Interview with Lionel Horner
Title
Interview with Lionel Horner
Description
Lionel begins by mentioning he was on Leeds University Air Squadron at beginning of war. Once he finished his degree, he was slated to train as a fighter pilot in the United Sates, but due to lack of space on courses, eventually was trained as a navigator on an America civil airline. He returned to UK for operational training and heavy conversion then carried out back to back tours on 50 Squadron. He recalls a few anecdotes about time on 50 Squadron including 17 operations to Berlin, including 5 on the trot. Lionel talks of 50 Squadron's good reputation. Interviewer tells story of friend on 158 Squadron Halifax shot down on 12th operation and finding out who had shot him down. Includes contemporary colour photograph of Lionel Horner.
Date
2011-09-14
Spatial Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:31:32 audio recording
Conforms To
Is Part Of
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
SBondS-HornerLv10004, SBondS-HornerLv10003
Transcription
SB: So basically I just really wanted to chat through your career. You told me when we met the other week that you did a double tour. Is that right? On 50 Squadron. So perhaps we could start with that. Could you —
LH: Well, I had a very interesting career because I was a member of the University Air Squadron when the war was on. At the beginning of the war.
SB: Oh right.
LH: And they let me finish my degree.
SB: That was Oxford was it?
LH: No, Leeds.
SB: Leeds.
LH: They let me finish my degree. I joined the University Air Squadron of course when I was there and they said, ‘Right. We’re sending you out to America to be trained.’
SB: Oh. The Arnold Scheme this was.
LH: Yeah. You know your stuff don’t you.
SB: Well, a great friend of mine was on the first Arnold Scheme course.
LH: Was he really? Well, I was on 42e.
SB: Ah right.
LH: Anyway, they sent me out there to be trained as a fighter pilot and I did the training with, on all the aircraft you know. Stearmans upwards.
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: And became a fighter pilot. Still in England. I hadn’t reached America yet. This was all by correspondence and they said, ‘We’re not going to have the ability to find you a place as a fighter pilot with the American Army Air Corps. We’ve got enough fighter pilots. Will you remuster as a bomber pilot?’
SB: Right.
LH: Well, by that time I was out there and I remustered as a bomber pilot and flew all that lot.
SB: Right. Right. Oh, ok.
LH: I finished the bomber pilots’ lot and they said, ‘I’m afraid we’ve enough pilots. Both fighters and bombers. Will you remuster?
SB: Really?
LH: I said, ‘What? Navigator? Well, I wanted to be a pilot you see. Anyway, I joined the what’s it called? The big commercial firm. What’s the name? Airways in America?
SB: Ah.
LH: Anyway, I became a commercial navigator, trained navigator even though I was in the RAF and then I became a navigator. South American Airways.
SB: Oh right.
LH: Do you know it?
SB: Yes. I do. Yes. Yes.
LH: I became a navigator with them. Then I was commissioned.
SB: Right.
LH: And then I came back to England and went through the usual processes away from America and you know at OTU, Heavy Conversion Unit.
SB: Yeah.
LH: Skellingthorpe.
SB: Right.
LH: 50 Squadron.
SB: Right.
LH: Two tours.
SB: Right. How long were you doing the commercial flying for?
LH: How long? Only to be trained.
SB: Right.
LH: It wasn’t a commercial job.
SB: Right.
LH: It was just to get me a navigator’s brevet.
SB: Oh, I see. Right. Ok. So, you came back to England. When would that have been?
LH: 1942.
SB: ’42. Ok.
LH: So I was in for the beginning of the big English operations and I did more to Berlin and that’s really why you’re here because I’m quite proud of this.
SB: Crikey.
LH: I did more to Berlin than anybody else in main force.
SB: Really. Really. I think you said seventeen.
LH: Seventeen to Berlin.
SB: Wow. That’s quite something.
LH: That’s on my first tour.
SB: That was all in your first tour.
LH: Aye. So I was lucky wasn’t I?
SB: So when did you get onto the squadron then? What —
LH: When?
SB: When. Yes.
LH: Well, I’ve got all the facts here.
SB: Oh. Ok. Ok.
LH: Do you want a precise date? About January ’42.
SB: Right. So just taking a step back before we talk —
LH: Yeah.
SB: About the squadron in more detail. Where did you do your OTU and HCU?
LH: OTU at Market Harborough.
SB: Right.
LH: And the Heavy Conversion Unit somewhere near Gainsborough I think.
SB: Oh, right. Ok. Ok. So, now we’re on —
LH: 1661.
SB: 1661. Ok.
LH: Do you know? Does that ring a bell?
SB: It does. It rings a bell certainly yes. I can’t think just at the moment where that was but not to worry. So does, on the squadron now then —
LH: I’m on the squadron.
SB: Right. And this is ’42.
LH: Yeah.
SB: Right. So you go through your first tour with seventeen Berlins.
LH: Yeah.
SB: That must have been —
LH: I’ve got it all written down.
SB: Right.
LH: Do you want to see it?
SB: Right. Well, if I have a look at that in just a sec.
LH: Yeah.
SB: Chat about it first. So there must have been many memorable ops amongst those I imagine.
LH: Yes.
SB: Any particularly difficult moments shall we say that you recall?
LH: Not difficult moments. Oh, that’s somebody calling. Not difficult moments but my, a couple of pilots were involved breaking the rules. Nothing to do. One flew low over Sheffield.
SB: Right.
LH: To salute his girlfriend and lost everything.
SB: Oh really?
LH: Yes. They punished him. Took him off flying.
SB: Good lord.
LH: That was a bit savage.
SB: Wasn’t it just. Yes. So you came to the end of your first tour.
LH: Tour. That’s right.
SB: Did you, did you start the second one straight away? Or did you —
LH: Well, the second one straight away with 50 Squadron again.
SB: Right.
[[ tea talk]]
LH: What was your first name?
SB: Steve.
LH: Steve. Did you get involved in this as a private interest or —
SB: Oh yes. I mean I did tell the story. I’ve always been interested in wartime aircrew and when I joined the Air Force in ’73 there were still quite a few chaps serving at that time who’d served during the war so I got chatting to them and so on and eventually I, it went from there to doing what I’m doing now. Chatting to chaps and recording their careers and so on. And oh, I’ve been doing that about twenty five years.
LH: But there a financial interest involved?
SB: No. No. No. No. No.
LH: No.
SB: I mean it resulted in [pause] it resulted in that book last year.
LH: Really?
SB: Oh yes. But no there’s no [pause] I’m not in it for financial interest. I’m in it purely because I’m passionate and enthusiastic about the story. So —
LH: You used the word passionate first and then you changed to interest.
SB: Passionately interested.
LH: Are you passionately interested.
SB: Yes, absolutely. So, over the years I must have chatted to I don’t know about a hundred and fifty chaps from —
LH: Really?
SB: All over the place. Yes.
LH: And aircraft all over the place.
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: Fighters, bombers.
SB: Yes.
LH: Reconnaissance.
SB: Yes, absolutely.
LH: Flying boats.
SB: Yes.
LH: Really?
SB: Yes. In fact, if you look at all the major aircraft types the only, there are very few I have not found chaps. One, perhaps not surprisingly is the Battle. Obviously a very short and awful baptism of fire. And the other one I’ve never found is a Whitley man.
LH: I can understand both of them.
SB: Right.
LH: Battles were very popular at the time. They were the first brought out. It was a wartime aircraft wasn’t it?
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: And so was Whitley but they were both very popular but they were lower down the merit rank.
SB: Yes [laughs] yes, that’s right. So, so that’s why I do this and as I say that was the first result last year. There is another book coming out this year which is about, it’s called, “Bomber Command Failed To Return.” That’s a collection of stories of chaps who were shot down and went on the run or were shot down and taken prisoner.
LH: And you called it, “Bomber Command Failed to Return.
SB: Failed to Return.
LH: As a sort of blur on the idea.
SB: Yeah. And there’s another volume of that next year. So you know it’s essential that chaps like yourself, their story is told. It gets —
LH: Do you run it as a continuous title or do you punctuate it?
SB: It’s punctuated.
LH: Bomber Command.
SB: Yes.
LH: Inverted commas.
SB: Yes.
LH: Failed to Return.
SB: Yes.
LH: Very good. Very good.
SB: So that’s why I do it. So, now we’ve just to get back to you you went straight on to your second tour.
LH: Yeah.
SB: So there was no gap in between.
LH: No gap in between.
SB: Right.
LH: I had some shooting ups obviously. One or two very near things but I survived it all and I was very lucky indeed to have wonderful crews. The usual story. Look at this. I can recommend these. Try these lighter ones.
SB: Oh, I will. Thank you. Yes.
LH: They are gorgeous.
SB: Oh right.
LH: You, you really will enjoy those.
SB: I’m sure. I’m sure I shall. So when we started your second tour did the whole crew start the same tour?
LH: Started with me. Moved with me. Very good. What’s the [daughter] written?
SB: Air Safety Management.
LH: Air Safety Management.
SB: Well, I now lecture at City University in London.
LH: Do you?
SB: On air safety management.
LH: What’s that new abbreviation about aircraft? They put it as aircrew. Part of aircrew. Its ENLA or something. It’s a —
SB: Oh, I don’t know that one. No. I don’t know that.
LH: Well both, both the chairman and another member of our committee have it on their CVs.
SB: Oh.
LH: To do with aircraft maintenance. It’s new to me.
SB: Well, I don’t know what that is. I don’t recognise it. Anyway, not to —
LH: Is this it?
[pause]
Just give me a second to look it up because I’ve never known what it meant so it’s intriguing to me.
SB: Oh ok.
LH: If you can tell me what it does.
SB: Well, I’ll do my best.
LH: You like the biscuits?
SB: Yes, I see what you mean. Very nice.
LH: They are aren’t they? [pause] Does the [coughs] does the name Alan Watkins ring a bell?
SB: No. I can’t say it does.
LH: Does the name Roger Hannaford?
SB: Oh, Roger Hannaford. Yes. Sure.
LH: Well, he has that qualification whatever it means.
SB: Oh.
LH: And he used to fly the big ones.
SB: That’s right. Yes, he did.
LH: You saw that, did you? Just read it through.
[pause]
LH: Take your time.
[pause]
SB: Oh, that’s appalling isn’t it?
LH: Absolutely.
SB: Yes.
LH: Did you know about it?
SB: I didn’t know about that. No. No. That’s dreadful. So anyway, let’s get back to you.
LH: Yeah.
SB: So you finished your second tour when?
LH: The second tour [pause]
SB: Let me relieve you of that and ask you to sign that for me later.
[pause]
LH: I had to finish my second tour. Do you want to see that?
SB: Ah Yes. Thank You. Right.
LH: Read through it together.
SB: Yes.
LH: Anything you need.
SB: So, University of Leeds. Right. University Air Squadron. What were you flying at Leeds University Air Squadron?
LH: The old standard.
SB: What? Tiger Moths?
LH: Tiger Moths. Yes
SB: Right. Ok. So on. Right. Oh, Pan American Airways. Right.
LH: Yeah.
SB: Right.
LH: Pan American Air. You’d think that it would be S T E A R wouldn’t you?
SB: It is.
LH: It is is it? I thought there was a mistake.
SB: Yeah. Right. Then market Harborough for Wellingtons. 1661. Right. Oh, that’s not the dreaded Nuremberg raid is it?
LH: Yes.
SB: I thought I recognised the date.
LH: Yeah.
SB: What do you recall about that? I mean that. Gosh your first op.
LH: Exciting first op.
SB: Yes. Can you —
LH: 10th of August 1943.
SB: Yes. That is the one isn’t it?
LH: Could you just check that if you have any dates there to see I was on it.
SB: Oh no. The really bad one was March ’44.
LH: March ’44. That wasn’t mine.
SB: Right. Ok.
LH: Ok. Well, my Berlins started well up and then as I said I did seventeen of them.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
LH: And eventually I finished my first tour. That was how the question began. Was it? The first tour completed the 25th of February.
SB: Yeah.
LH: Awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross invested by George the Sixth.
SB: Yeah.
LH: And then only a few on the second tour and then finished.
SB: Right. Alright?
LH: Yeah.
SB: So you had, oh gosh five Berlins on the trot. Goodness me. Four there. I mean what must you have thought when you saw Berlin on the target map again? You must have thought oh not again. Surely.
LH: I did think like that a bit but we, we were well laden. Harris was a fine fellow and his influence got around to the squadrons and don’t forget we had a distinguished record in 50 Squadron. Did you know that? Did you know we got the first of the great decorations on 50 Squadron?
SB: The first VC.
LH: The first VC.
SB: Yeah.
LH: You knew that.
SB: Yes, I do. Yes.
LH: And we were a well reputed squadron.
SB: Yes.
LH: But don’t forget with only a civilian background not a professional background like yours it was all new and vitally interesting. I mean the girls used to flock around me you know. That was very interesting.
SB: I can believe it [laughs] a bit of a charmer. So any other incidents that stick in your mind during your ops? I mean did you get any significant damage at any time or —
LH: Yes. I got structural damage but nothing memorable in that sense.
SB: Right.
LH: Let’s have another biscuit shall we? Would you like to try another?
SB: Oh I just. I could be tempted I think.
LH: Go on then.
SB: Alright. Thank you. Do you have your logbook?
LH: Yes.
SB: Perhaps I could, would it be ok for me to have a look through that?
LH: Yeah. Now or later?
SB: Well, you must have your biscuit first of course.
LH: Of course [pause] From your point of view, from your point of view can you recall a memorable experience as far as the human beings you’ve come across? Or could you recall too many?
SB: Well, gosh there are many. I think the thing that struck me most of all with all the chats I’ve had is coincidences. There’s a friend of mine in Milton Keynes who was a wireless operator on 158 Squadron, Halifaxes and they were shot down on their twelfth op in January ’45 going into Hanover by a night fighter. They all got out ok and Jack who is the chap I’m talking about went on the run for seven days until he was rounded up and then spent the rest of the time, the rest of the war in a POW camp. And seven or eight years ago now we were talking about it and I said to him, ‘Did you, do you know who shot you down, Jack?’ And he said, ‘No. No idea.’ So I thought I wonder if I can find out. So to cut a long story short I did find out who shot him down.
LH: Really?
SB: Yes. Who was one of the top scoring night fighter pilots and is still alive and I got them in touch with each other and took Jack out to Germany to meet him and they had three or four days together and got on like a house on fire. Absolutely. That was, that was pretty memorable.
LH: I’ll say.
SB: I think the other one that —
LH: I think that’s extremely memorable.
SB: It was and they’re still in correspondence with each other now.
LH: Oh really.
SB: Yes. Which was marvellous. The other one that sticks in my mind is when I was finishing off research for that one nation that I hadn’t got any interviews with was Italy. Now, through a student in my university I got put in touch with an Italian general who lives quite close to Venice and I went out to see him about four years ago. Still with us. He’s ninety eight now. Probably ninety nine now actually and he was a fighter pilot and he was telling me lots of stories of escorting torpedo bombers, attacking the Malta convoys and so on and he described an incident to me where he was, his wing man was shot down by Allied fighters. He was damaged but managed to stagger back to Sicily with a damaged engine and he said they were most unusual. I said, ‘What was it that struck you down?’ He said, ‘Oh, they weren’t Spitfires or Hurricanes. Something very unusual. I’m not quite sure what they were. Radial engine aeroplanes.’ I thought strange. Anyway, about six months later I was interviewing a Fleet Air Arm pilot who’d come over for a squadron reunion. Lives in North America now and he’d flown Grumman Martlets in the western desert. Flying off desert strips not flying off carriers and he started to describe to me a combat he had had with two Italian fighters. One was shot down and the other one was damaged and flew away and as conversation went on it was obvious there were many pointers to indicate that this was the same thing. This was the same combat because that was the only victory that the Martlet scored. The only air to air victory they scored over the Mediterranean. So he, he said to me, ‘I’ve often wondered if that other Italian made it back to Sicily.’ And I said, ‘Well, yes he did. I spoke to him six months ago about it.’
LH: It was actually a very memorable easy to remember name the Grumman Martlet, wasn’t it?
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: The name comes of the tongue actually.
SB: What else? There’s a chap in our ACA branch who did a full tour on Hampdens. In fact, he did thirty three including the first two thousand bomber ops. Not too many of those chaps around now. So there are many. Many memorable conversations I’ve had.
LH: And it’s are still fascinating to you.
SB: Absolutely.
LH: And I suppose you’ve heard everybody who ever flew a Lancaster enthused beyond all limitations about them.
SB: And the same for the Halifax chaps of course.
LH: Yeah. But I, we never [laughs] we never had any time for them.
SB: [laughs] so you were very enthusiastic about the Lanc were you?
LH: Yeah. Very.
[pause]
LH: And they really were reliable too. I mean you could put them on the bombing, turn a circuit and it would hold that height all the time no trouble.
SB: Right. Right.
LH: May I just have a look at that?
SB: Of course. Please do. Yes. Help yourself.
[pause]
LH: An unusual definition for an Oxford definition. Hero.
SB: It is. But I thought it was the most apt.
LH: Quite. Quite.
[pause]
LH: That’s true isn’t it? It’s become commonplace to refer to high achievers as heroes.
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: I wouldn’t go along so far, I wouldn’t along with that so far as that. High achievers can be imbued, caused by, you know sheer [pause] sheer application to the job in hand.
SB: Oh sure, they can but the media so overuses the term.
LH: Oh, I see. That’s what you’re aiming to bring out.
SB: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Footballing heroes and this sort of stuff you know.
LH: Yes, I see what you’re aiming at.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
LH: Whereas you would be inclined to restrict your heroism to bravery would you?
SB: Yes. Absolutely.
[pause]
LH: And from your own experience that our squadrons at Skellingthorpe had a good reputation or have you not come across it?
SB: Well, no. I think it’s true to say they have. There are some squadrons that recur. Have a recurring theme of certain squadrons.
LH: Well, you’ve got the spread of experience haven’t you?
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: Everything from coastal.
SB: Well yes. Absolutely. Yes. So yes, I do get that feeling actually. That is a number which is held in high esteem. 44 is another one that crops up a lot.
LH: Yeah. 44. That was Waddington.
SB: Waddington. Yes.
LH: And 61 was quite famous.
SB: It was. Yes. Indeed. That’s right. Yes, 83 is another one that gets talked about a lot.
LH: Yeah and there were some good heroes on 61 if I remember. I think Reid was on 61 wasn’t he?
SB: I’m not sure. He may well have been.
[pause]
LH: Very good.
SB: I think you’ve let your coffee go cold, Lionel.
LH: No doubt. We don’t have interesting conversations like this every day.
SB: Well, I guess not. No. Likewise. But there’s not much of Skellingthorpe left now is there? I think it’s been pretty much built on from what I understand.
LH: I haven’t been up there.
SB: Right. Could I have a look at your logbook please?
LH: Yeah. Will you let me find it first?
SB: Oh of course. Of course.
LH: Would you like another biscuit?
SB: No, thank you. That’s, that’s —
LH: Are you sure?
SB: I’m quite sure. That’s lovely. Thank you.
[pause]
SB: Ah, thank you.
[pause]
SB: Now, let’s see —
LH: Well, I had a very interesting career because I was a member of the University Air Squadron when the war was on. At the beginning of the war.
SB: Oh right.
LH: And they let me finish my degree.
SB: That was Oxford was it?
LH: No, Leeds.
SB: Leeds.
LH: They let me finish my degree. I joined the University Air Squadron of course when I was there and they said, ‘Right. We’re sending you out to America to be trained.’
SB: Oh. The Arnold Scheme this was.
LH: Yeah. You know your stuff don’t you.
SB: Well, a great friend of mine was on the first Arnold Scheme course.
LH: Was he really? Well, I was on 42e.
SB: Ah right.
LH: Anyway, they sent me out there to be trained as a fighter pilot and I did the training with, on all the aircraft you know. Stearmans upwards.
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: And became a fighter pilot. Still in England. I hadn’t reached America yet. This was all by correspondence and they said, ‘We’re not going to have the ability to find you a place as a fighter pilot with the American Army Air Corps. We’ve got enough fighter pilots. Will you remuster as a bomber pilot?’
SB: Right.
LH: Well, by that time I was out there and I remustered as a bomber pilot and flew all that lot.
SB: Right. Right. Oh, ok.
LH: I finished the bomber pilots’ lot and they said, ‘I’m afraid we’ve enough pilots. Both fighters and bombers. Will you remuster?
SB: Really?
LH: I said, ‘What? Navigator? Well, I wanted to be a pilot you see. Anyway, I joined the what’s it called? The big commercial firm. What’s the name? Airways in America?
SB: Ah.
LH: Anyway, I became a commercial navigator, trained navigator even though I was in the RAF and then I became a navigator. South American Airways.
SB: Oh right.
LH: Do you know it?
SB: Yes. I do. Yes. Yes.
LH: I became a navigator with them. Then I was commissioned.
SB: Right.
LH: And then I came back to England and went through the usual processes away from America and you know at OTU, Heavy Conversion Unit.
SB: Yeah.
LH: Skellingthorpe.
SB: Right.
LH: 50 Squadron.
SB: Right.
LH: Two tours.
SB: Right. How long were you doing the commercial flying for?
LH: How long? Only to be trained.
SB: Right.
LH: It wasn’t a commercial job.
SB: Right.
LH: It was just to get me a navigator’s brevet.
SB: Oh, I see. Right. Ok. So, you came back to England. When would that have been?
LH: 1942.
SB: ’42. Ok.
LH: So I was in for the beginning of the big English operations and I did more to Berlin and that’s really why you’re here because I’m quite proud of this.
SB: Crikey.
LH: I did more to Berlin than anybody else in main force.
SB: Really. Really. I think you said seventeen.
LH: Seventeen to Berlin.
SB: Wow. That’s quite something.
LH: That’s on my first tour.
SB: That was all in your first tour.
LH: Aye. So I was lucky wasn’t I?
SB: So when did you get onto the squadron then? What —
LH: When?
SB: When. Yes.
LH: Well, I’ve got all the facts here.
SB: Oh. Ok. Ok.
LH: Do you want a precise date? About January ’42.
SB: Right. So just taking a step back before we talk —
LH: Yeah.
SB: About the squadron in more detail. Where did you do your OTU and HCU?
LH: OTU at Market Harborough.
SB: Right.
LH: And the Heavy Conversion Unit somewhere near Gainsborough I think.
SB: Oh, right. Ok. Ok. So, now we’re on —
LH: 1661.
SB: 1661. Ok.
LH: Do you know? Does that ring a bell?
SB: It does. It rings a bell certainly yes. I can’t think just at the moment where that was but not to worry. So does, on the squadron now then —
LH: I’m on the squadron.
SB: Right. And this is ’42.
LH: Yeah.
SB: Right. So you go through your first tour with seventeen Berlins.
LH: Yeah.
SB: That must have been —
LH: I’ve got it all written down.
SB: Right.
LH: Do you want to see it?
SB: Right. Well, if I have a look at that in just a sec.
LH: Yeah.
SB: Chat about it first. So there must have been many memorable ops amongst those I imagine.
LH: Yes.
SB: Any particularly difficult moments shall we say that you recall?
LH: Not difficult moments. Oh, that’s somebody calling. Not difficult moments but my, a couple of pilots were involved breaking the rules. Nothing to do. One flew low over Sheffield.
SB: Right.
LH: To salute his girlfriend and lost everything.
SB: Oh really?
LH: Yes. They punished him. Took him off flying.
SB: Good lord.
LH: That was a bit savage.
SB: Wasn’t it just. Yes. So you came to the end of your first tour.
LH: Tour. That’s right.
SB: Did you, did you start the second one straight away? Or did you —
LH: Well, the second one straight away with 50 Squadron again.
SB: Right.
[[ tea talk]]
LH: What was your first name?
SB: Steve.
LH: Steve. Did you get involved in this as a private interest or —
SB: Oh yes. I mean I did tell the story. I’ve always been interested in wartime aircrew and when I joined the Air Force in ’73 there were still quite a few chaps serving at that time who’d served during the war so I got chatting to them and so on and eventually I, it went from there to doing what I’m doing now. Chatting to chaps and recording their careers and so on. And oh, I’ve been doing that about twenty five years.
LH: But there a financial interest involved?
SB: No. No. No. No. No.
LH: No.
SB: I mean it resulted in [pause] it resulted in that book last year.
LH: Really?
SB: Oh yes. But no there’s no [pause] I’m not in it for financial interest. I’m in it purely because I’m passionate and enthusiastic about the story. So —
LH: You used the word passionate first and then you changed to interest.
SB: Passionately interested.
LH: Are you passionately interested.
SB: Yes, absolutely. So, over the years I must have chatted to I don’t know about a hundred and fifty chaps from —
LH: Really?
SB: All over the place. Yes.
LH: And aircraft all over the place.
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: Fighters, bombers.
SB: Yes.
LH: Reconnaissance.
SB: Yes, absolutely.
LH: Flying boats.
SB: Yes.
LH: Really?
SB: Yes. In fact, if you look at all the major aircraft types the only, there are very few I have not found chaps. One, perhaps not surprisingly is the Battle. Obviously a very short and awful baptism of fire. And the other one I’ve never found is a Whitley man.
LH: I can understand both of them.
SB: Right.
LH: Battles were very popular at the time. They were the first brought out. It was a wartime aircraft wasn’t it?
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: And so was Whitley but they were both very popular but they were lower down the merit rank.
SB: Yes [laughs] yes, that’s right. So, so that’s why I do this and as I say that was the first result last year. There is another book coming out this year which is about, it’s called, “Bomber Command Failed To Return.” That’s a collection of stories of chaps who were shot down and went on the run or were shot down and taken prisoner.
LH: And you called it, “Bomber Command Failed to Return.
SB: Failed to Return.
LH: As a sort of blur on the idea.
SB: Yeah. And there’s another volume of that next year. So you know it’s essential that chaps like yourself, their story is told. It gets —
LH: Do you run it as a continuous title or do you punctuate it?
SB: It’s punctuated.
LH: Bomber Command.
SB: Yes.
LH: Inverted commas.
SB: Yes.
LH: Failed to Return.
SB: Yes.
LH: Very good. Very good.
SB: So that’s why I do it. So, now we’ve just to get back to you you went straight on to your second tour.
LH: Yeah.
SB: So there was no gap in between.
LH: No gap in between.
SB: Right.
LH: I had some shooting ups obviously. One or two very near things but I survived it all and I was very lucky indeed to have wonderful crews. The usual story. Look at this. I can recommend these. Try these lighter ones.
SB: Oh, I will. Thank you. Yes.
LH: They are gorgeous.
SB: Oh right.
LH: You, you really will enjoy those.
SB: I’m sure. I’m sure I shall. So when we started your second tour did the whole crew start the same tour?
LH: Started with me. Moved with me. Very good. What’s the [daughter] written?
SB: Air Safety Management.
LH: Air Safety Management.
SB: Well, I now lecture at City University in London.
LH: Do you?
SB: On air safety management.
LH: What’s that new abbreviation about aircraft? They put it as aircrew. Part of aircrew. Its ENLA or something. It’s a —
SB: Oh, I don’t know that one. No. I don’t know that.
LH: Well both, both the chairman and another member of our committee have it on their CVs.
SB: Oh.
LH: To do with aircraft maintenance. It’s new to me.
SB: Well, I don’t know what that is. I don’t recognise it. Anyway, not to —
LH: Is this it?
[pause]
Just give me a second to look it up because I’ve never known what it meant so it’s intriguing to me.
SB: Oh ok.
LH: If you can tell me what it does.
SB: Well, I’ll do my best.
LH: You like the biscuits?
SB: Yes, I see what you mean. Very nice.
LH: They are aren’t they? [pause] Does the [coughs] does the name Alan Watkins ring a bell?
SB: No. I can’t say it does.
LH: Does the name Roger Hannaford?
SB: Oh, Roger Hannaford. Yes. Sure.
LH: Well, he has that qualification whatever it means.
SB: Oh.
LH: And he used to fly the big ones.
SB: That’s right. Yes, he did.
LH: You saw that, did you? Just read it through.
[pause]
LH: Take your time.
[pause]
SB: Oh, that’s appalling isn’t it?
LH: Absolutely.
SB: Yes.
LH: Did you know about it?
SB: I didn’t know about that. No. No. That’s dreadful. So anyway, let’s get back to you.
LH: Yeah.
SB: So you finished your second tour when?
LH: The second tour [pause]
SB: Let me relieve you of that and ask you to sign that for me later.
[pause]
LH: I had to finish my second tour. Do you want to see that?
SB: Ah Yes. Thank You. Right.
LH: Read through it together.
SB: Yes.
LH: Anything you need.
SB: So, University of Leeds. Right. University Air Squadron. What were you flying at Leeds University Air Squadron?
LH: The old standard.
SB: What? Tiger Moths?
LH: Tiger Moths. Yes
SB: Right. Ok. So on. Right. Oh, Pan American Airways. Right.
LH: Yeah.
SB: Right.
LH: Pan American Air. You’d think that it would be S T E A R wouldn’t you?
SB: It is.
LH: It is is it? I thought there was a mistake.
SB: Yeah. Right. Then market Harborough for Wellingtons. 1661. Right. Oh, that’s not the dreaded Nuremberg raid is it?
LH: Yes.
SB: I thought I recognised the date.
LH: Yeah.
SB: What do you recall about that? I mean that. Gosh your first op.
LH: Exciting first op.
SB: Yes. Can you —
LH: 10th of August 1943.
SB: Yes. That is the one isn’t it?
LH: Could you just check that if you have any dates there to see I was on it.
SB: Oh no. The really bad one was March ’44.
LH: March ’44. That wasn’t mine.
SB: Right. Ok.
LH: Ok. Well, my Berlins started well up and then as I said I did seventeen of them.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
LH: And eventually I finished my first tour. That was how the question began. Was it? The first tour completed the 25th of February.
SB: Yeah.
LH: Awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross invested by George the Sixth.
SB: Yeah.
LH: And then only a few on the second tour and then finished.
SB: Right. Alright?
LH: Yeah.
SB: So you had, oh gosh five Berlins on the trot. Goodness me. Four there. I mean what must you have thought when you saw Berlin on the target map again? You must have thought oh not again. Surely.
LH: I did think like that a bit but we, we were well laden. Harris was a fine fellow and his influence got around to the squadrons and don’t forget we had a distinguished record in 50 Squadron. Did you know that? Did you know we got the first of the great decorations on 50 Squadron?
SB: The first VC.
LH: The first VC.
SB: Yeah.
LH: You knew that.
SB: Yes, I do. Yes.
LH: And we were a well reputed squadron.
SB: Yes.
LH: But don’t forget with only a civilian background not a professional background like yours it was all new and vitally interesting. I mean the girls used to flock around me you know. That was very interesting.
SB: I can believe it [laughs] a bit of a charmer. So any other incidents that stick in your mind during your ops? I mean did you get any significant damage at any time or —
LH: Yes. I got structural damage but nothing memorable in that sense.
SB: Right.
LH: Let’s have another biscuit shall we? Would you like to try another?
SB: Oh I just. I could be tempted I think.
LH: Go on then.
SB: Alright. Thank you. Do you have your logbook?
LH: Yes.
SB: Perhaps I could, would it be ok for me to have a look through that?
LH: Yeah. Now or later?
SB: Well, you must have your biscuit first of course.
LH: Of course [pause] From your point of view, from your point of view can you recall a memorable experience as far as the human beings you’ve come across? Or could you recall too many?
SB: Well, gosh there are many. I think the thing that struck me most of all with all the chats I’ve had is coincidences. There’s a friend of mine in Milton Keynes who was a wireless operator on 158 Squadron, Halifaxes and they were shot down on their twelfth op in January ’45 going into Hanover by a night fighter. They all got out ok and Jack who is the chap I’m talking about went on the run for seven days until he was rounded up and then spent the rest of the time, the rest of the war in a POW camp. And seven or eight years ago now we were talking about it and I said to him, ‘Did you, do you know who shot you down, Jack?’ And he said, ‘No. No idea.’ So I thought I wonder if I can find out. So to cut a long story short I did find out who shot him down.
LH: Really?
SB: Yes. Who was one of the top scoring night fighter pilots and is still alive and I got them in touch with each other and took Jack out to Germany to meet him and they had three or four days together and got on like a house on fire. Absolutely. That was, that was pretty memorable.
LH: I’ll say.
SB: I think the other one that —
LH: I think that’s extremely memorable.
SB: It was and they’re still in correspondence with each other now.
LH: Oh really.
SB: Yes. Which was marvellous. The other one that sticks in my mind is when I was finishing off research for that one nation that I hadn’t got any interviews with was Italy. Now, through a student in my university I got put in touch with an Italian general who lives quite close to Venice and I went out to see him about four years ago. Still with us. He’s ninety eight now. Probably ninety nine now actually and he was a fighter pilot and he was telling me lots of stories of escorting torpedo bombers, attacking the Malta convoys and so on and he described an incident to me where he was, his wing man was shot down by Allied fighters. He was damaged but managed to stagger back to Sicily with a damaged engine and he said they were most unusual. I said, ‘What was it that struck you down?’ He said, ‘Oh, they weren’t Spitfires or Hurricanes. Something very unusual. I’m not quite sure what they were. Radial engine aeroplanes.’ I thought strange. Anyway, about six months later I was interviewing a Fleet Air Arm pilot who’d come over for a squadron reunion. Lives in North America now and he’d flown Grumman Martlets in the western desert. Flying off desert strips not flying off carriers and he started to describe to me a combat he had had with two Italian fighters. One was shot down and the other one was damaged and flew away and as conversation went on it was obvious there were many pointers to indicate that this was the same thing. This was the same combat because that was the only victory that the Martlet scored. The only air to air victory they scored over the Mediterranean. So he, he said to me, ‘I’ve often wondered if that other Italian made it back to Sicily.’ And I said, ‘Well, yes he did. I spoke to him six months ago about it.’
LH: It was actually a very memorable easy to remember name the Grumman Martlet, wasn’t it?
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: The name comes of the tongue actually.
SB: What else? There’s a chap in our ACA branch who did a full tour on Hampdens. In fact, he did thirty three including the first two thousand bomber ops. Not too many of those chaps around now. So there are many. Many memorable conversations I’ve had.
LH: And it’s are still fascinating to you.
SB: Absolutely.
LH: And I suppose you’ve heard everybody who ever flew a Lancaster enthused beyond all limitations about them.
SB: And the same for the Halifax chaps of course.
LH: Yeah. But I, we never [laughs] we never had any time for them.
SB: [laughs] so you were very enthusiastic about the Lanc were you?
LH: Yeah. Very.
[pause]
LH: And they really were reliable too. I mean you could put them on the bombing, turn a circuit and it would hold that height all the time no trouble.
SB: Right. Right.
LH: May I just have a look at that?
SB: Of course. Please do. Yes. Help yourself.
[pause]
LH: An unusual definition for an Oxford definition. Hero.
SB: It is. But I thought it was the most apt.
LH: Quite. Quite.
[pause]
LH: That’s true isn’t it? It’s become commonplace to refer to high achievers as heroes.
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: I wouldn’t go along so far, I wouldn’t along with that so far as that. High achievers can be imbued, caused by, you know sheer [pause] sheer application to the job in hand.
SB: Oh sure, they can but the media so overuses the term.
LH: Oh, I see. That’s what you’re aiming to bring out.
SB: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Footballing heroes and this sort of stuff you know.
LH: Yes, I see what you’re aiming at.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
LH: Whereas you would be inclined to restrict your heroism to bravery would you?
SB: Yes. Absolutely.
[pause]
LH: And from your own experience that our squadrons at Skellingthorpe had a good reputation or have you not come across it?
SB: Well, no. I think it’s true to say they have. There are some squadrons that recur. Have a recurring theme of certain squadrons.
LH: Well, you’ve got the spread of experience haven’t you?
SB: Yes. Yes.
LH: Everything from coastal.
SB: Well yes. Absolutely. Yes. So yes, I do get that feeling actually. That is a number which is held in high esteem. 44 is another one that crops up a lot.
LH: Yeah. 44. That was Waddington.
SB: Waddington. Yes.
LH: And 61 was quite famous.
SB: It was. Yes. Indeed. That’s right. Yes, 83 is another one that gets talked about a lot.
LH: Yeah and there were some good heroes on 61 if I remember. I think Reid was on 61 wasn’t he?
SB: I’m not sure. He may well have been.
[pause]
LH: Very good.
SB: I think you’ve let your coffee go cold, Lionel.
LH: No doubt. We don’t have interesting conversations like this every day.
SB: Well, I guess not. No. Likewise. But there’s not much of Skellingthorpe left now is there? I think it’s been pretty much built on from what I understand.
LH: I haven’t been up there.
SB: Right. Could I have a look at your logbook please?
LH: Yeah. Will you let me find it first?
SB: Oh of course. Of course.
LH: Would you like another biscuit?
SB: No, thank you. That’s, that’s —
LH: Are you sure?
SB: I’m quite sure. That’s lovely. Thank you.
[pause]
SB: Ah, thank you.
[pause]
SB: Now, let’s see —
Collection
Citation
S Bond and L Horner, “Interview with Lionel Horner,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed June 13, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/49817.