Interview with George Williams

Interview with George Williams

George Williams lived in Nottingham before training to be a pilot with the RAF. He trained in the USA before returning to the UK. He served with Bomber Command prior to being posted to Coastal Command. He experienced the different types of challenges from both Commands and flew Lancasters and Flying Boats.

2018-05-31

01:41:44 audio recording

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AWilliamsGJB180531

CB: Right. We’re ready to go. My name is Chris Brockbank and today is the 31st of May 2018 and we’re in Frome talking with George Williams about his life and experiences in the RAF. What are your earliest recollections of life George?
GW: Of life itself?
CB: Yes.
GW: Going into the school Training Corps where they had an RAF training unit. But I was about thirteen then I think. But before that my experience was purely what you would expect from a very ordinary family going to school. There was no public schools or things like that. I went through the state system as an ordinary family would.
CB: What did your father do?
GW: My father worked for the Cooperative Society and then for Brown Brothers the wholesale car parts. Parts for mending cars.
CB: And how many brothers or sisters did you have?
GW: I didn’t have any did I?
Other: No.
GW: None.
CB: Right. And you had a happy time at school.
GW: Yes.
CB: Was it the Grammar School that you went to?
GW: Eventually. I won. You could win a scholarship to a Grammar School but it was quite, it was quite an honour to win a scholarship. You know. You weren’t just accepted.
CB: No.
GW: Into the school. I was quite, I was fairly academic I think. I read a lot. I know that.
CB: So you did get a scholarship to go to the Grammar School.
GW: Pardon?
CB: You did get a scholarship yourself.
GW: Yes.
CB: Yeah.
GW: To go to upgrade my schooling.
CB: And when you left school what age were you then?
GW: I suppose I was about seventeen.
CB: So you were too young to go in the forces then. What did you do as a job?
GW: I worked in the offices of the Cooperative Society as an office, just an office employee.
CB: Yes. And did you maintain your membership of the Air Training Corps at that stage?
GW: Yes. I joined the Air Training Corps whilst I was in that job.
CB: Right.
GW: And I went from the job on the Air Training Corps on into the Air Force.
CB: What made you join the RAF and not the Army or the Navy?
GW: Well, I was always very keen on aeroplanes and as a matter of fact I used, there was quite a well know airfield near Nottingham called Hucknall. It was a civil airfield and I used to spend quite a lot of time as a boy just hanging about there watching the planes come and go. I never had anything to do with it but I used to watch them.
CB: Why, did you have family down there because that’s not near Manchester is it?
GW: Hucknall isn’t. No.
CB: No.
GW: No.
CB: Or had the family moved to Hucknall?
GW: No, the family had moved into that area.
CB: Right. Ok.
GW: Yes, my father, I don’t know what he did then. I can’t remember.
CB: Ok. So what, how did you go about joining the RAF?
GW: Well, it was more or less automatic because once you’re in the Air Training Corps you were expected to be training to move on to the RAF.
CB: So where did you join?
GW: Not necessarily as a pilot or aircrew. I mean you might go in as an air gunner or even as a mechanic. And you said when did we leave?
CB: No. Where did you sign up to join the RAF?
GW: A place called Blackley. Blackley it’s spelled. Near, near Manchester.
CB: Right. And where did you go from there?
GW: Well, the first place I went to was Lord’s Cricket Ground where the new recruits to the RAF had to arrive and sign the papers and generally mess about drilling and things. And then I passed on from there to Florida where, America wasn’t in the war but we went to Florida to the Embry-Riddle School of Aviation.
CB: How did you get there?
GW: How did I get there?
CB: How did you get there?
GW: We went on a troop ship. An American troop ship. Eight of us and we landed off this troop ship in New York and we were taken over in New York by the American Army and they looked after us for about six weeks until we moved on to the Flying School which was civilian operated.
CB: And where was that in Florida?
GW: A place called Clewiston. Not, the nearest well known place was Palm Beach in Florida.
CB: And so what type of airfield? Was it a civilian airfield or was it a military one?
GW: It was a civilian’s airfield. Yes. It was a Training School really. Yes.
CB: Yeah. And who were your trainers? Who did, who did the instruction?
GW: American pilots. Not military. Just civil teachers really.
CB: So you had ground school as well as flying so who did the ground school?
GW: We didn’t. The only ground school we had was a sort of drilling and that. The typical RAF type of thing you know. Drilling and marching and that sort of thing.
CB: Yeah.
GW: Learning the discipline.
CB: But things like aerodynamics.
GW: Yes.
CB: Theory of flight engines.
GW: We had them.
CB: So there was a ground school operating.
GW: Yes. Yeah.
CB: Who would be the instructors for that? Were they RAF people or were they American?
GW: No. It was run by the American —
CB: Right.
GW: Air force.
CB: Yeah. And how did the process go? Was the weather good or bad?
GW: Well, at the time we thought it was very good. Naturally we would because we were all excited and it was a wonderful place to be. Yes. It was very good.
CB: And how often did you fly?
GW: We were there for eight months and we flew more or less every day for six or seven months anyway. Not a lot of flying during the course which lasted I think eight months. Towards the end you were sent off solo and given an objective to say fly to such and such a city, turn around and come back. So, you know, you were sent off and told to go and land at such a place say a couple of hundred miles away and then you refuelled and flew back.
CB: Cross country.
GW: And by then you were pretty experienced in navigation.
CB: And what were the aircraft you were flying?
GW: Wait a minute [pause] Stearmans. Stearman.
CB: Yes.
GW: Stearman.
CB: But initially you flew something else before the Stearman didn’t you?
GW: Yes, I did. Damned if I can’t remember what they were called.
Other: Not Lancaster was it? It was a bigger one.
GW: Oh no. No.
Other: No. So —
GW: Lancasters were much later.
Other: Yeah.
GW: I can’t remember what they were.
CB: No. PT17s?
GW: No. They were, they were Stearmans I think.
CB: Yes.
GW: Stearman.
CB: But the Stearman was bigger wasn’t it? So you, what did you start straight off on the Stearman?
GW: I don’t think the Stearman was bigger was it?
CB: Big radial engine but —
GW: Oh.
CB: Yes. And after that, so at the end of the course then what did you do?
GW: I think coming to your first question —
CB: Yes.
GW: I think probably amongst the photographs there will be at least two of me with the original aircraft.
CB: Yes. They used Cornells.
GW: Yes. I forget the name.
CB: Ok.
GW: And then we moved on to [pause] sorry I’ve forgotten the name now.
CB: Did you then, did you move somewhere else in America before you —
GW: No.
CB: Right.
GW: We finished the course in America. Came back to England and started flying at just outside I think it was Barefield or [pause] Boreham. Boreham. Boreham just outside the River Thames, River Thames area.
CB: Right. Ok. And that was familiarisation flying.
GW: Yes.
CB: Was it?
GW: That was, that was also conversion from twin engine. Sorry, twin wing planes to single planes. Single wing plane.
CB: Yes. Biplane to monoplane.
GW: Yeah.
CB: Yes. And what were you flying? Do you remember? Magisters were they?
GW: No. One was the Stearman I think it was. The more advanced of the —
CB: Now, after the Stearman you probably went on to what the Americans called the Texans but we called the Harvard. Do you remember that? Single.
GW: A Harvard.
CB: Yes.
GW: That’s what we flew. Yes.
CB: Yeah.
GW: You’ve got a better knowledge of it than I have.
CB: Nice to fly you see. Right. Ok. So that was a conversion to monoplane and British weather.
GW: Yes.
CB: Where did you go after that?
GW: Came back. Graduated as pilots and we came back to England and at first I was posted to an airfield just outside the Thames Estuary. I can’t remember its name at the moment.
CB: Ok. We’ll pick up on that later.
GW: And we were just expanding on the knowledge of training that we’d got in America really.
CB: Yes.
GW: Detailing more navigation and long old trips. Not outside Britain of course.
CB: No.
GW: Because the war was on.
CB: Yes.
GW: That was it really.
CB: Just going back to America though your instructors were American but they were civilians.
GW: They were.
CB: What was their level of ability and their relationship with you?
GW: Pretty good I think because the Americans had a choice of the best of civilian pilots to train not only us but American cadets as well.
CB: Right.
GW: So the standard of training was quite high. I remember that.
CB: And socially? Socially. How did you get on?
GW: Oh, very well. The American people around that airfield which was Miami in Florida.
CB: Yeah.
GW: They used to love to entertain us. We used to get one weekend free in a month and when we had our weekend free they were queuing up to get us to their home as their guest. They loved that.
CB: So did you go in pairs or threes or what did you do?
GW: No. We went in our uniform. Sorry. We didn’t show it as a uniform. It was just a khaki shirt and trousers. No. No badges or anything.
CB: And did you go with a friend or did you go individually to these families?
GW: No. I went, you know during the course you become friendly with individuals and I had two or three friends so on occasions one or more of them went with me. But all the families around Palm Beach and Miami were entertaining RAF cadets. So at weekends wherever we went we came across you were invited to these very nice parties and came across your friends from the airfield who were also invited. Of course, there was a limited number of girls available so you had to queue up if you wanted a girlfriend.
CB: Right. So how did you get on with that?
GW: I was a bit of a shy lad I think really. Yes. I wasn’t a big kind of a girl attracter.
CB: It sort of builds doesn’t it as you, as you get trained more it works like honey. They come to you.
GW: Well, sorry. What was that question?
CB: As you get your training and you end up with a brevet then they come to you.
GW: Yes.
CB: Because it’s like honey.
GW: But we, we more or less left immediately at the end of the training. They wanted us back because you know we were in the thick of the war then.
CB: Yes.
GW: They wanted as many fighters, fighter pilots back as they could get.
CB: Just going back a bit. how were you selected to be a pilot rather than an observer?
GW: Well —
CB: Signaller or whatever.
GW: It was, it was really at the discretion of the instructors. I mean if they felt you had abilities as a pilot they automatically sent you to a twelve hour Flying Training School where your aptitude to be a pilot was judged. Otherwise, if the, if the basic school didn’t think you had pilot quality they then sent you on to another school. Say an Air Gunner’s School or even a navigator’s one.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
GW: But being a pilot was the premier selection. Naturally everybody wanted to be a pilot so they were careful in their choice of trainees. They got a block of people and they made a choice of some going on to be pilots. Others navigators. Others air gunners. And so it came that way.
CB: Now, the weather in Florida was ideal for learning to fly.
GW: Oh yes.
CB: But we know that the nature of flying instruction is that people failed to make the grade so how often did you find that people were chopped on the training?
GW: What? Shot? You mean —
CB: Chopped. They were —
GW: Oh chopped.
CB: Yes
GW: Well, the —
CB: Anyone sent —
GW: The pass average on the first part of the training was probably about twenty five percent.
CB: Oh.
GW: And the rest were sent off to Navigational Schools.
CB: Right.
GW: That sort of thing.
CB: Right. And then it settled down.
GW: Yes. Then you started more serious training and eventually leading up to whatever war plane you were eventually going to fly.
CB: Yes.
GW: Whether a Lancaster or a Halifax or anything.
CB: Yeah.
GW: In some cases it would be an Anson because you were chosen to be a very suited type to be an instructor and they used to fly pupils in planes like the Anson.
CB: They did run the system didn’t they called the creamies?
GW: Yeah.
CB: So people who were really good were creamed off.
GW: That’s right.
CB: To do that.
GW: Exactly that.
CB: Yes. Did you see any of those on your course?
GW: Well, I was one.
CB: Were you really?
GW: Yes.
CB: Right. So as a creamie what happened to you then?
GW: Let me stop and think for a minute. Oh well, we did the training course and then they chose whether you were going to be a good type to be a trainee pilot and they did the training course and that’s the point when you became as you say a creamie in that they may have had say twenty pass the course.
CB: Yeah.
GW: But maybe eight of them were above the normal standard and then you’d got if you were lucky enough you were plucked out and sent to a more Advanced Training School.
CB: Right.
GW: And the rest of them went to a less Advanced Training School.
CB: Yes. And where was that?
GW: In my case I went to [unclear] in oh God.
CB: In the Thames Estuary.
GW: Near, near Reading.
CB: Yeah. Ok.
GW: [unclear] I think it was.
CB: Yeah. Yeah. Ok. So after your experience there what happened next?
GW: Went from [unclear] to [pause] oh, I went as a staff pilot at an Air Training School where trainee cadets were given their instruction by people like myself who were experienced training pilots by then. And then after a while when you’d done that job and they wanted you for more serious things they plucked you out of that and allocated you to a squadron of some kind. It could be anything. Coastal Command or anything. In my case I ended up with Coastal Command.
CB: Right. So you then had to convert on to what aircraft?
GW: Well, we flew oh what was the Flying Boats name? There was the least of the Flying Boats working from Southampton water.
CB: Yes.
GW: And I can’t remember its name. it was a good aircraft. And then you kept with Flying Boats right the way through to the Sunderland which was the most advanced of the Flying Boats.
CB: Ok. But this wasn’t a biplane Flying Boat, was it?
GW: Pardon?
CB: Was it a biplane flying boat or was it a monoplane?
GW: Monoplane.
CB: Right. Ok. Walrus?
GW: Pardon?
CB: Was it a Walrus?
GW: Oh, I did fly a Walrus. Yes.
CB: You did. Right.
GW: Yes. I did. But that was the first stage after the Initial Training. You went on to the Walrus.
CB: Right.
GW: And from the Walrus you went to the next stage on. I can’t remember what it was now.
CB: Ok. Right. So your posting went. Where did you do your Flying Boat training?
GW: My basic training [pause] oh dear. It’s an airfield just out, it was just outside High Wycombe.
CB: Oh, Booker.
GW: Booker. That’s it.
CB: Right. So that wasn’t your Flying Boat training. That was your getting prepared for it was it?
GW: No. We did some flying there. Biplane flying.
CB: Yes.
GW: But not a lot. Tiger Moth. And then I think we went on I can’t remember where we went for the next stage. I’ve got a feeling it was somewhere there near Nottingham. It might, might have been Hucknall.
CB: Yes.
GW: Possibly was.
CB: So what were you flying there?
GW: Tiger Moth and, sorry I’ve lost the other one. I think I might have found a [pause] it was a biplane. I can’t remember which one.
CB: Yeah. Dragon Rapide?
GW: I can’t. I haven’t got the name back.
CB: Ok. So just going back to the point you made about Coastal Command and Flying Boats you would have had to do twin training before then so what did you —
GW: Oh, before I got —
CB: Yes.
GW: Oh yes.
CB: So what did you do there?
GW: You got, you got quite a long way in relatively Elementary Flying Training until you got to a state where you could be posted to a command like Coastal Command.
CB: Yes.
GW: Or other thing.
CB: But what I meant was you had to, in your training you had to convert on to a twin.
GW: Yeah.
CB: And so when you came back from the States and you did your acclimatisation and getting used to monoplanes.
GW: Right.
CB: Which you said at [unclear] near reading.
GW: Yeah.
CB: At what stage did you do your twin engine conversion and where was that?
GW: Well, we went to various airfields. For instance, I can remember we did some at Booker.
CB: Yes.
GW: Just outside Nottingham.
CB: Booker at High Wycombe. Yes.
GW: I’m trying to remember the other one. There was at least one other.
CB: Yes.
GW: I can’t remember. Sorry.
CB: No. No. What I’m really getting at is what was the, what aeroplane did you fly?
GW: Oh.
CB: When you converted to twin engine.
GW: Oh well, when we came back from America having trained on relatively elementary aircraft.
CB: Yes.
GW: We came back and we started flying Tiger Moths.
CB: Yes.
GW: In England.
CB: Yes.
GW: That was the first stage of flying. And then we moved on from the Tiger Moth to [pause] what was the next one? I forget now. What did we go from the Tiger Moth. Sorry. I can’t remember.
CB: It’s ok. When, when we look in your logbook we’ll pick it up but a lot of people converted on to Oxfords to do twin engine.
GW: That’s right. I believe I did that.
CB: Ok.
GW: Yes.
CB: And that set you up for completing training on multi engine.
GW: Yeah.
CB: Or twin engine.
GW: Yes. And ultimately led to me, to the Wellington.
CB: Right.
GW: Which was the first big, large twin engine plane I flew.
CB: Yeah.
GW: It was a very very popular plane at the time.
CB: So where would you be flying the Wellingtons?
GW: Just outside Nottingham. Oh, about ten miles outside Nottingham. I forget —
CB: Ok.
GW: The name of the airfield now.
CB: And was that a Conversion Unit? An Operational Conversion Unit.
GW: Yes. A Conversion Unit.
CB: Yeah. An OTU Operational Training Unit.
GW: Yes.
CB: OTU. Right. And so that is where you picked up a crew.
GW: Yes.
CB: How did you do that?
GW: You didn’t really pick up a crew from that particular occasion. You went moving on in your basic training until you were qualified and then gradually others were posted to you if you like and I think we probably had a crew of about six of us altogether.
CB: Yeah. In the Wellington.
GW: There was that would be on a twin engine.
CB: Yeah. On the Wellington.
GW: I’m trying to think what they all did. There was a wireless operator.
CB: Yeah.
GW: Who also operated an air gun. There was two air gunners. One in the, one in the fore part of the plane.
CB: Yeah.
GW: One in the rear. There was a navigator and two pilots.
CB: Yes.
GW: That was it.
CB: Right. So initially did you fly as second pilot or did you go straight in as the captain?
GW: I flew as second pilot initially for a very very short time. Probably no more than probably ten hours.
CB: Then you effectively got your own aeroplane.
GW: Yes. The thing is that you must remember that before I even started in America I’d been in the Air Training Corps and much involved in Air Force affairs.
CB: Right.
GW: Though not actually a member of the real Air Force.
CB: Right.
GW: There training but living amongst pilots and so on as we did in the Air Training Corps—
CB: At Hucknall. Yes
GW: You picked up an awful lot. By the time you went to America to train they also trained by the way in South Africa.
CB: Yeah.
GW: And the one other country. I think in one of the, Rhodesia. Yeah.
CB: Yes.
GW: And by the time you got to that training you’d had quite a lot of experience with other lesser airfields and lesser aircraft.
CB: Yes. Yeah.
GW: I suppose I would say the first real aeroplane I flew in the bigger sense was the Wellington.
CB: Yes. How did you like flying that?
GW: I liked the Wellington. I always liked it. It was a very good aircraft. Very stable. Very reliable and it was a good worker.
CB: So how long did you fly the Wellington before you moved on to something else?
GW: I would think about eight months.
CB: Ok.
GW: And then I think we went on to the Lancaster after the Wellington.
CB: Ok.
GW: Yes.
CB: So where would that be?
GW: We flew the Lancaster at an airfield in Yorkshire or Lancashire. I can’t remember the name of the airfield now. It was a training school for moving up.
CB: Yeah. A Heavy Conversion Unit.
GW: Yes.
CB: Right. They tended to be in the Lincolnshire area.
GW: Yes.
CB: But there were some further north.
GW: Yes.
CB: So you did the Heavy Conversion Unit.
GW: Pardon?
CB: You did the Heavy Conversion Unit on the Lancaster and you will have gained two more crew one of whom was the flight engineer.
GW: That’s right. Yeah.
CB: Well, one more crew perhaps. How did the crew gel together?
GW: Generally speaking not bad but you will always get a group of men who are disappointed because they’d hoped to be a pilot and they ended up a rear gunner. That type of thing. On the whole the crews themselves and in particularly the pilots all got on well together.
CB: Yeah.
GW: Swapped notes. Talked about raids. Talked about the models of the aircraft. Model. Not models. You know, type of aircraft.
CB: Yes. Yes.
GW: And so on but on the whole I would say nobody looked upon an air gunner as being inferior to a navigator or pilot because you were all a team together really.
CB: Yeah.
GW: And you did, you did tend to perhaps deep down inside you think oh well he’s not as well trained as I am but he would never have shown it. It was all in a spirit of as if we were all one sort of thing.
CB: And the nature of the Air Force was that there were people from all over the Commonwealth.
GW: Correct.
CB: So in your crew were they all Brits or did you get —
GW: I think I had, wait a minute [pause] I think I had. Yes. I had a South African I think. And one other nationality. I can’t remember what it was. Seems silly doesn’t it but —
CB: Was he Commonwealth or did he come from somewhere like Ireland or —
GW: He was Commonwealth.
CB: He was. Right.
GW: Actually, it’s quite remarkable because you know I’m a hundred and two now and amazed that I can remember all this detail looking back because —
CB: You’re doing really well.
GW: I hadn’t thought about —
CB: No.
GW: A lot of this for years and years.
CB: Yeah. Yeah.
GW: Mind you I did love it at the time. I was really born to be an airman and right from a very early age I used to go from school to Hucknall to watch the Tiger Moths fly.
CB: Yes.
GW: And just stand outside the fence watching them. I was only about thirteen or something.
CB: And back on your Lancaster. That’s a big aeroplane.
GW: At the time apart from the Flying Boats. It was the biggest aircraft flying and it was a Lancaster and a Halifax.
CB: Yes.
GW: They were pretty well the same size. The Flying Boats were bigger.
CB: And how did, how did the handling of the Lancaster feel to you?
GW: Well, we all thought the Lancaster handled better than a Halifax. Thinking back on it I probably was wrong. They were probably equally as good but you began, you really loved the Lancaster somehow. It grew on you.
CB: Yes.
GW: I think there may have been a little bit of family jealousy there because my father went to work in the factory building Lancasters so —
CB: At Woodford.
GW: Naturally I had a leaning towards them anyway. But they were fine aircraft. There’s no doubt about it. They were definitely better than the Halifax.
CB: So what was your squadron number?
GW: On?
CB: What was the squadron that you moved to after the Heavy Conversion Unit?
GW: Do you know I’ve asked myself this question so many times without remembering and I’ve gone through the papers and so on and never quite caught the right one so I wouldn’t answer that honestly because I couldn’t.
CB: When you get your logbook we’ll have a look. And the, what about the crew itself? What was the composition? Were they all NCOs or did you have —
GW: No. Most of the crew were NCOs. It was quite an achievement to be chosen to be an officer pilot or officer air crew because there was only a limited number of vacancies and obviously the RAF chose the people it thought mostly could do the job I suppose. But I mean if you take the numbers they probably are four or five aircrew to one or two pilots. One or two officer aircrew.
CB: Yes. At what stage did you receive your commission?
GW: Almost immediately. I went to America to train. I came back. Went to [unclear] I think and then I received my commission.
CB: Yeah.
GW: With great pride.
CB: No, right.
GW: I was only I suppose I was only just over nineteen [pause – sound of aircraft overhead] There’s some of my friends flying up there now.
CB: So what happened? You did a full tour of thirty ops did you?
GW: I did. Yeah. No, I didn’t do a full tour. What happened was I was posted eventually to Coastal Command.
CB: Yeah.
GW: And I enjoyed that job and there was a bit of a need for observation at sea and they looked, they were really looking for very steady sort of pilots. Not guys that wanted to hare off and have a shotgun. And that’s when I moved on because I was a steady sort of person in an aeroplane. So they must have thought I’d be suitable for this sort of job.
CB: Yes. Where was your squadron based?
GW: Well, places. We were first posted at Hucknall near Nottingham.
CB: Yeah.
GW: We were at, oh Lord in, two in Scotland. Not Scotland. Oh yeah. One in Scotland. Dumfries. And one in Yorkshire.
CB: Yeah.
GW: Wait a minute, wait a minute that was a pre-war airfield.
CB: Yeah.
GW: Just outside Bridlington. I can’t remember the name of the airfield. [Bookham] Would it be [Bookham] I don’t know. I’m sorry.
CB: It doesn’t matter.
GW: I’ve forgotten.
CB: And then when you joined Coastal Command where was that?
GW: We operated from [pause] now you’re catching me out.
CB: Was this the Scottish one?
GW: I can’t [laughs] Coastal Command. Oh yes. I think we were just inland from Bridlington.
CB: Right. And what were you flying in Coastal Command?
GW: Flying Wellingtons and Warwicks.
CB: Right. Now, the Warwick was a development of the Wellington. How much better was it?
GW: Well, I always thought the Wellington was a very good aircraft but the Warwick was marginally better. It was advanced. It improved the technical quality of the plane with virtually the same title claim but they just tarted it up here and there.
CB: Yeah.
GW: And it flew slightly better but not that much.
CB: More powerful was it?
GW: Yes.
CB: And so for Coastal Command activities your techniques were different from when you were flying in Bomber Command. What was the difference?
GW: Well, we had to, we had to be more astute at navigation because with Bomber Command you were part of a sort of mass of aircraft moving on block to a target. Whereas with Coastal Command you were frequently searching and flying unaccompanied. Just, just you.
CB: Yeah.
GW: So you had to be, you had to be more observant and I suppose you had to be a better navigator really but you had to be more observant because you were reporting alone. Not three other people.
CB: So what did you do? Run a square search?
GW: I didn’t catch that.
CB: Did you run a square search system? How did you operate your searches?
GW: Oh, well we used to, we used to, the areas being searched were blocked off. I don’t mean blocked off literally but they were, they were map blocked.
CB: Yes.
GW: And you were told right you had to work area so and so and someone else so and so and so on and then you liased with each other at the end of the flights and changed over so that all the time you were looking at different angles of the same part of the world if you know what I mean.
CB: Yeah. So what was your in operating area?
GW: Well, I flew a great deal of the sort of Norwegian. That area between east England —
CB: Yeah.
GW: And Norway. The Scandinavian area. It was quite, it was quite a tricky area because you were more or less on the edge of the German main attacking airfields so you had to be, you had to carefully plan your working schedule and carefully plan your route really.
CB: What were you looking for in terms of targets?
GW: Not targets for aeroplanes. Targets generally. A lot of military installations that we wouldn’t know exactly what was going on in some of those say Scandinavian countries.
CB: Yeah.
GW: So we used to try and reconnaissance them without being shot down.
CB: Yeah.
GW: So that our armies had information on what the enemy was doing on the ground.
CB: Were you working anti-shipping?
GW: Pardon?
CB: Were you doing anti shipping strikes or not?
GW: We did anti-submarine. Yeah. U-boat.
CB: Right.
GW: Anti U-boat.
CB: So did you carry.
GW: I never saw a U-boat.
CB: No.
GW: Funnily enough. I must have done twenty or thirty U-boat patrols and I never once saw a U-boat.
CB: And did you have bombs or did you have depth charges for that?
GW: Sometimes. Sometimes depth charges. Sometimes bombs. It depended.
CB: Yeah.
GW: You always had a dual. You always had a dual role of ammunition so if you saw the target that you felt was more suited to receive a particular bomb or so on you could swap. You usually carried a mixed load of perhaps three different types of ammunition.
CB: Yeah. Ordnance. Yes. And how often did you engage in aerial combat? Fighters.
GW: It varied according to the way the war was going but on the whole I would have said that you made about five sorties a month.
CB: Yes. And how often did you get intercepted by fighters?
GW: I’ll think about that one [pause] Oddly enough only three times. And then we, we managed to dodge into cloud. We were flying in winter time and you could escape if you were lucky getting in to the cloud and ducking the aircraft. So I never really, I could never honestly say that I ever saw or felt the impact of the enemy. Although they were there.
CB: What about ground flak?
GW: Hardly any as far as I was concerned because we never flew much over cities. We were more or less coastal attackers if I can use the word.
CB: Yeah.
GW: But the main ground flak came to Bomber Command.
CB: Yeah.
GW: Going over on raids to places like Berlin or Cologne or places like that.
CB: I was wondering whether in the U-boat search you came across armed trawlers, flak ships, light cruisers or —
GW: Well—
CB: Destroyers.
GW: About twice we definitively set out to go for a particular warship which we knew was there. In other words the reconnaissance aircraft had spotted it and situated it and then they handed the information on and if we chose to have a go we would have a go. I personally never, I don’t think I ever attacked a foreign aircraft. A foreign ship I mean. No. It’s, it’s a bit tricky this talk because it keeps filtering back a bit here but when I, by the time it’s got there I’d be talking about something entirely different but still the same war of course.
CB: This is it. Yeah. Did they chuck things up at you was one of the questions isn’t it? The flak. But you didn’t —
GW: Oh, the flak.
CB: Yes.
GW: Oh yes. Yes. The flak. None of us enjoyed flak. There’s no question about that. It was quite heavy in some parts of Europe. Very heavy indeed.
CB: When you were in the Lancaster you were getting a good deal of it.
GW: A good deal of it. Yes.
CB: Yes. And in your training you had undertaken corkscrew practice had you?
GW: Well, oddly enough we never did. We never actually as part of our training trained to avoid flak. I think we, it was assumed that in the briefing we were warned that we were going to a high flak area and told the idea of what to do to avoid it as much as possible. It wasn’t a specific training item. It was a matter of being told what flak was. What to look for. What to do if you saw it and so on. Then it’s pot luck after that. It’s most amazing after all these years that I can sit and talk to you like this and so much is coming back in my mind. I’m almost in the cockpit part of the time talking to you.
CB: So what was it like sitting in the cockpit because you’re on your own in the Lancaster.
GW: Well no. I had a co-pilot but —
CB: In the Wellington.
GW: Well, it was never pleasant in a, in a medium like a Lancaster or other bombers because you were always due to be attacked. Somebody was going to go for you. Although naturally you avoided the worst areas. We tried to keep a careful reconnaissance on where flak was bad or where there was particular movement of fighters and so on. So it was a bit dodgy but not bad.
CB: Going to your Coastal Command activities what height were you flying then normally?
GW: In Coastal Command?
CB: Yes.
GW: Well, that varied on what type of trip we were after. Sometimes we’d go after fairly light type ships. I’ll try to think of the type of ship to explain it. Anyway, it depends whether for all major, major flights we were very very seldom went lower than four thousand feet.
CB: Right. In contrast to the Lancaster where you’d be flying higher. What height would you be flying?
GW: Yeah. Well, there you see you would be flying over high flak areas protecting cities and therefore you had to fly a good deal higher. I think we probably flew twenty thousand feet or so. I’m not sure about that but something like that. If you were bombing major cities well you knew there would be a considerable concentration of flak then you would naturally fly higher if you could.
CB: So still on your Bomber Command activity you’re approaching the target.
GW: Yes.
CB: Then how did you feel about the run in?
GW: [laughs] Dead scared. No. You were bound to feel nervous because let’s face it you might have eight of your own squadron going in and they might well know that when you got back there would only be four or five left and it’s not a warm feeling when you think five of your friends have disappeared. Five of your friend’s planes I mean. No. Do you know when it was, we were all so mixed. So mixed into the war. We were all young. We were all keen to win the war and I think a lot of the things we did had circumstances been different we would never have done but we did it because it was our job and because we’d trained to do it and we took pride in doing it really. I don’t know that it was kind to take pride in blowing people up but somehow or other we did take pride in our job.
CB: And doing it well.
GW: How are you doing for your notes?
CB: Very good.
GW: Well —
CB: Running out of ink [laughs] So on the, so you dropped the bombs and then you have to keep steady.
GW: Yeah. Well having a, you chose the target, run in on the target, dropped the bomb and started to climb like hell to get away from it.
CB: Right. But immediately after bomb release you had to keep steady for the photoflash.
GW: Yes. But that was almost immediate.
CB: Was it?
GW: You know.
CB: Right.
GW: Between releasing a bomb and it striking target only a matter of a minute or two minutes at the most by which time you could, you could just do a quick circle and we had very powerful photographic equipment on board.
CB: Yes.
GW: So we always had a pretty accurate idea of what, whether we’d done a good job or not.
CB: Yes. What about reliability of the Lancaster? Did you always have everything running or did you have hiccups sometimes?
GW: Did we what?
CB: Have hiccups sometimes.
GW: Oh no.
CB: Engine failure or —
GW: Well, yes. I mean every aircraft had it no matter what make. Not necessarily anything to do with a natural battle position that the aircraft were like they are today I suppose. Prone to trouble sometimes but generally speaking I always consider the Lancaster to be the best of the warplane with the Halifax following on after it. Of course, then we had the other. The ocean, ocean going ones as well but I still think the Lancaster was the best plane that we ever used in the war.
CB: And as far as targets were concerned what variety did you have?
GW: Pardon?
CB: Targets. What variety did you have in Bomber Command? Did you go to Berlin?
GW: Oh yes. I didn’t personally but we used to do raids on Berlin quite frequently. I did mostly raids on production factories. Not cities. I didn’t do a lot of city raids. It was, it was split up a bit you know. If you thought that an attack on a certain city would cause chaos through the war effort then you were ordered to do that. We were never that. Our object every time was to destroy the ability of the enemy to make aggression.
CB: How many ops did you end up with in Bomber Command?
GW: Well, this is a very interesting question because there was a rule that you were supposed to, a maximum was supposed to be thirty two but sometimes if it was a bit above and sometimes a little below. So I think on average you would do twenty eight missions. No. Less than that. You would do twenty six. Twenty five missions and then you would come off and have a break until the next round and in the break you would do some local flying and generally relaxing a bit, you know. But it was a funny thing. It was a jolly hazardous job and yet you I don’t know that, my crew never really and I never really thought was a fool I was. I just thought it’s a job and sometimes you used to get quite excited when you had done a wicked deed. Funny that. You were young. You were, we were fighting a war for all time so called. I don’t know. When I look back I’m amazed that I did some of the things that I did. It was, I think of all the Forces in the war from the Air Force attacks and things were the most glamorous because you know the other were like the Navy often had long and tedious battles and things. The Army definitely did it. So with the Air Force you really had a situation where you were in great danger but fortunately for a relatively short time. I always felt that, I always felt that we in the Air Force rather enjoyed it more than, more than, more than the infantry and other people. We probably didn’t but we thought we did. Mind you, you see we did have good breaks you know and if you were in the infantry you were in the front line for probably weeks up there. Whereas we, we’d have a nasty one night or two nights and then a break and some degree of relief in which we could get drunk, find ourselves girlfriends and all that sort of thing. And we all, most of us operated in England which made it pleasanter operating from your own base. It’s interesting talking to you. My mind is, it’s envisaging all these scenes. Anyway, it was a great occupation to have an enthusiastic girlfriend. They used to love the aircrew.
CB: So what about the social life then?
GW: Pardon?
CB: What about the social life?
GW: Oh, the social life. Oh, well we used to have, we used to have Mess dances once a month and a Mess dinner once a month. The public were invited. The lady public were invited to the dances. They weren’t invited to dinners and you got a very good social life from local people because they all thought that aircrew were gallant heroes so they used to invite you to their homes and parties and very frequently, in fact almost every time airfields were in rural areas where you had very successful farms and the farmers used to have very nice parties that you wouldn’t as normal civilians have with good food and everything. We used to get invited to those so we came out of it rather well because you had a short sharp period of danger and then you had perhaps a week of, not parties every night but invitations of various kinds. It’s fun to look back on it all. Oddly enough I haven’t done so for years but it’s this book business that brings it all back to my mind.
CB: So you’ve got —
GW: You’ve got enough.
CB: So you’ve got quite a lot of attention from the ladies.
GW: Oh yes. Definitely.
CB: You had to fight them off did you?
GW: Oh yes. Definitely. We were the glamour boys the aircrew. Particularly the pilots. We were the glamour boys.
CB: Going back to Coastal Command.
GW: Pardon?
CB: Going back to Coastal Command.
GW: Yes.
CB: What was the most difficult part of that?
GW: Monotony. Because if you did an air raid it was a short sharp period of about five hours. If you were in Coastal Command you might be allocated to patrol a vast area of North Sea. It was tedious but dangerous at the same time.
CB: So did you share, is that why you needed two pilots? To share the strain of —
GW: Well, it entirely depended on the length of flights. If you were going to be flying for say five or six hours you always had two pilots. Four hours usually one pilot. And one of your gunners would be trained to be able to fly the plane in an emergency so that if the pilot was shot dead or something one of the aircrew would be able to fly the thing back. Probably not very successfully and probably a very hard landing at the end but at least you’d get, get the plane and the crew back.
CB: We spoke earlier about the disappointment of crew being chopped in their initial training as aircrew, as pilots.
GW: Yes.
CB: How many of your crew had started off pilot training?
GW: Well, I can tell exactly. My, my course consisted of thirty six aircrew cadets and we ended up with fourteen passing out as aircrew, as pilots rather so you know the percentage of passes was quite high really.
CB: Yeah.
GW: But there were many disappointed because almost everybody who went to join aircrew wanted to be a pilot.
CB: Yeah.
GW: And of course it was very disappointing.
CB: Yes.
GW: For many people because the glamour of the whole set up was in the pilot’s responsibility and so on and it was never quite the same for the others although we were all good pals. I mean don’t get me wrong there was no feeling of oh, you know he’s lucky to have got a better job than me. I think we all, we all felt the same. We were doing a job and that was it.
CB: Very often the, as I understand it the air bombers and the navigators had had some pilot training.
GW: Yeah.
CB: So in your crews did you have air bomber or navigator who had had pilot training?
GW: In my crew no but in many crews yes. They started out as pilot trainees, didn’t make the grade as pilots and therefore according to the opinion of the tutors they would decide whether the man was more suited to being a bomb aimer or a navigator than a pilot. It was seldom a navigator that was chopped because generally speaking navigators were the same standard of education and ability as pilots but air gunners and things like that might be chopped if they didn’t measure up to the expectations. No. It brings back a lot talking to you, you know.
CB: Right. Now —
GW: Practically going to put a uniform on.
CB: Quite right. After, after your Coastal Command experience how long was that tour?
GW: How long what?
CB: How long was the tour?
GW: Oh.
CB: On coastal.
GW: Much longer. Bomber Command was very very short really.
CB: Yes.
GW: Coastal Command tours were much longer because they weren’t subject to the considerable element of danger.
CB: Right.
GW: That a Bomber Command tour was.
CB: Right.
GW: No. I was fortunate really because I could well have been posted to Bomber Command. It was just that my particular abilities were more suited to the type of job Coastal Command did which were quite often long, tedious searching flights rather than quick in and out bombing flights.
CB: When, did you fly with Coastal right up to the end of the war or did you get transferred to another task?
GW: No, I, when the war ended I was, I had reached a stage where I was no longer flying because I’d become then a commander of a flight unit so we didn’t fly. Or very seldom flew. We were like the commanding officer of an Army unit really running a squadron. So we didn’t do a lot of flying. In fact, we did very little. We used to do trips from one airfield to another to visit. Visit other crews and that sort of thing but no, no dangerous flying although all flying was dangerous but not too bad.
CB: How did the Coastal Command tour end?
GW: Sorry, I —
CB: How did you end your time in at Coastal Command? They then moved you.
GW: Fifteen. Fifteen flights.
CB: Yes.
GW: And then you came off.
CB: Right.
GW: And then you had a break. Probably put you in a commanding administrative post in an airfield until another six or eight months and then you could choose. You could either go back to flying, actually bombing and war flying or you could continue in an administrative post because that was a fair thing to do because it wasn’t everybody that felt it was nice to go flying again. I certainly wouldn’t have wanted to do another tour. I was quite happy to be commanding a unit on the ground. There was a lot of responsibility but no danger or very little danger.
CB: So we talked about you being commissioned early on. What rank were you when the war was drawing to a close?
GW: I was acting, acting squadron leader. I was flight lieutenant, acting squadron leader.
CB: Yeah.
GW: I don’t know whether we started at the very beginning but I think I told you I went to America to train to be a pilot.
CB: Yes.
GW: That was right at the beginning.
CB: Yes. We covered that. Yes.
GW: We did twelve hours at a place called Booker.
CB: Yes.
GW: That was an assessment when you flew a Tiger Moth with an instructor most of the time to assess whether you had the aptitude to become a pilot. If you passed the twelve hour test then off you went for full training lasting several months and usually, in fact almost every time it was abroad. The training bases were South Africa, Rhodesia, Canada, North America. That was about it.
CB: When you were in Florida what was the general attitude of the Americans when they entertained you? Did they talk about your flying activities in the RAF?
GW: Oh, they were immensely interested. But naturally if you were staying three or four days with them it was impossible to cut out what you did and within the realm of secrecy because one had to be careful not to slip a clanger in but in the realm of secrecy they were very interested and usually very nice. They didn’t know much about flying. They were very inquisitive. They wanted to know a lot about what you did but generally speaking they were very very good.
CB: What was your perception of what they knew about Britain?
GW: They were, they were very pro-British but I think you must realise that wasn’t necessarily average because if they were taking, there were about eight American airfields that trained cadets and if they were, if they were one of those eight airfield they were very pro-British. On the other hand there were probably units arounds America, which we didn’t come across by the way that were very anti, anti-Britain and so on. Generally speaking it was pot luck where you were posted in a way. Although the people, they weren’t obliged to take trainees so you very seldom found any biased hosts because they wouldn’t want to accept a trainee. They certainly, I kept up correspondence and contact with some of them for a very long time because I started going to America on business on regular business trips and I always used to try and leave a day or two to say hello to them because they’d been so kind to us in the war. So most, well they’d all be dead now because they were older than me. I mean I was a very young man to them but well, yes we made good company with the Americans. But it’s strange in a way because they were way out of our class. I mean as I said earlier they were generally speaking very wealthy people whereas most of us were just ordinary Grammar School boys training to be airmen. So we were socially on a different level but we all got on very very well.
CB: So fast forward now to the end of the war. What were you doing at the end of the war? VE Day came.
GW: I decided to make a career of the RAF and I stayed on. And I stayed on, I think I stayed on for another two years and then a friend of mine, a friend of my father rather had a very important job in business and he used to whenever I was on leave he used to say, ‘You know, you’re just the sort of chap I’d like to be working in my company.’ And when, when the war ended he kept at me. He kept saying, you know, ‘Don’t forget if you want to leave the Air Force there’s a job waiting for you. Eventually I was attracted to this idea and so I took the job and I was very lucky because it was a very good job. But I still couldn’t get flying out of my system.
CB: So what was the job and what was the company?
GW: It was the Player’s Cigarette Company who were based in Nottingham. Their factory is in Nottingham and he was the head of sales for them. He ran the whole of their sales team. He smoked continually to advertise his own product, I think.
CB: So what did you do there?
GW: Eh?
CB: What did you do there at Player’s?
GW: Oh, I joined them as a trainee salesman and moved up through their sales force to be responsible for sales in a particular area. The area varying according to where you were needed most in other words and of course it was just about the most pleasant sales job you could ever have because you had never had to sell Player’s cigarettes. Everybody bought them. So your job was to keep social company with the people that were buying. The shopkeepers and things. But you never had to sell them because everybody wanted them and the shopkeeper he was bound to stock them because most of his customers wanted them. So it was [pause] and another thing was that if you worked for Player’s you were rather regarded by shopkeepers and things as being working for a superior company because Player’s was a very good company to work for. They were very good to their employees and looked after them very well and so on. Yet I hardly every smoked a cigarette in my life. I occasionally had a cigar but I ever seldom smoked cigarettes. I’ve been talking to you with my eyes closed and then I wake up and see all my audience. Diana has found something she didn’t know you see.
DW: Well, somebody has.
GW: I hope I didn’t give any secrets way.
CB: We haven’t covered one very important point. How did you meet Diana?
Diana was a kid sister. She was [pause] she was sixteen I think. My best friend was my age at that time in [unclear]. What age would I have been then? I don’t know.
DW: I was fourteen.
GW: Diana was still at school and I used to go and visit my best friend and I used to see this schoolgirl home from school and I became rather attracted to her. But she didn’t become attracted to me so there was rather a long wait until I could win her heart. Sitting there. The product of it there.
CB: A good move altogether wasn’t it?
GW: Yeah. Yeah.
CB: Good. We’ll pause there thank you.
[recording paused]
DW: On and off a bit yes but I didn’t see —
GW: Have to yes.
DW: Much of the Doodlebugs.
GW: I think she was only six.
DW: Yeah.
Other: Remarkable how the memory, how it comes back. I’m absolutely shocked.
DW: Well, I am.
Other: That you got as much out of dad.
DW: With dad.
Other: Yeah.
DW: Absolutely shocked.
CB: But just going back on a couple of bits. What knowledge and experience did you have about the receiving end of the German assault on Britain?
GW: Oh pretty well much because first of all I was at the end of it very often in, say if Nottingham was being bombed or something and we were well aware of the magnitude of the force because they had a pretty powerful Air Force you know and it was part of our training to understand the type of aircraft we were going to be flying against and also the number of aircraft and trained airmen they had. So we were fairly briefed. We had good briefing. And there was quite a lot of foreign aid by spies and Dutch people, those sort of people feeding information back to England about what the Germans were up to and that all fed back you know. It was quite interesting. But no, I’ve, well I’ve known Diana since she was how old were you?
DW: Fourteen.
GW: Fourteen.
CB: Yes.
GW: So there we are.
CB: But in the wider perspective you mentioned Doodlebug a minute ago. What did you know about people being on the receiving end of —
GW: Well, I think —
CB: You mentioned Doodlebug a bit earlier.
GW: Yes.
CB: What do you remember about people being on the receiving end of V-1s and V-2s?
GW: Well, very little because for the period of the Doodlebug I was in the forces so I wasn’t, I mean Nottingham for instance where my parents lived and I lived for a time it was quite heavily attacked by Doodlebugs. But I was never involved in it because I was away in the forces. But they used to get about, I think at Nottingham I think they used to get about six or eight a night going in, in to the city. Not a nice thing, you know. And I did, my parents lived there and I went on leave once or twice and I’d rather have been in the Air Force fighting a fight because you’d be sitting there like we are now having a nice chat and all the time they’d be a buzzing noise and then it stopped and you were waiting and thought God I wonder where that’s going to end up? You never knew where they were going to land.
CB: Yes.
GW: A nasty feeling. Did you experience them?
CB: No. I was evacuated to Yorkshire.
GW: Oh.
CB: Where I had to eat fish. Anyway, so thank you very much indeed for that. That’s —
GW: Well, it’s a great pleasure to talk to you.
CB: Thank you, George Williams.
GW: You’ve made me think about things that I had forgotten.
CB: Just one other thing though. To what extent were you aware of the awards people received for their gallantry? DFCs. DFMs.
GW: Well, yes because the people that received those awards they were usually pretty experienced pilots whose name came up quite a lot during raids. You know, you’d see the squadron leader so and so flew over this, that and the other and so you to some degree you knew, you knew quite a lot about them because the government made a point of promoting them for morale to make people think, you know that we’d got people actually winning the war. And so, and they were treated with a lot of respect by, by the general public. It’s interesting really to reminisce through that period. You forget all about it for years and years and years and the recent times suddenly all coming back in memory. There we go. And now I’m going on another adventure aren’t I really in involving helpful thoughts about the Second World War. There we go.
CB: Thank you.
[recording paused]
CB: Do you want to explain a bit more about that?
Other: I was thinking about was one was the situation in America.
CB: Ok.
Other: Yes.
[recording paused]
CB: You mentioned Sunderlands but did you ever fly a Sunderland yourself?
GW: No. I flew in them.
CB: Yes.
GW: Quite a number of times as second pilot.
CB: Right.
GW: Because you know there was a technique to flying them and unless you were in a sudden, sudden, I can’t say the word, Sunderland unit you didn’t really have enough time to learn the technique. You could go in one alongside the pilot, watch him but I would never have dreamt of landing a submarine on a, sorry not a submarine.
CB: A Sunderland on the sea.
GW: On the sea.
CB: Particularly on a flat sea.
GW: I would have quite like to have done it actually. I think they used to be very spectacular to see them come in to land swooshing across the waves.
CB: Yes.
GW: I would like, I would have liked that.
CB: And the take off? What about that? Because you had to get it up on to the lip didn’t you?
GW: Yes, but surprisingly enough take offs were very quick because they had very powerful engines. You’d be surprised. They flew them a lot of out Southampton water where they, where they were built and it was amazing what a short take off run they made. I was frequently amazed that you sort of saw them come out of the hangar down the slip way on the water and then all of a sudden they were away. They were gone. Amazing. But I suppose you don’t get the draught. The drag on the hull that you get on wheels on a plane. It must be like that. I never flew one so I don’t know.
CB: Just casting your mind back again one of the points that’s come up in an earlier interview with somebody on the Arnold Scheme trained in America —
GW: Yeah.
CB: Is the variation of the social round that is to do with the black population and because the Americans apparently didn’t liaise in those days with blacks then the guests as they were from Britain were discouraged from linking with them. What is your experience with that?
GW: In Florida there was a very very white population because it was one of the rich resorts that the rich white Americans chose to live. So you didn’t really have a white black situation in the part where I was which was the State of Florida. Further north you did. I don’t think I would have enjoyed working in those circumstances because there was a big snob element in it and I don’t think I would have liked that. Although I might have done. I don’t know. But there’s certainly nothing like that in Florida or the other southern states. It’s amazing when we talk like this after when I, when I left [unclear] when I left the Air Force rather went into business I travelled a great deal to a great many places and its surprising how every time we talk something of another way of life comes back in to my mind as well you know. Working in commerce. But I never get fed up of a chat about things but sometimes I get a bit harassed because I can’t remember.
CB: When you left the RAF did you feel the need to have a complete break when you went into commercial life? Or did you continue through RAF Associations.
GW: No. I, the first thing you could do coming out of the Forces you could apply for a place at a University. If you got one fine. So the first thing to do if you had any degree of education was to register with the University, choosing the subject that you particularly wanted to follow and that’s what I did. I left the Air Force. I took a break for, I think probably a couple of months maybe three months and then I went to choose a career. A course career. I don’t know how many people did that. I’m sure that pretty well all officers must have done it because you know there were quite responsible jobs available for someone with the experience of an officer rather than just a trooper you might say.
CB: Of course, there were Reserved Occupations and those who’d worked before the war in some kind of occupation had an employer who was obliged to re-engage them. How did that fit in for you?
GW: Well, I never did attempt to fly for a commercial courier. I came out of the Air Force. I did a bit of flying with the Reserve and then I was offered a job quite a way from aviation through a friend of mine. He offered me a job as it so happened with Player’s Cigarettes that we mentioned earlier and I went on from there. But I never at any time [pause] no I never had, I never had a problem finding work because well first of all it helps having been an officer. That helps quite a bit.
CB: Yeah.
GW: Having friends who know you helps quite a bit.
CB: Yes.
GW: And apparently being reasonably intelligent helps quite a bit so I never had a problem with work at all.
CB: But you didn’t, no. You didn’t actually apply for university because the job came up.
GW: Yes, I didn’t have. Well, no when I left the Air Force I was going to go to university —
CB: Yes.
GW: But I didn’t have to apply as you say because with the standing that I had.
CB: Yes.
GW: As an Air Force officer I was acceptable to any university providing my qualification as an officer were adequate. That was the point. But there was a great deal of demand for university places as you can well imagine.
CB: Yeah.
GW: I mean masses of people were leaving the Forces as I was and looking what to do next and the choice of university was considerable. It so happened that my parents lived in Nottingham so I chose Nottingham University because —
CB: Right.
GW: I lived at home.
CB: Yes.
GW: I didn’t have to go and live in or anything like that. I’d rather, it was very convenient.
CB: Now, a nice sixty four thousand dollar question what was your Service Number?
GW: My Service Number? Do you know if you’d asked me that question the year before last I’d have rattled it off like that. I’ve forgotten it. I’ve forgotten it.
CB: Well, you’ve got two. Yes.
GW: Just on —
CB: Never mind. We’ll check them. Thank you very much indeed.
GW: Well, it’s a great pleasure to talk with you. You’ve made me feel quite proud.
CB: Yes.
GW: I hadn’t realised all the things I had done.
CB: I think the family will be. Excellent.
GW: I’m glad to tell them about that. Yeah.
Other: Is there an opportunity for one more question?
[recording paused]
GW: When you came out of the forces and you had the attribute of reasonable intelligence you were accepted by almost any university.
GW: Yes.
GW: Provided you were wanting, you chose a subject which they were specialist in really.
Other: What subject did you choose?
GW: That’s a very good question. I basically decided to go into agriculture and I chose the idea of running a farming career but I backed off that one. I don’t know why. I can’t remember. Probably I didn’t like cows.
Other: So you took up another subject.
GW: Yes.
Other: Yes. Can you remember what subject?
GW: Well, I didn’t really. The subject picked up me. There was a friend of my father who worked with Player’s Cigarettes and I used to meet him. Mt father. I used to meet him Saturday morning with some other friends in a local inn, pub and we used to drink. And then he said one day, ‘Well, now you’re coming out of the Army,’ he said, ‘How would you like to work with John Player?’ Because he was senior manager and I said, ‘Well, what’s the job.’ So we went through it and he described it and it seemed just the thing to me so I said yes and I joined John Player and that’s how I first started work.
Other: Right. So the subject you did at university helped you in the Player’s job did it?
GW: Oh yes, in that it didn’t help me in the academic sphere. It helped me sort of gave me confidence and it helped me socially to meet people and that sort of thing.
Other: Can you tell me something about what it was like to go to University after flying an aircraft and commanding men?
GW: Well, funnily enough it wasn’t all that different because most of the people who were at university with me had been doing the same thing themselves. They’d been in the Army or the Air Force and they normally understood that way of life so we all mucked in together and it was almost like continuing being in the Forces though with less discipline. We had fun and yet and yet you were altogether.
Other: It’s generally held that it was a very unusual time to be in University.
GW: Oh.
Other: I mean if you compare it with today.
GW: Oh.
Other: Lots of people often don’t have any motivation.
GW: No.
Other: But I imagine.
GW: That was definitely a good time. Well, it was a time for more than one reason and one of the main ones was that you had acquired in the Forces, in my case the air force, you had acquired a degree of education that you would never have had I don’t think if you’d have gone to work in an office or something. You just had acquired this degree of education that gave you the chance to apply for a job really.
Other: You would have been a few years older by then than the normal entrants for university.
GW: No. I was [pause] I think I was about probably twenty two, twenty three something like that. Twenty two I think probably. I wouldn’t swear by that. I can’t remember.
Other: Ok. So the the usual entry to University before the war would have been I would suspect eighteen. So you would have been about three or four years older.
GW: Yeah.
Other: Than that and one generally matures through that period.
GW: Oh yes.
Other: Now, you had the war as well.
GW: Yes. Oh, much more so.
Other: You must have been superhuman compared to the normal entry.
GW: Absolutely. Yes. No question about that.
Other: Did you feel, did you feel any great onerous responsibility to make good on your studies?
GW: I felt responsibility to myself and my family. Not necessarily the kind of responsibility you’re thinking of with fellow students and things. I don’t know. But no, I was glad I was old enough to appreciate it and not too young to just enter it as a lark you know. Not that I’m saying everybody did.
Other: Yeah.
GW: But there we go.
Other: And there was still plenty of fun just as there was in the Mess.
GW: Oh yes.
Other: Yes. Yeah.
GW: Oh yes.
CB: Just weren’t so destructive.
GW: Nottingham was a brand new university when I, when I entered it. It had only been going for two years. They had lovely new buildings and everything but I just fell into it. I enjoyed it immensely.
Other: Yeah.
CB: Ok.
Other: Thank you.