Interview with Aubrey Coles. One
Title
Interview with Aubrey Coles. One
Description
The interviewer mentions a friend who was on 158 Squadron and Aubrey mentions that brother was a wireless operator, special operations, out in India. He talks about early operations to Lens and then to Stuttgart as a second dickie. He watched petrified as he counted twenty two aircraft lost in front of his flight. He continues with anecdotes of other notable operations and experiences and mentions being hit by flak. Aubrey discusses tour lengths and loss of their aircraft with another crew. He describes the time after leaving operations and after the end of the war.
Date
2015-11-16
Spatial Coverage
Language
Type
Format
01:03:48 audio recording
Conforms To
Publisher
Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
SBondS-ColesAv10004
Transcription
SB: 158. A great friend of mine who died about six months ago he was also on 158 from I think up to October ’44, weren’t you? Is that about right?
AC: Yeah. Yes. That is about right. I’m just trying to think where I started then.
SB: Well, according to the list I’ve got—
AC: I’ve got my logbook.
SB: Oh well, we’ll have a look at that later. But yes so I was he was very keen on 158. He was, just a little story about him just to sort of set the scene. The sort of thing I’ve been doing. He was a w/op a.g.
AC: Yeah.
SB: And he started his tour on 158 in about the time you left. October, November ’44. He was shot down on his twelfth op on the way into Hanover in January ’45.
AC: That’s carelessness isn’t it.
SB: Very careless [laughs] I know. Unforgivable really. He went on the run, was captured after about nine days and a few years ago now I found out who shot him down who is still alive and I took him out to Germany and they had a few days together and got on like a house on fire. But anyway that’s another story. So I’m just as interested in Halifax stuff as well. So perhaps we could start with that can we Aubrey and just chat about it really.
AC: Yes. I’ve got one or two bits of paper that might help.
SB: Yeah. By all means. Yes and a logbook is always a good thing to be able to look at.
[pause]
SB: A nice little fire guard isn’t it?
Other: It’s very nice actually. Very nice indeed.
AC: Logbook
SB: Ok.
AC: My late brother who was a wireless op and he was a special operator.
SB: Ah.
AC: Going out and picking up, you know details of all the [pause] he got sent to India and two of them were doing this job and they used to, their average sort of flying time was about fifteen hours and he used to fly right over Japan. And the other crew that were doing the job were shot down and they were all captured and they were all beheaded.
SB: Oh gosh. Golly.
AC: And I knew the chap because, the operator because my brother brought him home before they flew out by Sunderlands.
SB: Oh right.
AC: Out to the Far East.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: And there was one chap because the Japanese, and they had about three people who were wireless operators and there was one chap was particularly tortured and he didn’t give the game away. He got a George Cross later but he was killed and they beheaded the lot.
SB: Oh God. Good God.
AC: So they never did find out who it was but —
SB: Oh dear me.
AC: I’d never buy a Japanese car there.
SB: Oh, well. I can understand that.
AC: That is —
Other: I knew somebody else you used to say that.
SB: So these are your ops or —
AC: Yes. It started.
SB: Right. I see you there.
AC: Yes. And —
SB: So 10th and 11th of May Lens Marshalling Yards.
AC: Yeah.
SB: The first one.
AC: And it gives the results of every op.
SB: Ok. Just, just before we delve into these taking a bit of a step back where did you do your OTU? HCU rather.
AC: Marston Moor.
SB: Oh right. Ok.
AC: And as we arrived some Irish, I don’t know, a corporal took us to our billets and he said, ‘Ah you’re just too late to see Group Captain Cheshire.’ He’s a marvellous man. He used to go out and play cards with the ground crew and out in the sticks, you know. They really idolised him which —
SB: Yeah.
Other: He did how many?
SB: Cheshire? I don’t know. He did about —
Other: A hundred wasn’t it?
SB: Something like that. He did an awful lot of ops.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Yes. That’s right. So, Lens Marshalling Yards.
AC: That’s the first and then they carry on.
SB: I see.
AC: In order.
SB: Right. Then of course this is building up for D-Day isn’t it?
AC: Yes.
SB: So there were lots of marshalling yards, railway yards.
AC: Yes.
SB: And those sorts of things. Yeah.
AC: I did one trip. I don’t know if it’s on there. My first op was to Stuttgart.
SB: Oh right.
AC: I went to 640 Squadron which was an offset of 158.
SB: Right.
AC: And the, what was it? Yes, it was Stuttgart. We were just taken for experience. There were two of us went up there and there were twenty two aircraft lost that night and I was sat there petrified and I was counting them and they were going down in front of us.
SB: Really. Wow. God.
AC: And in the middle of it there was a [whoof] and a single engine aircraft shot across from about the height of this room away [laughs] Made me jump.
SB: God.
AC: The bloke said, ‘Keep your bloody eyes open.’ And I thought well he didn’t see it.
SB: So you were acting as second, second dickie then were you?
AC: Yes.
SB: On that trip. Yeah. Ok. Well, you must, what must have gone through your head? This is your first. Your first op. You must have thought —
AC: I [unclear]
SB: That’s an understatement isn’t it?
AC: Mind you it’s different when you’re doing the job yourself I think.
SB: I imagine so. Yes. So then what have we got? Marshalling yards again.
AC: So I was much more relaxed with the last pilot.
Other: Relaxed.
AC: Yeah.
Other: Is there such a word?
AC: What?
Other: Is there such a word when you are doing that? Relaxed.
AC: Yes. There is.
Other: Yeah.
SB: Now I notice there that there’s one that you are probably glad you missed actually because I was looking it up yesterday having seen when you were on the squadron.
AC: Yes.
SB: The squadron had a really bad night on the 24th 25th of May to Aachen and you lost five aircraft that night.
AC: Yes. But were they all over the target? I don’t think they were.
SB: No. They weren’t all lost over the target. No.
AC: No.
SB: But that must have been a pretty tough time.
AC: Yeah.
SB: For the squadron.
AC: Well, we had one op. We were going to do a daylight. I’ve forgotten where it was now but we had what they, what they used to call the fog up there you know. They had a name for it in Yorkshire. It was about two hundred feet up and almost to the ground and we were taking off in this and then we had to formate with the rest of 4 Group over Filey [pause] Flamborough Head. The chap who took off in front of me was a French-Canadian, a funny little chap and I don’t think he could reach the pedals too much [laughs] He was having trouble and he must have lost control and they went straight into the beach at [Bridlington] and great flames coming out through this fog. I thought well I’m not going down through that. I flew around the top until we were all clued up and I was telling another chap about it afterwards and he said, ‘It’s alright,’ he said, ‘I was following you?’ And and then another night an American pilot we had, a quiet chap he crashed in front of me coming into land in a village near Foston on the Wolds I think it was.
SB: Oh right.
AC: Somewhere up near Bridlington and I think two [pause] two were killed straight away, two died that night, and he died. So they were all wiped. And they went between cottages. No one was hurt on the ground and hit a barn opposite and no civilians were hurt. It was only us —
SB: Goodness me.
AC: Getting off. Sorry I’m —
SB: No. That’s absolutely fine, Aubrey. You carry on. Well, this sounds like quite an interesting, I’m sure they were all interesting in their own way.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Sterkrade oil plant. 16th 17th of June.
AC: Oh right.
SB: Quite a busy time with night fighters it would seem on that particular occasion.
AC: Well, we didn’t have much problems with them because I had a good crew there’s no doubt about it. But the wireless op he was a star. He went on. He flew with the chap who was the head of [pause] what was his name. He was a squadron leader then and he he was head of the Air Force and he’s now head of group, well — [pause] at Hendon.
SB: Oh. The Bomber Command Association you mean?
AC: Yes. Yes.
SB: Yeah.
Other: You’re both doing it now.
SB: Yeah [laughs] Yes. We both know who we mean but we’ll come, it will come to one of us.
Other: On this occasion tell me.
SB: Yeah, we will. Yeah.
AC: My wireless op, [unclear] his name was he was a wireless op at the end of the war.
SB: Right.
AC: But when he flew with us he was a funny bloke to get on but he was first class and he, one night he was upgrading the offshoot of the, oh crumbs my memory. [pause] The navigator had this. Oh, crumbs what is it?
SB: Gee. H2S.
AC: H2S.
SB: H2S.
AC: But you could have an offshoot of that. It was called Fishpond.
SB: Fishpond.
AC: Fishpond.
SB: Yeah.
AC: And my wireless op was working that and he said we were being followed and for about a good half hour we were being followed. Everything I did you know rolled it all over the shop he still followed us.
SB: Right.
AC: And then out of the blue he said, ‘Oh. He’s turned around and gone back.’ And this thing about that size and that night, a great friend of mine we got the chop on the same, the same bit. He really earned his keep that night.
SB: Gosh. Fishpond came after Monica.
Other: Oh right. What you were telling me about.
SB: Monica they had to stop using because the Germans could follow it.
Other: At the back of a Lanc.
SB: That’s right.
Other: Yeah.
SB: But Fishpond sort of came after that and it was passive so they couldn’t.
AC: Well, they must have you know I suppose it wasn’t much better than the other really because they were picking it up.
SB: Well, yeah. That’s right. because what they hadn’t well what we hadn’t realised was we only discovered as I’m sure you know of course you know you were there we only discovered that the Germans could pick up the transmissions from Monica —
AC: Yeah.
SB: When a Junkers 88 defected.
AC: Yeah.
SB: And we flew it and oh yes they can pick us up. So then we brought out Fishpond which we thought was secure against the radar in the 88. In the meantime they’d put on Naxos radar which could pick up Fishpond.
AC: Yeah.
SB: They were always trying to keep on step ahead.
AC: Yes.
SB: Of each other all the time wasn’t it?
Other: Was that what happened to the Junkers? The guy defected.
SB: Yeah. Well, he said he was lost but the thinking is he actually defected. These are quite interesting. You got Wizernes which was the V-2 factory wasn’t it?
AC: Yes. That was a daylight.
SB: A daylight, yes. 07.00. Judged to be a very attack against negligible opposition. Crews did report pinky red flak bursting amongst the usual black stuff. Different.
Other: What was that?
SB: I don’t know. I don’t know [unclear]
Other: Another book for you.
SB: Please [pause] I see the same Lancaster is tending to crop up for you each time now. Did you, did you tend to fly the same aeroplane once you started? Once you got into your tour? I see HX329.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Crops up almost every time now.
AC: Yeah.
SB: That would be your Halifax.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
AC: But [unclear]
SB: Yes. Yes.
AC: At that time.
SB: Yeah. You did thirty seven altogether. Is that right?
AC: Yes.
SB: How did that happen then?
AC: Well, they were supposed to be. They put us up to forty at that time.
Other: Really?
AC: Yeah.
Other: It was thirty wasn’t it?
SB: Originally thirty.
AC: Of course it was easier for some other poor devils but it didn’t work really because that night I’m talking about with the old Fishpond another chap a friend of mine, he was a policeman, an ex-policemen. He seemed too gentle to be a policeman but he was. He was lost that night in about the same spot.
SB: Right.
AC: In the middle.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: He never reached forty two and they chopped it back then.
SB: Now, this sounds interesting. You’ve got to talk. You’ve got to tell me about this one. 20th 21st of July Ardouval. And it says here due to the very severe turbulence of the storm over the Channel, due to very severe turbulence some pilots reported temporary loss of control of their aircraft and you couldn’t hear the master bomber. And against you it says did not carry out. Jettisoned part of load and returned to base with eight left in the bomb bay.
AC: Yes.
SB: Tell me about then. That one then. That sounds pretty —
AC: Nothing really. It was called off I think and we hadn’t dropped them so, but I don’t think if it had been over the enemy with no conscience we’d have let them out but I can’t remember the circumstances there and then. Another, my second op we, we joined what we thought was a circuit and all the talk was right but we landed at the wrong aerodrome.
SB: Oh really.
AC: Fortunately, a senior crew of our squadron did the same thing that night.
SB: Oh right. Right.
AC: We didn’t stay long [laughs] we —
Other: Where was the base?
AC: I’m trying to think of it.
SB: Lissett.
Other: Lissett.
SB: Lissett in Yorkshire. Your base was Lissett.
AC: I’m trying to think of this other place just down the road.
Other: How many were in that? This must have been a few.
SB: Yes. Well there were a lot of bases quite close to each other weren’t there? So it must have been —
AC: Oh yes.
SB: Quite easy.
AC: Certainly in that part of Yorkshire.
SB: Yes.
AC: Yeah.
Other: Yes.
AC: I think they probably had more than well I suppose Lincolnshire had loads.
Other: Right up there.
AC: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
AC: Above us North Yorkshire the Canadians were there.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
AC: We had such a mixture of people. It was quite interesting really you know. Canadians as well. Americans. One or two. One of the Americans they were asked for the chance to join the US Air Force because they got three times as much pay and we had flight sergeant who did. He took it up. But the one I was talking to he was only, really only a flying officer and he had paid for his own flying lessons when he was at college in America and he said, ‘I’m not going.’ He said, ‘I joined this to join the Air Force. The Royal Air Force. And I like it and I wouldn’t go.’
Other: I guess by then there was with the American guys in there as well there must have been quite a settled atmosphere.
AC: Yes.
Other: You don’t really want to go do you?
AC: No.
Other: You know who you are don’t you?
SB: Yeah.
SB: 2nd of August [Le Havre] and I’ve got it against you it’s got hit by flak over the target.
AC: Yeah. It wasn’t much.
SB: No.
AC: No. Actually we were a bit struggling from bombs dropping from the top.
SB: Yeah.
AC: The wireless. One hit the flight engineer and one bit hit the bomb aimer. [unclear]
SB: Yes.
AC: And there was a terrible smell drifted back. It was the bomb aimer and he said, ‘I shit myself gentleman.’ And he had. Oh dear.
SB: Oh dear.
AC: There was always something to laugh at.
Other: I don’t know how you’d deal with that [unclear] Oh dear.
AC: The ground crew put a bit of it. The flight engineer had it had put a patch [unclear]
SB: More excitement on the Brunswick trip I see. Hit by flak again whilst over the target area.
AC: That was the Brunswick one.
SB: That was. Right.
AC: Yeah.
SB: You’d got a thousand pound hung up.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Eventually jettisoned over the sea.
AC: The flight engineer was supposed to check and he’d missed it. Hang ups. Dropped it.
Other: We were just talking about loads that wouldn’t drop when we were at RAF Hendon this morning just you couldn’t get through could you to do anything. If it had stuck —
AC: Yeah.
Other: It was stuck wasn’t it?
AC: Yeah.
Other: A bit nerve wracking.
AC: I think Americans must have been a bit more disciplined in daylight. We didn’t see day much.
SB: Really?
AC: I mean once we’d led the squadron for one operation in daylight it was [unclear] sometimes and everyone was getting past me as we got nearer the target. No discipline at all.
Other: That’s a lot of work.
SB: It is a lot of work. Yes. Yes. Fascinating actually. Ah, now what does [pause] we’ve got one here Bottrop. September.
AC: Bottrop.
SB: Only one squadron could identify the target and in general the entire attack was spasmodic and scattered. Inaccurate flak. Master bomber heard calling sour grapes.
AC: Yeah.
SB: So what was the meaning of sour grapes?
AC: I’ve forgotten. I don’t. I don’t remember. I don’t remember hearing it anyway.
SB: Oh right.
AC: But it must have been clear off. Stop.
SB: Because it sounds as though, ‘It’s all gone pear shaped chaps. Let’s go home.’ Yeah.
AC: That’s, it’s a trick to get my memory back after a while.
SB: Well, it’s a long time ago isn’t it but [pause] oh Duisburg. A friend of mine, sadly no longer with us was a Hampden wireless operator. He did his, he did a full tour on Hampdens. A lucky chap. A very lucky chap.
AC: Yes.
SB: When I chatted to him about it I said, you know, ‘What sticks in your mind?’ The first thing he said was, ‘Duisburg. Terrible.’ He said what an awful trip they had.
AC: That’s Duisburg we did in daylight one time.
SB: Right. Yeah.
AC: It was very well protected.
SB: Well, that was more or less what he was saying sort of four years earlier.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Or three years earlier. Yes.
Other: Now, why was that? I mean, you normally always associate most raids with night time but this had changed over had it because of the invasion now had it? It was a different, it was a different story. A different remit now was it?
AC: Yeah.
Other: Right.
AC: I much preferred night flying.
Other: Yes.
AC: Well, I liked night flying. I always did. Couldn’t see so much that’s the thing.
Other: There is a reason for it.
SB: Oh gosh. This, yeah, this Duisburg. Heavy flak encountered.
AC: Yes.
SB: No less than fourteen squadron aircraft were hit. Flak at its worst west of the Rhine. Right [pause] You jettisoned your bombs again. This is Wilhelmshaven. This is your last but one.
AC: Oh yes. Yeah.
SB: Returned on three engines and jettisoned the bombs in the sea off Bridlington.
AC: Yeah. I think they thought I was getting, you know but I wasn’t. I tried to take, I took off three times. I went and the port inner, port engine was yeah port inner it was. Yeah. That was spluttering and blurting it wasn’t firing properly and it was shaking. So I tried three times and then I taxied around again. Took off and it didn’t improve actually [laughs] over the sea. I thought I’m not going all the way with this thing. So we dropped, I think it was the biggest bomb we had was a four thousand pounder and I thought we’ll get rid of that.
SB: Yeah.
AC: We dropped it. Made sure there were no, it was dark but you could see a fisherman away in the distance and we did what we had to do but it was a bit tight in and I reckon every window in Bridlington rattled that night. The lads, the ground crew said its probably they’ve, instead of having new spark plugs I’d been given reconditioned ones and they reckoned they were causing the problem so I felt a bit better than but I think they thought I was getting a bit you know like that because the next op —
SB: Yeah.
AC: We were supposed to be going to —
SB: Hanover.
AC: No. We didn’t even go.
SB: Oh right. Oh, the one. Ok. The one you didn’t go.
AC: Yeah. It was to be me lead the squadron as the senior crew and it was our squadron’s turn to lead 4 Group but it was 4 Group’s turn to lead the whole lot so we would have been number one.
SB: Right at the sharp end.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
AC: And I did wonder whether they thought I, they said, ‘Oh, no. You’re scrubbed.’ And we were, we were tour expired. But I did wonder whether they thought I was getting a bit —
SB: Really? Yeah because you were expecting to go on to do forty before you could be rested.
AC: Yes.
SB: Right. Right. Yeah.
AC: I don’t know whether they checked at forty but there wasn’t so many people you know. Well a lot of people had a lot of trouble I think.
SB: Well, I think well it seemed to change a bit didn’t it? They put it up to forty and then in to 1945 it seemed to go all over the place.
AC: Yeah.
SB: I mean one of the chaps I’ve spoken to in the past was a 100 Group Wellington pilot on 192 Squadron.
AC: Yeah. That’s my late brother flew with them.
SB: Oh really?
AC: For one op before he went to India.
SB: Oh right.
AC: He was with them.
SB: Oh right.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Well, small world. Well, they had to do sixty. Their tour was sixty.
AC: Yeah.
SB: I said to him, ‘Why was that?’ And he said, well, the reason they were told was they weren’t dropping bombs.
AC: Yeah.
SB: They were eavesdropping and so each op only counted as half an op.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Despite the fact they were flying in daylight on their own.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Anyway, so did you, the last one here is Hanover. Recalled sixteen minutes after setting course.
AC: Yes.
SB: Did that count as an op?
AC: No.
SB: It didn’t. No. It was too —
AC: [unclear] no.
SB: That’s right. So at that point then you’re told you were tour exp were you?
AC: Yeah. When we got back.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Ok, so —
AC: But it was, we were pleased and yet you were going to miss it. You had a good crowd.
SB: Right.
AC: Just before that too someone had while we were on holiday, on leave someone had used our aircraft and lost it.
SB: Oh really?
AC: Went around there because they —
SB: No. But I noticed. I noticed the change of aeroplane actually.
AC: Yeah. But I got back off leave and I was walking down the lane. I don’t know if you’ve ever been there to Lissett.
SB: I have.
AC: You know where the Memorial is?
SB: Yes, and it’s a lovely, do you think it’s a good Memorial? I think its lovely.
AC: A [unclear] idea.
SB: Yeah, excellent. Anyway, sorry. Go on.
AC: All of the names are on there out of order.
SB: They are. Yeah.
AC: If you’ve got a name you’ve got to look at them.
SB: Yeah. Anyway, yeah sorry you were saying.
AC: Anyway, I was walking down there because I was billeted down that lane and I looked across and our hardstanding was empty and I thought that’s strange. Anyway, it turns out that, who was the chappie? A New Zealander and he’d already done a tour but he was one of these quiet chaps. You couldn’t get into conversation with him. But they took our aircraft and they got the chop and only one person got out and that was the Belgian navigator. Andre Leleu and he came to the reunions and I said, ‘Oh you’re the bloke that lost our aircraft.’ He said, ‘I’m very sorry.’ And I said, ‘What happened?’ He said, ‘Well —’ I said, ‘How did you get out because the others were —’ It blew up and the others were all gone. He said, ‘Well, it was getting a bit dicey and I thought I’d put my parachute on.’ And he said, literally, he was blown out and it worked.
SB: Good grief.
AC: And he was the sole survivor and of course he came every reunion we had it was with him and his wife. He died last year. But we became great friends actually.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s fascinating.
AC: Because his wife then was quite sweet. She was seventeen and she used to be a messenger for the, what’s the name [pause] not the Germans.
Other: Resistance.
AC: Yeah. The Resistance. She used to have messages stuffed down the frame of her bicycle and things like that.
Other: Oh right. But if he got shot down did he get captured?
AC: Yes.
Other: Ah.
AC: Prisoner of war.
Other: Did he end up being helped back by the Resistance then?
SB: Not if he was captured. No. POW.
Other: Oh, I meant did he manage to get out? Some managed to get out didn’t they?
SB: Very very few.
Other: Very few. Right.
AC: But he was the only survivor of that aircraft.
SB: Right. Right. So then what happened after you left 158?
AC: Well, first of all I was posted to Abingdon.
SB: Right.
AC: 10 OTU. And the first few weeks there was no place for me so I was decorating the, I had a gang of blokes painting the navigation room and it was in a, it was about a four times the size of the house and it was they had on the wall they had a diagram with all little lights that were flying to Germany and all this rubbish. It was terribly old fashioned but they had cabins down this side so you were looking at this. It would be about twenty feet, twenty, thirty feet away looking at the target and it would have the pilot and navigator and wireless operator in this little hut but it was in ever such a state when I flew people, aircrew and they hadn’t done any ops but they were just lost and they, they were doing the painting. There was nothing else to do so we just painted it what colour we wanted it. Well, then I got the flight sergeant moaning about it and Graham [unclear] was, they’d just come from another station on the outskirts of Oxford. I can’t remember the name of the place.
SB: Was that Stanton Harcourt?
AC: That was it. Yes.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Stanton Harcourt.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: There was a hell of a row in the Officer’s Mess. I could hear it. They said, ‘It’s alright. It’s B Flight come back and it was Bob Withers crowd coming in and they were mad. They were a really barmy lot. But they were great fun.
SB: Yeah.
AC: And he was too. But Graham [unclear] he’d always had trouble with his leg.
SB: Yes.
AC: And there was a little boy about four and if we had a do in the Mess because I think Bob, they lived out at the time but if there was a do on in the Mess Graham used to come in our bedrooms and be put to sleep because there was a little cot and we shared it out. Poor little kid.
SB: What did you think about ending up on a Wimpy OTU after, after 158 Squadron? How did that strike you?
AC: I liked them. I liked the Wellingtons and I had a test one day to get my grade up to B to C or something. C to B or something and there was a chap took me from, where was it? Headquarters and the training people. Anyway, an experienced flight lieutenant he was and he taught me things that I never guessed about you know. You never turn into a dead engine. He said that’s a load of rubbish you know and he showed me. You just control it better and of course I liked that. You could turn in on a dead engine and you could do a steep turn on it and so long as you’ve got it together. I used to show off a bit really with a new pupil.
SB: Frightened the life out of them.
AC: Stupid really I suppose but there you go.
SB: Yeah.
AC: But I learned a lot off that man and that put my grade up from a C to a B but to get an A I think you had to go to further expense.
SB: Right.
AC: Training course. But I Abingdon was a very happy station as far as I was concerned. Everyone. They had some marvellous parties and they used to make a pond in the Mess out of an old dinghy you know. A round one.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Goldfish in it. And there was a visiting air vice marshal. His hat went in it. It was a mad place it really was.
Other: It obviously helped to be a bit made did it?
AC: Pardon?
Other: It obviously helped a little bit to be a bit made did it? Yeah.
AC: [laughs] Oh dear.
SB: How long did you stay there for?
AC: Hmmn?
SB: How long did you stay there for?
AC: I think I was there about a year.
SB: Oh right.
AC: I did a course at [pause] near Doncaster.
SB: Finningley.
AC: Finningley.
SB: Finningley.
AC: Finningley. That’s it and I thought you know they were going to have a lot of Halifaxes there because they had Lancasters, Halifaxes and Wellingtons but I suppose they were mostly Wellingtons.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: A rather snotty wing commander took me out on a test because you know Yorkshire in those days you got fog everywhere in no time at all and the place was virtually closed down. But he told me to take it in you know see and I had I’d done a course [unclear] up in Scotland. I was the only one on the course and got above average on the instrument flying there and I liked it but I thought well this chap said take it back, this wingco and it was almost down to the ground and I’d got everything right. The beam, the signals and everything right and he said, ‘You’re too high. Go around again.’ You could see the runway by then whether he had. Twice he made me do it. He said, ‘Well, I’ve only been here a couple of months,’ he said, ‘And I’m sure I could do better than that.’ And he didn’t. He bust it up. He put the brakes on and [unclear] I thought serves you right. Other than that I quite enjoyed that and there’s Wellingtons again. I trained on them and instructed on them. I quite liked them. Of course they were out of date then slightly.
SB: Well, yes. Yes, that’s right.
Other: That’s the one thing I learned when doing the archive material is how much the aircraft was right up front and then suddenly it just stops as being a major operational aircraft the Wellington. It stopped being a major operational one didn’t it?
AC: Yeah.
Other: The Halifaxes and the Lancasters took over.
AC: Yeah.
SB: And after Abingdon then? What happened after your year at Abingdon? Where did you go then?
AC: Where did I go then? [pause] Oh yes. We were sort of surplus to requirement by then and a lot of us got posted. I was posted to [pause] I’m trying to think of the name of the place. It doesn’t matter. It’s like in the Midlands sort of towards Leicester way and we were on Dakotas. Yeah. And I didn’t go solo there because we got ourselves in such hot water my friend and I who I met for the first time after sixty years at the Memorial.
Other: Really?
SB: Oh yes. Gosh. Yeah.
AC: All sorts of trouble and yeah we weren’t getting proper training on these Dakotas but one day I was, I was doing [general] and the instructor had been a pupil at Abingdon when I was there and he lost control and then he stalled it and I was quick [unclear] He said, ‘Oh we’re not supposed to do it like that.’ I thought well I got fed up with this and we didn’t get the hours in because they were short of aircraft and aircraft were not in very good nick. And this other chap and I we asked to be taken off the course. I was interviewed by a group captain who was well known as a twit apparently. I didn’t know at the time but other people and he said, ‘Oh, are you putting yourself before the Service?’ I said, ‘At this stage of my career yes sir.’ And that was a silly thing to say. Of course, we were hot water straight away and we were, just two of us were just the same thing. They’d had so many people asking to be taken off and they’d let them go but I think they’d got into trouble.
SB: Right.
AC: Trouble with higher authorities. So we finished up at [unclear] near Northampton. At some station there and we were, I was assisting a squadron leader in the office and the wingco sat in there. They were all [nervous] people and they had a prisoner of war camp. Germans. And they [unclear] warrant officer from Malta about that high and he ruled them with a rod of iron because they’d come from America these prisoners and they’d had the time of their lives out there and we had a bit over control. And this friend, we got into hot water again. He was posted there too and he because he’d worked in a bank they said he could be in the accounts so [pause] and that was a laugh. Another story. I used to go and visit these prisoners, walk through the cookhouse and they had all got these big soup things and as you went, ‘Achtung,’ and they all stood to attention like that. So my [laughs] my friend and I used to, it was great fun to go through and then come back again and they had, they had kept on talking. It was all a bit of a laugh. And then we were, not long after that we were demobbed.
SB: Yeah.
AC: So —
SB: So that would have been ’46 ’47 would it?
AC: ’46.
SB: ‘46. Yeah. Yeah. And what did you do after the Air Force?
AC: Oh, I went back to my old job with a bloke [unclear] who made instruments.
SB: Oh yes.
AC: And I did a bit there. Then he, he wanted to move away. I didn’t want to go. I got a job at Wembley in engineering, you know. Not much of a job until I [unclear] Rotax. Part of Lucas.
SB: Yes. Where? At Hemel?
AC: No. I went to Hemel but I got a job in there in I did one or two other places but in the drawing office and stayed there for a while. Then we were transferred to Hemel Hempstead.
SB: Right.
AC: And I took a [drawing] office there and —
SB: Well, I spent six years at Lucas at Hemel when I came out the Air Force.
AC: Did you?
SB: Yes. Small world isn’t it?
AC: Yeah. What department were you in?
SB: Oh, I was in the product support department. This is in the late 90s.
AC: Right. In fact, they had meetings. We had lunches out [unclear]
SB: Oh right.
AC: They’d got one at [unclear] coming up but I shan’t go because I don’t know a lot of them. A lot of them come from English Electric.
SB: Oh yes. Yeah.
AC: It was then that put a stamp on me. They didn’t want me as chief draughtsman there and they took someone else and put them in there. It was just shambolic. Anyway, [unclear]
SB: Can we have a look at your logbook please, Aubrey?
AC: Yeah.
[pause]
AC: Royal Canadian Air Force.
SB: Thank you very much. Oh, right. Indeed. Yes. Do you mind if I take some pictures of your book as we go through?
Other: Do you want to do that, Steve? Are you alright or did you want to talk?
SB: Yeah, I’m fine.
Other: Ok.
SB: Take photographs of those as well perhaps.
Other: Is that ok if I take photographs of that?
[[tea talk]]
SB: Let’s have a look. Oh, so you did your flying training in Canada.
AC: Yes.
SB: Right.
Other: Now, what part?
SB: Caron, Saskatchewan.
AC: Caron. It was about twenty miles west, west of Regina.
Other: Saskatchewan. That’s, that’s Indian territory isn’t it? [unclear]
SB: Sergeant Craig your instructor.
AC: Yes. He was a nice guy.
SB: Yeah [pause]
AC: [unclear] I think they used to get prairie madness some of these instructors out there. There was one chap said to me during night flying, ‘Have you ever done any aerobatics at night?’ Like an idiot I said no. I wasn’t keen on aerobatics at the best of times. It wasn’t even moonlight.
SB: Oh gosh. Really?
AC: And the same chap took me on instrument flying one day and I was under the hood and he gave me the course to take. Then he said, ‘Ok. I’ve got it now. You can come out [unclear] prairie where they only thing they grow is corn.
SB: Right.
AC: And there was one house at the side of it and we landed at the back of it and a girl came out to the end of the garden.
SB: Really?
AC: It was a funny place and he said, ‘I left my hat here last night.’ [unclear]
Other: How long were you there in Canada?
AC: I don’t know. You can tell by that.
SB: Yeah. Well, you started your flying training on the 26th of September ’42 and started AFU in, back in England on the 1st of July ’43.
AC: Right.
Other: Did you like it?
SB: Ten months.
AC: Sorry?
Other: Did you like Canada?
AC: Oh yes.
Other: Yeah. Nice people there.
AC: Yeah. Very nice people.
SB: Yeah.
AC: In fact, we went, three of us went to Winnipeg at Christmas and we went to the Airmen’s Club and they said, ‘Well, what you like to do? Would you like to go with a family?’ And we did and this family took us in.
Other: Yes. Very nice people. Yeah.
AC: They took us to a different party every night you know at Christmas for about five days.
Other: Let’s just check I took that last one.
SB: Oh, I found your, the op you went on when you were on the Con Unit.
AC: What?
SB: When you were 1652 HCU.
AC: Yes.
SB: Frankfurt op. That was the one you were talking about. Twenty two aircraft lost.
AC: Yes. I thought it —
SB: Yeah.
AC: I thought it was.
SB: Yeah. That must have been the one you were talking about. Yes. I see you did your OTU at Lossiemouth didn’t you?
AC: Yes.
SB: Yeah. Now, Patrick Moore. He of, “Sky of Night.” “Sky At Night,” fame.
AC: Yes.
SB: Did you know he was, he was an RAF navigator?
AC: Oh, yes. Yes.
SB: And now, the reason I mention this is because he would never say what he did but it’s known he was a navigator and he trained in Canada and he was at 20 OTU Lossiemouth sometime in 1943 and that’s as far as anybody can gauge it. What happened to him after that I don’t know.
AC: We crewed up there.
SB: Right. Yeah.
AC: In this marvellous way of putting you all in a —
SB: Right. Yeah.
AC: It worked.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Except my wireless op went [pause] what’s it called [pause] LMF.
SB: LMF. Really? Yeah.
AC: Yeah.
SB: While you were still at OTU.
AC: Well, he was always drinking with the women of low character [laughs] he was a shocker. Yeah. And we didn’t know anything about it until we were posted from there. Again, that’s when I picked up a spare wireless op at Marston Moor.
SB: Right. And you were after your flight engineer there as well wouldn’t you at HCU? They didn’t go to OTU did they? The flight engineers.
AC: No. That’s right. You’re right. Yeah. Picked him up there. But —
SB: What happened to the rest of your crew when you finished your tour? Do you know? Do you know where they all went?
AC: When we finished our tour my wireless op he wanted to stay on but he, they didn’t take him on but he managed to get a trip in. He flew with a squadron leader then. This chap [pause] the President of the Air Force Association.
SB: Doug Ratcliffe? No.
AC: No. He’s the —
SB: He’s the secretary.
AC: Secretary.
SB: Oh, hang on.
AC: [unclear] of the Royal Air Force.
SB: Yes.
AC: God, I can’t remember it.
Other: Listen to the two of you.
SB: Beetham? Beetham. Michael Beetham.
AC: He was a squadron leader then and my wireless op flew out to India with him and they, he met my brother and they flew out to [unclear] and they didn’t want him in the Air Force so he joined the Army. They jumped at him because the standard of training in the Air Force was much better.
SB: Right.
AC: And he came out a major I think.
SB: Really?
AC: Yeah. He’s still alive. There’s three of us still alive.
SB: Yes.
AC: More or less [laughs] —
SB: Who was the other one? The other ones?
AC: Mid-upper gunner.
[pause]
SB: Yeah.
AC: It’s double sided [laughs] you know that.
Other: Yes. Yes. I keep counting that I’ve done it right. That’s the problem Aubrey I keep thinking to myself have I done twenty three and twenty four.
AC: My late brother did those.
SB: A terrific job. Oh, my tea too. Thank you very much.
[pause]
SB: Oh, here we are. This is the 1381 TCU. I can’t think where that was.
Other: That’s a full logbook.
SB: A beautiful logbook. Yes.
Other: Isn’t it.
AC: Oh crumbs [pause]
SB: If we had the books I could probably tell you but I haven’t. Oh hang on. You never know your luck.
AC: I’ve got a lot of problem with my memory. I’ve had all the tests. They say, ‘No. There’s nothing wrong with you.’ [laughs]
SB: No. It’s not in there.
AC: Oh, that was Marston Moor wasn’t it? Yeah.
SB: Right. Oh right. Ok. Oh, Green Endorsement.
AC: Hmmn?
SB: A Green Endorsement. Good airmanship and the full operational tour has been completed without being involved in any accident.
AC: Oh yes. Nearly.
SB: Well, none that you’d admit to. Now, you got the DFC didn’t you?
AC: Yes.
SB: That was for the tour or for anything in particular?
AC: Nothing in particular I don’t think.
SB: Right.
AC: Not that I told them.
Other: Well, as you say I think I’ve taken one twice Steve just to let you know. Alright.
SB: Oh, I’m always doing that, Dean.
Other: So, rather than lose it I want to make sure you’ve got it.
SB: Now, do you have a photograph of yourself in uniform or better still a photograph and or with your crew at all?
AC: I have one hanging on the wall down here.
SB: Ah, should I follow you?
AC: You can. Or I could bring it in.
[long pause]
Other: Grabbing of the last of the summer.
Other 1: I’ve been reading about it. Yes.
Other: They say it’s going to bad tomorrow don’t they?
[pause]
Other 1: It’s just going for whether a bumper crop of blackberries etcetera means a bleak winter. It does normally doesn’t it?
Other: Oh lots of berries doesn’t it. They say that don’t they?
Other 1: Yes.
Other: Yes. I’ve never seen so many butterflies this year. Not never. It’s a long time since I’ve seen so many butterflies in one year.
Other 1: It is up here saying butterfly conservation saying its good news for butterflies this fine weather because the winter was so bad that they are hibernated late which is why we’ve got more now.
Other: Oh right. Well, it’s funny because I did notice it this year. I love butterflies. I think they’re fantastic.
Other 1: You’ve got butterfly plants in your garden.
Other: Yes. Yes. We’ve got them specially in this year because we wanted well as everybody does nothing beats lavender.
Other 1: Yes.
Other: [unclear] is great.
Other 1: Yes, we have lavender out the front and it was absolutely covered in bees but we didn’t see any butterflies.
Other: You didn’t have any butterflies.
Other 1: Near where we are there is a Wrest Park which is English Heritage property and they had a whole bunch of lavenders. Lavender plants there. I’ve never seen anything like it. There were bees, butterflies, White, Red Admirals everything going on. It was absolutely totally and utterly full and because there was a whole batch of them it looked like a swarm. I can’t remember that ever.
Other: There is a butterfly farm [unclear]
Other 1: There is at St Albans.
Other: Yes.
Other 1: Jolly pretty little place.
Other: I’ve never been there.
Other 1: Oh, it’s worth going. Oh, it is worth going. Seriously. Make sure you take your good camera with you.
Other: [unclear – lots of overtalking each other]
Other 1: I said what do we do? She said, ‘Well, you can hold insects in your hand.’ I thought well yeah twenty seven pounds just to do that.
Other: That’s a lot of money.
Other 1: But it’s obviously got more than that.
Other: They’ve been expanding it and we went two years ago so I would imagine. It’s quite pleasant in its own way.
Other 1: You would say it’s worth it.
Other: Yes. Not if you’re going to come and hit me over the head and say, ‘I’ve paid twenty seven pounds for that.’ The thing, the thing I would say though is that the butterflies are stunning and then pretty well just opposite that is the Insect House which I thought I wouldn’t be interested in.
SB: Who are they? Who are they all? It’s fascinating. That’s absolutely fascinating.
Other: They’ve got a piece of rope that runs across and they look like little stick insects and they’re carrying logs behind them and taking them to their nest and it’s like a motorway. They’re going past each other and then back on there. It’s fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.
Other 1: Have you seen the ants on television?
Other: Absolutely like that. But twenty seven pounds each.
Other 1: [unclear]
Other: They’ve got quite a nice place to have something to eat.
Other 1: [unclear]
Other: Yeah. It is. I’m going to stick my neck out and say yes. I think it is. I mean as you say the grandchildren are twenty odd now.
Other 1: Yes.
Other: You just get such fantastic photographs from it.
Other 1: Oh well.
Other: And they will land on you. They will land on your hand.
Other 1: She said, ‘Oh yes, you can hold the insects,’ it didn’t sound terribly thrilling.
Other: Well, I’ll go with that.
Other 1: It’s obviously more geared to younger children.
Other: And I would say that’s right. That’s why I said about the twenty years old. If you said about your grandchildren. But just for yourselves it’s very impressive. I went along thinking you know I’m not really sure about this but I came away impressed.
Other 1: My eldest son he thinks since we’ve moved he thinks we might worry about moving. We moved two and a half years ago.
Other: Where from?
Other 1: Frinton on Sea.
Other: Oh, did you? That’s quite a difference.
SB: I’m afraid the last photograph I have to take is you. You’re fine where you are Aubrey. You’re fine where you are.
Other 1: When Aubrey retired we moved and I’m eighty six, he’s nearly ninety one and it was getting a distance for the boys to come down.
SB: One for luck.
[pause]
SB: Thank you very much.
Other 1: And so we thought well we’re not going to live forever we’ll come up here —
AC: Yeah. Yes. That is about right. I’m just trying to think where I started then.
SB: Well, according to the list I’ve got—
AC: I’ve got my logbook.
SB: Oh well, we’ll have a look at that later. But yes so I was he was very keen on 158. He was, just a little story about him just to sort of set the scene. The sort of thing I’ve been doing. He was a w/op a.g.
AC: Yeah.
SB: And he started his tour on 158 in about the time you left. October, November ’44. He was shot down on his twelfth op on the way into Hanover in January ’45.
AC: That’s carelessness isn’t it.
SB: Very careless [laughs] I know. Unforgivable really. He went on the run, was captured after about nine days and a few years ago now I found out who shot him down who is still alive and I took him out to Germany and they had a few days together and got on like a house on fire. But anyway that’s another story. So I’m just as interested in Halifax stuff as well. So perhaps we could start with that can we Aubrey and just chat about it really.
AC: Yes. I’ve got one or two bits of paper that might help.
SB: Yeah. By all means. Yes and a logbook is always a good thing to be able to look at.
[pause]
SB: A nice little fire guard isn’t it?
Other: It’s very nice actually. Very nice indeed.
AC: Logbook
SB: Ok.
AC: My late brother who was a wireless op and he was a special operator.
SB: Ah.
AC: Going out and picking up, you know details of all the [pause] he got sent to India and two of them were doing this job and they used to, their average sort of flying time was about fifteen hours and he used to fly right over Japan. And the other crew that were doing the job were shot down and they were all captured and they were all beheaded.
SB: Oh gosh. Golly.
AC: And I knew the chap because, the operator because my brother brought him home before they flew out by Sunderlands.
SB: Oh right.
AC: Out to the Far East.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: And there was one chap because the Japanese, and they had about three people who were wireless operators and there was one chap was particularly tortured and he didn’t give the game away. He got a George Cross later but he was killed and they beheaded the lot.
SB: Oh God. Good God.
AC: So they never did find out who it was but —
SB: Oh dear me.
AC: I’d never buy a Japanese car there.
SB: Oh, well. I can understand that.
AC: That is —
Other: I knew somebody else you used to say that.
SB: So these are your ops or —
AC: Yes. It started.
SB: Right. I see you there.
AC: Yes. And —
SB: So 10th and 11th of May Lens Marshalling Yards.
AC: Yeah.
SB: The first one.
AC: And it gives the results of every op.
SB: Ok. Just, just before we delve into these taking a bit of a step back where did you do your OTU? HCU rather.
AC: Marston Moor.
SB: Oh right. Ok.
AC: And as we arrived some Irish, I don’t know, a corporal took us to our billets and he said, ‘Ah you’re just too late to see Group Captain Cheshire.’ He’s a marvellous man. He used to go out and play cards with the ground crew and out in the sticks, you know. They really idolised him which —
SB: Yeah.
Other: He did how many?
SB: Cheshire? I don’t know. He did about —
Other: A hundred wasn’t it?
SB: Something like that. He did an awful lot of ops.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Yes. That’s right. So, Lens Marshalling Yards.
AC: That’s the first and then they carry on.
SB: I see.
AC: In order.
SB: Right. Then of course this is building up for D-Day isn’t it?
AC: Yes.
SB: So there were lots of marshalling yards, railway yards.
AC: Yes.
SB: And those sorts of things. Yeah.
AC: I did one trip. I don’t know if it’s on there. My first op was to Stuttgart.
SB: Oh right.
AC: I went to 640 Squadron which was an offset of 158.
SB: Right.
AC: And the, what was it? Yes, it was Stuttgart. We were just taken for experience. There were two of us went up there and there were twenty two aircraft lost that night and I was sat there petrified and I was counting them and they were going down in front of us.
SB: Really. Wow. God.
AC: And in the middle of it there was a [whoof] and a single engine aircraft shot across from about the height of this room away [laughs] Made me jump.
SB: God.
AC: The bloke said, ‘Keep your bloody eyes open.’ And I thought well he didn’t see it.
SB: So you were acting as second, second dickie then were you?
AC: Yes.
SB: On that trip. Yeah. Ok. Well, you must, what must have gone through your head? This is your first. Your first op. You must have thought —
AC: I [unclear]
SB: That’s an understatement isn’t it?
AC: Mind you it’s different when you’re doing the job yourself I think.
SB: I imagine so. Yes. So then what have we got? Marshalling yards again.
AC: So I was much more relaxed with the last pilot.
Other: Relaxed.
AC: Yeah.
Other: Is there such a word?
AC: What?
Other: Is there such a word when you are doing that? Relaxed.
AC: Yes. There is.
Other: Yeah.
SB: Now I notice there that there’s one that you are probably glad you missed actually because I was looking it up yesterday having seen when you were on the squadron.
AC: Yes.
SB: The squadron had a really bad night on the 24th 25th of May to Aachen and you lost five aircraft that night.
AC: Yes. But were they all over the target? I don’t think they were.
SB: No. They weren’t all lost over the target. No.
AC: No.
SB: But that must have been a pretty tough time.
AC: Yeah.
SB: For the squadron.
AC: Well, we had one op. We were going to do a daylight. I’ve forgotten where it was now but we had what they, what they used to call the fog up there you know. They had a name for it in Yorkshire. It was about two hundred feet up and almost to the ground and we were taking off in this and then we had to formate with the rest of 4 Group over Filey [pause] Flamborough Head. The chap who took off in front of me was a French-Canadian, a funny little chap and I don’t think he could reach the pedals too much [laughs] He was having trouble and he must have lost control and they went straight into the beach at [Bridlington] and great flames coming out through this fog. I thought well I’m not going down through that. I flew around the top until we were all clued up and I was telling another chap about it afterwards and he said, ‘It’s alright,’ he said, ‘I was following you?’ And and then another night an American pilot we had, a quiet chap he crashed in front of me coming into land in a village near Foston on the Wolds I think it was.
SB: Oh right.
AC: Somewhere up near Bridlington and I think two [pause] two were killed straight away, two died that night, and he died. So they were all wiped. And they went between cottages. No one was hurt on the ground and hit a barn opposite and no civilians were hurt. It was only us —
SB: Goodness me.
AC: Getting off. Sorry I’m —
SB: No. That’s absolutely fine, Aubrey. You carry on. Well, this sounds like quite an interesting, I’m sure they were all interesting in their own way.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Sterkrade oil plant. 16th 17th of June.
AC: Oh right.
SB: Quite a busy time with night fighters it would seem on that particular occasion.
AC: Well, we didn’t have much problems with them because I had a good crew there’s no doubt about it. But the wireless op he was a star. He went on. He flew with the chap who was the head of [pause] what was his name. He was a squadron leader then and he he was head of the Air Force and he’s now head of group, well — [pause] at Hendon.
SB: Oh. The Bomber Command Association you mean?
AC: Yes. Yes.
SB: Yeah.
Other: You’re both doing it now.
SB: Yeah [laughs] Yes. We both know who we mean but we’ll come, it will come to one of us.
Other: On this occasion tell me.
SB: Yeah, we will. Yeah.
AC: My wireless op, [unclear] his name was he was a wireless op at the end of the war.
SB: Right.
AC: But when he flew with us he was a funny bloke to get on but he was first class and he, one night he was upgrading the offshoot of the, oh crumbs my memory. [pause] The navigator had this. Oh, crumbs what is it?
SB: Gee. H2S.
AC: H2S.
SB: H2S.
AC: But you could have an offshoot of that. It was called Fishpond.
SB: Fishpond.
AC: Fishpond.
SB: Yeah.
AC: And my wireless op was working that and he said we were being followed and for about a good half hour we were being followed. Everything I did you know rolled it all over the shop he still followed us.
SB: Right.
AC: And then out of the blue he said, ‘Oh. He’s turned around and gone back.’ And this thing about that size and that night, a great friend of mine we got the chop on the same, the same bit. He really earned his keep that night.
SB: Gosh. Fishpond came after Monica.
Other: Oh right. What you were telling me about.
SB: Monica they had to stop using because the Germans could follow it.
Other: At the back of a Lanc.
SB: That’s right.
Other: Yeah.
SB: But Fishpond sort of came after that and it was passive so they couldn’t.
AC: Well, they must have you know I suppose it wasn’t much better than the other really because they were picking it up.
SB: Well, yeah. That’s right. because what they hadn’t well what we hadn’t realised was we only discovered as I’m sure you know of course you know you were there we only discovered that the Germans could pick up the transmissions from Monica —
AC: Yeah.
SB: When a Junkers 88 defected.
AC: Yeah.
SB: And we flew it and oh yes they can pick us up. So then we brought out Fishpond which we thought was secure against the radar in the 88. In the meantime they’d put on Naxos radar which could pick up Fishpond.
AC: Yeah.
SB: They were always trying to keep on step ahead.
AC: Yes.
SB: Of each other all the time wasn’t it?
Other: Was that what happened to the Junkers? The guy defected.
SB: Yeah. Well, he said he was lost but the thinking is he actually defected. These are quite interesting. You got Wizernes which was the V-2 factory wasn’t it?
AC: Yes. That was a daylight.
SB: A daylight, yes. 07.00. Judged to be a very attack against negligible opposition. Crews did report pinky red flak bursting amongst the usual black stuff. Different.
Other: What was that?
SB: I don’t know. I don’t know [unclear]
Other: Another book for you.
SB: Please [pause] I see the same Lancaster is tending to crop up for you each time now. Did you, did you tend to fly the same aeroplane once you started? Once you got into your tour? I see HX329.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Crops up almost every time now.
AC: Yeah.
SB: That would be your Halifax.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
AC: But [unclear]
SB: Yes. Yes.
AC: At that time.
SB: Yeah. You did thirty seven altogether. Is that right?
AC: Yes.
SB: How did that happen then?
AC: Well, they were supposed to be. They put us up to forty at that time.
Other: Really?
AC: Yeah.
Other: It was thirty wasn’t it?
SB: Originally thirty.
AC: Of course it was easier for some other poor devils but it didn’t work really because that night I’m talking about with the old Fishpond another chap a friend of mine, he was a policeman, an ex-policemen. He seemed too gentle to be a policeman but he was. He was lost that night in about the same spot.
SB: Right.
AC: In the middle.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: He never reached forty two and they chopped it back then.
SB: Now, this sounds interesting. You’ve got to talk. You’ve got to tell me about this one. 20th 21st of July Ardouval. And it says here due to the very severe turbulence of the storm over the Channel, due to very severe turbulence some pilots reported temporary loss of control of their aircraft and you couldn’t hear the master bomber. And against you it says did not carry out. Jettisoned part of load and returned to base with eight left in the bomb bay.
AC: Yes.
SB: Tell me about then. That one then. That sounds pretty —
AC: Nothing really. It was called off I think and we hadn’t dropped them so, but I don’t think if it had been over the enemy with no conscience we’d have let them out but I can’t remember the circumstances there and then. Another, my second op we, we joined what we thought was a circuit and all the talk was right but we landed at the wrong aerodrome.
SB: Oh really.
AC: Fortunately, a senior crew of our squadron did the same thing that night.
SB: Oh right. Right.
AC: We didn’t stay long [laughs] we —
Other: Where was the base?
AC: I’m trying to think of it.
SB: Lissett.
Other: Lissett.
SB: Lissett in Yorkshire. Your base was Lissett.
AC: I’m trying to think of this other place just down the road.
Other: How many were in that? This must have been a few.
SB: Yes. Well there were a lot of bases quite close to each other weren’t there? So it must have been —
AC: Oh yes.
SB: Quite easy.
AC: Certainly in that part of Yorkshire.
SB: Yes.
AC: Yeah.
Other: Yes.
AC: I think they probably had more than well I suppose Lincolnshire had loads.
Other: Right up there.
AC: Yeah.
Other: Yeah.
AC: Above us North Yorkshire the Canadians were there.
SB: Yes. Yeah.
AC: We had such a mixture of people. It was quite interesting really you know. Canadians as well. Americans. One or two. One of the Americans they were asked for the chance to join the US Air Force because they got three times as much pay and we had flight sergeant who did. He took it up. But the one I was talking to he was only, really only a flying officer and he had paid for his own flying lessons when he was at college in America and he said, ‘I’m not going.’ He said, ‘I joined this to join the Air Force. The Royal Air Force. And I like it and I wouldn’t go.’
Other: I guess by then there was with the American guys in there as well there must have been quite a settled atmosphere.
AC: Yes.
Other: You don’t really want to go do you?
AC: No.
Other: You know who you are don’t you?
SB: Yeah.
SB: 2nd of August [Le Havre] and I’ve got it against you it’s got hit by flak over the target.
AC: Yeah. It wasn’t much.
SB: No.
AC: No. Actually we were a bit struggling from bombs dropping from the top.
SB: Yeah.
AC: The wireless. One hit the flight engineer and one bit hit the bomb aimer. [unclear]
SB: Yes.
AC: And there was a terrible smell drifted back. It was the bomb aimer and he said, ‘I shit myself gentleman.’ And he had. Oh dear.
SB: Oh dear.
AC: There was always something to laugh at.
Other: I don’t know how you’d deal with that [unclear] Oh dear.
AC: The ground crew put a bit of it. The flight engineer had it had put a patch [unclear]
SB: More excitement on the Brunswick trip I see. Hit by flak again whilst over the target area.
AC: That was the Brunswick one.
SB: That was. Right.
AC: Yeah.
SB: You’d got a thousand pound hung up.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Eventually jettisoned over the sea.
AC: The flight engineer was supposed to check and he’d missed it. Hang ups. Dropped it.
Other: We were just talking about loads that wouldn’t drop when we were at RAF Hendon this morning just you couldn’t get through could you to do anything. If it had stuck —
AC: Yeah.
Other: It was stuck wasn’t it?
AC: Yeah.
Other: A bit nerve wracking.
AC: I think Americans must have been a bit more disciplined in daylight. We didn’t see day much.
SB: Really?
AC: I mean once we’d led the squadron for one operation in daylight it was [unclear] sometimes and everyone was getting past me as we got nearer the target. No discipline at all.
Other: That’s a lot of work.
SB: It is a lot of work. Yes. Yes. Fascinating actually. Ah, now what does [pause] we’ve got one here Bottrop. September.
AC: Bottrop.
SB: Only one squadron could identify the target and in general the entire attack was spasmodic and scattered. Inaccurate flak. Master bomber heard calling sour grapes.
AC: Yeah.
SB: So what was the meaning of sour grapes?
AC: I’ve forgotten. I don’t. I don’t remember. I don’t remember hearing it anyway.
SB: Oh right.
AC: But it must have been clear off. Stop.
SB: Because it sounds as though, ‘It’s all gone pear shaped chaps. Let’s go home.’ Yeah.
AC: That’s, it’s a trick to get my memory back after a while.
SB: Well, it’s a long time ago isn’t it but [pause] oh Duisburg. A friend of mine, sadly no longer with us was a Hampden wireless operator. He did his, he did a full tour on Hampdens. A lucky chap. A very lucky chap.
AC: Yes.
SB: When I chatted to him about it I said, you know, ‘What sticks in your mind?’ The first thing he said was, ‘Duisburg. Terrible.’ He said what an awful trip they had.
AC: That’s Duisburg we did in daylight one time.
SB: Right. Yeah.
AC: It was very well protected.
SB: Well, that was more or less what he was saying sort of four years earlier.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Or three years earlier. Yes.
Other: Now, why was that? I mean, you normally always associate most raids with night time but this had changed over had it because of the invasion now had it? It was a different, it was a different story. A different remit now was it?
AC: Yeah.
Other: Right.
AC: I much preferred night flying.
Other: Yes.
AC: Well, I liked night flying. I always did. Couldn’t see so much that’s the thing.
Other: There is a reason for it.
SB: Oh gosh. This, yeah, this Duisburg. Heavy flak encountered.
AC: Yes.
SB: No less than fourteen squadron aircraft were hit. Flak at its worst west of the Rhine. Right [pause] You jettisoned your bombs again. This is Wilhelmshaven. This is your last but one.
AC: Oh yes. Yeah.
SB: Returned on three engines and jettisoned the bombs in the sea off Bridlington.
AC: Yeah. I think they thought I was getting, you know but I wasn’t. I tried to take, I took off three times. I went and the port inner, port engine was yeah port inner it was. Yeah. That was spluttering and blurting it wasn’t firing properly and it was shaking. So I tried three times and then I taxied around again. Took off and it didn’t improve actually [laughs] over the sea. I thought I’m not going all the way with this thing. So we dropped, I think it was the biggest bomb we had was a four thousand pounder and I thought we’ll get rid of that.
SB: Yeah.
AC: We dropped it. Made sure there were no, it was dark but you could see a fisherman away in the distance and we did what we had to do but it was a bit tight in and I reckon every window in Bridlington rattled that night. The lads, the ground crew said its probably they’ve, instead of having new spark plugs I’d been given reconditioned ones and they reckoned they were causing the problem so I felt a bit better than but I think they thought I was getting a bit you know like that because the next op —
SB: Yeah.
AC: We were supposed to be going to —
SB: Hanover.
AC: No. We didn’t even go.
SB: Oh right. Oh, the one. Ok. The one you didn’t go.
AC: Yeah. It was to be me lead the squadron as the senior crew and it was our squadron’s turn to lead 4 Group but it was 4 Group’s turn to lead the whole lot so we would have been number one.
SB: Right at the sharp end.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Yeah.
AC: And I did wonder whether they thought I, they said, ‘Oh, no. You’re scrubbed.’ And we were, we were tour expired. But I did wonder whether they thought I was getting a bit —
SB: Really? Yeah because you were expecting to go on to do forty before you could be rested.
AC: Yes.
SB: Right. Right. Yeah.
AC: I don’t know whether they checked at forty but there wasn’t so many people you know. Well a lot of people had a lot of trouble I think.
SB: Well, I think well it seemed to change a bit didn’t it? They put it up to forty and then in to 1945 it seemed to go all over the place.
AC: Yeah.
SB: I mean one of the chaps I’ve spoken to in the past was a 100 Group Wellington pilot on 192 Squadron.
AC: Yeah. That’s my late brother flew with them.
SB: Oh really?
AC: For one op before he went to India.
SB: Oh right.
AC: He was with them.
SB: Oh right.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Well, small world. Well, they had to do sixty. Their tour was sixty.
AC: Yeah.
SB: I said to him, ‘Why was that?’ And he said, well, the reason they were told was they weren’t dropping bombs.
AC: Yeah.
SB: They were eavesdropping and so each op only counted as half an op.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Despite the fact they were flying in daylight on their own.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Yeah. Anyway, so did you, the last one here is Hanover. Recalled sixteen minutes after setting course.
AC: Yes.
SB: Did that count as an op?
AC: No.
SB: It didn’t. No. It was too —
AC: [unclear] no.
SB: That’s right. So at that point then you’re told you were tour exp were you?
AC: Yeah. When we got back.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: Yeah.
SB: Ok, so —
AC: But it was, we were pleased and yet you were going to miss it. You had a good crowd.
SB: Right.
AC: Just before that too someone had while we were on holiday, on leave someone had used our aircraft and lost it.
SB: Oh really?
AC: Went around there because they —
SB: No. But I noticed. I noticed the change of aeroplane actually.
AC: Yeah. But I got back off leave and I was walking down the lane. I don’t know if you’ve ever been there to Lissett.
SB: I have.
AC: You know where the Memorial is?
SB: Yes, and it’s a lovely, do you think it’s a good Memorial? I think its lovely.
AC: A [unclear] idea.
SB: Yeah, excellent. Anyway, sorry. Go on.
AC: All of the names are on there out of order.
SB: They are. Yeah.
AC: If you’ve got a name you’ve got to look at them.
SB: Yeah. Anyway, yeah sorry you were saying.
AC: Anyway, I was walking down there because I was billeted down that lane and I looked across and our hardstanding was empty and I thought that’s strange. Anyway, it turns out that, who was the chappie? A New Zealander and he’d already done a tour but he was one of these quiet chaps. You couldn’t get into conversation with him. But they took our aircraft and they got the chop and only one person got out and that was the Belgian navigator. Andre Leleu and he came to the reunions and I said, ‘Oh you’re the bloke that lost our aircraft.’ He said, ‘I’m very sorry.’ And I said, ‘What happened?’ He said, ‘Well —’ I said, ‘How did you get out because the others were —’ It blew up and the others were all gone. He said, ‘Well, it was getting a bit dicey and I thought I’d put my parachute on.’ And he said, literally, he was blown out and it worked.
SB: Good grief.
AC: And he was the sole survivor and of course he came every reunion we had it was with him and his wife. He died last year. But we became great friends actually.
SB: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s fascinating.
AC: Because his wife then was quite sweet. She was seventeen and she used to be a messenger for the, what’s the name [pause] not the Germans.
Other: Resistance.
AC: Yeah. The Resistance. She used to have messages stuffed down the frame of her bicycle and things like that.
Other: Oh right. But if he got shot down did he get captured?
AC: Yes.
Other: Ah.
AC: Prisoner of war.
Other: Did he end up being helped back by the Resistance then?
SB: Not if he was captured. No. POW.
Other: Oh, I meant did he manage to get out? Some managed to get out didn’t they?
SB: Very very few.
Other: Very few. Right.
AC: But he was the only survivor of that aircraft.
SB: Right. Right. So then what happened after you left 158?
AC: Well, first of all I was posted to Abingdon.
SB: Right.
AC: 10 OTU. And the first few weeks there was no place for me so I was decorating the, I had a gang of blokes painting the navigation room and it was in a, it was about a four times the size of the house and it was they had on the wall they had a diagram with all little lights that were flying to Germany and all this rubbish. It was terribly old fashioned but they had cabins down this side so you were looking at this. It would be about twenty feet, twenty, thirty feet away looking at the target and it would have the pilot and navigator and wireless operator in this little hut but it was in ever such a state when I flew people, aircrew and they hadn’t done any ops but they were just lost and they, they were doing the painting. There was nothing else to do so we just painted it what colour we wanted it. Well, then I got the flight sergeant moaning about it and Graham [unclear] was, they’d just come from another station on the outskirts of Oxford. I can’t remember the name of the place.
SB: Was that Stanton Harcourt?
AC: That was it. Yes.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Yes.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Stanton Harcourt.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: There was a hell of a row in the Officer’s Mess. I could hear it. They said, ‘It’s alright. It’s B Flight come back and it was Bob Withers crowd coming in and they were mad. They were a really barmy lot. But they were great fun.
SB: Yeah.
AC: And he was too. But Graham [unclear] he’d always had trouble with his leg.
SB: Yes.
AC: And there was a little boy about four and if we had a do in the Mess because I think Bob, they lived out at the time but if there was a do on in the Mess Graham used to come in our bedrooms and be put to sleep because there was a little cot and we shared it out. Poor little kid.
SB: What did you think about ending up on a Wimpy OTU after, after 158 Squadron? How did that strike you?
AC: I liked them. I liked the Wellingtons and I had a test one day to get my grade up to B to C or something. C to B or something and there was a chap took me from, where was it? Headquarters and the training people. Anyway, an experienced flight lieutenant he was and he taught me things that I never guessed about you know. You never turn into a dead engine. He said that’s a load of rubbish you know and he showed me. You just control it better and of course I liked that. You could turn in on a dead engine and you could do a steep turn on it and so long as you’ve got it together. I used to show off a bit really with a new pupil.
SB: Frightened the life out of them.
AC: Stupid really I suppose but there you go.
SB: Yeah.
AC: But I learned a lot off that man and that put my grade up from a C to a B but to get an A I think you had to go to further expense.
SB: Right.
AC: Training course. But I Abingdon was a very happy station as far as I was concerned. Everyone. They had some marvellous parties and they used to make a pond in the Mess out of an old dinghy you know. A round one.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Goldfish in it. And there was a visiting air vice marshal. His hat went in it. It was a mad place it really was.
Other: It obviously helped to be a bit made did it?
AC: Pardon?
Other: It obviously helped a little bit to be a bit made did it? Yeah.
AC: [laughs] Oh dear.
SB: How long did you stay there for?
AC: Hmmn?
SB: How long did you stay there for?
AC: I think I was there about a year.
SB: Oh right.
AC: I did a course at [pause] near Doncaster.
SB: Finningley.
AC: Finningley.
SB: Finningley.
AC: Finningley. That’s it and I thought you know they were going to have a lot of Halifaxes there because they had Lancasters, Halifaxes and Wellingtons but I suppose they were mostly Wellingtons.
SB: Right. Right.
AC: A rather snotty wing commander took me out on a test because you know Yorkshire in those days you got fog everywhere in no time at all and the place was virtually closed down. But he told me to take it in you know see and I had I’d done a course [unclear] up in Scotland. I was the only one on the course and got above average on the instrument flying there and I liked it but I thought well this chap said take it back, this wingco and it was almost down to the ground and I’d got everything right. The beam, the signals and everything right and he said, ‘You’re too high. Go around again.’ You could see the runway by then whether he had. Twice he made me do it. He said, ‘Well, I’ve only been here a couple of months,’ he said, ‘And I’m sure I could do better than that.’ And he didn’t. He bust it up. He put the brakes on and [unclear] I thought serves you right. Other than that I quite enjoyed that and there’s Wellingtons again. I trained on them and instructed on them. I quite liked them. Of course they were out of date then slightly.
SB: Well, yes. Yes, that’s right.
Other: That’s the one thing I learned when doing the archive material is how much the aircraft was right up front and then suddenly it just stops as being a major operational aircraft the Wellington. It stopped being a major operational one didn’t it?
AC: Yeah.
Other: The Halifaxes and the Lancasters took over.
AC: Yeah.
SB: And after Abingdon then? What happened after your year at Abingdon? Where did you go then?
AC: Where did I go then? [pause] Oh yes. We were sort of surplus to requirement by then and a lot of us got posted. I was posted to [pause] I’m trying to think of the name of the place. It doesn’t matter. It’s like in the Midlands sort of towards Leicester way and we were on Dakotas. Yeah. And I didn’t go solo there because we got ourselves in such hot water my friend and I who I met for the first time after sixty years at the Memorial.
Other: Really?
SB: Oh yes. Gosh. Yeah.
AC: All sorts of trouble and yeah we weren’t getting proper training on these Dakotas but one day I was, I was doing [general] and the instructor had been a pupil at Abingdon when I was there and he lost control and then he stalled it and I was quick [unclear] He said, ‘Oh we’re not supposed to do it like that.’ I thought well I got fed up with this and we didn’t get the hours in because they were short of aircraft and aircraft were not in very good nick. And this other chap and I we asked to be taken off the course. I was interviewed by a group captain who was well known as a twit apparently. I didn’t know at the time but other people and he said, ‘Oh, are you putting yourself before the Service?’ I said, ‘At this stage of my career yes sir.’ And that was a silly thing to say. Of course, we were hot water straight away and we were, just two of us were just the same thing. They’d had so many people asking to be taken off and they’d let them go but I think they’d got into trouble.
SB: Right.
AC: Trouble with higher authorities. So we finished up at [unclear] near Northampton. At some station there and we were, I was assisting a squadron leader in the office and the wingco sat in there. They were all [nervous] people and they had a prisoner of war camp. Germans. And they [unclear] warrant officer from Malta about that high and he ruled them with a rod of iron because they’d come from America these prisoners and they’d had the time of their lives out there and we had a bit over control. And this friend, we got into hot water again. He was posted there too and he because he’d worked in a bank they said he could be in the accounts so [pause] and that was a laugh. Another story. I used to go and visit these prisoners, walk through the cookhouse and they had all got these big soup things and as you went, ‘Achtung,’ and they all stood to attention like that. So my [laughs] my friend and I used to, it was great fun to go through and then come back again and they had, they had kept on talking. It was all a bit of a laugh. And then we were, not long after that we were demobbed.
SB: Yeah.
AC: So —
SB: So that would have been ’46 ’47 would it?
AC: ’46.
SB: ‘46. Yeah. Yeah. And what did you do after the Air Force?
AC: Oh, I went back to my old job with a bloke [unclear] who made instruments.
SB: Oh yes.
AC: And I did a bit there. Then he, he wanted to move away. I didn’t want to go. I got a job at Wembley in engineering, you know. Not much of a job until I [unclear] Rotax. Part of Lucas.
SB: Yes. Where? At Hemel?
AC: No. I went to Hemel but I got a job in there in I did one or two other places but in the drawing office and stayed there for a while. Then we were transferred to Hemel Hempstead.
SB: Right.
AC: And I took a [drawing] office there and —
SB: Well, I spent six years at Lucas at Hemel when I came out the Air Force.
AC: Did you?
SB: Yes. Small world isn’t it?
AC: Yeah. What department were you in?
SB: Oh, I was in the product support department. This is in the late 90s.
AC: Right. In fact, they had meetings. We had lunches out [unclear]
SB: Oh right.
AC: They’d got one at [unclear] coming up but I shan’t go because I don’t know a lot of them. A lot of them come from English Electric.
SB: Oh yes. Yeah.
AC: It was then that put a stamp on me. They didn’t want me as chief draughtsman there and they took someone else and put them in there. It was just shambolic. Anyway, [unclear]
SB: Can we have a look at your logbook please, Aubrey?
AC: Yeah.
[pause]
AC: Royal Canadian Air Force.
SB: Thank you very much. Oh, right. Indeed. Yes. Do you mind if I take some pictures of your book as we go through?
Other: Do you want to do that, Steve? Are you alright or did you want to talk?
SB: Yeah, I’m fine.
Other: Ok.
SB: Take photographs of those as well perhaps.
Other: Is that ok if I take photographs of that?
[[tea talk]]
SB: Let’s have a look. Oh, so you did your flying training in Canada.
AC: Yes.
SB: Right.
Other: Now, what part?
SB: Caron, Saskatchewan.
AC: Caron. It was about twenty miles west, west of Regina.
Other: Saskatchewan. That’s, that’s Indian territory isn’t it? [unclear]
SB: Sergeant Craig your instructor.
AC: Yes. He was a nice guy.
SB: Yeah [pause]
AC: [unclear] I think they used to get prairie madness some of these instructors out there. There was one chap said to me during night flying, ‘Have you ever done any aerobatics at night?’ Like an idiot I said no. I wasn’t keen on aerobatics at the best of times. It wasn’t even moonlight.
SB: Oh gosh. Really?
AC: And the same chap took me on instrument flying one day and I was under the hood and he gave me the course to take. Then he said, ‘Ok. I’ve got it now. You can come out [unclear] prairie where they only thing they grow is corn.
SB: Right.
AC: And there was one house at the side of it and we landed at the back of it and a girl came out to the end of the garden.
SB: Really?
AC: It was a funny place and he said, ‘I left my hat here last night.’ [unclear]
Other: How long were you there in Canada?
AC: I don’t know. You can tell by that.
SB: Yeah. Well, you started your flying training on the 26th of September ’42 and started AFU in, back in England on the 1st of July ’43.
AC: Right.
Other: Did you like it?
SB: Ten months.
AC: Sorry?
Other: Did you like Canada?
AC: Oh yes.
Other: Yeah. Nice people there.
AC: Yeah. Very nice people.
SB: Yeah.
AC: In fact, we went, three of us went to Winnipeg at Christmas and we went to the Airmen’s Club and they said, ‘Well, what you like to do? Would you like to go with a family?’ And we did and this family took us in.
Other: Yes. Very nice people. Yeah.
AC: They took us to a different party every night you know at Christmas for about five days.
Other: Let’s just check I took that last one.
SB: Oh, I found your, the op you went on when you were on the Con Unit.
AC: What?
SB: When you were 1652 HCU.
AC: Yes.
SB: Frankfurt op. That was the one you were talking about. Twenty two aircraft lost.
AC: Yes. I thought it —
SB: Yeah.
AC: I thought it was.
SB: Yeah. That must have been the one you were talking about. Yes. I see you did your OTU at Lossiemouth didn’t you?
AC: Yes.
SB: Yeah. Now, Patrick Moore. He of, “Sky of Night.” “Sky At Night,” fame.
AC: Yes.
SB: Did you know he was, he was an RAF navigator?
AC: Oh, yes. Yes.
SB: And now, the reason I mention this is because he would never say what he did but it’s known he was a navigator and he trained in Canada and he was at 20 OTU Lossiemouth sometime in 1943 and that’s as far as anybody can gauge it. What happened to him after that I don’t know.
AC: We crewed up there.
SB: Right. Yeah.
AC: In this marvellous way of putting you all in a —
SB: Right. Yeah.
AC: It worked.
SB: Yeah.
AC: Except my wireless op went [pause] what’s it called [pause] LMF.
SB: LMF. Really? Yeah.
AC: Yeah.
SB: While you were still at OTU.
AC: Well, he was always drinking with the women of low character [laughs] he was a shocker. Yeah. And we didn’t know anything about it until we were posted from there. Again, that’s when I picked up a spare wireless op at Marston Moor.
SB: Right. And you were after your flight engineer there as well wouldn’t you at HCU? They didn’t go to OTU did they? The flight engineers.
AC: No. That’s right. You’re right. Yeah. Picked him up there. But —
SB: What happened to the rest of your crew when you finished your tour? Do you know? Do you know where they all went?
AC: When we finished our tour my wireless op he wanted to stay on but he, they didn’t take him on but he managed to get a trip in. He flew with a squadron leader then. This chap [pause] the President of the Air Force Association.
SB: Doug Ratcliffe? No.
AC: No. He’s the —
SB: He’s the secretary.
AC: Secretary.
SB: Oh, hang on.
AC: [unclear] of the Royal Air Force.
SB: Yes.
AC: God, I can’t remember it.
Other: Listen to the two of you.
SB: Beetham? Beetham. Michael Beetham.
AC: He was a squadron leader then and my wireless op flew out to India with him and they, he met my brother and they flew out to [unclear] and they didn’t want him in the Air Force so he joined the Army. They jumped at him because the standard of training in the Air Force was much better.
SB: Right.
AC: And he came out a major I think.
SB: Really?
AC: Yeah. He’s still alive. There’s three of us still alive.
SB: Yes.
AC: More or less [laughs] —
SB: Who was the other one? The other ones?
AC: Mid-upper gunner.
[pause]
SB: Yeah.
AC: It’s double sided [laughs] you know that.
Other: Yes. Yes. I keep counting that I’ve done it right. That’s the problem Aubrey I keep thinking to myself have I done twenty three and twenty four.
AC: My late brother did those.
SB: A terrific job. Oh, my tea too. Thank you very much.
[pause]
SB: Oh, here we are. This is the 1381 TCU. I can’t think where that was.
Other: That’s a full logbook.
SB: A beautiful logbook. Yes.
Other: Isn’t it.
AC: Oh crumbs [pause]
SB: If we had the books I could probably tell you but I haven’t. Oh hang on. You never know your luck.
AC: I’ve got a lot of problem with my memory. I’ve had all the tests. They say, ‘No. There’s nothing wrong with you.’ [laughs]
SB: No. It’s not in there.
AC: Oh, that was Marston Moor wasn’t it? Yeah.
SB: Right. Oh right. Ok. Oh, Green Endorsement.
AC: Hmmn?
SB: A Green Endorsement. Good airmanship and the full operational tour has been completed without being involved in any accident.
AC: Oh yes. Nearly.
SB: Well, none that you’d admit to. Now, you got the DFC didn’t you?
AC: Yes.
SB: That was for the tour or for anything in particular?
AC: Nothing in particular I don’t think.
SB: Right.
AC: Not that I told them.
Other: Well, as you say I think I’ve taken one twice Steve just to let you know. Alright.
SB: Oh, I’m always doing that, Dean.
Other: So, rather than lose it I want to make sure you’ve got it.
SB: Now, do you have a photograph of yourself in uniform or better still a photograph and or with your crew at all?
AC: I have one hanging on the wall down here.
SB: Ah, should I follow you?
AC: You can. Or I could bring it in.
[long pause]
Other: Grabbing of the last of the summer.
Other 1: I’ve been reading about it. Yes.
Other: They say it’s going to bad tomorrow don’t they?
[pause]
Other 1: It’s just going for whether a bumper crop of blackberries etcetera means a bleak winter. It does normally doesn’t it?
Other: Oh lots of berries doesn’t it. They say that don’t they?
Other 1: Yes.
Other: Yes. I’ve never seen so many butterflies this year. Not never. It’s a long time since I’ve seen so many butterflies in one year.
Other 1: It is up here saying butterfly conservation saying its good news for butterflies this fine weather because the winter was so bad that they are hibernated late which is why we’ve got more now.
Other: Oh right. Well, it’s funny because I did notice it this year. I love butterflies. I think they’re fantastic.
Other 1: You’ve got butterfly plants in your garden.
Other: Yes. Yes. We’ve got them specially in this year because we wanted well as everybody does nothing beats lavender.
Other 1: Yes.
Other: [unclear] is great.
Other 1: Yes, we have lavender out the front and it was absolutely covered in bees but we didn’t see any butterflies.
Other: You didn’t have any butterflies.
Other 1: Near where we are there is a Wrest Park which is English Heritage property and they had a whole bunch of lavenders. Lavender plants there. I’ve never seen anything like it. There were bees, butterflies, White, Red Admirals everything going on. It was absolutely totally and utterly full and because there was a whole batch of them it looked like a swarm. I can’t remember that ever.
Other: There is a butterfly farm [unclear]
Other 1: There is at St Albans.
Other: Yes.
Other 1: Jolly pretty little place.
Other: I’ve never been there.
Other 1: Oh, it’s worth going. Oh, it is worth going. Seriously. Make sure you take your good camera with you.
Other: [unclear – lots of overtalking each other]
Other 1: I said what do we do? She said, ‘Well, you can hold insects in your hand.’ I thought well yeah twenty seven pounds just to do that.
Other: That’s a lot of money.
Other 1: But it’s obviously got more than that.
Other: They’ve been expanding it and we went two years ago so I would imagine. It’s quite pleasant in its own way.
Other 1: You would say it’s worth it.
Other: Yes. Not if you’re going to come and hit me over the head and say, ‘I’ve paid twenty seven pounds for that.’ The thing, the thing I would say though is that the butterflies are stunning and then pretty well just opposite that is the Insect House which I thought I wouldn’t be interested in.
SB: Who are they? Who are they all? It’s fascinating. That’s absolutely fascinating.
Other: They’ve got a piece of rope that runs across and they look like little stick insects and they’re carrying logs behind them and taking them to their nest and it’s like a motorway. They’re going past each other and then back on there. It’s fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.
Other 1: Have you seen the ants on television?
Other: Absolutely like that. But twenty seven pounds each.
Other 1: [unclear]
Other: They’ve got quite a nice place to have something to eat.
Other 1: [unclear]
Other: Yeah. It is. I’m going to stick my neck out and say yes. I think it is. I mean as you say the grandchildren are twenty odd now.
Other 1: Yes.
Other: You just get such fantastic photographs from it.
Other 1: Oh well.
Other: And they will land on you. They will land on your hand.
Other 1: She said, ‘Oh yes, you can hold the insects,’ it didn’t sound terribly thrilling.
Other: Well, I’ll go with that.
Other 1: It’s obviously more geared to younger children.
Other: And I would say that’s right. That’s why I said about the twenty years old. If you said about your grandchildren. But just for yourselves it’s very impressive. I went along thinking you know I’m not really sure about this but I came away impressed.
Other 1: My eldest son he thinks since we’ve moved he thinks we might worry about moving. We moved two and a half years ago.
Other: Where from?
Other 1: Frinton on Sea.
Other: Oh, did you? That’s quite a difference.
SB: I’m afraid the last photograph I have to take is you. You’re fine where you are Aubrey. You’re fine where you are.
Other 1: When Aubrey retired we moved and I’m eighty six, he’s nearly ninety one and it was getting a distance for the boys to come down.
SB: One for luck.
[pause]
SB: Thank you very much.
Other 1: And so we thought well we’re not going to live forever we’ll come up here —
Collection
Citation
S Bond and A T Cole, “Interview with Aubrey Coles. One,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed June 13, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/48882.
Item Relations
| This Item | dcterms:relation | Item: Interviews with Aubrey Coles |