two crews to do a daylight raid on the Dutch coast. There was a sudden rush. I went with them. I don’t know whether we were going or getting away from it. Pickard was, he went with the squadron commander, Wing Commander Arnold. Pickard was ok but Arnold got shot down and killed.
SB: Oh right.
HK: But Pickard got back ok. But he was a good, well of course he was a regular of course Pickard was.
SB: Oh, he was absolutely. Yes. Just to tell you a little story a chap I was talking to last week you think about your Junkers 88 encounter at Tangmere.
HK: Yeah.
SB: He was, this chap was a bomb aimer in on 70 Squadron in the Middle East and he was telling me about a raid on the Ploesti oilfields in Romania.
HK: Yes. Yeah.
SB: And they went in there at ten, twelve thousand feet again I think and they had a fighter come up behind them so they did what you did. The corkscrew down to throw the fighter off and threw him off.
HK: Yeah.
SB: But then they were going over the target at about two thousand feet so then of course they were worried about bombs coming down from above.
HK: Yeah.
SB: And anti-aircraft fire coming up from below but they got away with it. Headed back to base. Now, this is really saying the same thing that you were saying about well they were pilots, it was their aeroplane. Have a bit of fun and on the way back, they were operating out of Italy, this was a night op some, probably the guy, probably the wireless operator in the astrodome I think looked out and said, ‘There’s something close to us with his nav lights on.’ And they thought what’s this then? So they thought about it and they thought well the only reason you’d have your nav lights on was because you were going into land somewhere.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So it must be a German. So there must be an airfield around here somewhere. So, ‘Let’s go and have a look boys,’ [laughs] you know.
HK: Yeah.
SB: So they went and had a look at this thing and it was a Junkers 88. So the captain, the skipper says, ‘Well, it’s night they could easily mistake a Wellington for a Junkers 88. We’ll join the circuit. Have a bit of fun.’ So they put their nav lights on and they flew around behind this Junkers 88 following the circuit. ‘With a bit of luck they’ll give us a green because they’ll think we’re just another one.’ Which they did. So they went in on approach. As soon as they got the green, wheels up, throttle open, fly down along the runway as low as they could. The guy in the front turret firing to the left. The guy in the rear turret firing to the right and got away with it. And on the way [laughs] on the way back the skipper said to all the crew, ‘Don’t tell anybody what we’ve just done. When we go to debriefing you keep quiet about this.’
HK: Yeah. Yeah.
SB: But the wing commander found out about it.
HK: Well, of course. That was, I imagine really that you needed the Pathfinder.
SB: Yeah.
HK: To really make it worthwhile.
SB: Oh yeah.
HK: Because really to us it was like our own little trip you know. We, we did what we wanted to.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
HK: I mean we’d take off in sort of within two or three minutes of each other and yet we’d come back within hours and you could tell they’d been doing something apart from —
SB: Yeah. I think your eight and a half hour trip was the longest one you did. That’s about —
HK: Yes.
SB: The longest you could do wasn’t it really.
HK: Yes.
SB: Yes. There is a six hour forty. Oh, seven hours to Kiel.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Oh, and six hours fifty. Mannheim. So some longish ones.
HK: Yes.
SB: Right. Let’s have, let’s have a look at this. Can I just have a pace through.
HK: Sure. Yes. That was in —
SB: This is your family. Where did, where did you come from originally Harry?
HK: I was born in Hockley.
SB: Oh right.
HK: In Birmingham.
SB: Oh right.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right.
HK: And my father he was I didn’t realise until my younger, I’ve got two sons.
SB: Right.
HK: The younger one is in Brussels and he was fiddling about on the computer about six months ago and said, ‘Did you realise that your father, your grandfather, your paternal grandfather was born in [unclear]?’ I said, ‘No. I didn’t.’ That was my father in the First World War but he was born in Newtown, Birmingham.
SB: So what that one or that one?
HK: The second one.
SB: The second. Oh, ok. So —
HK: Yeah.
SB: Second row back, right hand end.
HK: Yes. He was doing the [pause] the fabric on the plane.
SB: Ah ok. So he was a rigger.
HK: Yes.
SB: Right.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Oh yeah. I’ve just seen that picture here. That’s fascinating.
HK: That’s before we were there.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
HK: Yes, it’s but you see really to me I started off at Blackpool. What can you want better than that?
SB: Well, that’s right.
HK: You know, everything. And people of course you went in the pubs and they’d treat you to a drink you see. Yatesbury wasn’t so good.
SB: Now, is this, is this ITW or is this —
HK: No, that’s IT, that’s Blackpool.
SB: That is Blackpool.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right. Yes. Ok.
HK: Yeah. What happened there that was at a farm in Devon. Ottery St Mary.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Then the son of the owner got killed. He was on 9 Squadron.
SB: Oh.
HK: Same time as me.
SB: Oh right.
HK: And he went missing.
SB: Oh, he was another air gunner was he?
HK: No. He was a pilot.
SB: He was a pilot. Right.
HK: Yeah. All these others are [pause] but —
SB: A smart looking chap. When did you actually come out of the Air Force then? When did you —
HK: ’46.
SB: ’46.
HK: I did six years.
SB: Right.
HK: I’d have liked to have stopped in but of course I was much too old. They didn’t want people of my age.
SB: Right.
HK: See I was thirty, I’d be about thirty three when I came out in ’46. Yeah.
SB: Well, you were the old man of the crew I suppose.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Weren’t you?
HK: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
HK: You see really I was too old to get anywhere you know. They didn’t want, you see I was twenty, I was in my twenty seventh year when I went for my aircrew selection.
SB: Right.
HK: And I think right away but if they might have done they wouldn’t have had me.
SB: I was too old you see.
HK: Right. What were you doing before the war then? What, what was your job?
SB: Well, I started off in an accountant’s office but he was a certified accountant because in those days you had to be articled for chartered or incorporated. And then I left there to keep an office, keep the books of an office and found that I could do it in half the time so I went out selling. It was selling belting and belt fastenings and that sort of stuff. But I’ve had, I’ve had a great life. I came out of the Air Force and my job had gone so I was, did the selling part and then I went to, I’ve always been a gambler.
SB: Right.
HK: And I went to Royal Ascot with a couple of Birmingham businessmen and I backed a horse on the terrace. I had a fiver on it at ninety to one and I thought heck I don’t know what I’m going to do with this money. They said, ‘I’ll tell you what if you leave your job we’ve got a business that is doing no good at all. We’ll give you a third share for that. So that’s what I did. I left my job and did that. Eventually bought them out. Then I sold out to Neville Industrial Securities and then I had a house in, we had a house in Florida.
SB: Oh right.
HK: I bought, I had originally the fellow that built this lot was a director of Birmingham City Football Club.
SB: Right.
HK: And I was a director of Aston Villa Football Club and he got me to buy a penthouse. Then when I retired I sold the penthouse.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Bought this flat and a house in Florida near Orlando.
SB: Oh right. Right. Very good.
HK: But as I say I’ve gambled all my life and I was playing the Stock Market. It must be oh a hell of a long time ago and I could buy shares in America and before I’d gone and paid for them they’d gone up and I could sell them and make money. But of course I got caught and lost all my money on the —
SB: Oh, did you? Oh dear.
HK: Yeah. But you know it’s, it hasn’t made much difference.
SB: Now, would you mind if I take photographs of your logbook? Is that ok?
HK: Do you want, you tell me what you want to do and —
SB: Well, I’ve got to have a shot of you as well, Harry. So —
HK: Oh God.
[pause – camera clicking]
SB: Another one to be sure.
HK: Ok.
SB: Lovely. Thank you. Can I go where there’s a bit of daylight?
HK: Anywhere. Yes. Ok.
Other: Do you want me to hold the album?
SB: Actually, I think it would be alright here.
HK: Yes. Really I’ve been ever so lucky. Well, I still am. See I can still drive.
Other: Yes.
HK: And still not too bad. Not perfect mind and I have bad days. Which of course as I say at my age you know you can.
SB: I think you’re allowed to aren’t you Harry?
HK: Yes.
SB: I think you’re allowed to occasionally aren’t you?
HK: Yeah. The main trouble is you see I went to hers. I say I’ve done my shopping, coffee, bed. I’m back here by half past nine then go all day. I see nobody. My two lads one lives in Worcester. The other one lives in Brussels. They phone me every day but I, oh perhaps the one in Brussels I see perhaps once or twice, three times a year.
Other: Yeah.
HK: The other one calls in perhaps every two or three weeks and we’ve been going to America every year. We go racing.
Other: Right.
HK: And we usually we go you see I have a house in Orlando so we go and visit friends there.
Other: Right.
HK: Then my youngest son’s got relatives on his wife’s side who were in Ocala in Florida. So we go there. Then we motor down to St Petersburg and go racing at Tampa Bay down to St Petersburg. Then we come back. Whether we shall go this year depends on how I if I can cope.
Other: Right.
HK: But you know its [pause] I’m still very lucky at my age to be able to. But my six years in the forces were the six best years of my life really. But, but the years go past. We were married seventy two years.
SB: Oh really.
Other: Really?
HK: I’ve got two photographs of the Queen that you know when I think of sixty five and one at seventy years. Oh dear [pause] It’s, do you, do you do any, have you got a job at all?
Other: I don’t. I’ve been bringing up my children so I’m looking for a job at the moment.
HK: Yeah. They’re not easy to get are they?
Other: No.
HK: See really I’ve lived during a good time because there was never any problem getting a job you see. I mean, I was never, I’ve never been out of work at all.
Other: No.
HK: But today I would hate it. I mean you could be really well qualified and you still can’t.
Other: No, you can’t.
HK: I mean see the people who I used to sell stuff to the companies have gone. British Leyland. Rover Motor Company.
SB: Yeah.
HK: Morris cars. [unclear] they weren’t, they’ve all gone. Of course, life alters all the time doesn’t it?
Other: It does.
HK: And you’ve just got to there’s no use complaining. You’ve got to accept it haven’t you?
Other: Yes.
SB: Not a lot you can do about it is there really?
HK: Nothing at all. I mean there’s no use moaning.
SB: No.
HK: Just got to. Fortunately, as I say I’m a gambler and I can go in the betting shop in the morning, put my bet on, come home and watch it on television you see. So something and then of course all sport like tomorrow I’ve got well today the Masters starts in Augusta and I’ve got five there to watch.
Other: Yes.
HK: And it’s something. You must have an interest you see.
Other: Yes.
HK: And I try and get out every day although some days it’s a bit of a problem you know. But —
Other: Did you put a bet on the Grand National?
HK: Yes. I didn’t back the winner but it’s I only bet small now.
SB: When you did your Civil Air Guard flying did you say you went solo?
HK: Yes.
SB: What sort of aeroplane were you flying?
HK: A Tiger Moth.
SB: Right. Right.
HK: Yeah. Well, anybody could fly one of those. I mean I used to land one side of the airport and the pilot was taking off again to get to the Clubhouse you know. But and then we moved from Castle Bromwich to Oldham.
SB: Yes.
HK: And I think they lost all my papers or something. I don’t know.
SB: Oh right.
HK: But as I say I was really too old. They wanted the eighteen year olds and that.
SB: Yes. Yes. That’s right.
HK: Yeah.
SB: Right. Well, that’s great.
HK: Anything else you want?
SB: Is there anything else you can think of that we haven’t really asked you about or —
HK: Not really. No.
SB: No. I mean, I’m very grateful to you. That’s really good.
HK: No. Nothing really.
SB: Ok. Would you mind signing a couple of things for me please?
HK: I will do. I’m not very, I’m not very —
Citation
S Bond and H Kartz, “Interview with Harry Kartz,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed June 13, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/49824.