Interview with John Albert Taplin

Interview with John Albert Taplin

John volunteered to join the RAF in 1940 wanting to become aircrew as a wireless operator as he had an interest in early radios. While awaiting his aircrew application to be processed he did his initial training at Blackpool and then onto RAF Yatesbury to train as a ground wireless operator. He was initially posted to Group headquarters at Huntingdon as a ground wireless operator. John then went back to Yatesbury for a wireless mechanics course and then moved to RAF Horsham St Faiths to 139 Squadron with Blenheims, while he was there he was locally trained and flew as an air gunner.
He then went back to Yatesbury for an aircrew wireless operators course then on to Penrhos for an Air Observers and gunners course. From there John went to 10 OTU at Abingdon, while there he flew on one of the 1,000 bomber operations in a Whitley flying from Stanton Harcourt.
Having finished his course John was posted to 10 Squadron at RAF Leeming, still on the Whitley, the squadron converted to the Halifax, John flew in the Halifax II fitted with Merlin engines. The squadron then moved to RAF Melbourne, in Sept/Oct 1942 John’s crew were posted to Leeming to a new squadron No 408 (RCAF) as part of 6 Group.
On an operation to Hamburg 2/3 February 1943 John’s aircraft was badly damaged and the crew baled out, he recounts the difficulties of bailing out from an out of control aircraft. He landed in a tree and evaded capture for three days.
As a prisoner of war, he exchanged identities with a soldier. He was also on one of the long marches from January to April.

1988-06-09

01:33:11 audio recording

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ATaplinJA880609

BT: This is an interview with Mr Taplin of [redacted] Stevenage. It’s being recorded on the Thursday the 9th of June 1988 by BB Thurlow for the Stevenage Oral Heritage Project. Mr Taplin, good morning.
JT: Alright.
BT: I’d like to start really by just asking you one or two things to establish your, your background. Could I ask you first your full name?
JT: John Albert Taplin.
BT: John Albert Taplin.
JT: Yes.
BT: Yes. And can you tell me when you were born?
JT: Yes, the 10th of March 1922.
BT: I see. And can you tell me where?
JT: Well, yes. It was Redcoat. Redcoat. Titmore Green.
BT: Oh yes. Yes. I know.
JT: It’s a little, well it’s not a hamlet. It’s two. It was two houses I believe near a pond just off the turning of the Redcoats Pub.
BT: Oh yes. I see. Did your parents come from this area?
JT: My mother came from Welwyn. My father’s a very old Stevenage family.
BT: Oh yes. I see.
JT: Yeah.
BT: And —
JT: My mother actually was an orphan.
BT: Oh yes. And your father then was probably in occupation, occupied in some job in Stevenage, was he?
JT: He worked at the ESA like everybody seemed to.
BT: Oh yes. I see. What did he do?
JT: He was a wood machinist.
BT: Oh, I see. Did he just, he just worked there all his life.
JT: Well, he started work at eleven. He was a bullock minder.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And he used to have one of these old musket type guns and put flints in it to keep the crows and that away from the bullocks. Yeah. When he was eleven years old.
BT: Really?
JT: All the way to Graveley. He had to walk there.
BT: Yes.
JT: Yeah. But that was only a part time job after school sort of thing. But I believe he left school about thirteen. Most people did you know because they needed the money. The parents did.
BT: Yes. I see. And, and then I suppose he went sort of straight into ESA. Would that be his first job or —
JT: Yes, he went there. Well, everybody that worked in those days you either worked in a shop, it was very similar when I started work. You either worked in a shop or you worked at the factory. It was known as the factory because it was the only one in the area. There wasn’t anything else. There was no King’s or anything like that.
BT: No.
JT: It was the only factory and that was developed from a foundry from Holborn.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And it made these very old-fashioned type desks you know that —
BT: Yes.
JT: You see now in Eton and Harrow. They still seem to have them you know.
BT: Yeah. I remember them from school. ESA.
JT: Cast iron. Yeah.
BT: Yeah. ESA was a very well-known name to me because ESA was stamped on the cast iron plate, wasn’t it?
JT: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
BT: Moulded on cast iron plane.
JT: Probably got Holborn on it as well because it came from Holborn.
BT: I see. Yes. Well, do you know what, about what year they came down to Stevenage?
JT: I couldn’t remember off hand but it was 1880, 1870, something like that.
BT: Was it? I see. Yes.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yes.
JT: Yeah. Something about that time.
BT: Were you the only child of the family or were there others?
JT: No, there was four of us. Fortunately, we’re all alive. We’re all alive. I’m the eldest son. I’ve got two brothers who also worked at the ESA and a sister that also worked at the ESA during the war.
BT: I see.
JT: And my father worked up all his life. Fifty odd years.
BT: Yes.
JT: And during the war my mother worked there so —
BT: I see.
JT: One or two years we went up there.
BT: Well, when you were born at Redcoats this is a bit outside of Stevenage. A very small hamlet I suppose, wasn’t it?
JT: Well, it’s hardly a hamlet. It’s only two houses you know but it’s still, it actually comes in the parish of Wymondley.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
JT: But we were only there from what my mum and dad were telling me I was only there for about eighteen months and —
BT: Oh, I see
JT: They came in and lived at the High Street. It was a grocer’s shops. Warren’s.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: It used to be, I believe its where the wine shop is now.
BT: Yes, I think so. Yes.
JT: Opposite the pub. Well, they had two rooms above.
BT: Right.
JT: Because it was more convenient for dad to get to work because —
BT: Of course.
JT: Because he’d got to walk you know before they could afford a bike but then everybody seemed to have bikes after that.
BT: Yes. Yeah. I suppose by that time Stevenage had a proper water supply. You didn’t draw your water from a well or anything did you?
JT: No. No. We had a pump. When we were at, my mum told me that I used to sit under the pump and my cousin used to pump the handle and you know when we were about eighteen months, two years old. Yes.
BT: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s —
JT: But in Stevenage they had water.
BT: Yes.
JT: And most of the houses as we came in had gas then. Electric was something wonderful and, but most houses had gas.
BT: Yes, I see. Yes. [unclear]
JT: [unclear] Yes, and heating. That’s right. From our records apparently I nearly died because dad had gone out somewhere one evening and he came back and I was practically black or blue and mum was unconscious.
BT: Oh right.
JT: And apparently the gas, she’d fell asleep and the gas fire had gone out.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: So the gas was still coming through.
BT: Very dangerous.
JT: Yeah.
BT: In those days. Yeah. Right. Very interesting. Yeah.
JT: But I don’t know anything about that.
BT: No, of course. No.
JT: Yeah.
BT: I see. And did you grow up right through your childhood living in the High Street? Or did you move?
JT: No, we went to [pause] well my first recollections of early childhood is down Letchmore Green. We lived at number 17, Letchmore Green.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: Which was some old cottages you know near John Austin’s place.
BT: Yes, I know. yes.
JT: And they used to be wonderful days because we all the boys used to play cricket on that bit of green. Letchmore Green.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And my brothers were born there. My sister was born there. Then we came up to a council house at Whitesmead Road when I was twelve.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And that was something wonderful because mum could have an electric cooker and electric light you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: Although we could hardly afford it from what I can remember. We still had two oil lamps put on the side of the mantelpiece.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: Because electric seemed to be very expensive.
BT: Yeah. I see. Yes.
JT: Then from there I went in the services. But I started work at ESA when I was fourteen.
BT: Oh yes. Before that I suppose you’d been to school at Letchmore Road.
JT: Letchmore Road. Yeah. Yeah.
BT: And you just stayed there until you were fourteen. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. I won a scholarship and I couldn’t, my dad couldn’t afford it. It was three and five pence I think it was. They’d got to pay for books and various people. I was one of six. The other five went but dad couldn’t afford three and five pence.
BT: This is, this is to Alleyne’s is it?
JT: That was Alleyne. Yeah.
BT: Yeah. Really. Yeah.
JT: I think it was three and five pence. You’d got to pay for your books.
BT: Yes.
JT: And things like that.
BT: Gosh. Yes.
JT: During that time that was coming up during the Depression you may recall.
BT: Yes.
JT: And dad was only on part time.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And there was no substitute. You either got two days work or nothing, you know, and dole was very limited and there was a strict control on people who got dole. A few, and they were very difficult days. I mean I’m not fully in touch with all that happened but I know it was very disastrous for mum and dad. Dad used to cry and mum used to cry you know. You’d got nothing to eat and all this sort of thing.
BT: Yes.
JT: But somehow or other they managed, you know. I mean those were the days when you were put in jail if you, if you snared a rabbit.
BT: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, we’re talking really about, about nineteen, the early 1930s.
JT: That’s right. Yeah.
BT: 1933 or so.
JT: Yeah. Yeah.
BT: Yes.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yes. I see. So anyway, you went to Letchmore Road Boy’s School. Do you remember anything about Letchmore Road? Any particular masters there?
JT: We had some marvellous teachers you know.
BT: Really? Yes.
JT: Mr Clarke.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: He made men of boys.
BT: Really? Yes.
JT: He was the original Mr Chips.
BT: Yeah. Was he?
JT: Yeah.
BT: Right. Yeah.
JT: And if there’s any spark of intelligence or anything, anything that anybody could, he could find he brought it out you know. I mean I was pretty good at writing and stories and fairly good at painting but he improved everything I did. And as a result of that I went to night school after that for four years like. I did shorthand, bookkeeping and that sort of thing. I’ve got a certificate now for eighty words a minute shorthand. It gets a bit upsetting you know when you look over a girls desk and say, you know you haven’t done the right contraction for managing director you know.
BT: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: After all these years I still remember it, you know.
BT: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: But no, he was a wonderful teacher. I remember the complete lack of sports facilities. When I come to see what children have today and its right that they should have it. Let’s get that right. Just because we didn’t have it. I mean we had no sports facilities at all at the school and the only time we could play a game of cricket was on a Saturday which I couldn’t play because I’d got an errand boy’s job.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And that was from I was twelve when I had my first job.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I couldn’t reach the saddle.
BT: Oh yeah. And you had one of these bikes did you?
JT: Yeah.
BT: With a basket at the side.
JT: And you had to go to places like Graveley, Woolmer Green, and take a small bottle of spirits of salt, sulphuric acid and things like that you know.
BT: Really. Yeah.
JT: They used to phone up and you’d have to take that and they used to work ‘til Saturday night 9 o’clock. I think I got two and sixpence.
BT: Oh yeah. Who were you working for?
JT: Harkin.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: Harkin. That’s where Kingswood is now.
BT: Yes. I know. Yes.
JT: Yeah. Mr Harkin’s the chemist. I used to mix up baby creams at the top and fill bottles of [unclear]
BT: Oh yes. I know. Yes.
JT: White Vaseline zinc.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
JT: And I also helped to make pills you know out of the pill making machine. But that was upstairs in the —
BT: Yeah.
JT: In the attic there. But everybody, all the boys had some form of job you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: You know. It was [pause] I wasn’t very good at getting up so I didn’t do a paper round. No. I had a very happy childhood. It was a bit meagre.
BT: Yes.
JT: You know.
BT: Yes.
JT: But as my father wonderfully used to say, ‘I’d give you anything boy but I’ve nothing to give you.’
BT: No. No.
JT: But no, wonderful times and you know happy times. We always had food from somewhere. We always had a clean bed and clean clothes if they were patched. And dad used to repair all our shoes you know. But no, it was a wonderful time. I mean all us three, all us four are still and we still laugh at the times and things that we used to do.
BT: Right.
JT: And I was very keen on sport in the early days. Well, always have been. All my life. And as I say I missed out on cricket and football. Oh, this is an interesting point about the ESA when I applied for a job they wouldn’t start me because I was too small.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: Yeah. And they wouldn’t get away with it today. But —
BT: No. Physically too small. Yeah.
JT: That’s right.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Mum couldn’t get a pair of long trousers for me. She had to make a pair.
BT: This was when you were fourteen they said that.
JT: Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
BT: When you were about to leave school I mean did you have any ideas about what you wanted to do? Or —
JT: Well, yes you did but I mean no way did anybody [pause] could you future what you wanted to do. You had to do what you could get.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I mean it was conditioned by circumstances of the time.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: And although I wanted to get into radio because I used to, dad used to make crystal sets and one valve sets.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: With simple dials and all that, you know.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: Out of old bits and pieces. Go to jumble sails and pick up old bits and pieces. I got interested in that and I was going to be apprenticed to a wireless engineer at [unclear] That’s where I first started work, having to buy a bike which was three pound nineteen and sixpence and I had to pay a shilling a week [laughs]
BT: Yeah.
JT: And I started, I used to bike to [unclear] but then by virtue of that various things happened and instead of doing wireless work that I wanted to do because he find out that I was fairly quick with figures did Mr Hall and I found I was doing all the books for him you know.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: But at fourteen years you can’t believe it.
BT: No. No.
JT: Yeah. Debit and credit accounts you know and all this [laughs].
BT: Yes.
JT: And so yeah I was doing the bookkeeping and sending the bills out and of course because I had to work on a Saturday so that meant no cricket, no football so, I didn’t like that. Anyway, in the end the foreman who refused to start me was ill. A Mr Barker it was and my father said, ‘Now is the time to come boy. Go up there and apply for a job,’ he said, ‘And you should be able to get in,’ he said, ‘Because Barker’s not there. So one of his horticultural friends who assisted Bulman at the time, a chap by the name of Miles, we used to call him happy. I never did know why. And he started me in the packing room and I was only fourteen and a half then. Instead of starting in March I started in May the 8th.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And from then on they soon found out that I was fairly quick with figures.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And I was working out the blokes various bonuses and speeds of cutters and things like that. They took me down to the machine shop.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And I was an office boy in the machine shop. In those days the office boy was the first aid man, general factotum. You had to do everything. Fill the grease guns, fill the oil cans but the amazing thing people used to come in you know that the total first aid equipment you used to have in those days was a one inch bandage and a bottle of iodine.
BT: Yeah.
JT: That’s all you ever had.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And people coming with half their fingers off you know.
BT: Yeah.
JT: There were no safety laws in those days.
BT: No. No. No.
JT: And also going back to those times I mean you only had a week’s holiday which was unpaid.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: I worked in there and I was working all the bonuses out for some little while and they asked me to go up into the office. They started a new system which was the forerunner of the computers as we know it called the Hollerith.
BT: Yes.
JT: And which was a mechanical type of computer.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Not electronic.
BT: No. No.
JT: And to my amazement the assistant manager Mr Williams called me down and I thought I’d got the sack you know. A wage stiff. And he called me in and he said, ‘Don’t look so worried.’ And he gave me seven and sixpence for my work.
BT: Oh dear. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. And a great achievement that. Seven and six. I went home and gave my mum five bob and I had two and six pence.
BT: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. And, oh I was elated. Anyway, from there I did some study. More studying on time and motion study and various things like that. And then the war came.
BT: 1939.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I went in the services in 1940. I volunteered. I was aircrew.
BT: Were you? Oh yes. Yeah.
JT: Well, that’s a model there that was presented to me when I left.
BT: Oh yes. I can see that. A model of Halifax.
JT: That’s actually a Halifax 3.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I was on Halifax 2s anyway.
BT: Oh yes. Yes. We’ll come to talk about that. What happened when, when war broke out? You, you had made up your mind you were going to volunteer or —
JT: Oh yeah. Well, I was in everybody was doing something. First aid or wardens or something. I had to learn something.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I was, I was in the first aid group and you had to pass an exam and a test you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: They used to call it the, it was the old Woodwork Room down Stanmore Road. I believe it’s a Child Centre now.
BT: Yes.
JT: Or something.
BT: Yes.
JT: Yeah, and I was in a team for the first aid. One first aid man, one rescue man. There was about six of you and you had to do a night duty every now and again and it was great fun because I used to take a raw onion and a piece of bread and cheese and these blokes would let me have a sip of their brown ale which was verboten of course at fourteen or fifteen.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Sixteen. I was then sixteen.
BT: Yes.
JT: But as I say I was keen. I was in the Salvation Army.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And that’s where I learned to play music.
BT: Did you?
JT: A lot of it. Yeah.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And I used to play coronet and we had a wonderful little band and they all got killed during the war incidentally.
BT: Really?
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yes. Oh, that’s something else —
JT: Yeah.
BT: I’d like to speak to you about.
JT: In actual fact down in the museum you’ve got a picture of a Mr Welch. Bill Welch. Well, he was our euphonia player.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And he got killed in Italy I believe.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And of course, a lot of them were in the Herts and Beds that got caught at Singapore.
BT: Oh yes. Did they? Yes.
JT: Yeah. And of course, my closest mate, Stan he played with me, he got killed. He was aircrew. We both joined up together and by fortune or fate whatever you’d like to call it I got called up first being Taplin.
BT: Yes.
JT: And he got called up later. Well, whatever I did he did three or four months later. You know. And I was in the services in August and I was flying in 1941 and he was late ’42. Early ’42 he started.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I got shot down in ’43 and he got killed later in ’43.
BT: ’43.
JT: And also there was another friend of ours who got killed.
BT: Yes, but —
JT: Now the reason I had made my mind up that I was going into the Air Force is because I didn’t fancy the idea of footslogging you know. That’s a rather ironic story because I finished up being in the infantry.
BT: Yeah. When the war came in ’39 I mean you were still at ESA. Did you have to, what did you have to do? Did you have to go and sort and report that you were ready for service or something somewhere?
JT: Well, everybody started. I mean I was very diminutive. Very small.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I mean I was weighing about seven and a half stone.
BT: Right.
JT: And if I was weighing that and of course I was eating. I had special pills to make me eat more.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And I used to do exercises. I’d do gymnastics and cycle all over the county you know. Anything to try and keep myself fit so that I could pass the aircrew medical. Which I did first time. But I made my mind up that I was going to be aircrew and my mum didn’t think much to it.
BT: No.
JT: When I first started. I said, ‘Well, I’m only going to be a wireless operator so, which I started to be a wireless operator. Then I volunteered for aircrew later on. Yes.
BT: Yes.
JT: But it was no trouble. I mean everybody wanted to go in. All the young lads at seventeen or eighteen wanted to go.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: Most of them wanted to go.
BT: Yes.
JT: There’s a long story about that we could tell you about them.
BT: Yeah.
JT: But yeah. I went into the services and as I say got shot down in ’43. I was a prisoner of war for three years nearly.
BT: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So you went into the Air Force when? About 1940.
JT: 1940 yeah.
BT: Yes.
JT: Yeah.
BT: And you went off to your first sort of camp. Where was that?
JT: Well, the first place I went I went to Blackpool.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: To do initial training. That was rifle drill, marching and you know to teach you which was your left and which was your right as if you didn’t know.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: And everything by numbers of course.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: And then I started to learn Morse then.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And wireless theory.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Which wasn’t too difficult because it was fairly simple and I’d been looking at it quite, you know I was interested in wireless.
BT: Yes, you said.
JT: I mean we’re talking about in the days of the simple diode and the triode you know when you had accumulators and —
BT: Yes.
JT: And big bios batteries.
BT: Yes.
JT: There are no such thing as transistors and thyristors and all that now.
BT: No. No. No. No. Yes, I can remember those days well.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Having to go and have the recharged and that sort of thing.
JT: That’s right. Yeah. Two volt AV. You wouldn’t believe during the war our main aircraft to base radio was called the 1194 I believe.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And that powered by a hundred and twenty volt battery and a two volt accumulator.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: I can even remember the, the frequency at 6440 KCs.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And it was crystal controlled set and it, it used to provide the pilot you know you brought, when you brought the aeroplane back the pilot used to switch it over and asked the base for permission to land.
BT: Yes.
JT: And that was 6.8. It was called the Darkie programme. If you were in trouble you’d keep calling Darkie.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And all your other stuff broke down. But that was honestly it was powered by a hundred and twenty volt battery.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And a two volt accumulator.
BT: Yeah. Yes, it’s amazing when you think of it now, isn’t it.
JT: Yeah.
BT: It didn’t seem primitive at the time.
JT: No.
BT: No. So and so anyway you went to Blackpool first and afterwards you then went on to —
JT: Yatesbury. I went —
BT: Yeah.
JT: To Yatesbury to do wireless.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Then I went back to Yatesbury after going to Huntingdon, 2 Group Headquarters. I was working on the radio then.
BT: Yes.
JT: The ground control. And then I went back and did a mechanics course. A wireless mechanics course. Then I volunteered for aircrew. I was sent to Horsham St Faiths.
BT: Yes.
JT: 139 Squadron, and I was put on the, on the C Flight as wireless mechanic in charge of I think there was six aeroplanes. Six Blenheims.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And we [unclear] so many people and they knew I was aircrew waiting for training for air gunnery. I used to fly with a chap called Squadron Leader [Hurrey] and I had two weeks gunnery training on the, on the ground by the gunnery leader.
BT: Yes. Really?
JT: And it was, you know on 139 Squadron at Horsham.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: But they wouldn’t let me fly on ops, official ops but we used to have dinghy search.
BT: Yes.
JT: You know, three miles out and from there I got posted back again to Yatesbury to do a further wireless course. From there I was sent to a gunnery course at Air Observer’s School at Penrhos, North Wales. From Penrhos we were sent back to Abingdon, 10 OTU to be crewed up.
BT: Yes.
JT: From there we went to Stanton Harcourt and we did the thousand bombers from there.
BT: Really? Yeah. Whereabouts is that?
JT: Oxford. Near Oxford
BT: That’s Oxford.
JT: That’s Oxford. Yeah.
BT: Yeah. I’ve seen it.
JT: Yeah.
BT: And what were you flying then?
JT: Whitleys.
BT: Whitleys. Really? The old twin engine numbers.
JT: That’s right. Yeah.
BT: I remember them. Yes.
JT: Yes.
BT: They were still flying Whitleys in those days.
JT: Yeah. Yeah.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I always remember a Blenheim. That’s when I met my future brother in law there because he wanted to be crewed up. We used to go about together. We were both fairly small and we were non-drinkers and so you were out of the, you were out of the crowd because —
BT: Yes.
JT: Later on I caught up with the drinking bit I can assure you. No, we didn’t drink you see so we used to go to the local YMCA and have tea and play table tennis and things like that.
BT: Yes.
JT: But he went with another crew. I forget who he went with that night when we went to Bremen. I went with a Flight Lieutenant Bainbridge and we were seven hours ten minutes. We were almost posted as missing. You can’t believe it. To Bremen. And they all waited for us to come back but we made it. Our true speed over the coast over the North Sea was ninety miles an hour.
BT: Really? Yeah. Yes.
JT: A funny thing. I said, ‘For God’s sake we must be able to get back quicker than this.’ And we see this 110, ME 110 just coming off the coast.
BT: Yes.
JT: Off the Dutch coast. So Butch Bainbridge, a wonderful character he said, ‘Don’t worry.’ He said, ‘They’ll never work out the relative speed of this old thing.’ He said, ‘Nobody would believe any aeroplane could fly so slow.’
BT: Slowly. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: But —
BT: Yeah.
JT: But he was a wonderful man because he made, it was a bit frightening you know.
BT: Yes, of course.
JT: Two or three times you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: But you daren’t show it of course.
BT: These were your first operations.
JT: Yes.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: Yeah.
BT: And —
JT: From there I got crewed up with a Pilot Officer Black and a Sergeant Howe who was the navigator. We were together for some long time and we went from there to Leeming. That’s right. North Yorkshire.
BT: Yes.
JT: 4 Group. 10 Squadron. And that’s when we first met Air Vice Marshall Bennett which was then a squadron leader.
BT: Really? Was he? Yes.
JT: Yeah. He’d just got back from Sweden where he’d got shot down at [Trondheim] and went into Sweden and got home. I believe he got his DSO for that.
BT: Yes.
JT: I flew with him on some fighter affiliation trips you know. I didn’t particularly like the man because you know he was so arrogant you know.
BT: Oh, was he?
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yeah.
JT: But I suppose he was a wonderful flyer. I don’t know. But anyway, it’s a long story about —
BT: Yes.
JT: Wireless because, you know, he didn’t, he knew everything you know but nobody knows everything,
BT: No. No. No.
JT: And anyway, lots of funny things happened at the squadron and anyway we did quite a few trips.
BT: Yes.
JT: Then we were posted to Melbourne. A new station. We landed there from an operation and found all our ground crew people all there waiting for us. They hadn’t even got a flare path. Tiny Willis was the chap on the flare path. I remember they had to put petrol cans in cornfields you know to, and that’s all we had. The funnel. That’s all we had. Instead of electric lights they had these tins of petrol with rags in it you know.
BT: Yeah.
JT: The thing that was but it changed because Melbourne was quite a big aerodrome after that. Airport.
BT: Yes.
JT: Not airport. Aerodrome.
BT: Yes.
JT: That was. Yeah. Anyway, we were the first operational crew to land there.
BT: What were you flying then?
JT: Halifax 2s.
BT: Halifaxes by then.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yeah.
JT: They were messing them about a bit taking turrets off and —
BT: Yes.
JT: All various things they kept doing and putting one gun in the front. Taking the turret out again. Putting a front section through. It was still on the Merlins. They didn’t alter the Merlins.
BT: No.
JT: I didn’t fly in them. We went down to Boscombe and we had to do some experiments with it there.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Yeah. It was [pause] where were we? We were up at Melbourne. There was our sister crew was [Summerscales] and Bill Brown was my mate. He was the rear gunner. But whilst we were at Melbourne he took our kite. We went on one trip, I forget which one it was and I reported a fault in the intercom.
BT: Yes.
JT: 1134. Isn’t it funny how these numbers come back?
BT: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
JT: And anyway, there was a big rush on and as we were on that night we didn’t get on to this trip. They went on and apparently they were attacked by a 110 and Bill, my mate he shot it down. He got his DFM for that.
BT: Really?
JT: But they crewed even then because he had no communication with the front at all.
BT: No. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: But this was faulty. But I was in the clear or I’d have been on a technical charge.
BT: Really?
JT: But I had reported it.
BT: Yes.
JT: So somebody was for the high jump you can bet.
BT: Yes.
JT: When they got back.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I don’t know who it was.
BT: Yeah.
JT: But they never. Anyway, we got that and we were posted up to, then up to Leeming again to form a new Group, 6 Group. A Canadian Group. That’s 6 Group. Yeah. That must have been September October ’42.
BT: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. Anyway, we were senior crew and our pilot was made up to flight lieutenant. I was assistant senior wireless operator.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: Our navigator was second in command of navigation and we were the basis to form this new Squadron. 408. Anyway, we went all the way through. I had Christmas leave and went through. Went to Flensburg to [unclear] I think. Hamburg.
[recording paused]
BT: Right. Now, we’re running again. Yes. So you were saying about the operations that you were doing at that time.
JT: That’s right. Well, we did a mine laying one just off of Sweden.
BT: Yes.
JT: That was the night before. I remember seeing all the lights and the cars going. Marvellous you know.
BT: Oh really. Because yes we hadn’t seen that for years.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: The next night it was Hamburg. And there was a bit of a mess up on the arrangements because they said to us that there was a bad weather coming up over the North Sea. ‘If you can’t get over it come back.’ Well, from what I can gather afterwards from the records a lot of the groups were recalled.
BT: Yes.
JT: But we weren’t because you listened out to Group frequency every hour and every half hour.
BT: Yes.
JT: And we didn’t get a recall so we went in like lambs to the slaughter.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: We had block [unclear] and before we could, and we were at twenty two thousand and I was at the back with the flares taking the photographs.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And the next minute I can, I plugged in and I heard the engineer say. ‘We’re losing oil pressure,’ and he says, ‘The port inner’s gone. The starboard inner’s going now.’ The next minute I heard the skipper say, ‘Well, get out lads.’ He said, ‘This is it.’ You know. so —
BT: Yeah.
JT: And I was at the back so I scrambled to the front.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I just had time to put my parachute on and the skipper said to me, ‘Get out.’
BT: Yeah.
JT: And I got out. I was in the air for a few seconds only and the next minute I was hanging in a tree.
BT: Really? Yeah. Yeah.
JT: And the pilot didn’t make it.
BT: Really? He didn’t actually get out himself.
JT: No. No. Willie didn’t make it.
BT: He couldn’t hold altitude I suppose. Is this —
JT: Well, he couldn’t control it and get out the aeroplane at the same time. I mean if he could have moved. Of course, the centrifugal force of an aeroplane coming down like that you’re slung against the side of the fuselage. I mean I had a job to walk down there. I mean the aeroplane was going down like a corkscrew.
BT: Oh, I see. Yes. Yeah.
JT: And to get down into the front there was some physical effort I can assure you because it’s not like an airliner. You’ve got bits and pieces sticking all over the place.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: Caps and cocks.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: And you know all sorts of bits in the way and of course my escape hatch was in the front because my parachute was there. You never took your parachute with you because you’d accidentally pulled it if you weren’t careful.
BT: There’s no room. Yes.
JT: I mean some of the aeroplanes, particularly the Whitley you had to crawl on your tummy to get through the main bulkhead.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: And you couldn’t do that with a parachute on anyway.
BT: No. No.
JT: So, but it was unfortunate and we found out afterwards that the rear gunner got killed too. But we don’t know how that happened. But they did tell us that they found the pilot’s body underneath the aeroplane. Whether that was true or not we never knew.
BT: No. No. So you were there in Germany.
JT: That’s right. Yeah.
BT: In a tree. Yeah.
JT: With a dog barking at my feet.
BT: Really? Yes. Yes.
JT: I was hanging down like this.
BT: Yes. Yes. Just swinging. Yes.
JT: And I hadn’t got my right harness on. It was in for inspection and I borrowed somebody else’s because it wasn’t fitting properly. Instead of the release button being there where it should be it was under my neck.
BT: Oh gosh. Yeah.
JT: And I couldn’t see to turn the two red lines together.
BT: No. To get out of it.
JT: I was plucking it like this.
BT: Yes.
JT: At various places and I couldn’t release. Anyway, in desperation I turned and gave it a bang and I fell on my shoulder.
BT: Yeah.
JT: There was a parachute still hanging up there and the dog by this time had gone.
BT: Ah.
JT: I sort, sort of tried to collect my wits and walked to the woods and sat down. I believe I said a little prayer.
BT: Yes.
JT: I know I did when I went out. I know, ‘Please God help me.’
BT: Yeah. Yes.
JT: And funny you don’t have any fear.
BT: No.
JT: It’s not fear but it’s, I can’t express the feeling when I went out that aeroplane you know. Anyway, I was in the wood and laying in the wood and to try and collect myself and it was very very cold and frosty. February the 3rd.
BT: Yes. February the 3rd. Nineteen.
JT: 1943.
BT: ’43. You would be just about twenty one.
JT: I was twenty.
BT: Yes.
JT: I wasn’t quite twenty one.
BT: Not quite twenty one. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. Twenty when I was shot down. And I remember laying there and I was freezing cold although I’d got this Sidcot inner on I’d got no gloves. As I’d been walking into the woods I was going through these puddles and this and my feet were wet and cold. I laid down near a tree and it was getting morning by then and I could hear these footsteps coming to me and I thought oh God, it’s the Germans. So I shut my eyes and thought well surely they wouldn’t even shoot a man with his eyes shut who’s asleep you know.
BT: Yeah.
JT: When I looked up there was a tiny little deer walking towards me and it was in a [pause] it was a beech wood or an oak wood. It wasn’t, and there was no leaves on it at all. A very barren sort of place. Lots of leaves on the ground and it was funny I never saw a wood like that the rest of my German —
BT: No.
JT: Escapade.
BT: No.
JT: It was always fir trees after that.
BT: Yes.
JT: Anyway, I stayed there all day and the funny things that go through your mind you can’t believe. I came to the edge of this wood and I could hear somebody whistling, “Annie Laurie.”
BT: Really. Yeah.
JT: I know it’s stupid now.
BT: Yes.
JT: Well perhaps I’m in Scotland, you know.
BT: Yeah.
JT: But it was a chap ploughing.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: Yeah. A chap that was ploughing.
BT: Yes, a German.
JT: Anyway, I could hear. I could hear the train so I sort of walked right on the edge of the wood until I could see the train lines. I said, right. I’m heading for the train when its dark and I could hear this ding ding because they do have a signalling in the railways over there on the lines.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: They hit the line with a hammer and it rings right the way through. It’s surprising.
BT: Oh course, yes.
JT: I didn’t know what that noise was.
BT: No.
JT: You see these trains coming through and so I waited ‘til the night. It was very dark and I walked up to this bank and I thought I’d jump on to a train. But before that I had to go through a ditch with some wire and I can remember I thought it might be electrified. I mean you can’t. Imagine.
BT: No.
JT: The stupid things that go through your mind.
BT: No.
JT: And I crept under that wire.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Crept under the wire and, you know so I didn’t touch the barbed wire. Got myself wet through. Anyway, I got to this bank waiting for the next train and of course it was going the wrong way. I kept, I got a compass and an escape kit with me.
BT: Oh really? So you had your mind to —
JT: Oh no. Everybody had one.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: And you had foreign money. French, German money.
BT: Really? Did you?
JT: Everybody had that.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: And you had an escape kit with a map, Horlicks tablets, water purifiers, a little water bottle. It was all put in your uniform. Compass.
BT: I see. So you were all prepared. Yeah.
JT: In actual fact I’ve got an escape map up there.
BT: Really? Yes.
JT: And my son’s got all these compasses you know like button compasses and things like that.
BT: Oh yes. Really.
JT: He says, ‘I’m not going to let you have them,’ he says ‘You’ll give them away or you’ll show somebody and forget.’ But he’s got one of them.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: Anyway, I was waiting. I didn’t realise I was waiting on the wrong side. It was going the wrong way. I always remember the escape lectures. Always try to jump a train on the curve.
BT: Yes. Quite.
JT: Anyway, I couldn’t, I crossed over to the other side and when this goods train came because it was all passenger trains kept coming past. I was hiding in the side of this bank and when I went to jump up I couldn’t reach it. You don’t realise how tall these wheels are.
BT: No. No. No.
JT: I couldn’t get —
BT: A long way.
JT: So I had to wait for the next one and think what I was going to do you know.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Anyway, I did finally get because they’d got a sort of step and a little tower at the end of the [unclear]
BT: Yes.
JT: Where the guards go and where the brake wheel is.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I remember jumping on that and getting in this truck and it kept going and going and it was going towards the north which I wanted to. I thought well if I go north they’ll expect me to go south or towards the Dutch border.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
JT: I was travelling all night. All night. Then I jumped out and I found another wood and near a village and in the morning well in, during later it was quite a bright moonlight if I remember rightly. And I thought well I’ll try and go into the house and get something out. Well, this time I was quite hungry and it was about well about three days on the run.
BT: Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, so you had nothing to eat or anything.
JT: Well, I’d only got Horlicks tablets.
BT: Yeah. That’s right.
JT: And things like that.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And, oh but there was some chocolate in it as well. But that don’t satisfy a man of twenty.
BT: No. of course.
JT: Anyway, I went to walk around this house and this man come up at me. I’d learned enough German to ask for something to eat so and I said, ‘Ein wenig zu essen.’ Which I knew was, ‘A little to eat.’
BT: Yeah.
JT: You know.
BT: Yes.
JT: And he took me around to the stable. I found out afterwards he was a Pole. I didn’t know what it meant. A triangle with a big P in it.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: Now whether he was trying to help me or not I shall never know to this day. Anyway, he took me around the back. Took me into his room.
BT: Yes.
JT: And he went like this to me. Keep quiet.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Then he went and come out. The next minute I saw this damned great German frau with a big carving knife. She could have beat me with a, with a mustard spoon.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Not a carving [laughs] but I was just about on the chin strap at the time.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: Anyway, the next minute there was a big shuffle. The phone rings. Phone bells ringing and the next minute the brown shirts came up and were all stood there with their guns, revolvers and lugers all around.
BT: Oh dear. Yes.
JT: And they couldn’t believe I hadn’t got a gun. I never carried a gun.
BT: No. No. No. But you were in the bag then as they say.
JT: Yeah. From then on it was interrogations, interrogations. They took me from there. Drove me into Hamburg jail.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: By this time and they, two Luftwaffe officers came up each side of me in the car. We were driving all night. I remember that.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: So I must have got some little way away.
BT: Yes.
JT: And they took me into this jail and opened the jail doors and there was the rest of my crew. I always remember my navigator coming up and putting his arms around me because he was an old man. He was twenty eight of course.
BT: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
JT: And he cried. He cries, ‘It’s Taffy.’ He said, ‘I thought you’d bought it.’
BT: Yeah.
JT: They didn’t think, because they knew I right was at the back, you know when it happened.
BT: Yes.
JT: They didn’t think I’d got out. Anyway, he cried because with the navigator for over two years one way or another you know.
BT: Yeah.
JT: We had flown hours and hours together. Anyway, from then we was taken to Dulag Luft. That’s the Interrogation Centre.
BT: Yes.
JT: That’s where some very polite German fraus spit at me because we had privileges you see in the tram at Frankfurt on Main.
BT: Really? Yeah. Yeah.
JT: And the guards turned everybody out. They didn’t think that was right I suppose for prisoners of war [laughs] Anyway, we were put in solitary confinement.
BT: Yes.
JT: And apparently, they were trying to find out from me about the goon. Well, the goon was not, well we called it the goon. It was a Gee. That was a cat and mouse thing you know. Navigational aid.
BT: Yes, I see. Yes. Yeah.
JT: I didn’t know, because I was a wireless operator and electronics man they thought I knew all about it. I didn’t know anything about it. I knew basically how to operate it. The function and how it worked I didn’t know.
BT: No.
JT: And of course, they kept on to me about this and all this what squadron I was in and all that and I said name, rank, number.
BT: Yeah. Which is all you had to give. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. But they kept on and I thought well you’re going to —
[recording stops. Dead air]
JT: I didn’t know.
BT: No.
JT: I honestly didn’t know.
BT: No.
JT: And it was pretty frightening for a twenty year old.
BT: Yeah.
JT: To be shut up with no light. Now, I’ve read escape books since and I was in a different Dulag Luft than what they were.
BT: Yes.
JT: Because I had no light at all.
BT: No. No.
JT: Well, I beg your pardon there was a tiny little [circuit] light. This bloke said he could look out the window and see the trees and the roads.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Well, I couldn’t. I couldn’t see a thing.
BT: Where you were. No. No.
JT: And we had this one little electric fire. A little heater with webs on it. You’d got twenty six [unclear] because they told the escape thing you know you’ve got to keep the mind occupied. [unclear] they used to do.
BT: Yes.
JT: Pull a handle because you only had a small mattress and nothing on it.
BT: No. No.
JT: They took your shoes. By that time they’d taken my flying boots. They’d took my watch off me and everything.
BT: Yes. Right.
JT: And I was in there over a week. From then we went to the worst camp in Germany. That was sent on a train to Lamsdorf. Stalag 8b.
BT: Yes.
JT: And as soon as we got there they chained us up.
[recording interrupted]
JT: From there we went to the worst camp in Germany. That was sent on a train to Lamsdorf. Stalag 8b.
BT: Yes.
JT: And as soon as we got there they chained us up.
[recording paused]
JT: From there we went to the worst camp in Germany. That was sent on a train to Lamsdorf. Stalag 8B.
BT: Yes.
JT: And as soon as we got there they chained us up.
BT: Really?
JT: Yeah. All the aircrew and all the Dieppe boys. It was an Army camp. All chains.
BT: Really? We’ve heard about that.
JT: A lot of people don’t know that you know.
BT: We’d been told.
JT: All the Germans don’t want to know.
BT: No.
JT: They didn’t have. We were chained like that. Like an animal. All day long.
BT: Really?
JT: But obviously we soon found out how to get them off but if you got caught with them off you were put up the wire. They used to what we called they’d wire you. Make you stand with your nose up the wire. But yeah. It’s [pause] after that I was in the, we were chained up and anyway so the engineer, Stan he decided one day he wasn’t going to wear his chain. So there was quite a kafuffle going on. And all the guards were called in and the local panzer regiment they were all called in. they were there with Tommy guns and Schmeissers and all that. And in the end they decided to give up you know because what we were doing we used to take our chains with your number on it, clip them on yourself.
BT: Yes.
JT: And in the evening times they’d unclip them and hand them back of the guards, you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: We had a bit of a laugh.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: But if they saw you without, with them off there was there was trouble.
BT: Trouble. Yes.
JT: Now, during that little spur up to September I had a bit of a brush with Ukraine Joe we called him. I believe his name was Joseph Shink. He got hung later on.
BT: Oh right.
JT: For his treatment of us.
BT: Really? Yes.
JT: He was beaten over the head with a luger because I went to the toilet and I couldn’t do it quick enough and when I say toilet it was a sort of a barn with two or three poles in it.
BT: Yes.
JT: And a hole.
BT: A hole. Yes.
JT: Anyway, that old Joe gave me this beating up and in September we decided that we were, no one was going to wear the chains anymore. There was lots of problems at that bloody camp. I can’t believe that you know the Germans with their mentality could do things. They’d send you all out. Outside. There would be tanks all the way around like this.
BT: Yeah.
JT: You’d stay there all day.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
JT: They’d turn the water off for two days with no reason why they turned it off.
BT: No. No.
JT: You know, things like that.
BT: I can imagine. Yeah.
JT: And the camp was the most primitive of all. Apparently, it was a First World War prisoner of war camp.
BT: Yes.
JT: It’s probably still the same. Anyway, we’d got no windows.
BT: No.
JT: In the place. There was no windows. I mean you just [pause] and we were on two feet of concrete in the huts. I mean how people tunnelled out from that I wouldn’t know.
BT: No. Really.
JT: And our compound was about three quarters of a mile, half a mile, three quarters of a mile to the outer ring. It was completely barren outside. It was impossible.
BT: Couldn’t get out of it. No.
JT: I mean when I come to think of the circumstances and conditions I would have liked to have been at Colditz.
BT: Yes. You might have stood a chance.
JT: Well, I mean it was like going into a convalescent home.
BT: Yes. Compared to what you had there.
JT: That’s it. It was pretty primitive and the German food I mean it was just that if you were lucky you got five rotten potatoes and a piece of bread that wide. And sometimes you got a Red Cross parcel and sometimes you didn’t. But carrying, going a little bit further forward I never saw a Red Cross parcel after I should think what would be July ’44. I never saw one after that.
BT: Not afterwards. No. No.
JT: I saw it just after the second front.
BT: Yes.
JT: I saw one there. We had one then but we didn’t see any after that.
BT: No.
JT: Not where we were. Anyway, I decided to try to escape really and asked for what was known then as a swap. And it was arranged I swapped to change over with a soldier his name being Edwards, Private Edwards from the North Lancs Regiment, Prisoner of War number 33989 and at a given time I leapt the intervening wire, went over to him, changed into his clothes, he changed into mine. He jumped the wire back and settled back into my little nest and for the rest of the war I was a private in the —
BT: Yeah.
JT: You know and [pause] from then on I was known as, everybody knew me as Eddie.
BT: Really?
JT: I was no —
BT: Yes
JT: That’s the chap. The one on the left.
BT: Yes. I see. Yes.
JT: And that was me on the right in my heyday. He escaped with me. We didn’t do a bad job really.
BT: No. I see they picked you. Yes. Yeah. So. Anyway the idea of this was —
JT: Well, the chances of escaping were you know pretty non-existent. Nobody ever escaped from there because particularly aircrew because you were tucked away right in the middle.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I mean that’s a newspaper report when I tried to find him.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: He was in a pretty bad state. He’d been working in the mines and he was in a pretty bad state so he welcomed, and he was an orphan too.
BT: Yes.
JT: He’d got nobody. So yeah. For the rest of the war I was then a soldier.
BT: You took his identity. I see.
JT: Yeah. Oh yeah.
BT: But you didn’t you in fact. You didn’t get out. You stayed under guard for the rest of the war.
JT: No, I went, I went out on working party. That was the idea.
BT: I see.
JT: I went out on a working party.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And we went to various places. Sugar factories.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: Finished up at a stone quarry. Steingrugen. And it was August ’44 and by that time my bomb aimer, Jimmy was with us and he’d swapped over with a soldier by the name of Alcock.
BT: Yes.
JT: The Royal Ordnance Corps.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And we escaped the end of August ’44.
BT: Yes.
JT: We got into Czechoslovakia after it rained and rained. You’ll never believe it. It rained for three days non-stop and we were like rats.
BT: Yeah.
JT: But we came out of Czechoslovakia because the border was a bit like our county borders you can come in and go out and don’t know it.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: We finished back in Sudetenland.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And we’d been in Czech, it wouldn’t have made any difference.
BT: No.
JT: Because all the areas of Czechoslovakia I mean they were so petrified of the Germans they wouldn’t have helped us anyway.
BT: No.
JT: You’d got to get right down towards Yugoslavia. That’s where we were heading for.
BT: Yes.
JT: Anyway, we got, we got picked up. We were on the main road because there’s no way you could carry on in the woods because if they caught you in the wood’s they’d shoot you.
BT: Really? Yes.
JT: And say you were shot trying to escape.
BT: Yes.
JT: And so you kept to the roads.
BT: You’d stick the open. Yeah.
JT: That’s right. Anyway, we kept on the roads and the next minute, somebody must have seen us, it was late at night and these guards picked us up and threw us in this jail. A little village. I believe, I’m not quite certain though but I think it’s called Freiheit which means freedom which is a bit of an ironic thing isn’t it, eh?
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
JT: And they put us in this little jail. A little village jail and I remember children coming and looking right up at the basket. It was right on the pavement.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And laughing at us.
BT: Yes.
JT: From then on we got the true punishment. We were sent to [unclear] a Russian prison called [unclear] and you see the way they treated the Russians it was terrible.
BT: It is, yeah.
JT: We weren’t a lot better but we were privileged. I was two weeks in solitary there. The second week they put us together and I’ll tell you talk about primitive conditions I mean all we’d got in that cell it was about half the size of that room. That size like was a board across the room like that.
BT: Yes.
JT: With some straw on it.
BT: Yeah.
JT: There was no light at the side there. There was a roof light and there was six cells one side and six cells the other. And all you had for your toilet requirements was a tin. Something like a five gallon oil tin with a top on. That was all you had and that was everything.
BT: Just a container. Yes.
JT: That’s right.
BT: Yes.
JT: And only when that was full was it taken out.
BT: It was emptied. Yeah.
JT: And we had two weeks like that. Poor Jimmy, when I saw him he couldn’t see out of his eye. He’d been bitten to death by bugs. He didn’t know what they were. I can only remember what my mum said they looked like. She said they looked something like ladybug. If you see a ladybug and press it and it would go blood everywhere.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: And he said it smelled.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Well, Jimmy’s eyes were so closed up you can’t believe. Anyway, we got together and we were talking about [unclear] it was quite cold but we used to, by then our spirits were picking up a little bit and you know we could be together and all we had was some dry bread and a tin of water. You know, how you survive on those conditions you can’t believe can you?
BT: No. It’s amazing. Yes. Yeah.
JT: And after three weeks we went back to another camp. A place called [unclear]. Then we were put to work on a gas main. Tightening up a gas main.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And we had to dig two metres long, two metres deep in two days. That doesn’t sound much very much but you try and do it.
BT: The thing’s on the go. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. And two metres deep was a long way down for a little bloke like me.
BT: Yes.
JT: I mean I started to develop the science of a true navvy. You know.
BT: Yes.
JT: These steps were very, the dirt on to that step then throw it up forever because we were trying to get all the dirt this side you’re trying to throw it from the bottom three metres up.
BT: Yes. That’s right. Yeah.
JT: Which is a long way to be. Anyway, fortunately I’d got some New Zealanders. Marvellous people they are. They were with us. People from the long range desert group and —
BT: Oh yes. Yeah.
JT: You know, and the SAS.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: During the war. They didn’t develop just recently. We had SAS in the war.
BT: Yes. Yes. Yes.
JT: And funnily enough the SAS men were some of the smallest I ever met. And they’ve all got the same red ginger beards. I don’t know why. But these long range desert group these New Zealanders they were all six foot something, you know. Terrific blokes they were and of course they got to these boulders. I couldn’t lift them so they pushed me out the way and they’d get these boulders like that. Straight away up. Anyway, just by, the old gas main was running. We were supposed to be putting a new gas main in. Well, anyway I was not very experienced with a pick.
BT: No. No.
JT: And by accident it chipped. The pick came off of a stone and went into this old rusty gas main.
BT: Oh right.
JT: And made a hole because the German [unclear] the foreman.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Thought I’d hit it intentionally.
BT: Yes. Right. Yes.
JT: There was quite a kafuffle about that. You know. The day before the court and all the rest of it.
BT: Right. Yeah.
JT: And it was quite an hilarious sort of thing that was.
BT: Yes.
JT: Anyway, we went to [unclear] and I met a Jew from the Palestinian Pioneer Corps.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: Freddie Jewell. He was protected by his British identity.
BT: Yes. Quite.
JT: And I mean he was quite obviously Jewish. You could see.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And he’d come from Berlin would you believe originally. His father was an officer in the First World War. Got the Iron Cross in his day.
BT: Yes.
JT: Well, anyway he decided he was going to have another go. Great. We’re talking about the end of September now. I said, ‘I’ll come with you.’ All we did was tricks, you know. I mean it all sounds so dramatic you know making tracks In escape books it sounds very very different.
BT: Yeah.
JT: But everybody did it. I mean you got some German try to dye your khaki trousers brown.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: But anyway, nothing dramatic about that. We just built the snow up near the wall and jumped over it. We walked to [unclear]
BT: Yeah.
JT: Which was the main station and we’d got artificial [unclear] and travelling visas. We were two Dutch aircraft engineers and we got it all sorted out. I mean, you didn’t have to be a wing commander or a group captain to do all this.
BT: No.
JT: I mean even privates did it you know what I mean but you never read any stories about that.
BT: No. That’s right. You don’t. No.
JT: No.
BT: No.
JT: And I mean this chap Williams I mean he sold, he was almost a millionaire by the books he’s sold by April. Anyway, he was the only Air Force man I knew got home. But that’s beside the point. Anyway, we got into [unclear] and just our luck the guard was just coming back on duty from leave and he recognised so that was —
BT: So he knew you were —
JT: I don’t think we would have made it. We were going to head to Stettin actually.
BT: Oh yes. Yes.
JT: Anyway, that was the next one. When we was another two weeks in the cooler for that. That wasn’t too pleasant. Then they sent me to a straflager for being a naughty boy and that, that was the most unpleasant time of all my life I think because that was hell. And fortunately, it didn’t last very long. It was a Straflager where we had to work from morning ‘til night.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: Non-stop.
BT: Yes.
JT: By this time poor Jimmy my poor old bomb aimer he got found out and he was put in the [unclear] again. And he was sent back to Lamsdorf. Yeah. He had another spell in the old cooler but this Staflager we had to be in the wood and we were making wood chips for holzgas. Wood gas.
JT: Oh yeah. And a lot of these Ukrainians but we were in the woods cutting the trees down and all that and we had to keep going morning to night. Cold. And I can assure it does get cold there. It cuts right through you that wind.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: We were at a place called Muscau. M U S C A U.
BT: Yes.
JT: And there was only sixteen of us and we was locked up every night. We were so tired we used to sleep with all our clothes on.
BT: Yes.
JT: You know.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And I was there over Christmas. On Christmas Day I had to unload thirty ton of coal with a truck and usually I was on my tod.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And all we got for that was some pumpkin soup you know.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: And when I’m talking about some of the food they used to give us. Spinach soup.
BT: Yes.
JT: Comprised of if you were lucky you got a few roots and a couple of worms at the bottom because they just pulled it up and worse with the spinach.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And just threw it in and boiled it.
BT: Oh, I see. Yes.
JT: Roach, dirt everything.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Yeah. And that was that was their food for you.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And you see what I mean about I wish I’d been at Colditz.
[recording cuts]
JT: On a forced march.
BT: Oh yeah. Where were you when you —
JT: So everybody had to march to various centres and various prisoners of war marching all over different parts of Germany. Forced march yeah.
BT: Yes.
JT: And the only food you got was what you could steal and if you got caught stealing you got a bullet in you.
BT: Really? Yes.
JT: But everybody used to be on night raids to [unclear] but we started we had to go into a place called Gӧrlitz which was not far from Sagan where all those blokes got shot. Sagan 3. And we walked, well marched, we were force marched. We started off with some old trolleys that we could find and stuff on our back. We finished up with nothing but the clothes we were standing in.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Circling the dead and all the rest of it. But we worked it out we must have walked and we didn’t do the most but we marched eight hundred and eighteen miles from January the 2nd or the 3rd until April the 17th where we —
BT: Yeah.
JT: We were outside the American lines at a place called, just the other side of Erfurt.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And Kassel.
BT: Yes.
JT: Where the American lines were and we had a major trying to keep us alive. A Major Darling. By this time there were some Russians with us. Most of them got shot by frustrated Germans and I mean one particular case there was one bloke there he just, he couldn’t march anymore so he was, and he was standing, well sitting, laying down there beside me and this German guard went up to him and he just put his cap down like that. He knew he was going to get shot and just put a bullet in him. You know, just like a dog.
BT: Really? Yes.
JT: And then we started marching. As we were coming near the front we saw these fanatical Hitler Youth you know with these Panzerfausts and all that.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
JT: And I almost got beaten up at a place called Weimar which was near Buchenwald.
BT: OK.
JT: As we were marching through but I mean it was all of a much the same. Everybody went all the way through. Unfortunately, some of our boys on the march got shot up by our own aeroplanes.
BT: I suppose so. Is that —
JT: Because the Germans were utilising them to bring in ammunition at the back of them you see. I mean a particular chap I knew, a chap by the name of Brown. He was an air gunner. He was up the north somewhere. He got killed by one of our own aeroplanes shooting up the column.
BT: Yeah.
JT: On the way home this was.
BT: Yes.
JT: So when we got to Erfurt I had quite a lot of trouble trying to convince them, Major White, a paratrooper, that I was who I was.
BT: Yes.
JT: So he said, ‘Until we get confirmation on that,’ he says, ‘You’re still a private.’ So instead of Warrant Officer Taplin I had to be Private Edwards.
BT: Yeah.
JT: He put me in the cookhouse.
BT: Right.
JT: I didn’t mind it. It was a black regiment. Or a coloured regiment I should say and I lived, I seemed to live on chicken which you know, chicken with everything.
BT: Really? God.
JT: And of course, I didn’t mind I was being fed by a lord.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I went on. I could speak a bit of German. I had to interpret from various other languages.
BT: Yes.
JT: Some Poles that could speak a little bit of German. A little bit of English you know.
BT: So had you fallen into the hands of the Americans?
JT: Yeah. We walked over. There was nothing heroic about that. Major Darling, he, I told him that I was Warrant Officer Taplin.
BT: Yeah.
JT: So he said, ‘Oh, you’re a senior member then.’ He said, ‘You take the last column over.’ So I had all these lads with me.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And all the others two or three columns had gone. So I was now Taplin and everybody that’s known Taplin, Smith, Welch.
BT: Yes, all the, all the good names.
JT: We were all —
BT: That’s right.
JT: We were coming towards the end and I was the senior man so they put me in charge and all we’d got to do was march in a straight line and I mean it was so ridiculous. You could see these German machine gunners up one side waving to us as we went on.
BT: Yeah. Waving.
JT: We were singing, “A long way to Tipperary,” and you know. All those sorts of things so the Americans would recognise us as we went over. They were expecting us of course.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: Which we were the last column. Yes. So when we got there I mean you can’t believe there was these Americans parading up and down with white helmets on. So you can imagine there wasn’t a lot going because the edict of that day was don’t go any farther weren’t they. They stopped.
BT: Oh yes. So the column [unclear] didn’t they?
JT: The Yalta Agreement or something.
BT: Yes, that’s right. Yes.
JT: And —
BT: Yes.
JT: Anyway, they put us in this shoe factory and gave us a piece of white bread. We couldn’t believe it, you know.
BT: No. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: And gave us some K rations. Packets of K seen anything like it. Toilet rolls, two cigarettes a piece of chewing gum.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And things like that. We were just like kids we were when they —
BT: Yeah.
JT: Like a Christmas box.
BT: Yes.
JT: We couldn’t believe it. We went into Erfurt. It was an old artillery barracks and that’s where I met major, Major White. And then I was trying to identify myself.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: Anyway, it did finally percolate through that I was warrant officer and I was taken by Dakota.
BT: Oh, were you?
JT: To Wings. And then we were taken from there in Lancasters and we landed at Tangmere.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And then I realised the difference between senior rank and junior rank. I had a taxi to take me to London and these poor old soldiers had to pile into a dirty old lorry.
BT: Oh dear. Yes. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. But I mean this was the difference I suppose.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Anyway, I had a taxi take me.
BT: Yeah. Yeah.
JT: To the Euston Hotel.
BT: Oh yes. Yeah.
JT: But this time, this time they’d kitted us out with American uniform. I was dressed as an American GI.
BT: Oh dear.
JT: [unclear] and everything.
BT: Yeah.
JT: They were very good. I mean let’s face it.
BT: Yeah.
JT: They gave me a kitbag full of cigarettes.
BT: Really. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: Camels and Macdonalds.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And razor blades. You’ve never seen anything like it that they gave us. It was marvellous. Because when we got to the Air Force hotel at Euston we were forbidden, oh they gave me a pair of slippers. My feet were a bit sore.
BT: Yeah. By that time. Yes.
JT: And they gave me a pair of slippers and forbade us to go out. We’d got no money but this flight lieutenant and I we climbed down the drainpipe and went to the nearest pub [laughs] and told him we had just got home, prisoners of war and we’d got no money but you know we’d sign an IOU. ‘Don’t worry about that mate.’ So we had free drinks.
BT: Nice. Did you? Yeah.
JT: And it was amazing you know these girls because I was dressed up as a GI and fourteen fifteen year olds. Amazing.
BT: It was. Yeah. I bet that surprised you because you’d been away for a while.
JT: Yeah. Yeah.
BT: And yes, things are different.
JT: Anyway, I met, when I landed at Tangmere oh it was a wonderful reception. They’d got all these the bands playing.
BT: Yeah.
JT: It was quite unusual. I don’t know if it was but a band and the ladies and WAAF officers waiting on us.
BT: Really? Yeah. Yeah.
JT: You can’t believe.
BT: No.
JT: Didn’t know where to start, you know. Breakfast time everybody was going for these hard boiled eggs.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: I can see it now but it was rather funny.
BT: Yes.
JT: Anyway, I came out the one and we’d been deloused and —
BT: Yes.
JT: All powder been squirted all over us you know.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: And this wing commander came out the Officer’s Mess. He said, ‘Taffy, old boy.’ And he says, ‘How long have you been in the bag?’ I said, ‘Too long. Two and a half years.’ ‘Come in the Mess and have a drink,’ he said. ‘Phone your mum up.’ And that’s when I phoned home.
BT: And you got through. Yes. Yeah.
JT: Because they all knew I’d been missing for a long time.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: And he biked up and told my mum what —
BT: Oh really.
JT: He just told me I’d be home as soon as I can.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And of course, mum was absolutely elated.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Just couldn’t believe it you know. Of course, when I came home there was my brother in law had married my sister. I didn’t know anything about.
BT: No. No.
JT: Decorated. DFC. DFM. You’d never believe it. Medals from here to there.
BT: Really? Yeah. Yeah.
JT: And he met me at the top and carried my kit bag.
BT: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JT: Dad came home and we just walked into the room. Yeah. Mum couldn’t believe it. I was back. Even that night she said to me where, ‘I’ve got your bed ready son.’ I said, ‘Alright mum.’ She said, no. She said, ‘I’ve made my mind up. You’re going to sleep near me.’ So she made me a bed on the floor right beside her.
BT: Really?
JT: Yeah. She just couldn’t believe that I was home.
BT: You were back.
JT: No.
BT: Yes.
JT: She just couldn’t believe it. She kept looking over at me.
BT: Making sure you’re still there. Yeah.
JT: And my brother didn’t know.
BT: No.
JT: He just sat there because the first thing I asked for was bacon and egg.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: Of course, she cooked that because we got, I couldn’t believe we got treble rations for that.
BT: Yes.
JT: For six weeks. I got six weeks.
BT: Oh yeah. Triple rations. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: Mum couldn’t believe it with all this cheese and stuff.
BT: No. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: And anyway, my youngest brother came in from school and mum said to him, ‘You know who this is don’t you?’ He said, ‘No.’ So she said, ‘Well, that’s your brother.’ No. He didn’t know who I was. He didn’t recognise me.
BT: No. No. Time had gone by so much.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: So I worked on a farm after that. Old Allen’s. I worked at Allen’s.
BT: So you were out of the forces then.
JT: No. No. No.
BT: Oh, you were in.
JT: I got extended leave.
BT: Oh, I see. Yeah.
JT: And of course, six to eight weeks. I can’t remember. And I went back to the Rehabilitation Centre but even that time when I was on leave I used to go up the farm. I went up there to meet people I knew. Old Fred Allen. I don’t know if he’s on the record somewhere.
BT: Yes.
JT: He used to do a lot of first aid work and also a lot with showjumping. Horses and that.
BT: Oh really? Yeah. This is up at, we’re talking about Chesterfield.
JT: Chesterfield. That’s it. He worked up there.
BT: Yes, I knew him.
JT: I went, I went to work there with him.
BT: Yes.
JT: And at the end of the week I couldn’t believe it. He came back he’d taken all the [unclear] he was shopping at Claridge’s.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Haymaking and all that. I was only doing that to get myself back into condition again you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: And it got me a little pay and that. I got extra rations for that. I got extra meat and extra cheese.
[recording paused]
JT: It got me a little pay. I got extra rations for that. I got extra meat and extra cheese. My mum was [laughs]
BT: Yeah. Amazing.
JT: Couldn’t believe all this. And he gave me a little envelope I remember and he put four pound ten in it.
BT: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: He paid me. I don’t know [unclear] paid.
BT: [unclear] to be paid.
JT: No. No.
BT: No. He didn’t do it that way.
JT: [unclear] I got paid. And that’s when I learned that there was a lot more in farm labouring than farm labouring.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: And you know you get on the top of a stack, living at home and all that because I’d got open necked shirts and all that the same.
BT: Yes.
JT: But these old boys who’d got buttoned up with all neckerchiefs around the top you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: They weren’t taking any chances.
BT: No.
JT: We’d cut through thistles. We were starting to —
BT: Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah.
JT: Anyway, I went back to the Rehabilitation Centre and they were trying to tone us all up. Gymnastics.
BT: Oh right.
JT: Food.
BT: Yes.
JT: And things like that. But I used to cheat. We used to, I’d take our gym shoes. They were going to badminton at about quarter past nine, putting them in my bag at the back and we’d be on the train to Wolverhampton.
BT: No.
JT: When we got back late at night.
BT: No. I suppose you were at that time the war was over.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Your attitude to service life was a bit different than when you went in.
JT: Well, we didn’t care then.
BT: No. No.
JT: Let’s face it, you know. But they did ask me. They wanted to make me a flying officer in charge of transport at Waterbeach.
BT: Oh yeah. Yeah.
JT: Yeah. I come back, told my mum and she started crying. She said, ‘Don’t you think I’ve had enough?’
BT: Oh dear. Really?
JT: I said, ‘Fair enough.’
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: But you know I’d have finished up what? I wouldn’t get any higher than squadron leader.
BT: No.
JT: But been retired at thirty nine. Twenty one year service.
BT: Yes. Yes. But in fact, you turned it down and came out.
JT: Yeah. Worked at the ESA for four pound ten.
BT: Yeah. Really? Yes. Yeah.
JT: And I was getting thirteen pounds as a warrant officer aircrew.
BT: Really? Yeah.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Amazing, isn’t it?
BT: Yes
JT: Anyway, I went back to ESA and I started back in the planning office and the chap in charge of estimating said to me, he says, ‘Why don’t you come and work with me?’ I said, ‘Fair enough.’ So I went estimating and I worked there for three or four years and finally I was put in charge of estimating and I went [pause] was made export manager. I’ve been around the world you know. All over the Middle East.
BT: Oh really. Yes. At that time I suppose from the end of the war when retail didn’t really have any effect on you. You were established in the Town here.
JT: Yes.
BT: You had a job in Stevenage.
JT: That’s right.
BT: Which was here already and the new town sort of happened around you.
JT: That’s right. Yeah. Not all. We didn’t all want it. Let’s get truthful about that.
BT: No. Quite. Yeah.
JT: I mean we were a nice little community. We knew everybody. We got our own little library, we’d got our own dance hall, pathetic though it was.
BT: Nevertheless.
JT: And you know but obviously that would mean more work for everybody but I was a bit open minded. I can’t remember, the general atmosphere was and to be truthful about it I didn’t want it.
BT: No. No.
JT: You know. Stalingrad wasn’t it they called it. No. Stevenagegrad.
BT: Yes. You’re right.
JT: Yeah. Stevenagegrad. Well, we couldn’t see the benefits. We’d all got a nice little job you know and of course then by that time I’d met my wife.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I started this dance band up.
BT: Oh really Yes. Because you —
JT: Yeah.
BT: Because you did play.
JT: The coronet. Yeah.
BT: The coronet.
JT: On a coronet.
BT: I didn’t ask you about the Salvation Army actually. Could I just sort of —
JT: Yeah.
BT: Was there, was this a family connection with the Salvation Army.
JT: No.
BT: Was this how you came to —
JT: Well, originally my father was a very devout Christian and you know you go up and see some of the books he left me. I don’t understand. Anyway.
BT: No.
JT: And for a time he was in the Salvation Army.
BT: Yes.
JT: And during that time they started this junior band and I went into it you know.
BT: Really.
JT: And I used to play like that but then my father came out of it and he did a bit of lay preaching.
BT: Oh yes.
JT: And certain ideas that they’d got he didn’t quite believe you know and there was no bad feeling about it. He said, ‘I think you’re wrong. It doesn’t say that in the bible,’ and all that sort of thing. Anyway, there was a lot of, we had a band of about twenty, twenty three I suppose.
BT: Yes.
JT: Nearly all went in the services.
BT: Yes.
JT: Nearly all of us went. And a lot of them got killed.
BT: Yes. You were saying. Yes.
JT: [unclear] all got killed.
BT: But anyway, at the end of the war you didn’t, did you take this up again? I mean —
JT: No. No.
BT: No.
JT: No.
BT: No.
JT: I’m afraid I saw a different side of life, you know. I saw the bitterness in the world.
BT: Yeah. Yes. During the war.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yes.
JT: I mean everything when I was a young lad everything was so easy and straightforward you know.
BT: That’s right. Yes.
JT: And I didn’t see the hardness and bitterness in people and the cruelty that was going on. I mean some of the cruelty that the Germans inflicted on some of our lads you can’t believe. I mean I got hit over a shoulder with a rifle butt.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I mean there was no need for that.
BT: No. Not necessary.
JT: And —
BT: Yes.
JT: They’ve got a terrible brutal streak in them you know and they’re so individualistic. I can’t, I’m afraid I’ve got no time for them. I never will have.
BT: No. No.
JT: My son says, ‘You’ve got to do it dad.’ I say, ‘I can’t.’
BT: No. well —
JT: And you know it’s just one of those things. I mean when you get someone who has broken your hand off and the dogs barking you never like dogs anymore.
BT: I don’t blame you. No. That’s right. Of course. Yes.
JT: Now, to punish all those people they are so regimented that you can’t believe that you know they’ve got no [pause] well I passed [unclear] the only one. The next best thing. Individualism and those that did they got killed. But those who were out they would give away their own parents you know for the Fatherland. Terrible people.
BT: Yes.
JT: All they need is a big bang and they would be now.
BT: Yeah.
JT: They would be like that now if they had a chance. I’m sure they would. But I mean all they needed is a fancy uniform with a little gold braid on it, three or four flags and a band and they’re away.
BT: They’re away [laughs] Yes. Yeah.
JT: You know, I’m afraid, you know I saw the worst in them I’m afraid.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I mean although coming to that when I was talking about this march I was saved. My life was saved by a German as strange as it may seem. It was the Hawkman because we had another break. When we on the march we, we this [unclear] who was a South African we decided that we weren’t going to march with the main column. We were going to try and head straight to the American lines.
BT: Yes.
JT: So, that night we cleared off and hid in, in the straw of a farm. And of course, the Hawkman in charge of the march he used to have a bike.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: He was biking everywhere trying to find these two blokes that were missing.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And he sent the guards back without him because they were poking in the straw with these bayonets and all of that so I soon jumped up quick.
BT: Yeah.
JT: I didn’t want a bayonet through me. Anyway, they were taking us back and two SS officers came up and wanted to shoot us.
BT: Really? Yeah. Yeah.
JT: He did say from what I can interpret was saying, he was saying, ‘They’re my responsibility.’ He said, ‘I’m taking them back to the main column.’ And so he did save our lives in the end. But he was a very nice man. As we went over the line he shook hands with everybody.
BT: Really? Yes because he risked his own life doing this I suppose.
JT: But he was a First World War man.
BT: Yes.
JT: You’ve got these fanatical youngsters you know that that’s —
BT: They’d been indoctrinated by Hitler really.
JT: Oh, terrible. Terrible yeah. I mean they must have been sixteen or fifteen year olds laying on the side of the road dead you know where these Panzer force and all they’d got was this one.
BT: Yes.
JT: And once that had gone and if they missed you know terrible. But I mean let’s face it I don’t bear it to a bitter degree when I’ve had German students here with my son.
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: But I can’t forget —
BT: No. That’s right. No. That’s understandable.
JT: I can’t forget.
BT: No.
JT: I mean they treated us like animals and I can’t, there was no reason for treating us like that. We were soldiers or airmen doing our duty for our country.
BT: Yes.
JT: And we should have been respected and treated as such.
BT: Yes.
JT: And I can assure you being a private I saw the bottom end of it.
BT: Oh yes. That’s right. Yes.
JT: And then as I say as a senior Air Force, as a warrant officer I wasn’t officially allowed to work.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And the differences between how they kept officers, NCOs and pilots you can’t believe —
BT: Really? Yeah. Yeah.
JT: I mean fortunately I’d like to think that the gap is narrowing but in prisoner of war life it was terrible.
BT: It was dreadful.
JT: I mean let’s face it a German under officer was equivalent to what? A corporal. They are God themselves you know.
BT: They were very, yes. Yeah.
JT: Well, anyway as I say I finished up as an export manager.
BT: At ESA. But as you say were you still doing a band, or a dance band as well.
JT: Oh yeah. We started playing. We started to play and of course, I played, during my training I played with the Air Force band.
BT: Oh, had you? Really.
JT: And broadcast under Leslie Woodgate.
BT: Really?
JT: Two or three times.
BT: Oh.
JT: Yeah. When I was at Yatesbury. I did that to get out of guard duty.
BT: Yes.
JT: And apart from that I got extra money. I got twelve and sixpence a week extra.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And I played second and third coronet. But they had some brilliant players there. But we had wonderful, and they wanted me to stay. He was going to make me a corporal instructor if I stayed in the band you know.
BT: Really?
JT: I wanted to fly so that was it.
BT: So you stayed in years. Yeah.
JT: Well Leslie Woodgate used to do somewhere in Britain.
BT: Yes. That’s right. Yes.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yeah. So but so you know how afterwards after the war you went to [unclear] anyway.
JT: Anyway, well yeah. I still had all my teeth then. From then I went to and started this band called, “The Comets.”
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: I used to play with two or three bands but when we married I invited one pianist, one pianist played the organ for me and obviously my best man was the drummer.
BT: Oh, yeah. Oh, I see.
JT: And another chap I used to play with was a sax player so I made him play but before I knew where I was there was twelve people up on the stand. They’d come anyway.
BT: Yeah.
JT: You know. So it was marvellous really.
BT: Yes. So, yeah.
JT: A full band up there.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Because I went to play on my wedding night. My wife didn’t think too much of that.
BT: No.
JT: She said, ‘You’re not going to your trunk.’ I said, ‘Yeah. I am.’ [laughs] but —
BT: Yeah.
JT: Well, but —
BT: Yeah.
JT: Well, we were in the band for some little while. We were reputed to be good. We used to play for the North Herts Dancing Championships and things like that.
BT: Oh, did you? Yeah. I see. Yes. And so you’d play in the town clubs just in Stevenage but would you play —
JT: Oh no. I used to play Watford. Pinner. Various places like that. Letchworth. Because there were three or four bands. There was the Ace of Hearts, the Embassy. But there was always a dance every Saturday in Stevenage so we used to play up the ESA.
BT: Yes.
JT: Or at the Town Hall but [unclear] a half a crown I always remember. There was never any trouble or anything like that.
BT: No. There wasn’t. No.
JT: It was wonderful and that’s where I first met my wife, you know. And after that I used to play in the Stevenage band.
BT: Really?
JT: They had quite a good reputation then and it come to a point though and I used to play soprano. It’s a wonderful little instrument to play and my wife got a little bit fed up with I mean I was doing two or three rehearsals a week. Sunday mornings doing quartet practices and contest work and all this sort of thing.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: It was getting a bit too much.
BT: Yes.
JT: She had every right to say, ‘Well, this isn’t on you know.’
BT: Yes. Yes.
JT: I couldn’t do a half a thing. I said, ‘Well, I’ll need to pack it up.’ So, and apart from that there was a little things going on in the band that wasn’t right you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: All the best players were leaving and for various reasons you know I decided to be you know leave with them you know.
BT: Yes.
JT: But I had one [unclear] band.
BT: Yes.
JT: I used to love music and you were with people who also liked the music. But the dance band days were great. I mean.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Four or five of us in a little Austin 10 with a base in the top.
BT: Oh yeah.
JT: And the drums at the back, you know.
BT: Yeah.
JT: We had a wonderful time.
BT: Yes.
JT: When you come to think about it in those days we used to charge I think it was nine pounds for a five piece band. That included transport and amplification.
BT: Really? Yeah. Yeah.
JT: You can’t believe it.
BT: And for that you’d play —
JT: From eight ‘til twelve and we’d start at eight.
BT: Yeah.
JT: And you had ten minutes break. If we had any more than that there was trouble.
BT: Oh yes that’s all really.
JT: Yeah.
BT: Yeah. [unclear] night. Yeah.
JT: And we had to play everything you know.
BT: Oh yes. Yes.
JT: And then our orchestrations were that high.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Look at the box.
BT: [unclear] each if it was four hours really.
JT: That’s right. Yes.
BT: So it was quite —
JT: yeah, I mean, and you play a progressive barn dance, Empress tango.
BT: Yeah.
JT: You’ve got to go and play it.
BT: That’s right.
JT: Cheeky one steps coming to it one time and military two steps.
BT: Yeah.
JT: Which was the — modern. Foxtrots
BT: .Yeah.
JT: Quicksteps. Yeah. He’s had to do a lot.
BT: Yes. Yeah.
JT: And but all by music of course. I mean, I noticed today they don’t use music. They used the words, don’t they?
BT: Yeah.
JT: To say the words.
BT: Words. Yes.
JT: You look over at your guitar player in a band or a group, what you call them today.
BT: Yes.
JT: [unclear]
BT: A lot of them don’t go out to play a four hour stint do they?
JT: No.
BT: You know, they go out to do a set as my son calls it, don’t they?