Interview with Howell Davies
Title
Interview with Howell Davies
Description
Howell grew up on the Glamorgan coast. After the university air squadron, he joined the RAF in April 1962, training on Provosts at RAF South Cerney. He then went to RAF Swinderby and flew the Vampire T11. He subsequently trained on Vulcans at 230 Operational Conversion Unit at RAF Finningley and the Bomber Command Development unit. He joined 50 Squadron at RAF Waddington. Howard flew Chipmunks at Central Flying School and worked as an instructor in several locations. After a refresher course, he returned to fly on Vulcans at RAF Scampton 35 Squadron as pilot leader and pilot instructor, training crews on terrain-following radar. Howell discusses the change from Bomber Command to Strike Command, and feelings around the RAF giving up its nuclear strike capability to the navy. He examines the role of captaincy and piloting. Howell outlines how crews came together and describes target study. He also relates his experience of Quick Reaction Alert. Howell describes low level flying in North America and the United States and flying to Libya, Cyprus and Malta. He was trained to do air-to-air refuelling. Howell enjoyed teaching people to fly and trained the first women at RAF Swinderby. He delineates the training he co-ordinated at RAF Bawtry and the RAF Staff College, Bracknell. His final posting was to RAF Support Command at RAF Brampton. He was also involved in Royal Navy elementary flying training at RAF Topcliffe. In retirement, Howell spent 20 years restoring a Hawker Demon.
Creator
Date
2017-10-09
Coverage
Language
Type
Format
00:56:44 audio recording
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Rights
This content is available under a CC BY-NC 4.0 International license (Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0). It has been published ‘as is’ and may contain inaccuracies or culturally inappropriate references that do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the University of Lincoln or the International Bomber Command Centre. For more information, visit https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ and https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/omeka/legal.
Identifier
ADaviesHM171009, PDaviesHM1701
Transcription
NM: So, its Monday the 9th of October. I’m with Squadron Leader Harold Davies in his home. My name is Nigel Moore and I’m going to talk to Squadron Leader Davies about his time in Bomber Command. Can I just start by asking you about your early life, your childhood, growing up and school?
HD: Yes. We always lived on the Glamorgan coast. My father was in the Midland Bank. I first went to school in, primary school in Penarth but that was only for a couple of years and then we moved to Swansea in 1946 when I then went to the local infant school there. I passed the Eleven Plus and went to Swansea Grammar School until the age of thirteen when through Common Entrance I then, as my father and elder brother had, went to Clifton Bristol where I was at, where I was at school. I later went to Kings College, London destined for George’s Hospital intending to do medicine but didn’t finish the course. I was very much involved with the, because in, at school I’d been involved in the RAF section of the CCF and then got a flying scholarship during then which I started at Bristol, finished at Exeter when the Bristol people couldn’t find enough instructors. So, I did a PPL at Exeter. Then when at London I then joined the University Air Squadron and spent perhaps too much time there but, or perhaps too much time doing other things with the result that I became a retired medical student and joined the Air Force. I’d like to think it was because faced with a question of what happens now the idea of going back and trying to repeat medicine was a bit dodgy because I might be getting a bit old. But I’d also go if I left it because the danger at that time going into the Air Force thinking if I go then if I fail pilot training well I could still go back. So, I went to do that and I didn’t fail pilot training so that’s where I ended up and so I then joined the Air Force in April ’62. Through initial training at, oh fiddle. Just near [pause] South Cerney near Cirencester. I can show you all this list from the back of the logbook and the places where I was.
NM: So, talk me through your training. How did you –
HD: Sorry?
NM: Tell me about the training. How did you get on training?
HD: Well, that was fine. The initial training was a sort of initial officer training because of having been in the, in the University Air Squadron I then joined the initial training as a, as an acting pilot officer rather than as an officer cadet so that, that was good. In fact, I got married during that time. I then went to Leeming to train on Jet Provosts. Initially the Mark 3, and then the Mark 4 at the end of which we were meant to be going to Valley to fly the Gnat. And, in fact, my wife and I had already been up there and looked at possible, somewhere to live because being married under the age of twenty six was worse than living in sin and so we didn’t get any, any marriage allowance. Or not full marriage allowance or entitled to live in quarters. In fact, I think marriage allowance we did get some. It was sixteen and four pence a day as I recall. But the early, it was going to be one of the very early courses of the Gnat like number 2 but at the time there were limited number of Gnats there and the story was they had like half a dozen different hydraulic systems. In any event it wasn’t ready for us and so we went to Swinderby and flew the Vampire. The Vampire T-11 which was an extra course added on because that was closing down in favour of the Gnats which were going to be operating at Valley. It caused a little bit of, not friction but a little bit of [pause] because when we first arrived we were the first course at which we got our wings at the end of the basic flying training. That’s to say the Jet Provost course whereas when we arrived at Swinderby the senior course from the old system well they didn’t get their wings until the end of the Advanced Flying Training. And so we were as the new boys were prancing around with shiny wings and they weren’t so –
NM: Yeah.
HD: But we were careful about that. Anyway, there wasn’t, there was no difficulty but one was conscious of the, you know the little frisson perhaps.
NM: Sure. Yeah.
HD: And so there was, and so there was that at Swinderby. In Swinderby. Following on from that I was posted to Vulcans on the Mark 1 and went to the Vulcan course at 230 OCU at Finningley. And after the course there you would be used as a co-pilot and went about, moved across the airfield. Well, the same side the airfield. Moved along the airfield to the Bomber Command Development Unit which had just had initially one and then later on two Vulcans and a Valiant and in which we flew a lot of various trials many of which perhaps most of which were involved in electronics. Some of the radar, some of the early radar, terrain following radar. A lot of the electronic counter measures and the electronic counter counter measures. And then during that time which was usual for co-pilots about sort of half way through, perhaps a little over halfway through we went back to the OCU and did what was called an intermediate co-pilot’s course having done which one could then fly albeit not as captain but fly in the left hand seat as opposed to just sitting in the right hand seat which one then did. After that went back to the OCU and did a captain’s course converting on to the Mark 2, and then went to 50 Squadron which was then at Waddington and finished that off. In fact, just as my crew had sort of broken up we’d broken up. The crew had a detachment over to Butterworth in Malaya which was a training one really flying with the Australian fighters. And I actually sort of went along as an ops officer for that because the crews, it was the end of my tour and the crew broke up. So we came back from that. Where are we? Then went to Central Flying School and flew on Chipmunks. Following which went as an instructor to Liverpool University Air Squadron. Let me see. I’ll get the list in the back of the [pause] It’ll be easier to do this and I’ll miss something out and —
[recording paused]
HD: You know, at the back of the logbook is a sort of summary of where one, where one was. Let me see if I, if I sort of follow that. So, then Liverpool University Air Squadron. A couple of detachments. I went to Manchester for a while after which I think I went to Headquarters of what was then Training Command at Brampton. After which I think I was at Joint [unclear] section then wasn’t I? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. No, I’m up here. Yes. Little Rissington, Liverpool. That’s right. Brampton. That’s right. It is. That was then. Yes. So went on a refresher course. School of Refresher Flying at Leeming and then went back onto Vulcans at Scampton which was then number 35 Squadron where I was then the sort of pilot leader and an instructor. A pilot instructor. And then also I did terrain following. So I was terrain following because we developed the sort of terrain following radar at the time which in theory one could fly along with with all the front blacked out because you wouldn’t [pause] you could fly at low level and follow, well follow the terrain. So, we trained crews on that. Not with both, or the hoods down or the chap who was flying it had a hood. And that was then following them which I went to Headquarters of 1 Group at Bawtry after which I went back on the training wheel and I think Bomber Command must have finished in about ’64, ’65.
NM: ’68.
HD: When it became Strike Command.
NM: Strike Command, yeah. It was ’68.
HD: Because I can remember while at Finningley that’s when it changed and you know the painting on the side of the vehicles instead of saying BC was saying STC.
NM: What was the feeling in the squadron when it, the change and Bomber Command ended? Was there a –
HD: I don’t remember any [pause] I don’t remember any sort of particular indignation although it was a sort of a feel of somehow losing status and being a bit more special I suppose with all the boring old fighter people and boring old truckies and things like that. But I, and that’s about as far as it went. I mean I don’t think we lost much sleep over it.
NM: Right.
HD: I think. I think there was a feeling of lack of status and it was something. It was something special and it was rather good to have been part of, you know. Particularly since it was such, as we saw it as being such an important part of the, of the history of the Royal Air Force’s bombing at the time. Yes.
NM: And likewise, when the RAF had to give up its nuclear strike capability back or over to the Navy in ’69 was there a feeling then in the RAF?
HD: That was a disappointment and we sort of felt that, we certainly felt that somehow we were losing out and didn’t, didn’t quite [pause] I think we recognised that it was probably more, more effective and more efficient than having you know one aircraft per squadron on permanent QRA. But nevertheless, again it was a sort of a feeling a bit of loss of status and a loss of, a loss, a loss of, you know what had been the primary role which after all it was. And the primary role of course being as a deterrent which in a way I think is why some of us felt a little disappointed with the involvement in the Falklands. Not Bomber Command now but with involvement with the, with the Falklands because I thought it would have been a nicer and I appreciate the political thing behind that. But because it was a Demonstration of will I think it would have been a nicer epitaph for the V Force never to have dropped a bomb in anger. As a demonstration of its success if you like.
NM: Yeah.
HD: But that’s —
NM: Yeah. I understand. Yeah.
HD: You know. It was. We shall accept the job as servant of the [pause] well servants of the politicians in effect and somehow it was a shame. And QRA was QRA. It was something one did and one felt it was a very important job.
NM: Let me take you back to your training and you were then posted on to Vulcans. Was that what you would have liked to have done? That was your first choice? For Vulcans or the V, the V Force.
HD: It was. It was certainly high on the list. I think I would have preferred to have gone fast jet or what was then called fast jet but at the time it was, we were told that selection for the V Force was in the higher echelons rather, you know rather than perhaps going to Transport. And it’s not about it being better or less good as a pilot. A matter of temperament I suppose and quite clearly there were a whole lot of very very skilful people who went to the maritime and transport world and with a different role. Because certainly, I think certainly as a V Force captain I used to sort of reckon more than half and half I thought it was probably something like about sixty forty you know, the balance of captaincy and piloting. I wouldn’t like to argue about the figures but I felt that there was perhaps a bit more being the captain as opposed to being the first pilot. And certainly, I actually rather didn’t like the idea as happens on, well used to happen in the maritime world particularly when the captain was not necessarily the first pilot because one could see with the right people of course one could see a sort of potential difficulty.
NM: Sure.
HD: That the captain was not the flying pilot you know might insist that one did something which one thought it was either appropriate to do or not to do. But there again.
NM: But then —
HD: It was also equal opportunities and all that. And having said that many of the non-pilot captains were very very good captains.
NM: Were any of those ever from the back? Back row. The back seats. The three at the back.
HD: I did fly quite often in the back but not, not as a crew member because of course with the, all the V Force the pilot sat on the ejector seats but and it wasn’t very comfortable going. You know, I would quite often fly in the back. Particularly if we were going somewhere or you know just because. I remember one day actually just flying. I think it was on 35 and one of our crews had been over in Goose Bay and there would be the cracked window in front of the captain but it was thought to be safe to fly. But as a precaution we thought well not with the captain with an inexperienced co-pilot in the right-hand seat. And that captain although he may have done a whole tour as a co-pilot one also had to after a bit as a captain to actually have another little check to be a captain in the right-hand seat and he hadn’t done that. So I flew over with, in the back of another squadron’s aircraft to there. Got out of the aircraft, had a cup of coffee thrust in my hand and a pack of tobacco and got back in the other aeroplane in the right-hand seat. Not behind the crack [laughs] but in the right-hand seat and then flew back. So that was on one of the occasions one might have actually been in the back seat. And in fact, I think in all that day I flew, I actually handled the aircraft for about forty seconds when we were arriving back at Waddington. The weather was particularly bad and you know my ticket allowed me to go lower than the chap who was flying it did. Anyway, I mean that’s the sort of thing that somehow one might not fly a great deal in a whole lot because it was really there the other crews tripped.
NM: Sure. Yeah.
HD: But that was a reason for being in the back seat. But as well as the, in the Vulcan the three rear crew members rearward facing they went two seats on the side which particularly if you were going overseas our crew chief, our engineer crew chief you know would fly in them.
NM: So you had more than the normal compliment of five.
HD: Oh yes. Going overseas we would normally be, have one or two crew chiefs.
NM: Ok. Up to seven then in the –
HD: Or occasionally if one was taking somebody important one even might even lay in the prone bomb aiming position underneath the aircraft. The visual bombing. Well, for high level visual bombing. The [pause] occasionally one actually laid somebody out there. Put a sort of mattress. Somebody important perhaps. They’d be able to have a little lie down before he prepared himself for getting out of the aeroplane. Yeah.
NM: So, tell me about your crew. How did the crew come together and then stay together?
HD: Generally, generally speaking going through the OCU [pause] after because they had been trying to follow OCU in terms of the pilot, in terms of the potential captain there would be three months, about three months of Ground School. And so by the time it was getting towards the flying phase people were sort of beginning to sort of gel a bit and one sort of generally sort of let it be known that if there wasn’t any reason for it one would be sort of allocated in groups and would start to gel altogether which people were normally very sensible and most people would get on anyway but, and that normally worked. That certainly worked in my case. Partly by early on chatting together and perhaps, perhaps a nav radar for example speaking to the nav radar staff on the OCU and saying, ‘Well, I don’t want to go with that fella, Davis,’ or whatever it is. As a result then the staff would sort or put together a crew and which usually worked very well. And of course, because we worked together and flew together crews, the best crews became very very close indeed. And because we were close and had to stay together in constituted crews but that, and that was because of the targeting study. The target study we did because with the nuclear role one would have up to about four or five targets to study which we would have to do in a secure vault and be examined on it and checked on it in our different roles because there would be both national and NATO targets which had a different aim. A slightly different aim and then there would be a target that would be allocated to the squadron for QRA and a reserve one and so one had certainly at least four. Well, at least three. And possibly more targets to study which then had to be and one had to do so much target study every month and I’ve forgotten how much it was but and we would do it and then from time one would be examined on it.
NM: So, each crew had a different target or —
HD: Each crew would have. Yes. We didn’t actually [pause] no we didn’t actually all say, ‘Ah, where are you going then, mate?’ Because that was all part of your need to know. Well, we didn’t.
NM: No.
HD: But yes, each crew would have [pause] everybody would have one of the QRA targets because generally because QRA was usually one, one crew from each squadron on the station. So, when I was in QRA at both Scampton and Waddington there would be three aircraft on QRA and so when one took over from one’s other member of the same squadron, a crew from the same squadron on handover one was actually taking over the same aircraft. The same weapon. The same target. And so yeah and we had some things which we knew we all did but we didn’t know about what the others were doing which kept the general thing that some would be national, some would be NATO.
NM: Was there, was there a feeling about having a nuclear strike capability as opposed to conventional strike capability? Was there [pause] or was it just part of the job?
HD: Well yeah. Yes. It was part of the job.
NM: Because this is obviously on a different scale.
HD: We didn’t see a role in having an iron bomb function at all although we did do train because clearly one needs to train by actually dropping something. But there again one had initially a twenty five pound and then later on a rather clever twenty eight pound practice bombs which one could do it and they were, which were designed to aerodynamically replicate what the actual bomb would do both from high level and from low level. But there again a lot of our training would involve a sort of radar interpretation of that. Particularly at high level. You know, when they would be a tone and the RBS using the Radar Bomb Score Unit of which there were several around the country would actually follow the aircraft on radar and hear the ping when they, or rather heard the other way around when the ping stopped and calculate from there where on the forecast winds and everything else where the weapon would have landed. That was later on in code. Passed a score back which we’d like to think would always be Delta Hotel or Direct Hit but it was often something not quite. But there again particularly from high level one wasn’t really all that worried about the odd hundred feet for the special. What we would call special weapons. Yeah.
NM: Yeah. So when you were on QRA and obviously on exercises were any of those exercises almost live to some extent? You didn’t know what was happening until you took, after you had taken off.
HD: Certainly, when the, when the hooter went on in QRA you didn’t know if it was a real one or a practice.
NM: At what point would you find out?
HD: When you were stood down from that state. On QRA we were always on fifteen minute readiness and the siren would go telling us we had to go to start engines. Zero five. Was it zero two or taxi. I think zero two whereas we would then sort of start engines. We would start the engine and wait or it might be taxi which would be to the end of the runway and then wait and then we’d wait and then from the bomber controller from headquarters Bomber Command would come the release from that with, in code and with appropriate code word.
NM: Right. So you never actually got to take off thinking it might be the real thing.
HD: No.
NM: No. It was always —
HD: No.
NM: Yeah.
HD: No. No. That, that would have been a worry. But yeah. But still we didn’t. We didn’t know.
NM: Yeah. Yeah.
HD: Because both with them arming, arming the weapon in at handover we’d take over both the [pause] both the captain and the nav radar would activate the weapon. You know, take the safety catch off if you like. And then in dropping it then there were release buttons to be operated both, by both the nav radar and the captain.
NM: So, the crew. The crew stayed together for a tour. How long did a tour last then?
HD: Two. Two and a half years.
NM: Ok.
HD: About two and a half years. Yeah. Usually the crew did stay together because if particularly at once when one arrived on the squadron there was about thirteen flights which were we called them convex but it was operational conversion which tied in with the actual role as opposed to flying the aircraft. Which was where a lot of my things as an instructor on the squadron would be involved. And once one had done that and then all the target study was done if a crew member changed for whatever reason I would then have to do all the target study all over again.
NM: Sure. Sure. So other, were there any particular incidents while you were on either of your tours on Vulcans that were noteworthy? Scary? Interesting?
HD: Not, not really. Cuba happened but I was, I was actually going through the OCU the first time at the time when we all got rather edgy then.
NM: Yeah.
HD: But there wasn’t anything of that. Of that ilk later on.
NM: But no problems with the aircraft at all during any of your flights.
HD: Well, in terms of Bomber Command of course then the Valiants did of course because the wings fell off. I mean I exaggerate. No. I mean there were aircraft unserviceabilities. There inevitably were. I mean, I lost an engine over Milwaukee but again that was if you sort of fly quite a bit one has odd unserviceability from time to time.
NM: And so you went to the States for what? Exercises? Joint exercises with the Americans or —
HD: We used to go to North America. Well, we used to, we used to go on, we would call them Rangers. Western Ranger going to Canada or the United States. The Lone Rangers going somewhere else or they were often in the Mediterranean area. The reason we were going to North America or Canada we’d go to Canada in Goose Bay a lot because flying low level over the countryside north of there not too many people although some of the people used to get worried that we were upsetting the annual movements of the elk. I don’t think we did really anyway but the territory there was also perhaps quite similar to going over wide spaces of Russia which we could obviously then do without upsetting too many people. And similarly there were low level routes. That was the main reason we went. In the United States as well which when I first used to go there they were OB this and OB that because they were called Oil Burner routes I think the Americans and later on I think they realised that was rather touchy so they were called Olive Branch Routes and that’s rather nice because in Strategic Air Command, in SAC which was the American version of Bomber Command their symbol is that lovely male fist, you know holding a branch of lightning in its hand and the motto, “Peace is our profession.” So they became Olive Branch Routes. And similarly we in good King Idris’ golden time and immediately after we used to go to Libya a lot and fly low level routes and actually flying low level routes but actually dropping weaponry. Normally, early twenty five pound and later on twenty eight pound bombs on the ranges there. One sort of fairly on the, on the northern part. Not going down to, because there were the two airfields there there was Idris itself which was by, on the northwestern coast there and of course El Adem on the northeast side and there were ranges on both of those sides of the country. And I mean they were sort of quite, quite [unclear] and as I say some of this in King Idris’ time and then was it Prince Assam? I can’t remember. And then of course then sort of Colonel Gaddafi took over and it became less friendly to go there and then we used to go to Malta quite a lot and to then fly routes usually over Libya. And of course, Cyprus when and of course as well as all of this this bombing there was a maritime reconnaissance role which was primary. Well, which was primarily 27 Squadron in Vulcans but we had it as a secondary role. So, we would go and do maritime reconnaissance sorties sometimes. We would also do those from Cyprus and Malta. So, as you say about the anxious moments there was a slightly anxious moment going across the bay going to Cyprus and then from Northern Libya actually having anti-aircraft radar tracking us which we could hear and identify and then having a missile lock on which was a bit unnerving but it didn’t launch which was pleasant. By which time of course the AEO had plenty of time. We all had plenty of time to plan, you know the response which would have been both electronic and using chaff you know and manoeuvre as well if we could see it. Anyway, but it didn’t. That didn’t arise.
NM: Yeah. Didn’t happen.
HD: We used to, when I was on 50 we were training to do air to air refuelling because the idea was there was going to be an attachment down to Malaya. Either Singapore or Butterworth I don’t remember which which would have involved air to air refuelling and on 50 Squadron and about [Ed Shearman] was the first one and then Tony Blythe and Peter [Bonfield] and I, I think there was another one. We started training to do that and we were sort of doing quite a few because of course the Vulcan has the probe on which had the facility. Well, once it had been prepared another two or three times and so we did that and started to be checked out. But then the Daily Mail Air Race cropped up so that all the tankers were too busy. You know the Daily Mail Air Race was from the United States to I think the UK because I remember the Harrier landed just behind Kings Cross Station didn’t it?
NM: That’s right.
HD: And won. Anyway, so that didn’t happen. Although actually at the beginning, the beginning of the preparation for the Falklands involvement I was at the time down at Joint [unclear] section at Uxbridge at that. And we understood and we learned that the crew was training in air to air refuelling and I had only fairly recently left 1 Group Bawtry where Air Marshall Sir Michael Knight was AOC and he was actually in charge of doing this training. And I got on fairly well with him and that’s why I rang him up and quickly pointed out that I was about the only chap still in the Air Force who’d actually already been trained in air to air refuelling. To which saving the record he said, ‘Fuck off Harold. I’ve got a war to run.’ [laughs] So so that was my operational career in the things.
NM: You tried.
HD: Yeah. Yes.
NM: So, what was it like going from Vulcans to training on Chipmunks? How did you cope with that transition?
HD: Well, I’d done quite a bit of Chipmunk flying at the beginning both with the University Air Squadron and where was I? And actually, I enjoyed it a lot because I used to maintain that we were the only real flying instructors. Everybody else just ran conversion courses. We were the people who really taught somebody to fly and then they could go and learn about something else. And certainly, in the University Air Squadron world it was, it was a jolly nice atmosphere. A very sort of civilised atmosphere. Again, small units so of course it depended upon the other people but I was always very lucky in that and did odd stints at some other UASs as well and indeed my final flying tour was at the Elementary Flying Training Squadron back at Swinderby where again we taught the people on very first arrival who hadn’t done any earlier flying. And had the first girls. Trained the first girls which was, it was rather nice because when they came the press were quite interested and so and it was agreed after a couple of weeks that they would, we would allow them to come for one day which was fine. And when we started flying them it was from my AOC [pause] AOT, Air Officer Training. His staff would keep on ringing. ‘How are the girls getting on?’ So, I said, ‘Well, the same as the boys. Same as the boys.’ Because that was the message. They were treated exactly the same as the boys which indeed they were. They were, it was, they were a bit different and I don’t mean in the obvious ways but they were a bit different in that it had only been fairly recently in fact, the route had been open for them to fly. And so the first ones weren’t people who had been that was all they had wanted to do ever since they were school girls because the word went around. And the word went around to some people who were already serving. Who were already like the first two girls I had. One was an air trafficker, the other was secretarial. No, she wasn’t. She was a [cryper]. And so they were jolly good people but they hadn’t actually sort of come up with this great burning wish to do it. And which meant that some, certainly some of them coped very very well and some of them, you know eventually when it didn’t go so well would you know would say well this isn’t it. Because actually particularly at that earlier stage when we’d often be suspending people, chopping them you’d say more than perhaps at a later stage and what was usually the case was that when you had somebody in for say that sometimes it was mega disappointment but more often it was relief. Which was when you got to that stage you know the person knew it was going that way, knew it had been jolly difficult anyway and here I am at this early stage.
NM: Yes.
HD: And some would not fly at all. Some would transfer to navigator or something like that. I enjoyed the instructional role. Yeah.
NM: What about the staff role at Bawtry? What, what was your role there?
HD: Bawtry. It was called Squadron Leader Vulcan Training which was actually coordinating. Coordinating the training because my, my colleague in the office was a navigator and he was particularly on the bombing side and it was coordinating the pilot training, the crew training. Both of us liaising with the overseas training. The syllabus. And oh well and actually very very much what the training involved and the orders. You know, the standing orders, the group staff instructors and things like this. Well, the danger which of course they get bigger and bigger and bigger and then somebody has a big clear out and you know it’s all nice and thin again and, but to try to keep all those things in perspective and the flight safety aspects of flying within the, within the [pause] well within the Vulcan world.
NM: So you were still connected to the Vulcan Force at that time.
HD: I’m sorry?
NM: You were still connected to the Vulcan Force from the start.
HD: Oh well, yes it was primary and we would occasionally go and fly with other squadrons. That was a happy tour. Yes. Yes.
NM: And the Staff College at Bracknell? What was your role there?
HD: At Bracknell a thing called the individual, Individual Staff Studies and it was a thing which people would do as a sort of middle, middle level flight lieutenants, junior squadron leaders and it was a pre-requisite before any further stage of staff training and it was a correspondence course of which we were three teams. A couple of, a couple of pilots. A couple of —
PD: Do you want a cup of tea or coffee or something?
NM: No. I’m fine at the moment.
PD: Quite sure.
NM: Yeah, thank you.
PD: Later thanks. My son, Peter.
NM: Ok.
HD: And there were three. Three groups. Generally, the leader of each group was a retired well no generally was a retired officer, RO post and then the actual tutors on it were about two serving people and two retireds and then there was an English language tutor and a boss and secretarial staff and each team would have about eighty students at any one time. The course actually lasted about eighteen months and it was a mixture of service writing and all the things that go with that. The various sorts of forms and orders and the like and a bit of professional stuff not to do with any sort of techniques or operational things but to do with politics, principles of war, the laws. The laws of war, the laws of armed conflict and things like that and I found it at the point where it got really involved in it. I remember quite early on because when the first day course was running and then the assignment was due in by a certain date so about the day before the staff would, you know take about four or five, four of them and to anonymize them and then we’d all have them and mark them and then have a conference and you know probably decide what the pink was and what was going to be the answer and how marking was going to be done. And I remember saying, I hadn’t been there for very long and we were having quite a heated discussion about a comma. Whether it was apparently a comma or whether it was a superfluous one and we were getting quite excited and I was thinking, God if all my friends could see me now and I’m getting quite excited about this as well. And you can imagine how one does actually get really quite involved in it.
NM: Yeah.
HD: You know, and anyway so that was while I was in there.
NM: What about your final postings in the RAF? What were they involved with?
HD: So, that was at Brampton as well and indeed —
NM: Oh, ok.
HD: There was FT1A again, but staffing. Very in the training world primarily. Well, in in the training world the whole of it really. Again coordinating things. Coordinating but primarily in the primary and basic. That’s to say the Chipmunk bit and then the Jet Provost bit or later on the Tucano bit. And then some of the Chipmunks then and earlier on to the Grob. To the Tucano. I have a mental block here. I don’t mean to go on. I mean the Tucano but the Grob, the Grob Tutor and again the syllabi. The having to work out which is always a pain every year basically whether one could afford more aircraft or more staff and of course the trouble is with anything to do with MOD you asked four different officers for the price of something you get four different answers because they were including different things or different aspects of things you know. Important if you were actually training overseas students or whatever and how much one was going to charge them. Staffing suspensions because the suspensions would certainly at the high level would always go through the Command Headquarters which in a way was more like a Group in terms of its status rather than [pause] or rather we were a Group within the Command because by that time it had then become RAF Support Command which was sort of everything that wasn’t Strike. Because when I first joined it was Flying Training Command and then Training Command and then Support Command. RAF Support Command. Again, I was able to get and as well as that involvement with the Royal Navy Elementary Flying, Flying Training which we did at Topcliffe under the RAF auspices. So being involved in their, in their side as well. Again, the syllabus training comes with other staff and so on. Yeah.
NM: So, you retired from the RAF at fifty five was it?
HD: Yes.
NM: That was just, was that a natural thing to do or did you just really wanted to do something else? Or was it time to go?
HD: Well, it was the natural thing to do. I mean, it’s what the engagement was until although I then did continue flying for another ten years on and off at the Air Experience Flight initially at Cambridge and then at Wyton.
NM: Oh right. So that was in the Reserve was it or —
HD: Yes. Yeah.
NM: I see.
HD: That wasn’t every day but that was two or three, usually a couple of days a week sort of thing.
NM: You were a flying instructor at Cambridge on the Chipmunks.
HD: Yes. Initially I was a staff pilot and then became a checker outer later on. Yeah.
NM: Ok. So, you carried on flying for another ten years.
HD: Yes. Yes, it was then Chipmunks and then it was Bulldogs for a while and then Tutors and I left about a couple of months before I needed to because the propeller fell off. Well, they had problems with propellers on the Tutors and so they were grounded then for months.
NM: Right.
HD: Yeah. During which time, you know I was fading away. Yeah. Yeah.
NM: So, tell me about your post RAF life apart from —
HD: Sorry? Say again.
NM: Tell me about after. After the RAF. Your retirement and apart from the flying on Chipmunks what else have you done?
HD: Well, I have been involved in the restoration of the —
NM: The Hawker Demon.
HD: Yes.
NM: I found that on the website the other day. I was very impressed. Tell me. Tell me about that.
HD: Well, it started off as a big project between my, or a plot between my son and my wife to give the old codger something to engage him in his retirement. A modest little project and of course it turned out to be completely and utterly immodest and it wasn’t little either. So it took about nineteen years. Twenty years of work and I’m not mentioning that I wouldn’t dare get but and then now we’ve been flying for oh seven or eight years at various displays around. Largely at Shuttleworth but also other places like Cambridge and Duxford and Goodwood and other. And really what I want is I want someone to come along and buy it.
NM: So, it’s based at Shuttleworth is it?
HD: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
HD: Yeah.
NM: So how heavily were you involved in the restoration and the getting it back to the airworthy state? I mean you owned it but —
HD: Well, I have been there almost daily.
NM: Right
HD: With the engineer. I mean I’ve been involved with doing things but as I say I’m not an engineer so I mean I must say that earlier on it was rather a sort of mixed thing. I’d go down there and they say, ‘Oh. We’ve got twenty four of these.’ You know. And I’d say, ‘Oh, isn’t that exciting?’ Yeah. So it was difficult getting excited about brackets and things like that. However, we got the various bits and actually found some bits in a river in Dublin which was interesting because we got word because there had been some in the Irish Air Force and we discovered or somebody let us know that a chap who was a sort of a scrap metal dealer had had a couple of them and was using some of it to shore up the bank of the river going around his yard. So myself and the chief engineer went. Went over and we were sort of wandering in this river jumping, he was jumping around excitedly. He’d found a bracket with a mark on. ‘Look at this.’ Which was exciting because again it gave us a few more original bits but also just a little more information because initially, you know companies were very very reluctant to give away too many of their old drawings which one might somehow acquire. Because at that time I think early on it was just afterwards I think Cessna had nearly gone out of business because there was a [pause] I mean, this isn’t the right story but it was something along the lines oh the pilot’s note didn’t tell you you shouldn’t do an approach inverted and pull up or whatever it was. You know, the instructions aren’t there and you know getting product liability and all the other sorts of rubbish. And so people, the companies got very very sensitive about giving things away. But again, I think we sort of acquired things in various ways from different around about libraries and the like. So we’ve got quite a lot of the information now.
NM: So, it must be very rare. There can’t be very many Demons still flying.
HD: Sorry?
NM: There can’t be very many Demons still flying.
HD: No. One.
NM: This is the only one is it?
HD: The only one in the world.
NM: Right. Ok.
HD: There was a chap in Australia who was doing one but we were fairly confident he was never going to get on because he was that sort of chap. Always doing the work that way and in fact he didn’t. We did get quite a bit of engine from there because of course the Australians had some.
NM: Ok.
HD: But no there’s nothing else. There were a couple of other Hawker biplanes you know around. Nimrods. Yeah. And so there were a couple at Duxford but no other Demon. Yeah.
NM: So quite a sense of pride when you see it.
HD: Well, yes and of course the trouble is in a way when I say I want someone to buy it that the people who go to all the air shows are a lot of very enthusiastic. Everyone calls them anoraks and I don’t actually mean to be disparaging because a lot of them are very very knowledgeable but they sort of regard it as people’s duty to keep the aircraft nice and flying for them to see which is fair enough and as I say they are often very very knowledgeable indeed and know every nut and bolt in something. But it’s frustrating because just keeping it at Shuttleworth I sort of pay for the hangar by doing four displays a year is our deal.
NM: Ok.
HD: Yeah. Yeah.
NM: A bartering system works.
HD: Yeah. It does.
NM: So, what’s your feeling generally about your time in the RAF and Bomber Command in particular? What’s your, when you look back and reflect?
HD: I’m pretty content. I enjoyed almost all of it. I say that not because I’ve great some things in the back of my mind because I can’t think of one at the moment to qualify that but I’m, I’ve enjoyed almost all of it and seen some lovely people. Going to a funeral next week actually of one of my old radars. I would have done some things differently but then I think we can always look back in any lifetime when one would have done some things differently. In the Air Force I mean and [pause] but overall [pause] overall I’ve enjoyed it and I think it was worthwhile. Both in the, both in the bomber world in the sense that we didn’t do it and in the training world because we want to see people go on and go flying and presumably doing good things in their life. It’s one of the nice things about doing a bit more flying because when one has a new student and they’re flying and they do their first solo they come back like, you know a dog with two tails. They’re ever so happy and chuffed and everything else and then you develop it a bit and you go on and you’re doing aerobatics and formation as well. And when you come back with somebody after his or her first solo formation then they’re like a dog with three tails because they feel, ‘I’m a pilot now.’ Yes. Some was a bit scary but —
NM: Yeah.
HD: Because the deal always was that or I always used to say to my units that the instructor who has been training them in formation and who says that their ready he’s got to go and lead the formation. Yes. As I say that, but that’s really good and, you know knowing when one was doing that and the student there is holding position reasonably well and will break and come back and things you think we’re getting on.
NM: Good.
HD: Yeah.
NM: Are you still in touch through Squadron Associations or reunions? Obviously you talk about your crew member next week.
HD: Not, not really. I did a little bit with the 50, 61 Squadron. I’m still a member and get the things. I’ve been to it occasionally. But they, I mean I’d go and early on would sort of meet a few people but then I don’t go. There are not so many people I know and all of that. My last crew. My last Vulcan crew we still sit together and see each other. Not very often but sometimes and in fact we’re going, we’ll be meeting, not next week, the 19th for a funeral which is rather sad. The chap died of Alzheimer’s, and he had had been actually going down into that for about seven years. Six or seven years. I remember the last time we went when his wife sort of assessed probably the last time we meet when he knows what’s going on. And that was four or five years ago. Yeah.
NM: You’re still in touch with the crew.
HD: But anyway, so we’ll go up and go to that.
NM: Ok.
HD: Yeah.
NM: Fine. Alright. Shall we leave it there?
HD: Yeah. Yeah. Fine.
NM: I appreciate the time and the talking and the memories.
HD: Well, yes. I hope it will be of some use. I haven’t —
NM: Absolutely.
HD: Yeah.
NM: Absolutely. I mean —
HD: Yeah.
NM: Well, I’ve got a bit of paperwork as always as you would expect.
HD: I’ll just show you earlier.
NM: Ok.
[pause]
HD: I had it in mind to be a single pilot. So this was almost the captain is a bit like this and the co-pilot is a bit like that.
NM: That’s right. Yeah.
HD: Well, certainly if you were sometimes wearing your [unclear] down.
NM: Was there any, were there ever any issues?
HD: Pardon?
NM: Were there ever any issues? The fact that the two pilots had ejector seats and the crew at the back didn’t. Was it just accepted?
HD: No. I mean one was aware of it but it wasn’t [pause] I never remember it being a difficulty with people.
NM: Right.
HD: I mean, they just they knew that’s the way it was.
NM: Yeah. It was the same with the Victors as well, wasn’t it?
HD: Yes. And the Valiant.
NM: That’s right yeah.
HD: Because the Valiant you went out sideways. I mean the rear crew did I mean.
NM: Right.
HD: Yes. Whereas with the Vulcan and even flying with a rear crew was that because the door came down like that and if the ladder wasn’t there because when you got in and shut the door you move the ladder out and put it on the side and that was fine. So, you’d get it and you’d slide down. That’s great. Unless the undercarriage was down and of course the nose wheel was there.
NM: Yeah.
HD: And so the idea was that when that comes out and the struts, the hydraulic struts you could put your foot against that with your hand on one side and you fall out. So as you went out you pulled on the wind tunnel that you actually went out and missed the nose wheel.
NM: Right. Yeah. And you never had to do that. Yeah.
HD: I’m just thinking, I mean this is just talking now but I mean this is a bit random —
HD: Yes. We always lived on the Glamorgan coast. My father was in the Midland Bank. I first went to school in, primary school in Penarth but that was only for a couple of years and then we moved to Swansea in 1946 when I then went to the local infant school there. I passed the Eleven Plus and went to Swansea Grammar School until the age of thirteen when through Common Entrance I then, as my father and elder brother had, went to Clifton Bristol where I was at, where I was at school. I later went to Kings College, London destined for George’s Hospital intending to do medicine but didn’t finish the course. I was very much involved with the, because in, at school I’d been involved in the RAF section of the CCF and then got a flying scholarship during then which I started at Bristol, finished at Exeter when the Bristol people couldn’t find enough instructors. So, I did a PPL at Exeter. Then when at London I then joined the University Air Squadron and spent perhaps too much time there but, or perhaps too much time doing other things with the result that I became a retired medical student and joined the Air Force. I’d like to think it was because faced with a question of what happens now the idea of going back and trying to repeat medicine was a bit dodgy because I might be getting a bit old. But I’d also go if I left it because the danger at that time going into the Air Force thinking if I go then if I fail pilot training well I could still go back. So, I went to do that and I didn’t fail pilot training so that’s where I ended up and so I then joined the Air Force in April ’62. Through initial training at, oh fiddle. Just near [pause] South Cerney near Cirencester. I can show you all this list from the back of the logbook and the places where I was.
NM: So, talk me through your training. How did you –
HD: Sorry?
NM: Tell me about the training. How did you get on training?
HD: Well, that was fine. The initial training was a sort of initial officer training because of having been in the, in the University Air Squadron I then joined the initial training as a, as an acting pilot officer rather than as an officer cadet so that, that was good. In fact, I got married during that time. I then went to Leeming to train on Jet Provosts. Initially the Mark 3, and then the Mark 4 at the end of which we were meant to be going to Valley to fly the Gnat. And, in fact, my wife and I had already been up there and looked at possible, somewhere to live because being married under the age of twenty six was worse than living in sin and so we didn’t get any, any marriage allowance. Or not full marriage allowance or entitled to live in quarters. In fact, I think marriage allowance we did get some. It was sixteen and four pence a day as I recall. But the early, it was going to be one of the very early courses of the Gnat like number 2 but at the time there were limited number of Gnats there and the story was they had like half a dozen different hydraulic systems. In any event it wasn’t ready for us and so we went to Swinderby and flew the Vampire. The Vampire T-11 which was an extra course added on because that was closing down in favour of the Gnats which were going to be operating at Valley. It caused a little bit of, not friction but a little bit of [pause] because when we first arrived we were the first course at which we got our wings at the end of the basic flying training. That’s to say the Jet Provost course whereas when we arrived at Swinderby the senior course from the old system well they didn’t get their wings until the end of the Advanced Flying Training. And so we were as the new boys were prancing around with shiny wings and they weren’t so –
NM: Yeah.
HD: But we were careful about that. Anyway, there wasn’t, there was no difficulty but one was conscious of the, you know the little frisson perhaps.
NM: Sure. Yeah.
HD: And so there was, and so there was that at Swinderby. In Swinderby. Following on from that I was posted to Vulcans on the Mark 1 and went to the Vulcan course at 230 OCU at Finningley. And after the course there you would be used as a co-pilot and went about, moved across the airfield. Well, the same side the airfield. Moved along the airfield to the Bomber Command Development Unit which had just had initially one and then later on two Vulcans and a Valiant and in which we flew a lot of various trials many of which perhaps most of which were involved in electronics. Some of the radar, some of the early radar, terrain following radar. A lot of the electronic counter measures and the electronic counter counter measures. And then during that time which was usual for co-pilots about sort of half way through, perhaps a little over halfway through we went back to the OCU and did what was called an intermediate co-pilot’s course having done which one could then fly albeit not as captain but fly in the left hand seat as opposed to just sitting in the right hand seat which one then did. After that went back to the OCU and did a captain’s course converting on to the Mark 2, and then went to 50 Squadron which was then at Waddington and finished that off. In fact, just as my crew had sort of broken up we’d broken up. The crew had a detachment over to Butterworth in Malaya which was a training one really flying with the Australian fighters. And I actually sort of went along as an ops officer for that because the crews, it was the end of my tour and the crew broke up. So we came back from that. Where are we? Then went to Central Flying School and flew on Chipmunks. Following which went as an instructor to Liverpool University Air Squadron. Let me see. I’ll get the list in the back of the [pause] It’ll be easier to do this and I’ll miss something out and —
[recording paused]
HD: You know, at the back of the logbook is a sort of summary of where one, where one was. Let me see if I, if I sort of follow that. So, then Liverpool University Air Squadron. A couple of detachments. I went to Manchester for a while after which I think I went to Headquarters of what was then Training Command at Brampton. After which I think I was at Joint [unclear] section then wasn’t I? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. No, I’m up here. Yes. Little Rissington, Liverpool. That’s right. Brampton. That’s right. It is. That was then. Yes. So went on a refresher course. School of Refresher Flying at Leeming and then went back onto Vulcans at Scampton which was then number 35 Squadron where I was then the sort of pilot leader and an instructor. A pilot instructor. And then also I did terrain following. So I was terrain following because we developed the sort of terrain following radar at the time which in theory one could fly along with with all the front blacked out because you wouldn’t [pause] you could fly at low level and follow, well follow the terrain. So, we trained crews on that. Not with both, or the hoods down or the chap who was flying it had a hood. And that was then following them which I went to Headquarters of 1 Group at Bawtry after which I went back on the training wheel and I think Bomber Command must have finished in about ’64, ’65.
NM: ’68.
HD: When it became Strike Command.
NM: Strike Command, yeah. It was ’68.
HD: Because I can remember while at Finningley that’s when it changed and you know the painting on the side of the vehicles instead of saying BC was saying STC.
NM: What was the feeling in the squadron when it, the change and Bomber Command ended? Was there a –
HD: I don’t remember any [pause] I don’t remember any sort of particular indignation although it was a sort of a feel of somehow losing status and being a bit more special I suppose with all the boring old fighter people and boring old truckies and things like that. But I, and that’s about as far as it went. I mean I don’t think we lost much sleep over it.
NM: Right.
HD: I think. I think there was a feeling of lack of status and it was something. It was something special and it was rather good to have been part of, you know. Particularly since it was such, as we saw it as being such an important part of the, of the history of the Royal Air Force’s bombing at the time. Yes.
NM: And likewise, when the RAF had to give up its nuclear strike capability back or over to the Navy in ’69 was there a feeling then in the RAF?
HD: That was a disappointment and we sort of felt that, we certainly felt that somehow we were losing out and didn’t, didn’t quite [pause] I think we recognised that it was probably more, more effective and more efficient than having you know one aircraft per squadron on permanent QRA. But nevertheless, again it was a sort of a feeling a bit of loss of status and a loss of, a loss, a loss of, you know what had been the primary role which after all it was. And the primary role of course being as a deterrent which in a way I think is why some of us felt a little disappointed with the involvement in the Falklands. Not Bomber Command now but with involvement with the, with the Falklands because I thought it would have been a nicer and I appreciate the political thing behind that. But because it was a Demonstration of will I think it would have been a nicer epitaph for the V Force never to have dropped a bomb in anger. As a demonstration of its success if you like.
NM: Yeah.
HD: But that’s —
NM: Yeah. I understand. Yeah.
HD: You know. It was. We shall accept the job as servant of the [pause] well servants of the politicians in effect and somehow it was a shame. And QRA was QRA. It was something one did and one felt it was a very important job.
NM: Let me take you back to your training and you were then posted on to Vulcans. Was that what you would have liked to have done? That was your first choice? For Vulcans or the V, the V Force.
HD: It was. It was certainly high on the list. I think I would have preferred to have gone fast jet or what was then called fast jet but at the time it was, we were told that selection for the V Force was in the higher echelons rather, you know rather than perhaps going to Transport. And it’s not about it being better or less good as a pilot. A matter of temperament I suppose and quite clearly there were a whole lot of very very skilful people who went to the maritime and transport world and with a different role. Because certainly, I think certainly as a V Force captain I used to sort of reckon more than half and half I thought it was probably something like about sixty forty you know, the balance of captaincy and piloting. I wouldn’t like to argue about the figures but I felt that there was perhaps a bit more being the captain as opposed to being the first pilot. And certainly, I actually rather didn’t like the idea as happens on, well used to happen in the maritime world particularly when the captain was not necessarily the first pilot because one could see with the right people of course one could see a sort of potential difficulty.
NM: Sure.
HD: That the captain was not the flying pilot you know might insist that one did something which one thought it was either appropriate to do or not to do. But there again.
NM: But then —
HD: It was also equal opportunities and all that. And having said that many of the non-pilot captains were very very good captains.
NM: Were any of those ever from the back? Back row. The back seats. The three at the back.
HD: I did fly quite often in the back but not, not as a crew member because of course with the, all the V Force the pilot sat on the ejector seats but and it wasn’t very comfortable going. You know, I would quite often fly in the back. Particularly if we were going somewhere or you know just because. I remember one day actually just flying. I think it was on 35 and one of our crews had been over in Goose Bay and there would be the cracked window in front of the captain but it was thought to be safe to fly. But as a precaution we thought well not with the captain with an inexperienced co-pilot in the right-hand seat. And that captain although he may have done a whole tour as a co-pilot one also had to after a bit as a captain to actually have another little check to be a captain in the right-hand seat and he hadn’t done that. So I flew over with, in the back of another squadron’s aircraft to there. Got out of the aircraft, had a cup of coffee thrust in my hand and a pack of tobacco and got back in the other aeroplane in the right-hand seat. Not behind the crack [laughs] but in the right-hand seat and then flew back. So that was on one of the occasions one might have actually been in the back seat. And in fact, I think in all that day I flew, I actually handled the aircraft for about forty seconds when we were arriving back at Waddington. The weather was particularly bad and you know my ticket allowed me to go lower than the chap who was flying it did. Anyway, I mean that’s the sort of thing that somehow one might not fly a great deal in a whole lot because it was really there the other crews tripped.
NM: Sure. Yeah.
HD: But that was a reason for being in the back seat. But as well as the, in the Vulcan the three rear crew members rearward facing they went two seats on the side which particularly if you were going overseas our crew chief, our engineer crew chief you know would fly in them.
NM: So you had more than the normal compliment of five.
HD: Oh yes. Going overseas we would normally be, have one or two crew chiefs.
NM: Ok. Up to seven then in the –
HD: Or occasionally if one was taking somebody important one even might even lay in the prone bomb aiming position underneath the aircraft. The visual bombing. Well, for high level visual bombing. The [pause] occasionally one actually laid somebody out there. Put a sort of mattress. Somebody important perhaps. They’d be able to have a little lie down before he prepared himself for getting out of the aeroplane. Yeah.
NM: So, tell me about your crew. How did the crew come together and then stay together?
HD: Generally, generally speaking going through the OCU [pause] after because they had been trying to follow OCU in terms of the pilot, in terms of the potential captain there would be three months, about three months of Ground School. And so by the time it was getting towards the flying phase people were sort of beginning to sort of gel a bit and one sort of generally sort of let it be known that if there wasn’t any reason for it one would be sort of allocated in groups and would start to gel altogether which people were normally very sensible and most people would get on anyway but, and that normally worked. That certainly worked in my case. Partly by early on chatting together and perhaps, perhaps a nav radar for example speaking to the nav radar staff on the OCU and saying, ‘Well, I don’t want to go with that fella, Davis,’ or whatever it is. As a result then the staff would sort or put together a crew and which usually worked very well. And of course, because we worked together and flew together crews, the best crews became very very close indeed. And because we were close and had to stay together in constituted crews but that, and that was because of the targeting study. The target study we did because with the nuclear role one would have up to about four or five targets to study which we would have to do in a secure vault and be examined on it and checked on it in our different roles because there would be both national and NATO targets which had a different aim. A slightly different aim and then there would be a target that would be allocated to the squadron for QRA and a reserve one and so one had certainly at least four. Well, at least three. And possibly more targets to study which then had to be and one had to do so much target study every month and I’ve forgotten how much it was but and we would do it and then from time one would be examined on it.
NM: So, each crew had a different target or —
HD: Each crew would have. Yes. We didn’t actually [pause] no we didn’t actually all say, ‘Ah, where are you going then, mate?’ Because that was all part of your need to know. Well, we didn’t.
NM: No.
HD: But yes, each crew would have [pause] everybody would have one of the QRA targets because generally because QRA was usually one, one crew from each squadron on the station. So, when I was in QRA at both Scampton and Waddington there would be three aircraft on QRA and so when one took over from one’s other member of the same squadron, a crew from the same squadron on handover one was actually taking over the same aircraft. The same weapon. The same target. And so yeah and we had some things which we knew we all did but we didn’t know about what the others were doing which kept the general thing that some would be national, some would be NATO.
NM: Was there, was there a feeling about having a nuclear strike capability as opposed to conventional strike capability? Was there [pause] or was it just part of the job?
HD: Well yeah. Yes. It was part of the job.
NM: Because this is obviously on a different scale.
HD: We didn’t see a role in having an iron bomb function at all although we did do train because clearly one needs to train by actually dropping something. But there again one had initially a twenty five pound and then later on a rather clever twenty eight pound practice bombs which one could do it and they were, which were designed to aerodynamically replicate what the actual bomb would do both from high level and from low level. But there again a lot of our training would involve a sort of radar interpretation of that. Particularly at high level. You know, when they would be a tone and the RBS using the Radar Bomb Score Unit of which there were several around the country would actually follow the aircraft on radar and hear the ping when they, or rather heard the other way around when the ping stopped and calculate from there where on the forecast winds and everything else where the weapon would have landed. That was later on in code. Passed a score back which we’d like to think would always be Delta Hotel or Direct Hit but it was often something not quite. But there again particularly from high level one wasn’t really all that worried about the odd hundred feet for the special. What we would call special weapons. Yeah.
NM: Yeah. So when you were on QRA and obviously on exercises were any of those exercises almost live to some extent? You didn’t know what was happening until you took, after you had taken off.
HD: Certainly, when the, when the hooter went on in QRA you didn’t know if it was a real one or a practice.
NM: At what point would you find out?
HD: When you were stood down from that state. On QRA we were always on fifteen minute readiness and the siren would go telling us we had to go to start engines. Zero five. Was it zero two or taxi. I think zero two whereas we would then sort of start engines. We would start the engine and wait or it might be taxi which would be to the end of the runway and then wait and then we’d wait and then from the bomber controller from headquarters Bomber Command would come the release from that with, in code and with appropriate code word.
NM: Right. So you never actually got to take off thinking it might be the real thing.
HD: No.
NM: No. It was always —
HD: No.
NM: Yeah.
HD: No. No. That, that would have been a worry. But yeah. But still we didn’t. We didn’t know.
NM: Yeah. Yeah.
HD: Because both with them arming, arming the weapon in at handover we’d take over both the [pause] both the captain and the nav radar would activate the weapon. You know, take the safety catch off if you like. And then in dropping it then there were release buttons to be operated both, by both the nav radar and the captain.
NM: So, the crew. The crew stayed together for a tour. How long did a tour last then?
HD: Two. Two and a half years.
NM: Ok.
HD: About two and a half years. Yeah. Usually the crew did stay together because if particularly at once when one arrived on the squadron there was about thirteen flights which were we called them convex but it was operational conversion which tied in with the actual role as opposed to flying the aircraft. Which was where a lot of my things as an instructor on the squadron would be involved. And once one had done that and then all the target study was done if a crew member changed for whatever reason I would then have to do all the target study all over again.
NM: Sure. Sure. So other, were there any particular incidents while you were on either of your tours on Vulcans that were noteworthy? Scary? Interesting?
HD: Not, not really. Cuba happened but I was, I was actually going through the OCU the first time at the time when we all got rather edgy then.
NM: Yeah.
HD: But there wasn’t anything of that. Of that ilk later on.
NM: But no problems with the aircraft at all during any of your flights.
HD: Well, in terms of Bomber Command of course then the Valiants did of course because the wings fell off. I mean I exaggerate. No. I mean there were aircraft unserviceabilities. There inevitably were. I mean, I lost an engine over Milwaukee but again that was if you sort of fly quite a bit one has odd unserviceability from time to time.
NM: And so you went to the States for what? Exercises? Joint exercises with the Americans or —
HD: We used to go to North America. Well, we used to, we used to go on, we would call them Rangers. Western Ranger going to Canada or the United States. The Lone Rangers going somewhere else or they were often in the Mediterranean area. The reason we were going to North America or Canada we’d go to Canada in Goose Bay a lot because flying low level over the countryside north of there not too many people although some of the people used to get worried that we were upsetting the annual movements of the elk. I don’t think we did really anyway but the territory there was also perhaps quite similar to going over wide spaces of Russia which we could obviously then do without upsetting too many people. And similarly there were low level routes. That was the main reason we went. In the United States as well which when I first used to go there they were OB this and OB that because they were called Oil Burner routes I think the Americans and later on I think they realised that was rather touchy so they were called Olive Branch Routes and that’s rather nice because in Strategic Air Command, in SAC which was the American version of Bomber Command their symbol is that lovely male fist, you know holding a branch of lightning in its hand and the motto, “Peace is our profession.” So they became Olive Branch Routes. And similarly we in good King Idris’ golden time and immediately after we used to go to Libya a lot and fly low level routes and actually flying low level routes but actually dropping weaponry. Normally, early twenty five pound and later on twenty eight pound bombs on the ranges there. One sort of fairly on the, on the northern part. Not going down to, because there were the two airfields there there was Idris itself which was by, on the northwestern coast there and of course El Adem on the northeast side and there were ranges on both of those sides of the country. And I mean they were sort of quite, quite [unclear] and as I say some of this in King Idris’ time and then was it Prince Assam? I can’t remember. And then of course then sort of Colonel Gaddafi took over and it became less friendly to go there and then we used to go to Malta quite a lot and to then fly routes usually over Libya. And of course, Cyprus when and of course as well as all of this this bombing there was a maritime reconnaissance role which was primary. Well, which was primarily 27 Squadron in Vulcans but we had it as a secondary role. So, we would go and do maritime reconnaissance sorties sometimes. We would also do those from Cyprus and Malta. So, as you say about the anxious moments there was a slightly anxious moment going across the bay going to Cyprus and then from Northern Libya actually having anti-aircraft radar tracking us which we could hear and identify and then having a missile lock on which was a bit unnerving but it didn’t launch which was pleasant. By which time of course the AEO had plenty of time. We all had plenty of time to plan, you know the response which would have been both electronic and using chaff you know and manoeuvre as well if we could see it. Anyway, but it didn’t. That didn’t arise.
NM: Yeah. Didn’t happen.
HD: We used to, when I was on 50 we were training to do air to air refuelling because the idea was there was going to be an attachment down to Malaya. Either Singapore or Butterworth I don’t remember which which would have involved air to air refuelling and on 50 Squadron and about [Ed Shearman] was the first one and then Tony Blythe and Peter [Bonfield] and I, I think there was another one. We started training to do that and we were sort of doing quite a few because of course the Vulcan has the probe on which had the facility. Well, once it had been prepared another two or three times and so we did that and started to be checked out. But then the Daily Mail Air Race cropped up so that all the tankers were too busy. You know the Daily Mail Air Race was from the United States to I think the UK because I remember the Harrier landed just behind Kings Cross Station didn’t it?
NM: That’s right.
HD: And won. Anyway, so that didn’t happen. Although actually at the beginning, the beginning of the preparation for the Falklands involvement I was at the time down at Joint [unclear] section at Uxbridge at that. And we understood and we learned that the crew was training in air to air refuelling and I had only fairly recently left 1 Group Bawtry where Air Marshall Sir Michael Knight was AOC and he was actually in charge of doing this training. And I got on fairly well with him and that’s why I rang him up and quickly pointed out that I was about the only chap still in the Air Force who’d actually already been trained in air to air refuelling. To which saving the record he said, ‘Fuck off Harold. I’ve got a war to run.’ [laughs] So so that was my operational career in the things.
NM: You tried.
HD: Yeah. Yes.
NM: So, what was it like going from Vulcans to training on Chipmunks? How did you cope with that transition?
HD: Well, I’d done quite a bit of Chipmunk flying at the beginning both with the University Air Squadron and where was I? And actually, I enjoyed it a lot because I used to maintain that we were the only real flying instructors. Everybody else just ran conversion courses. We were the people who really taught somebody to fly and then they could go and learn about something else. And certainly, in the University Air Squadron world it was, it was a jolly nice atmosphere. A very sort of civilised atmosphere. Again, small units so of course it depended upon the other people but I was always very lucky in that and did odd stints at some other UASs as well and indeed my final flying tour was at the Elementary Flying Training Squadron back at Swinderby where again we taught the people on very first arrival who hadn’t done any earlier flying. And had the first girls. Trained the first girls which was, it was rather nice because when they came the press were quite interested and so and it was agreed after a couple of weeks that they would, we would allow them to come for one day which was fine. And when we started flying them it was from my AOC [pause] AOT, Air Officer Training. His staff would keep on ringing. ‘How are the girls getting on?’ So, I said, ‘Well, the same as the boys. Same as the boys.’ Because that was the message. They were treated exactly the same as the boys which indeed they were. They were, it was, they were a bit different and I don’t mean in the obvious ways but they were a bit different in that it had only been fairly recently in fact, the route had been open for them to fly. And so the first ones weren’t people who had been that was all they had wanted to do ever since they were school girls because the word went around. And the word went around to some people who were already serving. Who were already like the first two girls I had. One was an air trafficker, the other was secretarial. No, she wasn’t. She was a [cryper]. And so they were jolly good people but they hadn’t actually sort of come up with this great burning wish to do it. And which meant that some, certainly some of them coped very very well and some of them, you know eventually when it didn’t go so well would you know would say well this isn’t it. Because actually particularly at that earlier stage when we’d often be suspending people, chopping them you’d say more than perhaps at a later stage and what was usually the case was that when you had somebody in for say that sometimes it was mega disappointment but more often it was relief. Which was when you got to that stage you know the person knew it was going that way, knew it had been jolly difficult anyway and here I am at this early stage.
NM: Yes.
HD: And some would not fly at all. Some would transfer to navigator or something like that. I enjoyed the instructional role. Yeah.
NM: What about the staff role at Bawtry? What, what was your role there?
HD: Bawtry. It was called Squadron Leader Vulcan Training which was actually coordinating. Coordinating the training because my, my colleague in the office was a navigator and he was particularly on the bombing side and it was coordinating the pilot training, the crew training. Both of us liaising with the overseas training. The syllabus. And oh well and actually very very much what the training involved and the orders. You know, the standing orders, the group staff instructors and things like this. Well, the danger which of course they get bigger and bigger and bigger and then somebody has a big clear out and you know it’s all nice and thin again and, but to try to keep all those things in perspective and the flight safety aspects of flying within the, within the [pause] well within the Vulcan world.
NM: So you were still connected to the Vulcan Force at that time.
HD: I’m sorry?
NM: You were still connected to the Vulcan Force from the start.
HD: Oh well, yes it was primary and we would occasionally go and fly with other squadrons. That was a happy tour. Yes. Yes.
NM: And the Staff College at Bracknell? What was your role there?
HD: At Bracknell a thing called the individual, Individual Staff Studies and it was a thing which people would do as a sort of middle, middle level flight lieutenants, junior squadron leaders and it was a pre-requisite before any further stage of staff training and it was a correspondence course of which we were three teams. A couple of, a couple of pilots. A couple of —
PD: Do you want a cup of tea or coffee or something?
NM: No. I’m fine at the moment.
PD: Quite sure.
NM: Yeah, thank you.
PD: Later thanks. My son, Peter.
NM: Ok.
HD: And there were three. Three groups. Generally, the leader of each group was a retired well no generally was a retired officer, RO post and then the actual tutors on it were about two serving people and two retireds and then there was an English language tutor and a boss and secretarial staff and each team would have about eighty students at any one time. The course actually lasted about eighteen months and it was a mixture of service writing and all the things that go with that. The various sorts of forms and orders and the like and a bit of professional stuff not to do with any sort of techniques or operational things but to do with politics, principles of war, the laws. The laws of war, the laws of armed conflict and things like that and I found it at the point where it got really involved in it. I remember quite early on because when the first day course was running and then the assignment was due in by a certain date so about the day before the staff would, you know take about four or five, four of them and to anonymize them and then we’d all have them and mark them and then have a conference and you know probably decide what the pink was and what was going to be the answer and how marking was going to be done. And I remember saying, I hadn’t been there for very long and we were having quite a heated discussion about a comma. Whether it was apparently a comma or whether it was a superfluous one and we were getting quite excited and I was thinking, God if all my friends could see me now and I’m getting quite excited about this as well. And you can imagine how one does actually get really quite involved in it.
NM: Yeah.
HD: You know, and anyway so that was while I was in there.
NM: What about your final postings in the RAF? What were they involved with?
HD: So, that was at Brampton as well and indeed —
NM: Oh, ok.
HD: There was FT1A again, but staffing. Very in the training world primarily. Well, in in the training world the whole of it really. Again coordinating things. Coordinating but primarily in the primary and basic. That’s to say the Chipmunk bit and then the Jet Provost bit or later on the Tucano bit. And then some of the Chipmunks then and earlier on to the Grob. To the Tucano. I have a mental block here. I don’t mean to go on. I mean the Tucano but the Grob, the Grob Tutor and again the syllabi. The having to work out which is always a pain every year basically whether one could afford more aircraft or more staff and of course the trouble is with anything to do with MOD you asked four different officers for the price of something you get four different answers because they were including different things or different aspects of things you know. Important if you were actually training overseas students or whatever and how much one was going to charge them. Staffing suspensions because the suspensions would certainly at the high level would always go through the Command Headquarters which in a way was more like a Group in terms of its status rather than [pause] or rather we were a Group within the Command because by that time it had then become RAF Support Command which was sort of everything that wasn’t Strike. Because when I first joined it was Flying Training Command and then Training Command and then Support Command. RAF Support Command. Again, I was able to get and as well as that involvement with the Royal Navy Elementary Flying, Flying Training which we did at Topcliffe under the RAF auspices. So being involved in their, in their side as well. Again, the syllabus training comes with other staff and so on. Yeah.
NM: So, you retired from the RAF at fifty five was it?
HD: Yes.
NM: That was just, was that a natural thing to do or did you just really wanted to do something else? Or was it time to go?
HD: Well, it was the natural thing to do. I mean, it’s what the engagement was until although I then did continue flying for another ten years on and off at the Air Experience Flight initially at Cambridge and then at Wyton.
NM: Oh right. So that was in the Reserve was it or —
HD: Yes. Yeah.
NM: I see.
HD: That wasn’t every day but that was two or three, usually a couple of days a week sort of thing.
NM: You were a flying instructor at Cambridge on the Chipmunks.
HD: Yes. Initially I was a staff pilot and then became a checker outer later on. Yeah.
NM: Ok. So, you carried on flying for another ten years.
HD: Yes. Yes, it was then Chipmunks and then it was Bulldogs for a while and then Tutors and I left about a couple of months before I needed to because the propeller fell off. Well, they had problems with propellers on the Tutors and so they were grounded then for months.
NM: Right.
HD: Yeah. During which time, you know I was fading away. Yeah. Yeah.
NM: So, tell me about your post RAF life apart from —
HD: Sorry? Say again.
NM: Tell me about after. After the RAF. Your retirement and apart from the flying on Chipmunks what else have you done?
HD: Well, I have been involved in the restoration of the —
NM: The Hawker Demon.
HD: Yes.
NM: I found that on the website the other day. I was very impressed. Tell me. Tell me about that.
HD: Well, it started off as a big project between my, or a plot between my son and my wife to give the old codger something to engage him in his retirement. A modest little project and of course it turned out to be completely and utterly immodest and it wasn’t little either. So it took about nineteen years. Twenty years of work and I’m not mentioning that I wouldn’t dare get but and then now we’ve been flying for oh seven or eight years at various displays around. Largely at Shuttleworth but also other places like Cambridge and Duxford and Goodwood and other. And really what I want is I want someone to come along and buy it.
NM: So, it’s based at Shuttleworth is it?
HD: Yes.
NM: Yeah.
HD: Yeah.
NM: So how heavily were you involved in the restoration and the getting it back to the airworthy state? I mean you owned it but —
HD: Well, I have been there almost daily.
NM: Right
HD: With the engineer. I mean I’ve been involved with doing things but as I say I’m not an engineer so I mean I must say that earlier on it was rather a sort of mixed thing. I’d go down there and they say, ‘Oh. We’ve got twenty four of these.’ You know. And I’d say, ‘Oh, isn’t that exciting?’ Yeah. So it was difficult getting excited about brackets and things like that. However, we got the various bits and actually found some bits in a river in Dublin which was interesting because we got word because there had been some in the Irish Air Force and we discovered or somebody let us know that a chap who was a sort of a scrap metal dealer had had a couple of them and was using some of it to shore up the bank of the river going around his yard. So myself and the chief engineer went. Went over and we were sort of wandering in this river jumping, he was jumping around excitedly. He’d found a bracket with a mark on. ‘Look at this.’ Which was exciting because again it gave us a few more original bits but also just a little more information because initially, you know companies were very very reluctant to give away too many of their old drawings which one might somehow acquire. Because at that time I think early on it was just afterwards I think Cessna had nearly gone out of business because there was a [pause] I mean, this isn’t the right story but it was something along the lines oh the pilot’s note didn’t tell you you shouldn’t do an approach inverted and pull up or whatever it was. You know, the instructions aren’t there and you know getting product liability and all the other sorts of rubbish. And so people, the companies got very very sensitive about giving things away. But again, I think we sort of acquired things in various ways from different around about libraries and the like. So we’ve got quite a lot of the information now.
NM: So, it must be very rare. There can’t be very many Demons still flying.
HD: Sorry?
NM: There can’t be very many Demons still flying.
HD: No. One.
NM: This is the only one is it?
HD: The only one in the world.
NM: Right. Ok.
HD: There was a chap in Australia who was doing one but we were fairly confident he was never going to get on because he was that sort of chap. Always doing the work that way and in fact he didn’t. We did get quite a bit of engine from there because of course the Australians had some.
NM: Ok.
HD: But no there’s nothing else. There were a couple of other Hawker biplanes you know around. Nimrods. Yeah. And so there were a couple at Duxford but no other Demon. Yeah.
NM: So quite a sense of pride when you see it.
HD: Well, yes and of course the trouble is in a way when I say I want someone to buy it that the people who go to all the air shows are a lot of very enthusiastic. Everyone calls them anoraks and I don’t actually mean to be disparaging because a lot of them are very very knowledgeable but they sort of regard it as people’s duty to keep the aircraft nice and flying for them to see which is fair enough and as I say they are often very very knowledgeable indeed and know every nut and bolt in something. But it’s frustrating because just keeping it at Shuttleworth I sort of pay for the hangar by doing four displays a year is our deal.
NM: Ok.
HD: Yeah. Yeah.
NM: A bartering system works.
HD: Yeah. It does.
NM: So, what’s your feeling generally about your time in the RAF and Bomber Command in particular? What’s your, when you look back and reflect?
HD: I’m pretty content. I enjoyed almost all of it. I say that not because I’ve great some things in the back of my mind because I can’t think of one at the moment to qualify that but I’m, I’ve enjoyed almost all of it and seen some lovely people. Going to a funeral next week actually of one of my old radars. I would have done some things differently but then I think we can always look back in any lifetime when one would have done some things differently. In the Air Force I mean and [pause] but overall [pause] overall I’ve enjoyed it and I think it was worthwhile. Both in the, both in the bomber world in the sense that we didn’t do it and in the training world because we want to see people go on and go flying and presumably doing good things in their life. It’s one of the nice things about doing a bit more flying because when one has a new student and they’re flying and they do their first solo they come back like, you know a dog with two tails. They’re ever so happy and chuffed and everything else and then you develop it a bit and you go on and you’re doing aerobatics and formation as well. And when you come back with somebody after his or her first solo formation then they’re like a dog with three tails because they feel, ‘I’m a pilot now.’ Yes. Some was a bit scary but —
NM: Yeah.
HD: Because the deal always was that or I always used to say to my units that the instructor who has been training them in formation and who says that their ready he’s got to go and lead the formation. Yes. As I say that, but that’s really good and, you know knowing when one was doing that and the student there is holding position reasonably well and will break and come back and things you think we’re getting on.
NM: Good.
HD: Yeah.
NM: Are you still in touch through Squadron Associations or reunions? Obviously you talk about your crew member next week.
HD: Not, not really. I did a little bit with the 50, 61 Squadron. I’m still a member and get the things. I’ve been to it occasionally. But they, I mean I’d go and early on would sort of meet a few people but then I don’t go. There are not so many people I know and all of that. My last crew. My last Vulcan crew we still sit together and see each other. Not very often but sometimes and in fact we’re going, we’ll be meeting, not next week, the 19th for a funeral which is rather sad. The chap died of Alzheimer’s, and he had had been actually going down into that for about seven years. Six or seven years. I remember the last time we went when his wife sort of assessed probably the last time we meet when he knows what’s going on. And that was four or five years ago. Yeah.
NM: You’re still in touch with the crew.
HD: But anyway, so we’ll go up and go to that.
NM: Ok.
HD: Yeah.
NM: Fine. Alright. Shall we leave it there?
HD: Yeah. Yeah. Fine.
NM: I appreciate the time and the talking and the memories.
HD: Well, yes. I hope it will be of some use. I haven’t —
NM: Absolutely.
HD: Yeah.
NM: Absolutely. I mean —
HD: Yeah.
NM: Well, I’ve got a bit of paperwork as always as you would expect.
HD: I’ll just show you earlier.
NM: Ok.
[pause]
HD: I had it in mind to be a single pilot. So this was almost the captain is a bit like this and the co-pilot is a bit like that.
NM: That’s right. Yeah.
HD: Well, certainly if you were sometimes wearing your [unclear] down.
NM: Was there any, were there ever any issues?
HD: Pardon?
NM: Were there ever any issues? The fact that the two pilots had ejector seats and the crew at the back didn’t. Was it just accepted?
HD: No. I mean one was aware of it but it wasn’t [pause] I never remember it being a difficulty with people.
NM: Right.
HD: I mean, they just they knew that’s the way it was.
NM: Yeah. It was the same with the Victors as well, wasn’t it?
HD: Yes. And the Valiant.
NM: That’s right yeah.
HD: Because the Valiant you went out sideways. I mean the rear crew did I mean.
NM: Right.
HD: Yes. Whereas with the Vulcan and even flying with a rear crew was that because the door came down like that and if the ladder wasn’t there because when you got in and shut the door you move the ladder out and put it on the side and that was fine. So, you’d get it and you’d slide down. That’s great. Unless the undercarriage was down and of course the nose wheel was there.
NM: Yeah.
HD: And so the idea was that when that comes out and the struts, the hydraulic struts you could put your foot against that with your hand on one side and you fall out. So as you went out you pulled on the wind tunnel that you actually went out and missed the nose wheel.
NM: Right. Yeah. And you never had to do that. Yeah.
HD: I’m just thinking, I mean this is just talking now but I mean this is a bit random —
Collection
Citation
Nigel Moore, “Interview with Howell Davies,” IBCC Digital Archive, accessed June 14, 2025, https://ibccdigitalarchive.lincoln.ac.uk/collections/document/10771.