Interview with John Elliot

Interview with John Elliot

John describes an operation where all crew of his aircraft had to bale out, after all airfields in England were fog bound they were running out of fuel. He goes on to describe an incident on an operation when he looked up out of astrodome to see a Halifax directly above them, dropping bombs which narrowly missed them. He describes wireless ops duty with "Monica" equipment. John goes on to relate fighter affiliation sorties with a Ju 88 which had landed by mistake in England,where they discovered the German aircraft could home in on "Monica" transmissions. Monica discontinued for "Fish Pond". He discusses at length operations between July and September, comparing log books to squadron operation record documents. He recalls where aircraft name "Wee Dood It" came from and which aircraft was actually painted with 30 operation symbols. John talks about his feelings about losses and describes some of their activities, daily life, on and off operations. He recalls that two of his crew were commissioned and the others in Sergeants mess. He describes his feelings on completion of tour and the dispersal of crew afterwards, and describes his attempt to re-contact many years after the war. John describes, initially, having to train as ground radio operator due to an eyesight issue and, subsequently,being re-mustered as aircrew wireless, and then describes the period from training up to operations. He concludes with description of visit to the Battle of Britain memorial flight at RAF Coningsby to get in the Lancaster again.
Includes document with transcript of the conversation between John Elliot and Steve Bond in 2011 and also has contemporary colour photograph of John Elliot. The section describing his non-RAF service as a steward with BOAC, up to Christmas Day 1951 and material relating to training cabin crews etc. for civilian airlines were not included in the provided transcript. Includes contemporary colour photograph.

2011-09-07

13 page printed document

01:23:59 audio recording

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SBondS-ElliottJv10020, SBondS-ElliottJv10035

JE: Yes. I think a lot of things as I’ve said before are fresh in my memory, very fresh and some things are blurred, you know. You can’t remember a lot of names of people particularly on the courses I was on, you know. That’s the thing. I mean we did so many courses. I mean as you know the wireless ops training was one of the longest of the lot of the aircrew and consequently you did a lot of courses and met a lot of people. But I can’t remember many of the names of any of the people who were on it you know.
SB: No.
JE: So that’s one thing about it. But as far as the squadron operations are concerned again some are clear but it’s a question of the memory.
SB: Yes. Well, let’s, let’s start with the 12th of July ’44, Revigny when you bailed out.
JE: Right. Yes.
SB: So can you just talk me through that op as far as you remember it? I mean when did you first realise that there was going to be a problem getting back?
JE: Well, only that it started off as any normal op starts of course. The briefing was fairly straightforward. It was going to be a fairly longish one into the east border of France really. It was a railway marshalling yard I think. it was an area where all the German troops were congregated and it was essential to make an effort to break that up if we could. And so it didn’t seem to be a particularly difficult one except that we had to get out. We met some flak across the way. A light flak across the way and it became obvious that we were running into cloud and it was going to be, might be a little bit difficult to find the target.
SB: Right.
JE: And in fact, what happened was we spotted a gap in the cloud as we came up to the target area. The bomb aimer, Guss he spotted a gap in the cloud, made for it, selected his aiming point and we actually bombed through that point at the time. And just after that we got a radio call from base to abort the mission because —
SB: Right.
JE: The target was obscured.
SB: Oh right.
JE: By that time we’d turned on our way back and we ran into quite a bit of light aircraft flak and we had some damage to one engine which caused a slight fuel leak actually and we had to feather that engine. So we came back on, on three engines. Not too much of a problem except that we came across the Channel and that would be around about early hours of the morning I suppose and it was reasonably clear. Now, the thing was that as we approached the English coast we could see that it was thick fog.
SB: Right.
JE: We made for Killingholme, got round the circuit and we were informed to be diverted but on the radio. Again, I picked up the messages to say that we were diverted to, first of all I think it was an airfield called Hethel.
SB: Yes.
JE: We got there, still couldn’t see a thing. Absolute blanket of cloud, thick fog and then Jim said, ‘Well, look, you know this is getting a bit ridiculous. We are obviously getting a bit short of fuel by now.’ Could have been. We had been losing fuel and Ken had been organising the fuel supply to the aircraft. The flight engineer. So we decided to make for Woodbridge because we knew that that was a long runway and we might stand a chance. More of a chance of getting down there.
SB: Right.
JE: So, we set course for that. Again, we couldn’t see a thing. Absolutely thick cloud. We were down to about five hundred feet at one stage. Approaching the runway we couldn’t see the runway at all. By this time Ken said to Jack, ‘Look, this is getting a bit, a bit thin now.’ And Jack said, well Jim said, ‘Well, we’d better bale out I think.’ There was nothing, not much more we could do about it actually. So, we sort of got up to about three thousand feet and James said, ‘Ok chaps. Bale out.’ So [laughs] I can remember this, taking our helmet off to make sure that you didn’t get your cables knotted on top of your throat because that often happened. When the parachute opens, the pack goes up over your head and sometimes the base of the pack can catch your chin and if you’ve got wireless cords on, you know, cables on, the intercom cable and whatever it could catch your neck. That absolutely did happen on a few occasions. So, the thing to do was to make sure you took your helmet off. That was the first thing. This was a fairly organised bail out. I mean we had time to think about it.
SB: Yes.
JE: Which is probably [laughs] not all that good an idea really when you realise that you have been comfortable inside a piece of equipment which had been taking you around the sky for a while. Then you’ve suddenly got to leave it. And the other thing I recalled afterwards was Bob Sebaski the Canadian navigator. He was a very very precise chap indeed. Everything was done exactly accordingly to the book. With his navigation if Jim veered a degree off course Jim, Jack err Bob would pull him back and say, ‘You’re off course, Jack. You’re off course.’ So Bob being very precise we’d been told that it was advisable if you had time to empty your bladder before leaving, before bailing out because the harness goes up in the crutch and you get a sudden jerk. It can be a bit [pause] Now, Bob takes advantage of that. He’d got a can [laughs] He uses the can and he stands the can very carefully on the navigator’s table before he went out the front to make sure it didn’t get spilled. I mean this is something that all of us recall to this day.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And Bob himself remembered it of course all the years. He’s gone now. Anyway, we went out in an orderly fashion and the bomb aimer went. They were all ready. He went out first. Ken the flight engineer went out. Then Bob Sebaski went out. I followed Bob and then behind me would be the mid-upper gunner and the rear gunner. Sometimes with baling out operations I understand that rear gunners occasionally rotated their turret ninety degrees.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And went out through the back door.
SB: Yes.
JE: But in this case I think Bob err Jack Schomberg came up through the fuselage.
SB: Right.
JE: Anyway, I clipped my parachute on the two dog clips and went through the front, down into the nose, saw that hatch was about an eighteen inch gap and the thing was that sit on the edge you see, put your knees out and as the slipstream caught your shins you did a forward roll out of the, out of the hatch.
SB: Right.
JE: Which I did. To this day I don’t understand how I did it because I’m not particularly short. Looking at it now, looking at the size of that hatch I still don’t know how I did it. But anyway the thing I remember most of all was the sudden silence after what must have been about nine, eight or nine hours of flying with four Merlins or three Merlins on the way back bashing away at your ears all the time. I recall seeing the aircraft with my peripheral vision. I remember seeing the aircraft move off to the, to the starboard and disappear. After that it was a complete blank because it was thick fog, there was no sensation whatever of falling when I came out of the aircraft because I couldn’t see the ground.
SB: Right.
JE: And I did the usual. Pulled the ripcord. They say count to ten but you see question of count one ten and pull the rip cord and the first feeling I had was that it hadn’t work. Obviously it takes a few seconds for the pilot’s chute to open which then opens the main chute and then the base of the pack goes above your head and you are hung by the harness after that. Anyway, it did open. I looked up and I saw this lovely piece of white silk up there.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And then just floated down and very pleased of course that it had opened but still no sensation of falling. I still couldn’t see the ground.
SB: Was it still dark at this point?
JE: This would be about, about 6.15 in the morning.
SB: Oh, ok.
JE: Dawn.
SB: Yeah.
JE: Dawn, you see.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And coming down and I thought fine and then I suddenly began to realise I couldn’t see the ground. Where the hell was I going to land? We could have been anywhere. We knew we were over land because the aircraft was, Jim had actually afterwards he’d pointed the aircraft out to sea and put the automatic pilot on. He went out himself, and as soon as he went out the aircraft ran out of fuel and that landed in a field just outside Needham Market and went straight in.
SB: Yeah.
JE: Jim was knocked out. When the parachute opened it caught his shin and knocked him out. He doesn’t remember anything about the bale out at all until he hit. Until he came to on the ground. I came down and I just saw the ground at the last minute. I seemed to be right in the middle, in the middle of a wheat field. I tell you you’re supposed to sort of break the fall by bending your knees and doing a roll but I didn’t see the ground until I hit it and I sort of jarred my, jarred my back a bit. Twisted my knee a little bit but nothing to worry about and suddenly realised I was on the ground and in the middle of this wheat field. It was a bit bleak. I gathered the bits of the ‘chute together in my arms and I looked around and saw a farmhouse in the corner. So I walked across to the farmhouse. The first thing I remembered to do was to make sure my Mae West was open so when the farmer opened the door he could see I was RAF and not Luftwaffe. Anyway, I knocked on the door and the farmer opened the door. I explained what had happened and I said where was the nearest, did he know where the nearest Air Force Station was and he said it was RAF Wattisham. So he said, ‘I have the number for you so if you can phone through to the guardroom there they’ll arrange to pick you up. So, I was on the phone and he came up with a tumbler. A half-filled tumbler of whisky.
SB: Welcome back to England.
JE: It went down very well. Anyway, the thing was then that in about what, a matter of twenty minutes or so, a jeep came to pick us up, pick me up and it had already picked up Bob Sebaski on the way. I suppose the seven of us must have all landed within a fairly close area because we were all picked up fairly quickly and then taken to this RAF base, Wattisham. Which was in fact an American Air Force. P-38s were operating there.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And I can remember going to the control tower and reporting there and the Major with his feet stuck up on the desk and a cigar in his mouth [laughs] ‘Hi Bud,’ he says, and we explained what had happened. He said, ‘How long were you airborne?’ I said, ‘It must have been about eight or nine hours.’ He said, ‘Jesus.’ Anyway, the upshot of it was that we were all picked up and we were taken across to the sick bay there and given a thorough check over, a medical check and looked after royally. They really did look after us really well. We were there as I can remember overnight. Might have even been two days because the fog didn’t lift.
SB: Right.
JE: So they couldn’t send anything down to pick us up. In the end we had to leave by train from Ipswich to Kings Cross. Then we had to go across from Kings Cross to Euston to get the train to go back up to Lincoln.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
JE: And I can remember walking across from King’s Cross to Euston seven of us, full flying kit, carrying our parachutes. Very gruff and you know scruffy looking being stopped by an MP, SP for being improperly dressed.
SB: Oh really?
JE: Jim and I, we didn’t often pull rank but we did pull rank on this guy and told him where to get off. Anyway, they had, they had reserved a compartment for us on the train first class because we had all of our gear and it so happened that Euston was very close to where I used to live. I used to live in Middlesex. In Kenton, Middlesex, and the train wasn’t due to go out until late in the afternoon or early evening so I took the opportunity to hop on a tube train and go home and have a hot bath. My mother was absolutely staggered when she saw me walking up the path with flying boots and my Mae West and all the rest of it [laughs]
SB: Excellent.
JE: And then I, I then came back and we got on the train and got back to base and I can remember one thing. The WAAFs that looked after Jim and I in our billet they hadn’t been told that we were safe and when we arrived back at the billet they were overcome really and very pleased to see us over there. Well, of course the first thing that we did was to head over to the parachute section and offer our thanks to the people who had packed our parachutes.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
JE: That was it really.
SB: Yeah. So apart from Jim knocking himself out.
JE: Yeah.
SB: No other injuries?
JE: No. None at all. I think, as far as I can remember from what Jim tells me he was taken to the site of the aircraft where it crashed to make sure that nothing had been, incriminating had been left lying around. In fact, there was nothing left of it actually and I think the police people took him there and brought him back and it wasn’t until nineteen what? [pause] ‘78/79 or in the early 80’s when the archaeology, Aviation Archaeology people were investigating an aircraft in a field in Needham Market and they identified the tail plane of our aircraft which was stuck up and the Monica aerial was removed from it and it was identified as our aircraft and that’s the one that was in the museum at [unclear]
SB: Right. Right. Now, I saw you looking at the ORB. The squadron lost three aircraft that night. Now, I don’t, I don’t know if you know was that all from the same thing? Not being able to land or are you not sure?
JE: I think there might have been some losses over, over the, over the target area. It was, it had been a pretty difficult operation. I think it wasn’t a successful one from the point of view of very few aircraft managed to find the target. I know we did but as I say I’m not, I don’t know who was lost on that from our squadron.
SB: Right. Can we talk about the time you said when you were looking up through the astrodome?
JE: Oh yes.
SB: Was it a Halifax I think you said was above you?
JE: Yes.
SB: Can you just talk through that?
JE: That was, that was one of the first daylight raids we did. If you recall just after D-Day, although the RAF had been concerned mainly with bombing at night and it was a night bombing force when after D-Day they suddenly had a big spate of [pause] well flying bombs and things and also we did a lot of support work for the Army when they were advancing towards you know up, coming up from Normandy.
SB: Yes.
JE: And it had been bombing the area before. But this particular trip we’d do it was a trip to just outside Paris. I am not too sure what [pause] I’m not sure about what the target was but it was outside Paris.
SB: Right.
JE: And we were at our normal bombing height of about twenty thousand feet. Normally there was a staggered height for waves of aircraft as they went in. Some went in at eighteen, some went at twenty, some twenty two and it was a clear sunny day and I was standing up in the astrodome. I’d just been listening out for the base recordings on the receiver and I went up into the astrodome to have a look and see what I could see and I happened to look up. We were on our bombing run because actually what Guss was giving Jim, his directions towards the target. The usual business of “Left. Left. Steady. Right.” And so on, and I looked up and I saw a Halifax. It was a Halifax. It could have been no more than about five hundred feet above us I should think and he was, his pilot was obviously receiving the same directions from his bomb aimer because the bomb doors were open. I suddenly saw a string of bombs cascading down. They seemed to be very very close to us and I realised. God. You know, this must be happening all the time at night and we never saw it.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And of course there were a lot of casualties from aircraft and bombs being hit from above. But that was one of the experiences which I suppose I can remember a feeling of, you know almost terror seeing that lot come down.
SB: Sure. Were there other times that stick in your mind where you thought, ‘This is, this is pretty dodgy.’ Or —
JE: Well, there was one occasion. I think the mid-upper gunner gave Jim some very quick instructions, ‘For Christ’s sake, Jim. Move!” Because another, at night this was, and another aircraft must have been passing over us at the time very close to us and we had to do a sudden dive to port to get out of the way.
SB: Right.
JE: I didn’t see that because most of the time at night I was in my cabin and I didn’t bother to look out. I was listening out on the radio and at the same time watching my radar screen, the Monica screen. That was what I was doing most of the time anyway.
SB: Right. Right. Let’s go off ops for a minute and talk about the Phantom trip.
JE: Oh yes.
SB: The fighter affiliation. How did that come about?
JE: Well, occasionally when there were no ops on or when there was for some reason the Squadron was stood down we used to do what they called fighter affiliation with either Spitfires, Spitfires or Hurricanes to get them used to the idea of attacking aircraft and liaising with Fighter Command. And it so happened at the time that a JU88 had landed fully equipped. The Luftwaffe pilot was either lost or didn’t realise where he was but he landed and this was one of the latest models of the JU88 with the full radar equipment on it. They decided at the time that it would be useful to use this for fighter affiliation work because it would give them some idea of what the JU88 was capable of and also what we could do with sort of any anti-fighter tactics we could use. So I had my Monica radar switched on and that was to detect aircraft approaching from the rear. It gave your gunners, I was able to give the gunners an idea of any approaching aircraft which were either hostile or if it, if it was in a bomber stream you would see a blip on the screen which was staying in the same place or a cluster of blips which meant they were moving at the same place.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And speed as we were.
SB: Yeah.
JE: If a smaller blip came in, coming in you could see that would be a night fighter attacking so you could give your gunners an indication of where the attack was coming from. Well, the outcome of that was that we realised, or the Eastern Radar people realised, that as soon as I switched my Monica on, that JU88 was able to home onto the signal. After that, Monica was scrapped. They didn’t use it anymore. They used what, what was used was Fishpond was the one that was after that.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
JE: That was towards the end of our tour. Right at the end.
SB: Yes. Yes. Yes. That’s a question I’ll ask you about. We might have to dive into the logbook because 31st August ’44.
JE: Yeah.
SB: According to the ORB you did a daylight to [Angoville] I think in your book you say that was the same day you did the fighter affiliation. The 31st of August.
JE: Well I can see. Let’s have a look and see [pause] We must have been stood down for that, I think.
SB: Yes.
JE: You’ve seen these photographs haven’t you?
SB: Yes, I have. Yes.
JE: I’ve got a question about one of those coming up later.
SB: Right. Let’s have a quick look.
JE: It’s inconceivable.
SB: This where I’ve got to use this bloody thing.
JE: Oh yes. Yes.
[pause]
JE: That’s the beginning. Interesting when you read a logbook. At the end of each month the flight commander used to have to sign it. The adjutant. You had to put your logbook in for checking and [pause] what date are we talking about?
SB: The 31st August.
JE: Yeah. According to me the 31st of August [pause] now why have I done that? That’s strange because I’ve got the 31st of August here. 1300 take-off.
SB: Yeah.
JE: BQ G-George.
SB: Yeah.
JE: Flying officer lord. Flying officer lord. Ops [Angoville]
SB: Yeah.
JE: Bad weather conditions.
SB: Right.
JE: And then the 30th of August which was the day before.
SB: Ah.
JE: So I must have put them in the wrong way round.
SB: Ah ok.
JE: So it was the day before that.
SB: Right.
JE: It was on the 30th of August. It was what was called a mock-up. Testing radar equipment with captured JU88 and that was with the Phantom.
SB: Yes. How long was that sortie for, John?
JE: Three hours and five minutes.
SB: Oh right. Ok.
JE: Isn’t it amazing?
SB: Yes. Right. While you’ve got your logbook.
JE: Yes.
SB: There are quite a few I don’t know what the target was.
JE: Right.
SB: So the 2nd of July is the first one.
JE: We’ll have to go back a bit haven’t we. 2nd of July.
SB: Yes.
JE: That would be [pause] Domleger. Duty carried out. That was our eighth trip.
SB: Yes.
JE: That’s it. Domleger. D O M L E G E R. What that was I don’t know.
SB: Right. Was that, was that daylight or night?
JE: Daylight.
SB: Right. Then the 6th of July.
JE: 6th of July.
SB: Yeah.
JE: That was [Neufchatel.] Again a daylight.
SB: Right, and the next one is on the 8th of August.
JE: 8th of August. Return to base.
SB: Ah.
JE: That would be aborted.
SB: Ok.
JE: That would be an abort, horrible.
SB: Right. The 10th?
JE: That was the one. Now, let’s that one there afterwards. Paris the 10th that was.
SB: Yes.
JE: The 10th of August.
SB: Yes.
JE: That would be the one when the Halifax was —
SB: Right.
JE: Dugny. D U G N Y.
SB: Oh yes.
JE: Paris. Moderate but accurate flak. Five hours ten minutes. That was a daylight.
SB: Right. Ok. Then the next day. The 11th.
JE: The 11th would be. You see, we didn’t half do them quickly.
SB: You did. I know.
JE: In fact, those daylights we did I’m not sure but we did two in one day. Anyway, the 11th of August.
SB: Yes.
JE: That was Douai. DOUAI. Very bad bombing results.
SB: Right.
JE: Very good bombing results.
SB: Right.
JE: Very good. And that was four hours thirty minutes.
SB: Daylight again was it?
JE: Daylight again. Yes.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. And the 15th.
JE: The 15th. That was again a daylight. Le Culot, Brussels.
SB: Ah.
JE: Airfield well pranged [laughs] and that was three hours twenty four minutes.
SB: Right.
JE: Then of course that was a succession of daylights. Then the day after that on the 16th.
SB: Yeah.
JE: We went to Stettin.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And that was a long one. That was eight hours twenty minutes. That was a night trip.
SB: Right. Ok. Sorry, just going back to July.
JE: Yes.
SB: On the 7th.
JE: Yes.
SB: To Caen I think. Is that right?
JE: 7th.
SB: Yes.
JE: Well it’s [Frontenay] actually.
SB: Oh ok.
JE: Diverted to Oakley. That was a night.
SB: Ah.
JE: Wait a minute. Now why is that? Yes.
SB: Now, in the ORB it says you were damaged by flak on that op.
JE: Yeah and returned. That’s right because the following day we returned to base. We were diverted to Oakley to land.
SB: Right.
JE: Because obviously we were having problems.
SB: Right.
JE: And we landed. That was landed at night actually.
SB: Right. Ok.
JE: Yes. It would be because we took off at [pause] that’s very strange. Why did I do that? 09.25 we took off.
SB: Ah.
JE: And yet it’s classified here as at night.
SB: Oh strange.
JE: No. I think that, I think I must have put that in the wrong place.
SB: The 20th of July. According to the ORB that was the Kiel Canal.
JE: 20th of July.
SB: Yeah.
[pause]
JE: I can’t see anything for the 20th of July.
SB: You’re number fourteen. On the 18th July, a daylight raid to [unclear].
JE: That was the 23rd of July.
SB: Ah. Now, and I had difficulty reading the ORB in some places. The 23rd of July I had as Le Havre but that might have been a —
JE: You see that day on the 23rd of July —
SB: Yeah.
JE: We took off at 11.30 and we did a formation practise, a daylight formation practice for twenty three minutes.
SB: Oh right.
JE: And then the same day.
SB: Yeah.
JE: At 22.50.
SB: Yeah.
JE: We took off and went to Kiel.
SB: Right.
JE: Yeah.
SB: Ok.
JE: Very heavy, very heavy flak. Target well pranged.
SB: Right. Ok. The only other query I’ve got is your last one.
JE: Yeah.
SB: The 26th of September. Your book says that it was a daylight but I don’t know what the target was.
JE: Cap Gris Nez.
SB: Ah ok.
JE: Ah, that’s right. I’ll tell you what happened there. We went on the 25th of September. The 25th of September but the mission was abandoned.
SB: Right.
JE: That was Calais.
SB: Ah. Ok.
JE: That was abandoned so they came back and on the following day went to the same place. Calais. And that was our last trip.
SB: Right.
JE: Cap Gris Nez.
SB: Right. Ah ok. Now, the ORB says on the 25th of September.
JE: Yeah.
SB: You went to, ah well it says Sangatte so that’s Calais isn’t it? Yes. ok. Right. You had another aborted one apparently on the 23rd of September.
JE: Yeah. The 23rd of September. That was to [unclear] on the Ruhr. That was an aborted op.
SB: Right. Right. Ok, that answers that. It was Gee that was u/s apparently.
JE: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. Now, when we come to the aircraft.
JE: Yeah.
SB: I know that can you just talk through the story about where did, ‘We Dood It,’ come from? Where did the name come from? How did you end up using, ‘We Dood It?’
JE: I think it was probably Ken Down. He coined it I think. He was a bit of a character was Ken. When we’d finished we had all the ops, all the bombs painted on the side of the aircraft and had our photograph taken and the ground crew actually painted the, “We Dood It” on. I can’t really remember who coined it. I think that it might have been Ken. Ken Down.
SB: Right.
JE: Or even Jim. It might have been Jim.
SB: Right. Now —
JE: We Dood It.
SB: Ok. Now, I’ve got a puzzle about which aeroplane that is. Let me explain. We know it wasn’t the original George because that was the one you jumped out of.
JE: That’s right. Yes.
SB: But then you did something like ten or twelve ops in LM228 another G-George.
JE: Well, that was, that would be the second one.
SB: Yes. Second one.
JE: Yeah.
SB: Now, in your book, that is the one that you say was painted up as, “We Dood It.”
JE: Yeah.
SB: Right. But your last four ops were in different aeroplanes. PD319, and your last one was in PD321.
JE: Eh?
SB: Yeah. From the 20th —
JE: Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute [pause] The end of August.
SB: Yeah.
JE: We were in BG G-George.
SB: Yeah.
JE: Then at the beginning of September we did two trips in PD319.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And NG132.
SB: Oh right.
JE: Now, how that. That, no. No. That wasn’t. They weren’t ops.
SB: Right.
JE: They were ferrying.
SB: Right.
JE: Ferrying aircraft from Elsham Wolds to base.
SB: But then your 28th, 29th and 30th ops were in PD319 and the last one was in PD321. So the question is which aeroplane was painted up and had the thirty ops on it?
JE: Well, unfortunately, my logbook doesn’t give the aircraft number.
SB: Oh, I can tell you that because I looked it up in the ORB.
JE: Because Jim would have that you see in his logbook.
SB: I’ve got it.
JE: You’ve got it.
SB: Because it was in the ORB. Yes.
JE: Yeah. But all these last the twenty, the 28th 29th and 30th were all done, according to me in BQG-George.
SB: Yes. It was still BQG.
JE: Yeah.
SB: But it was a different air frame. Yes. Because the ORB is very specific about it. So you had BQG-George LM228.
JE: Yes.
SB: Which was the aircraft you used from your 13th to the 27th.
JE: Yes.
SB: So for the bulk of your ops.
JE: Yeah.
SB: And then your 28th was still in BQ-G but that was PD319. The 29th was PD319 and the 30th was PD321. Now, ORBs are not infallible.
JE: No.
SB: I have to say.
JE: No.
SB: So I rather suspect that the ORB is wrong and that you probably finished off in LM228 because the photograph. I mean, I can’t imagine you have thirty ops marked up there on “We Dood It” and I can’t imagine that somebody would have gone and painted up thirty bomb symbols on an aeroplane you weren’t using just for a photograph.
JE: No.
SB: So I think that the ORB is wrong.
JE: Probably wrong. Yes.
SB: Yeah. Ok. I think we can justifiably say that [pause] Right. What else did I want to ask you about?
JE: Yeah. We did quite a lot of daylights actually.
SB: Yeah.
JE: Around about that time because we did a lot of flying bomb sites.
SB: Right. Yeah.
JE: That was at the time where they decided that because the flying-bomb sites were on the Pas de Calais and close to the north of France it was a very short trip. Sort of three hours or something like that. We used to go in at about eight thousand feet after identifying the target in daylight because they were just fields with ramps on.
SB: Yes.
JE: Very difficult to detect.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
JE: And they used to have to allocate one squadron to each flying bomb site I think and they said, you know this is simple. We were going and coming back and going and coming back. You’d have to do three of those to count as one op.
SB: Oh really.
JE: Yeah.
SB: Ah.
JE: And they suddenly realised they were losing so many aircraft on these low level ones through light flak that they went back to counting them as normal. One for one.
SB: Right. What, when you say low level what altitude would you be flying?
JE: About eight thousand feet.
SB: Oh really.
JE: Yeah. Because we used to go in at ten to twenty thousand. Twenty normally.
SB: Yeah.
JE: But in order to identify these ramps you had to go in low anyway.
SB: Oh right. Yes, of course, yes. What was the longest trip you did?
JE: Let me [pause] I think probably it was Stettin.
SB: Right.
JE: Let me have a quick look. Eight hours twenty. And there was another one to Rüsselsheim, Opel Works. That was eight hours. Eight hours. There are two long ones there.
SB: Right.
JE: Nine hours thirty. That would be [pause] where was that? Oh, no that would be the Revigny one.
SB: Ah ok.
JE: Because we were, you know, stooging about.
SB: Trying to find somewhere to land.
JE: Trying to find somewhere to land. That was nine hours thirty.
SB: Right.
JE: Where else? Seven hours to Saintes.
SB: Right.
JE: And —
SB: Sterkrade. That must have been a fair —
JE: Where is that?
SB: Your second one on the 16th of June.
JE: On the day of the 16th of June [pause] That’s strange you know. That wasn’t that long.
SB: No.
JE: No. It was a Ruhr.
SB: Right. Right.
JE: Four hours thirty nine.
SB: Oh right.
JE: That would have been our [pause] third, that would have been, that would be our second trip.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
JE: Yeah. Because Jim would have done one before us as his as a second pilot.
SB: Right.
JE: You see.
SB: Right.
JE: The aircraft, the captains of the aircraft were always taken on a, what they called a second dickie trip for experience and then he always did one more than the rest of the crew.
SB: Right.
JE: Because we started on the, we started on the Le Havre actually.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
JE: And that was on the 14th of June but Jim would have done one with Peter Nicholas, the Flight Commander, the day before.
SB: Right.
JE: But I wouldn’t have that in my —
SB: No. No. No, ok. Just going back to looking at the squadron losses, the 16th June you’re at Sterkrade on the Ruhr.
JE: Yeah.
SB: There were three aircraft lost from your squadron.
JE: Ah, wait a minute. We weren’t on. We weren’t in G-George then.
SB: No. You’re right. You were in —
JE: F-Fox.
SB: F-Fox. Yes.
JE: Yes.
SB: I just wondered how aware were you of losses of other aircraft? Of crews not being there or —
JE: I think the first indication of how hazardous it was going to be because I think we arrived at the squadron not long after the Nuremburg trip and that was where they lost ninety six.
SB: Yeah.
JE: Or ninety eight or something like that.
SB: Yes.
JE: It was horrendous.
SB: Yes.
JE: Everybody realised then it was. We were in a really dodgy situation. Yes. We knew of course aircraft on the Squadron and people who didn’t come back. But there was one occasion I think, what was it? Jim recalls it more than I do but a Canadian, Clarke he brought his crew back and a heavily damaged aircraft. He baled his crew out and attempted to land but failed. He avoided a village I think and crashed in a field. They reckon he ought have got a VC for it but he didn’t. Yeah. I think that was Clarke.
SB: Right.
JE: But those things again they must have been happening at the time but I can’t recall to this day much of what went on day by day to day on the squadron apart from getting into the aircraft and doing the air tests in the morning perhaps. Going to the flights to pick up the equipment to take out there, going to the briefings of course and when you went to the briefing the first indication you had of sort of where the target was when they pulled the curtain across the map and you saw where the red tape was. As soon as that went there was an ahhh in the room. Either that or a, ‘Thank God it’s only a short one,’ sort of thing but and again we had day to day things that I don’t recall.
SB: I imagine you tended, well I imagine, I don’t know you must tell me, so when you were not flying did you tend to stick together as a crew? I mean, did you if you went out to the pub or something were you with the crew or —
JE: Yes, we used to go out to the local pubs in North Killingholme. There were two pubs there and I can remember we used to go to, I think it was at Hemsworth we used to get marvellous fish and chips.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And again we used to go out sometimes as a crew but bear in mind that both Jim and myself were both commissioned therefore living alone. Living differently from the rest of the crew. They were in sergeant’s quarters. NCO’s quarters. Jim and I shared a billet in the officer’s quarters and perhaps we didn’t have so much contact with them as we might have done on the ground but I think we were so busy. We were pretty busy out, out, out.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
JE: Flights were very close together. If you can remember we operated in the summer months and whereas a crew could take sometimes eight or nine months to complete its tour of operations in the winter when a lot of the trips were be scrubbed or cancelled or whatever —
SB: Yeah.
JE: Due to bad weather conditions we got through our tour very quickly.
SB: You did.
JE: And there couldn’t have been an awful lot of time to spend, you know outside the camp apart from when we went on leave. We used to get, we used to get seven days leave every, every six weeks I think. So there would be periods where we went on leave during the tour.
SB: Right. Right. And you went home then did you?
JE: Yeah. We went home.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
JE: Yeah. But again I suppose it’s what you remember really more than anything else. You remember learning the job, doing the job and making sure you could do the job properly. Going out to the flights, getting you kit, getting the two accumulators for the wireless section which you had to take out to the aircraft because they were, they were acid accumulators for the, which you had to take out freshly out every day. Doing an air test to make sure the aircraft was serviceable. But a lot of the work looking after the radio equipment was done by the wireless mechanics. They would make sure the aircraft was tuned up to the right frequencies before you got into the aircraft.
SB: Sure. Sure. Did you tend to see the same ground crew? Or did it vary?
JE: As far as I remember it was the same ground crew the whole time.
SB: Yes. Do you remember any of their names?
JE: No.
SB: No.
JE: Not at all.
SB: No.
JE: Not at all.
SB: Oh. Ok.
JE: It was their aircraft.
SB: Yes.
JE: We just borrowed it from them.
SB: Absolutely [laughs] and woe betide you if you didn’t bring it back.
JE: That’s right. Yes.
SB: So what about, let’s go to the end of the tour then? You’ve done your last op. How did you feel? Was it relieved? Pleased?
JE: Relieved, I think. What happened on our last we had this thing where on our last op it was, I think it was aborted from what we thought was going to be our last op.
SB: Yes. Yes.
JE: We went and didn’t come back and didn’t go there. So what the idea was that in the Mess on your last trip you made sure there was a pail of beer left on the bar for when you came back and the crew that was on the last op they made, high tailed it for base so they were the first to land, went into the bar and got the beer lined up for everybody else who came in you see. Well, we did that and of course put the bar, the pail of beer on the bar but of course it wasn’t counted so we had to go back and do the same thing the following day.
SB: [laughs] You must have been popular.
JE: Oh dear, yeah. But again, relief. But I think as far as I can remember we went, we went on leave. We were sent on leave and came back to the squadron before being posted to where we were supposed to go and I think that was a moment where I felt possibly very depressed because we had been as a crew, the seven of us for what, eighteen months or so really training, operating and then suddenly these other six chaps who were with you all that time just dispersed. I felt completely [pause] well disorientated really.
SB: Right.
JE: I think that was the feeling about it. The fact that you’d lost touch with these chaps and you weren’t sure what was, what was going to be ahead. I remember that very clearly. It was like having six brothers as a crew.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. How long was it before you came across any of them again after you split up?
JE: Well, it would be the Spring of 1945. In fact, it would be, yes it would be spring ’44 when Jim Lord was married and I was his best man.
SB: Ah. Right.
JE: And I kept in touch with Jim all of the time pretty well. Even after the war he was, he moved to Leicester and I eventually moved up into the Bletchley, Milton Keynes area. I was still in touch with him occasionally. Not all the time because we were both busy having a career to build you see. Both had families to bring up. The rest of the crew just dispersed completely. The two, the two Canadians obviously went back to Canada.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And the others, Jack Shomberg, the Australian must have gone back to Australia. We never knew what happened to the mid-upper gunner.
SB: Pat Sculley is that?
JE: That’s Pat Sculley.
SB: Pat Sculley. Yeah.
JE: At that time Ken, Ken Down, we thought he came from Devon or Cornwall which was where he came from and apparently he went back to teaching or went to teaching but we didn’t know until later on when we met him that he actually moved back to Dartford in Kent and he was teaching there. So he became a schoolmaster.
SB: Right. Right.
JE: And we didn’t meet Ken, or we met Bob Sebaski. When would it be [pause] 1978.
SB: Right. Right.
JE: And then a couple of years after, Ken Down we met together in London. And that was the first time we met. We had reunions.
SB: Right. What about Guss Vass?
JE: We never saw him again. Ken and Bob Sebaski was in touch with him being Canadian but we didn’t meet him again.
SB: Right.
JE: And apparently he had health problems and eventually he died in the late 80’s or early 90’s I would think.
SB: Right. Right. But —
JE: We kept in touch with Bob Sebaski because Bob had come over for the annual reunions, squadron reunions at North Killingholme every year. Year after year. So we kept in touch with Bob.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. But Jack Shomberg, you know nothing about?
JE: No. No.
SB: Right.
JE: What happened was with Jack Shomberg, when I wrote my book I think I had occasion to, I think we must have been at a meeting of the Aircrew Association Beds and Bucks Branch where we had a visit from the Secretary of the Caterpillar Club and we mentioned that we hadn’t heard anything. I admitted we hadn’t heard anything of the crew and she said well she could find out through the Caterpillar Club of any, any correspondence that had taken place. She came back and she said that she had some communication from Jack Shomberg, the Australian in the 1990’s or the late 1980s. He was asking for his Caterpillar Club badge to be, or Caterpillar Club to be replaced and there was some correspondence between Jack Shomberg and the Caterpillar Club around about that time. So they had an address for him and a telephone number. We found out from the Caterpillar Club that actually Jack Shomberg died in 1991 so we weren’t able to get in touch with him but as soon as I wrote my book and we’d got this address and telephone number, Jim Lord phoned up the address in, I think it was in Queensland [pause] New South Wales, in Australia somewhere anyway, spoke to his widow —
SB: Right.
JE: And I sent a book, a copy of my book out to his widow and as soon as she received it she phoned us up on the Sunday morning to say that was the first time they ever knew what her husband had done during the war.
SB: Good lord. Really?
JE: Although she was in the Royal Australian Air Force she, they as a family didn’t know what Jack Shomberg had done.
SB: Good grief.
JE: So my book was a revelation to them.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
JE: Now, Jack Shomberg had a twin and his twin brother Charles was killed just before we started our tour of operations. So that might have been one of the reasons why he didn’t talk about it too much.
SB: He was an Air Force man as well, was he?
JE: Yes. He was killed. I forget. He was obviously buried in France.
SB: Oh right. Right.
JE: Because again after we had contact with Jack Shomberg’s family, his daughter and her husband visited us and they had a quick visit through here. They called upon us at about 12 o’clock at night. They were on their way down. We had two hours hectic session with them here and apparently they used to go to their uncle, that was Charles, their uncle’s grave in France.
SB: Ah, right. Right.
JE: And we didn’t know anything. Any of this at all. None of this.
SB: Right. Well, I think I have exhausted everything I have wanted to ask you but is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you would like to cover?
JE: I can’t really think about too much. One thing of course I do remember was when we actually crewed up. I went in first of all when I, when I volunteered for the RAF. My brother was called. He volunteered in 1939 and became a pilot and obviously I wanted to follow in his footsteps because I’d been in the Air Cadets, in the Air Training Corps as a Cadet in 1941 from my old school squadron and did some training with the Air Cadets. So I had a fair basis of Morse Code and drill and training before I went in the Air Force. Unfortunately, when I volunteered for aircrew I went for my medical and I was turned down because of my bad eyesight. My left eye was short sighted. So I had to go in as a ground staff wireless operator which disappointed me very much. It made my mother very pleased of course.
SB: Yes.
JE: By this time my brother was a fully qualified pilot but he was instructing the whole time. As soon as he qualified as a pilot he became trained as an instructor and he was instructing at AFUs, Advanced Flying Units from 1940 right the way through to 1944 on Ansons and Oxfords.
SB: Oh right.
JE: Now, when I went to, in the Air Force I went to Padgate first of all. Then was first basic training at ITW at Blackpool. Then I was sent from Blackpool down to Madley for radio course training to train as a ground staff wireless operator. Now, it was while I was down there at Madley and halfway through the course they relaxed the eye test for aircrew and any other than pilots were able to qualify as aircrew. So I immediately re-mustered and I persuaded another one of my friends, a close friend at the time, Cliff Crawley. He came in with me right through Blackpool and to Madley and he and I both re-mustered to aircrew and at the end of the radio, first radio course at Madley we were posted actually back to Blackpool of all places. And there both of us were posted as ground staff wireless operators which, which threw us completely. I think they were going to somewhere like Iceland or something like that but fortunately we pestered the adjutant there at Blackpool and said that we were re-mustered aircrew and he pulled us off the course. Then we waited for basic training for, for aircrew. I think we waited what [pause] now, let me try and think what happened there [pause] Yes. I was posted to Millom, I think. Or posted to Scotland. That’s right. After the first, after the first course at Madley I was sent up to Scotland for ground staff wireless work and it was while I was up in Scotland that we were attached to an Army base just north of Edinburgh and I was on a, in a hut there with just three of us there and we did ground staff radio. Air to ground radio. And after that I was sent back down to Madley I think. It’s a bit vague as to why that happened but I do know what we were re-mustered anyway. Anyway, we did training, aircrew radio operator training as aircrew wireless operators. Again, back to Madley and then after that of course we did AFUs. Advanced Flying Units and I went to, first of all Gloucester. A place called Staverton.
SB: Yes.
JE: Which was between Gloucester and Cheltenham.
SB: Yes.
JE: Did a week there and then were posted to a satellite airfield at Moreton Valance and that was where we did our AFU training on Ansons.
SB: Ah right.
JE: And that was about a five week, six week course I suppose. A very good course actually. We had an excellent instructor there who was a Sergeant when we started but he was promoted to Pilot Officer and he was a very good instructor. It was on that occasion I had a weekend off. I went to Greenham Common where my brother was flying and actually spent the weekend with him and flew with him in an Anson.
SB: Oh excellent. Excellent.
JE: After that AFU I was called to the office one day, headquarters AFU and for a Commissioning Board. Hadn’t had any indication of that at all but apparently I was selected for commissioning and told that at the end of our Operational Training course, or Operational Training Unit I would be commissioned. So, I went to, left AFU and went to Operational Training Unit at Peplow which was near Wellington. That was 83 OTU. Let’s have a look and see what we’ve got here. [pause] Peplow [pause] Ah that’s, that’s Number 6 AFU.
SB: Right.
JE: And Ansons. I must have done something like fifty five hours daylights on training and six hours fifty at night. WT exercises.
SB: Right.
JE: QDMs. Loop readings. Navigational aids. So on and so forth and that was from the 7th of September 1943 through to the 9th of October.
SB: Right.
JE: ’43. Then of course we were sent to [pause] yes. Peplow.
SB: Yeah.
JE: 12th of, 12th of November. 83 OTU we must have been sent, we must have been on leave then and of course it was there where we were sent to a huge hangar and told to get yourself sorted out. All the aircrew categories got together, you know, pilots navigators just put in a heap and told to sort ourselves out unlike any normal military organisation where you were told what to do. You were told you were going to be crewed up with so and so. They left you to sort yourselves out.
SB: Yes.
JE: Wandering around in this big hall with all these other people. That was where I met Jim.
SB: Yes. Yes.
JE: I said to Jim, ‘Are you looking for a wireless op?’ And then we met up with Bob of course and the others and that is how we crewed up.
SB: Did you have Ken there though because a lot of people say —
JE: No.
SB: That the flight engineers joined later didn’t they?
JE: That was you had, let’s see would we have had two. We must have only had one, one gunner. We must have only had one because we were on Wellingtons you see.
SB: Ah.
JE: And they would only have been —
SB: Right.
JE: Twin-engine aircraft.
SB: Yes.
JE: Now, whether we had two gunners and they took it in turns to fly in the rear turret that was probably what happened. And then after we did the [pause] That was quite a long session at Peplow. Went through to 31st of December [pause] Still Peplow I think. Yes. 30th of January.
SB: Gosh yeah.
JE: 31st of January was the last trip that we did in the Wellington, I think. No. February the 1st. High level bombing exercise. Ah, that’s right and then on the 1st of May, bloody hell what did we do all that time? It’s amazing when you look at this. 1st of February [pause] and then February. What were we doing all that time?
SB: Yeah.
JE: From [pause] we didn’t do any flying between the 1st of February until [pause] the 1st of May.
SB: Good grief. Strange.
JE: There’s something missing here.
SB: So the 1st of May was HCU was it?
JE: The 1st of May was Heavy Conversion Unit.
SB: Yeah.
JE: Yes. And then the 27th of May, Lancaster Finishing School at Hemswell and we only did what? A short time there. Familiarisation, fighter affiliation, circuits and landings, circuits and landings and overshoots. But that was, that was the Lancaster Finishing School.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And then we went to 550 Squadron.
SB: Yeah. Where was the HCU?
JE: That was at Sandtoft.
SB: Oh right. Yes.
JE: Prangtoft.
SB: Prangtoft. Yes. Halifaxes.
JE: Oh God. Well, they were clapped out Halifaxes. They were Merlin Halifaxes. Old aircraft. We, we very seldom came back on four engines. We did cross countries. Emergency landing at Halfpenny Green. That was when we came down on two engines at night. That was probably the hairiest thing we ever did. I don’t know how Jim got that down. He said we nearly had it that night. And the thing I recall about that trip was that of course these were summer months and the heating in these aircraft was [ducted] on the inside from the inner engines and on this trip we were doing a night cross country and one engine packed up and had to be feathered and the second inboard engine had to be, packed up and that was feathered. Of course, all the heat went off and I got cold [laughs] We had to make ourselves down to somewhere to find somewhere to land and we came down and located Halfpenny Green and that was an AFU.
SB: Yes.
JE: A very small airfield.
SB: Yes. Yes.
JE: We did three attempts to come in. we had to wait every time. They refused to let us in and then finally Jim said, ‘Look,’ he said, ‘This is stupid. I want to go in.’ And he went in on a red and the aircraft slewed at the end of the runway and landed up within about twenty yards of the control tower. How he got that down I don’t know.
SB: Wow.
JE: But he did a tremendous job getting that in. He got commended for that actually.
SB: Did he? Yeah. Yeah.
JE: But —
SB: I take it that you didn’t go home in the same aeroplane then [laughs] Left it there did you?
JE: Some, actually we, they did, they did pick us up from there in daylight. A flying officer came to pick us up I think. Yeah. So you know it was —
SB: Yeah.
JE: Some of these things you remember quite clearly but again at the, at OTU we were all sergeants of course and when we finished our course at OTU I went home on leave as a Sergeant and came back as a Pilot Officer and that of course was when I was separated from the rest of the crew.
SB: Yeah.
JE: I was a little bit concerned about it at the time because you know but I needn’t have worried about it because the others weren’t too bothered. Once you’re in the aircraft rank didn’t matter.
SB: Right. Right.
JE: I mean the captain, in a four-engine bomber or any any bomber for that matter the pilot was the captain of the aircraft whether he was a sergeant or whether he was a wing commander.
SB: That’s right. Yeah.
JE: So Jim was in charge.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And then Jim was commissioned anyway when he, after he got to the squadron.
SB: Right. Right. I have thought of something else I wanted to ask you. About a month ago you went up to Coningsby and got back inside the Lanc.
JE: Yeah.
SB: What was that like?
JE: Brilliant. Brilliant. Unfortunately, I didn’t get a photograph of me actually in my position because that bloody camera there we couldn’t get the flash to operate. We went there, pouring with rain, it was a horrible day but we got there nice and early and Yvonne Masters introduced us to first of all Emily Barrington, a sergeant who was in the RAF. She was waiting for training as a helicopter pilot and she looked after us. There were two, three other wireless operators, ex-wireless operators besides myself who were with us and we were taken behind the barrier into the aircraft and it was an ex-Squadron Leader, Stuart who looked after us. He took us into the aircraft and again I climbed up the steps, went past the mid-upper turret, past the rest bed, up over the lower, the rear spar and over the main spar and sat in my old seat there. The squadron leader, he was, I think he was more concerned about well he learned more, he was more interested in us, in what we did. He said, ‘You know more about this aircraft than I do obviously.’ A very nice chap he was actually. He took us around and I sat in the pilot’s seat and then went down into the bomb aimer’s position. Well, of course, that Lancaster there was dual controls.
SB: Right.
JE: So it had rudder pedals which went above where we went down into the, into the bomb bay in the bomb aimers position. But what they did was alter that so we could go down into it.
SB: Right.
JE: I got down into it alright and realised that Guss must have been on his stomach the whole bloody trip. There was nowhere to sit there.
SB: No.
JE: You just laid down there on a cushion across the, across the escape hatch where the bombing controls were and you just looked out through the front of the aircraft.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
JE: So he must have been on his belly the whole day. The whole time. I spent a lot of time talking with, we all reminisced about our experiences in it. I stood up in the astrodome and looked through there. Had a look at the the direction-finding loop because we used to use that quite a bit for the wireless operator. Two things I think were the wireless operator’s nightmare. First of all forgetting to wind in the trailing aerial before you came to land and secondly when you were direction finding loop exercises giving a bearing for the navigator to come home on. What you had to do was to tune into a signal on a beacon which was your known location, homed onto that beacon and the loop you got a louder signal and when it was at the loudest pitch that was the bearing. A loop was on but if you got a reciprocal the signal was the same. Not quite so loud. Loud but not quite so loud and you had to make sure that it was the loudest one you could hear otherwise you would be doing, giving a final reciprocal course.
SB: Yeah.
JE: And that was a great help to the navigator because sometimes their equipment packed up and they got a bit bit lost. Quite often Bob used to ask me for a QDM so I could give him a bearing. Jim said many times we, I’ve got them back.
SB: There is another thing. Another question has come to me. There is a lot of talk and mythology about so-called Scarecrows which I have read and heard people say that the Germans had some sort of weapon that could fire vastly explosive shells into the middle of a bomber formation and they became known as Scarecrows. But people have said no. That this is nonsense. What they were were bombers exploding when they were hit by flak. I mean, do you have reminiscences of anything like that?
JE: Not really. No. I think what you have to remember is that unlike the rest of the crew Bob Sebaski and I had a different viewpoint. He says, we all say to this day or we said to this day when we all got together although there were seven of us all in the same aircraft each one of us all had a different viewpoint. When Bob and Ken and Jim read my book they all said the same thing. They realised that I had a different perspective to what they did. You’ve got to realise that the bomb aimer, the pilot, flight engineer and the two gunners were looking out all the time. Bob and I weren’t. We were in our cabin.
SB: Yeah. Yeah.
JE: Doing our, doing our work and I must say that on that trip to Kiel at night I pulled my window back, switched the light off and pulled my window curtain back and had a look. I looked out and I saw the flak coming up and that was when I got a bit frightened. I thought to myself, ‘God look at that lot there.’ I pulled the curtain back and I didn’t look out after that. I just didn’t look out and of course the rest of the boys saw it all the time.
SB: Yeah.
JE: But I don’t recall I mean they saw aircraft going down there is no doubt about that.
SB: Yes. Yes.
JE: But didn’t talk too much about it.
SB: No. No.
JE: Didn’t talk about it at all.
SB: No.
JE: I suppose we didn’t really. We were so focused on getting the job done.
SB: Yeah.
JE: I suppose we were lucky really in that we, we had our tour in the summer where we did a lot of daylights. There was one, one I remember I’ll see if we can pick it up [pause] An interesting one it was. Ah yes. That was, that was a long one. Eight, it was a daylight, eight hours. Eight hours O five and it was on our [pause] I can’t see it. Our seventeenth op.
SB: Oh right. Yes.
JE: Pauillac.
SB: Yes.
JE: No opposition whatever and the the flight details that we were given at the briefing were to go out in to daylight. We had to go out across the south coast, down to fifty feet in daylight.
SB: Wow.
JE: Fifty to a hundred feet across the Bay of Biscay. Right across the bay to avoid the radar obviously and then about ten miles outside the target climb to eight thousand feet. It was an oil refinery. Climb to eight thousand feet, bomb and then back down again. Everybody was you know, these aircraft, the pilot used love low, used to love that low level stuff and and we it was a beautiful clear day. We could look across the Bay of Biscay. We saw fishing vessels just almost a few feet below us. Absolutely clear. It was like a training operation. Up to the target, bombed, came back. No opposition whatsoever.
SB: Wow. Goodness me.
JE: And actually it says here we were diverted to Sandtoft for some reason. I don’t know why. Obviously the aircraft, we must have had some bad weather coming back. But we, that was a doddle that one. Apparently, about two days later they did exactly the same thing and they lost about thirty aircraft because of they’d got their defenced going then.
SB: Right. Oh gosh.
JE: But that was a Pauillac. That was a long very interesting one that. But you know things like that I can remember.
SB: Right. That’s amazing. Thank you, John.
JE: Is that —
SB: That’s, that’s marvellous. What I’d like to do if you, if you’re happy can I photograph your logbook?
JE: Yes.
SB: Please. I’ve got, I have my camera with me.
JE: Yeah.